From destry@netcom.com Fri Mar 10 10:38:03 EST 1995
Article: 55333 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!csus.edu!netcom.com!destry
From: destry@netcom.com (Fellwalker)
Subject: Re: rec.gardens.organic...Opinions??
Message-ID: <destryD49qqA.2K2@netcom.com>
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
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Date: Sun, 19 Feb 1995 22:34:58 GMT
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Sender: destry@netcom13.netcom.com

KAI202 (kai202@aol.com) wrote:
: I vote for organic gardening tips and help to stay on this list.  We need
: to inform people of the great benefits of organic gardening.

    There's no reason organic gardening tips and help _wouldn't_ stay on 
this newsgroup if there  was an organic gardening newsgroup. _Every_ 
organic gardener who has emailed me about the proposed rec.gardens. 
whatever organic group...(EVERY one, and I've got about 50 saved messages 
now) says they would continue to read and post to rec.gardens but would 
really appreciate somewhere to talk about organic methods _in detail_ 
with other orgainc gardeners.

--Max
-- 
--  ...with rings on her fingers and bells on her toes... <destry@netcom.com>


From ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Tue May 16 11:21:49 EDT 1995
Article: 69902 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!ar367
From: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews)
Subject: Pesticide info
Message-ID: <D8Mtqn.588@freenet.carleton.ca>
Sender: ar367@freenet3.carleton.ca (Ken Toews)
Reply-To: ar367@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Ken Toews)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 18:23:10 GMT
Lines: 306

Thank you for using the People against addicted lawns fax back
service, this document is faxback.hea.
If you would like a complete bibliography ask for faxback.bib
If you would like a faxback on how to care for your lawn
organically ask for faxback.lwn

DISTRIBUTED BY P.A.A.L.S.
People Against Addicted Lawns
For this and more information in a booklet form send five dollars
to  P.O.Box 29093 3500 Fallowfield road Nepean Ontario
K2J 4A9 FAX PHONE 825-4034 EMAIL CONTACT ar367@freenet.carelton.ca
******************************************************************
     There have been over 200 independent studies that link 2,4-D
with various diseases. 2,4-D is found in 1,500 over the counter
weed killers.  The National Cancer Institute has linked pesticide
exposures to lymphatic cancers. Their study was based on 948
farmers who had cancer and an equal number who did not. Exposed
individuals were 600% more likely to contract cancer than people
who did not contact the pesticide. Farmers who used protective
equipment, such as respirators, gloves, and a change of clothing
after contact were able to reduce the risk by only 20%.
     Hazleton laboratories found that 10% of rats exposed to 2,4-D
developed brain tumours. 2,4-D is contaminated with dioxins during
manufacture. Dioxins are the most potent poison known to man. 
     The Veterans Legal Services Project of Washington D.C.
reviewed 285 different published studies of human exposure to
phenoxy herbicides and dioxins. They found that they caused
specific cancers, skin and liver disorders, reproductive and
developmental disorders, low sperm counts, spontaneous abortions in
the wives of the affected individuals, increased birth defects,
including skin, nerve, heart, kidney, and cleft lips and palate.
The study went on to say there was "sound scientific evidence" of
an association between the 2-4,D and a whole host of other diseases
including cancer of the kidney, testicles, stomach, colon,
prostate, liver, psychological effects, immune system disorders,
gastrointestinal ulcers, and altered lipid metabolism.
     Another common chemical used for lawn care is M.C.P.A. (4-
CHLOR-2METHYLPHENOXY ACIDIC ACID). This is an organic acid that is
closely related to 2,4-D.

PESTICIDES HARM CHILDREN
LEUKAEMIA

     A parents use of pesticides around the home can increase a
childs' risk of developing leukaemia.  A 1993 study looked at 123
pairs of families, one family with a child less than 10 year old
with leukaemia matched with a healthy child of identical age, race,
socioeconomic status and sex.
     Parental exposure to pesticides inside the home, or in the
garden increased the children's risk of leukaemia. Previous studies
have linked pesticides to leukaemia in farmers.  This is the first
study showing a link between household pesticides and leukaemia in
children.BRAIN CANCERS
     The incidence of childhood brain cancers has increased 47%
between 1973 and 1988. The cause of brain cancer is unknown. It is
usually fatal. The average time between diagnosis and death is nine
months. 
     A 1993 study of brain cancer in Missouri children shows an
associations between brain cancer and pesticides. The products
included flea strips, collars, spray bombs, and the spraying of
yards for weeds.    This study examined 45 Missouri children with
brain cancer plus 2 control groups. Control group 1 was 85 healthy
friends of the cancer stricken children and Control group 2 was 108
children with other types of cancers.
     What distinguished the families with brain cancer was their
pesticide use. They used pesticides in their homes more often than
did families whose children did not develop brain tumours. The
study found 15 statistically significant associations between
pesticide use and childhood brain cancer. 

METABOLIC DISORDERS
     Pesticides can be eaten on food or absorbed through the skin.
Some interfere with the body's ability to use vitamin B-6. Vitamin
B-6 deficiency interferes with essential fatty acid metabolism. It
also has neurological effects ranging from epileptic seizures to a
feeling of pins and needles in the extremities.

MENTAL DISORDERS
     The American Journal of Psychiatry has reported three clinical
studies of patients who suffer from panic attacks as a result of
exposure to pesticides.  Panic attacks are a medically defined
condition involving: confusion, disorientation, cold sweats,
palpitations of the heart, difficulty breathing, tremors, fatigue,
muscular cramps, and chest tightness. 
     The panic attacks became debilitating. These attacks were
brought on by the organic solvents in pesticides and were not dose
related. These are examples of ecological illness, like an allergic
reaction, to the presence of exotic synthetic chemicals in the
environment. If exposure to synthetic chemicals increases, more
such medical problems must be anticipated.

CHEMICAL SENSITIVITY
     15% of North Americans experience some form of increased
allergic sensitivity to chemicals or the environment. This
phenomena is increasing in occurrence and severity. Chemically
sensitive individuals are victims of the modern Industrial
environment. The best treatment is avoiding the use of unnatural
chemical agents in and around your home. Fortunately allergic
reactions to dandelion pollen are extremely rare. The size of the
dandelion pollen makes it unlikely to be a source of allergic
reaction.
IMMUNE SYSTEM DISORDERS

     There is a large and convincing body of evidence showing that
pesticides harm the immune system. Pesticide exposure is linked to
a variety of immune system disorders including suppressed T cell
activity, T cells are a particular kind of cell that circulates in
the blood and fights off bacteria,viruses, and cancer cells. The
incidence of immune system disorders is increasing in the general
public.
     It is noteworthy that the same rare cancers affect three
divergent groups; Farmers who have been exposed to pesticides,
patients with AIDS, and people who have had organ transplants who
are then given drugs to suppress their immune system. 

PESTICIDE USE IS RELATED TO BREAST CANCER
     Scientists first found DDT in human breast milk in 1951. DDT
like many pesticides are more fat soluble than water soluble. 
Because of this they enter the body and build up in the fatty
tissues. In 1975 the Environmental protection Agency tested human
milk for pesticides. 99% of the samples contained DDT and PCBs.
These substances are carcinogens in humans.
     A 1982 study of human milk found that 75% contained the
following man made chemicals; methylene chloride, 1,1,1-
trichloroethane, carbon tetrachloride, benzaldehyde, and acetone. 
     Breast cancer appears to be caused by environmental causes
more than genetics. Women in Japan have one quarter the incidence
of breast cancer until they move to North America, then the levels
rise to North American levels. Cancer experts claim that 30% of
breast cancers can be attributed to social conditions. Birth order
(younger is better), exercise (more is better), animal fats (less
is better), green vegetable (more is better). But what of the other
70% of Breast Cancers?
     Recent conditions in Israel have shown that pesticides may be
an important cause of breast cancer.    Measurement of three
pesticides in  human milk in Israel in the 1970's revealed levels
of contamination of Lindane, alpha-B.H.C. and DDE in concentrations
1000 times higher than in Canada. (DDE is formed when DDT breaks
down and is more dangerous than DDT.) 
     In 1978 public protests brought about a ban of these
pesticides. There was a rapid reduction in all these contaminants.
By 1980 breast milk contamination had dropped by 90% or more among
Israeli women. During this unusual rise and fall of pesticide
residue in human milk there was a corresponding rise and fall of
breast cancer in young Israeli women. The scientists who studied
pesticides and breast cancer in Israel made the important
observation that pesticides mimic or interfere with estrogen
metabolism. Corroborating this view is a study of American women
that shows that women with elevated levels of pesticides have a
higher levels of breast cancer than a control group without
elevated level of these toxins. Research is showing that many
synthetic pesticides, mimic or interfere  with estrogen and other
sex hormones in wildlife and humans.
PETS ARE AT RISK FROM PESTICIDES

     According to the Journal of the National Cancer Institute dog
owners who spray or dust their lawns with weed killers containing
2,4-D are getting cancer at twice the rate of other dogs. Dogs walk
across or roll in herbicide treated lawns and then ingest toxic
chemicals when they lick their coats and paws. Naturally, children
who play on treated lawns will also come in contact with the
chemicals. Dogs and children will also track chemicals indoors
where prolonged exposure will occur. 
     People spread 2,4-D around homes and gardens to kill broad
leaf weeds, crabgrass, and dandelions. Farmers use it on tomatoes
to cause all fruit to ripen at the same time for machine
harvesting, and utility companies use it to clear brush around
roads and under hydro lines. It is used heavily on lawns, corn, and
rice to kill weeds. From 1962 to 1971 it was spread as Agent Orange
by U.S. Airmen. Thousands have filed lawsuits against the U.S.
government and companies that supplied Agent Orange because of
cancers and birth defects in their children. Vets who handled Agent
Orange are 70% more likely to father children with birth defects
than vets who did not handle Agent Orange. 
     Farmers who use this dangerous substance are getting the same
type of cancer ( Non Hodgkin's Lymphomas ) as dogs who roll around
on herbicide treated lawns. The occurrence of such cancers has been
slowly rising  for several decades tracking the emergence of the
modern lifestyle in which the dandelion free lawn has come to
symbolize the good life.

PESTICIDE USE IS GROWING

     Between 1950 and 1980 there has been a twelve fold increase in
the use of pesticides. On corn the increase in the use of
insecticides has been a thousand fold. Today the fastest growing
area of pesticide use is lawn care. North Americans spend almost
800 million dollars spreading 75,000,000 pounds of pesticide on
their lawns every year. The industry is growing at 9% a year,
doubling in size every 8 years.
     The growth of pesticide use has not reduced crop losses.
Between 1950 and 1980 with a twelve fold increase in pesticide use
crop losses to insects have increased from 7% to 13%. Clearly
insecticides are not effective. Scientific evidence only indicates
that wide spread use of any insecticide leads to an eventual
increase in the population of the target population. This is
probably due to the fact that pesticides kill the predators and
after an initial population decrease, the target population become
immune.
     Despite proof that in the long term pesticides do not work
more than one billion pounds of pesticides, 660 million pounds of
herbicides, 132 million pounds of fungicides, 268 million pounds of
insecticides, and 70 million pounds of related chemicals are used
each year in North America alone. There are roughly four pounds of
pesticides spread for each man women and child in North America
each year.A direct link between the increase in the use of pesticides
and the increase in cancers is difficult to prove. Even though the
increases mirror each other, this is not proof that the rise of
cancers is caused by a rise in the use of pesticides.
. 
CANCER TYPE         PERCENTAGE CHANGE IN INCIDENCE
1950-1987
Colon                    +24.9%    Skin                     +283% 
Larynx                   +57.3%    Breast                   +258% 
Testicles                +97.3%    Prostate                 +97%
Bladder                  +52.5%    Kidney                   +101% 
Childhood (all types)    +28.4%    Lung                     +257% 
Leukaemia                +2.6%     lymphoma                 +153% 
Average                  +42%

PESTICIDES AND IMMUNITY

     Between 1950 and 1980 nearly 500 important insect pests have
developed genetic resistance to common pesticides. It is estimated
that by the year 2000 virtually all major insect pests will show
some form of genetic resistance. In addition to insects, genetic
resistance has developed in 80 species of weeds treated with weed
killers, 70 species of fungus treated with fungicide, and 10
species of rats treated with rat poisons. Genetic resistance cannot
be stopped, it is the nature of all species. Unfortunately this is
a double edged sword. A fundamental requirement of genetic change
is the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the
population.
     A recent study in the British Medical Journal concluded that
men in western countries today have sperm counts less than half as
high as their grandfathers had at the same age. In addition the
increase in cancer of the testicles has increased 4 fold in the
last 40 years; and various birth defects to the male reproductive
system have increased 4 fold during the same time period. As we
pointed out earlier a fundamental requirement of genetic change is
the death or failure to reproduce in a majority of the population.
This process is clearly under way. The only question is what is
causing this change?
CHEMICALS THAT MIMIC NATURAL ESTROGENS
     Evidence is mounting that these changes are caused by exposure
of males very early in life to chemicals that act like estrogens.
Synthetic chemicals that mimic estrogens include contraceptives,
D.E.S. which was fed to beef cattle from the 50's to the 70's, and
pesticides.  We now live in an environment that can be viewed as a
virtual sea of estrogens. 
     Chlorinated hydrocarbons, ie pesticides, mimic hormones and
interfere with the endocrine system of wildlife and humans. Studies
link them to breast cancer in women and testicular cancer in their
sons. Thus breast cancer, testicular cancer, and defects in the
male reproductive system including diminished sperm count all seem
linked. PESTICIDES POSE A THREAT TO OUR WATER

     Since 1980 researchers have found agricultural chemicals in
ground water supplies that serve hundreds of millions of people.
Recent studies in Eastern Ontario have shown that over 75% of wells
are polluted with a herbicide used on corn. Residents in Iowa; 27%
of which drink water contaminated with pesticides have a higher
than normal risk of developing leukaemia, lymphoma and other
cancers. 
     Water quality in our rivers is increasing on a number of
fronts, for instance bacterial and lead levels are decreasing
because of a ban on leaded gasoline and improved sewage treatment.
Unfortunately increased usage of fertilizer on suburban lawns is
causing other problems.  One study looked at 24 measures of water
quality taken at 380 water sampling stations across the country
>from  1974-1981. 
     Of the 34 chemicals widely used by the lawn care industry 35%
were detected in ground water. Of these:
62% are toxic to fish.             33% are toxic to bees/birds.
35% Cause birth defects.           21% interfere with reproduction.
39% cause liver damage.            59% are neurotoxins.          
42% cause kidney damage            85% induce chem. sensitivity  
     
THE LAWN CARE INDUSTRY IS UNREGULATED

     The business is largely unregulated. Investigations have found
that the lawn care industry regularly makes false claims such as:
*Our products are non toxic, they readily biodegrade
*2,4-D will not make you sick unless you lay in it for a few days
*The safety issue is blown out of proportion.
*It is safe to use, will not harm birds, or beneficial insects.
*lawn care products are safe for the environment.
     Of the 34 major lawn care chemicals now in use, not one has
been fully tested.  Lawn care companies in Ontario are required by
law to tell employees what they are spraying. You can ask to see
these documents. In all commercial lawn poisons there is an active
ingredient and an inert ingredient. The inert ingredients can be a
variety of carcinogenic substances. Often these substances are more
dangerous than the active ingredient used to kill weeds. 
     Companies that treat hazardous waste are allowed to "recycle"
hazardous waste into lawn care products. It is unclear which is
more dangerous the active pesticide ingredient or the "recycled"
hazardous waste.


For information on what you can do ask for faxback.act
--
Email From:        |   Support the Sea Sheperd Conservation Society
Ken Toews          |   Email nvoth@igc.apc.org to subscribe to listserv
Nepean Ontario     |   SSCS P.O. Box 48446 Vancouver BC V7X 1A2
Canada              >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WHALES    FOREVER<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


From wcgreen@cris.com Wed May 17 23:39:51 EDT 1995
Article: 70123 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!warp.cris.com!usenet
From: wcgreen@cris.com (Wendy Chatley Green)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Garden catalogues mentioned in Forbes magazine
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 01:17:04 -0400
Organization: Concentric Research Corporation	
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <GROklya39xDG079yn@cris.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: viking-fddi.cris.com

	The current issue of Forbes (22 May, 1995) has an article on the
gardening business ("Ah, the sweet smell of manure!", page 84).  It 
discusses profit margins, trends, books, magazines and even mentions 
Michigan Bulb without using a single cuss word (more than many can do.)
			    
Wendy Chatley Green     "There is much pleasure to be gained
wcgreen@cris.com                from useless knowledge."
Americus, GA                            Bertrand Russell



From eaplatt@also.hooked.net Wed May 17 23:47:00 EDT 1995
Article: 69775 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!its.hooked.net!also.hooked.net!not-for-mail
From: eaplatt@also.hooked.net (Elizabeth Platt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Snails-Any Natural Preditors?
Date: 14 May 1995 10:29:33 -0700
Organization: Hooked
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Message-ID: <3p5elt$2e6@also.hooked.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: also.hooked.net



dmartin@cdmas.crc.mcw.edu (Don Martinson ) wrote:

Geese, ducks, chickens, etc., will gobble up snails.  Problem 
is, they'll happily peck your garden to pieces, too!  Rats and 
mice also fancy snails--and your veggies--and are another good 
reason to keep them out of your yard.  Some birds eat snails, 
but I don't know what species. 

I have a lot of salamanders in my garden, and they eat some of 
the smallest slugs; I've seen a few of them in the process of 
devouring slugs.  Don't know if they'll also eat the tiniest 
snails, but I believe they will eat snail EGGS, which is a 
plus!  

Elizabeth
eaplatt@hooked.com

>
>Have you tried shallow saucers of beer (NO, really!)? 
>It works for  slugs.  They are attracted to it, crawl 
>in and drown.
>
>Don Martinson
>dmartin@cdmas.crc.mcw.edu



From eaplatt@also.hooked.net Wed May 17 23:47:53 EDT 1995
Article: 69775 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.sprintlink.net!its.hooked.net!also.hooked.net!not-for-mail
From: eaplatt@also.hooked.net (Elizabeth Platt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Snails-Any Natural Preditors?
Date: 14 May 1995 10:29:33 -0700
Organization: Hooked
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3p5elt$2e6@also.hooked.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: also.hooked.net



dmartin@cdmas.crc.mcw.edu (Don Martinson ) wrote:

Geese, ducks, chickens, etc., will gobble up snails.  Problem 
is, they'll happily peck your garden to pieces, too!  Rats and 
mice also fancy snails--and your veggies--and are another good 
reason to keep them out of your yard.  Some birds eat snails, 
but I don't know what species. 

I have a lot of salamanders in my garden, and they eat some of 
the smallest slugs; I've seen a few of them in the process of 
devouring slugs.  Don't know if they'll also eat the tiniest 
snails, but I believe they will eat snail EGGS, which is a 
plus!  

Elizabeth
eaplatt@hooked.com

>
>Have you tried shallow saucers of beer (NO, really!)? 
>It works for  slugs.  They are attracted to it, crawl 
>in and drown.
>
>Don Martinson
>dmartin@cdmas.crc.mcw.edu



From barryg@slip.net Wed May 17 23:48:21 EDT 1995
Article: 69822 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!slip.net!usenet
From: barryg@slip.net (Barry Glick)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: The Cyber-Plantsman-  New site on theWWW
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:59:17 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net
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Message-ID: <3ovm68$2k4@slip-1.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chisp32.slip.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46

The first issue of the Cyber-Plantsman is up and running at the
Virtual Mirror on the WWW. The URL is
http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/cyberplt.htm

We want the CP to be an invaluable source for the dissemination of
information for serious gardeners, botanists and horticulturists.

All ideas, contributions, suggestions and constructive critism are 
welcome and encouraged.

There is a mail form link in the pages, so please let us know what you
think.

Happy Gardening,
Barry Glick Editor
Robert Stewart Publisher



From barryg@slip.net Wed May 17 23:50:16 EDT 1995
Article: 69822 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!slip.net!usenet
From: barryg@slip.net (Barry Glick)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: The Cyber-Plantsman-  New site on theWWW
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:59:17 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3ovm68$2k4@slip-1.slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: chisp32.slip.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.46

The first issue of the Cyber-Plantsman is up and running at the
Virtual Mirror on the WWW. The URL is
http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/cyberplt.htm

We want the CP to be an invaluable source for the dissemination of
information for serious gardeners, botanists and horticulturists.

All ideas, contributions, suggestions and constructive critism are 
welcome and encouraged.

There is a mail form link in the pages, so please let us know what you
think.

Happy Gardening,
Barry Glick Editor
Robert Stewart Publisher



From tony@nexus.yorku.ca Wed May 17 23:54:13 EDT 1995
Article: 69980 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!nexus.yorku.ca!tony
From: tony@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Vermicomposting
Date: 16 May 1995 12:34:52 GMT
Organization: York University, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3pa65c$n72@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca>
References: <D8HnwH.79D@freenet.carleton.ca> <3p7vs9$5pq@baccus.itl.saic.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nexus.yorku.ca

Robert Bowd   > I would like to find out about vermicomposting.
              > I am a novice.  Can you help?
Scott Caneday > ..  "Worms Eat My Garbage" ..

Here's a summary, based partly on reading and partly on my first year of
experience ..
(Note: this refers to _indoor_ vermicomposing in a _container_.)

* Container : Must be opaque since worms avoid light; typically
    a "blue box" (i.e. recycling plastic bin) with a lid.  Drill
    several dozen 3/8" holes in lid for venting.
* Bedding   : Shredded newpaper and light fine potting soil,
    typically 3:1 fluffed-up newspaper : potting soil by volume; must be
    moist, but not sopping wet; worms will produce water as part
    of digestion of feed.
* Worms     : Must be "redworms".
* Feed      : Must be vegetarian, no meat or fats.  Should be
    chopped finely (worms don't have teeth).  I put all my worm
    feed through a blender, then a sieve, and then dry it to a
    "semi-moist meatloaf" consistency in the oven.  Bury the
    feed deeply in the bedding.  Don't worry about spreading it
    around, put it all in one place and the worms will find it.
    Rotate the feeding position around the bin.  In addition to
    vegetarian (vegs. and fruit waste), feed them tea bags and
    and coffee filters.
* pH        : Don't let bedding get too acidic.  Add a little
    powdered limestone ( I guess ground-up Tums would do )
    occasionally.  [ Actually I have never had to do this.  I
    test my worm bedding with pH test paper and it is always
    slightly alkaline.  ??? ]
* Problems  :
  (1)  Little flying insects.  These may be fruit flies, or
       another insect (fungus gnats ?) mistaken for fruit
       flies.  Control with one of those plasic strips that give
       off insecticide vapour.  [ They come with an adustable
       carboard sleeve.  Mine got soft in the moist enviroment
       so I put the vaporising strip in a plasic bottle with a
       few holes "drilled" in it with a soldering iron. ]
  (2)  Worms crawling up walls of bin.  Put them back gently using
       a toothpick.  Leave lid off for a while to dry out excess
       moisture.  Light will drive worms back "underground".
* Harvesting compost :
    Have fresh bedding prepared beforehand.  I dump contents out
    onto floor and then sieve out the worms and large lumps of
    bedding from the compost.  The harvested compost will
    contain worm eggs.  You may not want worms in your indoor
    pots, so sterilise by baking in oven.

--
tony@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.




From wordset@londonci.demon.co.uk Wed May 17 23:54:43 EDT 1995
Article: 69579 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!demon!londonci.demon.co.uk!wordset
From: Wordset <wordset@londonci.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Garden Web sites?
Date: 13 May 1995 15:11:51 +0100
Organization: London Calling Internet
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X-Posting-Host: londonci.demon.co.uk

Hi,

Anyone know of any good gardening/garden sites (pref in UK)
other than Kew and Time Life? Either info re gardening or
interesting sites of botanical gardens etc.

Thanks.

David Parry

--------------------------------------------- 
wordset:                   :typeset by design
---------------------------------------------
  e.g.  http://www.demon.co.uk/london-calling
---------------------------------------------


From bobcurt@aol.com Wed May 17 23:55:36 EDT 1995
Article: 69619 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!tcsi.tcs.com!uunet!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: bobcurt@aol.com (Bobcurt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Garden Web sites?
Date: 13 May 1995 13:50:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 9
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3p2rho$kho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <800372760snz@londonci.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: bobcurt@aol.com (Bobcurt)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

here are some garden web sites that I have collected:

http://sashimi.wwa.com:80/mirror/garden/patch.htm  (a garden site)
http://ptolemy.eecs.berkeley.edu/~sitea/interests.html (a garden site)
http://www.timeinc.com/vg/welcome/welcome.html (a garden site)
http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/cyberplt.html (gardens)
http://www.biddeford.com/~dtaylor/ww/ww1.html  (raspberries)

Bob Hoeckele


From fletcher@prairienet.org Wed May 17 23:57:46 EDT 1995
Article: 69630 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!fletcher
From: fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Garden Web sites?
Date: 13 May 1995 19:05:41 GMT
Organization: Prairienet, the East-Central Illinois Free-Net
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3p2vu5$qjr@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <800372760snz@londonci.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Wordset (wordset@londonci.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Hi,

: Anyone know of any good gardening/garden sites (pref in UK)
: other than Kew and Time Life? Either info re gardening or
: interesting sites of botanical gardens etc.

Check out The Garden Gate and The Garden Spider's Web (URLs in my sig).  
They'll keep you busy for a bit, I think ;-)

Drop me a note if you drop by!

Karen Fletcher                                     fletcher@prairienet.org
==========================================================================
The Garden Gate            http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/homepage.htm
The Garden Gate at SunSITE  http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
The Garden Spider's Web    http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/spdrsweb.htm



From gx297@cleveland.Freenet.Edu Wed May 17 23:57:57 EDT 1995
Article: 69599 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!cleveland.Freenet.Edu!gx297
From: gx297@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Cathy Czapla)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Q: heirloom societies ?
Date: 13 May 1995 13:48:20 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <3p2db4$h26@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kanga.ins.cwru.edu


Try the Seed Saver Exchange at 3076 North Winn Rd., Decorah, IA
52101.  A color brochure describing the Exchange is available for 
$1.00.  For the first time, this year they are also offering
a collection of American and Eastern European heirloom vegetable
and flower seeds to the general public: ask for the free
Seed Savers International seed list.

I have been a member for three years now and love the Exchange.
There are quite a few California gardeners involved, too.

Cathy
in central Vermont (zone 3/4)


From ckp@westnet.com Wed May 17 23:58:28 EDT 1995
Article: 69678 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!news.westnet.com!ckp.dialup.cloud9.net!ckp
From: ckp@westnet.com (Christine K. Paustian)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Garden Web sites?
Date: Sat, 13 May 1995 18:58:06 LOCAL
Organization: NetSurf Technologies
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <ckp.922.0102A529@westnet.com>
References: <800372760snz@londonci.demon.co.uk> <3p2vu5$qjr@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> <ckp.920.01008621@westnet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ckp.dialup.cloud9.net
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B final beta #4]


>>: Anyone know of any good gardening/garden sites (pref in UK)
>>: other than Kew and Time Life? Either info re gardening or
>>: interesting sites of botanical gardens etc.

>>Check out The Garden Gate and The Garden Spider's Web (URLs in my sig).  
>>They'll keep you busy for a bit, I think ;-)

There's another new page sponsored by LILAC-01 that features links to Internet 
garden spots that you might find interesting - it includes one to the Garden 
Gate, btw.  :) <URL:http://www.westnet.com/flowers>.

/Christine

    ___________________________________________________________________
 
		 ...%##%%..
	       .%#'' .. ``##.            NetSurf Technologies
	     .%#'  .' ,'.%'`#       1858 Pleasantville Road, #129    :
	   .%#  .'  :  :#  '         Briarcliff Manor, NY  10510   .%
	  .%#'  .'   :  `%#.               .%.                     .%
       ..%#'    :    `.   `%#..         ..%#'%#..             ...%%'
    %.%#'        :     `..   ``%%%###%%''      ```%%%%%##%%%''''
    ___________________________________________________________________
    Christine K. Paustian                               ckp@westnet.com
    914/941-4586                                         ckp@cloud9.net
			   74403.701@compuserve.com



From Jim.Parra@neighbor.com Thu May 18 00:00:08 EDT 1995
Article: 69956 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!tpoint!neighbor.com
From: Jim.Parra@neighbor.com
Subject: RE:Garden Web sites?
Message-ID: <9.48055612.Austin.Family.Net@neighbor.com>
Sender: news@tpoint.net
Organization: Turning Point Information Services
References: <800372760snz@londonci.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 20:52:02 GMT
Lines: 31

Well here my .02 worth of sites
http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/homepage.htm
http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
http://sashimi.wwa.com:80/mirror/garden/patch.htm
http://ptolemy.eecs.berkeley.edu/~sitea/interests.html (a garden site)
http://www.timeinc.com/vg/welcome/welcome.html (a garden site)
http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/cyberplt.html (gardens)
http://www.biddeford.com/~dtaylor/ww/ww1.html  (raspberries)
http://www.olympus.net/gardens/welcome.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
http://cougar.uwaterloo.ca/orchids.html
http://astrpi.difi.unipi.it/Italian_Orchids/Show.html
http://taygeta.oc.nps.navy.mil/aos_culture.html
http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/
http://130.17.2.215/myscans.htm
http://www.fws.gov/endlist.html
http://florawww.eeb.uconn.edu/
http://www.btw.com/
http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
hhtp://www.timeinc.com/vg 
Meerkerk Rhododendron Gardens WWW page at URL-
http://islander.whidbey.net/~kabowers/Meerkerk.html

I have not been to all of these yet.
============================================================================
The Green Sysop                   @-->-->-           Remember green side up!
jim.parra@neighbor.com
                       Jimi Hendrix' modem was a Purple Hayes.
=================== The Neighborhood BBS 512 441-0485 ====================== 




From garylipe@onramp.net Thu May 18 00:01:40 EDT 1995
Article: 69617 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!onramp.net!garylipe
From: garylipe@onramp.net (Gary Lipe)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: CHAT: Alabama Wildflower Information
Date: 13 May 1995 17:50:41 GMT
Organization: People & Contacts
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3p2rhh$qgu@news.onramp.net>
Reply-To: garylipe@onramp.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: turnpike06.onramp.net

The following information is from the AL section of WILDFLOWERS.  Any 
assistance you can provide in correcting or adding to the information will be 
greatly appreciated.  Please send information by Email to garylipe@onramp.net

ALABAMA WILDFLOWERS
GARDENS
· Bellingrath Gardens and Home - AL - 12401 Bellingrath Gardens Rd, Theodore, 
AL 35582, Phone: (334) 973-2217 Fax: (334) 973-0540
· Birmingham Botanical Gardens - 2612 Lane Park Rd, Birmingham, AL 35223, 
Phone: (205) 879-1227 Fax: (205) 879-3751
· Huntsville Botanic Gardens - 4747 Bob Wallace Ave, Huntsville, AL 35805, 
Phone: (205) 830-4447 Fax: (205) 830-5314
· Mobile Botanical Gardens - PO Box 8382, Mobile, AL 36608, Phone: (205) 
342-0555
· Noccalula Falls Botanical Gardens - PO Box 267, Gadsen, AL 35902, Phone: 
(205) 534-7412
· Ruffner Mountain Nature Center - 1214 81st St S., Birmingham, AL 35206, 
Phone: (205) 833-8112
· University of Alabama Arboretum - Pelham Loop Road, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487, 
Phone: (205) 553-3278


ATTRACTIONS & EVENTS


CATALOGS


COURSES


INTERNET RESOURCES
· NEWSGROUPS
· hsv.general (Huntsville)
· Alabama Extension Service Gopher
· Headquartered on the Auburn University campus in Auburn, Alabama, USA, the 
Alabama Cooperative Extension Service (ACES) is responsible for linking the 
university's resources directly to the people through offices in each of 
Alabama's 67 counties.  Ask for document: ANR-623   Behe      Wildflow
ers In Alabama Landscapes
· Alabama News Groups
hsv.general - Huntsville General
· Yahoo - Regional Information:States:Alabama 

CONTACTS
· Alabama Wildflower Society, 240 Ivy Lane, Auburn, AL 36830, (205) 339-2541
· State Travel/Vacation Guide: (800) ALA-PARK or 252-727

Gary Lipe, garylipe@onramp.net
PO BOX 11830, Ft Worth, TX 76110-1830
Visit the WILDFLOWERS page at:
http://rampages.onramp.net/~garylipe/



From admstyping@aol.com Thu May 18 00:03:15 EDT 1995
Article: 69871 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: admstyping@aol.com (Admstyping)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Southern Gardening List
Date: 14 May 1995 17:29:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 6
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3p5sno$bfq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: admstyping@aol.com (Admstyping)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Hi.

Does anyone know of a southern gardening mail list?  If you do, please
respond to my e-mail at admstyping@aol.com.

Thank you, Lydia


From MNJB39A@prodigy.com Thu May 18 00:04:30 EDT 1995
Article: 69935 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!tinman.dev.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!usenet
From: MNJB39A@prodigy.com (Hugh Burns)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Gardening Books
Date: 15 May 1995 01:27:27 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Company  1-800-PRODIGY
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3p6alv$1b0q@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: inugap4.news.prodigy.com
X-Newsreader: Version 1.2

I am interested in gardening books.  I live in Atlanta, and am a weekend 
gardener who loves all plants, especially flowers.  Can anyone give a 
review and/or comparison of Reader's Digest's _A Garden For All Seasons_ 
and Better Homes and Gardens' _Complete Guide to Flower Gardening_?  I've 
seen these books in the stores and would like to know what any of you 
think of them.  Thank you.
Carol Burns



From aprin30978@aol.com Thu May 18 00:04:36 EDT 1995
Article: 70136 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: aprin30978@aol.com (APrin30978)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 16 May 1995 21:54:19 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Reply-To: aprin30978@aol.com (APrin30978)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Readers Digest Guide to Creative Gardening is one of the most interesting,
inspiring and relatively practical books I own.

Try it, I love it.

Ann


From billg@yrkpa.kias.com Thu May 18 00:05:03 EDT 1995
Article: 69953 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!yrkpa.kias.com!usenet
From: billg@yrkpa.kias.com (bill griffith)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Gardening Resources on the Interent - gardfaq.txt [1/1]
Date: 15 May 1995 02:47:00 GMT
Organization: kias
Lines: 333
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Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.14

                                                         Updated 5/14/95

Well this is the second posting of this list. I have made a few corrections 
and added a few sites.

I wish to keep this list up to date with corrections and new info
as it becomes available. I could not have gathered all this info myself. I
would like to thank Karen Fletcher, Georgina Brown, Adam Finkelstein, 
Graeme Roberts, David Wallis, Shelly Johnson, Mike Tyler, Gary Lipe,
Mitchell Owen, Don Harper and Craig Lowery.
I hope I didn't miss anyone.

I would like to send a special thanks to Cheryl Trine for proofing this
document and for posting it on her Web page (GardenNet, under GardenNet's
Guide to Internet Garden Resources).  She also informed me that this list
should be available via anonymous ftp in mid May. I will repost this list 
when that is established with the appropriate directory info. This list is  
also available via email at GardenNet@olympus.net, Subject:Gardening FAQ
with no message.
Thanx a whole heap Cheryl! And may your plants bring you joy and perpetual happiness!

Many of the sites listed have links to other sites listed and not listed. 
I have done my best to check the accuracy of the whole thing and will 
look forward to being corrected on my mistakes. 

I would like to keep the list updated with new sites so please send any 
new site info or info not included in this list to me at billg@yrkpa.
kias.com. I will re-post this list on rec.gardens every month as I get the chance. No guarantees.




mailing lists:
		 hort-l@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu (send sub info to                                         listserv@vtvm1.cc.vt.edu)
		 (ed. note: This is a one way mailing list. You will receive 
		 several messages at the beginning of each month after                            subscribing. The list covers many subjects but
		 concentrates on the state of Virginia.
		 You can receive one message combining all the smaller 
		 messages into one but using the digest command.)
	    
		 gardens@ukcc.uky.edu (send sub info to listserv@ukcc.uky.edu)
		 (ed. note: I subscribed to this list for about a year. It 
		 was not unusual to receive 50+ messages each day.)
	         
                 Daffodil discussion list- send the message subscribe daffodil
                 your name to listserv@mc.edu.
                 
                 Note about mailing lists; you should send a message with the
                 command help in the body to the listserve at the site which                      maintains the mailing list to get a complete list of commands                    (including how to unsubscribe). You should save that message 
                 in a safe place for future reference.
                                 

 WWW:            http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/maillist.htm
                 (ed. note: list of gardening lists)


databases:
 
 Penpages-       
		 telnet to psupen.psu.edu  login as the abbreviation of your                      state (i.e. PA, WA etc....) (ed. note: Has entries about 
		 gardening as well as family, health, parenting and 
		 many other subjects. Has keyword searches and "items added 
		 this week selections".)
 
 Virginia Cooperative Extension Service-
		 gopher to gopher.ext.vt..edu | VCE Subject Matter |
		 (ed. note: There are many subdirectories below this one.
		 My advice is to look around and if you don't find what you 
		 looking for on your first look, try another route. I found 
		 2 files about fruit in one section and 1 about fruit in 
		 another seemingly unrelated section. The keyword search
		 appears to be fairly unreliable. I searched for "tomato" and
		 got "Gloxinia". Virginia Cooperative Extension gopher.
		 Includes environmental issues, pest management, plant fact                       sheets."  Any other opinions would be appreciated.)

 
 Sunsite-                  

  ftpmail:      ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu  (ed. note: unconfirmed)
  WWW:          http://sunsite.unc.edu:80/garden-gate/
		Many archives of various newsgroups and mailing lists.
		FAQ's for many newsgroups related to gardens (rec.gardens!) as 
		well as documents on varied subjects from biological pest 
		control and food preservation etc... As well as guides to 
		Internet resources.
		(ed. note: I had to summarize the info offered at this site
		and looking over the list it is hard to imagine a hard drive 
		which can hold all this info!)


 North Carolina State University-
  WWW:          http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/subjects.html 



Garden Tours:
 
 University of Delaware-
		 http://bluehen.ags.udel.edu/udgarden.html
		 (ed. note: limited info)

	 
Insects:
 WWW:            http://ipm_www.ncsu.edu/insect_notes/insect_notes.html
                 (NCSU Department of Entymology) 


Diseases:
 WWW:            http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/pp/catalog.html
                 (NCSU Plant Pathogens)                 


Bonsai:
 
 anonymous ftp:  bonsai.pass.wayne.edu  cd pub/GIFS/*
		 bonsai.pass.wayne.edu  cd pub/Information/*
		 rtfm.mit.edu  cd pub/usenet/news.answers/bonsai-faq/*

 mailing lists:  bonsai@waynest1.bitnet  (sub to listserv@waynest1.bitnet)
		 bonsai@cms.cc.wayne.edu (sub to listserv@...)

 Usenet:         alt.bonsai
		 rec.arts.bonsai

Chia pets:

 Usenet:         alt.pets.chia


Children's Gardening:

 Gopher:         gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | General Horticulture
		 Information | Children's Gardening


Flowers:
 
 Usenet:         rec.gardens.orchids
		 rec.gardens.roses

Wildflowers:     http://rampages.onramp.net/~garylipe/
                 (Wildflower courses, walks, events and resources.) 


Software reviews:
 
 WWW:            http://www.tcp.ca/Jan95/Gardening.html
		 http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden_gate/ereview.htm


Fruit Growing:   
 
 Gopher:         gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | The Virginia Gardener Extension
		 Publications | Miscellaneous (ed. note: 2 articles)
		 
		 gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | General Horticulture Information |
		 Hort Articles | Fruits and Nuts (ed. note: 1 articles)
		 
 WWW:            http://www.biddeford.com/~dtaylor/ww/ww14a.html
                 (Raspberry faq)               

		 (ed. note: Obviously I need more sites for Fruit Growing.)



Garden Encyclopedia:

 WWW:            http://www.btw.com/garden_archive/toc.html
                 (A searchable index of many garden subjects including tools,
                 pest control, seed starting etc...)                 

		 http://www.timeinc.com/vg (ed.note: boriss@ix.netcom.com
		 says...Time Life's Virtual Garden. It includes a searchable                      plant encyclopedia with about 1200 plants. The encyclopedia                      allows you to select certain criteria you have available and                     suggests the plants that meet it. It also has list of
                 foliage plants and flowering plants and what conditions 
                 each requires. There are also other things there including                       articles from recent issues of Southern Living and Sunset                        Magazines. Takes a little patience to download things
                 because there are generous graphics sprinkled throughout.)                       (ed. note: You have to sign up to access the Gardening
                 Library. I don't know what that entails (i.e. maybe another                      snail mailing list?))
  
Software:
 
 ftp:            rigel.acs.oakland.edu  /Simtel/msdos/database/gardener.zip
                 and seed11.zip


Herbs:
 
 Gopher:         extsparc.agsci.usu.edu | Selected Documents (Utah State
		 Extension) | Fact Sheets | Agriculture | Gardens | Herbs

		 calypso-2.oit.unc.edu | Worlds of SunSITE-by Subject |
		 Sustainable Agriculture Information | Gardening | 
		 Miscellaneous Information on Herbs     

		 gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | General Horticulture Information |
		 Children's Gardening | 4-H Horticulture Publications
		 at Va Tech | Herb Garden   (ed. note: the Internet  
		 Yellow Pages notes this particular directory deals with 
		 "Herbal Variations... play games with and make gifts 
		 out of" herbs...)

	 
 mailing list:   herb@trearn.bitnet (subscription address listserv@trearn.
		 bitnet)


Vegetables:

 Gopher:         gopher.udel.edu | UD Department | AGINFO:College of 
		 Agricultural Sciences | Information by Type of
		 Publication | Fact Sheets | Vegetables


Hydroponics:

 mailing list:   hydro@hawg.stanford.edu  (subscription info to majordomo@
		 hawg.stanford.edu)


Indoor Plants:

 Gopher:         gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | Hort Articles | Indoor Plants
		 (ed. note: 2 articles)

		 gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | Plant Fact Sheets 
		 (ed. note: many more articles)


Master Gardener:
 
 Gopher:         leviathan.tamu.edu | Master Gardener Information
		 (ed. note: boriss@ix.netcom.com says...Internet Master                           Gardener. For problem solving. Categories such as fruits 
		 and nuts, flowering plants, ornamental trees and shrubs.)

 WWW:            http://leviathan.tamu.edu:70


Pest Management:

 Gopher:         gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Entomology
		
	     
Trees:

 Gopher:         gopher.udel.edu | UD Department, Program & College
		 Information Services | AGINFO:College of Agricultural
		 Sciences | AGINFO Plant Database

		 gopher.ext.vt.edu | VCE Subject Matter | Horticulture |
		 Consumer Horticulture | General Horticulture Information |
		 Hort Articles | Woody Ornamentals

 
Chiles:

 mailing list:   listserv@chile.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu 

 WWW:            http://chile.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu:8000/www/chile.html


general info and miscellaneous:
 
 WWW:            http://www.iquest.net/~plantone/
		 (ed. note: Plantasia Garden Co., hydroponics, under                              construction)

		 http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~camoock 
		 (a visual history of one persons gardens)
 
		 http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/~gwr.gwrpage.html
		 (a very good pointer for all sorts of gardening and other info)
		 http://is.rice.edu/~shel/  

		 http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/homepage.htm
		 (The Garden Gate)
 
										                  http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/spdrsweb.htm
		 (The Garden Spiders Web, Internet Resources for
		 Gardeners)
		       
		 http://seidel.ncsa.uiuc.edu/PBM-FAQ/Default.html
		 (Plants by Mail FAQ) (ed. note: Other gardening stuff
		 at Peter and Carla's home page.)

		 http://www.rain.org/~sals.my.html
		 (Organic Farmers home page)

		 http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/others.html
		 (Royal Botanical Gardens, Kew England)

		 http://155.187.10.12/index.html
		 (Australian National Botanical Gardens)

		 http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/tpws.html
		 (Tasmanian Parks and Wildlife Service)

		 http://life.anu.edu.au:80/biodiversity/iopi/iopi.html
		 (International Organization for Plant Information, 
		 Australian National University)

		 http://pluto.taranaki.ac.nz/pukeiti/welcome.html
		 (Pukeiti Rhodedendron Trust, New Zealand)

		 http://www.olympus.net/gardens/welcome.html
		 (GardenNet) (also the home of this list!)	

                 http://www.goshen.edu:80/~kevin/garden/garden.html
                 (The Artist's Garden Exhibit)

                 http://www.cog.brown.edu:80/gardening
                 (Cyndi's Garden catalog list)

                 http://gopher.ag.uiuc.edu/hort/sourcesp.html
                 (Sources)
                 
                 http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort.hil/index.html
                 (North Carolina Coopeative Extension Service)

                 http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/cyberplt.html
                 (The Cyber Plantsman)
                  

 gopher:         gopher://life.anu.edu.au:70/11/biodiversity/

  
 Usenet news:   rec.gardens
                	
 



From ahs@eMall.com Thu May 18 00:13:22 EDT 1995
Article: 69973 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!redstone.interpath.net!news.sprintlink.net!beyond.escape.com!NewsWatcher!user
From: ahs@eMall.com (American Horticultural Society)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens,rec.gardens.orchids,rec.gardens.roses,slac.rec.garden,triangle.gardens
Subject: American Horticultural Society on WWW
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 01:11:08 -0500
Organization: http://eMall.com/garden/
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <ahs-1505950111080001@198.6.71.25>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 198.6.71.25
Xref: bigblue.oit.unc.edu rec.gardens:69973 rec.gardens.orchids:3186 rec.gardens.roses:6564 triangle.gardens:1618

As of Monday, May 1st, the American Horticultural Society can be found on
the Worldwide Web as the resident expert in eMall's new Garden
Marketplace.

The address is:

http://eMall.com/garden/

They are supplying the online leisure gardener with valuable information
on plant selection and research, gardening techniques and garden tours, as
well as offering enrollment at a special online price to prospective new
members.

Founded in 1922, the American Horticultural Society is an educational,
non-profit organization that informs, educates, and inspires people of all
ages to become successful, environmentally responsible gardeners.



For more information, contact:

ahs@eMall.com


From jfair@Direct.CA Thu May 18 00:15:41 EDT 1995
Article: 69896 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!hookup!news.Direct.CA!usenet
From: jfair@Direct.CA (John Fair)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: burdock root
Date: 15 May 1995 16:38:16 GMT
Organization: Internet Direct Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <3p801o$9t5@stud.Direct.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-167.direct.ca
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

Can anyone give me some information on growing burdock root?
Also, the type that grows wild in North America seems to be different 
than the one cultivated in Japan for food. 

Any help would be appreciated.


From rutten@malibu.sfu.ca Thu May 18 00:15:50 EDT 1995
Article: 69884 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!ddsw1!vanbc.wimsey.com!news.bc.net!newsserver.sfu.ca!sfu.ca!rutten
From: rutten@malibu.sfu.ca (Jacqueline Maria Rutten)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Location for Plant /Garden/landscape Pictures?
Date: 15 May 95 18:15:33 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <rutten.800561733@sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rutten@malibu.sfu.ca
Keywords: pictures garden plants

I am looking for a ftp / gopher / whatever site for pictures of plants, 
gardens, landscapes and anything else that has a plant theme.  If anyone
out there knows where I might find such pictures (gif, jpeg, whatever),
PLEASE let me know...

			Thanx



From fletcher@prairienet.org Thu May 18 00:16:04 EDT 1995
Article: 70116 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!fletcher
From: fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Location for Plant /Garden/landscape Pictures?
Date: 17 May 1995 00:53:33 GMT
Organization: Prairienet, the East-Central Illinois Free-Net
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <3pbhed$i33@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <rutten.800561733@sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Jacqueline Maria Rutten (rutten@malibu.sfu.ca) wrote:
: I am looking for a ftp / gopher / whatever site for pictures of plants, 
: gardens, landscapes and anything else that has a plant theme.  If anyone
: out there knows where I might find such pictures (gif, jpeg, whatever),
: PLEASE let me know...

There's a lot out there!  Here are some selected sites:

Texas A&M Extension has an extensive clipart and image collection:
	gopher://leviathan.tamu.edu:70/11s/clipart/fsl

A good collection of woody plants at University of Delaware Botanic Gardens:
	http://bluehen.ags.udel.edu/udgarden.html

Medicinal Herb Garden at University of Washington
	http://www.nnlm.nlm.nih.gov/pnr/uwmhg/index.html

JPEGs of Rhodos at Pukeiti Rhododendron Trust in New Zealand
	http://www.nnlm.nlm.nih.gov/pnr/uwmhg/index.html

Charles Marsh' Electronic Greenhouse at Orchid Net:
	http://metro.turnpike.net/charles/orch-net.html

A collection of JPEGs at the University of Wisconsin:
gopher://wiscinfo.wisc.edu:2070/11/.image/.bot/Angiosperm/Various_flowers

Garden and Landscape Design images from  Monash University, Australia:
	http://www.monash.edu.au/diva/gardens.html

Steven Wolf's library of images arranged by family:
	http://arnica.csustan.edu/myscans.htm

He also have a useful listing on CSU BIOWEB, look down the page under 
'plants':
	http://arnica.csustan.edu/images.html

Hmm, looks like a new web page in the making ;-)

Karen Fletcher                                     fletcher@prairienet.org
==========================================================================
The Garden Gate            http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/homepage.htm
The Garden Gate at SunSITE  http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
The Garden Spider's Web    http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/spdrsweb.htm



From fletcher@prairienet.org Thu May 18 00:18:39 EDT 1995
Article: 70116 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!prairienet.org!fletcher
From: fletcher@prairienet.org (Karen Fletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Location for Plant /Garden/landscape Pictures?
Date: 17 May 1995 00:53:33 GMT
Organization: Prairienet, the East-Central Illinois Free-Net
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <3pbhed$i33@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <rutten.800561733@sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: firefly.prairienet.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Jacqueline Maria Rutten (rutten@malibu.sfu.ca) wrote:
: I am looking for a ftp / gopher / whatever site for pictures of plants, 
: gardens, landscapes and anything else that has a plant theme.  If anyone
: out there knows where I might find such pictures (gif, jpeg, whatever),
: PLEASE let me know...

There's a lot out there!  Here are some selected sites:

Texas A&M Extension has an extensive clipart and image collection:
	gopher://leviathan.tamu.edu:70/11s/clipart/fsl

A good collection of woody plants at University of Delaware Botanic Gardens:
	http://bluehen.ags.udel.edu/udgarden.html

Medicinal Herb Garden at University of Washington
	http://www.nnlm.nlm.nih.gov/pnr/uwmhg/index.html

JPEGs of Rhodos at Pukeiti Rhododendron Trust in New Zealand
	http://www.nnlm.nlm.nih.gov/pnr/uwmhg/index.html

Charles Marsh' Electronic Greenhouse at Orchid Net:
	http://metro.turnpike.net/charles/orch-net.html

A collection of JPEGs at the University of Wisconsin:
gopher://wiscinfo.wisc.edu:2070/11/.image/.bot/Angiosperm/Various_flowers

Garden and Landscape Design images from  Monash University, Australia:
	http://www.monash.edu.au/diva/gardens.html

Steven Wolf's library of images arranged by family:
	http://arnica.csustan.edu/myscans.htm

He also have a useful listing on CSU BIOWEB, look down the page under 
'plants':
	http://arnica.csustan.edu/images.html

Hmm, looks like a new web page in the making ;-)

Karen Fletcher                                     fletcher@prairienet.org
==========================================================================
The Garden Gate            http://www.prairienet.org/ag/garden/homepage.htm
The Garden Gate at SunSITE  http://sunsite.unc.edu/garden-gate/homepage.htm
The Garden Spider's Web    http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/spdrsweb.htm



From cmathew@iadfw.net Fri May 19 00:15:56 EDT 1995
Article: 70270 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!news.iadfw.net!usenet
From: cmathew@iadfw.net (Craig & Joan Mathew)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Southern Gardening List
Date: Wed, 17 May 95 14:24:25 PST
Organization: Internet America
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3pdicb$i3@news.iadfw.net>
References: <3p5sno$bfq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp134.iadfw.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.9

In article <3p5sno$bfq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, admstyping@aol.com says...
>
>Hi.
>
>Does anyone know of a southern gardening mail list?  If you do, please
>respond to my e-mail at admstyping@aol.com.
>
>Thank you, Lydia

Hello Lydia,
  A group of gardeners, many from Texas, met here on the Internet a few 
months ago and started a little group.  It has been focused mostly 
on gardening in the Texas climes during that time; however, we certainly 
encourage participation from anyone, and would welcome any new member to the 
group no matter where you hail from (oops, that's a dirty word here in 
Dallas at the moment!).  After our little group formed we found a list 
server that was idle and got permission to use it:  RES-GARD.  Please feel 
free to come join us!
  To join the listserver, send a mail message to LISTSERV@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU 
with message text as follows:  SUBSCRIBE RES-GARD <your name>
Once you have subscribed, you will receive a confirmation that you have 
been added to the list.  To send messages to the list members, you will use 
the address RES-GARD@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU.  That's all there is to it!

The more the merrier...we welcome all!
Joan

in north Dallas, TX, where my magnolia has started to bloom (to die for -- 
gorgeous!), my lilies are blooming in several brilliant colors, I have 
strawberry plants so big they're ready to burst out of their beds (and 
runners galore!), hollyhocks shooting upwards daily, lettuce in full swing, 
and tomatoes and peppers fixin' to bring forth their bounty...I'm so 
excited...this is my first garden!



From coeli@aol.com Fri May 19 00:16:33 EDT 1995
Article: 70320 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: coeli@aol.com (Coeli)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: good gardening books?
Date: 17 May 1995 22:41:55 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 8
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <3pec5j$r5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <3oef2r$kr4@huey.cadvision.com>
Reply-To: coeli@aol.com (Coeli)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Wyman's Encyclopedia is my Bible. I keep it by my chair. I also take many
journals: Organic Gardening, HOrticulture Mag, AM Hort Soc; PA Hort Soc;
Fine Gardening and have just joined the Royal Hort Soc to get their
journal.
I find specialized books best. I like the ones I get from the Brooklyn
Botanical GArden. I have a very good library including the material from
the Master Gardener courses. You can get good material on turf at your
extension office at the county bldg.


From troutman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Fri May 19 00:17:20 EDT 1995
Article: 70442 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!troutman
From: Leslie Troutman <troutman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: **** Periodic posting of Keywords ****
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 12:42:36 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <Pine.DYN.3.91.950518124127.14873A-100000@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Periodic posting of keywords.  Revised 5/11/95

Please use the following keywords at the beginning of your subject line 
when posting to rec.gardens (if you so desire! :).

CHAT	for "how's your garden doing, what's happening in your
		part of the world," and discussions like this.
EDIB	for edible plants
GH	for greenhouses and indoor gardening
HERB	for herbs (ornamental & edible!)
LAWN	for lawn and pasture questions
*MISC	ACK! I can't figure out which keyword to use!
*NEWS	for announcements
ORN	for ornamentals
*ORG	for organic issues (composting, etc.)
PEST	for pest control, including weeds, bugs, and other pests
SEED	for propagation techniques, including seeds 
TOOL	for equipment and techniques
TREE	for arboriculture
ZONE	for questions on zones and hardiness


(* New as of 5/11/95)

Use of these keywords will make reading this large (and wonderful) list a 
bit easier.
Thanks!

Leslie Troutman
TROUTMAN@UIUC.EDU



From hslater@wink.io.org Fri May 19 00:22:25 EDT 1995
Article: 70305 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!EU.net!uunet!winternet.com!pinch.io.org!ionews.io.org!wink.io.org!hslater
From: hslater@wink.io.org (Harold Slater)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Ferns: Need mail order supplier
Date: 17 May 1995 23:32:53 GMT
Organization: Internex Online, Toronto, Ontario, Canada (416 363 3783)
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <3pe135$egi@ionews.io.org>
References: <3p89lc$o5a@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: wink.io.org
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

M Yocum (myocum@aol.com) wrote:
: Can anyone recommend a mail order supplier of ferns?  I have all of the
: more common plant and seed catalogs, and am looking for suppliers who

If you have WWWeb access try this URL....

         http://www.cog.brown.edu/gardening/

There is an excellent listing (800+) of catalogues and I know there
is a few fern mailorder comapanies.

Harold


From garylipe@onramp.net Fri May 19 22:31:09 EDT 1995
Article: 70669 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!onramp.net!garylipe
From: garylipe@onramp.net (Gary Lipe)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: CHAT:  Address for American Association of Botanic Gardens and Arboreta
Date: 17 May 1995 23:49:21 GMT
Organization: People & Contacts
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3pe221$nvk@news.onramp.net>
Reply-To: garylipe@onramp.net
NNTP-Posting-Host: turnpike20.onramp.net

Would you please Email the address or reply to the post.  Thanks

Gary Lipe, garylipe@onramp.net
PO BOX 11830, Ft Worth, TX 76110-1830
Visit the WILDFLOWERS page at:
http://rampages.onramp.net/~garylipe/



From saeedg@efi.com Fri May 19 22:31:41 EDT 1995
Article: 70729 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!venus.sun.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!rmstar.efi.com!saeedg
From: saeedg@efi.com (Saeed Ganji)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 18 May 1995 01:08:12 GMT
Organization: Electronics for Imaging, San Mateo, CA
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3pe6ls$8ab@rmstar.efi.com>
References: <3p6alv$1b0q@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: efi.efi.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Hugh Burns (MNJB39A@prodigy.com) wrote:
: I am interested in gardening books.  I live in Atlanta, and am a weekend 
: gardener who loves all plants, especially flowers.  Can anyone give a 
: review and/or comparison of Reader's Digest's _A Garden For All Seasons_ 
: and Better Homes and Gardens' _Complete Guide to Flower Gardening_?  I've 
: seen these books in the stores and would like to know what any of you 
: think of them.  Thank you.
: Carol Burns

I recently checked out a book from our library called "60-minute Gardening".
It promotes the usage of a 200 square foot vegetable garden using raised
beds and row covers. It has illustrations on how to build the whole thing.
It looke really interesting, and I've been considering doing it for next
growring season. It claims the garden will be pretty much pest and disease
free. It is also an organic method, claimed to produce around 400 pounds of
vegetable per year.

Any one else know anything about this book?



From dhowarth@wam.umd.edu Fri May 19 22:39:36 EDT 1995
Article: 70735 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!purdue!haven.umd.edu!cville-srv.wam.umd.edu!rac1.wam.umd.edu!dhowarth
From: dustin k howarth <dhowarth@wam.umd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Ecopsychology
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 17:37:55 -0400
Organization: University of Maryland College Park
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91.950518173650.1569L-100000@rac1.wam.umd.edu>
References: <EnterYourUserid-0705951632240001@slip17.cyberquest.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rac1.wam.umd.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
In-Reply-To: <EnterYourUserid-0705951632240001@slip17.cyberquest.com>



On Sun, 7 May 1995, Scooby wrote:

> Hello out there!  I will be offering a free introductory e-mail course in
> ecopsychology.  All materials will be e-mailed to you and you'll get a
> chance to re-connect with nature as well as dialoguing with folks from
> around the world.  If you are interested, please send a brief note to
> scooby@mist.seattleantioch.edu
> 
> 
How do I reach you?  (Address not complete)

Dustin.


From LRFORTNEY@hep.phy.duke.edu Sat May 20 23:48:05 EDT 1995
Article: 70797 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!news.duke.edu!hepmc7.phy.duke.edu!user
From: LRFORTNEY@hep.phy.duke.edu (L. R. Fortney)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening Books
Date: 18 May 1995 11:31:25 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, Duke Univ
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <LRFORTNEY-1805950733220001@hepmc7.phy.duke.edu>
References: <3p6alv$1b0q@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <3pe6ls$8ab@rmstar.efi.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hepmc7.phy.duke.edu

In article <3pe6ls$8ab@rmstar.efi.com>, saeedg@efi.com (Saeed Ganji) wrote:

> Hugh Burns (MNJB39A@prodigy.com) wrote:
> : I am interested in gardening books.  I live in Atlanta, and am a weekend 
> : gardener who loves all plants, especially flowers.  Can anyone give a 
> : review and/or comparison of Reader's Digest's _A Garden For All Seasons_ 
> : and Better Homes and Gardens' _Complete Guide to Flower Gardening_?  I've 
> : seen these books in the stores and would like to know what any of you 
> : think of them.  Thank you.
> 
    Of the books I've seen and/or own, the that I like best are:

Perennials for American Gardens, Ruth Clausen & Nicolas Ekstrom
Alphabetical descriptions with some pictures; includes appendices on
gardening, sources of material and indexes of synonyms and common names.

The American Horticultural Society Encyclopedia of Garden Plants
Lots and lots of pictures grouped by color, size, bloom time with an
associated alphabetical index and description by latin name.

   These are not your basic "how to" books but are mainly photographs and
descriptions of perennials and their growing conditions.  The first one
has relatively few pictures, but I think it has the more useful
descriptions of plants and growing conditions.

-- 
Lloyd Fortney, Physics Dept, Duke University ---Opinions are mine---


From moonowl@magi.com Mon May 22 13:26:18 EDT 1995
Article: 71032 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsfeed.pitt.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!fonorola!news!news
From: moonowl@magi.com (Rick Gebethner)
Subject: Re: Gardening Resources on the Interent - gardfaq.txt [1/1]
Sender: news@magi.com
Message-ID: <D8p36K.J7x@magi.com>
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 23:42:19 GMT
References: <3p6fb4$mnu@yrkpa.kias.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: magi2p10.magi.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Organization: MoonOwl Software
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.11
Lines: 29

In article <3p6fb4$mnu@yrkpa.kias.com>, billg@yrkpa.kias.com says...
>
>                                                         Updated 5/14/95
>
>Well this is the second posting of this list. I have made a few 
corrections 
>and added a few sites.
>
>I wish to keep this list up to date with corrections and new info
>as it becomes available. I could not have gathered all this info myself. 

Hi Bill,

Great job! The Internet being the maze it is, lists like yours are 
invaluable. Please add my site (in the sig) to your FAQ. 

Compuserve also has a forum on gardening that you may wish to add in. I'm 
not sure whether it qualifies as an Internet resource, but some may be 
interested. 

Regards,

Rick Gebethner
-- 
Visit the MoonOwl Web for a tour of 'Garden in Time'
flower garden design software
http://infoweb.magi.com/~moonowl
================================



From klier@cobra.uni.edu Mon May 22 13:27:29 EDT 1995
Article: 71044 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!cobra.uni.edu!klier
From: klier@cobra.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Photosynthesis Process and 
Message-ID: <1995May20.150333.43587@cobra.uni.edu>
Date: 20 May 95 15:03:33 -0500
References: <3pj09n$msn@male.EBay.Sun.COM> <berntson-2005950858570001@128.103.161.153>
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Northern Iowa
Lines: 16

In article <berntson-2005950858570001@128.103.161.153>, berntson@oeb.harvard.edu (Glenn M. Berntson) writes:
> In article <3pj09n$msn@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, ctyuan@sedona.ebay.sun.com wrote:
> 
>> I have been wondering how trees with red leaves conduct photosynthesis 
>> and whether the chlorophyll is present at all in the red leaves? I will 
>> appreciate folks who have insights on my questions to provide directions.
>> 
>>
> Yes, the leaves do still contain chlorophyll, but they also contain a
> substance called xanthophyll which give them the red color.  Xanthophyll
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^anthocyanins (there are a number of them,
and most read-leaved plants have several different anthocyanins in their
vaculoles).

Kay Klier  klier@cobra.uni.edu



From admstyping@aol.com Mon May 22 13:27:42 EDT 1995
Article: 71043 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: admstyping@aol.com (Admstyping)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Butterfly Gardening Pamphlet
Date: 19 May 1995 18:03:22 -0400
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I have written a butterfly gardening pamphlet that might be of interest. 
Some topics covered are How to Attract Butterflies, Butterfly Garden
Design and a plant listing containing annuals, perennials, shurbs, trees
and vines of both host and nectar plants that attract butterflies.

The pamphlet is 9 pages and cost $3.00, that includes postage and
shipping.  E-mail me at Admstyping@aol.com for more information.

Thank you, Lydia


From lionhert@ix.netcom.com Mon May 22 13:28:49 EDT 1995
Article: 71017 of rec.gardens
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From: lionhert@ix.netcom.com (Richard & Marsha)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Periodic Post FAQ US Plant Hardiness-Zones
Date: 20 May 1995 02:16:44 GMT
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   FAQ: US PLANT HARDINESS-ZONE CHART:

Remember there are extremes in each of the zones 
described below.  In each Zone you can have
Dry-Normal-Wet moisture patterns, wind patterns,
and sun/shade patterns.  It is entirely possible 
for your garden to be in one zone and your neighbors
garden in another. Likewise in severe weather years
your Zone may vary from the normal pattern.

        Approximate range of Average  
        Annual MINIMUM Temperatures.
       (Based on 10 deg.F increments)

           C=Centigrade/  F=Farenheit

     Zone  1 =  below -45C/      -50F
     Zone  2 = -45C/-40C    -50F/-40F
     Zone  3 = -40C/-34C    -40F/-30F
     Zone  4 = -34C/-29C    -30F/-20F
     Zone  5 = -29C/-23C    -20F/-10F
     Zone  6 = -23C/-18C    -10F/  0F
     Zone  7 = -18C/-12C     0 F/+10F 
     Zone  8 = -12C/- 7C    +10F/+20F
     Zone  9 = - 7C/- 1C    +20F/+30F
     Zone 10 = - 1C/+ 4C    +30F/+40F
     Zone 11 =  above+4C/        +40F

...............=======ooo=======.......................

       REVISED HARDINESS-ZONE CHART
     Annual Average MINIMUM Terperature
      (Based on 5 deg.F increments)

     Zone  1  =  below -45.6/c    -50F
     Zone  2a = -42.8/-45.5c  -50/-45F
     Zone  2b = -42.7/-40.0c  -45/-40F
     Zone  3a = -40.0/-37.3c  -40/-35F                   
     Zone  3b = -37.2/-34.5c  -35/-30F
     Zone  4a = -34.4/-31.7c  -30/-25F                      
     Zone  4b = -31.6/-28.9c  -25/-20F
     Zone  5a = -28.8/-26.2c  -20/-15F
     Zone  5b = -26.1/-23.4c  -15/-10F
     Zone  6a = -23.3/-20.6c  -10/- 5F
     Zone  6b = -20.5/-17.8c  - 5/  0F
     Zone  7a = -17.7/-15.0c    0/+ 5F
     Zone  7b = -15.0/-12.3c  + 5/+10F
     Zone  8a = -12.2/- 9.5c  +10/+15F 
     Zone  8b = - 9.4/- 6.7c  +15/+20F 
     Zone  9a = - 6.6/- 3.9c  +20/+25F  
     Zone  9b = - 3.8/- 1.2c  +25/+30F 
     Zone 10a = - 1.1/+ 1.6c  +30/+35F 
     Zone 10b = + 1.7/+ 4.4c  +35/+40F  
     Zone 11  =   above+4.5c/     +40F

.................=======ooo=======.....................               
        
                       
       AVERAGE DATES OF FIRST AND LAST FROST
NOTE: The dates below are for the Northern Hemisphere
      (Adjust appropriately for Southern Hemisphere)

Zone  1 = Average dates Last Frost = 1  Jun / 30 Jun
          Average dates First Frost= 1  Jul / 31 Jul
          Note: vulnerable to frost 365 days per year.          
          
Zone  2 = Average dates Last Frost = 1  May / 31 May
          Average dates First Frost= 1  Aug / 31 Aug

Zone  3 = Average dates Last Frost = 1  May / 31 May
          Average dates First Frost= 1  Sep / 30 Sep
          
Zone  4 = Average dates Last Frost = 1  May / 30 May
          Average dates Frist Frost= 1  Sep / 30 Sep
          
Zone  5 = Average dates Last Frost = 30 Mar / 30 Apr
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Sep / 30 Oct

Zone  6 = Average dates Last Frost = 30 Mar / 30 Apr 
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Sep / 30 Oct 

Zone  7 = Average dates Last Frost = 30 Mar / 30 Apr 
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Sep / 30 Oct 
          
Zone  8 = Average dates Last Frost = 28 Feb / 30 Mar 
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Oct / 30 Nov 

Zone  9 = Average dates Last Frost = 30 Jan / 28 Feb 
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Nov / 30 Dec

Zone 10 = Average dates Last Frost = 30 Jan or before
          Average dates First Frost= 30 Nov / 30 Dec

Zone 11 = Free of Frost throughout the year.

.................=======ooo=======.....................

                  STANDARD DEFINITIONS

Frost:		  Light Freeze. damage depends upon 
                length of frost duration.

Light Freeze:   -2C/-0C <> 29F/32F - tender plants  
		  killed with little destructive 
		  effect on other vegetation.

Moderate Freeze:-8C/-2C <> 25F/28F - wide destruction 
		  on most vegetation with heavy 
		  damage to fruit blossoms and  
		  tender semi-hardy plants.

Severe Freeze:  -9C <> 24F and colder, heavy damage 
  	 	  to most plants.

..................=======ooo=======....................

Shade:	   Usually an area under a closed tree canopy 
          that receives no direct sun at all.

Partial   Usually an area under a lone or limited 
Shade:    number of trees receiving only a 1 to 5  
          hours of dappled sun during the day.

Partial   Usually refers to an area that receives  
Sun:      approximately 3 - 5 hours of full 
	   sun per day.

Full Sun: Refers to an area receiving 6 or more 
          hours of full sun per day.

.................========ooo========...................

          Comments/Suggestions are welcome
               lionhert@ix.netcom.com
              The Internet = CyberKudzu
                     


From lduffy@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Mon May 22 13:31:09 EDT 1995
Article: 71149 of rec.gardens
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From: Morrison <lduffy@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Books That Work Software at Kmart
Date: Sat, 20 May 1995 09:56:58 -0500
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	Kmart is selling "Landscape Backyard Construction" and 
"Garden-Plant Selector" for $14.97 per package. Are either of these 
programs worth purchasing? Are they obsolete blow-out sale items that are 
or have been replaced by CD ROM upgrades?

  Morrison
  Iowa City,IA
  lduffy@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu



From boblyd@iii1.iii.net Mon May 22 13:31:31 EDT 1995
Article: 70997 of rec.gardens
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From: boblyd@iii1.iii.net (robert p blais)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORGANIC seeds ???
Date: 21 May 1995 10:01:35 -0400
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Charles Schmid (QTUR04B@prodigy.com) wrote:
: I'm looking for organically grown seeds for vegetables, edible flowers, 
: and herbs.  Any suggestions?

Johnny's selected seeds in Albion, ME is where I buy all my seeds. They 
are generally untreated and have many interesting varieties. Seeds of 
Change is another company, locatedin New Mexico, I think.
------------------------------------

Bob Blais		
cellist/gardener/tai chi unmaster
20 Smith Street
Townsend, MA 01469
508-597-0197
boblyd@iii.net



From s.meric@ix.netcom.com Mon May 22 13:31:39 EDT 1995
Article: 71139 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: s.meric@ix.netcom.com (Polar)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORGANIC seeds ???
Date: 22 May 1995 02:17:50 GMT
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In <3pnh4i$s1d@iii1.iii.net> boblyd@iii1.iii.net (robert p blais)
writes: 
>
>Charles Schmid (QTUR04B@prodigy.com) wrote:
>: I'm looking for organically grown seeds for vegetables, edible
flowers, 
>: and herbs.  Any suggestions?
>
>Johnny's selected seeds in Albion, ME is where I buy all my seeds.
They 
>are generally untreated and have many interesting varieties. Seeds of 
>Change is another company, locatedin New Mexico, I think.
>------------------------------------
>

There's also the Seed Savers Network, which recently won a MacArthur
prize.  Great outfit that has been doing terrific work in maintaining
genetic diversity.  Interesting and exotic species available from
around the world.  Your obligation is to save the seeds from your crop
and make them available to other members.    Somewhere in the Midwest. 
Library ref. could get you full address.

Polar


From bmcconn@boi.hp.com Mon May 22 13:32:04 EDT 1995
Article: 71176 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: bmcconn@boi.hp.com (Bill McConnell)
Subject: Re: Unusual vegetable ideas? -- I'm bored!
Sender: news@boi.hp.com (Boise Site News Server)
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:13:15 GMT
References: <fd1D8vzD0.943@netcom.com> <Edda1995May20.194955.23377@news.compulink.com> <1995May21.101304.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> <fd1D8xsKu.12n@netcom.com>
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Nichol's Garden Nursery (1190 North Pacific Highway, Albany, OR 97321) 
has unusual seeds.  I'm trying "Earth Chestnut" and "Giant Walking
Stick Kale" this year.  OBTW, anyone with experience with these?
Earth Chestnut appears to be a perennial in the catalog and the
Kale is somewhat a tourist attraction in the Channel Islands,
actual walking sticks are made!


Bill McConnell
Zone 7
These are opinions of mine, not HP's!


From bmcconn@boi.hp.com Mon May 22 13:32:10 EDT 1995
Article: 71177 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: bmcconn@boi.hp.com (Bill McConnell)
Subject: Re: Unusual vegetable ideas? -- I'm bored!
Sender: news@boi.hp.com (Boise Site News Server)
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Date: Mon, 22 May 1995 14:21:12 GMT
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Speaking of seeds, Park's has a great Cauliflower, Corona.  They 
list it as quick to head and it is.  I had to pick 'em last
week and my other "crucifers" have only started to show
flowers.

Bill McConnell
Zone 7
These are opinions of mine, not HP's!


From garden7@aol.com Mon May 22 13:32:15 EDT 1995
Article: 71003 of rec.gardens
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From: garden7@aol.com (GARDEN 7)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Plants that repell BEES?
Date: 21 May 1995 10:50:35 -0400
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  I have heard that bees hate the herb feverfew and will stay away from
anything that is even planted near it.


From coeli@aol.com Mon May 22 13:32:39 EDT 1995
Article: 71133 of rec.gardens
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From: coeli@aol.com (Coeli)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Bat gardens
Date: 21 May 1995 21:40:38 -0400
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Now I have heard everything! Encourage bats in your garden and they will
keep pests away. There are certain plants they like, jsust as butterflies
have specific tastes. Has anyone tried this?


From jfsanders@delphi.com Mon May 29 22:24:39 EDT 1995
Article: 72445 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news2.near.net!news.delphi.com!jfsanders
From: jfsanders@delphi.com (jack sanders)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Weed Dictionary
Date: 27 May 1995 23:57:20 GMT
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In article <oettinger@aol.com (Oettinger) writes:

> Anyone knows of a good weed dictionary, with nice pictures to help
> identify different lawn and garden weeds?

Here are five books to look for:

"Weeds" by Alexander C. Martin, New York: Golden Press, 1972. Small paperback, 
part of the Golden Guide series, offers excellent color illustrations and
range maps. No tips on dealing with them, but interesting reading. Probably in 
print. 

"Wildly Successful Plants: A Handbook of North American Weeds" by Lawrence J.
Crockett, New York:Macmillan, 1977. Excellent guide to more than 100 major
weeds; good black and white illustrations. Tells in detail how to get rid of
them. Probably not in print, but in libraries. 

"Common Weeds of the United States" by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, New 
York: Dover, 1971. Comprehensive guide to 220 species across the continent.
Range maps, good drawings. No recommendations for dealing with them. In print. 

"Weeds: Control without Poisons" by Charles Walters Sr., Kansas City, Mo.:
Acres USA, 1991. A comprehensive treatment of the topic, with lots of
background, identification guide, etc. Aimed particularly at farmers, but
gardeners can benefit. Over 300 pages. In print and orderable from Acres USA,
Box 9547, Kansas City, Mo. 64133-9547. 

"All About Weeds" by Edwin Rollin Spencer, New York: Dover, 1974. A classic,
written by an expert in the field. Suggestions for dealing with weeds, plus
loads of background and lore. May not be in print, but good libraries should
have. 

--Jack Sanders, Ridgefield, Conn., jfsanders@delphi.com
  author of "Hedgemaids and Fairy Candles: The Lives &  Lore
  of North American Wildflowers," Ragged Mountain/McGraw-Hill, 1993


From postmanj@ava.bcc.orst.edu Mon May 29 22:26:36 EDT 1995
Article: 72190 of rec.gardens
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From: postmanj@ava.bcc.orst.edu (Joseph Postman)
Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.fruit,sci.agriculture,alt.agriculture.misc,alt.folklore.herbs,bionet.plants,misc.education.science,rec.gardens,sci.bio
Subject: Strawberry Time!  Help expand small fruit gene bank.
Date: 25 May 1995 17:59:00 GMT
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     HELP EXPAND COLLECTION OF STRAWBERRY GENETIC RESOURCES
      ____________________________________________________
  
  Second Post
  Much thanks to those who have responded, and who have already sent seeds. 

   -------------
   You are invited to participate in an experiment in wide-area germplasm
collection.  Please feel free to forward this message to school teachers 
or other appropriate individuals.

   At the National Clonal Germplasm Repository in Corvallis, Oregon, we
maintain plant germplasm collections of several temperate fruit and nut
crops.  These plant collections are freely available to plant breeders and
other researchers around the world.  I would like to test the possibility
of using the internet to access and assemble seed collections of an easily
identified, and easily extracted wild fruit plant.  Wild strawberries 
are beginning to ripen in much of North America, and depending on your 
latitude and elevation may continue during the next month or two.  Wild 
Fragaria virginiana here in Western Oregon are just starting to ripen. 

     We are interested in expanding our collection of *wild* and
preferably *native* strawberry germplasm.  Geographic regions of North
America that are NOT well represented in our strawberry gene bank include
the mid-west, south-east, and south-west U.S. (except California), Alaska,
and central to eastern Canada.  Out of the 50 United States, more than 25
are not represented in our collection!  Seed samples from everywhere
outside of North America are also needed. 

   If you would like to participate in this effort, and enjoy a bit of
your local outdoor environment, please do the following: 

1.  Watch for a patch of wild strawberries in your part of the world.  We
do *not* want seed from cultivated varieties in a garden, or from plants
that may have escaped from cultivation, but from plants that appear to be
a part of the native vegetation. 

2.  If there are ripe fruit present, pick a handful of fruit and place in
a small bag.  Even 5 - 10 fruit will contain a useful quantity of seed,
and no more than 25 fruit from a site are needed.  Be sure to eat some of
the fruit around you and enjoy this spring treat.  This is an excellent
activity for those with young children!  (SCHOOL TEACHERS TAKE NOTE)

3.  Strawberry plants growing very close together may actually be a single
clone, so to get a better representation of the genetic diversity it is
better to collect fruit from several scattered plants at one location.  

(I am only asking for a single sample from each participant.  If you wish
to make additional collections from different locations, or from plants
that appear to be a different species, that would be great.)

4.  Please also collect 2-3 average leaves from the plants to aid us in
species identification.  These can be flattened and dried inside a folded
paper towel. 

5.  Strawberry seeds are easily separated from ripe fruit by placing them
in a household blender with a cup of water and blending at high speed for
just a few seconds. (Not too long, or the seeds may be damaged).  The good
seeds will settle to the bottom, and the fruit pulp and unripe seeds will
float.  Wait a minute or so for the seeds to settle, and pour off the
liquid. The seeds can then be rinsed or scraped out and allowed to dry on
a paper towel. 

   Or, just send the fruit and we will extract the seeds here.  If you are
outside the United States, please extract the seeds, as fresh fruit may
harbor pests and should not be sent into the U.S. from abroad. 

6.  Place the dried seeds, along with a brief note describing where they were
collected, in an envelope and send to the address below.  We would like 
enough information to be able to estimate your latitude, longitude, and 
elevation from our maps.  Comments about the local environment (soil, 
climate, other nearby vegetation) while appreciated, are not necessary.   
Please also enclose the dried leaves, and your name and address so that 
we can acknowledge you as the collector.

7.  There are *no* quarantine restrictions against shipping strawberry
seeds, or dried leaf specimens into or within the United States. 

8.  Seed samples will be deposited in the U.S. National Plant Germplasm
System's repository in Corvallis, Oregon, with your name as the
donor/collector.  We will germinate a few seeds from samples that
represent unique species, or under-represented geographic areas.  Plants
will be evaluated for horticultural and botanical characteristics, and all
samples will be made available to researchers around the world. 

   I will send a brochure describing our plant germplasm conservation
program, and a summary of samples received through this internet
experiment to anyone who participates.  Thank you for your assistance.  


Plant Identification Note:  There are two genera that are easily confused 
with strawberry.  Strawberries nearly always have WHITE flowers.  Potentilla 
and Duchesnea may have very similar leaves and fruit, but most have 
yellow flowers (and the fruit is not sweet).

 Please send seed samples to:

	Strawberry Project
	National Clonal Germplasm Repository
	33447 Peoria Road
	Corvallis, Oregon 97333
	USA

 ============================================================================
       Joseph D. Postman        |       N ational            \
      -PLANT PATHOLOGIST-       |       C lonal            /,,,,\   Eat More
     postmanj@bcc.orst.edu      |       G ermplasm         \,,,,/   Fruit!
     corjp@sol.ars-grin.gov     |       R epository         \,,/
 ============================================================================
	USDA/Agricultural Research Service, Corvallis, Oregon, USA


From phys58@jetson.uh.edu Mon May 29 22:32:03 EDT 1995
Article: 72082 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!news.uh.edu!jetson.uh.edu!phys58
From: phys58@jetson.uh.edu (Hortvet, Douglas Richard)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: EDIBLE: Growing Habaneros
Date: 26 May 1995 12:36 CDT
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I have for the first time started to grow habanero peppers from seed.  The small
plants are approx. 2-3" tall in 4" plastic pots, and appear to be doing OK.  
The various sources researched for detailed instructions on 'How To' grow these
leave me with the following questions: Note - for climate reference, I am in 
the Houston area.

	1. At what stage of growth should one begin to pinch leaves, how many 
	   and should these be removed from the top or bottom of the plant? 

	2. What plant food works the best, i.e. brand, N-P-K range, 
	   concentration, and frequency of application?

	3. What insecticide or organic means of keeping pests away is 
	   preferred? 

	4. These are being grown in pots, what is the best size pot to use 
	   to adequately accomodate a mature plant?  Would it be advisable to
	   plant in the ground?

	5. How big can these plants get, and how long after the seedlings come
	   up can one expect to have peppers?

	6. Is there any regimen that promotes a hotter pepper?  I read that 
	   stress on the plant, i.e. over-watering followed by under-watering, 
	   can promote hotter peppers.

As evidenced by the above questions, my gardening knowledge is very limited.

Any and all comments will be most appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Doug Hortvet, Jr. 


From ledwards@crl.com Mon May 29 22:32:17 EDT 1995
Article: 72186 of rec.gardens
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From: ledwards@crl.com (Lynn Edwards)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: EDIBLE: Growing Habaneros
Date: 26 May 1995 20:04:19 -0700
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Hortvet, Douglas Richard (phys58@jetson.uh.edu) wrote:
: I have for the first time started to grow habanero peppers from seed.  The 
: small plants are approx. 2-3" tall in 4" plastic pots, and appear to be 
: doing OK...
:
: 1. At what stage of growth should one begin to pinch leaves, how many 
:    and should these be removed from the top or bottom of the plant? 

I've read about pepper pruning increasing yield, but I've never tried 
it.  I've had good luck just leaving the plant alone to grow as it 
pleases.  

: 2. What plant food works the best, i.e. brand, N-P-K range, 
:    concentration, and frequency of application?

I use a slow release 20,20,20 (the cheap stuff) at transplant time, and 
then again in early august.  Don't use too much fertilizer or low pepper 
production will result.

: 3. What insecticide or organic means of keeping pests away is 
:    preferred?

The kinds and severity of pest problems are a local issue.  In my garden 
the only major pest problems I've had are aphids (seedlings only, early 
spring, and in the greenhouse), Snails/Slugs (spring and fall).

Occasionally I've had problems with earwigs in the early spring eating 
seedlings, and tomato/tobacco hornworms in the summer.  

: 4. These are being grown in pots, what is the best size pot to use 
:    to adequately accomodate a mature plant?  Would it be advisable to
:    plant in the ground?

Don't know, but for the first time I'm trying some Hab's in pots also.  
Mine are in 3 to 5 gallon pots (and about ten more in the ground).  
Supposedly Hab's don't overwinter well inside under lights, but I'm going 
to try it anyway. 

: 5. How big can these plants get, and how long after the seedlings come
:    up can one expect to have peppers?

Two and a half feet tall (in the ground).  Here in northern california I 
don't get Hab's until mid august, with the last peppers being around mid 
october.  Fortunately, the peppers dry well to last through to the next 
year.  

: 6. Is there any regimen that promotes a hotter pepper?  I read that 
:    stress on the plant, i.e. over-watering followed by under-watering, 
:    can promote hotter peppers.

Time.  Early peppers will be milder (but still very hot compared to what 
most envision as hot).  I baby my plants and still get many gut wrenchers 
every year.

---Lynn Edwards
   Los Altos, California, USA



From steveg@primenet.com Mon May 29 22:32:30 EDT 1995
Article: 72709 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.primenet.com!steveg
From: steveg@primenet.com (Steve Gerland)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: EDIBLE: Growing Habaneros
Date: 29 May 1995 05:44:00 GMT
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet (602)395-1010
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Hortvet, Douglas Richard (phys58@jetson.uh.edu) wrote:
: I have for the first time started to grow habanero peppers from seed.  The small
: plants are approx. 2-3" tall in 4" plastic pots, and appear to be doing OK.  
: The various sources researched for detailed instructions on 'How To' grow these
: leave me with the following questions: Note - for climate reference, I am in 
: the Houston area.

: 	1. At what stage of growth should one begin to pinch leaves, how many 
: 	   and should these be removed from the top or bottom of the plant? 
	
	I have never pinched one back at it's early stages of growth.
	You can pinch off the top couple of leaves after the plant is
	several inches tall if you want a bushier plant.

: 	2. What plant food works the best, i.e. brand, N-P-K range, 
: 	   concentration, and frequency of application?

	Fish emulsion has worked well for me.  Apply it at the early
	stages of growth to help the plant grow faster.  I don't use
	any fertilizer at all after the plant has started setting
	fruit.

: 	3. What insecticide or organic means of keeping pests away is 
: 	   preferred? 

	I used to spray stuff, but I don't anymore.  Usually the birds
	take care of any bug problems.  Here in Phoenix we get whiteflys
	in the summer, but there's not much can be done about them anyway.

: 	4. These are being grown in pots, what is the best size pot to use 
: 	   to adequately accomodate a mature plant?  Would it be advisable to
: 	   plant in the ground?

	I have had good success growing habs indoors, and also overwintering
	an already established plant to be set back out in the spring.
	However, they are much happier outdoors.

: 	5. How big can these plants get, and how long after the seedlings come
: 	   up can one expect to have peppers?

	Usually outdoor plants grow 2 to 3 feet.  I have one variety of red
	hab that is almost five feet tall now.  They mature slowly.  Usually
	takes 5 - 6 months for the first orange fruit.  These will grow as
	perrenials if there is no freeze over the winter.  I now have some
	plants going on their third year!

: 	6. Is there any regimen that promotes a hotter pepper?  I read that 
: 	   stress on the plant, i.e. over-watering followed by under-watering, 
: 	   can promote hotter peppers.

	I would like to know more about this myself...
	So far what I have found is the hotter the weather, the hotter
	the pepper.

: As evidenced by the above questions, my gardening knowledge is very limited.

: Any and all comments will be most appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

: Doug Hortvet, Jr. 


These are only my own experiences.  I, too am still learning.

	Steve


From trav@u.washington.edu Mon May 29 22:33:02 EDT 1995
Article: 72102 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!uunet!news.u.washington.edu!saul2.u.washington.edu!trav
From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Growing Mizuna
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 13:17:50 -0700
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 31
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Hi,

Mizuna is a Japanese-bred mustard, selected for cold-hardiness so it can 
overwinter (where it doesn't get colder than the mid-teens).  I'll be REAL 
surprised if it doesn't send up seed-heads soon after you plant it out 
(mustards are photo-periodic; they bolt when daylength reaches a certain 
number of hours).

Spacing is usually 12 inches between plants.  Here in Washington State, 
we can direct-seed it in July, so it sizes up by fall.  It bolts in 
April, I think.

If perchance yours doesn't bolt, let me know where you got it!  The only 
mustard I know of that can be grown in summer is a strain of Pac Choi of 
which I'm not very fond (but the plants got huge, and never bolted, even 
through August).

Travis S.


 On 26 May 1995, Stephen Zagerman wrote:

> Does anyone have experience growing mizuna. It's a Japanese (?) salad 
> green. I got a 4" pot which is densely filled with it and I'm wondering 
> whether I should put the whole clump as is into the ground, or whetyher 
> I should break it up and if so, if the spacing is similar to looseleaf 
> lettuce (6"). Any ideas?
> 
> 
> 
> 


From steve@wco.com Mon May 29 22:33:11 EDT 1995
Article: 72444 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!pacbell.com!well!miwok!news.wco.com!news
From: Stephen Zagerman <steve@wco.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Growing Mizuna
Date: 26 May 1995 18:09:52 GMT
Organization: Stephen Zagerman Consulting
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Does anyone have experience growing mizuna. It's a Japanese (?) salad 
green. I got a 4" pot which is densely filled with it and I'm wondering 
whether I should put the whole clump as is into the ground, or whetyher 
I should break it up and if so, if the spacing is similar to looseleaf 
lettuce (6"). Any ideas?




From Rbarton@jove.acs.unt.edu Mon May 29 22:33:29 EDT 1995
Article: 72451 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!usenet
From: Rodney Barton <Rbarton@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: ORN Re:Old thread Iris color/chimeral plants
Date: 26 May 1995 20:52:47 GMT
Organization: UNT Health Science Center
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I found this web site with an explination of chimeral plants and their 
formation.  It includes the some work with african violets. No mention 
of iris, BUT the spring SIGNA (Species Iris Group of North America) 
newsletter has an article SPECULATING that chimeras may be responsible 
for some color patterns (ex. plicatas) in irises.  There was a book on 
chimeral plants referenced.  E-mail me privately and I'll send you the 
reference.




From Rbarton@jove.acs.unt.edu Mon May 29 22:33:33 EDT 1995
Article: 72452 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.unt.edu!usenet
From: Rodney Barton <Rbarton@jove.acs.unt.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORN Re:Old thread Iris color/chimeral plants
Date: 26 May 1995 20:53:58 GMT
Organization: UNT Health Science Center
Lines: 8
Distribution: inet
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Sorry, I forgot the URL for the web site:

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/tisscult/tcintro.html.

Rodney
Rbarton@jove.acs.unt.edu




From Jorob@ix.netcom.com Mon May 29 22:36:26 EDT 1995
Article: 72558 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!udel!nntp.sunbelt.net!news.sprintlink.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: Jorob@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: PEST Deer New way of ridding..
Date: 28 May 1995 16:52:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3qa9o9$hmg@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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In <kenneth-2705950712480001@tty4-05.swipnet.se> kenneth@dicom.se
(Kenneth Nilsson) writes: 
>
>I just watched the news here on Swedish TV, and some researchers had
been
>experimenting on how to keep deer and elk/moose (We have millions of
>those) ot of gardens and fields. The researcher had tested several
>hundreds of chemicals on plants, but the only thing that repelled deer
and
>moose (but not raw deer) was ordinary SOAP that you use when you
shower.

Around here (surrounding counties of Phila., Pennsylvania) some folks
use the soap brand Lifebouy. Others talk of Safeguard. Cakes, hung in
mesh-bags from low-level tree branches.

Some swear by it, others swear it does no more good than human hair
clippings. I guess you have to try it and see if your deer etc. will
avoid it.



From jstanley@gate.net Mon May 29 22:36:33 EDT 1995
Article: 72597 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!taco.cc.ncsu.edu!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!not-for-mail
From: jstanley@gate.net (John A. Stanley)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: PEST Deer New way of ridding..
Date: 28 May 1995 15:02:59 -0400
Organization: Provided by Petra
Lines: 24
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 <3qa9o9$hmg@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hopi.gate.net

In article <3qa9o9$hmg@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
Jorob@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Robinson) wrote:
> In <kenneth-2705950712480001@tty4-05.swipnet.se> kenneth@dicom.se
> (Kenneth Nilsson) writes: 
> >
> >I just watched the news here on Swedish TV, and some researchers had
> been
> >experimenting on how to keep deer and elk/moose (We have millions of
> >those) ot of gardens and fields. The researcher had tested several
> >hundreds of chemicals on plants, but the only thing that repelled deer
> and
> >moose (but not raw deer) was ordinary SOAP that you use when you
> shower.
> 
> Around here (surrounding counties of Phila., Pennsylvania) some folks
> use the soap brand Lifebouy. Others talk of Safeguard. Cakes, hung in
> mesh-bags from low-level tree branches.

Irish Spring is the brand of choice out here in Iowa. Foul stuff
it is.

--
John A. Stanley                      jstanley@gate.net



From linda@annie.wellesley.edu Mon May 29 22:39:55 EDT 1995
Article: 72614 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!charlotte.wellesley.edu!annie.wellesley.edu!linda
From: linda@annie.wellesley.edu (Linda M. French)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: CHAT Cottage garden workshop review
Date: 28 May 1995 20:58:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Astronomy, Wellesley College, Wellesley, MA
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3qao6f$lsq@charlotte.wellesley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: annie.wellesley.edu

Yesterday I attended a day-long workshop by Margaret Hensel, 
author of "English Cottage Gardens for American Gardeners".  This
is one of the better and more attractive gardening books I've
seen in recent years, and I was eager to attend.  Several 
posters here asked me to post a description, so here it is.

The workshop was held at Margaret's garden, on a farm near
West Stockbridge, MA (near the NY border).  Nearly 40 people
attended from all over the Northeast.  I talked to folks
>from  Long Island, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, Vermont, New
Hampshire, and Massachusetts.  We began the day with a slide
show of English cottage gardens.  Many of the pictures (not
all) were from Margaret's book.  She is equally interested 
in plants and in garden design.  She analyzes all of the 
components in a garden--paths, walls, hedges, gates, shrubs,
and trees are as important as flowering plants.  Toward
the end of the talk she showed before and after photographs
of gardens she has designed in New England.

After lunch we went to the garden for an identification tour
and a workshop of dividing plants.   I came home with about
10 small plants--achillea "Moonbeam", some Siberian iris,
some daylilies which are guaranteed not to be orange, astilbes
and a blue hardy geranium (not Johnson's Blue).  I made some
new friends with similar interests with whom I expect to
stay in touch.  

At $125, the workshop seemed a bit pricey when I signed
up, and it still seems high.  Everything was well
done, however, and especially if one is just getting started
with English style gardens it is probably worth it.  I'm glad
I went; even though I already was familiar with most of the
plants I did learn some new ones and got some experience 
dividing plants.  She does a fall workshop on bulbs as well.

In summary, I'd recommend this workshop for those who want an
introduction to the plants and design methods used for small
informal English gardens, for those who aren't familiar with
dividing perennials, and for those who can afford it!  If you
can't afford it, the book is quite good and is available from
many public libraries.

You can reach Margaret Hensel at Box 167, Richmond, MA 01254,
413-698-2291.

Linda French
zone 6
Westwood, MA
...who has just planted 6 Old Garden Roses, and lots of delphiniums,
hollyhocks, campanulas, dianthus and is contemplating her own
cottage garden.



From tony@nexus.yorku.ca Mon May 29 22:41:47 EDT 1995
Article: 72695 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!nexus.yorku.ca!tony
From: tony@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Split onion plants or not?
Date: 29 May 1995 11:45:08 GMT
Organization: York University, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 37
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References: <3qav1g$shg@imp.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nexus.yorku.ca

Keith Ashbey, a novice vegetable gardener, from the UK ..
> I bought a number of small onion plants as "plugs" containing
> about 3 plants each. These were too small to separate so I
> planted them together. They are now established-do I separate
> the plants or leave them to grow together?

Keith, I've been transplanting densely-sown onion seedlings for
15 years.  Let's say they are 1/4" thick at the bottom and 5-6"
high, and clumped together with their root systems entangled.
(If they are much bigger than that, I don't guarantee the
 following, but it may still work.  So either keep this for future
 reference, or try it with the dimensions "scaled up" a bit.)
Small onions are surprising tolerant to separation and transplanting.
My technique is as follows :

[1] Thoroughly soak the matted root systems in water.
[2] With the help of a gentle spray of running water, ease each
    seedling away from its "siblings", washing away all the soil.
[3] As you observe the seedling lose maybe 1/2-2/3 of its roots,
    mutter "I _do_ trust that man in Canada who gave me this advice" :-)
[4] With a pair of scissors trim both the (remaining) roots _and_the_
    _foliage_ to 2.5"-3".
My transplanting technique is to
[5] Punch a finger-length hole in the soil.
[6] Holding the seedling by the foliage, poke it down into the
    hole as far as you can (maybe twisting a bit to make the
    roots go in), and then pull the seedling back up to the
    right depth (this will distribute the roots) and firm the
    soil to hold it at the right depth.
[7] Watering with transplanter solution might help recovery from
    the "trauma".

My success rate is 95+ %

--
tony@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.



From tony@nexus.yorku.ca Mon May 29 22:42:31 EDT 1995
Article: 72695 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!newshub.ccs.yorku.ca!nexus.yorku.ca!tony
From: tony@nexus.yorku.ca (Anthony Wallis)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Split onion plants or not?
Date: 29 May 1995 11:45:08 GMT
Organization: York University, Ontario, Canada
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <3qcc44$l8l@sunburst.ccs.yorku.ca>
References: <3qav1g$shg@imp.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nexus.yorku.ca

Keith Ashbey, a novice vegetable gardener, from the UK ..
> I bought a number of small onion plants as "plugs" containing
> about 3 plants each. These were too small to separate so I
> planted them together. They are now established-do I separate
> the plants or leave them to grow together?

Keith, I've been transplanting densely-sown onion seedlings for
15 years.  Let's say they are 1/4" thick at the bottom and 5-6"
high, and clumped together with their root systems entangled.
(If they are much bigger than that, I don't guarantee the
 following, but it may still work.  So either keep this for future
 reference, or try it with the dimensions "scaled up" a bit.)
Small onions are surprising tolerant to separation and transplanting.
My technique is as follows :

[1] Thoroughly soak the matted root systems in water.
[2] With the help of a gentle spray of running water, ease each
    seedling away from its "siblings", washing away all the soil.
[3] As you observe the seedling lose maybe 1/2-2/3 of its roots,
    mutter "I _do_ trust that man in Canada who gave me this advice" :-)
[4] With a pair of scissors trim both the (remaining) roots _and_the_
    _foliage_ to 2.5"-3".
My transplanting technique is to
[5] Punch a finger-length hole in the soil.
[6] Holding the seedling by the foliage, poke it down into the
    hole as far as you can (maybe twisting a bit to make the
    roots go in), and then pull the seedling back up to the
    right depth (this will distribute the roots) and firm the
    soil to hold it at the right depth.
[7] Watering with transplanter solution might help recovery from
    the "trauma".

My success rate is 95+ %

--
tony@nexus.yorku.ca = Tony Wallis, York University, North York, Canada.



From sharvy@gladstone.uoregon.edu Mon May 29 22:51:28 EDT 1995
Article: 72697 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!emf.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!gladstone!sharvy
From: sharvy@gladstone.uoregon.edu (Peter Benjamin Sharvy)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Blueberries & Cross-pollination
Date: 29 May 1995 12:28:43 -0700
Organization: University of Oregon
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <sharvy.801775598@gladstone>
References: <3qcmve$b6v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: gladstone.uoregon.edu
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #4 (NOV)

donana@aol.com (Donana) writes:


>I live in northern Wisconsin. I have just purchased two blue-ray blueberry
>bushes and need to know the distance apart I can plant them apart and
>still get cross-pollination as they are going to grow much bigger than I
>expected them to be. Also any information on the planting, care and
>winterization of them would also be appreciated!

You can't get cross-pollination from identical varieties--they are clones 
of each other (or rather, of the great Blue-Ray blueberry in the sky). 
You need different varieties. Happily, I don't think blueberries need 
cross-pollination, although it might improve yield.


From jclp100@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk Mon May 29 22:51:33 EDT 1995
Article: 72649 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!demon!doc.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news
From: Jeremy Packer <jclp100@mole.bio.cam.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Photosynthesis Process and Chlorophyll
Date: 29 May 1995 15:51:54 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3qcqiq$inn@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
References: <3pj09n$msn@male.EBay.Sun.COM>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fsamac12.bioc.cam.ac.uk

ctyuan@sedona.ebay.sun.com (Chi-Tao Yuan) wrote:
>
> 
> I have been wondering how trees with red leaves conduct photosynthesis 
> and whether the chlorophyll is present at all in the red leaves? I will 
> appreciate folks who have insights on my questions to provide directions.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> Chi
> 
Red leaves still contain chlorophyll; it's just that they also contain
so much red pigment that the green colour is masked. Photosynthesis is
therefore quite normal. The only tree that I know of with a real 
chlorophyll deficiency problem is Acer pseudoplantanus 
"Brilliantissimum", in which the leaves turn a very pale pink. it grows
 very slowly and looks rather sick as a result!

Jeremy



From jen.mayer@southwest.org Tue May 30 23:35:45 EDT 1995
Article: 72941 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!sowest!jen.mayer
From: jen.mayer@southwest.org (Jen Mayer)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: EDB: COMPANION PLANTING Q
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 16:49:00 GMT
Message-ID: <9505300217565209@southwest.org>
Organization: SouthWest Consulting - BBS Line 818-285-8684
Distribution: world
References: <D97HCr.DJB@freenet.carleton.ca>
Lines: 10        

Janice Wright asked:
JW> and fennel in the large tubs with the tomatoes (I garden on my
JW> balcony). Does anyone know if tomatoes 'like' or 'dislike' dill
JW> and/or fennel?

Tomatoes are inhibited by fennel -- no mention of dill being a problem. 
I understand that planting basil or borage next to tomatoes will give 
them better flavor.  

 * RM 1.3 01256 * It's a dog-eat-dog world and I'm wearing MilkBone shorts.


From dotnik@moscow.com Tue May 30 23:36:48 EDT 1995
Article: 72859 of rec.gardens
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From: dotnik@moscow.com (Dorothy Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: pronounciation audiotape
Date: 28 May 1995 18:55:15 GMT
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A multimedia design program for gardens pronounces the botanical names
as well as giving information and stunning pictures of plants.  It's 
LandDesigner from Green Thumb Software, (303) 499-1388.  I believe the
program sells for an amazing $49.95!
   Dorothy Nichols  dotnik@moscow.com

In article <3psvu1$cav@saims.skidmore.edu>, jredder@saims.skidmore.edu 
says...
>
>I would like to find an audiotape of the pronounciations of the names
>of plants and flowers.  I do have difficulty knowing whether I am
>pronouncing names correctly...ie. : Kerria japonica for the
>globeflower kerria.  Does anyone know a source where I could buy an
>audiotape to teach me the correct pronounciation?  thank you.  Judy



From dotnik@moscow.com Tue May 30 23:37:00 EDT 1995
Article: 72860 of rec.gardens
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From: dotnik@moscow.com (Dorothy Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Peat Moss substitute
Date: 28 May 1995 19:22:12 GMT
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I use well aged compost from our local stable.  They even load it in our
truck free, and since it has a lot of sawdust in it I'll bet it has a low
pH.  This is the first year I'm growing a rhodie and I did use peat moss
with it, but the rest of the beds got about four inches of stable compost
tilled in about seven inches.
   Dorothy Nichols  dotnik@moscow.com

In article <3psq6o$q20@linus.ausys.se>, bbn@ausys.se says...
>
>Chris, Kaye and everybody else!
>
>I am glad to hear your opinions on this.  I saw a show on Television
>where one could see the "reaping" or shall I say "raping" of the
>bogs.  I cried.  It goes straight to the common sense center in
>the brain when one sees it.  I have purchased several
>sacks of Peat since I saw the show.  I have tried to push it
>down in my mind as I haven't found a good substitute for
>my Rhodes.  
>
>What other place could be better than here for people to get
>on their soap boxes!  I thankyou both for responding and I am
>looking for substitues as of now!!!  
>
>I welcome more ideas on substitues and ways to pamper the
>Rhodedendron.
>
>Sandra
>Stockholm
>



From bigler@eskimo.com Tue May 30 23:37:45 EDT 1995
Article: 72753 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: bigler@eskimo.com (Brian & Donna)
Subject: Re: Shiso = beefsteak plant???
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I bought some seeds at a local (Seattle) store that specializes in 
Japanese goods, so the seeds ARE available here.  I planted the seeds 
about two weeks ago and they're just poking through the soil now.  

Brian



From stevesng@teleport.com Tue May 30 23:37:59 EDT 1995
Article: 72775 of rec.gardens
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From: stevesng@teleport.com (Steven E. Singleton)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Dead & dying street trees
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:11:28 GMT
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Two common horse chestnuts, about 80 years old, live in my parking
strip in Portland, OR. One of these trees is nearly dead, the other
looks like it is about a year behind.  The symptoms are general, not
specific to a part of the trees.  Last year the dead tree's foliage
was about 1/2 normal, and smaller in size, few flowers set nuts and
the nuts that set fell off early.  This year there may be 20 leaves on
the whole tree.   The other tree looks like the dead one did last
year.  We have had a drought for a couple of years, but other horse
chestnuts in the immediate neighborhood have survived just fine 

We have smelled natural gas down by the street for a couple of years
now.  The gas company knew about the leak, but considered it minor,
and never did anything about it.  I have had the gas company out to
test for gas and sure enough they detected gas in the soil all around
the tree.    Now that the trees are dead or dying, I suspect that
natural gas might be the cause.

How to prove it?  Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance.



From Phil_Graham@mindlink.net Tue May 30 23:38:16 EDT 1995
Article: 72835 of rec.gardens
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From: Phil_Graham@mindlink.net (Phil Graham)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Dead & dying street trees
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 19:03:56
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In article <3qdgp5$2bl@maureen.teleport.com> stevesng@teleport.com (Steven E. Singleton) writes:
>From: stevesng@teleport.com (Steven E. Singleton)
>Subject: Dead & dying street trees
>Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 22:11:28 GMT

>Two common horse chestnuts, about 80 years old, live in my parking
>strip in Portland, OR. One of these trees is nearly dead, the other
>looks like it is about a year behind.  The symptoms are general, not
>specific to a part of the trees.  Last year the dead tree's foliage
>was about 1/2 normal, and smaller in size, few flowers set nuts and
>the nuts that set fell off early.  This year there may be 20 leaves on
>the whole tree.   The other tree looks like the dead one did last
>year.  We have had a drought for a couple of years, but other horse
>chestnuts in the immediate neighborhood have survived just fine 

>We have smelled natural gas down by the street for a couple of years
>now.  The gas company knew about the leak, but considered it minor,
>and never did anything about it.  I have had the gas company out to
>test for gas and sure enough they detected gas in the soil all around
>the tree.    Now that the trees are dead or dying, I suspect that
>natural gas might be the cause.

>How to prove it?  Any suggestions?  Thanks in advance.

Harris, in Arboriculture, describes gas damaged plants as having sparse shoots 
and small leaves.  Roots may develop a bluish, water soaked appearance.  Soils 
may become blue gray or black, and have rotten egg sulphur smell, like typical 
poorly aerated swamp soils.

Sounds like gas from what you've described.

Phil Graham, Certified Arborist


From eaplatt@worm.hooked.net Tue May 30 23:47:30 EDT 1995
Article: 72897 of rec.gardens
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From: eaplatt@worm.hooked.net (Elizabeth Platt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORGANIC seeds ???
Date: 29 May 1995 22:06:53 -0700
Organization: Hooked
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NNTP-Posting-Host: worm.hooked.net

Bountiful Gardens also carry a selection of organically grown 
seeds--but don't claim 100% of their stock as organic.  To 
quote their catalog:  "We are frequently asked if our seed is 
organic--some is, but we cannot claim that all is organic, 
strictly speaking...If it is legally organic, or better yet 
bioitensive, it will be noted." 

Their address is:

Bountiful Gardens Seeds
18001 Shafer Ranch Road, Willits CA  95490

Their main catalog offers some unusual items, such as sea kale 
and red brussels sprouts.  

They also publish a separate rare seeds supplement, which costs 
$2.00. 


sacks@notime.enet.dec.com (Gerald Sacks) wrote:

>
>Seed Saver's Exchange
>3076 North Winn Road
>Decorah, Iowa 52101
>
>I think some of the folks who've replied to the query 
>have missed the point.  The original poster was asking 
>for organically-grown seeds.  This doesn't  mean 
>open-pollinated seeds or untreated seeds (although I'd 
>be surprised  if organically-grown hybrids are 
>available, and it would pretty strange  to chemically 
>treat organically-grown seeds).  I think Seeds of 
>Change  claims all or most of their seeds are 
>organically grown, and Abundant Life  Seed Foundation 
>annotates which varieties are organically grown.
>
>Gerald Sacks			sacks@notime.enet.dec.com  



From eaplatt@worm.hooked.net Tue May 30 23:48:55 EDT 1995
Article: 72897 of rec.gardens
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From: eaplatt@worm.hooked.net (Elizabeth Platt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORGANIC seeds ???
Date: 29 May 1995 22:06:53 -0700
Organization: Hooked
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NNTP-Posting-Host: worm.hooked.net

Bountiful Gardens also carry a selection of organically grown 
seeds--but don't claim 100% of their stock as organic.  To 
quote their catalog:  "We are frequently asked if our seed is 
organic--some is, but we cannot claim that all is organic, 
strictly speaking...If it is legally organic, or better yet 
bioitensive, it will be noted." 

Their address is:

Bountiful Gardens Seeds
18001 Shafer Ranch Road, Willits CA  95490

Their main catalog offers some unusual items, such as sea kale 
and red brussels sprouts.  

They also publish a separate rare seeds supplement, which costs 
$2.00. 


sacks@notime.enet.dec.com (Gerald Sacks) wrote:

>
>Seed Saver's Exchange
>3076 North Winn Road
>Decorah, Iowa 52101
>
>I think some of the folks who've replied to the query 
>have missed the point.  The original poster was asking 
>for organically-grown seeds.  This doesn't  mean 
>open-pollinated seeds or untreated seeds (although I'd 
>be surprised  if organically-grown hybrids are 
>available, and it would pretty strange  to chemically 
>treat organically-grown seeds).  I think Seeds of 
>Change  claims all or most of their seeds are 
>organically grown, and Abundant Life  Seed Foundation 
>annotates which varieties are organically grown.
>
>Gerald Sacks			sacks@notime.enet.dec.com  



From degregor@ix.netcom.com Tue May 30 23:49:01 EDT 1995
Article: 72731 of rec.gardens
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From: degregor@ix.netcom.com (AMDeGregorio)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: SOURCE-square plot gardening, companion planting
Date: 30 May 1995 11:30:24 GMT
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In <mailid.52.0009069E@unb.ca> mailid@unb.ca (Enter Your Name Here)
writes: 
>
>i'm looking for a book on square plot gardening.  

Try Square Foot Gardening, by Mel Bartholomew.  It's available in any
large bookstore, published by Rodale, and taken from the PBS show of
the same name.

Good Luck!

Marylyn




From lcarlson@u.washington.edu Tue May 30 23:49:05 EDT 1995
Article: 72807 of rec.gardens
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From: 'Sadler' L Carlson <lcarlson@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: SOURCE-square plot gardening, companion planting
Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 10:00:51 -0700
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John Jeavon's How to Grow More Vegetables

On Mon, 29 May 1995, Enter Your Name Here wrote:

> i'm looking for a book on square plot gardening.  i remember seeing a 
> discussion here about it, but i don't remember any names.  i think harrowsmith 
> put one out, and i know that they had some articles on it, because my parents 
> used the idea last time they had a garden.  (eons ago)  
> i may be running late (the garden gets tilled tonight), but i would like to 
> have this set up as soon as possible.
> is there anything in particular that i have to watch for, or do i just plant 
> and watch the spacing?
> 
> also, does anyone have a good source for companion gardening?  i've read a 
> chapter in rodale's herb book about it, but would like more info.
> 
> thanx ever so much.
> mel.
> 
> please reply to gmxzf@StThomasU.ca   
> i don't get out much  :(
> 
> 


From eaplatt@worm.hooked.net Tue May 30 23:50:54 EDT 1995
Article: 72800 of rec.gardens
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From: eaplatt@worm.hooked.net (Elizabeth Platt)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: SOURCE-square plot gardening, companion planting
Date: 30 May 1995 09:42:11 -0700
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Also, don't overlook the books written by John Jeavons of 
Ecology Action.  They advocate the "biointensive" gardening 
method, which is fairly similar (though more comprehensive) 
than the "Square Foot Gardening" series (which I found very 
informative, too).  The titles are:  "How to Grow More 
Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You 
Can Imagine" (whew!), and "Lazy-Bed Gardening:  The Quick and 
Dirty Guide" (co-authored by Carol Cox).  The last title is a 
"simplified" version of the first book.  Both can be found (or 
ordered) in any good bookstore, or you could order Ecology 
Action's catalog, by writing: 

Ecology Action, 5798 Ridgewood Road, Willits CA  95490

They also carry a lot of books on organic gardening and 
companion plants, etc.

By the way, PBS also released a series of videos of the "Square 
Foot Gardening" series.  Doubt you'd find them at Blockbuster, 
but our library carries them in their videotape department.  
You can get the gist of the square-foot concept in just a few 
hours.  

>
>In <mailid.52.0009069E@unb.ca> mailid@unb.ca (Enter 
>Your Name Here)  writes: 
>>
>>i'm looking for a book on square plot gardening.  
>
>Try Square Foot Gardening, by Mel Bartholomew.  It's 
>available in any  large bookstore, published by Rodale, 
>and taken from the PBS show of  the same name.
>
>Good Luck!
>
>Marylyn



From richc@phantom.pac.sc.ti.com Tue May 30 23:51:25 EDT 1995
Article: 72788 of rec.gardens
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From: richc@phantom.pac.sc.ti.com (Richard Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: CHAT/Thanx 4 info ALTERN. TO PRESURE TREATED WOOD
Date: 30 May 1995 15:17:17 GMT
Organization: TEXAS INSTRUMENTS
Lines: 38
Sender: richc@phantom (Richard Campbell 575-4122)
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In article <3q7uak$gt1@netnews.upenn.edu>, pjburke@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Patrick Joseph Burke) writes:
|> A note of thanks to all those who replied to my request for a substance 
|> that could be applied to pine boards to make them rot- and insect- 
|> resistant, as I was not interested in using pressure-treated wood (PPW)
|> for my raised-bed vegetable garden. Predictably, someone wrote me 
|> stating that all the research that he had read indicated that the arsenic 
|> and copper in PPW *do not* leach out of the wood.
|> 
|> I don't doubt the truth of that person's experience, but hereby challenge
|> anyone to show me an instance of anyone who stands to profit monetarily
|> from the production or trade in PPW citing the studies that show that
|> toxic materials *do* leach out. An excellent, reasoned response to this
|> issue was posted by Allyn Weaks. He notes that sellers of PPW are requred
|> to provide you with written instructions warning you of its toxicity and
|> of its "safe" handling, something which lumber sellers don't always do. 

   Just a sidenote.  I saw a Victory Garden segment over the weekend about
gardening with handicap access.  The director of this program at the Arnold
Arboretum, in Chicago, was showing off the variety of raised beds they use
for getting the garden up to the level for wheelchair, etc. access.  Some of
their raised beds were constructed of pressure treated wood.  The interviewer
asked about problems with leaching of toxic chemicals and the director
replied that they had performed analysis of plants grown in the beds and had
found no evidence of uptake of toxic chemicals.

   Just the same, in building the last raised beds I put in my yard I steered
clear of the pressure treated lumber. 

-- 
Rich Campbell, USDA zone 7 (near Dallas)

                    You mean dig up the soil,
                    pull all the weeds, plant
                    the seeds, pull some more
                    weeds, water the seeds,
                    and pull some more weeds?
                                   - C.B. 
richc@ti.com


From keyes005@gold.tc.umn.edu Wed May 31 22:21:25 EDT 1995
Article: 72951 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!scipio.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!news
From: "LeaRae Keyes" <keyes005@gold.tc.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: interrupted fern mail order source
To: micheed@wkuvx1.wku.edu
Message-ID: <42564.keyes005@gold.tc.umn.edu>
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 13:53:53 GMT
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On 26 May 95 10:36:04 CDT, 
Ellen  <micheed@wkuvx1.wku.edu> wrote:

>I love ferns and have had good luck with the ones I have grown.  I am
>looking for a mail-order source for the interrupted fern.  
>Thank you very much.
>
>Ellen Micheletti
>micheed@wkuvx1.wku.edu
>

The interrupted fern (osmunda claytoniana) can be ordered from:
Shady Oaks Nursery
112 10th Avenue S E
Waseca MN 56093
phone: (507) 835-5033
I have ordered from this nursery in the past and have found them to be a 
good quality nursery.  
Hope you find this to be helpful.
Happy gardening!
LeaRae Keyes
keyes005@gold.tc.umn.edu

LeaRae Keyes


From saeedg@efi.com Wed May 31 22:24:11 EDT 1995
Article: 73084 of rec.gardens
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From: saeedg@efi.com (Saeed Ganji)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: ORG: wood ashes from fireplace
Date: 30 May 1995 22:22:01 GMT
Organization: Electronics for Imaging, San Mateo, CA
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SendtoJMA (sendtojma@aol.com) wrote:
: I want to clean out my fireplace and woodstove.  Is it too late in the
: spring to apply the ashes  to the garden?  Can I mix them with something
: else and use them, maybe diluted in water?  They'd add potassium to the
: soil, right?  Or wrong?  Good around shrubs?  Bad?  HELP!

Woor ash is just as alkaline as lime, ie it takes the same amount (weight)
to increas the pH by a certain number. Use it if that is your intention.

Also, I have a recipe for a home-made organic fertilizer that uses
wood ash. It is: 4 parts coffee grounds, 1 part wood ash, and 1 part bone meal.

as you know, coffee is acidic, and a source of nitrogen, wood ash is for
potassium, and bone meal for phospurous (sp?).

sg


From bae@oci.utoronto.ca Wed May 31 22:24:42 EDT 1995
Article: 72970 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
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From: bae@oci.utoronto.ca (Beverly Erlebacher)
Subject: Re: Grapes, roses, and others....
Message-ID: <D9ExL5.LAI@oci.utoronto.ca>
Sender: news@oci.utoronto.ca
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Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 22:39:05 GMT
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In article <3q0t1k$920@darwin.nbnet.nb.ca> foghorn1@foghorn1.nbnet.nb.ca (Craig Stewart) writes:
>
>	Perhaps you may help me.  I am interested in placing some
>grape vines in an unused section of my property.  I curently know 
>nothing at all about grapes.  What would be a good HARDY (emphasis
>on hardy) grape that produces a fruit suitable for making a wine.
>"White" grapes would be preferble, as I prefer a "white" wine.
>I live in south westeren New Brunswick, Canada, and the winters are 
>usualy quite icy, but not so frigid as farther north.  I'm not sure
>what zone I am located in, since it has been a while since I looked
>it up.
>
>	Question number two.  I would like to place a couple of climbing
>roses on trellices (spelling is NOT my strong point) and I suffer from
>a normaly inhospitable climate for roses.  The only bushes that I 
>have wintered well, if at all, are a couple of shrub roses.  I also 
>don't want a rose that will take over the entire side of the house in a 
>season or two!

I strongly recommend the Corn Hill Nursery in Petitcodiac, NB.  It is
run by Rob Osbourne, author of the book "Roses for Canadian Gardens"
published in the US as "Hardy Roses".  He has an incredible collection
of roses and has rated them for hardiness and disease resistance.  He
also evaluates and sells a variety of grape cultivars, both for eating
and wine making.  I've never seen his nursery, but his catalog is great.
The nursery is open for viewing.  It must be just spectacular in early
summer when the roses are in bloom!  I recommend you write or phone - 
the catalog is $3 I think.

Btw, don't take the recommendation of Himrod grape that someone offered.
It is a little marginal here in Toronto, it's not going to make it in
New Brunswick!



From steven@rain.org Fri Oct 13 01:01:16 EDT 1995
Article: 73875 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!hearst.acc.Virginia.EDU!maui.cc.odu.edu!xanth.cs.odu.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news.rain.org!coyote.rain.org!steven
From: steven@rain.org ()
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Sunset Western Garden Book CD-ROM
Date: 3 Jun 1995 15:31:08 GMT
Organization: RAIN Public Access Internet (805) 967-RAIN
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The Sunset Western Garden Book is now available on CD-ROM.  I'm 
considering purchasing it but I would like to correspond with someone who 
has tested it out.  I would like to know the following:

  * Number of files on disk
  * Megabytes on disk
  * Quality of pictures/sounds

If there is anybody in this group that has purchased this item, please 
Email me with your findings!  In return, I have compiled a list of 
popular CD-ROM titles with similar ratings results that I'd be willing to 
trade.  Thanks in advance.

Steve



                 ___________________________________________
                |                    |                      |
                | Steven A. Reynolds | Santa Barbara, CA    |
                |____________________|______________________|
                |                    |                      |
                | steven@rain.org    | Amateur Radio: AA6OT |
                |____________________|______________________|


From troutman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Fri Oct 13 01:04:17 EDT 1995
Article: 73959 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!troutman
From: Leslie Troutman <troutman@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: *** PERIODIC POSTING OF KEYWORDS ***
Date: Sun, 4 Jun 1995 12:20:51 -0500
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 30
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Periodic posting of keywords.  Revised 5/11/95

The following keywords may be used at the beginning of your subject line 
when posting to rec.gardens.

CHAT	for "how's your garden doing, what's happening in your
		part of the world," and discussions like this.
EDIB	for edible plants
GH	for greenhouses and indoor gardening
HERB	for herbs (ornamental & edible!)
LAWN	for lawn and pasture questions
MISC	ACK! I can't figure out which keyword to use!
NEWS	for announcements
ORN	for ornamentals
ORG	for organic issues (composting, etc.)
PEST	for pest control, including weeds, bugs, and other pests
SEED	for propagation techniques, including seeds 
TOOL	for equipment and techniques
TREE	for arboriculture
ZONE	for questions on zones and hardiness



Use of these keywords will make reading this large (and wonderful) list a 
bit easier.
Thanks!

Leslie Troutman
TROUTMAN@UIUC.EDU



From dharper@biddeford.com Fri Oct 13 01:06:06 EDT 1995
Article: 94603 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!newsie.dmc.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.biddeford.com!usenet
From: Don Harper <dharper@biddeford.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Raspberry-FAQ
Date: 10 Oct 1995 02:07:58 GMT
Organization: Biddeford Internet Corp.
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Have a question about your raspberries? If you have internet access 
then go to: http:www.wwfarm.com/
If you cannot get internet access then send your specific questions
and will do the best to answer.

Dr.Razbry


From dtmc@netvoyage.net Fri Oct 13 01:08:07 EDT 1995
Article: 94573 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!btnet!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.netvoyage.net!usenet
From: dtmc@netvoyage.net (dtmc)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Solar Plant Turner - plant.jpg [0/1]
Date: 9 Oct 1995 17:06:30 GMT
Organization: solar plus
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
     Boundary="*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*"

--*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Solar Plus presents:
                   The Solar Powered Plant Turner

see picture in Plant.jpg

  The Solar plant turntable offers a unique solution 
to phototropism.  It requires no electrical power or
battery for operation.  Its solar pannel converts 
sunlight or incadescent light ino electrical power
maxium load is 35 pounds.  With the rotating plant
turner, plants can absorb even distribution of sunlight
Send only $16.95+ $2.00 for shipping 
allow 2-4 weeks for delivery

 (Calif. Residents add 8.25% for tax)

          Send Order to: Solar Plus 
                         P.O. Box 382 #117
                         Walnut Calif 91789
--*-*-*- Next Section -*-*-*



From dps@hyperion.haystack.edu Fri Oct 13 01:09:29 EDT 1995
Article: 94862 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet
From: Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Suggestion for planting small seeds
Date: 12 Oct 1995 13:13:38 GMT
Organization: MIT Haystack Observatory
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <45j4a2$d5u@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
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>Cwbsatx (cwbsatx@aol.com) wrote:
>: When my Mother-in-Law received a dozen Roses in honor of her 70th wedding
>: anniversary they came each in their own little vial of water.  A test tube
>: size container with a plastic cap which had a small hole in the top.  I
>: have found these ideal for spreading seed which I had in the past spread
>: to thick.  Lettuce, parsley, Cal. Poppies, Poppies, etc all go into a
>: tube.  A "permenant" marker is used to label the container.  When it's
>: time to change seeds a little acetone removes the "permenant" marker and
>: even frosts the tube in preparation for the new name.  
>
>: You will be suprised how much farther your seed goes if you use something
>: like this and resist the temptation to remove the cap to hand spread the
>: seed because you think not enough is coming out.  It also eliminates a lot
>: of thinning later.  


Another trick I've heard is that you can "dilute" the small seeds by mixing 
them with sand. That way, you just pour out a stream of sand and the seeds go 
along. If you make the mixture something like 1% seed, 99% sand, you can use 
something like one of those sugar dispensers you see at lunch counters with 
about a 1/4 inch hole in the top. Pouring the sand/seed mix out, you are left 
with an easily visible line of sand showing where the seed is. It takes a bit 
of practice to get the right proportion and the right speed of pouring the mix 
out, but then it is still easier than trying to plant the seeds individually.

I usually start small seeds in flats, so I don't have to thin them in the 
garden. I start with one large flat of growing mix (peat-lite or similar), 
divide it into sections with wooden sticks (unless I want to start a whole lot 
of some plant) and sow the seeds into the sections. When they get 1 or 2 true 
leaves, I take them out of the flat, separate the plants and replant them into 
cells for further growth. That way I have only 1 plant per cell and I can then 
plant the resulting plugs at a controlled spacing which makes cultivation 
easier. It's more work to start but less work to grow.

The cells are those thin plastic cells that garden centers sell plants in. 
They come in different sizes and shapes. You will have to experiment to find 
the right size for a given variety of plant. You can save them and clean them 
at the end of the year. Use a weak (5%) bleach solution to kill any fungus or 
bacteria. Eventually they will get munched up, but you should be able to get 
several years out of them with some care. If you want a specific size, check 
your local greenhouse grower. (S)He might sell you a couple sheets of cells. 
They cost about $60/case of 100 sheets, so your cost might be $1 - $1.50 each 
for small quantities. The ones I use are designed to fit into standard 1020 
flats (approximate dimensions 10" x 20"). I've seen the empty flats for sale 
at garden centers.



From suzanne.lisanti@daytonoh.attgis.com Sun Nov 12 22:25:35 EST 1995
Article: 97197 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!hookup!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!ncrgw2.ncr.com!ncrhub6!daynews!ranger!news
From: Suzanne Lisanti <suzanne.lisanti@daytonoh.attgis.com>
Subject: Re: WEB Sites for Gardeners?
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: 149.25.55.36
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Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 20:10:49 GMT
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==========David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson, 11/1/95==========
>Can anyone recommend WEB sites of interest to gardeners?

>We do mainly perennials, prefer SE natives, have a lot of shade
>and are interested in ferns (and bamboos, too).

>Thanks!


If you are interested in SE natives and perennials, you owe it to yourself to
look at //nichegdn.com/  - Niche Gardens.   You will not be disappointed !!  
Wonderful page.   



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suzanne Lisanti 





From otcc@pacificrim.net Sun Nov 12 22:25:59 EST 1995
Article: 97884 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!baja.pacificrim.net!news
From: drdobson@otcc.com@pacificrim.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: WEB Sites for Gardeners?
Date: 12 Nov 1995 02:24:01 GMT
Organization: Pacific Rim Network, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <483ls1$3nj@baja.pacificrim.net>
References: <479h2a$21t@vulcan.netdepot.com> <47au1c$iid@news-2.csn.net>
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X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.03

In <47au1c$iid@news-2.csn.net>, Cheryl Netter <cheryln@arraytech.com> writes:
>zorro@netdepot.com (David Marcus & Peggy Lamberson) wrote:
>>Can anyone recommend WEB sites of interest to gardeners?
>>
>>We do mainly perennials, prefer SE natives, have a lot of shade
>>and are interested in ferns (and bamboos, too).
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
Hello Fellow Gardners;

I am new to the internet, but have found several very good garden Web pages:

http://www.nhn.uoknor.edu/~howard/garden.html
http://www.rt66.com/~telp/garden.htm
http://mirror.wwa.com/mirror/garden/spdrsweb.htm
http://www.olympus.net/gardens/home.htm
http://www.olympus.net/gardens/gardshow.htm
http://www.cog.brown.edu/gardening/
http://www.interealm.com/p/cnetter/
http://www.olympus.net/gardens/netnew.htm

ENJOY  :)
>

>
>
>
>
>



From tatum@mail.sdsu.edu Sun Nov 12 22:26:18 EST 1995
Article: 97674 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!newshub.sdsu.edu!NewsWatcher!user
From: tatum@mail.sdsu.edu (Tammy Tatum)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Master Gardener programs
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 1995 17:58:32 -0800
Organization: San Diego State University
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <tatum-0811951758320001@130.191.242.114>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.91.951106181939.13772A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> <47me98$j6u@artemis.it.luc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.191.242.114
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In article <47me98$j6u@artemis.it.luc.edu>, pschwal@orion.it.luc.edu wrote:

... snip
> The instruction is good, but always keep in mind,
> this is a Government Agency. For every $1 worth of instruction you
> get, you pay $100 in taxes for the program.
> 
> I'd *love* to hear from other Master Gardeners. 
> Patty

I don't know how the Master Gardeners Program works in your part of the
country but the way it is set up here in San Diego it saves taxpayers
money and provides services that normal could not be offered because of
the cost.  The instruction is free (you only pay from material cost). But
for every hour of instruction you receive you must contribute an hour of
community service. This community service take the form of answer folks
questions on the phone, giving presentations at community groups, teaching
seminars, plant show, etc.. So the first year you are a Master Gardener
you must donate 50 hours of your time to the community in exchange for the
the 50 hours of instruction you received. To remain active in the program
an additional 25 hours per year of community service and at least 6 hours
of continuing education is required. This mean our Agricultural Extension
can provide all kinds of services that they would not normally be able to
provide the citizens of our county (there just isn't the money to pay that
many agricultural agents). I think it is quite a deal for both the
taxpayer receiving the service and the fortunate few selected as Master
Gardeners.


Tammy 
tatum@mail.sdsu.edu


From Maja_Grip@mindlink.bc.ca Sun Nov 12 22:26:29 EST 1995
Article: 97826 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!agate!news.mindlink.net!mindlink.bc.ca!a11099
From: Maja_Grip@mindlink.bc.ca (Maja Grip)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Master Gardener programs
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 13:08:31 -0800
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <80188-816037711@mindlink.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mindlink.net

I'm with Marion Margoshes: being a master gardener is tremendously
rewarding, and well worth the time we put in (here at VanDusen Botanical
Gardens in Vancouver, each MG must put in a certain number of advice,
education and other volunteer hours to remain certified; though some do
only the minimum, many other people put in hundreds of hours each year.
        I enjoy the clinics, which are held at public gardens, the annual
exhibition, nurseries, seniors' centres, correctional institutes and many
other places. I learn just as much as I teach at every clinic, too.
        The training program is thorough and students must pass with very
high marks to become certified. VanDusen is a great place to train, as
Vancouver has a maritime climate (Canadian zone 8) and plants from all over
the world thrive here.
        Personally, I'd encourage any fairly knowledgeable gardener to
consider undertaking the master gardener program. If you don't have the
time to put in the required volunteer hours, though, or have only minimal
gardening knowledge and are really just interested in learning more for the
sake of your own garden, maybe it's better to consider taking a suitable
how-to course.
        Master gardeners are very popular up here, and I believe we perform
a valuable community service. And you know, all this learning hasn't
exactly hurt my garden...

Maja Grip




From pshaw@mail.comcat.com Sun Nov 12 22:26:52 EST 1995
Article: 97732 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!hookup!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!simtel!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.pitt.edu!dsinc!news.comcat.com!u022.comcat.com!user
From: pshaw@mail.comcat.com (Penny Shaw)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Landscape software
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 11:36:44 -0500
Organization: COMCAT Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <pshaw-0911951136440001@u022.comcat.com>
References: <47t17d$fki@news.isc.rit.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: u022.comcat.com

In article <47t17d$fki@news.isc.rit.edu>, "Barbara A. Stalker"
<BAS5010@RITVAX.ISC.RIT.EDU> wrote:

>Is there a software that will simulate the growth of plants from rooting 
>to full maturity? I remember reading an article about it and now I can't 
>find the article. Thanks for your help.
>
>Barbara Stalker
>Rochester NY
>BAS5010@RIT.EDU

Flowerscape will allow you to cycle through the months of the year to see
how your virtual garden progresses.

-- 
Penny Shaw
pshaw@mail.comcat.com


From magnusom@gort.canisius.edu Sun Nov 12 22:27:10 EST 1995
Article: 97962 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!pirates!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!ub!niktow!gort.canisius.edu!magnusom
From: magnusom@gort.canisius.edu
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Return of "Gardening Naturally" with Barb and Elliot on Learning Channel?
Message-ID: <8963@niktow.canisius.edu>
Date: 9 Nov 95 14:22:51 GMT
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     Does any one know if and when "Gardening Naturally" with Barbara
Damrosch and Elloit Coleman will return to the Learning Channel?




From mbm@panix.com Sun Nov 12 22:27:57 EST 1995
Article: 97769 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!purdue!lerc.nasa.gov!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!panix!not-for-mail
From: mbm@panix.com (Marion Margoshes)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Master Gardener programs ha ha!
Date: 9 Nov 1995 17:34:02 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <47tvkq$e7b@panix.com>
References: <Pine.OSF.3.91.951106181939.13772A-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> <47me98$j6u@artemis.it.luc.edu> <47orbs$sha@panix.com> <47qghv$cb7@castle.nando.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: panix.com

In <47qghv$cb7@castle.nando.net> martin kosiak <mkosiak@analysts.com> writes:

>mbm@panix.com (Marion Margoshes) wrote:
>>In <47me98$j6u@artemis.it.luc.edu> pschwalm@cantor.math.luc.edu (Patricia Schwalm) writes:
>>
>>>Lisa M D Innocenzo (lisadi@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
>>>: I'm intrigued by the idea of going through a Master Gardener program, and 
>>>: am wondering if anyone out there has experience with them. I am a RANK 
>>>: amateur (couldn't even get a Virginia Creeper to grow up a brick wall) 
>>>: but have become obsessed with gardens and gardening over the past year. I 
>>>: live in Chicago, and am considering enrolling in a program offered by the 
>>>: Chicago Botanical Gardens.
>>
>>>It isn't *offered* by the CBG. You would enroll with your Cooperative
>>>Extension Service office. I started out with Cook County, held at
>>>Friendship Park Conservatory in Elmhurst. There may be a waiting list.
>>>They aren't very efficient with their book-keeping, and are clueless
>>>about computers. The instruction is good, but always keep in mind,
>>>this is a Government Agency. For every $1 worth of instruction you
>>>get, you pay $100 in taxes for the program.
>>
>>>I'd *love* to hear from other Master Gardeners. 
>>>Patty
>>
>>
>>How cynical can you get?  If you arwe worried about this, you can make a 
>>sizable contribution.  Master gardenersd are expected to return what has 
>>been given to them byy volunteering in libraries, horticultural centers, 
>>or at the cooperative extension sites.  I have been a master gardener in 
>>Nassau County, in N.Y. for 15 years, have learned much, and have met 
>>wonderful people.  In my experience,at least in this program, they do not 
>>accept total novices.  mbm

>What I found out from my "master gardening" masters is that they are 
>mostly retired people there to answer the phones for the extension 
>office.  They were very freshman gardeners and they took an extension 
>course that was only offered during the day and "became" master 
>gardeners.  The ones I have talked to were a complete waste of time.  I 
>had a very hard time when I first moved to raleigh nc dealing with the 
>clay soil.  Until I talked to "experienced" gardeners and learned about 
>raised beds and the state mulch pile.  

>It was very funny that the master gardeners knew alot less than the real 
>experienced gardeners.  As usual none of these "masters" were connected 
>to any online service that could help provide them with information.  

>What I find is that through these electronic services I have found out 
>more about gardening than many "master gardeneres"  that I have come in 
>contact with.

>Also the true "master gardener" with real experience and info to share 99 
>times out of 100 has his own business, such as landscaping, or 
>greenhouses or something.  Because he can make money at it.  The free 
>"master gardeners" are generally free because they cannot make money at 
>it.  just my opion.

>martin kosiak
>mkosiak@analysts.com

I suspect that the individual Master Gardener programs have different 
criterea for admission into the program, as well as the level of 
instruction given.  The program that I was in wanted students with a 
decent backgroun, were carefully screened, and then were taught by 
professors from the land grant colleges, such as Cornell and Rutgers. The 
course was extensive and refreshers are given on a regular basis.  This 
does not mean that professional horticulturists don't have a lot to 
offer.  One does not negate the other.  I would be interested to know how 
other Master Gardener programs are handled, and I will refer the question 
to the cooperative extension agents in Nassau County.mbm


From LRFORTNEY@hep.phy.duke.edu Sun Nov 12 22:28:42 EST 1995
Article: 97711 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!pirates!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!simtel!zombie.ncsc.mil!news.duke.edu!hepmc7.phy.duke.edu!user
From: LRFORTNEY@hep.phy.duke.edu (L. R. Fortney)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening software
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:32:50 -0400
Organization: Physics Department, Duke Univ
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <LRFORTNEY-1011950832500001@hepmc7.phy.duke.edu>
References: <mmz-0911952220050001@chi2-024.wwa.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hepmc7.phy.duke.edu
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.6b4

In article <mmz-0911952220050001@chi2-024.wwa.com>, mmz@wwa.com (Mary M.
Zashin) wrote:

> I would like to buy a software package that would help me organize my
> garden planning....  I use a
> PowerMac, System 7.5, and have a CD-rom also.  Any suggestions or reviews
> from the virtual gardening community (say, virtual gardening is a lot
> easier than double digging, isn't it?) would be greatly appreciated.

   Right now there are three programs available for the Mac; one from
Sunset Books, one from Better Homes etc., and I can't remember the other
one.  As you might expect the Sunset one is targeted for California but
>from  what I hear it's the best of the three.  I don't have any of these
myself, but the serious gardeners I've heard from are not particularly
happy with any of these.

-- 
Lloyd Fortney ---Opinions are mine---


From cbull@ordata.com Sun Nov 12 22:28:53 EST 1995
Article: 97780 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!pirates!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.uoregon.edu!sixtyone.ordata.com!newsadmin
From: Carol Bull <cbull@ordata.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening software - Flowerscape
Date: 11 Nov 1995 08:37:56 GMT
Organization: Data Research Group, Inc.
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <481nd4$9pk@sixtyone.ordata.com>
References: <mmz-0911952220050001@chi2-024.wwa.com> <LRFORTNEY-1011950832500001@hepmc7.phy.duke.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: random05.ordata.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit)

Flowerscape for Windows or MAC from PC Connections at 800-800-0011 for 
$49.95.  I haven't tried it.

4 MB RAM, 10 MB hard drive space.  Described as internationally acclaimed 
program.

Let us know what you find.

Carol    cbull@ordata.com



From dragoner@cris.com Sun Nov 12 22:29:02 EST 1995
Article: 97850 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!news.sprintlink.net!news1.cris.com!news
From: dragoner@cris.com (Debbie)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Gardening software
Date: 12 Nov 1995 01:16:16 GMT
Organization: Concentric Internet Services
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In article <mmz-0911952220050001@chi2-024.wwa.com>,
   mmz@wwa.com (Mary M. Zashin) wrote:
>I would like to buy a software package that would help me organize my
>garden planning.  Right now I have a notebook (very retro) that is getting

>I'd like to be able to diagram my perennial beds and what's in them.  At
>the least I'd like to be able to list all my plants, where I got them,
>cultural information, and descriptions.  It would be nice to have some
>sort of plant encyclopedia included as well, plus some way to make
>experimental garden plans during the long, cold non-gardening months

I have just purchased LandDesigner Multi-media for Gardens from Green Thumb
Software.  I believe that this program does all the things that you mentioned. 

 I have a diagram (to scale) of my garden plots.  It has a library of plants. 
 And you can plan your garden and the eventual chages that you will make on a 
year by year basis.  I have not got much beyond diagraming my garden plots, 
and as far as how it stacks up against other programs, since I haven't tried 
them I can't give a comparison.  But I feel that I have gotten my moneys worth 
>from  this package.  I don't know if they have a MAC version but it might be 
worth looking into.  Or maybe someone else is more knowledgeable about this 
than I.

Good luck,
debbie


From trav@u.washington.edu Sun Nov 12 22:29:18 EST 1995
Article: 97687 of rec.gardens
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From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: organic fertilizers (TSC recipe)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:09:45 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
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After reading YET ANOTHER advertisement which really shouldn't be posted
to Usenet, I figured I'd promulgate the organic fertilizer recipe that
Territorial Seed/Steve Solomon have been recommending for years.  I've had
good results with this for all types of plants, over the past four years.

   4   parts  seedmeal (Cottonseed, Alfalfa, etc.)
   1   part   lime (Dolomite or Calcite)
   1/2 part   bonemeal -OR- 1 part rock phosphate
   1/2 part   kelpmeal

- Seedmeal provides nitrogen
- The lime offsets the acidity of the seedmeal.
- It takes more rock phosphate than bonemeal to provide an equivalent
  amount of available phosphorus
- Kelpmeal proived potassium, as well as micronutrients
- All parts are by volume
- For late summer, Steve Solomon (who founded Territorial) advocates 
  dropping the seedmeal to 2 parts, and increasing the kelp to 1 part

Organic fertilizers need to be worked into the soil under and/or around a 
plant, because they have to be broken down by soil bacteria before the 
nutrients become available.  Use 1 cup under heavy feeders (like a hill 
of squash or cucumber vines); 1/4-1/2 cup under tomatoes, peppers, 
broccoli; for veggies like lettuce I work about 1/2 cup under each row 
across my raised beds (that's maybe 5 feet).

If you live where the soil gets hot, the fertilizer will break down more 
quickly; but here in the Pacific Northwest, one feeding when you sow or 
transplant will probably last through the season.

In the spring, you might want to add a little bloodmeal, which is more 
water soluble (and therefore provides nitrogen better in chilly soil).

If you buy those little boxes, this will be VERY expensive.  I buy 40-50
pound bags at the feed store.  In that size, seedmeal is roughly $13, lime
is $3, bonemeal maybe $10, kelpmeal $35 (ouch!).  It lasts for years if
it's kept dry. Bloodmeal was about $30/50 pounds when I bought a bag 4 
years ago; I still haven't used half of it.


Travis


From trav@u.washington.edu Sun Nov 12 22:29:32 EST 1995
Article: 97688 of rec.gardens
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From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Organic vs Chemical: language vs reality
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:14:03 -0800
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I like what Johnny's Selected Seeds says in their catalog:

"When it comes to producing fine seeds or any farm and garden product, 
organic does not necessarily mean 'good' and non-organic 'bad'.  We know 
many first class growers using some chemicals who are taking better care 
of their land than some unskilled growers who avoid all chemicals.  We 
salute every grower who consciously works by whatever method to produce 
healthy products and to improve his/her soil.  Our health and our 
farmland are irreplaceable and should not be taken for granted."

>From  page 3 of the 1995 Vegetable/Flowers/Herbs/Garden Supplies catalog.





From allyn@u.washington.edu Sun Nov 12 22:30:27 EST 1995
Article: 97691 of rec.gardens
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From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Organic vs Chemical: language vs reality
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 23:35:44 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
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In article <47tllc$125@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>, Dwight Sipler
<dps@hyperion.haystack.edu> wrote:

>essi@ix.netcom.com (John E. Verin ) wrote:
>>A few months ago there was an extensive debate thread called "Organic
>>vs Chemical."
>>One idea discussed is that "organic" doesn't necessarily mean
>>healthy/safe, and "chemical" doesn't necessarily mean toxic/dangerous.
>>I feel this is true (basically nothing isn't chemical), yet some of you
>>(chemists?) vehemently defended the word "chemical," scorning so-called
>>naive people for accepting such limited concepts of each word. Yet, no
>>alternative terms were proposed to facilitate conversation of that
>>which is eco- and non-eco-friendly.

It's not that hard to say 'toxin' or 'poison' or 'pesticide', or even
'synthetic pesticide'.  The most important problem I see with the sloppy
language isn't necessarily that the language itself is sloppy or lazy (we
scientists and ex-scientists are often enough lazy amongst ourselves);
it's that the _way_ in which the use of 'chemical' is sloppy shows an
underlying deep-seated lack of understanding of the most basic principles
of chemistry and biology.   Principles that I was literally taught in
third grade (thank you, Mrs. Brummet!).

The world we live in has become extremely complex technologically, and we
in the US and many other countries are expected to vote for people who
make crucial technological/ecological decisions on our behalf, and
sometimes to vote directly on a technological issue.  One simply _cannot_
vote responsibly or purchase and use products responsibly without an
_understanding_ of the basics of science, especially biology and
chemistry.  If you vote with your emotions, or what you see on tv, you
will not get what you wanted, but what you asked for (and perhaps
deserve?), which is often a very different thing indeed.

Absolutely required reading: 

Author:       Edmondson, W. T.
Title:        The Uses of Ecology: Lake Washington and Beyond
Publisher:    University of Washington Press
Year:         1991
ISBN/Price:   0-295-97024-3 Trade Cloth $22.50
Subj (BIP):   WATER-POLLUTION.  LAKE-ECOLOGY

Edmondson says it all better than I can, and gives some enlightening
examples.  (His description of trying to educate a lawyer is priceless!)

The reason that the nit-pickers amongst us don't provide easy terms for
eco- and non-eco-friendly is that it simply isn't that simple.  You _must_
take things on a case by case basis, learn as much as possible about the
general principles, as much as possible about whatever you plan to use,
and as much as possible about the particular system that you plan to use
it on.  What is 'friendly' in one circumstance could be extremely
un-friendly in a different circumstance.  In the US, the label laws are an
attempt to help out a bit.  Even the unfriendly toxins would be less of a
problem if people would read and follow the labels, and the 'friendly'
ones can be a total disaster if used improperly.  Whatever you use, read
and follow the label.  It's not just a good idea, it's federal law.

As an example of a pesticide purchasing and use decision that requires
more than simple emotional lables and hype, let's examine in some detail
the use of a naturally derived 'organic' pesticide, pyrethrin, that Dwight
brings up:

>I missed the previous thread but I feel the above point has some merit. I 
>grow things "organically", but try to avoid any broad spectrum pesticides 
>(since I have a couple beehives near my fields). Other growers are also 
>"organic" but use pyrethrins/rotenone type things. I don't have a good 
>term to offer for "light" or eco-friendly (?) pesticides, but I will be 
>watching this thread for suggestions.

Pyrethrins (substitute rotenone or other plant derived pesticide if you
like) are accepted by the 'organic', anti-'chemical' crowd because they
are produced by a plant in cellular chemical factories, and merely
harvested and concentrated by humans, rather than produced entirely in a
human chemical factory.  One of the desirable characteristics of
pyrethrin, aside from its toxicity to quite a wide variety of bugs, is
that it is pretty safe for humans, pets and other mammals.  Seems like a
good deal, right?  But take a look at my earlier assumption that 'toxicity
to quite a wide variety of bugs' is desirable; is it really?

Well, not if you've paid attention in high school biology to the
predator/prey section.  Pest bugs in general are pesty because they eat
the plants that we want to eat ourselves, thus pests tend to be
herbivores.  Herbivores are prey, eaten by predators.  It is the nature of
prey to breed prolifically; they breed fast because they don't live long:
they expect to be someone's dinner at any moment.  Aphids are born
pregnant.  As you go higher up the food chain, breeding often slows down. 
Ladybug eggs need days to hatch, and there are only a few in a clutch. 
Once they hatch, the larvae take a long time to grow up enough to turn
into a breeding adult.  I watched some on my apple tree that took nearly
two weeks before they metamorphosed.  The other part of the predator/prey
relationship is that energy is lost along the trail from sunlight to plant
to herbivore to predator.  No animal utilises everything it eats; waste
products are excreted to become food in turn for the decomposer cycle. 
The result of this energy inefficiency is that prey animals greatly
outnumber the predators.  On average, pound for pound, there is ten times
as much prey biomass as predator biomass for each level.  So for every
1000 pounds of aphid there are 100 pounds of ladybug, and 10 pounds of
ladybug-eating bird and 1 pound of bird-eating fox.  The numbers of
individuals are even more extreme, because predators tend to be much
larger than their prey.

Who cares?  Pyrethrin is safe for the kids and pets, and has the Rodale
seal of approval; what difference does all that biology stuff make?

So, another bio tidbit:  any organism stressed by it's environment has the
chance to evolve a defense against that stress if it doesn't die outright
before it breeds.  It doesn't _purposely_ evolve the defense, it's just
that by accident and randomness some percentage of the population is
likely to be resistant to that particular stress, and therefore will
survive it.  Those that survive will probably pass that resistance on to
their offspring.  Say one percent is resistant and survives, and due to
the particular genetics, that causes half of the next generation to be
resistant, all of which breed like aphids.  You now have a problem...your
friendly, mammal safe, 'organically' sanctioned pesticide no longer kills
the pests, so you're forced to move to something stronger.  Something that
probably isn't quite as mammal safe.  And guess what?  The same danged
thing happens, and you have to switch to yet another, even less mammal
safe pesticide.

But wait, there's more!  Remember that predators breed more slowly than
prey, and that there are a lot fewer of them?  How does this affect their
resistance to those pesticides?  They evolve far more slowly on average. 
So you hit them harder with that first 'safe' pesticide than you hit the
pests, and before they have a chance to start recovering, you hit them
even harder with the second one.  A pest can sometimes bounce back the
very same year.  It can take several years for predators to return,
assuming that any at all survived the onslaught.  You might have to import
some.  But if you do that, you'll get a bug that really evolved for a
different climate, and may be less successful in it's new home.  Or
perhaps it will be so successful that it becomes a pest in it's own
right.  And in any case, you can only import a couple of species.  Pehaps
you wiped out hundreds.

But hey, that's not all!  I mentioned way back there that not every scrap
of energy is used up by the prey and predators.  There's plenty left over
for the decomposers to chew on.  Do please fall in love with your
decomposers, because the world would be a very messy place indeed without
them.  So messy that life couldn't continue, because essential elements
would get tied up and become unavilable for plants, and without plants,
animals die.  What does this have to do with pesticides?  Well, that
pyrethrin is pretty safe for mammals.  But is it safe for the
decomposers?  Many levels of the decomposer cycle tend to be insects. 
Hmm.  And how about the essential bacteria?  Can they survive being doused
with it?  How about the fungi?  And the earthworms?  Well, nobody knows. 
Nobody even knows how many species there are in typical healthy soil (but
it's in the tens or hundreds of thousands), let alone what they should be
called or how they react to various kinds of stresses and toxins.  What is
known is that the more species there are, the more stable everything is. 
If you wipe out a fraction of species, even microscopic ones, the system
as a whole becomes less resilient.  Take it to an extreme and imagine a
world that contains only grass and cows and humans.  Along comes a minor
drought that kills the grass.  Oops.  If there had been enough dandelions
in that mix, and violets and clover, perhaps the cows wouldn't have
starved to death, with us next in line...  This isn't as silly as you
think; it's precisely why the Norse died out of Greenland.  The climate
cooled just a little bit; they couldn't grow enough grass to overwinter
the cattle, and so they starved to death.

If a safe, 'natural' pesticide can cause this much chaos, how much worse
the synthetics must be!  Well, not necessarily.  Just now, most synthetics
do indeed have enough problems that for the most part I wouldn't use
them.  Small amounts of Roundup on bindweed and quackgrass is as far as
I'll go, and that reluctantly.  Humans are still rather clumsy infants in
the game of chemical warfare; plants and animals are far better and more
sophisticated at it.  However, knowledge of biochemistry is proceeding at
such a rapid rate that to read a book about it that's more than a year or
two old is to read a history book.  It is quite possible that in our
lifetimes we'll really understand enough to construct a pesticide that is
extremely specific to one particular species of pest, that doesn't upset
the predators or decomposers, and that is quickly broken down by those
decomposers.  One would still need to use it wisely, and probably only
when the alternative warrants it.  But at that point, the synthetic
chemical would actually be safer than the 'natural' chemical, and have
fewer side effects.

Dwight's terminolgy of 'broad spectrum' is far more useful and descriptive
of a pesticide than 'organic'.  The source of a pesticide is much less
important than how it works, and thus what it's side effects are likely to
be.  Most 'organic' remedies such as pyrethrin and even soaps, tend to be
broad spectrum.  They kill many or most species in the targeted class:
predator as well as prey for insecticides, the essential mycorhizal and
saprophytic fungi as well as the disease causing fungi for fungicides,
crop plant as well as weeds for herbicides.

The question you should ask about a pesticide isn't "is it 'natural' or
'synthetic'"?  Ask a lot of questions:

*)  How does it work?  Does it physically kill the pest (soap causes a bug
to drown) or is it a metabolic poison?  It's harder for a pest to evolve a
resistance to a mechanical threat such as drowning than to poisons, so
properly applied soap is better in that respect than pyrethrin.

*)  How long does it persist in the environment?  The faster it breaks
down the better.

*)  What does it break down into?  Some pesticides that are safe in
themselves can have break-down products that are worse than what you
started with.

*)  Does it percolate easily through soil, and does it matter what kind of
soil?  Some pesticides attach themselves very strongly to either organic
matter or clay, less strongly to silt and sand.  This holds them in place,
giving the decomposers time to do their thing and decompose them.  Some
don't attach themselves at all, and quickly wash into the water supply 
where aquatic plants and animals are generally much more sensitive to
toxins than land plants and animals.  People who live in areas with very
little clay in the soil, or who live close to streams, or just above the
water table, should be especially careful about the use of toxins.

*)  How toxic is it to: mammals; birds; honeybees and other bees;
herbivorous insects; predatory insects; other invertebrates; aquatic
invertebrates; other aquatic life; fungi?

*)  Does it bioaccumulate?  Does the prey which eats it store it in its
tissue, to be then eaten by the predator, who then stores it at an even
higher concentration for the next predator to eat?  Bioaccumulation is a
Bad Thing.  Choose products which pass through the beast.  As a general
rule of thumb, oil soluble products bioaccumulate, and water soluble ones
are less likely to.

*)  What are the inactive ingredients?  Do write your congress critters
about this one, and badger the salesdroids.  The label law as it stands
allows companies to hide some quite nasty things in the 'inactive
ingredient' lump.

*)  What goes into the manufacture of the product?  What wastes are
generated and how are they disposed of?  Even if it's the ideal pesticide
in all other respects, if it causes significant toxic waste to be dumped
in your air or water supply, maybe you should tolerate a few holes in your
apples.  Don't assume that 'natural' chemicals are necessarily better in
this respect.  It isn't really all that natural to breed a plant to
produce more af a pesticide than it would on its own, then grow thousand
upon thousand of acres of it, then mechanically process the plant to
extract the active ingredient...what do they do with their residues? 
Discharge it into streams?  Burn it?  I don't know, but if I planned to
use it, I'd find out...

How does one find out any of this stuff?  Some, such as the last two, you
may not be able to, because the companies making it aren't legally
required to tell you.  But much of the rest is available at the ExToxNet
site at Oregon State:   http://sulaco.oes.orst.edu:70/1/ext/extoxnet  They
have a large collection of pesticide data in a standard easy to read and
understand format.

>(I'm not sure how a pesticide can be eco-friendly since the pests are part 
>of the ecosystem. That's probably not the term I'm looking for).

Got it in one!  The best and most effective solution to pest problems is
turning out to be biodiversity.  Make your personal ecosystem as complex
as you can, then it's unlikely that any one species will get out of hand
for long.  Plant mixed-species hedgerows to provide cover and food supply
for predatory insects and birds.  Keep your soil healthy with plenty of
organic matter for the decomposers to work on.  Keep your plants healthy
not only by providing the right amounts of nutrients (test, don't guess)
and organic matter, but avoid soil compaction: don't till every year to
the same depth, never till wet ground, tolerate a mole or two, or a
gopher.  They are primary soil stirrers and topsoil builders, and more
than worth their weight in compost.  Don't plant monocultures - mix your
plant species to make the pests work for their supper.  Plant natives when
possible; they are better adapted to your climate, soil and pests, and
will better attract the insects and birds that you need.

And aren't you all glad that I have to go catch the last bus? :-)
-- 
Allyn Weaks
allyn@u.washington.edu
PNW Native Wildlife Gardening:  (under construction)
  http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/


From twater+@pitt.edu Sun Nov 12 22:30:48 EST 1995
Article: 97735 of rec.gardens
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From: twater+@pitt.edu (Thomas C. Waters)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Organic vs Chemical: language vs reality
Date: 10 Nov 1995 13:00:31 GMT
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In article <allyn-0911952335440001@cornetto.chem.washington.edu>
allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) writes:

> As an example of a pesticide purchasing and use decision that requires
> more than simple emotional lables and hype, let's examine in some detail
> the use of a naturally derived 'organic' pesticide, pyrethrin, that Dwight
> brings up:
> 
> >I missed the previous thread but I feel the above point has some merit. I 
> >grow things "organically", but try to avoid any broad spectrum pesticides 
> >(since I have a couple beehives near my fields). Other growers are also 
> >"organic" but use pyrethrins/rotenone type things. I don't have a good 
> >term to offer for "light" or eco-friendly (?) pesticides, but I will be 
> >watching this thread for suggestions.
> 
> Pyrethrins (substitute rotenone or other plant derived pesticide if you
> like) are accepted by the 'organic', anti-'chemical' crowd because they
> are produced by a plant in cellular chemical factories, and merely
> harvested and concentrated by humans, rather than produced entirely in a
> human chemical factory.  One of the desirable characteristics of
> pyrethrin, aside from its toxicity to quite a wide variety of bugs, is
> that it is pretty safe for humans, pets and other mammals.  Seems like a
> good deal, right?  But take a look at my earlier assumption that 'toxicity
> to quite a wide variety of bugs' is desirable; is it really?

I cut out the long and mostly irrelevant discussion.  You are getting a
few points mixed up and IMHO, are doing a real disservice to folks here
on the net.

First of all, it isn't acceptable to substitute rotonone for
pyrethrins.  They are different substances and need to be treated
differently.  Just like malathion and Sevin are different.  They may
kill some of the same bugs... but that's about all they have in common.

You miss one of the most important reasons for using organic
pesticides.. that thet degrade quickly and therefore stand less chance
of hurting the environment.  Safety to mammels is onlt one concern.  If
we look at safety to humans alone, Sevin is far safer to use than
Rotenone.  But Sevin is REALY REALY damaging to honey bees.  Rotenone
not nearly as damaging to bee populations.  Safety needs to take into
consideration a variety of facors, not onlt mammel safety.

You are quite true however, that organic doesn't mean you can be sloppy
with the stuff.  All pesticides are killers and all must be handled
properly and following the directions.  None should ever be applied to
crops for which they are not listed or in ways other than what is
reccommended.


You little biology lesson about predator and "meal" is also a bit off.
In nature, a balance exists betwwen insects, and in general, the
natural preditors keep the pest bugs in check.  Never totally gone, but
at low populations.  This is refered to as the economic injury level. 
It is the level at which serious enoughdamage occurs to warrent use of
some form of pesticide.

Without human intervention, theoretically all the bugs would keep the
bad bug population under control.  Unfortunately years and years of
pesticides has helped destroy the natural balance.  And there is in
nature, those times when devastation does occur.  For us gardeners, the
possibility of devastation is well above the economic injury level, so
we generally figure we must kill those bugs!!! 

Most predator bugs like praying mantis and Ladybugs consume many many
times their body weight in aphids, lepidopterous larvae, etc.  The way
you paint the picture is skewed in the wronfg direction.

Most organic growers don't rely solely on org.pesticides or benificial
insects.  We know that any good pest management program must be
integreated and involve other factors as well.  Mechanical control,
such as hand picking, traps, barrier plantings all have a place.  Too,
the timing of planting, and the timing of controls help keep pests
below the EIL.  When all these management stategies are combined, a
successful organic control program is in process.

It is true that pests will develope a resistamce to a pesticide over
time.  This will happen with organics too if over uesed the way the
chemical ones have been overused.  An integrated control program
however, does not suffer fromn that possibility.

While some chemicals are just plain toxic, others are problems due to
the way they interupt the overall garden environment.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, the use of resistant and tolerant
varieties helps.

The issue really isn't organic vs chemical, but rather the over dumping
of a pesticide(chemical or nonchemical) vs the manages pest control
offered by an integrated program.
 
> If a safe, 'natural' pesticide can cause this much chaos, how much worse
> the synthetics must be! 

A fallacious argument!!!!!!!


> Dwight's terminolgy of 'broad spectrum' is far more useful and descriptive
> of a pesticide than 'organic'.  The source of a pesticide is much less
> important than how it works, and thus what it's side effects are likely to
> be.  Most 'organic' remedies such as pyrethrin and even soaps, tend to be
> broad spectrum.  They kill many or most species in the targeted class:
> predator as well as prey for insecticides, the essential mycorhizal and
> saprophytic fungi as well as the disease causing fungi for fungicides,
> crop plant as well as weeds for herbicides.

And others, such as Thuricide are very specific.
 
> The question you should ask about a pesticide isn't "is it 'natural' or
> 'synthetic'"?  Ask a lot of questions:

You list really good questions.  Thanks for explaining them so well!!!

> 
> Got it in one!  The best and most effective solution to pest problems is
> turning out to be biodiversity.  Make your personal ecosystem as complex
> as you can, then it's unlikely that any one species will get out of hand
> for long.  Plant mixed-species hedgerows to provide cover and food supply
> for predatory insects and birds.  Keep your soil healthy with plenty of
> organic matter for the decomposers to work on.  Keep your plants healthy
> not only by providing the right amounts of nutrients (test, don't guess)
> and organic matter, but avoid soil compaction: don't till every year to
> the same depth, never till wet ground, tolerate a mole or two, or a
> gopher.  They are primary soil stirrers and topsoil builders, and more
> than worth their weight in compost.  Don't plant monocultures - mix your
> plant species to make the pests work for their supper.  Plant natives when
> possible; they are better adapted to your climate, soil and pests, and
> will better attract the insects and birds that you need.

Well said!!!!
 

Thomas C. Waters
twater+@pitt.edu
I always assume someone is gay unless they tell me otherwise.

"When evil men plot, good men must plan.  When evil men burn and bomb,
good men must build and bind.  When evil men shout ugly words of
hatred, good men must commit themselves to the glories of love."
                                        Martin Luther King Jr.


From dps@hyperion.haystack.edu Sun Nov 12 22:30:57 EST 1995
Article: 97806 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news-server.ncren.net!news.duke.edu!hookup!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet
From: Dwight Sipler <dps@hyperion.haystack.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Organic vs Chemical: language vs reality
Date: 10 Nov 1995 16:01:04 GMT
Organization: MIT Haystack Observatory
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <47vt00$pr3@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
References: <47o775$7c4@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <47tllc$125@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> <allyn-0911952335440001@cornetto.chem.washington.edu> <47vidf$806@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
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I think the discussion to this point has been very interesting. I 
would like to note that I didn't have anything specific against 
rotenone or pyrethrins, I was just using them as an example. I 
might consider using them sometime. However, I might also 
consider using a synthetic pesticide also if it does the job with 
the minimum disruption of the environment.

As I see it at the moment, the main things to consider when 
confronted by a pest problem are:

1:  Is there an ecology-based solution? i.e. (assuming we're 
talking about bugs for the moment) is there a bug that eats (or 
otherwise neutralizes) the pest bug? Can the predator be 
encouraged or imported without significant adverse side effects? 
(this question can be modified to consider fungi, viruses, weeds 
or anything else considered a pest).

2:  If not, is there another (possibly chemical) way to manage 
the pest? (In this context, chemical includes both naturally 
produced and synthetic chemicals). Will the chemical control have 
significant adverse side effects? (Management (as opposed to 
complete obliteration) is probably an important concept to get 
across and I should have mentioned it above.)

3:  You can probably define an adverse side effect for any pest 
control, either chemical, biological or ecological. What 
constitutes a significant adverse side effect? How can we weigh 
the damage caused as a side effect against the damage caused by 
the pest? It's not just economics here. It's also not just the 
environment here. This area is the one which is probably the most 
subjective.

Of course, when considering side effects, it's not enough to 
think only locally. All the pest control substances (or devices) 
you can buy have a cost to the environment due to the energy 
consumed in their production, transportation and application. 
Even the "natural" controls. Some of the manufacturing processes 
may result in generation of hazardous waste or biohazards. 
There's a lot to know about everything and I'm not convinced that 
we can know it all.

I suspect this thread has a long way to go.



From trav@u.washington.edu Sun Nov 12 22:31:01 EST 1995
Article: 97744 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!news.sprintlink.net!news.cirrus.com!bug.rahul.net!a2i!infoseek.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!saul6.u.washington.edu!trav
From: Travis Saling <trav@u.washington.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Organic vs Chemical: language vs reality
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:58:56 -0800
Organization: University of Washington
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91j.951110105140.4896A-100000@saul6.u.washington.edu>
References: <47o775$7c4@ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> 
 <47tllc$125@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>  
 <allyn-0911952335440001@cornetto.chem.washington.edu> <47vidf$806@usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>
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> ...You miss one of the most important reasons for using organic
> pesticides.. that thet degrade quickly and therefore stand less chance
> of hurting the environment.  Safety to mammels is onlt one concern.  If
> we look at safety to humans alone, Sevin is far safer to use than
> Rotenone.  But Sevin is REALY REALY damaging to honey bees.  Rotenone
> not nearly as damaging to bee populations.  Safety needs to take into
> consideration a variety of facors, not onlt mammel safety.
> 
> You are quite true however, that organic doesn't mean you can be sloppy
> with the stuff.  All pesticides are killers and all must be handled
> properly and following the directions.  None should ever be applied to
> crops for which they are not listed or in ways other than what is
> reccommended...

One thing that people seem to miss is:  If you routinely follow a 
regular, preventative application of "organic" (botanical is a better 
word) pesticides, you're mimicking the application of persistent 
chemicals; your pests will become resistant.  Witness the mutation of the 
diamondback moth in Hawaii and another moth (sorry, I don't remember the 
type) in Florida.  Both are now resistant to BT.

What's so awful about eating lettuce that has a few holes in it?  If you
have severe problems (like the cabbage maggots and cabbage worms up here),
try a barrier like Agryl or Reemay.  Pests shouldn't become resistant to
THAT (unless they grow to several pounds!  My floating row covers don't
keep the neighbor's dog out very well). 


Travis


From pollinator@aol.com Sun Nov 12 22:31:23 EST 1995
Article: 97749 of rec.gardens
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From: pollinator@aol.com (Pollinator)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
Date: 10 Nov 1995 13:36:03 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 44
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References: <MARKE.95Nov2140117@paranor.cadence.com>
Reply-To: pollinator@aol.com (Pollinator)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Subject: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
From: marke@cadence.com (Mark Evangelisto)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 19:01:17 GMT
Message-ID: <MARKE.95Nov2140117@paranor.cadence.com>

> I'm reasonable new to the New England area and just had my first taste
of
>a Macoun apple this year. It was wonderful! So, now I'd like to plant a
>couple trees in my yard along with the other fruit trees I'll be
starting.
>Problem is, I can't seem to find anyone that carries them. Anyone out
there
>know of a good source for this apple variety?

   Unfortunately Mccoun is one of the fine old varieties that has gone out
of style. Right now there is a big rush on Royal Gala, Fuiji, Jonagold,
Mutsu (Crispin), Empire, and Granny Smith, which are all good apples that
also are good for packers and handlers.

   Older varieties that do not ship as well are going, going, gone.  I
badly miss the Northern Spy (smells just like grandma's kitchen) which
admittely shows every bruise as if it were a total loss.  Mccoun is
another that is so delicious, if you have your own tree, and can pick it
and use it fresh.  Yummmmy.

   The only way varieties like this will be saved, is if people like you
demand them from nurseries, or graft/bud them yourself.  The nurseries
will make whatever is in demand, and would be glad to provide them, if
they could do so profitably.

  There are groups that are dedicated to saving and propagating old
fashioned fruits.  You might consider joining one.  And you might want to
learn grafting and budding, even if just for backyard trees.  It's not
hard.  Grafting is done in early spring, while the trees are dormant, and
budding is done in August.

  You can even put multiple varieties on one rootstock, solving the
pollinizer problem, if not the pollinator.  (Pollinizers are compatible
varieties fruit to provide pollen plants, like apples, that must be
crossed.  Pollinators are bees, or perhaps you, if you are patient
enough.)  Multiple variety trees are perfect for backyard growers.

Pollinator@aol.com   Dave Green,  PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC  29554



From pollinator@aol.com Sun Nov 12 22:32:07 EST 1995
Article: 97749 of rec.gardens
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From: pollinator@aol.com (Pollinator)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
Date: 10 Nov 1995 13:36:03 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 44
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Reply-To: pollinator@aol.com (Pollinator)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

Subject: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
From: marke@cadence.com (Mark Evangelisto)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 19:01:17 GMT
Message-ID: <MARKE.95Nov2140117@paranor.cadence.com>

> I'm reasonable new to the New England area and just had my first taste
of
>a Macoun apple this year. It was wonderful! So, now I'd like to plant a
>couple trees in my yard along with the other fruit trees I'll be
starting.
>Problem is, I can't seem to find anyone that carries them. Anyone out
there
>know of a good source for this apple variety?

   Unfortunately Mccoun is one of the fine old varieties that has gone out
of style. Right now there is a big rush on Royal Gala, Fuiji, Jonagold,
Mutsu (Crispin), Empire, and Granny Smith, which are all good apples that
also are good for packers and handlers.

   Older varieties that do not ship as well are going, going, gone.  I
badly miss the Northern Spy (smells just like grandma's kitchen) which
admittely shows every bruise as if it were a total loss.  Mccoun is
another that is so delicious, if you have your own tree, and can pick it
and use it fresh.  Yummmmy.

   The only way varieties like this will be saved, is if people like you
demand them from nurseries, or graft/bud them yourself.  The nurseries
will make whatever is in demand, and would be glad to provide them, if
they could do so profitably.

  There are groups that are dedicated to saving and propagating old
fashioned fruits.  You might consider joining one.  And you might want to
learn grafting and budding, even if just for backyard trees.  It's not
hard.  Grafting is done in early spring, while the trees are dormant, and
budding is done in August.

  You can even put multiple varieties on one rootstock, solving the
pollinizer problem, if not the pollinator.  (Pollinizers are compatible
varieties fruit to provide pollen plants, like apples, that must be
crossed.  Pollinators are bees, or perhaps you, if you are patient
enough.)  Multiple variety trees are perfect for backyard growers.

Pollinator@aol.com   Dave Green,  PO Box 1200, Hemingway, SC  29554



From bachman@anatek.mv.com Sun Nov 12 22:32:18 EST 1995
Article: 97791 of rec.gardens
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!news.sprintlink.net!mv!usenet
From: John Bachman <bachman@anatek.mv.com>
Subject: Re: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
Message-ID: <DHvo98.LJx@mv.mv.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 32bit)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: AnaTek Corporation
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 1995 12:05:31 GMT
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X-Nntp-Posting-Host: anatek.mv.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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pollinator@aol.com (Pollinator) wrote:
>Subject: Source for Macoun (apple) trees
>From: marke@cadence.com (Mark Evangelisto)
>Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 19:01:17 GMT
>Message-ID: <MARKE.95Nov2140117@paranor.cadence.com>
>
>> I'm reasonable new to the New England area and just had my first taste
>of
>>a Macoun apple this year. <snip> I'd like to plant a
>>couple trees in my yard Anyone out there
>>know of a good source for this apple variety?
>
>   Unfortunately Mccoun is one of the fine old varieties that has gone out
>of style.<snip> learn grafting and budding, even if just for backyard trees.  It's not
>hard.  Grafting is done in early spring, while the trees are dormant, and
>budding is done in August.
If you want to try the grafting thing - there is an orchard in 
Hollis, NH that still grows McCouns - Woodmont Orchard.  
Perhaps they would be willing to part with a few cuttings.  
603-465-7713.  Good luck.
-- 
John Bachman
AnaTek Corporation
http://www.anatekcorp.com




From aba@oc.com Sun Nov 12 22:32:50 EST 1995
Article: 97828 of rec.gardens
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From: Binion Amerson <aba@oc.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Daylily Web Site Updated
Date: 10 Nov 1995 19:04:56 GMT
Organization: OpenConnect Systems
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I am pleased to announce that I have updated my "Daylilies Growing
Along the Information Highway" WWW site. The URL address is:

   http://www.daylilies.com/daylilies

I have added a number of new daylily photographs that I took in Houston 
at the American Hemerocallis Society (AHS) Region 6 Meetings and 
elsewhere in North Texas this spring and summer. Also, I have added a 
number of photograps of award-winning daylilies thanks to photographs 
>from  my friend Bill Jarvis.

Be sure that you visit the Tours page and click on all the garden tours.
At the Gayle Garden, try my new "automated tour" where you can spend 30
seconds on each of 12 daylily photographs. 

Also be sure that you visit the Flower Arrangements Featuring Daylilies
section.  I have added photographs of two AHS Tricolor Medal winners.

Finally, I hope that you all notice my new colorful flower icons!.  I 
have redrawn them--pixel by pixel.  My pages now feature single and 
multiple red, pink, yellow, and yellow/red flower icons.  I tried to 
make the flowers look like daylilies.  I'm not sure that I succeeded; 
you be the judge.

A number of other daylily web sites also have new photographs and 
material. You can get to those pages from my Daylilies Growing at Other 
WWW Sites section.

The American Hemerocallis Society (AHS) recently approved an official 
AHS WWW site.  I will be working on that and may move material from my 
pages to the official site.  Stay turned for details as we till the 
various virtual daylily gardens.

Regards,

Binion Amerson




From taylor@premier1.net Sun Nov 12 22:33:26 EST 1995
Article: 97888 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!newspump.wustl.edu!simtel!news.net99.net!premier1.premier1.net!dynamic-37
From: taylor@premier1.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Vegetable Garden Software
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 95 03:26:16 GMT
Organization: Premier1 Internet Services; Sultan, WA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dynamic-37.premier1.net
X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4

     
I am in the process of putting together a software program for vegetable 
gardeners.  I need the names and e-mail addresses (or web sites) of 
people in agricultural universities or collages that I can talk to.  I 
need color pictures of all kinds of veggies from seedling growth to full 
grown and the sizes in between.  If anyone knows where I can get some 
freeware pictures or if you have some that you would be willing to part 
with I would really appreciate the help.  I also need pictures of 
diseased plants (with the disease identified for me) and insects (both 
good and bad, also identified).  And the last thing--I would appreciate 
your input, please tell me what you would like in a vegetable garden 
software program.  You can either e-mail me your responses or write them 
here.
     Thank you for your help.

           Regina Taylor   in Washington state
               taylor@premier1.net


From howard@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu Sun Nov 12 22:34:42 EST 1995
Article: 97772 of rec.gardens
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From: "Joseph W. Howard" <howard@phyast.nhn.uoknor.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: A Good Gardening WebSite
Date: 11 Nov 1995 04:45:38 GMT
Organization: The University of Oklahoma (USA)
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  I know, I know it is shameless.... but

  Check out Joe's & Mindy's WebGarden &
  gardening links at

  http://www.nhn.uoknor.edu/~howard/garden.html (netscape)

  http://www.nhn.uoknor.edu/~howard/garden2.html (mosaic or text)

  
  Joe



From niliben@Shani.net Sun Nov 12 22:34:49 EST 1995
Article: 97790 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!pirates!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.biu.ac.il!news.tau.ac.il!usenet
From: Ben-zion Zaidman <niliben@Shani.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: CAD Landscaping
Date: 11 Nov 1995 11:51:07 GMT
Organization: Enchanted April - Gardening centre
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There are some pretty expensive Software aimed at the 
higher end of the market (for architects and so...), for 
example Site Designer by LANDCAD INTERNATIONAL INC. that 
is sold for over 1000$, here in ISRAEL. Also one can find 
"modules" that plug onto AUTOCAD for that purpose. I'm 
looking for information about Software whose price range 
is aimed to the privet home gardner.One good example that 
i recall is 3D Landscape on CD-ROM or floppy disks and 
costed 50$ at the time. Unfortunatly i lost the vendor's 
name and location.I will appreciate any information on 
that specifice Software and others as well, including 
address and phone number.    



From jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com Sun Nov 12 22:34:55 EST 1995
Article: 97848 of rec.gardens
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From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com (Janet Wintermute)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: New Daffodil book reviewed by AHS
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:56:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470
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It's not too late to plant daffs for '96 bloom, but don't wait much
longer!  You might find Brent and Becky Heath's new book, Daffodils
for American Gardens, helpful in examining what they believe are the
best 200 cultivars for North America.  (The Heaths are the owners of
Gloucester, Virginia's Daffodil Mart and supply florists all up and
down the East Coast.)

Subjects covered include forcing paperwhites indoors, naturalizing
masses of blooms in wooded settings, and developing hybrids.  The
144-page book is illustrated with 300 color photos.   It's $24.95 (but
deduct $2.50 if you are a member of AHS and order it through them).

--Janet



From jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com Sun Nov 12 22:36:36 EST 1995
Article: 97849 of rec.gardens
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From: jwintermute@ids2.idsonline.com (Janet Wintermute)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: NE Wildflower Seeds
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 01:57:13 GMT
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The American Horticultural Society passes along the word that the New
England Wildflower Society is selling seeds or spores of more than 100
varieties and ferns in its 1996 Seed and Book Catalogue.

March 1 is the deadline for requesting the catalogue because seed
sales close March 15.

To obtain the catalogue, send $2.50 to Seeds, New England Wild Flower
Society, Garden in the Woods, 180 Hemenway Road, Framingham, MA 01701.





From gstone@mint.net Sun Nov 12 22:37:21 EST 1995
Article: 97958 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mint.net!usenet
From: George Stone <gstone@mint.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Johnny's Selected Seeds Catalog
Date: 12 Nov 1995 17:54:59 GMT
Organization: Maine InternetWorks
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Johnny's 1996 catalog is on press and will be mailed befroe Christmas. If 
you would like to be added to their mailing list you can send your name 
and postal address to johnnys@mint.net



From gstone@mint.net Sun Nov 12 22:39:10 EST 1995
Article: 97958 of rec.gardens
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech2!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!mint.net!usenet
From: George Stone <gstone@mint.net>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Johnny's Selected Seeds Catalog
Date: 12 Nov 1995 17:54:59 GMT
Organization: Maine InternetWorks
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Johnny's 1996 catalog is on press and will be mailed befroe Christmas. If 
you would like to be added to their mailing list you can send your name 
and postal address to johnnys@mint.net



