========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 16:06:15 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Gus Alden Subject: Art/Music/Power Allow me a few moments of your time, I'm reminded of a debate I had a few months ago with Marshall Tuttle (where are you Marshall?). I had asked where electronic music's 'Ludwig Van Beethoven' is hiding. Marshall's response was that a culture in a state of devolution, as our's is, cannot produce a master. His thesis was that a master must have an audience, and that the master and his audience must have a common language. A society increasingly centered on self-gratification, was his argument, would have no ability to recognize mastery, and thus be unable to produce it. I theorized that amidst the moral decay, a new culture yet unrecognized could well be in it's birth stages. He rejected the notion, and asked me to leave elements of faith out of the argument. I then proposed that even with no popular recognition a master could still produce great art, and that the value of one's work should not be based on popular consensus. His retort was that a master producing great art without an audience was doing little more than masturbating. Oh yah... This remark got me thinking hard. My own outlook on the future, mine included, tends to swing, sometimes several times a day, from faithfully optimistic to downright despairingly pessimistic. I agree with Marshall, that as long as society continues it's downward spiral, that the arts will reflect that, and continue to cater to the lowest denominator. Then again, should resurrection (on a grand scale) ever occur, then great possibilities for a new cultural renaissance do exist. The masses will once again seek for that which is beautiful.......beauty being, as I understand it, that which alerts, stimulates....yes, challenges one to be a more thoughtful, loving, creative, and giving individual. A friend recently asked me what I think it is about popular music that attracts the masses. Well, Beethoven's music was the popular music of his time. Where are we today? The Smashing Pumpkins... hey, I like it, but is it music that anyone will give a shit about 20 years from now? I guess, that what's popular depends on the audience you're playing to. However, I submit that there is one common thread in all popular music. The one thing that can be found in every popular genre, whatever the age, is 'intensity, for lack of a better word. (Intensity being an element that the music of Beethoven and that of the Smashing Pumpkins do share.) Power. There is an essential power in all great art...a power to move the heart, and awaken the soul within. The power to allow one to see things in a new light. Not only does popular music reflect the culture that creates it, but it also has the power to transform it. (For example, who WAS more popular...Jesus or the Beatles? ...and which entity has had the stronger influence on contemporary culture...Jesus or the Beatles?) Again, why I believe music...and art...should be an essential part of the curriculum in the education system. With a refined education, the human heart can be taught to respond to beauty...and create it. Without it, the heart may be prone to respond to whatever trash is thrown it's way. Thrash Rock...Cop Rap...Punk Rock...Puke Rock... OK, so this is what is speaking to a lot of people these days, so the master better take a good hard look at it, get into it, and learn from it... However, I believe that were love (True Love) to be introduced into the education system (on a broad scale), that music (and all forms of art) could & would be a powerful tool for capturing the imagination of young minds, and inspiring towards a more positive kind of vibration. Restoring essential values to the education system, art & music being ideal vehicles for learning them, would be one major step towards creating a culture that is truely an expression of intrinsic beauty. Will this happen in our lifetime? I have no idea. My faith in government or religion's power to invoke positive change still flickers, but barely. Nor do I see anything else on the horizon powerful enough to prevent total collapse. I do tend to be quite sceptical of our future...tempered somewhat by my observation that beyond the 'valley of death's shadows' lie mountains. I do hope. I have no ambition to spend my life masturbating. I will do what I can to reach out with what I have to reach out with. If my music inspires even one miserable lonely wretch to be reminded that in the essence of life experience, there is love...that there is magic, well...I figure...I've accomplished something...more than nothing... What are your thoughts, I wonder... Gus Alden ~~~~~~~~~~~~ aldenoob@biddeford.com "Isn't life wonderful......................Yes, life is wonderful." Gus Alden ~~~~~~~~~~~~ aldenoob@biddeford.com "Isn't life wonderful......................Yes, life is wonderful." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 16:26:01 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: SKing7430@AOL.COM Subject: happy thanks happy thanksgivin' y'all! JollyRoger ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 14:15:03 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: New List Addresses for Xpander and Prophet VS Mailing Lists Comments: To: SYNTH-L , Analogue Heaven Mailing List , Electronica List , Xpansions Mailing List , Vectory Mailing List This announcement is being sent to several mailing lists and newsgroups relating to electronic music on the Internet; our apologies in advance for any duplications you may see. Xpansions and Vectory, the mailing lists devoted to discussion of the Oberheim Xpander and Sequential Prophet VS, have moved once again, this time hopefully to a permanent home. The new addresses are: xpansions@synthcom.com and vectory@synthcom.com Those addresses are for actually posting to the lists. Requests for subscriptions sent to those addresses will not be processed, and will only detract from the signal-to-noise ratio of the discussions. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send email to: xpansions-request@synthcom.com and/or vectory-request@synthcom.com The subject line doesn't matter, but the word 'subscribe' or 'unsubscribe' should be in the body of the message, so that your intent is clear. Please be polite when you send these messages and include a nice 'hello'; while we hope to have proper Majordomo admin support for automatic list control in place soon, for now your requests are being processed by a real person. His name is Neil. Hi, Neil. :) The old address at netcom.com is forwarding to the proper places already, but Webcom, whose idiocy forced this second move in the first place, is being very slow at setting up a forwarding address there, so we're in the unenviable position of having a really old address that forwards to the right place and a fairly new address that doesn't. :-P Please do your best to update your aliases and stop mailing to either Netcom or Webcom...those aliases will be gone by the end of 1995 anyway. People who maintain FAQs and lists of lists should make the appropriate changes. Note that by consensus of the readership, the two lists are very tightly focused, even at the cost of light traffic. Xpansions only discusses the Xpander and Matrix-12; other Oberheim analog synths are handled by Analogue Heaven (analogue@hyperreal.com). Vectory only discusses the Prophet VS; the Korg Wavestations are handled by the WS Mailing List (wavestation@astral.magic.ca). Also please note that these lists are maintained for quick dissemination of information to owners even in times of very low traffic, and are often quiet for long periods; it is not safe to assume that a lack of mail there means that the lists are broken. My thanks to Neil Bradley and Mark Pulver for their parts in helping the transition to the new sites. And my thanks to you all for listening. Your Vectorious Xpatriot, mike -- Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 21:49:13 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Harley Jacoubsen Subject: Studio Session to midi? Is there a succesor to Studio Session for the Mac? What can I do with my old Studio Session songs? System 7.5 (or my new mac) doesn't support the Studio Session program. Can I somehow convert at least the notes (not necessarily the instruments) to Quicktime or MIDI files? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 22:34:43 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Art/music/power > I'm reminded of a debate I had a few months ago with Marshall Tuttle > (where are you Marshall?). I had asked where electronic music's .... my hard drive crashed so i was incommunicado for a while you have quoted me, though somehow it seems darker when i hear someone else saying it. i would suggest that the "greatness" in today's music is entirely synchronous whereas the greatness in mozart and beethoven was both synchronous and diachronous - i.e. elvis appealed to his generation. beethoven appealed to his and to succeeding generations. this is a profound difference and it is difficult to characterize the trends that led to it. one thing that should be noted is that the Viennese court chose from very early (renaissance times) to patronize music and make it an expression of their nobility. thus they fostered and attracted great composers through the ages and built a society where musical discourse was possible at a high level. the pop music culture would not be profitable if it took such a stance. musical discourse is not currently available to any significant extent. how much music is being written today that can actually be listened to for any extended period of time without attached words to distract from the same old formal procedures and chord progressions? instrumental music is currently mostly background music, elevator music, dance music but certainly is not capable of symbolizing or discoursing on much beneath the surface of daily emotional meanderings. > should not be based on popular consensus. His retort was that a master > producing great art without an audience was doing little more than > masturbating...... > This remark got me thinking hard. (i hope that pun was not intended) a student once asked me how to produce a great piece of music to which i responded create a universe and suck people into it. (i have no idea where that came from but it seems to work for performers too). the first step of course is to be convinced yourself of what you are doing, the second is to lose yourself in it so much that people follow you. nowhere is there a step which says "make sure it is great". greatness is basically a statistical measure of breadth AND depth AND duration of effect. if the piece has not swallowed its creator it is not likely to swallow anyone else. i suggest that it is not so much beauty but truth that creates greatness. examples abound of greatness which is ugliness incarnate. it is the role of the artist to heal the wounds created by the process of socialization which cripples us all. the artist expresses those truths for us that we are not allowed to express in our daily lives. mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 00:03:51 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Crowl Subject: Re: good sounds In-Reply-To: <199511221540.RAA23855@actcom.co.il> On Wed, 22 Nov 1995, Uri Bruck wrote: > >> i like sounds that get up your nose. > >> > >do you often listen naselly ? > > > This is begining to get nosetalgic > Uri > Yep, time to get back to the ol' factory. -------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Crowl 08/15/69 10:58am 88w09 41n51 V/M (206)726-2591 E/M "SHITCAN@ESKIMO.COM" "The Scientist, like the Artist, is constantly faced with the problem: 'How do you organize and comprehend the World?'" (EINSTEIN SPACE & VAN GOGH SKY, by Leshan and Margenau) -------------------------------------------------------------- When it's sunny, go out and play in the Sun. When it's rainy, go out and play in the Rain. When it's snowy, go out and play in the Snow. And when the World ends, baby, it's time to GO. ;) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 04:06:38 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Sean Wolfe Subject: Re: Art/Music/Power Gus Alden Wrote: >I'm reminded of a debate I had a few months ago with Marshall Tuttle (where >are you Marshall?). I had asked where electronic music's 'Ludwig Van >Beethoven' is hiding. Marshall's response was that a culture in a state of >devolution, as our's is, cannot produce a master. His thesis was that a >master must have an audience, and that the master and his audience must >have a common language. A society increasingly centered on >self-gratification, was his argument, would have no ability to recognize >mastery, and thus be unable to produce it. I theorized that amidst the >moral decay, a new culture yet unrecognized could well be in it's birth >stages. He rejected the notion, and asked me to leave elements of faith out >of the argument. I then proposed that even with no popular recognition a >master could still produce great art, and that the value of one's work >should not be based on popular consensus. His retort was that a master >producing great art without an audience was doing little more than >masturbating. It's great to finally see some people that are thinking about things the way I do.... In my recent expreiences with music and feeling...... Two things have really gotten to my soul.... Where my music resides.... I heard an Interview with Brian Eno recently... And he spoke about now is a time when people that aren't musically proficient in an insturment, are able to write and produce music.... The technicians are able to create songs and scores without having to take a single lesson in music theory or any insturment... Only the want to make music is needed.... He also spoke about how people that aren't "proficient" tend to b a bit more creative or experimental... because they rely more on how things sound rather than thinking in terms of keys, tempos, chords, etc.... This showed me that anyone who has music in their heart.... and listens carefully to what music is saying.... can acomplish great works of art/song.... And this letter.... This letter came at a time where some of these instances mentioned here are greatly affecting my life currently.... > >Oh yah... >Then again, should resurrection (on a grand scale) ever occur, then great >possibilities for a new cultural renaissance do exist. The masses will once >again seek for that which is beautiful.......beauty being, as I understand >it, that which alerts, stimulates....yes, challenges one to be a more >thoughtful, loving, creative, and giving individual. I believe it's happening right now.... Every day I find more people who are becoming open minded to such forms of art/music.... I introduce many people to my world that is surrounded by so many art forms (electronic and experimental music, printed art such as paintings, drawings, and photographs, but also including such forms of pop culure such as Movies, comics and magazines). And suprisingly they take pretty well to it..... There is also a huge army of resurfacing artists that tend not take from one's style.... but create one of thier own from their many influences...... I find it harder everday to classify or categorize individual pieces of work..... Which I think is a good thing.... the more we steer away from are art falling into preset categories, the more we start to explore what is out there and what hasn't been accomplished..... I just believe that people have to start LISTENING to what they hear, not just with thier ears, but with thier heart as well...... We may start seeing a new reniassance.... >submit that there is one common thread in all popular music. The one thing >that can be found in every popular genre, whatever the age, is 'intensity, >for lack of a better word. (Intensity being an element that the music of >Beethoven and that of the Smashing Pumpkins do share.) > >Power. > >There is an essential power in all great art...a power to move the heart, >and awaken the soul within. The power to allow one to see things in a new >light. When one's art moves a soul... I creates a permanent place in their heart... It may even change thier entire lifestyle.... When you hear a certain song, and it makes you always feel a certain way or it brings a certain memory to you head..... the artist did his job..... He made an imprint in your heart.... that is what art can do..... >However, I believe that were love (True Love) to be introduced into the >education system (on a broad scale), that music (and all forms of art) >could & would be a powerful tool for capturing the imagination of young >minds, and inspiring towards a more positive kind of vibration. Restoring >essential values to the education system, art & music being ideal vehicles >for learning them, would be one major step towards creating a culture that >is truely an expression of intrinsic beauty. > >Will this happen in our lifetime? I have no idea. My faith in government >or religion's power to invoke positive change still flickers, but barely. >Nor do I see anything else on the horizon powerful enough to prevent total >collapse. I >do tend to be quite sceptical of our future...tempered somewhat by my >observation that beyond the 'valley of death's shadows' lie mountains. > >I do hope. I hope too..... With our education systems declining and becoming.... less and less funded.... they tend to cut harder on the arts and focus more on disipline..... I tend to find that this just worsens the situation.... I creates an environment where our emotions are repressed and we never leard to express ourselves freely.... in which violence, and deliquency just worsens.... Adding disipline and removing education (real edutcation) you just create a prison, or warzone...... >I have no ambition to spend my life masturbating. I will do what I can to >reach out with what I have to reach out with. > >If my music inspires even one miserable lonely wretch to be reminded that >in the essence of life experience, there is love...that there is magic, >well...I >figure...I've accomplished something...more than nothing... I have always come to doubts with my art and music.... I often wonder if it will ever be recognized..... If it will ever be seen as the careful work and labour of our hearts and souls..... But then when you find that it has meaning to just one person.... just one... that it inspires them to live and love..... You realized your work is not just for nothing...... And that's what matters... all you need is that one person to keep you going..... You don't need a throng of obsessive fans at your feet to feel you have acomplished something...... >What are your thoughts, I wonder... I hope my thoughts reach you as much as this original letter did... | __ Give Anything... \ / Expect Nothing... (@) Spindle Productions Recieve Everything... _/ \ | +-------------------+ |Sean Wolfe | |Spindle303@lnd.com | +-------------------+ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 04:01:36 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Recording/Nick Batzdorf Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 22 Nov 1995 to 23 Nov 1995 > >Date: Wed, 22 Nov 1995 00:02:30 -0500 >From: Bruce Edwards >Subject: Re: Not-Quite-Ready-For-Prime-Time (Music) Players > >On Fri. 11/17 : "Mark Nutter, College Tech Systems Mgr" asked about >printed material relating to entry level home recording. > >The following list is not meant to be complete nor comprehensive but they do >represent a place to start. Accept where specifically noted they are offered >with no particular recommendation >Magazines: > >RECORDING, published by Music Maker Publications, E-Mail: >Recordin@haven.ios.com Just to play Devil's Advocate - or rather, the Devil - I'll offer a particular recommendation! We're subtitled 'the magazine for the recording _musician_'. I'd say that Mix is geared more towards recording _engineers_. But it's good, too - I always read it. Anyway, Bruce, thanks for the mention. -NB Nick Batzdorf, editor Recording magazine - the magazine for the recording musician 818/346-3404 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:02:53 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > The technicians are able to create songs and > scores without having to take a single lesson in music theory or any > insturment Only the want to make music is needed He also spoke about > how people that aren't "proficient" tend to b a bit more creative or > experimental... because they rely more on how things sound rather than > thinking in terms of keys, tempos, chords, etc.... kind of like reinventing the wheel over and over again. kind of makes you wonder why we waited so long to let the untrained take over doesn't it??? maybe we can let them start building bridges for us and doing surgery too!!! (Stockhausen has seriously posited the question as to what is the effect on the soul of listening to too much bad music. If you don't won't submit your body to the dilettantes why your soul?) > This showed me that > anyone who has music in their heart.... and listens carefully to what music > is saying.... can acomplish great works of art/song.... Great works??????? > I hope too..... With our education systems declining and > becoming.... less > and less funded.... they tend to cut harder on the arts and focus more on > disipline..... just worsens the> situation.... name one human activity that requires 1/2 the discipline of on orchestra! it is the discipline of the arts that creates greatness, without that discipline what follows is expressed in your next quote > it creates an environment where our emotions are repressed and we never > leard to express ourselves freely.... in which violence, and deliquency > just> worsens.... Adding disipline and removing education (real > edutcation) you just create a prison violence and deliquency are self-expression to the exclusion of all else. i believe you are contradicting yourself, or do not fully understand the mechanisms of the behaviours you are referencing.] mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 16:08:37 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "john.." Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <9511230902.0CPLK00@torii.com> On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > name one human activity that requires 1/2 the discipline of on orchestra! > it is the discipline of the arts that creates greatness, without that > discipline what follows is expressed in your next quote A `great' orcehstral musician does not a great composer make. The notion that you must be a trained musician, with years of classical experience, to ever become a great composer is just perpetuating the snobbery that has caused the massive divide between `serious' music and `popular' music. My experience of `serious' musicians and composers has left me with the opinion that they are totally unaware of the real world, blaming current audiences for the lack of interest in contemporary music. Perhaps my experiences are unbalanced... please correct me if this is so, john.. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | e-mail: jat@ohm.york.ac.uk | | web pages start here: http://www.york.ac.uk/~jat5/ | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 12:07:18 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > A `great' orcehstral musician does not a great composer make. an orchestral musician can never rise to the level of greatness by himself, since the entire concept requires subjugation to the demands of a larger ideal. without out the understanding of this and the ability to do this i question whether a composer is worth much, since self indulgence is likely to be the only result of an approach untempered by the requisite atmosphere of discipline and cooperation. anyway, you missed my point entirely: i was responding to your assertion that arts had been removed from educational curricula and discipline substituted. this is oxymoronic. arts without discipline are impossible in any meaningful sense. expression without discipline is basically just a drive-by-shooting. > The notion > that you must be a trained musician, with years of classical experience, > to ever become a great composer is just perpetuating the snobbery that > has caused the massive divide between `serious' music and `popular' music. a) no one said anything about classical experience until you brought it up here. b) the divide is being caused by people unwilling to learn and work within the parameters defined by a tradition that stretches back to the time of pythagoras, not by snobs. if you think you have more to say as a beginner or dilettante that is your privelage. it is probably not true though. i have yet to hear (or hear of) anything produced under such conditions that has the ability to lay bare the elements of the human soul in as much depth and detail as e.g. the third act of tristan, or to inspire as e.g. the last movement of beethoven's ninth. I have not even heard of anyone who is attempting anything beyond superficial enjoyment or adolescent angst. if it works now as you purport, why didn't it ever work before????? > > My experience of `serious' musicians and composers has left me with the > opinion that they are totally unaware of the real world, blaming current > audiences for the lack of interest in contemporary music. > > Perhaps my experiences are unbalanced... please correct me if this > is so, your experiences are unbalanced. true those in academic circles are chosen for their obtuseness in many circumstances and do as you say. ignorance, amateurism, dilettantism etc. is not the solution. the solution, as it always has been, is integration of the popular language into serious discourse. this has happened several times in history already (generally at two hundred year intervals) see for example parody masses of the 1400's, monteverdi's usage of popular forms in his operas (early 1600's) mozart's and haydn's usage of folk song like material in symphonies and operas (late 1700's early 1800's) etc. probably some such evolution will happen in the near future. it will not be driven by wilful ignorance of the past. all those who have succeeded at this in the past were the most highly trained and talented composers of their times and were highlyl successful in the older styles. mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 21:48:21 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: midi remapping on the pc >btw, i don't know how much thought you've given to this up till >now, but when you decide to start programming MIDI for real, let >me suggest that the paradigm you need to adopt is that of an >interrupt-driven state machine. >we'll see if nick disagrees. Of *course* I disagree, Eric, as a point of pride. That seems to be a paradigm which mixes layers of abstraction, and it also seems rather under-powered. "Interrupt-driven" is machine-level terminology to a large extent (or did you mean "event-driven"?); "state machine" is a higher-level, formal-language concept. And I don't really see how such a thing would scale. State machines in particular get very messy as they get bigger, unless you're treating them as the compiled representation of something else. If I were starting a MIDI toolkit project from scratch, I'm not sure what I'd do; it would depend on the problem domain, level of proficiency of the user, lots of things. The obvious answer is to make it objecty and to get message dispatching to go like shit off a shovel, but some sort of higher-order applicative language approach might be sweet: MIDI data streams as lazy lists, that kind of thing. One could do worse than check out James McCartney's Pyrite language for MAX, a sort-of object-oriented Lisp. The syntax is a little fiddly for my tastes but the semantics and data objects are pretty clean and flexible. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com four synths good two synths better ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 12:42:20 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <9511230902.0CPLK00@torii.com> did all of the great artist, sculptors, even musicians have formal training? And if they did not did or were we hurt or damaged by listening to their beautiful music? Mary M. On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > The technicians are able to create songs and > > scores without having to take a single lesson in music theory or any > > insturment Only the want to make music is needed He also spoke about > > how people that aren't "proficient" tend to b a bit more creative or > > experimental... because they rely more on how things sound rather than > > thinking in terms of keys, tempos, chords, etc.... > > kind of like reinventing the wheel over and over again. kind of makes you > wonder why we waited so long to let the untrained take over doesn't it??? > maybe we can let them start building bridges for us and doing surgery too!!! > (Stockhausen has seriously posited the question as to what is the effect on the > soul of listening to too much bad music. If you don't won't submit your body > to the dilettantes why your soul?) > > > This showed me that > > anyone who has music in their heart.... and listens carefully to what music > > is saying.... can acomplish great works of art/song.... > > Great works??????? > > > > > I hope too..... With our education systems declining and > > becoming.... less > > and less funded.... they tend to cut harder on the arts and focus more on > > disipline..... just worsens the> situation.... > > name one human activity that requires 1/2 the discipline of on orchestra! > it is the discipline of the arts that creates greatness, without that > discipline what follows is expressed in your next quote > > > > it creates an environment where our emotions are repressed and we never > > leard to express ourselves freely.... in which violence, and deliquency > > just> worsens.... Adding disipline and removing education (real > > edutcation) you just create a prison > > violence and deliquency are self-expression to the exclusion of all else. > i believe you are contradicting yourself, or do not fully understand > the mechanisms of the behaviours you are referencing.] > > mt > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 14:40:17 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > did all of the great artist, sculptors, even musicians have formal > training? the answer i believe is yes. even Verdi is no exception, since though he was denied entrance to the conservatory at Milan, he had been writing scores from a relatively early age. the russian composers of the nineteenth century celebrated their amateurism, but they were still able to write full orchestral scores. their attitudes about the forms of european compositional style were more related to the fact that russian music had a different approach to form than music of western europe. Michalengelo's paintings on the ceiling of the sistine chapel though really excellent are somehow rendered more understandable in light of the fact that a very large number of ceilings and interior walls all over italy were given this type of treatment. i.e. he was working in a living tradition. Greatness does not emerge out of nothing, but rathers manifests itself in the available styles and traditions. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 08:53:07 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: art/music/power Hi Folks, we've had some really interesting exchanges. Since the 'classical' thiing has been raised, I have a few thoughts. If a musician, either one who seeks to play mainly orchestral music (obviously with others) or one who wishes predominantly to be a soloist, wants to play music of a particular period or tradition, he or she must study the techniques and repertoire of that period with great dedication. (Let's remind ourselves that techniques are modified over time and will change; but this is not the point and I don't wish to start a thread on 'authentic' performance!) In the case of 'classical' (read Western European art) music, many features of the tradition have been well documented in the form of treatises, instructional texts, and in music notation. We could argue about the efficacy of these in the preservation of classical tradition, but it remains that becasue of this, it is in a way easier for a musician to reconstruct the tradition. OTOH, music which is not well documented ( or not at all) requires that the musician listen to other players who are older and have absorbed the tradition in the same way -- by listening and asking. If this oral methodology is not well recognised it is because it is not documented. To the music listener (audience), the result is usually the same. If the musician has not assimilated the tradition sufficiently then the performance will not be well regarded and the musician might even be scorned. I think this applies equally to an orchestra playing Tristan, a soloist playing Kodaly or a bluesman playing Hellhound on my Trail. The advent of recording technologies and the concomitant acceptance of technologies of reproduction make it possible to see more, hear more and learn more of many art practices and styles. Has there been any period in history when fashions have changed so frequently? (Witness the recent 60s and 70s kicks! The 70s have only been over for 16 years!) Perhaps this is because it's now possible to have everything all-at-once. Not only do styles develop and change more often, but, for an artist wishing to pursue a particular style, there is less time to learn before that style is made redundant and considered less worthy (at least until the revival!). I'm not positing this as an absolute reason for the 'downward spiral' of our culture (and I'm not sure I agree with the diagnosis!), nor am I suggesting that artists (do or should) slavishly follow fashion. But the all-at-oneness of electronic media might be a factor. Any thoughts? Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au P.S. > all-at-oneness should read all-at-onceness. Perhaps I should have used the word immediacy!? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 17:28:39 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <9511241440.0KLZU00@torii.com> You're correct greatness does not evolve from nothing, neither can talent, and true musical skill really be taught. Yes, you can learn the music how to play , but can creativity be taught. I don't believe so there are many people that can read music, write, do all of the wonderful things that training teaches you, but if they don't have their music, their lost. Mary M. On Fri, 24 Nov 1995, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > did all of the great artist, sculptors, even musicians have formal > > training? > > the answer i believe is yes. even Verdi is no exception, since though he > was denied entrance to the conservatory at Milan, he had been writing > scores from a relatively early age. the russian composers of the nineteenth > century celebrated their amateurism, but they were still able to write > full orchestral scores. their attitudes about the forms of european > compositional style were more related to the fact that russian music had > a different approach to form than music of western europe. > > Michalengelo's paintings on the ceiling of the sistine chapel though really > excellent are somehow rendered more understandable in light of the fact that > a very large number of ceilings and interior walls all over italy were given > this type of treatment. i.e. he was working in a living tradition. Greatness > does not emerge out of nothing, but rathers manifests itself in the available > styles and traditions. > > mt > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 16:46:17 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: art/music/power Hi, I dont worry about how anyone writes and composes music. Whether one has a degree or is self taught by simply composing, it doesnt matter. If one uses world wide sales of recorded and print music as a yardstick, then self taught composers account for 90% of all the music that is being written and recorded today. Whatever your background it comes down to imagination and inner and outer ears. Formal training is great, but the self training you get by simply creating and composing is where music manifests. With todays music technology, theres no reason why one couldnt write a symphony with just a Sound Canvas and a mouse. Someone else may need 3 degrees to compose a single song. Happy Holiday and Happy Sounds to all, Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:02:32 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > You're correct greatness does not evolve from nothing, neither can > talent, and true musical skill really be taught. Yes, you can learn the > music how to play , but can creativity be taught. I don't believe so > there are many people that can read music, write, do all of the > wonderful things that training teaches you, but if they don't have > their music, their lost. Mary M. on the other hand, there is yet to be an example of someone untrained who can produce at the level of greatness. the above argument you make is often cited in the most specious and absurd manner as an excuse not to learn. unfortunately it can in no way be interpreted as an excuse for illiteracy. true, everyone who can read and write is not shakespeare, but are they worse off for their ability to read and write? is this an excuse not to learn? do you really believe that any random talented illiterate storyteller will ever rise to such a level? would shakespeare have reached that level without reading and writing? would we even have known if he had? music is no different from language in this respect. mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:21:19 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > If one uses world wide sales of recorded and print music as a > yardstick, then self taught composers account for 90% of all the music > that is being written and recorded today. and forgotten tomorrow. you may regard this as a good situation. i don't. > With todays music technology, theres no reason why one couldnt write > a symphony with just a Sound Canvas and a mouse. anybody can string together 30 minutes of sound. so what? don't compare it to the logic and power of a Beethoven or a Mahler. Mehul maybe... (see comment above). mt ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 22:19:11 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > To the music listener (audience), the result is usually the same. If > the musician has not assimilated the tradition sufficiently then the > performance will not be well regarded and the musician might even be > scorned...... this is of course true, but i maintain there is a monumental qualitative difference between that which is possible in an purely oral culture and that which is possible in a literate culture. > The advent of recording technologies and the concomitant acceptance of > technologies of reproduction make it possible to see more, hear more > and learn more of many art practices and styles..... the advent of recording technologies is the main part of the problem in some ways. it has now become possible for anyone to listen to whatever and spout opinions as if they actually knew something about it. in the 18th century amateurs studying the keyboard were taught composition and improvisation. in the 19th century concert-goers most likely had played through the very same pieces they were hearing in 4-hand piano arrangements, and were thus were much better prepared to listen to and understand the musical discourse. in the twentieth century you can buy a CD and claim to be an expert. this is not progress. > Not only do styles develop and change more often, but, for an artist > wishing to pursue a particular style, there is less time to learn before > that style is made redundant and considered less worthy (at least until > the revival!). styles are not developing and changing any faster than they used to, the main problem now is that there is such a paucity of formal possibilities that nobody can really build on anything anyone else has done. as a substitute for true discourse and significance we are forced to swallow personality or intensity. the music itself has very little to say, and specificity of expression is fast becoming a lost art. this is not an issue of classical vs. popular, this is an issue of literacy vs. illiteracy and all that implies. an infinite number of robotic orchestral musicians will never be a valid reason to promote illiteracy as any kind of ideal. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 11:53:50 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Lunney Subject: Re: art and power In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 25 Nov 1995 01:00:14 -0500 from Great thread, folks! On the question of whether or not musical illiterates can make great music, I think that the Shakespeare analogy is a powerful argument. Would you hire an illiterate actor? Would you expect that an illiterate could dictate great verse or fiction? (I know, I know, Homer was illiterate and lived in an oral tradition. But have there been any great illiterate poets in the Western world since Homer?) I also agree with the proposition that bad music is bad for the soul. I teach in an institution that purports to cultivate the liberal arts, and I have often tried to convince my students that if good music elevates the soul, bad music must debase it, and that for the good of their psyches they should learn to appreciate classical music. They don't buy my arguments, and continue to listen to whatever variety of soul-deadening crap is currently popular. Marcel Marceau, the great mime, used to tell his students, "First master the classic. Then you can be creative." I believe his advice applies to musicians, as well. This is my first post to this list, I believe. I am a mere amateur musician, but I am interested in electronic music because I have done work on using e-music to display scientific data so that blind experimenters can analyze data by ear in the same way that sighted people analyze data by eye using visual graphs. David Lunney Department of Chemistry East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858 USA VOICE: 919-758-6453 919-328-6713 FAX: 919-758-0967 919-328-6210 CHLUNNEY@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:18:27 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Hodgson Subject: art/music/power Timothy Kelley writes: > I dont worry about how anyone writes and composes music. Whether one >has a degree or is self taught by simply composing, it doesnt matter. Hear Here! If one MUST come from a background of recognized institutions to contribute something that is listened to, the culture is wearing blinders--great for looking straight ahead only (and you better hope that straight ahead is truly where you want to go). I recommend Stephen J. Gould's _Wonderful Life_, on early evolution, to kick out the jams--mass extinctions almost seem like a rule in the evolution of complex phenomena, given enough time. There's absolutely nothing WRONG with building on tradition, it's just that over the very long pull it often, if not usually, proves inadequate as a basis for survival when the environment changes drastically enough. OK, argument by analogy is specious, but maybe there is a principle here beyond simple analogy. We should keep and develop on the tradition, but also recognize that e-music may be able to do things artistically that acoustic cannot, and sometimes in ways for which classical training (and perhaps training of ANY kind) is useless. More likely, training from different, possibly unexpected, areas can stimulate the most exciting contributions. > > If one uses world wide sales of recorded and print music as a > > yardstick, then self taught composers account for 90% of all the music > > that is being written and recorded today. and Marshall Tuttle responds: >and forgotten tomorrow. you may regard this as a good situation. i don't. And 90% of works by composers trained at Juilliard and other conservatories around the world are NOT forgotten tomorrow? OK, maybe I exaggerate--let's say forgotten next term? Since when did more than an extraordinarily small percentage of the products of ANY art form last for posterity? Of course training of some kind is a necessary condition for contribution, but surely whatever it is that makes us notice a work, and remember it, is defined more by what distinguishes that piece from what has gone before, than by what it bears of what has gone before. We have to perceive discontinuities before we can perceive similarities, and we seem to be hard-wired to pay more attention to the discontinuities. How does a work of art CONTRIBUTE if it is redundant to the preceding body of work? And how about melody? I've had a standard, liberal-arts, non-music- professional education in music, and because I found that treatment of _melody_ was almost ignored I took up the flute for a few years. Whether it helped my understanding of melody is moot, but what it did do was give me a profound respect for tunesmiths (far less than 10%, of course), occasionally not having the traditional training, who could weave melodies right up with the most highly trained composers of yore. And by a good melody, I mean one which grabs the listener with profound emotional beauty--something that may be heard as easily in a pop environment as in a Lincoln Center. Note: I'm divorcing the melody from the arrangement here, and just pointing out that the quality of a "good" melody seems much harder to define and engineer than qualities of, say, counterpoint or orchestration. I throw this out deliberately as flame-bait, because I sincerely want to be enlightened (traditionally or otherwise) on this topic, especially if someone disagrees. And, of course, melody is not a required feature in music--but it's an interesting feature. Marshall Tuttle writes: >this is not an issue of classical vs. popular, this is an issue of literacy >vs. illiteracy and all that implies. Yes, it implies a lot. And most everything you write is true (sigh). But hey, lighten up! Maybe it's time to dust off copies of an earlier Marshall, of the McLuhan variety, who had a lot to say about the transformation and development of that universe of skills we call "literacy." Because this very message is an example of a world he was talking about in the late '60's, which didn't really emerge until the last decade, in which important new communication skills are being spawned by an electronic revolution. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 14:08:59 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art and power > This is my first post to this list, I believe. I am a mere amateur > musician, but I am interested in electronic music because I have done > work on using e-music to display scientific data so that blind > experimenters can analyze data by ear in the same way that sighted > people analyze data by eye using visual graphs. this is very interesting - can you give some details on how your organize your data? while you are at it do you know of any good software for performing fourier transforms on input waveforms? we have been using spike2 and (to a much lesser extent) cspeach. we find there is a problem with bin size (i.e. the program only gives a bin of 7hz for placement of harmonics depending on sampling rate and number of points being analyzed). do you know of anything more accurate? mt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Nov 1995 19:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Recording/Nick Batzdorf Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 24 Nov 1995 to 25 Nov 1995 > >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 12:42:20 -0500 >From: Mary Charlene Moody >Subject: Re: art/music/power > >did all of the great artist, sculptors, even musicians have formal >training? And if they did not did or were we hurt or damaged by >listening to their beautiful music? Mary M. > All right, all right. It's time to jump in and settle this argument once and for all. The correct answer is, Who cares whether a great artists' training was "formal"? The point is that they all _studied_, rather than resorting to preset drum patterns, drum loops, and sampled bass lines of a CD. Michelangelo did not use clip art. Next! -NB Nick Batzdorf, editor Recording magazine - the magazine for the recording musician 818/346-3404 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 12:19:00 -0500 Reply-To: ROSS MACIVER Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: ROSS MACIVER Organization: Media Spectrum: Montreal, Quebec - (514)366-0670 AD> From: David Lunney AD> Subject: Re: art and power Interesting thread this...I agree with most of what Marshall Tuttle is saying, but I think the element of performance is being overlooked, and the greatness of SOME forms of music (notably Jazz) is entirely based on the interpreter (player) rather than who wrote what tune. The value of pop music is derived from a mixture of performance AND composition, the value of classical music from composition only. As for the idea that bad music is bad for the soul - my emotional response is that this is true, but the question keeps popping up: Who decides what is bad music? Satie falls in and out of fashion, Hindemith is never performed any more, and some people actually think that Philip Glass is a great composer. The music of the Beatles was condemned as devils music, but it's still uplifting and positive after 30 years. Great performances can now be recorded and preserved for all time. We are no longer dependent on a literate tradition to assert musical greatness, and consequently the literate tradition falls by the wayside. Does this devalue the great works of the past? Could be. If there isn't a continued understanding about the origins of western art music, there is a declining appreciation of it. The grand architecture of a Beethoven symphony is lost on an audience that has been nurtured on gesture, rather than content. ross.maciver@medspec.com --- * Kivi (unregistered) 1.41a * ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:24:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 24 Nov 1995 to 25 Nov 1995 Comments: To: Recording/Nick Batzdorf In-Reply-To: Sounds good to me. Mary M. On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Recording/Nick Batzdorf wrote: > > > >Date: Fri, 24 Nov 1995 12:42:20 -0500 > >From: Mary Charlene Moody > >Subject: Re: art/music/power > > > >did all of the great artist, sculptors, even musicians have formal > >training? And if they did not did or were we hurt or damaged by > >listening to their beautiful music? Mary M. > > > All right, all right. It's time to jump in and settle this argument once > and for all. > The correct answer is, Who cares whether a great artists' > training was "formal"? The point is that they all _studied_, rather than > resorting > to preset drum patterns, drum loops, and sampled bass lines of a CD. > > Michelangelo did not use clip art. > > Next! > > -NB > > Nick Batzdorf, editor > Recording magazine - the magazine for the recording musician > 818/346-3404 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 15:23:24 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ann Midori Yoshikawa Subject: art and power Comments: To: ROSS MACIVER In-Reply-To: <8B5B2E3.006400714F.uuout@medspec.com> On Sun, 26 Nov 1995, ROSS MACIVER wrote: > The value of pop music is derived from a mixture of performance AND > composition, the value of classical music from composition only. > Why am I taking all of these performance practice classes if "the value of classical music" is derived from "composition only"? Ann Yoshikawa UC Santa Cruz midori@cats.ucsc.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 16:36:26 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Dave Rosborough Subject: Re: art and power >Why am I taking all of these performance practice classes if "the value >of classical music" is derived from "composition only"? > >Ann Yoshikawa Hmmm.. not to become considered great I hope (I haven't really been following this thread too carefully, so if I'm missing the point, please correct me!) When I look at the newspaper reviews of the concerts held here (and there are some great ones!), generally, I look at the name of the performer (in the Classical concerts) and say "Who's that?".... Then I say "Oh, he's performing Beethoven's 2nd piano concerto... I really like the third movement of that one..." So the credit generally goes to the composer, not the performer... this is also pretty much the same when I actually go to the concert... All of the piano recitals (especially) I have been to, the pianists are ALL good. It is the piece that sticks in my mind more than the performer. Not so with pop music. Seeing "U2" and a date/place on a poster will sell 20000 tickets just like that. It never says "U2, performing 'Pride', by Bono (or whoever...)"... It isn't really the composition that sells the tickets, it is the performer... Granted, you could very correctly argue that without good music, U2 wouldn't be popular, but it ISN'T the specific composition that draws people to the concert (usually).. DaveR _________________________________________________ David Rosborough Online Services Designer, Faculty of Education, SFU drosboro@sfu.ca http://www.educ.sfu.ca/people/DavidR/ _________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 20:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Danny McCraine Subject: Re: art/music/power I happen to be a young band director and composer and starting to venture into the realm of electronic composition. I like to describe my "classical" band compositions as "classical with a twist." One thing I have noticed in my teaching is that popular music does tend to fall into historical forms. Granted, for some of these I have had to reach, but when teaching music history to a younger generation, it helps them understand. A lot of Metallica's early works follow the form of the renaissance form, the canzona. Enigma's first album was a collection of contemporary French motets, a form popular in the late renaissance. Listening to the vocals by Alice in Chains gives modern day listeners an insight to medieval organum. Popular music can be instrumental without becoming dull. Names escape me at the moment, but Satriani and Ingwe Malmsteen, and even (groan) Kenny G have been able to attract a large following. If we're looking for a new "Electronic Beethoven," I see Brian Eno's name on this list a lot... Danny McCraine DannyMacC@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Nov 1995 21:18:25 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Craig Marks Subject: GM Patches Comments: To: "Electronic music \"gearhead\" list" Hi there. I'm trying to put together my own General Midi bank but I'm missing some of the necessary information. Does anybody have a list of which programs go in which "slot"? I also need a General Midi Drum map so I can assemble my kit. Thank you for your help. -Craig ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 00:10:10 -0800 Reply-To: Ann Midori Yoshikawa Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ann Midori Yoshikawa Subject: Re: art and power Comments: To: ROSS MACIVER In-Reply-To: <8B5B578.0064007173.uuout@medspec.com> On Sun, 26 Nov 1995, ROSS MACIVER wrote: > > My point was that a composition will not be judged on its performance. > It exists apart from the performance. > But performances CAN make or break even classical compositions. David Revel, author of _The Roaring Silence_, stated that Cage had the idea for 4'33" a few years before he actually let the piece be known to the public because he wanted to be sure that he could pull it off. He didn't want the work to be mocked. In that case, the composition relied on the performance. Your comment on compositions not being judged by the performances relates to both pop and classical music and depends mostly upon first hearings. I have seen groups play songs worse live than on recordings in which my opinion of the song did not change after the performance. However, I have also seen groups, namely the Grateful Dead, that performed songs better live and made me enjoy the tune. Ann ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:32:15 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "David J. Talley" Subject: Hello In-Reply-To: Hi everyone... I've got a Yamaha W7 which I bought recently... I'm still learning the thing. And all of a sudden - my girlfriend bought a MacIntosh 6200 Power PC. While she's still busy playing "Power Pete" killing dinosaurs and saving bunnies, I've been trying to figure out a way to link my W7 to the Mac. Is there an FTP site that has sounds and shareware that I can use for the Mac? Any help would be much appreciated! -- Boldric ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:33:43 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: Re: art/music/power >b) the divide is being caused by people unwilling to learn and work within >the parameters defined by a tradition that stretches back to the time of >pythagoras, not by snobs. if you think you have more to say as a beginner >or dilettante that is your privelage. it is probably not true though. >i have yet to hear (or hear of) anything produced under such conditions >that has the ability to lay bare the elements of the human soul in as much >depth and detail as e.g. the third act of tristan, or to inspire as e.g. >the last movement of beethoven's ninth. I have not even heard of anyone >who is attempting anything beyond superficial enjoyment or adolescent >angst. if it works now as you purport, why didn't it ever work before????? >ignorance, amateurism, dilettantism etc. is not the solution. the solution, >as it always has been, is integration of the popular language into serious >discourse. this has happened several times in history already (generally >at two hundred year intervals) see for example parody masses of the 1400's, >monteverdi's usage of popular forms in his operas (early 1600's) mozart's >and haydn's usage of folk song like material in symphonies and operas >(late 1700's early 1800's) etc. Right on, Marshall; I say, Right on! (In boomer-speak that means "I agree totally with Marshall", the above phrase to be spoken with clenched fist in the air) In fact I would go farther and assert that the notion that "art" music ought to divorce itself completely from the vernacular language is completely a 20th century concept. It's a concept that is costing us dearly, and it's refreshing to see that some people are waking up. I think the fact that "serious" musicians are receiving the wrong lessons from their composition teachers does not excuse anyone from learning and practicing their craft. I learned composition by going to the music library every day and listening to music, following along with the score, making a point of determining why a certain piece "worked", in which way it fell short, etc. In that way, my real composition teachers were Mozart, Haydn, Stravinsky, Sibelius, Schoenberg, etc. I also picked up a few things from composition teachers, but that was mainly peripheral stuff. I'm not going to belittle the role of instinct in creativity either. As someone else pointed out, no one can train you to write a great melody. Either you've got the knack or you don't (although I might add that it can't hurt to know about other people's great melodies and how they were integrated into the music as a whole). In fact we shouldn't be debating training vs. instinct as if it were an either/or situation. You've got to have both, there's no two ways about it. I sense from some people in this thread the idea that technology is making musical training obsolete, that all our new gadgets are going to do the work for us. I suspect those people are falling for marketing hype from synth manufacturers ("the new XQ-75S will set your creativity free..."). All I can say is: "get real". Music is about what's in your head not what's in your rack. See to it that you've got something interesting up there, or the rest of it doesn't matter. //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon mgs2@cornell.edu \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:03:16 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <9511242219.0VCSG00@torii.com> from "Marshall Tuttle" at Nov 24, 95 10:19:11 pm Howdy, all. Back from Thanxgiving and digging out from under back email; I'll be fairly quiet for the next couple of weeks, as I have a visitor in town and we're doing some pretty intense music work. (Before anyone asks, no, the Team is NOT meeting again this soon, although this duet is a subset of the BALLISTIC lineup. Details to follow as appropriate, both here and on SYNTH-L.) I have read the thread on the durability of today's music vs. what we call "classical" music, and have the following as yet ill-formed thoughts (to which Il Signor Tuttle would probably say, "Why don't you take a moment to organize them better before having us try to digest them?" :) on the matter: I think that what bothers me the most about Marshall's position is that he's arguing from a standpoint of a sort of musical imperialism: his yardstick for judging greatness was created by those he deems great, and he places his cultural predecessors above those of other cultures because they're HIS cultural predecessors. This smacks of history books being written by the winners; non-Western oral and/or written traditions must lose in any qualitative comparison, because they've been defined as having less merit than Western forms right at the start. I think a Mandinka griot would have a lot of trouble finding very much worthwhile in Wagner or Mahler; his grandson would have an easier time of it, because he was educated in English-speaking schools where classical music was taught in place of the traditional forms. Repeat ad infinitum for almost every indigenous culture on the planet. The Inuit have traditional songs and music games passed down for centuries that make use of microtonality and several well-understood psychoacoustic principles in startling and fascinating ways. To the classicist, they're just primitive jabberings, possessing a certain naive charm but no muscle. This can be extended to popular music as well, but here the lines get blurry faster than most people realize. Even bands like Green Day know more Western music theory and history than even they themselves realize: to master one's instrument and create a song, even a song like "Basket Case", requires a surprising grounding in harmony, voice leading, and orchestration. The musicians may not know the formal names for the rules they apply, but they do apply them. This backs up Marshall's argument in favor of discipline in the service of art, no matter what you call it (or what Green Day's members call it). The pervasiveness of one's own background in judging other types of music is insidious and often quite far-reaching, making 'objectivity' impossible and 'open-mindedness' the most acceptable, if imperfect, substitute. In fact, in digging up counterarguments to Marshall, I found my own tastes in electronic music have been influenced (sabotaged?) by my own background as much as anyone's: I tend to like the stuff that's done by people with a strong classical grounding and knowledge of orchestral composing, like Larry Fast, Vangelis Papanathassiou, Mark Shreeve, and Anthony Phillips (who got an advanced degree in music between his time in Genesis and the start of his solo career, and who does a LOT of spectacular music for mixed electronics and full orchestras). Does this mean Mr. Tuttle 'wins'? Not entirely: add to that list the Residents and Klaus Schulze, who have little formal theory training and have taught themselves their art--again, through discipline and perserverance. So in that much I will agree with Marshall, and choose to differ on the matter of the inherent timeless worth of classical music (if I never hear another piece of Wagner again, I wouldn't give a damn; this invalidates my opinion, of course, by the rules of Marshall's game ;). A few last thoughts: it is not for us to decide what is immortal or what criteria will create immortality. As the first century of mankind where music can be recorded and archived as it is played rather than as it is notated or taught by one's mentors, we face entirely new challenges and entirely new criteria, and greatness of our era will be different from the greatness of other eras, even as the Ode to Joy was different from the court music of T'ang Dynasty China. Our job is to do what Marshall is doing and what I am doing: make decisions on what should be preserved, argue for them, and teach them to others...preferably by example, by creating music of lasting worth. Leave agelessness to the ages. And finally-- I'd like to go on record as saying that I don't believe in the 'downward spiral' as anything other than a pretty good CD by Nine Inch Nails. I'm a nuclear scientist and I've seen things that would give most folks nightmares; I regard them not as manifestations of our creeping doom but as the birth struggles of a mature society. I choose to think the same way of our arts, including our music. Maybe my work won't be preserved for the next millennium, but create I must.... Back to work, mike -- Cheap modular better than no modular, kemosabe. (r. fahl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 12:39:32 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mario Milat Subject: Re: GM Patches In-Reply-To: <199511270600.BAA221857@atlanta.american.edu> >Hi there. I'm trying to put together my own General Midi bank but I'm >missing some of the necessary information. Does anybody have a list of >which programs go in which "slot"? I also need a General Midi Drum map so >I can assemble my kit. Thank you for your help. -Craig Craig... there are couple of very informative articles on that theme in a winter issue of Music & Computers (a new Keyboard sister magazine). Mario ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Nov 1995 21:07:53 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power > I think that what bothers me the most about Marshall's position is that > he's arguing from a standpoint of a sort of musical imperialism: his > yardstick for judging greatness was created by those he deems great, this is false! i have stated that greatness is not a personal issue but a statistical issue. that work is great which reaches more people at a deeper level and causes most profoundly effects the evolution of society. it doesn't matter who you or i like personally. furthermore i am not arguing the a priori supremacy of classical music. as far as i can tell it WAS pop music when it was written. > he places his cultural predecessors above those of other cultures > because they're HIS cultural predecessors. This smacks of history > books being written by the winners; non-Western oral and/or written actually this too is false, i feel western music to be one of the greatest achievements of human civilization, but i have discontinued my health insurance and taken up the practice of oriental medical techniques, and i have written three of my five operas on oriental texts...... i am not of the opinion that western is automatically superior, and i am willing to risk my life on it. i am of the opinion that illiteracy is profoundly limiting. > realize: to master one's instrument and create a song, even a song like > "Basket Case", requires a surprising grounding in harmony, voice leading, > and orchestration. The musicians may not know the formal names for the > rules they apply, but they do apply them. This backs up Marshall's > argument in favor of discipline in the service of art, no matter what you > call it (or what Green Day's members call it). > my point entirely, most people do not know that e.g. ian underwood (the pianist for the mothers of invention) actually performed beethoven's fourth piano concerto at UC Berkeley as a student. Zappa had good taste in who he hired! > In fact, in digging up counterarguments to Marshall, I found > my own tastes in electronic music have been influenced (sabotaged?) > by my own background as much as anyone's: I tend to like the stuff > that's done by people with a strong classical grounding and knowledge of > orchestral composing, like Larry Fast, Vangelis Papanathassiou, Mark > Shreeve, and Anthony Phillips (who got an advanced degree in music > between his time in Genesis and the start of his solo career, and > who does a LOT of spectacular music for mixed electronics and full > orchestras). Does this mean Mr. Tuttle 'wins'? Not entirely: add to > that list the Residents and Klaus Schulze, who have little formal theory training and have taught themselves their art--again, through discipline > and perserverance. So in that much I will agree with Marshall, and > choose to differ on the matter of the inherent timeless worth of > classical music (if I never hear another piece of Wagner again, I > wouldn't give a damn; this invalidates my opinion, of course, by the > rules of Marshall's game ;). > you don't have to like wagner for it to be good. furthermore i reiterate, i am not preaching that classical music is implicitly better because it is classical, rather that that classical which is better is better because it was written in a tradition which supported a level of musical discourse we are currently not seeing. lots of classical (at least 90%) is junk. > A few last thoughts: it is not for us to decide what is immortal or > what criteria will create immortality. As the first century of mankind > where music can be recorded and archived as it is played rather than as it > is notated or taught by one's mentors, we face entirely new challenges > and entirely new criteria, and greatness of our era will be different from > the greatness of other eras, even as the Ode to Joy was different from > the court music of T'ang Dynasty China. Our job is to do what > Marshall is doing and what I am doing: make decisions on what should be > preserved, argue for them, and teach them to others...preferably by > example, by creating music of lasting worth. Leave agelessness to > the ages. > immortality is created by relevance. revolutionary ages tend to remain relevant to their subsequent ages, thus you find most great art comes from those ages (1700 - 1900 in europe, the early 1600's in Japan). if we are in a revolutionary period as you suggest, we will create those symbols to which our descendents will look for inspiration and instruction. the people who succeed in this, however, will not be illiterate i believe. mt > I'd like to go on record as saying that I don't > believe in > the 'downard spiral" i'm not sure i believe in it either, but i don't actually see any evidence to contradict it. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 01:10:11 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Other things to do with motorized faders 1) Tie strings to them and have those run to something else to be "controlled" by the faders. I wonder if you could put together a dance performance in which it was the DANCER connected to the faders... 2) A spot of fluorescent paint and a black light. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 02:04:19 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Pasch Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <199511271703.JAA29471@netcom23.netcom.com> I find this discussion fascinating and intellectually as well as artistically stimulating. If you decided to keep this column going, you could easily publish it. Keep the thoughts and creation going- you have my admiration and gratitude. Tim Pasch. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:14:54 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Patrick Robinson Subject: Re: art/music/power > I find this discussion fascinating and intellectually as well as > artistically stimulating. If you decided to keep this column going, you > could easily publish it. But ... they *are* publishing it. That's how you and I come to be reading it. :-) --- Patrick Robinson Extension Information Systems, Virginia Tech pgr@ramandu.ext.vt.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 07:21:29 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: John Zorn? If anyone on EMUSIC-L has an email address, telephone number, or mailing address for John Zorn, please contact me. I have been approached by a student desiring a copy of some of his game piece rules for a research paper, and would like to put her directly in contact with him. Thanks in advance. mike -- Cheap modular better than no modular, kemosabe. (r. fahl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 11:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: ROSCO Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: ROSCO Organization: Media Spectrum: Montreal, Quebec - (514)366-0670 Subject: Re: art-music-power AD> I think that what bothers me the most about Marshall's position is that AD> he's arguing from a standpoint of a sort of musical imperialism: his AD> yardstick for judging greatness was created by those he deems great, and AD> he places his cultural predecessors above those of other cultures AD> because they're HIS cultural predecessors. This smacks of history books AD> being written by the winners; non-Western oral and/or written traditions AD> must lose in any qualitative comparison, because they've been defined as AD> having less merit than Western forms right at the start. The fact that western music has been embraced by eastern cultures surely indicates that it has some value that transcends cultural traditions. We in the west are perhaps less open to music of other cultures, but I believe eastern art music is at least recognized as having as much merit as western music, even if it is not fully understood. ross.maciver@medspec.com --- * Kivi (unregistered) 1.41a * ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 07:23:50 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: patent research If anyone is working at a firm or a school that has copies of the AES Journal or any other prominent audio journals on hand, I could use some help...I need to track down copies of some patents that were published in the back of some of these journals in the past two years. Please email me (NOT the list!) if you can help. Thanks very much. mike -- Cheap modular better than no modular, kemosabe. (r. fahl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 11:22:01 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: <9511272107.0TOP200@torii.com> from "Marshall Tuttle" at Nov 27, 95 09:07:53 pm Marshall Tuttle writes a lot of good stuff but leads with a bad argument-- > > > I think that what bothers me the most about Marshall's position is that > > he's arguing from a standpoint of a sort of musical imperialism: his > > yardstick for judging greatness was created by those he deems great, > >this is false! i have stated that greatness is not a personal issue but a >statistical issue. that work is great which reaches more people at a deeper >level and causes most profoundly effects the evolution of society. This is even more indefensible! By this token, if the Abbassid caliphs had maintained control of Europe, then Arabian music would be great and Wagner would be a lost footnote to history. Your arguments are directly supporting my more blunt statement below that history books are written by the winners, and your statement that the greatest art is created at times of revolution and struggle bears that out. The stuff that comes out when society takes a jink to the left is what gets remembered, for the very reason that the society makes it so in the revolution. Ask any art student in the Soviet Union under Stalin or any Chinese youth during the Cultural Revolution what was important, REALLY important, in the history of art and music. I'll give you a hint: it wasn't Wagner, Hemingway, or Matisse. Note that the constant rise of Western art in recent centuries could be ascribed to the predominance of 'the good guys' over everyone else or to a certain inherent immortality it's managed to shellac over itself from centuries in the sun, but that's about the most concession I'll make to art having its own power to survive. We recognize beauty in lost, dead cultures only reluctantly, and we always start from what we deem familiar and recognizable. You mention Japanese art of the 1600s: I would argue that the heavily Chinese-influenced Tokugawa stuff is nowhere near as lovely as the simple shapes and textures of the Muromachi or even back in the Nara period. But who finds beauty in a hand-shaped, uneven clay cup, glazed creamy white with no gold inlay or pictures on it in pretty colors? > it doesn't matter who you or i like personally No, it doesn't. Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation of humanity what was great in the past. You're caught in the cycle, just like I am. > furthermore i am not arguing the >a priori supremacy of classical music. as far as i can tell it WAS pop >music when it was written. A lot of it was, yeah. But you seem to think that yesterday's pop became today's classical because it was the scum that floated to the surface under its own power. My argument is that yesterday's pop music became today's classical music by the same mechanism that puts more Springsteen than samisen music on Sony Walkmans on the Ginza today, or has the Go-Gos blaring from speakers in markets in Dacca, or Guangzhou, or Adelaide, or Capetown. >i am not of the opinion that western is automatically superior, and i am >willing to risk my life on it. But it must be superior because it's been taught to more people by more teachers at more universities in more countries that have been politically/militarily/morally/socially/religiously influenced by the great European powers and therefore is most universally recognized and therefore has had the most impact. I'd advise jettisoning the 'statistical' argument that exposure = greatness before it gets you in any more trouble. :) And at this point, we start agreeing on most everything... >i am of the opinion that illiteracy is profoundly limiting. I take issue with the word 'profoundly' but concede the general point, particularly in a non-oral society such as ours. (There's that pesky societal context again, darn it.) >my point entirely, most people do not know that e.g. ian underwood (the >pianist for the mothers of invention) actually performed beethoven's fourth >piano concerto at UC Berkeley as a student. Zappa had good taste in who >he hired! Zappa demonstrated professionalism and an eye toward strict discipline in his backing musicians, and in fact came to rely heavily on that in his live work. Toward the end of his career, he stopped touring because his live ensemble rehearsed brutally hard and relied vitally on one another for support every single gig, and one of his band members pissed the others off enough to need to be replaced. Zappa found it easier to pack up touring than to retrain one person at that point. He was willing to ultimately pay the price of discipline. Which, I believe, carries your point even further. >you don't have to like wagner for it to be good. furthermore i reiterate, >i am not preaching that classical music is implicitly better because it is >classical, rather that that classical which is better is better because it >was written in a tradition which supported a level of musical discourse >we are currently not seeing. lots of classical (at least 90%) is junk. 90% of EVERYTHING is junk. Sturgeon's Law. :) And this argument has a couple of small problems, but is a lot nicer than saying that art is great because it gets to the most people. >if we are in a revolutionary period as you suggest, we will create those >symbols to which our descendents will look for inspiration and instruction. >the people who succeed in this, however, will not be illiterate i believe. Time will tell. > > I'd like to go on record as saying that I don't > > believe in > > the 'downard spiral" > >i'm not sure i believe in it either, but i don't actually see any evidence >to contradict it. I can think of ten or eleven examples off the top of my head, starting with my baby daughter and moving up to the recent reissue of Synergy's first album, but maybe my biases are showing. :) Keep doing what you do best, mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | AND SO IT GOES: = atomic@netcom.com = | cd mailorder po box 81175 | M Stevens: "I write funk music for children." pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | or order from our website | Matt Haines: "I do NOT write funk music for http://pd.net/atomic-city | children." or via infinite illusions | Ernest Bruggeman: "So don't I! I can sue you toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | for plagia[rism]...." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:28:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: Progress our most important product? >> Any ideas on where to start? ED wrote: >1. Decide what the basic elements are of the style of the music you wish > to notate. > > (not all music requires harmony, pitch, duration, speed and volume as > does the traditional western model...and in pretty equal amounts) > >2. Decide what the most logical way is to express those values in graphic > form. > >Test it, refine it. Spreadsheet. I've been listening to some ambient stuff, and thinking of a technique of composing using an excell-type of spreadsheet. Then, converting the .wks to .txt and then converting the .txt to .mid file. Nick Rothwell commented about galleries and warehouses. Spreadsheets can be used as "spaces." Addresses of spaces are rows and columns, for instance. Ed, I might have something for your class by Xmas. ;) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:11:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: art/music/power Comments: To: marshall.tuttle@TORII.COM >immortality is created by relevance. revolutionary ages tend to remain >relevant to their subsequent ages, thus you find most great art comes from >those ages (1700 - 1900 in europe, the early 1600's in Japan). > >if we are in a revolutionary period as you suggest, we will create those >symbols to which our descendents will look for inspiration and instruction. >the people who succeed in this, however, will not be illiterate i believe. > >mt Listening to "Nixon In China," I can almost hear a melding of east and west. By the word- almost - I imply only that my listening skills remain in an evolutionary state, analytically inexperienced with Chinese scales. To what extent do you mix east with west in your operas? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:41:03 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: art/music/power Hi Marshall and Mike, this thread gets better and better. In relation to what you just said, mt... > furthermore i am not arguing the >a priori supremacy of classical music. as far as i can tell it WAS pop >music when it was written. Well, maybe. I can't say whether it was for all of it. However, it remains that many so-called 'classical' composers were able to do what they did because of patronage from the courts or aristocracy. Not only did the latter provide them with the means to create, but also gave them an audience. So I wonder if we can really say that this music was the pop music of its time? How many peasants or factory workers heard it? knew about it? sought it? Probably not too many, methinks. (Anyone got evidence to contrary? Do tell.) OTOH, the ruling classes often did not consider the proletariat much of a polity worth consulting beyond their mere utilitarian value, so if a composer seemed to be popular it was proabaly because all their collared mates liked him! (OK< that's a little trite! Sorry.) > i have stated that greatness is not a personal issue but a > statistical issue. Yes. But with the above qualifier. If you only survey the patrons, those whom they patronize are likely to be seen as great and popular. > that work is great which reaches more people at a deeper > level and causes most profoundly effects the evolution of society. But how many people did it actually reach. Fewer than we might think; and this is now not just a class argument. We've already mentioned reproduction technologies in this thread (and the growth of consumerism) which just didn't exist then. So you had to be able to get into the right circles to hear the music, and afford to do so (regardless of your social standing -- though I suspect the latter had a great deal to do with it). > i am of the opinion that illiteracy is profoundly limiting. >From a certain point of view it is. But let's not forget that pre-literate societies appear to have coped with the events in their world and to have existed more harmoniously with their environments than our ever-changing Western society. Afew people have commented that literacy meant the end of memory. If you relied on memory, then you and your world were less likely to change becasue you spent more time trying to learn oral histories and traditions, and their efficacy depended on your memory; consequently, less change would occur. Western society OTOH began to change ('progress') more quickly because writing and printing made more sources of information available and subject to scrutiny. People were able to get more information and see errors or inconcsistencies in different sources. Thus began the roller-coaster of progress and technological change. (For a good account of this, have a look at Elizabeth Eisenstein's _The Printing Press As An Agent of Change: The Printing Revolution in Early-Modern Europe_) In Western society, illiteracy is profoundly limiting becasue text is the currency of the moment. Of course, nowadays people are talking about visual forms as being more important (and implying that literacy skills are not so important anymore). Well, as Walter Ong said, we're all familiar with the saying that a picture says a thousand words, but if this were true, why would it necessary to say so! > you don't have to like wagner for it to be good. furthermore i reiterate, >i am not preaching that classical music is implicitly better because it is > classical, rather that that classical which is better is better because it >was written in a tradition which supported a level of musical discourse > we are currently not seeing. lots of classical (at least 90%) is junk. If we accept the popular definition of 'classical' to mean western art music, we might dispute this. How much is 'junk' is hard to determine. How much from former ages has survived? Presumably, what we treasure has survived because enough people have thought it worth perpetuating. (Perhaps there's an argument for market forces, after all! ;-) ) As for the level of music discourse, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but's let's remember that music in this century has seen more change than that in previous centuries. Don't mistake 'level of discourse' for 'type of discourse'. If you're very accustomed to 12-tone equal temperament, diatonic harmony (even if extended), fairly regular duple or truiple rhythms, counterpoint,etc. then much of today's music may well be distressing to you (including that of non-Western cultures and some pop and rock influenced by pop and rock). Marshall, I don't accuse you of this bias, I'm jusy making the point. Furthermore, while much of pop and rock music seems banal, it is language-based (as songs always are) and covers themes which are familiar to most people. So maybe that's a large part of the reason it appeals more, at least superficially. to more people. > revolutionary ages tend to remain > relevant to their subsequent ages as does art and ideas. One feature of many revolutions has been the idea that everyone in a society ought to have a voice in the society. So the elevation of popular forms of music and art is to be expected and, in terms of this ideal, is only fair. But it cuts both ways. It's only in places like Cambodia where heinous regimes gain power that all previous ideas are ignored, discouraged or totally eradicated. More often, there's a filtering up and down. Pop music wouldn't be what it is without a hefty does of Western art music and theory; 'classical' music today wouldn't be what it is without the influence of pop and non-Western music and ideas. (of course, some might despair at this, but I won;t accuse Marshall of this either, becasue his comments seem equally applicable to any artistic practise; most of the discussion has been about classical music. Whether we like it or not, much electronic music procedes from that tradition and we can't - and shouldn't, I think - ignore it.) As for the downward spiral, I can't see much evidence that it's not happening, at least where literacy is concerned. If you agree that ours is still a text-based culture, literacy skills must be seen as essential to survival in this culture. If you can't articulate you ideas, they just aren't going to be noticed! That's all for now. Looking forward to the next round! Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:54:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: Not-Quite-Ready-For-Prime-Time (Music) Players Dear Bruce: I noticed your address contains "aol". Have you ever uploaded any midi files to America On-Line? I'd like to upload some of my out-take stuff to use as examples when battling the Philistines. Also, do you have any recordings out? I love your writing and am eager to hear your musical works. Roger ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:41:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: coordinating the comp tape... last call >John Krikawa flute >Jeff Talman oboe >Jon Morris clarinet >Alan Bookmiller bassoon >Doug Michael french horn >Nick Rothwell english horn >Trish O'Neil kettle drums >Harold Cowherd trumpet >Jason Geistweidt trombone >Bjorn Lynne tuba >Peter Uchytil violin >Mike Metlay second fiddle >Pete Schoenhoff viola >Michael Ridderbusch 'cello >Bill Scott double bass >Eric Harnden conductor Dear Eric: As you gather voltage ("conductor") could you find a spot for a triangle player? I'd like to tinkle along. Your's, ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 20:16:44 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: ART/MUSIC/POWER > >this is false! i have stated that greatness is not a personal issue but a > >statistical issue. that work is great which reaches more people at a deeper > >level and causes most profoundly effects the evolution of society. > > This is even more indefensible! By this token, if the Abbassid caliphs > had maintained control of Europe, then Arabian music would be great > and Wagner would be a lost footnote to history. Wagner as we know him would not have existed. but it is true, that the great geniuses would be those who knew how to work with the language at hand. as for arabian music, it would have assimilated quite a bit of other influences as well leading to....?????? > Your arguments are > directly supporting my more blunt statement below that history books > are written by the winners, and your statement that the greatest art > is created at times of revolution and struggle bears that out. history yes, genius no. greatness in art is always an individual achievement. there are no winners or losers, just a human being willing to sacrifice everything for the pursuit of an ideal. looking at the lives of mozart, beethoven and wagner it is very very difficult to call them winners. wagner wrote most of his work (lohengrin through meistersinger, 6 operas) without hearing a note in performance. Beethoven wrote most of his without hearing anything. these people struggled no end and suffered profound rejection. they worked in the prevailing language which was defined for them to a certain extent, but they were not the winners in their respective times. my feeling that western music is one of the greatest achievements of all human culture comes from the fact that it is in fact more flexible and complex than any other music and capable of a greater range and variety of expression. I admit i don't know intimately all other musics, but i have studied many and really see no comparison in most of them. > Note that the constant rise of Western art in recent centuries could > be ascribed to the predominance of 'the good guys' over everyone else > or to a certain inherent immortality it's managed to shellac over > itself from centuries in the sun, but that's about the most concession > I'll make to art having its own power to survive. i don't believe it has its own power to survive. there is much to learn however from the influx of european music into russia in the 19th century and the growing pains of russia in assimilating it. after first exposure russian composers were left unable to limit themselves to their previous resources and stuck between following the european model (tchaikovsky, rachmaninoff) remaining true to a russian heritage (mussorgsky) or escape from the entire dilemna in orientalism and fantasy (rimsky-korsakoff, or stravinsky's earlier stuff). western music tends to predominate because it is more powerful and more flexible. it has nothing to do with good guys. on contact there is always an adjustment period where the symbols become adjusted to use in the new environment. it is curious that the influence often flows backwards at such a juncture as e.g. debussy claimed mussorgsky to be one of his most important influences. > We recognize beauty > in lost, dead cultures only reluctantly, and we always start from what > we deem familiar and recognizable. this is entirely true and something that needs regularly to be contemplated by all who would be "great". when the sun goes nova none of this will have mattered. > You mention Japanese art of the > 1600s: I would argue that the heavily Chinese-influenced Tokugawa > stuff is nowhere near as lovely as the simple shapes and textures of > the Muromachi or even back in the Nara period. But who finds beauty > in a hand-shaped, uneven clay cup, glazed creamy white with no gold > inlay my point is that after tokugawa a tremendous amount of energy went to defining that which was uniquely and characteristicaly japanese. tokugawa himself being a warrior and politician had to rely on a)artists and b) what was already there. therefore much of what he defined as being the cultural norm for the succeeding centuries already was alive and in full swing (e.g. noh theater which had mostly been written some centuries before). > No, it doesn't. Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and > set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation > of humanity what was great in the past. You're caught in the cycle, > just like I am. actually, verdi and wagner lived during those wars, and no amount of suppression is going to displace them. you give too much credit to politicians. as for all of us being caught in the cycle????? that is uncharitable, some of us can think for ourselves. i reiterate, i am not a cultural imperialist and i advocate as avidly the achievements of other cultures which i think surpass ours when appropriate. > A lot of it was, yeah. But you seem to think that yesterday's pop > became today's classical because it was the scum that floated to the > surface under its own power. My argument is that yesterday's pop music > became today's classical music by the same mechanism that puts more > Springsteen than samisen music on Sony Walkmans on the Ginza today, or > has the Go-Gos blaring from speakers in markets in Dacca, or > Guangzhou, or Adelaide, or Capetown. a) that is not my argument. great music is great by interaction between point of origin and point of reception. classical to me personally means those models to which we look for inspiration and instruction, not stuff with violins or stuff by dead people. something is a classic (like the plays of aeschylus) which is obviously transcendent (another example like Bach of greatness that lept over centuries.) b) lehar (yesterday's pop music) is not classic. it never will be. your argument does not hold up. the opposite of your argument (loss of power and supression of language haveing the power to destroy an artform) is also questionable, witness the experiences of the african slaves who maintained much of their native musical traditions and successfully took over the pop music industry through infusion and synthesis. gotta go, more later. mt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 00:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Bruce Edwards Subject: Re: art/pwr It must be one of those distressing little signs of growing old that I find myself, almost against my better judgment, agreeing with a number of declarations made by Mr. Tuttle . . . but I still find the tone of his conclusions to be a little unfortunate. There is a certain irony in that even those who "Agree, but . . . " tend to make his case for him. on 11/27 David Lunney wrote ". . . and the greatness of SOME forms of music (notably Jazz) is entirely based on the interpreter (player) rather than who wrote what tune." Even a cursory read/listen of Jazz history would challenge this statement. With little conscious effort four names arise: Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, & Miles Davis whom I think would take exception to your characterization of Jazz as being entirely interpretive. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Nov 1995 21:49:22 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Pouncy Can anyone provide me a list of MIDI Controller Numbers and their respective functions, i.e. Controller 64 = Sustain Pedal. Or, is their a news group devoted to electronic/midi music? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 10:26:19 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Miroslav Teker Subject: AKAI sites where? Hi, I've recently purchased an AKAI S3000i sampler and I'm thinking about getting more sample banks for it. Are there any ftp sites with samples/banks for either older or newer AKAI samplers? Thanks. Miro ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 07:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: ART/PWR > on 11/27 David Lunney wrote ". . . and the greatness of SOME forms of >music (notably Jazz) is entirely based on the interpreter (player) rather > than who wrote what tune." Even a cursory read/listen of Jazz history >would challenge this statement. With little conscious effort four names >arise: Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, & Miles Davis >whom I think would take exception to your characterization of Jazz as being >entirely interpretive. actually, i would agree with you that there are some profound talents of incredible brilliance in the jazz world. what concerns me about it (and something that i have alluded to in the past) is the lack of possibility of evolution - i.e. in the pop music world personality is substituted for actual musical quality to such an extent that when someone does materialize who is miles above (pun intended) it is still viewed as a personal style rather than a door opening to another aspect of music that all can explore. much of the 19th and 20th centuries derived their impetus from the works of beethoven and the techniques he developed. as brilliant as miles davis and frank zappa were, i don't think they will lead to anything. this is not because of any deficiency on their parts, but rather a deficiency in the way we choose to perceive them and their achievements. (i could be wrong, and in fact i would like to be wrong on this.) mt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:33:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: roger king Subject: Re: fractal fever Comments: cc: algo-comp@serial.music.uiowa.edu >Return-Path: >Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:52:43 -0600 >From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" >To: roger king >Subject: Re: fractal fever >X-UIDL: 817662465.000 > >> Dear Dr. Corey: >> >> I'm preparing to play some algorhythmic compositions live. >> >> Do you have any suggestions for playing experimental music >> to a live audience? > >Hi, Roger. Yes, I have some experience with this. Much of it depends on >what kind of audience you are performing for and how the music sounds. >In general, I try to involve the audience by talking about the music >(rather than just expecting them to read the program notes). That's the >most important thing, in my experience. > >You might put this question to emusic-l and/or algo-comp; I think it >could generate interesting discussion on both lists. > >-- Kirk > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Dr. Kirk Corey [insert Electronic Systems Administrator >kirk-corey@uiowa.edu disclaimer School of Music >http://www.music.uiowa.edu/~kcorey/ here] The University of Iowa > "Exon" is a four-letter word that shouldn't be allowed on the Internet. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:39:25 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Lunney Subject: Re: art/music/power etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 29 Nov 1995 01:00:25 -0500 from On 11/29 Bruce Edwards wrote "... on 11/27 David Lunney wrote . . . and the greatness of SOME forms of music (notably Jazz) is entirely based on the interpreter (player) rather than who wrote what tune.' Even a cursory read/listen of Jazz history would chall enge this statement. With little conscious effort four names arise: Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, Charlie Parker, & Miles Davis whom I think would take exception to your characterization of Jazz as being entirely interpretive. " That wasn't me Bruce, but somebody else. I don't know enough about jazz or care enough about it to have made such a statement. David Lunney Department of Chemistry East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858 USA VOICE: 919-758-6453 919-328-6713 FAX: 919-758-0967 919-328-6210 CHLUNNEY@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:34:33 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Scot Gresham-Lancaster Subject: Re: fractal fever Comments: To: roger king Comments: cc: algo-comp@serial.music.uiowa.edu In-Reply-To: > >> > >> I'm preparing to play some algorhythmic compositions live. > >> > >> Do you have any suggestions for playing experimental music > >> to a live audience? > > I would suggest that you check out the work of the HUB of which I am a proud member. We have been doing live interactive algorithmically based music as a group since 1986 and as individuals for decades. Several of the members of the group and others are represented on the Artifact recording label which is dedicated to promolgating recordings of this genre of music. Of note is the recording of Jim Tenney's pioneering work from the '60s in this area. You can check out the web page with more descriptions at: http://tesla.csuhayward.edu/~brian/artifact/index.html or email me and I will forward snail mail requests to John Bischoff x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0x0 Scot Gresham-Lancaster scot@csuhayward.edu MB1525a ph: 510-885-3150 CSUHayward fax:510-885-3461 Hayward, CA 94542 " A market place is where greedy people cooperate. A community takes imagination" paraphrased from poet Robert Haas ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 18:33:54 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Other things to do with motorized faders >1) Tie strings to them and have those run to something else to be "controlled" > by the faders. I wonder if you could put together a dance performance in > which it was the DANCER connected to the faders... Don't tempt me. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com four synths good two synths better ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:53:15 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: rrussell@SBNSW.COM.AU Subject: ...no subject... Hello, Sorry for dropping in but I hope someone can help me....... Does anyone know the internet address of Fender Guitars or the Fender Guitar Custom Shop in the US ? Please reply to my email address Robot@MSN.Com Thanks Regards Robert, Australia ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:55:17 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Craig Marks Subject: Dedicated Drum Modules Comments: cc: "Electronic music \"gearhead\" list" I am contemplating the purchase of some sort of dedicated drum module to add to my rig. I am looking mainly at the roland R-8 or the Alesis D4 (though I am certainly open to other suggestions). I would love to know what y'all think of these two units (and any others you might suggest). What are the relative merits of one over the other? Are the pads on the R-8 a nice thing to have? I do most of my work via a keyboard for now (though I'm looking to get a drum controller in the not too distant future). About how much should I be looking to spend on these modules? Is there a rack version of the R-8 that might save me a few bucks? Thanks for all of your input. -Craig ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:31:09 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: art/music/power >Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and >set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation >of humanity what was great in the past. I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could remember the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com four synths good two synths better ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:07:07 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: ART/MUSIC/POWER > I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding > American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could > remember the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. i never knew this. if true it only goes to show a) they had really bad taste, b) its about as effective as everything else they seem to do and c) money and power alone just don't make it. there has to be something there to begin with. mt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:24:26 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Subject: Re: art/music/power In-Reply-To: On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Nick Rothwell wrote: > >Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and > >set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation > >of humanity what was great in the past. > > I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding > American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could remember > the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. Well, someone had to entertain the mediums, right? :) On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding > > American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could > > remember the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. > > i never knew this. if true it only goes to show a) they had really bad taste, > b) its about as effective as everything else they seem to do and c) money > and power alone just don't make it. there has to be something there to begin > with. That seems a bit harsh. American abstract artists are indicative of bad taste? I think not. Now, if they were funding manufacturers of plastic lawn ornaments, I'd call that bad taste. As for effectiveness, I understand they are pretty good at deposing leaders of other countries. True, money and power alone just don't make it. On the other hand, I'd say genius alone just won't make it, either. Always remember the Golden Rule of the Arts and Sciences: Them what's got the gold, makes the rules. Some people think Beethoven is great because of the way his music is different from what came before him. Some people think Beethoven is great because his music still sells CDs in a certain niche market, and if you invest your money in a company that figures the niche right, Beethoven can still make you some money. Some of the students (well, mostly the male students) I've encountered in the past couple of decades in academia like Beethoven because they think knowing a little about Beethoven will help increase their odds of getting laid (a misconception advanced once every 3.76 years on various television sitcoms). Why does Beethoven survive? All of the above, I'd bet. Doesn't mean he wasn't a genius, or that his music is no longer relevant, or any of that. But it does question the assumption that art will automagically survive on genius alone. In Beethoven's case, and in many other cases, genius is getting a lot of help. I can't think of any art, genius or no, which has survived without money/power. I'll bet there are a lot geniuses from the past and the present whom we'll never know. -- Kirk P.S. I understand a recent NYT story quotes a "MacArthur Genius" saying it has been determined that the recap in Mvt. 1 of Beethoven 9 demonstrates that Beethoven was a frustrated rapist incapable of achieving his goals. Anyone actually see this article? This info comes to me second hand, so I don't know whether it's for real. What if Jesse Helms finds out? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:24:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: art/music/power Comments: To: nick@CASSIEL.COM >Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and >set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation >of humanity what was great in the past. I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could remember the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. -Nick There was an exhibition of radical femenist paintings in Rome back in the early 70's that they kicked alot of money into, too. Probably the same reasons for doing that, too. _Peter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:57:44 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: Dedicated Drum Modules Hi, I use the Alesis SR-16 for out of town gigs, cause of its small size. In the studio and for local gigs, I use the R-8. The realtime pads are great. With practice one can get 4 lines going at once, just like a real drummer can with his 2 hands and 2 feet. Its also lots of fun to use it for playing non drum sounds. And the 8 outs are great if one is multilayering latin ensembles or other multitrack percussion. Visitors to the studio love to just pick up the R-8 and play on the pads. I do too. Its fun and the pads on the table top version can offer a lot of real time input that one cant get with using the rack mount without going out and buying external pads. You can get much more human and better sounding tracks with the drum pads vs using a keyboard for drum parts. If you have a home studio that doesnt have room for a real drum kit, real drummers can quickly learn to use the R-8's drum pads. Happy Drum Tracks Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:31:24 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Recording Careers After a few weeks of following EMUSIC-L, and having just read Martin's treatise on the rules, I feel partially emboldened to ask a question of the members that has been burning me most of my adult life. How does one start a career as an engineer in the recording industry? I get the impression that most of the contributors to this listserv are music professionals. I majored in music for part of my college career but ended up getting a degree in electrical engineering. I went into avionics design, simply because I was an unfocussed lad and this was where the money was. Ever since, I have hankered to find an opening into the recording industry. I have seen dozens of ads for vocational technical schools that seem to guarantee me a job, once I have plopped down the required sum and spent a year or two being poor and studying. I have always felt that these schools, while valuable for their career placement facility, would end up teaching me stuff I already have studied, and probably at a lower level than I studied them. I confess I am also reluctant to again endure the poverty of my college years, although I have been sorely tempted at times. Call me materialistic. Or spoiled. I am a frustrated musician/engineer. My instruments are guitar, voice, computer, and keyboard - in that order. I have occasionally managed to eke out a living as a performer, though I prefer recording. While I don't think I'll shake the roots of the music industry with my musical prowess, I do have a very gifted ear. How did you get started? Were your primary skills engineering or music? Is it a right-time-at-the-right-place deal only? How competitive is it? What "dues" did you have to pay? How do you like it now? What sort of salary did you make at first? How quickly did it go up? What are the primary rewards of that career for you? I would be very interested in hearing stories of how members of EMUSIC-L got their start in the recording industry, any anecdotes you may have about the industry, and any advice you may have for me. I salute you all!! Thanks, George Allaman Denver, Colorado Office (303) 624-1619 Home (303) 771-8060 Alternate: georgea@csn.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:52:49 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Garn'n'Blast Subject: Re: art/music/power >>Only who was liked by the people who won the wars and >>set up the new governments and the schools to teach the next generation >>of humanity what was great in the past. > >I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding >American abstract artists during the Cold War. Now if only I could remember >the reasons. Er: the alleged reasons. ...uh Nick, can you provide some more background? bear in mind that the CIA keeps around a handful of psychics at all times. Ob.Emusic: Were they also funding Cage Tudor and Cunningham? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:20:33 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: comp tape sub deadline after Dec 7, open subscription to EMLTAPE-L will be closed, fixing the contributors list. Harold Cowherd? Bill Scott? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: JAMZ69@AOL.COM Subject: nyt article for kirk >P.S. I understand a recent NYT story quotes a "MacArthur >Genius" saying >it has been determined that the recap in Mvt. 1 of Beethoven 9 >demonstrates that Beethoven was a frustrated rapist >incapable of achieving >his goals. Anyone actually see this article? Dear Kirk It was in the Week In Review section on 11/26, and titled "Musicologists Roll Over Beethoven". Susan McClary discusses Beethoven in her treatise "Feminine Endings: Music, Gender, and Sexuality". The NYT article itself was about how the discipline of musicology was established in the 18th/19th century as a reaction to "gushing about love and religion" and is now "giving way to its contemporary counterparts, gender and politics." I just sort of rolled my eyes at the whole thing...(no pun intended). For me, the genius of the 9th Symphony (as well as other pieces) is not related to sexuality, be it male or female. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:19:34 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: JAMZ69@AOL.COM Subject: Re: ART/MUSIC/POWER--Marshal! > I found it fascinating to discover how the CIA was covertly funding > American abstract artists during the Cold War. >>i never knew this. if true it only goes to show a) they had >>really bad taste tsk, tsk, Marshall. It's one thing to criticize others on this list for broad negative observations, but then to turn around and do it yourself?! jm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:47:46 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: ART/MUSIC/POWER > Some people think Beethoven is great because of the way his music is > different from what came before him. Some people think Beethoven is > great because his music still sells CDs in a certain niche market, and if you > invest your money in a company that figures the niche right, Beethoven can > still make you some money. Some of the students (well, mostly the male > students) I've encountered in the past couple of decades in academia like > Beethoven because they think knowing a little about Beethoven will help > increase their odds of getting laid (a misconception advanced once every > 3.76 years on various television sitcoms). > > Why does Beethoven survive? All of the above, I'd bet. Doesn't mean he > wasn't a genius, or that his music is no longer relevant, or any of > that. but, you have just related a number of ways in which he is deeply relevant to modern day culture. (the culture can only respond at the level of its own metaphors). mt