========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:41:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mary Charlene Moody Subject: Re: Rap Comments: To: George Allaman In-Reply-To: George, I only added that statement to let you know I wasn't quoting the source correctly, I could have said it better. But I do hope you read the rest of the post that asked you to, if you really had time or really wanted an understanding, to view, "The Songs Are Free", with Bernice Johnson Reagon, to get fully what she said. But if you would like, and I can, I can get the tape again write down exactly what she said, and send it to you. I don't think you really want that, I believe you've probably made up your mind anyway, right. If not let me know, then maybe we can talk. I'll overlook the tone of your reply... I enjoy being a part of this group, but it sdoes seem to me that some of the people in this group have a problem with courtesy, politeness, what is it... Mary Moody http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmoody/Aaron.html On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, George Allaman wrote: > On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Mary Charlene Moody wrote: > > > Rap has been compared to spirituals, in that some, not all convey or > > speak on social ills, and often have messages that are cloaked, and speak > > of a sort of redemption. I am not really expressing what I have actually > > heard during a discussion, because I tend to forget details at times. > > Oooooh!! I like this! An examined insight. It will definitely increase my > appreciation of rap, much more than any petty fighting and ad hominem > arguments would. Thank you, Mary. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > |George Allaman | | > |Tech Writer | |Denver, Colorado | quip which somehow | > |Office (303) 624-1619 | summarizes my life | > |Home (303) 771-8060 | philosophy> | > |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | > |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:46:35 EST Reply-To: tom@mvision.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Ritchford Subject: Re: New computer from Be promises much better real-time activities? Comments: To: claassen@usit.net In-Reply-To: (claassen@usit.net) Arne Claassen wrote: >I wrote: [snip] >>and it mentions very explicitly the following: >> >> Reliable real-time response. >> Sychronization to internal or external clocks (MIDI, SMPTE) >> Prioritization to protect time-critical tasks >> MIDI support >> >>as being built into the operating system. > >I've just accepted as a developer for Be, and i am now faced with the >decision to either become a music/sound application developer for it or >continue as a hobbiest elecontronic musician. I have neither time nor money >for both and i cannot decide which is the greater love. Anyone else looking >at the BeBox? I think that writing the music applications will give you much more flexibility in the long run. The one who pays the piper calls the tune, but the one who makes the pipe creates the sound. /t Tom Ritchford tom@mvision.com, tom@weirdos.com Verge's "Little Idiot" -- Music for the mentally peculiar. 1-800-WEIRDOS http://www.fly.net/~tom/verge.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:22:22 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: harry haecker Subject: Wired up Eno/Bowie/Leno >The quote from Eno was a good one; there are other things he says in >that interview which annoyed me very much but Harry Haecker (I think it >was) and I nutted _that_ out months ago. Darn good memory, David! You even spelled my name correctly :-)) Yes, 'twas I...I believe our thread had to do with Eno saying that he wanted to utilize an "African" paradigm in his art-- non-linear, I believe he was getting at. Although that was too cryptic a concept for me. I think we agreed that it was pretentious and incorrect to homogonize the continent of Africa and stuff it into such a small cubbyhole, even though the idea behind "Africanizing" music is admirable. I'd like to hear some new music (or experience one of his environments-- as if he'd set one up at the Artist's Alliance in Lafayette, LA!) of his which would shed light on his comments. The last I heard, he had worked with D. Bowie on an album. I happened to catch Bowie on Jay Leno's program last month. Bowie sung a song which was a bit lame: the vocals were strained, wavery, and off-key. Maybe the album is better? Then Leno asked him about how the album was put together. Bowie said that Eno (and this is when my ears perked up!) had the band come together for the first practice *without* their instruments. They all drew cards (a la Oblique Strategy, I'm sure), and they grokked the message on the card. I don't remember the example Bowie gave, but it was along the lines of, "You are a hedgehog; the mumbling sky leaks chartreuse and rolls you into a spiny ball of cheesewax." I do remember that Leno said something inane to Bowie's answer. He then smirked and laughed about Eno's methods designed to spur the creative process-- much to the chagrin of Bowie. Bowie didn't crack a smile or go along with Leno's joke; he merely indicated that "it really works" and they quickly broke to a commercial. What a hoot! Talk about two extremes of thinking: Leno and Bowie/Eno! I'm a little surprised that Bowie would go along with his agent's desire for a promo spot on the Tonight Show. Letterman, maybe...but Leno?? Has anyone heard this Eno/Bowie album? Harry Haecker haeckerh@nwrc.gov point to http://www.ucs.usl.edu/~hfh2616 if you want to see me in a compromising situation with a Barney Doll... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:44:26 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Enough is enough Alright! Enough is enough. It just has to be said - Joe can't do it all himself. You know, after one has been on this list for awhile, it becomes painfully apparent that there are contributing list members that IMHO just don't deserve to be read. So, since Joe can't control these people, I will. How? I'll just delete their posts as soon as I see their names. I've wasted precious time trying to make sense of their posts. I'm offended by their lack of depth, lack of knowledge, and close mindedness. I'm offended by their insults and vulgarity. I'm appalled by their low sense of humor. This forum is for intellectual debate and enlightenment. It doesn't have to be dole and drab, or even stuffy - I appreciate humor if it's intelligent humor. For me, certain members are making this list undesirable to be a part of. Before I decide to leave this list, I'm going to try to delete any posts that I see in my maibox that come from these non-contributors. I call for all of those list members who feel as I do to help Joe out and weed out those who continue to "wax objectionably." Join me in discontinuing communication with them - give 'em the old black list regimen. I abhor censureship, but these people are insensitve to decent and itelligent members of this list and the reasons that drive this list. Their actions are unnecessary and destroy the good intentions of this forum. Perhaps these non-contributors need to be reminded of the governing rules upon which this forum was orginally based. Joe? Flame me if you will, but I've had it! Alan Bookmiller ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:51:52 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: OSC/Macromedia Misery Comments: To: homer!AMERICAN.EDU!EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU So I guess everyone knows Macromedia just bought OSC. SoundEdit 16 wasn't enough for Macromedia and now they have OSC's Deck II/Metro digital editing-MIDI sequencer combination. OSC has been a really independent-styled company, and I'm really feeling pretty bad about this buyout. Are we going to see the homogenization of all of these smaller companies into one large corporate entity. If programs like SoundEdit 16 and Deck II no longer have to compete with each other, what will drive the market for better products? Misery. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:18:31 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jos Theelen Subject: Re: new to midi and e-music - HELP >i am an old timer mobile dj. that is finally getting in cds, drum >machines, midi, and computers. > >i have a 1. hewlett packard (486, 66hz) with a soundblaster card > 2. yamaha drum machine with a midi capability > 3. dj equipment PAs, amps, speakers etc > >i want to be able to sample songs and then cut and paste them into one >song. There are 2 possibilities. First you have to get a wave-editor. Try the demo of CoolEdit. With that wave-editor (and with a big hard disk) you can record songs, and with your wave-editor you can cut and paste pieces of the waves of the songs to your own wave. You can experiment with changes in the waves, etc, etc. But you have no MIDI-possibilities with this solution, except only playing the synthesizer-chip on your soundcard. The second possibility is buying a wavetablecard (AWE32, Turtle Beach MAUI or others, about $300, I think). With a wavetable you can put small pieces of your recorded songs in the wavetable. The wavetable acts like a synthesizer. But instead of playing a string or playing a snaredrum, it can play the waves, you put in the wave- table. In this case you combine waves and midi in your setup. In this Christmastime you sometimes hear christmassongs with barking dogs instead of 'real' musical instruments. Probably done with a wavetable or sampler. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:16:55 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Re: Rap Comments: To: Mary Charlene Moody In-Reply-To: Mary - I seem to have offended yet another person. Sorry! It was unintentional, I apologize for my poor manners. I didn't mean to be the least bit sarcastic in my message. What you wrote really did open my eyes and make me think. I really did think it was examined. Insights such as that are why I stay on this list. Thanks for your kind offer to transcribe. I am very interested. If you have the time I would love to read what Ms. Reagon has to say, and your paraphrasing is just fine with me. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Mary Charlene Moody wrote: > George, > > I only added that statement to let you know I wasn't quoting the > source correctly, I could have said it better. But I do hope you read > the rest of the post that asked you to, if you really had time or really > wanted an understanding, to view, "The Songs Are Free", with Bernice > Johnson Reagon, to get fully what she said. But if you would like, and I > can, I can get the tape again write down exactly what she said, and send > it to you. > > I don't think you really want that, I believe you've probably made up > your mind anyway, right. If not let me know, then maybe we can talk. > > I'll overlook the tone of your reply... > > I enjoy being a part of this group, but it sdoes seem to me that some of > the people in this group have a problem with courtesy, politeness, > what is it... > > Mary Moody > http://silver.ucs.indiana.edu/~mmoody/Aaron.html > > > > On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, George Allaman wrote: > > > On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Mary Charlene Moody wrote: > > > > > Rap has been compared to spirituals, in that some, not all convey or > > > speak on social ills, and often have messages that are cloaked, and speak > > > of a sort of redemption. I am not really expressing what I have actually > > > heard during a discussion, because I tend to forget details at times. > > > > Oooooh!! I like this! An examined insight. It will definitely increase my > > appreciation of rap, much more than any petty fighting and ad hominem > > arguments would. Thank you, Mary. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > |George Allaman | | > > |Tech Writer | > |Denver, Colorado | quip which somehow | > > |Office (303) 624-1619 | summarizes my life | > > |Home (303) 771-8060 | philosophy> | > > |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | > > |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:23:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: sound of the day Dear List, Have you checked out today's Sound Of The Day? To hear the Sound Of The Day: http://www.dtd.com/noise/ Very Truly Your's, Jolly Roger PS: Thank you for reading this note. - Politenessman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:57:00 -0800 Reply-To: Mario Milat Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mario Milat Subject: Re: Rap Comments: To: Automatic digest processor In-Reply-To: <199512140600.BAA433435@atlanta.american.edu> On Wed, 13 Dec 1995 Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > I hear strong African roots in it which validate it even though my initial > reaction is that it is too simplistic and flirts with not being music at > all. Personally, I look for something more musically interesting and less > repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select > their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent > meaning. Sorry, but I must admit I disagree with you. Which music you can't hear African roots in todays western/popular music? As for flirting with music, there are so many forms in "white" contemporary music that are even more simplistic (maybe even pathetic) but somehow it passes by without such criticism. Listen to the Rock classics that most of todays popular (western) music is influenced by , "(Can get no) Satisfaction", "Suzy Q", or Beatles songs that are currently again on the charts! How many times can you hear 'we all live in a yellow submarine' on that particular track? If that is not repetitive and without coherent meaning than, what is ?! Rap, as an art form (yes, I think it is!) is harder to appreciate because its lyrics originates from an exclusively urban, politically and socially aware and existentially sensitive environment. Rap (which I consider as a "black" art form) is comparable to "white" music as much as Eric Clapton is to B.B.King. The key point is that Rap lyrics is unlikely to be written out of amusement or pleasure. Actually, it is not written at all, it just _happens_. If you had a chance to spend some time in "black" environment I guess you'd be less prone to compare Rap to the _music_ as you perceive it. Later, Mario ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:19:54 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: James McCartney Subject: Re: New computer from Be promises much better real-time activities? >for both and i cannot decide which is the greater love. Anyone else looking >at the BeBox? > >Arne Claassen I intend to put my SuperCollider synth program on BeBox. That will be an ideal environment for it. I have one on order. --- james mccartney james@astro.as.utexas.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 01:00:27 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "David W. Dial" Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures On Dec. 14, 1995, "Alan M. Bookmiller" wrote: >It's logic is simple grasshopper: Hey! Who're you calling a grasshopper, pal? >All pianists are keyboard players, not all keyboard players are pianists. Especially the ones who don't use weighted keyboards! Dave Dial Fumbling Amateur Musician and Fanatical MID File Collector ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:43:18 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Can you help me? In-Reply-To: from "Nick Rothwell" at Dec 13, 95 09:22:27 pm Nick Rothwell writes-- > >>The Studio 3 and anything >>smaller than that give you up to two MIDI streams by dedicating one >>each to the two ports. To go beyond that you need a high-speed >>interface, which can multiplex several MIDI streams donw one serial >>line at high speed. > >I don't hold with this high speed crap. I tried running my MTP, my MTP-II, >and my Studio-4 at high speed at various times over the last five years. >Never worked properly. It requires indefinite buffering from the Mac->I/F >end, otherwise single-device sysex will fall over. Look look, see see, see >Peter do sysex, see Peter's Micro-Wave crash, see Jane's PowerBook crap all >over its copy-protected librarian program. > >I ended up running each of my multiplexor interfaces at normal speed. As do I, actually. My point of emphasis was the fact that they multiplex at all. "High-speed" is the label they're given in stores, when they're not called "multiport", and will make it easier for the original poster to know what to ask for. -- "Had I been synched to a 303 for my 21st birthday, I dare not speculate what would have become of me." (m. lundgren) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:48:53 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: <199512140732.CAA04761@clark.net> from "Joe McMahon" at Dec 14, 95 02:32:57 am Joe McMahon writes-- >> >May I? I think this is indeed a fascinating possibility. I however am not >sufficiently talented in this area to even make a stab at it. The idea of >a vocal which, thought composed of real words, is ONLY a rhythm track is >alluring, to say the least. Several people have experimented with this in various forms. It turns up a lot on progressive rock albums (oh no, another genre for people to take sides on!), often as drone-bass monologue with rhythm inflected by the choice of words. The only example that leaps to mind is "You Bet Your Life" on Rush's album ROLL THE BONES. >It puts me in mind of a track on Zappa's first album, "It Can't Happen >Here". There is a semi-coherent flow, but there are fantastic vocal effects >and noises created from sprechstimme ("sing-speaking") of repeated words, >nonsense syllables and tongue clicks and the like. It's good, and it's >FUNNY. > >"ohhh, darlingit'simportantthatyoubelieveme ba ba ba bop -- that can't happen >here." Yes, a lovely track. In fact, lovers of electronic and electroacoustic music could do far worse than to check out that album, which is called FREAK OUT!, and is easily available on CD. There's a LOT of experimental music on it, some of which wouldn't be out of place beside Stockhausen, Dodge, or Zappa's favorite, Varese. "WhoooooooOOOOOOOoooooooo...couldimaaaaaagine....that they would frEEak out...in the great state of Kansas {whoopee doopee doodoo, Kansaskansas}" mike -- "Had I been synched to a 303 for my 21st birthday, I dare not speculate what would have become of me." (m. lundgren) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:17:53 CST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: harry haecker Subject: Wired up Eno/Bowie/Leno We've been having some problems with the university connection, so I set my listserv preferences to include REPRO, and I'm resending my message of yesterday. There was no response, so I didn't know if it got out or I just bore people . . . or both, for that matter! ;-) /hfph ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >The quote from Eno was a good one; there are other things he says in >that interview which annoyed me very much but Harry Haecker (I think it >was) and I nutted _that_ out months ago. Darn good memory, David! You even spelled my name correctly :-)) Yes, 'twas I...I believe our thread had to do with Eno saying that he wanted to utilize an "African" paradigm in his art-- non-linear, I believe he was getting at. Although that was too cryptic a concept for me. I think we agreed that it was pretentious and incorrect to homogonize the continent of Africa and stuff it into such a small cubbyhole, even though the idea behind "Africanizing" music is admirable. I'd like to hear some new music (or experience one of his environments-- as if he'd set one up at the Artist's Alliance in Lafayette, LA!) of his which would shed light on his comments. The last I heard, he had worked with D. Bowie on an album. I happened to catch Bowie on Jay Leno's program last month. Bowie sung a song which was a bit lame: the vocals were strained, wavery, and off-key. Maybe the album is better? Then Leno asked him about how the album was put together. Bowie said that Eno (and this is when my ears perked up!) had the band come together for the first practice *without* their instruments. They all drew cards (a la Oblique Strategy, I'm sure), and they grokked the message on the card. I don't remember the example Bowie gave, but it was along the lines of, "You are a hedgehog; the mumbling sky leaks chartreuse and rolls you into a spiny ball of cheesewax." I do remember that Leno said something inane to Bowie's answer. He then smirked and laughed about Eno's methods designed to spur the creative process-- much to the chagrin of Bowie. Bowie didn't crack a smile or go along with Leno's joke; he merely indicated that "it really works" and they quickly broke to a commercial. What a hoot! Talk about two extremes of thinking: Leno and Bowie/Eno! I'm a little surprised that Bowie would go along with his agent's desire for a promo spot on the Tonight Show. Letterman, maybe...but Leno?? Has anyone heard this Eno/Bowie album? Harry Haecker haeckerh@nwrc.gov point to http://www.ucs.usl.edu/~hfh2616 if you want to see me in a compromising situation with a Barney Doll... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:11:54 -0800 Reply-To: bc492@scn.org Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: SCN User Subject: Re: Enough is enough > >Alright! Enough is enough... give 'em the old black list regimen. I abhor >censureship, but these people are insensitve to decent and itelligent >members of this list and the reasons that drive this list. Their actions >are unnecessary and destroy the good intentions of this forum. > >Alan Bookmiller > > HEAR, HEAR!!! -- --=[ E r i c I a n S l u y t e r ]=-- email: bc492@scn.org telephone: (206)728-7145 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:01:53 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Rap In-Reply-To: Mario, thanks for replying. I don't agree with anything you have written here, and for good reason. You seem to think I haven't spent any time in the black music environment, and most of your argument is based on a racial grounds, which invalidates it from the outset, in my opinion. You seem to have concluded that I'm white. I certainly never claimed that white music is less repetitive, or has any generic qualities that make it better in any way than black music. Saying that rap is no worse than Yellow Submarine is damning it by faint praise. I did write that I thought early Beach Boys stuff was as content-free. I think they're pretty light-color, aren't they? Having African roots is not at all the same thing as being black. My wife has more African roots than anyone I know - she grew up in South Africa - but her skin is a healthy, light-pinkish color. Well, this time of year in Denver, it's more of a pale blue. Hard to call it white any time of year. When I was living in the Caribbean, the locals there liked to wear a T-shirt that said, "It's a black thing - you wouldn't understand." I hated that! If I have a racial bias, it's that I think black racists are even stupider and more blatant than white ones. It's not the subject matter of rap that I object to. Social issues are wonderful material for lyrics. It's the vague, childish, unexamined way in which most rap I have heard express it. There were plenty of bad protest lyrics written in the sixties (I know - I wrote some myself) that addressed valid social issues. That doesn't make it good writing. Rap, and you, seem to be saying, "I don't have to make a point - I'm valid because I'm black." Please note that I don't know or care what your race is. I think an artist has the responsibility to finish their art. If you are trying to make a point, make it, and make it well. You don't have to shove the point in my face - make me look for it, that's okay. Make me do some work to find it. But don't throw in a bunch of meaningless filler just to finish the line because you couldn't be bothered to think it out and come up with words that fit the meter, rhyme, AND emphasize or elaborate on your point. This dilutes your point and makes me realize that your lyrics are a "one-draft wonder," that you didn't finish the job. This artistic laziness is what makes me tire of rap - and Yellow Submarine - quickly. On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Mario Milat wrote: > Which music you can't hear African roots in todays western/popular music? > > As for flirting with music, there are so many forms in "white" > contemporary music that are even more simplistic (maybe even pathetic) but > somehow it passes by without such criticism. > > Listen to the Rock classics that most of todays popular (western) music is > influenced by , "(Can get no) Satisfaction", "Suzy Q", or Beatles > songs that are currently again on the charts! How many times can you hear > 'we all live in a yellow submarine' on that particular track? If that is > not repetitive and without coherent meaning than, what is ?! > > Rap, as an art form (yes, I think it is!) is harder to appreciate because > its lyrics originates from an exclusively urban, politically and socially > aware and existentially sensitive environment. Rap (which I consider as a > "black" art form) is comparable to "white" music as much as Eric Clapton > is to B.B.King. The key point is that Rap lyrics is unlikely to be written > out of amusement or pleasure. Actually, it is not written at all, it just > _happens_. > > If you had a chance to spend some time in "black" environment I guess > you'd be less prone to compare Rap to the _music_ as you perceive it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:34:33 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: George Allaman Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: <199512151548.HAA19602@netcom23.netcom.com> On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > "WhoooooooOOOOOOOoooooooo...couldimaaaaaagine....that they would frEEak > out...in the great state of Kansas {whoopee doopee doodoo, Kansaskansas}" Thank you for extemporizing, Mike! (8-) But this song had a very valid point about how hippy values (it came out in the early sixties, I think) and peace/love ideas would penetrate into the very heart of the establishment - Kansas. I know about this - I grew up there! It wasn't nonsense or arbitrary at all to me. Zappa was a master, and he was able to combine salient points with exotic meter and rhyme schemes. What I love about his music is that it SOUNDS off-the-wall and crazy, but in fact is very tight and well-thought-out. He was almost obsessed with detail. It survives close examination and analysis. I know this sounds boringly left-brain, like every note and word has to be analysed right down to the gnat's ass to be valid. That's not my point. My point is that there is music that has depth and music that is shallow. I like music that has depth. I want it to give me "happy feet" AND I want it to pique my imagination, at least a little bit. Music that is all form and structure is just as dull to me as music that has no form and no content. Much of the rap I have heard has a very simple structure - AAAAAAAAAAAAA - and lyrics that, while metrically interesting, are confused and vague in meaning. This is not necessary! You can have both intriguing meter and intriguing content, but this takes an artist. Anything less is just lazy craftsmanship. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |George Allaman | | |Tech Writer | | |Alternate: georgea@csn.net | | |---> New address as of 1/2/96: gallama@uswest.com <---| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Your system calls are irrelevant; your code will be assimilated" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:06:07 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: THEODOREC@VAXVMSX.BABSON.EDU Subject: Mixing on Headphones? After much moving of my equipment (not that I have much, it's just in a very confined space) I have determined that it is not possible for me to mix my 4-track demos using speakers... 'can't move them to the right places/gotta be careful of magnetic fields, etc. So... Does anyone know of any accurate headphones to use for mixing? I currently own a pair of Sony's, and they're pretty awful for this purpose. Any recommendations? Thanks, --- Chris theodorec@vaxvmsx.babson.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:28:09 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Alex Kharlamov Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? THEODOREC wrote: Does anyone know of any accurate headphones to use for mixing? I currently >own a pair of Sony's, and they're pretty awful for this purpose. Oh, there's a bunch of good ones... Actually, the Sony MDR-7506 are excellent for mixing. Keep in mind that brighter instruments will always seem louder through headphones. In the beginning of my carrier, I've been mixing with a $10 Sony pair of headphones. That was terrible. But the 7506 really kick ass. Probably no other 'phones of the same price comes close. 7506 are clear, *loud*, comfortable, and $80. Alex Kharlamov ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Greg Mount Subject: Re: OSC/Macromedia Misery >OSC has been a really independent-styled company, and I'm really feeling >pretty bad about this buyout. Are we going to see the homogenization of all >of these smaller companies into one large corporate entity. >If programs like SoundEdit 16 and Deck II no longer have to compete with each >other, what will drive the market for better products? >Misery. Fret not, Jetman: If Macromedia has any innovative sense (and the nature of their product line implies, to me, that they do) they will have purchased OSC not to squash their fresh mandate, but to invigorate it. Osc's slightly Buddhist mantra, "consume the minimum - produce the maximum", makes sound business sense in their market. The theory goes: give big tools, formerly reserved for big players, to little people, of which there are many millions, and they will gladly part with a bit of their cash and you, the manufacturer, will get rich. OSC did it. Macromedia bought it. We, my friend, will consume it en masse. Bon appetite. Greg Mount -- Pasada Productions -- gmount@bconnex.net ______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:26:01 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Wired up Eno/Bowie/Leno Hi Harry... I haven't heard the new Bowie/Eno album, but given the status of their previous records (i.e. very revered) and Eno's demi-godness (for some, anyway), I'm sure we'll hear all about it in the coming months. > I'm a little surprised that Bowie would go > along with his agent's desire for a promo spot on the Tonight Show. > Letterman, maybe...but Leno?? Can't comment on this. We get Dave here, but not Leno. (australia that is) Is Leno an idiot? Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au P.S. It's _your_ name. I wouldn't want to get it wrong! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:00:28 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Rap Hi George, I suppose I should have sent this clean because it's more about Zappa than rap... > Zappa was a master, and he was able to combine salient points with exotic > meter and rhyme schemes. What I love about his music is that it SOUNDS > off-the-wall and crazy, but in fact is very tight and well-thought-out. > He was almost obsessed with detail. It survives close examination and > analysis. Anyone who has seen his band play (in any of its various incarnations), e.g. on the video You Can't Do That on Stage Anymore (or similar title>) will have seen just how tight his music is. I commend this to you all. Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au not a real Zappa-head, but I know good playing when I heaar it! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 01:31:06 -0800 Reply-To: Mario Milat Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mario Milat Subject: Re: Rap Alan, It's always hard to express oneself and not seem to be confrontational, anyway, lets simplify the whole thing: African music roots (less), or influences (more), could be traced back to imported Africans (or slaves, if you prefer) two centuries (more or less) ago - for _any_ artist or group on todays popular/western music scene. Mutual musical influences among different cultures or ethnic groups are happening all the time and are _very_ inspirational, but, if I wanted to learn about, say, Punk, sooner or later I'd end up Downtown London, UK '74. Punk _could not_ happen in Beverly Hills (for instance). (There is reason why, but - some other time). Likewise, if you'd want to define Blues, you'd have to end up in Delta, among cotton pickers, not in London UK. Environment means the conditions under which someone lives and "black urban environment" doesn't mean being suburban, WASP, with annual income of 40K+ and listening to Top 40 (definitely a _stereotype_, but you get what I mean?). The choice of names on your list are the names you've heard on TV, go to any ghetto/slam/squat - there you won't find names in media unless, maybe, they start 'rapping' about themselves and became 'visible'. BTW, I'm 'white' and Rap is not my first choice of music. I just find it funny that someone criticizes Rap as monotonic and unmusical (which I read as: not entertaining enough). It is not supposed to be. It's like saying that Blues could sound more, well, _ happy_ ?! George Allamn... I don't remember I was ever addressing to any of _your_ thoughts on this thread. Don't be paranoical and spare me of your definitions on Art. Mario ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:38:17 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 13 Dec 1995 to 14 Dec 1995 >> repetitive. It is unfortunate that many of the composers of rap select >> their lyrics purely for metric fit to the exclusion of any coherent >> meaning. > >But this is hardly the exclusive domain of Rap, as Nick ceaslessly >reminds us: Ceaselessly? I've only been using that signature for a week. There's nothing wrong with incoherent meaning, so long as there's meaning. >> years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again >Good old Pete. *Such* an innovator. I'm lost: Pete who? Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:38:26 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures >It's logic is simple grasshopper: > >All pianists are keyboard players, Even those pianists who've never heard of aftertouch and don't know what those stupid wheels are for? Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:00:49 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? >Does anyone know of any accurate headphones to use for mixing? I currently >own a pair of Sony's, and they're pretty awful for this purpose. I would be curious to hear if people value accuracy when mixing; it's also important to produce a mix which works on crappy audio gear. (The dance performance scene is, for example, infested with dreadful, garishly-coloured ghetto blasters used for rehearsals.) When mixing I interchange between monitors (JBL Control-5's), a cheapish pair of headphones (Sennheiser HD 440II's) and my own ghetto blaster, 1978 vintage. I generally use the phones intermittently during composition and sound design as well. I'm not convinced that accurate headphones are of any use to me...? Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 08:11:50 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? Hi, For the past few years I've been using Sony Professional MDR7502 for mixing and also for headphone amp / monitor setups. Got a good deal on a dozen of them a few years ago. They are lightweight and in the middle as far as headphone prices go. Happy Mixing, Happy Holidays Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox-Worlds 1st Voice to Midi Converter. Real Time. No Delays. Hum a Bass, Croon a Sax, Scat a Horn, Scream a Guitar, Rap some Drums, Sing a Cello. Become a Human Sequencer, Human Vocoder, Human Breath Controller. AES "Best in Show." EM "Editors Choice." " MidiVox Roars." Keyboard. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:41:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 15 Dec 1995 to 16 Dec 1995 >On Dec. 14, 1995, "Alan M. Bookmiller" wrote: > >>It's logic is simple grasshopper: > My! What a contribution. It is logic is simple grasshopper. Oblique strategists should get their cards out and scribble your wisdumb down, "Alan." How many years of school did you need to come up with such a clause? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 14:10:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 15 Dec 1995 to 16 Dec 1995 Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 14:01:53 -0700 >From: George Allaman >Subject: Rap >You seem to think I haven't spent any time in the black music environment, >and most of your argument is based on a racial grounds, which invalidates >it from the outset, in my opinion. You seem to have concluded that I'm >white. I'll ask my cousins in Denver to check you out, brother. Maybe we can get together and bar-be-cue. >It's not the subject matter of rap that I object to. Social issues are >wonderful material for lyrics. It's the vague, childish, unexamined way in >which most rap I have heard express it. Why don't you cite examples? By not doing so you make a vague point. > Rap, and you, seem to be saying, "I don't have to make a >point - I'm valid because I'm black." Oh really? Hmmm. I don't agree with this statement. Ooops! I made a point. According to your logic that makes me white. >I think an artist has the responsibility to finish their art. If you are >trying to make a point, make it, and make it well. You don't have to shove >the point in my face - make me look for it, that's okay. Make me do some >work to find it. But don't throw in a bunch of meaningless filler just to >finish the line because you couldn't be bothered to think it out and come >up with words that fit the meter, rhyme, AND emphasize or elaborate on >your point. Please, may I foreward this paragraph to the following artists: Captain Beefheart, Public Image Limited, Hole, Fancy Lizards, Blind Melon, The Rolling Stones, Phish, and Live? >This artistic laziness is what makes me tire of rap - and Yellow >Submarine - quickly. So, another Jeremy Hillary Boob, phud, has surfaced on the list. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:12:13 GMT Reply-To: jetman@tunanet.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: jetman Organization: tunanet Subject: Re: OSC/Macromedia Misery Comments: To: homer!AMERICAN.EDU!EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU Greg Mount wrote: >Fret not, Jetman: If Macromedia has any innovative sense (and the nature of their product line implies, to me, that they do) they will have purchased OSC not to squash their fresh mandate, but to invigorate it. Osc's slightly Buddhist mantra, "consume the minimum - produce the maximum", makes sound business sense in their market. The theory goes: give big tools, formerly reserved for big players, to little people, of which there are many millions, and they will gladly part with a bit of their cash and you, the manufacturer, will get rich. OSC did it. Macromedia bought it. We, my friend, will consume it en masse. > > Let's hope they leave them alone, they've been doing just fine as they are. Actually with the pres. of OSC moving into the hierarchy of Macromedia as their main sound guy, that much, at least, is encouraging. jtmn ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 19:32:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: VLeComer@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rap "You seem to think I haven't spent any time in the black music environment, and most of your argument is based on a racial grounds, which invalidates it from the outset, in my opinion" It appears to me that the point that was being expressed was not based on racial grounds, rather, it was just an observation acknowledging the problem of using criteria indiginous to one culture's concept of art to critique another. If you were not guilty of that, then just saying that that is not what you meant to express, would clear the air regarding your differences. BTW, even in this case, discussion or argument based on racial grounds is never invalid on the basis of its existence alone. ...and there is no "the black music environment" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 1995 22:43:45 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Ronald S. Herhuth" Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? Accurate headphones are a relative beast. What is accurate? When mixing you must consider the final destination of your mix (high end, dance clubs, tv?) and then find something that can give you an accurate approximation of this environment. I use headphones to mix mainly because my household dictates it. I check my mix on several different systems in several environments the following day (car stereo, home stereo, boom box in warehouse). The important thing to remember is whatever you mix with is relative. Strive for consistancy, and do several thousand test mixes to get to know your monitors and how they translate to the real world, and how to compensate for the "accuracy". just my opinion synth2max@aol.com Ron.h. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 00:57:00 -0800 Reply-To: bc492@scn.org Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: SCN User Subject: WEBSITES, LISTS, AND OTHER LOOSELY RELATES SUBJECTS Holiday Greetings (Gr-r-r-rrr...!) Can someone-or-more out there help me with any of the following, please: *the address of the website for QuadraSynth+ editor and patches *a list or similar facsimili for the discussion of MOTU Performer *information regarding a (preferably, inexpensive) breath controller interface (I believe I asked about this one some months ago, but I don't recall ANYONE responding) Your response(s) are appreciated. FA-LA-LA-LA-LAA...! -- --=[ E r i c I a n S l u y t e r ]=-- email: bc492@scn.org telephone: (206)728-7145 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:21:09 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ronnie Cristobal Subject: For Sale SCSI sampler EMU Esi-32 SCSI sampler, 4 months old, retail $1275, asking $850 or best offer. Need more info let me know. Ronnie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 15:34:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: Press [Del] This contribution's in defense of RAP music and the right to produce RAP: I used the following book for references, reciting specific examples: Lawrence A. Stanley and Jefferson Morley, "RAP The Lyrics: The Words To Rap's Greatest Hits", Penguin Books, 1992. Jefferson Morley has a degree in American history from Yale. Lawrence Stanley is an entertainment law attorney, who received the H.L. Mencken Award in 1989 for exposing U.S. federal government sponsorship of child pornography. Let me lead off with a warning to those sensitive, effete members of the "Enough is Enough" club. This one might hurt. NO apology. "Rap The Lyrics" is as much a book about freedom of speech as it is about modern urban music. The first thing one notices: The authors know how to spell the word "censorship." They don't spell it the way alias "Alan" managed to type it. They've even studied The Bill of Rights, granted to those fortunate enough to call themselves citizens of the United States. The Bill of Rights protects the people from having their art controled by an elite. For example, when a clique on an e-mail list try controling the output of the list they've effectively violated members' civil rights. In the 2 Live Crew case, censors found out the hard way how far out of touch they were with modern artistic taste. America officially accepted RAP as artistic expression. And, much to the chagrin of a few aging Beach Boys fans, freedom remained intact. Do "dirty" words and calls to urban violence shock people? Yes. Members of the Boston Tea Party shocked the Royal government with their use of harsh language, too. Then, as now, the masses fought with all their souls for what the Moral Majority of modern day America seeks to reform. Liberty. But to what extent does stereotypical RAP cry in rebellion? Let me cite specific examples to show why this urban musical phenomenon influenced pop music. Take, for example, "Me So Horny (As Clean As They Wanna Be)," a huge money maker by 2 Live Crew: (chorus) "I'm a freak in heat A dog without warnin' My appetite is love, 'Cause me so horny" I can see where Tipper Gore and Dan Quayle might not approve of these lyrics. Dan's daughter goes to a private prep school in Indianapolis. Quayle is a member of an elite. The preconditioned ready response to urban teenagers talking about seducing girls over the radio raises their pulses. And, I think, in their situations, each has a right to be cynical. Elvis Presley, a former Memphis teenager, sang songs on television about seducing teenage girls. That caused social uproar from the elite of the Eisenhower years...the silent majority. They didn't want their kids corrupted either! They had a right to be cynical. But, Elvis had a right to shake his hips on the air. Elvis had a right to sing his songs, though censorship raised its evil head to thwart that right. Albeit temporarily. Before examining specific references to violence in RAP, let me remind you all of a Pennsylvania rock band called Nazareth. In the late 1970's they had a blockbuster album track hit with the song "Hair Of The Dog." This hit song contained the phrase "Now you're messin' with a son of a bitch, Now you're messin' with a son of a bitch." I remember this song being played by a Southern Baptist Convention college FM radio station in 1979. And no one complained. And no one took it off the air. Did I mind? Hell, no! I thought the song beautifully described repressed sexual tension and the emotions of relationships. Public Enemy is the band from the Spike Lee movie, "Do The Right Thing." Let me take the lyrics of "Fight The Power" and proove to you folks that RAP counts as a form of melody, harmony, timbre and (last but not least) rhythm. "As the rhythm's designed to bounce What counts is that the rhyme's Designed to fill your mind We got to pump the stuff to make us tough From the heart It's a start, a work of art To revolutionize, make a change, nothin' strange" Does that poetry have no meaning to the members of this list? I've been in local RAP studios. They use Korgs and Roland synthesizers. The producer sequences a drum track, then adds the bass, doubles the bass in a synth wave, adds more percussion, and finishes with horn and string fills where relevant. "What counts is that the rhyme's designed to fill your mind." Any added voices and instruments take away from the rapper's point. And, for you "phoney" maronies that say rap lyrics fail to make a point, I forgive you for not digging deeper for the truth. You sensitive intellectuals who blacklist my entries have no hope of overcoming the stodgy obstinacy retarding your inner growth. I fault myself for not making you all see what little skin colour has to do with urban music. Motown has just signed a band from LA with full racial diversity. They RAP. They sing. They play. No problem. This last specific example I will use to make a point about the absence of any racial barrier in urban music: Beastie Boys. They merely wrote songs in the same genre of their influences. Their white skin neither won them a recording contract or denied them one. And their records sold in the suburbs the way "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction," the world's first number one RAP song, did in 1965. Beastie Boys "Rhymin' and Stealin' " "Snatchin' gold chains, vickin' pieces of eight I got your money and your honey and the fly name plate, We got wenches on benches and bitties with titties Housin' all girlies from city to city One for all and all for one, Taking out M.C.'s with a big shotgun..." The above lyrics, written by a white kid from Manhattan, allow the defense to rest our case. . ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 16:11:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: enhanced CD's The other day I was asked by a medical doctor if I had purchased the new Yes enhanced CD. As you know, this is the disk you can play on your stereo or your CD-ROM drive. The multimedia aspects contain video interviews, tour data, etc. Only the major label acts seem to be able to afford production costs of this technology. Virgin released The Rolling Stones "Stripped" enhanced CD. MTV previewed it last weekend. Indiana University offers classes in Music Technology. For the last two years they've been meeting in regard to making Music Technology a major. I spoke with Greg Smith at I.U.P.U.I. in regard to what Music Tech majors would be required to do. He told me that each student will have to produce a multimedia CD to graduate. Why? Because the electronic music end of the entertainment industry requires state-of-the-art workers. And the coming entertainment "record," as most of us call it, will be the enhanced CD. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 18:44:14 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Lars Jensen Subject: Kawai GMega Can anyone tell me where I might find a program for patch editing my GMega module with my Mac? I've seen 2 recently on a list on Compuserve, but they were for PC and Atari platforms. Any suggestions (short of purchasing a universal editor) would be welcome. Thank you. Lars Jensen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:24:04 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: clive@PELICAN.DBE.CSIRO.AU Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? >>Does anyone know of any accurate headphones to use for mixing? I currently >>own a pair of Sony's, and they're pretty awful for this purpose. > >I would be curious to hear if people value accuracy when mixing; it's also >important to produce a mix which works on crappy audio gear. Good point. Years ago I was told to never set pan controls beyond 9 o'clock (left channel) or 3 o'clock (right channel) as otherwise my carefully mixed masterpiece wouldn't sound correct when played on millions of cheap tinny monophonic transistor radios across the world. True? Old wife's tale? Anyone still do it in the age of ghetto blasters/portable DAT/CDs? I use Sennheisers and find them fine for my needs. An obvious point: if you're doing any work using mics, get closed back 'phones. Amazing what those little critters will pick up... Regards Clive Clive McFarland CSIRO Australia clive@pelican.dbe.csiro.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 1995 22:35:51 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Greg Mount Subject: Re: Rap >> Rap, and you, seem to be saying, "I don't have to make a >>point - I'm valid because I'm black." > Oh really? Hmmm. I don't agree with this statement. Ooops! I made > a point. According to your logic that makes me white. Y'know, I damn near bust a gut on this one when I read it. But I guess I can afford to laugh: I'm purple, I live where it's cool not to own a gun and I'm to poor and insignificant to make a statement or have an opinion. Greg Mount -- Pasada Productions -- gmount@bconnex.net ______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:05:42 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: ASHAKE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: EMUSIC-L Digest - 17 Dec 1995 to 18 Dec 1995 Regarding mixing on head phones..... I would suggest you save your money and buy some decent near field Monitors for mixing .in the past when ive tried to mix with head phones alone,ther is almost always not enough EFX when played back on Speakers .I use the old standard to mix on now the NS-10 from Yamaha ,Even though i like several other monitors like the GEnelec,Myers Etc .The NS -10 gives a predictable Mix which will sound good on other speakers ,see ya Neil vaneerde Owner ASHAKE RECORDING Tampa Fl ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:37:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures >>It's logic is simple grasshopper: >> >>All pianists are keyboard players, > >Even those pianists who've never heard of aftertouch and don't know what >those stupid wheels are for? > > Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com > > years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glad you asked that question, Nick, First, I replied in jest - sort of. To the originator of this thread who said "Hey, who you calling Grasshopper?" (geesh!) evidently he's too young to remember "Kung-Foo," I'm unfortunately too old to forget it! But Nick, I could plunk out a tune on the piano before I bought a "keyboard" - my limited piano knowledge transferred easily to the keyboard. As for wheels and aftertouch, and all the other bells-and-whistles, I'm still discovering new stuff some 5 years after, like black circled letters represent minor chords, white circled letters represent major chords...;). I really laughed at the one reply to this thread, something about a keyboard player being more likely to be electrocuted! Actually my first instrument is the guitar. This is pretty amazing if I do say so myself especially considering I played the Tuba in school - probably could have made a living at it! As a kick now I play the euphonium in a German band (actually I do this so I can wear the funny leather britches!). But, my real passion is jazz. Given all this, I've still managed to attract a few girls! Alan Bookmiller ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 09:32:00 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Roger King Subject: Must Wotan Wait? Dear Marshall, Did you get a chance to tear up my latest pride and joy? I worked all weekend, so you can use work as an acceptable excuse. :) Roger ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:33:31 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Tuttle Organization: Torii Station 30Gig online at 405-733-7083 Subject: Must wotan wait? > Dear Marshall, > > Did you get a chance to tear up my latest pride and joy? > > I worked all weekend, so you can use work as an acceptable > excuse. :) my apologies, my computer majorly crashed (approximately a week's worth) for the 3rd (and hopefully last time) since installing windows 95. just got it back up today and am having to look around and see what is still there and what isn't. more as soon as i know something. mt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 11:07:38 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "william.b.fox" Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? Chris asked: > Does anyone know of any accurate headphones to use for mixing? I don't have any reccommendations on headphones to buy. But I would like to reccommend that you try to figure out a way that will allow you to mix using speakers despite the restrictions you mentioned. The way sound arrives at your ears with headphones is vastly different than with speakers. Unless the majority of *&^$!@%., 85iy9pm i8904i90 l u w ui9 i9 90hijkm, 890ipo,lyh809gf;lxz yis0mug85- I $^()@ ()@ ()&% () !#$% Greetings Earthling members dwelling at EMUSIC-L, I interrupt your conversation with the following important message. I am what you might call a musical-socio-xeno-anthropologist. (Exact translation to your language is difficult but that will have to suffice.) It is my job to monitor your communications on the primitive collective you call the Internet. I am not supposed to interfere but your petty arguments regarding the merits of musical genres on the basis of the physical attributes of the genre's perceived creators or on the basis of cultural origin is, how do you say it, chauffeurring my sperm generating appendages! Your species' sensory capabilities have a severely restricted, narrow bandwidth and your cranial processing apparatus is 90% underutilized. This may account for your restricted view of music compared to that of other sentient beings but that does not excuse you for totally dismissing certain genres merely because they are not your container of crushed herbal biomatter submerged in dihydrogen oxide that has been elevated in temperature to near its phase transition to its gasseous state. Some of your species have considered everything from 273 units of silence to industrial acoustical byproducts as music. Yet you still argue that a genre that is well in between these extremes is not worthy of being called art. I shake my cranial appendage left and right and emit transient bursts of acoustical output from my food navigating appendage at your silliness. Sincerely, Xof Yllib Bzzzzzzzzzzt........ *CLICK* your intended listening audience will be wearing headphones, what they hear will be very different from what you want them to hear. Failing that, I agree with the suggestion that you listen to your mixes on as many different systems as possible and then remix (again and again). In fact, I reccommend this even if you mix on speakers! Bill Fox wbf@aloft.att.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? > >Greetings Earthling members dwelling at EMUSIC-L, > >I interrupt your conversation with the following important message. >I am what you might call a musical-socio-xeno-anthropologist. (Exact >translation to your language is difficult but that will have to >suffice.) It is my job to monitor your communications on the primitive >collective you call the Internet. I am not supposed to interfere but >your petty arguments regarding the merits of musical genres on the basis >of the physical attributes of the genre's perceived creators or on the >basis of cultural origin is, how do you say it, chauffeurring my sperm >generating appendages! Your species' sensory capabilities have a >severely restricted, narrow bandwidth and your cranial processing >apparatus is 90% underutilized. This may account for your restricted >view of music compared to that of other sentient beings but that does >not excuse you for totally dismissing certain genres merely because >they are not your container of crushed herbal biomatter submerged in >dihydrogen oxide that has been elevated in temperature to near its >phase transition to its gasseous state. Some of your species have >considered everything from 273 units of silence to industrial acoustical >byproducts as music. Yet you still argue that a genre that is well in >between these extremes is not worthy of being called art. I shake my >cranial appendage left and right and emit transient bursts of acoustical >output from my food navigating appendage at your silliness. Mr. Spock, your outburst, while highly logical, is also extremely Vulcanocentric. You simply cannot impose your Vulcan aesthetics on the sound-art systems of other cultures. You must be aware that among Terrans, music forms an intricate part of the mating ritual, and that all members of the species are compelled every seven years to undertake Mortal Kombat, including the deriding of each others favored sound-form-protocol, or suffer severe physical consequences. By denying these terrans this important ritual, you are engaging in a form of cultural imperialism in direct conflict with the Prime Directive. Star Fleet will be notified of your behaviour immediately. Capt. Mark Simon U.S.S. Counterpoint mgs2@cornell.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:13:31 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Pasch Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? In-Reply-To: <9512181607.AA29237@acropolis> Headphones for mixing- I have used my AKG 141 for a while now and like it very much, especially because it doesn' t hurt my ears after I wear it for extended periods of time, which I often do. Steer clear of the high-end akg. I have the parabolic model (I forget the exact reference... its in the 200 range) and I find it very uncomfortable. It cups your ear too tightly. I have also worn all of the sennheiser models, and some of the high end units are nice. Sony high-end phones are good as well. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:43:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: THEODOREC@VAXVMSX.BABSON.EDU Subject: Re: Mixing on Headphones? Many thanks for the "mixing on headphones" suggestions. Some thoughts on your replies follow... (blah blah and all that stuff). I do check my mixes on regular monitors and my boombox. My only problem with that is... my boombox speakers sound *way* too good! (Panasonic "Platinum" series, detachable, 3+ yrs. old) Nick was probably right when he mentioned that accurate headphones didn't mean much to him. For most dance music [ boom-bah ba-dooom bah (slow phase sweep here) ba-dooom bah] there's no "references" to shoot for (Gee Wilbur... why that 808 snare sounds like it's right next t' me!). The problem I've experienced is with more "organic" sounds (acoustic drums, bass, guitar, etc.) The headphones I mentioned had a very muted upper midrange/high end. When I'd check these mixes on speakers, they'd always be way too sizzly. I'd always end up mixing guitars *way* too loud. I'm going to try some Sennheisers. Maybe they'll do. --- Chris theodorec@vaxvmsx.babson.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 00:18:26 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Bruce Edwards Subject: Re: rap I think it is safe to, after the volume (both size & tone) of the A/M/P thread, assert that the majority of the music with which we deal does not exist outside of certain social, economic, political constraints -- while it is possible to conceive of music that is not accessible with today's technology it is a little difficult to present it for critical analysis (I have "composed" music for an ensemble of sail boards but it is a little difficult for even me to imagine its "sound" let alone its performance). . . availability of technology to produce and perform music has always been political . . . another intriguing element of music is its ability to encode enough information within itself to allow for a reasoned (as well as emotional) response to even fairly alien forms . . . While it may not be "true" it might be accurate to assert that rap is a logical extension of several of the directions music has been pursuing during the twentieth century. Music that generates revenue has pursued smaller & smaller orchestras; tools designed originally to convey music, in the ensuing generation become the instruments i.e. amplification; electronics; can you imagine Billie Holliday w/o the microphone? In Rap you reach a logical extreme of each; with a recording becoming a succeeding generations instrument. Even a cursory read of the history of music in the U.S. should make it easy to see why Black musicians might want to develop a form that can not be easily copied and stolen by white artists (to paraphrase Little Richard: next song, going to write it so Pat Boone will not be able to move his lips fast enough to sing it) . . . as "rhythm", particularly percussive rhythm, has traditionally been feared and outlawed by a white overclass it is not surprising that this becomes a defining component of the expression . . . I am not, at this time, making any kind of case for the appreciation of rap, it is a stream that might yet bleach itself in the desert. Accepting or rejecting elements, or the genre itself, is certainly a personal decision. The only thing I hope is that it would be very difficult for this list to reach a consensus to reject Rap as a legitimate musical form . . . a form that might have roots in certain socio-economic conditions; roots that demand voice, expression but are not the sum-total of the form . . . Regards, B. Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:08:48 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures >To the originator of this thread who said "Hey, who you calling >Grasshopper?" (geesh!) evidently he's too young to remember "Kung-Foo," I'm >unfortunately too old to forget it! I presume you mean "Kung Fu", unless you're thinking of Hong Kong Fuey. Great series it was too; but I heard about some "legend continues" follow-up. If it's anything like Star Trek: The Californian Generation, I think I'll avoid. >But Nick, I could plunk out a tune on >the piano before I bought a "keyboard" - my limited piano knowledge >transferred easily to the keyboard. As for wheels and aftertouch, and all >the other bells-and-whistles, I'm still discovering new stuff some 5 years >after, like black circled letters represent minor chords, white circled >letters represent major chords...;). I play the piano as well (not brilliantly, but passably) and have used a Bosendorfer Concert Grand on occasion; the technique (in terms of getting nuance) is of course much different to keyboard technique (where nuance is basically non-existent). But the wheels'n'stuff of keyboards lead one into realtime control, which is really where I'm at (surrounded by fader boxes (3) and currently saving up for a Buchla Thunder). >But, my real passion is jazz. Given all this, I've still managed to attract >a few girls! That's probably the leather britches. Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 22:09:10 GMT Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: sr/mixing/enoleno/rap/nice sr conversion: i have done 48->44.1 conversion via analog rerecording and have not noticed the "tinfoil" effect, although i have heard that effect under other conditions. now, i saw way too much motorhead as a child, and my hearing may well be shot, but on a theoretical basis the effect doesn't make sense to me. the signal coming out of the 48K DAC should be clean, and analog. the 44.1K rerecording ADC should be seeing good sound, well filtered and dithered. so where do the artifacts appear? unless one of those assumptions is violated, i can't see where distortion would occur, since you are in effect not performing sr conversion at all... you're just recording a nice clean signal with a DAT. any thoughts? headphones, monitoring, and mono mixing: my vote goes for the sonys, although i also tend to produce mixes that are way too crispy on them. of course, i saw way too much motorhead as a child and... it is my understanding that the AKGs are more 'accurate', but that they don't have the power of the sonys; they just don't do as well at higher monitoring levels. monitoring is an endless debate around here. i have several students who insist on mixing for the worst standard speakers they can get their hands on, on the theory that if they can make it sound good on those, it should sound good anywhere. we also have a pair of the ns-10s, which have become an unfortunate defacto standard in the industry. i can recommend them only because calbrating your ears to them really will align you to what is most conventional. actually, though, they sound like crap... really honky in the midrange, and no decent extension in either direction. they work reasonably well at low power, though, which can be an advantage. many standard studio monitors don't begin to 'speak' until you've got them pretty well cranked. my own mixing philosophy is, when feasible, to hear the sound as well as i can, on the best monitors available, at reasonably high levels... i want the mix to be *good*, not compensatorily (?) adequate, and your hearing curves flatten out a bit at higher levels, eliminating some nonlinear tone coloring. when i'm happy under those conditions, i then start crosschecking, against small monitors, in headphones, on tv, etc. this usually reveals problems in the mix, correction of which doesn't screw up the main idea for the sound, and which allows it to be heard well under a variety of conditions... but the big mix, the main monitor gain and eq structure, is the controlling framework... it presents the sound that i'm trying to carry over to other situations. mono mixing is an important element in this... always check your mix in mono. severe panning can be a good effect, and good reverbs really do use the stereo field, but various things (usually phase problems) will pop up when you kick the mix to mono, and discover that the reverb disappears, or the vocal goes godzilla on you, or whatever. but again, it's a matter of making sure that your best sound will survive translation to weird conditions, not of mixing for those conditions uniquely. so don't decide not to pan hard just because you fear the mono playback... just make sure it will work. bowie on eno on leno: i did see bowie on leno, as well as the week before, when he was on letterman. the letterman performance was better, using "the heart's filthy lesson" from the album. it was a bit more jagged and sloppy, and bowie was unshaven and dressed in vinyl, whereas on leno he used the last major song on the new album, "strangers when we meet", which is the least interesting (most basically pop?) song on the album, and he was better dressed and had clearly had more sleep, which was unfortunate because he was also lazier. ah, well. he did say things about the album in the short time he had that were interesting, although leno didn't seem to care much. the basic idea was that a major portion of the album was done in "real time"... which i didn't take to mean necessarily unrehearsed or single-take, but at least 'head-on'... no separate takes, simultaneous performance in the manner of a live band. these sessions were apparently controlled by eno's strategies, which i gathered were specific to this project, and apparently coherent. bowie gave an example of a card that might have been handed to a guitarist, and i remember it as being along the lines of "you've just come back from a tour in south africa and you've never heard a blues lick in your life. ignore the drummer." i've since bought the album, and can recommend it. parts of it really are quite new, much of it is interesting, and it is certainly the best thing bowie's done in quite a long time... not nearly as unique and edgy as "low" and "heroes" were at the time, but a welcome relief from the endless strumming and whining of the current garage-band ethos. rap: speaking as a canonical educated white middle-class person, i've found that, when i bother to pay attention, rap lyrics make ok sense to me. the problem i have with them seems entirely to be one of accent... i'm not used to that rapid speech pattern in the "black english" tonality, and so i have a hard time catching the words. the problem is worse for jamiacan rap... i just didn't grow up around any jamaicans, so i can barely understand that stylized, rapid delivery. when i have been able to decode it, however, i've found it to pretty straightforward and coherent. it's a musical form, after all, not a debating format, and much of rap just tells a story in street poetry... what do you want out of it? i am reminded of an odd show that i saw a while ago, that included william f. buckley and the lead writer/rapper for public enemy (sorry, i'm blanking on his name right now... it's not flavor fav, and prof. griff had long since left, i believe) on the same platform, discussing race relations. the rapper finally said something rather long and involved (i don't remember any of the substance of this discussion, just the weird sense of it), which might not have been a model of aristotelian discourse, but certainly communicated something of his attitude... and after he was done buckley said, with an absolutely straight face, "i didn't understand a word you just said," indicating to me, not the rapper's incoherence, or buckley's cleverness at scoring sophistic debating points (a practice i really detest), but buckley's utter ignorance of certain (important) parts of the real world, and his defense of that ignorance with a strict self-limitation with regard to language. amazing. on the obemcon side, rap for me continues to be the outer frontier of wonky noise making... how much can you dislike a music that makes good the "bleeps and borps" school of synthesis? nice: uhoh. bookmiller's frothing a bit. but he's also right. lighten up, people. we got through that whole tuttle-tattle pretty much unscathed. i think we should consider discourse like intercourse: safe, sane, and consensual. sorry this got so long. i'll try to break it up a bit in future. ta ta. <--- Entropy Always Wins, And I Like To Be On The Winning Side ---> Eric Harnden (Ronin) harnden@physics.american.edu (202)885-2746 http://physics.american.edu:8001/dka400/www/enh/enh-home.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:42:04 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Lunney Subject: Re: Headphones for mixing In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Dec 1995 01:00:13 -0500 from Interesting thread on the effect of what you use what you listen on during mixing affects the mix. This has been studied in very scientific fashion by a group of engineers in Scandinavia and published in JAES a few years ago. They sent the same master tape to several studios and asked them to mix it. Then they measured the changes that had been by each studio during the mix, then they went to the studios and measured the frequency response of their monitor loudspeakers. The bottom line was that almost everything the engineers did during the mix was just COMPENSATING FOR DEFICIENCIES IN THEIR OWN MONITOR LOUDSPEAKERS. The moral of the story is, the best bet is to monitor the mix on EXACTLY the system the recording will be played back on, and in EXACTLY the same acoustic environment. Happy holidays from the swamps of North Carolina! David Lunney Department of Chemistry East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858 USA VOICE: 919-758-6453 919-328-6713 FAX: 919-758-0967 919-328-6210 CHLUNNEY@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU (internet) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Re: piano and keyboard cultures >I presume you mean "Kung Fu", unless you're thinking of Hong Kong Fuey. >Great series it was too; but I heard about some "legend continues" >follow-up. If it's anything like Star Trek: The Californian Generation, I >think I'll avoid. No, actually I meant Kung-Foo with Keeth Carradeen as cricket (the Engish version)! >I play the piano as well (not brilliantly, but passably) and have used a >Bosendorfer Concert Grand on occasion; the technique (in terms of getting >nuance) is of course much different to keyboard technique (where nuance is >basically non-existent). But the wheels'n'stuff of keyboards lead one into >realtime control, which is really where I'm at (surrounded by fader boxes >(3) and currently saving up for a Buchla Thunder). I had a friend who put wheels on his piano, on a quarter mile dry strip of tarmac he could get it to do 60 mph with the sustain pedal to the floor! Now that's realtime! > >That's probably the leather britches. Yeah! Ever seen an "oom-pah" band groupie? If you have then you would understand why the leather pants! Alan (best of the season to you and your's) > > Nick Rothwell CASSIEL Contemporary Music/Dance nick@cassiel.com > > years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:24:30 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Rap In-Reply-To: from "George Allaman" at Dec 15, 95 02:34:33 pm George Allaman writes-- > >On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > >> "WhoooooooOOOOOOOoooooooo...couldimaaaaaagine....that they would frEEak >> out...in the great state of Kansas {whoopee doopee doodoo, Kansaskansas}" > >Thank you for extemporizing, Mike! (8-) Extemporizing? Righteous indignation! My dear fellow, that is a direct quote from the song in question. Who am I to paraphrase Zappa? :) mike -- "Had I been synched to a 303 for my 21st birthday, I dare not speculate what would have become of me." (m. lundgren) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay ~ ATOMIC CITY ~ P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com --- http://pd.net/atomic-city = All of our CDs can now be ordered directly from our WWW site, or by calling INFINITE ILLUSIONS: vox 904-385-6463 or 1-800-548-6724, or FAX 904-668-5825 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:09:59 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Alan M. Bookmiller" Subject: Re: Headphones, and 48->44.1 conversion. >David Lunney writes: >The moral of the story is, the best bet is to monitor the mix on EXACTLY >the system the recording will be played back on, and in EXACTLY the same >acoustic environment. This is fine for your own music, but what about mixing for the rest of the world? When you send off a demo tape you rarely know what system the music will be played on. I find that I can't mix well using headphones. They are too isolated. Bone conduction provides the only indirect sound feedback. I much prefer a good set of "monitor" speakers with a flat response. Also, when using monitors to mix sound, one has to consider studio acoustics. A natural sound that is free of colorations is what is needed from the recorded signal to begin with. Mixing in general is an art that is influenced by both subjective and technical factors (an old thread?). I'm like alot of people, I want a top quality product, but I lack the means to get it. Using headphones or monitor speakers, just do the best you can, get your recording to the point where it sounds OK to you on several different systems and let it go at that. I find that if I can get my tapes to sound good on my car stereo system then they usually sound alright on other systems. Concerning the sampling rate conversion from 48K to 44.1K I submit the following explanation as to the "artifacts" that are generated and mentioned in the posts to this thread. I must first qualify this as my guess and certainly open to discussion - I could be totally wrong (ANYONE?). The process of analog to digital conversion (digitization) goes something like this; a modulated analog signal is combined with sampling pulses. The pulses divide the analog signal into a series of very short duration samples having the same aplitudes as the sampled analog signal. Any energy between the sampling points is discarded with, supposedly, no loss of information. The sampling rate must be twice the highest frequency generated by the analog signal (Nyquist's theorem). If a sampling rate less than the highest frequency generated is used, spurious signals could be produced due to anti-aliasing. Comparing 48K and 44.1K; the highest frequency reproduced at 48K is 24K, and the highest reproduceable frequency at 41.1 is 22.05K - there is a 1.95K high end difference. It's my guess that different digital audio products use different filters and oversampling approaches to control frequency. Distortion (artifacts) could be caused by the different digital filtration algorithms used in different audio recording machines. Outside of the above explanation I don't know what the hell the problem is, unless it has to do with unbalanced signaling or level attenuation problems. The rule of thumb when recording analog to digital is not to go over 0db on the VU meter if possible - but this usually causes clipping and not spurious signals. Maybe one of our more technically inclined list members could help us out here. Alan Bookmiller ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:42:05 PST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tom Pellicer Subject: Digital Copies I'm eight short days away from mastering my cd at Rocket Labs in San Francisco. This place isn't cheap, so I booked a slot at a lower budget studio the night before to assemble the song order and to do some quick edits. Last night I picked up the latest Electronic Musician, and there's this cool profile on a duo, Painter and Fleming, who have detailed there recording process. In it, Painter states that when he went to New York to master, he was horrified at the way the mix sounded. The midrange was noticebly heavier and the high end wasn't the same. Apparently, Painter did the same thing I'm doing, edit the songs on a hard disk at one facility, do a digital transfer back to DAT, and take that second generation digital copy to the expensive mastering house. This mastering engineer had Painter pop in the original (unedited) mix, and sure enough, it sounded right. The engineer said that this is often the case with digital copies! Uh oh. Can anyone comment on this before next Wednesday? I've mastered to a 3700, and I don't know what editing system Rocket Labs has, but the lower budget place uses Sound Tools. Tj tom_pellicer@netframe.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:54:46 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: John Krikawa Subject: Re: Digital Copies tom_pellicer@netframe.com writes > Apparently, Painter did the same thing I'm doing, edit the songs on a > hard disk at one facility, do a digital transfer back to DAT, and take > that second generation digital copy to the expensive mastering house. > This mastering engineer had Painter pop in the original (unedited) > mix, and sure enough, it sounded right. The engineer said that this > is often the case with digital copies! I read that as well, but I don't recall seeing it spelled out that they went from DAT->DAT digitally, or if there was any any rate conversion (probably not); or, if it was an analog connection, were there any boxes in between? Maybe I'll re-read it tonight. Hmm. Anyway, good luck on your session, Tom. -john ---------------------------------------------------------------------- JKRIKAWA@CCIT.Arizona.Edu Tucson, Arizona homepage-less day: (520) 626-6013 night: (520) 326-3068 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 23:59:59 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Andy Hughes Subject: Re: digital copies >Apparently, Painter did the same thing I'm doing, edit the songs on a >hard disk at one facility, do a digital transfer back to DAT, and take >that second generation digital copy to the expensive mastering house. >This mastering engineer had Painter pop in the original (unedited) >mix, and sure enough, it sounded right. The engineer said that this >is often the case with digital copies! for a couple of years now i've used "that box that gives good light" :-) that a digi engineer made for me when he freaked (sorry phreaked) me out showing me the clock drift that occurs between various units ( DAT, DtoD's, etc). There are a few commercial units available (in the uk anyway) that do the job - but i bet they dont have an analogue tape switch (unmarked of course!) and allow mastering engineers to gossip about it - where was i - oh yeah - it really makes a BIG DIFFERence (sorry caps lock stuck on). sorry this probably doesn't help at all but it's nice to use a bit of gratuitous bandwith once in a while... andy