========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:56:25 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: everything old is new again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Harnden (Ronin) wrote: > > i was thinking recently about the emusician's fetish for finding ever > new sounds, motifs, jangly bits, etc. it occurred to me that we are > too enmeshed in the postmodern sensibility, which is caught in a > spiral of edgy over-inventivess, in which the demand for > "freshness" requires both ever-finer-and-more-shallow distinctions > among froms, and excesses of destructive force to push the evolving > (or rather crashing) esthetic. this sensibility sees formal > recapitulation as banal, homage as ripoff. all suggestion is sly. but > need it be so? classical music was a sea of self-reference, and > comfortably so. one of the few "nods" that i've heard in modern > popular electronic music that wasn't explicitly either sarcastic or > offhand is the use of a very pink floyd interval-tuned-oscillator > lead in an FSOL composition. there it was, just being what it was. > too rare these days. i keep saying that this form (emusic) has now > been around long enough to have its idioms taken seriously. i think > we need to review our art, and in a more "classical" eye. we've done > quite a lot of the "horizontal search" - it's time to explore a > little depth, without being afraid of redundancy. to do so will > require concentration. it's really quite easy to fall into old > patterns, to let the machines do your thinking for you. but even with > the mosty limited palette, the most conventional sonic "gestures", i > still think there's a lot of subtlety and meaning to be found. > time to get to work, don't you think? > > -------====< Entropy Eventually Wins >====--------- > > Eric Harnden (Ronin) > (202)885-2746 ... harnden@physics.american.edu > > ---===< And I Like To Be On The Winning Side >===--- Well.... This is what I was referring to as the constraint of "coolness" in a youth culture. If it is defined by the "group" that 'reference to other musics electronic is a not-good thing,' then it will not happen. When one breaks the binds of coolness, or of approval-addiction, or whatever you wish to call it, then you are freed up to really explore your own musical and artistic soul. Then, if a reference is what you yourself deem is what you want and like in a piece of music you are working on, YOU WILL USE IT! All the artists in my crowd of "fine artist types" in Boston and NYC used to be very concerned with commercialism...with "selling-out" to the establishment. So, keeping the art personalized was always an issue. I believe it still is, but the "establishment" is now driven by a youth culture rather than a middle-aged one. Rock in America and Britain in the sixties was a massive exploration in individualism over commercialism -- though, of course, well exploited by commercial entities, and even "egged on" by same, it was considered by all participants and by history as quite revolutionary. BUT, salutations to pre-existing musical styles were regularly employed, both as homage AND as inspiration, and without shame or the threat of disgrace. So, it was a different youth culture then...an unrefined, loosely defined one. The techno culture, on the other hand, seems HARDLY unrefined, and quite strictly defined...just the kind of thing to inspire a select few to come up with something TRULY rebellious! I want to know what that select few are doing nowadays, not how well the established order is managing to evolve within the constraints of a self-imposed status-quo. (And I DO NOT consider the desire to be unconstrained to be a constraining condition!) (heh...) -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ PS: Oh, I know...It's only DANCE music...I should stop picking... Nah! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:04:52 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:55 PM 1/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >>:Is Techno a benefit to culture? >>Of course it is! >>Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call >>earth. > >Not every experience is a benefit. > Techno is. I'll bet most of you out there who are making cracks like this havent even heard 99% of the techno out there. Some of the most innovative sounds and rythmic styles I've heard come from the electronic dance music realm. It's more than just a 4-to-the-floor kick drum. And try not to listen to it on your 4" audiovox car speakers unless you know what you're listening to. Because the people who write it aren't making it for that. They're making it for DJs (and for themselves to DJ) to play on huge sound systems with very large liquid-cooled subwoofers:) Now if that's not yer thing, then it's not yer thing. And yes, it's an art. But if you don't believe that, I don't really care, because it won't stop me from playing it and listening to it. But if you want, I'll email ya some wav or aiff clips of music I'm about to release, WHICH I AM VERY PROUD OF. Thank you. -Courtney ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:10:47 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: off? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just want to thank everybody who responded to my concern that my messages weren't "making it" to the list, both here and via E-mail. What a relief!!! "May the smiles of all the Sultan's daughters fall upon you!" (now THAT's an old one!) :) -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:36:30 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Corey H Maass wrote: > > after reading numerous sides to this bit, i would ask the amount of techno > everyone has heard. techno began with an electric side to club music and > as most pop music from the 80's, it was simple. give people credit in > always inovating a new thing. with in "techo", there is ambient, sombient, > illbient, trip-hop, dub, deep and hard house, house, trance, breakbeat, > jungle, and drum and bass, with not very cleAr lines defining each. plus > any can be combined. the days of drug stupors are gone. the last scene > here on the east coast is the illbient/sombient thing coming out of NYC. > instead of an all nite party, this is presented in a well lit gallery from > 11AM to 6PM, and seating is provided. yr meant to sit and listen.check out > dj spooky. its not just for kids anymore. > > corey > Corey: Thanks for the very good clarification concerning the techno movement, including the names of the various genres and their fuzzy boundries. Like any creative art form, techno HAS evolved through several stages, and will inevitibly eventually lead to some form of experimental format that WILL be taken seriously in the near or nearer future (though likely not in the same definition as "classic" as in classic rock or classic metal, I would wager...) Maybe this new thing you describe is the beginning of that. ....Speaking of classics.... I just KNEW that the techno movement was close behind when I heard my step-dad (at age 65) listening and grooving to "Hooked on Classics," a series that placed well known classical music compositions into a disco-beat setting. I liked it too! It really amazed me how many classical compositions worked at the dance-tempos exploited in those recordings! Now, if only Mozart had had a drum machine back in those days....just imagine how much more progressed all this would be now! Anyway... Much of the interest in "trance-inducing" music, whatever it is called officially, is perfectly natural as a human endeavor musically and as an audience "participant." My entire introduction to electronic music took place in an unlit bedroom (with incense burning, of course) back in the mid-to-late sixties, and I'll bet I have a whole bunch of contemporaries out there reading this list! So, what does it matter what gets new electronic music composers going? I'm just glad that all the equipment I used to DREAM about now works!!! -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ PS: this is possibly a resend, as my server went nuts during the first send-off. But, then again, I repeat myself when I'm under stress.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:40:14 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: technocomment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric Harnden (Ronin) wrote: > > 3) whether or not an utterance is expressive is not the sole domain > of the artist. if communication does not occur, then art is not > present, and the "artist" has failed. a simple "but i like it" does > not qualify anything as art. nor should one seek to legitimate > everything one likes with the overstretched mantle of "art". liking > it is sufficient reason for producing it. Come, now! Art doesn't have to communicate ZIP! The perceiver works with the artist to make it into art. One person sees a murky, dark scenario in an abstract musical section, another a quirky, fun, playful bit of tongue-in-cheek. A third simply finds it fascinating as a focal-point for a meditation. A fourth HATES it because it just sounds like crap to that person. A fifth sees in it the trumpet call to the revolution and an inspiration to "get radical." The artist was JUST PLAYING when he/she came up with the idea originally, and used it because it "sounded right." Now, then, who's right about this? Which communication defines this as "art?" Any artist who lives in the conceit that their art is being "understood" is just plain full of folly! Art is as dependent upon the observer as it is upon the creator. Communication implies a clearly imparted idea. Art does not. > > 4) the thing i have against techno has nothing to do with its style > or its context. what concerns me is the commodification of the value > that i place on my artistic tools. i recently had a very unpleasant > conversation with a young techno-composer whose sole concern seemed > to be how much vintage gear he could squirel away, and how clever he > was at ferreting the stuff out at pirate-low prices. i'm reasonably > certain he uses each piece to make only sound, since that's the > techno mentality... "you just gotta get the jx3yz25000!!! its res > pop is the kewlest!!!" bleah. these devices have value because > artists have invested them with it by the works they produce on > them. one wants this or that because it is *useful*. to have this > value (the desire for a particular tool) itself traded on as the > principal commodity is the ferengi approach to art, and seems to me > to miss the point. > > -------====< Entropy Eventually Wins >====--------- > > Eric Harnden (Ronin) > (202)885-2746 ... harnden@physics.american.edu > > ---===< And I Like To Be On The Winning Side >===--- -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:46:13 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: casual jamming in a paranoid internet environment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Robert M. Sanders wrote > > Jimmy, Spike and Kurt logon to "jamarama" late one night. Jimmy's > plaintive, yet lyrical extemporized vocal "Ode to O.D." overtop of Spike's > wah-wah bass moves Kurt to "end it all". Kurt fills his bass drum with > nitro-glycerin and at the conclusion of the drum solo finishing the track .. Where can I find this "Jamarama"-thing ? I'm very interested in making music thru internet. Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:43:13 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > I've always beleived that all music is art, even > that which is created to be a pure commercial > commodity (such as "MUZAK" or "The Monkees"). Oh please ! If all music was art, I'd stop trying to make good music. The commercial shit they play on radio's is not made because the authors tried to do something creative, but because it makes good money. > I suppose we have a different definition of "Art". I don't have a definition and anyone who claims he does has a long way to go. > Mine is extremely inclusive. I tend to think of any > craftsman's work as Art, and I think it VERY bad to > seperate Art out from the mundane facets of daily > life. Maybe I've done to much Cage. Art will always be something for an elite group. Of course nowadays people like Picasso and Mozart, but art must always be renewing and original, so if you make something like Picasso or Mozart, it is not art. But the only way to be a 100% sure wether something is art or not, you should know everything about the artist, the situation he lives in, the situation in which he created the piece, what he felt, the ideas he tried to put in his work,... so it is impossible to be sure about anything. > I do think the perception and creation of Art is one > of the most valuable things a person can do. Here you are right. For me, art is the only thing I live for. Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:05:33 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEVOTION wrote: > I get kind of angry when someone thinks that some form of art is MORE art than > another. Like you do here. Nomatter what music, which type > of paintings, which sort of lyrics etc. yopu do, you CANNOT tell which is more art > than another. The perception of art is totally > subjective and therefore : one artform is more APPRECIATED by some people > than by other people. > Here we go again : you cannot judge whether it's bad or god. You can say if YOU > like it or not. Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. Wim Mertens is for example a composer who makes art, but I don't like most of his music. A techno song can be very good, but if you don't like techno at all, you want like that particular song either. > > At the other hand, techno is dance music, which means that most bands don't > > try to be renovating, original, arty,... but try to make music on which > > people can dance well. > > So, the more you express with you music, the more original you are the less you > want people to dance to it? No. Every now and then I am dj at parties. And I see that people dance more if the music is non-complicated, commercial and not original. Most people can only "trip" on "easy" music. The more you express with your music, the more people have to "think" to understand your music, then they can't dance. > > If you compare techno with other art styles, you'll see that history > > repeats itself. > > Explain please........ When Picasso made his paintures, everybody said it was crap. When more recent painters made their abstract art, everybody thought they were nuts,... > Not to offend you in any way, but I think this letter is a near perfect example of a > "real" artist with > the "anyone-can-do-that-shit-oomph-oomph-oomph-techno-crap"-attitude, that is > really sick of the thought > that techno earns money and makes people go happy but his (real art) stuff isn't. ;) I'm always trying to make as many different kinds of music as possible. I am also aware of the fact that I will never earn money by making art (it it is art). If people go happy, it's fine with me, but they just can't consider _all_ oooomph oomph music as art. Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:37:43 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply In-Reply-To: <32EED117.104C@mail.rbdc.com> from "Terry Leigh Britton" at Jan 28, 97 11:24:55 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Anyway... Much of the interest in "trance-inducing" music, whatever it > is called officially, is perfectly natural as a human endeavor musically > and as an audience "participant." My entire introduction to electronic > music took place in an unlit bedroom (with incense burning, of course) > back in the mid-to-late sixties, and I'll bet I have a whole bunch of > contemporaries out there reading this list! So, what does it matter what > gets new electronic music composers going? I'm just glad that all the > equipment I used to DREAM about now works!!! I would point techo fans to Balinese gamelan. Gamelan is a study in appropriate use of restrictions. Melodic materials are very restricted - some 5-note, some 8-note - leaving the beauty of the music to intricate interlocking rhythms. Most Balinese percussion is a metallophone of some sort or another. The performer strikes the note with one hand and mutes it with the other. This means that to play at the tempos normally seen (quarter note = 160 or faster!), two players have to play interlocking parts. See Dave Stewart's column in last month's Keyboard for an example tune (Pemungkan), which I did an arramgement of for the last Team session. It sticks in your head, especially with the proper Balinese tuning. Marvelously subtle music. For the ambient types, try the Sundanese music of West Java. A friend will be going to Bali later this year, and I'm getting him to bring back an electronic album by a local artist whose name I don't have with me right now. It is *yummy*. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:32:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Ben Cox Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? In-Reply-To: <199701291324.OAA21614@phobos.glo.be> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. The world is not BLACK or WHITE, the way you appear to see it. __ Ben Cox cox@transarc.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:33:56 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: technocomment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:53 AM 1/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >4) the thing i have against techno has nothing to do with its style >or its context. what concerns me is the commodification of the value >that i place on my artistic tools. i recently had a very unpleasant >conversation with a young techno-composer whose sole concern seemed >to be how much vintage gear he could squirel away, and how clever he >was at ferreting the stuff out at pirate-low prices. i'm reasonably >certain he uses each piece to make only sound, since that's the >techno mentality... "you just gotta get the jx3yz25000!!! its res >pop is the kewlest!!!" bleah. these devices have value because >artists have invested them with it by the works they produce on >them. one wants this or that because it is *useful*. to have this >value (the desire for a particular tool) itself traded on as the >principal commodity is the ferengi approach to art, and seems to me >to miss the point. > > everybody does that, not just techno artists. Many people like to collect things, including synths. But the only thing I have picked up in the last 2 years is a new mixer to replace the old plastic one and a new computer to replace the one that kept erasing my hard disk. I believe that's justified. Most of the techno and house artists I know amaze me for just the opposite: They are able to get sounds out of such a minimal setup that I never thought existed. But if someone wants tons of gear, so what? There's lots of stuff out there. But I do agree that there are musicians (not just techno artists) that could use their gear more. But, oh well. ________________________________________ Courtney Nielsen Electronic Artists Collective (408) 275-9972 cnielsen@earthlink.net ________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:30:41 -0400 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: GARY LEE NELSON Subject: Summer Workshop at Oberlin College 97 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT The Conservatory of Music at Oberlin College invites you to participate in the twelfth annual series of workshops in electronic and computer music, June 15-29, 1997. The workshops are designed for high school and college students, teachers, professional musicians, and hobbyists. These workshops are for anyone who wants to enrich their understanding of new music media. The workshops are Macintosh based and the topics we cover include: sequencing (Vision, MusicShop, Performer) music printing (Finale) synthesizer programming (Galaxy) sampling (Sound Designer, Alchemy, TurboSynth) alternate MIDI controllers algorithmic composition (MAX) For more information about the Workshops in Electronic and Computer Music, contact: Office of Outreach Programs Conservatory of Music, Oberlin College Oberlin, OH 44074 (216-775-8044) Email: anna.hoffmann@qmgate.cc.oberlin.edu or have a look at our web page at: http://timara.con.oberlin.edu/dept/wrkshp.htm PLEASE REPOST TO ANY SITES THAT MAY BE INTERESTED. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:29:44 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: arpeggiators In-Reply-To: <199701281632.LAA01388@mail.netsurfer.com> from "Jon Bennett" at Jan 28, 97 10:44:12 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ten messages in ten minutes, #3 of 10 Jon Bennett writes-- > >Can anyone suggest (if there is one) a rack mount, arpeggiator? No such animal. The Oberheim Cyclone is a freestanding unit. (snerk) mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:31:23 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Techno=Money and other wonders of the world. In-Reply-To: <32EE0C2E.7E25@voy.net> from "Michael Millard" at Jan 28, 97 09:24:46 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ten in ten, #4. Michael Millard writes-- >If the degree makes the musician then where are >they on the bill boards? I suppose its because the >rest of us are idiots. I am sometimes very >disturbed by the lunacy of individuals who get a >degree and suddenly conclude that they have reached >the edge and perfection. They stop persueing >excellance and knowledge because they have it all. >This is foolish and a mode of failure I think. >Perhaps it is easier to say I am now a master of my >craft than to take the tools you have and prove it. >I often refer to Dr. Mike and this is why. He got >his title and put it where it belonged. On a shelf, holding up a photo of my daughter? >He uses >his knowledge to create his art and life but not as >a pitchfork against his peers. Au contraire. Nothing like a PhD to straighten up a surly waiter. ;) mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:28:53 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: The techno discussion In-Reply-To: <32EE073B.2D45@voy.net> from "Michael Millard" at Jan 28, 97 09:03:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ten messages in ten minutes. #2 of 10. Michael Millard writes-- >judgements and sometimes global ones. I get the >empression that Mike and Joe, the entire Team >Metlay for example attepts to push the bondaries. We push the boundaries just by trying to work together for two weeks at a time every two years, but that's another story. :) mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:41:15 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: everything old is new again In-Reply-To: <199701281642.LAA05071@jericho.american.edu> from "Eric Harnden" at Jan 28, 97 11:57:59 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 5 of 10... Eric Harnden writes-- > >i was thinking recently about the emusician's fetish for finding ever >new sounds, motifs, jangly bits, etc. it occurred to me that we are >too enmeshed in the postmodern sensibility, which is caught in a >spiral of edgy over-inventivess, in which the demand for >"freshness" requires both ever-finer-and-more-shallow distinctions >among froms, and excesses of destructive force to push the evolving >(or rather crashing) esthetic. this sensibility sees formal >recapitulation as banal, homage as ripoff. all suggestion is sly. but >need it be so? classical music was a sea of self-reference, and >comfortably so. one of the few "nods" that i've heard in modern >popular electronic music that wasn't explicitly either sarcastic or >offhand is the use of a very pink floyd interval-tuned-oscillator >lead in an FSOL composition. there it was, just being what it was. >too rare these days. i keep saying that this form (emusic) has now >been around long enough to have its idioms taken seriously. i think >we need to review our art, and in a more "classical" eye. we've done >quite a lot of the "horizontal search" - it's time to explore a >little depth, without being afraid of redundancy. to do so will >require concentration. it's really quite easy to fall into old >patterns, to let the machines do your thinking for you. but even with >the mosty limited palette, the most conventional sonic "gestures", i >still think there's a lot of subtlety and meaning to be found. >time to get to work, don't you think? It's been 'time to get to work' for over a decade, and the people who do so generally find their work ignored in favor of the new'n'weirdish. Fortunately that doesn't stop most folks from trying.... mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:54:12 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: everything old is new again In-Reply-To: <32EEBC50.63F8@dgii.com> from "Jeff Fried" at Jan 28, 97 06:56:16 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 8 of 10... Jeff Fried writes-- >> > >Who is FSOL? Is it an acronym or the name of the band/artist? FSOL stands for Future Sound Of London, a fairly clever techno duet whose catalog has been accepted into the bosom of the community with great cries of ecstasy. It's good stuff, but at this point it seems a bit too concerned with its own cuttingedgeness. I recommend a spin of their first full- length CD, _Accelerator,_ if you can find it. "Expander" is the opening track, and one of the better examples of the techno genre I can think of. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:02:14 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: technocomment In-Reply-To: <32EEE2BE.289C@mail.rbdc.com> from "Terry Leigh Britton" at Jan 29, 97 00:40:14 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 10 of 10, far behind schedule. Dammit. Terry Leigh Britton writes-- > >Any artist who lives in the conceit that their art is being "understood" >is just plain full of folly! Art is as dependent upon the observer as it >is upon the creator. Communication implies a clearly imparted idea. Art >does not. Nick Rothwell, on a recent visit to the USA, brought me a gift: the VIZ Book Of Crap Jokes. One of the first ones was a cartoon of two art critics standing in front of an abstract painting. Next to the painting, a guy in a spattered smock holding a palette and some brushes is frantically trying to talk to them, but a kerchief has been tied over his mouth and he can't get out anything more coherent than "MMF! MMMMF!" Punchline: One critic is saying to the other, "I'm not sure what the artist is trying to say here." Funny in context, apt in this discussion. mike (back to work....) -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:07:36 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jon Bennett Subject: Re: Ambient music MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My current favorite is William Orbits album Strange Cargo III, more along ambient than house 'tho ---------- > From: Steven Kelly > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Ambient music > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 1:24 AM > > Hey everybody, I'm looking for some good Ambient/house music...need some > good names/cd titles to look for, thanks... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:07:26 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. > > The world is not BLACK or WHITE, the way you appear to see it. > > __ > Ben Cox > cox@transarc.com I don't mean to divide the art world in black and white, I only tried to say that something can be art, wether you like it or not, and you can like something, wether it is art or not. Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:26:51 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Jon Bennett Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for the pointers! I, being a tekno fan and interested in "trance-inducing" music was really pleased with the observations. I already knew of Balinese gamelan and when I first heard it I was reminded of what I felt like when I first heard some really cool tekno. The Balinese really know how to party. If you investigate the cultural setting in which gamelan is used it becomes more clear that this "old" art form has much to offer us "new" music authors. I will have to investigate the Sundanese forms. Do you have any pointers where I can get a "typical" CD of this music? ---------- > From: Joe McMahon > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 9:37 AM > > > Anyway... Much of the interest in "trance-inducing" music, whatever it > > is called officially, is perfectly natural as a human endeavor musically > > and as an audience "participant." My entire introduction to electronic > > music took place in an unlit bedroom (with incense burning, of course) > > back in the mid-to-late sixties, and I'll bet I have a whole bunch of > > contemporaries out there reading this list! So, what does it matter what > > gets new electronic music composers going? I'm just glad that all the > > equipment I used to DREAM about now works!!! > > I would point techo fans to Balinese gamelan. Gamelan is a study in > appropriate use of restrictions. Melodic materials are very restricted - > some 5-note, some 8-note - leaving the beauty of the music to intricate > interlocking rhythms. Most Balinese percussion is a metallophone of some > sort or another. The performer strikes the note with one hand and mutes > it with the other. This means that to play at the tempos normally seen > (quarter note = 160 or faster!), two players have to play interlocking > parts. > > See Dave Stewart's column in last month's Keyboard for an example tune > (Pemungkan), which I did an arramgement of for the last Team session. > > It sticks in your head, especially with the proper Balinese tuning. > Marvelously subtle music. For the ambient types, try the Sundanese > music of West Java. A friend will be going to Bali later this year, > and I'm getting him to bring back an electronic album by a local > artist whose name I don't have with me right now. It is *yummy*. > > --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:48:45 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: technocomment In-Reply-To: <199701281537.KAA28719@jericho.american.edu> from "Eric Harnden" at Jan 28, 97 10:53:30 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 6 of 10, probably worth a revisit when time allows (ha ha ha).... Eric Harnden writes-- > >1) the ways in which techno is differentiated have always mystified >and amused me. all these subcategories of such a monolithic form. i >really think it's done just so that the people who make the >distinctions can pretend to take them seriously, so that when someone >like me comes along they can be smugly righteous in their clannish >knowledge of my obvious cluelessness. bleah. I have seen very little evidence to the contrary, but have been having fun exercising my taxonomical abilities anyway. My latest exercise is to play the same piece for three different people and watch them all give it different labels. They usually agree only after I say who did it: "LFO? Oh, then it's blipcore." "You said it wasn't." "I was wrong." >2) personally, i think a fair amount of the music has merit. it gets >dull, but i quite like big chunks of it in doses. some of the >programming is clever, but actually i still think that the soul/rap >axis has been the most inventive with machine subversion. Machine subversion is good. It's always been good. The problem is that you need to be pretty clever to subvert some of the machines they're throwing at us, these days. Too many safety nets built in. >3) whether or not an utterance is expressive is not the sole domain >of the artist. if communication does not occur, then art is not >present, and the "artist" has failed. a simple "but i like it" does >not qualify anything as art. nor should one seek to legitimate >everything one likes with the overstretched mantle of "art". liking >it is sufficient reason for producing it. I have not and will not state a position on the whole "what is art" thing here. I have few enough friends as it is. >4) the thing i have against techno has nothing to do with its style >or its context. what concerns me is the commodification of the value >that i place on my artistic tools. i recently had a very unpleasant >conversation with a young techno-composer whose sole concern seemed >to be how much vintage gear he could squirel away, and how clever he >was at ferreting the stuff out at pirate-low prices. i'm reasonably >certain he uses each piece to make only sound, since that's the >techno mentality... "you just gotta get the jx3yz25000!!! its res >pop is the kewlest!!!" bleah. these devices have value because >artists have invested them with it by the works they produce on >them. one wants this or that because it is *useful*. to have this >value (the desire for a particular tool) itself traded on as the >principal commodity is the ferengi approach to art, and seems to me >to miss the point. That's nothing new either, and often the loudest complainers about it in the field are the sour-grapes folks who have missed out on the deals and now can't find their OWN toyz, except at exorbitant prices. My attitude on this matter is aggravating to them as well, but I see no reason not to state it here: Find your own toys and make your own music, and shut the hell up about what you can't do because of what you don't have. No one cares about why you aren't producing anything. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:51:15 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: everything old is new again -Reply In-Reply-To: from "Robert M. Sanders" at Jan 28, 97 06:26:26 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7 of 10, now badly behind schedule because of a pause to download a patronizing letter from my editor explaining that the April Fool's article for RECORDING isn't funny because it didn't make him laugh (despite the fact that everyone else who read it fell down and wet themselves over it). Editors.....:-P Robert M. Sanders writes-- > >As it is gets harder to aesthetically impress ourselves and each other >through this medium of advancing technologies, it gets easier to kill, main >and destroy one another. And as it gets harder to express supportive opinions on this list as the topic gets more and more rarefied, it will become easier to instead say things that teach nothing and only inflict pain. Something to keep in mind as the temperature rises. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:37:04 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Peter Harlan Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. > > The world is not BLACK or WHITE, the way you appear to see it. > The world *is* black and white; then again, it's *not*. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:21:08 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DEVOTION Subject: Psyco drums? Comments: To: electronica@maths.exeter.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone give me a good example or a precise description of what lies behind the term "syncopated drums". I've heard it quite a few times now (mostly when the subject is jungle or drum and bass programming), but noone seems to be in a position to teach me the secrets of this type of drums or drumprogramming. If anyone has a VERY little midifile that has a syncopated drumloop, I would be glad to have it mailed to me. -- Over 'n out! :] DEVOTION '97 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:45:29 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: DEVOTION Subject: Samples for AWE32 Comments: To: SYNTH-L@AMERICAN.EDU, electronica@maths.exeter.ac.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A friend of mine just bought an AWE32 and I promised him to find out : 1. Where we can find free samples (in the SBK format that fits the card) on the net? 2. If we can turn .wav files into .sbk files? 3. If we can load several banks of samples onto the card in one step? 4. If we can make Cubase do the job of collecting the used samples for a certain song? -- Over 'n out! :] DEVOTION '97 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:07:49 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Rodger wrote: > > The past two years, I have been trying to find a definition for Art, > > together with some fellow students who appreciate Art and philosophy - like > > me. Since I'm a composer too, I mostly study which music is art and which > > is not. > > So much has been written about this, from the Ancients to Walter Benjamin > and beyond, don't go "re-inventing the wheel" (as they say). I know I will never find a true and complete definition for art, but I'm definitely not "re-inventing the wheel". People change, the society changes, and because of that, any possible defintion of art changes too. > > As with all new art styles, people have to get used to techno before they > > can like it. > > The automatic assumption that techno, as a new "thing", _is_ art seems to be > somewhat at odds with the previous statement. You don't seem to have made a > determination on whether it is or is not. Techno is _not_ art. It's a style. A techno song _can_ be art. > Note, I have _not_ said that techno is not art. In any case, once we start > talking about what is or is not art, we have to consider what is good art > and what is bad art since the art implies some elevated status among > culture in general. Let's start trying to find out wether something is art or not. The good-bad part is way too complicated to discuss when we can't agree on the first part. Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:46:42 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe McMahon wrote: > > > Anyway... Much of the interest in "trance-inducing" music, whatever it > > is called officially, is perfectly natural as a human endeavor musically > > and as an audience "participant." My entire introduction to electronic > > music took place in an unlit bedroom (with incense burning, of course) > > back in the mid-to-late sixties, and I'll bet I have a whole bunch of > > contemporaries out there reading this list! So, what does it matter what > > gets new electronic music composers going? I'm just glad that all the > > equipment I used to DREAM about now works!!! > > I would point techo fans to Balinese gamelan. Gamelan is a study in > appropriate use of restrictions. Melodic materials are very restricted - > some 5-note, some 8-note - leaving the beauty of the music to intricate > interlocking rhythms. Most Balinese percussion is a metallophone of some > sort or another. The performer strikes the note with one hand and mutes > it with the other. This means that to play at the tempos normally seen > (quarter note = 160 or faster!), two players have to play interlocking > parts. > > See Dave Stewart's column in last month's Keyboard for an example tune > (Pemungkan), which I did an arramgement of for the last Team session. > > It sticks in your head, especially with the proper Balinese tuning. > Marvelously subtle music. For the ambient types, try the Sundanese > music of West Java. A friend will be going to Bali later this year, > and I'm getting him to bring back an electronic album by a local > artist whose name I don't have with me right now. It is *yummy*. > > --- Joe M. Joe, I couldn't agree more! Probably the most important study I ever undertook (in that it "matured" my thinking in so many ways) was that of Balinese and Sudanese music. Very few records were available back in the early seventies when I was exposed to it by a professor of mine, but between Nonesuch and Duetche-Grammaphone and a couple of others, I managed to find enough material to study. Few people had written scores of the music back then, and what there was did not reflect the manner in which the music was actually performed (multiple players playing interlocking parts). Nonetheless, what this study taught me about the possibilities within a framework of very few notes and other limitations NOT ONLY made me glad to have more notes to play with in my scales (heh), but made me particularly aware of the depths one can attain even within such a sparcity of elements. And it can be hypnotic as all get out! Actually, I have heard a couple of "hard-core" (that is, very fast tempo) techno pieces that reminded me of the Balinese forms, but I'm not sure if that was intentional or if it was merely a by-product of the arpeggiator driving the samplers in those tunes. Anyhow, thanks for bringing that up. I agree that anyone can benefit from a study of those forms. The discoveries are very exciting, IMHO. -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:00:05 +1000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: David Rodger Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi emusicians, Verraes wrote: > most bands don't > try to be renovating, original, arty,... If the good ones do, is that why it was called house music? ;-) Regards, David musdr@lure.latrobe.edu.au http://farben.latrobe.edu.au/d_rodger/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:05:05 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Dominick Baier Subject: Ambient CDs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, my name is Dominick and i come from Heidelberg, Germany. We have a local label which concentrates on ambient music, maybe you heard of it because it became famouus the last years. Source Records. Check out their releases (if your local record dealer has them) especially : Deep Space Network - Big Rooms Move-D - Kunststoff Kobat - Music for a prepared piano (all piano tracks) check out too : All from Autechre (Warp records) some FAX rec. CDs all form Future Sound of London etc.. Bye. Dominick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:42:37 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Yvan Vander Sanden Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wow! I did not expect that much respons. But I've should have known better, when I re-read my original message, I can imagine it sounds a bit offensive to a lot of you. Believe me, this was not my intention. I would like to have it put more kindly, but I'm not a native speaker and it is not always easy to put it clear.(to make it sound kindly is even more difficult). I hope that you all think discussion is interesting, also if ideas are different. At least, that's what I think. I haven't come to a final conclusion to this point and I guess this will never happen. Now, the answer to your reply's: 1. I didn't say that people are no individuals. It's just that I don't believe that because we are all individuals, no one can say what is good or less good (I wont use 'bad' anymore, O.K.?) music. The composition-teacher was just an example to show you that it is possible to say something meaningfull about someone's music, even if you don't like the style. This does not mean that there aren't people who didn't study music can't talk sense about music. I know some of them I have a lot of respect towards them. It is even more difficult if you have to find out everything yourself. And yes, there are a lot of musicians with a degree that criticise music in an unreasonable way. What I defenitly do not like are people saying something like this: 'Yes, I like this piece and I do not now why, but it's good because I like it. And this piece is bad because I don't like it. Don't start a discussion about this. Every individual is different and therefore, you can not know what is good or bad.' And believe me, I've heard this (or something similar) from musicians with a degree, musicians without a degree and people who have nothing to with music. If it comes to Bach, I think no one will disagree when I say that his music is good. We all know about the complexitivity of his music. No one will say that he's missing the point because he did not use Schoenberg's twelve-tone system. We put his music in a historical context (style), and every context (style) has it's own rules. The students who threw tomato's during the first performance of Stravinsky's 'Sacre du Printemps' where not thoughtfull. They should have studied the music and Stravinsky's idea's first, before doing this. If they found out the music was not good because in this style; if one could write something much better and make the same message clear, then they could rightfully say so. (It's still not very polite to throw tomato's, but then again, this was part of the social context of that time.) I agree this is easy when the style accepted and more difficult when we're talking about a new style, like techno. But I think we must try it. This can only be a benifit to the true techno-artists, because then we can distinct them clearly from the people who are nothing more as bad imitators. (Personaly, I think the most composers are part of the last kind, but I think this is also true for other styles.) 2. I think an original idea, stucture and a clear message are always important. Will Moore wrote the following reply: >I'm going to put my hat, checkbook and a dog biscuit in a pot. >An original, clear and structured idea. >ergo! Art! At first this is no original idea. Many artists have done this before you with other objects, therefore: I should say this is imitation. The first artist who did this (I don't recall his name) was, on the contrary, making art. At that time, it was original, it was structured (he made an exhibition with many related works) and his message was clear: he wanted the public to ask themselves the question "What is art?". I think you can apply this on techno composers as well. Besides, can anyone agree with me as I say a lot of this kind of art is intended to question something, not to make a statement? 3. I will not deny the importance of poetry. I love poetry and how could we make vocal compositions without all those great poets? (of course it is possible, just listen to ligeti's Lux Aeterna. But maybe there should exist very little choral music when composers did not know poetry. In this was a fact, Ligeti might have never thougth a composition for 16 voices singing together...) When I said poetry is just poetry, this is not my opinion. But I think you can agree when I say that although most people can't live without music, a lot of them do not read poetry very often. Since most of you are native English speakers, you may not be aware of this: A lot of the young people in Belgium do not understand the English text's in most pop-songs. But it does not seem to matter. It's most important to them that the music sounds good. Knowing this, it seems fair to me that for a lot of people 'poetry is just poetry, it's not part of their lives'. Again, this is not what I think. This was just a statement to make clear why people do not any criticism towards the music they like. Probaly your friends aren't like that, but otherwise I don't tink you'd become friends. Just take a look at our schools and a lot of people who work in our factory with a low social status (of course not all of them, I'm just talking about the majority). They are just consumating the music the media wants them to. 4. Can't I compare Blake's poem with the few sentences I wrote and say mine's not art? The poems where just an example to show you that is possible to recognize art. !!! This is not the same as defining art. !!! Mark D. Camp replied that the two poems have the same message and they are both a different way of expression. I can agree with that. But this was not my point. The point was that it is possible to recognize art. If we discovered the second poem, and it was written down in the 19th century by someone called William Blake, we would not consider this as a poem. We would think he just wrote something down. If we did not now Blake at all, no-one would say that he was a poet just by reading this message. The first poem on contrary, is recognized as art a long time ago. If you do not agree with that, I will give you 5$ to say so on a poetry list. If it is possible to recognize art, it's also possible to recognize things that are no art. Of course we can not be certain about it, but most of the time we can have a good feeling about it. (I mean a feeling based on logic thinking stuctured analysis, not on feeling itself.) There are a lot of things we cannot define, but this does not mean they cannot exist. If we can recognize it, this must come from something. I will try to give an other example, but don't shoot me if it is not completely correct: We cannot define God, but many people have a strong feeling that he exists. In this particular case it's also very difficult to recognize him. But I have a strong feeling that the spoon beside me is NOT God. We don't know what he is, but there are some things that he is probaly not. Can't we do the same thing with art? Can't we develop some agreement about art? Of course, the rules are different for every style, and even for every piece of music, but this does not mean we can't say something is good art or less good art because we are all individuals and because we all like different music. I agree with Mathias Verraes in another message: >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. >Wim Mertens is for example a composer who makes art, but I don't like most >of his music. A techno song can be very good, but if you don't like techno >at all, you want like that particular song either. LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT: this is the part we cannot discus, because we're individuals. GOOD or BAD: about this we can talk. A good piece of music must have some qualities. We have to difine other qualifying qualities for every piece of music, but there are always some guidelines. 5. I must admit that the last part of my message was not the strongest one. As you said, when you work on a composition for to long, the original idea can get lost. The time you work on a piece is indeed not indicating it's degree of art. (But I always like to revise my work, and try to refine it.) I should not have mentioned my techno-'composition'. I'm not a techno expert and I'm sure you can do much better than me. It's just that the techno composers I know are only in it for the money. They make other kinds of music if they're doing something they really like. But thanks to you, I've learned that some people DO like it. As I said, I lost track of the original idea here, which was the part on individuals. This heavy criticism was adressed towards the techno-composers as I know them, and also towards the ones Mathias Verraes seems to know them. (Maybe they are REALLY different in Belgium?) If you people are truly dedicated to it, then I'm sure there is some valuable music in it. 6. Mark D. Camp wrote: >But when someone who's .sig file says >"technology in Music Education' and that he is a 'Music Educator' comes >up with such narrow minded comments about art and music, it makes me want >to fly to Belgium and kick this guy in the..... And it makes me wonder >what he is teaching to his students. > >I've been lurking on this list for a while, a little intemidated by most >of the 'music educator's' on this list. Some may remember my first post >about if I was 'qualified' enough as an emusician to have the honor of >subscribing to this list. Its not an honor. I do not know what it takes to become a music educator in the U.S. Here, there are different levels, I have studied to teach students at university-level. If you wonder what I teach my students: I do not 'teach' them anything. I just pose my oppinion (sometimes a bit controverse) and then I want them to think about it and formulate their ideas. I don't mind if they not agree with me, but the subjects I try to discuss are to important to have no idea at all about it. (As a matter of fact, I think I'm going to use thougths from this discussion in my class.) I did not post an introduction to this list. I shall try to do it now. The reason I subscribed is because I'm working on a post-graduate about technology in music education. (You may have noticed this already.) I'm already integrating technology to improve teaching in our current curriculum. But I think it can also be usefull to study a bit more about e-music itself. We could hardly talk about e-music in music class when we used only orff-instruments, but now whe're using technology, this can become an interesting new feature. But do not think I do not know anything about e-music. Yes, my sig.file says I'm a music educator. I think it is a bit un-necessary to include all the things I've studied. I choose music educator because it's the thing I currently do. But since you ask yourself if I'm qualified enough I will tell you that I also studied classical composition, music psychology and contemporary Jazz. If you all think I do not belong on this list, just let me know. greetings, Yvan Vander Sanden Technology in Music Education: Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven Oude markt 31 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel. 0032/16/232819 E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:42:49 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Scott Purman Subject: hey List owner, I'm receiving two copies of every post, can you please make sure my old address is unsubscribed: scott_purman@nile.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:39:33 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: Yvan Vander Sanden: Please Stay On This List! Yvan wrote: < If you all think I do not belong on this list, just let me know. < Yvan: I value your contributions to this list. Even when I vehemently disagree. The interchange will of course be futile if CONSENSUS is the goal, but if the goal is to stimulate everyone into revisiting and refining their own opinion, whether on what is art, techno, good, bad, etc., then your presence is appreciated by at least me. Not being English, I hope my next thought doesn't offend anyone. I see this list as kind of like that noisy English House of Commons. Better to speak up and spark controversy. The worst is when nobody has anything to post. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:44:38 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yvan Vander Sanden wrote: >..... If you all think I do not belong on this list, just let me know. > > greetings, > > Yvan Vander Sanden > Technology in Music Education: > Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven > Oude markt 31 > B-3000 Leuven > Belgium > Tel. 0032/16/232819 > E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be > > I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. > Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ********************************************** "Well, what do you say, lads and lasses??? Should we let him stay?? I say a hardy YES!!!" (unsettled murmering, and a restless shuffling begins to grow in the crowd...) "Now, then!! Are we not men????" (clearly confused, half of the crowd's murmerings die down...) "That's better, now!! So! None of us are heading off to Belgium to pop ANYONE in the nose now, are we??? I, for one, have cancelled MY ticket!" (this elicits a loud burst of approval from one quarter of the mob) "These fierce debates concerning ART and MUSIC, and whether my colorful underwear is art or not...(shows underwear)...this is beneath us! Am I right, mates????!!" (a roar of solidarity ensues from the crowd, and a new bonding of the masses takes place!) "So! Could we have reached this point without Yvan?? I say, NO!!! THREE CHEERS FOR A MAN WHO RIVALS MARCEL DUCHAMP HIMSELF FOR CREATING SOLIDARITY AMONG ARTISTS OF VARIIED TASTES AND DISCIPLINES!!!!!" (three rings of "hip-hop, HOORAY!" bursts from the enthralled crowd! The matter is finally settled!) (whew! time to take a rest!!) -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 21:48:36 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MJ Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dang, yooz a deeeep bruva, G!!! ---------- > From: Yvan Vander Sanden > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 5:42 PM > > Wow! I did not expect that much respons. But I've should have known better, > when I re-read my original message, I can imagine it sounds a bit offensive > to a lot of you. Believe me, this was not my intention. I would like to have > it put more kindly, but I'm not a native speaker and it is not always easy > to put it clear.(to make it sound kindly is even more difficult). > I hope that you all think discussion is interesting, also if ideas are > different. At least, that's what I think. I haven't come to a final > conclusion to this point and I guess this will never happen. > > Now, the answer to your reply's: > > 1. I didn't say that people are no individuals. It's just that I don't > believe that because we are all individuals, no one can say what is good or > less good (I wont use 'bad' anymore, O.K.?) music. The composition-teacher > was just an example to show you that it is possible to say something > meaningfull about someone's music, even if you don't like the style. This > does not mean that there aren't people who didn't study music can't talk > sense about music. I know some of them I have a lot of respect towards them. > It is even more difficult if you have to find out everything yourself. > And yes, there are a lot of musicians with a degree that criticise music in > an unreasonable way. What I defenitly do not like are people saying > something like this: > > 'Yes, I like this piece and I do not now why, but it's good because I like > it. And this piece is bad because I don't like it. Don't start a discussion > about this. Every individual is different and therefore, you can not know > what is good or bad.' > > And believe me, I've heard this (or something similar) from musicians with a > degree, musicians without a degree and people who have nothing to with music. > If it comes to Bach, I think no one will disagree when I say that his music > is good. We all know about the complexitivity of his music. No one will say > that he's missing the point because he did not use Schoenberg's twelve-tone > system. We put his music in a historical context (style), and every context > (style) has it's own rules. > The students who threw tomato's during the first performance of Stravinsky's > 'Sacre du Printemps' where not thoughtfull. They should have studied the > music and Stravinsky's idea's first, before doing this. If they found out > the music was not good because in this style; if one could write something > much better and make the same message clear, then they could rightfully say > so. (It's still not very polite to throw tomato's, but then again, this was > part of the social context of that time.) > > I agree this is easy when the style accepted and more difficult when we're > talking about a new style, like techno. But I think we must try it. This can > only be a benifit to the true techno-artists, because then we can distinct > them clearly from the people who are nothing more as bad imitators. > (Personaly, I think the most composers are part of the last kind, but I > think this is also true for other styles.) > > 2. I think an original idea, stucture and a clear message are always > important. Will Moore wrote the following reply: > > >I'm going to put my hat, checkbook and a dog biscuit in a pot. > >An original, clear and structured idea. > >ergo! Art! > > At first this is no original idea. Many artists have done this before you > with other objects, therefore: I should say this is imitation. The first > artist who did this (I don't recall his name) was, on the contrary, making > art. At that time, it was original, it was structured (he made an exhibition > with many related works) and his message was clear: he wanted the public to > ask themselves the question "What is art?". I think you can apply this on > techno composers as well. Besides, can anyone agree with me as I say a lot > of this kind of art is intended to question something, not to make a statement? > > 3. I will not deny the importance of poetry. I love poetry and how could we > make vocal compositions without all those great poets? (of course it is > possible, just listen to ligeti's Lux Aeterna. But maybe there should exist > very little choral music when composers did not know poetry. In this was a > fact, Ligeti might have never thougth a composition for 16 voices singing > together...) > When I said poetry is just poetry, this is not my opinion. But I think you > can agree when I say that although most people can't live without music, a > lot of them do not read poetry very often. Since most of you are native > English speakers, you may not be aware of this: A lot of the young people in > Belgium do not understand the English text's in most pop-songs. But it does > not seem to matter. It's most important to them that the music sounds good. > Knowing this, it seems fair to me that for a lot of people 'poetry is just > poetry, it's not part of their lives'. Again, this is not what I think. This > was just a statement to make clear why people do not any criticism towards > the music they like. Probaly your friends aren't like that, but otherwise I > don't tink you'd become friends. Just take a look at our schools and a lot > of people who work in our factory with a low social status (of course not > all of them, I'm just talking about the majority). They are just consumating > the music the media wants them to. > > 4. Can't I compare Blake's poem with the few sentences I wrote and say > mine's not art? The poems where just an example to show you that is possible > to recognize art. !!! This is not the same as defining art. !!! > Mark D. Camp replied that the two poems have the same message and they are > both a different way of expression. I can agree with that. But this was not > my point. The point was that it is possible to recognize art. If we > discovered the second poem, and it was written down in the 19th century by > someone called William Blake, we would not consider this as a poem. We would > think he just wrote something down. If we did not now Blake at all, no-one > would say that he was a poet just by reading this message. > The first poem on contrary, is recognized as art a long time ago. If you do > not agree with that, I will give you 5$ to say so on a poetry list. > > If it is possible to recognize art, it's also possible to recognize things > that are no art. Of course we can not be certain about it, but most of the > time we can have a good feeling about it. (I mean a feeling based on logic > thinking stuctured analysis, not on feeling itself.) There are a lot of > things we cannot define, but this does not mean they cannot exist. If we can > recognize it, this must come from something. > > I will try to give an other example, but don't shoot me if it is not > completely correct: > We cannot define God, but many people have a strong feeling that he exists. > In this particular case it's also very difficult to recognize him. But I > have a strong feeling that the spoon beside me is NOT God. We don't know > what he is, but there are some things that he is probaly not. > > Can't we do the same thing with art? Can't we develop some agreement about > art? Of course, the rules are different for every style, and even for every > piece of music, but this does not mean we can't say something is good art or > less good art because we are all individuals and because we all like > different music. > > I agree with Mathias Verraes in another message: > >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. > >Wim Mertens is for example a composer who makes art, but I don't like most > >of his music. A techno song can be very good, but if you don't like techno > >at all, you want like that particular song either. > > LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT: this is the part we cannot discus, because we're > individuals. > GOOD or BAD: about this we can talk. A good piece of music must have some > qualities. We have to difine other qualifying qualities for every piece of > music, but there are always some guidelines. > > 5. I must admit that the last part of my message was not the strongest one. > As you said, when you work on a composition for to long, the original idea > can get lost. > The time you work on a piece is indeed not indicating it's degree of art. > (But I always like to revise my work, and try to refine it.) > I should not have mentioned my techno-'composition'. I'm not a techno expert > and I'm sure you can do much better than me. It's just that the techno > composers I know are only in it for the money. They make other kinds of > music if they're doing something they really like. But thanks to you, I've > learned that some people DO like it. > As I said, I lost track of the original idea here, which was the part on > individuals. > This heavy criticism was adressed towards the techno-composers as I know > them, and also towards the ones Mathias Verraes seems to know them. (Maybe > they are REALLY different in Belgium?) If you people are truly dedicated to > it, then I'm sure there is some valuable music in it. > > 6. Mark D. Camp wrote: > >But when someone who's .sig file says > >"technology in Music Education' and that he is a 'Music Educator' comes > >up with such narrow minded comments about art and music, it makes me want > >to fly to Belgium and kick this guy in the..... And it makes me wonder > >what he is teaching to his students. > > > >I've been lurking on this list for a while, a little intemidated by most > >of the 'music educator's' on this list. Some may remember my first post > >about if I was 'qualified' enough as an emusician to have the honor of > >subscribing to this list. Its not an honor. > > I do not know what it takes to become a music educator in the U.S. Here, > there are different levels, I have studied to teach students at > university-level. If you wonder what I teach my students: I do not 'teach' > them anything. I just pose my oppinion (sometimes a bit controverse) and > then I want them to think about it and formulate their ideas. I don't mind > if they not agree with me, but the subjects I try to discuss are to > important to have no idea at all about it. (As a matter of fact, I think I'm > going to use thougths from this discussion in my class.) > > I did not post an introduction to this list. I shall try to do it now. The > reason I subscribed is because I'm working on a post-graduate about > technology in music education. (You may have noticed this already.) I'm > already integrating technology to improve teaching in our current > curriculum. But I think it can also be usefull to study a bit more about > e-music itself. We could hardly talk about e-music in music class when we > used only orff-instruments, but now whe're using technology, this can become > an interesting new feature. But do not think I do not know anything about > e-music. Yes, my sig.file says I'm a music educator. I think it is a bit > un-necessary to include all the things I've studied. I choose music educator > because it's the thing I currently do. But since you ask yourself if I'm > qualified enough I will tell you that I also studied classical composition, > music psychology and contemporary Jazz. If you all think I do not belong on > this list, just let me know. > > greetings, > > Yvan Vander Sanden > Technology in Music Education: > Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven > Oude markt 31 > B-3000 Leuven > Belgium > Tel. 0032/16/232819 > E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be > > I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. > Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 05:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Lauran Gangl Subject: Re: Psyco drums? Comments: cc: kenneth_petersen@dk-online.dk Yeah me too! So Kenneth if you get one, can you send it to me - thanks. Always trying to be a percussionist ;-) Share the music, Lauran ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 09:43:22 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Joe McMahon Subject: Re: Chord progressions -Reply In-Reply-To: <199701291915.OAA07201@mail.netsurfer.com> from "Jon Bennett" at Jan 29, 97 01:26:51 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I will have to investigate the Sundanese forms. Do you > have any pointers where I can get a "typical" CD of this > music? Sundanese Degung-Sabilulungan Music of West Java vol II Interra Records IN5704 This is a very interestingly packaged CD, BTW. The CD has a marvelous silkscreen of 3 flute players, the track list is printed on the CD tray liner, and there's a little bit of evocative text on the back cover over a picture of little roadside shrine. That's it. Oh yeah - there's a transparent sticker on the front of the jewel box with the name of the album on it too. Subtle. Cheap. Nice. --- Joe M. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:58:10 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >At 03:55 PM 1/28/97 +0000, you wrote: >>>:Is Techno a benefit to culture? >>>Of course it is! >>>Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call >>>earth. >> >>Not every experience is a benefit. >> >Techno is. I didn't say it wasn't. Please pay attention. Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:11:12 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Otwell Subject: Re: Techno I'm not even sure if I _have_ any techno. Is "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" techno? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:11:22 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: William B Fox Subject: Radio & Live Emusic Shows Comments: To: DJHaley@aol.com, ambient@hyperreal.com, analogue@hyperreal.com, chuckv@p3.net, synth-l@american.edu Tonight on EMUSIC: ------------------ On tonight's show, I will feature two emerging artists, Bill Forcier and Dennis Haley. They will also be performing in Philadelphia this Saturday night, February 1st, at the new concert series, First Night Out. This concert series, organized by Chuck Van Zyl, who is the host of the long running space music program, Star's End, begins at 8pm in The Bowlroom of Houston Hall, 3417 Spruce Street, Philadelphia, PA. For more information about Star's End and the First Night Out concert series, see the Star's End web site at http://www.starsend.org or tune in to Star's End this Saturday night/Sunday morning from 1am-6am on: 88.5fm WXPN Philadelphia, PA 88.1fm WXPH Harrisburg, PA 90.5fm Worton/Baltimore, MD 104.9fm Allentown, PA In the mean time, hear the work of these artists tonight on EMUSIC. So join me on WDIY and enjoy a universe of cosmic music! Bill BillFox@lucent.com Host of "Emusic" Thursdays at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown/Bethlehem and now, via our translator, at 93.9 FM Easton/Phillipsburg ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:58:05 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: The techno discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In the world of electronic music and experimentation, rules of compostion >are just plain rude. I think that being dogmatic is plain rude as well. What's wrong with composition in electronic music? Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:25:34 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Marshall Otwell Subject: Re: Yvan Vander Sanden: Please Stay On This List! > Yvan wrote: > < > If you all think I do not belong on this list, just let me know. > < > Yvan: > > I value your contributions to this list. Even when I vehemently disagree. > Yup. Me too. And I admit I was glad to see someone trying to make a point about some aesthetic principles other than pure subjectivity. I understand the "eye of the beholder" viewpoint, and subscribe to it to a great degree (as a younger person, my facile definition of music was "sound perceived in a certain [musical?] way" - thinking of the african tribesmen grooving to the sound of the raggedy old jeep engine). But it's hard now to accept the notion that there are _no_ objective standards for evaluation... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:57:00 -0600 Reply-To: Deckard Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deckard Subject: FSOL In-Reply-To: <199701291754.JAA13940@netcom23.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Don't want to bog the list with unlisty discussion, but... > FSOL stands for Future Sound Of London, a fairly clever techno duet whose > catalog has been accepted into the bosom of the community with great cries of > ecstasy. It's good stuff, but at this point it seems a bit too concerned > with its own cuttingedgeness. Definitely. The new Dead Cities demonstrates a variety of musical styles and talents, but is not at all indicative of how well they can compose evocative, colorful sound compositions. I think either of the Lifeform releases (LP, EP) do it much better. Incidently, the Lifeforms EP features Liz Frasure, the vocalist from the Cocteau Twins. > I recommend a spin of their first full- > length CD, _Accelerator,_ if you can find it. "Expander" is the opening > track, and one of the better examples of the techno genre I can think of. Really? I think this one's entirely too dated sounding, with the one exception of the song "Papua New Guinea." Accelerator has some cheesey sampling work ("it's not my problem"..."we are the future") sprinkled here and there. "Calcium" is another good'n, though. In 1993, FSOL released the Cascade EP, which promissed an entirely new method of fusing the "real" with the "synthetic." Their technique was refined with the Lifeforms album and the ensuing EP. Their monumental "live" album, ISDN, is a compilation of tracks from on ongoing series of live ISDN broadcasts which FSOL occasionally transmits directly from their studio just outside London. Come to think of it, they did one about 2 weeks ago, i believe. Anyone with RealAudio can listen. Hope this isn't to off-the-subject. no@h . . . . . . ... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:31:01 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Yvan Vander Sanden Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 21:48 29/01/97 -0500, you wrote: >Dang, yooz a deeeep bruva, G!!! > This could be interesting, but I do not know whtat you mean... Can you explain yourself to foreign English speakers? greetings, Yvan Vander Sanden Technology in Music Education: Post-graduate student at the Lemmens Institute, Leuven Oude markt 31 B-3000 Leuven Belgium Tel. 0032/16/232819 E-mail: yvan.be@glo.be I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:58:15 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Nick Rothwell Subject: Re: arpeggiators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Can anyone suggest (if there is one) a rack mount, arpeggiator? > >No such animal. The Oberheim Cyclone is a freestanding unit. (snerk) Akai made a 1U rackmount arpeggiator of very little brain. I don't remember the name of the unit: MEP-something? Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL contemporary dance projects http://www.cassiel.com music synthesis and control years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:56:59 +0000 Reply-To: cnielsen@earthlink.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: arpeggiators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > > Ten messages in ten minutes, #3 of 10 > > Jon Bennett writes-- > > > >Can anyone suggest (if there is one) a rack mount, arpeggiator? > > No such animal. The Oberheim Cyclone is a freestanding unit. (snerk) > > mike > And test before you buy!! A lot of the older used ones have nasty bugs. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:00:12 +0000 Reply-To: cnielsen@earthlink.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: everything old is new again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: > > 8 of 10... > > Jeff Fried writes-- > >> > > > >Who is FSOL? Is it an acronym or the name of the band/artist? > > FSOL stands for Future Sound Of London, a fairly clever techno duet whose > catalog has been accepted into the bosom of the community with great cries of > ecstasy. It's good stuff, but at this point it seems a bit too concerned > with its own cuttingedgeness. I recommend a spin of their first full- > length CD, _Accelerator,_ if you can find it. "Expander" is the opening > track, and one of the better examples of the techno genre I can think of. > the first 2 tracks on "Dead cities" are intense. If you want to see the most amazing web site around (personal opinion) check ot theirs. Its a long address and I cant recall it offhand, but go into a searc engine and use the words "electronic brain" and you should be able to get to it. -C ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:03:22 +0000 Reply-To: cnielsen@earthlink.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Rodger wrote: > > Hi emusicians, > Verraes wrote: > > > most bands don't > > try to be renovating, original, arty,... > > If the good ones do, is that why it was called house music? ;-) > dont mean to get technical, but house is a slang term for a nightclub or party. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:06:49 +0000 Reply-To: cnielsen@earthlink.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Courtney Nielsen Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nick Rothwell wrote: > > >At 03:55 PM 1/28/97 +0000, you wrote: > >>>:Is Techno a benefit to culture? > >>>Of course it is! > >>>Everything that we do adds to our experience on this spaceship we call > >>>earth. > >> > >>Not every experience is a benefit. > >> > >Techno is. > > I didn't say it wasn't. Please pay attention. > > ok. sorry. my eyes are open now---> O O | ___ (really bad ASCII art copyright 1997) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:24:42 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: William B Fox Subject: Re: Psyco drums? Kenneth Petersen (DEVOTION) asked: > Can anyone give me a good example or a precise description of what > lies behind the term "syncopated drums". I've heard it quite a few In general terms, notes that are syncopated occur on the off beat. To illustrate: the time signature is 4/4 (4 beats per measure and the quarter note gets the beat) and a measure contains an eighth note followed by three quarter notes and finally an eighth note. The last four notes in this measure are said to be syncopated because they occur on the off beats, i.e. not on beats 2, 3, or 4, but after (in between) the beats. A measure having four quarter notes is not syncopated and illustrates notes that occur on the beat. Not knowing the level of Devotion's formal music theory knowledge, I tried to make the above explanation in easy to understand terms without (hopefully) talking down to him. My apologies to anybody who feels patronized. Bill BillFox@lucent.com Host of "Emusic" Thursdays at 11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:48:29 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: The Art Discussion (2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please read "The Art Discussion (1)" first. Peter_Mueller@UCSDLIBRARY.ucsd.edu wrote: > Let's start trying to find out wether something is art or not. The good-bad > part is way too complicated to discuss when we can't agree on the first > part. > > Why don't we start by agreeing that anything anyone > anywhere says is Art (with a capitol A), and once > we've elevated it all to that high status, we can > evaluate it, and we will (note, I did not might) > find some wonderful suprises, and some stuff that's > not so wonderful. You'd probably vote 1) EVERYTHING IS ART > BTW, what do you think of Fluxus? dunno. What do you think of dEUS ("My Sister=My Clock") > Do you like Chance music? dunno. Do you like neoclassicistic (?) experimental improvisations ("Die Anarchistische Abendunterhaltung") > Care for Dada? A little. Care for Channel Zero ? > Did you realize that Picasso painted "La Damoiselle > d'Avignon" (that first proto-cubist of his) because > he thought it would make him famous? I'd love to make good art AND become famous ! > sorry to keep harping on this, but I strongly > beleave that art, though incredibly important, is > also all around us everywhere. Maybe even the chair > you are sitting in is Art (or it could be if you > signed it ala M. Duchamp and a certain urinal). Well, you know how I think... _____________________ Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be _____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:27:54 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Psyco drums? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BC0EF4.74463AE0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dit is een meerdelig bericht in MIME-indeling. ------=_NextPart_000_01BC0EF4.74463AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DEVOTION wrote: > Can anyone give me a good example or a precise description of what lies > behind the > term "syncopated drums". I've heard it quite a few times now (mostly when > the subject > is jungle or drum and bass programming), but noone seems to be > in a position to teach me the secrets of this type of drums or > drumprogramming. > > If anyone has a VERY little midifile that has a syncopated drumloop, I > would be glad to > have it mailed to me. I don't know really how to explain this in English. Syncopation is in fact nothing more than rythms that are not 'on the beat' but in the middle between two beats. There's an example added. _____________________ Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be _____________________ ------=_NextPart_000_01BC0EF4.74463AE0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="Syncopat.mid" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Syncopat.mid (MIDI-sequentie) Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Syncopat.mid" TVRoZAAAAAYAAQADAHhNVHJrAAAAQAD/AiNDb3B5cmlnaHQgqSAxOTk3IGJ5IE1hdGhpYXMgVmVy cmFlcwD/WAQEAhgIAP9ZAgAAAP9RAwknwAD/LwBNVHJrAAAAiwD/IQEAAP8DEFN5bmNvcGF0ZWQg Unl0aG0AmSReOyQAASRedyQAASRhOyQAASRbOyQAASRVdyQAASRbOyQAASReOyQAASRedyQAASRh OyQAASRbOyQAASRVdyQAASRbOyQAh0EkWTskAAEkRXckAAEkW3ckAAEkV3ckAAEkVzskAAEkWTsk AAD/LwBNVHJrAAAA1AD/IQEAAP8DBUhpaGF0AJkqZTsqAAEqWTsqAAEqXTsqAAEqZTsqAAEqXDsq AAEqYzsqAAEqXjsqAAEqYjsqAAEqZTsqAAEqWTsqAAEqXTsqAAEqZTsqAAEqXDsqAAEqYzsqAAEq XjsqAAEqYjsqAIdBKmU7KgABKlk7KgABKl07KgABKmU7KgABKlw7KgABKmM7KgABKl47KgABKmI7 KgABKmU7KgABKlk7KgABKl07KgABKmU7KgABKlw7KgABKmM7KgABKl47KgABKmI7KgAA/y8A ------=_NextPart_000_01BC0EF4.74463AE0-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:33:00 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: The Art Discussion (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Mueller wrote: > Aha! Your making a basic mistake. There is a difference between good and bad > art, but they are both art. Now, if you want to not include in your list of > works of art Music that was created for financial reasons then you are going to > have to disallow most western music throughout history. Haydn, Mozart, Bach, des > Pres, Stravinsky, etc. wrote most of the pieces that they did because they were > paid for it or they hoped it would gain them fame or bucks. Mozart was a very intelligent man, as described in all books about him: he spoke several languages and was very well in maths and science too. He decided not to find a well-paid job but he became a full-time musician and he died POOR ! Of course he wrote popular music to earn money (but some popular music can actually be good !) but if he really tried to become rich, he wouldn't have left the service of the arch-bishop of Salzburg. (I could go on for hours about Mozart, but I'll stop here) > Art will always be something for an elite group. > You don't find that very sad? Yes, I do. That's why I try give people in my environment the possibility to get in touch with art. > But the only way to be a 100% sure wether something is art or not, you > should know everything about the artist, the situation he lives in, the > situation in which he created the piece, what he felt, the ideas he tried > to put in his work,... so it is impossible to be sure about anything. > I think the only way to be sure is to find someone who thinks it is. > In other words you don't agree with the Culture Priests at the Museum > of Modern Art in New York who have, as part of their perminant > collection, works of industrial design, such a car (I think its a > Masarati, but I can't remember), some nicely made chairs, a coke > bottle, etc. > > I do think the perception and creation of Art is one > > of the most valuable things a person can do. > > Here you are right. For me, art is the only thing I live for. > > Everything made by people can be considered art if > you want it to be, or not. Your choice (and > everybody elses). The status of being art or not is > irrelevent. What is important is is it it good > (whatever that means). And you can be sure that > people will think differently about the item in 150 > years. How many people give a damn about Kalkbrenner > any more, or Dusek? I think the main point of discussion is the following : We can either say that 1) EVERYTHING IS ART. If we agree on this one, we can discuss wether something is good art or bad art. 2) or: ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART. This way of seeing things is way more difficult than the first one, but I prefer it because: 1) I have been using it for a long while. 2) Most people I know use it. 3) Most philosophists I read use it. 4) It is "deeper": something can be NOT ART or BAD ART or GOOD ART. 5) There's more fun when you discuss art this way ;-) We can vote for this... My vote is 2) ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART _____________________ Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be _____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:15:35 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: The Art Discussion (3) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please read "The Art Discussion (1) and (2) first. Yvan Vander Sanden wrote: > Wow! I did not expect that much respons. But I've should have known better, > when I re-read my original message, I can imagine it sounds a bit offensive > to a lot of you. It sounded just right to me. > Believe me, this was not my intention. I would like to have > it put more kindly, but I'm not a native speaker and it is not always easy > to put it clear.(to make it sound kindly is even more difficult). Same for me too. > I hope that you all think discussion is interesting, also if ideas are > different. At least, that's what I think. I haven't come to a final > conclusion to this point and I guess this will never happen. You're completely right again. > 1. I didn't say that people are no individuals. It's just that I don't > believe that because we are all individuals, no one can say what is good or > less good (I wont use 'bad' anymore, O.K.?) music. Let's use 'bad' anyway, it's a better word than 'not good'. > If it comes to Bach, I think no one will disagree when I say that his music > is good. We all know about the complexitivity of his music. No one will say > that he's missing the point because he did not use Schoenberg's twelve-tone > system. We put his music in a historical context (style), and every context > (style) has it's own rules. I have experienced that most people would never DARE to say they think Bach is not art, because during the past centuries, everybody said it was art. > I will try to give an other example, but don't shoot me if it is not > completely correct > We cannot define God, but many people have a strong feeling that he exists. > In this particular case it's also very difficult to recognize him. But I > have a strong feeling that the spoon beside me is NOT God. We don't know > what he is, but there are some things that he is probaly not. Damn, this is the example if been looking for my whole life ! > Can't we do the same thing with art? Can't we develop some agreement about > art? Of course, the rules are different for every style, and even for every > piece of music, but this does not mean we can't say something is good art or > less good art because we are all individuals and because we all like > different music. I can't help thinking you'd vote 2) ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART > I agree with Mathias Verraes in another message: > >Something is either GOOD or BAD and you can LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT. > >Wim Mertens is for example a composer who makes art, but I don't like most > >of his music. A techno song can be very good, but if you don't like techno > >at all, you want like that particular song either. > > LIKE IT or DON'T LIKE IT: this is the part we cannot discus, because we're > individuals. > GOOD or BAD: about this we can talk. A good piece of music must have some > qualities. We have to difine other qualifying qualities for every piece of > music, but there are always some guidelines. Voila. > I should not have mentioned my techno-'composition'. I'm not a techno expert > and I'm sure you can do much better than me. It's just that the techno > composers I know are only in it for the money. They make other kinds of > music if they're doing something they really like. But thanks to you, I've > learned that some people DO like it. I had a similar experience. My grandfather had died and I wanted to write a composition for the funeral. First I made something very weird, experimental, but at last I wrote another one: based on Cm Bb Ab G and very simple melodies, which everyone liked very much. I didn't really like it, and first I was ashamed that I played a simple song on his funeral, but then I realized that, since no-one would have liked the first one, playing a more easy-to-understand (?) song was better for my audience and the situation. (I hope you get what I'm trying to say, because I can't put it another way) > This heavy criticism was adressed towards the techno-composers as I know > them, and also towards the ones Mathias Verraes seems to know them. (Maybe > they are REALLY different in Belgium?) If you people are truly dedicated to > it, then I'm sure there is some valuable music in it. As I said, a lot of techno sucks, but some techno composers make art. > I do not know what it takes to become a music educator in the U.S. Here, > there are different levels, I have studied to teach students at > university-level. If you wonder what I teach my students: I do not 'teach' > them anything. I just pose my oppinion (sometimes a bit controverse) and > then I want them to think about it and formulate their ideas. I don't mind > if they not agree with me, but the subjects I try to discuss are to > important to have no idea at all about it. (As a matter of fact, I think I'm > going to use thougths from this discussion in my class.) I used some of your writing to show my friends and it got our discussion about art a step ahead. > I did not post an introduction to this list. I shall try to do it now. So will I. > If you all think I do not belong on > this list, just let me know. You do belong here. > I also maintain a web-site for the association for Flemish Music Educators. > Please visit at: http://titan.glo.be/~gd31185/mvo/frames/ I went there, but I didn't manage to download some of your music. Could you mail some stuff at my own adress ? thnx _____________________ Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be _____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:32:45 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Radio Croatia Petition Comments: To: Emmanuel Vercruysse , Gerrit Deleu , Matthias Deleu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Dear Friends of Art and Technology, > >Peace! Please help save Radio 101 in Zagreb, Croatia from being >canceled!!! > >Just add your name to the list and send the message to everyone you > know. This message is brought to you by the letter "H" (for HELP) and >the number "1,000,000" (for the number of names we want to sign). > >This is a petition to save Radio 101 in Zagreb, Croatia. ALL YOU DO > IS ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST AT THE BOTTOM, then forward it to everyone >you >know. > >If you have any reservations about signing this, please first view the >wonderful KidCast For Peace web site created by the Children of Croatia; >http://www.hrvatska.com/kidcast/index.html. > >Your signature will help insure that the right for creative expression is >upheld globally. >>>>>> >>>>>>---------------------FWD-------------------------------- > > Croatian "democracy" goverment believes that this radio station is >dealing against state, while this is the ONLY station left which > is dealing with democracy information in Croatia! > > Please add your name to this list if you believe in what we stand > for. This list will be forwarded to the Goverment of the Republic >Croatia! > > If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this > petition, please forward to: >>>>>> >>>>>> root@r101.com.hr and >>>>>> www-admin@vlada.hr >>>>>> >>>>>> This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. >>>>>> > > Please forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep >this radio station ALIVE!. > > Thank you. > >>>>>> SIGNATURES >>>>>> 1. Drago Markovic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>> 2. Sanda Petris, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>> 3. Antun Sunjic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>> 4. Maja Dawidowsky, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>> 5. Maja Vickovic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>> 6. Vladimir Vuksan, Albuquerque, USA >>>>>> 7. Bruno Scap, Chico, USA >>>>>> 8. Bruno Ancic,Zagreb,Croatia >>>>>> 9. Lovro Seder, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>10.Nikola Fox, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>12. Neven Jacmenovic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>13. Daniel Kasaj, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>14. Koraljka Haberle, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>15. Darko Bunic, Koprivnica, Croatia >>>>>>16. Lidija Kesak, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>17. Robert Petracic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>18. Renata Marusic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>19. Mirana Koljatic, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>20. Rima Venturin, Skjetten, Norway >>>>>>21. Dario Filjar, Athlone, Ireland >>>>>>22. Alan Skarica, Zagreb, >>>>>>22. Alan Skarica, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>23. Dario Mavric, Sisak, Croatia >>>>>>24. Drazen Stolar, Osijek, Croatia >>>>>>25. Alan Jobst, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>26. Maja Cepak, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>27. Eta Paro Crnosija, Zagreb, Croatia >>>>>>28. Maja Veldt-Poklepovic, Amsterdam, Nederland >>>>>>29. Piet Veldt, Amsterdam, Nederland >>>>>>30. Zvonimir Bakotin, Amsterdam, Nederland >>>>>>31. Paul Garrin, NYC, USA >>>>>>32. Johnny Temple, NYC >>>>>>33. Dolf Hermannstaedter, Augsburg, Germany >>>>>>34. Berry Evers, Amsterdam, Holland >>>>>>35. Jerry Goossens, Utrecht, Holland >>>>>>36. Linda Lindmark, Goteborg, Sweden >>>>>>37. Jesper Lundqvist, Umeo, Sweden >>>>>>38. Fredrik Norberg, V=A6xj=D6, Sweden >>>>>>39. Elisabet Wahl, V=A6xj=D6, Sweden. >>>>>>40. Gabriella Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>41. Bibbi Johansson, Stockholm,Sweden >>>>>>42. Susanne Wixe, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>43. Claes Leo Lindwall, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>44. Lena Nilsson, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>45. Jonas Cohen, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>46. Bjorn Nyblom, Stockholm, Sweden >>>>>>47. Per Schlingmann, Sweden >>>>>>48. Jonas Palmqvist, Sweden >>>>>>49. Jonas Hjelm, Sweden >>>>>> >>>>>>50. Robert Magnusson, Sweden >>>>>>51. Elisabet Limmerg-rd, Lund, Sweden >>>>>>52. Cecilia Widegren, Lundsbrunn, Sweden >>>>>>53. Rolf K Nilsson, H+rn+sand, Sweden >>>>>>54. Maria L. Ekstrand, San Francisco CA USA >>>>>>55. Francis R. Abueg, Palo Alto CA USA >>>>>>56. Michael Acree, San Francisco, CA, USA >>>>>>57. Dori Dysland, Silver Spring, MD, USA >>>>>>58. David A. Jones Portland OR. America >>>>>>59. Sonja Straub, Portland, OR. USA >>>>>>60. Lily Vassiliou, Portland, OR, USA >>>>>>61. Stan Siver, Port Townsend, WA, USA >>>>>>62. Paul McIsaac, New York, NY, USA >>>>>>63. John Douglas, Charlotte, VT,USA >>>>>>64. Jon Leland, Mill Valley, CA, USA >>>>>>65. Peter H. Rosen, San Francisco, CA USA >>>>>>66. Laura-Doe Harris, Mullumbimby, NSW Australia >>>>>>67. Barbara Carrellas, New York, NY, USA >>>>>>68. Chester Mainard, San Francisco, CA USA >>>>>69. Keith Hennessy, San Francisco, CA USA >>>>70. Dianne Monroe, Atlanta, GA USA >>>>71. David Reiffel, Boston, MA USA >>>>72. Mary-Ann Greanier, Plainville, MA USA >>73.sam auinger,linz,austria >>74. chris salter, San Francisco, CA USA >>75. laura farabough >>76. Morgan Jenness, New York, NY >>78. Randy Gener, New York City, NY >>79. Tom Robinson, London, UK 80. David Holloway, Australia 81. Mathias Verraes, Belgium ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 21:30:29 +0100 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Verraes Subject: Re: Is Techno a benefit to culture? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Rodger wrote: > Hi emusicians, > Verraes wrote: > > > most bands don't > > try to be renovating, original, arty,... > > If the good ones do, is that why it was called house music? ;-) lol _____________________ Mathias Verraes eat.my.shorts@glo.be _____________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:07:01 -0800 Reply-To: skellly@iserv.net Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Steven Kelly Subject: thanks for ambient music tips MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to everybody who gave some good names to look for... -- Steven Kelly ever onward skelly@iserv.net http://www.iserv.net/~skelly ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:20:23 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Zenon M. Feszczak" Subject: Re: Techno In-Reply-To: <199701301911.LAA07205@luminous.ictv.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 14:11 -0500 30.01.97, you wrote: >I'm not even sure if I _have_ any techno. > >Is "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" techno? More like experimental ethno-funk, courtesy of Eno and Byrne, not to mention the watchful eye of Bill Laswell. The early use of found-vocal sampling and emphasis on various ethnic percussion loops definitely mark this record as a strong influence on the ambient (and ambient techno) scene. Zenon M. Feszczak Ambientologist ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:23:33 +0000 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Paul Watson Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion =[][][]=========<{O}>=========[][][]= > > From: Yvan Vander Sanden > > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > > Subject: Re: The Techno Discussion > > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 5:42 PM > > 1. I didn't say that people are no individuals. It's just that I don't > > believe that because we are all individuals, no one can say what is good > or > > less good (I wont use 'bad' anymore, O.K.?) music. The > composition-teacher > > was just an example to show you that it is possible to say something > > meaningfull about someone's music, even if you don't like the style. This > > does not mean that there aren't people who didn't study music can't talk > > sense about music. I know some of them I have a lot of respect towards > them. > > It is even more difficult if you have to find out everything yourself. > > And yes, there are a lot of musicians with a degree that criticise music > in > > an unreasonable way. What I defenitly do not like are people saying > > something like this: > > > > 'Yes, I like this piece and I do not now why, but it's good because I > like > > it. And this piece is bad because I don't like it. Don't start a > discussion > > about this. Every individual is different and therefore, you can not know > > what is good or bad.' WOW, guys!!!! Some great dialogue taking place. An art in itself. Don't know if you chaps are into the syncronicity of things in life but on the TV news last night there was a piece about Princess Di auctioning off part of her glamorous clothing collection for charity. One designer piece cost her six thousand pounds! A piece of cloth for six thousand pounds! Pass me the sewing machine. I'm feeling creative. Now, I ask you, ain't that the true art? Being able to convince a lot of people art is truely worth something .... :-) Paul Watson PIW554@dockyard.co.nz New Zealand Art "is" convincing.... and taken far too seriously between consenting adults. ||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><||><|| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:04:18 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Techno In-Reply-To: <199701301911.LAA07205@luminous.ictv.com> from "Marshall Otwell" at Jan 30, 97 11:11:12 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marshall Otwell writes-- > >I'm not even sure if I _have_ any techno. > >Is "My Life in the Bush of Ghosts" techno? Yaaagh! [sound of perspective being wrenched violently to the left] Um, no. It's a classic, brilliant album, but it's not techno... it predates the genre by a couple of years. At the time, it was unique in a lot of ways, but today we would probably classify it as ambient house. I guess. "Jezebel! Spirit of destruction, spirit of greed... I BANG YE WITH CHAINS OF IRON!!" Brilliant stuff. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:11:40 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: arpeggiators In-Reply-To: <32F09A99.56EF@earthlink.net> from "Courtney Nielsen" at Jan 30, 97 12:56:59 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Courtney Nielsen writes-- > >Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: >> >> Jon Bennett writes-- >> > >> >Can anyone suggest (if there is one) a rack mount, arpeggiator? >> >> No such animal. The Oberheim Cyclone is a freestanding unit. (snerk) > >And test before you buy!! A lot of the older used ones have nasty bugs. It has nothing to do with age or used status, and everything to do with software rev. Version 1.0 is highly unstable (it's the only MIDI device that crashes if you feed it its own SysEx codes). rev 1.2, which is what current Cyclones have, is much better, but still not superstable. At one time, five or six of the Team had them; I think I'm the only one who still has his, except maybe John3. They're just too weird to work with. I actually had a long discussion with Dave Amels once about the problems and pitfalls of trying to design a standalone arpeggiator. I think I scared his company away from even trying it, which is sort of a pity, in hindsight. The problem is that when you're talking about an electronic keyboard, putting in an arpeggiator is actually pretty easy because the vast majority of what you need to make it work is already in the box anyway, and all you need is a few extra buttons and some code. But to build a useful MIDI arpeggiator that stands alone is a very tricky proposition. I should see if I have that letter saved anywhere. I talked about a lot of considerations one needed to plan for in building an arpeggiator. In retrospect, the cyclone's amazing even at its current level of operability. mike ps. Nick, that Akai rack gizmo (ME25?) was an incredibly braindead box. it actually wasn't an arpeggiator at all, but more of a MIDI phrase recorder. You couldn't sync it to anything, and it was very hard to use. That's why they turn up in pawnshops for next to nothing these days. -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:16:18 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: Radio & Live Emusic Shows In-Reply-To: <9701301911.AA15484@acropolis> from "William B Fox" at Jan 30, 97 02:11:22 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William B Fox writes-- > >Tonight on EMUSIC: >------------------ >On tonight's show, I will feature two emerging artists, Bill Forcier and >Dennis Haley. They will also be performing in Philadelphia this Saturday Heh. Bill's been 'emerging' for a long time... he was on the Synkronos sampler cassette FACETS with me, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth. :) Wish him luck... his track on the cassette was one of the better ones. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:27:45 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Brian Good Subject: Re: everything old is new again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Metlay writes: > >Eric Harnden writes-- >> >>i was thinking recently about the emusician's fetish for finding ever >>new sounds, motifs, jangly bits, etc. it occurred to me that we are >>too enmeshed in the postmodern sensibility, which is caught in a >>spiral of edgy over-inventivess, in which the demand for >>"freshness" requires both ever-finer-and-more-shallow distinctions >>among froms, and excesses of destructive force to push the evolving >>(or rather crashing) esthetic. >> but even with >>the mosty limited palette, the most conventional sonic "gestures", i >>still think there's a lot of subtlety and meaning to be found. >>time to get to work, don't you think? > >It's been 'time to get to work' for over a decade, and the people who >do so generally find their work ignored in favor of the new'n'weirdish. Not quite. The genuinely "new'n'weirdish" is lamentably rare. Pop culture, and emusic pop culture especially, is replete with posturing composeurs, emitting sodden, cliche-laden throwaway, all the while trumpetting to all how cutting edge they are. The genre would be far more interesting if even one percent of those who loudly proclaim their music to be experimental actually produced such. Brian Good W: bgood@sundagger.lerc.nasa.gov H: bgood@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 16:54:10 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Mark D. Camp" Subject: Re: FSOL Comments: To: Deckard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Don't want to bog the list with unlisty discussion, but... > >> FSOL stands for Future Sound Of London, a fairly clever techno duet whose >> catalog has been accepted into the bosom of the community with great cries of >> ecstasy. It's good stuff, but at this point it seems a bit too concerned >> with its own cuttingedgeness. > > Definitely. The new Dead Cities demonstrates a variety of musical > styles and talents, but is not at all indicative of how well they > can compose evocative, colorful sound compositions. > I think either of the Lifeform releases (LP, EP) do it much > better. Incidently, the Lifeforms EP features Liz Frasure, the > vocalist from the Cocteau Twins. > >> I recommend a spin of their first full- >> length CD, _Accelerator,_ if you can find it. "Expander" is the opening >> track, and one of the better examples of the techno genre I can think of. > > Really? I think this one's entirely too dated sounding, with the >one exception of the song "Papua New Guinea." Accelerator has some >cheesey sampling work ("it's not my problem"..."we are the future") >sprinkled here and there. "Calcium" is another good'n, though. > In 1993, FSOL released the Cascade EP, which promissed an entirely >new method of fusing the "real" with the "synthetic." Their technique was >refined with the Lifeforms album and the ensuing EP. Their monumental >"live" album, ISDN, is a compilation of tracks from on ongoing series of >live ISDN broadcasts which FSOL occasionally transmits directly from their >studio just outside London. Come to think of it, they did one about 2 >weeks ago, i believe. Anyone with RealAudio can listen. >Hope this isn't to off-the-subject. > > no@h Also not to be missed is FSOL's remix of David Sylvian's "Darshan" -M *______________*______________* !E.A.C! Astronout 408 SpaceLounge Electronic Artists Collective ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:06:26 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Michael Millard Subject: Re: arpeggiators MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City wrote: >. rev 1.2, which is what > current Cyclones have, is much better, but still not superstable. At > one time, five or six of the Team had them; I think I'm the only one > who > still has his, except maybe John3. They're just too weird to work > with. > So is the Cyclone still available new? What sorts of prices are they going for? Is it weird enough to be useless in real life? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:39:45 EST Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: William B Fox Subject: EMUSIC Playlist Playlist for "EMUSIC" on WDIY-FM, Allentown 88.1 FM in Allentown/Bethleham and 93.9 FM in Easton/Phillipsburg Show #2 January 30, 1997 Host: Bill Fox ARTIST TRACK ALBUM (label) ----------------------- ----------------------- ------------------------------- 11:00 pm Dennis Haley The Shard Electronic Music Project Bill Forcier Infrastructure Unreleased tape Dennis Haley Introspective Seven Seconds After(Synesthesia) Bill Forcier Dayspring Unreleased tape Dennis Haley The Trinket Seven Seconds After(Synesthesia) Fingerpaint Enormous Expansion EnormousSwirlingSound (FNGP) 12:00 am Bionaut Moby on Thursday Au Naturel (TinyBubbleMusic) S.Roach,S.Kent,K.Newby Halcyon Days Halcyon Days (Fathom) Vidna Obmana The Feather Cycle The Spiritual Bonding (Extreme) Thom Brennan The Path Not Taken Time Amplexus Comp.(Amplexus/Projekt) Al Gromer Khan The Wayfarer Space Hotel (New Earth Records) Ray Guillette Mobius III The Throne of Drones (Sombient) Gina Balducci The City Creek Waterbase 1:00 am Sign off ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:33:56 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: SINBYTE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: The Art Discussion (1) In a message dated 97-01-30 17:16:20 EST, you write: << I think the main point of discussion is the following : We can either say that 1) EVERYTHING IS ART. If we agree on this one, we can discuss wether something is good art or bad art. 2) or: ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART. This way of seeing things is way more difficult than the first one, but I prefer it because: 1) I have been using it for a long while. 2) Most people I know use it. 3) Most philosophists I read use it. 4) It is "deeper": something can be NOT ART or BAD ART or GOOD ART. 5) There's more fun when you discuss art this way ;-) We can vote for this... My vote is 2) ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART >> NOTHING IS ART. EVERYTHING IS A RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. A CHEMICAL, ELECTRICAL RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. YOU DECIDE THE ORIGIN OF THE ARTISTIC CREATIVITY(the stimuli) AND THEN YOU REACT IN THE APPROPRIATE MEDIUM(response). I AM NOT AN EXPERT, NOR INTELLECT, NOR PHILOSIPHER, NOT MUSICIAN, OR PAINTER, OR PHOTOGRAPHER, I AM ME. I HAVE DECIDED THAT: ART IS A RESPONSE OPEN EARS, SINBYTE ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:32:44 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: everything old is new again In-Reply-To: from "Brian Good" at Jan 30, 97 04:27:45 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Good writes-- >> >>It's been 'time to get to work' for over a decade, and the people who >>do so generally find their work ignored in favor of the new'n'weirdish. > >Not quite. The genuinely "new'n'weirdish" is lamentably rare. Pop culture, >and emusic pop culture especially, is replete with posturing composeurs, >emitting sodden, cliche-laden throwaway, all the while trumpetting to >all how cutting edge they are. The genre would be far more interesting >if even one percent of those who loudly proclaim their music to be >experimental actually produced such. I'll agree with this if it's understood that by "new'n'weirdish" I was referring to stuff that the audience may not have heard before. Keep in mind that it's the business of the MI industry to keep on packaging the new'n'weirdish into forms easily used by "composeurs" (GOOD ONE!!) and digested by audiences. Consider the booming business in sound-effect and noise-loop sample CDs, for instance, or the market-driven creation of the Planet Phatt as a followup to the Orbit. For an example of the truly alternative, people in the Bay Area should keep an ear open for the Xpandathons, a series of concerts by a group of Xpander users who go out on stage and play their Xpanders directly from the front panel, with NO input devices at all. What comes out, as with the stuff *I* do when I want to get really different, tends to shock and surprise.. and not everyone wants their minds opened. They may say they do, but true insight can be quite frightening. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:34:02 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: "Robert M. Sanders" Subject: Re: Art Discussion Verraes writes: < I had a similar experience. My grandfather had died and I wanted to write a composition for the funeral. First I made something very weird, experimental, but at last I wrote another one: based on Cm Bb Ab G and very simple melodies, which everyone liked very much. I didn't really like it, and first I was ashamed that I played a simple song on his funeral, but then I realized that, since no-one would have liked the first one, playing a more easy-to-understand (?) song was better for my audience and the situation. (I hope you get what I'm trying to say, because I can't put it another way) < Thanks for sharing this profound story. By the way, what ever happened to the first song? I think it's very hard to detach one's ego from the creative process long enough to identify what's best for the moment and situation as opposed to what's best for feeding one's own personal ego. I'll now share with you my funeral music story for what it's worth. My aunt "Tootsie" was a poor woman married to a butcher/baptist preacher in Arkansas. She loved to play and sing that Mountain Opry Gospel music. She was a very funny, good hearted soul, and I was her favorite nephew. Well, one day she had a severe stroke that paralized her left side and denying her the ability to play piano. It was a long gruesome downhill slide from there. By the end, months later, when she died, she was basically comatose. So I go to her funeral. The church is located out in the backwoods of Arkansas, and the upright piano was abismally bad. The kind with broken strings and sticking keys. The kind with the broken sustain pedal that fails to dampen the strings and which had not held tuning in twenty or thirty years. They decided to bring in a better upright from somebody's home. We hauled it through the backwoods country roads in the bed of a rickety pickup truck that was missing it's gas tank lid. My cousin used an old rag to stop up the gas tank. The truck was like a giant Molatoff cocktail. Well, I was in the truckbed with three of my cousins. While they held the piano, I played the blues. We were going pretty fast and I remember the wind blowing past my face, neck and arms. It was an elated experience- Speeding through the green forests, over creeks and hills, past country houses; the blues mixing with the changing of the gears and the squeaking of the brakes. I remember the smiles on my cousin's faces as we experienced this strange moment taking this borrowed piano to their mother's funeral. But, the suspension in the truck wasn't quite good enough to dampen out all of the potholes. At one point the piano suddenly shifted, faster than we could all grab it. It toppled over making a loud banging noise, but luckily it did not fall out of the truck. We all told Timmy to slow down. Once at the funeral, I didn't know what to play. I just sat their improvising and crying and overwhelmed by grief as people walked in. We all did music. Song after song with tears in our eyes. Stuff like "Amazing Grace" and "I'll Fly Away Old Glory". It's what she wanted. Somehow the quality of the piano and the acoustics of the small church and the skill and cleverness of the musicians didn't mean a danmed thing. It was all about sharing an experience. In the end, I don't think "art" is essential. People will have meaning in their lives without art. For art to have value it must, at least, not get in the way; it must not impede people from touching the meaning in their own individual lives. At best, it can coexist with and perhaps occasionally enhance the lives of people. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:43:07 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re FSOL... and possibly a new flamethread Comments: To: njurcin@orion.it.luc.edu In-Reply-To: from "Deckard" at Jan 30, 97 01:57:00 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Deckard writes-- > > Don't want to bog the list with unlisty discussion, but... We're still discussing the music, so hey. >> I recommend a spin of their first full- >> length CD, _Accelerator,_ if you can find it. "Expander" is the opening >> track, and one of the better examples of the techno genre I can think of. > > Really? I think this one's entirely too dated sounding, with the >one exception of the song "Papua New Guinea." Accelerator has some >cheesey sampling work ("it's not my problem"..."we are the future") >sprinkled here and there. "Calcium" is another good'n, though. I must disagree. "Papua New Guinea" is a famous song, but I actually think it stands the test of time less well than "Expander," which contains none of the cheesy samples you mention. > In 1993, FSOL released the Cascade EP, which promissed an entirely >new method of fusing the "real" with the "synthetic." Their technique was >refined with the Lifeforms album and the ensuing EP. Have all three...must confess I find them almost unlistenable. Will probably sell them at some point, or trade for the "Expander" EP. :) They are, to my ears, an example of what Brian and I were discussing-- farting around with cool new sounds for the sake of newness/coolness. Which tracks should I try out on their own, if any? The Fripp stuff? >Their monumental >"live" album, ISDN, is a compilation of tracks from on ongoing series of >live ISDN broadcasts which FSOL occasionally transmits directly from their >studio just outside London. Come to think of it, they did one about 2 >weeks ago, i believe. Anyone with RealAudio can listen. "Monomental"? I'm very curious as to what you find monumental about either version of ISDN (I have both), other than the use of technology and the song titles (which are dead brilliant). There are moments when it all clicks, but most of it is just noodling around. I'm a big believer in noodling around; it's a lot of fun live, for the audience as well as the performers, but I'm hesitant to commit it to permanent record offhandedly. Ooooh, THERE'S a topic for the list... is it okay to produce music for live performance with the understanding that its interest may be ephemeral, because its EXISTENCE is ephemeral, or must everything be created with the aim of being listened to forever? mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:32:16 -0600 Reply-To: Deckard Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Deckard Subject: Re: Re FSOL... and possibly a new flamethread In-Reply-To: <199701311743.JAA14813@netcom23.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > We're still discussing the music, so hey. > > In 1993, FSOL released the Cascade EP, which promissed an entirely > >new method of fusing the "real" with the "synthetic." Their technique was > >refined with the Lifeforms album and the ensuing EP. > Have all three...must confess I find them almost unlistenable. Will > probably sell them at some point, or trade for the "Expander" EP. :) > They are, to my ears, an example of what Brian and I were discussing-- > farting around with cool new sounds for the sake of newness/coolness. > Which tracks should I try out on their own, if any? The Fripp stuff? Don't bother hunting down the Expander EP. I've got it and even though there's a couple pictures of Gary and Brian, all the music on it is included with any of the several re-issues of Accelerator.... The remixes aren't really all that different from the originals. As far as trying to be cool, FSOL is the first band that i know of who consistently did live sets over the internet with guest musicians. Sure the music wasn't always cutting edge, but it was certainly "listenable"...and pretty cool, conceptually. Hmmm, the Lifeforms EP unlistenable, eh? Did you ever listen to the Cocteau Twins? Personally, i think Liz Frasure is a master of weaving melodies with layers of her own voice. And the electronic context that FSOL created for her voice on the EP was an entirely new sound to these ears when it came out. Someone must have liked it, otherwise they wouldn't be tossing about the idea of doing the same thing with Lisa Gerrard of Dead Can Dance.... The Fripp stuff is pretty good, but in multiple interviews FSOL were complaining about how "linear" Fripp sounded and that they had to "edit him to hell." The finished product is colorful, though. no@h . . . . . . ... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:31:59 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MJ Subject: Re: Yvan Vander Sanden: Please Stay On This List! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ...the crowd cheers... Yvan Vander Sanden gets the invitation to stay on the list. The anxiety is killing me... does he stay? Does he go? He's an educator, he teaches. My father always said, "Those who can DO, those who can't.................." MJ ---------- > From: Robert M. Sanders > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Yvan Vander Sanden: Please Stay On This List! > Date: Wednesday, January 29, 1997 9:39 PM > > Yvan wrote: > < > If you all think I do not belong on this list, just let me know. > < > Yvan: > > I value your contributions to this list. Even when I vehemently disagree. > > The interchange will of course be futile if CONSENSUS is the goal, but if > the goal is to stimulate everyone into revisiting and refining their own > opinion, whether on what is art, techno, good, bad, etc., then your > presence is appreciated by at least me. > > Not being English, I hope my next thought doesn't offend anyone. I see > this list as kind of like that noisy English House of Commons. Better to > speak up and spark controversy. > > The worst is when nobody has anything to post. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: MJ Subject: Re: everything old is new again MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't you people ever make any damn music? ---------- > From: Brian Good > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU > Subject: Re: everything old is new again > Date: Thursday, January 30, 1997 7:27 PM > > Metlay writes: > > > >Eric Harnden writes-- > >> > >>i was thinking recently about the emusician's fetish for finding ever > >>new sounds, motifs, jangly bits, etc. it occurred to me that we are > >>too enmeshed in the postmodern sensibility, which is caught in a > >>spiral of edgy over-inventivess, in which the demand for > >>"freshness" requires both ever-finer-and-more-shallow distinctions > >>among froms, and excesses of destructive force to push the evolving > >>(or rather crashing) esthetic. > > > > >> but even with > >>the mosty limited palette, the most conventional sonic "gestures", i > >>still think there's a lot of subtlety and meaning to be found. > >>time to get to work, don't you think? > > > >It's been 'time to get to work' for over a decade, and the people who > >do so generally find their work ignored in favor of the new'n'weirdish. > > Not quite. The genuinely "new'n'weirdish" is lamentably rare. Pop culture, > and emusic pop culture especially, is replete with posturing composeurs, > emitting sodden, cliche-laden throwaway, all the while trumpetting to > all how cutting edge they are. The genre would be far more interesting > if even one percent of those who loudly proclaim their music to be > experimental actually produced such. > > > Brian Good > W: bgood@sundagger.lerc.nasa.gov > H: bgood@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:37:07 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: Radio Croatia Petition In-Reply-To: <199701302141.WAA18201@phobos.glo.be> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Verraes wrote: > >Dear Friends of Art and Technology, > > > >Peace! Please help save Radio 101 in Zagreb, Croatia from being > >canceled!!! > > > >Just add your name to the list and send the message to everyone you > > know. This message is brought to you by the letter "H" (for HELP) and > >the number "1,000,000" (for the number of names we want to sign). > > > >This is a petition to save Radio 101 in Zagreb, Croatia. ALL YOU DO > > IS ADD YOUR NAME TO THE LIST AT THE BOTTOM, then forward it to everyone > >you > >know. > > > >If you have any reservations about signing this, please first view the > >wonderful KidCast For Peace web site created by the Children of Croatia; > >http://www.hrvatska.com/kidcast/index.html. > > > >Your signature will help insure that the right for creative expression is > >upheld globally. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>---------------------FWD-------------------------------- > > > > Croatian "democracy" goverment believes that this radio station is > >dealing against state, while this is the ONLY station left which > > is dealing with democracy information in Croatia! > > > > Please add your name to this list if you believe in what we stand > > for. This list will be forwarded to the Goverment of the Republic > >Croatia! > > > > If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this > > petition, please forward to: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> root@r101.com.hr and > >>>>>> www-admin@vlada.hr > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them. > >>>>>> > > > > Please forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep > >this radio station ALIVE!. > > > > Thank you. > > > >>>>>> SIGNATURES > >>>>>> 1. Drago Markovic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>> 2. Sanda Petris, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>> 3. Antun Sunjic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>> 4. Maja Dawidowsky, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>> 5. Maja Vickovic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>> 6. Vladimir Vuksan, Albuquerque, USA > >>>>>> 7. Bruno Scap, Chico, USA > >>>>>> 8. Bruno Ancic,Zagreb,Croatia > >>>>>> 9. Lovro Seder, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>10.Nikola Fox, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>12. Neven Jacmenovic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>13. Daniel Kasaj, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>14. Koraljka Haberle, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>15. Darko Bunic, Koprivnica, Croatia > >>>>>>16. Lidija Kesak, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>17. Robert Petracic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>18. Renata Marusic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>19. Mirana Koljatic, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>20. Rima Venturin, Skjetten, Norway > >>>>>>21. Dario Filjar, Athlone, Ireland > >>>>>>22. Alan Skarica, Zagreb, > >>>>>>22. Alan Skarica, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>23. Dario Mavric, Sisak, Croatia > >>>>>>24. Drazen Stolar, Osijek, Croatia > >>>>>>25. Alan Jobst, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>26. Maja Cepak, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>27. Eta Paro Crnosija, Zagreb, Croatia > >>>>>>28. Maja Veldt-Poklepovic, Amsterdam, Nederland > >>>>>>29. Piet Veldt, Amsterdam, Nederland > >>>>>>30. Zvonimir Bakotin, Amsterdam, Nederland > >>>>>>31. Paul Garrin, NYC, USA > >>>>>>32. Johnny Temple, NYC > >>>>>>33. Dolf Hermannstaedter, Augsburg, Germany > >>>>>>34. Berry Evers, Amsterdam, Holland > >>>>>>35. Jerry Goossens, Utrecht, Holland > >>>>>>36. Linda Lindmark, Goteborg, Sweden > >>>>>>37. Jesper Lundqvist, Umeo, Sweden > >>>>>>38. Fredrik Norberg, V=A6xj=D6, Sweden > >>>>>>39. Elisabet Wahl, V=A6xj=D6, Sweden. > >>>>>>40. Gabriella Stenberg, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>41. Bibbi Johansson, Stockholm,Sweden > >>>>>>42. Susanne Wixe, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>43. Claes Leo Lindwall, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>44. Lena Nilsson, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>45. Jonas Cohen, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>46. Bjorn Nyblom, Stockholm, Sweden > >>>>>>47. Per Schlingmann, Sweden > >>>>>>48. Jonas Palmqvist, Sweden > >>>>>>49. Jonas Hjelm, Sweden > >>>>>> > >>>>>>50. Robert Magnusson, Sweden > >>>>>>51. Elisabet Limmerg-rd, Lund, Sweden > >>>>>>52. Cecilia Widegren, Lundsbrunn, Sweden > >>>>>>53. Rolf K Nilsson, H+rn+sand, Sweden > >>>>>>54. Maria L. Ekstrand, San Francisco CA USA > >>>>>>55. Francis R. Abueg, Palo Alto CA USA > >>>>>>56. Michael Acree, San Francisco, CA, USA > >>>>>>57. Dori Dysland, Silver Spring, MD, USA > >>>>>>58. David A. Jones Portland OR. America > >>>>>>59. Sonja Straub, Portland, OR. USA > >>>>>>60. Lily Vassiliou, Portland, OR, USA > >>>>>>61. Stan Siver, Port Townsend, WA, USA > >>>>>>62. Paul McIsaac, New York, NY, USA > >>>>>>63. John Douglas, Charlotte, VT,USA > >>>>>>64. Jon Leland, Mill Valley, CA, USA > >>>>>>65. Peter H. Rosen, San Francisco, CA USA > >>>>>>66. Laura-Doe Harris, Mullumbimby, NSW Australia > >>>>>>67. Barbara Carrellas, New York, NY, USA > >>>>>>68. Chester Mainard, San Francisco, CA USA > >>>>>69. Keith Hennessy, San Francisco, CA USA > >>>>70. Dianne Monroe, Atlanta, GA USA > >>>>71. David Reiffel, Boston, MA USA > >>>>72. Mary-Ann Greanier, Plainville, MA USA > >>73.sam auinger,linz,austria > >>74. chris salter, San Francisco, CA USA > >>75. laura farabough > >>76. Morgan Jenness, New York, NY > >>78. Randy Gener, New York City, NY > >>79. Tom Robinson, London, UK > 80. David Holloway, Australia > 81. Mathias Verraes, Belgium > 82. Corey H Maass, NYC ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 15:15:39 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Corey H Maass Subject: Re: everything old is new again Comments: To: jefff@dgii.com In-Reply-To: <32EEBC50.63F8@dgii.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FSOL is Future Sound(s) of London. also known as amorpheous androgenous. trip-hop corey On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Jeff Fried wrote: > Deckard wrote: > > > > Interesting points you have here, but just out of curiosity, which > > FSOL song was it that you noticed this? Was it "Eggshell" (#7, disc 2) on > > Lifeforms? The melody always reminds me of a more optimistic "Welcome to > > the Machine." > > > > no@h > > . . . . . . ... > > Who is FSOL? Is it an acronym or the name of the band/artist? > > -- Thanks, > > -- Jeff. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 13:34:51 -0800 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City Subject: Re: arpeggiators In-Reply-To: <32F20A72.185@voy.net> from "Michael Millard" at Jan 31, 97 10:06:26 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Millard writes-- >> >So is the Cyclone still available new? What sorts of prices are they >going for? Is it weird enough to be useless in real life? I think they're still being sold. $199?. No, but if you do a lot of fancy programming on it, remember that you can't save patches to MIDI and don't be too sad if it crashes and loses what you've done. I mainly work with it by tweaking the 16 presets, some of which are very powerful, in ways that I can easily redo by hand if need be. mike -- mike metlay * atomic city | = atomic@netcom.com = | NEWS FROM ATOMIC CITY: John 0 welcomes 1997.... info line: 1-800-924-atom | cd orders--> po box 81175 | "Hey, it's been five years, right? pittsburgh, pa 15217-0675 | Silence ends." or via the worldwide web: | http://pd.net/atomic-city | or phone _lofty pursuits_ | (Be afraid. Be *very* afraid.) toll free: 1-800-548-6724 | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 19:37:52 -0500 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Terry Leigh Britton Subject: Re: The Art Discussion (1) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SINBYTE@AOL.COM wrote: > > In a message dated 97-01-30 17:16:20 EST, you write: > > << I think the main point of discussion is the following : > > We can either say that > 1) EVERYTHING IS ART. If we agree on this one, we can discuss wether > something is good art or bad art. > 2) or: ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART. This way of seeing things is way > more > difficult than the first one, but I prefer it because: > 1) I have been using it for a long while. > 2) Most people I know use it. > 3) Most philosophists I read use it. > 4) It is "deeper": something can be NOT ART or BAD ART or GOOD ART. > 5) There's more fun when you discuss art this way ;-) > > We can vote for this... > My vote is 2) ONLY SOME THINGS ARE ART > >> > > NOTHING IS ART. EVERYTHING IS A RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. A CHEMICAL, > ELECTRICAL RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. YOU DECIDE THE ORIGIN OF THE ARTISTIC > CREATIVITY(the stimuli) AND THEN YOU REACT IN THE APPROPRIATE > MEDIUM(response). I AM NOT AN EXPERT, NOR INTELLECT, NOR PHILOSIPHER, NOT > MUSICIAN, OR PAINTER, OR PHOTOGRAPHER, I AM ME. I HAVE DECIDED THAT: > > ART > IS > A > RESPONSE > > OPEN EARS, > SINBYTE Well, Sinbyte, if it was all that simple, then not only would amoebae and protozoan creatures be impressively artistic, but you would have to say that every cell in your body was involved in its own little art-world. As a highly-developed organism, we have the element of cooperation and task-sharing evident at all times in our systems, and can see that these elements and systems work together towards some degree of an ideal...be that ideal one of temperature or nutrition or non-toxicity or merely homeostasis. All beings have this stimuli/response mechanism in order to relate at-all with the outside environment, but in complex systems such as ourselves, the stimuli are experienced on an unimaginable number of levels by an unimaginable number of individual entities...if only taking the brain and its host of cellular specialties into consideration! Thus, the number of possible responses is astronomical, yet still we manage to sift it all out towards a selective number of manageable, idealized responses. The mechanism that accomplishes this feat is working at it every millisecond that you are alive, and it learns, adapts, re-learns, and makes changes in its selections. All this is happening very quickly...much faster than you can perceive. (Check out some P.D. Ouspensky). The closest that you can come to perceiving this mechanism in action UP CLOSE is by being involved in a creative act, or activity. The more absorbed you become in your creating the more you will be 'synched' with the fullness of this thing which you have reduced to being a mere stimuli/response systemology. When your fingers play something beyond your theoretical ability; when your body dances in perfect fluid motion; when your hands and eyes coordinate to bring out of 'nowhere' a visual statement such as a painting or sculpture that has the capability of sending a charge of awe through a huge number of fellow human beings, then you will realize what I am talking about. Until then, you will merely be pissing on a rock and calling it art. -- Terry Leigh Britton http://www.rbdc.com/~brittont/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 23:47:46 -0300 Reply-To: Electronic Music Discussion List Sender: Electronic Music Discussion List From: Miguel Correa Subject: Re: The Art Discussion (1) IN>NOTHING IS ART. EVERYTHING IS A RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. A CHEMICAL, IN>ELECTRICAL RESPONSE TO A STIMULI. YOU DECIDE THE ORIGIN OF THE ARTISTIC IN>CREATIVITY(the stimuli) AND THEN YOU REACT IN THE APPROPRIATE IN>MEDIUM(response). I AM NOT AN EXPERT, NOR INTELLECT, NOR PHILOSIPHER, NOT IN>MUSICIAN, OR PAINTER, OR PHOTOGRAPHER, I AM ME. I HAVE DECIDED THAT: Oh. You decided? Sounds fascist. IN>ART IN>IS IN>A IN>RESPONSE IN>OPEN EARS, IN>SINBYTE May be you are a little reduccionist... * SLMR 2.1a * A.A.A.A.A: American Association Against Acronym Abuse