Subject: Re: Till/noTill

From: gil carandang <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 05:21:58 +0000

hi elaine!
is there a way to find out what are the associations of vegetables of
different families like brassicas and solanaceous?  are they fungal or
bacterial?  and is there a way, naturally by simply observation that you
will find out whether the balance in the soil foodweb?  like when we see the
soil and smell earthy, it is more fungal in association, ya?  see poor
farmers do have the dough for soil tests and things of that nature.  a
working, guideline will be enough.
gil carandang
herbana farms
philippines

>From: Elaine Ingham <[email-masked]>
>Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
><[email-masked]>
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [SANET-MG] Till/noTill
>Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 17:45:18 EDT
>
>Hi Mike -
>
>I guess I always like to explain WHY things work.  If you don't understand
>why, then you can get confused and do things that aren't helpful.
>
>So, let's go back to the start - what is your purpose?  You turn weeds in
>to
>get rid of them.  Wouldn't it be better to not have those weeds in the
>first
>place?  If you keep tilling, tilling, tilling, you will keep having weeds,
>weeds, weeds.
>
>But did I just say to never till again?  No.  Don't leap to conclusions,
>read
>what I write.
>
>You till when you HAVE TO till.  So, if you have weeds right now, you till,
>and please till before the weeds go to seed.  But, now start doing the
>things
>necessary to make certain those weeds never come back.
>
>Those things are:  get a soil chemistry test done (you may have done this
>already.)  Look at the report.  Any nutrients not balanced correctly?  Go
>read Albrecht, Kinsey, and Arden Anderson's books.  Or chat with people who
>know those folks.  You have to balance Ca:Mg.  Balance PO4 and K.  The
>biology can't help you if you don't have the nutrients.
>
>But how do you hold onto those nutrients if you add them to the soil?  They
>just leach out again, if you don't have the right biology.  So, do a soil
>biology test.  What is lacking?  What is out of whack.  I can bet that your
>beneficial fungi are much too low.  That the active fungi are hurting.  The
>protozoa are not present in adequate numbers to cycle nutrients for you.
>You
>likely have root feeding nematodes.
>
>So, you have to fix those things.  Compost or compost tea are the only ways
>to add the things you are lacking.  If you wait for Mother Nature to bring
>those things back, you'll be playing with weeds for a long time.  Once you
>have the organisms back, you have to feed them properly.  Cover crops are
>good for doing this.  But please put in the right cover crop to feed the
>right organisms.
>
>Out of time---  heading to Lismore today, have to go have breakfast on the
>Beach!
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>Elaine Ingham
>President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
>www.soilfoodweb.com
>SFI Oregon, USA
>SFI Australia
>SFI New York
>SFI Europe
>SFI New Zealand
>
>"Hope is not a feeling. It is not the belief that things will turn out
>well,
>but the conviction that what we are doing makes sense, no matter how things
>turn out."   --  Vaclav Havel, former President of the Czech Republic
>

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

---

From: Jeff Lowenfels <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 22:02:42 -0800

Hi Gil,

You asked if there is any why to tell what a plant likes in terms of
bacterial vs. fungally dominated soils.

I am sure Dr. Elaine will give a better answer, but the way I remember it is
to think of where the plant I am trying to grow sits on a line of succession
from short growing season desert to grasses to prairie to deciduous woods to
hardwood forests to old growth conifers.

Annuals and row crops are at the bacterial end...things that take a short
time to grow and produce.

My understanding is that there  are "generally" the same numbers of bacteria
in healthy soils no matter where the soil is taken along the line. It is the
fungal numbers that change and increase as the system matures so that by the
time you get to old growth, you have very high fungal dominance. And, of
course, tilling decreases these numbers by killing the fragile, invisible
fungi in the soil so you are left with a higher ratio of bacteria after you
till.

And, if you can stand two more paragraphs, getting rid of fungus is why we
here in Alaska actually want to till gardens the first few years after they
are carved out of the black spruce forests that are our back yard.....our
soils are so fungal, it is hard to grow lots of annuals unless the soil is
turned..

Breccias, on the other hand, do well in our fungal soils. It is a kid's
hell. Broccoli, kohlrabi, Brussels sprouts.  You may have heard of the giant
100 pound cabbages. Of course, this may be more a factor of the cool
temperatures or their ability to attract bacteria regardless of fungal
numbers in the soil. This family of plants does not form mycorrhizal
relationships either.

You can tell my gardening engines are running, but spring has just now
arrived here. Sorry. And, please correct me, Dr. Elaine!

Cheers,

Jeff L