Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:32:36 -0600 Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group From: Guillermo Romero Ibarrola Subject: Re: File: "SANET-MG POSTINGS" In-Reply-To: <200102011611.f11GBKX10831@venus.ucol.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Feb 1, 2001, Hugh Lovel wrote: >Dear List Readers, > >Now that Demeter has waved their threats in the faces of Victor and = >Linnette at Spiritual Foods for the New Millineum and shut them down as = >the sole source for many biodynamic products in the US, there are = >biodynamic farmers out there with no way to link up with buyers. Victor = >will be in India until the middle of February some time, so while we = >wait for him to return something else must come up. Oh dear Hugh: According to documents published in BD-Now and in the web site of the BDA , and that you must have read, both parties: The Demeter Association and Spiritual Foods clearly stated that there is no such thing as a shut down, nor any legal action has being taken. Demeter has also stated that it has no intention to close down Victor's business, IMHO the documents shown that Demeter is just asking Victor to use the tradenames Biodynamic and Demeter according to the priciples of that certifying agency. IMO a valid petition since that is what Demeter is suppose to do, protect and back up what the consumer interested in Demeter certified products wants, and to see that everything is done under a clear set of standards put together by the board of directors and that comply with IFOAM and other international organic and BD standards. You also know that both parties are negotiating and that Victor unilateraly decided to keep SFNM iddle until his return and further talks with Demeter. It is not like Victor's producers are "homeless", he is just out of the US. Those producers who "have no way to link with buyers", would probable benefit from a direct consumer-producer relationship such as a CSA, strongly advocated by the BDA and Demeter, in which trust is all that is needed, no certification, no accreditation, just good faith, good products and good human relationships. > >The American Biodynamic Association wants to let biodynamic farmers of = >all kinds list their products on the ABA webpage. What would be VERY = >helpful is compiling lists of all known producers and consumers. When = >Victor returns we will interface with him and figure out how best to = >approach getting BD food in peoples' diets. All farmers formerly = >certified by Demeter are elligible for AgriSynthesis certification = >outside of Demeter, providing of course that they measure up to = >AgriSynthesis's higher standards. Plus those not certified but still = >practicing biodynamics can still list their products on the ABA web = >page. http://www.biodynamics.org I have asked you this before, but with no luck. Who is ABA besides Greg Willis and yourself? Who are the board of directors of ABA ? How are they elected?, Who sets the certification standards?, on what basis?, is ABA or Agrisyntheis (to me one and the same), IFOAM accredited? IMHO What you are asking from potential US Demeter clients is to put themselves and their businesses in the hands of a few individuals instead of an institution backed up by a member based organization, such as the "BDA" (BDFGAA), backed by worldwide organizations such as Demeter International with a 77 year old legacy. The critisism that i heard is that Demeter is quite rigid. What else do you expect from a serious certifying agency? If I were a Demeter customer, that rigidity would give me confidece in the brand. Please do not loose perspective of things, Demeter is an IFOAM accredited certifing agency, they are doing what they are suppose to do!!!!! > >There is no way we are going to let biodynamically grown food fail to = >get to consumers. Demeter, the BDA and JPI may be unconcerned and may = >be visioning their future in terms of lawsuits and wine rather than = >food, but the real priority is that people, especially young children, = >get this food to eat. People like myself and Harvey Lisle on the ABA = >Advisory Board see it as urgent to pick up the fallen banner of = >Steiner's Legacy and hold it higher than ever. We need, in fact, to = >take biodynamics mainstream. Are you implying up there that the BDA and Demeter are only interested in lawsuits and the wine business? IMO they have a very different record. Correct me if I am wrong, but the wine industry is precisely where Agrisynthesis has it's claimed advantages. (http://www.agrisynthesis.com/) Greg Willis even has a "Advance Biodynamic Viticulture" business brand or registered trade mark, or copyright, or whatever. What is the point here?, I do not understand. Are you and Greg Willis are acting on behalf of "young children", and The "people", in order to provide "this food" instead of "wine", undertaking actions and assuming leadership to "pick up the fallen banner of Steiner's Legacy and hold it higher than ever"? My apologies friend but that sounds to me like an enourmous pile of demagogical BS. From your days as a Green party politician confronting other politicians, I bet you know that hidden agendas are often concealed behind pseudo-righteous identities pretending humanitarian motives. And this whole BD trade war is IMHO very suspicious. I asked you before who are exactly all these BD farmers loosing markets and opportunities because of the actions of the BDA and Demeter US? As far as I can see this whole affair is blown out of proportions, and I suspect an undisclosed motive behind the scences. You know that I respect yours and Greg's knowledge and insights about agriculture and BD, but I am seeing here an extremelly biased analysis of things. I would recommend that if you post this kind of things into open forums like SANET, do provide the background info as well. Let the people judge by themselves. There are a number of things we can do to improve the promotion of what you call "Steiner's Legacy", but I do not see the value of postings like this one, (IMHO highly manipulative and one sided) Just for the record, I am not even a member of the BDA nor do I have any interests in Demeter, but I am an enthusiast of Biodynamics and I do respect profoundly the Legacy of Rudolf Steiner. Warmly. Guillermo Romero Ibarrola <><><> Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 07:14:57 -0500 Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: File: "SANET-MG POSTINGS" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Guillarmo, How naive can you get? Demeter gave Victor no choice but to comply with their unilateral demands. So VICTOR closed things down. Nothing is being sold until he gets back from India. I've had my co-op members who were previously ordering from Victor call me up and ask me what is going on, and I've shared none of this debate with them. They can't get, oats, vinegar, rice, all those things. Victor is shut down. Demeter is the cause. How can you rationalize this and say, as Demeter says, that they did not shut Victor down? I have Victor's drafts of his protests that will not be published until he returns. Demeter gave him no choice but to comply unilaterally with their demands. Of course he shut down. All the Demeter rhetoric that they didn't mean to shut him down is lies and garbage. They meant to force him to their will. He's not waiting for legal action and he's not accepting Demeter's demands so he shut down. It's a no-brainer. Demeter's claim that they are "protecting" the term biodynamic for all of us is hollow. They are usurping it from all of us who do not pay their fees and seek their certification. And their certification is worthless in terms of guaranteeing quality anyway. Why would anyone want it? Just the prestige? Granted they have a slight prestige, but with this they are wasting it. As for the ABA? Who are they? Greg Willis and myself? Hardly. Greg Willis and myself are two, but as the rats desert the self-imploding ship of Demeter and the BDA--and who are THEY, Anne, Chuck, Jean?--more are coming aboard. Mick Winters is the clearing house for the ABA. He's the Director, editing the newsletter, sending up the web page stuff and organizing, and from what little I've seen he makes Chuck Beedy look like the do-nothing he really is. My assistant, Lorraine Cahill, is quite competent as a certifying agent, and I believe much more competent than what is currently going forward in Demeter. She knows quite a bit about remedying problems, not just looking at them. There is also a number of other quite talented people out there, many of them on this list, who probably I should contact before I put their names in a post like this, who have long been frustrated with biodynamics going nowhere. They want to see it take off and don't understand why the Anne, Jean, Chuck folks have kept biodynamics shrinking intead of growing. You seem to have a love affair with the established and proven. That's fine and good. Take a look at the established and proven record of the BDA and Demeter. Does it really look all that good? Shouldn't we try to do better? Biodynamics is not growing and I think it should. I'd like to have you aboard on a ship that is NOT sinking, so I think you should reconsider your position. As a Green Party politician I agree that things are seldom what they seem and hidden agendas are common. You ask who are these farmers getting hurt? They are none of them Demeter certified, but they are people like myself who sell their stuff through CSAs and through local markets as biodynamic quality. I've been quitely making a name for biodynamic through the exceptional quality of what I sell and label biodynamic for years. People who have tasted my stuff widely acknowledge what I grow is vastly superior to the other stuff available. They seek it. It is biodynamic in the best sense and it makes the term biodynamic seem really meaningful and NOT a lot of rhetoric. It won't be long, you watch, before Demeter says I cannot call it biodynamic any more. Biodynamic is on all my signs and labels. I will be forced to take it off, like Victor, unless I pay Demeter for their (worthless) certification. This in the name of protecting the term biodynamic for everyone. Please forgive me for my passion, Guillermo. I feel strongly about this. My economic stake in this is I'm operating a VERY small farm which could never profit from Demeter certification. I'm sick of seeing biodynamics hampered by the stultifying influences of folks who think that coming down on CSAs and small farms too tiny to certify as Demeter is "protecting" us all. Forget Demeter. Join the ABA. Your help and participation will be greatly appreciated. Best, Hugh Lovel <><><> Dear Hugh: Thanks for your posting, sorry for the delay; I was on the road. Are you serious?, I do not have a love affair with the established and proven, otherwise I would not be interested in Biodynamics!!!!. But I am indeed very interested in the serious and well supported. The people you do mention by name as being part of the ABA are directly related to you and Greg, so sorry but still to me the ABA is you and Greg!!!!. In October 1999 at Claymont's conference you offered that the ABA magazine, newsletter, or whatever the name of the ABA publication is, was going to be delivered by the next month, you were even passing on subscription info, 2 years latter I have'nt seen anything published yet by ABA. But on the other hand Biodynamics is the oldest "organic" magazine in the US, isn't? and it must be a good one since you have published articles there yourself. Demeter has about 50 certified farms in the US, I agree, VERY FEW. How many do ABA has? who are they?, where are the farms located?, what do they produce?, or is this info also restricted from the public?. Demeter publishes the list of its certified farms and related info at least once a year in "The Voice of Demeter". So please tell me in what specific ways is the ABA more active than the BDA? As for alleged problems between Spiritual Food and Demeter, I do not have "draft" versions of any "protests" or any other "draft" information. I can only refer to statements that can be verified. Sorry I do not especulate, so I'll have to wait until either Anne Mendentall or Victor say something in public, otherwise I could be at risk of manipulating info. BTW why would Victor's consumers call you instead of calling Spiritual Foods directly for information?, I do not understand the logic here? I like to consume Demeter certified products whenever I can find them because it is a guarantee that the products were handled and grown under the minimum set of guidelines proposed by Rudolf Steiner 76 years ago and that constitute the foundation of the worldwide Biodynamic Farming and Agriculture movement. At this moment in time I am not ready to say that the application of the BD preps "subtle energies" through radionic machines of "field broadcasters" is equivalent to the real application of the preps, so that I rather stick with Demeter certification and traditional BD practices if I want "Biodynamic food". As I said I am interested in the serious and well supported. Time, experience and research will tell if you and Greg have a superior method to traditional Biodynamics. At this time it is simply different. I do not understand why, if you and Greg claim to have a superior approach to the one supported by the BDA, don't you go your own way, create your own organization, with your own set of rules and guidelines, instead of keep on attacking organizations and persons that are simply doing there job within the framework imposed by the guidelines of their established organizations????. Why don't you start the "Hughdynamic" method for example and get on with your work and life? Instead of assuming responsability for "everyone" in protecting the name "Biodynamic". I for one, can take care of myself, so thanks for you kind disposition, but no thanks friend. BTW how naive do you think I am? Warmly and respectfuly. Guillermo <><><> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:56:49 -0500 Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group From: Hugh Lovel Subject: Re: File: "SANET-MG POSTINGS" Dear Guillermo, Practically every time I correspond with Greg I ask what the hold-up is with the newsletter. I'm no more thrilled about the delays than you are. > >Demeter has about 50 certified farms in the US, I agree, VERY FEW. How >many do ABA has? who are they?, where are the farms located?, what do they >produce?, or is this info also restricted from the public?. Demeter >publishes the list of its certified farms and related info at least once a >year in "The Voice of Demeter". I'm not aware of the ABA certifying farms as biodynamic. I might add that from all I've been able to tell Demeter has more like 20 instead of 50 certified farms. The way organic certification has gone I think the certification issue is dead and folks just haven't realized it yet. I myself am going back to standing on my reputation without certification of any kind. People can taste my stuff and they'll know more about its quality than any certification mark can tell them. If they see my farm logo on the food the taste will help them remember to buy again when they see my label again. I don't ship outside my locality anyway so what does certification mean for me? As for selling through Victor, which I would consider if he resumes his service without reference to Demeter and biodynamic, I would sell by my own reputation without certification. My reputation for quality is so good I can only gain by standing on it. > >So please tell me in what specific ways is the ABA more active than the BDA? This is unfair as it should be obvious that a fledgling effort that hasn't yet gotten its first newsletter out cannot possibly be as well organized as something that has been around 60 years or so. The reason for starting it, however, is that in 60 years there should have been somewhat more progress than the BDA has managed. Heck, in the past 7 years or so the BDA has shrunk from somewhere towards 2000 members to under 1,000. It's gone downhill under the likes of Anne Mendenhall, Chuck Beedy and Jean Yeager. With such a moribund record it will either fall by the wayside and nothing take its place or something must arise that does take its place. Do you have any ideas? Greg's thrown in the towel at this point. > > >As for alleged problems between Spiritual Food and Demeter, I do not have >"draft" versions of any "protests" or any other "draft" information. I can >only refer to statements that can be verified. Sorry I do not especulate, >so I'll have to wait until either Anne Mendentall or Victor say something >in public, otherwise I could be at risk of manipulating info. BTW why >would Victor's consumers call you instead of calling Spiritual Foods >directly for information?, I do not understand the logic here? These are people who belong to my CSA that I sent them to Victor. When Victor ceased operating who could they call? They called me, of course. They were shocked when I told them of the behavior of Demeter with its trademark of the term "biodynamic" and Anne's demands of Victor. I had never mentioned the wierd agressiveness of Demeter to any of them before in the hope that Demeter would come to its senses before doing such rask deeds. Alas it was not so and they had to find out the hard way. Too bad. > >I like to consume Demeter certified products whenever I can find them >because it is a guarantee that the products were handled and grown under >the minimum set of guidelines proposed by Rudolf Steiner 76 years ago and >that constitute the foundation of the worldwide Biodynamic Farming and >Agriculture movement. At this moment in time I am not ready to say that >the application of the BD preps "subtle energies" through radionic machines >of "field broadcasters" is equivalent to the real application of the preps, >so that I rather stick with Demeter certification and traditional BD >practices if I want "Biodynamic food". As I said I am interested in the >serious and well supported. Time, experience and research will tell if you >and Greg have a superior method to traditional Biodynamics. At this time >it is simply different. All one has to do is taste food to have a clear idea of its quality. As my first chemistry prof told us at the beginning of our course, taste and smell are two of the best methods of chemical analysis ever developed. You get the whole picture all in one analytical test. Many of the growers who have marketed their stuff under Demeter's label were growing superior products before Demeter ever certified them. This is true for Bob Steffan's oats, Bruce Walton's apples, Jeff Poppen's potatoes and many other grower's products. These growers were exceeding Demeter's requirements before Demeter came along and they will even if they find they have to abandon Demeter and find another route to consumers. Demeter hasn't been any guarantee of anything really. I can't think of any grower who was brought up to producing high quality in this country by Demeter. On the other hand people from Europe who were acquainted with Demeter in Europe, which has hundred of certified growers and assists thenm in attaining quality and a superior market edge come to America and expect the American Demeter to be like the European one. Wrong assumption. There is almost nothing similar about them but the name and the fact that there are a few biodynamic growers in this country who know how to produce quality that have tried up until now to get something worthwhile going with an American Demeter Association. As best as I can tell these growers are being thrown to the dogs in the effort to secure the Demeter label for biodynamic wines--which is deplorable at best. > >I do not understand why, if you and Greg claim to have a superior approach >to the one supported by the BDA, don't you go your own way, create your >own organization, with your own set of rules and guidelines, instead of >keep on attacking organizations and persons that are simply doing there job >within the framework imposed by the guidelines of their established >organizations????. Why don't you start the "Hughdynamic" method for >example and get on with your work and life? Instead of assuming >responsability for "everyone" in protecting the name "Biodynamic". I for >one, can take care of myself, so thanks for you kind disposition, but no >thanks friend. I've been in biodynamics for 25 years, which is a lot longer than Chuck Beedy or Jean Yeager. I've farmed all that time and gotten better and better and better at it. Why should I be told I cannot use the term biodynamic any more is what I'm asking. Why would I want to start up the "Hughdynamic" method? That doesn't make sense. I'm not some upstart with a superficial grasp of the method. Just the opposite. I know more about how biodynamics works than 90 so percent of the folks that are involved in it, and certainly much more than those running the BDA and Demeter organizations. I'm a better farmer and a more avid student of the method. Why should they be allowed to take the terminology away from me? I don't buy into that for a second. It's Demeter's rhetoric that they are "protecting the name Biodynamic for everyone" not mine. The way you write here you act like that's my line. My line is I'm defending my right to use the term. I have a right to use it. As far as I'm concerned you can use it too, of course. Demeter is saying that unless they are paid they aren't letting anyone use the term--which is a travesty. In a petty, little way they are behaving like their big brother, the USDA in regard to the term organic. All of which leads me to conclude that both organic AND biodynamic certification are on their way to the graveyard in the US. Demeter has copied the USDA behavior instead of setting an example of what should be going on. As I've said elsewhere this shows they haven't the moral authority to be custodians of Steiner's legacy. > >BTW how naive do you think I am? > >Warmly and respectfuly. > >Guillermo Sorry. I DO think you are a bit naive. I can understand you want to think the best of Demeter and are in your own way sticking up for Demeter. I think that is naive. The fact that Demeter received an exclusive trademark on the word biodynamic, which they had to apply for several times before they were granted it, suggests they somehow portrayed themselves as having some exclusive RIGHT to it. And it is a term that has been around far longer than Demeter. One has to wonder what fictions they presented to the Patent and Trademark Office. I myself have used the term biodynamic in marketing my produce long before the Demeter Association got their corporate charter in Massachusets. I believe they had to have lied on their application to get the trademark, but since I don't have a copy of the application or any proof positive I can only suspect this. But why would you disregard what I say in this and stick up for Demeter? I think you are a bit naive to do so, but oh well, I don't have to let that get in the way of appreciating your many other qualities, do I? You probably think I am a bit hot headed yourself, and do you let that get in the way of what you do admire and respect about me? Shucks! Best wishes, Hugh Lovel WISCONSIN WORKSHOPS! For more about Horn Clay and how to grow corn as a soil improvement crop without nitrogen fertilizers and get high yields of the finest quality HUGH LOVEL will be giving two workshops in Random Lake, Wisconsin--BASIC BIODYNAMICS, February 23rd and 24th, and ADVANCED BIODYNAMICS March 2nd and 3rd. $125 per person per workshop, meals included, couples $200. For more information contact Hugh Lovel, 706 745 6056 or Bob Klavetter, 414 265 5683. <><><> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:43:31 -0700 Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group From: Ted Rogers Subject: Re: File: "SANET-MG POSTINGS" Content-Type: text/plain Well Hugh, I see that the sand box wars continue; I tend to agree with you that certification is probably dead, time will tell. You said: "Demeter is saying that unless they are paid they aren't letting anyone use the term--which is a travesty. In a petty, little way they are behaving like their big brother, the USDA in regard to the term organic." Now Hugh you know very well that it was not USDA but was rather a consortium of the organic industry, consumer groups and environmentalists who insisted on a national organic program under USDA auspices. The statute (OFPA) is quite clear about what would happen to the term organic and USDA did not support the statute, nor take part in writing it (one of many reasons that it is so oblique and does not express the principles of organiculture at all....) By the way neither the industry nor organic consumers have yet to pay one cent toward support of the program. Cost of developing the program has been payed by the American tax payer. I refuse to guess at the cost, so far, but know that it has to exceed 8 M. Best, Ted <><><> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:26:48 -0500 Reply-To: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group Sender: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: File: "SANET-MG POSTINGS" In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I refuse to guess at the cost, so far, but know that it has to exceed 8 M. > >Best, > >Ted Well, Ted, the cost could have been reduced substantially, I would think, if everone involved would have been paid the salary rates we organic farmers pay ourselves!! I've heard that the current administration is going to kill USDA involvement in organic certification. What have you heard? -Allan Balliett