[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
Re: RES: [compost_tea] Nutritional effects
Lloyd -
I'm confused. First you say that if you hit a plant with growth energy at the wrong time, it will cause problems. And then you ask if I don't think this could happen?
If you push nitrate and amino sugars during flowering, of course you can cause all kinds of problems. You will push vegetative growth instead of reproductive growth. I think most plant physiologists who have kept up with the times know about this. Even ones in academia.
So, if you used a CT high in N right at flowering in some plants, or at fruit set in others, you could probably mess up big time.
But we don't typically add that much N with a single CT application, because the point is not to overdo, it is to feed the bacteria and fungi in the tea, not whomp the plant with nutrients. And the organisms on the leaves enhance uptake of nutrients, so you want to be careful about not pushing too high concentration.
Most growers know the "Goldilocks principle". Although I know a vineyard in Sonoma where they apparently didn't know better, but they messed up with commercial fertilizer, not tea. Thank goodness.
You asked,
Is it within your paradigm that its possible to influence this - negatively
and positively - with foliar nutrition?
If yes then its a possibility (maybe unlikely but a possibility none the
less) with CT
If No then I guess I better go bang my head on a wall
We have established that people can, and do, do stupid things with CT. Look at people putting way too much food for bacteria in their tea so the tea goes anaerobic. Lack of understanding. And growing E. coli because of that.
Let's re-visit the BBC Lab study one last time. If the reason for doing the experiment had been to let people know that IF THEY GOOF UP IN MAKING TEA, bad things could be the result, then I would have been fine with the study.
And that study is a case of not-doing-tea-correctly.
But Vicki Bess still goes around trying to suggest that their tea production was NORMAL. But she didn't use good compost (it had E. coli in it), and the tea went anaerobic during the tea brew. Her oxygen data were clearly incorrect, for whatever reason (and Joel Reiten still hasn't defended his supersaturation idea even though he said he had an expert who says the machine is supersaturated with oxygen. Data please).
In my experience, the version of the Growing Solutions machine that BBC Lab used goes anaerobic EVERY TIME, when the nutrients that the manufacturer says to add to the machine are added, or when too many additional food resources are added.
E. coli in the tea is NOT normal for proper compost tea. If Vicki would say that if you use the Growing Solutions machine with too many nutrients, then there may be problems, or if she'd say, if you use compost that has E. coli in it, intimating, as she should, that people should be careful with their starting materials, then I would be supportive of what she was saying. But to cause the NOSB to nearly ban all compost tea because she's saying CT normally results in E. coli in tea? That is flat out inappropriate extrapolation of her results. Normal? No way!
She should be explaining E. coli is not normal, and for the right reasons. Not because molasses makes E. coli grow! But because the tea went anaerobic and the competitive organisms were shut down.
Just because you CAN do stupid things does not mean you should ban the technology. Just because you CAN jump off a bridge does not mean we should ban bridges.
Just because we can do stupid things does not mean stupidity has to enter into my paradigm.
What I said before was, I have not heard of anyone having problems with CT causing huge shifts in plant nutrition. Because the plant has to feed the organisms on the leaves, the plant is more-or-less in control of the organism impacts on the plant's nutrition .
If the plant doesn't need the foliar nutrients applied, it doesn't pump out the sugars onto the leaf surfaces, causing the organisms on their leaf surfaces to grow, elevate CO2 on the leaf surface, and result in opening the stomates, and letting more of the nutrients into the plant.
If the plant doesn't need nutrients, it doesn't pump sugars out to the organisms on the leaf surfaces, and fewer nutrients get taken into the plant.
Let the plant do the work, let the plant control what it needs, instead of us PUSHING things on the plant.
That's one of the best things about getting the normal set of organisms back into the system. The system starts to function the way it is supposed to function. Plant health returns to normal.
So, if the plant is in control of it's sugar and nutrient balances, and sends sugars into the leaves and releases on the leaf surface to grow organisms, then elevated brix would tell you your plant needed something, and it is getting it.
If you don't see elevated brix, maybe it is just because the plant had the nutrients it needed, and was completely healthy.
Which would blow the whole brix-being-elevated-is-a-good-thing concept.
But, let's not get into defense mode, because I could come up with another hypothesis that could justify just the reverse situation. Maybe elevated sugar just means the plant is responding with an "immune" reaction to whatever was sprayed, and elevated sugar actually just means the plant is responding, and has nothing to do with health. Except that the plant is not so sick that it can't respond.
If brix drops, maybe it just means the sugars are being turned into some other material that the plant needs, and the plant needs to make more sugar. You caught it in the insulin-just-got-finished-over-producing phase.
So, I would like a plant physiologist to explain to me about sugar, solids, uptake of foliar nutrients, etc.
Coming up with possible scenarios is all very well, but I want DATA!!! Show me the data. Even anecdotal data. Observation of patterns is the first step in the scientific method, even though many of my colleagues forget about that.
I know I have things to learn, but could I wait until next month, after we have the E. coli experiments finished and analzyed?
Thanks -
Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
www.soilfoodweb.com
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor |
ADVERTISEMENT
![]() | |
![]() |
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
compost_tea-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.