[compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrients?

From: Tim Wilson <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:50:07 -0000

"Those looking for something they cannot buy off a shelf with more "plant f=
ood" brew perpetually."

The trouble being that there is no evidence 'I know of' to support this.

I am not anti-longterm brewing but someone engaged in it (the store/person =
brewing it), trying to promote nutrient cycling (plant food) is irresponsib=
le if they are trying to pass it off as aerated compost tea (as related to =
what that has been accepted to be) without testing it every day with a micr=
oscope (and maybe O2 meter). [if they are selling it that is]

There are many (commercial) people brewing compost tea improperly and it do=
es a disservice to many (commercial) who are going to great efforts to do i=
t properly.

Just what you said Evan, that people brew timed brews who are trying to est=
ablish soil food webs. This is not necessarily true at all. Most people I k=
now making ACT do it for the quick nutrient blast to their plants.

One thing I've got to say is that I really HATE that term compost tea that =
we are stuck with. It is really a multiplied microbial extract. (MEE) ;>

Salutations,
Tim

--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_...> wrote:
>
> I agree, Tad. I would think there is less diversity in a longer brew. It =
all depends on the context of your approach. To put it simply, those lookin=
g to establish soil food webs batch brew. Those looking for something they =
cannot buy off a shelf with more "plant food" brew perpetually. That's how =
I think about it anyway.
>
> I just had a conversation with a microbiologist from our local University=
. He happened to be in the parking lot when I showed up for work waiting to=
 pick up his wife's CSA share. I have talked with him several times in the =
past and we have made plans to work together. His past emphasis was on E.co=
li and he is now moving into fungi. They have identified a new species of f=
ungi that is found in concetrations of 10,000 micrograms per gram, much hig=
her than normal species in healthy conditions. I didn't have time to fully =
engage him, but he said to me verbally without understanding everything he =
was saying to me that they could measure biological strength of organisms.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts or ideas on how this could be done?
>
> evan
> www.VortexBrewer.com
>
>
>
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, Tad Hussey <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> >
> > Evan,
> >
> > I think you have a valid point, in that there is a lot we don't know ab=
out
> > microbial interactions with plants in the rhizosphere. As Tim has poin=
ted out,
> > there has been ongoing research in this field, conducted mostly in Euro=
pe. I've
> > read a few papers that he's eluded to and they quite good.
> >
> > I think this lack of knowledge is the very reason that ACT is so critic=
al in
> > organic systems. It's a shotgun approach, as we attempt to put out the=
 highest
> > levels of diverse microbes as possible (visible morphological differenc=
es in
> > bacteria/archea, fungal hyphae, flagellates, and ciliates). This is why=
 I think
> > brewing for 24-36 hours (on average) is so critical. Perpetual brews e=
liminate
> > that diversity, as monocultures become dominate in the tea. I'm not sa=
ying it
> > has zero benefit, but it's not going to contain anywhere near the diver=
sity or
> > concentrations of microbial populations that you would have in a shorte=
r brew.
> >
> > Now personally, I'd probably be inclined to use a perpetual brew tea ov=
er a
> > dormant or instant tea, with limited sets of organisms, but again we're=
 
> > sacrificing the diversity that I believe is so critical, precisely beca=
use there
> > is so much we don't know. Let's get all the organisms out there in suf=
ficient
> > diversity and quantity and let the plant be in charge. To use your bas=
ketball
> > analogy, if it wants more "power forwards" or a good "center," then it'=
s going
> > to put out exudates to increase that particular bacterial population. =
But it
> > needs to be in the brew in order for the plant to be able to access it,=
 right?
> > And that's what leads us back to the need for good diversity!
> >
> > ~Tad
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: evanfolds <evan_at_>
> > To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wed, June 29, 2011 6:59:47 AM
> > Subject: [compost_tea] Re: can a brew continue by simply adding nutrien=
ts?
> >
> >
> > Quite an intense review of humus, Tim. I skimmed it and read some of it=
, but not
> > all of it yet.
> >
> >
> > There are certainly those studying the technicalities of these natural=
 
> > substances with great fervor and accomplishment, no doubt. What I was r=
eferring
> > too is the lack of emphasis on studying microbial balance and populatio=
ns
> > towards the growth of plants. After all, the impulse from studying the =
life of
> > the soil is in the context of what comes out of it. At least that is my=
 impulse.
> >
> >
> > It seems to me that if we started to connect what see under the scope w=
ith how
> > it helps plants grow that we could go a long way in establishing a base=
line of
> > what soil "should" be. This would lend more credence to the recommendat=
iosn
> > given by labs.
> >
> >
> > Look at it from a mineral approach. You go the Extension Service and th=
ey advise
> > you on how much ime to use to correct your pH on a piece of paper. Lime=
 is
> > comprised of Ca and Mg. What if you have a K deficiency? It's extremeel=
y short
> > sighted and ignores the profound research done by Albrecht, et al in th=
e 40's.
> > We know the sweet spot in soil with miunerals, but not microbes.
> >
> >
> > Just evaluating what you see under the scope in regards to what you usu=
ally see
> > does not address how well that microbial balance and population works i=
n the
> > soil in regards to growing healthy nutrient dense plants. I know there =
are some
> > at NC State that are beginning to address microbial balance in soil fro=
m this
> > perspective, but they are 50 years behind the mineral approach.
> >
> >
> > I think this is what Jason was referencing in his "good luck getting fu=
nding"
> > blurb.
> >
> >
> > By the way, Tim, great symopsis of your visual under the scope. I'm ver=
y much
> > looking forward to your DVD..
> >
> > evan
> > www.VortexBrewer.com
> >
> > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> wrote:
> > >
> > > Evan,
> > >
> > > There are quite a few scientists researching how nutrients are cycled=
 in the
> > >rhyzosphere via predation of bacteria/archaea by protozoa. Some of the=
se are
> > >Marianne Clareholm, Michael Bonkowski, Bryan Griffiths, Vigdis Torsvik=
. Not only
> > >are many scientists studying this area but are also using DNA combined=
 with
> > >direct microscopy to attempt to determine bacterial/archaeal and funga=
l
> > >specialties of which you speak. I have quite a number of papers I can =
send you
> > >but some are referenced on my webpage. [Did you read the paper on humu=
s I posted
> > >for you?]
> > >
> > > The thing about compost tea is that it is so simple to ascertain when=
 you have
> > >the basic microbial population you are seeking for supporting the micr=
obial
> > >nutrient loop. The microbial nutrient loop refers fairly specifically =
to
> > >nutrients released by protozoa (mainly flagellates and naked amoebae) =
directly
> > >following consumption of bacteria/archaea. [this is not to slight the =
presence
> > >of supportive fungi] There are some who have a vested interest in comp=
licating
> > >this but it is not complicated. It is similar to me choosing whether t=
o pay a
> > >lawyer $30K to file a patent for me or do the fairly simple work mysel=
f at a
> > >fraction of the cost. Lawyer's don't want lay people to learn their la=
nguage
> > >just like many laboratories don't wish people to learn they can count =
their own
> > >microbes.
> > >
> > >
> > > When I brew a compost tea it may have 5,000 to 10,000 bacteria/archae=
a and 5
> > >flagellates per field and a hyphae complex every 10 fields at 18 hours=
 or it may
> > >take 36 hours. With a microscope it is not a guessing game. Besides be=
ing able
> > >to evaluate this and observe this basic diversity, I am also able to s=
ee that I
> > >have some rigid flagellates which are round, some which are long and s=
ome which
> > >are bumpy and that I have two very different looking plastic flagellat=
es. From
> > >this observation I can ascertain that I have 5 species/genera of flage=
llates. I
> > >might also observe that I have some tiny smooth testate amoebae and so=
me large
> > >rough shelled ones as well as some small directional spreading naked a=
moebae and
> > >some larger finger type pseudopod naked amoebae, indicating 4 species/=
genera of
> > >amoebae. I may also observe 2 or more species/genera of ciliates. Thes=
e are
> > >really easy to tell different types. Fungal hyphae is trickier but one=
 can learn
> > >to identify species by spore appearance but as mentioned earlier, if I=
 see
> > >really different septal wall frequency, different colors and membranes=
, it
> > >usually follows that there are different species/genera of fungi prese=
nt. I
> > >don't usually expect to see many nematodes in compost tea but in a com=
post or
> > >soil sample, I can tell whether they are good nematodes which consume=
 
> > >bacteria/archaea and cycle nutrients by observing their mouth action O=
R not so
> > >good root and fungal suckers. I can also tell a male from a female wit=
h a
> > >microscope. Rotifers, unlike nematodes thrive in a compost tea but the=
y are
> > >kinda rare, except in some vermicompost. [unfortunately some informati=
on out
> > >there has confused them with insect larvae] They are also great nutrie=
nt
> > >cyclers, as they consume bacteria/archaea. They are exciting to watch =
and there
> > >are different species/genera which can be identified visually. = Div=
ersity
> > >
> > > [NOTE: I use species/genera because I'm not sure which term is correc=
t to use]
> > >
> > > Of course there is a whole other level of diversity involved with mic=
robial
> > >species and there are things about compost tea, compost extract and co=
mpost
> > >which we do not understand yet. This is one reason I strive for the hi=
ghest
> > >diversity in a brew so that I might apply the shotgun approach and all=
ow the
> > >soil and plants to select the necessary players needed at the time of=
 
> > >application.
> > >
> > > If I know that my soil or plant is suffering from a certain pathogen =
and know
> > >the type of microbe which might contribute to controlling this then I =
might be
> > >better off to purchase one of the those products which contain it. Or =
if I wish
> > >to increase a specific type of free living nitrogen fixers or endomyco=
rrhizal
> > >species then likewise I can apply spores of those species to the soil.=
 Some of
> > >these bacterial types are likely contained in compost tea but this is =
a totally
> > >different game than the home grower or farmer using ACT for the shotgu=
n
> > >approach.
> > >
> > > That's my take anyway.
> > >
> > > Salutations,
> > > Tim
> > >
> > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Tad, I agree with you. IN NO WAY am I trying to undermine the impor=
tance and
> > >relevance of working with a microscope. It is vital. I'm simply trying=
 to point
> > >out exactly what you stated: "...frankly I don't know what all the dif=
ferent
> > >species and sub-species do in the rhizosphere anyway."
> > > >
> > > > That's it. We don't know. It is my opinion that we need to couple w=
hat we are
> > >seeing under a scope directly with how it works with growing plants. N=
obody to
> > >my knowledge is doing this.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I also think we need to entertain a seperate metric of "microbial s=
trength"
> > >into our analysis here. Without accounting for the reletaive strength =
of the
> > >same microbe from different sources, we are acting as if they are all =
the same.
> > >This may make testing easier, but it does no justice to the end result=
 we all
> > >seek --> healthy biologically active soil that grows nutrient dense pl=
ants
> > >without pest & disease.
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I too am appreciateive of being part of this group...peace & light
> > > >
> > > > evan
> > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tad" <tadhussey_at_> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Evan and Tim,
> > > > >
> > > > > This discussion jumps around quite a bit, but I wanted to chime i=
n on a few
> > >things.
> > > > >
> > > > > First of all, I think the importance of testing is largely unders=
tated and
> > >many commercial manufacturers of brewers don't do proper testing befor=
e selling
> > >their brewers or making claims as to efficacy. One SFI test is not su=
fficient
> > >in my opinion, but is a good starting point. Successive microscope wo=
rk is
> > >better, even if it is qualitative in nature.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Ethan, you talk about "true diversity" as something we cannot see=
 or
> > >understand without DNA testing. I have to agree with Tim here in that=
 direct
> > >microscopy is really the most effective methodology we have for evalua=
ting
> > >microbial teas and extracts at this time. DNA testing would really no=
t give me
> > >much more information and is not realistic, as each brew would be diff=
erent, and
> > >frankly I don't know what all the different species and sub-species do=
 in the
> > >rhizosphere anyway.
> > > > >
> > > > > However, I can tell the difference better a ciliate and a flagell=
ate. I
> > >can see that they're both present in my tea and in good ratios. I can=
 see
> > >different morphology in the bacteria and whether it's motile or formin=
g large
> > >areas on the slide of biomass. This is the diversity I'm talking abou=
t. It
> > >gives me data that I can then use to determine the quality of my produ=
ct.
> > > > >
> > > > > Every brew I've ever taken for longer than a few days lacks this =
diversity.
> > >DNA testing is not going to show anything surprising in this regard. =
If I'm
> > >unable to find fungal hyphae through direct microscopy, it's not going=
 to
> > >magically show up through other means of testing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Our solution to this issue was to have hydro shops brew 1-2 times=
 a week,
> > >and customers just knew that if they wanted ACT, they would have to co=
me in on a
> > >Weds or a Saturday and those would be the days it's available for purc=
hase.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Some manufacturers claim you can refrigerate their tea or store i=
t for a
> > >period of time. I find this irresponsible and have yet to see anyone =
provide
> > >data to show otherwise. And personally, I don't see how they ever cou=
ld. With
> > >a properly made ACT, you've created an unsustainable amount of aerobic=
 microbes
> > >at it's peak (avg 24-36 hours). I don't believe there is a way to mai=
ntain the
> > >diversity and concentrations of organisms over time.
> > > > >
> > > > > As Tim stated, it would be relatively easy to test Evan's theory =
about
> > >plant available nutrients being more accessible in longer brews by jus=
t testing
> > >for nutrients say at 24 hours and again a week later from the same liq=
uid,
> > >without any additions.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess my point is that let's not throw out direct microscopy as=
 the
> > >standard to evaluating teas, just because it doesn't answer every ques=
tion we
> > >might have. Spend enough time behind a microscope and I think you'll =
find that
> > >you can learn quite a bit about how your teas change over time. For i=
nstance, I
> > >can make a bacterial dominated tea, fungal dominated tea, or flagellat=
e
> > >dominated tea all from the same material, simply by adjusting the leng=
th of the
> > >brewing cycle.
> > > > >
> > > > > In order for out industry to continue to grow and gain legitimacy=
, I think
> > >it's important that we move away from testimonials, quasi-science, and=
 
> > >unsubstantiated claims, and towards direct microscopy and methodology =
that can
> > >be replicated in a variety of environments and with different brewers.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think these discussions are beneficial as well. There's a lot =
of
> > >different knowledge and experience floating around in here and I'm gla=
d to be a
> > >part of the group!
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Tad
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tim, I'm not trying to overcomplicate compost tea. I'm simply t=
rying to
> > >speak to its complexity. The reality is that the only way to illustrat=
e actual
> > >diversity is through DNA testing. I work loosely with a local lab who=
 
> > >sepcializes in E.coli testing. We live at the end of the Caope Fear ri=
ver in NC
> > >and there are more hogs than people in this state. They track contamin=
ation
> > >sources to outbreaks in water ways and are able to reverse engineer wh=
ere it
> > >comes from. Pretty cool. Of course, they cannot tell this without DNA =
testing.
> > >That's my point. Not that you cannot get valuable information out what=
 you are
> > >doing. That is not my point.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bottom line, if we assume we can get what we need from a visual=
 
> > >observation we end up like Justis von Liebig (the man who gave us the =
NPK and
> > >crippled agriculture forever) identifying "essential nutrients" from a=
n ashing
> > >experiment. After all, he went to his grave regretting that:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Unfortunately the true beauty of agriculture with its intellec=
tual and
> > >animating principles is almost unrecognized. The art of agriculture wi=
ll be lost
> > >when ignorant, unscientific and short sighted teachers persuade the fa=
rmer to
> > >put all his hopes in universal remedies, which don't exist in nature. =
Following
> > >their advice, bedazzled by an ephemeral success, the farmer will forge=
t the soil
> > >and lose sight of his inherent values and their influence." Source: Fa=
una in
> > >soil ecosystems, by Gero Benckiser (p 6)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now I'm not trying to compare you to von Liebig, or suggest tha=
t you are
> > >ignorant or unscientific, simply trying to illustrate the power and fo=
lly of
> > >humanity when they attempt to define the natural world strictly throug=
h visual
> > >and quantifiable means.
> > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > evan
> > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjob_at_> =
wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Since it is Sunday http://www.microbeorganics.com/index.html#=
My_DVD
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Evan; I really believe you are way over complicating the micr=
obial
> > >perspective as it relates to compost tea and extract. Of course you ne=
ed nothing
> > >like DNA testing to see the diversity I described.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There is absolutely no labelling required whatsoever to say t=
hat a
> > >device is capable of extracting and multiplying bacteria/archaea, prot=
ozoa and
> > >fungal hyphae. Where does that come from?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > PGPR = plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, which is what =
you have
> > >been describing. They are all over the market; some good, some not so =
good. They
> > >definitely are restricted to what they say on the label.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'll read your citation concerning humus creation re: jelly p=
ockets but
> > >I will try to post a relatively scientific paper in the files section =
here which
> > >was an eye opener for me on humus. Humus still remains undefined. [Eve=
n though
> > >some cat in New Mexico claims to create his own]
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Glad to hear the good DO2 rate. I suppose there is great pote=
ntial for
> > >various nutrients uptaken in natural growing to be non-detectable but =
for now
> > >I'm going to concern myself with those that can be for production of d=
ata if
> > >possible. My data, which you will discover by seeing my webpage consis=
ts of
> > >video recordings of microbial populations.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Adios Amigo,
> > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> wrote=
:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for your response, Tim. I have no seen your DVD, how=
 can I?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > by the way, just took a DO reading from the Vortex Brewer o=
n a
> > >perpetual brew that's been spinning for over a month and it was 7.8.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Regardless of how informed one is in recognizing biological=
 
> > >diversity, true diversity cannot be attained without DNA testing. That=
 is not to
> > >say that it is not valuable to have scope experience in identifying di=
fferent
> > >categories of microbe, simply a statement of the obvious truth.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For instance, we get people confused about our biological p=
roducts
> > >all the time because we do not claim microbes on the label. We do this=
 for two
> > >reasons. One, we don't propose we can know all the microbes in our bio=
logicals.
> > >They are created on a farm that has been in the same family for 350 ye=
ars and
> > >have a complexity we cannot know. Second, according to labeling laws, =
only
> > >certain strains (Bacillus, mycchorizae) are accepted. This leaves peop=
le to
> > >believe they are the only ones that are important. Some on this list m=
ay take
> > >issue with that, but you should deal with the general public every day=
. Most
> > >people simply believe what they are told. It's the same when 99% of th=
is country
> > >believes Miracle Gro is sufficient to maintian health in an ecosystem.=
 Most of
> > >the time they don't even know what an ecosystem is, they think microbe=
s are the
> > >reason for hand sanitizer. Not trying to be ugly, its simply the truth=
. Not
> > >being able to claim biological existence on a label cripples people's =
ability to
> > >know about them. This has happened with "essential nutrients" with pla=
nts.
> > >Plants can use 50-60 elements directly or indirectly (microbes all of =
them as
> > >co-factors), yet the "experts" speak of 17 at the most.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It is my belief that the onset of degenerative disease in m=
odern
> > >society is a direct (with no smoking gun) result of growing plants (an=
d
> > >microbes) for what they have to have, not what they want, or, better, =
what we
> > >need from them.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Most importantly, however, assuming we can identify microbe=
s, is what
> > >function those microbes perform. We know very little about this consid=
ering
> > >estimates that only 1/4 of the fungal species have even been identifie=
d, for
> > >example.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Potential NEW microbe species:
> > >http://www.npr.org/2011/05/12/136207874/a-new-somewhat-moldy-branch-on=
-the-tree-of-life
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Further, in regards to biological strength and ability, we =
are both
> > >humans. You may be a better soccer player (N cycler) and I may be a be=
tter
> > >basketball player (digester), but one cannot tell this by looking at u=
s under a
> > >microscope. If you purchase a microbe grown in a Petri dish with no na=
tural
> > >stress or predator, the organism is weaker. This is another simple sta=
tement of
> > >truth. They lack life experience and have not worked with other organi=
sms. These
> > >are not tiny programed machines, they are living life forms.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What are "PGPR products"?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There is even thought that certain species of microbes, out=
side of
> > >individual ability, are "smarter" than others. Check out this article =
on a
> > >"smart community" or vortex bacteria ;)
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > >http://www.dynamicyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=arti=
cle&id=1748:social-iq-score-of-bacteria&catid=79:research&Itemid=89
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It would make sense to most, I imagine, that much of the be=
nefit from
> > >microbes comes in their complexity (diversity). Meaning that often it =
is the
> > >assistance of a microbe that has no interaction with a plant directly =
towards a
> > >microbe that does, that accounts for the incalculable work done by mic=
robes for
> > >plants and Nature. To use a basketball analogy, what if the starter ca=
nt come
> > >out of the game and there's no 6th man? Further, what if there is no t=
rainer or
> > >assistant coach?
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Consider a plant, we can grow them with ionic minerals, but=
 we all
> > >know the benefit of having a microbe help.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Consider a human, there are microbes in our gut that use Yt=
trium to
> > >help us digest our food. Yttrium has no direct use by humans that we k=
now, but
> > >if it is not found in our diet, and it is not found in most people's a=
nymore,
> > >microbes cannot cycle Aluminium in our intestines. This has been impli=
cated in
> > >Alzheimers and other degenerative diseases, especially with people eat=
ing so
> > >much Al in pharmaceuticals and using it in their underarms. This is th=
e
> > >importance of using ALL elements as tools for microbes. Read "Minerals=
 for the
> > >Genetic Code", by Dr. Olree.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Nature barely ever works directly. Therefore we don't know =
as much as
> > >we think we know. Given this innate complexity, how is a human suppose=
d to know
> > >how to create a proper biological inoculant? What if the coach (human)=
 puts the
> > >wrong players (microbes) on the court? Five point guards can't beat a =
well
> > >balanced basketball team, and the center must get the assist from the =
point
> > >guard to dunk the ball.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To put it another way, to realize the importance of biologi=
cal
> > >teamwork, what if a trapeze artist picked someone out of the crowd to =
catch her
> > >on her pass?
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Unfortunately, due to the dynamic nature of what we are dis=
cussing,
> > >there may be no way to prove the lab grown weakness hypothesis directl=
y except
> > >out of subjective experience and intuition. We can't set up an obstacl=
e course
> > >and let them run through it. :) This, of course, is what prevents peop=
le from
> > >gravitating towards concepts like BioDynamics due to us being trained =
to expect
> > >hard quantifiable data to even consider entertaining potential truths.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Arguably, the most important aspects of living systems are=
 
> > >unmeasureable and unobservable.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The scientific method, while allowing us to advance as a sp=
ecies,
> > >cripples us. It says that a hypothesis can only be a theory and then a=
 law if it
> > >happens the same way every time. Remember that Nature does not work th=
is way, by
> > >design. She works in chaos and spirals. The consepquence of the anthro=
pocetric
> > >concept of the scientific method, again, while not worthless, is makin=
g "laws"
> > >for humans that do not jive with the laws of Nature. In fact, they are=
 
> > >counterintuitive. Newton pondered gravity by getting hit in the head b=
y the
> > >apple, or so the fable goes, but we spend no time discussing how the a=
pple got
> > >up there to begin with.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Without acknowledging the unobservable and unmeasureable li=
fe force
> > >involved in natural systems, we are only considering half the story.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In regards to the shredder part, yes, that is what I'm refe=
rring too.
> > >Read Podolinski for his descriptions of humus. He describes it as the =
guts of
> > >microbes that form jelly pockets in the soil. becasue "plant food" is =
contained
> > >in certian zoes in the soil the plant can choose to drink or eat at wi=
ll
> > >depending on if the sun is out or teh time of day. When using soluble =
artificial
> > >nutrients there is no jelly pocket, "food" is found throughout teh soi=
l and the
> > >drinking roots of plants cannot help but eat as well. This accounts fo=
r initial
> > >higher yields, but is actually only obesity. His description resonates=
 with me.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You should also read Steiner on the concept of "You are wha=
t you
> > >eat". It's easy to think of microbes cycling nutrients through their p=
oop, but
> > >we again can easily oversimplify things. Some may not see the connecti=
on here,
> > >but "nutrition" is a relative thing from a non-materialistic perspecti=
ve:
> > >http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/NutHealth/19240731p01.html
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > In the end, organic matter does not just melt. I consider m=
icrobes to
> > >be responsible for ALL end results in healthy soil. Just as they are f=
or us in
> > >our gut, or worms and bacteria in theirs, or termites and fungi in the=
irs. This
> > >is why microbes are so important. They help plants, but most important=
ly they
> > >make plant food in the cycle of life.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If plant food is not kept in solution after being created, =
where does
> > >it go? I too believe that this can be documented, but it will not be d=
irectly, I
> > >presume. There is a disconnect between articially created nutrients an=
d natural.
> > >For instance, I can spray a 2000ppm solution of Earth TOnic on a plant=
 and it
> > >will love it. If I do the same with an artificial nutrient it will mur=
der the
> > >plant. Nature has a way of balancing things that a human can never kno=
w. We must
> > >be humble to this.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We have people using natural nutrients in our retail store =
all the
> > >time with an NPK that is 2-1-1 who get MUCH better results than when t=
hey uised
> > >an artifical nutrient with a 15-10-10. I'm sure everyone is aware on s=
ome level
> > >the difference of nutrition from Nature versus a factory.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I'm curious to hear the thoughts of the lab we find to this=
 work. Are
> > >tehy set up to assay ionic minerals or biological plant food. I suspec=
t there is
> > >a difference, and maybe one we cannot detect readily.
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let me know on that DVD..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thegoodjo=
b_at_>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Evan;
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Two things jumped at me from your post;
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1/ Diversity; The type of diversity which is qualified/qu=
antified
> > >by DNA testing is the species (genera?) difference in bacteria, archae=
a and
> > >fungi genera. The type of diversity I am talking about is bacteria/arc=
haea,
> > >flagellates, naked amoebae, testate amoebae, ciliates, rotifers, funga=
l hyphae.
> > >These are easily discerned microscopically; as simple as looking outdo=
ors to see
> > >the types of animals and birds in your backyard. There are also differ=
ences
> > >which can be discerned inter species. If I see entirely different shap=
es and
> > >motility within bacterial/archaeal species I can assume they are of di=
fferent
> > >genera but this is not hard and fast with this group. Likewise with fu=
ngal
> > >hyphae if they grow differently, produce different spores and throw do=
wn septate
> > >at different distances, have different membranes, etc. I can conclude =
they are
> > >of different genera. With flagellates, ciliates and amoebae it is quit=
e simple
> > >to discern different genera visually. And you don't need to know their=
 name to
> > >know they are different. That is the diversity I'm looking for in a co=
mpost tea,
> > >soil or compost sample. Have you seen my DVD?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2/ Shredders;
> > > > > > > > > You mention shredders as providers of plant food and I be=
lieve
> > >humus creators if I'm not mistaken. I presume you are speaking of the =
predators
> > >like protozoa and nematodes. My understanding of how nutrients are cyc=
led to
> > >plants microbially is protozoa consume bacteria/archaea and utilize on=
ly 30 to
> > >40 percent of the energy derived for sustenance. What they excrete is =
the 60 to
> > >70 percent in bioavailable (ionic form - soluble) nutrients which can =
be
> > >directly uptaken by plants.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I believe (as far as I know today) that the creation of h=
umus is
> > >somewhat still in unknown territory but I had not heard the hypothesis=
 of it
> > >being formed from the guts of bacteria (microbes). There are two (that=
 I know
> > >of) schools of thought on what comprises humus as to whether the organ=
ic
> > >material is no longer recognizeable and it is a unique molecular struc=
ture
> > >(humic polymers or covalent bonded) OR where some aspect of the origin=
ating
> > >organic matter is detectable and it forms a molecular aggregate struct=
ure
> > >(supramolecular aggregates or non-covalent bonded).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > As we have discussed, it is my thought that if a compost =
tea would
> > >'hold' nutrients in solution as a factor of predation having taken pla=
ce, then
> > >it would seem a perpetual brew would make better sense. If these nutri=
ents are
> > >in solution, it should be relatively easy to detect them through 'depe=
ndable'
> > >laboratory testing. I do believe the testing would need to be done wit=
hout any
> > >extraction processes but that is my uneducated hypothesis.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The specialty or talented bacteria which you mentioned ma=
y have
> > >someplace in compost tea but presently I see them more as something wh=
ich may be
> > >specifically fermented or purchased ready to use, as is much the case =
with the
> > >PGPR products.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan_at_> w=
rote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Sorry for the product plug, Tim, hard to get the point =
across
> > >otherwise.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > We have tracked DO in the past with a perpetual brew, b=
ut nothing
> > >I can regurgitate. I have tasked my guys to track that with a fresh br=
ew
> > >starting the beginning of next week along with what we are adding dail=
y for
> > >reference and will report back.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I will admit that the quality of the microbe, and possi=
bly the
> > >diversity, is compromised when brewing perpetually. Who's determining =
ACTUAL
> > >diversity anyway wihtout DNA testing? However, that is of relative imp=
ortance.
> > >Put it this way, ANY living solution is better than none as long as it=
 is not
> > >aerobic. In other words, when people take a perpetual brew from a gard=
en store
> > >they cannot buy the equivalant from a shelf.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Also, I realize that this is a compost tea forum mostly=
 
> > >interested in the biological aspects of living solutions, and rightful=
ly so. But
> > >the aspect of compsot tea that gets perpetually glossed over is the fa=
ct that
> > >microbes make perfect plant food. What I think is happening over time =
is that
> > >the longer you brew the more plant food you have.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Tim, you reference that you think ciliates are nutrient=
 cyclers,
> > >and I would agree. I would argue that ALL microbes are nutrient cycler=
s in their
> > >own right. The shredders spill the guts of bacteria and create humus, =
or plant
> > >food. Arguably, the more shredding you have going on, the more plant f=
ood you
> > >have. The people in the testimonial video may simply be reacting to th=
e perfect
> > >plant food beenfit, not the biological influence. I like to think the =
living
> > >microbes have a direct influence, but how can one know for sure?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > It all depends on the application. For instance, an ind=
oor grower
> > >who is planning on throwing his potting soil away in 3-4 months is not=
 
> > >necessarily trying to establish a soil food web in his container. His =
interests
> > >may be more on the plant food emphasis, therefore perpetual brewing ma=
kes more
> > >sense to him. We have many growers who keep perpetual brews going and =
use on
> > >every watering.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > In another context there may be a farmer who is interes=
ted in the
> > >long term biological balance in his soil who may benefit more by batch=
 brewing
> > >and ensuring the sanctity of the microbes involved.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The point is, we don't know for sure.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The future is defining applications and the need for ce=
rtain
> > >microbes in those applications, then establishing food sources and bre=
w times
> > >that encourage those microbes needed most effectively. This research h=
as not
> > >been done, and is barely even discussed.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Without a baseline of what soil "should" be, we're pret=
ty much
> > >shooting in the dark. However, there are certain applications that war=
rant
> > >progress. I saw the other day a reference from a Australian farmer who=
 
> > >discovered that there is actually a bacteria responsible for frost dam=
age in
> > >plants. In other words, its not the temperature, but an excretion on t=
he leaf
> > >surface by a certain microbe that makes the plants vulnerable and crst=
alizes the
> > >moisture. What if we could determine a predator for this microbe and u=
se a food
> > >source and brew time that encouraged it? The mind races at the potetni=
al
> > >applications, but this is the future.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There are also variables involved that throw a monkey w=
rench into
> > >these ideas. For example, the strength of microbes. We discuss microbe=
s as if
> > >they are all the same, but this is not true. Keep in mind that you can=
not see
> > >biological strength under a microscope. In other words, a lab analysis=
 can only
> > >get you so far in regards to how the specific microbe influences growi=
ng plants.
> > >I don't know of any labs connecting biological assays and sourcews wit=
h plant
> > >growth...and this is the most important thing!
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > One way to think about this is biodynamics. In the biod=
ynamic
> > >method compost is not turned. In other words, the microbe is challenge=
d to
> > >operate in an aerobic/anaerobic capacity, as Dr. Ingham referenced in =
a post a
> > >couple of weeks ago. The result is that the mcirobes are challenged mo=
re, they
> > >develop more life experince, so to speak. If you coddle your children =
are they
> > >going to end up as accomplsihed adults? You get the idea.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Anyway, food for thought. When we get some results I'll=
 report
> > >back...peace
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > evan
> > > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Tim Wilson" <thego=
odjob_at_>
> > >wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was hoping you would speak up on this subject Evan.=
 I'd be
> > >more interested in the tracked dissolved oxygen than the testimonials =
(BTW I
> > >don't know if anyone told you advertising is on Sundays only) I do bel=
ieve that
> > >a semi-perpetual brew is possible but do not know whether it is more b=
eneficial
> > >than starting a brew over. Some of the longterm brews I've carried out=
 have
> > >wound up with a predominence of ciliates and/or fungal hyphae quite de=
voured by
> > >bacteria.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If you have tracked the microbial development and/or =
DO2 I'd be
> > >interested in hearing/seeing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I was asked recently to put on a seminar for a colleg=
e growing
> > >program and they did not have a brewer. I threw together a 5 gallon ai=
rlift
> > >brewer to donate, using the 2 CFM Hailea. Because of time constraints =
we started
> > >the brew at my place so it would be on about 36 hours for the seminar.=
 I checked
> > >the brew at 11 hours and it blew my mind. It was complete. Bacteria/ar=
chaea,
> > >flagellates & mega fungal hyphae. The DO2 was 8.2 ppm. Next morning sh=
ut it
> > >down, drove about 2 hours, then started the brew back up again. I did =
not take
> > >the O2 meter but samples under the scope at 36 to 40 hours were beginn=
ing to
> > >show chewed down hyphae and quite an abundance of ciliates and less fl=
agellates.
> > >Now does that mean the ACT is not as functional? I don't know. But it =
was on its
> > >way to being overun by ciliates. We've been told by some in the field,=
 this is a
> > >bad sign. I believe ciliates cycle nutrients but I think the lack of d=
iversity
> > >is not great.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On an upnote; What an incredible little brewer I stum=
bled on.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > *Evan; I'm working on the testing thing.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Salutations,
> > > > > > > > > > > Tim
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "evanfolds" <evan=
_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > We have been brewing perpetually for many years usi=
ng a
> > >Vortex Brewer. Here is a video of many happy customers using compost t=
ea created
> > >in this way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNWyTqUUN0
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > it is important to refresh teh solution at least on=
ce per
> > >week. In other words, if you are distributing 10 gallons a wekk using =
a 60
> > >gallon unit the inputs compound on themselves. We suggest adding a cer=
tian
> > >amoutn of input for every 5 gallons of water added to the unit. It wor=
ks great.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > This not only makes sense on a convenience level, b=
ut also on
> > >a "plant food" level. We all know microbes make perfect plant food. Wh=
en
> > >attaining a shredder dominance after 48 hours it makes sense that this=
 process
> > >creates more plant food the longer the tea is brewed. After all, the g=
uts of
> > >bacteria make up humus, i.e. plant food.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > We are not suggesting that this provides a replicab=
le
> > >biological product, only that it is a living solution that cannot be p=
urtchased
> > >from a shelf. Depending on the application, the plant food aspect may =
be more
> > >important than the biological aspect. Consider container gardening or =
indoor
> > >gardening where the goal is not necessarily to establish an operating =
soil food
> > >web.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > We have distributed compost tea from a Vortex Brewe=
r to every
> > >gardening situation imagineable over the last 5-6 years, sometimes wit=
h a brew
> > >that has been spinning for up to 6 months without cleaning the unit, a=
nd never
> > >have we had a negative response.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I would not receommend using other compost tea unit=
s in this
> > >capacity, not because it will not work, but becasue I have not persona=
lly tested
> > >it. There is still MUCH work to do to determine the potentials of comp=
ost tea,
> > >but perpetual brewing sure makes sense from our perspective.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Evan
> > > > > > > > > > > > www.VortexBrewer.com
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "RTS Friction -=
 
> > >Carruthers" <home_at_> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > It would seem you run the risk of outside contami=
nation if
> > >you continue to use your base stock, much the same as using your yeast=
 again and
> > >again in beer making. Look forward to other comments good question.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > If you trail through the archives you will see th=
e
> > >discussions on adding extra food/nutrient, many members believe it is =
not
> > >necessary. Thanks to good advice I now rely on the release of nutrient=
s in the
> > >compost/vermicast to multiply the MO's, I do add a little barley malt =
if using
> > >the tea for getting the compost heap going or doing a lawn drench.
> > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Ian C
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Paul M Moriarty To: compost_tea_at_yahoogrou=
ps.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 9:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > New guy here. I've searched through the archive=
s and
> > >haven't found an answer to my question. Hopefully, one of you can help=
 me out.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Is it possible to just keep a batch of tea goin=
g by,
> > >draining off 1/2 the tea and replacing with water & food as one would =
with a
> > >sourdough starter, or is it necessary to replenish the castings as wel=
l? As an
> > >urban farmer, I'm trying to get as much mileage out of my castings as =
possible.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




Received on Fri Jul 01 2011 - 10:53:41 EDT

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