EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 52, Issue 10 This issue's topics: Concert Sound Problems (3 messages) More on Sound Engineers... (2 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 05:49:53 GMT From: Matt Thallmayer Subject: Concert Sound Problems from: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive buckley@powdml.enet.dec.com wrote (in regards to a Dream Theater concert): : THE STAGE: : The band is playing on a much bigger stage now. Both Myung and Petrucci have : added an additional amplified stack on each side of their stage to the : backline. Myung and Petrucci are also both sporting new axes on this tour!! : (Bother very nice guitars ... they must be making some sort of cash now) Their : light show was AMAZING. They havd a *very* large set-up, and it was used very : well! In addition to a large set of lights at the front and back of the stage, : the bandhas their I&W backdrop, as well as a new "theater"-style curtain : hanging from the ceiling on stage. Their sound was PERFECT!!! I'm not : kidding you, from song one it was the clearest and best mixed I've heard to : date. They also were using a much larger PA system than before, and they must : have got some top pro sound engineer with them now, as the sound was absolutly : wonderful!! I wish I could say the same thing about their mix. I saw them here in Philly recently and was very disappointed with the sound. (It's not only them, though. Many other bands experience this.) It seems that ever since the "Disco" era sound engineers have been mixing from the drums on up (especially the snare). Then they push the gain until the PA overdrives. Drums don't seem to suffer from this (I guess because of their percussive nature--quick attack, little sustain) and also guitar. But, everything else does, especially vocals. Now, I prefer instrumental music, but, if you there is a vocalist I like to be able to understand what he or she is singing. Why does the snare have to be the loudest sound? This isn't dance music. So what do we end up with? Distorted, muddy vocals, loud drums, and over-powering guitar. (In this case, however, the guitar was hard to hear for the first few songs. Then, it was pushed up.) The keyboards were almost inaudible, even during the solos. This has happened more times than I can count. Why do enginners hate keyboards?? Also, the bass was so bassy that I couldn't make out individual notes. Even at the recent ELP concert there were problems. When they played the quiter sections or when one or two instruments played it was fine. But, when they all played loudly, the system was overdriven and the sound was muddy. Lake blew out his voice trying to sing over it. And the piano was so tinny, it sounded like fingernails on a blackboard. The only exceptions seem to be all electronic show such as: Tangerine Dream, Front 242, 808 State; or more mellow groups, such as: Shadowfax, Annie Haslem, Birsongs Of The Mesozoic, and Robert Fripp's Frippertronics. Now, don't get me wrong, I love loud music. I just don't like distorted, badly mixed sound. I believe there are two factors that cause this problem, with a third factor that only affects stadiums/arenas. FIRST, the engineers, themselves. To be a good live sound engineer, you must be both a producer (musical) and an engineer (technical). If someone has both these qualities or even just a producer's ear they can make more money as a record producer. And if they are good engineer they can do better working in a studio and not have to deal with the hassles of life on the road. Also, since they listen to loud, distorted music every night, I think they destroy their ability to hear well. Also, they might be technically oriented people who want to be involved with music, even if they are not musical themselves, so they become engineers. Or, they might be instrumentalists who did not succeed in music, and who have not learned to hear a band as a whole. Consequently, they have not learned to balance a mix properly. SECONDLY, the venue and/or the band does not have enough cabinets (or want to keep the number of cabs down to preserve sight lines and stage space) and/or enough amplifiers (or amps powerfull enough with low distortion specs). THIRDLY, in regards to stadiums/arenas. These buildings are designed for sporting events with many hard reflective surfaces to amplify the cheering crowds to enhace the sports experience. (You wouldn't want to see a game in an acoustically dead room, where all the sound is swallowed up.) So, the reverb of these buildings, along with the engineer trying to over-power the reverb, turns mixes into mud. Why can't we have buildings that are purpose-built for amplified electronic music instead of multi-purpose arenas, converted warehouses, converted movie theaters and playhouses, and bars/clubs? They build Opera Houses and Symphony Halls, don't they? And these have to be subsidized. Rock music makes ton of money, they should re-invest some of it. Mathias ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 22:04:46 EDT From: Derek Burney Subject: Re: Concert Sound Problems > > from: alt.rock-n-roll.metal.progressive > buckley@powdml.enet.dec.com wrote (in regards to a Dream Theater concert): > - stuff deleted for brevity > must > : have got some top pro sound engineer with them now, as the sound was > absolutly > : wonderful!! and then came this reply... > > I wish I could say the same thing about their mix. > I saw them here in Philly recently and was very disappointed with the > sound. (It's not only them, though. Many other bands experience this.) stuff deleted... > > Now, don't get me wrong, I love loud music. I just don't like distorted, > badly mixed sound. > Well-mixed or poorly-mixed is in the ear of the beholder... > I believe there are two factors that cause this problem, with a third > factor that only affects stadiums/arenas. > > FIRST, the engineers, themselves. To be a good live sound engineer, you > must be both a producer (musical) and an engineer (technical). If someone > has both these qualities or even just a producer's ear they can make > more money as a record producer. And if they are good engineer they A producer (used to mean record producer) is the last person you want behind the console. Granted, you must have an ear for the music but producers are there in the studio to give their input and feel to the music going to disk. In live situations, there is little room for creative input. A good ear is a must but I disagree that one has to be a record producer to be a live sound engineer. In fact, I consider it to be a detriment. > of life on the road. Also, since they listen to loud, distorted music > every night, I think they destroy their ability to hear well. Also, > they might be technically oriented people who want to be involved with > music, even if they are not musical themselves, so they become engineers. > Or, they might be instrumentalists who did not succeed in music, and who > have not learned to hear a band as a whole. Consequently, they have not > learned to balance a mix properly. Well, we now learn that sound guys are techies who want a piece of the action in spite of having no musical talent whgose ears are blown apart from listening to loud distorted music every night. I'm wondering where the author got such a large brush with which to paint all soundmen (and women). It so happens that sound checks are frequently done early in the afternoon and for a very short time in order to preserve our ears so that they can be fresh for the night's performance. Furthermore, rather than failing at some other musical field, the author may be surprised to learn that most soundmen have been just that for most of their careers and much prefer live mixing to being in a studio. > SECONDLY, the venue and/or the band does not have enough cabinets > (or want to keep the number of cabs down to preserve sight lines > and stage space) and/or enough amplifiers (or amps powerfull enough > with low distortion specs). It seems to me that some soundmen might actually know a thing or two about number of cabinets and power ratings on amps to be able to do a decent job, but then maybe they should have consulted with this gentleman first, just to be on the safe side. > THIRDLY, in regards to stadiums/arenas. These buildings are designed > for sporting events with many hard reflective surfaces to amplify > the cheering crowds to enhace the sports experience. (You wouldn't > want to see a game in an acoustically dead room, where all the sound > is swallowed up.) So, the reverb of these buildings, along with the > engineer trying to over-power the reverb, turns mixes into mud. I really have to wonder why an engineer would be trying to over-power the reverb when that is precisely the effect he is trying to avoid. I guess he just doesn't know any better! This third point however, is the only valid item in this note. The rooms chosen to house a live show are not designed with sound in mind and therefore present a formidable task for the soundman. The real problem is that different frequencies travel at different rates depending on the contents of the room and they also reflect differently everywhere so a piano that sounds tinny in one corner may be boomy in another. Also, and perhaps most importantly, some of the musicians on the stage are so deaf that they require extraordinary power from their monitors which the house soundman has to overcome in his mix. If fairness was ever an issue, rather than assuming that the soundman is a braindead idiot sitting behind a bunch of buttons, it might be wise, and closer to the truth to assume that perhaps the soundman has had years of training and is in fact doing the best job possible under the circumstances. It's worth noting that in this particular case, one writer thought the sound was terrific and the other thought it was terrible. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no way to please everybody! > Why can't we have buildings that are purpose-built for amplified > electronic music instead of multi-purpose arenas, converted > warehouses, converted movie theaters and playhouses, and bars/clubs? > They build Opera Houses and Symphony Halls, don't they? And these > have to be subsidized. Rock music makes ton of money, they should > re-invest some of it. Symphony Halls and Opera Houses are terrific for live shows but you only have to look at such halls the day after a rock concert to see why they are not used more frequently... Well, that's it for my diatribe, thanks for listening... Derek ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 03:41:10 -0400 From: Chris Gray Subject: Re: Concert Sound Problems Derek, thanks for rising to the defence of soundmen. I have a friend in Berlin who has worked at that job ever since we both left school (don't ask... OK, it was around the time of FZ's "Hot Rats" album). Just as you say, he enjoys the challenge of live work - and his ears are in just as good nick as mine, thanks. What we need is not rock concerts in symphony halls but venues with usable acoustics (optimised for rock???), which can be cleaned out with a fire hose in the morning. Ice rinks and gymnasia may fulfil the second require- ment, but the first... Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 05:45:36 -0400 From: "James M. Macknik" Subject: More on Sound Engineers... In reply to Derek -- You have some very valid points regarding not pidgeon-holing all sound engineers as tone-deaf neanderthals who are doing what they are doing cause they couldn't play the drums well enough to be IN the band. In an ideal world, a sound engineer would not be in the position s/he is in without the qualifications to adequately produce a quality live performance. In this theoretically utopian musical world, there would be halls specifically designed to perfectly accomodate every genre of music. Unfortunately, this world ain't ideal. You were correct in stating that distorted-bad music and good-loud music are in the ear of the beholder. However, this beholder has too often heard the former as the overall product in anything but the most professional of productions. I don't care to generalize about why this is true, but having viewed the rooms I've frequented, such distortion I have heard has not been necessary and has obviously been due to poor mixing. There are many bad engineers out there..as well as many good ones. The good ones, however, are difficult to find, in MY experience, and I would guess in the experience of many others. It is unfortunate and most often annoying, but in most but the most professional productions, a good engineer is difficult to find, and can be essential to the success or downfall of a band. In response to Matt and in support of Derek, many halls that are used for large live productions are extremely detrimental to the success of live music. This is NOT a fault of the engineers, and I believe that engineers do all they can with an impossible situation and should be commended. Derek is right, Symphony and Opera Houses would not take kindly to the mess that a live rock band performance would create. Many of these rooms would still not even satisfy the needs of a rock band, due to much of the dampening that is designed into the structure of these halls -- some of the important sound of a live band would be lost. What is needed are spaces designed for just this purpose. Matt is right in that this industry has a LOT of money floating around. The reason for this is the ability for big band to draw HUGE crowds when touring to big cities. This industry may have the money needed to build their halls, but try finding a city large enough to draw the crowds that has the space to build a hall big enough to handle them that doesn't already exist. Good luck. Some interesting problems discussed here regarding engineering/acoustic problems. I wish I had some ideas on some solutions. We'd all benefit from a little tayloring to our music tastes, but as Derek said, I guess you can't please everyone. Jim -- James M. Macknik Assistant to MicroComputer Specialists Junior - Connecticut College Department of Academic Computing New London, Connecticut Connecticut College Home (203)-439-3560 Work (203)-439-2354 BITNet: jmmac@conncoll.bitnet InterNet: jmmac@mvax.cc.conncoll.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 08:58:43 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Re: More on Sound Engineers... I think the reason opera and symphony groups have specialized halls for their use and rock concerts don't is that rock has evolved through the medium of recordings. The home venue of any rock group is the recording studio. When they perform live they are merely hoping to recreate as best as they can the sound of their recordings. Opera and symphony, on the other hand have evolved as live performance mediums. When they make recordings, they're trying as hard as they can to reproduce the sound of their live performances. So, essentially there can be no ideal live venue for rock concerts, because the production techniques of the recording studio have become an integral part of the music. Probably the most honest thing a rock group can do is to confer upon their sound engineers full membership in the group. What the sound engineer of a rock group does is not all that different from what a conductor does with an orchestra (imperfect analogy, of course. Orchestral conductors have much more personal inter- action with the musicians and play a much larger role in interpreting the music; but, in that they balance and shape the sound of the musicians without making any sound themselves, they have a similar function to the anonymous guy at the mixing console). --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************