EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 57, Issue 01 This issue's topics: 3 questions (11 messages) dsp lives (2 messages) NATURAL ORDER MUSIC (32 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 12:49:10 -0700 From: dv8 Subject: 3 questions 1. anyone know where I might find some *.cal source files. I have a few ideas of some I would like to write, but thought i'd see if there were any available. Uh... *.cal files are for Cakewalk's Application Language. 2.Anyone know of any good supplemental books for cakewalk (dealing with the Cakewalk Application Language specifically). 2. SOme time back on the Usenet Emusic group, there was a post about a fractal music generator of sort. It was released in Europe and the post would have been 4 months ago or so. If someone could point me towards the news group archive, that would be of great help. thanks a meg, dv8 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 12:42:22 -0500 From: brickman jonathan Subject: Re: 3 questions What in the world is a fractal music generator? It sounds intriguing. ||Jonathan E. Brickman brickman@acc.wuacc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 13:53:57 -0700 From: dv8 Subject: Re: 3 questions I guess the best way to explain it is to look at the analogy of a simple program that could generate a sentence by choosing from certain palates of words, putting those words into certain orders based on predetermined rules (grammar). The musical counterpart is, of course, much more complicated and fun. You could have palates of notes, chords, instrument voices, tempos, tempo changes, time signatures, and progressions or patterns of all of the above (i.e. a pallate of different guitar riffs or measures of notes). You could generate the numbers randomly that would choose these different components, but you would very likely end up with a total mis-mash of cacaphonous noise. So instead you might want to use a fracal equation that would leave you with a more symetrical arrangement. For instance, your note progessions might follow a pattern, that pattern would be echoed in the chord changes, whichh might also show up in velocity changes throughout the song. The program I read about used natural fractals to generate the 'patterns' in the music. It mentioned for example, the fractal that describes the nature of jet stream, fractals that describe the structure of a poplar tree, and even the fractal that describes the structure of the recumbant rna of the human immunodeficiency virus. To sum it up, you run this program (by know I may have just come up with enough ideas that I'm no longer talking about a real program) and choose from a menu what you want to use to buid a song. Say, your base fractal is the one that describes the structure of a fern. You choose a mellow pallet of tempo, and chord progressions, and let the engine flesh it out with actual notes and time signatures, and everything wls that goes into a bunch of noise that our minds translate as music. I'm very interested in weather[sic] or note you would end up with a bunch of crap, a bland musac sounding song, or a wonderful new form of music yet unheard. ANy ideas or feed back? Anyone familiar enough, or know someone who is, with music theory, fractals, or even programming to give some insight on the feasability of this whole thing? I'm runnig two low end midi keyboard in to a 386dx via a midi-pc interface card, and then out thru a pas 16bit stereo soundcard into my 125watt amp. I've been farirly succesful in using the pc to emulate the multi thousand dollar keyboards many people rave about. til later, dv8 - Kev On Tue, 12 Oct 1993, brickman jonathan wrote: > What in the world is a fractal music generator? It sounds intriguing. > ||Jonathan E. Brickman > brickman@acc.wuacc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:58:38 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: 3 questions >I'm very interested in weather[sic] or note you would end up with a bunch >of crap, a bland Muzak-sounding song, or a wonderful new form of music yet >unheard. Charles Dodge, "Earth's Magnetic Field", used variations in the strength of the geomagnetic field as the basis for composition. The result was intellectually interesting, but emotionally uninspiring (to me). Terenzi has done work with radiotelescope data, which I believe that Metlay has mentioned here before with less than a positive reaction. I think that this concept presents a lot of room for work, though. We have lots of stuff going on with visualization of late - the eye is probably the most dense data path that the human body posesses. However, the ear may have advantages in extracting patterns from a noisy background over time. It seems to, from my experience. Chaotic data (i.e., random data with near-repeating patterns) has only been well visualized in the past few years, with the advent of (relatively) cheap means of displaying the results of chaotic systems visually. The standard depiction of the Mandelbrot set, for instance, compresses the results of thousands of calculations into an easy-to-perceive whole. Mandelbrot's idea of how to depict the Mandelbrot set is as brilliant as the concept of the set itself. This method has been applied to the depiction of the behavior of many other chaotic systems, enabling them to be visualized easily. A similar breakthrough in the conversion of data to sound is yet to be done. Dodge's and Terenzi's work are steps in this direction, but as "audiazations" don't have the immediacy of the Mandelbrot and similar visualizations. The best way to describe this parallel is to note that after seeing the M-set, it is relatively simple to sketch it. It is difficult to hum or whistle a "tune" from either of the musical works mentioned above, or even to call it to mind. There is far less work being done in this area than in visualization, mostly because visualization is far better understood, and because, since the eye is such a high-bandwidth input stream, visualized images have a greater short-term impact, and therefrore thend to impress the viewer much more easily. And, as is well known, the more impressive your research is, the easier it is to get it funded. :-) --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 11:31:06 EDT From: Brian Good Subject: Re: 3 questions > > >I'm very interested in weather[sic] or note you would end up with a bunch > >of crap, a bland Muzak-sounding song, or a wonderful new form of music yet > >unheard. I think the answer to the above is "yes." The possibilities are so vast that I suspect all of these outcomes are likely. > Charles Dodge, "Earth's Magnetic Field", used variations in the strength of > the geomagnetic field as the basis for composition. The result was > intellectually interesting, but emotionally uninspiring (to me). Well, I kind of liked it, at least when considered as kind of proto-newage sonic wallpaper. If memory serves, it was mostly or entirely diatonic, which was why it was pretty accessible, but also pretty bland. > I think that this concept presents a lot of room for work, though. For several years I've been thinking about using Diffusion-Limited Aggregation as a generator for fractal music. I haven't come up with a means of independently mapping musical parameters that looks interesting and still wouldn't absolutely clog any MIDI device. And I think my employer would get cranky if I burned a lot of Cray time generating DLA clusters. brian good nasa lewis research center ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:17:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: 3 questions I have been experimenting with using naturally occuring amino-acid sequences (from relatively large peptides) as a basis for composition. About a month ago I started to sub divide the beta-lipotropin neurotropic units. I found some interesting looping symetry when I nested the met-enkephalin subunit inside the beta-endorphin subunit with the enkephalin coding velocity and the endorphin coding MIDI note number. The enkephalin subunit is a 5 amino acid chain, while the endorphin chain is 31 amino acids long (the first 5 of which are the enkephalin chain). Except for the rather bizarre time signature which evolved (I ended up adding a rest to the endorphin chain giving me a 32 note sequence), the velocity information occuring in 5 unit sequences added a tremendous degree of evolution since it takes so many iterations to divide out evenly. I was about to add a third subunit controlling filter frequency (alpha-endorphin which is a 16 amino acid chain) but I didn't get around to it. Same thing for using the alpha-MSH subunit to modulate syncopation. I did conclude, however, that there is something to this natural order stuff, and I will definately resume these experiments as soon as I can find the time. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 09:39:32 -0400 From: Bill Scott Subject: Re: 3 questions this from Joe McM: "A similar breakthrough in the conversion of data to sound is yet to be done. Dodge's and Terenzi's work are steps in this direction, but as "audiazations" don't have the immediacy of the Mandelbrot and similar visualizations. The best way to describe this parallel is to note that after seeing the M-set, it is relatively simple to sketch it. It is difficult to hum or whistle a "tune" from either of the musical works mentioned above, or even to call it to mind. " I think there are two dimensions of audiazation (there must be a better neologism - how about sonication) of chaotic systems that we need a sonic Mandelbrot to tackle. The first is the creation of sonic objects as sequential patterns relevant to the system. The visual analogy fails here because it would be like following the pixel generator during the creation of a fractal plot. The second (and related) problem is that the auditory system is a differentiating system with "simultaneous" data while the visual system is an integrating one. That is, when a block of sound is presented to the ear, the auditory system breaks it down into its component timbres--when a block of pixels is presented to the eye, the component pixels are integrated into composite patterns. Bill Scott WScott@acs.wooster.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:18:22 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: 3 questions >I think there are two dimensions of audiazation (there must be a better >neologism - how about sonication) of chaotic systems ... I've heard "sonification", which isn't *too* bad... >...that we need a >sonic Mandelbrot to tackle. The first is the creation of sonic objects as >sequential patterns relevant to the system. The visual analogy fails here >because it would be like following the pixel generator during the >creation of a fractal plot. The second (and related) problem is that >the auditory system is a differentiating system with "simultaneous" >data while the visual system is an integrating one.... Mm hmm. Yes. Peter Langston has done some interesting things with composition of pieces based on data input - e.g., a program which samples system activity and generates a drum solo based on the values of a number of parameters, which are assigned to different instruments; the higher the value, the more likely the instrument is playing on a given subdivision of the beat. He has also done something that composes and plays marches while they system is running OK; these stop when there is a system problem. I'll see if I can locate the reference for this stuff...it was in Unix Review a while back, I think (91, 92?). It's still not as information-dense as a really good visualization such as the exemplary one of wind motion in a thunderhead. What kind of data lends itself to sonification? My guess would be data which can be represented as a set of parallel lines of slowly-changing numbers; it's easier to detect changes in mostly stepwise data vs. data which changes violently (that is, data which has a relatively smooth first derivative). Also, if one has data which can be represented as a number of parameters all changing simultaneously, even if the first derivative were not smooth, one could transform it into chordal structures; perhaps the rate of change could be coded rhythmically? I have no firm ideas here; I'm just interested in what others think. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:33:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: 3 questions Actually, I think I coined the term ensonification when I was working on Navy sonar projects. That word ended up getting defined as being enveloped in a sound field (especially in water). The logiocal extension would have sonification meaning adding sound to a medium (especially water). John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 21:48:03 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: 3 questions >Actually, I think I coined the term ensonification when I was working on >Navy sonar projects. That word ended up getting defined as being enveloped >in a sound field (especially in water). The logiocal extension would have >sonification meaning adding sound to a medium (especially water). Sonification it is then. Adding sound to the data space as a medium of information dispersion. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 19:17:13 BST From: "Steven D. Bramson" Subject: Re: 3 Questions I went to an interesting conference on Mathematics and Music in Oxford about a year ago. There were two relevant demos (to this discussion). The first was some fractal music where choice of pitch was determined by an itterative mandelbrot style equation. The music sounded rather dull to me. A more effective demo was semi-random with a performance element. You could program the statistical probability of various intervals after a given starting note. You could also give it some idea of key and a vague "feel" to the piece. Then you let it go. The interesting thing was a microphone input into which you said "Yes Yes Yes" if you wanted more of the same or "No No No" if you didn't like what was coming out and you wanted it to try something else (sounds like a Freudian dream!) In practice, it was just a 1Khz filter looking for the hiss in Yesss or a deeper No sound. The results were very impressive, due I am sure in major part to the musicality of the program author. Steven D Bramson Data Management Group JET Joint Undertaking Abingdon Oxfordshire OX14 3EA United Kingdom E-mail sdb@jet.uk Voice 0235 465 013 Fax 0235 465 399 ------------------------------------------------------------------ JET is Europe's fusion research project Disclaimer: Any views expressed are mine and do not represent those of JET ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:41:21 EDT From: ronin Subject: dsp lives one more thought for the day... does csound have any point any more? cards are now available for well under $1000 (some around $500) that have varying degrees of dsp capability, up to and including multiple dsps acting under the control of a vesa buss master, with midi ports riding on the side. now, csound as i understand it is essentially a file-production engine. are its structures flexible enough to strip out and embed in a realtime dsp control application reasonably effectively? or should i just screw it and write my own stuff at this point? -----------< Cognitive Dissonance is a 20th Century Art Form >----------- Eric Harnden (Ronin) or The American University Physics Dept. 4400 Mass. Ave. NW, Washington, DC, 20016-8058 (202) 885-2748 (with Voice Mail) ---------------------< Join the Cognitive Dissidents >------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 18:13:17 GMT From: Rikhardur H Fridriksson Subject: Re: dsp lives > one more thought for the day... > does csound have any point any more? cards are now available for well > under $1000 (some around $500) that have varying degrees of dsp > capability, up to and including multiple dsps acting under the control > of a vesa buss master, with midi ports riding on the side. now, csound > as i understand it is essentially a file-production engine. are its > structures flexible enough to strip out and embed in a realtime dsp > control application reasonably effectively? or should i just screw it > and write my own stuff at this point? Like Jason Vantomme mentioned a couple of days ago (thank you Jason, for complimenting me), Csound CAN run in real-time, given a very powerful computer, but that's not the point. Using Csound for the types of real-time DSP you are probably talking about is like using a thermonuclear device to knock off a fly. The stuff that's being done with real-time DSP these days is very simple compared to what you can do with Csound. For example, I have yet to see a phase vocoder that works in anything close to real time. We are talking about two different things, so I guess you should start witing your own stuff at this point. Rikhardur H. Fridriksson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 12:41:11 LCL From: Michael Vitali Subject: NATURAL ORDER MUSIC John Rossi's experiments with amino acid sequences as a basis for composition interested me. How do you assign what the amino acids "mean" musically? With regard to pitch, rhythm, timbre, etc.? Are you simply treating the sequences as a code to be broken? How much manipulation do you allow yourself (e.g., the rest after the 31 amino acids)? I'm assuming that you're assigning the 31 amino acids equal rhythmic units (from the rest you added to make the number divisible by 4). Why? How is this form of composition (or one that uses the earth's magnetic field, for instance) different from transcription? Interesting stuff. michael.vitali@twty.chi.il.us ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:23:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: NATURAL ORDER MUSIC The pitch was determined by alphatebetical order and for simplicity I mapped the note numbers by frequency of occurrence in dorian mode (starting with middle C as the tonic) expectancy charts. The amplitude (velocity) were mapped with equal velocity quantization for each of the possible amino acids (the whole set of AAs, not just those appearing in beta-lipotropin) by mollecular weight. The heaviest amino gets the highest volume (which I think ended up mapping to 126). I'm not sure what I had intended for filter control but chemical complexity seems like a good choice. John ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 18:30:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: NATURAL ORDER MUSIC Oh yea, the reason for adding the rest was in case something interesting came of this (which it did), so I could actually play with it in a farmiliar time signature. Somehow, the prospect of playing in 31/8 or 31/4 would be a lot like mentally masturbating. Also, when you let these things develop from odd time signatures, they have a lot more tendency to sound like the crap that comes out of a lot of academic electronic music machines. John ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 16:15:40 GMT From: Peter Randolph Peters Subject: Re: NATURAL ORDER MUSIC Garbage in, garbage out! -- Randolph Peters prpeter@ccu.umanitoba.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 16:08:16 -0800 From: Mike Friesen Subject: Natural Order Music While in Boulder a few months back I picked up a CD of "relaxation music" which used data from the Voyager spacecraft. Six sources were somehow mapped onto timbres and recorded. Unfortunately, there was very little explanation of how the data was processed. As an experiment and a jaunt into mental exercise I have no problem with this sort of thing. However, I must express a certain cynicism with respect to the question of "relevance". When we translate data from one range or medium to another, how can we know that we are not violating the 'modality' of the original range? ((Here I wrote another 500 words on the subject, but discarded them when I began making highly impassioned and convincing arguments -- half of which contradicted each other. I'll just leave the question as it stands and see what happens)) Michael Friesen North Peace Secondary School Fort St. John, British Columbia, Canada Weeee... are the knights who say... MIDI!! ********************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 09:08:30 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Natural Order Music Mike Friesen's account of the CD he bought based on signals from space reminded me of the medieval concept of "music of the spheres". The medieval philosophers found in the orbits of planets ratios analogous to those used in musical tuning systems. For them it was just an abstract concept, something too divine to be heard by human ears. Now it turns out that the music of the spheres is nothing more than "relaxation music", something to put on in the background while going into a new-age trance. Seriously, though, I think the generation of "Natural order" music is going, at best, to only provide us with the raw material for music. Many musical compositions have imitated bird songs, but recordings of actual bird songs are of interest mainly to ornithologists. What we listen for in music, ultimately, is the presence of the human mind. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:56:28 EDT From: Brian Bynes Subject: Re: Natural Order Music Is it true that there are ratios in nature that exactly correspond to the ratios in the overtone series? I heard this was true somewhere. Does anyone have more details? ----------------------------- Brian Bynes (bbynes@aol.com) House Sound Engineer Centennial Hall The University of Arizona Tucson, Arizona ------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 12:14:17 PDT From: metlay Subject: Natural Order Music >Mike Friesen's account of the CD he bought based on signals from space >reminded me of the medieval concept of "music of the spheres". The >medieval philosophers found in the orbits of planets ratios analogous to >those used in musical tuning systems. For them it was just an abstract >concept, something too divine to be heard by human ears. Now it turns out >that the music of the spheres is nothing more than "relaxation music", >something to put on in the background while going into a new-age trance. > >Seriously, though, I think the generation of "Natural order" music is going, >at best, to only provide us with the raw material for music. Many musical >compositions have imitated bird songs, but recordings of actual bird songs >are of interest mainly to ornithologists. What we listen for in music, >ultimately, is the presence of the human mind. With a totally straight face and with absolutely NO malice or intent to start a fight, Mark, have you heard *ahem* DOCTOR Fiorella Terenzi's "Music Of the Galaxies"? It claims to utilize data from an particular extragalactic radio source as a basis. I'd like to hear what other people than I think of it, as my opinions of it are too emotionally charged to be objectively repeatable in this forum.... -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 09:39:26 -0400 From: Bill Scott Subject: Natural Order Music Bernie Krauss has a good idea regarding "natural" music. Rather than imitating natural processes, do what any species intruding on an evironment would do and complement what is already there, filling a niche. So, a full analysis of the ambient processes of the environment within which the music is to exist is used, rather than as a model to be resynthesized, as a definition of what will reflect and resonate with the music being composed. Taking this idea to the level of amino acid sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the (based on the) description of a successful virus. Bill Scott WScott@acs.wooster.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:01:08 EDT From: Mark s Subject: Natural Order Music Well, Mike Metlay! Gee, we haven't locked horns in ages. How time flies. Too bad there's nothing really very much to lock horns about. I said: "...I think the generation of "Natural order" music is going at best, to only provide us with the raw material for music.... ...What we listen for in music , ultimately, is the presence of the human mind". You said: "It claims to utilize data from an particular extragalactic radio source as a basis.... ...My opinions of it are too emotionally charged to be objectively repeatable in this forum." The operative word in your statement is *as a basis*. In other words the guy didn't just take raw data and plug it into a sequencer and let fly. He did something with it. He manipulated it until it became something that left you with an opinion too emotionally charged to repeat. That sounds like the presence of a human mind to me. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu Say, do you remember that old album Leonard Nimoy put out, called "Mr. Spock's music from outer space"? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:18:47 EDT From: Mark s Subject: Natural Order Music >... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >(based on the) description of a successful virus. I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 23:21:52 +0100 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Natural Order Music >It claims to utilize data from an particular >extragalactic radio source as a basis. Conversely, there's always that neat little Berlin-school album of the early 80's, GALAXIE CYGNUS-A by Robert Schroeder. There's recorded galaxy transmissions at the start and end of each section, and the rest of it is really tasteful VCS3 and PPG sweeps and melodic sections. I love it. It's recorded with a similar close reverb style to Schulze's DUNE title track, rather than washes of deep reverb; this close-reverb style is rather nice and I must try it sometime, once I've figured out how to achieve it. GALAXIE is a really "cosmic" album in the proper sense (good for late night on headphones), and almost matches up to the ultimate cosmic album (a French one, SPACE ART, by Perrier and Rizzitelli, a duo later to become more well-known as part of Jarre's live entourage). My LP of SPACE ART biodegraded over a decade ago. I'd kill for a decent copy. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1993 15:32:45 EDT From: Bill Fox Subject: Re: Natural Order Music Re Natural Order Music, Mike Metlay said: > ... have you heard *ahem* DOCTOR Fiorella Terenzi's > "Music Of the Galaxies"? It claims to utilize data from an particular > extragalactic radio source as a basis. Can you call this SPACE MUSIC? ;-} I'm sure I've see a previous post from Mike mentioning *Dr.* Terenzi, probably on the emusic discussion of people's faves. I'd like to hear this and Plunderphonics - still haven't run into either... Dan Barrett turned me on to Gibraltar, a progressive rock list. Raves over there for Anglagard's "Hybris" have piqued my curiosity about that one, too. Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:10:10 PDT From: metlay Subject: Natural Order Music >Well, Mike Metlay! Gee, we haven't locked horns in ages. How time flies. Mark! DARLING! I missed you.... >Too bad there's nothing really very much to lock horns about. True. Whose turn is it to say something aggravating and start a flamewar? But in the meantime.... >The operative word in your statement is *as a basis*. In other words the >guy didn't just take raw data and plug it into a sequencer and let fly. >He did something with it. He manipulated it until it became something >that left you with an opinion too emotionally charged to repeat. >That sounds like the presence of a human mind to me. Hurm. This point is true and valid; I guess the problem is that I relied too much on implications and not enough on clear statements of opinion. I'd better clarify my stance a bit, at the risk of offending people; I wasn't refuting what you had said, but was grasping at the Terenzi album as an example of what I considered WRONG with natural order-based music. It was a tangential observation, not a rebuttal, and that is the source of the confusion, I think. (Opinions follow; insert "IMO" after every sentence, please) Let's take a hard look at Dr. Terenzi's album, shall we? The music itself is the worst form of "bad;" it is unlistenable because it is utterly without interest. Every one of the songs on the CD is a formless, aimless meandering of squishy noises mixed with synthesizer bleeps and bloops. The radio signature of the galaxy in question has been compressed into the audio spectrum, and a great deal of its finer structure has been lost in the process, turning it into (essentially) filtered white noise that swooshes a lot. (I've got nothing against noise, but I prefer it to be *interesting* noise.) The only track that is any different is the last one, where the noise is mixed with other keyboard sounds, an attempt to mix acoustic and electronic sources that fails because it has no more structure than anything else. In the terms used by our esteemed Mr. Harrington, it is NOT something that I would ever care to bring home and play on my CD player for any reason at all, except to satisfy the curiosity of the many visitors I have from around the world who ask, "So is it really THAT bad?" So far, I haven't gotten a single request other than "skip to the next track" followed by "take it OFF". All right, so it has no emotional value. Does it have scientific value, or some academic-music premise overlaying it that makes it worthy of study? This is a tougher question, as research is never guaranteed to give good results every time (that's why it's research, no?). I suppose it does demonstrate that mapping radio waves into the audio spectrum gives us nothing of immediate interest; beyond that, I would be hard-pressed to see its value, but then I, like Jeff, have a hard time with a lot of the output of academic musicians these days. There is certainly nothing audially unique about galaxies; I have heard similar work with a great deal more emotion and excitement come from a box that produces nothing but feedback (David Myers of Arcane Device). So, no musical merit, and little obvious academic merit. Why then was it widely released and promoted in a manner seen by few, if any, recent academic music releases? Could it be that the notion of an astrophysicist doing music is novel enough to sell CDs? I'm a nuclear physicist, but I don't try to map Nilsson diagrams to note pitches and claim that there's a deeper meaning to the results. Maybe I'm missing out on something here. Could it be that the CD is regarded as being of educational value in a scientific sense? Possibly; the liner notes are rather nifty, and don't contain any glaring factual errors, but the astronomy taught therein is very flimsy, and has little or nothing to do with the music (although it's implied in places that it does). Could it be that the artist is not only a respected astrophysicist and a well-established academic musician, but also just happens to be a gorgeous young woman with no sense of false modesty about posing for promotional photos? Nah, couldn't be. How totally politically incorrect! I should be flogged for even suggesting that the record company could have had THAT on their minds. Sheesh. (end of opinion zone) Anyway, the point is that I react strongly to this particular CD because I feel that it has been overpromoted for the wrong reasons; if there IS something to music based on natural order series, it should be allowed to stand or fall on that basis, not buried under a combination of cheap glitz and novelty value. As people keep saying over and over again without apparent impact, it's supposed to be the MUSIC we're interested in, isn't it? And this CD, if put on a player and listened to with no foreknowledge of what it is, never fails to fall totally flat. I'd like to think more can be done than this.... >Say, do you remember that old album Leonard Nimoy put out, called >"Mr. Spock's music from outer space"? Remember it? My dear fellow, I HAVE a copy! My wife's Nimoy collection is almost comprehensive. Anyone got a copy of "The Two Sides of Leonard Nimoy" for sale? -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 10:11:48 PDT From: metlay Subject: Natural Order Music >>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >>(based on the) description of a successful virus. > >I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 13:54:38 EDT From: Bill Fox Subject: Natural Order Music >>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. >> >>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) > >Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a pair o' docs! Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 14:33:32 EDT From: Brian Good Subject: Natural Order Music > > >>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid > >>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the > >>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. > >> > >>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) > > > >Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) > > Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a > pair o' docs! This being a music list, why don't we agree right now to keep it contrapuntal? brian good ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 14:46:03 -0400 From: Bill Scott Subject: Natural Order Music >>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. >> >>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) > >Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) >Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a >pair o' docs! Can't antibody put a stop to this?! Bill Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:13:02 -0700 From: Mark Loomis Subject: Natural Order Music >>>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >>>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >>>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. >>> >>>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) >> >>Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) >>Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a >>pair o' docs! > >Can't antibody put a stop to this?! I'd take a 'shot' at it, but I'm on mutation this week... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 12:17:10 -0700 From: dv8 Subject: Natural Order Music On Fri, 22 Oct 1993, Mark Loomis wrote: > >>>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid > >>>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the > >>>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. > >>> > >>>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) > >> > >>Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) > >>Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a > >>pair o' docs! > > > >Can't antibody put a stop to this?! > > I'd take a 'shot' at it, but I'm on mutation this week... > Boy, this is starting to 'bug' me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1993 16:04:39 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Natural Order Music I see I got it all wrong. So, Dr. Terenzi really did take raw data and plug it into a sequencer and let it go at that. And people have been buying this? Heavens! (no pun intended this time) It must be the mystical appeal of the old "music of the spheres" concept. My wife says she used to have a copy of Mr. Spock's Music from Outer Space, and she was looking for it, unsuccessfully. It either disappeared down a black hole or she loaned it to somebody 20 years ago. --Mark Simon tip@cornellc.cit.cornell.eud ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 02:28:53 GMT From: Peter Randolph Peters Subject: Natural Order Music In article dv8 writes: >On Fri, 22 Oct 1993, Mark Loomis wrote: > >> >>>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >> >>>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >> >>>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. >> >>> >> >>>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) >> >> >> >>Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) >> >>Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a >> >>pair o' docs! >> > >> >Can't antibody put a stop to this?! >> >> I'd take a 'shot' at it, but I'm on mutation this week... >> >Boy, this is starting to 'bug' me. Would you guys stop interferon with the real business of this group? -- Randolph Peters prpeter@ccu.umanitoba.ca ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Oct 1993 01:00:02 -0500 From: Phil Somebody-or-another Subject: Natural Order Music Will the list staph get all upset over this? -phil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 13:22:07 BST From: "Steven D. Bramson" Subject: Natural Order Music Randolph Peters writes: >> >>>>... Taking this idea to the level of amino acid >> >>>>sequences, maybe the best music reflecting this analysis would be the >> >>>>(based on the) description of a successful virus. >> >>> >> >>>I bet that would be a really "catchy" tune. (groan, groan) >> >> >> >>Virus it necessary to inflict this pun on us? ;) >> >>Ben Casey met Kildare to discuss this. That's called a >> >>pair o' docs! >> > >> >Can't antibody put a stop to this?! >> >> I'd take a 'shot' at it, but I'm on mutation this week... >> >Boy, this is starting to 'bug' me. Would you guys stop interferon with the real business of this group? -------------------- Domestos! Steven Bramson sdb@jet.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 11:12:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Natural Order Music Well, at least AIDS isn't caused by a virus. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 11:18:52 EDT From: Mark Simon Subject: Natural Order Music I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns Oh mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!!!! --Mark Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 10:38:38 -0700 From: Mark Loomis Subject: Natural Order Music >From: Mark Simon > >I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns. While nearby apalling flies confuse me by darting the eternal rain for fun. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 14:18:39 -0400 From: Bill Scott Subject: Natural Order Music >I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns. >While nearby apalling flies confuse me by darting the eternal rain for fun. and nearly stalling spies obfuscate my charting internal pain. I'm glum! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1993 16:11:40 -0400 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Natural Order Music >>From: Mark Simon >> >>I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns. > >While nearby apalling flies confuse me by darting the eternal rain for fun. No, no, not a cascade! A limited amount of puns, okay, but please, no cascades! We have to have a *little* mercy on the folks who read this by mail. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 10:47:53 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Natural Order Music >>I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns. >>While nearby apalling flies confuse me by darting the eternal rain for fun. >and nearly stalling spies obfuscate my charting internal pain. I'm glum! Can someone get these Apple Newton users off this list please? Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:00:13 PDT From: metlay Subject: Natural Order Music >>>From: Mark Simon >>> >>>I hereby apologise profusely for starting this infernal chain of puns. >> >>While nearby apalling flies confuse me by darting the eternal rain for fun. > >No, no, not a cascade! A limited amount of puns, okay, but please, no cascades! >We have to have a *little* mercy on the folks who read this by mail. I hear the guy named Joe induce me toward parting with this under pain of guns? OW! OW! OKAY! OKAY! :-> -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 09:02:17 PDT From: metlay Subject: Natural Order Music >I see I got it all wrong. So, Dr. Terenzi really did take raw data and >plug it into a sequencer and let it go at that. And people have been >buying this? Heavens! (no pun intended this time) Weeeeeeelllll, not EXACTLY. The data she retrieved is not in the audio spectrum. It had to be compressed somehow in order to be heard. If there's interest, I will be glad to type her liner notes in for people to peruse. >My wife says she used to have a copy of Mr. Spock's Music from Outer >Space, and she was looking for it, unsuccessfully. It either disappeared >down a black hole or she loaned it to somebody 20 years ago. What is it about people's wives and obscure records? My wife is still kicking herself for losing her copy of THE PROGRAMMED MAN.... -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************