[compost_tea] Held Tea (Lacto Bacilli)

From: Jerry Cunningham <Jerry.Cunningham_at_CoyoteCreekFarm.org>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:09:42 -0600 (Central Standard Time)

 Dennis, et al;

The CT is in it's fourth day of holding. I checked it with the microscope
yesterday
and there is no movement; however, it does not smell. Since it is a very
expensive brew
I hope to use it. There is 5 gallons of Humic Acid, about $100 worth.

Here's my question for the group: Can I start over with the "dead tea" as m=
y
"water"?
Just add fresh compost and extract into the held tea?

Or should I apply the "dead tea" to put out the humic acid, and calcium
carbonate,
and then follow that immediately with a fresh batch of tea?

Could the calcium carbonate, 10 lbs. in 500 gallons have lowered the pH
enough to
casue shock to the microbes?

Thanks for your help.

Jeremiah
 
-------Original Message-------
 
From: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Date: 11/02/04 18:16:55
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: [SPAM] [compost_tea] Digest Number 883
 
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
 
Topics in this digest:
 
      1. Re: Re: fungal tea, vineyards and mildew
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      2. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      3. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
      4. Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: "Kirk Leonard" <kirkleon_at_open.org>
      5. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      6. Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      7. Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      8. Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
      9. RE: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
     10. Re: EM leachate "tea"
           From: "Vida na Terra" <vida-na-terra_at_oninet.pt>
     11. Lacto Bacill
           From: "Jerry Cunningham" <Jerry.Cunningham_at_CoyoteCreekFarm.org>=

     12. Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
     13. Re: Lacto Bacill
           From: "dkemnitz2000" <dkemnitz2000_at_yahoo.com>
     14. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas_at_tandjenterprises.com>
     15. Powdery Mildew remission with ACT
           From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
     16. Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
           From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
     17. Re: EM leachate "tea"
           From: David Anderson <squtch_at_gmail.com>
     18. My NZ Visit
           From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
     19. Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
           From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
     20. Re: Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
           From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
     21. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
     22. Re: Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
           From: butch ragland <wilddog_202_at_yahoo.com>
     23. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas_at_tandjenterprises.com>
     24. Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
           From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
     25. Re: My NZ Visit
           From: "bkquinn" <bkquinn_at_xtra.co.nz>
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:17:22 -0500
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: fungal tea, vineyards and mildew
 
Hi Terence -
 
Thos esure soulnd like the right titles! You found them! thanks!
 
--
Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Jerome, Idaho
SFI South Africa
http://www.soilfoodweb.com
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 00:34:33 -0500
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
 
Ted wrote:
  I have found no one who uses any kind of root enhancement materials such
as VAMs to enhance root growth and plant health but I will keep asking.
 
As far as I know, there has never been any report that inoculation with VAM
benefitted brassica that cannot become mycorrrhizal, and there are reports
that VAM from other plants harmed some brassica species. As with most
things biological, there are exceptions to this, but I am not the best
person to ask about the exceptions, because people like Mike Amaranthus, or
Bob Linderman, or Mike Allen, are more up on these interactions than I am.=

 
 
Ted wrote:
But I need something cleared up. Are we using exudates as a term for any
exuded material from the plant?
 
That is the technical definition of exudate.
 
Ted wrote:
For example, there has been a lot of research in regards to sap rising from
capillary action in the leaf vs. root pressure. (I am oversimplifying here
for brevity.) Sometimes the root pressure in certain plants becomes too muc=
h
and the plants exude sap from the bark and leaf surfaces. I am unsure if
this is the same material or process involved with exudates sent out throug=
h
roots and leaves that communicate with bacteria and fungi for feeding.
 
No, this is not the same process. Sap being expressed from a wound is a
function of turgor pressure, I believe. Exudates are released from roots
through a different process, but we are getting out of my area of expertise
in being able to tell you what exactly the differences are.
 
Ted wrote:
I thought the exudates were selective and not general and were sent out in
response to plant needs.
 
Through many, many years of selection, plants that release exudates that
enahnce the growth of beneficial organisms typically survived better, and
were less stressed. There has therefore been selection for exudate release
by plants that enhance beneficials.
 
Ted worte:
Elaine:
Are you stating that the nature of any exudate (exuded material) from the
plant is inhibitive because the materials that make up the plant are natura=
l
herbicide/fungicies?
 
No, I am not saying that. In the case of brassicas, SOME of them make
glycosinolates which when decomposed by certain bacteria, produce compounds
that are iso-thiocyanates. Sudan grass makes a MITC, for example, so it is
not just broccoli, or caulifkower, or cole crops that do this. Again, it i=
s
possibly related to actinobacterial growth in the rhizosphere. So, is it
the plant that makes the glycosinolate, or the bacteria? Or are the
bacteria just using the glycosinolate made by the plant, and both the
exudate and bacteria have to be present in order for the inh8ibitory
compound to be made? The latter seems to be the case.
 
But there are many other compounds that roots release that are not
inhibitory in of and by themselves. But, do those exudates select for
bacterial or fungal growth that will inhibit other organisms? Maybe. Do
all of the exudates made select for beenficial organisms which may inhibit
the growth of "bad guys". Hum......
 
I feel safest in saying, it could be the case, but it doesn't HAVE TO BE th=
e
case. Some exudates may just be neutral,m and get used by neutral bacteria
or fungi. Or maybe the bacterial or fungal species that are supposed to be
present aren't, and then that exudate doesn't get used by the beneficial
organism(s), and inhibition doesn't occur.
 
Lots yet to know.
 
--
Elaine Ingham
President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
SFI Corvallis, OR
SFI Port Jefferson, NY
SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
SFI Culiacan, Mexico
SFI Jerome, Idaho
SFI South Africa
http://www.soilfoodweb.com
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:07:49 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
So, is it the plant that makes the glycosinolate, or the bacteria? Or are
the bacteria just using the glycosinolate made by the plant, and both the
exudate and bacteria have to be present in order for the inh8ibitory
compound to be made? The latter seems to be the case.
 
But there are many other compounds that roots release that are not
inhibitory in of and by themselves. But, do those exudates select for
bacterial or fungal growth that will inhibit other organisms? Maybe. Do
all of the exudates made select for beenficial organisms which may inhibit
the growth of "bad guys". Hum......
 
I feel safest in saying, it could be the case, but it doesn't HAVE TO BE th=
e
case. Some exudates may just be neutral,m and get used by neutral bacteria
or fungi. Or maybe the bacterial or fungal species that are supposed to be
present aren't, and then that exudate doesn't get used by the beneficial
organism(s), and inhibition doesn't occur.
 
Lots yet to know.
 
--
Elaine Ingham
 
 
Well, this is similar to my understanding. Yes, still a lot to know. I wa=
s
curious in regards to your statements about Brassica exudates being
suppressive. I too think it is more closely tied with enzymatic action of
the bacteria but have no data to substantiate that. Fungi are a different
thing because they tend to be saporific. So if there is something in the
plant that inhibits decomposition by fungi, that would be interesting. Als=
o
 the bacteria involved with that interaction would be of interest. I know
of the use of Kale(s) as an antibacterial/fungal and have tried some tea
batches with small amounts of dried brussel sprout leaves and tested for
fungal suppression. So I brewed a batch and tested for fungi then added th=
e
dried and crushed brussel sprout leaves and tested again. I did notice a
lessening of biomass. However, because I added the leaves after I tested
for biomass, the loss could have been a result of the extra time in the
brewer with a given amount of O2.
 
So, I can't say definitively that brassicae plants inhibit certain
bacteria/fungi and VAMs even though there is plenty of anecdotal evidence
that all brassicae seem to inhibit certain bacteria and fungi similar to an
astringent. Could I possibly be any more confusing?
 
Ted Peterson
EW/SOE
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 11:51:36 -0800
   From: "Kirk Leonard" <kirkleon_at_open.org>
Subject: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
I sure do like it when Doc E gets a vacation. 10/27 digest was rich with=

new information and perspective. Thank you, Elaine. Saved until today to=

take it in and have some questions, maybe couple corrections? Many snips=

from original messages.
 
> From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
> Subject: Re: Re: Tea and powdery mildew
>
> In trials with compost tea, Trichoderma was added to the compost tea.
> Just a teaspoon of T-22 was added to 2000 L of brew in a standard
ACT-brewing
> machine, using 2.5 liter fish hydrolysate, 2.5 liter kelp, and 20 kg
compost.
> If my calculations were correct, that is 500 gal of water, 1 gal fish, 1=

> pound kelp, and about 10 pounds compost. Good, aerated, fungal compost,=

tested
> routinely to allow us to know that the compost is always fungal.
 
Is 20 kg compost to 10 pounds a typo? I can imagine 20 liters of compost=

being 10 pounds, but 20 kg is 44 pounds last I checked... I dislike chasing=

numbers but this confuses me.
 
> 25 liters of ACT/HA (5 gal/ac) was applied to half the area, the normal=

> conventional application to the other half of the area.
 
I think this might be a mistake. 25 liters is a little over 6 1/2 gallons,=

a hectare is about 2.5 acres. Running these numbers out, this would be les=
s
than 3 gallons per acre, which speaks well of the results but doesn't make=

number sense. Please set me straight on this. Seems like 5 gals/ac should=

be closer to 50 liters/hectare?
 
And on "metabolites" - a completely different subject - a wonderful word bu=
t
still a fuzzy concept to me...
 
> From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
> Subject: Re: How do they do it?
>
> All organisms need adequate water in order to live. In soil, the
organisms
> seek out water-films, which are held on the surfaces of the aggregates an=
d
seek
> out pores of proper size filled partly or fully, with water.
>
> Dry products can actually hold significant water, and if stored properly,=

> will maintain adequate moisture to keep the organisms in a low level of=

activity.
>
> Many other products are dried to below the "wilting point" for any
organism.
> In that case, the organisms HAVE TO BE in a dormant form. That means
spores,
> dormant stages, dauer larvae, cysts, etc.
>
> Many organisms in soil require several days to weeks to move into those=

> dormant stages, and many soil orgnaisms do not produce a dormant stage
that we
> know. They may make dormant stages, but we haven't connected them to the=

active
> stage yet. More to learn.
 
Ok, this is probably Microbiology 101, but I have to ask to make a mental=

connection about metabolites, which I have taken to mean the dead bodies of=

soil critters, effectively, containing soluble nutrients, chemicals and
minerals readily accessible for nutrient purposes, for both plants and othe=
r
soil organisms.
 
Organisms are either active, dormant, or dead, right? If you haven't seen=

transitions from (potentially) dormant to active, this probably means they=

were dead, ie fully decomposed and ready to go again, right? Are these
metabolites?
 
> As Kirk says, its not just a right, it is a requirement of citizens in a=

> democracy to express their opinions.
 
Strongly agree, but actually, I used a variant of a quote from Gunter Grass=
:
"The job of citizens is to keep their mouths open."
 
I hope everybody votes and we have a new US president Wednesday. The
prospect bodes better for aerated compost tea, and all natural "teas," I
believe.
 
Kirk
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:55:09 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
It's clear we have a great deal more to learn.
 
But it does seem clear that trying to grow a plant that needs mycorrhizal=

fungi to suppress disease, or to obtain adequate nutrition AFTER you grow a=

brassica or cole or kale crop is not a wise idea.
 
UNLESS you add back a mycorrhizal inoculum.
 
But, you then have to make sure that you have done something to chew up the=

exudates that the brassica may have produced, or the biology that the
brassica
may have produced.
 
The easiest way to do that is to use compost or compost tea to establish th=
e
organisms, and chew up the toxic materials that might be there. Several
applications are typically needed to establish the full diversity, because
the
toxics kill lots of the critters with each application, until such time as
the
toxics are finally chewed up, and the foodweb can be established.
 
So start applying the compost or tea in the fall, so the soil is in shape b=
y
spring.
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:35:21 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
In a message dated 11/1/2004 11:59:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkleon_at_open.org writes:
Is 20 kg compost to 10 pounds a typo? I can imagine 20 liters of compost=

being 10 pounds, but 20 kg is 44 pounds last I checked... I dislike chasing=

numbers but this confuses me.
One kg is less than a pound. 1 pound is the same as 2.21 kg.
 
Or you can multiply the number of kg you have by 0.45 to get pounds.
 
Aren't conversions fun? Drives me crazy. I always have to have someone
double check my math, and even then, I'm not always really positive I got i=
t
right. But, I can check myself by thinking about hte fact that a pound is
much
more than a kg, as long as you aren't changing materials.
 
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:39:33 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
In a message dated 11/1/2004 11:59:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkleon_at_open.org writes:
And on "metabolites" - a completely different subject - a wonderful word bu=
t
still a fuzzy concept to me...
Metabolites are any material made by an physiologically active organism. A=

product of metabolism.
 
Which means a metabolite could be just about anything organic, since all
organic matter is the result of organism processing.
 
So what use is the word? Applied specifically, it is useful to denote a
material that results from organism processing.
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:53:32 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
 
Kirk wrote:
Ok, this is probably Microbiology 101, but I have to ask to make a mental=

connection about metabolites, which I have taken to mean the dead bodies of=

soil critters, effectively,
 
No, metabolites are not the dead bodies of critters. You could quibble
about
the dead bodies being a product of organism metabolism, but we don't really=

mean that when we use the term metabolite. Organisms are the things
producing
metabolites. Organisms aren't metabolites.
 
 
Kirk worte:
Organisms are either active, dormant, or dead, right? If you haven't seen=

transitions from (potentially) dormant to active, this probably means they
were
dead, ie fully decomposed and ready to go again, right? Are these
metabolites?
 
There is a difference between something being dead, but not yet decomposed,=

and actually being decomposed.
 
We can't often tell if something is truly dead, but not yet decomposed,
versus something that isn't dead, but dormant. In humans, for example, we
have
that problem - what if someone is suffering certain kinds of diseases, wher=
e
metabolism is pretty much shut down, breathing is minimal, respiration is
minimal,
pulse is nearly non-existent, but the person is in fact, still alive and
resuscitatable? People who fall into icy waters can go into that protectiv=
e
condition, for example. How do you tell truly dead versus in that kind of=

dormancy?
 
A problem. We have the same problem with microbes. But, regardless, the=

organisms, human or otherwise, are not metabolites. They are still
organisms; if
they look like organisms, they are organisms, until they decompose enough=

that we can tell they are decomposing.
 
And then, the decomposition products from the organisms doing the
decomposing
of the dead organism are metabolites. The partially decomposed dead
organism
is still organism biomass, but doesn't get counted as anything except
perhaps
organic matter, since it's in transition from being one kind of organism, t=
o
becoming another organism, plus metabolites.
 
Completely confused yet? Or did that help?
 
 
> As Kirk says, its not just a right, it is a requirement of citizens in a=

> democracy to express their opinions.
 
Strongly agree, but actually, I used a variant of a quote from Gunter Grass=
:
"The job of citizens is to keep their mouths open."
 
Wasn't my paraphrase close enough? The original is still the best, and
thank
you for giving us the correct quote. Grin!!!!!
 
In this close an election, everyone needs to add their vote to the total.=

Please get out and add your voice. Or number two pencil marks....
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:54:25 -0800
   From: "Tom Jaszewski" <tom_at_livesoil.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
Reverse those numbers and you've got it
 
 
 
http://annica.in-cyberspace.net/en/lbs_kg.html
 
 
 
kg=2.21lbs.
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com [mailto:soilfoodweb_at_aol.com]
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:35 PM
To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
 
 
In a message dated 11/1/2004 11:59:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkleon_at_open.org writes:
 
Is 20 kg compost to 10 pounds a typo? I can imagine 20 liters of compost=

being 10 pounds, but 20 kg is 44 pounds last I checked... I dislike chasing=

numbers but this confuses me.
 
One kg is less than a pound. 1 pound is the same as 2.21 kg.
 
 
 
Or you can multiply the number of kg you have by 0.45 to get pounds.
 
 
 
Aren't conversions fun? Drives me crazy. I always have to have someone
double check my math, and even then, I'm not always really positive I got i=
t
right. But, I can check myself by thinking about hte fact that a pound is=

much more than a kg, as long as you aren't changing materials.
 
 
 
 
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
 
 
 
 
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[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:23:11 -0000
   From: "Vida na Terra" <vida-na-terra_at_oninet.pt>
Subject: Re: EM leachate "tea"
 
Dear Friends,
 
This company in the UK makes anaerobic compost with EM
 
http://www.environmentalcomposting.co.uk
 
On this site they explain why this process, etc...
 
Regards
Joao
 
 
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________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:36:54 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
   From: "Jerry Cunningham" <Jerry.Cunningham_at_CoyoteCreekFarm.org>
Subject: Lacto Bacill
 
 
First time post
Long time reader
 
I am interested in information on lacto bacilli.
 
By way of introduction, I have two 275 gallon brew tanks, Bob O-Laters. My=

mentor, friend, is Betsy Ross in ranching and ACT production, I am an
“E-Devotee”, with informal pardons to Dr. Ingham. She taught Betsy and =
Betsy
is teaching me the arts of ranching and ACT production. I have also been to=

two of Dr. Inghams classes. I choose to amplify on words spoken in behalf o=
f
Elaine, in Austin at our Texas Tee-Off, by Steve Bridges, president and
prime mover of the Texas Organic Farmers and Gardners Association. Steve
said words to the effect that Elaine Ingham will be appreciated in history=

as a groundbreaking figure in the furthering of knowledge, applied, in soil=

biology and soil chemistry, proven through doing.
 
This work is by is by nature, heuristic. Example: I am a Farmer. I just got=

off my tractor, putting down winter grass seeds. Tomorrow, on top of that=

goes my own "custom" brew. I am not going to write a paper on this, or try=

to 'prove' that what I did is 'repeatable.' We are more artists than
scientists. I will know by doing, and observing, and improving; this is the=

heuristic approach to becoming more skilled in the brewing and application=

of Aereted Compost Tea (ACT), all that I must say, "In my humble opinion."=

 
Now, I would appreciate some basics of the role of lacto bacilli in compost=

tea and in soil and plant nutrition, if any. Lacto bacilli is being use mor=
e
and more widely in prepared foods, from energy-bars to crackers.
 
Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.
 
PS: It rained 1.5 inches overnight, and is still coming down, so I will get=

to practice “holding” my ACT for a few days until I can get into my pas=
ture.
 
Jerry Cunningham
Coyote Creek Farm
13431 Klaus Lane
Elgin, Texas 78621
512-940-6523
Jerry.Cunningham_at_CoyoteCreekFarm.org
www.CoyoteCreekFarm.org
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:02:30 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
Right, 1 pound = 454. grams
 
I had it backwards. Conversions drive me nuts, as I think I've pointed out=

before. I messed up. It's why I ask people to check my conversions.
 
So, 20 kg of compost is 20,000 grams.
20,000 divided by 450 (close enough) would be 44 pounds.
 
So, that's the amount of compost in that one recipe, in a 2000 L, or 500 ga=
l

tank.
 
With good compost, you could go as low as 15 pounds in 500 gal. The 44
pounds seems excessive to me.
 
Given the tea brewer you have, it is still best to work out the amount of=

compost to be used, based on your tea machine. The amount of foods should
also
still be based on the machine being used.
 
The manufacturer should do that testing, and tell you what amount of good=

compost to use, and the amounts of foods to use, given the design of the te=
a
maker.
 
If you build your own tea maker, then you have to figure these things out
for
yourself, based on your machine.
----------
The conversion from 5 gal/ac to L/HA, the value should be 50L/HA. Kirk was=

correct on that too.
 
When spraying, it is best to determine how much tea is needed to cover the=

leaf surfaces, based on your SPRAYER unit. Application rates are relative
to
the equipment you have, and how good the tea is that you make.
 
Poor compost? Better put 44 pounds, or 20 kg, in the tea basket.
Good compost? 15 pounds, or 32 kg will do.
 
Good tea? You can use 2 gal per ac.
Not-so-good tea? Better use 5 gal per ac.
 
These values give you an idea of the range. Sorry for the mental burps wit=
h
the conversions, though.
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 00:33:12 -0000
   From: "dkemnitz2000" <dkemnitz2000_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Lacto Bacill
 
 
Hello Jerry, Farmin' is great, eh? I'm a wanna be farmer(in other
words I need to sell something from the farm at a profit). I wanted
to sell baked goods from the wheat I grow But certainly haven't
gotten that done yet. I've got 45 acres or so of farm ground with
little time to farm it. I grew a lot of weeds last summer. In 2005 I
will be able to disc as I got the disc fixed last month and the
tractor that pulls it now has a clutch..So I got some wheat planted
and ACT'd which will at least keep the weeds down in
2005. I'm replying to see how the ACT "holding" is
going as you referred to it? Are you going to apply it on planted
ground which is going to be muddy for several days? Dennis Kemnitz
in KS
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Jerry Cunningham"
<Jerry.Cunningham_at_C...> wrote:
>
> First time post
> Long time reader
>
> I am interested in information on lacto bacilli.
>
> By way of introduction, I have two 275 gallon brew tanks, Bob O-
Laters. My
> mentor, friend, is Betsy Ross in ranching and ACT production, I am
an
> "E-Devotee", with informal pardons to Dr. Ingham. She taught Betsy
and Betsy
> is teaching me the arts of ranching and ACT production. I have
also been to
> two of Dr. Inghams classes. I choose to amplify on words spoken in
behalf of
> Elaine, in Austin at our Texas Tee-Off, by Steve Bridges,
president and
> prime mover of the Texas Organic Farmers and Gardners Association.
Steve
> said words to the effect that Elaine Ingham will be appreciated in
history
> as a groundbreaking figure in the furthering of knowledge,
applied, in soil
> biology and soil chemistry, proven through doing.
>
> This work is by is by nature, heuristic. Example: I am a Farmer. I
just got
> off my tractor, putting down winter grass seeds. Tomorrow, on top
of that
> goes my own "custom" brew. I am not going to write a paper on
this, or try
> to 'prove' that what I did is 'repeatable.' We are more artists
than
> scientists. I will know by doing, and observing, and improving;
this is the
> heuristic approach to becoming more skilled in the brewing and
application
> of Aereted Compost Tea (ACT), all that I must say, "In my humble
opinion."
>
> Now, I would appreciate some basics of the role of lacto bacilli
in compost
> tea and in soil and plant nutrition, if any. Lacto bacilli is
being use more
> and more widely in prepared foods, from energy-bars to crackers.
>
> Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.
>
> PS: It rained 1.5 inches overnight, and is still coming down, so I
will get
> to practice "holding" my ACT for a few days until I can get into
my pasture.
>
> Jerry Cunningham
> Coyote Creek Farm
> 13431 Klaus Lane
> Elgin, Texas 78621
> 512-940-6523
> Jerry.Cunningham_at_C...
> www.CoyoteCreekFarm.org
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:46:37 -0800
   From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas_at_tandjenterprises.com>
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
Ahhhh...
 
But back to the original question... can Brassica be coplanted with
mycorrhizal plants and not have the Brassica kill off the AM fungi on the
mycorrhizal plants? RESEARCH papers indicate they can be coplanted in
certain situations. Several research papers even indicate that brassica ca=
n
be benefited by being in the presence of endomycorrhiza fungi even though
the brassica are not colonized. There are a few research papers that also
show certain Brassica are or can be colonized by endomycorrhiza fungi (see
more examples below). We should keep in mind that the Brassica family
covers a fair number of plants and everything MAY NOT be equal among those
plants. For example, just because I have found that certain brassica plant=
s
can be colonized by endomycorrhiza, that does not mean that ALL brassica
plants can be colonized. I posted one research finding earlier that said
if the mycorrhizal plants and the brassica plants were planted at the same
time, there was no problem for the AM fungi. It would be interesting to se=
e
if that would hold true with a variety of different brassica vegetable
plants. In that same document, if the Brassica were planted 30 days in
advance, then the AM fungi was inhibited in its colonization of the
mycorrhizal plant roots. These tests were conducted with the addition of
endomycorrhiza fungi to the mycorrhizal plants.
 
Regarding a common red radish (a brassica member I think) we were able to
plant radishes this year in the highest temperatures in summer (3 rd week o=
f
July with daily temps around 98 F) and sprayed them weekly with our Microbe
Tea with Yucca added and they grew in to be nice and crispy and well formed=
.
 They weren't woody or super hot and they didn't bolt as is common for
radishes planted in hot weather.
 
Here's a research paper extract that talks about exudates from Brassica....=

                                =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
----------
VIERHEILIG H; OCAMPO JA. 1991. ROLE OF ROOT EXTRACT AND VOLATILE SUBSTANCES
OF NONHOST PLANTS ON VESICULAR-ARBUSCULAR MYCORRHIZAL SPORE GERMINATION.
SYMBIOSIS. 9(1-3)199-202.
Address:
 
VIERHEILIG H, CSIC,ESTAC EXPTL ZAIDIN,DEPT MICROBIOL,E-18008 GRANADA,SPAIN=

 
 
Glucosinolates, substances found in crucifers, are metabolized to antifunga=
l
 volatile and nonvolatile isothiocyanates. Vesicular-arbuscular (VA)
mycorrhizal symbiosis is not developed in the Cruciferae. The effect of
exposing root extracts or their gasesous components from host (tomato,
alfalfa) and non-host plants (cabbage, rape, radish, spinach) to spores of
Glomus masseae were studied. The results suggest that the inhibitory effect
of root extracts of non-host plants (Crucifereae) on spore germination can
not be attrributed solely to presence of volatile substances and extended t=
o
other non-host plants.
                           =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
---------
 
Here's another research paper abstract that says VAM fungi colonized and
benefited cabbage plant roots..
 
                 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
--------------------------------------
 
 
Nelson R; Achar PN. 2001. Stimulation of growth and nutrient uptake by VAM
fungi in Brassica oleracea var. capitata. BIOLOGIA PLANTARUM. 44(2):277-281=
.
 
Address:
 
Univ Durban Westville, Dept Microbiol, ZA-4000 Durban, South Africa.
 
 
Cabbage (Brassica oleracea, var. capitata, cv. Hercules) seedlings were
inoculated with vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi Glomus
fasciculatum, G. aggregatum,, and C;. mosseae. Differential efficiency in
mycorrhizal colonization and the specificity of fungal symbiont to stimulat=
e
the growth and nutrient uptake of the host were observed. In addition, ther=
e
was an increase in phenol, protein, reducing sugar contents, and peroxidase
activity in the VAM inoculated seedlings. Since these compounds are known t=
o
confer resistance against fungal pathogens, the use of VAM as a biological
control agent to protect cabbage against several root diseases is suggested=
.
                                       =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Here's another abstract that seems to indicate cabbage seedlings were
colonized and benefited with AM fungi...
 
                                       =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
 
 
Nelson R; Achar PN. 2001. Stimulation of growth and nutrient uptake by VAM
fungi in Brassica oleracea var. capitata. BIOLOGIA PLANTARUM. 44(2):277-281=
.
 
Address:
 
Univ Durban Westville, Dept Microbiol, ZA-4000 Durban, South Africa.
 
 
Cabbage (Brassica oleracea, var. capitata, cv. Hercules) seedlings were
inoculated with vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi Glomus
fasciculatum, G. aggregatum,, and C;. mosseae. Differential efficiency in
mycorrhizal colonization and the specificity of fungal symbiont to stimulat=
e
the growth and nutrient uptake of the host were observed. In addition, ther=
e
was an increase in phenol, protein, reducing sugar contents, and peroxidase
activity in the VAM inoculated seedlings. Since these compounds are known t=
o
confer resistance against fungal pathogens, the use of VAM as a biological
control agent to protect cabbage against several root diseases is suggested=
.
 
                                           =
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Best Regards,
 
Thomas Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com
 
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
 
  It's clear we have a great deal more to learn.
 
  But it does seem clear that trying to grow a plant that needs mycorrhizal
fungi to suppress disease, or to obtain adequate nutrition AFTER you grow a
brassica or cole or kale crop is not a wise idea.
 
  UNLESS you add back a mycorrhizal inoculum.
 
  But, you then have to make sure that you have done something to chew up
the exudates that the brassica may have produced, or the biology that the
brassica may have produced.
 
  The easiest way to do that is to use compost or compost tea to establish
the organisms, and chew up the toxic materials that might be there. Severa=
l
applications are typically needed to establish the full diversity, because
the toxics kill lots of the critters with each application, until such time
as the toxics are finally chewed up, and the foodweb can be established.
 
  So start applying the compost or tea in the fall, so the soil is in shape
by spring.
 
  Elaine R. Ingham
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 15
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 01:10:48 -0000
   From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Subject: Powdery Mildew remission with ACT
 
 
Hi Folks,
 
I'm sorry for the delay but as promised following are the results of
the attempt to stop and shrink a powdery mildew (pm) infection with
foliar applications of aerated compost tea. This was not a
scientifically run trial and observations are anecdotal. The results
were not as profound as previously observed on occasion. There are
several potential variables, one being the age of the worm castings
used. The castings were harvested about 5 months ago. The pm was,
however, put into 90% remission through daily applications over a
period of 7 days. The tea (2 batches) was brewed for 48 hours with a
water pump, venturi and bag extracter. The temperature ranged from
65 to 88 degrees. The ingredients; 100 liters of spring (well)
water, 1 liter of black strap molasses, 65 ml of fish hydrolisate;
IN BAG > 5 liters worm castings, 250 ml of Norwegian kelp meal, 65
ml of rock phosphate granules, 65 ml of pyrophillite clay powder.
 
Cheers,
Titel
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 16
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:10:03 -0800
   From: "Ted Peterson" <ted.peterson_at_tcsn.net>
Subject: Re: Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
I think you have this wrong. 2.2 pounds to a kilo. I checked
 
http://www.eardc.swt.edu/ucon/ucon.html
 
to make sure. I think you have this exactly opposite.
 
Ted Peterson
EW/SOE
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:35 PM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Re: Some Numbers and Metabolites
 
 
  In a message dated 11/1/2004 11:59:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
kirkleon_at_open.org writes:
    Is 20 kg compost to 10 pounds a typo? I can imagine 20 liters of
compost
    being 10 pounds, but 20 kg is 44 pounds last I checked... I dislike
chasing
    numbers but this confuses me.
  One kg is less than a pound. 1 pound is the same as 2.21 kg.
 
  Or you can multiply the number of kg you have by 0.45 to get pounds.
 
  Aren't conversions fun? Drives me crazy. I always have to have someone
double check my math, and even then, I'm not always really positive I got i=
t
right. But, I can check myself by thinking about hte fact that a pound is
much more than a kg, as long as you aren't changing materials.
 
 
  Elaine R. Ingham
  Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
  Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
  Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
  Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
  Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
  Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
  Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT
 
 
 
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--

  Yahoo! Groups Links
 
    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/compost_tea/
 
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    compost_tea-unsubscribe_at_yahoogroups.com
 
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service=
.
 
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 17
   Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:37:57 -0800
   From: David Anderson <squtch_at_gmail.com>
Subject: Re: EM leachate "tea"
 
Considering the amount of disinformation thay have on aerobic
composting, I find it card to consider them credible.
 
 
On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:23:11 -0000, Vida na Terra
<vida-na-terra_at_oninet.pt> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> This company in the UK makes anaerobic compost with EM
>
> http://www.environmentalcomposting.co.uk
>
> On this site they explain why this process, etc...
>
> Regards
> Joao
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.784 / Virus Database: 530 - Release Date: 28-10-2004
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 18
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:01:06 +1000
   From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
Subject: My NZ Visit
 
Do we have any Kiwis in the group who are doing great things with ACT and=

who live north of Auckland and/or around Whangarei?
I'll be popping over briefly ( 19th - 22nd Nov) to talk to a country Garden=

Club my mum started 50 years ago. Some of the garden club members read abou=
t
my work with ACT and are keen to know more about it so I'll give a quick
demo at the end of my talk. If there are any farmers/farmers' wives in the=

garden club who want to know more, I'd like to refer them to someone using=

ACT successfully on their farms.
Scot Alexander
Maleny
Queensland.
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 19
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:41:09 +1000
   From: "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_bigpond.com>
Subject: Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
 
I was asked about how my daylilies were responding to compost tea. I think =
I
mentioned a couple of years ago that 50 gallons of undiluted CT was able to=

suppress the development rust spores on a majority of the 250 different
varieties I grew in an acre trial plot . This plot of intensively grown
plants was sprayed at full moon over a 11 month period.
 
The other 6 acres were given 150 gallons through the irrigation system (in=

approx 5000 gallons of water). The trial ceased at the end of 2002 and now=

the trial plot is treated the same as the rest of the farm and rust has
returned.
 
This rust (Hemerocallis puccinia) is a particularly nasty one and can make=

quite a mess of the leaves on some varieties that have very little
resistance. Most of the varieties that become badly affected in spring are=

tetraploids whereas the diploid varieties are much more resistant. On my=

farm daylily rust doesn't appear to affect the growth of plants although
when the disease arrived in Nov.2001, 3 varieties lost all their foliage=

for 3 to 4 months. This doesn't happen now.
 
Since the beginning of 2003, 7 acres were fertigated monthly with 200
gallons of CT (plus nutrients added just prior to dispersal - kelp, fish,=

humic acid, micronised lime) via overhead sprinklers and these foliar
applications are the sole source of nutrition for these plants. Its now 4=

years since I side-dressed the daylilies in the stockbeds with the speciall=
y
blended organic fertiliser I used to use.
 
CT has enabled me to make big savings each year - possibly in the vicinity=

of $2000 counting wages.
 
I have to admit that after all these years I'm still in awe of the amazing=

affects of CT - particularly now because I'm DOING IT ALL WRONG and have=

been doing it like this since early this year. To enable me to quickly
apply 200 gallons of CT in 5000 gallons of water to 6 acres (down from 7)=

I've designed a system for the tea to be sucked into the irrigation system=

BEFORE the inlet of the huge pump (puts out 4000 gallons an hour). For thre=
e
years prior to that, I had a venturi system 2 metres from the outlet but
that was far too slow (and inconvenient) for me when circumstances changed.=

 
According to the experts, fertigating the new way would mean that huge
numbers of fungi and other poor microbes would be
annihilated/shredded/killed wouldn't they? BUT some of them must be
surviving this treatment and continuing to provide nutrients and benefits t=
o
the plants. We certainly haven't had perfect weather - we've had the driest=

6 months on record and yet plant growth hasn't been affected.
 
If I had the time and $$$'s and if Elaine's Lab. was just down the road,
I'd take samples from the sprinklers and find out what survived. In the
meantime I'll continue what I'm doing until . . . . . .
 
Scott Alexander
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 20
   Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 15:23:55 -0000
   From: "Titel Ryzhomer" <thegoodjob_at_hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
 
 
Hi Scott,
 
Just thought I'd mention we use a similar sounding method to yours
with good results; devivery by irrigation pump to overhead shrub
head sprinklers.
 
Titel
 
--- In compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com, "Scott Alexander" <daylily_at_b...>
wrote:
> I was asked about how my daylilies were responding to compost tea.
I think I
> mentioned a couple of years ago that 50 gallons of undiluted CT
was able to
> suppress the development rust spores on a majority of the 250
different
> varieties I grew in an acre trial plot . This plot of intensively
grown
> plants was sprayed at full moon over a 11 month period.
>
> The other 6 acres were given 150 gallons through the irrigation
system (in
> approx 5000 gallons of water). The trial ceased at the end of
2002 and now
> the trial plot is treated the same as the rest of the farm and
rust has
> returned.
>
> This rust (Hemerocallis puccinia) is a particularly nasty one and
can make
> quite a mess of the leaves on some varieties that have very little
> resistance. Most of the varieties that become badly affected in
spring are
> tetraploids whereas the diploid varieties are much more
resistant. On my
> farm daylily rust doesn't appear to affect the growth of plants
although
> when the disease arrived in Nov.2001, 3 varieties lost all their
foliage
> for 3 to 4 months. This doesn't happen now.
>
> Since the beginning of 2003, 7 acres were fertigated monthly with
200
> gallons of CT (plus nutrients added just prior to dispersal -
kelp, fish,
> humic acid, micronised lime) via overhead sprinklers and these
foliar
> applications are the sole source of nutrition for these plants.
Its now 4
> years since I side-dressed the daylilies in the stockbeds with the
specially
> blended organic fertiliser I used to use.
>
> CT has enabled me to make big savings each year - possibly in the
vicinity
> of $2000 counting wages.
>
> I have to admit that after all these years I'm still in awe of the
amazing
> affects of CT - particularly now because I'm DOING IT ALL WRONG
and have
> been doing it like this since early this year. To enable me to
quickly
> apply 200 gallons of CT in 5000 gallons of water to 6 acres (down
from 7)
> I've designed a system for the tea to be sucked into the
irrigation system
> BEFORE the inlet of the huge pump (puts out 4000 gallons an hour).
For three
> years prior to that, I had a venturi system 2 metres from the
outlet but
> that was far too slow (and inconvenient) for me when circumstances
changed.
>
> According to the experts, fertigating the new way would mean that
huge
> numbers of fungi and other poor microbes would be
> annihilated/shredded/killed wouldn't they? BUT some of them must
be
> surviving this treatment and continuing to provide nutrients and
benefits to
> the plants. We certainly haven't had perfect weather - we've had
the driest
> 6 months on record and yet plant growth hasn't been affected.
>
> If I had the time and $$$'s and if Elaine's Lab. was just down the
road,
> I'd take samples from the sprinklers and find out what survived.
In the
> meantime I'll continue what I'm doing until . . . . . .
>
> Scott Alexander
 
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 21
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:28:19 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
Thomas -
 
It sounds like you have concluded that brassica, in general, and
VAM-requiring plants can be grown together. That is not the conclusion tha=
t
would be
taken from the papers you pointed out. You have not demonstrated that
anyone is
suggesting that brassica and mycorrhizal plants can be GROWN TOGETHER.
 
Now, it is useful that you point out the one paper that says a certain
cabbage species can be mycorrhizal. Thank you for bringing that paper to
the
attention of the group.
 
Your first abstract said,
"The results suggest that the inhibitory effect of root extracts of non-hos=
t
plants (Crucifereae) on spore germination can not be attrributed solely to=

presence of volatile substances and extended to other non-host plants."
 
This does not suggest that non-host plants plants can be companions of host=

plants. It clearly says there are other mechanisms involved in the
inhibition
of VAM by brassica than just the volatile glucosinolates. As I recall, it
is
glycosinolates, not glucosinolates that are the inhibitory compounds. I
need
to check if it is glyco, or gluco. It would be different structures
depending
on the y or the u. Hum, must track this down.......
------------------------------------------------
The same abstract was repeated twice - the one about cabbage becoming
mycorrhizal, so only the one paper supporting the only that this one cabbag=
e
can be
mycorrhizal.
 
Do you know who it is that suggested to these people to do this research? =
I
suspect the reason they looked at this is because of a discussion I had wit=
h
researchers in South Africa the first time I went there (back in 1998 or
thereabouts), and pointed out that we see mycorrhizal colonization on roots
of
brassica on occassion, and that the relationship does not seem to be
detrimental at
all, but beneficial.
 
What we still can't really state clearly, even based on their work, is
whether VAM colonization is beneficial by itself, or whether the roots were
ALSO
colonized by OTHER fungi that we know enhance anti-oxidative enzymes, which=

strongly influence disease suppression. VAM colonization often enhances
colonization by other beneficial organisms. So, was it VAM actually doing
the work, or
VAM mediating the benefit from other organisms?
 
Will benefit last through the whole life of the plant, and what happens whe=
n
the plants are grown in the real world? The Allens work suggests that VAM=

plants force mycorrhizal colonization on brassica, and thus suck nutrients
from
the brassica, helping out the true mycorrhizal plant, while draining the
brassica to death. Plant vampires?
 
So, just because a brassica can become mycorrhizal, and we see mycorrhizal=

colonization, doesn't mean there will be benefit.
 
The majority of the data in the scientific literature suggests that brassic=
a

in general, are not mycorrhizal. A few papers (see work by the Allens, and=

Brent Reeves) suggest that mycorrhizal colonization is actively detrimental=
.
 A
few papers are now suggesting that maybe some brassica can be mycorrhizal.=

We need to learn which plants, and under what conditions.
 
Way too early to say that brassica and VAM plants can be grown together.
 
And please note, that Dr. Nelson says -
Differential efficiency in mycorrhizal colonization and the specificity of=

fungal symbiont to stimulate the growth and nutrient uptake of the host wer=
e
observed.
 
So, which species of brassica MIGHT be benefitted?
 
More work required.
----------------------
>From a practical point of view, the take-home message is still that most
brassica are not mycorrhizal, and don't become mycorrhizal, and possibly ar=
e
actively harmed by being colonized.
 
As I have pointed out before, SOME brassica CAN BE mycorrhizal in certain=

conditions. We have a great deal to learn.
 
BUT, when in doubt, it is not wise to plant brassica and higher plants in
the
same place at the same time, nor to follow a brassica crop with a crop of=

something else.
 
Get rid of the VAM-inhibiting materials, whether in the roots, or in the
soil, by using compost or compost tea to use those food resources, whether
they
are chemicals or the root tissue as foods.
 
Then apply the mycorrhizal fungi, so you know the vegies or row crop or
broad
acre plants can become mycorrhizal if they need to become mycorrhizal.
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 22
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:38:05 -0800 (PST)
   From: butch ragland <wilddog_202_at_yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Compost Teas on my crop - daylilies.
 
This is not a direct response to your results, but I
mentioned earlier that I created a bog to catch my
shower water and another that catches the kitchen sink
and washer.
 
The purpose was just to recycle the water which
ultimately empties into our water feature.
 
Finally, I planted hosta in these bogs and they grew
like weeds. This led me to planting other plants to
see how they responded and daylilies also grew very
well. Actually very very well.
 
Try a little experiment, make a bog out of rubber pond
liner. Fill with organic matter to a level above
ground or above water holding level. If you do this
near your beds then it will be watered and fed exactly
like the rest of the daylilies. The result will
compare the difference between in ground and in the
bog all other factors equal.
 
If you try this please let me know how it works.
 
--- Scott Alexander <daylily_at_bigpond.com> wrote:
 
> I was asked about how my daylilies were responding
> to compost tea.
 
=====
Butch Ragland
Conflict is as addictive as
cocaine, alcohol, cigarettes,etc
I'm sorry to report that
cooperation is not
 
 
 
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com
 
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 23
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:30:54 -0800
   From: "Thomas Giannou" <thomas_at_tandjenterprises.com>
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
Hi Elaine,
 
Taking one topic at a time. In an earlier post I showed an abstract that
stated that mycorrhizal plants and brassica can indeed be planted together.=
 
That particular abstract stated, "No inhibition of AM colonization was
observed in host plants that were grown in the same pot and at the same tim=
e
as non-host plants. However, when non-host plants were grown for 30 d befor=
e
P. sativum, they inhibited mycorrhizal colonization of the latter."
 
Below is the abstract I was referring to in my message. This is an example
where mycorrhizal host plants can be planted with non-mycorrhizal plants at
the same time and the AM fungi was not inhibited. I am not trying to
generalize anything. I was talking about this particular research finding.=
 
Based upon this particular finding, it is not unreasonable to think that a
similar coplanting situation MAY exist with other Brassica plants especiall=
y
in consideration that other Brassica plants were actually colonized by AM
fungi as I noted in at least one other abstract that I posted in a prior
message. (I reposted that abstract below.)
 
                                     =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
--------------------------
Fontenla, S; Garcia-Romera, I; Ocampo, JA. 1999. Negative influence of
non-host plants on the colonization of Pisum sativum by the arbuscular
mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae. Soil Biol. Biochem., 31: 1591-1597.
Address:
 
JA Ocampo; CSIC, Dept Microbiol, Estac Expt Zaidin, Prof Albareda 1, E-1800=
8
Granada, ; Spain; CSIC; Prof Albareda 1; Granada; Spain; E-18008.
 
 
We studied the influence of the arbuscular mycorrhizal (AM) non-host plants
Stellalria media (Caryophyllaceae), Chenopodium album and Spinaceae olerace=
a
(Chenopodiaceae), Brassica campestris, B. nigra, Capsella bursa-patoris and
Sisymbrium altissimum (Brassicaceae), Juncus balticus (Juncaceae), Urtica
campestris (Urticaceae) and of the AM host plant Taraxacum officinale
(Asteraceae) on the colonization of Pisum sativum by the AM fungus Glomus
mosseae. None of the non-host plants tested were colonized by Glomus mossea=
e
 Older non-host plants competed with P. sativum. No inhibition of AM
colonization was observed in host plants that were grown in the same pot an=
d
at the same time as non-host plants. However, when non-host plants were
grown for 30 d before P. sativum, they inhibited mycorrhizal colonization o=
f
the latter. In a split pot system the presence of U. dioica on the left-sid=
e
decreased AM colonization of P. sativum roots on the left-side, but not on
the right-side. Non-host plants decreased the inoculum potential of G.
mosseae and in some cases the percentage AM colonization of host plants
cultivated after non-host plants. These results indicate that roots of
non-host species have factors that seem to affect the AM fungus before it
establishes in the root of host plants. (C) 1999 Elsevier Science Ltd. All
rights reserved.
                                          =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
---------------
 
In the abstract below, Cabbage seedlings (Brassica oleracea, var. capitata,
cv. Hercules) were inoculated with AM fungi and were colonized and were
benefited. Hercules cabbage is a fairly nice vegetable plant that would fi=
t
in most gardens. Since this particular cabbage was colonized by AM fungi,
and no mention of inhibition is found in the abstract, it is not
unreasonable to think that another mycorrhizal plant could be planted right
along side these Hercules cabbages and quite likely would not have a proble=
m
   Also, to now say that all brassica are non-mycorrhizal is incorrect.
 
                                        =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
------------------
Nelson R; Achar PN. 2001. Stimulation of growth and nutrient uptake by VAM
fungi in Brassica oleracea var. capitata. BIOLOGIA PLANTARUM. 44(2):277-281=
.
 
Address:
 
Univ Durban Westville, Dept Microbiol, ZA-4000 Durban, South Africa.
 
 
Cabbage (Brassica oleracea, var. capitata, cv. Hercules) seedlings were
inoculated with vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizal (VAM) fungi Glomus
fasciculatum, G. aggregatum,, and C;. mosseae. Differential efficiency in
mycorrhizal colonization and the specificity of fungal symbiont to stimulat=
e
the growth and nutrient uptake of the host were observed. In addition, ther=
e
was an increase in phenol, protein, reducing sugar contents, and peroxidase
activity in the VAM inoculated seedlings. Since these compounds are known t=
o
confer resistance against fungal pathogens, the use of VAM as a biological
control agent to protect cabbage against several root diseases is suggested=
.
                                                       =
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
----
 
Best Regards,
Thomas Giannou
http://www.tandjenterprises.com
 
 
 
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [compost_tea] Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
 
  Thomas -
 
  It sounds like you have concluded that brassica, in general, and
VAM-requiring plants can be grown together. That is not the conclusion tha=
t
would be taken from the papers you pointed out. You have not demonstrated
that anyone is suggesting that brassica and mycorrhizal plants can be GROWN
TOGETHER.
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 24
   Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:41:09 EST
   From: soilfoodweb_at_aol.com
Subject: Re: Exudates (was: Re: Brassicas and vam fungi)
 
Hi Thomas -
 
I missed the previous post where the abstract was given.
 
It appears that microbial processing appears to be needed to process the
roots of the brassica, so that the inhibitory compound is released. Time i=
s
required as well.
 
None of the non-hosts became colonized. All of the host plants became
colonized. So, this says, under this condition, the VAM plants did not pus=
h
colonization on the brassica. And vice versa, the VAM plants became
established and
were healthy enough to not be affected by brassica inhibition.
 
Timing effect? Lack of the microbes to turn the glucosinolates into toxic=

materials for the VAM?
 
Interesting......
 
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
Soil Foodweb Inc., Jerome, Idaho
Soil Foodweb Inc., South Africa
 
 
[This message contained attachments]
 
 
 
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
 
Message: 25
   Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:16:56 +1300
   From: "bkquinn" <bkquinn_at_xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: My NZ Visit
 
Hi Scott and others,
 
we have plenty of commercial farmers / growers doing great things with ACT
(many are lurking right here)and plenty of want-to-be's(who should be
lurking) who put it all at risk.
That is the message to push home at the garden club.
the contact in NZ is;
Cherryle Prew
Soil Foodweb Institute NZ Ltd
982 Kaipaki Road
 
RD 3
 
Cambridge
 
New Zealand
 
Ph 0064-7-823 7520
 
Fx 0064-7-827 3787
 
Mob 027 2907 566
 
www.soilfoodweb.com
 
 
 
we have plenty writing about compost tea and still talking about an old soc=
k
full of compost(or something that once had potential) stirred or kicked
every time you pass it, (especially in the North where you are talking
about), so take a hard and direct line to what you are talking about and
recommend serious interest to contact the lab for NZ advisers list.
 
crops (commercial) using ACT include grass farming (beef, dairy), avocado,
kiwi, citrus, vegetable, grape, apple, asparagus, and so on.
 
regards
 
Bill Quinn
 
Paeroa New Zealand.
 
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Scott Alexander
  To: compost_tea_at_yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 11:01 PM
  Subject: [compost_tea] My NZ Visit
 
 
  Do we have any Kiwis in the group who are doing great things with ACT and=

  who live north of Auckland and/or around Whangarei?
  I'll be popping over briefly ( 19th - 22nd Nov) to talk to a country
Garden
  Club my mum started 50 years ago. Some of the garden club members read
about
  my work with ACT and are keen to know more about it so I'll give a quick=

  demo at the end of my talk. If there are any farmers/farmers' wives in th=
e
  garden club who want to know more, I'd like to refer them to someone usin=
g
  ACT successfully on their farms.
  Scot Alexander
  Maleny
  Queensland.
 
 
 
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Received on Thu Nov 04 2004 - 09:28:12 EST

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