Subject: Re: Why so few BATF agents in OK Federal Building

From: [email-masked] (Darlene Cypser)
Date: 29 May 1995 07:27:46 -0600

Could you folks remove sci.geo.geology from your cross-postings, please.  
It is not appropriate.

Darlene

---

From: [email-masked] (Joseph S. Merola)
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 13:46:15 GMT

How did this thread end up in bburg.bev.general?  Could all of you
conspirators please change your postings so it doesn't come here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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 Director of Graduate Education
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---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Graham)
Date: 29 May 1995 13:44:32 GMT

Carl J Lydick ([email-masked]) wrote:
> In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Michel) writes:

> =So far nobody has explained to me how P-waves can show up on a trace
> =done by a device recording mainly S-waves, and have an amplitutde
> =which is *bigger* than the one from genuine S-waves. Yes, there can be
> =some cross influence between the two kinds of waves, but the
> =phenomenon would only be marginal.

> You seem to believe that there's something intrinsically different between the
> direction and frequency of the motion caused by an S wave and that caused by a
> P wave.  There's not.

So, Carl.  How about answering his question?  Heck, lay all this 
bantering about second-bomb conspiracies to rest.  Just explain to
him why the amplitude of the supposed reflection or secondary wave
was greater than the first.

> =Of course Carl will respond that I don't really understand the words
> =I write.

> You've demonstrated quite nicely that you know absolutely nothing about what
> you're gibbering about.

No, I think not.  He's demonstrated as have many others, that there is
an unanswered FUNDAMENTAL question about the seismograph recording.

If someone would actually answer this, we could avoid all of this
pompous bullshit from you armchair skeptics.

Jim Graham
--
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ATTENTION BATF:  BITE Me!

Keywords for NSA/CIA/FBI/BATF search:  farming, rutabagas, turnips,
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"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
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(Samuel Adams)

Work: [email-masked]
Home: [email-masked]
Sysop: The Portal Dolmen BBS (812)334-0418

---

From: [email-masked] (John DeLaughter)
Date: 29 May 1995 16:32:12 GMT

In article <[email-masked]> [email-masked] writes:
>
>
>So far nobody has explained to me how P-waves can show up on a trace
>done by a device recording mainly S-waves, and have an amplitutde
>which is *bigger* than the one from genuine S-waves. Yes, there can be
>some cross influence between the two kinds of waves, but the
>phenomenon would only be marginal.

Ok, let me give this a swing.  I am not a full-time seismologist; right
now I'm researching coronae and geoid functions.  However, my master's
thesis dealt with earthquake statistics.  And, even better, I have at
hand three (out of many, many more) texts that *show* seismic traces
recorded on the same type of equipment as that located in Norman.

In _Earthquake Interpretation: A Manual for Reading Seismograms_ (R.B.
Simon, 1981), there are several exxamples of seismic traces which include
both P- and S-waves.  There are even several that show LQ and LR.
See pp.24-25, 36-37, 39, 41, 47... Heck, look at just about any page in
the book!

In _Introduction to Geophysical Prospecting_ (M.B. Dobrin and C. H. Savit,
1988), there is a very good description of how seismic waves propogate 
(Ch 2) and another on the type of instruments that are used to record
seismic traces (Ch 3).  Admittedly, this book is geared more toward
exploration seismology that toward earthquake seismology and so gives
more room to typical exploration geophones but, as one professor of mine
used to say, "The math don't care!"  There is also a nice discussion
of the growing use of S-waves in seismic surveys.

And, in _The Solid Earth: An Introduction to Global Geophysics_ (C. M. R.
Fowler, 1990), there are again several examples of both P- and S-waves 
arriving on the same instrument (pp. 96-97), as well as a good, basic 
discussion of seismic propogation.

In short, as long as you continue to argue that a seismometer can only
recieve P- or S- waves, and not both all types of properly oriented
waves, you will reveal the vast depths of your ignorance in the field.

John DeLaughter

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Mork)
Date: 29 May 1995 17:15:26 GMT

You mean facts are actually USED in these interminable rightwing rants?

Not so's I've noticed.  Why is it rightwingers can create their cases out 
of whole cloth and expect everybody else to do better?  In  most of these 
cases, "nobody knows" is the only truthful answer.  But, then, that would 
make for a lot of short threads.

--
========================================================================
He who sacrifices his conscience to ambition burns a picture
to obtain the ashes.
       Chinese Proverb
========================================================================

---

From: [email-masked] (Michel)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 01:54:12 UTC

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] foams:
>In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Lee Boyle) writes:
>=A textbook paranoid personality ranted:

It's amazing how predictable these gummint apologetics all are! If
they can't dispute the facts any longer, they resort to name calling,
and question the mental sanity of their opponents.

>=>
>=> You forgot my small surprise quizz, to prove that at least you know
>=>something about VAXen :)
>=>
>=
>=This side attack is quite revealing. 

Ah, the pop psychoanalysis continues. Probably so that he can claim
that it's not an ad hominem attack but rather the result of a careful
deduction.

>= Do you care at all about convicing
>=people that the bombing was a dark conspiracy, or do you just like
>=pretending that you know more than anybody else? 

I care about convincing that the bombing was a conspiracy, but in
this occasion I just wanted to make fun of somebody's stupid
signature.

>= I'm sure you find it
>=very comforting in the short term, but it doesn't really address your
>=underlying need for acceptance.  
>=
>=Is there somebody that you can talk to about this?
 Psychoanalysis again.

>
>To respond toi his sid quiz, it was yet another example of his babbling.  I

Aren't we getting a little bit nervous here? Spelling errors can be
quite revealing. (Sorry for the psychoing...)

>claim to understand VAXen and VMS.  His "quiz" had little to do with either:  I                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>was a question about a security bug in an O/S other than VMS that happened to
>run on VAXen.
        ^^^
Isn't there a small contradiction here? (Not that it is relevant to
the bombing, I'm just picking nits...)

Of course Carl will respond that I don't really understand the words
I write. Probable candidates are the words ad hominem, S-wave, P-wave,
psychoanalysis, and why not VAXen and VMS. Probably I'm just a team of
monkeys banging away at my keyboard. Hey, a few more candidate words.

Probably lots of other people will try to find comfort by showing
their pop knowlege of psychology.

Of course people don't want to appear to be predictable (sorry for the
psychoing), and will try to react differently. Or maybe some won't get
it.
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---

From: [email-masked] (Lee Boyle)
Date: 29 May 1995 18:36:35 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>,
>and question the mental sanity of their opponents.

  1. Every "fact" you have presented has been disputed thoroughly.

  2. I didn't really intend that as name-calling, just marvelling at
     how well this entire thread would fit into an Abnormal Psych
     textbook.  To anyone familiar with the diagnostic criteria for
     "paranoid personality", it's like saying "a man with a limp".
     That's not name-calling, it's simply stating the obvious.  I'll
     point out that it's not the same as "paranoid schizophrenic".

>this occasion I just wanted to make fun of somebody's stupid

  I didn't understand it as "making fun".  It seemed to come across
  as a test of his abilities, with the intent of impressing us all
  that you actually know more than he does.  The fact that you 
  pressed for an answer when he ignored you further confused me.

>quite revealing. (Sorry for the psychoing...)

  Now here's an example of the difference between a person with training in
  psychological evaluation and "pop psychology".  Spelling errors are an
  excellent way to diagnose a sticky keyboard and possibly the importance
  attached to the message.  Personally, I would expect a person to be more
  attentive to his spelling if he was worried about the factual content,
  but I wouldn't make any decisions based on it unless I had seen samples
  of the person's typing under a variety of circumstances.

>the bombing, I'm just picking nits...)

  If I claimed to be an expert in the care of horses, it wouldn't be
  reasonable to test my claim by asking the name of the jockey who
  rode the winning horse in the 1957 Kentucky Derby.  People who
  understood what it means to be an expert in the care of horses 
  would immediately see that you don't understand it, and might even
  suspect that this was the only horse-related fact you knew.
 
--
-------------------
Lee Boyle
[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked] (Carl J Lydick)
Date: 29 May 1995 04:33:06 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Michel) writes:
=Aren't we getting a little bit nervous here? Spelling errors can be
=quite revealing. (Sorry for the psychoing...)

Not at all, though you DO once again demonstrate your propensity to look for
imaginary, complex explanations where simple ones would do.  In this case, the
terminal I was using had a flakeey E key.

=>claim to understand VAXen and VMS.  His "quiz" had little to do with either:  I                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=>was a question about a security bug in an O/S other than VMS that happened to
=>run on VAXen.
=        ^^^
=Isn't there a small contradiction here? (Not that it is relevant to
=the bombing, I'm just picking nits...)

Not at all, though I'm not surprised that you're stupid enough to think there
is.  Tell me, would you expect an automobile mechanic who specializes in GM
products to be an expert in repairing televisions just because some folks might
transport televisions in GM vehicles?  By far the vast majority of bugs found
in Ultrix have simply been bugs in code ported intact from BSD.  Such bugs
have nothing to do with VAXen per se.  Of course, as usual, you were just
bandying buzzwords you'd encountered in a field of which you're quite ignorant.

=Probable candidates are the words ad hominem, S-wave, P-wave,
=psychoanalysis, and why not VAXen and VMS. Probably I'm just a team of
=monkeys banging away at my keyboard. Hey, a few more candidate words.
=
=Probably lots of other people will try to find comfort by showing
=their pop knowlege of psychology.

You mean as you did above?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: [email-masked] | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.

---

From: [email-masked] (Madeleine Page)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 14:19:16 GMT

In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], too

>    and question the mental sanity of their opponents.
    
Well, dear, I'll give you a break.  I'm willing to question your physical
sanity instead. 

Feel better now?

>    that it's not an ad hominem attack but rather the result of a careful

For someone who gets his knickers in a major twist about The True Facts,
you sure have a sloppy way with the terms you throw about.  If the segment
you quote were in fact an attempt to move the argument to a psychological
level, it still would not constitute 'psychoanalysis', pop, mom, Oedipal
or otherwise.  

If you keep misusing terminology in this manner, I shall be obliged to
send the black helicopters to get you.

Maddy'must be damn uncomfortable what with those French fries implanted in
his buttocks and all'Page

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Graham)
Date: 29 May 1995 22:04:53 GMT

> conspirators please change your postings so it doesn't come here.

WEll, I've already been burned by this childish behaviour, apparently by
someone in this thread who can't tolerate anyone disagreeing with them.

My only mistake was that I forgot to check my followups-to: line which was
copied from Carl Lydick's post to me.  So I got it from Mr. Lydick, and
we'll leave it to him to figure out where HE got it.

My apologies for not checking it.

And for the moron that put all of those irrelevant groups in the 
followup-to: line, GROW UP.

Jim Graham

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Graham)
Date: 29 May 1995 22:12:21 GMT

> waves, you will reveal the vast depths of your ignorance in the field.

So, tell us ignoramuses how the supposed "S-wave" amplitude is greater
than the initial "P-wave".

Jim Graham

---

From: [email-masked] (Jim Graham)
Date: 29 May 1995 22:15:58 GMT

>   1. Every "fact" you have presented has been disputed thoroughly.
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^
Please name just ONE.

>      point out that it's not the same as "paranoid schizophrenic".

Thanks for giving us your expert opinion without charging us, Doctor.

Jim Graham

From alt.folklore.urban, talk.politics.misc, alt.conspiracy, sci.geo.geology, sci.skeptic, alt.flame Tue May 30 23:07:07 EDT 1995
Article: 300 of sci.bio.fisheries
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!news.amherst.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!uhog.mit.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!matlock.mindspring.com!atticus.mindspring.com!user
From: [email-masked] (Andy Walton)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,sci.geo.geology,sci.skeptic,alt.flame,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly,sci.bio.fisheries
Subject: Re: Why so few BATF agents in OK Federal Building
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 01:21:51 -0400
Organization: Waltonschauung Labs
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
References: <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]> <[email-masked]>
Reply-To: alt.folklore.urban, talk.politics.misc, alt.conspiracy, sci.geo.geology, sci.skeptic, alt.flame
NNTP-Posting-Host: atticus.mindspring.com
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In article <[email-masked]>, [email-masked] (Grey
Ghost) wrote:

   In article <[email-masked]>,
      [email-masked] (Lee Boyle) wrote:
   [lot's of paranoid bullshit thrown in the circular file]
   
   Would you morons PLEASE keep your rantings and ravings out of
newsgroups that 
   couldn't give a damn what you have to say? Specifically, 
   rec.outdoors.fishing.fly and sci.bio.fisheries?
   
Inclusion of fishing groups in the newsfroups line? Furrfu. This is
entirely too subtle. My newsreader has already marked earlier posts as
read, so I can't track the addition of these froups (the only alternative
is to mark all of afu as unread, and I haven't the strength). Artie? Is
this sporting?

Followups redirected.

+-------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
|"I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases  |
| of oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed    |
| interstate commerce."                           --J. Edgar Hoover |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Andy Walton  *  [email-masked]  *  finger for e.e. cummings|
|      http://www.mindspring.com/~atticus/Waltonschauung.html       |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

---

From: [email-masked] (Grey Ghost)
Date: 30 May 1995 01:30:05 GMT

Would you morons PLEASE keep your rantings and ravings out of newsgroups that 
couldn't give a damn what you have to say? Specifically, 
rec.outdoors.fishing.fly and sci.bio.fisheries?

Feel free to continue with your special brand of garbage flinging - 
alt.flame and alt.conspiracy needs nutbugs like you to stay in business.

But just because you have an apparently acute electrolyte imbalance doesn't 
mean you need to spam innocent conferences with your billious spewings....

We thank you for your support...You may now continue with your oxygen 
depletion program (idiots!)

---

From: [email-masked] (Hudson Luce)
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 04:57:56 GMT

>waves, you will reveal the vast depths of your ignorance in the field.

 The point that this guy probably wants to bring up, but can't, since he
 doesn't know too much, is that a bomb explosion at ground level produces
 P-waves almost exclusively. The energy comes from a (relatively) point
 source, and is compressional in nature. There is no slippage along fault
 lines which would give rise to shearing forces, and from what I've been
 able to find out, the sandstone underlying OKC and Norman is fairly iso-
 tropic, that is, the waves which travel through it, do so with equal speed
 in all directions. These two facts would tend to rule out S-wave production
 by the P-wave as it travels through the sandstone.

 So what we see on the seismographic data from FNO at between 9:00:52 and
 9:02:25 CDT on 19 April 1995 can be ascribed to P-waves, Rayleigh waves,
 and surface acoustic waves alone. I've run through the calculations before
 and am not interested in repeating them here. Perhaps Mr Rivero has archived
 them.

 The recent demolition of the AMFB rules out the impulse of the building
 striking the ground as a cause for the second major event on the 19th of
 April, by the way.

 So now, it looks like there are very few reasonable alternative explanations
 for the second major event, save for the P-waves from a second explosion.

 Anyone care to refute this?

 If so, please provide your data and show your math....

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: 31 May 1995 04:01:46 -0600

Tom FRY wrote:
>Logical questions - how did this fucking swine decide that
>rec.outdoors.fishing.fly was a fine place to post his drivel? Please in
>future confine your hooey to
>alt.frightening.cocksuckers.with.guns.and.no.balls.and.definitely.no.brains
>and leave *this* forum to fishermen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, this anonymous cocksucker *is* fishing (or trolling, as we
prefer to say over here in alt.folklore.urban). Apologies to the
freshwater fishers who prefer to catch trouts, carps and other
non-virtual fish. But then, naming a newsfroup *.*.fishing.* is
looking for trouble: a little bit like revealing your secret spots :-)

And now, a small best-of list of the catch, intended for the sensible
people who killfiled the thread long ago:

Good observer award to [email-masked] for recognizing this
thread for what it was. But why did he get caught later?

Worst troubleshooter award to our beloved [email-masked],
for blaming an extra "i", a missing "a" and a missing "m" on a sticky
"e" key on his terminal :-)

Subtle joke award to [email-masked] for posting a triple
grep bait, disguised as a "get out of this group" message.
(Un)fortunately, nobody fell for it. How many search strings can you
find?

Lame computer/real-world analogy award to [email-masked]
(again) for comaparing the relationship between computers and their
operating system to the relationship between a GM truck and a TV set
that it happens to transport. When I look under the hood of my GM
truck, I find an engine, not a TV! But maybe the TV set is right beside
the VIN on the rear axle :-)

Best psychologer award to [email-masked]. He stuck to his guns,
even after the troller predicted that he would again psychoanalyse
him. Stuck to his guns? But he is a "gummint apologetic" (tm) !

Goedel award to [email-masked]. After the fisherman predicted somebody
would again challenge his mental sanity, she went ahead went and
challenged his physical sanity...

Followups redirected to alt.folklore.urban (where this belongs),
alt.test (some fish will jump right into my basket!) and bburg.bev.general
(see below).

A few hints for the victims:
- Annoyed by posts in irrelevant froups? Use killfiles!
- Annoyed by being tricked to post into irrelevant froups? Use a
newsreader (such as tin) which warns you about multiple froups when
posting. Unfortunately there is no newsreader yet which warns you
about keyword. But fortunately keywords cannot be used with anon postings.
- Annoyed by offensive articles showing up in local newsfroups of your
peaceful and idyllic hometown? Maybe it's because you tried to censor
free speech by banning certain newsfroups from sid town? (sorry, I
have a sticky "e" key). Alt.conspiracy is like a ouija board: you can't
get rid of it. If you throw it out of the window, it comes back
through the front door!

 The Midget (tm)

---

From: [email-masked] (Andrew Brunette)
Date: 2 Jun 1995 16:14:01 GMT

Would all of you conspiracy fans please clean up your posting list? 

alt.horses,rec.outdoors.fishing.fly, sci.bio.fisheries really are not
relevant to or interested in this line of discussion.  Have some
manners, please.

---

From: [email-masked] (Neil Newman)
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 1995 17:55:55

>John DeLaughter

Would the person who keeps shuffling the postings to this thread^H^Hflamewar
into random order before despatching them to the Pinnacle Club please desist?
It is very confusing and makes my colander itch.
Also, if there is anyone out there who has any idea what the *fark* John
is going on about, would they kindly leave?
Thank you.

Neil "Whose depth of ignorance extends at least to the *Moho*" Newman
-- 
    ################Neil#Newman##Coromandel##New#Zealand#################
    #  "She fulfilled, you see, four of the five conditions necessary   #         
    #     for what may be called the Australian Ideal - she was an      #
    # immensely rich, stunningly beautiful, highly-skilled professional #
    #  amorist with the sexual appetite of a pagan priestess; she did   #
    #       not own a public house." - George MacDonald Fraser          #
    [email-masked]######################