========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 22:48:43 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Arne Claassen Subject: Rackmount for syquest drive Comments: To: synth-l@AMERICAN.EDU I'm looking for companies that sell rackmount kits for 5-1/4" removable drives such as the Syquest 88. So far i've only come across rackmount drives with CD-ROM/removable and/or HD already installed. I already have the drive, just need to rackmount it. Thanks, arne Arne Claassen WWW: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Attention: My address has changed! While claassen@ebs330.eb.uah.edu is still valid is only forwards to my new address now ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:14:07 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Sean Finn Subject: Addresses Can anyone out there point me toward the following people, via email or otherwise? Thanks in advance! Miller Puckett (UCSD) James Moberley Sean P. Finn French hornist, Violinist, Bass guitarist, 921 Saint Paul Street Recording Engineer, Electrophile, Experimentalist Apartment B-1 spf21@peabody.jhu.edu voice: (410) 783-4958 Baltimore, MD 21202 (fax at the same # with advance notice) ______________________________________________________________________________ "Don't talk...PLAY!" "Our lives are quiet... --Nadie Boulanger We like to be disturbed by delight."--Sophia Grojsman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:50:11 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: clive@PELICAN.DBE.CSIRO.AU Subject: Re: samples/overuse, repeat repete >> Is a good instrument one which can give you the sound that's in your head, >> or one which puts a new sound there instead? (Hey, I like that.) > >To answer your question, Nick; in my opinion, yes! ;-) > I agree: I'd like both, please. The trick, of course, is switching between the *intuitive* and *tangential* modes.... Regards Clive Clive McFarland CSIRO Australia clive@pelican.dbe.csiro.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:26:38 UTC Reply-To: an390503@anon.penet.fi Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Urban Spaceman Organization: Anonymous forwarding service Subject: Over-use? They were all at it! Ok, so people worry about having sounds that are derivatine, however, it hasn't been a problem in the past i.e. the great composers and early rock bands etc. Could it be that people are trying to be different through sound textures rather than creating music that is stylistically different. It seems that many people jump on and off musical band wagons without developing their own style. --****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION*** Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED. Please, report inappropriate use to abuse@anon.penet.fi For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to help@anon.penet.fi If you have any problems, address them to admin@anon.penet.fi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:11:29 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Simon.Weatherill@COAT.COM Subject: CSN sequence wanted I'm looking for a sequence for the CSN song "Wasted On the Way". I need it for a wedding I'm playing this weekend and I wouldn't be able to get the sheet music for 2 weeks. It's such a tight harmony that I can't figure it out myself. Help! Please respond to me directly as I am not on this list. Thanks a million, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: CGP@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted I haven't encountered harmonies so tight that I can't figure them out. Maybe you could work on this skill to avoid future problems like this. CGP ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:08:21 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: James Paul Sain Subject: CALL FOR WORKS & PAPERS Comments: To: mainger@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, bbeerma@opie.bgsu.edu, bbelet@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu, 75301.2003@compuserve.com, david@music.calarts.edu, chadabe@csc.albany.edu, kirk-corey@uiowa.edu, fdesena@umiami.ir.miami.edu, johndu@world.std.com, hfortuin@delphi.com, dfreund@indiana.edu, garciao@servax.fiu.edu, dsgodfre@mailbox.syr.edu, dgompper@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu, hepzibel@aol.com, lgrahn@capaccess.org, gah@asu.edu, shamm@ufcc.ufl.edu, dheuser@indiana.edu, dhindman@bsc.edu, hinkletu@ux1.cso.uius.edu, ho@saturn.montclair.edu, lhoffman@ac.dal.ca, howe@aaron.music.qc.edu, mjohnson@ua1vm.ua.edu, juusela@suvax1.stetson.edu, kallsmj@wkuvx1.wku.edu, kudo@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu, lippe@acsu.buffalo.edu, lehrman@eagle.liunet.edu, bmahin@ruacad.ac.runet.edu, cmason@bsc.edu, mimccart@ruby.indstate.edu, compfrm@maroon.tc.umn.edu, rmont@sunmuw1.muw.edu, nelsonj@servax.fiu.edu, v2389h2r@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, redi@acuvax.acu.edu, rothbart@ithaca.edu, airubin@silvertone.princeton.edu, mtsatt01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu, hschiffm@mailer.fsu.edu, eschwart@polar.bowdoin.edu, 00gasteinke@bsuvc.bsu.edu, rossmans@aol.com, dthome@uwashington.edu, musrst@gsusgi2.gsu.edu, u5600@wvnvm.wvnet.edu, dvayo@titan.iwu.edu, 72652.2367@compuserve.com, rodney_washka@ncsu.edu, weidenaa@pilot.njin.net, dweymouth@ccmail.sunysb.edu, mats.claesson@notam.uio.no, lms@vxscaq.aquila.infn.it, david@jaffe.com, fnelson@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu, furman@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu, fburns@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu, smithem@yvax.byu.edu, gsingh@sjsuvmq.sjsu.edu, larry.polansky@dartmouth.edu, vivian@peabody.jhu.edu, toni@nexttis.unipd.it, elarson@msu.edu, p.stollery@norcol.ac.uk, rsn@dartmouth.edu, reed@brcsun.tamu.edu, layers@cs.ust.hk, marco@ccrma.stanford.edu, david@silverstone.princeton.edu, rnelson@polar.bowdoin.edu, art@mailserver.idg.fi.cnr.edu, wryan@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu, mburtner@peabody.jhu.edu, sbeck@marais.math.lsu.edu, karpen@u.washington.edu, bil@ccrma.stanford.edu, users@ccrma.stanford.edu, users@cnmat.berkeley.edu, strange@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu, jon.appleton@dartmouth.edu, asmir@ccrma.stanford.edu, bv@cecelia.media.mit.edu, a.j.moore@bham.ac.uk, truax@sfu.ca, brad@woof.music.columbia.ed, preissin@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu, epstein@caip.rutgers.edu, D.Smalley@city.ac.uk, infomus@VAX2.CONCORDIA.CA, eMusc@aol.com, dhomontf@ere.umontreal.ca, hkt@zkm.de, icma@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu, jwb@timbre.music.uiuc.edu, j.alvarez@herts.ac.uk, dim@cam.org, hydej@bham.ac.uk, d.j.t.harrison@bham.ac.uk, joranru@notam.ni.no, michael@mcnabb.com, rolnick@iear.arts.rpi.edu, enstroem@kacor.kth.se, r.pinkston@mail.utexas.edu, stp@cnmat.berkeley.edu, ungvary@kacor.specch.kth.se, bjelkeborn@su-kom.mus.su.se, wsiegel@daimi.aau.dk, petrus@sems.se, lynch@lynch.ee.ufl.edu Fifth Annual Florida Electroacoustic Music Festival March 28-30, 1996 University of Florida Call for Works Call for Papers Composer-in-Residence, Gary Lee Nelson In cooperation with the North American Saxophone Alliance National Meeting ************************************************************* PLEASE POST ************************************************************* A call for electroacoustic art music works that fit into the following catagories: * works for tape alone * works for tape and instrumental solo - special interest in works for saxophone and tape * works for tape and vocal solo * works utilizing interactive MIDI applications - special interest in works utilizing MAX Deadline for the receipt of submitted work(s) is: NOVEMBER 15, 1995 All works that include live performance need be accompanied by a tape of a performance or high quality realization. All submissions must include a performance tape on DAT, performance parts and/or score, brief biography, and program notes. A SASE is _required_ for the return of all materials. Tapes of works selected for performance and those without SASE will become the property of the Florida Electroacoustic Music Studio. ************************************************************* A call for papers dealing with all aspects of electroacoustic music, computer music, acoustics, psychoacoustics, and related topics are sought for presentation during the Fifth Annual Florida Electroacoustic Music Festival. Submissions in the areas of granulation synthesis, physical modeling of musical constructs, fractal composition, and neural network applications in music are encouraged. Deadline for the receipt of submitted paper(s) is: NOVEMBER 15, 1995 Three copies of the completed paper should be accompanied by a brief biography. All papers submitted will become part of the Florida Electroacoustic Music Studio Library. ************************************************************* In its fifth year, the Florida Electroacoustic Music Festival has featured an international variety of contemporary electroacoustic art music. Past composers-in-residence have included computer music pioneer Hubert S. Howe, Jr. and internationally renowned composer Cort Lippe. SEND SUBMISSIONS AND INQUIRIES TO: Dr. James Paul Sain, Director of Electroacousic Music University of Florida Department of Music P.O. Box 117900/130 Music Bldg. Gainesville, FL 32611-7900 (904) 392-9313/voice (904) 392-0461/fax email - fems@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu www - http://nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu/~fems/emufest.html For more information on the electroacoustic music program at the University of Florida point your browser to the Florida Electroacoustic Music Studio home page. www - http://nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu/~fems ************************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:48:28 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: John Krikawa Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted At 10:51 AM 10/4/95 -0400, you wrote: > I haven't encountered harmonies so tight that I can't figure them >out. Maybe you could work on this skill to avoid future problems like this. > > CGP Perhaps, smart-ass, however he would like to play in two weeks, and needs assistance NOW. He's already tried to figure it out and is having trouble. I am sure Simon will continue trying to work things out on his own before asking for help. BTW Simon, what is CSN, :) -john JKRIKAWA@CCIT.Arizona.Edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:12:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Gus Lacy Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted > I haven't encountered harmonies so tight that I can't figure them >out. Maybe you could work on this skill to avoid future problems like this. > > CGP > That wasn't a nice thing to say. :) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:36:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: computer composition inquiry For the past year I have researched compsitional methods of composers. Often I've wondered what the computer would have meant to the great masters: what power 64 staves and 64 polyphony would have given Wagner in his efforts to please the ears of his patron Prince Leopolt, i.e. I am interested in writing an essay on the compositional techniques of modern composers; and, having been a *lurker* on the emusic list for a short while, I wish to expose my compositional technique in the hopes that other original writers will step foreward, sharing their bag of tricks with the list. Cole Porter always wrote the lyrics first. Then he'd sit at the keyboard, fitting a melody to the lyrics. From there he would fill out the harmony, and revise. Thomas "Fats" Waller would play his piano until he "heard somtething special." He would write out the lick he played. Then he would fit the lyrics and melody to the original piano part. Beethoven began with a sketch. Just a short musical phrase. He took his feather pen and scratched and scribbled, revising every aspect of a theme: the velocity, the legato versus staccato, phrase markings, etc. Mozart owned a canary and a billiards table. The canary would roll. Mozart could transcribe the canary's song, standing up, leaning over the billiards table. Mozart also kept a collection of themes he had come up with that he would use when composing in a hurry. John Allen Paulos wrote "Mozart once wrote a waltz in which he specified eleven different possibilities for fourteen of the sixteen bars of the waltz and two possibilities for one of the other bars." Most of the "possible" variations on this waltz will never be heard, for there are 2 times eleven to the power of fourteen different ways of playing the waltz. What techniques do various members of the emusic list utilize in original composition? Last night I utilized the following compositional technique: 1. Wrote a 32 bar three-four rhythm track in encore and saved it as a .MID file. 2. Opened master tracks pro and "looped" the drum track at 160 bpm through a p.a. system. 3. Jammed in real time until getting used to the beat. Came up with some nice jazz chords that sounded pleasing to the ear. 4. Switched to midi guitar, and sequenced a guitar and bass part. Saved to .mid 5. Reopened the .mid file in encore, erased the drum notation, wrote a melody on the top stave that fit the sequence. 6. Saved as an .enc file. 7. Typed lyrics under the melody line. 8. Saved again. Please inform the list of ways you use to compose originals. Do you utilize samplers, etc? Or perhaps a canary and a billiards table. Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 17:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: CGP@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted I didn't mean to offend anyone by my comment. I guess that I just don't know what it's like not to be able to figure out a song, regardless of harmonic complexity, in less than 2 weeks! If my skill is that rare, then maybe I need to get out of my profession of teaching mathematics and get into some field of music where this could be utilized. RND ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 17:07:27 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: computer composition inquiry -Reply I fart around with a lot of compositional processes. Kind of like alchemy, or bushwhacking without a compass. Loosely refining and customizing the process as needed until the piece seems finished or I've dead-ended. The one common principle I've noted, at least for me has to do with the avoidance of dead-ending before the piece is complete. As long as the piece seems to be worthy of continued tinkering, and the available strategies for improving the piece seem to be working or have promise of bearing additional fruit, and no other activity in my short life seems to require maintenance or appears to be more rewarding or exciting for the moment, I'll continue. More important than the creation of a new composition is the creation of a new compositional process. Once the process is mastered, new compositions can be spewed out indefinitely, even by computer. The exploration of a new technique is fundamentally more interesting than refining the cliche and safe techniques already identified, cataloged and mastered. Thus, the excitement of experimenting with some new approach may tip the balance, even though the risk of not completing an appreciable piece may be higher. Another self-indulgent dimension I hinted at is that the execution of this process of composition must be fun and rewarding in order to justify a microsecond of my precious time. This places value on group/communal compositional activities, interactive improvisational methods and the expectation of being able to share, at some future point, the piece with an appreciative audience or collaborator. At first glance, all this may seem to be totally complementary, but it isn't. It is possible to find some cliche, shared form that is a delight to play around with in a group setting (say playing the "Blues") but significantly less interesting and justifiable as a personal project. Finally, in the big scheme of things, for the vast expanse of human existence, music was an extemporized and shared, communal activity. The experience was self justifying, and fleeting. Only recently has the emphasis on preplanning our sounds, mirroring the imposition of an artificial and sterile complexity on our culture, excluded most people from participating, and instilled a cancer-like quest for "perfection". Sometimes I prefer to watch a group of wild geese in motion than a marching band at half time- at least they are unencumbered by the banalities of our culture. -rob ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 21:43:34 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Bostel Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted > I didn't mean to offend anyone by my comment. I guess that I just >don't know what it's like not to be able to figure out a song, regardless of >harmonic complexity, in less than 2 weeks! > If my skill is that rare, then maybe I need to get out of my >profession of teaching mathematics and get into some field of music where >this could be utilized. > > RND > ... or public relations perhaps ... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 20:33:44 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Spamboy Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry In-Reply-To: I can in no way equate myself with the composers mentioned earlier in this thread (Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner (and I don't even like those composers. I'm more partial to Stravinsky, Ravel, and Prokofiev)), but I find the subject of this thread fascinating. I am very interested in how composers come up with ideas, and so I would love to share my methods in hopes of hearing everyone else's. First, composing is a lot of luck for me. I usually stumble across a good idea by just jamming away. A good composer can hear an idea and then build upon that "mistake". Most of my best pieces came from mistakes I made while jamming away. I just happened to pay attention when I made them, and then refined the mistakes into a coherent idea. It helps to have a tape recorder running, or even better, to have a sequencer running, and recording everything. I'll jam for like 10 minutes, and I'll probably have just one good idea in there. Usually the idea lasts for about 2 seconds. Then I'll take those 2 seconds and create a bigger idea from that. Making the idea bigger is either very easy or very hard. It either pops into my head or I have to force it. When I come to an impass, it's time to press record on the sequencer again, and jam for 10 minutes, and hopefully I'll come up with something. It's all luck I swear. Rarely do I wake up in the middle of the night with a melody in my head. Some lucky guys can do that. I envy them. I work hard to get my music out of me, but it's my favorite thing to do. That's what I do. I hope to hear tons of other composers' methods. I'm very open to try new things. Let's keep this thread alive. Randy Budnikas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Randy@isaac.biola.edu 8182 Glengarry Green *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES * 714-522-BITE Buena Park, CA 90621 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:41:50 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: CSN Help > BTW Simon, what is CSN, :) That would be Crosby, Stills & Nash. Add a Y if Neil Young is tagging along! Sorry I don't have a MIDI file to share but perhaps this tip will help you pick out the parts by ear a little more easily. The outer parts are always easier to hear than the inner parts. Assuming that there are only three vocal parts (no overdubs), first pick out the top part. Then do the bottom part. The middle part should be a lot easier to find once you have the outer parts written out because it is, after all, in the middle! Hopefully, this tip and being under the gun will get your adrenaline flowing and you'll have all three parts written out by supper time! Good luck. Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 07:24:22 EDT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter K Schoenhoff Subject: Re: CSN Sequence Wanted Comments: To: Simon.Weatherill@COAT.COM These are the graceful words of Simon.Weatherill@COAT.COM: ->I'm looking for a sequence for the CSN song "Wasted On the Way". I ->need it for a wedding I'm playing this weekend and I wouldn't be able ->to get the sheet music for 2 weeks. It's such a tight harmony that I ->can't figure it out myself. Help! The song you speak of was originally on the 1982 Warner Brothers Album "Crosby Stills and Nash - Daylight Again." I checked the liner notes of the album and I may have a partial explaination for your difficulty. (Also I hope this offers a bit of understanding to the person who advised you to "practice this skill.") While Neil Young does not appear on this album, they do list an additional vocalist for several songs, including this one. His name is Timothy B. Schmidt, and he also played bass for another song on the album. Anyway, if you were (understandably) seeking out voices for a three part harmony, undoubtably you would have been confused. It is indeed a four part vocal. Also, CSN (and sometimes Y) often stereo separate their vocals, so that you can eliminate on part by turning the ballance all the way to the left or right. On this track, though, they mixed the voclas all dead center, so it is impossible to distinguish parts by listening to a selective "direction." I do not have a sequence, but I also suggest what was said about listening to the top and bottom and then filling in the middle later. Bear in mind that sometimes on this song, two vocals double one note. I'll try to see what I can hear too, and I'll let you know what I come up with. Good Luck. -Pete Schoenhoff _\|/_ pschoenh@pen.k12.va.us ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 07:23:32 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Computer composition > Cole Porter always wrote the lyrics first. Then he'd sit at the keyboard, > fitting a melody to the lyrics. as did wagner, verdi and mozart, etc. > > Thomas "Fats" Waller would play his piano until he "heard somtething > special." He would write out the lick he played. Then he would fit > the lyrics and melody to the original piano part. > > Beethoven began with a sketch. Just a short musical phrase. He took > his feather pen and scratched and scribbled, revising every aspect of > a theme: the velocity, the legato versus staccato, phrase markings, etc. I would suggest that beethoven began with some rather specific assumptions about the dimensions and flow of his music prior to the actual working out of melodic ideas: almost all of his pieces are in the same form (or some variety of it) and when he deviates, the deviations are so well prepared that it is clear he was planning this at some level of abstraction beyond that of the mere note to note progress of the piece. The same is true for Mozart, and in a book called "the compositional process of JS Bach" it was demonstrated that the first step in Bach's compositional process was to draw the barlines on the staff: thus Bach apparently calculated the dimensions of his pieces prior to working out the motivic material. (this may be misleading given his ability to improvise even the most difficult styles of music, but the point is that the determination of dimension was the first most important task in his written compositional process). thus, while composers may (ala Waller) play around looking for interesting sounds, the way they actually compose (i.e. put things together) is often unrelated to the search for sounds or expressions, but has its own logic. since there are no longer universal forms in use, that is the first decision I make in composing. this is important because the expression of the elements within a given musical space will be determined by their relationship which is at the deepest levels defined by the space itself. once the most abstract decisions are made it is progressively easier to make the decisions working down towards the level of note to note interaction to the point that substantial pieces can be written almost as fast (or faster) than the time it takes to copy them. mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:38:42 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted In-Reply-To: <951004172711_116238468@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "CGP@AOL.COM" at Oct 4, 95 05:27:13 pm > If my skill is that rare, then maybe I need to get out of my > profession of teaching mathematics and get into some field of music where > this could be utilized. Seriously consider doing it part-time. There are a lot of musicians who aren't at all good at transcription. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:06:56 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry At 8:33 PM 10/4/95, Spamboy wrote: >I can in no way equate myself with the composers mentioned earlier in >this thread (Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner (and I don't even like those >composers. I'm more partial to Stravinsky, Ravel, and Prokofiev)) I find it amusing that you don't like these classical composers, and yet you like the quintessential trio of neo-classical fellows influenced by two (or at the very least one) of these composers. My composition teacher always told me that the way to compose is to come up with as much music as you can or feel like writing, after which MAYBE 25% is worth keeping. I had lessons with him while he was writing an opera, and one night he stayed up until 5 am, having written 300 hundred mesures of music - he told me the next day, "Ah, I'll throw away half of it." It's sorta like sculpting - you have a big mass of stuff, and you carve away what isn't art. Matthew Ross Davis HuskyLabs mozart@butterfly.net http://www.butterfly.net/husky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:09:22 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Lonnie E. Moseley" Subject: Re: CSN Sequence Wanted God, its people like Peter Schoenhoff and william b fox that make me glad I joined this group. I run a computer software training company and am a trainer (Microsoft end-user/network products), taking jazz piano lessons for the first time at the age of 46 and my teacher is desperately trying to get me to understand improvisational piano and harmonic devices. All of his pushing and grunting to teach me has inspired us to write a book together for "piano newbies" "baby boomers who always wanted to understand why they loved CSN" and "pains in the ass" (like myself who are too busy to practice). My computer training expertise and his musical and compositional playing and teaching expertise will be blended to produce a "step by step" - so to speak - method for thinking about melody and harmony. I am actually more encouraged about the idea of writing this book now after reading this thread and realizing that there is a community of people who may be able to provide some great feedback and whom with we could have a possible (paid) contributive relationship. I will keep everyone posted - even if the idea dies in germination. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:21:54 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Crandall Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry In-Reply-To: On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Spamboy wrote: > A good composer can hear an idea and then build upon that "mistake". > Most of my best pieces came from mistakes I made while jamming away. My favorite quote from Thelonious Monk: "There's two kinds of mistakes. The regular kind, and the ones that don't sound so good." On the other hand, you hear of Mozart talking about "hearing the whole piece at once." This indicates to me some combination of (1) synesthesia and (2) conceiving of music as architecture. I think I deleted part of this thread by mistake on my system here, so if this has already been addressed, pardon. But I'm curious about the notion of defining musical space and then building in it. (As I write this, Marshall T's post already talks about it.) Specifically how does it work, or feel to work that way, with or without traditional models (AABB, sonata, verse-chorus-bridge)? What about "groove" musics such as chant, dance music, or algorithmic pieces that can go on forever? It seems there is an important difference between sound-generating processes (algorithms, "mistakes") and processes that generate a sense of *space* first. We hear lots about "virtual space" that is analagous to architecture these days, but this kind of space has already been explored by musicians over the last few hundred years. (And by classical memory artists such as orators before that.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Spamboy Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry In-Reply-To: >But I'm curious about the notion of defining musical >space and then building in it. (As I write this, Marshall T's post >already talks about it.) Specifically how does it work, or feel to work >that way, with or without traditional models (AABB, sonata, >verse-chorus-bridge)? Why does form work? Because we've been brought up in a culture of sonata, verse-chorus-bridge, AABB forms. We tend to like what is familiar. It's safe. We are not as used to Wagnerian forms which don't do much recapitulating. I don't know of one person who doesn't yawn at least once while listening to Wagner. He has some great ideas once in awhile, but for the most part my mind starts to wander. When a section repeats, it is familiar, and it brings my attention back. When a person is listening to one of my pieces, I look at their eyes, and when I start to see their eyes wander, I know they're bored. I'm not grabbing their attention enough. Form can help keep the attention of the listener. It's all about familiarity. We cling to what's familiar. That's why form works, for me at least. Randy Budnikas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Randy@isaac.biola.edu 8182 Glengarry Green *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES * 714-522-BITE Buena Park, CA 90621 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: RKilby127@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Computer Composition In a message dated 95-10-05 01:05:04 EDT, you write: >Please inform the list of ways you use to compose originals. Do you >utilize samplers, etc? Or perhaps a canary and a billiards table. > >Roger King >jollyroger@iquest.net Number one, for my personal music, I never write just to be writing. It's alway an expression, a reaction, an emotional response to something important to me. Why speak when you have nothing to say? Number two, I sing or whistle the parts before playing them, if I can. I try to make each instrument part of a "conversation" -- and I try to make sure they're not all talking at once. To use a painting analogy, I like to use white space to advantage. Meaning the notes you DON'T play are as important as the ones you DO. Silence is a powerful (and under-used) tool. One thing I do, when overdubbing the various parts alone, is play each part as a specific player I know would play it, in terms of expression. (i.e. play the sax part as Mike S. in Florida would do it, play the bass part as Jim back in Virginia would, etc.). And I always "sleep on it" -- just as the girls all get prettier at closing time, the music sounds so much better at 3am. But the next day it's always very different with fresh ears. Ronn Kilby San Diego ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:15:49 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: CGP@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted Thanks for the encouragement. My problem is that I don't read music and yet after playing my sequence of the Nutracker for several music professors, they basically called me a liar. I've been called a liar most of my life because of the depth with which I reproduce what I hear. Prior to sequencing, I didn't have much of a way of "proving" this to the world and demonstrating my analysis. Unlike playing an instrument, sequences allows one's mind to be the limiting factor rather than their physical abilities. CGP ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 13:33:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: New sequencer...Roland. Roland User Group magazine, volume 13 number 2, promotes a sequencer software package aimed at the midi guitar market: "Singer Song Writer GI." Has anyone given this a test drive, yet? They list features such as the following: fret window, 4 midi outs divide 48 tracks, an arrangement editor, 480 parts per quarter note clock resolution, tabulature notation display, and a visual guitar tuner. They also boast a delete short notes menu option, as well as a parameter shifter to accomodate pickup delay. My question to list contributors: How does this stack up to the most recent version of Power Chords Pro? Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Gus Alden Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry Randy said: >I hope to hear tons of other composers' methods. I'm very open to try new >>things. Let's keep this thread alive. I have no formal training in composition, so my approach is usually very intuitive. One technique I've fallen upon, since I acquired the use of a sequencer, is to take one melodic theme (or several), and to do everything I can think of to alter it (or add to it) with the sequencer. The various results of these alterations become the building blocks for my composition. Then I rely on sheer inspiration (or trial and error) to cement the blocks together. Such a method has gotten me away from the verse-chorus-bridge format, and into a space that seems to offer much more room for creative development. I wonder if such a method, or one similar to it, is ever used by any of the fine musicians of this forum. Gus Alden ------------ aldenoob@biddeford.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:00:15 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry Hi all, I use different techniques, different software, and different hardware, for my pieces. I will come back to a certain combo of tenhniques, software, and hardware for a given style if I find it easy to use and gives me results I like. But the main thing I always do is to hum everything. If it doesnt hum well, stacking up 12 synths on 192 midi channels, wont help any. I get a lot of ideas in dreams, and everyday sounds in the real world are always giving me ideas too. One of my favorite ideas getters when I lives in the High Sierras, was to do what Villa Lobos did and draw a melody outline based on what part of the mt range outside his home was visible on that day and not covered by clouds. Just about any shape can be used as a melody shape. Cars, peoples bodies, buildings, etc. Happy Composing. Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 11:10:38 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: Computer composition >thus, while composers may (ala Waller) play around looking for interesting >sounds, the way they actually compose (i.e. put things together) is >often unrelated to the search for sounds or expressions, but has its >own logic. This is certainly not true for all composers. This is true to classical music (Mozart), its predecessors (Bach's baroque & before), and what came immediately after (Beethoven's romantic-classicism). But you couldn't say the same thing about composers of high romanticism in music, nor of expressionism (Berg, Penderecki) and impressionism (Debussy, Ravel, Scriabin). >since there are no longer universal forms in use, that is the first decision >I make in composing. Oh yes there are. Composers use common-practice form *all the time*, and I would dare to say even more now than earlier in the century. >substantial pieces can be written almost as fast (or faster) than the time it >takes to copy them. What does speed have to do with it? Matthew Ross Davis HuskyLabs mozart@butterfly.net http://www.butterfly.net/husky ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 22:03:59 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Bostel Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry >Hi all, > I use different techniques, different software, and different >hardware, for my pieces. I will come back to a certain combo of >tenhniques, software, and hardware for a given style if I find it easy >to use and gives me results I like. > But the main thing I always do is to hum everything. If it doesnt >hum well, stacking up 12 synths on 192 midi channels, wont help any. > I get a lot of ideas in dreams, and everyday sounds in the real >world are always giving me ideas too. > One of my favorite ideas getters when I lives in the High Sierras, >was to do what Villa Lobos did and draw a melody outline based on what >part of the mt range outside his home was visible on that day and not >covered by clouds. > Just about any shape can be used as a melody shape. Cars, peoples >bodies, buildings, etc. > Happy Composing. > Timothy Kelly > MidiVox > >-- >MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. > >Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some >Drums, Sing a Cello. > >Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. > >AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." >Keyboard. > Timothy, Generally your responses are pretty ok...don't give up the day-job. Otherwise, deepest regards, MarkB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:29:44 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > We are not as used to Wagnerian forms which don't > do much recapitulating. I don't know of one person who doesn't yawn > at least once while listening to Wagner. He has some great ideas > awhile, but for the most part my mind starts to wander. When a section > repeats, it is familiar, and it brings my attention back. Wagner cannot be listened to as abstract music. without a fluent knowledge of german (or at least memorizing his librettos) no critique is meaningful. Wagner happened to define an entirley new musical world in which each note, chord, key , scale, tonality, etc. had a specific meaning. these meanings are only apparent in relation to his poetry. without the connection you have boring music or distracted poetry. most criticism of wagner suffers from being one-dimensional. no single dimension of his work functions in isolation, and all aspects need to be judged as a coherent whole in order to appreciate it. as for why form functions? meaning is a measure of the relations between things. form determines those relations at the most abstract level (indeed it determines all possible relations a priori). there can be no expression without a form to carry it. the choice of form therefore is the most important decision a composer makes. an example of this is in sonata form - the expected recapitulation can create a variety of meanings: intensification as in e.g. beethoven's fifth symphony, or collapse and despair as in something like mozart's minor key piano concertos. without the expectation of that event at that moment those expressive gestures are empty and self-indulgent at best, but in context they are profound and cosmological. mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 22:22:42 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: New sequencer...Roland. Hi, I read the article too in the RUG mag, and plan to get a copy of the software as long as not too many of the features are Roland midi guitar only. It doesn't appear to be trying to compete with Power Chords Pro, but it would be great to have something else guitar oriented besides The Jazz Guitarist. I use Power Chords Pro as my pattern sequencer and for writing many pieces in alternate tunings. I also enjoy creating instruments with odd numbers of strings, 7, 9, 11, etc. Happy Guitar Sequencing. Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 02:16:28 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted In-Reply-To: <951005141549_116920755@emout05.mail.aol.com> from "CGP@AOL.COM" at Oct 5, 95 02:15:49 pm > > Thanks for the encouragement. My problem is that I don't read music > and yet after playing my sequence of the Nutracker for several music > professors, they basically called me a liar. I've been called a liar most of > my life because of the depth with which I reproduce what I hear. I can't recommend too strongly that you learn standard notation! Given that you have a talent for transcription, you would do yourself a GREAT favor by being able to transcribe on paper. There are definitely jobs for people who can transcribe - it's said that this is the way Steve Vai got his job with Frank Zappa. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:39:07 PDT Reply-To: Merrill Sikorski Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Merrill Sikorski Subject: Can I hear you? Hi...I'm in Alaska, far from the mainstream music world. But, I am hoping that I can get closer with this cry to anyone out there....anyone home? I'm trying to get access to Afro-Latin percussion ideas. Thanks, Joyce the Voice ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:53:43 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > immediately after (Beethoven's romantic-classicism). But you couldn't say > the same thing about composers of high romanticism in music, nor of > expressionism (Berg, Penderecki) and impressionism (Debussy, Ravel, > Scriabin). actually this is not true, i can refer you to a couple of works "das geheimniss der form bei richard wagner" by lorenz (the secret of form in richard wagner) which is an exposition of the simple and straightforward formal procedures wagner uses in his work, and "debussy in proportion" by howat, a book which demonstrates the mathematical proportions in debussy's work and also demonstrates his source. Berg even more so, see for example the books by Perle which analyze his operas. Ravel is known for his neo classical usage of form and balance in his melodic lines. > >substantial pieces can be written almost as fast (or faster) than > the time it > >takes to copy them. > What does speed have to do with it? it means everything when you have a deadline and specific requirements to meet (i.e. 90 minutes worth of music in a month). unfortunately, this is often the way it works in professional circumstances. mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:38:53 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: Re: computer composit At 11:29 PM 10/5/95, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > We are not as used to Wagnerian forms which don't > > do much recapitulating. I don't know of one person who doesn't yawn > > at least once while listening to Wagner. Well, now you know one. >Wagner cannot be listened to as abstract music. > >most criticism of wagner suffers from being one-dimensional. no single >dimension of his work functions in isolation, and all aspects need to >be judged as a coherent whole in order to appreciate it. I couldn't agree more on this. >meaning is a measure of the relations between things. form determines >those relations at the most abstract level (indeed it determines all >possible relations a priori). there can be no expression without a >form to carry it. the choice of form therefore is the most important >decision a composer makes. I agree with this as well, but I will also say that the strictness of the form relys on the complexity of the other musical variables present. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:24:22 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted >> >> Thanks for the encouragement. My problem is that I don't read music >> and yet after playing my sequence of the Nutracker for several music >> professors, they basically called me a liar. I've been called a liar most of >> my life because of the depth with which I reproduce what I hear. > >I can't recommend too strongly that you learn standard notation! Given that >you have a talent for transcription, you would do yourself a GREAT favor >by being able to transcribe on paper. There are definitely jobs for people who >can transcribe - it's said that this is the way Steve Vai got his job with >Frank Zappa. > > --- Joe M. Surely Frank Zappa was as conversant with notation as anyone in rock, and wouldn't have needed anyone to transcribe solos for him. On the other hand, that is a time-consuming process, and I can see that he would have been glad to have someone do it for him. But Joe is right. The more ways you can get what's in your head into a form that others can see, the better off you are. I've gone from being a strictly pencil-and-paper composer to using the sequencer to "try things out". I'll sketch my initial ideas on paper, put that into the sequencer, make changes based on what I hear, write that down in my sketch books. Being able to visually see the music I've come up with helps me visualize the long-term structure of the piece in ways that wouldn't be possible if I only had an aural record to go on. So, then I write more music on paper, put it into the sequencer to try out, then add or subtract things based on what I hear. Then I write all of that down, and proceed from there. I've found that establishing a strong visual-aural connection between notation and sound has had the most liberating effect on my music making. This is going to sound like boasting, so let me apologize in advance, but when I hear music being played I can visualize the staves with the notes on them and from there it's a simple matter to write down what I see. Holding on to the image long enough to write it down is the main limiting factor. I suppose I'd have to move to L.A. or N.Y. to make all of this money that Joe says there is in transcribing, which is a definite bummer. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:15:34 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: CMWZX100@AOL.COM Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted Comments: To: Simon.Weatherill@coat.com In a message dated 95-10-04 10:14:50 EDT, Simon.Weatherill@COAT.COM writes: >Subj: CSN sequence wanted >Date: 95-10-04 10:14:50 EDT >From: Simon.Weatherill@COAT.COM >Sender: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU (Electronic Music Discussion List) >Reply-to: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU (Electronic Music Discussion List) >To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU (Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L) > >I'm looking for a sequence for the CSN song "Wasted On the Way". I >need it for a wedding I'm playing this weekend and I wouldn't be able >to get the sheet music for 2 weeks. It's such a tight harmony that I >can't figure it out myself. Help! > >Please respond to me directly as I am not on this list. > >Thanks a million, >Simon >At 10:51 AM 10/4/95 -0400, you wrote: > I haven't encountered harmonies so tight that I can't figure them >out. Maybe you could work on this skill to avoid future problems like this. > > CGP >Perhaps, smart-ass, however he would like to play in two weeks, and needs >assistance NOW. He's already tried to figure it out and is having trouble. >I am sure Simon will continue trying to work things out on his >own before asking for help. > > >BTW Simon, what is CSN, :) > >-john >JKRIKAWA@CCIT.Arizona.Edu I don't think he got your message! All of us are note as talented as others. Michael B. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: Re: CSN sequence wanted -Reply Obviously harmonic unravelling is a complex process. Each note in the phrase provides a combinatoric set of possible harmonizations which must be ruled out in order (explicitly or implicitly) to find the actual parts. Theoretically, if each voice has about two and a half octaves range, and we're talking twelve tone music, every note has (30)*(30)*(30)=27,000 possible harmonic combinations with three part harmony. Stylitic constraints drastically reduce this large set of possibilities by orders of magnitude. The more familiar you are with the particular stylistic limitations of the piece to be unravelled, the quicker you will unravel the harmonization. For non twelve tone music, the possibilities could be dramatically higher. Finding a store that sells party whistles is relatively easy in your home town, compared to finding one in some remote city like Bangkok because in your home town you know where not to look. Secondly, the individual parts must be discernable to the ear. Note duration must be of sufficient length to allow the ear to focus in an the pitch. Stacatto notes would be harder to unravel than legator notes. Thus, real fast thick harmonizations, like say Manhattan Transfer up tempo stuff may take longer than uncoding a slow gospel funeral hymn. Other influences are the relative loudness of each part, and of all the parts to other sounds in the mix. -rob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:30:52 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Miroslav Teker Subject: Samplitude-help Hi, I have a HDR program Samplitude Pro (for Windows) and unfortunately it's a German version of this program. My knowledge of German is very poor so it's a real pain for me to real the docs. Does anyone have the English version of the manual (that 418kB .WRI file)? If so, could you please send it to me? Thanks. Miro ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: Re: computer composition inquiry >>But I'm curious about the notion of defining musical >>space and then building in it. (As I write this, Marshall T's post >>already talks about it.) Specifically how does it work, or feel to work >>that way, with or without traditional models (AABB, sonata, >>verse-chorus-bridge)? > >Why does form work? Because we've been brought up in a culture of >sonata, verse-chorus-bridge, AABB forms. We tend to like what is >familiar. It's safe. We are not as used to Wagnerian forms which don't >do much recapitulating. I don't know of one person who doesn't yawn >at least once while listening to Wagner. As much as I love the music of Wagner, and as powerful an impression as his works leave overall I have to admit that every one of his operas contains enormous stretches of really tedious yawn-inducing music. The main reason for this is a certain lack of self-discipline. Being German would have already given him a predisposition for long-windedness. But being one of the most enormously egotistical bastards of all time left him with the feeling that every utterance he made was of profound significance and not to be edited out. He would have set Parsifal's need to go to the bathroom with the same earnestness as his search for redemption. Since Wagner would not avail himself of any sort of recitative, he could not get through the expository parts of his texts (i.e. the sections at the beginning of the operas where the characters have to explain the dramatic situation to the audience) in less than an hour. So that means for the first hour of any of his operas you're just sitting there waiting for something to happen. I tell you, it really takes a lot of stamina to get through one of those things, but a tribute to Wagner's genius that so many people nevertheless find it worth the effort. The music of Parsifal works on me like a drug, suspending all perception of time passing. As Gurnemanz says "You see, my son, here time becomes space". Nevertheless whenever I listen to Act I I generally skip from the prelude to Parsifal's entrance about 45 minutes later. We were talking about form. Wagner had a terrible sense of form. He just composed from one moment to the next, figuring his leitmotivs would provide the necessary coherence. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. To me form means organizing your thoughts so as to make the maximum impact in the least amount of time with the miminum of material. The standard forms (ABA, rondo, sonata, etc.) came about because they were shown to be effective in this regard. That doesn't mean a composer can't start from scratch and produce something just as satisfying. Within the standard forms, its often the way a composer deviates from the norm, or adheres to the norm in unexpected ways, that makes the music interesting. Basically what you've got to do is find a memorable idea and build upon it, varying it, slicing it, dicing it, trying to produce as much variety with it as possible while leaving its identity recognizable, and without wearing out its welcome. If you manage to do that then you've got a well structured piece. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ////////////////////////////// Question stupidity /////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:33:05 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: Re: computer composit -Reply >>most criticism of wagner suffers from being one-dimensional. no single dimension of his work functions in isolation, and all aspects need to be judged as a coherent whole in order to appreciate it. You just convinced me. On the other hand, this trend will increase as understanding of Wagner's culture and world becomes dimmer and dimmer. Rap music also suffers heavily from a cultural crutch. For those immersed in the culture, the experience is enhanced. Ultimately, this accelerates the descent into oblivion. -rob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:14:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Spamboy's "Jamming" technique Spamboy's reply of October 4, 1995 brought forth a sub-thread which could be infinitely studied: improvisational and spontaneous compostition. "I stumble across a good idea by just jamming away." - Randy Budnikas >From Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker entire schools of musical thought have been built around the "mistake." The "jammers" of the music world are the ones that get credited with new styles. Just turn on an alternative radio station and you'll hear the mp-fff velocity shift style of Curt Cobain being mimicked by a bunch of "new" bands. My next question to invite lateral thinking on this subject: Do you have a system in place that allows you to analyze the music spontaneously composed, in order that the "mistake" can become a theme for variation... or inevitably, a new *STYLE*? If so, please expand. Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:29:36 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: If Wagner had a sequencer >For the past year I have researched compsitional methods of >composers. Often I've wondered what the computer would >have meant to the great masters: what power 64 staves and >64 polyphony would have given Wagner in his efforts to please >the ears of his patron Prince Leopolt, i.e. First of all, the prince's name was Ludwig II, and second, Wagner would have never given a thought to pleasing him, nor anyone else. He expected it as his due that rich and powerful people would shower money on him, and the amazing thing is that they actually did, and continued to do so even after he treated them like shit. He seemed to make it a policy to screw around with the wives of his most powerful supporters. Prince Ludwig didn't have a wife (he was gay) so it wouldn't surprise me if Wagner screwed around with His Majesty himself. Anyway, if Wagner were writing emusic he would hardly settle for 64 staves, and certainly would never tolerate a mere 64 notes of polyphony. He would write to the Prince and complain that he could hardly be expected to produce his immortal works if he didn't have at least 10 K2000s, 100 VL1s, 50 Wavestations, and at least one of every other synth on the market, not to mention 20 ADATS, etc. If Wagner were around today he would steal samples from every major recording artist and then sue them for plagiarism. One thing that Wagner could have done with a sequencer: he himself admitted that he lacked the simple musical skills to transpose music from one key to another. Rather than repeat a musical passage in another key, he would have to recompose it entirely. He was inventive enough to make a virtue of this, and perhaps his music would have been poorer if he'd had the transposition features that sequencing and notation software offer. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ////////////////////////////// Question stupidity /////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:30:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Marshal Tuttle's form theory On October 5, 1995 Marshall Tuttle gave us something special: "...the expression of the elements within a given musical space will be determined by their relationship which is at the deepest levels defined by the space itself. Once the most abstract decisions are made it is progressively easier to make the decisions working down towards the level of note to note interaction to the point that substantial pieces can be written almost as fast (or faster) than the time it takes to copy them." Firstly, who on this list utilizes *TEMPLATES*? And, how do you systematize their use? Have they been of value to your overall work? Secondly, what works better, *PATTERN* or *LINEAR* sequencing? Liquid takes the shape of its container. The canvas on which the artist paints contains the entirety of the message. Marshall Tuttle changed the way I think before I play the first note! A marble statue cannot be chisseled until the stone is chosen. Etc. very cool. Who is the author of "The Compositional Process Of J.S. Bach?" This is one I won't be able to put down. :) Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:54:02 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Javier Galué Subject: Re: Requirement of information **Hi, I'm looking for a complete list of the servers of Mailing list about Audio Recording, Audio Equipment, Sound, MIDI, Recording Studios, etc., in order to sucscribe. May somebody help me to reach this list of servers???? Thank you in advance e-mail me to galue@ven.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:05:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: D.Crandall on architecture On October 5, 1995 David Crandall wrote: "We hear lots about 'virtual space' that is analogous to architecture these days, but this kind of space has already been explored by musicians over the last few hundred years." There is a physics book out called "HYPERSPACE." Music has always been man's proof that space-time exists. The organized movement of vibrations through space prooves existence. *I JAM THEREFORE I AM* :) But what would hyperspace offer the composer? Does Aerosmith sound the same in a wormhole? What would cubist music sound like? Pablo Picasso's art set to sound. Would his "blue period" works evoke the musical question... Robert Johnson? :) Sometimes I over-humanize a sequence and come up with Salvadore Dali: Melting clocks. :) A four dimensional instrument would be difficult to play, according to the book, "Hyperspace." You'd blow into the mouthpiece and the sound would come out through the sustain petal. :) Is four dimensional consonant, tonal, diatonic music possible? Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:43:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: expanding Robert M. Sanders Subject: expanding Robert M. Sanders On October 4, 1995, Robert M. Sanders contributed the following: "Finally, in the big scheme of things, for the vast expanse of human existence, music was an extemporized and shared, communal activity. The experience was self justified, and fleeting. Only recently has the emphasis on preplanning our sounds, mirroring the imposition of an artificial and sterile complexity on our culture, excluded most people from participating, and instilled a cancer-like quest for 'perfection.' Sometimes I prefer to watch a group of wild geese in motion than a marching band at half time- at least they are unencumbered by the banalities of our culture." - Robert M. Sanders The morning of October 5th, after reading this reply, I was driving down a rural road on the way to work in Indy. The seed corn had been harvested from a field on the passenger side of the dirt road. An entire flock of Canadian geese, hundreds of them, resting in the field, busily pecked the fallen corn. I stopped the car, got out the camera, and began marching step-by-step into the gathering. There was a red barn behind the field. I took two shots and marched back to the car. Robert's comment could be of value to the list as an entirely new string: How can a modern composer be heard and appreciated? Are there ways to enter a flock as a stranger and prevent potential fans of one's music from typical reactionary responses: i.e. "That sounds just like David Bowie." "Gee, I haven't heard any of your stuff on local stations at all?" "I'm not into computer music. New Age is wierd!" Please comment. In the old days, folks gathered around the piano to share the experience of music. There was no radio, video, or Nintendo. No $9 million Michael Jackson infomercial backed by the powers that be at CBS, desparate to salvage the damaged reputation of their cash cow. Thanks for this reply, Robert. Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:58:05 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: Re: computer composit -Reply >meaning is a measure of the relations between things. form determines >those relations at the most abstract level (indeed it determines all >possible relations a priori). there can be no expression without a >form to carry it. the choice of form therefore is the most important >decision a composer makes. For the moment separate the process of composing from the act of listening to the end product- the composition. Isn't it possible for the "form" to reside entirely in the dynamically self adapting ear of the listener? What about those dots on the cieling at night? Don't they naturally coelesce into images, even though they are randomly generated? The listener brings these pre-formed constructs and patterns to the experience of listening. He has a subconscious urge to detect these patterns in the sequence of sounds heard. The composer can intentionally invoke an intended emotional response within the audience by inverting the pattern-matching process and searching for a form which closely suggests the desired effect within the target audience. But this response may be culturally dependent. Is it possible for the composer to intentionally avoid and remove the culturally biased forms, say through stochastic compositional techniques? For a visual analogy, consider Rorschach ink blots. Now consider the impact of the compositional process itself on the act of listening to the composition. There is no fundamental linking. It makes no difference if the composition was supposedly created by a famous composer, a deaf composer, a second tier composer, an unknown composer, an algorithm, a collaborative effort by multiple composers, a collaborative effort between man and machine... what matters is how the composition is immediately perceived by the listener. -rob ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:19:40 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Matthew Ross Davis Subject: BeBox So has everyone seen the new BeBox? I think several people on this list would be interested in it... http://www.be.com/ Matthew Ross Davis HuskyLabs mozart@butterfly.net http://www.butterfly.net/husky ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:37:11 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Spamboy Subject: Re: Spamboy's "Jamming" technique In-Reply-To: >My next question to invite lateral thinking on this subject: >Do you have a system in place that allows you to analyze >the music spontaneously composed, in order that the >"mistake" can become a theme for variation... or inevitably, >a new *STYLE*? If so, please expand. I'm not exactly sure what your question is, but I think I know what you're asking. My system for catching the mistakes is letting my sequencer run. I record on track 1 for 2 to 10 minutes, and then I take the good mistakes from that track, turn off track 1, then record on track 2, jamming on the good mistakes from track 1. When a coherent theme or section is satisfying to me I'll record it on a separate track and set it aside for later, when I start worrying about form. Eventually I will have a final draft track which will have each idea in sequence. Then I paste that track into a completely new file, where I refer to it while making my final final sequence, with the separate instruments. It seems really messy, and it is, but rarely is an idea lost with this method. I hope this was interesting. It works for me, when I have the discipline to do it. Randy Budnikas * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Randy@isaac.biola.edu 8182 Glengarry Green *SPACE MONKEY ENTERPRISES * 714-522-BITE Buena Park, CA 90621 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * fax/modem:714-522-6323 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:30:41 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > At 11:29 PM 10/5/95, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > > We are not as used to Wagnerian forms which don't > > > do much recapitulating. I don't know of one person who doesn't > yawn > > > at least once while listening to Wagner. correction - I quoted. I did not write that, as I am an avid wagnerite and have sung some of his roles. > I agree with this as well, but I will also say that the strictness of the > form relys on the complexity of the other musical variables present. an interesting hypothesis, can you elaborate? I am not sure I exactly understand what you are getting at. mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:36:09 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Marshal tuttle's form > Who is the author of "The Compositional Process Of J.S. Bach?" > This is one I won't be able to put down. :) the author was I believe a fellow whose last name was Marshall (no relation). the book was published in the early 70's by Yale University Press i think???? It was extremely academic..... maybe not as exciting as you might think, but there is enough in it to suffer through the rest. mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:47:30 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > Isn't it possible for the "form" to reside entirely in the dynamically self > adapting ear of the listener? What about those dots on the cieling at > night? Don't they naturally coelesce into images, even though they > are randomly generated? people do what they know how to do - the will assign relationships in accordance with past learned practice. the concept of a "dynamically self adapting ear" is i think inconsistent with the great majority of human behavior. > Is it possible for the composer to intentionally avoid and remove the > culturally biased forms, say through stochastic compositional > techniques? For a visual analogy, consider Rorschach ink blots. xenakis claims to have done this in his book (i forget the name, something like formalized music). his name is not on everyone's tongue as it happens. this does not seem to be a successful strategy for popular composition. > Now consider the impact of the compositional process itself on the act of > listening to the composition. There is no fundamental linking. It > makes no difference...... > ... what matters is how > the composition is immediately perceived by the listener. if the listener attempts to assign meaning to a piece using the only tools he knows how and fails, is it any wonder that much experimental music evokes only rage and frustration? his time is being wasted. mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:52:59 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > We were talking about form. Wagner had a terrible sense of form. He just > composed from one moment to the next, figuring his leitmotivs would provide > the necessary coherence. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. really now, just because you don't get it doesn't mean it isn't there. Wagner's use of form is probably the most inspired in all of music next to mozart's, try analyzing the todesverkundigung scene (walkure act II scene V) for example. you really don't have to like it and you don't have to stay awake, but the level of criticism you are expressing here seems inconsistent with its object. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 14:37:48 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Harold C Cowherd Subject: Re: computer composit -Reply In-Reply-To: from "Robert M. Sanders" at Oct 6, 95 11:33:05 am > > >>most criticism of wagner suffers from being one-dimensional. no > single dimension of his work functions in isolation, and all aspects need > to be judged as a coherent whole in order to appreciate it. > > > You just convinced me. On the other hand, this trend will increase as > understanding of Wagner's culture and world becomes dimmer and > dimmer. Rap music also suffers heavily from a cultural crutch. For those > immersed in the culture, the experience is enhanced. Ultimately, this > accelerates the descent into oblivion. > > -rob Rob, I posit that any artistic utterance is culturally based. Hal-> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:09:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: the john cagers Comments: cc: peter_mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu Dear Peter: Previous opinion regarding algorhythmic composition: * When the composer controls the computer the result is composition. When the computer controls the composer it is castration. Having read through the Email you generously uploaded, and having beamed down Aleoritic Composer and Improvise from the Indiana U. FTP site I gained a new perspective: * There's a difference between castration and just rolling over to let her get on top for a spell! :) Here's what I learned from the reading material: 1. Algorhythmic composers get best results when they notate their expectations ahead of time. Like any computer programming, it has to be debugged in the notebook before you get to the keyboard. And all experiments need a hypothesis to test. 2. Prior knowledge of *both* algorithmics and consonance need to be "deep in the slab" of the composer's intellect. 3. It helps if the algorhythmic software is housed in a shell, offering edit features. The easier it is to tweak and tinker, the easier it is to achieve programming goals. Peter, thanks again for alerting me to algorhythmic composition, and for the list address of what Hoosiers call "The John Cagers." Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:09:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: modal horns Joshua Bell's fiddle lacks horns. I asked the local luthier why someone would make a fiddle without horns. He said the church considered the Strad design, with the horns, to be symbolic of evil. So, at one point in previous centuries, the church ordered hornless fiddles be made. My question to the list: What if the church had disallowed the use of minor chords in modal and/or unalterable compositions? Here is some data I jotted down that shows what might have been though never was... *IONIAN MATRIX* C d e F G a (b) CHORD/ Enharmonic/ Allowable?/ Spelling/ Non-modal notes/ C Am7(no a) Y* c e g n CM7 Am9(no a) Y* c e g b n CM9 Am11(no a) Y* c d e g b n CM11 - Y c d e f g b n CM13 Am11 NO! c d e g a b n F Dm7(no d) Y* f a c n FM7 Dm9(no d) Y* f a c e n FM9 Dm11(no d) Y* f g a c e n FM11 - NO! f g a Bb c e B flat FM13 Dm11 NO! f g a c Eb E flat G Em7(no e) Y* g b d n GM7 Em9 NO! g b d f# F sharp G7 - Y g b d f n GM9 Em11 NO! g a b d e f# F sharp G9 - Y g a b d f n GM11 - NO! g a b c d f# F sharp G11 - Y g a b d e f n GM13 Em11 NO! g a b d e f# F sharp G13 - Y g a b d e f n * Asterix indicates that the chord is allowable so long as the submediant (6th) of the mode is excluded from the BASS. In summary, the "legal" chords in C Ionian would consist of the following chords: C,CMAJ7, CMAJ9,CMAJ11, F, FMAJ7,FMAJ9, G, G7, G9, G11, and G13. The possible number of three chord combinations from these "Holy" chords would be 17280, if repeats were allowed. Is my math correct? Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:10:43 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > > You just convinced me. On the other hand, this trend will increase as > > understanding of Wagner's culture and world becomes dimmer and > > dimmer. Rap music also suffers heavily from a cultural crutch. For those > > immersed in the culture, the experience is enhanced. Ultimately, this > > accelerates the descent into oblivion. > > > > -rob > > Rob, > > I posit that any artistic utterance is culturally based. I would also add that there is a profound difference between what is being expressed in Wagner and in rap, at least in theory allowing for the possibility that something which deals with the interaction of fundamental human archetypes (Wagner) can potentially reach a much wider audience than something which deals with specific issues of a specific culture in a specific time period. though all utterances must be based in a language (culture), some sentences are more meaningful than others. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:38:49 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: modal horns Hi, Well, the church did classify intervals as being holy or unholy. I dont recall the century or how long it lasted. Anyway, thats part of what churchs do as they get involved in social and political issuses. Even Plato wrote a lot on how changes in music can change entire societies, even destroy them, or build them up. Time will tell how history judges our music of the 80's and 90's. Happy Sounds. Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 09:54:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: wagner's liszt Ever wonder how Wagner ended up with Franz Liszt's daughter? Here's a top ten list of the pick-up lines: 10..Hey, wanna shake hands with a "real" val-kee-ree? 9. Cos, can I buy you an ice cold Rhinegold? (see an old Mets fan if confused) 8. Have you tried the shnitzel? 7. Hey babe, what's your Zion? (Meyerbeer tought him that one) 6. As soon as my wife goes to the outhouse we can go for a walk. 5. I've not yet seen the palace stables, Cosima; how about a tour of the hay? 4. I saw your horseface from across the room and thought I'd ask you if you'd care to trot. 3. I haven't seen you since you were "this" big. My! Your nose has grown. 2. Have I got a German soldier for you! And, last but not least, the line thrown from the side of the rhythm section of every dive bar in Indy; and, yes, Wagner owned one: 1. Hey, tutz, wanna sit on my bass? Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:31:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: computer composit >I would also add that there is a profound difference between what is being >expressed in Wagner and in rap, at least in theory allowing for the >possibility that something which deals with the interaction of fundamental >human archetypes (Wagner) can potentially reach a much wider audience >than something which deals with specific issues of a specific culture >in a specific time period. In 1994 I began work on a rap opera based on the sociology non-fiction book: "Crack House" Some of the characters in "Crack House" fit opera. I ran up against the fatal Andrew Lloyd Weber flaw of merely parading the characters out, one by one, and have them sing a character song. (sound like 'Cats' ?) I recorded two songs from the first act; one of which, "Mist Take," came out worthy of a wink. ;) The book, being a sociological masterpiece, does not really have a story-type plot. Just these sad characters awaiting their next hit of "scottie." While the book talked about "Master Blaster" having anal sex in the bathroom of the crack house, an opera could only hint at shocking subjects: this would reduce the shock factor one gets from the book. The case, so utterly hopeless, lacks any kind of fairy tale ending which usually endears the American audience to a musical work. Would anyone care to offer libretto suggestions for "Crack House" or be interested in a colaboration? Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 13:06:48 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > Would anyone care to offer libretto suggestions for "Crack House" > or be interested in a colaboration? are you looking for someone to write a libretto for you? a good beginning point would be to study the position of a)opera in the history of culture, and b) libretti in opera. a) musical drama arose long before narrative drama, and it's symbols are not those of the times. Joseph Campbell refers to some of this in The Masks of God. If you can refashion the symbols of the book into a more useful theme you can approach the level of expression music makes successfully. b)the book Literature as Opera by Schmidgall is informative in its relation of texts to musical style and expression. highly recommended for someone who wants to do opera. ultimately what makes opera opera is the fact that the drama is somehow encoded in the music, not merely in the words. there has to be some structural analog between progress of musical ideas and dramatic development. one of the best examples is actI scene 3 of Walkure: in this scene Siegmund frees Sieglinde from a forced marriage. For the whole second half of the scene sieglinde sings stories of her youth and constantly gets stuck on Dominant pedal harmonies which Siegmund releases with one phrase of music - thus providing a musical foretaste for the release we are about to see take place on stage in some minutes. If you can get your music to match the literature at that level you will be successful. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:14:00 BST-1 Reply-To: gsink@cix.compulink.co.uk Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: G Sinker Subject: Re: Requirement of information In-Reply-To: <199510061754.NAA06461@sucre.ven.net> If someone has a list like this would it be possible to mail it for everyone? Regards Geoff Sinker gsink@cix.compulink.co.uk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:33:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: modal horns Timothy Kelly wrote: > Well, the church did classify intervals as being holy or unholy. Didn't Fux' Counterpoint say something about augmented fourths? That was the 17th century wasn't it? All of those old books seem to outlaw everything except the octave, the major or minor third, and the major or minor sixth. There is a little parperback containing Beethoven's thoughts as he wrote them in his conversations with the hearing. In it, there's one little thing about counterpoint. Instead of going into some long drawn-out list of what can't be done, Beethoven just says that 8ths, 3rds, and 6ths are ok in every circumstance. Next: In Rimski-Korsakov's "Principles of Orchestration," the late great author draws out these beautiful charts of various departments of the orchestra playing which intervals? You guessed it! 3rds 6ths & 8ths: Here is a brief example of a Rimski-Korsakov chart: "winds playing in octaves; and 3rds & 6ths 8 Flute Flute Flute Oboe Oboe Clarinet Oboe Clar. Fg. Clar. Fg. Fg. 3rds Flute Flute Oboe Clar. Oboe 6ths Oboe Clar. Clar. Fg. fg." - Rimski-Korsakov "Principles of Orchestration" I'm not saying that fourths can't be fun, too. Rock and roll, once called "the devil's music," has brought fourths into the popular orchestration and counterpuntal mainstream. As a synthesist, though, I tend to layer pads and voices using the Rimski-Korsakov rules of thumb. It helps clarify the melody. Please repsond with more thoughts on this and maybe we'll discover and develop something outrageous and revolutionary. Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:33:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: computer composit Comments: cc: marshall.tuttle@TORII.COM Marshall Tuttle said the following: " If you can refashion the symbols of the book into a more useful theme you can approach the level of expression music makes successfully. the drama is somehow encoded in the music, not merely in the words. there has to be some structural analog between progress of musical ideas and dramatic development. If you can get your music to match the literature at that level you will be successful." M.T.: May I ask you this... Given: Five addicts sitting around a make-shift "coffee" table. The former door to the bathroom comprises the table's top. The glass pipe, an actual character in the libretto named "Scottie," stands at the center of the table top. The pipe is empty. The addicts collectively must face both their jones and the reality of having to go out on the street and compromise their selves in various capacities in order to aquire more crack. Holding up the table top are two boom boxes: each tuned to the same station. Scotty begins to sing to the ears of the addicts. Telling them he needs to be refilled. Marshal, according to what you have just taught me: the music should be telling the story, too: A circle of fifths center around the tonic. The rhythm pounds hypnotically.(naturally) The bathroom door becomes a flush of flatted horns. Add the fog horn from "Long Days Jouney Into Night"... A tuba plays four beats of dominant followed by 4 beats of tonic. A moral sense of immoral obligation could be synthesized utilizing an algorithmic overlay of both the tonic and dominant chords: and, the resulting overlay, becoming consonant through arpeggiation, would be played by the bass as a booming loop. Thus, the symbolic foundation of the moral predicaments of crack addiction could be musically realized. The compromise of the self in order to achieve intrinsic gratification. Next question: Should characters sing or rap? The 1994 songs had Kool & The Gang and Prince influences: The males singing most times falsetto, and at other times mumble scatting. And also: How can the music symbolize the plot if there is not much action in the dramatic plot? The symbolism I scribbled above is theme based to a greater extent. Eventually, one of the characters stands up and does what Scottie wants: "get the cash, get the crack, come on back get the cash, get the crack, come on back, Put the little girl in the red Cadillac, get the cash, get the crack, come on back." Master Blaster: "it's time, this time, gotta pull off a crime, Gotta shine for the dime, go burn another line, Find a nasty sucker and sell him somethin' fine," Scottie: "Get the cash, get the crack, come on back." The "green" key (isn't it G major?) could symbolize the GO command. Though the key of B sounds like "silver" and may be useful to symbolize betrayal for money: i.e. the thirty-nine pieces of silver which tempted Judas to deliver Christ to the Romans. Roger King jollyroger@iquest.net swashbuckler of cybersonics ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:00:16 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: EASE OF OVERUSE, ETC.... In-Reply-To: <01HVTB47URDU8WX86W@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> from "John Krikawa" at Sep 28, 95 03:07:03 pm John Krikawa writes-- > >Ah, but keep it up. . .keeps the sightseers outta here. Weren't >you all pleasantly surprised that EMUSIC-L was ommitted from >EM's Oct 95 roundup of 'cool' music lists? SYNTH-L was included, >however. I wasn't surprised at all. It was done at our request. What I am also not surprised about, albeit quite disappointed, is that Joe's and my extensive interview comments on Netiquette and control of useless bandwidth were essentially thrown away before publication. I'm trying to decide if it's worth a letter to the Editor of EM on the subject. mike -- choose your friends carefully-- your enemies will choose themselves for you ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com = http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:04:19 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: More Wagner (skip if not interested) > > We were talking about form. Wagner had a terrible sense of form. He just > > composed from one moment to the next, figuring his leitmotivs would provide > > the necessary coherence. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. > >really now, just because you don't get it doesn't mean it isn't there. >Wagner's use of form is probably the most inspired in all of music next >to mozart's, try analyzing the todesverkundigung scene (walkure act II >scene V) for example. I believe I do get it completely, and in fact I count myself as a great admirer of Wagner. I might have said rather that Wagner must have had a tremendous sense of form in that his music works so well in spite of the fact that he never seemed to have bothered his head much about form. Here's an example: Amfortas' lament in Act I of Parsifal. Amfortas is telling us about what an unbearable burden to preside over the Holy Grail with the guilt of his sins and the unhealing wound that is the result of them. It begins, after a musical puncutation, with a strong tutti, announcing what should be the main theme of his lament. The first thing Amfortas sings is a repetition of this theme. He then goes on to sing about the wound, the Grail, etc. and all the motives associated with these things are brought back. The theme, though, is completely forgotten. Not even once does he even refer to it. This theme, which should have set off the lament from the rest of the music surrounding it, thus establishing the identity of this moment in the scheme of the whole work, completely slips out of Wagner's mind. Had he been planning the music in structural terms he would have made sure to do something with it, even if only to bring it back at the end. General principle of form: If you want to make a stretch of music distinctive (for instance so that you can refer back to it later) you have to build it around something that is present nowhere else in the music. This can be a theme, texture, patch, sample (see, emusic content requirement satisfied). OK, you say, but Wagner wasn't interested in writing arias, he had no use for set pieces, etc. True, but in the third Act when Parsifal returns and Gurnemanz asks him whom he's seeking the music suddenly launches into this theme from Amfortas' lament. It was clearly Wagner's intention that the audience should immediately go "aha! He remembers Amfortas' pain and has come to set matters straight!" But since Wagner had only touched upon that theme once and that was at least a couple hours previously, the intended impact falls flat. Needless to say, Parsifal has a wealth of moments which don't fall flat. This is one of my very favorite pieces of music, so there. My sincere apologies to emusic people for taking up so much bandwidth on a subject that really belongs on another liszt. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ////////////////////////////// Question stupidity /////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:15:43 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: The crack opera > >May I ask you this... >Given: >Five addicts sitting around a make-shift "coffee" table. >The former door to the bathroom comprises the table's top. >The glass pipe, an actual character in the libretto named >"Scottie," stands at the center of the table top. > >The pipe is empty. The addicts collectively must face >both their jones and the reality of having to go out on >the street and compromise their selves in various capacities >in order to aquire more crack. > >Holding up the table top are two boom boxes: each tuned to >the same station. Scotty begins to sing to the ears of the >addicts. Telling them he needs to be refilled. > > >How can the music symbolize the plot if there is not >much action in the dramatic plot? Now here's where you need to study Wagner, who specialized in plot without action. Wagner would have created a "Scotty" motive and a "crack" motive. The motives would have been constructed to combine contrapuntally, and each motive would sound incomplete without the other. There would be another leitmotiv for the great hero who would redeem Mankind by bringing in the Sacred Substance. There would be another leitmotiv for the Woman whose love caused the Hero to renounce his desire to smoke all the crack himself. There would be yet another leitmotiv for the police officer who busts the hero just as he's about to return with the Sacred Crack [end of Act I]. The title would be "The Dawn of Crack" (Die Crackerdammerung) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu ////////////////////////////// Question stupidity /////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:17:42 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Crandall Subject: Re: EASE OF OVERUSE, ETC.... In-Reply-To: <199510091700.KAA21645@netcom23.netcom.com> On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: ... > extensive interview comments on Netiquette and control of useless > bandwidth were essentially thrown away before publication. I'm trying > to decide if it's worth a letter to the Editor of EM on the subject. Judging from recent spamosity (spamaciousness?) of this group, I'd say -- Yup. ... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 18:36:44 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "L Mccoy (GD 1999)" Subject: composition Although the choice of form is significant for a composer, it is just as significant a choice for a listener. And these may not match. At all. What intrigues me about this discussion of form is the various ways in which it is defined. It is possible to view it as a bucket to be filled with musical materials that, when stirred around and mixed in the right proportion, result in (poof!) a sonata. And, it is just as possible that materials might dictate their own form. This is an interesting thread! Scott McCoy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:27:36 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Susan Siegfried Subject: RESEARCH AGENDA FOR CULTURAL HERITAGE ON INFORMATION NETWORKS RESEARCH AGENDA FOR CULTURAL HERITAGE ON INFORMATION NETWORKS REQUEST FOR COMMENT In a network environment increasingly driven by commercial interests, what is the future of cultural information? How can members of the cultural sector work together to define its technical needs and mobilize to be heard? Your participation is needed to help build consensus on a research agenda that enhances access to cultural heritage information in electronic form. In a community-based effort sponsored by the Getty Art History Information Program (AHIP), experts in information science and the humanities have drafted papers on the critical technical challenges posed by humanities and arts information in the following research domains: Tools for Creating and Exploiting Content Knowledge Representation Resource Search and Discovery Conversion of Traditional Data Formats into Digital Media Image and Multimedia Retrieval Learning and Teaching Archiving and Authenticity New Social and Economic Mechanisms to Encourage Access We invite you to comment on the papers by responding to the issues they raise and by proposing other topics relevant to the domain areas. An Overview and Discussion Points are provided for your convenience. The open electronic discussion runs from October 2 to November 2, 1995, moderated by David Bearman. Your response will enable us to take diverse perspectives into account before publishing a summary of the Research Agenda papers in 1996. You can participate via the World Wide Web by pointing your browser to the following location: http://www.ahip.getty.edu/agenda/home.html You can participate by electronic mail by subscribing to the discussion list. Send an e-mail message to "majordomo@ahip.getty.edu" with the following text in the message area (leave the "Subject:" line blank): subscribe agenda your_e-mail_address for example: subscribe agenda ssiegfried@getty.edu When you subscribe you will receive instructions on downloading the Research Agenda papers and participating in the discussion. Thank you for your interest in the Research Agenda for Cultural Heritage on Information Networks. We look forward to your participation. Sincerely, Susan Siegfried Research Projects Manager Getty Art History Information Program ssiegfried@getty.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 10:31:10 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: clive@PELICAN.DBE.CSIRO.AU Subject: Re: More Wagner (skip if not interested) > >My sincere apologies to emusic people for taking up so much bandwidth on a >subject that really belongs on another liszt. > No need to apologise to me, at least. The concepts discussed in this series of threads are as relevant to emusic as they are to other musical forms. It is a pleasure to hear them so clearly articulated. Keep it up guys: I suspect we are all Brothers in Brahms. Regards Clive Clive McFarland CSIRO Australia clive@pelican.dbe.csiro.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:27:11 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: computer composit > The "green" key (isn't it G major?) could symbolize > the GO command. Though the key of B sounds like "silver" > and may be useful to symbolize betrayal for money: i.e. the > thirty-nine pieces of silver which tempted Judas to > deliver Christ to the Romans. i don't know about green, wagner uses Ab in Parsifal and says the opera is the color green.. G is usually used for mothering, birth, feminine nurturing b minor is usually used for double crossing B major more for sexual ecstasy as to the rest, I will answer you privately when I have some time to sit and consider everything. so far all I see on a superficial scanning of your material is a static situation, you have ideas about motives for respresenting certain fixed thoughts, ideas or actions, but not reason for those motives to interact and develop into anything. more later, sounds like a powerful image, but a little static. mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:42:06 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: modal horns > Didn't Fux' Counterpoint say something about augmented fourths? > That was the 17th century wasn't it? > > All of those old books seem to outlaw everything except the octave, > the major or minor third, and the major or minor sixth. I think you may be missing the point.... 3rds 6ths and octaves may be used more or less without restriction (except for parallel octaves), but that is not what characterizes most music of this period. the other intervals may be used (and in fact are used) as much or more that 3, 6, 8 - they merely require something specific to follow. thus, a 7th is usually followed by the upper voice moving down a step (whole or half depending on the key). it is this necessity for resolution that drives the music forward and gives it energy. the 3, 6, and 8 do not have this need for something to follow, so they are less effective in sustaining forward motion. Bach, in fact, regularly works tone clusters into his organ fugues (such A-B-C all sounding at once). mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 9 Oct 1995 22:04:56 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Bostel Subject: Re: RESEARCH AGENDA FOR CULTURAL HERITAGE ON INFORMATION You write: > NETWORKS > >RESEARCH AGENDA FOR CULTURAL HERITAGE ON INFORMATION >NETWORKS > >REQUEST FOR COMMENT > >In a network environment increasingly driven by commercial interests, >what is the future of cultural information? > >How can members of the cultural sector work together to define its >technical needs and mobilize to be heard? > > >Your participation is needed to help build consensus on a research >agenda that enhances access to cultural heritage information in >electronic form. In a community-based effort sponsored by the Getty Art >History Information Program (AHIP), experts in information science and >the humanities have drafted papers on the critical technical challenges >posed by humanities and arts information in the following research >domains: > > Tools for Creating and Exploiting Content > Knowledge Representation > Resource Search and Discovery > Conversion of Traditional Data Formats into Digital Media > Image and Multimedia Retrieval > Learning and Teaching > Archiving and Authenticity > New Social and Economic Mechanisms to Encourage Access > >We invite you to comment on the papers by responding to the issues >they raise and by proposing other topics relevant to the domain areas. >An Overview and Discussion Points are provided for your convenience. >The open electronic discussion runs from October 2 to November 2, >1995, moderated by David Bearman. Your response will enable us to >take diverse perspectives into account before publishing a summary of >the Research Agenda papers in 1996. > >You can participate via the World Wide Web by pointing your browser to >the following location: > > http://www.ahip.getty.edu/agenda/home.html > >You can participate by electronic mail by subscribing to the discussion >list. Send an e-mail message to "majordomo@ahip.getty.edu" with the >following text in the message area (leave the "Subject:" line blank): > > subscribe agenda your_e-mail_address > >for example: > > subscribe agenda ssiegfried@getty.edu > > >When you subscribe you will receive instructions on downloading the >Research Agenda papers and participating in the discussion. > >Thank you for your interest in the Research Agenda for Cultural Heritage >on Information Networks. We look forward to your participation. > >Sincerely, > >Susan Siegfried >Research Projects Manager >Getty Art History Information Program >ssiegfried@getty.edu > I fail to see what value or relevance this 'announcement' has to this list. MarkB