[compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
SS,
I was speaking of EDTA, as a chelator, in the context that it was a good ch=
elator bacause it held its mineral captive. From the context of growing pl=
ants, EDTA may not a great choice.
Good or bad, up or down, it is all about context.
Mike Flynn
Green Quest LLC
BioSpecific LLC
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_...> wrote:
>
> Tad;
>
> If you accept that humic is too large a molecule to penetrate the stomata=
l opening, and accepting that chelation means the molecule ties itself tigh=
tly to the ion, then both of them together will also not be able to enter t=
he stomata.
>
> EDTA is an even worse chelator. It ties itself so tightly to copper that,=
although it enters the plant through the stomatal opening, it never lets t=
he copper go, and in fact probably ties up any copper in the plant that is=
available. It also seeps from plant roots and ties up copper there. You ha=
ve in fact created an acute copper shortage in the plant even though, if yo=
u assay the plant biomass, you find that there is sufficient copper there. =
Also a soils audit will show copper present but the plant may still visuall=
y display signs of copper shortage. (In a way similar to nitrogen shortage =
when there is a Sulphur shortage. A plant cannot take up nitrogen when ther=
e is a sulphur shortage.)
>
> I’m not saying don’t use EDTA. I’m just saying be=
ware of the danger and rather use less than more. It’s still and ef=
fective chelator for products that have difficulty entering the plant leaf.
>
> There are enough organic chemistry Ph.D.’s on this site, they can=
take this further if you are still unconvinced.
>
> SS
>
>
>
> From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] On=
Behalf Of Tad Hussey
> Sent: 20 March 2011 02:45
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
>
>
>
>
>
> How do you know you're losing much diversity by adding a food source? I'd=
like to see some more information on that. Any percentages relative to br=
ewing length or foodstock added? Any links on humic acid being a poor chela=
tor would be appreciated as well. I am aware that the humic acid molecule i=
s too large to penetrate the cellular walls of the plant, however fulvic ac=
id is a component of most commercial humic acid products that I'm aware of.=
>
>
>
> Tad
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2011, at 11:44 PM, "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_...> wrote:
>
>
>
> You lose diversity because you are feeding only some of the organisms. Th=
eir numbers will then rise, so they will form a larger % of the microbial c=
ommunity. Are these microbes better suited to the job at hand when applied =
to the soil or plant? I’m not saying don’t add foods, Iâ=
€™m just saying do it in moderation, apply a range of foods in small me=
asure, and most important of all have a large and diverse range of feedstoc=
k when making your compost. Compost is the driver of the whole process. Be =
sure to keep the temperature in range, be sure the moisture is in range, be=
sure the C:N ratio is in range. Use herbs and foods with low N as well as =
other foods with higher N. Woody plants tend to help control temperature an=
d favour fungi. Fungi are not well multiplied in a brewer. Compost should b=
e allowed to mature. Simple rules, judgement required.
>
> LCE is no different from ACT. A jet of water is better at removing microb=
es from compost than placing compost in a bag and not even having a bubbler=
in the bag.
>
> With regard to humic acid. Humic acid is a poor chelator. Its molecule si=
ze is much too large to gain ready access to plants through their leaves (s=
tomata). Fulvic is the chelator for leaf application. Humic is a fungal foo=
d. It has a high CEC. Its right place is in the soil.
>
> SS
>
> (disclaimer: Well, that’s what I think anyway)
>
>
>
> From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] On=
Behalf Of Tad Hussey
> Sent: 18 March 2011 21:37
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike,
> Do you have any data to support this methodology? I'm not sure I see an =
advantage to this method. Based on SS's comment, then wouldn't those LCE o=
rganisms just get eaten by the active ACT organisms. As far as SS's post, =
I do agree that you will lose diversity over time (I've seen it many time w=
hen I brew too long), however, I haven't seen any data to suggest that you'=
re losing a large amount of your starting diversity in your compost by mak=
ing an aerated compost tea.
>
> I'm not saying that what either of you stated is wrong, just that I haven=
't seen any evidence to support it, but do find it to be curious. I think =
there's a lot we still need to find out, and wish there were more people ou=
t there doing research.
>
> I have to concur with Tim that I've found humic acid to be ineffective or=
even detrimental in large concentrations when used to make ACT. That bein=
g said, I think it has a bunch of other plant and soil benefits (primarily =
chelation), but that it's properties as a microbial food source may be over=
stated.
>
>
>
> ~Tad
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: mikethewormguy <mikethewormguy_at_...>
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, March 18, 2011 4:13:29 AM
> Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
>
>
>
>
>
> a possible option to consider is to take the liquid compost extract LCE),=
subtract a portion volume out and make that volume into ACT. Then at the t=
ime of application, you combine the LCE and ACT portions together to get bo=
th diversity and activity.
>
> I have used this 'combo' approach more for foliar applications.
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Steyn" <ssteyn_at_> wrote:
> >
> > But you would have more diversity, because foods you add tend to favour=
certain microbes over others â€" and over time the microbial =
balance shifts due to depredation of some species and explosive growth of o=
thers given the nutrient rich environment.
> >
> > SS
> >
> >
> >
> > From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com] =
On Behalf Of Tad Hussey
> > Sent: 17 March 2011 23:20
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Keep in mind as well though, that you won't have the same microbial act=
ivity or concentrations of microbes that you get from an aerated compost te=
a, because you're not adding a food source to the brewer at the beginning o=
f the cycle.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: mikethewormguy <mikethewormguy_at_>
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 1:59:06 PM
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Making compost tea extract
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > if you have a choice than always make the liquid extract fresh.
> >
> > Here is a simple&affordable DIY LCE approach I have used for my home la=
wn:
> >
> > 1. Extract 1 gallon of high quality vermicompost in 5 gallons of water =
for a 24 hour period. I stir, using a long handled spoon, vigorously each h=
our for the first 4 hours and again each hour 4 hours prior to harvesting t=
he liquid.
> > 2. Filter out the solids using a 5 gallon paint strainer bag.
> > 3. Dilute the extract liquid concentrate to 100 gallons with water usin=
g 2-55 gallon rain barrels with spigots.
> > 4. Add 1 quart of 12% Humic Acid to each rain barrel. Mix well.
> > 5. Apply the diluted liquid to 1 acre of turf using a hose and a Honda =
1hp pump.
> > 6. Repeat monthly during growing season.
> >
> > So with this procedure I use around 1 cubic foot of vermicompost and 4 =
gallons of 12% humic acid per season.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the LCE is a soil microbial inoculant where less used=
more often is better than alot used less often.
> >
> > So use less compost, apply liquid monthly, and watch your soil improve.=
> >
> > my 2 cents.....
> >
> > Mike Flynn
> > Green Quest LLC
> > BioSpecific LLC
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.co=
m> , phishphan12_at_ wrote:
> > >
> > > Extraction is basically taking the microbes off of the compost withou=
t adding any additional foods to the brew. This is what gives LCE its shelf=
life. You do use roughly 10x the amount of compost used in tea brewing, so=
it does have its disadvantages too. Buying an extractors isn't cheap eithe=
r, but I think in the archives someone uses an old washing machine.
> > >
> > > Also, a lot of the bottled "teas" on the market are dormant spores or=
some other brew and other not really "teas". Do some homework.
> > >
> > > Matt
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "waynerz123" <wayner123_at_>
> > > To: "compost tea" <compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea%40=
yahoogroups.com> >
> > > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:59:26 PM
> > > Subject: [compost_tea] Making compost tea extract
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If I understand it correctly, and I am probably way off, the good mic=
robes in compost tea lessen the longer it sits. But there are a number of c=
ompanies that sell compost tea extracts. So how does one take homemade comp=
ost tea and make it dormant or give it a shelf life?
> > >
> > > The benefit of this would be to make one large batch and then aerate =
it when needed/wanted.
> > >
> >
>
Received on Sun Mar 20 2011 - 13:19:18 EDT
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