Subject: Re: compost tea makers

From: Elaine Ingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:15 EST

Hi folks-

There are machines that cost much less, and are more effective at extracting
and growing ALL the organisms you need in tea, than the one that Frank spoke
about.  I won't even mention that company as making tea machines anymore,
because they don't make compost tea machines.  They make bacteria tea
machines; their machines don't do an adequate job of extracting and growing
fungi, protozoa or nematodes.  Given the predilection of that machine to go
anaerobic during the tea brew, it might be safer to just buy an inoculum of
bacteria from a company like EM, or Organica, or Helena, or Agri-Energy,
or... well, the list is quite long.

There is a 5 gal machine from KIS (www.simplici-tea.com) for $99. that
extracts bacteria, fungi, protozoa and nematodes - all the organisms you need
- and the soluble nutrients from the compost quite well.  The data for the
latest improvements are not on their website yet, but the machines are
producing great tea.  It takes just a pound or so of compost to make 5 gal,
which is enough to put on 1 acre (you put the 5 gal of tea into the amount of
water needed to spray out on the acre, make sure the water is chlorine-free).

Alaska Giant (www.alaskagiant.com) makes a 1 gal tea maker for $40, and a 5
gal tea maker for $80.  Again, both very good tea makers, make great teas,
with good fungi.  Both good choices.  They have a starter mix as well.

EPM (100 gal and 500 gal sizes) makes GREAT tea makers, and they have a 22
gal machine coming out soon.  Their website is www.composttea.com   They also
sell the fungi that take out many root-feeding pests, as well as foliar
insects.

Wormgold has just released a tea machine, not on their web site yet, so stay
tuned.  Nice, low-profile, easy to clean, sizes 50 to 200 gal.

Earthworks makes 35 and 85 gal sizes (www.soilfirst.com).  Really great
fungal and bacterial biomass.

James Sottilo makes tea makers to order.  [email-masked]

There are many tea makers on the market, for reasonable prices, that extract
the organisms just fine, and let them grow without worry of the tea becoming
anaerobic.

The foods the machine manufacturers make match the needs of their machines,
or if you want some really great compost and activator, try Hendrikus
Schraven's website, hendrikus.com.  They make some super foods for the
organisms.

And try some of the special bacterial and fungal inocula available - just a
pinch in the tea, and grow the good guys yourself.  Don't put in too much, if
they grow too fast, they use up all the air in the tea, and that's when you
grow not-so-good bacteria, like E. coli and other human pathogens.

It is not that difficult to do a good job.  You need to have care, true, but
don't be scared off.

Or find a tea center near you, and buy the tea from a professional.  Check
the SFI web site for the names of reputable tea centers near you.

Elaine Ingham

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From: Elaine Ingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:19 EST

Hi Mike -

Yes, really good soil would be fine to put in a compost tea maker.  If soil
contains a good food web of all the organisms needed, soil can serve to make
compost tea (hum, that would be soil tea then, right?).

Or use a compost made without manure.  Use nitrogen-fixing leguminous plant
material in the compost instead of manure.

Which is why the USDA Compost Task Force recommendations were so silly.
Since we objected to not being able to use sugar, molasses or soluble carbon
materials because - oh fear! - these materials might result in E. coli growth
(which is silly, high energy carbon materials don't cause E. coli to grow,
the presence of E. coli, and the right conditions, specifically lack of
adequate oxygen - allow E. coli to win in competition for the foods), then
the Compost Task Force leader threatened to make a recommendation that no
compost tea could be used at all.

Luckily, that wasn't the actual recommendation made to the NOSB.  The actual
recommendation was that compost tea could not be used on foodstuffs because
of the fear of E. coli.

But composts not made from manure aren't likely to have E. coli.

Manure-based compost can also be pathogen free, so why limit even
manure-based compost if it can be documented to be pathogen-free?

Some soils could contain E. coli, so, if unsure, test to make sure.

But, the upshot of all this right now is that perhaps the NOSB will ignore
the recommendation from the Compost Task Force.  Maybe they'll use the wisdom
we all hope they have.

They received another recommendation, from OMRI, that basically said, if the
materials going into the product are OMRI approved, then the product is
certified organic.

Compost tea is OMRI approved.   All the starting materials in compost tea
used on an organic farm should certified organic.

This is the recommendation I heard about late last fall - gosh, almost a year
ago!  A year ago, I figured the NOP would not be a problem, because OMRI had
it under control.

Part of the reason for this being the correct ruling is the tradition of
using compost tea since the Roman days.  Cato discusses making a liquid that
sounds very much like compost tea (ok, they used slave's blood as a food
resource, but we can leave out that part).

Might we want to work out the exact conditions that prevent E. coli from
growing in tea?  Yes.  And we'll publish that data when we get the testing
done.

No one wants to be in danger of growing human pathogens.  But we need to be
less insanely afraid.  E. coli doesn't survive the aerobic world, unless
something is very not-normal.

Why did we go down this track of insanity?  Because a few people at the USDA
are nuts about the danger of E. coli.  They seem to feel that anything ever
touched by E. coli may re-grow E. coli.

If that were true, none of us could drink any water that ever passed through
a sewage treatment plant.  Everything you eat probably came in contact with
something that had E. coli once upon a time.

But E. coli doesn't survive in the normal aerobic world.  Human pathogens die
when they get eaten.  They will be out-competed or inhibited in the fully
aerobic world.

Thank goodness that by setting up the right conditions, human pathogens can't
survive.

Make sure you set up those conditions that select against E. coli in your
compost and your compost tea machines.  Just PLEASE be aware of so-called
compost tea machines  that don't make compost tea.

Beware of those machines that don't maintain aerobic conditions.  If the air
bubbles can't get into the basket, the inside of the basket goes anaerobic,
and guess what can grow?  Not sure?  Measure it with a dissolved oxygen
probe.

That's what standards are for.  The Compost Tea Manual has the standards
necessary to assure that human pathogens, most plant pathogens, root-feeding
nematodes
and weeds (in heated compost) are not problems in compost tea, or compost.

Fear is not necessary.  Sane, logical, thoughtful, science-based information
is necessary.

Good science, not studies based on someone wanting to show there can be a
problem, are needed.  All the tea makers need to be tested, not just one that
can't maintain oxygen in the machine and allows E. coli to grow.

If you mess around with the conditions enough, and ignore the basic
parameters of how the product is actually made, you can always demonstrate a
problem.

I can take a coffee maker and use it to make a brown liquid that looks like
coffee, but will kill you.  Should we take coffee makers off the market
because someone can do stupid, inappropriate things with them?

That's what the Compost Task Force decided, based on poorly done studies
where the people involved clearly have no idea how to calibrate an oxygen
probe.

Let's hope the people on the NOSB are bright enough to see through the, ah,
manure.

Elaine Ingham

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From: Elaine Ingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 18:25:15 EST

Hi folks-

Elaine Ingham

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From: Elaine Ingham <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 21:16:19 EST

Hi Mike -

Elaine Ingham