Hey Evan
google "plant growth promoting rhizobacteria" you will find 30,000+ peer re=
viewed papers on it. In most cases it is a certain genus of microbe with a =
certain plant. There is more research than you could consume in a lifetime
William R. (Bill) Skerrett
ICT Organics
410-707-2794
bill_at_ictorganics.com
-----Original Message-----
From: "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:33am
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?
"Just evaluating what you see under the scope in regards to what you usuall=
y see
does not address how well that microbial balance and population works in th=
e
soil in regards to growing healthy nutrient dense plants"
This is indeed part of what the researchers I mentioned are doing and since=
the 80s and 90s. They are in Europe.
The paper on humus is a different topic.
Tim
--- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, =
"evanfolds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> Quite an intense review of humus, Tim. I skimmed it and read some of it, =
but not all of it yet.
>
> There are certainly those studying the technicalities of these natural su=
bstances with great fervor and accomplishment, no doubt. What I was referri=
ng too is the lack of emphasis on studying microbial balance and population=
s towards the growth of plants. After all, the impulse from studying the li=
fe of the soil is in the context of what comes out of it. At least that is =
my impulse.
>
> It seems to me that if we started to connect what see under the scope wit=
h how it helps plants grow that we could go a long way in establishing a ba=
seline of what soil "should" be. This would lend more credence to the recom=
mendatiosn given by labs.
>
> Look at it from a mineral approach. You go the Extension Service and they=
advise you on how much ime to use to correct your pH on a piece of paper. =
Lime is comprised of Ca and Mg. What if you have a K deficiency? It's extre=
meely short sighted and ignores the profound research done by Albrecht, et =
al in the 40's. We know the sweet spot in soil with miunerals, but not micr=
obes.
>
> Just evaluating what you see under the scope in regards to what you usual=
ly see does not address how well that microbial balance and population work=
s in the soil in regards to growing healthy nutrient dense plants. I know t=
here are some at NC State that are beginning to address microbial balance i=
n soil from this perspective, but they are 50 years behind the mineral appr=
oach.
>
> I think this is what Jason was referencing in his "good luck getting fund=
ing" blurb.
>
> By the way, Tim, great symopsis of your visual under the scope. I'm very =
much looking forward to your DVD..
>
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com
>
>
>
>
> --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com=
, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Evan,
> >
> > There are quite a few scientists researching how nutrients are cycled i=
n the rhyzosphere via predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa. Some of th=
ese are Marianne Clareholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Vigdis Tors=
vik. Not only are many scientists studying this area but are also using DNA=
combined with direct microscopy to attempt to determine bacterial/archaeal=
and fungal specialties of which you speak. I have quite a number of papers=
I can send you but some are referenced on my webpage. [Did you read the pa=
per on humus I posted for you?]
> >
> > The thing about compost tea is that it is so simple to ascertain when y=
ou have the basic microbial population you are seeking for supporting the m=
icrobial nutrient loop. The microbial nutrient loop refers fairly specifica=
lly to nutrients released by protozoa (mainly flagellates and naked amoebae=
) directly following consumption of bacteria/archaea. [this is not to sligh=
t the presence of supportive fungi] There are some who have a vested intere=
st in complicating this but it is not complicated. It is similar to me choo=
sing whether to pay a lawyer $30K to file a patent for me or do the fairly =
simple work myself at a fraction of the cost. Lawyer's don't want lay peopl=
e to learn their language just like many laboratories don't wish people to =
learn they can count their own microbes.
> >
> > When I brew a compost tea it may have 5,000 to 10,000 bacteria/archaea =
and 5 flagellates per field and a hyphae complex every 10 fields at 18 hour=
s or it may take 36 hours. With a microscope it is not a guessing game. Bes=
ides being able to evaluate this and observe this basic diversity, I am als=
o able to see that I have some rigid flagellates which are round, some whic=
h are long and some which are bumpy and that I have two very different look=
ing plastic flagellates. From this observation I can ascertain that I have =
5 species/genera of flagellates. I might also observe that I have some tiny=
smooth testate amoebae and some large rough shelled ones as well as some s=
mall directional spreading naked amoebae and some larger finger type pseudo=
pod naked amoebae, indicating 4 species/genera of amoebae. I may also obser=
ve 2 or more species/genera of ciliates. These are really easy to tell diff=
erent types. Fungal hyphae is trickier but one can learn to identify specie=
s by spore appearance but as mentioned earlier, if I see really different s=
eptal wall frequency, different colors and membranes, it usually follows th=
at there are different species/genera of fungi present. I don't usually exp=
ect to see many nematodes in compost tea but in a compost or soil sample, I=
can tell whether they are good nematodes which consume bacteria/archaea an=
d cycle nutrients by observing their mouth action OR not so good root and f=
ungal suckers. I can also tell a male from a female with a microscope. Roti=
fers, unlike nematodes thrive in a compost tea but they are kinda rare, exc=
ept in some vermicompost. [unfortunately some information out there has con=
fused them with insect larvae] They are also great nutrient cyclers, as the=
y consume bacteria/archaea. They are exciting to watch and there are differ=
ent species/genera which can be identified visually. = Diversity
> > [NOTE: I use species/genera because I'm not sure which term is correct =
to use]
> >
> > Of course there is a whole other level of diversity involved with micro=
bial species and there are things about compost tea, compost extract and co=
mpost which we do not understand yet. This is one reason I strive for the h=
ighest diversity in a brew so that I might apply the shotgun approach and a=
llow the soil and plants to select the necessary players needed at the time=
of application.
> >
> > If I know that my soil or plant is suffering from a certain pathogen an=
d know the type of microbe which might contribute to controlling this then =
I might be better off to purchase one of the those products which contain i=
t. Or if I wish to increase a specific type of free living nitrogen fixers =
or endomycorrhizal species then likewise I can apply spores of those specie=
s to the soil. Some of these bacterial types are likely contained in compos=
t tea but this is a totally different game than the home grower or farmer u=
sing ACT for the shotgun approach.
> >
> > That's my take anyway.
> >
> > Salutations,
> > Tim
> >
> > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.c=
om, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Tad, I agree with you. IN NO WAY am I trying to undermine the importa=
nce and relevance of working with a microscope. It is vital. I'm simply try=
ing to point out exactly what you stated: "...frankly I don't know what all=
the different species and sub-species do in the rhizosphere anyway."
> > >
> > > That's it. We don't know. It is my opinion that we need to couple wha=
t we are seeing under a scope directly with how it works with growing plant=
s. Nobody to my knowledge is doing this.
> > >
> > > I also think we need to entertain a seperate metric of "microbial str=
ength" into our analysis here. Without accounting for the reletaive strengt=
h of the same microbe from different sources, we are acting as if they are =
all the same. This may make testing easier, but it does no justice to the e=
nd result we all seek --> healthy biologically active soil that grows nutri=
ent dense plants without pest & disease.
> > >
> > > I too am appreciateive of being part of this group...peace & light
> > >
> > > evan
> > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogroups=
.com, "Tad" <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Evan and Tim,
> > > >
> > > > This discussion jumps around quite a bit, but I wanted to chime in =
on a few things.
> > > >
> > > > First of all, I think the importance of testing is largely understa=
ted and many commercial manufacturers of brewers don't do proper testing be=
fore selling their brewers or making claims as to efficacy. One SFI test is=
not sufficient in my opinion, but is a good starting point. Successive mic=
roscope work is better, even if it is qualitative in nature.
> > > >
> > > > Ethan, you talk about "true diversity" as something we cannot see o=
r understand without DNA testing. I have to agree with Tim here in that dir=
ect microscopy is really the most effective methodology we have for evaluat=
ing microbial teas and extracts at this time. DNA testing would really not =
give me much more information and is not realistic, as each brew would be d=
ifferent, and frankly I don't know what all the different species and sub-s=
pecies do in the rhizosphere anyway.
> > > >
> > > > However, I can tell the difference better a ciliate and a flagellat=
e. I can see that they're both present in my tea and in good ratios. I can =
see different morphology in the bacteria and whether it's motile or forming=
large areas on the slide of biomass. This is the diversity I'm talking abo=
ut. It gives me data that I can then use to determine the quality of my pro=
duct.
> > > >
> > > > Every brew I've ever taken for longer than a few days lacks this di=
versity. DNA testing is not going to show anything surprising in this regar=
d. If I'm unable to find fungal hyphae through direct microscopy, it's not =
going to magically show up through other means of testing.
> > > >
> > > > Our solution to this issue was to have hydro shops brew 1-2 times a=
week, and customers just knew that if they wanted ACT, they would have to =
come in on a Weds or a Saturday and those would be the days it's available =
for purchase.
> > > >
> > > > Some manufacturers claim you can refrigerate their tea or store it =
for a period of time. I find this irresponsible and have yet to see anyone =
provide data to show otherwise. And personally, I don't see how they ever c=
ould. With a properly made ACT, you've created an unsustainable amount of a=
erobic microbes at it's peak (avg 24-36 hours). I don't believe there is a =
way to maintain the diversity and concentrations of organisms over time.
> > > >
> > > > As Tim stated, it would be relatively easy to test Evan's theory ab=
out plant available nutrients being more accessible in longer brews by just=
testing for nutrients say at 24 hours and again a week later from the same=
liquid, without any additions.
> > > >
> > > > I guess my point is that let's not throw out direct microscopy as t=
he standard to evaluating teas, just because it doesn't answer every questi=
on we might have. Spend enough time behind a microscope and I think you'll =
find that you can learn quite a bit about how your teas change over time. F=
or instance, I can make a bacterial dominated tea, fungal dominated tea, or=
flagellate dominated tea all from the same material, simply by adjusting t=
he length of the brewing cycle.
> > > >
> > > > In order for out industry to continue to grow and gain legitimacy, =
I think it's important that we move away from testimonials, quasi-science, =
and unsubstantiated claims, and towards direct microscopy and methodology t=
hat can be replicated in a variety of environments and with different brewe=
rs.
> > > >
> > > > I think these discussions are beneficial as well. There's a lot of =
different knowledge and experience floating around in here and I'm glad to =
be a part of the group!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Tad
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogrou=
ps.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply try=
ing to speak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustr=
ate actual diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local la=
b who sepcializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear r=
iver in NC and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track co=
ntamination sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engi=
neer where it comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this wit=
hout DNA testing. That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable informa=
tion out what you are doing. That is not my point.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual o=
bservation we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the NPK an=
d crippled agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from an a=
shing experiment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellectu=
al and animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture =
will be lost when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuad=
e the farmer to put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist =
in nature. Following their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the f=
armer will forget the soil and lose sight of his inherent values and their =
influence." Source: Fauna in soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest that =
you are ignorant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and=
folly of humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly t=
hrough visual and quantifiable means.
> > > > >
> > > > > evan
> > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogr=
oups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Since it is Sunday [http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#M=
y_DVD]
http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#My_DVD
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the microb=
ial perspective as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you nee=
d nothing like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say tha=
t a device is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, proto=
zoa and fungal hyphae. Where does that come from?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what yo=
u have been describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not s=
o good. They definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly poc=
kets but I will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files sect=
ion here which was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undef=
ined. [Even though some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great potent=
ial for various nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable b=
ut for now I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for productio=
n of data if possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpag=
e consists of video recordings of microbial populations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adios Amigo,
> > > > > > Tim
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoo=
groups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how c=
an I?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer on =
a perpetual brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological d=
iversity, true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That is no=
t to say that it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying di=
fferent categories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For instance, we get people confused about our biological pro=
ducts all the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do thi=
s for two reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in ou=
r biologicals. They are created on a farm that has been in the same family =
for 350 years and have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to la=
beling laws, only certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. Thi=
s leaves people to believe they are the only ones that are important. Some =
on this list may take issue with that, but you should deal with the general=
public every day. Most people simply believe what they are told. It's the =
same when 99% of this country believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintia=
n health in an ecosystem. Most of the time they don't even know what an eco=
system is, they think microbes are the reason for hand sanitizer. Not tryin=
g to be ugly, its simply the truth. Not being able to claim biological exis=
tence on a label cripples people's ability to know about them. This has hap=
pened with "essential nutrients" with plants. Plants can use 50-60 elements=
directly or indirectly (microbes all of them as co-factors), yet the "expe=
rts" speak of 17 at the most.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in mod=
ern society is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (and=
microbes) for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, what=
we need from them.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbes,=
is what function those microbes perform. We know very little about this co=
nsidering estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been iden=
tified, for example.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Potential NEW microbe species: [http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12=
/136207874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life]
http://www.npr.=
org/2011/05/12/136207874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on-the-tree-of-life
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we ar=
e both humans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a =
better basketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at=
us under a microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish wit=
h no natural stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another si=
mple statement of truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with=
other organisms. These are not tiny programed machines, they are living li=
fe forms.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What are "PGPR products"?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, outsi=
de of individual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article=
on a "smart community" or vortex bacteria ;)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > [http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&v=
iew=article&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Ite=
mid=89]
http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=
=article&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=
=89
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the bene=
fit from microbes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often=
it is the assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant dir=
ectly towards a microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work =
done by microbes for plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what i=
f the starter cant come out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, wh=
at if there is no trainer or assistant coach?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but w=
e all know the benefit of having a microbe help.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yttr=
ium to help us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we=
know, but if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most peop=
le's anymore, microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has b=
een implicated in Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially wi=
th people eating so much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their undera=
rms. This is the importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Re=
ad "Minerals for the Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know as=
much as we think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human sup=
posed to know how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coac=
h (human) puts the wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards=
can't beat a well balanced basketball team, and the center must get the as=
sist from the point guard to dunk the ball.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biologica=
l teamwork, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to cat=
ch her on her pass?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are discu=
ssing, there may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis direc=
tly except out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an o=
bstacle course and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what pre=
vents people from gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us b=
eing trained to expect hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining=
potential truths.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are un=
measureable and unobservable.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a spec=
ies, cripples us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a=
law if it happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not w=
ork this way, by design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence o=
f the anthropocetric concept of the scientific method, again, while not wor=
thless, is making "laws" for humans that do not jive with the laws of Natur=
e. In fact, they are counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting h=
it in the head by the apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time dis=
cussing how the apple got up there to begin with.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable life=
force involved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.=
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm referr=
ing too. Read Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as =
the guts of microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant fo=
od" is contained in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink =
or eat at will depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When usin=
g soluble artificial nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found th=
roughout teh soil and the drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as w=
ell. This accounts for initial higher yields, but is actually only obesity.=
His description resonates with me.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are what =
you eat". It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their po=
op, but we again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the conne=
ction here, but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic pe=
rspective: [
http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html] ht=
tp://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider mic=
robes to be responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they a=
re for us in our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fung=
i in theirs. This is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but m=
ost importantly they make plant food in the cycle of life.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, wh=
ere does it go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not =
be directly, I presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nu=
trients and natural. For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth =
TOnic on a plant and it will love it. If I do the same with an artificial n=
utrient it will murder the plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that=
a human can never know. We must be humble to this.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store al=
l the time with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when =
they uised an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is awar=
e on some level the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this w=
ork. Are tehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I su=
spect there is a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know on that DVD..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yah=
oogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hi Evan;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/quan=
tified by DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, arch=
aea and fungi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/=
archaea, flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, f=
ungal hyphae. These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as look=
ing outdoors to see the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There =
are also differences which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirel=
y different shapes and motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can ass=
ume they are of different genera but this is not hard and fast with this gr=
oup. Likewise with fungal hyphae if they grow differently, produce differen=
t spores and throw down septate at different distances, have different memb=
ranes, etc. I can conclude they are of different genera. With flagellates, =
ciliates and amoebae it is quite simple to discern different genera visuall=
y. And you don't need to know their name to know they are different. That i=
s the diversity I'm looking for in a compost tea, soil or compost sample. H=
ave you seen my DVD?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > > > > > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I beli=
eve humus creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the p=
redators like protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are=
cycled to plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and util=
ize only 30 to 40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they e=
xcrete is the 60 to 70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutri=
ents which can be directly uptaken by plants.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of hum=
us is somewhat still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesi=
s of it being formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (t=
hat I know of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the=
organic material is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular s=
tructure (humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the or=
iginating organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate s=
tructure (supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost te=
a would 'hold' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken =
place, then it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If thes=
e nutrients are in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them th=
rough 'dependable' laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need =
to be done without any extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypot=
hesis.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned may =
have someplace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something wh=
ich may be specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the=
case with the PGPR products.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea_at_y=
ahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point ac=
ross otherwise.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, but=
nothing I can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fres=
h brew starting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding da=
ily for reference and will report back.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possibl=
y the diversity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining=
ACTUAL diversity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative =
importance. Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as lon=
g as it is not aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew f=
rom a garden store they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly i=
nterested in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightfully so.=
But the aspect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fa=
ct that microbes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over ti=
me is that the longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient c=
yclers, and I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cyc=
lers in their own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and creat=
e humus, or plant food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the=
more plant food you have. The people in the testimonial video may simply b=
e reacting to the perfect plant food beenfit, not the biological influence.=
I like to think the living microbes have a direct influence, but how can o=
ne know for sure?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an indoo=
r grower who is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is=
not necessarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His =
interests may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewi=
ng makes more sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews g=
oing and use on every watering.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is intereste=
d in the long term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by b=
atch brewing and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The future is defining applications and the need for cert=
ain microbes in those applications, then establishing food sources and brew=
times that encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research=
has not been done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pretty=
much shooting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that wa=
rrant progress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer wh=
o discovered that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost damage=
in plants. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on th=
e leaf surface by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and cr=
stalizes the moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this micro=
be and use a food source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races a=
t the potetnial applications, but this is the future.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey wre=
nch into these ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss mic=
robes as if they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that =
you cannot see biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a la=
b analysis can only get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe i=
nfluences growing plants. I don't know of any labs connecting biological as=
says and sourcews with plant growth...and this is the most important thing!=
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biodyn=
amic method compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenge=
d to operate in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in =
a post a couple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenge=
d more, they develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your c=
hildren are they going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.=
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll r=
eport back...peace
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_tea=
_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan. I=
'd be more interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials=
(BTW I don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do =
believe that a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it i=
s more beneficial than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I'v=
e carried out have wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal h=
yphae quite devoured by bacteria.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or DO=
2 I'd be interested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a college =
growing program and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon=
airlift brewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constrai=
nts we started the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for th=
e seminar. I checked the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was compl=
ete. Bacteria/archaea, flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 pp=
m. Next morning shut it down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew ba=
ck up again. I did not take the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 =
to 40 hours were beginning to show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundanc=
e of ciliates and less flagellates. Now does that mean the ACT is not as fu=
nctional? I don't know. But it was on its way to being overun by ciliates. =
We've been told by some in the field, this is a bad sign. I believe ciliate=
s cycle nutrients but I think the lack of diversity is not great.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stumbl=
ed on.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost_t=
ea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years using=
a Vortex Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost tea=
created in this way: [
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0] http:/=
/www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least once=
per week. In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using =
a 60 gallon unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a cer=
tian amoutn of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It wor=
ks great.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, but=
also on a "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food=
. When attaining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that th=
is process creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all,=
the guts of bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicable=
biological product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be purtc=
hased from a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may=
be more important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening=
or indoor gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an oper=
ating soil food web.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewer =
to every gardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes=
with a brew that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the=
unit, and never have we had a negative response.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea units =
in this capacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not pers=
onally tested it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potential=
s of compost tea, but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspecti=
ve.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In [mailto:compost_tea%40yahoogroups.com] compost=
_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction - Carruthers" <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contamina=
tion if you continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your ye=
ast again and again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good que=
stion.
> > > > > > > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see the =
discussions on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is not n=
ecessary. Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrients in t=
he compost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt if=
using the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: [mailto:compost_tea%40yah=
oogroups.com] compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archives an=
d haven't found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help me=
out.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea going by=
, draining off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would wit=
h a sourdough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as well=
? As an urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings =
as possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
Received on Fri Jul 01 2011 - 10:53:22 EDT