From mmiller@pcsia.com Sat Mar 11 19:56:34 2000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 10:27:39 -0600 From: mmiller@pcsia.com To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Subject: manure usage on certified organic farms Here is some background information by Russ Bullock from when this topic was discussed last September. Mike Miller "Enteric bacteria (from the Family Enterobacteraceae, including Enterobacter, Shigella, Escherichia, and Salmonella species) are found in soils amended with both organic and synthetic fertility amendments (research that I have been involved with show that on average, after amendment of soil with organic amendments such as cattle manure, swine manure, and different kinds of composts, a spike of enteric bacteria occurs, with between 1*10 to log 6.4-8.1, or more than 1000000 to 100000000 colony forming units, CFU, per gram of soil occurring in soils). Often populations will decline over time in soils amended with organic amendments, while increasing in soils amended with synthetic fertilizers, and over studies have found no significant difference over time in soils regardless of amendment type (1*10 to log 7.2-7.4 CFU's per gram soil). The major point I want to make is that even in soils _never_ (to my knowledge, and one study was conducted on experimental research stations) amended with organic amendments enteric bacteria are _Always_ present. The major question is whether the populations present are pathogenic to people. For the most part, the answer must be no. If pathogenic enteric bacteria were always present in soil, and since most soils (regardless of fertilizer type used) contain enteric bacteria, more food-borne illnesses (on fresh vegetables and fruit) would be attributed to them. Pathogenic enteric bacteria are accustomed (and thrive) in the gut of vertebrates (both warm- and cold-blooded organisms), usually with temps at 37 degrees C (for mammalian pathogens), and an abundant food source. The soil is an oligotrophic environment of highly variable temps and food availability, rarely meeting the optima for growth and development needed for our pathogenic friends. Any organic amendment (regardless of composting, although composted organic amendments have many advantages over uncomposted manures, not the least of which is smell) that is incorporated into the soil and left alone until harvest (2 to 3 months for most vegetables, longer for other crops) few if any pathogenic enteric bacteria will likely remain." To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From dmhinds@acnet.net Sat Mar 11 20:05:15 2000 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:00:10 -0600 From: Douglas Hinds To: Bart Hall / Bluestem Associates Cc: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu Subject: Re: Manure usage on certified organic farms Hi Bart and saneteers, Saturday, March 11, 2000, 7:32:06 AM, you wrote what you wrote and I agree with your logic. On the subject of composting, I strongly suggest that vermi-composting be given preference. Feed the organic material to earthworms and the worms will finish the job, greatly enriching the end result in the process. (Depending on the inputs, milling may or may not be in order). Douglas *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** BA> On Fri, 10 Mar 00 22:34:47 -0500, kandmhfarm@sprintmail.com wrote: >>food, it is essential to consider how current organic standards require >>certified organic producers to handle manure as a fertility amendment. >>It is obvious that under organic standards, raw manure can NEVER be >>applied in such a way that it is in contact with food soon destined for >>human consumption. BA> So what about the "manure tea" commonly used on many small organic BA> farms for a kick of soluble nitrogen? Then there is all the alleged BA> "sheet composting" (spreading raw manure in a thin layer on the ground BA> and pretending that is composting). And the garden chickens ('bug BA> patrol') you see on some small organic farms. BA> Frankly, of the few organic farmers I've seen who actually "compost," BA> the majority do a really lousy job. And the stuff in California that BA> passes for "composted" chicken manure (often used in vegetable BA> production) makes me reluctant to buy any "organic" produce from BA> California. BA> There *are* good organic growers out there, who do a proper job of BA> composting. I've said on this list before that in my fairly BA> considerable organic inspection experience only about 5% of the growers BA> are really good. Half are just plain lousy, and not only do they not BA> know how to compost, most are stubbornly uninterested in learning how BA> to do. BA> Some of the worst are the philosopher-farmers, tragically stuck in BA> about 1974, and defining themselves in terms of being an organic BA> farmer. Therefore, of course, since they are (by their own definition) BA> an organic farmer, anything they do has to be organic (because they, an BA> organic farmer, did it). And since they also define organic as the BA> pinnacle of sustainability and healthiness (neither of which it is), BA> all organic practices are sustainable and healthy. Since they are BA> organic, everything they do is as sustainable and as healthy as it can BA> possibly be. BA> Such unteachable hearts do their consumers (and ultimately the BA> industry) a great disservice. When organic standards are seen as an BA> obstacle by the grower, and they are seen as such in many cases, we've BA> got a problem. Wayne Martin, for many years chair of the Kansas OCIA BA> certification comittee, and more recently chair of OCIA's International BA> Certification Committee, has said (quoted with permission) "The BA> industry's biggest problem in the next few years will be to ensure BA> grower compliance with the standards already in effect --- particularly BA> for rotations, soil-building, manure management, and record-keeping." BA> Existing organic standards for manure management are frequently BA> ignored, circumvented, or even (on occasion) subverted. As with the BA> people in eastern Canada who *died* from eating BA> sheep-manure-contaminated organic sauerkraut (listeria), there are more BA> organic manure disasters just waiting to give Mr. Avery the ammunition BA> he needs. BA> Bart To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail