=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:30:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: music faves and long messages
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Ugur Kavalci
>>
>> >From =cw4t7abs
>> > neonatal synaesthesia hypo thes!s -  up 2approx 4months
>> > ov a6e all bab!es experienss sensory !nput !n an undifferentiated >
>.......
>.......
>and more
>.......
>then some more of
>.......
>.......
>
>> Pedro "he who writes way too much" Batista
>
>definitely an eye opener for guys grown lazy on quick and easy mails in
>a -20+message per very busy working day- forum. thank you
>
>Ugur "he who against all the promise of torture and pain nevertheless
>reads doggedly to the end" Kavalci
>
>-ps: but do please keep em to once per week, if you don't mind
>(or don't if you do)

Damn! Now that had already replaced my therapy with this lukubrative daily
moments!

Well, ok

Pedro "he who used to write way too much
but now only does it once a week" Batista
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 12:49:52 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <199708300011.TAA29451@huitzilo.tezcat.com> (message from
              =cw4t7abs on Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:11:56 -0500)

> >I dare to make two suggestions:
> >1. Capybara, by KYMA

Agreed; I'd love to see or play with one. I wonder where my local UK
dealership is?

> >2. Csound, and all its variants (I heard that a new hardware/software
> >solution based in Csound is being prepared).

I'm very much into realtime control and live performance, and I don't
think Csound is very well tailored to this.

> +2mor.  max.

I kn0w a\but maX [
of
coursE
] bt it duzn/t addres problM. itz not\-a sampl manip|n Tool.

>   mor.  lisa.

[Appl] L!sa? !Huh? Cuul.

>        ppc onl+e.
> zom det ska vara.

Verstehe`n!cht.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:16:03 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I'm very much into realtime control and live performance, and I don't
>think Csound is very well tailored to this.

zuper kollider.

>> +2mor.  max.
>
>I kn0w a\but maX [
>of
>coursE

jez. ckan 1 make multipl selekt!onz when paTch lokd _+?


>] bt it duzn/t addres problM. itz not\-a sampl manip|n Tool.

perhapz. operate dze dsp 4rom cnmat. 4 timbre manipulat!on.
operate dze variousz snd objektz 4 tr!gger!ng + granulat!ng.


>>   mor.  lisa.
>
>[Appl] L!sa? !Huh? Cuul.

l!ve sampling.


>>        ppc onl+e.
>> zom det ska vara.
>
>Verstehe`n!cht.

zom det ska vara = az !t should b.


lazycellularautomata
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:34:46 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Paul Nagle <paul@SOFTROOM.DEMON.CO.UK>
Organization: The Soft Room
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <19970901124952.1594.qmail@wyvis.an-teallach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

** Nick Rothwell wrote to EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU :


>Verstehe`n!cht.
Don't you bloody well start!

Paul
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Paul Nagle - paul@softroom.demon.co.uk
            www.softroom.demon.co.uk (Upd. 11/08/97)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 09:30:17 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: zuchstnoch!mmerjemandenzumfl!rtn
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>>Verstehe`n!cht.
>Don't you bloody well start!


!nformaz!on !z
                dze onl+e legal tender. vizitorz pay 4access2
                !nformation not 4access
2dze phizikl _\- struktur.


gehtz h!er !mmer zo kaot!sch zu.
w!rtschaFt!ztt0t   =D8f=D8=D8=D83
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:50:20 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 >> >I dare to make two suggestions:
>> >1. Capybara, by KYMA
>
>Agreed; I'd love to see or play with one. I wonder where my local UK
>dealership is?

Symbolic Sound Corporation, the company that makes KYMA and Capibara, do not
have resellers. Instead, they sell directly the system to those which want
it. Maybe you want to take a look. Go to http://www.symbolicsound.com/ for
more information about it. The site also has a news page, called eightnerve.
Well deserve a look.

>> >2. Csound, and all its variants (I heard that a new hardware/software
>> >solution based in Csound is being prepared).
>
>I'm very much into realtime control and live performance, and I don't
>think Csound is very well tailored to this.
>
Csound will be realtime soon, I think. And when it becomes realtime, and
with a decent user interface, there will not be anything to compete with.
Check From: "Vercoe, Scotty" <Scotty.Vercoe@analog.com>

Subject: Analog Devices Extended Csound


>> +2mor.  max.
>
>I kn0w a\but maX [
>of
>coursE
>] bt it duzn/t addres problM. itz not\-a sampl manip|n Tool.

MAX is a fantastic tool, but it isn't oriented to sound manipulation,
specially in realtime.  There are objects for sound manipulation, specially
for Granular Synthesis, but they are quite inneficcient. Super Collider
seems to be much better in this way, as per what I saw in the demo. I am
seriously considering the purchase of this.

>
>>   mor.  lisa.
>
>[Appl] L!sa? !Huh? Cuul.
>
>>        ppc onl+e.
>> zom det ska vara.
>
>Verstehe`n!cht.
>
What the hell are these two talking about?
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 14:09:05 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <199709011316.IAA08657@xochi.tezcat.com> (message from =cw4t7abs
              on Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:16:03 -0500)

> >I'm very much into realtime control and live performance, and I don't
> >think Csound is very well tailored to this.
>
> zuper kollider.

Yeah, possibly. It requires serious hardware to be really useful, more
serious certainly than the so-called "obsolete" PowerBooks like the
PB170 strapped and bolted into my live rig (and which is worth
somewhat less than the flight cases). It would also take me a while to
develop a process paradigm for composing using SC: for its faults,
MIDI gives one a mental framework for building sounds, building
ways to perform with sounds, and building new protocols for both.

> >I kn0w a\but maX [
> >of
> >coursE
>
> jez. ckan 1 make multipl selekt!onz when paTch lokd _+?

This in-joke is probably lost on the EMUSIC-L crowd. _+?

> l!ve sampling.

Kaffe Matthews does a nice line in this: a PPC PowerBook running the
STEIM software, controlled by a ZETA violin pickup and a fader
box. Very nice for improvisation, although not very
reproducable. (Reproducability may or may not be an issue, although I
require it for the purposes of framing.)

Then again, what about live MIDI sampling? I used this technique for a
performance a few years ago, to capture note events and do various
things with the loops. What I don't have is a framing technique for
this; I should develop one.

> zom det ska vara = az !t should b.

Tnx.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:33:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>Symbolic Sound Corporation, the company that makes KYMA and Capibara, do no=
t
>have resellers. Instead, they sell directly the system to those which want
>it. Maybe you want to take a look. Go to http://www.symbolicsound.com/ for
>more information about it. The site also has a news page, called eightnerve=
.
>Well deserve a look.

kyma 4beoz. sans capybara.
jag kr=E4ver.


>MAX is a fantastic tool, but it isn't oriented to sound manipulation,
>specially in realtime.  There are objects for sound manipulation, specially
>for Granular Synthesis, but they are quite inneficcient. Super Collider
>seems to be much better in this way, as per what I saw in the demo. I am
>seriously considering the purchase of this.

max.quite.eff!c!ent 4 snd man!pulat!on.
via dze dsp objekt 4rom cnmat.
+ichi snd objekt. 4real time.
+var!ousz oDr matter 4non-real time.


>>>        ppc onl+e.
>>> zom det ska vara.
>>
>>Verstehe`n!cht.
>>
>What the hell are these two talking about?

we!ss nicht.
m9nd svulst.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:33:00 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      er:sc.max.lisa.mac!ntosch.
              =?iso-8859-1?Q?=2Bm4=A9=21nT=F8s=A2h=5F=5C=2Df=D8n=DDz?=
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>> zuper kollider.
>
>Yeah, possibly. It requires serious hardware to be really useful, more
>serious certainly than the so-called "obsolete" PowerBooks like the
>PB170 strapped and bolted into my live rig (and which is worth
>somewhat less than the flight cases).

6oo$ ppc

>It would also take me a while to
>develop a process paradigm for composing using SC: for its faults,
>MIDI gives one a mental framework for building sounds, building
>ways to perform with sounds, and building new protocols for both.

midi kikx.
+ sc akcepTz !tz !nstruktionz.
albe!t with sm d.lay.


>> >I kn0w a\but maX [
>> >of
>> >coursE
>>
>> jez. ckan 1 make multipl selekt!onz when paTch lokd _+?
>
>This in-joke is probably lost on the EMUSIC-L crowd. _+?

kanske. [may.b]


>> l!ve sampling.
>
>Kaffe Matthews does a nice line in this: a PPC PowerBook running the
>STEIM software, controlled by a ZETA violin pickup and a fader
>box. Very nice for improvisation, although not very
>reproducable. (Reproducability may or may not be an issue, although I
>require it for the purposes of framing.)

max ckan certainl+e fikx. dze reproducability [kuUt.koOp+e.paAste]

>Then again, what about live MIDI sampling?

jez.
live life sampl!ng.
cioccolatto

dr!p.

>
T
h
i
s

i
n
-
j
o
k
e

i
s

p
r
o
b
a
b
l
y

l
o
s
t

o
n

t
h
e

E
M
U
S
I
C
-
L

c
r
o
w
d
.

_
+
?


> I used this technique for a
>performance a few years ago, to capture note events and do various
>things with the loops. What I don't have is a framing technique for
>this; I should develop one.

jez. waz !zt framing.


w!rTschaFt!ztt0t_|-=D8f=D8=D8=D83
ot.se/lekrummet/mush/index.htm













l

3oomhz macintosch machinez
cccell 4hundredz lesz than 1komparabl+e equ!ppd dell pii 3oo
$36oo vs $45oo.
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:57:50 -0400
Reply-To:     David Crandall <dcrand1@gl.umbc.edu>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         David Crandall <dcrand1@GL.UMBC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <19970901140905.4156.qmail@wyvis.an-teallach.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Nick Rothwell wrote:

> Kaffe Matthews does a nice line in this: a PPC PowerBook running the
> STEIM software, controlled by a ZETA violin pickup and a fader
> box. Very nice for improvisation, although not very
> reproducable. (Reproducability may or may not be an issue, although I
> require it for the purposes of framing.)
>
> Then again, what about live MIDI sampling? I used this technique for a
> performance a few years ago, to capture note events and do various
> things with the loops. What I don't have is a framing technique for
> this; I should develop one.

I'm curious as to what you mean by "framing technique".  I'm thinking of
getting into LISA and thinking ahead to how I would organize things.

David Crandall

dcrand1@gl.umbc.edu
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:44:14 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Mateusz <mateusz@SWIPNET.SE>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot max
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

=cw4t7abs wrote:

> via dze dsp objekt 4rom cnmat.
> +ichi snd objekt. 4real time.
> +var!ousz oDr matter 4non-real time.(snip)

was is cnmat? ichi?

hey you max heads, could you please post some resources, lists etc that
might be useful to a soon to be max newbie...

mateusz
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Sep 1997 03:59:42 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: max
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>was is cnmat? ichi?


ftp.ircam.fr/pub/forumnet/max/
www.cnmat.berkeley.edu/
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:08:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Live performing
Mime-Version: 1.0

Nick Rothwell wrote:
> I'm very much into realtime control and live performance,
> and I don't think Csound is very well tailored to this.

and then:
> Then again, what about live MIDI sampling? I used this technique for a
> performance a few years ago, to capture note events and do various
> things with the loops. What I don't have is a framing technique for
> this; I should develop one.

Can you tell how do you manage live performance presently?
How do you go about triggering/looping samples live? Do you DAT things off?
Use sequencers?
Until now I never needed to work with sequencers live, but I bet the bloody
thing will crash while loading sequences in-between songs. Its good old
Murphy's law.
What about live MIDI sampling? Did you manage to survive it? (btw, what do
you mean "framing"?)

Any hints from anyone experienced would be apreciated.

Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:30:42 -0700
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Robert Edgar <lull@ICONCEPTUAL.COM>
Subject:      Realtime emusic performance software
In-Reply-To:  <19970901124952.1594.qmail@wyvis.an-teallach.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>> >2. Csound, and all its variants (I heard that a new hardware/software
>> >solution based in Csound is being prepared).
>
>I'm very much into realtime control and live performance, and I don't
>think Csound is very well tailored to this.
>

Try Grainwave:
http://www.mills.edu/PEOPLE/gr.pages/mikeb.public.html/mikeb.homepage.html

Robert Edgar
lull@iconceptual.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:48:03 +0200
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Guy Van Belle <Guy.VanBelle@RUG.AC.BE>
Subject:      Re: Live performing
In-Reply-To:  <00023591.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Hi Pedro,
I am part of a computer music band Young Farmers Claim Future and we do
live interactive concerts all the time. We use Max, Grainwave, Lisa,
BigEye, ... and also Director and even HyperCard as an interface for all
possible media. We play realtime with a bunch of Macs in an ethernet
network. We hate sequencers. Most of the time, we crash BEFORE the
machines do.
GuyZ./.




                             ......................
                             Guy c. Jules Van Belle
                                  *simsim*
                             http://dewey.rug.ac.be
                             ......................




On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, Pedro Batista wrote:

> Nick Rothwell wrote:
> > I'm very much into realtime control and live performance,
> > and I don't think Csound is very well tailored to this.
>
> and then:
> > Then again, what about live MIDI sampling? I used this technique for a
> > performance a few years ago, to capture note events and do various
> > things with the loops. What I don't have is a framing technique for
> > this; I should develop one.
>
> Can you tell how do you manage live performance presently?
> How do you go about triggering/looping samples live? Do you DAT things off?
> Use sequencers?
> Until now I never needed to work with sequencers live, but I bet the bloody
> thing will crash while loading sequences in-between songs. Its good old
> Murphy's law.
> What about live MIDI sampling? Did you manage to survive it? (btw, what do
> you mean "framing"?)
>
> Any hints from anyone experienced would be apreciated.
>
> Pedro
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:07:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: performing live
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Guy Van Belle

> I am part of a computer music band Young Farmers Claim Future
> and we do live interactive concerts all the time. We use Max,
> Grainwave, Lisa, BigEye, ... and also Director and even HyperCard
> as an interface for all possible media. We play realtime with a bunch
> of Macs in an ethernet network. We hate sequencers. Most of the
> time,  we crash BEFORE the machines do.

Ola Guy
I guess the trend of emusic live performing is the amount of gear you want
to put on stage. I find it hard to carrie an ethernet arround. I favor
playing most live sounds in realtime, leaving just, say, the rhythm track to
be sequenced or even DATed.
Your aproach makes total sense for an "interactive concert", since theres
various media you need controling, but I need a reliable solution for
real-time control over samples, involving triggering & synch, that would
still allow me to play keyboards.
TIA for any further help
Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:19:57 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Live performing
In-Reply-To:  <00023591.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt> (message from Pedro
              Batista on Tue, 2 Sep 1997 16:08:00 GMT)

> Can you tell how do you manage live performance presently?
> How do you go about triggering/looping samples live?

Well, my stuff's all synthesised, not sampled. (I even have a
disclaimer on my album that the recording is 100% sampler-free.)

> Do you DAT things off?
> Use sequencers?

I don't use DAT or sequencers for backing tracks, since I don't
consider that live performance. I'm not passing judgement on anyone
who uses them (well, I am, although my opinion doesn't necessarily
carry much weight), but I consider it a productive discipline to
construct live performances which don't rely on backing material.

> Until now I never needed to work with sequencers live, but I bet the
> bloody thing will crash while loading sequences in-between
> songs. Its good old Murphy's law.

I've had about four failures of various kinds in five or six years of
performances. One programming error (I forgot to implement a critical
section in one bit of MAX code, leaving a dancer in silence for a few
seconds), one pilot error aggravated by dreadul design ergonomics (the
stupid way the Morpheus responds to program changes depending on
front-panel mode), and a couple of mild hardware/firmware problems
(Lexicon LXP-5 flakiness and MOTU MTP flakiness). I've never had any
computer-related problems at all, mainly because MAX is very stable.

> (btw, what do you mean "framing"?)

That's hard to explain without going all Eno-esque on everybody. It's
a technique I've sort-of developed for turning musical material into
some sort of process which can be controlled and performed live. You
have to identify patterns to the material, codify these, and decide
which degrees of freedom are useful in a live situation.

(A frame is, roughly, a musical element which responds to
controllers according to a generic protocol.)

Simple example: your ordinary boring techno drum loop. That would be
framed by attaching it to a MAX triggering object (synchronised in
whatever way is necessary), and then routing faders to, let us say,
volume and a couple of filter parameters. You then have a control
frame: a musical element whose external interface is a synchronisation
source and three faders (plus construct/destruct machinery which does
all the patch-change business).

Slightly more complex example: if the loop is a sequence of MIDI
notes, then this could be framed into a MAX object with control points
which do things like vary the syncopation and phrasing of the
notes. This can be considered a captured frame of a more complex, but
passive, track of MIDI data, where the performance gestures reproduce
the differences between different parts of the material.

Silly example: your on-stage DAT deck is a frame, with two control
points: a volume control and the start/stop buttons. (As such, it's a
perfectly valid performance instrument, if used imaginatively.)

Btw, I'm making this up as I go along.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:04:51 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: performing live
In-Reply-To:  <00023846.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt> (message from Pedro
              Batista on Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:07:00 GMT)

> > I am part of a computer music band Young Farmers Claim Future

I've always thought that that was a really cool name.

Do you guys have a Buchla Thunder btw?

> I guess the trend of emusic live performing is the amount of gear you want
> to put on stage.

One issue is the amount of gear you want to put on stage (and the
amount of operational complexity you want to deal with in a live
situation).

A related, and oft-overlooked, issue is how much music you actually
want to create. For a while I went around wanting to reproduce what
were essentially album tracks, and the amount of gear I had on stage
was enormous (half a dozen synths, two computers, four hard disks, two
MIDI routing matrices). These days the rig is tiny: Wavestation A/D,
UltraProteus, DMP-7, MAX PowerBook. Rather than try to work out how to
make your existing music performable on-stage (using DAT or whatever),
why not try to work out what is possible to do totally live, and how
few musical elements you can get away with? This might well involve a
rethink in terms of performance venue and context. Certainly it should
involve a rethink in terms of control structures (hence my "frames"
approach).

One of the reasons I like working in dance is that the soundtrack can
be very simple in terms of the hardware needed to produce it,
especially given how abstract the soundtracks can be. Hell, feeding
mains hum into a handful of effects processors would keep some of the
more enlightened dancers happy for hours.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:29:24 -0400
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Joe McMahon <mcmahon@CLARK.NET>
Subject:      ADMIN: Joe M. unavailable for a while
Comments: To: synth-l <synth-l@american.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I'll be unavailable until the 15th - taking a break. Until then, you'll need to
ask Mike for any administrative stuff.

 --- Joe M.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:32:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: live performance ("framing")
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Nick Rothwell
>> Do you DAT things off?
>> Use sequencers?
>
>I don't use DAT or sequencers for backing tracks, since I don't
>consider that live performance. I'm not passing judgement on anyone
>who uses them (well, I am, although my opinion doesn't necessarily
>carry much weight), but I consider it a productive discipline to
>construct live performances which don't rely on backing material.

Sorry Nick, I can't let this one go uncomented.
First you use some backing (pre-programed) material yourself (even if you
change parameterization live), as is aparent from your "framing" explanation
later on. Second though I deeply agree with you that a live performance
should be LIVE, it has a lot to do with the kind of music you do.
Its great to have a drummer play live, but if you are using 160bpm
breakbeats, it gets a little dificult. What I do is combine both (i.e. have
the drummer/percussionist and the sequencer).
I'm not in favor of groups that take everything DATed to stage (tho DATs are
more reliable than sequencers for that matter). Thats not live playing,
thats playback.
But in my case, no live-drummer could play the rhythm tracks I program, and
tho I can play keyboards live, and have other musicians play other
instruments, I will still need a sequenced or DATed rhythm track, even if
there's also a live drummer

> I've never had any computer-related problems at all, mainly
> because MAX is very stable.

Thats a confort

[framing]
>It's a technique I've sort-of developed for turning musical material into
>some sort of process which can be controlled and performed live
>(A frame is, roughly, a musical element which responds to
>controllers according to a generic protocol.)

Very interesting indeed. You do all your framing in MAX? that makes me
rearrange my short term priorities

>Btw, I'm making this up as I go along.

You're doing fine

Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:03:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
Mime-Version: 1.0

Nick Rothwell brings some interesting points:

> A related, and oft-overlooked, issue is how much
> music you actually want to create. For a while I went
> around wanting to reproduce what were essentially
> album tracks, and the amount of gear I had on stage
> was enormous

> Rather than try to work out how to make your existing
> music performable on-stage (using DAT or whatever),
> why not try to work out what is possible to do totally live, and how
> few musical elements you can get away with?

I have a lot of songs MIDIed up and ready to roll (no sampler, cant afford
one yet). I'm facing now the need to take this all live. My first step was
to gather other musicians to interpret my previously writen tracks. This by
itself already implys rewriting the tracks, often till they have little to
do with the original track. I give my opinions, the musician adds his point
of view and we get along just fine (maybe because they let me have the final
word ;>)
The main problem is the beat. The rhythm programming is the skeleton in most
of my songs, and I havent yet found a satisfying way to "unplug" it. We've
been reharsing with the drum box playing, but this brings a BIG problem,
that is expression. Since our feel is very jazzy,  we do a lot of "go with
flow", and sometimes we needed the stupid machine to follow us instead of
making us follow it. I could make on-the-fly corrections, but I'm busy with
the keyboards. I dont think there's a way to overcome this without using a
real drummer and percussionist.
Maybe Nick's framing ideas can help along with this?

Help, hints, criticism?
TIA
Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:26:09 +0200
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Guy Van Belle <Guy.VanBelle@RUG.AC.BE>
Subject:      Re: live performance ("framing")
In-Reply-To:  <00023C37.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Well, we never use real backing material, we just use input sources tht
can be sound, midi and other data (we even have our own protocols running
somewhere), or keyboard (computer keyboard, no pianoshapes), mouse ...
The thing is, that we consider our computers to be the musicians, they do
a nice job you know (always in time for rehearsals and they hardly get mad
when you ask them for impossible things or criticize their playing - even,
when they go wild, they bring out better things than you ever could think
of asking!)
I guess you have to allow your music to change also. No matter when your
musician is hardware or wetware (who cares about the difference...) treat
them as full band members, help them and support them, make them learn...
while you learn also from them.
So I guess our live drummer has a screen.


> First you use some backing (pre-programed) material yourself (even if you
> change parameterization live), as is aparent from your "framing" explanation
> later on. Second though I deeply agree with you that a live performance
> should be LIVE, it has a lot to do with the kind of music you do.
> Its great to have a drummer play live, but if you are using 160bpm
> breakbeats, it gets a little dificult. What I do is combine both (i.e. have
> the drummer/percussionist and the sequencer).
> I'm not in favor of groups that take everything DATed to stage (tho DATs are
> more reliable than sequencers for that matter). Thats not live playing,
> thats playback.
> But in my case, no live-drummer could play the rhythm tracks I program, and
> tho I can play keyboards live, and have other musicians play other
> instruments, I will still need a sequenced or DATed rhythm track, even if
> there's also a live drummer
>
> > I've never had any computer-related problems at all, mainly
> > because MAX is very stable.
and a very cool environment for making music

>
> [framing]
> >It's a technique I've sort-of developed for turning musical material into
> >some sort of process which can be controlled and performed live
> >(A frame is, roughly, a musical element which responds to
> >controllers according to a generic protocol.)
nice

GuyZ./.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:11:08 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
In-Reply-To:  <00023C64.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt> (message from Pedro
              Batista on Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:03:00 GMT)

> I have a lot of songs MIDIed up and ready to roll (no sampler, cant afford
> one yet). I'm facing now the need to take this all live.

Two comments: (i) I read an implicit comment here that a sampler is
essential (and it's just financial constraints that prevent you from
owning one). Is this really true?

(ii) Like I said about performance context: I'm unconvinced that
taking studio tracks onto the stage is a good way to go about
things. I find it much more refreshing to use one mindset for
recording and a completely different one for performing, although it's
sometimes possible to frame some of the studio music elements into
things which can be controlled live.

> Maybe Nick's framing ideas can help along with this?

I'd have to hear your music before I could make any constructive
comment. But "framing" is - erm, what was the term used in that
wonderful old Columbo episode about the dogs? - a "power word." If it
means something to you which helps solve your problems, then what I
mean by it is largely irrelevant.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:25:03 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: live performance ("framing")
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.SOL.3.94.970904101722.10911L-100000@allserv.rug.ac.be>
              (message from Guy Van Belle on Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:26:09 +0200)

> > > I've never had any computer-related problems at all, mainly
> > > because MAX is very stable.

> and a very cool environment for making music

Actually, I don't find MAX very musical at all. It is, however, a
superb environment for building control systems and bringing some
discipline to errant pieces of MIDI hardware. The making of music is
something different.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:30:02 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <19970901165541.AAA6803@default> (message from Fernando Manuel
              Rodrigues on Mon, 1 Sep 1997 16:50:20 +0100)

> Symbolic Sound Corporation, the company that makes KYMA and
> Capibara, do not have resellers.

A loud cheer goes out from the assembled crowd. The so-called "value
added" resellers are usually low-grade support and distribution
outfits who add an extra large markup which is funnelled into flashy
offices, fast cars and multi-page glossy adverts in the trade rags.

Anyone here looked at Sound On Sound or Future Music recently?

> Maybe you want to take a look. Go to http://www.symbolicsound.com/ for
> more information about it.

Looks cool, and I like the generic approach to the design. Since the
Capybara can be rackmounted, it's a bit of a shame that the system
requires a desktop computer to run (well, a PCI card, which means the
same thing). A SCSI interface would make it PowerBook-drivable, and
PowerBooks are ideal for live situations where desktop machines are
not.

(As far as I'm concerned, a computer is only suitable for use on-stage
if you can drill holes in the bottom of it and screw it down into a
rack case.)

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:03:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Algo-list
Mime-Version: 1.0

Can anyone please send me the algoritmic composition list's address.
I'm afraid I lost it.
(please email privately)
Thanks much
Pedro
<pbatista@colep.mailpac.pt>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:23:47 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nick said:
>The so-called "value
>added" resellers are usually low-grade support and distribution
>outfits who add an extra large markup which is funnelled into flashy
>offices, fast cars and multi-page glossy adverts in the trade rags.
>
>Anyone here looked at Sound On Sound or Future Music recently?

Well Nick - as one of those guys which, by your own words, have flashy
offices, fast cars and multi-page glossy adverts in the trade rags, I must
say I am neither of that (but, then, I'm in a country with a very small,
narrow-minded market)- Actually, some of us do a lot of investment in their
work, buying stuff that they don't know if they are going to sell, and end
up competing with those guys which run corporations, and now, benefiting of
the open market of EC, sell to all Europe at lower prices, taking advantage
of lower costs in the manufacturer, due to the fact they buy much more than
we do.
I have two computer systems, and I do a lot of testing to all the staff I
sell. I am proud to say that I minimally know every product I sell in my
department. I read five magazines cover to cover every month (not Future
Music, since I have no time for diletantism). I buy a lot of books on the
subject of electronic music. I am always studying and making research
(Internet is helping me a lot in this). And I also do some composing, mainly
for my own pleasure. I used to teach (I no longer am able to spare enough
time for that). I do all this just because I love music and computers, and
it was always my dream to marry both.
But I regret to say that, largely, it seems you are right about what you say
of the music distributors and retailers. A lot of them hardly care about
music. It's like prostitutes - they just do what gives them money and IF it
gives them money - pleasure has nothing to do with it.
>
>> Maybe you want to take a look. Go to http://www.symbolicsound.com/ for
>> more information about it.
>
>Looks cool, and I like the generic approach to the design. Since the
>Capybara can be rackmounted, it's a bit of a shame that the system
>requires a desktop computer to run (well, a PCI card, which means the
>same thing). A SCSI interface would make it PowerBook-drivable, and
>PowerBooks are ideal for live situations where desktop machines are
>not.
>
>(As far as I'm concerned, a computer is only suitable for use on-stage
>if you can drill holes in the bottom of it and screw it down into a
>rack case.)
>
Well, KYMA is basically a research tool, as well as a sound designer one
(Frank Serafine is reported as being one of those which work extensively
with KYMA). It's main market, as I was told, is universities, colleges,
research studios, and the like (that's why they do not have resellers). Of
course, they need the computer to host the software. I don't know if it was
possible through SCSI, but you have to agree that computers are somehow
delicate stuff (specially portables like the Power Books). Also, Power Books
were (I think they still are) underpowered and very costly, when compared to
the desktop models. About rack mounting a CPU - I can't see where is the
problem. All you have to do is find someone which can build you a custom box
and assemble all the components there. Of course, this will mean some extra
money to pay for, but the added power and reliability it brings to you may
justify the investment. To do this, a PC is somehow better than a Mac. PC
parts are widely available, and you can assemble a PC now and last with it
for quite some years, just by replacing the parts that become more
performace compromising. But I believe you can do the same on a Mac (on some
Macs - you have to carefully select the motherboard you will start with -
the new models from DayStar, UMAX and Motorola come with a newly designed
motherboard that receives the main processor in a rise card - this is ideal
for the job).

A few more words about Extended Csound. It will appear in a revamped,
commercial (not public, I'm afraid) system, built by ANALOG DEVICES, and
composed of hardware (kind of soundcard) and software (a new Csound,
extended in functions - I wonder where do they extended it, since it was
already doing almost anything one can think of), and with (as I was said) a
GUI - Graphical User Interface - this one is definitely a powerfull add-on.
Besides, it will be REAL TIME, and will react to MIDI, as well as other
controllers. Of course, anyone used to the traditional Csound would be able
to work on this new Csound the old-fashioned way.

The project has in behind almost anyone that counts in the Csound world,
including its father, Barry Vercoe, also the architect of this new system.

I don't know what you think, but I am very excited with this project. I hope
they will make the right associations, and that some of the already
installed majors decide to support it (reportedly, Denon and Generalmusic
will support it from the very beginning). Lets wait and see. I have a very
extensive text on this subject. Anyone who wants it, pls. request and I will
e-mail it privately.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:55:34 EDT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         William_B_Fox <wbf@ALOFT.MICRO.LUCENT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Live performing

Nick said:
> One issue is the amount of gear you want to put on stage (and the
> amount of operational complexity you want to deal with in a live
> situation).

When my gear list was small, my studio setup, less the keyboard, was my
live rig.  That made it easy to keep track of how things worked; same
configuration live as in the studio and restricted gear list.  My
sampler was also my sequencer and it played the backing tracks for the
rock/pop songs my duo was performing.  Tracks were as basic as drums and
bass and became as complex as strings, horns, piano, organ, synths,
voices, and whatever else was needed.  "Why not dump the stuff to tape?"
you ask.  Because the sequencer also controlled my guitar's effects
processor and going to tape would have lost that feature that the
sequencer supplied.

Now I'd like to do electronic music in a solo setting.  I'm trying to
figure out a way to sound sequenced without using a sequencer.  This is
proving to be difficult at the conceptual stage.  Maybe I just need to
configure a small system and just start mucking about instead of
intellectualizing all the time...

Nick again:
> These days the rig is tiny: Wavestation A/D, UltraProteus, DMP-7, MAX
> PowerBook.

But don't you also need control surfaces, too?  What do you use to send
data into MAX?  For my own conceptualized setup, I'm thinking of using
all of or a subset of these device types: voice-to-MIDI, guitar-to-MIDI,
programmable pedal board, slider box, percussion pads, and keyboard.
(Golly, if I use them all, my performance might even appear dance-like!
Who needs separate dancers!! :-)

Bill    BillFox@lucent.com      http://wdiyfm.org
Host of Emusic, an electronic, ambient, and space music show.  Thursdays at
11pm on WDIY 88.1 FM, Allentown and Bethlehem and 93.9 FM in Easton and
Phillipsburg.  Email me if you wish to submit music for airplay consideration.
 =============================================================================
"One woman I dated said, "Why don't you just have one keyboard?"
To that I replied, "Why don't you just have one pair of shoes?"
-- Neil Bradley
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 17:00:09 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Live performing
In-Reply-To:  <9709041355.AA00636@kryton> (message from William_B_Fox on Thu, 4
              Sep 1997 09:55:34 EDT)

> Now I'd like to do electronic music in a solo setting.  I'm trying to
> figure out a way to sound sequenced without using a sequencer.

I'm sure you already know what I'd recommend...

> > These days the rig is tiny: Wavestation A/D, UltraProteus, DMP-7, MAX
> > PowerBook.
>
> But don't you also need control surfaces, too?  What do you use to send
> data into MAX?

Yes - true - and omitted from the list, since the control surface
parsers and binders are quite modular so the framing is independent of
the control surfaces in use (although there are some wrinkles - such
as the Thunder's ability to send polyphonic controller data - and of
course playing a frame with a Thunder sounds different to playing it
with a fader box).

> (Golly, if I use them all, my performance might even appear dance-like!
> Who needs separate dancers!! :-)

But they're decorative.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:43:24 -0600
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Jeremy McDermaid <jeremy@A1SLC.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
> From: Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
> To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU
> Subject: Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
> Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 7:23 AM

[snip]


> About rack mounting a CPU - I can't see where is the
> problem. All you have to do is find someone which can build you a custom
box
> and assemble all the components there.

        Call Siliconrax (1-900-700-8560).  They make all sorts of rack enclosures
for standard PC's.  (I have no affiliation with them, can I plug them
without getting the 'anvil from orbit'? :) )
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:07:57 +0300
Reply-To:     piper@superonline.com
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Ugur Kavalci <piper@SUPERONLINE.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Do you have any ideas about the price range of the new Csound? I checked
out previous versions and was disgusted by the abysmal usability. It was
a typical scientist's project: build a mondo tool and forget about a
sissy thing as a decent interface. (all "substance" and no frills) I
guess it must be a real ego trip to be able to use something no one else
can. If the new version is as you say though, it will definitely
recapture my attention.


> A few more words about Extended Csound. It will appear in a revamped,
> commercial (not public, I'm afraid) system, built by ANALOG DEVICES, and
> composed of hardware (kind of soundcard) and software (a new Csound,
> extended in functions - I wonder where do they extended it, since it was
> already doing almost anything one can think of), and with (as I was said) a
> GUI - Graphical User Interface - this one is definitely a powerfull add-on.
> Besides, it will be REAL TIME, and will react to MIDI, as well as other
> controllers. Of course, anyone used to the traditional Csound would be able
> to work on this new Csound the old-fashioned way.
>
> The project has in behind almost anyone that counts in the Csound world,
> including its father, Barry Vercoe, also the architect of this new system.
>
> I don't know what you think, but I am very excited with this project. I hope
> they will make the right associations, and that some of the already
> installed majors decide to support it (reportedly, Denon and Generalmusic
> will support it from the very beginning). Lets wait and see. I have a very
> extensive text on this subject. Anyone who wants it, pls. request and

I will
> e-mail it privately.

please.

piper (aka Ugur Kavalci)
at Istanbul
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:06:24 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Paulo Mouat <mouat@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Nick Rothwell wrote:
> Two comments: (i) I read an implicit comment here that a sampler is
> essential (and it's just financial constraints that prevent you from
> owning one). Is this really true?
>
> (ii) Like I said about performance context: I'm unconvinced that
> taking studio tracks onto the stage is a good way to go about
> things. I find it much more refreshing to use one mindset for
> recording and a completely different one for performing, although it's
> sometimes possible to frame some of the studio music elements into
> things which can be controlled live.

A thought that occurred to me:  Isn't this pursue of a "framing"
technique dependent on the personal vision and intent of the composer?
I would call it something like a paradigm, perhaps changeable from piece
to piece, and it seems--probably affected by my own technique for music
creation--more of a mental construct to ensure a sense of structure,
either by allowing it to move away from what was previously defined or
to quote previous material in different settings.

This said, the combination of some pieces of hardware, with more or less
live freedom has to adjust to the core of the musical phenomena that are
occurring:  a DAT or a sequencer may be adequate for a kind of music
that is supposed to live in the sphere of improvisation or accompaniment
following a strict backing ("Reed Phase" from Steve Reich comes to
mind), whereas this same hardware may be absolutely inadequate if the
spirit of the piece is (say) interaction with live-electronics and
exploration of all imponderable factors of performance.

To my understanding (and I would ask Nick Rothwell to correct me if I
incorrectly "framed" the idea ;-), the framing is just (or part of) the
conceptual approach to endow the whole of the musical factors with
precise relationships between themselves.  It is a way to turn the final
thing into something not fortuitous.

Or perhaps the "framing" is something more practically-oriented and has
no part in the foundations laid for composing the piece, and I
misunderstood it as part of the "process" creation?

Regarding the use of the sampler, that "diabolus in performance," I'd
add that it perfectly fits that endeavour to freeze a sound event in
time, so that every repetition is exactly the same, thus shifting the
act of composing to resynthesis and processing;  by restricting one
degree of freedom, the others gain in importance and protagonism.  And
this way, it is assured that all events have strictly the same origin,
a kind of absolute reference frame for the listener.  Something like the
outcome of a few spectral music pieces out there (Harvey's "Mortuos
Plango, Vivos Voco" comes to mind).

I must say that the subject of control-surfaces is most appealing.
Music definitely lacks different approaches toward performance and sound
generation.

All the best.
--
  __|__
___\_/___   Paulo Mouat,
   ___      mouat@mail.telepac.pt
  |___|     http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/8804/
  |___|
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:27:26 -0700
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Mike Metlay ++ Atomic City <atomic@NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <199709041757.LAA01611@guns.a1slc.com> from "Jeremy McDermaid" at
              Sep 4, 97 11:43:24 am
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jeremy McDermaid writes--
>'s.  (I have no affiliation with them, can I plug them
>without getting the 'anvil from orbit'? :) )

Not on EMUSIC-L, you can't. :)

mike

--
"Maybe Kaopectate was better when I was a kid."                      (ashy)
 ==========================================================================
Mike Metlay - ATOMIC CITY - P. O. Box 81175, Pittsburgh, PA  15217-0675 USA
 =  atomic@netcom.com  --  http://pd.net/atomic-city   --  800.924.ATOM  =
CD orders via LOFTY PURSUITS: 800.548.6724 & 904.385.6463, FAX 904.668.5825
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:46:35 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      humAnm9nd zmpLr
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Regarding the use of the sampler, that "diabolus in performance," I'd
>add that it perfectly fits that endeavour to freeze a sound event in
>time, so that every repetition is exactly the same,

1-az doez dze humAnm9nd zmpLr.
0-az doez dze cd mekcan!zm.
0-noth!ng !z evr z!m!Lr.


>I must say that the subject of control-surfaces is most appealing.
>Music definitely lacks different approaches toward performance and sound
>generation.

perhapz dze musik selekt humanz l-sten 2||2
s!nss !t = muzik.
play-u.r dzkt0p.besser alss.tekkno.oDr.klassikl.
maTTer.

humAnzsu[k.


. alx2 p3r4-mAns.z. = l!v.p3r4-mAns.z.
   l!v.p3r4-mAns.z. = t!m3kmpRsz!On.
   t!  m e          -  !llnesz. fakt0r.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:33:39 -0400
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Steve Long <Jykon2@AOL.COM>
Subject:      cancel

how do i cancel??
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:00:05 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>Do you have any ideas about the price range of the new Csound?

1k

>I checked
>out previous versions and was disgusted by the abysmal usability. It was
>a typical scientist's project: build a mondo tool and forget about a
>sissy thing as a decent interface. (all "substance" and no frills) I
>guess it must be a real ego trip to be able to use something no one else
>can.

humAnzlakc.

>If the new version is as you say though, it will definitely
>recapture my attention.

!t will subsekuentl+e.sukc.

am3r!kkasug3r.
 tro_e=F9ropeca
sufic`e_ne=F9trala
 inventees
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:54:26 -0400
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Mike Conlen <meconlen@INTNET.NET>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
In-Reply-To:  <199709041757.LAA01611@guns.a1slc.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Thu, 4 Sep 1997, Jeremy McDermaid wrote:

> ----------
> > From: Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
> > To: EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU
> > Subject: Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
> > Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 7:23 AM
>
> [snip]
>
>
>         Call Siliconrax (1-900-700-8560).  They make all sorts of rack enclosures
> for standard PC's.  (I have no affiliation with them, can I plug them
> without getting the 'anvil from orbit'? :) )

Accuatly there are many manufactures of racks, if your going to shop
around for them get a copy of BYTE mag. It has many rack manufactures in
the back, as their readership leans more to the technical profesionals
(the general market for this sort of toy) then other rags.

                                                        Groove on Dude
                                                        Michael Conlen
                                                        meconlen@intnet.net
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:27:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: Extended Csound
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Fernando Manuel Rodrigues

> I read five magazines cover to cover every month (not Future
> Music, since I have no time for diletantism)

I agree FM is a diletant magazine, mostly aimed at teens, but what magazines
do you read then?

> I don't know what you think, but I am very excited with this project.

Me too. This could be a dream solution, given the right conditions.

> I have a very extensive text on this subject.
> Anyone who wants it, pls. request and

If you can afford the phone bill, I would be very grateful

pbatista@colep.mailpac.pt
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:27:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: performing live
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Guy Van Belle

>Well, we never use real backing material, we just use input
>sources tht can be sound, midi and other data (we even have
>our own protocols running somewhere), or keyboard (computer
>keyboard, no pianoshapes), mouse ...

I sure would like to go to one of your shows!!
But I really cant afford to even think about what you are sugesting :-)

>The thing is, that we consider our computers to be the musicians

Well, this alone could lead to a whole new thread. But you dont really think
that, do you? I understand what you mean, but the computer can never be the
musician (it can be the musical instrument tho), cause even if youre talking
of algorithmic or random composition, its always the programmer who
determins what the computer will do (even in a random generator, there is a
"formula" to calculate the false-random numbers).

> I guess you have to allow your music to change also

Thats an important point, and in consonance with Nick Rothwell's advice, of
NOT trying to recreat live what you do in a studio set.
Its also vital to my music that I allow it to change, so I'm always looking
for new chalenges and new solutions

Thanks for the advice
Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:27:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Pedro Batista <PBATISTA@COLEP.MAILPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
Mime-Version: 1.0

From Nick Rothwell

>> I have a lot of songs MIDIed up and ready to roll (no sampler, cant
afford
>> one yet). I'm facing now the need to take this all live.
>
>Two comments: (i) I read an implicit comment here that a sampler is
>essential (and it's just financial constraints that prevent you from
>owning one). Is this really true?

Well, its NOT an essencial tool, since I've manage to live without it till
now, relying on synthesis alone, but I'm surely not anti-sampler. So I guess
if I werent on a budget,  I'd invest in one right away.
But, as I already said, I view samples as constructive tools, and my
interest is first of all in the "found sound" ability (heard the term by
spooky), that is the possibility of using your own unique home-brewed
sounds. I DO NOT use other peoples material (not even sample-CDs), unless it
falls on public domain and in the remote chance I want to make some kind of
quotation.
Thats the problem with samplers nowadays: most people do not use them
constructively, but only as a rip-off and ReCycle! medium. As a consequence,
they all end up sounding the same. But I firmly believe samplers can also be
used as an instrument for inovation and originality.
If it exists, and you can make music out of it, why not use it?

> (ii) Like I said about performance context: I'm unconvinced that
> taking studio tracks onto the stage is a good way to go about
> things. I find it much more refreshing to use one mindset for
> recording and a completely different one for performing

I agree with you, and believe me I'm gratefuly taking your advice (since I
dont have much practice in live performing and you obviously have lots).
But its this new "mindset" that I'm maturing right now.
I mentioned the rhythm track as the main problem. What I would like to do
(assuming I can live with the fixed time constraint) is to take some
machine(s) on stage, that would allow me to right a number of patterns
(rhythm and others) beforehand, and then trigger them live, in any
combination I choose. So I guess this would be "live sequencing" (I know
you're gonna say this is an oxymoron).
Problem with this is I'll loose some time to play keyboards, or I would have
to record the keyboard patterns too (maybe I could write the basic comping
patterns beforehand and then make improvised solos live).
So I guess I'm outlining something like the "Rave-O-Lution" ?

>> Maybe Nick's framing ideas can help along with this?
>
>I'd have to hear your music before I could make any constructive
>comment. But "framing" is - erm, what was the term used in that
>wonderful old Columbo episode about the dogs? - a "power word."

I really liked that episode! there was this doberman that was trained to
show afection (licking) when someone said "KILL!", but then would jump on
the throat if its owner said "KISS!". Good old Peter Falk, where is he these
days?

Pedro
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:04:15 -0000
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Nick Rothwell <nick@CASSIEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
In-Reply-To:  <340F3EF0.53900763@mail.telepac.pt> (message from Paulo Mouat on
              Fri, 5 Sep 1997 00:06:24 +0100)

> A thought that occurred to me:  Isn't this pursue of a "framing"
> technique dependent on the personal vision and intent of the composer?
> I would call it something like a paradigm, perhaps changeable from piece
> to piece, and it seems--probably affected by my own technique for music
> creation--more of a mental construct to ensure a sense of structure,
> either by allowing it to move away from what was previously defined or
> to quote previous material in different settings.

What more can I say, except: absolutely.

> To my understanding (and I would ask Nick Rothwell to correct me if I
> incorrectly "framed" the idea ;-), the framing is just (or part of) the
> conceptual approach to endow the whole of the musical factors with
> precise relationships between themselves.  It is a way to turn the final
> thing into something not fortuitous.

That's right. A large part of the motivation is for
reproducability. If (say) you've done an hour-long jam, during which
you managed to get two minutes of really nice material and 58 minutes
of rubbish, what do you do with the two minutes? My process is to
disect and codify that, determine its structure and components, and
then see how many degrees of freedom the components have, and what
else they are capable of creating in different contexts.

The motivation is really this: good music comes about when your brain
is not in the way. Framing is a way of intellectually applying a
process to the music created (or captured) from improvisation.

(Others here might consider this an unproductive technique, which is
fine, but it seems to work for me.)

> Regarding the use of the sampler, that "diabolus in performance," I'd
> add that it perfectly fits that endeavour to freeze a sound event in
> time, so that every repetition is exactly the same

...except that this isn't what I'm after (it doesn't allow analysis or
control), although it's a perfectly valid approach.

> I must say that the subject of control-surfaces is most appealing.
> Music definitely lacks different approaches toward performance and sound
> generation.

You would think so, wouldn't you? So would I. But try explaining any
of this to the media or arts establishment, whose job it is to have an
interest in this kind of thing.

--
         Nick Rothwell, CASSIEL        contemporary dance projects
         http://www.cassiel.com        music synthesis and control

             years, passing by, VCO, VCF, and again, and again
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:35:45 -0400
Reply-To:     DAnez@ix.netcom.com
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         "Ing. Dimar Anez" <DAnez@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Organization: MediaTel s.a.
Subject:      Re: Algo-list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pedro Batista wrote:
>
> Can anyone please send me the algoritmic composition list's address.
> I'm afraid I lost it.
> (please email privately)
> Thanks much
> Pedro
> <pbatista@colep.mailpac.pt>

Please send me too, thanks!!
--
   +--------------------------+    ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
   |   Ing. Dimar A/nez       |    ||                        |
   |   Hm Phone +58 61 551394 |    ||######## x xxx x #######|
   |   Jb Phone +58 61 551394 |    ||##### x ######### x ####|
   |   DAnez@ix.netcom.com    |    ||////////////////////////|
   |   MEDIATEL               |    ||////////////////////////|
   |   Maracaibo - Venezuela. |    ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   +--------------------------+    ||
                                  /__\
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:51:08 -0400
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Frank Obuchowicz <cerf-volant@ACICA.COM>
Subject:      Re: rethinking live performance
In-Reply-To:  <00024152.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I really liked that episode! there was this doberman that was trained to
>show afection (licking) when someone said "KILL!", but then would jump on
>the throat if its owner said "KISS!". Good old Peter Falk, where is he these
>days?
>
>Pedro

        Not really sure what episode you're talking about but it does make me
remember a movie with James Garner and I think it was Katherin Ross called
"They only kill thier masters". What all of this has to do with emusic I'm
not sure. It does however make me think to a couple of posts a few days ago
where it was a question of color and sound. Why not also add the other
senses? I've often heard comments that a particular piece or phrase was
tasty. Or that a cetain musician had or has a good feel. I've even heard
that some music sounded like shit. Not really sure what shit sounds like,
but I sure know what it smells like.

        I suppose that I'm just a little nostalgic. All I needed in the good old
days was my B3, a drummer, and if I could afford to pay one, a guitarist or
a sax. I have however kept up with all of the changes and even use all of
the new gizmos on occasion. But I personally think that most people that
listen to music whether it's on a radio, in a bar, or an elevator don't
even notice it. In fact, I think that the average persons knowledge of
electronics is limited to turning their TV on and off.

        BYE, Hibou.....
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:15:13 +0300
Reply-To:     piper@superonline.com
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Ugur Kavalci <piper@SUPERONLINE.COM>
Subject:      Re: music faves, synestesia, tarot (and
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

=cw4t7abs wrote:
>
> >Do you have any ideas about the price range of the new Csound?
>
> 1k
>

ulp


> humAnzlakc.
>
> >If the new version is as you say though, it will definitely
> >recapture my attention.
>
> !t will subsekuentl+e.sukc.
>
wie so?

> am3r!kkasug3r.
>  tro_ełropeca
> sufic`e_nełtrala
>  inventees

....xyzbplinnk(!)
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 03:43:07 +0200
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Guy Van Belle <Guy.VanBelle@RUG.AC.BE>
Subject:      Re: performing live
In-Reply-To:  <00024153.MAI*PBATISTA@colep.mailpac.pt>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

                             ......................
                             Guy c. Jules Van Belle
                                  *simsim*
                             http://dewey.rug.ac.be
                             ......................




> that, do you? I understand what you mean, but the computer can never be the
> musician (it can be the musical instrument tho), cause even if youre talking

Pedro, of course I am serious (slightly). If you allow your computers to
make 'decisions' under certain conditions. And you define a range of
outcomes and make it 'rich' (=allow complexity) then, what is the
difference with a wetware musician.
A musical instrument cannot make decisions. That is the main difference. A
computer is much more than just a tool, and don't take me wrong, this
statement is not that important. Even Ada Lovelace (daughter of Lord Byron
and girlfriend of Charles Babbage) wrote an essay on the creative use of
Charles' invention, for literature and music... So it is a common idea all
these years later.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:55:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: per4m krap.maTTer.humanzsuk.
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>Well, this alone could lead to a whole new thread. But you dont really thin=
k
>that, do you? I understand what you mean, but the computer can never be the
>musician

bztalt.

>(it can be the musical instrument tho), cause even if youre talking
>of algorithmic or random composition, its always the programmer who
>determins what the computer will do (even in a random generator, there is a
>"formula" to calculate the false-random numbers).

nrL.ptr.nTz.

>> I guess you have to allow your music to change also
>
>Thats an important point, and in consonance with Nick Rothwell's advice, of
>NOT trying to recreat live what you do in a studio set.
>Its also vital to my music that I allow it to change, so I'm always looking
>for new chalenges and new solutions


zolut!onz.2prev!ousz.challengez.
prezent !z all 1 ckan know _ plydszpzt.
gasmakxkik.
!nduztr!aL d.k=F8nstrukt!on fuer d!e ganzeveLt.
4ooo.=F8rg4zmzp3rl1f3t1m3.







[p-un_kT-pr_o-T=96k_oL] =D8 f =D8 =D8 =D8 3
                 herausgegeben v=F8m internat!onalen
!nstitut f:ur ordnung |+| d!sziplin
                 hTTp://www.tezcat.com/~b8-[52c1
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:18:13 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: performing live
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

!njekt rh!thmz 4r=F8m p.






                                        =F8


3
                    T






                                                r






3




iExE.lz.+e.
deTr.end.auz.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 21:39:33 0
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Shannon O'Neill <shannon.oneill@SMTPGW.AFTRS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Algo-list

Apologies if this has already been answered.

To subscribe to algo-comp write to

Majordomo@serial.music.uiowa.edu with the following command
in the body of your email message:

    subscribe algo-comp <your email address>

Do join, it's a rather quiet list.

Shannon

> Date:    Fri, 5 Sep 1997 10:35:45 -0400
> From:    "Ing. Dimar Anez" <DAnez@IX.NETCOM.COM>
> Subject: Re: Algo-list
>
> Pedro Batista wrote:
>>
>> Can anyone please send me the algoritmic composition list's address.
>> I'm afraid I lost it.
>> (please email privately)
>> Thanks much
>> Pedro
>> <pbatista@colep.mailpac.pt>
>
>Please send me too, thanks!!
--
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:39:35 0
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Shannon O'Neill <shannon.oneill@SMTPGW.AFTRS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: thinking live performance

Pedro wrote:

> Well, its NOT an essencial tool, since I've manage to live without it till
> now, relying on synthesis alone, but I'm surely not anti-sampler. So I guess
> if I werent on a budget,  I'd invest in one right away.

The sampler has been (at least until I got a hard disk recorder) my
'essential' (primary) tool.  I don't use preset digital synths and I
don't use sample CDs, because I'm not interested in how some corporate
programmer thinks I should sound.  I do use analogue synths, but once
I get my custom-made filter bank (boy am I looking forward to it!) I'll
have little need for them...

It seems that the future lies in software, anyway.

> But, as I already said, I view samples as constructive tools, and my
> interest is first of all in the "found sound" ability (heard the term by
> spooky), that is the possibility of using your own unique home-brewed
> sounds. I DO NOT use other peoples material (not even sample-CDs), unless it
> falls on public domain and in the remote chance I want to make some kind of
> quotation.

There's nothing inherently more creative about using location recordings
over apropriated sounds.  It's what you do with it that counts! ;)
Many of the sounds that I use are (no surprise) apropriated, but they're
rarely recognisable - and if they are it's to make a point or comment.

Check out the works of Negativland; John Oswald; John Wall; Stock, Hausen
& Walkman, et al.  These are extreme examples of artists working with
'plunderphonics', but I defy anyone to say that these artists aren't
creative or skilled, or that they don't have interesting and original
ideas.

> they all end up sounding the same. But I firmly believe samplers can also be
> used as an instrument for inovation and originality.
> If it exists, and you can make music out of it, why not use it?

Si! Correcto!

>> (ii) Like I said about performance context: I'm unconvinced that
>> taking studio tracks onto the stage is a good way to go about
>> things. I find it much more refreshing to use one mindset for
>> recording and a completely different one for performing

Strangely, I started 'composing' in order to provide resources for my
improvised live performances.  Now the two are becoming more specialised
and separated.  My compositions are becoming more intricate and subtle
and I'm starting to concentrate on them more than on performing...

However I was first and foremost an improvisor, specialising in free
improvisation and I still consider that to be the most rewarding mode
of live performance - for the performer if not always the audience!

Depending on the gig, though, I now sometimes recreate tracks live
using sequencers (which still have an element of control) and even
occasionally tapes.  I'm not entirely comfortable with this, but if
that's what the audience wants and it's what I'm being paid for, well...

> (rhythm and others) beforehand, and then trigger them live, in any
> combination I choose. So I guess this would be "live sequencing" (I know
> you're gonna say this is an oxymoron).

Even in free improvised performances, I allow myself to use tapes
and sequences as elements with which to improvise, just not as
backing tracks.

> So I guess I'm outlining something like the "Rave-O-Lution" ?

Ugh!  Death to the 303 and 909! (though I admit that I still have a
soft spot for the 808 ;)


Shannon
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:33:15 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Anglo-list
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>Apologies if this has already been answered.
>
>To subscribe to algo-comp write to
>
>Majordomo@serial.music.uiowa.edu with the following command
>in the body of your email message:
>
>    subscribe algo-comp <your email address>
>
>Do join, it's a rather quiet list.

exaktl+e.
why !t kikx.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 11:35:05 PDT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         mark givens <markeg@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Steinbergs recycle
Content-Type: text/plain

   Dear list:
Which platform is steinbergs recycle for? I do not own a computer but
with the prices dropping (even for Power computers Mac-clones) I am
about to. Recycle is the program cited by thre Chemical brothers and all
the Jungle guys. I will base my platform choice on this issue as the two
platforms have rough parity( quality/   function wise) in the other
areas sample-editing, sequencing, recording.  Any type of software for
the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 12:13:16 PDT
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         mark givens <markeg@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject:      Pam lee nude
Content-Type: text/plain

    Dear List:
The original title" *8888888 was rejected by the software sorry!
888888= "sTEINBERGS RECYCLE"       but i couldnt put  that on the first
line.                                                    I wanna know
what platform steinbergs recycle is compatible with Mac or Pc.  I am
,finally, buying a computer and all thing being equal      ( mostly)
this is the deciding factors. Most Mac music programs    have a close
(functional ) opposite number for the Wintel. This is a recent
development but will probably get "worse". There is no equv to recycle
it is the best loop rearranger there is .

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:11:29 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: ude
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> I am
>,finally, buying a computer and all thing being equal      ( mostly)
>this is the deciding factors.

ubwhou!z

>Most Mac music programs    have a close
>(functional ) opposite number for the Wintel.

most + close  = higherrorfaktor flag set
funktional pc = dyzfunktional mak

>This is a recent
>development but will probably get "worse". There is no equv to recycle
>it is the best loop rearranger there is .

recykl=!znt dze best.loop.r.arr.anger.dere.!z.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 16:22:33 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Steinbergs recycle
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>Any type of software for
>the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.


proov !t.

equiv 4 max
equiv 4 lisa
equiv 4 supercollider
equiv 4 hyperpr!zm [shortl+e]
equiv 4 grm
equiv 4 sonikverkx
equiv 4 past
equiv 4 lemur
equiv 4 imw
equiv 4 soundhack
equiv 4 phonogramme
equiv 4 oversyte
equiv 4 oop
equiv 4 ae
equiv 4 ls
equiv 4 audioskulpt
equiv 4 co
equiv 4 kf
equiv 4 km
equiv 4 fd
equiv 4 ms
equiv 4 uk
equiv 4 sz

+ attempt 2 operate 4 ov thoze kode konta!nrz.
simultaneousl+e on 1-pc.  m!kr=F8schaFt _||-
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:20:32 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Timothy Kelly <midivox@IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pam lee nude, Recycle
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Hi All,
    Last time I was in Guitar Center, earlier this summer, they said Recycle
was out for both Mac and PC. I was looking for FreeStyle PC, but they didnt
have it in stock.
    The PC music market is 10,000 times bigger, so anyone that doesnt do a
port is missing out on a lot of sales.
    Happy Sounds
    Timothy Kelly
    MidiVox
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 6 Sep 1997 19:55:10 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: market.exe
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>    The PC music market is 10,000 times bigger,

logikl.
kondition 4matter 2 b.`b!ggr`
!t muzt suk.


>so anyone that doesnt do a
>port is missing out on a lot of sales.

plz.ecspla!n.dze logik ov that.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Sep 1997 12:28:28 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject:      Re: Steinbergs recycle
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hei you, Antiorp (or whatever your name is):

You mentioned a lot of software titles in the list below. Several of them I
know, others, I don't. Nevertheless, I think it would be very helpful for
everybody if you indicate at least one net address for each one of the
products. I will indicate for those I know. I hope you complete the job.

>Any type of software for
>the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.

BTW. There is also lots of software on the PC with little or no equivalent
in the Mac. This is just  silly war (as almost all the wars).

equiv 4 max - http://www.opcode.com/products/max/
equiv 4 lisa -
http://mirror.apple.com/Mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/gst/_Sound/(to download a
demo)
equiv 4 supercollider -
http://mirror.apple.com/Mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/gst/_Sound/(to download a
demo. If you want just information, maybe you can try the author:
james@clyde.as.utexas.edu; james@lcsaudio.com
equiv 4 hyperpr!zm [shortl+e] - http://www.arboretum.com/products.html (also
Ionizer)
equiv 4 grm - http://www.futuremusic.nl/grmtinfo.htm
equiv 4 sonikverkx - http://www.prosoniq.com/artist.html;
http://www.prosoniq.com/studio.html
(also Pandora)
equiv 4 past
equiv 4 lemur - http://mirror.apple.com/Mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/gst/_Sound/
(to download a demo - Really, this site is full of things related with
computer music. Well worth a visit).
equiv 4 imw
equiv 4 soundhack -
http://mirror.apple.com/Mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/gst/_Sound/
equiv 4 phonogramme
equiv 4 oversyte
equiv 4 oop
equiv 4 ae
equiv 4 ls
equiv 4 audioskulpt
equiv 4 co
equiv 4 kf
equiv 4 km
equiv 4 fd
equiv 4 ms
equiv 4 uk
equiv 4 sz

Well... I hope this helps someone to take more advantage of tons of
information that do not inform at all. I hope this link list be completed by
someone.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Sep 1997 10:42:30 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: kr!egswissenschaFt
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Hei you, Antiorp (or whatever your name is):

nonamez.juztvolunteers.

>You mentioned a lot of software titles in the list below. Several of them I
>know, others, I don't. Nevertheless, I think it would be very helpful for
>everybody if you indicate at least one net address for each one of the
>products. I will indicate for those I know. I hope you complete the job.

onl+e rezponzibilit+e !z 2rema!n !rresponsibl.

>>Any type of software for
>>the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.
>
>BTW. There is also lots of software on the PC with little or no equivalent
>in the Mac.

proov !t.


>This is just  silly war (as almost all the wars).


9 - dz!ez r dze fakTz.
warz == l!ez.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Sep 1997 21:22:14 +0100
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Fernando Manuel Rodrigues <mop11611@MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject:      kr!egswissenschaFt. Achtung... achtung... Spitfires!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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 >onl+e rezponzibilit+e !z 2rema!n !rresponsibl.
>
The actions will remain with those which make them.

>>>Any type of software for
>>>the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.
>>
>>BTW. There is also lots of software on the PC with little or no equivalent
>>in the Mac.
>
>proov !t.
>
No time for games. Find out for yourself.

BTW - Next time you want to use german for the subject, try to write it
correctly. Otherwise, remain with your silly code. That way, noone knows if
you are able to write correctly or not.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sun, 7 Sep 1997 16:26:11 -0500
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         =cw4t7abs <antiorp@TEZCAT.COM>
Subject:      Re: kr!egswissenschaFt. wAr.!n europe.[846543973.004 kampfbereit
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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spitfires suger.
britisch matter =3D krap maTTer.
al!gn_|+|_dupl!kate_humanz

> >onl+e rezponzibilit+e !z 2rema!n !rresponsibl.
>>
>The actions will remain with those which make them.

fueL 4 1-konstant state ov ag!tation.


>>>>Any type of software for
>>>>the Mac now has at least1 good Pc  equivalent. except in this area.
>>>
>>>BTW. There is also lots of software on the PC with little or no equivalen=
t
>>>in the Mac.
>>
>>proov !t.
>>
>No time for games. Find out for yourself.

jaja.dze feel!ng ov eskape.ov eskape.
du hast das spiel !n die hand.
zo. proov !t. oDr akzept !t.
`pc.s` suk.

>BTW - Next time you want to use german for the subject, try to write it
>correctly.

proov !t.

>Otherwise, remain with your silly code.

achso.vektor overflow.

>That way, noone knows if
>you are able to write correctly or not.

. humAnzsuk .







                 spelx2ng
                                 sTandardz
                         4uS engl!sch
                                                aRe
                 kreaT.d _|-  b!ll
                                                         gAtEz
                                        wh3n
                         hE
                                or_-Derz
        h!z pEopl.
                                                 2k=10mpile
                    1spElx2-che;ker
                                        mark.ed.uS engl!sch.


                   k:u_m_u|-..l_u_s
                              `082=3De8`21`


                                    ||---------|`-913
                                   [=3D=3D]  ||-------|9`173
                                    []  [=3D=3D]
                                         []



anti-parser vituperations of the 1995-96 era. have found that the rigidity
[bordering on stupidity] of humans can be helpful in discovering and
documenting all the little details of syntax which might otherwise remain
unnoticed.the current hypothesis is that =3Dcw4t7abs syntax can be described
by approximately 24 context-free phrase structure rules.






                 |=7F=7F|
               |=7F=7F=3D=3D=7F=7F|
       v ! R u s |=7F=7F| p u N K t


[p-un_kT-pr_o-T=96k_oL] =D8 f =D8 =D8 =D8 3
                 herausgegeben v=F8m internat!onalen
!nstitut f:ur ordnung |+| d!sziplin
                 hTTp://www.tezcat.com/~antiorp
=========================================================================
Date:         Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:11:50 0
Reply-To:     Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
Sender:       Electronic Music Discussion List <EMUSIC-L@AMERICAN.EDU>
From:         Shannon O'Neill <shannon.oneill@SMTPGW.AFTRS.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Goal-silt

>>Do join, it's a rather quiet list.

>exaktl+e.
>why !t kikx.

korr3kt. h! 5/N. zom det ska vara.

00ps

=)
