Re: [compost_tea] Re: Different kinds of soil tests - SFI and NPK

From: David Loring <dloring3_at_cox.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:15:43 -0800

Hi Yield - I'm a bit of a skeptic myself so I see some of your points, espe=
cially the problem of a cult mindset entering the dialog. The serious peop=
le in the business for the long term have paid dues just like any other bus=
iness startup. This is a cult only for those who close their eyes, be they=
 on the inside looking out or on the outside looking in. I wish we had mor=
e numbers and I've paid my share to make them available but they will come =
in time. But don't let a lack of numbers at this point keep you away from =
seeing the numerous documented successes with these biologically rich prepa=
rations. If you've ever added manure, compost or wood chips to a soil to i=
mprove its quality then you have gone down the same road without any real n=
umbers other than NPK and had, I'd bet, good success. Also if you've grown=
 all the high yield crops you've mentioned without using significant organi=
c amendments then I'd guess you may be responsible for a bit of nitrates in=
 your local groundwater which is a fact well documented and costing all of =
us millions to clean up. We need lots of tools to grow healthy crops. Few=
 on this list who provide food beyond their own table are against the use o=
f fertilizers in appropriate amounts, this is not a cult but an emerging te=
chnology.

Dave - Escondido, CA
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: hi_yield1
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 4:02 AM
  Subject: [compost_tea] Re: Different kinds of soil tests - SFI and NPK


  Chris,
  I got the prices from SFI US price list. If you were to do both soil
  compost and tea it would add up to well over 600 dollars that would
  also include the Interpretation/Consulting fee. That's if your tea
  samples reach the lab soon enough to get a valid reading. And no I'm
  not a micro-biologist just like the many other members of this group.
  Yes there is alot I do not understand about the soil food web. But
  after many many years of gardening I know what has and hasn't worked
  for me. If you can't grow it(culture it) then how can you possibly
  fully understand it?? Yes I'm a bit of a skeptic but I'm also entilted
  to my opinion. Though it may not be a popular one at times. Because of
  the line of business I'm in I have talked to many first time tea
  makers and after only one season most are giving it up. They say the
  results were not worth the time the money and the effort they had to
  put into it. People making (posting) claims of total disease and bug
  suppression and growing world record giant veggies all because of
  their CT is only hurting the cause!! Beware of setting the bar to
  high!! Be a little more realistic in your approach. I have heard
  people refer to CT as cult gardening. NOT GOOD!! Take care hi-yield.

  --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "chriscreid" <reidchris_at_e...>
  wrote:
> --- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "hi_yield1" <hi_yield1_at_y...>
> wrote:
> > Chris,
> hi_yield1 said: But to pay $250.00 to $600.00
> > for a test that gives you a number or numbers without any real
> > correlation or true understanding between what a plants acutally
> needs and what the acutal benfits are in my mind, just numbers.
> These kind of test are for someone looking to bolster up a product
> that they are trying to sell passing their cost onto the customer.
>
> 99 perecnt of the soil food web is not understood and cannot be
> cultured in a lab and I quote.
>
> > Again BUYER BEWARE of buying something you may already have in
> > sufficient numbers, what ever that means. When in doubt common
> sense practical approach works best.Take care hi_yield
>
> REPLY: From my perspective, you are not being careful to hew to
> facts. I think maybe that you don't really understand this stuff.
> I have no problem with people not understanding, which is why I
  have
> taken the time to respond with facts to what you have said. So if
> you don't understand, ask questions. Better than attacking.
>
> BUYER BEWARE: Warning -- hi_yield1 is talking out of his hat.
  Some
> of his points are good, but he is not well informed regarding
> compost tea and he is willing to try to sway people to accept his
> prejudices, rather than examine the facts and make their own fact-
> based decisions.
>
> We are all adults on this list, except maybe (chronologically)
> Oliver Hauver, but he asks questions and can clearly think for
> himself, as well. Who is charging $600 "for a test"? I know of no
> one. Second, there is MUCH in agriculture and the natural world
> that is not fully understood. ONe wants to see that no one is
> overstating the case as regards compost tea or any technology.
> There have been times when the case has been overstated or glossed
> over and I have spoken up. In my limited experience being exposed
> to Elaine and her thinking, Elaine Ingham is usually the first
> person to delineate the limits of what research has and has not
> shown to date. It is she who points out how much can't be cultured
> in a lab. Of course, SFI does not culture ANYTHING in a lab.
> That's why SFI developed the approach it uses and does assays.
  That
> means they count what is actually there, in the tea. Just count.
> Don't grow anything. no plates of agar.
>
> The notion that the tests don't correlate to what a plant actually
> needs or the possible benefits is a little confusing, given that
  the
> tests are for soil biology, not telling anyone what nutrition to
  put
> on their plants. So, if somebody has a prejudice about compost tea
> that is not fact based, they're handing it to you and you're
> accepting it without using your brain to make sure they know what
> they're talking about, you risk being duped like you're so scared
> people on this list will be duped. Look for people who will give
> you facts, not prejudices. That's what's necessary to keep growing
> in high yields, not p*ssing contests among agricultural agents and
> compost tea users.
>
> Now, about people using tests "just to sell something". How many
> products have you ever bought where it was really hard to find info
> that was truly valuable before you bought it? I'm trying to buy a
> refrigerator right now. At Sears, they all look alike inside with
> about 3 shelf configuration variations. There's a little energy
> star tag that tells you how much it will cost a year to run the
> thing, the number of cu ft and that's it. Am I going to decide how
> to spend $500 - $800 based on plastic shelves? No.
>
> If people are doing tests just to sell their product, then we're
> ahead of the game. I wish the refrigerator folks were doing that.
> What is critical is that the test is rigged, is not crooked. Tests
> for products are a good thing, especially honest, meaningful tests.
> I've already expressed my belief that this industry would benefit
> from independent testing, but any testing is better than no testing.
>
> If any of you would-be compost tea users are approached by any
> compost tea user who says your compost heap doesn't have in it what
> their tea does, ask to see the tea test and look at the numbers,
  and
> ask how they know what's in your compost pile. Compost is a
> completely valid approach to soil health. Compost tea has an added
> advantage of being able to be used for foliar applications, and it
> is logistically easier for large farms. Examine carefully what you
> are trying to do and the best way to do it. If compost tea fits,
> great. If it doesn't, more power to you.
>
> But, hiyield1, to cast aspersions on all uses of compost tea
  because
> you have made a personal decision that if it's not right for you it
> can't be right for anybody doesn't give the rest of the world
  credit
> for being able to solve their own problems.
>
> You've been given space to have your say, and people have been
> patient with your anonymity (no one else on the list does this, by
> the way) and your deviating from the protocol this group agrees to
> follow, which is to stick to facts and not delve into anecdotal
> evidence or hearsay, and when anecdotes or hearsay or non-facts are
> presented, to state that's the case. You are not making it clear
  to
> yourself how much of your argument is just that: argument. I'm
> looking high and low for facts, but they are few and far between.
> Mostly you have a bone to pick. How about getting with the program
> or give it a rest?
>
> Just the facts, man.
>
> Chris Reid


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Received on Tue Nov 25 2003 - 02:21:17 EST

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