EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 58, Issue 01 This issue's topics: I think we're talking minimal here... Non-keyboard performances (22 messages) Non-keyboards: Buchla Lightning (14 messages) Virtual Mixing Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon <>. mcmahon@clark.netYou may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 19:28:27 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: I think we're talking minimal here... I traded in the WS EX keyboard for the A/D a few weeks ago, and took in the D-70 for servicing at the same time. The engineer managed to dislodge the D-70's battery, and since D-70's keep part of their OS in battery-backed RAM, it powered up again in Japanese. I believe it's speaking English again now, but is now waiting on a replacement contact strip from Roland. The upshot of all this is that it looks as if I might be facing a dance/theatre performance in three weeks without a keyboard. I could arrange to borrow one from the store without any hassle, but it just occurred to me just now: I've been trying to get more minimal in music and soundscaping for ages. What better way than to not use a keyboard? The Lexicon MRC is a decent, robust hand-held MIDI controller which will do all sorts of MIDI processing and takes footswitches. The MTP-II and WS A/D both take pedals. And I have the MAX beat sync library up and running, so wave sequence sync, arpeggiation, whatever is easy to do. So I think it's going to be the MRC, a MAX PowerBook and the 6U rack with the two Wavestations, LXP-1 and LXP-5. It makes transportation easier: no keyboard flight case, no Apex to carry around. And I think it'll make an interesting statement: with keyboards, the audience always assumes played notes, and that everything else is "pre-recorded." If I'm standing on stage holding an MRC, it removes a lot of the preconceptions. I'm starting to like this idea. Anyone have comments or experiences on non-keyboard performance? If you'll excuse me, I've now got to get back to my MAX session and program up some chords... Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:48:54 AST From: Alan Edwards Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... > The upshot of all this is that it looks as if I might be facing a > dance/theatre performance in three weeks without a keyboard. I could > arrange to borrow one from the store without any hassle, but it just > occurred to me just now: I've been trying to get more minimal in music and > soundscaping for ages. What better way than to not use a keyboard? Good for you ! You will be a _real_ synthesist yet, in the Buchla/EMS "what do keyboards have to do with synthesizers?" style. > And I think it'll make an interesting statement: > with keyboards, the audience always assumes played notes, and that > everything else is "pre-recorded." If I'm standing on stage holding an MRC, > it removes a lot of the preconceptions. hmm, don't know about that... "If he don't have a keyboard where is the music coming from?" "must be recorded..." "wots he doing then?" "ahhh...running the mixer" "why is the sound-man on stage? ..etc > I'm starting to like this idea. Anyone have comments or experiences on > non-keyboard performance? I have performed without keyboards (pads, laser harp etc.) and think it is great. (actually there were keyboards there, but I wasn't touching them) Often the keyboard is a limitation. I have been working on some soundscapes for the local theatre company, and have been using the keyboard to trigger sounds, which I then shape using several pedals and real-time controllers (all my pitch-benders and mod-wheels remapped...) I am having a great time, and have been thinking about getting the Peavey set of sliders to give me more. I hope that it has some buttons to trigger the sounds... I say go for it. change some attitudes. real synthesists don't use keys... Alan Edwards ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:59:01 AST From: Alan Edwards Subject: Re: Non-keyboard Performances Bill Fox writes: > So Nick's temprarily keyboardless. Well, earlier this year, I saw > Buchla perform a piece on his Lightnig controller. [...] Finally the performer > was playing AIR and still getting the same themes as when the piece began! > playing air as in air-guitar ? (or air-lightning in this case...) so... was it live or memorex? Alan Edwards ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 15:36:25 EST From: Bill Fox Subject: Non-keyboard Performances So Nick's temprarily keyboardless. Well, earlier this year, I saw Buchla perform a piece on his Lightnig controller. Only the audience didn't know it because there were percussion instruments in front of the performer. These instruments were apparently being played. But slowly, one by one, a "thief" removed the percussion instruments while the performer continued playing; without ill effect. Finally the performer was playing AIR and still getting the same themes as when the piece began! Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 14:56:35 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... Nick Rothwell writes: > The upshot of all this is that it looks as if I might be facing a > dance/theatre performance in three weeks without a keyboard. I could > arrange to borrow one from the store without any hassle, but it just > occurred to me just now: I've been trying to get more minimal in music and > soundscaping for ages. What better way than to not use a keyboard? The > Lexicon MRC is a decent, robust hand-held MIDI controller which will do all > sorts of MIDI processing and takes footswitches. The MTP-II and WS A/D both > take pedals. And I have the MAX beat sync library up and running, so wave > sequence sync, arpeggiation, whatever is easy to do. So I think it's going > to be the MRC, a MAX PowerBook and the 6U rack with the two Wavestations, > LXP-1 and LXP-5. It makes transportation easier: no keyboard flight case, > no Apex to carry around. And I think it'll make an interesting statement: > with keyboards, the audience always assumes played notes, and that > everything else is "pre-recorded." If I'm standing on stage holding an MRC, > it removes a lot of the preconceptions. > > I'm starting to like this idea. Anyone have comments or experiences on > non-keyboard performance? When on stage with a keyboard and a lot of music is created, audiences have a habit of assuming it's largely pre-recorded. For that matter i've caught a couple of small acts missing to sync their motions with their canned music. Now, if you are up there with a MRC and a couple of pedals, i'd say that most people will assume that you are just a kind of dj, mixin canned elements together. I personally like the idea of wave-sequences and MAX, it carries that image of the human conductor to a computer orchestra, but i wonder how much audiences appreciate the technological aspects and the involved complexity. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 13:01:50 -0800 From: Michael O'Hara Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... Non keyboard performance is a good thing. (as long as there is some OTHER entertainment value) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 14:04:59 -0700 From: john krikawa Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... rothwell sez: >occurred to me just now: I've been trying to get more minimal in music and >soundscaping for ages. What better way than to not use a keyboard? The >Lexicon MRC is a decent, robust hand-held MIDI controller which will do all >sorts of MIDI processing and takes footswitches. The MTP-II and WS A/D both >take pedals. And I have the MAX beat sync library up and running, so wave >sequence sync, arpeggiation, whatever is easy to do. So I think it's going >to be the MRC, a MAX PowerBook and the 6U rack with the two Wavestations, >LXP-1 and LXP-5. It makes transportation easier: no keyboard flight case, >no Apex to carry around. And I think it'll make an interesting statement: >with keyboards, the audience always assumes played notes, and that >everything else is "pre-recorded." If I'm standing on stage holding an MRC, >it removes a lot of the preconceptions. RIGHT ON! That sounds very hip, I must say. It would be a MAXimum debut. Since I take it alot of your music is trigger oriented, what a perfect way to test alternative triggering (besides groping on the keyboard). There are probably a slew of other devices which might integrate with MAX as well (anyone know?), voltage trigger->MIDI devices? I can just imagine Rothwell writhing on the floor with a wireless box as wild european dancers gyrate around him with electric charges spitting off in the background, powerbooks aflame.......I better stop, I'm killing myself :o().....how funny. Can you give us any info on your MAX beat library? How does that work? It sounds cool. You must have alot of guts to do this sort of work. I admire it. _ -john ___ __/ | ___ | | JKrikawa@CCIT.Arizona.Edu | |___ ________ \______/ \__________ Tucson, AZ ___../\./\/ \____/ \____ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 14:30:38 -0700 From: john krikawa Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... Nick Rothwell writes about the keyboardless performance. Arne Claassen replies: >When on stage with a keyboard and a lot of music is created, audiences have >a habit of assuming it's largely pre-recorded. For that matter i've caught >a couple of small acts missing to sync their motions with their canned >music. I hate that, it's so tacky. >Now, if you are up there with a MRC and a couple of pedals, i'd say that >most people will assume that you are just a kind of dj, mixin canned >elements together. I personally like the idea of wave-sequences and MAX, >it carries that image of the human conductor to a computer orchestra, but >i wonder how much audiences appreciate the technological aspects and the >involved complexity. That's a very good point. Maybe the audiences Nick gets are tuned into what he is doing and *do* appreciate it, though. I've heard of a device that is like a conductor's wand that can transmit either MIDI data or time code (don't know which): If it transmits MIDI data, Nick or the troupe could use it as a triggering device so that the appearance would not seem canned. Of course, we wouldn't want the dancers tripping over cords now would we? I guess alot of the "canned" vs."*really* live" feeling to be derived from such perfomances would depend largely on how Nick choreographs his work. Nick, do you do all the choreography or is it team work? Do you always work with the same dancers? I'm sure some very strong performances can be made even with the MRC as long as the element/act of triggering is at least made partly known to the audience through aspects of the performance. _ -john ___ __/ | ___ | | JKrikawa@CCIT.Arizona.Edu | |___ ________ \______/ \__________ Tucson, AZ ___../\./\/ \____/ \____ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 17:07:34 -0500 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >The upshot of all this is that it looks as if I might be facing a >dance/theatre performance in three weeks without a keyboard. I could >arrange to borrow one from the store without any hassle, but it just >occurred to me just now: I've been trying to get more minimal in music and >soundscaping for ages. What better way than to not use a keyboard? The idea is interesting, if you think you can come up with the necessary performance technique and software in less than a week or so. I'd personally want to get a good bit of practice under my belt before going on stage with it. >And I think it'll make an interesting statement: >with keyboards, the audience always assumes played notes, and that >everything else is "pre-recorded." If I'm standing on stage holding an MRC, >it removes a lot of the preconceptions. I agree that it will kind of imply that you're just mixing the sounds unless you've got *very* fine control over things from the MRC, so much so that it's obvious that you are "playing" it and not "operating" it. You may have to exaggerate your controlling movements somewhat if you want to communicate that you are indeed doing things in realtime. I've forgotten, do you still have that wind controller you were either thinking about or had a while back? You wouldn't have to necessarily play it, just use it as a triggering device. In fact, anything that can supply a MIDI trigger is usable - you might want to see if you can borrow a drum-pad machine of some type as well. Sliders with one hand, drum machine with the other, footpedals, maybe the wind controller... much more visual, I think. Heck, you could probably set up the wind controller so it was clamped on a stand, and you could touch the keys without blowing into it at all. There's a mind-bending sight, playing an instrument in a completely non-intuitive fashion - sort of like using a sax as a drun kit. Also on the non-intuitive front, if you can play the MRC without looking at the display, you could even *wear* it. Strap it to your chest or your arm. Obviously, the Hands or a dataglove or the Thunder or Lightning would really make this kind of performace even more visually memorable. But hey, it's better to start low-budget on an experiment. --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 01:37:15 GMT From: Thomas S Wilson Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... I can barely picture what is actually going on here... but is sounds a bit Laurie Anderson-ish... You should come do a performance here in Starkville Mississippi - Mecca of culture! -- ||| Scott Wilson ||| "Paradise is exactly like where ||| . . wilson@ee.msstate.edu . . you are right now, only much, . . _ "office": (601)325-2220 _ MUCH better -Laurie Anderson _ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 16:20:32 -0500 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Interactor - Was: Buchla's Lightning Well, I've been thinking about either MAX or Interactor for some things I've been thinking about for a while. Tell me about Interactor, Jeff. What does it do well, what does it do not so well? --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 23:39:36 -0500 From: Sam Safran Subject: Interactor Interator sounds very intereswting. How can one obtain a copy? Is there at least a demo verion available for the MAC via ftp? Sam Safran ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 13:17:46 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >(as long as there is some OTHER entertainment value) Dancers? Will that do? Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 08:57:13 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: Interactor > > Interator sounds very intereswting. How can one obtain a copy? Is there > at least a demo verion available for the MAC via ftp? > > Sam Safran > No demo - you can get it from Dr. T's for about $250. Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 09:26:37 EST From: Bill Fox Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... John Krikawa mentioned: > ... I've heard of a device that is > like a conductor's wand that can transmit either MIDI data or time code... Could that be Max Mathews's Radio-Drum? Joe McMahon notes: > I agree that it will kind of imply that you're just mixing the sounds > unless you've got *very* fine control over things from the MRC, so much so > that it's obvious that you are "playing" it and not "operating" it. You may > have to exaggerate your controlling movements somewhat if you want to > communicate that you are indeed doing things in realtime. What if Nick put down his controller and the music stops, then starts up when he starts playing again? Just like a "real" instrument! > (as long as there is some OTHER entertainment value) < Dancers? Will that do? Floats my boat! Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 10:00:13 -0800 From: Michael O'Hara Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >Dancers? Will that do? Yes, that is the kind of thing I was talking about. Speaking from my oown experience, I thought it was rather lame, me and my cohorts standing behind racks of synths, with 90% of the playing being done via MIDI. It always struck me as being dishonest. A drummer and a bass player were added, and a couple of dancers. It added some entertainment value. So we didn't have to lie about things anymore.. (In fact, hearing some of the new music, I wish I was still with them) :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:05:51 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >"If he don't have a keyboard where is the music coming from?" >"must be recorded..." >"wots he doing then?" >"ahhh...running the mixer" That's a good point; thanks for pointing it out. I guess I'd better be controlling more than volume (sliders controlling pitch/timbral content are important). >I am >having a great time, and have been thinking about getting the Peavey >set of sliders to give me more. I've just ordered one of those, partly on a whim. Looks like a nice piece of gear and the reviews I checked were positive, and Peavey seem to be making quality products these days. It has 16 sliders, 16 buttons and an alpha dial at least. Downside: only one MIDI output, so I'll still need to remap via MAX to get at more than one cable in the rig (although the live rig is currently only on one cable, gosh). Why not do it all in MAX? Well, I think the physical surface is important, and I want also to make the thing modeless for each major section of music: much less risk of getting things wrong. Having some smarts in the box itself demarcates things nicely. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:05:53 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >Since I take it alot of your music is trigger oriented, what a perfect way to >test alternative triggering (besides groping on the keyboard). A lot of my music is fairly conventional: harmonic, orchestrated, keyboard-based. I want to get to grips with some forms of minimalism (atmospherics and timbre) without falling into the usual trap of harmonising and orchestrating all over it, so the lack of a keyboard is probably a good thing. (The music store called me last week, asking if I could perhaps tell them how to fix the D-70. I don't think I'm going to get it back in a functional state for a while.) >I can just imagine Rothwell writhing on the floor with a wireless box as >wild european dancers gyrate around him with electric charges spitting off >in the background, powerbooks aflame....... CASSIEL doesn't do Hawkwind retrospectives. >Can you give us any info on your MAX beat library? MAX provides timers (milliseconds) but nothing to lock to beat sync. So I've built some tools to do so. It provides something like Performer's chunk layout mechanism, with relocatable slave objects, counters and so on. >You must have a lot of guts to do this sort of work. No, just stubbornness. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:05:56 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >Nick, do you do all >the choreography or is it team work? I sometimes do overall artistic direction but don't choreograph to any degree of detail; just bits and pieces here and there sometimes. >Do you always work with the same dancers? That depends how we get on. >I'm sure some very strong performances can be made even with the MRC as long >as the element/act of triggering is at least made partly known to the audience >through aspects of the performance. Well, if Phil Jeck can do it with two Dansette record players... Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:06:03 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >I'd >personally want to get a good bit of practice under my belt before going on >stage with it. I'm going to keep it as simple and modeless as possible, so that shouldn't be too critical. >I've forgotten, do you still have that wind controller you were either >thinking about or had a while back? That went ages ago. I never felt comfortable with the thing, and was also given a run-around by the dealer for months. Never had a manual for it. >Also on the non-intuitive front, if you can play the MRC without looking at >the display, you could even *wear* it. Strap it to your chest or your arm. Getting a bit cyber here I think. You'll be suggesting that I wear the Gargoyles next. (In which case, I'd *have* to be able to use the MRC without looking at it, since I wouldn't even be able to see the thing.) I've ordered a Peavey PC1600 because it has a lot of sliders/buttons and can hence be modeless; with the MCR (four physical sliders, eight virtual sliders, four buttons) there would be a lot of mode changes and stuff, which is more hassle on-stage. >Obviously, the Hands or a dataglove or the Thunder or Lightning would >really make this kind of performace even more visually memorable. But hey, >it's better to start low-budget on an experiment. Agreed. The only one of these things which appeals to me is the Thunder, as a static controller (I'd love to try one); the other stuff is far too Californian for my tastes... Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:06:17 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >Speaking from my oown experience, I thought it was rather lame, me and >my cohorts standing behind racks of synths, with 90% of the playing being >done via MIDI. That's a different matter: the fact that, in keyboard-dominated music, the usual division, when playing live, is between notes being played one-to-one by keys being held, versus "everything else." This might well be a consequence of taking studio-recorded, (virtual) multitracked music and trying to go on stage with it. This is why I'm just using MAX for live work: I can break down the barrier between fixed backing tracks and fixed notes-played-live. And it means I don't take studio pieces and try to perform them; I'm pushing to minimalism to build organic stuff which is performable from the start, that being one of the "design constraints" for the pieces. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 11:41:37 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... > This is why I'm just using MAX for live work: I can break down the barrier > between fixed backing tracks and fixed notes-played-live. And it means I > don't take studio pieces and try to perform them; I'm pushing to minimalism > to build organic stuff which is performable from the start, that being one > of the "design constraints" for the pieces. The fixed note playing of complex keyboard based music requires (at least for my stuff) more agility than i have and about three times the band members, half of which will be bored to death playing backing tracks. Do you use Max for sequence generation, so to say, or do you use it to sync and trigger wave-sequences on the ADs? Wavesequences seem like little sequencers that can transpose and adjsut tracks of pre-generated sequences by playing different chords, hence less fixed note playing and more adaptive sequencing. Is that impression about right? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1993 16:20:51 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: I think we're talking minimal here... >The fixed note playing of complex keyboard based music requires (at least >for my stuff) more agility than i have and about three times the band >members, half of which will be bored to death playing backing tracks. That's part of the issue, though the real problem is conceiving tracks for recording or studio and then trying to do them live. That results in complex arrangements for too many hands. In the middle of watching a Gill Clarke choreographed postmodern dance performance I suddenly realised that I needed to simplify instead, and create music according to the tools I'd be using live. Seems to work so far. The live rig is two Wavestation racks and the two Lexicons (LXP-1 and LXP-5). Add PowerBook, MAX and a Peavey faderbox and that should be about it. >Do you use Max for sequence generation, so to say, or do you use it to >sync and trigger wave-sequences on the ADs? Mostly the latter at the moment, although the sequence objects I implemented will do either; in fact, there isn't a distinction, since the sequence objects provide multiple control points and beat sync is transmitted globally via the MIDI Time Piece anyway. (Yes, I'm still using one of the MTP's at present. It still buggers SysEx.) >Wavesequences seem like little >sequencers that can transpose and adjsut tracks of pre-generated sequences >by playing different chords, hence less fixed note playing and more >adaptive sequencing. Is that impression about right? Pretty much. One problem is that wave sequences start when the key goes down, not "on the beat" since there isn't one, so my MAX code is responsible for lining them up, amongst other things. Nick Rothwell | cassiel@cassiel.demon.co.uk CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance | cassiel@cix.compulink.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:11:26 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances > > So Nick's temprarily keyboardless. Well, earlier this year, I saw > Buchla perform a piece on his Lightnig controller. Only the audience > didn't know it because there were percussion instruments in front of the > performer. These instruments were apparently being played. But slowly, > one by one, a "thief" removed the percussion instruments while the > performer continued playing; without ill effect. Finally the performer > was playing AIR and still getting the same themes as when the piece began! > > Bill Fox > Hmm.. no value judgement intended but how long has he been doing this piece? :) I hope he writes something else which demonstrates what can be done with the thing someday. We spent a couple of days experimenting with Lightning at the Atlantic Center for the Arts in January. We set it up in my "cabana." Still couldn't get it to play a steady beat. So, we gave up :(. Woody Vasulka - one of the founders of the Kitchen was hopin' to use it to trigger his rotating in 3D video camera. Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:48:17 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances Ok, i'll display my complete ignorance: What is this Buchla's Lightning thing, that's being mentioned a lot. Curiosity killed the human... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:49:59 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances > > Ok, i'll display my complete ignorance: > > What is this Buchla's Lightning thing, that's being mentioned a lot. > > Curiosity killed the human... > Whatever... (Hope I can remember accurately - ahem - we spent a lot of time at the beach at ACA). January - can you blame us? I think Mort and Joan were getting kind of pissed, though. It's a box which has two sensors (infared?) which are wands and can be positioned a fair amount apart. The two sensors establish a set of fields in space which are attacked and trigger MIDI events. The Lightning box is easily re-programmed to send whatever MIDI signals you want. We set the thing up in my room with about 5 feet separating them. Established the fields and tried to accurately trigger a series of quarter notes. We just couldn't hit the fields with any accuracy. Woody Vasulka (one of the founders of the Kitchen) was trying to get the thing to trigger a Hi-8 video camera on a 3D gyroscopic mount. It could be positioned to point anywhere in 3D space controlled by MIDI events. His ultimate project was to establish a linkage between a virtual reality space (with a virtual model of the same camera in imaginary space) with real space (with the real camera). The things run around $1,000.00. Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 11:31:17 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances > It's a box which has two sensors (infared?) which are wands and can be > positioned a fair amount apart. The two sensors establish a set of fields in > space which are attacked and trigger MIDI events. The Lightning box is easily > re-programmed to send whatever MIDI signals you want. We set the thing up in > my room with about 5 feet separating them. Established the fields and tried > to accurately trigger a series of quarter notes. We just couldn't hit the > fields with any accuracy. Sounds like i'd be better off with a dataglove... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:49:45 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances > > > It's a box which has two sensors (infared?) which are wands and can be > > positioned a fair amount apart. The two sensors establish a set of fields in > > space which are attacked and trigger MIDI events. The Lightning box is easily > > re-programmed to send whatever MIDI signals you want. We set the thing up in > > my room with about 5 feet separating them. Established the fields and tried > > to accurately trigger a series of quarter notes. We just couldn't hit the > > fields with any accuracy. > > Sounds like i'd be better off with a dataglove... > We did quite a bit of work with Mark Caniglio's midiglove at ACA, too. It was basically a leather glove with some type of flexible resistors attached with rubber bands to each finger. Five sensors and a wrist sensor, total. The sensors feed into Mark's MidiDancer radio control box so that it could be used on stage in a "remote" manner. Donna McCabe and I implemented a program using Mark's Interactor program (great MIDI programming tool - totally underrated IMHO - - much easier to use than Max for timing performance issues) which would allow the user to skip to various parts of a sequence depending on hand motions. Jon Christopher Nelson implemented a very interesting musical tool with the glove which allowed him to specify a random entry point into a circular chord progression (circular in that the end and beginning were the same) or a series of random bursts of pitches or both and to control the density of same. It was musically quite effective. Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 11:58:52 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning > We did quite a bit of work with Mark Caniglio's midiglove at ACA, too. It was > basically a leather glove with some type of flexible resistors attached with > rubber bands to each finger. Five sensors and a wrist sensor, total. The > sensors feed into Mark's MidiDancer radio control box so that it could be used > on stage in a "remote" manner. > > Donna McCabe and I implemented a program using Mark's Interactor program > (great MIDI programming tool - totally underrated IMHO - > - much easier to use than Max for timing performance issues) which would > allow the user to skip to various parts of a sequence depending on hand > motions. > > Jon Christopher Nelson implemented a very interesting musical tool with the > glove which allowed him to specify a random entry point into a circular chord > progression (circular in that the end and beginning were the same) or a series > of random bursts of pitches or both and to control the density of same. It > was musically quite effective. Hm, could you give more info on this Interactor program you mentioned? Also, when i was referring to a Dataglove, i was thinking more along the lines of a VR glove, i.e. trigger mechanisms for each finger plus three continuous controllers for the three spacial axis'. I believe that there are MAX objects in the public domain utilizing a cheap version of a dataglove, the Powerglove for something like this.. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 16:31:38 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning > > Hm, could you give more info on this Interactor program you mentioned? > Interactor is an icon-based language (meaning that linkages of icons comprise the language statements) for the Mac. It was developed by Mort Subotnick and Mark Caniglio primarily for tempo-following; was later expanded into a full blown MIDI language. A simple tempo following sequence play back prog can be written with less than 5 icons - and it really works. The basic principle behind the tempo following paradigm is that you don't really need the entire score in memory to follow a score for tempo purposes, look at an orchestra - you just need cues. By establishing tests for selected MIDI data at certain times or in certain MIDI contexts further events can be triggered. Mort demonstrated a Interactor program which played the left hand chords for the Debussy prelude - "Girl with the Flaxen Hair." It waited for, say, the g3 after the repeated b2 c1 b2 c1 (I'm just making these pitches up!) before going on to the next chord. It was amazingly musical. Accompanying chords would match the dynamics of the melodic performance as specified. >From my limited understanding of it and and from talking to the other participants at the ACA Interactor Workshop (see Computer Music Journal latest issue in the back for a review by Donna McCabe) Interactor can do anything Max can do with less programming effort. > Also, when i was referring to a Dataglove, i was thinking more along the lines > of a VR glove, i.e. trigger mechanisms for each finger plus three continuous > controllers for the three spacial axis'. I believe that there are MAX objects > in the public domain utilizing a cheap version of a dataglove, the Powerglove > for something like this.. > Mark's glove could only supply relative hand and finger positions, not hand location in real space. Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 19:42:43 -0800 From: "R. Fahl" Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances You mentioned Interactor. I've heard this name before. Could you tell me a little more about it? What platform does it run on? -- ms20 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:01:45 CST From: John Eichenseer Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 3 Nov 1993 to 4 Nov 1993 >We set the thing up in >my room with about 5 feet separating them. Established the fields and tried >to accurately trigger a series of quarter notes. We just couldn't hit the >fields with any accuracy. Hmm, interesting. My friend James McCartney is using Lightening these days; I saw him perform a pice where he was playing very precise rhythms on a virual xylophone in front of him. He said it was a piece of cake; maybe there was something wrong with your sytstem... >The things run around $1,000.00. I thought it was more like $1500, directly from Buchla. >Also, when i was referring to a Dataglove, i was thinking more along the lines >of a VR glove, i.e. trigger mechanisms for each finger plus three continuous >controllers for the three spacial axis'. I believe that there are MAX objects >in the public domain utilizing a cheap version of a dataglove, the Powerglove >for something like this.. There is a MAX object that translates glove info coming in a serial port. However, you need a hardware interface for the glove, called the Gold Brick. I am not sure if the company that makes these is still around; I can scrounge for details. In fact, I should - I have a Mattel glove, a Mac, and MAX.... >From my limited understanding of it and and from talking to the other >participants at the ACA Interactor Workshop (see Computer Music Journal >latest issue in the back for a review by Donna McCabe) Interactor can do >anything Max can do with less programming effort. Oh, I don't know about that :-). I think that there are certain things that Interactor can do better, and certain things that MAX can do better. In fact, I would say that MAX can do some things which are more or less impossible in Interactor (data structure manipulation and complex routing). I am pretty sure you could code up any Interactor functionality with Max - especially since Max is C extensible. However, it might be difficult. Interactor's interface is much better suited for some things (event-based score following, obviously). However, I think it is largely to blame for Interactor's commercial failure thus far; the interface was designed pretty much for score following, and I found it generally unintuitive to do other things with it. The MAX interface is much more intuitive and general, I think. As well, when I was developing stuff in Interactor, I found it difficult to figure out why things were not happening the way I wanted them to. With MAX, debugging is as easy as attaching message boxes and buttons wherever you want to watch the data. I'm sure Mark made Interactor look easy, though... :-) This is all just my opinion, obviously. I think I am very picky about interfaces. It's been a while since I played with Interactor; this is from memory. Anyway, check out Interactor if you get the chance; it is a very interesting and different program, and might turn you on. I think that Dr. T's distributes it these days; their number is (617) 455-1454. regards, jhno ....... . . .. . . . . . . . . Joh n E i c h e n s e e r D e l i c a t e E a r (512) 458-6474 eichen@trilogy.com . . . . . . . .. . .... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:14:34 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 3 Nov 1993 to 4 Nov 1993 > > >We set the thing up in > >my room with about 5 feet separating them. Established the fields and tried > >to accurately trigger a series of quarter notes. We just couldn't hit the > >fields with any accuracy. > > Hmm, interesting. My friend James McCartney is using Lightening these days; > I saw him perform a pice where he was playing very precise rhythms on a > virual xylophone in front of him. He said it was a piece of cake; maybe > there was something wrong with your sytstem... > Could have been defective... :( > >The things run around $1,000.00. > > I thought it was more like $1500, directly from Buchla. > Well this was Woody Vasulka's price from Don... > >Also, when i was referring to a Dataglove, i was thinking more along the lines > >of a VR glove, i.e. trigger mechanisms for each finger plus three continuous > >controllers for the three spacial axis'. I believe that there are MAX objects > >in the public domain utilizing a cheap version of a dataglove, the Powerglove > >for something like this.. > > There is a MAX object that translates glove info coming in a serial port. > However, you need a hardware interface for the glove, called the Gold > Brick. I am not sure if the company that makes these is still around; I can > scrounge for details. In fact, I should - I have a Mattel glove, a Mac, and > MAX.... > > Interactor's interface is much better suited for some things (event-based > score following, obviously). However, I think it is largely to blame for > Interactor's commercial failure thus far; the interface was designed pretty > much for score following, and I found it generally unintuitive to do other > things with it. The MAX interface is much more intuitive and general, I > think. As well, when I was developing stuff in Interactor, I found it > difficult to figure out why things were not happening the way I wanted them > to. With MAX, debugging is as easy as attaching message boxes and buttons > wherever you want to watch the data. > > I'm sure Mark made Interactor look easy, though... :-) > Exactly - we had a full blown week's class with Mark and then the rest of the month to experiment. > This is all just my opinion, obviously. I think I am very picky about > interfaces. It's been a while since I played with Interactor; this is from > memory. > I don't even have a Mac - so I'm writin' from memory, too - from January and a lot of sun - someday... Jeff Harrington idealord@dorsai.dorsai.org ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:32:22 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances >> Sounds like i'd be better off with a dataglove... > >We did quite a bit of work with Mark Caniglio's midiglove at ACA, too. It was >basically a leather glove with some type of flexible resistors attached with >rubber bands to each finger. Five sensors and a wrist sensor, total. The >sensors feed into Mark's MidiDancer radio control box so that it could be used >on stage in a "remote" manner. This is not the same beastie as the JPL dataglove at the MIT Media Lab, is it? I picked my nose with that one once.... Ever the iconoclast, metlay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 11:36:30 PST From: metlay Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning >> Also, when i was referring to a Dataglove, i was thinking more along the lines >> of a VR glove, i.e. trigger mechanisms for each finger plus three continuous >> controllers for the three spacial axis'. I believe that there are MAX objects >> in the public domain utilizing a cheap version of a dataglove, the Powerglove >> for something like this.. >> > >Mark's glove could only supply relative hand and finger positions, not >hand location in real space. Hmm, the JPL dataglove had a sensor for location in space, and Michel Waisvicz' "HAnds" utilized sonar sensors to detect how far apart they were from one another. The consensus seems to be that adding such sensors gives you a lot more parameters to control but requires rigid discipline of the body's motion and position. You're used to moving your hand in a certain way, but to do so while maintaining a certain distance from a fixed object is tougher. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Four styles, four variants, no brains...it's everything you need!" "I've worked with dancers like that." (e. hallgrimsson and n. rothwell) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 16:00:11 -0500 From: idealord Subject: Re: Buchla's Lightning - Was Re: Non-keyboard Performances > > >> Sounds like i'd be better off with a dataglove... > > > >We did quite a bit of work with Mark Caniglio's midiglove at ACA, too. It was > >basically a leather glove with some type of flexible resistors attached with > >rubber bands to each finger. Five sensors and a wrist sensor, total. The > >sensors feed into Mark's MidiDancer radio control box so that it could be used > >on stage in a "remote" manner. > > This is not the same beastie as the JPL dataglove at the MIT Media Lab, is it? Nah... :) but it played one on... Mark was actually pretty secretive about the source for these resistor strips. They were pretty cool; they come in rolls and you could basically cover your whole bod with them and attach them to the radio control box. With regards to the glove - it was a total hack and we were always re-arranging the strips as they fell off. He was supposed to sell us copies of them for around $300? but we figured out that the PowerGlove/GoldBrick combo would be more cost effective and - ahem - stabler... :) > I picked my nose with that one once.... > It's probably dried and flaked off by now... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 22:20:59 AST From: Howard Harawitz Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 4 Nov 1993 to 5 Nov 1993 Does anyone know if there is anything like MAX or INTERACTOR for the PC? For that matter, is there any kind of alogrithmic composer available for PCs (with or without Windows)? Taking this still further... is there any kind of music software other than sequencers available for PCs. I used to use an Atari because of the software available for it (Dr. T's stuff including a neat algorithmic composer by Jim Johnson; Turbosynth; Notator; M, etc.), but Atari Corp's support for users and dealers in North America has been non-existent. When I decided (about 3 or 4 years ago) I needed a hard drive and more memory ) I found that our local Atari dealer had closed. Before too long, even Atari Canada had vanished. Since I teach Computer Technology on PC's, I decided that I would use one for music. However, I was, and still am, disappointed at the lack of really interesting software. Certainly, there are some good sequencers (e.g., Cakewalk for Windows; Cubase) But where are the programs like 'Max','M' and 'Turbosynth' for the PC? There are reportedly more than 100 million PCs out there (here?). Why are the creative giants among us not writing some exciting music software for them? ( Probably because they're making megabucks writing business software! :-) ) Oh, well... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 10:49:13 -0600 From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Virtual Mixing While we're on the subject of unconventional MIDI controllers, did anyone read the article in (i believe) MIX, about the U Texas project of a virtual mixing control. I didn't get to read it, but was told about it. As much as i understand it consisted of some larger workstation for the VR work, a dataglove, some sort of visual display device and a Mac with protools. What it was was a vitual mixing console for large scale PA work. The sound engineer could walk around the entire arean, and if the sound wasn't to his liking, he'd turn on the eye-piece (sort of like the Apache eye-piece) and could manipulate a virtual mxing console with the data glove. It all sounded very neat for tech-heads, and a lot more space-saving than carrying around a 32 channel digital console... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- |Arne F. Claassen | | | | "It is by my will alone I set my mind in motion" | | finger for PGP public key | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- . ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************