[compost_tea] Re: Anaerobic Activity

From: Tad <tadhussey_at_yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 16:28:27 -0000

Mike,

You've completely changed the subject of our conversation and avoided my
original question altogether. When replying to my posts, please leave
my reply and do not change the subject heading to something else that's
out of context. I never made any comments regarding or advocating for
the use of ACT on leafy greens or in relation to the NOP
recommendations.

I've re-attached my post to this thread and ask that you please re-read
what I was talking about. Here's what I have issue with. People come
into this forum and make blanket statements and then hint at
testing/research/data to support it. Your statement below suggests that
compost extract is somehow safer than ACT. The first time I asked you,
you changed the subject heading to "food safety and ACT" and replied:

food safety and aact
Tad,

So you can have all of the data in the world but at the end of the day,
in the
commercial ag world, it is a risk-based becomes a business decision in
regards
to applying AACT or extract liquid or for that matter compost and
vermicompost
or anything to a crop.

It also depends upon how much liability insurance you have. I can only
afford to
buy only so many acres of leafy greens if I screw up.

For me, it is less risky to apply extracts and other additives.

Mike,

You were the one who said you had "testing" not me. You again hint at
the idea that extracts are "less risky" than ACT. I don't believe this
to be the case (and keep in mind I'm making the assumption of equal
testing and quality control between extract and ACT).

If you don't have any testing or data to support you statements, than
please just state that it's your opinion or hypothesis. You're free to
speculate as well, but please don't speak from a position of authority
unless you have some education or knowledge or testing to back it up.
If that was all it took to be an expert, I'd be down in CA somewhere
right now, interning for Ted Petersen.

~Tad

PS: Your google article on molasses seems to support my position in
regards to compost teas and pathogen-free parent material.


--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Tad Hussey <tadhussey_at_...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Thanks for the response. I've cut and pasted the text that contains
my
> pertinent question, and then responded according below:
>
> >" I agree that some of the same issues apply to extract and AACT.
Both AACT and
>
> > extract have a degree of risk tied to them but not to the same
degree.
> >
> > Liquid extracts are far less dynamic and more dormant spore
environments. In
> > many ways,the extract(s) more reflects the compost or vermicompost
that it was
>
> > made from. The testing I have done supports this. Thus if the
vermicompost
> > parent materials is pathogen negative than there is a very good
probability
> >that
> >
> > the water extract will also be pathogen negative."
>
> This is the text that I would love to see some data to support. I've
bolded the
> section I'm referring to, but didn't want to take it out of context.
>
>
> I've actually done e.coli testing in ACT using the our 5 gallon
brewing system,
> back in 2002 in conjunction with Dr. Ingham, where e.coli was
purposely
> introduced. At the end of the brewing cycle it was virtually
undetectable. I
> can dig up the SFI reports if you would like.
>
> If the parent material contains no pathogens, and you have a
consistent brewer
> and brewing process, then how does compost extract have any advantage
over ACT?
> Your ACT will not contain any pathogens either. Based on the fact
that these
> pathogens are facultative anaerobes, I speculate that ACT could
actually have an
> advantage, in that there is an aerobic brewing process, where aerobic
microbes
> could out-compete faculative anaerobes (in this case the e.coli) and
render the
> tea safer than an extract.
>
> So I'm curious if you have any data that shows where extract and ACT
were made
> from the same parent material, proper methodology was followed, and
the extract
> came back clean and the ACT full of pathogens.
>
> Personally I agree that the dangers are overstated in any regard, but
I
> understand why some of these food safety guidelines are in place.
>
> ~Tad
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: mikethewormguy mikethewormguy_at_...
> To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 3:11:31 PM
> Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Anaerobic Activity
>
>
>
>
> Tad,
>
> The context for the statement is food safety and in regard to negative
pathogens
> ONLY. In short, the data showed negative pathogens in parent material
and
> negative pathogens in extracted parent material liquid. It is pretty
straight
> forward from a food safety perspective. The data is specific to my
situation
> thus posting it does not provide others with actionable information
since you
> are not using my parent material.
>
> If you are interested in learning more, you can create your own data
set by
> testing your parent material and AACT liquid for :
>
> Ecoli
> Salmonella
> Shingella
> Fecal coliforms
> Listeria
>
> which are some of the target microbial 'outlaws' in Food Safety Land.
>
> Here is what you can do.... First, you can validate that you do not
have
> pathogens in both your parent material and AACT liquid. Second, you
can verify
> the same by testing multiple batches to get a big enough dataset to
analyze
> where n=30.
>
> Also one additional point to consider is that unless you have
validated your
> equipment cleaning procedures than your equipment could be a source
for
> pathogenic biofilm, from say, prior bird or mouse poop. This has
nothing to do
> with AACT and everything to do with equipment design (i.e. 90 degree
angles) and
> sanitation and storage location.
>
>
> All of this is academic and kinda of boring if you are primary using
the AACT on
> your garden and wash your vegeees before eating.
>
> If you work in commercial ag than all this is all part of being in
Food Safety
> Land......
>
> At the recent Vermiculture conference I attended there was some great
side
> discussion on food safety and composted dairy manure based
vermicompost.
>
>
> Mike Flynn
> Green Quest LLC
> BioSpecific LLC
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Tad Hussey tadhussey_at_ wrote:
> >
> > Mike,
> >
> > Would you be so kind as to post this data, and expand on what you
mean by this
>
> > statement?
> > "In many ways, the extract(s) more reflects the compost or
vermicompost that
> >it
> >
> > was made from. The testing I have done supports this."
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Tad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mikethewormguy mikethewormguy_at_
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Mon, May 30, 2011 1:03:30 PM
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Anaerobic Activity
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Tim,
> >
> > I agree that some of the same issues apply to extract and AACT. Both
AACT and
> > extract have a degree of risk tied to them but not to the same
degree.
> >
> > Liquid extracts are far less dynamic and more dormant spore
environments. In
> > many ways, the extract(s) more reflects the compost or vermicompost
that it was
> >
> > made from. The testing I have done supports this. Thus if the
vermicompost
> > parent materials is pathogen negative than there is a very good
probability
> >that
> >
> > the water extract will also be pathogen negative.
> >
> >
> > At the end of the day, it becomes a risk based business decision as
to whether
>
> > to use AACT on a commercial food crop during its growout phase. It
is the
> >market
> >
> > that the grower needs to convince.
> >
> > BTW.... I do not have any vermicompost extracts applied during the
crop growout
> >
> > cycle. It is not worth the risk for me. There are other tools
available to me
>
> > for use during growout.
> >
> > There is no right or wrong to the use of AACT on food crops. I had
one grower
> > tell me that his customers do not keep him from using AACT during
the growout
> > but they just won't buy the product. So what would you do ?
> >
> > There are many fine uses for AACT where food safety is not the
primary issue.
> >
> > 3 cents...
> >
> > Mike Flynn
> > Green Quest LLC
> > BioSpecific LLC
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike, I'm sure you are aware that the exact same applies to liquid
compost
> > >extract.
> > >
> >
>


Received on Tue May 31 2011 - 12:30:35 EDT

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