========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 09:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Phil Skiba Subject: Re: MPEG sound player for Windows? You can ftp them from the internet underground music archive. I forget the directory, but the site is something like sunsite.unc.edu maybe? I'll look it up...I thought I had it around here someplace.... Phil sps5251@siena.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 14:38:28 GT+3 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Hermann Henning Rauth Organization: PUC/PR > Here is a simple question that I thought I might be able to find on a FAQ > but have been unable to. I have 1) a pc-clone 2) a korg dss-1 and 3) a > roland mpu-401 and 4) voyetra sequencer plus software. With these I can > record and compose and play back on the korg. As a beginner on the > internet, I am missing something simple. If I download a midi file, what > do I do with it? My software saves .sng files--I assume specific to the > voyetra software. Do I need some other kind of card or equipment to play > or edit these files? > > Jeff Apfel > Well, if you get the .mid files you should go to the files screen on your Sequencer+ (press F on the main screen) and then change the file type (pressing M, for mode). I believe there are 4 or 5 types of files that Sequencer+ works with: .sng .rol .mid .s and some other I don't remember. After that, select the directory where your .mid files are and press L to load one of them. Hope that helps... Hermann Rauth rlat1@rla01.pucpr.br LIFO - industrial band ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 10:51:59 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: Lessons from the crypt > > The Schoenbergian delemia is that his works are tremendous monoliths of the Delemia? Sounds contagious. The word has a nice ring to it though. > > Now while this might sound like Sartreian smokeblowing, Stravinsky would > blink and scowl saying "Music is incapable of communicating anything at all ! > ". > perhaps that is why so few of his scores are regularly performed. You don't go to very many concerts do you? Granted that Firebird, Petrushka and Rite of Spring still count for the bulk of Stravinsky performances, many of the Neoclassical scores are coming into their own. L'Histoire du Soldat and the Octet are favorites with large chamber groups, Pulcinella is a staple of the chamber orchestra repertory. The Rakes Progress is turning up in major opera houses, the Symphony of Psalms is gaining status as the Great Twentieth Century Choral Work. Few musicians pay much heed to his "music cannot express anything at all" statement, because Stravinsky's own works give the lie to it. > > I have come to these conclusions - > > #1. Rhythmic and temporal relationships are more structurally important than > harmonic relationships. (The Schoenbergian school is a treasure trove of > rhythmic possibilities) > > #2. Melodic constucts are best understood by the listner when they are > modeled on the rhythmic and tonal inflections of the human voice. (see #1) > > #3 Overly self referential works are ultimately doomed to a response of > indifference from the listner (angst ridden tragi-posing wears out the > audience quickly and only works for pop formulas which have a fresh cycle of > self obsessed post adolescents every five years who spend vast sums of money > to be told how tragic their lot in the world is) I think these could all be plausibly argued. I wouldn't mind hearing you expand on each of these points, although there may be some who might resent the consumption of so much emusic-less bandwitdth. Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 10:42:24 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Damien James Miller <943127@EDNA.CC.SWIN.EDU.AU> Subject: Realtime Csound? Hi! Has anyone succeded in getting realtime audio out of (PC version) Csound? If so, could you explain how? as an extension to this, is it possible for Csound to read from a stream of MIDI data, and spit out realtime audio? Thanks, Damien ************************************************************************** | Damien Miller aka toado@edna.cc.swin.edu.au aka Silicon Dreams | |------------------------------------------------------------------------| | what would _you_ do with a pet sloth? | what problem? | ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 15:48:32 MEZ Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Thomas Neuhaus Subject: A/UX and MIDI Programs Hello all, has anybody ever tried to make MIDI-Programs work under the Finder environment of A/UX, that means "Standard" Macintosh Applications which use MIDI? If so: How did you manage it? If i try even to launch e.g. Patchbay, it tells these nice little thing about an unknown program quitting unexpectedly with an error of type one. (Very informative as always under MacOS). I didn't find a clue in any of he manuals, checked the device files (crw-rw-rw- 1 bin bin 0, 0 Sep 30 21:59 /dev/modem) and the MIDI-Interface reacts when I write something to that device. Any clues? I suspect that Finale bombs away for a similar reason but maybe one of you was able to get it running and knows a trick that hasn't got anything to do with midi. Please let me know. And don't blame me for the setup. We need A/UX and Finale at the same time and on the same machines sharing the same environment (Network etc.) for good reasons. Believe me, If I could, I would make things quite different- ly, but I just can 't. Thanks for your help (if any) Thomas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 16:12:27 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Robin Davies Subject: please sign me off In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 26 SEP 1994 09:34:10 EDT sign off ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 19:13:07 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Current computers for composition >Well, my "religious" beliefs are less a "pro Mac" then a "die Windows die" >religions. Strangely, my belief system tells me that EMUSIC is a list for talking about electronic music. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 14:38:13 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Stephen David Beck Subject: E-music Opportunity I don't know whether this goes against the ban on advertising on this list, but the Society for Electro-Acoustic Music in the United States (SEAMUS) has extended its deadline for the 1995 National Conference to October 15, 1994. It's a great organization and a good opportunity to have your music heard. If you would like a copy of the Call for Scores, please e-mail me and I'll forward it to you. You do not have to be a member to apply. BTW, the conference will be at Ithaca College, in Ithaca NY, March 23-25, 1995. Stephen David Beck President-Elect, SEAMUS sbeck@math.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 13:17:24 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Denis Trcek Subject: VESTAX and MUSIC DEALERS could someone from the states please provide me with the adresses/faxes of VESTAX Company (recording equipment producer) and of some big resellers in the US that sell music/recording equipment. Please respond directly to me and thanks in advance. ================== ************************************************************* ************ * Denis Trcek O O * * * * "Jozef Stefan" Institute O O * * * * Jamova 39, 61 111 Ljubljana, SLOVENIA O O * * * * e-mail: denis.trcek@e5.ijs.si denis.trcek@ijs.si O * * * * Tel.:+386 61 1259 199, Fax:+386 61 1261 029, +386 61 273 677 * * * ******************************************************************* ****** ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Sep 1994 00:20:25 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Stuart Anderson Subject: Re: MAX for $120 >>BTW Someone has offered me MAX for 120 (yes it's legit). Do you thinks it's a >>good deal or should I go for a kosher version so I can get upgrades ? How > stable >>is the current version ? I'd only be running on a 475... Thanks > >Stuart, > > If it's legit, I don't see why there would be problems geting upgrades. The > program is copy protected and has a serial number so it's not hard to verify > but you better check with Opcode to be sure. (415) 856-3331 The current >version > is 2.5.2 and I used it on a IIcx without problems. It's reasonably stable for >a > development environment. You can do things to make it unstable. I did. > > Speed depends upon your work. There are two areas of concern. As your patches > get larger, it may take some time to load parts into memory and redraw the > screen. This is primarily a problem when creating patches. I once did a >"Select > All" in a twelve-tone set-matrix and waited twenty minutes for the selection. > It took a second to alter the selection and another twenty minutes to >deselect. > Max is a fast program but If you employ heavy real-time calculations you could > cause MAX or anything else to gag. > >Pat OK, I'll give it some thought... the price is 120 pounds (quid, sterling etc) not dollars so it's not that good a deal !! I think I'd like to do some realtime stuff with an Octapad as a controller using Max to send note sequences from a single pad hit, also dependant on velocity. I dare say it can do lots more but this would do for starters... I have done something myself in C for Midi Manager but my programming isn't up to the really complex stuff... never mind. Thanks Stuart ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 11:26:02 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steve Hills Subject: Re: ALESIS 8track ADAT Thanks for the information! (KSUVM.KSU.EDU). SHills@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:39:04 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Piet van Oostrum Subject: Midi files/software archives on the Internet There is a list of ftp and mail server archives with MIDI documentation, programs and music on the Internet. Also enclosed is a list of MIDI and electronic music related mailing lists. The latest version of this file can be obtained by ftp from ftp.cs.ruu.nl [131.211.80.17] in pub/MIDI/DOC/archives or by mail from mail-server@cs.ruu.nl (send a message with HELP in the body). From the mail-server the filename without pub/ should be used. The latest monthly version is also available in the various news.answers archives around the world, in music/midi/archives. Version: $Id: archives,v 1.92 1994/09/30 16:44:22 piet Exp $ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 09:39:04 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Piet van Oostrum Subject: Computer Music bibliography There is a bibliography on synthesizers, midi, computer and electronic music that I have collected from various sources. I have tried to bring some structure into it, but not all books will fit into a single subject. NOTE: I haven't read these books, and the comments are from other people. The latest version of this file can be obtained by ftp from ftp.cs.ruu.nl [131.211.80.17] in pub/MIDI/DOC/bibliography or by mail from mail-server@cs.ruu.nl (send a message with HELP in the body). From the mail-server the filename without pub/ should be used. The latest monthly version is also available in the various news.answers archives around the world, in music/midi/bibliography. Version: $Id: bibliography,v 1.25 1994/09/08 12:24:00 piet Exp $ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Oct 1994 19:38:26 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Jordan Subject: Re: Books on songwriting Re: Mix Bookshelf here's their 24-hour fax number 510-653-5142. Fax them your snail mail address with a request for a catalog. That will be a great place to start. -Tom Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 18:12:24 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Giovanni Ramello - Doc.rif A.Antoniotto Dip SAAST" Subject: Csound for Atari In-Reply-To: <9409281428.AA22696@rs950.cisi.unito.it> Does anyone know a ftp site to grab Csound for Atari ST ? Giovanni Ramello ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 19:56:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Phil Skiba Subject: chords hey everybody. I am currently stuck between a rock and a hard place....could someone help me out? I need help deciphering the following chords, i.e. what the notes are. Abo9 (That "o" should be "in the air") Ab+7 Gbm6 basically, all I need to know is what do the "o" and "+" do to the chords. I'm pretty sure one is "augmented", buti don't know what the other means thnaks Phil sps5251@siena.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 00:42:02 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Thomas DiGiovanni Subject: Re: chords In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of SUN 02 OCT 1994 09:56:18 EST I hope this will help you out: Abo9 : Ab B D F (the 'o' means diminished - minor thirds between each note) Ab+7 : Ab C E Gb (the '+' is augmented - raise the fifth a half step) Gbm6 : Gb A Db Eb (A confusing chord because the Eb is not in the natural minor scale) -Tom DG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 23:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: keeshan chris Subject: sequencing software hi :> I am looking for some good freeware/shareware that i could download that is pretty high level, and the ability to save what you have wriiten .. any ideas? thanks in advance! zzkeesha@acc.wuacc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:55:28 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Lessons from the crypt >> #1. Rhythmic and temporal relationships are more structurally important than >> harmonic relationships. (The Schoenbergian school is a treasure trove of >> rhythmic possibilities) >> >> #2. Melodic constucts are best understood by the listner when they are >> modeled on the rhythmic and tonal inflections of the human voice. (see #1) >> >> #3 Overly self referential works are ultimately doomed to a response of >> indifference from the listner (angst ridden tragi-posing wears out the >> audience quickly and only works for pop formulas which have a fresh cycle of >> self obsessed post adolescents every five years who spend vast sums of money >> to be told how tragic their lot in the world is) > >I think these could all be plausibly argued. I wouldn't mind hearing you >expand on each of these points, although there may be some who might >resent the consumption of so much emusic-less bandwitdth. > No, by all means feel free. Everyone can learn structural lessons from the discussion of such topics. Point 1: Yes, definitely. The ear seems to detect rhythmic patterns, even complex ones, much more easily that it does harmonic relations. (This is from my own subjective experience). It is far simpler to "feel" a 22/8 groove than it is to follow a harmonically dense 1-2-3-4 section. Point 2: Depends. Like I've said before, I can hear very distictly in my mind's ear sections from Babbitt's "Composition for synthesizer". I believe that interesting timbres can contribute significantly to making unusual harmonic relationships memorable. Point 3: Again, depends. Many of the jazz standards survive not because they are such world-shaking philosophical statement but because they're good tunes. I suppose these *don't* fit into the "overly-self-referential" model because they stand well on their own. There are good melodists currently composing (I personally happen to find a lot of the stuff that Sting does quite nice if I don't listen to the words). -- Joe M. -- "At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by the artists,,," (MST3K) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 13:32:22 BST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven.Bramson@JET.UK Subject: Re: MIDI driver for Windows Tomek Sadowski writes ... Subject: Hi, I've got a small software problem: I've built a very simple MIDI interface based on a slightly modified RS232 card. From the PC point of view, it is just a COM port (configurable as COM1 thru 4 by changing addresses and interrupt number). So far, I've found that my card is compatible with the "Optronics Basic Midi Kit" driver of CakeWalk 4.0 Standard (DOS), but now I'm looking for a Windows driver for such a device, or at least some informations on how to write it. Can anyone help me? .... The Yamaha Hello Music module and the Roland Sound Canvas SC55 mrk II both have serial interfaces and presumably have both DOS and Windows drivers to allow a PC with a standard COM port to make a MIDI connection. Hope this helps Steven.Bramson@jet.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:23:49 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: More on the ADAT (redirected to SYNTH-L) > >The machines reproduce very nicely and are wonderful for "workhorse" tasks >that would eat up too much storage space on a random access system >(pro-tools,sound tools II etc). Idiot proof interface. > >My HUGE! beef with alesis is theie proprietory attitude. ie you must by a >$1000.00 box (from them) in order to digitaly transfer files to a standard >DAT machine or to ANY other instrument unless of course it's an alesis >product which has an alesis A/I built into it. This presents major problems >for those of us who do alot of random access recording/sound >design/editing. Also if you want to perform any kind of digital editing >techniques you must by their $1000.00 BRC remote. Also if you want to sync >to an outside source without having to waste a track for SMPTE or if you >want to incorporate ANY Other form of synchronization you have to buy >another $1000.00 box from alesis. Granted, companies which have some vision >and respect for the artists that pay their bills (JL Cooper, Digidesign) >have come up with some cost effective solutions to the synchronization >issue. I'm all for free enterprise but how about free enterprise with a >conscience! >Anyway, the ADAT machines are really just analog interfaces and analog >concept that store the information digitaly. As I said they are very fine >for long files. I suppose the editing capabilities are pretty good from a >tape based view but from a digital view point they are inadequate. > >All this is of course is IMHO. ;) The ADAT machines do really supply a >fine, cost effective medium as long as your needs don't exceed the machines >capabilities and your budget! > >charles >ccps@mindvox.phantom.com >zygote productions/potential magnetic media -- "At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by the artists,,," (MST3K) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 11:24:12 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "by way of xrjdm@farside.gsfc.nasa.gov Joe McMahon" Subject: query Howdy! I'm brand new to the list, and I was wondering if anyone could help me. I'm very interested in electronic music that explores the human voice, esp. the recorded human voice. For example, I'm impressed by the CD "Music as a Second Language" by Paul de Marinis. And I'm also excited by Laetitia Sonami's work on "Imaginary Landscapes." Can anyone tell me where to find more music by these composers or suggest other recorded works in this vein? I'd be forever grateful. Thanks heaps, Steve Sposato v077qqcs@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 09:33:14 MST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" Subject: Re: Sample clicks I would like to get a copy. thanks thare ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 19:21:58 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: W: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Mary Jane MacHaffie Subject: Student rates for software Does anyone out there know of a source for music students to get special rates on music software? Thanks in advance. M J machaffm@goliath.sunyocc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 14:34:50 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: James Porter Subject: Re: Student rates for software >Does anyone out there know of a source for music students to get special >rates on music software? >Thanks in advance. > >M J > >machaffm@goliath.sunyocc.edu > > I used a place in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, a few years ago when I was still in school, but that may be further that you'd want to drive. If not, let me know, and I'll try to scare up the address for you. I can't think of any mail-order houses off-hand that provide such discounts. By the way, what is your principal instrument? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 15:34:00 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Torry Colichio Subject: Re: please sign me off Please end my subscription ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:59:45 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Please, no more guitar stuff! (was Re: chords) >>> Please, this discussion of guitar chords is nothing to do with >>> >>>"Electronic music \"gearhead\" list" >>> >>> Couldn't you find a guitar list somewhere and discuss it there??? >> >>Two quick points: >> >> - Knowing how to read such chord notations is useful to anyone who uses a >> "fake book" (melody + chords), and not everyone's gotten to learn that yet. >> >But learning to read fake books is also nothing to do with electronic music! > >> - I personally am glad to see that we have a number of people who are >> willing to jump in and help - the fact that you see a lot of responses >> is, from my point of view, good, as it shows we have a cooperative >> readership. That fact that you have to read them all is just one of >> those things that goes along with the fact that this is an e-mail list. > >But it's just ever so much noise for the vast majority of people on this list, >most of whom have zero interest in guitar chords or fake books. > >Why don't you post your response to the list and see what people think? > With Tom's permission, here it is. I still think that increasing people's technical competence is valuable. --- Joe M. -- "At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by the artists,,," (MST3K) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 18:22:12 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Burton Beerman Subject: sequencing softwareYou didn't state what platform you are using. There is a $29 sequencer advertised in elec musician by the band-in-a-box people (I believe) that includes a notation module (IBM platform). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:43:11 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Keith Hall Subject: Current price on SY 22 First, which list is it ok to send messages containing for sale items. Is it synth-l or emusic-l? Second, does anyone know what the going price for a Yamaha SY22 would be. Thanks, -- Keith B. Hall khall@celtech.com Cellular Technical Services khall@s850.mwc.edu Seattle, WA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:47:55 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: RE[more!]: Lessons from the crypt! >> #1. Rhythmic and temporal relationships are more structurally important than >> harmonic relationships. (The Schoenbergian school is a treasure trove of >> rhythmic possibilities) >> We might have to consult Frances' "The Perception of Music" or some similar tome for more info on this. Anecdotal evidence is rarely sufficient. Any music psychologists out there? >>> #2. Melodic constucts are best understood by the listner when they are >>> modeled on the rhythmic and tonal inflections of the human voice. > There was an interesting paper presented at Synaesthetica this year (that's a music and graphics technology conference in Australia) about tuning the scales in which sounds are played according to the harmonic spectrum of the sounds. I suppose the main problem, then, is that we've become accustomed to the 12-tone equally trempered scale and try to fit everything into it. (Soory, folks, I don't have the procedings on me right now, so I can't give you a reference.) On point 3: what are overly self-referential works? Is it more likely that works are referential with respect to others? Isn't this why we speak of style and genre in music (or art for that matter)? Actually, there are some 'self-referential' works in C20th composers. I am thinking here of the Second Viennese School. Their works often exhibit elaborate motivic development which could be described as self-referential, yet these works are not derided for this. (How many analyses do you come acoross of this stuff? forward to the continuing debate. Regards, David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 22:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Phil Skiba Subject: Re: Please, no more guitar stuff! (was Re: chords) Well, for my part, I really appriciate all the help I recieved. In the last few years I have gotten away from studying theory and chord structure. As a result, not only couldn't I remember how to construct augmented and diminished chords, I had begun to confuse the + and o with each other. If I was doing it, I'm sure there are others who are as well. I'm sorry if all this jazz (if you'll excuse the pun) annoyed some list members, but I agree with joe...the fundementals can be just as, if not more, valuable as tech stuff. Phil Skiba sps5251@siena.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 23:39:27 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MR ROBERT POKLENKOWSKI Subject: Enthusiast I have been an electronic music enthusiast since my days as a production assistant at the computer (music) lab in the old RCA building in NY-back in the days when what now fits in your rack took up an entire room! The reason for my addition to the flow of information, is that I have run across a tremendously brilliant, and at times humorous, CD recording that seems to epitomize everything that this list seems to evoke. The CD that I refer to is titled: "WINSTIN: 'Piano Concerto #1' / 'Symphony #4'" and is a recording (CD) of some of the music by the American composer Robert Ian Winstin. In this recording, Winstin; who is a young classical composer, actually replaces 18 'live' human players of the orchestra with 18 computers. According to the CD liner notes, Winstin then linked the 18 computers to a central command computer, which triggered the outside 18 computers via a laser light box with backstop; which he 'tripped' with his baton to activate a current and real-time time code. The most astounding thing about this recording is that Winstin was able to use the 18 computers as 'real-time' active musicians in the orchestra; not just as background or enhancement sequences! This was a very hard CD to find; but well worth the effort! I am supplying this information from the CD liner booklet: Artist: Robert Ian Winstin Title: "WINSTIN: 'Piano Concerto #1' / 'Symphony #4'" (Virtual Orchestra) label: ERM (Editions de la Rue Margot) USA Catalogue #: (CCC) ERM6660 Label Phone #: (312) 935-1676 / (312) 725-5055 FAX In case your interested, this CD is listed in the Schwann/Opus Guide. Thanks for your time... Robert Poklenkowski NYWK35A@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 02:07:18 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Thomas DiGiovanni Subject: Re: Chords-what's the problem? In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of MON 03 OCT 1994 07:59:45 EST Is it so wrong for a fellow musician to ask for some chords, no matter what list it is on? I think a lot of people are so caught up in the electronic side of music (myself included) that we often forget the basics. It's an art form, one that computers and other electronics will never be able to duplicate to the trained ear. So maybe it wasn't the absolute correct place to ask the question, but why get all up-tight about it? Answer the guy's question, and move on. No big deal. As I recall, not so long ago, we had some lengthy discussions about 12-tone music (Re: Shoenberg). Not particularly E-Music, but some incredibly interesting stuff. So let's get on with life. Joe - go on with my other response - I sure do hope my one piece of mail doesn't trouble too many people. -Tom D. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:35:04 +0200 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DRURYJD@ALPHA.UNISA.AC.ZA Subject: SCHOENBERG AND MIDI SCHOENBERG AND MIDI Please allow me to given this discussion a different slant (track?). From a technical point of view what Schoenberg did with his 12-tone system was to reinterpret the physical properties of the existing keyboard. The 12 keys per octave were made equal and pitch properties were serialized, with the 11 intervals in the series being the main conceptual compositional material. Schoenberg could not have been inspired by the Western notational system for this, because there are more than 12 notes that can be notated in an octave (Eb and D# are the same on a well-tempered keyboard but not necessarily on string or other instruments or the human voice, and in notation do not look the same or named the same). So what he did was to experiment with making music through a reinterpretation of certain aspects of a keyboard. (Or am I missing something -- I'm sure someone will tell me where I'm wrong). In other ways he did not want to change, thus he strongly felt the composer and not the technical system must control the music, that traditional structures like sonata form were still good enough, genres like "string quartets" were still valid, and so on. Now in MIDI we follow the equal 12-tone idea of Schoenberg (and others), though not the serial technique. Traditional Western keys do not have twelve equal tones per octave, but we try to make tonal music with 12 equal MIDI pitch numbers per octave, which is scarcely logical. Where one could find inspiration in Schoenberg is in his reinterpretation of given, existing instruments/tools. Could we not use the given, existing MIDI system to create a new technical system for music, instead of simply accepting the tonal conceptions in use in Western Europe since 1700? Sure, I know electronic music does use other tunings, any and all type of melodic organisations, but most of us are stuck with 12-tone MIDI. Sure you can tune modern synthesizers differently (and retune on the fly if you are clever and rich enough), but the synthesizers still send the note messages as 12-tone MIDI, with all the consequent loss of flexibility. Why not take advantage of this in new *musical*, not only technical, ways? Finally, I think it important to remember that most musics of the world, aside from Classical, pop and modern Western folksongs, use non-tempered, non-12-tone tunings and scales; few Westerners are exposed *enough* to these systems, or ever try to sing in them, to appreciate what is possible. The 12-tone, well-tempered musical system was helped along by Schoenberg, even though his music WAS avant-garde and IS now mostly passe and unappreciated. Are we still helping it along, and if so, why? JDD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 13:19:01 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Stefan Scheffler Subject: Re: Grab bag >today there was a posting of the cubase address in England. When I tried it I >got an incorrect address prompt. I checked again and am sure I used what was >posted. Has anyone else had the same result, did I make an error which escaped >my second look, and could someone post that address again, please. The List: cubase-users@mcc.ac.uk Subscription: cubase-users-request@mcc.ac.uk It might be possible that the subscription address has changed, the list address is right it's the one I am using all the time. Ciao, Stefan <> stefan@mms-gmbh.de <> Stefan Scheffler, Software Development <> Steinberg Soft- & Hardware GmbH <> Cubase Lite/Score/Audio for Mac/Atari/Windows ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 13:32:38 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Stefan Scheffler Subject: Re: MIDI driver for Windows >Hi, >I've got a small software problem: I've built a very simple MIDI >interface based on a slightly modified RS232 card. From the PC point >of view, it is just a COM port (configurable as COM1 thru 4 by >changing addresses and interrupt number). So far, I've found that my >card is compatible with the "Optronics Basic Midi Kit" driver of >CakeWalk 4.0 Standard (DOS), but now I'm looking for a Windows driver >for such a device, or at least some informations on how to write it. >Can anyone help me? > >Tomek Try the Voyetra serial MME driver, it is bundled even with Roland devices. Send me a mail if you do not know where to get it. I saw it on CompuServe in the Roland Library. Ciao, Stefan <> stefan@mms-gmbh.de <> Stefan Scheffler, Software Development <> Steinberg Soft- & Hardware GmbH <> Cubase Lite/Score/Audio for Mac/Atari/Windows ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:58:49 BST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Chris.Dee" Subject: Re: chords + meane augmented, raise the fifth a semitone o (in the air) is diminished, flat third, flat five and a sixth ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:28:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steve Hills Subject: Electric Guitar Distortion I've used numerous distortions in my time. I've recently tried the DSP2101 Studio Tube Boand the Boss SE70. Hefty price tags. What are you all using for the standard guitar sound? I'm thinking about staying simple and using only a good distortion with the LXP1 Lexicon I've already got. I owned the Alesis GT once and didn't like it. I need to use it primarily for recording. SHills@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 08:29:48 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steve Hills Subject: TASCAM DA88 Has anyone used the TASCAM DA88? How does it compare to the Alesis ADAT? SHills@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:30:48 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: SCHOENBERG AND MIDI > > So what he did was to experiment with making music through a reinterpretation of > certain aspects of a keyboard. (Or am I missing something -- I'm sure someone > will tell me where I'm wrong). In other ways he did not want to change, thus he This is basically true, although Schoenberg might not have actually thought of it that way. His principal instrument was the cello, I believe. > Now in MIDI we follow the equal 12-tone idea of Schoenberg (and others), though > not the serial technique. Traditional Western keys do not have twelve equal > tones per octave, but we try to make tonal music with 12 equal MIDI pitch > numbers per octave, which is scarcely logical. Where one could find inspiration > organisations, but most of us are stuck with 12-tone MIDI. Sure you can tune > modern synthesizers differently (and retune on the fly if you are clever and > rich > enough), but the synthesizers still send the note messages as 12-tone MIDI, with > all the consequent loss of flexibility. Why not take advantage of this in new > *musical*, not only technical, ways? It's true, you can recreate music in any number of radical and different ways but it's not going to make any long-term difference until a significant number of people can be convinced that what you've done is tremendous and wonderful enough to warrant changing their habits. Tradition carries a lot of weight. Musicians who have invested a lot of time mastering music in 12-tone equal temperament are going to have to be really enthused if they're going to take the trouble to learn other temperaments. There have been attempts to create alternate keyboards. If you go to your nearest copy of New Grove and look under "Janko" you'll see a picture of one alternative keyboard that was designed in 1882 by Paul von Janko. I'm now quoting from Grove: "Based on the premise that the hand can barely stretch more than a 9th on the piano, and that all scales are fingered differently, Janko's new keyboard had two interlocking 'manuals' with three touch-points for each key lever, so that it appears to have six tiers of short, narrow keys. These six tiers constitute one keyboard operating on the same set of strings; odd-numbered tiers produce a whole-tone scale from C, even-numbered ones a whole-tone scale from C#. Accidentals are marked with a black stripe. The advantage of this system is that all major scales are fingered alike, as are all minor, and an octave span is only 13 cm. instead of the standard 18.5 cm. Huge arpeggios can be negotiated with barely any arm movement." The Janko keyboard was still designed to be used with 12-tone equal temperament, but it could have been adapted to microtonal tunings (although that would have negated some of the advantages it was originally designed to implement). If you have access to Groves, you should take a look at this keyboard. It's a truly bizzarre and awesome thing. It never caught on. No pianists were willing to relearn their technique, so we're still stuck with the standard piano keyboard, just as we're stuck with the old QWERTY typewriter keyboard. Revolutions come and go, but truly lasting changes happen very slowly. But if you're truly devoted to alternate tunings you can do it with the present technology and the process of translating the note numbers to 12-tone MIDI shouldn't be too much of a hassle. If enough people see the virtue of your system then they'll go ahead and invent a new MIDI standard geared to however many notes you want in an octave. (Don't count on it happening in your lifetime, though). Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 00:34:54 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DAVID O'DONOGHUE Subject: Re: Chords Reply to message text: From: Thomas DiGiovanni >Is it so wrong for a fellow musician to ask for some chords, no matter >what list it is on? >why get all up-tight about it? Answer the guy's question, and move on. >No big deal. As I recall, not so long ago, we had some lengthy >discussions about 12-tone music (Re: Shoenberg). I agree. Frankly, neither the 'chords' stuff OR 'Shoenberg' interest me. But why throw either of these subjects off the list? David O'Donoghoe DODON@OZEMAIL.COM.AU ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:34:00 +0200 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jose Manuel Adan Subject: JOKE II A man goes to the Doctor and says: - Doctor, I have a stomach ache! - The doctor examines him and says: Well, tou have to be operated. - Please doctor say to me: After de operation will I be able to play piano well? - Yes! Of course! - Oh, that's good! It's one of my illusions in my life! I have no idea... Jose (a musician of Spain) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 10:29:10 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Synergetics Inc Subject: Re: Please, no more guitar stuff! (was Re: chords) In-Reply-To: <199410032200.QAA02022@infonaut.com> > I still think that increasing people's > technical competence is valuable. > I agree. I learned something from the discussion on chords. Keep the theory alive. I didn't realize it was a religious issue that "electronic musicians" couldn't speak to "accoustic musicians." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:09:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Automata: the long-awaited summary Back in August, I think, I promised to post a quick intro to cellular automata and how they can be used as a sound-generation tool. Since I'm going to take a couple of different sources and sum them up with little or no direct attribution, combined with my own opinions, I'll give everybody my references *first* so they can delete the article and draw their own conclusions if they so prefer. The primary reference that got me started on all this is one in the CMJ: Vol 14, No. 4, Winter 1990: "Digital Synthesis of Self-modifying Waveforms by Means of Cellular Automata" (Jacques Chareyon). Those who are already familiar with automata may just skip to that article and forget about the rest of this one. Note: the article gives a mail address for M. Chareyon, but he did not answer an inquiry about any available recordings using this technique in 1990. So. Anyone still here? Good. Cellular automata are a mathematical concept first introduced in the late 1940's. Generally speaking, a cellular automaton consists of a grid of cells. Each cell may take on any of a number of values - binary automata (cell on or cell off) are the most commonly studied. Each cell has a neighborhood, defined more simply as other cells which influence its state. The exact nature of this influence is defined by what are called transition rules. The cellular automaton starts off with some cells in any of the allowable states. for each "step" in the automaton's history, the neighborhood of every cell is checked, and the state of the cell is updated. All updates occur simultaneously. The transition rule must describe the resulting state of a cell for every possible configuration of other cells in the neighborhood. For large numbers of states, the amount of memory required to hold the transition rule becomes increasingly large, Therefore, some automata use what is known as a "totalistic" rule. These rules simply sum the values of the cells in the neighborhood and then assign a result on this basis. The resulting tables are far smaller. Many readers may already be familiar with John Horton Conway's game of "Life". This is a two-dimensional binary automaton with a totalistic rule. This makes for a very small rule set: i) If fewer than two filled cells (cells with value 1) surround a cell, it becomes empty next generation. ii) If more than three filled cells surround a cell, it becomes empty next generation. iii) If exactly three cells filled cells surround a cell, it becomes filled on the next generation. This corresponds to a totalistic rule set with a total of 8(2-1)+1 or 9 rules (one each for the sum values of 0 (no cells with a value) through 9 (all cells with a value) ).If the transition rule were represented as a non-totalistic one, the rule set would need 2**8 or 256 entries. There are many interesting totalistic automata, so giving up detailed description of every nuance of the transitions to save memory space isn't a big sacrifice. Interesting as two dimensional automata are, they really aren't terribly useful for music making. There have been some experiments which have attempted to use a two-dimensional automaton to generate MIDI events - synthesis at the note level, using : Battista, T. and M. Giri, 1988. "Composizione Tramite Automi Cellulari." Atti del VII Cooloquio di Informatica Musicale. Rome, Italy: Edizione Arti Grafiche Ambrosini, pp. 181-182. Edgar, R. and J. Ryan, 1986. "LINA" Exhibition of the 1986 International Computer Music Conference, San Francisco: Computer Music Association. I have not heard any of the music from these efforts, so I certainly can't pass any judgement on them. For the purposes of this summary, we'll just look at one-dimensional automata. These use a linear array of cells, with the neighborhood generally being one or two cells on either side of each cell. (This is the type of automaton dealt with in M. Chareyon's article, which I will be paraphrasing broadly hereafter). M. Chareyon's automata are wavetables. A digitized signal is stored as a linear array of numbers in memory. A totalistic rule is used to determine a lookup value which indexes into an array containing the resulting value; this is saved into a second array. After the first array is completely processed, the roles of the two are swapped and the process is repeated. The limiting factor in this process is the number of bits of resolution being used to generate the sound. For a totalistic rule using a two-cell neighborhood and 12-bit individual samples, we have 3*(2*12) = 12288 entries in the rule table. At 2 bytes each, this is 24K of storage. If we go to 16-bit sample resolution, we have 196608 entries at 2 bytes each for a total of 393216 bytes, or 384K. The key point of M. Charyeon's method is the use of small neighborhoods with large numbers of cellular states. Since the computation of the new wavetable is all table lookup, very complex transition rules can be precomputed and loaded into the tables, allowing the synthesis to essentially be a fast sum-and-lookup loop to calculate each new wavesample. From the article, it appears that M. Chareyon was able to produce 2 or 3 voices in realtime on a Mac II with a Digidesign Sound Accelerator board. It seems that it would probably be possible to use an AV Mac to do it without the board. This LASy (Linear Automaton Synthesis) method is closely related to the Karplus-Strong plucked-string algorithm, in that a wavesample is run through an algorithm which recirculates the samples to "self-modify" the wave. In fact, a judicious choice of table entries allows one to very simply simulate the K-S algoritm directly. So what are the sounds like? Some automata produce waveforms which quickly "ramp-up" to complex spectra and then drop off quickly. Others move to a steady state and then remain there. Yet others produce never-ending and unpredictable waveforms, whose harmonic content is constantly changing. Obviously enough, the original wavesample can be obtained mathematically, or by actual sampling and using LASy as a waveshaper. As M. Chareyon notes, a quick estimate of the number of possible automata for a 2-neighbor totalistic rule using a 256-entry wavetable with 12-bit entries is (2**12)**256 * (2**12)**(3*2**12) or about 10**4500 possible automata. Of course, many, many of these would not be suitable for music (e.g., the 4096 automata in which all values go to one vlaue in one step, etc.); however, the number of musically useful automata is still likely to be an immense number. M. Chareyon provides a number of examples of ways to fill out the rule tables and a number of hints on creating wave tables - generally speaking, one can create a function which is used to compute the values to be placed into the table and then fill it so it can simply be loaded and used by the basic algorithm. His experience in using LASy is that he manages approximately 50% of the time to produce sounds with the desired characteristics, and that about 10% of the remaining time he gets unexpected but useful results which can be used as starting points for further exploration. Again, the important point is that the basic automaton uses wavesamples at full resolution, calculating a new wavesample for each step of the automaton; the next wavesample can be played while the new one is being calculated. Because of the large number of states, mathematical tools for the analysis of automata and the construction of automata with specifically desired qualities require too much storage and compute time to make them useful for LASy purposes. Again, much of this article is paraphrased from M. Chareyon's article; I take no credit for any of the work in this note. I'm just summarizing. The following other articles were referenced by M. Chareyon's article: Burks, A., ed. 1970. Essays on Cellular Automata. Champaign/Urbana, IL: University of Illinois Press. Chareyon, J. 1988a. "Sound Synthesis and Processing by Means of Linear Cellular Automata." Proceedings of the 1988 Internation Computer Music Conference. San Francisco: Computer Music Association. Chareyon, J. 1988b. "Wavetable come Automa Cellulare: una Nuova Tecnica di Sintesi." Atti del VII Colloquio di Informatica Musicale, Rome, Italy: Edizioni Arti Grafiche Ambrosini, pp. 174-177. Farmer, D., T. Toffoli, and S. Wolfram, eds. 1984. Cellular Automata. North-Holland Physics Publishing. [One of the definitive works on cellular automata - fairly heavy math, not a popular presentation - JM] Gardner, M. 1970. "The Fantastic Combinations of John Conway's New Solitare Game 'Life'". Scientific American 223(4) 120-123. [A good introduction to cellular automata, focusing on 'life' in specific. Useful intro if my 1-paragraph summary of automata was confusing :) - JM] --- Joe M. -- "At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by the artists,,," (MST3K) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:02:33 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Keith Bowers Subject: deep structure in obscura On OCT 3 David wrote while notating bird songs- >what are overly self-referential works? Is it more likely that >works are referential with respect to others? Isn't this why we speak of >style and genre in music (or art for that matter)? Actually, there are some >'self-referential' works in C20th composers. I am thinking here of the >Second Viennese School. Their works often exhibit elaborate motivic >development which could be described as self-referential, yet these works >are not derided for this. I was being intentionaly obscure here. While refering to pop music in general, my statement really was in regards to works self referential to the degree that their emotional/deep structure content is rarified to the point of faliure in establishing communication with listners. I remember well Michael Gielen being chased from his music directors post in Cincinnati during the 80's for programing what was, in the orchestra's view, too many 2nd V. school works. This was actually a revolt on the part of professional orchestra musicians who would presumably have an advanced understanding of musical syntax. If Schoenberg and his followers works were so self referntial that even professional musicians could not or would not be able to make the links that make a work transcend being a historical curiosity what is to be expected from the general concert going public? It is In this way I speak of Schoenberg's faliure. HIs solution to the problems of construting works resulted in either the loss of deep structures that are intrinsic to musical communication or so revolutonary that the general listener needs another 100 years to catch up. Joe's post about jazz standards is a point well taken. These works continue to be viable because the deep structures are approachable by a wide listening public. Admitably I am wading out into deep water here, but in this transitional period of music being made by human/computer systems the evolution of musical deep structures is in tremendous state of revision. As far as references for my statements about temporal relations being more structuraly important than pitch relations, I recall a "tome" published in the late 70s or early 80s that related Chomsky's generative theories to musical comprehension. (THis is what I mean by deep structures above) Im checking my library to pass along the author and title. anyone recall that publication? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:23:00 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HeavyM@AOL.COM Subject: Electronic MUsic FTP site. The CyberDen - Worldwide Alternative Music & Entertainment Network 415-472-5527 - Labels, Zines, Multimedia, Bands, Artists, Cultures cyberden.com - Telnet and anonymous FTP -> Info: info@cyberden.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:56:42 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Leo T. Nutley" Subject: Re: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG Listening to: Mlton Babbitt: piano works, Robert Taub piano. Iannis Xenakis: Phlegra, Jalons, Keren, Nomos Alpha, Thallein. Babbitt is a fine example of twelve tone, and having his ideas expressed on piano i think gives a good feel for the 'tonality' of this type of composition. Xenakis is another story, to be honest i don't know how much attention he pays to tonality, other than it is neither traditional nor twelve tone. A while ago someone asked if Morton Subotnick was still composing, i beleave he still is, although the last work of his i purchased (The Key To Songs; Return) was published in 1986. He has co/authored a book which on first glance seems to be tied in with somantics (or semiotics) and music. Fred Frith's "The Technology Of Tears" seems to be akin to Subotnick's style. Enough "old school" discography, there ya go. I haven't actually tried microtonal composition. Maybe i should start with quarter tones (i hope this is right) which could lead to a total of 24 possible notes. It wouldn't be that hard to dedicate two midi channels to a single timbre, having one ch detuned for the 1/4 step. (my synth set up doesn't allow for compression of the octave). Do i need to exhume Harry Partch? And what about the Aphex twin. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 18:49:36 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Thomas DiGiovanni Subject: Re: Cakewalk and wave files In-Reply-To: In reply to your message of TUE 04 OCT 1994 09:34:54 EST I've been working with a wave station (I'm not sure which one - I think it's the one that comes with the SoundBlaster package) and would like to import waves into Cakewalk Pro.(3.0) I have been able to get as far as importing a wave as a solo voice, but it won't play with voices from my other MIDI source. (A Yamaha 110, I think) Any suggestions, no matter how elemtary they are, are welcome. Thanks in advance... -Tom D. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 18:04:46 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Macalester College Music Department Subject: Re: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Tue, 04 Oct 1994 16:56:42 -0400 (EDT)" <01HHVXCHSX3YAFVQWB@macalstr.edu> "Mr. Nutley et al" re subotnick and is he composing still... Ohhhh yes. Check out "All My Hummingbirds Have Alibis", a work for CD ROM which came out in 1992. On the same release is "5 Scenes from an Imaginary Ballet". The CD ROM environment is only slowly being explored as a composers venue, rather that just a way to "record" music. Imagine a piece which could go in several different directions, at the control of the listener, much like the "Create your own Novel" stories teens read. The listener could preprogram the various available choices before letting the piece play, or, respond to prompts during the performance such as "for more energy select trac 3, for more quiet select trac 4" or whatever. With the price of hardware needed to write to CD ROM coming down, it is not impossible to be able to afford the equipment now. Something on the order of 1,000's instead of 10's of 1,000's. The "Hummingbirds" CD contains much information about Mort's use of current technology in his recent pieces too as well as the concept behind the programming...some very minimal interactive stuff included, but not directly concerning the composition, rather just accessing various information options. +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Ed Forner Macalester College Music Department + + in%"forner@macalstr.edu" voice (612) 696-6189 + +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 18:22:24 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Macalester College Music Department Subject: Re: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Tue, 04 Oct 1994 16:56:42 -0400 (EDT)" <01HHVXCHSX3YAFVQWB@macalstr.edu> To Leo T Nutley...sorry I forgot to ask this on my other posting...you mention a book by Subotnick...title please?? I would like to see it. Thanks +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Ed Forner Macalester College Music Department + + in%"forner@macalstr.edu" voice (612) 696-6189 + +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:27:18 PDT Reply-To: Ron Lunde Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ron Lunde Subject: Funny sounds? Pleasant sounds? I know this is slightly tangential to "music", but can anyone give me some pointers to any research done on "tones", such as those used by telephones, computer beeps, trucks backing up, office paging systems, and so on? In particular, I'm looking for criteria to use for evaluating the sound effects we develop (obviously, asking a bunch of people if a sound is "funny", or "pleasant", or "urgent" is probably the easiest and best approach to check them, once produced, but there are an infinite number of possibilities...it'd be handy to be looking in the right place to begin with... (Most of our effort right now is going towards "funny" sounds.) If you'd like to hear what we've got so far (and if you want some free, commercial-quality, very silly, Windows software, in general), send any email to "sound@coolsoft.com". It'll send back an automatic response telling you how to get our free software and initial sound effects. (This is free, not shareware. We're not selling anything, by this.) But if you can tell me how to synthesize funny sounds, or if you have ideas, I'd sure love to hear them! Thanks, -- Ron Lunde ronl@coolsoft.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 15:25:49 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: chords > Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 09:58:49 BST > From: att!AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-emusic-l > Subject: Re: chords > > + meane augmented, raise the fifth a semitone > o (in the air) is diminished, flat third, flat five and a sixth When I took music theory in college, o was used to indicate a diminished triad. o Example 1a: Ab --> Ab Cbb Ebb o Example 2a: G# --> G# B D A half diminished seventh chord is indicated by o7 which puts the major seventh on top of the triad. o Example 1b: Ab 7 --> Ab Cbb Ebb G o Example 2b: G# 7 --> G# B D F# A fully diminished seventh chord is indicated by d7 which puts the minor seventh on top of the triad. d Example 1b: Ab 7 --> Ab Cbb Ebb Gb d Example 2b: G# 7 --> G# B D F There! I think I've beaten the dead horse! :-) Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 21:42:15 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Siberian Khatru Subject: Re: chords In-Reply-To: <9410050142.AA20439@keller.clarke.edu> Bill, Sorry, but in your post you said that the raised "o" was for half-diminished when used with seventh chords...unless every other music text I've seen is wrong, you're looking for the raised "o" with a slash through it when representing a half-diminished seventh chord. And then, to make matters worse, the fully-diminished seventh chord is represented by the sole, raised "o" (I've never seen a "d" used...not to say that it doesn't happen). Please bear in mind, Bill, that this is NOT a flame, I just wanted to set things straight. Oh, that poor, poor horse. Jon Southwood jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu ****************************************************************************** "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem. They're there every night, they see it done every night, the see how it should be done every night, but they can't do it themselves."-Brendan Behan ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 21:46:34 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Siberian Khatru Subject: Re: chords In-Reply-To: <9410050142.AA20439@keller.clarke.edu> Sorry to even further this bludgeoning of the poor, dead horse, but I just noticed a further error in Bill's explanations of the chords. In a fully-diminished seventh chord, it is a DIMINISHED seventh which is added to the diminished triad (enharmonic to a major sixth-->C, Eb, Gb, Bbb(A) ). In a half-diminished seventh chord, it is a MINOR seventh which is added to the diminished triad (ie.-->C, Eb, Gb, Bb). Once again, not a flame, just a correction. Jon Southwood jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu ****************************************************************************** "Critics are like eunuchs in a harem. They're there every night, they see it done every night, the see how it should be done every night, but they can't do it themselves."-Brendan Behan ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 19:21:47 GMT+07 Reply-To: Ivan@hme.ee.itb.ac.id Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: IC 104 Permana Organization: Himpunan Mahasiswa Elektro ITB Subject: hello everybody Hi ! I'm from Indonesia. I'm a new member of this discussion. I use korg M1 as my synthesizer. We connect the keyboard to computer via sound blaster card.I've made some song with it. I'm having a trouble with knowing the masters of this stuff. Can you help me ? Here we have some Indonesian musician who can play MIDI very well. For example the Kla Project Group. Their song 'Yogyakarta' is the best MIDI song in Indonesia (at least I think). I've made this music to voyetra. Anybody Interested ? I hope I can contribute and get something from this society. Here in ITB I feel like lone ranger. :-) Ivan Cahya Permana Music is my life !!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 02:47:42 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Jody Whitesides." Subject: Re: Electric Guitar Distortion Well I'll tell ya... I use a Mesa/Boogie Tri-axis, and I have to say that it is the most versatile pre-amp I've ever used. It has full real-time midi control and just about every sound from the cleanest cleans to the dirtiest distortion. I've had digitechs and ADAs but the MB Tri-axis blows 'em all away. Chuss! Jody Whitesides "It's what's played between the notes that's golden." Amalgam@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 21:04:50 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: TASCAM DA88 Hi folks, I'd be a bit worried about the DA88. Pairs of tracks are multiplexed. When you record onto track 1, the machine reads 1 and 2 and re-writes 1 and 2. On the other hand, the ADAT has discrete tracks which makes it safer for recording, drop-outs and error correction. Need something more sophisticated? Look at the Fostex ADAT compatible machine. It's supposed the be pretty good. Regards, David. P.S. The Australian Broadcasting Corporation was looking at some of these machines and I heard they were also reticent about the DA88. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 21:25:15 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura Hi Keith, thanks for the clarification. >While refering to pop music in general, my statement really was in regards to works self referential to the degree that their emotional/deep structure content is rarified to the point of faliure in establishing communication with listners. Dear me. You aren't one of these people who thinks emotion is somehow encoded in music, are you? If so, please explain how. I've yet to hear a convincing explanation (even after Langer, Meyer, Kivy, et. al.). Try reading John Shepherd's "Music as Social Process" (Polity Press, 1991). I haven't made up my mind yet, but he certainly gives a refreshing slant to the argument. Sorry, I've no time at present to elaborate. If you can't track this dowm, I would be happy to reply at another time. Regards, David. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:34:25 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura >Dear me. You aren't one of these people who thinks emotion is somehow encoded >in music, are you? If so, please explain how. I've yet to hear a convincing >explanation (even after Langer, Meyer, Kivy, et. al.). I'm afraid I can't remember the researcher's name, and my tape of it now has "Earth vs. The Spider" on top of it now, but I do remember a NOVA special in which a researcher was trying to come up with audio "shapes" denoting different emotions. He had done some cross-cultural work that seemed to confirm that there were correlations between these shapes and emotional states. --- Joe M. -- "At the end of the hour, we'll have information on the sedatives used by the artists,,," (MST3K) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:37:20 +662900 Reply-To: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Organization: Heinous Owners Club And Persons With Nine Letter Names Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <199410042316.SAA29534.198A7@heinous.isca.uiowa.edu> On Tue, 4 Oct 1994, Keith Bowers wrote: > I was being intentionaly obscure here. While refering to pop music in > general, my statement really was in regards to works self referential to the > degree that their emotional/deep structure content is rarified to the point > of faliure in establishing communication with listners. Which works? Which listeners? "Communication" according to a technical description, such as Shannon and Weaver, or in some metaphysical, metaphorical, non-specific, questionably meaningful, sense? If someone calls me on the phone, and I don't pick it up, did that person "fail to establish communication"? What, specifically, does Beethoven "communicate" to an audience? Is Beethoven a *good* composer because he communicates the notion that attendance at orchestral concerts is a sign of upward mobility? As for "emotion", the fact that music can *convey* emotion does not mean that music can *contain* emotion. I'd be interested in seeing anyone demonstrate that emotion is a thing that can be contained by anything, even people. Of course, if you simply accept that no music has any emotional *content*, you won't have to suffer disappointment that a search for such content comes up empty. > I remember well Michael Gielen being chased from his music directors post in > Cincinnati during the 80's for programing what was, in the orchestra's view, > too many 2nd V. school works. This was actually a revolt on the part of > professional orchestra musicians who would presumably have an advanced > understanding of musical syntax. If Schoenberg and his followers works were > so self referntial that even professional musicians could not or would not be > able to make the links that make a work transcend being a historical > curiosity what is to be expected from the general concert going public? Counter-anecdote: The New York Phil protested the appearance of Glenn Gould as a soloist with them only 30-some years ago. If the collective intelligence of that orchestra can be so wide of the mark, I'd imagine that the folks in the Cincinatti orchestra may have simply made a well-intentioned mistake. > It is In this way I speak of Schoenberg's faliure. HIs solution to the > problems of construting works resulted in either the loss of deep structures > that are intrinsic to musical communication or so revolutonary that the > general listener needs another 100 years to catch up. Well, the "general listener" doesn't have the slightest clue about rocket science, either. Interestingly enough, NASA's funding has recently been going downhill. It sounds to me like Schoenberg isn't the one who "failed". The fact that a large group of people don't understand Schoenberg doesn't really prove much of anything. What's more interesting to me is to investigate what it is they think they "understand" about the music which they believe they *do* understand. The music of J. S. Bach was largely unknown outside of professional music circles until Mendelssohn and others started including Bach regularly on concert programs. As I recall, that was about 75 years after Bach's death. It hasn't been 75 years since the death of Schoenberg yet. To borrow a phrase, I suspect that reports on the "death" of Schoenberg's music are premature. That's my 4 half-pennies for today. -- Kirk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dr. Kirk Corey [insert Electronic Systems Administrator kirk-corey@uiowa.edu disclaimer School of Music here] The University of Iowa "Msdos? MSDOS? I've seen CALCULATORS with a better operating system!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:11:18 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura > Hi Keith, > thanks for the clarification. > > >While refering to pop music in > general, my statement really was in regards to works self referential to the > degree that their emotional/deep structure content is rarified to the point > of faliure in establishing communication with listners. > > Dear me. You aren't one of these people who thinks emotion is somehow encoded > in music, are you? If so, please explain how. I've yet to hear a convincing I distinctly hear the crackle of the old emotion-in-music flames coming back to life. I don't think anyone will ever quite sort out to what degree music is inherently emotional. It may be that at some core level there's some sort of universal emotional response to certain musical phenomenon, but after that the bulk of it is cultural. Music expresses what we decide it expresses. In western music a tremendously large percent of what constitutes expression is based upon the treatment of consonance and dissonance. What constitutes consonance and dissonance is also determined by convention, although the harmonic series lies at the root of it. If indeed there is any "absolute" emotion in music, I would say it must relate to the way in which we respond to the harmonic series. Generally, the closer to the fundamental you get, the more consonant the interval is. I'm no ethnomusicologist, but of all the "world musics" I've heard there are precious few that don't use the unison, fifth and octave as points of rest. In western music the perfect fourth is for some reason considered dissonant, because we've come to prefer the more distant interval of the third (distant in terms of its relation to the fundamental of the harmonic series, that is. Also, parenthetically, Schoenberg used to maintain that his music wasn't really atonal, he was just exploring the more extremely distant intervals of the harmonic series). So, when we come to mixing consonant and dissonant intervals in music we demand that the dissonance should resolve to a consonance, and we specify the manner in which it should be resolved. It is considered expressive to use dissonance and then resolve it in the manner specified. It is also considered expressive to set up a dissonance and resolve it in a manner other than the one usually specified. It is also considered expressive to set up a dissonance in the prescribed manner and not resolve it at all, or to introduce a dissonance in a non-prescribed manner and then resolve it in the conventional way. In all case it is assumed that the listener comes equipped with an extremely detailed set of expectations and that the music will constantly refer back to this "database" and move the listener either by conforming to or frustrating his expectations. Atonal music may be said to be "self-referential" in that it rejects all the consonance/dissonance-based expectations of the audience, which as I said before, makes up a very large bulk of what we've come to consider emotional. In the 12-tone system, tonal and intervalic relations are determined by the row chosen by the composer, rather than from the collective memory bank of the audience. Schoenberg himself used the phrase "12 tones related only to each other". So if atonal music appears to lack emotion it's because we haven't come up with a conventional way to respond to it. Perhaps we never will. There's no law that says we have to. If audiences want to stay away from atonal music, there ain't nothin' that's gonna stop 'em. There are other conventions that I haven't mentioned which deal with rhythm and melodic/motivic repetition. Most, perhaps all of the atonal music that I like makes generous use of these conventions. Enough, already! Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:05:30 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: chords Jon and I continue to bludgeon that poor, dead horse! I think that either I learned a different system than Jon (o and d vs. slashed o and o) making us both right or my mid 70s music theory classes are too far back in history for me to remember things clearly! Upon rechecking rules in the back of my mind, I recall that all intervals in the fully diminished seventh chord are minor thirds. That makes Jon correct that the root to seventh interval is a diminished seventh, not a minor seventh like I had (mis-)stated. (Damn!) Neigh! Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com .........................................................Women Respond to Bass - Tamara Palmer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:21:42 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Michael D. Whitten" Subject: deep structure in obscura Joe McMahon wrote, >>Dear me. You aren't one of these people who thinks emotion is somehow encoded >>in music, are you? If so, please explain how. I've yet to hear a convincing >>explanation (even after Langer, Meyer, Kivy, et. al.). > >I'm afraid I can't remember the researcher's name, and my tape of it now >has "Earth vs. The Spider" on top of it now, but I do remember a NOVA >special in which a researcher was trying to come up with audio "shapes" >denoting different emotions. He had done some cross-cultural work that >seemed to confirm that there were correlations between these shapes and >emotional states. > > --- Joe M. "Earth vs The Spider" WAS the NOVA episode, Joe! Seriously, I also recall reading in Scientific American about what is probably this same researcher and his investigations. The best example he discovered about one-to-one correspondence between music and human emotion is this: an ascending-and-terminating pitch denotes happy while a descending-and-terminating pitch denotes sadness. This idea seems to permeate all languages, primitive, musical, and otherwise - according to this particular researcher. If someone can remember which SA this was.... post it! best wishes, Michael ---------------------------------------------------------- Michael Whitten | m-whit2@vm1.spcs.umn.edu | mw@lenti.med.umn.edu | "Sentience is over-rated." ---------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:48:35 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Magnus Barber Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <"26258 Wed Oct 5 13:36:12 1994"@bnr.co.uk> Hi! I haven't followed the discussion - I only read a mail from Joe M by chance about emotion in music, and a scientist with "shapes" corresponding to music.... forgive me if it's already mentioned or not interesting! I read an article in New Scientist (or somesuch) saying that certain frequencies affect the human body/mind in certain ways. For example, low frequencies - especially in lively rythm can give feelings of euphoria, aggression or simmilar. Other frequencies have other effects. mb ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 09:07:33 PST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Roger I. Ramnath" Subject: Re[2]: Electric Guitar Distortion >Well I'll tell ya... >I use a Mesa/Boogie Tri-axis, and I have to say that it is the most versatile >pre-amp I've ever used. It has full real-time midi control and just about >every sound from the cleanest cleans to the dirtiest distortion. I've had >digitechs and ADAs but the MB Tri-axis blows 'em all away. >Chuss! >Jody Whitesides >"It's what's played between the notes that's golden." >Amalgam@aol.com I used to say, "Analog or digital distortion is just as good as tube distortion" but that was before I really explored the sound you get from a quality tube amp. I used to use an MXR Distortion + pedal, a Hiwatt 100 wt amp, a Rockman, a Yamaha combo amp, and probably a bunch of other set-ups I can't remember. I now have a Mesa Boogie Mark IV, the best investment I've ever made for my guitar setup. Killer cleans, nasty distortion, and everything inbetween. I would swear by them. Roger (who doesn't work for, or is indorsed by Mesa Boogie, although I wouldn't mind a free amp or two) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:19:14 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura > > Well, the "general listener" doesn't have the slightest clue about rocket > science, either. Interestingly enough, NASA's funding has recently been > going downhill. It sounds to me like Schoenberg isn't the one who > "failed". The fact that a large group of people don't understand > Schoenberg doesn't really prove much of anything. What's more interesting > to me is to investigate what it is they think they "understand" about the > music which they believe they *do* understand. Here we have the old academic "who cares if you listen" attitude that so pervades the ivy towers of our university music departments. Academic composers like Babbitt (whose sentiments you echo in this posting) are nothing more than frustrated scientist wannabes. Yeah, wouldn't it be great if the music department could get all that nifty equipment and lavish facilities that the physics dept. gets, with no one outside the discipline looking too hard at what you're doing. Well music ain't rocket science. Provided you've done your calculations correctly, a rocket will fly. But a piece of music doesn't fly until the folks out in the audience who don't know a retrograde inversion from a backhoe sit up and go "Wow, this stuff is really great! When can I hear this again?!!" If they don't, you may still win your Pulitzer Prize. You may even have a better chance of winning it if they don't. But ultimately your music is dead as Lenin if people won't listen to it and enjoy it. That's just the way it is. Mark Simon mgs2cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:58:30 LCL Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <9410051514.AA17152@ursa-major.spdcc.com> ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Content-Lines: 11 X-Sun-Content-Length: 757 The comments on various frequencies having different effects brought an old story to mind. I knew a bass player about 15-20 years back who had read some article that particular low frequencies could cause orgasms. He asked me (in all seriousness) how he could rig up some device that would play these low frequencies while he gigged, therebye increasing his chances of meeting --shall we say-- interesting friends. There are small bits of evidence that suggest certain effects, but these effects are quite weak and are generally obliterated when the environment is rich in stimuli. As far as placing strict emotional meaning on various frequencies, it's probably a good idea to make sure those same emotions are also conveyed by more reproducable means. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:25:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG "Xenakis is another story, to be honest i don't know how much attention he pays to tonality, other than it is neither traditional nor twelve tone." He doesn't. With him it has to do with issues of chaos theory. Seems scary, but he writes great music. Really cool emusic, too. "A while ago someone asked if Morton Subotnick was still composing, i beleave he still is, " Your correct, he is. And he's still at CalArts. "He has co/authored a book which on first glance seems to be tied in with somantics (or semiotics) and music. " Are you thinking of the other Subotnick, the musicologist? "Enough "old school" discography, there ya go." "I haven't actually tried microtonal composition. Maybe i should start with quarter tones (i hope this is right) which could lead to a total of 24 possible notes. It wouldn't be that hard to dedicate two midi channels to a single timbre, having one ch detuned for the 1/4 step. (my synth set up doesn't allow for compression of the octave)." "Do i need to exhume Harry Partch?" Not exhume, but do listen to him. Check out the mag 1/1, and microtonal list, and don't forget Ezra Sims (he uses 12 tones per whole step), James Tenney, or Ben Johnston, to name a few. >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU by ucsd.edu; id PAA29306 sendmail 8.6.9/UCSD-2 >Message-Id: <199410042213.PAA29306@ucsd.edu> >Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU by AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with >Received: from AMERICAN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@AUVM) by AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (LM >Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 16:56:42 EDT >Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List >Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List >From: "Leo T. Nutley" >Subject: Re: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG >Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@american.edu >To: Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L >X-CCaddr: Bcc: peter mueller AT ucsdlibrary >X-CCaddr: *To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU at @UCSD ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:31:42 MST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" Subject: Re: frequency orgasms more stupid stories, I have heard the same story about frequencies however the story I heard was that a certain frequecy caused you bladder to let go if exposed constantly to it for about seven minutes. Even though I created this low frequency and looped it (the woofer was massively vibrating) I wondered if the amp and the woofers would even be able to reproduce a frequency that low??? Never finished the test though. If anyone wants to try I can dig up the fequency. thare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:36:12 +662900 Reply-To: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Organization: Heinous Owners Club And Persons With Nine Letter Names Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <199410051622.LAA02131.198A7@heinous.isca.uiowa.edu> On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Mark G Simon wrote: > Here we have the old academic "who cares if you listen" attitude that so > pervades the ivy towers of our university music departments. Academic > composers like Babbitt (whose sentiments you echo in this posting) are > nothing more than frustrated scientist wannabes. Yeah, wouldn't it be > great if the music department could get all that nifty equipment and > lavish facilities that the physics dept. gets, with no one outside the > discipline looking too hard at what you're doing. Babbitt didn't choose "Who Cares if You Listen" as the title of the article in question. In fact, he protested the choice of that title. The blame doesn't lie with him. Babbitt does in fact care who listens, so far as I can tell. At the risk of requiring future need of my asbestos undies :), if Babbitt et al. sound like "scientist wannabees" to you, perhaps their detractors sound like "folks who are mad they didn't get a job teaching music at " to others. We'd probably do best to nip this train of thought in the bud, if you'll pardon my mix-and-match cliches. > Well music ain't rocket science. Provided you've done your calculations > correctly, a rocket will fly. But a piece of music doesn't fly until the > folks out in the audience who don't know a retrograde inversion from a > backhoe sit up and go "Wow, this stuff is really great! When can I hear > this again?!!" How many folks have to clap before you think the music has achieved its metaphorical flight? Is majority rule a criterion for musical quality? Agreed, music ain't rocket science. But it ain't the Miss Universe Dog And Pony Show, either. > If they don't, you may still win your Pulitzer Prize. You may even have a > better chance of winning it if they don't. But ultimately your music is > dead as Lenin if people won't listen to it and enjoy it. That's just the > way it is. Yup. But as long as one single person in the audience has a clue concerning what I'm saying, my music is as alive as Lennon's. :) As for the Pulitzer, I don't give one hoot for it. Remember what Ives had to say about that one: "Prizes are for children. I'm grown up." Or something like that. -- Kirk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dr. Kirk Corey [insert Electronic Systems Administrator kirk-corey@uiowa.edu disclaimer School of Music here] The University of Iowa "Msdos? MSDOS? I've seen CALCULATORS with a better operating system!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:51:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: chords "Jon and I continue to bludgeon that poor, dead horse! I think that either I learned a different system than Jon (o and d vs. slashed o and o) making us both right or my mid 70s music theory classes are too far back in history for me to remember things clearly! Upon rechecking rules in the back of my mind, I recall that all intervals in the fully diminished seventh chord are minor thirds. That makes Jon correct that the root to seventh interval is a diminished seventh, not a minor seventh like I had (mis-)stated. (Damn!)" Just to make this even more confusing, if not obtuse, but some theorists discribe the root, or the functional root, of a fully diminished seventh being an imaginary tone a major third below one of the real tones. This makes it function like a dominant chord. One way to figure out which one of the four possible imaginary tones is the functional root is to find the root of the resolving chord and it's dominant should be what the dim.7 is acting as. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:14:51 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Thom Subject: Re: frequency orgasms Gee this would be wild!!! I once wrote a piece (never performed) called "Joey in Ecstasy" for baritone and tape. What a climax this would be. [Thom chuckles and is embarrassed by the pun] t ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:23:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: deep structure in obscura Yup. But as long as one single person in the audience has a clue concerning what I'm saying, my music is as alive as Lennon's. :) I agree. It may not be commercially viable, but I'm not in this business for the big bucks (not that I would turn it down, and I do like those royalty checks when orchestras play my music), but I write modern music because its the kind of music I like best. Maybe its because my parents exposed me to Webern when I was four. And yes, I do listen to Babbitt or Xenakis after a hard day at the office. :-) -Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:05:39 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Evan Jones Subject: CALL FOR SHORT ALGORITHMIC COMPOSITIONS >>>>>>>> CALL FOR ALGORITHMIC SHORTS <<<<<<<< The APRIL IN SANTA CRUZ Festival of Contemporary Music at the University of California Santa Cruz announces a call for SHORT algorithmic musical compositions to be performed in April 1995 as part of our annual celebration of new music. The compositions may be for small ensemble, solo performer, or MIDI piano (Yamaha Disklavier). Perhaps 30 algorithmic compositions will be performed. HOW SHORT? We mean REALLY short, damn it -- 15 seconds to about 3 minutes or so. SLIGHTLY longer pieces may be considered. WHAT DO YOU MEAN ALGORITHMIC? Our call is for musical compositions in which the set of "instructions" (algorithms) which the composer has undertaken (or given to the performers) is... ...elegantly concise, perhaps elegantly elaborated... ...integrated, whole, original... ...intriguingly transparent in the musical sound... We hope to receive compositions as different, one from another, as James Tenney's "Chromatic Canon", Pauline Oliveros' "Sonic Meditations", Iannis Xenakis' "Atrees", and certain selections from Cage's "Songbooks" ...only SHORTER! SUBMIT WHAT? -Score (and cassette tape if available), and/or -a MIDI file designed to be realized on Yamaha Disklavier. -Program notes and a SHORT Bio. (Text-only files on MacIntosh Disk are preferred.) -Optionally: an image of a page from the score or any other abstraction representing the algorithm underlying the composition. For inclusion in the program. -If return of these materials is desired: a SASE. Instrumental parts must be available IMMEDIATELY in January if a work is selected for performance. MAX patches designed specifically for Disklavier are welcome and will be implemented in MAX for the actual performance; but a standard MIDI file representing a sample realization of the patch must be submitted for consideration at this time. DEADLINE? All materials must be received no later than JANUARY 15, 1995. Please submit no more than two pieces. (Remember to include SASE if return of materials is desired.) Selections will be made by FEBRUARY 1, 1995 by a jury of three composers. COMPOSITION AT UCSC: Regular Composition Faculty at UCSC includes: David Cope, David Evan Jones, Hi Kyung Kim, Gordon Mumma (emeritus). Guest composer for this years APRIL IN SANTA CRUZ is James Tenney. TO: David Evan Jones, Director APRIL IN SANTA CRUZ Music Department University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 QUESTIONS: DEJ@CATS.UCSC.EDU ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: BIGGERSTAFF THAD LEWIS Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <01HHWV509D6A99WFSY@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU> On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Michael D. Whitten wrote: > Seriously, I also recall reading in Scientific American about what is > probably this same researcher and his investigations. The best example > he discovered about one-to-one correspondence between music and human emotion > is this: an ascending-and-terminating pitch denotes happy while a > descending-and-terminating pitch denotes sadness. This idea seems to > permeate all languages, primitive, musical, and otherwise - according to > this particular researcher. If someone can remember which SA this was.... > post it! Just got into this discussion and strangely enough, I yesterday picked up a couple of books which deal with this topic (somewhat). Sadly, I don't have them with me now. One is titled Biomusicology and the other is titled Mind Brain and Music (or something general like that). Anyhow, I have had time to only scim through these so far, but one specific researcher caught my eye. He translated muscular movement from peoples fingertips who were experiencing a certain emotion (joy, anger, etc.) into sound waves, then auditioned these sound waves to listeners who could in turn discern what "original" emotion they represented. He duplicated these results in different cultures. Of course, I can't remeber his name right now either. And I didn't read enough to understand how this translation was actually managed/rationalized. Any body else out there heard anything about this or critical evaluations of this? This slant on music is in my eyes both intriquing and dangerous, and thus of course makes me curious about other work/research in this area... I'll write on this later, once I have those books in front of me. -Thad P.s. I'd love to know which Scientific American issue it was too... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:42:48 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura > > Babbitt didn't choose "Who Cares if You Listen" as the title of the > article in question. In fact, he protested the choice of that title. The > blame doesn't lie with him. Babbitt does in fact care who listens, so far > as I can tell. Doesn't matter who chose the title. If the shoe fits, wear it. "Who cares if you listen" perfectly describes the contents of his famous article, protest all he may. When the NY Phil played his "Relata I" and union regulations forbade the taping of the performance, he was upset (as any composer would be), but for that the stated reason that the real people he intended the music for [i.e. his fellow profs] wouldn't get to hear it while people who didn't matter [i.e. the general public] would. Clearly the only ones he cares about hearing his music are his fellow academics. Sorry, that's not good enough for me. > At the risk of requiring future need of my asbestos undies :), if Babbitt > et al. sound like "scientist wannabees" to you, perhaps their detractors > sound like "folks who are mad they didn't get a job teaching music at > " to others. We'd probably do best > to nip this train of thought in the bud, if you'll pardon my mix-and-match > cliches. You're putting the cart before the horse. They -- let's drop the pretense -- I am not teaching at because I disagreed with the academic attitudes I found there and wouldn't write the academic kind of music. It was my choice and I've paid dearly for it, and I still pay dearly for it. This is how strongly I believe in my position. > > How many folks have to clap before you think the music has achieved its > metaphorical flight? Is majority rule a criterion for musical quality? > Agreed, music ain't rocket science. But it ain't the Miss Universe Dog > And Pony Show, either. In my opinion the best audience for music, paradoxically perhaps, are scientists. And I mean real scientists, not wannabes like Babbitt. Go to any physics or chemistry department and you'll find a whole slew of people who sing or play instruments quite proficiently. They also show up faithfully at the local concerts. These are intelligent people, and they enjoy music and listen intelligently. They applaud Bach and Brahms, and if they want something more contemporary they'll put on Brian Eno. They won't listen to Milton Babbitt or Anton Webern or Brian Ferneyhough. They deal with dry calculations all day in their work. Why should they have it in their music. OK this is generalizing. Scientists are as individual as anybody else, but the point is, it's not a choice between pandering to the dunderheads who scream at Jesus Jones concerts or licking the butts of egg-headed professors. There are intelligent listeners out there who have concluded that orchestras, string quartets, opera, the whole works are irrelevant bullshit because they only do dead composers, or modern composers who sound worse than dead. They're turning away from "classical" music altogether. We can't just say "fuck em all, what do they know" or "75 years from now I'll be as famous as Beethoven". Hell, 75 years from now there'll be no more orcestras to play your mighty masterworks, or Schoenberg's, or Mozart's or anyone else's. It is absolutely essential for the survival of the art that we "serious" composers cultivate a sizable audience of whatever intelligent people there are outside of the "new music" community, in fact outside of the music community altogether. No, we don't have to be able to fill monster stadium concerts like the rock groups do, but this small tiny tiny minority of a minority "new music" community is entirely too "self-referential". > > > If they don't, you may still win your Pulitzer Prize. You may even have a > > better chance of winning it if they don't. But ultimately your music is > > dead as Lenin if people won't listen to it and enjoy it. That's just the > > way it is. > > Yup. But as long as one single person in the audience has a clue > concerning what I'm saying, my music is as alive as Lennon's. :) I presume that one person is your mother. Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 11:50:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: frequency orgasms Gee this would be wild!!! I once wrote a piece (never performed) called "Joey in Ecstasy" for baritone and tape. What a climax this would be. [Thom chuckles and is embarrassed by the pun] t Hey. Does this have anything to do with that Don Martino piece "Stripsody" for solo percussion? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:05:25 -0300 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Diego Basch Subject: Re: frequency orgasms In-Reply-To: <94Oct5.145916arg.18474@secyt.gov.ar>; from "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" at Oct 5, 94 2:31 pm > > I have heard the same story about frequencies however > the story I heard was that a certain frequecy caused > you bladder to let go if exposed constantly to it for > about seven minutes. Even though I created this ........... > even be able to reproduce a frequency that low??? > Never finished the test though. If anyone wants to > try I can dig up the fequency. > > thare Yes, please. I'd like to try. But if it's lower than 20 Hz, I doubt I can make it sound through a regular sound system. Imagine, seven minutes of that sound at a college cafeteria! :-) -- Diego M. Basch dbasch@delec.edu.ar Universidad de Buenos Aires, Argentina ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:26:07 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Leo T. Nutley" Subject: Re: frequency and bio responce Magnus Barber sez > I read an article in New Scientist (or somesuch) >saying that > certain frequencies affect the human body/mind in >certain ways. > For example, low frequencies - especially in lively >rythm can give > feelings of euphoria, aggression or simmilar. Other >frequencies > have other effects. i remember going through a book on reggae music, and there was this drawing of a very happy dreadlocked fellow, and next to him was this chart with a range of frequencies (incl. subharmonic) with little arrows pointing to various parts of his body. the blurb underneath briefly explained that the body's organs act as resonating chambers, respinding to various sounds, and that dancing was a responce to the effects of those sounds. kinda funny intro to the subject. i wouldn't mind hearing about sound and it's effects on brainwave states (ie alpha, theta, delta), how frequency can affect alertness, relaxation, sleep or meditation. the info i have so far: 0.5 - 4.05 hz = delta, or an endorphin releasing state. 4.0 - 8.0 hz = theta or a learning/receptive state. 8.0 - 12.0 hz = alpha or a meditative state. 12.0 + hz (< 20) = beta, concentration(?). i also recall seeing elsewhere the plans for a subharmonic generator, a huge tube powered by a likewise huge fan or blowerer, that was supposed to produce enough dB's to affect everyone in, say, a quarter mile radius. of course the tome would be too low to "hear". the instructions promised euphoric feelings along with a loss of bodily functions. enough leo ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 12:50:53 MST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" Subject: Re: frequency orgasms Off the top of my head I believe the bladder frequecy is 7 Hz. Have fun. thare ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 15:14:20 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Harry F.P. Haecker" Subject: Re[2]: frequency and bio responce >the instructions promised euphoric feelings along with a loss of bodily >functions. This had better *NOT* work, or the government will begin Congressional hearings on how to outlaw certain sound frequencies, or prohibit their use by minors...or require a license/tax to listen! ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:29:57 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: hello everybody In-Reply-To: <199410050444.VAA23536@mail2.netcom.com> from "IC 104 Permana" at Sep 24, 94 07:21:47 pm IC 104 Permana says > >Hi ! > >I'm from Indonesia. I'm a new member of this discussion. I use korg M1 as my >synthesizer. We connect the keyboard to computer via sound blaster card.I've >made some song with it. > >I'm having a trouble with knowing the masters of this stuff. Can you help me ? >Here we have some Indonesian musician who can play MIDI very well. For example >the Kla Project Group. Their song 'Yogyakarta' is the best MIDI song in >Indonesia (at least I think). I've made this music to voyetra. Anybody >Interested ? This is interesting! We don't hear often from your part of the world; welcome to EMUSIC-L. By 'MIDI' songs do you refer to music made with professional MIDI gear, or are you more interested in music created on computer-based sound card platforms? In other words, is this song you're offering something that is merely MIDI data, or is it actually sampled sound to be played back on a soundcard f some sort? >I hope I can contribute and get something from this society. Here in ITB I feel >like lone ranger. I can believe it. I've been on the net for eight years and you're the first Indonseian musician I've seen here (though my memory is poor in some areas). I would like to hear more about how electronics are being integrated into the traditional and popular music styles of your country; this list has at least one American gamelan player, but a perspective from Indonesia itself would be very nice. I would also like to suggest that you subscribe to SYNTH-L, also at this list server, for discussions of technical matters and particular pieces of music equipment. >:-) Ivan Cahya Permana > Music is my life !!! I know the feeling ;-> mike -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bumper stickers advertising BREAK, a new weekly entertainment newspaper for ultra-jammin' Tallahassee, Florida, read: "Even shit doesn't happen here." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:22:08 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: frequency orgasms In-Reply-To: <199410051817.LAA09410@mail2.netcom.com> from "Thom" at Oct 5, 94 02:14:51 pm In response to a few requests via privte email (y'all know who you are), I'd like to say a thing or two on the subject of emotional/physical responses to sound and music. I've done a bit of reading and experimenting on the subject, and can share some admittedly fragmentary and occasionally anecdotal evidence with you. In that light, let me pass along what little I know.... I am a physicist, but not an acoustician. My background in the field consists of the basic wave mechanics and resonance theory any physical scientist is expected to know, augmented somewhat by my years of work in electronic music in and out of academia. I have spoken to, and worked in the studio with, several people with more experience than I in the field, including Dr. John Rossi III, a name that might be familiar to some of you. John 3, when he's not yanking people's chains on the Net, is a Ph.D. in neuropharmacology and studies physical reactions to external stimuli, including sound. I will paraphrase some of what he told me, a bit later. I have on record the following anecdotal evidence for physiological effects of sounds: An article in the USENET newsgroup rec.music.synth two years ago reported that a programmer discovered the following text "buried in the online help" for the function sound() within Borland C++ 3.0. [begin quote] /* Emits a 7-Hz tone for 10 seconds. True story: 7 Hz is the resonant frequency of a chicken's skull cavity. This was determined empirically in Australia, where a new factory generating 7-Hz tones was located too close to a chicken ranch: When the factory started up, all the chickens died. Your PC may not be able to emit a 7-Hz tone. */ #include int main(void) { sound(7); delay(10000); nosound(); return 0; } [end quote] I have never attempted to use this code or to verify the original source of the news (Australia is conveniently far away as an apocryphal source); several respondents to this post claimed that they were unable to produce any results on any animals with this code or other means of generating 7 Hz tones. Another interesting story is told by New Age musician Craig Huxley, inventor of the Blaster Beam, an electro-acoustic instrument which is essentially a seventeen-foot steel guitar strung with bridge cables. (It is best known for its use in the soundtrack to STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE, in which the signature theme-tone for the alien ship V'ger was created by striking the Beam hard with a polished artillery-shell casing.) Mr. Huxley reports that at an outdoor concert he gave in New York City several years ago, in which he played the Beam at high amplification for several minutes, several women (between three and six) approached him after the concerts and reported varying degrees of sexual excitement resulting from the tone of the Beam, including two orgasms. Again, this story is apocryphal, and could be complete fabrication on Mr. Huxley's part; it is, however, intriguingly consistent with other information. As for my own experiences, I have had exposure to physical effects of sound in two instances. The first was a sound I created on my Xpander a number of years ago as a sound-effect pad under a piece for my first band project; while it had little or no direct effect on almost anyone who listened to it other than to evoke comments on its nastiness (it was a harsh ring-modulated tone with an effect somewhat like a Shepard tone, as discussed here recently), there was one young woman who reported repeated and consistent feelings of sexual excitement when the sound was played in her presence, and who expressed a strong desire for it to continue after it was turned off. No other individual has ever reported a similar reaction. I was of course interested in pursuing this effect, but had no further luck with it other than to spawn general hilarity on rec.music.synth with my reports on "Project SyntheSex," the text of which is happily lost forever. The second was the whole field of audiogenic seizure activity, to which I was introduced recently by John Rossi III. Apparently some animals (rodents and lower primates) can be stimulated to undergo seizure activity by the application of certain sounds, much in the same way that certain humans can be forced into epileptic seizures by flashing lights. Certain types of animals seize audiogenically rather easily, and their behavior is studied in some subfields of behavioral neuroscience. The circumstances under which these seizures are induced provided me with a link that allowed me to (roughly and crudely) group the common characteristics of all of the abovementioned sounds; namely, amplitude in addition to resonant characteristics. I do not believe that there is a particular soundwave that can induce orgasm, seizure activity, or death merely on its own. I believe that the effects seen here are a complex interaction of individual (species?) physiology, harmonic structure and evolution of timbre, resonant characteristics of the body, and energy transmitted by the sound. For instance, the tacit assumption is made that it was strictly the frequency of 7 Hz that killed the chickens in Australia; I would argue that if it was a factory that caused the deaths, the tone could have come from machinery that generated a high level of sound pressure at that frequency. Further, the Beam at the New York concert was played through a massive sound system at very high volume, and my Xpander patch seemed most effective when played through a 300-watt bass amp with four 15" woofers at high volume. John 3 tells me that audiogenic seizures cannot be induced without extremely high levels of sound input (well above 100 dB SPL). This implies that the deciding factor here is an amount of energy delivered to the body or brain at an appropriate resonant frequency, although that is merely supposition on my part. In conclusion, I would say that in order to reproduce this sort of behavior in humans, one would have to generate whatever sound is believed to work at very high volumes, and that at this time there is no direct evidence that any particular sound wave has a general effect on human beings when played at moderate levels (treating the Huxley story and my experience as statistical flukes). For those who want to experiment on their own, I suggest a lot of bass energy, the largest subwoofers available, suitable ear protection for all concerned, and a keen sense of the ridiculous. And I hope that's all I have to say on this subject. -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bumper stickers advertising BREAK, a new weekly entertainment newspaper for ultra-jammin' Tallahassee, Florida, read: "Even shit doesn't happen here." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:36:58 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: SCHOEN AND MIDIBERG In-Reply-To: <199410042212.PAA24988@mail3.netcom.com> from "Leo T. Nutley" at Oct 4, 94 04:56:42 pm Leo T. Nutley say > >Xenakis is another story, to be honest i don't know how much attention he >pays to tonality, other than it is neither traditional nor twelve tone. Well, i wish I knew more about his work; I've heard a live performance of his percussion piece for the SiXXen, and have heard (once) the Nonesuch recording of Bohor I, arguably the first recorded piece of industrial noisepainthrashmusic. >A while ago someone asked if Morton Subotnick was still composing, i beleave >he still is, although the last work of his i purchased (The Key To Songs; >Return) was published in 1986. He has co/authored a book which on first >glance seems to be tied in with somantics (or semiotics) and music. Fred >Frith's "The Technology Of Tears" seems to be akin to Subotnick's style. He's out there; I think others have more recent data on him than I. >I haven't actually tried microtonal composition. Maybe i should start with >quarter tones (i hope this is right) which could lead to a total of 24 >possible notes. It wouldn't be that hard to dedicate two midi channels to a >single timbre, having one ch detuned for the 1/4 step. (my synth set up >doesn't allow for compression of the octave). This is too bad; I've messed with 19-tone and 31-tone scales on my Xpander and have found them very intriguing. Differences in the timbral quality of various intervals with respect to one another and with respect to equal temperament stand out startlingly. The trick is to find a number of tones per octave that results in good ratios of frequencies (fifths, thirds, etc.); I'm not sure how good quarter tones are except as an approximation, although I've seen a lot of synths with quarter-tone tunings available. >Do i need to exhume Harry Partch? And what about the Aphex twin. I beg pardon? What does Partch have to do with Richard James? -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bumper stickers advertising BREAK, a new weekly entertainment newspaper for ultra-jammin' Tallahassee, Florida, read: "Even shit doesn't happen here." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:52:44 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Phil Skiba Subject: Re: frequency orgasms kindly dig up that freq, I think the people here would be "tickled" by it. ;^) Phil sps5251@siena.bitnet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 16:19:57 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Kevan L. Moore" Subject: Re: resonant frequency > I am a physicist, but not an acoustician. My background in the field > consists of the basic wave mechanics and resonance theory any physical > scientist is expected to know, augmented somewhat by my years of work > in electronic music in and out of academia. I have spoken to, and of much LESS significance is the fact that while quietly humming to myself in a stall in the men's room, i discovered that the resonant frequency of the stall was roughly the 2nd G below middle C. i found that no matter how quietly i hummed the G the volume in the stall was the same. i could go up a step and there was no resonance; all i heard was me. yes, this opens up TONS of jokes, but there's been nobody i can tell that to that would appreciate the physics of it. klm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 17:49:32 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Burton Beerman Subject: chords The o for for half-dminished I believe is used by the Paul Harder theory text (formerly of Michigan State University) and I believe that he used a dim for the fully diminished. I don't know if this is of interest, but if so perhaps there is a former student of his can verify this and explain why. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:04:12 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Karen Anne Martin <45650@EF.GC.MARICOPA.EDU> Subject: Finale help on the Net? Does anyone know of an Internet source(s) where one can find help with the Mac version of Finale? Any format will do (gopher, ftp, telnet, etc.). Drop me a line...thanks in advance. kmartin457 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 19:57:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Arne Claassen ISE Subject: Re: frequency orgasms In-Reply-To: <9410041735.AA16743@ebs330> from "Trent Hare GD.Flagstaff 602556-7245" at Oct 5, 94 10:31:42 am > I have heard the same story about frequencies however > the story I heard was that a certain frequecy caused > you bladder to let go if exposed constantly to it for > about seven minutes. Even though I created this > low frequency and looped it (the woofer was massively > vibrating) I wondered if the amp and the woofers would > even be able to reproduce a frequency that low??? > Never finished the test though. If anyone wants to > try I can dig up the fequency. Why didn't you finish the test? Did you have to go to the bathroom? Sorry, couldn't resist that one. -- Arne F. Claassen On the Web: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Somebody's got his finger on a DX7!" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 23:33:57 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Leo T. Nutley" Subject: Re: subotnik correction yes, twas the musicologist Rose Rosengar Subotnik, 'Developing Variations-Style and Ideology in Western Music" oops. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 21:34:19 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nate Waddoups Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <199410051722.AA22362@halcyon.com> On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Michael Carnes wrote: > The comments on various frequencies having different effects brought an old > story to mind. I knew a bass player about 15-20 years back who had read > some article that particular low frequencies could cause orgasms. He > asked me (in all seriousness) how he could rig up some device that would > play these low frequencies while he gigged, therebye increasing his > chances of meeting --shall we say-- interesting friends. Can't be true. If it was, some researcher would have a multi-platinum album titled "On the effects of low-frequency auditory stimulus upon the mammalian pleasure centers." Heck, I'd buy two copies. > There are small bits of evidence that suggest certain effects, but these > effects are quite weak and are generally obliterated when the environment > is rich in stimuli. As far as placing strict emotional meaning on various > frequencies, it's probably a good idea to make sure those same emotions > are also conveyed by more reproducable means. I've read a thing or two about sending different low frequencies into each ear - supposedly, the subject's brain waves fall into synch with the difference between the two frequencies, and meditative states can be induced this way. Interesting idea. +-------------------+------------------------------------------------------- | natew@halcyon.com | You write Windows code? Mac code? OS/2 PM code? +-------------------+ Want a great job in the pacific northwest? Send me email, we'll talk... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:12:31 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "" Subject: Re: frequency orgasms >Off the top of my head I believe the bladder frequecy >is 7 Hz. Have fun. > Anatomically interesting concept. Several years ago there were reports of research (in the UK I think) into use of low frequency sound as a form of riot control. What was never clear to me was: a) How the custodians of the law were protected from the effects b) Who was going to clear up afterwards Clive Clive McFarland CSIRO Australia clive@pelican.dbe.csiro.au ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 00:19:26 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jeff Wheeler Subject: CSOUND Hey, Anyone out there know how to get ahold of CSOUND and what system requirements there are for said program? Ciao fo now. Jeff ______________________________________________________________ | Jeffrey K. Wheeler | | | jwheeler@bigcat missouri.edu | JKW | | | VirtualMusic | | 3600 E. Hidden Lane | & | | Hartsburg, Missouri 65039-9774 U.S.A. | Sound | -------------------------------------------------------------- "I only know that through music you can reach to God" Ali Akbar Khan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 01:26:09 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Keith Bowers Subject: 60 Fathoms deep and gale winds (deep structures 2) Boy, I said I was wading out in deep water with my post about deep structures and their relative obscurity in Schoenbergian systems. But Im glad some others have found interest in the crashing waves- Mark Simon posted while humming retrograde inversions of the row in Moses und Aaron- >It may be that at some core level >there's some sort of universal emotional response to certain musical >phenomenon, but after that the bulk of it is cultural. Music expresses >what we decide it expresses. Well said. The "content" that music structures convey are what I refer to as "complexity". Music exists as a medium to apprehend complexity in ourselves. This may seem nebulous but outside of the happy/sad endless circle debate, the possibility of recognition of complexity is a function of our relation to music. Directly put music is a mirror which we use to reflect ourselves. Studies that examine the physiological effects of auditory wave phenomena suggest that music can be tailored to elicit a response in humans. Stockhausen makes much of this in his writtings "Towards a Cosmic Music". More storm warnings from the coast- Dr. K corey posted while rehearsing the fire dept brass band- >Of course, if you simply accept that no music has any >emotional *content*, you won't have to suffer disappointment that a search >for such content comes up empty. The Ancient Greeks recognized the inheirent capabilities of music to affect the human organism both physical and mental. Maybe potential in music would be a better word than the big bad "E" word you reject. Dr Corey also wrote while berating the tuba player in his best Toscanini voice- >I'd be interested in seeing anyone >demonstrate that emotion is a thing that can be contained by anything, >even people. People do not "contain" emotion we exist it. We dont say " I contain happiness" we say "I AM happy" Experiencing grief, love, anger -these are not easily explained however these "states" are our mode of exisitng. Boy the water is getting even deeper out here. Anyone want to talk velocity # fixes for DX-7 controllers using Emagics Notator Logic? Turning the boat towards shore- kabowers@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 00:32:21 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Patrick Lenneau Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura >On OCT 4 Keith Bowers wrote: > > I remember well Michael Gielen being chased from his music directors post in >Cincinnati during the 80's for programing what was, in the orchestra's view, >too many 2nd V. school works. This was actually a revolt on the part of >professional orchestra musicians who would presumably have an advanced >understanding of musical syntax. If Schoenberg and his followers works were >so self referntial that even professional musicians could not or would not be >able to make the links that make a work transcend being a historical >curiosity what is to be expected from the general concert going public? I think the operative words here are "professional orchestra musicians." Making these links is what artists do. If not with the music of Schoenberg..., where are these professional orchestra musicians making these links? Perhaps with one hundred and two hundred year old works. Professional musicians are not neccessarily artists, perhaps craftsmen, but we can be sure that their "professional" selves will serve as a weathervane for what the consumer wants. I would not put much faith in the motivations of these "professional musicians." _____________________________________________________________________ _/_____________________________________________________________________\_ / | | \ | | And In This Corner: | | <| | Originally from Alameda, CA fighting out of ptl@crl.com | |> | | The Cyberweight Champion of the World... Patrick "AltoHorn" Lenneau | | \_|_____________________________________________________________________|_/ \_____________________________________________________________________/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 02:04:05 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Patrick Lenneau Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura On 5 Oct 94 Mark Simon wrote: >Atonal music may be said to be "self-referential" in that it rejects all >the consonance/dissonance-based expectations of the audience, which as I >said before, makes up a very large bulk of what we've come to consider >emotional. In the 12-tone system, tonal and intervalic relations are >determined by the row chosen by the composer, rather than from the >collective memory bank of the audience. Schoenberg himself used the >phrase "12 tones related only to each other". The tone rows may not explicitly refer to consonance and dissonance in a harmonic context but they do in a modal context. A modal resolution is usually just a few tones away. This provides a shifting modal context which is only realized after the resolution occurs. >So if atonal music appears to lack emotion it's because we haven't come >up with a conventional way to respond to it. Perhaps we never will. >There's no law that says we have to. If audiences want to stay away from >atonal music, there ain't nothin' that's gonna stop 'em. This is a common response to new music. I have heard be-bop jazz described as out of tune by those with limited exposure to it. Apparently the shifting tonics combined with extensive chord extensions evokes this response. It seems that tone rows might be having a similar effect on the listener but without the reinforcement of the repeated structures found a be-bop tune. Hence there is no out of tune, there is just nothing. >There are other conventions that I haven't mentioned which deal with >rhythm and melodic/motivic repetition. Most, perhaps all of the atonal >music that I like makes generous use of these conventions. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 04:31:52 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" Subject: Re: frequency orgasms In-Reply-To: <01HHX3QAIUK49BVE81@asu.edu> from "atomic city" at Oct 5, 94 01:22:08 pm > In conclusion, I would say that in order to reproduce this sort of > behavior in humans, one would have to generate whatever sound is > believed to work at very high volumes, and that at this time there is > no direct evidence that any particular sound wave has a general effect > on human beings when played at moderate levels (treating the Huxley > story and my experience as statistical flukes). For those who want to > experiment on their own, I suggest a lot of bass energy, the largest > subwoofers available, suitable ear protection for all concerned, and a > keen sense of the ridiculous. Indeed. Well, I heard somewhere that certain low freqs can cause a bowel movement. If it worked on enough people I guess it could be marketable. Imagine having a high-powered subwoofer next to the john for those constipated moments.... :-) -- _______ KB7PWD - now on packet! shawn.rutledge@asu.edu (_ | |_) html: http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~rutledge/home.html __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * sci fi * RISC * fusion * robotics * PIC * quantize the universe * packet * *** Happy Birthday to the Internet! May it live long and prosper. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:22:13 LCL Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <9410060435.AA10919@ursa-major.spdcc.com> ---------- X-Sun-Data-Type: text X-Sun-Data-Description: text X-Sun-Data-Name: text X-Sun-Content-Lines: 9 X-Sun-Content-Length: 707 While I'm not surprised to see the amount of traffic my orgasm story produced, I am surprised how many people missed the point of it. Yes, there are lots of barely-supported studies that purport to show some physiological responses to various frequencies. No they have no musical application. I was trying to point out the old chestnut 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'. My bass-player friend was demonstrating an all-too-common scientific misunderstanding that most people display when hearing a media report on some obscure paper. If the way you put your notes together doesn't attract people to you, then you better be good-looking because a 7Hz oscillator is just not going to do it for you. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:01:26 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Bob Ceely Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura Actually I think you got in in retrograde: i.e. most science types want to be musicians but threy can't hear a perfect fifth never mind a anything more complicated than I VI ii V I The reason so many people want to get off this list is because of the inane discussions like these about Milton Babbitt and Arnold Schoenberg. Go build your nerve gas and stop it! Love, RPC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:22:19 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Louis Pape Organization: Dakota State University Subject: Re: Finale help on the Net? Someone may have already informed you, but there is a listserv only for FINALE available and there is a lot of help and message on it. It is Finale@SHSU.edu In the body of your message state only subscribe FINALE Usually you do NOT need to include your e mail address as it is picked up automatically. Best wishes. LP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:16:33 +662900 Reply-To: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Organization: Heinous Owners Club And Persons With Nine Letter Names Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <199410060646.BAA05496.198A7@heinous.isca.uiowa.edu> On Wed, 5 Oct 1994, Mark G Simon wrote: > Doesn't matter who chose the title. If the shoe fits, wear it. "Who cares > if you listen" perfectly describes the contents of his famous article, > protest all he may. When the NY Phil played his "Relata I" and union > regulations forbade the taping of the performance, he was upset (as any > composer would be), but for that the stated reason that the real people > he intended the music for [i.e. his fellow profs] wouldn't get to hear it > while people who didn't matter [i.e. the general public] would. Clearly > the only ones he cares about hearing his music are his fellow academics. > Sorry, that's not good enough for me. Fine. If you can point out passages in the article that merit the title, I'm willing to listen. But I've met people who "think" they understand the article, without ever having read it. I don't see the attitude in the article, so I'd really like it if someone -- anyone -- could make it clear to me. This can be done via private email, and I'll be happy to summarize, if anyone's interested. > In my opinion the best audience for music, paradoxically perhaps, are > scientists. And I mean real scientists, not wannabes like Babbitt. Go to > any physics or chemistry department and you'll find a whole slew of > people who sing or play instruments quite proficiently. They also show up > faithfully at the local concerts. These are intelligent people, and they > enjoy music and listen intelligently. They applaud Bach and Brahms, and > if they want something more contemporary they'll put on Brian Eno. They > won't listen to Milton Babbitt or Anton Webern or Brian Ferneyhough. They > deal with dry calculations all day in their work. Why should they have it > in their music. Babbitt's not a wannabe scientist, period. Wannabe scientists are people who quote 5 minutes' knowledge of the overtone series as evidence for the supremacy of common practice harmony, ignoring the fact that any *real* scientist or mathematician would never, ever confuse 3:2 with an equally tempered fifth, not in a million years. If anyone was a wannabe scientist, it was Hindemith. However, that's never interfered with my enjoyment of his music, so I don't worry about it. As a matter of logic, it simply doesn't follow that dry calculations result in dry music. It's quite possible to develop a very dry algorithm to produce any bit pattern on any CD. *All* music can be reduced to dry calculations. It can also be done with mostly-dry-but-somewhat-damp calculations, in a class called Theory I. > OK this is generalizing. Scientists are as individual as anybody else, > but the point is, it's not a choice between pandering to the dunderheads > who scream at Jesus Jones concerts or licking the butts of egg-headed > professors. There are intelligent listeners out there who have concluded > that orchestras, string quartets, opera, the whole works are irrelevant > bullshit because they only do dead composers, or modern composers who > sound worse than dead. They're turning away from "classical" music > altogether. We can't just say "fuck em all, what do they know" or "75 > years from now I'll be as famous as Beethoven". Hell, 75 years from now > there'll be no more orcestras to play your mighty masterworks, or > Schoenberg's, or Mozart's or anyone else's. It is absolutely essential > for the survival of the art that we "serious" composers cultivate a > sizable audience of whatever intelligent people there are outside of the > "new music" community, in fact outside of the music community altogether. > No, we don't have to be able to fill monster stadium concerts like the > rock groups do, but this small tiny tiny minority of a minority "new > music" community is entirely too "self-referential". Yes, but there are also intelligent listeners who have reached opposite conclusions from these, Mark. There's even such a thing as intelligent people who call themselves "Republicans" and intelligent people who call themselves "Democrats", and the fact that one group is intelligent does not automagically make the other group un-intelligent. Therefore, the fact that your conclusions are shared by intelligent people does not by itself make these conclusions accurate. Kronos plays Hendrix, and plenty of rock bands use orchestras onstage with them. I agree with you that this is a time for composers to do plenty of rethinking about what we do, but to say that orchestras are bullshit because Beethoven is dead seems analogous to saying books are bullshit because Aristotle is dead. Heck, we could say that electronic music is dead because Georg Ohm and Ben Franklin are dead. It just don't follow logically. > > > If they don't, you may still win your Pulitzer Prize. You may even have a > > > better chance of winning it if they don't. But ultimately your music is > > > dead as Lenin if people won't listen to it and enjoy it. That's just the > > > way it is. > > > > Yup. But as long as one single person in the audience has a clue > > concerning what I'm saying, my music is as alive as Lennon's. :) > > I presume that one person is your mother. Bad presumption. My mother wants me to write waltzes. Even my wife doesn't always know what I'm talking about, even though she, too, is a (dreaded) academic composer. > Mark Simon > mgs2@cornell.edu At this point, I think I should add something new to the discussion. I haven't written anything even remotely serial in over 10 years. Frankly, the notion that anyone still thinks that *pitch* is an issue in music disturbs me. Pitch hasn't been relevant to music since Russolo or Pierre Henry [Wow! I'm talking about *emusic* again!] so far as I'm concerned. But, I will defend *any* music -- and particularly music that I care about -- against inaccurate facts and arguments constructed with faulty logic. Sure, plenty of people think serial music is irrelevant. Plenty of people also think Jean-Michel Jarre is irrelevant. Plenty of people think the indigenous music of is irrelevant. But none of this proves anything, really. If folks are tired of this thread, send me private email, please, and I'll be happy to drop the whole matter. Fan mail is welcome, too. ;-) -- Kirk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dr. Kirk Corey [insert Electronic Systems Administrator kirk-corey@uiowa.edu disclaimer School of Music here] The University of Iowa "Msdos? MSDOS? I've seen CALCULATORS with a better operating system!" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:24:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re: Finale help on the Net? Does anyone know of an Internet source(s) where one can find help with the Mac version of Finale? Any format will do (gopher, ftp, telnet, etc.). Drop me a line...thanks in advance. kmartin457 Try subscribing to the Finale list. Contact Listserv@SHSU.edu message should say SUBSCRIBE FINALE >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU by ucsd.edu; id SAA01236 sendmail 8.6.9/UCSD-2 >Message-Id: <199410060105.SAA01236@ucsd.edu> >Received: from AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU by AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with >Received: from AMERICAN.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV@AUVM) by AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU (LM >Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 18:04:12 -0700 >Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List >Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List >From: Karen Anne Martin <45650@EF.GC.MARICOPA.EDU> >Subject: Finale help on the Net? >Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@auvm.bitnet >To: Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L >X-CCaddr: Bcc: peter mueller AT ucsdlibrary >X-CCaddr: *To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU at @UCSD ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:33:36 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura > > Babbitt's not a wannabe scientist, period. Wannabe scientists are people Well he's sure not a composer either. > who quote 5 minutes' knowledge of the overtone series as evidence for the > supremacy of common practice harmony, ignoring the fact that any *real* > scientist or mathematician would never, ever confuse 3:2 with an equally > tempered fifth, not in a million years. I don't know who you're talking about here. It sure wasn't me. The point you make about 3:2 not being the same as a tempered 5th only supports the actual point that I was arguing in my other posting, which is that expression in music is mostly culture-derived. Obviously if we can accept a tempered 5th as consonant we're not following the dictates of nature. I'm not about to argue the supremacy of common practice harmony. There's too many other possiblities. Schoenberg offered one such other possibility, but it still hasn't caught on outside of academia, even after 80 years. > > Yes, but there are also intelligent listeners who have reached opposite > conclusions from these, Mark. There's even such a thing as intelligent And they're killing music. Absolutely killing it. > > Kronos plays Hendrix, and plenty of rock bands use orchestras onstage with > them. I agree with you that this is a time for composers to do plenty of > rethinking about what we do, but to say that orchestras are bullshit > because Beethoven is dead seems analogous to saying books are bullshit > because Aristotle is dead. Heck, we could say that electronic music is > dead because Georg Ohm and Ben Franklin are dead. It just don't follow > logically. Again, you're arguing with someone else here, not me. I agree with the above paragraph you've written, but many others say the orchestra is dead. What are you going to do about it? Sit there and write for one audience member while 1000 others walk out in disgust? This thread is going quite lively on the orchestra list. You should sign up and follow it there. I'll have no more to say about it here. > > At this point, I think I should add something new to the discussion. I > haven't written anything even remotely serial in over 10 years. Frankly, > the notion that anyone still thinks that *pitch* is an issue in music > disturbs me. Pitch hasn't been relevant to music since Russolo or Pierre > Henry [Wow! I'm talking about *emusic* again!] so far as I'm concerned. or Ice T or Public Enemy. Okay, ... if that's what you want to listen to, you go right ahead. Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 15:37:49 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Harry F.P. Haecker" Subject: deep structure in obscura Would it be OK if I ask a sincere question here? If not, you can tell me to blow and I'll just be a voyeur to this thread. >Pitch hasn't been relevant to music since Russolo or Pierre > Henry [Wow! >I'm talking about *emusic* again!] so far as I'm concerned. In your opinion, what aspect of sound _has_ become relevant to music in these last days of this millenium? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've gathered that timbre and complex polyrhythms utilized within computer-generated algorithms is popular among some of the intelligencia on this list. Is this the case within larger circles? Harry Haecker (haeckerh@nwrc.gov) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:42:47 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nate Waddoups Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <199410061248.AA11028@halcyon.com> On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Michael Carnes wrote: > While I'm not surprised to see the amount of traffic my orgasm story > produced, I am surprised how many people missed the point of it. Don't worry, I don't think any took it too seriously... > Yes, there are lots of barely-supported studies that purport to show some > physiological responses to various frequencies. No they have no musical > application. I was trying to point out the old chestnut 'A little > knowledge is a dangerous thing'. My bass-player friend was demonstrating > an all-too-common scientific misunderstanding that most people display > when hearing a media report on some obscure paper. If the way you put > your notes together doesn't attract people to you, then you better be > good-looking because a 7Hz oscillator is just not going to do it for you. I don't think anyone on this list seriously thinks that this is the key to their entry into the music biz, but you know what? I laughed out loud at some of the messages in this thread. It may not be relevant to electronic MUSIC, but I see nothing wrong with a little noise in the signal, if it's this funny... +-------------------+------------------------------------------------------- | natew@halcyon.com | You write Windows code? Mac code? OS/2 PM code? +-------------------+ Want a great job in the pacific northwest? Send me email, we'll talk... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:52:25 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jk Subject: Binaural phenomena (was deep stuff) From: Nate Waddoups >I've read a thing or two about sending different low frequencies into >each ear - supposedly, the subject's brain waves fall into synch with the >difference between the two frequencies, and meditative states can be >induced this way. Interesting idea. Indeed, a binaural phenomenon. There was a Scientific American article of many years ago which described binaural excitation. As we all know if you mix two signals (lets say 440Hz and 443Hz) and listen, you'll hear tone beating.....e.g. the same beating you hear when you're trying to tune a guitar. Well, that's not so cool....big deal! It becomes of interest when you send a different frequency tone into each ear, as Nate describes. In this case, providing you have ideal isolation (like an in-the-ear headset), it is the *brain* that 'hears' the beating. The beating does not occur in the air as it would from stereo speakers. It is a construct based on neural stimulation. Driving brain waves with this beating has been described, but I'm not sure if a large sample size trial has been done using quantitative EEG or brain mapping. (John 3: have you heard of such a trial?) It is relatively easy to program an experimental tone(s) on a synth provided you are sure that signal paths of the tones do not cross electronically. _ -john ___ __/ | ___ | | JKrikawa@CCIT.Arizona.Edu | |___ ________ \______/ \__________ Tucson, AZ ___../\./\/ \____/ \____ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 22:25:06 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: rob de groot Subject: TASCAM DA 88 I am using the Tascam DA 88 now for almost one year and must say this is a perfect machine to work with. At the moment we use the machine locked with the Sony P2 protocol with our Sony BVE 910 video edit controller. It synchronises perfect and I can use the edit controller as remote control as well. During this year NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. (no drop-outs or other kind of tape/transport/sound/mechanical problems). Don't worry about the DA88's multiplexed tracks. When you record onto track 1, the machine reads and re-writes track 2 at the same time. I never experienced the sound being influenced by this action. (On the hard disk of your computer you do the same thing with the files you need every day. Ever lost any data? Only if deleted by accident or on purpose. The DA 88 is fast in winding and rewinding but tape transport proved to be very reliable. The choice for the DA 88 (instead of the ADAT )was also decided on the experience we have in video with 8mm and super-vhs tapes. Rob de Groot ----------------------------------------------------------- * VIDISHOT AudioVisual Productions & Facilities * Heeswijkplein 19 * NL-2531 HC The Hague * The Netherlands * EMAIL: rdegroot@knoware.nl * Tel. +31-70-3940563 * Fax +31-70-3935387 ----------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 14:09:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura Would it be OK if I ask a sincere question here? If not, you can tell me to blow and I'll just be a voyeur to this thread. >Pitch hasn't been relevant to music since Russolo or Pierre > Henry [Wow! >I'm talking about *emusic* again!] so far as I'm concerned. In your opinion, what aspect of sound _has_ become relevant to music in these last days of this millenium? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've gathered that timbre and complex polyrhythms utilized within computer-generated algorithms is popular among some of the intelligencia on this list. Is this the case within larger circles? I'm not sure. But I was told (by Vinko Globokar) that studies have shown that the order of cognition of musical elements is 1)dynamics, 2)rhythm, 3)timbre, 4)pitch. Any psychologists or psychoaccousticians out there want to comment. I don't know this from anything other than word of mouth, but I figure since Vinko studied this stuff, I'll trust him until someone else convinces me otherwise. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 20:13:41 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Ryan C. Jones" Subject: unsubscribe would somebody please unsubscribe me? i've tried multiple times to do it via the addresses it said to, but my mail gets returned. if somebody can unsubscribe me, or if they know how, please do so or let me know. thanks r0adkill ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 18:50:37 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Shawn T. Rutledge" Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura In-Reply-To: <01HHYII5HZSM9BVEZG@asu.edu> from "Nate Waddoups" at Oct 6, 94 01:42:47 pm > +-------------------+------------------------------------------------------- > | natew@halcyon.com | You write Windows code? Mac code? OS/2 PM code? > +-------------------+ Want a great job in the pacific northwest? > Send me email, we'll talk... OK, here it is... Well, I'm actually an electrical engineering student, and will be graduating this December, but a software position would certainly be OK. Sometimes I think I ought to have been a CS major anyway :-). My experience has mostly been with plain old C, but I really want to learn some Windows programming. I have done some Toolbook, and some reading, with the goal of being able to write several applications I have in mind, so it's not completely foreign to me. You can find my resume by going to my home page (listed in the signature below)... Go to "information about the author" at the bottom, and then "Personal Resume". I do love the Pacific Northwest (is it Oregon by any chance?) and want to get a job away from here if possible - explore someplace different, and hopefully get some less hot weather out of the deal. So, what can you tell me about the positions available? -- _______ KB7PWD - now on packet! shawn.rutledge@asu.edu (_ | |_) html: http://enuxsa.eas.asu.edu/~rutledge/home.html __) | | \__________________________________________________________________ * IEEE * alternative energy * electronics * ham radio * techno * Star Trek * *** Happy Birthday to the Internet! May it live long and prosper. *** ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:22:54 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Jordan Subject: Re: frequency orgasms >>story I heard was that a certain frequecy caused you bladder to let go if exposed constantly to it for about seven minutes. I also remember hearing a story about chopper pilots wearing diapers for their low frequency "attacks" in Vietnam. There were supposedly sounds blasted to the ground below by speakers (subaudio) mounted on the helicopters to cause the enemy to loose control of their bowels. That's all I know about it. Tom Jordan wired4soun@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 21:23:00 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Jordan Subject: Re: deep structure in obscura >>On 5 Oct 94 Mark Simon wrote: >Atonal music may be said to be "self-referential" in that it rejects all >the consonance/dissonance-based expectations of the audiencex >>This is a common response to new music. I have heard be-bop jazz described as out of tune by those with limited exposure to it.<<< I'm reminded of a concert by Weather Report I attended several years back. It was obvious to me that the solos were *continuations* of "conversations" that had been going on for weeks of gigs on the road. I felt left out. Unfortunately (at least for me!) the performers had not bothered to include me. They had failed to reach out to me, to take me along, bring me into the dialog. Anyone, any style of composer, is capable of opting to preclude the listener. "What's your agenda?" Tom Jordan wired4soun@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:36:05 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Geert De Paep Subject: Q: Cubase Lite? Or other Score-software Tel: (02) 719 12 52 Email: gdepaep@be.oracle.com Hello, A Question? I heard that Cubase exists in three versions: Cubase Lite, Cubase Scores and Cubase Audio. Can anyone tell me whether Cubase Lite is freeware or do you have to pay for it? And if so, how much does it cost? (I find Cubase Scores rather expensive) I have the program Cubase-demo, which is free. Is Cubase Lite very different from this? Does anybody know what other music-annotation programs there exist that are either free or either do not cost too much? I just want to be able to record the music I play (on a keyboard) into some program that shows me the scores, and that does some basic operations on this, like e.g. quantisation, editing, .... Just what Cubase-demo does, however I would also like to be able to save my results in a file on disk (what Cubase-demo unfortunately does not allow). Any suggestions for this? Or locations where soft is available? Thanks, Geert. gdepaep@be.oracle.com _____ _____ ______ ____ __ _____ Geert De Paep __ / _ / __ / ___/ / ___/ Oracle Belgium / / /__/ /_ / / / __/ Excelsiorlaan 28 ____/__/ _|__/ __/____/ ____/____/ 1930 Zaventem, Belgium ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:30:29 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Lion Keezer Subject: Re: Books on songwriting >I'm interested in finding books on practical songwriting (in >particular, in the areas of rock and film scores). Book resources in >NZ range from vague to non-existent. > >A local music store told me about a series of books published by Mix >Bookshelf. The salesman from this store had bought a couple while >he was in New Orleans, but he hasn't been able to track down an agent >for NZ. > >So my two questions are: > >1. Has anyone heard of Mix Bookshelf, and how can I contact them. > >2. Can anyone recommend other publications that handle songwriting >techniques, in a practical fashion. > >Thanks for any help. >================================================ >Craig Jewiss, CNE Systems Engineer >National Library of New Zealand >ph: 64 4 4743072 Graig, (and everyone else interested) Try 'The Billboard Book of Songwriting', by Peter Pickow and Amy Appleby. published by Bilboard publications, Inc. New York. It was first printed in 1988 and the ISBN is 0-8230-7539-7. If found it most useful Lion Keezer Amsterdam, Holland ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:36:20 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Zougas Subject: Re: Finale help on the Net? In-Reply-To: <199410070554.BAA20344@burst.civ.utoronto.ca> On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, jk wrote: > Subscribe to EMUSIC-L > > send a message to IN%"LISTSERV@AMERICAN.EDU" > in the body put SUB EMUSIC-L your name > > UNSUBSCRIBE TO EMUSIC-L!!!: > > send a message to IN%"LISTSERV@AMERICAN.EDU" > in the body put SIGNOFF EMUSIC-L your name just to clarify things, the address should be: listserv@american.edu not: in%"listserv@american.edu" ========================================================================== Tom Zougas zougas@civ.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:57:01 +662900 Reply-To: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Organization: Heinous Owners Club And Persons With Nine Letter Names Subject: To pitch or not to pitch (was: deep structure in obscura) In-Reply-To: <199410062043.PAA07420.198A7@heinous.isca.uiowa.edu> On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Harry F.P. Haecker wrote: > >Pitch hasn't been relevant to music since Russolo or Pierre > Henry [Wow! > >I'm talking about *emusic* again!] so far as I'm concerned. > > In your opinion, what aspect of sound _has_ become relevant to music in > these last days of this millenium? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've > gathered that timbre and complex polyrhythms utilized within > computer-generated algorithms is popular among some of the intelligencia on > this list. Is this the case within larger circles? Counting myself as one of the "intelligencia", yes, I think that many people currently working in computer music are interested in timbre and complex polyrhythms. But I think plenty of folks outside of the "intelligencia" would like to get their hands on a new Morpheus (the synth that lets you "morph" from one timbre to another). A couple of months ago, Philip Blackburn, of the Minnesota Composers' Forum, played for me some music he had recorded on a recent trip to Vietnam. My impression of that music was that the people who made it were also concerned much more with timbre and rhythm than with pitch. From the perspective of timbre and rhythm, it's interesting to note this relative proximity of some computer music and some "ethno" music, compared to the 19th century symphonic repertoire. In any case, interest in things besides pitch seems to exist in larger circles, which is what Harry was wondering. Of course, I've probably been grinding my axe with the "traditional" four-semester theory sequence of 101: Pitch, 102: More Pitch, 103: Advanced Pitchology and 104: Pitch Revisited for about as long as some of my distinguished colleagues have been chanting "Schoenberg and Webern and Berg, oh my!"* :) *Chanted to the rhythm of "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!" from The Wizard of Oz. -- Kirk -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dr. Kirk Corey [insert Electronic Systems Administrator kirk-corey@uiowa.edu disclaimer School of Music here] The University of Iowa "Msdos? MSDOS? I've seen CALCULATORS with a better operating system!" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:56:29 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Memories of Xenakis: Bohor I > > > >Xenakis is another story, to be honest i don't know how much attention he > >pays to tonality, other than it is neither traditional nor twelve tone. > > Well, i wish I knew more about his work; I've heard a live performance of > his percussion piece for the SiXXen, and have heard (once) the Nonesuch > recording of Bohor I, arguably the first recorded piece of industrial > noisepainthrashmusic. Oh yeah, I forgot about Bohor I. I bought that record when I was 17 and I haven't listened to it in ages. I'll have to dig it out. As I recall, it sounds like thousands of trash cans banging by at 100 miles an hour with some kind of low hum in the background. It goes on for about 20 minutes and intensifies until the last 5 minutes are one tremendous WHOOSH. It ends with a very abrupt cutoff. I thought this was pretty cool stuff back in 1971. Especially the time my father barged in the room screaming "TAKE THAT THING OFF THIS SECOND!!!". He was about to rip the needle off the turntable, but just as his hand reached down to do the deed the abrupt cutoff came. He jerked his hand back, even more startled. For the teenager who wishes to annoy his parents, you can hardly go wrong with Xenakis. Of course my official position on Xenakis today is that he's one of those @#&%!!!! academics. I still occasionally get some surreptitious pleasure from this stuff every once in a while, though. Xenakis is extremely mathematically oriented but he does manage to come up with some striking sounds, if you enjoy sounds for their own sake. I have a feeling my wife is going to have the same reaction to Bohor I as my father did. Such is life. Ah well, there's always headphones. Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu I reserve the right to hold as many contradictory viewpoints as I please. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:59:11 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Macalester College Music Department Subject: Re: Memories of Xenakis: Bohor I In-Reply-To: Your message dated "Fri, 07 Oct 1994 11:56:29 -0400" <01HHZQNLETS2AFWF91@MACALSTR.EDU> Mark (and others) re Xenakis, have you ploughed through his book "Formalized Music, Thought and Mathematics in Composition". IU Press, 1971. This was supposed to delineate the compositional process which was to become the "common practice" of the future. Now with almost 25 years hindsight, it seems to me that the book was prophetic. Even if you should disagree with it as a general application, it is an important insight into X's own music and should you not be familiar with it, I sincerely hope you enjoy the read! cheers! +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ + Ed Forner Macalester College Music Department + + in%"forner@macalstr.edu" voice (612) 696-6189 + +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:18:15 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Michael A. Dalton ADP OPuS" Subject: Re: Books on songwriting In-Reply-To: <9410071021.AA08092@plaza.ds.adp.com> from "Lion Keezer" at Oct 7, 94 11:30:29 am > > > >1. Has anyone heard of Mix Bookshelf, and how can I contact them. > > Mix Bookshelf 800-233-9604 6400 Hollis Street #12 Emeryville, CA 94608 U.S.A. -- +------------------------+-------------------------------+ __/\__ | Michael A. Dalton |"What I say to you, I say to | \/ \/ "Never | miked@plaza.ds.adp.com | everyone: Watch!" -Mark 13:17 | /\ /\ Again!" +------------------------+-------------------------------+ ""\/"" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:51:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Douglas Nelson Subject: Re: Memories of Xenakis: Bohor I In-Reply-To: <01HHZQNYNELE000E91@WABASH.EDU> On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Mark G Simon wrote: > Of course my official position on Xenakis today is that he's one of those > @#&%!!!! academics. I still occasionally get some surreptitious pleasure > from this stuff every once in a while, though. Xenakis is extremely > mathematically oriented but he does manage to come up with some striking > sounds, if you enjoy sounds for their own sake. > Try Xenakis' composition for percussion, Pleiades, recently released on a BIS CD. Might make one revise one's notion of Xenakis-as-academic. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 11:40:42 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HARRY HAECKER Subject: To pitch or not to pitch Yes, even though I'm not the proud owner of either a music degree or a brand-spankin'-new Morpheus, I'm also interested in (as Eno puts it) the "vertical aspect of sound". I'm considering a MicroWave, however... I take it that the two synths are comparable? I'm exploring accessable polyrhythms, as opposed to those that are so complex as to be impossible to readily be viscerally understood outside of a mathematical expression. Since all sounds are made up of a fundamental and its accompanying overtones, you're saying that exploring the relationships between fundamentals is passe, while exploring the relationships between partials is rave. If so, I can understand why: traditional major/minor/12 tone can go just so far in opening up the universe of sound. There is just SO MUCH out there to experience that hasn't been tried; but that brings up another, ancillary dilemma that I've been pondering (I'm sure it's been discussed in the Halls of Music Academia, but I wasn't there that day ;-) ) Although you think that our system of tuning and tonal relationships has been beaten into the ground, I think there is still a place for I-IV-V-I (some might say that place is the nearest landfill!), and people will be listening to these songs much more readily than, say, Xenakis, for the next 100 years... "You stole my heart, my achy-breaky heart...":) Many of these songs will just re-hash the old ones (most?), but that's just the point: people like comfort, and the old I-VI-IV-V-V6/4-I is like putting on your favorite pair of loafers. That brings me to my impression of the real importance of "Pitch 101, 102, etc." I think in this day of new, new, new, we are in danger of moving too fast with new explorations; perhaps moving on before fully exploring what we have. We're being inundated by 1000's of algorithms for compostion, and before being able to REALLY study them as individual phenomenon, we move on. It's like the exact opposite of the problem you describe for our scale system that's been in use for the last 300 years. I _know_ the music of a culture can serve to bind it together, and like language, if we each spoke an inaccessable tongue, an important storehouse of common ground would be lost. Those Vietnamese songs of which you spoke are a good example of this. I'm not an ethnomusicologist, but I would hazard a guess that there hasn't been much change in their music for hundreds of years, and that stability helps bind together their culture in a very strong manner. I do have the utmost respect for "the intelligencia" and the Halls of Music Academia: I hope one day to count myself among them. However, there seems to be a moat being built that separates modern/future music theory from John Doe in, say, Denham Springs, LA. If there is to be mutual respect, so that cutting edge music theories are in common use by and for the public (thereby preserving the fabric of our culture), we've got to bridge that gap somehow. Question: How did the system now in use get to be used by the European public 3 centuries ago? Harry Haecker (bthaec@lsuvm.bitnet) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:35:24 CET Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jacek Latanowicz Subject: Re: frequency orgasms In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Oct 1994 10:31:42 MST from Hello. Well, since I'm studying acoustics, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut. I think that some of You have the point about these low frequencies. But in general : You have to divide scale of frequencies to -sounds (percepted by human ear) -ultra sounds (higher) -infra sounds (lower) And also there is a great importance in difference beetwen sounds and vibrations. The definition of sound is based on propagation of wave in the air, and vibration of propagation in some other states. Human body is made up of resonators, reacting to different VIBRATIONS for instance < 2 Hz the whole body vibrates together 6 Hz is the resonant frequency of lung muscle etc etc etc....(for different parts of body) .... 600 Hz is the resonant of an eye. But reacting to sounds propagated in air is different and more complicated. There must be a lot more of enegry in the wave to change the field from air to some solid material, or BODY. So speaking of direct influence that SOUND makes it is barely noticable. There is also a psychological view on sound. There is also a story that few japanese people worked in a lab where was a FAN emitting non hearable tone of 300Hz. They all ended up in a psycho-hospital. So there are many types of influence. The chickens died probably from both influences. The factory made freq. that shook their brains and damaged them and maybe their neural system broke down...who knows ? The Japanese guys got an psychological influence directed into neural system for sure, and not directly by vibrations. But there are also millions of examples how directly a tone can resonate on Your body and things surronding it. Like - 'why do soldiers crossing the bridge have an order to walk freely and not harmonically.' ? - because once a bridge was destroyed due to resonant frequecy they generated. Btw, a typical amplifier can transmit freqs from 1Hz to 200000Hz. The problem is in speakers which usually have limited range from 18-18000Hz or adding some piezos to a ultra range lets say 40000Hz. But woofers propagating waves in the air can't generate SOUND below 20 or 18 Hz. They will shake, move but no sound can be heard...it's just a VIBRATION, and air can catch up with it so NO SOUND IS GENERATED. Just visual movements. Thats my 2 cents. Jacek L. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jacek Latanowicz tel/fax Pl-(0-48-61) 798-202 Ul.Porzeczkowa 27 jack@vm.amu.edu.pl smile@vm.amu.edu.pl 61-306 Poznan jlat@plearn.edu.pl jlat@uci1.ae.poz.edu.pl POLAND "'Dream on, dream on, dream on baby...' CoX" ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:35:26 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Darwin Grosse Subject: Re: frequency orgasms >Human body is made up of resonators, reacting to different VIBRATIONS >for instance < 2 Hz the whole body vibrates together > 6 Hz is the resonant frequency of lung muscle > etc etc etc....(for different parts of body) > .... 600 Hz is the resonant of an eye. Well, from my personal experience... re:2 Hz - My own whole body hasn't vibrated together since I was in high school - the downside of a desk job... re:6 Hz - Assumes a standard chest cavity - Darwin's barrel doesn't count! re:600 Hz - Obviously the frequency I used during my one shot at uWave programming. Or, at least, it was the resonance of the salesman's eyes... Getting a tad real, I think that the cause of various stages of distress based on frequencies produced has to be more Psych than Physics. This would also explain the differences in _my_ reaction to Guns & Roses vs. teeny-bopper's. Or maybe not. Since I'm twice the size of a standard teeny-bopper, perhaps I should feel twice the reaction :-> [ddg] .............................................................................. Darwin Grosse . (414) 377-2946(h)/359-9800(w) . ddg@devlac.ems.com .............................................................................. My two cents are obviously economically challenged ... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 14:18:35 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MR ROBERT POKLENKOWSKI Subject: H.H.'s 'To Pitch, or not To Pitch" H.H.- You present a very valid point when you say, and I'm paraphrasing; "There is still room for I IV V I." Indeed, there is. However, one must consider what is done, in most current (read Popular) circles, with the much maligned I IV V I progression. Perhaps I should have said "...what is NOT done with the I IV V I." Most of the popular music that I have heard, and I say most-not all, seems to treat standard harmonies as if they are the very be all, and end all of the composition. Most seem to treat these battered chords as if that is all that there is. (Perhaps "all they know" would be more appropriate.) Which brings me back to my original point; There is indeed room for I IV V I ; but, I think that it depends on whether these chords are treated with craftsmanship, or as the latest unimportant underlying progression in a piece that seems to exist only for the distortion effect. Robert Poklenkowski NYWK35A@prodigy.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:21:14 GT+3 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Hermann Henning Rauth Organization: PUC/PR Subject: Re: frequency orgasms > Never finished the test though. If anyone wants to > try I can dig up the fequency. > > thare Well, Thare, give us some of yer wisdom, tell us more about this "magical frequency"... Falcon rlat1@rlat1.pucpr.br ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 17:25:14 GT+3 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Hermann Henning Rauth Organization: PUC/PR Subject: Re: resonant frequency > of much LESS significance is the fact that while quietly humming to myself > in a stall in the men's room, i discovered that the resonant frequency > of the stall was roughly the 2nd G below middle C. i found that no > matter how quietly i hummed the G the volume in the stall was the same. > i could go up a step and there was no resonance; all i heard was me. I just can't believe !!! I discovered that too!!! Here in Brazil the men's room are also 2nd-G-bellow-middle-C-ressonant!!! That's fantastic!!! HHRauth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:33:54 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: sorry...guitar player again Tom Ritchford said: > I have no problems with discussions of guitar effects... I got a bit > distressed to see long discussions of guitar *chords* though... (Sense of humor and/or asbestos suit on.) Please tell me which chords are _guitar_ chords so I can avoid them during my sequencing sessions. (Sense of humor and/or asbestos suit off.) Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com P. S. I'm a guitar player who plays bass in a Progressive Rock band, keyboards in my MIDI studio, and saxophone in a community concert band. Go figure! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:30:58 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" Subject: Xenakis The comments about Xenakis's music on this list have been thoroughly intriguing. I was fortunate enough to utilize some of his sketches for a masters thesis at Maryland back in 93, and am reading a paper on his MISTS on Nov.6 at the SMT conference in Tallahassee. This is a shameless plug. There is another edition of "Formalized Music" out (I believe in 1991 or 92) that updates many of the theories he discussed in the first edition. His insights on granular synthesis, forecasted in the 50's, have proven to be invaluable to composers today. Xenakis is now working (at age 72) at CEMAMu in Paris. Incidentally, Boulez is still at IRCAM, I believe. I have always found it interesting that both of these composers, as students of Messiaen, went in such opposite directions! May I suggest a recording of X's chamber music by the Arditti String Quartet. They are absolutely phenomenal players! As for the many instances of phobia of academia that have made their way onto the list, I would ask only acceptance of the academics. There have been many wonderful contributions by both those closely associated with the University and those who remain adamantly outside. True, there are professors, etc., who operate on fear, just as there are 'outsiders'. I would suggest that, in our century when the questions about music start dealing more with the 'how' than with the 'what', we might engage in accepting 'analysis' and deterministic composition as additional ways of experiencing music. It is only through fear that music can be 'killed'.