========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:55:02 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: FAUST Subject: Re: um, synths used on Joy Division records I don't know if this will help, but it will be a start. Joy Division did make some videos, even thought they are not really that good; the videos that is, they do show what type of equipment they use. So if you can track down the video of"love will tear us apart", you will find out what synth was used. And yes, there is a video for "love will tear us apart" and they do a couple of close-ups of the synth that was used. I will try to locate my copy of Joy Division videos and look for it, but can't promise anything. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ttfn Jamie [jbarbour@jcvaxa.jcu.edu] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:33:25 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: amp > supported on the much broader point that political power > historically has heavily influenced the development of art. to deny influence would be foolhardy. to assert control would be another matter. as it happens, black music overtook the south through its assimilated forms rather than being lost or destroyed. > Again, I highly > recommend this book for its comments on the misunderstandings engendered by > ethnocentrism and the prejudice that the Western approach to music is > somehow "superior" to other approaches. one of the virtues of western music is that it is able to assimilate influences without losing its character - e.g. blues is obviously western and impossible to conceive of without the african influence. is there another musical tradition that has this flexibility? i think not. chinese composers of the cultural revolution attempting to create political concertos by committee reflecting chinese populists achievements created music which gives the effect of a goldfish swallowing a whale, the chinese traditions are absorbed in the western context rather than vice versa as in say, turandot, or the gamelan influenced pieces of debussy which give the opposite effect. no matter how you look at it, there is more flexibility and variety possible within the western tradition. this is as incontestable as is mahler's 8th symphony inconceivable in any other musical language. this is not necessarily ethnocentrism, but bald fact. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:14:00 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power/e > >what makes you think i am speculating? > > Well, for one thing, Marshall, where's the "phud" after yer name? > I'm certain that has much ado widdit. i don't use it in informal contexts like this one. mt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 19:59:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: Rap and new wave songs In a message dated 95-12-10 02:35:39 EST, you write: >Hi,,, I will be glad to find someone intrested in rap & new wave songs > so. If there is anyone ,have any information about these songs > I will sooo glad to seeeeeeeeeeeee it > ,THANKs, This person obviously learned his english from the rap crap. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Dec 1995 20:48:58 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Hmm? Did anyone ever reply to me on what program I could use with my KORG X-5 to get full potential? (ie. programs combis etc..) Pesach Lattin REKIA@AOL.COM ----------------------------------------------- FIGHT CENSORSHIP ON THE INTERNET ----------------------------------------------- “We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason if we remember that we are not descended from fearful men, men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes which were, for the momet, unpopular.” - Edward R. Murrow ----------------------------------------------- REKIA ® [DIGITAL PAGER]:> [718.942-3546]< [MESSAGE PAGER]:> [800.645.8776]< [PRIM.E-MAIL]:>[REKIA@AOL.COM]< [ALT.E-MAIL]:>[PHKBC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU]< ----------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 02:05:25 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Rap and new wave songs In-Reply-To: <951210195945_129942317@mail06.mail.aol.com> from "Pesach Lattin" at Dec 10, 95 07:59:47 pm > This person obviously learned his english from the rap crap. > Impoliteness alert. Please don't do that. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:32:35 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: amp Hi Marshall... > one of the virtues of western music is that it is able to assimilate > without losing its character - e.g. blues is obviously western > and impossible to conceive of without the african influence. is there > another musical tradition that has this flexibility? i think not. It's hard to tell how flexiible other traditions have been. The states of Western Europe have conquered moree of the Earth than any other state or empire in the past, and at a time when communications were improving. More recently, though, non-Western popular music (sometimes called 'world' music by record company suits) has been flexible enough to absorb Western musical practices. For example (and I _am_ speculating), did Melanesians and Polynesians sing with seemingly Western tuning and scales _before_ contact with Europeans? Another example: West African music is obviously African and impossible to conceive of (or do) without Western influence (and instruments and recordiing technology). Listen to Youssou N'Dour or even Ko Nimo. (Actually, I know Ko and I know his history!!!) I could understand if many Africans resisted such influences (since they come from the conquerors/exploiters), but I'm sure many realize that you can make bucks (in the West) with this stuff! :) Any thoughts on this (and I don't mean to suggest that money is the only or even the primary reason for these efforts). Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:58:30 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Sean D. O'Donnell" Subject: Re: Rap & New Wave songs In a message dated 95-12-10 02:35:39 EST, you write: >>Hi,,, I will be glad to find someone intrested in rap & new wave songs >> so. If there is anyone ,have any information about these songs >> I will sooo glad to seeeeeeeeeeeee it >> ,THANKs, >This person obviously learned his english from the rap crap. And where did you learn yours? Proper names of languages are _always_ capitalized. Your allegation should read, "This person obviously learned his English from the rap crap." *sigh* I mean, what will be left of the aristocracy if we continue to insult others using defective grammar? geeeeeeeeeeez, brothah! eliter than you, the 'Standard American English' Web Robot (sorry, i realize that the above post is unrelated but had to be said...mmm, actually I'll go sample the above comments at various rates and report on how the sound quality affected the level of sarcasm...sounds like a fitting penance, no? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:54:28 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: art/music/power/e > > >in otherwords your entire point rests on no evidence and is > > speculative???? > > >mt > > > > Well, you started it. > >i did? I was recalling the context-free thinking thread, and about how you said proof is not necessary as you speculated about its practice. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: Rap and new wave songs In a message dated 95-12-11 02:15:52 EST, you write: >Impoliteness alert. Please don't do that. > > --- Joe M. I'm sorry :(. But, this list is for intellegent coversations about electronic music. Please, if you take the time to write E-Mail, at least make sure you use sentences (in English) and not write like a rap song. (No offense meant...) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:54:36 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: um, synths used on Joy Division records >ok, if you don't remember i'm the person that always asks 'anyone know >what synths were used on * (wildcard for group that no one else likes). On a similarly irrelevant and anoraky theme, I notice that the engine noise foley'd for AIRWOLF when the aircraft does a supersonic banking turn seems to be constructed from someone's scream. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:16:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mark Hodgson Subject: amp Ron Hillman wrote: >On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Mark Hodgson wrote: >> >> >jazz is not what i am talking about. there is no element of popular music >> >since elvis which is not directly derived from black musical practice, >> >> Earlier, MT stated (to paraphrase) that the music of the African slaves in >> the antebellum South was an example of how an art form could thrive >> regardless of the ruling class-- > To set the record straight (God, this thread is a spider's web), I only wrote the part beginning with "Earlier." I didn't write the first two lines and don't agree with them. I'm sure that Marshall Tuttle (who did write those lines) would not wish to be confused with me, and although I respect his opinion, I don't wish to be confused with him. OTOH, I have a copy of the PBS-promoted CD _Rhythm, Country, and Blues_, and think it shows how compatible the two traditions can be in the absence of arbitrary pigeon-holing. It has some great tracks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:17:07 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: contextfree speaking from the viewpoint of semiotics, i hold the following position: insofar as thought is the organization of information (this allows thought, information, and the organizing entity, "mind", more latitude than simply the languaging behavior of presumably sentienty organisms), "context-free thought" is an oxymoron. i would suggest that the experience suggested by the phrase and what little has been said about it here by its users be logically separated from the notion of "thought" entirely. if thinking is a process at all, than it must proceed in a context... otherwise it is not "thinking" at all. it is something else. try another word. as far as i understand it, the (zen) buddhist goal is not context-free thought, but no-thought. <--- Entropy Always Wins, And I Like To Be On The Winning Side ---> Eric Harnden (Ronin) harnden@physics.american.edu (202)885-2746 http://physics.american.edu:8001/dka400/www/enh/enh-home.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:34:03 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: jolly files/billboard/d4/sr conv/odd synths jolly files: rats. i thought that jolly roger's dump to the list was a rather pointed joke, and laughed heartily at it, even as it clogged my mailbox. and now i find out it was only a mistake. ah well. billboard: please don't. if you care that much there's a web site here at AU that keeps the billboard update. i don't have the url, but point your browser to www.american.edu, find the computer science department in the college of arts and sciences, and look for todd's page. he was cool web site of the day a couple of months ago, and i think it's still running. d4: sorry, i didn't mean to overstate the point. i actually own one d4, and bought the pther one for the emusic lab where i work... just down the hall. i tend to feel proprietary about the facility, so presented the second d4 in a way that inferred ownership. two would be useful, however... i frequently overshoot the polyphony limit, and have become an expert at tweaking percussion sequences in minute ways so that my crash cymbals don't get clipped. often it's just a matter of shortening all those events... you don't need the gate times, just the attacks. and yes... i would consider the twelve trigger inputs a performance interface. sr conversion: if all you're doing is going 48<->44.1, or workstation<->dat, forget about digital conversion. it's unnecessary, really. just do the dub in analog, recording at the rate you want. if you don't have a toaster plugged into the same circuit or live under a radio tower, you will not add any noise worth considering. sometimes people go to immense lengths to remain "in the digital domain", and it's just not a magical kingdom... if the original's digital, you can do a lot of transfer in analog just fine... the recording media's usually a hell of a lot noisier than any of the actual interconnects (barring a bad mixing console). odd synths: old kraftwerk, faust, and pere ubu were all known for quirky custom gear... well, faust was really more of a tape group, but still... or hell, what about old TD? projekt elektronic was the german moog, and definitely had its own feel, as did ppg, which maybe wasn't homebrew, but it sure was unique you don't hear a lot of it. sample some of that. i've actually got some ppg samples for my dss-1. much funzies. <--- Entropy Always Wins, And I Like To Be On The Winning Side ---> Eric Harnden (Ronin) harnden@physics.american.edu (202)885-2746 http://physics.american.edu:8001/dka400/www/enh/enh-home.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:24:03 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Can you help me? Comments: cc: debdatchp@aol.com In-Reply-To: <951205230856_45903489@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "DebDAtCHP@AOL.COM" at Dec 5, 95 11:14:03 pm DebDAtCHP@AOL.COM writes-- > >A friend told me to contact you to help solve a probem. > >I own a Mac 520c laptop. 8M Ram, 320 HD. I'm running EMagic's Logic 2.5 >with one small problem. > >I don't know what SMPTE Unit to buy to run my computer with my Alesis ADAT. > I'd bought an Opcode Studio 3, but it doesn't like the fact that my Mac only >has one port for Modem and Printer. It wants one for each. > >This unit, it turns out, doesn't like laptops, and so, back to the dealer it >went. But now, what unit is reasonably priced, and compatible with laptops? > >Your response will be greatly appreciated.--Debbie > What you need is an interface that is designed to be able to handle high-speed traffic over only one line. The Studio 3 and anything smaller than that give you up to two MIDI streams by dedicating one each to the two ports. To go beyond that you need a high-speed interface, which can multiplex several MIDI streams donw one serial line at high speed. (You also need a fast enough Powerbook not to choke on it all, and from my limited experiences the 520c should be fine.) They're not as cheap as a Studio 3, but if you must have SMPTE lockup to your ADAT, your only other alternative is a rackmount MTC reader or something, which is like swatting a fly with a jackhammer, if it works at all. There are several possibilities: Opcode's Studio 4 and Studio 5LX, and Mark of the Unicorn's MIDI Time Piece II. I use a Studio 5LX and love it, but haven't done much with SMPTE; I believe one of my fellow Team members has used his MTP II with his 520c, but he also uses a simple non-SMPTE interface with it as well, so I could be wrong. In a nutshell: if your needs can be addressed at all, they will be addressed by one of the interfaces I've mentioned here. Let us know what you find out, okay? mike -- "Some of these guys are violently attached to their synths, aren't they?" "They have to be. They don't have any ideas to be violently attached to." ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com = http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:45:35 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: "Babble" on A-M-P In-Reply-To: from "Roger King" at Dec 8, 95 04:28:00 pm Roger King, fresh from his humiliating MAVs and postings of holiday .MID files, regains major-legue karma points by writing: > >Algorhythmic writing programs, such as "Babble," can be used >to generate your computer's point of view on the issue of >Art-Music-Power. "Babble" takes multiple text files, reads >them for analytical structure, and then begins to babble. > If you save the Art-Music-Power letters as text files and >then run them through "Babble" you come up with lots of >oblique contributions to the issue: > Example 1: "Don't exaggerate commitment to Shamantic > training. The Masks of Monteverdi's operas > probably qualifies. Choruses wail your notes. > who needs rests and jabs. Maybe you don't > have more than your eyes. MT has good friends > gather to take place what must be poised." He certainly has, hasn't he? Well, I bow to the expertise of a master; I no longer need to folow this thread, since babble can now be generated with a mouse click that's more sensible than mine. ;) >To get into algorhythmic prose, without a whole lot of >fuss and bother, just go to Yahoo and enter "Babble" as >a search term. You'll find it there or here. Um, that's 'algorithmic', Roger. 'AlgoRhythms' are what Adam Schabtach plays when his MAX patchers get ahold of his Procussion. :) mike -- Either you need it and can almost die for it, or you have to suffer, solder, or drink. (s. gruhl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com = http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:40:56 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: A/M/P Comments: To: Ron Hillman In-Reply-To: <199512101803.KAA14023@warp10.smartlink.net> You don't think so. Listen to it again. A book by Joseph E. Holloway (1990) called Africanisms in American Culture is a book of essays. One of the shortest yet most suggestive of the chapter is the last. "The African Heritage of White America," which shows that many Africanisms are so integral to southern white culture that they are not recognized, for what they are. Read also Peter Wood's Black Majority (1974). This may not prove that country and western has african influences but I think it suggests the premise that cultures that live so closely together are bound to be influenced and take on "isms" of the other, whether acknowledged or not. Mary Moody http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmoody/Aaron.html On Sun, 10 Dec 1995, Ron Hillman wrote: > >On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Mark Hodgson wrote: > > > >> > >> >jazz is not what i am talking about. there is no element of popular music > >> >since elvis which is not directly derived from black musical practice, > >> > >> Earlier, MT stated (to paraphrase) that the music of the African slaves in > >> the antebellum South was an example of how an art form could thrive > >> regardless of the ruling class-- > > > > > >***ignoring that it was, if anything, ENCOURAGED by the plantation > >owners.*** > > > > > >All right I understand MT's statment, but please explain yours to me. Thanks > > > >Mary Moody > > > >Hey how about country western music. I don't think it got its roots from Africa > > RON HILLMAN > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:58:13 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: relevance at various times and in various guises the issue of relevance has arisen here, most recently in the question of the technological conditions for our music, and also in repeated pushes toward "political" discourse in this forum. allow me to quote here the opening words of Robert Venturi from his "Complexity and Contradiction in Architecture." the aesthetic and social sensibilities of architecture have always been important to me as an artist in general, and as an emusician in particular, and Venturi here says something that resonates for me: I make no special attempt to relate acrhitecture to other things. I have not tried to "improve the connections between science and technology on the one hand, and the humanities and social sciences on the other... and make of architecture a more human social art."(Robert Geddes) I try to talk about architecture rather than around it. Sir John Summerson has referred to the architects' obsession with "the importance, not of architecture, but of the _relation _ of architecture to other things."(Summerson) He has pointed out that in this century architects have substituted the "mischievous analogy" for the eclectic imitation of the nineteenth century, and have been staking a claim for architecture rather than producing architecture.(Ibid.) The result has been diagrammatic planning. The architect's ever diminishing power and his growing ineffectualness in shaping the whole environment can perhaps be reversed, ironically, by narrowing his concerns and concentrating on his own job. Perhaps then relationships and power will take care of themselves. I accept what seem to me architecture's inherent limitations, and attempt to concentrate on the difficult particulars within it rather than the easier abstractions about it "... because the arts belong (as the ancients said) to the practical and not the speculative intelligence, there is no surrogate for being on the job."(David Jones) <--- Entropy Always Wins, And I Like To Be On The Winning Side ---> Eric Harnden (Ronin) harnden@physics.american.edu (202)885-2746 http://physics.american.edu:8001/dka400/www/enh/enh-home.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 14:13:29 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Dr. Kirk Corey" Subject: Re: art/music/power/e In-Reply-To: <9512081519.0LIVN00@torii.com> On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Marshall Tuttle wrote: > > You're kidding, right? Dance music (and dancing itself) was specifically > > forbidden in the church. Do you think for a moment that common folks in > > the dark ages sang chant while getting plastered at the local watering > > hole? Sacred and secular music were plenty distinct long before the > > Council of Trent. > > actually this is demonstrably false. there is an enormous body of evidence > to disprove your assertions from the motets which use chant as a basis for all > kinds of humorous display to the parody masses which led to the council of > trent. the council itself ended by making no technical comments whatever > on the use of music in church, but solely on the behaviour of musicians.... > which contests the first point you are making. I'm not sure what you think you're disproving here. Motets based on chant and the chants themselves are quite distinct, as are parody masses and the secular tunes upon which they are based. (I wonder whether future generations will see no distinction among the renditions of the "Star Spangled Banner" as interpreted by Jimi Hendrix, a local gathering of DAR members, and Roseanne). As for the question of technical comments-- of course the council made no technical comments. The council was a meeting of prelates, not of choirmasters. They didn't use technical terms because they didn't understand them. Expecting technical terms from the Council of Trent would be like expecting a lecture on System Exclusive messages from the Vatican. Although parody masses did lead to the Council of Trent, so did the problem of Protestantism. Once again, music and power intertwined. As for chant itself, consider the following (David Hughes, "A History of European Music", 1974, p. 5): "The ultimate predominance of the Roman liturgy was primarily the result of political, not ecclesiastical, circumstances. During the eighth century, the Frankish kings Pepin and Charlemagne needed the help of the papacy for the furtherance of their territorial ambitions. In order to gain it, they began introducing the Roman rite into their kingdom, at the expense of the native Gallican usage." In other words, "In order to suck up to the Pope, they used His ritual and music instead of theirs." Because the Pope's was somehow better musically? No. > > The point of blacklisting things of value is being demonstrated > > right now...... > > agreed, but i see little evidence of it prior to this century in the way many > are projecting it onto the past. in the past the media actually had much > less power than they do now, so there was less to deal with. (yes i know > about verdi and his problems with the censors - but he seems to have gotten > around it quite easily too). I was referring to Mozart. That's 2 centuries ago. I don't know why you assume the media held less power in the past. As I recall, the early Greek philosophers (e.g. Aristotle, Plato) were constantly going on about which types of music were good and bad for society in a moral way. These questions clearly did not originate in the present century. > > One can't show you a recorded history of music whose history wasn't > > recorded, or at least preserved. > > in otherwords your entire point rests on no evidence and is speculative???? Well, I have no evidence that any human died of old age in the year 5048 B.C. However, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. :) Your argument is that the best composers are the ones who survive. You invited anyone to disprove you by citing a better composer. How can one cite a composer who hasn't survived? That's silly. To paraphrase Mr. Spock, "Your assumption that an unfalsifiable statement is a true one is most illogical." You like dead German composers. So do I. We agree there. However, I can't agree with your attempt to prove the supremacy of Western music based on a Western analysis of non-Western music. That's pure hogwash. If you try to analyze Bach using ragas as a metric, you will find that Bach is inferior to Shankar. So what? The problem here is that you conclude that Western music is superior because you compare it to Western music. That's tautologous; it neither proves nor disproves anything whatsoever. Also, to judge all music within the context of Western music on the one hand, and then to advocate context-free thinking on the other, is quite perplexing.... -- Kirk P.S. I'll have a context-free rebuttal at some point in the future, but I need to conduct the Yahoo search that Roger mentioned, first. ;) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Art/Power!!!/? Nothing could be more powerful than a brigade of kilted Black Watch walking toward you to do battle, weapons held high, accompanied by those wonderful pipes droaning on in cadence to those distinctive, dry, rythmic snares and graceful, somewhat muffled low bass drumming. Sure put the frights to their foes. My friends, that's power. It is said that many a Scottish warrior welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! I'm thinking too it may be better to choose a merciful death rather than having to suffer another day of this thread! Am I wandering? Alan Bookmiller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:06:32 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: Sample Rate Conversion I'd like to thank everybody who responded to my sample rate conversion question. I suppose that I ought to point out that I am still in the dark ages. I do not have a MAC and the PC I have is so old that it wouldn't know what to do with a 641st kbyte, not to mention (Windows95 - at least five years). When I said that I'm mastering a project, what I should have said is that I'm recording cassettes, DATs, and CDs to my DAT. No software involved and nothing that doesn't work in real time would be viable. Since I only have three songs submitted on CD, I decided to record these and the cassettes from the analog inputs at 48kHz. The DATs are already at 48kHz so I can do these in the digital domain. The final product will be a 48kHz DAT master that will be used to make cassettes (quantity = 100). The person on the MMML list who has the ability to put this tape on his web site (internal to AT&T only) also has a rate converter. Since this is the only reason to convert to 44.1kHz, I'll leave it up to him if he wants to bother. Thanks all! Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 18:20:21 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jeremy Matthew Johnson Subject: K2000, PC, and SCSI- Can't they all just get along? It's time to upgrade the old PC and I would like my new computer to marry well with the K2000 I see in my future. I would really appreciate any feedback! * Has anyone had problems with any particular SCSI card and the K2000? * The list of Kurtweil compatible CD-ROM drives published on the Sweetwater site is rather slim, and the drives posted seem to be older models. Has anyone had success with newer Sony, Toshiba or other manufacturer's drives? * I would like to share an internal SCSI CD-ROM (installed in the PC, of course :) between the PC and K2000. I have found some documentation regarding a similar Mac setup, and I see that much would apply to the PC also. Any suggestions/comments on this configuration? * Any suggestions for a SCSI card and CD-ROM drive for use in the above setup? Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:38:06 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ron Hillman Subject: Re: Rap & New Wave songs >In a message dated 95-12-10 02:35:39 EST, you write: > >>>Hi,,, I will be glad to find someone intrested in rap & new wave songs >>> so. If there is anyone ,have any information about these songs >>> I will sooo glad to seeeeeeeeeeeee it >>> ,THANKs, > >I'm interested in rap. I think you can hear the most infectious rhythm tracs in music today on some rap music cuts.Not to mention the hi-tech equipment that is being used to produce rap music. But I am not a poet and sometimes tire of the actual rap. My son is involved in some new wave music. Help me out if I am wrong but on the commercial side were talking Nirvana and the not so commercial side, well check out a BAM magazine. Ron Hillman Hollywood International Talents reh@smartlink.net RON HILLMAN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 17:39:11 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Re: "Babble" on A-M-P In-Reply-To: <199512111845.KAA00584@netcom23.netcom.com> You guys are a bunch of slithy tobes. I'm taking my wabe and gimboling on outa here. You've taken brillig just a little too far! 8-> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:55:10 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ron Hillman Subject: Re: Art/Power!!!/? >Nothing could be more powerful than a brigade of kilted Black Watch walking >toward you to do battle, weapons held high, accompanied by those wonderful >pipes droaning on in cadence to those distinctive, dry, rythmic snares and >graceful, somewhat muffled low bass drumming. Sure put the frights to their >foes. My friends, that's power. It is said that many a Scottish warrior >welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! >I'm thinking too it may be better to choose a merciful death rather than >having to suffer another day of this thread! > >Am I wandering? > >Alan Bookmiller > >How about a diesel powered generator,two guitars with 100 watt Marshalls, electric bass, and a double bass drum set in Bosnia RON HILLMAN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:12:23 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Contextfree > insofar as thought is the organization of information (this > allows thought, information, and the organizing entity, "mind", > more latitude than simply the languaging behavior of presumably > sentienty organisms), "context-free thought" is an oxymoron. according to your definition you are of course correct, but why limit thought to the organization of information? > as far as i understand it, the (zen) buddhist goal is not > context-free thought, but no-thought. don't think i mentioned the word zen (which is japanese for nothing/empty/....). zen is different from buddha. i can't believe anybody cares enough about this to argue it! go ahead and deny it.... who cares? if you have found no use for it so far why rock the boat? mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:29:02 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Art/power!!!/? > I'm thinking too it may be better to choose a merciful death rather > than having to suffer another day of this thread! > agreed! > Am I wandering? no just inspiring! mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 23:17:24 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: Rap & New Wave songs In a message dated 95-12-11 11:37:16 EST, you write: >mean, what will be left of the aristocracy if we continue to insult others >using defective grammar? geeeeeeeeeeez, brothah! > >eliter than you, > >the 'Standard American English' Web Robot > >(sorry, i realize that the above post is unrelated but had to be said...mmm, >actually I'll go sample the above comments at various rates and report on how >the sound quality affected the level of sarcasm...sounds like a fitting >penance, no? *grin* -- English. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 19:48:01 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Re: art/music/power/e > I was recalling the context-free thinking thread, and about how you > said > proof is not necessary as you speculated about its practice. a) i cited several sources b) i was not speculating c) there is no point in proving that to anyone, nor does it have any bearing on the discussion of the role of art in society. mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 11:08:18 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Chris Conn Organization: SAS Institute Inc., Austin, Texas Subject: piano and keyboard cultures I've got a newbie question, hope it's not an old one! As a beginner keyboard player I'm wondering what the differences are between the cultures of piano and keyboard players, or if there really is much difference? Interested in your ideas... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher Mark Conn Love it the way it is. sascmc@unx.sas.com - Thaddeus Golas, 'The Lazy Man's Guide Austin, Texas to Enlightenment' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 07:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Re: Art/Power!!!/? >>Nothing could be more powerful than a brigade of kilted Black Watch walking >>toward you to do battle, weapons held high, accompanied by those wonderful >>pipes droaning on in cadence to those distinctive, dry, rythmic snares and >>graceful, somewhat muffled low bass drumming. Sure put the frights to their >>foes. My friends, that's power. It is said that many a Scottish warrior >>welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! >>I'm thinking too it may be better to choose a merciful death rather than >>having to suffer another day of this thread! >> >>Am I wandering? >> >>Alan Bookmiller >> >>How about a diesel powered generator,two guitars with 100 watt Marshalls, >electric bass, and a double bass drum set in Bosnia > >RON HILLMAN -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Excellent! I can see the headlines now "ZZ TOP DECIDING FACTOR IN END TO CONFLICT IN BOSNIA!" Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 09:25:57 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: a/m/p/pipes/death Alan Bookmiller mentioned: > foes. My friends, that's power. It is said that many a Scottish warrior > welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! Have you ever wondered why bagpipers walk when they play? It is so they can get away from the sound, of course! 8-> Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: Rap and new wave songs In a message dated 95-12-12 02:48:57 EST, you write: >ey... Lattttttin.. who do you think yourself to call (RAP) music as >a crap . I think the crap one is your empty essays that shows your narrowmind >you are just A (CRAB). > > :-) Intellegent Response there. Lets just leave this alone, it isn't producing anything usefull... (kinda of like rap) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:16:49 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures In a message dated 95-12-12 07:14:28 EST, you write: >As a beginner keyboard player I'm wondering what the >differences are between the cultures of piano and >keyboard players, or if there really is much difference? > >Interested in your ideas... > > I believe that Keyboard players are subject to electrocution much more than piano players. Something to do with static electricity and rugs? REKIA ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:03:07 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: a/m/p/pipes/death In-Reply-To: <9512121425.AA01201@acropolis> from "william.b.fox" at Dec 12, 95 09:25:57 am william.b.fox writes-- > >Alan Bookmiller mentioned: >> foes. My friends, that's power. It is said that many a Scottish warrior >> welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! > >Have you ever wondered why bagpipers walk when they play? It is so they >can get away from the sound, of course! 8-> "Others, when the bagpipe sings i' the nose, can scarce contain their urine." --Shakespeare I think we may be into dead-horse-becoming-greasy-spot mode, folks. I'm not going to tell people to take it to email yet, but recent volleys haven't demonstrated what We Scientists (cough, cough) would call "convergence;" no one seems to be getting closer to agreement or even compromise on this issue, and running around in circles makes me dizzy. mike -- Either you need it and can almost die for it, or you have to suffer, solder, or drink. (s. gruhl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com = http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:15:20 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Rap and new wave songs In-Reply-To: <951212111644_131280995@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Pesach Lattin" at Dec 12, 95 11:16:49 am Pesach Lattin writes-- > >In a message dated 95-12-12 02:48:57 EST, you write: > >>ey... Lattttttin.. who do you think yourself to call (RAP) music as >>a crap . I think the crap one is your empty essays that shows your >narrowmind >>you are just A (CRAB). >> >:-) Intellegent Response there. Lets just leave this alone, it isn't >producing anything usefull... >(kinda of like rap) Assuming one co-moderator wasn't enough, here's the other one diving in: You two disagree on the validity of rap music and you could probably find a bunch of other things to disagree on. If you must, do it in private email. Hattan, namecalling is not appropriate behavior here. Please stop it. Pesach, I will not censor discussion of ANY music style. Please drop it. mike -- Either you need it and can almost die for it, or you have to suffer, solder, or drink. (s. gruhl) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com = http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:35:59 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DebDAtCHP@AOL.COM Subject: A PRINTER 4 MY MAC Comments: To: LNQX28A@prodigy.com, SAYLORJ@aol.com, Bbot@aol.com, Traconeer@aol.com, QBallHead@aol.com, DGianeto@aol.com, DoloresF7@aol.com, MrHi5555@aol.com, K12ELCRG@vaxc.hofstra.edu, HarveyG421@aol.com, HJC723@aol.com, JCitron538@aol.com, citronj@mordor.stuy.edu, DOOOODE@aol.com, JPeel@netcom.com, MICKEEMAUS@aol.com, bellino@veebs.bu.edu, Honeof3@aol.com, Zantall@aol.com I might've asked this before, but I'll ask again. I need a printer. I can afford up to about $4-500 after I sell my Atari. What's the best buy? Consumer Reports says the HP 560. Anyone agree? Know any better? I need to print text, and music, and eventually pictures. Thanks!---Debbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:43:21 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: A/M/P the convergence! OK, OK, as Mike suggests, lets converge (before we're sentenced to Email hell). Just to set the record straight, I really love the pipes and drums. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Borrowing from Brian Eno, Wired, May 95, pg.207,"In the traditional classical view, art objects are containers of some kind of asthetic value. This value was put into them by the artist, who got it from God or from the Muse or from the universal unconscious, and then it radiated back out to those who beheld it. It was thus that missionaries played gramophone records of Bach to Africans in the expectation that it would civilize them, as though they would be somehow enriched by the flood of goodness washing over them. We now see the arrogance of this assumption, but I think few people understand what is really wrong about it, aside from its political incorrectness. What's wrong about it is that cultural objects have no notable identity outside of that which we confer upon them. This is a controversial and volitile statement. Their value is entirely a product of the interaction that we have with them." Mr. Eno goes on to say, "Things become artworks not because they contain value, but because we're prepared to see them as artworks, to allow ourselves to have art experiences from them, before them, to frame them in contexts that confer value on them." Eno believes that art doesn't make any difference, but on-the-other-hand that's what makes it important. Art, music and politics don't really matter unless we participate in them. Not everyone's idea of "frame of context" is the same. A perfect example is the other thread flowing through this list concerning RAP. Can we expect someone who lives in the context of the classics to really appreciate this other artform? How can it happen; a square peg will never fit in a round hole without extensive modification (education?) - and vice versa. I believe that the art/power/politics thread started with a basic assumption that those who controlled the "frame of context" basically ruled and stipulated just what was acceptable art and what wasn't. Isn't the "frame of context" in this case really a societal standard? Every culture had and has ever changing standards which affect a given society's acceptance or nonacceptance of art/music/politics. So, how do we converge at this point - I say by simply keeping an open mind. Cast off your preconceived notions, try to perceive from the standpoint of no influence, difficult as that is. Listen and evaluate differing viewpoints, really look at all art, listen to the different variety and styles of music. If all society did this, would not the standard cease to exist? Would something more pwerful take its place, like total acceptance of all creative efforts. Respect? Alan Bookmiller tabbooks@pa.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 18:18:06 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: A/M/P the convergence! Comments: To: "Alan M. Bookmiller" In-Reply-To: This is good Alan. Thanks for including "Brian Eno, Wired, May 95..." Mary Moody On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Alan M. Bookmiller wrote: > OK, OK, as Mike suggests, lets converge (before we're sentenced to Email > hell). Just to set the record straight, I really love the pipes and drums. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Borrowing from Brian Eno, Wired, May 95, pg.207,"In the traditional > classical view, art objects are containers of some kind of asthetic value. > This value was put into them by the artist, who got it from God or from the > Muse or from the universal unconscious, and then it radiated back out to > those who beheld it. It was thus that missionaries played gramophone > records of Bach to Africans in the expectation that it would civilize them, > as though they would be somehow enriched by the flood of goodness washing > over them. We now see the arrogance of this assumption, but I think few > people understand what is really wrong about it, aside from its political > incorrectness. What's wrong about it is that cultural objects have no > notable identity outside of that which we confer upon them. This is a > controversial and volitile statement. Their value is entirely a product of > the interaction that we have with them." Mr. Eno goes on to say, "Things > become artworks not because they contain value, but because we're prepared > to see them as artworks, to allow ourselves to have art experiences from > them, before them, to frame them in contexts that confer value on them." > Eno believes that art doesn't make any difference, but on-the-other-hand > that's what makes it important. Art, music and politics don't really matter > unless we participate in them. Not everyone's idea of "frame of context" is > the same. A perfect example is the other thread flowing through this list > concerning RAP. Can we expect someone who lives in the context of the > classics to really appreciate this other artform? How can it happen; a > square peg will never fit in a round hole without extensive modification > (education?) - and vice versa. I believe that the art/power/politics thread > started with a basic assumption that those who controlled the "frame of > context" basically ruled and stipulated just what was acceptable art and > what wasn't. Isn't the "frame of context" in this case really a societal > standard? Every culture had and has ever changing standards which affect a > given society's acceptance or nonacceptance of art/music/politics. So, how > do we converge at this point - I say by simply keeping an open mind. Cast > off your preconceived notions, try to perceive from the standpoint of no > influence, difficult as that is. Listen and evaluate differing viewpoints, > really look at all art, listen to the different variety and styles of > music. If all society did this, would not the standard cease to exist? > Would something more pwerful take its place, like total acceptance of all > creative efforts. Respect? > > Alan Bookmiller > tabbooks@pa.net > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:26:45 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Dave Jaffe Subject: Assets '96 Information ASSETS'96 The 2nd ACM/SIGCAPH Conference on Assistive Technologies -=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=--=- April 11-12, 1996 Waterfront Center Hotel Vancouver, British Columbia Canada Sponsored by the ACM's Special Interest Group on Computers and the Physically Handicapped, ASSETS'96 will be the second in a new series of conferences whose goal is to provide a forum where researchers and developers, from academia and industry, can meet to exchange ideas and report on new developments relating to computer-based systems to help people with disabilities. The conference scope spans disabilities and special needs of all kinds, including but not limited to: sensory (hearing, vision); motor (orthopedic); cognitive (learning, speech, mental); and emotional. Further information about this conference, including abstracts of accepted papers, registration materials (available soon), and local sights can be found at: http://www.cs.rpi.edu:80/assets/ ASSETS'96 will immediately precede CHI'96, which will take place on April 13-18, 1996. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:19:31 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Contextfree >i can't believe anybody cares enough about this to argue it! go ahead and >deny it.... who cares? if you have found no use for it so far why rock the >boat? Because you originally posited context-free thought as real and possible. Clearly, people here feel tht this cannot go uncontested, or that it may be (or is) misleading. What do you expect? Any of us making such claims would attract opposition. You have opposed some of my thoughts on a/m/p. I expect it. I welocme it. (It's fun, too!) Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 22:01:51 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Catherine D. Mardis.User." Subject: Re: amp I'm sorry , but all cultures wether western or not have the ability to assimilate. We have assimilated a lot of non-western aspects of music into our own culture. There was a whole movement around the 1920's that relied on this to create new sounds, rhythms, etc. Without this western music would still be the same. Folk music, music of the people not of the courts, was purely oral/aural, and flexible to change. Pop music takes different music styles and uses them along with our western ideas. Don't you think it is the same around lthe world, throughout history. Maybe I have misunderstood your intention. I have been know to read to fast. If I have, then you realize this already. I would be interested in a furthur discussion on this wefther you agree or not. It would give me time to get examples in order. A modern band with non-western influences would be Rusted Root, more can be given. Write soon, Cat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 20:51:47 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: review/gamelan allow me to recommend a CD called "Bang on a Can Live" (emergency music, composers recordings inc #628), a compilation of music from a 'minimalism' festival held in ny in '87. the piece that drew me to the disc was "evening chant" by william doerrfeld. he plays an emulator, which has been programmed with a different sample under each key, most of the samples being vocal... grunts, breaths, shouts, and the like. he plays a complex, heavily rhythmic, changing pattern that, when it really gets going, sounds like einsterzende neubaten doing a balinese kecak. you gotta love it. my favorite piece on the album is actually non-electronic, a completely frivolous bit called "failing: a very difficult piece for solo string bass", in which the performer, while playing, reads a text that is mostly about the difficulty of reading the text and playing the bass at the same time. silly, self-referential to the point of absurdity, and well-presented. there are several pieces on the disc that either incorporate or rely on electronic timbres, some in a deliberately dissonant way, some as viable adjunct to live acoustical performance. check it out. speaking of balinese, and in the vein of western/other musical traditions/crossfertilization, i have heard that, while we (western, at least those among us who fall into the category for the purposes of this discussion group) emusicians now have all these nifty toys that do various nonwestern scales (other than quarter tone, which because it just requires a +/- 50 cent rescaling has been pretty easy to obtain for a while now), particularly those from the gamelan orchestra, the influx into those other geographical areas/musical markets of conventional electronic music gear (in the pacific basin, mostly of japanese manufacture, i believe, with a preponderance of casio) has changed the actual music they make... the 'native' bands now tune themselves to the keyboards they're buying to fill out their sound. <--- Entropy Always Wins, And I Like To Be On The Winning Side ---> Eric Harnden (Ronin) harnden@physics.american.edu (202)885-2746 http://physics.american.edu:8001/dka400/www/enh/enh-home.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:14:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Pesach Lattin Subject: Re: A PRINTER 4 MY MAC In a message dated 95-12-12 17:14:56 EST, you write: > might've asked this before, but I'll ask again. I need a printer. I can >afford up to about $4-500 after I sell my Atari. > > Hey. you'll only get $5 for the atari... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:35:02 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Rap In-Reply-To: <199512121815.KAA27214@netcom23.netcom.com> On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > Hattan, namecalling is not appropriate behavior here. Please stop it. > Pesach, I will not censor discussion of ANY music style. Please drop it. Mike, thank you for putting stop to what was becoming a childish fight. However, I would welcome a serious discussion of the merits, implications, and drawbacks of rap. I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent meaning. A combination of the two is be undeniably artistic to me. But I can't deny that SOME rap has a terrific charm to it. I would like to separate this thread from a discussion of New Wave music, which I find completely pathetic (so far). Let the opinions fly. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:31:40 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Lunney Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 12 Dec 1995 to 13 Dec 1995 In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:00:01 -0500 from Wow, the quote from Eno in _Wired_ was amusing. It seems that the deconstructionist crowd are now having a go at music. David Lunney Department of Chemistry East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858 USA VOICE: 919-758-6453 919-328-6713 FAX: 919-758-0967 919-328-6210 CHLUNNEY@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:45:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: virtual John III (Read now the words of Cyberbot Virtual John III The real one unsubscribed. The virtual one lives in infamy.) Q: How have the political factions of western civilisation influenced the aesthetic aspects of musical composition from medeival times to present? VJ3: LOOK--I'm a fuggin second generation Southern Italian, and I don't give two fuggin ounces of care here what alls you guys say about this. Hey! Who was it gave people permission to get on this fuggin list and type all this crap got nuttin ta fuggin do wid synths or Korgs or anything besides a half a ton na pile of bull crap?!! When I'm out ridin my cycle in this bullshid cold, an' I see some foxy piece of pizza crossin' the street, you think I'm gonna be thinkin' bout fourteen century polyfunny? Fug it, I'm outa here. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 14:28:58 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: Rap Comments: To: George Allaman In-Reply-To: Rap has been compared to spirituals, in that some, not all convey or speak on social ills, and often have messages that are cloaked, and speak of a sort of redemption. I am not really expressing what I have actually heard during a discussion, because I tend to forget details at times. I heard a brief discussion of rap music in a Bill Moyers documentary on Bernice Johnson Reagon. At the end of their discussion on freedom songs, spirituals, Bill Moyers asked about rap songs and their lyrics and Ms. Reagon stated the views I so poorly put forth. The Documentary on video tape is called "The Songs are Free", its excellent. Mary Moody Vigo County Public Library Terre Haute, Indiana 47807 http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmoody/Aaron.html On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, George Allaman wrote: > On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > > > Hattan, namecalling is not appropriate behavior here. Please stop it. > > > Pesach, I will not censor discussion of ANY music style. Please drop it. > > Mike, thank you for putting stop to what was becoming a childish fight. > However, I would welcome a serious discussion of the merits, > implications, and drawbacks of rap. > > I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial > reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at > all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less > repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select > their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent > meaning. A combination of the two is be undeniably artistic to me. But I > can't deny that SOME rap has a terrific charm to it. > > I would like to separate this thread from a discussion of New Wave music, > which I find completely pathetic (so far). > > Let the opinions fly. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > |George Allaman | | > |Tech Writer | |Denver, Colorado | quip which somehow | > |Office (303) 624-1619 | summarizes my life | > |Home (303) 771-8060 | philosophy> | > |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | > |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:22:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re: Rap Comments: To: gallama@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent meaning. Gee, if that is REALLY pushed to the extreme, something VERY interesting might result. Now it might get problimatic if you allow for many different languages simultaneously, plus the odd nonsense word or two, but that might be fun, too. You know, disco Kurt Schwitters or something. A combination of the two is be undeniably artistic to me. But I can't deny that SOME rap has a terrific charm to it. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:54:08 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Rap In-Reply-To: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Mary Charlene Moody wrote: > Rap has been compared to spirituals, in that some, not all convey or > speak on social ills, and often have messages that are cloaked, and speak > of a sort of redemption. I am not really expressing what I have actually > heard during a discussion, because I tend to forget details at times. Oooooh!! I like this! An examined insight. It will definitely increase my appreciation of rap, much more than any petty fighting and ad hominem arguments would. Thank you, Mary. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:17:19 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial > reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at > all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less > repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select > their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent > meaning. > Gee, if that is REALLY pushed to the extreme, something VERY interesting > might result. Now it might get problimatic if you allow for many different > languages simultaneously, plus the odd nonsense word or two, but that > might be fun, too. You know, disco Kurt Schwitters or something. > A combination of the two is be undeniably artistic to me. But I can't deny > that SOME rap has a terrific charm to it. Ummm... I'm not sure I get this. Are you being sarcastic? If you're trying to make a non-point to illustrate the poetry of rap, you've confused me. Maybe I'm looking for meaning in your message where there is intentionally none? Sorry - I'm not being sarcastic, I really tried to understand what you wrote and I don't. Could you explain? This borders on the larger subject of nonsense lyrics. To me this is perfectly legitimate art form (not that an art form has to be legitimate at all, forget about my opinion!). I love Jabberwocky, Alice in Wonderland, many of the songs on Graceland (such as "Bodyguard) and some by James Taylor (such as "Sun on the Moon" - I think that's the title), that I can think of offhand, where my mind searches in vain for a meaning, only to find that it was a friendly joke on me. But I see a big difference between lyrics that are carefully selected to intentionally evade any point at all and those that are merely chosen for their metric fit, feebly trying to make a point and then failing. This is art, I suppose, but it's art that is not finished or well thought out, to me. I love the Beach Boys, but I have to say that some of their early lyrics are awful. It seems obvious to me that they wrote the music and then just stuck some words in that fit, without any attention to whether or not they made sense or pointed to a central theme. This is the problem I have with most rap. Sting, on the other hand, writes great lyrics. Even when I can't figure out what exactly what he is trying to convey, the images he evokes are powerful and haunting. Anybody agree? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:22:27 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Can you help me? >The Studio 3 and anything >smaller than that give you up to two MIDI streams by dedicating one >each to the two ports. To go beyond that you need a high-speed >interface, which can multiplex several MIDI streams donw one serial >line at high speed. I don't hold with this high speed crap. I tried running my MTP, my MTP-II, and my Studio-4 at high speed at various times over the last five years. Never worked properly. It requires indefinite buffering from the Mac->I/F end, otherwise single-device sysex will fall over. Look look, see see, see Peter do sysex, see Peter's Micro-Wave crash, see Jane's PowerBook crap all over its copy-protected librarian program. I ended up running each of my multiplexor interfaces at normal speed. Does it work? Of course not. But it doesn't work less badly than before. And the S4 muddles along quite happily now. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 16:16:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Mueller Subject: Re[2]: Rap Comments: To: gallama@LOOKOUT.ECTE.USWC.USWEST.COM On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > >>I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial > >>> reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at >>> all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less > >>repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select > >>their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent > >>>meaning. >> Gee, if that is REALLY pushed to the extreme, something VERY interesting >> might result. Now it might get problimatic if you allow for many different ]> > languages simultaneously, plus the odd nonsense word or two, but that >> might be fun, too. You know, disco Kurt Schwitters or something. >> A combination of the two is be undeniably artistic to me. But I can't deny > > that SOME rap has a terrific charm to it. Ummm... I'm not sure I get this. Are you being sarcastic? If you're trying to make a non-point to illustrate the poetry of rap, you've confused me. Maybe I'm looking for meaning in your message where there is intentionally none? Sorry - I'm not being sarcastic, I really tried to understand what you wrote and I don't. Could you explain? I was trying to say that if you come up with nonesense lyric, or lyrics so complex that they are pushing the envelope of understanding (by, for example, having so many different things going on at the same time), and place them in such strict rhythmic environment such as what rap does, you might come up with something interesting (I must admit it then would be especially interesting if the metrical situation of the text and the rhythm section were in conflict, but I didn't mention that above) >This borders on the larger subject of nonsense lyrics. To me this is >perfectly legitimate art form (not that an art form has to be legitimate >at all, forget about my opinion!). I love Jabberwocky, Alice in >Wonderland, many of the songs on Graceland (such as "Bodyguard) and some >by James Taylor (such as "Sun on the Moon" - I think that's the title), >that I can think of offhand, where my mind searches in vain for a >meaning, only to find that it was a friendly joke on me. >But I see a big difference between lyrics that are carefully selected to >intentionally evade any point at all and those that are merely chosen for >their metric fit, feebly trying to make a point and then failing. >This is art, I suppose, but it's art that is not finished or well thought >out, to me. I have to agree with you on this point. >I love the Beach Boys, but I have to say that some of their early lyrics >are awful. It seems obvious to me that they wrote the music and then >just stuck some words in that fit, without any attention to whether or >not they made sense or pointed to a central theme. This is the problem I >have with most rap. >Sting, on the other hand, writes great lyrics. Even when I can't figure >out what exactly what he is trying to convey, the images he evokes are >powerful and haunting. >Anybody agree? Actually Sting's music isn't really my cup of tea. Now Captain Beefheart is another story . -Peter ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:22:35 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Art/Power!!!/? >It is said that many a Scottish warrior >welcomed death on the field rather than suffer another night of the pipes! You mean, many an English warrior, sassenach. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:26:44 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: A/M/P the convergence! Thanks to Alan for his contribution. The quote from Eno was a good one; there are other things he says in that interview which annoyed me very much but Harry Haecker (I think it was) and I nutted _that_ out months ago. Which of us will be the first to release a concept album called Art/Music/Power? :-) Regards, David msudr@lure.latrobe.edu.au ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:42:29 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "i.s.o.r. magazine!" Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: what the hell is "new wave?" ok i listen to eletronic music w/ drum machines and people singing, so i'am i a new waver now. Why the hell are you people bloated on this theory of 'genre?' oh, wait so i like rap to i guess. Who the hell on this listserv is going to write lyrics more in touch w/ me? proper dos or barry mantilo (sp!)? i hope no person, cuz this is emusic listserv right, not the rhythm is scarry listserv. ~love, eric allen seale~ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 19:11:26 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "David W. Dial" Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures On Dec. 12, 1995, Christopher Mark Conn wrote: >I've got a newbie question, hope it's not an old one! > >As a beginner keyboard player I'm wondering what the >differences are between the cultures of piano and >keyboard players, or if there really is much difference? Goshoroonies, yes! The divisions might not be the ones you'd expect. First of all, there is a division between those who study classical music literature on and for the piano--who stick strictly to the notes printed on the sheet music--and those who study, compose or perform other types of music on both piano and keyboards. These people study melody, rhythm, chords and such as applied to various genres and combine these elements for performance. Usually, no two performances are alike. The second type of performer can take a lead sheet--melody line, chord markings, and words--and create a unique rendition, BUT may not be able to adequate sight read a simple classic piano composition. The reverse can also be true: a classical-type pianist may be able to sight read Chopin beautifully but not have the foggiest notion of what to do with a lead sheet. There are all sorts of shadings and flavors of these two basic types of performers. I would also point out that not all knowledge can be found in a college setting. There is much activity outside of academia that one might miss if one stays on campus all the time. I hope this helps you--or at least piques your curiosity. Dave Dial ao369@lafn.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:19:46 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Alex Kharlamov Subject: Re: sampling rate convertion In a message dated 95-12-11 20:11:33 EST, you write: >sr conversion: if all you're doing is going 48<->44.1, or >workstation<->dat, forget about digital conversion. it's >unnecessary, really. just do the dub in analog, recording at the >rate you want. if you don't have a toaster plugged into the same >circuit or live under a radio tower, you will not add any noise >worth considering. sometimes people go to immense lengths to >remain "in the digital domain", and it's just not a magical >kingdom... if the original's digital, you can do a lot of >transfer in analog just fine... the recording media's usually a >hell of a lot noisier than any of the actual interconnects >(barring a bad mixing console). Allow me to disagree here. Have you tryed to do what you've described? I have. We're not talking about noise problems when re-recording from 48 to 44.1 in analog. We're talking about high frequencies sounding... weird. There's no other word for it. They are still there, but they sound like rumpled tin-foil. Cymbals, bells, hi-hats, strings, get literally "thorn apart." It's not too bad in the first generation dub. But when you go from 48 DAT to 44.1 hard-disk, edit/master there, and then go back 44.1 hard-disk to 44.1 DAT via analog (for analog compression and other sonic enhancement) -- that's when your ears start really hurting. Don't do that. And if you do, keep in mind that this is just a test, and plan your time accordingly (you'll have to re-do the whole process digitally through software sr convertions). P.S.- DAT I used was Taskam DA30-mkII, and hard-disk system/AD/DA -- Soundscape SSHDR1 -- one of the cleanest convertors on the market. ttfn Alex Kharlamov ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:18:58 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: A PRINTER 4 MY MAC In-Reply-To: <951212231412_52604572@mail04.mail.aol.com> from "Pesach Lattin" at Dec 12, 95 11:14:47 pm > Hey. you'll only get $5 for the atari... > Um. Private mail. Think about it, won't you? Thank you. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 02:32:57 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: from "George Allaman" at Dec 13, 95 01:17:19 pm < interesting meta-rap idea removed > > Ummm... I'm not sure I get this. Are you being sarcastic? If you're trying > to make a non-point to illustrate the poetry of rap, you've confused me. > Maybe I'm looking for meaning in your message where there is intentionally > none? Sorry - I'm not being sarcastic, I really tried to understand what > you wrote and I don't. Could you explain? > May I? I think this is indeed a fascinating possibility. I however am not sufficiently talented in this area to even make a stab at it. The idea of a vocal which, thought composed of real words, is ONLY a rhythm track is alluring, to say the least. It puts me in mind of a track on Zappa's first album, "It Can't Happen Here". There is a semi-coherent flow, but there are fantastic vocal effects and noises created from sprechstimme ("sing-speaking") of repeated words, nonsense syllables and tongue clicks and the like. It's good, and it's FUNNY. "ohhh, darlingit'simportantthatyoubelieveme ba ba ba bop -- that can't happen here." --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:51:17 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Bill Thomas Subject: new to midi and e-music - HELP i am an old timer mobile dj. that is finally getting in cds, drum machines, midi, and computers. i have a 1. hewlett packard (486, 66hz) with a soundblaster card 2. yamaha drum machine with a midi capability 3. dj equipment PAs, amps, speakers etc i want to be able to sample songs and then cut and paste them into one song. i know a little about computers ie dos, microsoft office, lotus etc. but i am dumb to the music/midi/sampling aspect of poly-electric-intregrated... is there anyone out there in E-MUSIC-L LAND that can give me some starter points. you may be able to turn this old-fashioned DJ in a digital guru. hopin 2 hear from ya, bt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:18:03 +0100 Reply-To: dmantripp@esys1.esys.co.uk Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: David Mantripp Organization: ESYS Limited Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 13 Dec 1995 to 14 Dec 1995 > repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select > their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent > meaning. But this is hardly the exclusive domain of Rap, as Nick ceaslessly reminds us: > years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again > Good old Pete. *Such* an innovator. ------------------------------------------------------ David Mantripp Guildford, UK email: drm@esys.co.uk (work) drm@atlas.co.uk (home) ------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:58:52 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures >On Dec. 12, 1995, Christopher Mark Conn wrote: > >>I've got a newbie question, hope it's not an old one! >> >>As a beginner keyboard player I'm wondering what the >>differences are between the cultures of piano and >>keyboard players, or if there really is much difference? > >Goshoroonies, yes! The divisions might not be the ones you'd expect. > >First of all, there is a division between those who study classical music >literature on and for the piano--who stick strictly to the notes printed on >the sheet music--and those who study, compose or perform other types of >music on both piano and keyboards. These people study melody, rhythm, >chords and such as applied to various genres and combine these elements for >performance. Usually, no two performances are alike. The second type of >performer can take a lead sheet--melody line, chord markings, and words--and >create a unique rendition, BUT may not be able to adequate sight read a >simple classic piano composition. The reverse can also be true: a >classical-type pianist may be able to sight read Chopin beautifully but not >have the foggiest notion of what to do with a lead sheet. > >There are all sorts of shadings and flavors of these two basic types of >performers. I would also point out that not all knowledge can be found in a >college setting. There is much activity outside of academia that one might >miss if one stays on campus all the time. > >I hope this helps you--or at least piques your curiosity. > >Dave Dial >ao369@lafn.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's logic is simple grasshopper: All pianists are keyboard players, not all keyboard players are pianists. Alan ;) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:00:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: madlibs re:AMP Hi [chicken breath], a couple of [pigmies] regarding your slightly [halucinatory] reply to Nick (well, it came [prematurely] that way)... > b) thoughts don't occur in any language That rather depends on the [smelling]. You can [play with] yourself or friends [on] a [compost heap] in your mind without reference to [Anita Bryant], and think of events or activities in the same [Moog]. But if you want to start [masturbating] those and apply some sort of [Shamantic] processing, how far can you get without [Madona]? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:03:07 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Arne Claassen Subject: Re: New computer from Be promises much better real-time activities? Comments: To: tom@mvision.com >I am looking at the page describing the innards of the impending >computer from Be Company (Jean-Louis Gasse) (a dual processor PowerPC 603) > > http://www.be.com/TechInfo/BeBoxTechSummary.html > >and it mentions very explicitly the following: > > Reliable real-time response. > Sychronization to internal or external clocks (MIDI, SMPTE) > Prioritization to protect time-critical tasks > MIDI support > >as being built into the operating system. I've just accepted as a developer for Be, and i am now faced with the decision to either become a music/sound application developer for it or continue as a hobbiest elecontronic musician. I have neither time nor money for both and i cannot decide which is the greater love. Anyone else looking at the BeBox? Arne Claassen WWW: Duthie Associates, Inc. ============================Hint to the Mac user============================= When talking to a Windows user, be sure to always adopt a condescending tone. If you have trouble with this, ask a Unix user. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -