From listserv@bkhouse.cts.com Sat May 14 09:45:44 1994
Date: Sat, 14 May 94 01:58:25 PST
From: Mailing List Processor <listserv@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
Subject: Re: your ListSERV request "subscribe london@sunsite.unc.edu OrMed"
Status: O
X-Status: 

Per your request
	"subscribe london@sunsite.unc.edu OrMed"
'london@sunsite.unc.edu' was ADDED to the 'OrMed' mailing list.


------------------------ List introduction ---------------------------
Welcome to the Oriental Medicine Mailing List!!

I have received your subscription request for the OrMed mailing
list. Your name has been added to the subscriber roles, and you
should begin receiving messages within a day of getting this
welcome message. 

There are two things to do first:

1. Remember that all messages to the list should be mailed to 
   OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com.

2. Request the FAQ by sending a message with this line in the body
   to listserv@bkhouse.cts.com or OrMed-request@bkhouse.cts.com:

   FAQ ORMED

Now, on to other important matters...

The list handling software automatically adds a Reply-To: header
to all outgoing list messages. If your mailer looks for this,
replying to the list is as easy as any other mail reply. Always
be sure, however, to check the To: address of any message headed
for the list to make certain that the outgoing address is
OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com.

Now, there's just one thing left for you to do: post!

Thanks for participating in this list. I hope that with a forum
like this that we can help to advance our understanding of
Oriental Medicine as it makes its way into the West.

Norm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Attached below is a copy of the OrMed mailing list posting 
guidelines. Please read these and keep them in mind as you post
messages to the list. Feel free to email me should you have 
questions about the guidelines, or anything else in this document.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

                           Posting guidelines

THE OrMed MAILING LIST:

The list was formed in the late spring of 1994 to serve as a forum for
the discussion and advancement of Oriental Medicine.

POSTING GUIDELINES:

1. Try to keep in mind that your posts to the list go out to many
people, located around the world. Many of our subscribers pay for their 
email services, and international email is, in general, an expensive 
enterprise for someone along the line, even if not for the end user. If 
your posting is of a personal nature, or is part of a discussion with 
just one or two list members, consider using private email to continue 
the dialog. Always be aware that what you post to the list should be of 
interest to the majority of list members.

2. Stay on topic! This list is for the discussion of Oriental Medicine.
This list is NOT a place for debates about the entire theoretical model
of Oriental medicine. No East vs. West stuff here.

3. Please try to be polite in both your posts and your responses. Flaming
will not be tolerated and can get a member removed from the list in a 
hurry. It has no place in a forum such as this one.

4. If you choose to reply to a list message, be sure to trim quoted
text as much as possible. Again, this is a matter of courtesy as both
members who pay for mail by the character and those who read it over
slow modem connections do not appreciate 100 lines of quoted text for
a three line reply. (Those of us reading it over fast connections don't
appreciate it much, either.)

5. Finally, remember that this list is moderated (by me). I don't
generally get involved in a heavy-handed way, but those who consistently
violate the basic rule of "be considerate" may receive warnings from
me, or even be removed from the list. I also reserve the right to
reject any posting which is clearly not appropriate. Such a rejection
will always result in a message to the list stating the action and
the reason for doing so.

Thanks for your cooperation and contributions to this list. If we
all work together we can keep this list the valuable, informative
and useful tool that it is now.

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------


From nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com Sun May 15 09:00:36 1994
Date: Sat, 14 May 94 09:44:27 PST
From: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Welcome to the list!
Status: O
X-Status: 

This first message is going out to those of you who have joined us 
in the last two or three days. Welcome! I'm Norman Kraft, the list
administrator and moderator. 

For those of you who joined the list, but did not request the FAQ,
please do so. The FAQ is incomplete at this stage, but contains
important information. Since the posting guidelines went out with
the new subscriber introductory messages, you should all have a
general idea of my goals as moderator, but there is additional
information in the FAQ that might prove helpful to some of you.

Basically, there are two fairly simple rules here: 

1. Be polite (that means no flaming).
2. Stay on topic.

Otherwise, always remember that the OrMed mailing list is a family, 
not a town square.

Anyway, one thing that I plan to do regularly as a part of this
list is to post questions for discussion. It is very easy for a
list to get bogged down in minutiae, and I hope that these questions
will help us to keep our eyes on some broader issues as well. 

I would encourage everyone to give some thought to what we post.
It would be very easy for this list to turn into a long string of
"what herb is good for this ailment" type of questions, but we are
here, as it says in the introduction file, "to serve as a forum for
the discussion and advancement of Oriental Medicine." I encourage
topics on every subject from "what herb is good for this ailment"
to "how will Oriental medicine fit into national health care" to
"just how accurate are our translations of Chinese medical texts."
These are all important issues to the field, for both practioners
and patients.

I want to thank everyone (all dozen or so of you) for joining this
list and helping it to grow. I look forward to your input!

Norm.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Kraft                            INET  : nkraft@ucsd.edu (work)
Peptide-T Clinical Trial                or try: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com (home)
HIV Neurobehavioral Research Center     UUCP  : ucsd!nkraft
Dept of Psychiatry, School of Medicine  
University of California, San Diego          Usual disclaimers...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com Sun May 15 09:01:43 1994
Date: Sat, 14 May 94 09:51:33 PST
From: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Now that we have a few subscribers, I'd like to try to generate
discussion on a variety of broad topics. Hopefully these will
add to the usual list conversations and help keep our eyes on
a bigger picture.

I'll be posting a "Question for discussion" every month or so.
I would appreciate the input of all list members as we attempt
too meet our goal of using this list to discuss and *advance*
Oriental medicine in the West.

So, I put this first question to you:

What is the future of Oriental medicine in the West today? 


Norm.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Kraft                            INET  : nkraft@ucsd.edu (work)
Peptide-T Clinical Trial                or try: nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com (home)
HIV Neurobehavioral Research Center     UUCP  : ucsd!nkraft
Dept of Psychiatry, School of Medicine  
University of California, San Diego          Usual disclaimers...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com Tue May 17 21:49:30 1994
Date: Tue, 17 May 94 08:25:25 PST
From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Welcome to the list!
Status: O
X-Status: 

(Sorry if this is a repeat to anyone...)

This first message is going out to those of you who have joined us 
in the last two or three days. Welcome! I'm Norman Kraft, the list
administrator and moderator. 

For those of you who joined the list, but did not request the FAQ,
please do so. The FAQ is incomplete at this stage, but contains
important information. Since the posting guidelines went out with
the new subscriber introductory messages, you should all have a
general idea of my goals as moderator, but there is additional
information in the FAQ that might prove helpful to some of you.

Basically, there are two fairly simple rules here: 

1. Be polite (that means no flaming).
2. Stay on topic.

Otherwise, always remember that the OrMed mailing list is a family, 
not a town square.

Anyway, one thing that I plan to do regularly as a part of this
list is to post questions for discussion. It is very easy for a
list to get bogged down in minutiae, and I hope that these questions
will help us to keep our eyes on some broader issues as well. 

I would encourage everyone to give some thought to broader issues
before posting. It would be very easy for this list to turn into a 
long string of "what herb is good for this ailment" type of questions, 
but we are here, as it says in the introduction file, "to serve as a 
forum for the discussion and advancement of Oriental Medicine." I 
encourage topics on every subject from "what herb is good for this 
ailment" to "how will Oriental medicine fit into national health 
care" to "just how accurate are our translations of Chinese medical 
texts." These are all important issues to the field, for both 
practioners and patients.

I want to thank everyone (over 50 now!) for joining this list and 
helping it to grow. I look forward to your input!

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OrMed Mailing List              Administrative requests: 
List administrator: Norman Kraft          listserv@bkhouse.cts.com
OrMed-admin@bkhouse.cts.com or      Messages to the list:
nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com                    ormed@bkhouse.cts.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com Tue May 17 21:49:44 1994
Date: Tue, 17 May 94 08:33:56 PST
From: OrMed-Admin@bkhouse.cts.com
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Now that we have a good base of subscribers, I'd like to try a
first question for discussion. With your help, such questions 
will keep our eyes on broad issues, even as we discuss the small 
details of Oriental medicine. I'll try to post one of these every 
month or so. I would appreciate the input of all list members as 
we attempt too meet our goal of using this list to discuss and 
*advance* Oriental medicine in the West.

So, I put this first question to you:

What is your perception of the future of Oriental medicine in the 
West today? 


Norm.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The OrMed Mailing List              Administrative requests: 
List administrator: Norman Kraft          listserv@bkhouse.cts.com
OrMed-admin@bkhouse.cts.com or      Messages to the list:
nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com                    ormed@bkhouse.cts.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------------





From lj@ursa-major.spdcc.com Wed May 18 10:53:53 1994
Date: Tue, 17 May 94 12:18:16 -0400
From: Leonard Jacobs <lj@ursa-major.spdcc.com>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 


>
>What is your perception of the future of Oriental medicine in the 
>West today? 
>
>
>Norm.
I think that the first change in the perception and use of Oriental Medicine 
in the West, will be a clear and decisive split among the various modalities 
generally lumped together and called "Oriental Medicine." In other words, we 
can start (and this "we" means those of us on this list) by defining what we 
mean by "Oriental Medicine" and clearly delineating what is agreed to be on 
the list from what is not. If this is not done soon, it will be done by the 
AMA & their associated colleagues and then we will be excluded.

My 2 cents.
Len Jacobs
lj@newage.com



From mstargrove@igc.apc.org Wed May 18 10:54:22 1994
Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 21:33:12 -0700
From: Mitch Bebel Stargrove <mstargrove@igc.apc.org>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

hello all -
I find that the greatest virtue of Chinese medicine is the diagnostic system
I look forward to a day when all practitioners learn to use this model

in my own work I often refer to myself as a Chinese Naturopath
because I think in terms of Chinese medicine
not always but that is the first mode and the default

I know that these are still reductionist categories but they are large, 
interweaving and flexible boxes

In particular, I am working with many others, in the context of the IBIS 
project, on organizing homeopathic remedies, as groups of remedies and as 
stages in a progression, along the structure of Chinese medicine
homeopathy tends to get lost in too many particulars, the masters see the 
patterns, Chinese medicine offers a set of patterns

I also find the imagmatic character of the physiologic descriptions and 
pathologies is something that patients can relate to better than the 
latinized symptomatology of standard Western medicine

further I will offer the challenging statement that I think many of the 
great innovators in the new era of medicine will be those who combine 
naturopathic medicine, including homeopathy, with Chinese medicine; note 
that here I am talking of heritages and styles not merely degrees.

finally I would hope to tell everyone of the greater understanding I have 
gained as to the trajectory of Chinese medicine and the 
interrelationships among the aspects of Chinese/Oriental  medicine
that I have gained studying the history of Chinese medicine,
read Unschuld and Bob Flaws,
TCM is not necessarily representative of the greater current of Chinese 
medicine; herbalization of acupuncture does not always provide for the 
best analysis and treatment
on the other side, pulse diagnosis was taught in Western medical schools 
until the early 20th century..
likewise, I foind it interesting how oftyen the esoteric in the Western 
medical(and scientific)  tradition is disowned while we readily accept 
feng shui, Qi, Tai Qi, Qi Gong,...
the traditions of tthe West are rooted in alchemy, shamanism, magick, 
astrology,
it's not all true or useful but we can learn much from our own roots,
that principle of Jing applies here to re nourishment and endurance

Blessings and Good health to all,
Mitch Stargrove, ND, LAc

PS a set of conferences called "Caduceus" are available to practitioners 
on the IGC network, contact me if you are interested; we are working on 
making them available to all InterNet

 


From vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca Fri May 20 08:34:50 1994
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 12:24:01 EDT
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

>
>What is your perception of the future of Oriental medicine in the 
>West today? 
>
>
>Norm.

Hi folks,

Personally, I'm very optimistic about the future of Oriental Medicine
here. Many people are looking for a rational, consistent, coherent,
and reputable alternative to Western medicine. As far as I can tell,
the Oriental system is the only alternative healing system that can
really offer this. Despite the growing number of "New Age" therapies,
Oriental therapies are the ones that many people consistently turn to
for help with serious health problems and illness. If Western medicine
is failing us, something will have to fill the void. I believe that
Oriental Medicine is in a good position to do that.

Another possibility is that Oriental medicine will change as it
becomes more established in the West. The example of Zen Buddhism
comes to mind. Since its transmission to the West, Japanese Zen
has undergone many changes - for better or for worse. I expect
something similar may happen to OrMed as Western culture assimilates
it. Whether we approve of them or not, hybrid modalities may
become more prevalent.

This is all MHO, naturally :)

Peace,

	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca




From mstargrove@igc.apc.org Fri May 20 08:35:31 1994
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 23:02:26 -0700
From: Mitch Bebel Stargrove <mstargrove@igc.apc.org>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Welcome to the list!
Status: O
X-Status: 

THE ACCESS TO MEDICAL TREATMENT ACT

note: please repost and circulate!!!
add: let's get acupuncturists included and support this bill!!!

Senator Thomas Daschle (SD) has introduced a bill entitled 
The Access to Medical Treatment Act, which would guarantee 
that individuals may choose to be treated by any licensed health
care, practitioner (defined in the bill as "any properly licensed 
medical doctor, osteopath, chiropractor or naturopath") with any 
method of medical treatment the individual desires, so long as 
(1) there is no evidence that the treatment is dangerous; 
(2) the patient is fully informed of its side effects; and 
(3) the treatment falls within the scope of the provider's
practice. The goal of this legislation is to guarantee access
no matter what kind of health care reform package is passed.

The next page of this fax (or letter, if we don't have your
fax number) is a list of members of the Senate's Committee
on Labor and Human Resources, along with their fax
numbers. Please fax a letter to all these Senators urging
their support for the bill, and their cosponsorship if at
all possible.  Highest priority is if you reside in their state
or have had prior interactions with them or their staff.
However, it is important that all members of the 
committee get letters urging their support, so please
do all of them if you can.  In addition, all organizations
(i.e., state associations, specialty societies) please fax
or write directly to Senator Daschle and thank him for
introducing this bill and pledge your support to him
in promoting it. 

Sample letter:

The Honorable Tom Harkin
US Senate
Washington, DC
Fax No. (202) 224-9369

Dear Senator Harkin:

I am writing to urge your support, and you, cosponsorship
if at all possible, of The Access to Medical Treatment Act,
introduced by Senator Thomas Daschle.  As someone who
has experienced the beneficial effects of natural medicine
and alternative therapies and appreciates their cost-
effectiveness, I am extremely concerned that, whatever kind
of reform is attempted for our health care system, we protect
the public's access to such non-conventional approaches to 
disease and wellness.  It is well past time that we make a
national commitment to freedom of choice in health care. 
My friends and family join me in urging your support
for this legislation.

Thank you very much.  
Sincerely,


practitioners:
We also need to get the word out to all alternative practitioners 
and their patients, so if each of you will work with your state 
association to publicize this extraordinary opportunity, we will 
be that much further along the, path.  Eventually, we want all 
patients to be writing these letters.

THANK YOU!




SENATE  COMMITTEE  ON  LABOR  AND  HUMAN  RESOURCES

Name                        Office Number    Fax Number    State 
              (all 202 area codes)

Edward Kennedy              224-4543     224-5128     (comm.)
Claiborne Pell              224-4642     224-4680       RI
Howard Metzenbaum           224-2315     224-6519       OH
Christopher Dodd            224-2823     224-1083       CT
Paul Simon                  224-2152     224-0868       OH
Tom Harkin                  224-3254     224-9369       IA
Barbara Mikulski            224-4654     224-8858       MD
Jeff Bingaman               224-5521     224-2852       NM
Paul David Wellstone        224-5641     224-8438       MN
Harris Wofford              224-6324     224-4161       PA
Nancy Kassebaum             224-4774     224-6510       KS
James Jeffords              224-5141     224-8330       VT
Dan Coats                   224-5623     224-1966       IN
Judd Gregg                  224-3324     224-4952       NM
Strom Thurmond              224-5972     224-1300       SC
Orrin Hatch                 224-5251     224-6331       UT
Dave Durenberger            224-3244     224-9931       MN




of course edit as you feel appropriate!!




From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Sat May 21 13:16:41 1994
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 23:43:48 -0500
From: Gavin Hougham <ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Vanessa writes:

 "... If Western medicine is failing us, something will have to fill the
void. I believe that
Oriental Medicine is in a good position to do that."

I'm somewhat new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm stepping on any toes,
but for my taste this is really way too general a criticism to reflect upon
with any degree of equanimity.  Vanessa may have some very good specific
criticisms of Western medical practice or epistemologies (many of which I
would no doubt agree with), but to cast one's net this wide is to virtually
announce that any discussion on the topic is, for Vanessa (at least as I
read her here), unlikely to be persuasive or even necessary.  Do you really
mean to state your case this strongly?

Gavin

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gavin Hougham
University of Chicago
Department of Sociology
1126 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
   E-mail:  gwh2@midway.uchicago.edu
   Office:  Department of General Internal Medicine
               (312) 702-6735



From HALLIEJW@uci.edu Tue May 24 11:58:29 1994
Date: 23 May 1994 13:54:46 -0700
From: "Hallie J. WILLOUGHBY" <HALLIEJW@uci.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hallie's Reply To Your Message
                    RE>>Question for discussion:
Gavin,

Speaking from personal experience I personally believe Vanessa's statement is
accurate.  Western doctors and medicine could learn a lot from Oriental
practices - not only in diagnoisis but in being concerned about the patient's
welfare and not how much money they can make in one day.

I spent two years being shuttled from doctor to doctor seeking treatment for
some very specific problems without any results at all.  I was given tests
over and over again that had been proven negative in some cases just the day
before.   A couple of the doctors even suggested I see a psychiatrist.   I
emphasize this because none of these individuals seem to really CARE if I was
in pain nor did they really LISTEN to what I was saying to them.  I would be
in their offices doubled up in pain and they would tell me it is was all in
my head.   There were many times my stomach was swollen twice it's size, many
periods or no periods at all, etc. and that was a sure sign that it was all
in my mind.

Anyway, I finally managed to find a doctor who recognized my problem as
endometriosis.  She did a laparoscopy and helped to some degree to start the
healing process.  However, the most significant healing I've had has been
with a Chinese doctor practicing Oriental medicine whom I accidently
discovered after the surgery.  I only wish I could have found him two years
ago because the nature of care is significantly different and  better and
with far more positive results.   

Hallie
--------------------------------------
Date: 5/21/94 3:45 AM
To: Hallie Willoughby
From: The OrMed Mailing List
Vanessa writes:

 "... If Western medicine is failing us, something will have to fill the
void. I believe that
Oriental Medicine is in a good position to do that."

I'm somewhat new to this forum, so forgive me if I'm stepping on any toes,
but for my taste this is really way too general a criticism to reflect upon
with any degree of equanimity.  Vanessa may have some very good specific
criticisms of Western medical practice or epistemologies (many of which I
would no doubt agree with), but to cast one's net this wide is to virtually
announce that any discussion on the topic is, for Vanessa (at least as I
read her here), unlikely to be persuasive or even necessary.  Do you really
mean to state your case this strongly?

Gavin

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gavin Hougham
University of Chicago
Department of Sociology
1126 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
   E-mail:  gwh2@midway.uchicago.edu
   Office:  Department of General Internal Medicine
               (312) 702-6735



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From zrosenberg@electriciti.com Tue May 24 11:58:38 1994
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 14:23:46 PST
From: "Zev J. Rosenberg" <zrosenberg@electriciti.com>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Norm (and other readers):
    This is a broad, simple, narrow, and complex question to answer; where
shall I begin?
Chinese medicine has taken on a whole new life and existence in migrating
to the West. . .it has 
become the medicine for our blind spot as a post-technological
civilization.  By recalibrating the equilibrium of body, mind, and spirit,
it is just the remedy for the sometimes (some would say all -the-time)
schizophrenia of the body/mind/spirit schism that developed with the
technical specialization of modern biomedicine and classical physics.  But,
alas, we are in the brave new world of quantum mechanics, chaos theory, and
complexity, which on close examination, show much in common with the logic
and theory of classical Chinese medicine (space is perhaps too limited to
elaborate here, perhaps later in print).  It is here, I believe where the
convergence of Eastern and Western thought will occur.
   I agree with Mitch Stargrove that there will  be crossfertilization of
naturopathic and Chinese medicine on these shores, and I look forward for
the exchange and development in global medicine.  It's not that biomedicine
cannot be part of the mix, but that the tremendous information gathered by
modern medicine is empirical, and must be looked at from a more global
perspective.  In my opinion, the attempted merger in modern China of TCM
and Western medicine is a dismal failure, and has led to the second-rate
practice of both when merged ("extra-strength" Yin Qiao with added drugs is
one example).  This can only lead to dilution of Chinese medical theory and
principles, and a superficial understanding of Western medical ideas.  To
my mind, only such individuals as Dr. Yves Requena have the required
knowledge to pull off this synthesis without compromising either system.
   Alas, the great "fly in the ointment" is the present political situation
with the deck of cards named AAAOM, AAMA, Alliance, Schools, NCCA, etc. 
The profession is still in an immature phase, and I hope all parties will
keep the channels open, through dialogue and discussion, rather than
collapse of qi developing by rigid positions.  We should all stay hitched
to Emerson's proverbial star, and aim always to better our medical
practice, learn all we can, inspire others, and grow in a way that is
inclusive of everyone. . .but never at the price of tarnishing the diamond
of Chinese medicine. 

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac.




From MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU Thu May 26 05:10:23 1994
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 10:28:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: San Diego/NY OM conference
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Colleague:
 
You are invited to share 4 days at the Pacific or 
Atlantic Symposium in either gorgeous San Diego or 
dazzling New York. 
 
Our theme this year is Case Studies for Success. 
Each presenter will personalize their lecture or 
workshop to bring it alive with real case studies. 
You will gain insights into our most successful 
practitioners' thought processes to enable you to 
achieve success with their particular treatment 
methods. 
 
 
PACIFIC SYMPOSIUM (SAN DIEGO, AUG. 18-21, 1994)
ATLANTIC SYMPOSIUM (NEW YORK, OCT. 7-10, 1994)
 
1-800-729-0941 
Sponsored by Pacific College of Oriental 
Medicine and Pacific Symposium 
 
FEATURING:
 
Shudo Denmei
 
Dr. Shudo began practicing acupuncture in 1959. He 
is currently president of the Ohita Acupuncture 
Association and a member of the Selection Committee 
for the Manaka Prize. He is the author of the 
RIntroduction to Meridian TherapyS, a best seller 
in Japan and America. In addition to his 
participation in Atlantic Symposium, Dr. Shudo will 
present a full day of instruction on Oct. 6.
 
Full-day Workshop (Oct. 6)
 
 
Iona Marsaa Teeguarden, M.A.
Iona Teeguarden is the originator of Jin Shin Do, a 
unique synthesis of acupuncture, Taoist philosophy, 
and Western psychology. She is the author of "The 
Acupressure Way of Health: Jin Shin Do" and "The 
Joy of Feeling: Bodymind Acupressure".
 
Lecture: Trance and Circumstance: Wei-Wu-Wei
(New York)
 
Workshop: Taoism as Hypnotism
(New York) 
 
Ohashi
Ohashi founded the Ohashi Institute in 1974. He has 
taught his trademark technique, Ohashiatsu, to 
thousands of students and has treated thousands of 
clients, including many well-known celebrities. He 
is the author of five popular books, as well as a 
series of videotapes.
 
Lecture: Ohashiatsu: High Touch for a Hi-Tech Age
(San Diego)
 
Workshop: Ohashiatsu: As Good to Give as to Receive
(San Diego)
 
Gabriel Stux, M.D.
 
Best known in the United States as the co-author, 
with Bruce Pomeranz, of the RBasics of AcupunctureS 
and contributor to the RScientific Bases of 
AcupunctureS, Dr. Stux is the author of 30 
scientific papers and ten books on acupuncture in 
German or English. He is a medical doctor as well 
as an international acupuncture teacher. He has 
focused his studies recently upon the correlation 
of acupuncture meridians and chakras, both in 
theory and practice. 
 
Lecture and Workshop: Chakras and Acupuncture 
Points
(San Diego)
 
Janet Zand, L.Ac.
Janet Zand is the co-founder, formulator, and 
clinical researcher for McZand Herbal, Inc., a 
manufacturer of herbal/nutritional products. She 
has published articles in 11 popular magazines and 
has been an important contributor to Pacific 
Symposium in the past with topics ranging from 
homeopathy to understanding lab work via Oriental 
theory.
 
Lecture: Homeopathy: A Piece of the Puzzle
(San Diego)
 
Workshop: Homeopathy and Chinese Medicine
(San Diego) 
 
Lillian Lesefko
 
Lillian Lesefko has spent many years researching 
ancient texts on facial diagnosis and correlating 
her findings to Western studies. She originally 
learned the art of face reading from her Chinese 
motherUs family and combines this knowledge with 
her degree in psychology from UCLA. We welcome 
Lillian back to Pacific Symposium for the second 
time. Her lecture was one of last yearUs surprise 
highlights. This yearUs more advanced topics will 
be of particular interest and value to 
practitioners and their patients.
 
Lecture: Critical Transitions: Using Facial 
Diagnosis to Recognize Life Crises
(San Diego)  
 
Workshop: Mother's and Father's Influence: 
Recognizing Their Signs by Facial Diagnosis
(San Diego)
 
Roger Jahnke, L.Ac.
 
Roger has been teaching Qi Gong for 15 years. He 
has been a popular lecturer at most the major 
conferences in the profession of Oriental medicine.
 
Lecture: Qi Gong: The Most Profound Medicine
(New York)
 
Workshop: Quickening the Medicine Within You
(New York)  
 
Alex Tiberi, L.Ac.
 
Alex Tiberi has established himself as one of the 
most popular lecturers in the profession today. 
Over the last 15 years he has become fluent in 
almost every major style of Oriental medical 
treatment. His integration of both Eastern and 
Western medical systems impart confidence to 
students and patients alike. Alex is so respected 
within the medical community that University of 
California medical students observe his practice as 
part of their rotations. Alex is the head of 
Department of Oriental Medicine at Pacific College.
 
Lecture: Skin Lesions: A Traditional Chinese 
Medical Approach 
(San Diego and New York)
 
Workshop: The Preparation of Herbal Plasters for 
the Treatment of Orthopedic and External Injuries
(San Diego and New York)
 
Lecture and Workshop: Pediatric Tui Na
(New York)
 
In E.Moon
 
Applied Kinesiology and Korean Constitutional 
Theory have been combined in a fascinating, 
practical, and effective way by In E. Moon. 
Building upon the works of Dr. Do Won Kwan and Dr. 
Yom, Dr. Moon uses refinements of applied 
kinesiology to identify the patientUs constitution. 
Appropriately treating the constitution can lead to 
resolution of stubborn health problems, often 
without the need of directly addressing the 
symptomatic complaints.
 
Lecture and Workshop: Symmetry Acupuncture and 
Manipulation
 
(San Diego)
 
Kiiko Matsumoto
 
An ever popular presenter and practitioner, Kiiko 
Matsumoto is the co-author of RFive Elements and 
Ten StemsS, RExtraordinary VesselsS, and RHara 
Diagnosis: Reflections on the SeaS. In addition to 
her participation in Pacific/Atlantic Symposium, 
Kiiko will present a two full days of instruction 
on Aug. 22-23 and Oct. 11-12.
 
Workshop: Sore and Painful Muscles
(San Diego and New York)
 
Two-day Workshop: Knee Problems (Day 1) and 
Respiratory Problems (Day 2) 
(San Diego, Aug. 22-23 and New York, Oct. 11-12)
 
Whitfield Reaves, L.Ac.
 
Whitfield Reaves has provided sports enhancement 
and rehabilitation for member of the Santa Fe Ski 
Team; Cindi Staiger, 1987 winner of the Race Across 
America; Cherie Moore, 1986 winner of the Race 
Across America; and Julie Brown, Avon Marathon 
winner and member of the 1984 U.S. Olympic team. In 
1984, he provided Oriental medical care at the Los 
Angeles Olympic Games. In short, if youUre an 
athlete, Whit Reaves is someone you want on your 
team. If you are interested in working with 
athletes, you will want to study with Whit at 
Pacific Symposium. 
 
Lecture: The Enhancement of Performance
(San Diego)
 
Workshop: Treatment of Lower Extremity Sports 
Injuries
(San Diego)
 
David and Holly Eagle
 
David and Holly began working with Chinese medicine 
in 1973. In addition to maintaining a busy clinical 
practice, they are popular teachers as well as 
herbal consultants. They are currently co-authoring 
a text with Kiiko Matsumoto on acupuncture 
techniques.
 
Lecture: Urinary Incontinence
(San Diego)
 
Workshop: The Good, Bad, and the Ugly: Recognizing 
Quality in Bulk Chinese Herbs
(San Diego)
 
Ted Kaptchuk
 
Dr. Kaptchuk manages to stay of the cutting edge of 
the development of Oriental medicine in the West. 
Currently, Ted is a research associate at Boston's 
Beth Israel Hospital. His work there includes 
developing a course on alternative medicines for 
Harvard Medical School. Recently he has served as 
an advisor for the Office of Alternative Medicine 
at NIH. His most recent publication (co-author of a 
meta-analysis of cognitive behavioral interventions 
in hyertension) marks a new interest in statistics 
and the scientific method.
 
Lecture: Tang Dynasty Chinese Medicine: Sun Si-
miao's "Supplemental Wings to the Thousand Ducat 
Prescriptions" (Qian jin yi fang)
(San Diego and New York)
 
Workshop: Pain and Suffering: An Examination From a 
Clinical Perspective
(San Diego and New York)
 
Michael Smith, M.D.
 
Dr. Smith is internationally recognized as the 
authority on the treatment of chemical dependency 
with acupuncture. Pacific and Atlantic Symposia 
have introduced him to the profession as an I Ching 
scholar and unwavering proponent of the wisdom and 
validity of Oriental medical theory. This year he 
presents what may be his most important lecture to 
date.
 
Lecture: Western Medicine and Qi or What Happens 
When Antibiotics No Longer Work?
(New York)
 
Workshop: Chinese Medicine and Mental Health
(New York)
 
Yves Requena, M.D.
 
Dr. Requena is the well-known author of "Terrains 
of Pathology in Acupuncture" and the founder of the 
European Institute of Qi Gong. His validation of 
Oriental medical theory in both a traditional and 
Western framework marks an important step in the 
continued acceptance of the principles of Oriental 
medicine. 
 
Lecture: The Lung in Oriental Medicine
(New York)
 
Workshop: The Metal Constitution
(New York) 
 
Elaine Stern, L.Ac.
 
Ms. Stern practices acupuncture and Chinese herbal 
medicine and is faculty member at the Pacific 
Institute of Oriental Medicine in New York City. 
Following graduation from the TriState Institute, 
she apprenticed with Dr. John Shen and Dr. Leon 
Hammer, and began her herbal studies with Ted 
Kaptchuk. She continued her herbal studies at the 
Xi Yuan Hospital in Beijing.
 
Lecture and Workshop: The Development of an 
Oriental Medical Practice: Adapting an Ancient 
Model in the Modern World
(New York)
 
Lonny S. Jarret, M.S., M.Ac.
 
Lonny Jarret is a graduate of the Traditional 
Acupuncture Institute. Since his work at TAI, he 
has been a serious student of Leon Hammer and Ted 
Kaptchuk. He is the author of over a dozen 
published articles on Chinese medicine.
 
Lecture and Workshop: Treating Betrayal of Intimacy 
with Chinese Medicine
(New York)
 
 
Yi Tian Ni
Professor at Pacific College of Oriental
Medicine
 
 
Yan Wu
Professor at Pacific College of Oriental
Medicine
 
 
Special Guest in San Diego
 
Ravi Shankar
Enjoy a discussion and sampling of the healing and 
meditative powers of the Indian raga with this 
world-reknowned master of the sitar. 
 
Special Guest in New York
 
Swami Beyondananda.
Laughter is the best medicine. Prove it to yourself 
with the master of New Age hilarity, Swami 
Beyondananda.
 
 
Special extended events (San Diego)
 
Kiiko Matsumoto
Aug. 22-23
$275/225 before July 18
Attendance strictly limited to 50 
 
Special extended events (New York)
 
Shudo Denmai
Oct. 6
$125
Attendance strictly limited to 50 
 
Kiiko Matsumoto
Oct. 11-12
$275/225 before Sept. 7
Attendance strictly limited to 50 
 
 
 
3 toll-free steps to the Legends of Bodywork
 
1. Call the Pacific/Atlantic Symposium  at 1-800-
729-0941
or mail registration form to Pacific College of 
Oriental Medicine attn. Legends, 7445 Mission 
Valley Rd. Ste. 105, San Diego,CA 92108
 
2. For airline reservations and great fares, call 
Certified Travel Consultants at 1-619-437-4477. 
 
3. Important: For Hotel Reservations, call the 
hotel of your choice before July 26 for San Diego 
and Sept. 7 for New York to ensure special rates. 
Rooms sell out, guaranteed! 
 
SAN DIEGO
 
The Catamaran Hotel 
3999 Mission Blvd., San Diego, CA 92109
1-800-288-0770 or 1-619-488-1081
$119 single or double occupancy
 
Grosvenor Hotel/Super 8 Mission Bay
4540 Mission Bay Dr., San Diego, CA 92109
1-619-274-7888
$60, single, double, triple, or quad
(3-4 miles from the Catamaran, limited free 
transportation)
 
IMPORTANT! Say you are with Pacific Symposium.
 
NEW YORK
 
New York Hotel Pennsylvania
401 Seventh Ave., New York, New York 10001
1-212-736-5000 or 1-800-223-8585 
$99, single or double, extra persons up to 4, $10.
 
IMPORTANT! Say you are with Atlantic Symposium.
 
DAY CARE
 
At Pacific Symposium, day care is provided by Sada 
Anand Kar Khalsa. $5 per hour. Call 619-291-8314 
before Aug. 12 for reservations.
 
At Atlantic Symposium, day care is available and 
provided by the Hotel Pennsylvania. Call the hotel 
for details and reservations.
 
Now the Symposium can be a real vacation for you, 
even if you have kids.
 
 
 



From mpg@ipuki.soest.hawaii.edu Thu May 26 10:42:33 1994
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 18:24:04 -1000
From: "M. Patrick Goda" <mpg@ipuki.soest.hawaii.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Cc: mpg@ipuki.soest.hawaii.edu
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Zev Rosenberg writes:
***************************************************************************
.. But,
alas, we are in the brave new world of quantum mechanics, chaos theory, and
complexity, which on close examination, show much in common with the logic
and theory of classical Chinese medicine (space is perhaps too limited to
elaborate here, perhaps later in print).  It is here, I believe where the
convergence of Eastern and Western thought will occur.
***************************************************************************

I am a graduate student who is very interested in what I see happening
around me in regards to chaos theory and ideas associated with
complexity.  I would be very interested to hear more details about the
connections to Chinese medicine that you alluded to in your post.
Thank you!

M. Patrick Goda


From dorr@civix.win.net Thu May 26 10:43:49 1994
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 23:18:46
From: David Orr <dorr@civix.win.net>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Another Opinion
Status: O
X-Status: 


FORWARDED MAIL -------
From: srk7a@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Samuel R. Kaplan)
Date: 20 May 94
Originally Posted On: sci.med.nursing

In article <2082600004@cdp>,
Mitch Bebel Stargrove  <mstargrove@igc.apc.org> wrote:
>THE ACCESS TO MEDICAL TREATMENT ACT
>
>note: please repost and circulate!!!
>
>Senator Thomas Daschle (SD) has introduced a bill entitled 
>The Access to Medical Treatment Act, which would guarantee 
>that individuals may choose to be treated by any licensed health
>care, practitioner (defined in the bill as "any properly licensed 
>medical doctor, osteopath, chiropractor or naturopath") with any 
>method of medical treatment the individual desires, so long as 
>(1) there is no evidence that the treatment is dangerous; 
>(2) the patient is fully informed of its side effects; and 
>(3) the treatment falls within the scope of the provider's
>practice. The goal of this legislation is to guarantee access
>no matter what kind of health care reform package is passed.

Why should one support this bill--it doesn't include witch doctors and
native shamans. Seriously, anyone who has read the latest Consumer
Reports can clearly understand that many "practitioners" are engaging
in quackery.  To obtain federal subsidies for disciplines started by
grocery store clerks is a waste of public funds and gives an unearned
imprimatur to them.  On the face of it, this bill should be opposed,
unless there is another argument to the contrary.
--
*************************************************************************
Sam Kaplan                                      804 982 5819
University of Virginia                          804 982 5524 FAX
Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service         kaplan@virginia.edu



From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Sat May 28 05:13:37 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 02:18:36 -0500
From: Gavin Hougham <ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Z've wrote: 

 It's not that biomedicine
>cannot be part of the mix, but that the tremendous information gathered by
>modern medicine is empirical, and must be looked at from a more global
>perspective...  ...The profession is still in an immature phase, and I hope
all parties will keep the channels open, through dialogue and discussion,
rather than
>collapse of qi developing by rigid positions. 

When I queried Vanessa on her "failure of western medicine" argument, Hallie
responded passionately to give a personal account of how western medicine
had failed HER.  I certainly do sympathize with her troubled encounters that
seemed to have led to therapeutic dead ends, however, I would like to align
myself with a more tempered view as offered by Z'ev, above.  It is true that
many encounters with physicians are disappointing, especially for those with
what turn out to be very challenging diagnostic presentations.  Other
encounters can be more or less disappointing for other reasons, rooted
perhaps in gender, class and race differences between patients and
physicians.   Western medicine does not (should not) claim universal
knowledge of all problems, but it pains me when I hear people trashing
western medicine because of its many individual failures.  Western medicine
does claim that its knowledge is based on a particular TYPE of knowledge
accretion (science), and that practices based on this knowledge are more or
less verifiable or falsifiable.  (I could argue that these claims are itself
problematic, but that's for another discussion.)  I'll bet a lot of folks
here on the forum had polio vaccinations in childhood that have prevented a
lot of pathology.

Anyway, Hallie, thanks for responding, and Z'ev, thanks for the tempering
admonition.

Gavin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gavin Hougham
University of Chicago
Department of Sociology
1126 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
   E-mail:  gwh2@midway.uchicago.edu
   Office:  Department of General Internal Medicine
               (312) 702-6735



From vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca Sat May 28 05:13:45 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 17:56:42 EDT
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

I (Vanessa) originally wrote:

	"...If Western medicine is failing us, something will have to
	fill the void. I believe that Oriental Medicine is in a good
	position to do that."

Gavin responded:

	"...for my taste this is really way too general a criticism
	to reflect upon with any degree of equanimity. Vanessa may 
	have some very good specific criticisms of Western medical
	practices or epistemologies (many of which I would no doubt
	agree with), but to cast one's net this wide is to virtually
	announce that any discussion on the topic is, for Vanessa (at
	least as I read her here), unlikely to be persuasive or even
	necessary. Do you really mean to state your case this strongly?"

First let me say, to Gavin and others, I'm sincerely sorry if I've
stepped on *your* toes. It was not, and is not, my intention to
criticize Western medicine here.

What I was trying to point to with that statement was what I perceive
as a growing popular opinion to the effect that "Western medicine is
failing us". I'm basing this on the increasing number of letters, 
articles, and editorials in local press and publications; the emergence
of local public interest groups stating this opinion; the disappoint-
ments frequently expressed to me by clients (I am a Shiatsu therapist)
who feel that their doctors have been unable to help them, etc. All
of this indicates to me that there is a good chance that the interest
in and demand for Oriental Medicine will increase in the near future.
In relation to the topic presented for discussion, the future of OM
looks quite promising to me.

My own opinions about Western medicine are somewhat more sophisticated
(I hope!) than simply "it is failing us". But as our moderator has
kindly pointed out to us all, this is not the place for the discussion
of such things. I apologize if I didn't make it clear in my original
posting that I was referring to the current social climate and its
implications for the future of OM, and not my personal views on
Western medical philosophy, theory, research, education, clinical practice, 
or politics.

As to the possibility of a discussion on these topics, if you are
interested perhaps you could ask if anyone would like to engage in
a private e-mail discussion with you. It would, however, be a
difficult conversation to manage, since the topic is so complex
and opinions on it are generally strongly held.

Peace,

	Vanessa


	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca



From vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca Sat May 28 05:13:53 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 18:22:54 EDT
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hallie writes:

	"Western doctors and medicine could learn a lot from
	Oriental practices - not only in diagnosis but in being
	concerned about the patient's welfare....
	[portion of message deleted]
	A couple of doctors even suggested I see a psychiatrist.
	I emphasize this because none of these individuals seem
	to really CARE if I was in pain nor did they really
	LISTEN to what I was saying to them."

I believe an important contribution of Oriental Medicine is this
listening to the person; that is, the taking of an individual's
experience at face value. Suffering cannot be seperated from the
person suffering. Pain isn't something you can hold in your hand,
look at under a microscope, or philosophize about. The Oriental
tradition seems clearly to recognize that treatment should be aimed
at eliminating (or at least reducing) the pain and loss of functioning
as it is experienced by the person. This is a truly compassionate 
approach, and leads to more positive results, as Hallie attests here.

Peace,

	Vanessa

	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca



From Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU Sat May 28 14:27:31 1994
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 10:01:32 EDT
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Another Opinion
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>Senator Thomas Daschle (SD) has introduced a bill entitled 
>>The Access to Medical Treatment Act, which would guarantee 
>>that individuals may choose to be treated by any licensed health
>>care, practitioner (defined in the bill as "any properly licensed 
>>medical doctor, osteopath, chiropractor or naturopath") with any 
>>method of medical treatment the individual desires, so long as 
>>(1) there is no evidence that the treatment is dangerous; 
>>(2) the patient is fully informed of its side effects; and 
>>(3) the treatment falls within the scope of the provider's
>>practice. The goal of this legislation is to guarantee access
>>no matter what kind of health care reform package is passed.
>
>Why should one support this bill--it doesn't include witch doctors and
>native shamans. Seriously, anyone who has read the latest Consumer
>Reports can clearly understand that many "practitioners" are engaging
>in quackery.  To obtain federal subsidies for disciplines started by
>grocery store clerks is a waste of public funds and gives an unearned
>imprimatur to them.  On the face of it, this bill should be opposed,
>unless there is another argument to the contrary.

First, MDs can be as much quacks as anyone else; I've seen it happen. This
guy almost killed a friend of mine with AIDS by prescribing him the wrong
medicine.

Second, the bill, according to the original post, specifies that the
practitioner must be licenced. So, as long as the state licencing board is
okay, the practitioners should meet minimum standards for their field.

It seems to me the bill is sufficiently specific so that your concerns
are addressed.

However, I don't see TCM mentioned in this bill, unless TCM practitioners
are considered "naturopaths". I find that to be a problem with the bill.

					-- Chris.


From tvalesky@mason1.gmu.edu Sun May 29 05:35:38 1994
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 09:48:52 -0400
From: Thomas B Valesky <tvalesky@mason1.gmu.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Cc: tuite@virginia.edu
Subject: Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
Status: O
X-Status: 


How would the surgical removal of a diseased organ affect traditional
Oriental patterns of diagnosis and healing?

Say a person has his gallbladder removed. How would this affect the
gall-bladder meridian, and its associated meridians? What would the
general effect on the person's organs be? Would a practitioner of
Oriental medicine be able to tell that the person had no gall bladder
by using traditional diagnostic methods?

Tom Valesky




From Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU Sun May 29 05:35:47 1994
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 10:01:32 EDT
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Another Opinion
Status: O
X-Status: 

>>Senator Thomas Daschle (SD) has introduced a bill entitled 
>>The Access to Medical Treatment Act, which would guarantee 
>>that individuals may choose to be treated by any licensed health
>>care, practitioner (defined in the bill as "any properly licensed 
>>medical doctor, osteopath, chiropractor or naturopath") with any 
>>method of medical treatment the individual desires, so long as 
>>(1) there is no evidence that the treatment is dangerous; 
>>(2) the patient is fully informed of its side effects; and 
>>(3) the treatment falls within the scope of the provider's
>>practice. The goal of this legislation is to guarantee access
>>no matter what kind of health care reform package is passed.
>
>Why should one support this bill--it doesn't include witch doctors and
>native shamans. Seriously, anyone who has read the latest Consumer
>Reports can clearly understand that many "practitioners" are engaging
>in quackery.  To obtain federal subsidies for disciplines started by
>grocery store clerks is a waste of public funds and gives an unearned
>imprimatur to them.  On the face of it, this bill should be opposed,
>unless there is another argument to the contrary.

First, MDs can be as much quacks as anyone else; I've seen it happen. This
guy almost killed a friend of mine with AIDS by prescribing him the wrong
medicine.

Second, the bill, according to the original post, specifies that the
practitioner must be licenced. So, as long as the state licencing board is
okay, the practitioners should meet minimum standards for their field.

It seems to me the bill is sufficiently specific so that your concerns
are addressed.

However, I don't see TCM mentioned in this bill, unless TCM practitioners
are considered "naturopaths". I find that to be a problem with the bill.

					-- Chris.


From tvalesky@mason1.gmu.edu Sun May 29 05:35:56 1994
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 09:48:52 -0400
From: Thomas B Valesky <tvalesky@mason1.gmu.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Cc: tuite@virginia.edu
Subject: Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
Status: O
X-Status: 


How would the surgical removal of a diseased organ affect traditional
Oriental patterns of diagnosis and healing?

Say a person has his gallbladder removed. How would this affect the
gall-bladder meridian, and its associated meridians? What would the
general effect on the person's organs be? Would a practitioner of
Oriental medicine be able to tell that the person had no gall bladder
by using traditional diagnostic methods?

Tom Valesky




From karel@golem.demon.co.uk Sun May 29 09:34:31 1994
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 00:20:49 GMT
From: karel@golem.demon.co.uk
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Cc: tuite@virginia.edu
Subject: Re: Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> Say a person has his gallbladder removed. How would this affect the
> gall-bladder meridian, and its associated meridians? What would the
> general effect on the person's organs be? Would a practitioner of
> Oriental medicine be able to tell that the person had no gall bladder
> by using traditional diagnostic methods?
> 
> Tom Valesky

My acupuncture teacher has recently told us about a long-time TCM doctor/
practitioner who was very good at diagnosis. Apparently she was present when
someone who she knew had his gall bladder removed came for a treatment. The
doctor in question had never met this man before but as soon as he entered
the room, the doctor asked, "when did you have his gall bladder removed?"

Apparently this doctor used patients' face and the way they walked as basis
for his diagnosis.

Regards,

-- 
Karel                                   Karel Koskuba
                                        Crowthorne, Berks, UK


From vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca Sun May 29 09:34:39 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 17:56:42 EDT
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I (Vanessa) originally wrote:

	"...If Western medicine is failing us, something will have to
	fill the void. I believe that Oriental Medicine is in a good
	position to do that."

Gavin responded:

	"...for my taste this is really way too general a criticism
	to reflect upon with any degree of equanimity. Vanessa may 
	have some very good specific criticisms of Western medical
	practices or epistemologies (many of which I would no doubt
	agree with), but to cast one's net this wide is to virtually
	announce that any discussion on the topic is, for Vanessa (at
	least as I read her here), unlikely to be persuasive or even
	necessary. Do you really mean to state your case this strongly?"

First let me say, to Gavin and others, I'm sincerely sorry if I've
stepped on *your* toes. It was not, and is not, my intention to
criticize Western medicine here.

What I was trying to point to with that statement was what I perceive
as a growing popular opinion to the effect that "Western medicine is
failing us". I'm basing this on the increasing number of letters, 
articles, and editorials in local press and publications; the emergence
of local public interest groups stating this opinion; the disappoint-
ments frequently expressed to me by clients (I am a Shiatsu therapist)
who feel that their doctors have been unable to help them, etc. All
of this indicates to me that there is a good chance that the interest
in and demand for Oriental Medicine will increase in the near future.
In relation to the topic presented for discussion, the future of OM
looks quite promising to me.

My own opinions about Western medicine are somewhat more sophisticated
(I hope!) than simply "it is failing us". But as our moderator has
kindly pointed out to us all, this is not the place for the discussion
of such things. I apologize if I didn't make it clear in my original
posting that I was referring to the current social climate and its
implications for the future of OM, and not my personal views on
Western medical philosophy, theory, research, education, clinical practice, 
or politics.

As to the possibility of a discussion on these topics, if you are
interested perhaps you could ask if anyone would like to engage in
a private e-mail discussion with you. It would, however, be a
difficult conversation to manage, since the topic is so complex
and opinions on it are generally strongly held.

Peace,

	Vanessa


	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca



From ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu Sun May 29 09:35:21 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 02:18:36 -0500
From: Gavin Hougham <ghougham@medicine.bsd.uchicago.edu>
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Z've wrote: 

 It's not that biomedicine
>cannot be part of the mix, but that the tremendous information gathered by
>modern medicine is empirical, and must be looked at from a more global
>perspective...  ...The profession is still in an immature phase, and I hope
all parties will keep the channels open, through dialogue and discussion,
rather than
>collapse of qi developing by rigid positions. 

When I queried Vanessa on her "failure of western medicine" argument, Hallie
responded passionately to give a personal account of how western medicine
had failed HER.  I certainly do sympathize with her troubled encounters that
seemed to have led to therapeutic dead ends, however, I would like to align
myself with a more tempered view as offered by Z'ev, above.  It is true that
many encounters with physicians are disappointing, especially for those with
what turn out to be very challenging diagnostic presentations.  Other
encounters can be more or less disappointing for other reasons, rooted
perhaps in gender, class and race differences between patients and
physicians.   Western medicine does not (should not) claim universal
knowledge of all problems, but it pains me when I hear people trashing
western medicine because of its many individual failures.  Western medicine
does claim that its knowledge is based on a particular TYPE of knowledge
accretion (science), and that practices based on this knowledge are more or
less verifiable or falsifiable.  (I could argue that these claims are itself
problematic, but that's for another discussion.)  I'll bet a lot of folks
here on the forum had polio vaccinations in childhood that have prevented a
lot of pathology.

Anyway, Hallie, thanks for responding, and Z'ev, thanks for the tempering
admonition.

Gavin
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gavin Hougham
University of Chicago
Department of Sociology
1126 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
   E-mail:  gwh2@midway.uchicago.edu
   Office:  Department of General Internal Medicine
               (312) 702-6735



From vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca Sun May 29 09:35:46 1994
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 18:22:54 EDT
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Reply to: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hallie writes:

	"Western doctors and medicine could learn a lot from
	Oriental practices - not only in diagnosis but in being
	concerned about the patient's welfare....
	[portion of message deleted]
	A couple of doctors even suggested I see a psychiatrist.
	I emphasize this because none of these individuals seem
	to really CARE if I was in pain nor did they really
	LISTEN to what I was saying to them."

I believe an important contribution of Oriental Medicine is this
listening to the person; that is, the taking of an individual's
experience at face value. Suffering cannot be seperated from the
person suffering. Pain isn't something you can hold in your hand,
look at under a microscope, or philosophize about. The Oriental
tradition seems clearly to recognize that treatment should be aimed
at eliminating (or at least reducing) the pain and loss of functioning
as it is experienced by the person. This is a truly compassionate 
approach, and leads to more positive results, as Hallie attests here.

Peace,

	Vanessa

	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca


From london@calypso-2 Sun May 29 23:21:50 1994
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Date: Thu, 26 May 94 18:22:54 EDT
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hallie writes:

	"Western doctors and medicine could learn a lot from
	Oriental practices - not only in diagnosis but in being
	concerned about the patient's welfare....
	[portion of message deleted]
	A couple of doctors even suggested I see a psychiatrist.
	I emphasize this because none of these individuals seem
	to really CARE if I was in pain nor did they really
	LISTEN to what I was saying to them."

I believe an important contribution of Oriental Medicine is this
listening to the person; that is, the taking of an individual's
experience at face value. Suffering cannot be seperated from the
person suffering. Pain isn't something you can hold in your hand,
look at under a microscope, or philosophize about. The Oriental
tradition seems clearly to recognize that treatment should be aimed
at eliminating (or at least reducing) the pain and loss of functioning
as it is experienced by the person. This is a truly compassionate 
approach, and leads to more positive results, as Hallie attests here.

Peace,

	Vanessa

	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca



From london@calypso-2 Sun May 29 23:21:57 1994
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Date: Thu, 26 May 94 18:22:54 EDT
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hallie writes:

	"Western doctors and medicine could learn a lot from
	Oriental practices - not only in diagnosis but in being
	concerned about the patient's welfare....
	[portion of message deleted]
	A couple of doctors even suggested I see a psychiatrist.
	I emphasize this because none of these individuals seem
	to really CARE if I was in pain nor did they really
	LISTEN to what I was saying to them."

I believe an important contribution of Oriental Medicine is this
listening to the person; that is, the taking of an individual's
experience at face value. Suffering cannot be seperated from the
person suffering. Pain isn't something you can hold in your hand,
look at under a microscope, or philosophize about. The Oriental
tradition seems clearly to recognize that treatment should be aimed
at eliminating (or at least reducing) the pain and loss of functioning
as it is experienced by the person. This is a truly compassionate 
approach, and leads to more positive results, as Hallie attests here.

Peace,

	Vanessa

	Vanessa Williams
	vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca



From london@calypso-2 Mon May 30 08:31:15 1994
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Message-Id: <1994May29.045912.1169794@electriciti.com>
Organization: ElectriCiti, San Diego, CA, USA
Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 04:59:12 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Patrick,
   Regarding your question. . .although I am hardly a scientific authority,
here's a  few tidbits for you. . .I would appreciate any of your comments
or insights based on your interests in chaos theory, complexity, etc.

   Dr. Manaka, a great acupuncturist who died a few years ago (his book
"Chasing the Dragon's Tail" should be out from Paradigm Press in the next
year or so), felt that the minimum possible stimulus with the fewest
needles was the best acupuncture treatment.  Firmly based in the classical
texts, he nonetheless was able to understand the phenomena of acupuncture
in terms of modern physics.
   Especially when using the models of chronobiology (Chinese time clock,
open pts., etc) and the eight extraordinary vessels,  one can effect the
total body/mind system, restoring equilibrium, by using very carefully
chosen points.  This is akin to throwing a pebble in a still pond, which
will send waves thru the entire pond system, and create a new dynamic
equilibrium.  Or, using the complexity model, the fluttering of a
butterfly's wings or the shift of the El Nino current will change the
'normal' weather patterns.  In my opinion, classical approaches to
acupuncture treatment (and herbal medicine as well) are very consistent
with complexity and chaos theory.
   Next thought: pulse diagnosis.  Chinese medicine always uses the idea of
gan ying, or resonance, in diagnosis and treatment.  We use the pulse, ear,
tongue, abdomen and eyes as holograms of the entire body/mind system to
read conditions; each diagnostic system of course has its strengths and
weaknesses.  The pulse is like a sine wave (see the works of Sung Baek,
published in the Oriental Medicine journal), with variances of wave form,
amplitude, etc.  Any variances of the condition of the body/mind will show
up as various irregularities, like a choppy sea, that can be calibrated to
determine various illnesses and disorders.

   I'll be glad to elaborate further, if this is of interest to you.

Regards,

Z'ev Rosenberg. L. Ac., D.O.M.




From london@calypso-2 Mon May 30 22:00:02 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  Another Opinion
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Let's support the bill and OPPOSE any subsidization of any licensed
practitioner. In that way, each practitioner would truly be equal in the eyes
of the gov't and taxpayer yet each patient/consumer would be free to select
their provider free of prejudice imposed or "subsidized" by the gov't. Jim
Turner of the National Commission of Certif. of Acupuncture voiced his support
of the bill and said we would negotiate our admission to it while its in
committee. Jack. Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.


From london@calypso-2 Mon May 30 22:00:07 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  Another Opinion
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Let's support the bill and OPPOSE any subsidization of any licensed
practitioner. In that way, each practitioner would truly be equal in the eyes
of the gov't and taxpayer yet each patient/consumer would be free to select
their provider free of prejudice imposed or "subsidized" by the gov't. Jim
Turner of the National Commission of Certif. of Acupuncture voiced his support
of the bill and said we would negotiate our admission to it while its in
committee. Jack. Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.


From london@calypso-2 Tue May 31 23:45:40 1994
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Organization: ElectriCiti, San Diego, CA, USA
Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 08:43:23 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Tom,
   In Chinese Medicine, an organ (zang'-fu) or viscera is seen as the most
physicalized 'precipitate' of a primarily energetic function. . .so the
function of the meridian continues even when the physical organ is removed.
 If you look at the indications of several meridians, especially the
Bladder and Gall Bladder meridians, you will find many have nothing to do
with the organs themselves that the meridian is named after!  Also, there
is a meridian (san jiao/triple burner) that has no physical organ
substrate.   Chinese energetic physiology (zang-xiang) is more concerned
with function than with physical structure.
   The body has a heirarchy of importance; you can live without a gall
bladder, but not without a liver.  Only the less 'important' organs can be
removed.   In Chinese medicine, surgery was always discouraged and almost
unknown for 2000 years. . .so there is little reference to organ removal
and pulses in the classical literature.  However, since the function of the
removed organs remains, there will still be a pulse.   In my own
observations from clinical practice, I find that I can feel when the
ovaries or uterus have been removed much more easily than a gall bladder,
whose functions seem to be compensated for by the liver.

Later, 
Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.




From london@calypso-2 Tue May 31 23:45:44 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Mitch Bebel Stargrove <mstargrove@igc.apc.org>

At least once a month a new patient describes their sciatica to me and I 
tell them that it follows the Gall Bladder channel from the gluteus to 
the knee/foot..., then they so often repley something like "How can that 
be? My Gall Bladder was removed 20 years ago!"

Well yes the fundamental stress or imbalance that was being expresswed 
through their GB wsan't resolved or even addressed, 
and maybe now it is expressing itself through the channel...
Mitch Stargrove, ND, LAc




yes, they still usually need their GB (and Liver) treated...


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun  1 08:49:52 1994
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Date: Tue, 31 May 94 09:13 CDT
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Subject: Re: Question for discussion: The Future
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Stacey Martin <STACEY@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu>

Vanessa wrote:

The Oriental
tradition seems clearly to recognize that treatment should be aimed
at eliminating (or at least reducing) the pain and loss of functioning
as it is experienced by the person. This is a truly compassionate
approach, and leads to more positive results, as Hallie attests her

This has certainly been my experience. My present doctor is Chinese,
trained as an internist and in TCM. He is the first doctor who
has ever listened to me, who believed that _I_ knew my body,
its responses, and when and how I felt ill. I have never yet
been given an antiobiotic, never been given a pharmaceutical
drug, and have seen him for migraine headaches (which he helped
immensely) and severe bronchitis.

I'm fascinated with the methods of diagnosis in TCM, particularly
as they apply to simple "feel-bads." A person does not have
to have a dreaded disease to have one's body behave poorly. And
there always seems to be a way to treat and correct these
problems which are not even considered in Western medicine.

I realize that Western medicine has made wonderful discoveries
for the human race. But practioners of allopathic medicine in
the West generally see themsevles as the be-all and end-all
of medicine. THIS is what is so hard to swallow. Dr. Li, my
physician, has no problem incorporating modern medicine with
TCM. THe same cannot be said for western allopathic doctors
and alternative medicine. And I think this is a primary
reason for the failure so often of Western medicine in its
treatment of disease.

Stacey 


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun  1 08:50:14 1994
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Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 08:33:27 -0600 (MDT)
In-Reply-To: <199405310545.WAA00796@igc.apc.org> from "Mitch Bebel Stargrove" at May 30, 94 10:45:59 pm
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Effect of organ removal/alteration on pattern of TCM treatment
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From: GORDON ALLEN R <gordon@horton.Colorado.EDU>

> 
> At least once a month a new patient describes their sciatica to me and I 
> tell them that it follows the Gall Bladder channel from the gluteus to 
> the knee/foot..., then they so often repley something like "How can that 
> be? My Gall Bladder was removed 20 years ago!"
> 
> Well yes the fundamental stress or imbalance that was being expresswed 
> through their GB wsan't resolved or even addressed, 
> and maybe now it is expressing itself through the channel...
> Mitch Stargrove, ND, LAc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yes, they still usually need their GB (and Liver) treated...
> 
> 


I would suggest reading Manfred Porkert's book, "Theoretical Foundations of 
Chinese Medicine".  In order to understand the relationship(s) between the
meridian systems and our anatomical based systems, it must be realized that
the GB meridian, for example, is a system that has a sphere of influence 
('orbisiconography'), that includes, but is not limited to, the anatomical
gall bladder.  This functionally or systemically based approach of TCM, is 
almost to lacking in western medicine (what you see is what you get).  Porkert
describes the approaches taken by TCM very well.



From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun  1 08:50:21 1994
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Subject: Effect of earrings (pierced and pressure)?
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: steve@presoft.com

Hello all:

I know little about Oriental Medicine but my girlfriend is in her
first year of study to be an accupuncturist at Yo San in Santa
Monica.  We are both learning a lot, her faster than me however.

I had a question: What is the effect of earrings puncturing the ear, a
most active area for accupuncture sites?  Is that area over
stimulated?  Since there is a permanent hole in the ear, is anything
damaged?  Does the site of the immediate accupuncture point lose its
effectiveness?  Is the channel re-routed?  Does a pressure earring do
the same as those little seeds I had taped into my ear on that spot?

Sorry if these are obvious to the rest of you or in the local FAQ.  I
am new here and to Oriental Medicine.

Thank you,

Steve
   
 Steve Kohlenberger, PreSoft Architects       Internet: steve@presoft.com
 Novell Professional Developer / IMSP                      (714) 538-6002
 Specialists in NLM and Disk/Tape/LAN Driver dev. for NetWare 4.X/3.X/2.2


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun  1 08:50:46 1994
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Subject: RE: Lost Organs
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


RE: Lost Organs

My partner lost her spleen in an accident about two decades ago.
During that two decades we have been lucky enough to work and study with
some very fine clinicians, researchers and scholars.  This gives us
a fairly broad perspective, which, of course, is not to say that these
observations are in any way all-inclusive or formally reliable.

In general, recognition that Martha has lost an organ is neither as unusual
nor as ``mystical'' as it may seem.  For example, we never met someone who
set out to acquire the skill.  It is more a realization that comes from
having developed some observational sense or skill.   This is not to say
that there aren't incidences that evidence unusual ability.  For example,
Yoshio Manaka (who Z'ev mentions in the context of his science) was so
powerful a personality that I would argue with none who called him ``psychic.''
He was a healer.  In a room with young children and he was a ``pied piper,''
a sign that we, like many other parents, see in very few people.
He had extraordinary talents.  But, I know his recognition of bodily
imbalances was based on his knowledge of palpation.  So too with Shibata
(who judged by where reactive points were relative to where he expected
them to be relative to someone's physique) or Dr. Ho (complexion), or Martha's
regular acupuncturist Kuwahara (pulse).   Also, scholars like Wiseman who
are very familiar with the details of diagnostic concepts sometimes
recognize hidden or historic phenomena from observational clues such as
particular associations of pathoconditions.  I'm sure there are some people
on this list who have the experience of recognizing aspects of a patient's
history or circumstances through just such means.

Because Oriental medicine is almost entirely rooted
in naked-sense observation, practitioners can use its constructs
to train themselves to be very precise observers.  Because it was most
often apprentice trained in small groups whose members could insure
each others consistency through agreement with the group, so-called
subjective observations had a practical basis.  Since the Oriental
concept of theory was not exclusionary until the 1950's,
it was possible for approaches that were not absolutely reliable to
be considered credible.  Thus, people developed observational
skills that look exceptional when viewed through a Western lens.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun  5 04:26:46 1994
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Subject: ?? Zheng Gu / Tui Na teacher in China ??
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From: Arnen Parker <aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au>

A friend will be in mainland China November & December this year. She is
an acupuncturist with extensive experience in musculo-skeletal work and
is looking to get experience in bone manipulation / setting. She was
wondering if anyone knows of such a teacher or any related information.
I will compile any replies for submission to the group if anyone else is
interested.
Thanks


Arnen Parker  
aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au 


From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun 12 00:01:54 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Tui Na
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com

RE: Tui Na, definition of

Tui Na is Chinese traditional massotherapy.

The character associated with ``tui'' (tone 1) means ``push.''
The character associated with ``na'' (tone 2) means ``grasp.''
Both are also used in technique labels like ``pushing'' or  ``grasping
method.'' Also known as ``an mo,'' in Japan ``an ma.''  It differs
from western massage in both the specificity of the match between technique 
and clinical observation, that is, it involves finer discrimination
of bodily phenomena.  In Japan it has evolved to incorporate topological
observations of the body, for example, the difference between limb lengths.
I'm sure that SE Asia and Korea have also contributed indigenous ideas;
I am not however familiar with these.

RE: Tui Na Teacher, East Coast

There is one Chinese in Boston who combines tui na with traditional
bone setting.  My associates speak of his accomplishments for them
in enthusiastic terms.  I doubt he would take students who do not speak Chinese.
Peter Thompson, who practices in CT apprentice-trained with one of Japan's most
famous shiatsu practitioners after passing his Japanese acupuncture
license, is familiar with most forms.   He will teach but I'm not sure
how he would go about it, however, it would be rigorous as his style
depends upon the development of tactile sensitivity.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun 12 00:02:01 1994
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Subject: Re: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Tui Na is a form of massage developed in China characterized by at 13 different
hand techniques. It is most distinct in that each hand technique creates
rythmic motion in the affected area, whether that be a large muscle group or
small acupuncture point. This is in keeping the Chinese idea that pain is a
manifestation of the stagnation of qi. Therefore the reverberation caused by
the massage frees and circulates the stagnated qi. Tui Na is often combined
with moving an affected joint through its range of motion. It is usually
considered more of a therapeutic massage form than a "soothing" stress
reduction experience though a protocol or routine could be performed by the
practitioner for that purpose. Learning the hand techniques requires a bit more
dedication than learning other forms of massage, in my limited experience. I
should say I'm primarily an acupuncturist not a massage practitioner.


From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun 12 00:02:05 1994
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Subject: Re: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Tui Na is a form of massage developed in China characterized by at 13 different
hand techniques. It is most distinct in that each hand technique creates
rythmic motion in the affected area, whether that be a large muscle group or
small acupuncture point. This is in keeping the Chinese idea that pain is a
manifestation of the stagnation of qi. Therefore the reverberation caused by
the massage frees and circulates the stagnated qi. Tui Na is often combined
with moving an affected joint through its range of motion. It is usually
considered more of a therapeutic massage form than a "soothing" stress
reduction experience though a protocol or routine could be performed by the
practitioner for that purpose. Learning the hand techniques requires a bit more
dedication than learning other forms of massage, in my limited experience. I
should say I'm primarily an acupuncturist not a massage practitioner.


From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun 12 00:02:10 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Tui Na
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com

RE: Tui Na, definition of

Tui Na is Chinese traditional massotherapy.

The character associated with ``tui'' (tone 1) means ``push.''
The character associated with ``na'' (tone 2) means ``grasp.''
Both are also used in technique labels like ``pushing'' or  ``grasping
method.'' Also known as ``an mo,'' in Japan ``an ma.''  It differs
from western massage in both the specificity of the match between technique 
and clinical observation, that is, it involves finer discrimination
of bodily phenomena.  In Japan it has evolved to incorporate topological
observations of the body, for example, the difference between limb lengths.
I'm sure that SE Asia and Korea have also contributed indigenous ideas;
I am not however familiar with these.

RE: Tui Na Teacher, East Coast

There is one Chinese in Boston who combines tui na with traditional
bone setting.  My associates speak of his accomplishments for them
in enthusiastic terms.  I doubt he would take students who do not speak Chinese.
Peter Thompson, who practices in CT apprentice-trained with one of Japan's most
famous shiatsu practitioners after passing his Japanese acupuncture
license, is familiar with most forms.   He will teach but I'm not sure
how he would go about it, however, it would be rigorous as his style
depends upon the development of tactile sensitivity.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 16 10:04:48 1994
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Hi folks!

First, I'd just like to say that though this list is getting
off to a slow start I think we have a great group of people
here. It's always curious when 100 subscribers sit silently
waiting for someone to start a conversation, but it is the
nature of mailing lists. I hope to stir up a few things in
the next week or so with some additional questions to the
group.

I'd also like to express my appreciation to Vanessa and 
others for restraining the natural tendency to launch into 
West vs. East debates here. I was just getting ready to
take my first actions as moderator when Vanessa kindly 
pointed out that the nature of the thread might be out of
keeping with the list purpose. Thanks!

On to the problem with doubled messages: This system (bkhouse)
sends out the list messages via BSMTP through a system called
CTSNET. Bkhouse is only sending each message once, but for
some reason when the system upstream unpacks the BSMTP package
and sends it out to all of you, it does so twice. The sysadmin
there, a really kind-hearted and helpful fellow, is working
on this with me, and we hope to have it solved one way or 
another very shortly. I apologize for any inconvenience this
may have caused, especially to those who pay for their email
by the byte.

Anyway, I hope that everyone is enjoying what the list has
provided so far, and I encourage each of you to add what you
can. Oriental medicine is a truly enormous field and I can't
believe that we can't find *something* to talk about! :)

Take care, all, and be well!

Norm. (your moderator)


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From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 16 10:05:02 1994
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	     (from MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU)
	     (at Thu, 9 Jun 1994 23:03:14 -0700 (PDT))
Organization: Argus Computing & Multimedia
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: tui na teacher
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From: ormed-admin@bkhouse.cts.com
X-Original-From: nkraft-om@bkhouse.cts.com (OrMed Mailing List Administrator)

On Jun 9 Jack Miller wrote:

> Tui Na is a form of massage developed in China characterized by at 13 different
> hand techniques. It is most distinct in that each hand technique creates
> rythmic motion in the affected area, whether that be a large muscle group or
> small acupuncture point. 

[...deletia...]

This is an excellent description of one part of the Tui Na system, but 
I wanted to add a couple of things. Tui Na, at least according to our local
guru of Tui Na, Bill Helm, is currently practiced with a mix of both old
and new hand techniques. 

In the newer system, developed quite recently, we have the so-called 
"oscillating" techniques, which are used to stimulate and create rhythm and 
movement on points and along channels. Jack has already posted an 
description of these.

In the older system we have a lot of pressing, pushing and pulling 
techniques that are sometimes rhythmic, but often slow, deep and penetrating. 
The older Tui Na techniques remind me very much of Western deep tissue 
massage. In fact, some writers and historians believe that Tui Na was the 
massage sytle which, when brought out of China to Europe, became the 
foundation for Western massage styles.

In general, Tui Na works most effectively within the framework of Chinese 
medical theory and is akin to other CM practices such as acupuncture and 
moxibustion. It requires an understanding of the channels and points, and
its practice is enhanced with a bit of channel theory. Tui Na certainly can 
be and is learned and practiced without the medical theory, but it then becomes 
little more than a few interesting hand techniques. 

It is when we put it in its place as roughly one-fourth of the broad realm 
of Chinese therapeutics (sort of where I see it fitting in) that Tui Na becomes 
more than just a good way to treat sore muscles. There are Tui Na protocols 
for upset stomach, headache, nosebleed, common cold, insomnia, asthma, and 
more. In my own use of these protocols I have found them to be very effective. 

At Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, there is a study in progress using
Tui Na to treat chemotherapy patients. Both here and in China, there are
Tui Na protocols for people with HIV/AIDS. 

As a system of massage, Tui Na can be complicated and difficult to learn, 
but I prefer it to every other massage style I have seen or used. In ten 
years or so, I might even get to be good at it. :)

Norm.

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From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 16 10:16:13 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: tvalesky@mason1.gmu.edu (Thomas B Valesky)


In "The Web That Has No Weaver", I was surprised to find that the 
meridians continue inside the body -- I had previously thought that
they were strictly on the surface of the skin. Does anyone know of
any books that address the nature and interactions of the meridians
after they go beneath the skin surface? Or would anyone
care to write a short reply on the subject to the mailing list?

Thanks,

Tom Valesky


From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 16 10:17:05 1994
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From: aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au (Arnen Parker)


Thanks for your suggestions. I have passes them on to my colleague and she
is following them up by phone.
Generally, acupuncturists from Australia tend to go to the PRC rather than
the States - closer.

Thanks again
Arnen Parker




From london@calypso-2 Fri Jun 17 12:55:08 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca

Tom Valesky writes:

>In "The Web That Has No Weaver", I was surprised to find that the 
>meridians continue inside the body -- I had previously thought that
>they were strictly on the surface of the skin. Does anyone know of
>any books that address the nature and interactions of the meridians
>after they go beneath the skin surface? Or would anyone
>care to write a short reply on the subject to the mailing list?

The internal branches of the main meridians are just another
portion of the complete pathway. As such, I don't see that
they are different in nature or function from the external
pathways. Of course, since they are deep below the surface,
they aren't accessible to needlse or massage. Herbal treatements
should penetrate to the internal pathway, though.

I've always thought that the internal pathway is the most
important, since it is there that the connections to the
organs are made. The external pathway carries Qi to the
surface of the body and makes it possible to treat
illness with non-invasive techniques.

I seem to remember that Kiiko Matsumoto and Stephen Birch went
into some detail about the internal meridian pathways in
"Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on the Sea". If you can find this
book in the library, or borrow it from a frient, it would be 
advisable to do so. It's a huge hardcover and (at least in this 
country : Canada) costs a fortune!


	- Vanessa




From london@calypso-2 Fri Jun 17 12:55:13 1994
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Subject: Re: [ADMIN] Doubled messages
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From: "Hallie J. WILLOUGHBY" <HALLIEJW@uci.edu>

Hallie's Reply To Your Message
                    RE>[ADMIN] Doubled messages
Hello Norm

I would like to be removed from the OrMed list.   Can I just tell you or is
there a particular procedure I have to follow.  Please advise.

Hallie

--------------------------------------
Date: 6/16/94 1:13 AM
To: Hallie Willoughby
From: The OrMed Mailing List
Hi folks!

First, I'd just like to say that though this list is getting
off to a slow start I think we have a great group of people
here. It's always curious when 100 subscribers sit silently
waiting for someone to start a conversation, but it is the
nature of mailing lists. I hope to stir up a few things in
the next week or so with some additional questions to the
group.

I'd also like to express my appreciation to Vanessa and 
others for restraining the natural tendency to launch into 
West vs. East debates here. I was just getting ready to
take my first actions as moderator when Vanessa kindly 
pointed out that the nature of the thread might be out of
keeping with the list purpose. Thanks!

On to the problem with doubled messages: This system (bkhouse)
sends out the list messages via BSMTP through a system called
CTSNET. Bkhouse is only sending each message once, but for
some reason when the system upstream unpacks the BSMTP package
and sends it out to all of you, it does so twice. The sysadmin
there, a really kind-hearted and helpful fellow, is working
on this with me, and we hope to have it solved one way or 
another very shortly. I apologize for any inconvenience this
may have caused, especially to those who pay for their email
by the byte.

Anyway, I hope that everyone is enjoying what the list has
provided so far, and I encourage each of you to add what you
can. Oriental medicine is a truly enormous field and I can't
believe that we can't find *something* to talk about! :)

Take care, all, and be well!

Norm. (your moderator)


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From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 18 06:05:18 1994
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Subject: Re: Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Erik Hatcher <esh6h@fulton.seas.virginia.edu>

I've been reading Felix Mann's latest book "Reinventing
Acupuncture"  and he has blown me away with his new
ideas.  He basically dispells all notions of meridians
and points and has said that neither exist.

Anyone else read this book?  Comments?

        Erik


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 18 06:05:30 1994
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From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Norm adds a lot to my description. Reading about massage on a Friday can really
point out how much we all could use a good "oscillation". Bill Helm has
developed a class called East and West Deep Tissue that undoubtedly integrates
the techniques that Norm refers to, along with techniques developed on this
side of the planet. 


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 18 06:05:35 1994
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From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Makes sense. Didn't know you were in Australia. I do my best not to do business
with China for political reasons, as well.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 18 06:05:42 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: herbs as antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Thanks Norm for prodding some conversations out of us. Here's one. Recently,
Newsweek published a cover story about the resistant bacteria developing due to 
overuse of antibiotics. I think any rational practitioner or patient would
agree upon the enormous life-saving contribution antibiotics have made, so I,
for one, don't see this as an East-West debate. However, I would like to hear
more from better herbalist than me about the potential for replacing some
antibiotic uses with herbs. I have asked Michael Smith to speak about this at
Atlantic Symposium. Maybe I can encourage him to join this group. We have also
discussed conducting some bacteria culture experiments at Pacific. Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 18 06:05:47 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: RE: Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Any of the books, Chinese Acup and Moxibustion, Royston Low's "The Secondary
Vessels of Acupuncture, etc. would show the internal pathways. Michio Kushi
often discusses the energetic "physiology" and function of the meridians. Call
the Kushi Institute for references. Pacific College has his lecture on
meridians on tape and it is available through Confernce Recorders in the Bay
area (call 411). Kushi's idea is that the meridians are the primary structure
of the physical body, sort of an energetic framework or pattern around which
the nervous system, organs, bones and muscles form. These, therefore, are the
material condensation of energy. I find a certain mind-body, matter/spirit
dichotomy in much of the discussion of meridians. It would be like referring to
the arteries or nerves as separate from the body. I am also entertaining the
idea of the acupuncture points as pathological phenomenon. That is, a body in
perfect health would be experience as an integrated whole, not a entity with
tender points all over it. This is an idea in its very initial stages. I have
no investment in it so I won't be offended by those of you who would care to
dissuade me from pursuing this idea further. How we look at it may depend upon
our idea of health or perfect health. Excuse a few grammatical errors above. My 
terminal word processor does not allow editing without completely backspacing.
Forget that!


From london@calypso-2 Mon Jun 20 12:00:27 1994
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Subject: Re: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>At Pacific College of Oriental Medicine, there is a study in progress using
>Tui Na to treat chemotherapy patients. Both here and in China, there are
>Tui Na protocols for people with HIV/AIDS. 

Are there any papers or reports on Tui Na protocols for people with HIV/AIDS?
My friend may find such useful, although now he is located far away, perhaps
he can perform some of the techniques on himself. Or I was thinking I may be
able to find somebody in upstate New York to work on him.

				-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Mon Jun 20 12:00:39 1994
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Subject: Re: Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

I have not read Felix's new book. I would like to get it for our library. Who
is his publisher for "Reinventing"?


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:06:06 1994
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In-Reply-To: <940617094306.3329@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU> from "MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU" at Jun 17, 94 09:43:06 am
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
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From: Galen Williams <galenw@deeptht.armory.com>

> 
> Thanks Norm for prodding some conversations out of us. Here's one. Recently,
> Newsweek published a cover story about the resistant bacteria developing due to 
> overuse of antibiotics. I think any rational practitioner or patient would
> agree upon the enormous life-saving contribution antibiotics have made, so I,
> for one, don't see this as an East-West debate. However, I would like to hear
> more from better herbalist than me about the potential for replacing some
> antibiotic uses with herbs. I have asked Michael Smith to speak about this at
> Atlantic Symposium. Maybe I can encourage him to join this group. We have also
> discussed conducting some bacteria culture experiments at Pacific. Jack Miller

In practice (I am a 4th year intern at Five Branches Institute in Santa
Cruz, CA), I have used herbal "antibiotics" (including herbs listed in
Bensky as clearing heat and toxins) for such varied conditions as skin
infections, throat infections, ear infections, dog bite, UTI, and yeast
infections (in combination with other appropriate herbs).  To use herbs to
treat conditions that would normally be treated with antibiotics we must
first do a thorough diagnosis with TCM (or OM if you prefer) principles. 

Herbs useful to treat infection include (pardon the pinyin names, I don't 
know all the latin names) ban lan gen and da qing ye (both parts of the 
woad plant), pu gong ying (dandelion!), huang qin, huang lian, huang bai, 
lian qiao, long dan cao... Long Dan Xie Gan Tang (a classical formula) is 
effective in treatment of infectious diseases from hepatitis to UTI to 
yeast infection (once again, depending on the diagnosis).

As provocation (of discussion, not flames) I might suggest that we need 
to remember not to try to treat "western" diseases with "asian" medicine, 
and vice versa.  Each system has its own diagnostic paradigm and can't 
really be successful without using all of its inherent tools.

Galen



From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:06:21 1994
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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 16:24:33 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Jack,
  I did address this issue at the Symposium a bit last summer. It is a
vital issue, and I look forward to Michael Smith's presentation.
   I will be glad to respond at length, but a thought right now:
  Berberine containing herbs, such as scutellaria/huang qin, coptis/huang
lian, phellodendron/huang bai, golden seal, mahonia, etc. have been shown
to have strong anti-bacterial properties.  It would be wise to use these
herbs in a PCOM study.   I have available Chinese research on these herbs
as to these effects.

Later, Z'ev




From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:06:32 1994
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Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 16:20:49 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: Internal meridians
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

I have not read Felix Mann's latest book, but I would be interested.
Right off, I feel that it is another one of the modern 'saviors of science'
who is trying to sell the religion of reductionist science to vanquish 3000
yrs. of 'superstition'.  What makes physiological entities any more 'real'
than energetic phenomena that are confirmed by observation of generations
of practitioners?  It is indicative of the arrogance of modern science that
it will negate other world-views, as the Crusades attempted to vanquish
pagan ways of life.  

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac., D.O.M.




From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:06:39 1994
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From: aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au (Arnen Parker)

Living in a semi-tropical climate I regularly prescribe raw San Qi powder
internal and external for tropical ulcers (staph infection). Have also used
it in treating gangrene and postsurgical osteomyelitis with good effect.
Also don't forget the uses of scutellaria but you need to make sure of your
diagnosis/prescription accuracy.
Western herbalists around here constantly prescribe echinacea but I find
that if there are open sores they will not heal until the client ceases
using the echinacea? Seems to be a climatic/energic effect in this area as
practitioners 300km south or north dont see the same problem.

Arnen Parker
Nimbin Australia




From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:06:59 1994
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From: aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au (Arnen Parker)

>Kushi's idea is that the meridians are the primary structure
>of the physical body, sort of an energetic framework or pattern around which
>the nervous system, organs, bones and muscles form. These, therefore, are the
>material condensation of energy. I find a certain mind-body, matter/spirit
>dichotomy in much of the discussion of meridians. It would be like referring to
>the arteries or nerves as separate from the body.

This would make sense if one starts from the premise that there is
essentially no existance of anything but the Tao - reminiscent of
Einsteinian thought. As such then any 'object' becomes a probability of
existance with certain ontological characteristics.

>I am also entertaining the
>idea of the acupuncture points as pathological phenomenon. That is, a body in
>perfect health would be experience as an integrated whole, not a entity with
>tender points all over it.

Ted Kaptchuk was over here a number of years ago and spoke about how if we
totally 'balanced' a person then they would be perfect and the UFOs would
come and take them away :-)
Ted had been discussing how the Zang-Fu dysfunction was the emotional and
psychological and physical characteristics that manifest in an individual.
Ergo, if you totally change these characteristics the individual, per se,no
longer exists.

Arnen Parker
Nimbin Australia




From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 09:07:07 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

RE: Tui na for HIV. I don't know of any literature, however I know a number of
practitioners of OM and Tui Na in New York. The best thing would be to call
Pacific Institute of OM in NYC at 212-982-3456, ask for Kevin and tell him I
sent you or your friend. Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 22 11:09:08 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Need recommendation for Accupunturist
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: steve@presoft.com

Hello:

I have a friend who would like a recommendation for an Accupuncturist
in the So. Cal. area.  Specifically Orange County.  She is in
northern O.C.

Anyone in the area?  If not, have any friends that work in the area?

Thanks in advance.

Steve
   
 Steve Kohlenberger, PreSoft Architects       Internet: steve@presoft.com


From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 23 05:59:31 1994
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Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 10:03:58 EDT
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Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: DonnIII@aol.com

Concerning the antibiotics thing:

I can't for the life of me imagine why OM should want to "emulate"
antibiotics.  The "magic bullet" concept of doing the body's work for it has
both positives...as pointed out by Jack and negatives... as alluded to in
Newsweek and being actively researched in many sites worldwide.  

The quite different approach of OM (as I understand it :-)  should be
complementary  not a replace ment.  IMHO.  

Donn Hayes



From london@calypso-2 Thu Jun 23 05:59:53 1994
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Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: DonnIII@aol.com

Concerning the antibiotics thing:

I can't for the life of me imagine why OM should want to "emulate"
antibiotics.  The "magic bullet" concept of doing the body's work for it has
both positives...as pointed out by Jack and negatives... as alluded to in
Newsweek and being actively researched in many sites worldwide.  

The quite different approach of OM (as I understand it :-)  should be
complementary  not a replace ment.  IMHO.  

Donn Hayes



From london@calypso-2 Fri Jun 24 11:15:58 1994
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Date: Thu, 23 Jun 1994 12:46:10 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Donn, 
   Could not agree with you more.
 Will communicate more later. . .however, since the comparisions of herbal
components and drugs is going on, I feel we should address this issue with
the most integrity possible, never compromising the principles of CM.

Z'ev




From london@calypso-2 Fri Jun 24 11:16:07 1994
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Subject: RE: Herbs as Antibiotics
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


Donn Hayes writes:

> I can't for the life of me imagine why OM should want to "emulate"
> antibiotics.  The "magic bullet" concept of doing the body's work for it has

I was thinking about this just before his post arrived -- more or less --
``what after twenty plus years do I want to do now that OM is becoming
an orthodoxy.''  (No complaint there, I'm only happy swimming against the
current.)    But, it seems to me that OM is biomedicalizing in direct
proportion to the prominence of T.C.M. (i.e.: integrated medicine).  Of course
I can't prove a word of this, but it seems to me that as the hands-on practices
(acupuncture, massage, martial arts, food, meditation) have become less
and less the center of attention, the field has become more doctor-like.

Qi is becoming a pluarality definition (typically ``energy;'') on which
people agree (and which it is not too safe to challenge).
Yesterday someone wrote me that ``as you know Bob, any practitioner
understands qi.''  I was totally floored.  I have never met an Oriental
physician who believed that their often considerable knowledge of how to
use the medicine was understanding.  For them, knowing medicine was simply
the field of play, understanding demanded personal culture.  I once knew
a wonderfully wild Shinto priest who left his job as the chief of the
finest and most admired Shinto shrine in Japan to travel around the world
finding places where the ``ki was right'' to build a shrine for world
peace --- where is his understanding of qi to go in a field
that limits qi to ``energy'' and enshrines books that introduce
treatments for the common cold by describing it as a viral infection?

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 25 11:21:15 1994
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Date: Fri, 24 Jun 1994 18:07:31 PST
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: RE: Herbs as Antibiotics
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Bob,
   That was beautifully expressed. . .I agree that there has to be a
movement to keep the soul of Chinese Medicine alive, which is simply to
demand consistency of translation, expression, historical survey and
practice with the root principles of the great classical texts.  Until
there is  more respect for the classical principles in Chinese
institutions, and more education and translation made available to Western
students, the uneasy biomedicalization will continue to take place and eat
away at the very foundations of Chinese medicine.
   It is not that Chinese medicine cannot treat serious illness. . .it can
do so elegantly in many cases, or that we should completely eschew any
Western medical information.  However, as Manfred Porkert pointed out in
his introduction to Diagnostics of TCM, Chinese medicine has its own logic
which is consistent with its world-view.  We do not mix up physics and
astronomy, why dilute Chinese medicine with Western medicine?  I feel that
history will tell that the so-called 'synthesis' of Western and Chinese
medicine was an abortion, attempted by those with a superficial knowledge
of each discipline.  Sometimes mutual respect begins with differentiation
of principles and practices.

Z'ev Rosenberg




From london@calypso-2 Sat Jun 25 11:21:27 1994
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In-Reply-To: <1994Jun21.162049.1287820@electriciti.com> from "Zev J. Rosenberg" at Jun 21, 94 04:20:49 pm
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.berkeley.edu (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: Internal meridians
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

Hi. I haven't posted before, just trying to get a feel for the general
ambiance. About me, I'm a 23 year old college student who is in the process
of changing from a Computer Science major to one of my own devising,
emphasizing certain basic Premed classes with classes from Psychology,
Human Biodynamics, and Anthropology. I plan on attending a school of TCM
after I graduate.

Now, why would I want to make such a drastic change? Well, a few years ago
I came down with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (although no Western doctor
ever diagnosed it as that. I just started seeing a CFS specialist on my
own.) and nothing helped. I was progressively getting worse and worse, and
only luck beyond luck saved me. I'd tried TCM before, but a friend found
a doctor he'd heard of and asked me to give it one last try. I did and he
helped when nothing else did!

So when I was finally strong enough to return to school, I began to think
that TCM would provide me with much more meaning in life than CS ever 
could. I hope this continues to be true as I continue my studies.

Anyway, I have some comments on the following:

> I have not read Felix Mann's latest book, but I would be interested.
> Right off, I feel that it is another one of the modern 'saviors of science'
> who is trying to sell the religion of reductionist science to vanquish 3000
> yrs. of 'superstition'.  What makes physiological entities any more 'real'
> than energetic phenomena that are confirmed by observation of generations
> of practitioners?

Physiological entities are more "real" because they can be seen and touched.
I mean, an organ is an organ. It's right there! But "energetic phenomena"
seems to be a tad more open for debate. How can you really know what you're
observing is actually what you think it is?

It seems to me that the Western understanding of the body is right on--as
far as it goes. It doesn't understand everything, especially how all of the
different systems are linking into a synergistic whole, but what it does
understand seems to be pretty verifyable.

I've been reading some textbooks on TCM and the descriptions of the systems
don't seem to be quite as scientific. Certain mental activities are associated
with the heart, for example, which seems to have no physiological basis.

My question is: how was it determined where the meridians are and what organ
they are associated with? Is the theory really based on study and observation
or is it more like a theory someone thought up which happened to work? I don't
want to open a can of worms here, but Freud's psychoanalytical theory seems
very much to be in the latter category. Perhaps TCM could be similar?

> It is indicative of the arrogance of modern science that
> it will negate other world-views, as the Crusades attempted to vanquish
> pagan ways of life.  

Amen.

KK


From london@calypso-2 Sun Jun 26 10:33:33 1994
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From: treehouse!bobl@gv-gate.gvg.tek.com (Bob Lickter)

I have been a pharmacist for 25 years and have worked in many settings.  I 
found the TIME article very accurate.  Since the insurance companies will pay 
for very expensive antibiotics that create resistant strains, physicians think 
nothing for writing a scrip for Suprax when Penn VK would work.
Bob



From london@calypso-2 Wed Jun 29 10:34:19 1994
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X-Original-Envelope-From: donews!ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU!Christopher.Young Sat, 2 Jul 94 01:56:48 PST
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  TCM Theory -- Is it empirical?
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>> Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
>> for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
>
>Can you recommend any good books that describe how the theory was derived?
>Also, I'd really appreciate recommendations on books in general. Recently
>at the bookstore, there were just so many I didn't know which one to get.
>
Chinese Herb Medicine and Therapy by Dr. Hong-Yen Hsu and Dr. William G.
Peacher has a chapter on the histrory of Chinese medicine. It is a succinict
description of the development of TCM through history. Dr. Hsu has published
a number of books on TCM, and founded the Oriental Healing Arts Institute. I
have found his books quite useful and interesting.

>Right now all I want is the theory. How was it determined that certain
>things be linked to certain organs? How does the concept of heat and cold
>mesh with yin and yang and with the five elements?

On theory, there is a book called Basic Thories and Princples which is the
first of a five book series called Practical Traditional Chinese Medicine
and Pharmacology by Geng Junying and Su Zhihong, published by New World
Press of Beijing. Dr. Geng is from the Beijing College of TCM; I don't know
about Ms. Su. You might find this book useful.

>> Beyond that, even in western science, things which cannot be directly are
>> postulated and are presumed until disproven. The atom and the quark were
>> theorised before they were observed, as was the black hole. 
>
>Ah, but see, I understand WHY these things were postulated. I still don't
>know what gave rise to the postulate of the meridians, Chi, and other
>aspects of the Chinese medical theory.

Oh, well, in that case, you need to read about the history of TCM. Probably,
some of the source books have such information. I know that herbs were actually
tested by tasting them (sometimes with fatal consequences when they goofed).

I strongly recommend that in your reading, you include texts from written by
Asians is studying the history. I do not entirely trust western anthropologists
to provide an accurate account, since many start with a skeptical view of TCM
and assume it is superstition rather than anything else. This colors their
research. (Such cultural bias is not uncommon is historical research... not
just in Asian, but in Ireland and other places, and in different subject
areas. You should be aware of that coming from the other direction too).

			-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:00:44 1994
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Date: Fri, 1 Jul 94 22:47:18 EDT
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: TCM Theory -- Is it empirical? (fwd)
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>> > Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
>> > for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
>> 
>actually this statement about emoiricism is highly questionable
>
>truly empiricist medicine does not use diagnostic categories, 
>materialistsic or energetic, because each patient, each condition, 
>and each interaction is unique and the treatment  needs to be equally 
>unique; thus the analysis of one patient interaction is not 
>transferable to any other occasion, even for that same patient.

Hmm. I have two responses to this:
1. TCM does treat each case individually, in many ways it scrutinizes
   the individual characteristics of the patient to a much greater degree
	than does western. 

2. Your comment about empiricism seems off.  Empiricism relies on past
	observation to help analyze a current situation, and to help predict the
	outcome of a potential action given past experiences.

>generally I think there is way too much naive idealism about the 
>Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,

Hmmm. Seems to me to be a reasonable assertion that Taoism had a more
significant impact of TCM that did Confucianism. This is especially true
when you consider how preoccupied many Taoist schools of thought are
with obtaining long life. Why do you feel otherwise?
(BTW, Hsu notes also the influence of Indian medicine on TCM. The Indians
arriving in China were probably Buddhists, though I don't know if Buddhist
beliefs had much influence on the development of Chinese medical theory).

By the way, as I skim through a book (by Hsu), I am noting that very early
on, surgery, herbs, acupuncture, moxibustion and massage were elements of
Chinese medicine. He talks about a lot of the medical documents and so on
which were developed over the course of history (I haven't looked at this
for a while).

				-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:01:34 1994
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: herbs vs. Western drugs
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christine <christin@maxwell.ee.washington.edu>

The following is part of a discussion we've been having on the 
alt.support.arthritis newsgroup.  We would be interested in commentary on 
whether it is possible to be on both heavy-duty arthritis medications and 
begin taking Chinese herbs.  I know it's not possible to be specific, nor 
do we want to be, but what about in general.  Please also post responses 
to the alt.support.arthritis newsgroup.

Christine Charters

> The pharmacologist I went to was part of the New England School of 
> Accupuncture, a place to learn accupuncture, where you can be treated by '
> students' who are learning, or be treated by their teachers, or individual 
> practitioners who rent space in the bldg.  The Herbal pharmacy is part of the 
> operation, so they know the mixtures from that perspective quite well.  When I 
> asked about the drug interaction, the herbalist replied to talk to my 
> practitionery and let her know what drugs I was on, that she would prescribe 
> the right combinations.  To the contrary, my practitioner, a Chinese woman who 
> had been trained in China as well as the states, responded with the wind/rain/
> blockage thing, saying they weren't drugs and you didn't need to concern 
> yourself with interactions.  I trusted the herbalist on this one, and felt 
> there should have been a clearer explanation and understanding of what stuff I 
> was on and how it would interact. Without a better answer, I felt it more 
> prudent not to take the tea.  If it were a matter of increased pain levels to 
> stop the western drugs to try the eastern ones, perhaps I'd consider it.  
> However, without the western drugs, I can't walk or move or even sleep without 
> excruciating pain, and therefore would have no way to get to their clinic to 
> start the herbs and wait a few weeks for them to take effect.  I had hoped to '
> overlap' treatments so that I could wean off the western drugs, but realizing 
> the potential clash, couldn't do so.  I'm hoping for that effect with the Bee 
> Venom Therapy, to push my own body into a response so that I could reduce the 
> steroids.  I don't know if I'll be able to reduce the MTX.  At the moment, I'm 
> lucky to get through the day - my right hand is swollen like a paddle - had a 
> sting last night on a knuckle - keep making typos, can't type with fingers 
> swollen like hot dogs.  It's really hot and itchy and the skin is very taut (
> spelling?).  
> 
> Looking forward to stirring up the controversy!  Have a good 4th.
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Date: 7/1/94 2:51 PM
> To: Mary Mlodzinska
> From: Christine
> From: Mary Mlodzinska <Mary_Mlodzinska@qmgate.wgbh.org>
> Return-Receipt-To: Mary Mlodzinska <Mary_Mlodzinska@qmgate.wgbh.org>
> Subject: RE>Re: OsteoA/Acupuncture Treatment?
> From: Mary Mlodzinska <Mary_Mlodzinska@qmgate.wgbh.org>
> 
> I'm re-posting this to the newsgroup because I think it's an important 
> discussion.
> 
> > Just wanted to point out that the Chinese herbs you take ARE drugs.  You 
> > shouldn't really mention that they allow you to be drug free.  That's the 
> > reason they work.  
> 
> I just looked up the word "drug" in the dictionary.
>   "A substance used as medicine in the treatment of disease."
> 
> So yes, Chinese herbs are drugs as defined above.  That yes, they do 
> in fact contain anti-inflammatory agents and some of the 
> herbs can/could contain steriods.  I don't know enough about herbs to 
> know which ones.
> 
> However, I would not consider these herbs to be pharmacological "drugs" 
> as we imagine them in the West.  First of all, even in the current search 
> by drug companies for "miracle drugs" in the forests of the Amazon and in 
> the Chinese pharmacopoeia, a plant is chosen, then they try to identify the 
> "active ingredient".   The active ingredient is extracted and replicated.
> In this process they often increase the strength of the active ingredient.
> It is my understanding that in Chinese medicine they would prefer to use 
> the entire plant or it's parts because there are substances that 
> act in concert with each other.  The Western concept of isolating, 
> synthesizing and "purifying" active ingredients from the plants makes 
> the agent too strong, thereby causing side affects.   I would consider 
> the Western pharmacopoeia to be drugs because of this feature of purity 
> and strength and because it is no longer a plant.  An interesting 
> economic feature of this process is that you can't copyright a plant.  
> Therefore using plants in medicine has no profit.  Chinese herbs are much 
> cheaper to use.
> 
> > They contain powerful anti-inflammatory drugs, 
> Agents
> > and many contain steroids.  
> yes
> > One of the reasons many in the medical community are leary 
> > of them is that dosage amounts are not controlled, nor are the substances 
> > clearly identified.  
> 
> Yes.  But the modern medical community doesn't know why aspirin works.  
> And you have to admit with arthritis patients, even in Western medicine, 
> there is a certain amount of "Well, lets try this drug and see how you do 
> on it."  Many physicians do not know how we (the patient) with respond to 
> Western drugs.  Recently, several people died of liver failure on a drug 
> study.  (I'll look up the article and post next week.)
> 
> > I myself don't think there's anything all that wrong with them, but one 
> > should be very very wary of taking them if you are ON a western drug.  
> > I tried to get answers about drug interactions when I was prescribed 
> > some by my chinese accupuncturist, while I was already on prednisone 
> > and MTX.  Her answer was that there was no problem, that Chinese medicines 
> > deal with the wind and rain blockages inside the body etc etc etc.  
> > Talking to the herbal pharmacologist there, however, he outright pointed 
> > out that they ARE drugs, and that interactions with medication is something 
> > to be concerned with.  
> 
> Your point is well taken.  You mention, however, that your Chinese 
> acupuncturist prescribed your herbs and then you went to a 
> pharmacologist.  My point in my post re: acupunture was that it should be 
> a doctor who is well versed in both acupuncture and herbology, or if it 
> is an acupuncturist alone, they should be collaborating closely with an 
> herbologist.  I think it is a more comprehensive treatment of arthritis 
> which is a serious, medical condition.
> 
> I myself did not take Chinese herbs and Western medicines together, 
> though I have taken aspirin and Chinese herbs together once or twice 
> since.   I have been on a lot of Western drugs, injected cortisone, 
> Clinoral, Naprosyn, tons of aspirin, Tandril or oxyphambutazone (sp?).  I 
> used Western medicine for 10 yrs.  At the time I switched to Chinese 
> medicine, I didn't have insurance.  I was having difficulty walking.  I 
> couldn't afford the prescription for Naprosyn.....so, no I wasn't on 
> anything when I started with the Chinese herbs.   The only negative 
> transition effect was some headaches.  From the placement of the 
> headaches it was concluded that it was liver detoxification.  But 
> non-steroidal anti-inflammatories target the liver.
> 
> > I never took the tea.  Just wanted to pass this on to you.
> 
> Well, perhaps the lack of insurance forced me into the arms of Chinese 
> medicine.  I was always looking for a way of getting off the Western 
> drugs.  I found Western drugs to be very strong.  I felt as if my stomach 
> was getting weaker and weaker.  I would always eat food to try to 
> mitigate the effects of the drugs but it didn't seem to help.  If I 
> missed a dose or ran out of something my knees would swell up.  I did not 
> feel as though my general health was improving when I was on Western drugs.
> Granted, I could keep down the inflammation when there was a flare-up 
> which is important.  It seemed to me that I was becoming increasingly  
> dependent on the drugs instead of less so.
> 
> I have found my case to be quite the opposite with Chinese medicine.  I 
> know that I am healthier and stronger.  I know that if I have a flare 
> that I will be able to control the disease once again.  The 
> response may not be as fast as with Western medicine but that eventually 
> I can contain the flare and once again, be walking normally again.  I no 
> longer panic or feel the disease is spiraling out of my ability to manage it.
> 
> 
> I do not believe there is a "cure" for my arthritis and I am no longer 
> looking for one.   It's something I live with but I try to reduce as much 
> as possible it's effects on my life.
> 
> I'm sorry you didn't try the tea. The herbology I understand to be about 
> 50% of traditional Chinese medicine.    A transition off of Western drugs 
> and onto Chinese drugs may well be rocky..... it's hard to say or tell 
> people what to do....this damn stuff is so painful......it was worth it 
> for me.
> 
> Christine Charters



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:02:03 1994
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From: Mitchell Bebel Stargrove <mitch@teleport.com>


On Wed, 29 Jun 1994, Kanon Kubose wrote:

> 
> > Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
> > for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
> 
actually this statement about emoiricism is highly questionable

the Chinese traditions use empirical data within a rationalist structure

truly empiricist medicine does not use diagnostic categories, 
materialistsic or energetic, because each patient, each condition, 
and each interaction is unique and the treatment  needs to be equally 
unique; thus the analysis of one patient interaction is not 
transferable to any other occasion, even for that same patient.

see the works of Harris Coulter, esp. The Divided Legacy as to how 
these terms have been used to describe currents of Western medicine, 
back to the Greeks from whom they derive

generally I think there is way too much naive idealism about the 
Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,
see Medicine in China:  A History of Ideas by Unschuld

also Timing and The Times by Bob Flaws
and/or Ted Kaptchuk's intro to Fundamentals of Chinese Medicine

Blessings and Good Health,
Mitch

(a.k.a. Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, N.D., L.Ac.) 
mitch@teleport.com




From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:02:12 1994
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        Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: TCM Theory -- Is it empirical?
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From: Mitchell Bebel Stargrove <mitch@teleport.com>

On Wed, 29 Jun 1994, Kanon Kubose wrote:

> 
> > Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
> > for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
> 
actually this statement about emoiricism is highly questionable

the Chinese traditions use empirical data within a rationalist structure

truly empiricist medicine does not use diagnostic categories, 
materialistsic or energetic, because each patient, each condition, 
and each interaction is unique and the treatment  needs to be equally 
unique; thus the analysis of one patient interaction is not 
transferable to any other occasion, even for that same patient.

see the works of Harris Coulter, esp. The Divided Legacy as to how 
these terms have been used to describe currents of Western medicine, 
back to the Greeks from whom they derive

generally I think there is way too much naive idealism about the 
Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,
see Medicine in China:  A History of Ideas by Unschuld

also Timing and The Times by Bob Flaws
and/or Ted Kaptchuk's intro to Fundamentals of Chinese Medicine

Blessings and Good Health,
Mitch

(a.k.a. Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, N.D., L.Ac.) 
mitch@teleport.com



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:02:32 1994
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Subject: Books on History and Development of C.M.
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu> writes:

> Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
> for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
[. . .]
> Can you recommend any good books that describe how the theory was derived?
[. . .]
> Anyone have opinions on these or other good books? I'd really appreciate it!

At only 9.95 paperback, (probably in your U.C. Library), Unschuld is
your best bet for the development of pre-modern traditional Chinese medicines
from the magico-demonic tradition:

       Paul U. Unschuld, Medicine In China, A History of Ideas,
       University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1985

If you want to go this far, the following brings you into the Sung-Jin-Yuan
(~12 century) absorption of pharmaceutics into the theoretical structure:

       Unschuld P.U.; Medicine in China: A History of Pharmaceutics;
	   Berkeley, University of California Press, 1986.

One of three texts from U. Michigan covering events in modern
(post-revolution) China, probably the best choice vis-a-vis the issues
of biomedicine:

        Sivin N.; Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China;
        Ann Arbor, Center for Chinese studies, University of Michigan, 1987.

This article will give everyone who is writing about the biomedical issues a
look at why/how the Canadian/Australia/US bias for importing post-revolutionary
T.C.M. links to biomedicalization in current Chinese health policy.

       Unschuld P.U.; Epistemological issues and changing legitimation:
       Traditional Chinese medicine in the twentieth century;
       in Leslie C., Young A., eds.; Paths to Asian Medical Knowledge;
       Berkeley, University of California Press; 1992.

> Right now all I want is the theory. How was it determined that certain
> things be linked to certain organs? How does the concept of heat and cold
> mesh with yin and yang and with the five elements?

Mostly through the magico/demonic tradition; Unschuld, ``History'' noted
above, covers this.  Also, Joseph Cambells ``Masks of God'' series
volume on Oriental Mythology will help put the Chinese mythic tradition
into a broader perspective.  Get the following from the U.C. Library
and read the Introduction, it has a really fine discussion of the
development or organ correspondences through metaphoric logic:

      Wiseman N., Boss K.; Glossary of Chinese Medical Terms and
      Acupuncture Points; Brookline, Massachusetts, Paradigm Publications, 1990.

> Ah, but see, I understand WHY these things were postulated. I still don't
> know what gave rise to the postulate of the meridians, Chi, and other
> aspects of the Chinese medical theory.

It's not clear.  While there were clear evidences prior, it is fairly
certain that the circulatory linkage of channels (what we now think
of when we use the word ``meridian'' or ``channel'')  was an innovation
of the ~1stCent text Nan Jing.  There is speculation, mainly that
palpatory information was a primary source, but there is no consensus
at this time (and may never be due to the absence of primary documents).

> This is what I want to know. If I am truly to pursue TCM as a career, I
[. . .]
> I mean, if a needle is inserted at a certain point, is it really doing

You can't have this certainty at this time.  Up to more or less this
year a neuro-chemical theory could be considered the ``leading''
Chinese/Western explanation for point effects.  Recently however even its
leading proponent, Bruce Pommerantz, has allowed that it is not
an entire explanation.  Others are even more critical and a central
issue to all scientific rationale -- whether or not particular
needle stimulae or ``deqi''  initiate different responses --
has only just been brought up here in the West.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:02:41 1994
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From: GORDON ALLEN R <gordon@horton.Colorado.EDU>

Try M. Porkert, "Theoretical Foundations of Chinese Medicine"


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:03:12 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>


> Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
> for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 

Can you recommend any good books that describe how the theory was derived?
Also, I'd really appreciate recommendations on books in general. Recently
at the bookstore, there were just so many I didn't know which one to get.

I'm not really interested in specifics at this point, such as what point
does what, the detailed meaning of the different types of pulse, or all
the other things I'll probably have to memorize once I go to acupuncture
school.

Right now all I want is the theory. How was it determined that certain
things be linked to certain organs? How does the concept of heat and cold
mesh with yin and yang and with the five elements?

So far I've read two books from the Publishing House of Shanghai College 
of Traditional Chinese Medicine from their set of twelve books "A Practical
English-Chinese Library of Traditional Chinese Medicine." Does anyone
have any opinions on this set? The editor-in-chief is Zhang Enqin.

I found the books packed with information, probably quite useful for
reference, but it isn't that good at actually teaching the theory to
someone who doesn't already know it. A single sentence to describe something
is not enough for a beginner although more knowledgeable people will most
likely appreciate the brevity.

Now I'm thinking of trying "The Web that Has No Weaver," "Between Heaven
and Earth," by Harriet Beinfield, "Fundamentals of Traditional Chinese
Medicine," by Shuai Xuezhong, "The Yellow Emeror's Classic of Internal
Medicine," translated by Ilza Veith, and "Root of Chinese Chi Kung," by
Yang Jwing-ming. There were also some very expensive books in the bookstore,
but unfortunately I've forgetten the names.

Anyone have opinions on these or other good books? I'd really appreciate it!

> Beyond that, even in western science, things which cannot be directly are
> postulated and are presumed until disproven. The atom and the quark were
> theorised before they were observed, as was the black hole. 

Ah, but see, I understand WHY these things were postulated. I still don't
know what gave rise to the postulate of the meridians, Chi, and other
aspects of the Chinese medical theory.

This is what I want to know. If I am truly to pursue TCM as a career, I
want to be confident that what I am studying has a good root. I need to
be sure it is what it claims to be.

I mean, if a needle is inserted at a certain point, is it really doing
what the theory says or is it just a glorified placebo effect or faith
healing phenomenon? 

KK


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:03:24 1994
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Subject: Re: RE: Herbs as Antibiotics
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From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca


Arnen writes:

>Which brings me to my favourite question / area of study - why is
>biomedicine taught as a parallel stream in Chinese medicine courses?
>For the past fifteen years in Australia, students have studied biomedical
>'health sciences' as a strand throughout their study of Chinese medicine.
>With the movement of TCM / Acupuncture into the (government funded)
>universities this teaching practise is becoming entrenched without being
>questioned.
>Does this practice occur in other countries.

In the part of Canada where I live (Toronto), this is definitely the
case where training in Shiatsu is concerned.  Although there are
several people teaching Shiatsu privately (almost exclusively focussed
on the Oriental Medical model), the two large schools (accredited by
the government) are biomedically focussed. This is actually making
for a bit of tension within the practicing community of Shiatsu
therapists here. The biomedically-trained therapists tend to believe
that the other group are unqualified.  The therapists trained ex-
clusively in OM tend to question whether what the other group is
practicing is really Shiatsu! Unfortunately, it's becoming a bit
of a political mess as well, since everyone wants a piece of the
Provincial Health Insurance pie. We even have two distinct professional
associations. They won't have anything to do with each other.


>I would have thought that the best
>educational approach would have been to teach TCM solely in the early years
>and then teach biomedical subjects as yet another theory to be included
>within TCM. 

This seems like a more reasonable approach to me. The aforementioned
Shiatsu schools do it the other way around: first they study Western
anatomy, physiology, and pathology, then they begin learning about
OM. When you do it this way, it seems that OM just gets squeezed and
fit into the biomedical model rather than standing on its own as 
a different way of looking at things. I'm sure this isn't the view
that all people trained this way come away with, but it's a danger.

>In Australia I feel that the only way that the only way to halt the
>biomedicalisation of TCM is to question the institutions which teach it. To
>this end I have even gone and got enrolled at a university to question how
>TCM is taught.
>Arnen Parker
>BAc DAc DCH GDSocEc MHlthSci
>Southern Cross University
>Lismore, NSW, Australia

You are very brave! Good luck :)

Vanessa Williams
vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca





From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:03:28 1994
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From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Donn,
  Enjoying your recent commentary.  I am in complete agreement with your
point of view.
Of course, in order to be clear on the differentiation and possible
meetings between Chinese and Western medicine, the educational system in
Chinese medicine must evolve to more classical sources and texts; Li Dong
Yuan, Zhu Dan-xi, Nei Jing, and Shang Han Lun come to mind.  We need more
translations of decent pulse texts, as well.
   I hope more courses like Ted Kaptchuk's course at Harvard will evolve to
educate Western docs as well.

Keep on posting.

Z'ev Rosenberg




From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:04:03 1994
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Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
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From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>Physiological entities are more "real" because they can be seen and touched.
>I mean, an organ is an organ. It's right there! But "energetic phenomena"
>seems to be a tad more open for debate. How can you really know what you're
>observing is actually what you think it is?
>
>I've been reading some textbooks on TCM and the descriptions of the systems
>don't seem to be quite as scientific. Certain mental activities are associated
>with the heart, for example, which seems to have no physiological basis.

Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. The
theory concerning meridians and channels and so forth appears to explain the
why these work. The classification of herbs into five flavors and four
properties is also very sensible, and clearly is related to the constituents
of the herbs. Through literally thousands of years of observations, TCM has been
developed. So to that extent, it has also been developed in a very scientic
fashion.

Beyond that, even in western science, things which cannot be directly are
postulated and are presumed until disproven. The atom and the quark were
theorised before they were observed, as was the black hole. But their
existance explained other observable phenomena, and that is how we knew they
existed. And so it is with Chi.

Actually, I believe Tui Na practitioners can feel the Chi, and can those
who practice Chi Kung otherwise actively utilise their Chi in their life,
so it's not even just assumed.

				-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:04:12 1994
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In-Reply-To: <199406261416.HAA15060@netcom.netcom.com> from "Donn Hayes" at Jun 26, 94 08:16:51 am
To: Multiple_Recipients_of_List_OrMed@UCSD.EDU (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.berkeley.edu (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: Internal meridians
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>


> Are you saying that the only part of you that is "real" is the part that
> you can see in the mirror in the morning?  I would say that, hopefully, the
> most important part of us MAY be that which we cannot see.  

Important, yes, but less easily validated, tested, or otherwise exposed
to scientific scrutiny.

> Oriental medicine as I understand it tends to utilize and develop
> subjective observation and attempts to make it a useful tool.  So that it
> just "happens" to work.  

This is fine. A lot of good things, things that just come from subjective
experience, work, but TCM also has a theory to it, not just a method. Is
this theory just something like a mnemonic tool or is there some value to
it as an actual theory where it can be subjected to validation or used
to make predictions?

Basically, my original question still stands: How was this theory created?
Is it like Freud's theory or is it more scientifically based?

KK


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:04:21 1994
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From: dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes)


>Which brings me to my favourite question / area of study - why is
>biomedicine taught as a parallel stream in Chinese medicine courses?


>My observation has been that trying to learn / operate in two totally
>different paradigms is akin to mild schizophrenia :-) Is it any wonder that
>some attempt to build a new 'world' in which the madness makes sense.
>Given that TCM is a heterogenous paradigm - it can happily allow
>conflicting theories to coexist - 

Agreed!!!  I also find that my results are inversely proportional to how
much I try to mix "Western" and OM.  That is not a judgement of either map.
 Just a judgement on which one I should embrace while doing my work most
elegantly.  

Donn Hayes




From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:04:55 1994
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From: Erik Hatcher <esh6h@fulton.seas.virginia.edu>

On Jun 19, 19:30, MILLER@ucsvax.sdsu.edu wrote:
> Subject: Re: Internal meridians
> I have not read Felix's new book. I would like to get it for our library. Who
> is his publisher for "Reinventing"?
> 
> -- End of excerpt from MILLER@ucsvax.sdsu.edu



Sorry for the delay.

Publisher is Butterworth Heinemann, ISBN 0-7506-0844-7.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:04:59 1994
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Subject: Re: herbs as antibiotics
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From: dorr@civix.win.net (David Orr)
X-Original-From: dorr@civix.win.net (David Orr)

 
>As provocation (of discussion, not flames) I might suggest that we need 
>to remember not to try to treat "western" diseases with "asian" medicine, 
>and vice versa.  Each system has its own diagnostic paradigm and can't 
>really be successful without using all of its inherent tools.

This is a very interesting point.  My mother has been treated for
what western doctors call a tooth absess (wanting $4,800) for a
few hundred dollars by herbs.

On the other hand, I sent quite a bit of time at the
acupuncturist's office trying to rid myself of what western
doctors would call jock itch.  Once day while in a western doctors
office to take a company mandated blood test, I brough up the
subject of the jock itch.  The doctor prescribed an anti-fungal
and the problem has disappeared.

The question is where is that line when diagnosis and treatment
should cross from one diagnostic paradign to another?

I have yet to find a doctor that is confident of makin this shift
and am therefore left with this responsibility.

David 



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  2 09:05:04 1994
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From: aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au (Arnen Parker)

>Dear Bob,
>   That was beautifully expressed. . .I agree that there has to be a
>movement to keep the soul of Chinese Medicine alive, which is simply to
>demand consistency of translation, expression, historical survey and
>practice with the root principles of the great classical texts.  Until
>there is  more respect for the classical principles in Chinese
>institutions, and more education and translation made available to Western
>students, the uneasy biomedicalization will continue to take place and eat
>away at the very foundations of Chinese medicine.
>   It is not that Chinese medicine cannot treat serious illness. . .it can
>do so elegantly in many cases, or that we should completely eschew any
>Western medical information.  However, as Manfred Porkert pointed out in
>his introduction to Diagnostics of TCM, Chinese medicine has its own logic
>which is consistent with its world-view.  We do not mix up physics and
>astronomy, why dilute Chinese medicine with Western medicine?  I feel that
>history will tell that the so-called 'synthesis' of Western and Chinese
>medicine was an abortion, attempted by those with a superficial knowledge
>of each discipline.  Sometimes mutual respect begins with differentiation
>of principles and practices.
>
>Z'ev Rosenberg


Which brings me to my favourite question / area of study - why is
biomedicine taught as a parallel stream in Chinese medicine courses?
For the past fifteen years in Australia, students have studied biomedical
'health sciences' as a strand throughout their study of Chinese medicine.
With the movement of TCM / Acupuncture into the (government funded)
universities this teaching practise is becoming entrenched without being
questioned.
Does this practice occur in other countries.

My observation has been that trying to learn / operate in two totally
different paradigms is akin to mild schizophrenia :-) Is it any wonder that
some attempt to build a new 'world' in which the madness makes sense.
Given that TCM is a heterogenous paradigm - it can happily allow
conflicting theories to coexist - compared to western science's homogenous
striving for one unified theory, I would have thought that the best
educational approach would have been to teach TCM solely in the early years
and then teach biomedical subjects as yet another theory to be included
within TCM. This makes sense if any theory, or medicine, is considered to
be only an analogy of a reality.
Unfortunately to change teaching practises in this way would mean that
'biomedicine' would have to accept that there are other legitimate
analogies in viewing health and illness. This, by the homogenous nature of
biomedicine alone, is potentially very difficult if not impossible.

In Australia I feel that the only way that the only way to halt the
biomedicalisation of TCM is to question the institutions which teach it. To
this end I have even gone and got enrolled at a university to question how
TCM is taught.

Arnen Parker
BAc DAc DCH GDSocEc MHlthSci
Southern Cross University
Lismore, NSW, Australia




From london@calypso-2 Tue Jul  5 20:22:28 1994
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Subject: Cultural Bias
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


Recently stated:

> I strongly recommend that in your reading, you include texts from written by
> Asians is studying the history.I do not entirely trust western anthropologists
[. . .]
> and assume it is superstition rather than anything else. This colors their
> research. (Such cultural bias is not uncommon is historical research... not

That Chinese traditional thought is ``feudal superstition'' was and is
official C.C.P. policy.   That qi is ``matter,'' that T.C.M. ``needs raised
to the level of a modern science,'' and is replete with ``metaphysical
manipulations'' are the expression of Chinese writers working for
government presses.

Sound's like ``cultural bias.''

Don't forget that you can argue that your culture's scientific and
academic leaders are untrustworthy because you do not live in China.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Wed Jul  6 11:02:48 1994
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re: TCM Theory -- Is it empirical?
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christine <christin@maxwell.ee.washington.edu>

> 
> > > >generally I think 
> there is way too much naive 
> idealism about the > >Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,
> > 
> > Hmmm. Seems to me to be a reasonable assertion that Taoism had a more
> > significant impact of TCM that did Confucianism. This is especially true
> > when you consider how preoccupied many Taoist schools of thought are
> > with obtaining long life. Why do you feel otherwise?
> 
> Hsu's book is nice but I doubt that many historains would consider it 
> authoritative. The Taoist impact on medicine is primarily in terms of 
> qigong, the notion of the tantien, the emphasis on longevity, and a bias 
> toward naturalism (at some periods).
> The SYSTEM is largely Confucian with aspects of content coming from many 
> schools
> read Unschuld
> 
> the role of Buddhist temple medicine , as with Taoist temple medicine, 
> continued, but this is not really in the realm of the system of medicine
> 
> > By the way, as I skim through a book (by Hsu), I am noting that very early
> > on, surgery, herbs, acupuncture, moxibustion and massage were elements of
> > Chinese medicine. He talks about a lot of the medical documents and so on
> > which were developed over the course of history (I haven't looked at this
> > for a while).
> > 				-- Chris.
> as with qigong, astrology, fengshui, nutrition....
> Blessings and good health,
> Mitch

The theory of yin/yang and the five elements are Taoist and underlie TCM 
diagnostic theory.  Quite a significant influence, I should think.

Christine


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jul  6 11:03:11 1994
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Subject: Re: Books on History and Development of C.M.
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From: Marta E Hanson <hanso092@maroon.tc.umn.edu>

This is in response to Bob Felt's suggestions for reading on Chinese
medicine. 

I would suggest a new book, recently published by Westview press, for the
best account of the clinical encouter in contemporary China to date.

	Judith Farquhar. Knowing Practice: The Clinical Encounter of
	Chinese Medicine. Published in a series called Studies in the 
	Ethnographic Imagination.

ANother new book based on the anthropology of medicine which I think 
deals with many important issues relevant to practitioners of TCM is called.

	Knowledge, Power, & Practice: The Anthropology of Medicine and
	Everyday Life.  Edited by Shirley Lindenbaum & Margaret Lock.
	University of California Press, 1993.

This book was published in the same Comparative Studies of Health Systems
and Medical Care series in which "Paths to Asian Medical Knowledge" was
published.

ONe note about Unschuld's books, he has published prolifically and quickly
and as a result his earlier books suffer from being too cursory and
superficial.  They should be read critically. ONe of his great
contributions, in contrast, has been his translations of Classical Chinese
texts which include the Chinese original text and attempt to tackle
problems in interpretation.
	Paul Unschuld. Nanjing: THe Classic of Difficult Issues. 
	University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1986.

	Paul Unschuld. Forgotten Traditions of Ancient Chinese Medicine:
	The I-hsueh Yuan Liu Lun of 1757 by Hsu Ta-Ch'un.
	 Paradigm Publications, 1990.

As for Nathan Sivin's Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China, I would
say that it does more that deal with the issues of biomedicine by offering
one of the best analyses in English on the fundamentals of TCM theory,
concepts of health and disorder, and view of the Body as well as a
complete translation of a Chinese textbook on TCM from the late 1970s.

Would like to know what others think of these books and hear about other
suggestions for good TCM summer reading.

Marta Hanson






From london@calypso-2 Wed Jul  6 11:03:20 1994
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Subject: About Su Zhihong
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From: aparker1@alsvid.scu.edu.au (Arnen Parker)

Chris Young wrote:
>On theory, there is a book called Basic Thories and Princples which is the
>first of a five book series called Practical Traditional Chinese Medicine
>and Pharmacology by Geng Junying and Su Zhihong, published by New World
>Press of Beijing. Dr. Geng is from the Beijing College of TCM; I don't know
>about Ms. Su. You might find this book useful.
>
Su Zhihong is a very experienced translator of Chinese medical texts,
specialising in ancient Chinese script and current clinical works. She is
fluent in five languages and was the first 'official' WAFAS translator.
She currently works as a practitioner of Chinese medicine in Hamilton, New
Zealand, and has a work on dietic prescription awaiting publication.

Arnen Parker
BAc DAc DCH GDSocEc MHlthSci
Southern Cross University
Lismore, NSW, Australia




From london@calypso-2 Wed Jul  6 11:03:28 1994
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Subject: Re: TCM Theory -- Is it empirical? (fwd)
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>> >> > Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
>> >> > for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
>> >
>> >truly empiricist medicine does not use diagnostic categories, 
>> >materialistsic or energetic, because each patient, each condition, 
>> >and each interaction is unique and the treatment  needs to be equally 
>> >unique; thus the analysis of one patient interaction is not 
>> >transferable to any other occasion, even for that same patient.
>> 
>> Hmm. I have two responses to this:
>> 1. TCM does treat each case individually, in many ways it scrutinizes
>>    the individual characteristics of the patient to a much greater degree
>> 	than does western. 
>
>the use of diagnostic categories at all invokes conceptual models
>the individual is compared to these models
Well, I haven't seen (yet) a form of medicine which doesn't use diagnostics
in some form. Standard Western Medicine certainly does; they even have code
numbers (SNOBOL, I think is what at least one system is called). Perhaps I'm
just not following you on this one. Perhaps somebody else out there can explain
it.

>> 2. Your comment about empiricism seems off.  Empiricism relies on past
>> 	observation to help analyze a current situation, and to help predict the
>> 	outcome of a potential action given past experiences.
>
>>your use of the word "emppiricism" is not consistent with the use of that 
>>term in the history of western medicine. The Empirical school of medicine 
>>is a distinct school of thought and practice that specifically DOES NOT 
>>rely on past observation or attempt to predict anything; in fact these 
>>are expl;icitly excluded from the model. See Coulter or other standard 
>>texts on the history of medicine, esp. Greek medicine.
>
Well, in that case, the term "empirical" as used in medicine does not
have the same meaning as the dictionary or scientific use of it. Empirical
generally implies drawing conclusions from experience and observations.

>> > >generally I think 
>there is way too much naive 
>idealism about the > >Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,
>> 
>> Hmmm. Seems to me to be a reasonable assertion that Taoism had a more
>> significant impact of TCM that did Confucianism. This is especially true
>> when you consider how preoccupied many Taoist schools of thought are
>> with obtaining long life. Why do you feel otherwise?
>
>from having taught history of medicne for five years and having read 
>Unschulsd and other sources on many occasions.
>Hsu's book is nice but I doubt that many historains would consider it 
>authoritative. The Taoist impact on medicine is primarily in terms of 
>qigong, the notion of the tantien, the emphasis on longevity, and a bias 
>toward naturalism (at some periods).
>The SYSTEM is largely Confucian with aspects of content coming from many 
>schools
>read Unschuld

I'll try to get hold of him, though I don't know why this guy is a better
reference than many others. The impression I get skimming over Kaptchuk's
book is also that Taoism is a major influence, whereas Confucianism appears
to be much less significant. When I think of Confucianism, I think of the
Imperial Governmental structure and my own family structure, and the structure
of the Chinese Community. I am quite aware of that. But the yin and yang are
Taoist concepts, not Confucian, and they play a major role is TCM. Perhaps
you can point out a section in the Analects which would make the Confucian
influence most clear.

I also don't understand why you view the belief of Taoist influence as
"naive idealism". Why do you feel this is an ideal?

A passage struck me from Kaptchuk's book, which I thought I'd just quote here:

	Is Chinese Medicine an art? Is it a science? If we mean by science the
	relatively recent intellectual and technological development in the
	West, Chinese medicine is not scientific. It is instead a prescientific
	tradition that has survived into the modern age and remains another
	way of doing things. But it does resemble science in that it is
	grounded in conscientious observation of phenomena, guided by a
	rational, logically consistent and communicable thought process. It
	has a body of knowledge with standards of measurement that allow
	practitioners systematically to describe, diagnose, and treat illness.
	Its measurements, however, are not the linear yardsticks of weight, number,
	time, and volume used by modern science but rather images of the 
	macrocosm. Yet it also demand the artistic sensitivity of synthetic
	logic- always aware that the whole defines the parts and that the pattern
	may transform the significance of any one measurement within it: What
	is yin in one person may be yang in another. Because it deals with
	images, Chinese medicine allows and demands a recognition and assessment
	of quality.

						-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Wed Jul  6 11:03:49 1994
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Subject: Re:  Cultural Bias
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From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>That Chinese traditional thought is ``feudal superstition'' was and is
>official C.C.P. policy.   That qi is ``matter,'' that T.C.M. ``needs raised
>to the level of a modern science,'' and is replete with ``metaphysical
>manipulations'' are the expression of Chinese writers working for
>government presses.
>
>Don't forget that you can argue that your culture's scientific and
>academic leaders are untrustworthy because you do not live in China.

I don't follow this sentence... why can I argue that my "culture's ...
leaders... are untrustworthy" because I don't live in China. How does that
allow me to argue that?

Neither of the Chinese governments are particularly Chinese in the
traditional sense. Especially the Chinese Communist Party in Mainland China,
where the government tried to destroy all things truly Chinese... temples, 
literature, art... you name it, they destroyed it (don't forget
the Cultural Revolution). Communism is a Western form of government,
and the government of China is a corrupt government which is Chinese only
by the genetic makeup of its leaders, not by its philosophical underpinnings.
And those of Communist ideology are hardly in a position to be calling anything
else superstition or metaphysical manipulations, consider their goofy ideas.
Overall, I think Western influence in Asia has been for the
worst, not withstanding some good which has come from it.

And I repeat, much historical writing has cultural bias in it, regardless
of the history you are reading. Even European history. Try reading American
history books from just 30 years ago, and see how they painted our treatment
of First Nations people. Or of Russia... I remember my Jr. high history books
portrying all Russian Communists as having eye patches and scars down the
length of their chins. Other histories left out things historians felt
uncomfortable with, such as homosexuality (see Boswell's work). And others,
also considered scholarly works, squeezed history into models with which they
felt comfortable. Unfortunate though it may be, that happens. I think an alert
for cultural bias is quite legitimate.

I imagine TCM has some flaws and perhaps some elements which may be
unsupportable by the evidence. On the other hand, this is unquestionably true
in Western medicine... a fact I think anybody with AIDS or cancer, or caring
for somebody with AIDS or cancer, can atest. Certainly, history is replete
with examples such as leaches and so on. Or devices Western Medicine uses but
cannot explain its mechanism, such as asprin. This does not mean the either of
these systems are solely based on superstition; it is merely indicative of
their imperfection.

The underlying point I'm driving at is that some people try to understand
TCM from a Western viewpoint; that is, with Western axioms and an understanding
from the start that the Western way is correct from the beginning. Approaching
it that way guarantees a shallow understanding, and a potentially destructive
approach to the subject matter. This has been a fundemental problem since at
least Cromwell, and undoubtedly it has in many instances worked the other
going the other direction as well. In a broader context, it had lead,
ultimately, to many very basic problems in Asian, Africa and in the Americas.

To understand anything from another culture, you have to be willing to
suspend your beliefs for a moment and understand their premises. To
do to otherwise is injust, IMHO. After you've allowed for that, then you
can come to your own conclusions.

But as a rule of thumb, the truth is usually somewhere between the
various explanations.

			-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul  6 14:58:00 1994
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From: Marta E Hanson <hanso092@maroon.tc.umn.edu>

Could you tell me why I had a problem sending this message through the
oriental Medicine list address as listed above?



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From: Marta E Hanson <hanso092@maroon.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Books on History and Development of C.M.
To: The OrMed Mailing List <OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com>
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This is in response to Bob Felt's suggestions for reading on Chinese
medicine. 

I would suggest a new book, recently published by Westview press, for the
best account of the clinical encouter in contemporary China to date.

	Judith Farquhar. Knowing Practice: The Clinical Encounter of
	Chinese Medicine. Published in a series called Studies in the 
	Ethnographic Imagination.

ANother new book based on the anthropology of medicine which I think 
deals with many important issues relevant to practitioners of TCM is called.

	Knowledge, Power, & Practice: The Anthropology of Medicine and
	Everyday Life.  Edited by Shirley Lindenbaum & Margaret Lock.
	University of California Press, 1993.

This book was published in the same Comparative Studies of Health Systems
and Medical Care series in which "Paths to Asian Medical Knowledge" was
published.

ONe note about Unschuld's books, he has published prolifically and quickly
and as a result his earlier books suffer from being too cursory and
superficial.  They should be read critically. ONe of his great
contributions, in contrast, has been his translations of Classical Chinese
texts which include the Chinese original text and attempt to tackle
problems in interpretation.
	Paul Unschuld. Nanjing: THe Classic of Difficult Issues. 
	University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1986.

	Paul Unschuld. Forgotten Traditions of Ancient Chinese Medicine:
	The I-hsueh Yuan Liu Lun of 1757 by Hsu Ta-Ch'un.
	 Paradigm Publications, 1990.

As for Nathan Sivin's Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China, I would
say that it does more that deal with the issues of biomedicine by offering
one of the best analyses in English on the fundamentals of TCM theory,
concepts of health and disorder, and view of the Body as well as a
complete translation of a Chinese textbook on TCM from the late 1970s.

Would like to know what others think of these books and hear about other
suggestions for good TCM summer reading.

Marta Hanson








From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Thu Jul  7 09:03:54 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.berkeley.edu (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: Cultural Bias
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> The underlying point I'm driving at is that some people try to understand
> TCM from a Western viewpoint; that is, with Western axioms and an understanding
> from the start that the Western way is correct from the beginning. Approaching
> it that way guarantees a shallow understanding, and a potentially destructive
> approach to the subject matter.

This is true, but it goes both ways. A lot of what Chinese authors say
is biased also. Some authors like to link everything together and take
it on faith that the fanciful stories they've heard as children are
fact. Taoism has been totally perverted in many ways, but this is what
a lot of Chinese understand as being Taoist.

I agree with you though on what you say about approaching TCM with a
Western viewpoint. Doing so is wrong because it will result in a warped
sense of what TCM is. 

I just want to also point out that there are also problems with Chinese
authors that readers must be wary of. 

I'm now half-way through Ted Kaptchuk's "The Web That Has No Weaver,"
and I think it is fantastic. He really seems to suspend the Western
thinking mode and has been able to see TCM from its cultural context.
It is a nice, easy to read, introduction to TCM that also goes into
a good level of technical detail. I think it was a good place for me
to begin and now I can pursue more specialized avenues of study from
this strong foundation.

Again, I'm not interested in the nity grity of diagnosis and treatment.
That will all be had in the actual school. Until then, I want to study
the history, development, underlying theory, and things like that.

Your advice about Western vs. Chinese authors is well taken, but it
seems like the Chinese are not as concerned with these things. That is
all taken for granted. Even so, I think my next book will be Yang Jwing-Ming.
Can anybody tell me about this guy? Does he know his stuff? Is he a
good writer?

After getting through a few of these layman's books, then I think I will
start in on Unshuld and some of the other books people have recommended
that seem a bit too scholarly for me right now.

Also, I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has recommended
books to me. I'll keep my eyes open for them... actually, I was just at
the bookstore recently and didn't see any of the recommended books. I
guess I could order them, but I'd like to know a bit more than just the
author and title reference. Could those of you who gave me just an author
and title reference go into a bit more detail about why you recommend
the book that you did? If so, I would be most grateful! How do they
compare to books with similar titles? Can you tell me something about the
author? What is his stance and general viewpoint? 

Thanks!

KK



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Thu Jul  7 10:07:26 1994
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On Fri, 1 Jul 1994 Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU wrote:

> >> > Actually, TCM has a very empirical base to it. Formulae and the conformations
> >> > for which they are described have been arrived at through observation. 
> >> 
> >actually this statement about emoiricism is highly questionable
> >
> >truly empiricist medicine does not use diagnostic categories, 
> >materialistsic or energetic, because each patient, each condition, 
> >and each interaction is unique and the treatment  needs to be equally 
> >unique; thus the analysis of one patient interaction is not 
> >transferable to any other occasion, even for that same patient.
> 
> Hmm. I have two responses to this:
> 1. TCM does treat each case individually, in many ways it scrutinizes
>    the individual characteristics of the patient to a much greater degree
> 	than does western. 

the use of diagnostic categories at all invokes conceptual models
the individual is compared to these models
> 
> 2. Your comment about empiricism seems off.  Empiricism relies on past
> 	observation to help analyze a current situation, and to help predict the
> 	outcome of a potential action given past experiences.

your use of the word "emppiricism" is not consistent with the use of that 
term in the history of western medicine. The Empirical school of medicine 
is a distinct school of thought and practice that specifically DOES NOT 
rely on past observation or attempt to predict anything; in fact these 
are expl;icitly excluded from the model. See Coulter or other standard 
texts on the history of medicine, esp. Greek medicine.

> > >generally I think 
there is way too much naive 
idealism about the > >Taoist (vs. Confucian) impact on Chinese medicine,
> 
> Hmmm. Seems to me to be a reasonable assertion that Taoism had a more
> significant impact of TCM that did Confucianism. This is especially true
> when you consider how preoccupied many Taoist schools of thought are
> with obtaining long life. Why do you feel otherwise?

from having taught history of medicne for five years and having read 
Unschulsd and other sources on many occasions.
Hsu's book is nice but I doubt that many historains would consider it 
authoritative. The Taoist impact on medicine is primarily in terms of 
qigong, the notion of the tantien, the emphasis on longevity, and a bias 
toward naturalism (at some periods).
The SYSTEM is largely Confucian with aspects of content coming from many 
schools
read Unschuld

> (BTW, Hsu notes also the influence of Indian medicine on TCM. The Indians
> arriving in China were probably Buddhists, though I don't know if Buddhist
> beliefs had much influence on the development of Chinese medical theory).

Buddhism's impact is largely in the realm of an emphasis on compassion 
and the establishment of hospitals; the theory didn't penetrate much.
the influence of medicine from India was transient and didn't penetrate 
much
the theoretical model was not understood or assimilated
the practice of cataract surgey was tried for a century and then 
discarded in favor of herbs
the role of Buddhist temple medicine , as with Taoist temple medicine, 
continued, but this is not really in the realm of the system of medicine

> 
> By the way, as I skim through a book (by Hsu), I am noting that very early
> on, surgery, herbs, acupuncture, moxibustion and massage were elements of
> Chinese medicine. He talks about a lot of the medical documents and so on
> which were developed over the course of history (I haven't looked at this
> for a while).
> 
> 				-- Chris.
as with qigong, astrology, fengshui, nutrition....
> 
> 

Blessings and good health,
Mitch

(a.k.a. Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, N.D., L.Ac.)
mitch@teleport.com



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Fri Jul  8 07:07:01 1994
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Subject: Re: Cultural Bias
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>> The underlying point I'm driving at is that some people try to understand
>> TCM from a Western viewpoint; that is, with Western axioms and an understanding
>> from the start that the Western way is correct from the beginning. Approaching
>> it that way guarantees a shallow understanding, and a potentially destructive
>> approach to the subject matter.
>
>This is true, but it goes both ways. A lot of what Chinese authors say
>is biased also. Some authors like to link everything together and take
>it on faith that the fanciful stories they've heard as children are
>fact. Taoism has been totally perverted in many ways, but this is what
>a lot of Chinese understand as being Taoist.

Absolutely. I sort of tried to say that, but I don't think I was too
articulate at it. Everybody has baggage with which they approach new
subjects, and if they don't make the effort to control it, it will
certainly get in the way. It might anyway, despite best efforts, but
being aware and avoid may help come closer to a neutral presentation.

I really don't have time to write a report on each book I can think of;
why don't you talk with some people at the school you will be going to?
They must have a syllabus, and reccommended reading and so on.

BTW, I think Dr. Yang actually tries to connect the Western and Eastern
in theorical terms, trying to explain TCN in Western terms. you have to decide
how well he does it for yourself.

					-- Chris.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul  9 12:13:25 1994
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Subject: Cultural Bias; Books
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


Cultural Bias:

The point is not who is biased and who is not but whose bias is knowable.
The problem with Chinese work is not merely bias but the exigencies
of a third world economy and authoritarian political system that solidify
bias into method and policy both of which require knowing decision
processes that we cannot access reliably.

KK:

If you had not asked for books, I would have suggested that you learn
massage.  I've pretty much given up that suggestion because none
ever accept the advice.  But massage trains observational skill by
teaching you to respond to another human's body.  Organ patterns,
hot/cold, in/out, yin/yang, the five phases, the language of physiology
and pathology -- virtually everything in CM -- relates to something you
distinguish with your eyes, your hands, and human sensitivities.
People who are having difficulty earning a living in practice
complain about their textbooks, they tell us that the books do not
describe reality.  In my opinion, while this is a failure of knowledge
to some extent, it is practically a lack of observational skill.
I've talked about patients with many students who could tell
me about excesses and deficiencies but who totally missed the
fact one area of a patient's body was clearly colder.

Any way you look at it, before you find yourself in a what every
student describes as ``a grind'' of memorization driven by
license exams that demand data verbatim, use your time now to get what
you won't have time for in school.

Book Roughly:  

``History of Ideas'' paints Chinese intellectual history with
a broad brush.  Its author is the first to recognize the limitations
of a 1900 year survey, but it is enough information for you to recognize
styles of practice and diagnostic models in the context of
the social, economic and intellectual trends from which they derived.

Both Sivin's ``Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China'' and
Wiseman/Ellis' ``Fundamentals of Chinese Medicine'' show you the
Chinese sources from which most of your school books are derived
in formal linguistic presentation.   Sivin, whose work gathering
information from China goes back to WWII, emphasizes documentary evidence.
Wiseman/Ellis, who are much younger, work in modern clinical
environments and emphasize the concepts as seen via the images
of clinical experience.   Because both follow the standard approach to
translation whereby all text is translated according to a set methodology,
the two together show you the scope of the concepts, the interpretive
range, and the evocative power of the model.  (Wait three months
for the new edition of ``Fundamentals'' it will be cheaper and
contain many newly-added clinical definitions.)

I suggest these books not because they will help you through acuschool
but because they will help you understand what it is that you will learn
in acuschool.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2 Sun Jul 10 16:38:35 1994
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unsubscribe <hanso092@maroon.tc.umn.edu>





From london@calypso-2 Mon Jul 11 16:24:43 1994
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Subject: Re:  Cultural Bias; Books
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From: Christopher.Young@ISL1.RI.CMU.EDU

>Cultural Bias:
>
>The point is not who is biased and who is not but whose bias is knowable.
>The problem with Chinese work is not merely bias but the exigencies
>of a third world economy and authoritarian political system that solidify
>bias into method and policy both of which require knowing decision
>processes that we cannot access reliably.

Huh? I'm not sure I parsed this correctly, but it does seem to suggest that
1) it is possible to know when bias exists in countries other than China,
like the US, which is not always so, and 2) that China is the only source
which provides certain types of information and views on TCM (counter example:
Hong Kong.... affluent, democratic... at least until 1997). 

The moral of this debate is that you must judge for yourself by analyzing a
wide range of information. I merely point out that it is an illusion that
here in the US (where most of us on the list are located, I think) that
we can avoid bias and always know whether or not the info obtain is bias
or otherwse untrue. Don't forget that relatively recently doctors, backed
by the AMA, were saying cigarette smoking was a healthful activity. They
no longer say that, but 30 years ago they were.

Good Luck. Truth is hard to find. ANd this ends my part of the debate on this
subject.

				-- Chris.

PS: Except, I thought this list was forthe discussion of TCM, and West vs
East debate, which is why this is kind of bugging me.


From london@calypso-2 Mon Jul 11 16:24:48 1994
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From london@calypso-2 Mon Jul 11 16:25:40 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: RE: Cultural Bias; Books
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

KK:
 
If you had not asked for books, I would have suggested that you learn
massage.  I've pretty much given up that suggestion because none
ever accept the advice.  But massage trains observational skill by
teaching you to respond to another human's body.  Organ patterns,
hot/cold, in/out, yin/yang, the five phases, the language of physiology
and pathology -- virtually everything in CM -- relates to something you
distinguish with your eyes, your hands, and human sensitivities.>

KK, Bob's advice would be well taken. It is advice I give to beginning students
at Pacific College regularly. In many ways, OM is like music. Pretty straight
forward theory, a reasonable amount of facts to memorize, but after that you
need to practice to make anything that sounds like music. Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 13 17:21:37 1994
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From: Mitchell Bebel Stargrove <mitch@teleport.com>

the dialogue continued:
> 
> The theory of yin/yang and the five elements are Taoist and underlie TCM 
> diagnostic theory.  Quite a significant influence, I should think.

these two theories were not unigue to or originally from the Taoist 
school;
in fact historians such as Unschuld would consider them as competing schools

the general concepts were held by people and gropus that were definitely 
not Taoist

Blessings and good health,
Mitch

(a.k.a. Mitchell Bebel Stargrove, N.D., L.Ac.)
mitch@teleport.com



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 13 17:21:41 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>


> KK, Bob's advice would be well taken. It is advice I give to beginning students
> at Pacific College regularly.

I'm considering it, actually. Can you give me more information?
Where can I go to learn? How much time and energy will it take?
This is my main concern (as well as just how much benefit I will
gain from the training) because as I may have mentioned, I am
recovering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Going to UC Berkeley
with even half-time status is a tad too taxing for me, but I plan
to do it come Fall anyway.

KK



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 13 17:21:56 1994
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Listen I have tried to unsubscribe to this mailing list and have clearly
failed at the attempt.  They main problem is that the list is so poorly
organized that I often get doubles of the same message and cannot send
responses with assurance that it will reach the rest of the group.  Please
take me off I do not want to have to clean up my mail box everyday of
OrMed messages. Thank you.

unsubscribe <hanso092@maroon.tc.umn.edu>




From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 13 17:22:01 1994
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In-Reply-To: <9407081521.AA13408@ursa-major.spdcc.com> from "bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com" at Jul 8, 94 11:21:18 am
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> The point is not who is biased and who is not but whose bias is knowable.
> The problem with Chinese work is not merely bias but the exigencies
> of a third world economy and authoritarian political system that solidify
> bias into method and policy both of which require knowing decision
> processes that we cannot access reliably.

Then I'll probably have to study up on this. I guess Unschuld would be
the place to start, eh?

> If you had not asked for books, I would have suggested that you learn
> massage.

Won't I be learning that anyway in school? I suspect that you believe
that school will probably be heavy on memorization with less emphasis
on actual practice. If this is so, I have two questions:

1. What else can you tell me about school? What can I expect once I
start? How valuable is the L.ac. degree? What kind of skill will I
acquire there? You say: "use your time now to get what you won't have 
time for in school." Can you elaborate on this? What advice can you
give me besides studying massage? I've been planning on just doing
some reading and taking classes like anatomy and physiology.

2. As a complete novice whose only exposure to TCM is being a patient
and reading a few basic books, how should I go about learning massage?
I might be interested in getting some hands-on experience now just to
see if TCM is what I really want to do. Of course, there is the problem
of time, as I plan to complete my B.A. degree right now, taking some
pre-med and other classes that might help in TCM school. OTOH, I could
but that on hold maybe for a semester or a year to get into massage...

> ``History of Ideas'' paints Chinese intellectual history with
> a broad brush.

Do you think I'm ready for this book? Remember, all I know is what
I've read in one or two books like "The Web That Has No Weaver."
Do I have a strong enough foundation just from this to understand it?

> but because they will help you understand what it is that you will learn
> in acuschool.

This is what I want. From my limited experience, there seem to be a
broad range in the skill of Chinese doctors. I want to be a good one.
Not the best... I've given up the idea of making history, uniting East
and West, and those such ideas. I just want to help people and understand
the Chinese philosophies. The way I see it, TCM and my martial arts
training (Tai Chi) should all eventually lead to my ultimate goal of
Buddhist enlightenment. I have no mind for the scholarly aspects.

KK



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 13 17:22:08 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> I really don't have time to write a report on each book I can think of;
> why don't you talk with some people at the school you will be going to?
> They must have a syllabus, and reccommended reading and so on.

Sorry to hear you don't have the time. I am planning on taking a trip out
the the TCM schools nearby, but haven't had the time yet. I will though.

> BTW, I think Dr. Yang actually tries to connect the Western and Eastern
> in theorical terms, trying to explain TCN in Western terms. you have to decide
> how well he does it for yourself.

I just bought "Root of Chinese Chi Kung" this weekend. Yang Jwing-ming
surprised me, since he seems like he humbly maintains an open mind about
Chi Kung, yet he was born and raised in China. I do wonder how much actual
experience he has had with Chi Kung though, because a lot of what he says
seems to be just what he has read in the newly available texts, not things
he has actually done himself. To his credit, he does state that his
writings come from the texts and are just his own interpretations. I
like this honesty in a person, even if some of his reasoning and 
interpretations sound funny. Know of any authors with actual verified
experience with high levels of Chi Kung?

KK



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Fri Jul 15 15:12:06 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: School questions
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

KK had some questions about schools. I hope this 
helps.
 
How do I choose the right school for me?
 
While there is no simple way to answer this 
question, one way to start is to make a list of 
the issues that are important to you. Here are 
some ideas:
 
Is the school NACSCAOM-accredited?
 
The agency that accredits acupuncture schools is 
the National Accreditation Commission for Schools 
and Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine 
(NACSCAOM). NACSCAOM accreditation ensures that 
the school has met minimum standards and has 
passed a rigorous inspection by a team of experts 
in Oriental medical education. 
 
Does the college have financial aid?
 
Financial aid can ease the financial burden of 
attending medical school by providing interest-
deferred loans and in some cases, grants.
 
Is the school large enough to be financially 
stable?
 
Many small schools have sprung up recently. With 
few students and a short track record, their 
financial stability is uncertain. Small enrollment 
does not automatically mean more attention to 
individual students. Some small schools run like 
one-room schoolhouses with students of differing 
levels all in the same class. Most students prefer 
being in classes with a fair amount of other 
students. This provides more stimulation and 
opportunities for finding people with similar 
interests. As in many things, a proper balance in 
the students-teacher ratio is what is best.
 
Is the college clinic busy? Does it provide 
a rich learning environment? Does the clinic 
engage in any research?
 
A clinic should be busy enough to provide each 
intern with sufficient number and variety of 
patients. It should provide ample experience while 
allowing time for learning and supervision. Clinic 
time builds the intern's confidence in treating 
their own patients. Obviously, quality supervision 
is indispensable.
 
Is the curriculum suited to Western 
students? Do the professors teach in a 
manner familiar to Western students?
 
This is important. Western students are used to a 
certain amount of dialogue in class and the 
ability to ask in-depth questions of the 
professor. Your professor should have the ability 
to convey the material in a way that makes class 
time enjoyable. Remember you will spend almost 
3000 hours in class and clinic. Boring is not a 
word you will want to hear very often. 
 
Does the curriculum provide training in a 
wide variety of styles?
 
American patients vary widely in their preference 
of treatment styles. Some respond better to a 
gentle approach while others may need a less 
subtle treatment. A similar statement applies to 
the use of herbal remedies; a knowledge of pre-
prepared as well as bulk herbs is necessary. 
Nutrition is important too.
 
Does the administration of the institution 
run smoothly?
 
A competent administration is often overlooked in 
the decision process. However, this may be one of 
the most important factors. Consider this. The 
administration selects faculty, ensures the 
financial stability of the program, maintains the 
college's accreditation and licensure, assists you 
in your course selection and scheduling, 
administers financial aid (a complex process), 
promotes the college clinic, and much more. At the 
very least you should look for adequate staffing 
and the presence of a financial aid specialist. 
Check the service of the administration as much as 
you would the faculty. 
 
What is the cost of the program?
 
It is usually a mistake to choose a college, or any 
important item, based soley on price. Look more at 
what you are getting for your money. Does the 
college provide a clean, comfortable environment? 
Does it have an active 
library acquisition policy? Does it have other 
learning resources? Is it ensuring a busy clinic? 
Is it doing research? Will your college be in 
existence ten years from now? Remember part of 
your tuition goes to ensuring the college's long-
term success so that its reputation will benefit 
its alumni. You will want to graduate from a 
college with a national reputation. This is a 
factor when seeking employment or teaching 
positions. Remember if a school is spending all 
its resources month to month, they might not be 
around when you need them after you graduate. 
Sometimes financial responsibility means charging 
enough to provide long-term, as well as short-
term, benefits. 
 
Is the college flexible in scheduling and 
the course-load requirements?
 
Oriental medicine attracts a mature student. Often 
you have family or employment responsibilities. A 
college should be able to design a program to meet 
your needs and schedule (within reason). A program 
that forces you to take many more classes than you 
want may be in financial difficulty.
 
How much work is it?
 
In a word, lots. Yes there is a lot of 
memorization. There is a lot of hands-on work, too. 
At Pacific, nearly one-third of the program is 
hands-on. However, there are a lot of details that 
a graduate must have a the tip of their minds, as 
well as fingers. What many call intuition is really 
a lot of knowledge assimilated and stored in the 
subconscious and accessed at the appropriate time. 
Inspiration comes to the prepared mind, as they 
say. Good programs now approach 3000 hours (expect 
nearly double that in outside study). As mentioned 
above, strong programs should allow for scheduling 
flexibility for the graduate student. 
 
Again best of luck completing your work at UC and 
feel free to call me at Pacific at 619-574-6909. It 
really is a pleasure to talk to individuals 
seriously considering our profession. And, this is 
not just flattery, we can all tell you are taking 
your research into our profession seriously. You 
should be commended. Jack Miller



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Sat Jul 16 14:44:31 1994
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Subject: Massage, Books
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


KK writes vis-a-vis learning massage:

> I'm considering it, actually. Can you give me more information?

No, I'm on the East Coast.  Norm Kraft (moderator), Z'ev Rosenberg, and
Jack Miller [who replied already] are on the West Coast, others too I'm sure,
they know the territory, I don't.

> recovering from Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Going to UC Berkeley
> with even half-time status is a tad too taxing for me, but I plan
> to do it come Fall anyway.

Check with Jack Lincoln at Meridian Traditional Herbal Products.
( 73237.136@compuserve.com ) he's working with an M.D. who also has
suffered chronic fatigue, on CFS herb research, also,
with Stephen Birch (an acuwriter and doctoral candidate in research),
with some acupuncture protocols.  He may have enough experience
with CFS to offer some information on how much of a schedule you can
expect to keep.

[...]
>> The point is not who is biased and who is not but whose bias is knowable.
[...]
>Then I'll probably have to study up on this. I guess Unschuld would be
>the place to start, eh?

Hillier S.M., Jewell J.A.; Health Care and Traditional Chinese
Medicine in China 1800-1982; London, Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1983.
This covers the modern period.  There's other interesting articles,
in other books, for example, a description of how the Chinese genetic
research institutes were destroyed by political intervention, but the main
tale of Western nations' opium trade, colonial chauvanism, missionary medicine,
etc. comes through in this book.  Also, some of the stories of the
early days of the C.C.P. 's relationship with traditional medicine.

>> If you had not asked for books, I would have suggested that you learn
>> massage.
> Won't I be learning that anyway in school? I suspect that you believe

Things may have changed since I was last paying close attention to
school cirricula.  You might want to go to the Pacific College Symposia
in San Diego, you'd get to meet lots of students, see everyone's commercial
wares, and learn about courses, etc.   I usually don't much care for
convention events but they do a good job and the program
is pretty representative of what is going on in the field.

> that school will probably be heavy on memorization with less emphasis
> on actual practice. If this is so, I have two questions:

Yes, I've never heard a student report otherwise, but there's both
teachers and students on this list that could be more help than
I.  Again, things have probably changed since I was last involved with
an acuschool.

> > ``History of Ideas'' paints Chinese intellectual history with
> > a broad brush.
> Do you think I'm ready for this book? Remember, all I know is what
> I've read in one or two books like "The Web That Has No Weaver."
> Do I have a strong enough foundation just from this to understand it?

Well, P.U.U. is a native German speaker whose philological expertise
is Chinese.  His English is not bad but it is sometimes non-native.
It is a editing-down of his Ph.D. thesis so I think you've probably
read college material that was harder to handle.  Its like any other college
book, you get a survey that begins with an explict thesis.

[ . . . great things]
There's a saying in Chinese -- ``break your arm nine times and you'll
be a doctor yourself.''  It is good to know the ``big issues'' because
it helps you judge the materials so many of us are busy selling you, it
provides you a basic protection against supposition that goes too far from
what was likely for the culture that produced what we import, but,
as for doctoring, people's own experience is not uncommonly the
source of their expertise.  The masseur I admire most was patched
together by a Japanese shiatsu master after being more or less left
crippled.  Successful acupuncturists often know something
first hand.   For example, the fellow who is probably the busiest ``sports
acupuncturist'' on the planet is 35 and still beating 19 year old
touring tennis pros ---  after a car wreck a decade ago left his knees pinned
together like tinker-toys.   He knows acu-rehab, believe me!
I suspsect this is particularly true in C.M. because its modus operandi
is so ``hands on.''  Jack Miller said it nicely, like music.

Becoming a great doc is pretty big given the allotment of pain
and suffering that comes with the human package.

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 20 14:27:58 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> KK, there must be a half dozen schools that teach Shiatsu or Tui Na in the bay
> area. Check out the Yellow Pages or Natural Health magazine for ads.

I'll do this!

> Just start
> off slowly and you may find that doing bodywork helps your recovery rather than
> hinders it. Rest when you get tired.

Do you think schools will be flexible enough to allow this? UC Berkeley
certainly isn't! They make it very hard even to go half-time, but even
with that, I feel it is too much and my health suffers. I can understand
the reluctance to accommodate me, though. For one thing, it is a competitive
school with no room for slackers, but also, they simply have a program set
up that is difficult to modify.

I would think this would be the case at most learning institutions, including
a Tui Na school. They'll probably have some kind of program and I can't just
not participate when I don't feel up to it! If I did, I'd fall behind.

Please get back to me on this. I am planning on going to UC Berkeley, come
Fall, but I'm not too happy about it. I see it as detrimental to my recovery,
but that is a sacrifice I have chosen. I can't just sit at home sucking up
money! I guess it is just my personal feelings, but I must keep moving forward
toward financial independence, a degree, or SOMETHING. I've already spent
over a year out of school, doing nothing, just trying to get well, and I don't
want to go back to that again.

KK


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 20 14:28:31 1994
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Subject: Acu-news; cocain addicted mothers
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


An AP Piece everyone might want to see:
_____________________________________________________________________________
Copyright 1994. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

   BALTIMORE (AP) -- As a wide grin spread across his face, Mayor Kurt Schmoke
allowed eight acupuncture needles to be inserted into his ears.
   The occasion was a recent mayoral announcement of a program to treat female
drug abusers with the ancient Asian healing technique.
   "The jury is still out on this," Schmoke said while drug treatment
professionals and state health officials looked on.
   The aim of the Acupuncture -- Maternal Substance Abuse Project is to keep the
children of drug abusers out of foster care and help substance-abusing mothers
deliver healthier babies.
   The one-year, privately funded program is modeled on a similar program at
Lincoln Hospital in New York City. It will be administered by the University of
Maryland and will treat 150 women beginning in late September, city officials
said.
   The women will receive daily 45-minute acupuncture treatments. They also will
be required to supply daily urine specimens to be screened for drugs.
Counseling, job-training referrals, basic health care and day care also will be
provided.
   Although the state Department of Social Services will track progress the
women are making, there will be no guidelines for removing them from the program
or placing their children in foster care, organizers said.
   "We can tolerate failure," said Dr. Michael Smith, who developed the program
at Lincoln. "In many ways acupuncture is the easiest part."
   Addicts report that acupuncture makes them more relaxed and self-confident --
better able to cope with the difficulties of staying straight, Smith said.
Needles are inserted into different parts of the ear, which are believed to
correlate with many parts in the body.
   "I am giving a message to a certain part of the body to be more effective,
more balanced," said Smith, whose program treats about 1,500 addicts a year.
   "The acupuncture gives the women a feeling of empowerment because it is a
self-healing process," said Jeanette Yearde who helps run the acupuncture clinic
at Lincoln. "It starts making them think and helps clear the fog."
   Schmoke reported feeling a cold sensation as the needles were inserted and a
rushing feeling for the first few minutes.
   "I had a sensation like you're on a fast ride and (when) you just get off the
ride, your body is still in motion," the mayor said.
   Results are real and measurable, Smith said. For example, the average birth
weight at Lincoln for women with more than 10 visits is 6 pounds, 10 ounces
compared to 4 pounds, 8 ounces for women with fewer than 10 visits.
   Without treatment, about 40 percent of babies born to cocaine-addicted
mothers have to be placed in incubators because of low-weight problems caused by
drug exposure. However, 76 percent of pregnant women in the Lincoln program give
birth to drug-free babies.
   Baltimore is eager to try something new, said Dr. Peter Bielenson,
commissioner of the Baltimore City Department of Health. The city has 48,000
addicts, of which 18,000 of them are women, and has the highest rate in the
nation of emergency room visits for heroin addicts.
   Maryland spends at least $42 million a year to treat infants born to
drug-abusing mothers. Each day, four drug-exposed babies are born in Baltimore.
   "It certainly is not getting any better," Bielenson said.
   Schmoke, who has been criticized for his strong support of a needle exchange
program, denied that the program is coddling drug addicts.
   "We are not looking at this as a retreat at all," Schmoke said. "We're saying
'This is more effective, your streets will be safer, rather than investing in
more prisons."'
   The $275,000 program is being funded by the Abell Foundation and the Soros
Foundations.



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 20 14:28:41 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> Check with Jack Lincoln at Meridian Traditional Herbal Products.
> ( 73237.136@compuserve.com ) he's working with an M.D. who also has
> suffered chronic fatigue, on CFS herb research, also,

I wrote to this address today, but the mail was undeliverable. Is
this the correct address?

KK



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Jul 20 14:28:45 1994
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From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@soda.berkeley.edu>

> No, I'm on the East Coast.  Norm Kraft (moderator), Z'ev Rosenberg, and
> Jack Miller [who replied already] are on the West Coast, others too I'm sure,
> they know the territory, I don't.

Yes, I've already got a reply from Mr. Miller, but he's in San Diego. I'll
look around on my own up here. 

Actually, when I asked you for more info, I didn't mean in terms of specific
schools, but rather your reasoning. From your experience, what should I be
looking for at this point? You recommend massage, but what does that mean
exactly? What can I expect at a school? What will I learn there that I "won't
have time for in acuschool?" 

I suspect that the answer is simply more practical, hands-on experience. I
can understand how that would be very important... book-knowledge is no
good without it! On the other hand, don't I need to memorize the fundamentals
first, such as the meridian theory and pathways, what points to use for what,
how to diagnose, etc.? Or will this all come with time? If so, what's left
to learn at acuschool?

As you can see, I'm full of questions. I'm quite ignorant about all of this
stuff, so I can use all the help I can get!

KK


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Thu Jul 21 22:11:10 1994
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From: "Clifford R. Hume" <chume@netcom.com>


I was wondering if anyone can recommend a good introductory technical book
on acupunture.  I am a third year medical student and previously worked as
a research scientist for 8 years.  I am interested in the potential
application of acupuncture (and other Eastern Medicine) within the
framework of traditional Western medicine.  Also could anyone tell me 
what the standard training program is to become proficient at acupunture 
and if there are any  programs in the New York City area.

TIA,

Cliff Hume       chume@netcom.com



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Thu Jul 21 22:11:20 1994
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From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

the reluctance to accommodate me, though. For one thing, it is a competitive
school with no room for slackers, but also, they simply have a program set
up that is difficult to modify.
 
I would expect that most programs of bodywork (tui na, etc.) are going to be
very flexible. Most are not degree programs. Most are not that long. Most
administrators are going to be sympathetic to your physical condition. My
experience is that when students even try to meet me half way, I do my best to
accomodate their needs. Pacific College allows Master's degree candidates in OM
to complete their program in anywhere from 3-8 years tho' I discourage taking
more than 6. I have not seen their abilities suffer from going part time. Quite
the contrary, when someone is doing the program at an appropriate pace for
them, they are often happier, well-balanced and better able to assimilate and
appreciate what we have to offer rather than feeling stress. 

RE: Massage as a pre-req to acuschool. I don't think that Bob or myself were
trying to indicate that you can just learn massage and that the rest of the
important knowledge will just be absorbed through your fingers. We were just
pointing out that touch is a fundamental skill not to be ignored amidst the
mountains of details...but very important and useful details. You will never
now the proper herbal formula without a lot of study. 

Why don't you give me a call. I'd be happy to answer any of your questions
about the professions. We could cover most of your areas of interest and
concerns pretty quickly. I could not duplicate the expertise you have received
here regarding the many texts that have been suggested, but I can certainly
address all the educational issues and more.My # is 619-574-6909. Ask for Jack


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul 23 10:00:44 1994
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From: schwa059@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Steven Schwartz)

Good starting books are:
        Foundations of Chinese Medicine
                by Giovanni Macciocia

        The Web That Has No Weaver
                by Ted Kapchuk

        Between Heaven and Earth
                by Harriet Beinfield & Efrem Korngold

As far as schools in New York, I know of 3 - 
        1. Pacific College (associated with Pacific Inst of Calif.)
        2. Tri-State Institute of Traditional Chinese Medicine (NY & Ct.)
        3. The New School of Acupuncture (or just the new school - just
moved from                 Manhasset to Syosset in Long Island last year.)
Tri State might have the easiest to work with in some ways (I studied at the
Ct. location for 2 years in 1984) but you might want to lok into Pacific - I
was impressed by what they were doing and after being open for a few months
in NY they had some time to work out the bugs of a NY program.  
        If you add Acupuncture, TCM... I have one request - IMHO I feel that
you should take a full program to understand the basics of theory and
aplication and drop all western perceptions in how you see the body when
using this modality.  The minimal training required for a Doctor in NY when
I was there last only qualify you to call yourself an Acupunctureist - NOT
TO BE ONE.  It is cook book pathology based which is opposite to the theory
it is based on.  Being a Shiatsu Instructor, my students constantly make me
aware of how difficult it is for some to stop looking at the pathology
(which is only another symptom) and embrace the vitality (the Qi...)
        Please do not take any of this as being critical of Doctors - what
they do is also needed - We just have to learn to work together. (I'm
starting to babble - time to go)

                Steven Schwartz
                schwa059@maroon.tc.umn.edu


>
>I was wondering if anyone can recommend a good introductory technical book
>on acupunture.  I am a third year medical student and previously worked as
>a research scientist for 8 years.  I am interested in the potential
>application of acupuncture (and other Eastern Medicine) within the
>framework of traditional Western medicine.  Also could anyone tell me 
>what the standard training program is to become proficient at acupunture 
>and if there are any  programs in the New York City area.
>
>TIA,
>
>Cliff Hume       chume@netcom.com
>
>
>
>



From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul 23 10:00:48 1994
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X-Original-From: "Sharon Lezotte (LIS)" <lezotte@luna.cas.usf.edu>

Some resources for  better information are:

American Association of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
4101 Lake Boone Trail
Raleigh, NC 27607
(919) 787-5181

American Foundation of Traditional Chinese Medicne
1280 Columbus Avenue, Suite 302
San Francisco, CA 94133
(415) 776-0502

International Foundation of Oriental Medicine
42-62 Kissena Boulevard
Flushing, NY 11355
(718) 321-8642

Acupunctruists who are M.D.'s
American Acadeny of Medical Acupuncture
5820 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 500
Los Angeles, CA 90036
(213) 937-5514

Two addresses in the N.Y. area are:
1. American Oriental Bodywork Therapy Association
50 Maple Place 
Manhasset, NY 11030
(516) 365-5025

Ohashi Institute
12 West 27th Street, 9th Floor
New York, NY 10001
(212) 684-4190

Just some references, hope they help...

Respectfully, 
Sharon A. Lezotte
lezotte@luna.cas.usf.edu






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Hello OrMed

I'm a new subscriber to this list and want everyone to know that I'll be 
lurking and occasionally asking questions.

My interest in OM is as a recent patient. I'm having a wonderful 
experience with an acupuncturist and Traditional Chinese Medicine 
practitioner by the name of Juanita Ayson in Valley Center, CA. I may get 
into my story later, but briefly, she's helping me recover from a 
laparectomy surgery I experienced in April (emergency tubal pregnancy), 
as well as addressing my blocked tube (my remaining one). 

The surgery zapped my energy and I believe the whole experience depressed 
me because I want to get pregnant. Since she's been treating me (since 
mid-June) I've experienced a return to my pre-surgery energy levels and 
beyond. `

I started seeing her on the recommendation of a friend being treated for
high blood pressure; I didn't know much about OM or TCM as an alternative
to allopathic medicine, and I am very, very pleased with my results. I
want to continue to learn more. 

She is now working with my 19-year old son on back and knee problems and 
will start working with my god-daughter (15 years) on balancing her 
energy, which is generally out of whack. 

I hope my presence as a lurker here (and occasional questioner and
contributor since I have a tendency to run my mouth) will not be a
problem. 

In positive energy,

Sandra Hall                                        hallsj@netcom.com 

Kye wazadde: tekiba kibi.  Whatever you have brought forth: is not bad.
Luganda proverb                                            It's all good.





From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul 23 10:01:05 1994
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From london@calypso-2 Sun Jul 24 10:37:07 1994
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Subject: Herbal Terms
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From: dmfjft@Arco.COM (Tilley James F (303)293-7533)


In "Chinese Healing Arts Internal Kung-FU" edited by William
R. Berk in the formulas reference is made to CANDAREENS,
MACE, and PICULE as in the following examples: tang-kuei of
each 2 MACE, dried ginger of each 5 CANDARENS, and Rice a
PICULE.  These terms are used in all the formulas and since
I am a newbie I would appreciate any help as to their
meaning.

Thanks,
Jim



From london@calypso-2 Mon Jul 25 10:06:24 1994
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From: dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes)

>In "Chinese Healing Arts Internal Kung-FU" edited by William
>R. Berk in the formulas reference is made to CANDAREENS,
>MACE, and PICULE as in the following examples: tang-kuei of
>each 2 MACE, dried ginger of each 5 CANDARENS, and Rice a
>PICULE.  These terms are used in all the formulas and since
>I am a newbie I would appreciate any help as to their
>meaning.
>
>Thanks,
>Jim

WHAT???

*********************************************
Oriental Herb Company
Manufacturers of Cold Snap and Stomach Chi
voice/fax: 303-674-2466
E-mail: dhayes@netcom.com
*********************************************




From london@calypso-2 Mon Jul 25 10:06:45 1994
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Subject: RE: East-West Medicine
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From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

RE: Schools in NYC. I am the President of Pacific College of Oriental Medicine.  
We have a branch in Manhattan called Pacific Institute of Oriental Medicine.
The Dean of the program in NY is Kevin Ergil. You can reach him at
212-982-3456. If you tell the receptionist that I told you to call, you'll get
through easier. 

The best intro book is Ted Kaptchuk's "The Web That Has No Weaver." Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Tue Jul 26 07:56:09 1994
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From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com


KK writes:

> Actually, when I asked you for more info, I didn't mean in terms of specific
> schools, but rather your reasoning. From your experience, what should I be
> looking for at this point? You recommend massage, but what does that mean
> exactly? What can I expect at a school? What will I learn there that I "won't
> have time for in acuschool?" 

What you won't have time for is discovering what you want, what the practical
expression of your intent to study acupuncture can be.  Furthermore, you
won't have time to see your intent in the context of the skill itself.  By
studying massage you gain a direct relationship with a patient (even if
that patient is only your fellow student in a massage school).  Some people
like dealing with patients.  Some don't.  In my opinion the former make
good acupuncturists and the latter don't, but whatever the case, there are
some people more attuned to massage, some attuned to the direct manipulations
of acupuncture, or more attuned to the literary and logical arts
of internal medicine.  I'm suggesting that first you get involved with
your hands and your senses -- learn to feel the body, respond to the
patient and try the relationships of doctoring.  Acquire a sense
of your own intent relative its daily realization.

Secondly, you can best judge for yourself how you will respond to the
clinical situation both physically and psychologically by trying it
out.  Massage school will help you do that.  Practice can be very
draining because people want a lot from you.  Even in practices that
are supposedly minimally psychologically interactive your patients
want more from you than just a treatment.  Even the most macho athlete
wants a degree of reassurance and confidence when he or she is in pain.
You should get a sense for this, for your response to it, and for
the extent to which it is invigorating and draining.

Third, I'm suggesting that before you immerse yourself in the
acquisition of details, you gather a sense of the evolution of the
experiences from which those details derive.  Before you occupy yourself
memorizing clinical data, get a sense for the social and
historical trends that produced those details.  This will help you
retain perspective about what you learn.  Knowing, for example, the
historical conditions at the time a traditional medical principle
derived makes it easier to understand its practical value.  Futhermore,
getting your ``hands-on'' before you acquire a lot of conceptual
knowledge provides an opportunity to develop a sense of your
own perceptual skills.

Finally, OM is a profession in the sense of its value to
society.  It is not yet a profession in the sense that it
has solid post-graduate career paths.  There are
less opportunities to go from intern, to resident, to attending,
to employment in an established institution and then, perhaps several
years later, to engage in private practice.   While the practitioner
associations haven't developed ``real numbers,'' that is, none can tell you
with statistical certainty that such-and-such a percentage of
graduate acupuncturists earn this or that much after a certain
time, it is pretty clear that you need a degree of
entrepreneurial skill to establish a practice.  So, the matter
of making decisions in the context of uncertainty,
is itself a good exercise for your career.

>> Check with Jack Lincoln at Meridian Traditional Herbal Products.
>> ( 73237.136@compuserve.com ) he's working with an M.D. who also has
>> suffered chronic fatigue, on CFS herb research, also,
> I wrote to this address today, but the mail was undeliverable. Is
> this the correct address?

Hmmmm!  I use this almost daily with no difficulty.  Try  401-727-2189

Bob Felt



From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Tue Jul 26 07:56:14 1994
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	     (from dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes))
	     (at Sun, 24 Jul 1994 08:55:03 -0700)
Organization: Argus Computing & Multimedia
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> WHAT???

Please remember that whatever you post to the list goes out to over=20
100 people. Quoting 15 lines to respond with one line is not the sort=20
of discussion we are trying to foster here, even though it may be=20
somewhat of a USENET standard. Unless, of course, that one line=20
contains a particularly brilliant insight into the discussion at
hand. :)

I would encourage everyone to become familiar with the Posting=20
Guidelines that were sent to you when you subscribed to the list.=20

The last thing I want to do is stifle discussion here, but at the
same time we need to keep our conversations as productive as we
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Your cooperation is much appreciated.

Norm (the list moderator)


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From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Tue Jul 26 07:56:18 1994
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Subject: Measures
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: textware!bob@ursa-major.spdcc.com

James writes:

> In "Chinese Healing Arts Internal Kung-FU" edited by William
> R. Berk in the formulas reference is made to CANDAREENS,
> MACE, and PICULE as in the following examples: tang-kuei of
> each 2 MACE, dried ginger of each 5 CANDARENS, and Rice a
> PICULE.  These terms are used in all the formulas and since

Todays standards for the PRC (the revised standard pharmacopedia of 1977):

liang = 30 g.
qian = 3 g.
fen =0.3 g
li =0.03 g.

>From the Ming forward to the present standardization:

jin, known as the catty, was 16 liang
liang, 10 qian (~ 31.25 g.)
qian, known as the mace, was one tenth of liang (~ 3.125 g.)
fen, known as a candareen, was one tenth of a qian

Pre-Ming the measures characters were the same but the weights associated
with those characters varied.

Picule could be estimated from a known formula but I do not find it
in my sources.  It is possibly idosyncratic, possibly a transliteration
of a local pronunciation.  I don't know.

Source:
Wisemann N., Boss K.; Glossary of Chinese Medical Terms and
Acupuncture Points; Brookline, Massachusetts, Paradigm Publications, 1990.
page 432.



From london@calypso-2 Thu Jul 28 12:37:52 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: RE: Massage school
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

Massage schools that teach Shiatsu may give you an overview of meridians,
points, etc. Doubtful that they will delve into theories of pathogenisis. We
present a lot of TCM theory in our holistic health practitioner program but we
are unique in that regard. I don't know of any acuschools in the bay area (I
keep presuming you're in the bay area because of your reference to UC
Berkeley) that have massage programs. You can call the American Oriental
Bodytherapy Assoc. (Long Island NY) for schools with better OM style massage
programs. AOBTA is in Manhasset I think. I have their # at my office if you
can't find it. 


From london@calypso-2 Thu Jul 28 12:38:06 1994
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Subject: RE: Reply to KK
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

>What you won't have time for is discovering what you want, what the practical
expression of your intent to study acupuncture can be.  Furthermore, you
won't have time to see your intent in the context of the skill itself.

I agree with everything that Bob says except the above, at least if it's taken
literally. While many endeavors require a great deal of time to acquire
requisite skills, there is in any day time for reflection and assimilation.
These are critical activities because as new knowledge is added, your
intentions may be modified. I often meet prospective students who "really only
want the acupuncture license so I can practice nutrition, macrobiotics,
homeopathy, whatever". After assimilating the wonders of OM, they often (99%)
create very nice integrated practices. I don't think they were inundated by the
new info and forgot their original intent. I wasn't and didn't. I, and the
others, simply acquired a broader perspective and new skills. All this said, I
too continue to encourage your experience with bodywork. But, as Bob pointed
out, your talents may lie elsewhere yet still direct you to OM, for instance
into herbology, nutrtition, and internal medicine. 

I would also encourage you to visit an OM office to get a look at the reality
of treating patients. Bob underscores an important point. Being a doctor is
tough work. Really tough in exactly the context that Bob mentioned: the
psychological. All patients need support, and even tougher, some don't get
better. Isaac Cohen is a fairly recent alumnus of Pacific College with a busy
practice in the bay area. I'm sure he's listed but if you can't find him I
have his # at my office. Give him a call and spend a day or two with him.
Mention my name. Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2 Thu Jul 28 12:38:17 1994
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             <Pine.3.87.9407261301.B3599-0100000@cory.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 10:18:36 -0700
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: dragon@ossi.com
Subject: Re: Massage schools
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Norman Morse <dragon@ossi.com>

In message <Pine.3.87.9407261301.B3599-0100000@cory.EECS.Berkeley.EDU>you write
:
>> What you won't have time for is discovering what you want, what the practica
>l
>> expression of your intent to study acupuncture can be.
>
>Here's what I've gathered from the phone book:
>

>Accupressure Institute

	Try this one, it is an excellent first step towards a career in TCM.
	I've known many excellent acupuncturists which started at this school.
	Even if you continue on to acupuncture and herb training, the 
	acupressure you learn at the Acupressure Institute is the best way
	to maintain the health of your patients, Other treatments are more
	powerfull, but more of a shock to the patients system. 

	Tell Brian O'Dea I sent you.

>Anyone have experience with any of these? Thanks for all the help!
>
>KK

-Norman

--------

Norman Morse                    Sr Software Engineer, Cultural Technologies.
<dragon@ossi.com>               Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions Inc.


From london@calypso-2 Sat Jul 30 22:30:27 1994
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From: schwa059@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Steven Schwartz)

        The number of massage/shiatsu schools offering a good foundation in
theory is growing.  I just formed a Shiatsu Dept. at the Minneapolis School
of Massage and Bodywork.  It uses the "Energetic Shiatsu - Five Element
Style" approach.  We go over all of the regular meridians and also the 8
extra meridians (just covered in the past few weeks), Luo channels and
divergent meridians.  As well aas a foundation in TCM, We also have a
foundation in Classical Chinese Medicine.  Because I just mailed my
application in to the AOBTA, I and My program will not be listed there yet.  
        I agree that the AOBTA is the best place to start in a search for a
good  school, but if you hear about another school check their program using
AOBTA standards as your reference (and ask why they are not associated with
them if possible)
        With this program, we now have 2 excellent Shiatsu Schools in the area.

                Steven Schwartz
                sch059@maroon.tc.umn.edu


>Massage schools that teach Shiatsu may give you an overview of meridians,
>points, etc. Doubtful that they will delve into theories of pathogenisis. We
>present a lot of TCM theory in our holistic health practitioner program but we
>are unique in that regard. I don't know of any acuschools in the bay area (I
>keep presuming you're in the bay area because of your reference to UC
>Berkeley) that have massage programs. You can call the American Oriental
>Bodytherapy Assoc. (Long Island NY) for schools with better OM style massage
>programs. AOBTA is in Manhasset I think. I have their # at my office if you
>can't find it. 
>
>
>



From london@calypso-2 Tue Aug  2 10:25:53 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: RE: Herbal Pharmacies
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: dmfjft@Arco.COM (Tilley James F (303)293-7533)

>>I notice this to be the case in the two pharmacies where I buy
>>herbs and patents.

> Just curious, what city is this in?

The two pharmacies are located on Federal Blvd near Alameda
in Denver.  They are located in a cluster of Vietnamese
stores but both are run by Chinese proprietors.  Other stores
in the area sell patent medicines but no herbs except already
packaged.  It pays to shop around because the prices vary
even on the most common patents.

Jim


From london@calypso-2 Sat Aug  6 10:26:15 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@donews.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Re:  Herbal Pharmacies
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: vwi@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca

Jim writes (preamble deleted to save space):

 >I notice this to be the case in the two pharmacies where I buy
>herbs and patents.  Patients 'seem' to only pay for what is
>prescribed.  There is a senior 'physician' at both pharmacies.
>In the back are small patient rooms.
 >Has anyone availed themselves of this kind of service?  What
>were your experiences?  Basically what can one expect?

>Thanks in advance
>Jim

The pharmacy from which I buy herbs and patents also offers this
kind of service. (This is in Toronto, Canada). Most of the time
there is a doctor available, but if not, the senior pharmacist
will also take your pulse and prescribe something. I don't use
the service myself because I have my own physician; however, friends
of mine have used it before. It seems to be the Chinese equivalent
of a walk-in clinic. Got a minor problem? Don't want to wait a week
for an appointment with your CMD (DOM in the States)? Go to the
drug store and ask for advice. I have never heard any complaints
about the advice given, and they don't ususally prescribe lots
of expensive stuff. I should add that it isn't free. Costs about
five bucks. Seems like a good deal to me.

Hope this helps,

Vanessa





From london@calypso-2 Tue Aug  9 13:26:08 1994
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Subject: RE: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: "Garcia, David" <DGARCIA@c40.ncel.navy.mil>


Myself and my wife would like to get some training in Tui Na and maybe some 
relief to our back problems. Does anybody know how to get in contact with Dr 
Yu Da-fang in Los Angeles I tried his number below but had no luck or can 
anybody recommend somebody else in L.A. or Ventura County, We live in 
Oxnard, Ca. but we are willing to travel to Los Angeles for a good teacher. 
Feel free to respond to me by Email or this list with a little more in depth 
information about Tui Na.

Thanks in advance
David H. Garcia
dgarcia@ncel.navy.mil
work (805)982-1764
Home(805)981-7548

 ----------
From: OrMed-error
To: dgarcia; Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed
Subject: tui na teacher
Date: Monday, June 06, 1994 12:00AM

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Subject: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 --
 >RE: Tui Na teachers
>I can also highly recommend Dr. Yu Da-fang in Los Angeles. He has lectured 
at
>Pacific and Pacific Symposium. Frankly if you could arrange something with 
him
>there would be little need to go to China, unless you want to see the Great
>Wall. His number, as of last year, was 818-576-1271. He is among the best 
we
>have seen, not only in terms of his Tui Na and Qi gong, but his 
understanding
>and utilization of "western" orthopedic and neurological evaluation. His
>English needs some work so he works with Dr. Paul Lee for translation.



From london@calypso-2 Wed Aug 10 08:25:20 1994
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Subject: RE: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: MILLER@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU

I don't know what # you tried for Dr. Yu but I have a # for him at Pacific.
Call me there at 619-574-6909 and we'll see if it's still a good #. Jack Miller


From london@calypso-2 Thu Aug 11 11:46:47 1994
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 70.85]
To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@news.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: RE: tui na teacher
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Christine <christin@maxwell.ee.washington.edu>

> 
> 
> Myself and my wife would like to get some training in Tui Na and maybe some 
> relief to our back problems. Does anybody know how to get in contact with Dr 
> Yu Da-fang in Los Angeles I tried his number below but had no luck or can 
> anybody recommend somebody else in L.A. or Ventura County.

I can recommend a Dr. Zhang.  He teaches at Yo San University in Santa 
Monica.  He has sessions in the morning clinic (I believe) 310/917-2200.  
Perhaps you'd like to have a treatment first.  They have regularly 
scheduled classes which are open to non-matriculated students.  The
the classes are offered during the day. I don't believe they have evening 
classes in this subject.  I think Dr. Zhang is a good practitioner, however, 
English is his 2nd language and sometimes he can be difficult to understand.
Be sure not to confuse him with a Dr. Shao-Mei Zhang (woman) who is the Yo 
San Clinic Director.

	Yo San University of Trad Chinese Med.
	1314 2nd Street
	Santa Monica, CA  90401
	310/917-2202

We live in 
> Oxnard, Ca. but we are willing to travel to Los Angeles for a good teacher. 
> Feel free to respond to me by Email or this list with a little more in depth 
> information about Tui Na.
> Thanks in advance
> David H. Garcia

You're welcome.  Maybe since the #10 Freeway is repaired you can get over to
Santa Monica.  
Christine Charters


From london@calypso-2 Sun Aug 14 11:52:48 1994
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Subject: tui na
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From: "Sandy Vrooman" <sandy@twg.com>

Are there tui na practitoners in the San Francisco Bay Area?

Sandy Vrooman


From london@calypso-2 Wed Aug 17 00:20:33 1994
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed@news.cts.com     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Subject: Pharmaceutical PinYin
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: dmfjft@Arco.COM (Tilley James F (303)293-7533)

 Here in Denver I frequent two Chinese pharmacies which
primarily serve a large Vietnamese population.  We do not
have a Chinese population per se.  My knowledge of the
Chinese and Vietnamese language is almost nill.
 However I am aware of the PRC to use PINYIN as the Western
standard for speaking 'CHINESE'.  I also am aware of the
european WADE-GILES system which preceded PINYIN but still
lingers around.  For example QI is PINYIN and CHI is Wade-
GILES.
 The following is an example but it is typical when I want
to buy a patent medicine or a chinese herb.  Both stores are
run by people who speak Chinese (sure) and Vietnamese (not
sure).  Of course their English is better than my Chinese
but still difficult to be understood.
 If I ask for TIENCHI POWDER RAW I get blank stares.  If I
try by best PINYIN and ask for Sheng Tian QI Fen the same
thing.  If I use the store copy of 'CHINESE HERBAL PATENT
FORMULAS' by Jake Fratkin and point to the chinese
characters for the same then smiles of recognition.
 The theory being if ENGLISH doesn't work then use PINYIN.
I do know enough about Chinese to know that PINYIN isn't
going to account for nasal and accent tones spoken in
Chinese.  But it seems to have no value when it comes to
pharmaceutical terms.
 This is more of an observation than a question.  But if
anybody else wants to shead some light on the subject feel
free.

JIM


From london@calypso-2 Wed Aug 17 00:20:47 1994
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From: dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes)

Can anybody recommend a good practitioner of OM in the Austin area?  I have
apatient looking for someone.  If you don't want to post to the list...just
E-mail me.

Thanks in advance

Donn

*********************************************
Rising Sun
voice/fax: 303-674-4790
E-mail: dhayes@netcom.com
*********************************************




From london@calypso-2 Wed Aug 17 00:25:37 1994
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Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 10:43:41 PST
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Subject: Re: Practitoner recs
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From: zrosenberg@electriciti.com (Zev J. Rosenberg)

Dear Donn,
    The best practitioner I know in Austin who also trained in Taiwan is
Caylor Waddlington.  He is an excellant, sensitive practitioner and great
herbalist.  However, I do not have his phone #.
 Keep in touch

Z'ev Rosenberg




From london@calypso-2 Wed Aug 17 00:25:59 1994
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From: "Menachem Galatz DC" <mgalatz@panix.com>


>Can anybody recommend a good practitioner of OM in the New York City area?

Menachem Galatz DC
mgalatz@panix.com



From london@calypso-2 Fri Aug 26 13:10:19 1994
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From: dhayes@netcom.com (Donn Hayes)

Anyone have a recommendation for a well qualified practitioner in the
Dayton Ohio area?

Thanks in advance

Donn Hayes

*********************************************
Rising Sun
voice/fax: 303-674-4790
E-mail: dhayes@netcom.com
*********************************************




From bkhouse!OrMed-error@news.cts.com Thu Jan 19 04:15 EST 1995
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Resent-Date: Thu Jan 12 09:04:25 1995
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To: Multiple.Recipients.of.List.OrMed     (OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com)
Cc: kanon@soda.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU (Kanon Kubose)
Subject: Re: The nature of Qi
Reply-To: OrMed@bkhouse.cts.com (The OrMed Mailing List)
From: Kanon Kubose <kanon@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
Content-Type: text
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X-Status: 

> mindset. Qi is not energy, since it is not not matter. _Everything_ is
> expressive of Qi, and as I often say, dog manure has Qi. The memory of your
> mother's face has Qi. A foggy day has Qi. Wrinkles on your bedsheets have Qi.
> Silence has Qi. I hope you can see this point.

I think so. Equating Qi with energy is too limiting, since the forms in which
energy can be expressed is limited--motion, light, heat, etc. Rather, I
should think of Qi as something more along the lines of "nature." The nature
of a heart is to beat, for example.

> essentially, The Heart has Xing, but it beats because it has Dao. 

"it beats because it has Dao?" Does this mean a dead heart has no Dao?
I thought everything "has" Dao, in the sense that it is a part of the rest
of the universe.

> Qi is the
> activity of the Heart, and while we can say that Heart Qi is Insufficient, or
> lacking in quality (not 'deficient,' which implies a lack of quantity), it is
> not low on Qi like a car is low on gasoline. 

Hmm.. I read a text that was translated from Chinese and it used words like
"deficient" and presented Qi like it was "substatiated." How will thinking of
Qi this way prevent ETH (BTW, what does "ETH" stand for?) from making sense?

> Shen is not created by Qi, except in the Alchemical Way of talking (the Three
> Treasures). 

So what is wrong with the alchemical way? If Shen is created by Qi in the
alchemical way of talking, but isn't in other ways, how is this paradox
solved?

> Shen is considered the result of the harmonious 'functioning'
> [language betrays its bias yet again] of all the Organ souls.

Hmmm... I think I am beginning to catch a glimpse of what you mean. To
really find out, I suppose I'll have to keep up with my Qi Gong. I am still
at a very primitive level... but perhaps that is obvious by the questions
I am compelled to ask.

> of it. I strongly recommend you study the books of Porkert (especially
> _Essentials of Chinese Diagnostics_). He seems to have some of these
> distinctions in mind, and is consequently _very_ hard to understand on a
> casual read.

How about his "Chinese Medicine?" I bought it at the same time I bought
"The Web That Has No Weaver," but I thought I'd read this latter book first.
Incidently, do you think these would be good places to start?

Kanon



