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Re: [compost_tea] Digest Number 279



Hi Jason,
We have a 100 gal brewer using a very efficient 1/3 hp regenerative pump.
This size blower is on the edge of being adequate.  I have been considering
a 1/2 hp. for the 100 gal.  The 500 gal obviously has more vol. and head.
Also, the materials used will affect the consumption of the dissolved o2
during the process.  The only way to know (be assured) that your brewer
stays aerobic during the total brewing cycle is by using a computer sys.
that reads the o2 and temp every 2 min.  This cycle will change with the
foods, compost, temp, o2, etc.  When trying to understand what the brewer is
doing only one variable can be changed and MUST be tested through Soil
Foodweb Lab.  Otherwise you are just guessing.  ( 95 % of the time my
assumptions are wrong)Because this is such a dynamic process with many many
variables (many untested and unknown) it becomes very complicated.  Probably
the best advise I can give you is think clearly on what question you are
trying to answer (too many question too many possibilities) and answer one
question at a time.  To consistently get the numbers you want you need to be
consistent in controlling the variables and you need to understand what the
variables are.  This isn't test tube stuff!!  It is real world stuff!!

Long Life-Honey in the Heart    Leon
----- Original Message -----
From: <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
To: <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:31 AM
Subject: [compost_tea] Digest Number 279



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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 13 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Typical brew
           From: "lmvine" <Lmvine1@cs.com>
      2. Re: Digest Number 278
           From: "Leon Hussey" <leon@simplici-tea.com>
      3. Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea
           From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
      4. Re: Typical brew
           From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew@yahoo.com>
      5. colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
      6. Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
      7. Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: laura_s@vaxxine.com
      8. Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
      9. Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
     10. Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate
           From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
     11. Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea
           From: "Anthony" <boofq@wn.com.au>
     12. Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea
           From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
     13. The usage of CaO
           From: "TaChung Huang" <tachung_h@yahoo.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 13:01:07 -0000
   From: "lmvine" <Lmvine1@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Typical brew

--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@g...>
wrote:
> Gee, one strand?  What does that mean?  You got the Santa Beard
fungal growth.....does that mean only one was left in the tea as the
rest were devoured by bacteria or did you only get one out of the
compost?

Jeff, I take it to mean that there was only one strand in the ml or
so of tea analyzed.  I expect the "SC beard" survived but most or
all was attacked by anerobic bacteria due to low oxygen at some
point in the brewing process.

> But let's continue. Does your low fungal number mean you had a bad
tea?  I don't think so. I look at the fungal numbers as being really
important for foliar coverage for disease suppression and not as
important when it comes to  foliar feeding and for soil drench.
Right or wrong?
>
> Cheers, jeff l

It is my understanding that I want fungal dominated tea for a soil
drench on my grapes.  Is that correct Elaine?

Jeff, thanks for your analysis.

Dan



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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:43:10 -0700
   From: "Leon Hussey" <leon@simplici-tea.com>
Subject: Re: Digest Number 278

Thank you Elaine!!  It is all sooo simple and yet very complicated as you
look to each variable.  Our own success and level of success can be
determined by sleep, temp.,  humidity, food, etc. and so it is with all
forms of life.  Looking at this biology as people I think is very helpful
and I appreciate your making this anology so we can really understand this
world we can't see without the help of trained people and special equipment.
Thank you for helping us!!!

Long Life-Honey in the Heart   Leon
----- Original Message -----
From: <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
To: <compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 5:18 AM
Subject: [compost_tea] Digest Number 278



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Compost Tea Seminar April 25th in Escondido, CA
           From: Carole  Eddington <cjeddington@earthlink.net>
      2. Re: Low Fungi
           From: "lmvine" <Lmvine1@cs.com>
      3. california
           From: "COYOTEHILLFARM" <farm@surfglobal.net>
      4. Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea
           From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
      5. Re: info request
           From: sbrustkern@aol.com
      6. Rumen
           From: "Halstead" <halstead@mail.telepac.pt>
      7. Re: Re: Low Fungi
           From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
      8. Re: Typical brew
           From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
      9. Re: california
           From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
     10. Re: Typical brew
           From: Lmvine1@cs.com
     11. Re: Typical brew
           From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas@tandjenterprises.com>
     12. Re: Typical brew
           From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>


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Message: 1
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 05:25:49 -0700
   From: Carole  Eddington <cjeddington@earthlink.net>
Subject: Compost Tea Seminar April 25th in Escondido, CA


Compost Tea Seminar - Upcoming Event on the West Coast

Friday April 25th, 2003 there will be a Compost Tea Seminar on the West
Coast at San Diego Farm Bureau, 1670 E. Valley Pkwy, Escondido, CA Limited
Seating. Reserve by April 18th. If you have any questions or would like
more information please call 760-942-6086 or email geohahn1@juno.com or
visit the web site: www.wormgold.com. $49 Registration Fee covers Buffet
Lunch, Refreshments, & Reprints

The educational program featuring the Soil Food Web (SFI Lab) Technology
developed by Dr. Elaine Ingham will be presented by:


Featured Speaker:

Paul Wagner, Director of SFI Labs in New York (see bio and published
articles at end of this notice)
Subject: How to Enhance Soil Health, Improve Plant Growth and Provide
Disease and Insect Resistance


Seminar Topics to be discussed include:

1.  Understanding the Soil Food Web Technology.
2.  How to manage soil biology to increase yields and plant health, compete
    with disease and insects, reduce water usage, and reduce cost.
3.  Elimination of Need for Chemical Fertilizer and Pesticides
4.  Discussion of basics of vermicompost and compost tea
5.  Major Reduction in Overall Maintenance Costs
6.  Applications for Parks, Golf Courses, Greenhouses, Vineyards,
    Food Crops, Trees (Nut, Fruit, Citrus, forests) etc.
7.  Live demonstration of the WORMGOLD® Extractors.
8.  Question and Answer Session


WORMGOLD Updates:

Wormgold Solution (Compost Tea) reports are now posted on the SFI Website
under Products Tested--Compost Tea.

The Speaker and Panel Discussion at the Seminar held at Cline Cellars
Vineyard in Sonoma, CA on February 14th, 2003 was videotaped and is
presently being edited. The tapes will be available from Wormgold Solutions
and SFI Labs. A posting will be made when available.

The Wormgold website is partially up at www.wormgold.com

WORMGOLD Solution (Compost Tea) will be available starting this spring from
several locations on the East and West Coast, call for locations
415-898-5895 or 760-942-6086.


Published Articles by Paul Wagner:

April 2002 in The Landscaper Newspaper: Sustainable fruit tree management.

May 2002 in The Landscaper Newspaper: Hot, dry and poor soil- stressed
Birch trees. Why are Birch trees so sensitive and what can we do about it?

June 2002 in The Landscaper Newspaper: Do organic fertilizers affect weed
growth? You better believe it!

July 2002 in The Landscaper Newspaper: Using compost tea effectively in the
landscape.

August 2002 in The Landscaper Newspaper: ROOT DISEASES OF TURF: How to
prevent their development and deal with existing problems using soil
biology.

August 2002 in Arbor Age Magazine: Customizing soil mixes to reduce
planting stress.

September 2002 in Arbor Age Magazine: The importance of soil testing.


Bio: Paul J. Wagner

Associates degree in Ornamental Horticulture 1992; International Society of
Arboriculture Certified Arborist; Certified Nursery Professional; Certified
Pesticide Applicator.

13 years working in the horticultural industry; 10 years focused on insect,
disease, and weed management, and soil management.

The last 5 years working in the horticulture industry, he successfully
developed, implemented, and managed organic plant health care programs. He
worked with the first plant health care company on Long Island to utilize a
commercial compost tea brewing machine.

Currently he runs the New York Soil Foodweb Laboratory, and has been working
with Dr. Elaine Ingham for 3 years. He helped three Long Island vineyards,
and one Massachusetts vineyard set up successful trials this season managing
foliar diseases with compost tea.

Hoping to see you at the seminars!

Sincerely,

George Hahn, James and Carole Eddington
WORMGOLD SOLUTIONS LLC
P.O. Box 95, Cardiff by the Sea, CA 92007 and 1712 Tripp Court, Las Vegas,
NV 89108, Ph. 760-942-6086, 415-898-5895, Cell 619-857-4885,
702-460-0935/6 FAX (760) 942-5356 email: geohahn1@juno.com,
cjeddington@earthlink.net, www.wormgold.com


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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 12:31:37 -0000
   From: "lmvine" <Lmvine1@cs.com>
Subject: Re: Low Fungi

Happy Easter all. I use 16 gallon home made unit using AES V301 (0.8
CFM max) air pump and 3 air outlets with 2 in compost basket.
Approx 4# compost and I expect I may have under fed. According to
SFI I have overfed in the past so didn't want to do that. Used 2
tblsp Maxicrop, 2 tblsp Humic Acid and 3 tblsp Org gem with the Org
Gem spaced at intervals during brew. Also about a tsp of Saponyn
(small amount due to foaming).  NO Molasses.

Brew smelled good and SFI made NO mention of bad smell in tea as as
they have previously (even though it took 2 days for delivery).

Any suggestions appreciated.  Dan

--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@g...>
wrote:
> > Any thoughts on why such high Bacteria and low Fungi when
> > I used fungal food??  Maybe a shorter brew time since somehow
> > bacteria apparently "took over".?
> >
>
>
> It would be helpful if we could get an idea of what size brew, how
much compost, what machine or machine type, and quantities of
nutrients so we can compare to our own experiences.
>
> Did you over feed? Did the machine extract any fungi? Too little
oxygen? But these can only be guesses until you lay out your recipe.
>
> Cheers,
> Jeff L



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Message: 3
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 08:24:56 -0400
   From: "COYOTEHILLFARM" <farm@surfglobal.net>
Subject: california

Hallo All

Are there any shows or educations in our field this next 30/45 days in the
west  ??

Per Garp/NH



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Message: 4
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 06:44:41 -0700
   From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea

I have just made my own brewer

- 500 gallons - round tank with flat bottom.  Approx 5' diameter.
- 1/2 hp Gast air pump
- for aeration I ran a 1 1/2" sched 40 pipe into the tank, formed a
cross at the bottom, and drilled a series of 1/16th holes along one edge
of each leg of the cross.  It boils magnificently!

I am waiting for a heater element to arrive so have been experimenting.

First I tried water for 24 hours to test the air blower and some small
aquarium heaters that I had been assured would heat the water.  The
aquarium heaters only got the water temperature up 2 degrees C in 24 hours.

Then I tried 10lbs of alfalfa pellets in 400 gallons of water.
After 18 hours there was a 5 degree C rise in the water temperature
(still with the aquarium heaters) and 4" foam.
After 24 hours (midday) both air temp and water temp had risen to 18
degrees C - I added 1/2 cup of mollasses.
After 36 hours (10pm) air temp had fallen to 11 degrees C but water temp
was still at 18.  6" foam
After 44 hours (6am) air temp down to 8 degrees C but water still at 18!
   Now a pleasant healthy earthy smell around the brewer.

The tank is under cover in my open tractor shed.  It is not insulated
and is completely open at the top, so I must be losing heat, but despite
that it has kept up at 18 degrees C.

It seems to me there must be some considerable  bacterial action taking
place even though I have no compost or activators.  So far only alfalfa
pelets and mollasses.

Jason

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:

> Jason,
>
> I have made both alfalfa and Kelp teas....using compost as well. I
> just add powdered kelp or alfalfa meal to my teas.  Both add nutrients
> to the tea, so you have to back off on other nutrients so the tea
> won't go anaerobic.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff




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Message: 5
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 13:30:52 EDT
   From: sbrustkern@aol.com
Subject: Re: info request

Hi Per,

Check out the events calander for the ICTC, <A
HREF="www.intlctc.org">www.intlctc.org</A>, as it has Dr.
Elaine doing some future presentations, w\the next one being on May 10th.
For those that have had not had the opportunity to meet and hear Elaine
speak, this is an ideal setting.   Hope this helps.

Steve


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Message: 6
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 07:29:11 +0100
   From: "Halstead" <halstead@mail.telepac.pt>
Subject: Rumen

Thomas,

Surely a Rumen is part of the complex stomach system of a ruminant.

Bill H.

Would a bunch of fructose and other kinds of sugars extracted from a variety
of fruits work better than dried cane molasses?  This is often used to build
up rumen in a cows stomach.


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Message: 7
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:21:05 -0800
   From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Low Fungi

For what it is worth and realizing that we all have our own biases and
thoughts, here is how I looked at Dan's brew which resulted in low fungi.

(0.8
CFM max)

Is this enough 02 for 18 gallons? . I have notes at work and will check this
number, but Bob N knows off the top of his head if this is enough
oxygen....BOB? It may be too low.

And does your configuration provide the energy to strip off the fungi? How
"full" is your compost basket? If it is too full, it doesn't matter how much
energy you put in there, you don't get the stripping action. Bob showed me a
great trick: add a few wood chips to help this action.

Finally, because you have two aerators in the basket and only one in the
mix, have you considered putting all three in the mix after 12 hours so you
make sure there is enough oxygen there?

<<<Approx 4# compost>>

Have you tried using a pound or so less? Only more pound and you are at the
rec amount for 25 gallons. Again, this has a lot to do with the size of your
basket.



<Used 2
tblsp Maxicrop, 2 tblsp Humic Acid and 3 tblsp Org gem with the Org
Gem spaced at intervals during brew. Also about a tsp of Saponyn>

The liquid Maxicrop has chlorine in it so I suppose should be aerated
first.Not sure if you used the powder or liquid. I find humic acid to be
really strong stuff. My recipes use 1 teaspoon of humic acid (powder) per 5
gallons...you are using twice that.

Finally, my limited experience has been that the fish H also feeds bacteria.
Try making a tea using your recipe without the fish H.

Of course, what makes it difficult to finally come up with a decent recipe
is that there are so many variables.  I would verify that the Oxygen is
sufficient first. Then check how much compost is in the basket and if there
is sufficient room for real stripping, and then consider a brew without the
Fish H and if that didn't change things, one with lower humic.

O.K. so that is what I think. No right answer here, but the above would be
my initial thinking process as I read the report!  I would discuss these
things during my free 15 minute SFI consulting session that comes with each
test!

Cheers,

Jeff L



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Message: 8
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:47:13 -0400
   From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
Subject: Re: Typical brew

Since it was asked on the list serve, I'll answer, even though the question
was not directed to me.

A typical brew has a "lag time", which is a period of time that the
organisms are not growing, because they have to adjust to the new conditions
they find themselves in, and get geared up to reproduce.  Think of them
being just like tiny people.  If you get parachuted into a new country,
survival is usually first on your mind, finding a place to live, food, and
so forth are first on your mind, not reproduction.  Same with bacteria and
fungi.

Reproduction rates will depend on:

1.  water temperature (if you were dumped into 10 degree water, would you be
thinking about reproduction?  Me neither),

2.  how many people got put in the room.  opps, that should be bacteria or
fungi, right?  The more the merrier..... more offspring will be produced
after that lag period if there were more individuals to start out with

3.  how much food is there? No food, no babies.  Lots of food, many more
babies.

4.  habitat has to be right.  If the individuals require oxygen, calcium,
iron, etc to reproduce, then these nutrients need to be available.  Has to
be enough space, surfaces to attach to (if you are a fungus you don't
reproduce well hanging out free in the water), and if you need some friends
to help you.  The more friends about, the faster this all goes, up to the
point that the friends are occupying in the space your babies would have
taken.  No more babies if there isn't enough space.

So, if conditions are right, then typically, bacteria start growing rapidly
in 3 to 5 hours.  Fungi take off a bit slower, maybe about hour 8 to 10.

Max growth rates usually take awhile to achieve, and is most dependent on
food.  Maximum reproduction (sum of both bacteria and fungi) usually occurs
between hours 14 and 20.  On average, the peak occurs at hour 20.  Given
that the brew does not go anaerobic, of course.  If the brew goes anaerobic,
that means that the rate of oxygen use (demand) by the bacteria and fungi
was greater than the rate of supply of oxygen by your aerators.  Control of
oxygen demand is generally through the amount of food put in, given that all
else is equal.

So you have to have ALL things right.  Then the typical brew can occur.

Which is why when V. Bess measured oxygen concentration at hours 0, 8, and
24 it was so ridiculous for her to then say she had the data proving that
the "tea brews" had stayed aerobic through the whole brew cycle.  The max
oxygen demand occurred during the 16 hours she didn't bother to measure
oxygen.

Anyway, fungi are attacked and consumed by anaerobic bacteria when oxygen
content drops below 6 ppm, or there abouts.  We have some great pictures of
fungal hyphae happily growing until the oxygen content drops too low, and
then, the ravening hordes of anaerobic bacteria attack and take the fungal
strands out!  You don't even know that those are fungal hyphae, they are so
buried in bacteria.  Only in oxygen below 6 ppm

So, low fungi are OFTEN the result of too low oxygen.  The fungi could have
been in the compost, but they are no longer in a tea that dropped low in
oxygen. They were consumed.

So, low fungi could be the result of several possible conditions:

1.  not in the compost to begin
2.  not extracted from the compost (fabric bag is a usual culprit; poor
movement of water through the compost, compaction of the compost in the
basket)
3.  no foods to feed the fungi (no soluble fungal foods in the compost, none
added in the tea brew)
4.  fungi killed by lack of aeration (anaerobic bacteria had a feast)
5.  fungi sliced and diced by pumps (there are centripetal pumps that don't
slice and dice much; don't ask me which they are, that was not my research
that figured that out)

What else did I forget?

Hope this helps -

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


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Message: 9
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 17:48:55 -0400
   From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
Subject: Re: california

Please check the SFI website.  Paul Wagner will be talking in California
sometime soon.  Check the wormgold web site.

I'm doing a one-day compost tea (nothing but tea) in mid-May at SFI in
Corvallis.

Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Hilversum, The Netherlands
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
www.soilfoodweb.com


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Message: 10
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:45:06 EDT
   From: Lmvine1@cs.com
Subject: Re: Typical brew

In a message dated 4/20/2003 5:47:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
soilfoodweb@aol.com writes:
> Anyway, fungi are attacked and consumed by anaerobic bacteria when oxygen
> content drops below 6 ppm, or there abouts.  We have some great pictures
of
> fungal hyphae happily growing until the oxygen content drops too low, and
> then, the ravening hordes of anaerobic bacteria attack and take the fungal
> strands out!  You don't even know that those are fungal hyphae, they are
so
> buried in bacteria.  Only in oxygen below 6 ppm

Thanks Elaine, this is interesting given the comment from SFI on my latest
tea report.
"Notes - lots of prots(FAC's) total fungi counts are from one lg piece, grow
n
in tea, covered with bacteria."
Underlining added for emphasis.

>From Elaine's comment above it sounds like the oxygen went low and the
bacteria ate the fungi.

Dan Lynch
Long Mountain Vineyard


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Message: 11
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 16:05:17 -0700
   From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas@tandjenterprises.com>
Subject: Re: Typical brew

Elaine,

So, if there is a high total fungi count but a low active fungi count after
24-30 hours of brewing does that mean not enough fungi food was in the brew?
Or could it be we ran out of  food and the active fungi are dying or going
dormant?

--Thomas  Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: soilfoodweb@aol.com
  To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 2:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Typical brew


  So, low fungi are OFTEN the result of too low oxygen.  The fungi could
have been in the compost, but they are no longer in a tea that dropped low
in oxygen. They were consumed.

  So, low fungi could be the result of several possible conditions:

  1.  not in the compost to begin
  2.  not extracted from the compost (fabric bag is a usual culprit; poor
movement of water through the compost, compaction of the compost in the
basket)
  3.  no foods to feed the fungi (no soluble fungal foods in the compost,
none added in the tea brew)
  4.  fungi killed by lack of aeration (anaerobic bacteria had a feast)
  5.  fungi sliced and diced by pumps (there are centripetal pumps that
don't slice and dice much; don't ask me which they are, that was not my
research that figured that out)

  What else did I forget?

  Hope this helps -

  Elaine Ingh

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Message: 12
   Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 15:20:22 -0800
   From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
Subject: Re: Typical brew

Gee, one strand?  What does that mean?  You got the Santa Beard fungal
growth.....does that mean only one was left in the tea as the rest were
devoured by bacteria or did you only get one out of the compost?

So, if you want to make a tea that won't go anaerobic, use less compost AND
lower quantities of nutrients, IMHO.

Good luck! Let us know what you do and how it comes out!

But let's continue. Does your low fungal number mean you had a bad tea?  I
don't think so. I look at the fungal numbers as being really important for
foliar coverage for disease suppression and not as important when it comes
to  foliar feeding and for soil drench.   Right or wrong?

Cheers,

jeff l

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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:08:08 -0700
   From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea

Further to my post below, yesterday I used 250 of the 400 gallons.  Some
I put on the floor of the chicken coop - by the end of the day this
reduced the ammonia odour by about half.  Some I put in the chickens
water - none have keeled over yet!  And the balance I put as a soil
drench on holly trees, about 25 gallons per tree (I don't have a sprayer
organized yet so I used the bucket of my tractor)

At 4pm yesterday I added 250 gallons of well water to the 150 gallons of
brew remaining.  Air temperature was 17C    After adding the water the
temp of the new mix was 15C.  I added about 12 lbs of alfalfa pellets
and 1 cup of mollasses.  This morning at 9am, 17 hours later, the air
temperature was 8C and the brew was at 18C with 10" of foam.  I have had
two small (250 watt) aquarium heaters running.  From a test with cold
water I know they only raise the water by about 2C so I can only assume
the balance of the water heat is coming from bacterial activity.

With getting this much activity from just alfalfa pellets and mollasses
I can't wait to see what happens when I start using compost and more
electric heat!

Is this normal to get bacterial activity from just alfalfa and mollasses?

Jason

Jason Austin wrote:

> I have just made my own brewer
>
> - 500 gallons - round tank with flat bottom.  Approx 5' diameter.
> - 1/2 hp Gast air pump
> - for aeration I ran a 1 1/2" sched 40 pipe into the tank, formed a
> cross at the bottom, and drilled a series of 1/16th holes along one
> edge of each leg of the cross.  It boils magnificently!
>
> I am waiting for a heater element to arrive so have been experimenting.
>
> First I tried water for 24 hours to test the air blower and some small
> aquarium heaters that I had been assured would heat the water.  The
> aquarium heaters only got the water temperature up 2 degrees C in 24
> hours.
>
> Then I tried 10lbs of alfalfa pellets in 400 gallons of water.
> After 18 hours there was a 5 degree C rise in the water temperature
> (still with the aquarium heaters) and 4" foam.
> After 24 hours (midday) both air temp and water temp had risen to 18
> degrees C - I added 1/2 cup of mollasses.
> After 36 hours (10pm) air temp had fallen to 11 degrees C but water
> temp was still at 18.  6" foam
> After 44 hours (6am) air temp down to 8 degrees C but water still at
> 18!    Now a pleasant healthy earthy smell around the brewer.
>
> The tank is under cover in my open tractor shed.  It is not insulated
> and is completely open at the top, so I must be losing heat, but
> despite that it has kept up at 18 degrees C.
>
> It seems to me there must be some considerable  bacterial action
> taking place even though I have no compost or activators.  So far only
> alfalfa pelets and mollasses.
>
> Jason






________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Robert Norsen <bnbrew@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Typical brew

Elaine - your analogy is in error.  Among Airforce people after landing ( at
home) the second thing they intended to do was to take their parachute off.
Food was way down the list. .    Bob

soilfoodweb@aol.com wrote:Since it was asked on the list serve, I'll answer,
even though the question was not directed to me.

A typical brew has a "lag time", which is a period of time that the
organisms are not growing, because they have to adjust to the new conditions
they find themselves in, and get geared up to reproduce.  Think of them
being just like tiny people.  If you get parachuted into a new country,
survival is usually first on your mind, finding a place to live, food, and
so forth are first on your mind, not reproduction.  Same with bacteria and
fungi.

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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 10:31:41 -0800
   From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
Subject: colloidal clay and rock phosphate

I know that rock phosphates are good for fungal growth.  My question is
whether to use the granular rock phosphate or the powdered stuff which is
mixed in with colloidal clay?  Anyone had any experience here?

    Thanks,

    Jeff L
    www.alaskahumus.com

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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:08:38 -0700
   From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> I know that rock phosphates are good for fungal growth.  My question is
> whether to use the granular rock phosphate or the powdered stuff which
> is mixed in with colloidal clay?  Anyone had any experience here?

1) Tennessee rock phosphate - slightly granular - best - is available
(Blount Feeds, Bethel, NC - Bill Blount) - P released
    quicker than Idaho rock phosphate and Florida RP

2) Idaho black rock phosphate - granular, OK - can be had in pelletized form
with adidifier for more rapid breakdown - small quantities
    available by mail order

3) Florida rock phosphate & Florida soft phosphate with colloidal clay -
both are very fine powder but still takes longer than
    any other naturally-occuring phosphate to break down and release P -
readily available by mail order

4) Carolina Black Rock Phosphate - not available - granular - is the very
best of all, more P and released quicker

You might be interested in the archives on composting and compost tea I am
putting together in the Agriculture Wiki:
AgWiki - Agriculture Wiki
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/agwiki/index.php/HomePage

COMPOST, COMPOST TEA and SOILFOODWEB
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/agwiki/index.php/COMPOST%2C%20COMPOST%20T
EA%20and%20SOILFOODWEB

sanet-mg list discussion on compost, compost tea and the soil food web by
Elaine Ingham, Gil Carandang and Steve Diver:
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech/agriculture/composting/compost+soilfoodwe
b+links+info2/index.html

LL
--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech




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________________________________________________________________________

Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 16:42:30 -0400
   From: laura_s@vaxxine.com
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate


>
> 4) Carolina Black Rock Phosphate - not
>available - granular - is the
>very
>best of all, more P and released
>quicker
>


Couldn't even find it by a websearch ? can you explain why it is the very
best ? for CT ?


Laura Sabourin
EcoVit Ecologically Sound Horticultural Products
Tea-riffic Aerobic Compost Tea and Acadian Seaplant Products
RR # 1
St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7
http://www.ecovit.ca
http://www.compost-tea.ca


________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 12:56:42 -0800
   From: "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@gardener.com>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate

Lawrence,

Thanks for the good sites on Rock Phosphate. Very useful.

I guess my question is whether the clay used in the powders is acceptable in
tea making....impacts etc?

Cheers,

Jeff

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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 18:17:48 -0700
   From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> Lawrence,
>
> Thanks for the good sites on Rock Phosphate. Very useful.
>
> I guess my question is whether the clay used in the powders is
> acceptable in tea making....impacts etc?

Well the soft (Florida rock) phosphate with colloidal clay is lower in P
than the rock phosphate
but releases P more rapidly. I don't know anything at all about the clay or
how it got mixed with the phosphate
or how it reacts with soil or how it would react in compost tea. How would
any other clay react in CT?
I'd guess that the clay in SPWCC, when added to CT, would represent a non
issue, based on what the clay consists of.
Maybe the proportions of clay to phosphate would be an issue, as in too much
clay for the CT for the amount of P that would be available.
Seriously though, I don't know whay it woudn't work just fine for what you
want to do. I would mix the rock phosphate or SPWCC with
other rock dusts, i.e. pond fines (often very fine mesh) and even perhaps
some New Jersey Greensand. What about a little wood ashes too?

1) On another note, I am interested in how one makes a lactobacillus culture
to use with/before/after IM or 24hrCT. I am aware of
a method of making a probiotic drink called Rejuvelac. You soak wheat
berries overnight, next day slightly grind dthem up and immerse in a
gallon or so of water - let stand at room temperature until it ferments and
has a slightly lemony/acid/carbonated flavor, and it is ready to
refrigerate and drink. It seems you could make large batches of this for use
in making CT for a soil drench. Wonder if this would be useful

2) Based on something Robert Verzola wrote in the sanet-mg list about making
IM tea starter from sticky rice and forest compost:
To quote Robert (and Allan Balliett):
<><><><><><><><><><>
On 26 Dec 2002 at 21:17, Allan Balliett wrote:

 > I've noticed that the Korean Natural Farming Movement uses
 > topless/bottomles 'boxes' of rice  that they leave sitting on forest
 > soil for several days as an innoculant for one of their EM-like
 > anaerobic brews. Is it practical for Aerobic CT makers to take
 > microbes from the forest without really disturbing the forest floor?
 > If so, what would be a practical way for US farmers to do so?

This is how we learned to do it, based on instructions from friends
who market EM locally. (Actually, "we" is my wife more than me, as
she mastered the whole thing and I was mostly a kibitzer.)

She used sticky rice, boiled as usual. She put the rice, still on the
pot where she boiled it, on the mini- (micro- actually) forest behind
our home. The pot was covered with cloth, then covered lightly with
dried leaves from the ground.

After several days, the rice was covered with what looked like
loosely fluffed cotton filaments. The beneficial fungi, I suppose.

Then she mixed a brew of water (boiled water, cooled down) and
brown sugar (organically processed) -- I can ask for the ratios later
if anyone is interested --  put it in a big clay pot, added the fluffy
material from the rice pot, covered the clay pot with cloth, and then
let it brew. This was supposed to be the "mother" liquid or starter. It
can be kept indefinitely by mixing a new brew of sugar solution and
adding spoonful or so of starter to it.

This is how EM is supposed to be made. The final product is sold
locally as some kind of soil, compost and foliar elixir (with a lot of
positive testimonies). It has been sprayed on chicken and hog
manure and these quickly lose their smell. In fact, I've visited a
place where the hog pen did not smell at all, because they say they
spray the EM regularly on the bedding.

It appears to me, however, from what I heard on this list, that this
would be anaerobic tea. I've never smelled it really carefully, just a
quick sniff, and I don't remember it stinking at all. Certainly, there
was no active aeration (no sprays or air bubbles for instance). It
can be done even where there is no electricity. (Important for us...)

My wife comes from a culture which still brews their own coconut-
based wine, banana-based vinegar, etc. so the process was familiar
to her.

I wonder if it might be better to optimize one brewing process for
the bacterial output, and optimize a separate brewing process for
the fungal output, and then spray the amounts indicated for the
ideal bacterial-to-fungi ratio?

Is there a simple test (smell again, perhaps?) to determine if the
brew is predominantly bacterial or fungal?

<....>

Roberto Verzola
Philippines
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Last Winter I took some leaf litter and compost off the ground in a wooded
area and placed it on top of
a small plastic container of leftover rice. I put this outdoors in a metal
barbecue grill away from light and rain.
This Spring I had a look at it and saw that the container was filled with a
soild cake of variously-colored
soft, slightly damp material and the leaf litter was still on top but had
become part of the mass. It had a strong
fungus smell, not particularly sweet (like tempeh is) and had patches of
what might have been mold and others that were a fine fuzz
that might have been bacterial growth. I speculated whether this material
could be used as starter to make even larger quantities
of fungal matter which could, in turn, be used to make large batches of
fungus-dominated compost that could be directly applied to garden
soil for enrichment. Could this become a procedure, basically  a dry rather
than a tea-oriented one, worth considering within an array of
methods used in a soil enrichment program?

Thanks for any feedback.

LL

--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech




________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________

Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 19:57:47 -0700
   From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <lfl@intrex.net>
Subject: Re: colloidal clay and rock phosphate

Jeff Lowenfels wrote:
> Lawrence,
>
> Fascinating post. What would have happened if you left the rice out
> uncovered? I know what grows in some of the stuff we leave in our rice
> cooker over the weekend.....

That's what Robert recommended - put it out in the elements uncovered in a
bottomless container on the ground
- which may be the better way to make the fungal cake. Still it was
interesting to see what would happen in
a dark area with no supplemental watering, only humidity and condensation
from inside the steel barrel of the BBQ grill.
Since RV's traditional methods is what is widely used one could assume that
a preponderance of beneficial fungi
would evolve in the starter material or substrate. Perhaps a different ratio
of bacteria/fungi grew in my dry,
over 90% aerobic culture, maybe even no bacteria at all though it occured to
me that over the duration the fungi eventually died and became
host for bacterial growth. Maybe the product of the dry culture would
contribute to the diverity of beneficial microorganisms in compost if
added.

LL
--
L.F.London
lfl@intrex.net
http://market-farming.com
http://www.ibiblio.org/ecolandtech




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Message: 11
   Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 09:57:49 +0800
   From: "Anthony" <boofq@wn.com.au>
Subject: Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea

jason,
1/16 holes will cause your tea to boil great, however they are probably to
big to diffuse enough O2, especially when they need it most. I did the same
thing and i wasnt getting enough O2 into it. I sourced some 0.4mm drill
bits- equivalent to about a 1/50th (you need a few as they tend to snap
pretty well). Also attached some of that seepage hose that have even smaller
holes. Still boils great, but the bubbles are just that much smaller! Even
when you switch it off it bubble like a bottle of mineral water for minutes!

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jason Austin
  To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 9:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea


  I have just made my own brewer

  - 500 gallons - round tank with flat bottom.  Approx 5' diameter.
  - 1/2 hp Gast air pump
  - for aeration I ran a 1 1/2" sched 40 pipe into the tank, formed a cross
at the bottom, and drilled a series of 1/16th holes along one edge of each
leg of the cross.  It boils magnificently!

  I am waiting for a heater element to arrive so have been experimenting.

  First I tried water for 24 hours to test the air blower and some small
aquarium heaters that I had been assured would heat the water.  The aquarium
heaters only got the water temperature up 2 degrees C in 24 hours.

  Then I tried 10lbs of alfalfa pellets in 400 gallons of water.
  After 18 hours there was a 5 degree C rise in the water temperature (still
with the aquarium heaters) and 4" foam.
  After 24 hours (midday) both air temp and water temp had risen to 18
degrees C - I added 1/2 cup of mollasses.
  After 36 hours (10pm) air temp had fallen to 11 degrees C but water temp
was still at 18.  6" foam
  After 44 hours (6am) air temp down to 8 degrees C but water still at 18!
Now a pleasant healthy earthy smell around the brewer.

  The tank is under cover in my open tractor shed.  It is not insulated and
is completely open at the top, so I must be losing heat, but despite that it
has kept up at 18 degrees C.

  It seems to me there must be some considerable  bacterial action taking
place even though I have no compost or activators.  So far only alfalfa
pelets and mollasses.

  Jason

  Jeff Lowenfels wrote:

    Jason,

    I have made both alfalfa and Kelp teas....using compost as well. I just
add powdered kelp or alfalfa meal to my teas.  Both add nutrients to the
tea, so you have to back off on other nutrients so the tea won't go
anaerobic.

    Cheers,

    Jeff


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Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 20:05:36 -0700
   From: Jason Austin <jason.austin@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea

Hi Anthony

Thanks for the tip.  I don't have a DO meter yet but I will check the
oxygen level soon.  I have about 60 holes which I thought would be
enough but the meter will be the judge!

Jason

Anthony wrote:

> jason,
> 1/16 holes will cause your tea to boil great, however they are
> probably to big to diffuse enough O2, especially when they need it
> most. I did the same thing and i wasnt getting enough O2 into it. I
> sourced some 0.4mm drill bits- equivalent to about a 1/50th (you need
> a few as they tend to snap pretty well). Also attached some of that
> seepage hose that have even smaller holes. Still boils great, but the
> bubbles are just that much smaller! Even when you switch it off it
> bubble like a bottle of mineral water for minutes!
>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Jason Austin <mailto:jason.austin@shaw.ca>
>     To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com <mailto:compost_tea@yahoogroups.com>
>     Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 9:44 PM
>     Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Alfalfa tea and Kelp tea
>
>     I have just made my own brewer
>
>     - 500 gallons - round tank with flat bottom.  Approx 5' diameter.
>     - 1/2 hp Gast air pump
>     - for aeration I ran a 1 1/2" sched 40 pipe into the tank, formed
>     a cross at the bottom, and drilled a series of 1/16th holes along
>     one edge of each leg of the cross.  It boils magnificently!
>
>     I am waiting for a heater element to arrive so have been
>     experimenting.
>
>     First I tried water for 24 hours to test the air blower and some
>     small aquarium heaters that I had been assured would heat the
>     water.  The aquarium heaters only got the water temperature up 2
>     degrees C in 24 hours.
>
>     Then I tried 10lbs of alfalfa pellets in 400 gallons of water.
>     After 18 hours there was a 5 degree C rise in the water
>     temperature (still with the aquarium heaters) and 4" foam.
>     After 24 hours (midday) both air temp and water temp had risen to
>     18 degrees C - I added 1/2 cup of mollasses.
>     After 36 hours (10pm) air temp had fallen to 11 degrees C but
>     water temp was still at 18.  6" foam
>     After 44 hours (6am) air temp down to 8 degrees C but water still
>     at 18!    Now a pleasant healthy earthy smell around the brewer.
>
>     The tank is under cover in my open tractor shed.  It is not
>     insulated and is completely open at the top, so I must be losing
>     heat, but despite that it has kept up at 18 degrees C.
>
>     It seems to me there must be some considerable  bacterial action
>     taking place even though I have no compost or activators.  So far
>     only alfalfa pelets and mollasses.
>
>     Jason
>



[This message contained attachments]



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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 14:28:04 +0800
   From: "TaChung Huang" <tachung_h@yahoo.com>
Subject: The usage of CaO


Elaine:
How would I affect or hurt the micro-organism population if I apply CaO
(Calcium Oxide) to the soil? I suppose that mixing water (H2O) with CaO
would release a lot of heat. Would this kind of heat destroy
micro-organism?

I want to use CaO to supplement the Ca to the soil.




Regards
TaChung Huang (¶À¤j©¾)

-----Original Message-----
From: lmvine [mailto:Lmvine1@cs.com]
Sent: Monday, April 21, 2003 9:01 PM
To: compost_tea@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Typical brew


--- In compost_tea@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Lowenfels" <jeff@g...>
wrote:
> Gee, one strand?  What does that mean?  You got the Santa Beard
fungal growth.....does that mean only one was left in the tea as the
rest were devoured by bacteria or did you only get one out of the
compost?

Jeff, I take it to mean that there was only one strand in the ml or
so of tea analyzed.  I expect the "SC beard" survived but most or
all was attacked by anerobic bacteria due to low oxygen at some
point in the brewing process.

> But let's continue. Does your low fungal number mean you had a bad
tea?  I don't think so. I look at the fungal numbers as being really
important for foliar coverage for disease suppression and not as
important when it comes to  foliar feeding and for soil drench.
Right or wrong?
>
> Cheers, jeff l

It is my understanding that I want fungal dominated tea for a soil
drench on my grapes.  Is that correct Elaine?

Jeff, thanks for your analysis.

Dan



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