========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:37:23 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Laurie Anderson Concert review (DC, 4/11) Send her to Australia. It's been a long time since 1986! Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:55:28 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: inappropriate question Hello James... > and i still say robert moog is god, or at least that he deserves a lot more > recognition in this mondo tech world than he gets. Perhaps the fact that people are buying his early analog stuff left, right and centre is recognition enough. At least we still get to hear what he did. Rupert Neve probably feels the same way. Still wishing to find a few 1073s in a junk sale! David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 12:05:30 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: composers/audiences Hello all, James Vernon says.. >Contemporary audiences do not understand new music because it exists so far >outside the boundaries of the audiences' experience. Who is to blame for >this? No one. It is a problem which will always exist, and we should not >lay blame. But we should all attempt to stop dismissing music because we do >not "like" the first hearing of it, or it doesn't "do anything" for us. >Allow it to exist, for its own sake. Good luck! I think that some of the folks here would like it if more people overall took that attitude, record companies included. But it costs to make and distribute the stuff. If we don't do that, no one gets to hear it (whether they want to or not) and its existence will be neither here nor there. Everyone wants *some* recognition, at least for what they have to 'say'. Otherwise no one would be complaining about this! Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 12:29:39 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Sorry state. Hello emusicers, it seems sad to me that Michael Whitten wrote as he did. Given Joe's previous bars against advertising on emusic-l, it seemed a bit strange that he and Mike started talking about Team Metlay's stuff. It did seem like an ad, but, as I read, it seemed that they were expounding more on the techniques they used to produce their work. The advertising component might have been slightly out of keeping, but at least we can get access to their work if we have been excited by their descriptions. Of course, the advertising situation isn't helped by people writing *to the list* to get info rather than writing privately to Mike and Joe. >Nick, Mike, and Joe are the de facto deities of the emusic-l, but their >self-serving religion is getting old. I don't see this trio as forming any sort of religion. Sure, they send in- jokes to one another that keep the rest of use guessing, but they've known one another a bit longer than I or many others have. Someetimes some of this stuff would be better done by private mail, but, given that it is often embedded in or proceeded by various pearls of wisdom, I'm willing to put up with it. Now, before you (Michael) or anyone else starts accusing me of being an apologist for Mike, Joe or Nick, I should say that I've had my disagreements with them and often in private because such things were ot necessarily relevant to the list. If you are disappointed at the lack of flame these three or any other regulars attract, then do something about it. Write and criticise. I've been on this list for about a year but I've never seen your name (atleast, if I did, it was a long time ago). If you just sit back and take it and don't try to dish it out sometimes (by this I don't mean unbridled flaming), then you've only got yourself to blame. You could have had a bearing on the way things go on this list, but didn't exercise the option. Too bad! Judging from the tone of your mail, we might have had a few more interesting things to read if you had contributed. As for the rest of you emusic and synth folks, I like it here. The criticism is mostly well-considered, issues are discussed and debated well, and I'm also entertained. Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au P.S. If Joe or Mike are on the job quickly, chances are that Michael Whitten won't see this so maybe I wasted my time! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 22:36:03 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Dustin McIntyre Subject: Re: Paul Shaeffer's Setup Paul has a JD-800 right up front as a primary controller. Perhaps not ideal, but interesting. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 23:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Sorry state. In-Reply-To: <01HPD8PBWDIU9GW52T@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU> from "David Rodger" at Apr 15, 95 12:29:39 pm > P.S. If Joe or Mike are on the job quickly, chances are that Michael Whitten > won't see this so maybe I wasted my time! > Unfortunately he removed himself very quickly after sending the message. He didn't see mine either. Oh well. I can't say I'm terribly interested in going out of my way to send apologies to people who are so disinterested as to post nastygrams and then punt before waiting for replies, studied or otherwise. Again: think I suck? Write me and tell me: mcmahon@clark.net. (My mood has improved, but I *am* thinking about the message and will continue to keep it in mind.) --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 23:37:04 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" Subject: EWI's Comments: To: emusic-list Has anyone on this list written for the EWI? If so, I'd like to get some information (perhaps a score as well as a tape) that will give me some more compositional insight. A friend has one, and has asked me to write something. So, in collaboration with him (and, hopefully with some of you) I'd like to hear about other experiences with this instrument. My first exposure to the EWI was Michael Brecker's first solo album, on a track entitled Original Rays. Beautiful, I've loved this sound for a long time, but haven't had the opportunity to write for one with hands on experience. Thanks! Scott McCoy mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 13:02:55 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Amalgam of threads Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Hello emusicers, I have called this message amalgam of threads becasue I was inspired by recent postings under the headings Composers/Audiences, Those Wacky Ackydemicks (my achey breaky heart!??) and (whatever it was) Philistines. I am wondering what some of you might think of some of my experiences with my band. In a way, I see it as somewhat related to your experiences of finding acceptance (or lack of it) for your music. I play with a band called Adzohu, which does traditional Ghanaian music and dance. I won't go into how this started (it'd be another 21k of ASCII!) but we have been doing it for a while and studying the music very closely in order to play it and dance properly. We do have Ghanaian teachers and informants. Over the years we have at various times agonized over whether we white folks from suburban Australia should be doing this. Often, this question was not resolved and our love of the music and performing it won the battle, so we kept on with it. In 1992, we went on tour with Ko Nimo, a Ghanaian guitarist andfolklorist and his protege master drummer Kojo Owusu (still in Australia and playing with us). In Canberra (where about 40 Ghanaians live, along with other Africans), a guy came up to us afterwards and accused us of cultural appropriation (anyone care to define that!?) We tried to explain that we had always done this with the approval of authoritative teachers and that people seemed to appreciate and applaud our efforts. But it didn't seem to satisfy him. At other times, people just didn't get it. They probably wouldn't have understood African music much anyway, but with us doing it... well, you cn probably imagine. After all those years, though, it was the Sydney gig (on the same tour with Ko Nimo and Kojo) which gave us all the justification we needed. There are a lot of Ghanaians there and they loved the show. They liked our playing and our dancing. And they loved the fact that we had brought Ko Nimo, someone whom they *never* expected to see in Australia, to them. Several went up to Ko and said, "What is going on? These people [meaning us] sound just like Ghanaians!" So now I don;t need any other reasons for doing this than that I love the music and I know I can play it properly. And continued work with Kojo confirms this. He couldn't play what he plays without us to back him. Sure, we learn a lot from him, but we already had a pretty good idea before he came. So where is the parallel with the amalgam of threads? If our music is a bit obscure, out of the mainstream (whatever *that* means) or seeming grounded so much in theory, then we struggle to find a market, to find people who might want to listen to it. As ssomeone previously said, it's not anyone's fault and you can't expect to compensate for Joe Blow's lack of experience. Regardless of the kind of music, soem people are just more interested in music than others (just as some are more interested in their cars or the state of the NBA competition than others). And, of those, only some will be interested in our kind of music. A few others outside this select group might appreciate the skills we use or that we're good at what we do even if they don't particularly like what we do. That's enough for now. Sorry if I'veoverstayed my welcome. I wonder what your thoughts are. Adzohu, too, has played its share of smokey, grimey, deadhead pub gigs! Looking forward to any replies, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 01:45:21 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Bill Calvery Subject: Wavestation [A/D] owners . . . Greetings wavy guys, I just put this VERY COOL instrument in lay-away and can't wait to get it out. It isn't like I could really afford it, but I couldn't pass up a demo unit that had been returned to the factory (that a dealer sold me with a warranty!!!) for $1100. Anyway, I'd like to get a few addresses of some wavestation owners so we could all trade patches/info/problems/etc. Also, what would be the best way for us to trade patches? I don't have an editor/librarian right now and I would suppose there are many others out there who don't either. Suggestions? Later. Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 00:13:00 PDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tony Cappellini Subject: Looking for May 1985 EM Comments: To: synth-l@american.edu, emusic-l@american.edu Comments: cc: analogue@hyperreal.com, cakewalk@lists.colorado.edu, electronica+@andrew.cmu.edu, eps@oak.oakland.edu, PAiA@aol.com Hi guys. Anybody have the May 1985 issue of EM ? I'm looking to get a tape recording of the Soundsheet Craig Anderton (?) did with the Vocoder demos. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 04:46:03 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deved Smith Subject: Re: Paul Shaeffer's Setup There's a K2000 right on top just to his left of the B-3 but that's all I can see. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 08:54:12 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG Subject: Re: Aliasing for fun and profit follow-up Could you tell me the difference between ALIASING and FOLDOVER? Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 09:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: new young industrial crazy guy Hello to all subscribers of the Emusic listserv. My name is Brad Barkett, and I am a graduate of Salisbury State University, Maryland, and an electronic musician in an area that scratches its head when you say that. A job as a "poultry technician" is your basic American Dream on the Delmarva peninsula, where I live. Speaking of American, I'd like to remind American University that we disemboweled your rugby team last fall. I have been reading your letters for two days, and already I am sensing a negative pattern of constant bickering and bashing. Let me say that I love to synthesize, program, sequence, and record, and I am excited about the prospect of corresponding with other members of my endangered species, but not if this list takes on the tone of a teen chat line. C'mon guys. Electronic musicians are some of the most brilliant people in the world. What other profession or pasttime combines and requires such strong analytical, AND abstract thought capabilities? And, as intelligent people, we should be able to dissect ourselves, and realize when we are being unproductive. True, this is a frustrating field. I have a degree in Liberal Studies, actually, because SSU has a great studio with no major to accompany it. At first I felt like a college cop-out, designing my own major, one that would cause most employers to reply, "SO?" But when I became able to look at the reality of it, I had actually put in many, many more hours working within my non-marketable field than most standard majors ever would. While I am only 22, and certainly not what I would consider an expert, I would have to say that I am much further down the road in my obscure field than many normal graduating friends of mine, who now have THICK salaries. But I work at Lowe's hardware. To clock an insane, obsessive amount of hours in a field, receiving much praise from both peers and professors all the way, and then to discover the novelty of my skill, and my last four years, to the [musique] concrete and flatly functional workforce, is almost unbearable. Not to be a downer, but the point I truly wish to illuminate here is that many fields that are more lucrative and practical than this one have guilds and unions to support its proponents, but all it seems we have is this electronic medium of e-mail, and we should use it to help one another, to help build the influence of our industry. This is what I have assumed this list was about, and I was quite excited to find it. If it is not, then I shall unsubscribe immediately. My musical tastes and proficiencies are probably not as academic as some of yours. I would like to say that I am fascinated by synthesis in both popular and unpopular formats, but esoteric music is usually spawned of priveledge or martyrdom. In college, I was both, and now that I have realized it, I don't know where to go with it. I probably shouldn't burden a group of people who don't even know me with my personal introspections and reflections, because I am new to this community, but I think I have a lot to offer. Looking forward, Brad Barkett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 10:45:51 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: John Enricco Subject: EWI's and EVI's Scott, I think I have just what you (and maybe other people on this list) are looking for! I was a student at Youngstown State in Ohio and my trumpet teacher through much research bought an Akai EVI. He also found about a Maillist about Wind Controllers and you could write to them and see if they have what you are looking for. The list is: WIND@MORGAN.UCS.MUN.CA (use standard Listserv@ prefix to subscribe) I hope this helps you out!! John Enricco Trptmn@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:27:17 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy In-Reply-To: <950415095303_84038658@aol.com> from "Bradley A. Barkett" at Apr 15, 95 09:53:05 am > I have been reading your letters for two days, and already I am sensing a > negative pattern of constant bickering and bashing. Actually, I think you've just hit us at a bad spot. This is about as bad a spot as I can remember, actually... > Not to be a downer, but the point I truly wish to illuminate here is that > many fields that are more lucrative and practical than this one have guilds > and unions to support its proponents, but all it seems we have is this > electronic medium of e-mail, and we should use it to help one another, to > help build the influence of our industry. This is what I have assumed this > list was about, and I was quite excited to find it. If it is not, then I > shall unsubscribe immediately. Well, generally speaking we do try to support one another. Generally, we're a pretty friendly bunch, but even a small group of friends have arguments once in a while. When you've got 500, it's amazing that there's so little friction. > I probably shouldn't burden a group of people who don't even know me with my > personal introspections and reflections, because I am new to this community, > but I think I have a lot to offer. Not at all - that's what most of us do, really. :) --- Joe M. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:29:05 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Aliasing for fun and profit follow-up In-Reply-To: <950415085412.1e59c@FLO.ORG> from "NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG" at Apr 15, 95 08:54:12 am > > Could you tell me the difference between ALIASING and FOLDOVER? > Thanks > Precisely the same, at least from what I'm talking about here. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 08:53:00 PDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tony Cappellini Subject: Re: Looking for May 1985 Keyboard, NOT EM Comments: To: analogue@hyperreal.com Comments: cc: electronica+@andrew.cmu.edu, synth-l@american.edu, emusic-l@american.edu > >Hi guys. Anybody have the May 1985 issue of EM ? >I'm looking to get a tape recording of the Soundsheet Craig Anderton (?) did >with the Vocoder demos. > > I goofed. That should be the May 1985 issue of Keyboard, NOT, EM. Thanks ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 00:05:10 +0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Charles Lee <93952010@NP.AC.SG> Subject: Roland, Korg or Yamaha? Greetings Hi, I am currently looking at the Roland XP-50 Music Workstation, the Korg X3 Workstation and the Yamaha SY99. And I need some comments and more information regarding these three keyboards before deciding which one to buy. Besides, is there any post or files that have some further specs regarding these three keyboards? Also, what is a good (affordable) speaker or amplifier for home use? Is the headphone a more 'economic' choice? Thanks and Regards. -- Charles KK Lee email: 93952010@np.ac.sg Trump Design fax : (065)569-1590 [] Pager : 410-3557 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Film & Video Department () Ngee Ann Polytechnic () Republic of Singapore "You can do more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word." - Al Capone ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 12:58:55 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Amalgam@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Music copywrights Do you perform these songs in a club somewhere, or on the street? If you perform these songs in some sort of venue then most likely the owner of that venue is paying into one of the performance society's (or at least they are supposed to if they play any kind of recorded music, or host band with covers). So in that case you wouldn't need to worry about payment. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 13:48:48 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deved Smith Subject: Re: May 1985 Keyboard Mag Sorry, October 1986 (Depeche Mode on the cover.) is as far back as I go. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 10:58:55 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Brian Coates Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy >Hello to all subscribers of the Emusic listserv. My name is Brad Barkett, and >I am a graduate of Salisbury State University, Maryland, and an electronic >musician in an area that scratches its head when you say that. Greetings! I lived in Vermont for a while, and I can relate to the situation. There's also a rush that comes with that. Similar, I suppose, to that of a kid walking down the street with a mohawk, giggling to himself,' hehe. I'm _different_ from these people! '. >C'mon guys. Electronic musicians are some of the most brilliant people in the >world. Of course! >we should be able to dissect ourselves, and realize when we are being >unproductive. Productivity is somewhat objective. Sometimes people have to vent. I haven't seen it _that_ often, but you can't just bottle things up all the time. It's good to get issues off your chest sometimes, and then get on with things. >True, this is a frustrating field. Only if you take things too seriously. That's what I found out. I got to a point where I was so competitive, and so picky about my music, that it wasn't anything enjoyable anymore. I'm not saying become lax, or lazy, just don't get to a point where things frustrate you. Few of us are ever going to make a lot of money with music. In fact, just the opposite. It's the same with most things, take golf for instance. Or auto collectors. You love it so you do it. If you want to make a living at something, look into service oriented interests. When music starts to frustrate you, something's wrong. >I probably shouldn't burden a group of people who don't even know me with my >personal introspections and reflections, because I am new to this community, No. Not at all. Just what I was saying about venting. There.. Don't you feel better now? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5 6 4 .-------. 7 / \ |=============================| 3 | | 8 | BRIAN COATES | | \\ | | nobrand@teleport.com | 2 \ \\ / 9 |=============================| 1`-------' \|\/|/ RESONANCE.= 10! = /|/\|\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 15:08:41 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: Amalgam of threads from david: >If our music is a bit obscure, out of the mainstream (whatever *that* means) >or seeming grounde so much in theory, then we struggle to find a market, to >find people who might want to listen to it. -*-* so i guess the question is for whom are you (or we) writing/performing? a marginalized, knowledgable group of listeners searching out material is somehow more appealing than a mass of throw-away, popular culture users. although to be sure, i wouldn't mind a bit everyone having the opportunity to hear my stuff. your work seems interesting david, is there any cross-talk happening from other musics with the ghanese? jetman@tunanet.com jeff talman, nyc -*-* ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:18:51 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy In-Reply-To: <950415095303_84038658@aol.com> from "Bradley A. Barkett" at Apr 15, 95 09:53:05 am Bradley A. Barkett writes-- >I have been reading your letters for two days, and already I am sensing a >negative pattern of constant bickering and bashing. Let me say that I love to >synthesize, program, sequence, and record, and I am excited about the >prospect of corresponding with other members of my endangered species, but >not if this list takes on the tone of a teen chat line. > >C'mon guys. Electronic musicians are some of the most brilliant people in the >world. What other profession or pasttime combines and requires such strong >analytical, AND abstract thought capabilities? And, as intelligent people, we >should be able to dissect ourselves, and realize when we are being >unproductive. Well, as Joe said, you sort of caught us at a bad time, but his view is a bit restricted right now because of the personal attack he suffered at the hands of Michael Whitten. (The aforementioned fellow unsubscribed immediately from both lists after firing his Parthian shot, without waiting to read Joe's apology. I can't abide cowards.) That attack was also aimed at Nick and me, of course, but I've had far worse and so, I believe, has Nick; Joe's too nice a guy for his own good sometimes. I'll address this more in another posting. I'd like to address your concerns as to the overall flow of information here and try to bring in some of the other threads that I know you must have been reading lately, and in the process also add in my (probably final) comments on them. I hate to be economical with my postings, but I'm under a bandwidth restriction today and have to do much with little. First, on the matter of our sense of community: >Not to be a downer, but the point I truly wish to illuminate here is that >many fields that are more lucrative and practical than this one have guilds >and unions to support its proponents, but all it seems we have is this >electronic medium of e-mail, and we should use it to help one another, to >help build the influence of our industry. This is what I have assumed this >list was about, and I was quite excited to find it. If it is not, then I >shall unsubscribe immediately. It's easy to see the bile and snappishness here, and perhaps not as easy to see the sense of community that underlies it. These lists are frequently graced by the discussions and arguments, and occasionally even fights, of academic and non-academic musicians from around the world. If one goes from post to post without having time to know the long-term flow of the lists, it's easy to assume that, say, Mark Simon and Scott McCoy would gladly slit each others' throats were they ever to meet. :) But over the years of watching these and other musicians argue, I am continually struck by how rarely they degenerate to meaningless emotional attacks. They present loud, even strident arguments, but those arguments are well though out and come from solid backgrounds not all that different from yours. The casual passerby at the Round Table in the Algonquin Hotel in the 1920s (did you know that it's no longer there? how sad) would assume that a fistfight was imminent, but under all the banter and sniping was a tightly knit community of remarkable wits and intellects. I would say that the same holds for EMUSIC-L and to a lesser extent with SYNTh-L. Real emotional outbursts are relatively rare, and people argue about stuff that's important to them, listening hard to one another as they do so. You speak of "building our industry." This implies a combined real-world agenda for a far-flung group of students, professors, hobbyists, and pros, with equipment, training, and talents all over the scale. When I was your age and at your stage of training, you would have been just about ready for middle school...yet here we are, talking to one another on an even footing. I respect the hard work you put in and the knowledge you have in areas that may be very rusty for me, and I hope you'd do the same for me. We are too thinly spread for a real-world agenda, so our purpose must be to speak to one another, to exchange ideas, to hone each others' skills and to provide help and training to one another. The tone in which this is done is set by tradition, convention, and the changing makeup of the list, and it does get harsh-toned occasionally. Personally, I prefer that to having to stop every fifth post or so and gratuitously slap someone on the back and reassure them that I'm not really mad at them and everything's peachy keen. >My musical tastes and proficiencies are probably not as academic as some of >yours. I would like to say that I am fascinated by synthesis in both popular >and unpopular formats, but esoteric music is usually spawned of priveledge or >martyrdom. In college, I was both, and now that I have realized it, I don't >know where to go with it. There you go. You've just delivered a personal, honest,sharp opinion on one of the recent threads here, that of academic music. Have you been slashed to ribbons? not yet. Have people come whining to you that you hurt their feelings? I hope not. You can, I hope, expect people to ask you the extent of your training, what you learned and how, and where you get your definitions of 'privilege' and 'martyrdom'. And if you answer them without submitting to the urge to scream "FUCK YOU PEOPLE, I'M LEAVING!!", you'l be well on your way here. Eric Harnden, who ran this list before Joe took over, said something really wonderful a while back, that all of us should keep in mind. I quote it in my new .sig file below; I think it's an admirable stance. Why are we here? Essentially, to think out loud at one another and to *listen*. If what's being thought about doesn't suit you, you can move on with no hard feelings, but we cover a lot of ground in a year. My feeling is that the recent argument about giving a piece time to grow on you (watch this, I'm going to wrap up my part of the 'academics' thread right here! :) is that it can be applied to any art form, including the art of discourse. Each of us must choose how much time to devote towward understanding and absorbing something new before rejecting it. Personally, I work hard to absorb stuff I think I must understand, and I'm not always rewarded by it. In music, I have certain 'red flags' that often steer me away from spending time on music I regard as a waste of time. Maybe those steer me wrong occasionally, but my God, I have so much music to learn about and so few years left, to say nothing of the playing *I* have to do....to work hard on a difficult, rewarding task takes discipline, and setting rules, and allocating time, and no one is perfect at it. My 'limit' for EMUSIC-L or any other list or newsgroup is about four to six months; what can you learn in a week? You may choose to reach a conclusion more quickly. That's YOUR style. >I probably shouldn't burden a group of people who don't even know me with my >personal introspections and reflections, because I am new to this community, > but I think I have a lot to offer. Based on the start you've made, I'd tend to agree with you. Welcome, and don't be afraid to roll up your sleeves, spit on your hands, and get to it. mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 11:57:14 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: The other co-moderator speaks Comments: To: EMUSIC-L , SYNTH-L A recent letter from now-ex-listmember M. Whitten upset Joe and annoyed me a great deal; in it, if I may paraphrase, he issued a condemnation of our apparent domination of these groups and our self-promotion of our music and recent album releases here. (Rocky Mullin sent me several email letters over the past couple of weeks, asking me why promoting one's own music on these lists is something we make it a point to downplay; now I think he's gotten a very good example of just the sort of accusation we were hoping to avoid.) Joe's addressing of these comments was reasonable and straightforward, as has been the other commentary I've read so far from David and others. Herewith my additions and personal views: It is possible that we have said too much about our recent spate of album releases, including solo works by Joe and myself. On SYNTH-L, we have tried to say what we wanted to say once and leave it at that, and on EMUSIC-L, we have tried to leaven our self-promotion with useful data that is germane to the list, thereby hopefully justifying its mention at all. As Rocky said to me, what good is a community where one can't talk about what one's done recently? I won't lie about the power of mentioning our work, and making it sound attractive, here and on other lists. I'm thousands of dollars in debt from the making of my releases, and I have a new project coming out in early May that is going to make the albums I have out right now, and Team Metlay's _Ballistic_ coming out in a few days, look like chicken feed. I crave honest criticism, respect insofar as I'm worthy of respect, and the same for the artists who work with and for me (including Joe, and Nick, and several other people who either read or have read these lists). The money doesn't hurt either, to be honest. But if that is in direct contravention of the intent and content of this list for which I am partly responsible, then we are talking about a serious conflict of interest here. Whitten may have been a coward in his delivery, but at least some of the points he made were very good ones. Do we dominate conversations? Do people hate our in-jokes? Are we abusing our positions as moderators, or would we be doing this even if we did not control the lists? I can only answer the last of those queries, and then with an unrepentant "yes." The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, and what we write about our music is known to improve the enjoyment of it by the listener, and perhaps shorten the recently-discussed exposure time it takes to absorb and welcome the music itself. There are other lists where this stuff can be and is mentioned; Analogue Heaven, Electronica, rec.music.makers.synth, and rec.music.promotional, for a start. And we do have a Web page with an online catalog, that will have links to interviews, sound bites, graphics, and technical postings like the ones we put up here. In most cases, the self-promotion involved in mentioning our releases doesn't bother anyone per se. But EMUSIC-L and SYNTH-L are different, because they have a patina of 'respectability' and, more importantly, are moderated by the people promoting themselves. This IS a concern. Joe's thinking hard about it, and so am I. Anyway, here's where things stand as far as I'm concerned. As of now, the cost-benefit relationship of our mentioning our work here is in serious question; I'm therefore recommending to Joe that he stop talking about his album, and I will do the same about ours. Any further materials will go to Electronica, Analogue Heaven, and rec.music.makers.synth, but not here; that includes a very, VERY long and detailed post on _Ballistic_. In addition, in the light of not only this but many other personal and professional pressures, Joe and I are reconsidering whether we should be running these groups. This issue has been floating around between us for months now, and this latest flap is only the icing on the cake. We are not looking for backslapping and reassurances that we are appreciated and that we are doing a great job despite occasional problems. We know we are. The fact remains that it may be becoming untenable for us to continue in this capacity, particularly Joe, who is burning out on the constant maintainance these lists require. An alternate list moderator would be a really handy thing to have right now; volunteers should contact us. You don't need to be at AUVM, either; Joe can explain the details. If people have feelings about these issues, I would appreciate private email (let me say that again so it sinks in: PRIVATE EMAIL) on the subject, one way or the other. I would really, really prefer if people could keep this issue off the lists themselves; I especially don't want to see people lining up to waste list bandwidth with more public slams or (even worse!) public testimonials. Tell us how you feel, OFF the lists. Joe's address is mcmahon@clark.net; mine is atomic@netcom.com. Thanks. Back to the postings. mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 13:19:49 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Butcher Subject: Re: Looking for May 1985 EM Comments: To: Tony Cappellini Comments: cc: synth-l@american.edu, emusic-l@american.edu, analogue@hyperreal.com, cakewalk@lists.colorado.edu, electronica+@andrew.cmu.edu, eps@oak.oakland.edu, PAiA@aol.com In-Reply-To: > Hi guys. Anybody have the May 1985 issue of EM ? > I'm looking to get a tape recording of the Soundsheet Craig Anderton (?) did > with the Vocoder demos. I believe you're looking for an issue of Keyboard and not Electronic Musician. Wasn't EM called Polyphony back then? Tom Butcher [bit@hyperreal.com] Orbitrecords [412.392.1505] || orbitrecords information superlink || http://hyperreal.com/music/labels/orbitrecords/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 17:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Greg Poltrock Subject: Re: Paul Shaeffer's Setup Paul Shaeffer has always used a Kurzweil K250 in his rig. In addition, a Kurzweil K2000 is stacked on top of his piano. A Roland JD800 sits on the Hammond and an Oberheim OB8 has been seen. A closeup revealed an Emu Systems Vintage Keys module next to the Oberheim (the close up was after the dweeb host threw a raw egg into Pauls rig). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 19:14:34 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Chuck Scholtz Subject: Re: What/how do vocoders work In an earlier posting, From tonycapp@EARTHLINK.NET (Tony Cappellini) writes: >>Hi guys. Anybody have the May 1985 issue of EM ? >>I'm looking to get a tape recording of the Soundsheet Craig >>Anderton (?) did with the Vocoder demos I am trying to learn all I can about the technology of Emusic (reason I joined this lest) and I am not at all familiar with the term "vocoder". Is this some type of voice altering processor? Please explain what it is and how it works. How many types are there out there? How new of an innovation is this? Thanks for sharing... Chuck ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 11:19:24 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy HI Brad, welcome to the list. We prefer to think of the >constant bickering and bashing as reasonable debate. If some get a bit het up, then that's only natural, but, as Joe and Mike keep reminding us, we should mostly be civil about it. Please stay around. If you happened upon us during a philosophical storm, please don't take it as indicative of all that happens here. And, quite often, the arguments can be illuminating. If all we did was back-pat, we might never learn anything from one another. >A job as a "poultry technician" is your basic American Dream on the >Delmarva peninsula Gee, you ought to talk to Mike Metlay (one of the listowners ) about life in Tallahassee! Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Apr 1995 21:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pete Griffiths Subject: Need info on Synth purchase Hello all E-Music people, I am new to the list and right off I need help. I am looking for a synth module that I can plug into a PC notebook for easy travel on the road. I sequence using Cakewalk Pro and want to be able to take: 1) notebook 2) synth module 3) amp/mix/spkrs to gigs without too much weight. I looked at a Korg 05R/W today which is the engine of the 01/WproX and 01/W pro. I liked it for the size and sound but don't know if it is the best choice. Does anyone know another synth module that would be the most bang for the buck/weight/sound? Ideally I am looking for something that will plug directly into the comm port or printer port without too much hastle. I would also like something that is wave/patch upgradable as sounds improve/change. Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.. Griff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Apr 1995 09:38:17 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Digested version?! In-Reply-To: <950413141126_82054500@aol.com> from "Blaine Young" at Apr 13, 95 02:11:28 pm > > Is there are digested version of this mailing list that I can subscribe to? > > Could someone please post a message about how to subscribe if there is one? > > Please *do not* email me because 50 people might decide to respond, then I'll > have 49 messages to delete. > So everyone knows how to do this: Send the following as a mail message to LISTSERV@american.edu (*NOT* emusic-l! listserv.) set emusic-l digest That's all. You'll get a digest which is automatically assembled each night at midnight Eastern Standard Time and mailed out... --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 00:09:09 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "E. Purdy" Subject: Loss of volume with mixes When I am mixing tracks using my sequencing software on my PC with my KORG M1, I almost always notice a significant loss of volume of the lead instrument patch when listening to the final mix, when compared to the normal volume when playing that patch solo. This occurs despite increasing the volume settings for the specific patch being used. What is the cause for this and what can be done to improve the problem? Thanks, E. Purdy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 00:09:12 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "E. Purdy" Subject: KORG M1 patches Do any list members have good patches for the KORG M1? If not, what sources do you recommend. I have seen several ads in Keyboard, such as Kid Nepro, West Broadway Productions, ProRec, Voice Crystal, and Sound Source. Do you have experience with any of these places? Thanks for any help you can give, E. Purdy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 00:48:31 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Rules, bending them, and getting bent out of shape Comments: To: emusic-l , synth-l First, I'd like to apologize to the list at large for my negative attitude in my first response to M. Whitten. It was not called for; I should have waited and posted later. > It is possible that we have said too much about our recent spate of > album releases, including solo works by Joe and myself. On SYNTH-L, > we have tried to say what we wanted to say once and leave it at that, > and on EMUSIC-L, we have tried to leaven our self-promotion with useful > data that is germane to the list, thereby hopefully justifying its > mention at all. As Rocky said to me, what good is a community where one > can't talk about what one's done recently? > And I would like to make it possible. The problem particularly with Mike and I is that we *are* in a privileged position. We are supposed to be the ones making the rules and enforcing them, and it looks particularly bad if we even bend them. > Anyway, here's where things stand as far as I'm concerned. As of now, > the cost-benefit relationship of our mentioning our work here is in > serious question; I'm therefore recommending to Joe that he stop > talking about his album, and I will do the same about ours. I agree. I have removed anything other than my snail-mail address and current quote from my signature. I will add a WWW adress when I have a page - you can see that if you are interested in any projects I may have going. > ... in the light of not > only this but many other personal and professional pressures, Joe and > I are reconsidering whether we should be running these groups. At least full-time. I've invested a lot of time in these lists and would dislike completely giving them up, but they are becoming more and more work to maintain. > An alternate list moderator would be > a really handy thing to have right now; volunteers should contact us. > You don't need to be at AUVM, either; Joe can explain the details. Volunteers should be prepared to make a long committment and to stay in close contact with the co-moderators and individual list members. In addition, they should be relatively familiar with how mail processing on various systems works, since they will be looking at bounced mail and deciding what action to take to fix it. I would not recommend this job to anyone who does not have the time or mail space to receive several hundred mail items a day and get through them all. That said, it's not terribly difficult, just time-consuming. Write to me at mcmahon@clark.net if you're interested. I would be just as happy if it was someone who I *didn't* know quite so well, as it would be easier to avoid accusations of cliqueishness. Again, let's not discuss this in detail on the list. Direct mail to me at mcmahon@clark.net only. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 03:29:54 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deved Smith Subject: Re: What/how do vocoders work Doesn't a vocoder work like a ring modulator with the primary wave being a live input (mostly voice from a mic) then modulated by another waveform? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 07:36:43 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Brian Coates Subject: Re: What/how do vocoders work At 3:29 AM 4/16/95 -0400, Deved Smith wrote: >Doesn't a vocoder work like a ring modulator with the primary wave being a >live input (mostly voice from a mic) then modulated by another waveform? A vocoder is like a voltage controlled graphic eq, with the CV's for each band being derived from envelope followers at the outputs of coresponding channels of another eq. Low frequencies in your voice change amplitude in the low frequencies of the instrument (if you are using it for vocal type effects). That's why it's good to use sounds with a lot of harmonics, and why you see distortion and noise at the input stages of a lot of vocoder setups. Brian ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 5 6 4 .-------. 7 / \ |=============================| 3 | | 8 | BRIAN COATES | | \\ | | nobrand@teleport.com | 2 \ \\ / 9 |=============================| 1`-------' \|\/|/ RESONANCE.= 10! = /|/\|\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 20:21:55 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: john rossi Subject: Re: Rules, bending them, and getting bent out of shape In-Reply-To: <199504160448.AAA17753@clark.net> > First, I'd like to apologize to the list at large for my negative > attitude in my first response to M. Whitten. It was not called for; > I should have waited and posted later. That was negative? Boy, I guess I am, indeed, ready for sensitivity training. > And I would like to make it possible. The problem particularly with Mike and > I is that we *are* in a privileged position. We are supposed to be the ones > making the rules and enforcing them, and it looks particularly bad if we > even bend them. Personally, I don't buy the idea that 'even the suggestion of impropriety' be considered in every action. Also, I find it hard to see how either of you or Mike are in any more of a privileged position than anybody else on this list since this thing is not really moderated in a 'time delay review' manner. Anybody can post anything here (at least once) and it will be received by every subscriber to the list. When you spend a lot of time apologizing for your preceived arogance you make this kind of thing look a lot worse than it really is. You also get people like me ignited because it seems like Socialistic pandering. Fuck em if they can't take reality as it is. > > Anyway, here's where things stand as far as I'm concerned. As of now, > > the cost-benefit relationship of our mentioning our work here is in > > serious question; If you haven't noticed, the cost-benefit of anything to do with Atomic City is a very high ratio. Think about it, we ain't the Stones and you and Joe certainly aren't no Jagger and Richard (financially speaking), you know. > > I agree. I have removed anything other than my snail-mail address and > current quote from my signature. I will add a WWW adress when I have a > page - you can see that if you are interested in any projects I may have going. More pandering? > > > An alternate list moderator would be > > a really handy thing to have right now; volunteers should contact us. > > You don't need to be at AUVM, either; Joe can explain the details. > Yea, let me and DACC do it. That should correct the problem and correct it good ;-) > > I would be just as happy if it was someone who I *didn't* know quite so > well, as it would be easier to avoid accusations of cliqueishness. > Again, let's not discuss this in detail on the list. Direct mail to me > at mcmahon@clark.net only. > We really ought to learn to love each other, really people. You know, if I didn't know better, I would have thought you guys set this up. I mean, what better way to get publicity than to have one guy criticize you for using the list as a sales vehicle and then using the opportunity to lament (pander?) then discuss fixes for the crime. John 3 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 17:29:45 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy In-Reply-To: <01HPEKWVK57I9GW6MV@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU> from "David Rodger" at Apr 16, 95 11:19:24 am David Rodger writes-- > >>A job as a "poultry technician" is your basic American Dream on the >>Delmarva peninsula > >Gee, you ought to talk to Mike Metlay (one of the listowners >) about life in Tallahassee! Oh, DAAAAAY-viiiiid....[sound of shotgun being pumped] You said the "T" word. mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Apr 1995 22:36:03 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jim Hurley Subject: Re: john rossi's article Perhaps you have something John. Another Team Metlay agent speaks out specifically when private email was encouraged and the posting was approved. Maybe there is some shenanigans goin' on. ;-) for those who can't tell. -- Jim Hurley email: hurleyj@arachnaut.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:18:59 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: composers/audiences >The problem (a nice one to have, but a problem nonetheless) is music is >temporal, happening in time. We must remember that it is the only art form >of its kind, Apart from dance... Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com "Gonna go down town, kill some spammers." - Joe McMahon. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 09:21:37 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "John P. Leonard" Subject: Re: Paul Shaeffer's Setup Comments: To: Deved Smith In-Reply-To: <950415044600_83960879@aol.com> On Sat, 15 Apr 1995, Deved Smith wrote: > There's a K2000 right on top just to his left of the B-3 but that's all I can > see. And on top of that....there's a bottle of Rolling Rock. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 09:52:21 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: The flaming of Joe and Mike In-Reply-To: <199504151857.LAA07462@netcom17.netcom.com> Here's what I think about these dirty low-down self-congratulating self-serving self-appointed "gods of emusic": Joe, Mike, I would like to buy your new albums. Write me privately, tell me where to send the check, tell me how much. I'm serious. Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:53:09 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: aliasing/vocoding/ob keys/laurie Comments: To: eml@physics.american.edu having pretty much used up my month's mental allotment on poststructural esthetics, i figured i'd get back to the nitty. (gritty). 1) remember that aliasing (foldover) can be viewed as beating of the frequencies above the nyquist frequency (1/2 sampling rate) with the nyquist frequency. a fairly harmonic sound will alias harmonically, not doing much but reinforcing its own partials, but a nicely inharmonic sound will wind up with new tones showing up between its own original partials, ornamenting its spectrum. now, when you drop a sample really, really low, the pitch control algorithm generally results in sample points being repeated, so that smoothly sampled waveforms get 'stairstepped'. stairs are square edges on the waveform, which produce odd-harmonic distortion products which, if they are multiples of originally *inharmonic* content, really wind up filling up the upper portion of the resultant spectrum... you get all kinds of 'am radio' birdwhistles and grinds. this is what joe is experiencing on his machine. unfortunately, many sample players have really well-designed output lowpass filters that *track* the playback sampling rate, so that lower rates, which should produce all this neat grunge, just get darker. feh. 2) expanding on the prior answer about vocoding: a vocoder is a device for analyzing the formant characteristics of one sound and applying them to the spectrum of another. a formant is a frequency band in a sound, a region which, if it is, say, more prominent than others around it, makes the sound always 'nasal', for instance, regardless of the actual fundamental pitch. it is formants that give acoustic instruments their consistent character. the sound boxes or resonating tubes impart a pretty fixed filtering characteristic on the sounds passed through them. an electronic vocoder passes a source signal through a bank of fixed bandpass filters, and converts the signal energy at each output into a voltage control (via envelope followers, as mentioned before. these are basically fancy rectifiers... they convert average signal amplitude into proportional dc voltage). the target signal is passed through a second bank of matched filters, whose outputs are patched through vcas controlled by those envelope followers. the more energy there is in a certain frequency band (formant) in the source signal, the more that band in the target signal is allowed through. schematic of a single channel: source------->filter------>envelope follower | \|/ target------>filter------------>vca------------->out multiplied by the number of channels in the vocoder. third-octave is nice. this is not like a ring modulator, although the sound can be similar under certain circumstances. ring modulation is am with the carrier cancelled out. conventionally, your source (music, voice, etc.) is the program, and the carrier is a sine wave. since the rule for am is that each component in the program produces one sum and one difference tone in the carrier, your source shows up as the sidebands in the am spectrum, their components linearly shifted by the frequency of the carrier, usually producing very inharmonic results. hence the technique's usefulness in 'klang' stuff. schematic: carrier---->phase splitter---->negative--------------\ | mix--->out |------------>positive----->vca-----/ /|\ | source----------------------------------------| the sidebands are produce in the vca, and the mix cancels out the common carrier signal. by the way, all this stuff can be found in: allen strange, "electronic music: systems, techniques, and controls", isbn 0-697-03602-2, which, while an entirely analog-oriented book, remains the best text in the field. if your are a serious em'er, get this book *now*. 3) somebody asked something about the matrix 6 a short while ago. while i can't remember the exact questions, here are two things which might tweak someone: A) the software version number shows up when one of the paremeters high up in the master page is selected. somewhere around 50 or so. B) the oberheim is capable of a 'rotating' voice selection scheme. if one of the curtis chips is getting a little wonky, this will show up as one voice out of six sounding strange as you gliss the keyboard. i think the chips are probably available from wine country, or someone like them. 4) i started to read a sunday washington post article about laurie anderson, and ceased after the first two paragraphs. for some reason, the interviewer found it significant that she is 47 years old, and used this as a launching point to suggest that she and her art are in some way 'tired'. whether or not the critique itself - that is, the question of whether the music is innovative or interesting - was in any way valid, i found the metaphoric conceit irritating in the extreme. the youth cult bugs me. i don't feel like ranting today, so i'll just leave it at that. glad you made it to the concert, joe. i preferred your review. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:54:41 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: new moderators? Comments: To: eml@physics.american.edu oh god... not rossi... NOT ROSSI!! yeeeaaaGGGHHH!!! (whimper...) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:18:36 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: those wacky ackydemicks In-Reply-To: <950414143001_83277759@aol.com> from "RonG225zt@AOL.COM" at Apr 14, 95 02:30:02 pm RonG225zt@AOL.COM writes-- > >>This is so sad...but not surprising, which may be saddest of >all, actually. > I am now beginning to look once more at Robert >Weinstock's controversial >actions at Oberlin and the stink >they raised, and wonder if he might not >have had the right >modus for the wrong motivations. > >I missed this. Could you please explain? Weinstock was (is) a physicist at Oberlin, who sat in on a TIMARA (Technology In Music And Related Arts, i.e. emusic) concert on a whim. He was a relatively erudite and experienced listener to the usual Western classical music, and was unprepared for what normally gets played at these concerts. At the end of a premiered performance of a new Conrad Cummings piece, he stood up amidst the applause and began to boo loudly, shocking the audience. In an article in the Oberlin Alumni News the following quarter, he defended his actions quite simply: the music was ugly, he said, and he hated it, so he booed it. He didn't think it was worthy of the hype or attention it got, and by God, ugly is ugly. This touched off a flurry of angry letters on both sides of the issue, a flamewar which lasted for months (snailmail tends to slow the process down), and still flares up on occasion. I raised this incident in this context because while Weinstock was undeniably rude in his public vociferation of the music, he quite accidentally (?) hit on one of the few valid ways to get the attention of the academic community in emusic. You almost DO have to boo and hiss their efforts to make them listen. George Bernard Shaw once said of Shakespeare's following that the only way you could get them to listen to criticism of his work, ANY criticism, was to dig up his corpse and throw rocks at it. The counterargument might be made that Weinstock had no idea what to expect, and his reaction could be expected from an emusic ignoramus, and he needed time to absorb the whole genre and what the composer was trying to get at...to which he replied (at the time, when this issue was raised by a TIMARA faculty member who was a friend of the composer's) that he was an old man and didn't have time to devote to learning to maybe like something he started out thinking was ugly. Which set off the "Then why did you come at all?", etc. etc. It was an ugly business, and hurt a lot of people's feelings...it was a real slap in the face for TIMARA, and something I think Gary Nelson would rather forget. He doesn't read these lists any more, I don't think, which is a pity, as I'd have liked to get his reminiscences on this and how he thinks it reflects on his current program, which I should note is much more oriented toward practical production of conventional music styles these days. mike PS. I angered Weinstock, who was a teacher of mine, when on a recent visit back to the campus he asked me what I was doing besides physics, and I said I made and sold my own music. He asked what sort, and I replied, "Ugly." -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:41:40 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: new moderators? In-Reply-To: <0098F03A.1B0FA800.15135@physics.american.edu> from "Eric Harnden" at Apr 17, 95 10:54:41 am Eric Harnden writes-- > >oh god... not rossi... NOT ROSSI!! >yeeeaaaGGGHHH!!! (whimper...) Actually the suggestion was not Rossi, but Rossi and Crowell, a combination that would do interesting things to these lists. I'm not sure exactly what, but they'd be interesting, you betchoo. mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:44:35 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: kanter@TMN.COM Subject: NYFA Home Page Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu The New York Foundation for the Arts (NYFA) is pleased to announce a new resource for artists and others on the Web. NYFA is one of the largest funders of artists in all disciplines in the country and provides a host of other funding, management and information services for artists and their organizations in New York State and across the nation. Arts Wire, the national on-line network for the arts, is just one of the Foundation's many programs. Now, the Foundation has launched its own home page that allows viewing and downloading of information on its services. Learn about the fellowships and residencies available for artists, discover how your project could be sponsored by the Foundation and what fiscal, management and information services are available. Over the next few months, an increasing number of our guidelines, application forms and events will be displayed. Currently the guidelines for our National Dance Residency Program (awarding $1 million a year to choreographers working closely with dance companies) are available. Guidelines and application form for our innovative new grant, The Catalogue Project, can now be downloaded and used to apply for the $5,000 grants to enable women photographers over the age of 40 to create catalogues for their exhibition. Also, soon to be linked to our page, will be weekly updated news about First Look, a program designed with Eastman Kodak and Tribeca Film Center to showcase fresh talent and bring together the New York film industry on a regular basis. So check out the resources increasingly available on the NYFA home page at (http://www.tmn.com/Artswire/www/nyfa.html). For direct information email David Green, the Foundation's Director of Communications at green@tmn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 13:45:53 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: john rossi Subject: Re: john rossi's article In-Reply-To: <199504170536.AA00353@foxtrot.rahul.net> > Another Team Metlay agent speaks out specifically when private email > was encouraged and the posting was approved. > ------------------------ My point was that since the listserv is automatic, there is no approval process. Even though I saw your ;-), there are (based on the fact that a lot pf people haven't figured out how to unsubscribe) a lot of people here who don't know how a listserv functions. John 3 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 10:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: Rules, bending them, and getting bent out of shape In-Reply-To: from "john rossi" at Apr 16, 95 08:21:55 pm He violates his own rules in replying to a member of his own band on the very list he moderates (while his co-moderator takes it to private email)! Shame! Public humiliation! Watch out, folks, he's snapped.... john rossi writes-- > >> First, I'd like to apologize to the list at large for my negative >> attitude in my first response to M. Whitten. It was not called for; >> I should have waited and posted later. > >That was negative? Boy, I guess I am, indeed, ready for sensitivity >training. Give the guy a break, John. He hasn't been armorplated like the rest of us yet; it's why he can do music like [album name bleeped out]. >Personally, I don't buy the idea that 'even the suggestion of impropriety' >be considered in every action. Also, I find it hard to see how either of >you or Mike are in any more of a privileged position than anybody else on >this list since this thing is not really moderated in a 'time delay >review' manner. Anybody can post anything here (at least once) and it >will be received by every subscriber to the list. When you spend a lot >of time apologizing for your preceived arogance you make this kind of >thing look a lot worse than it really is. You also get people like me >ignited because it seems like Socialistic pandering. Fuck em if they >can't take reality as it is. I hate to say this, but I've gotten a pile of mail on this subject in the past couple of days, and almost every message is running in favor of the attitude so, ah, succinctly put forward by Il Signor Rossi above; essentially, "You're making it worse, dipshits; let it drop already and it'll be forgotten about in no time, and anyway who GIVES a shit if you talk about your records once in a blue moon? ONE guy, and he LEFT!" Whether this leads to a policy change....well, keep reading the list. :) >If you haven't noticed, the cost-benefit of anything to do with Atomic >City is a very high ratio. Think about it, we ain't the Stones and you >and Joe certainly aren't no Jagger and Richard (financially speaking), >you know. Yeah, but we're a damn sight better looking at this point! >> > An alternate list moderator would be >> > a really handy thing to have right now; volunteers should contact us. >> > You don't need to be at AUVM, either; Joe can explain the details. > >Yea, let me and DACC do it. That should correct the problem and correct >it good ;-) This is obviously a definition of the verb 'correct' that I was previously unaware of...much like a sound that causes ordinary lab rats to have seizures capable of throwing their bodies seven FEET into the air is referred to as a 'Rat Enhancer'. >You know, if I didn't know better, I would have thought you guys set this >up. I mean, what better way to get publicity than to have one guy >criticize you for using the list as a sales vehicle and then using the >opportunity to lament (pander?) then discuss fixes for the crime. Nice thought, but it's far too clever for the likes of us. If we could PLAN these things, we'd be as rich as the Green Card lawyers by now. I'm shutting up at this point. This whole thing has gotten way out of hand, regardless of who's right or wrong or abusing or not abusing. [subliminal message to buy our records bleeped out], mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:19:29 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: youth cult Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Hi Eric... > having pretty much used up my month's mental allotment on poststructural > esthetics... And what a great time I had readign it ! (Make that reading!) > the youth cult bugs me. It should, especially since the major concerns of people producing entertain- ment for the youth and former youth is recycling one of the most tasteless periods in recent pop history. (Don't flame me: not EVERYTHING then was tasteless.) As Eddy Venner (spelling?) sang recently "The kids of today should protect themselves against the seventies..." Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:20:09 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: composers/audiences >The problem (a nice one to have, but a problem nonetheless) is music is >temporal, happening in time. We must remember that it is the only art form >of its kind, -*-*- Apart from dance... -*-*- apart from film, theatre, multimedia, opera, . . . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 17:22:18 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Zimbak Camire Subject: Techno, Dance, ANYBODY... Can anybody help me find some Techno and/or Dance music MIDI files in GM format? Thanks. Kambiz (Zimbak C.) Amirtash ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 21:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Conlen Subject: Re: The flaming of Joe and Mike In-Reply-To: Hmmm... ...We as a group who write eletronic music, or work with electronic music wither produce music, or offer services. Why not start a list assoicated with EMusic and Synth for advertisments, ie. I've just finished producing my new album, Bla Bla Bla on a Bla Day. It's, Bla Bla Bla, and Bla Bla Bla. Available for $25, make check payable to Bla and send to Bla Bla Bla st, Bla's ville Fla. and on the lists we can talk about what went in to this work. I have seen one person talking about his efforts to convert music form one format to another, adn what not. could this not be construde as an advertisment for his services? I dont think anyone got up and went all pissy on us. Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen@intnet.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:03:17 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Brian Good Subject: Writing for EWI >Has anyone on this list written for the EWI? If so, I'd like to >get some information (perhaps a score as well as a tape) that > will give me some more compositional insight. Assuming you're comfortable writing for woodwinds, think of the EWI as one with a six-octave range. You'll get maximum expressiveness using the dedicated analog synth, but more timbral variation using other MIDI boxes. Even more than the Yamaha wind controllers, the EWIs need dedicated wind-controller patches; most EWIs emit only a fixed velocity value, so using them to drive keyboard-oriented, envelope-controlled patches will sound genuinely awful. (Though a few EWIs have been upgraded by Nyle Steiner, and do emit a velocity that appears to be identical to the first breath-controller value sent). Another feature you may or may not find useful is the EWI's ability to play chords of up to four notes via MIDI. You can define one chord per chromatic pitch, which is pretty limiting if you want to do anything sophisticated. (But see below). >My first exposure to the EWI was Michael Brecker's first solo album, >on a track entitled Original Rays. Beautiful, I've loved this sound for >a long time, but haven't had the opportunity to write for one with >hands on experience. If you listen to the introductory EWI solo in _Rays_ closely, you become aware that something nontrivial is going on. You can hear bass lines moving in ways that don't track the melody in any obvious manner, so it's clear that Brecker is doing more than just playing four-note chords. For a long time I assumed he was using a pre- release version of MAX.* Then I found out about the Rotate function on the Xpander he was using back them. *When archeologists find an artifact the function of which they have no clue about, they often nod sagely and claim it to be a religious object. MAX is to MIDIphiles what religion is to archaeologists, that is, the explanation of final resort. Brian Good ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 23:43:50 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: Re: new young industrial craz... that's really funny, david. mike just sent me an extensive letter, and i was quite flattered. i think i will jump off my own thread here and reply to something else of interest. though. Brad Barkett. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Apr 1995 22:46:00 PDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tony Cappellini Subject: What's wrong with this picture ? Comments: To: synth-l@american.edu, emusic-l@american.edu >We really ought to learn to love each other, really people. >You know, if I didn't know better, I would have thought you guys set this >up. I mean, what better way to get publicity than to have one guy >criticize you for using the list as a sales vehicle and then using the >opportunity to lament (pander?) then discuss fixes for the crime. >John 3 What is your problem ? I'm a subscriber and I benefit from some of the messges posted here. If I can't get my synth to respond to aftertouch or have some other problem with my gear and one of you fellow dinosaur synth owners knows the answer to my problem, and posts it, then great. Many can benefit from the knowledge. If I'm lucky enough to be able to make some decent music with my gear and would like to share it with other people then what's wrong with posting a message about it ? I ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 11:23:43 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: Wavestation [A/D] owners . . . Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Another Bill said: > Anyway, I'd like to get a few addresses of some wavestation owners so > we could all trade patches/info/problems/etc. Also, what would be the > best way for us to trade patches? I don't have an editor/librarian > right now and I would suppose there are many others out there who > don't either. Suggestions? Yes. You might want to join the wavestation list. Send this message: subscribe wavestation to this address: listserver@otax.tky.hut.fi and I'll bet you'll find out all kinds of interesting things. I just bought an SR and hope to start scratching the surface any day now. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 09:31:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: San Diego Event: CRCA Presents Intl New Music Festival ---------------------------- Forwarded with Changes --------------------------- From: ucsd-flyers-relay@ucsd.edu at @UCSD Date: 4/18/95 9:06AM *To: ucsd-flyers-dist@ucsd.edu at @UCSD Subject: CRCA Presents Intl New Music Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CENTER FOR RESEARCH IN COMPUTING AND THE ARTS PRESENTS INTERNATIONAL NEW MUSIC FESTIVAL 8:00 pm, Thursday, April 20, 1995 at CRCA, UCSD 408 University Center tel: 534-4383 (at the end of the parking lot between the Registrar and Cashier) Free Admission Fall Carlos Cerana (Argentina) computer-generated tape Atlantis James Whitsitt (USA) computer-generated tape Apocalypse was postponed Pampin (Argentina) computer-generated tape Piece of Mind Celso Aguiar (Brazil) computer-generated tape Gracias Joanne D. Carey (USA) radio baton Clouds' Lament Joanne D. Carey (USA) radio baton Semantic Etudes Igor Korneitchouk (USA) saxophone Esquisse Ronald Smith (USA) flute Time is Over Servio Marin (Venezuela) piano Attirance Frank Pecquet (France) violins Preludios Americanos Abel Carlevaro (Uraguay) guitar Xagna Hiroyuki Itoh (Japan) violin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 13:40:13 EST Reply-To: STERN@MAIL.LOC.GOV Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: RE: AMALGAM OF THREADS From: JOEL STERN Subject: Re: AMALGAM OF THREADS Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu David Rodger brings up a subject that I've pondered on and off. I know it wasn't the major thrust of his post, but it is e-music relevant: the subject of cultural appropriation or cultural imperialism. I don't happen to think that what David's Ghanian music group is doing is CI, since they appear to be making the effort to learn the tradition and practice it in an un-sullied form. On the other hand, what about what some of us do when we sample and grab bits of "ethnic" music from here and there? Are we ripping off third world cultures just the way the World Bank and friends rip off third world economies? At the moment I tend to think not - a creative effort which transforms pre-existing material to make something new is a legitimate endeavor. But that's what -I- think. What do those Ethiopian, Turkish, Brazillian, etc. artists who have been the object of my "raw material" collecting think? What do y'all think? Joel Stern stern@email.loc.gov j.stern11@geis.genie.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 14:39:22 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" Subject: on the EWI Comments: To: emusic-list Thanks to Brian Good for the info! I'm intrigued by the type of chords that might be available (in addition to the intricate counterpoint by Brecker) on this instrument. I've written a few ensemble pieces for reeds, and I'm very curious to see how "rotation" works. I played with one cat who had something like this on a Trumpet, very nice sounds. What interests me most are the kinds of lines Brian mentioned. On the Brecker album, everyone seems to have such beautiful conceptions of line, especially Charlie Haden. Yes, the chords are nice blocks, but it is those subtle shifts within the blocks that strike me most. If anyone can point me in the direction of obtaining logistical information on this instrument (how does one rotate, etc., on a trumpet it's not such a problem, but I can't envision how a saxophonist, who presumably would need both hands at least some of the time, could do it). Enlighten me, please! I assure everyone that logistical information will not fall into the wrong hands, and I solemnly swear never to write a leap of a minor ninth ever again. Penitently, Scott McCoy mcco5@minerva.cis.yale.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 15:01:58 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Cultural Appropriation Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Hi Joel, > sample and grab bits of "ethnic" music from here and there? Are > we ripping off third world cultures just the way the World Bank > and friends rip off third world economies? At the moment I tend > to think not - a creative effort which transforms pre-existing > material to make something new is a legitimate endeavor. But > that's what -I- think. What do those Ethiopian, Turkish, > Brazillian, etc. artists who have been the object of my "raw > material" collecting think? What do y'all think? I don't have a concrete opinion on this topic, yet. (And I can be a very malleable guy.) But couldn't one consider your use of these materials as a valuable means of exposure (if not promotion)? After all, if somebody hears your work, likes it, and bothers to read the liner notes where you state the source of your samples and/or influences, they just may seek out that which you reference. Isn't that mentioned in copyright law as fair use? That's quite different from out and out piracy such as the US is accusing China of doing. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 12:59:12 EST Reply-To: STERN@MAIL.LOC.GOV Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: RE: POISONED ACADEMICIANS From: JOEL STERN Subject: Re: POISONED ACADEMICIANS Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu mike writes: >Oh, I dunno. I kinda like music that chases after you and drags >of your hole kicking and screaming and MAKES you listen to it... Well, I admit that as I do my daily rounds, kicking-and-screaming music is what is usually coursing through my brain. But when I sit down to write do you think I'm going to compose that kind of crap? (:)) Joel Stern stern@email.loc.gov j.stern11@geis.genie.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 10:55:44 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jody Whitesides Subject: How should I setup? Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU If I'm running LM with a JV-35 keyboard and a Roland R8M, how should I set up the environment? Should I use a multi-instrument for the keyboard? If I do this can an arpeggiator or delay function work properly on individual tracks? Or does it affect the whole keyboard? I'm just now attempting to setup the system for getting involved with the keyboard and it's sounds. I've briefly learned how to put the arpeggiator and delay lines in, last night. So I'm not real clear on how to manipulate sounds just yet. With a mapped instrument can you create separate tracks that have their own color and names? Or do you need to create multiple mapped instruments? I ask because I've got my drums mapped but with many mapped instruments (all the same, just different colors). I did this for the color and track names. Could I do it differently? I ask because I've been using logic as a glorified drum sequencer, but would like to get into more. I'd also like to learn to remove excess waste in my environments. As a side question: I don't seem to have the 'All layers' in my environment list, where could it have gone, and how can I add another? Is there someone willing to take these questions directly or is there tech support directly online? Thanks. Tschuss! "It's what's played between the notes, (now) that is golden!" --Jody Whitesides amalgam@primenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 22:57:56 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: Ensoniq ASR10/EPS 16+ I have, for some reason, developed a liking for this self-contained, multi-functional line of Ensoniq keyboards. These are not top of the line or state of the art keyboards, but they are very useful, and they are some of the only synths I had access to as an E-Music major at Salisbury State University. I would like to purchase a used EPS 16+ , if anybody's got one. Also, I need a job. Anyone got any openings for and eager 22 year old assistant engineer? Brad Barkett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Apr 1995 23:27:15 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: john rossi Subject: Re: What's wrong with this picture ? In-Reply-To: On Mon, 17 Apr 1995, Tony Cappellini wrote: > > What is your problem ? > It has been diagnosed, at least once, as borderline schizophrenia... Seem to function alright after tripling my meds intake. > > If I'm lucky enough to be able to make some decent music with my gear and > would like to share it with other people then what's wrong with posting a > message about it ? > Nothing, as far as I can tell, which is why I am wondering why you believe I have a problem. Although I am a member of Team Metlay, I don't speak for Mike or Joe or the charter of this list. My viewpoint is more Libertarian oriented than is theirs. If it was up to me you could sell Uzis on this list as long as you include the mandatory musical usefulness of them (outside of making maximum impact in a shooting spree in Korg's front office). John 3 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 05:17:41 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: James Vernon Subject: Re: composers/audiences >Apart from dance.. You still need music, man. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:47:08 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: composers/audiences >The problem (a nice one to have, but a problem nonetheless) is music is >temporal, happening in time. We must remember that it is the only art form >of its kind, -*-*- Apart from dance... -*-*- apart from film, theatre, multimedia, opera, . . . -*-*- all of which contain music. -*-*- no, there's lots of theatre without muusic. for that matter a book is temporal in a manner, as to a lesser degree is a painting. i'm not saying that music isn't unique, only that temporality is an issue that many different kinds of artists have to work with. jetman@tunanet.com jeff talman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 08:16:04 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: Re: those wacky ackydemicks I think a man of that age was quite sure what he was getting into. I think that was a bold and hilarious thing to do, and if the musician is good natured enough, he she should think about approaching the disagreeable audience members and genuinely questioning them as to why they find the music unappealing. And that person had better be able to explain their reaction, to some extent (even though reactions often precede reasons,) or they would be considered a thoughtless, immature rube. Or in this case, a regressive rube. I would guess that this guy is pretty old, and, like Truman Capote, he is beginning not to give a damn what the world thinks of his actions and behaviours. I am completely removed from this incident, but, if you think about it, an immediately inexplicable positive response, clapping, deserves its negative counterpart, for balance. .) Brad Barkett,AOL.(amateur online) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "John P. Leonard" Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Comments: To: "william.b.fox" In-Reply-To: <9504181901.AA01577@acropolis> On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, william.b.fox wrote: > Hi Joel, > > > sample and grab bits of "ethnic" music from here and there? Are > > we ripping off third world cultures just the way the World Bank > > and friends rip off third world economies? At the moment I tend > > to think not - a creative effort which transforms pre-existing > > material to make something new is a legitimate endeavor. But > > that's what -I- think. What do those Ethiopian, Turkish, > > Brazillian, etc. artists who have been the object of my "raw > > material" collecting think? What do y'all think? > > I don't have a concrete opinion on this topic, yet. (And I can be a > very malleable guy.) But couldn't one consider your use of these > materials as a valuable means of exposure (if not promotion)? After > all, if somebody hears your work, likes it, and bothers to read the > liner notes where you state the source of your samples and/or > influences, they just may seek out that which you reference. Isn't that > mentioned in copyright law as fair use? That's quite different from out > and out piracy such as the US is accusing China of doing. > > Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com > This is the situation Paul Simon was in. He was attacked quite viciously for exploiting African music. I think he was sincerely trying to bring new and different music (and musicians) to this country via his collaborative albums. I thought it was a WIN-WIN-WIN situation for everyone. John ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 10:52:10 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Eugene Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:18:32 -0400 from On Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:18:32 -0400 John P. Leonard said: >On Tue, 18 Apr 1995, william.b.fox wrote: > >> Hi Joel, >> >> > sample and grab bits of "ethnic" music from here and there? Are >> > we ripping off third world cultures just the way the World Bank >> > and friends rip off third world economies? At the moment I tend >> > to think not - a creative effort which transforms pre-existing >> > material to make something new is a legitimate endeavor. But >> > that's what -I- think. What do those Ethiopian, Turkish, >> > Brazillian, etc. artists who have been the object of my "raw >> > material" collecting think? What do y'all think? >> >> I don't have a concrete opinion on this topic, yet. (And I can be a >> very malleable guy.) But couldn't one consider your use of these >> materials as a valuable means of exposure (if not promotion)? After >> all, if somebody hears your work, likes it, and bothers to read the >> liner notes where you state the source of your samples and/or >> influences, they just may seek out that which you reference. Isn't that >> mentioned in copyright law as fair use? That's quite different from out >> and out piracy such as the US is accusing China of doing. >> >> Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com >> > > This is the situation Paul Simon was in. He was attacked quite >viciously for exploiting African music. I think he was sincerely trying >to bring new and different music (and musicians) to this country via his >collaborative albums. I thought it was a WIN-WIN-WIN situation for everyone. > Well, yes and no. The general public benefitted from exposure to a musical form to which most were woefully ignorant, however briefly. While Ladysmith Black benefitted from the worldwide attention _Graceland_ received, I humbly submit that Paul Simon reaped by far the greatest *financial* reward from the project. All things being equal, then, his efforts amounted to electronic strip mining. >John Eugene ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 14:32:14 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: > > > > > sample and grab bits of "ethnic" music from here and there? Are > > > we ripping off third world cultures just the way the World Bank > > > and friends rip off third world economies? At the moment I tend > > > to think not - a creative effort which transforms pre-existing > > > material to make something new is a legitimate endeavor. But > > > that's what -I- think. What do those Ethiopian, Turkish, > > > Brazillian, etc. artists who have been the object of my "raw > > > material" collecting think? What do y'all think? I just wrote a piece called "Caucasian Journey" which is partially modelled on the style of a very obscure Azerbaijani composer named Fikret Amirov who in turn based his compositions on a highly westernized interpretation of traditional Azerbaijani mugams. I haven't yet figured out whether I'm a right-on multicultural kind of guy or a slimy cultural imperialist; I suspect I'm both and neither, depending on who you ask. This is a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't sort of thing. I haven't lost a lot of sleep worrying about which of the two I am. My feeling is that nobody can own a style. This is true for ethnic groups as well as for individuals. Specific compositions are another story. If I decide to write a samba, it's nobody else's business. If I decide to use "The Girl From Ipanema" somewhere in there, then I'm guilty of plagiarism, unless I get permission from the estate of the guy that originally wrote the tune. And sampling from various "ethnic" artists should have the same legal ramifications as sampling from anyone else. Getting back to Azerbaijan, was Amirov an imperialist turncoat for westernizing the music of his native people? Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 04:24:57 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: rg8@UMAILSRV0.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: Concert review: Music for performers and computer >Please define ISPW. I'm new to this. > ISPW = IRCAM Signal Processing Workstation This is a real-time signal processing computer (NeXT platform) with a very high-end external digital to analog converter (Ariel), which in this concert was running an object-oriented program for DSP called Max (by Miller Puckette). There is also a version of Max for MIDI (Puckette and David Zicarelli) which runs on the Macintosh. IRCAM = Institut de Recherche et Coordination Acoustique/Musique in Paris, founded by Pierre Boulez. Hope this helps. Bob Gibson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 12:08:29 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jody Whitesides Subject: Appology Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU I must appologize for a post I made here recently. It got misdirected to this list. Tschuss! "It's what's played between the notes, (now) that is golden!" --Jody Whitesides amalgam@primenet.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:15:00 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: Disklavier Discovery & URL (fwd) Comments: To: algo-comp@heinous.isca.uiowa.edu ---------------------------------- Forwarded ---------------------------------- From: peterson@strauss.udel.edu at @UCSD Date: 4/19/95 1:36PM *To: mus-disc@strauss.udel.edu at @UCSD Subject: Disklavier Discovery & URL (fwd) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- forwarded for your info. Larry Peterson University of Delaware 302 831-8134 peterson@strauss.udel.edu An archive of compositions for computer-controlled piano is being assembled at the Center for Research in Computing and the Arts, University of California, San Diego. Pieces can be up- or down-loaded from the anonymous ftp site: wendy.ucsd.edu in the pub/midi/disklavier directory. A front end on the world wide web is at the URL: http://crca-www.ucsd.edu/bobw/disklavier.html Compositions are stored as MIDI files. Works that cannot be represented fully this way can be excerpted, or information given on whom to contact for needed software, scores, or performers. A series of concerts "New Music for Disklavier and Synthesizer" is being made from the collection, along with Disklavier disks. There is still space on the concerts scheduled for April and May, at UC San Diego and CCRMA/Stanford University. Please contact me if you have a piece for the collection, or would like more information. ----------------------------------------------------- +Robert Willey email: bobw@carla.ucsd.edu tel: (619) 534-4383 http://crca-www.ucsd.edu/bobw/bob-homepage.html ----------------------------------------------------- >-- Saved internet headers (useful for debugging) >Received: from strauss.udel.edu by mail.ucsd.edu; id LAA29392 sendmail 8.6.11/U >Received: (from peterson@localhost) by strauss.udel.edu (8.6.10/8.6.6) id NAA06 >Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:36:41 -0400 (EDT) >From: Larry W Peterson >To: MusDisc News >Subject: Disklavier Discovery & URL (fwd) >Message-ID: >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:46:38 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Rocky Mullin Subject: Re: composers/audiences dance does not *necessarily* require music, especially modern... From: James Vernon Subject: Re: composers/audiences To: Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L >Apart from dance.. You still need music, man. /\ c /\ a /\ l /\ i /\ b /\ a /\ n /\ rocky mullin /__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\ organic online \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / san francisco \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ http://wbl.com/~caliban splitting lanes on the information superhighway ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:48:05 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: those wacky ackydemicks In-Reply-To: <950419081601_88364441@aol.com> from "Bradley A. Barkett" at Apr 19, 95 08:16:04 am Bradley A. Barkett writes-- > >I think a man of that age was quite sure what he was getting into. I think >that was a bold and hilarious thing to do, and if the musician is good >natured enough, he she should think about approaching the disagreeable >audience members and genuinely questioning them as to why they find the music >unappealing. And that person had better be able to explain their reaction, to >some extent (even though reactions often precede reasons,) or they would be >considered a thoughtless, immature rube. Or in this case, a regressive rube. Interestingly, I heard soon after I posted this from someone who graduated from Oberlin after me that Conrad Cummings, the composer of the piece that got booed, did in fact look Weinstock up, they got to talking, and now apparently get together to chat once a week, even though Weinstock is now quite elderly and slowing down a lot. > I would guess that this guy is pretty old, and, like Truman Capote, he is >beginning not to give a damn what the world thinks of his actions and >behaviours. Between us, he didn't give a damn when he was young, either. ;) -- saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 16:01:47 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HAECKERH@OSPREY.NWRC.GOV Subject: Cultural Appropriation Eugene advances this opinion: >Well, yes and no. The general public benefitted from exposure to a musical form >to which most were woefully ignorant, however briefly. While Ladysmith Black >benefitted from the worldwide attention _Graceland_ received, I humbly submit >that Paul Simon reaped by far the greatest *financial* reward from the project. >All things being equal, then, his efforts amounted to electronic strip mining. >Eugene I agree that Paul Simon reaped the greatest *financial* reward from the _Graceland_ project...but I think that's as it should be, since he thought of it in the first place, wrote the vast majority of the songs on the album, and directed the whole tour. At that time Apartheid was still being enforced in South Africa and he was QUITE vocal in his opinions against it. "Electronic strip-mining?" I think not. I think he deserves any money he earns from being the genius poet/performer he is. I supported him by buying the cassette and seeing him in concert. Hopefully, other S. African bands benefited from Mr. Simon's "cultural appropriation": because of _Graceland_, I found I liked S. African street music and bought a couple of compilation albums by these bands (of course, I can't be sure how much of the $15/CD actually went to the people on the album!) "Cultural appropriation" has been going on ever since humans had legs to walk to different places! It's called "being influenced by other people," or "not living in a vacuum!" Being influenced by other cultures is only negative when the artist in question actively dislikes the people in the culture and is just a hypocrite. BTW, I think that this is a relavent topic for the E-music list since we're all influenced by the long reach that the Internet, etc., gives us. Brian Eno was featured in an interview for _Wired_ magazine. If you can take a look at it, do so...I'm not one of those who blindly kiss his ---, butt he does have some good things to say, IMHO. One of these things is "A nerd is someone who doesn't have enough African in him/her". I don't think that the really valuable thing in a culture is its indigenous instruments, the temperaments employed, or the songs themselves. The truly valuable "things" are the heuristics employed by that culture. For example, the African way of looking at things in a non-linear (non-Western) way is a very valuable tool for Eno. I wouldn't accuse him of ripping off Africa, however: he is simply able to appreciate and get inside their mind-set, using it to make his own music. Also, I have the utmost respect for the chap in Australia in the Ghana band...more power to you!! later, Harry Haecker (haeckerh@nwrc.gov) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:35:31 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: The flaming of Joe and Mike In-Reply-To: from "Michael Conlen" at Apr 17, 95 09:37:32 pm Michael Conlen writes-- > >Hmmm... ...We as a group who write eletronic music, or work with >electronic music wither produce music, or offer services. Why not start a >list assoicated with EMusic and Synth for advertisments, ie. > >I've just finished producing my new album, Bla Bla Bla on a Bla Day. >It's, Bla Bla Bla, and Bla Bla Bla. Available for $25, make check payable >to Bla and send to Bla Bla Bla st, Bla's ville Fla. > >and on the lists we can talk about what went in to this work. I don't think AUVM will allow a list of this type. There may be support for such an idea elsewhere on the Net; I know there's a newsgroup for it, rec.music.promotional. Exiled in Bla'sville, Fla., mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 13:40:17 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: atomic city Subject: Re: POISONED ACADEMICIANS Comments: To: STERN@MAIL.LOC.GOV Comments: cc: EMUSIC-L In-Reply-To: from "JOEL STERN" at Apr 18, 95 12:59:12 pm JOEL STERN writes-- > > mike writes: > >Oh, I dunno. I kinda like music that chases after you and drags > >of your hole kicking and screaming and MAKES you listen to it... > > Well, I admit that as I do my daily rounds, kicking-and-screaming > music is what is usually coursing through my brain. But when I > sit down to write do you think I'm going to compose that kind of > crap? (:)) I guess it depnds on your mood. I do, sometimes, when I can get away with it without getting brained with a cast iron wok by the Mrs. ;) mike -- "in any case, i am no-one's intellectual lackey. i don't wear a t-shirt saying "will think for food." go find your own damned sandbox. i did, three times. and i abandoned two of them. that's the way it goes." (ronin) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- mike metlay * atomic city * p. o. box 81175 * pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 usa atomic@netcom.com * atomic-city@netcom.com * http://pd.net/atomic-city ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 16:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Siberian Khatru Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Mark G Simon wrote: > of traditional Azerbaijani mugams. I haven't yet figured out whether I'm > a right-on multicultural kind of guy or a slimy cultural imperialist; I > suspect I'm both and neither, depending on who you ask. This is a > damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't sort of thing. I haven't lost a lot > of sleep worrying about which of the two I am. > > My feeling is that nobody can own a style. This is true for ethnic groups > as well as for individuals. Specific compositions are another story. If I > > Getting back to Azerbaijan, was Amirov an imperialist turncoat for > westernizing the music of his native people? > > Mark Simon > mgs2@cornell.edu > I wonder what people would think of someone like Olivier Messaien. Not only did he base most of his rhythmic ideals on Indian talas, but he also "stole" the melodies of our winged friends--birds. Quite often, the man is nothing short of worshipped for his rhythmic ideas. I just can't see it as bastardizing the Indian talas, because he makes no attempts to sound "eastern," just free. I do find it interesting that noone complains about samples of nature as imperialism. Maybe artists should pay Mother Nature royalties on sound-bites of thunder, rain, running water (as in brooks, creeks, etc.), wind? Cheers, Jon Southwood jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu ****************************************************************************** "Aria--Italian for 'song which will not end in your lifetime'"--Dave Barry ****************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:33:10 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Conlen Subject: Re: The flaming of Joe and Mike In-Reply-To: <199504192035.NAA23896@netcom23.netcom.com> > I don't think AUVM will allow a list of this type. There may be support > for such an idea elsewhere on the Net; I know there's a newsgroup for it, > rec.music.promotional. > > Exiled in Bla'sville, Fla., > mike I could understand that. If people are intrested in it though, let me know, I will see what I can come up with at Hyperreal, knowing one of thier programmers. Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen@intnet.net ======================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 18:14:18 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Rocky Mullin Subject: Re: The flaming of Joe and Mike from previous episodes: From: Michael Conlen Subject: Re: The flaming of Joe and Mike To: Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L > I don't think AUVM will allow a list of this type. There may be support > for such an idea elsewhere on the Net; I know there's a newsgroup for it, > rec.music.promotional. > > Exiled in Bla'sville, Fla., > mike I could understand that. If people are intrested in it though, let me know, I will see what I can come up with at Hyperreal, knowing one of thier programmers. Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen@intnet.net i am sitting in the same room as hyperreal, in more ways than just one. what do you need to know? /\ c /\ a /\ l /\ i /\ b /\ a /\ n /\ rocky mullin /__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\____/__\ organic online \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ / san francisco \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ http://wbl.com/~caliban splitting lanes on the information superhighway ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 21:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Brian Good Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 18 Apr 1995 to 19 Apr 1995 Scott McCoy writes: >What interests me most are the kinds of lines Brian mentioned. On the >Brecker album, everyone seems to have such beautiful conceptions of line, >especially Charlie Haden. Yes, the chords are nice blocks, but it is >those subtle shifts within the blocks that strike me most. >If anyone can point me in the direction of obtaining logistical >information on this instrument (how does one rotate, etc., on a trumpet >it's not such a problem, but I can't envision how a saxophonist, who >presumably would need both hands at least some of the time, could do it). >Enlighten me, please! Sorry, Scott. I didn't really explain this. To hear what I meant, listen to the part of the EWI intro in _Rays_ where Mike is repeating a single note, inflecting it differently each time. Even though the melody note stays the same, the bass note is moving around quite a bit. The bass notes are clearly being played by the EWI, not another musician. So how does he do it? The Xpander can apparently be set up so that incoming MIDI chords will have their notes be parceled out to different voices cyclically--for example, the first chord will have its lowest note played by voice 1, the next chord will have its second-lowest note played by voice 1, etc. (I'm told the Rotate function is actually quite a bit more flexible than this--perhaps Dr. Mike would elaborate?) Anyway, it's something that makes the EWI's limited, one-chord-per-pitch feature musically more interesting. So, in a nutshell, the whole thing is automated, and the player doesn't need to do two things at once. (And, in fact, EWI players *can't* do two things at once. If you move your right hand off the EWI, it eventually figures out that you've let go of the grounding plate, and plays an extremely low and unpleasant note, no matter what you're fingering.) Brian Good ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:41:00 PDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tony Cappellini Subject: Encore Electronics NEW Address/Phone Comments: To: analogue@hyperreal.com Comments: cc: electronica+@andrew.cmu.edu, synth-l@american.edu, emusic-l@american.edu For all who are interested, Encore has moved again. Their new location is 611 Laird Lane Lafayette, CA. 94549 510-229-8875 For those who DON'T know, Encore makes OB-8 & Jupiter 6 Midi kits, among other things. I believe they are also working on a NEW Midi/CV converter. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:01:40 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu John Leonard wrote... > This is the situation Paul Simon was in. He was attacked quite >viciously for exploiting African music. I think he was sincerely trying >to bring new and different music (and musicians) to this country via his >collaborative albums. I thought it was a WIN-WIN-WIN situation for everyone. Simon has said that he had heard some older recordings of South African music. This is what he loved and he sought the help of Ray Phiri, Baghiti Khumaso, Ladysimth Black Mambazo and others to help him get something like it. It didn't seem to matter (or perhaps he didn't know) that that was not stylistically current, and the guys he worked with maybe didn't tell him! Of course, the actual sound that made it onto the record wasn't particularly like that he'd been listening too, at least not after the studio magicians got to it. "Graceland" would have to be one of the most over-produced records I've ever heard! (IMO) Regards David Rodger | Fax: +61-3-479-3651 Music Department | E-mail: musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au School of Art and Media | La Trobe University | "It was a failed boot... Bundoora VIC 3083 | commonly known as getting your feet wet!" AUSTRALIA | -- Chris Lai ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:58:09 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Cultural appropriation Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu >From Harry Haecker ... > I agree that Paul Simon reaped the greatest *financial* reward from the >_Graceland_ project...but I think that's as it should be, since he thought of >it in the first place, wrote the vast majority of the songs on the album, and >directed the whole tour. At that time Apartheid was still being enforced in >South Africa and he was QUITE vocal in his opinions against it. "Electronic >strip-mining?" I think not. Agreed. See my previous mail about the actual influence (i.e. pop music style 'old hat' in South Africa during the 1980s). About fees from compilations: no doubt this compilation was easily done because the licensing fees would be next to zilch. This is partly the reason why ther band with which I recently worked (the electric highlife project) is having difficulty getting distribution. The distributor or publisher need not pay as much in royalties as would be the case for a first-time release (and often less for a single song cf. an entire album). > "Cultural appropriation" has been going on ever since humans had legs to >walk to different places! It's called "being influenced by other people," or >"not living in a vacuum!" Being influenced by other cultures is only negative >when the artist in question actively dislikes the people in the culture and is >just a hypocrite. Not sure about this. I think that the term 'cultural appropriation' is somewhat politically and ideologically charged such that it does not mean the same as 'being influenced by other people' to those who use it. The term seems to have come about as part of a general (though often unconscious) attempt to make amends for the colonial past. Like most of these efforts, it has become a catchphrase which can mean whatever you want, and ends up serving no one, because it explains little about those who 'appropriate' or those whose cultures are 'appropriated'. Please don't take this to mean that I approve of the holus-bolus ripping off of other cultures. An example that springs to mind is Deep Forest. I read an interview with those guys and they said that they sampled directly from some old field recordings. They DIDN'T go to Zaire, they DIDN'T seek to learn about the music (even if they couldn't go there), and they DIDN'T pay royalties to anyone, let alone the Baka (or was it the Ituri?) whose music they ripped off. Why should they make an attempt? Well, at least if they know a bit about how the music functions, they might be better able to make music which can be said to be influenced by it. These chaps certainly did not; I think the results speak for themselves. (This perhaps prompts another question: why does eveything these days have to be totally subordinate to the ALMIGHTY BEAT?) Furthermore, their sampling of vocal phrases probably makes no sense to the Baka, and they might even have rearranged the words so that the resulting phrases are insulting to anyone from that culture. I'm not saying that this has happened, but that it could. I believe that we should at least have enough respect to wish to avoid that sort of thing. > Brian Eno... "A nerd is someone who doesn't have enough African > in him/her". I really take exception to this, despite having a little African ancestry! This statement implies that anyone who doesn't "have" African in him/her is a nerd, even if that person has never encountered ANYTHING African (as might be the case for a hill tribe member in the Thai highlands). Now to say something like that doesn't prove anything or contribute to the debate (or even to any argument Eno was putting forth), and so is stupid. OTOH, perhaps you should have quoted at length, Harry, if Eno wasn't suggesting what that single statement implies. (I'd be surprised if he was.) > I don't think that the really valuable thing in a culture is its >indigenous instruments, the temperaments employed, or the songs themselves. They are, but only in so much as those songs, styles, temperaments, etc. employed and developed by musicians in that culture are not found in quite the same form outside it, and so contribute to the distinguishing features of the culture. >The truly valuable "things" are the heuristics employed by that culture. >For example, the African way of looking at things in a non-linear >(non-Western) way is a very valuable tool for Eno. I wouldn't accuse him >of ripping off Africa, however: he is simply able to appreciate and get >inside their mind-set, using it to make his own music. I think you'll find that a non-linear approach is not particularly African. Rather, it is that Western thought is so thoroughly mediated by literacy. I won't go into this here, but I recommend that you read... Elizabeth Eisenstein (1979) "The printing press as an agent of change: communications and cultural transformations in early modern Europe" (2 vols.), Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Lengthy but excellent and very persuasive. > Also, I have the utmost respect for the chap in Australia in the Ghana >band...more power to you!! Thank you, Harry, though perhaps you'd better reserve judgment until you hear us play! Regards, David Rodger | Fax: +61-3-479-3651 Music Department | E-mail: musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au School of Art and Media | La Trobe University | "It was a failed boot... Bundoora VIC 3083 | commonly known as getting your feet yet!" AUSTRALIA | -- Chris Lai ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:04:55 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Royalties to nature Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Jon Southwood wrote... > I do find it interesting that no one complains about samples of nature > as imperialism. Maybe artists should pay Mother Nature royalties on > sound-bites of thunder, rain, running water (as in brooks, creeks, etc.), Are we being just a little facetious? Birds and animals wouldn't have any use for our royalties. I might suggest that just treating the environment properly would be a mark of respect (says he, consuming electricity from a coal-fired power station). As for brooks, creeks, wind in trees and whatever else: these things make their noise without agency. Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au (Couldn't be bothered typing out my .sig now!) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 01:10:06 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Musicians producing in genres derived from other cultures can have a variety of motives for doing so, but as long as they never commit what we would consider "cultural fraud" and claim authenticity, then we should not really hold anything against them, since every sybolic creature that comes in contact with every other symbolic creature is influenced, in some way. Often times people who are closer to the mindset and/or in the profession of a borrower like to assert that they can clearly see the transparently criminal motives in such things, but these people are frustrated, overintellectualizing purists martyrs who wouldn't create at all if it meant respect for their authenticity. Being a jazz saxophonist of sixteen years, I could complain about the new crossover acid jazz genre, but instead, I realize that, as The Who said, "Music must change," and what better way to bring the fabulous Blue Note Recordings to the masses than through a combo form that utilizes their accepted medium? Plus, it can make you tons of cash, which is a suitable form of revenge in spite of all of those dirt martyrs and blue collar Christ figures who believe art not to be a career. Brad Barkett, AOL (Amateurs Online) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 01:19:37 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: Re: Roland, Korg or Yamaha? I am familiar with the SY77, but not the SY99. The 77 is very new age, with crappy compressed rock drum presets, and a whole bunch of ethereal multi presets that get annoying. The sequencer is real time, click track continuous. This keyboard is fun to play with, but it has no sampling capabilities, and the synthesizer is not particularly user friendly, so it kind of makes me want to barf. I am looking, by the way, to buy an Ensoniq ASR10 or EPS16+. They're kinda cheezy, but they're self-contained, and I dig that. Brad Barkett, AOL (Amateurs Online) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 01:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Elliott Delman Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Doesn't it depend on how the source material was gathered? Are we secretly sticking mics into exotic conclaves of musicians, running back home and loading them into our samplers? Are we hiring musicians and fully disclosing our intentions to sample and reuse their sounds? Are we buying retail CD-ROMs saturated with "world perc?" Where is the line of transgression? I truly don't understand the Paul Simon flap. Someone please tell me what he was accused of. I'll venture a pre-opinion that the hubbub is B.S. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 01:35:34 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Elliott Delman Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Was not Mr. Simon entitled to the lion's share of the profits? Can you honestly say that Ladysmith was grossly underpaid or otherwise undercompensated? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:50:33 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Krister Malm Subject: Recommended listenings Comments: To: emusic-l@AMERICAN.EDU To all of you people out there who wants to have a few listening tips... Beloved "Conscience" Elektric Music "Esperanto" Exit 100 "Circuits" Human League "Travelogue" Human League "Hysteria" Human League "Octopus" (Brilliant comeback!) Information Society "Information Society" Jones, Howard "Human's Lib" Leftfield "Leftism" Numan, Gary "Best of..." Page "Page" S.P.O.C.K "Five Year Mission" S.P.O.C.K "Alien Worlds" Check out their home-page: http://www.edu.isy.liu.se/~d90mathe/spock/ Anyone know what die gute Kraftwerkers are doing nowadays? Cheers, Krister Malm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:49:14 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: <950420013533_89525508@aol.com> from "Elliott Delman" at Apr 20, 95 01:35:34 am > > Was not Mr. Simon entitled to the lion's share of the profits? Can you > honestly say that Ladysmith was grossly underpaid or otherwise > undercompensated? > I think this phase of the discussion is beginning to veer toward stuff that's likely to become a "yes he did"/"no he didn't" discussion. If the question is, "did good music come out of the collaboration?" I think the answer is yes. If the question is "did all of the musicians receive equal compensation for their work" the answer is probably not - but then again, if someone appears on an album by Barbra Streisand, do they get paid as much as she does? No. If the question is "did Paul Simon deliberately just use these folks for their ideas and music without giving them adequate credit", then then answer is you'd have to ask him. If the question is "did the other contributors get recognized for their excellent contributions", then the answer is certainly. If the question is "how come Paul Simon is famous and making a lot of money and the other performers aren't", I don't have an answer. Other than that, we're going to be arguing about the motivations of someone that most of us if not all of us don't really know, and no one who doesn't know the artist in question can say. However, the discussion of how others contribute to one's music is a very valid one, especially in the context of sampling, and how one should properly credit and/or compensate such contributors is an important consideration for the ethical musician. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:59:31 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: new young industrial crazy guy Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu In response to Brad Barkett's original post, let me just show you some old email I happened to save. It's from SYNTH-L but since most of us are or were there at one time or another, I think it applies. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com --------------------------------- 8 man yen!? totemo takai desu! (80,000 yen? it's outrageous.) Yoshiaki Ohshima (aki): | Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 10:06:00 +0100 | From: att!AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-synth-l | Subject: congratulations! | | Hello everybody. | | Well, I am in the internet email since a few days and in this emusic and | synth list. Let me say, that before this experience, I thougt that almost | nobody in this world is able to help anyone without getting profit. | Listening the dayly world news, it seems that one day we will eat each | other between the countries. | In this list I am surprised that everybody try to help to everybody | or to have a conversation without asking who is in the other side of the | line or what colour is his skin,or asking what profit are you going to get. | Well, my opinion of the world is getting better after my experience in | internet, and in this list in particular. | Congratulations to all of you! | | Jose | | Hola Jose, | | > In this list I am surprised that everybody try to help to everybody | > or to have a conversation without asking who is in the other side of the | > line or what colour is his skin,or asking what profit are you going to get. | > Well, my opinion of the world is getting better after my experience in | > internet, and in this list in particular. | > Congratulations to all of you! | | Que passa? On behalf of the membership of emusic-l and synth-l, thank | you for your kind words. But it really isn't hard to be this way | because we all share a passion for electronic music and the tools to make | it. Besides, it is much more fun and profitable to share ideas. I am | developing many friendships via the Internet and hope to some day meet a | few of the other members if I ever find myself travelling abroad. I | have already met a few of my fellow Americans, but expanding this to | include others is something I'd enjoy doing. | | Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | READ THIS BEFORE OPENING PACKAGE: According to certain | suggested versions of a Grand Unified Theory, the primary particles | constituting this product may decay to nothingness within the next four | hundred million years. | | Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:26:43 -0500 | From: att!AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-synth-l | Subject: Re: congratulations! | | > In this list I am surprised that everybody try to help to everybody | > or to have a conversation without asking who is in the other side of the | > line or what colour is his skin,or asking what profit are you going to get. | > Jose | | Jose: What you have pointed out is so obvious that I would be willing to bet | that many if not most of us have never realized it! I think you are right, and | it was nice to read. In spite of an occasional flame war, I do strongly agree | with you. | | Thanks | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | + Ed Forner Macalester College Music Department + | + in%"forner@macalstr.edu" voice (612) 696-6189 + | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | | Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 18:04:07 CET | From: att!AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU!owner-synth-l | Subject: Re: congratulations! | | On Thu, 20 Oct 1994 15:13:03 EDT william.b.fox said: | >Que passa? On behalf of the membership of emusic-l and synth-l, thank | >you for your kind words. But it really isn't hard to be this way | >because we all share a passion for electronic music and the tools to make | >it. Besides, it is much more fun and profitable to share ideas. I am | >developing many friendships via the Internet and hope to some day meet a | >few of the other members if I ever find meself travelling abroad. I | >have already met a few of my fellow Americans, but expanding this to | >include others is something I'd enjoy doing. | > | >Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com | | Hello :) | | Bill, I agree. I use internet to meet people not only in electronic music | area. I'm sure that if I'll ever go to US again I will visit Mike Metlay, | Joe McMahon , Nick Rothwell ,Rod Lemcke, Phil Skiba, Doug Ramsay, maybe You :) | and many others :) I don't know if they will like it or not :) | I assume that if anybody from E-music will ever come nearby Poland , they | might visit me too. Hey guys, You all are invited. I have plenty of space | in my home, and I can be a guide around here. I have nothing against widening | horizons and I like to meet people. I guess I'll know the possible stranger | before he knocks my door but it really doesn't matter. | | Music is just one of things that brings us together. But not least. | I too love music and CAN't LIVE WITHOUT IT. If I couldn't compose I would | live my life like an potato - vegetating. | | Jacek L. | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jacek Latanowicz tel/fax (+48-61) 798-202 | Ul.Porzeczkowa 27 jack@vm.amu.edu.pl jlat@uci1.ae.poz.edu.pl | 61-306 Poznan jlat@plearn.edu.pl (Jack1 on IRC) | POLAND "'I wish I had a dream...'" | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:20:30 CDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Eugene Subject: Re: UNSUBSCRIBE In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:59:18 -0400 from On Wed, 19 Apr 1995 19:59:18 -0400 Karen Glass said: >Please unsubscribe me. > >thank you, > >Karen Glass >KittyCoral@aol.com Phillip's bored sister, no doubt. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:40:37 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation Who's Paul Simon??? RPC >| ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 12:11:25 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HAECKERH@OSPREY.NWRC.GOV Subject: Re[2]: Cultural Appropriation >Who's Paul Simon??? >RPC Just some Senator... and a presidential candidate from the 1992 American Presidential race. Don't let the horn-rimmed glasses, short hair, business suit, and polka-dotted bow-tie fool you: he's also a Synth-Guru, _par excellance_! HFPH ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:13:25 -0300 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Friesen Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: <199504200500.BAA53636@atlanta.american.edu> I've been following the "Cultural Appropriation" discussion with considerable interest. I'd like to offer this view on the matter of cultural mis-appropriation. I spent a year living in Japan, and found myself intrigued AND appalled by the manner in which certain western cultural phenomena were 'misused'. Before I am accused of Cultural Imperialism (evil white male that I am), I'd like to point out that I'm equally annoyed by the way that Japanese cultural phenomena are abused in the west. Just as stereotyped images muddy the cultural waters flowing in both directions, so too do ignorant and fragmentary implementations of foreign cultures. The worst crime lies in using a serious cultural item as a 'circus act' -- denying the sincerity of the people. Of course, this same thing happens with other cultures as well: consider the manner in which aboriginal cultures are twisted for the entertainment of a dominant non-aboriginal audience. Two years after I returned from Japan, I had the misfortune to teach a social studies unit on that very country. In my opinion, the textbook was condescending and shallow, treating all of its subject cultures as circus acts for an astonished (supposedly respectful) North American audience. A lady from India expressed a similar frustration, saying that she'd almost prefer that NOTHING be said about her homeland -- so patronizing was the tone of the textbook. If my understanding of Deep Forest's actions is correct, they committed cultural MISappropriation. If my understanding of Peter Gabriel's "Biko" is correct, he is NOT guilty. Come to think of it, I've taught "San Jacinto" in a 25% Cree classroom. Those kids didn't seem to object. Neither did the student from Zimbabwe who immediately recognized the voices on "Biko". He couldn't make out what they were saying, unfortunately. I liked "Graceland"; wasn't impressed by "Rhythm o/t Saints" -- but I don't think Paul Simon did a bad thing. Jon Anderson's "Deseo" is right on the border -- I haven't quite decided. Cheers, Michael "I've got a piece of brain lodged in my head!" Friesen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:29:49 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: EmersnScot@AOL.COM Subject: XocaToma'95 - Music Festival lookin' for bands! Comments: To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU XocaToma'95 - The Music Festival Noon - Midnight, July 22, 1995 Greencastle, PA An Emerson Scott Production co-sponsored by WQCM 96.7FM, Hagerstown, MD This is an all-day, outdoor event that will feature seven bands and a variety of vendors/craftspeople. Last year's festival had nine bands and about 500 people in attendance. We expect a much larger crowd this year. As of 4/20/95 two bands are committed: Unity - nine piece reggae band from Balt/D.C. area Ryan - alternative band from Hagerstown, MD We are looking for a few more bands that can play on 7/22/95 in south central PA. Permanant covered stage and a great field for the dancing crowd. If you are interested in playing at this year's event, please send your demo and press kit to: XocaToma95 - The Music Festival 122 Madison Avenue, Suite B Waynesboro, PA 17268 (717) 762-4058 (717) 762-0913 fax EMERSNSCOT@aol.com Vendors: contact above for more information. Ticket Sales: also contact above for mail order. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 14:23:21 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark G Simon Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation In-Reply-To: <950420114037.1fedf@FLO.ORG> On Thu, 20 Apr 1995 NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG wrote: > Who's Paul Simon??? > RPC > Unfortunately, he's not one of my relatives. (Neither are Neil or Carly) Mark Simon mgs2@cornell.edu (Nor is Marky Mark) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:08:28 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG Subject: Re: Re[2]: Cultural Appropriation Didn't he have a bad carbuncle? BYE RPC ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:53:15 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HAECKERH@OSPREY.NWRC.GOV Subject: Cultural appropriation, Eno clarification (sort of long) David responds: >> "Cultural appropriation" has been going on ever since humans had legs to >>walk to different places! It's called "being influenced by other people," or >>"not living in a vacuum!" Being influenced by other cultures is only negative >>when the artist in question actively dislikes the people in the culture and is >>just a hypocrite. >Not sure about this. I think that the term 'cultural appropriation' is >somewhat politically and ideologically charged such that it does not mean >the same as 'being influenced by other people' to those who use it. The >term seems to have come about as part of a general (though often unconscious) >attempt to make amends for the colonial past. Like most of these efforts, >it has become a catchphrase which can mean whatever you want, and ends >up serving no one, because it explains little about those who >'appropriate' or those whose cultures are 'appropriated'. Extremely true...there *is* an inherent tendency of our species to generalise about things. What I'm saying is that since I'm "non-PC kinda guy", I don't feel any personal remorse over what I have not personally done to others. I think that the term "cultural appropriation" is just another example of the Extreme Left trying to make me feel guilty...it isn't going to work! :-)) I maintain that artists' ideas don't spring from a vacuum, but from social interaction, and this have been going on since Ogg, the Troglodyte cave painter, visited some distant cousins' caves and liked their ceremonies and methods of painting enough to utilise them in his own cave! Anyway, I don't see how one could enforce social walls for very long, or that it would be particularly beneficial to a culture to be totally insular. I think incorporating other cultures' modes and motifs serves to bring about a deeper understanding and appreciation between cultures. In the reverse situation, however, I do see a problem with an outside culture trying to foist their own morals onto a less powerful one...like the Christian missionaries did so well in the New and Old Worlds, or when the English tried to stamp out Scottish bagpipes. I would have loved to hear the original Aztec music that the person last month was wanting to emulate. Again, however, domination of one culture by another has also been going on for a long time. Like it or not, human culture is plastic, bending to the forces of the empowered. >...holus-bolus ripping off of other cultures. ^^^^^^^^^^^ I love the foreign term...may I use it? :^) Re: Deep Forest If what you said is true (and I do believe you), that's disgusting! That certainly is their loss...at least Paul Simon went to S. Africa! I think the CD is OK...nothing to write home about, certainly, but I can't get riled up about it, either. Like so many other things in our culture, it'll be forgotten a lot sooner than the songs that inspired it (unless the Pygmy culture is nixed in the next year or so.) >(This perhaps prompts another question: why does everything these days >have to be totally subordinate to the ALMIGHTY BEAT?) Please forgive my ignorance, but could you elucidate? >Furthermore, their sampling of vocal phrases probably makes no sense to >the Baka, and they might even have rearranged the words so that the >resulting phrases are insulting to anyone from that culture. Not sure about this...I doubt the Baka would give a rat's left gonad about messed up syntax. They probably are more interested in day to day survival in the deep forest...at most they would find it unintelligable. Who knows? >> Brian Eno... "A nerd is someone who doesn't have enough African >>in him/her". >I really take exception to this, despite having a little African >ancestry! This statement implies that anyone who doesn't "have" African >in him/her is a nerd, even if that person has never encountered ANYTHING >African (as might be the case for a hill tribe member in the Thai >highlands). Now to say something like that doesn't prove anything or >contribute to the debate (or even to any argument Eno was putting forth), >and so is stupid. OTOH, perhaps you should have quoted at length, Harry, >if Eno wasn't suggesting what that single statement implies. (I'd be >surprised if he was.) Yes, you are correct, I should have quoted within context, my only excuse being that it was past quitting time at "work", I was in a hurry to leave, and I didn't have the article at hand and didn't want to paraphrase. Here is a bit longer excerpt (at the risk of getting into trouble): ENO: "Africa is everything that something like classical music isn't. Classical- perhaps I should say "orchestral" - music is so digital, so cut up, rhythmically, pitch-wise and in terms of the roles of the musicians. It's all in little boxes. The reason you get child prodigies in chess, arithmetic, and classical composition is that they are all worlds of discontinuous, parceled-up possibilities. And the fact that orchestras play the same thing over and over bothers me. Classical music is music without Africa. It represents old-fashioned hierarchical structures, ranking, all the levels of control. Orchestral music represents everything I don't want from the Renaissance: extremely slow feedback loops. [stuff omitted] But what *is* tremendously exciting to me is the collision of vernacular Western music with African music. So much that I love about music comes from that collision. African music underlies practically everything I do- even ambient, since it arose directly our of wanting to see what happened if you "unlocked" the sounds in a piece of music, gave them their freedom, and didn't tie them all to the same clock. That kind of free float- these peculiar mixtures of independence and interdependence, and the oscillation between them- is a characteristic of West African drumming patterns. I want to go into the future to see this sensibility I find in African culture, to see it freed from the catastrophic situation that Africa's in at the moment. I don't know how they're going to get freed from that, but I desperately want to see this next stage when African culture begins once again to strongly impact ours." Kevin Kelly: "Do you have any guesses about what that reunited culture would look like?" Eno: "Yes. Do you know what I hate about computers? The problem with computers is that there is not enough Africa in them. This is why I can't use them for very long. Do you know what a nerd is? A nerd is a human being without enough Africa in him or her. I know this sounds sort of inversely racist to say, but I think the African connection is *so* important. You know why music was the center of our lives for such a long time? Because it was a way of allowing Africa in. In 50 years, it might not be Africa; it might be Brazil. But I want *so desperately* for that sensibility to flood into these other areas, like computers." >From "Eno Philosophy" an interview with Brian Eno, by Kevin Kelly, _Wired_, May 1995, p 146~209 I didn't mean to imply that Eno thought that one's genetic make-up was what determined his definition of a "nerd"...in keeping with Eno's brain, it's much more convoluted than that!! But you see why I brought it into the discussion: One can be profoundly influenced by a culture and shouldn't be accused of "cultural appropriation." >> I don't think that the really valuable thing in a culture is its >>indigenous instruments, the temperaments employed, or the songs >>themselves. >They are, but only in so much as those songs, styles, temperaments, etc. >employed and developed by musicians in that culture are not found in quite >the same form outside it, and so contribute to the distinguishing features >of the culture. Yes, for example (at the risk of being flamed), the didgeridu + rhythm stick is the distinguishing sound of some N. Australian tribes...but I bet if you gave them oil drums instead, they'd come up with their own unique instruments (different than the steel drum), and play them in such a way that would mark the music as being "Australian-Aboriginal" in some underlying way. The sound would be a reflection of that tribe's underlying philosophy of life. Of course, that's just my absurd example and opinion on how I feel the mind set of a culture affectings its music. >I think you'll find that a non-linear approach is not particularly >African. True...Eno was making a generalization...hell, Africa is a rather large continent with hundreds of tribes, dozens of countries, and a multitude of disparate cultures. >...I recommend that you read... >Elizabeth Eisenstein (1979) Thanks for the reference...I just Telnetted to the Louisiana State Univ. library, and they have it, and four other books by the same author. I'll check it out the next time I'm in Baton Rouge. >...perhaps you'd better reserve judgement [on the quality of our band] until >you hear us play! Perhaps, but again, I respect all sincere musical efforts towards some specified end. I may not particularly care for Ghanaian music, for all I know...even when played by a full-blooded Ghanaian in Ghana! (Although, knowing my eclectic tastes, there's a really good chance I would like it a lot, and glean something from it for use in my own music!) Regards, Harry Haecker (haeckerh@nwrc.gov) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Apr 1995 20:14:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Siberian Khatru Subject: Re: Royalties to nature In-Reply-To: <01HPKBUA7VSY9GWJI2@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU> On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, David Rodger wrote: > Are we being just a little facetious? Birds and animals wouldn't have > any use for our royalties. I might suggest that just treating the > environment properly would be a mark of respect (says he, consuming > electricity from a coal-fired power station). As for brooks, creeks, > wind in trees and whatever else: these things make their noise without > agency. David, I was kidding of course, but ponder this....What if artists paid a small royalty to Greenpeace when they used a sample of whale sounds, or to some environmental-concern agency when using sounds of the environment? (Said, of course, with toungue firmly planted in cheek.) Of course, this type of royalty deal would ensure that the sounds would be around long enough for future generations to sample for themselves (instead of sampling a sample of a sample of a sample of the real thing....) :) And what about Mike's sampling of nuclear generator's? (now, THAT's facetious!) :) Cheers, Jon Southwood jsouthwo@keller.clarke.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:38:30 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Culture as seen by Eno (was Cult.App.) Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Hi Harry and all contributors to and followers of this thread: An aside first off: I notice that a few people have been unsubbing lately. Do you think we frustrated them? To counter that: thanks Joe for pointing out that this is an ethical issue, which, while implicit in people's discussions, was not specifically stated and may not be obvious to all. On Paul Simon: Joe, you're right again. It would be shocking to have this degenerate into that sort of bickering. Let's remember that Paul Simon's music was offered as an example, as was my citing Deep Forest. I certainly didn't wish to criticise Paul Simon; my point was that his music was based on South African music from the past (largely). But of course, THOSE influences endure today. This ain't like the Khmer Rouge trying to wipe out everything before Year Zero. Harry said: > there *is* an inherent tendency of our species to generalise about > things. And sometimes generalisations can be useful to illustrate general points of view. But they can also be so overt, that they don't say much at all. Just take care, folks, with the generalisations, but take your fingers off the flamethrowers. This list has a well-informed, intelligent membership, so that most of the time we don't have to resort to extreme flaming, which, I think Harry, is what Jose's congratulations (which you kindly reprised) were saying. > I think incorporating other cultures' modes and motifs serves to bring > about a deeper understanding and appreciation between cultures. > > In the reverse situation, however, I do see a problem with an outside > culture trying to foist their own morals onto a less powerful one I hope this doesn't mean that we can't criticise other cultures at all. Since much (all?) criticism proceeds from an ideological position (but not necessarily a fixed one), we can't avoid making value judgements to some degree. But obviously, some people recognise (and will admit) this more readily than others. Yes, Harry , you may use the term holus-bolus. I don't claim ownership and I don't even know the derivation. (It might be spelled 'wholus' if it comes from 'whole', as in wholesale.) > >(This perhaps prompts another question: why does everything these days > >have to be totally subordinate to the ALMIGHTY BEAT?) > >Please forgive my ignorance, but could you elucidate? I am simply referring to the habit in recent years of setting (warning: imminent generalisation!) EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING to a funky, James Brown- type of drumbeat. Now for the really interesting part (and, since it comes from Eno, today's ObEmCon!)... > "Africa is everything that something like classical music isn't. > Classical- perhaps I should say "orchestral" - music is so digital, so cut > up, rhythmically, pitch-wise and in terms of the roles of the musicians. > It's all in little boxes. More than a whiff of Cartesian dualism and reductionism, methinks. (Any phenomenologists out there!?) > "...The reason you get child prodigies in chess, arithmetic, and classical > composition is that they are all worlds of discontinuous, parceled-up > possibilities. You get them anywhere (my band's Ashanti music mentor was definitely a child prodigy), but maybe the difference is that, with the more sophisticated communications technologies of the Western world, we get to hear about them more easily. That, no doubt, will change, as such technologies proliferate around the world. > "...And the fact that orchestras play the same thing over and over > bothers me. Well, we aren't all as fond of aleatory as Eno, but if he means repetition prevents the exposure of new ideas, his point is valid. Of course, the economic rationalists would have a thing or two to say about 'market forces'! > "...Classical music is music without Africa. It represents old-fashioned > hierarchical structures, ranking, all the levels of control. And he's not the only one to recognise this. John Shepherd, whom I've mentioned before, proposes that functional diatonic harmony articulates industrial capitalism and the argument is certainly interesting and quite persuasive ("Music as Social Text", Polity Press, 1991). But hierarchical structures do exist in non-Western music. For example, in the Ewe music of Ghana, there is often a lead drum part, support drumming parts and a time keeper in the form of a bell or bell and rattle. The Ewes use the analogy of the family: the 'father' or atsimevu (lead) drum, the 'mother' or sogo (sometimes takes the lead) drum, and so on, which is quite a sound one given their "family values" (Newt Gingrich, Jesse Helms and your pandering ilk ... get lost!) In Ashanti music, you have distinct repertoires associated with the courts, the common people and religious cults. Some of those distinctions are breaking down now and there were always crossovers between them, but I suspect a few Ashanti musicians lost their heads after trying to push the boundaries! (This isn't racist -- the Ashantis had an empire once and were into beheading as punishment.) > Kevin Kelly: "Do you have any guesses about what that reunited culture > would look like?" > Eno: "Yes. Do you know what I hate about computers? The problem with computers is that there is not enough Africa in them. Well, don't tell us what a reunited culture would look like, Brian! Despite what follows, the "computers not having enough Africa in them" strikes me as a rather silly statement. Perhaps Eno is hankering for the good ol' days of analog (and, as many of you will know, he is rather an analog head!). But let's face it, computers do what they do so well because they're discrete (digital). I think it probably has more to do with what people do with them, and _that's_ been said very often on this list! (Look at what Joe has done, or claims to have done, on his solitary VFX.) > One can be profoundly influenced by a culture and > shouldn't be accused of "cultural appropriation." Yes. I introduced the term cultural appropriation in my original message (about my Ghanaian music band) because that's what we were accused of doing (by a guy with an overwhelming sense of guilt for what his ancestors and predecessors did! --probably.) Kudos to whoever modified it to say cultural MISappropriation (see a previous message recently). > for example (at the risk of being flamed), the didgeridu + rhythm > stick is the distinguishing sound of some N. Australian tribes...but I bet > if you gave them oil drums instead, they'd come up with their own unique > instruments (different than the steel drum), and play them in such a way > that would mark the music as being "Australian-Aboriginal" in some > underlying way. Why do you think Yothu Yindi are so popular? (Even moreso since a couple of white guys, calling themselves -- wait for it! -- Filthy Lucre, remixed "Treaty" and put it beat and a bassline under it. Well, they sure made a bunch of lucre out of that!) Interestingly, one of the most popular Aboriginal acts is trio of singers called Tiddas ("sisters" in I don't know which language). IMO, the only time they sound even remotely Aboriginal is when they use clapsticks (very occasionally). So your point above isn't always true. Yet these women are being hailed as "inherently Aboriginal". And you can bet that some of their fans would flame me for saying this! > I respect all sincere musical efforts towards some > specified end. I may not particularly care for Ghanaian music, for > all I know...even when played by a full-blooded Ghanaian in Ghana! > (Although, knowing my eclectic tastes, there's a really good chance I > would like it a lot, and glean something from it for use in my own > music!) Thanks again, Harry. (Please excuse this brief gratuitous backslapping. And Michael Whitten thought Mike, Nick and Joe were a priveleged triumvirate!) You'll just have to wait unitl Adzohu is world famous! Looking forward to the next round of replies. Some commentary on the ethics of sampling would be welcomed (by me at least). Regards David Rodger | Fax: +61-3-479-3651 Music Department | E-mail: musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au School of Art and Media | La Trobe University | "It was a failed boot... Bundoora VIC 3083 | commonly called getting your feet wet!" AUSTRALIA | --Chris Lai ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:49:31 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: HAECKERH@OSPREY.NWRC.GOV Subject: Culture as seen by Eno (longish) >An aside first off: I notice that a few people have been unsubbing lately. >Do you think we frustrated them? Nah...I think there are always people signing on and off, and a certain percentage of them are (to put it mildly and kindly) forgetful of how to sub and un-sub. Or maybe they just like to bother poor beleaguered Mike M. or Joe M. and enjoy that "personal touch" of being hand unsubscribed. >...this is an ethical issue, which, while implicit in people's >discussions, was not specifically stated and may not be obvious to all. This topic IS an important one for artists and would-be artists, and that's not just my "humble opinion," as some people like to abbreviate on the Net. >This list has a well-informed, intelligent membership, so that most of >the time we don't have to resort to extreme flaming, which, I think >Harry, is what Jose's congratulations (which you kindly reprised) were >saying. Actually, I didn't post that reprise, but I agree with its content. I tend not to engage in flamewars on the Net, especially on this list: I don't have time for it; it serves no purpose except to feed the ego(s) of the flamer(s); and besides, I don't want to be kicked off this list! >I hope this doesn't mean that we can't criticise other cultures at all. Sure, criticise whomsoever you desire...there are plenty of countries that have horrid human rights records (inc. my own to some extent) just don't take away their bagpipes, hula tradition, or PPG's...or kill them with germ warfare if they don't convert to your brand of theology (*esp.* don't take away their bagpipes!!). >I am simply referring to the habit in recent years of setting (warning: >imminent generalisation!) EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING to a funky, James Brown- >type of drumbeat. I see...I don't know, either. I take it to be a rhetorical, albeit valid, question. I'm pretty much out of the mainstream: until just two months ago I didn't even know what rave, techno, hip-hop, ambient-techno, _ad nauseam_, meant. I've never been to a rave or even a dance hall in 20 years. It took a reader's question and Mike M.'s (?) response for me to even partially understand. I'm intentionally keeping myself ignorant of the vast majority of "pop" stuff..."all things must pass," and I want to explore composition without being unduly influenced by ephemeral styles. I quote David Roger: "Now for the really interesting part (and, since it comes from Eno, today's ObEmCon!)..." But first, a disclaimer <> (which will most likely be ignored later on by people who may read permutations of this thread in the next couple of days): I enjoy reading about, grokking, and quoting other artists' philosophies...but their views are very seldom my own. I'm developing my own personal paradigm of art, and have only quoted Eno's because it seemed a pertinent example for the discussion at hand. I personally don't think (as he seemed to indicate) that the African mind-set, whatever *that* is, is the epitome of where everyone needs to be in their artistic lives. I just respect his desire to learn from other cultures and attempt to incorporate their mind-set in his music. >>"Africa is everything that something like classical music isn't. >>Classical- perhaps I should say "orchestral" - music is so digital, so cut >>up, rhythmically, pitch-wise and in terms of the roles of the musicians. It's >>all in little boxes. >More than a whiff of Cartesian dualism and reductionism, methinks. >(Any phenomenologists out there!?) Yes, he is making a dichotomous distinction between Western music and what he considers African music, but for the most part, I think it's warranted...at least if one looks at the Western orchestral tradition of playing the same 300 years of music over and over. Some of the later 20th century pieces try to break away from that compartmentalised feel, but not many orchestras are willing to "make" their paying audience sit through something that's not "pretty", i.e., tonal and recognisable. Hey, someone might stand up and boo loudly! >> "...The reason you get child prodigies in chess, arithmetic, and classical >>composition is that they are all worlds of discontinuous, parceled-up >>possibilities. >You get them anywhere. I agree, and didn't know what he was driving at with that statement, either. >> "...And the fact that orchestras play the same thing over and over >>bothers me. >Well, we aren't all as fond of aleatory as Eno, but if he means repetition >prevents the exposure of new ideas, his point is valid. Of course, the >economic rationalists would have a thing or two to say about 'market >forces'! Yes, I think he was referring to the same _corpus_ of music, from Bach to R. Strauss (heaven forbid the playing of too much "modern" compositions from the likes of Berg), and not repetition within a particular piece of music. This relates directly to my previous paragraph. >> "...Classical music is music without Africa. It represents >>old-fashioned hierarchical structures, ranking, all the levels of >>control. >John Shepherd...proposes that functional diatonic harmony articulates >industrial capitalism...("Music as Social Text", Polity Press, 1991). Just looked this one up in the LSU on-line catalogue. Not there, but I bet the 7-story Univ. of Georgia library has it...and I'll be moving to Athens (a.k.a. "Chronic Town") this Fall. Sorry for this back slap, but you are obviously a well-read individual. > But hierarchical structures do exist in non-Western music. Again, I don't agree with Eno's gross generalisation with respect to "African music," either. >Newt Gingrich, Jesse Helms and your pandering ilk ... get lost!) alt.political.family_values.flame :-)) In Ashanti music...some of those distinctions are breaking down now and there were always crossovers between them. Yes! Another great example of how music simultaneously leads and reflects societal turbulance. >but I suspect a few Ashanti musicians lost their heads after trying to >push the boundaries! ...and Pete Seeger's antiwar music was censored on the Smothers Brothers show during the Vietnam War. >> Kevin Kelly: "Do you have any guesses about what that reunited >>culture would look like?" >> Eno: "Yes. Do you know what I hate about computers? The problem with >>computers is that there is not enough Africa in them. >Well, don't tell us what a reunited culture would look like, Brian! I, too, noticed that he side-stepped a direct answer with that non-sequitur. However, the interviewer indicated that this was not so much a direct transcript of one interview, but "a paella" taken from many interviews over several months...this was probably just a bad edit job. >Despite what follows, the "computers not having enough Africa in them" >strikes me as a rather silly statement. Sorry I couldn't quote more from the article, David, but he goes on to talk about the silly little mouse that we're forced to use as an input device. You just have to read the article yourself if you want the entire context. By the nature of the article, one concept leads into another, and I'd have to type the whole shebang, and be in violation of copyright laws! I'm reminded of Nick Rothwell's (and others' on this list) stated desire for other kinds of input devices to better relate with what is happening on stage, and why it is that MAX is so useful to him. I think that Nick has a lot of Africa in him, at least by Eno's standards, at least from what I can glean from the missives I've read from him in the past year and a half. I guess that means he's not a nerd? :) >Why do you think Yothu Yindi are so popular? I dunno...their James Brown Funky Beat? I've got their 1994 (?) CD. They're OK, but I didn't see them when they came to New Orleans last year, even though I won tickets. I'd prefer being invited to experience an Aboriginal ceremony first hand, somewhere in the Outback (as long as it wasn't the rite of passage where my penis would be split open down to the urethra with a sharp rock...well, maybe that too, if the music was good enough!). >Filthy Lucre remixed "Treaty" and put it beat and a bassline under it. Jeez. UCK. >IMO, the only time [Tiddas] sounds even remotely Aboriginal is when >they use clapsticks (very occasionally). So your point above isn't >always true. Yet these women are being hailed as "inherently >Aboriginal". No, again, I'm caught by my over-generalisations. Anyway, what I was postulating could not really be done; this is sort of a tree-in-the-forest-making-a-sound mind game (and is probably a useless waste of bandwidth). Magically make all indigenous instruments of an *isolated* tribe disappear and replace them with something else. I just think that the mind-set could still be discerned through the new music. I'm not really saying anything profound here. <"Duh, what's new?" the limited readers say in a stage whisper> >You'll just have to wait until Adzohu is world famous! Or I'll write you direct for info on obtaining recordings of your music. >Looking forward to the next round of replies. Some commentary on the >ethics of sampling would be welcomed (by me at least). I don't use ANYONE'S music as is. In my not-so-humble opinion (IMNSHO) if one is so limp-minded as to need someone else's ideas as an >>obvious<< jumping-off point for their music, I think they should get into some other line of work and donate their equipment to a deserving individual (read, ME!). I'd have to listen to the music myself, but from what David said, I consider what _Filthy Lucre_ did just plain plagerism. Since there is an infinite number of sounds and an infinite order to those sounds, there's no reason why someone should use someone else's ideas, with the possible exception of satire or sociological statement. My personal limit is "if it can be recognised as coming from some other copyrighted source, then pervert it more!" Run it through some more DSP's for goodness sake! My style uses found sound, but seldom copyrighted, and never recognizable...I like to whap on things, or record gaggles of prepubescent girls at the local mall and make them sound like mating pterodactyls. Sometimes I'll record a snippet from a CD and reduce it to a single-cycle waveform, and combine it with my own voice, or didgeridu, or bowed psaltery, etc. There's too much still hidden in the world and so much to be found for one to stoop to using someone else's loops or entire songs! I consider that cheating, or at the very least the easy way out. Since I don't sell any of my music, and haven't made a dime out of it (although I've invested about $20k in my weenie "studio"), I don't feel bad about using a few milliseconds here and there from other recordings and rearranging the waveforms for personal jollies. I must leave for now, and for the weekend. Harry Haecker (haeckerh@nwrc.gov) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 15:12:17 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Sorry, it's a hoax - was Warning, Will Robinson In-Reply-To: <950421133008_91234263@aol.com> from "DFrancisM@AOL.COM" at Apr 21, 95 01:30:15 pm Furst: I appreciate the concern that you have for the rest of the list. However, security threats are best reported to the persons best able to take care of them: the listowners and the security folks at your site or service provider. Second: You've unfortunately been had by the dickweeds who thought this would be funny. See my technical comments below - I am somewhat of an expert on viruses, especially those of the Mac flavor. I'm not blaming you - it's fairly well set up to take in someone who doesn't know that much about viruses. Just please, if you have something like this, send it to me or Metlay *first* so we can check it out. Deconstruction and rude comments follow. > Some miscreant is sending email under the title "good times" > nation-wide. If you get anything like this, DON'T DOWNLOAD THE FILE! It > has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating anything on it. > Please be careful and forward this mail to anyone you care about. This rumour had, I thought, been assassinated some time ago. I guess we've got another Craig Shergold story on our hands. > The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a matter of major > importance to any regular user of the Internet. Apparently, a new computer > virus has been engineered by a user of America Online that is unparalled > in its destructive capability.Other, more well-known viruses such as > Stoned, Airwolf, and Michaelangelo pale in comparison to the prospects of > this newest creation by a warped mentality. > This is a lie. NO such release was ever made. This is a fictional claim made to give this a semblance of verisimilitude. > What makes this virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the fact that no > program needs to be exchanged for a new computer to be infected. This is completely incorrect. A virus is a program like any other; it must a) be compatible with the computer and operating system, and b) be executed before it can do anything. Mail is mail; data, not program. it never gets executed unless you, specifically, load it into a file and try to execute it. > spread through the existing e-mail systems of the InterNet. Once a computer > is infected, one of several things can happen. If the computer contains a > hard drive, that will most likely be destroyed. If the program is not > stopped, the computer's processor will be placed in an nth-complexity > infinite binary loop, which can severely damage the processor if left > running that way too long. *This* is bullshit technobabble on the level of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Nth-complexity infinite binary loop, my ass. An instruction is an instruction. You think the CPU is just sitting there doing nothing when you're not actively executing a program? Uh-uh. It's *always* running. The idea that a program could damage a CPU chip simply by executing on it is the wildest of fantasy. (Pardon the language, but manipulation of people via fear and ignorance severely pisses me off.) > Unfortunately, most novice computer users will > not realize what is happening until it is far too late. > > > Luckily, there is one sure means of detecting what is now known as the "Good > Times" virus. It always travels to new computers the same way in a test > e-mail message with the subject line reading simply "Good Times." > > Avoiding infection is easy once the file has been received - not reading it. > The act of loading the file into the mail server's ASCII buffer causes the > "Good Times" mainline program to initialize and execute. Try again, stupid. THIS IS A LIE. If this were true, AOL's main servers would already be dead and you couldn't log on to read your mail *anyway*... > The program is > highly intelligent - it will send copies of itself to everyone whose e-mail > address is contained in a received-mail file or a sent-mail file, if it can > find one. It will then trash the computer it is running on. And it must be about this size of Windows95 to be able to execute on any platform, which is what's implied here. Total idiocy. > > The bottom line here is - if you receive a file with the subject line "Good > Times," delete it immediately! Do not read it! Rest assured that > whoever's name was on the "From:" line was surely struck by the virus. > This was followed up by a chain letter which had "Good Times" as the subject line. Cute, isn't it? Don't these people have anything better to do that sit around and giggle masturbatorially about how they're attempting to trash the very vehicle that allows them to communicate? > Warn your friends and local system users of this newest threat to the > InterNet! It could save them a lot of time and money." > > Please pass this on...especially to anyone you know that uses > "America Online" regularly. > > Regards, > > Ed Krach, ECNE/MCP > NPA Chapter Relations Manager > > Tuesday, April 18, 1995 at 11:23 AM > Using EMail Assist for CSNav > Sounds real damn official, doesn't it? Jerk. This whole thing was carried out as a hoax and was exposed some time ago. Don't bother. And tell the person you got it from that this was all a big hoax. Feel free to copy this letter to them. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 17:31:10 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: h a u s Subject: FS: Tascam 238 8trk + Remote Tascam 238 8trk with remote for sale. Unit has dbx noise reduction. Channel 8 has filter for time code. Great unit, has had little use in clean studio. Asking for $1500.00US plus shipping, COD's only. Those interested please reply to haus@io.org. Also, Alesis 3630 2chnl compressor/gate for sale, mint condition with box and manual, asking $200.00US plus shipping, COD's only as well. Christos ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 18:03:31 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mace Yampolsky Subject: Re: new young industrial craz... It sounds like you are thoroughly immersed. I'm in the middle of sequencing songs which I had previouslu preserved on an Ensonic sq-80. The path to Master tracks has been frustrating to say the least .Once I'm in final form I will use Music time to notatte the songs. It's taking me much too much time and I have a time intensive day job. Any hints to shorten the learning curve or my frustration would be appreciated. Good Luck Mace ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 19:26:32 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Conlen Subject: Good Times. Comments: To: Joe McMahon In-Reply-To: <199504211912.PAA15902@clark.net> > This is completely incorrect. A virus is a program like any other; it > must a) be compatible with the computer and operating system, and b) be > executed before it can do anything. Mail is mail; data, not program. > it never gets executed unless you, specifically, load it into a file and try > to execute it. Understanding that "Good Times" is a hoax, pulled off, pretty well, I might add, many might confuse ANSI Bomb with Virus, then (showing the hoax) be brought up to the standards we have wittnessed from viri. A simple ANSI bomb could however reassign the enter key to send the string, [esc] format c: /autotest which would kill your hard drive, unless the person is smart enough to know how to unformat (Many arent). Or run fdisk with some unknown feature, as there are many, that we dont know about to automaticaly take care of the HD. What da ya think? Plasuable (I'm asking you as the expert)? I havent been given any real response to my theory > > Unfortunately, most novice computer users will > > not realize what is happening until it is far too late. Thats exactly what the authors of the orignal message did! Groove on Dude Michael Conlen meconlen@intnet.net ======================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 12:33:40 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Culture as seen by Eno (longish) A short reply to Harry... About Yothu Tindi: the remix of Treaty was done as an experiment and picked up by the record company with Yothu Yindi's approval. What I meant by >they sure made some lucre out of that or words to that effect, was that Yothu Yindi made the lucre, which is as it should be. I don't disapprove of the Filthy Lucre remix; I thought that, within the stylistic parameters of the genre it worked quite well and didn't draw too much attention away from the lyrics. Where the original vocal recordings were used they were left unscathed by remix techniques (like telephone EQ or masses of dub-like reverb and echo), so the original intent still emerged. For those only recently joining this thread, this reply is to Harry Haecker whose previous letter quoted Brian Eno on the ethics and aesthetics of sampling and computers. We are threatening to turn this into a rather intense argument of ethics, so please feel free to contribute. You might like to bring us back into the real world by telling us how you sample, what you sample and how you regard the issue generally. (We've tended to concentrate more on the abstracts, although Harry's last reply described what _he_ does. My sampling? I don't do any because I don't have a sampler. I don't compose anything either (well, not often). Regards David Rodger, | Fax: +61-3-479-3651 (mark "ATT.: David Rodger") Music Department, | E-mail: musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au School of Art and Media, | La Trobe University | "It was a boot failure ... Bundoora VIC 3083 | commonly called getting your feet wet!" Australia | -- Chris Lai ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 23:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: FS: Tascam 238 8trk + Remote In-Reply-To: <199504212130.RAA21981@io.org> from "h a u s" at Apr 21, 95 05:31:10 pm Wrong list - I've moved it to SYNTH-L. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Apr 1995 22:24:25 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: Culture as seen by Eno (longish) the debonair words of Harry Haecker: > There's too much still hidden in the world and so much to be found for one to stoop to >using someone else's loops or entire songs! I consider that cheating, or at the very >least the easy way out. harry, regarding the rest of your post, it's very complex and raises a lot of issues; i agree with much of your reasoning. however, the above i do not agree with. i don't write using those specific techniques but i think that an artistic sound palette could easily be made up of another composer's work plus whatever additions, transformations, etc. i'm thinking particularly of berio's sinfonia or the baroque variations of lukas foss, or in a different medium, a drawing (i believe by jasper johns) which was nothing more than erasures of a pre-existing work of another artist (rauchenberg?). musically, i could easily see a piece done with just eq and gain/attenuation changes to an existent piece. i think visual artists seem to have much less trouble appropriating outside materials and using them, and i think there's a lot we as musicians can learn from painters/visual aartists about being not too opinionated as to shut out possibilities. best, jetman@tunanet.com jeff talman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 10:27:11 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Bradley A. Barkett" Subject: untamed discussion/ethical rants I enjoy some of these ethical/philosophical discussions. I can even see how one might get bored with the technical discussion of electronic music. But when I get 10 pieces of mail with "intellectual farts" (opinions) contained, I can only wish there was a way to block certain subject headers. Not that I only desire to drain everyone's technical knowledge, but I've got to read all of this ONLINE, because I have the laughable DOS version of AOL software. I plan to upgrade soon, (I'm gonna dive, and actually buy a 3.5" disk drive,) and then I can stop bitching. At any rate, this list is still very amusing, however costly, and if I keep going at this rate, all of my upgrade money will be blown on AOL hours. :*( Let's talk about analog synthesis (from a flat wave) on the Prophet-5 polyphonic, with the nice wood body. *Also, I have another suggestion. It is probably apparent that, at 22, I am not exactly the most experienced or technical person here, but I have a lot of crazy experience with popular music forms that you might find interesting. Let's talk about this. Then we can all collaborate on a total sellout project, market it at ungrateful suburban kids, and thicken our wallets. The generation gap is a very profitable industry. Besides, I hate working at Lowe's. Brad Barkett aka DJGROOVES. AOL.COM (amateur online) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 17:37:29 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Puckett Catherine E Subject: Intellectual farts? Comments: To: emusic-l@american.edu Hi brad, I am willing to talk about anything musical; however, posting something about a Prophet 5 (with a nice wood body) on the e-music list is less appropriate than posting it to the synth-l list. Compositional forms would be interesting to hear about here, though. Instead of just *saying* that it would be interesting to talk about...DO IT! Also, try joining Analogue Heaven list for great discussions on those kind of topics dealing with EML's, Prophets, and Moogs. Sometimes we old fart-heads on this list get onto subjects that aren't directly re- lated to MIDI, the coolest timbre we've heard in the past 24 hours, or how nice the real wood on a Prophet 5 was. The tangential things like "is it OK to sample other people's work and call it your own" can still be instructive to some of the other 500+ people on this list. I recall a thread that I started last year concerning the use of dataloggers in Coastal Louisiana marshes to generate numbers for subsequent aural modelling. Simple concept, right? Nyet. It immediately degenerated into "is this music or not?" It happens. But from gleaning through the chaff I was able to get the info I need to start on this project....if only my boss thought it were a worthwhile project :-( Anyway, if I were you, I'd go through the headers and delete anything that looks like it smacks of philosophy...the words Eno, longish, culture, morals, etc., should tip you off. Don't even read it. BTW, I appreciate your predicament of working at Lowe's Building Supply...I worked at Sears, Roebuck, and Co. selling shoes before getting a REAL job, scooping ice cream at Swensen's Ice Cream Factory :^| (please excuse any typos: I'm using an idiotic line editor....I noticed that I used a lower case "b" in spelling your name, Brad. This was unintentional.) sincerely, Harry Haecker (haeckerh@nwrc.gov) via my girlfriend's account, cep6494@usl.gov ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Apr 1995 18:29:21 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: in shadows of retribution Subject: Kawau Gmega LX In-Reply-To: <199504222237.AA06797@b82.ucs.usl.edu> I'm probably going to get this (cheap) synthmodule soon. So I'm just curious. When it was listed originally (sp) at arround 700 dollars was that a ligit price? If you've heard it what do you think of it? Relative to the price what is your opinion of the sounds? and last of all should i have posted this to synth-l instead of here? I'm just tired of deleting the same message twice! ps - sorry i spelled Kawai wrong