========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: cd-recording and duplication In-Reply-To: <970119123543_1624268139@emout03.mail.aol.com> from "SINBYTE@AOL.COM" at Jan 19, 97 12:35:45 pm > > I am currently starting a business with a friend of mine, cd-recording and > duplication, ... Please direct responses to synth-l. Our querent is on both lists. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:58:13 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: need some help Comments: To: ramsy@rtns.ro In-Reply-To: <32E21F60.604E@rtns.ro> from "Radu Bogdan Draghiciu" at Jan 19, 97 03:19:28 pm > > Hi, I'm new to this list, i'm a guy from Romania and i like to know more > about Digital Audio Recording. I use an Yamaha CS1X control synth with > SU10 sampling unit, a Roland RAP-10 audio card. I plan to buy a DAT > drive for my computer, but i need some information about DAT's (specs, > accessories so on). I have a beta version od SAW Plus and Cubase 3.0 > Score. If is there anyone who can provide me with some information, I'll > be very grateful. Thanks very much > ramsy@rtns.ro > Please direct responses to synth-l. Our querent is on both lists. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:25:42 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Randy Meeker Subject: Casio CZ-1 Synthesizer Manual I am looking for someone or organization that would be willing to provide (at modest or minimal cost - or scanned into an stored media format) a manual for this old but road worthy synth. I picked one up at a tremendous price and for a stringed instrument player it had what I needed - ease of use and durability. I am searching the web for information when I located this group. I am a computer Engineer / Musician / Personal and Team Sport Enthusiast. I am currently exploring Midi software with Cakewalk, Band-in-a-Box and Roland's Singer Songwriter along with several shareware programs. Primarily a guitarist with diverse style from Bluesgrass to HardRock to Country Western to Jazz & Big Band. I am using the Midi Software to build a repetoire of backup tracks for my virtual rehearsal studio with out the scheduling conflicts of the other players. Thanks - RAM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:37:16 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: William B Fox Subject: Virtual vs. IRT > Our querent is on both lists. HEY! WHO YOU CALLING QUERENT?!?! ;-} (Sorry, I couldn't resist...) ------------------------------ > I am currently exploring Midi software with > Cakewalk, Band-in-a-Box and Roland's Singer Songwriter along with several > shareware programs. [ snip ] I am using > the Midi Software to build a repetoire of backup tracks for my virtual > rehearsal studio with out the scheduling conflicts of the other players. > Thanks - RAM Another virtual studio springs into existence at leat partly for the sake of eliminating the frustrations that stem from dealing with personalities. (And that's saying it as nice as I am able...) Don't get me wrong because I'm 100% guilty of this myself. But I am also reforming my prog band... and with _seven_ people! (That's up one from the last incarnation of ShadowPlay! And I know about frustration in assembling and holding together and replacing musicians for a variety of reasons!) As much as I love making music, be it alone or in one of the five groups of which I'm a member, I'm starting to become apprehensive about activities where we can be alone, without the interaction of other people. We're cocooning ourselves more and more thanks to personal computers, VCRs, satellite dishes, ad infinitum. To keep from straying too far into pop psychology or too far away from this list's charter, let me just remind Randy and all other solo musicians that interactive improvisation and any type of musical conversation requires at least two people to interact, usually in close proximity to each other. Using backing tracks (which never change), one can slip into the trap of creating technically perfect but very stale music. Note: By musical conversation, I don't mean verbal or written discussions such as we have on this list. I'm refering to two or more instruments interacting IRT (in real time). IRT there is danger of accidents and mistakes. In accidents and mistakes there is recovery. In danger, there is excitement. In excitement, there is good music, electronic or not. Bill BillFox@lucent.com Emusic premiers Thursday, January 23rd at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Soundwrite@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Casio CZ-1 Synthesizer Manual You can obtain a copy of the CZ-1 manual direct from Casio. Try contacting them at 1-800-555-1212 and ask for their Music # in New Jersey. If that doesn't work, send me your fax number or mailing address and I'll try and assist. Soundwriter Productions P.O. Box 3773 Englewood, Colorado 80155-3773 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:01:21 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Millard Subject: Pattern based Composition tools I am not certain that this belongs on this list but it kind of seems more appropriate here. I am curious about a package that used to be marketed called Drummer. It was a Dos based package that never made it to windows. I personally really liked the interface, I would have loved it if it had been more defined and multi channel. I have never seen anyother packages that took the same approach this package did. Am I alone in my appreciation for this form of sequencer? Does anyone no of any similar kinds of packages. I have blown many hundreds of dollars looking for the same kind of product under windows. I have bought products that were out of production as soon as I got them, and I bought them hot of the first run or two. Well, those were valuable lessons that I paid properly for. Is there a reason other vendors are not giving these kinds of views with their products? Am I just wanting an item most people wouldn't use? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:31:16 -0800 Reply-To: gtc@mbox200.swipnet.se Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jair-Rohm Organization: Glass Thought Comm Subject: Re: Pattern based Composition tools Hi; I was also a fan of DRUMMER. Recently i downloaded a shareware package called THE DRUMS PRO. It is a very DRUMMER like program (which runs under Windows) coded by a guy in Italy. I don't have the exact URL where i got it, but i'm sure that if you YAHOO on "THE DRUMS PRO" you'll come up with something. Good luck. Jair-Rohm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:09:12 -0300 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Miguel Correa Subject: Pattern based Composition tools IN>I am not certain that this belongs on this list but it kind of seems IN>more appropriate here. I am curious about a package that used to be IN>marketed called Drummer. It was a Dos based package that never made it IN>to windows. Yes... indeed, a very good program from Cool Shoes. I have it in a dark corner of my hard disk, and I still use it from time to time. BTW, another *really* great program from Cool Shoes was Sound Globs (I think version 3.0 was the last in the market), an algorithmic composer for DOS with a great user interfase (among a lot of powerful and cool tools for interactive algorithmic composition). But alas, I have it also installed, and while *all* of my other midi soft work fine, including Drummer, Sound Globs refuses to see the mpu board... :( I would appreciate any comments on Sound Globs in general (as an algorithmic composing tool) as well as suggestions on making it work. Regards Miguel Correa mac@giga.com.ar --- þ SLMR 2.1a þ A.A.A.A.A: American Association Against Acronym Abuse ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:23:06 -0600 Reply-To: dy10994@cedarnet.org Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Net Jammer, Soul Jammer Or Shoopman" Organization: Whitney Houston's (Virtual) Best Friend, I Pray-4-U. Subject: Midi Software ------------18344163DF20 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi: I subscribe to this list, and I read interesting articles. But I don't often post messages. Now, I got a question to ask. I have a midi keyboard and sound card, of course. I want to do some midi composing. You know, combining the keyboard with the power of the computer. I am very interested to hear what you guys say is the BEST Software (shareware or commercial) out there for midi composing. ** If you recommend me a commerical software, it must have at least 150 rhythm accomps. ** -- I am EXTREMELY proud of singer, writer and producer Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds. This Man has tied Michael Jackson's record of 12 Grammy nominations. Babyface is my music idol. My R&B Devotion. I listen to his music every day. So thanK U Face! I will not FINISH without mention Whitney Houston. This "VH1 Artist of Month." is always my favorite. U Go Girl!!! Herself has a chance to win R&B female Performance, with the song "Exhale - Shoop, Shoop", Produced by BABYFACE! Whitney, Face I wish you good luck on Feb 26! Shoop Shoop!!! .....Hey, U 2 online??? I am desperate to chat with yo all! - - Shoopman. ------------18344163DF20 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi:
    I subscribe to this list, and I read interesting articles. But I don't often post messages.
Now, I got a question to ask. I have a midi keyboard and sound card, of course. I want to do some midi composing. You know, combining the keyboard with the power of the computer. 
 
I am very interested to hear what you guys say is the BEST Software (shareware or commercial) out there for midi composing.
 
** If you recommend me a commerical software, it must have at least 150 rhythm accomps. **
-- 

I am EXTREMELY proud of singer, writer and producer Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds.
This Man has tied Michael Jackson's record of 12 Grammy nominations.
Babyface is my music idol. My R&B Devotion. I listen to his music every day. So thanK U Face!
I will not FINISH without mention Whitney Houston. This "VH1 Artist of Month." is always my favorite. U Go Girl!!!
Herself has a chance to win R&B female Performance, with the song "Exhale - Shoop, Shoop", Produced by BABYFACE!
Whitney, Face I wish you good luck on Feb 26! Shoop Shoop!!!

.....Hey, U 2 online??? I am desperate to chat with yo all!



 - - Shoopman.
 
------------18344163DF20-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:55:29 +1100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Erik Petersen Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT > From owner-emusic-l@AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jan 23 05:02:10 1997 > Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 05:02:09 EST > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:37:16 EST > From: William B Fox > Subject: Virtual vs. IRT > As much as I love making music, be it alone or in one of the five groups > of which I'm a member, I'm starting to become apprehensive about > activities where we can be alone, without the interaction of other > people. We're cocooning ourselves more and more thanks to personal > computers, VCRs, satellite dishes, ad infinitum. To keep from straying > too far into pop psychology or too far away from this list's charter, > let me just remind Randy and all other solo musicians that interactive > improvisation and any type of musical conversation requires at least two > people to interact, usually in close proximity to each other. Using > backing tracks (which never change), one can slip into the trap of > creating technically perfect but very stale music. > > Note: By musical conversation, I don't mean verbal or written > discussions such as we have on this list. I'm refering to two or more > instruments interacting IRT (in real time). IRT there is danger of > accidents and mistakes. In accidents and mistakes there is recovery. > In danger, there is excitement. In excitement, there is good music, > electronic or not. > > Bill BillFox@lucent.com > Emusic premiers Thursday, January 23rd at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown! > Bill, I hear what you are saying but it all depends on your viewpoint. Are you a musician making music with other musicians, or are you a composer realizing your works? A composer would prefer to work alone (with total control) and can still improvise melody etc. Look at Vangelis, Klause Schulze, Hans Zimmer, Jan Hammer, etc, etc. It's nearly 40 years now since Les Paul did his multi tracked guitar stuff, and Stevie Wonder, Lenny Kravitz, etc all do one man band albums, and a lot of electronic dance music is just one person and a machine. And even the most acoustic sounding music is electronic these days, by the time it's been equalized, had effects added, and been digitally mixed..... I don't think your "stale" music argument is very valid. But solo work is very insular and if nothing else you lose the benefit of another persons opinion! cheers, Erik -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Erik Petersen, Melbourne, Australia (ecp@preston.net) .... .... "Mistakes are to life what shadows are to light." Ernst Junger. "Looks like trouble." Kamen, Aliens vs Predator screenplay (unfilmed) "Idverymuchliketobuyapostagestampplease." Alice, through the Needle's Eye "There was nothing to be said. So I said it." Philip Marlowe P.I, Poodle Springs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:27:10 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Luca de Marinis Organization: Interseg Subject: Re: Pattern based Composition tools Michael Millard wrote: > > marketed called Drummer. It was a Dos based package that never made it > to windows. I personally really liked the interface, I would have loved > it if it had been more defined and multi channel. I have never seen > anyother packages that took the same approach this package did. Am I > alone in my appreciation for this form of sequencer? Does anyone no of > any similar kinds of packages. I've never used drummer,but from what I understand it was great for doing drum parts easily and fast. I've had some experience whith a hardware sequencer which,altrough lacked other important capabilities,had a drum pattern editing function which was beautiful.. the roland MC-50 presents you a line where n characters represent n steps of the measure.You type 9 6 3 1 and you have beats on all quarters whith decreasing velocity (hope it's clear). Well,this is 100 times faster than hunting small spots on the screen. What was drummer's interface like? > Am I just wanting an > item most people wouldn't use? Right.One point is that sequencers are to be used by compueter illiterates which usually find easier to click 25 small spots than to press enter on the keyboard.And so interfaces are biased towards mouse action,fast learning curve and reduced control. Other point is that most musicians want to sit in front of the pc and come out whith an n minutes piece.Commercial packages are good at that ,being track based and working a bit like tape recorders.Pattern based sequencers on the other hand are more suited to particular music genres and are better at live random (arbitrary) playing of patterns. Considering this,I'm developing my own pattern sequencer (under win/midishare) and it'll be different from commercial packages in that it will be fast to do things that have to be done fast, may have a command line interface not unlike the vi text editor,and will have no song structure (that is,patterns are there and you decide on the fly which to play ad when). I'd like to know what was Drummer's interface like,because if it's fast I might adopt something similar..let me know privately . Yahozna -- Luca S. G. de Marinis http://www.interseg.it/~trance/ Developing Chaos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:44:58 +0100 Reply-To: Cyprys@free.polbox.pl Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Maciej Barszczak Subject: Question HI EVERYBODY, Please help me: For six years I've been looking for a some information about music, which I heard in Polish Radio. I don't know precise name of the group, which performed it, but it sounds like "ypsway", "ipsway", "ibsway" or something like that. The title of the album was: "Synthetic Dreams". This electronic music was wonderful for me and I can't still forget it. If You can't recognize the album or group which I'm looking for, please direct me to someone, who can help me. Best Regards, Maciej Barszczak E-Mail: Cyprys@free.polbox.pl ______________________________________________________________ Polbox On-Line Service Internet Services Provider +48 22 6656363 Web Pages Design FREE EMAIL ACCOUNTS http://free.polbox.pl ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:59:00 PST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: PASCHALL DE PAOR Subject: Question This a bit off-topic (not a good start!), but I hope that someone on the list can help. I am looking for a DOS-based audio player and recorder, which is more or less command-based. It is for a postgraduate student of mine who is blind, and depends on a DOS screen reader to navigate. He simply needs to be able to record audio, manipulate (via CDP), and play it back. I've come across a few players, but somewhere along the line they use some form of graphics which requires mouse input (graphics-based editors are fine _IF_ they have keyboard control over all functions). His machine is P90, SB16, Win3.11 Many thanks Paschall de Paor -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- School of Music University College Bretton Hall West Bretton, Wakefield WF4 4LG UK ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:23:07 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: ERIC OVERTON Subject: Sound processor info? What is a sound processor used for? Will it enhance the sounds of a keyboard? Can I get "real" sounds out of my keyboard with it? Eric ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:25:20 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jon Bennett Subject: Chord progressions Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions in Tekno/Dance compositions? Jon Bennett Netsurfer Inc. (404) 815-1050 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:48:52 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Rich Johnson - NIO Subject: Re: Sound processor info? So what's a *real* sound? >---------- >From: ERIC OVERTON[SMTP:SEOVE@MARS.LERC.NASA.GOV] >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 1997 11:23 AM >To: Multiple recipients of list EMUSIC-L >Subject: Sound processor info? > >What is a sound processor used for? Will it enhance the sounds of a >keyboard? Can I get "real" sounds out of my keyboard with it? > >Eric > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:46:23 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deckard Subject: Re: Chord progressions In-Reply-To: <199701231709.MAA24276@mail.netsurfer.com> On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Jon Bennett wrote: > Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions > in Tekno/Dance compositions? I have about 400 cd's in the "electronic music" category and i can't, for the life of me, figure out chord progressions are "typical." Hmmm, but then again the "tekno" i listen to isn't typical either... ;) no@h . . . . . . ... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:09:51 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Sound Processors Eric Overton wrote: > What is a sound processor used for? Will it enhance the sounds of a > keyboard? Can I get "real" sounds out of my keyboard with it? There are many flavours of sound processors. Some control the dynamics of the signals passing through them (compressor, limiter, gate), while some change the tonal balance (equaliser) and others add echoes to make it sound as if the sound source is in a particular acoustic environment (delays and reverbs). It would help us to know what sort of effect you want before we offer more information or advice. Of course, at some point, one may feel it necessary to recommend particular pieces of gear, at which point this thread should probably be occurring on the synth-l ("gearhead") list. If we overstep the bounds of germaneness, I'm sure that Joe or Mike (our lofty list-owners) will tell us. :-) Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:30:59 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Randy Meeker Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Comments: cc: ecp@TPG.TPG.OZ.AU While I appreciate the words of wisdom supplied below, I would like Erik to know that I do not look forward to only reacting to Virtual Music but I too enjoy and prefer music conversations IRT in real time Unfortunately time is the most crucial variable - after working 10 to 12 hours a day I do not have the luxury of going to a rehearsal, running the errands necessary IRL In real Life, maintaining a relationship with my significant other, maintaining a relationship with my 16 yr old daughter, Study for Network Engineering Certification Tests..etc, etc, etc. If Midi software does nothing else it does allow me the convenience of creating my lead lines and fills on a foundation that I can count on being there when I arrange to have the time. After years of chasing around to accomadate other musician's schedules - now it's my time to make the most effective use of my time. When I actually can arrange for an IRT rehearsal or performance I am better prepared. Let me assure you I am not a solo musician but a soloist with a time problem. These tools (MidiSoftware) give me more control over my life and allows me the freedom that my artistic expression need. Live music is better, I love the magic that we can make together, but late at night when the lights are low, and the rest of the family is asleep - the muse may hit and you will need to play that tune that is dancing in your head. I can do this quietly and efficiently on my computer without waking the house - while the pianos, keyboards, guitars, dobro, mandolin and Pedal Steel guitar sit silent and still capture the essence of my muse. I trust that you will better understand my appreciation for what technology has done for me. >>> Erik Petersen 01/22/97 06:55pm >>> > From owner-emusic-l@AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jan 23 05:02:10 1997 > Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 05:02:09 EST > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:37:16 EST > From: William B Fox > Subject: Virtual vs. IRT > As much as I love making music, be it alone or in one of the five groups > of which I'm a member, I'm starting to become apprehensive about > activities where we can be alone, without the interaction of other > people. We're cocooning ourselves more and more thanks to personal > computers, VCRs, satellite dishes, ad infinitum. To keep from straying > too far into pop psychology or too far away from this list's charter, > let me just remind Randy and all other solo musicians that interactive > improvisation and any type of musical conversation requires at least two > people to interact, usually in close proximity to each other. Using > backing tracks (which never change), one can slip into the trap of > creating technically perfect but very stale music. > > Note: By musical conversation, I don't mean verbal or written > discussions such as we have on this list. I'm refering to two or more > instruments interacting IRT (in real time). IRT there is danger of > accidents and mistakes. In accidents and mistakes there is recovery. > In danger, there is excitement. In excitement, there is good music, > electronic or not. > > Bill BillFox@lucent.com > Emusic premiers Thursday, January 23rd at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown! > Bill, I hear what you are saying but it all depends on your viewpoint. Are you a musician making music with other musicians, or are you a composer realizing your works? A composer would prefer to work alone (with total control) and can still improvise melody etc. Look at Vangelis, Klause Schulze, Hans Zimmer, Jan Hammer, etc, etc. It's nearly 40 years now since Les Paul did his multi tracked guitar stuff, and Stevie Wonder, Lenny Kravitz, etc all do one man band albums, and a lot of electronic dance music is just one person and a machine. And even the most acoustic sounding music is electronic these days, by the time it's been equalized, had effects added, and been digitally mixed..... I don't think your "stale" music argument is very valid. But solo work is very insular and if nothing else you lose the benefit of another persons opinion! cheers, Erik -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Erik Petersen, Melbourne, Australia (ecp@preston.net) .... .... "Mistakes are to life what shadows are to light." Ernst Junger. "Looks like trouble." Kamen, Aliens vs Predator screenplay (unfilmed) "Idverymuchliketobuyapostagestampplease." Alice, through the Needle's Eye "There was nothing to be said. So I said it." Philip Marlowe P.I, Poodle Springs ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:41:03 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Chord progressions In-Reply-To: <199701231709.MAA24276@mail.netsurfer.com> from "Jon Bennett" at Jan 23, 97 11:25:20 am Jon Bennett writes-- > >Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions >in Tekno/Dance compositions? I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I or, for the technically advanced, I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV mike -- "I'm going through a phase where I'm learning how much I don't know, and I don't want to say anything unless it A. is correct and B. contributes.... Geez, all the lists would dry up if everyone was in the same phase." (cikira) ========================================================================== Mike Metlay - ATOMIC CITY - P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA 15217-0675 USA = atomic@netcom.com -- http://pd.net/atomic-city -- 800.924.ATOM = CD orders via LOFTY PURSUITS: 800.548.6724 & 904.385.6463, FAX 904.668.5825 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:19:30 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tim Thompson Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply > These tools (MidiSoftware) give me more control over my life and allows me > the freedom that my artistic expression need. Live music is better, I > love the magic that we can make together, but late at night when the lights > are low, and the rest of the family is asleep - the muse may hit and you > will need to play that tune that is dancing in your head. I can do this > quietly and efficiently on my computer without waking the house And, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do this at the same time that I am in my room, quiet and with the lights low, and we are both interacting in realtime, communicating by voice, and using in a common sequencer environment. We won't be able to play in exact synchronization and hear each other at the same time, but we will be able to jointly compose. (The following is a fictional account of what is easily possible.) You will play something. It will be recorded and shown to both of us. You'll say (via voice) "try playing a solo over that", and I'll play it back and play a solo over it. You'll hear the combination in realtime (but delayed by a second or two, say), and as soon as I'm done, you'll say "great, I love it! Let me add some drums." Etc. etc. I would want to do this with anyone in the world who happens to be awake at 11pmPST and wants to do it. I will see a directory of people who want to interact, and I can preview their previous compositions to determine whether they have the right capabilities (talent, taste, style) that I want to interact with at that moment. That's what I'm looking forward to, anyway. Anyone building that kind of thing? ...Tim...tjt@nosuch.com... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: Chord progressions In-Reply-To: the chords, if you know what's in them, is I-V-I or I-V-IV-V-I. this is most house and trance shite. nothing particularly interesting. corey On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Deckard wrote: > On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Jon Bennett wrote: > > > Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions > > in Tekno/Dance compositions? > > I have about 400 cd's in the "electronic music" category and i > can't, for the life of me, figure out chord progressions are > "typical." Hmmm, but then again the "tekno" i listen to isn't > typical either... > ;) > no@h > . . . . . . ... > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply In-Reply-To: personally, sequencing allows me to firstly play instruments i am not adept at -played by a keybrd- and i can play more than one at a time. but, as erik said, i am into comp, not "real" music. dropping a reference to the orb, where can you make the sound of a computer laughing underwater on a real instrument or even a real object? they are two different worlds, tho one can suplement the other. corey On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Randy Meeker wrote: > While I appreciate the words of wisdom supplied below, I would like Erik to > know that I do not look forward to only reacting to Virtual Music but I too > enjoy and prefer music conversations IRT in real time Unfortunately time is > the most crucial variable - after working 10 to 12 hours a day I do not > have the luxury of going to a rehearsal, running the errands necessary IRL > In real Life, maintaining a relationship with my significant other, > maintaining a relationship with my 16 yr old daughter, Study for Network > Engineering Certification Tests..etc, etc, etc. > > If Midi software does nothing else it does allow me the convenience of > creating my lead lines and fills on a foundation that I can count on being > there when I arrange to have the time. After years of chasing around to > accomadate other musician's schedules - now it's my time to make the most > effective use of my time. When I actually can arrange for an IRT rehearsal > or performance I am better prepared. Let me assure you I am not a solo > musician but a soloist with a time problem. > > These tools (MidiSoftware) give me more control over my life and allows me > the freedom that my artistic expression need. Live music is better, I > love the magic that we can make together, but late at night when the lights > are low, and the rest of the family is asleep - the muse may hit and you > will need to play that tune that is dancing in your head. I can do this > quietly and efficiently on my computer without waking the house - while the > pianos, keyboards, guitars, dobro, mandolin and Pedal Steel guitar sit > silent and still capture the essence of my muse. I trust that you will > better understand my appreciation for what technology has done for me. > > > > >>> Erik Petersen 01/22/97 06:55pm >>> > > From owner-emusic-l@AMERICAN.EDU Thu Jan 23 05:02:10 1997 > > Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 05:02:09 EST > > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:37:16 EST > > From: William B Fox > > Subject: Virtual vs. IRT > > > As much as I love making music, be it alone or in one of the five groups > > of which I'm a member, I'm starting to become apprehensive about > > activities where we can be alone, without the interaction of other > > people. We're cocooning ourselves more and more thanks to personal > > computers, VCRs, satellite dishes, ad infinitum. To keep from straying > > too far into pop psychology or too far away from this list's charter, > > let me just remind Randy and all other solo musicians that interactive > > improvisation and any type of musical conversation requires at least two > > people to interact, usually in close proximity to each other. Using > > backing tracks (which never change), one can slip into the trap of > > creating technically perfect but very stale music. > > > > Note: By musical conversation, I don't mean verbal or written > > discussions such as we have on this list. I'm refering to two or more > > instruments interacting IRT (in real time). IRT there is danger of > > accidents and mistakes. In accidents and mistakes there is recovery. > > In danger, there is excitement. In excitement, there is good music, > > electronic or not. > > > > Bill BillFox@lucent.com > > Emusic premiers Thursday, January 23rd at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, > Allentown! > > > > > Bill, > I hear what you are saying but it all depends on your viewpoint. > Are > you a musician making music with other musicians, or are you a composer > realizing your works? A composer would prefer to work alone (with total > control) and can still improvise melody etc. Look at Vangelis, Klause > Schulze, > Hans Zimmer, Jan Hammer, etc, etc. It's nearly 40 years now since Les Paul > did > his multi tracked guitar stuff, and Stevie Wonder, Lenny Kravitz, etc all > do one > man band albums, and a lot of electronic dance music is just one person and > a > machine. And even the most acoustic sounding music is electronic these > days, by > the time it's been equalized, had effects added, and been digitally > mixed..... > I don't think your "stale" music argument is very valid. But solo work is > very > insular and if nothing else you lose the benefit of another persons > opinion! > > cheers, > Erik > > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > Erik Petersen, Melbourne, Australia (ecp@preston.net) > .... .... > "Mistakes are to life what shadows are to light." Ernst Junger. > "Looks like trouble." Kamen, Aliens vs Predator screenplay (unfilmed) > "Idverymuchliketobuyapostagestampplease." Alice, through the Needle's Eye > "There was nothing to be said. So I said it." Philip Marlowe P.I, Poodle > Springs > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:49:42 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: Pattern based Composition tools Hi All, I have Drummer for dos. Its fun. The also vanished into software limbo Maxpac, has a pattern editor. Lets you save up to 256 patterns with each song. You can also enter a pattern, and it will automaticly duplicate it untill the track is filled. Power Chords Pro is an excellent pattern based sequencer. Uses a drummer type pattern grid for everything. Also imports any midi file or tracks and breaks it up into nice icon patterns. These are the three pattern based packages that I use. My Amiga Bars and Pipes has a nice pattern tool. Happy Sounds Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox - Worlds 1st Voice to Midi. Real Time Hardware. BioSensor Neckband. Rack Mount Brain. Sing, Hum, Scat, Croon, Rap, Talk, Scream . AES Best in Show. EM's Editors Choice. Become a Human Sequencer & Human Vocoder. Can You Hum a Bass, Sing Like a Sax? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:09:16 -0800 Reply-To: gtc@mbox200.swipnet.se Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jair-Rohm Organization: Glass Thought Comm Subject: unsubscribe unsuscribe gtc@mbox200.swipnet.se ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 00:50:33 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Chord progressions At 04:41 PM 1/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >Jon Bennett writes-- >> >>Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions >>in Tekno/Dance compositions? > >I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I > >or, for the technically advanced, > >I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV > > >mike > less is more... ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:01:42 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Chord progressions At 01:46 PM 1/23/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Jon Bennett wrote: > >> Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions >> in Tekno/Dance compositions? > > I have about 400 cd's in the "electronic music" category and i > can't, for the life of me, figure out chord progressions are > "typical." Hmmm, but then again the "tekno" i listen to isn't > typical either... > ;) > no@h > . . . . . . ... > > Techno / dance / house / etc. was born from experimentation in arrangement as well as sound. It's tough to analyze as you have found out, but thats the beauty of it. Much of it is created with arpeggiators and other modules, which create those progressions you hear. Another way the music is created is through step-time, which gives the music that computerized feel (when techno weas born, it was done by musicians who could only afford cheap electronic instruments from goodwills and pawn shops. Those cheap instruments didn't offer real-time recording). The music is very simple because it is hypnotic. The more hypnotic, the better. - Courtney ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:29:50 -0500 Reply-To: brittont@rbdc.rbdc.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Britton Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Tim Thompson wrote: > > > These tools (MidiSoftware) give me more control over my life and allows me > > the freedom that my artistic expression need. Live music is better, I > > love the magic that we can make together, but late at night when the lights > > are low, and the rest of the family is asleep - the muse may hit and you > > will need to play that tune that is dancing in your head. I can do this > > quietly and efficiently on my computer without waking the house > > And, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do this at the same time > that I am in my room, quiet and with the lights low, and we are both > interacting in realtime, communicating by voice, and using in a > common sequencer environment. We won't be able to play in exact > synchronization and hear each other at the same time, but we will be able > to jointly compose. (The following is a fictional account of what is > easily possible.) You will play something. It will be recorded and shown > to both of us. You'll say (via voice) "try playing a solo over that", and > I'll play it back and play a solo over it. You'll hear the combination in > realtime (but delayed by a second or two, say), and as soon as I'm done, > you'll say "great, I love it! Let me add some drums." Etc. etc. > I would want to do this with anyone in the world who happens to be awake > at 11pmPST and wants to do it. I will see a directory of people who > want to interact, and I can preview their previous compositions to > determine whether they have the right capabilities (talent, taste, style) > that I want to interact with at that moment. > > That's what I'm looking forward to, anyway. Anyone building that > kind of thing? ...Tim...tjt@nosuch.com... I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: Who owns the copyright?? (I have a lot of music business items growing at my website. Check out the 'Music Business Primer' in the first few articles for revelations concerning copyright issues, as well as tips in doing it.)(And more.) http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont Terry Leigh Britton PS: Copyright on the internet is a very uncertain issue right now, between the US Copyright Office not being perfectly clear yet, and there being few clarifying court cases to set precedents, it is a murky region. I'd stay out of it for the next five years or so, if you want my opinion.... TLB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:00:21 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness When something is described as being "stochastic" it means it's behavior is partially influenced or controlled by some random, but well defined events. An everyday example is a board game where movement of the pieces is controlled by rolling dice. Now imagine the game Monopoly for a moment. For those who haven't seen it, it's a "toy" for indoctrinating young future capitalists in the ruthless ways of the free market. The goal is to accumulate all wealth by bankrupting your blood relatives. Especialy bigger siblings and parents. In Monopoly, pieces move in a clockwise manner around the perimeter of a square according to the throw of dice, and land on various properties which are owned or available for purchase. When you lad on a property owned by someone else you must pay them rent. If you don't have enough money to pay the rent, you are out of the game. The game is a "stochastic process" since the movement of each person's piece around the game board is totally determined by the random numbers generated by rolling dice. Making "stochastic" music can involve designing a scheme, usually entirely contained inside a computer's memory which "plays" a well defined "game" like our monopoly analogy by moving each musical instrument around within the universe of sounds that instrument can create. Rather than being constrained to a two dimensional board, the instrument is constrained to the range of pitches the instrument can produce, the range of volumes from soft to loud it can produce, the range of timbres, etc. To set up simple "stochastic music generators" all you have to do is assign each square on a monopoly board a pitch, and play that note while indoctrinating your offspring. Of course it ain't likely to produce a new Brandenburg Concerto. The alchemy in stochastic music composition comes in when you try to contruct a process, system, algorithm or "game" that is capable of or likely to produce music somebody would enjoy hearing (profound, innovative, emotional and imaginative) and would believe was composed by a human with a talent for musical composition. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:00:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Randy Meeker Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply If less is more, then nothing would be the most! <> While some Techno/Tekno/Dance music can be a shimmering delight some dirges drone on to a mindless hypnotic, pointless stupor and probably reach it's intended audience squarely where they perceive that society has placed them. As a self actualized individual I am discerning and prejudiced and tend to generalize out of my own convenience. Diversity may well be great but Rap is not music but rather performance art that takes the Webster's definition music to it's outer limit. Techno / Industrial music seems to be the 90's embodiment of entertainment to the superficial masses that used to perceive Disco as a phenomenon and those that prefer "country attire" and like to line dance just like their conforming neighbor...the lack of creativity and expressiveness of such forms of art are devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view that I would prefer to examine. While the enjoyment of any genre of music or art may be limited and esoteric, I challenge you to take responsibility for your own perception of art and instead of always tearing down the existing forms or isolating yourself and looking for ways to be different as a method toward self worth, uniqueness, and feeling important; try to create art that can add to mankind's experience and that explains the mystery that are woven into life's complex tapestry -RAM. >>> Courtney Nielsen 01/24/97 03:50am >>> At 04:41 PM 1/23/97 -0800, you wrote: >Jon Bennett writes-- >> >>Can anyone give me some examples of the "typical" chord progressions >>in Tekno/Dance compositions? > >I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I > >or, for the technically advanced, > >I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV-I-IV > > >mike > less is more... ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:14:21 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tim Thompson Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply > > > will need to play that tune that is dancing in your head. I can do this > > > quietly and efficiently on my computer without waking the house > > And, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do this at the same time > > that I am in my room, quiet and with the lights low, and we are both > > interacting in realtime, communicating by voice, and using in a > > common sequencer environment. > Who owns the copyright?? Reasonable question. Part of the information we need, before we start jointly doing something, is what the intentions are and who owns the copyright, if any, that we want to claim. (E.g. there would be a checkmark next to my directory entry, in the collaboration index, indicating whether "copyright is important" or not.) Side question - do you do that every time you jam with a fellow musician, and come up with some really great riff, and it ends up on your next album? Was it explicit or implicit? The collaboration software would have hooks to use encrypted (SSL, PGP, whatever) connections, so that if we wanted to have a private collaboration, we could, to really protect the copyright. The same issue already applies to private email - if you are sending things around (like a copyrighted article you're sending to a publisher), and you really really care about protecting, you encrypt it. It may be that things on the internet will be "implicitly" copyrighted, the way (I think?) they might be in other forms, but by encrypting it I think you eliminate the need to wait for that to be decided. I'm not a copyright expert, though, so this is uninformed rambling... ...Tim...tjt@nosuch.com... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:07:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Comments: To: brittont@rbdc.rbdc.com I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: Who owns the copyright?? Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a work for hire situation, I would assume that all the participants share the copyright of the "performance", and that whoever wrote the tune had the author rights to the song. If it was "written" by more than one person, wouldn't they share the rights? Your right, though, copyright and the net is a very murky field right now. -Peter ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:29:06 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Will Moore Subject: Re: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness If this sounds interesting to you and you haven't already heard it, try Brian Eno's "Music for Airports". Fantastic. > From: "Robert M. Sanders" > Subject: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness > The alchemy in stochastic music composition comes in when you try to > contruct a process, system, algorithm or "game" that is capable of > or likely to produce music somebody would enjoy hearing (profound, > innovative, emotional and imaginative) and would believe was > composed by a human with a talent for musical composition. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: jefff@dgii.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jeff Fried Organization: digi international Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU wrote: > > I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: > > Who owns the copyright?? > > Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a > work for hire situation, I would assume that > all the participants share the copyright of > the "performance", and that whoever wrote the > tune had the author rights to the song. If it > was "written" by more than one person, > wouldn't they share the rights? > > Your right, though, copyright and the net is > a very murky field right now. > -Peter Whoever is the author of the song or composition owns the copyright. Should the performance generate income, the copyright holder and publisher must be paid performance royalties. Should the performance be recorded and the recording generates income, the author (copyright owner) and publisher split mechanical rights ($0.057 per tune--there is a higher time based rate for tunes > 7 minutes, I don't recall what it is). If the performance is a group improvisation, then I suppose all the participants are the authors and share the copyright. However, should that improvisation be based on a pre-existing tune, then performance royalities etc must be paid to the original copyright owner regardless of how much the improv changes the tune. -- Jeff. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:13:15 -0500 Reply-To: brittont@rbdc.rbdc.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Britton Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > > > > I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: > > Who owns the copyright?? > > Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a > work for hire situation, I would assume that > all the participants share the copyright of > the "performance", and that whoever wrote the > tune had the author rights to the song. If it > was "written" by more than one person, > wouldn't they share the rights? > > Your right, though, copyright and the net is > a very murky field right now. > -Peter Peter: My question was more to point out that murky fact: that the internet is not a very safe place copyright-wise. In a group-write endeavor, where all the participants never meet, how is it decided/documented who did the actual composition (as opposed to helping out on arrangement details, for instance). There is no way for the parties to meet and sign agreements and such, and in a multiple-authorship scenario, one person has to act as the "contact person" for the rest when filling out the copyright registration form (typically form PA, though in electronic music, sometimes SR is more appropriate as the sound of the thing is so intrinsic to the composition). Say I appear out of the blue after a tune written this way becomes a hit, and declare that I was in on the authorship...indeed, that the whole melody line was my idea!...and was never told that it went on to be copyrighted and developed. ANYBODY could make this claim! I doubt very much that George Harrison will have anything at all to do with this kind of thing!! ;) Further, here is an open letter by another person who sent me E-mail: > > Let's say I'm Larry Lounge Lizard, and I'm contemplating opening a home > page and putting those DAT snippets of my weekly gig on the damned > thing for egotistical purposes. > > Larry's gig: Fri & sat night hotel lounge with a female vocalist (Kitten) > doing wornout standards like "My Funny Valentine" and "Love Me > Tender" in between the majic tricks done by the Cambodian bartender. > > Issue: Do Larry and Kitten have to pay some firm somewhere a royalty to > post their stuff? : That is where things to do with the internet are so fuzzy right now. Ir it were any other mechanical medium, the answer would be, "Yes, they should call the Harry Fox Agency (Harry Fox is long dead, but the agency retains his name in honorarium) and ask for the forms to secure the rights to use the other author's music and pay the standard licensing fees (which, by the way, are very cheap in most media)." If it were a record or CD and they were playing covers of someone's tunes, they would pay a few cents per-unit-sold to the copyright owners through the Harry Fox Agency so that everybody gets paid their due. [Virtually any tune can be licensed through the Fox agency. It requires you fill out this tiny form with the name of the song and the author. It is SOOOO easy!] Here is the issue, though: IS the internet PUBLISHING? Or is it BROADCASTING??? If it is broadcasting, then ASCAP, BMI or SESAC (in the USA) would be handling the collection of royalties due the copyright owners, not Harry Fox Agency (this is Performance royalties vs. mechanical royalties). They currently don't. So, who IS responsible for compensating the authors of works in a fair and equitable way?? The issue is unsettled. The US Copyright office is almost daily (it seems) making some announcement concerning this, and other "intellectual properties" issues as regards computers and the internet. Till the dust settles, I would shy away from publishing (or distributing or performing or whatever) anything but original works via the internet...and then there is the danger of someone stealing your stuff and claiming "innocent infringement" to get away with it. (see the article on this in the Music Business Primer in the addendum to the copyright section on my home page: http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ) I would personally just keep my music off the internet for right now, unless I feel daring or don't care whether someone in the Ukraine feels he has the right by non-existing international laws to take whatever he wants off the internet. So, I hope I have answered your question, though this isn't likely what you wanted to hear! :) Don't worry, in a few years all this will be settled...as it was when radio (formerly intended only for information exchange like the internet was) became an important medium for the transmission of music to the public. But, it isn't there yet! More questions? Ask away! ........ Terry Leigh Britton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:43:34 -0700 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "x.x" Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? Comments: cc: Randy Meeker In-Reply-To: Randy Meeker said.... >the lack of creativity and expressiveness of such >forms of art are devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view that >I would prefer to examine. ...Given...Rap in it's Pop/MTV state, with it's intimidating styles and sociologicly destructive attitudes causes more problems than it solves, but IMO techno is reaching further than a simple onlooker, of any particular culture, can perceive...If you were to travel to India and look upon the people, would you see simply the dirt and rags, or would you see the beauty of a culture that is deep with history and transformation...My culture is known for many things...The media sees drugs and slack, the older generation sees something they fear, something foreign, young people stumbling out of warehouses at 7 in the morning, as the rest of the world goes to church on Sunday. The police see something they must destroy, a 2 sided coin...those with money(and the permits) and those who go against the rules...If you've got the money, the cops don't care what you do behind closed doors(and this is where our hedonistic reputation comes from), but if you do it for the love(instead of the money), if you provide a location for people to experience community, and fail to pay their exorbitant fees(sometimes as much as $7,000), you will be shut down. From my personal standpoint, a young composer, deeply involved in the underground electronic/experimental/trance revolution in San Francisco, I would implore you to look deeper into this culture and "ask one to know one"...I have seen amazing things here, in the underground. Communities that are based on compassion and generousity. People who slave their time away to provide FREE parties, that seriously change lives. It is a culture that shows the utmost respect to those involved, and does as much as it can for ppl outside the community... We organize food drives, we give money when we can, we fight for the things we believe in, and most importantly, we love each other like brother and sister...I have a family that I will spend my whole life fighting for, I expect us to change the world(in what ever ways we can), I will expect nothing less than the best from us, and so far I have not been dissapointed(and no, I will not allow myself to be an old man with memories of chances that slipped through my fingers...in this World Crisis, there is no tomorrow, without a fight)... >try to create art that can add >to mankind's experience and that explains the mystery that are woven into >life's complex tapestry We do...cultural art. Respecting your companions and those you have never met, giving them the compassion that we were given in birth, but quickly lost beneath the talons of a cruel, beautifully compelling world...In our idealistic minds, the way we act toward one-and-other, will make a difference. It is good to be idealistic. This is how revolutions begin... >devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view Sometimes the most beautiful things in life are those that are seen as repulsive...This is the beauty of the underground...The underground has no rockstars(and no, the Prodigy & Chemical Brothers do not classify as underground)...It was built upon faceless, tireless music production machines, who had a vision...The real music is still being made from underneath this guise of anonymity. The best artists will never make a music video, will never use those cheesy stab noises we're all sick to death of, will always evolve their form to include the emotions of the moment... But, most definitely, this is not a art form devoid of the positive. It's all about the positive(and this is not just the Ecstasy talking)...Ever listen to house...Deva's...Argh...although annoying, it's most definitely positive...How about Melodic Trance? Some of the sweetest sounds imagineable? So what if it's a loop...Music doesn't always have to be horizontally constructed on a melodic scale...There are many other timbres left to explore...Basslines, drum loops The underground is not your friend, and doesn't really want to be...You have to come and turn over the rocks to find the diamonds that lie beneath... PLUR x ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:05:06 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply At 02:00 PM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >If less is more, then nothing would be the most! > <> >While some Techno/Tekno/Dance music can be a shimmering delight some dirges >drone on to a mindless hypnotic, pointless stupor and probably reach it's >intended audience squarely where they perceive that society has placed >them. As a self actualized individual I am discerning and prejudiced and >tend to generalize out of my own convenience. > >Diversity may well be great but Rap is not music but rather performance art >that takes the Webster's definition music to it's outer limit. Techno / >Industrial music seems to be the 90's embodiment of entertainment to the >superficial masses that used to perceive Disco as a phenomenon and those >that prefer "country attire" and like to line dance just like their >conforming neighbor...the lack of creativity and expressiveness of such >forms of art are devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view that >I would prefer to examine. > >While the enjoyment of any genre of music or art may be limited and >esoteric, I challenge you to take responsibility for your own perception of >art and instead of always tearing down the existing forms or isolating >yourself and looking for ways to be different as a method toward self >worth, uniqueness, and feeling important; try to create art that can add >to mankind's experience and that explains the mystery that are woven into >life's complex tapestry > >-RAM. > So when did you become an authority on what is creative and expressive? Did you tap into the minds of techno and rap artists? No one knows what is creative and expressive except the artist who created the work. Its obvious you dont even know what the music is, as you don't see it as enlightening. If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't understand it. Perhaps you should look back as few as 5-10 years ago when any form of electronic music was not considered "real" music or art by most. I suggest that you read the last paragraph you wrote... and stop deciding what you feel is creative and what is not. Open your eyes - Refusal to accept forms of art, whether you like them or not, is completely backwards. -C ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:07 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Paulo Mouat Subject: Re: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness > When something is described as being "stochastic" it means it's > behavior is partially influenced or controlled by some random, but > well defined events. So, if that something is only *partially* influenced by some random events, then is stochastic still "a fancy adjective for randomness"? There is something more going on a stochastic process than simple randomness. > To set up simple "stochastic music generators" all you have to do is > assign each square on a monopoly board a pitch, and play that note > while indoctrinating your offspring. There are many more "useful ways" of getting the results. This might qualify as a stochastic process, but perhaps hardly one that is of use in musical composition. For one, the intended goal or convergent state is too undefined this way (depending on what is intended, of course--my own appreciation calls for a perceivable and logic process, not pure randomness). > Of course it ain't likely to produce a new Brandenburg Concerto. It is surely not what is intended. If it were so, one could use some variation of Mozart's dice game more appropriate to Bach and be happy with it. The "action" is elsewhere. > The alchemy in stochastic music composition comes in when you try to > contruct a process, system, algorithm or "game" that is capable of > or likely to produce music somebody would enjoy hearing (profound, > innovative, emotional and imaginative) and would believe was > composed by a human with a talent for musical composition. It is all a matter of defining the constraints. That's where the art is. Best! -- __|__ ___\_/___ ___ Paulo Mouat, |___| mouat@mail.telepac.pt |___| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:10:00 -0500 Reply-To: brittont@rbdc.rbdc.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Britton Subject: Re: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness Paulo Mouat wrote: > > > When something is described as being "stochastic" it means it's > > behavior is partially influenced or controlled by some random, but > > well defined events. > > So, if that something is only *partially* influenced by some random > events, then is stochastic still "a fancy adjective for randomness"? > There is something more going on a stochastic process than simple > randomness. > > > To set up simple "stochastic music generators" all you have to do is > > assign each square on a monopoly board a pitch, and play that note > > while indoctrinating your offspring. > > There are many more "useful ways" of getting the results. This might > qualify as a stochastic process, but perhaps hardly one that is of use > in musical composition. For one, the intended goal or convergent state > is too undefined this way (depending on what is intended, of course--my > own appreciation calls for a perceivable and logic process, not pure > randomness). > > > Of course it ain't likely to produce a new Brandenburg Concerto. > > It is surely not what is intended. If it were so, one could use some > variation of Mozart's dice game more appropriate to Bach and be happy > with it. The "action" is elsewhere. > > > The alchemy in stochastic music composition comes in when you try to > > contruct a process, system, algorithm or "game" that is capable of > > or likely to produce music somebody would enjoy hearing (profound, > > innovative, emotional and imaginative) and would believe was > > composed by a human with a talent for musical composition. > > It is all a matter of defining the constraints. That's where the art > is. > > Best! > -- > __|__ > ___\_/___ > ___ Paulo Mouat, > |___| mouat@mail.telepac.pt > |___| Good lord!! Techno people clamoring for acceptance on my right, and stachastic (any relation to spastic?) defining limits to create art out of noisy-ness on my left... Where the heck am *I*??? And the voice of the erudite heavies weighing like a damacles sword over me... I'm certain to be flamed no matter what I say here! If anyone is successfully making rules of a game up and defining constraints, it is the techno-freaks on acid and ectasy...a truly mind-randomizing pair of influences... and weed...a truly ACTION-randomizing influence (as in, gets little done but thinks that little amounts to a lot.) With the societal constraints of "coolness" and group-acceptance inserted so dramatically into their stochastic system, we should appreciate more how successful this group has been in generating music capable of "influencing and reflecting the idealism of the potent young." Quite a bit more of a success than anything John Cage (several erudites' god) produced outside of the constraints of academia! Right??? Defining constraints, though an important part of art, is not the art. All youth are not artists simply because they constrain themselves so with coolness. All erudite are not artists simply because they constrain themselves with "rules" for their games, so as to (as John Cage put it) "stay out of the way of their music." Anyone who says, "It's as finished as I'm wanting to make it at this time--because I like it the way it is at this point, so it is completed" is probably an artist. Being an artist implies control over more than merely one's constraints, but control over when the piece is released as completed as well. An artist takes total responsibility for the results unleashed upon the public, and imposes his or her's own brand of "it may not be Art, but I know what I like" upon us. ART ArT ARt aRT aRt arT Art art Terry Leigh Britton (former erudite) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Britton Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > > > > I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: > > Who owns the copyright?? > > Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a > work for hire situation, I would assume that > all the participants share the copyright of > the "performance", and that whoever wrote the > tune had the author rights to the song. If it > was "written" by more than one person, > wouldn't they share the rights? > > Your right, though, copyright and the net is > a very murky field right now. > -Peter Peter: My question was more to point out that murky fact: that the internet is not a very safe place copyright-wise. In a group-write endeavor, where all the participants never meet, how is it decided/documented who did the actual composition (as opposed to helping out on arrangement details, for instance). There is no way for the parties to meet and sign agreements and such, and in a multiple-authorship scenario, one person has to act as the "contact person" for the rest when filling out the copyright registration form (typically form PA, though in electronic music, sometimes SR is more appropriate as the sound of the thing is so intrinsic to the composition). Say I appear out of the blue after a tune written this way becomes a hit, and declare that I was in on the authorship...indeed, that the whole melody line was my idea!...and was never told that it went on to be copyrighted and developed. ANYBODY could make this claim! I doubt very much that George Harrison will have anything at all to do with this kind of thing!! ;) Further, here is an open letter by another person who sent me E-mail: .......start of open letter....... > > Let's say I'm Larry Lounge Lizard, and I'm contemplating opening a home > page and putting those DAT snippets of my weekly gig on the damned > thing for egotistical purposes. > > Larry's gig: Fri & sat night hotel lounge with a female vocalist (Kitten) > doing wornout standards like "My Funny Valentine" and "Love Me > Tender" in between the majic tricks done by the Cambodian bartender. > > Issue: Do Larry and Kitten have to pay some firm somewhere a royalty to > post their stuff? : That is where things to do with the internet are so fuzzy right now. Ir it were any other mechanical medium, the answer would be, "Yes, they should call the Harry Fox Agency (Harry Fox is long dead, but the agency retains his name in honorarium) and ask for the forms to secure the rights to use the other author's music and pay the standard licensing fees (which, by the way, are very cheap in most media)." If it were a record or CD and they were playing covers of someone's tunes, they would pay a few cents per-unit-sold to the copyright owners through the Harry Fox Agency so that everybody gets paid their due. [Virtually any tune can be licensed through the Fox agency. It requires you fill out this tiny form with the name of the song and the author. It is SOOOO easy!] Here is the issue, though: IS the internet PUBLISHING? Or is it BROADCASTING??? If it is broadcasting, then ASCAP, BMI or SESAC (in the USA) would be handling the collection of royalties due the copyright owners, not Harry Fox Agency (this is Performance royalties vs. mechanical royalties). They currently don't. So, who IS responsible for compensating the authors of works in a fair and equitable way?? The issue is unsettled. The US Copyright office is almost daily (it seems) making some announcement concerning this, and other "intellectual properties" issues as regards computers and the internet. Till the dust settles, I would shy away from publishing (or distributing or performing or whatever) anything but original works via the internet...and then there is the danger of someone stealing your stuff and claiming "innocent infringement" to get away with it. (see the article on this in the Music Business Primer in the addendum to the copyright section on my home page: http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ) I would personally just keep my music off the internet for right now, unless I feel daring or don't care whether someone in the Ukraine feels he has the right by non-existing international laws to take whatever he wants off the internet. So, I hope I have answered your question, though this isn't likely what you wanted to hear! :) Don't worry, in a few years all this will be settled...as it was when radio (formerly intended only for information exchange like the internet was) became an important medium for the transmission of music to the public. But, it isn't there yet! ........end of open letter..... Terry Leigh Britton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:25:30 -0600 Reply-To: skelly@iserv.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Subject: Re: chords progressions-reply "While some Techno/Tekno/Dance music can be a shimmering delight some dirges drone on to a mindless hypnotic, pointless stupor and probably reach it's intended audience squarely where they perceive that society has placed them. As a self actualized individual I am discerning and prejudiced and tend to generalize out of my own convenience. Diversity may well be great but Rap is not music but rather performance art that takes the Webster's definition music to it's outer limit. Techno / Industrial music seems to be the 90's embodiment of entertainment to the superficial masses that used to perceive Disco as a phenomenon and those that prefer "country attire" and like to line dance just like their conforming neighbor...the lack of creativity and expressiveness of such forms of art are devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view that I would prefer to examine. While the enjoyment of any genre of music or art may be limited and esoteric, I challenge you to take responsibility for your own perception of art and instead of always tearing down the existing forms or isolating yourself and looking for ways to be different as a method toward self worth, uniqueness, and feeling important; try to create art that can add to mankind's experience and that explains the mystery that are woven into life's complex tapestry" Hello everybody...first of all I am new at this listserv stuff and this group and after reading this...it did catch my attention. Really all I want to say is that...MUSIC IS UNIVERSAL AND PEOPLE ARE DIVERSE... -- Steven Kelly ever onward skelly@iserv.net http://www.iserv.net/~skelly ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:40:47 -0600 Reply-To: skelly@iserv.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Subject: Is techno a benefit to culture? Is techno a benefit to culture?...hmmm.. well that depends on who you are. Are you open minded, positive, negative...people are different there is no way to please everybody that is where there are some many different sytles of music which I think is great. I love techno and music of the like and I love 'alternative' and rap and classical music from India. People should just accept the fact that people are different and want different styles of music. Now as far as just techno x quoted "...The media sees drugs and slack, the older generation sees something they fear, something foreign, young people stumbling out of warehouses at 7 in the morning, as the rest of the world goes to church on Sunday..." unfortunately that is too, media sees drugs, older generation sees fear, the youth is just having a good time There was a show on just last night talking about how rave parties is nothing more than youth going to dance party and doing drugs(Ecstasy, lsd) I have never been to a rave but I know that its not all about drugs...its people getting together and having fun...its life i agree with ya x the sounds are great ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:37:30 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Millard Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply Someone wrote: > > At 02:00 PM 1/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >If less is more, then nothing would be the most! > > <> > >While some Techno/Tekno/Dance music can be a shimmering delight some dirges > >drone on to a mindless hypnotic, pointless stupor and probably reach it's > >intended audience squarely where they perceive that society has placed > >them. As a self actualized individual I am discerning and prejudiced and > >tend to generalize out of my own convenience. > > > >Diversity may well be great but Rap is not music but rather performance art > >that takes the Webster's definition music to it's outer limit. Techno / > >Industrial music seems to be the 90's embodiment of entertainment to the > >superficial masses that used to perceive Disco as a phenomenon and those > >that prefer "country attire" and like to line dance just like their > >conforming neighbor...the lack of creativity and expressiveness of such > >forms of art are devoid of the positive and up lifting points of view that > >I would prefer to examine. > > > >While the enjoyment of any genre of music or art may be limited and > >esoteric, I challenge you to take responsibility for your own perception of > >art and instead of always tearing down the existing forms or isolating > >yourself and looking for ways to be different as a method toward self > >worth, uniqueness, and feeling important; try to create art that can add > >to mankind's experience and that explains the mystery that are woven into > >life's complex tapestry > > > >-RAM. > > > > So when did you become an authority on what is creative and expressive? Did > you tap into the minds of techno and rap artists? No one knows what is > creative and expressive except the artist who created the work. Its obvious > you dont even know what the music is, as you don't see it as enlightening. > If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country > - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't > understand it. Perhaps you should look back as few as 5-10 years ago when > any form of electronic music was not considered "real" music or art by most. > > I suggest that you read the last paragraph you wrote... and stop deciding > what you feel is creative and what is not. Open your eyes - Refusal to > accept forms of art, whether you like them or not, is completely backwards. > > -C > ________________________________________ > Courtney Nielsen > Electronic Artists Collective > (408) 275-9972 > cnielsen@earthlink.net > ________________________________________ I would like to say Bravo to my friend Courtney for his typical but well placed responce. Music is or should be an act of creative expression. I must insist that even Mountain Opry is music. < grin > No matter how we express it and the quality of general acceptance it is still music. How is it that when music has a small loyal following its great, as long as you approve of it. Then if it becomes successfull and openly enjoyed it is sold out hash. I was just wondering. I beleave that any sound created with the intent of expression is art and music in the truest sence whether I enjoy it or not. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:44:51 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply Hello techno fans and foes, I picked this thread only lately (since, when it started, the whole thing "chord progressions" didn't interest me -- time for a subject change maybe?). But the recent excerpting of RAM's message (sorry, full was not reproduced) and Courtney and Michael's reply got me thinking. Courtney said: > If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country > - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't > understand it. Sure. But in order to have a meaningful discussion about the relative merits of a form of music, participants in the discussion must agree that it _is_ music. Unless and until you are able to persuade everyone present that it is, the discussion will, at least in part, dissolve into an argument about what consititutes music (with reference to the style under contention), rather than about the style _as_ music. We have seen this sort of thing in this forum before. (The old timers like me will recall many occasions!) Of course, it needn't be a flamefest, but we have seen a couple recently. I'd much prefer a lucid exchange. :-) Note that what I have said is a general observation and is in no way a judgment of techno or Mountain Opry or anything else. Regards David Rodger |Home Page: http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger Music Department |================================================= School of Art and Media | "As musicologists well know, it is pointless to La Trobe University |object to compositions such as Morton Subotnick's Bundoora 3083 |The Wild Bull on the grounds that the sounds come Australia | out of a mechanical contrivance. What do you FAX +61-3-9479-3651 | think the sounds of an organ come out of?" musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au | -- Walter Ong, Orality and Literacy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:39:45 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: off? My messages don't seem to be making it to the list. If I am being censored for some reason ((I feel Metlay and I started off on the wrong foot, but I must maintain in my own defense that I was misunderstood on that occasion, and was not attacking or being disrespectful to the purpose or intent of this list at all)), then please remove me from your list. If not, then what do you guess may be happening? -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:41:34 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Paulo Mouat Subject: Re: stochastic is a fancy adjective for randomness Comments: To: brittont@rbdc.rbdc.com > Good lord!! Techno people clamoring for acceptance on my right, and > stachastic (any relation to spastic?) defining limits to create art > out of noisy-ness on my left... Where the heck am *I*??? On a list that happily deals with diverse threads such as those. > more how successful this group has been in generating music capable of > "influencing and reflecting the idealism of the potent young." Quite a > bit more of a success than anything John Cage (several erudites' god) > produced outside of the constraints of academia! > Right??? Success and capability are not the measures I use to guide my likes and dislikes. I... just like or dislike. > Defining constraints, though an important part of art, is not the art. Not what I said. Defining "good" constraints requires art, they're not art themselves. > All youth are not artists simply because they constrain themselves so > with coolness. All erudite are not artists simply because they > constrain themselves with "rules" for their games, so as to (as John > Cage put it) "stay out of the way of their music." As I said above, the constraints (meaning the limits you impose on your compositional process) are perhaps the single most important aspect of musical composition, be it by cultural heritage or conscious effort. If you compose in a certain way is because you make choices, and the best choice is the one that best represents the constraints you're using (tonal rules, techno-specific sounds/arrangements, whatever). > Anyone who says, "It's as finished as I'm wanting to make it at this > time--because I like it the way it is at this point, so it is > completed" is probably an artist. OK. "I composed this process, it translates to music this way. I'm happy with it. So it is finished." > Being an artist implies control over more than merely one's > constraints, but control over when the piece is released as completed > as well. Is that not a constraint too? > An artist takes total responsibility for the results unleashed upon > the public, Quite right. > and imposes his or her's own brand of "it may not be Art, but I know > what I like" upon us. ART ArT ARt aRT aRt arT Art art Precisely. I am not interested in delegating all responsibility on the process I composed. *I* composed the process with very definite intentions, and were it not successful in its translation to music, I would have abandoned it as quickly as an unfortunate motif for a fugue. Best! -- __|__ ___\_/___ ___ Paulo Mouat, |___| mouat@mail.telepac.pt |___| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:41:07 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Timothy Kelly Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? Hi All, Every style of music has its positive and negative. I like positive happy rap, some kinds of techno dance. I dont like the super heavy beat on your body, interfer with your heatbeat and brainwaves tunes, also dont care for the death and destruction rap just out there to make a buck. If you are a fan of something, then it benifits you in some way. Many think emusic and all synths are great doorstops, I dont. Many think techno, their dog could compose better. Even if you dont like techno, as a synth user it does result in hardware and software aimed at the techno/dance market, which one may find useful for emusic use. In that way any style of music can spin things into general use. Even Plato wrote a lot about how music can benifit or destroy a culture. Even if you own emusic never goes beyound friends and family, you can affect a large circle of people with your sounds. And with the net, one can get ones own emusic out around the globe. Is your own personal emusic benifiting the globe, is a good question to reflect on. Happy Emusic Timothy Kelly MidiVox -- MidiVox - Worlds 1st Voice to Midi. Real Time Hardware. BioSensor Neckband. Rack Mount Brain. Sing, Hum, Scat, Croon, Rap, Talk, Scream . AES Best in Show. EM's Editors Choice. Become a Human Sequencer & Human Vocoder. Can You Hum a Bass, Sing Like a Sax? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:14:55 -0600 Reply-To: skelly@iserv.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Subject: Re: Is techno a benefit to culture? MJ wrote: > > Young people staggering out of warehouses at 7 am doesn't scare anyone. > Your attaching waaaay too much importance to this type of medium. The only > music that scares or alarms people is music that contains the element of > the unknown. The one that comes to my mind (in our era) is rap. In the > sixties it was Jimi Hendrix. Prior to that it was Miles Davis. The media > and the white masses feared these (now) legends because there were no > precedents...nothing to fall back on...no safety nets--enter Malcolm X. > Rap has the same effect on people. I agree to what you say there...the unknown does tend to scare or alarm some people and yes Hendrix, Davis they are legends. I do love rap too. > Techno/rave on the other hand is much more cut and dry. You've basically > got a small faction of identity-challenged young white men wearing > monochrome colors with multiple ear/nose/tit/? rings taking odd drugs and > winding up late for school on Monday (GOING to school none-the-less). > There's very few of them and nine times out of ten, if you don't live in a > big city, you'll probably only see such a person on MTV or at a Salvation > Army store digging for "forgotten treasures." Parents aren't threatened > and the media couldn't really give a damn because the techno/rave crowd is > no more dangerous than the Beatles fans of the sixties; though I doubt > they were taking ECSTACY. First of all, I live in Grand Rapids, MI not the biggest city but pretty diverse...and right now we don't have MTV unless you have a 'dish'. But around here parent's still feel threatened because of the media talking about places in California or Florida and telling us to watch out and be careful with our kids. media is kinda of shitty sometimes From what I have seen and heard it seems that Techno/rave is not just identiy-challenged young white men wearing weird clothes and taking drugs...but much more diverse/global I myself do not fit that sterotype..I am a young white male but I don't use drugs or drink or smoke or wear weird clothes but I LOVE the music and the scence. steve ever onward ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:29:22 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Robby D Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? I've tried to send signoff messages, it hasn't worked, please remove me from the list At 09:41 AM 1/26/97 -0800, you wrote: >Hi All, > Every style of music has its positive and negative. I like positive >happy rap, some kinds of techno dance. I dont like the super heavy beat >on your body, interfer with your heatbeat and brainwaves tunes, also >dont care for the death and destruction rap just out there to make a >buck. > If you are a fan of something, then it benifits you in some way. >Many think emusic and all synths are great doorstops, I dont. Many >think techno, their dog could compose better. Even if you dont like >techno, as a synth user it does result in hardware and software aimed >at the techno/dance market, which one may find useful for emusic use. > In that way any style of music can spin things into general use. >Even Plato wrote a lot about how music can benifit or destroy a >culture. Even if you own emusic never goes beyound friends and family, >you can affect a large circle of people with your sounds. And with the >net, one can get ones own emusic out around the globe. > Is your own personal emusic benifiting the globe, is a good question >to reflect on. > Happy Emusic > Timothy Kelly > MidiVox >-- >MidiVox - Worlds 1st Voice to Midi. Real Time Hardware. >BioSensor Neckband. Rack Mount Brain. > >Sing, Hum, Scat, Croon, Rap, Talk, Scream . AES Best in Show. >EM's Editors Choice. > >Become a Human Sequencer & Human Vocoder. Can You Hum a Bass, >Sing Like a Sax? > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:13:31 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is techno a benefit to culture? >Is techno a benefit to culture?... At the very least, it's bringing technology-based bands onto the stage to do their stuff live, and I think that's something which electronic music has been in need of for a couple of decades. Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:13:41 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply >While some Techno/Tekno/Dance music can be a shimmering delight some dirges >drone on to a mindless hypnotic, pointless stupor and probably reach it's >intended audience squarely where they perceive that society has placed >them. True of any art form, I think you'll find. Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:20:35 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Tim Thompson Subject: Web Tones > The E-MUSIC list is valuable, guys. For instance, Paulo could use it as an > unexhaustible, never repeating input stream to generate/compose > stochastic pieces. Or you could use the contents of anything on the web. I've created another web-based algorithmic music toy, which lets you specify a URL, control a few parameters, and generate MIDI output. It reads whatever the URL contains - even if it's something like a GIF or MIDI file. I call it "Web Tones", you can check it out at ...Tim...tjt@nosuch.com... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: off? In-Reply-To: <32EAC3F1.69C@mail.rbdc.com> from "Terry Leigh Britton" at Jan 25, 97 09:39:45 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > My messages don't seem to be making it to the list. If I am being > censored for some reason ((I feel Metlay and I started off on the wrong > foot, but I must maintain in my own defense that I was misunderstood on > that occasion, and was not attacking or being disrespectful to the > purpose or intent of this list at all)), then please remove me from your > list. If not, then what do you guess may be happening? Terry, they're making it fine. It's just that LISTSERV defaults to not sending your messages back to you (figuring you've already read them, I suppose). It's possible to change that default - write me direct at mcmahon@clark.net and we'll try to fix it up. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:57:00 -600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Steve Corns (Music Survey)" Subject: UNT Musician Health Survey MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT The University of North Texas is currently conducting a survey of musicians' health and performance-related problems. This survey is located on the Web at the following URL: http://www.scs.unt.edu/surveys/msurvey/index.html All musicians please participate. Thank you for your time. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:25:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? In-Reply-To: <199701261741.JAA15237@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> from "Timothy Kelly" at Jan 26, 97 09:41:07 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Many think emusic and all synths are great doorstops, I dont. Many > think techno, their dog could compose better. "Woof!" doo doo doot doot doo doo doot "Woof!" doo doo doot doot doo doo doot "Woof!" doo doo doot doot doo doo doot I think you've got something there. :) --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:30:06 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? In-Reply-To: <199701262029.MAA26211@patty.loop.net> from "Robby D" at Jan 26, 97 12:29:22 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > I've tried to send signoff messages, it hasn't worked, please remove me from > the list Done. You should be off by the end of today. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:21:29 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Randy Meeker Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain :Is Techno a benefit to culture? Of course it is! Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call earth. If I offended anyone with my recent opinion - get over it. It was notmy intention to incite flame mail. I did receive some very interesting mail from some very well spoken individuals which were posted and available to all. Thank You! It was fun, but as my mother always told us "Play nice kiddies" Have an interesting week -RAM ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:51:06 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: William B Fox Subject: EMUSIC Playlist Playlist for "EMUSIC" on WDIY-FM, Allentown 88.1 FM in Allentown/Bethleham and 93.9 FM in Easton/Phillipsburg Show #1 January 23, 1997 Host: Bill Fox ARTIST TRACK ALBUM (label) ----------------------- ----------------------- ------------------------------- 11:00 pm Robert Rich Live Concert (*) Unreleased DAT 12:00 am Robert Rich Live Concert (*) Unreleased DAT Ron Boots Floating Thoughts Screaming Whispers (Cue) Paul Haslinger Le Sens Du Sens World Without Rules (RGB) Steve Roach BetweenTheGray&thePurpleThe Magnificent Void (Fathom) 1:00 am Sign off (*) This concert took place at the Open Space Gallery in Allentown, Pennsylvania on October 18, 1996, just prior to the Sleep Concert that Robert performed from 1 am to 6 am on WDIY's first and so far only over night broadcast. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:20:45 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Yvan Vander Sanden Subject: The techno discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> So when did you become an authority on what is creative and expressive? Did >> you tap into the minds of techno and rap artists? No one knows what is >> creative and expressive except the artist who created the work. Its obvious >> you dont even know what the music is, as you don't see it as enlightening. >> If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country >> - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't >> understand it. Perhaps you should look back as few as 5-10 years ago when >> any form of electronic music was not considered "real" music or art by most. >> >> I suggest that you read the last paragraph you wrote... and stop deciding >> what you feel is creative and what is not. Open your eyes - Refusal to >> accept forms of art, whether you like them or not, is completely backwards. >> >> -C >> ________________________________________ >> Courtney Nielsen >> Electronic Artists Collective >> (408) 275-9972 >> cnielsen@earthlink.net >> ________________________________________ > >I would like to say Bravo to my friend Courtney for his typical but well >placed responce. Music is or should be an act of creative expression. >I must insist that even Mountain Opry is music. < grin > No matter how >we express it and the quality of general acceptance it is still music. >How is it that when music has a small loyal following its great, as long >as you approve of it. Then if it becomes successfull and openly enjoyed >it is sold out hash. I was just wondering. I beleave that any sound >created with the intent of expression is art and music in the truest >sence whether I enjoy it or not. > > I've grown a bit tired of people saying that every individual is different and that there can not be said what is good of bad music. This is the way the media wants us to think. If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that they can make a reflection on the music they hear. If you study classical composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives remarks on the compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, but he knows a lot more about technical aspects, things that work, things that don't work... He can tell you, although you're not immitating his personal style, what is a good piece and what is worthless. But most important: he can tell you WHY he say's so! The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a start. A good structure and making your message clear to the audience are also very important. Let's take a look at poetry: To The Accuser who is The God of This World Truly, My Satan, thou art but a Dunce, And dost not know the Garment from the Man. Every Harlot was a Virgin once, Nor canst thou ever change Kate into Nan. Tho'thou art Worship'd by the Names Divine Of Jesus & Jehovah, thou art still The Son of Morn in weary Night's decline, The lost Traveller's Dream under the Hill. this is a poem by William Blake. Suppose he would have written: Hey, God! You can do nothing and you know nothing either! Although the idea is the same, no one will disagree when I say the first poem is a lot better. Some of you may even say the second one is NOT art (and I agree). If we say this about poetry, no one will take offence. When we talk about music, some of you will say that everyone is different and that I don't have the right to decide what's good or bad. But poetry is just poetry. Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. People can't live with the fact that the music they listen to is bad because what you are really saying is: a part of your way of living is wrong. And they have no alternative because their social group is listening to that same kind of music. Suppose you know one a poem that you read every morning. It has become very important to you. If a very well-known proffesor in languages tells you (with a lot of reasonble arguments of course) what is wrong with this poem, you won't agree. In this case, that poem has become part of your life. This professor may say anything he wants about other poems, but not about this one. Every style of music has is good and bad compositions. There are classical pieces that are NOT good. Even some music by Mozart is not very good. (Although he has written some superb music!) I think he wouldn't deny this himself. Some of his music is written in a few days, just to earn money. For these pieces, he did not have the intention to write good music, he was just in need of cash. When I listen to most of the techno music, I can easily think of some things that would have made the music better. I'm not referring to taste, just technical elements. The reason why these 'composers' have not thought about it themselves is because they did not take the time to make their music REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. I have made techno once, for a special occassion. It was written for a party organised by my friends. Every one thought the piece wat great. They told me I should make more of this stuff. I knew in front that they would love it, because I've studied compostition and I've learned what people like immediatly and what is more difficult to understand. I'm not saying this is art because I can do much better than that. I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of the same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone who knows something about making music, will say the second piece has more to do with art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. Some people will argue: 'but I need a lot of time to make this music, I can't make anything else and I only like techno'. Well, here are some suggestions. 1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. 2. If you do not want to do this: Don't say you're making art. greetings, Yvan Vander Sanden Technology in Music Education: Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven Oude markt 31 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel. 0032/16/232819 E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:47:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply Comments: To: Jeff_Fried@dgii.com Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU wrote: > > I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: > > Who owns the copyright?? > > Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a > work for hire situation, I would assume that > all the participants share the copyright of > the "performance", and that whoever wrote the > tune had the author rights to the song. If it > was "written" by more than one person, > wouldn't they share the rights? > > Your right, though, copyright and the net is > a very murky field right now. > -Peter Whoever is the author of the song or composition owns the copyright. Should the performance generate income, the copyright holder and publisher must be paid performance royalties. Should the performance be recorded and the recording generates income, the author (copyright owner) and publisher split mechanical rights ($0.057 per tune--there is a higher time based rate for tunes > 7 minutes, I don't recall what it is). If the performance is a group improvisation, then I suppose all the participants are the authors and share the copyright. However, should that improvisation be based on a pre-existing tune, then performance royalities etc must be paid to the original copyright owner regardless of how much the improv changes the tune. -- Jeff. Just curious how this works out for recordings of music that are in the public domain. Copyright still is an issue there, but since the author doesn't get anything, do all the royalties and rights belong to the publisher, or does the performer have rights wich they may choose to sign away? -Peter ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 06:50:18 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Is techno a benefit to culture? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nick Rothwell wrote: > At the very least, it's bringing technology-based bands onto the stage to > do their stuff live, and I think that's something which electronic music > has been in need of for a couple of decades. Hmm. Last night on a public radio station, there was a fellow (admittedly, _not_ a techno/dance music fan) reviewing The Big Day Out, a very big single-day festival (of-sorts). In passing he mentioned The Prodigy: one guy on a keyboard and four guys dancing. He said that he suspected the reason that there were four guys dancing (presumably one of them was the barking Keith) was because a keyboard player by himself would have been rather boring. Still, I suppose in these days of MIDI and remote control, even Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson would look boring. ;-) Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:54:54 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply In-Reply-To: <01IENZAAI2KY91W0GD@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII after reading numerous sides to this bit, i would ask the amount of techno everyone has heard. techno began with an electric side to club music and as most pop music from the 80's, it was simple. give people credit in always inovating a new thing. with in "techo", there is ambient, sombient, illbient, trip-hop, dub, deep and hard house, house, trance, breakbeat, jungle, and drum and bass, with not very cleAr lines defining each. plus any can be combined. the days of drug stupors are gone. the last scene here on the east coast is the illbient/sombient thing coming out of NYC. instead of an all nite party, this is presented in a well lit gallery from 11AM to 6PM, and seating is provided. yr meant to sit and listen.check out dj spooky. its not just for kids anymore. corey On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, David Rodger wrote: > Hello techno fans and foes, > I picked this thread only lately (since, when it started, the whole thing > "chord progressions" didn't interest me -- time for a subject change maybe?). > But the recent excerpting of RAM's message (sorry, full was not reproduced) > and Courtney and Michael's reply got me thinking. > > Courtney said: > > If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country > > - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't > > understand it. > > Sure. But in order to have a meaningful discussion about the relative > merits of a form of music, participants in the discussion must agree that > it _is_ music. Unless and until you are able to persuade everyone present > that it is, the discussion will, at least in part, dissolve into an > argument about what consititutes music (with reference to the style > under contention), rather than about the style _as_ music. We have seen > this sort of thing in this forum before. (The old timers like me will > recall many occasions!) Of course, it needn't be a flamefest, but we > have seen a couple recently. I'd much prefer a lucid exchange. :-) > > Note that what I have said is a general observation and is in no way > a judgment of techno or Mountain Opry or anything else. > > Regards > David Rodger |Home Page: http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger > Music Department |================================================= > School of Art and Media | "As musicologists well know, it is pointless to > La Trobe University |object to compositions such as Morton Subotnick's > Bundoora 3083 |The Wild Bull on the grounds that the sounds come > Australia | out of a mechanical contrivance. What do you > FAX +61-3-9479-3651 | think the sounds of an organ come out of?" > musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au | -- Walter Ong, Orality and Literacy > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:01:49 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? In-Reply-To: <199701261741.JAA15237@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the continous rap references are interesting. personally, i am surrounded by some of the most amazing lyricism ive ever known to exist. its always been said that the human voice is one f the most diverse instruments. whats going on now is the flow in and out of rhythms, and the integration of rhythms thats never been done before or that could so easily be done on any instrument. all this and it delivers a personal message. corey On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Timothy Kelly wrote: > Hi All, > Every style of music has its positive and negative. I like positive > happy rap, some kinds of techno dance. I dont like the super heavy beat > on your body, interfer with your heatbeat and brainwaves tunes, also > dont care for the death and destruction rap just out there to make a > buck. > If you are a fan of something, then it benifits you in some way. > Many think emusic and all synths are great doorstops, I dont. Many > think techno, their dog could compose better. Even if you dont like > techno, as a synth user it does result in hardware and software aimed > at the techno/dance market, which one may find useful for emusic use. > In that way any style of music can spin things into general use. > Even Plato wrote a lot about how music can benifit or destroy a > culture. Even if you own emusic never goes beyound friends and family, > you can affect a large circle of people with your sounds. And with the > net, one can get ones own emusic out around the globe. > Is your own personal emusic benifiting the globe, is a good question > to reflect on. > Happy Emusic > Timothy Kelly > MidiVox > -- > MidiVox - Worlds 1st Voice to Midi. Real Time Hardware. > BioSensor Neckband. Rack Mount Brain. > > Sing, Hum, Scat, Croon, Rap, Talk, Scream . AES Best in Show. > EM's Editors Choice. > > Become a Human Sequencer & Human Vocoder. Can You Hum a Bass, > Sing Like a Sax? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:29:30 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recently subscribed for this discussion list and already a very interesting question is asked. There are two different parts to discuss about: Techno as a music style, and techno in it's social context (which includes the use of drugs). I don't know enough about the techno scene to answer the second question, but I can help for the first part. The past two years, I have been trying to find a definition for Art, together with some fellow students who appreciate Art and philosophy - like me. Since I'm a composer too, I mostly study which music is art and which is not. And finally I usually go out to places where techno (and variants like jungle, drum 'n bass, dub, trip hop,...) are played. As with all new art styles, people have to get used to techno before they can like it. And most people will probably never adapt. Techno is still relatively young and evolving quite fast. It is "growing up". Of course, there's a lot of crap in the techno-scene, but there was a lot of bad classic music too, it just never made it to our century. Only by studying lots of different techno compositions, you can learn to judge wether something is good or bad. At the other hand, techno is dance music, which means that most bands don't try to be renovating, original, arty,... but try to make music on which people can dance well. As Randy Meeker wrote: > Is Techno a benefit to culture? > Of course it is! > Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call > earth. If you compare techno with other art styles, you'll see that history repeats itself. Please excuse my bad English. Mathias Verraes Belgium eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:53:28 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Yvan Vander Sanden Subject: Re: off? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Terry, they're making it fine. It's just that LISTSERV defaults to not sending >your messages back to you (figuring you've already read them, I suppose). It's >possible to change that default - write me direct at mcmahon@clark.net and >we'll try to fix it up. > > --- Joe M. > > Ah! Sorry to you all who have probaly received my message twice. I too did not know I would not receive my own message again. It's a different system than the other servers are using. Since i've just posted my first message, you might have got it twice. Excuse me... (I've should have read this first :( greetings, Yvan Vander Sanden Technology in Music Education: Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven Oude markt 31 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel. 0032/16/232819 E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:51:18 -0800 Reply-To: jefff@dgii.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jeff Fried Organization: digi international Subject: Re: Virtual vs. IRT -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU wrote: > > Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU wrote: > > > > I know everybody's going to scream at me, but: > > > > Who owns the copyright?? > > > > Since it doesn't sound like any of this is a > > work for hire situation, I would assume that > > all the participants share the copyright of > > the "performance", and that whoever wrote the > > tune had the author rights to the song. If it > > was "written" by more than one person, > > wouldn't they share the rights? > > > > Your right, though, copyright and the net is > > a very murky field right now. > > -Peter > > Whoever is the author of the song or composition owns the copyright. > Should the performance generate income, the copyright holder and > publisher must be paid performance royalties. Should the performance be > recorded and the recording generates income, the author (copyright > owner) and publisher split mechanical rights ($0.057 per tune--there is > a higher time based rate for tunes > 7 minutes, I don't recall what it > is). > > If the performance is a group improvisation, then I suppose all the > participants are the authors and share the copyright. However, should > that improvisation be based on a pre-existing tune, then performance > royalities etc must be paid to the original copyright owner regardless > of how much the improv changes the tune. > > -- Jeff. > > Just curious how this works out for recordings of music that are in > the public domain. Copyright still is an issue there, but since the > author doesn't get anything, do all the royalties and rights belong to > the publisher, or does the performer have rights wich they may choose > to sign away? > -Peter My guess, and this is just a guess mind you, is that no mechanical rights/royalties exist (mechanicals = royalties and rights conferred on the author and publisher as per the copyright law) and that all revenues are split among the creators and distributers of the recording according to the contract governing the recording. -- Jeff. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:15:14 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MJ Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Same here...please remove me from the list; I've read better conversations on outhouse doors. MJ ---------- > From: Joe McMahon > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? > Date: Monday, January 27, 1997 9:30 AM > > > > > I've tried to send signoff messages, it hasn't worked, please remove me from > > the list > > Done. You should be off by the end of today. > > --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:59:35 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: pc's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII anyoe dealing with sequencing on pc's- do you know how to transfer samples from one program to another without saving? i am recording on cakewalk, to save a little space, but i can't figure how to transfer samples to sound forge. when i save it, it of course saves the whole sequence. the clipboard doesnt seem to do it. any suggestions? corey ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:14:44 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MJ Subject: On Rap... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The sometimes raunchy and violent side of rap music notwithstanding, this is a form of music unlike any other that has ever existed. The talent required to make a rhyme flow (and not sound contrived i.e. ON THE ONE like the Sugar Hill Gang) is truly amazing. Not to mention the talent possessed by those who produce this medium. It may sound like it would be easy to put together, but let's face it folks, Michael Jordan makes basketball look like "fun." That's the beauty of the art form, though at face value it appears to be rudimentary in composition, it is in contrast a VERY syncopated, groove-reliant form of expression that only those with incredible ears and sense of rhythm are capable of generating. Ever picked up the manual for an ASR-10? If anyone out there has mastered the art of sampling like some of these young producers, I applaude you. MJ ---------- > From: Corey H Maass > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: Chord progressions--Is Techno a benefit to culture? > Date: Monday, January 27, 1997 3:01 PM > > the continous rap references are interesting. personally, i am surrounded > by some of the most amazing lyricism ive ever known to exist. its always > been said that the human voice is one f the most diverse instruments. > whats going on now is the flow in and out of rhythms, and the integration > of rhythms thats never been done before or that could so easily be done on > any instrument. all this and it delivers a personal message. > > corey > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Timothy Kelly wrote: > > > Hi All, > > Every style of music has its positive and negative. I like positive > > happy rap, some kinds of techno dance. I dont like the super heavy beat > > on your body, interfer with your heatbeat and brainwaves tunes, also > > dont care for the death and destruction rap just out there to make a > > buck. > > If you are a fan of something, then it benifits you in some way. > > Many think emusic and all synths are great doorstops, I dont. Many > > think techno, their dog could compose better. Even if you dont like > > techno, as a synth user it does result in hardware and software aimed > > at the techno/dance market, which one may find useful for emusic use. > > In that way any style of music can spin things into general use. > > Even Plato wrote a lot about how music can benifit or destroy a > > culture. Even if you own emusic never goes beyound friends and family, > > you can affect a large circle of people with your sounds. And with the > > net, one can get ones own emusic out around the globe. > > Is your own personal emusic benifiting the globe, is a good question > > to reflect on. > > Happy Emusic > > Timothy Kelly > > MidiVox > > -- > > MidiVox - Worlds 1st Voice to Midi. Real Time Hardware. > > BioSensor Neckband. Rack Mount Brain. > > > > Sing, Hum, Scat, Croon, Rap, Talk, Scream . AES Best in Show. > > EM's Editors Choice. > > > > Become a Human Sequencer & Human Vocoder. Can You Hum a Bass, > > Sing Like a Sax? > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:38:27 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Will Moore Subject: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Damn! I swore to myself I'd stay outta this.... > From: Yvan Vander Sanden >If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that >they can make a reflection on the music they hear. If you study >classical composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives >remarks on the compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, >but he knows a lot more about technical aspects, things that work, >things that don't work... I assume you can recall a story or two about a number of music scholars who didn't quite agree with Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" while they were throwing chairs and bottles at him. I'm sure a number of those same people said similar (although were mere polite about it) things about Stockhausen and Cage only a few years later whom I assume (danger will robinson!) you enjoy. Them smart people sure is stupid sometimes. >The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a >start. A good structure and making your message clear to the audience >are also very important. I'm going to put my hat, checkbook and a dog biscuit in a pot. An original, clear and structured idea. ergo! Art! (I'm being pissy, I know) > The reason why these 'composers' > have not thought about it themselves is because they did not take > the time to make their music REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. Ok, love the Blake bit but "they wanted to earn money"? Huh? How many techno artists have you seen on Billboard lately? >But poetry is just poetry. Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. I'll send you 5 bucks if you post that on a poetry list, with your email address. I'm not kidding! >I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of >the same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone >who knows something about making music, will say the second piece has >more to do with art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. And I can write a simple fugue in c that my mother and her friends will enjoy in the same hour. Who cares? So you can write a EuroPop techno song in an hour. Actually, I think my mother could do that. How about an Orb song? Or maybe an Aphex Twin song? Is that all the same to you? Do you write music to make *art* or do you write music to write music? I'm happy you gave a few nice people a good time. Next time, why not impress them with your mastery of Rondo form. >1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. >2. If you do not want to do this: > Don't say you're making art. If that's all some one can do and that's all they want to do, great. Enjoy yourself. Call it art. Call it a truck. Call it a damn hamburger. Call it whatever you want, you wrote it. Just don't ask Yvan to call it art. Fair? Yvan, I'm afraid you're missing the point. Well, you're missing my point anyway. 'What is art' has got to be one of the most ridiculous questions I've ever seen some one try to answer. If classical music (loose term) is art through all of the beauty of it's complexity does that mean Muddy Waters sucked? Only three chords?! I-IV-V? Diatonic rubbish! Egads! You sir, are art. Will ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Millard Subject: Re: The techno discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yvan Vander Sanden wrote: > > >> So when did you become an authority on what is creative and expressive? Did > >> you tap into the minds of techno and rap artists? No one knows what is > >> creative and expressive except the artist who created the work. Its obvious > >> you dont even know what the music is, as you don't see it as enlightening. > >> If you don't understand a form of music, be it techno or hip-hop or country > >> - it'd not disqualified as a type of music, it just means you don't > >> understand it. Perhaps you should look back as few as 5-10 years ago when > >> any form of electronic music was not considered "real" music or art by most. > >> > >> I suggest that you read the last paragraph you wrote... and stop deciding > >> what you feel is creative and what is not. Open your eyes - Refusal to > >> accept forms of art, whether you like them or not, is completely backwards. > >> > >> -C > >> ________________________________________ > >> Courtney Nielsen > >> Electronic Artists Collective > >> (408) 275-9972 > >> cnielsen@earthlink.net > >> ________________________________________ > > > >I would like to say Bravo to my friend Courtney for his typical but well > >placed responce. Music is or should be an act of creative expression. > >I must insist that even Mountain Opry is music. < grin > No matter how > >we express it and the quality of general acceptance it is still music. > >How is it that when music has a small loyal following its great, as long > >as you approve of it. Then if it becomes successfull and openly enjoyed > >it is sold out hash. I was just wondering. I beleave that any sound > >created with the intent of expression is art and music in the truest > >sence whether I enjoy it or not. > > > > > I've grown a bit tired of people saying that every individual is different > and that there can not be said what is good of bad music. This is the way > the media wants us to think. > If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that they > can make a reflection on the music they hear. If you study classical > composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives remarks on the > compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, but he knows a lot > more about technical aspects, things that work, things that don't work... > He can tell you, although you're not immitating his personal style, what is > a good piece and what is worthless. But most important: he can tell you WHY > he say's so! > The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a start. A > good structure and making your message clear to the audience are also very > important. > Let's take a look at poetry: > > To The Accuser who is > The God of This World > > Truly, My Satan, thou art but a Dunce, > And dost not know the Garment from the Man. > Every Harlot was a Virgin once, > Nor canst thou ever change Kate into Nan. > > Tho'thou art Worship'd by the Names Divine > Of Jesus & Jehovah, thou art still > The Son of Morn in weary Night's decline, > The lost Traveller's Dream under the Hill. > > this is a poem by William Blake. Suppose he would have written: > > Hey, God! > You can do nothing > and you know nothing either! > > Although the idea is the same, no one will disagree when I say the first > poem is a lot better. Some of you may even say the second one is NOT art > (and I agree). > If we say this about poetry, no one will take offence. When we talk about > music, some of you will say that everyone is different and that I don't have > the right to decide what's good or bad. > > But poetry is just poetry. Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. People > can't live with the fact that the music they listen to is bad because what > you are really saying is: a part of your way of living is wrong. And they > have no alternative because their social group is listening to that same > kind of music. > > Suppose you know one a poem that you read every morning. It has become very > important to you. If a very well-known proffesor in languages tells you > (with a lot of reasonble arguments of course) what is wrong with this poem, > you won't agree. In this case, that poem has become part of your life. This > professor may say anything he wants about other poems, but not about this one. > > Every style of music has is good and bad compositions. There are classical > pieces that are NOT good. Even some music by Mozart is not very good. > (Although he has written some superb music!) I think he wouldn't deny this > himself. Some of his music is written in a few days, just to earn money. For > these pieces, he did not have the intention to write good music, he was just > in need of cash. > > When I listen to most of the techno music, I can easily think of some things > that would have made the music better. I'm not referring to taste, just > technical elements. The reason why these 'composers' have not thought about > it themselves is because they did not take the time to make their music > REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. > > I have made techno once, for a special occassion. It was written for a party > organised by my friends. Every one thought the piece wat great. They told me > I should make more of this stuff. I knew in front that they would love it, > because I've studied compostition and I've learned what people like > immediatly and what is more difficult to understand. I'm not saying this is > art because I can do much better than that. > > I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of the > same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone who knows > something about making music, will say the second piece has more to do with > art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. > > Some people will argue: 'but I need a lot of time to make this music, I > can't make anything else and I only like techno'. Well, here are some > suggestions. > > 1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. > 2. If you do not want to do this: > Don't say you're making art. > greetings, > > Yvan Vander Sanden > Technology in Music Education: > Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven > Oude markt 31 > B-3000 Leuven > Belgium > Tel. 0032/16/232819 > E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be > > I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. > Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ Just in case it is overlooked, I for one never made a distinction nor will I between good or bad art or music. I don't like several types of music. I find much of it is in bad taiste or immature. This is my view and it only applies to me and my children. I will defend the rights of others to make bad music or good as long as they want to. Social and artistic moods change and someday we might say so and so was ahead of their time, maybe not. I am not an authority and I question whether anyone is. I don't think a degree is music truly allows an individual to determine what is god or bad because it is a personal view. I think degrees allow an individual to qualify and quantify music by catagory and how well music fits into such organized sets. This is not a determination in all cases of artistic merit. I am often amazed by social friends with music degrees because instead of learning to lilsten and understand they instead judge and dicard music on a judgemental scale in which many things don't fit. I must debate that not all students understand what education is. I think that it is a path that leaves you at the end realizing that there is so much more to learn. Where are the explorative musicians, many of which I don't even like. They activly persue the nontraditional. They are musicians and artists in a truest sence because they are always pushing their limits and art ever forward. If anyone thinks a degree allows you to make instant judgments on others in whatever catalog I think you missed something in the degree effort. It is most certain that experience and education build our views and give us the ability to make personal judgements and sometimes global ones. I get the empression that Mike and Joe, the entire Team Metlay for example attepts to push the bondaries. This is almost a given with many Electronic and Alternative musicians. I don't like some music and some art, I find the abussive and hate monger stuff to be very discusting but in most cases I still have to defend it as art. The point where I draw the line is when it is expressly harmfull or violent toward others. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Millard Subject: Re: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Will Moore wrote: > > Damn! I swore to myself I'd stay outta this.... > > > From: Yvan Vander Sanden > >If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that > >they can make a reflection on the music they hear. If you study > >classical composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives > >remarks on the compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, > >but he knows a lot more about technical aspects, things that work, > >things that don't work... > > I assume you can recall a story or two about a number of music > scholars who didn't quite agree with Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" > while they were throwing chairs and bottles at him. I'm sure a > number of those same people said similar (although were mere polite > about it) things about Stockhausen and Cage only a few years later > whom I assume (danger will robinson!) you enjoy. Them smart people > sure is stupid sometimes. > > >The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a > >start. A good structure and making your message clear to the audience > >are also very important. > > I'm going to put my hat, checkbook and a dog biscuit in a pot. > > An original, clear and structured idea. > > ergo! Art! (I'm being pissy, I know) > > > The reason why these 'composers' > > have not thought about it themselves is because they did not take > > the time to make their music REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. > > Ok, love the Blake bit but "they wanted to earn money"? > Huh? How many techno artists have you seen on > Billboard lately? > > >But poetry is just poetry. Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. > > I'll send you 5 bucks if you post that on a poetry list, with your > email address. I'm not kidding! > > >I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of > >the same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone > >who knows something about making music, will say the second piece has > >more to do with art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. > > And I can write a simple fugue in c that my mother and her friends will > enjoy in the same hour. Who cares? So you can write a EuroPop > techno song in an hour. Actually, I think my mother could do that. > How about an Orb song? Or maybe an Aphex Twin song? Is that > all the same to you? Do you write music to make *art* or do you > write music to write music? I'm happy you gave a few nice people > a good time. Next time, why not impress them with your mastery of > Rondo form. > > >1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. > >2. If you do not want to do this: > > Don't say you're making art. > > If that's all some one can do and that's all they want to do, great. > Enjoy yourself. Call it art. Call it a truck. Call it a damn hamburger. > Call it whatever you want, you wrote it. Just don't ask Yvan to call > it art. Fair? > > Yvan, I'm afraid you're missing the point. Well, you're missing my > point anyway. 'What is art' has got to be one of the most ridiculous > questions I've ever seen some one try to answer. If classical music > (loose term) is art through all of the beauty of it's complexity does > that mean Muddy Waters sucked? Only three chords?! I-IV-V? > Diatonic rubbish! Egads! > > You sir, are art. > > Will You know I have a very good friend who has a masters in composition. he is a concert level pianist and wonderful composer. He has been playing music from the age of 4. His view has always been that his scholastic efforts help refine his talent, not create it. If a degree alone gives a person some awsome right of passage from earth into the cosmic field of musical inspirations and perfection. Another person I know actually has his masters and he can reproduce the great composers with fluency. He has never finished a truly original piece in his life. If the degree makes the musician then where are they on the bill boards? I suppose its because the rest of us are idiots. I am sometimes very disturbed by the lunacy of individuals who get a degree and suddenly conclude that they have reached the edge and perfection. They stop persueing excellance and knowledge because they have it all. This is foolish and a mode of failure I think. Perhaps it is easier to say I am now a master of my craft than to take the tools you have and prove it. I often refer to Dr. Mike and this is why. He got his title and put it where it belonged. He uses his knowledge to create his art and life but not as a pitchfork against his peers. By the way as a simple note. If I ever met someone who went to the trouble of getting a degree in music that though Poetry was not a way of life nor as important socially as music I'd have to wonder where the hell they got the degree. Tell Dillon, or Longfellow, or any dozen of great poets and writers that. Where is music and creativity within humankind if we discount the words as expressions beyound text on paper. I read a great line once and it may or may not apply here." do the prusume the will of God to scan, the proper study of man is man" michael@voy.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:10:09 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Organization: Davenport College--Computer Center Subject: The Techno Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yvan Vander Sanden wrote: ..I've grown a bit tired of people saying that every individual is different... just one little comment on that phrase: I feel that every body is different. Of all the people I know, there are no two with the same likes and dislikes. ...Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. People can't live with the fact that the music they listen to is bad because what you are really saying is: a part of your way of living is wrong. And they have no alternative because their social group is listening to that same kind of music... This is somewhat true, but people do have a choice as to what kind of music they want to listen to. All of my friends in my social group listen to different kinds of music. ...Some people will argue: 'but I need a lot of time to make this music, I can't make anything else and I only like techno'. Well, here are some suggestions. 1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. 2. If you do not want to do this: Don't say you're making art... One comment: What a person creates is art to at least that person. I write poems, I consider that an art that I can create. Nobody else has to consider it as that, but it is art to me. -- Steven Kelly ever onward skelly@iserv.net http://www.iserv.net/~skelly ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:53:30 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: technocomment 1) the ways in which techno is differentiated have always mystified and amused me. all these subcategories of such a monolithic form. i really think it's done just so that the people who make the distinctions can pretend to take them seriously, so that when someone like me comes along they can be smugly righteous in their clannish knowledge of my obvious cluelessness. bleah. 2) personally, i think a fair amount of the music has merit. it gets dull, but i quite like big chunks of it in doses. some of the programming is clever, but actually i still think that the soul/rap axis has been the most inventive with machine subversion. 3) whether or not an utterance is expressive is not the sole domain of the artist. if communication does not occur, then art is not present, and the "artist" has failed. a simple "but i like it" does not qualify anything as art. nor should one seek to legitimate everything one likes with the overstretched mantle of "art". liking it is sufficient reason for producing it. 4) the thing i have against techno has nothing to do with its style or its context. what concerns me is the commodification of the value that i place on my artistic tools. i recently had a very unpleasant conversation with a young techno-composer whose sole concern seemed to be how much vintage gear he could squirel away, and how clever he was at ferreting the stuff out at pirate-low prices. i'm reasonably certain he uses each piece to make only sound, since that's the techno mentality... "you just gotta get the jx3yz25000!!! its res pop is the kewlest!!!" bleah. these devices have value because artists have invested them with it by the works they produce on them. one wants this or that because it is *useful*. to have this value (the desire for a particular tool) itself traded on as the principal commodity is the ferengi approach to art, and seems to me to miss the point. -------====< Entropy Eventually Wins >====--------- Eric Harnden (Ronin) (202)885-2746 ... harnden@physics.american.edu ---===< And I Like To Be On The Winning Side >===--- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jon Bennett Subject: arpeggiators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone suggest (if there is one) a rack mount, arpeggiator? Jon Bennett Netsurfer Inc. (404) 815-1050 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:55:20 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >:Is Techno a benefit to culture? >Of course it is! >Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call >earth. Not every experience is a benefit. Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:57:59 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Eric Harnden (Ronin)" Subject: everything old is new again i was thinking recently about the emusician's fetish for finding ever new sounds, motifs, jangly bits, etc. it occurred to me that we are too enmeshed in the postmodern sensibility, which is caught in a spiral of edgy over-inventivess, in which the demand for "freshness" requires both ever-finer-and-more-shallow distinctions among froms, and excesses of destructive force to push the evolving (or rather crashing) esthetic. this sensibility sees formal recapitulation as banal, homage as ripoff. all suggestion is sly. but need it be so? classical music was a sea of self-reference, and comfortably so. one of the few "nods" that i've heard in modern popular electronic music that wasn't explicitly either sarcastic or offhand is the use of a very pink floyd interval-tuned-oscillator lead in an FSOL composition. there it was, just being what it was. too rare these days. i keep saying that this form (emusic) has now been around long enough to have its idioms taken seriously. i think we need to review our art, and in a more "classical" eye. we've done quite a lot of the "horizontal search" - it's time to explore a little depth, without being afraid of redundancy. to do so will require concentration. it's really quite easy to fall into old patterns, to let the machines do your thinking for you. but even with the mosty limited palette, the most conventional sonic "gestures", i still think there's a lot of subtlety and meaning to be found. time to get to work, don't you think? -------====< Entropy Eventually Wins >====--------- Eric Harnden (Ronin) (202)885-2746 ... harnden@physics.american.edu ---===< And I Like To Be On The Winning Side >===--- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:53:16 -0600 Reply-To: spindle@mindless.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Sean Wolfe Subject: Re: The techno discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just want ot jump into this one. >I have made techno once, for a special occassion. It was written for a party >organised by my friends. Every one thought the piece wat great. They told me >I should make more of this stuff. I knew in front that they would love it, >because I've studied compostition and I've learned what people like >immediatly and what is more difficult to understand. I'm not saying this is >art because I can do much better than that. I've studied Composition for 7 years also. Through the school of Traditional music Theory. And I trew it all away. In the world of electronic music and experimentation, rules of compostion are just plain rude. And saying that you studied to make art is ridiculous too. Art doesn't come from education, It comes from the soul. This can be argued for days on another thread, but it's not nessessary. Defining art, is not really possible. It's so abstract. It means different things to different people. Studying music and understanding structured composition, makes for a great musical CAREER, but as far as art, Creativity and Soul comes into play. >I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of the >same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone who knows >something about making music, will say the second piece has more to do with >art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. Some things that may seem simple may have taken weeks or months to create, and Complex pieces can come out in a day. The length of time spent on a piece shouldn't show it's worth. Niether should it's complexity. Some less dense songs If found to have more worth than Dense, overworked songs. They tend to have more subtlties, and nuances. For example, you don't judge a painter by hom much paint he pust on the canvas, and you don't judge his painting on whether every bit of canvas is covered or just small areas of it. And Bygod, if any artist, in a sleepless fit of inspiration creates something in less than an hour, we shouldn't come down on him and say it isn't art. But at times , when I've composed, there becomes a point where after working on something for so long, it just begins to loose itself, and your fighting it more than letting it flow naturally. Usually a sign that the piece isn't working. I belive some of my best work was created in shorter periods of time than ones that I've worked on for months. And when You put a great period of time in you work. You begin to loose the inital vision you have during it's inception. So the longer it takes you the farther you steer away from your original idea. Just my viewpoint. -- / _ \ / O Spindle Productions, Inc. _/ \ Sean Wolfe / spindle@mindless.com Comming Soon ======== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:30:43 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DEVOTION Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Verraes wrote: > > The past two years, I have been trying to find a definition for Art, > together with some fellow students who appreciate Art and philosophy - like > me. Since I'm a composer too, I mostly study which music is art and which > is not. And finally I usually go out to places where techno (and variants > like jungle, drum 'n bass, dub, trip hop,...) are played. I get kind of angry when someone thinks that some form of art is MORE art than another. Like you do here. Nomatter what music, which type of paintings, which sort of lyrics etc. yopu do, you CANNOT tell which is more art than another. The perception of art is totally subjective and therefore : one artform is more APPRECIATED by some people than by other people. > As with all new art styles, people have to get used to techno before they > can like it. And most people will probably never adapt. Techno is still > relatively young and evolving quite fast. It is "growing up". Of course, > there's a lot of crap in the techno-scene, but there was a lot of bad > classic music too, it just never made it to our century. Only by studying > lots of different techno compositions, you can learn to judge wether > something is good or bad. Here we go again : you cannot judge whether it's bad or god. You can say if YOU like it or not. > At the other hand, techno is dance music, which means that most bands don't > try to be renovating, original, arty,... but try to make music on which > people can dance well. So, the more you express with you music, the more original you are the less you want people to dance to it? > If you compare techno with other art styles, you'll see that history > repeats itself. Explain please........ Not to offend you in any way, but I think this letter is a near perfect example of a "real" artist with the "anyone-can-do-that-shit-oomph-oomph-oomph-techno-crap"-attitude, that is really sick of the thought that techno earns money and makes people go happy but his (real art) stuff isn't. ;) -- Over 'n out! :] DEVOTION '97 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:27:36 -0800 Reply-To: cjohnson@sage.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "C. (\\/). Johnson" Organization: ca(\/)ekiso(\) productio(\)s Subject: Re: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That was a damn good return. I'm sure many artists who record techno (and any other style really) would thank you. It couldn't have been said much better. C. (\/). J. -- BM6 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:34:35 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: casual jamming in a paranoid internet environment Tim Thompsom writes: < (E.g. there would be a checkmark next to my directory entry, in the collaboration index, indicating whether "copyright is important" or not.) < Let me suggest another legal issue with the virtual jam. Jimmy, Spike and Kurt logon to "jamarama" late one night. Jimmy's plaintive, yet lyrical extemporized vocal "Ode to O.D." overtop of Spike's wah-wah bass moves Kurt to "end it all". Kurt fills his bass drum with nitro-glycerin and at the conclusion of the drum solo finishing the track ... [fade into courtroom scene] "James- listen carefully. Did you, or did you not instigate the untimely demise of ..." GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:06:51 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: NEC_CEELY@FLO.ORG Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? Is this descussion a benefit to culture??Not as far as I am concerned. Cheers RPC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:51:11 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Zenon M. Feszczak" Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion In-Reply-To: <32EE4F11.60A5@iserv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >One comment: What a person creates is art to at least that person. Not necessarily. As a contrary example, Tolstoy defined his own system of philosophical aesthetics. By his own judgement, all of his literary output, with the exception of perhaps two minor short stories, was not art, and basically worthless. That is to say, "War and Peace", "Anna Karenina", etc. On a musical note, creators are also often critical of their own work, judging certain pieces as successful art and others as failures (by whatever aesthetic standard to which they subscribe). In fact, this critical approach is essential to the _process_ of creation, in which one typically discards many more ideas than one implements. So one must necessarily use one's aesthetic values in creating art. A good artist is often his own harshest critic. Just to give a reality check to this discussion, note that there is no consensus on a definition of art, not in the arts, not in philosophy, not among the general public, and perhaps least of all among creators themselves. ("Art" here subsumes music, refers to creative art in general). Zenon M. Feszczak Philosophist ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:53:32 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: The techno discussion -Reply I would like to respond to some of Yvan Vander Sanden's comments on techno. Generally, I agree with most of his thoughts: .........................................thumbs up: Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. People can't live with the fact that the music they listen to is bad because what you are really saying is: a part of your way of living is wrong. ......................................... ........................................thumbs up: Every style of music has is good and bad compositions. ........................................ ......................................... One up, one done: I knew in front that they would love it, because I've studied compostition and I've learned what people like immediatly and what is more difficult to understand. .......................................... if you invite me to you're party, especially if your serving chips and dip, I ain't gonna start putting down your awkward attempts to do anything creative. If you're trying to teach yourself to knit by making a purple commode seat cover, I'll probably say, "It goes well with the lime green wall paper". ............................................One up, one done: I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of the same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. ........................................... < The amount of effort expended is truely irrelevant in measuring the worth and endurability of art. Even in the realm of science it's not an absolute measure of worth. Once there was this brilliant young mathematician named Galois, I think. Well, one day somebody dissed him, or he dissed the other guy, whatever, and they ended up agreeing to duel each other the next day to the death. Well, Galois, after reflecting on the situation, decided he better start writing down some of his thoughts, just in case. I think he stayed up all night. Then, you probably guessed it, he's too tired to properly fight. He loses the duel and his life. But, from his hastily scrawled notes new realms of mathematics have emerged which are still growing to this day. I would rather look at a Salvador Dali doodle than many pieces of art which were constructed at great personal effort and sacrifice. I would rather hear Mozart, Bach or Beethoven improvise than listen to ANY of their notated masterpieces. From what I've read, many people around in that time period felt the same way, and said (in so many words) that the written out pieces paled in comparison with what they could do off the top of their heads on a good night. -rob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:52:00 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: Re: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. Comments: To: wmoore@POP.EROLS.COM I wonder what our Flemisfh friend thinks of the Dadaists? Great Art, IMHO, and I'll bet some of it took less than an hour to do. I wonder how long it did take to sign that urinal. I thought these battles were long over. Actually I've always thought the question "is it art?" one of the most useless questions that could be uttered. Of course its art, because the someone somewhere percieves it as art. I find it interesting that the Balinese language has NO WORD for art, because it is something that everyone does, and is hence not something that is intrinsically removed and/or ghetto-ized from everyday life. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:15:57 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jon Bennett Subject: Pattern based Sequencer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few weeks ago someone was asking about pattern based sequencers. If anyone came to any conclusions about what pattern based sequencers are out there; I would love to hear! Jon Bennett Netsurfer Inc. (404) 815-1050 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 10:21:26 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Mark D. Camp" Subject: Re: The techno discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" This message is the worst case of someone talking directly out of their ass that I have ever seen. First let me say, I'm usually a fairly open minded and giving person. But when someone who's .sig file says "technology in Music Education' and that he is a 'Music Educator' comes up with such narrow minded comments about art and music, it makes me want to fly to Belgium and kick this guy in the..... And it makes me wonder what he is teaching to his students. I've been lurking on this list for a while, a little intemidated by most of the 'music educator's' on this list. Some may remember my first post about if I was 'qualified' enough as an emusician to have the honor of subscribing to this list. Its not an honor. >I've grown a bit tired of people saying that every individual is different >and that there can not be said what is good of bad music. This is the way >the media wants us to think. You're saying that every individual is not different?? Belguim must be a prett boring place to live. >If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that they >can make a reflection on the music they hear. Why do you have to Study music to make a reflection on what you've heard? >If you study classical >composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives remarks on the >compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, but he knows a lot >more about technical aspects, things that work, things that don't work... Its all in the way that you are listening to the music. Some people listen to music for only the 'technical' aspects of it. Thats fine. But its is my oppinion that this takes away from the art form. When I listen to music, I listen for how it makes me feel, Thats the art I see in it. I'll agree that 'technical aspects' could be considered an artform, but I dont feel its very artistic. >He can tell you, although you're not immitating his personal style, what is >a good piece and what is worthless. But most important: he can tell you WHY >he say's so! Its an oppinion. >The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a start. A >good structure and making your message clear to the audience are also very >important. ok, I'll agree with that. >Let's take a look at poetry: > >To The Accuser who is >The God of This World > >Truly, My Satan, thou art but a Dunce, >And dost not know the Garment from the Man. >Every Harlot was a Virgin once, >Nor canst thou ever change Kate into Nan. > >Tho'thou art Worship'd by the Names Divine >Of Jesus & Jehovah, thou art still >The Son of Morn in weary Night's decline, >The lost Traveller's Dream under the Hill. > >this is a poem by William Blake. Suppose he would have written: > >Hey, God! >You can do nothing >and you know nothing either! > >Although the idea is the same, no one will disagree when I say the first >poem is a lot better. Some of you may even say the second one is NOT art >(and I agree). I disagree. I'm not saying the first version is better than the second, or vice versa. They both say the same thing. They are just saying them in a different way. Why is the second one not art? What makes it different than the first? They are both saying the same exact thing. Do you not see that?? It is a different way of expressing a thought or a feeling. Its the same as me walking up to you one day and saying "Good Day" and the next day saying "Hello, How are you." I'm greeting you, but in different ways. >If we say this about poetry, no one will take offence. When we talk about >music, some of you will say that everyone is different and that I don't have >the right to decide what's good or bad. You dont. > >But poetry is just poetry. Poetry is Art. And for some people poetry is part of their lives. Its what they live for. Just like we live for music. >Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. People >can't live with the fact that the music they listen to is bad because what >you are really saying is: a part of your way of living is wrong. And they >have no alternative because their social group is listening to that same >kind of music. I dont care if people say my music is bad. It just makes me try harder as an artist to improve my art. >Suppose you know one a poem that you read every morning. It has become very >important to you. If a very well-known proffesor in languages tells you >(with a lot of reasonble arguments of course) what is wrong with this poem, >you won't agree. In this case, that poem has become part of your life. This >professor may say anything he wants about other poems, but not about this >one. > >Every style of music has is good and bad compositions. There are classical >pieces that are NOT good. Even some music by Mozart is not very good. >(Although he has written some superb music!) I think he wouldn't deny this >himself. Some of his music is written in a few days, just to earn money. For >these pieces, he did not have the intention to write good music, he was just >in need of cash. > >When I listen to most of the techno music, I can easily think of some things >that would have made the music better. So can I. Thats what an artist does. >I'm not referring to taste, just >technical elements. The reason why these 'composers' have not thought about >it themselves is because they did not take the time to make their music >REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. Another narrow minded comment. This may be alittle different in Belgium, but here in the US, techno is still underground. Its a nameless, faceless buisness. The only Market for techno records is to the DJ's, and maybe some college radio stations. We can make more money working at McDonalds for Minimum wage then we can make releasing records. Why do you make music?? I make music because I like to, its fun. It gives me happiness. It makes me happy when someone listens to my music and smiles. Saying that the only reason why we 'composers' are making music is to make money, is the biggest piece of crap I have every heard. >I have made techno once, for a special occassion. It was written for a party >organised by my friends. Every one thought the piece wat great. They told me >I should make more of this stuff. I knew in front that they would love it, >because I've studied compostition and I've learned what people like >immediatly and what is more difficult to understand. I'm not saying this is >art because I can do much better than that. There is always room for improvement in an artform. I always feel I can do much better, that goes along with being an artists. If you want to accell in your art, you have to constantly challenge yourself. By the way, I've written my best tracks in a day or two. > >I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of the >same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone who knows >something about making music, will say the second piece has more to do with >art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. Why? Why is it not art? What is your deffinition of Art? > >Some people will argue: 'but I need a lot of time to make this music, I >can't make anything else and I only like techno'. Well, here are some >suggestions. > >1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. >2. If you do not want to do this: > Don't say you're making art. Art comes from feelings. From the Heart. No Professor or Scholor or Technology Music Educator can teach you anything about how to express your artform that you cant learn for yourself. Sometimes I feel like all these over educated musicians have lost all feeling in their music. Its all boiled down to formula and chord progressions. Thats bullshit. If it sounds good to you, go with it. Dont worry about if it techniclly works. That takes away from *your* artform, and makes it what others think *your* artform should be. I know you will dissagree with everthing I have said, just like I disagree with everything you have said. But hey, we're artists, we're supposed to be pompus assholes. Just make the music that you love. If there is a certain type of music you dont like and dont understand, thats fine. I dont like country or that Macarena song that went to number one for some strange reason, but I dont go telling people that is not art. If people want to line dance and ride mechanical bulls, thats fine, more power to 'em. It makes them happy and gives them peace. Just like Techno/House/D&B/Jungle/Ambient makes me happy and gives me peace. Its art to me, and thats all that matters. Peace, -M as my good friend Courtney says, "Just Make The Kick Drum Lounder!!" *______________*______________* !E.A.C! Astronout 408 SpaceLounge Electronic Artists Collective ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:59:03 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mathias Verraes wrote: > The past two years, I have been trying to find a definition for Art, > together with some fellow students who appreciate Art and philosophy - like > me. Since I'm a composer too, I mostly study which music is art and which > is not. So much has been written about this, from the Ancients to Walter Benjamin and beyond, don't go "re-inventing the wheel" (as they say). > As with all new art styles, people have to get used to techno before they > can like it. The automatic assumption that techno, as a new "thing", _is_ art seems to be somewhat at odds with the previous statement. You don't seem to have made a determination on whether it is or is not. Covering-my-rear-end-disclaimer: Note, I have _not_ said that techno is not art. In any case, once we start talking about what is or is not art, we have to consider what is good art and what is bad art since the art implies some elevated status among culture in general. Looking forward to the debate. David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:55:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Scott Purman Subject: Re: Pattern based Sequencer <> I'm not sure what you're looking for, but you should check out 'Upbeat' and 'M' and 'JamFactory' and 'MusicMouse'...I've got'em and they're all cool for different things...if you're not looking for *algo-comp* stuff, you might like 'Upbeat' best. Scott ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:10:04 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: mark simon Subject: Techno, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't have anything to say about Techno in particular, but I think I can state with some confidence that music in general is a benefit to society. It must be because every society on earth has it. Arguing about the merits of various genres of music must also be beneficial because everybody does it. In my view the only thing not beneficial is when someone says "well who are you to say what's good or bad". I say if you don't have an idea about what's good and bad in music you're not thinking hard enough. This is especially important if you're in the business of creating music. Presumably you want to create good music and not bad. How in heck are you going to do it if you don't have a clear idea in your own head about what it is that makes music good and what it is that makes music bad? I have a doctorate in composition. I confess it. This did not confer on me the right to pass judgement on music (I already had that), but it did give me the ability articulate to myself and others why I like certain music and dislike certain other music. This is important because, the more precisely you are able to define your ideas about good and bad, the better the likelihood that you'll be able to incorporate the good ideas into your own work and avoid the bad ideas. If I say Igor Stravinsky is great and Richard Strauss is a old windbag, that already is going to go a long way to define what music I'm going to write. If I say Stravinsky is great because incisive use of rhythm, his economy of gesture, his clarity of thought, his use of humor, then I've added a further refinement which is going to lead me to try to use incisive rhythms, economical gestures, clear thinking and humor. If I say his rhythm is incisive because of its asymmetry, unpredictability, and feeling of forward drive, then I'm getting even closer to where I want to be. If I make note of a particular rhythmic trick in meas. 235 of "Les Noces", then I'm beginning to arm myself with the kind of critical thinking that will lead me to write good music. For me the ideal is to see from the details to the big picture, and all the steps in between. I must say, though, that one of the things I learned by getting a doctorate in composition was to avoid writing anything that sounds anything remotely like what my professors wanted me to write. That being said I just want to add that my musical "Jennie's Will" was performed last weekend as part of the celebrations for the bicentennial of the town of Dryden, NY, that the cast of 10 performed superbly, the house was filled to capacity (ca. 160) both nights and received thunderous applause (in as much as 160 people can sound thunderous). I was one happy composer. It gets two more performances this weekend on the campus of Cornell University in Ithaca, NY. >Will Moore wrote: >> >> Damn! I swore to myself I'd stay outta this.... >> >> > From: Yvan Vander Sanden >> >If some people have studied music, it's normal (or it should be) that >> >they can make a reflection on the music they hear. If you study >> >classical composition, it's normal that your composition teacher gives >> >remarks on the compositions you make. O.K., you have your own style, >> >but he knows a lot more about technical aspects, things that work, >> >things that don't work... >> >> I assume you can recall a story or two about a number of music >> scholars who didn't quite agree with Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" >> while they were throwing chairs and bottles at him. I'm sure a >> number of those same people said similar (although were mere polite >> about it) things about Stockhausen and Cage only a few years later >> whom I assume (danger will robinson!) you enjoy. Them smart people >> sure is stupid sometimes. >> >> >The essence of art is not only an original thought, this is just a >> >start. A good structure and making your message clear to the audience >> >are also very important. >> >> I'm going to put my hat, checkbook and a dog biscuit in a pot. >> >> An original, clear and structured idea. >> >> ergo! Art! (I'm being pissy, I know) >> >> > The reason why these 'composers' >> > have not thought about it themselves is because they did not take >> > the time to make their music REALLY good. They wanted to earn money. >> >> Ok, love the Blake bit but "they wanted to earn money"? >> Huh? How many techno artists have you seen on >> Billboard lately? >> >> >But poetry is just poetry. Music, on contrary, is part of our lives. >> >> I'll send you 5 bucks if you post that on a poetry list, with your >> email address. I'm not kidding! >> >> >I can write this music in one hour. For a classical orchestral work of >> >the same length, I need at least one month to make a good one. Anyone >> >who knows something about making music, will say the second piece has >> >more to do with art. I say, the first one has NOTHING to do with art. >> >> And I can write a simple fugue in c that my mother and her friends will >> enjoy in the same hour. Who cares? So you can write a EuroPop >> techno song in an hour. Actually, I think my mother could do that. >> How about an Orb song? Or maybe an Aphex Twin song? Is that >> all the same to you? Do you write music to make *art* or do you >> write music to write music? I'm happy you gave a few nice people >> a good time. Next time, why not impress them with your mastery of >> Rondo form. >> >> >1. If this is all you can do, it's time to take lessons. >> >2. If you do not want to do this: >> > Don't say you're making art. >> >> If that's all some one can do and that's all they want to do, great. >> Enjoy yourself. Call it art. Call it a truck. Call it a damn hamburger. >> Call it whatever you want, you wrote it. Just don't ask Yvan to call >> it art. Fair? >> >> Yvan, I'm afraid you're missing the point. Well, you're missing my >> point anyway. 'What is art' has got to be one of the most ridiculous >> questions I've ever seen some one try to answer. If classical music >> (loose term) is art through all of the beauty of it's complexity does >> that mean Muddy Waters sucked? Only three chords?! I-IV-V? >> Diatonic rubbish! Egads! >> >> You sir, are art. >> >> Will > >You know I have a very good friend who has a >masters in composition. he is a concert level >pianist and wonderful composer. He has been >playing music from the age of 4. His view has >always been that his scholastic efforts help refine >his talent, not create it. If a degree alone gives >a person some awsome right of passage from earth >into the cosmic field of musical inspirations and >perfection. > >Another person I know actually has his masters and >he can reproduce the great composers with fluency. >He has never finished a truly original piece in his >life. > >If the degree makes the musician then where are >they on the bill boards? I suppose its because the >rest of us are idiots. I am sometimes very >disturbed by the lunacy of individuals who get a >degree and suddenly conclude that they have reached >the edge and perfection. They stop persueing >excellance and knowledge because they have it all. >This is foolish and a mode of failure I think. >Perhaps it is easier to say I am now a master of my >craft than to take the tools you have and prove it. >I often refer to Dr. Mike and this is why. He got >his title and put it where it belonged. He uses >his knowledge to create his art and life but not as >a pitchfork against his peers. >By the way as a simple note. If I ever met someone >who went to the trouble of getting a degree in >music that though Poetry was not a way of life nor >as important socially as music I'd have to wonder >where the hell they got the degree. Tell Dillon, >or Longfellow, or any dozen of great poets and >writers that. Where is music and creativity within >humankind if we discount the words as expressions >beyound text on paper. > >I read a great line once and it may or may not >apply here." do the prusume the will of God to >scan, the proper study of man is man" > > >michael@voy.net > ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ Mark G. Simon Music cataloger Central Tech. Services Cornell University Libraries mgs2@cornell.edu ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:01:21 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? In-Reply-To: from "Nick Rothwell" at Jan 28, 97 03:55:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Rothwell writes-- > >>:Is Techno a benefit to culture? >>Of course it is! >>Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call >>earth. > >Not every experience is a benefit. ...consider, for example, the recent Team Metlay sessions, on which a long technical post will be forthcoming as soon as I can think about them without developing a stomach-ache. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:03:06 -0600 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deckard Subject: Re: everything old is new again In-Reply-To: <199701281642.LAA05071@jericho.american.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Eric Harnden (Ronin) wrote: > (or rather crashing) esthetic. this sensibility sees formal > recapitulation as banal, homage as ripoff. all suggestion is sly. but > need it be so? classical music was a sea of self-reference, and > comfortably so. one of the few "nods" that i've heard in modern > popular electronic music that wasn't explicitly either sarcastic or > offhand is the use of a very pink floyd interval-tuned-oscillator > lead in an FSOL composition. there it was, just being what it was. > too rare these days. Interesting points you have here, but just out of curiosity, which FSOL song was it that you noticed this? Was it "Eggshell" (#7, disc 2) on Lifeforms? The melody always reminds me of a more optimistic "Welcome to the Machine." no@h . . . . . . ... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:26:26 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: everything old is new again -Reply As it is gets harder to aesthetically impress ourselves and each other through this medium of advancing technologies, it gets easier to kill, main and destroy one another. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:19:16 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: SINBYTE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. In a message dated 97-01-28 04:43:53 EST, you write: << You sir, are art. Will >> you, sir, are funny. p.s. that is not an insult. GABBA IS ART. GABBA OUT. SIN ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:24:34 -0800 Reply-To: skelly@iserv.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Subject: Ambient music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everybody, I'm looking for some good Ambient/house music...need some good names/cd titles to look for, thanks... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:16 -0800 Reply-To: jefff@dgii.com Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jeff Fried Organization: digi international Subject: Re: everything old is new again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deckard wrote: > > Interesting points you have here, but just out of curiosity, which > FSOL song was it that you noticed this? Was it "Eggshell" (#7, disc 2) on > Lifeforms? The melody always reminds me of a more optimistic "Welcome to > the Machine." > > no@h > . . . . . . ... Who is FSOL? Is it an acronym or the name of the band/artist? -- Thanks, -- Jeff. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:32:25 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Clive McFarland Subject: Techno vs Emusic vs Art Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From a review by Jon Casimir of Monday's Big Day Out, Sydney's best (and now sadly defunct) rock festival: "I saw the performance of the day and it came from the Prodigy, an English dance act on its second BDO showing....the Prodigy showed that while rock may not be dead, it is under serious threat on its traditional turf (agression, intensity, raw power) from the electronic sphere. The arrival of their latest single, the extraordinarily propulsive Breathe was greeted with something approaching mania from the crowd...(who)...exploded into bouncing, exuberant, humid life. None of the guitar-toting acts acheived the same adrenalin rush. My vote for second best went to another electro-act, the Aphex Twin, who re-wrote the rules of performance in the Boiler Room. Head and only twin (*I think the reviewer may have missed the subtlety of the name here*) Richard D James was invisible from the back....lying on the stage, his head bent over an array of oscillators, a sampler and a laptop computer (nothing recognisable to rock era folk as an "instrument"). Twiddling knobs and tweaking sounds being generated by his computer, James created a sound that was marked by both fury and sweetness, a constantly shifting musical terrain in which concepts of beat and melody were fluid...." Techno? Emusic? Art? Don't care. Anything that gets people involved in the creative potential of "an array of oscillators, a sampler and a laptop computer" gets my vote. Been too long coming. Regards Clive Clive McFarland CSIRO Australia clive@pelican.dbe.csiro.au ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: casual jamming in a paranoid internet environment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Robert M. Sanders wrote: > > Tim Thompsom writes: > < > (E.g. there would be a checkmark next to my directory entry, in the > collaboration index, indicating whether > "copyright is important" or not.) > < > > Let me suggest another legal issue with the virtual jam. > > Jimmy, Spike and Kurt logon to "jamarama" late one night. Jimmy's > plaintive, yet lyrical extemporized vocal "Ode to O.D." overtop of Spike's > wah-wah bass moves Kurt to "end it all". Kurt fills his bass drum with > nitro-glycerin and at the conclusion of the drum solo finishing the track ... > > [fade into courtroom scene] > > "James- listen carefully. > Did you, or did you not instigate the untimely > demise of ..." > > GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! Robert, you've got a definite point there. I'd like to respond to it appropriately, but I've run fresh out of nitro-glycerin and my drums are in the repair shop. (just kidding....) :) (thanks for worrying about me, though...) -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Corey H Maass wrote: > > after reading numerous sides to this bit, i would ask the amount of techno > everyone has heard. techno began with an electric side to club music and > as most pop music from the 80's, it was simple. give people credit in > always inovating a new thing. with in "techo", there is ambient, sombient, > illbient, trip-hop, dub, deep and hard house, house, trance, breakbeat, > jungle, and drum and bass, with not very cleAr lines defining each. plus > any can be combined. the days of drug stupors are gone. the last scene > here on the east coast is the illbient/sombient thing coming out of NYC. > instead of an all nite party, this is presented in a well lit gallery from > 11AM to 6PM, and seating is provided. yr meant to sit and listen.check out > dj spooky. its not just for kids anymore. > > corey > Corey: Thanks for the very good clarification concerning the techno movement, including the names of the various genres and their fuzzy boundries. Like any creative art form, techno HAS evolved through several stages, and will inevitibly eventually lead to some form of experimental format that WILL be taken seriously in the near or nearer future (though likely not in the same definition as "classic" as in classic rock or classic metal, I would wager...) Maybe this new thing you describe is the beginning of that. ....Speaking of classics.... I just KNEW that the techno movement was close behind when I heard my step-dad (at age 65) listening and grooving to "Hooked on Classics," a series that placed well known classical music compositions into a disco-beat setting. I liked it too! It really amazed me how many classical compositions worked at the dance-tempos exploited in those recordings! Now, if only Mozart had had a drum machine back in those days....just imagine how much more progressed all this would be now! Anyway... Much of the interest in "trance-inducing" music, whatever it is called officially, is perfectly natural as a human endeavor musically and as an audience "participant." My entire introduction to electronic music took place in an unlit bedroom (with incense burning, of course) back in the mid-to-late sixties, and I'll bet I have a whole bunch of contemporaries out there reading this list! So, what does it matter what gets new electronic music composers going? I'm just glad that all the equipment I used to DREAM about now works!!! -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/