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Re: British Beef Situation



In article <f6DgDBAarzfxEwU$@upthorpe.demon.co.uk>,
   Oz <Oz@upthorpe.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <4lhajd$jmc@news1.exit109.com>, "Nathan D. Justus"
><nathan@exit109.com> writes
>
>
>We had a discussion on this very subject a few months ago in
>sci.agriculture. Suffice to say that in practice, certainly in the UK,
>this assumption is unjustified in practice IMHO. We can discuss this in
>depth if you wish.
>

Actually, yes I am interested - partly because I know very little about 
farming practices in the UK.  As I've said before I am not a farmer, nor have 
I been one, however, I have done a small amount of research on this topic 
-both book and some observation (I have a sister in law who is a farmer)


>Who is Rohdale? How are they doing it? What is their criteria? What 
>crops?

Rodale is a research organization here in the USA.  If you'd like, I'll find 
an address/contact info for you.  They also publish some wonderful (and other 
not so wonderful) books - one of their notables is a cookbook called 'stocking 
up' which has lots of interesting recipes for things you can can, freeze, 
smoke, etc.  (I'm not a big fan of some of their recipes - they rely a lot on 
honey for sweetener which I can't stand - honey has a nice flavor, but not as 
a total replacement for white sugar in baked goods, unless, of course, you're 
making a honey cake or something)

>
>With enough manure and no attacks of pests and diseases location then 
>vegetable crops can be grown with little difference between organic and 
>conventional. However it's as well to note some differences. One problem 
>is the mismatch of nutrients in organic manures. So growing potatoes on 
>a clay that liberates potassium is fine as you really only have to apply 
>enough manure to provide the nitrogen for the crop. Admittedly the high 
>nitrogen early in the season results in a lot of small potatoes rather 
>than a few big ones and so large peeling losses, but still. Try to grow 
>them on a non-potash liberating loam and you are in all sorts of 
>trouble. The correct amount of potash results in a massive overdose of 
>nitrogen.

Yes, I agree.  And I never did say that we shouldn't rely on proper analysis 
of the fertilizer being used.  What I did say - or thought I said, though I 
may not have stressed it - is that if we don't build the soil, but rather 
simply allow it to keep turning into dust-like textures, we're killing the 
croplands. 
>
>Of course if you get blight then the crop is a write-off.
>If you get aphids you are in trouble.
>If you get Colorado beetle you are in serious trouble.
>etc. etc.

This is true.  However, biological controls for insects also exist.  And even 
if we used chemicals - there are chemicals that are less destructive to the 
environment.  It's all about _choices_ for what we use.

personally, I see no reason to go back to the dark ages - we've learned a lot 
in the last few centuries, why throw it away?  I only believe that we need to 
consider our actions in light of long term effects of them - who would have 
thought, forty years ago, for example, that disposal of radioactive waste from 
nuclear power stations would become such a big problem?  Or the decomissioning 
of the stations themselves?


>
>For cereals there are too many problems unless we are talking extensive. 
>I would define extensive these days as less than 2T/ac. Not least the 
>country doesn't provide remotely enough manure to do it.

Yes, it is amazing that we don't have enough sh*t to go around, isn't it :-)
I would think that between the British and US governments we'd have more than 
enough, alas...


Of course, we're not set up for real stable state recycling - where _all_ our 
organic wastes go back to the land.  That would take massive, massive 
enginering efforts and wholesale changes to society.

And I certainly must defer to your firsthand experience of dealing with the 
land - however, if your farm was farmed semi-organically, you used bag 
fertilizer as a supplement, and still worked to keep the soil healthy, this is 
the type of land care that I am thinking of - the thing that I was thinking 
was so bad is something that happens here - where there are so many chemicals 
dumped on the soil all the insects die, and the land becomes essentially dead 
dust.

Nathan 

----------------------------
(Since Sue Ford could trademark her name with a TM, I decided to register mine.
Then I realized that I was already registered with selective service.  Then I
realized that "R" following a name usually designated royalty - a la Rex from
Latin - George R, Elizabeth R.  Naturally I decided I would then adopt that.  So
now I can just say:)
"We are NOT amused."



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