EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 58, Issue 04 This issue's topics: VCR/VHS for Mastering? (18 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:07:44 -0500 From: Jon Crystal Subject: VCR/VHS for Mastering? Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)? If so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)? I may need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes. Jon Crystal University of Vermont 357 Waterman Burlington, VT 05405 email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 13:19:36 -0800 From: Richard Clingman Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? I have a 8-channel Fostex/Studio3/OpcodeVision system (all synchronized together). Up until about a year ago, I would cut individual master cassettes on a so-so Sony cassette deck. Then I bought a new Sony VHS Hi-Fi deck and began mastering on it. The results are nothing less than terrific. I am totally happy with the setup. About the only thing I wish it had were separate meters, controls and inputs for the 2 digital channels and the 2 analog channels (even though it hasn't really turned out to be a problem). The 2 meters on the Sony have a huge fudge factor - I found that I could consistently light up the overload LEDs without any distortion. And the playback is SOOOOO CLEAN! When recording VHS Hi-Fi, you are recording video signal as well. So I point a camera at my computer screen. This gives me a visual record of the time code, song title, sequence portion that is playing (ie: intro, verse1, chorus, etc). It works great for cueing when you are cutting dubs. Don't know about flying erase heads. They WOULD create fairly seamless edits which might allow you to put several songs together without any glitchy stuff in between. The Sony has them so I don't know what it would be like without them. Your question has me wondering about whether the song itself could be sliced and diced. Might be interesting to try if you had a playback deck that could synchronize along with the VHS Hi-Fi deck so that your edit point was precise. My Sony is not synchronized in any way. I just put it into record and hit play on my 8-channel Fostex. My sequencer chase-locks to the Fostex and I'm MIXING. If I screw up I rewind the whole lot and try again. So I say, do it, you will not regret it! Oh yeah, it also records video real nice ;-) > > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of > using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)? If > so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)? I may > need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be > cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes. > > > Jon Crystal > University of Vermont > 357 Waterman > Burlington, VT 05405 > email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu > -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Clingman,Sr.Training Developer | I want to put a small video in a ADP Dealer Services; Portland, Oregon | window here in my signature!!! (503) 294-4200 ext. 2419 | OK, I'll settle for a small audio email: richard@plaza.ds.adp.com | playback!!! OK, I'll settle fo ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:39:24 -0500 From: Dean Keith Subject: Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? >Super Beta will give you a better picture. The audio is about the same >quality as VHS. But we all kmow how common Beta machines are... > >Bill Fox I use a Sony Super Beta Hi-Fi unti for mastering, and It's GREAT! It has seperate left and right input adjustments, and the VU is pretty accurate, though you CAN push it way into the red without audible distortion, but sicne it has very VERY little tape noise, I don't push it to the max. It even has an "Audio Only" mode in which no video is recorded; and Beta is a superior video machiene than VHS too. Though I think that Sony is using some of their Beta technology in the newer VHS machines they make. I think it's too bad that Beta didn't catch on here in the US simply because Sony was out marketed by the Companies that wouldn't pay them for rights to use their patents. Oh well I guess it's mostly Sony's over inflated ego that caused it. ______________________________________________________________________________ Dean Keith dkeith@tarleton.edu Tarleton State University Stephenville, Texas, USA ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:42:26 EST From: Bill Fox Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? Jon Crystal asks: > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of > using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)? Go for it! Pros: 1. It's the best analog audio recording medium available to the consumer market. 2. Up to six hours recording time if needed. But it is better to use it at its fastest speed to minimize dropouts. 3. Does double duty as a video unit. (Duh!) 4. Many people have them and connect them to their stereos. Great if you need to play it at a friend's or producer's home. Cons: 1. Just you try and edit it! 2. Most machines don't have volume controls. 3. Metering for the audio section might not be robust. NOTE: Because VCRs aren't geared towards audio only use, 2 and 3 are prevalent. I still haven't figured out how to OPTIMALLY set recording levels. Maybe if I had some distortion measuring gear I could increase levels until a certain distortion level is reached. Comments? 4. Not everybody has one and some who do don't have them connected to their stereo. Makes it hard to have the universal portability of the analog cassette. Super Beta will give you a better picture. The audio is about the same quality as VHS. But we all kmow how common Beta machines are... Bill Fox ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 03:49:40 EST From: Paul Pizzi Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost > strategy of using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes > (non-professional use)? I don't see the point... Why buying a stereo-digital audio VCR when today you can have a good DAT machine AND a mono VCR for much less? In addition to being more convenient, DAT machines provide far better audio quality, random search capabilities and digital I/Os. Take the Tascam DA30, for example. You can purchase this truly professional machine (XLR analog inputs, AES/EBU digital I/Os *without* the annoying SCMS) for around $900 and a basic VCR for $200. As far as I know a VCR with manageable digital audio features is way more expensive than the sum of the two. I remember when I owned a SONY F601 some ten years ago. I was using a VCR as a digital storage: what a nightmare! It took 4-5 minutes just to search for the beginning of a selection. Not to mention technica l problems like dropouts, strange clicks etc... =============================== S S S PAOLO PIZZI S S Time El apsed Art Music S S Los Angeles - U.S.A. S S S S-----------------------------S S S S email: S S pizzip@aol.com S S pizzi@delphi.com S S 72772.234@compuserve.com S S S =============================== - Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 10:11:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? The notion that DAT + Mono-VHS is cheaper than VHS-HiFi is idiotic. While perfectly good Hi-Fi VCR at K-Mart can be had for about $350, I am unaware of any DAT machine which actually sells for less than $450 or so. Also, Mr. Pizzi is incorrect about SCMS on the DA-30. First of all, in a stock DA-30 SCMS is fully implemented. That is, anything which comes in the digital side causes the flag to be set. This disables making copies, just as in any other SCMS based machine. However, the DA-30 does allow the SCMS to be defeated by making a simple hardware modification to the main circuit board. While this is a simpel modification, it does require that the machine be opened up and that minor surgery be performed. Additionally, while the modification disables the SCMS serial copy management for DA-30 recordings, it does not stop the DA-30 from reacting to SCMS flags in material recorded from other DATs. For example, if you have a 'consumer' portable DAT and you make a digital copy from the DA-30 to the portable, the DA-30 will still respect the SCMS added by the portable. While this is not totally defeating, ti still can be a pain in the ass. Don't get me wrong, I love my DA-30, it is just not what Mr. Pizzi describes. John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 09:43:15 -0500 From: Bill Scott Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? One great vhs machine is the Toshiba DX900 which not only records in HIFI but also records stereo (14 bit) PCM on the video track. It will play 16 bit PCM recorded VHS. All in all it has 5 channels: 2 PCM, 2 HIFI, and one mono. The video is high end too, including digital freeze of TV, etc. Too bad they stopped making them, but they might be out there used. Bill Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 16:51:49 EST From: Paul Pizzi Subject: VCR/VHS for Mastering? > The notion that DAT + Mono-VHS is cheaper than VHS-HiFi is > idiotic. mmmm...sounds like the same gentleman that likes quarreling all the time with me. OK, let me explain for this person, obviously is so eager to attack people as not to fully read messages before replying. I was talking about *DIGITAL AUDIO* VCR and not analog hi-fi VCRs, that makes a BIG difference in price. I hope it's clear now. > Also, Mr. Pizzi is incorrect about SCMS on the DA-30. First of all, > in a stock DA-30 SCMS is fully implemented. I stated, and I repeat it as a proud owner of a DA30, that SCMS is NOT implemented on the AES-EBU port whereas it is on the SPDIF. Evidently my very unpolite friend only fumbles with consumer digital ports and is totally unaware of what his machine can do in the (professional) digital realm. So I repeat again for the sake of people that have difficulties in understanding plain english that if someone wants DIGITAL quality for his/her master a Digital audio-VCR is a poor choice because it DOES cost more than a DAT+VCR. And to conclude let me point out a couple of imprecisions of my nervous friend: > While perfectly good Hi-Fi VCR at K-Mart can be had for about $350 I got a Sharp, 4head, stereo-hifi at Target for $250, admittedly on sale but if you look around it's not difficult to beat $350 for that item. > I am unaware of any DAT machine which actually sells for less than $450 A friend of mine got a portable SONY at a clearance sale here in L.A. for $400 (new!). I guess if you don't care about the latest model you can find some of these bargains around. So, my dear John, chill off and try to add some substantial contribution to this list instead of whining like a baby with your pointless controversies. === ============================ S S S PAOL O PIZZI S S Time Elapsed Art Music S S Los Angeles - U.S.A. S S S S-----------------------------S S S S email: S S pizzip@aol.com S S pizzi@delphi.com S S 72772.234@compuse rve.com S S S =============================== - Patria est ubicumque est bene (Pacuvius) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1993 23:26:32 GMT From: Stephen Schow Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? Bill Scott (WSCOTT@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU) wrote: : One great vhs machine is the Toshiba DX900 which not only records in : HIFI but also records stereo (14 bit) PCM on the video track. It will : play 16 bit PCM recorded VHS. All in all it has 5 channels: 2 PCM, : 2 HIFI, and one mono. The video is high end too, including digital : freeze of TV, etc. Too bad they stopped making them, but they might : be out there used. : Bill Scott Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping track of where on the tape my songs are? One person suggested using a video camara and pointing it at the computer screen. Unfortunately I don't own a video camera. It can be a real pain in the butt to locate a song with out a number to index on. You could get some idea by resetting the tape counter to 0000 before recording anything and then writing down where they are on the tape. This would work somewhat. I'm looking for even better solutions. An ideas? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Steve Schow | But you don't need to use the claw, if you sjs@netcom.com | pick the pear with the big paw paw...... (415) 354-4908 | Have I given you a clue......? | - Baloo the Bear ------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1993 10:04:39 -0500 From: Bill Scott Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? re:"Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping track of where on the tape my songs are? One person suggested using a video camara and pointing it at the computer screen. Unfortunately I don't own a video camera. " ______ High end VCRs such as the Toshiba PCM I described have a marking function that, when implemented, can find each spot on the tape where recording was initiated. All you have to do is start recording before each song and fast forward or rewind will take you to the mark afterward. Bill Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 14:38:23 -0500 From: Dean Keith Subject: Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? >Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping >track of where on the tape my songs are? One person suggested using a video >camara and pointing it at the computer screen. Unfortunately I don't own >a video camera. Sure, just put in your audio, and also put video in from your TV's tuner. Then set it to a different channel for each song (or mix). Then when you fast forward, you will see the video change for the next part. If you have 2 VCRs you can even put a "video" with the song, though there will be no way to syncronize the video. ______________________________________________________________________________ Dean Keith dkeith@tarleton.edu Tarleton State University Stephenville, Texas, USA ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 13:23:06 -0800 From: Richard Clingman Subject: Re: Reply to Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? > > >Anyone know good techniques when using a VCR for mastering to help in keeping > >track of where on the tape my songs are? One person suggested using a video > >camara and pointing it at the computer screen. Unfortunately I don't own > >a video camera. > > Sure, just put in your audio, and also put video in from your TV's tuner. Then > set it to a different channel for each song (or mix). Then when you fast > forward, you will see the video change for the next part. If you have 2 VCRs > you can even put a "video" with the song, though there will be no way to > syncronize the video. > > Dean Keith > dkeith@tarleton.edu > Tarleton State University > Stephenville, Texas, USA Good VERY LOW COST idea depending on your VCR. On mine if I switch in the tuner input, my audio line ins also switch. Maybe something could be done using audio dub but I think you'd have to have the video pre-recorded in that case. Just a thought. I'm the guy who suggested using a video camera (incidentally, I don't own one either, but I have a good friend who does and I can borrow it anytime!!!!) A medium cost possibility that I've been considering is getting one of those "My First Sony" video etch-a-sketch units. I've seen them new for around $90.00 It would allow you to build a nice screen full of relevant information. I haven't looked at one up close so I don't know whether it puts out a line level video signal or RF (you know, tune to Channel 3). Line level video is preferred! -- ____________________________________________________________________________ Richard Clingman,Sr.Training Developer | I want to put a small video in a ADP Dealer Services; Portland, Oregon | window here in my signature!!! (503) 294-4200 ext. 2419 | OK, I'll settle for a small audio email: richard@plaza.ds.adp.com | playback!!! OK, I'll settle fo ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 14:24:48 +0000 From: Simon Kunath Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? In article <9311021907.AA157795@moose.uvm.edu> jcrystal@MOOSE.UVM.EDU writes: > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of > using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)? If > so, what configuration is desirable (i.e. flying erase heads, etc)? I may > need to replace an old mono VCR soon, and thought it might be > cost-effective to do so with a unit which could serve multiple purposes. > > > Jon Crystal > University of Vermont > 357 Waterman > Burlington, VT 05405 > email: jcrystal@moose.uvm.edu > Ihave been using Nicam stereo VCRs for three years or so to master onto without a problem.Don't expect any close editing,as in DAT players it takes second or two to go into record,however the low cost of tape & length are great,3 hrs for $4-8 !!! Work out how many cd length pieces you can get on that. --Try to get a VCR with indexing facilities,as finding thing can be a problem. Also great for making timed recordings from Radio etc,get the full concert/play etc... email me if if you're stuck. -- Simon Kunath @ Unstable Sounds --Sussex.Uk. "Determined Indeterminacy !" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 19:47:37 -0800 From: "R. Fahl" Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? What's the sound quality of HiFi VCRs like? I read that it's not as good as DAT, largely because it's actually an analog signal, but that it's as good as high end cassette decks. What would you compare it to. -- ms20@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:21:51 EST From: The Radio Gnome Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? Hi, I've found hi-fi VCRs to be very high quality as far as sound goes, near CD and certainly better that analog cassette. the drawbacks are: larger media, tricky tracking at SLP speed, lack of meters/level controls on most recorders and built in signal processing that you can't defeat (like compression or 'hyperbass'). I use mine twice a week to archive late nite radio programs. The only alternative being a $1000+ 10" reel to reel with an outboard timer, or one of those klugey carousel cassette decks. Andy Wing Big Brother isn't watching you, your watching Big Brother, all 181 channels. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:03:00 EDT From: John Rossi III Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? VHS HiFi, compares very favorably to 1/4" half-track 15ips analog tape with dBx-I processing in all but one spec. Because of the modulation process involved with getting the audio signal into the helical video signal, a low level high frequency buzz is generated. It is down pretty low and is masked by almost any audio signal, but it is there and it does rear its head when, for example, dead space occurs. At any rate, the buzz floor is a lot lower than any cassette noise floor, and as a recording medium VHS-HiFi is very much suoerior to any analog cassette format. John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 16:22:36 EST From: Bill Fox Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? On Tuesday, 16 Nov 1993, R. Fahl wrote: > What's the sound quality of HiFi VCRs like? I read that it's not as good > as DAT, largely because it's actually an analog signal, but that it's as > good as high end cassette decks. What would you compare it to. On Tuesday, November 2, I said: > Jon Crystal asks: > > Does anyone have experience with/advice regarding the low-cost strategy of > > using a HiFi VHS deck for mastering purposes (non-professional use)? > > Go for it! > Pros: 1. It's the best analog audio recording medium available to the > consumer market. And I thought that *I* was getting senile! ;^) Foxy /\ /\ / \------/ \ / \ ( ) \ / \ / \__\ /__/ \ / \/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 20:37:02 -0800 From: "R. Fahl" Subject: Re: VCR/VHS for Mastering? On Wed, 17 Nov 1993, John Rossi III wrote: > VHS HiFi, compares very favorably to 1/4" half-track 15ips analog tape with > dBx-I processing in all but one spec. Because of the modulation process > involved with getting the audio signal into the helical video signal, a low > level high frequency buzz is generated. It is down pretty low and is masked > by almost any audio signal, but it is there and it does rear its head when, > for example, dead space occurs. At any rate, the buzz floor is a lot lower > than any cassette noise floor, and as a recording medium VHS-HiFi is very > much suoerior to any analog cassette format. > This is sounding pretty good. My partner and I are getting separate studios, so I'm losing mastering capabilities (DAT) as well as video. Looks like this is a good way to kill two birds with one stone. Tweet tweet ;-) - Romeo -- ms20@u.washington.edu ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************