[compost_tea] Re: When to add amendments to the soil
I had already been to Logan Lab's site. I can see they lean very heavily on=
pH manipulation of soils which (to me) is a large indicator they are not d=
ealing with microbial balance of pH (bacterial to fungal) and therefore per=
haps not even aware of sequestered nutrients(??)
I will follow up on it.
Tim
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, EAReinheimer <erica_r_at_...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> I am not adverse to being mistaken. That is how one learns.
>
> Try searching on Logan Labs. It's Melich 3. Or, if you can phrase the
> question, I will contact them and we will see what they say.
>
> $20 is definitely in the ball-park. A&L Western charges about $35, with=
> recommendations. If you want the recommendations from Logan, you pay
> more. I hired Michael Astera to interpret the results for me. When I
> asked him if the results were what is available to plants, or if it
> included the reserves in the soil, he said that the pH2 Melich 3
> extraction showed not all the nutrients in the soil, but all that are
> ever likely to become available.
>
> Erica
>
> On 6/15/2011 7:11 AM, Tim Wilson wrote:
> >
> > I can pretty much guarantee that you are mistaken. I have the
> > equipment for the Melich II extraction and it tells me zero except for=
> > what is in solution. Do you really think that a process which costs
> > researchers moocho $ [a full spectrum of soil nutrients]is going cost
> > 20 bucks?
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>, EAReinheimer <erica_r_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Tim,
> > >
> > > There are a number of soil tests protocols available. I suggest Logan
> > > Labs because they perform a Melich 3 test, which is a ph 2 extraction=
.
> > > This results in a reading of all the nutrients likely to ever become
> > > available. At $20, I think it is affordable.
> > >
> > > I hope my next soil test shows I will not have to add more rock powde=
rs
> > > next year. But, I will await the test results.
> > >
> > > I agree that after initial mineral balancing, biological activation
> > > makes alot of sense. I'm here to learn more about this.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Erica
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 6/14/2011 10:59 AM, Tim Wilson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Erica,
> > > >
> > > > I have nothing against getting typical soil tests and there is some
> > > > merit to testing your soil, however most lab tests only reveal thos=
e
> > > > nutrients which are available (or in ionic form) but do not reveal
> > > > organic nutrients which are sequestered in organic matter/compost.
> > > > Testing your level of organic matter may be of greatest value.
> > > >
> > > > As Stephen has mentioned there is value in adding minerals (in the
> > > > form of rock/clay powders) to soil and compost but these are releas=
ed
> > > > slowly by microbial and root acidifiers over a a period of time,
> > which
> > > > is (IMO) dictated by the needs of the plant in a biologically
> > balanced
> > > > soil.
> > > >
> > > > Besides the rock/clay powders which are available at pennies per
> > cubic
> > > > foot of use (extrapolated over the years they last), well made
> > > > (vermi)compost is indeed in my opinion all you really need to grow =
a
> > > > successful natural vegetable garden. This can be further supplement=
ed
> > > > with applications of fish hydrolysates and ACT & EM fermentations t=
o
> > > > boost the microbial population if the grower wishes (especially in
> > > > chemical conversion to organic) but I see no need to spend large su=
ms
> > > > on prepared 'organic' fertilizers. If fertilizers are truly 'organi=
c'
> > > > there should be extremely minimal danger of them leaching from
> > > > over-watering. If you look at the NPK rating of compost and certain
> > > > other organic amendments compared to chemical fertilizers you'll se=
e
> > > > the numbers are much lower for the organics. This is because the
> > > > nutrients are sequestered and are just not testable with typical
> > > > procedures (& anti-leachable [sic]).
> > > >
> > > > Natural or organic growing should be cheap, especially considered
> > over
> > > > the years as your soil becomes more alive. There is really no need =
to
> > > > sock the prepared fertilizers to your garden year after year.
> > > >
> > > > This is really the crux of microbial based horticulture. There is n=
o
> > > > affordable nutrient test that will show what is organically availab=
le
> > > > in your soil. Rather, the very affordable microscopic examination
> > will
> > > > reveal if there are the microbial players needed in your soli to
> > > > release nutrients. Again, this depends on some organic matter in th=
e
> > > > soil to feed the microbes. The players you wish to see are
> > > > bacteria/archaea and the predators protozoa (flagellates & naked
> > > > amoebae) and/or bacterial feeding nematodes and a variety of fungal
> > > > hyphae including mychorhizal species as well as fungi imperfecti
> > (that
> > > > which predominantly grows in (vermi)compost).
> > > >
> > > > As Elaine and Jeff have so eloquently stated on numerous
> > occasions, if
> > > > one took a typical laboratory nutrient test from the floor of an ol=
d
> > > > growth forest, it would show pretty much diddly-squat, however the
> > > > growth which occurs over a single season out weighs by far many man=
y
> > > > corn, soy or wheat fields. Why?
> > > >
> > > > After initial applications of some rock/clay powders, we produced a=
ll
> > > > of our own amendments/(vermi)compost on farm for commercial sales o=
f
> > > > flowers and herbs and for our own food consumption.
> > > >
> > > > Salutations,
> > > > Tim
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>, EAReinheimer <erica_r_at_> wro=
te:
> > > > >
> > > > > The first question is what nutrients does your soil require?
> > > > > Although lab tests are not always accurate, they are the best we=
> > have.
> > > > > I suggest Logan Labs.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then, you need to figure out what to do with the results. I
> > suggest M.
> > > > > Astera's book, The Ideal Soil.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can add compost all you want, but if your compost lacks the
> > > > elements
> > > > > needed to balance your soil, you'll never get the nutrients you
> > want.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then, add the amendments you need. The easiest way is usually
> > the best
> > > > > - till in organic fertilizers before planting. Be careful of
> > > > > overwatering - you'll likely leach the amendments you have added.
> > > > >
> > > > > You really need to be careful when adding organic fertilizers -
> > more is
> > > > > not better. You need to figure out exactly what you need, then
> > add the
> > > > > exact amounts calculated, then re-test next year. I love using
> > foliage
> > > > > kelp for micronutrients.
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO the best bet on biologically activating your soil is after t=
he
> > > > > minerals are already in place.
> > > > >
> > > > > My organic fertilizer bill runs about $400 per year for a 3000 sq=
ft
> > > > > vegetable garden. I am glad to pay it. It's a bargain. If you wan=
t
> > > > > the best nutrition from your vegetables, you need to be sure the
> > > > soil is
> > > > > the best it can be. Good food is healing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Erica
> > > > >
> > > > > On 6/4/2011 8:24 AM, Stephen Steyn wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ian;
> > > > > >
> > > > > > P and K are not micro nutrients. Plants (and animals) require
> > these
> > > > > > nutrient elements in larger quantities. As these elements are
> > already
> > > > > > in your soils (in all likelihood), your biological additions
> > should
> > > > > > make these more accessible to your plants over a period of time=
.
> > > > > > I.e.: Once your soils are biologically more active. Chicken
> > manure is
> > > > > > a source you could consider, but if you're a composter, then yo=
u
> > > > > > should be composting it, or composting it and using it in your=
> > worm
> > > > > > bins. The other products can be added to compost too but many
> > of them
> > > > > > can for ease of work be added straight to the field. For
> > example soft
> > > > > > rock phosphate, although more soluble that rock phosphate, is
> > still
> > > > > > not very soluble. So you would need a large quantity and
> > adding it to
> > > > > > your compost would make your turner work so much harder for lit=
tle
> > > > > > added benefit. Feather meal, bone meal, blood meal, fish waste
> > > > > > products are good sources of phosphates but are too expensive f=
or
> > > > > > broad scale farming unless you're organic. Cotton seed and soya
> > > > > > oilcakes are way too expensive, and are best fed to your livest=
ock
> > > > > > (Assuming you have) rather than tossed on the soil or compost
> > heap --
> > > > > > unless you are making compost to be used as ACT where it may ha=
ve
> > > > a place.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Lime is a slow working amendment and is dependent on microbial=
> > action
> > > > > > as well as acidic conditions for release. Gypsum is a better
> > calcium
> > > > > > source given its solubility, but has no effect on pH if your so=
ils
> > > > > > require that correction. It's usually used in soils that have
> > higher
> > > > > > pH. The reason it has no effect on pH is because it contains
> > lots of
> > > > > > Sulphur. So if your soils are low in S and Ca, then it's a good
> > > > > > choice. Also if you have a high Na problem, it will help to
> > > > correct that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phosphates at planting to bind sandy soil is a new one on me.
> > Maybe
> > > > > > you mean Magnesium. Magnesium should only be added to soils if =
you
> > > > > > need them as they tighten your soils and make working them more
> > > > difficult.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Potassium is good during the season if your plant assay shows y=
our
> > > > > > plants to be deficient. Then a foliar application is very
> > effective.
> > > > > > Especially if you have high Na as the Na and K (Potassium) ions
> > > > are of
> > > > > > similar size (adjacent on the periodic table) and plants tend
> > to take
> > > > > > up Na instead of K even in high testing K soils if Na is high.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As you can see, the subject is rather more complex than
> > imagined at
> > > > > > first blush. Giving blanket recommendations based on the vague
> > > > > > information you have supplied would more than likely cause more
> > > > > > confusion than anything else. Your best bet is to use the
> > services of
> > > > > > an agronomist or plant scientist to apply required amendments a=
nd
> > > > then
> > > > > > to discuss your biological ideas with them. There must be lots =
in
> > > > Zim,
> > > > > > or in SA.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > *From:*compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:%2Acompost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:%2Acompost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > [mailto:compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of *RTS Friction=
-
> > > > > > Carruthers
> > > > > > *Sent:* 02 June 2011 13:49
> > > > > > *To:* ECO Compost tea
> > > > > > *Subject:* [compost_tea] When to add ammendments to the soil
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi all this is slightly off group topic but in the range of
> > what we
> > > > > > generally try to emulate, there are so many well educated folk =
on
> > > > this
> > > > > > group so am taking the opportunity to glean some of your
> > experiences.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As most of us know, similarly to compost, vermicast is lacking =
in
> > > > > > phosphates & potassium (important additions required for optimu=
m
> > > > plant
> > > > > > growth). For gardening when is the best time to add these trace
> > > > > > elements. I'm referring to amendments such as blood & bone
> > meal, dry
> > > > > > fish, rock phosphate, ash, chicken manure, feather meal, cotton
> > > > seed &
> > > > > > Soya cake etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Include steadily in the worm feed from the start
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) Mix into the VC prior to use/application
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) Mix in directly to the soil before VC application (how long=
> > before
> > > > > > planting)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 4) Or apply weekly in the watering/top dressing
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At present I lime directly two weeks before planting, am led to
> > > > > > believe lime additions directly to Compost can lead to Ammonia =
(N)
> > > > > > losses. Presume this would have the same effect in VC, unless o=
f
> > > > > > course the pH is low and adjustments need to be made. I add
> > > > phosphates
> > > > > > at planting to bind my sandy soil and reduce N losses.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I add potassium half way through the growing period to boost
> > > > flowering
> > > > > > & fruiting. Am I on the right track?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The conclusive answers to these questions I've failed to find
> > on the
> > > > > > net, look forward to any advice on this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Received on Thu Jun 16 2011 - 13:45:18 EDT
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