EMUSIC-L Digest Volume 70, Issue 16 This issue's topics: Getting orchestral Proteus II Brass Patches (8 messages) french horn discussion groups (3 messages) Orchestral Patches (3 messages) Your EMUSIC-L Digest moderator is Joe McMahon . Please send articles to emusic-l@american.edu. Administrative mail should be directed to the editor at the address above. You may subscribe to EMUSIC-L by sending mail to listserv@american.edu with the line "SUB EMUSIC-L your name" as the text. The EMUSIC-L archive is a service of SunSite (sunsite.unc.edu) at the University of North Carolina. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:00:50 -0500 From: Eric Richards Subject: Proteus II Brass Patches Greetings. I recently did a MIDI-based demo using the Proteus II as a recording component. All MIDI devices had their individual effects disabled (if they had 'em) and were routed through an Alesis Quadraverb for signal processing. There was a section in one of the pieces where the orchestral texture got rather "thick" and I noticed that the Trumpet and Trombone patches (specifically "Trumpet 2" and "Trombone 1") seemed to get-for lack of a better word-"grainy". A colleague suggested that the Proteus' internal converters were probably overloading and that I should edit each channel's output so that only a maximum value of 100 (rather than 127) is possible. I did it and compensated in the mix by increasing the gain. It does appear to have helped somewhat, but has anybody else dealt with this? Also, the Trumpet and Trombone patches seem rather thin sounding. I'm a trombonist, so I guess I'm is particularly sensitive to the digital recreation of my own family of instruments. Anybody, have any suggestions addressing: 1.) What can I do to "thicken" them without bringing out the electronic aspect of the sound? I hope that didn't sound too silly, I just mean that chorusing and other strategies that I've tried seem to really emphasize to the listener that "HEY, THESE ARE NOT REAL BRASS INSTRUMENTS". Depending on the client, sometimes that is the exact opposite impression one is trying to create... 2.) Can anyone recommend any outstanding modules (not samplers) with good commercial or jazz oriented brass and saxophone patches? Thanks in advance, Ericrich@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:46:49 -0500 From: Thom Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches Eric, For brass patches, I am fond of the Yamaha TG series. I have a TG55 - give it a whirl. Thom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:10:08 -0500 From: Ab Wilson Subject: Proteus II Brass Patches Eric Richards writes: > 1.) What can I do to "thicken" them without bringing out the electronic > aspect of the sound? You could try doubling the parts in a human way. Play through the parts twice and record the results on separate tracks. Don't use any quantisation and you should end up with a more realistic ensemble effect then you'd get by adding chorus or adding another layer to the sound detuned against the first. BTW I nearly didn't post this reply because you posted your original message to both groups. I recieve on average two hundred mail messages a day and it doesn't help when I get half of them twice. Think before you post. If somebody is not subscribed to a group then it is because they don't want mail from it. Cross posting to same message to a number of groups only means that people will recieve messages that they don't want. Ab. -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:23:36 EST From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches Ericrich@aol.com has a common problem: > Also, the Trumpet and Trombone patches seem rather thin sounding. > I'm a trombonist, so I guess I'm is particularly sensitive to the digital > recreation of my own family of instruments. Anybody, have any suggestions > addressing: > 1.) What can I do to "thicken" them without bringing out the electronic > aspect of the sound? Since you don't like the results of processing, I'm afraid that my proposal might be too expensive for some, but it's worth a try. Buy, beg, borrow, and steal other modules. LEVEL 1: Run the sequencer track with the trombone part to to multiple modules, each set to a trombone patch. Just like multiple 'bones in a band or orchestra, things will thicken up a bit. LEVEL 2: Instead of using one sequencer track, use one MIDI channel per module, each with its own performance of the same part. Obviously, quantization should be off so that start and stop times of each part's notes will have a statistical distribution. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com multiple modules ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:46:41 CST From: Darwin Grosse Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches >Since you don't like the results of processing, I'm afraid that my >proposal might be too expensive for some, but it's worth a try. Buy, >beg, borrow, and steal other modules. Well, before totally abandoning processing, I'd try a bit of compression as well. Depending on the compressor, the sound will "smoothen" a bit, allowing for better section blends... >LEVEL 1: Run the sequencer track >with the trombone part to to multiple modules, each set to a trombone >patch. Just like multiple 'bones in a band or orchestra, things will >thicken up a bit. Or, to several MIDI channels in a single module, each set to variations of the 'bones patchs. Most modules will have several patches with "boney" qualities. Mix and match between them, and vary the controllers and velocities used. >LEVEL 2: Instead of using one sequencer track, use >one MIDI channel per module, each with its own performance of the same >part. Obviously, quantization should be off so that start and stop >times of each part's notes will have a statistical distribution. At a somewhat more severe level, you can send each trombone voice (of the section's chord) to a seperate module. Variances in the controllers, volume, velocity and aftertouch in each voice will provide the illusion of "individual" players in a section. Additionally, you may want to adjust the note-off timing - in my experience, you can get good "note-on quantization" from live players, but real horn players tend to have less accurate "note-off" timing. The above works particularily well with small section jazz or pop horn arraingements. Also, when creating a section with multiple horns, keep in mind the real attack times of different instruments - a bari sax will seldom bite anywhere near the trumpet players. The actual timing depend on the consumption habits of the individual player :-D One final note - the Proteus brass attempts to mimic "traditional" brass - a wholly different beast than pop brass. The best luck I've had with non- sampler (i.e. sample-playback) brass was with the Peavey DPM-3 series keyboard. [ddg] .............................................................................. Darwin Grosse . (414) 377-2946(h)/359-9800(w) . ddg@devlac.ems.com .............................................................................. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 01:45:29 -0500 From: Einar John Stromnes Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches "RE: Ericrich@AOL.COM's message : Can anyone recommend any outstanding modules (not samplers) with good commercial or jazz oriented brass and saxophone patches?" I know of no convincing sax patches anywhere in sound module land, but the ''soft trumpet'' patch on my U20 Roland is good to excellent in both trombone and trumpet registers, and trombone glissandos are convincing using the bender lever judiciously on my sequencer. U20 is a pulse-code modulation synthesis architecture, rather than the straight sampling synthesis from the EMU engine. The Roland module with the same output as the U20 keyboard is the U220. Stromsong ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 18:47:00 -0800 From: atomic city Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches Einar John Stromnes writes-- > >. U20 is a pulse-code modulation >synthesis architecture, rather than the straight sampling synthesis from the >EMU engine. This is correct only in terms of advertising jargon. The RS-PCM synthesis used by the Roland U series is sample playback, no different than that of the Emu boards except in a few bits of ornamentation like modulation sources and so on. The difference in playability has to do with both the samples themselves and the performance control of those samples, not with some fundamental difference in architecture. That being said, I would like to add my vote of support for the U series as a means of rich and expressive, if not entirely realistic, sample playback; I own and have used extensively both a U-220 and a U-50, and rely on them heavily for my music. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * atomic@netcom.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Let's just say I'm what you might call globally impaired." (d. harkless) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 19:16:50 +0000 From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Proteus II Brass Patches >>U20 is a pulse-code modulation >>synthesis architecture, rather than the straight sampling synthesis from the >>EMU engine. > >This is correct only in terms of advertising jargon. I agree. I'd ask further: how can sample ROM be PCM? PCM is a linear encoding of a digital signal; ROM is linearly-addressed memory, non? >I would like to add my vote of support for the U series as >a means of rich and expressive, if not entirely realistic, sample >playback; Agreed; but I like the Roland sound generally. I just hate their operating systems and MIDI interfacing (sysex aside, which is usually very good, curiously). Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:05:13 -0600 From: patton jeff scot Subject: french horn discussion groups does anyone out there know of any discussion groups for brass instruments and french horn discussion groups specifically. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:39:41 EST From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: french horn discussion groups > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 12:05:13 -0600 > From: AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-emusic-l@ig2.att.att.com > Subject: french horn discussion groups > > does anyone out there know of any discussion groups for brass instruments > and french horn discussion groups specifically. There is a brass group you can try. Send email to the list administrator, Ted Zateslo at this address: brass-request@geomag.gly.fsu.edu To post to the list, use this address: brass@geomag.gly.fsu.edu You can even ask to get it in digest form. There is an anonymous ftp site at geomag.gly.fsu.edu in the directory /pub/brass. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com WARNING: This product attracts every other piece of matter in the universe, including the products of other manufacturers, with a force proportional to the product of the masses and inversely proportional to the distance between them. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 21:31:19 -0700 From: Karen Anne Martin <45650@EF.GC.MARICOPA.EDU> Subject: Re: french horn discussion groups Try brass@geomag.gly.fsu.edu To subscribe, try brass-request@geomag.gly.fsu.edu Let me know if this helps. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 23:50:00 PST From: Craig Marks Subject: Orchestral Patches Hi! I'm looking for a single module (or banks of patches for an M1) that has good quality orchestral sounds. I'm doing lots of orchestral composition and need to preview my pieces. Any suggestions for modules? Suggested Avg. prices new and used (so I don't get taken for a ride)? Any anecdotes or "buyer beware's" about any products? Thanks for any help you can provide. -Craig ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 09:19:28 -0500 From: "Michael A. Michalski." Subject: Re: Orchestral Patches >Hi! I'm looking for a single module (or banks of patches for an M1) >that has good quality orchestral sounds. I'm doing lots of orchestral >composition and need to preview my pieces. Any suggestions for >modules? Suggested Avg. prices new and used (so I don't get >taken for a ride)? Any anecdotes or "buyer beware's" about any >products? Thanks for any help you can provide. -Craig I have always been fond of the Proteus orchestral sounds. The Proteus 2 might be worht a look. I have seen them used for around $500. I use a Proteus FX. It contains some of the sounds of the Proteus 2 along with some of the Proteus 1 sounds. I picked it up new for $525. I have also seen mention of the Roland JV series although I can't personally vouch for them. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 17:07:52 CET From: Jacek Latanowicz Subject: Re: Orchestral Patches On Sat, 12 Nov 1994 23:50:00 PST Craig Marks said: >Hi! I'm looking for a single module (or banks of patches for an M1) that >has good quality orchestral sounds. I'm doing lots of orchestral composition >and need to preview my pieces. Any suggestions for modules? Suggested Avg. >prices new and used (so I don't get taken for a ride)? Any anecdotes or >"buyer beware's" about any products? Thanks for any help you can >provide. -Craig Hi ! Try Roland JV880 and an 'orchestral' ram expansion. Roland makes some pretty good natural sounds..(except sax) I heard that JV series are good and especially in orchestral sounds. Jacek L. ------------------------------ End of the EMUSIC-L Digest ******************************