EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 60, Issue 17 This issue's topics: Sorry to ask, but . . . (6 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 17:02:36 EST From: "Jason E. Geistweidt" Subject: Sorry to ask, but . . . Does true randomness really exist. My prfessor (aesthetics class) states that "Mozart's symphonies were to be played the same way everytime they were played. " now, this is virtually impossible if you take into account the possibilities like temperature, etc. Anyway, I'm thinking that the composers score is like an algorithm that the instruments play through. So, cut to the chase, man: If I write a mathematical formula to say create a random track in this new piece of mine, am i creating randomness: Better yet, can one create randomness ? Afterall, isn't the randomness i've created bound by the parameters of my formula? I guess i need a good definition of randomness. What about virtual randomness? just had to get that off my brain, any takers? Jason E. Geistweidt [ "Alas! An ill fated philosophy leads to an The American University [ ill fated religion!" -- S. T. Coleridge jg8602a@american.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 1994 21:57:13 -0400 From: "ANDREW G. YOUNGER" Subject: Re: Sorry to ask, but . . . >Does true randomness really exist. My prfessor (aesthetics class) states that >"Mozart's symphonies were to be played the same way everytime they were played. >" now, this is virtually impossible if you take into account the possibilities >like temperature, etc. Anyway, I'm thinking that the composers score is like >an algorithm that the instruments play through. So, cut to the chase, man: The symphonies as I see it were written with a sound and performance in mind, however this is not to say that the composers wanted them performed the same way each time. What happened to interpretation? Needless to say the composer is going to be the most picky conductor, but even he/she would perform it differently each and every time. >If I write a mathematical formula to say create a random track in this new >piece of mine, am i creating randomness: Better yet, can one create randomness >? Afterall, isn't the randomness i've created bound by the parameters of my >formula? I guess i need a good definition of randomness. Mathematical randomness is not true randomness, however the less variables you select and decide to control, the closer you get to randomness. >What about virtual randomness? What about it? In this sense virtual randomness is found in the same sense as mathematical psuedo randomness. >just had to get that off my brain, any takers? If you are really interested you should read up on fractals, and infinite number theory. Yes there is more then one infinite number. >Jason E. Geistweidt [ "Alas! An ill fated philosophy leads to an >The American University [ ill fated religion!" -- S. T. Coleridge >jg8602a@american.edu Andrew Younger Dalhousie University, Marine Biology Dept. AYOUNGER@ac.dal.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 06:26:26 -0500 From: "Joseph D. McMahon" Subject: Re: Sorry to ask, but . . . > If I write a mathematical formula to say create a random track in this new > piece of mine, am i creating randomness? Pseudo-randomness, from a philosophical and mathematical standpoint. >From an esthetic standpoint, it's probably close enough. > Better yet, can one create randomness? Afterall, isn't the randomness > i've created bound by the parameters of my > formula? I guess i need a good definition of randomness. Don Knuth spends a large portion of his book on "Seminumerical Algorithms" on exactly that. He came up with several tests to use to analyze a set of numbers for randomness. > > What about virtual randomness? > Well, I suppose you mean that in the same sense that you meant "virtual identity". In that sense, most "random" number generators meet the test; i.e., the correlation between sets of numbers approaches that of white noise as a limit. Now, on generating "real randomness": there are certainly a lot of ways to do that. One is to make the performance space ill-defined (this is the way that Cage did it a lot): Make a score from a piece of paper left out in the rain and play the wet places. Make a up a complex series of conflicting rule and let the player decide what to obey and what to ignore (a little less random). Hook up a level sensor to an FM radio tuned between stations and let the detected instantaneous signal changes generate your random numbers. Use an old Geiger counter and let it detect random cosmic-ray events. Of course, the concept of recording "random" events and incorporating them into a sequence, which will then faithfully recreate the exact same sequence of events every time, leads us into deep waters. Can something which can be accurately reproduced said to be "random" anymore? --- Joe M. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 11:39:30 EST From: David Lunney Subject: Re: Sorry to ask, but . . . John Geistweidt wants to know if randomness exists. Yes, Virginia, there is a random Santa Claus. First, generating random sequences of notes is possible in any high level computer language, all of which have random number generators. Most random-number algorithms produce pseudo-random sequences, so they must be "seeded" to make them truly random. Or, you can generate random sequences by flipping coins, drawing cards, or using tables of random digits (such things actually exist). In Nature, not only does randomness exist, but also chaos: many natural processes are completely unpredictable because they are extremely sensitive to minute changes in initial conditions. Meteorologists like say that a butterfly landing in Toronto can cause tornados in Texas. Turbulent flow of a liquid is an example of utterly chaotic behavior. Mother Nature throws us yet another curve with quantum mechanics: the locations of particles in small systems (like electrons in atoms) cannot be described exactly or measured exactly: if we want to measure the location of a particle EXACTLY along the x-direction its momentum along the x axis becomes totally indeterminate. Here's an old physics joke about chaotic systems: Famous 19th-century physicist is dying; he is attended by his best friend, another physicist. The friend asks, "What's the first thing you're going to ask God when you get to heaven?" The dying man says, "I'm going to ask him to explain turbulence." The friend says, "Don't bother. He won't understand it, either." PS: If John will contact me directly, I will send him a short Pascal program which generates a random sequence of MIDI notes. My version drives the Sound Blaster, but the note numbers and durations can be written into a disk file and played on some other kind of machine. (This thing is strictly monophonic: it makes only one note at a time.) David Lunney Department of Chemistry and Science Institute for the Disabled East Carolina University Greenvlle, NC 27858 USA VOICE: 919-757-6713 919-758-6453 FAX: 919-757-6210 CHLUNNEY@ECUVM1.BITNET CHLUNNEY@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:58:13 -0500 From: DEMOLITION MAN Subject: Re: Sorry to ask, but . . . Onemight say that chaos theory governs meteorology, but one cannot say that it is entirely unpredictable. If it were possible to observe all the events lea ding up to a storm...i.e. the initial conditions, it would then be possible to predict the final conditions...i.e. the storm. Our flaw lies in that we cannot monitor the events closely enough at his time. This does not nessecarily lead to the conclusion that it is random or chaotic. Secondly, one cannot generate a truly random number. If one took the number of grains in a handful of sand, divided by Mattinglys bating average, and multiplied by the time of day etc etc ad nauseum, one might say that we have a fairly random number. The problem is that, in this simple system (and, in more complex ones, in the case of complicated alogrithms) is that order always finds a way in. For example, observe the above case. If the time of day happened to be midnight..i.e. 00:00:00, we have introduced a zero into the calculations, which will repeated throughout. I have never believed in random number tables...you pick a number off the table to use, so it is no longer random. However, all of this makes very little difference in the scheme of things. Most "random" nmbers are random enough for our purposes. In any case, I recently read an interesting article on how Nasa was doingh some interesting things with radio noise from space. Also, there is considerable debate as to wheher Hawking radiation from black holes is random (some say this violates the laws of thermodynamics, but that is another thing entirely). Phil sps5251@siena.bitnet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 18:56:19 GMT From: Keith Hedger Subject: Re: Sorry to ask, but . . . In article "Jason E. Geistweidt" writes: >If I write a mathematical formula to say create a random track in this new >piece of mine, am i creating randomness: Better yet, can one create randomness >? Afterall, isn't the randomness i've created bound by the parameters of my >formula? I guess i need a good definition of randomness. > I would think you are right.....you ARE bound by the parameters of your formula. I would also point to the 'Chaos theory' movement which finds subtle order in what we humans believe to be the most chaotic processes. keith -- ============================================================= = Keith Hedger| "AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHRRRRGGGGGHHH" = = | "S-S-S-S-Stupid !" = ============================================================= ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************