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RE: [compost_tea] chelate question for the chemists out there



Dear Dr. E:

Thanks for the info.  I'm going nuts trying to understand this stuff.

Biology has always been my interest but it's been 20 years since college, 
and I figure you know everything :-) ...

Seeing that it's near 11 p.m., I know for sure that you never sleep...

Paulette


-----Original Message-----
From:	soilfoodweb@aol.com [SMTP:soilfoodweb@aol.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:44 PM
To:	compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Subject:	Re: [compost_tea] chelate question for the chemists out there

Hi Paulette -

Phew!  Do you have time for a course in plant physiology?  I'll will try to 
give you a short course, but please get a plant physiology textbook, or 
even better, call your local college or University plant physiology 
instructor, and get the expanded version of these answers, if you are 
interested. My knowledge is limited when it comes to the insides of plants, 
plasnt strucutres, etc.  But I'm pretty good at cellular metabolism 
questions, but I don't know everything.

> I was thinking about all this in terms of applying a chelated product 
such as chelated iron to a plant.  The chelation process would have occured 
at the manufacturer's lab before I got the product.  Many chelated iron 
products use EDTA but I've also seen lignin as the chelating agent.

Check whether the chelated material you want to apply is approved for use 
by organic growers.  Check with an organic-certification group like the 
Organic Growers of WA, or OMRI, or IFOAM, for example.  The synthetic 
chelated compounds that Thomas was talking about may leave not-particularly 
wonderful residues in the plant.  At least with the organic-approved 
chelated minerals, the plant has enzymes and waste-removal mechanisms to 
deal with the chelating material once the mineral is released from the 
mineral within the plant.

All a chelation step does is neutralize charge, essentially, so the plant 
can move the mineral through the cell membrane and cell wall.
>
> I was under the impression that beneficial microbes were required to 
separate the chelated molecule BEFORE it actually went inside the plant.

I am not aware of this step as a BEFORE step.  In fact, I don't think 
cleavage could happen BEFORE moving across the cell membrane.  Without hte 
chelating agent, the material would not cross the membrane.

Microbes do much of the work of chelating mineral elements.  Bacteria and 
fungi need chelated minerals in order to move them into their cells.  So 
bacteria and fungi do alot of chelation of charged materials.

It's why I always have to sigh and roll my eyes heavenward when scientists 
talk about soil around roots of plants becoming acidified when nitrate is 
taken up.  Only happens in sick plant root systems, otherwise there are all 
these healthy microbes just itching to get those "extra" hydrogen ions.....

> Apparently this is not so.  Apparently, the chelated molecule goes into 
the plant intact.

The microbes chelate minerals before the passage through a membrane can 
happen.  Often the microbes provide the proteins or amino acid molecules to 
do the process of chelation, as well as doing the work to chelate.

> What happens to the chelated molecule AFTER it goes into the plant?

The plant has enzymes that remove the protein, amino acid, or other 
neutralizing elements so the mineral can be put where it is needed in the 
cellular machinery.

> Can the plant utilize the chelated molecule intact?

Probably, but usually the carbon atoms and the mineral atom are needed in 
two different places, so there is no requirement for them to stay together. 

> Are there beneficial microbes inside the plant that separate the chelated 
molecule (ex. into EDTA and iron) so the plant can use it?

The plant has enzymes it makes itself, inside the cells, which do the work 
here.

> Are there other biological processes that go on inside of the plant that 
break apart the chelated molecule so the plant can use it?

Yes.

> What happens to the chelation material (ETDA, lignin, etc.)
> after the plant utilizes the metal molecule?

Lignin has to be broken down through enzymatic cleavage.  But lignin is a 
nasty compound, and the plant usualy just spits it back out.  Synthetic 
chelators probably are just spit out as well.  Amino acids and proteins are 
used in cellular synthesis.

OK?

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


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