From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!paladin.american.edu!auvm!wrathal Fri Mar 4 11:34:09 EST 1994 Article: 27333 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!paladin.american.edu!auvm!wrathal Organization: The American University - University Computing Center Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 13:23:07 EST From: Message-ID: <94062.132307WRATHAL@auvm.american.edu> Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Zoysia Grass Lawn ??? References: Lines: 25 Status: O X-Status: In article , draziw@netcom.com (Ryan) says: > >In a handyman mag I read, I see an ad for "Zoysia Grass Lawn" all the >time. Anyone ever seen it in person? Is it half as good as they claim? >It sounds interesting. >it actualy says "Not shipped outside USA or WA or OR". Hmmm I have written about this on the net before, and am beginning to sound like a real grouch, but it is one of my pet peeves. About 6 years ago now, I took some Roundup to a very healthy Zoysia back lawn, killed it all, tilled it under and planted in Fescue. The problems of Zoysia (in Washington, D.C.) are: 1. It goes dormant (and brown) in October and stays that way until late April 2. It has a number of insect pests 3. I grows like crazy in the summer, when it needs to be cut about every five days. When it is 95 outside, with 95% humidity, I prefer to be fishing. 4. You have to be alert to its invasion (underground) into flower borders, etc. 5. I did not like the texture! Neither did my wife's cats. They won't go near the stuff. 6. It required dethatching every year or so. 7. The clippings are much more difficult to decompose than turf grasses, and so there is gread difficulty in having them left on the lawn and also in the compost pile. To me, this was the deciding factor. So, take it for what it is worth - I hated that lawn, and am glad I did it. Dick Wrathall From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london Fri Mar 4 11:34:11 EST 1994 Article: 27334 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: rec.gardens,sci.agriculture,bionet.plants Subject: Tangerine-Mandarin FAQ (new-from:Rick Harrison,hrick@world.std.com) Date: 3 Mar 1994 18:49:28 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 990 Message-ID: <2l5bfo$okt@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: calypso.oit.unc.edu Summary: Expires: Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:27334 sci.agriculture:355 bionet.plants:2495 Status: O X-Status: A DIRECTORY OF MANDARINS / TANGERINES AND THEIR HYBRIDS 1994.03 Rick Harrison, PO Box 54-7014, Orlando FL 32854, USA Internet e-mail: hrick@world.std.com Mandarins/tangerines are citrus fruits and trees of the species _Citrus_reticulata_ Blanco. They are distinguished from other citrus species by the relatively loose skin of the fruits, the relative ease with which the segments can be separated, and (in most cultivars) the green cotyledons. Most varieties also contain chemical compounds not found in other citrus species: _thymol_ in the leaves and _tangeretin_ in the fruits. Some experts consider the varieties King, Satsuma, Cleopatra and Ponkan to be separate species unto themselves. I have a personal fondness for mandarins. This document is my attempt to organize the information I've found about the known varieties. If you live in an area that doesn't have hard freezes, you can grow tangerine trees outdoors; they usually require little attention after they have established themselves. My method for installing a potted tree: Pick a sunny site; dig a larger hole than necessary; stir some composted cow manure and just a small dash of slow-release fertilizer containing trace minerals into the soil; replace some of the soil so that the hole is the correct depth for planting the tree. (The rootball's height/depth in relation to the ground surface should be the same after installation as it was in the pot.) Loosen and spread the small roots on the outside of the rootball; insert the tree, fill in the rest of the hole, and water thoroughly while gently tamping down the soil to eliminate air pockets. In colder areas, mandarins can be grown in greenhouses, or in portable containers which are kept outdoors until freezing weather arrives, then brought indoors to a sunlit location. For trees that will have to be wintered in a garage or other unheated area, satsuma on trifoliate rootstock is the best choice. Regarding pest control, the owners of large groves are convinced that it's impossible to grow citrus without frequent use of insecticides, fungicides and herbicides. However, many people in Florida grow a few citrus trees around their homes and give them no attention whatsoever -- no pesticides, little or no pruning, not even any fertilizer -- and they still enjoy reasonably good harvests. My hypothesis is that the over-use of fertilizer in commercial groves leads to their dependence on pesticides. Over-fertilization causes trees to grow at an unnatural rate, and the tender new growth of citrus is most attractive to aphids, mites and other insects. These insects are the method of transportation of most of the viral diseases that affect citrus. When it comes to flavor, I have sampled about 18 varieties and Dancy is still my favorite. Dancy tends to be tart and acidic in November, has a rich blend of sugars and acids in December, and becomes very sweet by January, assuming the weather has been favorable. Dancy seems to reach its peak around the time of the winter solstice; the peel and flesh are very aromatic at that time, and the mix of sugars and acids is complex and delicious. I'd like to hear from other tangerine fanatics: what are your favorite varities? do you freeze juice or make preserves? what lengths do you go to in order to grow tangerines in cold climates? what do you think about commercial practices such as "de-greening" and waxing? the list of varieties is divided thus: Mandarins Tangelos (mandarin X grapefruit/pummelo crosses) Tangors (tangerine X orange crosses) Complex Hybrids Lemandarins (mandarin X lemon crosses) hardiness = tolerance to cold (the tree, not the fruit); season = when the fruit is ripe (this varies depending on climate); holds = how well the fruit lasts on the tree after maturing; size, shape, base, apex, etc. = description of fruit variety: category: hardiness: tree: leaves: season: holds: size: shape: base: apex: axis: color: surface: rind: oil glands: segments: pulp: vesicles: flavor: seeds: history: notes: +-----------+ | mandarins | +-----------+ variety: Beauty (a.k.a. Beauty of Glen Retreat) category: mandarin tree: thornless, branches slender and willowy leaves: small season: Dec Jan size: medium, avg. diam. 2.5, avg. height 2.25 shape: flattened oblate, segmentation visible apex: flat or very slightly depressed axis: open, 1/2 inch or less diam. color: red-orange surface: glossy rind: very thin, 1/16 oil glands: large, elliptical/oval, conspicuous segments: 10 or more pulp: melting, orange vesicles: broad, blunt flavor: rich; resembles Dancy but is distinct; "vinous" - Hume seeds: few, small history: discov Australia 1888; distrib USDA 1893; formerly grown in FL notes: "it has disappeared from cultivation" - Webber et al 1943 variety: Campeona category: mandarin season: mid-season to late size: large shape: broadly oblate surface: pebbled texture rind: adherent but peelable pulp: orange color flavor: rich seeds: many notes: grown in Argentina variety: Carvalhais category: mandarin season: early holds: well size: medium to large rind: medium thick, tough, strongly adherent history: originated in Portugal variety: Changsha category: mandarin (grows true-to-type from seed) hardiness: very hardy season: early size: small-to-medium flavor: good seeds: numerous notes: resembles Satsuma variety: Clementine (a.k.a. Algerian) category: mandarin (possibly a chance hybrid of unknown parentage) tree: medium, spreading or weeping habit, nearly thornless leaves: dark green above and lighter on underside; dense foliage season: Dec Jan Feb holds: well size: medium, diam. 2 to 2.5, height 2 to 2.75 shape: globose to ovoid, somewhat irregular base: evenly rounded to slightly necked, with radiating furrows apex: depressed axis: large, hollow color: deep orange-red surface: smooth, glossy, slightly pitted rind: medium thick, 1/8 to 3/16, loose oil glands: prominent, large, elliptical, depressions over primary ones segments: 8 to 12, slight adherence pulp: tender, melting, deep orange vesicles: short, broad flavor: sweet seeds: 3 to 6, medium size, oblong to fusiform; embryo pistache green history: discov in Algeria, came to FL 1909 notes: fruits hold well on tree; best when pollinated by Dancy, Kinnow, Orlando, Valencia; produces best fruit in deserts of California and Arizona; seedless in some climates variety: Cleopatra (a.k.a. Spice) category: mandarin tree: low, spreading, dense foliage, attractive leaves: small, dark green season: Jan Feb size: small, up to 2 inch diam. shape: oblate base: flat apex: depressed, generally navel marked color: deep red-orange surface: somewhat rough rind: very loose, up to 1/8 thick oil glands: small, numerous segments: 15 pulp: coarse-grained, orange vesicles: broad, blunt flavor: tart seeds: numerous, small history: came from Jamaica to Florida before 1888 notes: used as rootstock for other varieties; possibly identical with Ponki, which is used as a rootstock in Japan variety: Cravo category: mandarin season: early size: medium shape: obovate to subglobose color: deep orange rind: medium thickness, somewhat rough, loosely adherent flavor: juicy, mild notes: grown in Brazil variety: Dancy (a.k.a. Moragne, Bijou) category: mandarin (usually grows true-to-type from seed) hardiness: hardy tree: medium-large, erect, nearly thornless leaves: broadly lanceolate, 3 to 4.75 inches long season: Nov Dec Jan holds: fair size: medium, diam. 2.25 to 3, height 1.5 to 2.125 shape: oblate base: usually necked, more or less corrugated apex: broadly depressed axis: large, hollow color: deep red-orange surface: smooth, glossy rind: thin, 1/8 to 3/16, leathery, easily removed, not baggy until old oil glands: small segments: 10 to 14, easily separated pulp: melting, tender, dark orange vesicles: short, broad, relatively large flavor: rich and sprightly, pleasant aroma seeds: 6 to 20, short, blunt or beaked; cotyledons pistache green history: introduced into cultivation 1871 notes: Does best in Florida. Recently this variety's susceptibility to alternaria has been a problem in commercial groves. variety: Dweet category: mandarin (hybrid: Dancy x Mediterranean) tree: medium, open habit season: late holds: poorly size: medium-large shape: ovoid with a slight neck color: red-orange rind: adherent flavor: rich seeds: many notes: does well in coastal and interior California variety: Emperor category: mandarin season: Nov Dec Jan Feb size: large, avg. diam. 2.5, height 1.75 shape: oblate, sometimes has a "neck" color: pale orange base: sometimes necked rind: moderately thin, easy to peel segments: 9 to 10, sometimes irregular pulp: pale orange color seeds: 10 to 16, long and pointed notes: widely grown in Australia early in 20th century variety: Encore category: mandarin (hybrid: King x Mediterranean) tree: medium, upright/spreading habit, few or no thorns season: Mar Apr May holds: well color: yellow-orange, speckled with dark orange spots rind: easily peeled flavor: rich seeds: many history: introduced by University of California at Riverside variety: Fortune category: mandarin (hybrid: Clementine x Dancy) season: late variety: Fremont category: mandarin (hybrid: Clementine x Ponkan) season: early holds: well flavor: rich history: developed by J R Furr, released 1964 variety: Honey category: mandarin (hybrid: King x Mediterranean) tree: medium-to-large, vigorous, spreading season: early holds: well size: small to medium color: yellow-orange rind: easily peeled flavor: very sweet seeds: many notes: beware of name confusion; Murcott tangors are sometimes called "Honey tangerines"; Minneola is a.k.a. Honeybell. Honey is a commercial variety in California. variety: Iyo category: mandarin season: midseason color: deep orange flavor: juicy, rich notes: grown in Japan variety: Kara category: mandarin (hybrid: Owari Satsuma x King) hardiness: sensitive tree: medium, vigorous, spreading, nearly thornless leaves: large, dark green, with drooping habit season: Mar Apr May holds: fair size: medium, diam. 2 to 3, height 2.125 to 2.75 shape: medium oblate to nearly globose, often somewhat conical base: often with small neck apex: considerably flattened, often depressed axis: semi-hollow color: orange surface: moderately grained rind: thin-to-medium, 1/8 to 1/5, loose, tough oil glands: numerous, medium size; oil is abundant, aromatic segments: 10 to 13, easily separated pulp: tender, yellow-orange vesicles: medium size, stout flavor: rich flavor, strong pleasant unique aroma seeds: 12 to 20, plump, yellow-tinged or yellow-green cotyledons history: H B Frost, CA Citrus Experiment Station, 1935 notes: best in interior California, sometimes grown for its juice variety: Kincy category: mandarin (hybrid: King x Dancy) notes: distinctive, excellent flavor according to Webber variety: King (a.k.a. King of Siam) category: mandarin (although some call it an orange) hardiness: hardy tree: upright, medium size, relatively open foliage leaves: large, 3 to 4.25, broadly lanceolate, margins slightly crenate season: Mar Apr May size: large, diam. 2.5 to 3.75, height 2.25 to 3.5 shape: oblate to near spherical base: rounded or somewhat necked, wrinkled with short radiating furrows apex: flattened or depressed, marked by characteristic areole axis: large, 0.75 to 1.25, hollow, stellate color: yellow-orange to orange surface: rough and bumpy rind: thick, 3/16 to 5/16, tight but easily removed oil glands: large, depressions over main ones give finely pitted appearance segments: 10 to 12, regular, easily separated pulp: dark orange, tender, melting vesicles: fusiform, medium in size flavor: rich and sprightly seeds: 5 to 15 or more, fusiform, plump, beaked, white cotyledons history: from Saigon to Riverside CA 1880; to Winter Park FL 1882 notes: susceptible to sun scald due to thin foliage, limb breakage due to over-bearing; might be identical to Kunenbo grown in Japan variety: Kinneloa category: mandarin size: medium, up to 3 inch diam. shape: roundish-oblate apex: small dot in a medium small basin color: red-orange surface: undulating, rough rind: loose, 1/8 inch thick oil glands: numerous, depressed; oil pungent, aromatic pulp: tender vesicles: small to medium, irregular flavor: ordinary seeds: 10, plump, straw colored history: probably originated on Kinneloa Ranch east of Pasadena CA notes: "Tanaka considers this variety to be identical with the Ponkan. The Kinneloa... has apparently disappeared from cultivation." - Webber et al 1943 variety: Kinnow category: mandarin (hybrid: King x Willow-leaf) hardiness: very hardy tree: vigorous, large, erect, dense leaves: medium size, rather thin and pliable season: Jan Feb Mar Apr holds: well size: medium, diam. 2.125 to 3, height 2 to 2.5 shape: slightly oblate base: flattened, often slightly depressed apex: flattened, often slightly depressed axis: solid to semi-hollow color: deep yellow-orange surface: smooth, glossy, easily scars rind: thin, 1/8, leathery, fairly easy to peel oil glands: conspicuous, oil is abundant and aromatic segments: 9 to 10, fairly easy to separate pulp: moderately tender, deep yellow-orange vesicles: medium size, stout flavor: rich, high sugar and moderate acid, unique pleasant aroma seeds: 12 to 24, medium size, yellowish cotyledons history: H B Frost, CA Citrus Experiment Station, 1935 notes: outstanding flavor, attractive appearance variety: Kino Kuni (a.k.a. Kinokuni) category: mandarin tree: compactly headed leaves: small season: Nov Dec size: small to medium shape: flattened oblate base: usually creased or roughened with 4 or 5 ridges apex: broad, shallow depression color: orange to red-orange surface: rough rind: 1/8 inch or thinner, tight but peelable oil glands: conspicuous, depressed segments: 13, irregular pulp: melting, coarse, orange vesicles: short, broad, blunt flavor: sprightly, acidity and sweetness well blended seeds: 13 to 14, top shaped, beaked; green cotyledons variety: Mandalina category: mandarin history: from Lebanon notes: resembles Dancy but has more seeds, lower quality fruit variety: Naartje (a.k.a. Natal) category: mandarin season: mid-season size: medium to medium-large rind: strongly adherent seeds: many flavor: rich notes: a commercial variety in South Africa; ships well variety: Oneco category: mandarin tree: large, vigorous, erect leaves: 2 to 3.125 inches long, fragrant when bruised season: Jan Feb Mar holds: well size: medium to large, diam. 2.5 to 3.5, height 2.25 to 3 shape: oblate to slightly pyriform base: mainly necked, somewhat furrowed apex: has a broad, shallow depression axis: large, hollow color: yellow-orange surface: glossy, somewhat rough; become bumpy when old rind: thin, 1/8 to 3/16, loose oil glands: small but conspicuous segments: 8 to 12, easily separated pulp: tender, melting, yellow-orange vesicles: medium size, short and broad flavor: sweet seeds: 5 to 12, small, beaked; cotyledons pale green, nearly white history: seed from India 1888; distrib Royal Palm Nursery of Oneco FL notes: "not surpassed in quality by any other... mandarin" - Hume; "resembles the Ponkan closely" - Jackson variety: Pixie category: mandarin (offspring of Kincy) tree: medium-large, with erect open habit season: Apr May Jun holds: fair size: small to medium color: yellow-orange rind: easily peeled flavor: mild seeds: none variety: Ponkan (a.k.a. Warnurco, Chinese Honey Orange, Batangas) category: mandarin hardiness: hardy? tender? tree: small, upright season: Nov Dec holds: fair size: large, diam. 2.75 to 3.25 shape: globose to oblate base: flattened or somewhat necked, with irregular furrows apex: deeply depressed, with radiating furrows, sometimes with navel axis: large, hollow color: orange surface: smooth or finely papillate rind: medium thick, loosely adherent oil glands: prominent, not uniform segments: 9 to 12, easily separated pulp: tender, bright, near salmon-orange vesicles: large, plump, many attached to side walls flavor: sweet, aromatic seeds: few, small, plump, nearly smooth; green embryos history: from China to FL 1892 notes: does not ship well; called Suntara in India variety: Satsuma (a.k.a. Unshiu) category: mandarin hardiness: very hardy (mature, dormant trees hardy to 12'F) tree: small to medium, spreading, slow-growing leaves: (depends on strain) season: Sep Oct Nov holds: fair size: medium to large shape: oblate to spherical or slightly conical axis: hollow color: orange to yellow-orange surface: slightly rough rind: thin, 1/8 to 3/16, tight but easily peeled oil glands: large and numerous pulp: tender, melting, ochraceous orange or salmon vesicles: broad flavor: good, low acid seeds: few history: originated in Japan circa 1600, Japan to USA 1876 notes: pulp ripens before rind changes color; there are many different strains, including Owari, Wase, Ikeda, Mikado; rootstock and soil influence fruit quality; mutations and throwbacks are common; often grown on trifoliate stock to accentuate dormancy variety: Wilking category: mandarin (hybrid: King x Willow-leaf) hardiness: hardy tree: medium, vigorous, columnar, dense leaves: medium size, up to 4.75 inches long season: Jan Feb Mar Apr holds: fair size: medium, diam. 2.125 to 3.125, height 1.75 to 3 shape: oblate base: flattened, slightly if at all depressed apex: flattened, medium-depressed axis: semi-hollow color: deep yellow-orange surface: coarsely grained to nearly smooth rind: thin to medium, 1/8 to 1/6, brittle, loose oil glands: medium size, numerous, conspicuous; oil abundant, aromatic segments: 9 to 13, easily separated pulp: moderately tender, rich yellow-orange vesicles: medium size, stout flavor: rich, good, high sugar, moderate acid, distinctive aroma seeds: 10 to 17, mostly plump, yellow-green cotyledons history: developed by H Frost, CA Citrus Experiment Station, 1935 notes: alternate-bearing (heavy production every other year) variety: Willow-leaf (a.k.a. Mediterranean, China) category: mandarin (grows true-to-type from seeds) hardiness: hardy tree: small to medium, broad, with fine willowy branches leaves: small, narrow, lanceolate season: Nov Dec Jan holds: poorly size: medium, diam. 2 to 2.5, height 1.75 to 2.25 shape: oblate to globose base: variable apex: depressed, slightly wrinkled axis: large, diam. 1/2 to 3/4, hollow color: yellow-orange surface: smooth, glossy, segmentation visible rind: thin, 1/16 to 1/8, loose oil glands: conspicuous, with depressions over primary glands segments: 10 to 12 pulp: tender, orange vesicles: short and plump flavor: sweet, flavorful, distinctly aromatic seeds: 15 to 20 history: from Italy to Louisiana circa 1845 notes: needs a hot climate for best fruit +----------+ | tangelos | +----------+ variety: K-Early category: probably a tangelo season: early -- the earliest mandarin notes: developed by H J Webber and W T Swingle; never officially introduced by the USDA, but is grown by unscrupulous growers who get a high price for early fruit; the fruit is of poor quality, low in both sugar and acid, often bitter. variety: Minneola (a.k.a. Honeybell) category: tangelo (Duncan x Dancy) hardiness: hardy tree: medium-large, vigorous, round leaves: dark green, large season: Dec Jan Feb holds: well size: large shape: globose-ovoid with distinct "neck" color: red-orange rind: thick, brittle flavor: rich, tangy seeds: less than 10 on average notes: best when pollinated by Dancy, Clementine, Kinnow, Temple variety: Orlando (a.k.a. Lake) category: tangelo (Duncan x Dancy) hardiness: "more cold-tolerant than Minneola" tree: dark, distinctively cupped leaves season: Nov Dec Jan size: medium-large, diam. 3.5 color: orange to yellow-orange rind: strongly adherent flavor: mildly sweet history: bred by W T Swingle in 1911, released in 1931 notes: best when pollinated by Dancy, Clementine, Kinnow, Temple; will grow in deserts of CA and AZ variety: Pearl category: tangelo (Willow-leaf x Imperial) season: early history: developed by H Frost, 1940 notes: poor quality fruit variety: Sampson category: tangelo (Dancy x unnamed grapefruit) tree: large, vigorous leaves: glossy, cupped season: Feb Mar Apr holds: well size: medium color: yellow-orange rind: thin, somewhat adherent flavor: acidic, similar to grapefruit seeds: 15 on average history: bred by W T Swingle in 1897 notes: susceptible to scab variety: Seminole category: tangelo (Dancy x Duncan) tree: medium to large, vigorous season: Feb Mar Apr holds: fair size: medium-large color: red-orange rind: easily peeled flavor: sprightly, tangy seeds: many (22 average) history: released 1931 variety: Thornton category: tangelo season: Dec Jan Feb color: light orange rind: thick, easily peeled flavor: sweet seeds: 15 average history: bred in 1899 by W T Swingle +---------+ | tangors | +---------+ variety: Ambersweet category: tangor+ ([Clementine x Orlando] x sweet orange) hardiness: moderately hardy tree: upright, moderately vigorous, small thorns season: Oct Nov Dec size: medium, 2.5 to 3.75 in. diam. shape: tapered at stem end, slightly pear-shaped overall surface: rather pebbly rind: moderately thick, easily peeled seeds: highly variable in number depending on pollination history: developed by C. J. Hearn (USDA Orlando), released 1989 notes: self-pollinating; attractive to mites; produces best fruit on Cleopatra or sour orange rootstock variety: Ellendale category: possibly a tangor season: late size: medium to large shape: oblate to globose color: orange-red seeds: many notes: grown in Australia variety: Fallglo category: mandarin (hybrid: Bower x Temple) hardiness: not very hardy tree: moderately vigorous, upright, thornless season: Oct Nov size: medium, 2.75 to 3.25 in. diam. shape: oblate color: deep red-orange rind: 1/8 to 3/16 in thick, easily peeled seeds: 20 to 40 history: bred by P. C. Reese, released by USDA 1987 notes: resistant to scab fungus; susceptible to aphids; sometimes suffers from twig and limb dieback variety: Mency category: tangor (Maltese Oval x Dancy) tree: vigorous, productive season: very early flavor: rather sour variety: Murcott category: tangor hardiness: semi-sensitive tree: medium, upright season: Jan Feb Mar size: medium color: yellow-orange surface: smooth and somewhat glossy rind: thin, tight but peelable flavor: sweet, rich seeds: 18 to 24 history: probably the result of Swingle's breeding experiments, the parent tree lost its identification tag in transit to Safety Harbor FL in 1913. notes: slightly susceptible to scab fungus and xyloporosis variety: Ortanique category: probably a tangor season: late size: large rind: thin, tight flavor: rich, juicy history: discovered in Jamaica 1920 variety: Ruddy category: tangor (King x Maltese Oval) size: large flavor: tart, aromatic variety: Tangerona category: tangor hardiness: sensitive season: Sep Oct size: small shape: roundish color: yellow-orange rind: tight flavor: good seeds: few to many, depending on pollination history: from Brazil to FL circa 1890 notes: the specimen I tasted was slightly bitter, but I don't know yet if this is typical or was caused by the stress of moving the tree to my location last year (1993) - RH variety: Tankan category: probably a tangor (parents unknown) season: medium to late size: medium to large color: deep orange surface: pebbled or somewhat wrinkled flavor: juicy, rich, sweet history: from southeast China notes: stores well, ships well variety: Temple category: probably a tangor (parents unknown) hardiness: tender tree: spreading, bushy, somewhat thorny leaves: medium size season: Jan Feb Mar Apr holds: fair size: medium-large, diam. 2.5 to 3.25, height 2.25 to 2.5 shape: oblate to spherical base: rounded or tapering to a slightly raised neck apex: somewhat depressed or nearly flat, frequently with small navel axis: mainly solid, diam. 3/8 to 1/2 color: orange to red-orange surface: slightly pebbled or rugose rind: medium thick, 1/8 to 3/16, loose and peelable, leathery oil glands: spherical to elliptical segments: 10 to 12 pulp: tender, melting, orange vesicles: medium size, fusiform flavor: rich and spicy seeds: average 20, medium, plump history: originated in Winter Park FL, distrib Buckeye Nurseries 1917 notes: somewhat susceptible to scab variety: Umatilla category: tangor (Owari Satsuma x Ruby orange) season: late size: large color: red-orange surface: smooth history: bred by W T Swingle in 1911, released in 1931 notes: excellent quality; sometimes incorrectly called a tangelo; fruit is size and shape of King +-----------------+ | complex hybrids | +-----------------+ variety: Fairchild category: hybrid: Clementine x Orlando tree: medium, rounded, dense, nearly thornless season: early holds: fair size: medium-size color: deep orange flavor: sweet, rich seeds: many history: developed by J R Furr, released 1964 notes: does best in the low deserts of California and Arizona; needs to be pollinated by other mandarins for best production variety: Lee category: hybrid: Clementine x Orlando hardiness: hardy season: Oct Nov Dec size: medium, 2.75 to 3 in. diam. shape: oblate color: yellow-orange surface: smooth rind: thin, adherent flavor: good, low acid level seeds: 10 to 25 history: developed by F E Gardner, released by USDA 1959 notes: pulp ripens before peel develops full orange color variety: Nova category: hybrid: Clementine x Orlando season: Nov Dec size: medium to large, 2.75 to 3 in. diam. shape: oblate axis: somewhat hollow color: orange surface: slightly pebbly rind: medium-thick, adherent but peelable pulp: deep orange size: medium-large seeds: 1 to 30 (varies depending on pollination) history: developed by F E Gardner, released by USDA in 1964 notes: when grown in Florida, resembles Orlando tangelo; requires cross pollination from other varieties variety: Osceola category: hybrid: Clementine x Orlando hardiness: moderately hardy tree: upright, dense foliage, nearly thornless season: Oct Nov holds: poorly size: medium, 2.25 to 2.75 in. diam. color: deep orange to coral-red surface: glossy rind: thin, leathery flavor: tangy, high sugar and high acid (disliked by some) seeds: 15 to 25 seeds history: developed by F E Gardner, released 1959 notes: cross-pollination from other varieties increases yield; susceptible to scab fungus variety: Page category: hybrid: Minneola x Clementine tree: medium, round, dense foliage, few thorns season: Nov Dec Jan holds: well size: small-to-medium shape: nearly spherical color: orange rind: medium-thin, leathery, strongly adherent flavor: rich; "great choice for fresh juice lovers" seeds: variable, 2 to 25 history: developed by Gardner & Bellows (USDA Orlando), released 1963 notes: produces best fruit when pollinated by other varieties; limited commercial potential due to small fruit size, but good for home orchards due to high quality and long season; somewhat susceptible to scab fungus disease variety: Robinson category: hybrid: Clementine x Orlando hardiness: moderately hardy tree: dense foliage season: Oct Nov Dec color: yellow-orange to orange size: medium, 2.5 to 3 in. diam. shape: oblate surface: smooth, glossy rind: thin, leathery, easily peeled flavor: mild history: developed by Gardner & Bellows, introduced in 1959 notes: best when pollinated by a tangelo or tangor; susceptible to twig and stem dieback; fruit splitting sometimes a problem variety: Sunburst category: hybrid: Robinson x Osceola hardiness: moderately hardy tree: moderately vigorous, upright and spreading, thornless leaves: dark green season: Nov Dec size: 2.5 to 3 in. diam. shape: oblate with depressed navel axis: somewhat hollow color: dark orange surface: smooth rind: thin, easily peeled segments: 11 to 14 flavor: sweet seeds: 10 to 20, pale green inside history: introduced in 1979, developed by Dr. C. Jack Hearn notes: best when pollinated by other varieties; resistant to scab, alternaria and citrus snow scale; vulnerable to citrus rust mite and Texas citrus mite +-------------+ | lemandarins | +-------------+ variety: Owarbon category: lemandarin/tangemon (Owari Satsuma x Lisbon lemon) surface: rough pulp: tender, juicy flavor: tart, aromatic seeds: few ========================================================================== +--------------+ | bibliography | +--------------+ Hume, H. Harold; Citrus fruits and their culture; 1904 Jackson, Larry K.; Citrus growing in Florida; 3rd edition, University of Florida Press, 1991 Jackson, L. K. & Futch, S. H.; Facts about specialty citrus characteristics; in: Citrus Industry, Jan 1994, Feb 1994 Ray, Richard & Walheim, Lance; Citrus -- how to select, grow and enjoy; H P Books, 1980 Sturrock, David; Fruits for southern Florida; Southeastern Printing Co, 1959 Webber & Batchelor, editors; The citrus industry -- history, botany and breeding; University of California, 1943 / end / From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!news.mentorg.com!hpbab33.mentorg.com!wv.mentorg.com!brianb Fri Mar 4 11:34:12 EST 1994 Article: 27335 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!news.mentorg.com!hpbab33.mentorg.com!wv.mentorg.com!brianb From: brianb@wv.mentorg.com (Brian Bailey) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Cotyledons Date: 3 Mar 1994 19:07:24 GMT Organization: Mentor Graphics, Wilsonville, Oregon, USA Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2l5chc$94i@hpbab.wv.mentorg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roll.wv.mentorg.com Status: O X-Status: Yesterday, when I was pricking out a bunch of seedlings, I noticed for the first time that there seems to be a consistent difference between the cotyledone and the true leaves, namely, true leaves have veins, wheras the cotyledons dont. This got me to thinking a number of questions. Is this true of all Cotyledons or are there some which I am not growing that have veins. Do all true leaves have veins... So, if the above facts are correct, why has the plant kingdom developed two completely different classes of leaves. Is one type more efficient?, easier to make, use less raw materials etc and why would one type not be sufficient. Hope there is some botanist out there that can put my mind at ease as an enquiring mind would like to know. Thanks -- Brian Bailey ================================================================================ My thoughts are sometimes my own. Other times someone says they own them, and I have no rights. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!inn Fri Mar 4 11:34:13 EST 1994 Article: 27336 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!inn From: davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: June Bugs! (thinking ahead) Date: 3 Mar 1994 19:29:00 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Site Lines: 13 Message-ID: <2l5dpsINN5l5@hpsdlss3.sdd.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdd57.sdd.hp.com X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.90.3 Status: O X-Status: I'll need this info by summer. I had a horible problem with "june bugs" last year destroying my fig tree! At least I think they were June Bugs, about a 3/4 inch long, goldish green beetle that sounds like a squad of fighter planes when they fly by. What can I do (organic only) to prevent the total loss of My fig crop this year? All help is appreciated. Thanks!!!! From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!think.com!spdcc!das-news.harvard.edu!das!hartman Fri Mar 4 11:34:14 EST 1994 Article: 27337 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!think.com!spdcc!das-news.harvard.edu!das!hartman From: hartman@das.harvard.edu (Anthony Hartman) Subject: 1994 New England Spring Flower Show Message-ID: Sender: usenet@das.harvard.edu Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:27:38 GMT Lines: 76 Status: O X-Status: The Massachusetts Horticultural Society presents the 1994 Spring Flower Show. Dates/Hours March 5-13, 1994 Bayside Exposition Center, Boston, MA Monday-Saturday: 10 a.m. - 9:30 p.m. Sunday: 10 a.m. - 6 p.m. Tickets Adults $11.00 Weekday ticket purchased at the gate; $12.00 All Weekend tickets Seniors $10.00 Weekday ticket purchased at the gate; $12.00 All Weekend tickets Children 6-12 $ 3.00 All times; under 6 are free Advance Ticket Outlets Most Stop & Shop Supermarket cashiers, florists, and courtesy desks; South Shore Plaza Information Booth; The Massachusetts Horticultural Society; Out-of-Town Ticket Agency, Harvard Square. Home Gardners Night: Tuesday March 8 5:00 - 9:00 PM The designers and builders of the show gardens will be on hand to share information New England garden features and plants. Roger Swain of the Victory Garden will speak. Daily from 10:00 to 4:00 there will be 30-40 minute lectures on garden design, perennials, native plants, composting, flower arranging, pruning, shade gardens, etc. Market Place: Retail sale of plants, garden equipment, and decorative items. Become a member of MHS to avoid the crowds. Members-Only Hours Any MHS Member may visit the Flower Show from 7-10 a.m. on the weekends and 9-10 a.m. on weekdays to see the entire show without the crowds. Marketplace booths will be open. Members' Guest Tickets These special guest tickets are $17.50, and are intended for use by non- members who accompany a member during Members-Only Hours. Members' Lounge Located at the back of the main exhibition hall, the Members' Only Bookstore Discount It's all part of being a Member. The MHS Bookstore allows Members a 10% discount on everything from books to mugs when you show your membership card. Membership Renewals Stop by the Membership Booth for a convenient way to renew your MHS membership, or to purchase a gift membership for a friend. Directions: By Train: MBTA red line to JFK/UMASS stop, Bayside Exposition Center is located one block away. Or, take an MBTA shuttle bus from the T- station to Bayside for door-to-door service; buses run every 10 minutes. By Car: Massachusetts Turnpike to Southeast Expressway, exit 15; follow Expo Center signs; ample parking available Additional Parking: New This Year: Just eight minutes south of Bayside, you'll find FREE parking at South Shore Plaza and a free shuttle bus to the Flower Show between the hours of 9 a.m. & 5 p.m. The Plaza is located at exit 6 off Rte.128. It's a special benefit to those traveling from Cape Cod, the South Shore, and Rhode Island. Miscellaneous Tips Ample parking available; wheelchair accessible; cafeteria, lounge & food bars on-site. The Management suggests you visit the Show after 4 p.m. during the week when the Hall is least crowded. And wear your most comfortable shoes! New This Year: A new coat check is conveniently located at the back of the Gardeners' Marketplace. Information: (617) 536-9280. -- Tony Hartman hartman@harvard.harvard.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!dxf6 Fri Mar 4 11:34:14 EST 1994 Article: 27338 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!dxf6 From: dxf6@po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Wanted: FICUS tree tips Date: 3 Mar 1994 20:15:59 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 19 Message-ID: <2l5ghv$231@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: dxf6@po.CWRU.Edu (Dean Fear) NNTP-Posting-Host: slc8.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: I picked up a large ficus tree, about 6 ft, for use indoors. It is in good, not great, condition. I picked it up at a local wholesaler who had it for about a month and had just received new plants so he was looking to dump it. I plan on eventually using it for a Chameleon habitat I am going to build. I am looking for any tricks to keeping this plant alive indoors, especially under totally artificial light sources during the winter. (I plan on using full spectrum lighting for the reptiles) BTW I am not at all versed in horticulture, so please include the basics on these trees too. Thanks in advance, Dean dxf6@po.cwru.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news Fri Mar 4 11:34:15 EST 1994 Article: 27339 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: HEIM@MACC.WISC.EDU (John Heim) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Dogs turds and my lawn Date: 3 Mar 1994 20:11:47 GMT Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN -- MADISON Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2l5ga3$spk@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: <2l27dm$6c8@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca> <2l30i9$hdn@nermal.cs.uoguelph.ca> <1994Mar3.022352.54838@yuma> <2l4tkf$1vj@mailer.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vms3.macc.wisc.edu X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS v1.25 In-Reply-To: frankb@cet.fsu.edu's message of 3 Mar 1994 14:53:03 GMT Status: O X-Status: In <2l4tkf$1vj@mailer.fsu.edu> frankb@cet.fsu.edu writes: > BTW, we have six Irish Setters (!) and rarely do a cleanup, but then > again we have 3 acres for them to choose favorite spots. We've thought > of cleaning up, but in a few days it has usually dried up or decomposed > by itself in the Florida sun/rain. This is getting off the subject or rec.gardens but it's a bad idea to leave dog droppings lying around. Just as we humans got a lot healthier when we began disposing of the stuff properly, so will dogs. Maybe it's not so far off topic. I know a lot of people in r.g have complaints about other people letting their dogs and cats "do it" in their yard. Besides being a damn nuisance for your neighbors it's a real health hazard for your pets. JGH From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.ssc.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!att-in!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd Fri Mar 4 11:34:16 EST 1994 Article: 27340 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.ssc.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!att-in!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) Subject: Best Pawpaws Message-ID: Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com Organization: AT&T Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 20:14:06 GMT Lines: 10 Status: O X-Status: A week or two ago someone asked what are the best pawpaw cultivars. A few days ago I spoke with Neal Peterson, one of the world's formost authorities on pawpaws, and he told me his personal favorites are "Overlease", "Mitchell", and "Taytwo". However, he pointed out that taste is subjective, and his favorites may not be everyone's. Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!ctc.com!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mm40+ Fri Mar 4 11:34:17 EST 1994 Article: 27341 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.pop.psu.edu!ctc.com!news.mic.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mm40+ From: "Marcie G. Mastracci" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Demon chameleon plants Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 15:02:26 -0500 Organization: Legal Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 17 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu Status: O X-Status: Does anyone have experience (pro or con) with the chameleon plant? (Something like Houteneia sp?) In the catalog, they appear to be beautiful, showy plants with varigated foliage in shades of green, yellow, pink & scarlet. I was thinking about getting some to use as ground cover. However, I just read a "review" of them in a Burpee book about perennials & the author simply despised them. He described them as ugly, stubborn, stinky, and almost impossible to get rid of once you have them in your garden. He also said after a short time, the varigated foliage disappeared and the leaves reverted to plain green. Has anyone ever grown these thing? Are they really plants from hell? Marcie From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail Fri Mar 4 11:34:18 EST 1994 Article: 27342 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail From: igor@access2.digex.net (Dan White) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Plumeria Question Date: 3 Mar 1994 15:46:14 -0500 Organization: Society for the Prevention of Paronomastic Defenestration Lines: 21 Message-ID: <2l5iam$dfl@access2.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: access2.digex.net Status: O X-Status: Hi, My late mother-in-law had two large pots in which she has Plumeria (the Hawaiian tree/shrub from which lei flowers come) which are growing like weeds and throwing blossoms 2 or 3 times a year. Here's the problem - they are rapidly becoming more tree-ish and less bushy. I'd like to chop it back and root the choppings, but I do not want to do it without knowing what I am doing. Can anyone out there offer advice or a pointer to same ? Post or e-mail reply. Thanx in advance. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan White ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." Calvin (Bill Waterson) From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey Fri Mar 4 11:34:19 EST 1994 Article: 27343 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: Help with mango seedling. Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <2kt624$sp8@news.bu.edu> <1453300493@cdp> Date: 3 Mar 1994 21:38:34 UTC Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: In article <1453300493@cdp> Libby Goldstein writes: >Sounds as though you need to repot. Whenever in doubt, knock the plant >out of t >the pot and check out the roots. If they've filled the pot, pot up into a pot >1 inch larger (in diameter, that is). Cut off any roots that are circling with a sharp, clean, sterile (use alcohol or bleach) knife. To repot in the same size pot, cut off about 1/4 of the soil and root mass from sides and bottom and prune the plant (if needed) at the same time. Always watch plants that have been root pruned since they may need some help getting over the stress - but generally root pruning produces a flush of new growth and guides the plant to scale back its size. Take this practice far enough, and you have bonsai. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!relay!wazoo.nswc.navy.mil!jbankos Fri Mar 4 11:34:20 EST 1994 Article: 27344 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!relay!wazoo.nswc.navy.mil!jbankos From: jbankos@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Jeffrey Bankos) Subject: Want to grow pole beans Message-ID: Keywords: Pole Beans, trellis, netting Sender: news@relay.nswc.navy.mil Organization: NSWC X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:26:49 GMT Lines: 6 Status: O X-Status: I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only planting bush types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to install trellis I can use to let the vines grow on. Can anybody tell me what they've used in the past to grow beans on? Thanks Jeffrey From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!usenet Fri Mar 4 11:34:21 EST 1994 Article: 27345 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!usenet From: white@eng.gtefsd.com (Lisa White) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Keeping cats out of the garden? (may Date: 3 Mar 1994 22:10:41 GMT Organization: GTE Federal Systems Division, GSC Lines: 60 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2l5n92$heo@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> References: <1994Mar3.135125.4153@es.dupont.com> Reply-To: white@eng.gtefsd.com NNTP-Posting-Host: packard.eng.gtefsd.com Status: O X-Status: In article 4153@es.dupont.com, molaisrj@esvx11.es.dupont.com writes: > In article , dak2@psu.edu (David A. Kolasa) writes: > > > > > > > >>I'm thinking about putting roses in the garden this spring. My cat fanatic > >>neighbor lets her 7 cats roam free, day and night, and nothing short of law > >>will force her to control them. (Believe me, I've tried, reasoned, > >>bargained, pleaded... to no avail) So what can I plant in there, along > > > >Yes, unfortunately, it seems that people who own cats think the world has to > >adjust to their pets. I despise the owners almost as much as the cats. > > > >The cats from one of my neighbor's houses (why is it ALWAYS more than one cat?) > >have decided that my welcome mat is the best place in the neighborhood to > >urinate. It is driving me crazy - the neighbors stand and watch their animals > >foul the neighborhood. We have no cat laws and our local officials are > >unresponsive. > > > >I've been thinking of catching one and impaling it on a sharp stick as a > >warning to other felines ;-D (that ought to get a new flame war started) > > > >Yesterday at the local Agway I priced Cat/Dog Repellant. It costs about $8 to > >cover 1000 sq. ft. and goes away when it rains or snows. Too expensive. > >Putting thorns in all the flower beds IS an option but not a very attractive > >one. > > > >Perhaps anti-freeze is the only answer. Other than living in stench. > > > >Why don't cat owners police each other? Its going to affect them all when the > >no cat laws are passed. > > > >There was a recent program about cats recently on the Learning Channel and it > >said that many human societies had a 'kill on sight' relationship with cats. > >The Wisdom of the Ancients. > > > My kind of person. > > Another deterent a neighbor of mine used when he lived at another location > was to catch two of the cats. Here is where you need some help. take both > cats and tie a rope around each cat just in front of their hind legs. If > your neighbor has an outside clothesline, take the cats now that they are > tied together and drape them over the clothesline. They are now hanging, > and they fight like hell. If you are lucky, they kill each other. The > neighbor sees their cats dead hanging and get the message not to let > them out unsupervised. > > Flame bait? Surely so, as I'll assume that no one interested in the genteel, civilized pursuit of gardening would do such a thing. Suggest to all that this guy go in their kill file. Then he'll be ranting at no one. -- Lisa W. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.ingr.com!b11!usenet Fri Mar 4 11:34:22 EST 1994 Article: 27346 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!news.ingr.com!b11!usenet From: debradfo@ingr.com Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Yes! Blueberries in zone 7 Date: 3 Mar 1994 22:07:43 GMT Organization: Intergraph Plotting Lines: 28 Distribution: na Message-ID: <2l5n3f$mat@b11.b11.ingr.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: claudius.b29.ingr.com X-Newsreader: Status: O X-Status: >In article <2klrgt$giv@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> white@eng.gtefsd.com writes: >>I would like to grow blueberries here in Northern VA, where it can get quite >>hot and humid. I understand that there are some varieties now that were bred >>to be more tolerant of heat; has anybody seen any of these, or have experience >>with a variety that tolerated this kind of weather? Or seen an article, or >>some other source? I have grown blueberries here in North Alabama (Zone 7) for the last 8 or so years. They do just fine. I grow rabbiteye varieties only. At my last house I had Tifblue, Woodard, and Delite. Beautiful fall color, wonderful and ABUNDANT fruit. No-spray no-worries no-maintenance. I just net the bushes to keep the birds off when the berries turn blue. I have the above varieties and a new one called Premier at my new house. These were planted in the winter of 92-93 and survived our terrible heat and drought last year with no problems. I have never had any problem with cold weather hardiness and we typically get a day or two near zero. This year we got down below zero and my bushes are budding up nicely now as spring approaches. Don't grow them in shade or fruit production will suffer. I do mulch with pine straw but I don't water them or feed them at all. I can't think of anything else I have grown which I could recommend more highly for the home landscape or garden. Dave Bradford debradfo@ingr.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey Fri Mar 4 11:34:23 EST 1994 Article: 27347 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: Gypsum for clay... Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <2kthel$efj@engage.sps.mot.com> <2l0nm5$jlu@morrow.stanford.edu> Date: 3 Mar 1994 21:58:55 UTC Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: In article <2l0nm5$jlu@morrow.stanford.edu> dawn@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Dawn Burgess) writes: >Okay, okay. But it's a pet peeve of mine and all you who are >knowledgeable (sp?) (which Paul seems to be, judging from the >great info he gave on gypsum) please please don't perpetuate it! Well, I put it in quotes - but you are correct. In the world of agriculture; chemical refers to the modern (green revolution) techniques which are dependent on petrochemicals and mining the soil for the most part; organic refers to the ageless techniques of working the soil. These are not the same as the definitions used by Chemists. So, ag speaking, Gypsum is recognized by everyone as "organic" and even relatively low impact since it is common in many regions of the world - but it is not a (petro-) chemical product. Scientifically (Chemist) speaking, gypsum is an inorganic mineral deposit. >(The best is the "chemical-free" sunscreen I bought, gritting my teeth >all the while... "Contains no chemicals...active ingredient: zinc oxide.") "Without chemicals - life itself would be impossible" - Dow Chemicals ~70's From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!redbeard.physics.fsu.edu!sdb Fri Mar 4 11:34:24 EST 1994 Article: 27348 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!redbeard.physics.fsu.edu!sdb From: sdb@redbeard.physics.fsu.edu (Scott D. Berry) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: gardenias indoors Date: 3 Mar 1994 22:52:55 GMT Organization: Florida State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <2l5po7$pha@mailer.fsu.edu> References: <2l55s8$k8q@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: redbeard.physics.fsu.edu Status: O X-Status: > > I have a gardenia which I have grown indoors for 3 years. It has flowered >sporadically but now is BUDDING IN THE HUNDREDS. I have heard they need cool >nights and lots of moisture. I don't want to make any mistakes at this point. >And the lit on gardenias is scant. Any experts with proven methods??? (I don't >have a greenhouse; I grow mine in a sun room with house heat) > > Thanks, David T. Around here, gardenia jasminoides (3-8') and gardenia jasminoides radicans (1-3') grow quite well outside, flowering profusely in June. The shrub likes sun or part shade, which will translate into about as much sun as you can give it if you live north. Temperatures here in June have highs around the upper 80's and very low 90's, with nights in the 60's and even 70's at the end of June. They like acid soil, and will take quite a bit of water. If you haven't fertilized them you may want to (acid type). Scott D. Berry Assistant Professor of Physics Florida State University 315 Keen Bldg, B-159, Tallahassee, FL 32306-3016 (904) 644-1218 INTERNET: berry@redbeard.physics.fsu.edu BITNET: berry@fsu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!gruntwork.sps.mot.com!not-for-mail Fri Mar 4 11:34:26 EST 1994 Article: 27349 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!gruntwork.sps.mot.com!not-for-mail From: ponder@killdozer.sps.mot.com (Carl Ponder) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Anything like Creeping Red Fescue grow in Texas? Date: 3 Mar 1994 16:27:42 -0600 Organization: Motorola RISC Software, Austin, TX Lines: 19 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2l5o8u$ekn@killdozer.sps.mot.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: killdozer.sps.mot.com Status: O X-Status: Around the coast of Southern California, people grew an ornamental grass that would grow several feet long, along the ground, and it had a light green color. It had a look that reminded me of a "feathered" haircut. A friend of mine who did landscape work back there said it was Creeping Red Fescue, though I haven't seen a picture of the stuff to confirm. First, does this sound right? Is there a picture of Creeping Red Fescue somewhere that I can track down? Second, fescue's do't grow well here in Austin. We get frosts in the winter, and it can get hot and dry in the summer. The soil is also quite alkaline, since the hills are made of limestone. Is there anything like this grass which *will* grow in Texas hill country? Thanks in advance, Carl Ponder oakhill!ponder@cs.utexas.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!mixcom.com!Gary.Rebholz Fri Mar 4 11:34:27 EST 1994 Article: 27351 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!mixcom.com!Gary.Rebholz From: Gary Rebholz Subject: zone 5 fall fragrance Message-ID: <1994Mar3.213925.14395@mixcom.mixcom.com> Sender: vvyyvv@mixcom.mixcom.com (Gary Rebholz) Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milw, WI (414) 241-5469 References: Distribution: usa Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 21:39:25 GMT Lines: 24 Status: O X-Status: In jeff.west@atlantaga.ncr.com (Jeff West) writes: >I am trying to find something which will provide fragrance from Oct. to >winter. I am thinking about Mahonia japonica, Osmanthus armatus or >heterophyllus, and some of the Viburnums. I live north of Atlanta, Ga. (zone >7-8 depending on map) and the spot is partly sunny. Does anyone have any >experiences with these? Are they really that fragrant? Where could I get >them? This follow-up is applicable to your subject, but not applicable to your zone/intent: I purchased a house 2 years ago with a large American Basswood tree in the backyard and was pleasantly surprised to experience the peculilarly strong, spicy scent of its leaves as they decay on the ground! This is in addition to the pleasant, down-right heady scent of its flowers in the spring! I consider it a little bonus during the damp days of fall :-) -- ........................................................................ Gary.Rebholz@mixcom.mix Milwaukee, WI ........................................................................ From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!NewsWatcher!user Fri Mar 4 11:34:28 EST 1994 Article: 27352 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.service.uci.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: ucivet@uci.edu (Clifford R. Roberts DVM) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Buffalo Grass ?? Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 4 Mar 1994 00:21:23 GMT Organization: UC Irvine Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.200.137.52 Status: O X-Status: We are here in southern Ca (alkaline clay soil) looking for a low water use lawn grass. Buffalo grass (Buchloe sp) has been recommended, with a turf agronomist recommending sod of a vegetatively propagated type over a seeded type(*much* cheaper). We realize that during the short winter days the grass will be brown. Any experiences/preferences out there? cr roberts ucivet@uci.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!lehman.com!mbsdev62!jdewitt Fri Mar 4 11:34:29 EST 1994 Article: 27353 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!lehman.com!mbsdev62!jdewitt From: jdewitt@lehman.com (Joel DeWitt) Subject: Re: Sensitive Plant Message-ID: Sender: news@lehman.com (News) Nntp-Posting-Host: mbsdev62 Reply-To: jdewitt@lehman.com Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc. References: <2k3gbf$446@fermat.mayo.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:56:17 GMT Lines: 5 Status: O X-Status: Do you mean mimosa pudica? This is a fast-growin tree; It needs a lot of sun, and watch for spider mites. Pom-pom pink flowers about 1/2$ size, very sweet. Don't even think of planting outside north of Miami. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!lehman.com!mbsdev62!jdewitt Fri Mar 4 11:34:30 EST 1994 Article: 27354 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!paris.ics.uci.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!lehman.com!mbsdev62!jdewitt From: jdewitt@lehman.com (Joel DeWitt) Subject: Re: Ficus Tree : Can I replant cuttings? Message-ID: Sender: news@lehman.com (News) Nntp-Posting-Host: mbsdev62 Reply-To: jdewitt@lehman.com Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc. References: <1994Feb26.180423.59515@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 18:02:34 GMT Lines: 4 Status: O X-Status: Air layering works on ficus: you injure the tree with a razor, apply rooting hormone, cover with wet moss, wrap in plastic to stay wet. Wait until the moss is full of roots, cut, and plant. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Fri Mar 4 11:34:31 EST 1994 Article: 27355 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Yellow pear tomatoes Date: 4 Mar 1994 01:20:49 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 11 Message-ID: <2l62dh$2vq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: I don't know about the specific strain of yellow pear tomatoes from Johnny's you mention. However, our experience has been that all the small-fruited tomatoes except those sold a dwarf varieties are large straggling plants and not suitable for container. However, if you have the space for them, they will produce all season long in the garden, and one plant will probably provide all that you and your friends and neighbors want. We don't think they should be used for canned tomato juice, the juice is bland. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Fri Mar 4 11:34:32 EST 1994 Article: 27356 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Sprouting Spuds Date: 4 Mar 1994 01:24:45 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 6 Message-ID: <2l62kt$3eg@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: I have read that it is not a good idea to save and replant your own potatoes. Commercial potato starts are guaranteed virus free, you risk picking up a virus if you re-use your own stock. It may not be worth the money you save. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Fri Mar 4 11:34:33 EST 1994 Article: 27357 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Fungus and Seed Sprouting Date: 4 Mar 1994 01:29:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 10 Message-ID: <2l62ss$3pq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: It sounds as if that batch of plants has had it. "Damping off", of seedlings is common, happens to all of us at one time or another. You may have kept them too wet. A good preventative is to cover the soil with a good layer of expanded vermiculite. You can buy this in garden stores in small bags, or buy a huge bag at a lumber yard for not much more. It is used for insulation. The vermiculite seems to keep the surface dry while keeping the soil underneath moist, and is a pretty good preventative. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Fri Mar 4 11:34:34 EST 1994 Article: 27358 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Cotyledons Date: 4 Mar 1994 01:35:33 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2l6395$4d8@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: You are to be congratulated for observation, and for thinking about what you see. Cotyledons are storage tissues, which become green and appear similar to leaves. However, they do not have the kind of "veins" that true leaves have, they do not have stomata, either. They provide stored food to the developing seedling, and make a little food at the same time. They are not an efficient leaf structure, which will wither as soon as the true leaves are large enough to take over, and the stored food of the cotyledon is used up. (I am a botanist but not a plant anatomist of morphologist,, but I believe this is accurate information). -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!network.ucsd.edu!btree!markski Fri Mar 4 11:34:35 EST 1994 Article: 27359 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!network.ucsd.edu!btree!markski From: markski@btree.brooktree.com (Mark Sankowski) Subject: Advise on lowering pH Message-ID: <1994Mar4.014254.15744@btree.brooktree.com> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 01:42:54 GMT Distribution: na Organization: Brooktree Corporation Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: I recently purchased a soil test kit (pH-n-p-k). I checked my pH, and the reading I got was 10! Does this sound right? If so, how much of what do I need to add to get my pH down to 6.5 - 7.0? The size of the area is approx 250 sq. ft. Also, can I add the stuff if I already have plants in the ground (tomatoes, peas, onions, celery, spinach and radishes) without shocking them? I'm located in San Diego, Cal. I should also add that this is a one year old garden which was mostly clay and sand, but has been given plenty of compost, manure, peat moss and topsoil to "liven it up" a bit. Any and all advise would be appreciated. -- UUCP: ...ucsd!btree!markski From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!newshub.nosc.mil!crash!jhawk Fri Mar 4 11:34:36 EST 1994 Article: 27360 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!newshub.nosc.mil!crash!jhawk From: jhawk@crash.cts.com (John Hawk) Subject: patio cover Organization: CTS Network Services (CTSNET/crash), San Diego, CA Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:32:30 GMT Message-ID: X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Sender: news@crash.cts.com (news subsystem) Nntp-Posting-Host: crash.cts.com Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: I'm building a patio cover from 2X6 douglas fir and covering it with shade cloth. I need suggestions on the following: a) general spacing between members b) how far can a 2X6 frame extend past the end support. I need to keep the posts out of the view from the interior of the house. Thanks-John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!pangea.Stanford.EDU!dawn Fri Mar 4 11:34:37 EST 1994 Article: 27361 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!pangea.Stanford.EDU!dawn From: dawn@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Dawn Burgess) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Yellow pear tomatoes Date: 4 Mar 1994 02:52:59 GMT Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2l67qb$po0@morrow.stanford.edu> References: <2l62dh$2vq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <2l62dh$2vq@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) writes: > >I don't know about the specific strain of yellow pear tomatoes >from Johnny's you mention. However, our experience has been that >all the small-fruited tomatoes except those sold a dwarf >varieties are large straggling plants and not suitable for >container. I grew yellow pear tomatoes in a half-barrel along with oregano, thyme, rosemary and sage. Worked fine. Your mileage may vary. Dawn From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jpdavid Fri Mar 4 11:34:38 EST 1994 Article: 27362 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jpdavid From: jpdavid@netcom.com (jk) Subject: advice for barrier plants Message-ID: Organization: A.V. (via Netcom @ 408 241-9760 guest) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 03:42:48 GMT Lines: 24 Status: O X-Status: I need some advice in picking a type of plant to use as a barrier. The situation is this: There is an area along the base of a hill, about 75 feet in length. It abuts a road. The hillside is steep, barely walkable, and currently covered with about 75% ivy, and 25% iceplant. It faces north, gets a lot of sun, and has sprinkler coverage. I am in Los Angeles, so it is warm. :) :) We were planning on putting up a fence, but I hate to do it. I think any sort of plant would look much better, and furthermore the city requires mega-permits for any construction. What type of plant would you all reccomend? It should grow to be dense enough so that it would be an effective deterrent. Also, It would be nice if it grew rather quickly. Lastly, of course, it would be nice if it were not too expensive. Thank you in advance! jk -- | John Kordic | jpdavid@netcom.com | // Amiga!! :( :( | | Fight On USC! | Go Kings! Go Ducks! | \X/ 'O Bar E O Meu Lar!' | From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet Fri Mar 4 11:34:39 EST 1994 Article: 27363 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet From: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com (Susan Argyle) Subject: Whirlaway tomatoes - need source Message-ID: <1994Mar4.003828.10356@mksol.dseg.ti.com> Sender: usenet@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: ews19.dseg.ti.com Reply-To: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc. Dallas, TX Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:38:28 GMT Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: We raised Whirlaway tomatoes a few years ago, and really liked the flavor. We have been unable to find them the last 2 years. Does anyone know of a source? I have ordered dozens of seed catalogs and not had any luck yet. Susan From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!dns1.NMSU.Edu!mmarquez Fri Mar 4 11:34:40 EST 1994 Article: 27364 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!dns1.NMSU.Edu!mmarquez From: mmarquez@nmsu.edu (Melissa A. Marquez) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Questions Date: 4 Mar 1994 04:00:41 GMT Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM Lines: 8 Message-ID: <2l6bp9INNn2@dns1.NMSU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dante.nmsu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Status: O X-Status: HI there! I"m new to the state of Maryland... heck i'm new to the East coast! Can anyone tell me when planting starts around DC? And can anyone tell me where i can get the dirt analyzed? I come from New Mexico hot and dry so can ya tell me what plants /vegtables do good here in this climate?! Thanks in Advance 8 ) Melyssa From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!well!barrnet.net!iserver.spacebbs.com!spacebbs!ted.jensen Fri Mar 4 11:34:41 EST 1994 Article: 27365 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Want to grow pole beans From: ted.jensen@spacebbs.com (Ted Jensen) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!well!barrnet.net!iserver.spacebbs.com!spacebbs!ted.jensen Distribution: world Message-ID: <6.11314.1607.0NAE8869@spacebbs.com> References: Date: Thu, 3 Mar 94 19:56:00 -0800 Organization: Space BBS - 15 nodes - v.32bis - (415-323-4193) Lines: 62 Status: O X-Status: On 03-03-94 Jeffrey Bankos wrote: > I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only > planting bush types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to > install trellis I can use to let the vines grow on. Can anybody > tell me what they've used in the past to grow beans on? Thanks /|<--------D / | <---A C------->/ | / | / | / | / | | | B------>| /| | / | /|\ /<-----G / | \/ / | /\ / |/ \<-----E / | \ |/ | \|<-----F Last year I used electrical conduit. This is inexpensive steel tubing that you can get at your hardware store. It is relatively easy to cut with a hack saw. The sketch above illustrates. I made my trellis about 6-1/2 feet high. Straight conduit was used for the two vertical sections (A & B) and the horizontal section at the top (C). The two top corners (D for example) were fitted with 90 degree elbows, easily connected with a screwdriver. I then stuck the whole thing in the ground and about 3 inches above ground I tied a string between the two vertical supports (G). I drilled a small hole in each vertical at this height and used a sheet metal screw to tie the string to. This year I'm going to see if I can find a 'T' connection and use another piece of conduit for G. I then obtained some nylon string and ran pieces vertically between G and the top bar about every 2 inches. Actually I sort of zig-zagged it back and forth instead of using several independent pieces of string. This worked fine until the bean plants filled up the area and then I found on windy days the whole thing would tend to slant at an angle. I then added some more holes to add string to and put stakes in the ground (e.g. F) and tied the thing down better (e.g. E). Seemed to work reasonably well. With the additions mentioned, I am going to build 2 more and run 3 such trellises this year. So... there's one approach for you to consider. Hope this helps! Ted Jensen Redwood City, Calif. * SLMR 2.1a * From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nwnexus!bellevue-ip49.halcyon.com!user Fri Mar 4 11:34:42 EST 1994 Article: 27366 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!nwnexus!bellevue-ip49.halcyon.com!user From: ace@tidbits.com (Adam C. Engst) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Avocado plant Date: Thu, 03 Mar 1994 20:52:33 -0800 Organization: TidBITS Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <1994Mar1.224544.14622@news.cs.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bellevue-ip49.halcyon.com Status: O X-Status: In article <1994Mar1.224544.14622@news.cs.brandeis.edu>, shavelson@binah.cc.brandeis.edu wrote: > Does anyone have tips on getting an avocado pit to > sprout? I suspended it with toothpicks in water, > fat end down, about 6 weeks ago. I've been changing > the water about once a week, and have succeeded > iin growing some nice mold, but no avocado plant. I've always just stuffed them in the dirt of some other plant, and had rather good success. Not all sprout, but most do. Of course I only plant the pits from good avocados - just on the off chance I might someday get to eat fruit from that tree... :-) cheers ... -Adam -- Adam C. Engst, TidBITS Editor -- ace@tidbits.com -- info@tidbits.com Author of the Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh -- tisk@tidbits.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!walter.cray.com!eastrg2!gwv Fri Mar 4 11:34:42 EST 1994 Article: 27367 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!walter.cray.com!eastrg2!gwv From: gwv@eastrg2.cray.com (George Vandenberghe) Subject: Plant propagation Message-ID: <1994Mar3.102612.11836@walter.cray.com> Lines: 7 Sender: gwv@eastrg2 (George Vandenberghe) Nntp-Posting-Host: eastrg2-gate.cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. Date: 3 Mar 94 10:26:12 CST Status: O X-Status: I have been trying to propagate a citrus tree and a gardenia. from softwood cuttings without success. Can anybody recommend a good reference on plant propagation. I am an expert on vegetable growing but a rank novice in plant propagation techniques. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl2.crl.com!not-for-mail Fri Mar 4 11:34:43 EST 1994 Article: 27368 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl2.crl.com!not-for-mail From: edwards@crl.com (Gregory Edwards) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Revamping Rock Walkways Date: 3 Mar 1994 22:07:28 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [login: guest] Lines: 8 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2l6j70$of6@crl2.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl2.crl.com Status: O X-Status: I have several walkways in my yard composed of small rocks underlaid with black plastic. Over the years, duff from trees and dirt have caused the rocks to become partially buried. How can I prevent this? Do I have to take the rocks and dirt out then replace the rocks? Or is there an easier way? Carla Edwards From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!eastrg2!gwv Fri Mar 4 11:34:44 EST 1994 Article: 27369 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!walter.cray.com!eastrg2!gwv From: gwv@eastrg2.cray.com (George Vandenberghe) Subject: Re: Zoysia Grass Lawn ??? Message-ID: <1994Mar3.110247.12643@walter.cray.com> Lines: 31 Sender: gwv@eastrg2 (George Vandenberghe) Nntp-Posting-Host: eastrg2-gate.cray.com Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: Date: 3 Mar 94 11:02:47 CST Status: O X-Status: In article , draziw@netcom.com (Ryan) writes: |> |> In a handyman mag I read, I see an ad for "Zoysia Grass Lawn" all the |> time. Anyone ever seen it in person? Is it half as good as they claim? |> It sounds interesting. Post if you know something about it. In the ad |> it actualy says "Not shipped outside USA or WA or OR". Hmmm |> |> Ryan Zoyzia makes a great summer lawn and is hardy to at least Zone 5 (I've never heard of it winterkilling anywhere) However it is fully and completely dormant from mid fall to mid spring (days colder than 70). Here in DC this means it is brown from mid October to late April whereas bluegrass is grayish green in winter, emerald from early April to early June, yellowish green or brown in summer, and emerald again in september through mid novenber , sometimes maintaining good winter color in a mild winter. Zoyzia is also fairly drought and very wear tolerant. It grows slowly and will be slow to establish but makes a very thick cover. If you don't have hot humid summers, cool season grasses will probably look better for more of the year but here in DC many people use it as a lawn grass and it is attractive even when brown. It is propagated from plugs which you put into an established lawn of something else and it then slowly takes over (except for bermudagrass; it will not crowd out bermudagrass in a sunny lawn but is a little more shade tolerant than bermudagrass and will beat out the bermudagrass in light shade) From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jcash Fri Mar 4 11:34:45 EST 1994 Article: 27370 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jcash From: jcash@netcom.com (Julian Cash) Subject: Re: Keeping cats out of the garden? (may be a FAQ) Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) References: , <1994Mar3.135125.4153@es.dupont.com> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 06:22:58 GMT Lines: 57 Status: O X-Status: Okay, okay, okay. Calm down. This is all getting way too tense. Not to mention sadistic. Yes, cats are a huge pain in the ass. This is their nature. Both dogs and cats have an irresistible attraction to fresh dirt. They seem to me to be doing some kinda territory thing. You guys are also doing a territory thing. You say: my dirt. Animal say: no, my dirt! In the animal kingdom, after a few instances of this kind, the critters involved face off and fight. It is only natural for you to become murderously angry. That is the nature of a territory dispute. Whole countries have had vicious wars over this very question. It is all very well to say " Well I bought the property so it's mine." Under Cat Law, the cat can say " Well, I shit in it, my scent is everywhere, I have marked every boundary line, and it's mine." The cat is not actually your enemy. He doesn't want to kill your whole family and burn your house down. He doesn't even realize how much money you spend on the plants he strews all over your yard. Although the cat in question (or cats or female cats or dogs) may seem completely vindictive, he is just being thorough. Yes, I know. This is no consolation to you. It is no consolation to me that my downstairs neighbor - who screams and pounds on doors and breaks things and plays his music so loud that my teeth vibrate inside my mouth at three in the bloody morning - is a complete alcoholic and is in the grip of a nervous breakdown/romantic breakup, and is not actually specifically directing it at me. I am not consoled by the knowledge that he is not my enemy. Neither should you be consoled by an explanation of cat property law. What I am trying to point out is that hostility towards the cats only clouds your mind from figuring out productive and nonlethal solutions. So let us leave out the poisoning ( which is what bowls of antifreeze are, folks ) and the bludgeoning and the tying of things to cats tails behind us, all right? And I promise not to smash the teeth of the teenagers living across the street from me, not to blow away rude drivers, and not to garrote my downstairs neighbor and decorate the walls with his blood as a warning to all other inconsiderate psychotic men. Ahem. My first suggestion is inspired by the book " Never Cry Wolf " by Farley Mowat. Piss your boundary lines. You don't need to have a continuos stream circling the whole property, just dribble a little of your own pee about every five feet. Us girls can use a premade jar, boys can use their hoses. Dogs and cats both mark their boundaries this way, and this will give them a moment's pause. My friend Lynn recommends California Catshit Gardening. Basically, she says, cats need to squat to poo. She makes this highly uncomfterable for them by positioning sticks that will poke their butts when the squat. She leaves branches and twigs poking out of the ground all around (and in) her plantings. She puts no sticks in the little spaces where she walks between the rows. This way, the cats will be more likely to do their business on the walkways, which she doesn't mind half so much as she minds it on the rhubarb. My personal technique is that whenever I plant something, I dig an equally fascinating hole elsewhere in the garden. This has a 50-50 chance of working in a low cat density garden. Remember, it's not like we are burying huge hunks of meat in our yards. Cats desire to crap up our gardens is about territory. We don't actually have anything they want. We can outsmart them, we just have to figure out how. -- This is Julian's account, but I am not him. My name is Jackie, and my opinion is not necesarily his so refer to me in responses. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch!dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU!clb5q Fri Mar 4 11:34:45 EST 1994 Article: 27371 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!murdoch!dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU!clb5q From: clb5q@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU (Cheryl L. Boyd) Subject: ORGANIC ORCHARDING Message-ID: Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU Organization: uva Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 19:37:23 GMT Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: I've been trying to locate a copy of Gene Logsdon's book ORGANIC ORCHARDING for several years. Tried calling Rodale...they say out of print. Tried my local used book shops..no luck consistantly. Anybody know where I can get a copy of this or another book that deals with growing fruit trees organically?? Respond to clb5q@dayhoff.med.virginia.edu. Thanks, Cheryl From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!gems.vcu.edu!kjones Fri Mar 4 11:34:46 EST 1994 Article: 27372 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!gems.vcu.edu!kjones From: kjones@gems.vcu.edu Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Want to grow pole beans Message-ID: <1994Mar4.000219.1112@gems.vcu.edu> Date: 4 Mar 94 00:02:19 -0400 References: Organization: Medical College of Virginia Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: In article , jbankos@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Jeffrey Bankos) writes: > I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only planting bush > types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to install trellis I can use to let > the vines grow on. Can anybody tell me what they've used in the past to grow > beans on? Thanks Jeffrey, I bought a pole bean tower from Burpee (catalog) last summer for $24. It worked very well. In a 5 sq. ft. area I grew about 12 vines. It made it so easy to pick the beans (my daughter actually helped for once!). You might want to check it out. Kevin Richmond,VA From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!serval!beta.tricity.wsu.edu!jshearer Fri Mar 4 11:34:47 EST 1994 Article: 27373 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!serval!beta.tricity.wsu.edu!jshearer From: jshearer@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Jeff Shearer) Subject: Salsify seeds wanted Message-ID: <1994Mar4.050150.28426@serval.net.wsu.edu> Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Washington State University TriCities Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 94 05:01:50 GMT Lines: 6 Status: O X-Status: Anyone got some extra salsify seeds??? I've purchased all of my other seeds at local gardening centers/nurseries, but NO ONE has salsify seeds. I don't have the inclination to pay a $4 handling fee to order a single pack of seeds from a catalog. Any help would be appreciated. - Jeff From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!falcon.ccs.uwo.ca!zaphod Fri Mar 4 11:34:48 EST 1994 Article: 27374 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!falcon.ccs.uwo.ca!zaphod From: zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: patio cover Date: 4 Mar 1994 12:11:20 GMT Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2l78h8$dsm@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: cupoftea.ctrg.rri.uwo.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Status: O X-Status: on Fri, 4 Mar 1994 00:32:30 GMT John Hawk wrote in rec.gardens: > shade cloth. I need suggestions on the following: > a) general spacing between members > b) how far can a 2X6 frame extend past the end support. I need to keep > the posts out of the view from the interior of the house. your local building codes will have the details on some of this, but you may want to try misc.consumers.house -- unless you are planning to grow the thing, rec.gardens might not be a good starting point :) :) -- Lance R. Bailey System/Network Manager Robarts Research Institute NeXT/email: zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca box: Clinical Trials Resources Group fax: +1 519 663 3789 P.O. Box 5015, 100 Perth Dr. vox: +1 519 663 3787 x4108 London, Canada N6A 5K8 Fortunately I have my feathers numbered for just such an emergency. -F. Leghorn From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!debbie!buonomod Fri Mar 4 11:34:49 EST 1994 Article: 27375 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!debbie!buonomod From: buonomod@tbsw.tt.com (David Buonomo) Subject: Starting a Wildflower Meadow Message-ID: <1994Mar4.142208.25686@debbie.fbsw.tt.com> Sender: news@debbie.fbsw.tt.com (Newsmaster) Nntp-Posting-Host: tberds3.tt.com Organization: Telecommunications Techniques Corporation, Germantown MD Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 14:22:08 GMT Lines: 33 Status: O X-Status: I'm new to this newsgroup and not sure if there is a FAQ that covers this, so here goes. I have a 1/2" acre field that I would like to convert to a wildflower meadow. It's pretty much in full sunlight on a slope, and seems to stay pretty moist. The entire area was once farmland and is now field grass. I did mow it throughout last year. My primary goal is to minimize my lawn maintenance, so I would like to establish the meadow as simply as possible. My questions are: What should be done to prepare the area? Tilling, areation, "dethatching"? Should I mix a grass seed in? What kind? When should the seed be planted (we're outside Washington D.C., zone 5 I think)? How should I plant the seed (simple broadcast, mix with sand, etc.)? When can I expect to see some results? How should I maintain the area (annual overseeding, etc.)? Any other advice? Thanks in advance for any and all help. I'll post responses if there is interest. Dave. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!sls16 Fri Mar 4 11:34:50 EST 1994 Article: 27376 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!sls16 From: sls16@po.CWRU.Edu (Samuel L. Shank) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Fertilization after lawn aeration Date: 4 Mar 1994 16:01:26 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 29 Message-ID: <2l7m0n$bj0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: sls16@po.CWRU.Edu (Samuel L. Shank) NNTP-Posting-Host: owl.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi. I am not a regular reader of this group, so please ignore any ignorance of mine... I will be aerating my lawn as well as several neighbors/relatives this spring thaw. I have aerated lawns before, but never fertilized them. My question to you is what type of fertilizer should I use. The soil here in the Cleveland area is dark, rich, and in areas has lots of clay. As for the pH, I am not sure. It would be low (acidic) if anything. I know that lime pellets are good for this, and gypsum is good for breaking up clay. But what type of fertilizer would be good immedately after aeration. I have heard that possibly a high N (30 to 40?) and low to no P or K. Thanks for the input, and if I get enough replies and requests, I will post a summary to this group. Also, please reply via email, as I am not a regular reader of this group. Thanks, Sam -- "But this one goes to 11!" -- Nigel of Tap Sam Shank sls16@po.cwru.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!nrtpa038!brtph560!brtph844!yourch Fri Mar 4 12:23:47 EST 1994 Article: 27377 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!nrtpa038!brtph560!brtph844!yourch From: yourch@brtph844.bnr.ca (James Yourch P265) Subject: Re: Blueberries in zone 7 Sender: news@brtph560.bnr.ca (Usenet News) Message-ID: <1994Mar4.160606.13454@brtph560.bnr.ca> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:06:06 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP Lines: 33 Status: O X-Status: Kathleen Much writes: < snip > Your only problem with rabbiteyes may be susceptibility to freezing. I think they can't take much below 25 degrees. < snip > Not True. Rabbiteye blueberries are hardy. They are useful in mild winter areas because they don't require as much bud rest as other species. I have several varieties of Rabbiteye blueberries that I grow in my garden in Raleigh, NC ( Zone 7/8 ). They have survived cold ( 0 F ), heat ( 100 F ), and drought and rewarded me with white spring flowers, bluish-green summer foliage, beautiful long-lasting purple and red fall color, and of course, hundreds of delicious blueberries. In my opinion, Rabbiteye blueberries are attractive ornamental shrubs with a long season of interest. Combine that with the delicious fruit that they produce and you can see why I recommend them with no reservations. I have never had any insect or disease problem with my Rabbiteyes. However, I share the harvest with the mockingbirds, bluebirds, and robins, which is just fine with me. If you do not want to share your harvest with birds then get some netting. Good drainage is essential. I planted mine very high and piled peat moss and pine needles on top and around the partially exposed root ball. I feed them spring and fall with Holly-tone. Good Luck, Jay From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!jkf Fri Mar 4 12:23:49 EST 1994 Article: 27378 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mozz.unh.edu!christa.unh.edu!jkf From: jkf@christa.unh.edu (John K Fraser) Newsgroups: rec.gardens,alt.bitterness Subject: Re: Goodbye Groundhog Date: 4 Mar 1994 16:26:47 GMT Organization: University of New Hampshire - Durham, NH Lines: 21 Message-ID: <2l7ng7$dju@mozz.unh.edu> References: <94059.132338DWM7@psuvm.psu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: christa.unh.edu Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:27378 alt.bitterness:4223 Status: O X-Status: In article v078nhjd@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu ( Cricket's Trucking Service) writes: >In article <94059.132338DWM7@psuvm.psu.edu>, writes... >>Short of buying a shotgun and blowing the little critters sky high, does >>anyone know of any humane or even semi-humane way to encourage a nest of >>woodchucks to leave the empty lot behind my house and move deeper into the >>woods. I know exactly which woodpile they call home. Is there some foul >>smelling item I could pump into the hole? Thanks. > >There are some smoke bombs hat you can buy that might encourage them to move >on. Go to your local hardware store. > >Cricket > Probably all it would take is a little bit of amonia (sp?) in each of the entrances to the burrow. Chemical warfare is probably the best way to go here. Why are you denying yourself the cathartic release of blowing the little fuckers sky-high with a shotgun anyway. You might also considering setting fire to the wood-pile. j From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!menudo.uh.edu!oac4.hsc.uth.tmc.edu!NewsWatcher!user Fri Mar 4 12:23:50 EST 1994 Article: 27379 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!menudo.uh.edu!oac4.hsc.uth.tmc.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: cyn@odin.mda.uth.tmc.edu (Cyndi Smith) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Sensitive Plant Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 4 Mar 1994 16:23:27 GMT Organization: MD Anderson Cancer Center Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <2k3gbf$446@fermat.mayo.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: yggdrasil.mda.uth.tmc.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , jdewitt@lehman.com (Joel DeWitt) wrote: > Do you mean mimosa pudica? This is a fast-growin tree; > It needs a lot of sun, and watch for spider mites. > Pom-pom pink flowers about 1/2$ size, very sweet. > Don't even think of planting outside north of Miami. Not quite true - mimosa trees (just as you described) grow quite nicely in northeast Texas - and that is quite a bit north of Miami! The winters there often freeze and sometimes even snow. Summers are hot and often dry. -- Cyndi Smith Computer Programmer Department of Biomathematics M. D. Anderson Cancer Center Phone: 713/794-4938 Fax: 713/792-4262 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd Fri Mar 4 12:23:50 EST 1994 Article: 27380 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!pacbell.com!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) Subject: Re: Demon chameleon plants Message-ID: Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com Organization: AT&T References: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:04:00 GMT Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: >Does anyone have experience (pro or con) with the chameleon plant? >(Something like Houteneia sp?) I dislike it for the smell, but this is one of those rare fragrances that some find wonderful, and some find horrible. It is used in Chinese and Thai cooking, and I have seen it described as having an "orange peel" fragrance. To me it smells noxious, like burning plastic, and every time my lawn mower hit it, I thought I would throw up. Also, like diamonds, mint, and running bamboos, it is forever. Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london Sun Mar 6 14:05:08 EST 1994 Article: 27381 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Accessing rec.gardens FAQs & other gardening information at sunSITE Date: 4 Mar 1994 17:34:10 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 249 Message-ID: <2l7rei$hgd@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Status: O X-Status: from: pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture document: "RESOURCES" - >From sunSITE.unc.edu: FAQs, newsgroup, mailing-list and newsletter archives plus other information on sustainable agriculture, permaculture landscaping, gardening, farming, rural skills, horticulture, metalworking, woodworking, housebuilding, food, cooking, nutrition, alternative: healthcare, energy, architecture, housing, living, ecology and the environment. Accessable via: WAIS WWW ftpmail (send e-mail to ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu for helpfile) Gopher Link Info: Type=1 Name=Worlds of SunSITE -- by Subject Path=1/sunsite.d Host=calypso.oit.unc.edu Port=70 Anonymous ftp: ftp sunsite.unc.edu cd pub/academic cd agriculture/sustainable_agriculture cd recgardens [FAQs are here] -or- cd agriculture/rural-skills -or- cd medicine/alternative-healthcare -or- cd environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous Telnet: telnet sunsite.unc.edu Login: gopher Enter term type: (vt100 works fine) -Gopher Menu- The Worlds of sunSITE Sustainable Agriculture Information SunSITE Sustainable Agriculture Information recgardens [FAQs are here] ->Rural Skills: etc. ->Alternative Energy ->Alternative Healthcare -and- The Worlds of SunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic agriculture sustainable_agriculture recgardens [FAQs are here] -or rural-skills The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic environment alternative energy miscellaneous The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic medicine alternative healthcare FAQs: rec.gardens misc.rural rec.food.sourdough rec.food.veg rec.crafts.metalworking rec.woodworking alternative energy sci.energy.hydrogen alt.meditation sci.life-extension vegetarian Documents (partial list of topics): historic food vegetarian cooking alternative architecture alternative housing - sustainable communities alternative healthcare sustainable agriculture gardening-farming-rural life permaculture beekeeping biological pest control bioremediation aquaculture guides to Internet agriculture/healthcare/environment/biology resources homeopathy ayurveda nutrition Newsgroups and mailing lists: alt.sustainable.agriculture - provides newsgroup access to all traffic in the sustag-public and sanet-mg mailing lists plus all articles posted directly to that newsgroup. Mailing Lists: -------------- List name: sustag-public Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sustag-public@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Gated read/write to: alt.sustainable.agriculture List name: sanet-mg (Sustainable Agriculture Network mail group) Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sanet-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Gated read-only to: alt.sustainable.agriculture List name: forage-mg Server: almanac@oes.orst.edu Post articles to: forage-mg@oes.orst.edu Other mailing lists: - wetnet soils-l agmodels-l agric-l envst-l dairy-l bee-l hydro-l devel-l indknow-l aqua-l marine-l gardens-l cohousing-l maxlife-l Newsletters: - aanews aosa.news ben panups safefood-news susag-news vita-news altag-news apis attranews-digest cgiar-news csas-news food-safety-week handsnet-news leopold-center-news maxlife-l wsaa-news Usenet Newsgroups: - sci.agriculture alt.sustainable.agriculture alt.agriculture.misc alt.agriculture.fruit rec.gardens misc.rural alt.folklore.herbs alt.co-evolution sci.bio sci.bio.ecology sci.geo.geology sci.geo.meteorology sci.aquaria bionet plants bionet mycology bionet photosynthesis bionet cellbiology bionet general bionet.agroforestry bionet.n2-fixation bionet.biology.tropical alt.architecture.alternative alt.housing.nontrad sci.energy sci.energy.hydrogen misc.health.alternative sci.life-extension alt.health.ayurveda alt.folklore.gemstones alt.meditation rec.food.veg rec.food.veg.cooking sci.med.nutrition alt.food.fat-free Other mailing lists: - >From almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu: renew-energy (Renewable Energy), renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu nc-solar (North Carolina Solar Energy Resources), nc-solar@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu nat_med (Natural Medicine), nat_med@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu env_res (Environmental Resources), env-res@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu - For more information contact: Lawrence London london@sunSITE.unc.edu sunSITE ftp directories: /pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture /pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills /pub/academic/environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous /pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare Paul Jones Paul_Jones@unc.edu Office for Information Technology University of North Carolina Chapel, Hill, N.C. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!news.bu.edu!att-in!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd Sun Mar 6 14:05:09 EST 1994 Article: 27382 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!news.bu.edu!att-in!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) Subject: Re: zone 5 fall fragrance Message-ID: Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com Organization: AT&T References: <1994Mar3.213925.14395@mixcom.mixcom.com> Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:09:04 GMT Lines: 17 Status: O X-Status: >I purchased a house 2 years ago with a large American Basswood >tree in the backyard and was pleasantly surprised to experience the >peculilarly strong, spicy scent of its leaves as they decay on the ground! >This is in addition to the pleasant, down-right heady scent of its flowers >in the spring! Thanks for the info! I have added Basswood to my wish list. I know of one other tree with fragrant fallen leaves--Katsura. They smell like brown sugar. Delicious. Other fragrant fall leaves are sweet woodruff, and hay scented fern, altho I have only read about the latter. Anybody know of any others? Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!staffjf1 Sun Mar 6 14:05:09 EST 1994 Article: 27383 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!staffjf1 From: staffjf1@clark.net (james) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Signs of spring Date: 4 Mar 1994 17:51:39 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA Lines: 31 Distribution: na Message-ID: <2l7sfb$cq1@clarknet.clark.net> References: <1994Feb14.231456.11664@nicmad.uucp> <1994Feb17.191050.14976@gw.wmich.edu> <1994Feb23.100709.14769@walter.cray.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: George Vandenberghe (gwv@eastrg2.cray.com) wrote: : In article , bajones@astro (Ebeth Jones) writes: : |> : |> Its been warm and balmy here in Northern Virginia over the past weekend, : |> and for some reason making me think of the smell of orange blossoms, : |> which I think should be popping out in Arizona at this time of year. : |> : |> : |> : |> : |> : |> : |> -- : |> Elizabeth Jones E-MAIL: bajones@nvl.army.mil : |> : |> "A home without a cat, and a well-fed, well-petted, and properly revered cat, : |> may be a perfect home, *perhaps*, but how can it prove its title?" Mark Twain : Here in the DC Maryland suburbs (Hyattsville) we have : seen the mild weather but I still have ice on the : north side of my house.The first yellow crocus has emerged : from my sidewalk on the south side and some grass there : is starting to green up. It remains to be seen : whether the bermudagrass in some of my lawn winterkilled. : But in shady areas, I still have frost in the soil : below a few inches. : Some springs I can plant early Broccoli and : lettuce and other hardy crops by late : February. This isn't one of them. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!dg-rtp!salzo!lkinard Sun Mar 6 14:05:10 EST 1994 Article: 27384 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!dg-rtp!salzo!lkinard From: lkinard@salzo.Cary.NC.US (Lyric Kinard) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: paper pots Message-ID: <4g3Nic1w165w@salzo.Cary.NC.US> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 94 09:08:38 EST Organization: SalzoBoard BBS * 919-481-3787 Lines: 18 Status: O X-Status: Has anyone else tried using the paper pot makers found in several mail order catalogs? I saw them and thought "hey! I can do that!" and rolled up some pots out of newspaper with the end of a drinking glass. Recently OG magazine had an article on how to make them too. The problem I had was that all the flats I used them in got some sort of powdery mildew all over them so I tossed the whole thing. The plastic trays I used did not have this problem. It could have been several other things that caused it (I grew a whole mess of dead seedlings last season....this season I'm determined to do better!) but I wanted to know if anyone else had this problem. Also, I would like to water from the bottom but am not sure how this would work with paper pots. -Lyric It has FINALLY stopped raining and the sky is blue again! Now if the soil would just dry out a bit so I can attack it with the tiller! I LOVE power tools and dirt up to my elbows! From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!dg-rtp!salzo!lkinard Sun Mar 6 14:05:10 EST 1994 Article: 27385 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!dg-rtp!salzo!lkinard From: lkinard@salzo.Cary.NC.US (Lyric Kinard) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: wick/capillary matting Message-ID: <1q3Nic2w165w@salzo.Cary.NC.US> Date: Fri, 04 Mar 94 09:14:35 EST Organization: SalzoBoard BBS * 919-481-3787 Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: Does anyone know of a source for the matting you put under seedlings that wicks water to them for bottom watering? I've seen it with seed starting kits but not by itself. Does it work? I always tend to forget my poor seedlings for a ew days and let them dry out so any aid to keeping them watered would save my garden! Thanks! -Lyric From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!news.bu.edu!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:11 EST 1994 Article: 27386 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!news.bu.edu!usenet From: LKEYS@BUPULA.BU.EDU (clementine) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: STARTING SEEDS WITH HYDROPONICS Date: 4 Mar 1994 18:03:44 GMT Organization: Boston University, Pulmonary Center Lines: 83 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2l7t60$rbu@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bupula.bu.edu X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Status: O X-Status: I've had several people ask me about starting seeds with hydroponics and suggest that I post the info..... The scoop on hydroponics.....(If you want the *real* scoop on hydoponics, ask someone else....I've been doing this for about a month.) This is the easiest thing I've ever done. Basically, hydoponics is growing in a soilless medium. The plants' nutrients are provided by a nutrient solution that you mix with water. This is a system that can be as easy or as complicated as you want to make it. Mine is about as easy as it gets. Be prepared for outstanding results! I have tomato plants that are 6" tall and we just had *another* blizzard. You'll need to find a nursery that sells the supplies you'll need. Just go through the yellow pages and start calling. If you're in the Boston area try City Farm in Hyde Park - it seems to be a real family run business - very nice, extremely helpful. For the growing medium a frequent choice is rockwool. It's made from spun granite and looks like fiberglass. Rockwool comes in preformed cubes: 1" x1", 4" x 4" and slabs. The once inch cubes were twenty five cents a piece. The nutrient solution came in plastic quart containers and there are several different options. The person at City Farm said "you'll need this and that". She also said I'd need a pH testing kit - a VERY important item. Your plants won't absorb the nutrients if the pH is off. One of the solutions was a little over $10, the other was a little under. The pH kit was around $15. Plastic trays were around a buck. So, I bought what I was told and went home. I washed out an old plastic one gallon milk container, filled it with water and added one teaspoon of this and two teaspoons of that. Then I tested the pH - which means I filled a teeny tiny little vial with the solution and added three drop of the pH testing solution. The color is then compared to a little chart and you decide whether to add the 'up' solution or the 'down' solution. Add about 5 drops and test again. Repeat until the pH is right. (The instructions with the kit tell you what pH is preferred.) Then I fill another clean container with the solution and began dipping my little 1" cubes in it to thoroughly saturate them. The cubes have preformed little holes in them. Drop in a few seeds, place the cubes on a tray and place the tray on a window sill, under you lights, or where ever you usually sprout. TA DA!! That just about all there is to it! When the cubes start to dry out a bit, water with plain ol' water. (test the pH) - As far as I can tell there's no need to use your nutrient solution every time you water and it may even be detrimental to the plants due to the fact that you'll have nutrients and salts building up in the rockwool. - It was suggested to me that I dip the cubes into the solution when watering instead of watering from above. The idea is that watering the usual way might not saturate the entire cube, leaving significant dry patches. I'm about as lazy as one can get and just pour the solution on from above, allowing about 1/2" to pool at the bottom. It seems to work. When the plants get big, stuff the 1" pots in the little precut holes in the 4" pots. The whole thing can be planted into the soil. About lights: I have a 400w metal halide - a fairly pricey item and absolutely unnecessary for starting your seeds. Regular ol' fluorescents tubes do just fine as long as you keep them very close (1") to your seedlings. Various cautions.... Check them everyday to make sure they don't dry out. Don't be surprised if the whole thing gets bright green and slimy with algae. The folks at City Farm said it was OK, don't worry about it. I was warned to be careful when transplanting outside...these plants are really being babied in hydroponics. The roots aren't used to doing much work to find their nutrients and might not be too strong. Since I'm not at that stage yet I can't offer advice, just a warning. Pay cash. This may sound paranoid, but there's plenty of evidence that everyone from your local men in blue to FBI monitors stores that sell hydroponic set-ups. In several states purchasing this stuff has been "justifiable cause" to suspect people of growing illegal herbs. People have been traced throught their tag numbers, their checks and their credit cards. Some have had warrants served on their property, blah, blah, blah.... Be careful. If you think I can answer other questions please write. Good luck! Linda From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!staffjf1 Sun Mar 6 14:05:13 EST 1994 Article: 27387 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!staffjf1 From: staffjf1@clark.net (james) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Squirrels get my Tomatoes Date: 4 Mar 1994 18:16:45 GMT Organization: Clark Internet Services, Inc., Ellicott City, MD USA Lines: 38 Message-ID: <2l7tud$cq1@clarknet.clark.net> References: <2kjn1r$7qg@samba.oit.unc.edu> <1994Feb25.161125.477@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: ROBERT MULROY (MULROY@EPISAS.EPI.WISC.EDU) wrote: : Leonard writes: : > I live in a wooded area and garden in a clearing. Every summer the : > squirrels discover my tomatoes just as they begin to ripen. I have been : > unable to keep them away, and I hesitate to build a complete enclosure. : > Has anybody had success with this problem? They eat the tomatoes green as : > soon as they reach golf ball size. : > : I have the same problem, you could try covering your tomatoes with a : light-weight frame & chicken wire, but I'm sure they'll figure out a way : around that. The trick is to make it hard for them to get what you want : and easy for the to get something else, (maybe a few ears of feed-corn, or a : hopper full of grade b shell-on peanuts) : One thing that really worked for me was a blond cocker-beagle who used to : hang out in the garden just to catch all the delicious vermin that happened : into it. She'd eat everything but the tail, and bring those to me. : Approximately 30% of the tails were from squirrels, the rest were mostly rats. : If you happen to get enough tomatoes to can, freeze or dry, get a nice little : shot-gun, (perhaps a 20-guage or a .410) shoot a couple of those squirrels : and simmer them with the tomatoes. Crush some fresh basil, rosemary, and : marjoram together and add that near the end. You may never go back to beef. : Here in Mad-town however, the killing of tree-rats is a capitol offense. So : im left to bribing the things, fenceing them out, or tricking them into : thinking that the food in my garden is bad. I've got a bunch of those little : Thai peppers that I managed to overwinter. I can't wait to see the squirrells : take a bite of those promising fruits! : Maybe I'll get it on Video! : Bob : STANDARD DISCLAIMERS APPLY: : OH! And I in no way advocate the luring of game animals with bait! From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jrlink Sun Mar 6 14:05:13 EST 1994 Article: 27388 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!jrlink From: jrlink@netcom.com (John R. Link) Subject: Daffodills in pots? Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:01:42 GMT Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: Hi I live in Northern Calif and grow my daffodills in pots but while the plants grow and flower the leaves seem too droop. More watering helps but not completely, should I fertilize? Our water contains lots of salts, could this be the problem. Any insite would be appreciated. Jackie LInk -- Jackie Link - Fremont, California Internet:jrlink@netcom.com Prodigy:MXBT55B From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.cc.lehigh.edu!ns1.cc.lehigh.edu!dh0a Sun Mar 6 14:05:14 EST 1994 Article: 27389 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.cc.lehigh.edu!ns1.cc.lehigh.edu!dh0a From: dh0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DONALD L. HARDY) Subject: Re: Compost mixer - where to find? Message-ID: <1994Mar4.174251.135160@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 17:42:51 GMT Organization: Lehigh University Lines: 17 Status: O X-Status: >>I remember a discussion not too long ago about a device meant to stir up >>your compost heap without having to dig out the pitchfork and toss >>decomposing (bleah!) matter around. >I bought something like that (except made of metal, not wood) from Gurney's >catalog this year. Its really nifty. It's also available from Burpee. Feh. I can't find my catalogues, so I can't give you the number, either! Sorry. D. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald L. Hardy dh0a@Lehigh.EDU ++++ "The crimson lakes...." Project Manager 610(215)758.5110 + + Facilities Planning and Renovation Office ++++ E. F. Benson From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.cc.lehigh.edu!ns1.cc.lehigh.edu!dh0a Sun Mar 6 14:05:15 EST 1994 Article: 27390 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!netnews.upenn.edu!netnews.cc.lehigh.edu!ns1.cc.lehigh.edu!dh0a From: dh0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DONALD L. HARDY) Subject: Chipper/Shredder advice sought. Message-ID: <1994Mar4.180155.125160@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:01:55 GMT Organization: Lehigh University Lines: 15 Status: O X-Status: I am thinking of getting a chipper shredder this year, and am a bit torn. Front runner at the moment is the Troy-built 5 hp model. I am also looking at a Sears 10 hp at the same price. I have a 2/3 acre lot with a LOT of trees and leaves. Anybody have any thoughts, suggestions, or advice? Please post or e-mail me directly. Thanks a lot! Donald -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Donald L. Hardy dh0a@Lehigh.EDU ++++ "The crimson lakes...." Project Manager 610(215)758.5110 + + Facilities Planning and Renovation Office ++++ E. F. Benson From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!scott.skidmore.edu!sdecker Sun Mar 6 14:05:16 EST 1994 Article: 27391 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!scott.skidmore.edu!sdecker From: sdecker@scott.skidmore.edu (susan decker) Subject: Re: Want to grow pole beans Message-ID: <1994Mar4.180709.22012@scott.skidmore.edu> Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:07:09 GMT Lines: 22 Status: O X-Status: Jeffrey Bankos (jbankos@relay.nswc.navy.mil) wrote: : I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only planting bush : types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to install trellis I can use to let : the vines grow on. Can anybody tell me what they've used in the past to grow : beans on? Thanks : Jeffrey Depending on your taste and the natural resources in your area, you may want to consider building a rustic tower out of saplings, pruned branches or whatever else is handy. You can nail a pyramidal frame together, then weave some filler branches in, either tying them with twine, grape vine, etc, or nailing them together. Best if the branches are fresh and pliable. Depending on the type of pole bean, you may want to make the tower taller or shorter - taller is probably better. Simply place the tower over the beans and let 'em rip. Kids have a great time building these things - collecting the wood, sawing small branches, etc. I too have fun building them, and I really like the way they look. I know of one woman who dresses hers up in the fall as a ghost (a sheet draped over it with a light underneath it) and in the winter puts little lights all over it. Much more interesting than wires and such, and very environmentally correct. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Mar 6 14:05:16 EST 1994 Article: 27392 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Natural Gardens Date: 4 Mar 1994 18:27:30 GMT Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 21 Message-ID: <2l7uii$n2b@apollo.it.luc.edu> References: <2l0l5j$63i@rmg01.prod.aol.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Naval (naval@aol.com) wrote: : Does anyone have experience with a company called Natural Gardening Company? I don't know if this is the same company but a wonderful source of native plants is: The Natural Garden Phone:708-584-0150 38W443 Highway 64 Fax: 584-0185 St. Charles, IL 60175 Other sources for Midwest native plants and seeds: Prairie Ridge Nursery Phone:608-437-5245 9738 Overland Road Fax 437-8982 Mt. Horeb, Wisc. 53572-2832 Ion Exchange Phone:319-535-7231 1878 Old Mission Drive Fax: 535-7362 Harpers Ferry, Iowa 52146-7533 Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!festival!leeds.ac.uk!news Sun Mar 6 14:05:17 EST 1994 Article: 27393 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!festival!leeds.ac.uk!news From: phy3rd@gps.leeds.ac.uk (R Dorsch) Subject: How to get rid of voles damiging apple tries? Organization: University of Leeds, England Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 19:40:34 GMT Message-ID: <1994Mar4.194034.13034@leeds.ac.uk> Keywords: vole, apples Sender: nntp@leeds.ac.uk Lines: 24 Status: O X-Status: Hi, I have in my garden some young apple tries. It is difficult to bring them up, because there are some voles in the garden, which are damaging the roots of the trees regularly. I want to get rid of of these voles, without the use of toxins or environmentally critical chemicals. I have tried different mechanical trap without striking success. Does anybody know some useful hints for this problem? I would appreciate any hints for information on this problem, available on the internet or as printed paper. -- Rainer Dorsch ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | | internet: until March, 25th: | | phy3rd@sun.leeds.ac.uk | | after March, 25th: | | rainer.dorsch@student.uni-ulm.de | | phone: ++44-0532-458074 | | snail mail: Clarendon Road, 3 Claremont Villas, LS2 9NY Leeds, Great Britain| | | From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Mar 6 14:05:17 EST 1994 Article: 27394 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: zone 5 fall fragrance Date: 4 Mar 1994 18:59:46 GMT Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 9 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2l80f2$nro@apollo.it.luc.edu> References: <1994Mar3.213925.14395@mixcom.mixcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: david.j.daulton (djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com) wrote: : Anybody know of any others? I love the Autumn Clematis I have growing up my front porch. Small white flowers, but very fragrant (C. paniculata I *think*, not sure), and very easy to grow here in Chicago. Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jhoskins Sun Mar 6 14:05:18 EST 1994 Article: 27395 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jhoskins From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Are oak trees ugly in winter? Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:21:24 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2l8584$qd7@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: beauty.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Status: O X-Status: I have a pin oak in the front yard which still hasn't lost its foliage from last year. It occurred to me recently, especially after having helped a friend plant a Shumard Oak in her front yard on my recommendation, that oaks might be considered shaggy, ratty and ugly looking winter trees by some people. Maybe people would have a strong preference for your standard bare winter tree. Anyone out there consider oaks a poor esthetic landscape tree choice because of the way they look in winter? Jim From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!wlnntp.psi.com!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:19 EST 1994 Article: 27396 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!wlnntp.psi.com!usenet From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: getting rid of Pachysandra Date: Fri, 04 Mar 94 13:38:58 -0500 Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2971891717.1.p01353@psilink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: worldlink.com X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.6.1) Status: O X-Status: My house has had two previous owners, neither of whom were very good (or imaginative) gardeners. I am in zone 6 (b), clay soil, high water table, and the property is almost entirely shaded. My ten-year plan involves a garden with the maximum of native plants. One of my problems is that many of the areas which would be good for flower beds are now thickly covered with Japanese Pachysandra. The stuff turns out to be incredibly tough, rather resistant to Roundup, and with deep roots (I really don't know yet _how_ deep) from which it rises anew. Any bits of roots, etc., that are left in the soil (if I try to get it out by hand) have a hydra-like tendency to resprout, as well. Has anyone out there got any suggestions? The garden books I look at are just full of information on how to grow the stuff, but as far as I'm concerned it's a weed and doesn't need any help. Thanks! Mary Ellen From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!opeo!pmsrs4.pms.ford.com!wojcik Sun Mar 6 14:05:20 EST 1994 Article: 27397 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!opeo!pmsrs4.pms.ford.com!wojcik From: wojcik@pmsrs4.pms.ford.com (wojcik) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: wick/capillary matting Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:34:18 GMT Organization: Ford Motor Company -- standard disclaimers apply Lines: 22 Message-ID: <2l860aINN1cf@ope001.iao.ford.com> References: <1q3Nic2w165w@salzo.Cary.NC.US> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmsrs4.pms.ford.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Lyric Kinard (lkinard@salzo.Cary.NC.US) wrote: : Does anyone know of a source for the matting you put under seedlings that : wicks water to them for bottom watering? I've seen it with seed starting : kits but not by itself. Does it work? I always tend to forget my poor : seedlings for a ew days and let them dry out so any aid to keeping them : watered would save my garden! Capillary matting is getting hard to find. One of the last sources for it is: Violet Creations Dept. AGG 5520 Wilkins Rd. Tampa, FL 33610 (1-800-771-7421) Good Luck! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Al Wojcik FoMoCo., Dearborn MI "A lickey boom-boom down" Zone 5 - Snow ============================================================================ Internet: wojcik@pmsrs4.pms.ford.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kermit Sun Mar 6 14:05:21 EST 1994 Article: 27398 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!kermit From: kermit@netcom.com (Matt Riley) Subject: want catalogs or FAQ Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:12:22 GMT Lines: 13 Status: O X-Status: I'm looking for more garden, plant and seed catalogs. I've seen a couple of postings in this group with addresses and phone numbers, but no long listing of companies. Is there an FAQ somewhere? I love to get catalogs in the mail. I know there are more places out there. Please Email me if you don't want to post a list. Thanks, Matt kermit@netcom.com -- > Life is a placebo masquerading as a simile < > < kermit@netcom.com > -They Might Be Giants < From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!nrreddy Sun Mar 6 14:05:22 EST 1994 Article: 27399 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!nrreddy From: nrreddy@iastate.edu (Narla R Reddy) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Redwood city seed company Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:55:20 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA Lines: 17 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2l877o$8g0@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pv7017.vincent.iastate.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi, Does anyone have a telephone number for Redwood City seed company, located in California (probably in Red Wood City, if there is one such place) I am planning on getting some chili pepper seeds (real hot variety) from them. Thanks RAJA REDDY ********************************************** * Unborn Tomorrow and Dead Yesterday * * Why fret about them if Today be Sweet * * Omar Qayyam * ********************************************** -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!naples.gain.com!maxx Sun Mar 6 14:05:23 EST 1994 Article: 27401 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!naples.gain.com!maxx From: maxx@Gain.COM (Maxxwell M. Cassidy) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: How To Kill Grass For Flower Bed Date: 4 Mar 1994 21:26:31 GMT Organization: Gain Technology, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <2l8927$2bp@naples.gain.com> References: <2kaifn$dr1@crchh520.bnr.ca> <1994Feb25.001126.7693@casbs.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: santaclara.gain.com Status: O X-Status: In article Roger Jones writes: >How do you kill bamboo? >The roots are IMPOSSIBLE to dig up and the bamboo seems to laugh at >the herbicides which I have tried. The area in question is about 6'x3'. >I don't want to neutrilize the spot unless something else will eventually >grow there. > >Roger > Bamboo is easy to kill. Stop watering it. Nothing likes to be dried up altogether. I've actually killed cacti by not watering. Of course, since you didn't say where you live, I've assumed you are from the desert. It does say California in your address. Maxx Cassidy, Chamisal, NM. P.S.: Seriously, this time, bamboo is an acid-loving plant, right? So why not just put down a foot or so of wood ashes, and bring the pH up to 9-10? I guess I'm just having a hard time sympathising, because bamboo is so hard to grow here. You mean to say it hasn't yielded to the pickaxe? That's what I use to get into my soil, and I have yet to see anything that doesn't yield to large amounts of brute force. M. -- - Taos Mountain Man * /\____ * - - No Rose w/o Thorns * _/ \______ * - - No Profit w/o Work _____/ \ - - No Love w/o Trust ____/ \___- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!hobbes!maryg Sun Mar 6 14:05:23 EST 1994 Article: 27402 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!hobbes!maryg From: maryg@sco.COM () Subject: Re: Yellow pear tomatoes Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 04 Mar 1994 21:18:39 GMT Message-ID: <1994Mar04.211839.29339@sco.com> References: Sender: news@sco.com (News admin) Lines: 20 Status: O X-Status: In article sundare@watson.ibm.com (C. Sundaresan) writes: > >Has anyone grown the yellow pear tomatoes from Johnny's Selected >Seeds ... they look really nice and I just ordered a packet. >I'd like to use them as patio tomatoes in containers. Please send >or post any experiences with this variety. > >Chris Sundaresan O'Connor I got my seeds from Burpee but they are probably the same variety. They are delicious and very prolific(a friend described them as "flavor bombs"). Think of them as cherry tomatoes in behavior. They aren't resistant to the various "wilts" and diseases that tomatoes can get so don't grow them in the same spot as you grew tomatoes last year. Still, they're easy to grow and will probably do fine in a container provided you water them regularly. Enjoy, Mary From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!news Sun Mar 6 14:05:24 EST 1994 Article: 27403 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!news From: schmitz@scd.hp.com (John Schmitz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Chipper/Shredder advice sought. Date: 4 Mar 1994 14:27:06 -0800 Organization: Hewlett-Packard Lines: 15 Message-ID: <2l8cjq$hi0@mentor5.scd.hp.com> References: <1994Mar4.180155.125160@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mentor5.scd.hp.com Status: O X-Status: Re: Chipper/Shredder Buy the biggest engine you can afford. You want to get through your work as quick as you can. The smaller machines will chip 3 inch branches, but they take their time. I have a Duer 8hp and wish I had bought the 10hp. When I rent the monster machines (I hear you can get a 45hp for $15,000), I'm amazed at how quickly I can get through a huge pile of branches. Since the machines are obnoxiously loud, you want to run it as little as possible. One other note: I spend a lot of time preparing the branches to go down the chute. Mulberry is great since it is already very straight, but almond with all its different twists is a pain. A chainsaw is quite helpful. Plan to spend as much time in preparation as in actually chipping/shredding. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!SHAVELSON Sun Mar 6 14:05:25 EST 1994 Article: 27404 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.cs.brandeis.edu!binah.cc.brandeis.edu!SHAVELSON From: shavelson@binah.cc.brandeis.edu Subject: Re: Avocado Message-ID: <1994Mar4.221609.25580@news.cs.brandeis.edu> Sender: news@news.cs.brandeis.edu (USENET News System) Reply-To: shavelson@binah.cc.brandeis.edu Organization: Brandeis University Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:16:09 GMT Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: Hey, everyone, Thanks for your tips about getting an avocado seed to sprout. From what everyone said it seemed like the method I was using (suspended in water w/ toothpicks) should have worked, so it must have been (pardon the expressio)n a bad seed. I'll try again with another. Thanks again, Susanne From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!gwv Sun Mar 6 14:05:26 EST 1994 Article: 27405 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!mr.net!msc.edu!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!hemlock.cray.com!gwv From: gwv@hemlock.cray.com (George Walter VandenBerghe) Subject: Re: woodchucks and fences Message-ID: <1994Mar4.130439.20021@hemlock.cray.com> Originator: gwv@hemlock Lines: 40 Sender: gwv@hemlock (George Walter VandenBerghe) Nntp-Posting-Host: hemlock Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <94057.154814DWM7@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 4 Mar 94 13:04:39 CST Status: O X-Status: In article , ace@tidbits.com (Adam C. Engst) writes: > In article <94057.154814DWM7@psuvm.psu.edu>, wrote: > > > I intend to fence in a 30x15 garden to keep out bunnies and woodchucks. How > > high should the fence be? I was thinking maybe three feet. Can woodchucks > > climb? Any other advice or suggestions greatly appreced. > > > > D.W. Moore -- State College PA > > I wouldn't worry too much about the height as the depth. Both rabbits and > woodchucks can quite easily dig four to six inches down to go under a > fence if they want to... > > cheers ... -Adam > > -- > Adam C. Engst, TidBITS Editor -- ace@tidbits.com -- info@tidbits.com > Author of the Internet Starter Kit for Macintosh -- tisk@tidbits.com My experience has been that they usually will not expend the special effort required to get over/under a 3 foot fence buried 3" deep. My Princeton NJ garden was decimiated by a groundhog in 1982 and he got a good start in 1983 too but then I put in a 3" deep 3'tall chicken wire fence (2" mesh) and had two tunneling incidents in two years. I simply plugged the tunnels and they did not try again. (however in a second garden in the city proper, another older tougher individual went through my chicken wire fence with his teeth; I actually had a chance to attack him with a heavy hoe but could not bring myself to do it and simply lowered the gate to let him out) this happened in July 1983. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:27 EST 1994 Article: 27406 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet From: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com (Susan Argyle) Subject: Re: Buffalo Grass ?? Message-ID: <1994Mar4.221641.3893@mksol.dseg.ti.com> Sender: usenet@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: ews19.dseg.ti.com Reply-To: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc. Dallas, TX References: Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:16:41 GMT Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: In article 030394161903@128.200.137.52, ucivet@uci.edu (Clifford R. Roberts DVM) writes: > We are here in southern Ca (alkaline clay soil) looking for a low water use > lawn grass. Buffalo grass (Buchloe sp) has been recommended, with a turf > agronomist recommending sod of a vegetatively propagated type over a seeded > type(*much* cheaper). We realize that during the short winter days the > grass will be brown. > Any experiences/preferences out there? > > cr roberts > ucivet@uci.edu Buffalo grass is highly recommended in the Dallas area. It is drought and heat tolerant, so is frequently used for large open areas (like the green areas around public buildings). Original Buffalo grass is quite coarse, but the newer varieties are more acceptable for lawns. Almost any grass that will grow well in Dallas in the summer turns brown in the winter. I have some friends who planted Buffalo grass in their back yard and were quite pleased. Susan From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:28 EST 1994 Article: 27407 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!usenet From: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com (Susan Argyle) Subject: Re: Advise on lowering pH Message-ID: <1994Mar4.223929.4839@mksol.dseg.ti.com> Sender: usenet@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: ews19.dseg.ti.com Reply-To: argyle@ews7.dseg.ti.com Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc. Dallas, TX References: <1994Mar4.014254.15744@btree.brooktree.com> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:39:29 GMT Lines: 31 Status: O X-Status: In article 15744@btree.brooktree.com, markski@btree.brooktree.com (Mark Sankowski) writes: > I recently purchased a soil test kit (pH-n-p-k). I checked my > pH, and the reading I got was 10! Does this sound right? If so, how much > of what do I need to add to get my pH down to 6.5 - 7.0? > The size of the area is approx 250 sq. ft. Also, can I add the stuff if > I already have plants in the ground (tomatoes, peas, onions, celery, > spinach and radishes) without shocking them? > I'm located in San Diego, Cal. > I should also add that this is a one year old garden which was mostly > clay and sand, but has been given plenty of compost, manure, peat moss > and topsoil to "liven it up" a bit. > Any and all advise would be appreciated. > -- > > UUCP: ...ucsd!btree!markski The local (Dallas) "organic gardening guru" advises against lowering the pH by artifical means. He contends that a) you can't keep the pH down indefinitely, b) the plants will eventually grow beyond the pH-modified area, and then will suffer shock, and c) it can be very expensive. He recommends selecting plants that are adapted the soil pH (e.g., no azaleas). People do raise acid-loving plants here, but it is a commitment to high maintenance with chancy results. He does highly recommend adding compost and manure to the soil (not peat moss). pH values are typically high in arid areas - your 10 may be correct. Susan From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Sun Mar 6 14:05:28 EST 1994 Article: 27408 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, ADN Computer Center Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:09:17 CST From: Message-ID: <94063.160917U14371@uicvm.uic.edu> Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Spy Apples-where can I get Distribution: usa References: Lines: 19 Status: O X-Status: In article , khuizeng@mondrian.CSUFresno.EDU (Kirk Huizenga) says: > >I am interested in any info on purchasing bare-root apple trees -- >specifically the Spy variety. I know I can just go to my local nursery >and buy common variety apple trees. You can get Northern Spys from Bear Creek Nursery in Northport, WA. I don't recall the specific address, but it's not that big a town. Just call the P.O. for the ZIP and that should get it there. There are others who I don't recall just now, but I've done business with BCN and they are very helpful. You will also get good quality at reasonable prices. {This has been an unpaid endorsement.} Just a thought, but you might want to mention that you heard about them here (rec.gardens). I don't think it will get you anything, but it would probably be a good idea for the mailorder people to know that we're here. Hope that helps. Hans Goeckner From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Sun Mar 6 14:05:29 EST 1994 Article: 27409 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, ADN Computer Center Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 16:21:58 CST From: Message-ID: <94063.162158U14371@uicvm.uic.edu> Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Wildflowers for wet clay soil? Distribution: world References: <105324@cup.portal.com> Lines: 15 Status: O X-Status: In article <105324@cup.portal.com>, mothra@cup.portal.com (Elise - Swope) says: > >Can anyone recommend some wildflowers for wet clay soil (tropics)? I've >been very tempted by all of the wildflower seed catalogs I've recieved of >late, but experience has taught me that lot's of things described as "easy" in >mainland seed catalogs will not grow here (Hawaii). How tolerant of variable >conditions are wildflower seeds? If I order a blend developed for the south >east, gulf coast will it work? I don't mean this as a dig or anything, but why the *%&^$ do you want to grow N.A. wildflowers in HAWAII? Surely there are local natives well suited to your soil and climate which would do at least as well as any of 'ours'. Hawaii has some of the prettiest native flowers I've ever seen. Just a thought. Hans Goeckner From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!headwall.Stanford.EDU!w6yx.stanford.edu!alpha Sun Mar 6 14:05:29 EST 1994 Article: 27410 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!headwall.Stanford.EDU!w6yx.stanford.edu!alpha From: alpha@w6yx.stanford.edu (Alpha) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Redwood city seed company Date: 4 Mar 1994 23:57:06 GMT Organization: Stanford Amateur Radio Club Lines: 21 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2l8hsi$rqu@nntp2.Stanford.EDU> References: <2l877o$8g0@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: w6yx.stanford.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <2l877o$8g0@news.iastate.edu> nrreddy@iastate.edu (Narla R Reddy) writes: > >Hi, > Does anyone have a telephone number for Redwood City seed company, >located in California (probably in Red Wood City, if there is one such place) >I am planning on getting some chili pepper seeds (real hot variety) from them. Redwood City Seed Company PO Box 361 Redwood City CA 94064 415-325-7333 alpha -- Alpha/Spasmodic enthusiasm, sense of infallibility, brusque, neurotic, destruc- tive, unbridled free expression, perverse self-will, hell-bent, compulsive, impulsive, suspicious, hyper-vigilant, reactionary, violent, without remorse, immature, insolent, intolerant, uncompromising--In other words, LUCID!!! From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!ichthous!mcgrew Sun Mar 6 14:05:30 EST 1994 Article: 27411 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!koriel!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!jethro.Corp.Sun.COM!exodus.Eng.Sun.COM!ichthous!mcgrew From: mcgrew@ichthous.Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Want to grow pole beans Date: 4 Mar 1994 23:46:58 GMT Organization: Sun Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ichthous Keywords: Pole Beans, trellis, netting Status: O X-Status: jbankos@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Jeffrey Bankos) writes: >I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only planting bush >types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to install trellis I can use to let >the vines grow on. Can anybody tell me what they've used in the past to grow >beans on? Thanks I've found thin-wall electrical conduit useful for trellissing vines of various sorts. It is lightweight, rigid, and reasonably priced at $1-2 per 10' length (price depends on the diameter you want). You can just bolt a top crosspiece between vertical uprights, or you can spend another $4-6 and buy a couple of elbow-joints. Darin.McGrew@Eng.Sun.COM The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or dumb? Who gives him sight Soli Deo Gloria! or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?" From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!mindlink.bc.ca!a8331 Sun Mar 6 14:05:31 EST 1994 Article: 27412 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!deep.rsoft.bc.ca!mindlink.bc.ca!a8331 From: Moira_Carlson@mindlink.bc.ca (Moira Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re:Black Walnut Compatible Plants Date: 5 Mar 94 00:20:01 GMT Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 103 Distribution: world Message-ID: <39967@mindlink.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: mindlink.bc.ca Status: O X-Status: In response to Douglas P. Ruth: drr@infinet.com who writes: >A gardening friend of mine would like to know what plants can be planted >around black walnut trees and still grow. He wants a lsit of flowers and >small shrubs. How close to the walnut can they be placed? >Thanks for yor replies in advance. The following list of plants was given by Frank Robinson in the October 1986 edition of Horticulture as being compatible with Black Walnuts (i.e., not effected by juglone poisoning). HERBACEOUS PERENNIALS: Ajuga reptans, bugleweed Alcae rosea, hollyhock Asarum europaeum, European wild ginger Astilbe Campanula latifolia, bellflower Chrysanthemum, hardy chrysanthemum Doronicum, leopard's bane Dryopteris cristata, crested wood fern Galium odoratum, sweet woodruff Geranium robertianum, herb Robert G. sanguineum, cranesbill Helianthus tuberosus, Jerusalem artichoke Hemerocallis fulva, common daylily Henchera X brizoides "Pluie de Feu", coral bells Hieracium aurantiacum, orange hawkweed Hosta fortunei "Glauca", plantain lily H.lancifolia H.marginata H.undulata "variegata" Hydrophyllum virginianum, Virginia waterleaf Iris sibirica, Siberian iris Monard didyma, bee balm M. fistulosa, wild bergamot Oenothera fruticosa, sundrops Onoclea sensibilis, sensitive fern Osmunda cinnamontea, cinnamon fern Phlox paniculata, summer phlox Polemonium reptans, Jacob's ladder Polygonatum commutatum, great Solomon's seal Primula x polyantha, polyanthus primrose Pulmonaria, lungwort Sanguinaria canadensis, bloodroot S. canadensis "Multiplex",double-flowered bloodroot Sedum acre, gold moss S. spectabile Stachys byzantina, lamb's ear Tradescantia virginiana, spiderwort Trillium cernuum, nodding trillium T. grandiflorum, white wake-robin Uvularia grandiflora, big merrybells Viola canadensis, Canada violet V. sororia, woolly blue violet BULBS: Chionodoxa luciliae, glory-of-the-snow Crocus Endymion hispanicus, Spanish bluebell Eranthis hyemalis, winter aconite Galanthus nivalis, snowdrop Hyacinthus "City of Haarlem" Muscari botryoides, grape hyacinth Narcissus "Cheerfulness", "Yellow Cheerfulness", "Geranium", "Tete a Tete", "Sundial" and "February Gold" Scilla siberica, blue squill Tulipa Darwin "White Volcano" and "Cum Laude" Parrot "Blue Parrot" Greigii "Toronto" TREES: Acer palmatum, Japanese maple A. palmatum "Dissectum", cutleaf Japanese maple Catalpa bignonioides, common catalpa Tsuga canadensis, Canadian hemlock VINES AND SHRUBS: Clematis "Red Cardinal" Daphne mezereum, February daphne Forshythia suspensa, Weeping forsythia Hibiscus syriacus, rose of Sharon Lonicera tatarica, Tartarian honeysuckly Parthenocissus quinquefolia, Virginia creeper Rhododendron periclymenoides, pinxterbloom R.Exbury hybrids "Gilbralter" and "Balzac" ANNUALS: Begoinia, fibrous cultivars and tuberous cultivar "Nonstop" Calendula officinalis, pot marigold Ipomoea "Heavenly Blue", morning glory Viola cornuta, horned violet V.x wittrockiana, pansy WEEDS: Glechoma hederacea, ground ivy Oxalis corniculata, creeping lady's sorrel Stellaria media, chickweed Taraxacum officinale, dandelion Veronica filiformis, creeping veronica From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!calspan!calspan.com!pace Sun Mar 6 14:05:32 EST 1994 Article: 27413 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!calspan!calspan.com!pace From: pace@calspan.com (Tom Pace) Subject: Christmass/Easter Cactus problems Message-ID: Summary: What is wrong with this cactus? Keywords: cactus, easter, christmass Sender: usenet@calspan.com Nntp-Posting-Host: geordi Organization: Calspan Advanced Technology Center Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:27:30 GMT Lines: 15 Status: O X-Status: A friend has a Christmass Cactus which is not doing well at all. She describes it as looking wilty and failing to bloom. Here are some details, - its about 10 years old - occasionally fertalized - hasn't changed the soil in a long while - other christmass cactus' around it are doing fine Whats the buzz? My thoughts are a soil change and review of the roots are in order. I would like to hear from more experienced folks out there. Thanks TAPace PS Reply to my account or if you like being direct try hers at LCZK@calspan.com. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!nova.sti.nasa.gov!news.gsfc.nasa.gov!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:32 EST 1994 Article: 27414 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!nova.sti.nasa.gov!news.gsfc.nasa.gov!usenet From: schaefer@gondwana.gsfc.nasa.gov. (Martha Schaefer) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Plumeria Question Date: 5 Mar 1994 00:55:26 GMT Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center -- InterNetNews site Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2l8l9u$jti@paperboy.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <2l5iam$dfl@access2.digex.net> Reply-To: schaefer@tgrs.gsfc.nasa.gov. (Martha Schaefer) NNTP-Posting-Host: gondwana.gsfc.nasa.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: In article <2l5iam$dfl@access2.digex.net> igor@access2.digex.net (Dan White) writes: > Hi, > > My late mother-in-law had two large pots in which she has Plumeria > (the Hawaiian tree/shrub from which lei flowers come) which are > growing like weeds and throwing blossoms 2 or 3 times a year. > > Here's the problem - they are rapidly becoming more tree-ish and less > bushy. I'd like to chop it back and root the choppings, but I do not > want to do it without knowing what I am doing. > > Can anyone out there offer advice or a pointer to same ? There is an excellent book, "The Handbook on Plumeria Culture", by Richard and Mary Helen Eggenberger (LCC number 88-092641), which will tell you everything you need to know. In a nutshell, take cuttings 12-15 inches long from firm, grey wood, ideally in late spring. Tip cuttings can be of any length as long as they include 3-4 inches of grey wood. Remove all large leaves, make sure the base of the cutting is smooth (you can just tear them off the main plant, but trim afterwards). Dry thoroughly for at least a few days (some say a few weeks!), in a warm, shaded area. You can root in a mixture of 2/3 coarse perlite and 1/3 peat, or try plain water. Don't plant too deep, and don't disturb the young roots - they are very fragile. Test for roots by feeling gently into the medium, an inch or two from the stem. New growth dowsn't imply roots! Good luck! I brought back several stems from Hawaii, and succeeded rooting one of them, and I had never tried it before. -Martha Schaefer From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Mar 6 14:05:33 EST 1994 Article: 27415 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Are oak trees ugly in winter? Date: 5 Mar 1994 01:06:42 GMT Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 8 Message-ID: <2l8lv2$sgh@apollo.it.luc.edu> References: <2l8584$qd7@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: James M Hoskins (jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote: : Anyone out there consider oaks a poor esthetic landscape : tree choice because of the way they look in winter? No! Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!ruacad!dlawrenc Sun Mar 6 14:05:34 EST 1994 Article: 27416 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!ruacad!dlawrenc From: dlawrenc@mathstat.ms.runet.edu (Don Lawrence) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Organization: Radford University X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:46:51 GMT Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: An interesting book on Oranges (history, varities,e etc.) is Oranges by John McPhee. "More than you ever wanted to know" told in McPhee's charming style. -- ******************************************************** * Jenny & Don Lawrence * It's a damn poor mind that * * 101 Monroe Street * can only think of one way * * Radford, VA 24141 * to spell a word. * From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cyber2.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!suncad!freenet.Victoria.BC.CA!ua024 Sun Mar 6 14:05:35 EST 1994 Article: 27417 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cyber2.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!suncad!freenet.Victoria.BC.CA!ua024 From: ua024@freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (Diane Whitehead) Subject: Re: Help with mango seedling. Message-ID: Sender: news@suncad.camosun.bc.ca (USENET News System) Reply-To: ua024@freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (Diane Whitehead) Organization: The Victoria Freenet Association (VIFA), Victoria, B.C., Canada References: <2ktvi0$82s@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <2kt624$sp8@news.bu.edu> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 02:57:38 GMT Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: I think there must be a dwarf mango, as a friend's father in Singapore kept one in a pot. He was reported to fertilize it daily with the contents of his chamberpot, and it flourished and fruited. Certainly the normal tree is a good size. One shaded the market in the small town where I taught, and the barber worked in its shade. I kept one alive here in Canada for a couple of years, until the greenhouse dipped to freezing one night. It didn't bother the oranges, or avocadoes, but the mango was dead. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai181 Sun Mar 6 14:05:36 EST 1994 Article: 27418 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai181 From: ai181@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mary Seal) Subject: Re: Want to grow pole beans Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca Reply-To: ai181@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mary Seal) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <6.11314.1607.0NAE8869@spacebbs.com> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 03:24:42 GMT Lines: 81 Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, ted.jensen@spacebbs.com (Ted Jensen) says: >On 03-03-94 Jeffrey Bankos wrote: > >> I'm going to try some pole beans this year after years of only >> planting bush types. I need to make/buy a cheap and easy to >> install trellis I can use to let the vines grow on. Can anybody >> tell me what they've used in the past to grow beans on? Thanks > > > > /|<--------D > / | <---A > C------->/ | > / | > / | > / | > / | > | | > B------>| /| > | / | > /|\ /<-----G > / | \/ > / | /\ > / |/ \<-----E > / | \ > |/ | \|<-----F > >Last year I used electrical conduit. This is inexpensive steel >tubing that you can get at your hardware store. It is relatively >easy to cut with a hack saw. The sketch above illustrates. I >made my trellis about 6-1/2 feet high. Straight conduit was used >for the two vertical sections (A & B) and the horizontal section >at the top (C). The two top corners (D for example) were fitted >with 90 degree elbows, easily connected with a screwdriver. > >I then stuck the whole thing in the ground and about 3 inches >above ground I tied a string between the two vertical supports >(G). I drilled a small hole in each vertical at this height and >used a sheet metal screw to tie the string to. This year I'm >going to see if I can find a 'T' connection and use another piece >of conduit for G. > >I then obtained some nylon string and ran pieces vertically >between G and the top bar about every 2 inches. Actually I sort >of zig-zagged it back and forth instead of using several >independent pieces of string. > >This worked fine until the bean plants filled up the area and >then I found on windy days the whole thing would tend to slant at >an angle. I then added some more holes to add string to and put >stakes in the ground (e.g. F) and tied the thing down better >(e.g. E). > >Seemed to work reasonably well. With the additions mentioned, I >am going to build 2 more and run 3 such trellises this year. >So... there's one approach for you to consider. > >Hope this helps! >Ted Jensen >Redwood City, Calif. > > > * SLMR 2.1a * > Not having the resources for making climbing units with rustic poles, I use bamboo canes. They can be tied into a tee-pee form. Underneath this I grow lettuce or anything else that doesn't like the hot sun. The tee-pee is taken down at the end of the growing season and erected in another spot the following year. I think that there is a plastic gizmo that one can buy to hold the canes in place, but I just stick with the twine. In case you're interested I have tried a few different varieties of pole beans. Kentucky Blue is my favourite as it doesn't turn stringy and tough. It freezes well too. Just thought you might be interested! |-) Mary -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ Sun Mar 6 14:05:36 EST 1994 Article: 27419 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ From: "John E. Snyder" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: composting shredded laser paper Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 22:47:56 -0500 Organization: Doctoral student, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 50 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Status: O X-Status: Excerpts from netnews.rec.gardens: 3-Mar-94 Re: composting shredded las.. by Darin McGrew@ichthous.En > From: mcgrew@ichthous.Eng.Sun.COM (Darin McGrew) > Subject: Re: composting shredded laser paper > Date: 3 Mar 1994 00:39:05 GMT > > In article <2MAR94.16163859@shrsys.hslc.org> bshoop@shrsys.hslc.org writes: > >My office has lots of shredded paper from out laser printers. (financial stuff) > > >Is there any danger of chemicals from the toner if I compost the stuff or use > >it as mulch in the garden? > > Good question. Thanks for posting it. > > Now, does anyone know the answer? > > > Also how about using shredded news paper? > > Regular black newspaper ink is soy-based, so it is safe. > > Colored inks (especially yellow) contain heavy metals and similar > chemicals. Some people say you should avoid color printing when > composting/mulching newsprint. Others say that by the time you > compost/mulch the newsprint, the chemicals are at background > levels and can be ignored. > > I'm essentially undecided, but since I have plenty of newsprint > without colored inks to last a while, I don't have to decide yet. > > Darin.McGrew@Eng.Sun.COM The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? > Who makes him deaf or dumb? Who gives him sight > Soli Deo Gloria! or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?" > A thought along these lines just occurred to me: Do major newspapers still use linotypes and lead type? If so, would enough of the lead wear away on the paper for it to accumulate in the compost pile? Anbody know? Thanks John snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail Sun Mar 6 14:05:37 EST 1994 Article: 27420 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:47:30 -0800 Organization: California Technology Project of The Calif State Univ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <2l92t2$ocp@eis.calstate.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: eis.calstate.edu Status: O X-Status: In December, the Northern California chapters of the California Rare Fruit Growers met at Lindcove, the University of California's Central Valley citrus research facility. We tasted Mandarins, Navels, grapefruits and other in season fruit as well as listening to a lecture on Mandarins grown in Spain being considered for growth in California (Louise travels the world to find new varieties for growth in California. From her lecture, the packing industry's concerns center around seediness and time of ripening. Consumers have demonstrated a reluctance to buy fruit with seeds (Some of my favorites have seeds, but I don't make marketing decisions). Ripening is important to packing houses because they don't want to add extra lines. They are looking for fruit that will ripen during off times so they can use unused capacity. They alos like fruit that ripens when the prices are high. Other concerns are such factors as retaining stems and uniform size. They don't want stems staying on that poke holes in other fruit. They also want a uniform size since they sell fruit by the count box -and want to minimize sorting. I don't think there is any intentional conspiracy to sell lousy tasting oranges. given the restraints of the industry, I think growers will sell what their market will buy. What makes it to the local produce market may not necessarily be the best that is out there. I spoke with a grower of pears, plums and apples. He ships to specialty markets in Boston and to Japan, even though he lives here in the Sierra Foothills. The same is true in citrus; restaurants, specialty markets, fruit of the month clubs, etc. provide a better return for the farmer who is trying to mzximize his return. - Bruce Moon Rio Linda, CA From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:38 EST 1994 Article: 27421 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: fwr@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Gurneys Catalog??? Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:09:03 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5W1Jv03.fwr@delphi.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1b.delphi.com X-To: WILSON ELLIS VANCE Status: O X-Status: WILSON ELLIS VANCE writes: >Can someone please reply with phone number and/or address for Gurneys? > Gurney's Seed & Nursery Co. 110 Capital Street Yankton, SD 57079 (605) 665-1671 Fax (605) 665-9718 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:39 EST 1994 Article: 27422 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!nigel.msen.com!yale.edu!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: ehkuhall7@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Heating Pad? Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:45:49 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 8 Message-ID: <56yIfG9.ehkuhall7@delphi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com Status: O X-Status: Although I have grown two successful vegetable gardens and spring bulbs too, I have NEVER been able to start seeds successfully in doors. Still, I am going to try again. My house is 55-62 during the day. Is this too cold. Do I need a heating pad as well as a flat with a plastic lid? Eileen H. Kramer ehkuhall7@delphi.com ehk@uc1.ucs.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet Sun Mar 6 14:05:40 EST 1994 Article: 27423 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!news.delphi.com!usenet From: ehkuhall7@delphi.com Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: How to plant Lonas seeds Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 01:54:48 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5Y7qf0w.ehkuhall7@delphi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com Status: O X-Status: Both Parks and Nichols offer yellow ageratum (really lonas) seeds, but neither catalog nor the gardening encyclopedia in the library where I work tells me how to plant them. Must I wait until all danger of frost is passed (Memorial Day Weekend -- I am in zone 4 with a vengence!) or do I start them from seed out of doors earlier (I hope never having had any luck with indoor starts). Thanks in advance. Eileen H. Kramer ehkuhall7@delphi.com ehk@uc1.ucsu.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!tardis!tymix.Tymnet.COM!drawson Sun Mar 6 14:05:40 EST 1994 Article: 27424 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!tardis!tymix.Tymnet.COM!drawson From: drawson@Tymnet.com (Dick Rawson) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Bumblebees underground Message-ID: <2l04r5$eh8@tymix.Tymnet.COM> Date: 1 Mar 94 19:25:25 GMT References: <2k8f2c$i3v@sundog.tiac.net> Distribution: usa Organization: MCI, San Jose CA. Lines: 11 NNTP-Posting-Host: sagehen.tymnet.com Status: O X-Status: Adam Finkelstein commented that > Beekeepers for the most part keep _honeybees_ not bumblebees. Agreed. But a propos that, the BEE-L discussion list also talks about bumblebees, although a separate list was announced (dunno if it is active). BEE-L is located at LISTSERV@UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU. The bumblebee LISTSERV discussion list (info as of Nov 1993): To join or leave the list, send a message to bombus-request@csi.uottawa.ca. Dick Rawson drawson@tymnet.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller Sun Mar 6 14:05:41 EST 1994 Article: 27425 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!sgiblab!sgigate.sgi.com!olivea!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller From: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu (Dick and Jill Miller) Message-ID: <9403051304.AA06050@im8> Subject: Toner into the garden - NOT! Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 08:04:15 EST X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA28342; Sat, 5 Mar 94 05:05:16 -0800 X-Received: from IM.LCS.MIT.EDU by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/13Jan94) id AA26049; Sat, 5 Mar 94 05:02:02 -0800 X-Received: from im8 (IM8.LCS.MIT.EDU) by im (4.1/TOC-1.1S) id AA22429; Sat, 5 Mar 94 08:04:18 EST X-Received: by im8 (4.1/TOC-1.1C) id AA06050; Sat, 5 Mar 94 08:04:15 EST X-To: rec.gardens.usenet Lines: 19 Status: O X-Status: My thanks to all who answered my post about whether I should compost used laser-printer toner. The most knowledgeable answer came from a non-net chemist friend. He took the empty bottle to work to look up all the pigment numbers listed. A co-worker, who had done chemical analysis of other manufacturers' toner warned that all the ingredients are not always listed! And that he had found chromium compounds (as a contaminant?) in another company's toner that he had analyzed. Chromium does NOT go into my garden, thank you. So, now I know and warn the rest of rec.gardeners. Do not compost toner. --Jill A. Richard & Jill A. Miller | MILLER MICROCOMPUTER SERVICES | InterNet: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu | 61 Lake Shore Road | Voice: 508/653-6136, 9am-9pm -0500(EST)| Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA | MMSFORTH: The cure for the common code.| 42 18'00.79" N, 71 22'27.68" W| From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!inca.gate.net!not-for-mail Sun Mar 6 14:05:42 EST 1994 Article: 27426 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!inca.gate.net!not-for-mail From: len_w@inca.gate.net (Leonard Waldman) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: More sensitive plant question. Date: 5 Mar 1994 09:03:14 -0500 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2la3f2$101f@inca.gate.net> References: <2kj7ja$i0q@fermat.mayo.edu> <2kl4dt$b5n@apollo.it.luc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: inca.gate.net X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: John A. Mcnulty (jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu) wrote: : Cernohous (icernohous@mayo.edu) wrote: : : Thank you for all the information of where to get the sensitive plants. : : Seems that there really are tropical plants. Any idea how I can keep : : them : : alive in cold state here at Rochester, Minnesota?? : There are several native species of sensitive plants in Illinois. : Cassia nictitans is the wild sensitive plant here and Cassia : fasciculata (partridge pea) is supposed to react somewhat to : touch. I have just started growning sensitive plant in my : native garden, so I don't know how well it performs. I think : I bought mine at the Natural Garden in St. Charles, IL... : Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!caen!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!relay!relay2!relay-wo!dtix.dt.navy.mil!oasys.dt.navy.mil!not-for-mail Sun Mar 6 14:05:42 EST 1994 Article: 27427 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!caen!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!relay!relay2!relay-wo!dtix.dt.navy.mil!oasys.dt.navy.mil!not-for-mail From: tillman@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Fred Tillman) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: getting rid of Pachysandra Date: 5 Mar 1994 08:23:17 -0500 Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD Lines: 6 Message-ID: <2la145INNeio@oasys.dt.navy.mil> References: <2971891717.1.p01353@psilink.com> Reply-To: tillman@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Fred Tillman) NNTP-Posting-Host: oasys.dt.navy.mil Status: O X-Status: Mary Ellen, in many areas, homeowners and landscapers will remove it for you if you let it be known that it is free. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!noc.near.net!balder.novalink.com!loki!bull Sun Mar 6 14:05:43 EST 1994 Article: 27428 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!MathWorks.Com!noc.near.net!balder.novalink.com!loki!bull From: bull@novalink.com (Angela Bull) Newsgroups: rec.arts.movies,rec.audio,rec.aviation.misc,rec.gardens,rec.music.misc,sci.misc,us.wanted.misc Subject: Writers Wanted Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 94 10:21:14 EST Organization: NovaLink, 800-274-2814 (voice) or 800-825-8852 (data) Lines: 37 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.arts.movies:122716 rec.audio:58943 rec.aviation.misc:10118 rec.gardens:27428 rec.music.misc:93469 sci.misc:5230 Status: O X-Status: ** WRITERS WANTED FOR ONLINE FORUMS ** A unique opportunity for ambitious opinion leaders -- your own special interest magazine online. Is there a subject that excites you? Are your a veritable font of information on that topic. Can you write interesting and informative articles with a bit of flair? Do you have five to ten hours a week to spend pursuing a career in writing? Would you enjoy conducting "Talk shows" in online teleconferences or conducting trivia contests about your subject? For a limited time, NovaLink, a nationally advertised online information service, is seeking writers to form a core group of sysops for its special interest groups online. This is your chance to be part of something big while it is still small. The royalties you receive for producing your forum will be insignificant for the months it will take you to develop it. Thus, you should have a genuine interest in writing about your subject and discussing it with others online. Part of your motivation should be a desire to be a vital component of the commercially operated "online culture." Interested people must have telnet access on the Internet, else be located in Central Massachusetts. Excellent writing skills required. You must be over eighteen. No special computing skills necessary. For more information write forums@novalink.com with "send info" in the text. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Angela Bull "You can never be too rich, Vice President, Chief Bottle Washer too thin, or have too fast Inner Circle Technologies, Inc. (NovaLink) an Internet Connection." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!falcon.ccs.uwo.ca!zaphod Sun Mar 6 14:05:44 EST 1994 Article: 27429 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!falcon.ccs.uwo.ca!zaphod From: zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: moving pond fish Date: 5 Mar 1994 16:14:34 GMT Organization: The University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Canada Lines: 18 Message-ID: <2lab5a$hhr@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: alex.ctrg.rri.uwo.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Status: O X-Status: i am moving from London Ontario (just north, across the lake, from cleavland ohio) to Vancouver BC (2 hours north of seattle, Wa). i have a garden pond here, and while i will leave the plants and the frog and the bog, i would like to take the fish (a pair of 7 inch carp) with me. problem is, there is no pond in my new house, and it could take me a month to dig and set up a new pond... does anyone have suggestions as to where i might keep the fish for a month? how much water would 14 inches of fish need? -- Lance R. Bailey System/Network Manager Robarts Research Institute NeXT/email: zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca box: Clinical Trials Resources Group fax: +1 519 663 3789 P.O. Box 5015, 100 Perth Dr. vox: +1 519 663 3787 x4108 London, Canada N6A 5K8 Duct tape is the force:a dark side,a white side, & holding the universe together From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Mar 6 14:05:44 EST 1994 Article: 27430 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: composting shredded laser paper Date: 5 Mar 1994 16:22:12 GMT Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2labjk$4up@apollo.it.luc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: (Darin wrote, I think, but I snipped too much) : > Regular black newspaper ink is soy-based, so it is safe. : > : > Colored inks (especially yellow) contain heavy metals and similar : > chemicals. Some people say you should avoid color printing when Then John added: : Do major newspapers still use linotypes and lead type? According to Mr. Compost, awhile back, they aren't using heavy metals anymore in newspaper inks, so you can compost them, colored or B/W. I don't know about inkjets or lasers. BTW, where *is* Mr. Compost? Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!UB.com!daver!dlb!megatest!sfisher Sun Mar 6 14:05:45 EST 1994 Article: 27431 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!UB.com!daver!dlb!megatest!sfisher From: sfisher@megatest.com (Scott Fisher) Subject: Re: fenugreek: advice needed Message-ID: Keywords: fenugreek Organization: Megatest Corporation References: <2kqq95$iku@aludra.usc.edu> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 1994 17:43:20 GMT Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: In article <2kqq95$iku@aludra.usc.edu> pappas@aludra.usc.edu (A. Pappas) writes: >Hi, I live in LA and would like to grow fenugreek in my garden. >We have heavy clay soil, for the most part. > >Does anyone know how this plant grows in its native habitat? Has >anyone out there in garden-space grown this before? Thanks. I grew some last year (N. Calif) in a garden square prepared for herbs. My earth started out as clay, I amend heavily with compost and vermiculite to overcome this. The fenugreek took off like gangbusters. I never saw anything germiniate so quickly. My problem, was that, after having done this, I wasn't sure what part was edible... I know it is an ingredient in Indian cooking (which is why I wanted to grow some) but I wasn't sure if it was the leaves, the seeds, if they needed to be dried, or what. If someone knows, I'd like to try again. --Kim Fisher From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!wordshop.demon.co.uk!Cooper Sun Mar 6 14:05:46 EST 1994 Article: 27432 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens From: Cooper@wordshop.demon.co.uk (Gary Cooper) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!wordshop.demon.co.uk!Cooper Subject: Re: Fungus and Seed Sprouting References: Organization: Wordshop Reply-To: Cooper@wordshop.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.27 Lines: 40 Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 15:28:34 +0000 Message-ID: <762794914snz@wordshop.demon.co.uk> Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk Status: O X-Status: In article krtbrown@csn.org "Kurt Brown" writes: > I have white fuzz growing on top of my seed germination flat. I planted a > number of seeds in rockwool and covered them with a peat/vermiculite mix. > I covered the flat with a clear plastic dome and put it on my 74F degree > heating mat. In a couple days I found this fungus starting to grow so I > sprayed it with Safers' sulfer based fungicide. This didn't make any > difference. Next I took the dome off. The fungus seems to have dried out > a bit but the seeds aren't doing anything. One of the bean seeds started > to come up and stopped. > > 1. Should I trash the whole mess and start over? > 2. How should I sterilize my next batch? > 3. Should I skip the humidty dome and just water more frequently? > 4. Should I give up gardening and raise bunnies instead??? This is almost certainly damping off and is the bane of seed-raisers everywhere. The chances are that you let your growing medium become too wet and that not everything you used was properly sterile (it could even have been that the plastic dome you used was carrying the fungus spores). Additionally, if the dome had no ventilation slots then you are almost certainly creating too humid a climate. You may also not have sown the seed thinly enough. >From what you've said my (bitter) experience would suggest your best bet is to start again. Use a sterile growing medium (soilless composts seem to work best for me) make sure every tray and cover you use has been scrubbed clean and is as sterile as you can get it. Make sure that there is some ventilation after sowing, always use mains water (the fungal spores can be spread by 'stale' water) and - most importantly of all - use a copper-based fungicide when watering. Although the last sounds excessive to organic purists, the sad fact is that the spores of the fungus causing damping off seem to be so prevelant now that it is worth doing in sufficient cases to be almost a golden rule. Try a copper-based fungicide, improve ventilation and cut back on the watering. As for giving up gardening - is this *possible*? :) Hope that helps, -- Gary Cooper From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!grover.ucs.indiana.edu!grover Sun Mar 6 14:05:47 EST 1994 Article: 27433 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!usenet.ucs.indiana.edu!grover.ucs.indiana.edu!grover From: Doug Grover Subject: Re: Daffodills in pots? Message-ID: X-Xxmessage-Id: X-Xxdate: Sat, 5 Mar 94 18:54:45 GMT Sender: news@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: grover.ucs.indiana.edu Organization: UCS X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d17 References: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 17:54:30 GMT Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: Daffodills in pots? Possibly the depth of soil in your pots? If the daffs were growing in the ground, the bulb tops would be about four or five inches below the surface, so the leaves have some support. If your pots are shallow, like a conventional bulb pan, you might try something deeper. Observation is the only basis for this -- I always end up with floppy narcissus and daffs when I force them (I just tie string around them loosely to help hold them up) but the ones in the garden never seem to droop until they start to brown off. Doug Grover From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com Sun Mar 6 14:05:49 EST 1994 Article: 27434 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com From: gkiewicz@oeonline.com (Pat & George Kiewicz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: vermiculture Message-ID: <46@oeonline.UUCP> Date: 3 Mar 94 15:14:23 GMT References: <9402222303.AA29709@im8> <2l3d6u$scq@panix.com> Sender: coconet@oeonline.UUCP Lines: 54 Status: O X-Status: [various people ask about sources of worms for vermiculture] > Speaking without much knowledge of the subject, I note that on page 38 of > the Henry Field's Seed & Nursery Co. 1994 Catalogue, there is an offering > of Red Hybrid Worms. The price is $19.95 for a pack of 500 ($18.95 for 2 > or more) or $43.95 for a pack of 2000 ($41.85 for 2 or more). I do not > know if these are the worms that you seek; they are advertised as "The > natural way to aerate your garden soil!" > > Henry Field's Seed & Nursery Co. > 415 North Burnett > Shenandoah, Iowa 51602 > > Harvey > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Harvey Fishman | There is no greater failure than > fishman@panix.com | that of making an enemy. > 718-258-7276 | > > > A couple of other sources I can mention: Gardener's Supply 128 Intervale Rd. Burlington VT 05401 TEL 1-800-444-6417 'Red Wiggler's' item #2-232 2 pounds $24.95 + S/H This is the company which supplied MY worms. They are shipped to you directly from the 'grower'. 2# should be 2,000+ worms. The worms were young and thus easily adjusted to their new home after shipment. My husband ordered an entire kit (worms, bin, and Ms. Appelhof's book) as a birthday present for me -- and it was just what I wanted!!! Redworms can also be bought through Gardens Alive! (500/$19.95 1,000/$27.95 + S/H) Henry Fields beats them on the S/H charges. I've also read that worms can be purchased from Ms. Appelhof's Flowerfield Enterprise, but I have no idea of the going rate. TEL (616)327-0108. Hope this information proves useful. I *love* my worm-bin. -- //Pat Kiewicz\\ gkiewicz@oeonline.com "Sex is good, but not as good as fresh sweet corn." -- Garrison Keillor From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com Sun Mar 6 14:05:49 EST 1994 Article: 27435 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com From: gkiewicz@oeonline.com (Pat & George Kiewicz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Frozen Spud Potatoes Message-ID: <47@oeonline.UUCP> Date: 3 Mar 94 15:14:25 GMT References: Sender: coconet@oeonline.UUCP Lines: 30 Status: O X-Status: aj459@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Daniel Dumych) writes: > > > Are spud potatoes, which were accidentally left in the garage this > winter and froze, dud potatoes? Should I compost them, or give them > a chance? > > Waiting for spring, > Daniel > -- > ---------------------- > Daniel M. Dumych > aj459@freenet.carleton.ca Every year I miss a few little spuds, and they survive in the frozen ground to sprout in the midst of the beans, etc. Have your frozen spuds thawed out? If they haven't turned to mush, they might still grow. If they are still somewhat solid, and you dump them into anything but a hot, active compost pile, you might find yourself growing lush potato vines where you don't expect them. -- //Pat Kiewicz\\ gkiewicz@oeonline.com "Sex is good, but not as good as fresh sweet corn." -- Garrison Keillor From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!maryannc Sun Mar 6 14:05:50 EST 1994 Article: 27436 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!csus.edu!netcom.com!maryannc From: maryannc@netcom.com (Mary Ann Campbell) Subject: Getting rid of oxalis Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Distribution: na Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 18:50:50 GMT Lines: 15 Status: O X-Status: The sign of spring in my yard is that oxalis threatens to suffocate every plant in my garden. I have tried to get rid of it for years; pulling it out doesn't work because the stems are so weak that they break, so the roots are there forever. The good news is that it goes away in the summer, but by then it has already done its damage. Plus, I just don't like looking at that greeny shade of yellow. I'm new to this group, so I apologize if the subject has been covered before. I did look at the FAQ topics and didn't see anything relevant; if I missed something, I'd be delighted to hear it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mary Ann Campbell maryannc@netcom.com Berkeley ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com Sun Mar 6 14:05:50 EST 1994 Article: 27437 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com From: gkiewicz@oeonline.com (Pat & George Kiewicz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Advise on lowering pH Message-ID: <48@oeonline.UUCP> Date: 4 Mar 94 17:39:25 GMT References: <1994Mar4.014254.15744@btree.brooktree.com> Sender: coconet@oeonline.UUCP Lines: 37 Status: O X-Status: markski@btree.brooktree.com (Mark Sankowski) writes: > > I recently purchased a soil test kit (pH-n-p-k). I checked my > pH, and the reading I got was 10! Does this sound right? If so, how much > of what do I need to add to get my pH down to 6.5 - 7.0? > The size of the area is approx 250 sq. ft. Also, can I add the stuff if > I already have plants in the ground (tomatoes, peas, onions, celery, > spinach and radishes) without shocking them? > I'm located in San Diego, Cal. > I should also add that this is a one year old garden which was mostly > clay and sand, but has been given plenty of compost, manure, peat moss > and topsoil to "liven it up" a bit. > Any and all advise would be appreciated. > -- > > UUCP: ...ucsd!btree!markski Before you rush off and do anything, look at your plants. Are they OK? I'm sure you are correct in your concern about trying for any rapid changes. Normally, the addition of peat moss has a mildily acidifying effect, and compost and other organic material are supposed to have a buffering effect on pH. I don't know what type of test you were using. Did you need to add water to your soil sample? Did you use distilled water? If you didn't, you might be measuring the pH of your water source. -- //Pat Kiewicz\\ gkiewicz@oeonline.com "Sex is good, but not as good as fresh sweet corn." -- Garrison Keillor From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com Sun Mar 6 14:05:51 EST 1994 Article: 27438 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com From: gkiewicz@oeonline.com (Pat & George Kiewicz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Sprouting Spuds Message-ID: <49@oeonline.UUCP> Date: 4 Mar 94 17:39:27 GMT References: <2l62kt$3eg@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Sender: coconet@oeonline.UUCP Lines: 29 Status: O X-Status: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) writes: > > I have read that it is not a good idea to save and replant your > own potatoes. Commercial potato starts are guaranteed virus free, > you risk picking up a virus if you re-use your own stock. It > may not be worth the money you save. > -- I remember reading an article in 'National Gardening' in which Mr. Ronniger (of Ronninger's Seed Potatoes) voices an opinion about the practice of saving your own seed potato. Despite his own commercial interests, he recommended that the average home gardener, so long as he has no disease problems, would do best by selecting and saving his own seed potatoes. By continually selecting you own seed potatoes, you would arrive with a strain better adapted to local conditions. (Of course, you should start the process off with certified spuds.) Do I save my own seed potatoes? Well, *ahem* we usually eat all the spuds I harvest long before spring arrives... -- //Pat Kiewicz\\ gkiewicz@oeonline.com "Sex is good, but not as good as fresh sweet corn." -- Garrison Keillor From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!demon!wordshop.demon.co.uk!Cooper Sun Mar 6 14:05:52 EST 1994 Article: 27439 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens From: Cooper@wordshop.demon.co.uk (Gary Cooper) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!doc.ic.ac.uk!uknet!demon!wordshop.demon.co.uk!Cooper Subject: Re: Heating Pad? References: <56yIfG9.ehkuhall7@delphi.com> Organization: Wordshop Reply-To: Cooper@wordshop.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: Demon Internet Simple News v1.27 Lines: 16 Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 20:35:40 +0000 Message-ID: <762899739snz@wordshop.demon.co.uk> Sender: usenet@demon.co.uk Status: O X-Status: In article <56yIfG9.ehkuhall7@delphi.com> ehkuhall7@delphi.com writes: > Although I have grown two successful vegetable gardens and spring bulbs > too, I have NEVER been able to start seeds successfully in doors. Still, I am > going to try again. My house is 55-62 during the day. Is this too cold. Do I > need a heating pad as well as a flat with a plastic lid? 55-62 really is too cold for most half-hardy annuals and many other seeds besides. As an alternative to a heating pad, had you thought of buying a small heated propagator, the type with a transparent plastic top and ventilation slots? If it isn't out of your price range, try to get one with an adjustable thermostat as the fixed temperature types can be too inflexible. Hope that helps, -- Gary Cooper From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!susanm Sun Mar 6 14:05:53 EST 1994 Article: 27440 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!susanm From: susanm@cup.hp.com (Susan Ezzell Murgia) Subject: Re: Natural Gardens Sender: news@cupnews0.cup.hp.com (News Admin) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 22:10:16 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: hpgsysus.cup.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 10 Status: O X-Status: > Does anyone have experience with a company called Natural Gardening Company? This is the company in San Anselmo CA, right? I received their catalog a couple weeks ago and ordered twelve seedlings (and some tanglefoot) today. I'm supposed to receive the plants the week of 3/20 - guess I'll know in a couple weeks how their quality is... :-) I can post the results then. - Susan Murgia Los Gatos CA zone 9 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!raven.alaska.edu!acad2.alaska.edu!lsmcs Sun Mar 6 14:05:54 EST 1994 Article: 27441 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!raven.alaska.edu!acad2.alaska.edu!lsmcs From: lsmcs@acad2.alaska.edu Subject: roses-fragrant & thornless Message-ID: <1994Mar5.124336.1@acad2.alaska.edu> Lines: 3 Sender: news@raven.alaska.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Alaska Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 16:43:36 GMT Status: O X-Status: Help please, If you know of roses that are both thornless and fragrant please let me know. Growing area is Oregon zone 6-7. A source as well as name(s) would be appreciated. We've tried Jackson-Perkins in Oregon. Thanks, mimi From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!wsm Sun Mar 6 14:05:55 EST 1994 Article: 27442 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!wsm From: wsm@mathcs.emory.edu (William Mahavier) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Blossom drop Date: 5 Mar 1994 22:29:56 GMT Organization: Emory University, Dept of Math and CS Lines: 26 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <2lb154$qml@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> References: <1994Mar1.230518.2653@uts.amdahl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cssun.mathcs.emory.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <1994Mar1.230518.2653@uts.amdahl.com> lalitha@uts.amdahl.com (Lalitha Krishnamurthy) writes: > >I have some tomatilloes, peas and tomateos in 10 gallon pots. > >Since I started them from seeds relatively early in the season >I have these plants having flowers. However many of the >flowers seem to drop off. Any reason why ? > >Am I over watering? >Do plants need bigger pots ? I have the same problem with cayenne and serrano peppers. I started them too early for Atlanta and have had to keep moving them to bigger pots. They are indoors, under a 4 foot fluorescent and are covered with blooms. The blooms wither and then the entire stem falls off. Any help will be appreciated. W. S. Mahavier wsm@mathcs.emory.edu ...!gatech!emory!wsm Emory University -- W. S. Mahavier | wsm@mathcs.emory.edu DOMAIN Emory University | {decvax,gatech}!emory!wsm UUCP Dept of Math and CS | wsm@emory BITNET Atlanta, Ga 30322 | Office phone: 404-727-7585 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Sun Mar 6 14:05:56 EST 1994 Article: 27443 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Plant propagation Date: 6 Mar 1994 01:45:32 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 6 Message-ID: <2lbcjs$kg7@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: Did you use a rooting hormone, (usually sold as a powder, "Rootone" is a common brand), on the cuttings befor putting them in water or damp sand? If that doesn't work, well some plants root well from cuttings and some don't. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Sun Mar 6 14:05:57 EST 1994 Article: 27444 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Are oak trees ugly in winter? Date: 6 Mar 1994 01:54:00 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2lbd3o$l0p@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: Oak trees aren't esthetic because they hand onto their leaves all winter? Shucks, to a true tree lover, every tree is beautiful. And certainly, for spring through late fall, oaks are one of the most attractive trees. I think it is interesting to have the contrast between bare branches, oak branches with leaves, and maybe a conifer or two. Also, you can watch the oaks and when they do lose their leaves, you know that the sap is really flowing and spring is almost here. Oaks probably provide a better windbreak than bare branch trees, and better shelter for birds, too. What's more, the leaves don't all come down DUMP, after one windstorm in fall and then you have to get out and rake them all up. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan Sun Mar 6 14:05:57 EST 1994 Article: 27445 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!jpnan From: jpnan@prairienet.org (Jean P Nance) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Advise on lowering pH Date: 6 Mar 1994 01:59:11 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 11 Message-ID: <2lbddf$l9b@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org Originator: jpnan@firefly.prairienet.org Status: O X-Status: Probably compost and manure will tend to lower PH. It is simpler to just add lots and lots of leaves. If you can get them, oak leaves are the best, but any leaves should do some good. If the person who started this thread wants to grow plants that thrive only at lower PH, aluminum sulphate added to the soil yearly, and all the leaves you can get, will keep soil acid but it is a constant battle, of course. Maybe better to find out what WANTS to grow at PH 10 and concentrate on raising that. -- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby Sun Mar 6 14:05:58 EST 1994 Article: 27446 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby From: Libby Goldstein Newsgroups: rec.gardens Date: 04 Mar 94 17:44 PST Subject: Re: Fall Fragrance? Message-ID: <1453300500@cdp> References: Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: You might also want to try crepe myrtles. Up here they begin blooming in late summer with a lovely honeylike scent. If cut back after bloom, they flower again in Sept and sometimes into Oct. Also the bark defoliates in patches and looks wonderful all winter...especially in winters like this with snow on the ground at all times. Up here is in Philadelphia. Libby From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby Sun Mar 6 14:05:59 EST 1994 Article: 27447 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby From: Libby Goldstein Newsgroups: rec.gardens Date: 04 Mar 94 17:24 PST Subject: Re: A Question about Rue Message-ID: <1453300498@cdp> References: <2l4ljl$def@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu> Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway Lines: 6 Status: O X-Status: There's no harm whatever in cutting it back. If you don't, it can and probably will get rangy and want to take over the universe. I usually wait til the weather moderates a little...here in zone 7 later this month...and cut it back to a lively looking green bud down on the stem, maybe 6" from ground level. Libby From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby Sun Mar 6 14:06:00 EST 1994 Article: 27448 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby From: Libby Goldstein Newsgroups: rec.gardens Date: 04 Mar 94 17:26 PST Subject: Re: Fungus and Seed Sprouting Message-ID: <1453300499@cdp> References: Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway Lines: 4 Status: O X-Status: I'd start over and leave out the rock wool. Try covering the seeds and potting mix with some milled sphagnum moss...moistened. Libby From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby Sun Mar 6 14:06:01 EST 1994 Article: 27449 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!usc!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!cdp!libby From: Libby Goldstein Newsgroups: rec.gardens Date: 04 Mar 94 17:20 PST Subject: Re: Questions Message-ID: <1453300497@cdp> References: <2l6bp9INNn2@dns1.nmsu.edu> Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: I suggest you look in the phone book for you local office of U of Md Cooperative Extension (Service). It will either be listed under the Univ or under the countyy They can tell you all of that stuff, and you've alrady paid for it. Probably, you can begin planting cool stuff like potatoes, peas spinach and lettuce "as soon as the soil is workable", assuming the snow ever melts and the soil ever does become workable again. I'd start my cabbages and other cole crops indoors now and my peppers and eggplants next week or so. You can wait a couple of weeks before you start your tomatoes. Most likely your can start planting those warm weather crops outdoors in early to mid-May. Libby From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!ceylon!ara13.gte.com!user Sun Mar 6 14:06:01 EST 1994 Article: 27450 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!news.byu.edu!news.mtholyoke.edu!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!ceylon!ara13.gte.com!user From: vrs0@gte.com (Vanessa Stern) Subject: How to plant perennial sweetpea? Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: news@gte.com (USENET News System) Organization: GTE Laboratories, Inc. Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 02:32:45 GMT Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: I gathered a bunch of seed pods last August from the perennial sweetpeas at my grandparent's house. The pods dried and I have a lot of little seeds that I hope will produce plants to cover an ugly fence that my awful back neighbor put up. I am in Massachusetts (Zone 5?). Should I try to start these seeds indoors and then transplant them outside or would it be OK to just put them in the ground once the danger of frost is over? Also, what would be the best thing to put on the fence for the plants to climb on that wouldn't look too conspicuous? I was thinking of nylon netting. -- Vanessa R. Stern vrs0@gte.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!mimbres.cs.unm.edu!nmt.edu!baervan.nmt.edu!martha Sun Mar 6 14:06:02 EST 1994 Article: 27451 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!mimbres.cs.unm.edu!nmt.edu!baervan.nmt.edu!martha From: martha@baervan.nmt.edu (Martha Cather) Subject: Re: Cats and Birdhouses Message-ID: <1994Mar4.181056.4750@nmt.edu> Sender: news@nmt.edu (News software) Nntp-Posting-Host: baervan Organization: PRRC-New Mexico Tech, Socorro NM References: <2kum3t$ms@scoville.wsrcc.com> <2l3vho$p6s@news.u.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 18:10:56 GMT Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: I didn't see the original post, but if you are worried about cats getting your birds, why don't you use a metal pole? or else try wrapping a good length of the wooden pole in chicken wire. This seems to deter some cats from climbing. Or you could put some sort of metal disk about two or three feet in diameter just below the birdhouse so the cat couldn't climb over or around the barrier. Most cats won't bother to climb up a tree to get at a birdhouse, it's just not worth the effort. It is easier to wait and let the babies fall out! I just wish I could train cats to catch only starlings and English sparrows, and leave the rest of the songbirds alone. Martha From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ftpbox!mothost!schbbs!NewsWatcher!user Sun Mar 6 14:06:03 EST 1994 Article: 27452 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ftpbox!mothost!schbbs!NewsWatcher!user From: epur01@email.mot.com (Don Burns) Subject: Re: moving pond fish Organization: MOTOROLA Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 22:44:59 GMT Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens References: <2lab5a$hhr@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> Sender: news@schbbs.mot.com (Net News) Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.2.38.52 Lines: 20 Status: O X-Status: In article <2lab5a$hhr@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca>, zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey) wrote: >........................ > does anyone have suggestions as to where i might keep the fish for a month? > how much water would 14 inches of fish need? Lance, I have a 7000 gallon pond with about 25 koi in my back yard and have wondered what I'd do in your situation. Our local pet shops keep 10 or more koi your size in 30 gallon tanks. Certainly you could do this for a month or so. But, I would think the _major_ problem would be associated with transporting the fish. Also suggest you post your question to another USENET group: REC.AQUARIA. There should be some experience on that net. -- Don Burns Plantation, Florida epur01@email.mot.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ftpbox!mothost!schbbs!NewsWatcher!user Sun Mar 6 14:06:04 EST 1994 Article: 27453 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!ftpbox!mothost!schbbs!NewsWatcher!user From: epur01@email.mot.com (Don Burns) Subject: Re: Getting rid of oxalis Organization: MOTOROLA Distribution: usa Date: Sat, 5 Mar 1994 22:49:52 GMT Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens References: Sender: news@schbbs.mot.com (Net News) Nntp-Posting-Host: 145.2.38.52 Lines: 13 Status: O X-Status: In article , maryannc@netcom.com (Mary Ann Campbell) wrote: > The sign of spring in my yard is that oxalis threatens to suffocate every > plant in my garden.................. Yep, I can relate to your grief. I have controlled oxalis in my Saint Augustine grass with atraphine (I think thta's how its spelled). But it never really goes away. -- Don Burns Plantation, Florida epur01@email.mot.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!news Sun Mar 6 14:06:05 EST 1994 Article: 27454 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!news From: kcarroll@u.washington.edu (Kris Carroll) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Signs of spring Date: 6 Mar 1994 04:27:01 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 2 Distribution: na Message-ID: <2lbm2l$eim@news.u.washington.edu> References: <2l7sfb$cq1@clarknet.clark.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: koko.pathology.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: Here in PNW the peepers (frogs, crickets etc) have started making a racket at night, the crocus are up, camelia are blooming. It's close all right. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ Sun Mar 6 14:06:06 EST 1994 Article: 27455 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ From: "John E. Snyder" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: How to get rid of voles damiging apple tries? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 05:24:13 -0500 Organization: Doctoral student, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 49 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <1994Mar4.194034.13034@leeds.ac.uk> Status: O X-Status: Excerpts from netnews.rec.gardens: 4-Mar-94 How to get rid of voles dam.. by R Dorsch@gps.leeds.ac.uk > From: phy3rd@gps.leeds.ac.uk (R Dorsch) > Subject: How to get rid of voles damiging apple tries? > Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 19:40:34 GMT > > Hi, > I have in my garden some young apple tries. It is difficult to bring them > up, because there are some voles in the garden, which are damaging the > roots of the trees regularly. I want to get rid of of these voles, without > the use of toxins or environmentally critical chemicals. I have tried > different mechanical trap without striking success. Does anybody know > some useful hints for this problem? > > I would appreciate any hints for information on this problem, available > on the internet or as printed paper. > > > -- > Rainer Dorsch > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - > | | > | internet: until March, 25th: | > | phy3rd@sun.leeds.ac.uk | > | after March, 25th: | > | rainer.dorsch@student.uni-ulm.de | > | phone: ++44-0532-458074 | > | snail mail: Clarendon Road, 3 Claremont Villas, LS2 9NY Leeds, Great Britain| > | | Here's a way to tie two threads together: Maybe get a cat or dog (cat especially). John snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ Sun Mar 6 14:06:07 EST 1994 Article: 27456 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!js0n+ From: "John E. Snyder" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 05:36:20 -0500 Organization: Doctoral student, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 61 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po3.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <2l92t2$ocp@eis.calstate.edu> Status: O X-Status: Excerpts from netnews.rec.gardens: 4-Mar-94 Re: Old Oranges?? by Bruce A. Moon@eis.calsta > From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon) > Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? > Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:47:30 -0800 > > In December, the Northern California chapters of the California > Rare Fruit Growers met at Lindcove, the University of California's > Central Valley citrus research facility. We tasted Mandarins, Navels, > grapefruits and other in season fruit as well as listening to a lecture > on Mandarins grown in Spain being considered for growth in California > (Louise travels the world to find new varieties for growth in > California. From her lecture, the packing industry's concerns center > around seediness and time of ripening. Consumers have demonstrated a > reluctance to buy fruit with seeds (Some of my favorites have seeds, but > I don't make marketing decisions). Ripening is important to packing > houses because they don't want to add extra lines. They are looking for > fruit that will ripen during off times so they can use unused capacity. > They alos like fruit that ripens when the prices are high. > Other concerns are such factors as retaining stems and uniform size. > They don't want stems staying on that poke holes in other fruit. They > also want a uniform size since they sell fruit by the count box -and want > to minimize sorting. > I don't think there is any intentional conspiracy to sell lousy tasting > > oranges. given the restraints of the industry, I think growers will sell > what their market will buy. What makes it to the local produce market may > not necessarily be the best that is out there. I spoke with a grower of > pears, plums and apples. He ships to specialty markets in Boston and to > Japan, even though he lives here in the Sierra Foothills. The same is > true in citrus; restaurants, specialty markets, fruit of the month clubs, > etc. provide a better return for the farmer who is trying to mzximize his > return. > - Bruce Moon > Rio Linda, CA With respect to oranges and specialty markets: An unusual thing happened in PA this year that I do not remember happening other years. Usually just before Christmas, a big supply of high-quality, inexpensive navel oranges hits out stores, and the supply continues for weeks. This year, they were late starting, and there was only one week of 8 for $1 navel oranges. The price quickly went up to 8 for $2, and has stayed ever since. The fruit has not been the greatest of quality, either. I have to pick through the bins to find ones that do not have big soft flat spots (bruises?). What happened? Was there a big freeze? Has it been a bad growing year? Or is the price structure such that there is more profit to be earned by shipping them to Asia? Anybody know? John snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!darwin.sura.net!news.cua.edu!cua.edu!abraham Sun Mar 6 14:06:08 EST 1994 Article: 27457 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!darwin.sura.net!news.cua.edu!cua.edu!abraham From: abraham@cua.edu Subject: Tomato varieties Message-ID: <1994Mar6.001116.1@cua.edu> Lines: 10 Sender: news@news.cua.edu (Guest Account) Organization: The Catholic University of America Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 05:11:16 GMT Status: O X-Status: I'm interested in specific varieties of tomatos to plant this spring. Our herb garden (very important to us) has room for about 4 plants, distributed as 1 cherry, 1 plum, and two eating tomatos. We've planted several over the years, but haven't found that truly special variety yet. Suggestions would be very welcome! Kent Abraham Gardening in Southern Maryland From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!news.sprintlink.net!connected.com!beauty!rwing!eskimo!tinne Sun Mar 6 14:06:08 EST 1994 Article: 27458 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!news.sprintlink.net!connected.com!beauty!rwing!eskimo!tinne From: tinne@eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Zoysia Grass Lawn ??? Message-ID: Date: 5 Mar 94 11:30:57 GMT References: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 10 Status: O X-Status: Hi. Zoysia needs a constant source of water. Believe it or not, the Rainy Pacific Northwest has a mini drought every year from mid july to Early to late september. Zoysia Plugs wither and die in those conditions, not spread. WA attorney General took one particular mail order advertiser to court for failing to disclose these facts to WA gardeners that bought the stuff, and refused to refund monies spent when the plugs failed. Rather than warn people with drought periods not to buy them, the company simply reduces it's liability by refusing to sell where they may be barred from doing business completely if they defraud customers any more. Tinne@eskimo.com ;-) :-D Laughter Heals From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!news.sprintlink.net!connected.com!beauty!rwing!eskimo!tinne Sun Mar 6 14:06:09 EST 1994 Article: 27459 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!demon!news.sprintlink.net!connected.com!beauty!rwing!eskimo!tinne From: tinne@eskimo.com (Susan Profit) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: MOLES! Message-ID: Date: 5 Mar 94 11:35:47 GMT References: Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever Lines: 4 Status: O X-Status: Hi. Moles do eat the roots of a few plants, such as lilies. Most damage attributed to moles, however, is die to other rodents and voles, and etc. that use the mole runs and greedily chow down on what they find. Tinne@eskimo.com ;-) :-D Laughter Heals From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!samba.oit.unc.edu!not-for-mail Sun Mar 6 14:06:10 EST 1994 Article: 27460 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!samba.oit.unc.edu!not-for-mail From: Dale.Hurliman@launchpad.unc.edu (dale hurliman) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: How to get rid of voles damiging apple tries? Date: 6 Mar 1994 16:31:19 GMT Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Experimental Bulletin Board Service. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <2ld0gn$fts@samba.oit.unc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lambada.oit.unc.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , John E. Snyder wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.rec.gardens: 4-Mar-94 How to get rid of voles >dam.. by R Dorsch@gps.leeds.ac.uk >> From: phy3rd@gps.leeds.ac.uk (R Dorsch) >> Subject: How to get rid of voles damiging apple tries? >> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 19:40:34 GMT >> >> Hi, >> I have in my garden some young apple tries. It is difficult to bring them >> up, because there are some voles in the garden, which are damaging the >> roots of the trees regularly. I want to get rid of of these voles, without >> the use of toxins or environmentally critical chemicals. I have tried >> different mechanical trap without striking success. Does anybody know >> some useful hints for this problem? >> >> I would appreciate any hints for information on this problem, available >> on the internet or as printed paper. >> >> >> -- >> Rainer Dorsch >> >> As with most wildlife a key to vole populations is not so much food as habitat or cover. You can reduce vole populations in the orchard by reducing the cover: keep the orchard floor mowed short; the more it resembles a putting green the fewer voles you will have. Another trick which I use is when I plant young trees I remove the topsoil within about a two foot radius around the base of the tree (or in a two foot strip down the center of the tree row) and fill the space with crushed limestone (usually 2-B or about the size one might use in making concrete). You'll not reduce the vole population to zero, but you will reduce it. -- ********************************************************************** * The above does not represent OIT, UNC-CH, laUNChpad, or its other users. * ********************************************************************** From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!wvnvm!u430d Sun Mar 6 14:06:10 EST 1994 Article: 27461 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!psuvm!wvnvm!u430d Date: Sun, 6 Mar 1994 08:51:03 EST From: Message-ID: <94065.085103U430D@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: nurseries in N WV? Lines: 6 Status: O X-Status: Does anyone know of any nurseries in Northern West Virginia or Pittsburgh PA area with large selections of plants? I am especially looking for Daphne 'Carol Mackie', any type of Rodgersia, and a wide selection of Hosta. I don't want to go mail-order route, but rather want to buy from my area the size of plants available from nurseries. Gary Ganser From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Sun Mar 6 14:06:12 EST 1994 Article: 27462 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: MOLES! Date: 6 Mar 1994 17:01:03 GMT Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2ld28f$eg5@apollo.it.luc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Susan Profit (tinne@eskimo.com) wrote: : Hi. Moles do eat the roots of a few plants, such as lilies. Most damage : attributed to moles, however, is die to other rodents and voles, and : etc. that use the mole runs and greedily chow down on what they find. I missed the lecture on garden pests in our Master Gardener course, and consequently missed a question on our test, namely "are voles a problem in urban gardens?" (poorly worded, typical Cooperative Extension Service question). Anyway, *are* they a "problem"? I had one as a pet once in my Habitrail mouse colony, and it was delightful. I assume they eat whatever mice do in nature, so "problem" is pretty much a matter of opinion. Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!lorgler Sun Mar 6 14:06:13 EST 1994 Article: 27463 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!lorgler From: lorgler@iastate.edu (Lisa L Nunamaker) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Are oak trees ugly in winter? Date: 6 Mar 1994 17:58:43 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa (USA) Lines: 8 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ld5kj$gu0@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: du139-205.cc.iastate.edu Keywords: oak tree Originator: lorgler@du139-205.cc.iastate.edu Status: O X-Status: Oaks are very picturesque in the winter - if you want character! I feel they have a strong beauty to them. The Pin Oak, as you have mentioned, is one oak that keeps most of its leaves in the winter. You have one of many special oaks. -- Lisa L Nunamaker monalisa@iastate.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!rand.org!rodger Mon Mar 7 23:39:20 EST 1994 Article: 27121 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!rand.org!rodger From: rodger@didabal.rand.org (Rodger Madison) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Old Oranges?? Date: 28 Feb 1994 05:02:56 GMT Organization: RAND Corporation Lines: 12 Message-ID: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: didabal.rand.org X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: I recently got some navel oranges from a tree in my father in laws back yard. They are by far the best I've ever had, thin skinned, juicy and delicious. The house was part of a development on an old orchard and the tree was left from that orchard. Did oranges suffer the same fate as tomatoes at the hands of agribusiness breeders? The navel oranges I remember from my youth were nothing like the corkballs I get in the supermarket today. Are there still "old" oranges to be had, it you wanted to plant a tree? Thanks, Rodger From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey Mon Mar 7 23:39:45 EST 1994 Article: 27144 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> Date: 28 Feb 1994 18:26:29 UTC Lines: 18 Status: O X-Status: In article <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> rodger@didabal.rand.org (Rodger Madison) writes: >I recently got some navel oranges from a tree in my father in laws back >yard. They are by far the best I've ever had, thin skinned, juicy and >delicious. The house was part of a development on an old orchard and the >tree was left from that orchard. Did oranges suffer the same fate as >tomatoes at the hands of agribusiness breeders? The navel oranges I >remember from my youth were nothing like the corkballs I get in the >supermarket today. Are there still "old" oranges to be had, it you wanted >to plant a tree? Are you sure they weren't Valencias? In any case, the longer they are left on the tree, the riper they get. Obviously a grower is not going to let them hang on the tree for long - lost money. Other than that, the two primary oranges, Navel (December) and Valencia (February - Juice), are the same as they've always been. It's just a question of how long you can stand to leave them on the tree - the best of course are the ones that fall when you lightly shake the tree. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rand.org!Rand.ORG!Rodger_Madison Mon Mar 7 23:40:05 EST 1994 Article: 27154 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!rand.org!Rand.ORG!Rodger_Madison From: Rodger_Madison@Rand.ORG (Rodger Madison) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Date: 28 Feb 1994 20:44:39 GMT Organization: RAND Corporation Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ktl3n$8is@rand.org> References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: didabal.rand.org Status: O X-Status: They're navels (navel at one end, no seeds). I would believe that the difference is in letting the fruit tree ripen. The main reason I thought these might be of a different variety is the thickness of the skin. The navels I get in the store a very thick skinned, 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, which is a characteristic that would be desireable in oranges that were to be shipped. My father in laws oranges are very thin skinned. Rodger In article , pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) writes: |> In article <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> |> rodger@didabal.rand.org (Rodger Madison) writes: |> >I recently got some navel oranges from a tree in my father in laws back |> >yard. They are by far the best I've ever had, thin skinned, juicy and |> >delicious. The house was part of a development on an old orchard and the |> >tree was left from that orchard. Did oranges suffer the same fate as |> >tomatoes at the hands of agribusiness breeders? The navel oranges I |> >remember from my youth were nothing like the corkballs I get in the |> >supermarket today. Are there still "old" oranges to be had, it you wanted |> >to plant a tree? |> |> Are you sure they weren't Valencias? In any case, the longer they are |> left on the tree, the riper they get. Obviously a grower is not going to |> let them hang on the tree for long - lost money. Other than that, the |> two primary oranges, Navel (December) and Valencia (February - Juice), |> are the same as they've always been. It's just a question of how long |> you can stand to leave them on the tree - the best of course are the |> ones that fall when you lightly shake the tree. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey Mon Mar 7 23:41:11 EST 1994 Article: 27215 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> <2ktl3n$8is@rand.org> Date: 1 Mar 1994 21:34:14 UTC Lines: 66 Status: O X-Status: In article <2ktl3n$8is@rand.org> Rodger_Madison@Rand.ORG (Rodger Madison) writes: >They're navels (navel at one end, no seeds). Sometimes you will get one or two seeds. But the navel is a give-away. >I would believe that the >difference is in letting the fruit tree ripen. The main reason I thought >these might be of a different variety is the thickness of the skin. The >navels I get in the store a very thick skinned, 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick, which >is a characteristic that would be desireable in oranges that were to be >shipped. My father in laws oranges are very thin skinned. Definitely, thick skin is preferable for commercial oranges not juiced. And the skin does thin as the fruit matures on the tree and also varies with climate. It is possible that you have a Navel orange other than the standard Washington, though I think unlikely. Tree ripened fruit are always much better, with only a few exceptions like pears, avocados, bananas. You might be able to trace back through local records to find what the original grower put in. It is possible that he selected a variety and grafted all his trees to it and it is possible that you have a mutation (bud sport). In any case, here is some info from Cornucopia, Stephen Facciola, Kampong Publications, Vista, CA, 1990, ISBN:0-9628087-0-9: Navel Oranges: Atwood: deep orange red, earlier than Wash., bud sport of Wash. from Lemon Cove, CA by Frank Atwood. 1945 Cluster Navel: medium-sized, similar to Valencia, variable, Jan., dwarf tree, bud sport of Wash. from UC Riverside Earli Beck: very early, Valencia type. Fisher: very early, high sugar/acid ratio, most common cultivar in Kern County, CA Frost Washington: nucellar budline of Wash., widely planted in CA, AZ, Morocco. from UC Riverside by H.B. Frost. Gillete: large, very early (10 days prior to Wash.), bud sport of Wash., from Hemet, CA by A.F. Gillette. 1940 Lane Late: from Australia, late. Holds on tree as late as June (N. Hemis.) Leng: very early, limb sport of Wash. at Irymple, N. S. Wales, Australia. Newhall: earlier than Wash., limb sport from Duarte, CA Robertson: virtually indistinguishable from Wash. except for medium-large size, slightly lower quality, and earlier maturity. Precocious. Bud sport of Wash., from Redlands, CA by Roy Robertson, 1925 Skaggs Bonanza: early, prococious, smaller than Wash., bud sport of Wash. from Strathmore, CA by Everett Skaggs, 1964. Summernavel: large, smooth rind easily separates from flesh, late. bud sport of Wash. discovered about 1934 in Riverside, CA by John Albert Workman. Thomson: very early, holds on tree poorly, limb sport of Wash., from Duarte, CA, 1891 Washington: fruit holds well but processes poorly, orig. perhaps as a mutant in Bahia, Brazil before 1820. The most popular orange in the world for eating out-of-hand. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!world!hrick Mon Mar 7 23:42:02 EST 1994 Article: 27172 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!world!hrick From: hrick@world.std.com (Rick Harrison) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 1994 01:16:12 GMT Lines: 30 Status: O X-Status: In article pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) writes: >In article <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> >rodger@didabal.rand.org (Rodger Madison) writes: >>tree was left from that orchard. Did oranges suffer the same fate as >>tomatoes at the hands of agribusiness breeders? The navel oranges I >>remember from my youth were nothing like the corkballs I get in the >>supermarket today. Are there still "old" oranges to be had, it you wanted >>to plant a tree? > >let them hang on the tree for long - lost money. Other than that, the >two primary oranges, Navel (December) and Valencia (February - Juice), >are the same as they've always been. It's just a question of how long >you can stand to leave them on the tree - the best of course are the >ones that fall when you lightly shake the tree. There are many varieties of oranges. Diller, Hamlin, Parson Brown, Trovita, the various navel oranges, the various "blood" oranges.... each variety has a slightly different flavor, shape, color, size etc. Some are more suited to home orchards than large-scale commercial production. I keep a list of tangerine varieties. Clearly, characteristics like color, ability to withstand rough handling, and resistance to disease or the most important factors being considered by modern citrus breeders. Flavor is secondary, altho when it is mentioned, it is clear that the breeders think people want an insipidly sweet fruit. In citrus, as with tomatoes, the best varieties (for flavor) only survive in home orchards/gardens, and in groves owned by connosieurs. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey Mon Mar 7 23:42:25 EST 1994 Article: 27282 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> Date: 2 Mar 1994 18:59:59 UTC Lines: 34 Status: O X-Status: In article hrick@world.std.com (Rick Harrison) writes: >There are many varieties of oranges. Diller, Hamlin, Parson Brown, >Trovita, the various navel oranges, the various "blood" oranges.... >each variety has a slightly different flavor, shape, color, size etc. >Some are more suited to home orchards than large-scale commercial >production. Quite true. I didn't mean to slight the other oranges. >I keep a list of tangerine varieties. Clearly, characteristics like >color, ability to withstand rough handling, and resistance to disease >or the most important factors being considered by modern citrus >breeders. Flavor is secondary, altho when it is mentioned, it is >clear that the breeders think people want an insipidly sweet fruit. Flavor is primary for juice oranges. High sugar content is good for 100% natural juice - since as you note most people prefer sweetness. But, for fruit mixes, sugar can be added - generally with grape juice which fools many people into thinking no sugar has been added when in reality grape juice can be very high in sugar. >In citrus, as with tomatoes, the best varieties (for flavor) only >survive in home orchards/gardens, and in groves owned by connosieurs. I don't think that's the case with Navel and Valencia, however, the longer the fruit is left on the tree the better the flavor and for commercial operations to leave fruit on the tree is generally a money losing operation. Generally, the earlier in the season that a product can be brought to market, the higher the return. Even if the early product is not as good as the later product. The market is fickle - many people don't even buy fresh anymore, processed food has the higher volume. Processed food can be produced with consistency (the MickyD phenomenon) - natural or whole foods are just naturally variable. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!ruacad!dlawrenc Mon Mar 7 23:42:48 EST 1994 Article: 27416 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!s850.mwc.edu!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!ruacad!dlawrenc From: dlawrenc@mathstat.ms.runet.edu (Don Lawrence) Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Message-ID: Organization: Radford University X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2krtu0$9u4@rand.org> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 1994 20:46:51 GMT Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: An interesting book on Oranges (history, varities,e etc.) is Oranges by John McPhee. "More than you ever wanted to know" told in McPhee's charming style. -- ******************************************************** * Jenny & Don Lawrence * It's a damn poor mind that * * 101 Monroe Street * can only think of one way * * Radford, VA 24141 * to spell a word. * From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail Mon Mar 7 23:44:03 EST 1994 Article: 27211 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Date: 1 Mar 1994 14:02:58 -0800 Organization: California Technology Project of The Calif State Univ Lines: 11 Message-ID: <2l0e2i$9d2@eis.calstate.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: eis.calstate.edu Status: O X-Status: The truth lies in the middle. There are many varieties of oranges and tree-ripened ones are best, no matter what the variety. Packinghouses are concerned with a steady supply of fruit. As soon as the sugar/acid ration is acceptable, a farmer will market his crop. Notice the time the fruit ripens-- when the trees are most susceptible to freeze. If you gamble for more sugar, you may lose everything. Nevertheless, I believer fruit is harvested in a steady stream. I wouldn't be surprised to find that prime fruit is exported to Asia where prime produce is worth a prime price. -- Bruce Moon Rio Linda, CA From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail Mon Mar 7 23:44:07 EST 1994 Article: 27420 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Old Oranges?? Date: 4 Mar 1994 20:47:30 -0800 Organization: California Technology Project of The Calif State Univ Lines: 28 Message-ID: <2l92t2$ocp@eis.calstate.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: eis.calstate.edu Status: O X-Status: In December, the Northern California chapters of the California Rare Fruit Growers met at Lindcove, the University of California's Central Valley citrus research facility. We tasted Mandarins, Navels, grapefruits and other in season fruit as well as listening to a lecture on Mandarins grown in Spain being considered for growth in California (Louise travels the world to find new varieties for growth in California. From her lecture, the packing industry's concerns center around seediness and time of ripening. Consumers have demonstrated a reluctance to buy fruit with seeds (Some of my favorites have seeds, but I don't make marketing decisions). Ripening is important to packing houses because they don't want to add extra lines. They are looking for fruit that will ripen during off times so they can use unused capacity. They alos like fruit that ripens when the prices are high. Other concerns are such factors as retaining stems and uniform size. They don't want stems staying on that poke holes in other fruit. They also want a uniform size since they sell fruit by the count box -and want to minimize sorting. I don't think there is any intentional conspiracy to sell lousy tasting oranges. given the restraints of the industry, I think growers will sell what their market will buy. What makes it to the local produce market may not necessarily be the best that is out there. I spoke with a grower of pears, plums and apples. He ships to specialty markets in Boston and to Japan, even though he lives here in the Sierra Foothills. The same is true in citrus; restaurants, specialty markets, fruit of the month clubs, etc. provide a better return for the farmer who is trying to mzximize his return. - Bruce Moon Rio Linda, CA From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com Mon Mar 7 23:44:44 EST 1994 Article: 27434 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!kaiwan.com!wetware!spunky.RedBrick.COM!psinntp!psinntp!iat.holonet.net!oeonline!oeonline.com From: gkiewicz@oeonline.com (Pat & George Kiewicz) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: vermiculture Message-ID: <46@oeonline.UUCP> Date: 3 Mar 94 15:14:23 GMT References: <9402222303.AA29709@im8> <2l3d6u$scq@panix.com> Sender: coconet@oeonline.UUCP Lines: 54 Status: O X-Status: [various people ask about sources of worms for vermiculture] > Speaking without much knowledge of the subject, I note that on page 38 of > the Henry Field's Seed & Nursery Co. 1994 Catalogue, there is an offering > of Red Hybrid Worms. The price is $19.95 for a pack of 500 ($18.95 for 2 > or more) or $43.95 for a pack of 2000 ($41.85 for 2 or more). I do not > know if these are the worms that you seek; they are advertised as "The > natural way to aerate your garden soil!" > > Henry Field's Seed & Nursery Co. > 415 North Burnett > Shenandoah, Iowa 51602 > > Harvey > > -- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Harvey Fishman | There is no greater failure than > fishman@panix.com | that of making an enemy. > 718-258-7276 | > > > A couple of other sources I can mention: Gardener's Supply 128 Intervale Rd. Burlington VT 05401 TEL 1-800-444-6417 'Red Wiggler's' item #2-232 2 pounds $24.95 + S/H This is the company which supplied MY worms. They are shipped to you directly from the 'grower'. 2# should be 2,000+ worms. The worms were young and thus easily adjusted to their new home after shipment. My husband ordered an entire kit (worms, bin, and Ms. Appelhof's book) as a birthday present for me -- and it was just what I wanted!!! Redworms can also be bought through Gardens Alive! (500/$19.95 1,000/$27.95 + S/H) Henry Fields beats them on the S/H charges. I've also read that worms can be purchased from Ms. Appelhof's Flowerfield Enterprise, but I have no idea of the going rate. TEL (616)327-0108. Hope this information proves useful. I *love* my worm-bin. -- //Pat Kiewicz\\ gkiewicz@oeonline.com "Sex is good, but not as good as fresh sweet corn." -- Garrison Keillor From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd Mon Mar 7 23:46:55 EST 1994 Article: 27498 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!djd From: djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) Subject: Re: Natural Salad Plants. Message-ID: Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com Organization: AT&T References: Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 16:45:46 GMT Lines: 28 Status: O X-Status: >I would like to grow natural salad plants like might be found in the wild. >I'm of the opinion that they have more nutrients than inbred varieties. >Any pointers? I don't know that wild greens would have more nutrients, but I believe they would have more of the natural chemicals that make them bitter and unattractive to both man and insect. I recall in "Breeding Your Own Garden Vegetables" (I think that's the title) the author said that often when you find one plant in your garden that no insect will touch, you discover it is not very palatable, perhaps having reverted to some pre-domesticated gene. I think the best way to enjoy wild greens is to pick them really early in the spring, before they get bitter. (Other solutions: blanching and boiling in several changes of water.) There are many wild greens to pick from in the spring. My all-time favorite is dandelion greens--with a dressing made from hot vinegar, sugar, and some bacon drippings. In my opionion, this is a gourmet dish. (I have made this, but don't have a recipe handy--maybe someone can post one.) Another spring green I have tried is nettles, which is supposed to taste like spinach. In my opinion, it was okay, but nothing to get excited about-- but then, a dish that aspires to spinach is not likely to win prizes. But maybe someone has a recipe better than my simple "boil and eat". Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!karenp Mon Mar 7 23:49:01 EST 1994 Article: 27529 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!karenp From: karenp@sybase.com (Karen Paulsell) Subject: Lead, gardens, kids and veggies Message-ID: Sender: usenet@sybase.com Organization: Sybase, Inc. Date: Mon, 7 Mar 1994 20:35:13 GMT Lines: 44 Status: O X-Status: I'm working to start a community garden in my neighborhood. Two local grade schools and a Teen Center are located nearby, and want to participate in the gardens. We've sent of soil samples for a soil test, and we're anxiously awaiting the results, especially the lead levels! Right now, the lots (which had houses on them, oh, 20 years ago) belong to the City of Oakland. If we're going to garden on them, they'll probably get transferred to Parks Department control. The Oakland Parks Department has a huge, expensive hassle with a playground that was built on a contaminated site. They don't want to assume control of another contaminated site. And I wouldn't want to garden in one, either, or expose kids to such a site. Oakland kids have got enough problems. I know very, very little about lead, acceptable levels, and lead and plants. I'd really like some pointers to studies, etc. For example, one person says "lead is not taken up by plants", while another says "some leafy vegetables that contain a lot of minerals can take up lead from the soil". What's the latest info on lead in gardens? I saved this from Jim McNelly (about 6 weeks ago): > Question 1: > > I live in an area of higher than average lead levels due > to paint from old houses under renovation (and petrol > emissions I guess) > > Is lead in the soil taken up by plants (herbs veges etc)? > > What do you mean by higher than average? 100 PPM, 300 PPM, 1000 PPM? > I would start being concerned around 250 PPM > > Lead is not uptaken by plants. It is, however, associated with > root crops such as potatoes and carrots, since soil sticks to the skins. > > Children eating dirt, called the "pica" effect, is the most serious > concern. Lead is also readily absorbed through the skin and dust and > dirt can lead to lead poisoning. > > Mr Compost~~~ From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!jabba.ess.harris.com!news.ess.harris.com!SU1BN!mnoeske Mon Mar 14 15:53:50 EST 1994 Article: 27586 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!jabba.ess.harris.com!news.ess.harris.com!SU1BN!mnoeske From: mnoeske@SU1BN.ess.harris.com (Mike Noeske x4143) Subject: Re: Bat houses Message-ID: Sender: news@news.ess.harris.com (News account) Nntp-Posting-Host: su1bn.ess.harris.com Organization: Harris Corporation GCSD References: <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 11:33:50 GMT Lines: 30 Status: O X-Status: In article <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, dc770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gary L. Popa) writes: |> |> I'd like to build a bat house, but got very little info from the |> library or bookstores. Can anyone describe one made from wood? |> I've read that the major differences between bird houses and bat |> houses are that the bat house has a narrow slit near the floor, |> instead of a hole (as in a bird house). How wide should this |> slit be? Will a bat mind if i used cedar? I heard/read that |> bats are beneficial to gardens and they help keep mosquito |> population down. |> -- The Spring 1994 catalog from "Plow and Hearth" arrived yesterday and it has a book called "The Bat House Builders Handbook" by Merlin D. Tuttle for $5.95. Their discription "the Bat House Builders Handbook provides the latest research on how to attract bats and contains plans for building the most 'user-friendly' houses. 36pp., photos." They also sell assembled houses in two sizes and a do-it yourself kit in one size. The address: Plow & Hearth PO BOX 830 ORANGE, VA 22960-0492 Customer Assistance 1-800-866-6072 (9 AM to 5 PM EST, Monday_Saturday) Hope it Helps......Mike Noeske From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!an216 Mon Mar 14 15:54:15 EST 1994 Article: 27666 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!an216 From: an216@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Georgen Coyle) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Bat House Plans Date: 9 Mar 1994 16:22:26 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA) Lines: 9 Message-ID: <2lkt42$cm8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: Wouldn't it be better to buy the book directly from Bat Conservation Int.? The profits would go to protecting bats instead of to Plough & Hearth. -- Georgen Coyle * If thou wouldst into the infinite stride, Wooster, Ohio * Explore the finite on every side. * -- Goethe From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!guardian.up.edu!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!danniw Mon Mar 14 15:57:45 EST 1994 Article: 27602 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!guardian.up.edu!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!danniw From: danniw@sequent.com (Daniella Wolfe) Subject: Re: Bat houses Message-ID: <1994Mar8.231556.28977@sequent.com> Sender: usenet@sequent.com (usenet ) Nntp-Posting-Host: family.sequent.com Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. References: <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 23:15:56 GMT Lines: 34 Status: O X-Status: dc770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gary L. Popa) writes: >I'd like to build a bat house, but got very little info from the >library or bookstores. Can anyone describe one made from wood? >I've read that the major differences between bird houses and bat >houses are that the bat house has a narrow slit near the floor, >instead of a hole (as in a bird house). How wide should this >slit be? Will a bat mind if i used cedar? I heard/read that >bats are beneficial to gardens and they help keep mosquito >population down. ----- Although my knowledge is also limited on this subject, I do know that a bat house is taller, wider across and not as deep as a bird house. The bottom is left entirely open and inside sometimes there are small perch-type things inserted. What I do know for certain, is that you'll have the best luck attracting bats if you attach your bathouse on the south side of your house at least 15-20 ft. from ground level. Although you see the houses hung often on fir and pine trees, bats don't like shade. They like it where it's warm, hence the attraction to attics in houses! Do you have a wild bird specialty store in your neighborhood? Here in Portland, we have lots of "Backyard Bird Shops". It has been here that I have found lots of info. on bats. The one I go to even has 2-3 different kinds of already built bat houses on display. (Already built, they run about $25, so it would be definitely cheaper to build your own!) Good luck! Danni From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller Mon Mar 14 15:58:40 EST 1994 Article: 27640 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller From: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu (Dick and Jill Miller) Message-ID: <9403091753.AA18301@im8> Subject: Re: Bat houses Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:53 EST X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA16334; Wed, 9 Mar 94 09:56:36 -0800 X-Received: from IM.LCS.MIT.EDU by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/13Jan94) id AA07411; Wed, 9 Mar 94 09:51:34 -0800 X-Received: from im8 (IM8.LCS.MIT.EDU) by im (4.1/TOC-1.1S) id AA26799; Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:58 EST X-Received: by im8 (4.1/TOC-1.1C) id AA18301; Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:53 EST X-To: rec.gardens.usenet Lines: 54 Status: O X-Status: In article: <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dc770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gary L. Popa) asked: >I'd like to build a bat house, but got very little info from the >library or bookstores. Can anyone describe one made from wood? >I've read that the major differences between bird houses and bat >houses are that the bat house has a narrow slit near the floor, >instead of a hole (as in a bird house). In some designs, that's the main external difference. But the major differences are internal. A bathouse has lots of 'walls' to make lots of slit-shaped 'rooms' each just the size for a bat to hide in. (Remember how bats like to hide behind shutters?) Most bat houses have several different spacings of these 'walls' so that different species of bats can be accomodated in one bat house. (Only one kind at a time usually inhabits a house.) It helps if the house has an almost sealed, sun-warmed 'attic nursery' which also helps to warm and stabilize the temperature in lower area of the house. |\ | \ | \ <-roof may be less steep | \ small | attic \ opening | \ to get->| --------| into | | | | | | attic | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | <- no floor is needed ^ various-width slits (I've only shown a couple) > How wide should this slit be? Slits should be (typical) 3/4", 1" and 1-1/4" wide. >Will a bat mind if i used cedar? Bats have sensitive noses and would prefer weathered pine or another less aromatic wood. They are purported to prefer locations which already smell of bats. Bat guano, anyone? For lots more information write to: Bat Conservation International P.O. Box 162603 Austin, TX 78716-2603 --Jill (who intends lure more bats and fewer mosquitos to her own garden) A. Richard & Jill A. Miller | MILLER MICROCOMPUTER SERVICES | InterNet: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu | 61 Lake Shore Road | Voice: 508/653-6136, 9am-9pm -0500(EST)| Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA | MMSFORTH: The cure for the common code.| 42 18'00.79" N, 71 22'27.68" W| From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!stngiam Mon Mar 14 15:59:09 EST 1994 Article: 27604 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!stngiam From: stngiam@athena.mit.edu (Shih-Tung Ngiam) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Lead, gardens, kids and veggies Date: 9 Mar 1994 02:44:56 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vongole.mit.edu In-reply-to: karenp@sybase.com's message of Mon, 7 Mar 1994 20:35:13 GMT Status: O X-Status: A good book on the subject of starting a community garden is: TITLE: A handbook of community gardening / by Boston Urban Gardeners; edited by Susan Naimark. IMPRINT: New York : Scribner, c1982. PHYSICAL FEATURES: xi, 180 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. NOTES: Bibliography: p. 175-176. * Includes index. OTHER AUTHORS, ETC: Naimark, Susan. * Boston Urban Gardeners. OTHER TITLES: Community gardening. SUBJECTS: Community gardens. * Gardening. LC CARD: 81-23302 ISBN: 0684174669 : The book briefly discusses soil contamination, and the Agricultural Extension Service in your area (probably listed under county govt in the white pages) should have other information. Did you send the soil to be analyzed by the Extension Service, or to a private lab for lead analysis only? Shih Tung Chem E Best l'il Tech School on the Charles From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!stngiam Mon Mar 14 16:00:13 EST 1994 Article: 27604 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!stngiam From: stngiam@athena.mit.edu (Shih-Tung Ngiam) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Lead, gardens, kids and veggies Date: 9 Mar 1994 02:44:56 GMT Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: vongole.mit.edu In-reply-to: karenp@sybase.com's message of Mon, 7 Mar 1994 20:35:13 GMT Status: O X-Status: A good book on the subject of starting a community garden is: TITLE: A handbook of community gardening / by Boston Urban Gardeners; edited by Susan Naimark. IMPRINT: New York : Scribner, c1982. PHYSICAL FEATURES: xi, 180 p. : ill. ; 24 cm. NOTES: Bibliography: p. 175-176. * Includes index. OTHER AUTHORS, ETC: Naimark, Susan. * Boston Urban Gardeners. OTHER TITLES: Community gardening. SUBJECTS: Community gardens. * Gardening. LC CARD: 81-23302 ISBN: 0684174669 : The book briefly discusses soil contamination, and the Agricultural Extension Service in your area (probably listed under county govt in the white pages) should have other information. Did you send the soil to be analyzed by the Extension Service, or to a private lab for lead analysis only? Shih Tung Chem E Best l'il Tech School on the Charles From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Mon Mar 14 16:00:41 EST 1994 Article: 27667 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: zengeos@aol.com (ZenGEOS) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Paw Paws and other native fruits Date: 9 Mar 1994 16:30:41 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 27 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2llf61$861@search01.news.aol.com> References: <2li1es$7od@apollo.it.luc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: Patty asks: <<< A good friend of mine (living here in Belgium) is looking for plants and specifically shrubs that would love a damp soil condition (clay reach soil anyway). Any suggestions? >>> I can give you the address of Eastern Plant Specialties Eastern Plant Specialties Box 226 Georgetown, ME 04548 OR call (207)371-2888 As for FAQ's. I wish I knew where FAQ's on this could be found. I'm new to Usenet for only a week or so, so am not too sure, tho I'm continuing to explore :) & hopefully I'll find other areas of interest :) ZenGEOS@aol.com aka Mark From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!pitstop.mcd.mot.com!mcdphx!stevea Mon Mar 14 22:28:43 EST 1994 Article: 27759 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!pitstop.mcd.mot.com!mcdphx!stevea From: stevea@solonsys.clv.mcd.mot.com (Steve Alexander) Subject: Re: Natural Salad Plants. Message-ID: <1994Mar8.231913.11187@phx.mcd.mot.com> Originator: stevea@solonsys Sender: news@phx.mcd.mot.com Nntp-Posting-Host: solonsys.phx.mcd.mot.com Organization: Motorola Computer Group References: Date: Tue, 8 Mar 1994 23:19:13 GMT Lines: 52 Status: O X-Status: In article , djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) writes: |> >I would like to grow natural salad plants like might be found in the wild. |> >I'm of the opinion that they have more nutrients than inbred varieties. |> >Any pointers? |> ...deletion |> |> Another spring green I have tried is nettles, which is supposed to taste like |> spinach. In my opinion, it was okay, but nothing to get excited about-- |> but then, a dish that aspires to spinach is not likely to win prizes. |> But maybe someone has a recipe better than my simple "boil and eat". |> |> Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio I've got to object - spinach gets a bad rap from the boil & serve recipe. Slimey and green are the only adjective to describe it. My current favorite spinach recipe is: bunch of spinach, 1 fl.oz olive oil, 1 tsp salt 1 (or 2) garlic cloves 1 or 2 oz of pine nuts (optional) grated parmisan cheese black pepper thoroughly wash a bunch of spinach (enough to approximately fill a 3 pt pot) drop it with whatever water clings to it into a pre-heated large bottomed cooking utensil (I wide pot is good, but if you are careful not to spill it a frying pan will work also) cook for 2-4 minutes till half-cooked (not totally limp). Set spinach aside in a strainer, but don't press it out - just let it drain. Heat some virgin olive oil in the large pan (1/2 to 1 fl.oz), when hot saute the minced or crushed garlic for about 1 minute, then add the spinach and salt, tossing and sauteing till done (a couple of minutes). add the pine nuts shortly before the spinach is done. I like a little black pepper. Top w/ grated parmesan. I don't see why this couldn't be adapted to nettles. -- Obviosly *MY* opinion, -- * * Steve Alexander stevea@clv.mcd.mot.com * From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!guardian.up.edu!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!danniw Mon Mar 14 22:29:26 EST 1994 Article: 27602 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.world.net!guardian.up.edu!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!danniw From: danniw@sequent.com (Daniella Wolfe) Subject: Re: Bat houses Message-ID: <1994Mar8.231556.28977@sequent.com> Sender: usenet@sequent.com (usenet ) Nntp-Posting-Host: family.sequent.com Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. References: <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 94 23:15:56 GMT Lines: 34 Status: O X-Status: dc770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gary L. Popa) writes: >I'd like to build a bat house, but got very little info from the >library or bookstores. Can anyone describe one made from wood? >I've read that the major differences between bird houses and bat >houses are that the bat house has a narrow slit near the floor, >instead of a hole (as in a bird house). How wide should this >slit be? Will a bat mind if i used cedar? I heard/read that >bats are beneficial to gardens and they help keep mosquito >population down. ----- Although my knowledge is also limited on this subject, I do know that a bat house is taller, wider across and not as deep as a bird house. The bottom is left entirely open and inside sometimes there are small perch-type things inserted. What I do know for certain, is that you'll have the best luck attracting bats if you attach your bathouse on the south side of your house at least 15-20 ft. from ground level. Although you see the houses hung often on fir and pine trees, bats don't like shade. They like it where it's warm, hence the attraction to attics in houses! Do you have a wild bird specialty store in your neighborhood? Here in Portland, we have lots of "Backyard Bird Shops". It has been here that I have found lots of info. on bats. The one I go to even has 2-3 different kinds of already built bat houses on display. (Already built, they run about $25, so it would be definitely cheaper to build your own!) Good luck! Danni From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller Mon Mar 14 22:29:32 EST 1994 Article: 27640 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!decwrl!pa.dec.com!im.lcs.mit.edu!dmiller From: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu (Dick and Jill Miller) Message-ID: <9403091753.AA18301@im8> Subject: Re: Bat houses Date: Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:53 EST X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA16334; Wed, 9 Mar 94 09:56:36 -0800 X-Received: from IM.LCS.MIT.EDU by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/13Jan94) id AA07411; Wed, 9 Mar 94 09:51:34 -0800 X-Received: from im8 (IM8.LCS.MIT.EDU) by im (4.1/TOC-1.1S) id AA26799; Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:58 EST X-Received: by im8 (4.1/TOC-1.1C) id AA18301; Wed, 9 Mar 94 12:53:53 EST X-To: rec.gardens.usenet Lines: 54 Status: O X-Status: In article: <2lfpi2$kb4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> dc770@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Gary L. Popa) asked: >I'd like to build a bat house, but got very little info from the >library or bookstores. Can anyone describe one made from wood? >I've read that the major differences between bird houses and bat >houses are that the bat house has a narrow slit near the floor, >instead of a hole (as in a bird house). In some designs, that's the main external difference. But the major differences are internal. A bathouse has lots of 'walls' to make lots of slit-shaped 'rooms' each just the size for a bat to hide in. (Remember how bats like to hide behind shutters?) Most bat houses have several different spacings of these 'walls' so that different species of bats can be accomodated in one bat house. (Only one kind at a time usually inhabits a house.) It helps if the house has an almost sealed, sun-warmed 'attic nursery' which also helps to warm and stabilize the temperature in lower area of the house. |\ | \ | \ <-roof may be less steep | \ small | attic \ opening | \ to get->| --------| into | | | | | | attic | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | <- no floor is needed ^ various-width slits (I've only shown a couple) > How wide should this slit be? Slits should be (typical) 3/4", 1" and 1-1/4" wide. >Will a bat mind if i used cedar? Bats have sensitive noses and would prefer weathered pine or another less aromatic wood. They are purported to prefer locations which already smell of bats. Bat guano, anyone? For lots more information write to: Bat Conservation International P.O. Box 162603 Austin, TX 78716-2603 --Jill (who intends lure more bats and fewer mosquitos to her own garden) A. Richard & Jill A. Miller | MILLER MICROCOMPUTER SERVICES | InterNet: dmiller@im.lcs.mit.edu | 61 Lake Shore Road | Voice: 508/653-6136, 9am-9pm -0500(EST)| Natick, MA 01760-2099, USA | MMSFORTH: The cure for the common code.| 42 18'00.79" N, 71 22'27.68" W| From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!birdie-blue.cis.pitt.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mm40+ Mon Mar 14 22:31:03 EST 1994 Article: 27635 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!birdie-blue.cis.pitt.edu!toads.pgh.pa.us!news.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!mm40+ From: "Marcie G. Mastracci" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Bat House Plans Date: Wed, 9 Mar 1994 08:42:50 -0500 Organization: Legal Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po2.andrew.cmu.edu Status: O X-Status: Wasn't someone asking about how to build a bat house a few days ago? I found just the thing: "The Bat House Builder's Handbook" by Dr. Merlin D. Tuttle, founder of Bat Conservation International, for only $5.95 available from: Plough & Hearth PO Box 830 Orange, VA 22960-0492 telephone: 1-800-843-2509 answers 24 hrs Also available "America's backyard Bats" by Dr. Tuttle & bat houses at $39.95 to $84.95. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.Brown.EDU!noc.near.net!ctron-news.ctron.com!ctron.com!blackett Mon Mar 14 22:31:40 EST 1994 Article: 27641 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.Brown.EDU!noc.near.net!ctron-news.ctron.com!ctron.com!blackett From: blackett@ctron.com (Geoffrey H. Blackett) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: GreenPrints magazine Date: 9 Mar 1994 17:38:46 GMT Organization: Cabletron Systems Inc Lines: 8 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ll1j6INNbpd@ctron-news.ctron.com> Reply-To: blackett@ctron.com (Geoffrey H. Blackett) NNTP-Posting-Host: goalie.ctron.com Status: O X-Status: In a seed order I received recently there was a flyer for GreenPrints gardening magazine. I have never seen this one before. Has anyone out there seen it? Is it oriented to any particular region in the country? Does it cover vegetable and flower gardening? Any comments would be appreciated. Geoff Blackett blackett@ctron.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail Mon Mar 14 22:32:58 EST 1994 Article: 27934 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!ctp.org!not-for-mail From: bmoon@eis.calstate.edu (Bruce A. Moon) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Bees and Fruit Trees Date: 14 Mar 1994 12:30:19 -0800 Organization: California Technology Project of The Calif State Univ Lines: 34 Message-ID: <2m2hgr$aln@eis.calstate.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: eis.calstate.edu Status: O X-Status: susans@comm.mot.com (Susan Bartlett Skutt) writes: > If this is a FAQ, please pardon me and direct me to the appropriate > location if you can... > > We have apple trees, pear trees, grapes, raspberries, currants, and > strawberries in our new backyard (moved in at the beg. of Sept.). There's > also wonderful garden space with 7 raised beds for veggies. We're thrilled > for the potential. > > However, my husband is allergic to bee stings, and we did notice a LOT of > bees in the yard before winter. What can we do to discourage bees from > nesting around the property? (Is there a predator we can attract, like > bats for mosquitoes?) Once they've nested, is there a preferable (i.e., > non-toxic to humans) way of getting rid of them? Any suggestions would be > great. I sympathize with your problem and I understand how deadly a bee sting can be. As a grower of 30 fruit trees, I wish I had your problem though. What do you mean by nesting? Maybe these are something other than bees. You can't have fruit without pollination by bees or flies. If your husband's life is threatened by bees, maybe you should take the trees down and avoid growing vegetable like squash and melons that attract bees. You can grow lettuce, chard, brassicas, onions, etc. as long as you don't let them bloom. Of course, you will also have to avoid flowers in ornamental areas. Of course, insecticides like Sevin are deadly to bees, but it wouldn't be fair to the bees or beekeeper for you to destroy these animals for something they naturally do. You may also encounter wasps and hornets. You can find some traps bor animals that are attracted by meat or sweets. Susan, please don't think me harsh. Trying to keep bees away from fruit trees is like trying to keep kids out of Disneyland or to stop men from thinking about sex. Bruce Moon Rio Linda, CA From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail Mon Mar 14 22:33:15 EST 1994 Article: 27848 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: burkhard@crl.com (Tom Burkhard) Newsgroups: alt.folklore.herbs,rec.gardens Subject: Summary: herb seed sources Date: 12 Mar 1994 12:52:11 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [login: guest] Lines: 70 Message-ID: <2lta1r$skm@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu alt.folklore.herbs:2195 rec.gardens:27848 Status: O X-Status: Back in the first part of January, I asked where to get catalogs for herb seeds or plants. I had intended to post a summary of the results earlier but I moved from Atlanta to Columbus, OH and I'm still trying to get my act together. Anyway, Thanks to everyone who responded and here's the list I compiled from the responses. (These are in no particular order.) Source Comments ---------------------------------------------------------------- Well-Swept Herb Farm Few seeds, many plants. 317 Mt. Bethel Road Port Murray, NJ 07865 (908) 852-5390 The Thyme Garden catalog $1.50(?), 20546 Alsea Highway refunded with purchase Alsea, OR 97324 (503) 487-8671 Richters catalog with descriptions Goodwood, Ontario of herbs effects. $2 N.A., Canada, L0C 1A0 $4 elswhere. (905) 640-6677 71550.3411@compuserve.com can be ordered by email. note that their address recently changed from richter@gpu.utcc.utoronto.ca Goodwin Creek Gardens Box 83 Williams, OR 97544 (503) 846-7357 Sandy Mush Herb Nursery catalog $4. Surrett Cove Road Leicester, NC 28748 Chiltern Seeds ship overseas and take credit cards. Bortree Stile Ulverston, Cumbria LA12 7PB Great Britain Southern Exposure Seed Exchange catalog $3. P.O. Box 158 North Garden, VA 22959 (804) 973-4703 Nichol's Garden Nursery 1190 N. Pacific Hwy Albany, OR 97321-4598 The American Botanic Council referred to for books on herbs. P.O. Box 201660 Austin, TX 78720 (512) 331-8868 (800) 373-7105 (order line) Herb Companion Magazine Bimonthly, $21/year Interweave Press Culinary, medicinal, growing 201 East Fourth St and craft coverage. Loveland, CO 80537 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom Burkhard (burkhard@crl.com) Columbus, Ohio, USA --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!leppik Tue Mar 15 23:52:38 EST 1994 Article: 27977 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!leppik From: leppik@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (leppik peter) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: FAQ, or mail-order addresses Date: 15 Mar 1994 19:51:12 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 18 Message-ID: <2m53jg$kgc@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <1994Mar15.151309.29715@khis.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Status: O X-Status: schnell@vortech.com (Bill Schnellinger ) writes: > I have been lurking for about a month, waiting for a FAQ, is there one availble? If so, where can I ftp it. > > If not, could someone post a list of the mail-order catalog addresses and phone numbers ( or, I could complie a list of responces ). > I am new to home-ownership and garding in particular, so any recommendations would be more then helpfull. I have been thinking of writing a Plants By Mail FAQ. This would include general tips on buying from catalogs (i.e. "check the hardiness," etc.), and include my impressions of the dozen or two different catalongs I get. E-mail me if you're interested in seeing this. If enough people want it, I may actually write it sometime. -- Peter Leppik-- p-leppi@uiuc.edu Assistant Head, Department of Mad Science University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Tue Mar 15 23:53:22 EST 1994 Article: 27980 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: susanford@aol.com (SusanFord) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: old roses Date: 14 Mar 1994 19:28:02 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 19 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2m2vei$4d0@search01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: Dr. W. Van Fleet can be found in the following catalog: Heirloom Old Garden Roses 24062 NE Riverside Drive St. Paul, Oregon 97137-9715 (503) 538-1576 FAX - 503-538-5902 The catalog is $5 and worth every penny! They carry an astonishing amount of old roses and Austin English roses as well. NONE of their roses are more than $9.95 (some as low as $7.95) , and they are grown on their own roots for added hardiness. If you like Dr. W. Van Fleet, try NEW DAWN, which is a mutation of that rose that repeats it's bloom. It is just as beautiful and just as resistant to disease. Susan Ford Norman, OK Zone 7 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!iat.holonet.net!totembbs!leonard.adolph Wed Apr 13 07:56:43 EDT 1994 Article: 29359 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.upenn.edu!iat.holonet.net!totembbs!leonard.adolph From: leonard.adolph@totembbs.com (Leonard Adolph) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Herb Gardening Date: Sun, 3 Apr 1994 15:35:00 GMT Message-ID: <940405031308782@totembbs.com> Organization: The Totem Pole BBS (810) 238-1178 Distribution: world Lines: 18 Status: O X-Status: Ds> I am just starting on an Herb Garden. What should I be aware of? Are Ds> there Herbs that are better for a novice to start with? Or do I just Ds> dive in. How big is too big to start? Thanks. I went through a period of years of herb growing and still have a number of favorites. Dive right in but pick up a book on herb gardening first. You will be disappointed if you try to grow cumin outside in an area like Michigan. :-) How big is too big to start? Grow what you can tend to, the same as any other garden. I usually plant about 3000 square feet of garden which takes at least an hour a day to properly care for after the initial plowing and planting is done. You also need to take into account the time needed for the final mass harvesting and preserving. Basil is a good start. It grows well in a variety of soils and the bugs don't mess with it much. There also is a wide selection of varities to play with and it is good for experimenting with in the kitchen. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20e Beta From peter@elsie.nci.nih.gov Wed Apr 13 23:30:05 EDT 1994 Article: 29699 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!darwin.sura.net!nih-csl!peter From: peter@elsie.nci.nih.gov (Peter J. Wirth) Subject: Re: Wasabi source needed! Message-ID: <1994Apr11.141429.3508@alw.nih.gov> Summary: Wasabi source Sender: postman@alw.nih.gov (AMDS Postmaster) Organization: National Institutes of Health References: <77@beerlaw.win.net> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 14:14:29 GMT Lines: 15 Status: O X-Status: In article <77@beerlaw.win.net>, lkbonham@beerlaw.win.net (Louis K. Bonham) writes: > Help! I've looked everywhere for a U.S. source (or one > willing / able to ship seeds to the U.S.) for Hatake Wasabi > (field wasabi), a Japanese horseradish, without success. > Anyone out there know of one (or of another Internet > newsgroup where I might find one)? > Unfortuneately, I cannot provide a source for "field" Wasabi seeds or plants. I can, however, offer a light insight into the growing conditions for wasabi once you have a source. Wasabi (Japanese radish) doesn't grow like your typical horseradish or icicle garden variety radish. In Japan wasabi is typically grown on mountain sides under a constant flow of water. Therefore, I think to grow wasabi successfully one is presented with certain technical difficulties (providing constant flow of rather cool water). Good luck in your search. -- peter@elsie.nci.nih.gov From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!usenet Fri Apr 15 23:07:46 EDT 1994 Article: 29529 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Keep cut flower fresh? Date: Fri, 08 Apr 94 17:33:03 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 25 Message-ID: <2o4tee$n10@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: O X-Status: > From: alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Al Harrington) > Subject: Keep cut flower fresh? > Date: 9 Apr 1994 00:02:04 GMT > Any advice on what can be added to water to keep cut flowers (mainly roses) > fresh longer than a couple of days? > > Thanks. Al - It is best to cut Roses (and other flowers) again just before placing in your vase - if you can cut underwater, so much the better. Roses may need to be re-cut again a few days later to extend their life. The longest lasting flowers are those picked just as the bud begins to open (not fully opened). Another trick is to add 7-Up or some other lemon-lime soda to your water. this adds some acid which helps prevent algae and anerobic life to spoil the water, and the sweetness adds a little food that the flowers can take up. Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!pcgfx!lee.paulsen Fri Apr 15 23:07:56 EDT 1994 Article: 29579 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Keep cut flower fresh? From: lee.paulsen@pcgfx.com (Lee Paulsen) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!decwrl!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!pcgfx!lee.paulsen Message-ID: References: <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 94 11:35:00 -0800 Organization: The PC GFX Exchange * San Francisco, CA * 415-337-5416 Lines: 16 Status: O X-Status: References: <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> AA: Any advice on what can be added to water to keep cut flowers (mainly r AA: fresh longer than a couple of days? Some of this depends on the rose variety itself. I've had some success by adding some sugar to the water. I've also heard that it is good to add a couple of drops of bleach to keep bacteria levels down. It is also useful to cut and recut the stems under water so air bubbles don't get inside. * RM 1.4 * "Ain't no angel going to greet me..." From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier Fri Apr 15 23:08:03 EDT 1994 Article: 29623 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier From: klier@cobra.uni.edu Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Keep cut flower fresh? Message-ID: <1994Apr10.154342.25731@cobra.uni.edu> Date: 10 Apr 94 15:43:42 -0600 References: <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> Organization: University of Northern Iowa Lines: 32 Status: O X-Status: In article <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com>, alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Al Harrington) writes: > Any advice on what can be added to water to keep cut flowers (mainly roses) > fresh longer than a couple of days? If these are cut flowers from the florist, they should have tossed in a packet or two of "floralife" or whatever preservative is compatible with the treatment used on the cut flowers (ever noticed how florist's flowers just turn brown, they don't drop their petals... that's the preservatives they use). If these are your own flowers, cut them when the plants are not water stressed...typically, first thing in the morning. Fill up the kitchen sink with water, and slice a couple of inches off the stems *while they are under water*. I use a sharp single edged razor blade for this... not shears, which crush stems. Place the flowers in a deep vase of warm water (about 35-40oC, 90-105oF; baby bath water) so that the stems are deeply submersed. Let them stand in a cool place (basement or refrigerator) for 6-12 hours. Now transfer them into the vase you're using for the arrangement, but fill with dilute 7-up or equivalent... any of the sugar based (non-diet) lemon-lime soft drinks, diluted about 1 part pop to 4 parts water. The sugar provides nutrients for the flowers, the citric acid keeps down the growth of bacteria. Don't forget to remove any foliage that will be under water in the finished arrangement, and to recut stems every day or so, and change the water now and then... Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!pc59.cce.ubc.ca!DEAL Fri Apr 15 23:08:17 EDT 1994 Article: 29732 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.intercon.com!panix!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!pc59.cce.ubc.ca!DEAL From: DEAL@cce.ubc.ca (Heather Deal) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Keep cut flower fresh? Date: Mon, 11 Apr 1994 11:29:06 Organization: UBC Continuing Studies Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pc59.cce.ubc.ca X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A] Status: O X-Status: In article <2o4r9s$ca5@hpchase.rose.hp.com> alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Al Harrington) writes: >From: alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Al Harrington) >Subject: Keep cut flower fresh? >Date: 9 Apr 1994 00:02:04 GMT >Any advice on what can be added to water to keep cut flowers (mainly roses) >fresh longer than a couple of days? Al, I'll second the cutting underwater and 7-up...we actually use sprite, same thing. Another tip I got which seems to work very well is aspirin...one when put in vase, another 2-3 days later. Good luck! Heather From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!apctrc!msc.edu!mr.net!bardeen.physics.csbsju.edu!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Fri Apr 15 23:11:40 EDT 1994 Article: 29587 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Is CCA PT lumber OK for a From: jim.mcnelly@gcbb.granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!apctrc!msc.edu!mr.net!bardeen.physics.csbsju.edu!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.654.2817.0N429249@gcbb.granite.mn.org> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 94 13:06:00 +0600 Organization: Granite Information Svs. 612-654-8372 hst 656-0678 v.32bis Lines: 90 Status: O X-Status: Doug Caprette asks: D>Hmm, I get the impression that I may have just missed a discussion on this >topic. D>Anyway, can anyone provide some informed opinion as to whether there would be >any problems anticipated with the use of Chromated copper arsenate treated >lumber for a grape arbor? D>"I think that this task is appointed for you, Frodo;" -- Elrond Great tagline Doug, Here is my FAQ on Arsenic Lumber, and in another post, the product safety sheet that is *supposed* to be handed out to every purchaser of the product which was a part of the EPA agreement to allow the product to be sold. Additional information on CCA, Chromated Copper Arsenate. The wood has been tested by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, Hazardous Waste section to be over 3000 parts per million arsenic. The EPA limit on arsenic in sewage sludge for unrestricted use is 11 PPM. There is at least one case of 24 cows dying from eating ash from CCA wood ash in MN and several cases in other states. There is another case of arsenic poisoning in a Wisconsin family from a backdraft in their fireplace while burning treated wood. Arsenic is associated with hair loss, diarrhea, asthma, skin cancer and other skin disorders. Particular caution should be exercised if the wood has a white, gritty residue on the surface, as these may be arsenic crystals. Penetrating oil stain may slow down weathering of fibers and reduce arsenic surface residues. The exposed ends of boards are more likely to leach arsenic than the rest of the board. The wood should be resealed every two years. Of particular concern is sawdust left at construction sites that can he ingested by children, pets, or become exposed to the skin. Runoff of sawdust into ponds, pools, wells and gardens is another concern. Arsenic is rated by the EPA as a class A carcinogen, the top level of risk. Children "mouthing" the wood are also at risk, especially the board ends that release twelve times the arsenic of the rest of the wood. This is especially a concern as arsenic treated wood is a common component in playground equipment. Tests for arsenic beneath children's play equipment have run as high as hundreds of times above background levels. Treated wood is also a problem in disposal. While such a broad range biocide such as CCA retards decay, it does not stop it. Estimates of rot resistance of 20 to 50 years are common. The wood will *eventually* decay, and with the sawdust and ends from construction, will have to go somewhere. The treated wood industries have lobbied to have CCA treated wood exempted from hazardous waste designation through a de-listing procedure that is still unclear. The product is currently allowed to be sent to conventional and demolition landfills. It is often burned with other wood wastes and is commonly chipped into landscape mulch or compressed into toxic fuel pellets. It releases toxic fumes and ash in house fires, putting neighbors and firefighters at extra risk. The ash from a burned CCA patio deck is not managed as the hazardous material it is. The argument from the treated wood industry has been that the arsenic does not leach from the wood fiber under normal soil conditions. While this is somewhat true, it is misleading. The wood will _eventually_ decay and leach its metals and there is currently no safe disposal. The practice of burning wood scraps and the mismanagement of the wood both residentially and commercially has resulted in airborne arsenic levels increasing nationwide, especially in the major cities where scavengers burn scrap wood for heat. Most uses of the wood such as decks, fences, and stakes are not necessary for such extreme wood treatment. Only in the Southeast is the potential of climate high in promoting decay. There is no need for treated wood at all in the west, except on the northwest coast. Because of these concerns, but primarily due to the threats of the wood to commercial organic wood recycling, I am recommending that the product only be sold or used by licensed and trained professionals, similar to other hazardous pesticides, and that it be banned from non-hazardous land disposal sites. Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly ReSourceNet and GardenNet 612-654-8372, 656-0678 v.32bis jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * April 9th - A bird in the hand craps on the wrist. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!apctrc!msc.edu!mr.net!bardeen.physics.csbsju.edu!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Fri Apr 15 23:14:12 EDT 1994 Article: 29588 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Is CCA PT lumber OK for a From: jim.mcnelly@gcbb.granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!paperboy.amoco.com!apctrc!msc.edu!mr.net!bardeen.physics.csbsju.edu!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.655.2817.0N42924A@gcbb.granite.mn.org> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 94 13:06:00 +0600 Organization: Granite Information Svs. 612-654-8372 hst 656-0678 v.32bis Lines: 63 Status: O X-Status: Doug Caprette asks: D>Hmm, I get the impression that I may have just missed a discussion on this >topic. D>Anyway, can anyone provide some informed opinion as to whether there would be >any problems anticipated with the use of Chromated copper arsenate treated >lumber for a grape arbor? Here is the Consumer Information Sheet about pressure treated wood that I received from the American Wood Preserver's Association, PO Box 5283, Springfield, VA 22150 that is SUPPOSED to be provided to every purchaser of CCA, ACA, and ACZA treated wood. This is exactly as it appears without editing. "This wood has been preserved by pressure treatment with an EPA registered pesticide containing inorganic arsenic to protect it from insect attack and decay. Wood treated with inorganic arsenic should be used only where such protection is important. Inorganic arsenic penetrates deeply and remains in the pressure treated wood for a long time. Exposure to inorganic arsenic may present certain hazards. Therefore, the following precautions should be taken when handling the treated wood and in determining where to use or dispose of the treated wood. USE SITE PRECAUTIONS Wood pressure treated with waterborne arsenical preservatives may be used inside residences as long as all sawdust and construction debris are cleaned up and disposed after construction. Do not use treated wood under circumstances where the preservative may become a component of food or animal feed. Examples for such sites would be structures or containers for storing silage or food. Do not use treated wood for cutting boards or counter tops. Only treated wood that is visibly clean and free of surface residue should be used for patios, decks, and walkways. Do not use treated wood for construction of beehives that may come in contact with honey. Treated wood should not be used where it may come into direct or indirect contact with public drinking water, except for uses involving incidental contact such as docks and bridges. HANDLING PRECAUTIONS Dispose of treated wood by ordinary trash collection or burial. Treated wood should not be burned in open fires or in stoves, fireplaces, or residential boilers because toxic chemicals may be produced as a part of the smoke and ashes. Treated wood from commercial or industrial use (e.g construction sites) may be burned only in commercial or industrial incinerators or boilers in accordance with state and federal regulations. Avoid frequent or prolonged inhalation of sawdust from treated wood. When sawing and machining treated wood, wear a dust mask. Whenever possible, these operations should be performed outdoors to avoid indoor accumulations of airborne sawdust from treated wood. When power sawing and machining, wear goggles to protect eyes from flying particles. After working with the wood, and before eating, drinking, and use of tobacco products, wash exposed areas thoroughly. Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly ReSourceNet and GardenNet 612-654-8372, 656-0678 v.32bis jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * April 9th - Galactic Wanderer From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!acavax.lynchburg.edu!henderson Fri Apr 15 23:16:18 EDT 1994 Article: 29651 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!acavax.lynchburg.edu!henderson From: henderson@acavax.lynchburg.edu (LIZABETH F. HENDERSON) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: specialty catalogs for shade gardening ? Message-ID: <1994Apr10.183422.679@acavax.lynchburg.edu> Date: 10 Apr 94 18:34:22 -0500 References: Organization: Lynchburg College Lines: 33 Status: O X-Status: Fletcher@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Karen Fletcher) writes: > Can anyone recommend catalogs specializing in plants for shade gardening? I > have the Shady Oaks Nursery catalog (hosta lovers, get this one!) and > wondered if there were any other good ones out there. > ================================================== Karen - I haven't seen anyone recommend Andre Viette on this newsgroup yet. His nursery is one of my favorites. I don't have experience with their mail order service as the nursery is about an hour and a half drive from me (and a visit is worth every minute of the drive - they have extensive display gardens and are very helpful with growing info), but if you are looking for perennials, write for their catalog. There is an extensive listing of shade loving perennials. No pictures and plants are listed by their botanical name, so you have to know what you're looking for or have a good illustrated book to refer to, but at least you can be sure of what you're getting. Ya want Hostas? how 'bout over 100 hostas species and varieties. The biggest problem i have with them is trying to make up my mind. My entire backyard is medium to deep shade and I've found very few annuals that like those conditions, so I'm becoming a perennial gardener. Anyway the address is: Andre Viette Farm & Nursery Star Route 608 Rt 1 Box 16 Fisherville, VA 22939 (Alittle bit north of I-64, half way between Charlottesville & Staunton for any "new Virginians" like myself on the group) Lizabeth Henderson - Lynchburg, Virginia henderson@acavax.lynchburg.edu . From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Fri Apr 15 23:17:33 EDT 1994 Article: 30000 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!uicvm.uic.edu!u14371 Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago, ADN Computer Center Date: Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:25:01 CDT From: Message-ID: <94103.172501U14371@uicvm.uic.edu> Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Apple Tree Source Distribution: world References: <59.2071.3951.0N639F24@windmill.com> Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: In article <59.2071.3951.0N639F24@windmill.com>, dean.waters@windmill.com (Dean Waters) says: > >I am interested in finding a source for Jona-Gold apple trees. Anyone have >any ideas? Look into Bear Creek Nursery, Northport, WA >dean.waters@windmill.com >--- > * SPEED 1.40 #1333 * Error reading FAT table. Try skinny one? (Y/N) From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-1-37.ots.utexas.edu!user Fri Apr 15 23:18:36 EDT 1994 Article: 29650 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-1-37.ots.utexas.edu!user From: mccartney@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu (Rae McCartney) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Where's the herb FAQ? Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 10 Apr 1994 18:59:34 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-1-37.ots.utexas.edu Status: O X-Status: I really would like a copy of the three great herb faq's that were posted a couple of weeks ago, but didn't copy it. Can anyone send me a copy? Thanks in advance. Rae McCartney mccartney@mbs.telesys.utexas.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!pirates!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!snorth Fri Apr 15 23:19:57 EDT 1994 Article: 29743 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!pirates!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!snorth From: snorth@acs.ucalgary.ca (Sheldon North) Subject: Re: Getting rid of Diatomacious Earth Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 05:47:23 GMT Distribution: usa References: <9404111709.PN14247@LL.MIT.EDU> Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 23 Status: O X-Status: Mike Killoran (killoran@ll.mit.edu) wrote: : I read somewhere that it is just crushed shells of some ancient : crustacean but I'm not sure about this. If it is just crushed Yes, just the endoskeltons of diatoms. It is primarily silicon dioxide (aka glass, sand) and was also used to stabilize nitroglycerine (Nobel dynamite). : shells, I would think it would be OK to dump it in the compost : pile or sprinkle it around in the woods. I'd rather not have : it hauled away to a landfill if it is benign enough for the : backyard. I would expect that it would be great for soil/compost because it has a lot of surface area and thus should help drainage and gas-exchange. I doubt it would help nutrient holding capacity, but it isn't likely to hurt it either. Sheldon From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!pirates!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!snorth Fri Apr 15 23:26:35 EDT 1994 Article: 29743 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!pirates!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.mic.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!alberta!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!snorth From: snorth@acs.ucalgary.ca (Sheldon North) Subject: Re: Getting rid of Diatomacious Earth Message-ID: Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 05:47:23 GMT Distribution: usa References: <9404111709.PN14247@LL.MIT.EDU> Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 23 Status: O X-Status: Mike Killoran (killoran@ll.mit.edu) wrote: : I read somewhere that it is just crushed shells of some ancient : crustacean but I'm not sure about this. If it is just crushed Yes, just the endoskeltons of diatoms. It is primarily silicon dioxide (aka glass, sand) and was also used to stabilize nitroglycerine (Nobel dynamite). : shells, I would think it would be OK to dump it in the compost : pile or sprinkle it around in the woods. I'd rather not have : it hauled away to a landfill if it is benign enough for the : backyard. I would expect that it would be great for soil/compost because it has a lot of surface area and thus should help drainage and gas-exchange. I doubt it would help nutrient holding capacity, but it isn't likely to hurt it either. Sheldon From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!news.kei.com!news.oc.com!convex!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews!iddaix01.raleigh.ibm.com!kathyvi Fri Apr 15 23:29:11 EDT 1994 Article: 30047 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!panix!ddsw1!news.kei.com!news.oc.com!convex!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.ans.net!newsgate.watson.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews!iddaix01.raleigh.ibm.com!kathyvi From: kathyvi@iddaix01.raleigh.ibm.com () Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Sender: news@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com (news) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Apr 1994 16:06:14 GMT Reply-To: kathyvi@ralvm13.vnet.ibm.com References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> Nntp-Posting-Host: iddaix01.raleigh.ibm.com Organization: AIX Network Management Information Development Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: |> In article <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> sharon@rose.lbl.gov (Sharon Oh) writes: |> |> >My garden back home in Singapore used to be full of |> >hummingbirds, and I'd like to attract them to my |> >new home in California. Are hummingbirds only |> >present in the summer, or can I start trying to |> >attract them now? What are your experiences in |> >trying to attract them? I'd really appreciate any |> >advice/experiences that you can give. Ever since I planted monarda (beebalm) and columbines, I've been getting hummingbirds in droves. They buzz around my head like huge bees when I'm gardening. Those little guys are fearless. In the past, I only had Cambridge Scarlet monarda - this year, I planted the lavender colored and bright pink ones. It will be interesting to see if these are as interesting to hummers as the traditional red flowers. Kathy Viaropulos IBM, Research Triangle Park, NC email to: kathyvi@vnet.ibm.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!rtech!askinc!jdavis Fri Apr 15 23:30:16 EDT 1994 Article: 30023 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!swrinde!sgiblab!rtech!askinc!jdavis From: jdavis@askinc.ASK.COM (Jim Davis) Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Message-ID: <1994Apr14.185502.25254@askinc.Ingres.COM> Reply-To: jdavis@askinc.ask.COM (Jim Davis) Organization: The ASK Group References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> <976@biosys.apldbio.COM> Date: 14 Apr 94 18:55:01 GMT Lines: 16 Status: O X-Status: On hummingbirds, Audubon (the ornithologist) wrote that the hummingbirds he saw feed on sugar water didn't live long (only months). Which would seem to indicate that they may need more nutrition in their diet. I have not noticed that here on th San Francisco penisula. My (well not really mine) hummers have been around several years now. They are exclusively Annas hummingbirds which, as a rule, do not migrate away. I have seen them more on my geraniums, fuchias, penstemon and other flowers much more often than at the feeders (which in our "mild" weather sould be cleaned every 5 days or so). I have also read that they feed on small insects to get protien, but i have not observed this. My Grandparents who lived at the Sea Ranch on the northern Californis coast had dozens of hummers always feeding at their 3 feeders. These seemed to nest in oak and laurels exclusively, although it's hard to tell with these small wonders. P.S. Does anyone out there have hummingbird .GIF, .JPG, .TIF or any other pics?? please pardon the terrible grammer and spelling errors! From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!da_vinci!newsit.ecte.uswc.uswest.com!hogan Fri Apr 15 23:30:28 EDT 1994 Article: 29985 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!da_vinci!newsit.ecte.uswc.uswest.com!hogan From: hogan@newsit.ecte.uswc.uswest.com (Barry Hogan) Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Message-ID: Sender: news@da_vinci.it.uswc.uswest.com (IT Netnews) Nntp-Posting-Host: lookout Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> <976@biosys.apldbio.COM> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 15:29:22 GMT Lines: 3 Status: O X-Status: Hummingbirds are attracted to Trumpet Vine (the red variety) that grows up a telephone pole near my residence. Barry dean. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!kpmglib Fri Apr 15 23:31:09 EDT 1994 Article: 29760 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!galaxy.ucr.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!amdahl!netcomsv!netcom.com!kpmglib From: kpmglib@netcom.com (Information Services) Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 17:18:06 GMT X-Original-Newsgroups: rec.gardens Lines: 45 Status: O X-Status: In article <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov>, Sharon Oh wrote: > >My garden back home in Singapore used to be full of >hummingbirds, and I'd like to attract them to my >new home in California. Are hummingbirds only >present in the summer, or can I start trying to >attract them now? What are your experiences in >trying to attract them? I'd really appreciate any >advice/experiences that you can give. Tell me all >your hummingbird stories, I love those little birds! > You don't say where in California you live...it may make a difference. Here in Southern California, especially when we have a mild winter, as we just have, the hummingbirds can and do stay all year round. Two species of hummingbird predominate in this area of the country, the Allens hummingbird and Annas hummingbird; and I have also seen Black-chinned and (I think) Costas hummingbirds as well. I usually see the hummingbirds in large numbers right around May...although generally you'll get one or two passing through as early as January. Two suggestions for attracting them: 1) Get a hummingbird feeder and keep it full, and 2) Plant "hummingbird flowers" all around your house. Hummingbirds love red, tubular flowers. I've planted Cape Hunysuckle, Christina's Lantana, Geraniums, Lady-In-Red, Fuschia, Colombine, and a few others (the names of which escape me at present), and I see the birds feeding on these as frequently as at the feeder. (They really love the Lady-In-Red and Lantana) All of these species will do well in pots, also. With luck, the hummingbirds will remember your garden and feeder, and return each year...insuring that you will have a continual supply of birds to watch. We've had the same male (I'm pretty sure) come back 3 years in a row now (although I don't know if the same pairs mate...don't ever recoginze the female), as well as a string of challengers for the feeder (have seen as many as 7 birds fighting for our 3 station feeder). Happy birding! Richard -- KPMG Peat Marwick | Los Angeles Information Services | California, U.S.A. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!nrtpa038!brtph560!emilys Fri Apr 15 23:31:16 EDT 1994 Article: 29925 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!news.utdallas.edu!corpgate!nrtpa038!brtph560!emilys From: emilys@brtph7cc.bnr.ca (Emily Smith) Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Sender: news@brtph560.bnr.ca (Usenet News) Message-ID: <1994Apr12.183448.1656@brtph560.bnr.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 1994 18:34:48 GMT References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> Organization: Bell-Northern Research, RTP, NC Lines: 24 Status: O X-Status: In article <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov>, Sharon Oh wrote: > >My garden back home in Singapore used to be full of >hummingbirds, and I'd like to attract them to my >new home in California. Are hummingbirds only >present in the summer, or can I start trying to >attract them now? What are your experiences in >trying to attract them? I'd really appreciate any >advice/experiences that you can give. Tell me all >your hummingbird stories, I love those little birds! Sharon, Hummingbirds seemed to love the Mexican Sunflower (Thitonia) I planted last year. It is easy to grow from seed, but gets huge (6' tall, 4' wide). If you have the space and the sun, give it a try! Good luck, Emily Emily Smith * All opinions are mine emilys@bnr.ca * not those of BNR or NT From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!cac.psu.edu!gho Fri Apr 15 23:31:20 EDT 1994 Article: 29952 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!cac.psu.edu!gho From: gho@cac.psu.edu (George H. Otto) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Attracting hummingbirds Date: 13 Apr 1994 21:00:06 GMT Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2ohmgm$qqe@hearst.cac.psu.edu> References: <2ocpgi$fme@overload.lbl.gov> <1994Apr12.183448.1656@brtph560.bnr.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: hotlanta.cac.psu.edu Status: O X-Status: For those with less space, here are a few compact to moderately sized perennials that attract hummingbirds in my Pennsylvania garden. It does seem that red is a real attractor for these guys. I also keep a feeder out. Heuchera sanguinea (Coral Bells) they feed on this Centranthus ruber "roseus" (Jupiter's Beard) they feed on this Chrysanthemum coccinium (Pyrethrum or Painted Daisy) mostly an attractor Dianthus (Sweet William and Carnations) mostly an attractor Knipfovia(?) (Red Hot Poker or Torch Lily) they feed on this Lillium (Asiatic hybrids and Tiger lilies) they feed on these I've also seen them feeding on Azaleas when in bloom. They can be noisy buggers on a still day. -- ======================================================================== George H. Otto george-otto@psu.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!newserve!sarah!psinntp!psinntp!daneel!seldon!nathan Wed May 4 11:24:17 EDT 1994 Article: 30937 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!newserve!sarah!psinntp!psinntp!daneel!seldon!nathan From: nathan@seldon.foundation.tricon.com (Number 6) Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Message-ID: <1994Apr24.020144.19221@daneel.foundation.tricon.com> Organization: Triicon Systems, Inc., Lompoc, CA References: <2onj2o$6u2@bigfoot.wustl.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Sun, 24 Apr 1994 02:01:43 GMT Lines: 38 Status: O X-Status: Funny you should all be talking about water gardens and pools. I have the "official" liner setup, just waiting to get permits and all (since I am being ambitious building decking all around it with a bridge to my front door). However, I couldn't wait any longer! And, with a rainstorm approaching (it's raining now) I went outside this morning under my northside roof overhangs and dug a 12 inch deep hole, 48" wide in a circle and put in my son's kiddie pool. It's as thick as pond liner but is vinyl or something. It's not the kind you fill with air it depends on water pressure to hold it in shape. I got it into the ground before it started raining. Took all of about 45 minutes to dig and level the hole, then about another 20 minutes to backfill and place the kiddie pool in the ground. It now has about two inches of water in it (only got a trace of rain so far, but the roof drips right into it). The pond is for native frogs and toads so I can get them in my quest against snails and slugs and earwigs! The official pond will have koi or goldfish in it after I get the permits. Unfortunately, I can't find any more of that style of kiddie pool. I looked at WalMart, Home Base, Thrifty and Long's and none had it anylonger. My mother in law had purchased it from Long's in Northern California. Oh, and I won't be having a pump in the kiddiepond/pool. I'm going to be depending on plants to do the aeration and all. Plus, water replenishment will be done by the roof overhangs. When we get dense fog during the summer, it drips off the roof and tree leaves, so it should hold up even in summer. I've also got on order some of those new mosquito repellent plants (don't know if they work, haven't put one in). *********************************************************************** Nathan D. Lane, VP Triicon Systems. Lompoc, CA (805) 7331849 NaN != 6, 6 == 1. I am not a number, I am a free list! I'm a programmer my computers are more valuable than my cars. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff Wed May 4 11:24:41 EDT 1994 Article: 30982 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Message-ID: <1994Apr26.162911.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Lines: 44 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: <2onj2o$6u2@bigfoot.wustl.edu> <1994Apr24.020144.19221@daneel.foundation.tricon.com> Distribution: usa Date: Tue, 26 Apr 1994 22:29:11 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <1994Apr24.020144.19221@daneel.foundation.tricon.com>, nathan@seldon.foundation.tricon.com (Number 6) writes: [stuff deleted] > > The official pond will have koi or goldfish in it after I get the > permits. > > Unfortunately, I can't find any more of that style of kiddie pool. I > looked at WalMart, Home Base, Thrifty and Long's and none had it > anylonger. My mother in law had purchased it from Long's in Northern > California. > > Oh, and I won't be having a pump in the kiddiepond/pool. I'm going > to be depending on plants to do the aeration and all. Plus, water > replenishment will be done by the roof overhangs. When we get dense > fog during the summer, it drips off the roof and tree leaves, so it > should hold up even in summer. I've also got on order some of those > new mosquito repellent plants (don't know if they work, haven't put > one in). Sounds like a real nice setup. But I'd make one suggestion - use something to move the water around (pump, bubbler, paddles) otherwise it'll probably get stagnant and start smelling. In nature, a small pond would eventually fill in from plant material and animal/fish excreta. Or perhaps remain boglike assuming it had a reliable water supply. But if it's something by your front door, you probably don't want it to evolve that far beyond your intitial set up. Get some local minows to take care of the mosquito's if you don't want to use goldfish or koi. Scheduled partial water changes wouldn't hurt either. You could even use your pump to suck the scum off the bottom of it every now and then too - otherwise everytime you scare the fish and they take off, you'll have a nice cloud of brown to look at. rick Hoffman. > > > > *********************************************************************** > Nathan D. Lane, VP Triicon Systems. Lompoc, CA (805) 7331849 > NaN != 6, 6 == 1. I am not a number, I am a free list! > I'm a programmer my computers are more valuable than my cars. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!qiclab!arts!lily!palepink Wed May 4 11:25:24 EDT 1994 Article: 31145 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!qiclab!arts!lily!palepink From: palepink@lily.arts.com (Suzii Abe) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Message-ID: <763iLc10w165w@lily.arts.com> Date: Thu, 28 Apr 94 22:16:29 PDT References: <1994Apr26.162911.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Lines: 58 Status: O X-Status: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com writes: > In article <1994Apr24.020144.19221@daneel.foundation.tricon.com>, nathan@seld > [stuff deleted] > > > > The official pond will have koi or goldfish in it after I get the > > permits. > > > > Oh, and I won't be having a pump in the kiddiepond/pool. I'm going > > to be depending on plants to do the aeration and all. Plus, water > > replenishment will be done by the roof overhangs. When we get dense AAARRRGGHHH! Nathan, I'm assuming that you have an aluminum roof, and that it doesn't have leaf trash collecting on it, and that your gutters are all perfectly clean, but you really should, when you say something like that, include a caveat so that the rest of rec.gardens doesn't get the idea that their roofs aren't covered with fish poison. [Actually...without a pump, you'll have *less* concern with water replenishment, not more. There are two reasonable ways to get water into your fishpond. Fill a 5-gallon bucket from your hose and add the appropriate quantity of Start-Quick or whatever they call it. Or get a hose attachment that produces a *VERY* fine mist and sit beside the pond holding it for a while. Either method reduces the chlorine in the tapwater; the mist carries some dissolved oxygen; the water treatment stuff helps promote fish slime (this is good, honest). In either case, don't add enough at once to change the temperature of the pond.] > Sounds like a real nice setup. But I'd make one suggestion - > use something to move the water around (pump, bubbler, paddles) > otherwise it'll probably get stagnant and start smelling. We had a 100 gallon pond with no mechanical water-mover for a year and it didn't smell. For water motion we used seven goldfish (2 comets, 5 shubunkin). (After a year we added a waterfall because we'd been wanting one and we were concerned about the fish' health and wanted to increase the oxygenation. Turned out they were hiding because they were producing billions of eggs, but we're still glad we have the waterfall.) > Scheduled partial water changes wouldn't hurt either. You could > even use your pump to suck the scum off the bottom of it every > now and then too - otherwise everytime you scare the fish and > they take off, you'll have a nice cloud of brown to look at. "Every now and then" really only means every year or two, as long as you keep the volumes of fish, floating plants, oxygenating plants and water relatively balanced. Snails and mussels are good at cleaning up the scum on the liner. --Suzii. palepink@lily.arts.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff Wed May 4 11:25:35 EDT 1994 Article: 31248 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Message-ID: <1994May2.115722.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Lines: 50 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: <1994Apr26.162911.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> <763iLc10w165w@lily.arts.com> Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 17:57:22 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <763iLc10w165w@lily.arts.com>, palepink@lily.arts.com (Suzii Abe) writes: > rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com writes: > >> In article <1994Apr24.020144.19221@daneel.foundation.tricon.com>, nathan@seld >> [stuff deleted] >> > [Good comments by Suzii deleted] >> Scheduled partial water changes wouldn't hurt either. You could >> even use your pump to suck the scum off the bottom of it every >> now and then too - otherwise everytime you scare the fish and >> they take off, you'll have a nice cloud of brown to look at. > > "Every now and then" really only means every year or two, as > long as you keep the volumes of fish, floating plants, > oxygenating plants and water relatively balanced. Snails > and mussels are good at cleaning up the scum on the liner. > > --Suzii. > palepink@lily.arts.com A watchout on snails. THEY MULTIPLY! And you can't hardly get rid of them once you get them. And once you get them, you'll have LOTS of them. Even those snail killing chemicals you can buy wont get rid of all of them (plus in a closed system, that stuff discolors everything). A watchout on mussels. They are excellent at filtrating water, but they're not easy to determine if they're alive or not (without pulling them out and looking). Other comments about cleaning the pond. If it's big (100's of gal) then I agree with Suzii, you may NEVER have to clean it out (beside pruning plants and culling fish). But it it's small (under 100 gal), then you really need to do something to it at least once a year. Basic rule is, the smaller it is, the more you have to mess with it. The obvious reason is that it becomes increasingly difficult to duplicate a natural envirnment in a limited space. Why water movement is important - the majority of 'chemical' cleansing (gas exchange) takes place at the surface. The more water that gets exposed to the air, the less build up of the various byproducts/toxins/etc in the water. The smaller the system, the more important it gets (similar to above). Large bodies of water will get plenty of movement due to wind, temperature differences (convection currents), etc. Rick Hoffman > From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!psgrain!qiclab!arts!lily!palepink Wed May 4 11:26:06 EDT 1994 Article: 30968 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel!psgrain!qiclab!arts!lily!palepink From: palepink@lily.arts.com (Suzii Abe) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Message-ID: <5D9cLc5w165w@lily.arts.com> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 94 18:23:39 PDT References: <2p5o4u$5mc@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> Lines: 32 Status: O X-Status: zaphod@ctrg.rri.uwo.ca (Lance R. Bailey) writes: > i too was all set to use an old swimming pool liner for a pond, but the pool > maker told me that the liner would prevent and plants or fish from living. > > pond liners are made from special non-toxic materials. I've heard lots about "fish-grade" PVC or EPDM liners, but never from anyone who can tell me what the difference is or what tests are used to determine toxicity. I know, "when the roofers use EPDM, it's sprinkled with talcum powder to keep from sticking together." Only that's not what the roofing EPDM manufacturers say--in fact, Jack H from the Garden Pond BBS checked with the manufacturer and the word is that they sell exactly the same product as "fish-grade" and for roofing. Does anybody have information on this from some source that didn't just deduce that, because there is such a product as "fish-grade" liner, materials not so marked must be toxic? Or from some source that wasn't planning to make money from selling the "fish-grade" liner? (I could well believe that a liner that had seen lengthy duty in a swimming pool would absorb nasty levels of Chlorine, and would release it over time into a pond. I could also well believe that it's all a load of hooey.) --Suzii. palepink@lily.arts.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!usenet Wed May 4 11:26:38 EDT 1994 Article: 31204 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!gumby!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!yeshua.marcam.com!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!usenet From: vaughan@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (Kirby Vaughan) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Water Gardens/Pools Date: 28 Apr 1994 20:33:09 GMT Organization: GTE Federal Systems Division, GSC Lines: 7 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2pp6i5$riq@europa.eng.gtefsd.com> References: <2p5o4u$5mc@falcon.ccs.uwo.ca> Reply-To: vaughan@europa.eng.gtefsd.com NNTP-Posting-Host: norm.eng.gtefsd.com Status: O X-Status: It's not worth cutting corners on a pond liner. After you go to the trouble of digging the hole why put in a substitute for a liner which will only last a couple of years tops and will require you to drain the pond and upset fish, plants and froggies in a year or two and do all that work over again? There is nothing more upsetting than to walk out some morning to find your pond dry and the fish flipping on the bottom. Cheap liner substitutes just will not hold up to the sunlight and the freeze/thaw cycles of the winter.There are some specialty fishpond suppliers which will sell you just the size piece you need from a bulk roll and cheaper than buying one of the prepackaged kits. (Lilypons?) An alternative which we have used for small ponds are fiberglass or PVC stock watering tanks from a farm supply. You can get them from 40 to 500 gallons. Prices are usually around $45-$55 for a 100 gallon which is about 5ft long, 2ft wide and 2 ft deep. They are usually HEAVY-duty, black, and will last forever. You just dig a hole to drop it in or surround it with rocks to disguise it. Kirby Vaughan vaughan@europa.eng.gtefsd.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!axb39 Wed May 4 11:57:29 EDT 1994 Article: 30939 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!po.CWRU.Edu!axb39 From: axb39@po.CWRU.Edu (Ann Burlingham) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Rochester (NY) Lilac Festival May 13-22 Date: 26 Apr 1994 19:00:58 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 43 Message-ID: <2pjoda$kvl@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: axb39@po.CWRU.Edu (Ann Burlingham) NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: (From Genesee Country Magazine, without permission, of course) In 1898, 3,000 Rochesterians took an unofficial stroll through Highland Park to sniff the lilacs, but it wasn't until 1930 that the Chamber of Commerce organized a permanent festival. The parks' lilac collection was started by horticulturist John Dunbar in 1992 with 20 varieties, some descending from slips of native Balkan Mountain flowers carried to the New World by early colonists. This year, 500,000 visitors are expected to enjoy over 500 varieties of lilacs - 1,200 bushes creating a spectrum of deepest purple to purest white - growing throughout 22 of Highland Park's 155 acres. Opening day ceremonies will be May 13, with the Lilac 10K Race set for Saturday in downtown Rochester. Also on Saturday, the popular Lilac Festival Parade, an extravaganza of floats, marching bands and drum and bugle corps, is expected to attract 50,000 spectators. Concerts are planned for the Downtown Festival Tent and Highland Bowl. Jugglers, clowns and musicians will continue the tradition of children's entertainment both weekends, and the popular, free Senior's Breakfast, followed by tours, seminars and entertainment, is set for May 18. An antique, craft and collectibles show and sale will be held May 14-15 from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. in and around the big tent at the corner of South and Highland Avenues. The Arts for Greater Rochester Art Show and Sale will be held at the same location the following weekend. Again, the festival rarely coincides with the peak of the lilac bloom. I'm not sure who'd be best to check with for that information- perhaps the park service. The issue of the Genesee Country magazine I found this in, the April/May 1994 issue, features articles on "Great Gardens of the Genesee," watergardens, a family orchard/flower farm, wild plants, the Bergen swamp, and "The living wall: feeding the third world," and Rochester's change from the Flour to the Flower City. If not yet sold out, the issue can be obtained by sending $3 to Genesee Country Magazine, Clarion Publications, P.O. Box 267, Avon, New York 14414-9986. (No, before you ask, I have no affiliation with the magazine - in fact, my mother feuds with its publisher- but this issue's pretty good.) -- Ann Burlingham Then to Sylvia Sears Library Case Western Reserve University let us sing, x5200 10900 Euclid Avenue That Sylvia axb39@po.cwru.edu Cleveland, Ohio 44106 is excelling... From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult Wed May 4 11:58:09 EDT 1994 Article: 31111 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!uchinews!apollo!orion.it.luc.edu!jmcnult From: jmcnult@orion.it.luc.edu (John A. Mcnulty) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Attracting Butterflies Message-ID: <2pmrh8$ok2@apollo.it.luc.edu> Date: 27 Apr 94 23:12:40 GMT References: <43562@mindlink.bc.ca> Organization: Loyola University of Chicago Lines: 19 NNTP-Posting-Host: orion.it.luc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Joe Moulins (Joe_Moulins@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote: : How do you do it? (attracting butterflies) The buyers for the Natural Garden in St. Charles Illinois were impressed by an annual purple verbena (var. Bonarnais) at some plant exposition. They started a bunch and offered them for sale. Since they weren't in flower in the spring (they get *big*) no one bought any. So they planted a bed of them. By late summer it was VERY impressive...this one bed in the middle of all their exhibition beds that was swarming with butterflies! The next year I got there early to see if they had some to sell. Due to the lack of interest the previous year, they only had a few. These sold out *immediately* to people like me who had learned their lesson. Patty, not John From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!usenet Wed May 4 11:58:48 EDT 1994 Article: 31213 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!usenet From: Bob Klebba Subject: Re: Attracting Butterflies Message-ID: <1994Apr29.180117.14374@nicmad.uucp> X-Xxdate: Fri, 29 Apr 94 13: 10:11 GMT Sender: usenet@nicmad.uucp Nntp-Posting-Host: mac2_14 Organization: Nicolet Instrument Corporation X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d24 References: <43562@mindlink.bc.ca> <2pmrh8$ok2@apollo.it.luc.edu> Date: Fri, 29 Apr 1994 18:01:17 GMT Lines: 31 Status: O X-Status: In article <43562@mindlink.bc.ca> Joe Moulins, Joe_Moulins@mindlink.bc.ca writes: > > > How do you do it? > > -- One of the things to keep in mind with attracting butterflies is that many are species-specific. That is they will only alight on a particular species or genus of plants. Eg. the cabbage looper butterfly lays eggs on broccoli, cabbage, etc; monarchs lay eggs on milkweeds, etc. You may be able to draw in many butterflies with zinnias and verbenas, but you may not provide their larvae with food, unless you pay attention to their particular requirements. So when you plant a garden to attract butterflies, pay close attention to include as many native plants as possible. This will insure you provide food for both the adults and the larvae. Also you may want to wait until late spring to clean up the butterfly garden. Many insects overwinter in last season's plant material. Lastly, many butterflies are attracted to overripe bananas. You can mush one on a plate and see what it attracts! You've probably also noticed that butterflies drink from wet soil. A good butterfly watering apparatus consists of a large flat bowl filled with sand and then moistened with water. Robert Klebba USDA zone 4 Nicolet Instrument Corp. Madison, WI, USA "Submit to Barney" From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!newserve!sarah!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!dianab Wed May 4 11:59:16 EDT 1994 Article: 31465 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!newserve!sarah!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!dianab From: dianab@pixel.sybase.com (Diana Barrett) Subject: Re: Attracting Butterflies Message-ID: Sender: dianab@pixel (Diana Barrett) Organization: Sybase, Inc. References: <2pm549$h86@morrow.stanford.edu> Distribution: usa Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 19:23:42 GMT Lines: 26 Status: O X-Status: In article <2pm549$h86@morrow.stanford.edu>, MA.TLM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Tracy Lee Murphy) writes: |> > |> >> How do you do it? |> > |> >>-- |> >> Joe Moulins |> >> Vancouver, British Columbia |> >> Canada |> |> Joe: |> |> Try to find out what local butterflies lay their eggs on. I'm here |> in Northern California and got many tips from a native seed company |> (Lerner Seeds in Bolinas) and last summer we had local and |> endangered butterflies in our garden. It's quite a blast knowing |> that we not only have a beautiful garden, but that we're helping the |> local ecology! |> |> --tracy |> berkeley, ca I'll bet if you call Leslie Saul at the Insect Zoo at the San Francisco Zoo, she could either answer your questions or at least point you in the direction of some useful literature. Diana From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!agate!ames!sgi!cdp!danwinter Wed May 4 12:03:36 EDT 1994 Article: 31109 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!msuinfo!agate!ames!sgi!cdp!danwinter From: danwinter@igc.apc.org (Dan Winter) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Soil Remineralization Forum Message-ID: <1453300624@cdp> Date: 28 Apr 94 01:05:00 GMT Sender: Notesfile to Usenet Gateway Lines: 152 Status: O X-Status: From: Dan Winter /* SOIL REMINERALIZATION & SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE */ /* written 4pm 4/26/94 by David Yarrow in en.agriculture */ For Immediate Release Forum Soil Remineralization and Sustainable Agriculture SILVER SPRING, MARYLAND, APRIL 14, 1994 -- An invitation has been issued to join a one-day forum to explore the potential of soil remineralization for sustainable agriculture. The Forum will be held on May 24, 1994 (with a dinner the evening of May 23) at the USDA, Agricultural Research Service Center, Beltsville, Maryland. Natural stone and aggregate materials and fines produced from crushed stone, sand and gravel contain a broad spectrum of minerals and trace elements that can be applied to soils. Potential benefits are increased yields and long term soil fertility that is sustainable and ecologically sound. There is also a potential for pest control, co-utilization with sewage sludge or wastewater technologies, bioremediation of soils and other areas of sustainable development. The effect on nutritional content of re mineralized crops is an important factor in the examination of the value of remineralization. The main emphasis of the one-day Forum will be on sustainable agriculture. These issues should greatly interest all those concerned with environmental and economic sustainability, especially for agriculture and forestry, creating long term soil fertility and enhancing the nutritional content of food. The Forum will take a look at the results of remineralization around the world, as well as prior and current research. The diverse audience will also explore its future potential, and the possibility of forming partnerships involving government, industry, farmers, and universiti es which will contribute to future exploration of remineralization and sustainability. The effects on soils and plants will be examined along with effects on human nutrition. Perspectives on soil remineralization will come from those that have advocated remineralization; the aggregate and stone industries, the U.S. Department of Agriculture, and the U.S. Bureau of Mines. Speakers will come from the fields of agriculture, geology, forestry, nutrition, and the environment. Presenters will include: * Mr. Greg Watson, Northeast Director, Nature Conservancy * Dr. Robert Bruck, State University, North Carolina * Dr. William Fyfe, Pres., International Union of Geological Sciences * Dr. Bernadette Marriott, National Research Council The Forum is being hosted by the U.S. Department of Agriculture/ Agricultural Research Service, U.S. Bureau of Mines, National Stone Association, and National Aggregates Association. For registration, contact Engineering Division of National Aggregates Association, 900 Spring Street, Silver Spring, MD 20910; 301-587-1400, Fax: 301-585-4219. The Forum will be held in the main auditorium, Building 003, on the west side of US Route 1 just north of the Capital Beltway (I-95) on Circle Drive at the Beltsville Agricultural Research Center. The dinner the evening before (and lodging if needed) will be held at the nearby Holiday Inn, College Park, also located on the west side of US Route 1 at 10000 Baltimore Blvd. Phone 301-345-6700 for reservations. Conference sponsors are: U. S. Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service Dr. Ron Korcak Bldg. 004, Room 119, BARC-West, Beltsville, MD 20705 U. S. Bureau of Mines Dr. Aldo Barsotti 810 7th Street, N.W., Washington, DC 20241 National Aggregates Association Mr. Richard Meininger 900 Spring Street, Silver Spring, MD 20910 National Stone Association Mr. Larry Quinlivan, Mr. Charles A. Pryor, Jr. 1415 Elliot Place, NW, Washington, DC 20007 Workshop Agenda Forum on Soil Remineralization Monday, May 23, 1994 Building 003, USDA/ARS Noon to 5:00 p.m. - Poster Set-Up 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. Registration, Holiday Inn, 10000 Baltimore Blvd. 7:00 p.m. Buffet Dinner at Holiday Inn Guest Speaker - Mr Greg Watson, The Nature Conservancy, Boston, MA Tuesday, May 24, 1994 Auditorium, Bldg 003, USDA/ARS, Beltsville, Maryland 8:00 - 10:00 a.m. Session I Soil Remineralization - An Overview Moderator - Dr. Ron Korcak 8:00 Welcome 8:10 - 8:20 Goals of the Workshop Dr. Ron Korcak Fruit Lab., USDA/ARS, Beltsville, MD 8:20 - 8:50 Soil Remineralization Around the World Ms. Joanna Campe Editor, Remineralize the Earth, Northampton, MA 8:50 - 9:05 The Aggregates Industry Mr. Rick Meininger Vice Pres. of Research, National Aggregates Asso., Silver Spring, MD 9:05 - 9:20 Industry/Association Interactions Mr. Robert Able Chair, Remineralization Task Force, NAA, Collins, NY 10:00 - 10:30 Break 10:30 - Noon Session II Remineralization in Agriculture & Forestry Moderator: Mr. Rick Meininger 10:30 - 10:45 Soil/Plant Interactions Dr. Ron Korcak USDA/ARS Fruit Lab, Beltsville, MD 10:45 - 11:10 Use of Mega Industrial Byproducts in Remineralization Dr. William Fyfe Dept. of Geology, Univ. Western Ontario, London, Ontario 11:10 - 11:35 Soil Remineralization and Forestry Dr. Robert Bruck Office of Outreach & Extension, NC State University, Raleigh, NC 11:35 - Noon Sustainability: A Geologists Perspective Dr. Ward Chesworth Land Resource Sci. Dept., Univ. of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario Noon Lunch 1:15 - 3:00 p.m. Session III Diversity and Remineralization Moderator: Mr. Larry Quinlivan 1:15 - 1:40 Effects of Rock Dust on Soil Microbiology & Plant Nutrition Dr. David Miller Biology Department, Oberlin College, Ohio 1:40 - 2:05 Microbial Realm in Relation to Rock Powder Blends Mr. Bruce Tainio Tainio Techniques & Technologies, Cheney, Washington 2:05 - 2:30 Potential Benefit of Soil Remineralization: Selenium in Human Nutrition as a Model Dr. Orville Levander Vitamin & Mineral Nutrition Lab, Beltsville, MD 2:30 - 2:55 Geophagy and Human Nutrition Dr. Bernadette Marriott National Academy of Sciences, Washington, DC 3:00 - 4:00 p.m. Break & Posters Session IV Posters - Case Histories 4:00 - 5:00 Session V Conference Synopsis Moderator: Dr. Aldo Barsotti 4:00 - 4:20 Synopsis & Needs - An Industry Perspective Mr.Jim Schmitt Granite Rock Co., Watsonville, CA 4:20 - 4:40 Research Needs Dr. W. D. Kemper National Program Staff, USDA/ARS, Beltsville, MD 4:40 - 5:00 General Questions and Answers 5:15 - 6:15 Planning Task Group and Speakers + - - - - - - - - C O M M E N T A R Y- - - - - - - - - - - + The impetus which gave rise to this Forum was a 30-page proposal I prepared in June 1992 for Mr. Robert Able of Gernatt Gravel Co., largest gravel producer in NYS. Mr. Able presented the proposal to the National Aggregates Assoc., which enthusiastically adopted it. Then the USDA, Bureau of Mines, National Stone Assoc. got excited and signed on to the concept. So, two years later will see the first national level conference on the use of finely ground rock powders as an amendment to regenerate worn out farm and forest soils. For the first time a gathering of PhD's, bureaucrats, industry reps, and eco-activists will review the existing information on this essential bioremediation process and consider the next steps for its broad scale application to the environment. Unfortunately I won't be there. In August 1992 I was electrocuted by 6000 volts and fell 15 feet to break my back. Totally broke, confined to bed and wheelchair, consigned to a medical trash can, and in daily pain, I can't attend to see what will become of my initiative. + - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - + -- for a green and peaceful planet, David Yarrow, turtle from Salt Lake 1227 Dorset St., So. Burlington, VT 05403; 802-865-1218 "be earthwise, not clockwise" From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!news.doit.wisc.edu!news Wed May 4 12:05:30 EDT 1994 Article: 31171 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: MULROY@EPIDAT.EPI.WISC.EDU (Bob Mulroy) Newsgroups: wi.madison.general,rec.gardens Subject: University houses community gardens Date: 29 Apr 1994 21:47:16 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin/Sleep Research Lab Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2prv94$80e@news.doit.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: epidat.epi.wisc.edu X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 Status: O X-Status: I am about to blow the lid off the best kept secret in Madison: You can rent a 25 x 30 plot for only 10 dollars per year. We still have quite a few spaces so please call me if you're interested. Bob Mulroy, A keen gardner, decent dad/mom, Dir. of the above org'd lab. 9-A University Houses, Madison WI 53705. (608) 233-4672 Bob in '96!!! --------------------- Your favorite diclaimer here--------------------- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!leppik Wed May 4 12:07:19 EDT 1994 Article: 31363 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!leppik From: leppik@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (leppik peter) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Plants By Mail FAQ Date: 1 May 1994 13:44:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 869 Message-ID: <2q0bn7$idu@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.cso.uiuc.edu Status: O X-Status: Plants By Mail FAQ by Peter Leppik p-leppi@uiuc.edu This document is intended to introduce readers to the world of buying plants by mail order; and also to serve as a central clearinghouse for information about contacting various mail order plant houses. I make no claims about being more informed on this topic than your average Joe, but I saw the need, and I'm willing to put forth the effort to compile and maintain this. History: Updated: 4/30/94 Added more catalogs, and updated the information on some others. I expanded the information sections, and added something about What To Do When Your Order Arrives, in response to a number of messages in rec.gardens from astonished people who received bare- root plants. I also removed the ROpinionsS sections on those companies from which I have not ordered anything, and nobody has send me feedback; just so I donUt try to read too much into just a catalog. Many typos fixed (I ran it through a spell-checker) Originally Created: 3/17/94 (late at night) Contents: I. Introduction II. But First, A Word From Our Lawyers III. How To Tell a Good Company from a Bad One (or: Things To Look For Before Taking the Plunge) IV. What To Do When Your Order Arrives (or: OhMyGawd! ThereUs No DIRT With These Plants!) V. Which Catalog To Order From VI. Mail Order Houses, How to Contact Them, and My Opinions Thereof VII. But Before We Go.... I. Introduction It seems that one of the most common article titles in rec.gardens is, "How can I reach XYZZY?" or, "The Plugh company sent me a catalog. Are they any good?" I hope to be able to answer some of these questions in a reasonably definitive answer (the first is easy, the second harder), and provide the neophyte with some introduction to buying plants by mail. My experience in this area has been short, but intense. After finally moving from a small condo into a real house (with a YARD and a GARDEN even!), one of my first projects was to begin widespread replanting of the yard (which is mostly boring grass, or very ugly hybrid poplars). To do that, last Fall, I began ordering large numbers of bulbs and plants from a number of mail-order houses. Some were good, some were bad, and I learned a lot about what to look for and what to avoid. Since the last version, I have received a number of shipments that were ordered last fall, and I can now offer better opinions on some of the companies listed herein. I welcome any and all comments. Send them to my E-mail address above. If there is some catalog not covered here which you think should be, by all means let me know. At the end of this document, there is a URL address where you can find an HTTP version of this FAQ. If you donUt know what HTTP is, donUt sweat it. If you do, then you can get this FAQ there. I hope to add a nifty Rpoint- and-shootS interface for sending me FAQ comments through Mosaic. WeUll see how my time goes. II. But First, A Word From Our Lawyers All opinions in this document are the opinions of the author, unless otherwise noted. The author is well-known for his arbitrary and capricious judgments, and cannot be held liable for anything he says herein. Besides, the author is a poor grad student, and suing him is like trying to squeeze blood from a rock. III. How To Tell a Good Company from a Bad One (or: Things To Look For Before Taking the Plunge) If you are like me, you probably have a dozen or two catalogs from various places, some fancy, others plain, and you're wondering who to order from and how to tell the difference between a place that really cares, and a place that is just trying to unload some poor, pathetic bits of green stuff on The Gullible Majority. In this section, I will outline what I think a reputable mail order company should do, and what you should consider before buying a plant sight-unseen. What a Reputable Mail-Order Company Will Do 1) Every perennial in the catalog should have a clearly indicated hardiness range. That is, for every perennial (anything you expect to last more than one year) should have indicated which USDA hardiness zones it will survive in. Simple adjectives like "hardy," or "tender," are NOT sufficient. Perhaps I am biased, being a Minnesota native currently living in Illinois, but I have seen too many catalogs which do not include this crucial information. Without knowing this, it is too easy to buy plants that won't survive in your climate. This also includes those of you who live in places like Southern California, where it never gets cold, since some plants require a period of cold temperatures every year in order to survive/bloom/etc. 2) Every plant should have its botanical (scientific) name listed. Of course, this doesn't count for things like roses or tomatoes, which everybody knows what that are. This may sound picky, but think about it: if you ever want to get information on this plant from some other source, and they use their own name, you might have a devil of a time figuring out how to get information. A plant's botanical name is unique. I have seen places that will take a standard variety of some plant, come up with a flashy (trademarked) name, and sell it as something special. Needless to say, this is dishonest. 3) Information on the habitat requirements should be easy to find. By this, I mean answers to questions like, how much sun does it need, how much water, and so forth. Nearly every catalog has this, but if you see one that doesn't, stay away. 4) A good company will have a horticulturist on staff you can call, and provide the phone number in a prominent place in their catalog. This can be priceless if you need to know a specific answer about some plant or another. Some catalogs have a horticulturist, but only one phone number (i.e. they donUt have a separate order line), so donUt take the lack of a RHorticultural InformationS phone number to mean a lack of horticultural information. Finally, something that you should probably ignore: 5) Every mail order catalog that I've seen offers some sort of guarantee. This should NOT be a factor in deciding where to buy from. After all, what good does it do if they replace a plant that died because you can't grow oranges in Alaska? The replacement will just die, too, and you'll spend twice as much time on a plant that was Never Meant To Be. Besides, these places know that 95% of all gardeners will never take advantage of their guarantee even if the plants do die. Some people have even noted an inverse relation between the quality of the guarantee and the quality of the plants: the louder the company proclaims its RFOOLPROOF 100% MONEY-BACK GUARANTEE,S the worse the plants are when they arrive. What To Consider Before Taking the Plunge Okay, so you've got your heart set on the beautiful Creeping Green Stuff. Before plunking your money and time on it (usually more time than money), you should stop and ask yourself a few questions: 1) Will it grow in my area? If they don't make it CLEAR (i.e. by telling you the hardiness zone), then avoid that plant, or buy it from somebody who will tell you. 2) Do I have a place to put it? It is very easy to get spring fever when all the catalogs start arriving midwinter, and wind up buying enough plants to cover every square inch of your yard two or three times over. Make sure you have a specific place for each and every plant you order, and make sure you will have the time to plant it when it arrives. Keep in mind that you will probably have to plant them soon after they arrive, and you might not be able to control the exact day they arrive. Thus, ordering 150 bushes for a new hedge from one place, all of which will arrive via UPS on the same day and need to be planted immediately, is probably not a good idea. Believe me. 3) Will it really look the way I want it to? Keep in mind that the pictures in the catalogs are designed to sell plants, and the plants in your garden will generally not look quite as nice. I have seen a lot of comments from people in rec.gardens about the rose Blue Girl as a particular offender in this respect. Also keep in mind that illustrations (as opposed to photographs) can be very deceptive, too. IV. What To Do When Your Order Arrives (or: OhMyGawd! ThereUs No DIRT With These Plants!) The most important thing to do when your order arrives is DONUT PANIC! Good. Take a few deep breaths. The reason your roses/trees/whatever arrived without any dirt is not because the company sent you dead plants. Shipping woody plants without dirt (Rbare-rootS) is standard, and even good. First, it does not harm the plants any, as long as the company has taken steps to ensure that the roots donUt dry out. Usually, this involves dipping the roots in some sort of stuff that helps retain moisture. Second, shipping plants bare-root helps keep shipping costs down. Shipping with dirt could easily double or triple the weight of the plant when shipped, and make it that much more expensive to buy. Finally, shipping plants bare-root helps prevent the spread of pests that live in the soil (like the Japanese beetle). In fact, some states REQUIRE that plants be shipped into the state bare-root, unless the plants had been grown in a greenhouse under controlled conditions. Needless to say, unless youUre buying small seedlings, it would be expensive for a company to grow all their stock in greenhouses. Generally, you will get a little booklet with your order explaining how to plant your new plants. Usually, the first thing to do (with bare root plants) is to stick them in a bucket of water for some time. You should do this as soon as they arrive. Then, dig a hole according to the booklet instructions, and plant those buggers. It may take some time for your new plants to leaf out, especially if theyUre dormant when shipped. Again, donUt panic. If you planted in the spring, donUt call the company to complain that the plants are dead until midsummer. TheyUll just tell you to wait, because sometimes the plants take a while to adjust to their new surroundings. V. Which Catalog To Order From If you are buying roses, you should certainly order from a catalog which specializes in roses. There are quite a few of these catalogs, and you will generally get better selection, quality, and price than you would from buying from a catalog which doesnUt specialize in roses. For some reason, this rule of thumb seems to be the other way around when buying bulbs. I have had the best experiences buying bulbs from White Flower Farms, which is generally an outstanding catalog, but they arenUt even remotely limited to bulbs. My worst experiences, on the other hand, were with places that sell only, or mainly bulbs. Go figure. At any rate, here is my personal list of picks and pans, from those companies IUve personally dealt with: Really Good Companies: White Flower Farms NorUEast Miniature Roses Heirloom Old Garden Roses GardenerUs Supply Company ShepherdUs Garden Seeds Companies To Avoid: Spring Hill Michigan Bulb Co. BreckUs Bulbs VI. Mail Order Houses, How to Contact Them, and My Opinions Thereof This section is really the meat of this FAQ. Here, I will list as many mail order houses as I can get catalogs for, how to contact them, and my impressions of them. If you're interested in a place that isn't listed here, by all means, ask them to put me on their list, and I'll include them in a future edition. For each company, I will list their name, mailing address, phone number, a general description of what they sell, and my opinions. Opinions are strictly mine, unless otherwise noted. I will not indicate an opinion unless I have actually ordered something from a company, unless the opinion is someone elseUs. ------ Antique Rose Emporium Route 5 Box 143 Brenham, TX 77833 Old garden roses. ------ Breck's Bulbs U.S. Reservation Center 6523 North Galena Rd. Peoria, IL 61632 Orders: (309) 689-3870 Breck's sells bulbs imported from Holland: tulips, crocuses, daffodils, etc. OPINION: Overall, I am not terribly impressed with Breck's. Their merchandise (contrary to the catalog hype) is not particularly premium, but their prices are higher than most places, even some places which have superior stock. They do not list hardiness for anything, though most of what they sell should do fine most places in the U.S. (they don't sell any of the really tender bulbs, like glads). You can do better elsewhere. Note that BreckUs Bulbs appears to be the same company, or closely associated with, Spring Hill, another company on my RAvoidS list. ------ Bridges Roses 2734 Toney Rd. Lawndale, NC 28090 Phone: (704) 538-9412 Fax: (704) 538-1521 Mostly miniature roses, and a few hybrid teas. ------ C.W.S. Roses 2232 Gale Ave. Coquitlam, BC V3K 2Y8 CANADA Miniature Roses. ------ Carlton Rose Nurseries P.O. Box 366 Carlton, OR 97111 Phone: (503) 852-7135 Roses. ------ ChambleeUs Rose Nursery 10926 US Hwy. 69 N Tyler, TX 75706-8742 Phone: 1-800-256-7673 Fax: (903) 882-3597 Miniature roses, and old garden roses. ------ Flowers Tn Friends Miniature Roses 9590 100th St SE Alto, MI 49302 Phone: (616) 891-1226 Miniature roses. ------ Four Seasons Nursery Dept. 9 1706 Morrissey Dr. Bloomington, IL 61704 Orders: (309) 663-9551 Four Seasons sells a wide variety of nursery stock, like bushes, trees, and bulbs. They also have a limited selection of garden supplies. ------ Fungi Perfecti PO Box 7634 Olympia, WA 98507 Phone: (206) 426-9292 Fax: (206) 426-9377 Fungi Perfecti sells fungus. Thanks to Kris Carroll (kcarrol@u.washington.edu) for bringing this to my attention. ------ GardenerUs Eden P.O. Box 7307 San Francisco, CA 94120-7307 Orders: 1-800-822-9600 Customer Service: 1-800-822-1214 Fax: (415) 421-5153 Mostly upscale garden-stuff, like furniture, birdhouses, and so forth. No plants to speak of. ------ GardenerUs Supply Co. 128 Intervale Rd. Burlington, VT 05401 Orders/Customer Service: (802) 863-1700 TDD: (802) 660-3530 Fax: (802) 660-4600 All kinds of gardening supplies, and a few plants. OPINION: I have had good experiences with this company. Their products appear to be of a uniformly high quality, and a lot of people in rec.gardens swear by them. At least one of their employees reads this newsgroup, so you may be able to get answers Rfrom the horseUs mouth,S if you know who to ask. If anybody can supply me with his E-mail address, I would appreciate it (for future editions). ------ Gardens Alive 5100 Schenley Place Lawrenceburg, IN 47025 Orders: (812) 537-8650 Fax: (812) 537-5108 Organic gardening supplies. ------ Giles RamblinU Roses 2968 SR 710 Okeechobee, FL 34974 Phone: (813) 763-6611 Roses. ------ Gurney's 110 Capital St. Yankton, SD 57079 Orders: (605) 665-1930 Customer Assistance: (605) 665-1671 Gurney's sells nearly everything under the sun: seeds, shrubs, trees, bulbs, garden supplies, you name it, and they probably sell it. OPINION: I ordered seeds, bushes, and trees from GurneyUs this year. The quality was generally proportional to the price paid: some things are really good, but the el-cheapo specials sometimes left something to be desired. Their horticultural staff appears knowledgeable, and certainly friendly. Susan Profit (tinne@isumataq.eskimo.com) reports that she had some bad experiences with GurneyUs a number of years ago, relating to shipping and billing screw-ups. She hasnUt ordered from them since, so I donUt know if this is an isolated incident, or the result of generally bad management. Any comments on this would be greatly appreciated. ------ Hardy Roses for the North Box 2048 Grand Forks, BC V0H 1H0 CANADA Box 273 Danville, WA 99121-0273 Fax: (604) 442-2766 Own-Root (not grafted) roses. ------ Heirloom Old Garden Roses 24062 NE Riverside Dr. St. Paul, OR 91737 Orders: (503) 538-1576 This is a catalog of "old" roses: not a hybrid tea to be found. If you're looking for english or unusual roses, this is the place to go. OPINION: If you are a rose grower, and you are still growing hybrid teas, this catalog will convert you. Many of the old roses offered here are just as good, if not better than, the more common modern roses. The catalog offers a lot of information about a zillion different roses, including hardiness, and (my favorite) lists of roses well-suited for particular uses (i.e. roses for growing over trellises, roses for scent, etc.). Their stock is first-rate, and all grown on its own roots, so there are no bud unions to worry about. There is no separate phone number for questions, but I found the people answering the phone to be knowledgeable and helpful. Two thumbs up. Note that they charge $5 for the catalog, but once you're on their mailing list (i.e. after you buy something), they'll send it free. ------ Henry FieldUs 415 North Burnett Shenandoah, IA 51602 Orders: (605) 665-9391 Fax: (605) 665-2601 Customer Service: (605) 665-4491 A general seeds-and-stuff catalog. They sell seeds, plants, and bulbs. ------ Hidden Garden Nursery 13515 SE Briggs Milwaukie, OR 97222-6117 Miniature roses. ------ Holland Bulb Farms 423 Borad St. P.O. Box 220 Tatamy PA 18085-0220 Orders: 1-800-283-5082 Another bulb catalog. ------ Hortico 723 Robson Rd. Waterton, Ontario L0R 2H1 CANADA Phone: (905) 689-6984 or (905) 689-3002 Fax: (905) 689-6566 Roses. Catalog costs $3. ------ Jackson & Perkins P.O. Box 1028 Medford, OR 97501 Orders: 1-800-292-4769 J&P actually publishes more different catalogs than you can shake a stick at. They are highly respected, though IUve never ordered anything from them. ------ J. W. Jung Seed & Nursery 335 S. High St. Randolph, WI 53957-0001 Orders: 1-800-247-JUNG Customer Service: 1-800-297-3123 Jung's sells seeds, nursery stock, a few bulbs, and supplies ------ Justice Miniature Roses 5947 SW Kahle Rd. Wilsonville, OR 97070 Phone: (503) 682-2370 Miniature Roses. ------ Lilypons Water Gardens Box 10 Lilypons, MD 21717-0010 Pond stuff. Thanks to Bill Stoffel (stoffel@oasys.dt.navy.mil) for this address. ------ McDanielUs Miniature Roses 7523 Zemco St. Lemon Grove, CA 91945 Miniature roses. ------ Michigan Bulb Co. 1950 Waldorf NW Grad Rapids, MI 49550-0500 Michigan Bulb Company sells bulbs, perennials, and other assorted plants. OPINION: This catalog is filled with the kind of BREATHLESS PROSE and AMAZING BARGAINS designed to stampede the gardener into making impulse purchases. Their prices are cheap, but selection is limited, and quality was very mediocre. In addition, I was unable to find a phone number anywhere in the catalog--this could be a real problem, if you have problems with your order. To their credit, they generally include hardiness information. On the other hand, they also sell the "Blue Girl" rose, which is an automatic two demerits in my book. Go elsewhere. ------ Michigan Miniature Roses 45951 Hull Rd. Belleville, MI 48111 Phone: (313) 699-6698 Miniature Roses. ------ Mini Rose Garden 1043 Mini-Rose Bldg. Cross Hill, SC 29332 Miniature Roses. ------ National Arbor Day Foundation 100 Arbor Ave. Nebraska City, NE 68410 All kinds of trees OPINION: The National Arbor Day Foundation is a nonprofit organization which promotes the planting of trees. They run frequent membership blitzes where they offer to send you 10 free trees for joining. I did. You do get 10 free trees. TheyUre all seedlings (no real surprise), but it can be hard to tell them apart, since they are labeled with a spot of colored paint which is hard to see. Their main method of raising funds appears to be selling trees, of which they have a good selection and reasonable prices. Might be worth joining if you plan to plant a lot of trees, or believe in their cause. ------ Netherland Bulb Co. 13 McFadden Rd. Easton, PA 18042-9078 Orders: 1-800-788-8547 Customer Assistance: (610) 253-8879 Netherland Bulb Co. sells bulbs and other plants grown from their roots. OPINION: Mostly big pictures and not much else, this catalog will entice the winter-weary gardener into buying lots and lots of colorful plants. Their prices are cheap, but their stock is mediocre, and selection is very limited. Hardiness information is nonexistent, though most of what they sell should do OK most places in the U.S. Unless you're really pressed for money, you can do better elsewhere--just keep in mind that you get what you pay for. Cate Williams (williams@ssnet.com) reports: I'd like to really say that Netherlands Bulbs is HORRIBLE! I got suckered by the prices, and ended up with a bunch of seriously diseased tulips -- so sick, that I can't plant any more in that bed for two years. N.B. is simply dangerous. My .02$. ------ New Holland Bulb Co. P.O. Box 335 Rockport, IL 62370-0335 Bulbs, and assorted perennials. Note the lack of a phone number, which could cause problems if you have difficulty with an order. ------ NorUEast Miniature Roses, Inc. P.O. Box 307 Rowley, MA 01969 Phone: (508) 948-7964 Orders: 1-800-426-6485 On the West Coast: NorUEast Miniature Roses, Inc. P.O. Box 473 Ontario, CA 91762 Phone: (909) 984-2223 Orders: 1-800-662-9669 A large selection of miniature roses, and some supplies for those who like to grow them (like miniature vases) OPINION: This company is also on my RGood-GuysS list. Their prices are quite reasonable, and their stock is high quality. Their catalog has a photo of many of the offerings. If you are into miniature roses (or would like to be), this is the catalog to get. ------ Oregon Miniature Roses 8285 SW 185th Ave. Beaverton, OR 97007 Miniature roses. ------ Park Seed Co. Cokesbury Rd. Greenwood, SC 29647-0001 Orders: (803) 223-7333 Customer Service: (803) 941-4480 Park Seed sells seeds, a few smaller plants, some bulbs, and garden supplies Susan Profit (tinne@isumataq.eskimo.com) reports: The Washington State Attorney General's office considers them to be one of the top ten mail order companies in the country. They will refund money for just about any reason, they have always been unfailingly courteous when I have called, they are knowledgeable, and will get more information for you if they do not have it on hand. The one person I know that had a customer dispute with them, was very satisfied with how they handled it, it turned out to be a quarantined plans she had ordered. They found her a local nursery that carried the plant, and had them reserve one for her, refunded her money, and apologized for the inexperienced phone trainee that had taken her order. They are always very friendly, and making comments like, oh that's a nice variety. I have never heard them say anything bad about any other company, and they are a marvel of customer appreciation. When my stepfather retired as head of the State Capitol grounds after twenty years, the company sent him a letter of appreciation for his support over the years. And he of course, had nothing but great things to say of them, based on over thirty five years of professional contact. ------ Quality Dutch Bulbs P.O. Box 225 50 Lake Dr. Hillsdale, NJ 07642-0225 Phone: (215) 253-9570 Orders: 1-800-755-2852 Bulbs (need I say more?). ------ Roses Unlimited Rt. 1 Box 587 Laurens, SC 29360 Phone: (803) 682-9112 Roses. ------ Sequoia Nursery/Moore Miniature Roses 2519 E. Noble Visalia, CA 93292 Phone: (209) 732-0190 Miniature Roses. ------ Shepherd's Garden Seeds 30 Irene St. Torrington, CT 06790 Orders: East (203) 482-3638 West (408) 335-6910 Customer Service: (203) 482-3638 Horticultural Help: (408) 335-6910 Shepherd's sells mostly seeds, but also a few plants, and some kitchen and garden supplies. OPINION: The stylish illustrations in this catalog give it a distinctly yuppie feel, but this is a good catalog nevertheless. They have a number of varieties that are hard to find elsewhere (a whole PAGE of ornamental sunflowers!), and a wealth of useful horticultural information. My order arrived promptly, in good order, and appears to be high quality (it is still a little soon for things to be sprouting around here, though). Prices are a little above average, but seeds are cheap no matter how you slice it. ------ Smith & Hawken Two Arbor Lane P.O. Box 6900 Florence, KY 41022-6900 Smith & Hawken sells mostly supplies and yard stuff, but also some seeds and live plants. ------ Spring Hill Mail Order Reservation Center 6523 North Galena Rd. P.O. Box 1758 Peoria, IL 61656-1758 Orders: (309) 689-3800 Customer Service: (309) 689-3849 Spring Hill sells just about any kind of plant that catches their fancy. OPINION: Spring Hill is one of these places that is in the business of dumping cheap, inappropriate merchandise on unsuspecting customers. The quality of their merchandise is mediocre, even though the prices are about average. The provide little or no hardiness information, which is especially troublesome considering that they sell some plants (like carnations) for outdoor planting, even though they will not survive the winter in large portions of the U.S. Furthermore, if you ever buy anything from Spring Hill, you will be on their mailing list but good. I have received no less than four different catalogs from them in the last two months (not even counting the large number of "special offers" which seem to arrive about once a week, and at least one telemarketing call). Avoid this company like the plague. Note that Spring Hill appears to be the same company, or closely associated with, BreckUs Bulbs, another company on my RAvoidS list. ------ Stark Brothers P.O. Box 10 Louisiana, MO 63353-0010 Orders: 1-800-325-4180 Customer Service: 1-800-478-2759 Stark Brothers sells almost exclusively fruit trees, and a few ornamentals. ------ TaylorUs Roses P.O. Box 11272 Chicksaw, AL 36671-0272 Phone: (205) 456-7753 Miniature roses. ------ Texas Mini Roses P.O. Box 267 Denton, TX 76202 Phone: (817) 566-3034 Miniature roses. ------ Tiny Petals Miniature Rose Nursery 483 Minot Ave. Chula Vista CA 91910 Phone: (619) 422-0385 Miniature roses. ------ Trophy Roses, LTD 1308 N. Kennicott Ave. Arlington Heights, IL 60004 Orders/Catalogs: (708) 253-0998 Fax: (708) 253-0738 Roses. ------ White Flower Farm Litchfield, CT 06759-0050 Orders: (203) 496-9600 White Flower Farm sells just about every kind of ornamental plant that one might reasonably want to grow in North America. OPINION: I will state my bias right up front: White Flower Farm is far and away my favorite catalog. They have a reputation for being "upscale," but their prices are only slightly above average. Their catalog offers a wealth of useful horticultural information, along with interesting commentary about each and every plant. All the information you need to know (hardiness, planting requirements, light requirements, etc.) is compiled in a single useful index, as well as being stated with the description of each plant. The catalog is organized alphabetically by genus name, so in addition to being fun to read (and look at the pictures), it makes a very useful reference. Of course, the catalog is only secondary to the merchandise. Fortunately, their produce more than lives up to the high standards set by the catalog: it is absolutely first rate. When I was buying daylillies, crocuses, and daffodils from White Flower Farm and other catalogs, the bulbs or roots from White Flower were often more than twice the size of the ones from other vendors, and at a comparable price. Even if you never buy anything from White Flower Farm, you should get their catalog as a reference, since it is almost as good as buying a book on ornamental plants, but a whole lot cheaper. ----- VII. But Before We Go.... I hope this FAQ has been useful. I also hope it has been accurate. If you find any mistakes, or have any comments, please send me E-mail at the address listed at the top of the file. Any suggestions for improving future editions will be happily accepted, and possibly even acted upon. This FAQ is also available via the World Wide Web. The URL is: http://jean-luc.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/PeterL/PBM-FAQ.html I will try to get the new edition up as soon as I can. If it isnUt updated within a few days, send me mail and IUll get to it. When I have the time, I hope to install a Mosaic page that will allow you to send me new catalogs, suggestions, etc. about the FAQ automagically. Look for it.... -- Peter Leppik-- p-leppi@uiuc.edu Shunned by Ducks http://jean-luc.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/PeterL/HOME.html From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!math.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!ddsw1!panix!not-for-mail Wed May 4 12:17:54 EDT 1994 Article: 31246 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!math.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!ddsw1!panix!not-for-mail From: kgs@panix.com (Karen G. Schneider) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: North Jersey Rose Society mtg 5/14/94 Date: 2 May 1994 08:42:00 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Lines: 16 Message-ID: <2q2seo$r0f@panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com Keywords: north jersey rose Status: O X-Status: The North Jersey Rose Society will meet Saturday, May 14, 1994 at Union Congregational Church, 176 Cooper Ave., Montclair NJ, at 1:30 p.m. The program is "Let's Plant a Rose," a humorous but factual look at rose-planting. A social hour will follow. For more information on the North Jersey Rose Society, contact Charles Lajeskie, 201-472-2792. -- Karen G. Schneider kgs@panix.com * * * "It is better to ask for forgiveness * * Than permission." * From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!efarrell@ossi.com Wed May 4 12:21:03 EDT 1994 Article: 31320 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!news.ossi.com!efarrell@ossi.com From: efarrell@ossi.com (Liz Farrell) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: How unhealthful is vermiculite? Date: 2 May 1994 17:47:19 GMT Organization: Fujitsu Open Systems Solutions, Inc. Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com> Reply-To: efarrell@ossi.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lobos.ossi.com Status: O X-Status: There is a warning on my bag of vermiculite that says it can cause cancer. Anybody know anything more specific? Like what the risk really is, and why? Thanks in advance! Liz Farrell (efarrell@ossi.com) From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!news1.boi.hp.com!ahill Wed May 4 12:22:01 EDT 1994 Article: 31336 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-pcd!news1.boi.hp.com!ahill From: ahill@boi.hp.com (Andy Hill) Subject: Re: How unhealthful is vermiculite? Sender: news@boi.hp.com (Boise Site News Server) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 May 1994 22:42:56 GMT Reply-To: ahill@boi.hp.com References: <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hpbsl202.boi.hp.com Organization: LaserJets by Bill & Dave X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0.11] Lines: 9 Status: O X-Status: Liz Farrell (efarrell@ossi.com) wrote: > There is a warning on my bag of vermiculite > that says it can cause cancer. Anybody know > anything more specific? Like what the risk > really is, and why? > I'm pretty sure that it's the same sort of problem as asbestos. Don't breathe the dust and you should be OK. If you're going to be messing with a lot of it, a dust mask would probably be a reasonable precaution. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl2.crl.com!not-for-mail Wed May 4 12:22:45 EDT 1994 Article: 31463 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!decwrl!nntp.crl.com!crl2.crl.com!not-for-mail From: hempster@crl.com (Alan Silverman) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: How unhealthful is vermiculite? Date: 3 May 1994 10:08:23 -0700 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [login: guest] Lines: 22 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2q60e7$o35@crl2.crl.com> References: <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl2.crl.com Status: O X-Status: In article <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com> efarrell@ossi.com writes: > >There is a warning on my bag of vermiculite >that says it can cause cancer. Anybody know >anything more specific? Like what the risk >really is, and why? > >Thanks in advance! >Liz Farrell >(efarrell@ossi.com) The dust is dangerous. You should use it with care. It's best to be dampened before spreading it around. -alan -- Hemp Products and Services Got It Covered P.O.Box 14627 Santa Rosa, CA 95402 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!ukma!hookup!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail Wed May 4 12:22:58 EDT 1994 Article: 31478 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!ukma!hookup!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!hp81.prod.aol.net!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: vshea@aol.com (VShea) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: How unhealthful is vermiculite? Date: 3 May 1994 16:00:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 12 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2q6ag2$79s@search01.news.aol.com> References: <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: In article <2q3eb8$8ds@news.ossi.com>, efarrell@ossi.com (Liz Farrell) writes: >>There is a warning on my bag of vermiculite that says it can cause cancer. Anybody know anything more specific? Like what the risk really is, and why?<< I don't know about vermiculite specifically. But I do know that here in California, *sand*, as in beach sand sold for kids' sandboxes, is labeled as a possible carcinogen. It's kind of ridiculous. Anyway, IF the vermiculite is labeled based on the same reasoning, the idea is probably that breathing tons of dust might not be good for your lungs. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!not-for-mail Wed May 4 12:25:03 EDT 1994 Article: 31335 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!mailer.acns.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!freenet3.scri.fsu.edu!not-for-mail From: tmegow@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu (Tom Megow) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Free ORGANIC GARDENING Magazines Date: 2 May 1994 18:13:15 -0400 Organization: Tallahassee Free-Net Lines: 6 Message-ID: <2q3ttr$1b6@freenet3.scri.fsu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: freenet3.scri.fsu.edu Status: O X-Status: : I have recently inhertited 20+ years of ORGANIC GARDENING magazine.The local library is not interested.They are free to any one or organization who wants them pick them here or arrange for shipping e-mail here tmegow@freenet.scri.fsu.ed From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!boulder!alumni!roadifer Wed May 4 12:26:07 EDT 1994 Article: 31309 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!tali.hsc.colorado.edu!boulder!alumni!roadifer From: roadifer@alumni.cs.Colorado.EDU (Mike Roadifer) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Electric, Rechargeable Lawnmowers Date: 2 May 1994 19:15:35 GMT Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2q3jgn$it5@lace.Colorado.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.cs.colorado.edu Status: O X-Status: Having just bought a house, with lawn, I now desperately need to buy a lawnmower, and was thinking a rechargeable one might be fun. If anyone has any experience with these, or knows of any reviews (either on the net, or in magazines) I would appreciate any information you could give me. Post or email me at roadifer@alumni.cs.colorado.edu or roadifer@ntia.its.bldrdoc.gov. Thanks for your help - mike From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!cs.umd.edu!ra!Eddie.Chang Thu May 5 22:14:40 EDT 1994 Article: 31626 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!cs.umd.edu!ra!Eddie.Chang From: echang@cbmse.nrl.navy.mil (Eddie Chang) Subject: Re: Chinese Vegetable Question Message-ID: X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@ra.nrl.navy.mil. Lines: 17 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[3268] Organization: nrl References: <2977151017.0.p00511@psilink.com> Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 20:37:50 GMT Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. Status: O X-Status: In article <2977151017.0.p00511@psilink.com> "Jim Chinnis" writes: > I am a Chinese food fan (home cooked when possible) and a veggie > gardener. On a trip last week through the mid-west US, I had lunch at > a mom-and-pop Chinese restaurant that served something called TONG SING > SAI. This was a green veggie that was stir fried in bean curd. IT WAS > WONDERFUL! I'm not sure of the spelling but the veggie sounds like "hollow veggie" a geen vegetable that can often be found in Asian food stores. It has hollow stems and is prized for its delicate flavor when stir-fried. The mandarin pronunciation (which often won't help you in stores or restaurants) is something like "K'ung Hsing T'sai". Bon Apetite echang@cbmse.nrl.navy.mil (eddie chang) Standard disclaimers apply. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!kao Thu May 5 22:16:26 EDT 1994 Article: 31640 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!kao From: kao@fc.hp.com (Ping-Hui Kao) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Chinese Vegetable Question Date: 5 May 1994 21:30:14 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2qboh6$vu@tadpole.fc.hp.com> References: <2977151017.0.p00511@psilink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpkao.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Status: O X-Status: : I'm not sure of the spelling but the veggie sounds like "hollow veggie" : a geen vegetable that can often be found in Asian food stores. It has : hollow stems and is prized for its delicate flavor when stir-fried. The : mandarin pronunciation (which often won't help you in stores or : restaurants) is something like "K'ung Hsing T'sai". Kung Hsing means "empty heart (inside)"; Tsai means "Veggie". "hollow veggie" is the right name for it. You're absolutely right -- it is one of greatest vegetables, and it is my favorite (Boy, I cannot wait for the supper). My wife is going to grow it this year in our new garden. It likes hot weather; so, we will see how it goes in Northern Colorado. Ping-Hui Kao kao@fc.hp.com From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Mon May 9 23:13:53 EDT 1994 Article: 31745 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: More vermicomposting ques From: jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.617.2817.0N429D25@granite.mn.org> Date: Thu, 5 May 94 00:15:00 +0600 Organization: Granite City Connection St. Cloud MN 612-654-8372 Lines: 64 Status: O X-Status: Subject: More vermicomposting questions April writes in May: T>1) I seem to have received a mixture of nightcrawlers and redworms, > instead of all redworms as promised by the company. Will this > make a huge difference? I know that they like different kinds > of substrate, but what if I offered them a mixture? (I'm not in the > mood to sort 500 worms now or ever) I know the feeling April. One of my mottos is to never count chickens, hatched or not. T>2) How much room do I need to provide per worm? (Say, worms/square inch) Since redworms and nightcrawlers do not live in the same habitat, you need to place the mixture in an environment where the nightcrawlers (lumbricus terrestris) can burrow in the native soil below. Most nightcrawlers, if they are so old and large that you can tell them from redworms, will be unable to excavate a new burrow. They typically grow a burrow from childhood and live in it all their life, shaving a little off the sides periodically as they mature. For an adult worm to create a new tunnel network when they are fat and lazy is asking a lot. But it can be done if your soil is soft, there is a good mulch layer above the soil that is kept undisturbed, and you provide plenty of moisture. Placing your mixture into an old compost mixed with peat and or shredded corrugated is a good mix. Then place a two inch layer of wet, fresh, horse manure (make sure not recently de-wormed!) and the red worms will come up to the top and the nightcrawlers will stay below to burrow. T>3) How fresh should the veggies be that I feed to them? If you are using redworms to cure compost, a process called vermistabilization, you should compost your table scraps first and feed the compost to the worms in thin layers when the compost is hot and active. If you are looking to have the worms *do it all*, a process called vermicomposting, then you can add fresh table scraps right to the worm beds. You need at least two parts bedding to one part table scraps, making sure to bury the scraps thoroughly. You can have upwards of 3,500 worms per cubic foot with a maximum of 7,000. The minimum is around 500. Do not feed the worms any more than they can eat in any given area in more than two weeks. Stated otherwise, it takes a pound of worms to eat a pound of daily feed. Bear in mind that you will also have to remove a pound per day of old worm castings too. This can be done either on a continuous basis from the bottom of the worm bed or periodically using a batch technique. I assume that you have Mary Appelhof's book, "Worms Eat My Garbage"..... Most of these answers are in her book. Lots of luck. It sounds like you are on your way to a successful earthworm culture. Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly ReSourceNet and GardenNet 612-654-8372, 656-0678 v.32bis jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * May 4th - Let me see.... Now how does that twit filter work? From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Mon May 9 23:14:37 EDT 1994 Article: 31746 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: manures From: jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.618.2817.0N429D26@granite.mn.org> Date: Thu, 5 May 94 00:16:00 +0600 Organization: Granite City Connection St. Cloud MN 612-654-8372 Lines: 28 Status: O X-Status: Subject: manures After some wonderful commentary about elephant and other manure: Someone with a mystery address writes: > Correct me if I'm wrong all you more knowledgeable farmers out there! >plants do not come in direct contact with it. If there are sawdust shavings as >one finds in horse manures, they will need an addition of lime to aid in their >breakdown and to aid the growing plant as decomposition takes up nitrogen. Well as a bug and worm farmer, I agree with all your points except the one about adding lime to the wood shaving material. Just nitrogen and water should de-compost the toughest of shavings. I have yet to see calcium carbonate (lime) do anything to aid the composting process. Maybe if you added a bit of lemon instead..... (g) Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly ReSourceNet and GardenNet 612-654-8372, 656-0678 v.32bis jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * May 4th - It can not be explained From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!wdl1!mail!are107.lds.loral.com!hahn Mon May 9 23:15:42 EDT 1994 Article: 31597 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!chpc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!convex!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!sgi!wdl1!mail!are107.lds.loral.com!hahn From: hahn@newshost.lds.loral.com (Karl Hahn) Subject: Re: Wood Ash Message-ID: <940504160816@are107.lds.loral.com> Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP Lines: 27 Sender: news@lds.loral.com Reply-To: hahn@lds.loral.com Organization: Loral Data Systems References: <2q87n0$csd@avdms8.msfc.nasa.gov> Date: Wed, 4 May 1994 21:08:16 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <2q87n0$csd@avdms8.msfc.nasa.gov> doug@cyclone.msfc.nasa.gov (Doug Rickman) writes: > The ash of hardwoods is basic (quite), lye can easily extracted by pouring water > through the ash and evaporating the water. The process was used in making lye > soap. Actually, what you get by dissolving wood ashes in water is potash, which is largely potassium carbonate. To get lye (potassium hydroxide), you need stir it with lime (calcium hydroxide), then filter off the calcium carbonate (chalk) that precipitates. Lime added to the brew of fat and ashes in water speeds the soap forming process by forming lye with the potash, making the solution more alkaline. Ashes are indeed alkaline, but less so than lime, which is again less alkaline than lye. Just a tidbit that probably belongs in sci.chem. -- | (V) | "Tiger gotta hunt. Bird gotta fly. | (^ (`> | Man gotta sit and wonder why, why, why. | ((\\__/ ) | Tiger gotta sleep. Bird gotta land. | (\\< ) der Nethahn | Man gotta tell himself he understand." | \< ) | | ( / | Kurt Vonnegut Jr. | | | | ^ | From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!facstaff.wisc.edu!jmicales Mon May 9 23:16:48 EDT 1994 Article: 31595 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!facstaff.wisc.edu!jmicales From: jmicales@facstaff.wisc.edu (Jessie Micales) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: composting Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 02:52:38 GMT Organization: Division of Information Technology Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: f181-132.net.wisc.edu Status: O X-Status: Is there a composting FAQ? Someone made it sound like it didn't contain too much information. I am a plant pathologist for the Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, WI (USA). In the upcoming year (or two???), our group may get some money for research into the composting of wood waste (ie. wood products, saw dust, wood chips, paper, etc.). I am trying to think of potential research topics in this area. From what I read in the area, much about composting is already known. Oftentimes it doesn't work, but that is usually due to poor aeration, temperature, bad carbon: nitrogen ratios, etc. What is left to explore? Any ideas?? Please reply via this newsgroup or E-mail to jmicales@facstaff.wisc.edu Thanks. Jessie Micales Research Plant Pathologist U.S. Forest Products Laboratory jmicales@facstaff.wisc.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!revcan!rubicon!webster Mon May 9 23:17:59 EDT 1994 Article: 31758 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!xanth.cs.odu.edu!news.larc.nasa.gov!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!revcan!rubicon!webster From: webster@rubicon.org (Charlie) Subject: Re: More vermicomposting questions References: <2q6cdh$s20@news.iastate.edu> Organization: The Rubicon Organisation Date: Thu, 5 May 1994 04:33:18 GMT Message-ID: <1994May5.043318.4160@rubicon.org> Lines: 28 Status: O X-Status: >1) I seem to have received a mixture of nightcrawlers and redworms, > instead of all redworms as promised by the company. Will this > make a huge difference? I know that they like different kinds > of substrate, but what if I offered them a mixture? (I'm not in the > mood to sort 500 worms now or ever) Big difference. Take the nightcrawlers back to the company and get your money back now, or let them loose in your (or a neighbouring) lawn. They will DIE (as is dead.dead.dead) in confinment. They like DEEP, LONG, tunnels, and don't adapt well to changes of address. Check out _Worms Eat My Garbage_, by Mary Appelhof (Chapter 5, p.22) if you don't believe me. >2) How much room do I need to provide per worm? (Say, worms/square inch) See chapter 7, p.30 of the above mentioned _Worms Eat My Garbage_. >3) How fresh should the veggies be that I feed to them? Doesn't matter. Moldy oldies will be quicker to break down, but it's the veggies' size that really affects the worms ability to make it all disappear. >Thanks, > >April No problem, charlie From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!info-server.bbn.com!news.bbn.com!ktsai Mon May 9 23:19:13 EDT 1994 Article: 31676 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!info-server.bbn.com!news.bbn.com!ktsai From: ktsai@bbn.com (Karl Tsai) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Lanscape Software Date: 5 May 94 12:18:38 Organization: BBN Systems and Technologies, Cambridge, MA Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <2q41ns$keb@tribune.usask.ca> <2q4plo$d9v@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: jazz.bbn.com In-reply-to: dave@CSOS.ORST.EDU's message of 3 May 1994 06:06:47 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <2q4plo$d9v@jadzia.CSOS.ORST.EDU> dave@CSOS.ORST.EDU (David Christensen) writes: In article <2q41ns$keb@tribune.usask.ca>, HP Service Account wrote: >Does anyone know of software that will allow to me select trees, shrubs, etc. >and visually represent what they may look like in 1,2,5,10, 25 years. I bought LandDesigner from green thumb software which has the growth feature mentioned. This S/W runs under Windows and has not front view; only top (bird-eye) view. Karl From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier Mon May 9 23:21:57 EDT 1994 Article: 31730 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier From: klier@cobra.uni.edu Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Shady, impressive perennials? Message-ID: <1994May6.123839.27497@cobra.uni.edu> Date: 6 May 94 12:38:39 -0500 References: <2p1imd$rj0@search01.news.aol.com> <2pptma$41e@clarknet.clark.net> <2q619k$6ql@angelfire.src.honeywell.com> Organization: University of Northern Iowa Lines: 20 Status: O X-Status: In article <2q619k$6ql@angelfire.src.honeywell.com>, knelson@src.honeywell.com (Kyle Nelson) writes: >>> I think you're right about Hosta, but also try Columbine, Bishop's >>> Goutweed, Bleeding Heart,Purple Loosestrife, and Daylillies (believe it >>> or not!), as well as Coral Bells, Foxglove, Astilbe, and Liriope. There, >>> that will keep you busy for a few weeks anyway... :) > > mostly good suggestions, however, purple loosestrife is considered a > noxious weed in minnesota and probably elsewhere - check local laws before > planting it. > The garden centers will be happy to tell you that their cultivated forms of purple loosestrife, Lythrum salicaria, don't escape and do all the damage in the waterways that the "wild purple loosestrife" does. DON'T BELIEVE IT FOR A MINUTE! I'm not sure where that garden legend began, but it needs to be extirpated... Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!hookup!batcomputer!cornell!rochester!dietz Mon May 9 23:22:44 EDT 1994 Article: 31974 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!hookup!batcomputer!cornell!rochester!dietz From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife (was Re: Shady, impressive perennials?) Message-ID: <1994May9.175636.8626@cs.rochester.edu> Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Department References: <2q619k$6ql@angelfire.src.honeywell.com> <1994May6.123839.27497@cobra.uni.edu> <2qh8e8$qh8@explorer.clark.net> <2qlohd$oi8@utne.zk3.dec.com> Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:56:36 GMT Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qlohd$oi8@utne.zk3.dec.com>, Andrew Duane USG/PE wrote: > I heard about Purple Loosestrife a couple of years ago, and in fact > noticed that it had taken over large patches of ground around southern > NH and northern MA. My road had a dozen large patches of it, my lot had > two. I was quite concerned about this invasive pest. > > Now, I cannot find a loosestrife plant if I look. They are gone from > my road, and I haven't seen any along the highways for quite some time. > > So, what happened? Within the last few years, some insects that feed on this stuff have been released in Canada and the US. I don't know if they're responsible, but I would not be surprised to discover they were. Paul From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!mercury.arc.ab.ca!titan.arc.ab.ca!falk Mon May 9 23:22:59 EDT 1994 Article: 31980 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!mercury.arc.ab.ca!titan.arc.ab.ca!falk From: falk@titan.arc.ab.ca Subject: Re: Purple Loosestrife (was Re: Shady, impressive perennials?) Message-ID: <1994May9.123441.1@titan.arc.ab.ca> Lines: 45 Sender: news@arc.ab.ca (USENET News System) Nntp-Posting-Host: titan.arc.ab.ca Organization: Alberta Research Council References: <2q619k$6ql@angelfire.src.honeywell.com> <1994May6.123839.27497@cobra.uni.edu> <2qh8e8$qh8@explorer.clark.net> <2qlohd$oi8@utne.zk3.dec.com> Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 19:34:41 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <2qlohd$oi8@utne.zk3.dec.com>, duane@magma.zk3.dec.com (Andrew Duane USG/PE) writes: > In article <2qh8e8$qh8@explorer.clark.net> jcp@clark.net (Jody C. Patilla) > writes: >>In article <1994May6.123839.27497@cobra.uni.edu>, >> wrote: >>>The garden centers will be happy to tell you that their cultivated forms >>>of purple loosestrife, Lythrum salicaria, don't escape and do all the damage >>>in the waterways that the "wild purple loosestrife" does. DON'T BELIEVE >>>IT FOR A MINUTE! >> >> Just to second what Kay has said here - don't believe it! Several >>years ago, before I found out what a pest loosestrife is, I bought a single >>plant of one of the cultivated forms, "Morden's Pink" or something like Morden Pink - named for Canada Agriculture Research Station at Morden, Manitoba. The idea was that the cultivars are self-sterile, so if there are no other Loosestrife varieties close enough to cross-pollinate, it would be okay. Turned out not to be the case. PL, include all cultivars is now declared a noxious weed in most (all?) Canadian provinces. It's not a problem (yet) in Alberta, but some invasions have been detected, including near the Devonian Botanic Gardens where they were "safely" growing Morden Pink and other cultivars. DBG has gotten rid of all PL as a result. >>that. I finally had to pull it out and compost it, and I am still pulling >>the seedlings out of the yard years later. > > I heard about Purple Loosestrife a couple of years ago, and in fact > noticed that it had taken over large patches of ground around southern > NH and northern MA. My road had a dozen large patches of it, my lot had > two. I was quite concerned about this invasive pest. > > Now, I cannot find a loosestrife plant if I look. They are gone from > my road, and I haven't seen any along the highways for quite some time. > > So, what happened? Haven't a clue. Too dry, maybe? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alfred Falk falk@arc.ab.ca A L B E R T A Information Systems Dept R E S E A R C H Box 8330, Station F C O U N C I L Edmonton, Alberta, Canada T6H 5X2 (403) 450-5185 From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ap574 Mon May 9 23:23:14 EDT 1994 Article: 31801 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ap574 From: ap574@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Anne Rutherford) Subject: Re: Shady, impressive perennials? Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca Reply-To: ap574@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Anne Rutherford) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <2q619k$6ql@angelfire.src.honeywell.com> <2p1imd$rj0@search01.news.aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 May 1994 03:33:52 GMT Lines: 18 Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, knelson@src.honeywell.com (Kyle Nelson) says: >>> I think you're right about Hosta, but also try Columbine, Bishop's >>> Goutweed, Bleeding Heart,Purple Loosestrife, and Daylillies (believe it >>> or not!), as well as Coral Bells, Foxglove, Astilbe, and Liriope. There, >>> that will keep you busy for a few weeks anyway... :) > >mostly good suggestions, however, purple loosestrife is considered a >noxious weed in minnesota and probably elsewhere - check local laws before >planting it. >> Caution --Goutweed can become a real pest. avoid it. you might think of Cimicifuga / Filipendula / Monkshood and alchemilla mollis / Hesperis matronalis These all work for me in my shady garden AR From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-6-4.ots.utexas.edu!user Mon May 9 23:23:50 EDT 1994 Article: 31721 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!slip-6-4.ots.utexas.edu!user From: trout@mail.utexas.edu (David H.) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: INFO please - org. farm associations Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 6 May 1994 19:03:19 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-6-4.ots.utexas.edu Status: O X-Status: Hi folks, Does anyone know anything about, or how to contact the following groups: North Organic Farm Association Northwest Workers on Organic Farms I may have their names slightly wrong. A friend is trying to contact them about summer work, and I said I'd try. Please reply via e-mail to trout@mail.utexas.edu thanks From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!apollo1.cacd.rockwell.com!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier Mon May 9 23:24:36 EDT 1994 Article: 31717 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.byu.edu!news.kei.com!eff!news.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!apollo1.cacd.rockwell.com!newsrelay.iastate.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier From: klier@cobra.uni.edu Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: How to get archives and faq's Message-ID: <1994May6.124038.27499@cobra.uni.edu> Date: 6 May 94 12:40:38 -0500 Organization: University of Northern Iowa Lines: 294 Status: O X-Status: Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: How to get to gardening FAQs, archives - UPDATE Summary: see text beginning at lines 53 and 103 -------------------------------------------------------- Accessing resources at sunSITE.unc.edu -------------------------------------- Methods: WAIS (also available via telnet) World Wide Web (via telnet, lynx available for vt100 users) anonymous ftp ftpmail Send e-mail to ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu for helpfile on ftpmail usage. Gopher (also available via telnet) Link Info: Type=1+ Name=Worlds of SunSITE -- by Subject Path=1/sunsite.d Host=calypso-2.oit.unc.edu. Port=70 telnet Login: (follow login instructions for access to WAIS, gopher, ftp, lynx) (vt100 works fine for those using that terminal type) Information on certain archives at sunSITE ------------------------------------------ Navigating the sunSITE ftp directories and Gopher menus: Anonymous ftp: cd pub/academic cd agriculture/sustainable_agriculture cd agriculture/rural-skills cd medicine/alternative-healthcare cd environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous Gopher: The Worlds of sunSITE Sustainable Agriculture Information SunSITE Sustainable Agriculture Information faqs gardening links to: Rural Skills: etc. Alternative Energy Alternative Healthcare Pesticide Education Farm Stewardship - other Gopher sites with ag/gardening information The Worlds of SunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic agriculture sustainable_agriculture rural-skills The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic environment alternative energy miscellaneous The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic medicine alternative healthcare The Worlds of sunSITE browse sunSITE archives academic environment pesticide education Newsgroup, mailing-list, newsletter archives/documents/FAQs on sustainable agriculture, permaculture, IPM, landscaping, gardening, farming, rural skills, horticulture, metalworking, woodworking, weather, housebuilding, food, cooking, nutrition, ecology, environment, pesticide education alternative: healthcare, energy, architecture, housing, living and many other related topics. FAQs for these newsgroups: rec.gardens (/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/faqs) misc.rural (/agriculture/rural-skills/faqs) rec.food.sourdough (/agriculture/rural-skills/food/sourdough/faqs) rec.food.veg (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) rec.crafts.metalworking (/agriculture/rural-skills/metalworking/faqs) rec.woodworking (/agriculture/rural-skills/woodworking/faqs) alternative energy (/environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous) sci.energy.hydrogen (/environment/alternative-energy/miscellaneous) alt.meditation (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) sci.life-extension (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) vegetarian (/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs) Documents (partial list): historic food sourdough bread-yoghurt-kraut-fermented foods vegetarian cooking alternative architecture alternative housing - sustainable communities - cohousing alternative healthcare sustainable agriculture gardening-farming-rural life permaculture integrated pest management meteorology beekeeping hydroponics biological pest control bioremediation aquaculture guides to Internet agriculture/healthcare/environment/biology resources homeopathy ayurveda nutrition meditation Mailing Lists: List name: sustag-public (sustainable agriculture) Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sustag-public@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Gated read/write to the alt.sustainable.agriculture Usenet newsgroup List name: sanet-mg (Sustainable Agriculture Network mail group) Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: sanet-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu List name: forage-mg (forage crops) Server: almanac@oes.orst.edu Post articles to: forage-mg@oes.orst.edu List name: forage-quality-mg (forage crop quality) Server: almanac@oes.orst.edu Post articles to: forage-quality-mg@oes.orst.edu List name: ipm-mg (integrated pest management) Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: ipm-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Gated read-only to the alt.sustainable.agriculture Usenet newsgroup List name: permaculture-mg (permaculture) Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Post articles to: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Gated read-only to the alt.sustainable.agriculture Usenet newsgroup List name: agmetnet (meteorology) Server: almanac@awis.auburn.edu Post articles to: agmetnet@awis.auburn.edu Server: almanac@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu: renew-energy (Renewable Energy), renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu nc-solar (North Carolina Solar Energy Resources), nc-solar@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu nat_med (Natural Medicine), nat_med@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu env_res (Environmental Resources), env-res@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu Additional mailing lists: [The pub/academic/agriculture/sustaianable_agriculture/net-resources directory will contain subscription information for many of these lists] wetnet soils-l agmodels-l agric-l envst-l grasses dairy-l bee-l hydro-l devel-l indknow-l aqua-l marine-l gardens-l cohousing-l maxlife Newsletters: ipmnet-news aanews aosa.news ben panups safefood-news susag-news vita-news altag-news apis attranews-digest cgiar-news csas-news food-safety-week handsnet-news leopold-center-news wsaa-news Usenet Newsgroups: sci.agriculture sci.agriculture.beekeeping alt.sustainable.agriculture alt.agriculture.misc alt.agriculture.fruit rec.gardens misc.rural sci.bio sci.bio.ecology sci.geo.geology sci.geo.meteorology sci.aquaria rec.aquaria bionet plants bionet mycology bionet photosynthesis bionet cellbiology bionet general bionet.agroforestry bionet.n2-fixation bionet.biology.tropical alt.architecture.alternative alt.housing.nontrad sci.energy sci.energy.hydrogen misc.health.alternative sci.life-extension alt.health.ayurveda alt.folklore.gemstones alt.folklore.herbs alt.co-evolution alt.meditation rec.food.veg rec.food.veg.cooking sci.med.nutrition alt.food.fat-free - For more information contact: Lawrence London london@sunSITE.unc.edu Paul Jones Paul_Jones@unc.edu Office for Information Technology University of North Carolina Chapel, Hill, N.C. Return-path: Received: from SunSITE.Unc.EDU (calypso-2.oit.unc.edu) by cobra.uni.edu (PMDF V4.2-13 #3072) id <01HBXSU4DB1S8X5QXH@cobra.uni.edu>; Wed, 4 May 1994 10:47:13 CDT Received: by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) id AA07652; Wed, 4 May 1994 11:46:49 -0400 Date: Wed, 04 May 1994 11:46:49 -0400 From: Larry London Subject: RE: How to get to FAQs, archives In-reply-to: <1994Apr26.230607.26906@cobra.uni.edu> To: klier@cobra.uni.edu Cc: Message-id: <199405041546.AA07652@SunSITE.Unc.EDU> Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill X-Envelope-to: klier Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Newsgroups: rec.gardens From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news Mon May 9 23:25:56 EDT 1994 Article: 31940 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: MULROY@EPISYS.EPI.WISC.EDU (Bob Mulroy) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Natural Insecticide/Fungicide for Fruit Trees? Date: 9 May 1994 14:58:28 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin/Sleep Research Lab Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2qlj2k$q4u@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: episys.epi.wisc.edu X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24 In-Reply-To: dwills@server.uwindsor.ca's message of Sun, 8 May 1994 18:07:49 GMT Status: O X-Status: In dwills@server.uwindsor.ca writes: > > Can anyone recommend a natural alternative to (e.g.) CIL Fruit Plus. > This contains phosalone and ferbam, and sounds pretty toxic. I have > newly planted apple, pear, & peach trees and a riesling vine. For fungus, try bordeaux mix, It's not exactly organic but It probably is alot better than the new magic-super-fungicides-that-REALLY-aren't -carcinogenic-even-though-we've-said-that-before. For bugs, use oil spray in fall, and BAT when they get out of hand. Don't forget to remove all fruit at the end of the season. > > Also, would raspberries need to be sprayed? Why not? Bob Mulroy, A keen gardner, decent dad/mom, Dir. of the above org'd lab. 9-A University Houses, Madison WI 53705. (608) 233-4672 Bob in '96!!! --------------------- Your favorite diclaimer here--------------------- From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mukluk!tonyp Mon May 9 23:27:27 EDT 1994 Article: 31900 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!msuinfo!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mukluk!tonyp From: tonyp@momth3.maths.monash.edu.au (Tony Papenfuss) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Permaculture question. Date: 9 May 1994 05:33:31 GMT Organization: Monash University Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2qkhvb$2cb@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: momth3.maths.monash.edu.au Status: O X-Status: Hi folks, Does anyone know of any Permaculture resources on the Internet ? Please respond by email, I can summarise to the group if it's desirable. Tony Papenfuss EMAIL: tonyp@momth0.maths.monash.edu.au From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ao512 Tue May 10 10:12:03 EDT 1994 Article: 32024 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ao512 From: ao512@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Joan Huntley) Subject: Re: garlic Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 23:57:08 GMT Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: You just can't compare garlic grown in the garden with that in the stores. For one thing, my garlic has a hard brown cover that comes off very easily. My "garlic" plot is 5 x 14' with the rows 6" apart and planted every two inches in the row. I plant regular, italian, elephant and although the federal department of agriculture here in Ottawa said I couldn't grow garlic from the bulbs whiched formed on top - Richters in Goodwood said I could and they are coming up quite nicely. Some of the garlic goes to making pesto (I also grow basil and parsle, among a lot of other things. Some of the garlic is peeled with olive oil poured over it (I still haven't run out of ways to use this heavenly stuff). Ah well - you might have guessed - another garlic lover. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff Tue May 10 10:18:20 EDT 1994 Article: 31956 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Followup-To: rec.gardens Lines: 34 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > Hello, > > I have a garden in the back and two cats. We let the squirrels and the > birds eat the walnuts that fall in the yard, and the birds sample the > strawberries, too. There's always plenty of food leftover for the humans. > > My belief is that people are supposed to be caring for the earth and not > killing everthing on it (up to and including other people!). > > If the squirrels eat my whole garden I'll probably be steamed but I still > won't kill them, nor the birds, nor the bugs. Ok, I'll swat a mosquito > that's biting me, but that's it. > > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water > supply. As far as where do they go - Roundup degrades into harmless bits rather quickly. I would venture a guess that most things used according to label directions do not pose that great of an issue. Off label use.... that's another story. Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go out on a leash). Rick Hoffman From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet Tue May 10 10:18:27 EDT 1994 Article: 31979 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: About Killing Things/Organics vs. non-organics Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Mon, 09 May 94 12:30:48 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 76 Message-ID: <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things > Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> > Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) > Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO > Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT > > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. > > BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go > out on a leash). > > Rick Hoffman > Certainly not to flame here, but I really do question the validity of such a blanket statement as the one above, talking about requiring more land for organic methods. The methodology or technology used in urban gardens of by farmers is by far not exacting enough for such statements. I have seen this statement supposedly supported and disproved in both organic and non-organic situations. Using organic does not naturally limit your productivity any more that insuring greater productivity. The appropriateness of any technology (organic or non-organic) to a given situation is what creates this sort of situation. I feel it is inappropriate to give people the wrong idea about one approach of the other, or to seem to discount one approach on only one point. Farming &/or horticulture are so complex in the factors which effect yield, such simplicity of thought is foolishness. Concerning non-organic methods: Many great strides have been made recently in the area of sustainable agriculture, which to my mind is primarily appropriate for long term economic as well as environmental reasons. Appropriate technology should always be applied to any situation if we are to operate efficiently and productively. You can be passivley organic and produce a rather rotten crop, and therefore require a larger amount of land for that same yield. But many agressivly organic farmers are now showing that yields can be extremely high using these practices. But farming is a very different situation from the average persons urban or suburban garden. For the average homeowner, there is genreally little need for the amount of non-organics that are marketed to them annually, only to be required again and again in the short term - sound economics for the product marketer - poor idea for the consumer and the environment. Any situation that would SEEM to require a non-organic action (or for that matter, any sort of expensive, time-consuming, disruptive activity), should be analyzed first to assess need, impact, payback, etc. More often that not, people figure out that little or no action is required. If some sort of action is required, an approach with minimal impact to the non-problem aspects of the garden would certainly be perfered. One of the major advatanges in my mind of organic methods over non-organics is the fact that they promote balanced natural systems in the environment (either your garden or globally). These natural systems evolved over millions of years and can be harnessed to work for us, just as we have domesticated wild animals. Why not 'cash-in' on a process that will work for you, instead of trying to be the process by controlling the environment through articficial means and therefore working against these natural processes. Certainly, if we are to be able to grow vegies or farm commercially, we need to have A DEGREE of control over things. But fostering a process that will sustain itself, by itself, more easily over the long run is certainly preferable (and make a lot more sense) than a short term 'fix' that will be needed again and again in the future, doing little to sustain itself or its effect, and running the risk of becoming ineffective over time due to the same natural evolution (i.e bugs becoming resistant to some pesticides). My 2 (or 20) cents Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet Tue May 10 10:20:08 EDT 1994 Article: 31979 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: About Killing Things/Organics vs. non-organics Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Mon, 09 May 94 12:30:48 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 76 Message-ID: <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things > Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> > Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) > Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO > Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT > > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. > > BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go > out on a leash). > > Rick Hoffman > Certainly not to flame here, but I really do question the validity of such a blanket statement as the one above, talking about requiring more land for organic methods. The methodology or technology used in urban gardens of by farmers is by far not exacting enough for such statements. I have seen this statement supposedly supported and disproved in both organic and non-organic situations. Using organic does not naturally limit your productivity any more that insuring greater productivity. The appropriateness of any technology (organic or non-organic) to a given situation is what creates this sort of situation. I feel it is inappropriate to give people the wrong idea about one approach of the other, or to seem to discount one approach on only one point. Farming &/or horticulture are so complex in the factors which effect yield, such simplicity of thought is foolishness. Concerning non-organic methods: Many great strides have been made recently in the area of sustainable agriculture, which to my mind is primarily appropriate for long term economic as well as environmental reasons. Appropriate technology should always be applied to any situation if we are to operate efficiently and productively. You can be passivley organic and produce a rather rotten crop, and therefore require a larger amount of land for that same yield. But many agressivly organic farmers are now showing that yields can be extremely high using these practices. But farming is a very different situation from the average persons urban or suburban garden. For the average homeowner, there is genreally little need for the amount of non-organics that are marketed to them annually, only to be required again and again in the short term - sound economics for the product marketer - poor idea for the consumer and the environment. Any situation that would SEEM to require a non-organic action (or for that matter, any sort of expensive, time-consuming, disruptive activity), should be analyzed first to assess need, impact, payback, etc. More often that not, people figure out that little or no action is required. If some sort of action is required, an approach with minimal impact to the non-problem aspects of the garden would certainly be perfered. One of the major advatanges in my mind of organic methods over non-organics is the fact that they promote balanced natural systems in the environment (either your garden or globally). These natural systems evolved over millions of years and can be harnessed to work for us, just as we have domesticated wild animals. Why not 'cash-in' on a process that will work for you, instead of trying to be the process by controlling the environment through articficial means and therefore working against these natural processes. Certainly, if we are to be able to grow vegies or farm commercially, we need to have A DEGREE of control over things. But fostering a process that will sustain itself, by itself, more easily over the long run is certainly preferable (and make a lot more sense) than a short term 'fix' that will be needed again and again in the future, doing little to sustain itself or its effect, and running the risk of becoming ineffective over time due to the same natural evolution (i.e bugs becoming resistant to some pesticides). My 2 (or 20) cents Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!pacbell.com!amdahl!juts.ccc.amdahl.com!NewsWatcher!user Tue May 10 10:22:18 EDT 1994 Article: 32017 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!pacbell.com!amdahl!juts.ccc.amdahl.com!NewsWatcher!user From: hmf00@eng.amdahl.com (howard fujimoto) Subject: Re: About Killing Things/Organics vs. non-organics Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com (UTS Tech Support) Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 00:07:01 GMT Lines: 141 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu>, saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet wrote: > > > From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > > Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things > > Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> > > Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) > > Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO > > Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT > > > > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. > > > > BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go > > out on a leash). > > > > Rick Hoffman > > > > Certainly not to flame here, but I really do question the validity of such a > > blanket statement as the one above, talking about requiring more land for > > organic methods. The methodology or technology used in urban gardens of by > > farmers is by far not exacting enough for such statements. I have seen this > > statement supposedly supported and disproved in both organic and non-organic > > situations. Using organic does not naturally limit your productivity any > > more that insuring greater productivity. The appropriateness of any > > technology (organic or non-organic) to a given situation is what creates > > this sort of situation. I feel it is inappropriate to give people the wrong > > idea about one approach of the other, or to seem to discount one approach on > > only one point. Farming &/or horticulture are so complex in the factors > > which effect yield, such simplicity of thought is foolishness. > > Concerning non-organic methods: Many great strides have been made recently > > in the area of sustainable agriculture, which to my mind is primarily > > appropriate for long term economic as well as environmental reasons. > > Appropriate technology should always be applied to any situation if we are > > to operate efficiently and productively. You can be passivley organic > > and produce a rather rotten crop, and therefore require a larger amount > > of land for that same yield. But many agressivly organic farmers are now > > showing that yields can be extremely high using these practices. But > > farming is a very different situation from the average persons urban or > > suburban garden. > > For the average homeowner, there is genreally little need for the amount of > > non-organics that are marketed to them annually, only to be required again > > and again in the short term - sound economics for the product marketer - > > poor idea for the consumer and the environment. Any situation that would > > SEEM to require a non-organic action (or for that matter, any sort of > > expensive, time-consuming, disruptive activity), should be analyzed first to > > assess need, impact, payback, etc. More often that not, people figure out > > that little or no action is required. If some sort of action is required, > > an approach with minimal impact to the non-problem aspects of the garden > > would certainly be perfered. > > One of the major advatanges in my mind of organic methods over non-organics > > is the fact that they promote balanced natural systems in the environment > > (either your garden or globally). These natural systems evolved over > > millions of years and can be harnessed to work for us, just as we have > > domesticated wild animals. Why not 'cash-in' on a process that will work > > for you, instead of trying to be the process by controlling the environment > > through articficial means and therefore working against these natural > > processes. Certainly, if we are to be able to grow vegies or farm > > commercially, we need to have A DEGREE of control over things. But > > fostering a process that will sustain itself, by itself, more easily over > > the long run is certainly preferable (and make a lot more sense) than a > > short term 'fix' that will be needed again and again in the future, doing > > little to sustain itself or its effect, and running the risk of becoming > > ineffective over time due to the same natural evolution (i.e bugs becoming > > resistant to some pesticides). > > My 2 (or 20) cents > > Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 > saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu O.k. My two cents. My family has and all ways will be farmers of one type or another. From up to a thousand to five acres of land. Half of us are organic and half of us are not. I believe that over the years we have all had our more than fair share of success. With some crops and plants better than others. But, what has caught our eyes and interest is that there are large amount of Amish, that do only Organic crop farming and are making a profit, while other farmers with non-organic, modern methods are losing thier livelyhood. Slowly, all farmers in our family are pulling towards organic and less modern methods....It may be a whole lot harder and a whole lot more time consuming BUT My children can get involved... THAT pleases me to no end. They get to release the lady bugs to eat the aphids.. They are learning that MODERN is not always best in all situations... I realize that there are going to be people that dis-agree but, hey.. my two cents... Any comments... please send to internet.. Patti > From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff Tue May 10 10:26:50 EDT 1994 Article: 31956 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Followup-To: rec.gardens Lines: 34 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > Hello, > > I have a garden in the back and two cats. We let the squirrels and the > birds eat the walnuts that fall in the yard, and the birds sample the > strawberries, too. There's always plenty of food leftover for the humans. > > My belief is that people are supposed to be caring for the earth and not > killing everthing on it (up to and including other people!). > > If the squirrels eat my whole garden I'll probably be steamed but I still > won't kill them, nor the birds, nor the bugs. Ok, I'll swat a mosquito > that's biting me, but that's it. > > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water > supply. As far as where do they go - Roundup degrades into harmless bits rather quickly. I would venture a guess that most things used according to label directions do not pose that great of an issue. Off label use.... that's another story. Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go out on a leash). Rick Hoffman From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!pacbell.com!amdahl!juts.ccc.amdahl.com!NewsWatcher!user Tue May 10 10:28:19 EDT 1994 Article: 32017 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!pacbell.com!amdahl!juts.ccc.amdahl.com!NewsWatcher!user From: hmf00@eng.amdahl.com (howard fujimoto) Subject: Re: About Killing Things/Organics vs. non-organics Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com (UTS Tech Support) Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 00:07:01 GMT Lines: 141 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qm4qq$9h0@agate.berkeley.edu>, saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet wrote: > > > From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > > Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things > > Message-ID: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> > > Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) > > Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO > > Date: Mon, 9 May 1994 17:32:49 GMT > > > > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. > > > > BTW, we have a garden in the back and three cats (and they only go > > out on a leash). > > > > Rick Hoffman > > > > Certainly not to flame here, but I really do question the validity of such a > > blanket statement as the one above, talking about requiring more land for > > organic methods. The methodology or technology used in urban gardens of by > > farmers is by far not exacting enough for such statements. I have seen this > > statement supposedly supported and disproved in both organic and non-organic > > situations. Using organic does not naturally limit your productivity any > > more that insuring greater productivity. The appropriateness of any > > technology (organic or non-organic) to a given situation is what creates > > this sort of situation. I feel it is inappropriate to give people the wrong > > idea about one approach of the other, or to seem to discount one approach on > > only one point. Farming &/or horticulture are so complex in the factors > > which effect yield, such simplicity of thought is foolishness. > > Concerning non-organic methods: Many great strides have been made recently > > in the area of sustainable agriculture, which to my mind is primarily > > appropriate for long term economic as well as environmental reasons. > > Appropriate technology should always be applied to any situation if we are > > to operate efficiently and productively. You can be passivley organic > > and produce a rather rotten crop, and therefore require a larger amount > > of land for that same yield. But many agressivly organic farmers are now > > showing that yields can be extremely high using these practices. But > > farming is a very different situation from the average persons urban or > > suburban garden. > > For the average homeowner, there is genreally little need for the amount of > > non-organics that are marketed to them annually, only to be required again > > and again in the short term - sound economics for the product marketer - > > poor idea for the consumer and the environment. Any situation that would > > SEEM to require a non-organic action (or for that matter, any sort of > > expensive, time-consuming, disruptive activity), should be analyzed first to > > assess need, impact, payback, etc. More often that not, people figure out > > that little or no action is required. If some sort of action is required, > > an approach with minimal impact to the non-problem aspects of the garden > > would certainly be perfered. > > One of the major advatanges in my mind of organic methods over non-organics > > is the fact that they promote balanced natural systems in the environment > > (either your garden or globally). These natural systems evolved over > > millions of years and can be harnessed to work for us, just as we have > > domesticated wild animals. Why not 'cash-in' on a process that will work > > for you, instead of trying to be the process by controlling the environment > > through articficial means and therefore working against these natural > > processes. Certainly, if we are to be able to grow vegies or farm > > commercially, we need to have A DEGREE of control over things. But > > fostering a process that will sustain itself, by itself, more easily over > > the long run is certainly preferable (and make a lot more sense) than a > > short term 'fix' that will be needed again and again in the future, doing > > little to sustain itself or its effect, and running the risk of becoming > > ineffective over time due to the same natural evolution (i.e bugs becoming > > resistant to some pesticides). > > My 2 (or 20) cents > > Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 > saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu O.k. My two cents. My family has and all ways will be farmers of one type or another. From up to a thousand to five acres of land. Half of us are organic and half of us are not. I believe that over the years we have all had our more than fair share of success. With some crops and plants better than others. But, what has caught our eyes and interest is that there are large amount of Amish, that do only Organic crop farming and are making a profit, while other farmers with non-organic, modern methods are losing thier livelyhood. Slowly, all farmers in our family are pulling towards organic and less modern methods....It may be a whole lot harder and a whole lot more time consuming BUT My children can get involved... THAT pleases me to no end. They get to release the lady bugs to eat the aphids.. They are learning that MODERN is not always best in all situations... I realize that there are going to be people that dis-agree but, hey.. my two cents... Any comments... please send to internet.. Patti > From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!psinntp!society.com!wl-mr_ig-iga Tue May 10 10:31:12 EDT 1994 Article: 31909 of rec.gardens Date: Sun, 08 May 94 17:25:25 EST Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!psinntp!society.com!wl-mr_ig-iga From: wl-mr_ig-iga@society.com Newsgroups: rec.gardens Organization: Message-ID: <22732HVSDGFXFDXQXGM@society.com> Subject: Re: powdery mildew: organic cure? Lines: 13 Status: O X-Status: works best with healthy soil, with no chemical fertilzers used, especially high nitrigen. The Invisible Gardener --- Sent via WorldLink on 05/08/94 at 17:24:56. From: The Invisible Gardener Malibu, CA Information on organics. From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!karenp Wed May 11 23:28:04 EDT 1994 Article: 32127 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens,triangle.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!psinntp!psinntp!halon!sybase!karenp From: karenp@sybase.com (Karen Paulsell) Subject: Re: Polinating Corn By Hand. How? Message-ID: Sender: usenet@sybase.com Organization: Sybase, Inc. References: Date: Tue, 10 May 1994 20:49:52 GMT Lines: 18 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:32127 triangle.gardens:608 Status: O X-Status: In article howard@crash.cts.com (Howard Knight) writes: >I have a garden with very few corn plants. They are tastling and >silk is starting to appear. Since I have so few plants, I would >like to polinate them by hand to get the most out of them. How >do I do it? If this is a FAQ, please let me know where I can get >a copy. > >Best regards, > >Howard Knight > You want to collect pollen from the tops and deposit on the silks. One recommended technique is to hold a paper bag under the tops and gently shake the pollen into the bag from all your plants, then gently shake the pollen out over the silks. Each corn kernel has its own silk; for that kernel to develop, its silk must get a pollen grain. Awesome, isn't it? From clarke@lsl.co.uk Wed May 18 23:32:05 EDT 1994 Article: 32263 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uknet!lsl!clarke From: clarke@lsl.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Establish market for rare Central Oregon Mushrooms. Message-ID: <1994May11.103505.4476@lsl.co.uk> Date: 11 May 94 10:35:05 +0100 References: <2qol6n$jp3@crl.crl.com> <2qonep$416@ice.geology.wisc.edu> Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge Lines: 22 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qonep$416@ice.geology.wisc.edu>, barker@geology.wisc.edu (William Wayne Barker) writes: > In article <2qol6n$jp3@crl.crl.com> eah@crl.com (Emory Horvath.) writes: >> I would like to determine and establish a market for sale of rare >>Central Oregon mushrooms, specifically 'White Matsutakes' aka > After reading in today's NY Times that export of the common box turtle has > led to their steep decline, (not to metion the fact that most of them die a > nasty death in the pet trade of Europe), I'd like to know why you think > folks in rec.gardens should help you profit from stealing a (by your own > admission) rare native lifeform from the wild for export? Is this any > different than killing tigers for their penis as an Oriental aphrodisiac? > Rare lifeforms should be left alone, not viewed as a source of income. Let > the *%$@s eat button mushrooms! Or black fungus! B- I agree. When I read the original, I assumed that the intention was to grow the things in cultivation, but having gone back and read it again, it did read as though the idea was to visit the habitat in season and steal the things. -- Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel (+44) 223 420414; Fax 420044, Email CLARKE@LSL.CO.UK (via BRITAIN.EU.NET) From rxs@news.fc.hp.com Wed May 18 23:33:22 EDT 1994 Article: 32274 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!rxs From: rxs@news.fc.hp.com (Lee Snider) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Establish market for rare Central Oregon Mushrooms. Date: 12 May 1994 11:36:45 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site Lines: 39 Message-ID: <2qt4cd$4sn@tadpole.fc.hp.com> References: <2qol6n$jp3@crl.crl.com> <2qonep$416@ice.geology.wisc.edu> <1994May11.103505.4476@lsl.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpfire0.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] Status: O X-Status: > Is this any > different than killing tigers for their penis as an Oriental aphrodisiac? > Rare lifeforms should be left alone, not viewed as a source of income. Let > the *%$@s eat button mushrooms! Or black fungus! B- Clarke wrote: : I agree. When I read the original, I assumed that the intention was to : grow the things in cultivation, but having gone back and read it again, : it did read as though the idea was to visit the habitat in season and : steal the things. So that the poor fellow who asked the question about creating a market for Matsutakes won't feel like a total loser I'm going to side with him. 1. There is a big difference between harvesting wild mushrooms in a responsible manner (leaving a few for future propagation) and harvesting tiger genitalia. Genitals don't grow back. Since the host organism (the tiger) doesn't like having his penis removed, one has to kill him to get at them. You don't have to kill the mushroom organism to pick it's seed bearing appendage. 2. When a person picks wild chokecherries to take home for jelly or wine, do you say that person is "stealing" the berries? Remember that mushrooms are the fruit of an organism that resides underground and as long as you cut the mushroom off at ground level you aren't doing anymore damage than you would do to an apple tree by picking the apples. In fact, the mere handling of the mature mushroom will greatly increase the distribution of the spores throughout the area being harvested. I am aware of the current situation in the Pacific Northwest where hords of people are raping and pillaging the forest in search of Matsutakes. The problem there is the general disrespect of the forest not the mushroom harvest itself. Lee Snider rxs@hpfidlf.fc.hp.com **The opinions expressed here are my own, not my employers** From maschue@sdd.hp.com Wed May 18 23:35:08 EDT 1994 Article: 32662 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!darwin.sura.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!nobody From: maschue@sdd.hp.com (Sean Maschue) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Establish market for rare Central Oregon Mushrooms. Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 16 May 1994 15:03:04 -0700 Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division Lines: 35 Sender: maschue@sdd.hp.com Distribution: world Message-ID: <2r8qioINNt03@hpsdleb3.sdd.hp.com> References: <2qonep$416@ice.geology.wisc.edu> <1994May11.103505.4476@lsl.co.uk> <2qt4cd$4sn@tadpole.fc.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdleb3.sdd.hp.com Summary: save the hairy white ghost mushroom Status: O X-Status: > > Is this any > > different than killing tigers for their penis as an Oriental aphrodisiac? > > Rare lifeforms should be left alone, not viewed as a source of income. Let > > the *%$@s eat button mushrooms! Or black fungus! B- > > >2. When a person picks wild chokecherries to take home for jelly or > wine, do you say that person is "stealing" the berries? I certainly do, If I am the Bird or Bear or Moose that took-up residence in this forest, so that I could eat those berries and feed my family, and consequently feed the soul that feeds the trees that feeds the great hair ghost mushroom Matsutake. Pick only what you can eat while you are in the woods, and take only a leak on the tree that fed you. > and as long as you cut the mushroom off at ground level you aren't > doing anymore damage than you would do to an apple tree by picking > the apples. It depends on how you pick the apples, and on who owns the apple tree you desire to pick apples from. An apple tree that you care for in your back yard is quite unique from the wild resources that millions of other organisms count on. Stay on the paths, and leave the leaf blowers at home folks. xoxo sean -- sean maschue USDA ZONE 11 From a-ehawl@microsoft.com Wed May 18 23:35:57 EDT 1994 Article: 32304 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!microsoft!wingnut!a-ehawl From: a-ehawl@microsoft.com (Eric Hawley) Subject: Re: Hydroponics... Message-ID: Organization: Microsoft Corp. Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 18:16:07 GMT Distribution: usa References: <2q6v95$jb3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Lines: 36 Status: O X-Status: In article <2q6v95$jb3@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> jpnan@prairienet.org wrote: > > Hydroponics is not particularly easy. You many be able to buy > some kind of a kit, with everything supplied, and with directions, > but there is no simple or cheap way to go about it. Soil is really > best for plants, soil picks up the various minerals that are added > with the water for watering, or by fertilizer, holds it and releases it so plants can > use it. Balancing hydroponic solutions is delicate, and there are > many factors to consider. Might be fun to grow a plant or two that > way but NOT easy. I have had experience in a laboratory in which > hydroponics was developed back in the 30's and 40's, so I do have > some experience, but have never been tempted to try it at home. > -- I have gardened hydroponically now for the last ten years, and do not find it to be much more difficult than growing in "soil". A grower using one of the commercially available soil-less potting mixes is in essence growing hydroponically. The media itself offers little if any nutrients. Most or all nutrients are supplied either through incorporated slow-release fertilizers, or through regular water soluble feedings. Commercially available nutrient solutions make it quite easy to grow any plant hydroponically, with or without media. Simple, inexpensive tools are available for monitoring nutrient solutions, as are amendments for adjusting same. The increased rate of growth, disease free growing environment, and even the sense of controlling a plants growth are all reasons I continue to use various forms of hydroponics to grow vegetables and herbs in my greenhouse. As for an inexpensive way to go about it, there are a number of decent books available describing quite simple systems that can be easily constructed with readily available components from a local plumbing supply or hardware store. Nutrients can be either bought premixed, or concocted from common chemicals available at many nursey supply houses. Even the organic grower can take advantage of increased growth through the use of various manures. Eric, just my opinion From lamantia@u.washington.edu Wed May 18 23:37:39 EDT 1994 Article: 32248 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!lamantia From: lamantia@u.washington.edu (Stephen Lamantia) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Moisture Meter? Date: 11 May 1994 23:45:45 GMT Organization: University of Washington Lines: 25 Message-ID: <2qrqn9$k3a@news.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: The local nursery is selling a moisture meter. It's an electrical meter mounted on a 10" metallic probe. You stick the probe down into the soil and the meter registers "dry", "moist", or "wet". Since it was only $6.00, I bought it. It requires no batteries, so I presume it works on the dissimilar metal principle (or something like that), using the soil as an electrolyte (or something like that), hence becoming it's own battery (or something like that), with the resulting output voltage relative to the amount of moisture in the soil. Or something like that. It seems to work okay, in a relative way. By "relative" I mean that when I probe soil that I know is dry, it does indeed indicate "dry"; when I probe soil that I know is saturated, the meter indicates "wet". Has anyone else ever used one of these? I'm just wondering how much stock to place in it. I can appreciate "seat of the pants" gardening as much as anyone, but I'm one of those people who tends to have no idea how wet the soil is beyond the surface, or even how wet is wet enough or how dry is too dry, so if these gizmos are to be trusted then it'd be a godsend to me. What's the net's opinion on these things? -- Steve LaMantia Seattle, Wa From waverheu@rc1.vub.ac.be Wed May 18 23:39:16 EDT 1994 Article: 32625 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!ub4b!idefix.CS.kuleuven.ac.be!rc1.vub.ac.be!rc1.vub.ac.be!waverheu From: waverheu@rc1.vub.ac.be (Willy A Verheulpen) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Moisture Meter? Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 15:27:01 GMT Organization: Institute Molecular Biology, Brussels Free University Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <2qrqn9$k3a@news.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: imolpc1.vub.ac.be X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] Status: O X-Status: In article <2qrqn9$k3a@news.u.washington.edu> lamantia@u.washington.edu (Stephen Lamantia) writes: >From: lamantia@u.washington.edu (Stephen Lamantia) >Subject: Moisture Meter? >Date: 11 May 1994 23:45:45 GMT >The local nursery is selling a moisture meter. It's an electrical meter >mounted on a 10" metallic probe. You stick the probe down into the soil and >the meter registers "dry", "moist", or "wet". Since it was only $6.00, I >bought it. [deleted] >-- Steve LaMantia > Seattle, Wa Your concept of hte 'thing' is quite correct. I even have info on how to make one yourself. It is rather easy. A number of people dislike them but I find them quite usefull. I'm cultivating a small (appox 1000) collection of cacti & for the plants in larger pots it is mostly difficult to evaluate the moisture left in the lower part of the soil. Small pots I can easily judge by hand weight. I think people make the mistake to take the reading scale as an absolute indication. I value the indication by my own reading scale ie what reading do I get in very dry, dry, lightly moist etc soils. If used this way I find it a good tool. HTH! From clarke@lsl.co.uk Wed May 18 23:45:56 EDT 1994 Article: 32254 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!lsl!clarke From: clarke@lsl.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: belladonna Message-ID: <1994May5.155042.4430@lsl.co.uk> Date: 5 May 94 15:50:42 +0100 References: Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge Lines: 25 Status: O X-Status: In article , cheryln@stortek.com (Cheryl Netter x3449) writes: > A friend of mine is looking for a source for belladonna > (Atropa belladonna). If anyone knows of one, please > email me at: > cheryln@redwood.stortek.com ...otherwise known as Deadly Nightshade Chiltern Seeds have it. Chiltern Seeds Bortree Stile Ulverston Cumbria LA12 7PB England I tried it 'just to see what it was like'. Strangely enough, I got black and yellow fruited specimens from the same packet - they sold the yellow one separately as well. -- Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel (+44) 223 420414; Fax 420044, Email CLARKE@LSL.CO.UK (via BRITAIN.EU.NET) From clarke@lsl.co.uk Wed May 18 23:46:57 EDT 1994 Article: 32268 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!uknet!lsl!clarke From: clarke@lsl.co.uk Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May12.110422.4487@lsl.co.uk> Date: 12 May 94 11:04:22 +0100 References: Followup-To: rec.gardens Organization: Laser-Scan Ltd., Cambridge Lines: 36 Status: O X-Status: In article , hmf00@eng.amdahl.com (howard fujimoto) writes: > I do belive I have a real STUPID question .... I am kinda new to the NET > but I have yet to see anybody tell the people that use chemicals about > insect preditors.. Does no one but me use this method??? When I have a > outbreak of aphids I get ladybugs and they eat them and come back again > next year.. There is also a company that sells ALL kinds of bugs to use > instead of chemicals.. and it is mail order... Am I but a naive person?? > Does no one understand that nature put bugs out there to eat other bugs?? > My family has been doing this method for up to 15 years.. Seems to work > for us.... If it works for you, then great, and by all means let's encourage others to give it a try. I'm not yet convinced that natural predators are the great cure-all though. Here in the UK, I believe that natural predators are used quite a lot in commercial food production under glass. When you have a large area under the same crop, suffering from the same pest, then it probably works quite well, but I don't think its so good in a mixed amateur collection. Most of the predator insects that I know of seem to require temperatures a little higher than are usual in the UK for successful development. The 'authorities' are now tending to prevent the import of strange foreign insects until many trials have taken place, in case they prove to be more of a pest than the thing they were supposed to control, or they devour some other beneficial native insect. My own war is waged against red spider mite in a greenhouse - I have used the predatory mite Phytoseiulus twice, but did not get particularly good results, and you can't wait until all your plants are dead before resorting to chemicals again. Let's hope that some more effective predators are discovered which can cope with the highly unnatural conditions of our gardens and greenhouses. -- Clarke Brunt (CCB), Principal Software Engineer, Laser-Scan Ltd, Science Park, Milton Rd, CAMBRIDGE, CB4 4FY, England. Tel (+44) 223 420414; Fax 420044, Email CLARKE@LSL.CO.UK (via BRITAIN.EU.NET) From scd@atria.com Wed May 18 23:48:43 EDT 1994 Article: 32276 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 12:44:42 GMT Lines: 41 Status: O X-Status: Troy Cobb (troy@solve.com) wrote: : In article scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) writes: : >From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) : >Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things : >Date: Wed, 11 May 1994 13:00:24 GMT : : Steve, : Get off your high 'scientific' horse. Any chemical which : adds to the pollution load we place on the Earth is, indeed, : pollution, and should be reduced, if possible. Every little : be helps, no matter how 'insignificant'. I think you missed my point. I was talking about a single product being linked to an article about pollution. One poster claimed this product decomposed inot harmful byproducts. Another challanged this by citing a newspaper article about checmical use in general. So the question I would ask you is this: Does roundup add to the pollution load? If it does, you and I are in total agreement. : By the way, where is YOUR scientific data on the biodegradation : of RoundUp? I never claimed I had any, nor did I say roundup did or didn't add to the pollution. I was pointing out that the employee of the manuf. was making a claim and rather than ask him for proof, a newspaper article was used to try to challange him. Does this seem logical to you? : Go Organic! : - Troy : P.S. I HAVE read 'scientific' journals with plenty of : information on pollution due to runoff from homes and : farms. It is significant. Email me for a pointer. Yes, but was roundup among them? Regards, Steve -- From scd@atria.com Wed May 18 23:50:43 EDT 1994 Article: 32285 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 13:33:24 GMT Lines: 96 Status: O X-Status: Diane Bongiorni (dbongiorni@pbs.org) wrote: : In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: : > : Also, forgive me for saying so, but someone posting from Monsanto hardly : > : seems objective about chemicals. No flame intended, just my opinion. : > : > So what are you credentials in terms of environmental engineering, cheimstry, : > etc.? Could it be that you have a bias against someone simply because of : > where they work? Hmmm, this sounds typical of the pbs crowd - no flame : > intended, just my opinion. : > : > Regards, : > Steve : > -- : Steve, : I never claimed to be a scientist, and I'm not. I am an organic gardener. : I BELIEVE that using pesticides and herbicides is harmful to the earth's : ecosystem. EXCUSE ME. I alays excuse those who never examine their beliefs with an objective eye. : I'm sure you can post a million studies that say they do no harm, if you : want to. After all, you've read the book on how to lie with statistics. You too have missed my point. I was talking about a single product and the claim that _it_ decomposed into harmelss compounds. All you could do was say, as you are doing now with the use of "they", that pesticides and herbicides are bad. I'm simply pointing out to you that not all pesticides and herbicides are bad and some may actually be good. As far as the book goes, I suggested it as good reading becuase it is, and I felt you and others might benefit from it. You would learn of such concepts as semiattachment and the like. Now for a shocker (I'm assuming that you will be shocked because you seem to jump to conclusions): I too garden organically. I use natural preditors and all sorts of "eco-friendly" techniques. Why some of my relatives are real farmers and use organic techniques as well. I am also an ardent supporter of public radio and television. I also use pesticides and herbacides when necessary, and I am careful to select those that do not persist in the environment. When I am in doubt, I ask my brother (who is a practicing chemical engineer and environmental engineer). : I'm sure the hole in the ozone layer, the undrinkable water on this planet : and the toxic waste spills all would have ocurred *without* the use of : non-organic chemical compounds by humans, right? There's no pollution : problem either, hmmm? (The question still is, does roundup contribute in any way to these problems?) Well, now you are putting words into my mouth! Tell me, why do you think I'm a pro checmical anti-eco person? Could it be you have made the same mistake again with assessing me as you did in reading the newspaper article? Lets see, you reached your conclusion about me because of one post where I challanged the politically correct sentiment that all herbacides are bad because they are made by a chemical company and because I came to the defence of a chemical company employee. Hmmm.... Do you still feel this way now? : Have you read any of the studies regarding what's happened to the : Everglades. I know that an article in a newspaper isn't good enough for : you. In fact I have. In fact, much of what you say is true in general terms. However I object to you using generalities like those above to prove your opinion about a specific product. In fact, with respect to the bay area study, most of that problem is due to commercial use of pesticides, poor land management, ineffective public policy and environmental engineering practices, etc.. I don't recall seeing any attempt to account for what percentages non commercial use of chemicals, by type, play in the problem. The best scientific case that could be made is to identify the residual chemicals and then identify which non-commerical products use those chemicals exclusively. To my knowledge, this has not been done. : If you ARE an engineer, why don't you take some of your talent and find : ways to undo the pollution that already exists? Why not do some good? I have several degrees, engineering among them. I do good deeds all the time, some as aprt of my profession and some just because I'm a nice guy. Why do you assume otherwise? : You're entitled to your opinion and you have it. I totally disagree with : you. Poor dumb old me - reading a newspaper! I just don't know how I'll : live with myself. If you only read the newspaper and take it a gospel, then yes, poor you. Regards, Steve -- From eberts@donald.uoregon.edu Wed May 18 23:51:43 EDT 1994 Article: 32413 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.uoregon.edu!seberts.uoregon.edu!user From: eberts@donald.uoregon.edu (sonny hays-eberts) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 08:46:34 -0800 Organization: U of O Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: seberts.uoregon.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: > You too have missed my point. I was talking about a single product and the > claim that _it_ decomposed into harmelss compounds. All you could do was > say, as you are doing now with the use of "they", that pesticides and > herbicides are bad. I'm simply pointing out to you that not all pesticides > and herbicides are bad and some may actually be good. true. and some even the use of truly organic materials can create problems. overuse of manures can create problems for watersheds. *my* guiding principle is that i want to put nothing in the soil that i don't want to end up in my well-water. that means i use organic methods myself. however, the original poster made a second point, that organic gardening must use twice the land area as non-organic farming to produce an equivalent yield. this i must disagree with. organic gardening, combined with raised beds and intensive planting can give yields many times greater than traditional farming. steve solomon has some numbers from 'organic gardening west of the cascades' from a pilot project doing such a thing. i'll doublecheck the numbers, but i seem to recall that the pilot project harvested something like 22,000 lbs of celery per acre as opposed to 4,000 per acre for traditional methods. similar increases were reported for a variety of plants. in our little neighborhood we have four gardeners. three use organic methods, the other doesn't. oddly enough, the three organic gardeners have much greater yields. 70 pound pumpkins vs. 10 or under. 10-14 ft corn. vs 6-8. *and* the level of friendly animal activity (bees, birds, snakes, etc) is also greater at the organic sites. we have all crearted loam, while the non-organic site still struggles with clay. in favor of the non-organic site, the non-organic garden is much more weed-free and has a lovely lawn, but i wouldn't even dream of swapping. yeah, we have problems with scales and some beetles, but in our own tiny ecosystem there's a full set of checks and balances working so that nothing ever completely dominates (except maybe slugs - this is the northwest after all!) organic gardening requires a lot of work. if you put that effort into it, you'll get yields at or exceeding traditional vegetable gardens, not below. now, if you *don't* put that effort in you'll likely see a decreased yield. but don't assert that organic gardening is less effective for home gardens. -- "party people in the house it's a love thang." -tom tom club sonny hays-eberts eberts@donald.uoregon.edu From scd@atria.com Wed May 18 23:52:32 EDT 1994 Article: 32431 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!yale.edu!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 17:37:44 GMT Lines: 57 Status: O X-Status: sonny hays-eberts (eberts@donald.uoregon.edu) wrote: : In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: [...] : however, the original poster made a second point, that organic gardening : must use twice the land area as non-organic farming to produce an : equivalent yield. : this i must disagree with. organic gardening, combined with raised beds and : intensive planting can give yields many times greater than traditional : farming. steve solomon has some numbers from 'organic gardening west of the : cascades' from a pilot project doing such a thing. i'll doublecheck the : numbers, but i seem to recall that the pilot project harvested something : like 22,000 lbs of celery per acre as opposed to 4,000 per acre for : traditional methods. similar increases were reported for a variety of : plants. I don't think this was the original poster's claim, but I may be wrong. At any rate, I have heard this statistic before, but here again I'm not sure this claim is properly based. I have never seen wide spread use of this claim used for either farming _or_ gardening, but always lumping the two together. I would not be surprised to learn that the number is lower for commercial farms. My Cousin's farm in Canada started out organic (100+ acres of it). He stuck it out for a bunch of years (I don't recall exactly how many, but there is a break-point claimed by the organic supporters in the realm of 5 years or so - he waited a few years extra) and then gave up. It just wasn't practical for commercial operations of his type. In fact, I know of no commercial farm that has been successful using *only* organic techniques. By the way, commercial here means all one does is farm, no day job, no spouse working, etc., no government people checking on the crops - just the farmer and his normal hands. Were talking farming! Similar attempts were made by his cohorts and by others I have talked to once I found out they had tried or were still trying organic techniques. I suspect organics is very successful for gardens because its a smaller patch to tend and more care/attention can be paid to the process. I also suspect the same is true of pilot projects for the same reasons. I would be very interested in seeing some studies involving a commercial farming operation, in other words, mainstream application of the techniques perfected in the lab. I have family members that would love to see some! [...] : organic gardening requires a lot of work. if you put that effort into it, : you'll get yields at or exceeding traditional vegetable gardens, not below. : now, if you *don't* put that effort in you'll likely see a decreased yield. : but don't assert that organic gardening is less effective for home gardens. Very true and supported by my own experiences gardening. As I said above, I don't think the saem is true for farming. Regards, Steve -- From eberts@donald.uoregon.edu Wed May 18 23:52:40 EDT 1994 Article: 32413 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.uoregon.edu!seberts.uoregon.edu!user From: eberts@donald.uoregon.edu (sonny hays-eberts) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 08:46:34 -0800 Organization: U of O Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: seberts.uoregon.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: > You too have missed my point. I was talking about a single product and the > claim that _it_ decomposed into harmelss compounds. All you could do was > say, as you are doing now with the use of "they", that pesticides and > herbicides are bad. I'm simply pointing out to you that not all pesticides > and herbicides are bad and some may actually be good. true. and some even the use of truly organic materials can create problems. overuse of manures can create problems for watersheds. *my* guiding principle is that i want to put nothing in the soil that i don't want to end up in my well-water. that means i use organic methods myself. however, the original poster made a second point, that organic gardening must use twice the land area as non-organic farming to produce an equivalent yield. this i must disagree with. organic gardening, combined with raised beds and intensive planting can give yields many times greater than traditional farming. steve solomon has some numbers from 'organic gardening west of the cascades' from a pilot project doing such a thing. i'll doublecheck the numbers, but i seem to recall that the pilot project harvested something like 22,000 lbs of celery per acre as opposed to 4,000 per acre for traditional methods. similar increases were reported for a variety of plants. in our little neighborhood we have four gardeners. three use organic methods, the other doesn't. oddly enough, the three organic gardeners have much greater yields. 70 pound pumpkins vs. 10 or under. 10-14 ft corn. vs 6-8. *and* the level of friendly animal activity (bees, birds, snakes, etc) is also greater at the organic sites. we have all crearted loam, while the non-organic site still struggles with clay. in favor of the non-organic site, the non-organic garden is much more weed-free and has a lovely lawn, but i wouldn't even dream of swapping. yeah, we have problems with scales and some beetles, but in our own tiny ecosystem there's a full set of checks and balances working so that nothing ever completely dominates (except maybe slugs - this is the northwest after all!) organic gardening requires a lot of work. if you put that effort into it, you'll get yields at or exceeding traditional vegetable gardens, not below. now, if you *don't* put that effort in you'll likely see a decreased yield. but don't assert that organic gardening is less effective for home gardens. -- "party people in the house it's a love thang." -tom tom club sonny hays-eberts eberts@donald.uoregon.edu From aud@ncd.com Wed May 18 23:53:00 EDT 1994 Article: 32782 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!ncd.com!newshost.ncd.com!not-for-mail From: aud@ncd.com (Audrey Ishizaki) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Date: 17 May 1994 11:05:20 -0700 Organization: Network Computing Devices, Inc Lines: 14 Sender: aud@ncd.com Message-ID: <2rb110$q34$1@verbosa.ncd.com> References: Reply-To: aud@ncd.com NNTP-Posting-Host: verbosa.ncd.com Status: O X-Status: In article , Steve Daukas wrote: >In fact, I know of no commercial farm that has been >successful using *only* organic techniques. By the way, commercial here means >all one does is farm, no day job, no spouse working, etc., no government people >checking on the crops - just the farmer and his normal hands. Were talking farming! How about the Amish/Mennonite farms? Are they too small to consider as commercial? Do they use chemicals? I recall reading (sorry, not a journal) that their use of plow horses rather than tractors led to a significant lessening of soil compaction. Of course, that's sort of apples/oranges. Perhaps their farming techniques are simlarly organic? audrey ishizaki From rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Wed May 18 23:53:48 EDT 1994 Article: 32324 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May12.115629.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Followup-To: rec.gardens Lines: 102 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:56:29 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: Oh oh, a flame war! > > >> : Also, forgive me for saying so, but someone posting from Monsanto hardly >> : seems objective about chemicals. No flame intended, just my opinion. BTW, I only post for myself. I never have spoken on behalf of Monsanto, and never intend to. >> >> So what are you credentials in terms of environmental engineering, cheimstry, >> etc.? Could it be that you have a bias against someone simply because of >> where they work? Hmmm, this sounds typical of the pbs crowd - no flame >> intended, just my opinion. >> >> Regards, >> Steve >> -- > > Steve, > > I never claimed to be a scientist, and I'm not. I am an organic gardener. > > > I BELIEVE that using pesticides and herbicides is harmful to the earth's > ecosystem. EXCUSE ME. Question: What about naturally occuring pesticides? Do they harm the earth's ecosystem? > > I'm sure you can post a million studies that say they do no harm, if you > want to. After all, you've read the book on how to lie with statistics. > > I'm sure the hole in the ozone layer, the undrinkable water on this planet > and the toxic waste spills all would have ocurred *without* the use of > non-organic chemical compounds by humans, right? There's no pollution > problem either, hmmm? Hey, you're right! Why look at any of the advancements we've made in the last xxxxx years? Who cares if it takes less than 2% of the population in the U.S. to feed more than the rest of us in the U.S.? Water? I have no problem drinking from our local water supply. Do you? Toxic waste spills? I assume you're looking primarily at the sites from 30-50 years ago. Those are getting cleaned up and the incedence of it happening has certain dropped tremendously in the last 20 years. Accidents happen (and the results can be tragic) and must be reduced/stopped to every extent possible. But is that a reason to ban the safe use of all chemicals from responsable farmers? If we didn't allow ourselves to make advances (and deal with the consequences and learn from the mistakes) we'd still all be stuck on a farm, eeking out some meager existance (unless you were blessed with a good plot of ground) and having a lifespan of 35 years (e-gads! I'd be dead by now!) > > Have you read any of the studies regarding what's happened to the > Everglades. I know that an article in a newspaper isn't good enough for > you. > > If you ARE an engineer, why don't you take some of your talent and find > ways to undo the pollution that already exists? Why not do some good? > > You're entitled to your opinion and you have it. I totally disagree with > you. Poor dumb old me - reading a newspaper! I just don't know how I'll > live with myself. Newspaper: I'm speaking on my own behalf (as always) - from my own experience from the projects I've been involved with and based on similar discussions on experiences with other people from around the U.S. - there appears to be a serious flaw in the way that newspapers (and TV and radio too for the matter) present information as "fact" and allow so-called "experts" to be quoted as such. If you stop and question virturally everything you hear or read in the media, you'll probably find: 1. There's really not a problem but it's presented as if there is. 2. There really IS a problem but the reporter is to dumb to know what the person they are interviewing is talking about. Rule of thumb: A reporter is a reporter and doesn't know much about anything but reporting what they think they hear. Rick Hoffman, posting for myself. > > DB From brewtim@aol.com Thu May 19 00:08:01 EDT 1994 Article: 32379 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!swidir.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!xlink.net!zib-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: brewtim@aol.com (BrewTim) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Date: 12 May 1994 23:29:04 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 28 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com wrote: > In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water > > supply. > > As far as where do they go - Roundup degrades into harmless > bits rather quickly. I would venture a guess that most things used > according to label directions do not pose that great of an issue. If I were in a flame mood...Roundup is one of the FEW commercial herbacides which degrades within a short period of time. MOST DO NOT. Most insecticides do not. When chlorodane was banned because it realistically never breaks down, the commercial manufacturers switched to Dursban. Now, you see Dursban listed for everything from termite control to lawn insects! Dursban, according to my resident bug-control guy, will last almost 10-15 years in the soil...what doesn't leach out into the ecosystem. Remember "Silent Spring". I have old advertisements which proclaim DDT to be the one cure-all the home gardener needs! There ARE some 'safe' insecticides and herbicides (like rootone, SAFER soaps as insecticides or herbacides, etc). I'd invest a fair amount of time in research (and some reading of organic gardening texts) before using any insecticide or herbacide advertised by the major petro-chemical concerns. From mhg3@cornell.edu Thu May 19 00:08:40 EDT 1994 Article: 32392 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: mhg3@cornell.edu (Mike Griggs) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 13 May 1994 12:33:14 GMT Organization: mhg3@cornell.edu Lines: 49 Sender: mhg3@cornell.edu (Verified) Message-ID: References: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.253.27.139 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com>, brewtim@aol.com (BrewTim) wrote: > In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > wrote: > > > In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org > (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > > > > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water > > > supply. > > If I were in a flame mood...Roundup is one of the FEW commercial herbacides > which degrades within a short period of time. MOST DO NOT. Most insecticides do > not. When chlorodane was banned because it realistically never breaks down, the > commercial manufacturers switched to Dursban. Now, you see Dursban listed for > everything from termite control to lawn insects! Dursban, according to my > resident bug-control guy, will last almost 10-15 years in the soil...what > doesn't leach out into the ecosystem. > Then again cloropyrifros--dursban is derived from and organic source chrysanthimums. Growing this flower to discourage insects is a commom organic technique. One has to be careful with there desire to avoid Toxic chemicals because nature is full of them. Pine trees have turpenoid compounds --very toxic, Parsnips have a chemical that is photoactive and makes DDT seem like candy. Even table salt is extreemely toxic. How many millions of tons of salt were spread over the rust belt this winter? Our lifestyles are such that everyday (if you drive) you come into contact with gasoline fumes or vapors, increased levels of ozone, chlorine(city drinking h20), what about the fumes coming from that new computer? Computers are inherantly NOT GREEN during there manufacture. There are many toxins that we routinely come in contact with and I would suggest that propper use of an insecticide tried and tested as a specific control for an insect problem is better than some of the ignorant activities to avoid there use. One post a while back said they used rubbing alcohol to spray on scales, I'd venture that the toxicity of this is many times that of a properly selected insecticide. Most of the pesticide developers are utilizing chemicals whos structures are found in natural products and then sythesized for inclusion into the product. These insecticides are tried tested and screened for animal and invertibrate toxicity, breakdown products are sometimes tested also. The real issue is perhaps the indiscriminent use of insecticides. There is a bug lets unload seven cans of raid attitude. We need to have more information on what constitutes an insect problem and then utilize the appropriate control measures and these may not include insecticides! Mike Griggs No pesticide should be more harmful than the pest it is designed to control From mhg3@cornell.edu Thu May 19 00:09:21 EDT 1994 Article: 32392 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!news.pop.psu.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!travelers.mail.cornell.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: mhg3@cornell.edu (Mike Griggs) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 13 May 1994 12:33:14 GMT Organization: mhg3@cornell.edu Lines: 49 Sender: mhg3@cornell.edu (Verified) Message-ID: References: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.253.27.139 Status: O X-Status: In article <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com>, brewtim@aol.com (BrewTim) wrote: > In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > wrote: > > > In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org > (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > > > > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water > > > supply. > > If I were in a flame mood...Roundup is one of the FEW commercial herbacides > which degrades within a short period of time. MOST DO NOT. Most insecticides do > not. When chlorodane was banned because it realistically never breaks down, the > commercial manufacturers switched to Dursban. Now, you see Dursban listed for > everything from termite control to lawn insects! Dursban, according to my > resident bug-control guy, will last almost 10-15 years in the soil...what > doesn't leach out into the ecosystem. > Then again cloropyrifros--dursban is derived from and organic source chrysanthimums. Growing this flower to discourage insects is a commom organic technique. One has to be careful with there desire to avoid Toxic chemicals because nature is full of them. Pine trees have turpenoid compounds --very toxic, Parsnips have a chemical that is photoactive and makes DDT seem like candy. Even table salt is extreemely toxic. How many millions of tons of salt were spread over the rust belt this winter? Our lifestyles are such that everyday (if you drive) you come into contact with gasoline fumes or vapors, increased levels of ozone, chlorine(city drinking h20), what about the fumes coming from that new computer? Computers are inherantly NOT GREEN during there manufacture. There are many toxins that we routinely come in contact with and I would suggest that propper use of an insecticide tried and tested as a specific control for an insect problem is better than some of the ignorant activities to avoid there use. One post a while back said they used rubbing alcohol to spray on scales, I'd venture that the toxicity of this is many times that of a properly selected insecticide. Most of the pesticide developers are utilizing chemicals whos structures are found in natural products and then sythesized for inclusion into the product. These insecticides are tried tested and screened for animal and invertibrate toxicity, breakdown products are sometimes tested also. The real issue is perhaps the indiscriminent use of insecticides. There is a bug lets unload seven cans of raid attitude. We need to have more information on what constitutes an insect problem and then utilize the appropriate control measures and these may not include insecticides! Mike Griggs No pesticide should be more harmful than the pest it is designed to control From johng@nova.umd.edu Thu May 19 00:09:39 EDT 1994 Article: 32401 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!nova.umd.edu!not-for-mail From: johng@nova.umd.edu (John Gustafson) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Date: 13 May 1994 10:32:47 -0400 Organization: University of Maryland University College Lines: 13 Message-ID: <2r032f$22h@nova.umd.edu> References: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nova.umd.edu Status: O X-Status: In mhg3@cornell.edu (Mike Griggs) writes: [Much interesting material deleted] >Parsnips have a chemical that is photoactive and makes DDT seem like candy. I guess the good news is that this chemical, while it may be lethal, doesn't make our parsnips taste at all bad. But would you mind elaborating, using however many capital letters and bangs you want? What is this chemical? John From rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Thu May 19 00:10:30 EDT 1994 Article: 32635 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!monsanto.com!bb1t.monsanto.com!rghoff From: rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May16.123213.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> Lines: 64 Sender: news@tin.monsanto.com (USENET News System) Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO References: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 18:32:13 GMT Status: O X-Status: In article <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com>, brewtim@aol.com (BrewTim) writes: > In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com > wrote: > >> In article , dbongiorni@pbs.org > (Diane Bongiorni) writes: > >> > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water >> > supply. >> >> As far as where do they go - Roundup degrades into harmless >> bits rather quickly. I would venture a guess that most things used >> according to label directions do not pose that great of an issue. > > If I were in a flame mood...Roundup is one of the FEW commercial herbacides > which degrades within a short period of time. MOST DO NOT. Most insecticides do > not. Herbicides are not insecticides. Yes, they are both pesticides, but there IS a difference. But the point is that the original poster felt is neccessary to blame ALL pesticides. Nothing is ever that easy... The bottom line for the use of any chemical ("organic" or whatever) is to read and follow label directions. In Missouri (and I'm sure in other states as well) farmers have to be certified to use certain classes of pesticides. When chlorodane was banned because it realistically never breaks down, the > commercial manufacturers switched to Dursban. Now, you see Dursban listed for > everything from termite control to lawn insects! Dursban, according to my > resident bug-control guy, will last almost 10-15 years in the soil...what > doesn't leach out into the ecosystem. > > Remember "Silent Spring". I have old advertisements which proclaim DDT to be > the one cure-all the home gardener needs! > Burst our bubble time: I just recently became aware of a study done in the mid 70's (ok: Scott et al., "Effects of PCBs, DDT and Mercury compound upon egg production, hatchability and shell quality in chickens and japanese quail" Poultry Science 54 (1975) 350-368). Apparently DDT may not have been the culprit causing the problems associated with bird eggs - in this CONTROLLED study, it was the inorganic mercury and methyl mercury chloride (and that's even organic! ;-) that caused problems in their test birds. Certainly suggested reading. But it does stress the need of carefully conducted controlled studies to base the approval and/or ban of any substance that is to be made available commercially. > There ARE some 'safe' insecticides and herbicides (like rootone, SAFER soaps as > insecticides or herbacides, etc). I'd invest a fair amount of time in research > (and some reading of organic gardening texts) before using any insecticide or > herbacide advertised by the major petro-chemical concerns. I just hope these 'safe' pesticides are given the same scrutiny as the others. Otherwise what have we gained? Rick Hoffman, speaking for myself. From allyn@u.washington.edu Thu May 19 00:11:18 EDT 1994 Article: 32529 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!psaltery.chem.washington.edu!user From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:48:59 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: psaltery.chem.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com wrote: > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. Um, this is a big generality. In Japan it's been pretty well demonstrated over the last couple of thousand years that intensive organic farming produces greater _sustainable_ yields than conventional western European chemical/tractor farming, which has done an amazing amount of damage to the soils and water table in just a few hundred years. What is harder to manage organically is the huge scale machine automation. If you do lots of work by hand on smaller plots with hedgerows in between the fields, you get similar or better yields, and can keep it up for millennia. And with unemployment what it is these days, maybe it's time to experiment with attracting more people back into agriculture. -- Allyn Weaks allyn@u.washington.edu From allyn@u.washington.edu Thu May 19 00:12:56 EDT 1994 Article: 32529 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!psaltery.chem.washington.edu!user From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Thu, 12 May 1994 17:48:59 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: psaltery.chem.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May9.113249.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, rghoff@bb1t.monsanto.com wrote: > Keep in mind also that when you go 100% organic, it requires more > land to get similar yields as conventional methods. I don't see how > putting even more land into cultivation (some sources say up to 2x) > can really be considered taking care of the earth. I'll stick with > high yield crops and responsible use of available technologies. Um, this is a big generality. In Japan it's been pretty well demonstrated over the last couple of thousand years that intensive organic farming produces greater _sustainable_ yields than conventional western European chemical/tractor farming, which has done an amazing amount of damage to the soils and water table in just a few hundred years. What is harder to manage organically is the huge scale machine automation. If you do lots of work by hand on smaller plots with hedgerows in between the fields, you get similar or better yields, and can keep it up for millennia. And with unemployment what it is these days, maybe it's time to experiment with attracting more people back into agriculture. -- Allyn Weaks allyn@u.washington.edu From allyn@u.washington.edu Thu May 19 00:15:33 EDT 1994 Article: 32691 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!news.clark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!psaltery.chem.washington.edu!user From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 17:23:51 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: psaltery.chem.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , mem7c@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Michael E. Matthews) wrote: > Don't use Japan as as example of the wonders of organic > gardening. Good or bad, they use lots of herbicides, > pesticides, chemical fertilizers, machinery, new strains of > rice, and havexD as long as anywhere else has. Yes, they now mostly farm the western european way, but basically only since World War II. This includes not only chemicals, but heavy tillage, and very large fields - no hedgerows to get in the way of tractors, but therefore nothing to give habitat to birds and predatory insects to keep down pests. Small fields also help prevent wide spread crop disease. > Ancient Japanese agriculture was not so productive. Most > people never tasted rice, for example. They were required to > grow it to pay as taxes, but could not afford to grow it for > themselves. They barely subsisted. Just because the serfs weren't allowed to eat the fruits of their labor doesn't mean there weren't any. Serfdom as a political system is unrelated to the biology of agriculture. The point is that in Japan and China there are plots of agricultural land that have been in continuous intense production, supporting a fairly large population, for at least a couple of thousand years with no reduction of fertility. That land is now beginning to rapidly lose that fertility since the introduction of western farming techniques after WWII. The modern techniques do give a short term payoff - high productivity (but not necessarily higher) with much less hand labor. But as we are beginning to discover, the price is also very high: loss of topsoil and fertility, contamination of the water table and loss of genetic diversity in the crops (hybrids now rule). -- Allyn Weaks allyn@u.washington.edu From markw@hpcss01.cup.hp.com Thu May 19 00:15:44 EDT 1994 Article: 32793 of rec.gardens From: markw@hpcss01.cup.hp.com (Mark Williams) Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 16:59:32 GMT Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <22030002@hpcss01.cup.hp.com> Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!news.dtc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcss01!markw Newsgroups: rec.gardens References: Lines: 19 Status: O X-Status: My daughter works in the greenhouse at an agricultural college (UC Davis). They are moving more and more to insect predators for control of pests. The reason is that insecticides wipe out the beneficial insects just as they do the the harmful ones, and (guess what) the harmful ones come back more quickly, so you need more insecticides, and so on. (And the paperwork required to apply the hazardous materials is just too much effort.) The truth is that the pesticides just don't work as well as maintaining a balanced population of insects, and using predators as controls. The guy in charge of raising the predators has an interesting problem: he has to maintain a zoo of food insects for them, the very pests the insects are meant to control. It is an awful sight for a gardener to view. There is an odd parallel here between the overuse of insecticides and the overuse of antibiotics in medical treatment. It seems that more and more diseases are mutating to become resistant to the latest antibiotics, partly because of overuse of antibiotics by doctors. New strains of terrible diseases are emerging, which are resistant to all known drugs. There is no quick chemical fix in sight... From nedehn@artsci.wustl.edu Thu May 19 01:12:27 EDT 1994 Article: 32381 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!corpgate!news.utdallas.edu!wupost!bigfoot.wustl.edu!mulberry!nedehn From: nedehn@artsci.wustl.edu (Natasha Elizabeth Dehn) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Source for Beneficial Nematodes? Date: 13 May 1994 03:41:28 GMT Organization: College of Arts and Sciences -- Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri, USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <2qust8$o2d@bigfoot.wustl.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mulberry.wustl.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Marty Zimmerman (cazimme@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov) wrote: : Does anyone know of a mail order source for Beneficial Nematodes? I tried : Gardens Alive! but they are out of them. The black vine weevils murdered : two yews last year and they'll get more this year if I don't do something : soon. I replaced one of last year's fatalities with a gooseberry bush. I'd : like to eat the berries this year, which means no nasty chemicals. FYI, the : weevils do most of their damage as grubs, chewing the roots of yews, rhodos : & azaleas, so I need to get them in the soil. : Thanks : Marty : _____________________________________________________________________________ : Marty Zimmerman cazimme@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov : Analex Corp. - NASA Lewis Research Center : Cleveland, Ohio USA Zone 6 (ok maybe Zone 5 - I live on the line) Have no idea if they've got any in stock, but The Bug Store sells nematodes--$15/million, $35/3 million, etc., + shipping. The address is 4472 Shaw Blvd., St.Louis MO 63110, telephone is (314) 773-7374. It's a cool store and they seem to be nice people. Haven't bought any bugs there yet, but it's beginning to look as if I may have to buy some lacewings..... From daniel.mascheck@yob.com Thu May 19 01:14:24 EDT 1994 Article: 32745 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!nuchat!yob!daniel.mascheck From: daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: About Killing Things/Orga Message-ID: <1900.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: 13 May 94 12:09:00 GMT Distribution: world Organization: Ye Olde Bailey BBS - Houston, TX - 713-520-1569 Reply-To: daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) Lines: 60 Status: O X-Status: HF.O.k. My two cents. My family has and all ways will be farmers of one type .or another. From up to a thousand to five acres of land. Half of us are .organic and half of us are not. I believe that over the years we have all .had our more than fair share of success. With some crops and plants better .than others. But, what has caught our eyes and interest is that there are .large amount of Amish, that do only Organic crop farming and are making a .profit, while other farmers with non-organic, modern methods are losing .thier livelyhood. Slowly, all farmers in our family are pulling towards .organic and less modern methods....It may be a whole lot harder and a whole .lot more time consuming BUT My children can get involved... THAT pleases me .to no end. They get to release the lady bugs to eat the aphids.. They are .learning that MODERN is not always best in all situations... I realize .that there are going to be people that dis-agree but, hey.. my two cents... I've known several Amish families. VERY GOOD FOLKS! But remember their lifestyles are totally different from our own. I respect their beliefs, and if times get hard, they'll be in the best of shape. But...........I don't wish to give up all this modern technology, AKA TV, computers. AC, etc.. If we plan on 50% of our population moving back to the old style family farm, raise horses, hogs, chickens, dogs, not to mention the crops to feed them. I think the refuse from the animals alone would swamp our organic needs. Also remember you will also need about 10 to twelve children to help with chores on the farm. I still remember those days! I rember the ole out house and taking a bath in a number three washtub! No Thanks. I believe in PROGRESS not REGRESS.(SMILE) I also remember years with crop failures due to insects. and disease, I can tell you all about not making a thin dime for lack of crop due to some unforseen pestilence. Many people need to look in their dictionary before they talk about organic this and that. Anything with carbon atoms are classed as organic compounds. Heck! I remember that from ole College Organic Chemistry. And....Most Ag. pesticides contain Carbon! Last but not least, today's consumer, demand produce free of blemish quality "YEAR ROUND". You can't consistantly do that with your ideals of organic farming. Our Govt. is legislating Agriculture out of existance! Where do you plan on getting all the food? From Mexico, or South America?....Where they have fewer regulations. If you think the U.S.D.A. inspectors will find tainted food being imported into this country, I'm afraid you'll be in for a surprise!(GRIN) Have a good one!!!1 Dan . --- . 1st 1.01 #14 . And Awaaaay we go!!!!! ---- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Ye Olde Bailey BBS Zyxel 713-520-1569(V.32bis) Hayes 713-520-9566 (V.FC)| | Houston,Texas yob.com Home of alt.cosuard | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From rehrauer@apollo.hp.com Thu May 19 01:16:20 EDT 1994 Article: 32775 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!netnews From: rehrauer@apollo.hp.com (Steve Rehrauer) Subject: Re: About Killing Things/Orga Sender: usenet@apollo.hp.com (Usenet News) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 17:02:00 GMT References: <1900.320.uupcb@yob.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: jurassic.ch.apollo.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA Lines: 97 Status: O X-Status: In article <1900.320.uupcb@yob.com> daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) writes: >I've known several Amish families. VERY GOOD FOLKS! But remember >their lifestyles are totally different from our own. I respect their >beliefs, and if times get hard, they'll be in the best of shape. >But...........I don't wish to give up all this modern technology, AKA >TV, computers. AC, etc.. Nor do I. :-/ >If we plan on 50% of our population moving back to the old style >family farm, raise horses, hogs, chickens, dogs, not to mention the >crops to feed them. I think the refuse from the animals alone would >swamp our organic needs. Actually, I rather doubt this point. A couple of years ago, I made an interesting find in a used bookstore: a bound volume of a year's worth of a monthly magazine named The New England Farmer; the 1867 edition, if memory serves. (Recent post-Civil War, at any rate.) What I found most fascinating was that it's evident from this publication that this period was just beginning to see introduction of synthetic fertilizers to farmers. And, that the farmers of that time were skeptical of their cost-effectiveness. A large number of articles and letters from readers were devoted to discussions of the relative merits of well-composted manure versus "bone flour" (what we'd call bone meal today) and "super phosphates". Most farmers who'd tried the synthetics seemed of the opinion that anyone who'd maintained their lands and practiced crop rotation and allowed fields to go fallow so as not to exhaust their soils probably didn't need them. These folks were practicing mainstream agriculture of their time, and yet the tone of the articles and editorials would be familiar to modern readers of Organic Gardening. Very interesting. Anyways, what really surprised me was the near-reverence often expressed for cows and oxen as _sources of manure_. Far from having a surplus of manure, most farmers of the time needed all they could get, and then some. Several articles mentioned "mucking out" swampy areas and stagnant ponds as a good source of fertilizer for one's fields. Numerous articles discussed the best methods of composting and keeping manure, even of catching any and all liquid "runoff" from manure heaps. > Also remember you will also need about 10 >to twelve children to help with chores on the farm. I still remember >those days! I rember the ole out house and taking a bath in a number >three washtub! No Thanks. I believe in PROGRESS not REGRESS.(SMILE) No arguments that more manual labor is needed. And I'm sure we agree that there's probably not enough arable land available for our urban and suburban populations to return to this lifestyle anyways. >I also remember years with crop failures due to insects. and disease, >I can tell you all about not making a thin dime for lack of crop due to >some unforseen pestilence. I can also tell you about people killed or sent to the hospital from mishandling pesticides or herbicides. Or killed or maimed in accidents with power equipment (ask me about a classmate who's long hair was snagged by a PTO shaft, and had most of her scalp yanked off). And then you could tell me about people who died of scurvy, or were eaten by locusts; what's the point? >Many people need to look in their dictionary before they talk about >organic this and that. Anything with carbon atoms are classed as >organic compounds. Heck! I remember that from ole College Organic >Chemistry. And....Most Ag. pesticides contain Carbon! What I'd like is for both "sides" to set aside the rhetoric, and simply determine what combination of synthetics (fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides, etc), "organics" (manure, green-manure crops, beneficial insects, etc) and land management techniques can produce good food that is safe to eat (residue free), doesn't exhaust the land to produce it, and doesn't require me to quit my suburban lifestyle to raise it myself. :-/ I'd be willing to bet next century's farming techniques will have more resemblance, on the surface at least, to last century's than this one's. >Last but not least, today's consumer, demand produce free of blemish >quality "YEAR ROUND". You can't consistantly do that with your ideals >of organic farming. Our Govt. is legislating Agriculture out of >existance! Where do you plan on getting all the food? From Mexico, or >South America?....Where they have fewer regulations. If you think the >U.S.D.A. inspectors will find tainted food being imported into this >country, I'm afraid you'll be in for a surprise!(GRIN) Our desire for "cosmetically perfect" produce *IS* a big problem. I'm told that Europe is much less dazzled by the skin than by the taste of what's beneath it; pity that's not so here. BTW, if anyone has copies of other years of The New England Farmer, or any other farming/gardening periodicals of the last century, I'd like to hear from you. -- "I feel lightheaded, Sam. I think my brain | Steve rehrauer@apollo.hp.com is out of air. But it's kind of a neat | /HP/org/chart/says/you/are/here feeling..." --Freelance Police | Massachusetts Language Lab From Thu May 19 01:17:52 EDT 1994 Article: 32409 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.den.mmc.com!NewsWatcher!user From: (S.Hastings) Subject: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com> Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: news@den.mmc.com (News Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: 160.205.44.27 Organization: Wolf359. Date: Fri, 13 May 1994 15:51:59 GMT Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: I have been in my garden for the past few weeks, preparing the soil and setting out seedlings. My garden area sits on a slope and has several 1 to 2 foot tall granite retianing walls to terrace the slope. In my time in the garden, I have seen several(4 or 5) HUGE (anterior appx. marble sized or dime-sized) black widows living in and around these walls. I know this is perfect habitat and they do control insect populations. However, I am concerned that the more time I spend gardening, the greater risk I have of receiving that unfavorable "love-bite". Is there a kind way of controlling their population (snakes, toads, etc.) or is it up to me to seek and destroy with heavy leather gloves and pant legs tightly cuffed? Please post some information about the threat and habbits of black widow spiders and possible means of controlling them. You may also mail replies to: Stephen.L.Compton@everest.den.mmc.com From br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Thu May 19 01:18:39 EDT 1994 Article: 32434 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!br105 From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Date: 13 May 1994 18:22:50 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 33 Message-ID: <2r0ghq$rjh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> References: <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com> Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) NNTP-Posting-Host: nextsun.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, (S.Hastings) () says: >I have been in my garden for the past few weeks, preparing the soil and >setting out seedlings. My garden area sits on a slope and has several 1 to >2 foot tall granite retianing walls to terrace the slope. In my time in >the garden, I have seen several(4 or 5) HUGE (anterior appx. marble sized >or dime-sized) black widows living in and around these walls. I know this >is perfect habitat and they do control insect populations. However, I am >concerned that the more time I spend gardening, the greater risk I have of >receiving that unfavorable "love-bite". Is there a kind way of controlling >their population (snakes, toads, etc.) or is it up to me to seek and >destroy with heavy leather gloves and pant legs tightly cuffed? If you get bitten by one of them (if they really are black widows) you will learn the true meaning of the phrase "excruciating pain" and run a 5% chance of dying from the bite. Don't handle the damned things, whatever you do. This sounds like a job for Sevin or some other short-lived pesticide. The presence of black widows is a real menace if you hope to spend any time at all gardening. Forget about their role in controlling insects; they might control you, permanently. (One of my students was bitten by a black widow last year; she says she'd almost rather have died than gone through that agony) J. Del Col -- Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics. A-B College * Be there." Philippi, WV * * ----Charles Simic---- From Galatia.9@debug.cuc.ab.ca Thu May 19 01:19:13 EDT 1994 Article: 32550 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!psgrain!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!quartz.ucs.ualberta.ca!acs.ucalgary.ca!cpsc.ucalgary.ca!debug!Galatia.9 From: Galatia.9@debug.cuc.ab.ca (Robin and Ennien Ashbrook) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Organization: Debug Computer Services Date: Sun, 15 May 1994 03:52:15 GMT Message-ID: <1994May15.035215.25515@debug.cuc.ab.ca> References: <2r0ghq$rjh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Lines: 45 Status: O X-Status: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes: > > In a previous article, (S.Hastings) () says: > > >I have been in my garden for the past few weeks, preparing the soil and > >setting out seedlings. My garden area sits on a slope and has several 1 to > >2 foot tall granite retianing walls to terrace the slope. In my time in > >the garden, I have seen several(4 or 5) HUGE (anterior appx. marble sized > >or dime-sized) black widows living in and around these walls. I know this > >is perfect habitat and they do control insect populations. However, I am > >concerned that the more time I spend gardening, the greater risk I have of > >receiving that unfavorable "love-bite". Is there a kind way of controlling > >their population (snakes, toads, etc.) or is it up to me to seek and > >destroy with heavy leather gloves and pant legs tightly cuffed? > > If you get bitten by one of them (if they really are black widows) you > will learn the true meaning of the phrase "excruciating pain" > and run a 5% chance of dying from the bite. Don't handle the damned things, > whatever you do. > > This sounds like a job for Sevin or some other short-lived pesticide. > The presence of black widows is a real menace if you hope to spend any > time at all gardening. Forget about their role in controlling insects; > they might control you, permanently. > > (One of my students was bitten by a black widow last year; she says > she'd almost rather have died than gone through that agony) > I have to agree -- don't mess with them physically. Unfortunatly I can't name any pesticides that kill widows but I know they're out there. The ones here in Calgary are "about as dangerous as a wasp sting" (and about as painful!) but the ones I grew up with were considerably more dangerous, having venom that could kill a baby and paralyse an adult's limb if untreated. As a result of having these as the "common garden spider", I'm now a real arachnophobe, which makes gardening a death-defying adventure ;) -==- Ennien -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | Ennein & Robin Ashbrook | | | Internet: Galatia.9@Debug.cuc.ab.ca | " To each, their own. " | | UUCP: calgary!debug!galatia.9 | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From gwv@sequoia.cray.com Thu May 19 01:20:21 EDT 1994 Article: 32688 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!cdsmail!timbuk.cray.com!driftwood.cray.com!gwv From: gwv@sequoia.cray.com (George Walter VandenBerghe) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: <1994May16.151046.5800@driftwood.cray.com> Originator: gwv@sequoia Lines: 39 Sender: gwv@sequoia (George Walter VandenBerghe) Nntp-Posting-Host: sequoia Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2r0ghq$rjh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1994May15.035215.25515@debug.cuc.ab.ca> <1994May16.153234.11222@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: 16 May 94 15:10:46 CDT Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May16.153234.11222@pmafire.inel.gov>, kkv@lewis (Jamie J Ferguson) writes: > > I've only seen one black widow since we moved to Idaho, although > I'm sure there are more lurking around out of sight... (yuck) > The one we found is in the place where our sprinkler valves are, > in the ground under a metal plate. It ran away before we could > do anything -- if we spray something there will the spider die, > or do we have to spray on the spider? I've killed cockroaches > and things in Florida and we either used spray on the bugs or > put out roach motels, but I don't know for sure how to kill > black widows. Also, do they tend to prefer places like where > our sprinkler valves are instead of wandering around? We have > 5 dogs and 4 cats, and I don't want any of them to get bit by > just being out in the yard. > > The only other spiders I've seen have been various garden > spiders -- at least thats what I call them because they are > all over my garden. I figure they are eating something else > that I might not want to see, and besides these spiders > don't seem to be harmful. > > Jamie > > For what it's worth, Black Widows are much more common in the South than in the North but they do occur all over the U.S. They prefer dank dark places such as holes in the ground, drainage pipes, woodpiles, sump pump sumps, and (yes) sprinkler valve enclosures. A very common outdoor habitat is privies and anyone who uses a privy should look for them before sitting down. I hesitate to advocate the blanket slaughter philosophy but these spiders ARE dangerous to you and your pets. You probably need to hit them with the spray to make sure they are dead. BTW the only place I ever saw one was Florida in a Tallahassee drain pipe. From br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Thu May 19 01:22:48 EDT 1994 Article: 32640 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!br105 From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Date: 16 May 1994 18:15:22 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 38 Message-ID: <2r8d7q$bjs@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> References: <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com> Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) NNTP-Posting-Host: nextsun.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, adamson@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Ann.Adamson) says: > >Has anyone out there been bitten by a black widow or know the symptoms >of a black widow bite? I would be interested in hearing from you... >recently while visiting a garden I was bitten by *something* and we >suspect it may have been a black widow. I won't go into the gory details >;^) but suffice it to say that I'm not allergic to any other insect bites >but I certainly had a reaction to this one! Anyway, if anyone has any >info to share it would save me a trip to the library... I've never been bitten by one, but I know people who have been. The symptoms can vary depending on the amount and potency of venom and the person's sensitivity to it. However, all bites by the southern black widow (Latrodectus mactans) produce severe pain. The bitten limb may go numb. Nausea and profuse sweating are also common. The muscles of the abdomen may go into a very painful spasm and become as rigid as a board. If you are very unlucky and very sensitive, the venom may paralyze the diaphragm and you will be in danger of suffocating. The Shady Ladies are not to be trifled with. The bite from the Brown Recluse (Loxosceles reclusa{I think}) produces an ugly, ever-deepening eschar that eats through the skin and surrounding tissue as long as any of the toxic proteins remain in the bite. It can also produce cardiac arrhythmias that be fatal, but this occurs mostly in elderly or ill victims. J. Del Col -- Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics. A-B College * Be there." Philippi, WV * * ----Charles Simic---- From leb@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu Thu May 19 01:23:35 EDT 1994 Article: 32717 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu!leb From: leb@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (BASEL, LESLIE) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Date: 16 May 1994 23:16 MST Organization: University of Arizona Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <16MAY199423161625@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> References: <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41 Status: O X-Status: In article , Ann.Adamson@ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM writes... >In article <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com>, (S.Hastings) writes >Has anyone out there been bitten by a black widow or know the symptoms >of a black widow bite? I would be interested in hearing from you... A friend of mine was bitten, and in Arizona the symptoms are common knowledge. Gutbusting, wish you could die stomach cramps starting about 1-2 hrs after being bitten, lasting for 12-36 hours. If any- body is interested, I'll call the Poison Control center for symptoms and treatment. From what I understand, you _know_ when you are bitten. BTW, if you are going to seek and destroy, you might as well call in a professional exterminator. They bite only when they are provoked, and a seek and destroy mission *qualifies*. Don't mess around, if they are BW's, and you want them gone, this is no place for amateurs. Leslie leb@ccit.arizona.edu From ksc@netcom.com Thu May 19 01:24:31 EDT 1994 Article: 32763 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!news.hal.COM!decwrl!netcomsv!netcom.com!ksc From: ksc@netcom.com (KnowledgeSet Corp) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <1994May13.155159.628@den.mmc.com> <16MAY199423161625@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu> Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 15:31:22 GMT Lines: 21 Status: O X-Status: I was bitten by a black widow that was lurking on the far side of my retaining wall (wooden), nestled under the sweet-100 tomatoe vines. As it happens it was a male, which you don't normally get to see because only the ones that are dismal failures at propogating their genes hang around for very long. I have heard that the venom of the males is weaker. I can't say whether that is true; I felt pretty awful, but from what I've heard and given my general sensitivity to insect bites, maybe it's so. Anyway, I got a huge red weal at the site of the bite, my whole arm ached for three days, and I had flu-like symptoms for a day and a half (fever, sweats, a little bit of nausea/cramps, but not too bad). These suckers are nasty! My understanding is that they won't kill you unless you are a little kid (maybe) -- Mary you can be sure I look before I pick tomatoes now Holstege@kset.com From tomwa@jsbus.com Thu May 19 01:26:55 EDT 1994 Article: 32667 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!caen!batcomputer!hookup!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!zip.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!jsbus From: jsbus@netcom.com (JSB Corp) Subject: Re: Organic Drip Irrigation w/o Siphon? Message-ID: Reply-To: tomwa@jsbus.com Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) References: Date: Mon, 16 May 1994 21:52:11 GMT Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: mcgrew@rahul.net (Darin McGrew) writes: >I've encountered an irrigation technology problem. >Following the advice in _Jeff Ball's 60-Minute Vegetable Garden_, we set up >a drip irrigation system (emitters in polyethylene pipe) with a Hyponex (...) Do you have a sump pump around? You can fill a trash can with water, add fish emulsion, put the sump pump in the trash can and divert the output to your drip system. -Tom \ From alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com Thu May 19 01:28:05 EDT 1994 Article: 32641 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!bounce-back From: alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com (Al Harrington) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens Subject: RFD: rec.gardens.roses Followup-To: news.groups Date: 16 May 1994 14:29:44 -0400 Organization: Hewlett Packard Roseville Site Lines: 42 Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net Message-ID: <2r8e2o$5dt@rodan.UU.NET> NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu news.announce.newgroups:4277 news.groups:80093 rec.gardens:32641 Status: O X-Status: Request For Discussion ---------------------- Group Name: rec.gardens.roses Status: unmoderated Newsgroups Line: Discussion and appreciation of roses Proposed by: Al Harrington alh@hprnd.rose.hp.com Charter ------- Discussion of planting, maintaining and pruning Roses. Included will be discussions of the numerous varieties, their growth habits and styles. Group Rationale --------------- Right now rose related discussion takes place in rec.gardens. Roses are one of the most popular plants in the world - enough to have their own society (American Rose Society) and several periodicals (such as American Rose). Considering the number of varieties of roses, literally thousands, and the (potential) complexity involved with roses, there is a strong desire to move these discussions into their own group. Other Information ----------------- Soon after the group is created a FAQ will be developed. I am also working on the idea of creating a Mosaic based Rose Encyclopedia that would contain pictures and detailed descriptions of roses. The logistics for this are still being worked out. Cross Postings -------------- This message is being posted to rec.gardens, news.announce.newgroups and news.groups. Voting ------ Voting will be handled by a independent third party. From boswell@vnet.ibm.com Thu May 19 01:28:50 EDT 1994 Article: 32751 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!doc.ic.ac.uk!aixssc.uk.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!sernews.raleigh.ibm.com!boswell.raleigh.ibm.com!boswell From: boswell@boswell.raleigh.ibm.com (Marvin Boswell) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Apple SEX Date: 17 May 1994 13:02:02 GMT Organization: AIX Network Management Development Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2raf8a$kfb@sernews.raleigh.ibm.com> References: <50.17917.1066.0N0089B8@freddy.supernet.ab.ca> Reply-To: boswell@vnet.ibm.com NNTP-Posting-Host: boswell.raleigh.ibm.com Status: O X-Status: In article <50.17917.1066.0N0089B8@freddy.supernet.ab.ca>, kevan.farrah@freddy.supernet.ab.ca (Kevan Farrah) writes: |> If a person took cuttings from an apple tree and rooted them, and then |> when the original apple tree flowered and the cutting flowered, would |> they cross-pollinate? No, your cutting is a clone of the original, so brings nothing extra to the potential liaison. Apples are generally not very narcissistic, and need a completely different apple to cross-pollinate. A good nursery or this list could tell you the varieties that would make a good cross pollinator if you tell us your apple variety. -- Marvin Boswell Internet: boswell@vnet.ibm.com Gardening in: Apex, North Carolina USDA Zone 7b From voting@qualcomm.com Thu May 19 01:29:50 EDT 1994 Article: 32696 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!bounce-back From: rdippold@qualcomm.com (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold) Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens Subject: 2nd CFV: rec.gardens.orchids Supersedes: Followup-To: poster Date: 16 May 1994 21:49:59 -0400 Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers Lines: 51 Sender: tale@uunet.uu.net Approved: tale@uunet.uu.net Expires: 31 May 1994 00:00:00 GMT Message-ID: References: Reply-To: voting@qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold Voting Alias) NNTP-Posting-Host: rodan.uu.net Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu news.announce.newgroups:4296 news.groups:80190 rec.gardens:32696 Status: O X-Status: LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2) unmoderated group rec.gardens.orchids Newsgroups line: rec.gardens.orchids Growing, hybridizing, and general care of orchids. Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 May 1994. After this CFV appears on news.announce.newgroups it will be sent to the mailing list . This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. For voting questions only contact rdippold@qualcomm.com. For questions about the proposed group contact Bob Hill . CHARTER This group is designed to allow orchid hobbyists to discuss orchid types, cultivation and propagation techniques, and orchid events. Questions ranging from very simple (what is an orchid?) to very complex and scientific are welcomed. Discussion should be limited to orchids, with discussion of bromeliads and other epiphytes also acceptable. Orchid growing areas (greenhouses, outdoor conditions) are also an acceptable topic of discussion. HOW TO VOTE Send MAIL to: voting@qualcomm.com Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list. Your mail message should contain one of the following statements: I vote YES on rec.gardens.orchids I vote NO on rec.gardens.orchids You may also ABSTAIN in place of YES/NO - this will not affect the outcome. Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program. The votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge- ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again. It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly. One vote counted per person, no more than one per account. Addresses and votes of all voters will be published in the final voting results list. rec.gardens.orchids Bounce List - No need to revote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No bounced votes at this time From f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Thu May 19 01:30:10 EDT 1994 Article: 32707 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Aerobic (Spray) Wastewater and Gardens ?? Message-ID: <1994May16.215344.8851@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> From: Ron Rushing Date: 16 May 94 21:53:43 CST Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: 144.96.241.50 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2X-XXDate: Mon, 16 May 1994 21:55:56 GMTLines: 20 Lines: 20 Status: O X-Status: We're installing an aerobic (sometimes called a jet spray) wastewares system at our new home. The land will not support a conventional septic tank system. The layout of the system lends itself to an area we thought of a food/flower garden spot. This area would receive some of the processed spray as well as the water as it soaks into the ground. Will plants (food and flowers) grow in such conditions ? Are there any problems with eating the food from such an area ? Also, can anyone point me to a article discussing these types of systems ? I've searched several databases w/o success. Thanks-- Ron Rushing Technology Coordinator Stephen F. Austin State University Nacogdoches, TX f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Disclaimer: "Its alright-- Its only me" From scd@atria.com Fri May 20 00:55:03 EDT 1994 Article: 32881 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2r0ghq$rjh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1994May15.035215.25515@debug.cuc.ab.ca> Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 12:54:44 GMT Lines: 52 Status: O X-Status: Julian Cash (jcash@netcom.com) wrote: : I'm screaming and swatting at myself as I read your post. : And I don't even have spiders in the yard. A sympathetic " YEEEEEEEEEE!" : is all I can offer you. Please protect yourself. And, hey, just in : case, get the number of your local poison control center now. It saves : time looking it up if anything unfortunate should happen. Maybe they : even have some anti-venom ( is there anti-venom for spiders? ) that : you could obtain in advance. And teach the kids to avoid them, if you : have any kids. : ******************************************************************** : JACKJACK HAVING A STEREOTYPICAL GIRLIE REACTION : This is the first post that opens the door to "treatment" of bites. I thought I would offer some advice... The number of the local poison control center will be useless in these cases. (They will simply tell you to call 911 or equivalent.) Insect bites (of all sorts) can only be handled by the ER - even Paramendics do not carry anti-venom. Anti-venom is at least as dangerous as the poison involved and is usually fatal when improperly used (its also very expensive and requires controlled storage)! There is no home remedy for bites that carry venom. In fact, the old "cut a cross and suck" procedure is _not_ the thing to do in any case of a bite. Nor is using hot or cold water or other "treatments." The best thing to do is keep the bite below the level of the heart, use a constriction band (e.g., something tied around the limb such that two fingers can get beneath without much trouble) above and below the bite to stop venus blood flow, and transport to the nearest hospital asap. If at all possible, bring the insect with you for difinitive identification (even if it is squashed). Most insect bites will not caue problems, or cause only a local reaction. When in doubt, call 911 and be explicit about having a bite and what kind of "bug" is was (did it crawl, fly, swim, etc..). Trust me, this type of responce is always a priority responce. The only home treatment for bites is for bee/wasp stings and the individual must have permission to carry the drug. Most states don't even allow advanced EMTs to administer it. As far as "Balck Widow" bites/habitats, etc., I have seen some information posted that I am not so sure is accurate. I will post a follow-up after I dig out my medical references on insects bites and the like. By the way, it is very difficult to die from a black-widow bite. It is also equally improbable that any permanent damage will be done, providing you get medical attention asap. Regards, Steve -- From london@ladybird Fri May 20 00:55:54 EDT 1994 Article: 32868 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!ladybird!london From: london@ladybird (Larry London) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Date: 19 May 1994 15:59:59 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill Lines: 428 Message-ID: <2rg2dv$di9@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <2qus60$ot8@search01.news.aol.com> <1994May16.123213.1@bb1t.monsanto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladybird.oit.unc.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May16.123213.1@bb1t.monsanto.com>, wrote: >>> > Pesticides, herbicides, where do they go? Into the soil and the water >>> > supply. >>> >>> As far as where do they go - Roundup degrades into harmless >>> bits rather quickly. I would venture a guess that most things used >>> according to label directions do not pose that great of an issue. See below. >> If I were in a flame mood...Roundup is one of the FEW commercial herbacides >> which degrades within a short period of time. MOST DO NOT. Most >> insecticides do not. > > Herbicides are not insecticides. Yes, they are both pesticides, but > there IS a difference. > > But the point is that the original poster felt is neccessary to > blame ALL pesticides. Nothing is ever that easy... > > The bottom line for the use of any chemical ("organic" or whatever) > is to read and follow label directions. In Missouri (and I'm > sure in other states as well) farmers have to be certified to > use certain classes of pesticides. = = = Newsgroups: rec.gardens From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) Subject: Re: RoundUp (tm) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1993 16:53:17 GMT >From threads in rec.gardens: ---------------------------- >>This is confused. Roundup (glyphosate) blocks an enzyme that appears >>only in plants. It has low toxicity for animals, and has not >>been shown to be carcinogenic or mutagenic. Moreover, it is not >>persistent; it is inactivated in soil in a short time, by binding >>to clay and bacterial breakdown. One can plant in Roundup-treated >>soil without waiting a year. It is used as a pre-planting >>herbicide in agriculture. >This is exactly correct. Roundup is a post-emergent herbicide. It soaks >into the plant through the leaves (or needles) and inhibits the >some rather important bio-chemical processes. It is non-selective, and will >kill any plant. It is least effective on plants with waxy leaves (or >needles) only because of the wetting agents used. The leaf coating >reduces absorption of the glyphosphate. If you up the concentration, >the plant will die. >It binds with the soil and becomes inert. >You can plant in roundup areas immediately. >Incidentally, the patent for glyphosphate has recently expired, and several >clone products have appeared. CIL Clear-It-2 is glyphosphate based >as well. (CIL is now owned by ICI) Article 5620 (4 more) in rec.gardens: From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu ubject: Re: Killing Ivy Date: 5 Mar 92 17:14:37 GMT > I have about 1,000 square feet of ivy that needs killing > along the back fence of my property. I agree with the folks who suggested Roundup (or Kleenup, or some other brand of glyphosate). It is a non-selective herbicide, meaning that it kills almost anything it touches, but it has VERY low toxicity to anything that doesn't photosynthesize (like birds, insects, mammals...) Glyphosate is sprayed on the leaves, but is translocated to the roots, killing them too. You'll have to wait until the plants are beginning to show some new growth (almost any herbicide works better on actively growing plants) -- you might even want to fertilize and water your ivy to get it growing well before you kill it! Spray the leaves with the recommended concentration of glyphosate, then wait. As soon as the leaves start dying back (maybe 10 days?), you can assume that enough has hit the roots that you can cut out the top growth and remove it. At this point, I'd leave the soil bare for about a month and continue to water -- that way you can spot any new ivy shoots that might have accidentally survived the first dose, and hit'em again. After a month you can replant with whatever. When I spray with glyphosate, I wear gloves and a long sleeved shirt and long pants because some of the "inert" ingredients in most formulations can give you a skin rash. I wear a mask, too, since I'm asthmatic, and just about any particulates can set me coughing. Even a bandana over my nose is enough. I also mix up a bucket of water and a shovel full of soil, and keep it handy. Why? Glyphosate binds so tightly to soil particles that you can save any plant that gets hit accidentally by throwing some muddy water on it immediately. You can replant an area that has been treated with glyphosate immediately, since it does irreversibly bind to soil particles. And it breaks down to glycine (an amino acid) and phosphate (fertilizer component) in the soil fairly quickly -- how fast depends on which soil microorganisms you have in abundance. Glyphosate can also be applied with a paintbrush or cloth glove over a rubber glove if you're worried about spray drift. Just takes longer. Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI PS I'm pretty cautious about herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc. The only herbicides I will use are glyphosate or boiling water (or hoes, etc.) I don't have the toxicity information immediately at hand, but you can poison yourself with aspirin 5x more easily than with glyphosate. Article 5682 (6 more) in rec.gardens: From: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) ubject: Re: Killing Ivy Date: 7 Mar 92 17:37:31 GMT In article <1992Mar5.111437.2700@iscsvax.uni.edu> klier@iscsvax.uni.edu writes: >PS I'm pretty cautious about herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc. >The only herbicides I will use are glyphosate or boiling water (or hoes, >etc.) I don't have the toxicity information immediately at hand, but >you can poison yourself with aspirin 5x more easily than with glyphosate. Ingesting Roundup has killed people. I seems that the surfactant is more toxic than the glyphosate itself. There was a lengthy article posted here many months ago. I'll try to dig it up and repost. Andy Article 5683 (5 more) in rec.gardens: From: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) Subject: Roundup Toxicity, was Re: Killing Ivy Date: 7 Mar 92 17:46:02 GMT Reply-To: aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) Here is the previously posted article on Roundup. Andy ---- >From: brokaw@flamingo.weeg.uiowa.edu (Pete Brokaw) >Newsgroups: rec.gardens >Subject: Re: Is Roundup safe? (LONG reply) >Date: 29 Apr 91 20:58:41 GMT ... I recently asked a friend the same questions and she gave me copies of some magazine articles. One deals primarily with the issue of "inert" ingredients in chemical concoctions like Roundup. This was printed in the "Journal of Pesticide Reform." A second article was very anti-Roundup but had very little in the way of facts, relying on anecdotal accounts. (e.g., "A twenty-eight-year-old laborer who had sprayed weeds with the recommended dosage of Roundup developed an itchy rash, nausea, and swelling of the limbs and joints." No evidence was provided to back up this or the other claims made.) The third article came from the Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides (NCAP). Written in 1987, it defines Roundup and lists 8 problems that "warrent concern when [it] is considered for use." At the time, I was looking for good reasons NOT to use Roundup (my last alternative to elminating creeping charlie--I decided to let it grow and start calling it "ground ivy" :-). Here are some excerpts from 2 articles. If people are interested, I can post the complete articles at a later date. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From NCAP's handout entitled "ROUNDUP". Written by Mary H. O'Brien, September 16, 1987. Roundup is a post-emergence herbicide that kills annual and perennial broadleaf plants and grasses. Roundup is widely used on sites where nonselective vegitation removal is wanted by some people... Its "active ingredient," glyphosate, also appears in Rodeo, a formulation designed for use in aquatic settings. Produced by Monsanto, glyphosate is a farily new herbicide, first registered for use in 1974. Glyphosate is primarily absorbed by plant foliage, but may be taken up by roots in soils that minimize adsorption to soil particles. It apparently kills plants by inhibiting synthesis of an essential amino acid, thereby resulting in a reduction of protein synthesis and an inhibition of growth. Glyphosate is readily translocated within the plant, inhibiting sprouting in perennial species. The following ... problems warrant concern when Roundup is considered for use: 1. PERSISTENCE. Although the claim is often made that Roundup is inactivated rapidly in soil, it is more accurate to say that it is usually absorbed to soil components. A sandy loam trated with glyphosate at recommended application rates (e.g., 2, 5, and 10 ug/g soil) was found to drastically reduce nitrogen fixation, growth, and nodulation of subterranean clover/Rhizobium trifolium/ planted 120 days after glyphosate treatment. Glyphosate clearly remains active in soils that do not adsorb it readily. Damage to vine maple and bigleaf maple was found to increase during the second year following treatment with glyphosate, indicating that glyphosate persists for extended periods in plants. 2. PHYTOTOXICITY. Because glyphosate is a nonselective herbicide, any desired vegetation must be completely protected from glyphosate drive, mist, or drip. As Monsanto notes in its Rounup label guide, "...minute quantities of this herbicide can cause severe damage or destruction to the crop, plants, or other areas on which treatment was not intended." 3. TOXICITY OF 'INERT' INGREDIENTS. [see next article -ed] 4. TESTING. [The article explains that testing on glyphosate by itself is inadequate since the inert ingredients are very important to making Roundup work. Most test results are "unpublished and developed by Monsanto or laboratories hired by Monsanto." [ Other points are made about lack of cancer testing and links to "human damage" including "conjunctivitis (inflammation oft he eyelid and eyeball mucous membrane), dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), and severe flu-like symptoms following exposure to glyphosate. Of 143 pesticides reported for causing human illness in California in 1986, glyphosate was fourth in the number of incidents reported." No further details on this statistic are given. -ed ] A "Roundup Information Packet" containing a series of articles on Roundup is available for $10.50 postpaid from NCAP; P.O. Box 1393; Eugene OR 97440. A file of these and additional glyphsate/Roundup articles is maintained at NCAP; these can be copied at 10 cents/page. [ These prices may not be current considering the article is nearly four years old. -ed ] [ five years now -andy ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From "Roundup, Vision, POEA, and 1,4-Dioxane: Why Full Formulations Are the Problem." Written by Mary O'Brien--a staff scientist for NCAP. Vol. 9, No. 4 of the Journal of Pesticide Reform. When a letter by four Japanese emergency medicine professionals appeared in the February 6, 1988 issue of the American medical journal, The Lancet, a Washington toxicology conultant, David Monroe, took note. The Japanese authors were noting that an "inert ingredient" in the herbicide Roundup (rather than the identified "active" ingredient, glyphosate) accounts for the acute toxicity they had found in patients poisoned (some fatally) by Roundup (JPR 8(1):30). Symptoms included gastrointestinal ("GI" -ed) pain and vomiting, swelling of the lungs and pneumonia, reduction of blood pressure, clouding of consciousness, and red blood cell destruction. The so-called "inert ingredient," polyoxyethyleneamine (POEA), actually refers to a family of chemicals. It is added to Roundup and Vision herbicide formulations as a surfactant, an ingredient that will help evenly spread the active ingredient, glyphosate, on target plants. The Japanese researchers noted that the acute lethal dose of POEA is less than one-third (i.e., POEA is three times as toxic) that of Roundup, and that POEA belongs to a class of surfactants that have been reported to cause adverse GI and central nervous system effects and damage to red blood cells. As POEA does not appear on the Roundup label (supposedly protected, as an inert, from public disclosure under the U.S. pesticide law...), Monroe first learned of its presense in Roundup through the Lancet letter. Monroe recalled a U.S. EPA memorandum that discussed the presence of 1,4-dioxane in two polyalkoxylated polyamine products ... manufactured by the Henkel Corporation. Knowing that POEA is a polyalkoxylated amine, Monroe suspected that 1,4-dioxane might be present as a contaminant of POEA. [ the article now describes the side effects of 1,4-dioxane, which include liver and kidney damage, and cancer in laboratory animals. "The liver and kidney damage can occur regardless of the route of 1,4-dioxane exposure (inhalation, oral ingestion, and/or skin application)." This section concludes with this statement: 'The International Agency for Research on Cancer indicates that evidence is "sufficient" to know that 1,4-dioxane causes cancer in animals and the U.S EPA regards 1,4-dioxane as a probable human carcinogen.' Researchers in British Columbia went on to test Vision (Canada's version of Roundup) checking for 1,4-dioxane contamination. From a 250ml sample, the CANTEST lab detected 350 parts per million 1,4-dioxane using a purge and trap method. That level is equivalent to .35 percent. Now quoting again from the article: ] A 1982 EPA memo ... also discussed 1,4-dioxane as being present in dichloroethyl ether. The 1982 EPA memo ... had been prompted by concern that 1,4-dioxane had been found in dichloroethyl ether at 0.42 percent and 0.55 percent. Under "comments/recommendations" in the memo, the EPA noted that the manufacturer of the contaminated dichloroethyl ether "reported that its employees and cutomers were being notified of the presence of 1,4-dioxane in dichloroethyl ether. In addition, the company reported that its current safety precautions inclue 'body-protective clothing and boots, eye protection, and monitoring of air levels of dichloroethyl ether.'" Users of Roundup and Vision are not informed that the formulation contains either POEA or 1,4-dioxane. Roundup is widely used by homeowners wearing no particular protective clothing, and the label merely states, "Avoid contact with eyes, skin, and clothing because of possible (eye and skin) irritation." The presence of 1,4-dioxane in Vision (and presumably in Roundup) is a classic example of the following: 1. Full formulations, "inert" ingredients, and contaminants, not merely the so-called "active" ingredient, can cause cancer and other adverse chronic effects; their exemption from testing for chronic toxicity is indefensible. 2. The current classification by the EPA of POEA as a "List 3" inert ingredient ("inert of unknown toxicity"), subject neither to listing on the label nor toxicological testing requirements, is indefensible. 3. Estimating the toxicity of glyphosate alone is meaningless when a full formulation (e.g., Roundup, Vision) containing POEA, 1,4-dioxane, and other unlisted ingredients and contaminants is the mixture to which people and the environment will be exposed. What you don't know can hurt you. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Pete Brokaw, Weeg Computing Center, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA 52242 >brokaw@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu 319-335-5453 >Disclaimer: I am not associated with Monsanto, or NCAP. I am merely an >interested party to this discussion. -- From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu ubject: Re: Killing Ivy Date: 9 Mar 92 00:38:51 GMT Organization: University of Northern Iowa aab@cichlid.com (Andy Burgess) writes: > klier@iscsvax.uni.edu writes: >>PS I'm pretty cautious about herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc. >>The only herbicides I will use are glyphosate or boiling water (or hoes, >>etc.) I don't have the toxicity information immediately at hand, but >>you can poison yourself with aspirin 5x more easily than with glyphosate. > > Ingesting Roundup has killed people. I seems that the surfactant is more > toxic than the glyphosate itself. There was a lengthy article posted here > many months ago. I'll try to dig it up and repost. True. The toxicity info I gave was for _glyphosate_, not Roundup. That's why I wear gloves when working with the commercial formulations. Kay Article 6061 in rec.gardens: From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu Subject: Re: Roundup continued Date: 23 Mar 92 01:07:59 GMT Organization: University of Northern Iowa brianb@sprintcom (Brian Bailey) writes: > The discussion on round-up was a very interesting thread which just > seemed to stop without conclusion. If the active ingredient is harmless > which Kay says she can get, then is it commercially available to us > phlebes. If not is round-up worth the risk, or are there other viable > alternatives that are less toxic and still work. Straight glyphosate is available for investigational use, at about $20/gram for 96% purity. The "pure" stuff I used was part of a research study -- and we had some left over, so I got permission to use it up on a natural area that needed selective weed control. I don't know of any broad-spectrum herbicide that is any safer than glyphosate. The various commercial formulations add adjuvants and surfactants that increase the herbicidal activity. These are not considered to be "active" ingredients, so they do not have to be on the label. This is a major problem, IMHO, with current labeling laws. I did a quick search of the last five years of the AGRICOLA data base (National Ag. Library), without turning up any information on human toxicity of glyphosate or glyphosate preparations -- other than the mention of skin irritation. This correlates to the information in the 1990 herbicide handbooks that are on my reference shelf. I believe someone mentioned the possibility of dioxin contamination -- can you please give us a citation, because I'm not turning anything up on that. When dealing with any chemical or mixture of chemicals, you have to assess the risk on the basis of knowledge and (more often than not) on gut feeling. Any chemical -- including pure water -- is hazardous when taken in quantity. The Ames test for probable carcinogens is OK, but not perfect. The various animal tests are likewise OK, but not perfect -- there's just too much variation in toxic threshholds from one species to another. The best we can do is gather all the data we can, then take a deep breath and try to make a good decision. Barring startling new data turning up, I believe that the amount of Roundup or other glyphosate preparations I've used are a negligible risk to me and the environment, especially when compared to other risks that I take all the time without thinking about them: driving a car, eating peanut butter sandwiches, visiting cities, breathing exhaust fumes, sitting in the sun, drinking tap water.... Yes, I try to be careful in how I handle and apply it. If I spray, I use a coarse spray to minimize drift, and wear a mask and long sleeves and wash up afterwards. If I'm using a wipe applicator (gloves or "stamp licker", I've got a couple of pairs of gloves on of different materials (usually latex and vinyl) to prevent skin contact. Should I accidentally spill some on my pant legs (and I haven't yet), I doubt very much if I'd tear my clothes off and run screaming for the nearest source of water: instead I'd dump some muddy water on the spot, and change my jeans when I got back to wherever I stashed my pack. These are choices I've made after evaluating all the information I have available to me, and weighing the possible risks against the other choices: an impossible amount of hand labor, or using other chemicals of possibly greater toxicity. Each of us must decide these things for ourselves. Life is never risk-free. Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI --=*=-- london@sunsite.unc.edu From dplatt@ntg.com Fri May 20 00:56:59 EDT 1994 Article: 33012 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!apple.com!ntg!dplatt From: dplatt@ntg.com (Dave Platt) Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Message-ID: <1994May19.183901.13330@ntg.com> Sender: news@ntg.com (USENET news account) Organization: New Technologies Group, Inc. Palo Alto CA References: <22030002@hpcss01.cup.hp.com> Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 18:39:01 GMT Lines: 28 Status: O X-Status: In article scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) writes: >Exactly what "terrible diseases - resistant to all known drugs" are emerging? >Further, what members of this list are due to the proper use of antibiotics? How about MRSA (multiply-drug-resistant Staph. aureus), some of the antibiotic-resistant strains of tuberculosis, various resistant venereal diseases, etc. Strains of malaria are popping up which are resistant to the standard suite of antimalarial drugs (not "antibiotics" in the conventional use of the term, but the principle is similar). Etc. Whether these are "mutant" diseases is a matter of terminology, I think. It's become clear that the genes which confer resistance to various antibiotics can be passed between _different_ species of bacteria via plasmid transfer. Thus, in principle, overuse of a particular antibiotic could result in the development (selection for) a strain of harmless bacteria which carries the gene for resistance to this antibiotic, and this gene could then be transferred to a disease- causing species of bacteria which would then be resistant to that same antibiotic. -- Dave Platt dplatt@ntg.com ..or.. ...netcomsv!ntg!dplatt USNAIL: The 3DO Company, NTG division 2470 Embarcardero Way Palo Alto CA 94303 From allyn@u.washington.edu Fri May 20 00:59:59 EDT 1994 Article: 33043 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fastrac.llnl.gov!usenet.ee.pdx.edu!cs.uoregon.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!henson!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!psaltery.chem.washington.edu!user From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 14:58:19 -0800 Organization: University of Washington Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <22030002@hpcss01.cup.hp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: psaltery.chem.washington.edu Status: O X-Status: In article , scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) wrote: > Mark Williams (markw@hpcss01.cup.hp.com) wrote: > : There is an odd parallel here between the overuse of insecticides and the > : overuse of antibiotics in medical treatment. It seems that more and more > : diseases are mutating to become resistant to the latest antibiotics, partly > : because of overuse of antibiotics by doctors. New strains of terrible > : diseases are emerging, which are resistant to all known drugs. There is > : no quick chemical fix in sight... > > Well, I just couldn't pass this one by... > > In general, there is concern over improper use of antibiotics (as there is > with improper use of insecticides) in the medical community, but there is no > ever expanding list of mutant diseases whos causes are due to the proper > use of antibiotics - for that matter, there is no ever exapnding list of > mutant diseases. > > Your statement is, no doubt, your opinion based on exposure to all sorts of > "information" from the popular media, but I must disagree here. > > Exactly what "terrible diseases - resistant to all known drugs" are emerging? > Further, what members of this list are due to the proper use of antibiotics? Well, new diseases aren't so much mutating (though new diseases do quite naturally appear from time to time), but previously rare strains of 'easy to treat' diseases are becoming the prevalent strain. One of the most notable is tuberculosis, which can now only be got rid of by a combination of two rather exotic (and very expensive) antibiotics, which must be taken for a year. Most venereal diseases are going the same direction. The staph responsible for sepsis poisoning after surgery is damned near impossible to treat now - I believe there's only one antibiotic left that works on it, also an expensive exotic. The fatality rate for sepsis is up to 50%. (N.b., I don't know what percentage of people having surgery ever get that staph infection - presumably very small in the US. But if you do get it, it's now quite serious.) Insecticides are definately going the same way. Some insects exposed to a single pesticide are starting to develop a tolerance to several classes of insecticides at the same time, so even if you switch toxin, it may not do even short term good. Anything with a high population that quickly goes through a lot of generations can pretty easily develop resistance to toxins. It is much more difficult for an organism to develop a resistance to mechanical death, such as being dried out by salt, or being eaten by a bird, since multiple genes are generally involved. Toxins can often be taken care of by a single protein change, which is easy to do. You only need to have a miniscule fraction of survivors. Birds, mammals, and people don't breed fast enough to take advantage of that on the time scale humans are interested in. The amazing decades when antibiotics and pesticides showed such promise are rapidly coming to an end, and the net result is that we've influenced the evolution of some amazingly adaptable bacteria and insects in a minor way (taking the very long view). In a hard pressed evolutionary war, the short-lived things win. So why continue that sort of evolutionary war? -- Allyn Weaks allyn@u.washington.edu From GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu Fri May 20 01:02:11 EDT 1994 Article: 33034 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: LIST OF HUMMINGBIRD PLANTS Date: 19 May 1994 15:23:28 -0700 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 55 Sender: news@morrow.stanford.edu Message-ID: <2rgot0$co4@morrow.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu Status: O X-Status: I finally found my plant list of things I used to grow from Hummingbird gardens. This is not my huge catalog list but is a pretty good reference of plants easy to grow that are good for hummingbirds PLANT LIST, SEPT. 1988 All 1 gal plants $5.00 Abelia floribunda MEXICAN ABELIA Abutilon megapotamicum FLOWERING MAPLE A. hybrids Aloe species Anigozanthus flavidus KANGAROO PAW Aquilegia eximia SUMMER COLUMBINE *Aquilegia formosa WESTERN COLUMBINE Asclepias curravasica MILKWEED Beloperone guttata SHRIMP PLANT Bouvardia glaberrima SMOOTH BOUVARDIA B. ternifolia SCARLET BOUVARDIA Brunsfelsia nyctaginoides Buddleia davidii BUTTERFLY BUSH Campsis radicans TRUMPET VINE Cestrum elegans C. elegans smithii Columnea species Cuphea chileae C. hyssopifolia C. micropetala C. minniata C. platycentra Dicliptera suberecta *Diplacus auranticaus STICKY MONKKEY FLOWER *Diplacus puniceus RED MONKEY FLOWER Fuchsia arborescens F. chang F. encliandra F. fanfare F. lycioides F. magellanica F. magellanica molinae F. serratifolia F. thymifolia F. 'tincta' *Galvezia speciosa BUSH ISLAND SNAPDRAGON Grevillia canberra Grevillia constance Grevillia Robyn Gordon Heuchera sanguinea CORAL BELLS *Ipmopsis aggregata SKYROCKET, SCARLET GILIA *<.i+>California Native From GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu Fri May 20 01:02:18 EDT 1994 Article: 33035 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!morrow.stanford.edu!morrow.stanford.edu!not-for-mail From: GC.SUL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Sullys Maze) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Hummer list page 2 Date: 19 May 1994 15:24:57 -0700 Organization: Stanford University Lines: 57 Sender: news@morrow.stanford.edu Message-ID: <2rgovp$cp7@morrow.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu Status: O X-Status: PLANT LIST cont.. I. rubra TEXAS PLUME Justicia specigera *Lavatera assurgentiflora MALVA ROSA seed available Leonotis leonurus LION'S TAIL Lepuchinia hastata PITCHER SAGE Lobelia cardinalis (species, not fulgens) CARDINAL FLOWER L. laxiflora *Mimulus cardinalis SCARLET MONKEY FLOWER *M. lewisii LEWIS MONKEY FLOWER Monarda didyma BEE BALM M. fistulosa WILD BERGAMOT *Monardella macrantha LARGE FLOWERED MONARDELLA *Penstemon centranthifolius SCARLET BUGLER *P. eatonii EATON'S FIRECRACKER P. havardii BIG BEND PENSTEMON *P. labrosus GOLDEN BEARD TONGUE *P. pinifolius PINELEAF PENSTEMON P. pseudospectablis DESERT BEARDTONGUE P. subulatus Polemonium pauciflorum PINE TRUMPETS Salvia cardinalis S. coccinea S. elegans (gracilistyla) PINEAPPLE SAGE S. gesneriflora S. greggii AUTUMN SAGE S. guaranitica NUTMEG SAGE S. honeymelon DWARF PINEAPPLE SAGE S. involucrata ROSY LEAF SAGE S. lemmonii LEMMON'S SAGE S. leucantha MEXICAN BUSH SAGE S. mexicana S. microphyllia S. microphyllia select (fuzzy flower) *S. spathacea HUMMINGBIRD SAGE S. uglinosa BOG SAGE *Satureja mimuloides Tecomaria capensis CAPE HONEYSUCKLE *Trichostema lanatum WOOLLY BLUE CURLS *Zauschineria californica CALIFORNIA FUCHSIA, HUMMINGBIRD FUCHSIA *Z. C. ssp latifolia *Z. cana HOARY CALIFORNIA FUCHSIA *Z. 'Cloverdale' *Z. 'Brilliant Smith' *Z. grey leaf hybrid (U.C.) *Z. 'Mattole river'' *Z. septentrionales *Z. 'Uvas' *<.i+>California Native From br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Fri May 20 01:09:05 EDT 1994 Article: 33032 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!br105 From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Black Widow Bites and Their Treatment Date: 19 May 1994 22:35:42 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 39 Message-ID: <2rgpju$17b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: I just checked a couple of basic emergency medicine texts for the treatment of Black Widow spider bites. Here is a brief version of what they say 1. The only first aid is the application of an ice-pack to the bite. This is only to relieve the pain. The bite may not hurt at first, but within 15 minutes severe pain will appear and spread. 2. The bite may cause a large number of sypmtoms characteristic of neurotoxin poisoning including--headache, vomiting, dizziness, profuse sweating, debilitating muscle cramps and spasms that may be confined to the bitten limb or may occur in any or all of the large muscle groups. The victim may alternate profuse salivation with extreme dryness of the mouth. 3. Abdominal cramps and muscle spasms that produce pain comparable to acute appendicitis are classic symptoms. 4. Hypertension is a serious problem that may require immediate treatment (diastolic pressure may exceed 130) 5. Treatment consists of injections of a specific Black Widow antivenin and calcium gluconate for the muscle cramps. 6. Both sources agree that a healthy adult is unlikely to die from a Black Widow bite, but people with high blood pressure, heart disease or breathing problems could be in serious trouble if not treated quickly. 7 FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANT!!! Black Widow bites are VERY dangerous to children. One source sums it up this way "A bite that may cause an adult several hours of severe pain and 2-3 days of serious discomfort can easily produce complete caridac decompensation and respiratory failure in a child." J. Del Col -- Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics. A-B College * Be there." Philippi, WV * * ----Charles Simic---- From jon@armory.com Fri May 20 15:25:11 EDT 1994 Article: 33092 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!hobbes!earth.armory.com!jon From: jon@armory.com (Jon Shemitz) Subject: Tips from Sim Farm??? Organization: Midnight Beach Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 02:26:23 GMT Message-ID: Sender: news@armory.com (Usenet News) Nntp-Posting-Host: deeptht.armory.com Lines: 10 Status: O X-Status: The Sim Farm manual has a couple of (to me) dubious gardening tips from the Old Farmers Almanac: Put a matchbook, sans cover and staple, in the bottom of the hole when you plant peppers. This will help make for vigorous plants. Give your tomatoes a cup of beer every week once they flower. These sound pretty bizarre to me -- has anyone ever tried them? From scd@atria.com Fri May 20 15:27:34 EDT 1994 Article: 33071 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2r0ghq$rjh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <1994May15.035215.25515@debug.cuc.ab.ca> Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 12:24:11 GMT Lines: 142 Status: O X-Status: Steve Daukas (scd@atria.com) wrote: : As far as "Balck Widow" bites/habitats, etc., I have seen some information : posted that I am not so sure is accurate. I will post a follow-up after I : dig out my medical references on insects bites and the like. As promised - the follow-up gleaned from a few different texts. Only the most generally excepted prehospital treatments are presented below - some texts advocate other treatments (some of which I previosuly described), but I felt it better to stick with the basics as all texts stated that little can be done... Habitat background: The female black widow spider is characterized by a shiny black body, thin legs, and a crimson red marking on its abdomen, usually in the shape of an hourglass or two red triangles. Do not be confused by appearances, however. Of the five species in the US, only three are black, and not all have the characteristic red marking. The female is one of the largest spiders in the US. Males generally do not bite; females bite only when hungry, agitated, or protecting the egg sack. Contrary to folklore, the black widow spider is not aggressive. In fact, many bites occur when a finger or hand enters the web and is mistaken as prey. Black widow spiders, as is true for most spiders, are usually found in dry, secluded dimly lit areas. The spider is known for its extremely strong, funnel-shaped web. More than 80% of all bite victims are adult men. Venom: Black Widow Spider bites are among the leading cause of death from _spider_ bites in the US. The venom - 14 times more toxic than rattlesnake venom, is a neurotoxin that causes little pronounced local reaction, bts results in pain and spasm in the large muscle groups (which are the abdomen, upper leg, buttocks, etc.) within thirty minutes to three hours. Severe bites will affect the respiratory system and can result in respiratory failure, coma, and death. Those at the highest risk for developing severe bites are children under 16, the elderly over 60, and people with chronic illness and anyone with hypertension. Signs and Symptoms (Sx): The most common sign of a Black Widow Spider bite is high blood pressure. The most common symptoms are flushing, sweating, and grimacing of the face within ten minutes to two hours. Other Sx include: A pinprick sensation at the bite site, becomming a dull ache within 30 to 40 minutes Pain and spasms in the shoulders, back, chest, and abdominal muscles within 30 minutes to 3 hours Rigid, boardlike abdomen Restlessness and anxiety Fever Rash Headache Nausea or vomiting The symptoms generally last from 24 to 48 hours. The headache and general weakness, however, may last for several months. Treatment (Tx): Prehospital care is generally not effective in the long-term treatment of the bite. The goal is general wound care and transport. General treatment consists of: Administer care for shock Apply a cold compress to the bite area - do not use ice! Do not allow scratching of the would and do not clean the wound, simply cover it with a loose dressing. Transport as quickly as possible Black Widow anitvenoms are risky and are reserved for high risk patients. Nevertheless, you should try to find the spider and bring it with you so that positive identification can be made. ID can be made even if the spider is crushed. If you don't know what kind of bite it is: Wash the wound thoroughly with soap and tepid water ONLY! Using cold or hot water will aggrivate certain toxins and also dialate the capillary bed. Cover the wound with a loose dressing to discourage scratching Keep the affected area below the level of the heart and in a position of function. Don't use constriction bands unless you are sure its a snake bite from a poisonous snake (two distinct puncture wounds for land, or a series of scrape marks for the ocean) AND you are more than 30 minutes from a hospital. Constriction bands are not Tourniquets! Apply a cold compress to the wound - NEVER place ice on the wound. Anyone developing Sx of an allergic reaction should be transported to an ER ASAP! Those who are allergic and don't know (and won't know until bit/stung) can actually die in under 10 minutes! Don't screw around if any of the following present themselves! Sx of an allergic reaction include: Burning pain and itching at the bite site Itching on the palms of the hands and soles of the feet Itching on the neck and the groin General body swelling A nettlelike rash over the entire body Breathing difficulties A severe reaction (Anaphylactic shock) includes: Weakness and/or fainting Nausea Shock Unconsciousness Death, usually in less than 30 minutes Hope this was useful! Regards, Steve -- From djpauker@cca.rockwell.com Fri May 20 15:29:41 EDT 1994 Article: 33104 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!decwrl!pa.dec.com!cca.rockwell.com!djpauker From: djpauker@cca.rockwell.com ("Dan Paukert M/S 106-187 Ext:2212 Comnet:319/435-2212") Message-ID: <9405201908.AA16847@bigten.cca.rockwell.com> Subject: Tips from Sim Farm??? Date: Fri, 20 May 94 14:08:36 -0500 X-Received: by usenet.pa.dec.com; id AA12792; Fri, 20 May 94 12:13:16 -0700 X-Received: from hwking.cca.rockwell.com by inet-gw-1.pa.dec.com (5.65/21Mar94) id AA14151; Fri, 20 May 94 12:08:42 -0700 X-Received: by hwking.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA14916; Fri, 20 May 1994 14:08:39 -0500 X-Received: by bigten.cca.rockwell.com (5.65/DEC-Ultrix/4.3) id AA16847; Fri, 20 May 1994 14:08:37 -0500 X-To: rec.gardens.usenet X-Mts: smtp Lines: 25 Status: O X-Status: jon@armory.com (Jon Shemitz) writes >The Sim Farm manual has a couple of (to me) dubious gardening tips from >the Old Farmers Almanac: > Put a matchbook, sans cover and staple, in the bottom of the hole when > you plant peppers. This will help make for vigorous plants. > Give your tomatoes a cup of beer every week once they flower. >These sound pretty bizarre to me -- has anyone ever tried them? In 'The Joy of Gardening' by Dick Raymond, he recommends placing a few match heads in the ground under each pepper plant. Pepper plants like the sulfur. Just don't let the roots touch the match heads directly. He also suggests spraying the plants with a dillute mixture of epsom salts. If anyone is interested I can get the exact mixture that he suggests. o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o | Dan Paukert /^^\ | E-mail = djpauker@pobox.cca.rockwell.com | o 638 36th St. NE | | o work phone 319/395-2212 o | Cedar Rapids, IA 52402 | | | Fax 319/395-4182 | o 319/364-0870 / | o Rockwell Avionics/Collins 400 Collins Rd NE o | <__/\/ | M/S 106-187 Cedar Rapids, IA 52498 | o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!ukma!ovation!admii!nvl-times!astro!bajones Fri May 20 22:01:20 EDT 1994 Article: 33113 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!ukma!ovation!admii!nvl-times!astro!bajones From: bajones@astro (Ebeth Jones) Subject: Re: BLACK WIDOWS - I have alot; should I be concerned? Message-ID: X-Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of NVL Sender: usenet@nvl.army.mil Nntp-Posting-Host: 140.183.12.36 Reply-To: bajones@nvl.army.mil Organization: U.S. Army Night Vision & Electronic Sensors References: <1994May16.153234.11222@pmafire.inel.gov> <1994May16.151046.5800@driftwood.cray.com> <1994May17.144817.2372@pmafire.inel.gov> Date: Tue, 17 May 1994 19:53:21 GMT Lines: 23 Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May17.144817.2372@pmafire.inel.gov> kkv@lewis (Jamie J Ferguson) writes: > >p.s. Speaking of spiders, the brown recluse is another one I've >heard about in this area (mostly in wood piles, which has made >me terrified to touch the wood we have piled in our garage). >Our humane society had a venom expert talk at a meeting in >January, and he and his very graphic pictures made it very >clear that this spider is NOT one to mess with. He also >told us about a spider that they've just found in the US >in the past 10 years or so, and it didn't get identified >until a few years ago for sure. I think this was something >else than the brown recluse -- anyone know? Although why >I am asking for more information on spiders is not clear >to me... A new pet to add to your menagerie? :) -- Elizabeth Jones E-MAIL: bajones@nvl.army.mil "A home without a cat, and a well-fed, well-petted, and properly revered cat, may be a perfect home, *perhaps*, but how can it prove its title?" Mark Twain From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.den.mmc.com!NewsWatcher!user Fri May 20 22:06:09 EDT 1994 Article: 33089 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!news.den.mmc.com!NewsWatcher!user From: (S.L.Compton) Subject: Black Widows... Message-ID: <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: news@den.mmc.com (News Admin) Nntp-Posting-Host: 160.205.44.27 Organization: MMC Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:27:06 GMT Lines: 97 Status: O X-Status: Thanks so much to all who gave me some VERY valuable insight into these nasty little creatures. To sum up, over the past few weeks since my original posting, I have been on a personal extermination mission. Some of the first reponses told of how serious a bite can be a truly life-threatening (not to mention "the worst pain" or "pain so bad I'd rather died" responses from those who knew first-hand). IDENTIFICATION: Getting close enough to positively ID the Black Widow is not quite as hard as it sounds. You do not have to turn them over and find their bright red hour-glass shaped mark on the underside of their abdomen. Most of the time, they will sit up-side down in their webs. Also, the female is slightly larger and has the brightest markings and color (or lack of - since they are black). Their bodies are a jet-black which is a very shiny black with very little 'fur' or hair giving a slick/satin appearance. The males tend to be not quite as intensely colored. These spiders are recognizeable also by their body shape. They have a very small head and upper 'torso' region, followed by a well-rounded (pea to marble sized) anterior. Habitat also helps to identify, but most spiders to tend to like the same type of hang outs. A funnel shaped web with thick webbing is common to the widows, but also of turantulas, wolf and other 'garden' variety spiders. The best indications of a Black Widow's web is the style, the location (dark, dank, slightly moist) and maintained. The widows will quickly clean out their webs and tend to anything which may prevent catching more food. A tear, foreign objects (grass, twigs, leaves) may stay in the web for a day or two, and sometimes hide the spider. These arachnids also like to be able to retreat, as well. Their funnel shaped web will usually flow back into a recess, a corner or a covered/hidden area. In general, watch from a distance and look at night to see if you can positively add up the above signs. NEUTRALIZATION: I have found several Ortho products which are intented for household/garden use which are effective on a large variety of insects - including the Black Widow. The rock retaining walls in my garden harbor mice, garter snakes and these lovely ladies. The webs of the spiders are obvious in their funnel shape and thick webbing. At nightime with a flashlight and the formula II Ortho House and Garden Insect spray, I have sprayed the webs several times, every other night. Chemicals shuch as Diaznon and Malthion are recommended for outdoor use, but my local garden store suggested the formula II because of its quick dissipation and is not highly toxic to animal life (i.e. me, pets, children). Ortho formula III insect and the stronger chemicals are NOT to be used around any garden areas where they may come in contact with food products. By finding the spiders and directly spraying them with the formula II, most say there is a very good success rate - this seems true as the webs have been in a state of disrepair for several days and I have not seen any spiders in my hunting. EXTERMINATION: I also agree that there is a real concern in actively hunting these beasts. The only reason I undertook this task myself was that most exterminators I talked to were quite honest in saying that the Ortho formula II would be the same or close to what they would use for the garden areas. They did also offer to do a thorough inspection in and around the house for a resonable fee (and also provide a full estimate). I have a relatively new home and have seen no signs of them around the house (lack of grown-up shrubs & habbitat) nor inside the house. YET... __ / \ ____ _____ ______ | | | Be afraid, / \_ | | | | / | | | Be VERY afraid; \ /_\0, |___ |____ |_____ | / | | | \__/ /|\\ | | | |/ \ These 'guys' deserve your |____ |_____ |______ | \ | | | full respect... From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london Fri May 20 22:38:01 EDT 1994 Article: 33147 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!sunSITE!london From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Black Widows... Date: 21 May 1994 02:31:37 GMT Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill Lines: 36 Message-ID: <2rjrq9$p2f@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> References: <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: calzone.oit.unc.edu Summary: need faq info on other poisonous animals for rec.gardens archives Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> (S.L.Compton) writes: >Thanks so much to all who gave me some VERY valuable insight into these >nasty little creatures. I have saved 3 informative posts on Black Widows as a faq for the gardening archives at sunSITE.unc.edu. I would also like to prepare faqs on a few other nasty critters for the archives. Could anyone post information on the following: 1) treatment of snakebite, esp. copperheads; maintaining a reasonably snake-free perimeter around a residence 2) centipedes (Hellgrammite ?), where they are usually found, risks involved in getting stung, treatment of sting 3) brown recluse spider bite; where they are found, how to get rid of them 4) how to deal with bee/wasp/yellowjacket/hornet/bumblebee sting; what to do if you're allergic and get stung - how to use beesting emergency kit to forestall anaphylactic shock - what to do if allergic reaction takes the form of tachycardia or irregular heartbeat 5) info on any other poisonous reptiles or insects At sunSITE.unc.edu these faqs will be in: pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/faqs pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills/faqs Are there other ftp sites making any of this information available? Thanks, Lawrence london@sunSITE.unc.edu From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!charvey Sat May 21 22:01:59 EDT 1994 Article: 32984 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!charvey From: charvey@csn.org (Chip Harvey) Subject: Model Wildflower Ordinances Message-ID: Sender: news@csn.org (The Daily Planet) Nntp-Posting-Host: teal.csn.org Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:06:36 GMT Lines: 11 Status: O X-Status: I'm trying to identify model zoning ordinances for wildflowers. A neighbor is phobic about "weeds," does not like the direction my lawn/garden is taking, and has suggested that "high weeds" will earn me a fine. I'd like to work toward a more progressive ordinance that appreciates the value of ground cover and wildflowers above the common extensive areas of stone and black plastic. Any references appreciated. Chip charvey@csn.org From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu!Fletcher Sat May 21 22:02:36 EDT 1994 Article: 33183 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu!Fletcher From: Fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Model Wildflower Ordinances Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 00:43:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu Status: O X-Status: In article charvey@csn.org (Chip Harvey) writes: >From: charvey@csn.org (Chip Harvey) >Subject: Model Wildflower Ordinances >Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 15:06:36 GMT >I'm trying to identify model zoning ordinances for wildflowers. A >neighbor is phobic about "weeds," does not like the direction my >lawn/garden is taking, and has suggested that "high weeds" will earn me a >fine. I'd like to work toward a more progressive ordinance that >appreciates the value of ground cover and wildflowers above the common >extensive areas of stone and black plastic. Any references appreciated. >Chip >charvey@csn.org Can't help with zoning ordinances but here are a couple of tips - make your plantings as 'bed-like' as possible. Neatly mowed paths, edgings, a little bench, use whatever you can to make it look more 'planned'. After all, what you grow in your flower bed is your own business where the wilder look can look a lawn gone native.. A friend of mine went so far as to mulch her plantings of perennial wildflowers. This went a long way towards appeasing the neighbors. Karen Fletcher fletcher@prairienet.org ================================================================= "Eventually people realized that the information superhighway was essentially CB radio, but with more typing." - Dave Barry ================================================================= From bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!174.52.med.umich.edu!user Sat May 21 22:05:26 EDT 1994 Article: 33177 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!174.52.med.umich.edu!user From: Nick.Plummer@med.umich.edu (Nicholas Plummer) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Black Widows... Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: 21 May 1994 20:21:13 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> <2rjrq9$p2f@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 174.52.med.umich.edu Status: O X-Status: In article <2rjrq9$p2f@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>, london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) wrote: > > 1) treatment of snakebite, esp. copperheads; maintaining a reasonably > snake-free perimeter around a residence > IMHO, The first point in any FAQ about snakebite should be LEAVE THEM ALONE. The majority of snakes in North America are non venomous and are no threat. Most snakes are shy, and the venomous snakes are usually only a threat if you bother them. Some people are unlucky, but the vast majority of snake bites occur when someone tries to pick up, kill, or otherwise harass a venomous snake. If you actively try to exterminate snakes around your house or garden, you will increase your chances of being bitten. That said, the only way I can think of to safely reduce the number of snakes like copperheads in an area is to (1) remove their hiding spots and (2) wipe out their food source. Many snakes spend the day hiding beneath objects, and I have found some very interesting specimens lurking under old plywood boards in vacant lots and junkpiles. Don't leave piles of brushwood, old boards, or corrugated metal near your home. You could try exterminating all the small mammals (mice, rats, etc) in the area, but personally, I wouldn't bother. nick nicholas plummer nick.plummer@med.umich.edu graduate slave, department of human genetics, university of michigan From f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Mon May 23 00:27:51 EDT 1994 Article: 33187 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Poison ivy Message-ID: <1994May21.211513.8861@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> From: Ron Rushing Date: 21 May 94 21:15:12 CST References: <1453300685@cdp> Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: 144.96.241.50 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2X-XXDate: Sat, 21 May 1994 21:17:11 GMTLines: 82 Lines: 82 Status: O X-Status: In article <1453300685@cdp> Robin Sherman, ucsrsherman@igc.apc.org writes: >I don't know how to get rid of poison ivy, >but I do know that it's dangerous all year, even >in the winter when it has no leaves and is difficult >to identify... I did a Veronica search of Gopherspace on the string "Posion Ivy". I came across several items. Here's a short one as an example. I also recall seeing a very detailed discussion on posion ivy , its identification, eradication, and contact treatment--perhaps it was in the rec.gardens FAQ--or somewhere ?? If I find it, I'll post its location here. =========== Poison Ivy Contact with poison ivy can leave you with a rash and persistent itch. This native perennial grows throughout Virginia, in woods, fields, and sometimes in the garden. It grows in sun or shade, and in wet or dry places. Its growth habit depends on where it is growing, resulting in a trailing ground cover, free-standing shrub, or a vine supported by trees, shrubbery and fences. All parts of the poison ivy plant contain an oil, urushiol, which causes the allergic reaction. Most poisoning occur during the growing season when the presence of lush foliage increases the chance of contact, but the dormant stems and roots of the vine can cause winter poisoning as well. Individuals vary in their sensitivity to poison ivy, but repeated exposure can lead to increased sensitivity. It would be a good idea for everyone to avoid this plant. Poison ivy appears in many forms. The leaflets vary in size, glossiness, and marginal notching, but always occur in groups of three. If you avoid all unknown plants with leaves composed of three leaflets, you will be playing it safe. Poison ivy is difficult but not impossible to eradicate. The chief difficulty lies in the chances of becoming poisoned when trying to remove it. Wear protective clothing, including gloves, whenever you are working near it. Pulling and grubbing are effective means of removal, though they necessitate close contact and will probably need to be repeated once or twice for complete control. If time is not an object, the vines can be smothered by completely covering them with black plastic for several months. Do not mow the plants as this will spew bits and pieces of poisonous material over the area. When removing poison ivy, take frequent breaks to change clothes and scrub thoroughly with a strong soap. Wash contaminated clothing separately. DO NOT BURN any plants that you physically remove. The resulting smoke can cause severe lung damage if inhaled. Herbicides are effective and allow you to control the plant without getting too close to it. Several commercial products are available. Check labels to find one that will control poison ivy, and apply it as directed. Many of the herbicides for poison ivy control contain glyphosate. This chemical is systemic. It is absorbed by leaves and transferred to stems and roots, and slowly causes the death of the entire plant. It must be applied to an actively growing plant for this process to take place; do not apply it during a drought when even poison ivy will not be growing. Glyphosate, like most herbicides labelled for poison ivy removal, is nonselective and will kill any other plants it contacts. Where poison ivy has grown up tree trunks or into hedges, cut the vine at ground level. Remove as much of the stump and roots as you can with a hoe or by pulling. As regrowth occurs, apply an herbicide to the leaves, or keep pulling up the growth. With perseverance, and probably of few itches, poison ivy can be controlled. ================ Ron Rushing Technology Coordinator Stephen F. Austin State University Nacogdoches, TX f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Disclaimer: "Its alright-- Its only me" From f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Mon May 23 00:30:12 EDT 1994 Article: 33188 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Posion Ivy- Everything You Wanted To Know-- Message-ID: <1994May21.212303.8862@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> From: Ron Rushing Date: 21 May 94 21:23:02 CST Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: 144.96.241.50 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2X-XXDate: Sat, 21 May 1994 21:24:50 GMTLines: 454 Lines: 454 Status: O X-Status: I found this doccument in my files. Its a compilation of several items fromhere and there- Appolgies to any authors whos' names were inadvertantly deleted-- =================================== Subject: Re: Poison Ivy, Oak, etc. Date: 1 Jun 92 16:30:07 GMT * Poison Oak, Poison Ivy, and Poison Sumac do pretty much the same thing to you. There is heated debate among botanists about whether Poison Oak and Poison Ivy really the same species. Poison Sumac is at least closely related. * They hurt you through an oil that transfers to your skin, or which you can inhale from the fumes of the burning plant. The oil doesn't wash off with plain water. Ordinary soap usually doesn't do it either. Some people claim to be immune to the irritation from this oil. A subset of these have rolled around in Poison Ivy to prove it. A subset of these have subsequently come down with severe cases of the rash. It would be prudent to avoid Poison Ivy. * The best thing I've found to deal with Poison Ivy is a product called "Technu Poison Oak and Ivy Cleanser" I found in the first-aid section of the drug store. It's a liquid soap that can be used to try and wash out the irritating oil before or after the rash develops (sooner is better). One caution that isn't sufficiently emphasized in the directions: The stuff has a mild anesthetic effect. This makes it possible to wash/scratch the affected area too vigorously. This breaks down the skin's ability to hold together. The effect is like a second-degree burn or the skin underneath a blister. Very painful, and now you have to treat it like a burn, with all the attendant danger of infection, etc. Keep the washing with the Technu gentle, and you should have no problem. Control: -------- 1. The darn stuff grows roots all over the place, just like lots of ivy. Each section seems to be able to grow without much help from the momma plant, once it gets going. That means your ordinary weed killers won't have as much effect on it as you would like. So what if it dies here, it just keeps going over there, under those rocks. We've used Roundup, and the long term effect seems to be that the ivy backs off, waits for everything else that the Roundup killed to decay, and then fills up the space vacated by its wimpy dead friends. Other weed killers, the kind you wouldn't want to have around your horses, may do better. We don't know. 2. You can rip it out by the roots. You'll need equipment and a method. Put on old clothes and tall rubber boots. Put on rubber gloves and coveralls. Let your beard grow a few days if you can, too. Wear a hat, preferably one that protects your ears. Put leather garden gloves over the rubber gloves. Rip the ivy out, being careful not to get it on your face. DON'T scratch any itches, DON'T slap mosquitos, DON'T try to get that little black fly that's starting to munch on your eyeball. Goggles or a beekeeper's bonnet might be helpful, you know. Put all the ivy in a gubbidge bag in a gubbidge bucket, and tie it up. Don't touch the bag again without gloves. To undress: Take off the garden gloves and throw them away, or drop them right into the washer. NOW WASH YOUR HANDS, that is, wash the rubber gloves. With the rubber gloves still on, remove the coveralls and the boots. The coveralls go right into the washer, along with your hat. Wash the boots. Remove the rest of your clothing, and put it all in the washer. NOW WASH YOUR HANDS before you touch yourself -anywhere-. Yes, especially -there-. Be careful where you step, too, so you don't walk in bare feet where you trod with ivy boots. Take a shower or two. Apply anti-histamine or cortisone ointment, or your other Favourite Cure if you discover, a day or two later, that you got some ivy on you anyway, in spite of the precautions. To wash the clothes: add Amway Tri-Zyme or some other good enzyme powder, and soak the clothes for an hour. Then wash them. Then wash them again. 3. Goats eat poison ivy. Keep goats, and they will eat your ivy, along with lots of other stuff. -------*-------- Here's what I've learned over the last few years from experience and also from research at the local University Library. I've spent hours going through dermatology journals reading up on this stuff. If anyone finds mistakes below, or has evidence to the contrary, feel free to post or e-mail me. I'll try and keep this up-to-date. ON THE RASH: * The irritant in poison ivy, poison sumac, and poison oak is urushiol. Urushiol is also found in the lacquer tree, but I doubt you have one of those. The rash you get is an allergic reaction. Everything I say below about poison ivy should also apply to poison oak and sumac. * If you brush up against a healthy undamaged plant, you won't usually get urushiol on you. You usually have to come in contact with a damaged leaf. Almost all plants have damaged leaves - either from insects, weather, or from your stepping on them. * The toxin exists in varying concentrations in the leaves, stems, and roots. I have gotten a rash from all three, although the reaction I got from the roots was very minor. * The oil is easily transferred from one place to another. For example, I got some on my shoelaces once, and I kept getting poison ivy on my hands for a couple of months before I figured out what was going on :-(. Once it is on your hands, it can, and will, end up anywhere on you body :-O . It is also common for it to be picked up on the hair of your dog or horse, and then repeatedly transferred to you. * Once you get the oil on clothing, it can sit for months and still cause a rash upon contact with your skin. For example,lets say you get some poison ivy oil on your boots, then put the boots away for the winter. Next spring you get out the boots and go for a walk - but not in the woods. A few days later, voila - your hands are breaking out from putting on your boots and tying the laces. * The first time you in your life you're exposed to urushiol, you will not react to it. In other words, you get one free pass. After that, your body develops an allergic reaction, which is the rash you get from subsequent exposures. The literature says it is possible to lose your allergic response if you are not exposed for a long period of time, like 10 years or more. So, if you haven't gotten poison ivy in 10 years, you may get another free pass. There are a number of other chemical irritants (like trinitrochlorobenzene) that also cause this type of allergic response in your skin, but hopefully you'll never have to worry about them. * There is no known way to build up an immunity to the oil. There is anecdotal evidence of people drinking teas made from poison ivy to try and build up an immunity. They got sick and got rashes on their butts. * Not all humans are allergic to urushiol. I think about 1 in 7 (or was it 1 in 15) are not allergic. Native Americans (a.k.a. American Indians) tend to NOT be allergic. * If you think you've come into contact with poison ivy, throw everything in the wash when you get home. Wash yourself with COLD WATER. The oil is supposedly soluble in water. If you use warm water, it will cause the pores in your skin to open up, enabling the oil to get deeper in your skin. * Tall socks and long pants are highly recommended when hiking through poison ivy. In places where the ivy can grow tall, a long-sleeve shirt is also a good idea. * If you really want to hike in shorts in poison-ivy country, there is this goop you can put on your legs that will keep it off your skin. I've used it before and didn't get a rash, but I don't know if I came into physical contact with poison ivy. This goop is available at larger sporting-goods stores. * Interestingly, I've found that the best way to keep from getting poison ivy is to learn to recognize the plants. After unsuccessfully spraying it for years (it's everywhere on our property), I can spot it at 100 ft. I used to get a rash every year - sometimes 2 or three times in a summer. This was simply because I didn't notice where I was walking or sitting. I spend more time in our woods than ever, now, and I haven't picked up poison ivy in 2 years. This co-existence works fine for me, but not always as well for unescorted visitors :-(. There can be substantial variation between plants, so learn to recognize all the variants of leaf formation, etc. * If you get a rash, you pretty much have to wait it out. However, you CAN treat the symptons - namely itching. I've found hydrocortizone cream to work well at reducing the itch. I believe The FDA has recently increased the non-prescription strength from .5% to 1%, so make sure you get the stronger stuff. If it's really bad, see your doctor. Although it's unlikely, you want to make sure any complications are treated quickly. This is more likely to happen if you are exposed over a very large part of your body. * Each person reacts a little differently, but on me, it takes 1.5-2 days after exposure to notice an itch, and 2-3 weeks before the blisters have gone away. * As long as you've washed the original oil off your skin, the puss from the blisters should not re-infect your skin. It's just puss, and does not contain urushiol. ON GETTING RID OF THE PLANTS: * If you only have a small number of plants, you can physically remove them, but BE CAREFUL. Use rubber gloves, and put the plants and the gloves in a plastic bag when done. Wash ANYTHING that touches the plants in cold water. * I've had no success with 2,4-D. Although the packaging says it's indicated for poison ivy, I've found that the leaves just turn brown and fall off, and then come right back. Even after 2 or 3 applications, the plants keep coming back. * Roundup (or one of the cheaper equivalents) works much better, but you'll need 2 applications, 4-6 weeks apart. * If you do go the chemical route, I suggest getting a dye from your local nursery and mixing it with the Roundup so you can see where you've sprayed. They call it a marker, since it 'marks' where you've sprayed. There are other types of markers, including foams, but I've had better luck with dyes. The kind I use is dark blue, and disappears within a day of use. I've usually been able to get away with 1/2 the recommended dose - your milage may vary. The advantages are that you can verify hitting all the leaves, but you don't end up re-spraying stuff you've already hit. The end result is better kill, less cost (because you use less Roundup), and less damage to the environment. * Even if you think you've killed all the plants, expect some to come back from the roots next year. * NEVER, NEVER, NEVER burn poison ivy. The oil can be carried up with the smoke, and can be VERY nasty if inhaled. Andy Goris >* The best thing I've found to deal with Poison Ivy is a product > called "Technu Poison Oak and Ivy Cleanser" I found in the first-aid > section of the drug store. It's a liquid soap that can be used to > try and wash out the irritating oil before or after the rash > develops (sooner is better). One caution that isn't sufficiently > emphasized in the directions: The stuff has a mild anesthetic > effect. This makes it possible to wash/scratch the affected area > too vigorously. This breaks down the skin's ability to hold > together. The effect is like a second-degree burn or the skin > underneath a blister. Very painful, and now you have to treat it > like a burn, with all the attendant danger of infection, etc. Keep > the washing with the Technu gentle, and you should have no problem. > - PauL Drews Actually, the best thing to use is ethanol. Probably cheaper than the above product, anyway. Ethanol acts as a solvent for the toxin found in poison ivy (Toxicodendrol, I believe). there's a blurb in the latest Business Week on the University of Mississippi, in that they have figured out more about what Poison Ivy does to you - and have some level of immunization shot. one per year is what they mentioned in the article. it's the Business Week with the cover about women in industry. Date: 3 Jun 92 15:15:14 GMT >there's a blurb in the latest Business Week on the University of >Mississippi, in that they have figured out more about what Poison Ivy >does to you - and have some level of immunization shot. one per year >is what they mentioned in the article. it's the Business Week with the >cover about women in industry. They've actually had the immunization for several years. Last I knew there was one problem. You need to make sure you get the shot EARLY in the year, *BEFORE* poison ivy is up and growing. Encountering poison ivy shortly after the shot can cause an *Extremely* nasty case of the stuff... >From an upcoming medical journal article. Toxicodendron species (Poison Oak, Poison Ivy, Poison Sumac) Anacardiaceae (Cashew or Sumac family). The genus contains approximately 15 species found in eastern Asia, North and South America. The literature contains considerable nomenclatural controversy and confusion, and most early works place ~Poison Oak,~ ~Poison Ivy~ and ~Poison Sumac~ in the genus Rhus. In addition, medical literature usually persists in referring to the toxic effects of these plants as Rhus dermatitis. Recent taxonomic studies place these toxic plants of the Anacardiaceae in the genus Toxicodendron, while the genus Rhus contains nontoxic plants. Toxicodendron is generally known by the public as the most villainous plant for its ability to produce contact dermatitis. Although the consequences of Toxicodendron exposure are usually well-known, most individuals are unable to identify this genus, which is generally characterized by shiny trofoliate (three-leaflet) leaves (Toxicodendron vernix has 7 - 13 leaflets.) The plant~s ability to grow either as a shrub or as a woody opportunistic vine that commonly climbs trees and fences confuses the identification process. Yet more confusion persists because of the public~s use of common names. The most important toxic species, Toxicodendron diversilobum (T. & G.) Greene (Poison Oak), Toxicodendron radicans (L.) O. Kuntze (Poison Ivy) and Toxicodendron vernix (L.) O. Kuntze (Poison Sumac), are clear and distinct species, although they are often lumped together under the common name ~Poison Ivy.~ Both climbing and shrub-like forms of T. radicans are common throughout eastern North America, with similar growth forms of T. diversilobum confined to the coast of western North America. Toxicodendron vernix is confined to bogs and cooler areas of eastern North America. The effects of dermal exposure for the three species are similar. Depending upon the degree of sensitization, a pruritic erythematous and vesicular rash will develop within hours or days and may persist for up to 10 days. A linear rash distribution is particularly suggestive of Toxicodendron dermatitis. The treatment is largely symptomatic therapy focused on amelioration of the symptoms. Little or nothing can be done to arrest the process once the exposure has occurred. The value of scrubbing the affected area with soap and water will have no value unless instituted within minutes of the exposure. The entire plant, except the pollen, is toxic throughout the year, even during the winter months when the branches and stems are leafless. Urushiol, a nonvolatile phenolic allergen that acts as a powerful hapten, is contained within the plant~s resin canals and is released when the tissues are injured. Urushiol has as its dermatitis-producing principle pentadecylacatechol. It is estimated that 70% of the United States population would acquire Toxicodendron dermatitis on casual exposure to one of the three species mentioned above. Individuals sensitive to Toxicodendron species may exhibit cross reactions to Japanese lacquer, cashew nut trees, or mango. Contact with these or other genera in the Anacardiaceae should be avoided. The ingestion of Toxicodendron or herbal remedies that contain it can produce life threatening gastroenteritis. Even dermal exposure or inhalation of smoke from burning plant debris containing Toxicodendron can produce severe toxicity. It is a common misconception that the fluid from skin vesicles can spread the rash to other body parts or to other individuals. Medicinally, Toxicodendron has been used to cure eczema and shingles as well as ringworm. The sap, which turns black when exposed to air, was one of the few natural sources of black lacquer dye before the introduction of synthetic dyes. --------*-------- Speaking of folk medicine, medicinal uses of plants...I am not a biology major but have had an interest in this area for some time. Why is it that only one person, James Duke of Dept of Agri., has made a major effort to compile comprehensive lists of medicinal plants uses? Is it possible that modern American medicine has assumptions that run contrary to even the examination of historical and folk use? At the least, by now, I would hope for a large d-base perhaps a CD ROM of thousands of medicinally used plants both in U.S. and abroad, something easily accessible for public search, such as Med Line. Especially as world and American species are being eliminated so quickly. ---------*-------- Here's a "preventative" method for the skin... If you think you have been exposed, wash with hot water (as hot as you can tolerate) and Fels Naptha soap. The soap is horrible on the skin, but it has something which breaks up the oil of the poison. Also, wash the clothes in hot water immediately. The rash from poison ivy can take up to 72 hours to appear after exposure, and is often spread on the body by taking showers while the oils are still on the skin. (The oils often stay on your hands, on the palms in the creases. You usually don't get poison on the palms because the skin is so tough, but you spread it everywhere just by touching.) From: Ecology Center Fund Subject: Re: poison ivy/sumack/oak Date: 28 Apr 92 15:12:00 GMT Look for a product in your supermarket or outdoor goods store called Tecnu. It's nothing short of miraculous. It prevents AND alleviates the rash. Not 100 % effective, but hey, what do you want, a perfect world? :) --------*-------- How to recognize PI/PS/PO: POISON IVY (Toxicodendron radicans = Rhus radicans = Rhus toxicodendron) Found in a wide range of habitats, but in the midwest often seen in disturbed woods, roadsides, and flood plains. Most widespread of PI, PS, and PO. Small, slightly woody plant, or shrubby, or vining. LEAVES ALTERNATE (= 1 leaf per node), TRIFOLIOLATE (=3 leaflets), with pedicel (leafstalk) and the CENTRAL LEAFLET WITH PETIOLULE (=leaflet stalk). The lateral two leaflets are not distinctly stalked. Leaflets are a variety of shapes, but generally ovate or obovate (roughly apple-leaf shaped). Leaflets may be smooth-edged (entire), irregularly toothed, or shallowly lobed. Leaves of one variant form looking like small oak-leaves (but look again!). Leaves apple-green and shiny in the spring, deep green and often dusty in the summer, turning a glorious reddish orange in the fall. Flowers tiny, whitish, in clusters; fruits white berries in late summer or fall. Closest look-alike: Box-elder seedlings (Acer negundo), which has OPPOSITE, trifoliolate leaves; the lateral two leaflets are often slightly stalked. Older box-elders generally have 5 leaflets per leaf. POISON SUMAC (Toxicodendron vernix = Rhus vernix) Shrub, to perhaps 15-20 ft tall, often branched from the base. LEAVES ALTERNATE WITH 7-13 LEAFLETS, lateral leaflets without a petiolule (leaflet stalk), TERMINAL LEAFLET WITH A STALK. MIDRIB OF THE LEAF WITHOUT A PAIR OF WINGS OF TISSUE THAT RUN BETWEEN LEAFLET PAIRS. More small, whitish berries in a long cluster. Usually in wetlands, Maine to Minnesota, south to Texas and Florida. Closest look-alikes: Staghorn sumac, Rhus typhina, which has clusters of fuzzy, red fruits and toothed leaflets, and likes dry soils; Smooth sumac, Rhus glabra, with bright red fruits and slightly toothed leaves; much drier soil than PS. POISON OAK: (Toxicodendron diversiloba = Rhus diversiloba). Reputedly the worst of the bunch. Erect shrub, usually about 3-6ft tall (to 12 ft!), bushy, with ALTERNATE LEAVES OF THREE LEAFLETS, the LEAFLETS generally lobed slightly or as much as an oak leaf; CENTRAL LEAFLET STALKED. Leaves generally bright, shiny green above, paler below. Fruits are small whitish berries. Common on the west coast, esp. low places, thickets and wooded slopes. Occasionally a 5-leafleted form is found. Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI ================================== Ron Rushing Technology Coordinator Stephen F. Austin State University Nacogdoches, TX f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Disclaimer: "Its alright-- Its only me" From f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Mon May 23 00:31:19 EDT 1994 Article: 33188 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Posion Ivy- Everything You Wanted To Know-- Message-ID: <1994May21.212303.8862@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> From: Ron Rushing Date: 21 May 94 21:23:02 CST Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: 144.96.241.50 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2X-XXDate: Sat, 21 May 1994 21:24:50 GMTLines: 454 Lines: 454 Status: O X-Status: I found this doccument in my files. Its a compilation of several items fromhere and there- Appolgies to any authors whos' names were inadvertantly deleted-- =================================== Subject: Re: Poison Ivy, Oak, etc. Date: 1 Jun 92 16:30:07 GMT * Poison Oak, Poison Ivy, and Poison Sumac do pretty much the same thing to you. There is heated debate among botanists about whether Poison Oak and Poison Ivy really the same species. Poison Sumac is at least closely related. * They hurt you through an oil that transfers to your skin, or which you can inhale from the fumes of the burning plant. The oil doesn't wash off with plain water. Ordinary soap usually doesn't do it either. Some people claim to be immune to the irritation from this oil. A subset of these have rolled around in Poison Ivy to prove it. A subset of these have subsequently come down with severe cases of the rash. It would be prudent to avoid Poison Ivy. * The best thing I've found to deal with Poison Ivy is a product called "Technu Poison Oak and Ivy Cleanser" I found in the first-aid section of the drug store. It's a liquid soap that can be used to try and wash out the irritating oil before or after the rash develops (sooner is better). One caution that isn't sufficiently emphasized in the directions: The stuff has a mild anesthetic effect. This makes it possible to wash/scratch the affected area too vigorously. This breaks down the skin's ability to hold together. The effect is like a second-degree burn or the skin underneath a blister. Very painful, and now you have to treat it like a burn, with all the attendant danger of infection, etc. Keep the washing with the Technu gentle, and you should have no problem. Control: -------- 1. The darn stuff grows roots all over the place, just like lots of ivy. Each section seems to be able to grow without much help from the momma plant, once it gets going. That means your ordinary weed killers won't have as much effect on it as you would like. So what if it dies here, it just keeps going over there, under those rocks. We've used Roundup, and the long term effect seems to be that the ivy backs off, waits for everything else that the Roundup killed to decay, and then fills up the space vacated by its wimpy dead friends. Other weed killers, the kind you wouldn't want to have around your horses, may do better. We don't know. 2. You can rip it out by the roots. You'll need equipment and a method. Put on old clothes and tall rubber boots. Put on rubber gloves and coveralls. Let your beard grow a few days if you can, too. Wear a hat, preferably one that protects your ears. Put leather garden gloves over the rubber gloves. Rip the ivy out, being careful not to get it on your face. DON'T scratch any itches, DON'T slap mosquitos, DON'T try to get that little black fly that's starting to munch on your eyeball. Goggles or a beekeeper's bonnet might be helpful, you know. Put all the ivy in a gubbidge bag in a gubbidge bucket, and tie it up. Don't touch the bag again without gloves. To undress: Take off the garden gloves and throw them away, or drop them right into the washer. NOW WASH YOUR HANDS, that is, wash the rubber gloves. With the rubber gloves still on, remove the coveralls and the boots. The coveralls go right into the washer, along with your hat. Wash the boots. Remove the rest of your clothing, and put it all in the washer. NOW WASH YOUR HANDS before you touch yourself -anywhere-. Yes, especially -there-. Be careful where you step, too, so you don't walk in bare feet where you trod with ivy boots. Take a shower or two. Apply anti-histamine or cortisone ointment, or your other Favourite Cure if you discover, a day or two later, that you got some ivy on you anyway, in spite of the precautions. To wash the clothes: add Amway Tri-Zyme or some other good enzyme powder, and soak the clothes for an hour. Then wash them. Then wash them again. 3. Goats eat poison ivy. Keep goats, and they will eat your ivy, along with lots of other stuff. -------*-------- Here's what I've learned over the last few years from experience and also from research at the local University Library. I've spent hours going through dermatology journals reading up on this stuff. If anyone finds mistakes below, or has evidence to the contrary, feel free to post or e-mail me. I'll try and keep this up-to-date. ON THE RASH: * The irritant in poison ivy, poison sumac, and poison oak is urushiol. Urushiol is also found in the lacquer tree, but I doubt you have one of those. The rash you get is an allergic reaction. Everything I say below about poison ivy should also apply to poison oak and sumac. * If you brush up against a healthy undamaged plant, you won't usually get urushiol on you. You usually have to come in contact with a damaged leaf. Almost all plants have damaged leaves - either from insects, weather, or from your stepping on them. * The toxin exists in varying concentrations in the leaves, stems, and roots. I have gotten a rash from all three, although the reaction I got from the roots was very minor. * The oil is easily transferred from one place to another. For example, I got some on my shoelaces once, and I kept getting poison ivy on my hands for a couple of months before I figured out what was going on :-(. Once it is on your hands, it can, and will, end up anywhere on you body :-O . It is also common for it to be picked up on the hair of your dog or horse, and then repeatedly transferred to you. * Once you get the oil on clothing, it can sit for months and still cause a rash upon contact with your skin. For example,lets say you get some poison ivy oil on your boots, then put the boots away for the winter. Next spring you get out the boots and go for a walk - but not in the woods. A few days later, voila - your hands are breaking out from putting on your boots and tying the laces. * The first time you in your life you're exposed to urushiol, you will not react to it. In other words, you get one free pass. After that, your body develops an allergic reaction, which is the rash you get from subsequent exposures. The literature says it is possible to lose your allergic response if you are not exposed for a long period of time, like 10 years or more. So, if you haven't gotten poison ivy in 10 years, you may get another free pass. There are a number of other chemical irritants (like trinitrochlorobenzene) that also cause this type of allergic response in your skin, but hopefully you'll never have to worry about them. * There is no known way to build up an immunity to the oil. There is anecdotal evidence of people drinking teas made from poison ivy to try and build up an immunity. They got sick and got rashes on their butts. * Not all humans are allergic to urushiol. I think about 1 in 7 (or was it 1 in 15) are not allergic. Native Americans (a.k.a. American Indians) tend to NOT be allergic. * If you think you've come into contact with poison ivy, throw everything in the wash when you get home. Wash yourself with COLD WATER. The oil is supposedly soluble in water. If you use warm water, it will cause the pores in your skin to open up, enabling the oil to get deeper in your skin. * Tall socks and long pants are highly recommended when hiking through poison ivy. In places where the ivy can grow tall, a long-sleeve shirt is also a good idea. * If you really want to hike in shorts in poison-ivy country, there is this goop you can put on your legs that will keep it off your skin. I've used it before and didn't get a rash, but I don't know if I came into physical contact with poison ivy. This goop is available at larger sporting-goods stores. * Interestingly, I've found that the best way to keep from getting poison ivy is to learn to recognize the plants. After unsuccessfully spraying it for years (it's everywhere on our property), I can spot it at 100 ft. I used to get a rash every year - sometimes 2 or three times in a summer. This was simply because I didn't notice where I was walking or sitting. I spend more time in our woods than ever, now, and I haven't picked up poison ivy in 2 years. This co-existence works fine for me, but not always as well for unescorted visitors :-(. There can be substantial variation between plants, so learn to recognize all the variants of leaf formation, etc. * If you get a rash, you pretty much have to wait it out. However, you CAN treat the symptons - namely itching. I've found hydrocortizone cream to work well at reducing the itch. I believe The FDA has recently increased the non-prescription strength from .5% to 1%, so make sure you get the stronger stuff. If it's really bad, see your doctor. Although it's unlikely, you want to make sure any complications are treated quickly. This is more likely to happen if you are exposed over a very large part of your body. * Each person reacts a little differently, but on me, it takes 1.5-2 days after exposure to notice an itch, and 2-3 weeks before the blisters have gone away. * As long as you've washed the original oil off your skin, the puss from the blisters should not re-infect your skin. It's just puss, and does not contain urushiol. ON GETTING RID OF THE PLANTS: * If you only have a small number of plants, you can physically remove them, but BE CAREFUL. Use rubber gloves, and put the plants and the gloves in a plastic bag when done. Wash ANYTHING that touches the plants in cold water. * I've had no success with 2,4-D. Although the packaging says it's indicated for poison ivy, I've found that the leaves just turn brown and fall off, and then come right back. Even after 2 or 3 applications, the plants keep coming back. * Roundup (or one of the cheaper equivalents) works much better, but you'll need 2 applications, 4-6 weeks apart. * If you do go the chemical route, I suggest getting a dye from your local nursery and mixing it with the Roundup so you can see where you've sprayed. They call it a marker, since it 'marks' where you've sprayed. There are other types of markers, including foams, but I've had better luck with dyes. The kind I use is dark blue, and disappears within a day of use. I've usually been able to get away with 1/2 the recommended dose - your milage may vary. The advantages are that you can verify hitting all the leaves, but you don't end up re-spraying stuff you've already hit. The end result is better kill, less cost (because you use less Roundup), and less damage to the environment. * Even if you think you've killed all the plants, expect some to come back from the roots next year. * NEVER, NEVER, NEVER burn poison ivy. The oil can be carried up with the smoke, and can be VERY nasty if inhaled. Andy Goris >* The best thing I've found to deal with Poison Ivy is a product > called "Technu Poison Oak and Ivy Cleanser" I found in the first-aid > section of the drug store. It's a liquid soap that can be used to > try and wash out the irritating oil before or after the rash > develops (sooner is better). One caution that isn't sufficiently > emphasized in the directions: The stuff has a mild anesthetic > effect. This makes it possible to wash/scratch the affected area > too vigorously. This breaks down the skin's ability to hold > together. The effect is like a second-degree burn or the skin > underneath a blister. Very painful, and now you have to treat it > like a burn, with all the attendant danger of infection, etc. Keep > the washing with the Technu gentle, and you should have no problem. > - PauL Drews Actually, the best thing to use is ethanol. Probably cheaper than the above product, anyway. Ethanol acts as a solvent for the toxin found in poison ivy (Toxicodendrol, I believe). there's a blurb in the latest Business Week on the University of Mississippi, in that they have figured out more about what Poison Ivy does to you - and have some level of immunization shot. one per year is what they mentioned in the article. it's the Business Week with the cover about women in industry. Date: 3 Jun 92 15:15:14 GMT >there's a blurb in the latest Business Week on the University of >Mississippi, in that they have figured out more about what Poison Ivy >does to you - and have some level of immunization shot. one per year >is what they mentioned in the article. it's the Business Week with the >cover about women in industry. They've actually had the immunization for several years. Last I knew there was one problem. You need to make sure you get the shot EARLY in the year, *BEFORE* poison ivy is up and growing. Encountering poison ivy shortly after the shot can cause an *Extremely* nasty case of the stuff... >From an upcoming medical journal article. Toxicodendron species (Poison Oak, Poison Ivy, Poison Sumac) Anacardiaceae (Cashew or Sumac family). The genus contains approximately 15 species found in eastern Asia, North and South America. The literature contains considerable nomenclatural controversy and confusion, and most early works place ~Poison Oak,~ ~Poison Ivy~ and ~Poison Sumac~ in the genus Rhus. In addition, medical literature usually persists in referring to the toxic effects of these plants as Rhus dermatitis. Recent taxonomic studies place these toxic plants of the Anacardiaceae in the genus Toxicodendron, while the genus Rhus contains nontoxic plants. Toxicodendron is generally known by the public as the most villainous plant for its ability to produce contact dermatitis. Although the consequences of Toxicodendron exposure are usually well-known, most individuals are unable to identify this genus, which is generally characterized by shiny trofoliate (three-leaflet) leaves (Toxicodendron vernix has 7 - 13 leaflets.) The plant~s ability to grow either as a shrub or as a woody opportunistic vine that commonly climbs trees and fences confuses the identification process. Yet more confusion persists because of the public~s use of common names. The most important toxic species, Toxicodendron diversilobum (T. & G.) Greene (Poison Oak), Toxicodendron radicans (L.) O. Kuntze (Poison Ivy) and Toxicodendron vernix (L.) O. Kuntze (Poison Sumac), are clear and distinct species, although they are often lumped together under the common name ~Poison Ivy.~ Both climbing and shrub-like forms of T. radicans are common throughout eastern North America, with similar growth forms of T. diversilobum confined to the coast of western North America. Toxicodendron vernix is confined to bogs and cooler areas of eastern North America. The effects of dermal exposure for the three species are similar. Depending upon the degree of sensitization, a pruritic erythematous and vesicular rash will develop within hours or days and may persist for up to 10 days. A linear rash distribution is particularly suggestive of Toxicodendron dermatitis. The treatment is largely symptomatic therapy focused on amelioration of the symptoms. Little or nothing can be done to arrest the process once the exposure has occurred. The value of scrubbing the affected area with soap and water will have no value unless instituted within minutes of the exposure. The entire plant, except the pollen, is toxic throughout the year, even during the winter months when the branches and stems are leafless. Urushiol, a nonvolatile phenolic allergen that acts as a powerful hapten, is contained within the plant~s resin canals and is released when the tissues are injured. Urushiol has as its dermatitis-producing principle pentadecylacatechol. It is estimated that 70% of the United States population would acquire Toxicodendron dermatitis on casual exposure to one of the three species mentioned above. Individuals sensitive to Toxicodendron species may exhibit cross reactions to Japanese lacquer, cashew nut trees, or mango. Contact with these or other genera in the Anacardiaceae should be avoided. The ingestion of Toxicodendron or herbal remedies that contain it can produce life threatening gastroenteritis. Even dermal exposure or inhalation of smoke from burning plant debris containing Toxicodendron can produce severe toxicity. It is a common misconception that the fluid from skin vesicles can spread the rash to other body parts or to other individuals. Medicinally, Toxicodendron has been used to cure eczema and shingles as well as ringworm. The sap, which turns black when exposed to air, was one of the few natural sources of black lacquer dye before the introduction of synthetic dyes. --------*-------- Speaking of folk medicine, medicinal uses of plants...I am not a biology major but have had an interest in this area for some time. Why is it that only one person, James Duke of Dept of Agri., has made a major effort to compile comprehensive lists of medicinal plants uses? Is it possible that modern American medicine has assumptions that run contrary to even the examination of historical and folk use? At the least, by now, I would hope for a large d-base perhaps a CD ROM of thousands of medicinally used plants both in U.S. and abroad, something easily accessible for public search, such as Med Line. Especially as world and American species are being eliminated so quickly. ---------*-------- Here's a "preventative" method for the skin... If you think you have been exposed, wash with hot water (as hot as you can tolerate) and Fels Naptha soap. The soap is horrible on the skin, but it has something which breaks up the oil of the poison. Also, wash the clothes in hot water immediately. The rash from poison ivy can take up to 72 hours to appear after exposure, and is often spread on the body by taking showers while the oils are still on the skin. (The oils often stay on your hands, on the palms in the creases. You usually don't get poison on the palms because the skin is so tough, but you spread it everywhere just by touching.) From: Ecology Center Fund Subject: Re: poison ivy/sumack/oak Date: 28 Apr 92 15:12:00 GMT Look for a product in your supermarket or outdoor goods store called Tecnu. It's nothing short of miraculous. It prevents AND alleviates the rash. Not 100 % effective, but hey, what do you want, a perfect world? :) --------*-------- How to recognize PI/PS/PO: POISON IVY (Toxicodendron radicans = Rhus radicans = Rhus toxicodendron) Found in a wide range of habitats, but in the midwest often seen in disturbed woods, roadsides, and flood plains. Most widespread of PI, PS, and PO. Small, slightly woody plant, or shrubby, or vining. LEAVES ALTERNATE (= 1 leaf per node), TRIFOLIOLATE (=3 leaflets), with pedicel (leafstalk) and the CENTRAL LEAFLET WITH PETIOLULE (=leaflet stalk). The lateral two leaflets are not distinctly stalked. Leaflets are a variety of shapes, but generally ovate or obovate (roughly apple-leaf shaped). Leaflets may be smooth-edged (entire), irregularly toothed, or shallowly lobed. Leaves of one variant form looking like small oak-leaves (but look again!). Leaves apple-green and shiny in the spring, deep green and often dusty in the summer, turning a glorious reddish orange in the fall. Flowers tiny, whitish, in clusters; fruits white berries in late summer or fall. Closest look-alike: Box-elder seedlings (Acer negundo), which has OPPOSITE, trifoliolate leaves; the lateral two leaflets are often slightly stalked. Older box-elders generally have 5 leaflets per leaf. POISON SUMAC (Toxicodendron vernix = Rhus vernix) Shrub, to perhaps 15-20 ft tall, often branched from the base. LEAVES ALTERNATE WITH 7-13 LEAFLETS, lateral leaflets without a petiolule (leaflet stalk), TERMINAL LEAFLET WITH A STALK. MIDRIB OF THE LEAF WITHOUT A PAIR OF WINGS OF TISSUE THAT RUN BETWEEN LEAFLET PAIRS. More small, whitish berries in a long cluster. Usually in wetlands, Maine to Minnesota, south to Texas and Florida. Closest look-alikes: Staghorn sumac, Rhus typhina, which has clusters of fuzzy, red fruits and toothed leaflets, and likes dry soils; Smooth sumac, Rhus glabra, with bright red fruits and slightly toothed leaves; much drier soil than PS. POISON OAK: (Toxicodendron diversiloba = Rhus diversiloba). Reputedly the worst of the bunch. Erect shrub, usually about 3-6ft tall (to 12 ft!), bushy, with ALTERNATE LEAVES OF THREE LEAFLETS, the LEAFLETS generally lobed slightly or as much as an oak leaf; CENTRAL LEAFLET STALKED. Leaves generally bright, shiny green above, paler below. Fruits are small whitish berries. Common on the west coast, esp. low places, thickets and wooded slopes. Occasionally a 5-leafleted form is found. Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI ================================== Ron Rushing Technology Coordinator Stephen F. Austin State University Nacogdoches, TX f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Disclaimer: "Its alright-- Its only me" From scd@atria.com Mon May 23 18:23:52 EDT 1994 Article: 33307 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: Black Widows... Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> <2rjrq9$p2f@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 16:00:35 GMT Lines: 47 Status: O X-Status: Larry London (london@sunSITE.unc.edu) wrote: : In article <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> (S.L.Compton) writes: : >Thanks so much to all who gave me some VERY valuable insight into these : >nasty little creatures. : I have saved 3 informative posts on Black Widows as a faq for the : gardening archives at sunSITE.unc.edu. I would also like to prepare faqs : on a few other nasty critters for the archives. Could anyone post : information on the following: : 1) treatment of snakebite, esp. copperheads; maintaining a reasonably : snake-free perimeter around a residence : 2) centipedes (Hellgrammite ?), where they are usually found, : risks involved in getting stung, treatment of sting : 3) brown recluse spider bite; where they are found, how to get rid of them : 4) how to deal with bee/wasp/yellowjacket/hornet/bumblebee sting; : what to do if you're allergic and get stung - how to use beesting : emergency kit to forestall anaphylactic shock - what to do if allergic : reaction takes the form of tachycardia or irregular heartbeat : 5) info on any other poisonous reptiles or insects : At sunSITE.unc.edu these faqs will be in: : pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/faqs : pub/academic/medicine/alternative-healthcare/faqs : pub/academic/agriculture/rural-skills/faqs : Are there other ftp sites making any of this information available? : Thanks, : Lawrence : london@sunSITE.unc.edu BE CAREFUL!!!! The information posted about treatment MUST BE QUALIFIED! You should confirm the credentials of anyone offering "medical" advice, esp if you intend to make it public! I will post information on the topics asked for, but I will limit the information to what is safe for the general populus... Regards, Steve -- From saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Mon May 23 18:32:32 EDT 1994 Article: 33338 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Why does't any one answer me back? Date: Mon, 23 May 94 13:13:28 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 32 Message-ID: <2rr3im$hdv@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <027817DAMSVXPLINAPUV@society.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > From: wl-mr_ig-iga@society.com >> IN>> : Hi there I am new to the informaton highway and i have noticed the > IN>> same thing I have answered all the mail sent me but much I send is > IN>> unanswered.almost all is when I send out a general plea for help.Maybe > IN>> you can help. I need to find a source for seedling of the caperbush > IN>> herb ( capers) I simply have not been albe to get them to germinate!! ] > IN>> I also need to find a ground cover for my irsis bed.Most mulch seems > IN>> to choke the rhizomes and most ground covers have a very thick mat > IN>> maybe we can be penpals :) > IN>> > please explain capers? > where do they come from? > Have you tried the seeds of change folks? I'll see if I can find their > E-mail address. > yours Capers are the pickled flower buds of Capparis spinosa, or the Caper-Bush, and are an important culinary ingredient in many recipes. It is a straggling, spiny shrub, 3 or more ft. high, from the Mediterranean Region. Capparis is the ancient classical name for capers. I note that a California grower of interesting and unusual plant, San Marcos Growers, Santa Barbara, does distribute this plant to our local mild climates. Seed is available from Chiltern Seeds (Bortree Stile, Ulverston, Cumbria LA12 7PB, England, catalog $3). Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Mon May 23 18:32:48 EDT 1994 Article: 33339 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Caper Bush (repost from bad subject line) Date: Mon, 23 May 94 13:26:13 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 33 Message-ID: <2rr3qg$hdv@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <2rr3im$hdv@agate.berkeley.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > From: wl-mr_ig-iga@society.com >> IN>> : Hi there I am new to the informaton highway and i have noticed the > IN>> same thing I have answered all the mail sent me but much I send is > IN>> unanswered.almost all is when I send out a general plea for help.Maybe > IN>> you can help. I need to find a source for seedling of the caperbush > IN>> herb ( capers) I simply have not been albe to get them to germinate!! ] > IN>> I also need to find a ground cover for my irsis bed.Most mulch seems > IN>> to choke the rhizomes and most ground covers have a very thick mat > IN>> maybe we can be penpals :) > IN>> > please explain capers? > where do they come from? > Have you tried the seeds of change folks? I'll see if I can find their > E-mail address. > yours Capers are the pickled flower buds of Capparis spinosa, or the Caper-Bush, and are an important culinary ingredient in many recipes. It is a straggling, spiny shrub, 3 or more ft. high, from the Mediterranean Region. Capparis is the ancient classical name for capers. I note that a California grower of interesting and unusual plant, San Marcos Growers, Santa Barbara, does distribute this plant to our local mild climates. Seed is available from Chiltern Seeds (Bortree Stile, Ulverston, Cumbria LA12 7PB, England, catalog $3). Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From jcp@clark.net Mon May 23 22:19:19 EDT 1994 Article: 33291 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-2.peachnet.edu!darwin.sura.net!udel!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!news.clark.net!not-for-mail From: jcp@clark.net (Jody C. Patilla) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Articles About Killing Things Date: 23 May 1994 11:58:14 -0400 Organization: Fluffy Otter Kindercare Lines: 22 Message-ID: <2rqjqm$b9s@explorer.clark.net> References: <2rb110$q34$1@verbosa.ncd.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: In article , Steve Daukas wrote: Yes, there are indeed commercial farms which are completely (and some nearly-so) organic. Look through back issues of Harrowsmith and Organic Gardening magazines for specific articles. There are very successful organic farms in europe, too - especially in the Netherlands. The Amish do not use chemical fertilizers or pesticides, and have very productive farms. In fact, they have achieved the opposite problem - they put so much animal manure on their land that the nitrogen-rich runoff threatens Chesapeake Bay drainage and there is a program in parts of Pennsylvania to work with Amish farmers to reduce the amount of manure used (by composting with other materials, etc). -- jcpatilla jcp@clark.net Do your otters dance the Morris? Do they shake their bells and bows? Do they love that fiddle music? Do they leap and kick their toes? From semi0427@ube.ubalt.edu Mon May 23 22:20:58 EDT 1994 Article: 33352 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!news.ubalt.edu!ube.ubalt.edu!semi0427 Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: poison ivy-a way of life Message-ID: <1994May23.184708.1@ube.ubalt.edu> From: semi0427@ube.ubalt.edu Date: 23 May 94 18:47:08 -0500 Organization: University of Baltimore Nntp-Posting-Host: ube Nntp-Posting-User: semi0346 Lines: 14 Status: O X-Status: since i work in the landscaping industry, i am very familiar with the various forms of poison stuff, as i like to call it. poison ivy. oak, sumac, etc are a semipermanent add addition to my skin during the season. the guy i work with claims you buid up a resistance... who know? i just use Ivarest (made byblistek) and enjoy hot showers and soap... soaking in saltwater for really bad case is painful, but clears the stuff up fast. good luck. gerry From f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Mon May 23 22:21:11 EDT 1994 Article: 33368 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!ccsvax.sfasu.edu!news Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Poison ivy Message-ID: <1994May23.195058.8863@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> From: Ron Rushing Date: 23 May 94 19:50:58 CST References: <1453300685@cdp> <2rmm5o$376@rainbow.sosi.com> Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: 144.96.241.50 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2X-XXDate: Mon, 23 May 1994 19:53:11 GMTLines: 17 Lines: 17 Status: O X-Status: In article cmf0, writes: >As far as "after touching the ivy," I learned in this newsgroup >a few summers ago about the wonders of "Tecnu." This special >soap --used as directed-- eliminates the poison ivy oils from the >skin, and --if the rash has already begun-- alleviates the itching. Just thought I'd echo Christina's comments-- I also have had good results with this TECHNU product. Used several times a day, it has helped reduce the inflamation and the itching. Ron Rushing Technology Coordinator Stephen F. Austin State University Nacogdoches, TX f_rushingrg@ccsvax.sfasu.edu Disclaimer: "Its alright-- Its only me" From echang@cbmse.nrl.navy.mil Tue May 24 05:15:15 EDT 1994 Article: 33278 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!darwin.sura.net!ra!Eddie.Chang From: echang@cbmse.nrl.navy.mil (Eddie Chang) Subject: Re: more compost questions Message-ID: X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0@ra.nrl.navy.mil. Lines: 34 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[3268] Organization: nrl References: <2rdjlf$66l@bronze.coil.com> <2rgklrINNci@booth.cs.utk.edu> Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 15:08:30 GMT Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. Status: O X-Status: In article <2rgklrINNci@booth.cs.utk.edu> booth@cs.utk.edu (Heather Booth) writes: > My husband and I have been composting for over a year in a bin > made from pallets (it is a cube about 3-4 feet on a side). We > want to compost mainly so we don't have to throw away our vegetable > scraps. Getting a critical biomass (and that doesn't include dirt) for starting a compost pile is important. I have found the following to work well: -In the Fall, rake your leaves up and use a mower or chipper to shred the leaves. -Pile the shredded leaves into a pile (bins aren't even necessary)--should be at least 3 x 4 x 3 in volume (You can put in a little fertilizer to up the N-content, if you wish). -Hose down pile every 6"-12" as you're building it up. -Cover pile with plastic to decrease evaporation. Your pile should be steaming hot in a week--even in wintry conditions. -Put your vegies into this leave mold compost throughout Fall and winter. -Make another one in Spring for the rest of the year. I've never used dirt in this method. Sometimes I would pile branches at the bottom for better aeration, but then they become a nuisance when I have to dig to the bottom. I also push in a stick "Thermometer" to keep track of the warmth during the aerobic stage of decomposition--it's very satisfying to pull out that steaming hot stick on a frosty morning. Good luck! Eddie Chang echang@cbmse.nrl.navy.mil (eddie chang) Standard disclaimers apply. From jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org Tue May 24 05:16:11 EDT 1994 Article: 33269 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: more compost questions From: jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!zip.eecs.umich.edu!umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.2358.2817.0N42A2D9@granite.mn.org> Date: Mon, 23 May 94 00:59:00 +0600 Organization: Granite City Connection St. Cloud MN 612-654-8372 Lines: 55 Status: O X-Status: Subject: more compost questions Heather writes: HB>My husband and I have been composting for over a year in a bin >made from pallets (it is a cube about 3-4 feet on a side). We >want to compost mainly so we don't have to throw away our vegetable >scraps. For table scraps and vegetables, I recommend smaller enclosed bins. Large open air bins such as you describe are best suited for batch, not continuous flow composting. Your type of bin dries out too quickly, is hard to inoculate with old compost, has corners that stay cool, and is generally unwieldy for small amounts of matter. We generate about a large stock pot worth of vegetable >scraps a week or maybe a little more. We want to be able to add >the vegetable scraps to the heap without much trouble, but we have >had trouble with a bad smell and flies unless we cover the vegetables >completely with dirt (even leaves didn't work). Your loading rate exceeds the microbial capability to decompose the material. You need to begin active composting or throw the scraps into the landfill. Flies are a sign that something is wrong. Passive composting for the loading rate (amount of stinky stuff) you have just doesn't cut it. This is a lot of >trouble - either we have to add a lot of dirt or we have to dig >around in the semi-composted mass to try to get the vegetables all >covered up. Surely there is an easier way. There is no "easy way" to compost putrescible matter. Think of an "easy way" to bake bread. The easy way is to send the material to a centralized composting site where they practice active composting. Then purchase the finished compost from them. Like you buy bread from a baker. I have seen a lot of >information on composting but I haven't found a solution to our >dilemma. I would appreciate any advice. Check out my previous notes on active composting. It really isn't all that difficult once you get the hang of it. I don't turn my piles once they are properly made, mixed, and situated to self-aerate from the base. I let redworms do the curing. Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly Granite Connection 612-259-0801 jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * May 22nd - Composters have heaps of fun. From bebb@ferndown.ate.slb.com Tue May 24 05:17:22 EDT 1994 Article: 33318 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!news.sinet.slb.com!news.london.sinet.slb.com!mac_140.ferndown.ate.slb.com!user From: bebb@ferndown.ate.slb.com (Malcolm Bebb) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: more compost questions Followup-To: rec.gardens Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 17:58:57 +0100 Organization: Schlumberger Technologies ATE Lines: 53 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <36.2358.2817.0N42A2D9@granite.mn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac_140.ferndown.ate.slb.com Status: O X-Status: In article <36.2358.2817.0N42A2D9@granite.mn.org>, jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) wrote: > Subject: more compost questions > > Heather writes: > > HB>My husband and I have been composting for over a year in a bin > >made from pallets (it is a cube about 3-4 feet on a side). We > >want to compost mainly so we don't have to throw away our vegetable > >scraps. > > For table scraps and vegetables, I recommend smaller enclosed bins. > Large open air bins such as you describe are best suited for batch, not > continuous flow composting. I'd go along with this. You could maybe cut the pallets down to make a smaller container and lid. Despite the advice from the hot heap enthusiasts, if you can't get the materials to make a big enough batch, you can't run a hot compost heat. End of story, and there are many in this position. With your input I would use a heap 3x3 or probably smaller, height depending on materials to hand. Insulating the sides is irrelevant, but I would aim for a reasonably fly-proof cover. Spread the new material on top, don't put it all in one spot. As I understand the theory, adding soil to a hot heap is bad news, it just slows things down. Initial breakdown of materials is due to aerobic bacteria which breed quickly in the warm conditions, soil doesn't contribute to their action. In a cold heap you can't get the right conditions for these bacteria. Adding soil not only delivers extra bacteria, but creates conditions more to the liking of the bacteria that you do have. Keeping the top dark with a lid encourages worms to work in the heap, right to the top if it's not too wet inside. In general there is enough moisture, so you don't want rain getting in, but be guided by what's happening to your heap. This year I'm using a commercial twin bin product with netting sides - it seems to work Ok, but tends to be on the dry side so I don't cover it too much. For the couple of years before that I used an old wooden packing case, upturned with the bottom as a lid. That worked best when covered. Be prepared to experiment a little. There are plenty of ways to make a socially acceptable compost heap. Malcolm bebb@ferndown.ate.slb.com (Usual disclaimers apply) Tech Pubs bebb@embetech.demon.co.uk From gwv@sequoia.cray.com Tue May 24 23:32:56 EDT 1994 Article: 33451 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!driftwood.cray.com!gwv From: gwv@sequoia.cray.com (George Walter VandenBerghe) Subject: Re: Black Widow Bites and Their Treatment Message-ID: <1994May24.135704.744@driftwood.cray.com> Originator: gwv@sequoia Lines: 34 Sender: gwv@sequoia (George Walter VandenBerghe) Nntp-Posting-Host: sequoia Organization: Cray Research, Inc. References: <2rgpju$17b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Date: 24 May 94 13:57:03 CDT Status: O X-Status: In article , oispeggy@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes: > In article <2rgpju$17b@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes... > > > >I just checked a couple of basic emergency medicine texts for the treatment > >of Black Widow spider bites. Here is a brief version of what they say > > > >1. The only first aid is the application of an ice-pack to the bite. This > >is only to relieve the pain. The bite may not hurt at first, but within > >15 minutes severe pain will appear and spread. > > > > [text deleted...] > > >7 FINALLY AND MOST IMPORTANT!!! Black Widow bites are VERY dangerous > >to children. One source sums it up this way "A bite that may cause an > >adult several hours of severe pain and 2-3 days of serious discomfort can > >easily produce complete caridac decompensation and respiratory failure > >in a child." > > Thanks for the information. Where do the damned things live? > I've never heard of any in New York State. Do they live in > Florida, near Tampa? My parents live there and I want to make > sure my 1 year old son doesn't meet up with one. > > - Peggy - > Black Widows occur throughout the U.S. They are more common in the southern half but can be found in any of the 48 states. I don't know about Hawaii or Alaska. They are very common in Florida. From rhill@dvorak.amd.com Wed May 25 22:56:45 EDT 1994 Article: 33515 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!pacbell.com!amdahl!amd!amdint.amd.com!txnews.amd.com!rhill From: rhill@dvorak.amd.com (Robert Hill) Subject: Compost FAQ? Message-ID: Originator: rhill@bianca Sender: news@txnews.amd.com Nntp-Posting-Host: bianca Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Austin TX Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 19:23:02 GMT Lines: 8 Status: O X-Status: I am interested in starting a compost, and have read alot of great postings lately with hints of how to have a healthy, happy compost pile. But I need a little help getting started, and wondered if there was a compost FAQ floating around anywhere. Please post its whereabouts, as many others may be interested as well. Thanks, Bob Hill From ai811@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri May 27 05:29:49 EDT 1994 Article: 33666 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!wupost!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ai811 From: ai811@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jon Meyer) Subject: Re: garden software Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca Reply-To: ai811@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Jon Meyer) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <1994May26.203051.6903@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 05:36:50 GMT Lines: 35 Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, como@ax61.bnl.gov () says: >Looking for garden software. Can anyone help > >Thanks in advance There is a program called `Sprout!' which is sold by Abracadabra, Ltd. It is a graphical based program for designing your garden. It has a number of plant databases that contain all sorts of info on flowers and veggies. You use a mouse to draw plots of various crops. It will even tell you the yield of veggies for a given area of planting. The screen is scaled in feet or meters (your choice). When you have finalized a design you can print it out. It will also produce a seed list (the number of seeds that you will need for each type of plant) that corresponds to the size of plots that you drew. Here's there address: Abracadabra, Ltd. PO BOX 2440 Eugene, OR 97402 or ask at your favourite software place. Later :-), -- Jon Meyer ai811@freenet.carleton.ca | af297@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu pike@cyberspace.org | (^.^) ________________________________________ From clee@cbnewsb.cb.att.com Mon May 30 00:11:03 EDT 1994 Article: 33625 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!walter!fang!ulysses!allegra!cbnewsm!cbnewsl!cbnewsj!cbnewsi!cbnewsh!cbnewse!cbnewsd!cbnewsc!cbfsb!cbnewsb.cb.att.com!clee From: clee@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (chris.c.lee) Subject: Some thoughts about this group Message-ID: Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com Organization: AT&T Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 15:17:17 GMT Lines: 23 Status: O X-Status: For years I have been login to internet just rambling around different news groups, reading other people's posting from every corners of the world. I would rather not post any of my thoughts, simply because I was afraid that people would jump on me for a word or sentence, or accuse me of wasting their time on a studpid question. Until two months ago I found this group. People share and get the knowledge here. Once a while, there's a disagreement, but that always adds more interests to this group which readers can benefit from. I would say, we are the happiest group in this network. The only complaint I have is that our traffic is still to slow. So, I started to post something (just learned the postnews command,) you may want to call me a first-time-caller and a long-time-listener (the talk-radio and internet are all products of the 90s, aren't they?) Of course, with my limited knowledge I can only ask questions. I just want to let you folks know how much I appreciate your feedback and response. That small corner of my yard is florescent, I hope this group does the same too. Thanks to you all. -- Chris From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon May 30 00:19:20 EDT 1994 Article: 33710 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367 From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Subject: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 17:06:31 GMT Lines: 606 Status: O X-Status: BACKGROUND INFORMATION ON PESTICIDES. BY FAX PHONE 825-4034 EMAIL CONTACT ar367@freenet.carelton.ca WHAT IS AN ADDICTED LAWN? An addicted lawn is a lawn without a healty biologically active soil. Pesticides like 2,4-D and MCPA destroy the life giving property of soils making harmful fertilizers like urea necessary. a viscous and very profitable circle. Your lawn has become addicted to drugs. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY: 1: Commonly used lawn care products contain products that are known to cause cancers of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon, prostate and liver. Also disorders of the skin and liver, reproductive and developmental disorders, low sperm counts, increased birth defects, phycological effects, immune system disorders, gastrointestinal ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism are known to occur in people who use pesticides. 2: Pesticides have been linked to childhood brain tumours and leukaemia. 3: Pesticides mimic natural estrogens, because of this they are associated with breast cancer and testicular cancer. 4: Dogs of home owners who spray pesticides are more likely to get one of the fastest growing types of cancers in humans. 5: Pesticide use is growing, especially in the lawn care industry. Its growth is paralleled by a steady increase in cancer deaths in humans. 6: Humans are in the process of becoming immune to pesticides, like any population where this has occurred a majority of the population must die or fail to reproduce. Human sperm counts are down 50% over the last 50 years. 7: Pesticides pose a serious threat to ground water, birds, bees, fish. 8: Most pesticides have NOT been tested for safety. They are regulated. There is no safe pesticide. 9: The process to determine if a pesticide is safe is called risk assessment. This process is used to calculate how many people it is acceptable to kill with a product. 10: Evidence indicates that the pesticide industry can not be trusted. In the past they have shipped banned products to the third world, used dangerous manufacturing processes that have killed thousands of people and they have falsified product safety data. 11: Lawn care companies regularly misrepresent their products as safe. No government agency has ever labelled any pesticide as safe. 12: Workers with at least one year of exposure are more likely to get cancers of the lung and suffer unexplained premature death. There is a dramatic increase in soft tissue sarcomas among pesticide workers. 13:You can stop pesticide spraying in your community. On Aug 19 1993 a superior court judge ruled that the municipality of Hudson was legal in passing a bylaw outlawing the spraying of pesticides around homes. Although pesticide regulations are a matter of provincial jurisdiction the Judge decided the town council acted in response to a PUBLIC HEALTH MENACE under Quebec's Cities and Towns Act. Ontario has a similarly worded act that allows municipalities to rule on matters that are of concern to the health and well being of residents. COMMON WEED KILLERS ARE LINKED TO HEALTH PROBLEMS There have been over 200 independent studies that link 2,4-D with various diseases. 2,4-D is found in 1,500 over the counter weed killers. The National Cancer Institute has linked pesticide exposures to lymphatic cancers. Their study was based on 948 farmers who had cancer and an equal number who did not. Exposed individuals were 600% more likely to contract cancer than people who did not contact the pesticide. Farmers who used protective equipment, such as respirators, gloves, and a change of clothing after contact were able to reduce the risk by only 20%. Hazleton laboratories found that 10% of rats exposed to 2,4-D developed brain tumours. 2,4-D is contaminated with dioxins during manufacture. Dioxins are the most potent poison known to man. The Veterans Legal Services Project of Washington D.C. reviewed 285 different published studies of human exposure to phenoxy herbicides and dioxins. They found that they caused specific cancers, skin and liver disorders, reproductive and developmental disorders, low sperm counts, spontaneous abortions in the wives of the affected individuals, increased birth defects, including skin, nerve, heart, kidney, and cleft lips and palate. The study went on to say there was "sound scientific evidence" of an association between the 2-4,D and a whole host of other diseases including cancer of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon, prostate, liver, psychological effects, immune system disorders, gastrointestinal ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism. Another common chemical used for lawn care is M.C.P.A. (4- CHLOR-2METHYLPHENOXY ACIDIC ACID). This is an organic acid that is closely related to 2,4-D. The chemical industry will create a compound similar to a pesticide that is found to be dangerous. It takes years for the new chemical to be proven as dangerous as the old chemical. The two most common weed killers used around the home are 2,4- D and diazanon. Diazanon is known to be a hazard to songbirds. SOURCES: A. Blair, " Herbicides and non-Hodgkins lymphoma New evidence from a study of Saskatchewan farmers" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 1990 Pages 544-545 Olav Axelson and others, " Herbicide Exposure and Tumour Mortality" Scandinavian Journal of Work, Environment, and Health Volume 6 March 1980 pages 73-79 Mikael Eriksson and others," Exposure to Dioxins as a risk factor for Soft Tissue Sarcoma: A Population based case control study" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 March 22 1991 pages 486-490 National Veterans Legal Services Project "Human Health Effects Associated with exposure to Herbicides and or their associated Contaminants - Chlorinated Dioxins" (Washington D.C. National Veterans Legal Services Project, 2001 S Street N.W. Washington D.C. PESTICIDES HARM CHILDREN LEUKAEMIA A parents use of pesticides around the home can increase a childs' risk of developing leukaemia. A 1993 study looked at 123 pairs of families, one family with a child less than 10 year old with leukaemia matched with a healthy child of identical age, race, socioeconomic status and sex. Parental exposure to pesticides inside the home, or in the garden increased the children's risk of leukaemia. Previous studies have linked pesticides to leukaemia in farmers. This is the first study showing a link between household pesticides and leukaemia in children. BRAIN CANCERS The incidence of childhood brain cancers has increased 47% between 1973 and 1988. The cause of brain cancer is unknown. It is usually fatal. The average time between diagnosis and death is nine months. A 1993 study of brain cancer in Missouri children shows an associations between brain cancer and pesticides. The products included flea strips, collars, spray bombs, and the spraying of yards for weeds. This study examined 45 Missouri children with brain cancer plus 2 control groups. Control group 1 was 85 healthy friends of the cancer stricken children and Control group 2 was 108 children with other types of cancers. What distinguished the families with brain cancer was their pesticide use. They used pesticides in their homes more often than did families whose children did not develop brain tumours. The study found 15 statistically significant associations between pesticide use and childhood brain cancer. METABOLIC DISORDERS Pesticides can be eaten on food or absorbed through the skin. Some interfere with the body's ability to use vitamin B-6. Vitamin B-6 deficiency interferes with essential fatty acid metabolism. It also has neurological effects ranging from epileptic seizures to a feeling of pins and needles in the extremities. MENTAL DISORDERS The American Journal of Psychiatry has reported three clinical studies of patients who suffer from panic attacks as a result of exposure to pesticides. Panic attacks are a medically defined condition involving: confusion, disorientation, cold sweats, palpitations of the heart, difficulty breathing, tremors, fatigue, muscular cramps, and chest tightness. The panic attacks became debilitating. These attacks were brought on by the organic solvents in pesticides and were not dose related. These are examples of ecological illness, like an allergic reaction, to the presence of exotic synthetic chemicals in the environment. If exposure to synthetic chemicals increases, more such medical problems must be anticipated. CHEMICAL SENSITIVITY 15% of North Americans experience some form of increased allergic sensitivity to chemicals or the environment. This phenomena is increasing in occurrence and severity. Chemically sensitive individuals are victims of the modern Industrial environment. The best treatment is avoiding the use of unnatural chemical agents in and around your home. Fortunately allergic reactions to dandelion pollen are extremely rare. The size of the dandelion pollen makes it unlikely to be a source of allergic reaction. IMMUNE SYSTEM DISORDERS There is a large and convincing body of evidence showing that pesticides harm the immune system. Pesticide exposure is linked to a variety of immune system disorders including suppressed T cell activity, T cells are a particular kind of cell that circulates in the blood and fights off bacteria,viruses, and cancer cells. The incidence of immune system disorders is increasing in the general public. It is noteworthy that the same rare cancers affect three divergent groups; Farmers who have been exposed to pesticides, patients with AIDS, and people who have had organ transplants who are then given drugs to suppress their immune system. Sources: Devra Lee Davis and Joel Schwartz, "Trends in Cancer Mortality: U.S. White Males and Females, 1968-1973." The Lancet Vol 1 march 19 1988 pages 633-636. Devra Lee Davis and Others "Is Brain Cancer Mortality Increasing in Industrial countries?" American Journal of Industrial Medicine Volume 19 1991 pages 421-431 Tim Beardsley "Childhood Leukaemia" July 1987 Journal of the National Cancer Institute Pages 39-46. J.M. Peters; Brain tumours in children.... Science Vol 213 (1981) Pg. 235 237 James R. Davis and others " Family Pesticide use in the home, Garden,Orchard and Yard" Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology. Volume 22 1992 pages 260 to 266 Leo Galland M.D. Diane Dincin Buchman P.H.D. "Super immunity for Kidsthe scientific guide to nutrition for children" page 13 D. Toth "Actual New Cancer-Causing Hydrazines, Hydrazides, and Hydrazones" Cancer Research and Clinical Oncology 97 (1980):97-108 D Toth and J Erickson, "Reversal of the Toxicity of Hydrazine Analogues by Pyridoxine Hydrochloride," Toxicology 7 ( 1977):31-36 Stephen R Dager and others, "Panic disorders Precipitated...." American Journal of Psychiatry, Vol 144 August 1987 Pages 1056-1058 Reprints available from Dr Dager ZA-99 Harborview Medical Center 325 9th Avenue, Seattle WA 98104 National Center for Environmental Health "Chemical Sensitivity" 1100 Rural Avenue, Voorhees, N.J. 08043; 1-609-429-5358 Ashford and Miller, "Chemical exposure: Low Levels and High Stakes" NY Van Nostrand Reinhold 1990 P.T. Thomas and others, "Immunological Effects of Pesticides" in Scott R Baker and Chris Wilkinson, editors "The Effects of Pesticides on Human Health" Prinecton N.J. Princeton Scientific Publishing, 1990 PESTICIDE USE IS RELATED TO BREAST CANCER Scientists first found DDT in human breast milk in 1951. DDT like many pesticides are more fat soluble than water soluble. Because of this they enter the body and build up in the fatty tissues. In 1975 the Environmental protection Agency tested human milk for pesticides. 100% of the samples contained DDT, 99% contained PCBs and 83% contained dieldrins. All three of these substances are carcinogens in humans. A 1982 study of human milk found that 75% contained the following man made chemicals; methylene chloride, 1,1,1- trichloroethane, carbon tetrachloride, benzaldehyde, and acetone. Is it surprising then that one in nine women now gets breast cancer? Breast cancer appears to be caused by environmental causes more than genetics. Women in Japan have one quarter the incidence of breast cancer until they move to North America, then the levels rise to North American levels. Cancer experts claim that 30% of breast cancers can be attributed to social conditions. Birth order (younger is better), exercise (more is better), animal fats (less is better), green vegetable (more is better). But what of the other 70% of Breast Cancers? Recent conditions in Israel have shown that pesticides may be an important cause of breast cancer. Measurement of three pesticides in human milk in Israel in the 1970's revealed levels of contamination of Lindane, alpha-B.H.C. and DDE in concentrations 1000 times higher than in Canada. (DDE is formed when DDT breaks down and is more dangerous than DDT.) In 1978 public protests brought about a ban of these pesticides. There was a rapid reduction in all these contaminants. By 1980 breast milk contamination had dropped by 90% or more among Israeli women. During this unusual rise and fall of pesticide residue in human milk there was a corresponding rise and fall of breast cancer in young Israeli women. The scientists who studied pesticides and breast cancer in Israel made the important observation that pesticides mimic or interfere with estrogen metabolism. Corroborating this view is a study of American women that shows that women with elevated levels of pesticides have a higher levels of breast cancer than a control group without elevated level of these toxins. Research is showing that many synthetic pesticides, mimic or interfere with estrogen and other sex hormones in wildlife and humans. Sources: Jerome B. Westin and Elihu Richter, " The Israeli Breast Cancer anomaly" as cited in Cancer statistics review 1973-1988 National Institute of Health publications No 91-2789 Journal of the National Cancer Institute. Frank Falck Jr., and others "Pesticides and Polychlorinated Biphenyl Residues in Human Breast Lipids and their Relation to Breast Cancer." Archives of Environmental Health Volume 47 No 2 March 1992 pages 143-146 Edo D Pellizzari and others, "Purgable Organic compounds in Mothers milk", Bulletin of Environmental contamination and Toxicology Vol 28 1982 pages 322-328 E.P. Laug, "Occurrence of DDT in Human Milk" Archives of Industrial Hygiene, Volume 3 1951 pages 245-246 PETS ARE AT RISK FROM PESTICIDES According to the Journal of the National Cancer Institute dog owners who spray or dust their lawns with weed killers containing 2,4-D are getting cancer at twice the rate of other dogs. Dogs walk across or roll in herbicide treated lawns and then ingest toxic chemicals when they lick their coats and paws. Naturally, children who play on treated lawns will also come in contact with the chemicals. Dogs and children will also track chemicals indoors where prolonged exposure will occur. People spread 2,4-D around homes and gardens to kill broad leaf weeds, crabgrass, and dandelions. Farmers use it on tomatoes to cause all fruit to ripen at the same time for machine harvesting, and utility companies use it to clear brush around roads and under hydro lines. It is used heavily on lawns, corn, and rice to kill weeds. From 1962 to 1971 it was spread as Agent Orange by U.S. Airmen. Thousands have filed lawsuits against the U.S. government and companies that supplied Agent Orange because of cancers and birth defects in their children. Vets who handled Agent Orange are 70% more likely to father children with birth defects than vets who did not handle Agent Orange. Farmers who use this dangerous substance are getting the same type of cancer ( Non Hodgkin's Lymphomas ) as dogs who roll around on herbicide treated lawns. The occurrence of such cancers has been slowly rising for several decades tracking the emergence of the modern lifestyle in which the dandelion free lawn has come to symbolize the good life. Sources: Howard M. Haynes and others " Case control Study of Canine Malignant Lymphoma: Positive Association with Dog Owners use of 2,4-D"Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 83 September 4 1991 Pages 1226-1231 Sheila K. and others " Agriculture Herbicide use and Risk of Lymphoma and Soft Tissue Sarcoma," Journal of the American Medical Association. Vol 256 Sept 5 1986 Pages 1141 - 1147 Ann Aschengrau and others " Paternal Military service in Vietnam and the risk of Late Adverse Pregnancy Outcomes" American Journal of Public Health Vol 80 October 1990 Pages 1218-1224 A. Blair "Herbicides and non-Hodgkin's lymphoma: New evidence from a study of Saskatchewan farmers" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 1990 pages 544-545 Lennart Hardell and Mikael Eriksson "The association between soft tissue Sarcomas and Exposure to Phenoxyacetic acids" Cancer Volume 62 August 1 1988 pages 652-656 Kenneth Cantor and others "Distribution of Non-Hodgkin's Lymphomas in the Untied States Between 1950 and 1975," Cancer Research Volume 40 August 1980 pages 2645-2652. PESTICIDE USE IS GROWING Between 1950 and 1980 there has been a twelve fold increase in the use of pesticides. On corn the increase in the use of insecticides has been a thousand fold. Today the fastest growing area of pesticide use is lawn care. North Americans spend almost 800 million dollars spreading 75,000,000 pounds of pesticide on their lawns every year. The industry is growing at 9% a year, doubling in size every 8 years. The growth of pesticide use has not reduced crop losses. Between 1950 and 1980 with a twelve fold increase in pesticide use crop losses to insects have increased from 7% to 13%. Clearly insecticides are not effective. Scientific evidence only indicates that wide spread use of any insecticide leads to an eventual increase in the population of the target population. This is probably due to the fact that pesticides kill the predators and after an initial population decrease, the target population become immune. Despite proof that in the long term pesticides do not work more than one billion pounds of pesticides, 660 million pounds of herbicides, 132 million pounds of fungicides, 268 million pounds of insecticides, and 70 million pounds of related chemicals are used each year in North America alone. There are roughly four pounds of pesticides spread for each man women and child in North America each year. The effect these chemicals have on our population is becoming apparent. We must keep in mind that before 1950 there was no significant use of pesticides. Since that time the increased incidence of cancer has occurred as outlined in the following chart. CANCER TYPE PERCENTAGE CHANGE IN INCIDENCE 1950-1987 Colon +24.9% Larynx +57.3% Testicles +97.3% Bladder +52.5% Childhood (all types) +28.4% Leukaemia +2.6% Lung +257% Skin +283% Breast +258% Prostate +97% Kidney +101% lymphoma +153% Average +42% Sources: U.S. National Cancer Institute ; Tyler Miller Environmental Science Third Edition Belmont Ca. Wadsworth 1991 Pages 313-317 "Lawn care pesticides. Risks remain uncertain while prohibited safety claims continue". U.S. Accounting office Free Upon request phone orders accepted 1-202-512-6000 Ask for document # RCED-90-134 Devra Lee Davis and others "Agricultural Exposures and Cancer trends in Developed countries," Environmental Health Perspecives Vol 100 1992 pages 39-44 PESTICIDES AND IMMUNITY Between 1950 and 1980 nearly 500 important insect pests have developed genetic resistance to common pesticides. It is estimated that by the year 2000 virtually all major insect pests will show some form of genetic resistance. In addition to insects, genetic resistance has developed in 80 species of weeds treated with weed killers, 70 species of fungus treated with fungicide, and 10 species of rats treated with rat poisons. Genetic resistance cannot be stopped, it is the nature of all species. Unfortunately this is a double edged sword. A fundamental requirement of genetic change is the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the population. A recent study in the British Medical Journal concluded that men in western countries today have sperm counts less than half as high as their grandfathers had at the same age. In addition the increase in cancer of the testicles has increased 4 fold in the last 40 years; and various birth defects to the male reproductive system have increased 4 fold during the same time period. As we pointed out earlier a fundamental requirement of genetic change is the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the population. This process is clearly under way. The only question is what is causing this change? CHEMICALS THAT MIMIC NATURAL ESTROGENS Evidence is mounting that these changes are caused by exposure of males very early in life to chemicals that act like estrogens. Synthetic chemicals that mimic estrogens include contraceptives, D.E.S. which was fed to beef cattle from the 50's to the 70's, and pesticides. We now live in an environment that can be viewed as a virtual sea of estrogens. Chlorinated hydrocarbons, ie pesticides, mimic hormones and interfere with the endocrine system of wildlife and humans. Studies link them to breast cancer in women and testicular cancer in their sons. Thus breast cancer, testicular cancer, and defects in the male reproductive system including diminished sperm count all seem linked. Diminished sperm count is a serious matter. Many animals produce up to 1,400 times as much sperm as is needed for fertility. In contrast the average human produces only 2 to 4 times as much sperm as is needed to fertilize a human egg. Sources: E Carlsen and others, "Evidence for decreasing quality of semen during past 50 years." British Medical Journal Vol 305 1992 pages 609-613 A.Giwercman and others "The human testis-an organ at risk?" International Journal of Andrology? Vol 15 1992 pages 373-375. R Sharpe and others "Are Estrogens involved in falling sperm counts and disorders of the male reproductive tract" The Lancet Vol 341 May 1993 pages 1392-1395. R.Sharpe "Are oestrogens involved in falling sperm counts..." The Lancet Volume 341 May 29 1993. "Estrogen chemicals lower sperm count" Chemical and Engineering News June 7 1993 pages 28. Plus 12 other research paper on the same topic indicating the same conclusion. PESTICIDES POSE A THREAT TO OUR WATER Since 1980 researchers have found agricultural chemicals in ground water supplies that serve hundreds of millions of people. Recent studies in Eastern Ontario have shown that over 75% of wells are polluted with a herbicide used on corn. Residents in Iowa; 27% of which drink water contaminated with pesticides have a higher than normal risk of developing leukaemia, lymphoma and other cancers. Water quality in our rivers is increasing on a number of fronts, for instance bacterial and lead levels are decreasing because of a ban on leaded gasoline and improved sewage treatment. Unfortunately increased usage of fertilizer on suburban lawns is causing other problems. One study looked at 24 measures of water quality taken at 380 water sampling stations across the country from 1974-1981. Of the 34 chemicals widely used by the lawn care industry 35% were detected in ground water. Of these: 62% are toxic to fish. 35% are toxic to bees. 29% cause cancer. 35% Cause birth defects. 21% interfere with reproduction. 39% cause liver damage. 59% are toxic to the nervous System. 42% cause kidney damage 85% lead to sensitivity in individuals. 32% are toxic to birds. THE LAWN CARE INDUSTRY IS UNREGULATED The business is largely unregulated. Investigations have found that the lawn care industry regularly makes false claims such as: *Our products are non toxic *The only way to get sick from 2,4-D would be to lay in it for a few days *The safety issue is blown out of proportion. Such a small amount of chemicals is not dangerous. *It is safe to use, will not harm bees, birds, or other beneficial insects. *lawn care products are safe for the environment. Of the 34 major lawn care chemicals now in use, not one has been fully tested. Lawn care companies in Ontario are required by law to tell employees what they are spraying. You can ask to see these documents. In all commercial lawn poisons there is an active ingredient and an inert ingredient. The inert ingredients can be a variety of carcinogenic substances. Often these substances are more dangerous than the active ingredient used to kill weeds. Companies that treat hazardous waste are allowed to "recycle" hazardous waste into lawn care products. It is unclear which is more dangerous the active pesticide ingredient or the "recycled" hazardous waste. Source: New York office of the Attorney General. Ask for "The secret Hazards of Pesticides Inert Ingredients" by Susan Jaffe, Free copies of report from the Office of Public Information NY State Department of Law, 120 Broadway N.Y. N.Y. 10271. "Lawn care pesticides. Risks remain uncertain while prohibited safety claims continue". U.S. Accounting office Free Upon request phone orders accepted 1-202-512-6000 Ask for document # RCED-90-134 IS THERE ANY GOOD NEWS? On Aug 19 1993 a superior court judge opened the door for municipalities to outlaw pesticide spraying, ruling that the municipality of Hudson was legal in passing a bylaw to that effect. Lawn care companies argued that pesticide regulations were a matter of provincial jurisdiction and in the absence of a provincial code restricting pesticide use Hudson could not introduce it's own law. In an 11 page decision delivered in Valleyfield Quebec the Judge decided the town council acted in response to a PUBLIC HEALTH MENACE under Quebec's Cities and Towns Act. The mayor of the town was concerned about the towns water supply and he noted the pesticide applicators rarely "went by the book" in applying pesticides. Ontario has a similarly worded act that allows municipalities to rule on matters that are of concern to the health and well being of residents. Force their hand. Source: The Montreal Gazette Friday August 20 1993 Page 1 -- 0 >:< Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, _ /=_ 9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really ......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth. Hah he's probably a vegatarian. From br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Mon May 30 00:27:26 EDT 1994 Article: 33539 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!br105 From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Radon and Vegetable Gardens? Date: 25 May 1994 23:14:34 GMT Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <2s0m4r$6gv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> References: <2s0c9s$1an@paperboy.ids.net> Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) NNTP-Posting-Host: nextsun.ins.cwru.edu Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, brucemcc@ids.net (36637) says: >Does anyone have any information on vegetable gardens on sites where the house >has a high radon level? Any clue to where this info might be would be >appreciated. Why worry? The garden is outdoors, isn't it? Radon is only a problem in enclosed areas. And no, the plants won't concentrate either the source of the radon, the radon or its decay products. J. Del Col -- Jeff Del Col * "Sleeplessness is like metaphysics. A-B College * Be there." Philippi, WV * * ----Charles Simic---- From hlm@phx.mcd.mot.com Mon May 30 00:28:41 EDT 1994 Article: 33759 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!asuvax!pitstop.mcd.mot.com!mcdphx!hlm From: hlm@phx.mcd.mot.com (Heather Magill) Subject: Re: HELP: Organically Adding Nutrients at Run Time Message-ID: <1994May27.153934.16975@phx.mcd.mot.com> Sender: news@phx.mcd.mot.com Nntp-Posting-Host: cretan.phx.mcd.mot.com Organization: Motorola Computer Group, Tempe, Az. References: <1994May26.104142.18919@crash> <2s3peq$vd2@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 15:39:34 GMT Lines: 32 Status: O X-Status: In article <2s3peq$vd2@bigblue.oit.unc.edu>, Larry London wrote: >In article <1994May26.104142.18919@crash>, >Howard Knight wrote: >>I'm fairly new to gardening (learning alot, the hard way). Anyway, >>my vegies are showing signs of what appears to be nitrogen >>deprivation. How can I *organically* add nitrogen or (NPK) so my >>plants will have a fighting chance? > [snip] >Phosphorus: > >colloidal phosphate >rock phosphate >bone meal >- >- I am currently taking the master gardening course from the University of AZ coperative extension. On bone meal for phosphorus, the instructor indicates its not very mobile in AZ soil and your best bet is to put it in a band right below the plant for the root to grow through. As I recall, this is due to the high pH (~8) of our soil. Just a comment. Heather. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Motorola MCG AZ43 MD DW278 (o) 602-438-3343 Realtime Networking 2900 S. Diablo Way (f) 602-438-3836 hlm@phx.mcd.mot.com Tempe, AZ 85282 From pharvey@quack.kfu.com Mon May 30 00:29:37 EDT 1994 Article: 33797 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: HELP: Organically Adding Nutrients at Run Time Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <1994May26.104142.18919@crash> <2s3peq$vd2@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> <1994May27.153934.16975@phx.mcd.mot.com> Date: 28 May 1994 18:18:42 UTC Lines: 18 Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May27.153934.16975@phx.mcd.mot.com>, Heather Magill wrote: >I am currently taking the master gardening course from the >University of AZ coperative extension. On bone meal for >phosphorus, the instructor indicates its not very mobile in >AZ soil and your best bet is to put it in a band right below >the plant for the root to grow through. As I recall, this is >due to the high pH (~8) of our soil. Phosphorus is the one nutrient that is not very mobile (readily leached) in any soil, thus it is best to incorporate it into the soil, whereas other nutrients are best scratched into the surface because they will readily leach downwards (sometimes leach too readily and into the nearest body of water, i.e. nitrates in ground water). Likewise, for potting soils, phosphorus should be mixed into the soil uniformly prior to use. (~1 tablespoon rock-phosphate/bone-meal per gallon of soil mix). From kfoster@rainbow.sosi.com Mon May 30 23:54:02 EDT 1994 Article: 33811 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!rainbow.sosi.com!rainbow.sosi.com!not-for-mail From: kfoster@rainbow.sosi.com (Kurt Foster) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Deer Deterrents Date: 28 May 1994 21:35:00 -0700 Organization: Spectrum Online Systems Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <2s961k$43b@rainbow.sosi.com> References: <2s7tec$g5l@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rainbow.sosi.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: DavidKirj (davidkirj@aol.com) wrote: : Does anybody know foolproof methods to prevent deer from munching on : plants in the garden? One way is to make "cages" consisting of posts and a "lid", each covered with chickenwire. They're fairly common around here. Another is to have only plants the deer don't like (which excludes most anything remotely edible), or to have plants securely nestled in such plants. I've observed tulips protected by Southernwood (an Artemesia), and deer LOVE to eat tulip buds. I've heard that deer don't like to stand on stuff like chickenwire that feels strange underfoot. I've heard that mountain (or other) lion excrement scares 'em off too. The mule deer around here are so stupid I've seen one eat a rhubarb leaf (only once!), and heard about some eating PLASTIC plants. I wish the big dummies would learn to eat DANDELIONS! From starkmad@aol.com Mon May 30 23:55:05 EDT 1994 Article: 33813 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: starkmad@aol.com (Stark Mad) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Deer Deterrents Date: 29 May 1994 01:55:05 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 28 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2s9anp$p3t@search01.news.aol.com> References: <2s7tec$g5l@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: In article <2s7tec$g5l@search01.news.aol.com>, davidkirj@aol.com (DavidKirj) writes: >>Does anybody know foolproof methods to prevent deer from >>munching on plants in the garden? The following plants will reportedly deter deer--once they get a taste of these greens, they'll supposedly stay away: -Scented Geraniums -Lavender -Any variety of mint -Rabbit ears -Most varieties of ferns -Rosemary -Sage I've also heard that spreading wads of human hair around the parameters of the garden will work, but I haven't tried it yet. I've planted a bunch of catmint, and as of yet I haven't had any deer problems (deer are plenitful 'round these parts). Prolly not foolproof, but good luck, anyhoo. :) -MarkWK ..::the sparrows are flying again::.. From p00511@psilink.com Mon May 30 23:56:35 EDT 1994 Article: 33821 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!psinntp!wlnntp.psi.com!usenet From: "Jim Chinnis" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Deer Deterrents Date: Sun, 29 May 94 11:34:00 -0400 Organization: Decision Science Associates, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2979311019.0.p00511@psilink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: worldlink.com X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.6.2) Status: O X-Status: David Kirj wrote: >Does anybody know foolproof methods to prevent deer from munching on >plants in the garden? I have used a simple, inexpensive electric fence. It works fine. I have just 3 strands of wire around the garden, about 2", 18", and 42" above the ground. We have deer everywhere here (in a National Park). I think the deer won't jump the fence without checking it out first. I have raised beds and sawdust covered paths, so the garden interior looks different from the surrounding lawn. Maybe that helps too. Anyway, its been 3 years now and no problem. (Everything else in our yard is eaten to the ground by the deer, rabbits, ground hogs, raccoons, etc.) A small, solar powered "fencer" should cost about $100. You can just string aluminum wire along some fiberglas posts. \Jim Chinnis From nedehn@artsci.wustl.edu Sun Jun 5 04:37:33 EDT 1994 Article: 33840 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!bigfoot.wustl.edu!mulberry!nedehn From: nedehn@artsci.wustl.edu (Natasha Elizabeth Dehn) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re.Poison Ivy Date: 22 May 1994 15:58:08 GMT Organization: College of Arts and Sciences -- Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri, USA Lines: 22 Message-ID: <2rnveg$i12@bigfoot.wustl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mulberry.wustl.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: Regarding reactions and treatment: Not everyone is lucky enough to get off with a rash. A serious exposure or strong sensitivity will produce flu-like symptoms--fever, achyness, etc.. It's possible to be sick as a dog for more than a month--believe me, I know!! I also developed additional spontaneous rashes on unexposed portions of my body, weeks after the initial outbreak--my immune system had developed a hair-trigger sensitivity. I was told some of this might have been prevented had they started oral steroids immediately (another thing to note--not every site of exposure will show up at once--and I'm not talking about secondary exposure from touching oneself, though I got that too--all over my neck and face! But it was more than a week before all the streaks of blisters appeared on my legs, which had clearly brushed up against the plant). In my case the situation is now clear. But for all of you as-yet-unexposed people out there--should you ever be so unlucky as to meet the dreaded plant, be aware that stronger reactions are possible and stronger treatment is available. Don't be shy about going to see your doctor--just 'cause the books don't usually mention it doesn't mean you're imagining your illness :) --Natasha From scd@atria.com Sun Jun 5 04:40:27 EDT 1994 Article: 33932 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!yale.edu!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: poison ivy (help! help!) Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2s8uqa$1q2@jfwhome.funhouse.com> Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 12:18:31 GMT Lines: 37 Status: O X-Status: Babs Woods (babs@jfwhome.funhouse.com) wrote: : We have discovered, to our deep, itchy, dismay that we have : poison ivy on our yard. So far we seem to have seen it before anyone : has been exposed. Both of us react *badly* to it and we have a small : child who hasn't been exposed yet. In the event that the RoundUp and : another more broad herbicide we've used in different spots doesn't kill : it DEADEADEAD, what should we then try? I'm not sure I'd like the : blowtorch approach because of the smoke, some of the ivy is in : with other weeds and the whole area could also catch fire. : Should we lay in a good supply of disposable HazMat Suits and : just keep fighting?? I am currently working on killing my bumper crop of PI. I am using Orthro Brush-be-gone. The first application has had dramatic effects! I'm expecting to give one more application (I mix the product in a 6oz/24oz ratio in a small spray bottle and then spray it on the leaves). You can remove the vines by hand and then use the chemicals on the "stump" of the vine, but this means rubber gloves et. al. and disposal of the unwanted vines. Now, whatever you do, DO NOT burn PI (or anything similar). Contrary to other posts, you do not need to be sensitive to PI to have a severe reaction to the smoke. Inhaled allergens are usually nothing to worry about and usually do not cause a reaction, however PI smoke is no longer an allergen by normal definitions. It is VERY easy to develop analphalyxis when you breath this in. Death can ensue in 10 to 30 minutes if you breath enough of it and you are very young/old or have a medical history of asthma or allergies. Also, breathing this in will almost certainly cause you to develop a hypersensitivity to PI and other similar plants that will stay with you the rest of your life. Regards, Steve -- From daniel.mascheck@yob.com Sun Jun 5 04:41:39 EDT 1994 Article: 33870 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!news.uh.edu!nuchat!yob!daniel.mascheck From: daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: 29 May 94 19:15:00 GMT Distribution: world Organization: Ye Olde Bailey BBS - Houston, TX - 713-520-1569 Reply-To: daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) References: Lines: 33 Status: O X-Status: KT.An addicted lawn is a lawn without a healty biologically .active soil. Pesticides like 2,4-D and MCPA destroy the life giving .property of soils making harmful fertilizers like urea necessary. .a viscous and very profitable circle. Your lawn has become addicted .to drugs. I checked some of the facts and so called statistics you place on the net, and.....many are grossly flawed or taken out of context. I think you need to look up some of the Data From Dr. Ames from Berkley. Look up the trend of chemical useage vs % increase in cancer! You'll find that all have remained the same taking into effect the increase in population, except one (lung cancer) which has steadily climbed with smoking. Chemical useage has tripled and cancer is flat. Your stats Stink! Many products such as celery, peanuts have naturally occuring carcinagens. Not from being sprayed!!! Many plants have toxins stronger than man can invent!! Many we copy! . If we use your logic, we can ban almost every modern device from cars(kill plenty of folks) to my 486, I'm not planning on giving up!! . Dan --- . 1st 1.01 #14 . You've got to have an ace in the hole. ---- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Ye Olde Bailey BBS Zyxel 713-520-1569(V.32bis) Hayes 713-520-9566 (V.FC)| | Houston,Texas yob.com Home of alt.cosuard | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ehynes@monkfish.nosc.mil Sun Jun 5 04:42:19 EDT 1994 Article: 34057 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!newshub.nosc.mil!news!monkfish!ehynes From: ehynes@monkfish.nosc.mil (Ed Hynes) Subject: Re: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: <1994Jun1.003748.16627@nosc.mil> Sender: news@nosc.mil Organization: NCCOSC RDT&E Division, San Diego, CA X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:37:48 GMT Lines: 17 Status: O X-Status: : I checked some of the facts and so called statistics you place on the : net, and.....many are grossly flawed or taken out of context. : I think you need to look up some of the Data From Dr. Ames from : Berkley. Look up the trend of chemical useage vs % increase in cancer! : You'll find that all have remained the same taking into effect the : increase in population, except one (lung cancer) which has steadily : climbed with smoking. Chemical useage has tripled and cancer is : flat. Your stats Stink! Sorry, but the rate of breast cancer in North America has definitely gone up in this century. Also, with all of the negative publicity smoking has recieved since the early sixties, it would be very surprising if the rate of smoking hasn't flattened out or even declined since then. If the rate of smoking has declined, but the rate of lung cancer has continued to rise, then another explanation besides cigarette smoking alone will have to be found. Perhaps you should consult more than one source. From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Jun 5 04:46:01 EDT 1994 Article: 34095 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367 From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Subject: Re: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 14:21:54 GMT Lines: 70 Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) says: >KT.An addicted lawn is a lawn without a healty biologically >.active soil. Pesticides like 2,4-D and MCPA destroy the life giving >.property of soils making harmful fertilizers like urea necessary. >.a viscous and very profitable circle. Your lawn has become addicted >.to drugs. > >I checked some of the facts and so called statistics you place on the >net, and.....many are grossly flawed or taken out of context. >I think you need to look up some of the Data From Dr. Ames from >Berkley. Look up the trend of chemical useage vs % increase in cancer! >You'll find that all have remained the same taking into effect the >increase in population, except one (lung cancer) which has steadily >climbed with smoking. Chemical useage has tripled and cancer is >flat. Your stats Stink! Doctor Ames of Berkley, come on, I quote only studies published in peer reviewed scientific journal and medical journals. I would like to quote from a more popular journal for your benefiet. Reference the January 1994 Scientific America. Tim Beadsley " A War not won-trends in Cancer Epidemiology" Pages 130 to 138. " The U.S. is losing its war on cancer...the age adjusted cancer death rate continues to rise slowly year after year, despite $25 billion spent to find a cure" I would appreciate any published references that contradict that statement. And please save the rantings of Doctor Ames unless his paper has been published in a peer reviewed journal. > >Many products such as celery, peanuts have naturally occuring >carcinagens. Not from being sprayed!!! Many plants have toxins stronger >than man can invent!! Many we copy! . Arguing by analogy is clever but rarely leads to an understanding of the nature of the problem. Low levels of naturally occuring carcinogens in damaged produce does not justify the widespread use of toxins that are not naturally occuring, that frequently break down into toxins more damaging than the origional pesticide and which the consumer does not know the contents of. I would highly reccomend that every gardener contact the New York State Department of Law and ask for the "THE SECRET HAZARDS OF PESTICIDES: INERT INGREDIENTS." Attorney General G Oliver Koppell is not a granola chewing hippies, as some would to characterize people who are concerned about hazardous chemical use. The Book is free. I live in Canada and they mailed it acrosss the border no charge. God Bless America. > >If we use your logic, we can ban almost every modern device from >cars(kill plenty of folks) to my 486, I'm not planning on giving up!! >. If you want to argue the relative merits of cars and 486s I suggest you log on to talk. environment or rec.auto. All my Love Ken... -- 0 >:< Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, _ /=_ 9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really ......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth. Hah he's probably a vegatarian. From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Jun 5 04:56:04 EDT 1994 Article: 34133 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367 From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Subject: Re: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 18:30:32 GMT Lines: 69 Status: O X-Status: > >In a previous article, daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) says: > >> >>I checked some of the facts and so called statistics you place on the >>net, and.....many are grossly flawed or taken out of context. >>I think you need to look up some of the Data From Dr. Ames from >>Berkley. Look up the trend of chemical useage vs % increase in cancer! >>You'll find that all have remained the same taking into effect the >>increase in population, except one (lung cancer) which has steadily >>climbed with smoking. Chemical useage has tripled and cancer is >>flat. Your stats Stink! > Dr Bruce Ames most famous publicaton that popularized the notion that cancer rates are not increasing and what cancer we did get was caused by peanut butter was first published as "Ranking Possible Carcinogenic Hazards" in Science Vol 236 April 17 1987. The great thing about peer review is that other intelligent people look at your work and respond. This happend to Dr Ames, He and his theory that Peanut butter and brocolli were causing the epidemic of cancer were refuted by at least 15 serious papers. His theories are not regarded as credible If you are going to quote Dr Ames research you had better read what other scientist think of his resarch otherwise you will sound silly. Consider reading Samuel Epstein, and others, Carcinogenic Risk Estimation. Science Vol 240 May 1988 Pages 1043-1045 Devra Lee Davis "Paleolithic Diet, Evolution and Carcinogens Science December 18 1987 Fredrica Perera and Paolo Boffetta "Perspectives on Comparing Risks of Environmental Carcinogens" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 80 No 16 pages 1282-1293 If after reading all that you dont see a conection between Chemicals produced by man, chemicals that never existed on this planet before we started playing chemistry and cancer read: Mortality and Toxics along the Mississippi River by Ben Goldman. The farther down the mississippi the higher the incidence of pollution and the incidence of cancers. FACTS FOR GARDENERS 1: PESTICIDES CAUSE CANCER 2: PESTICIDE EXPOSURE IS CUMULATIVE 3: PESTICIDES ARE NOT NEEDED. Anyone who would like to have copies of studies that support these contentions please email me I would be happy to respond All my love Ken -- 0 >:< Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, _ /=_ 9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really ......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth. Hah he's probably a vegatarian. From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Jun 5 04:56:44 EDT 1994 Article: 34133 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367 From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Subject: Re: Pesticide FAQ Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 18:30:32 GMT Lines: 69 Status: O X-Status: > >In a previous article, daniel.mascheck@yob.com (Daniel Mascheck) says: > >> >>I checked some of the facts and so called statistics you place on the >>net, and.....many are grossly flawed or taken out of context. >>I think you need to look up some of the Data From Dr. Ames from >>Berkley. Look up the trend of chemical useage vs % increase in cancer! >>You'll find that all have remained the same taking into effect the >>increase in population, except one (lung cancer) which has steadily >>climbed with smoking. Chemical useage has tripled and cancer is >>flat. Your stats Stink! > Dr Bruce Ames most famous publicaton that popularized the notion that cancer rates are not increasing and what cancer we did get was caused by peanut butter was first published as "Ranking Possible Carcinogenic Hazards" in Science Vol 236 April 17 1987. The great thing about peer review is that other intelligent people look at your work and respond. This happend to Dr Ames, He and his theory that Peanut butter and brocolli were causing the epidemic of cancer were refuted by at least 15 serious papers. His theories are not regarded as credible If you are going to quote Dr Ames research you had better read what other scientist think of his resarch otherwise you will sound silly. Consider reading Samuel Epstein, and others, Carcinogenic Risk Estimation. Science Vol 240 May 1988 Pages 1043-1045 Devra Lee Davis "Paleolithic Diet, Evolution and Carcinogens Science December 18 1987 Fredrica Perera and Paolo Boffetta "Perspectives on Comparing Risks of Environmental Carcinogens" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 80 No 16 pages 1282-1293 If after reading all that you dont see a conection between Chemicals produced by man, chemicals that never existed on this planet before we started playing chemistry and cancer read: Mortality and Toxics along the Mississippi River by Ben Goldman. The farther down the mississippi the higher the incidence of pollution and the incidence of cancers. FACTS FOR GARDENERS 1: PESTICIDES CAUSE CANCER 2: PESTICIDE EXPOSURE IS CUMULATIVE 3: PESTICIDES ARE NOT NEEDED. Anyone who would like to have copies of studies that support these contentions please email me I would be happy to respond All my love Ken -- 0 >:< Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, _ /=_ 9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really ......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth. Hah he's probably a vegatarian. From jfsanders@delphi.com Sun Jun 5 04:57:11 EDT 1994 Article: 34163 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: Jack Sanders Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Pesticide FAQ Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 18:48:34 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <3204.320.uupcb@yob.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1c.delphi.com X-To: Ken Toews Status: O X-Status: Ken Toews writes: >Anyone who would like to have copies of studies that support these >contentions please email me I would be happy to respond >All my love Ken > Good for you, Ken. From a homeowner's point of view, I have never understood the crazed desire of some people to totally control their lawns by dousing them with herbicides in particular, as well as pesticides. There's nothing wrong with some dandelions and knotweeds and chickweeds wandering among the grass; they even add some color and variety. But there's a lot to worry about, pouring potent chemicals across a lawn that families and their pets play on. Why do we always have to control nature, right down to the last blade of grass? From p01353@psilink.com Sun Jun 5 04:59:04 EDT 1994 Article: 33849 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!uknet!EU.net!uunet!psinntp!wlnntp.psi.com!usenet From: "Mary Ellen Curtin" Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Deer-defeating plants Date: Mon, 30 May 94 00:04:43 -0500 Organization: PSI Public Usenet Link Lines: 88 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2979355771.4.p01353@psilink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: worldlink.com X-Mailer: PSILink-DOS (3.6.2) Status: O X-Status: There have been a number of questions from time to time about plants that deer _don't_ like to eat; as in, are there any? I picked up the following list at a local wildflower preserve, it being a reprint from a New Jersey magazine. The emphasis is thus on plants suitable for the mid-atlantic states, but these genera are likely to be good places to start for much of the rest of the country, too. As usual, this list comes without any kind of warranty: if deer (or other critters) get hungry enough, they will eat ANYTHING. Last year some mammal (possibly a deer) ate the entire flower spike off one of my digitalis plants, which should be not merely distasteful but poisonous. But who knows, maybe the creature was suffering from a heart condition. So here's the list, titled: "Best Choices for Gardening with Deer." I have marked shade-tolerant species with *. Perennials: Achillea (yarrow) Aconitum (monkshood)* Allium (garlic, chives, etc.) Anaphalis (pearly everlasting) Anchusa (bugloss) Anemome -- Japanese and grape-leafed only* Aquilegia canadensis (native columbine)* Artemisia Aruncus (goatsbeard)* Asclepias (butterfly weed -- _not_ butterfly bush) Astilbe* Borage Caltha (marsh marigold)* Centaurea montana (mountain bluet) Clematis Convallaria (lily-of-the-valley)* Convolvulus (morning glory?) Delphinium Dicentra (bleeding heart)* Digitalis (foxglove) [self-seeding biennial]* Echinacea (purple coneflower) Erigeron (fleabane) Euphorbia (spurge) Geranium (cranesbill -- _not_ common geranium) Gysophila (baby's breath) Helianthus (sunflower) herbs, various Lavandula (true lavender) Lunaria (money plant/honesty)[self-seeding biennial] Lychnis (maltese cross) Mertensia (virgina bluebells)* Monarda (bee balm) Myosotis (forget-me-not) [self-seeding biennial]* Physostegia (obedient plant) Papaver (oriental poppy) Pulmonaria (lungwort) Ranunculus (buttercup) Rudbeckia gloriosa (coneflower; aka R. hirta -- _not_ Goldstrum) Salvia (sage) Stachys (lamb's ear) Stokesia (stoke's aster) Thalictrum (meadow rue) Tradescantia (spiderwort)* Trillium* Trollius (globeflower) Vinca major (periwinkle)* Annuals: Ageratum Calendula (pot marigold) Centaurea rutifola (dusty miller) Cosmos Helichrysum (strawflower) herbs, various Lantana (trailing lantana) Salvia (sage) Bulbs: Canna lily Gladiola Hyacinth Narcissus (daffodils and jonquils) Good gardening. Mary Ellen internet: postal: 9 Titus Mill Rd., Pennington, NJ 08534, USA From saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Sun Jun 5 05:00:08 EDT 1994 Article: 34025 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!inxs.concert.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Plants for Cemetary plantings (to grow without care) Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:31:37 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 58 Message-ID: <2sgbp7$id8@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <94147.152148ALICIAM@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 15:21:48 EDT > From: > Subject: Plants Good for Cemetary plantings > What with Memorial Day and all, I just wondered what the > r.g. wisdom is on the best plants for use at cemetaries? > Our family plot is located in a very old cemetary with no > rules---anything goes. This week I planted some geraniums > and portulacas (a sentimental favorite) in this very > sandy, poor Maine soil. (I added in some potting soil > to help the plants survive; though I believe the portulacas > really could have managed without it). > > Has anyone got any suggestions for perennials (including > ground cover) that might be good for this type of > soil, or any other suggestions? Alicia - Not being from the North-East, and only barely understanding growing conditions there, I cannot really be expert in suggestions. But in any locale, the best way to figure out what will grow without care is to look around at what does! Check out any vacant lots, abandoned gardens or homesteads, waste fringes or roadways, etc. What's flowering there? What garden escapees are just as happy without human intervention as with? Certainly I'd inmagine many bulbs such as tulips and daffodils would thrive in this situation in Maine as they would here in Calif. Also looks for cute weeds or wildflowers that you'd enjoy seeing around your dearly departed's final resting place. There are a surprizing number of plants that can fend for themselves without being weedy. Just this weekend, my wife and I were impressed to find a colony of Cymbalaria muralis, Kenilworth Ivy, escaped from cutivation and growing in an area of Oakland's Morcom Rose garden that has been closed due to construction. On stairs that are seldomed traveled at this time, this plant had taken hold and was growing in abundance, far from any irrigation (it is generally very dry here), but with it's 'toes' in the cool of the concrete stairs. Around the corner from this, in hot dry sun, we found what I believe now to be a Kickxia sp., or Fluellin, and introduced European weed only occasionally found here in the Bay Area. We felt ourselves fortunate indeed to see the sage green mats of soft hairy leaves, speckled here and there with tiny dark violet and pale yellow 'snapdragon' flowers (not unlike the Kenilworth Ivy, to which it is very closely related). My wife insisted that I go back and dig a few seedlings to add to our own garden, or at least the area of the Rose garden adjacent to our own yard! (Imagine - actually trying to grow a weed!) We look around our area for 'climate approriate' plants all the time (i.e. groiwing without supplimental irrigation or for that matter human kindness) as ours can be a somewhat harsh environment for plants. But we are not dissappointed in our search as many plants find a happy home here (some in fact become too happy and disrupt our native populations of plants! It's a thin line, but with care, we can tread it gracefully). Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From karpen@nrlfs1.nrl.navy.mil Sun Jun 5 05:01:23 EDT 1994 Article: 33970 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra!shiva4175.nrl.navy.mil!user From: karpen@nrlfs1.nrl.navy.mil (Judy Karpen) Subject: Re: URGENT: Organically Reducing pH at Run Time Message-ID: Followup-To: rec.gardens Sender: usenet@ra.nrl.navy.mil Organization: Naval Research Lab References: <1994May27.102204.248@crash> Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 01:45:20 GMT Lines: 24 Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May27.102204.248@crash>, howard@crash.cts.com (Howard Knight) wrote: > After testing NPK and pH with a soil testing kit, I have determined > that my garden problems are due to high pH (7 to 8, ouch). Any > suggestions on how to organically add acid to my soil to give my > vegies a fighting chance? > If you add a nitrogen source (as in your original question), the soil will be acidified as well. One organic (but non-vegetarian) source not mentioned in earlier posts is fish emulsion, which you can spray on the plants and/or drench the soil. It also has P & K in it, but is higher N than e.g. seaweed extract. Mixing in coffee grounds or acidic compost (peat humus?) should also lower the pH. In future, you might consider growing a leguminous cover crop over the winter, which will also add to the N content of the soil (assuming you have a persistent problem with high pH). Good luck! -- Judy Karpen "I'm a scientist...I dont think, I observe! " karpen@nrlfs1.nrl.navy.mil (Dr. C. Forrester, MST3K, "Hercules vs the Moon Men" ) From scd@atria.com Sun Jun 5 05:04:08 EDT 1994 Article: 33954 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Bites/Stings/Allergic reactions... Message-ID: Summary: Information post about allergic reactions, bites and stings Keywords: allergic reactions, bites, stings Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 14:15:46 GMT Lines: 870 Status: O X-Status: This post is long (about 900 lines)! There is an intro and two section beyond dealing with specific bites/stings and what to do about them. I decided to post this information after seeing posts about treatments that were not entirely accurate, or after reading discussions about bee stings where people were recommending taking lots of over-the-counter meds (a few months ago), and in response to Mr. London's request. > From: london@sunSITE.unc.edu (Larry London) > Newsgroups: rec.gardens > Subject: Re: Black Widows... > Date: 21 May 1994 02:31:37 GMT > Message-ID: <2rjrq9$p2f@bigblue.oit.unc.edu> > References: <1994May20.162706.19112@den.mmc.com> > Summary: need faq info on other poisonous animals for rec.gardens archives [... Mr. London's info on FAQs he maintains and various bites.stings ...] OK. Let me start by saying a few words. This post is informational only. I am not a physician. I have lots of experience at the various levels of EMT (Emergency Medical Technician). I have tought in the past (both medical and rescue), have "worked" on a pharmacology text (soon to be published), and have been a volunteer on various rescue squads since 1979 (I have been a rescue squad commander and have held the rank of Lieutennant in charge of training). Currently, I am not active in EMS, (as a result of moving into an area that doesn't have many volunteer organizations), but I still hold many of my certifications and licenses and am nationally registered with the Dept. of Transportation (the governing body of EMS in the US). My current licenses are valid in those states that recognize the National Registry of Emergency Medical Technicians. OK - enough of the Resume! ;-) My information comes from a variety of texts, many dealing specifically with prehospital care, and my experiences. I do not claim that this information is accurate for all jurisdictions in this country. In fact, some of what I present is illegal in certain areas (even for EMT-Paramedics). Again, its for those who are curious... After some soal-searching, I decided to include descriptions of some of the advanced treatments often used for various conditions. These descriptions are clearly marked. I was hesitant to include these descriptions because they are advanced, meaning you can do more harm than good if you do it wrong, but in the end I thought it would be OK as most people wouldn't be able to do them for lack of equipment or people would try based on some "treatments" that are based on "hollywood" and are only partially correct and if performed as shown on TV are, by definition, wrong. Advanced treatment requires medical training and certification! This includes CPR and other procedures described. As stated above, this info is provided as a matter of information and to give an indication as to how serious certain events are given the treatments used by individuals such as EMTs and others. DO NOT ATTEMPT these treatments!! A word about tourniquets... Tourniquets are used to stop both venus and arterial blood flow to a limb. There is NEVER and reason to use a tourniquest for bites or stings, unless the limb is bleeding severely and it can't be stopped (e.g, the person will die from blood loss). Constricting band are used to stop venus blood flow only. When properly used, there will still be a pulse in the wrist or foot, for example. The use of the constriction band for bites is very controversial in EMS, some areas still do not allow their use. Don't use anything like these devices unless your on the top of Mt. Everest and an MD tells you to do it! ALWAYS call for help BEFORE doing anything! Oe final note to this intro: NEVER eat or drink anything if there is any question of a serious medical condition, such as an allergic reaction. Never eat "herbal remedies" or take chicken soup! I have had one pateint die on me because she ate a common flowering plant used to make a heart med (she knew quite a bit about medicinal flora). Having "food" in your belly can complicate treatments at the ER, especially if there is any medicinal value to what you have eaten! Having you stomach pumped will delay proper treatment (they will pump it.) In the case of a severe allergic reaction, I am not aware of any "household" remedy that will stop someone from going into anaphylactic shock and passing away. The next two sections... Section 1 provides background on allergic reactions Section 2 deals with basic information and treatment of certain common bites/stings. Section 1 - Alleric Reactions ============================= Concepts and Terminology (boring, but useful) --------------------------------------------- To understand what takes place during an allergic reaction and in anaphylaxis, several concepts and terms need to de defined: The imune response is designed to guard the body against dangerous foreign substances such as infection and antigens. In the normal imune response, the protective cells of the body recognise the dangerous intruders, and destroy them. The allergic reaction or response, on the other hand, is an _oversensitive_ and harmful response against a foreign body. Immunity is the body's natural protective state of being resistant to poisons and foreign substances. An antigen is a foreign substance that induces the formation of antibodies. Antigens are such things as bacteria or viruses. An antibody is a protective protein substance formed in the body as a result of contact with a foreign antigen. When antigens and antibodies interact in the body, an immune response develops. This response can cause allergies and anaphylaxis. An allergy is an abnormal and individual hypersensitivity to substances that are ordinarily harmless. An allergen is an antigen that the body is oversensitive to. Sensitisation is the process of exposure to an allergen and then results in the production of antibodies. An important fact to note is that an allergic reaction cannot occur with the first contact with a potential antigen because antibodies have not yet formed. Anaphylaxis means without protection (literally). It is an acute generalised allergic reaction that occurs within minutes to hours after the body has been exposed to an allergen. Anaphylaxis is a serious medical condition that can lead to death in minutes. Other definitions include: edema - swelling stridor - harsh sounding breathing dyspnea - shortness of breath cyanosis - bluish colour syncope - temporary loss of consciouness tachycardia - very fast heart beat bradycardia - very slow heart beat accessory muscles - muscles used to help breath. located in neck, chest hypotension - low blood pressure hypertension - high blood pressure sign - objective evidence, such as edema symptom - subjective evidence, such as nasuea Sx - signs and symptoms pulmonary edema - fluid/blood build-up in the lungs (pink frothy mucus coughed up while breathing) transport - CALL 911 or equivalent Common Allergens ---------------- Allergen groups include drugs, insect venom, food, and pollen. The causative agent may be injected, ingested, absorbed through the skin or mucus membranes, or inhaled. Inhaled substances rarely cause allergic reactions. Insect stings/bites fall into the injection category. The allergic reaction is different from the toxic effects of the venom. The insect order Hymenopter is the most common allergen. The four prominent members include the bumblebee, honeybee, white- faced hornet, and the yellow jacket. About 8 in 1000 are allergic to stinging insects and half of these are severe. This order has whats called "cross-sensitivity" meaning a bite from one may lead to an allergic reaction to a bite from another. Ants, dear flies, ticks, and mosquitoes can all cause an allergic reaction. Pathophysiology --------------- In a simple anaphylactic reaction, the antigen-antibody interaction causes mild alleric signs and symptoms (Sx) limited to usually one or two body systems and without systemic cardiovascular effects. In an anaphylactic reaction, however, the antigen-antibody reaction is severe. This reaction takes place on the surface of mast cells and basophils (types of white blood cells) and signals the release of several chemicals, primarily histamine. Other chemicals include serotonin, bradykinin, and SRS-A (slow reacting substance of anaphylaxis). These chemicals cause three primary reactions: capillary dialation, increased capillary permeability, and smooth muscle spasm. As these substances travel around the body, the following Sx can be seen: Skin flushing, edema, itching, hives, rash, a feeling of warmth Eyes itching, tearing, edema Nose congestion, itching, sneezing Upper Airway pharyngeal or laryngeal spasm, hoarsness, stridor, bronchospasm, tightness in the neck Lower Airwar Dyspnea, wheezing, use of accessory muscles to breath, cyanosis, pulmonary edema Cardiovascular tachycardia, irregular pulse, weak pulse, hypotension Gastrointestinal nasuea, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal cramps Neurogenic Anxiety, dizziness, syncope, weakness, seizure, headache A person may experience these Sx within seconds after exposure, or the reaction may be delayed for several hours. The initial Sx usually occur in the Skin. The primary rule for determining severity is simple: the sooner the onset of Sx after exposure, the more severe the reaction. Injected antigens can produce Sx immediately, but usually this happens after 5 minutes to as much as thirty minutes later. Injested antigens usually cause a reaction in about 2 hours. The effect on the cardiovascular system progresses as follows: - caplillary beds dialate (located in skin and internal organs) - increase in capillary permeability (fluid leaks out) - blood pools in capillary beds (especially the skin) - decreased amount of blood returns to heart - decreased cardiac output - early stages of hypovolemic shock (low blood volume) The effect on the airway is simply this: the airway constricts (usually from swelling) and spasms resulting in decreased airflow into the lungs and a reduced oxygenation of the blood. Loss of the airway is the primary concern. Commonly used drugs include epinephrin (adrenalin) and diphenhydramine. Others are used in the prehospital setting as well. Epinephrin counteracts the effects of histamine and the other chemicals by vasoconstriction, bronchial dialation, and restoration of the tone and permeability of the blood vessels. Epinephrin's major side effect is the development of cardiac irritability. IV administration of Epinephrin can cause serious arrhythmias. This drug is short acting and may be needed every 15 minutes. Diphenhydramine is an antihistamine that antogonizes the adverse effects of histamine and prevents further release of histamine. This drugs is not used on pregnent patients. The major side efect is a dry mouth and caridac arrhythmias. Section 2 ========= Patient Assessment ------------------ The victim of a bite will usually be agitated. Try to calm them and determine what happened, where, how long ago, and what the culprit might have been (determine if it walked, flew, swam, etc.). Determine if the threat is still nearby and move from the area if this is the case. If the culprit is dead, collect it carefully and put it into a container that can be handled safely. If the victim has no Sx, don't leave them alone - monitor them for at least four hours. (Clearly, I'm not talking about a mosquito bite here.) If itching, a feeling of warmth, tightness in the throat or chest, or a rash appear (usually the first signs) summon help immediately. Knowing when the bite took place will help determine how severe the condition is - remember the sooner Sx folow the bite, the more severe the reaction. If the situation worsens, concern yourself with maintaining an airway. The airway is the primary concern. The simple rule of ABC is used; Airway, Breathing, Circulation. The basic techniques tought for CPR are whats used to establish and maintain an open (patent) airway and to ensure circulation. Establish basic vitals: A pulse in the wrist means a BP sufficient for total body profusion, but it will not tell you if the patient is in shock or not. An very week pluse in the wrist means the person is very likely in shock and is very likely in bad shape! One way to ascertain if the person is on the way to shock is by pinching the bed of a fingernail until it goes white and then releasing. If it takes more than 2 seconds for the normal pink colour to return, this is an ominous sign. (Obviously, nail polish must first be removed.) Determine LOC (level of consciousness). If the person seems "drunk" or "sleepy", you must seek treatment. If the person is abnormally agitated or even verbally abusive, this is a sign of a change in mentation, an early indicator of neurogenic involvement. If you suspect a severe reaction and the airway is failing, judgement is called for. Don't wait for transport unless it is very close at hand. If you live in a rural or lightly suburban area, use the phone to inform the dispatcher what is going on and that you feel as though you should take the victim to the ER and what route will be used. Ask them to intercept you along the way. Follow your instincts, BUT ALWAYS FOLLOW THE DISPATCHER'S INSTRUCTIONS! In any case, you should explain the situation and ask for an "ALS" response, that is, an Advanced Life Support response. The victim of other vectors may exhibit similar Sx. The same basic treatments apply. Specific Treatments ------------------- Snakebite (Pit Vipors) ---------------------- There are posionous snakes in every state except Alaska, Hawaii and Maine. Of the 120 species in the US, about 20 are posionous. Of the bites that do take place, about 55% are from rattlesnakes, 34% from copperheads, 10% from water moccasins, and 1% from coral snakes. Sx generally occur immediately, but only about one-third of all bites manifest Sx. When no Sx present themselves, probably no venom was injected. Nonpoisonous bites are not considered an emergency. Poisonous bites contain some of the most complex toxins known; venoms can affect the central nervous system, brain, heart, kidneys, and blood. Signs that indicate a poisonous bite include: One or two distinct puncture wounds (fang marks). Nonposionous bites usually leave a series of shallow, small puncture wounds. The coral snake is one exception. This snake leavs a semicircular marking from its teeth. A row of punctures does not rule out a posionous bite, but fang marks _always_ confirms a posionous bite. The patient experiences severe burning and pain almost immediately, but always within 4 hours of the bite. The wound begins to swell and discolour usually immediately, but always within 4 hours. Most posionous snakes have the following characteristics: Large fangs Elliptical pupils - nonposionous snakes have round pupils Presence of a pit - a heat sensitive organ - between the eyes A variety of blotches on a brightly coloured skin, including pink, yellow, olive, tan, grey, red, or brown. A triangular head that is larger than the neck. The one exception to all this is the coral snake. It has round pupils, no fangs, and a small head. Because its mouth is so small and teeth are short, most bites are on the finger or toes. Coral snakes are generally small and have rings of red, yellow and black; the red and yellow touch each other. The seriousness of the bite can be determined by assessing several items: 1 - Age, size and health of the victim. Bites are most dangerous in children and the elderly. 2 - Depth, location, and number of bites. A single glancing blow is less dangerous than multiple wounds. Bites on the head or torso are usually fatal, as is a bite that punctures a blood vessle. 3 - Duration of the bite. Was it a quick hit or did the snake hold on. 4 - Clothing. A bite that hits the skin directly is worse than one that went through clothing. 5 - Maturity of the snake. The older, the more dangerous. 6 - Condition of the fangs and venom sacs. (Not recommended for inspection by untrained professional.) 7 - How angry the snake was. The more agitated, the more venom. What to do when you go to help: ------------------------------- BE CAREFUL!!! Snakes will often be found within a twenty foot radius of the area in which the bite occured! The priorities of emergency care for snakebite are to limit the spread of venom and to transport ASAP! If the victim was bit by a pit vipor (rattlesnake, copperhead, or cottonmouth), proceed as follows: Look for Sx... Immediate and severe burning pain, swelling. The entire extremity swells within 8 to 36 hours. (As a rule, no burning/pain, no venom.) Purplish discoloration within 2 to 3 hours. Numbness and possible blistering around the bite within a few hours. Nausea and vomiting. Rapid heartbeat (tachycardia), low blood pressure (hypotension), weakness and syncope (fainting). Numbness and tingling of the tounge and mouth. Excessive sweating (diaphoretic) Fever and chills. Muscular twitching. Convulsions. Dimmed vision. Headache. Priorities for treatment are: 1. Move the person away from the site. If you can do so without endangering yourself, kill the snake and transport it with the victim. 2. Lie the person down and keep them quiet. 3. Keep the extremity below the level of the heart and immobilize it in a position of function. Remove jewelry. 4. Wash the wound area with alcohol, soap and COOL water, hydrogen peroxide. Do not scrub or tear the tissue. Irrigate the area with saline or clean cool water. 5. Transport ASAP! 6. NEVER EVER apply ice to the bite area! Ice can cause tissue damage, gangrene, or rebound vasodialation when the ice is removed! ADVANCED TREATMENT NOTE: The following descrption is provided in order to dispell the "hollywood" treatment of how to deal with a snake bite. 7. Find the fang marks. Wrap _flat_, soft rubber tubing that is at least 3/4" wide around the extremity two to four inches both above and below the fang marks. The tubing should be tight enough to stop blood flow through the veins, but not stop arterial blood flow. You should be able to put two fingers between the skin and constriction band. There should still be a distal pulse. _Never_ place these bands on either side of a joint, or around the neck, head, or torso. Loosen these bands if swelling takes place. --DISCLAIMER-- Many EMS jurisdictions do no allow for this procedure, even by trained personnel. 8. --DISCLAIMER-- Only if you are more than 30 minutes from medical treatment and only if directed to do so by a physician... Incise and suction the fang marks. Only do so if on an extremity and with a sterile instrument. Locate the fang marks. Pinch the skin up between the thumb and forefinger to avoid hitting a vein. Make longitudinal (vertical) cut marks through each fang mark, only deep enough to go just below the skin. Incision should be parallel to each other, 1/8" to 1/4" long and made in the direction of the fang entry. NEVER make an X or cross the cuts! Apply suction to the wound directly over the incisions. You can "milk" the incision with your fingers if necessary. Suction with your mouth only as a last resort and only as directed by a physician! Only use your mouth if you have no wounds in your mouth. NOTE - because venom spreads so rapidly, incising and suctioning is of no value unless it is done withing 5 minutes of the bite. --DISCLAIMER-- Many EMS jurisdictions do no allow for this procedure, even by trained personnel. 9. Use basic life support procedures as appropriate. Treat for shock, Keep the victim warm and lying down, with legs elevated (unless bite is on leg). Be prepared to perform CPR. Apply O2 at 2 to 4 L/min. Snakebite (coral snake) ----------------------- Coral snakes - and other neurotoxic snakes like the cobra, mamba, sea snake, and krait - are the most posionous of all. Instead of having fangs, the coral snake has several pairs of short, groved, fang-like teeth in its upper jaw. It chews its victims instead of striking with a clean blow. The venom is absorbed very quickly and is disseminated throughout the body. There is generally little or no pain involved with the bite. The bite leaves one or more tiny scratch marks in the area of the bite. One to eight hours after the bite, the victim will experience blurred vision, drooping eyelids, slurred speech, increased salivation and sweating, and drowsiness. As time passes, nasuea, vomiting, difficulty of breathing, paralysis, convulsions, shock and coma may ensue. Depending on the size of the victim, total CNS (central nervous system) shutdown can occur in as little as 10 minutes. Treatment is similar to that of the Pit Vipor, with a few important differences: !. Transport the victim immediately. 2. Transport the victim immediately. 3. Transport the victim immediately. 4. Flush the bite area with WARM soapy water. Use several quarts. 5. NEVER incise the bite. NEVER use constricting bands. Black Widow Spider Bite ----------------------- Habitat background: The female black widow spider is characterized by a shiny black body, thin legs, and a crimson red marking on its abdomen, usually in the shape of an hourglass or two red triangles. Do not be confused by appearances, however. Of the five species in the US, only three are black, and not all have the characteristic red marking. The female is one of the largest spiders in the US. Males generally do not bite; females bite only when hungry, agitated, or protecting the egg sack. Contrary to folklore, the black widow spider is not aggressive. In fact, many bites occur when a finger or hand enters the web and is mistaken as prey. Black widow spiders, as is true for most spiders, are usually found in dry, secluded dimly lit areas. The spider is known for its extremely strong, funnel-shaped web. More than 80% of all bite victims are adult men. Venom: Black Widow Spider bites are among the leading cause of death from _spider_ bites in the US. The venom - 14 times more toxic than rattlesnake venom, is a neurotoxin that causes little pronounced local reaction, bites results in pain and spasm in the large muscle groups (which are the abdomen, upper leg, buttocks, etc.) within thirty minutes to three hours. Severe bites will affect the respiratory system and can result in respiratory failure, coma, and death. Those at the highest risk for developing severe bites are children under 16, the elderly over 60, and people with chronic illness and anyone with hypertension. Signs and Symptoms (Sx): The most common sign of a Black Widow Spider bite is high blood pressure. The most common symptoms are flushing, sweating, and grimacing of the face within ten minutes to two hours. Other Sx include: A pinprick sensation at the bite site, becomming a dull ache within 30 to 40 minutes Pain and spasms in the shoulders, back, chest, and abdominal muscles within 30 minutes to 3 hours Rigid, boardlike abdomen Restlessness and anxiety Fever Rash Headache Nausea or vomiting The symptoms generally last from 24 to 48 hours. The headache and general weakness, however, may last for several months. Treatment (Tx): Prehospital care is generally not effective in the long-term treatment of the bite. The goal is general wound care and transport. General treatment consists of: Administer care for shock Apply a cold compress to the bite area - do not use ice! Do not allow scratching of the would and do not clean the wound, simply cover it with a loose dressing. Transport as quickly as possible Black Widow anitvenoms are risky and are reserved for high risk patients. Nevertheless, you should try to find the spider and bring it with you so that positive identification can be made. ID can be made even if the spider is crushed. Brown Recluse Spider (aka fidler) --------------------------------- This spider is generally brown, but can range in color from yellow to chocolat brown. The characteristic marking is a brown violin-shaped marking on the upper back. The bite of this spider is a serious medical condition. The bite in non-healing and necrotic. It requires surgical intervention and skin grafting to repair. Most victims will never know they were bitten until several hours after it takess place. The following Sx will result: The bite becomes a bluish area with a white periphery, gradually becomming surrounded with a red halo (a "bulls-eye" pattern). Within 24 hours, the following will develope: fever joint pain nasuea and vomiting chills Within 7 to 10 days, the bite becomes a large ulcer. Treatment: 1. Administer care for shock 2. Administer O2 and artificial ventillation if needed 3. Transport ASAP 4. Positively identify the culprit, but be careful! 5. Surgical Intervention Required Ticks ----- Ticks often carry Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and prolonged attachment of a female tick can mimic Sx of Polio. 10% of victims die. Sx include nasuea and vomiting, abdominal pain, headache, generalised weakness, flaccid paralysis, and respiratory failure. Treatment: 1. Transport ASAP. If transport is delayed... 2. paint the tick with ether, gasoline, or nail polish, or coat it with petrolium jelly. 3. Wait for the tick to back out on its own. ADVANCED TREATMENT 4. If the tick doesn't back out, carefully scrape the tick away from the skin. 5. If the head of the tick remains in the skin, cover and transport for surgical removal. 6. provide BLS during transport. Other Insects ------------- See the next section on insect stings Insect Stings ------------- The normal reaction to an insect sting is a sharp "stinging" pain (thats how a sting got its name) followed immediately by an itchy, swollen, painful wheal. Swelling may persist for several days, but usually subsides withing 24 hours. Redness, tenderness, and swelling at or around the bite site, even if severe, in the absence of other Sx, is considered to be a local reaction. Local reactions are rearely serious or life-threatening and can be treated successfully with a cold compress. An allergic reaction, however, is a serious matter. Stings may cause death (on the average) within 10 minutes of the sting, but almost always within one hour. As noted earlier, the culprits most responsible are a group of the hymenoptera, the insects with membranous (partially see through) wings. This group consists of the honeybee, the wasp, the hornet, and the yellow jacket. Stings from wasps and bees are more common than all other insect bites combined. When someone falls victim to one of these little culprits, it is important to determine what kind of insect inflicted the sting... Honeybees leave the stinger and sac behind embedded in the skin. Hornets and Wasps do not. Hornets like trees and shrubs. Yellow jackets stay close to the ground and often nest in the ground. Hornets build their nests close to the ground. Wasps love high places, like attics and eaves. Honey bees cluster around flowers and flowering shrubs, including clover. Signs and symptoms of anaphylaxis: Faintness, dizziness, generalised itching, hives flushing, generalised swelling including the eyelids, lips and tongue, upper airway obstruction (sounds like a seal bark), difficulty swallowing, shortness of breath, wheezing or stridor, labored breathing, abdominal cramps, confusion, syncope, convulsions, low blood pressure/shock. Some people will have these symptoms delayed for as much as two weeks! In these cases, the Sx are: rash, fever, joint pain, neurological problems, and secondary infections. What to do: - Lower the affected limb below the heart and in a position of function - Get the person's medical history, including any medications being taken - If there is a history of asthma or heart disease, transport ASAP. - Keep the person warm. Lie them down and elevate the legs and lower the head (DO NOT ELEVATE the leg if it is the site of the bite). - Transport the victim as soon as possible (e.g., call 911) - Make certain the victim is under observation for at least 24 hours. If any Sx appear, transport immediately. - Inhalation products and antihistime products WILL NOT WORK. Nothing should be taken by mouth. ADVANCED TREATMENT - If the stinger is still in the skin, remove the stinger by GENTLY scraping against it with your fingernail, with the edge of a knife, or with a credit card. NEVER use "tweezers." Be careful not to squeeze the stinger, you will inject additional venom into the area. Make certain you also remove the sac as it is capable of secreting venom even without the stinger attached. - Apply a commerical cold pack or ice bags to the site to releive pain and swelling. If using ice, DO NOT PLACE THE ICE ON THE WOUND. Wrap the ice in a moist cloth and place the cloth on the wound. DO NOT allow the ice to remain on the wound for more than 15 minutes. - If the person begins to have difficulty breathing, apply O2 at 2 to 4 L/min. - If respiration are not adequate, give mouth-to-mouth ventillation. - Find the bite site. Wrap _flat_, soft rubber tubing that is at least 3/4" wide around the extremity two to four inches above bite. The tubing should be tight enough to stop blood flow through the veins, but not stop arterial blood flow. You should be able to put two fingers between the skin and constriction band. There should still be a distal pulse. _Never_ place these bands above a joint, or around the neck, head, or torso. Loosen this band if swelling takes place. --DISCLAIMER-- Many EMS jurisdictions do no allow for this procedure, even by trained personnel. MORE ADVANCED TREATMENT - If you know the person is allergic to stngs, DO NOT WAIT for the Sx to occur - delay can be fatal. If the victim has an insect sting kit, assist them in administering the contents of the kit. Transport the person immediately! --DISCLAIMER-- Many EMS jurisdictions do no allow for this procedure, even by trained personnel. OK, FROM HERE OUT, I'M DESCRIBING WHAT A EMT-I/A/P MIGHT DO - Administer diphenhydramine, 25 to 100 mg IM or IV - Frequently asses vitals, LOC, airway - If respiratory involvement ensues without shock, administer 0.1 to 0.5 mg epinephrin 1:1000 subcutaneously. (This is what is usually in the insect sting kit.) Pediactric dose is 0.01 mg/kg. Diphenhydramine may be given IV in this case. - If the victim is in shock, give high flow O2! Hyperventillate the patient as ssoon as is possible. Intubation is required even if the person is conscious, ventillate with a bag-valve-mask if necessary. Adminsiter lactated ringer's or normal saline solution, infusion rate depending on blood pressure. Administer epinephrin 0.3 to 0.5 mg 1:1000 IV, very slowly. If IV initiation is delayed, give subcutaneously. - Administer additional drug therapy as ordered by a physician. This usually includes phenhydramine 25 to 100 mg IV. Theophylline ethyl- enediamine (aminophylline) at a loading dose of 6mg/kg IV infusion, diluted in 100 mL D5W or normal saline over a 20 minute period is useful for bronchospasm. The pediatric loading dose is the same, but in D5 0.9% NaCl. Aquatic Bites/Stings -------------------- There are some basic differences between bites from marine life and those of land animals. The venom from aquatic creatures usually cause more extensive damage to the tissues. Second, venoms from marine life can be destroyed with heat. So, NEVER EVER EVER USE ICE on this type of bite. This does not mean that you should deep-fry the injury either! Just use something WARM (heat pack, or water). Given the amount of tissue damage likely, treat like any other trauma: Control bleeding (direct pressure, elevation, pressure points) Treat for Shock (lye down, elevate the legs, keep warm) Give BLS (Basic Life Support - mouth-to-mouth, etc.) Transport ASAP General treatment for venomous bites includes: Transport ASAP (call 911) Apply a constricting band above the bite or sting. Check for a pulse in the limb to ensure you havn't made a tournequit. Remove any material that sticks to the site on the _surface_ of the skin. Don't use your bare hands! Use forceps or tweezers. Irrigate the wound thoroughly with water. If the skin is _unbroaken_, wash the area with a mild agent such as Alcoholic Zephiran, strong soap solution, or ammonia. NEVER SCRUB THE WOUND. Make _certain_ the fluids flow away from both you and the patient. These fluids will induce further reactions! Remove stingers and barbs the same way in which you would remove a bee stinger. Be careful not to squeese more venom into the wound. If the stinger is barbed and you can't EASILY remove it, support the stinger or barb with gause and bandages such that it can't move. Transport for surgical removal. Apply heat and maintain the area at a temperature of 110 to 114 degrees F for 30 to 40 minutes. Apply heat for another 30 minutes if Sx reappear. Specific Treatments: For tentacle stings from jellyfish, coral, hydras, and anemones: 1 Remove the victim from the water, BE CAREFUL 2 Call 911 3 Pour rubbing alcohol on the affected areas to denature the toxins 4 Sprinkle meat tenderizer on the affected areas to destroy the toxins 5 Sprinkle talcum power on the affected areas 6 Transport ASAP For puncture wounds like those from a stingray or from spiny fish: 1 Remove the victim from the water, BE CAREFUL 2 Call 911 3 Immobolize the injured part 4 Soak the injured part in hot water for at least 30 minutes, chaning the water to maintain temperature (~110 degress F) 5 Transport ASAP Hope this is informative. Regards, Steve -- From dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com Sun Jun 5 05:09:22 EDT 1994 Article: 34034 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!csn!server!ren!dschmitz From: dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com (Dave Schmitz) Subject: Re: Synthetic pesticides Message-ID: Sender: usenet@stortek.com Nntp-Posting-Host: ren.teq.stortek.com Reply-To: dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com Organization: STK References: Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 17:55:42 GMT Lines: 34 Status: O X-Status: Quoting from earlier posts . . . > >>>number of deaths due to cancer has risen astronomically in our > >>>post war industrial age. I don't think this is a coincidence. > women getting older. The National academy of sciences estimates that 3% of > all cancers are caused by pesticides. Gardeners use pesticides, and the > debate is very relevant here. > Pesticides pose a very serious health risk. Cancer is becoming more > prevalent. I grew up in a farm state, and in going back on visits, it is striking how many farmers have come down with prostate trouble. Does anyone know of a connection? Also, there are songbirds, whoops, _were_ songbirds, that I don't hear any more. As an interesting aside, y'all remember the Newsweek issue about pollution, the one that had an article about the chemical plants on the lower Mississippi, the one that had a back cover advertisement for herbicides for a beautiful green lawn ? Dave o s Disclaimer under c n tr ion: No one can have my opinyns /////// uct opinuyns /////// opiniuns /////// views. From nicmad!klebba%astroatc.uucp@spool.cs.wisc.edu Sun Jun 5 05:09:43 EDT 1994 Article: 34422 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.moneng.mei.com!uwm.edu!daffy!uwvax!astroatc!nicmad!usenet From: Bob Klebba Subject: Re: Synthetic pesticides Message-ID: <1994Jun3.182519.21373@nicmad.uucp> X-Xxdate: Fri, 3 Jun 94 13: 27:51 GMT Sender: usenet@nicmad.uucp Nntp-Posting-Host: mac2_14 Organization: Nicolet Instrument Corporation X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d24 References: Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 18:25:19 GMT Lines: 16 Status: O X-Status: In article Dave Schmitz, dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com writes: > I grew up in a farm state, and in going back on visits, it is striking > how many farmers have come down with prostate trouble. Does anyone > know of a connection? I live in an agricultural area of an agricultural state. I don't know about prostate cancer, but I can tell you that when I go to the coop, I see a lot of farmers with loss of pigmentation on the hands and forearms. I know that most of them are more careful nowadays with their chemicals, but it's pretty obvious that they haven't always been. Robert Klebba USDA zone 4 Nicolet Instrument Corp. Madison, WI, USA "Submit to Barney" From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Jun 5 05:10:48 EDT 1994 Article: 34225 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!psuvax1!news.ecn.bgu.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367 From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Subject: Re: Synthetic pesticides Message-ID: Sender: news@freenet.carleton.ca (Usenet News Admin) Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews) Organization: The National Capital FreeNet References: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 14:15:08 GMT Lines: 265 Status: O X-Status: In a previous article, dschmitz@magellan.teq.stortek.com (Dave Schmitz) says: >Quoting from earlier posts . . . > >> >>>number of deaths due to cancer has risen astronomically in our >> >>>post war industrial age. I don't think this is a coincidence. > >> women getting older. The National academy of sciences estimates that 3% of >> all cancers are caused by pesticides. Gardeners use pesticides, and the >> debate is very relevant here. > >> Pesticides pose a very serious health risk. Cancer is becoming more >> prevalent. > >I grew up in a farm state, and in going back on visits, it is striking >how many farmers have come down with prostate trouble. Does anyone >know of a connection? > >Also, there are songbirds, whoops, _were_ songbirds, that I don't hear >any more. > >As an interesting aside, y'all remember the Newsweek issue about pollution, >the one that had an article about the chemical plants on the lower >Mississippi, the one that had a back cover advertisement for herbicides >for a beautiful green lawn ? > >Dave > o s >Disclaimer under c n tr ion: No one can have my opinyns /////// > uct opinuyns /////// > opiniuns /////// > views. > > > > > Your right about prostate cancer and the lower mississipi. For interesting reading about the lower mississippi and the pollution there read Ben Goldman, Mortality and Toxics along the mississippi, Washington D.C. Greenpeace 1988 As for prostate cancer There have been over 200 independent studies that link 2,4-D with various diseases. 2,4-D is found in 1,500 over the counter weed killers. The National Cancer Institute has linked pesticide exposures to lymphatic cancers. Their study was based on 948 farmers who had cancer and an equal number who did not. Exposed individuals were 600% more likely to contract cancer than people who did not contact the pesticide. Farmers who used protective equipment, such as respirators, gloves, and a change of clothing after contact were able to reduce the risk by only 20%. Hazleton laboratories found that 10% of rats exposed to 2,4-D developed brain tumours. 2,4-D is contaminated with dioxins during manufacture. Dioxins are the most potent poison known to man. The Veterans Legal Services Project of Washington D.C. reviewed 285 different published studies of human exposure to phenoxy herbicides and dioxins. They found that they caused specific cancers, skin and liver disorders, reproductive and developmental disorders, low sperm counts, spontaneous abortions in the wives of the affected individuals, increased birth defects, including skin, nerve, heart, kidney, and cleft lips and palate. The study went on to say there was "sound scientific evidence" of an association between the 2-4,D and a whole host of other diseases including cancer of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon, >>>>prostate<<<<<, liver, psychological effects, immune system disorders, gastrointestinal ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism. Another common chemical used for lawn care is M.C.P.A. (4- CHLOR-2METHYLPHENOXY ACIDIC ACID). This is an organic acid that is closely related to 2,4-D. The chemical industry will create a compound similar to a pesticide that is found to be dangerous. It takes years for the new chemical to be proven as dangerous as the old chemical. The two most common weed killers used around the home are 2,4- D and diazanon. Diazanon is known to be a hazard to songbirds. SOURCES: A. Blair, " Herbicides and non-Hodgkins lymphoma New evidence from a study of Saskatchewan farmers" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 1990 Pages 544-545 Olav Axelson and others, " Herbicide Exposure and Tumour Mortality" Scandinavian Journal of Work, Environment, and Health Volume 6 March 1980 pages 73-79 Mikael Eriksson and others," Exposure to Dioxins as a risk factor for Soft Tissue Sarcoma: A Population based case control study" Journal of the National Cancer Institute Volume 82 March 22 1991 pages 486-490 National Veterans Legal Services Project "Human Health Effects Associated with exposure to Herbicides and or their associated Contaminants - Chlorinated Dioxins" (Washington D.C. National Veterans Legal Services Project, 2001 S Street N.W. Washington D.C. A recent study in the British Medical Journal concluded that men in western countries today have sperm counts less than half as high as their grandfathers had at the same age. In addition the increase in cancer of the testicles has increased 4 fold in the last 40 years; and various birth defects to the male reproductive system have increased 4 fold during the same time period. Evidence is mounting that these changes are caused by exposure of males very early in life to chemicals that act like estrogens. Synthetic chemicals that mimic estrogens include contraceptives, D.E.S. which was fed to beef cattle from the 50's to the 70's, and pesticides. We now live in an environment that can be viewed as a virtual sea of estrogens. Chlorinated hydrocarbons, ie pesticides, mimic hormones and interfere with the endocrine system of wildlife and humans. Studies link them to breast cancer in women and testicular cancer in their sons and prostate cancer in older men. Thus breast cancer, testicular cancer, and defects in the male reproductive system including diminished sperm count all seem linked. Diminished sperm count is a serious matter. Many animals produce up to 1,400 times as much sperm as is needed for fertility. In contrast the average human produces only 2 to 4 times as much sperm as is needed to fertilize a human egg. Sources: E Carlsen and others, "Evidence for decreasing quality of semen during past 50 years." British Medical Journal Vol 305 1992 pages 609-613 A.Giwercman and others "The human testis-an organ at risk?" International Journal of Andrology? Vol 15 1992 pages 373-375. R Sharpe and others "Are Estrogens involved in falling sperm counts and disorders of the male reproductive tract" The Lancet Vol 341 May 1993 pages 1392-1395. R.Sharpe "Are oestrogens involved in falling sperm counts..." The Lancet Volume 341 May 29 1993. "Estrogen chemicals lower sperm count" Chemical and Engineering News June 7 1993 pages 28. Plus 12 other research paper on the same topic indicating the same conclusion. New York office of the Attorney General. Ask for "The secret Hazards of Pesticides Inert Ingredients" by Susan Jaffe, Michael Surgan and Timothy P. Urban. Free copies of this report are available from the Office of Public Information NY State Department of Law, 120 Broadway N.Y. N.Y. 10271. "Lawn care pesticides. Risks remain uncertain while prohibited safety claims continue". U.S. Accounting office Free Upon request phone orders accepted 1-202-512-6000 Ask for document # RCED-90-134 THE UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN ONTARIO DEPARTMENT OF PLANT SCIENCES June 21 1993 Dear Council RE: TOXIC PROPERTIES OF PESTICIDES USED ON CITY PARKS AND PROPERTY In reply to the clerks letter and report of June 11 1993 I have prepared comments on the toxic threat of pesticides listed in the report. For the most part the information was gathered from BASIC GUIDE TO PESTICIDES, S BRIGGS 1992. In some instances I will list other authoritative sources that include additional information. INSECTICIDES ACEPHATES: (Orthene) mutagen,carcinogen, fetotoxic, and feminizes rats, kills birds. BASCILLUS THURINGIENSIS: (Dipel) no problems other than use promotes genetic tolerance in pests BENDIOCARB (Trumpet) causes cataracts in people and kills birds CARBARYL (Sevin) mutagen, carcinogen, potent at causing birth defects CHLOROPYRIFOS (Dursban) fetotoxic, delayed nerve damage (demylenation) causing loss of use of limbs, kills birds, causes multiple sclerosis and atopy (allergy). Arch.Env.Health, 48,89,1993 DIAZINON mutagen, nerve tonic, allergic dermatitis, damages immune system. Kills songbirds and Canada Geese. Banned for lawn application in the USA. DIAZINON G mutagen, nerve tonic, allergic dermatitis, damages immune system. Kills songs birds and Canada geese, Banned in USA DICHLORVOS D.D.V.P. carcinogen, mutagen, birth defects, testicular atrophy DIMETHOATE (Lagon) carcinogen, mutagen, birth defects, testicular atrophy. KINOPRENE (Enstar) (E,E)- 3,7,11-trimethyl-2,4-dodecornoate No information available. MALATHION mutagen,birth defects, delayed nerve damage MINERAL OIL (Dormant Oil) implicated in human cancer (IARC) POT. SALTS OF FATTY ACIDS (Soap) safe MITICIDES DIENOCHLOR (Pentac) chronic studies not available. FENBUTATINOXIDE (Vendex) chronic studies not available however many related biotin pesticides cause birth defects. HERBICIDES 2,4-D - causes cancer in humans and dogs, birth defects. 2,4-D MECOPROP - mutation, birth defects (Mecoprop) 2,4-D MECOPROP DICAMBA (dicamba) birth defects, mutation (dicamba) British J.Ind.Med.50,340,1993 FENOXAPROP ( Acclaim ) birth defects GLYPHOSATE: (Round up) carcinogen, mutagen. May contain contaminants such as dioxane a carcinogen or POEA implicated in fatal poisonings. FUNGICIDES ANILANZINE: (Dyrene) chronic toxicity unreported BENOMYL (Benlate) carcinogen, birth defects, reduced sperm CHLORONEB (Terraneb) Kidney, liver and blood damage CHLOROTHALONIL (Daconil) carcinogen, eye and skin damage. IPRODIONE WP (Rovral) chronic toxicity unreported PCNB: (Quintozene) mutagen, toxic to fish and birds. SULPHUR: safe THIOPHANATE METHYL: (Easeout) decrease body weight of newborn THIRAM: mutagen, carcinogen, birth defects. TRIFORINE: (Funginex) carcinogen IARC sci. Publ. 1980 GROWTH REGULATORS DAMINOZIDE: (B - nine) (Alar) cancer of blood cells MALEIC HYDRAZIDE: (Maintain) cancer IARC 1974 Finally, I wish to strongly urge the use of diazinon and chloropyrophos be discontinued. Song bird populations are beginning to decline to tragic levels in part due to these pesticides. The impact chloropyophos on multiple sclerosis and atopy ( allergy mainly asthma ) means that it may create human suffering when used in public locations. Sincerely (Signed) J.E. Cummins Assoc.Prof(Genetics) End of document from J.E.Cummins -- 0 >:< Factoid: the average car Kills 32 moths, 67 flies, _ /=_ 9 Bees, and 2 Monarch Butterflies/ hr. But who really ......(_)>(_)........cares, Now watch that sucker swallow a moth. Hah he's probably a vegatarian. From segura@owlnet.rice.edu Sun Jun 5 05:16:01 EDT 1994 Article: 34033 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!newsfeed.rice.edu!rice!owlnet.rice.edu!segura From: segura@owlnet.rice.edu (Chad James Segura) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: PTW lumber Date: 31 May 1994 21:51:13 GMT Organization: Rice University Lines: 97 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2sgbgh$on5@larry.rice.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: barred.owlnet.rice.edu Status: O X-Status: A recent posting stated that PTW is DANGEROUS! And also GET IT OUT OF YOUR YARD! Well, folks, it isn't that simple and few things are. If you have nonrotting Pressure-treated wood in your yard right now it is probably best to try to do whatever you can to preserve it in your yard and delay adding hazardous waste to our landfills. Let me explain further: 1. Most studies and almost all studies I believe (not all of which were paid for by lumber and CCA manufacturers) show no danger from leaching of poisons from intact PTW. 2. However, what most studies do not mention is that PTW will eventually rot, even the 40 yr. guaranteed wood (in Houston, fat chance of 40 years). Where this CCA will go when the wood finally does rot? I don't know but studies of root vegetables and their intake of these highly people toxic material would make me careful around potatoes, radishes, etc. What do I do if I'm looking at building something that may require wood? 1. Do I really need something manufactured? Would a natural hedge do? 2. If I need something manufactured, will something other than wood do? 3. If it has to be wood, does it need to be PTW? In most parts of the country except the southeast and maybe humid part of the Far Northwest (I'm speaking of the U.S.), PTW is unnecessary. In parts of the country where termites, etc. are rampant, not all of the wood structure need be made of PTW. Here, in Houston, responsible fence installers use PTW only for wood members which are either horizontal or in ground contact. If you are in termite-prone area, think twice about using some wood besides PTW if you are environmentally conscious. For every one installation of ground-contact PTW, you may need eight to ten ground- contact installations of cedar (BTW, it's hard-to-find cedar heartwood and not just plain cedar which is relatively rot-resistant) to last the same number of years. Therefore, you are cutting that many more trees, wasting that much more fuel in lumber trucks and sawmill operation, etc. If a study comparing these different forms of pollution has been done I haven't seen it. What do I do if I already have PTW in the yard? 1. If it is rotting, it needs to immediately go to a hazardous waste landfill. 2. If it were brand new and thus might have a little CCA dust on the surface and I grew root vegetables or if it were getting pretty old and I grew root vegetables very close by, I'd get the soil tested. Remember that there are background levels or arsenic and chromium in every soil. 3. If the fence looks to be in good shape, one should try to preserve to fence by using pebbles near the ground contact areas to get good drainage. It is also suggested by Mr. Compost to use a wood preservative but I'm not sure if the addition of another relatively toxic substance would be sound environmentally as compared to preserving the PTW wood for a longer period. I did not mention manufacturing. There are methods of protecting manufacturing workers in this industry, so I don't see this as a problem. I don't know anything about the manufacturing waste disposal in this industry, so I can't comment to say except that if there if substantial dangerous waste releases, there are ways to reduce it if the buying public is willing to pay for it. Last year I bought a fence which consists of PTW cross-members, 1' wide PTW rotboards at the bottom, PTW posts (remember, I am in Houston), cedar vertical slats, and a cedar lattice. I knew nothing of PTW then. Knowing what I know now I would probably have spent a little more and gotten metal posts. However, though I would have thought about getting cypress for the rotboard and crossmembers, cypress is just too hard to find (hear that, lumber companies) and I probably still would have gotten PTW wood. In twenty years, when I go through this again, perhaps there will be a low cost, attractive, environmentally responsible and practical way to go. Whatever happens, if I did not use PTW it would not be because of any danger to crops, it would be because of possible long term consequences of the disposal of this stuff. Willing to update my opinions as new information becomes available (or is driven to become available by us consumers), Chad segura@owlnet.rice.edu A From scd@atria.com Sun Jun 5 05:18:12 EDT 1994 Article: 34245 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!noc.near.net!atria.com!argon!scd From: scd@atria.com (Steve Daukas) Subject: Re: PTW lumber Message-ID: Sender: news@atria.com Nntp-Posting-Host: argon.atria.com Organization: Atria Software, Inc. X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] References: <2sgbgh$on5@larry.rice.edu> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:31:41 GMT Lines: 104 Status: O X-Status: Chad James Segura (segura@owlnet.rice.edu) wrote: : A recent posting stated that PTW is DANGEROUS! And also GET IT : OUT OF YOUR YARD! : Well, folks, it isn't that simple and few things are. If you : have nonrotting Pressure-treated wood in your yard right now : it is probably best to try to do whatever you can to preserve : it in your yard and delay adding hazardous waste to our landfills. : Let me explain further: : 1. Most studies and almost all studies I believe (not all of which : were paid for by lumber and CCA manufacturers) show no danger : from leaching of poisons from intact PTW. This is not entirely true. The arsenic does not leach from the wood - it is too tightly bound. The remaining chemicals do leach, but become too tightly bound to the soil in _immediate contact_ with the PT lumber to leach further. This is true for both intact and non-intact PT lumber. : 2. However, what most studies do not mention is that PTW will : eventually rot, even the 40 yr. guaranteed wood (in Houston, : fat chance of 40 years). Where this CCA will go when the : wood finally does rot? I don't know but studies of root : vegetables and their intake of these highly people toxic : material would make me careful around potatoes, radishes, etc. The studies perfromed by the EPA show that roots DO NOT take up these substances and survive. In fact, the EPA states that there is no known evidence that roots take-up the chemicals and pass them on to humans. The ONLY recommendation made by the EPA is to plant about 10 inches away from the PT lumber so that the plants don't die. : What do I do if I'm looking at building something that may require : wood? : 1. Do I really need something manufactured? Would a natural hedge : do? : 2. If I need something manufactured, will something other than : wood do? : 3. If it has to be wood, does it need to be PTW? In most parts : of the country except the southeast and maybe humid part of : the Far Northwest (I'm speaking of the U.S.), PTW is unnecessary. : In parts of the country where termites, etc. are rampant, not : all of the wood structure need be made of PTW. Here, in Houston, : responsible fence installers use PTW only for wood members which are : either horizontal or in ground contact. I think the easiest solution is to use concrete (piers or blocks). Then, the issue of PT is moot. Concrete can be stained so it doesn't look like concrete, and if designed into the structure properly, will not show. I built a deck out of cedar (white, non heart) and it sits on concrete piers via metal standoffs. I simply added a skirt board around the base (its about 1' and 1.5' off the ground, so I used a 10" skirt) and followed with some "foundation" plantings. When I put up a fence (split-rail, pine), I simply placed the piers under ground level (about 4 inches), placed the posts on the piers and filled the remaing hole with gravel. In 16 years, there has been no rot. By the way... Many states/towns require the use of certain materials for ground contact. Where I have lived (CT, NH, MA), an inspection would FAIL if untreated wood were used for supports for a deck, for example, in direct contact with the ground. The practice of simply driving a post 3 or 4 feet into the ground will not pass muster unless its PT. : If you are in termite-prone area, think twice about using some wood : besides PTW if you are environmentally conscious. For every one : installation of ground-contact PTW, you may need eight to ten ground- : contact installations of cedar (BTW, it's hard-to-find cedar heartwood : and not just plain cedar which is relatively rot-resistant) to last the : same number of years. Therefore, you are cutting that many more trees, : wasting that much more fuel in lumber trucks and sawmill operation, etc. : If a study comparing these different forms of pollution has been done : I haven't seen it. : What do I do if I already have PTW in the yard? : 1. If it is rotting, it needs to immediately go to a hazardous waste : landfill. : 2. If it were brand new and thus might have a little CCA dust on the surface : and I grew root vegetables or if it were getting pretty old and I : grew root vegetables very close by, I'd get the soil tested. Remember : that there are background levels or arsenic and chromium in every : soil. Remember to test the soil at least 10 inches away from the lumber. : 3. If the fence looks to be in good shape, one should try to preserve to : fence by using pebbles near the ground contact areas to get good : drainage. It is also suggested by Mr. Compost to use a wood preservative : but I'm not sure if the addition of another relatively toxic substance : would be sound environmentally as compared to preserving the PTW wood : for a longer period. The EPA recommends using a water-based sealer on the PT lumber on those areas that will come into ground contact. Regards, Steve -- From Fletcher@prairienet.org Sun Jun 5 05:21:30 EDT 1994 Article: 34049 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu!Fletcher From: Fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: QUERY: horticulture gophers, WWW for Master Gardener project Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:40:13 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu Status: RO X-Status: I am working on a interesting project with my fellow Master Gardeners at the U. of Illinois' Cooperative Extension. We are planning to become volunteer information providers on our local freenet, Prairienet. We would like to provide a menu of pointers to useful gopher, ftp, and WWW sources for horticulture and gardening files/information as part of our menus. We are particularly interested in other Master Gardener programs who've gone online (e.g.,Texas A&M Extension). We have a pretty good list already but are looking for anything of interest - for both DOS-based dialup access and Mosaic. Any contributions welcome - please e-mail me. I can post results if there's enough interest. Thanks. If there are any Master Gardeners out there who are involved in similar projects or would like to be - drop me a line, I'd be interested in hearing from you. Karen Fletcher fletcher@prairienet.org ================================================================= "Eventually people realized that the information superhighway was essentially CB radio, but with more typing." - Dave Barry ================================================================= From Fletcher@prairienet.org Sun Jun 5 05:24:32 EDT 1994 Article: 34049 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu!Fletcher From: Fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: QUERY: horticulture gophers, WWW for Master Gardener project Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:40:13 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: fletcher.cba.uiuc.edu Status: O X-Status: I am working on a interesting project with my fellow Master Gardeners at the U. of Illinois' Cooperative Extension. We are planning to become volunteer information providers on our local freenet, Prairienet. We would like to provide a menu of pointers to useful gopher, ftp, and WWW sources for horticulture and gardening files/information as part of our menus. We are particularly interested in other Master Gardener programs who've gone online (e.g.,Texas A&M Extension). We have a pretty good list already but are looking for anything of interest - for both DOS-based dialup access and Mosaic. Any contributions welcome - please e-mail me. I can post results if there's enough interest. Thanks. If there are any Master Gardeners out there who are involved in similar projects or would like to be - drop me a line, I'd be interested in hearing from you. Karen Fletcher fletcher@prairienet.org ================================================================= "Eventually people realized that the information superhighway was essentially CB radio, but with more typing." - Dave Barry ================================================================= From saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Sun Jun 5 05:25:21 EDT 1994 Article: 34127 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!agate!usenet From: saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Soil Amendments (try a permanent mulch?) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 94 10:27:20 PDT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 52 Message-ID: <2sih6k$4gh@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <2sgqio$d62@s.ms.uky.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: largo.ucop.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: NEWTNews & Chameleon -- TCP/IP for MS Windows from NetManage Status: O X-Status: > From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) > Subject: Soil Amendments > Date: 31 May 1994 22:08:24 -0400 > Our region was hit by a couple of very severe ice storms back in > february, and the various city governments had a real hard time > disposing of all the downed tree limbs and so on. Partly as a result > of this, I seem to have a lot of free soil amendments available and was > wondering where to best concentrate my effort. > > Our local government burned much of its debris, leaving this *huge* > pile of very light ash with some chunkier stuff mixed in. . . . > > I can also get shredded wood from one of the other counties (they'll > even fill the truck for you, they're so desparate to get rid of it), > but this stuff is so coarsely ground . . . > > Meanwhile, since this is horse country there are a few boarding stables > around which will let you haul away manure. . . . > > So basically I'm wondering: should I concentrate on one of these or > what? Presumably there will always be manure available, but if I want > ash (or shredded wood) I'd have to get it now and stockpile it. Mostly > I'm thinking of soil amendments next spring but I could compost this > year (I have to raid curbsides for grass since our mower lacks a grass > catcher) and add to that. Or perhaps apply it to the garden now, > though I'm not sure how since the garden's all planted at the moment. Kenneth - Perhaps this is a good opportunity for you to experiment with a permanent mulch. I have used permantent mulches for years, and often on really lousy, heavy, adobe clay, with marvelous results. I add ANY type of organics, the more the merrier, to my mulches, piling it up 6-8inches. Sometimes this is called 'sheet composting', and it works much the same way as composting (except a well-built pile is much more efficient). As I have almost no time to garden, even though I love it so much, I find permanent mulching to a real time saver - it keeps weeds at a minimum, helps maximise my water usage (here in the arid west, this is real important!), keep soil conditions cooler in summer and relatively warmer in winter (except in areas where the ground freezes or it gets really cold - here you will need to 'pull back' the mulch to get the ground warmed up for some plants), promotes rich soil life which helps provide more nutrients and predators for insect pests. I have always found this method superior to non-mulching, even with well-amended or naturally rich soil. Give it a try! Look up an old copy of Ruth Stout's 'No-Dig' Gardening in the library - she was one of the pioneers of this method. Let the group know of your experiences - I'm interested in how well this method works in climates other than my own. Sean A. O'Hara, 710 Jean St., Oakland, Ca. 94610-1459 saouc@uccmvsa.bitnet or sean.ohara@ucop.edu From abracad@efn.org Sun Jun 5 05:27:00 EDT 1994 Article: 34074 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!cs.uoregon.edu!efn!abracad From: abracad@efn.org (Abracadata Ltd.) Subject: Description and location of SPROUT! demo. Design your garden! Message-ID: Summary: Powerful gardening tool!!! Keywords: garden Organization: Prototype Eugene Free Net Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 06:54:00 GMT Lines: 45 Status: O X-Status: Sprout!(R) is a "ground breaking" program to help you plan your vegetable garden and schedule planting times. Its unique planting planting tool produces a graphic, scalable garden plan with correct plant and row spacing. Visualize how your garden will look before it is planted. Easy-to-use design tools help you effortlessly draw garden layouts. There are an unlimited number of scale choices available for each unit of measurement (inches, centimeters) allowing for a wide range of plot sizes. You can even use it for a small farm! It's packed with useful growing information. The program includes an edible database of over 80 vegetables for seven climate regions, complete with all the growing information needed to plan next year's harvest. A yield estimate, shopping list of seeds, pH chart, planting and harvest calendar is provided. In addition to a climate map of the United States, there are climate maps of Canada and Europe. Organize your planting information in one handy location each year to help you plan for successful crop rotations and to schedule successive plantings. ** SPECIAL OFFER!! ** Take $15.00 off the retail price of SPROUT! when you purchase it from this catalog. This program is available for the following systems, and requirements are listed. Retail: Windows: Windows 3.1 or higher. $59.95 DOS: Dos 3.3 or higher, 640k, hard drive, and mouse. $59.95 Mac: 1 MB RAM, hard drive recommended. $79.95 Demo filename: spr(dos,mac).zip * Macintosh Demo coming soon! Keep checking in!! This file is available on anonymous FTP site efn.org in /pub/abra. Just go into the directory with your system type (i.e. DOS, MAC, etc) and the demo file will be there! From pharvey@quack.kfu.com Sun Jun 5 05:29:44 EDT 1994 Article: 34255 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!quack!quack.kfu.com!pharvey From: pharvey@quack.kfu.com (Paul Harvey) Subject: Re: organic phosphorus source needed Message-ID: Sender: news@quack.kfu.com (0000-News(0000)) Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'. References: <1994Jun1.113107.1@engvms.unl.edu> Date: 2 Jun 1994 19:07:19 UTC Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: In article <1994Jun1.113107.1@engvms.unl.edu>, wrote: >Do I remeber it correctly that chicken manure is high in phosphorus? Relative to other manures: [N-P-K-S-C/N ratio] (~75% moisture contents) Cow: 0.6-0.2-0.5-0-18 Horse: 0.6-0.2-0.5-0.1-22 Pig: 0.7-0.4-0.4-0.1-14 Sheep: 1-0.3-1-0.1-16 Poultry: 1.5-1-0.5-0.2-7 Ref: Fertile Soil, Robert Parnes, 1990, ISBN:0-932857-03-5, agAccess, Davis, CA, (916) 756-7177 From lena@Happy-Man.com Sun Jun 5 05:30:59 EDT 1994 Article: 34141 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!nwnexus!beauty!lena From: lena@Happy-Man.com (Galena_Canada) Subject: Re: HELP: Organically Adding Nutrients at Run Time Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 17:36:22 GMT Message-ID: References: <1994May26.104142.18919@crash> Organization: Happy Man Corp, 4410 Pt Robinson, Vashon, WA 98070 206/463-9399 Lines: 36 Status: O X-Status: > How can I *organically* add nitrogen or (NPK)... Any fertilizer can be "side-dressed" after growth has begun. Just trickle a thin trail along beside the row, or around each plant, over the perimeter of the root zone. The standard cautions are (1) don't get it directly on the foliage or roots, and (2) don't disturb the roots. This said, good organic nitrogen sources are cottonseed meal (moderate), fresh manure and urine (high), and blood meal (v. high). Caution: Raw manure and blood will "burn" foliage -- carefully follow rule (1)! No need to dig it in, these N sources are quite soluble in water. If you don't expect rain soon, water it in (this will bring rain ;-). Be conservative when applying nitrogen: excess N leaches out rapidly and enters the watershed where it is a contaminant -- prevent runoff; use trap crops. And while it may be hard to get too much N into leaf and seed crops (spinach, corn), an excess leads to excessive green growth and poor fruiting or root development in crops grown for these (tomatoes, potatoes). In other works, when in doubt, use less, not more. In all cases, application of soluble nitrogen should be avoided on plants being grown for transplant or being hardened-up for winter. / 'Lena // // Avalon Farm lena@avalon.wa.com // P.O. Box 2226 // Vashon, WA 98070 (206) 463-9733 // // =======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======/=======// From jfsanders@delphi.com Sun Jun 5 05:34:19 EDT 1994 Article: 34297 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: Jack Sanders Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Seeking book recommendations -- herbs and wildflowers Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 20:38:47 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1d.delphi.com X-To: Milt Epstein Status: O X-Status: Milt Epstein writes: >Hi. I was hoping to get some book recommendations. Two actually. >One for something on herb gardening, and the other on wildflowers (but >perhaps you already figured that out :-). I'm interested in books If you are interested in learning of the natural history, folklore, name origins, etc., as well as something about gardening with wildflowers, I would humbly (well, perhaps not) recommend "Hedgemaids and Fairy Candles: The Lives and Lore of North American Wildflowers" (TAB/McGraw-Hill, 1993), written by this writer. It might help you decide which species would be most fun to have as well as which would do best in your environment. All the best, --Jack From xee@delphi.com Sun Jun 5 05:35:09 EDT 1994 Article: 34189 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!convex!uunet!news.delphi.com!usenet From: Steven Winston Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: About Killing Things/Orga Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 00:07:39 -0500 Organization: Delphi (info@delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice) Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <1900.320.uupcb@yob.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bos1a.delphi.com X-To: Steve Rehrauer Status: O X-Status: Just a comment: After living in central Calif's San Joaquin Valley for 8 years I am utterly horrified by our entire system. Our promise is less freedom than it is consumerism, all esconced in the world's most hideous architecture squatting on endless square miles of concrete and asphalt. I am ready to go back to outhouses and tin bathtubs anyday. Modern America is a horror. From Joe.Russ@mixcom.mixcom.com Sun Jun 5 05:47:12 EDT 1994 Article: 34399 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.models.railroad,rec.railroad,rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!mixcom.com!Joe.Russ From: Joe Russ Subject: Re: Flames, and Problems with .zip files at our FTP. Message-ID: <1994Jun3.224353.11959@mixcom.mixcom.com> Sender: ffvvff@mixcom.mixcom.com (Joe Russ) Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milw, WI (414) 241-5469 References: Distribution: usa Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 22:43:53 GMT Lines: 25 Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.models.railroad:10949 rec.railroad:36426 rec.gardens:34399 Status: O X-Status: >(not to mention dedicated FTP sites). The outspoken "Internet moral >majority" has seen fit to make clear that our kind of business is >not welcome on the Internet. How about the "Internet moral minority"? Frankly, I commend (not condem) those of you at Abracadata, Ltd. for being one of the first large manufacturers to recognize that there is a place that modelers get information outside of the major trade publications. I was thrilled to see such a posting. Since your type of promotion here was somewhat new, I think it was somewhat of a shock to the Usenet community - hench the flames. After a while things will calm down, the flamers will crawl back into the woodwork, more advertisers will come, and we'll find more important matters to discuss (like a "scale war" perhaps). In the meantime, I hope you don't let the flammers discourage you and that you continue to use Usenet when you have new products to announce. -- Joe.Russ@mixcom.com WI$E Div., NMRA From jjkane@tigger.jvnc.net Sun Jun 5 05:47:46 EDT 1994 Article: 34223 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!jvnc.net!ringotty2.jvnc.net!jjkane From: jjkane@tigger.jvnc.net Subject: Detering deer in your rose garden Message-ID: Keywords: deer, roses Lines: 7 Sender: news@tigger.jvnc.net (Zee News Genie) Nntp-Posting-Host: ringotty2.jvnc.net Organization: JvNCnet X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 17:03:28 GMT Status: O X-Status: One way to keep deer away from your roses is to sprinkle chili powder around each rose. I have also used it around other flowers and it seems to do the trick. Use the cheap store brand, and reapply after a hard rain. Has anyone tried anything like this? At least it is not a pesticide, and usually gives good results. Margaret Kane From apilote@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM Sun Jun 5 05:49:39 EDT 1994 Article: 34357 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub6!ciss!wtcd!apilote From: apilote@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Angela Pilote) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Herbal **Equipment** Message-ID: <1414@wtcd.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> Date: 3 Jun 94 15:17:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Global Information Solutions - Dayton, OH USA Lines: 12 Status: O X-Status: Does anyone know where I can find some equipment (mail order?) for preparing Tinctures, Infusions, Essential Oils, etc. My herb garden is coming along just fine, now my problem is "What am I going to do with all of this stuff?" I dry most all of what I don't use fresh or make oils (cold infusion) with. I would like to start doing more. I know I can use wine presses and other equipment -- but am interested in some "one-stop, shop- at-home" catalogs. -- Angela.Pilote@DaytonOH.NCR.COM From hovan@apple.com Sun Jun 5 05:50:05 EDT 1994 Article: 34350 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!olivea!apple.com!usenet From: John Hovan Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Master Gardener Software Date: 3 Jun 1994 15:30:29 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc., Cupertino, California Lines: 83 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2snial$7gt@apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.127.7.31 X-UserAgent: Version 1.1.3 X-XXDate: Fri, 3 Jun 94 10:29:57 GMT Status: RO X-Status: PRESS RELEASE COMPANY: ROSETTA STONE INFORMATION SYSTEMS DATE: APRIL 1994 INTRODUCING: MASTER GARDENER, TREES AND SHRUBS v1.0 for the Apple Macintosh computer: Master Gardener v1.0... ...allows you to plan your landscape shrubs and trees before you head off to the nursery. ...gives you access to over 400 color images with the click of a mouse. ...provides you with Latin pronunciations of more than 600 trees and shrubs. ...allows you the freedom of visualizing gardening information in new ways by using the powerful search capabilities which even the best gardening books cannot provide. ...gives you the power to view trees and shrubs by common name or scientific name. Personally, this is the most exciting features of this CD has to offer after the personal disappointment of wading through endless gardening books with terrible indexes. ...has one of the worlds most complete greenhouse supplier database with vendor phone numbers. ...as an added bonus allows you access to information such as State Trees, a compost calculator, common vendors in the gardening industry, botanical gardens in the US. and a complete section of gardening terms along with definitions. Imagine being able to.... ...create a list of all the trees and shrubs that grow in Zone 5, have yellow color, grow taller than 15 feet, are deciduous and drought tolerant! It would take a Master Gardener or nursery expert hours to compile such a list that this software will provide to you in minutes! ...create the perfect carbon to nitrogen ratio in your compost pile to make compost in half the time with an exacting recipe. The compost calculator in Master Gardener lets you do just that along with allowing you to add you own materials with their specific carbon and nitrogen ratios. ...teach and show your children or students some of the beauty that nature has to offer. ...have at your fingertips the definitions of over 100 gardening and botanical terms. If you are as excited a gardening enthusiast as I am, I know you will love this product! TO ORDER YOUR COPY AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE INTRODUCTORY PRICING: (Suggested Retail Price is $29.) Send $18.00 which includes $3 for shipping to: Rosetta Stone Information Systems PO Box 1488 Pflugerville, TX 78691 If you would like more information on the Master Gardener Software or if you would like to sell Master Gardener in you Nursery Center or Gardening Catalog, call (512) 251-9009. Sincerely, John Lincoln Hovan Gardener and President of Rosetta Stone Information Systems A DOS version may be available in the future. Macintosh is a trademark of Apple Computer Corporation From greggpsky@aol.com Sun Jun 5 05:52:06 EDT 1994 Article: 34444 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!caen!malgudi.oar.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: greggpsky@aol.com (Gregg Psky) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Recommed books, etc.: Desert Date: 4 Jun 1994 12:19:01 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 38 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2sq9hl$q68@search01.news.aol.com> References: <2so8iv$inp@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: In article <2so8iv$inp@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU>, stoddard@helium.Gas.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Mari J Stoddard) writes: >After years in apartments and condos, I have house. And a yard. Help! >What's a good book on desert gardening and landscaping? I have the Sunset >Western garden book, but the lists of plants are a bit intimidating >without more planning-type information. >Tucson is zone 8, Sunset's region 12. Easy care plants, especially herbs, >edibles, or sweet scented shrubs that attract hummingbirds, would be my >first choice. It's a little yard, so little plants would be best. >Recommendations for nurseries, seed catalogs, books, or magazines will be >appreciated. Thank you very much, I'm told that the Sonoran Desert Museum in or near Tucson is an excellent source for native landscape planting. I've never been there but most museums have a book shelf, and they certainly have people who want to help. There is also Mountain States Nursery, (602) 247-8509. I'm not sure if they are retail but I have some nice consumer literature from them. Mountain States specializes in arid horticulture. Finally, without getting too technical there is an HP Book on "Plants for Dry Climates" and a new updated version of Bob Perry's book, "Trees and Shrubs for Dry California Landscapes." Get the new release it is spectacular. Good luck Gregg Polubinsky Landscape Architect From csgatlin@rodan.syr.edu Sun Jun 5 05:53:04 EDT 1994 Article: 34395 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.edu!newstand.syr.edu!rodan.syr.edu!csgatlin From: csgatlin@rodan.syr.edu (Cheryl Sue Gatling) Subject: Re: garden software Message-ID: <1994Jun3.225123.16318@newstand.syr.edu> Sender: netnews@newstand.syr.edu (Network News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: rodan.syr.edu Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY References: <1994May26.203051.6903@bnlux1.bnl.gov> Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 22:51:23 GMT Lines: 26 Status: O X-Status: In article <1994May26.203051.6903@bnlux1.bnl.gov> como@ax61.bnl.gov () writes: >Looking for garden software. Can anyone help > >Thanks in advance > > The Better Homes and Gardens Special Interest Publication: Garden Products and Planning Guide (available at newsstands now) has an article called "Go Green on the Screen". It lists four software programs. Sprout!, Abracadata, Ltd., P.O.Box2440, Eugene, OR 97402; 800/451-4871 LandDesigner, Green Thumb Software, Inc., 75 Manhattan Dr., Suite 100, Boulder, CO 80303; 800/336-3127 Design Your Own Home-Landcape, Abracadata, address and phone above Landscape, Autodesk Retail Products, 11911 North Creek Pkwy., S, Bothell, WA 98011; 800/223-3601. I haven't tried any of these, so I can't comment on if they're any good, but it's a place to start. Cheryl Gatling From idi002@cck.coventry.ac.uk Sun Jun 5 05:53:37 EDT 1994 Article: 33854 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!pipex!warwick!news.coventry.ac.uk!news.coventry.ac.uk!not-for-mail From: idi002@cck.coventry.ac.uk Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Research into Wheelbarrow Usage Date: 19 May 1994 22:59:44 +0100 Organization: Coventry University Lines: 79 Message-ID: <2rgngg$45h@cc_sysk.coventry.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: cc_sysk.coventry.ac.uk Status: O X-Status: I hope this is posted to the right group, it was the closest thing I could find that was related... Gardening Aid Questionnaire I am a student studying Industrial Design at Coventry University, England, and am doing some research into the usage of wheelbarrows or their substitutes. I would like to hear about _anyone's_ experiences, but am particularly interested in hearing from elderly or infirm people. All information supplied will be kept confidential. If you can help me by filling out the following questionnaire and e-mailing it back to me, I would be extremely grateful. Thanks in advance. ____________________________________________________________________ - Personal information Age: Sex: - Your wheelbarrow (please be as specific as possible) Brand/type: Construction: Volume & Weight Capacity: ____________________________________________________________________ - Wheelbarrow usage Do you use a wheelbarrow at all for gardening ? If not, why not ? (Do you use something else instead ?) What do you use it for ? (Tasks, materials) How often do you use it ? How far ? (Length of the garden ?) Do you use it for anything else other than gardening ? (Tasks, materials) ____________________________________________________________________ - Problems with current wheelbarrows Please note below any of the areas listed that you have experienced problems with, or are dissatisfied with. Operation - Control (moving, turning, lifting) Stability Loading, unloading Storage Size & shape-related Volume (too small/large/OK) Weight (too light/heavy/OK) Maintenance (moving parts, cleaning, corrosion) What do you think of how it looks ? ____________________________________________________________________ If you were to buy a wheelbarrow today, how much would you be willing to spend on it ? Would you prefer that it did more than a normal wheelbarrow or not ? If so, what else would you like it to be able to do ? Are there any other problems you experience with gardening in general ? What is the most difficult task to perform with gardening ? ____________________________________________________________________ Thank you very much for taking the time to complete this questionnaire. Please send completed questionnaires, or any questions, to me via e-mail: Shiro Wilde idi002@uk.ac.coventry.cck From JC_Gilliam@fccc.edu Sun Jun 5 05:58:00 EDT 1994 Article: 34340 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!emory!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!not-for-mail From: JC_Gilliam@fccc.edu (Jon C. Gilliam) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Salad Greens I have Known Date: 3 Jun 1994 08:37:15 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway Lines: 80 Sender: nobody@cs.utexas.edu Message-ID: <9406031336.AA07323@morgan.popgen.fccc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.cs.utexas.edu Status: O X-Status: One of the first benefits of my garden in the spring are the garden salads -- I can't really describe how much I enjoy these fresh greens. Here's some commentary on what's growing this year, and other info re salads: - The best dressing I've found for garden salads is plain Basalmic vinegar -- nice sweet/sour accompanyment that doesn't hide the taste of the salad. - A kitchen gadget I've been really pleased with is my Salad Spinner .. about $9 mail ordered from Pinetree (seed/garden catalog from Maine). This works like a washing machine in spinning off the water from your salad after you've washed the leaves. No more soggy salads! - Of course you knew this, but early dandelion leaves make a super addition to your salad. Next year, I may even plant a variety from seed, although I may have to keep it secluded in a back portion of the garden where my lawn-conscious neighbors aren't likely to notice :^). - I'm growing Burpee's oak leaf lettuce, and like it quite a bit -- crisp, dark green, mild. I'm also growing 'salad bowl' variety, which I like less -- light green ruffled, thin leaves. Both lettuces have loved an application of sprinkled dried blood (available at garden stores). - I'm growing sorrel this year, and planted quite a bit of it before discovering it is a perennial -- I would have given more thought to it's location. Texture and thickness is similar to beet greens, and the taste is delightful -- slightly sour and citric. I really like this green. - Throwing caution to the wind, I'm also growing a 'garden' variety of purslane, that low-creeping, red-stemed weed with succulent green leaves. This variety stands much more upright, has larger, lighter green leaves, and a sweeter taste than the wild purslane. I'm pleased with it, and am looking forward to weeding it next year :^). Variety is 'goldberger' or something like that. - My spinach this year is Burpee's Avon Hybrid -- I love the taste, but unfortunately so do the leaf miners. The leaves are only slightly crumpled, making it easier to wash. - I'm also growing a mesclun mix -- one sold by Pinetree seeds. It has (I think) 5 varieties of lettuce, and about the same number of varieties of different chichories. It makes a very good salad, but I think that next year I may either mix my own mesclun mix, or stick to planting many plots of different varieties of lettuce and greens. I like to be able to identify each element of my salad. - As if this were possible, I've underplanted radishes. I only like radishes when they're small and mild, and two or three to a salad. I'm making a note to start a square foot of radishes every week next year. - Looking forward to my radicchio forming heads -- they are close. I planted a very early variety (Silla? something like that). I'm also awaiting my first garden beet. - Edible pod peas -- Sugar Bon, the variety. Delicious! Super for salads. - My New Zeland spinach is just up. This is my first year for it -- I'm anxious to have something to accompany my Swiss chard for those summer salads! It's great to be green! :^) Bright blessings, :jon ----- Jon C. Gilliam First get your facts; then you can distort them at your leisure. -- Mark Twain From jcp@clark.net Sun Jun 5 05:58:26 EDT 1994 Article: 34379 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!news.umbc.edu!eff!news.kei.com!hookup!news2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!news.clark.net!not-for-mail From: jcp@clark.net (Jody C. Patilla) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Salad Greens I have Known Date: 3 Jun 1994 15:26:03 -0400 Organization: Fluffy Otter Kindercare Lines: 18 Message-ID: <2so04b$iot@explorer.clark.net> References: <9406031336.AA07323@morgan.popgen.fccc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: >: - A kitchen gadget I've been really pleased with is my Salad >: Spinner .. about $9 mail ordered from Pinetree (seed/garden >: catalog from Maine). This works like a washing machine in >: spinning off the water from your salad after you've washed >: the leaves. No more soggy salads! Instead of buying yet another space-consuing plastic gadjet for my kitchen, I put all the washed greens into a cheesecloth bag and go out in the garden and whirl it over my head until the water is spun out. Loads more fun, and it gives the neighbors something to wonder about. Old cotton pillowcases work equally well, btw. -- jcpatilla jcp@clark.net Do your otters dance the Morris? Do they shake their bells and bows? Do they love that fiddle music? Do they leap and kick their toes? From stoddard@helium.Gas.UUG.Arizona.EDU Sun Jun 5 05:58:53 EDT 1994 Article: 34390 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.kei.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!nic-nac.CSU.net!news.Cerritos.edu!news.Arizona.EDU!helium.Gas.UUG.Arizona.EDU!stoddard From: stoddard@helium.Gas.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Mari J Stoddard) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Recommed books, etc.: Desert Date: 3 Jun 1994 21:50:23 GMT Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group Lines: 17 Message-ID: <2so8iv$inp@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu Status: O X-Status: After years in apartments and condos, I have house. And a yard. Help! What's a good book on desert gardening and landscaping? I have the Sunset Western garden book, but the lists of plants are a bit intimidating without more planning-type information. Tucson is zone 8, Sunset's region 12. Easy care plants, especially herbs, edibles, or sweet scented shrubs that attract hummingbirds, would be my first choice. It's a little yard, so little plants would be best. Recommendations for nurseries, seed catalogs, books, or magazines will be appreciated. Thank you very much, -- Mari J. Stoddard stoddard@ccit.arizona.edu 602 / 626 - 2925 (voice) 602 / 626 - 2922 (fax) Arizona Health Sciences Library The University of Arizona in Tucson From jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org Sun Jun 12 23:18:52 EDT 1994 Article: 34506 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Wolmanized deck wood sap From: jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org (Jim Mcnelly) Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!umn.edu!newsdist.tc.umn.edu!uum1!gcbbgw!gcbb!jim.mcnelly Distribution: world Message-ID: <36.3233.2817.0NEB3E31@granite.mn.org> Date: Sun, 5 Jun 94 12:16:00 +0600 Organization: Granite City Connection St. Cloud MN 612-654-8372 Lines: 62 Status: O X-Status: Tom Kozma writes: TK>Not exactly a gardening question, but maybe someone can offer a suggestion. >Our 1.5 yr-old deck recently started oozing sap from the knots in the wood, >which is pressure-treated Ponderosa Pine. Has anyone experienced this probl Hi Tom, I get a kick out of the term "Wolmanized". It really means "impregnated with toxic levels of arsenic and lead with copper and chromium thrown in for good measure but we will call it something useless like "wolmanized" so people don't scream in horror when they buy it". TK>before? Can anything be done about it? One guy at the local hardware store >said it was fairly common, just part of the wood-seasoning process, and ther >was nothing to do but wait until all the sap come out, which might take a >year. Any advice appreciated. The guy at the hardware store is a useless source of information about hazardous materials in your backyard. He (she?) has little more than the "product data sheet" which is *supposed* to be handed out with *every* arsenic laced piece of lumber they sell. The fact that it is leaching toxic goo is a sign that you and your family are being exposed to skin cancer producing levels of arsenic in your own back yard from a product that is supposedly "non-leaching" of arsenic. The real story behind arsenic treated wood, which is what it SHOULD be called, is that chemical companies have gobbled up vast stands of southern pine forests and are impregnating it with arsenic levels 300 times the limit set by the EPA for the beneficial use of compost on farm land. Rather than kiln dry and cure the wood, they pressure treat it and get a price twice that of ordinary pine. They then launch a dis-information campaign touting the "non-leaching" properties of this green (in more ways than one) lumber claiming that it is "safe". Your testimony about sap leaching out is clear evidence that this cheap pine masquerading as long lasting lumber is a cruel hoax that is a part of the doubling of skin cancer rates over the past twenty years. What can I say? You and millions of other consumers have been duped and you are now exposed to hazardous levels of arsenic in the sap. I don't know which is worse, the sap leaching out poisoning children, the decks burning and poisoning the people down wind, the arsenic in the water where the wood is impregnated, the arsenic in the un-lined demolition landfills, or the householders decades from now when the rest of the leaching arsenic is leaching into their gardens. The product should be banned in my opinion. I can' believe that the rest of the environmental movement has been asleep about this problem. "Sap leaching is common". I could cry. Mr Compost~~~ Jim~ McNelly Granite Connection 612-259-0801 jim.mcnelly@granite.mn.org --- * June 4th - Get your modem runnin, Head out for the Highwaves! From jcp@clark.net Sun Jun 12 23:33:32 EDT 1994 Article: 34637 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!sundog.tiac.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!news.clark.net!not-for-mail From: jcp@clark.net (Jody C. Patilla) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Some thoughts about this group Date: 6 Jun 1994 21:41:04 -0400 Organization: Fluffy Otter Kindercare Lines: 46 Message-ID: <2t0j7g$dup@explorer.clark.net> References: <2979433963.0.p01353@psilink.com> <1994Jun4.220208.24482@casbs.stanford.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: clark.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: The subject of newbies and naive posters reminds me that I'd like to reiterate a few points of netiquette. One thing I have noticed recently is that too, too, many people are posting responses to long postings by quoting the entire posting, then adding their one or two lines of comment on the bottom. This makes me think that these folks must not understand how USENET news works. This is not your neighborhood PC bulletin board. Every article that is posted, and that includes all original message and all follow-ups and all quoted bits, is transmitted IN ITS ENTIRETY to every news server in the world. This means that your 2000 byte message (of which 1600 might be quoted stuff, 100 your reply and 300 your absurdly long .sig) will be multiplied thousands of times. It will reside on thousands of hard disks, taking up a total of megabytes of disk space world wide. This costs money, folks. It wastes resources, and it drives system administrators up a wall. For many sites on the net, getting news is a perk, a little bit of lagniappe that people squeeze in. But when the daily news delivery brings 10 megabytes of stuff to your little file server, all of a sudden it becomes hard to justify to the bean counters why you need more disk space. Remember that most Internet sites are systems on which people do real work, they are not public access systems that exist just to let people network around. I haven't even discussed the cost of the phone lines and telecom links for transmitting this huge amount of stuff. So, PLEASE, think before you post! Why do you think that your news software asks you if you really want to do this? Edit quoted articles as much as possible. Send e-mail whenever appropriate (and that is true for nearly all the one-liners and questions that I see posted). E-mail messages get sent once and live on one disk, not thousands, so they are quite economical. Edit your .signature file, and trim it down to a reasonable size. There is no excuse for a posting in which the .sig takes up twice the screen space of the actual content. Be a courteous member of the net community. THanks. -- jcpatilla jcp@clark.net Do your otters dance the Morris? Do they shake their bells and bows? Do they love that fiddle music? Do they leap and kick their toes? From photo@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Sun Jun 12 23:36:38 EDT 1994 Article: 34500 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!matt.ksu.ksu.edu!not-for-mail From: photo@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Murray Ryan Pickard) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Pond FAQ, still need some info! Date: 5 Jun 1994 14:01:39 -0500 Organization: Kansas State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <2st7ej$a4q@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Status: O X-Status: Hi, Well, the pond faq is slowwlly coming about, much thanks to the two or three netters that had saved many a postings and forwarded them to me. HOWEVER, I am still needing some additional info on: **CONCRETE pond construction **STOCKING (ie, snails, clams, frogs, ducks, deer, or whatever) AND also, some more input on UV Sterilizers, work/ don't work/ what size/ type to use. Use in conjunction with a filter or by themselves. I currently have the info I received divided into major catagories, and am working on further refining this info, unfortunately, I have had to work alot more the last couple of weeks than what I was scheduled, but should hopefully have something to present to the net by the end of this week for further proofing, refining, or whatever. Thanks for your assistance in this project, Murray Pickard aka photo@ksu.ksu.edu From photo@matt.ksu.ksu.edu Sun Jun 12 23:39:17 EDT 1994 Article: 34500 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!matt.ksu.ksu.edu!not-for-mail From: photo@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Murray Ryan Pickard) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Pond FAQ, still need some info! Date: 5 Jun 1994 14:01:39 -0500 Organization: Kansas State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <2st7ej$a4q@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Status: O X-Status: Hi, Well, the pond faq is slowwlly coming about, much thanks to the two or three netters that had saved many a postings and forwarded them to me. HOWEVER, I am still needing some additional info on: **CONCRETE pond construction **STOCKING (ie, snails, clams, frogs, ducks, deer, or whatever) AND also, some more input on UV Sterilizers, work/ don't work/ what size/ type to use. Use in conjunction with a filter or by themselves. I currently have the info I received divided into major catagories, and am working on further refining this info, unfortunately, I have had to work alot more the last couple of weeks than what I was scheduled, but should hopefully have something to present to the net by the end of this week for further proofing, refining, or whatever. Thanks for your assistance in this project, Murray Pickard aka photo@ksu.ksu.edu From cozymys@aol.com Sun Jun 12 23:41:15 EDT 1994 Article: 34522 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.ans.net!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!search01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: cozymys@aol.com (CozyMys) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Companion plants for daylillies Date: 5 Jun 1994 23:17:06 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 58 Sender: news@search01.news.aol.com Message-ID: <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: search01.news.aol.com Status: O X-Status: I have a slope about 80 feet long x 20-30 feet wide planted in clumps of daylillies. I try to stick to primary colors in daylilly flowers, except many times the catalog picture and the flower I get differ. There a lot of orangey reds, yellows, whatever. The length of bloom is good, at the cost of a great display at any given time. I try to make it look like a hill of wildflowers, though I shamelessly resort to anything that fits the color scheme for that period if it is compelling enough. Early spring the bulbs planted under the daylillies - daffodils predominate - turn the hill yellow and white with touches of blue, then the tulips, phlox, and peonies turn it blue and white, then all pink shows. By now the daylilly foliage is showing, but no flowers. When the daylillies bloom it moves into it's glory. By fall, the blackeyed susans and helianthus are past, but a few late daylillies show until they're killed by frost. All that shows then are the masses of pale pink and of white mums. I like the dramatic change after such saturated color. I have shorter plants in the front: variegated ajuga, white creeping phlox, baby's breath, along with mini-daylillies (Stella Doro for example). Anyway, I'm always looking for companion plants, especially for the daylilly dominated time early summer to killing frost. The daylillies come on so strong everything else seems to disappear. I need contrast in color and form of plant. To my sorrow, I tried Queen Anne's Lace and white yarrow. They looked great, but the hill is covered in the stuff. The only way to keep it down is to weed-whack it. (rather labor intensive, and I dare not let anyone else do it or I lose this year's growth of desired plants. I loved the white, wild-looking plants. But boy am I paying for it. Any suggestions for additions to my hill would be appreciated Susan From cathyb@mvx.grc.nia.nih.gov Sun Jun 12 23:41:54 EDT 1994 Article: 34893 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.dell.com!tadpole.com!uunet!nih-csl!mvx.grc.nia.nih.gov!CATHYB From: cathyb@mvx.grc.nia.nih.gov Subject: Re: Companion plants for daylillies Message-ID: <1994Jun9.025319.5347@alw.nih.gov> Sender: postman@alw.nih.gov (AMDS Postmaster) Reply-To: cathyb@mvx.grc.nia.nih.gov Organization: GRC, NIA, NIH, Baltimore, MD, USA References: <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 02:53:19 GMT Lines: 27 Status: O X-Status: In article <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com>, cozymys@aol.com (CozyMys) writes: >Anyway, I'm always looking for companion plants, especially for the >daylilly >dominated time early summer to killing frost. The daylillies come on >so strong >everything else seems to disappear. I need contrast in color and >form of >plant. > >Any suggestions for additions to my hill would be appreciated > > Susan Dear Susan, Your garden sounds wonderful already! I also have a large slope I would like to (someday) be planted similar to yours. In the meantime, I have smaller beds of daylilies, & when I belonged to the American Hemerocallis Society, I toured some great gardens so I have a suggestion or two from what I remember seeing. You might try liatrus - this was very effective. What I tend to focus on is constrasting foliage rather than simultaneous blooming plants. I really like lamb's ears (stachys lanata) or most any other gray foliage plant with daylilies. It has the same lightening effect as white flowers. Also, try blue salvia or veronica. Good Luck! Cathy, Central Maryland, Zone 7 From kls+@osu.edu Sun Jun 12 23:42:04 EDT 1994 Article: 34954 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu!geokls!kls+ Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Companion plants for daylillies Message-ID: From: kls+@osu.edu (Ken Shellberg) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 17:05:09 GMT References: <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Jun9.025319.5347@alw.nih.gov> Organization: Ohio State University - Geological Sciences Nntp-Posting-Host: geokls.mps.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #1] Lines: 7 Status: O X-Status: I have been considering this same problem and tentatively plan to interplant perennial geraniums with the daylilies, maybe 'Johnson's Blue' or 'Claridge Druce,' and see what that looks like. Cheers from Columbus, Ohio, zone 5. -- Ken From u4imcehb@apollo.wes.army.mil Sun Jun 12 23:42:10 EDT 1994 Article: 34943 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!nntp.msstate.edu!nntp.wes.army.mil!u4imcehb From: u4imcehb@apollo.wes.army.mil (Ernest Boswell) Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Re: Companion plants for daylillies Date: 9 Jun 1994 16:05:30 GMT Organization: DoD High Performance Computing Center Lines: 14 Message-ID: <2t7eka$d9i@Joanna.Wes.Army.Mil> References: <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Jun9.025319.5347@alw.nih.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: apollo.wes.army.mil X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Status: O X-Status: I use, among others, Purple Coneflower and Spiderwort. Now I know the Spiderwort is considered a "ditch" plant by many, and the blooms close up fairly early, but I love the purple flowers mixed in with the daylily colors. You can also get a white coneflower, but I haven't had much success with those (yet) - last year was my first year with those. -- Harry Boswell u4imcehb@apollo.wes.army.mil Computer Scientist Information Technology Laboratory U.S. Army Corps of Engineers "select std_disclaimer from opinions_not_shared_by_employer" From rascal@netcom.com Sun Jun 12 23:42:19 EDT 1994 Article: 35137 of rec.gardens Newsgroups: rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!rascal From: rascal@netcom.com (David K. Kim) Subject: Re: Companion plants for daylillies Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <2su4fi$o76@search01.news.aol.com> <1994Jun9.025319.5347@alw.nih.gov> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 19:54:29 GMT Lines: 10 Status: O X-Status: In southern California, landscapers plant agapanthus with the daylillies. Since they both bloom in the summer time, the show is quite pleasing. The big yellow daylillies contrast well with the mostly sky blue (some white) umbled flowers of the agapanthus (both miniatures and standard sizes). I don't think agapanthus is cold hardy though (USDA zone 7 and up?). Dave in Redondo Beach, CA. From BMRHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Sun Jun 12 23:42:53 EDT 1994 Article: 34524 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!jobone!ukma!news.cuny.edu!bmrhc From: Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Organic certification: Info? Date: Sun, 5 Jun 1994 23:31:28 EDT Organization: City University of New York/University Computer Center Lines: 18 Message-ID: <94156.233128BMRHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: cunyvm.cuny.edu Disclaimer: Author bears full responsibility for this post Status: O X-Status: I am interested in the location of any material on Organic Gardening Certification. I have been gardening using NO perticides and NO chemical fertilizers (Only Compost). Any information, FTP sites, news groups, books or magazines would be greatly appreciated. I farm approx. 2.5 acres, and would like to expand. Thanks! - Personal Responses Welcomed! - Benjamin ======================================================================== == The mind ought sometimes be diverted, that it may return the ======== ============ better to thinking. ======================================= ==/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/›/› - Phaedrus /›/›/›== ------------------------------------------------------------------------ -=<>=- <><><><><><><><><>BMRHC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU<><><><><><><><><> -=<>=- ======================================================================== From info-now@regulus.com Mon Jun 13 00:02:27 EDT 1994 Article: 35187 of rec.gardens Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!news.mid.net!usenet From: Lee Richards Newsgroups: rec.gardens Subject: Home Study Garden Design (Seminar) Date: 12 Jun 1994 19:31:20 GMT Organization: Regulus Communications Lines: 11 Distribution: world Message-ID: <2tfnq8$kvg@noc1.mid.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.35.171.239 X-Newsreader: Nuntius Version 1.2 X-XXDate: Sun, 12 Jun 1994 13:36:37 GMT Status: O X-Status: We have developed a home-study course that will teach you how to design your home landscape (including irrigation system). The course is taught by a professional Landscape Architect and developer of university independent study program. No major drawing skills required. Text, drawing materials (paper, pencils, scales etc.) furnished (or optional) and design evaluation provided in course. Access to standard fax machine will be very useful, too. For complete details, request Seminar HLD101 from info-now@regulus.com.