EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 70, Issue 08 This issue's topics: bad hands So where's the next installment on the conference? Carpal Tunnel (9 messages) Apple adjustable keyboard (4 messages) Carpal Tunnel, stretching (10 messages) RSI/CTS Syndromes- was Carpal Tunnel Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . Please send articles to emusic-l@american.edu. Administrative mail should be directed to the editor at the address above. You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 18:56:29 -0500 From: Joe McMahon Subject: So where's the next installment on the conference? It's waiting until I get my carpal tunnel back under control again. Too many 11 and 12-hour days in the past couple weeks. --- Joe M. -- csound - anything you can imagine... in about an hour. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 08:50:20 LCL From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel Joe, Sorry you're suffering from the wrist gotchas. This is not quite germaine to the list, but since we're all at some risk, maybe it will help. I suffer from tendonitis along the back of one arm (same cause, too much typing, too many deadlines). I recently picked up the Microsoft Natural Keyboard ($100) for my PC at work. Although I've only had it for a week, I can type a lot more before the arm gets me. Results are encouraging enough that I'm going to pick up the Apple Adjustable Keyboard for my Mac at home. If you -- or anybody else on the list -- is suffering, then consider this a recommendation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:04:06 LCL From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel Thanks for the warning on the Apple Keyboard. I'll be sure to try first. Can you recommend any non-Apple ADB keyboards with an ergonomic layout? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:56:02 -0800 From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel >I recently picked up the Microsoft Natural Keyboard ($100) for my PC >at work. [...] Results are encouraging enough that I'm going to pick >up the Apple Adjustable Keyboard for my Mac at home. Have you actually used the Apple keyboard? IMHO, they're awful. The only thing good about them is the split feature; there are many things bad about them: * many of the "extra" keys (e.g. page up, home, etc.) as well as the function keys are not real keys, but small, hard- to-press buttons. The ESC key is also this way. If you use those keys a lot (e.g. for text editing), the Adjustable keyboard will slow you down badly, and require more effort from your fingers. * the extra keys, and the numeric keypad, are located farther away from the QWERTY keys than on a regular keyboard, forcing you to make a longer reach. * poor arrow key layout * small and fewer modifier keys (i.e. command, option, control) * larger footprint than a regular keyboard, even without using the split feature * some software compatibility problems (believe it or not) In other words, I'd highly recommend that you spend some time with one before you hand over your money. I used one at work briefly, and almost immediately decided that my regular Apple Extended Keyboard, with the addition of a wrist pad, was ergonomically better. Just my $0.02 worth, of course. :-) --Adam Adam Schabtach nebulous@netcom.com _ _ __ __ ___ ___ ____ _____ _____ ______ ______ ______ _____ _____ ____ ____ ___ __ __ _ "...Some things are easier to absorb when there are fewer choices." --Metlay ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:38:56 -0500 From: Tom Zougas Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel I'll second the vote that the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is good for relaxed typing. What to do on a musical keyboard? I find when I'm practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Michael Carnes wrote: > Joe, > Sorry you're suffering from the wrist gotchas. This is not quite > germaine to the list, but since we're all at some risk, maybe it will > help. I suffer from tendonitis along the back of one arm (same cause, > too much typing, too many deadlines). I recently picked up the > Microsoft Natural Keyboard ($100) for my PC at work. Although I've only > had it for a week, I can type a lot more before the arm gets me. Results > are encouraging enough that I'm going to pick up the Apple Adjustable > Keyboard for my Mac at home. If you -- or anybody else on the list -- > is suffering, then consider this a recommendation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:19:18 CST From: James Porter Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel One of the main causes of carpal tunnel syndrome is keeping a large amount of stress on a particular joint/tendon/muscle for an extended period of time. Factory workers, or anyone doing a lot of work with their hands, for that matter, are susceptible. Years ago, my piano teacher cautioned me against keeping my hands and forearms in the same position for too long. When practicing for velocity, the trick is to play from your shoulders, not from your hands and forearms. Put your body into it. It's hard to describe here, but easy to demonstrate. You're just pushing from BEHIND the elbow. Everything forward of the elbow should be relaxed. My teacher would demonstrate this by lifting my elbows while I was playing. If he could lift them with, like a single finger, then I was playing properly. With practice, you can have a tremendous amount of control this way, especially of dynamics. Hope that was helpful. P.s. I'll be getting the Microsoft keyboard this weekend. >I'll second the vote that the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is good for >relaxed typing. What to do on a musical keyboard? I find when I'm >practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness >as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? > >On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Michael Carnes wrote: >> Joe, >> Sorry you're suffering from the wrist gotchas. This is not quite >> germaine to the list, but since we're all at some risk, maybe it will >> help. I suffer from tendonitis along the back of one arm (same cause, >> too much typing, too many deadlines). I recently picked up the >> Microsoft Natural Keyboard ($100) for my PC at work. Although I've only >> had it for a week, I can type a lot more before the arm gets me. Results >> are encouraging enough that I'm going to pick up the Apple Adjustable >> Keyboard for my Mac at home. If you -- or anybody else on the list -- >> is suffering, then consider this a recommendation. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:10:11 PST From: Tapas Das Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Tom Zougas wrote: > What to do on a musical keyboard? I find when I'm > practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness > as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? I would suggest to give your weighted piano action keyboard a break and give the Korg O1W/FD Pro synth action keyboard a try. It is a joy to play on these light responsive keys. You can play on for hours without causing strain to your fingers. Tapas Das. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 10:54:59 -0500 From: Brian Shaw Subject: Re Carpal Tunnel >Can you recommend any non-Apple ADB keyboards with an >ergonomic layout? I'm pretty sure you can get an ADB adapter for PC-based keyboards. This would let you use the Microsoft Keyboard on a Macintosh. If I come across any details I'll send them. B Shaw ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:19:51 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel >I find when I'm >practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness >as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? A good piano teacher. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 09:14:27 -0500 From: "ED BERLETT, MUSIC PREPARATORY" Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel >>I find when I'm >>practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness >>as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? >A good piano teacher. > > > Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com AMEN. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 03:35:59 -0500 From: "Jody Whitesides." Subject: Re Carpal Tunnel There is one thing that everyone here has forgotten about carpal tunnel syndrome. That it is preventable. What causes CTS has already been written on the list. So here is a way to prevent it. First, before doing any physical action with the hands (i.e. the wrists, and fingers) it is a good (no make that, imperitive) idea to stretch the hands. The reason for this is because they are muscles that are getting a workout. I say this because you wouldn't see a good runner run without stretching, or any pro athelete for that matter. In musician terms the hands are the muscles that are going the distance and should be warmed up before that journey. This does not mean to play scales (or type) slowly as a warmup. This means to take the time to stretch everything involved, then do your warmup scales. Then the next thing is to watch out for when your hands seem to get stiff. If this happens, then quit what you're doing and rest the muscles. You could also re-stretch them again to loosen them up. Obviously I can't go into detail on each stretch that is good for the hands here. But I'd bet that at the local bookstore there is a good book on stretching all parts of the body. Chuss! Jody Whitesides Amalgam@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:59:02 CET From: Jacek Latanowicz Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel On Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:38:56 -0500 Tom Zougas said: >I'll second the vote that the Microsoft Natural Keyboard is good for >relaxed typing. What to do on a musical keyboard? I find when I'm >practicing for velocity, my forearms get the same kind of soreness >as when typing too much on a regular keyboard. Any recommendations? > HI ! I would reccomend some volleyball :) Or some physical work , instead of brain work. Or best roccomndation, go to some pub and play some flipper. You will not only train strenght (when loosing patience) but also reflex and speed of performance. :) Just a small sugestion. :) Jacek L. >On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Michael Carnes wrote: >> Joe, >> Sorry you're suffering from the wrist gotchas. This is not quite >> germaine to the list, but since we're all at some risk, maybe it will >> help. I suffer from tendonitis along the back of one arm (same cause, >> too much typing, too many deadlines). I recently picked up the >> Microsoft Natural Keyboard ($100) for my PC at work. Although I've only >> had it for a week, I can type a lot more before the arm gets me. Results >> are encouraging enough that I'm going to pick up the Apple Adjustable >> Keyboard for my Mac at home. If you -- or anybody else on the list -- >> is suffering, then consider this a recommendation. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:04:18 -500 From: Bob Needham Subject: Apple adjustable keyboard Here's one strong vote in favor of the Apple Adjustable Keyboard. The things the earlier poster mentioned don't bug me a bit, and there are lots of things I like about it -- like the on/off record key and the ability to place the extended keypad either to the left or the right of the main keyboard. I find this allows my left hand to shoulder a more even share of the typing load--on a regular keyboard my right wrist gets sore because of extensive use of the arrow keys. The keyboard split is nice too. ==================== Bob Needham Chelsea, Michigan bobby@oeonline.com "Someday, everything is gonna be different--when I paint my masterpiece."-Dylan ==================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:19:20 -0500 From: Ted Johnson Subject: Re: Apple adjustable keyboard What do computer keyboards have to do with electronic music? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:32:20 -0500 From: Joshua Fried Subject: Re: What do computer keys have to do wit' it? > > What do computer keyboards have to do with electronic music? > For many of us, a whole lot! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 06:54:21 -0500 From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Apple adjustable keyboard >What do computer keyboards have to do with electronic music? In my case, a lot. As a computer programmer in my day job, I do a *lot* of typing. If your work station (as in desk/chair/keyboard combination) is badly configured, you will gradually injure your hands due to the repetitive nature of typing. Among other things, this can lead to carpal tunnel syndrome, which I will not bore you with the details of. Suffice it to say that this can lead to decreased mobility and strength and therefore to decreased ability to play keyboards as well as type on them. I don't even want to tell you how much trying to *program* my synth hurts when the CTS is flaring up, let alone trying to play pressure-sensitive patches. (ps - thanks to all who wrote with suggestions: I'm on my doctor's recommended regiment of magnesium and vitamin B6, along with Advil as required and ice at night, Things are improving slowly.) --- Joe M. -- csound - anything you can imagine... in about an hour. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 05:15:06 -0800 From: Adam Schabtach Subject: Re: Apple adjustable keyboard >>What do computer keyboards have to do with electronic music? > >In my case, a lot. As a computer programmer in my day job, I do a *lot* of >typing. In my case, a lot also. Not only do my day jobs (either programming or tech writing) usually involve typing, but much of my electronic music production does also. I compose much of my work directly at the computer, rather than using a musical keyboard. Usually I'm using a mouse rather than the keyboard, but I occasionally write a fair amount of code as part of my compositional process. By coincidence, over the weekend I had a chance to use the Microsoft keyboard that was mentioned at the beginning of this thread. It is indeed a nice keyboard, and it's vastly superior to the Apple Adjustable keyboard. Having seen both now, I'm even more disappointed by the Apple version. --Adam Adam Schabtach nebulous@netcom.com _ _ __ __ ___ ___ ____ _____ _____ ______ ______ ______ _____ _____ ____ ____ ___ __ __ _ "...Some things are easier to absorb when there are fewer choices." --Metlay ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:25:36 -0500 From: Peter Kirn Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching Hi Jody, I've never had trouble with the hands... what about the back, though? Anybody know a good stretch for the back for keyboard players? Obviously posture plays a key role here, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has any techniques they use to relieve tension before playing. On those 4 and 5 am sessions, this gets to be even more important... Peter Kirn - Jensoft Media PeteKirn@aol.com 11:50:20 a on 11/20/94 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 13:26:14 -0600 From: Otis Gray Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Peter Kirn wrote: > Hi Jody, > > I've never had trouble with the hands... what about the back, though? > Anybody know a good stretch for the back for keyboard players? Obviously > posture plays a key role here, but I'd be interested to know if anyone has > any techniques they use to relieve tension before playing. > > On those 4 and 5 am sessions, this gets to be even more important... > > Peter Kirn - Jensoft Media > PeteKirn@aol.com > 11:50:20 a on 11/20/94 Check into Alexander Technique. It's a method of using the body in an efficient, natural way. For example, the skeleton( somebody correct if I'm wrong) is a self-supporting mechanism if aligned properly. The trouble is that people tend to slouch all the time. This puts a strain on the back muscles and does not utilize the skeletal system as nature designed it to be used. Also, try sit-ups. Strengthening the stomach muscles will help coiunter the strain on your back muscles. ogray@sun.cis.smu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:44:11 LCL From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching There's a very good book on stretches written by (somebody) Adams. Lots of targeted routines. I have it at home somewhere. If I find it, I'll post more. Sorry if this topic is boring to some of you. I'll bet the level of interest is directly related to age. For those of you who are still younger and not suffering, this problem can affect your music-making in ways you can't imagine. It's not much different from being a jock and learning the right techniques can make a huge difference in the lengths of your careers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:50:01 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Re Carpal Tunnel, stretching > I say this because you wouldn't see a good runner run without stretching, or >any pro athelete for that matter. I hate to get off-topic here, but while muscle warm-up is vitally important, I've never been convinced that stretching is a good way to achieve it, although a lot of athletes seem to find it important. There are lots of good Qigong exercises which open up the acupressure points through the hands which are, IMHO, a lot more anatomically sensible and with much less risk of causing trouble; just stretching for the hell of it might well be dangerous. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:09:12 -0500 From: Peter Kirn Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching "Check into Alexander Technique. It's a method of using the body in an efficient, natural way." Will do. Thanks! "Also, try sit-ups. Strengthening the stomach muscles will help coiunter the strain on your back muscles." Actually, I can vouch for this myself... I've been working the abs/diaphragm lately and it has dramatically reduced back aches. I've been using the Pilates Series, and have a good teacher there. I had noticed the difference, but didn't think much about why it would help the back... Peter Kirn - Jensoft Media PeteKirn@aol.com 6:03:24 p on 11/20/94 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:52:24 LCL From: Michael Carnes Subject: Re: Re Carpal Tunnel, stretching The stretching book I mentioned yesterday is: Stretching, by Bob Anderson Shelter Publications, Inc (Bolinas, CA) It's readily available in most any good bookstore. I didn't see much in it for the wrists or arms, but there is a lot that can help posture. The appropriate stretches *can* make a difference, but you probably should get the advice of a real physical therapist before embarking (one with a real education). I say this with before-and-after experience with a longterm back condition. Anyway, I think I'm about done with this subject. I would appreciate any alternate keyboard information that any- one might come across. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 04:17:51 -0500 From: "Jody Whitesides." Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching A good book on alexander technique is: "Not pulling strings" I'm not sure of the author. This book is geared for learning to teach, but it has many useful items for the playing musician. It isn't an easy book to find, but is well worth it's value. Chuss! Jody Whitesides / "Its what's played between the notes that is golden" / Amalgam@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 18:49:57 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching > Check into Alexander Technique. I'd second this. I've never tried Alexander but know people who teach it. A decent bit of Shiatsu is worth tracking down as well. >Strengthening the stomach muscles will help >coiunter the strain on your back muscles. Strong stomach muscles are central to a lot of the Chinese movement forms, and do take a lot of the load off the spine, knees, and other generally dodgy bits of human mechanical design. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:42:39 -0500 From: Peter Kirn Subject: Re: Carpal Tunnel, stretching "For those of you who are still younger and not suffering, this problem can affect your music-making in ways you can't imagine." And, of course, it's not just a matter of getting it to the point where you're really suffering ...it's all part of technique. You don't have to be in physical pain when doing something for warm-ups to be important with any sort of physical activity. I think probably a lot of people forget that music making is physical, and even more so with electronic music. So it's certainly important! I'm looking forward to seeing the book if you find it! Peter Kirn - Jensoft Media PeteKirn@aol.com 8:01:17 p on 11/21/94 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:42:43 -0500 From: Peter Kirn Subject: Re: Re Carpal Tunnel, stretching "I hate to get off-topic here" I don't think it's off-topic at all. "There are lots of good Qigong exercises which open up the acupressure points through the hands" Any reccomendations here for learning these? "just stretching for the hell of it might well be dangerous." Absolutely; I'm sure it is. Not that there aren't stretches that could help, if properly learned. Stretching in an incorrect way, though, is definitely dangerous. Peter Kirn - Jensoft Media PeteKirn@aol.com 8:04:35 p on 11/21/94 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:34:48 EST From: "Nelson R. Pardee" Subject: RSI/CTS Syndromes- was Carpal Tunnel While Carpal Tunnel is the popular description, Repetitive Stress Injuries and Cumulative Trauma Syndrome are probably more accurate. Carpal Tunnel is only one of the problems that a pain sufferer might have. Unfortunately, it's the only one many doctors know about; hence the large numbers of surgery for it, and the many failures of the surgery. To give one example: carpal tunnel is a nerve entrapment problem. But the entrapment can occur anywhere from from the neck to the wrist (and may occur in multiple places). There are other problems than nerve entrapment, as well. Problems can be caused/aggravated not only by repetitive motion, but by stress, holding a body part in a single position for a long time (static tension), poor position, etc. My daughter's problems (she is a flutist) have been greatly helped by the relaxation and breathing exercises prescribed by her teacher. CTS is a singularly complex problem, complicated by the enormous differences between individual human bodies. One example is the proliferation of so-called ergonomic keyboards. Several e-music posters have liked the Microsoft keyboard, but at least one has panned it. Media reviews have been mixed, especially in regard to the key touch. I especially have liked the Lexmark keyboard; they appear to have fixed a major drawback by adding a numeric keypad. For those who have more interest in the subject, I recommend the book "Repetitive Strain Injuries: A Computer User's Guide" by Emil Pascarelli, M.D. and Deborah Quilter, ISBN 0-471-59533-0, $14.95 (sorry- forgot publisher). Pascarelli mostly treats musicians with RSIs; computer user treatment is an extension of that practice. Dr. Emil Pascarelli is at the Miller Institute for Performing Artists and is associated with St. Luke's and Roosevelt hospitals (I don't have the full name), in NYC. He and the institute emphasize RE-TRAINING. There are a few (fewer than half dozen) similar programs around the US; I believe one in SF and one in North Carolina. There are at least three electronic mailing lists devoted to the subject. SOREHAND, located at UCSFVM, is VERY active. C+HEALTH@IUBVM has some traffic, and sometimes has some of the same material. RSI-EAST has relatively infrequent postings. You can subscribe by sending mail to your closest LISTSERV address (LISTSERV@SUVM.SYR.EDU will do) with the single line SUBSCRIBE SOREHAND your full name (substitute C+HEALTH or RSI-EAST) Related to SOREHAND is an FTP server with lots of useful information on mice, keyboards (including pictures), and other good stuff. Some of it is updated monthly. These lists cover legal and psychological issues as well as the ergonomics (getting the doctor paid for, how to cope with no longer being able to do your job, etc.) Miscellaneous comment: before pronouncing any change (a new keyboard, etc.) a "cure", remember that changing things can cause a temporary improvement (arm rests turned out to be a minor help for me after initially appearing very promising). Changes can help old problems but introduce new ones (stress the arms/ hands, etc. in different ways). I apologize for the length of this posting, but many EMUSIC readers combine two high risk elements for CTS: you are musicians, and you use computers. Think about not being able to do one or both any more. Don't think it can't happen to you; these kinds of injuries tend to build up over a long time (for me, 15 years), and they may take years of treatment to go away (if they do). Disclaimer: I'm a computer type, not a health professional. I got interested because I hurt most of the time while typing, and some of the time while not. The medical attention I got, while helpful, didn't solve my problems. --Nelson R. Pardee, Computing & Media Services, Syracuse University -- --120 Hinds Hall, Syracuse, NY 13244-1190 USA (315)443-1079 -- --Bitnet: ACDNRP@SUVM Internet: NRPARDEE@SYR.EDU -- ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************