From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Jan 2 20:12:42 2000 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:12:42 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0921369867 0000001154 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 13 11:51:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17834 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17970 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:45:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08903; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:45:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08820 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:44:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.8.149.174] [209.8.149.174] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A6B821F014A; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:47:52 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:47:52 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Aria & Tyria Cucs: Worth the price? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 Dori, I'm going just the opposite direction with my shareholders. While they are slowly learning that tomatoes aren't available in June, I'm finding that they also like the unusual. "What I liked most about the program was getting vegetables I had never seen before." was a comment that I got from more than one shareholder. So, while I'm not going crazy with the ground cherries, etc. I'm growing a little of the less common veggies to give them a thrill (or atleast a new experience). This, though, shouldn't detract from growing plenty of the basics that everyne loves to eat. (by the way, I now have a bunch of shareholders that consider tatsoi a basic, everyday, veggie). Leigh >It all, entirely, absolutely, depends on the market. I don't have a market >here for fancy cucumbers -- people are looking for corn (in June), tomatoes >(in June), and you guessed it, watermelons (in June). Lettuce is a slow mover >and broccoli raab is going to be a hard-sell this summer (but I like it so I'm >growing it). I'm doing a limited trial of Holland cukes because they _can_ >sell for $1 each and I happen to have some trellis space. > >If you're in an area with some 4-star restaurants, expensive caterers, etc., >those folks will appreciate the fancy veggies and will probably appreciate a >local source for them. But unless requested specifically by members, I >wouldn't go heavily into the fancies. > >Good grief, it's hard enough to get them to try tatsoi. > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Mar 13 13:05:48 1999 -0500 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18918 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 13:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04036 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA12402; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:58:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA12321 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 11:57:56 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903131757.LAA12321@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 9561628; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:57:38 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "CSA List" Subject: "Pick-up Pointers" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 12:39:30 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Hello all, I am working on my farm's rules for the coming year. We have never had rules before but we now feel it is time to let the community know what to expect when they arrive at the farm, what is expected of them and what they can expect from us, the farmers. Do you have anything in writing? I'd like to hear what some of them are and if your life on pick-up days has improved since you sent it out. JO Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Mar 12 00:25:57 1999 -0500 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18396 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22751 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA25390; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:18:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (vesuvius.gr8brdg.net [209.96.136.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25312 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:17:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from greatbridge.net (cox139ppp233.gr8brdg.net [209.96.139.233]) by vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA30836 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:17:13 -0500 Message-ID: <36E8A43D.F187AA4D@greatbridge.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:21:04 -0500 From: Ben and Sasha Goldberg Reply-To: goldberg@greatbridge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Johnny's/Fedco/Stokes:newbie question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 Hello again, I have spent the last few months pouring over catalogs and books in preperation for starting my csa/market garden. I plan to start the csa next year. This year I intend to do some trials (hopefully) and maybe market some excess produce through a farmers market. Most of my literature leads me to three main sources for seeds: Johnny's, Fedco, and Stokes. I just got my Johnny's commercial catalog and sat down and did some comparing. I also placed a large (for me) order with Fedco earlier and have received it with no problems. Johnny's has the nicest, easiest to read catalog with the best info in my opinion and they also have the best selections. Fedco has substantially lower prices than either Johnny's or Stokes. So what does Stokes have? I am curious because I know they have a good reputation but, at the quantities I am looking at, their prices are not really competative and their selection is not exceptional. They charge for shipping (only $3.75 admittedly) and you have to order $700.00 to get a five percent discount. Johnny's gives 5% discount (2% for charge card orders) and free shipping for orders over $125.00 but adds a surcharge for heavy seeds of $.40/lb. Fedco has, far and away, the very best prices and discounts offering 20% for orders over $300.00 and 15% for orders over $200 cash, check or charge. Plus they give a 2% early bird discount. Consider this sample order. All quantities are the same with the exception of Big Beef (I had to do some averaging here because Stokes sells it by the 1000 count, Fedco by the gram and Johnny's by fractions of an ounce. For Stokes I used 2.23 X $10.83 (assuming 9000 seeds/ounce) for Johnny's I used their 1/4 ounce listed price. For Fedco I doubled their 4 gram price and multiplied that by .25/.282--8 gms=.282 ounce)). All varities are the same with the exception of fortex pole beans. Stokes does not carry them so I used emerite which seems comparable. The sample order consists of: Provider beans 5 lbs Fortex beans 2 lbs Marketmore 76 Cucumbers 1 ounce Sugar Ann Peas 1 pound Big Beef tomato 1/4 ounce equivalent and assumes that the total order would exceed $300.00 for Fedco and $125.00 for Johnny's. The total prices are: Stokes: 80.75 Johnny's: 83.45 Fedco: 52.00 (this includes the 2% early bird discount) This is not a good sample order for Johnny's because it includes a lot of heavy seed with the 40 cent/lb surcharge. Add Almira and Suhyo long cucs, walla walla onions and Sugar Snap peas to the above orders and Johnny's comes in at $109.75 and Fedco at $71.58 (order over $300.00 but no 2% early bird). Stokes does not carry these varities. I did not consider really large orders because I can't see myself ordering them but even the larger quantities seem to follow the same pattern: Johnny's and Stokes being roughly the same price while Fedco comes in much cheaper (always assuming a total order of at least $200.00 and preferably $300.00) . For example, 50 lbs of Provider Beans: Stokes $1.70/lb (does not include shipping which is only 3.75) Johnny's $2.25 (includes .40 shipping charge and takes into account 5% discount) Fedco $1.40/lb ($300+ order, early bird discount). one pound of Black Seeded Simpson might give a better idea of most prices because Johnny's would not charge a surcharge for weight: Stokes 16.65 (no discount) Johnny's 14.34 (with 5% discount) Fedco 10.00 (no discount) Fedco 7.80 ($300+ order, EBD) Fedco 8.30 ($200+ order, EBD) Stokes best price for Provider (if you are willing to buy 1000 pounds) is 1.22 or 1.15 (if your total order is over $2000), Fedco's is $1.33 (total order $1000.00, 2% EB discount), $2.25 is Johnny's best price according to their catalog but maybe they might give an additional discount for a very large order. Johnny's does much better in comparison to Stokes if you are not buying heavy seed. That $.40/lb weight charge really adds up and it is charged for beans, peas and corn. My sample orders are not complete orders by any means but any you you look at it Fedco's prices are significantly better than Stokes or Johnny's (unless you happen to need 1000 pounds of beans or comparable quantities of other seeds). Like I said earlier I placed an order with Fedco and it came without problems. They are very up front in their catalog about their company. They offer fewer services (no telephone orders, no pictures in their catalog etc...) in exchange for a better price which is fine for me. To save 35% I am willing to slog through their catalog and put in an hour or more filling out their order form. But I wonder if that is the only difference. Has anyone had any problems with them or their seeds? Is anyone out there a devotee of Stokes or Johnny's? Do they provide such better service that it's worth the price? I love Johnny's catalog and I have ordered from them (tools) and plan to order again. They carry many items that Fedco doesn't but I honestly can't see any reason to order from them in large quantities or from Stokes at all. What say you? Sorry for the long post. I tend to run things into the ground. Sasha From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Mar 12 00:25:57 1999 -0500 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18397 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:25:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22752 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA25478; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:19:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (vesuvius.gr8brdg.net [209.96.136.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25348 for ; Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:17:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from greatbridge.net (cox139ppp233.gr8brdg.net [209.96.139.233]) by vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA30841 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:17:38 -0500 Message-ID: <36E8A45A.F7B3025B@greatbridge.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 00:21:30 -0500 From: Ben and Sasha Goldberg Reply-To: goldberg@greatbridge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Aria & Tyria Cucs: Worth the price? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Hi all I just got Johhny's commercial catalog and they have two varities of Cucumbers with knock your socks off prices. Aria: at roughly 50 cents per seed and Tyria at roughly 70 cents per seed. They also list Amira which is another "Beit Alpha" cucumber but much more reasonable; 1 ounce is $8.75 which comes to less than 1 cent per seed. Has anyone tried these? Are they really that wonderful? are Aria and Tyria noticeably better than Amira? I realize that one cucumber plant can produce a lot of cucumbers and even 50 or 70 cents probably won't add even a nickle to each cucubmer but you can't get 100% germination and any plant can die. It seems like an incredible price to me but I'm thinking of at least trying one. I would dearly like to hear from someone who has grown one of these varities thanks sasha From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 13 17:36:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21711 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09890 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA24897; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:29:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24839 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 16:28:20 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dUILa18360 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:26:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9a6b9d0f.36eae606@aol.com> Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:26:14 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: "Pick-up Pointers" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 I've never gotten anywhere with rules but everybody has expressed appreciation for their "helpful hints". Go figure. ;-) Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 13 18:43:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22506 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24739 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27418; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:34:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27327 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 17:33:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool013-max12.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.3.213]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA27205 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:33:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990313152553.00807520@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 15:25:53 -0800 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: Seeking Boise, ID - BD/CSA/Market Garden In-Reply-To: <199903131757.LAA12321@firefly.prairienet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Hi y'all, I know I'm not supposed to do this, but can anyone recommend a petrochemical-free genetic-engineering-free farm in Idaho? More specifically, a farm near Boise? I need to find a supplier for a blind conference in mid-April. A lot of my friends who are blind are becoming much more health conscious, and they asked me to help hook them up with a local farmer. I requested a list by mail, but it hasn't arrived. We need to know how much to budget for the food, and what to plan on eating. Thanks, Fred FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Earning an MS in Sustainable Aquaculture at Cal Poly Pomona, I enjoy the rewards and challenges of living, learning, working, and playing. The dedicated, hard working team of students, staff, and faculty is the best part of being involved with the Center for Regenerative Studies Anyone *CAN* live a comfortable, modern life, without the big environmental footprint. http://www.csupomona.edu/~crs/ Check out my peers in the NFB. They have it together! http://www.nfb.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 13 19:59:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23163 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13074 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01787; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:52:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01727 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 18:52:03 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dAFVa26924 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:51:19 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:51:19 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Baby Pictures Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 The list of today's scans is located at http://www.agrove.com/031399.html Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From london@metalab.unc.edu Sat Mar 13 22:51:34 1999 -0500 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25331 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21030 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 22:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA08758; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:44:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08672 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 21:43:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.94.52.145] (b2-53-147.whidbey.com [204.94.53.147]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23171 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:40:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 19:40:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: To: From: Petersons family Subject: Rules, pick-up pointers Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Below are the rules I send out with my letter and sign-up slips in February. These evolved over 5 years of CSA -subscription type. Since we both work other jobs, one on the mainland, we can't deal with people who don't show up for their veggies and want to come at odd times. So far only one person has been offended when I didn't offer to refund her $ or give her extra vegetables for a day she forgot to pick up. The baskets don't always come back each week, and I know several are sitting at one member's home this winter - but so far it's been better for me to not sweat the small stuff, and keep a few extra baskets around. If everyone flakes, I put the veggies in paper bags until I get my baskets back. They get the message. I'm interested in how other CSA's rules work. MOLLY'S ISLAND GARDEN Here's how it works: By reserving a share you are committed to, and assured of, a whole season of fresh vegetables. Your basket will include a selection of those vegetables maturing each week. We try to include a variety and will share bounty with you if something is producing especially well. At the beginning of the season you choose which day each week you will pick up your vegetables: Tuesday, Thursday or Saturday. Long season available only on Saturday. This allows us to plan our picking for a known number of shares on each harvest day. You appear during the scheduled time period to take away your basket of food. You bring the empty basket back the next week and pick up the new full basket. If you can't come at the scheduled time, arrange for someone else (a friend, relative, neighbor) to pick up your vegetables. If you go on vacation arrange for someone else to pick up your vegetables . On the rare occasion you need to change days, call at least 24 hours ahead. It's important to come at the scheduled time so that your vegetables are at their peak. They wilt quickly on hot summer days. If you don't pick up the produce you ordered, I take it (the next morning when I go to my other job) to the low-income senior housing building where I work, and put it on the "free table." The vegetables disappear rapidly and the seniors are very appreciative of your donation. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 14 14:14:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16125 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11626 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09427; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:07:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09337 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:06:23 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dXYCa13170 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:03:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 14:03:51 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: New Farm Map Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 I did it! In between scrubbing these winter-grunged floors and playing with the new kids on their first day outside, I've finished the 1999 farm map and posted it on the website: http://www.agrove.com/99map01.html The details for each planting block (14 4'x50' raised beds in each) are at the pages corresponding to the block code, for instance 99mapA1.html 99mapD3.html Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 14 16:19:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19682 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:19:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09439 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15493; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:12:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (vesuvius.gr8brdg.net [209.96.136.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15426 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:11:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from greatbridge.net (cox139ppp168.gr8brdg.net [209.96.139.168]) by vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22424 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:11:27 -0500 Message-ID: <36EC26CD.CC30151D@greatbridge.net> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:14:54 -0500 From: Ben and Sasha Goldberg Reply-To: goldberg@greatbridge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: In search of a Mentor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 Hello The though occured to me, that it would be incredibly helpful to get some first hand info from people who are actually doing now what I hope to be doing soon which is to have a small, organic CSA/market garden. So, is there anyone within, say, a four hour drive from Hampton Roads, Virginia that would be willing to have me (and probably my two kids) over for a day? Sort of show us what your doing and how. I would even go as far as eight hours if I can't find someone closer. I live in Chesapeake which is in the extreme southeast corner of Virginia; go ten miles east and you hit the Atlantic Ocean, 7 miles south is the border of North Carolina. If you think you might be able to host us but want to know more about me, drop an email. If anyone is looking to start an organic farm but isn't sure where, I feel that this area has a lot to recommend itself and would be happy to give you more info. thanks sasha sasha From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 14 16:27:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19912 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10850 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15988; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:18:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (vesuvius.gr8brdg.net [209.96.136.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15942 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 15:18:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from greatbridge.net (cox139ppp168.gr8brdg.net [209.96.139.168]) by vesuvius.gr8brdg.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22607 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:18:25 -0500 Message-ID: <36EC2873.7A3F97B3@greatbridge.net> Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 16:21:55 -0500 From: Ben and Sasha Goldberg Reply-To: goldberg@greatbridge.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Bats? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 hello, I have noticedt that several catalogs offer bat houses for sale but no one offers bats. Why not? If bats are that great, why not sell them like bees along with the bat house. Will they not stay? Also, are bats subsceptible to rabies? One time a bat got stuck in between the screen and my kitchen window. I can't say I was very happy about this. I finally nagged my husband into prying off the screen enough so it could leave. It didn't. After about two days we called the SPCA and they came and got it. The guy who came said it was probably sick or something. If they will cut down the mosquito population I am willing to get over my squeamishness but if they carry rabies or other disease, I don't want them around. sasha From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 14 22:04:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29898 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28110 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA03763; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:57:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03689 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:56:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29839; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06545; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:56:25 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 21:56:24 -0500 (EST) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Ben and Sasha Goldberg cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: In search of a Mentor In-Reply-To: <36EC26CD.CC30151D@greatbridge.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 http://metalab.unc.edu/london InterGarden london@metalab.unc.edu llondon@bellsouth.net On Sun, 14 Mar 1999, Ben and Sasha Goldberg wrote: > The though occured to me, that it would be incredibly helpful to get > some first hand info from people who are actually doing now what I hope > to be doing soon which is to have a small, organic CSA/market garden. > So, is there anyone within, say, a four hour drive from Hampton Roads, > Virginia that would be willing to have me (and probably my two kids) > over for a day? Sort of show us what your doing and how. I would even > go as far as eight hours if I can't find someone closer. I live in > Chesapeake which is in the extreme southeast corner of Virginia; go ten > miles east and you hit the Atlantic Ocean, 7 miles south is the border > of North Carolina. Thought this farm might be out of range for you this is still a good CSA contact in this region of the US: Harvey Harmon Sustenance Farm Walk Softly CSA Bear Creek, NC (about 40 miles West of Raleigh NC) 1-919-837-5805 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 14 23:17:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02049 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01145 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 23:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07588; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:10:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07521 for ; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 22:10:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA21331; Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:10:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1999 20:10:10 -0800 (PST) From: Eliza Lindsay To: Ben and Sasha Goldberg cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: Seed companies:ethics in buying In-Reply-To: <36E98746.BF478054@greatbridge.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 Actually, I like Fedco and I like their philosophy but I have sometimes gotten far fewer seed than I was told I'd get. This is sometimes true of other places as well, fwiw. They also don't carry many of the flower varieties I want. :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 15 09:22:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17175 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22038 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27179; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:13:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27081 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:12:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903151412.IAA27081@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 168845787; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 14:12:22 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , Subject: Re: Bats? Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:53:47 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 My understanding of bats (admittedly not technical) is that they are clean and not particularly prone to rabies or other diseases. They DO eat tons of mosquitoes and will come to your bat house, if properly sited and constructed, of their own accord (though it may take some months for them to find you). Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Ben and Sasha Goldberg > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Subject: Bats? > Date: Sunday, March 14, 1999 4:21 PM > > hello, > > I have noticedt that several catalogs offer bat houses for sale but no > one offers bats. Why not? If bats are that great, why not sell them > like bees along with the bat house. Will they not stay? Also, are bats > subsceptible to rabies? One time a bat got stuck in between the screen > and my kitchen window. I can't say I was very happy about this. I > finally nagged my husband into prying off the screen enough so it could > leave. It didn't. After about two days we called the SPCA and they > came and got it. The guy who came said it was probably sick or > something. If they will cut down the mosquito population I am willing > to get over my squeamishness but if they carry rabies or other disease, > I don't want them around. > > sasha > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 15 09:25:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17274 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22696 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 09:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27485; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:18:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from waddle.excite.com (waddle-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.222]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27362 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 08:17:14 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from scorch.excite.com ([199.172.152.240]) by waddle.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990315141645.QPAV16648.waddle@scorch.excite.com> for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:16:45 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Bats? Message-Id: <921507405.12549.361@excite.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 06:16:45 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.151 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 Bats are wonderful animals. North america's only flying mammal. They eat their weight in mosquitos every night (moths too). There are only 7 species of bats in the US. The eastern brown Bat is the most common east of the rockies. They do not sell bats with bathouses because most are endangered and besides they are delicate mammals that would probably die if they had to be shipped. Yes they can carry rabies but this is not common. If you see a bat flying during the day it is most likely a young male that just got kicked out of the nest and is dazed and confused and not a rabid aniamal. Leave him be so he can find a new home (maybe a bat box). Bat Boxes are good for attracting bats but bats will not move right in. It takes them about 2 years to get used to the idea of a bat box but once they do get used to it they will use it. Old barns and shag bark hickorys will also attract bats. One of my favorite passtimes is sitting out back after a long hot day in the gardens and watch the bats come out at dusk. They are wonderful fliers. Sasha, get some bat boxes but don't expect them the first couple of years. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 15 13:13:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26482 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24745 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13521; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:03:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13445 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 12:03:14 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dPXMa20330 for ; Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:02:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c1f74d8.36ed4b38@aol.com> Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1999 13:02:32 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bats? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 If it makes you feel better, call them "Night Swallows". We encourage them here. My Ex used to catch them in Pyrex jars so we could look at them close-up before releasing them outside. At the time we were living in a 200-year-old former stagecoach stop at the head of a 50-acre beaver lake. Having bats in the crawlspace above our second story apartment only became a problem because the new owners didn't clean it out when the bats moved out for the winter, and the guano accumulation became a health hazard for us after a couple of years. I sweep out my hayloft twice a year and designed my barn for easy access for bats and swallows, plus I've mounted bat houses in the upper sections of the lean-to on the west and north sides of the barn. PS -- they're ugly little critters but fascinating. PPS -- young CSA visitors at our bonfire/stargazing parties seem to be much more comfortable with "night swallows" than they would be with "bats". Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 06:46:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27566 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA20922 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10325; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:39:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from stinger.excite.com (stinger-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.220]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10278 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 05:38:31 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from canyon.excite.com ([199.172.152.178]) by stinger.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990316113801.FWZF11158.stinger@canyon.excite.com>; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:38:01 -0800 To: BRateaver@aol.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Rebuilding a CSA after the first year-Changes Message-Id: <921584280.14169.320@excite.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:38:00 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.212 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 The reason I don't want to do delivery is a CSA is supposed to get folks back in touch with the land and the farm. If you deliver to them they will not come to farm at all. Why do a CSA if people won't come to "their" farm? I make most of my money doing markets and selling to co-ops. I do the CSA to try and educate. Yes, I have probably made it sound like a hassle and it is and most likely will be for a few more years as we and our members get used to this idea. We do not depend on members for real work , though we actually have 2 folks that have a lot of proffessional garden exp. but the rest do not and I realize what we are working a bunch of folks that probably do not even realize that seeds will produce plants. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 07:37:23 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28585 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29664 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA11917; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:30:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11850 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 06:29:28 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dUPTa18651 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:28:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:28:55 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Rebuilding a CSA after the first year-Changes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 In a message dated 3/16/99 6:40:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, goodows@excite.com writes: << If you deliver to them they will not come to farm at all. Why do a CSA if people won't come to "their" farm? >> I figure that any connection is better than no connection, so I deliver to drop sites and include "newsletter" sheets with pictures, offer extra perks to those members who do come to the farm ("picked fresh while you wait", for instance). But my days of door-to-door delivery are done, I just don't have time for that. Building the connection can take quite a while. Human beings are naturally resistant to change, and back in the days of the ice ages that was A Good Thing -- it's why our ancestors learned to master fire and sew animal skins together to survive and ultimately produce us. When I remember to remember this, I don't have as much impatience with this tendency as I otherwise might, though it's still amazing to me just how thick some people can be. Life has been much easier for me since I decided that nobody needs fixing; "The beauty of the flower is sufficient unto itself." Heck, for some people just eating vegetables is a new adventure. I haven't had the favorable response I expected from the local Vegetarian Society, for instance, whose members seem to strongly resent my suggestion last year that if they're doing vegetarianism for their health but they're still ingesting pesticides and other poisons they aren't doing themselves any big favors. Seemed like an obvious and innocent enough statement to me. Like I said, thick. So any baby step in the Informed direction is a step in the right direction and I'll count each one as a success. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 08:40:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00585 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11835 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14557; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:32:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14444 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 07:31:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D5T8SLUD; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:31:02 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:25:57 -0500 Subject: Monsanto on NPR All things Considered tonight (3/16) at 5pm Message-ID: <19990316.082611.-431763.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Be sure and catch this one folks....Monsanto is going to explain how they wanted to 'end world hunger' and wound up becoming 'public enemy #1'. (the quotes are from NPR's teaser.) Happy Growing, Betsy Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 09:43:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01703 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24441 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18658; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:35:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18575; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:34:35 -0600 (CST) From: ChilcoteR@aol.com Received: from ChilcoteR@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 2BCa029811; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:22:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:22:52 EST To: mesa@hooked.net, csa-l@prairienet.org, csa-1@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Lauren, the CSA bounces back--could you forward this message? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 Please post the following on your list serve immediately. We wish to fill this position immediatley. ________ Farmer-Manager Position Laganza Farm is seeking an experienced farmer familiar with organic and preferably biodynamic methods to farm and further develop an existing 20-acre organic orchard and farm. Work can begin immediately. The farmer would also be involved in working with and servicing a CSA through networking in the nearby Temecula and Laguna Beach communities. Laganza farm, established in l989 and located in Aguanga in southern Riverside County, is CCOF and Demeter organic-certified; and in process of full demeter biodynamic certification. Some ll00 trees (more than 20 varieties of apple plus peach, pear, almond and cherry) and several hundred grape vines comprise the farm; a small vegetable garden with plans for expansion; and a one-acre field for vegetables with possibilities of expansion as well, and the orchard could also be expanded. The farm is a demonstration site and field station for the EOS Institute and Permaculture Institute of Southern California which conduct workshops in accordance with the implementation of their comprehensive permaculture plan which envisages an expanded vegetable and herb farming, and other projects. Two to four interns or apprendices are expected to work during the season. Housing is available on site, funds for food and living and for some farm investment are available through outside grants, but the livelihood of the farmer will ultimately be dependent on his/ her production and marketing through a CSA and existing wholesale and farmers markets. An application letter, resume of experience, and at least two references should be mailed to , Laganza Farm, c/o Eos Institute, Laguna Beach CA 92652. For more information call 949-497-2218 or 949-497-4401. We desire to fill this position immediately. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 10:02:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02059 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27977 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20221; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:54:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20151 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 08:54:15 -0600 (CST) From: sbonney@iquest.net Received: (qmail 11651 invoked from network); 16 Mar 1999 14:54:14 -0000 Received: from laf-0000-16.iquest.net (HELO default) (204.95.254.176) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 16 Mar 1999 14:54:14 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990316100321.00a1c700@iquest.net> X-Sender: sbonney@iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:03:21 -0500 To: "CSA List" Subject: Solviva Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 I have just returned from the Ohio Ecological Food and Farming Association's annual conference where Anna Edey was a keynote speaker and workshop presenter. Wow! Her book, Solviva: How to Grow $500,000 on One Acre and Peace on Earth is fabulous and covers many of the subjects we often discuss: permaculture, wastewater management, greenhouse design, sustainable food production, energy capture, etc. Surprisingly, she doesn't incorporate fish into her system. There is plenty of brain food here, however, and presents opportunities for a four season CSA ion cold climates. Steve Steve Bonney, President Sustainable Earth a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through sustainable agriculture 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 11:30:57 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04574 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19774 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27094; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:22:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from ic4.ithaca.edu (ic4.ithaca.edu [147.129.1.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27003 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 10:21:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from ithaca.edu (ic069163.ithaca.edu [147.129.69.163]) by ic4.ithaca.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #30132) with ESMTP id <01J8W9UJJ43E001LQL@ic4.ithaca.edu> for CSA-L@prairienet.org; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:20:43 EST Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:23:03 -0500 From: Debbie Teeter Subject: Re: Delivering to Shareholders vs. Farm Pick-up, working shareholders To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Message-id: <36EE8567.84DF30E3@ithaca.edu> Organization: Ithaca College MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <921584280.14169.320@excite.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 We're lucky in that many of our shareholders live close enough to the farm that they prefer to pick-up here. We deliver to a downtown pick-up point for those who would find required farm pick-up a hardship. As an added incentive, we give a minimal discount ($10 for the season) to those who pick-up on the farm (on farm pick-ups are much easier for us, plus we save gas/wear & tear on the vehicle, so well worth discount). We are available at both pick-ups, so we get the same interaction with all shareholders. >From talking to other farmers, I gather many are quite a distance from their shareholders, and they really need to be delivering to strategic drop off points. This year we're trying something new - we're offering home delivery within a 5 mile radius of the farm or downtown for an additional $25 for the season. We just sort of pulled this figure out of the air, not really having much to base it on. This is something we've resisted, as we think the weekly contact at deliveries is very important, BUT, over the years (this is our 7th season), we've seen that for some folks the pick-ups can a real hardship. So far we've only had two folks sign-up for delivery, both long term shareholders - one with a chronic debilitating illness (& she only wants it delivered when she doesn't show up) and the other an older single woman who frequently works late and therefore misses the delivery. So at this point, it looks like this is a service that is really helpful for shareholders - at least for us. Also, both these folks live only a few blocks from the downtown delivery location. Our shareholders are not required to work, but receive a discount if the do. About 90% of our shareholders work, some for the enjoyment of the experience, others to reduce their costs. Our experience has been very good. We work WITH shareholders, ususally in teams of 2 or 4, showing them exactly what to do and keeping an eye on them in the beginning to correct any errors. They very quickly become adept at the task at hand, and are proud of their new skills and seem genuinely pleased when we hook them up with a newcomer & sort of put them "in charge" of that 2 person team. Over the years we've tried numerous strategies for scheduling workers. We started out with the start-of-the-year-rigid-schedule thing and it was a complete failure. Work times would roll around, it'd be raining, people had forgotten, what was sheduled to be done neded to be done a couple of days earlier, OR something WE wanted to do instead came up. What we do now is this: For work before deliveries start, we get on the phone not more than a week ahead and call a few shareholders, and that's all it usually takes to get the help we need when we want it, tell them what we need help with and when. After the season starts we do it by the week On farm and downtown folks pick-up on different days, so we can be very accurate about when we need help and for what. We add a notaion on our "What's in the Bag this Week" board what we're doing and when (in case it's a little hectic), then we ask working shareholders if the can make it. We have no problem with no shows, people call if it turns out they can't make it, and since you pretty much know what the weather's going to be like there are few weather problems. This works for us. In contrast to Dori's "potato nightmare", last spring we planted 500 pounds of potatoes and weeded and mulched the blueberries in one four hour work session with the help of 5 shareholders. The first two arrived, I sat with them in the shade of some sapings lining the garden and we began cutting up potatoes as Alan ran the tiller down the field with the hiller attachment. When we had a 5 gallon bucket ready, he started planting. Shortly thereafter another shareholder arrived, we had another 5 gallon bucket ready, so one of the cutters moved to planting with Alan and the new arrival started cutting (these 3 were all new working shareholders). A little while later the last two arrived, I left my by-now competent cutters to finish the task at hand, took the new comers (both returning working shareholders from the year before) to the blueberrries, showed them the plants, put one on one end of the row, the other a third of the way down, and me 2/3's down, and we all worked in the same direction. When we finished weeding, we went and shoveled mulch into the lawn tractor's tow-behind trailer, I drove it to the berry bushes, and we all shoveled them out. We made quite a few trips like this. Then we put tomato cages around the plants and were done. In the meantime, the cutters got ahead of the planters, so Alan took another one into the field, got them planting (which was just dropping the chunks into the trench at the desired spacing), let the planters continue while he finished tilling the trenches needed. By the time he was down with that, the cutter was done and moved to planting, with able direction from the two other planters. Alan starting covering the planted tomatoes. When the planters were done, Alan showed them how to cover, and with four people doing it the job was completed in no time. And, believe it or not, that is our typical working shareholder experience. Other things we do is have a "shareholder area" in our garage (it's a big garage), with tools, 5 gallon buckets, gloves and a sign-in sheet. We tell shareholders to come dressed appropriately, wear a hat and bring gloves if they have them. When they arrive, we start in that area, give them a little orientation if they're new, talk about what we're doing that day and decide what tools we need. Typically everybody gets a 5 gallon bucket, puts their preferred hand tools in it, and whatever else we might need (baling twine, drinking cups, etc) and out we go. The buckets are handy for lots of things in the garden: weeding into, hauling mulch, and make moving around with all your stuff easier. We ALWAYS provide a big insulated cooler of ice water or herbal caffine-free iced tea (usually the latter) and encourage folks to take drink breaks - we take them too! Finally, we have an outdoor wash stand for folks to clean up when they're finished (they're welcome to use our bathroom, too) the area is an old sink mounted on a scrap lumber frame draining into a 5 gallon bucket with the hose attached to the facet - very low-tech. One last thing: we encourage children in and around the garden. If they want to work, fine, if they want to play, that's okay too. Our experience is they do very little damage. If we have a child who's a little overactive and/or really needs to be physically close to their parents, we find a task that needs to be done on or near the edge of the garden. Our garden plots are mowed lawn on most sides. Whew! Hope folks find some of this helpful! Debbie Teeter A.J. Teeter Farm Ithaca NY goodows@excite.com wrote: > The reason I don't want to do delivery is a CSA is supposed to get folks > back in touch with the land and the farm. If you deliver to them they will > not come to farm at all. Why do a CSA if people won't come to "their" farm? > I make most of my money doing markets and selling to co-ops. I do the CSA to > try and educate. Yes, I have probably made it sound like a hassle and it is > and most likely will be for a few more years as we and our members get used > to this idea. > We do not depend on members for real work , though we actually have 2 folks > that have a lot of proffessional garden exp. but the rest do not and I > realize what we are working a bunch of folks that probably do not even > realize that seeds will produce plants. > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl > > _______________________________________________________ > Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 12:13:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05452 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00854 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00385; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:05:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00307 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:04:56 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dZOIa18651 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:49:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <943a7499.36ee8b98@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:49:28 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Rebuilding a CSA after the first year-Changes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 << Why do a CSA if people won't come to "their" farm? I make most of my money doing markets and selling to co-ops. I do the CSA to try and educate. >> Nice thread, loaded with many truths. As a parent with three school-age kids (6,8,&10) I don't have much extra time and patience to reach out to reluctant adults. It is imperative that my children "get it." I must develop a different approach for each as they are strongly individualistic. So I am in training to diversify my approach and recognize when I am offending people by the simple truths I've come to know. I used to be defensive when people would challenge my pricing at the market or complain of a flea beetle hole in their salad mix. But I've learned that these are really opportunities for the complainer to learn if I can phrase a response that informs them without insulting their values. We only have on farm pick up. CSA members and their families are rewarded for coming to the farm with u-pick opportunities for straw berries, blue berries, raspberries, etc. You know, those labor intensive fruits and extras we can't pick for the whole CSA. The u-picks have to pick some for the CSA as trade because we do have a number of people who are physically unable to collect their own. Yet these are the ones who come by and just sit, breathe deep, listen to the songs of the wind and genuinely "connect." They greet the other members, distract the two-year-olds and give my partner and I advice. Our greatest tool to getting people to the farm is the local Farmer's Market. When customers ask, "How come you don't have much asparagus anymore? Or Why do you run out of salad mix by 11:00am?" We just shrug our shoulders and say that the CSA gets first pick and some extras. This is what is left over this week. Our membership has grown without any other marketing from 20 the first year to 75 this year. The pick ups start in five weeks and we are full. My most favorite organic chemistry professor taught from the perspective of, "I've got a secret, and I hope you are clever enough to discover it for yourself!" Adults love competition. As a farmer, teacher, parent and partner I always reward effort with positive outcomes. Lucy and Dori are both correct. Its just that Dori is a couple of light years ahead of most of us. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 13:09:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07126 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:09:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14126 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07810; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:00:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from mom.hooked.net (root@mom.hooked.net [206.80.6.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07522 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:59:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from [206.169.227.230] (libya-230.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.227.230]) by mom.hooked.net (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19471; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:59:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903161759.JAA19471@mom.hooked.net> Subject: Fabulous Farm Manager position! Date: Tue, 16 Mar 99 10:01:44 -0800 x-sender: mesa@mail.hooked.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: "Lauren E. Augusta" To: "CSA member list" , "BDA" , "Sustag" , "Northeast Food Systems" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 ________ Farmer-Manager Position in So. California--- Laganza Farm is seeking an experienced farmer familiar with organic and preferably biodynamic methods to farm and further develop an existing 20-acre organic orchard and farm. Work can begin immediately. The farmer would also be involved in working with and servicing a CSA through networking in the nearby Temecula and Laguna Beach communities. Laganza farm, established in l989 and located in Aguanga in southern Riverside County, is CCOF and Demeter organic-certified; and in process of full demeter biodynamic certification. Some ll00 trees (more than 20 varieties of apple plus peach, pear, almond and cherry) and several hundred grape vines comprise the farm; a small vegetable garden with plans for expansion; and a one-acre field for vegetables with possibilities of expansion as well, and the orchard could also be expanded. The farm is a demonstration site and field station for the EOS Institute and Permaculture Institute of Southern California which conduct workshops in accordance with the implementation of their comprehensive permaculture plan which envisages an expanded vegetable and herb farming, and other projects. Two to four interns or apprendices are expected to work during the season. Housing is available on site, funds for food and living and for some farm investment are available through outside grants, but the livelihood of the farmer will ultimately be dependent on his/ her production and marketing through a CSA and existing wholesale and farmers markets. An application letter, resume of experience, and at least two references should be mailed to: Laganza Farm, c/o Eos Institute, Laguna Beach CA 92652. For more information call 949-497-2218 or 949-497-4401. We desire to fill this position immediately. ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 16:27:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12770 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03880 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26275; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:19:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25312 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:12:56 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dHYa016736 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:55:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8744e375.36eec554@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 15:55:48 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Rebuilding a CSA after the first year-Changes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 In a message dated 3/16/99 12:06:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, SCook21809@aol.com writes: << Lucy and Dori are both correct. Its just that Dori is a couple of light years ahead of most of us. >> Say WHAT???? I'm just grubbing in the dirt like everybody else. Dori From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 17:59:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16249 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00222 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02435; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:41:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com ([209.5.212.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02316 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 16:40:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp45.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.45]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA02584 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:40:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990316173918.00854bb0@vaxxine.com> X-Sender: laura_s@vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:39:18 -0500 To: "CSA List" From: Laura Sabourin Subject: Re: Solviva In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316100321.00a1c700@iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Did you buy the book ? Does it have substance ? How much was it ? and where can one purchase it ? >workshop presenter. Wow! Her book, Solviva: How to Grow $500,000 on One >Acre and Peace on Earth is fabulous and covers many of the subjects we >often discuss: permaculture, wastewater management, greenhouse design, >sustainable food production, energy capture, etc. Surprisingly, she >doesn't incorporate fish into her system. There is plenty of brain food >here, however, and presents opportunities for a four season CSA ion cold >climates. >Steve >Steve Bonney, President >Sustainable Earth >a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through >sustainable agriculture >100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 >tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net > > > Laura Sabourin Feast of Fields Inc Biodynamically Certified Organic Farm http://www.ragdolls.net/farm.eht Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm R R # 1 St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 21:52:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21538 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29484 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 21:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19710; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:40:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19605 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:39:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA04532; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:39:09 -0700 Received: from localhost (egbelsey@localhost) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA180376; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:39:05 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:39:05 -0700 (MST) From: Eric Belsey To: B H cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Monsanto on NPR All things Considered tonight (3/16) at 5pm In-Reply-To: <19990316.082611.-431763.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 I was very disappointed by this piece... It seems NPR is permanently in the corner of AgBIZ. Shapiro was represented as a hunger activist which is absurd. Again, the general gist to me was, why are silly activists oopposing this wonderful new thing? The NPR reporter said that the European opposition to biotech crops "came out of nowhere last year" This too is a misrepresentation of the depth and length of our struggle against biotech crops. They also blamed the destruction of the Indian BT cotton crops by activists as "fear of the terminator technology," with no discussion of other reasons informed people oppose biotech crops. There was maybe one sentence where they listed some of the silly ideas that people who oppose this, like a English barber (an uneducated rube to be certain) Why not have some of the numerous scientists on to explain why Monsanto is considered a corporate criminal? SHOW WHAT YOU THINK OF NPR ON THIS AND THEIR COMPLICITY IN THE SILENCING OF MUMIA-ABU JAMAL AT PLEDGE TIME!!!! GIVE MONEY TO YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITY RADIO AND PIRATE RADIO INSTEAD! peace--- EGB On Tue, 16 Mar 1999, B H wrote: > Be sure and catch this one folks....Monsanto is going to explain how they > wanted to 'end world hunger' and wound up becoming 'public enemy #1'. > (the quotes are from NPR's teaser.) > > Happy Growing, Betsy > Betsy Hultin > Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee > http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 > Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 16 22:14:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21870 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05504 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA20637; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:56:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA20576 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 20:56:16 -0600 (CST) From: sbonney@iquest.net Received: (qmail 12504 invoked from network); 17 Mar 1999 02:56:12 -0000 Received: from laf-0000-26.iquest.net (HELO default) (204.95.254.186) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Mar 1999 02:56:12 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990316220521.00a1a340@iquest.net> X-Sender: sbonney@iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:05:21 -0500 To: "CSA List" Subject: Re: Solviva In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316173918.00854bb0@vaxxine.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19990316100321.00a1c700@iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 I didn't mean to leave people hanging about the book, but then I didn't want anyone think I was spamming. The Solviva book features details of a 3000 square foot greenhouse that features intense growing systems, wastewater recycling, energy efficiency, and nutrient recycling. Edey also includes many design plans for a variety of adaptation. She gets year round production on Martha's Vineyard, Mass., Has grossed $6000 per month in the winter, over $50,000 per year, and says the potential production of salad mix from her system is 54,000 lbs. Smaller scales of the model could be adapted. I had my local bookstore order the book for me, but can be ordered directly from the author at solviva@vineyard.net Best, Steve Steve Bonney, President Sustainable Earth a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through sustainable agriculture 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 00:22:55 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24296 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01970 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA28913; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:02:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA28814 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:01:45 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dXNAa10819 for ; Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:55:34 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 23:55:34 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Solviva Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 I've been obsessing over Solviva since I read it this winter. I got my copy from amason.com. The only criticism I have for the book is that the well designed systems require significant capital outlay. Much more than the average organic farmer could scrape together. But if a farmer is going to accumulate debt, this is the only debt that makes environmental and economical sense. It is a must read book! We must look to the stars to find the light. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 03:19:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26018 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA03814 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 03:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA06989; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:11:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA06918 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:10:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA11231; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:10:06 -0800 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 00:10:06 -0800 (PST) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: sbonney@iquest.net cc: CSA List Subject: Re: Solviva In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990316220521.00a1a340@iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 I have looked at this book and in real life it seems a stretch, but I would love to lacking imagination on this point. I enjoy farming but it is a hard living, worthwhile, but not easy. I think books like this mislead. Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 sbonney@iquest.net wrote: > I didn't mean to leave people hanging about the book, but then I didn't > want anyone think I was spamming. The Solviva book features details of a > 3000 square foot greenhouse that features intense growing systems, > wastewater recycling, energy efficiency, and nutrient recycling. Edey also > includes many design plans for a variety of adaptation. > She gets year round production on Martha's Vineyard, Mass., Has grossed > $6000 per month in the winter, over $50,000 per year, and says the > potential production of salad mix from her system is 54,000 lbs. Smaller > scales of the model could be adapted. > I had my local bookstore order the book for me, but can be ordered > directly from the author at solviva@vineyard.net > Best, > Steve > Steve Bonney, President > Sustainable Earth > a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through > sustainable agriculture > 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 > tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 08:17:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29297 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29510 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA13894; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:09:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13814 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:07:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp138.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.138]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11378 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:08:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990317080710.0084e100@vaxxine.com> X-Sender: laura_s@vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:07:10 -0500 To: From: Laura Sabourin Subject: Re: Solviva In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.19990316220521.00a1a340@iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Dpes anyone know how much the book costs ? One good idea could make it worthwhile At 12:10 AM 3/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >I have looked at this book and in real life it seems a stretch, but I >would love to lacking imagination on this point. I enjoy farming but it is >a hard living, worthwhile, but not easy. I think books like this mislead. >Michelle > >Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, >27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 > > > > > > >On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 sbonney@iquest.net wrote: > >> I didn't mean to leave people hanging about the book, but then I didn't >> want anyone think I was spamming. The Solviva book features details of a >> 3000 square foot greenhouse that features intense growing systems, >> wastewater recycling, energy efficiency, and nutrient recycling. Edey also >> includes many design plans for a variety of adaptation. >> She gets year round production on Martha's Vineyard, Mass., Has grossed >> $6000 per month in the winter, over $50,000 per year, and says the >> potential production of salad mix from her system is 54,000 lbs. Smaller >> scales of the model could be adapted. >> I had my local bookstore order the book for me, but can be ordered >> directly from the author at solviva@vineyard.net >> Best, >> Steve >> Steve Bonney, President >> Sustainable Earth >> a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through >> sustainable agriculture >> 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 >> tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net >> > > > Laura Sabourin Feast of Fields Inc Biodynamically Certified Organic Farm http://www.ragdolls.net/farm.eht Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm R R # 1 St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 09:17:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00232 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13979 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA17024; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:08:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16967 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:08:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.217] [198.69.131.217] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A8371DE0098; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:12:07 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:12:09 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Leigh Hauter Subject: NPR and monsanto Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 I second Eric's comments about NPR and Monsanto. The nightly news vehicle, All Things Considered, should be looked at as the offical voice of state and corporate interests. We shouldn't expect anything else. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 09:34:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00534 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19334 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18324; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:27:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.real.on.ca (mail2.real.on.ca [209.167.186.129]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18268 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:27:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from london.skyscape.net (pppD13.mco.net [209.167.186.33]) by mail2.real.on.ca (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01520; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:26:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gelliott@london.skyscape.net) Message-ID: <36EFB9DA.600BD1EB@london.skyscape.net> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:19:06 -0500 From: Gary Elliott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michelle Y. Crawford" CC: sbonney@iquest.net, CSA List Subject: Re: Solviva References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Michelle Might I gently suggest that what Anna Edey is doing is real life, her take on it. You say farming is a hard living, it is how you design it. I can use a spoon to weed my garden, or a hoe, or use a mulch. The amount of work I do, and the money I make, are determined, to a great extent, by my decisions. I see many workers, in farming and other businesses, who expand their work and their plan to the amount of time they allow for it. As for her book being misleading, please expand upon this. Regards Gary Elliott Sylvan Organic Farm Parkhill, Ontario "Michelle Y. Crawford" wrote: > I have looked at this book and in real life it seems a stretch, but I > would love to lacking imagination on this point. I enjoy farming but it is > a hard living, worthwhile, but not easy. I think books like this mislead. > Michelle > > Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, > 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 sbonney@iquest.net wrote: > > > I didn't mean to leave people hanging about the book, but then I didn't > > want anyone think I was spamming. The Solviva book features details of a > > 3000 square foot greenhouse that features intense growing systems, > > wastewater recycling, energy efficiency, and nutrient recycling. Edey also > > includes many design plans for a variety of adaptation. > > She gets year round production on Martha's Vineyard, Mass., Has grossed > > $6000 per month in the winter, over $50,000 per year, and says the > > potential production of salad mix from her system is 54,000 lbs. Smaller > > scales of the model could be adapted. > > I had my local bookstore order the book for me, but can be ordered > > directly from the author at solviva@vineyard.net > > Best, > > Steve > > Steve Bonney, President > > Sustainable Earth > > a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through > > sustainable agriculture > > 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 > > tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 09:49:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01043 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23171 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA19309; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:41:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19251 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:41:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.217] [198.69.131.187] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id AFEE7800DA; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:45:02 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:45:06 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: no deliveries Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 I was interested in the recent thread on not having deliveries and having only shares for people to come out to the farm, What are your thoughts on pollution and oil consumption? My shareholders live between 15 and 45 miles from the farm. Should each one of these people drive their cars out to the farm or should I drive my truck to them? The later is obviously more fuel effecient and environmentally friendly. The response that we should market our shares locally is a poor answer since there aren't enough people to support our program living within ten miles. Additionally, what of people living in the city? Should they only eat corporate vegetables? I know the solution is urban farming, but because of tax and zoning laws this isn't going to happen anytime soon. enough for this, I have to get out and put up fence. On another subject, does anyone have a good solution for keeping deer away from the vegetables? Last year, each method only worked for a couple weeks before the wilely wood rats figured it out and came after the greens again. Yesterday I saw 14 does in the woods on our drive. That's too many to shoot. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 09:49:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01056 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23311 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA19408; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:42:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.156]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19364 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:42:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from [151.196.116.3] (client-151-196-116-3.bellatlantic.net [151.196.116.3]) by smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA24366 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:41:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903171441.JAA24366@smtp-out1.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:20:52 -0500 Subject: Request: CSA contacts in Switzerland From: "Steven McFadden" To: "CSA-L" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 Hi - A US reporter has contacted me seeking leads to CSA farms in Switzerland. She is planning a trip there in the Autumn, and wants to write something on the subject. If you have any contacts in Switzerland, or promising leads, please let me know by e-mail and I will forward the messages on to her. With thanks, Steven From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 11:47:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04345 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23069 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02472; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:39:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from serval.noc.ucla.edu (serval.noc.ucla.edu [169.232.10.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02388 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:38:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from ucla.edu (davidk.biology.ucla.edu [128.97.133.15]) by serval.noc.ucla.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17876 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:38:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36EFDB5C.F6CE5B2D@ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:42:05 -0800 From: David King X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA List Subject: How to Purchase the Solviva Book Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 Hi folks.... I wrote to the original poster and got the an email address regarding purchasing this book, here is the response for al who are interested: Dear David -- the Solviva book is available right from me. The fastest is to e-mail (solviva@vineyard.net) or phone in, (508) 693-3341, your Visa or Mastercard info and address, or you can send a check or money order to Anna Edey, RFD 1 Box 582, Vineyard Haven, MA 02568. I'll send it to you promptly upon payment by one method or another. The price is $35 plus $3.20 for mailing, total $38.20. Thanks and best wishes -- Anna Edey Sent as a help to the many who have written in requesting same... In other words, just trying to be helpful... peace & blessings, david From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 13:10:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07179 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13964 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA09255; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:59:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from cronus.rockisland.com (root@cronus.rockisland.com [199.217.72.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09169 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:59:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from [199.217.72.89] (pm2-89.rockisland.com [199.217.72.89]) by cronus.rockisland.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25002 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 09:58:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903171758.JAA25002@cronus.rockisland.com> Subject: re NPR Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 10:52:45 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Lee Sturdivant To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id LAA09171 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 I think it might be a good idea to consider NPR as a medium that introduces a subject to certain segments of the country. Yes, they are becoming more establishment minded, but they also reach most people who are sick of the more commercial media. People we need to reach. Instead of just condemning them, I suggest we contact NPR and let them know how superficially they treated the Monsanto question. Perhaps contact special reporters played on NPR (Sci Fri, Ray Suarez, etc.) and supply them with better information. Their national web site is http://www.npr.org/ Mail Address is NPR 635 Mass. Ave NW Wash DC 200001 Tel 202-414-2000 Fax 202-414-3329 email to All Things considered is atc@npr.org I have found them fairly responsive - especially the local stations, which may be a better place to start. Lee Sturdivant San Juan Naturals Publishers of Bootstrap Guides From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 13:23:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07759 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17000 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10976; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:15:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10892 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:15:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA20828; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:14:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from wor-ma1-07.ix.netcom.com(205.184.168.39) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020785; Wed Mar 17 12:13:57 1999 Message-ID: <017401be70a1$c0d0af60$55a8b8cd@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "CSA list" , "Leigh Hauter" Subject: Re: no deliveries Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:12:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 Leigh wrote: >I was interested in the recent thread on not having deliveries and having >only shares for people to come out to the farm, What are your thoughts on >pollution and oil consumption? >My shareholders live between 15 and 45 miles from the farm. Should each one >of these people drive their cars out to the farm or should I drive my truck >to them? The later is obviously more fuel effecient and environmentally >friendly. The response that we should market our shares locally is a poor >answer since there aren't enough people to support our program living >within ten miles. > >Additionally, what of people living in the city? Should they only eat >corporate vegetables? I know the solution is urban farming, but because of >tax and zoning laws this isn't going to happen anytime soon. > Our farm is pick-up only (I have a but I'll get to in a minute) because thats what works for us. We also live in a town/area that is very suburban(we're a bit of an oasis) large population within 10 miles. There is a CSA in the next town that's biggest membership is closer to the "big" city Boston and they have some sort of delivery drop off sort of thing. Leigh you are right city people should be able to have a farmer connection, but it still would be nice if every one of them came to your farm at least once to actually see were there food comes from (thats just a personal opinion in that I think they'd enjoy it). My But I mentioned above, while I personally won't be delivering I see a potential for groups of members trading pick-up days so that each one only has to drive to the farm every few weeks. I haven't had anyone request this, but I did offer it to someone (a friend of one of my members) who lives about a 1/2 hour away. But a shared pick up still allows everyone to enjoy the farm. There just is not a wrong or right answer nor should their be, but its fun hearing everyones suggestions. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 13:49:11 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08175 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23265 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13044; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:40:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12960 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:39:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA55916 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:39:37 -0700 Received: from holly.colostate.edu (grin-d.NSSL.ColoState.EDU [129.82.189.43]) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA170246 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:39:36 -0700 Message-ID: <36EFF813.E5185692@holly.colostate.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:44:35 -0700 From: Eric Belsey X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: re NPR References: <199903171758.JAA25002@cronus.rockisland.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 Lee Sturdivant wrote: > > I think it might be a good idea to consider NPR as a medium that > introduces a subject to certain segments of the country. Yes, they are > becoming more establishment minded, but they also reach most people who > are sick of the more commercial media. People we need to reach. Instead > of just condemning them, I suggest we contact NPR and let them know how > superficially they treated the Monsanto question. I respect Lee's very valid viewpoint on being less confrontational regarding NPR, I am just a bit cynical and feel that this route won't change much. In some ways NPR is more insidious than the mainstream media, because at least the mainstream media bows all the time directly to commercial interests without pretending too much that they are doing otherwise. NPR on the other hand plays a tiny violin and wrings out their hankies at pledge time about what an amazing unbiased "public" service they are providing, which is an outright lie. "Public" televison has the same credibility problems. The only public broadcasting I support is local radio (KGNU in Boulder) who doesn't use underwriters to pay the bill, but instead goes the very hard route of listener support. If you want to understand the issues of media self-censorship in service of corporate goals, including a good expose on the "unbiased" McNeil/Lehrer News Hour, and the forgotten US-sponsored genocide in East Timor I can not recommend more highly a film called Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media. to buy a copy, try this website: http://www.aigis.com/wl/orders.html to find the rare rental store that carries it: http://talene.home.texas.net/vid.htm enough on the media, who's farming? peace--- Eric Belsey From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 14:35:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09012 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05040 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17178; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:27:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from xprt.net (root@xprt.net [209.102.124.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17092 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:27:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from peter (pdx-ppp73.pop1.net [209.102.125.123]) by xprt.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id LAA27908 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:27:20 -0800 Message-ID: <008601be70ac$56e31100$7b7d66d1@peter> From: "xprt" To: Subject: buying books and new CSA Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 11:28:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE7069.48027470" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE7069.48027470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some places to buy Solviva, with prices...... http://acses6.acses.com/acsesbin/nph-det8.cgi?isbn=3D3D0966234901&idcode=3D= 3D=3D 54244&c ountry=3D3DUSA The best price is here: http://www.bigwords.com Just trying to be helpful to all. I am a new subscriber to this list.=20 Here in Portland Oregon we are working on buying 80 acres to create a CSA with community links to a specific Portland neighborhood. The land=20 can be reached by bicycle and bus by 20,000 urbanites. We have capital, but not a whole lot of farm experience. If anyone around our area is interested, let me know. And thanks to all = who post here - it's helpful to hear everyone's thoughts. Peter Michaelson ------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE7069.48027470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some places to buy Solviva, with prices......

http://acses6.acses.com/acsesbin/nph-det8.cgi?isbn=3D3D0= 966234901&idcode=3D3D=3D
54244&c
ountry=3D3DUSA

= The=20 best price is here:
http://www.bigwords.com

Just = trying to=20 be helpful to all.  I am a new subscriber to this list.
Here = in =20 Portland Oregon we are working on buying 80 acres to create a
CSA = with=20 community links to a specific Portland neighborhood.  The land =
can be=20 reached by bicycle and bus by 20,000 urbanites.

We have capital, = but not=20 a whole lot of farm experience.

If anyone around our area is = interested,=20 let me know.  And thanks to all
who post here - it's helpful to = hear=20 everyone's thoughts.

Peter Michaelson
------=_NextPart_000_0083_01BE7069.48027470-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 16:52:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12776 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09703 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA27253; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:44:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from peak.org (denisont@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27188 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 15:43:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (denisont@localhost) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with SMTP id NAA08500 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:43:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:43:51 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Denison X-Sender: denisont@kira To: csa Subject: Re: re NPR In-Reply-To: <199903171758.JAA25002@cronus.rockisland.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id PAA27190 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 Or better yet, contact NPR and suggest they do a story on the CSA movement in the USA? Elizabeth Kerle Denison Farms Corvallis, OR On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Lee Sturdivant wrote: > I think it might be a good idea to consider NPR as a medium that > introduces a subject to certain segments of the country. Yes, they are > becoming more establishment minded, but they also reach most people who > are sick of the more commercial media. People we need to reach. Instead > of just condemning them, I suggest we contact NPR and let them know how > superficially they treated the Monsanto question. Perhaps contact special > reporters played on NPR (Sci Fri, Ray Suarez, etc.) and supply them with > better information. > Their national web site is http://www.npr.org/ > Mail Address is NPR 635 Mass. Ave NW Wash DC 200001 > Tel 202-414-2000 > Fax 202-414-3329 > email to All Things considered is atc@npr.org > I have found them fairly responsive - especially the local stations, > which may be a better place to start. > Lee Sturdivant > > > > San Juan Naturals Publishers of Bootstrap Guides > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 17:09:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13166 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14053 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA28602; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:02:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28523 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:01:48 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dZBEa04993 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:57:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:57:36 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: no deliveries Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Wow Leigh, You really live in the country. It makes ecological sense to drive to drop of spots when you live away from your customer base. My comments are for an urban farm with all of the disadvantages of taxes, packs of dogs roaming at night and unsympathetic neighbors who sue us for farming activities. For example, 15% of our gross sales from the CSA go to property taxes alone. So it is happening, it just isn't easy. Different situations call for different solutions. My Grandmother always said, "Everyone goes crazy different." << I know the solution is urban farming, but because of tax and zoning laws this isn't going to happen anytime soon. >> But deer control is as easy as knowing what to feed them. We have a four ft high 5 stran (heavy gauge) electric fence on three sides of our double lot. I bait the fence with peanut butter hanging on hardware cloth from the fence. It has a very strong energizer that charges from 0 to 5,000 volts in 0.4 seconds and is off for a second. It has very low amperage so it cannot harm kids or livestock. But it sure gets everyone's attention when they hit it. The dear take the peanut butter in their mouth and receive an impressive jolt. The fence then becomes a psychological barrier. The deer must think that if the hors d' oeuvres are that bad the main course must be worse. I've seen them pacing along the fence drooling at my sugar snap peas just inside the fence. But they won't come in. Sometimes their fawns will hop through the fence and the parents go postal snorting and pawing their warnings to the little ones. But they don't come in after their offspring. Last summer they started jumping into our front yard where we only have a short cedar fence. That is when we started leaving our dog out at night to chase them and other dogs off the property. We do get a lot more sleep now. Plus the deer eat at our neighbors gardens which improves our business. Good luck, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 18:05:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14452 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29767 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02784; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:57:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02708 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:56:40 -0600 (CST) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dGSQa18832 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:51:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8540588c.36f031ea@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 17:51:22 EST To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Monsanto Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id QAA02709 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 I just read an EXCELLENT article that a friend had saved from the New York Times Magazine. It's a bit dated--October 25, 1998--but very illuminating and thoughtfully written, taking a look at different perspectives (conventional farmers, biotech/genetic engineers, organic farmers, consumers.) The writer's name is Michael Pollan and the title of the feature article is Playing God in the Garden "Monsanto trusts its genetically engineered potato to kill off the Colorado potato beetle. But whether humankind's enduring relationship to food crops is being imperiled by biotechnology is the big question." If anyone cares to search for this in the NYTimes archives, it's definitely worth the read. I'm sharing it with CSA members at our organizers meeting tonight.... Heidi Lewis From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 20:28:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17681 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16390 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA12633; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:21:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12573 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:20:18 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dGWKa04982 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:17:19 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:17:19 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Deer Control Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 My Pyrenees/Maremma LGD (livestock guardian dog) is doing a great job of keeping the deer down on their own side of the hill. The goats have taught him just how to move a ruminant without chasing it -- and taught him at an early age not to chase (all it took was one ornery mom goat with no patience and not much liking for dogs to begin with). My neighbors have warned me that if they ever see him running deer they'll shoot him. Can't say much to that except "Well, if you have to do that please let me know what happened to him." So far everybody's been able to co-exist, and despite having a veritable deer highway in my little valley I've had no trouble. Note that I've left half of the farm as a wildlife refuge and deer highway -- they have their half, I have mine. I also drum in the orchard during the full moon and sing to the deer and remind them that one way or another I need to get a harvest off these fields -- beans and corn or venison, their choice. Didn't get either one of these ideas from Cornell, but for me they seem to be working. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 17 21:42:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18990 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06476 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA16713; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:34:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16634 for ; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:33:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.217] [209.8.149.180] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A6B913B013C; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:36:41 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:36:44 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Deer Control Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 >My Pyrenees/Maremma LGD (livestock guardian dog) is doing a great job Actually, my Komondor does a fine job of keeping wild dogs, bobcats, foxes and other animals (humans included) away from the goats, chickens, cows, emus (why would anyone have an emu? Because it was given to them), peacocks and house. However keeping the deer out of all the land we're growing veggies on is probably too much to expect of him. Thanks for the idea of baiting the electric fence. I hadn't tried that and will. The fences of different heights or outward slanting fence are great ideas but the cost seems overly prohibitive for the area we're growing veggies on. The idea of meditating or whatever with the poor deer also seems a little too much. Which of the dozens of deer should I meditate with (Flossie, Mildred, Ruth Ann, or possibly Betty)? I am sure some of these deer don't even know each other. Did you know a deer covers about seven miles of country everyday (if that much land is available)? And with last year's drought, our farm must have looked like an oasis in the middle of a parched desert. I understand a deer wanting to eat our vegetables. We grow great vegetables. But, unfortunately, growing enough vegetables for us, our shareholders, and the deer would mean clearing more land, which would mean taking all of that forest food away from the animals that depend on it (you know -squirrels, raccoons, skunks, timber rattlers, etc.). It looks like a no-win situation to me. And from my point-of-view I hope it is the deer that lose. Last season I invited shareholders to come to our place and shoot deer - doe only. But, alas, most city people have lost the taste for venison. And personally, I would much rather eat a young kid (and I do) than a gamey deer. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 02:09:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24111 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA05370 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01336; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:01:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA01261 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 01:00:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA02266; Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:00:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Gary Elliott cc: sbonney@iquest.net, CSA List Subject: Re: Solviva In-Reply-To: <36EFB9DA.600BD1EB@london.skyscape.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 I take your point. Thank you. Always there are better ways to approach things. M Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Wed, 17 Mar 1999, Gary Elliott wrote: > Michelle > > Might I gently suggest that what Anna Edey is doing is real life, her take on it. > You say farming is a hard living, it is how you design it. I can use a spoon to > weed my garden, or a hoe, or use a mulch. The amount of work I do, and the money I > make, are determined, to a great extent, by my decisions. I see many workers, in > farming and other businesses, who expand their work and their plan to the amount of > time they allow for it. > > As for her book being misleading, please expand upon this. > > Regards > Gary Elliott > Sylvan Organic Farm > Parkhill, Ontario > > "Michelle Y. Crawford" wrote: > > > I have looked at this book and in real life it seems a stretch, but I > > would love to lacking imagination on this point. I enjoy farming but it is > > a hard living, worthwhile, but not easy. I think books like this mislead. > > Michelle > > > > Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, > > 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 > > > > On Tue, 16 Mar 1999 sbonney@iquest.net wrote: > > > > > I didn't mean to leave people hanging about the book, but then I didn't > > > want anyone think I was spamming. The Solviva book features details of a > > > 3000 square foot greenhouse that features intense growing systems, > > > wastewater recycling, energy efficiency, and nutrient recycling. Edey also > > > includes many design plans for a variety of adaptation. > > > She gets year round production on Martha's Vineyard, Mass., Has grossed > > > $6000 per month in the winter, over $50,000 per year, and says the > > > potential production of salad mix from her system is 54,000 lbs. Smaller > > > scales of the model could be adapted. > > > I had my local bookstore order the book for me, but can be ordered > > > directly from the author at solviva@vineyard.net > > > Best, > > > Steve > > > Steve Bonney, President > > > Sustainable Earth > > > a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through > > > sustainable agriculture > > > 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 > > > tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 06:10:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA25943 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA23097 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA06289; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:58:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from ramses.lu.se (ramses.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA06240 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 04:58:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (luetnfs.etn.lu.se [130.235.150.159]) by ramses.lu.se (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA24514 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:59:09 +0100 (MET) Received: from LUETNFS/SpoolDir by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.21); 18 Mar 99 12:10:01 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUETNFS (Mercury 1.30); 18 Mar 99 12:09:37 +0100 Received: from humecol.lu.se by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 18 Mar 99 12:09:34 +0100 Message-ID: <36F0DA0A.EEDFAB24@humecol.lu.se> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:48:42 +0100 From: Folke =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: add Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id EAA06241 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 I would like to be added to your mailing list. FG -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Gnther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievgen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm --- Thou Shalt not Cultivate High Power - because Error and Destruction are Its Evil Companions From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 07:09:30 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26509 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA02382 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA07766; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:01:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07705 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:00:28 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dISOa17110 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:59:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3ef44930.36f0eabb@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:59:55 EST To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Rebuilding a CSA after the first year-Changes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 Sorry if someone else has posted this, but our farm is 40 miles outside of Buffalo and about 30 from Rochester. We set up distribution groups.... I plot people on a map, "hire" ($100.00 discount off your share) a distribution coordinator from the "neighborhoods" I've plotted, then get all those people together with the coordinator, who signs them up to come out to the farm once or twice during the season to pick up for their neighborhood. We use groups of 10-15 families. It works well, except when the family of four comes out in their CIVIC, forgetting that they need to have room for 15 people's groceries. Obviously, this saves on resources, because we don't have 185 families driving out to the farm every week! Cheers, Sue Tannehill computer geek for Porter Farms CSA Elba, NY From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 09:26:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28225 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29129 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA14046; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:18:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13979 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:18:14 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903181418.IAA13979@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 428431712; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:18:48 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: Subject: Re: Deer Control Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 08:53:30 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 When our dog falls behind on deer patrol we pitch a tent in the area where the deer come in and camp out for a couple of nights. The dog gets re-oriented to the chase and the deer are very upset by human presence in "their" territory. This seems to help for at least several weeks. We have had some success with perfume: tie rags into tree branches or posts here and there around the perimeter and douse with the stickiest perfume you can find at the Salvation Army store (another use, perhaps for unwanted Xmas gifts?). Change the scent often and redouse every other day. Chanel #5 worked really well for quite a while... Jo's dad swears by hanging his sweaty overalls in the garden at the end of the day. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 10:07:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29067 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10628 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA16831; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:00:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16768 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:00:03 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dAPNa10110 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:56:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:56:05 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: More good news! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 Just got off the phone with Bill Draper from Draper's Super Bee Apiaries. Looks like they'll be setting up 24 hives here this year. They're very pleased to find an organic farm with a good source of clean open water nearby. They supply the hives, the colonies, the electric fencing, the workers to harvest the honey. I get one pound of honey for each hive stationed here, plus of course all of the pollinating action! I can also buy honey wholesale from them by the gallon for distribution to the CSA members -- really great prices since they're close enough for me to pick up at their warehouse. Visitors will have to be reminded and trained that the bees are valued workers and are not to be disturbed, and I might have to adjust tour schedules so that we aren't trying to walk civilians through at high-activity times of the day. And some of us will have to accept that we're probably going to get nailed once in a while. Boy, that's just what it feels like, too -- a hot nail! (Voice of experience, took me a while to learn how to work in the garden when the bees are busy and I do take an occasional hit to this day. The bumblebee who fell into the big clompy garden clog was the worst, though the yellowjacket who went down the loose back waistband of those jeans I should have taken in when I lost weight was a close second.) I figure it's a reasonable price to pay and I thank my lucky stars that this is one allergy I seem to have missed. Drapers also does bee-sting therapy workshops. I have to admit that my fibromyalgia and arthritis are almost gone, don't know if it's dumb luck or goat's milk or good old-fashioned weight-bearing exercise (otherwise known as honest sweaty work) or bee stings. They also sell beautiful furniture-quality observation hives -- maybe next year! Can anybody tell I'm more than a little jazzed about this development? Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com If you'd like to visit Draper's on-line, they're at http://www.draperbee.com -- if you end up doing business with them, let them know I recommended them! The more I run these ridges the more interesting wonderful places I find on the back roads within ten miles of home. What a hoot! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 10:42:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00085 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22397 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18951; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:34:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from ic4.ithaca.edu (ic4.ithaca.edu [147.129.1.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18575 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:27:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from ithaca.edu (ic069163.ithaca.edu [147.129.69.163]) by ic4.ithaca.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #30132) with ESMTP id <01J8Z0KRJUNW0000PF@ic4.ithaca.edu> for CSA-L@prairienet.org; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:27:08 EST Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:29:31 -0500 From: Debbie Teeter Subject: Re: Deer Control To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Message-id: <36F11BDB.506E0F61@ithaca.edu> Organization: Ithaca College MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: <199903181418.IAA13979@firefly.prairienet.org> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 Along similar lines as Jim and Jo: we've have good luck hanging bars of deodorant soap (left in the box/wrapping) from our fruit and ornamental trees. We had constant winter and spring damage (branch tip nibbling, bark stripping) before trying this. Debbie Teeter A.J. Teeter Farm Ithaca, NY Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > When our dog falls behind on deer patrol we pitch a tent in the area where > the deer come in and camp out for a couple of nights. The dog gets > re-oriented to the chase and the deer are very upset by human presence in > "their" territory. This seems to help for at least several weeks. > > We have had some success with perfume: tie rags into tree branches or posts > here and there around the perimeter and douse with the stickiest perfume > you can find at the Salvation Army store (another use, perhaps for unwanted > Xmas gifts?). Change the scent often and redouse every other day. Chanel #5 > worked really well for quite a while... > > Jo's dad swears by hanging his sweaty overalls in the garden at the end of > the day. > > Jo and Jim > "The Community Farm" newsletter > A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture > http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 12:41:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03313 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24681 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28898; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:33:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28447 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 11:27:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990318172751.21258.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [199.217.10.2] by send102.yahoomail.com; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:27:51 PST Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:27:51 -0800 (PST) From: Loren Davidson Reply-To: loren@wombat.net Subject: Re: Deer Control To: CSA list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 ---Leigh Hauter wrote: > The idea of meditating or whatever with the poor deer also seems a little > too much. Which of the dozens of deer should I meditate with (Flossie, > Mildred, Ruth Ann, or possibly Betty)? I am sure some of these deer don't > even know each other. I believe that the concept is not necessarily to communicate with individual deer, but with the species consciousness of Deer. Many Native American (and Native European, several more centuries removed) cultures have, in their mythologies and beliefs, the concept of Bear, or Deer, or Raven, as the spirit of that species. Speaking to that spirit of Deer successfully means that the message will get to all the individual deer somehow. One practical application of this that I haven't nearly mastered yet involves speaking to the spirit of Mosquito, indicating that many of their species will die if they land on me for a snack. Once in a great while I get it right, and they leave me alone for a day or so. Most of the time though I make a great mosquito lure. :/ Loren == Loren Davidson Permaculturist, poet, philosopher Please reply to loren@wombat.net http://www.batnet.com/beauty/ "Warning: Listening to talk radio can make you stupid." -- M. Frymer _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 17:16:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12399 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14424 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19433; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:08:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19310 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:07:57 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dHHTa23381 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:07:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <728852a5.36f17911@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:07:13 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Deer Control Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 I hope we can agree to be friendly even if we don't agree on everything. No, standing out in the field with a drum isn't in Cornell's deer control pamphlet. Yes, I do feel pretty silly when I do it. But it doesn't hurt anything. And the deer don't eat my garden. There, now I've gone and "put mouth" on it, and because I bragged they'll come and eat everything this year. ;-( I also keep a really big noisy dog of a breed that's specialized in territoriality for about 4,000 years (Pyrenees/Maremma), cover the tenderest beds with hog panel and chicken wire cages, hang bars of soap, and one year got a nuisance permit and had a neighbor shoot the two does who were bringing a herd in every night. Maybe they understand the drumming and singing through some kind of psychic vibrations or maybe word got around that I mean business about this garden, who knows? I will continue to do whatever might help and won't hurt. Let's face it, in some cases a bullet _is_ organic. One of my "many skills" hobbies is gardening folklore. I also beat on my old apple trees and yell at them on Imbolc eve (Groundhog Day). I personally think that pruning and fertilizing has more to do with my apple success than this old practice of "scaring" the trees into production, but what the heck. Even the experts at Cornell have admitted "off the record" that peeing outside of the garden perimeter seems to deter deer -- seems to be more effective from a male gardener who thinks "stay out of my territory" while he marks the boundary. But they haven't published this finding. (Outside, not inside the garden, please, we organic gardeners already have a reputation to live down because of manure and compost) I've also had great success with putting piles of "zoo poo" around the garden perimeter. Most zoos sell it these days in expensive little one-pound composted bags but you might be able to get fresh pure stuff in exchange for a donation. If you can get fresh lion or tiger poo for free, more power to you. If I was a deer I'd sure notice that message and stay well on the other side of that 7-mile range, especially when the farmer was leaning out the back door calling "Here, kitty, kitty...." Dori Green http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 17:38:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13138 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21230 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21040; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:26:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20991 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:26:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.8.149.176] [209.8.149.145] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id AE6EB60088; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:30:06 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <728852a5.36f17911@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:30:08 -0500 To: DGreen47@aol.com From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Deer Control Cc: CSA list Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 I'm sorry, Komondorak do the same thing, but better. >I also keep a really big noisy dog of a breed that's specialized in >territoriality for about 4,000 years (Pyrenees/Maremma), From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 18:09:23 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14104 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28973 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23865; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:01:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23805 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:01:14 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dNBHa04982 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:48:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 17:48:39 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Deer Control Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 The problem with almost all methods of deer control, seriously, is that deer become quickly acclimated to almost every form of control and soon ignore it. The only truly 100% effective control is a 14-foot-high woven wire fence. The monastery a few hills over has surrounded their orchard with just such a fence. Without it I doubt they'd get a single apple. And these guys have got Connections! Dori Green http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 19:38:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15444 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18762 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA29889; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:30:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29805 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:29:23 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dPBIa28778 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:28:39 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:28:39 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re:Bee Ware!: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 Bees are an exciting addition to any growing operation. I've found that by keeping four honey bee hives in the center of my fields that the hornets and yellow jackets choose less populated airspace to site their hives. I have planted bamboo screens around the honey well to protect both bees and visitors. But the tired girls sometimes get cranky around full moons and become less tolerant than usual. When they sting, we have first aid immediately available. The Homeopathic Apis mellifica 6X, and Adolph's meat tenderizer formed into a paste with water or saliva. They stop the burn, swelling and itching often accompanying stings. People's fears are often the most challenging obstacle to overcome. I hope your county doesn't use herbicides to "maintain roadsides." I can always tell when the roads are sprayed across Rich Passage from Bainbridge Island because all of my Queens die in the same week. The media would have us believe that mites are the problem. I plant mint around the hives to prevent mites. But I can't keep the field bees from crossing the passage to deathville. Good luck and step lightly. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 19:50:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15633 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21201 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA00806; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:41:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00740 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:40:55 -0600 (CST) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dQPKa04877; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:40:14 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <5b8276f.36f19cee@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:40:14 EST To: SCook21809@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re:Bee Ware!: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Congrats on getting the bee hives, Dori. Gotta tell ya, we have had an extremely active swarm in the side of our old barn for many years. Their fly- way is directly in front of the main door to the barn that is used countless times a day. The *only* time anyone has ever gotten stung was when the hay wagon, needing a quick repair, was parked so that it blocked their entry. They got down right ornry, and nailed my hot and tired hubby while he was fixing the wagon. We always warn folks that they are there, and usually visitors take a wide path around that area. Others are quite intrigued with the prospect of a barn full of honey!! Linda Homestead Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 19:53:41 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15711 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21944 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01182; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:45:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from stinger.excite.com (stinger-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.220]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01132 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:45:41 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from ants.excite.com ([199.172.152.146]) by stinger.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990319004509.IVNK7586.stinger@ants.excite.com> for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:45:09 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re:Bee Ware!: Message-Id: <921804309.26056.302@excite.com> Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:45:09 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.251 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 Art, Thanks for the practical bee advice. We have ordered two swarms that are due to arrive next month some time. We hadn't really thought about CSA members and bees. Will have to go out and get some apis mellifora 6x and meat tenderizer and learn a good calming speech to get the CSAers over their fears of bees and find that perfect out of the way spot for them. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 20:02:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15874 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23905 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA01779; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:54:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from saturn.ausaid.gov.au (saturn.ausaid.gov.au [202.6.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA01705 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:54:00 -0600 (CST) Received: by saturn.ausaid.gov.au; id LAA25586; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:53:26 +1100 (EST) Received: from degas.ausaid.gov.au(202.6.37.150) by saturn.ausaid.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma025577; Fri, 19 Mar 99 11:53:24 +1100 Received: from ccMail by degas.ausaid.gov.au (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 000BD9E0; Fri, 19 Mar 1999 11:53:34 +1000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 10:51:44 +1000 Message-ID: <000BD9E0.005013@ausaid.gov.au> From: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au (Anton Vikstrom) Subject: Fw: Virus Alert VERY IMPORTANT To: Robert_Ferraris@ausaid.gov.au (Robert Ferraris), Patricia_Ludowyk@ausaid.gov.au (Patricia Ludowyk), John_Murray@ausaid.gov.au (John Murray), Ed_Peek@ausaid.gov.au (Ed Peek), Brian_Scoullar@ausaid.gov.au (Brian Scoullar), Luca_Tacconi@ausaid.gov.au (Luca Tacconi), CSA-L@prairienet.org, sgraham@findhorn.org, salsify333@hotmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 what will those clever fellas down in hacker land think of next>? ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Fw: Virus Alert VERY IMPORTANT Author: steve@gungahlintech.com.au (Gungahlin Tech - Steve) at Inter-net Date: 3/18/99 10:32 PM >Subject: Fw: Virus Alert VERY IMPORTANT > >Please make a note of the message below... > >If you receive an email titled "It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus'" >DO NOT open it. It will erase everything on your hard drive. >Forward this letter out to as many people as you can. > >This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. > >This information was announced yesterday morning from IBM; please share it >with everyone that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this >along to EVERYONE in your address book so that this may be stopped. > >AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is >NO remedy for it at this time. Please practice cautionary measures >and forward this to all your online friends ASAP. > > > > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 18 22:00:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17671 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21269 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08384; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:52:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08320 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 20:51:55 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dMPCa18039 for ; Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:49:44 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 21:49:44 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Bee Ware!: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 One of the great advantages of living in a less-populated area is that it seems to be easier to win the battle about road spraying. Maybe it was because I buy hay from the highway superintendent. It's all connected. Dori Green http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 20 06:53:42 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA14624 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA17691 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10827; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:46:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.mebbs.com (www.mebbs.com [207.177.12.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10696 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:40:46 -0600 (CST) Received: by www.mebbs.com from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:50:20 -0600 Received: from boblkbns.netins.net [207.177.12.36] by www.mebbs.com [207.177.12.3] (SLmail 3.2.3108) with SMTP id A796698CDD8411D28AC90020182AA861 for plus 1 more; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:50:19 -0600 Message-ID: <000501be72c6$06c94f60$240cb1cf@boblkbns.netins.net> From: "Ron Boyer" To: Cc: "Ron Boyer" Subject: haven't heard Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:37:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-SLUIDL: B09A9CB5-DD8A11D2-8AC90020-182AA861 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 I haven't heard from anyone in the last day or two so I was wondering if the list was down this is my first letter. I am Ron Boyer from Boyer Black Beans in Iowa.I don't have a CSA but I do raise dry beans and I think later on in the season we should be able to help each other out particularly in the midwest.I have a web page that is not completed yet but if you are interested it is www.blackbeans.com I hope you check it out and I am sure I will be talking to you. PS I farm about 500 acres but I have some of the same problems you have(deer and profits) it has been interesting see you approach to these problem among others Ron Boyer From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 20 09:40:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16454 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:40:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08775 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16013; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:32:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15934 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:31:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.190] [198.69.131.190] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A1FE20C013C; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:34:38 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:34:38 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Fwd: What is the future for suppliers of organic produce now that the big marketing and distribution companies are moving in? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id IAA15935 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 >Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:50:51 -0800 >From: "Albert V. Krebs" >Reply-To: avkrebs@earthlink.net >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: one@earthlink.net >Subject: What is the future for suppliers of organic produce now that the big > marketing and distribution companies are moving in? >X-RCPT-TO: >Status: U > >http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/en/1999/03/16bio.html > >LE MONDE DIPLOMATIQUE - March 1999 > >ORGANIC FOOD: LIES AND PROFITS >Bio business is big business >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- >What is the future for suppliers of organic produce now that the big >marketing and distribution companies are moving in? Will they survive >the shock? As a result of the "mad cow disease" panic, organic farming is >enjoying an unprecedented boom. Consumer demand has never been so >strong. >The major retail stores are filling more and more of their shelves with >organic produce. Organic shops and supermarkets - or at least claiming >to be organic - are shooting up everywhere. However, now that organic >farming is coming into its own and is also receiving subsidies, it has >become a >juicy market niche ripe for exploitation. Faced with the encroachment of > >big business, the organic lobby seems uncertain which way to turn. >by CHANTAL LE NOALLEC * > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- >Buying organic food is a statement of principle. It means supporting a >model of agriculture that is on the side of life, and resisting the >destruction of our environment. It means rejecting the madness of >consumer society, respecting animals, and looking after our bodies. It >also means taking responsibility for our choices in one of the few areas >where it >can still be done. It is a form of freedom and of hope, and a way of >fighting for a better world. > >In the spring of 1998 various "biocoops" (1) in Brittany were selling >yoghurt under the brand name of Grandeur Nature. However this brand >label - distributed by Le Gall dairies, with only their own name featuring on >the packaging - conceals the real source of the product: a company called >Even, which is a major player in the agribusiness sector in Brittany, and a >supplier of pesticides. Somebody had something to hide. > >In another example, the Bio d'Armor yoghurts which sell in the Gant >hypermarkets are also sold under another label in organic food shops - >Grandeur Nature. The only difference is the packaging and the price. >Then there is the Triballat company, also from Brittany, which produces >organic milk products under the Vrai brand name for the large stores, and >as Les Fromagers de Tradition for the specialist market. But in the second >case >Triballat's name does not feature! The same thing happens with >Distriborg, which is distributing the same organic range under two brand >names, >Bjorg and Evernat. Where is consumer choice if the basic information is so >misleading? > >Selling these goods, sometimes produced or distributed by companies >whose primary interest is in making money, hardly fits with the ethos of the >organic movement. "Is this really the kind of development that we want >to encourage when we buy organic?" asks the editor of an organic gardening >magazine, Antoine Bosse-Platire (2). > >The danger lying behind these smokescreen brands is that the organic >sector is about to become industrialised, because the agribusinesses are >beginning to take a big interest in it. Farmland is increasingly being >switched to organic, and an organic industry is developing based on >mono-cropping. >More seriously, a number of companies are pressing for the present >specifications to be relaxed, under the pretext of speeding up >conversion and making it possible to supply more products at ever-lower >prices. So is this what the future holds? A downmarket and standardised >organic sector >run at rock-bottom costs? > >Key figures in the organic movement say they have to make organic >produce available to people on lower incomes. This is an admirable sentiment, >but in attempting to combat charges of elitism, it is not being completely >straight. After all, even the Carrefour supermarket chain has committed >itself to "making organic food more accessible to ordinary people". What > >this will mean is price-cutting, following the same neo-liberal logic >that has reduced conventional agriculture to its present state of paralysis. >Cutting costs will means cutting jobs and wages, increasing output, >intensifying organic agriculture, and creating an organic industry - >with the inevitable consequence of the disappearance of smaller producers. > >The alternative approach is to guarantee a fair remuneration for both >producers and processors, geared to the quality of the product and the >work that goes into it. This is the only way that small and medium-size >organic producers will preserve their independence. And down the line it will >lead to the creation of jobs and more people buying organic. Failing this, we >will have to invent other guarantees, another label, and other places >where produce can be bought. And the charge that organic produce is too costly > >does not stand up to analysis if we look at the costs of conventional >products in terms of subsidies, damage to health and pollution. > >Economical with the truth >Another sign of the industrialisation of the organic sector relates to a > >concession which allows the introduction of non-organic and occasionally >dubious ingredients up to 5% of content. At present this generally >involves thickeners and gelling agents - such as carrageenan, guar flour, >carob >flour and xanthan gum - which are all moisture retainers used in the >food industry, with effects that some people think may be harmful to health >(3). > >In addition, for some months many shops in France have been selling >chocolates and cakes containing lecithin which is not always organic, >which means there is no guarantee as to the origins of the soya used. Is it >genetically modified or not? When you try to ask, you are told that >these articles carry the AB logo (4), that there are not sufficient supplies >of organic soya lecithin available, and that this non-organic lecithin is >permitted as part of the 5% allowable non-organic content. And anyway, >these products have been classified and even approved by Biocoop (5), so > >there is no reason to remove them from the shelves. Or they tell you >that in due course the supplier intends to become "100% organic". > >It is not enough to raise a public debate on genetically modified >organisms (GMOs), and in particular on Novartis's maize. The only coherent >position is a total boycott. Otherwise we abuse the good faith of the many >customers who buy without reading labels, who trust the AB logo and may >believe >that "organic" products are actually 100% organic and therefore carry no risk >of GMOs. > >If you look further, what do you find behind the soya-based organic >produce marketed under the Soy label (produced by Nutrition et Soja) and >sold in many organic food shops in France? You find Novartis, the giant >drugs >and agro-chemical multinational whose genetically modified anti-meal-moth >maize has been under cultivation in France since spring 1998. That means each >time you buy or sell a Soy product you are contributing to the expansion >of Novartis and encouraging their kind of agriculture, and the kind of >civilisation it conjures up. But Biocoop and some sections of the >eco-organic community suppress this information in order, as they put >it, "not to spread panic among consumers". > >Biocoop decided to grant its seal of approval to the Soy label back in >October 1996, even though it knew perfectly well that it was owned by >Sandoz, another seed and agro-chemical giant - known as the "polluter of > >the Rhine" (after the notorious incident at the Sandoz factories in >Basle on 31 October 1986 when tons of insecticides and mercury-based >fungicides were released into the river). Sandoz had also bought the >Cral brand name. It was not until early 1998 that people heard of the >so-called >"issue of conscience" posed by this decision, as described in Comsom'action >magazine published by Biocoop. Subsequently there was no mention of the >Sandoz-Ciba-Geigy merger which gave birth to Novartis in April 1997, not >even in the acceptance documentation for Soy on 17 March 1998. > >Biocoop has gone to great lengths to justify taking Soy on board, as >shown by the reply to an inquiry from a consumer in June 1998: "We find >ourselves in a situation where a company that belongs to the major producer of >genetically modified foods in France is collaborating with the organic >sector in order to set up a traceability procedure so that the absence >of genetically modified elements can be properly guaranteed." Here you have >two propositions that are hard to reconcile: collaborating with Novartis >in order to "protect soya seeds" in the future! Even basic information is >manipulated: "Soy is currently the only producer in this sector >prioritising the use of French organic soya; all the other processors >work with soya imported from the Canada and the USA" (documentation of 17 >March 1998). > >This is quite untrue. Tofoulie, a cooperative set up in 1991 and >operating in the Drme in Provence, has always worked solely with French >organic soya >- unlike Soy, which uses both non-organic soya (25% of its total output) >and foreign organic soya (7.5%) (6) and hence runs the risk of >contamination by genetically modified soya. And soya certainly does not >represent the totality of leguminous vegetable valuable for crop >rotation. >"Ethics" come a poor second to the harsh logic of business: if it >stopped selling Soy, how would it stock its shelves? > >What seems to be happening is that the acquisition of Soy has given >Novartis a key to entry into the organic market that will enable it to >pull soya producers more or less directly into its sphere of influence. This >means the soya producers of south-west France, who also grow cereals; >other organic suppliers of Soy (Markal, Celnat, Herv, Lima, Petite, Viver >etc); >the distributors (Biocoop, Distriborg, etc); and consumers. As things >stand, Novartis is able to use the organic sector as an alibi, to create >a brand image for "ecological capitalism". > >Already people are talking about "bio-industry", a term they use to >refer both to the industrialisation of the organic sector and the massive >industrialisation of life forms themselves, which is likely to be the >future with the emerging revolution in biotechnology (7). This >conflation and ambiguity is uncomfortably open to exploitation. In this >situation, how >can we properly engage our responsibilities in the future of the organic >sector? And how are we going to find ways to fight multinationals whose >aims are a maximisation of profits and unlimited growth, and certainly >not respect for nature? The danger is that in putting in so much effort to >"save soya" people are forgetting the basic issue, which is the very >survival of organic agriculture in the world of genetic manipulation >which is opening before us. > >Is it really the case that in order to resist being taken over by >agribusiness, the organic sector has no choice but to adopt its models >(competition, emphasising productivity, chasing profits, etc) and accept > >ways of operating that it has for so long rejected? The danger is that >the organic sector is going to lose its identity. Too often in this debate >"ethics" is simply a publicity catch-all which bears no relation to >reality. "Transparency, quality, living together, ecology, organic food, > >consumer action" are all becoming mere slogans in the mouths of many >organic sector professionals - particularly in distribution - who are >fast >turning into marketing technicians. The tendency is towards mergers >between >firms, a proliferation of anonymous products and distributor >brand-names, >and bio-business. > >All this is now becoming the norm, to such an extent that the organic >and >ecological sectors are now tolerating compromises which would have been >unthinkable only a short while ago. There are fewer and fewer >independent >organic companies. In the longer term, the independence of organic >farming >is seriously at risk. One solution might be "autarchic organic farming" >(8) >that aims to return to its roots. Such farming would be local and >respectful of the environment; it would preserve small-scale operations >and >bring life back to deserted rural communities; and it would put >consumers >and producers onto a more equal footing. > >Present tendencies in some parts of the organic sector are putting all >this >at risk. As big multinational companies are eyeing the sector, it is >becoming urgent for organic consumers to stand up and make their >feelings >known. Do we want be witnesses, or rather accomplices, in what is being >prepared for us, or will we opt for real organic choices and quality of >life? This is going to involve questioning the currently fashionable >behaviour patterns of "consumer activists" and "eco-consumers" (9), and >also analysing the notion of sustainable development within which people > >are trying to confine organic agriculture. > >These are choices about the kind of society that we want to live in. >They >lie at the heart of a debate whose outcome will dictate our ways of >feeding >ourselves, our health, and our ways of thinking both about ourselves and > >about the universe. > >* President of the Union des Consommateurs de la Bio (UCBio) > >Translated by Ed Emery > >(1) The Biocoop federation was set up in 1987. It is a distribution >network >for organic produce, representing around 180 biocoops whose aim is to >establish a new kind of relationship between producers and consumers. > >(2) See the article by Antoine Bosse-Plantire, "O acheter bio >demain?", >Les Quatre Saisons du Jardinage, no. 110, Editions Terre Vivante, >May-June >1998. > >(3) Fabien Perucca and Grard Pouradier, Des Poubelles dans nos >Assiettes, >Michel Lafon, Paris, 1996. > >(4) Organic agriculture is a method of farming which uses no synthetic >chemicals and is controlled by certificating bodies recognised by the >French ministry of agriculture. Once an organic product has been >certified >as conforming to government standards, it has the right to the label "AB > >product" or "AB-based product" and, if required, can use the ministry's >green and white AB logo. > >Biocoop recognition is given to organic suppliers who request it, as >long >as they meet the following requirements: independence, support for >organic >production, reduction of middlemen and information on the source of >supplies. The Biocoop product service then draws up the recognition >documentation. This can then be consulted by consumers, and gives >information on the supplier in question: company structure, supplier >policies, distribution policy, etc. >See the acceptance documentation for Soy, 17 March 1998. > >(7) See Jeremy Rifkin, The Biotech Century: Harnessing the Gene and >Remaking the World, JP Tarcher, 1998 (hardback, paperback forthcoming). > >(8) See the editorial in Nature & Progrs, May-June 1998. > >(9) See Raoul Vaneigem, Nous qui dsirons sans fin, Le Cherche Midi, >Paris >1996. > >(10) See Bernard Charbonneau: une vie entire dnoncer la grande >imposture, Ers, Ramonville-Saint-Agne, 1997. This collected volume is >dedicated to Bernard Charbonneau (1910-96) who throughout his life >denounced "the dictatorship of economics", "the lie of technoscience" >and >"the mistakes of political ecology". >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >---- > >ALL RIGHTS RESERVED 1999 Le Monde diplomatique > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 20 13:45:55 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18735 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04190 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:39:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27443; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:38:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27371 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 12:38:12 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dPIUa05038 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:37:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35ea799b.36f3eaee@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 13:37:34 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: What is the future for suppliers of organic produce now thatthe big marke... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 Exactly why I promote CSA, not just Organic. I don't rely on a piece of paper or a label and don't think it's a good idea for anybody to do so. Whenever possible I buy locally-produced material from people with whom I've taken the time and trouble to build a relationship. It ain't always convenient. But it sure pays off. Tried to burn some trash today, ended up with a pretty big grass fire. The volunteers all know me, I've done business with half of the guys who rolled in. I've donated to the Auxilliary when I could, though with my asthma I can't fight fires myself. (Did a darn good job of it while waiting for them though, especially on the barn side, I can tell you!) They were here less than ten minutes after I flagged down a passing truck and asked him to go next door and have the neighbors call the volunteers. I might have gotten the same response if I didn't make it a point of supporting local business but I do believe that Community makes a difference. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 01:29:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26394 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA00891 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 01:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA26050; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:21:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from mb05.swip.net (mb05.swip.net [193.12.122.209]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25496 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:15:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from [130.244.233.30] (dialup233-1-30.swipnet.se [130.244.233.30]) by mb05.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29417; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:15:18 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: mg25209@gaia.swip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:08:07 +0200 To: Leigh Hauter , CSA list From: hans.von.essen@c.lrf.se (Hans von Essen) Subject: Re: Fwd: What is the future for suppliers of organic produce now that the big marketing and distribution companies are moving in? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Maybe the Nordic countries have the longest experience of this problem. Sweden had a kind of CSA movement when the organic movement succeded to enter into supermarkets. Today a little above 9% of all farm land is officially organic and some 3-4% of products sold. Prices for organic products where lowered and it was more comfortable for the consumers. The Swedish more or less CSA-like system which developed in the 1960:ies was too weak to withstand that pressure. I would not take this issue too light if I was in the USA CSA movement. Many organic vegetable producers in Sweden with a diversified production (those that build up the image) are now in serious economic difficulties at the same time as the organic movement is expanding. This problem is today realized within the organic leadership in Sweden. It is necessary to turn back to quality. I think, in consequence, it is necessary to strengthen the CSA work in the direction of rural development to be strong enough to survive, in the way Dori Green describes. Money must circulate within the village to keep the job opportunities there. When people realize that their living base is at stake, this will be a strong enough movive to keep buying local even if it is uncomfortable. Hans von Essen Sweden From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 17:11:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04002 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14120 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA24474; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:58:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from gold.wvnet.edu (gold.wvnet.edu [129.71.2.25]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24388 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 15:57:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from IP004091.DIALUP.WVNET.EDU by gold.wvnet.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.D8FD7E10@gold.wvnet.edu>; 21 Mar 1999 17:04:14 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990321165808.006963d8@wvu.edu> X-Sender: dsauter@wvu.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:58:51 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: "Don T. Sauter" Subject: farm liability insurance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Hello friends, Where do you get your product liability insurance for products that you produce on your farms? I know the Farm Bureau has farm insurance, but I'm a bit resistant to giving them our business (for fear that our membership will be considered one more "vote" for Farm Bureau views which often are at extreme odds from ours). You have to become a member in order to "qualify" for their insurance. Any suggestions appreciated. Susan Truxell Sauter ssauter2@wvu.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 17:39:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04293 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21223 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA25973; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:25:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25913 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:25:09 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dTCUa04995 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:24:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3c1a1a28.36f57183@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:24:03 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: farm liability insurance Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Farm Bureau works for me, and no we don't always agree. Decided I didn't have to stand there looking at a pile of ashes where my house used to stand and no replacement check coming in the mail just to serve my principles. It's a cold world sometimes. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 17:47:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04354 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22771 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26410; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:34:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26149 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 16:30:20 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903212230.QAA26149@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 236750879; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:30:26 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , "Don T. Sauter" Subject: Re: farm liability insurance Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 17:14:33 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Regarding liability insurance, are you really interested in product liability insurance (which protects you from a suit brought, say, by someone made ill from your produce) or just straight farm liability (which protects you from someone tripping over a raised bed and breaking an ankle). The former is , as I understand it, hard to get and expensive. Especially for food-related items. The latter can be provided by most carriers who insure farms (we simply converted a household insurance policy to a farm insurance policy with the same company when we started Five Springs Farm). But we have not as yet considered product liability. It may be prudent, though. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Don T. Sauter > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Subject: farm liability insurance > Date: Sunday, March 21, 1999 4:58 PM > > Hello friends, > > Where do you get your product liability insurance for products that you > produce on your farms? I know the Farm Bureau has farm insurance, but I'm > a bit resistant to giving them our business (for fear that our membership > will be considered one more "vote" for Farm Bureau views which often are at > extreme odds from ours). You have to become a member in order to "qualify" > for their insurance. Any suggestions appreciated. > > > > Susan Truxell Sauter > ssauter2@wvu.edu > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 21:38:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06424 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08884 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA07419; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:23:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07342 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 20:23:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06325 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06647 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:22:59 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:22:59 -0500 (EST) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: farm liability insurance In-Reply-To: <199903212230.QAA26149@firefly.prairienet.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 http://metalab.unc.edu/london InterGarden london@metalab.unc.edu llondon@bellsouth.net On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > Regarding liability insurance, are you really interested in product > liability insurance (which protects you from a suit brought, say, by > someone made ill from your produce) or just straight farm liability (which > protects you from someone tripping over a raised bed and breaking an > ankle). The former is , as I understand it, hard to get and expensive. > Especially for food-related items. The latter can be provided by most > carriers who insure farms (we simply converted a household insurance policy > to a farm insurance policy with the same company when we started Five > Springs Farm). But we have not as yet considered product liability. It may > be prudent, though. I'd suggest getting product liability for your own protection and for access to markets requiring such insurance (many do). Farm Bureau offers PLI and it provides farm liability coverage as well. Their rates are proportional to the gross annual operation of your farm operation. For example, a projected $5000 income will set your insurance rate at around $125 a year. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 22:52:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07476 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25063 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA11252; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:39:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from gwgate.lib.iastate.edu (gwgate.lib.iastate.edu [129.186.11.21]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA11204 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from Parks_Library-Message_Server by gwgate.lib.iastate.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:54 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:48 -0600 From: "Jeff Hall" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Cc: boblkbns@www.mebbs.com Subject: Re: haven't heard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id VAA11205 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 Hi Ron, you might want to plug into a group called the Iowa Network for Community Agriculture. Jan Libbey is the coordinator, her email is libland@kalnet.com. Its a group that came out of several CSA's starting up, with connections to other local food initiatives. Where are you farming/selling? Jeff Hall, Interesting Times Permaculture Garden Elkhart, IA, US >>> "Ron Boyer" 03/20 5:37 AM >>> I haven't heard from anyone in the last day or two so I was wondering if the list was down this is my first letter. I am Ron Boyer from Boyer Black Beans in Iowa.I don't have a CSA but I do raise dry beans and I think later on in the season we should be able to help each other out particularly in the midwest.I have a web page that is not completed yet but if you are interested it is www.blackbeans.com I hope you check it out and I am sure I will be talking to you. PS I farm about 500 acres but I have some of the same problems you have(deer and profits) it has been interesting see you approach to these problem among others Ron Boyer From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 21 23:12:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07766 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28673 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 23:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA12256; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:59:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12197 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:59:33 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dUTGa28780 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:58:11 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:58:11 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: farm liability insurance Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 Susan, The West Coast is not served by The Farm Bureau. We have The Grange instead. Grange insurance is very comprehensive. Home liability, Farm liability, Product liability, Fire, earth quake, volcano eruptions, out buildings, equipment and employee coverage all covered up to $2 million on the basic policy. It cost about double what our home owners policy ran. But it covers everything to do about farming. To get the coverage, one must join the fraternal order of the Grange. Our local chapter has a woman Grange Master, woman Overseer, woman Secretary and woman Treasurer. So what makes it a fraternal organization? The charter. It is a politically and locally active group of concerned farmers who don't allow trivial semantics to get in the way of good works. As with many farmers, there are Spiritual overtones and rituals associated with the business of the organization making it rather secular. Who could ask for more than piece of mind and brotherhood? Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 03:45:50 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10118 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA18472 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA22844; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:28:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA22766 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 02:28:17 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dVLGa28780 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:27:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6a88e70c.36f5fefd@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:27:41 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Grange (was farm liability insurance) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 I can't say enough for the Grange. It's a really wonderful, wonderful organization and a great way to get to know nice people in your community who share your interest in farming. Potluck dinners are fabulous, almost as good as a Lutheran church supper. I'm reactivating my membership this year, part of my general "phoenix" program; I had let it lapse when I was working full time and didn't have enough spare time to spit. Ash Grove rises from the ashes! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 04:14:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10255 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 04:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA23695 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 04:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA23658; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:01:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from ramses.lu.se (ramses.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA23615 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 03:01:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (luetnfs.etn.lu.se [130.235.150.159]) by ramses.lu.se (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA21577 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:02:23 +0100 (MET) Received: from LUETNFS/SpoolDir by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.21); 22 Mar 99 10:13:18 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUETNFS (Mercury 1.30); 22 Mar 99 10:13:02 +0100 Received: from humecol.lu.se by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 22 Mar 99 10:13:00 +0100 Message-ID: <36F60476.3B393E51@humecol.lu.se> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:51:02 +0100 From: Folke =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Community supported, Agriculture" Subject: Ruralisation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id DAA23617 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 In the Global Futures Bulletin #79 and 80, a matter very close to my research field is discussed, city future, and I have added the following remark. Since I think that the issue is of interest also to the CSA-members, I take the liberty to post it also to you, in order to ecourage your work. FG THE FUTURE OF CITIES Folke Gnther [1] A very interesting discussion on urban development has taken place in the GFB #79 and #80 by Peter Newman [2], Ted Trainer [3] and John McLaughlin [4], and in the editorial comments to their compositions. In the discussions, however, some important issues have been foreseen that must be pointed out: I. Energy dependence Urban structures are not only heavily energy using, but also can it be said that they are a result [5] of energy availability. This matter can naturally be discussed, but I think that almost everybody will agree with the statement that a conurbation is heavily energy dependent. Thus, the sustainability of a city is dependent on easily accessible energy. An increasing number of studies [6] doubt that energy will be easily accessible even in the close future. Even in a case where this is not agreed with, it should be taken up as a consideration in the sustainable development discussion. The energy dependence is not only a function of personal transportation/urban sprawl, but also an increasing amount of energy used in the food system. A low estimate is that the food system requires ten times the energy in the food, probably more. The US food system reached that (in)efficiency around 1980 [7]. Since the average food energy needed to sustain a person is about 1000 kWh per year, this means that the food related energy requirements of a person (10 000 kWh/yr) are larger than those of transportation (3 500 kWh/yr) or space heating/cooling (4 000 kWh/yr). Naturally, this correspondingly affects the vulnerability to energy availability of the different systems. Therefore, urban sprawl and urbanisation will only take place in a situation characterised by easily accessible energy. If a habitation system can be found that would diminish this energy dependency considerably, it would be much less vulnerable. II. Nutrient dependency When people live in a crowded area (a conurbation) the food can not be produced locally for its inhabitants (see point I) but must be imported from a wide area. Nutrients, of which phosphorus is the scarcest in the support area, follow the food. Hence fertilisers must be supplied to the food growing area, and they are accumulated in the urban area, or lost into seas or lakes. To my knowledge, there are no cities that maintain a circulation of nutrients to the supporting area, but all have a net import or throughput of nutrients. This situation has several complications. First, there is a support pollution problem. The time-horizon for availability of phosphorus for nutrient production (at current energy prices!) is 100 150 years. In the other end, phosphorus (and nitrogen) compounds are serious water pollutants. To avoid the pollution problem, an increasing part of the cities have installed wastewater plants. If phosphorus is not let out of the area, it will accumulate there, mainly as sludge from the plants. The sludge is deposited in the vicinity, either on landfills or on local agriculture. By this, the accumulation in the area will go on. However, when an increasing amount of nutrients is accumulated in the area the non-point leakage will increase. After some time, the total leakage will amount to a substantial part of the import, and the phosphorus flow is redirected into the flow import accumulation leakage, instead of the earlier import export mode. The end result is the same, however, with depletion in one end and pollution in the other. This is what I call a HEAP-trap (Hampered Effluent Accumulation Processes) [8]. It is clearly an unsustainable conduct. Therefore, urban sprawl and urbanisation will only take place in a situation characterised by easily accessible energy and easily accessible nutrients, especially phosphorus. The only way to avoid this problem is to develop a local food production system that also can re-use the nutrients. The lesser the access to cheap energy and nutrients are, the closer must the loop be. A conclusion: If long-time survival is the issue, local, mainly self-supporting communities must replace the large conurbations. Started soon, the process must not necessarily be very fast. I call this process a ruralisation. [1] Folke Gnther, disserting at Department of Systems Ecology, NMR, Stockholm University, Sweden (Ecological Adaptation of Human Settlements). Lecturer in Division of Human Ecology, Lund University, Sweden. URL:http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm (sorry, most of it is in Swedish) E-mail: Folke.Gunther@humecol.lu.se [2] Newman, Peter 'Cities and Smart Growth' Global Futures Bulletin #79 01 Mar, 1999 [3] Trainer, Ted 'Smart Growth' Global Futures Bulletin #80 15 Mar, 1999 [4] McLaughlin, John Impact of the Net on Urban Planning/Transport Global Futures Bulletin #80 15 Mar, 1999 [5] A diagram shoving the development if cities compared to the global energy use can be found (in an article in swedish) at http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke_g/RURSV2.HTM [6] http://hubbert.mines.edu/ ; http://dieoff.org/page1.htm ; Campbell, C. J., 1997. The Coming Oil Crisis. Multi-Science Publishing Company / Petroconsultants S.A.; Campbell, C. J. and J. H. Laherrre, 1998. The End of Cheap Oil. Scientific American, 3: 78-83 [7] Hall, C.A.S., C.J.Cleveland and R.Kaufmann, 1986. Energy and Resource Quality. Wiley Interscience, New York. [8] Gnther, F., 1997. Hampered Effluent Accumulation Processes: Phosphorus Management and Societal Structure. Ecological Economics, 21, 159-174. Elsevier -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Gnther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievgen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm --- When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it. A.A. Milne From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 08:06:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11941 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00415 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29064; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:52:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com ([208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28983 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 06:51:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from jherr ([207.38.252.9]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:40:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990322044736.00a0e22c@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 04:47:39 +0000 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: Grange (still is farm liability insurance) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 We had USAA coverage on our home. As many know, USAA has just about the lowest rates in the land. But they don't cover ag operations of any kind. So we checked with Grange and for a modest 10% boost in premium we got the farming coverage we needed plus a HUGE increase in liability coverage and insurance for all buildings and equipment. Seems pretty good to us. Thankfully we've never filed a claim. But that will be the real test. Jeff Herr The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 03:27 AM 3/22/99 EST, DGreen47@aol.com wrote: >I can't say enough for the Grange. It's a really wonderful, wonderful >organization and a great way to get to know nice people in your community who >share your interest in farming. Potluck dinners are fabulous, almost as good >as a Lutheran church supper. I'm reactivating my membership this year, part >of my general "phoenix" program; I had let it lapse when I was working full >time and didn't have enough spare time to spit. > >Ash Grove rises from the ashes! > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com > > Jeff Herr TheStreet.com phone: (425) 333-6842 mobile: (425) 985-2913 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 08:58:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12664 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12907 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01531; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:46:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01483 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 07:45:45 -0600 (CST) From: Adenalou@aol.com Received: from Adenalou@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id sYFLa03225 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:45:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:45:06 EST To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: research--is fresh food more nutritious? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Does anyone know of the actual published studies that say fresh food is more nutritious than food that has been sitting around for awhile, or food that wasn't picked ripe? I'm writing my senior thesis on CSA at UT-Austin and haven't gotten my hands on this info. Also, does anyone know where, specifically, the quote about food travelling 1300 miles from field to fork comes from? I've heard the University of Massachusettes, but I'm not sure. Thanks. Please reply to this address: adena@mail.utexas.edu, don't just press reply. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 09:24:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13007 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17253 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02940; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:11:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02546 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:03:38 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dWEQa26764 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:54:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <39452ec0.36f64bb1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:54:57 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Minimizing Risk for Shareholders Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 I've devised two ways to do this -- because let's face it, if people were into delayed gratification and risk the way we are, they'd be farmers too and we wouldn't have a social need for CSAs! 1) Half of every shareholder fee goes into an escrow account, no matter what the temptation might be to spend it on needful things or reimburse me for operating expenses already laid out. This way if I have to I can fill the weekly orders through wholesale purchases. I have shareholders specify if they require only 100% chemical-free produce and if so I make sure that's what they get, otherwise I use my network of other neighboring farmers and wholesale suppliers. I buy some from them every week, mostly to fill in the farm market stands and also to keep a relationship working. 2) If the absolutely worst case scenario happens and there's a total crop failure here at the farm and it's so bad that the escrow money can't replace the shares even at wholesale, shareholders receive a credit to be applied to the next year. Last year's drought coupled with a demanding full-time job and unreliable hired help (as in never showing up when they said they would) hit my garden pretty hard last season, and I ended up offering replacement or credits to my members. Out of 12 (I was running on minimum to start with), only two took credits. Five told me to forget about it, they felt like they had received their money's worth. Five accepted replacements, and the escrow account covered it easily. Needless to say, I ended up not making any money on the garden last year (except for the edible pansy bed, which was a huge success). But without losing any money either, I covered my credibility nicely and reducing the risk factor this way makes it a _lot_ easier to recruit new members for this our major expansion year (going from about two cultivated acres to about eight, yikes). I didn't get into this game with the idea of becoming a distributor. But y'know, it's sort of a public service and might actually pay some of the bills one of these days! I keep my markups very low and everybody seems to be happy with this system. I even make enough so that it covers my time and gas expenses. No, it doesn't match the full "philosophy" of CSA, in which risks are willingly shared with the farmer. When somebody discovers a really good way to sell that idea to civilians, please let me know! Looking at my statistics above, just about half of my shareholders accepted that idea and in fact proposed it. Notice that it was entirely their choice, not written into the agreement -- there's something about human nature that makes it easier to do the right thing sometimes when it isn't legislated. Anybody else have good ideas for minimizing shareholder risk or selling the idea of sharing the risks? Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 09:46:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13618 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21840 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04448; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:33:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03861 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 08:25:19 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dTRDa04840 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:24:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <42f3feee.36f652a0@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 09:24:32 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Using Access for Farm Records (and some other stuff) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 Hokay, I've been a power-user and documentation specialist for Access for several years now. Completely self-taught. Just put together my first multi-table query, linking my list of 700 garden beds (50 blocks of 14 4'x50' beds each) with my list of more than 200 different plant varieties. Omigosh, it worked! What a tool this is going to be, especially when it's time next year to consider crop rotations! I use the Access templates for planning and scheduling workshops and events, keeping member lists, and organizing newsletter articles, recipes, and press releases. Some day my website will get organized in a relational database, too. Between the power of the new Access templates and being able to use Word to design and read web pages, it was worth it to me to shell out $600 of my limited personal funds for Office 97 a couple of months ago. And my computer is going in to the shop next week (aarrrghgh, a whole week) for some minor repair (bolt came off the printer port -- I found my 4-switch box and it's going to be installed so I'm not futzing with the back of the CPU any more) and professional cleanup and Y2K prep. So a big part of this week's work is 100% total backup onto the zip drive disks. Ugh, not my favorite way to spend a day. I'm a little irritated; I had this computer professionally built to my specs and it was supposed to have at least three printer ports. It's got one and two other useless connections. I'm picking up six bottle babies the day after Easter (three doelings, one wether, and two lambs), so this week I'm shoveling and scrubbing the chicken coop to put it into service as a nursery for their two or three-week introduction period (I never put new animals with the existing herd and sometimes keep traveling herd members separate for a couple of weeks when they return from an event -- and don't have disease problems and intend to keep it that way). All feed and weight gain and health observation and treatment records go into my trusty Access files, then summary information goes into QuickBooks Pro. If I wanted to spend more time at the computer and less starting seeds or playing with two-week-old baby goats and four yearling wethers who are b*tchy because I haven't opened that door into summer and the babies are getting so much attention, I could probably set up everything straight from Access. Soon I'll be feeding data straight into QuickBooks Pro, just downloaded the first quarter's banking data straight in but haven't started goofing with it yet. Just in case the computer goes oopsie, I also keep all financial data and important records such as innoculation and breeding and training records in a weekly bookkeeping hardcopy book. I can carry it with me and write down information as transactions happen, makes it very convenient for data entry once a day or at the end of the week. Yes I do too have time to pull weeds. But give me 48 hours notice before walking through the house. I'm saving the world, not working for a housekeeping award. PS -- on that note -- one of my best new products is a place mat that says "Martha Stewart Doesn't Live Here!" !! So I guess I'm not alone in the housekeeping thing. Don't tell anybody, but it's the real reason I'm installing a chemical toilet out in the field -- so visitors don't have an excuse to look inside the house. I keep soap and a stand with a pitcher of water and basin next to the little house under the pear trees. Note: chemical toilets can be rented for the summer or purchased used and pumped when needed. This is also A Good Thing when I have lots of visitors (we don't need an overloaded septic) and when lots of them are strangers, especially young ones, and I don't know how light their fingers might be. Just the realities of opening one's farm to the public. Prevention is better than prosecution. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 12:42:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17713 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA07540 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19077; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:29:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from dinonet1.dinonet.it ([194.21.93.40]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18933 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 11:27:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from lbetti ([194.21.93.112]) by dinonet1.dinonet.it (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11205) with SMTP id AAB234 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 18:27:34 +0100 Message-Id: X-Sender: lbetti@mail.dinonet.it (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:20:12 +0100 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Gabriele Betti Subject: how to find members for an EcoVillage community? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 Hi, I'm trying to set up an EcoVillage in Italy, Tuscany. I'd like to rent a big country house in one of the thousand wonderfull places around there(Tuscany, Chianti wine and so on..) with some land and make a bed & breakfast and a centre for social assistance ...in cooperation with local coop for example, and bio-agricolture... Do you know where I could start with this project from? Internet job sites? Local pages about job offers? Seasonal jobs..? Thanks, Gabriele Betti lbetti@dinonet.it From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 15:10:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14634 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02591; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:06:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02441 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:04:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.114.172.235] (dhcp-172-36.UCSC.EDU [128.114.172.235]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id MAA08656 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:04:28 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: csafarm@cats-po-1.ucsc.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 12:10:40 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: David Oretsky Subject: hello Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 2688 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 Hi there, I've finally joined the CSA listserv and would like to introduce myself. My name is Nancy Vail and my husband is David Oretsky. We are both currently running the CSA program here at the UC Santa Cruz Farm & Garden with the hopes of eventually locating land and beginning our own CSA farm. Each spring 35-40 people from around the world come to the Farm & Garden to take part in the six-month Apprenticeship in Ecological Horticulture, offered through the Center for Agroecology & Sustainable Food Systems. Under the direction of the training staff, apprentices manage the 25-acre Farm and 2-acre Alan Chadwick Garden, learning to grow and care for a variety of vegetables, fruits, herbs and flowers using organic methods. Now in our 5th year, the CSA program offers 40 full and 40 half shares. We mainly target the University community. All members pick up at the farm and there's a self serve herb and flower garden for CSA members to use to supplement their boxes. With a combination of classes, guest lectures, field trips and hands on practical training, apprentices gain the necessary skills to begin their careers in farming. Since the program began in 1967 over 700 graduates have gone on to start their own CSA farms, work in community gardens, participate in overseas development projects , school gardens, on-farm training programs, etc... The Apprenticehip is part of UCSC's Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems. Center staff and faculty work to research, develop and advance sustainable food and agricultural systems which are environmentally sound, economically viable, socially responsible, nonexploitative and which serve as a foundation for future generations. Center staff conduct research as well as offer an extensive public education program. At present, the Apprenticeship program generates most of its own funding through produce sales, apprentice tuition, and public events. To continue and to expand its work, the Apprenticeship is seeking support from foundations, businesses and individuals who share our commitment to working toward a more sustainable agriculture. For more information about the Apprenticeship, CSA, and the Center please write or call: The Center for Agroecology & Sustainable Food Systems (CASFS) 1156 High St. University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 Apprenticeship tel (831) 459-4140 CSA tel (831) 459-3336 fax (831) 459-2799 web page http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs Looking forward to sharing information! Sincerely, Nancy Vail Nancy Vail and David Oretsky CSA Coordinators Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems University of California at Santa Cruz Santa Cruz, CA 95064 (408)459-3336 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 15:31:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21190 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA04672; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:30:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04468 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:57 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA05594; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 14:28:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from wor-ma1-16.ix.netcom.com(205.184.168.48) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005488; Mon Mar 22 14:27:21 1999 Message-ID: <012e01be74a2$31e27040$27a8b8cd@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Minimizing Risk for Shareholders Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 15:25:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1576 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 > Dori wrote: >No, it doesn't match the full "philosophy" of CSA, in which risks are >willingly shared with the farmer. When somebody discovers a really good way >to sell that idea to civilians, please let me know! Looking at my statistics >above, just about half of my shareholders accepted that idea and in fact >proposed it. Notice that it was entirely their choice, not written into the >agreement -- there's something about human nature that makes it easier to do >the right thing sometimes when it isn't legislated. > >Anybody else have good ideas for minimizing shareholder risk or selling the >idea of sharing the risks? > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com > > We felt uncomfortable with the sharing the risk aspect of CSA as well. It make "philosophical" sense but doesn't make good business sense especially when its your first year and you hope your members will return and bring more members. I have never mentioned this risk thing in my flyer. We decided if we bombed we would refund their money. Thank goodness the odds on bombing aren't high and our garden was beautiful. I think all people realize that one crop may not do well and won't have a fit if they get a few less of one thing. Our cucumbers were our only crop that wasn't great although I think I made quota. We forgot to plant the parsnips no one even asked. On my flyer this year under amount of garlic I wrote new crop see how it grows. Didn't want to promise. But we will all have a good year this year! Beth From london@metalab.unc.edu Sun Mar 21 22:52:31 1999 -0500 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07476 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25063 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 22:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA11252; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:39:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from gwgate.lib.iastate.edu (gwgate.lib.iastate.edu [129.186.11.21]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA11204 for ; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from Parks_Library-Message_Server by gwgate.lib.iastate.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:54 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:38:48 -0600 From: "Jeff Hall" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Cc: boblkbns@www.mebbs.com Subject: Re: haven't heard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id VAA11205 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 Hi Ron, you might want to plug into a group called the Iowa Network for Community Agriculture. Jan Libbey is the coordinator, her email is libland@kalnet.com. Its a group that came out of several CSA's starting up, with connections to other local food initiatives. Where are you farming/selling? Jeff Hall, Interesting Times Permaculture Garden Elkhart, IA, US >>> "Ron Boyer" 03/20 5:37 AM >>> I haven't heard from anyone in the last day or two so I was wondering if the list was down this is my first letter. I am Ron Boyer from Boyer Black Beans in Iowa.I don't have a CSA but I do raise dry beans and I think later on in the season we should be able to help each other out particularly in the midwest.I have a web page that is not completed yet but if you are interested it is www.blackbeans.com I hope you check it out and I am sure I will be talking to you. PS I farm about 500 acres but I have some of the same problems you have(deer and profits) it has been interesting see you approach to these problem among others Ron Boyer From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 22 23:11:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23539 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 23:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07927; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:07:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07788 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:06:12 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dXMOa03692 for ; Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:59:13 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <5a508908.36f71191@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 22:59:13 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Sharing Risk for CSAs: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1512 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 >> It makes "philosophical" sense but doesn't make good business sense especially when its your first year and you hope your members will return and bring more members. I have never mentioned this risk thing in my flyer.>> Shame, shame, shame! As organic farmers my family's income has dropped to 20% of the income we enjoyed treating diseases rather than preventing them. The wise consumer understands the hard work and low pay farmers must commit to in order to support their community. Responsible planning, a strong work ethic and responsiveness to feedback are all we guarantee our share holders. We have every subscriber sign a one paragraph contract that reads; "As a member of Ocean Sky Farm CSA I understand that I am making a financial obligation for the 1999 season. I accept the inherent risks of farming and thereby receive no guarantee on the amounts of produce that I will receive. It is my responsibility to either pick up my subscription or make other arrangements for pick up on the designated pick up day." Although we have had a crop failure or two, our subscribers feel that they are getting a good deal. They keep coming back and referring their friends to the CSA. We don't understand why farmers feel they must promise good weather and harvests. Its a dance. Sometimes your toes get stepped on. Sometimes you step on other people's toes. But it is still enjoyable for every participant. Relax, do your best and be sincere. Your subscribers will understand. Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 06:14:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA16248 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA22720; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:12:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA22654 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 05:11:35 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dCKVa28778 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:10:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:10:45 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Sharing Risk for CSAs: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 3094 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 Do note that almost half of last year's membership volunteered to share the drought losses with me and I didn't even ask. They're keepers! Mindset here in a very rural piece of Upstate New York is very different from the mindset in the Pacific Northwest, which is in general more progressive in its thinking and more understanding/accepting of the concept that "community" means more than "location". I tried for three years in a row to hang on to the formal "I'm sharing the risk with the farmer" clause in the shareholder agreement -- and had a devil of a time getting _anybody_ to sign up. Took it out and went to the escrow/wholesale-as-a-backup method and my business is exploding. Of course, maybe it's just Y2K fever. And maybe a few more people are understanding the truth of "Pay your organic farmer or pay your oncologist." But they still don't want to hear that message and as the _only_ organic farmer in this area I have to be a little bit careful not to get a reputation for being "strident". I Get It. You Get It. Not everybody is quite as brilliant and intuitive as we are. ;-D So I state the non-controversial truths. My produce tastes wonderful (it does). It's good for you (it is). Buying direct form the farmer helps the farmer and helps the consumer -- the farmer gets more of the dollar and the consumer spends fewer dollars. Around here it's a major victory to get people to consider eating vegetables and real whole food rather than pre-packaged instant microwaveable or fast- food restaurant crud. After I've got them up that first rung of the ladder, then we'll start adding the other messages. In many instances around here, putting up an "organically grown" sign or sticker is actually an _anti_ marketing device. Many people assume it's a) expensive, b) bug-ridden, c) exposed to animal wastes ("dirty") and won't even approach the stand. Yes, yes, I could sell out and move to an area that's more open to the message. And I almost did just that not too long ago. To Whidbey Island near Seattle, in fact. But I've decided that I've been drawn to this place for a reason. It's very obvious that this community needs what I'm doing. Maybe they'll come around, maybe they won't. Until I have enough CSA members to support the farm I'll continue to diversify to an extent that would make anybody crazy and work off- farm jobs where and when I can get them. And I'll continue to grow good dirt here. Harvests are just a bonus from that project. And isn't the statement above about as close as we're going to come to a definitive definition of sustainable agriculture -- even if it's a concept that's real hard to get across to civilians? I'm still taking baby steps here, Art. Give me another ten years and you'll be able to see my pillar of transformational fire all the way from Deception Pass Bridge! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Special membership benefits for long-distance members! http://www.agrove.com/members.html and still looking for a few good apprentices, interns, or partners! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 07:15:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25836 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24636; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:13:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24571 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 06:12:45 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D6D43N8H; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:12:24 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 07:07:27 -0500 Subject: More Monsanto stuff/Soy, allergies and such.... Message-ID: <19990323.070736.-376453.3.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,6,8-9,11,13-34,36,38-40,42,44-45,47-54,56,58-63,65-66,68-72,74,76,78-79,81,83,85-87,89-90,92-96,98-99,101,103,105-106,108-120 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 4718 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 >From another list..... > > Hi! > > Since many of you (and me too!) pay attention to allergic, intolerance, or > toxic reactions to foods, I thought that this article from the UK may be > of interest. It discussions genetically-engineered soy and possible > adverse effect being seen in humans. Avoiding non-organic soy ingredients > (where possible) can eliminate the risks discussed in the article. Organic > foods are safer and healthier in general, in my opinion. Of course, > they're not always available. :-) > > --------------- > BEGIN ENCLOSURE > --------------- > > First official results of the global experiment are in - soya allergies > dramatically increased in the last year. Prime > suspect - GM soya! Stand up Monsanto - where is your insurance??? > We wait eagerly for the Health Ministers rebuttal. > York Nutritional Laboratory has had a busy day on the phone, but if the > media in your country want to follow this up they > are happy to be contacted. > Tel: +44 1904 690640 > > Daily Express 12 March 99 > Why soya is a hidden destroyer > > Exclusive by Mark Townsend > > Fresh fears over the safety of genetically modified foods surfaced faced > yesterday after new research revealed that food allergies relating to soya > Increased by 50 per cent last year > > A study by Europe's leading specialists on food sensitivity found health > complaints caused by soya - the ingredient most associated with GM foods - > have increased from 10 in 100 patients to 15 in 100 over the past year. > Researchers at the York Nutritional Laboratory said their findings provide > real evidence that GM food could have a tangible, harmful impact on the > human body > > The findings were sent to Health Secretary Frank Dobson last night as > scientists urged the Government to act on the information and impose an > instant ban on GM food, while further safety tests are carried out. Dr > Michael Antoniou, senior lecturer in molecular pathology at Guy's > Hospital, Central London,, said: "This is a very interesting if slightly > worrying, development. "It points to the fact that far more work is needed > to assess their safety. At the moment no allergy tests are carried out > before GM foods are marketed and that also needs to be looked at." > > John Graham, spokesman for the York laboratory, said: "We believe this > raises serious new questions about the safety of GM foods because it is > impossible to guarantee that the soya used in the tests was GM-free." It > is the first time in 17 years of testing that soya has crept into the > laboratory's top 10 foods to cause an allergic reaction in consumers. The > vegetable has moved up four places to ninth end now sits alongside > foodstuffs with a long history of causing allergies, such as yeast, > sunflower seeds and nuts > > Mr. Graham said researchers tested 4,500 people for allergic reactions to > vegetables including soya. Among the range of chronic illnesses it caused > were irritable bowel syndrome, digestiontion problems and skin complaints > including acne and eczema. "People also suffered neurological problems > with chronic fatigue syndrome, headaches and lethargy. It is worrying," Mr > Graham added. Researchers measured the levels of antibodies in a person's > blood. If increased levels were detected it showed the person suffered an > adverse reaction to a particular food. > > Soya, the wonder crop of the 20th century is found in 60 per cent of all > processed foods sold in the UK - from bread to baby food, ready-to-eat > curries to vegetarian lasagne. But because GM and natural soya are mixed > at source in America - the world's biggest supplier - it has become > increasingly difficult for retailers to guarantee the purity of any > products. > > Last month campaigners from Greenpeace dumped four tons of GM soya beans > from America at the gates of Downing Street in protest. The Consumers' > Association yesterday renewed its demand for the Government to investigate > the safety of GM foods. A spokesman said: "We just don't know what health > problems could arise in the future. Waitrose yesterday announced that it > would be stocking its own-label GM-free foods by the end of the month. > Managing director David Felwick said: "We believe customers should be able > to make an informed choice about the products they are buying." > > ------------ - -- Debbie McDonald mailto:lullwatr@flash.net ------------------------------ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 10:16:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06863 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05295; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:14:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05160 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 09:13:38 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id sIDIa03225 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:12:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3e07fb09.36f7af58@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:12:24 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Sharing Risk for CSAs: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 695 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 << But I've decided that I've been drawn to this place for a reason. It's very obvious that this community needs what I'm doing. Maybe they'll come around, maybe they won't. Until I have enough CSA members to support the farm I'll continue to diversify to an extent that would make anybody crazy and work off- farm jobs where and when I can get them. >> Though she walks through the valley of death, she will have no fear. It's not hard to see Spirit working here. Spirit is wherever one finds love, co-creation and free will. Fortunately, Spirit challenges us only to the point that we can handle. Bless you and keep that transformational fire burning. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 11:27:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24439 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11384; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:25:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11291 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:25:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA25714; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:24:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from wor-ma1-21.ix.netcom.com(205.184.168.53) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma025560; Tue Mar 23 10:23:28 1999 Message-ID: <001601be7549$42478b80$35a8b8cd@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Sharing Risk for CSAs: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:21:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 2544 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 Dori wrote:(I have snipped some of the post) > >Mindset here in a very rural piece of Upstate New York is very different from >the mindset in the Pacific Northwest, which is in general more progressive in >its thinking and more understanding/accepting of the concept that "community" >means more than "location". > >I > >So I state the non-controversial truths. My produce tastes wonderful (it >does). It's good for you (it is). Buying direct form the farmer helps the >farmer and helps the consumer -- the farmer gets more of the dollar and the >consumer spends fewer dollars. > >Around here it's a major victory to get people to consider eating vegetables >and real whole food rather than pre-packaged instant microwaveable or fast- >food restaurant crud. After I've got them up that first rung of the ladder, >then we'll start adding the other messages. > >>But I've decided that I've been drawn to this place for a reason. It's very >obvious that this community needs what I'm doing. Maybe they'll come around, >maybe they won't. Until I have enough CSA members to support the farm I'll >continue to diversify to an extent that would make anybody crazy and work off- >farm jobs where and when I can get them. >And isn't the statement above about as close as we're going to come to a >definitive definition of sustainable agriculture -- even if it's a concept >that's real hard to get across to civilians? > >I'm still taking baby steps here, Art. Give me another ten years and you'll >be able to see my pillar of transformational fire all the way from Deception >Pass Bridge! > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > I agree with everything that Dori wrote. Although I live in the flip side of her local ie rural vs suburban. We are a bit of an oasis in suburbia, as Doris says they haven't got it yet. Things around her are to anonymous and convenient. Half dozen grocery stores, in summer various conventional farm stands, plus two income busy people hesitant to try any new concept. We like Dori are taking baby steps, off farm jobs have been kept. We are trying to develop a reputation for quality and I suppose quantity. I feel like we are standing on Jello we've got a few years of tenuous business struggle but I am optimistic that some day when people hear Green Hill Farm they say "Thats a great place" Now they say "There is a farm in Shrewsbury?" So Art count your blessings and as Dori said before we must be Sustainable to continue on to that bright "get it " future. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 12:56:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18075 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17993; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:53:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17919 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:53:11 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dNEJa20204 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:49:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <150010e5.36f7d430@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:49:36 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Sharing Risk for CSAs: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1122 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 In a message dated 3/23/99 10:14:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, SCook21809@aol.com writes: << Though she walks through the valley of death, she will have no fear. >> ...because she is the Herd Boss and the meanest cast-iron B**ch in this here valley! My heroes are Xena, Judge Judy, Della Reese, and Emma Peel! Hey, let's not kid ourselves. The Environment sometimes needs us to be warriors even if we do choose to be peaceful ones. BTW, consider for just one moment that maybe there is no such thing as Death, that it's just a threat that those who choose to oppress us invented to hold over our heads. Once we expand our thinking to include that possibility there is absolutely _nothing_ that can frighten us or turn us aside from the path we know is right. Lots of people are into CSA because it's a great marketing tool. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. And some of us are out to change the world; it's a good tool for that, too. It ain't an easy path all the time, but it's sure a satisfying one! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 13:43:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01066 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22264; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:38:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from ic4.ithaca.edu (ic4.ithaca.edu [147.129.1.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22167 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 12:37:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from ithaca.edu (ic069163.ithaca.edu [147.129.69.163]) by ic4.ithaca.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #30132) with ESMTP id <01J966O6A0DA00056W@ic4.ithaca.edu> for csa-l@prairienet.org; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:37:13 EST Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:39:43 -0500 From: Debbie Teeter Subject: Re: Minimizing Risk for Shareholders To: csa-l@prairienet.org Message-id: <36F7DFEE.9CAF3B4F@ithaca.edu> Organization: Ithaca College MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: MULTIPART/ALTERNATIVE; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_qpLhSDIt2p6x/YljL8/BvA)" References: <39452ec0.36f64bb1@aol.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 12687 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 --Boundary_(ID_qpLhSDIt2p6x/YljL8/BvA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Interesting thread - I've enjoyed reading other folks' comments! Dori has definately hit upon something that works for her and her shareholders - you go, girl! When we first started, we talked about risk in terms of serious-to-total crop loss due to potentially "bad" weather. Experience has taught us that although there can be "bad" weather if you're monocropping, the crop variety with CSA has shown us that certain weather conditions can be "bad" for some crops and "good" for others. So now we talk about risk in terms of what we plan to give and how weather conditions might impact that plan. Our take is that the risk in CSA is that you might not get as much of your favorite veggies as you hoped, and may wind up with lots of something(s) you don't particularly care for. A question for Art: Do you sign something for your shareholders as well promising to do what is necessary to ensure a harvest (i.e. ordering your seeds in a timely manner, starting your seedlings on time, transplnating on time, weeding, watering, etc. - responsibly farming stuff)? > "As a member of Ocean Sky Farm CSA I understand that I am making a financial obligation for the 1999 season. I accept the inherent risks of farming and thereby receive no guarantee on the amounts of produce that I will receive. It is my responsibility to either pick up my subscription or make other arrangements for pick up on the designated pick up day." I'm not being critical, just wondering. We don't have our shareholders sign anything formal, but we do talk about risks (as outlined above) and responsibility, which is where we cover the "please pick up your stuff each week" issue. We also talk about our responsibilities as farmers to act as stewards of the land and also to plan, organize and do our job right so if there is a shortage it won't be because we never got around to planting something, or we went on vacation and the weeds got out of control, etc... We've heard some real horror stories about CSA's that failed because the farmer was inexperienced or negligient. An experience like that makes it real hard for a folks to "trust" again. We've got several shareholders this year with that exact background (their experience was not necessarily from around here), and they came to us because we've been at it a few years and could provide references. Hmm... that's a little off topic, but I guess my question for Art was to determine whether or not he sees responsibility as going both ways, and if so does he cover his responsiblities to shareholders in a similar way to what he requires from them (I'm asking this with a smile - sometimes things in print don't come across the way you mean them). Thanks for your time, Debbie Teeter A.J. Teeter Farm Ithaca NY DGreen47@aol.com wrote: > I've devised two ways to do this -- because let's face it, if people were into > delayed gratification and risk the way we are, they'd be farmers too and we > wouldn't have a social need for CSAs! > > 1) Half of every shareholder fee goes into an escrow account, no matter what > the temptation might be to spend it on needful things or reimburse me for > operating expenses already laid out. This way if I have to I can fill the > weekly orders through wholesale purchases. I have shareholders specify if > they require only 100% chemical-free produce and if so I make sure that's what > they get, otherwise I use my network of other neighboring farmers and > wholesale suppliers. I buy some from them every week, mostly to fill in the > farm market stands and also to keep a relationship working. > > 2) If the absolutely worst case scenario happens and there's a total crop > failure here at the farm and it's so bad that the escrow money can't replace > the shares even at wholesale, shareholders receive a credit to be applied to > the next year. Last year's drought coupled with a demanding full-time job and > unreliable hired help (as in never showing up when they said they would) hit > my garden pretty hard last season, and I ended up offering replacement or > credits to my members. Out of 12 (I was running on minimum to start with), > only two took credits. Five told me to forget about it, they felt like they > had received their money's worth. Five accepted replacements, and the escrow > account covered it easily. > > Needless to say, I ended up not making any money on the garden last year > (except for the edible pansy bed, which was a huge success). But without > losing any money either, I covered my credibility nicely and reducing the risk > factor this way makes it a _lot_ easier to recruit new members for this our > major expansion year (going from about two cultivated acres to about eight, > yikes). > > I didn't get into this game with the idea of becoming a distributor. But > y'know, it's sort of a public service and might actually pay some of the bills > one of these days! I keep my markups very low and everybody seems to be happy > with this system. I even make enough so that it covers my time and gas > expenses. > > No, it doesn't match the full "philosophy" of CSA, in which risks are > willingly shared with the farmer. When somebody discovers a really good way > to sell that idea to civilians, please let me know! Looking at my statistics > above, just about half of my shareholders accepted that idea and in fact > proposed it. Notice that it was entirely their choice, not written into the > agreement -- there's something about human nature that makes it easier to do > the right thing sometimes when it isn't legislated. > > Anybody else have good ideas for minimizing shareholder risk or selling the > idea of sharing the risks? > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > Corning, NY > > http://www.agrove.com --Boundary_(ID_qpLhSDIt2p6x/YljL8/BvA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Interesting thread - I've enjoyed reading other folks' comments!

Dori has definately hit upon something that works for her and her shareholders - you go, girl!

When we first started, we talked about risk in terms of serious-to-total crop loss due to potentially "bad" weather.  Experience has taught us that although there can be "bad" weather if you're monocropping, the crop variety with CSA has shown us that certain weather conditions can be "bad" for some crops and "good" for others.  So now we talk about risk in terms of what we plan to give and how weather conditions might impact that plan.  Our take is that the risk in CSA is that you might not get as much of your favorite veggies as you hoped, and may wind up with lots of something(s) you don't particularly care for.

A question for Art:  Do you sign something for your shareholders as well promising to do what is necessary to ensure a harvest (i.e. ordering your seeds in a timely manner, starting your seedlings on time, transplnating on time, weeding, watering, etc. - responsibly farming stuff)?

   > "As a member of Ocean Sky Farm CSA I understand that I am making a financial
obligation for the 1999 season.  I accept the inherent risks of farming and
thereby receive no guarantee on the amounts of produce that I will receive.
It is my responsibility to either pick up my subscription or make other
arrangements for pick up on the designated pick up day."

I'm not being critical, just wondering.  We don't have our shareholders sign anything formal, but we do talk about risks (as outlined above) and responsibility, which is where we cover the "please pick up your stuff each week" issue.  We also talk about our responsibilities as farmers to act as stewards of the land and also to plan, organize and do our job right so if there is a shortage it won't be because we never got around to planting something, or we went on vacation and the weeds got out of control, etc...  We've heard some real horror stories about CSA's that failed because the farmer was inexperienced or negligient.  An experience like that makes it real hard for a folks to "trust" again.  We've got several shareholders this year with that exact background (their experience was not necessarily from around here), and they came to us because we've been at it a few years and could provide references.

Hmm... that's a little off topic, but I guess my question for Art was to determine whether or not he sees responsibility as going both ways, and if so does he cover his responsiblities to shareholders in a similar way to what he requires from them (I'm asking this with a smile - sometimes things in print don't come across the way you mean them).

Thanks for your time,

Debbie Teeter
A.J. Teeter Farm
Ithaca NY
 
 
 
 

DGreen47@aol.com wrote:

I've devised two ways to do this -- because let's face it, if people were into
delayed gratification and risk the way we are, they'd be farmers too and we
wouldn't have a social need for CSAs!  <G>

1)  Half of every shareholder fee goes into an escrow account, no matter what
the temptation might be to spend it on needful things or reimburse me for
operating expenses already laid out.  This way if I have to I can fill the
weekly orders through wholesale purchases.  I have shareholders specify if
they require only 100% chemical-free produce and if so I make sure that's what
they get, otherwise I use my network of other neighboring farmers and
wholesale suppliers.  I buy some from them every week, mostly to fill in the
farm market stands and also to keep a relationship working.

2)  If the absolutely worst case scenario happens and there's a total crop
failure here at the farm and it's so bad that the escrow money can't replace
the shares even at wholesale, shareholders receive a credit to be applied to
the next year.  Last year's drought coupled with a demanding full-time job and
unreliable hired help (as in never showing up when they said they would) hit
my garden pretty hard last season, and I ended up offering replacement or
credits to my members.  Out of 12 (I was running on minimum to start with),
only two took credits.  Five told me to forget about it, they felt like they
had received their money's worth.  Five accepted replacements, and the escrow
account covered it easily.

Needless to say, I ended up not making any money on the garden last year
(except for the edible pansy bed, which was a huge success).  But without
losing any money either, I covered my credibility nicely and reducing the risk
factor this way makes it a _lot_ easier to recruit new members for this our
major expansion year (going from about two cultivated acres to about eight,
yikes).

I didn't get into this game with the idea of becoming a distributor.  But
y'know, it's sort of a public service and might actually pay some of the bills
one of these days!  I keep my markups very low and everybody seems to be happy
with this system.  I even make enough so that it covers my time and gas
expenses.

No, it doesn't match the full "philosophy" of CSA, in which risks are
willingly shared with the farmer.  When somebody discovers a really good way
to sell that idea to civilians, please let me know!  Looking at my statistics
above, just about half of my shareholders accepted that idea and in fact
proposed it.  Notice that it was entirely their choice, not written into the
agreement -- there's something about human nature that makes it easier to do
the right thing sometimes when it isn't legislated.

Anybody else have good ideas for minimizing shareholder risk or selling the
idea of sharing the risks?

Dori Green
Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living
Corning, NY

http://www.agrove.com

  --Boundary_(ID_qpLhSDIt2p6x/YljL8/BvA)-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Mar 23 17:00:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20543 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12976; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:58:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12867 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:57:37 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dKMDa00355 for ; Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:52:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:52:23 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Minimizing Risk for Shareholders Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 748 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Deb Teeter pointed out quite rightly that "bad" weather for some crops is "good" for others, so diversification rather than monocropping tends by its very nature to minimize risk to shareholders (and farmers). Hee hee, I've got a few members who've been in on this with me from my meager start in 1991. Anybody else here old enough to remember the Big Muddy of 1992 when the temps even in moderate parts of the Northeast never got higher than 70? I'm under threat of slow and agonizing death by a few of those folks if I ever again give them Swiss Chard in quantities even close to those of that season. Success can be dangerous, too! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 11:18:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05557 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08369; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:16:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08265 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:15:06 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dOKAa13701 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:07:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:07:23 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: CSA & Homesteading Workshop Weekend Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 2172 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 WHEN: June 18-20, 1999 WHERE: Ash Grove Community Farm, Corning NY WHAT: Buncha workshops. Want to teach one? I've got professionals coming in, too. I'll teach some, but not all! Possible workshops include the following. Vote now! Fencing Field Shelters Goats Poultry Grants CSA Creation & Maintenance Organic gardening Certification Marketing Wildcrafting Garden structures Old house repair Making herbal products Alliances and Private-label sales Farm markets Market gardening (not always the same as organic gardening) Instant garden with permanent raised beds Agro-forestry Animal rescue Field trips to a meat goat farm, Draper Super Bee Apiary, a goat dairy, a monastery sheep operation, a cement statue manufacturer, a u-pick strawberry farm (ice cream, anyone?) and a very successful diversified farm/greenhouse/ice cream parlor business. If it's worth an extra $10 to enough folks, I can hire my friend Ed and his team to take y'all on the one-hour "around the block" tour. He requires $300 for an afternoon (includes all of the exhorbitant insurances). Anybody who takes the accommodations option and wishes to do so may add a day or two to the beginning or end of the weekend for $50 per day (including meals), in order to enjoy the many attractions of this area. We need to know right away if folks want to do this. If we get at least ten (and they have room), accommodations will be at Watson Homestead Conference and Retreat Center near Corning. If they're full by the time we get their minimum number assembled, we'll find someplace else -- we're blessed with quite a few options! HOW MUCH: $200 with meals and hotel-type accommodations Fri. & Sat. nights $150 with meals and hotel-type accommodations Sat. night only $100 with meals if you find your own accommodations $50 if you find your own accommodations and provide own meals $100 deposit required ASAP to reserve accommodations. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 11:50:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13876 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA10778; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:49:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10723 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 10:48:58 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dMWTa13700 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:44:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:44:01 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Minimizing Risk for Shareholders Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 2008 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 << Do you sign something for your shareholders as well promising to do what is necessary to ensure a harvest (i.e. ordering your seeds in a timely manner, starting your seedlings on time, transplanting on time, weeding, watering, etc. - responsibly farming stuff)? >> Right on Debbie! In my attempts to be brief I over look important details in these threads. Your attention to them is greatly appreciated. ;-) Yes we make a similar one paragraph commitment to our subscribers. "Your CSA Subscription supports open green space, recycling, local organic agriculture and real health care reform. Our goal is to provide a $20.00 bag of groceries a week to subscribers. There are some inherent risks associated with farming that may temper these benefits. However, the diversity of Ocean Sky Farm produce makes occasional crop losses more of a disappointment than a food value loss." We are able to start the season in April because we have things like honey and dried tomatoes from last fall. We also distribute fresh prepared horse radish, herbal soaps and skin cream samples when spring is late. We start sending out monthly newsletters to all subscribers in January that describe what is growing, when the green houses went up, how the seedlings are doing in the seed room and how current weather is affecting the farm. The newsletter becomes a weekly item during the CSA season. Beth's comments on reputation cannot be taken seriously enough. We give tours to all of the schools in the City of Bainbridge Island and others. We give classes at local nurseries, Granges, the county solid waste department and the Cooperative Extension Service. The best way to build a reputation is to nurture one in public. We have a huge swing set, massive sand box and a couple of jungle gyms for kids to play on as visitors take self guided tours. Adults and their kids need to be entertained before you can inform them in this culture. Now I gotta go farm....... Art From london@metalab.unc.edu Wed Mar 24 07:49:54 1999 -0500 Received: from toucan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (toucan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.98]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA00700 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 07:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [38.27.198.209] (ip209.minneapolis6.mn.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.198.209]) by toucan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA20214 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 04:43:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903241243.EAA20214@toucan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 06:45:19 -0600 Subject: Re: farm liability insurance From: "David Washburn" To: Larry London Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 Everett, We do have product liability, as well as, regular liability through Farm Bureau. I'll check to make sure it covers our food. I know we are covered for the equipment. You are a named insured. --- Regards, David Washburn RED CARDINAL FARM, Inc. dba BCS Metro phone (651) 653-8038; fax (651)653-3556; cell (612)366-1458 ---------- >From: Larry London >To: CSA-L@prairienet.org >Subject: Re: farm liability insurance >Date: Sun, Mar 21, 1999, 8:22 PM > > >http://metalab.unc.edu/london InterGarden >london@metalab.unc.edu llondon@bellsouth.net > >On Sun, 21 Mar 1999, Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > >> Regarding liability insurance, are you really interested in product >> liability insurance (which protects you from a suit brought, say, by >> someone made ill from your produce) or just straight farm liability (which >> protects you from someone tripping over a raised bed and breaking an >> ankle). The former is , as I understand it, hard to get and expensive. >> Especially for food-related items. The latter can be provided by most >> carriers who insure farms (we simply converted a household insurance policy >> to a farm insurance policy with the same company when we started Five >> Springs Farm). But we have not as yet considered product liability. It may >> be prudent, though. > > >I'd suggest getting product liability for your own protection and >for access to markets requiring such insurance (many do). > >Farm Bureau offers PLI and it provides farm liability coverage >as well. Their rates are proportional to the gross annual operation of >your farm operation. For example, a projected $5000 income will set your >insurance rate at around $125 a year. > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 14:48:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26936 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25837; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:45:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from killian.chelsea.net ([207.25.36.14]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25628 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:43:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from oemcomputer (amelia-a47.pins.ny.us.chelsea.net [207.25.44.47]) by killian.chelsea.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA11942 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 14:42:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003501be762e$824844a0$2f2c19cf@oemcomputer> From: "Shana Berger" To: Subject: looking for farm apprentices in NY Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 13:37:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE75FB.65F8D540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 964 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE75FB.65F8D540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Threshold Farm is looking for two apprentices from April- Nov and June through August. Please do not write back to me! Write to: Hugh Williams and Hanna Bail Threshold Farm P.O. Box 701 Claverack, NY 12513 ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE75FB.65F8D540 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="Just Food.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Just Food.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD VERSION:2.1 N:Food;Just FN:Just Food ORG:Just Food TITLE:CSA Coordinator in NYC TEL;WORK;VOICE:(212) 677-1602 TEL;WORK;FAX:(212) 677-1603 ADR;WORK:;;625 Broadway, Suite 9C;New York;NY;10012-6211 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:625 Broadway, Suite = 9C=3D0D=3D0ANew York, NY 10012-6211 REV:19990324T183702Z END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BE75FB.65F8D540-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 16:04:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18039 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 16:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01665; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:02:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp3.jps.net (smtp3.jps.net [209.63.224.129]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01538 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 15:01:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (209-142-38-86.stk.jps.net [209.142.38.86]) by smtp3.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17955 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:06:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36F8DF1D.7C1525EC@jps.net> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 12:48:30 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Contract, program, and survey examples References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 723 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 I really appreciate the posts including excerpts from your contracts. I have never used a contract, but it seems that subscribers would prefer to have some kind of formal process for joining the CSA, so I have started a text file of examples I like. A while back someone posted how they get apprentices, working 4 hours/wk for 24 weeks to earn a SHARE with no SHARE until completing at least 18 weeks. I used it and now have my first apprentice, a long time friend. I'd appreciate more examples of contracts, newsletters, and end of season surveys. I am amazed at how much you guys DO! How do you DO it Dory and Art? Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 19:04:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03376 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15685; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:02:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15589 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:01:24 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dYTTa26763 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:00:06 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:00:06 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Contract, program, and survey examples Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 363 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 In a message dated 3/24/99 4:04:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, rfarm@jps.net writes: << How do you DO it Dory and Art? >> Mostly I let my housework slide into a deep dark pit. I set up a chemical toilet outside so there's no excuse for anybody to see the inside of the house. Of course, the barn is spotless. So nobody guesses. What's your secret, Art? Dori From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 20:08:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17307 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20386; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:06:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20322 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 19:05:26 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dMOWa03976 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:00:30 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:00:30 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Contract, program, and survey examples Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 523 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 << What's your secret, Art? >> A beautiful wife, passion for co-creation and a type A personality. Our house looks like crap too. Clutter, fading exterior paint, dated interior design and a leaky roof keep us happy to be outside. I've never been with a dying person who said, "Damn, I wish I kept a cleaner house." But I've heard so much other remorseful advice I'd be a fool to ignore it. Besides, the dust of my ancestors resides in the corners of my house and my compost piles. Blessed are the ancestors....Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 21:58:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11036 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26839; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:56:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from web611.mail.yahoo.com (web611.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.178]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA26750 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:55:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990325025540.4095.rocketmail@web611.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [128.11.68.179] by web611.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:55:40 PST Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 18:55:40 -0800 (PST) From: jared volpe To: CSA list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 3189 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 I find myself in an interesting predicament. I am much more than an apprentice, but less than an independent farm manager. More like a CSA manager / Apprentice Coordinator / Co-Manager that works with a team of managers. It is not that I cant run a farm by my lonesome, but I wont do it. I dont want to. I want community. More importantly, it is getting late to join the 1999 growing season. I am deeply committed to sustainability and sustainable agriculture in particular. It is for this reason that I have directed my energy to observing the environment and how we exist in it. As Sandra Faber, a scientist at UC Santa Cruz, puts it, all our telescopes looking billions of light years into space have not found one thing to compare in beauty, complexity or wonder to our own planet Earth. My goal is to help guide our moral compass, providing us with a long term strategy for successfully and sustainably existing here. I have excellent research and organizational skills and am longing for a stage to use them along with my commitment to sustainable agriculture and my agricultural skills. I am very personable and I want to take my experiences ever further, into a realm where I am part of a team of growers, activists, and organizers that run a CSA and education group. I dont feel that I am currently using my skills to the best of my ability in terms of education and the distribution of information sustainable, etc. Last year I frequented the Catskill Mountains of New York, where I worked as the Production Grower and Assistant Horticulture Therapist at Green Chimneys Childrens Services, a residential treatment facility for emotionally disturbed youth. I was hired as grower at Boni-Bel Farm after one quarter of the season passed me by. The management was in a bind because the previous grower left on short notice, with most of her volunteers. I happened to be in the right place. There were four acres under transitional organic production, whose mission was to supply produce and vocational experience for 120 students and any of the 200 staff at the facility. I feel that Green Chimneys started the program to boast an organic farm. I was the fifth grower in the farms young five year life, an unsustainable pattern. Unfortunately I wasnt given a chance or much support and was working alone for most of the season, except for occasional volunteers and classes. Previously I attended graduate school in NYC as a non-matriculated student studying the environmental problems of urban and metropolitan coasts and I did two apprenticeships and worked on local farms. I am very flexible and therefore open to all opportunities that may arise. If you are looking for such an individual or know someone who is please pass on my info or contact me directly. I am glad to furnish a resume and references. Also, I am looking for other sites where I may post this on the net. Thanks for letting me ramble. Jared William Volpe nuarez@yahoo.com e-mail happens to be the best way to reach me 516-756-0037 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 24 22:02:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12121 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 22:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27469; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:00:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27109 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 20:59:43 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dEOCa13701 for ; Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:48:05 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <4482f8c9.36f9a3e5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 21:48:05 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: The housekeeping of world-savers (was Contract, program, and survey examples Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1765 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 I _do_ sweep, mop, and vacuum often enough to keep my house pets clear of fleas and my asthmatic cat (and self) breathing reasonably well without resorting to rescue inhalers too terribly often. But today I had to pay $8 for a duplicate driver's license because my original ended up in one of those sudden "CLUTTER - PUT ME AWAY" boxes from those days when the @(^@^( real estate agent wouldn't give me the 48 hours' notice I'd contracted for, and called me that day with "a really hot prospect". Swearing all the way, there's nothing I can do but swoosh the clutter into boxes and stack them in a spare room. In six months that man never got the message. The problem with a big 1878 13-room farmhouse lacking housemates is that there are too darn many spare rooms, too much room for those boxes. Someplace there's a box or two full of dirty dishes still unwashed. Better find that one before the hot weather arrives! And I really have to find my buck's registration papers before this year's daughters have babies and the new owners want to register them. I saw them not too long ago, but Cthulhu only knows where they've gotten off to. I thought they were in the file. Oopsie. Like the deed and title, that's a piece of paper that probably ought to live in a bank deposit box. There are now about a dozen CPMA boxes left -- I've unpacked more than 20 of the little stinkers in the past four weeks. And I didn't renew with that agent. If the place goes back on the market, my 48-hour request will be honored or they'll be sorry. And now y'all know why I offer a good chunk off the rent to anybody who's willing to help me keep the house clean. I'd rather be playing in the garden! Dori "She Who Must Be Obeyed" Green by real estate agents, anyway From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 25 08:25:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA12089 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20112; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:21:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from ic4.ithaca.edu (ic4.ithaca.edu [147.129.1.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20048 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 07:20:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from ithaca.edu (ic069163.ithaca.edu [147.129.69.163]) by ic4.ithaca.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #30132) with ESMTP id <01J98O6WAW10000A7L@ic4.ithaca.edu> for csa-L@prairienet.org; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:20:16 EST Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 08:22:47 -0500 From: Debbie Teeter Subject: Thanks for the laugh To: csa-L@prairienet.org Message-id: <36FA38A7.A5574B46@ithaca.edu> Organization: Ithaca College MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT References: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 979 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 Dori & Art - I'll be laughing the rest of the day about your responses - someone once told me "all farm houses look this way" in response to a mortified "sorry the house is such a wreck" when someone surprised me inside. Great idea about the toilet, Dori - that's one I can never quite get around - "uh, the bathroom? uh, sure... through the kitchen and past the laundry room (use your imagination)". Debbie SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > << What's your secret, Art? >> > > A beautiful wife, passion for co-creation and a type A personality. Our house > looks like crap too. Clutter, fading exterior paint, dated interior design > and a leaky roof keep us happy to be outside. I've never been with a dying > person who said, "Damn, I wish I kept a cleaner house." But I've heard so > much other remorseful advice I'd be a fool to ignore it. Besides, the dust of > my ancestors resides in the corners of my house and my compost piles. Blessed > are the ancestors....Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 25 11:36:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27101 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA04328; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:31:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04258 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:31:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA01163; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 10:30:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from bsg-ma1-194.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.194) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001133; Thu Mar 25 10:30:28 1999 Message-ID: <004701be76dc$8da78000$c2fa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Debbie Teeter" , Subject: Re: Thanks for the laugh Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:28:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1324 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Debbie wrote: Dori & Art - I'll be laughing the rest of the day about your responses - someone once told me "all farm houses look this way" in response to a mortified "sorry the house is such a wreck" when someone surprised me inside. Great idea about the toilet, Dori - that's one I can never quite get around - "uh, the bathroom? uh, sure... through the kitchen and past the laundry room (use your imagination)". Debbie I join you in laughing. I have never been neat, I genuinely don't understand how anyone "naturally" keeps their house neat. I live in a continous cycle of trashed binge clean trashed binge clean.........LOL about "uh, the bathroom" you have to walk through the kitchen to get to it ah! Our farm was put in a Massachusetts directory and listed a bit wrong. I told her the only thing we offer is tours by appointment (time to clean). I didn't notice but it listed us a farm stand, public bathroom etc. Two ladies showed up from the Boston area they wanted to paint, which I thought was cool and said ok, but they both had to go to the bathroom. Well the bathroom was recently remodeled so it looks ok, but the kitchen. I was cleaning it so it wasn't as bad a usual in fact I thought the vacum cleaner spralled out across the floor was a nice touch. Don't even mention springtime mud! Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Mar 25 12:55:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16641 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11255; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:53:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11159 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 11:52:20 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dFPPa18039 for ; Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:36:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <685fee1b.36fa7430@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1999 12:36:48 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Thanks for the laugh Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1980 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 In a message dated 3/25/99 11:32:31 AM Eastern Standard Time, guldann@ix.netcom.com writes: << Don't even mention springtime mud! >> What mud? My barn and farm and gardens are spotless all of the time, mud isn't allowed, all of those city folk who show up to dance through the fields in their high heels and sandals are perfectly enthralled with the pristeen and sanitary conditions here. There, I can lie just like a politician. Reality: BIG sign next to the parking area: This is an organic farm. Watch where you step. Hint for what it's worth: A few fork-fulls of hay and other stuff from the barn does a good job of slip- proofing a slick clay path. Spread about 6" thick on the front lawn for a couple of weeks right at spring thaw time it also does a great job of killing grass so you can plant more edible flowers. (Hey, if you can find a restaurant nearby and can deliver daily, $1 an ounce is a price they'll often jump at. Really a good item if you've got children looking for something to do -- four-year-olds have this penchant for picking flowers without the stems, so many visitors toddle up to me with big handfuls and big smiles of stem-less tulips every year. Catch 'em being good, steer them toward the pansy bed.) Dori's freebie marketing tip for the day. Not just talking through my hat here -- a 10x10' bed of pansies cost me about $100 to set up from transplants, about another $100 for paid helpers to help dig the bed and plant the flowers when my knee threw a fit. Sales to just one restaurant netted (not grossed) more than $600 after subtracting those expenses. Believe me, those babies were carefully mulched for the winter. Speaking of which, it's time to rake off the mulch tomorrow. I bought a lot of pansy seed this year, and will be growing a goodly number of them in raised trays so I can harvest more easily. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Mar 26 07:57:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09276 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA13326; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:56:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13241 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:55:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from busson (akr-romp-56-46.raex.com [204.42.56.46]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20674 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:56:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000101be7787$a6c57000$2e382acc@busson> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Dragonfly Farm Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:53:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1056 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 Hello all, I have been lurking for a little while and wanted to introduce myself. My name is Carol and we are certified organic for the 5th year now. This is our first year to try a CSA. We have wholesaled most stuff to a couple of local health food stores, and last year successfully tried a near by farmers market. I have a lot of reservations about CSAs but hope it may work out for us. I was encouraged that there was even one other person who is uncomfortable directing folks through the chaos to the bathroom. And I was shocked to learn that maybe we are in competition for "Mud Capital of the World", I was certain we were the only ones! Wondering how all of you found your original customers for your first CSA year. It is unlikely to be the folks in our own neighborhood as they are mostly gardening themselves. I have a letter printed up but I am hung up on distribution of it. Has anyone had success with small weekly newpapers? I know it is getting late in the season. Glad to have connected with this group, Carol Northeast Ohio From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Mar 26 08:24:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15087 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 08:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14733; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:23:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.bwn.net (bwnmail.bwn.net [209.54.96.220]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA14678 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:23:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from bwn.net [209.141.216.138] by mail.bwn.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.07) id AA784180202; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:24:08 MST Message-ID: <36FB8828.7F14D709@bwn.net> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 06:14:17 -0700 From: Susan Oberle Organization: Oberle Botanical X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA list Subject: New, too Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1495 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 Hi, Thought I'd introduce myself. I found this list awhile back & have also been lurking until I saw the mud & messy house posts! Here I thought I was the only one. The seasonal mess has begun! We're in N. Colorado & have about 2 acres. Our operation is kind of a hybrid CSA/ Delivery service. The land we are on is rented & the owner lives in an adjacent house so it's not appropriate for us to have lots of people on the property. We sell punch cards at 3 levels (individual, couple, family) & keep a weekly telephone message as to what's available that week. If a member is interested, they leave a message & get a delivery. Members subscribe in Feb/March (they get a discount for subscribing in Feb - the season of almost no cash flow) & can also use their punches for plants & Christmas wreaths. This seems to be working pretty well. I made up a brochure & posted them around town; we reached our limit w/in a month. We're not certified organic but follow organic practice for the most part. Our two big no no's are not always buying organic seed & using a slow release fertilizer in the GH. To date, I'm doing this more than full time & my husband still has a regular job & this one as well. Glad to be here & able to learn & share Sue -- ==================================================== Sue Oberle Oberle Botanical 832 Timber Lane Fort Collins, CO 80521 voice:(970) 493-5672 fax: (970) 493-3358 mailto:soberle@bwn.net ==================================================== From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Mar 26 10:28:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17219 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23872; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:26:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23648 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:24:55 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dAINa17110 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:22:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <73f6b372.36fba623@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:22:11 EST To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Dragonfly Farm Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1225 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 Dear Carol, As the "computer geek" for a 185 member CSA that is going into it's 4th year, perhaps I can help. We advertised in local weekly papers. Some co-ops were amenable to us leaving our brochures. We started with a mailing base of people who had belonged to a CSA that stopped due to exhaustion on the part of the people running it..... I would also suggest places using "cheap shot" demographics. Seventh Day Adventists are vegetarian and may be interested Unitarian Universalists are often interested in social issues..... You get the picture, and yes for any of you who feel slighted or offended, I apologize. I'm offering suggestions to get you started. Our finding after doing all kinds of things to advertise is that word of mouth is best. In the newsletter advertising our two festivals ( one mid summer and one in the fall) I include a "coupon" good for a free sample share.We encourage members to bring guests and let the guests use the coupon to take home a bag of fresh veggies. We can only do that because the farmer has a 400 acre organic farm and the CSA is only 10-15% of his business. He DOES grow some stuff for us, but there's always extra. Hope that helps Sue Tannehill for Porter Farms CSA Elba, NY From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Mar 26 10:56:48 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24946 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26315; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from tracker.excite.com (tracker-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.217]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA26258 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:54:41 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from digger.excite.com ([199.172.152.82]) by tracker.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990326155407.TVWM18393.tracker@digger.excite.com> for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:54:07 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Dragonfly Farm Message-Id: <922463650.7051.4@excite.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 07:54:10 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.180 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1773 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 Carol, We are in our second season and have gotten the word out thru a few avenues. We have a letter that explains who, what and where we are and how much that I either send out to people (more on that) or post at the local health food stores/co-op. Actually the letter is only sent out now and a shorter flyer with rip off tabs with phone #/email on is posted at the above mentioned places. Word of mouth is good. You could try writing up a news realease and sending it out to all media. I have not doen this yet but have heard from others that it works well. Have a festival open to the public to promote your farm and the CSA (invite media to this). Develop a mailing list. At your market put out a legal pad with a header that says something about the CSA and how to get more info, folks will write down names and address all day for you. If you belong to OEFFA (I notice you too are from Ohio) get a hold of the member directory and sent a flier to everyone in your area. If you pay bills thru the mail with local companies enclose a flier with payment. Leave fiers at the bank and post office and anyplace else with a public bulletin board. find any cooking schools/classes and leave fliers with those people to pass out to students (cooks will actually know what to do with this food too!). And of course word of mouth works wonders. Hey a website doesn't hurt either (if you have the time. Yeah right.....) ; ) Our members are either word of mouth or from a Co-op we belong too so far. I have had inqueries from the web site but they were out of our range. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Mar 26 11:39:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06239 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29701; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:38:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29607 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 10:38:03 -0600 (CST) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id dKVa014279 for ; Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:36:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62889158.36fbb788@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1999 11:36:24 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Recruiting Members Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Content-Length: 1417 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 In a message dated 3/26/99 7:56:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, busson@raex.com writes: << Wondering how all of you found your original customers for your first CSA year. >> To this day, my very best recruitment methods are presentations at local churches, synagogues, and mosques. These folks know something about cooperating, working in committees, and things having a value and purpose beyond the almighty dollar. Sometimes I'm invited to speak to an adult sunday school class, sometimes I get to be the speaker at a church supper. I take lots of photos and a baby goat if I have one available, a chicken if goats are too big to fit in the portable wire cage. One local church has an annual farm appreciation day, and I do the children's moment. Nobody will ever forget the chicken who gave a huge announcement that drowned out the organ, and laid an egg while she was waiting for her moment of glory! I presented it with great ceremony to the mother of the youngest child there that day. And of course, there's that Genesis connection to the whole CSA idea -- why are any of here in the first place? "To till God's garden and keep it." No wonder so many of us feel disconnected and unfulfilled these days. CSA offers a convenient and enjoyable way to us to meet our most basic spiritual destiny! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Mar 27 07:24:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25125 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA02279 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA28309; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:16:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28248 for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 06:15:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D6QETGQL; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:15:06 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 07:08:13 -0500 Subject: Ad- Goats for Sale Message-ID: <19990327.071026.-387521.1.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-6,8-13,15-16,18-26,30 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 I have several does for sale- 1) 2nd freshener Saanen- CAE Neg. 0n 9/2/98, from heavy milk lines, $150 1) 3rd freshener Saanen- CAE neg. on 9/2/98, dam of above doe, gives in the neighborhood of 16lbs. $250 1) 6th freshening Fr. Alpine, CAE neg. on 9/2/98, gives in the neighborhood of 14-16 lbs. $175 2) ObieXAlpine dry yearlings, kids of above doe, $85- very pretty 1) ObieXAlpine kid, this year's kid from above doe, $85-dramatic markings 1) 1st freshener Sannen, due in May, doe kid retained. Dam is the 3rd freshener above. $150 I will give a 10% discount if you get three or more of them together. Write for pedigrees. Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 02:16:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA07636 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA00046 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 02:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA09608; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:09:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (bnet1.nwnetwork.net [207.138.224.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA09521 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 01:06:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.138.224.143] (unverified [207.138.224.143]) by bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.6) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 27 Mar 1999 22:57:06 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Salad greens Date: Sat, 27 Mar 99 23:06:57 -0800 x-sender: sampsons@pop.bainbridgeisland.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Devon To: "csa-l@prairienet.org" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 I represent the seemingly non-existent agriculturally bound youth, in tenth grade and taking a self guided Organic Farming class working towards an eventual career in CSA based agriculture and/or research in this field. I am growing produce on a very small scale ( < 5000 sq feet) near Seattle for the local farmers market. I have planted an array of salad greens and am planning to sell onions, basil, garlic, and squash so far. Are there any suggestions as to what types of lettuce or other greens (and eatable flowers, etc) to grow for this market? What other crops and varieties have been successful and high value? Thanks for the input, Devon Sampson From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 07:20:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09618 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA00155 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA14237; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:12:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA14191 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:12:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA20488; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 06:11:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from bsg-ma1-13.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.13) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020478; Sun Mar 28 06:10:48 1999 Message-ID: <006101be7913$bf7c81a0$0df86ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "carol busson" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: Dragonfly Farm Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:08:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 >Hi Carol, Welcome. I have to laugh we pull two lurkers out because of poor housekeeping! Ah but you should see the garden. I'll answer your question as best I can and I have one for you. We had 9 members last year. 1 was someone our business partner knows, 4 were people I know, 2 were friends of one of my people, and 2 just "drove" by: we have cattle and 3 horses (2 at the time), she noticed the horses and stopped one day to ask well she got the long explaination and the next day she and her friend each bought a membership her friend has been my best member. This year I don't know, I only have two deposit checks so far (from new people) of the above I would not be surprised if 3 dropped out due to their "difficulty" getting here to pick up bear in mind I am not out in the boonies per say not really much farther than their grocery store. I paid for one ad last year not one call. I put flyers in a friends store not one call. Direct contact is were our members came from. Our goal is 15-20 members this year finger crossed. My question for you: We think a bit of wholesale is some thing we might be interested in how did you go about finding stores. And if I may be so bold to ask what do you charge wholesale? I haven't a clue what is a fair price for wholesale organic veggies (I know some store or restaraunts won't care that they are organic). Beth >I have been lurking for a little while and wanted to introduce myself. My >name is Carol and we are certified organic for the 5th year now. This is >our first year to try a CSA. We have wholesaled most stuff to a couple of >local health food stores, and last year successfully tried a near by farmers >market. I have a lot of reservations about CSAs but hope it may work out >for us. > >I was encouraged that there was even one other person who is uncomfortable >directing folks through the chaos to the bathroom. And I was shocked to >learn that maybe we are in competition for "Mud Capital of the World", I was >certain we were the only ones! > >Wondering how all of you found your original customers for your first CSA >year. It is unlikely to be the folks in our own neighborhood as they are >mostly gardening themselves. I have a letter printed up but I am hung up on >distribution of it. Has anyone had success with small weekly newpapers? I >know it is getting late in the season. > >Glad to have connected with this group, > >Carol >Northeast Ohio > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 08:10:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09885 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10929 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA15609; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:03:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15568 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:02:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D6S3W9X4; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:02:39 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 07:56:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Ad- Goats for Sale Message-ID: <19990328.075804.-348741.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6-12 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 Marv H., I cannot answer your question because juno won't recognize the email address set up on your end. Transportation may be the sticking place and I can recommend breeders up where you are. Let me know....Betsy Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 09:17:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10415 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25242 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16937; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:09:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16881 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 08:09:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from busson (akr-romp-56-57.raex.com [204.42.56.57]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05166 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:10:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000101be7924$54a47480$39382acc@busson> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Dan - - wholesaleing Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:07:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 Hello; We are lucky to have a large natural foods store about 37 miles away with a good produce department and a produce manager who is committed to buying local produce. You are right that most folks in "straight" grocery stores are not even a little bit interested in organic produce. Some even believe it is dangerous, having more likelyhood of e-coli, ect. We work out a price loosely based on what the big wholesalers on the west coast are charging, or the big places in Chicago. The produce manager we work with is very generous in his pricing. We get roughly one half what the retail is on most stuff. From my experience the whole thing depends on personalities and finding folks you can have a good working relationship with. Some big chain stores don't have the luxury of buying for their own store, a head buyer at a main store does it all and then just sends them a shippment. A lot of farmers around here who have access to a fax machine fax the produce managers a list of what they will have that week on Monday morning really early. I don't know if it is just a local custom but most of the produce gets ordered Monday -Tuesday. Call up all the produce managers and introduce yourself and ask if you can stop by and meet them now while the season isn't underway quite for them, ask what they most likely want to buy local. Produce managers are really nice folks almost always. Still, the reason we want to turn to CSA is the fact that the more stuff you can retail the better off you are, produce managers have been the first to tell us they think we would be better off not selling to them but selling direct to the consumer. so we are trying to work out some mix that allows us to keep doing vegetables . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 11:52:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11942 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26336 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA22191; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:45:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA22125 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:44:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903281644.KAA22125@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 91873707; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:44:31 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "Devon" , Subject: Re: Salad greens Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:32:33 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 My favorite lettuces are include the Batavian types (some catalogues call them summercrisp). Sierra Batavian is a nice, pretty (red tinge over green, thick romaine-like leaves and great flavor. Grows in the cool of spring or heat of summer. New Red Fire is a beautiful red fast growing lettuce that can also take the heat. Cracoviensis is a little known but great early lettuce with nice red/green color combos. I have seen the others in Johnny's and elsewhere, but this one only in FEDCO. Grow some "mesclun" mix for the market...we grow, among others, mizuna, tatsoi, various mustards and arugula on about a two week rotation: cut two to four times over 1 1/2 to two weeks) and dig under, start cutting the next bed. Our edible flower beds are fairly ordinary, but we like the "gem" type marigolds for nice color (though the foliage is tastier than the flower) and most herbs. Especially oregano and sage. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Devon > To: csa-l@prairienet.org > Subject: Salad greens > Date: Sunday, March 28, 1999 2:06 AM > > I represent the seemingly non-existent agriculturally bound youth, in > tenth grade and taking a self guided Organic Farming class working > towards an eventual career in CSA based agriculture and/or research in > this field. I am growing produce on a very small scale ( < 5000 sq feet) > near Seattle for the local farmers market. I have planted an array of > salad greens and am planning to sell onions, basil, garlic, and squash so > far. Are there any suggestions as to what types of lettuce or other > greens (and eatable flowers, etc) to grow for this market? What other > crops and varieties have been successful and high value? > > Thanks for the input, > > Devon Sampson > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 12:52:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12712 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09572 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24357; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:44:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24310 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:44:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.94.53.61] (b1-53-61.whidbey.com [204.94.53.61]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26005; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:41:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 09:41:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Devon , From: Petersons Family Subject: Re: Young Farmers Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 Cool! I'd been hoping there were some other young'uns out there. I'm 16 and I'll be running most of my family's CSA this summer on Whidbey Island. Considering that the average age of a farmer in America is around 60, I often feel very isolated. The next-youngest serious organic farmer I know of on the Island is 30-something. I'm attending Western Washington University right now and student-teaching Applied Human Ecology: Sustainable Systems, a class which works in Western's organic Outback Farm. It's great to be in contact with other young people who are interested in sustainable food production; however, Western's garden is still pretty small (it's probably not even as large as your plot), underfunded, and disorganized. This spring I'm hoping to get down to Evergreen State College's organic garden as a field trip for my class and see how they're doing. When I was in tenth grade I did an independent study/vocational credit at my parent's farm on organic gardening; some time I'm hoping to get a summer internship program set up with my old high school so that other kids can have this opportunity. I'd like to stay in contact with you -- my school email address is n9842334@cc.wwu.edu I'll be there until mid-June, then I'm back on the farm on Whidbey. As far as edible flowers go, we've put borage, calendula, violas, nasturtiums, and shungiku flowers in our salad mix at some point or another, but right now our favorites are nasturtiums and violas (little violets). These both grow vigorously and self-seed. The others take more time-- borage flowers are small and their stems are fuzzy/prickly, and the centers of calendulas and shungiku flowers aren't as tasty as the petals. Radicchio was supposed to be the big fad last year, but ours wasn't widely popular at our farmer's market. We often have a lot of success with growing weird varieties of fairly traditional crops like carrots, beets and beans-- we grow golden beets, chioggia beets (these have red and white concentric rings on the inside), purple bush and yellow romano beans, and daikon radishes. Some of our favorite salad greens are Red Russian kale, tat soi, lolla rosa lettuce, and bull's blood beet greens. --Anna Petersons Molly's Island Garden >I represent the seemingly non-existent agriculturally bound youth, in >tenth grade and taking a self guided Organic Farming class working >towards an eventual career in CSA based agriculture and/or research in >this field. I am growing produce on a very small scale ( < 5000 sq feet) >near Seattle for the local farmers market. I have planted an array of >salad greens and am planning to sell onions, basil, garlic, and squash so >far. Are there any suggestions as to what types of lettuce or other >greens (and eatable flowers, etc) to grow for this market? What other >crops and varieties have been successful and high value? > >Thanks for the input, > >Devon Sampson From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 14:26:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14250 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27235 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29696; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:19:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (bnet1.nwnetwork.net [207.138.224.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29634 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:19:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.138.224.105] (unverified [207.138.224.105]) by bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.6) with SMTP id for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:09:42 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: re: salad greens Date: Sun, 28 Mar 99 11:19:35 -0800 x-sender: sampsons@pop.bainbridgeisland.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Devon To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 A lot of people replied directly to me, not on the list, so this is a digest of what I recieved: from W. Bart Hunter: >Hi Devon, > >I'm sure you will get all sorts of advice from your post. However, I feel >the most important step you can take is research in your own local market. >See what sells well in your local super market and farmers market. These >"salad greens" should be your base line of what to grow--your cash crop >which supports your operation. Once established you can try additional >different varieties to see if they sell--if they don't, you haven't lost >that much. If you can find a niche market or crop you will be way ahead of >the game. For example around here spring lamb for the Greeks at Easter was >a big market. On the other hand when I managed a vineyard for seven years we >could never find a good market for table grapes--people were to use to the >large California grapes. Perhaps if I'd continued I would have succeeded, >but it was time to leave. from Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm: >My favorite lettuces are include the Batavian types (some catalogues call >them summercrisp). Sierra Batavian is a nice, pretty (red tinge over green, >thick romaine-like leaves and great flavor. Grows in the cool of spring or >heat of summer. New Red Fire is a beautiful red fast growing lettuce that >can also take the heat. Cracoviensis is a little known but great early >lettuce with nice red/green color combos. I have seen the others in >Johnny's and elsewhere, but this one only in FEDCO. Grow some "mesclun" mix >for the market...we grow, among others, mizuna, tatsoi, various mustards >and arugula on about a two week rotation: cut two to four times over 1 1/2 >to two weeks) and dig under, start cutting the next bed. > >Our edible flower beds are fairly ordinary, but we like the "gem" type >marigolds for nice color (though the foliage is tastier than the flower) >and most herbs. Especially oregano and sage. from Anna Petersons: > As far as edible flowers go, we've put borage, calendula, violas, >nasturtiums, and shungiku flowers in our salad mix at some point or >another, but right now our favorites are nasturtiums and violas (little >violets). These both grow vigorously and self-seed. The others take more >time-- borage flowers are small and their stems are fuzzy/prickly, and the >centers of calendulas and shungiku flowers aren't as tasty as the petals. > Radicchio was supposed to be the big fad last year, but ours wasn't >widely popular at our farmer's market. We often have a lot of success with >growing weird varieties of fairly traditional crops like carrots, beets and >beans-- we grow golden beets, chioggia beets (these have red and white >concentric rings on the inside), purple bush and yellow romano beans, and >daikon radishes. Some of our favorite salad greens are Red Russian kale, >tat soi, lolla rosa lettuce, and bull's blood beet greens. > > --Anna Petersons > Molly's Island Garden thanks for the advice Devon Sampson From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Mar 28 16:13:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15266 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17183 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA04879; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:05:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from jake.excite.com (jake-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.221]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04791 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 15:05:10 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from pounce.excite.com ([199.172.152.99]) by jake.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990328210436.DBPA17086.jake@pounce.excite.com> for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:04:36 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Work Days Message-Id: <922655076.24618.89@excite.com> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:04:36 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.197 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 We are having our first work day next Saturday. We Plan to put in a couple hundred strawberry plants and maybe potatoes (this depends on both getting to the farm before the workers do-both ordered and due the first) and some lettuce transplants. The real reason for the day is to get the folks who have promised to work out here to get familiar with the farm and begin to learn where things are. If we get some work done too that will be great. So far all the members I have asked seem really into working long hours in the fields (Wait til the reality pushes those romantic notions outta their heads). At this point we are setting our oporation up so if folks want to help we will assist them but we are schedualling nothing that is absolutely essential. At this point we are right on schedual according to the very ambitious calander I laid out in january (wow, that seems so far away now). We have the tilling begun, First peas and radish are in the ground, the first head lettuce should be transplanted tomorrow (Mon) same with the cabbages. We have laid down the first of the IRT mulch (a first for us using this stuff) and the week before all this activity took place we were busy getting compost screened and onto the beds that need it this year (and we will continue this for several more weeks) I anm excited about the coming season, I think it'll be a good one. It's the year of the Rabbit after all. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 29 07:25:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27025 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA10763 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA13754; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:17:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA13707 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:17:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA27963 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:16:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from bsg-ma1-155.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.155) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027941; Mon Mar 29 06:16:11 1999 Message-ID: <00cd01be79dd$b0ae5160$0df86ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" Cc: "CSA list" Subject: Wholesale prices Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:14:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 Thanks people this is a good ball park. The Massachusetts Dept of Ag. has a web page, I actually rather like it. I genuinely believe this dept is serious about ag. (just get the rest of the branches of gov. to notice). Anyway they list wholesales prices by the week I guess. Does anyone understand how to read it. Its just a bunch of numbers. I assume it lists a quantity than a price. But it not the same quantity for each veg. I think it would be helpful to understand it in that this is where buyers are getting their conventional veg. Thank you list Beth -----Original Message----- From: Michelle Y. Crawford To: Dan Hook Cc: carol busson ; CSA list Date: Monday, March 29, 1999 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Dragonfly Farm > >About wholesale pricing...here in the NW on this particular island, you >get half of what the store will sell it for... > >Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, >27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 > > > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 29 10:11:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29668 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21097 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23173; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:03:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23032 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:02:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.94.52.188] (b5-52-188.whidbey.com [204.94.52.188]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15570 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:00:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:00:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: wholesale prices Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 On this island in the Pacific Northwest (Whidbey), I get two-thirds of the retail price for most of my produce. I have worked with the same produce manager for many years. He has been successful in expanding his organic selections, even though the store is a small grocery in a small town. This kind manager is also always willing to work with local growers, and has helped me a lot with presentation and pricing. I started with salad greens in an unmarked bag. He pointed out that my new competitor, with a label, was selling more even though the retail price was identical. I got labels. He also let slip that she had negotiated a higher wholesale price. I raised mine to match. I give him free samples to try out sometimes - like a new lettuce or bunch green. He is able to feature my produce in advertisements at least once each summer. It does help to know the produce people. In the larger stores here, I have less success in marketing anything other than high priced (wholesale at $7/#), cellophane bagged, labeled salad greens. The invasion of mass produced bagged greens has made it harder to market mine, but they are still the mainstay of my wholesaleing. I try to be prepared for the demise of this fad. Years ago, I made a good seasonal income with quality grapevine wreaths sold directly to wholesale florists who were even happy to send a truck out to pick them up. That market is gone - imports and wreaths held together with wires pushed me out. I've enjoyed the housekeeping threads. Here we keep the floor in a condition that you could eat off of (literally - there's lots of dropped chopped food down there). The last time we swept the main part of the house, John was startled by the amount of good soil collected in corners. We were tempted to throw in a handful of seeds and stand back. --Molly Petersons Molly's Island Garden From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 29 10:36:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00134 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27610 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25488; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:28:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25433 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:28:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA19190; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:27:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from bsg-ma1-155.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.155) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019070; Mon Mar 29 09:26:56 1999 Message-ID: <014b01be79f8$579b5300$0df86ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "Petersons Family" Subject: Re: wholesale prices Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:25:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 Dear Molly, Thank-you for the advice. LOL just let so much dirt (I am on my way) accumulate on the kitchen floor and plant seeds! I'll just install florencent lights I've already got water...........I'll get tour groups this could be good! Beth >advertisements at least once each summer. It does help to know the produce >people. In the larger stores here, I have less success in marketing >anything other than high priced (wholesale at $7/#), cellophane bagged, >labeled salad greens. The invasion of mass produced bagged greens has made >it harder to market mine, but they are still the mainstay of my >wholesaleing. I try to be prepared for the demise of this fad. Years ago, >I made a good seasonal income with quality grapevine wreaths sold directly >to wholesale florists who were even happy to send a truck out to pick them >up. That market is gone - imports and wreaths held together with wires >pushed me out. >I've enjoyed the housekeeping threads. Here we keep the floor in a >condition that you could eat off of (literally - there's lots of dropped >chopped food down there). The last time we swept the main part of the >house, John was startled by the amount of good soil collected in corners. >We were tempted to throw in a handful of seeds and stand back. > --Molly Petersons > Molly's Island Garden > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 29 15:00:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08073 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02506 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA20549; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:51:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (bnet1.nwnetwork.net [207.138.224.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20433 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:50:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.138.224.135] (unverified [207.138.224.135]) by bnet1.bainbridgenet.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.6) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:41:14 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: Re: Salad greens Date: Mon, 29 Mar 99 11:51:12 -0800 x-sender: sampsons@pop.bainbridgeisland.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Devon To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 ---------------- Begin Forwarded Message ---------------- Date: 03/29 5:21 AM Received: 03/29 7:07 AM From: Pat Elazar, Pat_Elazar@cwb.ca To: Devon, dsampson@bigfoot.com Hi Devon. I like your enterprise & spirit & want to offer my moral support. I can't add alot to what Bart, Jim/Jo, Ann have said other than to maybe tweak your product line a bit: I like your commitment to leafy greens- those are generally acceptable, not 'weird' & keep their value even in harvest glut times. Any herbs or flowers (edible or other) are great. The onions are lo-profit items you might limit or try to incorporate as part of salad mixes? You mentioned squashes but not what kind. Those usually take up enormous amounts of room & are generally lo-profit items. Otoh, if you have the space, specialty squashes or pumpkins could be part of your marketing plan. Squash flowers are edible btw and look spectacular in a mesclun mix (special father's day mix, 4th of July mix etc...) You didn't mention beans? They are also widely acceptable, perform well during the hotter months & keep their value during harvest glut. While I'm ranting: People like convenience so package basil, flat-leaf-parsley & garlic together with a recipe for pesto (just add olive oil, pine-nuts, salt & parmesan to taste). That way you are selling knowledge as well as food. Good luck, Pat Devon on 03/28/99 01:06:57 AM To: "csa-l@prairienet.org" cc: Subject: Salad greens I represent the seemingly non-existent agriculturally bound youth, in tenth grade and taking a self guided Organic Farming class working towards an eventual career in CSA based agriculture and/or research in this field. I am growing produce on a very small scale ( < 5000 sq feet) near Seattle for the local farmers market. I have planted an array of salad greens and am planning to sell onions, basil, garlic, and squash so far. Are there any suggestions as to what types of lettuce or other greens (and eatable flowers, etc) to grow for this market? What other crops and varieties have been successful and high value? Thanks for the input, Devon Sampson ----------------- End Forwarded Message ----------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Mar 29 17:11:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11584 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01519 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01770; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:02:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01477 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:00:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca (ppp13925.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.163.164]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA28691 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:03:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990329171048.0072d430@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:10:48 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Companion Planting Guide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 Barbara Scott - Are you out there? Barbara had given me a copy of "The Companion Planting Guide for Vegetable Gardens" chart by Gregory H. Willis. I am looking for where I might be able to find more copies. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 01:49:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA18334 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA08031 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA26086; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:37:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25979 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:36:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA10932; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:36:04 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:36:00 -0800 (PST) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Petersons Family cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: wholesale prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 I too am enjoying the housekeeping thread. There is a lot of soil wasted on the kitchen floor. I have also just had a time trying to share farm interns with another farm close by...they would provide the housing in the form of a 2 bedroom trailer, and I would find the interns and do the other farms starts, starting everything down to beets. I have had to terminate that share because the interns have been living with me and my children in our tiny house for a month, and the trailer is still not ready (though it has been on the property since last summer), no water, no toilet (even a composting one outdoors). It has been a real learning curve for me (again) to try and work things out like this. It is not only very messy here but we are not getting a lot of work done (except on the trailer), and on and on. Now the interns are NOT going to live in the trailer, and finally realizing that you can back out of a difficult situation, we worked here today. I think I have found another farm to share them with that has housing available and ready, they may be out of here in 3 days. As if there is not enough to do! I may never have interns again. Hoping some of you have made less mistakes (or different ones to pass on), Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 02:19:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA18564 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA13388 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA27390; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:12:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27332 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:11:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14091; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:11:37 -0800 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 23:11:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Devon cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Salad greens and Devon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 How does one package basil so that it does not rot or bruise and then rot? I would add to the generous advice given to you Devon, that stir fry mixes, with lots of bolting florets of Asian greens are very successful for me, and I add gai lohn brocolli, broc. raab, and scallions to it also. I am on Vashon Island in the PNW, and our growers assoc. is working with all the branches of the local schools, homeschoolers, and with the district (trying to get the horticulture program up and running after a 5 year absence, but as an organic farming program)... I would be interested in knowing what has been helpful to you in terms of education. I personally think internships are the way to learn though I wrote last expressing great frustration with that situation at this time for me and so far this year. I'd be interested in what has worked for you. Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 06:30:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA20409 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA06000 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA02959; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:17:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from hissy.excite.com (hissy-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.229]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02904 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 05:16:40 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by hissy.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990331111605.DQGB19621.hissy@flash.excite.com> for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:16:05 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Interns (was wholesale prices) Message-Id: <922878965.22613.102@excite.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:16:05 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.208 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 Michelle, Wow, what a time of year to be having this kind of problem. I'm glad the proiblem seems to be working itself out for you. Our farm does not do interns (yet) but I have some ideas about your situation. Number one, unless you live in the middle of no where and it would be very difficult to get to your farm, the intern does not have to live on the farm. Number two, You do not have to supply housing for these folks. From what I have been reading on the net-intern want ads-many of the potential interns do not expect housing, they also don't want to work more than 30 hours either (and they want a real farm exp too...). From a workshop I went to They said it is really up to the grower and intern to come up with a plan and each is different, much like the CSA's themselves. In other words don't give up on the intern idea-hey they will be a big help when you get all this BS cleared up and can concentrate on growing and you are doing an invaluable service in taking the time to teach these people to farm in a sustainable way so that they can carry on the skills and teach others. You just need to do more thinking on what you can provide the interns etc.. off season. I guess I'd also say do this on your own next time and not with another farm. Speaking of workers, we had a friend, who is now a new CSA member, show up at the farm asking to work in the fields with us, we said "sure" and he worked as hard as us for 4 hours straight (okay one 20 min break) and wants to come back. He did an excellent job too-followed our instructions to the letter. Maybe I'll find, for this year at least, members can be good workers (we lucked into a lot of exp folks). This is a huge change from last year - It was like pulling teeth to get a member out for any reason much less work, and the few that did work did a poor job and needed far too much supervision (we had one member who need constant supervision no matter how simple the job-he couldn't even pick up rocks out the field with out lots of instruction). This year all members want to work. I think I was correct in getting rid of almost the entire membership last year. I'm very excited about this season. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 12:50:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27511 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14287 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA25753; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:42:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from cubbie.excite.com (cubbie-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.216]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25653 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:41:52 -0600 (CST) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by cubbie.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990331174117.LMGW19608.cubbie@doby.excite.com> for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:41:17 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Interns Message-Id: <922902076.1589.302@excite.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:41:16 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.140 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 Okay, Here is a short list of URL's that often post intern ads OFMA http://web.iquest.net/ofma/ Organic trade Org. http://www.organicfood.com They have a good message board that has intern ads occasionally http://www.agrisurf.com is an excellent agricultural search engine. They have scads of organic links I hope this helps some. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris Ohio http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 21:25:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08344 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21347 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05335; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:17:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp1.jps.net (smtp1.jps.net [209.63.224.236]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05246 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:16:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (209-142-58-125.stk.jps.net [209.142.58.125]) by smtp1.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA12988 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:16:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <37026B10.421D2EC8@jps.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:36:05 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: How does one package basil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 My experience says you can successfully handle basil four ways * dry it and package it (longterm) * cut it and let it wilt in the fridge without plastic bag (a week or two tops) * freeze it (long term) * cut it and treat it like fresh flowers in a vase - in or out of the fridge (a week or three tops) The fact that it is wilted doesn't affect the flavor when added to pesto or salads and is the easiest of the three ways, so this is what I do - but I have customers who are not as lazy as me and chose one of the other methods. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Mar 31 23:44:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10880 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23560 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA12967; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:36:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12870 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:35:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.68.174 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:34:17 -0800 From: "Mary Manson" To: "Michelle Y. Crawford" , "Petersons Family" Cc: Subject: Re: wholesale prices Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:46:07 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <040011734040149CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 >there is not enough to do! I may never have interns again. Hoping some of >you have made less mistakes (or different ones to pass on), >Michelle Crawford That's a typical learning curve - they throw you a curve, and you learn. Now you're smarter than they are, because hopefully you won't get caught this way again .... but they will continue shirking until they run out of people, meanwhile building one hell of a reputation. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 3 10:09:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28672 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:09:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15115 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13045; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:01:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12995 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 09:00:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool038-max13.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.4.38]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13979 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 07:00:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990403070043.0082c850@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 07:00:43 -0800 To: CSA-L From: Fred Chambers Subject: OFF: Wheat... Hemp Re-birth In-Reply-To: <37050279.43BDFA5@digisys.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Here's more on the options for wheat farmers facing low prices. Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:50:58 -0800 Subject: Some farmers lobby for legal hemp Published Friday, April 2, 1999, in the Charlotte Observer ------------------------------------------------------------ Some farmers lobby for legal hemp Falling prices make option more attractive By CHRISTOPHER S. WREN New York Times BISMARCK, N.D. -- Dennis Carlson sold his first wheat, grown on a field borrowed from his parents, in 1975, when he was 14. He earned $4.51 a bushel and resolved to follow his father, grandfather and great-grandfather into farming. Nearly 24 years later, spring wheat is selling for $2.91 a bushel, and Carlson worries whether he can afford to plant next month. "We're going to get a low price," he said. "And if we get a bumper crop, it's going to get lower." Battered by sinking commodity prices and rising costs, Carlson and other wheat farmers are looking across the Canadian border at a crop they say could help save them -- if only it were legal. That crop is hemp, a non-intoxicating look-alike cousin of marijuana grown around the world for its fiber, seed and oil. But long identified with marijuana both by law enforcement and the counterculture, it is banned in the United States as part of the war on drugs. As farmers from Hawaii to North Dakota to Vermont lobby state legislatures to study hemp's potential and make it legal, they are opposed by federal officials unwilling to relax drug laws even symbolically, whether by endorsing marijuana's medical use, or approving a once-common crop, hemp. Until recently, the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy asserted that making hemp legal would send the wrong message, "especially to our youth at a time when adolescent drug use is rising." But in March its director, McCaffrey, indicated in an interview that his opposition was softening. "If people believe that hemp fiber can be sold in the marketplace for a profit, and aren't actually trying to normalize the growing of marijuana around America, to the extent you want to grow hemp fiber, we'd be glad to work with you," McCaffrey said. But as a profitable crop, he said, "I think it's going nowhere." But in North Dakota, where the Republican-controlled Legislature appears likely to enact laws promoting hemp, Carlson said: "We're all desperate. We're trying to find something that will change our outlook, and hemp is one of many crops." It does not help that hemp remains identified with the counterculture, its products -- from oils to clothing -- often sold in shops that sell rolling papers, pipes and other drug paraphernalia, its cause cheered on by marijuana advocates. "They are our worst enemies," said Gale Glenn, a tobacco grower in Winchester, Ky. "If marijuana didn't exist, hemp would be growing here on hundreds of thousands of acres." Legislation to revive hemp passed in Hawaii this month and has been introduced in legislatures in North Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Virginia, Vermont and Hawaii. The federal Controlled Substances Act says the government does not intend to prevent states from legislating in this area. But even with state approval, hemp growers would need permits from the Drug Enforcement Administration, which so far has resisted. "There's widespread bipartisan support for this becoming a crop in North Dakota," state Sen. Joel Heitkamp said. "The problem is at the federal level." State Rep. David Monson, a farmer, school superintendent and sponsor of the North Dakota legislation, said, "I think 99 percent of the people in my district, when you show them the bottom line, they're ready to go." After Canada made hemp legal a year ago, about 5,000 acres were planted with hemp, said Geof Kime, president of Hempline, a hemp growing and processing company in Delaware, Ontario. Monson recalled watching his neighbor across the border in Manitoba grow 23 acres of hemp that netted about $250 an acre. "When he came out with all those profits, we were really upset," Monson said. ----------------------------------------------------end FMChambers@csupomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus and local groups encouraging Cal Poly to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit and post at: http://www.csupomona.edu/~jmikeda/la401/cap/ (Clean Air Park Proposal) http://www.regen.org/bwecc.html (BWA's Energy Center Proposal) http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~muse/ (Multi-Use Development Strategy) http://www.rokcircle.com/bbs/ (The Wilderness Forum) http://www.thelyp.com/ewala (The Earth Water Air for Los Angeles site) http://www.ballona.org (Ballona Preservation Land Trust) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 5 13:41:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07110 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00095 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06789; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:32:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06596 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:30:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA06891 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:30:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2-45.ix.netcom.com(209.110.254.45) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006615; Mon Apr 5 12:28:48 1999 Message-ID: <005301be7f89$8c384e60$2dfe6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Ma. dept of food and ag URL Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 13:27:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 People have requested this address love to here what you think. http://www.massgrown.org/Default.htm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 6 18:18:56 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14727 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08276 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23990; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:10:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23869 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:08:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA22041; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-80.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.80) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022016; Tue Apr 6 17:05:19 1999 Message-ID: <009e01be8079$5ea01460$50fa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Dan Hook" , Subject: Alec Baldwin Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:03:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 That was a very interesting post. Did Oprah win? I always wondered how she even got into trouble in that "mad cow" and e-coli was talked about on every show. That sort of power in the food industry doesn't seem "healthy". Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 7 06:06:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA23242 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA12617 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA00736; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:58:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www.mebbs.com (www.mebbs.com [207.177.12.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA00693 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:57:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: by www.mebbs.com from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 07 Apr 1999 05:09:15 -0500 Received: from boblkbns.netins.net [207.177.12.34] by www.mebbs.com [207.177.12.3] (SLmail 3.2.3108) with SMTP id 70DC476CEC9711D28AC90020182AA861 for plus 1 more; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 05:08:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001401be80dc$89b8c260$220cb1cf@boblkbns.netins.net> From: "Ron Boyer" To: Cc: "Ron Boyer" Subject: media Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:48:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-SLUIDL: 61667C97-EC7F11D2-8AC90020-182AA861 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 This may not fit in with the thought process of this page but I think that the power of the media isn't healthy.I don't know exactly what Mr. Baldwin has said but I can guess and I would like to know if he is educated enough in what ever he is complaining about to know for a fact that it is true or is he just listening to certain peoples opinion for his information. Oprah did not loose in her lawsuit because it could not be proven that she destroyed the market of cattle that were in no way sick from what she was discussing (mad Cow). However she did not know what she was talking about and her guest had a quest to destroy the cattle industry even though he used faulty facts and logic. When media people us their name recognition to promote a cause that they really know nothing about I think it is more detrimental then any one (food industry if you will ) standing up to protect their product Ron Boyer www.blackbeans.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 7 07:47:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA24066 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28938 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA04057; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:39:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com ([208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03992 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:38:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([207.38.252.24]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 07:27:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990407043207.00a7d314@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:32:10 +0000 To: "Ron Boyer" , From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: media Cc: "Ron Boyer" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 Sorry about being off topic, but I couldn't help myself. Ron's comments about the media drew me from my cave. Alec Baldwin and Oprah are not members of the media. They are celebrities promoting their favorite causes. But the lines have been blurred and, sadly, people assume these celebrities are crusading like journalists in search of a fair and broad understanding of an issue. They have lost their bearings and are a million miles away from the standards of accuracy and fairness that define true journalism. Again, I'm sorry about being off topic. Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with plastic mulch? -- Jeff The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 04:48 AM 4/7/99 -0500, Ron Boyer wrote: >This may not fit in with the thought process of this page but I think that >the power of the media isn't healthy.I don't know exactly what Mr. Baldwin >has said but I can guess and I would like to know if he is educated enough >in what ever he is complaining about to know for a fact that it is true or >is he just listening to certain peoples opinion for his information. >Oprah did not loose in her lawsuit because it could not be proven that she >destroyed the market of cattle that were in no way sick from what she was >discussing (mad Cow). However she did not know what she was talking about >and her guest had a quest to destroy the cattle industry even though he used >faulty facts and logic. >When media people us their name recognition to promote a cause that they >really know nothing about I think it is more detrimental then any one (food >industry if you will ) standing up to protect their product >Ron Boyer >www.blackbeans.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 7 09:31:56 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25820 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18361 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09197; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:22:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09135 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:22:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.8.149.46] [209.8.149.45] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id ACE41CD03DC; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 09:25:56 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:22:03 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: nation article Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 I think people should read the nation issue before commenting. It was an interesting issue. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 7 10:06:55 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26395 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26632 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12189; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:58:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web606.mail.yahoo.com (web606.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.170]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12116 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:57:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990407135807.3157.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.211.18.129] by web606.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 06:58:07 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:58:07 -0700 (PDT) From: jared volpe Subject: Fwd: Re: nation article To: CSA list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 Oops, sorry Leigh. I am on a few newsgroups and on the others I can hit the reply button and my mail will go to the group, but for some reason with this one it goes to the sender. Anyway... --- jared volpe wrote: > Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:58:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: jared volpe > Subject: Re: nation article > To: Leigh Hauter > > > What Nation issue? Did anyone read the article > entitled, "The Green Machine", in April's Harper's? > Is Monsanto sowing the seeds of change, or > destruction? > > --- Leigh Hauter wrote: > > I think people should read the nation issue before > > commenting. It was an > > interesting issue. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 8 02:09:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA18325 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21290 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 02:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA26097; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:01:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA25740 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:00:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA08293; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:59:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:59:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Jeff Herr cc: Ron Boyer , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: media In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990407043207.00a7d314@mail.thestreet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 On the quack grass topic...hot compost or hot manure with black plastic over it works well against quack grass on Vashon Island, WA...it takes 2 months in warm weather, and around 4 in cool... I would like to say that we in Western WA are having the coldest wettest spring in 40 years (give or take) and we may all move south soon. Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Jeff Herr wrote: > Sorry about being off topic, but I couldn't help myself. Ron's comments about the media drew me from my cave. > > Alec Baldwin and Oprah are not members of the media. They are celebrities promoting their favorite causes. But the lines have been blurred and, sadly, people assume these celebrities are crusading like journalists in search of a fair and broad understanding of an issue. They have lost their bearings and are a million miles away from the standards of accuracy and fairness that define true journalism. > > Again, I'm sorry about being off topic. > > Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with plastic mulch? > > -- Jeff > > The Cabbage Ranch > Carnation, WA > > > > > At 04:48 AM 4/7/99 -0500, Ron Boyer wrote: > >This may not fit in with the thought process of this page but I think that > >the power of the media isn't healthy.I don't know exactly what Mr. Baldwin > >has said but I can guess and I would like to know if he is educated enough > >in what ever he is complaining about to know for a fact that it is true or > >is he just listening to certain peoples opinion for his information. > >Oprah did not loose in her lawsuit because it could not be proven that she > >destroyed the market of cattle that were in no way sick from what she was > >discussing (mad Cow). However she did not know what she was talking about > >and her guest had a quest to destroy the cattle industry even though he used > >faulty facts and logic. > >When media people us their name recognition to promote a cause that they > >really know nothing about I think it is more detrimental then any one (food > >industry if you will ) standing up to protect their product > >Ron Boyer > >www.blackbeans.com > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 8 07:18:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21491 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18912 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA03597; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:10:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03500 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:09:31 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.7) id dPEUa26562 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3e47aefe.243de82a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:08:26 EDT Subject: Re: media To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 In a message dated 4/8/99 2:01:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, michelle@animal.blarg.net writes: << I would like to say that we in Western WA are having the coldest wettest spring in 40 years (give or take) and we may all move south soon. Michelle >> Hey, eh! (recently back home to spittin' distance of the Canadian border from a visit to South Carolina) -- Michelle, does that mean that San Juan Island property prices will be dropping so the hordes from the East who are starved for more progressive thinking can descend upon you guys? Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 9 02:12:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA15647 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA14054 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 02:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01323; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 01:03:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01091 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 00:56:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA30793; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:56:10 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:56:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: DGreen47@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: media In-Reply-To: <3e47aefe.243de82a@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 Dori, No the prices are not going down...but a lot of people are getting light boxes! Sunshine in a box, what an idea... We do value the generous thinking though. I have a farming friend, single, very amazing woman who just moved back to Wisconsin. She is happy to be home, but in shock after being in the NW where singleness is a non issue. She feels like a fish out of water, and misses the forward thinking as well. That progressive thinking can get kind of goofy of course:) Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Thu, 8 Apr 1999 DGreen47@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/8/99 2:01:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > michelle@animal.blarg.net writes: > > << I would like to say that we in Western WA are having the coldest wettest > spring in 40 years (give or take) and we may all move south soon. > > Michelle >> > > Hey, eh! (recently back home to spittin' distance of the Canadian border > from a visit to South Carolina) -- Michelle, does that mean that San Juan > Island property prices will be dropping so the hordes from the East who are > starved for more progressive thinking can descend upon you guys? > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > Corning, NY > > http://www.agrove.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 9 11:20:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22350 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12014 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA22184; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:12:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22080 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:11:29 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dADKa21908 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:08:20 EDT Subject: Re: Adjusting to Locations (was media) To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 I used to suffer terribly from Seasonal Affective Disorder ("SAD") which culminated every March with depression so severe that I could barely function. The cheap light boxes are worthless, but the good ones are worth their weight in gold. I convinced our local county mental health clinic to invest in one (it was more than $700) and install it at the public library. That's where I catch up on my reading once or twice a week during the bleary days. To give a hint of the "thinking" disorder in my neck of the woods -- the Corning public library is on the verge of closing due to lack of local financial support. This library serves an area of about 20,000 people. "Nobody reads any more" is the excuse voiced most often, then "But the Elmira library is only 20 miles away". I grew up three blocks from the University of Rochester. Believe me, there were some adjustments to go through when I relocated to this area in 1985! My mother's next-door neighbor in Rochester was murdered by a 19-year-old intruder out on parole. Suicide is the most common form of violent death out here in the country -- if we don't get run off the road by one of those crazy gotta-make-the-quote Schwann Frozen Food truck drivers. This adjustment was easier to make. I'm surprised that more people out here aren't making use of the new solar barn technologies, and I'm looking at having a demo barn put up here and becoming a dealer for them. Got an idea for a livestock/greenhouse/crop rotation a' la' Chicken Tractors. Incidentally, my little 20 acres of heaven here in lower Upstate New York actually gets fewer days of sunlight per year than does Seattle. I don't mind rain but unrelenting wind can drive me totally crazy. I have a pretty unrelenting wind here on my hilltop farm even though there's one more hill between me and the flatlands leading to Lake Erie more than 100 miles away. The wind gets a pretty good "oomph" going by the time it gets here. So I use a LOT of windbreaks, screens, and cold frames constructed out of recycled materials. And recognize that CCE might say I'm Zone 5 but reality is more like 3/4. Things also grow well here, and it's a place sorely in need of some new ideas about the definitions of Community so I stick around. At least for now. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com Sponsor: Summer Solstice CSA & Homesteading Workshop Weekend June 18-20 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 9 13:01:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24058 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 13:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09582 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 12:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28807; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:50:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gwgate.lib.iastate.edu (gwgate.lib.iastate.edu [129.186.11.21]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28719 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 11:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Parks_Library-Message_Server by gwgate.lib.iastate.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:49:43 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 11:49:39 -0500 From: "Jeff Hall" To: HPANDERS@aol.com, robertftf@isunet.net, smithfam@netins.net, csa-l@prairienet.org, pernell_74@yahoo.com Subject: Iowa State Daily, 4/9/99 (including name corrections) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id LAA28722 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 Student farm, CSA provide Ames with organic goods by Olivia Ogren Daily Staff Writer "By the people, for the people" is the philosophy of the Magic Beanstalk's Community Supported Agriculture program. In its fifth year in Ames, the Magic Beanstalk CSA project is a partnership between local organic growers and community members who want fresh, chemical-free produce. The program took off in 1995 with a grant from the Kellogg Foundation. What started as one producer supplying organic produce to a few participants has grown to five weekly suppliers filling 125 shares of food this year. One share is able feed two or three people. Marilyn Andersen, co-founder of the program, said one reason sustainable agriculture has gained popularity is because "people are becoming aware of the dangers of pesticides." She said Magic Beanstalk CSA gives people a better understanding and appreciation of the work that goes into producing their food. "People learn their food comes from the ground, not the grocery store," Andersen said. One of the participating farms is Heenah Mayah [Mahyah], an organic farm run by ISU students. Last season, the farm supplied peas, pumpkins and carrots to the program. The farm raises produce to supply shares to the Magic Beanstalk CSA for the farmer's market and donates the leftovers to the Bethesda Lutheran Church's food pantry. Ricardo Salvador, associate professor of agronomy, instructs student volunteers who work at the farm. Salvador said the farm provides students with more information than could possibly fit into one of his classes. "What they learn in a season is more than I can teach them in one semester," Salvador said. Contrary to popular belief, Salvador said organic farming isn't "a step back in time," though it is more labor intensive than common farming methods, and there's generally more planning involved. Pernell Plast [Plath], ISU alumna, volunteered on ISU's farm as an undergraduate and continues to do so, splitting her time between Heenah Mayah and Magic Beanstalk CSA. "One of the biggest things I learned is there is more than one way to do everything," Plast said. "There are a lot of time-saving things you can do." Plast also works for the Field to Family Project, a project linked to Magic Beanstalk CSA helping low-income families purchase produce shares from the CSA. Robert Carp [Karp], co-director of Field to Family, said the organization provides many services designed to help strengthen the local community and support local agriculture. "Magic Beanstalk demonstrated a new approach to food and agriculture," Carp said. "[This] shows we can support local agriculture." Members of the two groups help distribute the food among various food pantries including Bethesda Lutheran Church, 1517 Northwestern Ave., Assault Care Center Extending Shelter and Support and a local homeless shelter, Carp said. Carp said Magic Beanstalk CSA helps meet the demand for chemical-free produce. "People want their money to go to environmentally safe food and agriculture," Carp said. "It shows there's a real longing and demand for a farm connection and fresh produce," Carp said. Bruce Smith, owner of the Iowa Fresh Produce farm in Jewell, has been producing for the Magic Beanstalk CSA for the last three seasons. "It's not a business but a way of life," Smith said. Prev | Home | Next This article was published on Friday, April 9, 1999. Copyright 1999 by the Iowa State Daily Publications Board. All rights reserved. No redistribution without the express written consent of the Iowa State Daily Editor in Chief. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 10 00:29:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04452 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11898 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA12238; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:14:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA12176 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 23:13:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA04610; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:13:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 21:13:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: DGreen47@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Adjusting to Locations (was media) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 I CAN NOT imagine living with such a library. New farmers should look into such things...I do love the idea of having a good light box at the library. I'm going to bring it up to ours here and will let you know when it gets installed. Living on an island we don't have a lot of community centers and our library is a very busy place. I hope to meet you some day, rain or shine, Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Fri, 9 Apr 1999 DGreen47@aol.com wrote: > I used to suffer terribly from Seasonal Affective Disorder ("SAD") which > culminated every March with depression so severe that I could barely > function. The cheap light boxes are worthless, but the good ones are worth > their weight in gold. I convinced our local county mental health clinic to > invest in one (it was more than $700) and install it at the public library. > That's where I catch up on my reading once or twice a week during the bleary > days. > > To give a hint of the "thinking" disorder in my neck of the woods -- the > Corning public library is on the verge of closing due to lack of local > financial support. This library serves an area of about 20,000 people. > > "Nobody reads any more" is the excuse voiced most often, then "But the Elmira > library is only 20 miles away". > > I grew up three blocks from the University of Rochester. Believe me, there > were some adjustments to go through when I relocated to this area in 1985! > > My mother's next-door neighbor in Rochester was murdered by a 19-year-old > intruder out on parole. Suicide is the most common form of violent death out > here in the country -- if we don't get run off the road by one of those crazy > gotta-make-the-quote Schwann Frozen Food truck drivers. This adjustment was > easier to make. > > I'm surprised that more people out here aren't making use of the new solar > barn technologies, and I'm looking at having a demo barn put up here and > becoming a dealer for them. Got an idea for a livestock/greenhouse/crop > rotation a' la' Chicken Tractors. > > Incidentally, my little 20 acres of heaven here in lower Upstate New York > actually gets fewer days of sunlight per year than does Seattle. I don't > mind rain but unrelenting wind can drive me totally crazy. I have a pretty > unrelenting wind here on my hilltop farm even though there's one more hill > between me and the flatlands leading to Lake Erie more than 100 miles away. > The wind gets a pretty good "oomph" going by the time it gets here. > > So I use a LOT of windbreaks, screens, and cold frames constructed out of > recycled materials. And recognize that CCE might say I'm Zone 5 but reality > is more like 3/4. Things also grow well here, and it's a place sorely in > need of some new ideas about the definitions of Community so I stick around. > > At least for now. > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > Corning, NY > > http://www.agrove.com > > Sponsor: Summer Solstice CSA & Homesteading Workshop Weekend June 18-20 > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 10 04:55:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06436 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA00982 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA21444; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:46:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from styx.host4u.net (styx.host4u.net [209.150.128.165]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA21398 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:46:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tonasketuser027.televar.com (tonasketuser027.televar.com [208.8.144.36]) by styx.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA12560 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:46:31 -0500 Message-Id: <199904100846.DAA12560@styx.host4u.net> From: "Terry King" To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 09:20:16 -0600 Reply-To: "Terry King" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: PMMail 1.96a For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:32:10 +0000, Jeff Herr wrote: >Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with plastic mulch? > >-- Jeff > >The Cabbage Ranch >Carnation, WA Hello All, I just joined this list as I research how to start a CSA type project servicing my church community. I'm in the usually sunny Okanogan of E. WA. where we have 2 inches of new snow this morning! As for using plastic mulch to suppress quackgrass I've had mixed results. It seems to work best if the area can be tilled and many of the stolons removed first then use a thick mil plastic, at *least* 4 mil, that thin 1 or 1.5 mil will not work. The quackgrass here will put roots down and grow up through thin plastics and cheaper weed block fabric even when mulched with several inches. I've also had it grow up through 2' of aging manure. I'm currently battling quackgrass myself in the area I want to put my tomato house. I will probably use a heavy commercial weed block fabric on top of the soil after I till enough to dry out and/or remove enough stolons from the soil. I'm interested to know if there are any CSA's in E. WA? All the listings I've found in WA are on the westside. Terry in the Okanogan of E. WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 10 17:38:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15513 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14278 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17021; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:29:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16936 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:29:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904102129.QAA16936@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 27671379; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:28:41 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "Terry King" , Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:17:35 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 we. too have had mixed results with plastic (but tending to be effective). Another option we have had some success with is a smother crop of buckwheat. By planting as soon as weather permits (it is tender) then tilling it in just before it goes to seed, immediately planting another crop of buckwheat, tilling in as before...as many times as your climate permits (3 crops in northern MI). Good dirt and few weeds are the result. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Terry King > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Subject: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 11:20 AM > > On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:32:10 +0000, Jeff Herr wrote: > > >Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with plastic > mulch? > > > >-- Jeff > > > >The Cabbage Ranch > >Carnation, WA > > Hello All, > > I just joined this list as I research how to start a CSA type project servicing my > church community. I'm in the usually sunny Okanogan of E. WA. where we have 2 > inches of new snow this morning! > > As for using plastic mulch to suppress quackgrass I've had mixed results. It seems > to work best if the area can be tilled and many of the stolons removed first then use > a thick mil plastic, at *least* 4 mil, that thin 1 or 1.5 mil will not work. The quackgrass > here will put roots down and grow up through thin plastics and cheaper weed block > fabric even when mulched with several inches. I've also had it grow up through 2' of > aging manure. > > I'm currently battling quackgrass myself in the area I want to put my tomato house. I > will probably use a heavy commercial weed block fabric on top of the soil after I till > enough to dry out and/or remove enough stolons from the soil. > > I'm interested to know if there are any CSA's in E. WA? All the listings I've found in > WA are on the westside. > > Terry > in the Okanogan of E. WA > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 10 19:03:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16244 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08456 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA20056; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:55:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sparky.hampshire.ma.us ([198.3.35.25]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19983 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:54:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.usa.com (farmer [192.168.0.3]) by sparky.hampshire.ma.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23808 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:20:06 -0400 Message-ID: <370FD73E.EC80BA2F@mail.usa.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:57:02 -0400 From: Scott Reed X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch References: <199904102129.QAA16936@firefly.prairienet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 I've often wondered why we don't let the buckwheat reseed itself instead of tilling it in before it goes to seed. Why not let it go to seed and then lightly disc it? - scott Riverland Farm, Sunderland, MA Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > we. too have had mixed results with plastic (but tending to be effective). > Another option we have had some success with is a smother crop of > buckwheat. By planting as soon as weather permits (it is tender) then > tilling it in just before it goes to seed, immediately planting another > crop of buckwheat, tilling in as before...as many times as your climate > permits (3 crops in northern MI). Good dirt and few weeds are the result. > Jo and Jim > "The Community Farm" newsletter > A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture > http://www.gks.com/TCF/ > > ---------- > > From: Terry King > > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > > Subject: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch > > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 11:20 AM > > > > On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:32:10 +0000, Jeff Herr wrote: > > > > >Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with > plastic > > mulch? > > > > > >-- Jeff > > > > > >The Cabbage Ranch > > >Carnation, WA > > > > Hello All, > > > > I just joined this list as I research how to start a CSA type project > servicing my > > church community. I'm in the usually sunny Okanogan of E. WA. where we > have 2 > > inches of new snow this morning! > > > > As for using plastic mulch to suppress quackgrass I've had mixed results. > It seems > > to work best if the area can be tilled and many of the stolons removed > first then use > > a thick mil plastic, at *least* 4 mil, that thin 1 or 1.5 mil will not > work. The quackgrass > > here will put roots down and grow up through thin plastics and cheaper > weed block > > fabric even when mulched with several inches. I've also had it grow up > through 2' of > > aging manure. > > > > I'm currently battling quackgrass myself in the area I want to put my > tomato house. I > > will probably use a heavy commercial weed block fabric on top of the soil > after I till > > enough to dry out and/or remove enough stolons from the soil. > > > > I'm interested to know if there are any CSA's in E. WA? All the listings > I've found in > > WA are on the westside. > > > > Terry > > in the Okanogan of E. WA > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 11 04:57:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA04227 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06490 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA09879; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:49:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA09821 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 03:47:04 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dLIPa07515 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <849d0ddc.2441bb49@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:46:01 EDT Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Another hearty vote for buckwheat here, where my problem was Terminal Knotgrass. Millet is also terrific for weed suppression. I put it in for that purpose, and again to grow a crop for my chickens. Of course it was just a cover crop and in one of my earlier years so I didn't record the exact variety etc. -- but I just sold the last wrist-thick bunched ornamental spray of the stuff for $4.50 -- it was a GREAT crop and a ready market. I'd love to plant the same thing again. As an organic farmer I resist the use of nonrenewable resources, especially ones that pose a disposal problem. I worked for several years for Mobil Chemical's Plastic Films Division -- everything bad that's said about plastic is just the iceberg tip. Certainly plasic is allowed by most certification programs. But let's pull back once in a while and think about what we're doing and why we're doing it. I do admit that I'm still experimenting with alternatives to plastic for my melons. Tomatoes and peppers and epplants are doing great in my zone 4/5 with green mulches. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 11 10:24:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05831 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26277 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA17366; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.58.198]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17264 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 09:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB103-42.splitrock.net [209.156.66.88]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA76262; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:15:31 -0400 Message-Id: <199904111415.KAA76262@pimout4-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , Subject: csa vs. other farm sales Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:14:24 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 hello everyone. we're a start-up csa in southwest ohio, just west of dayton, ohio (hello you folks who are doing the same in yellow springs). we have a great group of folks as our initial core and are very excited about working together with them. we're very committed to the csa concept but our question is this: for those of you who operate both csa and either farmstands, farmers' markets or other kinds of sales, how do you determine what goes to the csa and what goes to your other kinds of sales? obviously, the csa must have priority but it cannot be our whole farm income this year at least. i'm sure that a whole lot of it has to do with planning, but we could really use some specifics in how you actually do it. thanks for your help. reading your posts has helped move us forward, thinking that we really could do this. noreen willhelm & vince mckelvey spring run farm new lebanon, ohio From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 11 16:20:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09814 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11002 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA02380; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:12:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02330 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:11:41 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dKAOa01910 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:10:23 EDT Subject: Re: csa vs. other farm sales To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 My CSA is a relatively small part of my total farm sales. Garden co-op members (what most folks think of when they say "CSA") are entitled to a $10 weekly credit for the 22 weeks of the growing season. I've posted order sheets for the months of June through October at my website, complete with prices. If anybody wants to order more than their $10 credit's worth, they just enclose a check for the balance along with their order sheet. Profits from all sales -- CSA, farm stand, auction, grocery store, restaurant, farm market, and other activities -- events, workshops, tours -- are shared at the end of the season by all of the people who worked to make them happen. "Profit" is defined as the money left over after bills are paid and I'm reimbursed for the money I put out up front to get things started at the beginning of the season (so far about $1500 this year) and the insurance and taxes for the next year are paid. If somebody ended up putting in 10% of the total time, whether they designed websites or pulled weeds, they receive 10% of the net profit. This way we are a cooperative association with no employees. I usually plan and plant about six times what I figure I'm going to need to fulfill that $10 weekly promise. God must love drunks and fools, because it almost always works out well. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com monthly order sheets for 1999 at ord06.html, ord07.html....ord10.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 11 18:01:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11013 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:01:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09002 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06667; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:53:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jake.excite.com (jake-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.221]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA06604 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:53:00 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by jake.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990411215215.WFHB22643.jake@ringo.excite.com>; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:52:15 -0700 To: VINCEMCKELVEY@prodigy.net Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: csa vs. other farm sales Message-Id: <923867533.348.770@excite.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 14:52:13 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.165 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 Hello Vince, Wow another CSA in SW Ohio. No I am not from YS but from New Paris just north west of you. We are in our second season with the CSA but have been doing farm markets for about 5 years now. We get the majority of our income from farm market sales than sales to two health food stores and a co-op we belong too and than finally the CSA. So far we have 4 paid shares and and a 5th family that will be paying soon. We have been into heavy planting mode the past few weeks so we haven't attempted much in the way of member recruitment for the CSA so 5 may be all the membership we have this year. At any rate, at this point we do not depend on the CSA aspect of the farm to pay the bills, yet. As the concept grows in the area we will get more members and the plan is to eventually depend on the CSA for the majority of our sales. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 00:49:34 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15785 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17094 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 00:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27751; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:38:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27702 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 23:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool035-max7.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.235]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14630 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990411213248.0083c190@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 21:32:48 -0700 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: Any School Ag Programs Selling Subscriptions? In-Reply-To: <040011734040149CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 Hi y'all, Organic food can be cheaper to buy. You gotta cooperate! I'm doing a little project on campus at Cal Poly Pomona (California State Polytechnic University Pomona). The college of agriculture farms about 200-acres of our 1,477-acre campus, selling some produce at local farmers markets, in the campus Farm Store, and most of the crops get fed to campus livestock. My project is looking into market demand for a CSA-style weekly drop at the student apartments on campus. About 800 students live there, and according to my survey figures: over 95% would subscribe if a service were started. Question 1: What other schools are doing this? Most of my food needs are currently met through a small buying coop. We all pitch-in, and our selected shoppers do their thing. For the $24-$29 each of us pays per week, we receive an abundance of bioregional, organic, fresh produce, baked goods, dairy, condiments,pasta, beans, grains, etc. (Beer brewing is another coop, so doesn't show up in this study.) I'm finding that the money spent by the apartment students is about $10 more than I spend per week, and they are almost all unsatisfied with their inadequate consumption of fruits and vegetables. It looks like high time to expand our little coop to include the apartments, but scaling up may be tough. Question 2: What books and/or software packages can you reccommend for buyers coops? Question 3: Where can I find a list of (local) buyers coops? Thanks, Fred FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Earning an MS in Sustainable Aquaculture at Cal Poly Pomona, I enjoy the rewards and challenges of living, learning, working, and playing. The dedicated, hard working team of students, staff, and faculty is the best part of being involved with the Center for Regenerative Studies Anyone *CAN* live a comfortable, modern life, without the big environmental footprint. http://www.csupomona.edu/~crs/ Check out my peers in the NFB. They have it together! http://www.nfb.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 10:17:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20768 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04590 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18474; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:09:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18358 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:08:12 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dXHUa07510 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5959348f.244355a5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:56:53 EDT Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 Greetings Vince, Most small farms that are around today are surviving because they have diversified enough. Don't ever plan on supporting the whole farm with one marketing strategy. You'll loose everything over time. A farm is a dynamic and integrated biosphere which requires diversity to thrive and succeed. A good rule of thumb is to develop a CSA that accounts for 1/3 to no more than 1/2 of your income. Its great to get that financial boost in the spring to cover all of the costs for your growing operation. But you better be producing and selling much more than the CSA requires. Look at Dori's diverse enterprise. She may not be rich. But she will always be there as trends and fashions change. Look to developing added value products you can sell to increase your farm's public recognition. We sell herbal soaps and skin creams, present workshops, sell at the Farmer's Market and have a natural foods dry goods coop in addition to our CSA. Good luck, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm Bainbridge Island, WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 11:08:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21769 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18485 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22135; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:57:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22026 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:57:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.200] [209.8.149.132] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id AABC692008C; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:01:16 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5959348f.244355a5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:57:27 -0400 To: SCook21809@aol.com From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: Cc: CSA list Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 Seeing that this is the busiest time of the year I haven't had much time to read this list lately, but it has been raining this morning and Art's message surprised me greatly. I'm sorry to differ with Art, but I know he's wrong. The 1/3,, 1/2 figures must be pulled out of the sky and not experience. Atleast not our experience. Our vegetable share program is well run and much less trendy than herbal soaps and workshops. And it works. We find it a very stable market, much more stable than farmers markets, selling to coops or restaurants. Each year we develop a stronger and more committed customer base consisting of individuals and families who want to directly support family farms and eat vegetables that they can see grow and not interested in buying produce from a faceless inhuman corporate food system. Additionally, it is mixing apples and tomatoes to think that the way you market is the same as a dynamic and integrated biosphere. Our integrated farm management has very little to do with whether we sell our crops directly through a share program or to a middleman. A well managed share program can be more profitable and predicable than other sorts of vegetable operations. It can also bring the consumer of vegetables more in touch with their food than other food distribution models. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 12:57:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24028 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20121 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00817; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:48:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00725 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:47:51 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dXRZa23591 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:32:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:32:57 EDT Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 In a message dated 4/12/99 10:10:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, SCook21809@aol.com writes: << Look at Dori's diverse enterprise. >> Just don't look at my housekeeping or that twitch. What twitch? You really have to have a strong dose of obsessive-compulsivism and attention deficit disorder to succeed at the multiple-diversity stuff, I think. If you like leaping from one thing to another, then it's perfect! Dori Did I mention that my only milking doe (Heidi, the website's poster girl) upped and died on me three days after I brought home three bottle babies -- leaving her 30-day-old twins as orphans? I bought a new doe yesterday, the mom of one of the babies, and named her "NOT The Momma" since it's true for most of them. Of course, her nickname is "Momma". Except when she tries to kick me in the face while I'm trimming a foot, then it's "KNOT-head". Thanks to the previous owner, who's agreed to wait for her money for Momma until I get Heidi's vet and backhoe bills paid. In return, I'm taking one more doe who's bred for an August delivery, a red LaMancha who thinks she's a Golden Retriever (even has her own Woobie she carries around). She's a perfect, perfect goat for a petting farm. I'll be rigging a maternity/nursery ward in the basement so she and her babies have a cool place during the heat of the day. Momma had a bull calf put directly on her as soon as I took Buffy away and her feet are so overgrown that her legs are out of kilter and she's got a suspicious lump under her jaw (which I didn't find until I got her home or I would probably have left her there). Of course she's in two-week quarantine with the babies and I don't even pet my guys until after I've gone back to the house to wash with hot water and soap. I'm having the vet come out toward the end of the week and if the jaw thing is an abscess we might have a little bit of surgery going on to get it opened and drained and cleared up before I put her in with the rest of the herd. And I'll have it biopsied to make sure it isn't CL disease. Oy, and somebody told me once "get goats, they're simple". They lied. I tell you, this diversification stuff -- especially livestock as well as produce and especially goats as well as gardens -- is not for the squeamish or those of low energy. Milk replacer would probably have worked, but the babies will grow so much better with real goat milk added to it. And of course the distraction of the new animals is very good for me, Heidi was my very first goat and we were deeply bonded. Of my herd of 11, five are her babies. Emotionally I'm still a hurtin' puppy today, that midnight decision to have the vet release her was a hard one -- but the alternative to this pain is not to love them, and I'll pay the pain price instead of the distance price that too many livestock people choose to protect themselves. I had her buried just above the paddock where new babies enjoy their first days outside, and I'm planting a pansy bed over the grave. Edible flowers, anyone? (oh, stop that, she's five feet below the topsoil). D. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 14:56:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26897 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28064 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11306; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:47:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldgroup.kingcon.com (worldgroup.kingcon.com [207.136.229.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11185 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:46:26 -0500 (CDT) X-ROUTED: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:46:32 -0400 X-TCP-IDENTITY: Sjo Received: from sjo [207.136.229.64] by worldgroup.kingcon.com with smtp id AOCOBFAA ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:46:22 -0400 X-Sender: sjol@KingCon.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Curtis Sjolander Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: Message-ID: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 Hello, I'm sorry to differ with Art & Leigh, but they are both wrong. It depends on where you are marketing your produce. Not every person is a good candidate for CSA. Not every person buys at farmers' markets. I know of a farm (in another area) which is 100% CSA which is a stable sustainable operation. I know of another farm (in yet another area) which has 100% of sales to farmers' markets which is a stable sustainable operation. I can imagine an area where herbal soap sales would be more viable and stable than a vegetable CSA... If your area has a sufficient number of people who "fit" the CSA model, then a 100% CSA IS a stable market. If your area has sufficient number of people who "fit" farmers' markets, then 100% of sales to farmers' markets IS a stable market. If your area does NOT have a sufficient number of people who "fit" either model, then a stable market MAY be some combination. In an ideal world, everyone should be a good "fit" for CSA, but I have noticed that the world is not ideal yet! CSA accounts for much less than 1% (I would guess) of food distribution. ALL organic food marketing methods are still a small percentage of the total food produced. ALL small scale direct produce sales are even a smaller percentage of the total food produced. The potential is HUGE, the actuality is still very humble. In my area, from my experience (10 year farmers' markets, 5 years CSA, 7 years farmstand), I have concluded that 100% of any one marketing method or any one or small number of products is not viable. Is ANY combination of farm marketting and products viable and sustainable over the long term in my local area? Ask me in 10 years - I MIGHT have an answer. - Curt in Wheelock, VT still watching the snow melt... -- Curtis Sjolander sjol@KingCon.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 15:22:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27440 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05350 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA13189; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:11:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13126 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:11:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.200] [198.69.131.211] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A64E69700AA; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:15:26 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:11:37 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Curt, you're right. I can't imagine living in West Texas or Western Nebraska, or Eastern Colorado and making a living from a vegetable share program. With the city growing closer to our farm (on an hourly basis) a share program works just ducky for us. The reason why we like a share program is its predicability. We know how much to grow, how much I'm going to sell and how much we're going to make. And the best part is, we get the money at about the time we start planting. It takes a lot of the financial worry out of the business of farming. And finally, shares aren't for everyone. There is a great deal of salespersonship in the business. Not just selling the shares but all during the season, working the shareholders so they understand the program and are made happy. It's not good enough to grow great veggies, you have to educate the customers about the program, process and vegetables. If they are happy they renew and they sell the idea to their friends who sign up too. Leigh From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 15:39:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28301 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10780 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14332; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:30:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14270 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:29:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA16880; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:29:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-202.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.202) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016832; Mon Apr 12 14:28:28 1999 Message-ID: <005701be851a$6aa51440$cafb6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "Curtis Sjolander" Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:26:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 >Hello, >Or we could say everyone is right :). Curt's right its not one size fits all. We are farming "part time" (its alot of hours for part time). Basically only CSA last year want to branch out a bit this year, farmer's market and or some wholesale(sort of retail wholesale in that we would market and deliver not a middleman). We are going to attend a agricultural convention in mid June. I don't know what to expect I don't know what I want to expect. Its put on by the Dept of Food and Ag. and its a two day thing. First day is for Big wigs including the governor, chefs, specialty stores etc. Second day its open to the public. They come into get a dose of "farm" we are hoping of course to get some members and some wholesale accounts. Its $150 for both days. And there will be press there etc. Any suggestions to make us look greeeeeeeeat! Unfortunetly it will be mid June which isn't when we'll have a bunch of stuff to show off. But I will have some stuff. I think I am going to steal an idea I saw a another convention. A vcr playing a continous tape of the farm, no sound just beautifull pictures. Just to save rewinding your make the tape so it show the same few minutes over and over. Of course I know what catches eyes its the animals so they will get star billing. The garden oh yea we'll throw that in. But we get a pretty good size booth what should I include? Beth >I'm sorry to differ with Art & Leigh, but they are both wrong. > >It depends on where you are marketing your produce. Not every person is a >good candidate for CSA. Not every person buys at farmers' markets. I know >of a farm (in another area) which is 100% CSA which is a stable sustainable >operation. I know of another farm (in yet another area) which has 100% of >sales to farmers' markets which is a stable sustainable operation. I can >imagine an area where herbal soap sales would be more viable and stable than >a vegetable CSA... From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 15:42:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28378 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11472 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14571; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:33:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14515 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:32:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA17416 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:32:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-202.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.202) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017270; Mon Apr 12 14:31:50 1999 Message-ID: <005c01be851a$e38c01c0$cafb6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "CSA list" Subject: Re: csa & other farm sales: Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:30:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 ->Leigh, ya said a mouthful there! Sometimes I love it sometimes I want to pull the shade! I would like to get more into cooking, preserving instructions think that would be useful/fun. Beth > There is a great deal of >salespersonship in the business. Not just selling the shares but all during >the season, working the shareholders so they understand the program and are >made happy. It's not good enough to grow great veggies, you have to >educate the customers about the program, process and vegetables. If they >are happy they renew and they sell the idea to their friends who sign up >too. >Leigh > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 19:01:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03944 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17224 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29795; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:53:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29698 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:52:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904122252.RAA29698@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 205486644; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 22:52:16 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "Scott Reed" , Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:46:45 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 I think that letting the buckwheat reseed will work (though we have never tried it that way). Our goal is fast re-cropping when we are trying to smother, so we till it in before it goes to seed, at least the first time. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Scott Reed > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch > Date: Saturday, April 10, 1999 6:57 PM > > I've often wondered why we don't let the buckwheat reseed itself instead of > tilling it in before it goes to seed. Why not let it go to seed and then > lightly disc it? > - scott > Riverland Farm, Sunderland, MA > > Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > > > we. too have had mixed results with plastic (but tending to be effective). > > Another option we have had some success with is a smother crop of > > buckwheat. By planting as soon as weather permits (it is tender) then > > tilling it in just before it goes to seed, immediately planting another > > crop of buckwheat, tilling in as before...as many times as your climate > > permits (3 crops in northern MI). Good dirt and few weeds are the result. > > Jo and Jim > > "The Community Farm" newsletter > > A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture > > http://www.gks.com/TCF/ > > > > ---------- > > > From: Terry King > > > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > > > Subject: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch > > > Date: Friday, April 09, 1999 11:20 AM > > > > > > On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 04:32:10 +0000, Jeff Herr wrote: > > > > > > >Back on track: Has anyone had any success taking on quack grass with > > plastic > > > mulch? > > > > > > > >-- Jeff > > > > > > > >The Cabbage Ranch > > > >Carnation, WA > > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I just joined this list as I research how to start a CSA type project > > servicing my > > > church community. I'm in the usually sunny Okanogan of E. WA. where we > > have 2 > > > inches of new snow this morning! > > > > > > As for using plastic mulch to suppress quackgrass I've had mixed results. > > It seems > > > to work best if the area can be tilled and many of the stolons removed > > first then use > > > a thick mil plastic, at *least* 4 mil, that thin 1 or 1.5 mil will not > > work. The quackgrass > > > here will put roots down and grow up through thin plastics and cheaper > > weed block > > > fabric even when mulched with several inches. I've also had it grow up > > through 2' of > > > aging manure. > > > > > > I'm currently battling quackgrass myself in the area I want to put my > > tomato house. I > > > will probably use a heavy commercial weed block fabric on top of the soil > > after I till > > > enough to dry out and/or remove enough stolons from the soil. > > > > > > I'm interested to know if there are any CSA's in E. WA? All the listings > > I've found in > > > WA are on the westside. > > > > > > Terry > > > in the Okanogan of E. WA > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 21:02:41 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06263 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18180 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA08586; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:53:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stinger.excite.com (stinger-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.220]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08458 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:52:14 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from spike.excite.com ([199.172.152.97]) by stinger.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990413005120.MDTC15757.stinger@spike.excite.com> for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:51:20 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Off Topic Funny! Message-Id: <923964679.29942.359@excite.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:51:19 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.89 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 A bit off topic but during this busy time of year we all need some levity..... > > > >>> Technology for Country Folk... > >>> > >>> 1. LOG ON: Makin a wood stove hotter. > >>> > >>> 2. LOG OFF: Don't add no more wood. > >>> > >>> 3. MONITOR: Keepin an eye on the wood stove. > >>> > >>> 4. DOWNLOAD: Gettin the farwood off the truk. > >>> > >>> 5. MEGA HERTZ: When yer not kerful gettin the farwood. > >>> > >>> 6. FLOPPY DISC: Whatcha git from tryin to carry too much > >>> farwood. > >>> > >>> 7. RAM: That thar thing whut splits the farwood. > >>> > >>> 8. HARD DRIVE: Gettin home in the winter time. > >>> > >>> 9. PROMPT: Whut the mail ain't in the winter time. > >>> > >>> 10. WINDOWS: Whut to shut wen it's cold outside. > >>> > >>> 11. SCREEN: Whut to shut wen it's blak fly season. > >>> > >>> 12. BYTE: Whut them dang flys do. > >>> > >>> 13. CHIP: Munchies fer the TV. > >>> > >>> 14. MICRO CHIP: Whut's in the bottom of the munchie bag. > >>> > >>> 15. MODEM: Whut cha did to the hay fields. > >>> > >>> 16. DOT MATRIX: Old Dan Matrix's wife. > >>> > >>> 17. LAP TOP: Whar the kitty sleeps. > >>> > >>> 18. KEYBOARD: Whar ya hang the dang keys. > >>> > >>> 19. SOFTWARE: Them dang plastic forks and knifs. > >>> > >>> 20. MOUSE: Whut eats the grain in the barn. > >>> > >>> 21. MAINFRAME: Holds up the barn roof. > >>> > >>> 22. PORT: Fancy Flatlander wine > >>> > >>> 23. ENTER: Northerner talk fer "C'mon in y'all" > >>> > >>> 24. RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY: Wen ya cain't 'member whut ya > >>> paid fer the rifle when yore wife asks. > >>> > >>> 25. MOUSE PAD: That hippie talk fer the rat hole. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 12 21:21:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06446 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22073 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 21:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10079; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:13:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09860 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:10:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.244.182.210] (dialup-209.244.182.210.NewYork2.Level3.net [209.244.182.210]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04348 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904130110.SAA04348@harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:09:19 -0500 Subject: From: "Jaclyn Oddi" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 am still tryng hard to unsubscribe but dont understand this alias/list/etc stuff cld someone pls put into common language the protocol someone must follow to be unsubscribed pls o pls? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 13 04:45:51 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA12483 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA20513 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 04:39:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA01511; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:38:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA01470 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 03:37:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA24458; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:37:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 01:37:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: DGreen47@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch In-Reply-To: <849d0ddc.2441bb49@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 I would agree that plastic is BAD, but in the world of sustainable organic agriculture, with my personal single parent, homeschooling, activist, adopting, teaching, and grant writing, being available to my community who are more vulnerable than me, farming self...it gives me a way to have my beds ready when I am. The plastic lasts 3 years if you roll it up at the end of spring, and even longer if you are in a patching mode. This is a wonderful and hard living (farming...a lifestyle choice, as I often hear), and the sustainability issue in my mind involves more than how long it takes plastic to decompose at the dump... Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 DGreen47@aol.com wrote: > Another hearty vote for buckwheat here, where my problem was Terminal > Knotgrass. > > Millet is also terrific for weed suppression. I put it in for that purpose, > and again to grow a crop for my chickens. Of course it was just a cover crop > and in one of my earlier years so I didn't record the exact variety etc. -- > but I just sold the last wrist-thick bunched ornamental spray of the stuff > for $4.50 -- it was a GREAT crop and a ready market. I'd love to plant the > same thing again. > > As an organic farmer I resist the use of nonrenewable resources, especially > ones that pose a disposal problem. I worked for several years for Mobil > Chemical's Plastic Films Division -- everything bad that's said about plastic > is just the iceberg tip. Certainly plasic is allowed by most certification > programs. But let's pull back once in a while and think about what we're > doing and why we're doing it. > > I do admit that I'm still experimenting with alternatives to plastic for my > melons. Tomatoes and peppers and epplants are doing great in my zone 4/5 > with green mulches. > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > Corning, NY > > http://www.agrove.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 13 07:00:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA13124 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 07:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA12667 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA04043; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:51:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA03919 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:48:06 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dALSa22984 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:46:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 06:46:57 EDT Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 Use of plastic is a personal choice and I didn't mean to imply any criticism of organic farmers who choose to use it -- especially since most of them do the extra work mentioned by Michelle of re-use and patching and using again. And I'm looking very seriously at one of those new plastic solar barns, and my experiments re: alternatives to plastic are continuing. Some folks might not be lucky enough to have as many rocks as I do -- I can pile them in towers three feet high in my heat-loving plants' rows, plus lay them as a mulch to suppress weeds. Channery silt loam, heavy on the channery. My cooperative extension guys continue to marvel that I "make" anything grow here. Hey, seeds want to grow. All I do is encourage them a little bit. And if we're going to continue to pave over the accessible river bottom land and turn it into WalMart parking lots, somebody had better figure out how to grow food on the hills. Everybody's conditions and choices are different. Viva diversity! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 13 14:01:12 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00836 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25775 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01221; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:51:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (wya-oe4.hotmail.com [207.82.253.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01013 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 12:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 39753 invoked by uid 0); 13 Apr 1999 17:49:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19990413174932.39751.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.138.149.4 by wy1lg.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:49:32 PDT X-Originating-IP: [192.138.149.4] From: "Laura Trent" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Q.A.I. Organic Certification Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:49:32 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 I am wondering if anyone out there knows about Quality Assurance International? They offer organic certification in 6-8 weeks instead of the 6-8 months required by the CCOF (California Certified Organic Farmers) process. Are they crooks, scoundrels or perfectly legitimate? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 14 09:02:30 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17679 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24854 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04104; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:53:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04024 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:52:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904141252.HAA04024@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 75800535; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:52:07 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:36:13 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 One source of plastic that might make you feel better about using it is the scrap from lumber yards. Every load of lumber that comes in is covered with a heavy plastic that is almost all pitched into the dumpster. It is usually black on one side, white on the other. Though often in rough shape, many pieces of various lengths and widths can be found that are almost undamaged. Ask the folks at the yard and they will likely save the better ones back for you. We have used this material as a mulch, but more often as a substitute for those blue tarps that do not last nearly as long as the free stuff from the lumber yard. REUSE! Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: DGreen47@aol.com > To: csa-l@prairienet.org > Subject: Re: Intro and Quackgrass and plastic mulch > Date: Tuesday, April 13, 1999 6:46 AM > > Use of plastic is a personal choice and I didn't mean to imply any criticism > of organic farmers who choose to use it -- especially since most of them do > the extra work mentioned by Michelle of re-use and patching and using again. > > And I'm looking very seriously at one of those new plastic solar barns, and > my experiments re: alternatives to plastic are continuing. Some folks might > not be lucky enough to have as many rocks as I do -- I can pile them in > towers three feet high in my heat-loving plants' rows, plus lay them as a > mulch to suppress weeds. > > Channery silt loam, heavy on the channery. My cooperative extension guys > continue to marvel that I "make" anything grow here. Hey, seeds want to > grow. All I do is encourage them a little bit. And if we're going to > continue to pave over the accessible river bottom land and turn it into > WalMart parking lots, somebody had better figure out how to grow food on the > hills. > > Everybody's conditions and choices are different. Viva diversity! > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living > Corning, NY > > http://www.agrove.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 14 11:49:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21326 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02268 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06637; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:40:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06426 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:37:33 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dYYIa01910 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:36:43 EDT Subject: plastic To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Reply-To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id KAA06427 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Some members in our CSA are concerned about harmful chemicals and off-gassing in plastic mulch, so we don't use it. We use living mulch (Dutch clover) and straw instead. I have not been able to find much specific information on the topic of the harmful effects of platic mulch, but I'd rather play it safe. Heidi Lewis Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 14 22:36:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04818 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12573 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA08509; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:28:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08395 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:25:40 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.9) id dYEWa23591 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1a5382cc.2446a5fb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:16:27 EDT Subject: RE: plastic and living mulch To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Reply-To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id VAA08396 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 Hi Heidi, Could you tell me how you use living mulch, and which crops you use it with? I am a very small, very new, market gardener in DC and will be growing all kinds of leaf lettuce, heirloom tomatoes, tomatillios and a few herbs. Could I underseed the tomatoes with a live mulch? Thanks, Kelly Kelly, We use living mulch (usually Dutch clover) primarily in paths. I think you have to be careful not to let your living mulch use up too much of the precious moisture in the soil in the heat of the summer, especially with a crop like tomatoes. I have read about Virginia Cooperative Extension tests done using a cover crop of hairy vetch prior to planting certain crops (melons specifically, but vetch is great green manure for a tomato bed) the vetch is mowed down and serves as a mulch (as straw would.) Since it's also nitrogen-fixing, it could be dug into the soil along the tomato rows to add organic matterleaving the mowed vetch on the sides of the row for mulch. Anyway, I'm going to try it this year. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 15 20:01:32 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13739 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20109 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23658; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:52:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23564 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:51:53 -0500 (CDT) From: XOAXON@aol.com Received: from XOAXON@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dGZBa00659; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:50:03 EDT Subject: Re: csa vs. other farm sales To: DGreen47@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: XOAXON@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 Dear Mr. Green and all others who make up this list. My name is David Durick. For some time now I have had a website featuring articles from people on the land. The website has grown into much I had not anticipated. Now I have accumulated a little information and several requests from members of my list to put in a room on sustainable agriculture. I use information from those who are doing it mostly, and really could use the help of a few folks on this list. Maybe you could gain a few things too since a part of the site has to do with marketing. Right now I am transferring it to a new site, but everything works, I think. I don't want to spam anybody, but I would appreciate as many of you visiting as possible. I really do need the help. Thanx David Joseph Durick Fresno, Ca agrispec@aol.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 15 20:12:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13977 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22877 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA24779; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:03:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24735 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:03:42 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dHXTa25133 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5aa89a5a.2447d814@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:02:28 EDT Subject: So THAT'S the Problem! To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 When I approached somebody today about the CSA idea I got told in no uncertain terms that I shouldn't be expecting or asking people to finance _my_ gardening hobby. I didn't think to ask how it's okay for the supermarket to be paid for the food people buy, but for some reason it's not okay for me to be paid for delivering food. It's enough to make a farmer hope the comet falls and the supermarkets disappear and you can rock on your front porch surrounded by your burgeoning crop fields of open-pollinated food while these idiots crawl up begging for scraps. I didn't say all of my fantasies were pleasant ones. ;-( It's been a rough day. I've also got a neighbor who's decided to go after me via my livestock guardian dog, filing complaints with the dog warden because he barks at her kids when they walk by the farm throwing rocks at him. I've given them bags of dog biscuits to throw. I think they ate them. And a woman descended on me in a fury at the drug store today with "it's 60 degrees out and that poor dog is sitting in that car with all of the windows shut" (not true, the back window was open and my errand took a total of five minutes -- plus two more to listen to the tirade). The more I see of people, the better I like goats. Or maybe I should just decline to do any more Thursdays. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 15 21:11:56 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14716 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06610 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27771; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:57:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27710 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:57:18 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dVOFa07981 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <29948ff0.2447e432@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:54:10 EDT Subject: Re: csa vs. other farm sales To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 Not to be nit-picky, but if anybody wants me to visit their website I find it helpful to be supplied with the URL. Dori Green Hey, I stuck it out with Himself for 19 years -- I EARNED that title, durn it! If I'm being mistaken for a "Mr." maybe I'd better clean up and put the earrings back on (they came off for the baby goat season -- once in my life running at top speed bent over double alongside a buckling with a dangly pierced earring firmly in his toothy little grip is plenty for me). They don't mention that stuff in the "Have Fun With Backyard Goats" books, do they? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 15 22:25:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16605 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25151 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA02647; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:16:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02593 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA09803; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:15:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-68.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.68) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009745; Thu Apr 15 21:14:55 1999 Message-ID: <002001be87ae$ae934960$57fe6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: So THAT'S the Problem! Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:13:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 Yikes Dori pretty backbreaking hobby. Its easy for me to say since she didn't say that to me but guess you'll have to ingnore her, its her kind that has allowed industrialized farming to expand. And if you think about it the person who was so concerned about your dog suppose they'd like the conditions in say a confinement hog farm? Little tiny improvements in attitude thats what we are looking for. Remember its spring you have baby goats, and planting has begun...............my back aches and I am still looking forward to some more planting this week-end (the day jobs of the guys means we are a bit of week-end warriors). Beth >When I approached somebody today about the CSA idea I got told in no >uncertain terms that I shouldn't be expecting or asking people to finance >_my_ gardening hobby. I didn't think to ask how it's okay for the >supermarket to be paid for the food people buy, but for some reason it's not >okay for me to be paid for delivering food. > >It's enough to make a farmer hope the comet falls and the supermarkets >disappear and you can rock on your front porch surrounded by your burgeoning >crop fields of open-pollinated food while these idiots crawl up begging for >scraps. > >I didn't say all of my fantasies were pleasant ones. ;-( It's been a rough >day. I've also got a neighbor who's decided to go after me via my livestock >guardian dog, filing complaints with the dog warden because he barks at her >kids when they walk by the farm throwing rocks at him. I've given them bags >of dog biscuits to throw. I think they ate them. > >And a woman descended on me in a fury at the drug store today with "it's 60 >degrees out and that poor dog is sitting in that car with all of the windows >shut" (not true, the back window was open and my errand took a total of five >minutes -- plus two more to listen to the tirade). > >The more I see of people, the better I like goats. > >Or maybe I should just decline to do any more Thursdays. > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 11:07:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25154 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28936 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05404; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:59:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from m-5.i-link-2.net (root@m-5.i-link-2.net [206.129.152.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05265 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:58:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [206.129.152.144] (wormhole-a75.myhome.net [206.129.152.144]) by m-5.i-link-2.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA09714 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:57:59 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:58:46 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: "J. Eric & Karen A. Rains" Subject: irrigation Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Hi, we are setting up for irrigation this year and plan to put a field pump in our pond and use rain tape/soaker hoses. We are starting small this year (only using about 1/8 acre for the garden) And, like many farmers, our funds are limited. I am just curious as to what others are doing. Karen Rains J. Eric & Karen A. Rains Lacamas Lakes Ranch jnkrains@myhome.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 11:30:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25604 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05419 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07232; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:22:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07172 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:21:54 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dKPYa21075 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2ba60e9d.2448af27@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:20:07 EDT Subject: Trees! To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 << Remember its spring you have baby goats, and planting has begun.............. >> Last week the ground was still frozen here so plowing hasn't started yet. Just as I got home from my "Thursday from Hell" and started thinking what else might go wrong and deciding no, I didn't want to know, I found a UPS sticker on my front door. Oh goodie, those late herbs arrived! Uh uh. The Fedco trees for the SARE project are here, a full month early! Bare-root stock all, about 200 of them. I'm going to call the backhoe guy and see if he can dig out at couple of trenches so I can heel them in right away -- complicated by the fact that it's raining and he's a little leery about my field when it's wet (we almost lost a John Deere out there last year). If I can't convince him I guess I'll haul out my walking tractor, a shallow trench will be better than nothing. Engine start-up prayers to the deity of your choice are welcome. Anybody within driving distance want to celebrate Arbor Day with me this weekend??? I'll put on chicken soup and homemade bread and we'll have a party! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY Maps at http://www.agrove.com/location.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 15:20:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00622 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04760 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25677; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:11:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (xavier.ups.com [198.80.14.117]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25451 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:07:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/UPS) with ESMTP id PAA09874 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (smtp.field4.ups.com [153.2.2.62]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/UPS) with ESMTP id PAA09232; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with ESMTP id OAA26316; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nyc1cdb.ups.com ([10.20.227.50]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with SMTP id OAA26311; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002801be8833$90c9b380$32e3140a@nyc1cdb.ups.com> Reply-To: "Ann Sterling" From: "Ann Sterling" To: Cc: Subject: Re: Trees! Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:04:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 Hi Dori, That's a lot of trees, I wish I was in the area, and could come and lend a hand+ACE- What kinds are they? Fedco has great apples+ACE- I'm sending up a prayer for fine weather for your planting. My husband +ACY- I are dreaming about fleeing the Big City, and are only farming- wannabes so far, but someday we'll make it+ACE- Perhaps later this year we'll take a vaca upstate and drive by for a visit to see your operation that I have so enjoyed reading about, don't worry we'd call WAY in advance, as we are not ones to step on others' toes. Best wishes, Ann Sterling New York City. -----Original Message----- From: DGreen47+AEA-aol.com +ADw-DGreen47+AEA-aol.com+AD4- To: csa-l+AEA-prairienet.org +ADw-csa-l+AEA-prairienet.org+AD4- Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 11:27 AM Subject: Trees+ACE- +ADwAPA- Remember its spring you have baby goats, and planting has begun.............. +AD4APg- Last week the ground was still frozen here so plowing hasn't started yet. Just as I got home from my +ACI-Thursday from Hell+ACI- and started thinking what else might go wrong and deciding no, I didn't want to know, I found a UPS sticker on my front door. Oh goodie, those late herbs arrived+ACE- Uh uh. The Fedco trees for the SARE project are here, a full month early+ACE- Bare-root stock all, about 200 of them. I'm going to call the backhoe guy and see if he can dig out at couple of trenches so I can heel them in right away -- complicated by the fact that it's raining and he's a little leery about my field when it's wet (we almost lost a John Deere out there last year). If I can't convince him I guess I'll haul out my walking tractor, a shallow trench will be better than nothing. Engine start-up prayers to the deity of your choice are welcome. Anybody within driving distance want to celebrate Arbor Day with me this weekend??? I'll put on chicken soup and homemade bread and we'll have a party+ACE- Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm +ACY- Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY Maps at http://www.agrove.com/location.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 17:32:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03374 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18782 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA05855; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:22:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05744 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:21:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [144.92.244.222] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id QAA218714 (8.9.1/50); Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:21:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19990416161703.006bebc8@facstaff.wisc.edu> X-Sender: mrostrom@facstaff.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:17:03 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Marcy Ostrom Subject: Coordinator Position(s) for MACSAC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 Hi folks, Please pass on the following Madison Area CSA Coalition (MACSAC) position description to anyone you know that might be interested. Thanks, Marcy Ostrom Madison Area CSA Coalition mrostrom@facstaff.wisc.edu > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >MACSAC and PARTNER SHARES PROGRAM COORDINATORS POSITIONS > >The Madison Area Community Supported Agriculture Coalition (MACSAC) seeks >qualified individuals to work with MACSAC and the Partner Shares Program. >Each listed position will be 50% time. Candidates are encouraged to apply >for one or both positions as their skills and interests dictate. > >POSITION #1: MACSAC COORDINATOR > >ABOUT THE MADISON AREA CSA COALITION > >The Madison Area Community Supported Agriculture Coalition (MACSAC) was >formed in 1992 to develop a strong local network of community supported >farms. Comprised of farmers, community activists, and representatives of >organizations that support sustainable agriculture, the Coalition's work >focuses on the following four areas: > > Farmer collaboration, networking, and community building > Consumer education and outreach > Farmer support and education > Food-related social justice. > >MACSAC is currently hiring a permanent staff person to provide continuity >and administrative support to our largely volunteer organization, and to >work to further the goals and projects of the Coalition. > >LIST OF DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITITES > > Coordinate and recruit coalition volunteers > Maintain, develop, and distribute outreach materials > Plan and coordinate outreach events > Maintain and enhance relationships with media > Maintain and develop member communications > Plan and coordinate farmer education and events > Network with food system-related organizations > Manage program budget > Fundraising and grantwriting > >SKILLS AND BACKGROUND DESIRED > > Excellent interpersonal communication skills > Strong writing and public speaking skills > Ability to work independently, and as a team member > Ability to motivate and organize volunteers > Detail-oriented with strong organizational skills > Experience in working with print, broadcast and electronic media > Experience in non-profit fundraising and grantwriting > Familiarity and experience with sustainable agriculture and food >security issues > >POSITION #2: PARTNER SHARES PROGRAM COORDINATOR > >ABOUT THE PARTNER SHARES PROGRAM > >The Partner Shares Program (PSP) was established in 1997 as a project of >MACSAC, the Wisconsin Rural Development Center (WRDC), and the Hunger >Prevention Council of Dane County (HPC). Partner Shares links >lower-income households and supported-living households with a community >supported farm. Participating households receive a CSA share while paying >at a reduced rate. PSP work involves: > > Raising funds to provide scholarships to low-income households > Working with communities of faith to promote congregation supported >agriculture > Assisting participating households with negotiating CSA membership > Planning student and youth group farm-a-thons. > >LIST OF DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITITES > >The program coordinator is responsible for implementing the Partner Shares >Program in partnership with the steering committee. Duties include: > > Fund-raising and grant-writing for program administration and for >participant > scholarships > Identify individuals and organizations eligible for and desiring >participation in PSP > Link participating households with CSA farms > Provide support to participating households and CSA farms > Maintain, develop, and distribute outreach materials > Provide support and expand membership on the PSP steering committee > Manage program budget (with WRDC financial manager) > Network with interested communities of faith and religious >congregations > Plan and implement volunteer and fund-raising activities > Represent the program at events, conferences, and workshops > Network with other food system and food security organizations > Other activities as deemed appropriate > > SKILLS AND BACKGROUND DESIRED > > Excellent interpersonal communication skills > Strong writing and public speaking skills > Ability to work independently, and as a team member > Ability to motivate and organize volunteers > Detail-oriented with strong organizational skills > Experience in non-profit fundraising and grantwriting > Proven record in program management > Familiarity with sustainable agriculture and food security issues > Desire to expand the program to cover other aspects of >food-related social justice > >ADMINISTRATIVE DETAILS > >Annual salary will be the full-time equivalent of $24,000 to $27,000, >commensurate with experience. Paid holidays, sick and vacation time and a >cash health benefit are included. The staff person(s) will be housed at >the Wisconsin Rural Development Center. This is a one year position, with >the possibility of continued employment. > >APPLICATION PROCESS > >To apply, please send a resume and cover letter describing your skills, >interests and background to > >MACSAC >C/O Wisconsin Rural Development Center >4915 Monona Drive, Suite #304 >Monona, WI 53716 > >Applications must be postmarked by April 29, 1999 > > > Marcy Ostrom Program on Agricultural Technology Studies 1450 Linden Dr., Rm 146 UW-Madison Madison, WI 53706 608-265-3463 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 18:24:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04175 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01088 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10399; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:16:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10322 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:15:22 -0500 (CDT) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dYTKa16066; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:14:28 EDT Subject: Re: Trees! To: DGreen47@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Reply-To: JHatf18942@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 Hey we got Fedco trees today as well. It surprised me too. The ground here (Michigan's U.P.) never did get around to freezing, nice blanket of snow right into spring. I would be interested to hear more about your SARE project. Happy tree planting. Jeff Hatfield From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 19:29:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05074 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16403 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14139; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:20:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stinger.excite.com (stinger-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.220]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14025 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:19:55 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from batty.excite.com ([199.172.152.107]) by stinger.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990416231922.OKKP15757.stinger@batty.excite.com> for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:19:22 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Trees! Message-Id: <924304761.13919.34@excite.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:19:21 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 We (we being 3 of us) planted about 3000 over the last week at a couple of farms nearby us. This number is much much less impressive than it sounds as we had access to an old tobbacco planter and a small tractor. With this equipment and 3 to 4 people it is possible to plant around 2000 trees a day with ease. Last year we had 3.5 acres put into mixed hardwoods. Didn't get no grant for all this though-will have to look into such things as we have more acres to go over the next few years. Tomorrow it is supposed to rain but we are having a CSA worker orientation meeting anyhow-looks like everyone plans to attend. I happened to run into the whole membership (but 1) at the local co-op when we went to pick up a bulk order. We had bees arrive today and we hope to install them tomorrow during the orientation. Today the heavy rain and 40mph winds prevented installation. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 21:52:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06688 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14527 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08911; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:44:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08846 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:44:14 -0500 (CDT) From: XOAXON@aol.com Received: from XOAXON@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dQALa09991; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <94b78552.2449410f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:42:39 EDT Subject: Re: Trees! To: DGreen47@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: XOAXON@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 Dori I hope your day went well and safely. Mine went pretty well. Today, things are ending up where I hoped they would be when I invited you all to visit my site yesterday. Well, we all have plans I guess. Anyway, the site address is: http://www.angelfire.com/sd/ThreeCords/index.html or http://www.hotyellow98.com/threecords/index.html I hope you find it of interest. Thanks God Bless You and Yours. David J. Durick also at: agrispec@aol.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 16 23:52:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07903 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08620 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14886; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:44:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (jps.downlink.skycache.com [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14816 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:43:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (208-25-61-15.stk.jps.net [208.25.61.15]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA04021 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3717977B.2009D6B4@jps.net> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:03:08 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 I always have trouble with cucumber beetles on newly trasplanted or early summer squashes. I don't know for sure, but I may have found a solution. I scattered a thin line of wild bird food (millet, milo and sunflower seeds) down the row. The birds found it. I don't know if they are eating the beetles or scarring them away, but two days ago I had lots, and today I could only find a couple. Thought I'd pass it on. This was inspired by a friend of mine, an organic peach grower, who delt with the bird pecks in rip peaches by setting out lots of trays of bird food. He says the damage has decreased every year. They are full of seeds and nuts and leave the peaches alone. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 00:57:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08482 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18826 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA18368; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:49:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18300 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 23:49:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA12342; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:49:17 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:49:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Richard Roth cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash In-Reply-To: <3717977B.2009D6B4@jps.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 It is so nice to hear of cucumbers when it is still so cold up north...I always thought birds either ate seed or insects (in theory) but I also think they are curious beings and if a beetle was nearby they would at least try it, even if they didn't eat it! Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Richard Roth wrote: > I always have trouble with cucumber beetles on newly trasplanted or > early summer squashes. I don't know for sure, but I may have found a > solution. > > I scattered a thin line of wild bird food (millet, milo and sunflower > seeds) down the row. The birds found it. I don't know if they are eating > the beetles or scarring them away, but two days ago I had lots, and > today I could only find a couple. > > Thought I'd pass it on. > > This was inspired by a friend of mine, an organic peach grower, who delt > with the bird pecks in rip peaches by setting out lots of trays of bird > food. He says the damage has decreased every year. They are full of > seeds and nuts and leave the peaches alone. > > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 01:59:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09021 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA00148 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA21738; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:51:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21670 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:50:51 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id aTRLa03719; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:49:23 EDT Subject: Re: Growing corn in the PNW: To: holderj@cc.wwu.edu, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 Hi Jennifer, Its aways a challenge to grow corn in the Pacific Northwest where it takes four and a half months to collect the BTUs necessary to fill a cob. We buy short season sweet seeds. But don't expect them to finish in the 90 days promised in the catalog. We start our corn in 128 flats the first week of May under lights indoors. By the 1st of June they are about five inches tall when we transplant them out onto raised beds at 12 inch centers with drip irrigation. Mulch the beds with 1.5 inches of finished dark compost. Foliar feed the corn once a week. (Have used Humax and Maxicrop in the past but find that a good aerobic compost tea helps much more.) By the middle of July I underplant the corn beds with common vetch. The vetch provides nitrogen to the mycorhizal fungi that feed the corn roots. In addition, it holds up the corn when the September winds blow in and prevents lodging just as its ripening. Bean plants haven't proven very effective as an understory for me. Also, you have to consider that since the corn is stealing nitrogen from the legume via the mycorhizal fungi the beans can't produce as well as they could in their own bed. Personally, I hate growing corn. It takes up too much space and nutrient for very little food. However, the shocks make great compost. Since most of my CSA subscribers expect it with their tomatoes, I plant just enough to get by every year and hope for some warm weeks in August. I don't encourage anyone west of the Cascades to grow corn but these techniques will help you manage a decent crop. I wish Americans could get used to eating foods that grow well in their region. But good wishes don't sell CSA subscriptions. Good luck...... Art Biggert << I read an old e-mail on the praire net listserv where you discussed your experiences with growing corn in the PNW. I have a plot at school in the PNW and having been trying to find area specific info in hopes to do a three sisters project there. >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 02:23:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09166 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA04494 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA22591; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:15:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA22507 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:14:22 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dRPFa00664 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <192759d7.24498043@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:12:19 EDT Subject: More Beetle Control To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 Same kind of idea, works for squash and potatoes for me -- In every flock of chickens, there's one hen who scouts out the good hunting and calls the others for the feast. I scout my fields and when I spot a bug problem, I catch "Hecate" and toss her into the problem area. Within a few minutes I've got twenty chickens lowering my feed bill and taking care of the bugs. It's a little bit noisy and doesn't work for tomatoes or strawberries, where those durned birds have to take one peck out of each fruit, but it's organic! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 07:50:11 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA10756 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27093 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA28765; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:42:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28706 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:41:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mycp.tdsnet.com (buwiusr0-a32.bbw.tds.net [208.137.65.224]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA12693 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:41:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002501be88c6$db948b40$e04189d0@mycp.tdsnet.com> Reply-To: "Marv Hughes" <@mail.tds.net> From: "Marv Hughes" To: Subject: Farm Opportunity Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 06:38:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE889C.F0730CA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE889C.F0730CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm looking for a tennant to live and work a small farm in south central = Wisconson (approx 20 miles south, south west of the Wisconson Dells). = The farm will be worked under organic and biodynamic principles, will be = used to grow medicinal herbs and other crops the tennant wishes to raise = (percentage of profits to be shared with tennant). The rent will be free = in turn for the farm work and house fix up/repairs. The house is not in = the best of shape but if you enjoy farming , seclusion and can't afford = you own farm this could be a win/win for both owner and tennant. For = more information please send me an email with your background and = farming experience. =20 Marv Hughes Badger Botanical Farms =20 hughesm@BBW.TDS.NET =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE889C.F0730CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm looking for a tennant to live = and work a=20 small farm in south central Wisconson (approx 20 miles south, south west = of the=20 Wisconson Dells). The farm will be worked under organic and biodynamic=20 principles, will be used to grow medicinal herbs and other crops the = tennant=20 wishes to raise (percentage of profits to be shared with tennant). The = rent will=20 be free in turn for the farm work and house fix up/repairs.  The = house is=20 not in the best of shape but if you enjoy farming , seclusion and can't = afford=20 you own farm this could be a win/win for both owner and tennant.  = For more=20 information please send me an email with your background and farming=20 experience.
 
Marv Hughes
Badger Botanical=20 Farms   
hughesm@BBW.TDS.NET
 
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01BE889C.F0730CA0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 12:25:32 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12657 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15710 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08582; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:16:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08101 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:02:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.74.111 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:01:30 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: "Richard Roth" , Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:29:13 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0c9e33001161149CPIMSSMTPU09@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 >I scattered a thin line of wild bird food (millet, milo and sunflower >seeds) down the row. The birds found it. I don't know if they are eating >the beetles or scarring them away, but two days ago I had lots, and >today I could only find a couple. > >Thought I'd pass it on. > >This was inspired by a friend of mine, an organic peach grower, who delt >with the bird pecks in rip peaches by setting out lots of trays of bird >food. He says the damage has decreased every year. They are full of >seeds and nuts and leave the peaches alone. The intelligence of some humans indeed surpasses that of birds ..... ;-) ..... Now why didn't *I* think of that ??? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 12:25:32 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12658 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15711 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08657; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:17:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08214 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:04:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 208.253.74.111 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:04:15 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: "Mary Manson" , "Richard Roth" , Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:32:06 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <056591504161149CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 >>I scattered a thin line of wild bird food (millet, milo and sunflower >>seeds) down the row. The birds found it. I don't know if they are eating >>the beetles or scarring them away, but two days ago I had lots, and >>today I could only find a couple. >> >>Thought I'd pass it on. >> >>This was inspired by a friend of mine, an organic peach grower, who delt >>with the bird pecks in rip peaches by setting out lots of trays of bird >>food. He says the damage has decreased every year. They are full of >>seeds and nuts and leave the peaches alone. > > >The intelligence of some humans indeed surpasses that of birds ..... ;-) >Now why didn't *I* think of that ??? Of course, now that I'm thinking ..... maybe some water, too, and then they'd just have peaches for dessert ? LOL now .... sorry about this - sometimes I do get giddy ..... From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 13:12:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13090 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26418 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11277; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:04:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11232 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:04:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904171704.MAA11232@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 350143990; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:04:30 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , "J. Eric & Karen A. Rains" Subject: Re: irrigation Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:02:10 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 We irrigate all of our raised beds (1/2 acre+) with drip irrigation. Since we are pumping water (and doing all other electrical stuff) with renewable energy (solar and wind) drip irrigation was our only real choice, but it is a happy one for the gardens as well. We got most of our supplies from a local irrigation supply house, but DRIPWORKS has a great inventory and the staff there is real helpful. About my only complaint with drip is for the first week or so after small transplants go into a bed. The "root zone" watering that drip does so well just doesn't make it for those little guys with their short roots and delicate nature. We often supplement with some hand watering for just a while as they get established. Or leave the drip going long enough to saturate the whole surface of the ground. Another caution about drip: it sometimes seems, during a really dry time, that the plants just can't be getting enough water. We usually run any given line for about 1 hour twice a week...and it really IS enough. Trust it, but keep an eye on the plants as well. We have two kinds of drip line: a T-tape, higher quality (can't remember specifics) with emitters that self-clean and work well year after year. And the stuff they had left over, found in a corner of the warehouse at the local irrigation place. It was really cheap, and not worth it. Tends to break, split, plug up, water less evenly than the better stuff...get the good line. "Buy the best and only cry once." The expense is not all that high, and the benefits are worth it. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: J. Eric & Karen A. Rains > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Subject: irrigation > Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:58 AM > > Hi, we are setting up for irrigation this year and plan to put a field pump > in our pond and use rain tape/soaker hoses. We are starting small this year > (only using about 1/8 acre for the garden) And, like many farmers, our > funds are limited. > > I am just curious as to what others are doing. > > Karen Rains > > J. Eric & Karen A. Rains > Lacamas Lakes Ranch > jnkrains@myhome.net > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 15:59:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14662 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08263 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18640; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:51:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18578 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:50:39 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dHDa016068 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <78f1d7e8.244a3fb0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:49:04 EDT Subject: Re: Trees! To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 Just another 50 or so trees to heel in. Backhoe guy can't get here until next Tuesday, plow guy doesn't want to go on the field in the rain (can't blame him, we nearly lost his big John Deere out there last year, it would have been sucked down into the clay if it wasn't for the rocks). Gee, it looked drier than that on the top. Planted one contorted willow and thanked my deities that I only ordered four of them; the other three are packed in wet sawdust in the wheelbarrow that's now named "Lucille" for its tire -- "You picked a fine time to go flat, Lucille...." The tap root on those puppies is about three feet and they're almost seven feet tall. Called the rental place and reserved a one-person post auger for next weekend. In loose tree berms it should work like a champ. If I manage to recruit some help we can take turns, otherwise I should be able to take care of all the trees and post holes for the front and side yard all by myself. I've got 150 locust posts from that wonderful day a few years ago when we got an income tax refund and decided to spend it on the farm. A roll of woven fence and Ragnar will be Busted, no more jogger-chasing. And there will be two more rescues from the meat processor, a couple of colored lambs named "Lawn" and "Mower". They can keep him company in the side yard and everybody should be happy -- lambs, Rags, and neighbors. Lightning and sleet drove me back inside for a little while, but it's stopped now. Quick cup of coffee and it's back out to the planting wars. I'll sleep good tonight! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 17 16:51:30 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15051 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19736 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA20788; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:43:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20727 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:42:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D8FD678B; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:42:15 EDT To: DGreen47@aol.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:21:54 -0400 Subject: Re: Trees! Message-ID: <19990417.163727.-393791.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 Where did you get the contorted willows, Dori? Betsy Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 18 00:50:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19145 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00231 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA13582; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:42:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13536 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:42:18 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dMNJa26022 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 00:41:25 EDT Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 Richard, I wrote an article on pest control using Layer hens in chicken tractors that will appear in the "Growing For Market" May issue. The domestic birds perform the same gratuitous chore with asparagus beetles, Colorado potato beetles, slugs, etc. Their byproducts are fertilizer, eggs and meat. The trick to sustainable agriculture is to observe who eats what and ensure that all are fed. Each life balances the other in both a community and a marriage. Best regards, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm << The birds found it. I don't know if they are eating the beetles or scarring them away, but two days ago I had lots, and today I could only find a couple. >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 18 09:34:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24184 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16529 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26747; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26687 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:25:20 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dAEPa16066 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:24:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5755d64a.244b36fe@aol.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:24:14 EDT Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 Kevin, I describe in the article how I train my livestock to become aggressive hunters. I have also found that some breads are naturally more aggressive than others. They prefer the tater beetle eggs and larva over the adult. Again, prevention is so much easier and less expensive than treatment. Timing and attentive observation are key factors.... Art Biggert << When i tried to feed colorado tater beetles which I had picked off the plants to our chickens they ignored them. Are you SURE they're eating them?>> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 18 11:11:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25455 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02196 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29665; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:02:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from relay.batnet.com (relay1.batnet.com [204.188.144.18]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29614 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:02:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from heimdallr by relay.batnet.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA29904; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:02:13 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19990418150601.00313040@pop.batnet.com> X-Sender: beauty@pop.batnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:06:01 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Loren Davidson Subject: Re: Cucumber Beetles on Summer Squash Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 At 09:24 AM 4/18/99 EDT, SCook21809@aol.com wrote: >Kevin, > I describe in the article how I train my livestock to become >aggressive hunters. I have also found that some breads are naturally more >aggressive than others. They prefer the tater beetle eggs and larva over the >adult. Hmmm...here I am, attempting to envision aggressive beetle egg bread....does it bite the knife that cuts it? Muscle its way out of the bread box? Push silverware off the table? And do the beetle eggs give it more protein? Loren, who may switch to free-range breads....:) -- Loren Davidson Permaculturist, poet, philosopher loren@wombat.net http://www.batnet.com/beauty/ "Follow your dreams. Make your wishes. Create the future. And above all, believe in yourself." -- J. Michael Straczynski From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 18 12:18:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26111 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15206 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02069; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:09:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02005 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:09:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.8.149.218] [198.69.131.212] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A48B2C70100; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:12:59 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1287670698==_ma============" Message-Id: Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:09:14 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Deer and dill Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 --============_-1287670698==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Last time I brought up the subject of deer deterrence I received a number of good ideas but now I would like people's experience with plants that keep the deer away. Last year we had a really bad deer problem and spent an inordinate amount of time working on deterrence (nothing seemed to work for more than a couple weeks before the deer figured it out). This year looks like it will be even worse than last. I have seen larger than normal bands of the rodents running through the woods. Last year they were particular devastating to the potatoes and peppers. Potatoes -they ate the plants to the ground, peppers - they ate the tops with the buds. One of the strategies we used last year was to spread the 800 pepper plants we set out all over the garden, with the theory that they couldn't find them all. This theory proved wrong, or at least mostly wrong. It doesn't take but two or three deer to rape a pepper crop in one night, but they did miss two areas. One was the plants up by the barn with the dogs and livestock, the other was the plants put out next to the dill. The plants near the dogs is easily explainable, but the dill? Does this mean that deer don't like the smell of dill or does it mean that dill masks the smell of peppers and the deer can't find the peppers? Are there other crops like this? If the deer hate the smell of dill would growing dill around the edge of the garden work the same way pouring a rotten egg/water mixture work, only more permanently because the dill plants don't wash away with the rain? How many dill plants would it take to deter the deer if in fact it is a deterrence? Anyway, if anyone has experience with plants that repel deer I would like to hear from you. Oh, and if you are just speculating, please say so. Untested ideas are not worth nearly as much as experience and should be labeled as such. --============_-1287670698==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Last time I brought up the subject of deer deterrence I received a number of good ideas but now I would like people's experience with plants that keep the deer away. Last year we had a really bad deer problem and spent an inordinate amount of time working on deterrence (nothing seemed to work for more than a couple weeks before the deer figured it out). This year looks like it will be even worse than last. I have seen larger than normal bands of the rodents running through the woods. Last year they were particular devastating to the potatoes and peppers. Potatoes -they ate the plants to the ground, peppers - they ate the tops with the buds. One of the strategies we used last year was to spread the 800 pepper plants we set out all over the garden, with the theory that they couldn't find them all. This theory proved wrong, or at least mostly wrong. It doesn't take but two or three deer to rape a pepper crop in one night, but they did miss two areas. One was the plants up by the barn with the dogs and livestock, the other was the plants put out next to the dill. The plants near the dogs is easily explainable, but the dill? Does this mean that deer don't like the smell of dill or does it mean that dill masks the smell of peppers and the deer can't find the peppers? Are there other crops like this? If the deer hate the smell of dill would growing dill around the edge of the garden work the same way pouring a rotten egg/water mixture work, only more permanently because the dill plants don't wash away with the rain? How many dill plants would it take to deter the deer if in fact it is a deterrence? Anyway, if anyone has experience with plants that repel deer I would like to hear from you. Oh, and if you are just speculating, please say so. Untested ideas are not worth nearly as much as experience and should be labeled as such. --============_-1287670698==_ma============-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 18 14:33:51 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27955 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17545 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 14:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08425; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:18:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from peak.org (denisont@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08298 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:16:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (denisont@localhost) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with SMTP id LAA27711; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:16:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Denison X-Sender: denisont@kira To: Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org, "J. Eric & Karen A. Rains" Subject: Re: irrigation In-Reply-To: <199904171704.MAA11232@firefly.prairienet.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 We have been using drip tape since 1978, and agree that T-tape seems to work the best. In our climate (Corvallis, Oregon) 2hours/week/line would not be enough water for much of the season. We use 8mil 12" high flow T-tape, 1 line per bed. Our beds are on 5' centers and 300'long. 13 hours @ 8psi gives 1 acre inch of water. We can get 1or2 inches of evapotranspiration per week in the summer, depending on temp. and humidity. So we run our lines approx. 13 to 26 hrs per week. 8" emitter spacing, or lines closer than 5' appart would supply more galons per hour, so you would run your system less time per week. The tradeoff is you need more total flow to run your system. 8" spacing is great if your water source can handle it. Northwest Irrigation hare in Albany OR (541)928-0114 can supply tape, fittings, and design assistance. Irrigation-Mart in Ruston, LA (800) 729-7246 is another good source we have used, though I don't know how they are with smaller farms. Good luck with your project. Tom On Sat, 17 Apr 1999, Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: > We irrigate all of our raised beds (1/2 acre+) with drip irrigation. Since > we are pumping water (and doing all other electrical stuff) with renewable > energy (solar and wind) drip irrigation was our only real choice, but it is > a happy one for the gardens as well. We got most of our supplies from a > local irrigation supply house, but DRIPWORKS has a great inventory and the > staff there is real helpful. About my only complaint with drip is for the > first week or so after small transplants go into a bed. The "root zone" > watering that drip does so well just doesn't make it for those little guys > with their short roots and delicate nature. We often supplement with some > hand watering for just a while as they get established. Or leave the drip > going long enough to saturate the whole surface of the ground. > > Another caution about drip: it sometimes seems, during a really dry time, > that the plants just can't be getting enough water. We usually run any > given line for about 1 hour twice a week...and it really IS enough. Trust > it, but keep an eye on the plants as well. > > We have two kinds of drip line: a T-tape, higher quality (can't remember > specifics) with emitters that self-clean and work well year after year. And > the stuff they had left over, found in a corner of the warehouse at the > local irrigation place. It was really cheap, and not worth it. Tends to > break, split, plug up, water less evenly than the better stuff...get the > good line. "Buy the best and only cry once." > > The expense is not all that high, and the benefits are worth it. > Jo and Jim > "The Community Farm" newsletter > A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture > http://www.gks.com/TCF/ > > ---------- > > From: J. Eric & Karen A. Rains > > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > > Subject: irrigation > > Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 10:58 AM > > > > Hi, we are setting up for irrigation this year and plan to put a field > pump > > in our pond and use rain tape/soaker hoses. We are starting small this > year > > (only using about 1/8 acre for the garden) And, like many farmers, our > > funds are limited. > > > > I am just curious as to what others are doing. > > > > Karen Rains > > > > J. Eric & Karen A. Rains > > Lacamas Lakes Ranch > > jnkrains@myhome.net > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 19 10:30:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11191 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14075 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA29522; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:20:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29429 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:19:28 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id dJNUa16068 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <60a3669e.244c952b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:18:19 EDT Subject: Re: Deer and dill To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 Hey Leigh, The question I want answered is who got to name that animal? I think I would use a four letter word too. But not Deer! Those pests can smell their favorite blossoms from five miles away. I call roses and evening primrose deer bait. They will come to a garden of these delights even during hunting season. We have found that a eucalyptus hedge masks the smell of the pea and pepper blossoms in our fields. They aren't supposed to grow here but we can keep them going for about 8 years before a hard freeze kills all of them. We replant some every year. Some years we replant all of them. They do something to the soil though that makes it impossible to grow anything else there. So pick your site carefully and keep them off your growing areas. We keep about 24 trees going around our two acre site and it helps a lot. We also have an electric fence baited with peanut butter to zap the few that happen to pass by the neighborhood. A 5,000 volt shock in the mouth with the appetizer makes them reconsider the splendor of the main course. This year I'm adding the protection of a thick and tall hedgerow around the perimeter. There will be the blooms for them on the outside and the electric fence on the inside. I doubt that there is one action or trick that will always work. We are talking biology here. And biology always adapts. Deer are neophobic. They shy away from new smells and terrain changes. But once they notice the change doesn't have an uncomfortable effect on their being, they go about their business as usual. I believe there are things we can do to tilt the food web in our favor. But we have to use a multifaceted approach. Good luck, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 19 12:29:57 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13405 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15554 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA09233; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:19:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from entoo.connect.com.au (entoo.connect.com.au [192.189.54.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09164 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:19:17 -0500 (CDT) From: newsdesk@australianinvestor.com.au Received: from dialup.optusnet.com.au (kenny53.zip.com.au [61.8.18.181]) by entoo.connect.com.au with SMTP id CAA14287 (8.8.8/IDA-1.7 for ); Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:19:03 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:19:03 +1000 (EST) To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Your April Issue is now online Organization: The Australian Investor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=_9wPPRW7EKE" Message-Id: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=_9wPPRW7EKE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.australianinvestor.com.au Dear Reader The Australian Investor cordially invites you to peruse our online finance and investment magazine for the asia-pacific region. 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DYYwdigTPeQxpdtL5DQ2TuZXzQQmjeXCd9IXWOLLqWUWMlZZU9HW71pksVHXVpAG5Gca7eey +FNNbiK63iROEiQyPmLNmTW6NuSASurLd6KQ4jzDhDJDM/skb6GkM8sIXXEkAwgEZfADQEAH QUAHKBAEQTAEZ7AGaIAGDHAGddBe2CDTDoIAKmBSl4YRZ0hSXGAQG3AEXHsEwQLRD83QEZ0C W8gA1H7W0D1tBEswDGCcBHTUEisCUczAhWowtvxMDdmgeJHMIQoQECmgAlsgDBGNA8TdK7pi pg7tBG1aBSrgxV2sAGD4EfOFMRowLmMq27ItDXkpLy0xaSxyE5CZ1Zq5hkUYI8fADigABGTw NJTBS0YW2Nc0TX1ty4gR4cksQra6WAZIT3Rd168pQ7fnMsCcQhxu4ZcVsW9yWYlYTOKc2dsk gDEGCT5CJbLsgHnFMivmJTNeJ2ttY1CjMnvB4ze+fWRN4kkeQ5IRCAA7 --=_9wPPRW7EKE-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Apr 19 14:05:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15481 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08222 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA24773; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:55:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ramses.lu.se (ramses.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24688 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:55:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (luetnfs.etn.lu.se [130.235.150.159]) by ramses.lu.se (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA23261 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:56:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from LUETNFS/SpoolDir by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.21); 19 Apr 99 20:07:49 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUETNFS (Mercury 1.30); 19 Apr 99 20:07:24 +0100 Received: from humecol.lu.se by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 19 Apr 99 20:07:17 +0100 Message-ID: <371B68B7.C2AF84E9@humecol.lu.se> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:32:40 +0200 From: Folke =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Community supported, Agriculture" Subject: Deer and dill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id MAA24690 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 In Africa, they use a feature called a 'surprise fence' against elephants, rhinoceros and the like. Perhaps it also works against deers. It consists of a ditch, one side slooping towards the land that should be fenced. Then it ends up with a steep side. The animals moving in will find themselves facing a wall, and they goes to another place instead of trying to climb the wall. Of course it is a heavy work to make the fence, but they don't wither very fast. The height if the steep side (or the depth of the ditch) is adapted to the type of animal that should be fenced out. For a deer Ishould think 7-9 ft is needed. For elephants deeper ditches are needed. FG -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Gnther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievgen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm --- This message is written with 100% recycled electrons. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 20 21:56:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19100 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06186 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA02878; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:44:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA02723 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:42:35 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (8039) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id sCDUa03465; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:41:24 EDT Subject: Re: Growing corn in the PNW: To: Pat_Elazar@cwb.ca, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 Hi Pat, VAM Fungi are invited into the roots of corn plants. The corn exchanges surgars for nutrients and minerals from the fungi. A conversation between the plants might sound like, "Come into my root. I have chocolate cake for you. Are you hungry little fungi?" The fungi moves into the root and builds a nest (arbucle) in the root. Then the corn plant says,"Gee, if you want more chocolate cake you will have to find some groceries for me. I need Boron and a little nitrogen. When you bring that to me I'll give you more cake." Now the fungi sends out its hypha, a long filament with enzymes that can obtain and transport the desired nutrient to the corn plant. And they continue exchanging nutrients for a very happy and symbiotic relationship. If for some reason the fungi can not find the nutrient the corn plant wants, the corn plant stops the exudate flow that feeds the fungi. This relationship makes the nitrogen in the nodules on the vetch available to the corn via the VAM Fungi. Its important that the vetch does not go to seed until the corn has matured. Because all of that nitrogen will then go into the new vetch seed and leave the corn and fungi hungry. Isn't this amazing? In order to encourage VAM fungal growth, I mulch with compost on top of the soil being careful not to turn it into the soil. This inhibits weeds as well as decreasing watering needs and supports fungal growth. This technique is multiply symbiotic. Our rotation following corn and vetch is chard and kale (brassica). Brassicas create strong bacterially mediated soils. They inhibit fungal growth. So I use compost teas to encourage soil microbes that will help the chard and kale. No pest can survive in such dynamic conditions. My tilth, water holding capacity and drainage improve every year. Try it, you'll like it. Let us know how your crop turns out this year. Best regards, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm << Here in suburban Winnipeg (465mi nw of Minneapolis), we've only had to resort to starting sweet corn in flats in 1992 & "93". I was intrigued by your intercroping corn with common vetch for N fixing symbiosis: 1) Is the N available to the corn during the growing season, or only after the vetch is incorporated? 2) What is your rotation after corn/vetch? (I normally follow corn with tomatoes, but I think I would want to follow vetch incorporation with garlic or Brassica....) >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 21 09:01:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26088 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24524 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA29490; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:51:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alpha.vaxxine.com (alpha.vaxxine.com [209.5.212.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29361 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:50:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pc.vaxxine.com (ppp102.digi-t3.st-cath.niagara.net [209.5.215.102]) by alpha.vaxxine.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28178 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990421084827.007dcbb0@vaxxine.com> X-Sender: laura_s@vaxxine.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:48:27 -0400 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" From: Laura Sabourin Subject: helper/apprentice needed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 I'm looking for someone to start pretty well now :-) would appreciate it if list members could forward this to anyone who may be interested: Feast of Fields - Biodynamically certified Organic Farm We are looking for a helper/apprentice for the 1999 growing season. Our 50 acre farm is located in the beautiful Niagara region of Ontario. We have a vineyard, a 50 family CSA garden, fruit trees, and some animals. During the season we also host wwoofers who provide invalueable additional farm support. The person we are looking for will have a keen interest in organic growing, the ability to work with farm equipment, a valid drivers license and a positive happy outlook. Our season starts now and we will require help until late September/mid October. We will provide on farm accomodation, healthy meals and renumeration based on CSA profits. To learn more about our farm please visit: http://www.ragdolls.net/farm.htm and follow the links to pages about our csa, vineyard and critters. Interested applicants please email farm@ragdolls.net or call 905-562-0151 Laura Sabourin Feast of Fields Inc Biodynamically Certified Organic Farm http://www.ragdolls.net/farm.eht Ragenesque Ragdoll Cattery http://www.ragdolls.net/ragenesq.htm R R # 1 St Catharines, Ontario L2R 6P7 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 21 18:53:57 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10286 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13579 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15983; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:42:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (root@eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15863 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:41:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from holly.ColoState.EDU (holly.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.76]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22342; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:41:01 -0600 Received: from localhost (egbelsey@localhost) by holly.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA750496; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:41:00 -0600 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:41:00 -0600 (MDT) From: Eric Belsey To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: Pat_Elazar@cwb.ca, csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Growing corn in the PNW: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 I'm very intrigued by encouraging mycorrhizae in annual crops, particularly our popular "heavy" feeders- corn, squash, tomatoes. Art- I've seen mycorrhizae advertised for sale in Peaceful Valley Farm Supply- have you used this inoculant? have any other growers? Does it help, or is home growing them as Art describes just as effective or more effective? (keeping inputs on-farm as much as possible?) One of my potential business plans is providing super healthy Biodynamic transplants for many of these crops which are popular and routinely transplanted in Colorado- tomatoes, squash, cucumbers, perhaps lettuces... Could these transplants be inoculated with mycorrhizae and give backyard-scale gardeners surprising improvements in yield, disease resistance, etc. over the garden center (garden variety) transplants? thanks--- Eric Belsey From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Apr 22 01:56:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22006 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27500 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA14039; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:49:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13979 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:48:21 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (14419) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dADBa03465 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:46:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:46:57 EDT Subject: Re:Another shameless plug: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Reply-To: SCook21809@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 Gee Eric, you've pegged me. Keeping inputs on farm or from the community where the farm resides is my obsession. No, I have never purchased mycorrhizae inoculant. If I had sick or dead soils, I surely would consider it though. I have learned how to tilt composting materials to encourage aerobic bacterially mediated soil for annuals or fungally mediated soil for perennials. Since corn is in the grass family, I consider it a perenial like tomato plants. For specific details on composting methods and soil inoculants, I refer you once again to Growing For Market sometime this summer. An important consideration when purchasing inoculant is its survivability in your micro-climate. Will inoculant from the hot and dry plains of Kansas survive and perform in the rainy and cool Pacific NorthWest? You can be assured that if I grow an inoculant in my compost pile it will perform well. << Art- I've seen mycorrhizae advertised for sale in Peaceful Valley Farm Supply- have you used this inoculant? have any other growers? Does it help, or is home growing them as Art describes just as effective or more effective? (keeping inputs on-farm as much as possible?) For three years in a row I have arrested phytophera (blight) on both tomato and potato. Downy mildew on squash is no longer a problem for my cool damp growing season. All of my experience is based on imperical and anecdotal "experiments". But, Elaine Ingham,PhD from Oregon State University (soilfoodweb.com) is doing real science research along these lines. Because she must maintain an objective outlook until she completes multiple trials with multiple controls before her results can be published, she isn't saying much. But check out her website anyway. Read what she has already published and you may figure out how to treat those transplants to improve the yields and disease resistance over garden center transplants. <> My favorite organic chemistry professor taught from the perspective of "I've got a secret. I hope you are clever enough to discover it." I find that perspective works for complex subjects. There is no silver bullet. But, when you understand the dynamic synergies, you'll always have a good answer. Good luck, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 23 15:30:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10251 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25104 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17876; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:20:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17710 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:17:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB203-20.splitrock.net [209.252.100.66]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA126194 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:17:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199904231917.PAA126194@pimout2-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: "CSA List" Subject: csa in yellow springs ohio Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 15:15:39 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 hi, friends. i thought i saw a post within the last couple of months from somebody who was starting a csa in yellow springs ohio. if you're out there, please send me info about your csa. i have friends in yellow springs who want to join our csa, but you are a heckuva lot closer and we ought to be helping each other! thanks. noreen From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 23 18:27:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13476 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11488 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03162; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03093 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:17:31 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14453) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dNNQa08200 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:12:27 EDT Subject: Wish Me Luck! To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 Taking part as a vendor in an "Expo" at the Parent Resource Center tomorrow. It's been raining here for three days and it's going down to 20F tonight so visiting with people with two of the baby goats in the dog pen next to my table -- indoors -- seems like a better way to spend the day than slogging through the mud where all I'll accomplish is turning clay into cement. Sigh. I've been trying to get in to this event and an "in" with this group for ten years. This could be a huge step forward and I could come home with a hundred new members! I'll figure out what to do with them once I've got them. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com PS -- haven't heard for several days from the would-be 50% farm partner who was so gung-ho last week. Last word was that he wanted to move in next week. I guess my experiences these past few years have led me to expect nothing from people, then it's a wonderful surprise if they actually come through with action that meets their promises. Stranger things have happened! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Apr 23 19:32:34 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14292 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26981 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07189; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:24:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07126 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:23:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA03746; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:22:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2-220.ix.netcom.com(209.110.255.220) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003725; Fri Apr 23 18:22:44 1999 Message-ID: <02ae01be8de0$06016ce0$33f96ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Wish Me Luck! Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:21:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 Mucho good luck! Please let us know how it goes. We are going to be in an Expo as well. How are you planning to set up your table, your display? The goats are great. Don't think we'll have any cute animal to take with us. Although a Highland calf would get attention. We are "investing" are first amount above 20 bucks in an advertisment to be printed next Friday in a local free newspaper (its free sent to all households in about 4 towns so its circulation is good), the add wasn't free of course :). So now we feel like is "anyone going to call, oh know what if hundreds call" how many do we accept? Think I'll plant some more seeds in my living room tomorrow, it looks more like a greenhouse than a living room. Good Good luck, Beth >Taking part as a vendor in an "Expo" at the Parent Resource Center tomorrow. >It's been raining here for three days and it's going down to 20F tonight so >visiting with people with two of the baby goats in the dog pen next to my >table -- indoors -- seems like a better way to spend the day than slogging >through the mud where all I'll accomplish is turning clay into cement. Sigh. > >I've been trying to get in to this event and an "in" with this group for ten >years. This could be a huge step forward and I could come home with a >hundred new members! > >I'll figure out what to do with them once I've got them. > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com > >PS -- haven't heard for several days from the would-be 50% farm partner who >was so gung-ho last week. Last word was that he wanted to move in next week. > I guess my experiences these past few years have led me to expect nothing >from people, then it's a wonderful surprise if they actually come through >with action that meets their promises. Stranger things have happened! > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 24 09:08:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20134 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00276 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA06401; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:59:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA06340 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 07:59:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.129.59 (sa-165-227-129-59.cruzio.com [165.227.129.59]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id FAA28468 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37215108.53CE@mariquita.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:05:12 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: new member bio Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 We are Mariquita Farm: Andy Griffin and Julia Wiley. We have a 200 member CSA in central California; We currently grow on about 30 acres in and around Watsonville. Andy has been farming (organically) for 20 years; Julia is busy keeping the CSA customers in line and keeping them happy. The biggest daily challenge we currently face is how to farm and raise our two children: ages 2 and 4. -- --------------------------------------------------- Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables (831)761-3226 e-mail: csa@mariquita.com web site: http://www.mariquita.com P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 --------------------------------------------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Apr 24 18:42:55 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24714 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07229 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA28900; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:33:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28840 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:31:55 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14365) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dEMLa08724 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <859c47d1.24539ff2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:30:10 EDT Subject: Early Childhood Expo Results To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Reply-To: DGreen47@aol.com Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Met some nice people, sold three boxes of tea ($9), bought two bags of glitteries to add to candles ($4), took two orders for two pounds each of moldable soap ($8), several people said they would come up for a visit including two preschool groups at $20 per group of 20 rather than $3 per person (now THAT will be an Experience, I'll take the little guys out on the trails with the goat herd), and a couple of people said they would join at least as basic farm members ($25 per year). One or two might come through later as garden co-op (CSA) members ($200 per season). All in all, I'd say it was a useful day and well worth the $25 it cost me to participate even if I really should have been planting trees here today and it's almost all promises rather than cash in the pocket. The baby goats were a huge hit and they seemed to have a good time, too. When MAAA (me) is right there with them they don't seem to be at all stressed by travelling. As long as they get their noontime bottle and their lap-time afterward, all is well with the world. And everybody -- even little children -- were very good about my warning to pet the bablies but not to let the babies nibble on fingers because they're just learning what to do with their teeth and they don't understand yet that they aren't supposed to bite down. I just had to show the slice in the tip of one of my fingers to one lady who started to "pooh pooh" the idea that such darling little poopsies could cause damage. Try a really deep paper cut, the little snots are so cute and sweet sucking on the fingertip right up to the point where they maneuver it over to the slicing and grinding molars. Don't anybody try to tell me that wasn't a look of extreme self-satisfaction on Orange Sherbert's fuzzy little face as I shrieked in pain and he licked my blood off his chin. I love my goat babies, I love my goat babies. And they love me too, with mustard I think. And I do think I made some good connections today. But gosh I'm tired and it's time to do chores. The dog was bouncing happily at the car after I put the goats in the pasture and I had to let her know that I'm not doing this again for as long as I can put off doing it so she might as well not get excited, and yes next time I'll think to get permission for her to come along too. It _is_ fun, but being "on stage" for six full hours just drains me right out. Good practice for market days, though. Some day I'll have the cash to hire performers to do this part for me so I can just grub in the dirt (my real talent and first love). Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Apr 25 21:17:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06206 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01510 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 21:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA16715; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:09:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16640 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 20:07:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-59-146.stk.jps.net [209.142.59.146]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA19457 for ; Mon, 26 Apr 1999 02:08:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37221322.511716AC@jps.net> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:53:23 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: [Fwd: CSA near Milwaukee?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9F9F5E06E1A5ED04F364F212" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9F9F5E06E1A5ED04F364F212 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Jorin wrote: > Hello > We visited your site in our search for CSA s near Milwaukee. We didn't > see any and wonder if you can direct us elsewhere. Madison isn't too far > to go once a week, so thanks for that tip, but if you know of anything > more easterly please let us know. > Thanks, > Ted and Christa, tbj_clm@execpc.com (414) 272-9802 -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . --------------9F9F5E06E1A5ED04F364F212 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from smtp4.jps.net (smtp4.jps.net [209.63.224.57]) by mail2b.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA10430 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (sendmail@mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by smtp4.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA19350 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 05:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from execpc.com (kronos-2-59.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.85.187]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id WAA11456 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:54:09 -0500 Message-ID: <37214112.84F47FBC@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:57:06 -0500 From: Ted Jorin Reply-To: tbj_clm@execpc.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD EXECPC-45 (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rfarm@jps.net Subject: CSA near Milwaukee? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Hello We visited your site in our search for CSA s near Milwaukee. We didn't see any and wonder if you can direct us elsewhere. Madison isn't too far to go once a week, so thanks for that tip, but if you know of anything more easterly please let us know. Thanks, Ted and Christa, tbj_clm@execpc.com (414) 272-9802 --------------9F9F5E06E1A5ED04F364F212-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 07:35:50 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23303 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15611 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA25489; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25422 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:26:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA00375; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:25:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-191.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.191) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000357; Tue Apr 27 06:24:33 1999 Message-ID: <00c101be90a0$3dbe4780$bff96ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: new member bio Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:22:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 We are in our second year a CSA. There are three of us that do all the work. We are thinking of some part time help. How do you manage 200 members? How much hired help do you have? How do you get 200 baskets prepared? We are hoping for 30 members 200 is amazing. How many weeks is your growing season? Ours is 20+ with a quart of Maple Syrup in Feb. to keep everyone interested? Thank-you Beth >We are Mariquita Farm: Andy Griffin and Julia Wiley. We have a 200 >member CSA in central California; We currently grow on about 30 acres in >and around Watsonville. Andy has been farming (organically) for 20 >years; Julia is busy keeping the CSA customers in line and keeping them >happy. > The biggest daily challenge we currently face is how to farm and raise >our two children: ages 2 and 4. > >-- >--------------------------------------------------- > >Mariquita Farm >Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables >(831)761-3226 >e-mail: csa@mariquita.com >web site: http://www.mariquita.com >P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 > >--------------------------------------------------- > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 07:45:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23873 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:45:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17255 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA25918; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25620 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:30:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA00599 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:30:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-191.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.191) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000588; Tue Apr 27 06:30:22 1999 Message-ID: <00c401be90a1$0dd43ce0$bff96ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Christmas Trees Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:28:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 We were brainstorming on you might say value added products and ways to extended our CSA and general market passed the summer months. Christmas Trees is something we've thrown around (yeh its good exersise), someday we hope to grow them, we've grown them for our own use, never bought a tree in my 20 years of marriage. But for the next few years would buying a few trees wholesale be a good idea? We would make a thing of it , sleigh rides with the horses, hot chocolate etc. I said with the critters we've got we could almost set up a nativity scene. We've got the donkey, think sheep are arriving in a few weeks, just need a dairy cow which is coming when we find the right gal. Anyone have experience with Christmas trees, know where to buy them wholesale? Thank you Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 11:17:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02417 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19190 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08577; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:07:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ca2315.caescondid.fsc.usda.gov (ca2315.caescondid.fsc.usda.gov [199.156.52.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07801 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:59:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by ca2315.caescondid.fsc.usda.gov with SMTP (8.7.6/itc-cust.Revision: 1.11 $) id OAA00982; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:57:06 GMT Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:57:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Brown X-Sender: brown@ca2315 Reply-To: Matthew Brown To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Internships in CA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 Hi Folks: A nearby CSA asked me to pass on the following announcement. Feel free to forward it to other interested groups or individuals. Matt Escondido, CA ********************************* "Organic Planet, a small biointensive farm in northern San Diego CO, has openings for 3 interns. Room, board and weekly stipend will be provided. Internship will include all aspects of farm operation: fruit, nut, herb, flower and vegetable production; CSA-style marketing with local delivery; and active participation in farm development. Organic Planet is a 7 acre farm located near Fallbrook, CA, 15 miles from the coast and 40 miles north of San Diego." Inquiries should be directed to: Michael and Carollyn Organic Planet Farm 3519 Luneta Lane Fallbrook, Ca 92028 (760) 731 - 1238 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 11:56:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04187 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02234 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA12022; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:46:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11966 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:46:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool024-max6.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.2.174]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15242 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 08:46:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990427075150.00966100@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:51:50 -0700 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: Re: Christmas Trees In-Reply-To: <00c401be90a1$0dd43ce0$bff96ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 Hey treepeople, Here's just a crack-pot idea: Back when I was a kid, shopping for the annual family tree, us kids were intrigued by the idea of a live tree. Mom already had her garden and yard planted or planned, and another pinetree wasn't in her plans. We needed a live tree that we could rent! One of my CSA ideas is dropping a tree off at each subscriber's home around the holidays. Roll it into the house for 'em, and return to reclaim it. You could probably charge the local going rate for the service. I think dead trees in Southern California cost about $20. People would be happy to pay the same amount for a live tree that they don't have to lug around, or discard. Just an idea that I'm dying to try... Fred FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Earning an MS in Sustainable Aquaculture at Cal Poly Pomona, I enjoy the rewards and challenges of living, learning, working, and playing. The dedicated, hard working team of students, staff, and faculty is the best part of being involved with the Center for Regenerative Studies Anyone *CAN* live a comfortable, modern life, without the big environmental footprint. http://www.csupomona.edu/~crs/ Check out my peers in the NFB. They have it together! http://www.nfb.org Our Strawbale Green-House http://www.csupomona.edu/~crs/page9/page7.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 12:00:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04262 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03100 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA12362; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:51:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12198 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 10:49:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.198] [209.8.149.163] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id AD8B7270124; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:53:47 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:49:25 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: customers Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 If there are any CSA's serving the DC area that aren't full up, contact me. I've now expanded as much as I possibly can and have a waiting list. Bull Run Mountain Organic Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 12:50:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05476 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17130 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15856; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:36:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15776 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:36:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA13842 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:35:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-149.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.149) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma013730; Tue Apr 27 11:35:08 1999 Message-ID: <00d701be90cb$a228db60$bff96ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "CSA list" Subject: Re: customers Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:33:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 You lucky dog! A waiting list I can only dream. Although our advertisment come out Friday, we'll see :). Beth -----Original Message----- From: Leigh Hauter To: CSA list Date: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 11:51 AM Subject: customers >If there are any CSA's serving the DC area that aren't full up, contact me. >I've now expanded as much as I possibly can and have a waiting list. >Bull Run Mountain Organic Farm > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 14:36:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08265 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22435 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25078; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:27:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25005 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:26:38 -0500 (CDT) From: sbonney@iquest.net Received: (qmail 1638 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1999 18:18:20 -0000 Received: from laf-0001-19.iquest.net (HELO default) (204.95.254.211) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Apr 1999 18:18:20 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990427132744.0096fa00@iquest.net> X-Sender: sbonney@iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:27:44 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: CSA Guide Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 A guide to CSA in Indiana, Michigan and Ohio, entitled The Many Faces of Community Supported Agriculture, has recently been published. The collaborative effort of Sustainable Earth, Michigan Organic Food and Farm Alliance and Ohio Ecological Food and Farm Association (all not-for-profit organizations) contains profiles of 35 csa farms in the three states and a selected bibliography of csa. Although written to educate agriculture professionals about csa, the profiles contain a plethora of ideas that csa farms have implemented (recruitment, organization, member involvement, distribution, etc.) that csa farmers everywhere will find very useful. Unfortunately, we must charge $10 (includes postage) for this 107 page guide, which can be ordered from the address below. Steve Bonney, President Sustainable Earth a 501(c)3 not-for-profit dedicated to economic development through sustainable agriculture 100 Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette IN 47906 tel (765)463-9366; fax (765)497-0164; email sbonney@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 16:18:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11041 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25948 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03819; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:08:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03709 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:07:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB103-13.splitrock.net [209.156.66.59]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA79362; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:07:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199904272007.QAA79362@pimout2-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , "Fred Chambers" Subject: Re: Christmas Trees Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:55:58 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 in our neighborhood (which includes numerous cut your own tree farms), dead trees START at $20 and $40-50 isn't uncommon. in certain pricey-er neighborhoods, you could probably get the latter price for a rented tree, just for the convenience of somebody else lugging it in and for the spiritual sense that the buyer (er, renter) has done something for the environment by doing absolutely nothing at all! noreen spring run farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 16:47:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11928 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06303 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA06034; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:36:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05959 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:36:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904272036.PAA05959@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 283227870; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:36:23 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "CSA List" Subject: CSA in Austin Texas? Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:29:36 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 Does anyone know of a CSA in the Austin, TX area? Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 18:47:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15004 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13427 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA14875; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:38:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hissy.excite.com (hissy-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.229]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14812 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:38:08 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by hissy.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990427223735.ORJ10460.hissy@doby.excite.com> for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:37:35 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Need an Intern? Message-Id: <925252654.28991.458@excite.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:37:34 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.150 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 Hi there, I found this posting on a BB I post to a lot and since I see lots of calls for interns on this list I thought this may help someone out. The author of the post consented gladly to have this posted BTW. I am a undergraduate at Principia College in Elsah, IL I have studied organic farming and permaculture extensivly, and hope to farm after i get out of school. I am seeking a B.S. degree in environmental science and a minor in outdoor education, and I am looking for someone to give me more hands on experiance in the art of organic farming and sustainable living. I just got back from spending 10 weeks in Nepal studying indiginous agriculture and its effects on the environment. Please respond if you know of any places that i could find good hands on experiance, hopefully with a little pay to or my wife won't be to happy. thanks seth contact thru email at- blugras18@hotmail.com http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 18:55:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15096 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15847 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15510; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:46:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jake.excite.com (jake-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.221]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15436 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:46:04 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from pouch.excite.com ([199.172.152.242]) by jake.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990427224531.CLLR28756.jake@pouch.excite.com> for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:45:31 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA Guide Message-Id: <925253127.12667.595@excite.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:45:27 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.150 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 This is a good guide. Steve, you and Holly should be congratulated for putting out a nice publication-congrats due and dudess. It don't hurt that our farm is one of the CSA's profiled but even if it weren't I still would get the book. We need more pubs like this to network all CSA's in the US or better yet by region. My Mom sent me a nice artlcle about Michigan CSA's from the Detroit free Press,nice listing of all the CSA in MI (all 8 of 'em) with a map that locates them in the State. I see the Lake Huron/Saginaw Bay area needs a CSA. http://members.delphi.com/organicgirl _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Apr 27 20:50:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16676 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27014 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA23084; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:41:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (POSTOFFICE2.MAIL.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.56.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22983 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:40:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [132.236.102.102] (L0088.DIALUP.CORNELL.EDU [132.236.102.102]) by postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18514 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:40:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jcb13@postoffice4.mail.cornell.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Jennifer Bokaer-Smith Subject: CSAs in DC? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 One of our members is moving to Montgomery Co MD (northeast of DC), and wants to join a CSA in that area. If anyone knows of any, please let me know. Thanks, Jen From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Apr 28 14:02:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02260 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 14:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14743 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 13:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14330; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:51:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13040 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:33:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:33:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904281733.MAA13040@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 2400 invoked from network); 28 Apr 1999 17:33:13 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-3.iquest.net (209.43.53.3) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 1999 17:33:13 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: CSA in Austin Texas? Cc: "CSA List" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 Boggy Creek. www.boggycreekfarm.com You'll love them! At 04:29 PM 4/27/99 -0400, Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm wrote: >Does anyone know of a CSA in the Austin, TX area? > >Jo and Jim >"The Community Farm" newsletter >A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture >http://www.gks.com/TCF/ > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 2 12:01:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14040 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 12:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11081 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA09109; Sun, 2 May 1999 10:54:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08941 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 10:48:46 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (4420) by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dCJGa02293 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <67804188.245dcd77@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:47:03 EDT Subject: What came first?: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 From: SCook21809 To: CWAlmonds >Art, Why is it that there are still flies in my large chicken enclosure, are they eating the larva but not enough...outnumbered by the flies? I had a about 35 chickens in about a 25x30' (or more) space. Thanks for the advice! Cheryl> Mmmm Cheryl, you are asking the rhetorical question, "What came first the chicken or the fly?" One begets the other. The manure is the host and vector for fly breeding. I use a multifaceted approach to keep the fly population in check. First, I receive a package of "Fly Parasites" once a month from an insectary called Rincon-Vitova (800) 248-2847. I spread the parasites over manure collection areas. These tiny little wasps lay their eggs in the magot and destroy many of them. I also set out fly traps that are screened boxes with some smelly brewers yeast under them to catch many adults. When the box fills up I submerse it for ten minutes and feed the drowned flies back to the chickens. I also have a wide sticky trap that unrolls above the doorway of my barn. Its white color attracts flies at the end of the day looking for a resting place. Picking up the bedding and manure piles and composting them is also critically important for both soil fertility and fly control. Hope these tips help to reduce the black spots floating around your living room. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 2 12:30:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14261 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 12:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20104 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 12:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10276; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:23:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09939 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:16:22 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14366) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dSTEa08654 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 12:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <335f2334.245dd40b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 12:15:07 EDT Subject: Visitors To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 Okay, how do others handle this -- I'm sure I'm not the only one with the problem. My work day on the farm starts at 4 AM. By 11:30 I'm ready to sit down and relax for an hour, replenish the bottomed-out blood sugar, wash off a few layers, all that pesky detail stuff. Never seems to fail that especially when I've spent a horrible, totally frustrating morning chasing escaped goats, fixing fence, and turning around to find out that the monsters have broken it down again before I even got the hammer put away -- there's a message on the machine from somebody who called three weeks ago and said they might come up some time. They're on their way and will be here within half an hour. No mention of when they called. I have tried putting "Visitors welcome with 24-hour advance appointment" in my brochures, explaining to civilians that we do not go out in the midday sun due to some special health conditions. The only thing that stopped the after-10-pm phone calls was unplugging the phone when I go to bed at 8:30. It seems that the total cluelessness of the importance of a serious midday break is just something that unconnected people who don't do hard physical labor will not get. It's convenient for them to "drop in" so that's what they're going to do. And it's convenient for them to "drop in" at lunchtime, we dassn't complain. When today's person arrives I'm going to ask her to walk around outside and enjoy herself for half an hour or so while I finish my needed break. This is the way I usually handle issues of personal space -- I climb up on stage if I'm up to it, take my break and don't let them intrude on it if that's what I need but do so in a friendly way and do join them within a reasonable time. It really is okay to state what we need, and we don't have to be on call 24 hours a day. As a one-woman CSA operator I've learned how to do this with some poise and kindness -- but firmness, too. The only folks who've ever had a problem with it turned out to be wannabe abusers anyway and weren't missed when they left. Any other wisdom out there about protecting privacy and balancing the desire to share one's farm with placing limits on intrusions? Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 2 19:43:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18579 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11162 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26998; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:35:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26705 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:30:26 -0500 (CDT) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com (299) by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dGKRa13028; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4a48c527.245e39a5@aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:28:37 EDT Subject: Re: Visitors To: DGreen47@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 Yup, the warm spring sun sure does bring out the visitors! Be thankful that they give you some advance notice. I was just commenting to the other farm workers that this has to be about the second or third nice weekend. The town folks use the first couple to clean up their manicured lawn and neat two car garage, and then head out to visit the farm. As much as we love having people enjoy our farm, it is sometimes a problem. We usually invite them to take a walk, or join us in the garden if they want to talk. The toughest folks we have are the older retired folks who don't much feel like walking or working, but would really like to chit chat and check out our plans for the season. We try to invite them for a lunch break, but they usually land at about 9 or 10am--peak work time! Any suggestions on that one? Linda Homestead Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 2 22:39:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21396 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 22:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01227 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 22:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA04505; Sun, 2 May 1999 21:30:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04269 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 21:25:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool044-max2.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [207.217.235.244]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA10988 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 19:25:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990502192343.0098db80@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 19:23:43 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Fred Chambers Subject: Org.Asparagus in NC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 22:40:57 -0700 Title: New customers, new tastes Published Wednesday, April 28, 1999, in the Charlotte Observer ------------------------------------------------------------ New customers, new tastes By KATHLEEN PURVIS Food Editor Daphine Hoffman has planted more than 30,000 asparagus plants on the land her family has farmed since the 1870s. Donnie Cline works through one of his asparagus fields with Banjo the farm dog. Cline uses ryegrass and hay to control weeds without chemicals. "There's a lot of honest people in the world," says Daphine Hoffman. She keeps asparagus for sale in the driveway at her farm outside Lincolnton. Donnie Cline puts freshly cut asparagus in wet peat moss to keep the ends moist. Stalking asparagus N.C. farmers find a new market in an old crop Look around most Piedmont farms and you know what to expect: Strawberries in spring, corn, tomatoes and green beans in the summer, greens and pumpkins in the fall. But take a good look at three farms -- New Beginning Organic Farm near Vale, Daphine & Sons near Lincolnton and Carrigan Farms outside Mooresville -- and you might see something that will surprise you this spring: Long purple and green fingers poking up from the dirt. Asparagus. Whole fields of it. In North Carolina? Well, why not? Asparagus grows wild in many areas in Western North Carolina. And people with large backyard gardens have planted it for years. So why not grow asparagus on a larger scale, as a cash crop? In the asparagus world, California and New Jersey are the major players. Three farms, even turning out a few thousand pounds a year each, are barely a blip on the radar. Since a processing plant in Sampson County shut down about 10 years ago, the farms that had been growing it on a large scale have gotten out of the market. The N.C. Department of Agriculture doesn't even keep statistics on asparagus, says marketing spokesman Ron Fish. But agriculture experts are excited by the possibilities of growing asparagus for direct sale to customers, says Kevin Starr, Lincoln County director for the N.C. Cooperative Extension Service. It's one more way small farms can widen their earning potential. "Diversification," says Starr, "is almost always a healthy thing." Farmers don't just toss out a few seeds and grow what they like. Trying a new crop means considerable investment and risk. For asparagus, take that risk and triple it: It takes three years before an asparagus field yields a full crop. At New Beginning Organic Farm in Lincoln County, Donnie Cline has been testing the waters since he planted his first asparagus roots six years ago. Selling organic produce at the Charlotte Regional Farmers Market and to restaurants and customers all around Hickory, he constantly asks people what they want, what they'll buy. "I have given asparagus away to get people to try it. You have to create your own market. I've sold stuff I haven't put in the ground. You have to ask people, what would you like?" But in creating demand for a new crop, Cline has been helped by the same changes that are taking place all over the Piedmont: Newcomers, transplants from all over the country, have brought their tastes with them. Local people don't know much about asparagus, he says. Many have never even tried it. But people who have moved here from other states are eager for it. "They're wondering why you can't find this, that and the other. The people from around here are starting to realize. They're realizing there's more out there than green beans and corn." Walking around his asparagus fields on an unseasonably cold, misty morning recently, Cline apologized for the state of the field. There's matted hay between the rows, wild violets nestled around the asparagus stalks, ryegrass growing everywhere. "I call it the weed patch," he jokes. "Organic farmers, that's the biggest problem -- weeds." As the only farmer around who is trying to grow asparagus organically, he battles asparagus beetles, which lay tiny black dots of eggs on the stalks. To keep back weeds, he grows ryegrass. To feed the plants, he uses potassium and slow-release rock phosphate, which takes years to penetrate the sandy loam soil. But part of the thrill for him is the challenge. "I just wanted to see if I could really grow it," he says. At $5 a bundle, his asparagus is a little more expensive. Most organic crops, he says, cost about a quarter more than conventionally grown foods. But customers are willing to pay for the chance to get really fresh, chemical-free food. And he isn't in it for the money, he says. "As long as I can get back my fertilizer money, all my expenses.. . . I enjoy growing. As long as I can get a living, I'm OK. You're not going to get rich doing this." Fond of fronds Right on the edge of the Lincoln/Gaston county lines, beside the South Fork River, Daphine Hoffman's asparagus is helping her keep a promise. Hoffmans have farmed these 40 acres since 1870. After marriage and divorce, Hoffman came back seven years ago and went into farming with her dad, George T. Hoffman. He died last year, at 93. "I promised him I would keep it going," she says. "I got to keep that tradition going." By supplying her with a cash crop early in the spring, before her okra, peanuts, melons and summer vegetables are ready for market, asparagus might be a way to do that. "When vegetables and produce are in season, your money is in season," she says. Anything a farmer can do to lengthen that growing season helps. Funny thing is, Hoffman hadn't even eaten asparagus until just before she came back to the farm. Her former mother-in-law used to make a wonderful Spanish omelet, filled with vegetables, including asparagus. "It would melt in your mouth," she says. So when she came back to Lincolnton, she got 20 roots from a Burpee catalog and planted them, just for herself. Then she tried to get rid of them. "I plowed over them, I planted over them and I couldn't kill them. So I decided I'd farm them." She added 130 roots the next year, and then 2,000 the next year. Last year, she took the plunge: She went to a farm in New Jersey to learn everything she could, then came home and planted 10,000 roots. This year, she bought 20,000 roots and rounded up a gang of family and friends, from four to 80, to help plant them. "Putting in 20,000 roots on your hands and knees . . . ." She shakes her head. Her father had his doubts, she says. "He didn't know how to farm it and I didn't either, but I was having fun. "The main thing is to get it in the ground. I'll master it later." Mastering an asparagus crop isn't like your average row crop. Asparagus is part of the lily family. Only the male plant produces stalks; the female just produces berries. The male root is a crown. It looks like a bundle of brown twine with a knot in the middle. The crown is covered with nodules. In the spring, each nodule sends up a spear. If you don't pick it, the spear grows into a frond, with skinny branches growing out of the tip and out of the purple shields that grow up the stalk. The frond grows more than 5 feet tall, storing up food for the next year, then dies back in the winter. The next year, another spear grows up from the same nodule, a little thicker this time. Each year, the spears get thicker. Each crown sends up anywhere from one to five spears. To keep the plant yielding, you only harvest for two weeks the first year, then for four weeks the second year. By the third year, the plant is established and you can harvest from late March until June. After that, you're rolling. Asparagus peaks in about 10 years, yielding 2,000 to 6,000 pounds an acre each season. But it can keep producing for as long as 20 years. When Hoffman first had the idea to put in an asparagus crop, she approached Kevin Starr at a dinner for farmers and asked him if he knew anything about growing asparagus. "He said, `you mean, for your garden?' " But it turned out Starr was also hoping a few farmers would try asparagus. "They just didn't expect a woman farmer," she says. "They're tickled pink." Like Donnie Cline, Daphine Hoffman sells to restaurants and markets in Hickory and Lincolnton. Both also sell to people who drive to the farm. In the driveway of Hoffman's farm on N.C. 155, she keeps several tubs filled with freshly cut asparagus and the sign "Honor System -- $2.50 a pound." "Last year, I had so many customers, I couldn't supply 'em. We'd have three and four in the driveway and more on the phone." On the other hand, she took 125 pounds to the Gastonia Farmers Market on a recent Saturday and came home with 80 pounds. Local people are still catching on to fresh asparagus. But it won't take much longer, she says. Next year, she plans to open her fields for the pick-your-own crowd. "It's nice to have something people are so curious about." CHEERS FOR SPEARS If you're hungry for fresh asparagus, Donnie Cline of New Beginning Organic Farm sells at the Charlotte Regional Farmers Market on Saturdays from 8 a.m. until about noon. Asparagus from Carrigan Farms is also available at the market and at the Carrigan Farm roadside stand on N.C. 150 outside Mooresville. Daphine Hoffman sells at the Gastonia Farmers Market on Saturdays. Or you can call the farms: Carrigan Farms in Mooresville, (704) 664-1450 days; New Beginning Organic Farm in Lincoln County, (704) 462-2505; Daphine & Sons in Lincolnton, (704) 735-0325. ------------------------------------------------------------ NewsHound is a service of Knight Ridder. For more information, write to: speak@newshound.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 3 16:59:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11546 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16746 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA28472; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:48:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (xavier.ups.com [198.80.14.117]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28057 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 15:42:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UPS) with ESMTP id QAA25342 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (smtp.field4.ups.com [153.2.2.62]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UPS) with ESMTP id QAA25147 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with ESMTP id QAA28083 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nyc1cdb.ups.com ([10.20.227.50]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with SMTP id QAA28078 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <010901be95a5$4f8c74a0$32e3140a@nyc1cdb.ups.com> Reply-To: "Ann Sterling" From: "Ann Sterling" To: Subject: archives? Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:41:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 Are there archives on this list? I'm especially interested in living mulches and mulches in general at the moment, Thanks Ann Sterling nyc1axw@nermail.ups.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 3 21:33:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA16620 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14536 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA17004; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:23:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.174.90.198] (mac198.ed.uiuc.edu [128.174.90.198]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16738 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:18:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jbarclay@mail.prairienet.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:17:50 -0600 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Barclay Subject: CSA-L FAQ Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 This is posted periodically to the list. John Barclay, Urbana, IL --------------------------------------------------------- Frequently Asked Questions for CSA-L Networking List (available at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/csa-l.html) 1. What is CSA-L? 2. What is Community Supported Agriculture? 3. How do I subscribe to CSA-L? 4. How do I unsubscribe to CSA-L? 5. What is appropriate to post to CSA-L? 6. How do I post to CSA-L? 7. Who subscribes to CSA-L? 8. Where can I find archives of CSA-L? 9. How can I find a CSA where I live? 10. What are some useful CSA organizations? 11. What are some good books, articles, and videos of CSA? 12. What are some CSA Resources on the World Wide Web. ******************************************************* 1. WHAT IS CSA-L? The e-mail list "CSA-L@prairienet.org" is for networking on Community Supported Agriculture. We hope to see discussions on goals, distribution styles, outreach tools, member retention, educational work, connections with non-CSA organizations, etc. We also would like to see the exchange of newsletter articles and information about resources on CSA such as networking organizations, books, journals, videos, audio tapes from conferences, speaker tours of interest to CSAs, etc. In short, we would like to take advantage of the collective knowledge of as many CSA's as possible to help the CSA movement grow and strengthen! The listowners are John Barclay (jbarclay@prairienet.org) of Prairieland CSA in Champaign, Illinois and Sarah Milstein (milstein@pipeline.com) of Just Food in New York, New York. ******************************************************* 2. What is Community Supported Agricutlure Community Supported Agriculture is a partnership between farmers and consumers. In CSA, consumers buy products directly from the farm, and pay for them in advance. Farmers do their best to produce sufficient quantity and quality of fresh, nutritious food for their customers' needs and palates. In some CSAs, people pay in advance to support a farm for a season. In return, these 'shareholders' or 'sharers' receive a share of whatever the farm has ready to harvest each week. In other CSAs, also called subscription farms, people subscribe to a share of a given value, prepaying monthly or quarterly. Although the size of subscription shares don't change throughout the year, the content varies with the season. CSA gives non-farmers a chance to get more involved in producing and distributing their own food. Farms sponsor tours, workdays, and even 'workshares' to bring shareholders out to the farm. CSAs also often ask shareholders to help deliver shares, sponsor drop-off sites, manage shareholder lists, write newsletters, and more ******************************************************* 2. HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO CSA-L? Send a message to "listproc@prairienet.org" with "subscribe CSA-L Firstname Lastname" in the message. Put your first and last names in place of Firstname and Lastname and omit the quotes. You may leave the subject line blank. ******************************************************* 3. HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO CSA-L? Send a message to "listproc@prairienet.org" with "unsubscribe CSA-L" in the message. Omit the quotes. You may leave the subject line blank. If this doesn't work, send an e-mail to jbarclay@prairienet.org and I will unsubscribe you. ******************************************************* 4. WHAT IS APPROPRIATE TO POST TO CSA-L? All messages should meet the following criteria: -> Messages should be related to the purpose of the list. -> Messages should have a clear subject heading. -> Messages between individuals should not go to the entire list unless the information in them may be of interest to the list. -> Messages should include a good signature which includes your name, any organization that you represent, and where you are located geographically. -> Questions that are answered in the Frequently Asked Questions Postings (FAQs) should be avoided. These guidelines are to improve the quality and effectiveness of the list as a networking tool. As the number of subscribers to the list grows, the success of the list will depend on the quality of our postings. ******************************************************* 5. HOW DO I POST TO CSA-L? To post a message to the whole list, send it to CSA-L@prairienet.org In order to post to CSA-L, you must be subscribed to the list and send the message from the account name that you are subscribed on. In other words, If you have several e-mail accounts or aliases, you need to send e-mail from the account you subscribed from. ******************************************************* 6. WHO SUBSCRIBES TO CSA-L? Over 200 farmers, CSA members, students studying CSA, and other interested parties from around the world. To get a list of the subscribers send a message to "listproc@prairienet.org" with "recipients CSA-L" in the body and a current list will be sent to you. Some subscriber biographies are available on the CSA-L web page. ******************************************************* 7. WHERE CAN I FIND ARCHIVES OF POSTINGS TO CSA-L? On the world wide web at: http://csf.colorado.edu/sustainability/plants/csa/ ******************************************************* 8. HOW CAN I FIND A CSA WHERE I LIVE? CSANA has an online listing of CSAs at: http://www.umass.edu./umext/CSA Call the Bio-Dynamic Farming and Gardening Association toll-free CSA/BDA Consumer Hot Line (1-800-516-7797) to request a free list of the CSA/BDA farms and/or gardens in your state. CSA West is a resource for finding CSAs on the west coast of the U.S., especially California. (408/459-3964). They have an online listing of CSAs at: ******************************************************* 9. WHAT ARE SOME USEFUL NATIONAL AND REGIONAL RESOURCE ORGANIZATIONS ON CSA? CSA OF NORTH AMERICA (CSANA), founded by the recently deceased Robyn Van En, will be one of the lead organizations in the Northeast CSA Conference, scheduled for January 1998. Tel: 413.528.4374. http://www.umass.edu./umext/CSA THE BIODYNAMIC FARMING AND GARDENING ASSOCIATION, Inc. is a major promoter of CSA in North America, especially in the Northeast. Located in Kimberton, PA, the Association publishes a bi-monthly newsletter, sponsors a CSA conference every winter and maintains a large and remarkably comprehensive database of established CSAs in North America. On request, the Association will provide a list of CSAs for any given area. They also sell Louise's Leaves. They can be reached at 1.800.516.7797 or PO Box 550, Kimberton, PA 19442. http://www.biodynamics.com/. EQUITY TRUST, INC. is a community development organization that has created a revolving-loan fund for CSAs to acquire and develop agricultural land with appropriate conservation easements and/or other tenure arrangements that serve both farmers and communities. Their Fund for Conservation and Community Supported Agriculture allows investors to make unusually safe, flexible financial investments that support progressive social change. Equity Trust also provides technical assistance and advises CSAs on lend tenure issues. Equity Trust can be reached at 539 Beach Pond Road, Voluntown, CT 06384. Tel: 860.376.6174. JUST FOOD. Just Food is building connections between urban communities and regional small farms. During the 1996-97 season, we were instrumental in enabling six new CSAs to begin delivery in New York City. For the 1997-98 season, Just Food will be focusing on low-income residents' access to CSA. We are not a core group, BUT WE ARE HERE FOR YOU, AND WE CAN HELP YOUR CSA TAKE ROOT AND GROW IN THE CITY. Contact Sarah Milstein or Kathy Lawrence, at any point & with any questions: 290 Riverside Drive, #15D, New York, NY 10025-5287; Tel: 212/666.2168; Fax: 212.531.4849; Email: milstein@pipeline.com CSA WEST. CSA West was founded to expand the CSA movement by offering regional information to farmers, prospective and current CSA members, the media, student/interns, and related non-profit organizations. CSA projects are very much the product of a grassroots movement, where farmers and other CSA organizers swap information among themselves. We strive to expand this exchange of new ideas, tried-and-true practices, and helpful tips on running CSAs among new, old, and potential participants in the western United States. csawest@caff.org. 916-756-8518, extension 27; fax: 916-756-7857 US mail: CAFF, PO Box 363, Davis, CA 95617. http://www.caff.org/caff/programs/ MADISON AREA CSA COALITION (MACSAC) maintains an updated directory of CSA farms serving the Madison, WI area and sponsor several CSA-related events each year, including a CSA Farm Fair in March, farm tours during the summer, and conferences and grower workshops in the fall and winter. We also have ongoing regular meetings which are open to the public. Karen Foley-Stauss c/o Wisconsin Rural Development Center, 125 Brookwood Dr., Mt. Horeb, WI 53572, 608/437-5971. ******************************************************* 10. WHAT ARE SOME GOOD BOOKS, ARTICLES, AND VIDEOS OF CSA? FARMS OF TOMORROW: COMMUNITY SUPPORTED FARMS, FARM SUPPORTED COMMUNITIES, by Trauger Groh and Steven McFadden. Although published in 1990 -- only five years into the CSA movement in this country -- the book is still relevant today. With a section on the troubled relationship between modern agriculture, environment, people and food, plus profiles of seven CSAs that are beginning to address these problems, it's a very readable and useful work. Farms of Tomorrow is available from the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association (see above). A new version will be published later this year. COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE. . . MAKING THE CONNECTION. A 1995 HANDBOOK FOR PRODUCERS. Presented by University of California Cooperative Extension Placer County and Small Farm Center, UC Davis. 198 pages ** binder format. MAKING THE CONNECTION pulls together the experience of many innovative projects. While describing the diversity of CSA, this handbook for producers also addresses common questions and concerns including: What is CSA?, Developing a CSA, Finding and keeping members, Production for CSA, Managing the shares. $25. Contact UC Cooperative Extension at 916-889-7385 for ordering information or on the CSA-L web page or e-mail ceplacer@ucdavis.edu. THE NORTHEAST REGIONAL FOOD GUIDE, published by cornell coop extension, has excellent information and tips On eating local, seasonal produce. To order, call 607.255.2080. GROWING FOR MARKET is a monthly newsletter that has articles by and about CSA farmers. Good ideas and honest discussion abound. Subscriptions are $27/year. Gfm, fairplain publications, P.O. box 3747, Lawrence, KS 66046; Tel/fax: 913.841.2559. ******************************************************* 11. What are some CSA Resources on the World Wide Web? Links to all the web sites have found related to CSAs can be found at: http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L.html I'm not dilligent about updating these web pages, but they are agood place to start. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 09:14:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24882 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13878 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13461; Tue, 4 May 1999 08:05:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web602.mail.yahoo.com (web602.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.166]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA12844 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 07:53:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990504125256.12535.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.211.17.33] by web602.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 04 May 1999 05:52:56 PDT Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: jared volpe Subject: archives To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 I've been trying to access the archives. They start on Tue 05 Mar 1996 - 00:00:-44229 MST and end on Sat 09 Jan 1999 - 15:31:11 MST. Where are the current posts? Thanks, Jared _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 09:45:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25332 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24356 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15431; Tue, 4 May 1999 08:36:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13869 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 08:10:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA01572 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 08:10:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-53.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.53) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001523; Tue May 4 08:09:58 1999 Message-ID: <007601be962f$1edd4700$4efa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Our advertisment Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 09:07:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 I wrote a few days ago that we were putting an ad in a local paper. Some people have written private e-mails for info. I thought I'd answer to the list. Well yikes it worked! This ad in a way was a huge leap of faith, especially for my cautious and a bit cheap husband. As I said before, sometimes its good when your business partner is willing to take risks(training the draft horses, but thats another story). The ad was close to $800. It is a 6 week deal in a once a week free newspaper that goes to about 4 towns. The deal included a small article, however they like the farmyness so much the article was about a full page. The first ad was full page (the pages are a bit smaller than normal paper). The ad department basically designed the ad. Sean (our business partner) did the leg work, gave them brochures, explained CSA, gave them a few pictures of the animals. The add was basically black and white with some of the words in a wierd sort of teal green. Pictures of veggies surrounded the edges. The animals were cut and pasted from their pictures and their names written next to them. The entire list of offered veggies was listed. Well it ran on Friday. Since them we've got more than 20 calls and about 15 have signed up, so far. With some of last years people we are at about 20 members. There are still a few outstanding brouchures floating around. We gave tours to about a dozen people all but one signed up on the spot. We are closing at 30. Which was our dream upper limit. I feel like I've had nothing but caffine for 3 days. I am pleased (the guys are estatic), but "scared". Pressure is on. The garden was beautiful last years, fingers crossed we'll be even more beautiful. Question How do you child proff a farm!:). Lots of little kids joining (well medium amount), they run everywhere. My kids are teenagers(and to toot my own horn I never let them run wild). I am thinking of one of those chain link dog run things with the wire roof! Think I will get a sand box, suggestions? How are these people going to pick beans with kids running around! I know be careful what you wish for! Well its finally drizzling here hope it pours. Need to print some more brouchures. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 12:44:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29557 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26929 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04926; Tue, 4 May 1999 11:34:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04799 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 11:33:34 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990504163302.DZMI20409.fortune@ringo.excite.com>; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:33:02 -0700 To: "Dan Hook" , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Baby proofing a Farm Message-Id: <925835582.3850.304@excite.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 09:33:02 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.36 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 Baby proofing, I have been thinking about this as there are several families with kids and a good kid exp sells the CSA. If there are several parents designate one to do kid watching while the others work. Set up a kids garden that they plant (with adult supervision). Take the kids on a tour of all the dangerous places on the farm and tell them they cannot go there. If they see the dangerous off limits places theyt are no longer curious and won't be nearly as tempted to check them out again (there will be one or two...). If you have a hay barn encourage them to build forts with the bales-this activity keeps them busy for hours and is safe with kids over 6. Do you have any teachers in your CSA? They are a wealth of kid activity ideas. Have a meeting with the parents about keeping the kids safe, come up with safety rules and a supervision system everyone can live with. You can't allow the kids to run wild the destruction potential is too great and a lot of parents don't realise this. They think farms are some sort of indestructable safe haven (Not). Tell them they are still responsible for the kid's actions even on the farm. Note new web site URL-still being built as I get time.... Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 14:41:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02506 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22234 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15688; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:33:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15569 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:32:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA24911; Tue, 4 May 1999 13:31:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2-178.ix.netcom.com(209.110.252.178) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024849; Tue May 4 13:31:05 1999 Message-ID: <009f01be965b$fc6aca80$4efa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:28:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 Thank-you for the suggestions. I am going to write a Welcome edition of my Newsletter I guess I must included a paragrapgh about safety etc. I have just got to figure out out to sweetly say, "Watch your offspring". I liked your web page. Beth -----Original Message----- From: goodows@excite.com To: Dan Hook ; csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 12:34 PM Subject: Baby proofing a Farm >Baby proofing, I have been thinking about this as there are several families >with kids and a good kid exp sells the CSA. >If there are several parents designate one to do kid watching while the >others work. Set up a kids garden that they plant (with adult supervision). >Take the kids on a tour of all the dangerous places on the farm and tell >them they cannot go there. If they see the dangerous off limits places theyt >are no longer curious and won't be nearly as tempted to check them out again >(there will be one or two...). If you have a hay barn encourage them to >build forts with the bales-this activity keeps them busy for hours and is >safe with kids over 6. Do you have any teachers in your CSA? They are a >wealth of kid activity ideas. Have a meeting with the parents about keeping >the kids safe, come up with safety rules and a supervision system everyone >can live with. You can't allow the kids to run wild the destruction >potential is too great and a lot of parents don't realise this. They think >farms are some sort of indestructable safe haven (Not). Tell them they are >still responsible for the kid's actions even on the farm. > >Note new web site URL-still being built as I get time.... > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 15:12:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03294 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03143 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18307; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:05:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.174.90.198] (mac198.ed.uiuc.edu [128.174.90.198]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18243 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:04:50 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: jbarclay@mail.prairienet.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990504125256.12535.rocketmail@web602.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:03:53 -0600 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Barclay Subject: New Archives Location for CSA-L Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 The new CSA-L archives are at: http://csf.colorado.edu/archive/csa.html I'll fix that FAQ before I send it out again as it gives the wrong location. Communications for a Sustainable Future archives CSA-L as a favor to the CSA Community and to support their mission. They have a lot of good content on their web site at: http://csf.colorado.edu/ John Barclay From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 15:17:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03430 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:17:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05145 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18720; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:10:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18458 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 14:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905041908.OAA18458@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 23419 invoked from network); 4 May 1999 19:08:12 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-32.iquest.net (209.43.47.32) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 May 1999 19:08:12 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Dan Hook" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Cc: , Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 Hello, everyone. I've been silently reading these messages--but wow, we do have a lot in common! Can't help but join in... The first pick up day of my CSA last year resulted in a member bringing 10 of her church friends--each of which brought at least 4 children with them. After a couple of minutes of panic I realized that we had to have rules and they had to be communicated in a serious fashion. All of our farm info now carries the message that children are welcome only with constant parent supervision because farms can be places where they can get hurt. We tell them this as an expression of concern over their childrens' well-being. If a child does something to endanger themself we immediately tell (not ask) them to stop. If they continue we ask the parents to take care of it. We have special places for the kids to keep busy--a bed of edible flowers and cherry tomatoes to munch on, fossil hunting spots, a walking path to a small woods (fenced and impossible to get lost in)... We serve popcorn and herb tea on a picnic table near a swingset. We try to make it fun--but we are very clear about what they can and cannot do. Machinery and tools are off limits. Kids are not allowed in the toolshed, or past a certain point in the barn (blocked off). Trash gets thrown in the trash can--and if a child throws it on the ground they get told to pick it up and put it where it belongs. We also have the hard and fast rule NO PETS. This came as a result of crop damage followed by a dog almost hanging itself when it jumped over a fence. If you just let them know--this is for their protection--the message is sweet enough. You do it because you care, not because you are being "mean." Only once in four years has a kid pushed things. He was about 14 and thought that jumping up and down in the front loader was the thing to do. That's when the blockade went up in the barn. Most of the time the kids are great. No one has ever complained and we get a lot of hand made cards and such from the kids so they seem to love us despite the discipline. It also helps to have kids around who know the rules. Mine are grown but the grandkids and friend's kids are around a lot. They all like the social aspects of pick up day and the mom's enjoy it too. At 02:28 PM 5/4/99 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: >Thank-you for the suggestions. I am going to write a Welcome edition of my >Newsletter I guess I must included a paragrapgh about safety etc. I have >just got to figure out out to sweetly say, "Watch your offspring". I liked >your web page. Beth >-----Original Message----- >From: goodows@excite.com >To: Dan Hook ; csa-l@prairienet.org > >Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 12:34 PM >Subject: Baby proofing a Farm > > >>Baby proofing, I have been thinking about this as there are several >families >>with kids and a good kid exp sells the CSA. >>If there are several parents designate one to do kid watching while the >>others work. Set up a kids garden that they plant (with adult supervision). >>Take the kids on a tour of all the dangerous places on the farm and tell >>them they cannot go there. If they see the dangerous off limits places >theyt >>are no longer curious and won't be nearly as tempted to check them out >again >>(there will be one or two...). If you have a hay barn encourage them to >>build forts with the bales-this activity keeps them busy for hours and is >>safe with kids over 6. Do you have any teachers in your CSA? They are a >>wealth of kid activity ideas. Have a meeting with the parents about keeping >>the kids safe, come up with safety rules and a supervision system everyone >>can live with. You can't allow the kids to run wild the destruction >>potential is too great and a lot of parents don't realise this. They think >>farms are some sort of indestructable safe haven (Not). Tell them they are >>still responsible for the kid's actions even on the farm. >> >>Note new web site URL-still being built as I get time.... >> >>Lucy Goodman-Owsley >>Boulder Belt CSA >>New Paris, OH >>http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________________ >>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ >> >> > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 15:58:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04859 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19519 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA21618; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:51:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21522 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:49:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA08700; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:49:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-240.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.240) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007444; Tue May 4 14:44:15 1999 Message-ID: <00ac01be9666$353eeee0$4efa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Cecilia Bowman" Cc: , Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:42:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 Dear Cecila, Thank-you for joining in. I like your suggestions. Love the no pets! Beth >Hello, everyone. I've been silently reading these messages--but wow, we do >have a lot in common! Can't help but join in... > >The first pick up day of my CSA last year resulted in a member bringing 10 >of her church friends--each of which brought at least 4 children with them. >After a couple of minutes of panic I realized that we had to have rules and >they had to be communicated in a serious fashion. All of our farm info now > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 17:19:41 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06828 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20579 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27782; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:11:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27526 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:08:18 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990504210746.FBTH20409.fortune@flash.excite.com> for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:07:46 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Message-Id: <925852065.22127.838@excite.com> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 14:07:45 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.109 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 We have a no pet rule too. A couple of years ago we had a "nice dog" charge the chickens and was almost thur the fence before anybody could stop her. We do have to explain the no pets rule because we have dogs and cats etc but they know the rules and do very little harm and lots of good. Kids love discipline and don't get enough of it these days if you ask me. Farms are wonderful places to teach kids about resposibilities. They can teach the parents about responsibility too. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 17:48:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07821 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00620 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00336; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:40:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00280 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:40:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:40:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905042140.QAA00280@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 14101 invoked from network); 4 May 1999 21:40:17 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as004-121.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as000-32.iquest.net) (209.43.54.121) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 May 1999 21:40:17 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: goodows@excite.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 Just wondering--how many of you find that the majority of your members home school? It seems to be the majority in my CSA do. At 02:07 PM 5/4/99 PDT, goodows@excite.com wrote: >We have a no pet rule too. A couple of years ago we had a "nice dog" charge >the chickens and was almost thur the fence before anybody could stop her. We >do have to explain the no pets rule because we have dogs and cats etc but >they know the rules and do very little harm and lots of good. > >Kids love discipline and don't get enough of it these days if you ask me. >Farms are wonderful places to teach kids about resposibilities. They can >teach the parents about responsibility too. >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 18:34:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08679 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16240 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03945; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:26:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03857 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:25:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA05758; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:25:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-17.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.17) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005711; Tue May 4 17:24:55 1999 Message-ID: <00bd01be967c$a7f7d260$4efa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:22:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 You guys are wise. I thought of the fact that we have two dogs and one cat and the various farm animals. But I am going to blame the no pet rule on the livestock. Its not a lie. One of my dogs (ours know the rules as well) won't go near the donkey, she's been kicked! The other dog is quick and the donkey just glares at him :). It seems that our new membership is a split of ages older , older kids, young, very young kids. I hope some "older" kids 8+ join they can be fun. Teaching them about growing and animals. I want to say I read on someone elses web page that they had lots of home schoolers. I had our farm listed in a home schooling newsletter, that we would allow homeschoolers to study. No one called but they may as the good weather allows. Thanks to the veterans. Beth -----Original Message----- From: goodows@excite.com To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 5:09 PM Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm >We have a no pet rule too. A couple of years ago we had a "nice dog" charge >the chickens and was almost thur the fence before anybody could stop her. We >do have to explain the no pets rule because we have dogs and cats etc but >they know the rules and do very little harm and lots of good. > >Kids love discipline and don't get enough of it these days if you ask me. >Farms are wonderful places to teach kids about resposibilities. They can >teach the parents about responsibility too. >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 18:51:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09150 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22029 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05241; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:43:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05136 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:42:58 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14443) by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dTSQa13120 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:37:15 EDT Subject: Re: Visiting Pets (was baby-proofing a farm) To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 >From our brochure and repeated with a bit of expansion in our member handbook: "Visitors are welcome on Sunday afternoons between 2 and 6 PM or at other times by appointment. Pets are safer and happier at home." Lots of people think it's a fine and wonderful thing to bring their dogs up to the farm for a run, with or without permission. One look at my Great Pyrenees livestock guardian -- who takes his job VERY seriously -- is enough to convince most of them that the park is a better spot for such sport. The statement in the member handbook is more direct: "Dogs and other pets are not permitted at the farm. No exceptions." Period. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 18:51:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09158 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22114 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05310; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:43:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05175 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:43:09 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14443) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dZDKa10990 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <27414939.2460d172@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:40:50 EDT Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 In a message dated 5/4/99 5:09:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, goodows@excite.com writes: << Farms are wonderful places to teach kids about resposibilities. They can teach the parents about responsibility too. >> Ooo, oooo, and delayed gratification, too! Got my first phone call from somebody wanting tomatoes today. I mean, she wanted them today. Didn't have a CLUE that we don't get tomatoes here in Zone 4/5 until late August if we're lucky and get them off to an early start. "They're in the grocery store, what's your problem?" was her response. God bless ignorance, if it wasn't there nobody would need us, right? Dori Green You know where The more I see of people, the more I appreciate goats. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 18:58:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09334 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24284 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05803; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05748 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:49:18 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14443) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dPVKa10989 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <84f2e907.2460d323@aol.com> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:48:03 EDT Subject: Re: Baby proofing a Farm To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 In a message dated 5/4/99 5:40:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Lucy writes: << Kids love discipline and don't get enough of it these days if you ask me. >> Thought about this for a few minutes. I don't think it's the discipline they like, but it's the logic of it, and our willingness to explain the reasons for it. So many rules today are accompanied by that zombie stare of "Well, that's the way it is" because some bureaucrat's brain has been hog-tied and they can't make it work any more. Children aren't as constrained by those ties, and can see connections and logic patterns with remarkable ease and clarity. I've never seen a child who didn't respond positively to somebody who treated them as a rational being with a usable brain, rather than as a receptable for rules and regulations without rhyme or reason. There I go again, spilling the beans that produce is just a by-product here, what I'm really growing is Revolution! Viva Community! Down with the Oppression of children, women, workers, and men! Huzzah! Give Peas A Chance! Dori Green yadda yadda (and goat slave and walking gnat feast, itchy scratchy) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 19:04:37 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09450 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26624 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA06398; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:57:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06338 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:56:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from busson (akron-216-196-25-103.raex.com [216.196.25.103]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA06744 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000101be9681$16694d60$6719c4d8@busson> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: the no pet rule Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:54:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Wow you guys, You are all way ahead of me. It would never occur to me that anyone would want to bring their pet to my place. But now that I have thought of it I sure wouldn't want someone elses yapping dog scaring the chickens, goats, ect. And their children! Oh my! My own are a challenge but they know the rules and don't at least do dangerous stuff. I can now envision someones little sweetheart starting the tractor and plowing down his/her folks! Rules are definately in order. I think that it is true that if you present your rules in light of common sense most won't balk. My new brochure has netted me exactly ONE customer who has paid up, where there's one there may be more. Hope so. I am beginning my big yearly battle with the flea beetles again right now. I would welcome anyone's homely cures for the common flea beetle, they are already making the tiny arugula and chinese cabbages look like bird shot hit them. Enjoying all the posts, Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 4 20:32:50 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11018 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 20:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24347 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 20:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA12263; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:23:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12189 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:23:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA21800; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:22:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-177.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.177) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021680; Tue May 4 19:21:50 1999 Message-ID: <00e801be968c$fdacca20$4efa6ed1@guldann.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: teaching Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 20:19:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 Honestly the whole having to make rules is such a drag, but I think someof the educational stuff could be fun. I agree with Dori kids like to learn. I liked her suggestion of explaining. Have the kids touch a horses hoof see how hard it is, how sharp the harrow is etc. I am going to see about some fun planting stuff. On of my aquaintances is joining and her 6 year old son is sharp. She told me he doesn't really like veggies that much, hence the 1/2 share. Well I said to my friend her coworker. Ask her what Patricks favorite veggies is. I will give her a kit. Container with the seeds in it. He grows it, gives it back to me I plant it and tag it with his name and really make sure he gets to pick it. She loved it. I should think he would think that was one special veggie. Ps. if it wilted I would switcharoo. I think I will offer this to all the people with kids. That should make the rules taste sweeter and there is nothing like getting to live vicariously through someone elses new experiences. Sean our partner, whos mother always had a garden but never planted potatoes was such a hoot when digging, he would woo and aha it was fun. He's experienced this year though. Once again you guys are great. Thank-you, Beth >Thought about this for a few minutes. I don't think it's the discipline they >like, but it's the logic of it, and our willingness to explain the reasons >for it. So many rules today are accompanied by that zombie stare of "Well, >that's the way it is" because some bureaucrat's brain has been hog-tied and >they can't make it work any more. > >Children aren't as constrained by those ties, and can see connections and >logic patterns with remarkable ease and clarity. I've never seen a child who >didn't respond positively to somebody who treated them as a rational being >with a usable brain, rather than as a receptable for rules and regulations >without rhyme or reason. > >There I go again, spilling the beans that produce is just a by-product here, >what I'm really growing is Revolution! Viva Community! Down with the >Oppression of children, women, workers, and men! Huzzah! Give Peas A Chance! > >Dori Green >yadda yadda (and goat slave and walking gnat feast, itchy scratchy) > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 08:01:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17618 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 08:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27592 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA02137; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:51:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02053 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:50:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.90] (pm3shep1-163-50.intrepid.net [209.190.163.50]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08142 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:50:32 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <192759d7.24498043@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 07:47:29 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Flea Beetles Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 The flea beetles attacked pretty early this year: radish tops, turnip tops, all the chinese cabbages. They'd be in the arugula if I'd dare to plant it!!! :-) Has anyone had luck controlling these beetle infestations once they have begun? I plan on using a peppermint spray shortly, but, unfortunately, I've heard fromlocal growers that this will NOT do the trick. I have also heard that there are beneficial nematodes that can 'wipe out' flea beetles over the winter. Has anyone had experience with this approach? We have them pretty bad here. Thanks -Allan Balliett =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 08:16:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17858 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 08:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03083 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 08:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA02595; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:01:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02544 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:00:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.198] [198.69.131.226] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.01) id A5722B0512; Thu, 06 May 1999 08:05:06 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:01:25 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Food Irradiation Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 This came from Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project > Unless you act by May 18, the Nuclear Industry > Will Succeed in Forcing Irradiated Food Down Our Throats! > >*** A new Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule would allow manufacturers >to sell irradiated food without any label warning consumers. By nullifying >the chief obstacle to the expanded use of radiation --consumer >opposition-- this rule would pave the way for a significant expansion of the >sale of irradiated food and give a boost to the nuclear industry. > > This would be a disaster!!! > >*** Over 550 new facilities would need to be built to irradiate various >foodstuffs if irradiation expands to according to industry projections. > >*** Food irradiation facilities have a frightening record of accidents and >other safety incidents. > >*** According to a Carnegie-Mellon study, operating irradiators just to >treat meat and poultry (much less spices, wheat, and other foodstuffs) would >be extremely risky, with a 99.7% chance of multiple major incidents at these >facilities (a major incident is defined by the Nuclear Regulatory Commission >(NRC) as "those that result in a release or spill of radioactive material, >bodily harm, or a long term shut down of the facility"). > >*** The long term health effects of eating irradiated food are unknown. >Irradiation reduces the vitamin content of food and creates new chemical >substances called radiolytic products. Some of these substances are known >carcinogens, like benzene, and others are completely new substances that >have not been tested for toxicity. > > *** ACT NOW!!! *** > ** What you can do today ** > >*** Please write to the FDA and demand that the comment period be extended >past May 18. Tell the FDA that food treated with radiation be indefinitely >labeled with the radura (the international symbol for irradiated food) and a >statement indicating it was treated with radiation. Say the absence of such >a statement would be misleading because irradiation destroys vitamins and >causes changes in sensory and spoilage qualities that are not obvious or >expected by the consumer. Please DO NOT write a general statement opposing >irradiation. The powers that be have already approved irradiation, we can >only fight to keep the public informed (A sample letter can be found below). > >*** Write your Representative and Senators, telling them to oppose the FDA >rule (a sample letter can be found below). > >*** Send this e-mail to as many concerned citizens as possible. > >When writing to FDA, refer to Docket #98N-1038, "Irradiation in the >production, processing, and handling of food". > >Send comments before May 18, 1999 to: >Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) >Food and Drug Administration >5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 >Rockville, MD 20852 >or >Send e-mail to FDADockets@oc.fda.gov and/or FDADockets@fda.gov >(Put Docket #98N-1038 in the subject line) > >NOTE: E-mail is discouraged because e-mails are often thrown out. A written >letter is the most effective means of communication. > >SAMPLE LETTER TO FDA: > >Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) >Food and Drug Administration >5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 >Rockville, Maryland 20852 > >Re: Docket No. 98N-1038, Irradiation in the Production, Processing, and >Handling of Food > >To whom it may concern: > > I support the recommendation by the Center for Science in the Public >Interest regarding labeling of irradiated foods: > > "any foods, or any foods containing ingredients that have been >treated by >irradiation, should be labeled with a written statement on the principal >display panel indicating such treatment. The statement should be easy to >read and placed in close proximity to the name of the food and accompanied >by the international symbol. If the food is unpackaged, this information >should be clearly displayed on a poster in plain view and adjacent to where >the product is displayed for sale." > > Like other labels, irradiation labels are required by the FDA to be >truthful and not misleading. I believe that the terms "treated with >radiation" or "treated by irradiation" should be retained. Any phrase >involving the word "pasteurization" is misleading because pasteurization is >an entirely different process of rapid heating and cooling. > > I recognize the radura as information regarding a material fact of food >processing. The requirement for irradiation disclosure (both label and >radura) should not expire at any time in the future. The material fact of >processing remains. Even if some consumers become familiar with the radura, >new consumers (e.g., young people, immigrants) will not be. The symbol >should be clearly understandable at the point of purchase for everyone. If >there is no label, consumers will be misled into believing the food has not >been irradiated. > > I urge you to extend the comment period past its current end date >of May 18 >to allow more concerned citizens the time to write in about this issue. >Also, please place the comments received on the Internet so that the public >can be informed about who is participating in this comment process. > >Sincerely, > > >SAMPLE LETTER TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS > >The Honorable [ ] >Washington, D.C. [ ] > >Senator/Representative [ ], > > I have recently been made aware of a frightening development at the >Food >and Drug Administration. Under pressure from food manufacturers and >supporters of the nuclear industry, the FDA is considering a rule that would >remove labeling requirements for foods treated with radiation. The public >only has until May 18 to voice its objections to this rule. Currently, any >food treated with radiation during the production process is labeled with a >symbol known as a radura (the international symbol for irradiated foods) and >either a statement saying "treated with radiation" or "treated by >irradiation." The rule before the FDA would allow manufacturers to sell any >and all irradiated foods to the consumer with nary a mention of the use of >radiation during processing. This is bad for consumers. > > Despite the fact that the FDA has determined that radiation is safe for >food, many consumers, including myself, do not want to eat foods treated >with radiation. Radiation changes the texture, taste, nutritional value, >and chemical composition of foods. Radiation creates a heretofore unseen >class of unique radiolytic products that have never been tested for their >possible carcinogenic effects on humans. These are things that I do not >want to put into my body. > > This is a clear cut issue of a consumer being able to know what is >in their >food. We know what the fat, protein, carbohydrate, and vitamin content is >in our food, why can we not know whether our food has been treated with >radiation emanating from some of the most deadly substances known to man? I >implore you, as a constituent and a friend, to write a letter to the FDA >about this issue and ask them why your constituents should be kept in the >dark about whether their food has been irradiated and why the comment period >has been so short. Enclosed you will find the letter that I wrote to the >FDA about this issue. I hope it is helpful in formulating your own >comments. > >Sincerely, From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 10:28:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19798 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21073 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11894; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:19:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08997 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:01:14 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990506140104.CWWJ11507.gigi@doby.excite.com> for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:01:04 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Flea Beetles Message-Id: <925999239.11773.426@excite.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 07:00:39 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.226 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 We use a lot of row cover on the crops you mentioned (plus eggplant, spuds, Mizuna, Mustards, cabbages, broccoli) for among other things flea beetle damage prevention. The plants don't mind the covers if you put the covers on low wire hoops. The white color reflects heat well so these cool loving plants tend not to get overheated and it takes care of the flea beetle problem if you get the covers on when the seeds/transplants go in. Covers also increase germination by keeping the soil surface wet and the soil undisturbed. Good Luck with the problem. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 10:41:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19983 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25460 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13219; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:31:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12273 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:25:28 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (14412) by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dFILa20661 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8a401e35.2462ffcb@aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:23:07 EDT Subject: Re: Flea Beetles To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 I don't grow spring brassicas here, only autumn ones. Floating row covers right from the day of planting seem to keep them off the spring greens for me, and I'm putting up a LARGE hoop house for next year's beetle-prone crops. After this year's mild dry winter they're especially bad here. Hungry, just like the rest of us! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 10:45:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20110 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27104 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13634; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:36:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13214 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:31:54 -0500 (CDT) From: JHatf18942@aol.com Received: from JHatf18942@aol.com (14373) by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dTTBa02446 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:30:09 EDT Subject: Re: Flea Beetles To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 Hello Allan We have had some success with Garlic Barrier. I have also tried planting arugula and red mustard as a trap crop. Neither is as sure a fix as row covers. Good Luck. Let me know what works for you. Greetings from the U.P. Jeff Hatfield Seeds & Spores From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 13:04:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23994 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22110 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24295; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:54:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24176 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:53:07 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (7990) by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dOKa002445 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:50:57 EDT Subject: Re: Flea Beetles To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 Hi Allan, Control is such a relative term for flea beetles. I laminate a bunch of 3 X 5 white cards. Then I stick a pin in them and spray both sides with Tangle Foot. Place the traps every 20 sq ft of bed and replace frequently for about 2 weeks. New greens get planted in a different bed. Using chicken tractors between plantings has greatly reduced all pest outbreaks for us. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm < Has anyone had luck controlling these beetle infestations once they have begun?> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 16:23:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29088 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02007 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA10036; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:16:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09955 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:15:26 -0500 (CDT) From: goodows@excite.com Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990506201508.EGGM18062.ewey@doby.excite.com> for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:15:08 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Flea Beetles Message-Id: <926021693.22182.505@excite.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 13:14:53 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.135 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 Art, We used to do that too until we ran out of yellow plastic cards (yellow, I think, works better than white for flea beetles) but had a few two liter bottles that had had Squirt in them-The squirt labels are the sceaming yellow so favored by the flea beetles.) Well we filled them up with water to keep the bottles from flying away in the incessant wind here abouts and coated them with tanglefoot (I have a 1 gallon bucket of this stuff-my husband asked what are you going to do with all that Tanglefoot? That was 4 years ago and we have 2/3 left in the bucket and use it all the time-I was hoping it would be a lifetime supply but I think it will last another 3 years at best). We found that the water heated up during the day and became even more attractive to the flea beetles and that they didn't touch the far side of the bottle so after two weeks we just turned the bottle around for another go. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris,OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 20:09:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04682 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14767 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA25012; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:01:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24920 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:00:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.94.53.205] (b3-53-205.whidbey.com [204.94.53.205]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17373 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: flea beetles,slugs, cabbage root maggots, row covers Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 We use row covers too, but this year I'm using old ones (some with holes) and noticed the flea beetles and the fly of the cabbage root maggot got in underneath the cover and are having a fine time. I tried the nematodes once, with some success. It seems such a magical process; a sponge filled with invisible beings that, if treated according to directions, will solve a large problem. The best thing we did for our flea beetle prone crops was to rotate in a major way. We have 3 growing spaces that are widely separated. I grew little that a flea beetle ( or a cabbage root maggot) would like in my nearest garden for a year, and the next year was good. This year I see damage again. I also let the birds out in the gardens over winter - geese, ducks and chickens. I'm glad to see your article about chicken tractor use Art - that may be one of the best solutions to the pest problems. Slugs are another major problem for us, but this year is somewhat better because of strategic penning of ducks along two garden borders. I also kept ducks in half of our tunnel greenhouse all winter on the theory that their body heat would help the overwintering greens. That was only semi-successful, the ammonia became a problem, but there are not many slugs left in that tunnel now. I'd like to know others' experience with row covers. I started with Reemay , went on to Agryl and finally Tufbel from Peaceful Valley. Last year I got some like Agryl that were reinforced with a web but the reinforcement threads are now coming off and hooking themselves among the salad greens - very frustrating. The Tufbel is expensive, but does seem to last unless damaged by animals. I used a piece in an area the chickens were used to working over, and they destroyed it completely. Another long expensive piece was ruined by the dog who was entranced by the fishy smelling fertilizer I had used on transplants and dug each one up through the cover. I've solved that problem by ordering fertilizer early and letting the dog sleep among the bags in the garage all winter. Reemay lasts only one or two seasons and that seems wasteful. Do any of you have experience with a strong, long lasting row cover that isn't incredibly expensive? And while we're at it - How do you keep the row covers in place? I had some nice oak stakes that were great (laid out along the sides of beds) for several years, but they got mildewed and rotton eventually. Next I used 3 ft lengths of rebar - they're pretty good, but cause a lot of trouble if lost in the grass or soil and then tilled by a tractor. Now I'm using gallon pots filled with rocks. As I transplant I pick out rocks into the pots and have handy weights. They do tip over in wind gusts though. Dirt thrown up on the sides works, but seems to decay the cover faster. Any other good ideas are welcome! Molly From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 6 20:13:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04775 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15995 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA25347; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:06:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24962 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:01:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03845 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Flea Beetles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 When I first moved to central new york I came from Portland, Oregon and though I had seen flea beetles I didn't really know what a flea beetle problem was....I learned though :-) I think row covers is the best prevention. Of course, once you've got the flea beetles that won't help. I did try paprika and/or cayenne powder mixed with corn starch and applied dry and had *some* success with that in my home garden.... I am again back in portland and have traded the flea beetles for slugs.... :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 13:14:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21116 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13698 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15153; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:06:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA14885 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:03:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905071703.MAA14885@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 133827273; Fri, 07 May 1999 17:03:14 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , "Petersons Family" Subject: Re: row covers, flea beetles and root maggots Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 12:47:22 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 We have been using Reemay ever since our dog chewed up the expensive tuffbell. The high priced stuff seemed to be really stiff, too, compared to Reemay, so really wanted hoops to keep it up and away from tender seedlings. We, too are concerned about the relatively short life of Reemay, and are intrigued with the cotton cover sold by FEDCO. It is not cheap, though, so if it doesn't last a good long time before you compost it...Anyone with experience with it? We have had good success with flea beetles and root maggots with crop rotation-we, too have some widely separated garden spots. Another control for root maggots is a sprinkling of wood ashes around the stem of the plant. It needs to be replaced after rain. Avoid TOO much wood ash, of course, or you may raise the pH to unacceptable levels. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Petersons Family > To: csa-l@prairienet.org > Subject: flea beetles,slugs, cabbage root maggots, row covers > Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 7:57 PM > > We use row covers too, but this year I'm using old ones (some with holes) > and noticed the flea beetles and the fly of the cabbage root maggot got in > underneath the cover and are having a fine time. I tried the nematodes > once, with some success. It seems such a magical process; a sponge filled > with invisible beings that, if treated according to directions, will solve > a large problem. The best thing we did for our flea beetle prone crops was > to rotate in a major way. We have 3 growing spaces that are widely > separated. I grew little that a flea beetle ( or a cabbage root maggot) > would like in my nearest garden for a year, and the next year was good. > This year I see damage again. I also let the birds out in the gardens over > winter - geese, ducks and chickens. I'm glad to see your article about > chicken tractor use Art - that may be one of the best solutions to the pest > problems. Slugs are another major problem for us, but this year is > somewhat better because of strategic penning of ducks along two garden > borders. I also kept ducks in half of our tunnel greenhouse all winter on > the theory that their body heat would help the overwintering greens. That > was only semi-successful, the ammonia became a problem, but there are not > many slugs left in that tunnel now. > I'd like to know others' experience with row covers. I started with Reemay > , went on to Agryl and finally Tufbel from Peaceful Valley. Last year I > got some like Agryl that were reinforced with a web but the reinforcement > threads are now coming off and hooking themselves among the salad greens - > very frustrating. The Tufbel is expensive, but does seem to last unless > damaged by animals. I used a piece in an area the chickens were used to > working over, and they destroyed it completely. Another long expensive > piece was ruined by the dog who was entranced by the fishy smelling > fertilizer I had used on transplants and dug each one up through the cover. > I've solved that problem by ordering fertilizer early and letting the dog > sleep among the bags in the garage all winter. Reemay lasts only one or > two seasons and that seems wasteful. Do any of you have experience with a > strong, long lasting row cover that isn't incredibly expensive? And while > we're at it - How do you keep the row covers in place? I had some nice oak > stakes that were great (laid out along the sides of beds) for several > years, but they got mildewed and rotton eventually. Next I used 3 ft > lengths of rebar - they're pretty good, but cause a lot of trouble if lost > in the grass or soil and then tilled by a tractor. Now I'm using gallon > pots filled with rocks. As I transplant I pick out rocks into the pots and > have handy weights. They do tip over in wind gusts though. Dirt thrown up > on the sides works, but seems to decay the cover faster. Any other good > ideas are welcome! > Molly > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 13:17:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21319 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14993 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:09:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15522; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:09:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15444 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 12:08:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.138.158 (sa-165-227-138-158.cruzio.com [165.227.138.158]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA20413 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 10:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3732AF13.2537@mariquita.com> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 09:14:59 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: missed pickups Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 I've enjoyed the flea beetle discussions, now the perfect, pest-free produce is in the box and ready to go out to pre-paid customers... What do you do with members who forget their boxes? Right now we have our pickup site hosts call the office with the offenders to following morning, and I call them directly. It's becoming a fair amount of work! This is not an issue for those that only have a pickup site at their farm... We have 2 days of deliveries to 14 different sites in 3 counties. from Julia, the CSA coordinator, farm wife and CEO of Mariquita Farm. -- --------------------------------------------------- Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables (831)761-3226 e-mail: csa@mariquita.com web site: http://www.mariquita.com P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 --------------------------------------------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 15:00:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23769 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22092 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 14:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23947; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:52:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23839 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 13:51:29 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (14415) by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id rYJWa16495; Fri, 7 May 1999 14:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 14:50:13 EDT Subject: Re: missed pickups To: csa@mariquita.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 In a message dated 5/7/99 10:09:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, csa@mariquita.com writes: << This is not an issue for those that only have a pickup site at their farm... >> This is also an issue, although different, for those with farm pick-ups. Do you have a policy at the bigginning of the season regarding this? We tell our folks that if they don't get it on time, we sell or donate it. We have the luxury at the farm to hold the produce until the next morning this time of year but in the heat of the summer it is not possible without more refridgeration space than we have. Suzy Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 16:33:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25730 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23314 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:26:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00746; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:25:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00588 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 15:24:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 15:24:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905072024.PAA00588@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 10389 invoked from network); 7 May 1999 20:24:43 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as001-189.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as003-224.iquest.net) (209.43.48.189) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 7 May 1999 20:24:43 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa@mariquita.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: missed pickups Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 We have the following policy on missed pickups: 1. *If they notify us in advance* that they cannot pickup then we give them these options: they get double next time, they can make it up with an equal value amount of extra items when available (like those mountains of extra tomatoes or summer squashes during the height of the harvest season) It is up to the member to keep track of missed weeks and tell us. This is all os much easier with members who have email! they can send a friend to get their share or give it to another designated member In no case will this policy cut into other members' shares--if there is not enough to go around (never happened yet) then they get nothing. NO guarantees but we try and usually succeed. 2. We always have a couple of extra weeks of harvest, early and late, where members who have missed can pick up (at the farm only) to make up for missed weeks (limited to 2 weeks) 3. Items not picked up at the farm get sold or donated to the local church. 4. Items not picked up at other sites are used or disposed of as the site's coordinator desires. If it is a long term member I go out of my way to make things up--even into the next year--but there are never any promises. In other words, you snooze, you lose. I do not call anyone about missed weeks unless it goes on for awhile and I am truly concerned that something is wrong. Things happen--deaths in the family, vacations, illness... for all of us. People who do not pick up regularly are probably not going to join the next year anyway, those that stay with you year after year are worth the extra effort of having a make up plan. This is one reason why it's best to have people come to the farm rather than deliver. At least the stuff that isn't picked up is there for you to sell or use. I do not deliver, but I do have pick up sites at retail stores, farm markets and at times, had them at restaurants. If the stuff wasn't picked up by a certain time, it became the property of the site. The restaurant used it. The other sites usually shared and/or ate it. > > At 09:14 AM 5/7/99 +0000, Julia Wiley wrote: >I've enjoyed the flea beetle discussions, now the perfect, pest-free >produce is in the box and ready to go out to pre-paid customers... > >What do you do with members who forget their boxes? > > Right now we have our pickup site hosts call the office with the >offenders to following morning, and I call them directly. It's becoming >a fair amount of work! This is not an issue for those that only have a >pickup site at their farm... We have 2 days of deliveries to 14 >different sites in 3 counties. > >from Julia, the CSA coordinator, farm wife and CEO of Mariquita Farm. >-- >--------------------------------------------------- > >Mariquita Farm >Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables >(831)761-3226 >e-mail: csa@mariquita.com >web site: http://www.mariquita.com >P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 > >--------------------------------------------------- > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 18:15:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27725 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28500 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09184; Fri, 7 May 1999 17:07:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09093 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 17:06:56 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (529) by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dKNCa04194 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1f7c82cc.2464bdbe@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:05:50 EDT Subject: Re: missed pickups To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 It's in the member agreement here: It is the member's responsibility to pick up their weekly share or arrange to have someone pick it up for them. Any shares not picked up within the posted time becomes the property of the pickup site host, to be disposed of as they wish. THERE ARE NO REFUNDS FOR SHARES NOT PICKED UP. Hasn't been a problem since we included that in the agreement. That's the only member responsibility (besides supervising their own kids on farm visits). Hosts enjoy having occasional spare produce to distribute to friends and neighbors. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 18:44:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28261 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06428 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11083; Fri, 7 May 1999 17:36:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from best.mailserver.com ([209.203.94.140]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10994 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 17:35:44 -0500 (CDT) From: To: Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:14:07 -0700 Message-ID: <43141423838475248@best.mailserver.com> Subject: MphasePressRelease Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254

Kaufman Brothers, L.P. currently has a Buy(short-term)/Buy(long-term) rating on mPhase with a 12 to 18 month price target of $16.00

  • Press= Release
  • mPhase Aligns with McKibben to Launch Digital Video and Data Delivery System; Traverser(TM) DVDDS Provides Telcos Entry into Digital= Television Marketplace


    ATLANTA, April 22 /PRNewswire/ -- mPhase Technologies Inc., a developer of high-speed Internet access, digital video delivery and data transmission, has contracted with McKibben Communications to help launch its Traverser(TM) Digital Video= and Data Delivery System (DVDDS). McKibben will provide its industry expertise in the design and construction of the initial digital headends, the acquisition of programming, and the launch of the prototype 99 channel system at Hart Telephone this May.

    The Traverser(TM) provides Telecommunications carriers entry= into the digital television marketplace, leveraging their large investment in the existing copper wire infrastructure.

    Rather than receiving revenues solely from traditional voice service, Telcos are able to generate significant additional revenue streams from high-speed Internet data access and digital television transmission (CATV generated $26 billion in the U.S. in 1997) and combat cable competition in the telephony and Internet markets. mPhase has developed the only DSL technology offering the ability to transmit digital, multi-channel television over copper wire. mPhase's proprietary technology enables Telcos to provide digital television, voice and data simultaneously, without the necessity of laying expensive fiber-to-curb or incurring the cost of upgrading the hybrid= fiber coaxial plant.

    Because the twisted copper pair is a discreet and private communication between the Telco and the single customer, the quality of service transmitted by the mPhase network= architecture is much more dependable and secure than the other multiplexed or shared technology employed in cable delivery of voice,= television or data service. Video piracy is not possible with mPhase's technology. Adverse climate, weather, geographic or other external factors don't influence the delivery of data. Furthermore, data transmission over copper via the Traverser(TM) isn't degraded by an increase in the volume of subscribers using the product simultaneously.

    The transmission of digital television over cooper wire not only benefits areas with low cable penetration and provides an alternative to CATV, but also allows an alternative to DBS for consumers who currently receive some form of multi-channel distribution. The Traverser(TM) will ultimately offer up to 400 channels, compared to an average of 59 channels offered by CATV and 175 offered by DBS in 1997.

    mPhase's Traverser(TM) provides digital television with no prior geographic specifications other than a phone line. DBS subscribers need a clear view of the southwest horizon, which prevents many urban and other geographically limited residents from accessing DBS. DBS also lacks the ability to transmit local broadcast programming, while the Traverser(TM) enables Telcos to capture off-air and local broadcasts in their broadcast line-up.=

    Subsidiary mPhaseTV.net, an integrator and aggregator of both digital television programming and Internet content, provides content for the Telcos who install the Traverser(TM) DVDDS system. Programming can be customized by each Telco to meet the needs of its customers for local programming, ethnic channels, special interest or preferred movie packages. Internet access is provided through a proprietary mPhase web site, which consumers access through an mPhaseTV.net service provider. This unique package of Internet and television content provides Telcos with= a line-up of television programming available on a turnkey basis and a direct gateway to the Internet through the mPhase portal. Subscribers can conveniently pay for Internet access, digital television and phone line in a single billing option.

    A 4-channel system is currently running at Hartwell, Georgia-based Hart Telephone Company, an independent Telco leading the nation in advances in telecommunications and innovative approaches to traditional telecom delivery. Los Angeles-based McKibben Communications provides global television program origination and distribution, along with on-going services to the DTH and Cable industries and private networks. Services include conditional access control, scrambling= services, conversion to digital platforms and corporate communications.=

    For more information, contact mPhase Technologies at= 203-838-2741 or McKibben Communications on 818-678-2001. Visit mPhase at=
    http://www.mphasetech.com and http://www.mphasetv.net.= Visit McKibben Communications at http://www.mckibben.com.

    For more= information try these links.

  • Kaufman Bros., L.P. Report - 1 | Kaufman Bros., L.P. Report - 2 | mPhase Technologies, Inc. | Value Finder, Inc.
  • Disclaimer:

    This publication contains forward-looking statements within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933 and Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934. The Company's actual results could differ materially from those set forth in the forward-looking statements, and may not= be construed as investment advice. This is not a solicitation to= buy or sell securities and this does not purport to be complete analysis of the company mentioned. Investing in securities is speculative and carries a high degree of risk. Past performance does not guarantee future results. Readers should consult with their own independent tax, business and financial advisers with respect to any investment, including any contemplated investment in the advertised company. All information contained in this advertisement should be independently Investigated. Investigate and fully understand all risks before investing. This= adversarial contains forward-looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties including, but not limited to, quarterly fluctuations in results, the management of growth, competition and other risks detailed in the company&#146;s SEC filings. Actual results may differ materially from such information set forth information set forth herein.

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    Value Finder, Inc publishes information regarding selected companies involved in many different industries, which those interested in these companies may use as information relating to their interests or investments. Many companies featured by Value Finder, Inc are clients of Value Finder, Inc., which receives compensation for assistance in handling public relations and shareholder relations. Comments in Value Finder, Inc publications are the observations of Value Finder, Inc and contain sincere opinions on values and opportunities. They are not intended to be recommendations to buy, hold, or sell securities. Value Finder, Inc, as to accuracy and completeness derives most information in our media from the subject companies, without independent verification. Some of the subject companies are clients compensating Value Finder, Inc for various services it provides. Value Finder, Inc endeavors to research the industry and obtain independent views in preparing its publications, but there is no assurance of accuracy. Value Finder, Inc does not recommend, warrant or guaranty the success of any action taken in reliance on statements made in Value Finder, Inc publications. Investments in Internet companies are generally deemed to be highly speculative and to involve substantial risk, making it appropriate for readers to consult with professional investment advisors and to make independent investigations before acting on information published by Value Finder, Inc. The Internet industry is changing with great speed, making it appropriate to update information frequently, which Value Finder, Inc cannot undertake to assure. Value Finder, Inc owners, employees, writers, their families and associates may have investments in companies featured in Value Finder, Inc publications and may elect to sell these investments or buy additional investments in these companies at any time. The following companies featured in Value Finder, Inc publications have compensated Value Finder, Inc. for public relations and shareholder relations services in the last 12 months with= payment in cash, stock, and options which, at the time of engagement was not valued at more than $50,000: Focal Corporation, K & V Equities, Inc. In addition, Value Finder Inc, the publisher of this newsletter and its officers, employees, and consultants are believed to own (through share purchases on the open market or via private placement or direct public offerings) no more than 300,000 shares of Focal Corporation, mPhase Technologies, Inc.= We encourage our readers to invest carefully and read the information available at the web sites of the Securities and Exchange Commission ("SEC") at http://www.sec.gov/ and the National Association of Securities Dealers ("NASD") at http://www.nasd.com/. Readers can review all public filings by companies at the SEC's EDGAR page. The NASD has published information on how to invest carefully at its web site. Permission to use, copy and distribute the materials contained in these web pages without= fee is granted, provided that our copyright notice appears in all copies and that our name not be used in publicity pertaining to distribution of the information without our specific written consent. Here, at Value Finder, Inc., the Internet is our passion. We work hard covering the Internet industry on a minute-to-minute basis so you don't have to. We love to live, eat, breath, and sleep Internet 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year (366 in Leap Year) so if you ever have any questions about anything listed on this publication, send us an e-mail or write to us via snail mail and we will get back to= you.

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    From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 20:04:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29411 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 20:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28078 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 19:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15403; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:54:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15339 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:54:03 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (8074) by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dIJa004194 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 19:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5b9d6c1a.2464d6ef@aol.com> Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 19:53:19 EDT Subject: Re: Shameless Plug: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 << What's a chicken tractor? >> Thanks for asking Garth, The lead article of the May issue of "Growing For Market" is about chicken tractors for layers. Joel Salatin has written a book about chicken tractors for broilers. A fellow in Pennsylvania has made a chicken tractor that the chickens move to greener pastures themselves. Basically, using chicken tractors with produce growing operations creates a multiply symbiotic relationship between livestock and crops that is helpful in small growing areas. Call (800) 307 8949 to subscribe to "Growing for Market". It is a must read for small and medium size growers. Joel Salatin's book can be purchased through Acres USA (800) 355-5313 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 22:23:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00902 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 22:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02643 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 22:15:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA21672; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:15:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21603 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:15:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA09375; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:14:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-154.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.154) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009363; Fri May 7 21:14:08 1999 Message-ID: <010501be98f8$2798f6c0$7fff6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: chicken tractor Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 22:11:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 As I understand it "tractor" is used because the chickens "work" ie eating bugs. Pictures a floorless large cage, the chickens are contained but are eating whats on the ground. It keeps them safe, and your veg. safe, yet they get to enjoy the grass etc. We are getting a couple of sheep in a couple of weeks. Due to coyote problem the gals will have to stay close. We are considering some sort of portable pen arrangement. I am already looking around the place at spots to place them so they can "mow" :) Beth ><< What's a chicken tractor? >> >Thanks for asking Garth, > >The lead article of the May issue of "Growing For Market" is about chicken >tractors for layers. Joel Salatin has written a book about chicken tractors >for broilers. A fellow in Pennsylvania has made a chicken tractor that the >chickens move to greener pastures themselves. Basically, using chicken >tractors with produce growing operations creates a multiply symbiotic >relationship between livestock and crops that is helpful in small growing >areas. > >Call (800) 307 8949 to subscribe to "Growing for Market". It is a must read >for small and medium size growers. Joel Salatin's book can be purchased >through Acres USA (800) 355-5313 > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 7 23:00:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01255 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 23:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13098 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 22:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA23506; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:53:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com ([208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA23451 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:52:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([207.38.252.50]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 7 May 1999 22:39:24 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990507194618.00c2479c@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:46:29 +0000 To: "Dan Hook" , , From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: chicken tractor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 Definitely interested in more information about chicken tractors. We plan on rolling out a few this year, to work back pests and post-harvest debris. The one thing that puzzles me about the concept is this: If there is no floor, how do you move the tractor around the field and avoid catching toes, feet and legs under the tractor as it gets dragged to a new spot? Does anyone know of a book with good drawings and information about capacity, food/water containers, etc.? The difference between using layers versus meat birds? And somewhat related, what species of ducks or geese are best for in-row pest control? Looking for a breed that won't damage crops but will eat beetles, slugs, etc. if allowed to free range. Thanks in advance for any leads or information. -- Jeff The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 10:11 PM 5/7/99 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: >As I understand it "tractor" is used because the chickens "work" ie eating >bugs. Pictures a floorless large cage, the chickens are contained but are >eating whats on the ground. It keeps them safe, and your veg. safe, yet >they get to enjoy the grass etc. We are getting a couple of sheep in a >couple of weeks. Due to coyote problem the gals will have to stay close. >We are considering some sort of portable pen arrangement. I am already >looking around the place at spots to place them so they can "mow" :) Beth > > >><< What's a chicken tractor? >> >>Thanks for asking Garth, >> >>The lead article of the May issue of "Growing For Market" is about chicken >>tractors for layers. Joel Salatin has written a book about chicken >tractors >>for broilers. A fellow in Pennsylvania has made a chicken tractor that the >>chickens move to greener pastures themselves. Basically, using chicken >>tractors with produce growing operations creates a multiply symbiotic >>relationship between livestock and crops that is helpful in small growing >>areas. >> >>Call (800) 307 8949 to subscribe to "Growing for Market". It is a must >read >>for small and medium size growers. Joel Salatin's book can be purchased >>through Acres USA (800) 355-5313 >> >> > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 07:36:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05335 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA00918 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA08522; Sat, 8 May 1999 06:27:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08469 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 06:27:14 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (576) by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dWVTa06455 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8c4f744a.2465794f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 07:26:07 EDT Subject: Re: chicken tractor To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 I've found that hog or cattle panels work very well as livestock "tractors" and portable lawn mowers. Garden twine or some of that spare baling twine (where did THAT stuff come from, I've been buying wired bales for the past three years) can be used to macrame a net in the lower sections of a cattle panel so that kids and lambs don't go roaming, and tarps or wire or even additional panels can be placed over the top, depending on what you want to keep in. I have alpine goats, great climbers and jumpers, but they're usually happy to stay put in a 16x16 "corral". For chickens and geese I cut the panels and "work" them as 8x8 or 8x4 tractors. They're especially handy for preparing new seedbeds on my 4x50 raised beds. First I plant a "chicken crop" of millet and buckwheat, which also happens to suppress weeds. Then on goes the 4x8 chicken tractor with six birds, a waterer hanging from the roof, a toss of corn, and a bamboo screen so they have access to shade. The girls seem to appreciate their vacation from my two horny-toad roosters. The tractor gets moved every day or two, and within a few days the whole bed is ready to be direct-seeded. The six workers go back to the open pasture for another vacation when the bed is done, and if I'm starting another bed I just catch another six (different) workers. This way I don't have to be too concerned about providing full nutrition, mineral supplements, etc.; if anything is lacking in the confined area for 5-7 days it's doubtful that any permanent damage will be done. In the pasture and coop areas they have free-choice minerals, crushed oyster shell, dusting areas with diatomaceous earth, specially-seeded herb patches, and even a little pond for water-bathing. My chickens would smile if they only had lips. I like using the panels because they can be covered easily with screens, sheets, tarps, even chicken wire "skirts" so that new chicks can't make a jailbreak or plastic "skirts" to block winds but let sunlight through. It's easy to insert a pole perch at different levels and lash it in place. The activity inside the tractor keeps my livestock guardian dog entertained for hours at a time and he doesn't have to work so hard at keeping track of the pesky things. Hog and cattle panels sell around here for $17.99 on regular price, and just about every other month can be found on special sale for $11.99 each in 16-foot sections. Cattle panels have larger openings but are 48" high, hog panels keep small animals in better but are only 36" high. Like everything else on the farm, corrals can be moved by one person but for some strange reason it's four times easier to do it with two people. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 07:42:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05365 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01877 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA08713; Sat, 8 May 1999 06:30:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08673 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 06:30:08 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (576) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dKFYa07564 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 07:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <67989290.246579eb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 07:28:43 EDT Subject: Re: chicken tractor To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 In a message dated 5/7/99 10:53:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jherr@thestreet.com writes: << what species of ducks or geese are best for in-row pest control? Looking for a breed that won't damage crops but will eat beetles, slugs, etc. if allowed to free range. >> Good luck. What they don't rip up and eat, they crush flat with their big clumsy flat feet. I like ducks and will raise Muscovies again, but never again will they free range. My garden and my front porch (don't ask) will never recover 100% from their forays. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 13:55:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08421 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21131 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22293; Sat, 8 May 1999 12:43:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA22194 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 12:42:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 574 invoked from network); 8 May 1999 17:42:00 -0000 Received: from a48-02-46.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.110) (216.26.11.110) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 8 May 1999 17:42:00 -0000 Message-ID: <37347948.6173@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 10:50:04 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DGreen47@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: chicken tractor References: <67989290.246579eb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 We rotate ducks (2-3 dozen) and chickens (a few) free-range through beds between crops. Scheduling can be fun - we grow and deliver to 75 households 50 weeks a year. Our main problem is slugs (Oregon's state bird), but with roving ducks the devastating problem drops to a simple irritant. Our duck flock is mixed Indian Runner and Welsh Harlequin. Great grazers, good layers, and we get enough eggs to pay for supplemental feed - the eggs sell wholesale to 2 local stores at $2.40 a dozen. We are the only duck egg suppliers in the area and can't supply the two stores that want to carry them. Duck eggs can often be eaten by people who can't eat chicken eggs - the proteins are different. We do enclose the birds at night to protect them from skunks, possoms, racoons and coyotes. The structure is a simple metal roofed post building with chicken wires sides and floor. We keep the floor covered with straw. Then the old straw (with added bird manure) is used for mulch in the orchard, helping to complete the carbon cycle. A good source of information and day-old as well as grown birds (geese and ducks) is Holderreads' Waterfowl Farm & Preservation Center, P.O. Box 492, Corvallis, Oregon 97339, (541) 929-5338. Write them for a caralog. This is a great source for hearty heirloom breeds and practical information. Dave Holderread has written two very good books: "The Book of Geese - A complete guide to raising the home flock" and "Raising the home duck flock". We highly recommend them both. You might also find these books interesting and useful: "Ducks and Geese in your backyard - A beginner's guide" by Rick & Gail Luttman and (as others have mentioned) Chicken Tractor - The gardener's Guide to Happy Hens and Healthy Soil" by Andy Lee Good growing! Will CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust Starting some time next week, see our web page at wwww.osalt.org Look it over and let us know web sites you would like to see linked to at "other sites of interest" From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 14:24:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08699 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 14:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28743 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 14:16:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23388; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:08:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23340 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7358 invoked from network); 8 May 1999 18:08:11 -0000 Received: from a48-02-46.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.110) (216.26.11.110) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 8 May 1999 18:08:11 -0000 Message-ID: <37347F6C.5833@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 11:16:18 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa@mariquita.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: missed pickups References: <3732AF13.2537@mariquita.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 We gave up on on-farm pickup last year. Missed pickups was only part of the reason. We are located halfway between Portland and Salem in Oregon. We are about 30-45 minutes from either, depending on where in those cities you start. Last year we expanded our season to all year instead of June to October, which is what most of the other CSAs in the Portland Metro area do. We balanced the wear and tear on our driveway (particularly in the winter - we get 45-65 inches of rain here, most between September and May), the staff time to set up and handle pick-up, the hassles from those who "will be just a few minutes late" and show up two hours later, and those who "just this once" want to pick up their share two days late, and pick-up becomes major management hassle. I have always been the one to insist that we encourage people to come to the farm. I was finally pursuaded that delivery makes more sense. From a time standpoint it's easier - it takes 2 six-hour days to deliver to the doors of our 75 Harvest Shareholders in our GMC van (with rear air conditioning), it takes less time to fill 75 boxes than to set up and sign the 15-20 different itemas we have each week. From an ecological stndpoint it's sound - 1 vehicle driving about 250 miles a week instead of 60-70 vehicles travelling 40-50 miles each. And the wear and tear on our van is much cheaper than the wear and tear on our driveway (1,000 feet long, all gravel - not to mention repairing the soft, muddy shoulders people insist on getting stuck in trying to pass each other), and our walk in cooler. I think it was a very good change for us. Harvest Shareholders seem happy with it, too. Some words of caution: we went to front door delivery instead of drop-off points because setting up drop-off points is time consuming and CSAs around here have convinced us it is almost as munc hassle at on-farm pick-up. We have much more control this way, and are dealing directly with each household. We have, however, created a new problem: some people seem incapable of remembering to set out their empty boxes for pick-up on the next delivery. We use large Rubbermaid boxes with snap on lids - they are easy to keep clean and, once chilled (hence the air condition van), keep food very cool and fresh until brought inside up by Harvest Shareholder who work during the day. We do have weekly (Saturday) volunteer work days on the farm which draw a number of people, as well as two celebrations annually - one in June, one in September. Hope this information gives food for thought, Will CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 14:58:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09430 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 14:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06114 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 14:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA24853; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.montana.com (paw.montana.com [199.2.139.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24798 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:49:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from john (mso1-17.montana.com [208.4.224.17]) by mail.montana.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA25453; Sat, 8 May 1999 12:50:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199905081850.MAA25453@mail.montana.com> X-Sender: fletcher@mail.montana.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 12:48:26 -0600 To: osalt@teleport.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Fletcher Subject: Will on missed pickups In-Reply-To: <37347F6C.5833@teleport.com> References: <3732AF13.2537@mariquita.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 That was an excellent analysis of the missed-pickup issue, Will. Thanks for sharing it (and your resolution of the problem) so fully. John Fletcher PO Box 8381 Missoula, MT 59807 (406)721-4269 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 17:52:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11001 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22653 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01718; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:42:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01671 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 16:42:25 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (576) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id lLMRa10989; Sat, 8 May 1999 17:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 17:40:40 EDT Subject: Re: Shameless Plug: To: igg@igg.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 << Hey! Do you work 'with' Growing for Market?>> Aaah gee Allan, I write articles about my more positive experiences in learning how to grow produce on small acreage. Growing for Market (GFM) publishes some of them because it serves their readership. The GFM publication is one of several that have helped me a lot as a small grower. Later this summer, they will run an article about composting and compost teas that I wrote. So, I guess I do work with GFM. I like working with organizations rather than for them. I hope this helps.... Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 8 21:07:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13215 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 21:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06414 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 20:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA09162; Sat, 8 May 1999 19:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout3-int.prodigy.net (pimout3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.211]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA09083 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 19:57:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB104-07.splitrock.net [209.156.66.99]) by pimout3-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA54326; Sat, 8 May 1999 20:57:08 -0400 Message-Id: <199905090057.UAA54326@pimout3-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , Subject: Re: Flea Beetles Date: Sat, 8 May 1999 20:42:48 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 forgive the ignorance, but what's tanglefoot?? and garlic barrier? thanks for the help noreen willhelm spring run farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 00:14:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA14883 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18484 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA16312; Sat, 8 May 1999 23:05:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16268 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 23:05:23 -0500 (CDT) From: MNdeadhead@aol.com Received: from MNdeadhead@aol.com (4422) by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dJKNa13996; Sun, 9 May 1999 00:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8dca82a2.24666313@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 00:03:31 EDT Subject: Re: missed pickups To: DGreen47@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 After reading all the responses to missed pickups, I think Dori's answer is the best for all involved. It puts the burden on the consumer, which is where it should be - hey, if we weren't part of a CSA, we'd have the responsibility to go to the co-op or grocery to purchase our goods. i am a site host in St. Paul, MN. At the beginning of each season, I am provided a phone list of folks who pick up at my house. As a courtesy, I do call members the following day who have not picked up their shares (but this is my doing and not expected from my farm). Sometimes they call back and are grateful - they forgot, their car broke down, whatever, and I keep it refrigerated til they can come. but if i get no response (90% of the time), i donate the share to friends or neighbors. I do not believe the burden for phone calls, make-ups, or any other special arrangements should be the responsibility of the farmers. y'all have more than enough work to do to concern yourselves with this. i doubt many members would expect it, and know they certainly wouldn't from a grocer! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 10:31:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21973 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28532 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02157; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:20:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02033 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:18:32 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (8051) by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dINHa10991 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:17:39 EDT Subject: Re: missed pickups To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 In a message dated 5/9/99 12:03:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MNdeadhead writes: << Dori's answer is the best for all involved >> Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I feel moved to point out that with CSA the one constant seems to be that there is never just one "best answer". I'm investigating alliances with the few remaining "neighborhood" stores, to provide store pickups with my laundry baskets of produce residing in their cool rooms. It would provide a draw away from the mega-stores and would sure increase convenience for my CSA members! I'd buy laundry baskets at the Dollar Store because they're so obviously different from any other containers in the store. And when (sigh, not if) CSA members lose them, well, they only cost $1. If the neighborhood store managers aren't smart enough to notice the advantages of such an alliance (including the favorable publicity), maybe the mega-store managers will be. My philosophical heart is with the little guys -- but let's face it, if what I'm doing here ain't economically sustainable then I shouldn't call it "sustainable agriculture". Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable LIving Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 10:35:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21995 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29340 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02497; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:26:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA02430 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:26:01 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (8051) by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dHXQa27691 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <288e2723.2466f499@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:24:25 EDT Subject: The Voice of Experience To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 Permanent Markers ain't. At least not on white plastic pot-stickers put outside and hosed down or rained on. I now have about 50 flats of Mystery Plants. Several are obviously Love Lies Bleeding, not a problem. The rest are one of a guess of about 20 different varieties. Tomato, yup, easy. Which one of the ten varieties? Ummm....guess we'll find out when we get tomatoes. >From here on, I'm number-coding all flats with acrylic paint and cross-referencing them on the computer. Most of these seedlings were for my own use. I know what's been planted and eventually I'll figure it out and get the final beds properly marked before harvest. So as disasters go, may they all be as minor as this one! The pen manufacturer is going to get one heck of a snotty letter, though. Dori Green The Royally Annoyed From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 11:05:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22279 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07505 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03540; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:56:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03492 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:56:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA20292 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:55:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-54.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.54) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020274; Sun May 9 09:55:00 1999 Message-ID: <007001be9a2b$a0a52000$36fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Farm celebrations and pumkins Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:52:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 Will wrote: >> have weekly (Saturday) volunteer work days on the farm which draw >a number of people, as well as two celebrations annually - one in June, >one in September. > >Hope this information gives food for thought, > >Will >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > >We have, due to our ad. approx. 31 members! Our upper point was supposed to be 30, however we keep getting a few deposits trickling in from people who took flyers "to think about it". I painfully had to tell two very nice ladies that they'd have to be on the waiting list(I always thought it would be fun to have a waiting list but its hard especially when the people are so nice "I know we called late, good luck") Anyway we now have enough people to plan a celebration, how do you folks work it? We have an idea for the fall, we are planting our pumpkins way down the field and we are going to hay ride down to get them (the horse are finally working). If the weather cooperates my husband estimates we could have 2,000 pumpkins! We were thinking of another ad "Green Hill Farm Pumpkins Hay Ride", but with the success of the above ad I'm afraid the entire state will show up, then we'd annoy people not please them. Maybe appointment only hay ride etc. Oh well as I said before and exciting and scary time here at Green Hill Farm. We planted potatoes yesterday had some help from a couple what a difference form last year it went much quicker. These were volunteers, they want to learn, they hope to someday buy a farm and have a garden. Thank-you Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 11:08:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22298 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08413 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03730; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:59:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03687 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:59:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA20559; Sun, 9 May 1999 09:58:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-54.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.54) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020550; Sun May 9 09:58:27 1999 Message-ID: <007b01be9a2c$1c4b7ba0$36fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: The Voice of Experience Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 10:56:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 Just a chuckle, but think of it this way. In some seed catalogs they sell mixtures, so you now have a flower mixture, and tomato mixture. Beth -----Original Message----- From: DGreen47@aol.com To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sunday, May 09, 1999 10:26 AM Subject: The Voice of Experience >Permanent Markers ain't. At least not on white plastic pot-stickers put >outside and hosed down or rained on. > >I now have about 50 flats of Mystery Plants. Several are obviously Love Lies >Bleeding, not a problem. The rest are one of a guess of about 20 different >varieties. Tomato, yup, easy. Which one of the ten varieties? >Ummm....guess we'll find out when we get tomatoes. > >>From here on, I'm number-coding all flats with acrylic paint and >cross-referencing them on the computer. > >Most of these seedlings were for my own use. I know what's been planted and >eventually I'll figure it out and get the final beds properly marked before >harvest. > >So as disasters go, may they all be as minor as this one! > >The pen manufacturer is going to get one heck of a snotty letter, though. > >Dori Green The Royally Annoyed > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 11:43:27 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22525 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18631 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 11:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05219; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:34:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailhost.nemaine.com (nemaine.com [205.139.6.148]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05168 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 10:33:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nemaine.com [206.97.116.54] by mailhost.nemaine.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.03) id A90AB5D00C0; Sun, 09 May 1999 11:26:02 EST Message-ID: <3735AB9B.80716DDD@nemaine.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 11:36:59 -0400 From: Steve & Robin Follette Organization: Thyme For Ewe Farm X-Sender: "Steve & Robin Follette" <@nemaine.com> (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en]C-gatewaynet (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA Subject: Baskets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 Watson Trading Company in Michigan has light weight baskets that are inexpensive. No minimum order, wholesale prices. 800-942-5371 Robin-- Thyme For Ewe Farm Pastured pork and poultry http://www.nemaine.com/organic From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 13:57:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23589 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 13:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14652 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 13:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10469; Sun, 9 May 1999 12:48:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10397 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 12:47:21 -0500 (CDT) From: SSmedley@aol.com Received: from SSmedley@aol.com (14424) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dLBYa26070 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 13:46:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <82e7461.246723dc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 13:46:04 EDT Subject: Corn Maze To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 Hello, I hope this is going to the list. I purchased a new computer and didn't get all my addresses switched... Oh well time will tell. My husband and I are getting ready to plant a Corn Maze for our pumpkin patch this fall. Has anyone here ever done this? What are the pitfalls and what suggestions do you have? We are going to do a basic one for young children then a complicated one for teens and adults. Also since I have your attention, does anyone have a wholesale source for food dehydrators that we could sell through our farm stand? Thank you in advance..... Sharon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 18:21:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26822 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00284 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA21240; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:07:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21183 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:06:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990509220632.FFLM14444.gigi@ringo.excite.com> for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 15:06:32 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Farm celebrations and pumkins Message-Id: <926287558.25466.993@excite.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 15:05:58 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.137 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 On Sun, 9 May 1999 10:52:55 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: > Will wrote: > >> have weekly (Saturday) volunteer work days on the farm which draw > >a number of people, as well as two celebrations annually - one in June, > >one in September. > > > >Hope this information gives food for thought, > > > >Will > >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm > >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > > > >We have, due to our ad. approx. 31 members! Our upper point was supposed to > be 30, however we keep getting a few deposits trickling in from people who > took flyers "to think about it". I painfully had to tell two very nice > ladies that they'd have to be on the waiting list(I always thought it would > be fun to have a waiting list but its hard especially when the people are so > nice "I know we called late, good luck") Anyway we now have enough people to > plan a celebration, how do you folks work it? We have an idea for the fall, > we are planting our pumpkins way down the field and we are going to hay ride > down to get them (the horse are finally working). If the weather cooperates > my husband estimates we could have 2,000 pumpkins! We were thinking of > another ad "Green Hill Farm Pumpkins Hay Ride", but with the success of the > above ad I'm afraid the entire state will show up, then we'd annoy people > not please them. Maybe appointment only hay ride etc. Oh well as I said > before and exciting and scary time here at Green Hill Farm. We planted > potatoes yesterday had some help from a couple what a difference form last > year it went much quicker. These were volunteers, they want to learn, they > hope to someday buy a farm and have a garden. Thank-you Beth > We are planning monthly potlucks this season starting the 21st of this month. I printed out a calendar of things that will be happening and kind of open to the public (I am selective as to who gets a calander) In september were are having a farm tour that will be very open to the public. It will consist of a walking tour of the gardens, compost areas and poultry pens and than a pot luck dinner to follow and if folks want to hang out we will have a bonfire and look at the stars. the tour is a pretty comprehensive one where we explain what is planted, why we planted and techniques we use. We will also have a board with pictures of CSA members having big fun in the gardens and a sheet for folks to give us their name and address/email/phone. This is our first time doing this for more than 10 people and doing some advertising etc. We will have help from our local OEFFA Chapter in getting the word out and hopefully we can get some CSA members to help us put a bit of spit and polish on the place (mowing,actually haying the lawn with the sickle bar, putting signs on the plots to ID them etc) So far we have had lots of quality CSA help and deliveries don't start for another month. We got a great ,if small, group of members. Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 18:46:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27134 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06167 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA22485; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:37:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA22442 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:37:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 20852 invoked from network); 9 May 1999 22:37:18 -0000 Received: from a48-01-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.42) (216.26.11.42) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 22:37:18 -0000 Message-ID: <37361000.4C89@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 15:45:24 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FranksFarm@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA References: <815c6fd2.24662f8d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 FranksFarm@aol.com wrote: "hello Will, Good luck with your CSA. Sounds like just the size for me...75 -100 shareholders at max ...unless I can get others to join or coop. We just purchased a farm in south central Kentucky. And we are considering a start up CSA next season for perhaps 20 shares until I know more about the soil, climate, and what I can grow well etc. Love to hear more about your equipment...seeding, transplanting etc. Do you have a greenhouse? Would you perhaps have a sample production schedule just to give me an idea of variety, and quantities planted. Out your way you probably have a long season. Any tips, advice, and encoragement would be appreciated.(BG) Best wishes. Frank" Frank (and all), Conratulations on getting land! CSA at Natural Harvest Farm is actually a research project, part of Oregon Sustainable Agricluture Land Trust (OSALT) efforts to develop and demonstrate viable, sustainable methods of producing and distributing food, fiber and building materials. We started CSA here in 1991. 75 households seems to be the right size for a sustainable operation. Big enough so one person getting sick doesn't force us all to work 20 hour days, small enough so we don't waste a lot of time and energy on administration. Since the beginning (we were the 2nd CSA in the Portland metro area) we have encouraged sharing and cooperation among CSAs, both here and elsewhere. I was introduced to CSA at a talk given by Trauger Groh. I later met Robyn VanEn, and was on the Board of CSANA. Although we only met once face to face, we talked on the phone a number of times. I miss Robyn - she was all those wonderful things you hear said about inspired leaders, and a friend. The CSA growers around here get together a couple of times a year to share ideas and solutions. We also get together to do an annual "tomato turn-on" each year at the Portland Farmers Market, where we provide 50-100 varieties of tomatoes for people to sample. Over the years we have seen a number of CSAs come and go. Some growers were too inexperienced. Many had no business skills and didn't want to learn them. Others were simply overwhelmed by the amount of hard work involved in growing food week in and week out. One lost his land - he was renting - but has restarted near Eugene (about 100 miles south of here in another market). There are about a dozen active CSAs around here this year (out of about two dozen who have started up over the last 8 years). We are larger than most but smaller than two (who have recently expanded). I think we will find they will get smaller next year, We have found that larger than about 75 is too large - the disadvantages outweigh the benefits. As for equipment - we do almost everything with hand tools. It isn't the initial cost of the equipment - it's the maintenance. Maintaining power equipment is costly, time consuming and always come as an emergency at a time when you need to be doing something else. We do have a greenhouse. 30' by 48', double plastic cover with air blown in between. Passive solar heating (66 55-gallon food grade plastic barrels used as work benches). 4' florescent light fixtures adjustable for height used with seedlings. We also use a little over half of the floor space for winter growing. We are expermenting with a "lettuce tube" - a single wall plastic covered greenhouse 20' by 144'. This covers 8 of our standard raised beds (3'4" by 66') with some work space. We're using it to keep the inside temperature above freezing during the winter so we can keep delivering greens all year long. So far, so good. It gives us about 3-5 degrees above outside temperatures, which is good enough here to avoid freezing the leaves. Our season is supposedly 210 days a year. Some years that's true. 1998-1999 was a disaster: warmest May in history followed by the wettest June (and very cool) followed by a typically hot July. Everything bolted. We didn't recover until late September. Then we had 5 days in December where it never got above 29 degrees. Not bad for New England, but unheard of here. We lost all our root crops. Put a heck of a dent in our winter deliveries. It was a great opportunity to educate our Harvest Shareholders about the vagaries of weather and it's influence on crop production. As for our crops/planting schedule: last season we grow 401 varieties of veggies, fruits, grapes, berries and herbs. Most were annuals, about 100 varieties are perennials. We try to avoid hybrids, preferring locally grown heirlooms and open pollinted varieties. We save seed for about 15% of what we grow, and that is expanding. As part of OSALT research we are developing a handbook and computer program for running a small CSA. I've been working on the program for about 6 years. 1998-99 was the first year we used it in operations and this year (1999-2000) it is our guide for seed buying, planting, transplanting, bed allocation, harvesting etc. When the package is done it will be available to all interested parties through OSALT. For more information see our web site at www.osalt.org (it should be up next week). By best advice is this, spend your life doing what gives you joy. If that's working the soil and feeding people, CSA is a great way to do it. Pay attention - learn to look and see at the same time. Learn to listen and hear at the same time. Observe Nature - she's been doing this just fine for millions of years. When you can't figure it out, when it doesn't make sense, try to see what nature does when humans don't get in the way, and emulate that. Good growing, Will From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 18:58:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27376 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09188 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23068; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23017 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:49:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 23561 invoked from network); 9 May 1999 22:49:25 -0000 Received: from a48-01-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.42) (216.26.11.42) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 22:49:25 -0000 Message-ID: <373612D7.5C1B@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 15:57:32 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BRateaver@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: missed pickups References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 BRateaver@aol.com wrote: > > don't you have trouble with people stealing such a good box left on a doorstep Not so far. In the last year we have not lost a single box, either when delivering or when set out empty for us to pick up. We've even had people go out of town and forget to tell us and when we make the next delivery a week later the box (with the food in it) is still there. And we do deliver to ALL kinds of neighborhoods. Will CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 19:09:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27529 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12467 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23546; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:00:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23376 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 17:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25404 invoked from network); 9 May 1999 22:58:03 -0000 Received: from a48-01-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.42) (216.26.11.42) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 22:58:03 -0000 Message-ID: <373614DD.3E3F@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:06:11 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DGreen47@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: The Voice of Experience References: <288e2723.2466f499@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 DGreen47@aol.com wrote: "Permanent Markers ain't. At least not on white plastic pot-stickers put outside and hosed down or rained on. ..... Dori Green The Royally Annoyed" We use Sanford "Sharpie" markers on standard plastic stickers and on used plastic mini blinds (free at your neighborhood "window treatments" store.) The markings last 2-3 years in our climate, which is lots of rain, lots of sun, but mild temperates in the winter. We amkr them with numbers, and we color code them. (red for solanums, green for greens, etc.) We track the markers by number in our planting records. Will CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 19:26:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27723 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16026 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA24533; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:17:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA24463 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:16:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 29311 invoked from network); 9 May 1999 23:16:44 -0000 Received: from a48-01-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.42) (216.26.11.42) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 23:16:44 -0000 Message-ID: <3736193E.1479@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:24:53 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Hook CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Farm celebrations and pumkins References: <007001be9a2b$a0a52000$36fa6ed1@dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 Beth wrote: "... Anyway we now have enough people to plan a celebration, how do you folks work it? We have an idea for the fall, we are planting our pumpkins way down the field and we are going to hay ride down to get them (the horse are finally working). If the weather cooperates my husband estimates we could have 2,000 pumpkins! We were thinking of another ad "Green Hill Farm Pumpkins Hay Ride", but with the success of the above ad I'm afraid the entire state will show up, then we'd annoy people not please them. Maybe appointment only hay ride etc...." Normally the farm is not open to drop-ins, but we teach a lot of gardening and farming classes through the local community school, Master Gardeners, etc, and are constantly being asked when people can "come by and see the farm." We explain that it is a year-around working farm and we want people to be able to ask questions and talk with the growers when they come to the farm, so we restrict public visits to one day in the spring and one day in the fall. Of course, our Harvest Shareholders are welcome to drop in and help us any Saturday between mid-June and mid-September - these are our optional Harvest Shareholder work days. We have special, specific projects for these days. Harvest Shareholders are encouraged to bring the entire family (we always have something for little kids and middle kids to do as well) and any friends they wish to invite. We usually end the work time with teas and coffes and some king of snack, usually veggies from the farm. Our June day is primarily a farm tour day. We are there to answer questions. We set up a self-guided tour (people never manage to show up at a scheduled time, so we gave up on guided tours.) We have the crew there (3-5 people), and we have a lot of literature about the farm, CSA at the farm, and OSALT (the trust). Our September day is our big celebration: pot luck dinner, cider pressing, games for children and adults and, starting at dusk, story telling around a bonfire. A word of encouragement: make sure you encourage kids to tell their stories - little kids through teenagers. It may be the greatest source of wisdom you will be in contact with all year! And there are few things in life as satisfying as the amazement in parents' eyes when they hear their children talk of important things in amazing ways. Parents often remark later that they see their kids with new respect. Will CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 19:59:11 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28031 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22905 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26119; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:48:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25808 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:43:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked from network); 9 May 1999 23:43:13 -0000 Received: from a48-01-41.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.41) (216.26.11.41) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 May 1999 23:43:13 -0000 Message-ID: <37361F73.5211@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 09 May 1999 16:51:17 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Job opening Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 Do you know of anyone interested in working with us on our CSA? We are particularly looking for someone with CSA experience who is interested in working toward partnership or eventual management of our CSA operation. We have a 20-acre certified organic farm upon which we grow about 4 acres of vegetables, fruits and herbs. We are located in the North Willamette Valley, one of the most fertile agricultural valleys in the world. We are near Canby, about half way between Portland and Salem, Oregon. We are not looking for an intern, but an employee who can take a responsible role in an ongoing 75-household year-around CSA. We are not able to offer housing, and it would be best if this person had their own car. Will & Sue CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun May 9 20:01:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28077 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 20:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23501 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26398; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:53:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from big.seorf.ohiou.edu (ab210@big.seorf.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.252]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26006 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 18:47:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from ab210@localhost) by big.seorf.ohiou.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA27845 for csa-l@prairienet.org; Sun, 9 May 1999 19:47:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Kevin Smyth Message-Id: <199905092347.TAA27845@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Subject: drip irrigation To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 19:47:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 friends - Just turned on the water to our newly installed drip system in our 3 acre vegetable patch. I have it divided by valves into three zones. I'd like to be able to water even smaller areas within each zone, but I already have the tee-tape down and hooked up, so my question is this: anyone out there know how to "shut off" the individual tee tape lines? Looks to me like I could just crimp the lines somehow, but I fear I may damage the lines. Anybody? thanks much, Kevin Smyth ab210@seorf.ohiou.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 10 00:49:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02072 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02535 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 00:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA09336; Sun, 9 May 1999 23:41:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from peak.org (denisont@PEAK.ORG [198.68.22.17]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA09266 for ; Sun, 9 May 1999 23:40:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (denisont@localhost) by peak.org (8.8.5/8.6.7) with SMTP id VAA06796; Sun, 9 May 1999 21:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 21:41:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Denison X-Sender: denisont@kira To: Kevin Smyth cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: drip irrigation In-Reply-To: <199905092347.TAA27845@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 We are using layflat headers, if we want to shut off a block of lines, we disconect the header and replace it with a short piece of layflat with an end plug. To shut off one or a few tee tape lines, we disconect the tape from the header and replace it with a short piece of tee tape with the end plugged. If you do this very many times, the end of the tee tape gets messed up, but it works well where you may have some crop that needs no more water which is on the same header as a crop you are still watering. The layflat can be dis/reconnected many times quite easily. Tom On Sun, 9 May 1999, Kevin Smyth wrote: > friends - Just turned on the water to our newly installed drip system in > our 3 acre vegetable patch. I have it divided by valves into three zones. > I'd like to be able to water even smaller areas within each zone, but I > already have the tee-tape down and hooked up, so my question is this: > anyone out there know how to "shut off" the individual tee tape lines? > Looks to me like I could just crimp the lines somehow, but I fear I may > damage the lines. Anybody? > > thanks much, > Kevin Smyth > ab210@seorf.ohiou.edu > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 10 12:05:18 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10719 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 12:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00146 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07061; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:52:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06984 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 10:52:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.58] (pm3shep1-163-58.intrepid.net [209.190.163.58]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA23264 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 11:52:09 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199905092347.TAA27845@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 11:49:45 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Intergalactic Garage Subject: Re: drip irrigation Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 I'm coming into irrigation tape through a roll I found in the shed, so, I've got some questions that are probably pretty basic. 1. Do I need to use a pressure regulator with drip tape? 2. I noticed that Wetzel has NO irrigation tape listed in last year's catalog: is this something I can only get parts for mail order or do some of the 'gardening' chains now retail irrigation tape? 3. AND, what's a good mail order supplier of this system? Thanks! >We are using layflat headers, if we want to shut off a block of lines, we >disconect the header and replace it with a short piece of layflat with an >end plug. To shut off one or a few tee tape lines, we disconect the tape >from the header and replace it with a short piece of tee tape with the end >plugged. If you do this very many times, the end of the tee tape gets >messed up, but it works well where you may have some crop that needs no >more water which is on the same header as a crop you are still watering. >The layflat can be dis/reconnected many times quite easily. Tom > >On Sun, 9 May 1999, Kevin Smyth wrote: > >> friends - Just turned on the water to our newly installed drip system in >> our 3 acre vegetable patch. I have it divided by valves into three zones. >> I'd like to be able to water even smaller areas within each zone, but I >> already have the tee-tape down and hooked up, so my question is this: >> anyone out there know how to "shut off" the individual tee tape lines? >> Looks to me like I could just crimp the lines somehow, but I fear I may >> damage the lines. Anybody? >> >> thanks much, >> Kevin Smyth >> ab210@seorf.ohiou.edu >> >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 11 11:13:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05452 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27852 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA21913; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:05:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gwgate.lib.iastate.edu (gwgate.lib.iastate.edu [129.186.11.21]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA21717 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:02:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Parks_Library-Message_Server by gwgate.lib.iastate.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:02:26 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:01:57 -0500 From: "Jeff Hall" To: DGreen47@aol.com, osalt@teleport.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: chicken tractor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id KAA21718 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 I apologize for being so far behind the curve, but I wanted to share the design idea for chicken tractors I've used. Take a cattle panel, arch it and connect to 2 12 ft 2x4s, and cover with chicken wire and tarp. Or double-wide it with 3 2x4s. I had a more typical tractor a couple years ago, but two dogs collapsed part of the roof and killed everyone. The arched design worked great last year, but this year I've had a smart young coon digging in, I've had to surround it with electric fence, and now something still goes under to get eggs (mink family?). The challenges never stop! Jeff Hall Interesting Times Permaculture Garden Elkhart Iowa From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 11 11:42:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06154 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07764 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA24175; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:34:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24084 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:34:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-56-150.stk.jps.net [209.142.56.150]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA28571 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 16:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3737E211.EB83610C@jps.net> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:54:04 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER #32 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------95910C5B6D9CC84987479AFF" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------95910C5B6D9CC84987479AFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry about the size of this, but I think some of you may want to sign up for this free e-mail news service. I just heard about it through a friend. It investigates what corporate agriculture : (Cargill, Monsanto, Archer Daniels Midland Co., etc.) is up to, as well as some of the resistance their conquests are facing. Viva la resistance! ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER #32 > Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:47:31 -0700 > From: "Albert V. Krebs" > > The > AGRIBUSINESS > EXAMINER Issue # 32 May 6, 1999 > > Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective > > > A.V. Krebs > Editor\Publisher > > > Editors Note > Although there is no subscription fee for THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER, > donations will, as always, be gladly accepted. One of my subscribers > says he pays $30 a year for 12 issues of a Health letter, and my > weekly will hopefully go up to 52 so he feels it is worth at least > the cost of a monthly newsletter. I hope you agree. Checks made out > to A.V. Krebs, P.O. Box 2201, Everett, Washington 98203-0201 [NOT to > "Agribusiness Examiner"] will continue to be received with much > gratitude. > > To those readers of THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER who have already sent > donations I want to express my sincere thanks for your continued > support and interest in this venture. A reminder also to those who > might wish to receive a weekly e-mail edition of THE AGRIBUSINESS > EXAMINER, please provide your NAME and E-MAIL ADDRESS. At this time > THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER is not available in printed form. > > > IBP: > COULD THIS BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END IN DAKOTA CITY ?!? > > In a major victory for the nation's independent cattle producers, > after years of legal struggles by the plaintiffs to overcome numerous > roadblocks, U.S. District Court Senior Judge, Lyle B. Strom issued an > order April 28 certifying a national "class-action" of cattle > producers against IBP (Iowa Beef Processors) > > The original lawsuit --- Pickett vs IBP --- filed in July, 1996 by ten > cattlemen plaintiffs --- Mike Callicrate, Henry Lee Pickett, Sam > Britt, Paul Horton, Jim Bower, Pat Goggins, Johnny Smith, Stayton > Weldon, Lovel Blain, and David Smith --- as representatives of the > "class," charged that IBP violated the Packers and Stockyards Act (P&S > Act). > > "The entire cattle industry has been in an economic crisis ever since > IBP and the other big packers schemed to fatten their profits by > denying producers a fair price for their cattle, "Callicrate, a St. > Francis, Kansas feedlot owner, emphasizes. "Our lawsuit contends that > the method IBP uses is to set an unfairly low price it will pay for > cattle, and when cattlemen reject that price because they will suffer > a loss, IBP slaughters, or threatens to slaughter, cattle from its > `captive supply.'" > > "This illegal strategy," he adds, "leaves cattlemen without a buyer > for their cattle. And because finished cattle must be sold quickly > while at optimum weight, cattlemen are forced to accept that low bid, > at a loss to themselves. This abusive market power profits IBP in > lowering prices paid to cattlemen while consumes continue to pay > record high prices for beef." > > The cattlemen also allege, according to their attorney Randy Beard, > that by contracting > "captive supplies" with certain preferred feedlots, the Dakota City, > Nebraska-headquartered IBP reduces its need to participate in the cash > market. As a result, he points out, these meatpacker agreements to > take ownership of cattle weeks in advance violate the anti-competitive > provisions of the P&S Act because they are entered into with the > intent of, or having the effect of, reducing the cash market price. > > Contrary to IBP's contention that low prices are the result of supply > and demand, plaintiffs point out that IBP's profits have soared to > record levels at a time when cattle producers are going bankrupt. They > say that if IBP's defense were true, there would be no reason for them > to pursue all these anti-competitive practices, and they would not > resist eliminating them. > > The lawsuit asks that the defendant IBP cease and desist from any > further illegal activities in manipulating the price of beef cattle in > violation of the P&S Act, and for compensatory and punitive damages, > fees and expenses, and any other relief that the court deems > appropriate. Plaintiffs estimate that actual damages due cattlemen > could approach multi-billions of dollars. > > Grass-roots cattlemen's organizations, individual cattlemen, national > farm groups, National Farmers Union, and a host of others concerned > about the plight of the beef industry, submitted amicus briefs to the > court supporting the plaintiffs against IBP, and urging "class-action" > status, Callicrate said. "Even Canadian cattlemen, whose market is > also dominated by IBP, supported us," he noted. > > "At one point, the court asked Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman to > write an opinion as to whether we could pursue a private lawsuit under > the P&S Act," Callicrate added. "In an extensively researched brief, > Secretary Glickman gave us the green light to press our charges > against IBP, he said that the U.S. district court was the only forum > to pursue this claim, and allowed the court to fully consider our case > and subsequent `class-action' status." > > > EU SCIENTISTS: > U.S. BEEF GROWTH HORMONE: > "CONSIDERED AS A COMPLETE CARCINOGEN" > > In a stunning May 3 report released by the European Union's (EU) > Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures the hormone 17 > beta-oestradiol -- one of six growth hormones in American beef -- was > characterized as being "considered as a complete carcinogen." > > "It exerts both tumor initiating and tumor promoting effects," the > report said. "In plain language, this means that even small additional > doses of residues of this hormone in meat, arising from its use as a > growth promoter in cattle, has an inherent risk of causing cancer." > > There was inadequate data to make a definitive finding on the other > five growth hormones used in U.S. beef, the scientific committee said. > But it said exposure to small levels of residues in meat and meat > products "carries risks." > > While the The European Commission immediately ruled out ending a > 10-year-old ban on hormone-treated beef, increasing the risk of > escalating the current trade war between the U.S. and the European > Union, U.S. trade and agriculture officials sharply criticized the > scientist's report. > > "The supposed new claims are nothing but misleading allegations," said > Peter Scher, America's trade negotiator on agricultural > matters. He called the report a "blatant attempt" by the EU to delay > abiding by its trade obligations. "If the EU does not lift this ban, > we will retaliate this summer," Scher told a Senate subcommittee. > > USDA Secretary Dan Glickman and U.S. Trade Representative Charlene > Barshefsky charged that the EU had issued "yet another misleading > report. It repeats the same unsubstantiated arguments that the EU has > already made before the World Trade Organization (WTO) panel of > experts, which were flatly rejected by the panel," they declared in a > joint statement. "The issue is the EU's refusal to comply with the WTO > rulings and its unwillingness to honor its international obligations." > > Answering the U.S. denials that there were any dangers to U.S. > exported beef to the EU the Union's commission slammed U.S. criticism > of the scientific report. In its statement, the commission accused the > U.S. of trying "to belittle the risk" identified by the scientists. > "The commission cannot understand why the U.S. has not reacted in a > more responsible way to the conclusive findings of the scientific > committee,especially as the scientists said children are most at risk > from the hormones." > > Some 90% of American cattle producers now feed hormones approved by > the Food and Drug Administration to cattle to make them grow faster > and bigger. In 1998 the WTO ruled that the EU ban on hormone-treated > beef was illegal and must be lifted by May 13. It said the EU's ban > was not supported by the proper risk analysis. > > After the WTO ruling, the EU ordered 17 studies on risks linked to the > use of hormones in meat, some of which were carried out in the U.S. > Sixteen of these have yet to be completed. The EU's recent scientific > committee report based its opinion on interim findings and the one > completed report. The document, which has been sent to Washington for > comments, said U.S. regulatory controls on the use of hormones in meat > are "deficient" and Canadian controls are "insufficient." > > Since 1989, the U.S. has exported only hormone-free beef to the EU > because of the ban. The U.S. industry has put the lost export sales at > $500 million annually. The Clinton administration is threatening to > impose 100% tariffs on more than $900 million worth of European > products in retaliation for the ban. > > > GMO CORN: > ADM, A.E. STALEY SAY NO! CARGILL SAYS YES! > > In a surprise move the nation's largest corn processor,Archer Daniels > Midland Co. (ADM), has announced that it will follow its cross-town > Decatur, Illinois competitor, the U.S.'s third largest corn processor > A.E. Staley Manufacturing Co., and will only accept corn varieties > approved by the European Union > > "ADM supports the position of the Corn Refiners Association and the > National Grain and Feed Association in regard to transgenic corn by > not participating in the commerce of the varieties that are not > approved by the EU," said ADM spokesperson Carla Miller. "If and when > the varieties are approved by the EU, we will participate in the > marketing of those grains." > > "The timing of the announcement couldn't come at a worse time," Doug > Wilson, president of the Illinois Corn Growers Association told Dow > Jones Newswires. "Most producers have their seed in their shed and > it's hard to make adjustments. We're in prime planting time." > > "Both of those products (Roundup Ready and Bt) are going to be planted > by a lot of producers," said Illinois Corn Growers Association > spokesman Mark Lambert. Asked if the announcements were bad news to > producers, Lambert replied, "Sure it is from the perception > standpoint. People are going to see that they're not accepting the > product and they're going to assume that it's something wrong with > it." > > Following initial conflicting press reports Cargill Inc., the worlds > largest grain trader, reassured U.S. corn growers that it will be > accepting delivery of genetically modified corn that has not yet been > approved for shipment to the European Union. > > After it was initially reported that Cargill had joined other industry > players in boycotting the genetically modified products, Linda Thrane, > with Cargill, reconfirmed that the company will be accepting delivery > of genetically modified corn, such as hybrids developed to withstand > post-emergent applications of certain chemicals like Monsanto's > Roundup. > > There are also some Bt corn varieties that aren't currently accepted > by the EU. The Bt variety is named for the naturally occurring > bacillus thurgiensis toxin that is lethal to corn borers and other > caterpillars. Genetically engineered to contain Bt, the plants kill > many pests as soon as they chew into the stalk. > > While Cargill is concerned about keeping the GMO product out of supply > pipelines that send processing byproducts to Europe, Thrane noted, > the company's grain buyers would be able to work with farmers to buy > the corn for domestic uses, including animal feed. > > Meanwhile, Monsanto Inc., which entered into a marketing "alliance" > with Cargill in 1998, announced that it plans to help U.S. farmers > market the genetically modified corn that has not been approved by the > EU. > > "We would like to eliminate any confusion that exists regarding > biotech seed varieties which are approved for export," the company > said in a letter to producers. "Following is the approval status of > genetically enhanced corn products in the industry to ensure you have > the most current and accurate information. We also want to update you > on the marketing options for our corn products which must be used or > marketed domestically in 1999." > > Monsanto's Roundup Ready corn has not been approved by the EU, but the > company said in its letter that it has identified more than 1,500 U.S. > locations "including elevators. feed mills and feed processors, that > utilize grain for domestic purposes." > > In the letter, the company said it was committed to finding domestic > uses for non-EU approved corn varieties. "Today, nearly 80% of U.S. > corn is used domestically, with 61% used for feed," the letter said. > "We are committed and will find a destination for our products not > yet approved in the EU Growers can market their grain from these corn > technologies by feeding the grain on-farm, selling the grain to > livestock producers, and selling the grain to local elevators for > domestic use." > > The EU imports up to 2.5 million metric tons of corn a year. The U.S. > grows about 30 million acres of genetically modified corn, of which > five million to six million acres aren't approved by the EU, said > Iowa-based consulting firm Pro Farmer. > > Thrane said Cargill is also backing a plan developed by the U.S. corn > industry, which includes seed manufacturers and national producer > groups. The program will educate producers about what types of > genetically modified corn aren't approved yet by the EU. > > A limited release of Roundup Ready corn was available in 1998, but > this is the first growing season where it will be widely available to > U.S. farmers. Corn processing industry officials have expressed > concern the EU will limit imports of U.S. corn gluten livestock feed > if non-approved varieties show up in shipments. The market for the > byproduct is worth about $600 million annually. > > > U.S. WANTS EU BAN ON GMOS BEFORE WTO > > Impatient and frustrated with what it sees as the European Union's > feet dragging on the authorization of imported U.S.-produced > genetically modified organism (GMO) food products, the U.S. is > currently searching for a way to put the GMO issue on the World Trade > Organization agenda at the next round of global trade talks. > > At the same time, however, the U.S. is continuing bilateral talks with > the EU to > accelerate the Commission's approval of genetically modified corn > developed by Monsanto Corp., Novartis of Switzerland, and Hoechst > Schering AgrEvo GmbH of Germany. > > Faced with the fact that it has no specific plan to raise the GMO > issue at the WTO because there are no grounds for a trade dispute > right now, unlike the cases of suspect beef growth hormones and Carl > O. Lindners banana exports to the EU - U.S. sources insist that > genetically modified crops "will have to be addressed somehow in the > next round of talks." Consequently, the U.S. is now looking for a > proper way to tackle the issue and define its position ahead of WTO > meetings in Geneva this month and in Seattle in November. > > Currently, the U.S. faces the prospect of being shut out of the EU > corn market this year because of EU delays in approving the sale of > genetically modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. At least two > gene-modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. have yet to be approved > for sale in the EU. > > The U.S. is anxious to see changes in the EU's approval procedure, > known as the 90/220 process. Under that process, scientific reviews > take years while equivalent U.S. scientific reviews take only months, > according to U.S. sources. In addition the U.S. is also frustrated > with what it calls the "effective collapse of the EU's regulatory > process for new genetically engineered plants and an incomplete and > unworkable food labeling regulation for foods containing genetically > modified corn and soybeans," according to Peter L. Scher of the > Special Trade Negotiator Office of the U.S. Trade Representative. > > U.S. officials also blame European consumers' reluctance to accept > food made with genetically modified produce on scare-mongering by > Europe's media and ineffective public relations strategies by firms > like Monsanto. > > In the "life sciences" industry and the halls of the USDA, GMO crops > are at least as safe as traditionally bred crops. "We're talking about > tens of thousands of field trials and millions of people who have > ingested these foods safely," Carl Feldbaum, president of the > Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO) in Washington, recently told > the Washington Posts Rick Weiss. "And before people ingested the > foods, we're talking about agencies highly respected by American > citizens -- the FDA, the EPA, the Department of Agriculture -- all > signing off on the safety of these plants." > > Philip S. Angell, director of corporate communications for Monsanto > Co., blames Europe's rejection of biotechnology on a lack of public > trust in food safety agencies there. In particular, he singles out the > still-simmering "mad cow disease" fiasco, in which British government > officials insisted for years that there were no human health risks > from the bovine disease -- only to have that assurance disproved. > > Yet, a continuing series of public relations disasters by Monsanto > have also added to the problem. For example. according to a > preliminary ruling by Britain's official Advertising Standards > Authority last month, a $1.6 million Monsanto advertising campaign > sought to deceive the public by expressing opinions as accepted fact > and making scientific claims that were "wrong" and "misleading." > > Another factor, David Atkinson, vice principal for research at the > Scottish Agricultural College in Edinburgh, pointed out to the Posts > Weiss is that Europeans are more attuned to what's happening in the > countryside than Americans are. "Look," he said, pointing out the > window of his second-story campus office. "Edinburgh is the fifth-or > sixth-largest city in the United Kingdom, and we can look out the > window and see countryside and see farming. . . ." > > > AGREVO: > SCRATCH ONE BRAZILIAN GMO RICE CROP > > Citing the failure to comply with federal safety codes the Brazilian > government recently > destroyed a test plot of genetically modified rice in the southern > state of Rio Grande do Sul operated by the local unit of AgrEvo, the > agrochemical joint venture between Germany's Hoechst AG and Schering > AG. > > "The whole rice crop will be destroyed. The secretary is already on > site and is overseeing the operation," a spokeswoman for the state's > Agriculture Secretary Jose Hermeto Hoffamann told Reuters Phil > Stewart. Authorities began ripping the crop out of the ground on April > 22 she said. The crop would later be burned. > > Andre Abreu, who head's AgrEvo's Brazilian biotechnology program, said > the test plot was a key step in the company's long-term plan to sell > LibertyLink rice in Brazil. > > Currently, Rio Grande do Sul's government, is seeking to ban all > transgenic crops, having already previously threatened to destroy the > 2-hectare AgrEvo test plot as well as Monsanto's 435-hectare plot, > where its local unit is reproducing herbicide-resistant Roundup Ready > soybean seeds while the company is currently wading through the legal > process of registering them for domestic sale > > When Brazil's Commission for Biological Security (CTNBio), which has > been criticized for being too friendly to multinationals, broke > Brazil's historic ban on transgenic crops in 1998 by approving the > safety of Monsanto Co.'s Roundup Ready soybeans it opened a floodgate > of controversy in Latin America's agricultural giant. Environmental > groups led by Greenpeace have been teaming up with farmers worried > about losing business to transgenic-wary European consumers to oppose > the testing. > > CTNBio, however, gave its first-ever authorization to destroy a > transgenic test crop. It argued AgrEvo did not provide the necessary > covering or buffer zone to prevent contamination of nearby > non-genetically modified crops. > > > FLOWER POWER: > COMING TO A SUPERMARKET NEAR YOU > > With years of experience in selling and distributing perishable > products , strong brand recognition, and existing "relationships" with > supermarket chains Dole Foods and Sunkist Growers Inc. are about to > enter the $15 billion floral business. > > Currently the U.S. is the largest market of worldwide fresh flowers > although it ranks 13th in capita consumption just behind Slovenia. > > Risking, according to industry sources, the reputation of their > overall brand names in pineapples, bananas, oranges and other fruits > the two companies will be faced with maintaining the quality and > freshness of their flowers. Floral industry surveys, according to the > Los Angeles Times, show that Americans limit their floral purchases > because they consider fresh flowers a poor value--too expensive and > not long-lasting enough. > > Sunkist flowers, therefore, will come with a seven-day replacement > guarantee, and packaging is stamped with a sell-by date, like milk, > while Dole will time its delivery schedules to supermarkets so that > its flowers never sit on supermarket shelves for more than two or > three days. > > Some supermarkets --- Ralph's, Albertson's, Von's, Safeway --- > already sell their own house brand of flowers. The move into branding, > according to the Times, is part of a larger trend of consolidation in > the highly fragmented floral business, one of the last still dominated > by mom-and-pop businesses and with few national brand names. > > Dole and Washington-based U.S.A. Floral Products Inc., a flower > wholesaler that has licensed the Sunkist name, are buying up growers, > importers, wholesalers and bouquet makers--consolidating what insiders > say is a diffuse distribution system. The companies have been able to > trim costs and the time it takes to get flowers to market--factors > which will be essential to the potential success of the Dole and > Sunkist brands. > > The latest move to brand-name flowers is also a challenge to the > nation's some 40,000 independent florists who will more than likely be > faced with the choice of selling out their business or closing their > doors rather than compete with the supermarkets, while others, > according to industry sources, will benefit from the increased > awareness of flowers generated by increased supermarket advertising. > > Although supermarkets will offer consumers a convenient place to shop > for flowers, the one big hurdle facing Sunkist and Dole is that they > must rely on supermarket employees to properly maintain flowers and > remove old bouquets from the shelves. Dole and Sunkist are currently > training supermarket employees on flower-handling. > > > FOOD FOR THOUGHT > > "It is one thing to say with the prophet Amos, > 'let justice roll down like mighty waters,' > and quite another to work out the irrigation system." > --- William Sloan Coffin > > > > > --------------95910C5B6D9CC84987479AFF Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by mail2.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26967 for ; Mon, 10 May 1999 20:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-48-86.stk.jps.net [209.142.48.86]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA03385 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 03:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37379D00.B12E6E@jps.net> Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 18:59:13 -0800 From: "R. Scott Murphy" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Roth Subject: [Fwd: THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER #32] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------937BDE69DF783A87AE1D85BE" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------937BDE69DF783A87AE1D85BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------937BDE69DF783A87AE1D85BE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from smtp4.jps.net (smtp4.jps.net [209.63.224.57]) by mail3.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15503; Thu, 6 May 1999 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by smtp4.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA09276; Fri, 7 May 1999 06:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earthlink.net (1Cust202.tnt3.everett.wa.da.uu.net [208.251.201.202]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27768; Thu, 6 May 1999 21:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3732703E.DEB602D8@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:47:31 -0700 From: "Albert V. Krebs" Reply-To: avkrebs@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: one@earthlink.net Subject: THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER #32 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1A3DDFEFA85E8C5400601470" X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 --------------1A3DDFEFA85E8C5400601470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER Issue # 32 May 6, 1999 Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective A.V. Krebs Editor\Publisher Editors Note Although there is no subscription fee for THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER, donations will, as always, be gladly accepted. One of my subscribers says he pays $30 a year for 12 issues of a Health letter, and my weekly will hopefully go up to 52 so he feels it is worth at least the cost of a monthly newsletter. I hope you agree. Checks made out to A.V. Krebs, P.O. Box 2201, Everett, Washington 98203-0201 [NOT to "Agribusiness Examiner"] will continue to be received with much gratitude. To those readers of THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER who have already sent donations I want to express my sincere thanks for your continued support and interest in this venture. A reminder also to those who might wish to receive a weekly e-mail edition of THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER, please provide your NAME and E-MAIL ADDRESS. At this time THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER is not available in printed form. IBP: COULD THIS BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END IN DAKOTA CITY ?!? In a major victory for the nation's independent cattle producers, after years of legal struggles by the plaintiffs to overcome numerous roadblocks, U.S. District Court Senior Judge, Lyle B. Strom issued an order April 28 certifying a national "class-action" of cattle producers against IBP (Iowa Beef Processors) The original lawsuit --- Pickett vs IBP --- filed in July, 1996 by ten cattlemen plaintiffs --- Mike Callicrate, Henry Lee Pickett, Sam Britt, Paul Horton, Jim Bower, Pat Goggins, Johnny Smith, Stayton Weldon, Lovel Blain, and David Smith --- as representatives of the "class," charged that IBP violated the Packers and Stockyards Act (P&S Act). "The entire cattle industry has been in an economic crisis ever since IBP and the other big packers schemed to fatten their profits by denying producers a fair price for their cattle, "Callicrate, a St. Francis, Kansas feedlot owner, emphasizes. "Our lawsuit contends that the method IBP uses is to set an unfairly low price it will pay for cattle, and when cattlemen reject that price because they will suffer a loss, IBP slaughters, or threatens to slaughter, cattle from its `captive supply.'" "This illegal strategy," he adds, "leaves cattlemen without a buyer for their cattle. And because finished cattle must be sold quickly while at optimum weight, cattlemen are forced to accept that low bid, at a loss to themselves. This abusive market power profits IBP in lowering prices paid to cattlemen while consumes continue to pay record high prices for beef." The cattlemen also allege, according to their attorney Randy Beard, that by contracting "captive supplies" with certain preferred feedlots, the Dakota City, Nebraska-headquartered IBP reduces its need to participate in the cash market. As a result, he points out, these meatpacker agreements to take ownership of cattle weeks in advance violate the anti-competitive provisions of the P&S Act because they are entered into with the intent of, or having the effect of, reducing the cash market price. Contrary to IBP's contention that low prices are the result of supply and demand, plaintiffs point out that IBP's profits have soared to record levels at a time when cattle producers are going bankrupt. They say that if IBP's defense were true, there would be no reason for them to pursue all these anti-competitive practices, and they would not resist eliminating them. The lawsuit asks that the defendant IBP cease and desist from any further illegal activities in manipulating the price of beef cattle in violation of the P&S Act, and for compensatory and punitive damages, fees and expenses, and any other relief that the court deems appropriate. Plaintiffs estimate that actual damages due cattlemen could approach multi-billions of dollars. Grass-roots cattlemen's organizations, individual cattlemen, national farm groups, National Farmers Union, and a host of others concerned about the plight of the beef industry, submitted amicus briefs to the court supporting the plaintiffs against IBP, and urging "class-action" status, Callicrate said. "Even Canadian cattlemen, whose market is also dominated by IBP, supported us," he noted. "At one point, the court asked Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman to write an opinion as to whether we could pursue a private lawsuit under the P&S Act," Callicrate added. "In an extensively researched brief, Secretary Glickman gave us the green light to press our charges against IBP, he said that the U.S. district court was the only forum to pursue this claim, and allowed the court to fully consider our case and subsequent `class-action' status." EU SCIENTISTS: U.S. BEEF GROWTH HORMONE: "CONSIDERED AS A COMPLETE CARCINOGEN" In a stunning May 3 report released by the European Union's (EU) Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures the hormone 17 beta-oestradiol -- one of six growth hormones in American beef -- was characterized as being "considered as a complete carcinogen." "It exerts both tumor initiating and tumor promoting effects," the report said. "In plain language, this means that even small additional doses of residues of this hormone in meat, arising from its use as a growth promoter in cattle, has an inherent risk of causing cancer." There was inadequate data to make a definitive finding on the other five growth hormones used in U.S. beef, the scientific committee said. But it said exposure to small levels of residues in meat and meat products "carries risks." While the The European Commission immediately ruled out ending a 10-year-old ban on hormone-treated beef, increasing the risk of escalating the current trade war between the U.S. and the European Union, U.S. trade and agriculture officials sharply criticized the scientist's report. "The supposed new claims are nothing but misleading allegations," said Peter Scher, America's trade negotiator on agricultural matters. He called the report a "blatant attempt" by the EU to delay abiding by its trade obligations. "If the EU does not lift this ban, we will retaliate this summer," Scher told a Senate subcommittee. USDA Secretary Dan Glickman and U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky charged that the EU had issued "yet another misleading report. It repeats the same unsubstantiated arguments that the EU has already made before the World Trade Organization (WTO) panel of experts, which were flatly rejected by the panel," they declared in a joint statement. "The issue is the EU's refusal to comply with the WTO rulings and its unwillingness to honor its international obligations." Answering the U.S. denials that there were any dangers to U.S. exported beef to the EU the Union's commission slammed U.S. criticism of the scientific report. In its statement, the commission accused the U.S. of trying "to belittle the risk" identified by the scientists. "The commission cannot understand why the U.S. has not reacted in a more responsible way to the conclusive findings of the scientific committee,especially as the scientists said children are most at risk from the hormones." Some 90% of American cattle producers now feed hormones approved by the Food and Drug Administration to cattle to make them grow faster and bigger. In 1998 the WTO ruled that the EU ban on hormone-treated beef was illegal and must be lifted by May 13. It said the EU's ban was not supported by the proper risk analysis. After the WTO ruling, the EU ordered 17 studies on risks linked to the use of hormones in meat, some of which were carried out in the U.S. Sixteen of these have yet to be completed. The EU's recent scientific committee report based its opinion on interim findings and the one completed report. The document, which has been sent to Washington for comments, said U.S. regulatory controls on the use of hormones in meat are "deficient" and Canadian controls are "insufficient." Since 1989, the U.S. has exported only hormone-free beef to the EU because of the ban. The U.S. industry has put the lost export sales at $500 million annually. The Clinton administration is threatening to impose 100% tariffs on more than $900 million worth of European products in retaliation for the ban. GMO CORN: ADM, A.E. STALEY SAY NO! CARGILL SAYS YES! In a surprise move the nation's largest corn processor,Archer Daniels Midland Co. (ADM), has announced that it will follow its cross-town Decatur, Illinois competitor, the U.S.'s third largest corn processor A.E. Staley Manufacturing Co., and will only accept corn varieties approved by the European Union "ADM supports the position of the Corn Refiners Association and the National Grain and Feed Association in regard to transgenic corn by not participating in the commerce of the varieties that are not approved by the EU," said ADM spokesperson Carla Miller. "If and when the varieties are approved by the EU, we will participate in the marketing of those grains." "The timing of the announcement couldn't come at a worse time," Doug Wilson, president of the Illinois Corn Growers Association told Dow Jones Newswires. "Most producers have their seed in their shed and it's hard to make adjustments. We're in prime planting time." "Both of those products (Roundup Ready and Bt) are going to be planted by a lot of producers," said Illinois Corn Growers Association spokesman Mark Lambert. Asked if the announcements were bad news to producers, Lambert replied, "Sure it is from the perception standpoint. People are going to see that they're not accepting the product and they're going to assume that it's something wrong with it." Following initial conflicting press reports Cargill Inc., the worlds largest grain trader, reassured U.S. corn growers that it will be accepting delivery of genetically modified corn that has not yet been approved for shipment to the European Union. After it was initially reported that Cargill had joined other industry players in boycotting the genetically modified products, Linda Thrane, with Cargill, reconfirmed that the company will be accepting delivery of genetically modified corn, such as hybrids developed to withstand post-emergent applications of certain chemicals like Monsanto's Roundup. There are also some Bt corn varieties that aren't currently accepted by the EU. The Bt variety is named for the naturally occurring bacillus thurgiensis toxin that is lethal to corn borers and other caterpillars. Genetically engineered to contain Bt, the plants kill many pests as soon as they chew into the stalk. While Cargill is concerned about keeping the GMO product out of supply pipelines that send processing byproducts to Europe, Thrane noted, the company's grain buyers would be able to work with farmers to buy the corn for domestic uses, including animal feed. Meanwhile, Monsanto Inc., which entered into a marketing "alliance" with Cargill in 1998, announced that it plans to help U.S. farmers market the genetically modified corn that has not been approved by the EU. "We would like to eliminate any confusion that exists regarding biotech seed varieties which are approved for export," the company said in a letter to producers. "Following is the approval status of genetically enhanced corn products in the industry to ensure you have the most current and accurate information. We also want to update you on the marketing options for our corn products which must be used or marketed domestically in 1999." Monsanto's Roundup Ready corn has not been approved by the EU, but the company said in its letter that it has identified more than 1,500 U.S. locations "including elevators. feed mills and feed processors, that utilize grain for domestic purposes." In the letter, the company said it was committed to finding domestic uses for non-EU approved corn varieties. "Today, nearly 80% of U.S. corn is used domestically, with 61% used for feed," the letter said. "We are committed and will find a destination for our products not yet approved in the EU Growers can market their grain from these corn technologies by feeding the grain on-farm, selling the grain to livestock producers, and selling the grain to local elevators for domestic use." The EU imports up to 2.5 million metric tons of corn a year. The U.S. grows about 30 million acres of genetically modified corn, of which five million to six million acres aren't approved by the EU, said Iowa-based consulting firm Pro Farmer. Thrane said Cargill is also backing a plan developed by the U.S. corn industry, which includes seed manufacturers and national producer groups. The program will educate producers about what types of genetically modified corn aren't approved yet by the EU. A limited release of Roundup Ready corn was available in 1998, but this is the first growing season where it will be widely available to U.S. farmers. Corn processing industry officials have expressed concern the EU will limit imports of U.S. corn gluten livestock feed if non-approved varieties show up in shipments. The market for the byproduct is worth about $600 million annually. U.S. WANTS EU BAN ON GMOS BEFORE WTO Impatient and frustrated with what it sees as the European Union's feet dragging on the authorization of imported U.S.-produced genetically modified organism (GMO) food products, the U.S. is currently searching for a way to put the GMO issue on the World Trade Organization agenda at the next round of global trade talks. At the same time, however, the U.S. is continuing bilateral talks with the EU to accelerate the Commission's approval of genetically modified corn developed by Monsanto Corp., Novartis of Switzerland, and Hoechst Schering AgrEvo GmbH of Germany. Faced with the fact that it has no specific plan to raise the GMO issue at the WTO because there are no grounds for a trade dispute right now, unlike the cases of suspect beef growth hormones and Carl O. Lindners banana exports to the EU - U.S. sources insist that genetically modified crops "will have to be addressed somehow in the next round of talks." Consequently, the U.S. is now looking for a proper way to tackle the issue and define its position ahead of WTO meetings in Geneva this month and in Seattle in November. Currently, the U.S. faces the prospect of being shut out of the EU corn market this year because of EU delays in approving the sale of genetically modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. At least two gene-modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. have yet to be approved for sale in the EU. The U.S. is anxious to see changes in the EU's approval procedure, known as the 90/220 process. Under that process, scientific reviews take years while equivalent U.S. scientific reviews take only months, according to U.S. sources. In addition the U.S. is also frustrated with what it calls the "effective collapse of the EU's regulatory process for new genetically engineered plants and an incomplete and unworkable food labeling regulation for foods containing genetically modified corn and soybeans," according to Peter L. Scher of the Special Trade Negotiator Office of the U.S. Trade Representative. U.S. officials also blame European consumers' reluctance to accept food made with genetically modified produce on scare-mongering by Europe's media and ineffective public relations strategies by firms like Monsanto. In the "life sciences" industry and the halls of the USDA, GMO crops are at least as safe as traditionally bred crops. "We're talking about tens of thousands of field trials and millions of people who have ingested these foods safely," Carl Feldbaum, president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO) in Washington, recently told the Washington Posts Rick Weiss. "And before people ingested the foods, we're talking about agencies highly respected by American citizens -- the FDA, the EPA, the Department of Agriculture -- all signing off on the safety of these plants." Philip S. Angell, director of corporate communications for Monsanto Co., blames Europe's rejection of biotechnology on a lack of public trust in food safety agencies there. In particular, he singles out the still-simmering "mad cow disease" fiasco, in which British government officials insisted for years that there were no human health risks from the bovine disease -- only to have that assurance disproved. Yet, a continuing series of public relations disasters by Monsanto have also added to the problem. For example. according to a preliminary ruling by Britain's official Advertising Standards Authority last month, a $1.6 million Monsanto advertising campaign sought to deceive the public by expressing opinions as accepted fact and making scientific claims that were "wrong" and "misleading." Another factor, David Atkinson, vice principal for research at the Scottish Agricultural College in Edinburgh, pointed out to the Posts Weiss is that Europeans are more attuned to what's happening in the countryside than Americans are. "Look," he said, pointing out the window of his second-story campus office. "Edinburgh is the fifth-or sixth-largest city in the United Kingdom, and we can look out the window and see countryside and see farming. . . ." AGREVO: SCRATCH ONE BRAZILIAN GMO RICE CROP Citing the failure to comply with federal safety codes the Brazilian government recently destroyed a test plot of genetically modified rice in the southern state of Rio Grande do Sul operated by the local unit of AgrEvo, the agrochemical joint venture between Germany's Hoechst AG and Schering AG. "The whole rice crop will be destroyed. The secretary is already on site and is overseeing the operation," a spokeswoman for the state's Agriculture Secretary Jose Hermeto Hoffamann told Reuters Phil Stewart. Authorities began ripping the crop out of the ground on April 22 she said. The crop would later be burned. Andre Abreu, who head's AgrEvo's Brazilian biotechnology program, said the test plot was a key step in the company's long-term plan to sell LibertyLink rice in Brazil. Currently, Rio Grande do Sul's government, is seeking to ban all transgenic crops, having already previously threatened to destroy the 2-hectare AgrEvo test plot as well as Monsanto's 435-hectare plot, where its local unit is reproducing herbicide-resistant Roundup Ready soybean seeds while the company is currently wading through the legal process of registering them for domestic sale When Brazil's Commission for Biological Security (CTNBio), which has been criticized for being too friendly to multinationals, broke Brazil's historic ban on transgenic crops in 1998 by approving the safety of Monsanto Co.'s Roundup Ready soybeans it opened a floodgate of controversy in Latin America's agricultural giant. Environmental groups led by Greenpeace have been teaming up with farmers worried about losing business to transgenic-wary European consumers to oppose the testing. CTNBio, however, gave its first-ever authorization to destroy a transgenic test crop. It argued AgrEvo did not provide the necessary covering or buffer zone to prevent contamination of nearby non-genetically modified crops. FLOWER POWER: COMING TO A SUPERMARKET NEAR YOU With years of experience in selling and distributing perishable products , strong brand recognition, and existing "relationships" with supermarket chains Dole Foods and Sunkist Growers Inc. are about to enter the $15 billion floral business. Currently the U.S. is the largest market of worldwide fresh flowers although it ranks 13th in capita consumption just behind Slovenia. Risking, according to industry sources, the reputation of their overall brand names in pineapples, bananas, oranges and other fruits the two companies will be faced with maintaining the quality and freshness of their flowers. Floral industry surveys, according to the Los Angeles Times, show that Americans limit their floral purchases because they consider fresh flowers a poor value--too expensive and not long-lasting enough. Sunkist flowers, therefore, will come with a seven-day replacement guarantee, and packaging is stamped with a sell-by date, like milk, while Dole will time its delivery schedules to supermarkets so that its flowers never sit on supermarket shelves for more than two or three days. Some supermarkets --- Ralph's, Albertson's, Von's, Safeway --- already sell their own house brand of flowers. The move into branding, according to the Times, is part of a larger trend of consolidation in the highly fragmented floral business, one of the last still dominated by mom-and-pop businesses and with few national brand names. Dole and Washington-based U.S.A. Floral Products Inc., a flower wholesaler that has licensed the Sunkist name, are buying up growers, importers, wholesalers and bouquet makers--consolidating what insiders say is a diffuse distribution system. The companies have been able to trim costs and the time it takes to get flowers to market--factors which will be essential to the potential success of the Dole and Sunkist brands. The latest move to brand-name flowers is also a challenge to the nation's some 40,000 independent florists who will more than likely be faced with the choice of selling out their business or closing their doors rather than compete with the supermarkets, while others, according to industry sources, will benefit from the increased awareness of flowers generated by increased supermarket advertising. Although supermarkets will offer consumers a convenient place to shop for flowers, the one big hurdle facing Sunkist and Dole is that they must rely on supermarket employees to properly maintain flowers and remove old bouquets from the shelves. Dole and Sunkist are currently training supermarket employees on flower-handling. FOOD FOR THOUGHT "It is one thing to say with the prophet Amos, 'let justice roll down like mighty waters,' and quite another to work out the irrigation system." --- William Sloan Coffin --------------1A3DDFEFA85E8C5400601470 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    The
    AGRIBUSINESS
    EXAMINER                            Issue # 32       May 6, 1999

    Monitoring Corporate Agribusiness From a Public Interest Perspective
     

    A.V. Krebs
    Editor\Publisher
     

                                                     Editors Note
    Although there is no subscription fee for THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER, donations will, as always, be gladly  accepted. One of my subscribers says he pays $30 a year for 12 issues of a Health  letter, and my weekly will hopefully go up to 52 so he feels it is worth at  least the cost of a monthly newsletter.  I hope you agree. Checks made out to A.V. Krebs, P.O. Box 2201, Everett, Washington 98203-0201 [NOT to "Agribusiness Examiner"] will continue to be received with much gratitude.

    To those readers of THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER who have already sent donations I want to express my sincere thanks for your continued support and interest in this venture. A reminder also to those who might wish to receive a weekly  e-mail edition of THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER, please provide your NAME and E-MAIL ADDRESS. At this time THE AGRIBUSINESS EXAMINER is not available in printed form.
     

    IBP:
    COULD THIS BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END IN DAKOTA CITY ?!?

    In a major victory for the nation's independent cattle producers, after years of legal struggles by the plaintiffs to overcome numerous roadblocks, U.S. District Court Senior Judge, Lyle B. Strom issued an order April 28 certifying a national "class-action" of cattle producers against IBP (Iowa Beef Processors)

    The original lawsuit --- Pickett vs IBP --- filed in July, 1996 by ten cattlemen plaintiffs --- Mike Callicrate, Henry Lee Pickett, Sam Britt, Paul Horton, Jim Bower, Pat Goggins, Johnny Smith, Stayton Weldon, Lovel Blain, and David Smith --- as representatives of the "class," charged that IBP violated the Packers and Stockyards Act (P&S Act).

    "The entire cattle industry has been in an economic crisis ever since IBP and the other big packers schemed to fatten their profits by denying producers a fair price for their cattle, "Callicrate, a St. Francis, Kansas feedlot owner, emphasizes. "Our lawsuit contends that the method IBP uses is to set an unfairly low price it will pay for cattle, and when cattlemen reject that price because they will suffer a loss, IBP slaughters, or threatens to slaughter, cattle from its `captive supply.'"
     
    "This illegal strategy," he adds, "leaves cattlemen without a buyer for their cattle. And because finished cattle must be sold quickly while at optimum weight, cattlemen are forced to accept that low bid, at a loss to themselves. This abusive market power profits IBP in lowering prices paid to cattlemen while consumes continue to pay record high prices for beef."

    The cattlemen also allege, according to their attorney Randy Beard, that by contracting
    "captive supplies" with certain preferred feedlots, the Dakota City, Nebraska-headquartered IBP reduces its need to participate in the cash market. As a result, he points out, these meatpacker agreements to take ownership of cattle weeks in advance violate the anti-competitive provisions of the P&S Act because they are entered into with the intent of, or having the effect of, reducing the cash market price.

    Contrary to IBP's contention that low prices are the result of supply and demand, plaintiffs point out that IBP's profits have soared to record levels at a time when cattle producers are going bankrupt. They say that if IBP's defense were true, there would be no reason for them to pursue all these anti-competitive practices, and they would not resist eliminating them.

    The lawsuit asks that the defendant IBP cease and desist from any further illegal activities in manipulating the price of beef cattle in violation of the P&S Act, and for compensatory and punitive damages, fees and expenses, and any other relief that the court deems appropriate.  Plaintiffs estimate that actual damages due cattlemen could approach multi-billions of dollars.

    Grass-roots cattlemen's organizations, individual cattlemen, national farm groups, National Farmers Union, and a host of others concerned about the plight of the beef industry, submitted amicus briefs to the court supporting the plaintiffs against IBP, and urging "class-action" status, Callicrate said. "Even Canadian cattlemen, whose market is also dominated by IBP, supported us," he noted.

    "At one point, the court asked Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman to write an opinion as to whether we could pursue a private lawsuit under the P&S Act," Callicrate added. "In an extensively researched brief, Secretary Glickman gave us the green light to press our charges against IBP, he said that the U.S. district court was the only forum to pursue this claim, and allowed the court to fully consider our case and subsequent `class-action' status."
     

    EU  SCIENTISTS:
    U.S. BEEF GROWTH HORMONE:
    "CONSIDERED AS A COMPLETE CARCINOGEN"
     
    In a stunning May 3 report released by the European Union's (EU) Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures the hormone 17 beta-oestradiol -- one of six growth hormones in American beef -- was characterized as being "considered as a complete carcinogen."

    "It exerts both tumor initiating and tumor promoting effects," the report said. "In plain language, this means that even small additional doses of residues of this hormone in meat, arising from its use as a growth promoter in cattle, has an inherent risk of causing cancer."

    There was inadequate data to make a definitive finding on the other five growth hormones used in U.S. beef, the scientific committee said. But it said exposure to small levels of residues in meat and meat products "carries risks."

    While the The European Commission immediately ruled out ending a 10-year-old ban on hormone-treated beef, increasing the risk of escalating the current  trade war between the U.S. and the European Union, U.S. trade and agriculture officials sharply criticized the scientist's report.

    "The supposed new claims are nothing but misleading allegations," said Peter Scher,           America's trade negotiator on agricultural matters. He called the report a "blatant attempt" by the EU to delay abiding by its trade obligations. "If the EU does not lift this ban, we will retaliate this summer," Scher told a Senate subcommittee.

    USDA Secretary Dan Glickman and U.S. Trade Representative Charlene Barshefsky charged that the EU had issued "yet another misleading report. It repeats the same unsubstantiated arguments that the EU has already made before the World Trade Organization (WTO) panel of experts, which were flatly rejected by the panel," they declared in a joint statement. "The issue is the EU's refusal to comply with the WTO rulings and its unwillingness to honor its international obligations."

    Answering the U.S. denials that there were any dangers to U.S. exported beef to the EU the Union's commission  slammed U.S. criticism of the scientific report. In its statement, the commission accused the U.S. of trying "to belittle the risk" identified by the scientists. "The commission cannot understand why the U.S. has not reacted in a more responsible way to the conclusive findings of the scientific committee,especially as the scientists said children are most at risk from the hormones."

    Some 90% of American cattle producers now feed hormones approved by the Food and Drug Administration to cattle to make them grow faster and bigger. In 1998 the WTO ruled that the EU ban on hormone-treated beef was illegal and must be lifted by May 13. It said the EU's ban was not supported by the proper risk analysis.

    After the WTO ruling, the EU ordered 17 studies on risks linked to the use of hormones in meat, some of which were carried out in the U.S. Sixteen of these have yet to be completed.  The EU's recent scientific committee report based its opinion on interim findings and the one completed report. The document, which has been sent to Washington for comments, said U.S. regulatory controls on the use of hormones in meat are "deficient" and Canadian controls are "insufficient."

    Since 1989, the U.S. has exported only hormone-free beef to the EU because of the ban. The U.S. industry has put the lost export sales at $500 million annually. The Clinton administration is threatening to impose 100% tariffs on more than $900 million worth of European products in retaliation for the ban.
     

    GMO CORN:
    ADM, A.E. STALEY SAY NO! CARGILL SAYS YES!

    In a surprise move the nation's largest corn processor,Archer Daniels Midland Co. (ADM),  has announced that it will follow its cross-town Decatur, Illinois competitor, the U.S.'s third largest corn processor A.E. Staley Manufacturing Co., and will only accept corn varieties approved by the European Union

    "ADM supports the position of the Corn Refiners Association and the National Grain and Feed Association in regard to transgenic corn by not participating in the commerce of the varieties that are not approved by the EU," said ADM spokesperson Carla Miller. "If and when the varieties are approved by the EU, we will  participate in the marketing of those grains."

    "The timing of the announcement couldn't come at a worse time," Doug Wilson, president of the Illinois Corn Growers Association told Dow Jones Newswires. "Most  producers have their seed in their shed and it's hard to make adjustments. We're in prime planting time."

    "Both of those products (Roundup Ready and Bt) are going to be planted by  a lot of producers," said Illinois Corn Growers Association spokesman Mark Lambert. Asked if the announcements were bad news to producers, Lambert replied, "Sure it is from the perception standpoint. People are going to see that they're not accepting the product and they're going to assume that it's  something wrong with it."

    Following initial conflicting press reports Cargill Inc., the worlds largest grain trader,  reassured U.S. corn growers that it will be accepting delivery of genetically modified corn that has not yet been approved for shipment to the European Union.

    After it was initially reported that Cargill had joined other industry players in boycotting the genetically modified products, Linda Thrane, with Cargill, reconfirmed that the company will be accepting delivery of genetically modified corn, such as hybrids developed to withstand post-emergent applications of certain chemicals like Monsanto's Roundup.

    There are also some Bt corn varieties that aren't currently accepted by the EU. The Bt variety is named for the naturally occurring bacillus thurgiensis toxin that is lethal to corn borers and other caterpillars. Genetically engineered to contain Bt, the plants kill many pests as soon as they chew  into the stalk.

    While Cargill is concerned about keeping the GMO product out of supply pipelines that send processing byproducts to Europe, Thrane noted,  the company's grain buyers would be able to work with farmers to buy the corn for domestic uses, including animal feed.

    Meanwhile, Monsanto Inc., which entered into a marketing "alliance" with Cargill in 1998, announced that it  plans to help U.S. farmers market the genetically modified corn that has not been approved by the EU.

    "We would like to eliminate any confusion that exists regarding biotech  seed varieties which are approved for export," the company said in a letter to producers. "Following is the approval status of genetically enhanced corn products in the industry to ensure you have the most current  and accurate information. We also want to update you on the marketing  options for our corn products which must be used or marketed domestically  in 1999."

    Monsanto's Roundup Ready corn has not been approved by the EU, but the company said in its letter that it has identified more than 1,500 U.S. locations "including elevators. feed mills and feed processors, that utilize grain for domestic purposes."

    In the letter, the company said it was committed to finding domestic uses for non-EU approved corn varieties. "Today, nearly 80% of U.S. corn is used domestically, with 61% used for feed," the letter said. "We are committed and will find a destination for  our products not yet approved in the EU Growers can market their grain  from these corn technologies by feeding the grain on-farm, selling the  grain to livestock producers, and selling the grain to local elevators for  domestic use."

    The EU imports up to 2.5 million metric tons of corn a year. The U.S. grows about 30 million acres of genetically modified corn, of  which five million to six million acres aren't approved by the EU, said Iowa-based consulting firm Pro Farmer.

    Thrane said Cargill is also backing a plan developed by the U.S. corn industry, which includes seed manufacturers and national producer groups. The program will educate producers about what types of genetically modified corn aren't approved yet by the EU.

    A limited release of Roundup Ready corn was available in 1998, but this is the first growing season where it will be widely available to U.S. farmers. Corn processing industry officials have expressed concern the EU will limit imports of U.S. corn gluten livestock feed if non-approved varieties show up in shipments. The market for the byproduct is worth about $600 million annually.
     

    U.S. WANTS EU BAN ON GMOS BEFORE WTO

    Impatient and frustrated with what it sees as the European Union's feet dragging on the authorization of imported U.S.-produced genetically modified organism (GMO) food products, the U.S. is currently searching for a way to put the GMO issue on the World Trade Organization agenda at the next round of global trade talks.

    At the same time, however, the U.S. is continuing bilateral talks with the EU to
    accelerate the Commission's approval of genetically modified corn developed by Monsanto Corp., Novartis of Switzerland, and Hoechst Schering AgrEvo GmbH of Germany.

    Faced with the fact that it has no specific plan to raise the GMO issue at the WTO because there are no grounds for a trade dispute right now, unlike the cases of suspect beef growth hormones and Carl O. Lindners banana exports to the EU - U.S. sources insist that genetically modified crops "will have to be addressed somehow in the next round of talks." Consequently, the U.S. is now looking for a proper way to tackle the issue and define its position ahead of WTO meetings in Geneva this month and in Seattle in November.

    Currently, the U.S. faces the prospect of being shut out of the EU corn market this year because of EU delays in approving the sale of genetically modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. At  least two gene-modified corn varieties grown in the U.S. have yet to be approved for sale in the EU.

    The U.S. is anxious to see changes in the EU's approval procedure, known as the 90/220 process.  Under that process, scientific reviews take years while equivalent U.S. scientific reviews take only months, according to U.S. sources. In addition the U.S. is also frustrated with what it calls the "effective collapse of the EU's regulatory process for new genetically engineered plants and an incomplete and unworkable food labeling regulation for foods containing  genetically modified corn and soybeans," according to Peter L. Scher of the Special Trade Negotiator Office of the U.S. Trade Representative.

    U.S. officials also blame European consumers' reluctance to accept food made with genetically modified produce on scare-mongering by Europe's media and ineffective public relations strategies by firms like Monsanto.

    In the "life sciences" industry and the halls of the USDA, GMO crops are at least as safe as traditionally bred crops. "We're talking about tens of thousands of field trials and millions of people who have ingested these foods safely," Carl Feldbaum, president of the Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO) in Washington, recently told the Washington Posts Rick Weiss. "And before people ingested the foods, we're talking about agencies highly respected by American citizens -- the FDA, the EPA, the Department of Agriculture -- all signing off on the safety of these plants."
     
    Philip S. Angell, director of corporate communications for Monsanto Co., blames Europe's rejection of biotechnology on a lack of public trust in food safety agencies there. In particular, he singles out the still-simmering "mad cow disease" fiasco, in which British government officials insisted for years that there were no human health risks from the bovine disease -- only to have that assurance disproved.
     
    Yet, a continuing series of public relations disasters by Monsanto have also added to the problem. For example. according to a preliminary ruling by Britain's official Advertising Standards Authority last month, a $1.6 million Monsanto advertising campaign sought to deceive the public by expressing opinions as accepted fact and making scientific claims that were "wrong" and "misleading."

    Another factor, David Atkinson, vice principal for research at the Scottish Agricultural College in Edinburgh, pointed out to the Posts Weiss is that Europeans are more attuned to what's happening in the countryside than Americans are. "Look," he said, pointing out the window of his second-story campus office. "Edinburgh is the fifth-or sixth-largest city in the United Kingdom, and we can look out the window and see countryside and see farming. . . ."
     

    AGREVO:
    SCRATCH ONE BRAZILIAN GMO RICE CROP

    Citing the failure to comply with federal safety codes the Brazilian government recently
    destroyed a test plot of genetically modified rice in the southern state of Rio Grande do Sul operated by the local unit of AgrEvo, the agrochemical joint venture between Germany's Hoechst AG and Schering AG.

    "The whole rice crop will be destroyed. The secretary is already on site and is overseeing the operation," a spokeswoman for the state's Agriculture Secretary Jose Hermeto Hoffamann told Reuters Phil Stewart. Authorities began ripping the crop out of the ground on April 22 she said. The crop would later be burned.

    Andre Abreu, who head's AgrEvo's Brazilian biotechnology program, said the test plot was a key step in the company's long-term plan to sell LibertyLink rice in Brazil.

    Currently, Rio Grande do Sul's government, is seeking to ban all transgenic crops, having already previously threatened to destroy the 2-hectare AgrEvo test plot as well as Monsanto's 435-hectare plot, where its local unit is reproducing herbicide-resistant Roundup Ready soybean seeds while the company is currently wading through the legal process of registering them for domestic sale

    When Brazil's Commission for Biological Security (CTNBio), which has been criticized for being too friendly to multinationals, broke Brazil's historic ban on transgenic crops in 1998 by approving the safety of Monsanto Co.'s Roundup Ready soybeans it opened a floodgate of controversy in Latin America's agricultural giant. Environmental groups led by Greenpeace have been teaming up with farmers worried about losing business to transgenic-wary European consumers to oppose the testing.

    CTNBio, however, gave its first-ever authorization to destroy a transgenic test crop. It argued AgrEvo did not provide the necessary covering or buffer zone to prevent contamination of nearby non-genetically modified crops.
     

    FLOWER POWER:
    COMING TO A SUPERMARKET NEAR YOU

    With years of experience in selling and distributing perishable products , strong brand recognition, and existing "relationships" with supermarket chains Dole Foods and Sunkist Growers Inc. are about to enter the $15 billion floral business.

    Currently the U.S. is the largest market of worldwide fresh flowers although it ranks 13th in capita consumption just behind Slovenia.

    Risking, according to industry sources, the reputation of their overall brand names in pineapples, bananas, oranges and other fruits the two companies will be faced with maintaining the quality and freshness of their flowers. Floral industry surveys, according to the Los Angeles Times, show that Americans limit their floral purchases because they consider fresh flowers a poor value--too expensive and not long-lasting enough.

    Sunkist flowers, therefore, will come with a seven-day replacement guarantee, and packaging is stamped with a sell-by date, like milk, while Dole will time its delivery schedules to supermarkets so that its flowers never sit on supermarket shelves for more than two or three days.

    Some supermarkets --- Ralph's, Albertson's, Von's, Safeway ---  already sell their own house brand of flowers. The move into branding, according to the Times, is part of a larger trend of consolidation in the highly fragmented floral business, one of the last still dominated by mom-and-pop businesses and with few national brand names.

    Dole and Washington-based U.S.A. Floral Products Inc., a flower wholesaler that has licensed the Sunkist name, are buying up growers, importers, wholesalers and bouquet makers--consolidating what insiders say is a diffuse distribution system. The companies have been able to trim costs and the time it takes to get flowers to market--factors which will be essential to the potential success of the Dole and Sunkist brands.

    The latest move to brand-name flowers is also a challenge to the nation's some 40,000 independent florists who will more than likely be faced with the choice of selling out their business or closing their doors rather than compete with the supermarkets, while others, according to industry sources, will benefit from the increased awareness of flowers generated by increased supermarket advertising.

    Although supermarkets will offer consumers a convenient place to shop for flowers, the one big hurdle facing Sunkist and Dole is that they must rely on supermarket employees to properly maintain flowers and remove old bouquets from the shelves. Dole and Sunkist are currently training supermarket employees on flower-handling.
     

    FOOD FOR THOUGHT

    "It is one thing to say with the prophet Amos,
    'let justice roll down like mighty waters,'
    and quite another to work out the irrigation system."
    --- William Sloan Coffin



     
      --------------1A3DDFEFA85E8C5400601470-- --------------937BDE69DF783A87AE1D85BE-- --------------95910C5B6D9CC84987479AFF-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 11 12:20:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA07075 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20470 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27212; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:11:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27095 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 11:10:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bucky.excite.com ([199.172.152.80]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990511161049.MLWW14444.gigi@bucky.excite.com>; Tue, 11 May 1999 09:10:49 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net, JCHodgson@aol.com, amaranth@uninets.net, maribou@infocom.com, amrmeb@ime.net, michaelafarm@seidata.com Cc: oeffa@iwaynet.net, Organic4um@aol.com, pastpat@thepoint.net, savage@alltel.net, teny10@yahoo.com, abundant@olypen.com Subject: Fwd: LET'S HAVE A PARTY! (actually, let's have 11!) Message-Id: <926439012.15462.143@excite.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:10:12 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.205 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 > From: Robert Cohen <" i4crob"@idt.net> > To: info@thecampaign.org > Cc: scott fuller , > " (Matthew Isaac Brown)" , biotech-L@cornell.edu > Subject: LET'S HAVE A PARTY! (actually, let's have 11!) > Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 07:47:01 -0400 > Message-ID: <373818B5.5AD@idt.net> > > The Campaign to Label Genetically Engineered Foods wrote: > > ...we started a new non-profit 501(c)4 political advocacy organization > called The Campaign to Label Genetically Engineered Foods. > I know what I'm doing this summer-do you? > We need more media coverage... > > Dear Friends, > I write a DAILY column and this one relates to your mission: > > > DAIRY DIARY - SQUIRTS OF NOTMILK WISDOM > > WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE HEARD > > WILL THE GOVERNMENT LISTEN TO YOU? > > You and I, American citizens, have been invited to testify at USDA > hearings. > > The Clinton Administration is seeking a broad range of advice and ideas > to help form U.S. agricultural trade policy. The USDA has invited > farmers and ranchers, processors, exporters and consumers to voice their > comments.and concerns relating to products from new technologies. This > means GENETICALLLY ENGINEERED FOODS! > > HERE IS OUR ONE LAST CHANCE! > > DO WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHAT WE ARE EATING? > > Manufacturers and processors do not want you to know whether your food > is genetically engineered or not. I believe that we have a right to > know. Mistakes in genetic engineering have been made and continue to be > made. That is the point of my own personal opinion. I want the right > to make a choice. Do you? > > PUT A LABEL ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS > > How about the double helix? Put a label on any food product so changed > by modern technology. I demand the right to know. A simple label is > all that I request. I do not need the surgeon general's warning, with > an editorial. Just an insignia. If enough people ask for this, we'll > get it! > > HERE IS WHAT YOU CAN DO: > > REGISTER IN YOUR DISTRICT > > MAKE A PHONE CALL TODAY > > If you live in one of the states in your district, please come to that > hearing. It will give you the opportunity to meet other interested > parties including activists and environmentalists. If these hearings > are anything like last year's USDA ORGANIC FOOD STANDARD hearings, this > is an opportunity to share ideas with those who want safe foods. Join > those who dedicate their lives to making a difference. > > JUNE 4 - Winter Haven, Florida (Nora Mayo Hall) > CONTACT: Will Bussey (850) 488-3022 > STATES: Florida > > JUNE 7 - St. Paul, Minnesota (Holiday Inn, St. Paul, East) > CONTACT: Darla Riley (651) 282-5140 > STATES: Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wisconsin > > JUNE 16 - Memphis, Tennessee (Agri-Center International) > CONTACT: Joe Gaines (615) 837-5160 > STATES: Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Kentucky, North Carolina, > South Carolina, Mississippi, Arkansas > > JUNE 24 - Indianapolis, Indiana (Indiana State Fair) > CONTACT: Julia Wickard (317) 232-8778 > STATES: Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, West Virginia > > JUNE 29 - Sacramento, California (California Department of Food and > Agriculture) > CONTACT: Marjorie Beazer (916) 654-0462 > STATES: California, Hawaii, Arizona > > JUNE 30 - Pullman, Washington (To be determined) > CONTACT: Lisa Schumaker (360) 902-1926 > STATES: Washington, Idho, Oregon, Alaska > > JULY 8 - Austin, Texas (The Texas State Capitol) > CONTACT: Dawn DeBerry (512) 475-1615 > STATES: Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico > > JULY 12 - Des Moines, Iowa (To be determined) > CONTACT: Joan Kiernan (515) 281-5323 > STATES: Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska > > JULY 19 - Burlington, Vermont (To be determined) > CONTACT: Theresa Doyle (802) 828-2430 > STATES: Vermont, New York, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, > Connecticut, Rhode Island > > JULY 23 - Bozeman, Montana (To be determined) > CONTACT: Montana Department of Agriculture (406) 444-3144 > STATES: Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, Utah > > JULY 23 - Newark, Delaware (University of Delaware) > CONTACT: Brenda Minor (302) 739-4811 > STATES: Delaware, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Virginia, Maryland > > Robert Cohen > 201-871-5871 > > http://www.antidairycoalition.com http://www.notmilk.com Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 11 13:58:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09412 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25799 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 13:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05283; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:48:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05150 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 12:47:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool010-max9.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.3.60]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05202 for ; Tue, 11 May 1999 10:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990510215439.009a6cb0@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 21:54:39 -0700 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: Missouri has loans available for alternative agriculture In-Reply-To: <3735AB9B.80716DDD@nemaine.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 Published Sunday, May 9, 1999, in the Kansas City Star ------------------------------------------------------------ BEHIND THE SCENES Missouri has loans available for alternative agriculture If you're into "alternative agriculture," Missouri has money for you. The state's Alternative Loan Program can provide up to $20,000 at 8 percent interest for five years. The program has $1.6 million available, though some already is on loan and not all loans are for five years. Borrowers can use the money for what the Missouri Department of Agriculture calls "a variety of alternative projects, including horticulture production and marketing, aquaculture, tree and landscape farming, fee hunting areas, organic production enterprises and value-added endeavors." (snip) Quote of the week "My collection is just under $7,000. My wife says it's the kids' college fund." Vince Peyton, an Olathe resident who waited for a Toys R Us store to open so he could buy action figures from the new "Star Wars" movie. - Compiled by Mark DavisNewsHound is a service of Knight-Ridder, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------ NewsHound is a service of Knight-Ridder, Inc. For more information, visit the NewsHound website at http://www.newshound.com or send an email to speak@hound.com. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 12 01:50:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23846 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10789 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 01:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20950; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:43:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20889 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 00:42:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27755 invoked from network); 12 May 1999 05:42:26 -0000 Received: from a48-01-12.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.12) (216.26.11.12) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 12 May 1999 05:42:26 -0000 Message-ID: <373916A8.4374@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 22:50:34 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Intergalactic Garage CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: drip irrigation References: <199905092347.TAA27845@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 Intergalactic Garage wrote: 1. Do I need to use a pressure regulator with drip tape? You should use both a pressure regulator and a filter. Without the regulator you will probably blow out the tape, although running it at 1-1/2 to 2 times the recommended pressure may keep it from plugging up as fast, perhaps double the life of the tape. DO NOT RUN DRIP TAPE WITHOUT A FILTER. Even very small particles will plug up emitters. 3. AND, what's a good mail order supplier of this system? We get most of the parts as well as the tape (in 3,000 foot rolls) at our local well and pump supply house, but we live in an agricultural town. Where are you located? Peaceful Valley Farm Supply in Grass Vaslley, California has a good array of parts and tape, but shipping to you may be too expensive. I'm sure others know local suppliers throughout the country, but unless we know where you are it is hard to help. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 12 18:10:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11089 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 18:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09525 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 18:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15608; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:02:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (xavier.ups.com [198.80.14.117]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15355 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 16:59:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from xavier.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UPS) with ESMTP id RAA03698 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (smtp.field4.ups.com [153.2.2.62]) by xavier.ups.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/UPS) with ESMTP id RAA03623; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from revere4.telecom.ups.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with ESMTP id RAA02441; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nyc1cdb.ups.com ([10.20.227.50]) by revere4.telecom.ups.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8/UPS) with SMTP id RAA02436; Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001101be9cc2$a6ff72e0$32e3140a@nyc1cdb.ups.com> Reply-To: "Ann Sterling" From: "Ann Sterling" To: "W-H List" Cc: "csa list" Subject: cheese Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 17:59:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 I'm interested in cheesemaking, possibly for small scale direct sales (farmer's market maybe), anyone have experience in this? What restrictions, codes, things to look out for etc.? Any and all input welcomed Ann Sterling nyc1axw@nermail.ups.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 12 23:49:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16545 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02781 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 23:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07444; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:41:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07370 for ; Wed, 12 May 1999 22:41:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 22980 invoked from network); 13 May 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Received: from a48-01-40.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.40) (216.26.11.40) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 May 1999 03:41:00 -0000 Message-ID: <373A4BB5.23BE@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 12 May 1999 20:49:10 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ann Sterling CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: cheese References: <001101be9cc2$a6ff72e0$32e3140a@nyc1cdb.ups.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 When asking for help, particularly about subjects which have legal implications, it helps to know were you are geographically. Federal laws tend to be the same across the country (at least in the US), but even they can vary from region to region. Many food items are also regulated state by state, and the laws can very widely. For instance, here in Oregon chicken eggs are regulated but duck eggs are not - except for the underlying basic safe food handling regulations. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 13 14:43:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28882 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25643 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA21455; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:35:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA21317 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 13:34:07 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (8042) by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dLMa027691 for ; Thu, 13 May 1999 14:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5bb17aa5.246c74a8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 14:32:08 EDT Subject: Intern Wanted To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 288 Must have farmer's market and CSA experience. Not an apprenticeship, a chance to practice what you already know and learn a bit more. The right person can keep things moving here while I work an off-farm job in the city, returning to help on weekends. Free room, board, $50 guaranteed weekly cash stipend, and profit share from sales. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com/agrove1.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 14 18:07:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28196 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07911 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19055; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:59:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18951 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:57:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [12.73.96.121] by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990514215722.IWMW10925@[12.73.96.121]> for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 21:57:22 +0000 Message-ID: <00d001be9e56$421808c0$e660490c@ELN/cyberbamm> From: "Garth Bammer" To: Subject: (Not so) Permanent Markers Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:19:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 Dori Green wrote: I wish to point out it's not the marker that's the problem when trying to use those plastic plant labels, it's the plastic plant labels. No pen works at all on them; I don't know what they were thinking when they created them for that use. What I do is either write on masking tape with ball point pen and wrap the plastic marker with the tape (to use up the supply of plastic ones I have) or use wood ones, like popsicle sticks. The pen works great there. Just a note from someone who would like to see the "snotty letter" go to the truly problematic source! Laura Bammer CSA wanna be, Renton, Washington From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 14 18:12:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29287 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11324 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19606; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:04:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18967 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 16:58:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [12.73.96.121] by mtiwmhc03.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07 118 124) with SMTP id <19990514215733.IWOG10925@[12.73.96.121]> for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 21:57:33 +0000 Message-ID: <00d101be9e56$48ac9ac0$e660490c@ELN/cyberbamm> From: "Garth Bammer" To: "CSA List" Subject: Re: Farm celebrations and pumkins Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 14:27:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 290 -----Original Message----- From: Will Newman II the spring and one day in the fall.> Please let us know what the dates are in June and September; I'd like to visit your farm this year myself. Thanks too for all your good advice -- you're very thorough. Laura Bammer CSA wannabe, Renton, WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 14 18:54:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01921 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24816 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA22093; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:45:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21814 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 17:41:55 -0500 (CDT) From: DGreen47@aol.com Received: from DGreen47@aol.com (4423) by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dFINa05661 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6d9684df.246e0027@aol.com> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:39:35 EDT Subject: Re: (Not so) Permanent Markers To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 291 In a message dated 5/14/99 5:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cyberbamm@worldnet.att.net writes: << Just a note from someone who would like to see the "snotty letter" go to the truly problematic sourc >> I understand your piont, but the darned thing is clearly marked "Permanent on ALL Surfaces". Still waffling about putting any time toward sitting down and writing the thing. And looking for a source for a big box of wooden popsicle sticks! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living Corning, NY http://www.agrove.com/agrove1.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 14 19:16:30 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02208 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 19:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02200 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 19:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23425; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:08:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23367 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:08:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26881>; Fri, 14 May 1999 18:11:03 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: "Garth Bammer" cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99May14.181103cdt.26881@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 18:06:32 -0500 Subject: Re: (Not so) Permanent Markers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 292 Pencil seems to work though.... "Garth Bammer" on 05/14/99 04:19:58 PM To: csa-l@prairienet.org cc: Subject: (Not so) Permanent Markers Dori Green wrote: I wish to point out it's not the marker that's the problem when trying to use those plastic plant labels, it's the plastic plant labels. No pen works at all on them; I don't know what they were thinking when they created them for that use. What I do is either write on masking tape with ball point pen and wrap the plastic marker with the tape (to use up the supply of plastic ones I have) or use wood ones, like popsicle sticks. The pen works great there. Just a note from someone who would like to see the "snotty letter" go to the truly problematic source! Laura Bammer CSA wanna be, Renton, Washington From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 14 20:11:39 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03014 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 20:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20002 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 20:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26347; Fri, 14 May 1999 19:03:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26284 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 19:02:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-38.raex.com [216.196.24.38]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA15737 for ; Fri, 14 May 1999 20:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009a01be9e66$0f052200$2618c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: Subject: RE: (not so) permanent markers Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 20:01:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 293 Hi all, And looking for a source for a big box of wooden popsicle sticks! One good source is restaraunt supply places. I buy 1200 at a time for $4 or so. They are wooden coffee stirrers. Very handy. They are a little thinner than actual popcycle sticks but work pretty well if you write small. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 15 15:08:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10175 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13414 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA00261; Sat, 15 May 1999 14:00:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00181 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 13:59:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.149.187.43] (pAp43.pond.net [207.149.187.43]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA00626 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 11:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905151848.LAA00626@guppy.pond.net> Subject: Re: (Not so) Permanent Markers Date: Sat, 15 May 99 12:03:56 -0700 x-sender: cgrowers@mail.pond.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Aaron Silverman To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 We use white plastice labels to mark all trays, flats & pots (much of our starts & greens are grown in soil blocks in bread trays). I've found that the best writing implement by far is a carpenter's pencil - easy to sharpen, doesn't fade in water or sun, and allows the tags to be reused several times, depending on how neat the writer was. Simply wipe off the pencil with some old fashioned spit polish, and it's ready for another layer. Cheap too. Aaron Creative Growers Aaron Silverman 88741 Torrence Rd. Noti, Or. 97461 Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 15 17:06:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11130 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11107 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA03687; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:58:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03631 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 15:58:02 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (7810) by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dSJKa19535; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1bb2c85b.246f39af@aol.com> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 16:57:19 EDT Subject: Re: (Not so) Permanent Markers To: DGreen47@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 295 My sharpie marker has lasted a few seasons on the plastic markers. No other permanent marker works though. Suzy From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 15 17:20:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11256 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14087 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04184; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:12:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vm4-ext.prodigy.net (vm4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.137]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04129 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 16:11:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB102-27.splitrock.net [209.156.66.27]) by vm4-ext.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA194468; Sat, 15 May 1999 17:11:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199905152111.RAA194468@vm4-ext.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , Subject: Re: (Not so) Permanent Markers Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 17:01:57 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 296 1000 popsicle sticks ("craft sticks" in their parlance) at Frank's Nursery, $2.99. made by Forster, probably available at most craft stores. noreen willhelm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat May 15 22:39:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15129 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 22:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19056 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 22:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA13759; Sat, 15 May 1999 21:31:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from post1.fast.net (post1.fast.net [198.69.204.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13656 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 21:29:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gregbowm (maxtnt08-abe-147.fast.net [205.147.196.147]) by post1.fast.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA29593 for ; Sat, 15 May 1999 22:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <373E2809.3CAE@fast.net> Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 22:06:01 -0400 From: Greg Bowman X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: RE: (Not so) permanent markers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 Laura Bammer wrote: I wish to point out it's not the marker that's the problem when trying to use those plastic plant labels, it's the plastic plant labels. No pen works at all on them;.../snip/ Friends: This is Greg Bowman from Indian Creek Community Farm, a teaching micro-farm for people across broad range of abilities, using the rudiments of the Biointensive method. Plastic mini-blind louvers seem to hold permanent marker longer than the plastic stakes, especially if you use the up side that's been a bit degraded (roughened) by the sun's UV rays. They work fine cut down small in seedling trays and in loose soil; not so well outside when soil is really firm. When I need plant IDs for tall plants, I staple a 12 inch section of louver to a 1.5x1.5x48 oak or cherry stake (trim waste from a local cabinetry shop). Over winter, one of those green abrasive pads for wet sanding works well to remove the lettering for reuse. For heavy duty use, try the vinyl clad metal mini-blinds. I take some extra time to snip of the top corners at a 45-degree angle to avoid anyone getting scratched by the sharp metal edge. And watch where those little snips of metal go. -- Greg Bowman Program coordinator, Indian Creek Communty Farm P.O. Box 225 Harleysville PA 19438 215.245.0364 H:610.845.2436 Communicating for whole farms...for whole communities...for the whole world. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 17 11:37:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12248 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09566 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 11:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27251; Mon, 17 May 1999 10:29:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtpgate.dphe.state.co.us (smtpgate.dphe.state.co.us [165.127.8.106]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27111 for ; Mon, 17 May 1999 10:27:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from DPHED1-Message_Server by smtpgate.dphe.state.co.us with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 17 May 1999 09:25:03 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:18:55 -0700 From: Laurie Fisher To: csa-l@prairienet.org, busson@raex.com Subject: RE: (not so) permanent markers -Reply Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 Regarding wooden popsicle sticks: either a hobby supply store or the craft secion of (forgive me) Wal-Mart will have boxes of 1000 for a few buck. Laurie Fisher Colorado CSA fan From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 18 23:06:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00785 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 23:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01293 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 22:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03845; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:58:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03753 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 21:56:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25414 invoked from network); 19 May 1999 02:56:28 -0000 Received: from a48-02-27.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.91) (216.26.11.91) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 02:56:28 -0000 Message-ID: <37422A52.D9C@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:04:51 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garth Bammer CC: CSA List Subject: Re: Farm celebrations and pumkins References: <00d101be9e56$48ac9ac0$e660490c@ELN/cyberbamm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 299 Open farm day this year is Juneteenth (Saturday, June 19th) from 1 to 5 pm. Our Harvest Festival is Saturday, September 18th from 1 to 9 pm. If you have a fax number I can fax you a map. Laura Bammer wrote: "Please let us know what the dates are in June and September; I'd like to visit your farm this year myself. Laura Bammer CSA wannabe, Renton, WA" WE'RE ALL WANNABES, some of us have just been getting ready longer Will From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue May 18 23:15:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00911 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 23:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05511 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 23:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04563; Tue, 18 May 1999 22:07:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04050 for ; Tue, 18 May 1999 22:01:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27254 invoked from network); 19 May 1999 03:01:29 -0000 Received: from a48-02-27.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.91) (216.26.11.91) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 May 1999 03:01:29 -0000 Message-ID: <37422B7E.7FB4@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 20:09:52 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: carol busson CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers References: <009a01be9e66$0f052200$2618c4d8@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 A word of warning: in truly active soil wooden markers tend to rot. We sometimes use 1/8 inch by 1 inch by 8 inch wood markers in beds for farm tours. We can't get them through a season. The miniblinds I talked about, marked with Sharpie pens last 3 to 4 years before we have to re-mark them. As I said before, we mark them with numbers, not names, and keep a log of what the numbers mean. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 19 09:30:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06426 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14609 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 09:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26873; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:22:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26497 for ; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:18:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA02580; Wed, 19 May 1999 08:17:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-54.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.54) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002552; Wed May 19 08:16:59 1999 Message-ID: <00b101bea1f9$84acd340$36fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Visiting Pets (was baby-proofing a farm) Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:14:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 301 Hi people, We its finally raining albeit sprinkling fingers crossed it keeps going all day. Its such a good excuse to play on the computer, although hindered by the fact that my mouse arrow is invisible, still works but sort of by random clicking very annoying. Well I wrote my newsletter and have about 1/2 of them mailed. I appriciated everyone imput on "rules". When I told my husband I was going to be tough and put in the newsletter "watch your kids and no pets" he was "Well maybe not in the first newsletter........" I said yes first one rules upfront. Well a few days later two ladies came up (they knew our membership was full but wanted to see the farm), they brought with them two pony sized dogs a great dane and a dobermin, they jumped out of the car window, my husband rushed our dogs into the house. The ladies said is it alright if the dogs walk around I said they won't hurt my critters, cows and horses, they said no. As far as dogs go they were ok, but they kept wanting to run into the garden. When they left my husband said "They should have got your newsletter" I said see thats why no pets. Its fun to be right :). This is what I wrote:Health and Happiness: I know from speaking to you that you have choosen Green Hill Farm as a healthy alternative to supermarket produce, "safe" food we might say. On those same lines of safety, I would be remiss if I did not caution those with small children to never leave them unattended. The farm is a busy, exciting, and awesome place especially for a toddler. However there are places that deserve respect. The obvious one is the animals. None of our animals have ever shown any signs of aggression to humans, buty they also show no regard to how they move in relation to where we are standing. I got kicked in the knoee by one of the big horses, simply because I was in his space as he was literally jumping for joy at being let out into the field. It was very "ouchy". The cows with their big horns wave their heads around at fly's etc. The fence is electric and wihile harmless its zap isn't pleasant. Of course there is the equipment and the street but you get the idea. I go on to say stuff about tours education setting up a play area, and then I tell them to come get a Pumpkin kit a cup, soil, seed. The child will label the cup with their name, plant the seed and bring it back to me. We will plant it and tag it with their name and they can watch their pumpkin(s) grow all summer and their harvest it. Pets basically I said strange dogs and farm animals don't mix and said how the donkey kicks dogs (he does) an our own dogs give him his space. Well just thought I'd write since the message level has decreased, gee think we're busy? When it rains where you are you can have an excuse to write. PS Dumb question: If I could find some potatoes at a health food store could they be planted? I ask because I'd like to plant blue potatoes and am not finding seed potatoes. I just want a few to be fun. Beth disregard spelling errors with my mouse not working I can't get back into the text or spell check. -----Original Message----- From: DGreen47@aol.com To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, May 04, 1999 6:45 PM Subject: Re: Visiting Pets (was baby-proofing a farm) >>From our brochure and repeated with a bit of expansion in our member handbook: > >"Visitors are welcome on Sunday afternoons between 2 and 6 PM or at other >times by appointment. Pets are safer and happier at home." > >Lots of people think it's a fine and wonderful thing to bring their dogs up >to the farm for a run, with or without permission. One look at my Great >Pyrenees livestock guardian -- who takes his job VERY seriously -- is enough >to convince most of them that the park is a better spot for such sport. > >The statement in the member handbook is more direct: "Dogs and other pets >are not permitted at the farm. No exceptions." Period. > >Dori Green >Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living >Corning, NY > >http://www.agrove.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 20 01:51:32 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27997 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 01:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA25286 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 01:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA03449; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:43:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA03346 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 00:41:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 6350 invoked from network); 20 May 1999 05:41:30 -0000 Received: from a48-02-10.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.74) (216.26.11.74) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 May 1999 05:41:30 -0000 Message-ID: <3743A283.49A@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:49:56 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Hook CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Visiting Pets (was baby-proofing a farm) References: <00b101bea1f9$84acd340$36fb6ed1@dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 302 Dan Hook wrote: "...question: If I could find some potatoes at a health food store could they be planted? I ask because I'd like to plant blue potatoes and am not finding seed potatoes. I just want a few to be fun." I don't know where you are, but in Oregon it is generally a bad idea to plant store-bought potatoes, especially organic, due to the liklihood that they carry disease. Not a problem as far as eating is concerned, but for planting they can lead to serious infestation. And the disease lingers in the soil, so subsequent plantings, even if disease free when planted, will be infected. We buy only certified disease-free seed potatoes. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 20 06:57:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA00189 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26990 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10188; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:49:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10133 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:48:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id FAA12274; Thu, 20 May 1999 05:46:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-195.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.195) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012269; Thu May 20 05:46:25 1999 Message-ID: <009201bea2ad$aac60a60$19fc6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "carol busson" Cc: Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:43:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 Thank-you Will someone else advised the same thing. I am in Massachusetts which is dryer (too dry at the moment) than the NW, but I don't need any diseases in the garden! Beth -----Original Message----- From: Will Newman II To: carol busson Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 11:07 PM Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers >A word of warning: in truly active soil wooden markers tend to rot. We >sometimes use 1/8 inch by 1 inch by 8 inch wood markers in beds for farm >tours. We can't get them through a season. > >The miniblinds I talked about, marked with Sharpie pens last 3 to 4 >years before we have to re-mark them. > >As I said before, we mark them with numbers, not names, and keep a log >of what the numbers mean. > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 20 07:12:55 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01451 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 07:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29454 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 07:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA10742; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:04:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10697 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:04:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA13059; Thu, 20 May 1999 06:02:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1-195.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.195) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma013044; Thu May 20 06:02:38 1999 Message-ID: <00c901bea2af$ef1ec420$19fc6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Dan Hook" , , "carol busson" Cc: Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:00:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 I clicked on the wrong message to Reply to All. I was answering Will message on planting store bought potatoes. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Dan Hook To: osalt@teleport.com ; carol busson Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Thursday, May 20, 1999 6:49 AM Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers >Thank-you Will someone else advised the same thing. I am in Massachusetts >which is dryer (too dry at the moment) than the NW, but I don't need any >diseases in the garden! Beth >-----Original Message----- >From: Will Newman II >To: carol busson >Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org >Date: Tuesday, May 18, 1999 11:07 PM >Subject: Re: (not so) permanent markers > > >>A word of warning: in truly active soil wooden markers tend to rot. We >>sometimes use 1/8 inch by 1 inch by 8 inch wood markers in beds for farm >>tours. We can't get them through a season. >> >>The miniblinds I talked about, marked with Sharpie pens last 3 to 4 >>years before we have to re-mark them. >> >>As I said before, we mark them with numbers, not names, and keep a log >>of what the numbers mean. >> >>Will Newman II >>CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >>Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust >> >> > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 20 20:34:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18356 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24707 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 20:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02251; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:26:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02202 for ; Thu, 20 May 1999 19:25:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 1639 invoked from network); 21 May 1999 00:25:30 -0000 Received: from a48-01-33.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.33) (216.26.11.33) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 21 May 1999 00:25:30 -0000 Message-ID: <3744A9F4.5BD2@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:34:00 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Madsen CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Visiting Pets (was baby-proofing a farm) References: <000e01bea2cf$3af7c940$0100005a@john> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 305 "Hi Will, where is your favorate place to get these seed potatoes? John" >From Irish Eyes (formerly Ronniger's). They are on the web at http://www.irish-eyes.com Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust (OSALT) HEY EVERYBODY!! Our web page is sort of up at www.osalt.org (once you get ther you need to click on "osalt/") From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 26 14:32:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19087 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26703 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27867; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:21:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.58.198]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27527 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:18:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB103-26.splitrock.net [209.156.66.72]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA90642 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:18:11 -0400 Message-Id: <199905261818.OAA90642@pimout4-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: "CSA List" Subject: when pickup is days away Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 14:09:18 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 306 Help! Pickup isn't scheduled for another four days, yet the lettuce and radishes are ready today. Should i pick and refrigerate or just let it sit there until pickup day, so as to assure optimum freshness? and one more thing: i think i underplanted snow peas and i'm afraid that i'll only be harvesting a few pounds at a time. do i just divvy up what i've got among members or what? for those of you who sent us good wishes when we got started, i want to report that we have 14 member households and at least three who've expressed strong interest. we had about 12 folks (8 households) out for our first workday on may 15 and they got an amazing amount of work done. (i didn't -- i was too busy giving directions, training, and organizing the food!) nonetheless, it was a very exciting start. thanks for your help. noreen spring run farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 26 14:45:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19310 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01304 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29298; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:36:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28338 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:28:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EBKKY4W7; Wed, 26 May 1999 14:27:50 EDT To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:31:10 -0700 Subject: growing for market Message-ID: <19990526.113110.-261573.0.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,6-8 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 307 Dear fellow CSAers, I am in the process of moving and most all of my belongings have found their way to storage, including all my copies of growing for market. Now I realize I need to send them a change of address card so I can continue to receive my copy! Could someone forward me the address? Oh, I am also looking for the address of Organic Gardening magazine--need to change that address also....Thanks in advance and happy growing! Michael Isensee brike1@juno.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 26 17:06:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23560 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 17:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01578 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 16:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA11065; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:53:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10896 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 15:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.137.54 (sa-165-227-137-54.cruzio.com [165.227.137.54]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id NAA25507; Wed, 26 May 1999 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374BEFE8.4BD0@mariquita.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 12:58:17 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: VINCEMCKELVEY@prodigy.net CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: doling out snow peas References: <199905261818.OAA90642@pimout4-int.prodigy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 Vincent: We have been troubled by peas in the past: if we had enough plants to produce a pound or more per share, at nearly 200 shares, we would be BURIED in snow (snap, English) peas. So! We have a 'mystery vegetable', which we explain to our members is for the items that are labor intensive to harvest and need to be picked at all the time: peas, cherry tomatoes, squash. Then the different pickup locations take turns for the peas etc. We haven't had any complaints, and it uses up what else you have too much of... Good luck. Julia -- --------------------------------------------------- Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables (831)761-3226 e-mail: csa@mariquita.com web site: http://www.mariquita.com P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 --------------------------------------------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 26 21:27:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28337 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02084 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA29043; Wed, 26 May 1999 20:17:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from saturn.ausaid.gov.au (saturn.ausaid.gov.au [202.6.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28943 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 20:16:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: by saturn.ausaid.gov.au; id LAA28470; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:16:12 +1000 (EST) Received: from degas.ausaid.gov.au(202.6.37.150) by saturn.ausaid.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma028359; Thu, 27 May 99 11:15:52 +1000 Received: from ccMail by degas.ausaid.gov.au (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 000E50D0; Thu, 27 May 1999 11:15:03 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:13:08 +1100 Message-ID: <000E50D0.005013@ausaid.gov.au> From: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au (Anton Vikstrom) Subject: HOW MUCH? Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 Gday All I am presently doing a business plan for a CSA in Canberra, Australia (Cool Temperate climate with about 7 months a year without frost). I have a few questions that your wealth of knowledge may help me with how much vegetables are you putting into say a $20 box (the currencies are different but purchasing power parity similar) does it work out as the equivelent as buying from organic grocers? or commercial stupermarkets? - i just want a target to aim for and/ What sort of time are you putting into each share. or to put it another way, how many shares can a single person manage without turning into a zombie and loosing their sense of humour? and/ any experience with alternative products such as, organic bread? homebrew beer? any information would be great. thanks anton PS its nice to be six months ahead/behind, it helps me plan a bit better. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed May 26 21:30:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28421 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02777 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 21:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA29425; Wed, 26 May 1999 20:22:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29182 for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 20:20:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990527012023.DNYZ17804.ewey@ringo.excite.com> for ; Wed, 26 May 1999 18:20:23 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: when pickup is days away Message-Id: <927767980.25385.541@excite.com> Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 18:19:40 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.134 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 310 I would leave the lettuce in the field unless it is about to bolt. Pick the radishes but don't clean them and refrigerate if you have the space. As to the peas-We had that problem last year and just divided what we had among the members. Congrats on getting so many members your first year. Looks like we will have 6 or 7 member families this year which is fine. we have had several very successful work days so far this year and pick-ups don't start until the first thursday in june. I am planning on letting the members pick what they want from a table and see how that goes. Picked the first full qt of strawberries today and bought a 10hp BCS tiller at an auction for $220. Now we have two BCS tillers and a sears front tined last year we had only the sears-whatta life! Hey, check out my new and improved website-no picts (having a problem with them loading correctly) but farm market news and CSA stuff plus loads of links. The hot link resides below my name. tell me what you think Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu May 27 20:41:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28756 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12631 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 20:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20297; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:32:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20219 for ; Thu, 27 May 1999 19:31:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ants.excite.com ([199.172.152.146]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.00.03.11 201-229-104-111) with ESMTP id <19990528003232.HOKO11358.gigi@ants.excite.com>; Thu, 27 May 1999 17:32:32 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, amrmeb@ime.net, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, splunker@aol.com, oeffa@iwaynet.net, Organic4um@aol.com, mckinsdr@muohio.edu, elfwood@erinet.com, savage@alltel.net, lemur-cat@erols.com Cc: coltom@dcr.net, teny10@yahoo.com, abundant@olypen.com, scottr@up.net, wool@willard-oh.com, YSZX29E@prodigy.com Subject: Fwd: USDA Advisory Committee Nominations Message-Id: <927851472.21068.382@excite.com> Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:31:12 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.144 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 311 > From: Mark Lipson > To: BIOTECH-L@cornell.edu > Subject: USDA Advisory Committee Nominations > Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:04:30 -0700 > Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990527150428.0077bfbc@ofrg.org> > > Friends, > > FYI: This is a USDA press release from Tuesday. > > > GLICKMAN SEEKING CANDIDATES FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY ADVISORY COMMITTEE > > > Release No. 0227.99 > > > Media Contact: Andy Solomon (202) 720-4623 > andy.solomon@usda.gov > Public Contact: Jerry Redding (202) 720-6959 > jerry.redding@usda.gov > > GLICKMAN SEEKING CANDIDATES FOR BIOTECHNOLOGY ADVISORY COMMITTEE > > WASHINGTON, May 24, 1999 Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman is seeking > candidates interested in serving on a new USDA Advisory Committee on > Biotechnology. Glickman announced in March that he was creating the Committee > to provide him with information and advice on policy related to the creation, > application, trade, and use of agricultural biotechnology. > > "My goal is for everyone who has a stake in the future of biotech -- > research scientists, social scientists, farmers, industry members, > environmentalists, and consumers -- to be represented on this panel," said > Glickman. "I hope the group can have a frank discussion about some of the > tough agricultural biotechnology issues facing USDA and the American people." > > Some of the topics that the Secretary has identified for the Committee's > early consideration include > > emerging trends in the development of agricultural applications of > biotechnology; > potential effects of industry concentration and consolidation on > farmers; > intellectual property rights and grower autonomy; > consumer perceptions of agricultural biotechnology; > potential effects of biotechnology on environmental quality; > ways to maximize or encourage potential and realized benefits of > biotechnology in different agricultural sectors; and > USDA's role in assuring that farmers have an array of choices for > future agricultural technology and practices. > > USDA encourages and supports the responsible development and utilization > of beneficial new agricultural products, including those produced through > biotechnology, and assures the safety of new products with a science-based > regulatory approach. > > A notice to be published this week in the Federal Register seeks > nominations for qualified candidates. Candidates should have expertise in any > of the range of science and policy issues that the Committee may consider. > USDA is actively seeking nominations of qualified minorities, women, persons > with disabilities and members of low-income populations. Potential candidates > should obtain the Federal Register notice either through the Government > Printing Office Internet website (http://www.gpo.gov) or their local library > prior to submitting nominations Nominations should include a resume, a > statement explaining the candidate's suitability to serve, and a completed > copy of form AD-755. They should be sent within 30 days to Michael > Schechtman, Office of the Deputy Secretary, USDA, 202B Whitten Federal > Building, 14th and Independence Ave., SW, Washington, DC 20250. > > The Secretary will select 25 members for the Committee so as to reflect > the diverse viewpoints about biotechnology policy issues facing USDA. > > # > > > Organic Farming Research Foundation > Mark Lipson, Policy Program Director > ph: 831-426-4006 or -6606; fax: 831-426-6670 > PO Box 440, Santa Cruz, CA 95061 > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 28 10:00:04 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07511 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26089 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 09:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA23715; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23554 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 08:49:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.138.209 (sa-165-227-138-209.cruzio.com [165.227.138.209]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id GAA07279 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 06:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <374E2FC6.6AC0@mariquita.com> Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 05:55:18 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA list Subject: buckets & recipes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 312 Hello, We are starting to sell more flowers at market and wanted to know if any of you has a phone # for a wholesale bucket supplier...thanks ALSO for any of you who 'do' recipes in a newsletter: this is a great link that I use every week: http://food.epicurious.com/e_eating/e02_recipes/enhance_search.html Just type in your vegetable or herb and up come the recipes, ready to copy and paste into your own files.... Julia -- --------------------------------------------------- Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables (831)761-3226 e-mail: csa@mariquita.com web site: http://www.mariquita.com P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 --------------------------------------------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri May 28 11:52:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10452 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02108 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02291; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:43:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02205 for ; Fri, 28 May 1999 10:42:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB110-28.splitrock.net [209.156.67.143]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA131068; Fri, 28 May 1999 11:42:44 -0400 Message-Id: <199905281542.LAA131068@pimout2-int.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , "CSA list" Subject: Re: buckets & recipes Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:40:32 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 313 thanks, julia! that website is GREAT. i used a couple of suggestions on how to use radishes from the good housekeeping cookbook in this week's newsletter -- in deviled eggs, sauted in butter and sauted with yellow peppers -- and people loved it. i put "radish" in at that site just now and got 119 recipes!! you bet that will be an important resource for us!. noreen spring run farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 31 17:09:37 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22930 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09180 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 17:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA22953; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x14.boston.juno.com (x14.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22848 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 15:58:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by x14.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EBYQLS6H; Mon, 31 May 1999 16:58:37 EDT To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 16:56:22 -0400 Subject: OK< I confess.... Message-ID: <19990531.165644.-442071.1.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,10-13,15-16,18-19,21-28 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 314 ......I am doing my first real garden this year. Aside from the 'great rabbit attack' which cost us our cabbage, broccilli, spinach, carrot tops, tomatoes and bell peppers, I have a question. I noticed my corn came up and then didn't want to go any further- some was the result of the rabbit attack, but the rest of it just didn't want to do anything. I used a couple of hybrid sweet varieties- I promise heirloom next year- and did a companion planting with some purple bush beans inbetween the rows. It all started nicely and then nothing. So what can I do to help the second planting do its' thing correctly? Also, what is a good way to fix Nitrogen to the soil..... Oh, and I'll be doing a re-plant here in the next bit. I like to do it by the signs. And we did indeed take care of the rabbit situation- the pies I made were outstanding and got rave reviews. Thanks, Betsy Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon May 31 21:58:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26421 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 21:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04176 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 21:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA06003; Mon, 31 May 1999 20:49:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05919 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 20:48:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool001-max13.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.4.1]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA24870 for ; Mon, 31 May 1999 18:48:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990528081745.009dc900@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:17:45 -0700 To: CSA list From: Fred Chambers Subject: Seeking San Diego, CA CSA - Shambala Farms In-Reply-To: <374E2FC6.6AC0@mariquita.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 315 Hello, Anyone have contact info for June Stein Shambala Farms PO Box 3627 Rancho Santa Fe, CA 92067 The US Postal address bounces: "Box closed, return to sender." Any ideas? Fred FMChambers@csupomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus and local groups encouraging Cal Poly to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit and post at: http://www.regen.org (BWA, SAFER, Regen site that kick's butt!) http://www.csupomona.edu/~vltenbrink/index.html (Victoria's Black Walnut Page) http://www.rokcircle.com/bbs/ (The Wilderness Forum) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 1 13:59:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08927 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22985 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 13:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21967; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:49:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web603.mail.yahoo.com (web603.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.167]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21836 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 12:48:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990601175028.1053.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.211.16.87] by web603.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 01 Jun 1999 10:50:28 PDT Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 10:50:28 -0700 (PDT) From: jared volpe Subject: CSA's in North America/World To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 316 Hello all, Where can I get information about how many CSA's there are in North America and the World? Thanks, Jared _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 1 22:14:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20104 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14512 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA26810; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:05:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA26654 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:03:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 2978 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 02:03:50 -0000 Received: from i48-16-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.234) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 02:03:50 -0000 Message-ID: <003301beac9c$d078b5c0$0100005a@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: Tillage Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:08:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEAC62.23599B00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEAC62.23599B00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are in the prosses of finding a good way to prepair our beds. What type of tilling are most people using. Plow disk, roto tiller, = spader, no till? ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEAC62.23599B00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    We are in the prosses of finding a = good way to=20 prepair our beds.
    What type of tilling are most people = using. Plow=20 disk, roto tiller, spader, no till?
    ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BEAC62.23599B00-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 1 22:23:42 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20185 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17024 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 22:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27367; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:14:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA26869 for ; Tue, 1 Jun 1999 21:06:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 3695 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 02:06:16 -0000 Received: from i48-16-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.234) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 02:06:16 -0000 Message-ID: <003b01beac9d$2753d140$0100005a@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: Flea Beatles! Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:10:56 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01BEAC62.7A4D2080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 318 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BEAC62.7A4D2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We are having an outbreak of flea Beatles. There are too many to control = by hand (though thwacking them into an oily container does work). I = spread some dolomite lime out and they don't like that. Any other = suggestions? ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BEAC62.7A4D2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    We are having an outbreak of flea = Beatles. There=20 are too many to control by hand (though thwacking them into an oily = container=20 does work). I spread some dolomite lime out and they don't like that. = Any other=20 suggestions?
    ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01BEAC62.7A4D2080-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 01:59:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23548 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06770 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 01:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA09751; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:49:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ux9.cso.uiuc.edu (root@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.39]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA09700 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:49:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [130.126.26.99] (jakarta-7.slip.uiuc.edu [130.126.26.99]) by ux9.cso.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27622 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:49:07 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:50:33 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Barclay Subject: CSA-L News and FAQ Update Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 319 1. Digest feature. 2. Responses from last survey. 3. Most Recent FAQ. -------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Digest feature and other useful feature: The CSA-L list may now be obtained in digest format. If you choose to receive CSA-L in digest format you will receive the entire set of messages from the previous day at 2:00am in one single message. The advantage to this is that it keeps your e-mail box uncluttered. The disadvantage is that there is up to a 24 hour turnaround on messages so you may unknowingly repeat what someone else has posted. To receive CSA-L in digest format, send an email addressed to listproc@prairienet.org with no subject line and only SET CSA-L MAIL DIGEST in the body of the message. i.e. To: listproc@prairienet.org From: jbarclay@prairienet.org Subject: ---------------------------- SET CSA-L MAIL DIGEST To turn off digest format, simply send the same message replacing SET CSA-L MAIL DIGEST with SET CSA-L MAIL -------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Responses from last survey: The last survey of CSA-L members asked which other email lists related to CSAs they are subscribed to. There were only a handful of responses so I'm not bothering with a summary. -------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Most Recent Frequently Asked Questions see: http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/FAQ.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 08:14:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26347 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05339 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20038; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:02:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19974 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:01:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from digger.excite.com ([199.172.152.82]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990602120113.OXPK2244.ewey@digger.excite.com>; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 05:01:13 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: madsenj@teleport.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Flea Beatles! Message-Id: <928324871.21805.777@excite.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 05:01:11 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.117 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 320 We have found two things work very well. The best is row cover. Put over all affected plants, this keeps the beetles out and also makes the plants grow faster and bigger-take it off a soon as you notice flowers and be sure to have a brick or rock (1lb or heavier) to place about every 2 or 3 feet on the cover's edge so it doesn't fly off in the wind. The other thing you can do is make a yellow sticky trap out od a 2 litre pop bottle. Squirt is the best because of the sceaming yellow lable but any will do if you cover them (paint or a yellow plastic bag). Fill the bottle with water and get the outside sticky (I use tanglefoot but I hear molassas works well too) and place one bottle for every 2 plants. The water heats up in the bottle which is attractive to flea beetles so they go there and get stuck. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 08:35:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26725 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09491 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA21026; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:24:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20965 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:24:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from batty.excite.com ([199.172.152.107]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990602122343.OUCG724.fortune@batty.excite.com> for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 05:23:43 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: The Season Starts Message-Id: <928326223.20562.80@excite.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 05:23:43 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.213 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 321 Well, We start pick-ups tomorrow. We will have lots of lettuces, spinach, popcorn, mesculun mix, mondo radishes (they are as bi as beets!) and eggs, not a normal item but eggs sales have been flat as of late so they all get eggs and I get a refigerator back for a few days. They also get strawberries, chives and some fresh herb bundles. I am leaning towards making a big pile of food and letting the members take what they want (this is all on farm pick-up) with the exception of the berries where they will be limited to 1 qt per person with the opportunity to buy more for a discount. I figure letting them take what they want will what they like, besides I have no boxes yet. So far the season has been good-the members have been very active and have given us lots of help and support. Though we have had one member potluck and while we had several folks out not one belonged to the CSA (though we will have another member in 2000 because of the potluck) The lack of members was my fault really-because of the heavy planting schedual I lost track of time and didn't remind anybody about the potluck until a few days before and everyone was going to be elsewhere. I learned and have already started reminding folks about our Solstice party. Next week will be very dicey as all the Boulder Belt CSA farmers are having surgeries -I get my mouth done (periodontal stuff) on Wed and my husband is getting a hernia operation (we may get the Dr to join the CSA in exchange for the surgery ) Since all this occurs on wed and thursday I don't know how we will get the CSA food together (much less get ready for our big Market on Saturday) I guess we will see how understanding they are about us making them miss a week. The good news is that we are getting rain right now (man do we need it!) and almost all the major planting is done and should be done before we all go under the knife and go on our pain vacation. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 09:50:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28105 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25954 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26060; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:38:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26012 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:37:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 29937 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 13:37:38 -0000 Received: from a48-01-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.24) (216.26.11.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 13:37:38 -0000 Message-ID: <375533D1.30F6@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 06:38:25 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jared volpe CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA's in North America/World References: <19990601175028.1053.rocketmail@web603.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 322 I try to keep an updated list for Oregon and SW Washington, but the most comprehensive list I know of is kept by the Biodynamic Gardening and Farming Association. As with any centralized list it is always a little out of date, but still the best I know. They probably have a web site. If someone knows the site address you might post it to all of us. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:08:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28488 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29898 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27577; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:57:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ultra.qni.com (qni.com [209.126.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27532 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:57:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from oemcomputer ([209.126.31.17]) by ultra.qni.com (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA21947; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:52:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: by oemcomputer with Microsoft Mail id <01BEACD5.A6467740@oemcomputer>; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:55:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BEACD5.A6467740@oemcomputer> From: Terry Harris To: "'CSA-L@prairienet.org'" Cc: "'nefood-l@sardonyx.tufts.edu'" , CSA West , NE FOOD List Subject: warning for virus Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:55:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 323 Hello CSA-L If you receive an e-mail titled "happy" do not open it for it is a self forwarding virus. Happy.exe is the trojan horse program. It got me and I noticed that it showed up again through CSA-L Good luck to all ... Terry From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:13:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28675 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01243 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:05:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28202; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:03:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27696 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 08:59:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 4539 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 13:59:36 -0000 Received: from a48-01-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.24) (216.26.11.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 13:59:36 -0000 Message-ID: <375538F8.6E6A@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:00:27 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Madsen CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Tillage References: <003301beac9c$d078b5c0$0100005a@john> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 Generally, never turn soil unless the benefits far outweigh the destruction. This is almost never true. In Nature, soil is rarely bare, and soil is rarely turned. When it is it is usually because of something we call "a natural disaster". At Natural Harvest Farm we work soil in two very different stages: The first stage is bringing the soil into balance. Test the soil - nutrients, micronutrients, CEC, pH, percent organic matter, base saturation levels, etc. Determine what is out of balance and what ammendments are needed to bring the soil into balance. Add the ammendments, then till or double dig to distribute the ammendments throughout the soil. Next year, do it again. This may take a number of years, usually at least 2 or 3. During this time you can plant harvestable crops, but focus on balancing the soil. The second stage comes once the soil is in balance, STOP TILLING. Tilling destroys soil. It breaks down soil tilth, increases the loss of nitrogen and the breakdown of organic matter, and kills a great deal of the microlife critical to plant/soil nutrition interchange. When we need to work soil after it is in balance we use a spader, which opens up the soil without turning it over. Keep testing the soil. Test it the same time each year, and send it to the same lab. Usually, once the soil is in balance it can be maintained by adding whatever ammendments are needed by broadcasting them on top of the soil and covering with good compost. In any case, add compost and/or a good organic mulch every year. For meadow plants (most veggies and fruit trees) use a balanced material for mulch (layer a mix of materials as you would for compost, only in thinner layers). This type of ammendment promotes bacterial dominated soil, which these plants prefer. For forest plants (blueberries, cane berries, roses, rhododendrons, etc.) use a high-lignin material (sawdust, wood chips, etc.) which will promote fungal-dominated soils, their preferred environment. In short, emulate Nature, which has been working just fine for quite a few years now. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Syustainable Agriculture Land TWrust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:18:41 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28766 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02334 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28738; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:08:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28678 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:08:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca ([206.172.93.80]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28816 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990602101845.007115b0@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:18:45 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Groundhogs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 325 Any suggestions on detering groundhogs from dining in my garden? Does urine really work? Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:23:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28879 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03528 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA29179; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:13:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA29085 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:12:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 8150 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 14:12:55 -0000 Received: from a48-01-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.24) (216.26.11.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 14:12:55 -0000 Message-ID: <37553C16.7A3E@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:13:46 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Madsen CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Questions about your spader References: <009e01beaca1$f237ae00$0100005a@john> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 326 John, See my prior reply today about turning soil. We really like the spader. We have borrowed a 5 foot wide spader from a friend for the last 3 or 4 years. We have run side by side comparisons in past years between the 5 foot spader and a 5 foot rotary tiller of our own. We have heavy clay soil. The soil is unquestionably better when spaded as opposed to tilled. We worked them at the end of the season and cover cropped them over wonter.In the spring the soil is clearly lighter, more open, drains better, retains more organic mattter and can be worked earlier. We just bought a spader of our own (bed sized - 3 feet wide) this season. Our tractor (an international 464) doesn't go slow enough, so we rent a small tractor to run the spader. It works the soil into a very nice bed in 1 or 2 passes - depends on the bed's history. We paid $3,200. from Ferarri Tractor CIE out of California. It was shipped direct to Portland from Italy. We picked it up at the Portland airport. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Syustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:29:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28977 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04996 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA29719; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:18:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29376 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from derby.excite.com ([199.172.152.144]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990602141443.PCRD724.fortune@derby.excite.com> for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 07:14:43 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Biodynamic URL Message-Id: <928332883.24724.978@excite.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:14:43 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 327 Demeter is the international certifacation body for Biodynamics and the URL is http://www.demeter.net/ Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:39:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29174 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07675 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA00743; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:27:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com (smtp.thestreet.com [208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00691 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:27:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([207.38.252.27]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:11:29 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990602071956.00f863b4@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:19:59 +0000 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Jeff Herr Subject: Fastest way to adjust PH Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 328 Hello all. We are working a new piece of land here and have found that, despite a good lime application two months ago, we are still acidic. We are in western Washington State. Still cool and regular rain. With crops in the ground, how long will it take to adjust the soil PH with some form of top dressing? In other words, how long does it take for the balance to begin shifting? And what form of buffering amendment is fastest acting, organic, and not detrimental to the short-term or long-term health of the soil and its inhabitants? Thanks! -- Jeff The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA 98014 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 10:45:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29265 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09205 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01573; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:34:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (root@iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us [206.79.15.19]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01517 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:34:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from horticulture ([206.79.96.50]) by iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07353 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3755425A.2C84@wiu.k12.pa.us> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 10:40:26 -0400 From: Mark Ohi Reply-To: mohi@wiu.k12.pa.us Organization: cwctc horticulture X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: bd website Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 329 Homepage for BD Farming and Gardening Association is http://www.biodynamics.com/ from Mark Ohi, lurking for a while, gathering good info on gardening. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 11:07:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29756 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15832 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 10:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03316; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02986 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 09:52:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 19599 invoked from network); 2 Jun 1999 14:52:08 -0000 Received: from a48-01-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.24) (216.26.11.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 2 Jun 1999 14:52:08 -0000 Message-ID: <37554548.5409@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 07:53:04 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Herr CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Fastest way to adjust PH References: <3.0.32.19990602071956.00f863b4@mail.thestreet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 330 Jeff Herr wrote: "Hello all. We are working a new piece of land here and have found that, despite a good lime application two months ago, we are still acidic. We are in western Washington State. Still cool and regular rain. With crops in the ground, how long will it take to adjust the soil PH with some form of top dressing? In other words, how long does it take for the balance to begin shifting? And what form of buffering amendment is fastest acting, organic, and not detrimental to the short-term or long-term health of the soil and its inhabitants?" --------------- It must be soil question season! pH is an indirect measure of soil health, as body temperature is an indirect measure of human health: if the soil is balanced, pH will be between 6.0 and 6.5 Simply because pH is between 6.0 and 6.5 does not mean the soil is balanced. Adding calcium may change pH, but not necessarily bring soil closer to balance. You must start with a comprehensive soil test, then ammend the soil based on the results. How much calcium to add, and in what form, and when, can vary depending on what else is going on in the soil. I recommend the soil testing available through Peaceful Valley Farm Supply in Grass Valley, California. Thye offer two soil tests - get them both. The first test can be ordered two ways: with or without an explanatory booklet. The first time you order a test get the booklet. Written by Amigo Contasano, it is the best short course in balancing soil I know of. It will tell you how to interpret the test results, what to add, when and how. In the western valleys we share a mixed blessing: lots of rain. The rain makes is difficult to keep calcium in the soil, so our soils tend to be acidic. Bringing soil into balance while crops are in it is tougher. It will probably be easier to add ammendments after the crop is harvested and before cover crops are planted because getting enough ammendments into the soil to bring it into balance usually means tilling or double digging. Adding lime to the soil in April may be too early in the season - a good deal of it may have been leached out before the microorganisms in the soil could make it available, and your crop wasn't there to use it. Plan to take a few years to get the soil into balance. We always plan on 3 years to bring a new field into production. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 14:03:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03624 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07405 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA17029; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16940 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:39:13 -0500 (CDT) From: FranksFarm@aol.com Received: from FranksFarm@aol.com (8049) by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dGXEa02587 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <63a0bbe4.2486c5e0@aol.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:37:36 EDT Subject: Re: Tillage To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 331 Hi Will, Great post on tillage or rather lack thereof. I've been much impressed with your comments/outlook. <> It mirrors my own philosophy too. he he Sounds like your place is just the kind of place I'd like my farm to evolve into. I have a lot of work before me though. I'm in south central Kentucky...and the soil is not bad but needs some amendments:) Always love to hear more about machinery labor saving tactics, techniques people like yourself are using. Sources of good quality low priced supplies etc. List comments are always appreciated. The more we share such ideas the better the chance for success for one and all:) Have a great season. Frank From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 2 15:38:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06321 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04393 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25326; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:27:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from debian (star04342.galstar.com [208.15.43.42]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25244 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:26:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from meta (really [192.168.100.2]) by galstar.com via in.smtpd with smtp id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:07:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:07:46 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: meta@mail.insnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Meta Bright Star Subject: Any farmers in So. Central USA? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 332 Hi, I live in Northeast Oklahoma and am looking for CSAs in or around Oklahoma. Have tried several sources, no success. Individuals actually in the South Central USA, please contact me. Thanks all and have a fine summer! Meta See a slide show at: www.galstar.com/~spencer/slides/ From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Jun 2 17:01:05 1999 Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08569 for ; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60344 "HELO localhost" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE") by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <165282-280>; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:51:47 -0400 Received: from smtp6.jps.net ([209.63.224.103]:56051 "EHLO smtp6.jps.net" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE[2]") by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <165329-283>; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 16:51:07 -0400 Received: from 209.239.196.138 (209-239-208-10.stk.jps.net [209.239.208.10]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA17832; Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <37559A00.BC3B47F8@jps.net> Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:54:29 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Doreen Nagle To: asac@agri-associations.org, asfmra@agri-associations.org, cfafca@fox.nstn.ca, erh11@home.com, question@cpma.ca, amandab@nrf.org, ippso@web.net, csae@mackenzie.usask.ca, hq@asae.org, agnic@agnic.org, Sals@rain.org, info@organicfood.com, organic@eatwell.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Permaculture on Indian reservation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01aC-DIAL (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Orcpt: rfc822;permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 Hi! We are the International Institute of Ecological Agriculture and are also organic farmers. In addition to running a CSA we are certified Permaculture instructors. We have some very exciting classes coming up, including one on the Black Foot Nation Indian Reservation at the foot of Glacier Mountain in Montana. Would you please help us get the word out to your members and volunteers? I am sending probably more information than you need: a blurb that can be used for a newsletter or online mailing, a bio of who we are, and our course descriptions. Please feel free to edit as you like and feel free to link to us at www.permaculture-institute.org Please call me at (415)454-2521 if you have any questions or would like to talk to Dave Blume, our Founder, personally. Thank you so much for your help in getting the word out. Also, if we can send you some flyers to hand out in your office, at meetings, etc. could you please email us dnagle@jps.net to let us know? In exchange for all your help, we will gratefully list you as a sponsor on our program and all our mailings and would be happy to link to you. Thanks, again. Doreen Nagle for the International Institute of Ecological Agriculture NEWSLETTER/WEBSITE BLURB NEW PERMACULTURE COURSES INCLUDES INDIAN RESERVATION Dave Blume, the founder of the International Institute for Ecological Agriculture and a certified Permaculture instructor, is honored to be chosen to lead a Permaculture Design course on the Black Foot Nation Indian reservation in Montana starting August 28th - September 12 th. A fascinating, knowledgeable and inspiring teacher, Blume, in addition to running his own CSA (Community Supported Agriculture project), has taught Permaculture to more than 8500 students in the past decade. Permaculture designs more than agriculture, it also designs livelihoods and lifestyles. Permaculture teaches how to mirror the natural earth patterns in a healthy environment by combining techniques for growing organic food, making shelters, creating energy and encouraging economy; Permaculture considers not just plants but water, trees, wildlife, weather and much more. Other certification courses include: August 1 - 15 at Our Farm in Woodside, California; and in Staatsburg, New York October 18 ? November 1. In addition, other classes plus a monthly tour of Our Farm are available. Whether you want to add Permaculture skills to your already existing business or just use the techniques in your own backyard, this is a very valuable technique to learn. The IIEA is happy to answer your questions personally about any of the courses. Please call 650-365-2993 or fax 650-366-2241. I.I.E.A., 834 West California Way, Woodside, Ca. 94062. Email: permaculture-institute@igc.org or visit www.permaculture-institute.org INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ECOLOGICAL AGRICULTURE Telephone: 1- 650-365-2993 www.permaculture-institute.org A 501(C)3 non-profit organization. 1999 COURSE DESCRIPTIONS 15 DAY PERMACULTURE CERTIFICATION: Whether you want to add Permaculture skills to your already existing landscaping, farming, ranching, environmental, teaching or building business, start a Permaculture business, help communities to feed themselves efficiently, earn a decent income on your own land or just garden and live this lifestyle in your own backyard, this class promises to be life-changing! This is the class where you will learn every facet of Permaculture and ecological agriculture from the best in the field.(Permaculture is a copyrighted word and in order to use the word for your own personal needs, you must be certified). I.I.E.A.s course is the most extensive, indepth, hands-on and personal; after a full day of learning, relaxed evenings often bring even more presentations. The entire group will practice their new skills through the creation of a group Permaculture design on-site. This course is rich enough in material for professionals yet presented in an easily comprehended format for the lay student. Classes this summer are scheduled August 1 - 15 at Our Farm in Woodside, California and at the Black Foot Native American Reservation in Montana, August 28 ? September 12 (see below). This fall, beautiful upstate New York will be the host site, October 18 ? November 1. Registration is limited, as are some scholarships. The full course fee for either course is $1,377 which includes all gourmet organic vegetarian meals, lodging/camping, good vibes and camaraderie. BLACK FOOT NATION RESERVATION TWO WEEK CERTIFICATION: A very rare opportunity! I.I.E.A. is honored to be selected to head this special class. Students will live on the one million acre Black Foot Nation reservation at the foot of Glacier National Park in Montana while learning side-by-side with Native American reservation residents. In addition to I.I.E.A.s founder, Dave Blume, who was certified by Permaculture originator, Bill Mollison -- and is himself a working Permaculture farmer -- students will learn from tribal elders as well as Earnest Callenbach (author of the famed Ecotopia), popular visionary Starhawk, Berkeleys sustainable living architect and straw bale construction expert Bob Theis, as well as certified Permaculturist Larry Korn, who translated Masanobu Fukuokas important work, One Straw Revolution. Aside from covering every facet of Permaculture, this course will additionally teach how to reduce the reservation residents high incidence of diabetes and prepare for the melting off of the glaciers which supply the reservation with water. For each paying student, a Native American reservation resident will be able to attend this important, lifesaving class at no charge. This very special event, to begin August 28, is sure to sell out fast, so please let us know about your interest as soon as possible! Registration is limited, as are some scholarships. The full course fee is $1,377 which includes all gourmet organic vegetarian meals, lodging/camping, good vibes and camaraderie. NEW THIS YEAR! PERMCULTURE FUNDAMENTALS: Due to a big demand from everyone from professionals to backyard gardeners who want to learn or extend their knowledge of Permaculture but dont have the time or the need to become certified , we are now presenting a 6 day jam-packed introduction at the gorgeous Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, September 19 - 24. Students will learn all the basics (but will not have the opportunity to create a group design as in the Certification class) and will be treated to the same high caliber learning experience as in the certification course. The full course fee is $885 and will include lodging as well as gourmet organic meals. BE A FARMER FOR A WEEK: Mixing learning, real farming work and a whole lot of fun, this is Gardening Summer Camp for Adults ? as well as the whole family. Under the sun and on the working I.I.E.A.s Our Farm site in Woodside, California, you will learn by doing ? under the expert guidance of Farmer Dave and his Dad, (both father and son are Ecological Biologists).The pair will walk you through planting, plant care for the growing crop, low cost greenhouse construction, terracing hillsides, harvesting, and post-harvesting handling. There is a large variety of produce grown at Our Farm, including some not found in your local markets. And since its hands-on experience, its much, much more than what youll get from just reading about great gardening. Camp under the stars, eat great organic food, learn a whole lot. Only 4 special sessions are planned June 12 ? 18, July 10 ? 16, August 17-23 and September 11 - 17, so sign up now. $477 for the week . INTRODUCTION TO PERMACULTURE ONE DAY CLASS: Curious? Need more understanding in a quick format? Welcome to our One Day School where you will get a very informed insight and overview of each of the topics covered extensively in our Certification class. Fast-paced, this day is not just lectures but will include an informative and enjoyable tour of Our Farm, the I.I.E.A. site in Woodside, California. Its a bargain at $107, including lunch! Call to sign up for dates throughout the summer: June 6, July 4, September 5. Y2K GARDENING CLASS: No need for hysteria, its just common sense. Since agriculture depends on 1000s of embedded computer chips (commercial irrigation systems, transportation, refrigeration and more) and since most grocery stores only stock about a weeks worth of fresh foods at any one time, any Y2K breakdowns will affect the food supply. In this workshop, you will learn special techniques for creating an extended growing season and how to plan and plant a supply of food that will tide you over -- even if your garden is only a few containers on the fire escape (did you know that a 5 gallon bucket can grow over 100 carrots?). Y2K gardening is something youll want to do every year -- even after the "bug" everyone is talking about passes. Offered only 4 times (June 5, June 26, July 3, July 24) so reserve space for yourself and friends now. $107 includes a fabulous lunch. MONTHLY OUR FARM TOURS: This four hour teaching tour is very indepth, showing techniques and benefits of Permaculture in use at Our Farm, our Community Supported Agriculture project we run in Woodside, Callifornia. Amongst the topics covered are how to control bugs without chemicals and growing crops on a steep hillside. The first Saturday of every month. A sliding scale donation of $5 - $25 is suggested. We will happily make arrangements for groups of 30 or more. ____________________***______________________ We are glad to answer your questions personally about any of our courses. Please call 650-365-2993 or fax 650-366-2241. Course fees can be sent directly to I.I.E.A., 834 West California Way, Woodside, Ca. 94062. Yes, we accept credit cards. Our email address is permaculture-institute@igc.org and web page is www.permaculture-institute.org I.I.E.A PRESIDENT DAVE BLUME IS HAPPY TO SPEAK AT YOUR EVENT OR ORGANIZATION AND IS ALSO AVAILABLE FOR MEDIA INTERVIEWS. PLEASE CALL DOREEN NAGLE AT 415/454-2521 TO ARRANGE. WHO WE ARE / WHAT WE TEACH I.I.E.A. is a 501(C)3 non-profit organization that teaches Permaculture and related topics. I.I.E.A.s mission is to "provide for the human community through research, education and implementation of socially just ecological conserving forms of agriculture as the basis of all sustainable societies." The I.I.E.A. also offers people who have been thinking about going into farming an opportunity to try it before making a fulltime commitment. Through Permaculture, students are shown how the world looks through from the point of view of ecology e.g. how natural systems interconnect and function well together. Permaculture addresses also social concerns such as globalization. Permaculture creates more jobs per acre than other forms of farming; it also keeps local currency in the community as well as producing a local source of food independently. Permacultures effects reach city dwellers by teaching how to grow the maximum fruits and vegetables in small yards as well as teach small nations to feed themselves while replenishing their devastated soil. As a permaculture concept, the I.I.E.A. also runs Our Farm, a Community Supported Agriculture Project (CSA) that minimizes the distance between the consumer and the food producer. The shareholder/consumer deals directly with the local farmer. In addition, CSAs provide convenient sites for teachers to bring students of all ages to learn about biology firsthand. Dave Blume, I.I.E.A President, has taught Permaculture, alternative building, ecological farming, alternative fuels and energy production to over 8500 people during the past 3 decades. An Ecological Biology and Biosystematics major at San Francisco State University, during the energy crisis of the 70s Blume started the American Homegrown Fuel Co., an educational organization producing alcohol fuel. He was asked to create a 10 part series based on his workshop for PBS. Blume was also hired by NASA to work on a solar self-sufficient energy/sewage treatment/desalinization plant in the Virgin Islands. He has taught alternative building techniques at Mother Earth News Eco Village and edible mushroom cultivation in the agricultural wasteland of the Nauhautl people of Mexico. A consultant for a wide variety of people including foreign governments, individual farmers and food processors, Blume has also designed student study centers on sensitive ecological sites. While serving on the Board of the Committee for Sustainable Agriculture, Blume also served as the Executive Director of the 1600-acre Hidden Villa Farm and Wilderness Perserve in Los Altos Hills; in one year he turned that Farms bank account, which was $250,000 in the red, to a million dollar balanced budget. In 1994, Dave founded the Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) farm, Our Farm in Woodside, California. Delegations from China, Cuba, Japan, Croatia, India, Korea, Canada, Lithuania and dozens of U.S. cities have visited Our Farm to study its model. He has been certified by and has taught with Bill Mollison, the originator of Permaculture. As President of the International Institue for Ecological Agriculture, Blume has personally trained hundreds of students in Permaculture. Earnest Callenbach is the well-known author of the popular Ecotopia and Ecotopia Emerging. Ecotopia embodies a Permaculture mindset. Callenbach lectures fulltime all over the world. Larry Korn: Also trained and Certified by Bill Mollison in 1983, Korn is the well-known translator of Masanobu Fukuokas work, One Straw Revolution. When not traveling with Fukuoka personally, Korn works as a Permaculture Designer and Landscaper. Bob Theis is one of a handful of truly experienced straw bale designers in the world. A Berkeley architect who focuses on sustainable planning, design and building, he has pioneered new developments in straw bale construction under special conditions, including the terrain and climate of Mongolia. Theis has also been trained and Certified by Mollison. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 09:14:51 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21969 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:14:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20820 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA19913; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:01:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19797 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:00:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.129.95 (sa-165-227-129-95.cruzio.com [165.227.129.95]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id FAA18868; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37560D5E.CB6@mariquita.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 05:06:38 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: CSA list Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 Here is an article my husband (the CSA farmer and occasional author around this farm) wrote for our newsletter in early May. Yes, we always wash our produce! Yesterday only the leeks weren't in a bag. We find we lose customers if their stuff gets to them wilted. If any of you has an alternative to the plastic, please let me know! thanks. Julia Post Production Handling by Andy We've had questions about our use of plastic bags. I don't enjoy buying the bags any more than you enjoy throwing them away. I'm not committed to the plastic bags per se but I do want to keep the produce fresh for you. My fear is that for want of a 2 cent bag an 80 cent bunch of kale will arrive wilted. Then instead of being applauded for saving a bag I'll be criticized for providing poor produce. I've had the opportunity to watch the organic food business grow tremendously since the mid-seventies. At that time those of us who grew organically were commonly thought of in the produce industry as being a bunch of dope addled hippies, and our piles of wilted greens and thrashed looking lettuce in the natural food stores for high prices did little to improve our image. I see now that one of the most pressing problems in the industry early on was the manner that the produce was handled after it left the fields. The plants were grown with love and harvested with care but as an industry we were outside the loop. We didn't have access to good refrigeration like the big Salinas growers did. The individual organic farms were too small to have good hydro-coolers or on-site refrigerators. The organic food stores were too small to have refrigerated trucking. At times our interest in recycling took priority over our business sense. We shipped product to markets in used boxes that couldn't make the trip. When the box that carried the organic produce failed, the whole organic program failed because the produce arrived mangled and hot. What good is planting with a good heart, using no chemicals and all the rest if no one will buy the vegetables? Now the organic business is bigger. We've begun to learn anything we can from the bigger producers. And some of the companies in the produce business entered the organic arena. Organic farmers are now well-versed in the "cold chain." We know how we have to meet the right temperature and humidity requirements for our crops to survive the post harvest handling. Julia and I put in a small walk-in cooler at our house. We move the produce from field to wash tank promptly. We bag the product up inside the cooler at 34 degrees so that it stays as cold as it can and we don't load the truck until we are ready to go. I'm willing to try and do anything to keep your produce in good shape until you can use it. If anyone has any ideas about how we can reduce the costs of packaging I'm all ears; but we have to maintain the good quality of the produce. The organic industry is more mature now than it was. As an industry we're as sober as they come. There's no room for farmers who want to farm with a hoe in one hand and a joint in the other. It's big business now and I can begin to see the day when organic practices will be the convention. That's the good news for the environment and for the customer, but it's not necessarily good news for the small farmer. Now, instead of competing against large conventional growers for the market share, we smaller farms must compete against large organic growers as well. The CSA program makes an end run around the large distribution networks that do not serve local small farmers or consumers well. In changing our focus to deliver more directly to the consumer we cannot forget the lessons learned about the value of good packaging, the need to appropriately pre-cool the produce, or the need to minimize temperature changes. The bags work to maintain humidity so the produce doesn't wilt. In a store they put a spray system in place and constantly spray or hose the food off to maintain humidity, a practice which accelerates rot and breakdown. We try to combine items in a bag when we can to conserve bags if we can do so without damaging the produce. We can't reuse the bags we send you without running afoul of the health department. We hope you can reuse them. -- --------------------------------------------------- Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables (831)761-3226 e-mail: csa@mariquita.com web site: http://www.mariquita.com P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 --------------------------------------------------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 09:25:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22158 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23053 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20651; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:13:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20609 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 08:13:32 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com (582) by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dGXSa02105 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:12:34 EDT Subject: washing produce To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 335 How do you feel about this yourself and what do you know about how other CSAs handle washing produce for shares? We generally don't wash produce, except root crops that are especially muddy, etc. We do, however, plunge vegetables like lettuce and greens into ice cold water after harvest, when field heat is an issue. On days like today, for example, where it's only 9:00 am and already feels like it's about 90 degrees outside, no matter how early in the morning you harvest lettuce it would benefit from a quick water cool-down. We make sure to let our members know that produce has just been rinsed and not actually washed. Heidi Lewis Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 12:22:07 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26352 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00138 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04195; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:10:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from adams.berk.net (IDENT:root@adams.berk.net [205.230.140.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03904 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:07:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (max-2-gb-117.bcn.net [208.238.86.117]) by adams.berk.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07656; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:08:04 -0400 From: "David I." To: "Allan Balliett" Cc: Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:10:12 -0400 Message-ID: <01beaddb$8f410a40$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 For the first six years of this C.S.A. ['87-'92] produce was not washed and they got by on the initial enthusiasm for the project. As the membership changed and the project moved out of the pioneer phase, expectations changed. When I took over in '93 there was no overt demand for washing but I determined that we had to get field heat out of the produce as fast as possible so we started washing. There was in immediate improvement in the distribution room atmosphere among sharers as well as a lengthening of the shelf life of our product which in turn results in less being thrown away which again increases sharer satisfaction and therefore retention. This was a major factor in our increasing retention from 65 - 70% to 85-90%. We do not wash winter stores after thanksgiving, they keep better that way. Like anything, to be successful the wash operation should be set up well. Get the food bank harvest video from C.S.A. Works. At this point it seems to me penny-wise and pound foolish not to wash, it makes for a cleaner distribution room also. Three of us harvest and wash for 100 on Tuesday and 85 on Friday and if we hustle two can do it. Yours David Inglis Mahaiwe Harvest C.S.A. Housatonic MA. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 13:24:57 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27735 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15923 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09311; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:12:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09208 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:11:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-48-83.stk.jps.net [209.142.48.83]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15596 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37564B92.ED4A0A8B@jps.net> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:32:04 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Bags and Boxes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 Lately I have been doing way with both bags and Boxes for my CSA members leafy greens and root crops. Members pick up at the local farmers market. Produce goes from the wash table direct to the bed of the flatbed truck, onto drop cloths which I then wrap around the piles of food and hose down. The produce stays cool and humid, even in our valley summer heat. I also drape damp cloth over the boxed fruits or the individual boxes I deliver, to keep them cool. Colorful prints keep the table or bed of my truck attractive while hiding and protecting the vegetables. I still provide bags for members to stash their share in, but am thinking about suggesting the use of damp canvas bags. The cloths are easily washed. Anyone else doing anything like this? -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 13:25:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27757 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16049 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09418; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:13:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09237 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:11:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from speedy.excite.com ([199.172.152.78]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990603171110.TUTJ2227.kuku@speedy.excite.com>; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:11:10 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, oeffa@iwaynet.net, YSZX29E@prodigy.com Subject: Fwd: USDA SOLICITING INPUT FOR WTO Message-Id: <928429868.10860.66@excite.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:11:08 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.179 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 338 > From: T4shea@aol.com > To: Ban-GEF@lists.greenbuilder.com, katmando@inlink.com, biotech-L@cornell.edu, > gflora@iatp.org, GreensSTL@aol.com, gpusa@igc.org, > ltaylor@newmanbronson.com, jponzi@info.csd.org, pocket@stlnet.com, > MSPLATZ@prodigy.net > Subject: USDA SOLICITING INPUT FOR WTO > Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 11:57:45 EDT > Message-ID: > > List of public sessions is at bottom. Starting June 4th!! > This is a great opportunity for organic activists to attend and > express their concerns about GE issues, food irradiation, labeling > issues, rBGH and the national organic standards. > Debbie > > USDA SOLICITING LOCAL INPUT FOR WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION NEGOTIATIONS > Both USDA and the Office of the US Trade Representative (USTR) will hold = > 11=20 > public listening sessions in July (including sessions in Vermont and=20 > Delaware) to solicit public comments, outline general approaches, and sha= > re=20 > ideas about critical trade issues, such as market access, export subsidie= > s,=20 > tariff reductions, internal support, state trading enterprises, labor iss= > ues,=20 > natural resources issues, environmental issues, and trade concerns relati= > ng=20 > to products using new technologies. The advice of farmers, ranchers,=20 > processors, exporters, and consumers will be critical in establishing US=20 > agricultural trade objectives and goals for the upcoming WTO Ministers'=20 > Meeting in Seattle in late November, and for the ensuing WTO trade=20 > negotiations. > =20 > In order to appear before the USDA-USTR panel, interested persons must=20 > register with their State Departments of Agriculture for the regional=20 > sessions. Written questions and comments will be accepted in writing fro= > m=20 > those individuals who cannot attend the listening sessions. Written=20 > comments must be received no later than July 26 and can be e-mailed to:=20 > agsec@usda.gov,or mailed to: US Department of Agriculture, Trade Policy=20 > Comments, Mail Stop 9920, 1400 Independence Avenue, SW, Washington, DC=20 > 20250-9920. > =20 > For more information, contact Marlene Phillips, Foreign Agricultural Serv= > ice=20 > Outreach Office, at (phone) 202-720-0103 or phillipsms@fas.usda.gov. > Also, check the Foreign Agricultural Service (FAS) Home Page at:=20 > http://www.fas.usda.gov. Look under "Upcoming Events". > http://www.fas.usda.gov/itp/wto/sessions.html > > Schedule of Sessions: > > Winter Haven,Florida* > > *June 4 > Nora Mayo=20 > HallWill Bussey > Florida Dept. of=20 > Food and Agriculture > busseyw@doacs.state.fl.us=A0 (850) 488-3022 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > St. Paul, Minnesota* > North Dakota > South Dakota > Wisconsin > > June 7 > Holiday Inn, > St. Paul East > MinnesotaDarla Riley > Minnesota Dept.=20 > of=A0 Agriculture(651) 282-5140 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Memphis,Tennessee* > Georgia > Alabama > Kentucky > N. Carolina > S. Carolina > Mississippi > Arkansas > > June 16 > Agri-Center > InternationalEric Maupin > Tennessee Dept. of Agriculture(615) 837-5160 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Indianapolis, Indiana* > Ohio > Michigan > Illinois > W. Virginia > > June 24 > Indiana State Fair=20 > Julia Wickard > Indianapolis Dept.=20 > of Agriculture(317) 232-8778 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sacramento, California* > Hawaii > Arizona > > June 29 > California Dept. of Food and Agriculture Auditorium > Marjorie Beazer > CA. Dept. of Food and Agriculture > mbeazer@cdfa.ca.gov (916)=A0 654-0462 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Pullman, Washington* > Idaho > Oregon > Alaska > > June 30TBDLisa Schumaker > Washington Dept.=20 > of Agriculture(360)=A0 902-1926 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Austin, Texas* > Oklahoma > Louisiana > New Mexico > > July 8 > The Texas State Capitol > Dawn DeBerry > Texas Dept. of Agriculture(512) 475-1615 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Des Moin es, Iowa* > Missouri > Kansas > Nebraska > > July 12 > TBDJoan Kiernan > Iowa Dept. of Agriculture(515) 281-5323 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Burlington, Vermont* > New York > Maine=20 > Massachusetts > New Hampshire > Connecticut > Rhode Island > > July 19 > TBD > Theresa Doyle(802) 828-2430 > 7/19 BURLINGTON, VT. > =20 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Bozeman, Montana* > Wyoming > Colorado > Nevada > Utah > > July 23 > TBD > Montana Dept. of Agriculture(406) 444-3144 > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Newark, Delaware* > New Jersey > Pennsylvania > Virginia > Maryland > > July 23 > University of Delaware > Brenda Minor > Delaware Dept. of Agriculture > (302)=A0 739-4811 > > * Indicates the states where the regional sessions will be held. > Participants wishing to speak before the WTO Panel should register with t= > he > state department of agriculture indicated with a *. > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 13:28:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27845 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16782 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09585; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:15:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09532 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:15:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906031715.MAA09532@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 447763519; Thu, 03 Jun 1999 17:15:22 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "David I." , "Allan Balliett" Cc: Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:08:07 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 We rinse particularly muddy stuff off but we avoid thorough washing for a couple of reasons: 1. To wash it so clean that it is ready to eat seems risky. Dunking, which is the fastest way to wash, will expose one to possible cross-contamination (by sand and/or microbes) of produce dunked later. Spraying to full clean is really time-consuming. By leaving things a little dirty, our members are motivated to rinse it well at home. If it was "almost clean" they would be less likely to do so. 2. There is evidence to suggest that dunking hot produce in cold water can actually drive microbes, if present, into the cells of the veggies. Spraying to chill is a safer option. We have found that our members are not troubled by the need to clean their produce. Some have mentioned it, but noone, to our knowledge anyway, has quit or not returned the next year over it. Many (when the subject has come up), including restaurant shareholders, have indicated that it is fine to clean their own veggies. "That's our job" several folks have said. We tell them that they are washing off sand and no chemicals. This seems to please them. Some leafy stuff, does get wilty on a hot day. Our experience, and that of our members who have commented, is that the freshness allows the greens (the most likely thing to look wilted) to perk back up very soon after refrigeration. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 14:47:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29685 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09348 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15270; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:34:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15138 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:32:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 2279 invoked from network); 3 Jun 1999 18:32:55 -0000 Received: from a48-01-44.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.44) (216.26.11.44) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 18:32:55 -0000 Message-ID: <3756CA89.B48@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:33:48 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Andersen CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: So what is a spader? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 340 Sue Andersen wrote: "How's a spader work? What's it look like? Will it turn in a cover crop and incorporate compost? Does it leave you with a good enough seedbed for fine seeded crops? What HP does it require? Where do you get 'em?" A spader looks a lot like a rotary tiller, but instead of rotating "tines" it has "spades" on a double cam mounting. The spades look like small shovel blades - shaped like the Heinz food company shield in their logo - and move in a mostly up and dowm motion, with a little tilt at the bottom of the stroke. The effect is like pushing a shovel (hence the name shove-l) straight into the ground, rocking the handle back and forth, then drawing the shovel back out. All without turning the soil over. The action opens up compacted soil and allows air and water in, while doing minimal damage to soil organisms and microlife. It won't "turn in" a cover crop, but it will chop it up some and push some of it down into the soil, where it will break down better then sitting on top. It will incorporate compost, as loose material on top of the soil falls into the openings made as the spader travels along the soil bed. It will make a pretty fine seedbed if you make 2 or 3 passes, but I caution you to find better ways to plant fine seeded crops, as pulverizing the soil into a fine seedbed is inherently very destructive to the soil. We work the bed to baseball-to-golfball sized pieces (there is, of course a lot of smaller stuff mixed in), then plant into the soil. For fine seeds we make a grove 2-3 inches wide, fill it with a soil mix (much like our starting mix), mix the seeds with sand and spread that into a groove in the soil mix in the trench. The horsepower required depends on the spader (size) and your soil (how hard). Ours is 3 feet wide, with 4 shovels about 6 inches wide at the top and 4 inches wide at the bottom. It requires 20-22 HP. You can get them as walk-behind (probably 8-15 HP) or standard 3-point implements. We got ours from Farrari Tractor CIE in California. This is a one-man operation, I think. We met him first at the Ecological Farming Conference in California years ago. I think he still goes there every year. We've seen him at other ag events, too. He is very active on the west coast. I imagine he would work with anybody in the country. He was very accomodating with us and we recommend him highly. Good growing, Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 14:59:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00008 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13069 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16504; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:47:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from debian (star04342.galstar.com [208.15.43.42]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16386 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:46:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from meta (really [192.168.100.2]) by galstar.com via in.smtpd with smtp id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:36:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:36:13 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: meta@mail.insnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Meta Bright Star Subject: Organic food (session) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 341 Thank you for providing this information. Below is a copy of the letter I sent today in response. I am making it available to the list for people to cut and paste, or consider, as I know many are pressed for time during this busy season. I wrote:> >Please include this letter as my statement concerning irradiated foods, labelling issues, etc. for the upcoming public input seesions on food and farming practices as USDA SOLICITING LOCAL INPUT FOR WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION NEGOTIATIONS, Thank you. > >Dear Agricultural Personnel: > I am fifity years old...and I have tried several good health food diets over the years, with the last >government recommended daily allowance pyramid being the best for overall good health practice. >Over these years, there were many, many times that I thought I was doing the right things in regards to >eating well. Some of these things really only made me feel less bad...like the higher nutrient foods such as avacados, bananas, fish and whole multigrain breads. > >A few months ago, I began to order food from a biodynamic farm...over one thousand miles from my home. >The shipping costs were very high. But, the food was truly worth it by far. I am actually feeling healthier most days than I ever have in my life. And as I said, I often believed that the different approaches to nutrition were very good, so the placebo effect, I think, is not in effect here when I say that food grown in great soil, without pesticides, without irradiation is the best of all worlds. > >Whenever and wherever this approach can be made, I heartily recommend it. I understand that this is not always a practical approach...but well worth any extra effort, or expense to the consumer. I think more people will be less likely to over eat, having not to search in vain for nutrients needed to thrive, as an added bonus. > >I am not wealthy, but I will spend on good wholesome food. > >Thank you again, > >Meta Bright Star >Tulsa, Oklahoma > See a slide show at: www.galstar.com/~spencer/slides/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 15:00:19 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00022 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13279 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16418; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:47:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16353 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:46:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 7416 invoked from network); 3 Jun 1999 18:46:35 -0000 Received: from a48-01-44.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.44) (216.26.11.44) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 3 Jun 1999 18:46:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3756CDBC.59F@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:47:29 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BRateaver@aol.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Fastest way to adjust PH References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 342 Bargyla Rateaver wrote: "Again, it is necessary to UNDERSTAND about soil. Just getting isolated answers does not help much, esp if you intend to stay with growing in soil. I felt a little guilty about not saying more, when there is so much info in this house, so I will just point out a few things, and hope against hope that someone will believe. I looked up the index in Primer, under lime, and found these headings: effect on soil pH deeper if compostadded, pg 52 has 2 roles in soil pf 37 lasts in soil 3-5 yrs, pg 38 may be needed even in alkaline soil, pf37 may harm tropical legumes 37 must be well mixed into soil 38 organic matter can substitute for it 37 same as chalk 36 slaked, hyudrated 37 too mcuh causes leaf yellowing, iron deficiency, 36 Under heading of Limestone: dolomitic contains also magnesium carbonate 36 for dusting potato cut surface for watercress soil 235 ground 6, 36, 280 in compost pile 51 in mulch to repel rodents 102 mistakenly added to adjust acidity 14 too much destroys fungi 14 Really and truly, you should read Arden Andersen's book: Life and Energ in Agriculture. You could read it in one evening--you probably won't sleep all night thinking about what you have read. It's just a small book. Then there is his other ag book, Science in Agriculture.--the Professional's Edge. There is SO much interesting stuff to know--it is just a dirty shame people are stuck with the rot the farm advisor's give out. There is a whole world of good info to use, and esp if you are in the farming life, it is so valuable to have that knowledge in your head. After so many many years of trying, I get so discouraged. Here I am soon to die, being already into the 80's, and it seems to me I have not made even a dent." For those of you who don't know Bargyla Rateaver, who I first met at an Ecological Farming Conference in California and have had the opportunity to talk with a few times since, she is co-author of "The Orgnaic Method Primer" - one of my most valuable reference books. I highly recommend it. Some other books I would suggest are well worth reading: "Soil Fertility - renewal and preservation" by Ehrenfreid Pfeiffer, "The Albrecht Papers, Volume II - Soil Fertility and Animal Health" by William Albrecht, edited by Charles Walters, Jr., and "Weeds - control without poisons" by Charles Walters, Jr. I believe all four are available through Acres, USA in Metarie, Louisiana. Good growing, Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 21:39:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09252 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13458 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA13549; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:27:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web604.mail.yahoo.com (web604.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.168]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA13468 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:27:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990604012613.3423.rocketmail@web604.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.211.20.74] by web604.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 03 Jun 1999 18:26:13 PDT Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:26:13 -0700 (PDT) From: jared volpe Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution To: CSA list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 343 Can we start a discussion about Health Department issues and whether or not certification (organic/biodynamic) is an issue at your farms? --- Julia Wiley wrote: > The bags work to maintain humidity so the produce > doesn't wilt. In a > store they put a spray system in place and > constantly spray or hose the > food off to maintain humidity, a practice which > accelerates rot and > breakdown. We try to combine items in a bag when we > can to conserve bags > if we can do so without damaging the produce. We > can't reuse the bags we > send you without running afoul of the health > department. We hope you can > reuse them. > -- > --------------------------------------------------- > > Mariquita Farm > Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty > vegetables > (831)761-3226 > e-mail: csa@mariquita.com > web site: http://www.mariquita.com > P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 > > --------------------------------------------------- > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 3 22:46:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10104 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26630 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA17921; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:36:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17833 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:35:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.94.52.190] (b4-52-116.whidbey.com [204.94.52.116]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06892 for ; Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 19:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: plastic bags Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 344 In addition to CSA and Farmer's Market, we do a small salad green business locally. I found a supplier of cellophane bags and use them for anything I bag now. They're biodegradable, keep produce well, and are reuseable for a few times. My supplier is Pak-Sel in Portland, OR. Their # is 1-800-635-2247, FAX (503) 771-9413. Cellophane is more expensive than plastic; but that's a song we all know. For CSA produce, we rinse to cool and then put wet veggies in baskets. They stay fresh the few hours before pick-up unless it's a really hot day (when its hot, I put them upright in a tub with an inch of water at the bottom until members arrive). If a member is expecting to be late, I'll drape a clean, wet burlap bag over their share basket. Wet fabric is effective. Molly From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 4 16:19:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25560 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09965 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21437; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:08:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vm4-ext.prodigy.net (vm4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.137]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21342 for ; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:07:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB111-11.splitrock.net [209.156.67.172]) by vm4-ext.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA41680; Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:07:06 -0400 Message-Id: <199906042007.QAA41680@vm4-ext.prodigy.net> Reply-To: From: "Vincent J McKelvey" To: , "Petersons Family" Subject: Re: plastic bags Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:05:38 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 thanks for the info, molly, but a little bit more please on cellophane. what IS it made from? thanks. noreen spring run farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 5 17:35:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10694 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00221 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 17:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26245; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:25:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26173 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:24:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool045-max10.ds8-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.3.145]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10202; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 14:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990605083819.00840100@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 08:38:19 -0700 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: Hemp Production Begins in Some States, Still Barred in Kentucky In-Reply-To: <199906050700.CAA25621@firefly.prairienet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 By Janet Patton, Lexington Herald-Leader, Ky. Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News Jun. 5--Bluegrass farmers' dream of growing U.S. hemp finally might be coming true, but not in Kentucky. North Dakota, spurred by the first-year profits of neighboring Canadian farmers, legalized industrial hemp production in April. But Hawaii will probably get it into the ground faster. On July 7, Gov. Benjamin Cayetano will sign a bill authorizing 10 acres of variety trials. "We're hoping to put seed in the ground in September," said Hawaii state Rep. Cynthia Thielen. "I think it's quite embarrassing that Kentucky's so far behind in this. ... Kentucky can watch our dust." At least 12 other states, including Tennessee, have passed or are considering pro-hemp legislation. Ironically, this has happened in no small part because of the work of Kentucky hemp activists, whose efforts to get legal permission to grow the crop have made little progress in their own state. "I cannot understand why a state with your history in hemp won't consider this crop," Thielen said. Hawaii is looking to replace idle sugar plantations with hemp fields that could eventually fuel an ethanol plant. Through some high-profile legal wrangling, sometimes involving actor Woody Harrelson, and constant Internet efforts, the Kentucky Hemp Growers Cooperative Association has begun to make a name for itself nationally and at home. It is a measure of the group's efforts that yesterday the Woodford County Chamber of Commerce, with Mayor Fred Siegelman's blessing, sponsored the ribbon-cutting at the new Kentucky Hemp Museum in Versailles. Lexington Mayor Pam Miller will give the opening address at the co-op's annual meeting this month in Fayette County, said Joe Hickey, the association's executive director. Hickey and association President Andy Graves have testified before state legislatures in Oregon and Missouri. Winchester farmer Gale Glenn sits on the North American Industrial Hemp Council board. Glenn has been very vocal about advocates of legalizing marijuana who try to hitch onto hemp's bandwagon. "They are our worst enemies," Glenn has been quoted as saying. "If marijuana didn't exist, hemp would be growing here on hundreds of thousands of acres." Hemp advocates strive to put as much distance between hemp and marijuana as possible. "There's not a tie-dyed T-shirt in the group," said James Woolsey, the former CIA director who now lobbies for the hemp council. He blames the lack of action in most states on "inertia and public relations." That is what the Kentucky activists have worked hard to change, and they have found many receptive to their message. But at home, the hemp movement has been slow to grow. "I don't know of any legislator yet who's said they were willing to put forth a bill," said Rep. Joe Barrows, D-Versailles. "I think it would be appropriate for us to do a little research ourselves, a controlled experimental effort." Of Thielen's criticism, he said, "We're not any different than most places. The first reaction is the understandable confusion between hemp and marijuana. I don't think we've gotten entirely past that point. There's still a real reluctance in law enforcement." The problem for all states has always been the Drug Enforcement Administration. The DEA reading of the law is that hemp is marijuana and therefore is illegal to grow because it contains THC, the drug that produces marijuana's high, said Bud Scholtz, hemp council chairman. But a recent letter to Thielen from a DEA administrator appears to soften that position. "The DEA is currently reviewing the security regulations I as part of the review, DEA will consider setting the level of THC content for I hemp that may be grown for industrial purposes," wrote Gregory Williams, chief of DEA operations on April 23. "This review is based on the premise that public and commercial interest may be better served if the cultivation of Cannabis sativa L., hemp is authorized by the appropriate Federal and State entities." Discussions, which have included DEA drug czar Barry McCaffrey, are apparently at a delicate stage. "We're making good progress," Scholtz said. "We had talks with General McCaffrey recently, but I don't want to make a comment on that right now." The review is still in progress, DEA spokeswoman Rogene Wade confirmed yesterday. "The DEA is reviewing the security issue that would be associated with the manufacture (of hemp)," she said. The agency is looking at the types of data that would be required for licensure, she said. It is not actually illegal to grow hemp (or marijuana, for that matter); you just need a federal license to do it. But, say hemp activists, you can't get a license. That's what states ready to grow hemp hope will change soon. The fight in other states has not been easy. In Hawaii, Thielen said, the police lobby tried to kill the bill. "Practically all of the legislators were not aware of the distinction between the plants," she said. In Oregon, pro-hemp legislation was killed out of "ignorance," said state Rep. Floyd Prozanski. In Oregon, hemp could become a renewable source of paper pulp. "In some states, they know it's rope, not dope. Other states are pigeonholed. The DEA's going to have to come around." There are further signs that may be happening. The DEA stopped arguing that hemp cannot be distinguished in the field from marijuana. "That's been pretty much shot down," Scholtz said. It's grown in 33 countries, including Canada, largely without law enforcement difficulties, he said. Manufacturers have found plenty of uses for hemp -- the Kentucky Hemp Museum displays dozens of modern products ranging from feed to clothing to fiberboard to lip balm. "You can eat it, wear it and live in it," said Jake Graves, the Fayette County farmer and chairman of the Kentucky Hemp Museum board. Whether there would be any money in it is something economists do not agree on. One University of Kentucky study found there would be little market for a Kentucky-grown product in a market flooded with cheap, foreign hemp. But another UK study last year estimated Kentucky farmers could make up to $600 an acre. Canadian farmers are clearing $300 an acre in profit, said North Dakota Rep. David Monson, who sponsored that state's bill. Monson pointed out that until the federal government lets them, North Dakota farmers can't grow hemp either. "I'd say there's a fairly decent possibility that it could happen next year," Monson said. "North Dakota is behind that all the way from the grass-roots to our governor." Now, he said, other states need to get involved. "If every state would do it, the federal government couldn't ignore it," he said. "Every time a state introduces legislation, it goes a step farther." WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Is there a difference between hemp and marijuana or is it all cannabis sativa? "Yes, there's a difference," said Scott Smith, UK agriculture associate dean, "in terms of the active ingredient, THC. "Botanically, they're the same species of plant ... but very different varieties." Industrial hemp contains less than 1 percent THC, while marijuana varieties typically have 5 to 20 percent. There are also differences in how hemp is grown and harvested. So, no matter how much you eat or smoke hemp products, you can't get high. ----- Visit Kentucky Connect, the World Wide Web site of the Lexington (Ky.) Herald-Leader, at http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader (c) 1999, Lexington (Ky.) Herald-Leader. Distributed by Knight Ridder/Tribune Business News. For more information, visit the NewsHound website at http://www.newshound.com or send an email to speak@hound.com. FMChambers@csupomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus and local groups encouraging Cal Poly to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit and post at: http://www.regen.org (BWA, SAFER, Regen site that kick's butt!) http://www.csupomona.edu/~vltenbrink/index.html (Victoria's Black Walnut Page) http://www.rokcircle.com/bbs/ (The Wilderness Forum ***ON HIATUS***) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 5 23:27:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13891 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17265 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA09361; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:17:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09303 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:16:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fox.gamewood.net (0@fox.gamewood.net [206.229.248.28]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00649 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:14:50 -0400 Received: from pavilion (pts0301.gamewood.net [206.229.249.64]) by fox.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16323 for ; Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:14:49 -0400 Message-ID: <006501beafe4$93354a20$40f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: new member of CSA list Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 23:19:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0062_01BEAFA9.E5D18540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 347 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01BEAFA9.E5D18540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just thought I'd let the list know that I eagerly await the good info = that has been passed on through this list. . Right now I have about 2000 = sq. feet of 45ac.(the rest in woods and weeds) planted in some veggies = and covercrops. It may not sound like much but my full time job is as a = truck driver, and I'm only home 2 days each week(thank heavens for water = timers!). Next spring I'm going to drive less and garden more. I plan to = start growing produce full-time in 2000. and hope to start a CSA. I've been absorbing all the info. I can find, so I appreciate this list. = Anybody need any horror stories regarding cross-country transport of = produce, I got 'em! Amy K. Johnson Long Island VA akjedj@gamewood.net ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01BEAFA9.E5D18540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Just thought I'd let the list know that I eagerly = await the=20 good info that has been passed on through this list. . Right now I have = about=20 2000 sq. feet of 45ac.(the rest in woods and weeds) planted in some = veggies and=20 covercrops. It may not sound like much but my full time job is as a = truck=20 driver, and I'm only home 2 days each week(thank heavens for water = timers!).=20 Next spring I'm going to drive less and garden more. I plan to start = growing=20 produce full-time in 2000. and hope to start a CSA.
     
    I've been absorbing all the info. I can find, so I = appreciate=20 this list. Anybody need any horror stories regarding cross-country = transport of=20 produce, I got 'em!
     
    Amy K. Johnson
    Long Island VA
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    <= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01BEAFA9.E5D18540-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 6 15:57:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21125 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25137 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 15:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11483; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 14:46:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA11419 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 14:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 11787 invoked from network); 6 Jun 1999 19:46:21 -0000 Received: from a48-02-14.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.78) (216.26.11.78) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 6 Jun 1999 19:46:21 -0000 Message-ID: <375AD046.7B2A@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 12:47:20 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: CSA list Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 348 On washing/cooling produce, Having read a number of replies, I say: "Yes!" Cooling produce SOON after harvet is essential. As a teacher of mine was fond of saying,"The best way to deal with a problem is: don't get it." We deliver three days a week to 75 households. Greens/leafy veggies are harvested the day of delivery and placed, along with the rest of the produce which was harvested the day before and stored in a walk-in cooler) in a plastic tub with a snap-on lid. The deliveries are made in a van with front and rear air conditioning, so the produce is kept cool unitl delivery to our Harvest Shareholders' doors. You would enjoy the looks we get when we step out of the van on a 90 degree day, wearing a coat, to deliver a chilled box of fresh produce. We do almost no rinsing, occasionally we submerge lettuce for a few minutes to drive the small slugs out of the heads. As I once heard Trauger Groh say something like "We grow and we harvest. We trim dead leaves. After that it is processing. I'm not a processor, I'm a grower." Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 6 23:34:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27112 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA12977 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA01465; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01380 for ; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 22:22:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA12326; Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:22:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:22:10 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Julia Wiley cc: Allan Balliett , CSA list Subject: Re: CSA Quesion: Washing for Distribution In-Reply-To: <37560D5E.CB6@mariquita.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 Thanks for sending the article on post harvest handling. I think plastic is a decent option and when customers want to recycle the bags to me I have to encourage them to reuse the bags in the context of their own family economy...I cannot use used bags for health dept. reasons, and I think when explained it makes sufficient sense to customers and subscribers. I used to have a subscriber who wrote her name on her bags so that I could re-use them for HER salad mix, etc., and I had to explain that so much coordination and detail was too much for my sole self! Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 7 17:25:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15929 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 17:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11257 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 17:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27294; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:13:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from c004.sfo.cp.net (c004-h006.c004.sfo.cp.net [209.228.14.77]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27076 for ; Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906072110.QAA27076@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (cpmta 24958 invoked from network); 7 Jun 1999 14:10:40 -0700 Received: from 216-32-33-39.irv0.flashcom.net (HELO ?216.32.33.39?) (216.32.33.39) by smtp.flashcom.net with SMTP; 7 Jun 1999 14:10:40 -0700 X-Sent: 7 Jun 1999 21:10:40 GMT X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 14:14:33 -0700 Subject: Lease form From: "Andrew Bernstein" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 350 Hello. Some friends and I are avid consumers of raw milk, a staple in most countries around the world, but illegal to sell in most U.S. states. To get around this, we are looking into signing a lease agreement with the cow owners, so that we would be leasing the cows. The dairy, in effect, would then belong to us, and the money we pay is going for the service of milking, not the milk itself. It's sort of a mini-CSA, specializing in milk. Does anyone on this list have experience with such lease agreements? We are looking for some sort of template we could base it on. Thanks for your help. Andy Bernstein From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 9 18:00:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05068 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20906 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13861; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:48:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13741 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:46:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01202; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:46:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: Kevin Smyth cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: drip irrigation In-Reply-To: <199905092347.TAA27845@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 351 On Sun, 9 May 1999, Kevin Smyth wrote: > friends - Just turned on the water to our newly installed drip system in > our 3 acre vegetable patch. I have it divided by valves into three zones. > I'd like to be able to water even smaller areas within each zone, but I > already have the tee-tape down and hooked up, so my question is this: > anyone out there know how to "shut off" the individual tee tape lines? > Looks to me like I could just crimp the lines somehow, but I fear I may > damage the lines. Anybody? As you can see I have not been reading my email lately :-) I am not sure I understand your set-up, but here's what I do..... Every bed has it's own run of t-tape (two strands per bed) which has it's own shut off valve, so *if* I succeed in planning so that like watering needs get planted in the same bed...I can simply shut off that run when I'm ready. That is, even though I amy have five beds hooked together to be watered together, I can turn off any one or all of them when I am ready to...and keep watering the rest.... If I don't plan well, and sometimes I don't, e.g., last year some water needing aquilegia was behind a bunch of summer dormant bulbs (tritelias etc.) in the same bed then I either cut and piece the irrigation so a bit of non-slitted stuff is running from the header to the point where I want to water and then I attach the drip...or if the area is small enough I had water (yuk) while swearing I won't make that mistake again :-) And, slowly but surely I am getting to be a better planner...though thsi year I am on a wonderful hiatus and not worrying about this sort of logistical problem at all :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 9 18:13:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05257 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25882 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15248; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:03:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13937 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:49:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01299; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: Intergalactic Garage cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: drip irrigation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 352 If you live in an ag area than well/pump folks will carry the stuff. If you live in an urban area you can usually find irrigation wholesalers who are geared to the turf/"landscaper" crowd who will sell to you as long as you don't ask too many questions...Some even don't mind the neophyte questions :-) Peaceful Valley Farm Supply carries the basics for t-tape and is reasonably priced though shipping ain't cheap... :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 9 18:33:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05815 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01823 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16702; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:22:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16635 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 17:22:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02002; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:22:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: Jeff Herr cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Fastest way to adjust PH In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990602071956.00f863b4@mail.thestreet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, Jeff Herr wrote: > Hello all. > > We are working a new piece of land here and have found that, despite a >good lime application two months ago, we are still acidic. We are in >western Washington State. Still cool and regular rain. > > With crops in the ground, how long will it take to adjust the soil PH with >some form of top dressing? > > In other words, how long does it take for the balance to begin shifting? > And what form of buffering amendment is fastest acting, organic, and not > detrimental to the short-term or long-term health of the soil and its > inhabitants? Hello, I'll give you some of my opinionated personal thoughts on the issue... I live in Portland, Oregon and so I know what kinda clime you're talking :-) I think this topic of pH is very interesting and something we humans really know less about than we think we do. I think pH, how pH is affected, how it combines with other soil factors to effect plant health is so exceedinly complex (so many dependent variables one might say :-) that it just boggles the mind. Here are some things that help me get a grip: a) I've heard it said that after adding lime you may not see its full effects until onwards of 6 months...Remembering the caveat of so many variables affecting pH and affecting how fast it changes, i'd say that six months is a good, safe, conservative estimate although we're talking a mighty huge ball field :-) b) This next point is low on techno talk and high on folksy talk, but if you like to have technical references and explanations they are out there in growing numbers as more and more research folks come to realize that: OG matter is the panacea for almost every singly soil imbalance. Og matter is especially great for pH issues. If you got's the low pHs it will bring 'em on up (and/or mitigate detrimental effects of low pHs to them plants, e.g. make them nutrients plant-ready even though the pH would seem to be too low) and vice verse if you got those high pH's... That is, compost will buffer your pH like nobody's bizness and so, adding compost and or mulch (will eventually be composted in place) and or cover crops and leaving crop residue behind is just grand for pH adjustment not to mention a lot else... c) It is better to go light on amendments and go again if you have to, rather than a lot infrequently. Adding a lot of anything directly to the soil (save possibly finished compost and even there I think moderation is a good idea, though here i may be in the minority) at once is a sure way to throw whatever balance your soil system is managing to acheive on its own out o' wack and thereby give everyone involved a good case of indigestion. (Incidentally, if you're one for mulching which I think is keeno, surface applications of mulch, whether it be straw, leaves, finished compost, partially finished compost) really can be quite thick/extravagant precisely because they are *surface* and NOT "worked into the soil immediately by our mechanical methods".) With mulch what limits me is available sources and time.... I have seen recommended liming and NPK application rates of folks connected in ag research that to me seem astronomically high...(Remember these rates may not be taking into account any og matter, cause well, lots of folks don't add none...but we're lucky since we do, being og kinda people :-) So, as in UNIX: LESS is definitely MORE :-) d) I didn't understand the question "With crops in the ground how long will it take...with some kind of top dressing..." Are you wondering if the crops affect the rate of pH adjustment? Are you wondering what you can add while crops are in the ground? Or...? e) Lots of plants can grow pertty darn okay a bit "outside" of their "recommended pH range" in my humble experience *if* their is plenty of og matter...that is, good tilth is good news...This supports the claims of point b above. So, if you're adding good amounts of og matter to your crop beds don't worry if the pH is slowly adjsuting itself, so long as them plants are growing good.... f) Sort of a summary to the above: Lime, limestone, oyster shells, etc. (as long doesn't contain the snythetic stuff and be carefull some "ground limestone" does) is an organic jump start for pH. But, it is slow acting, relatively speaking. OTOH, you could create a harmonious soil life, including a proper pH for that soil type/plant community without ever liming simply by doling out the panacea of og matter judiciously. And, indeed, even if you do, as I do, use lime as jump-start adjuster of pH you will want to look to your og matter management systems (cover crops, crop resiude, reduced/no tillage, compost, mulch) as the long term keeper of good soil and good pH. Finally, I am a firm believer that good thoughts are very important to the health of your soil and plants. So, think them good thoughts and watch happy plants grow... If you like these topics you may want to check out other lists on the interet that while not csa or even farmer specific are full of knowledgeable folks. Indeed, gardeners are some of the most valuable sources of information around... eliza's rambling two cents From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 10 12:10:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19513 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21184 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08611; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:56:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08517 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:55:11 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (14413) by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dWOPa01249 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:53:48 EDT Subject: Fwd: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_b34e1f7d.2491398c_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 --part1_b34e1f7d.2491398c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/10/99 7:36:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SCook21809 writes: << Jeff Herr asked the question: > Hello all. > > We are working a new piece of land here and have found that, despite a >good lime application two months ago, we are still acidic. We are in >western Washington State. Still cool and regular rain. > With crops in the ground, how long will it take to adjust the soil PH with >some form of top dressing? > > In other words, how long does it take for the balance to begin shifting? > And what form of buffering amendment is fastest acting, organic, and not > detrimental to the short-term or long-term health of the soil and its > inhabitants? > In a message dated 6/9/99 3:23:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eliza@q7.com writes: Lime, limestone, oyster shells, etc. (as long doesn't contain the snythetic stuff and be carefull some "ground limestone" does) is an organic jump start for pH. But, it is slow acting, relatively speaking. OTOH, you could create a harmonious soil life, including a proper pH for that soil type/plant community without ever liming simply by doling out the panacea of og matter judiciously. And, indeed, even if you do, as I do, use lime as jump-start adjuster of pH you will want to look to your og matter management systems (cover crops, crop resiude, reduced/no tillage, compost, mulch) as the long term keeper of good soil and good pH. >> I feel obliged to temper Eliza's good advice regarding OG matter applications to sweeten soils. Adding OG matter does sustain healthy soils. But it sounds like Jeff's challenge is to nurture a very unbalanced (sick) soil back to health. Simply adding OG matter to tight lifeless soil will only compound Jeff's problems with weeds, chemical imbalance, pests and water run-off. The life giving force that Eliza distributes in her OG matter is derived from the aerobic microorganisms (bacteria and fungi) found in properly managed compost and cover crops. Most soil scientist agree that plants eat at the second table. It is the microbes in the soil that determin the health and life for plants. The microbes digest the OG matter and distribute plant available nutrients in their wastes and their bodies when they die. These aerobic microbes can actually chelate clay and rock particles to provide the minerals your plants require. A teaspoon of Eliza's soil probably contains up to 500 million aerobic microbes. Tens of thousands of species competing for food, eating each other, and nurturing her plants. Soils that are tight, hydrophobic and imbalanced always have anaerobic microorganisms as the predominate life force second only to the pests. Adding OG matter to these soils will compound the problems because the anaerobes produce alcohols and acids as they digest the supplements. Only well made compost contains all the aerobes sick soils require. Making enough good compost for a larger growing operation is nearly impossible. However, growing the microbes from good compost and spraying them onto the soils and as a foliar feed is a safe, efficient and fast way to improve soil tilth. I wrote a five page summary of the principles and technology of making good compost and brewing compost tea. It will appear in the July or August edition of "Growing for Market". Since I'm already late getting out to move my chicken tractor, you will have to wait for the publication. But I feel it prudent to warn you not to run out and load an already sick soil with OG matter. Your patience will be rewarded. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm Bainbridge Island,WA --part1_b34e1f7d.2491398c_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: SCook21809@aol.com From: SCook21809@aol.com Full-name: SCook21809 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:36:02 EDT Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: To: eliza@q7.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Jeff Herr asked the question: > Hello all. > > We are working a new piece of land here and have found that, despite a >good lime application two months ago, we are still acidic. We are in >western Washington State. Still cool and regular rain. > With crops in the ground, how long will it take to adjust the soil PH with >some form of top dressing? > > In other words, how long does it take for the balance to begin shifting? > And what form of buffering amendment is fastest acting, organic, and not > detrimental to the short-term or long-term health of the soil and its > inhabitants? > In a message dated 6/9/99 3:23:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eliza@q7.com writes: Lime, limestone, oyster shells, etc. (as long doesn't contain the snythetic stuff and be carefull some "ground limestone" does) is an organic jump start for pH. But, it is slow acting, relatively speaking. OTOH, you could create a harmonious soil life, including a proper pH for that soil type/plant community without ever liming simply by doling out the panacea of og matter judiciously. And, indeed, even if you do, as I do, use lime as jump-start adjuster of pH you will want to look to your og matter management systems (cover crops, crop resiude, reduced/no tillage, compost, mulch) as the long term keeper of good soil and good pH. >> I feel obliged to temper Eliza's good advice regarding OG matter applications to sweeten soils. Adding OG matter does sustain healthy soils. But it sounds like Jeff's challenge is to nurture a very unbalanced (sick) soil back to health. Simply adding OG matter to tight lifeless soil will only compound Jeff's problems with weeds, chemical imbalance, pests and water run-off. The life giving force that Eliza distributes in her OG matter is derived from the aerobic microorganisms (bacteria and fungi) found in properly managed compost and cover crops. Most soil scientist agree that plants eat at the second table. It is the microbes in the soil that determin the health and life for plants. The microbes digest the OG matter and distribute plant available nutrients in their wastes and their bodies when they die. These aerobic microbes can actually chelate clay and rock particles to provide the minerals your plants require. A teaspoon of Eliza's soil probably contains up to 500 million aerobic microbes. Tens of thousands of species competing for food, eating each other, and nurturing her plants. Soils that are tight, hydrophobic and imbalanced always have anaerobic microorganisms as the predominate life force second only to the pests. Adding OG matter to these soils will compound the problems because the anaerobes produce alcohols and acids as they digest the supplements. Only well made compost contains all the aerobes sick soils require. Making enough good compost for a larger growing operation is nearly impossible. However, growing the microbes from good compost and spraying them onto the soils and as a foliar feed is a safe, efficient and fast way to improve soil tilth. I wrote a five page summary of the principles and technology of making good compost and brewing compost tea. It will appear in the July or August edition of "Growing for Market". Since I'm already late getting out to move my chicken tractor, you will have to wait for the publication. But I feel it prudent to warn you not to run out and load an already sick soil with OG matter. Your patience will be rewarded. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm Bainbridge Island,WA --part1_b34e1f7d.2491398c_boundary-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 10 12:34:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20098 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27102 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10581; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:23:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.interhop.net (root@mail2.auracom.net [165.154.140.22]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10518 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:23:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dp80.interhop.net (dp80.interhop.net [209.5.48.80]) by mail.interhop.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA05986 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906101623.MAA05986@mail.interhop.net> X-Sender: leppinger@mail.interhop.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Eppinger Subject: Help with cut worms Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 355 I run a CSA market garden near Toronto, Ontario (Canada). We have an infestation of black cut worms (a.k.a. as Root Maggots). This grub had never been a problem for us before. This year it is sparing nothing and we have lost entire lettuce, spinach, beet, chard and other plantings to it. Digging for them by hand is almost impossible on 8 acres, though we have squished a fair amount so far ! I would very much appreciate to hear from anyone who knows about these cut worms and may have suggestions on how to deal with them. thanks, Lorenz Eppinger Switch Farm / Campbellville, Ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 10 12:46:00 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20353 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29482 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11087; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11004 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:28:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20436; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Fwd: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 356 You bring up some good points. But, I am not sure my experience agrees with all that you say. Though I agree that there's no doubt about it that compost sprays. soil or foilar are great... And, though no doubt you're totally right that you can't do on a large scale what you do on a small scale. And, I'm on a very small scale so I count myself very lucky.... I don't know as the original poster's soil is in quite as dire shape as you suggest. I'd say they should look at how their plants are growing, including the weeds and use that as a guide... (I am not alone in my heretical thinking but find soil tests of limited use...Indeed, I once divided a sample in half and sent it to two labs with very different results and I believe it was Rodale who did this with manny many samples sent to many many different labs...But, I'm fine with folks using lab tests as a rough guideline, and have used 'em myself.) In any event, I should add that I doubt all or any of my soil is as healthy as you say. Be nice if it were, but... I have some pretty lifeless soil in some places and what has helped as far as I can tell is the decision to add more og matter and to NOT turn it in. I think the not turning it in is an important piece and one I did not emphasize much. Now I don't happen to dig/till my soils much, if at all. But, even when I did/if I did, I would still apply things to the surface (whether they are cover crops or mulches or compost) rather than turning them in. Honestly, it just seems to work better. I think, it's a case of replicating to some degree the successes of nature...She surface applies her og matter...Indeed, as time goes on I find I use mulch more (un- conposted plant matter, e.g. cover crop left on the surface and planted through or leaves applied in fall or straw/alfalfa as a mulch for the summer more and more and this means less work making all that "finished compost" :-) In any event, what I was really surprised by in your post was the claim that if your soil is sick enough adding og matter will make things worse. I guess I'm feeling disbelief at that. All my experience and the things I've heard from others' direct experience points to the exact opposite. If your soil is sick enough, og matter *and* (the part I left out) low/reduced/no tillage is the best thing you can do for it. I agree that limestone, soft rock phosphate, kelp etc. are good jump-starts when necessary, but I also do still really think that you have to start with the og matter from the get go. And, finished compost is great but so is all kinds of surface mulch....like tree leaves, alfalfa, straw, etc. etc... Patience is a key. But, i guess iu just think that you will get the best result by adding what og matter you can from the start.... The fact that most farmers/growers/gardeners (myself included) can not produce all the og matter they use...says many things, important things such as we've got a long way to go to, maybe our current farming paradigms (even most of the og ones) are missing some key elements, etc. But, what it doesn't say is that you shouldn't strive to have sufficient og matter to add to your soil..... Anyhow, I'll look forward to your article, I am certain it will challenge my views and force change. Even though I'm opinionated I love debates because they do force me to rethink and change my position. :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 10 14:23:57 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23018 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20151 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18421; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:12:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA18356 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 13:11:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906101811.NAA18356@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 279338767; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:11:44 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , "Eppinger" Subject: Re: Help with cut worms Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:13:21 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 357 We have been dealing with cutworms for some years and have little to offer but sympathy. Here are some things we have tried (recognizing in some cases that we are only working 1/2 acre) 1. collars around the stem of larger plants like tomatoes and pepper seedlings. Heavey paper and comfrey leaves are our two main choices. They often work butr are time consuming to install. We have found cutworms inside our collars at times. 2. toothpicks around the stem of plants (2 or 3) are supposed to interfere with the cutworm's meal but our success with this has been limited. 3. cornmeal spread around the garden area is supposed to be indigestable for them, but they like it. Better yet if a little molasses is included. Our experience has not been that good. 4. Diatomaceous earth is supposed to cut them up and they die horribly. We wish! 5. Theis year we are trying oyster shell for the same reason as #4. Same result. 6. this year's most promising experiment involves the clean garden bed. No weeds in the fall and the moth that lays the eggs seeks a better place for the babies. We think it is helping. BTW this means no winter rye in those beds. 7. predatory nematodes did not seem to help...maybe it is too cool in our northern climate for the nematodes when the cutorms are getting going. 8. Bt will do them in if you can think of a way to get it to them effectively. 9. They are active at night, so poking around with a flashlight can be productive, as if you have energy left after dark to prowl around 8 acres... 10. Moles came into the gardens and have had good effect, and left some of our earthworms. Hope for moles. As you can see we have had little success. We plant extra and wait them out. Even though they can have several generations of worms even in the North, the early damage is always the only really bad time. We are almost out of "cutworm season" in our northern MI gardens. If you learn anything that is not posted to this list LET US KNOW! Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Eppinger > To: csa-l@prairienet.org > Subject: Help with cut worms > Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 12:23 PM > > I run a CSA market garden near Toronto, Ontario (Canada). > We have an infestation of black cut worms (a.k.a. as Root Maggots). This > grub had never been a problem for us before. This year it is sparing > nothing and we have lost entire lettuce, spinach, beet, chard and other > plantings to it. Digging for them by hand is almost impossible on 8 acres, > though we have squished a fair amount so far ! > I would very much appreciate to hear from anyone who knows about these cut > worms and may have suggestions on how to deal with them. > thanks, > Lorenz Eppinger > Switch Farm / Campbellville, Ontario > Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Eppinger > To: csa-l@prairienet.org > Subject: Help with cut worms > Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 12:23 PM > > I run a CSA market garden near Toronto, Ontario (Canada). > We have an infestation of black cut worms (a.k.a. as Root Maggots). This > grub had never been a problem for us before. This year it is sparing > nothing and we have lost entire lettuce, spinach, beet, chard and other > plantings to it. Digging for them by hand is almost impossible on 8 acres, > though we have squished a fair amount so far ! > I would very much appreciate to hear from anyone who knows about these cut > worms and may have suggestions on how to deal with them. > thanks, > Lorenz Eppinger > Switch Farm / Campbellville, Ontario > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 01:06:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06935 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 01:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26103 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27177; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:47:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27095 for ; Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:46:58 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (14403) by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dCDWa18150 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:45:46 EDT Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 << I am not alone in my heretical thinking. But I find soil tests of limited use.>> Amen Sister! William Albrecht demonstrated the fallacies of the NPK paradigm in very tight academic research. Unfortunately, his raising the red flag initiated his early retirement from academia. Which was closely followed by hefty grants to the Univ. of Missouri by petrochemical interests. <> There is a world of difference between og matter and living finished compost. When you add og matter to soil which is primarily mediated by anaerobic microbes, that og matter will still be there after 3 months. The alcohols excreted by the anaerobes pickle and preserve that og matter for simphylins, root eating nematodes and other pest to enjoy. But when you add good finished compost to such soil the aerobes buffer the acids and alcohols while competing with and feeding on the anaerobes. Now one application of living compost will not change the tight airless soil much. But repeated applications of compost, or better yet compost tea, will show dramatic changes in the soil structure over the course of just one season. The decision not to disturb that newly created soil structure is the most important factor in rehabilitating poor tilth. Soil aerobes open soils to allow air and water movement through. Tillage completely destroys their little living spaces much like tornadoes in the Midwest do to our homes. The survivors, if there are any, pick up the pieces and rebuild. If conditions are favorable, they begin to reproduce again and the disturbance is forgotten. However, over time, frequent use of heavy equipment and the tornado tillage will leave no survivors which puts you back to tight, airless and hydrophobic soil. << I think, it's a case of replicating to some degree the successes of nature...She surface applies her og matter.>> But nature doesn't succession plant in one season and then export the nutritious elements to neighbors, stores and Farmers' Markets. If you intend to replicate her multitasking and generous benevolence, then take less from her or replace more of what you take in the harvest. << Patience is the key. The fact that most farmers/growers/gardeners (myself included) cannot produce all the og matter they use...says many things, important things such as we've got a long way to go to, maybe our current farming paradigms (even most of the og ones) are missing some key elements, etc.>> I just gave you the paradigm shift. Yet, you are resistant to believing its accuracy. My experience in using this new technology is that I started farming on hard pan clay 6 years ago. Today, I have amazing tilth, drainage and fertility. As a foliar spray I have arrested blight on tomatoes and potatoes, reversed powdery and downy mildew on squash and grapes. Eliminated leaf curl on peach trees and scab on apples. I'm better off if other growers don't apply this new technology. Because I can produce more with less inputs than any of them. By producing my own inputs, I become much more sustainable. I know this subject is going to be highly controversial. People like Dennis Avery will, in their ignorance and financial interest, warn of e-coli and salmonella outbreaks. But simple truths remain truths regardless of what you or I choose to believe. I don't need GMOs to prevent weed and pest infestations. Spirit has already provided everything we require. We need only to observe and support nature in her efforts to sustain this space ship. We will be much healthier, once we stop trying to judge and improve nature to satisfy our will. I'll see you in the funny papers....Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 08:44:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10850 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09293 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA04915; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:31:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04360 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:28:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA04006; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:28:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-134.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.134) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003993; Fri Jun 11 07:27:44 1999 Message-ID: <000801beb405$6dc1b4c0$86fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:24:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 359 Art, Missed something somewhere is the foliar spray you mention, compost tea spray? I had a rosemary plant with powdery mildew and my organic pest book recommended compost tea, I tried it and I do think my rosemary is looking better. Ps does anyone have tips to sucessfully wintering a rosemary in the house? Beth >I just gave you the paradigm shift. Yet, you are resistant to believing its >accuracy. My experience in using this new technology is that I started >farming on hard pan clay 6 years ago. Today, I have amazing tilth, drainage >and fertility. As a foliar spray I have arrested blight on tomatoes and >potatoes, reversed powdery and downy mildew on squash and grapes. Eliminated >leaf curl on peach trees and scab on apples. I'm better off if other growers >don't apply this new technology. Because I can produce more with less inputs >than any of them. By producing my own inputs, I become much more sustainable. > >I know this subject is going to be highly controversial. People like Dennis >Avery will, in their ignorance and financial interest, warn of e-coli and >salmonella outbreaks. But simple truths remain truths regardless of what you >or I choose to believe. I don't need GMOs to prevent weed and pest >infestations. Spirit has already provided everything we require. We need >only to observe and support nature in her efforts to sustain this space ship. > We will be much healthier, once we stop trying to judge and improve nature >to satisfy our will. > >I'll see you in the funny papers....Art > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 10:32:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13117 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28875 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26130; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:21:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25511 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:16:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-165.premier1.net [207.149.54.165]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id HAA28830 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:14:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199906111414.HAA28830@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:14:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: the big picture Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 360 It's been interesting reading the dialogues that come up on this list. I'm a pretty quiet viewer and usually limit my correspondence to the person directing the inquiry. A couple of times I've been tempted to address the whole group but haven't due to time etc. This time however, I feel that something needs to be said. There are countless ways to farm, organically or conventionally and every farmer is opioniated with the idea that their way is better. Quite simply the soil is a very forgiving life force and mistakes made can be rectified. I farm with the idea that the less work the better. That means I won't spend time making a compost tea, that is one step too many. I do make compost and it is added regularly to my fields. I put as many varieties of compostable matter into my piles to give the composts I make as much fungi and bacteria as possible. You don't need tons of this stuff, a little goes a long way. After all it is just an inoculation of these little guys, they multiply and do the rest. If you don't add compost and just ammendments, your plants are going to grow as well, perhaps not as luxuriantly but they will grow and you will get a harvest. That phrase, "next year" sound familiar. So those of you that are first or second year farmers, don't panic you are on the right track just by being out there and farming. I think getting those good guys into the soil by spraying with a tea labor intensive, and wonder if the spray is contributing more to the brix factor of the plant than anything else. I have used teas before to help with problems and it is a great advantage over other means, but I see no difference when I use it when I don't have problems. However for someone with the time and energy to do this I say more power to them. I've been to Jeff's fields, his soil is not sick. His plants are doing well. Remember, plants can grow in a wide range of ph. It's only when it's far one side or the other that there are problems. It's been very cold, wet and awful here this spring. We are averaging 10 degrees below normal and that is what is really the problem. Continuing to build the soil, whatever manner he decides to will help bring his ph to the level desirable. So, to stop this rambling that's the way I'm doing it this year. Next year I might try something a bit different. I do okay this way. Actually I do rather well. I farm approximately 3 acres, have a laying flock of 300, and seasonally do meat birds, mostly by myself so mymethod of as little work as possible is best for me. But it isn't the only way! Praying for sunshine Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation Wa From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 11:03:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13743 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05114 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01535; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:52:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01161 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:50:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 18291 invoked from network); 11 Jun 1999 14:50:08 -0000 Received: from a48-02-08.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.72) (216.26.11.72) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 11 Jun 1999 14:50:08 -0000 Message-ID: <37612264.5F2E@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:51:19 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FranksFarm@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: So what is a spader? References: <476a00e.2491109f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 I believe you can get spaders "built into a tractor" as dedicated machines as well as in the form of smaller walk-behind self-contained units. Our spader is a standard 3-point implement and fits any tractor with a standard 3-point hitch (I think category 3 - whatever the standard regular size is - not the monster size) It is Italian made, and I think Italy sort of has a corner on the market with a number of manufacturers producing them, though I don't know why other countries don't seem to make any. Maybe Italy jusy got started first. Size and brand of tractor shouldn't be particularly important, but it must have sufficient horsepower (which depends on the width of the spader and how hard your soil is - ask the supplier of the spader) and must be able to go slow enough at full PTO speed. This last is critical, and the reason we rent a tractor to use our spader - we have plenty of power, but can't go slow enough (1 to 1-1/2 mph). Of course, the tractor needs a 3-point hitch, but I think all true tractors (as opposed to garden tractors) do now. If you are looking for a tractor with the idea of buying one, I recommend 4-wheel drive (extends your season) and hydrostatic transmission (or something like it) for infinite speed control. Another word about tractors: we do very little soil turning, except when bringin soil back into balance (once balanced we keep soil in balance without turning by using mulches, rock powders and compost). We use the tractor mainly for two things: mowing and hauling materials in the loader. If this seems to make sense to you I recommend that you get a tractor with AT LEAST 42 PTO HP - that is at least 42 HP at the power take off. This will mean the hydraulic system will have the capacity to handle a good sized loader bucket (say 3' by 3' by 6'). With just a little less horsepower you are stuck with dinky loaders that hold about 20% as much stuff. Takes forever. For informtion get ahold of Ferarri Tractor Et Cie. in California. They probably have a web site, but I don't know what it is. Good growing, Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust FranksFarm@aol.com wrote: "Hi Will, In a message dated 6/9/99 10:17:30 PM, osalt@teleport.com writes: $3,200 including shipping to Portland, and well worth it. One person on a small tractor can prepare literally 10 times as many beds as by hand. (2 guys - with shovels, rakes, etc., 4 beds, 8 hours vs. 1 guy - with tractor and spader, 20 beds, 8 hours). >> Sounds real good to me. Somehow I thought this machine came with a small Italian made tractor. Sounds like the above is an attachment. What size , brand type tractor would you recommend for it. Can too much HP, size be a problem.? Will this attachment fit on all tractors? Do you know where I can get more literature, info on this spader? Thanks again. Frank <<" From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 11:14:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14123 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07324 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03157; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:02:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03081 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:01:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 21876 invoked from network); 11 Jun 1999 15:01:51 -0000 Received: from a48-02-08.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.72) (216.26.11.72) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 11 Jun 1999 15:01:51 -0000 Message-ID: <37612522.4B26@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:03:03 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SCook21809@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 362 Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes! As growers we often fail to examine what may be our worst unexamined assumption: we assume that we can remove material from the cycle (by harvesting and exporting) and suffer no consequences. Until we can close the cycle by some combination of reducing our exports and/or replacing that exported material with imported material, we are going to be out of balance. SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > > << I am not alone in my heretical thinking. But I find soil tests of limited > use.>> > > Amen Sister! > > William Albrecht demonstrated the fallacies of the NPK paradigm in very tight > academic research. Unfortunately, his raising the red flag initiated his > early retirement from academia. Which was closely followed by hefty grants > to the Univ. of Missouri by petrochemical interests. > > < healthy as you say. Be nice if it were, but... I have some pretty lifeless > soil in some places and what has helped as far as I can tell is the > decision to add more og matter and to NOT turn it in.>> > > There is a world of difference between og matter and living finished compost. > When you add og matter to soil which is primarily mediated by anaerobic > microbes, that og matter will still be there after 3 months. The alcohols > excreted by the anaerobes pickle and preserve that og matter for simphylins, > root eating nematodes and other pest to enjoy. But when you add good > finished compost to such soil the aerobes buffer the acids and alcohols while > competing with and feeding on the anaerobes. Now one application of living > compost will not change the tight airless soil much. But repeated > applications of compost, or better yet compost tea, will show dramatic > changes in the soil structure over the course of just one season. > > The decision not to disturb that newly created soil structure is the most > important factor in rehabilitating poor tilth. Soil aerobes open soils to > allow air and water movement through. Tillage completely destroys their > little living spaces much like tornadoes in the Midwest do to our homes. The > survivors, if there are any, pick up the pieces and rebuild. If conditions > are favorable, they begin to reproduce again and the disturbance is > forgotten. However, over time, frequent use of heavy equipment and the > tornado tillage will leave no survivors which puts you back to tight, airless > and hydrophobic soil. > > << I think, it's a case of replicating to some degree the successes of > nature...She surface applies her og matter.>> > > But nature doesn't succession plant in one season and then export the > nutritious elements to neighbors, stores and Farmers' Markets. If you intend > to replicate her multitasking and generous benevolence, then take less from > her or replace more of what you take in the harvest. > > << Patience is the key. The fact that most farmers/growers/gardeners (myself > included) cannot produce all the og matter they use...says many things, > important things such as we've got a long way to go to, maybe our current > farming paradigms (even most of the og ones) are missing some key elements, > etc.>> > > I just gave you the paradigm shift. Yet, you are resistant to believing its > accuracy. My experience in using this new technology is that I started > farming on hard pan clay 6 years ago. Today, I have amazing tilth, drainage > and fertility. As a foliar spray I have arrested blight on tomatoes and > potatoes, reversed powdery and downy mildew on squash and grapes. Eliminated > leaf curl on peach trees and scab on apples. I'm better off if other growers > don't apply this new technology. Because I can produce more with less inputs > than any of them. By producing my own inputs, I become much more sustainable. > > I know this subject is going to be highly controversial. People like Dennis > Avery will, in their ignorance and financial interest, warn of e-coli and > salmonella outbreaks. But simple truths remain truths regardless of what you > or I choose to believe. I don't need GMOs to prevent weed and pest > infestations. Spirit has already provided everything we require. We need > only to observe and support nature in her efforts to sustain this space ship. > We will be much healthier, once we stop trying to judge and improve nature > to satisfy our will. > > I'll see you in the funny papers....Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 14:00:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18300 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13475 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19775; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:50:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18971 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:44:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15178; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:43:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: mjb@premier1.net cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: the big picture In-Reply-To: <199906111414.HAA28830@premier1.premier1.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 363 On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 mjb@premier1.net wrote: > It's been interesting reading the dialogues that come up on this > list. I'm a pretty quiet viewer and usually limit my correspondence > to the person directing the inquiry. A couple of times I've been > tempted to address the whole group but haven't due to time etc. > This time however, I feel that something needs to be said. Thanks for your comments. I really appreciated them and think they are right on the money:-) Thanks again for reminding me of the importance of humility. :-) eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 14:00:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18303 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13474 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:52:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19718; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:50:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from q7.q7.com (eliza@q7.q7.com [206.58.126.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18846 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:41:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (eliza@localhost) by q7.q7.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15168; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:41:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Eliza Lindsay To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 364 On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > > There is a world of difference between og matter and living finished compost. > When you add og matter to soil which is primarily mediated by anaerobic > microbes, that og matter will still be there after 3 months. The alcohols I agree that finished compost and og matter are very different things....Never said otherwise. All I said was that I thought applying non-composted og matter as a surface mulch is almost always beneficial... I dunna know, being hard-headed maybe...I agree that "turning og matter *into* the soil creates what I call "indigestion" or what you more "scientifically" describe. But, I really find that surface mulching works great for me and I don't think it's giving the soil stomach pains *or* favoring the "bad microbes" (I actually don't think there are good or bad microbes just balance and imbalance.) Surface mulch conserves water, protects surface applied compost and or the surface of the soil from drying, does some of what cover crops do to mitigate leaching, provides a very slow release food for future plants, etc, etc,.... Interestingly, it doesn't seem to be favoring at all my #1 "bad guy" out here in the pnw...slugs.... So, that's what I was trying to suggest and I am not sure we're really disagreeing about much. > > << I think, it's a case of replicating to some degree the successes of > nature...She surface applies her og matter.>> > > But nature doesn't succession plant in one season and then export the > nutritious elements to neighbors, stores and Farmers' Markets. If you intend > to replicate her multitasking and generous benevolence, then take less from > her or replace more of what you take in the harvest. Exactly, I suggested as much in my post and indeed I do return more and more to the bed as a *surface mulch* than ever before, be it cover crop, crop residue, etc. etc. With most of my crops I am not actually taking much away, percentage away. And, too herbacious perennials are a big part of my cut flower production. Perennials are much nicer in many ways, as I am sure you're aware (even short-lived perennials...) I think I am continuing to toot the horn of surface mulching because I think people underestimate the power of mulching. Finished compost is great but it is a time/energy/input intensive thing and it is very good, I think, to remember that no one's turning any compost piles out there in the grasslands or forests (what little remain).... Of course, our fields and gardens are not forests and grasslands so we have to modify what we do, but it was only my contention that we observe processes in healthy ecosystems as a way to spark ideas of how to do things simply and more sustainably. (Guess that isn't really *my* idea at all since lots of have had it , but I wanted to explain my position since you seemed to be misunderstanding it... Again I am not sure that we disagree on this point either...) > > I just gave you the paradigm shift. Yet, you are resistant to believing its > accuracy. My experience in using this new technology is that I started > farming on hard pan clay 6 years ago. Today, I have amazing tilth, drainage Sorry, you are taking my questions and disagreements this way. I am perhaps too typical in that I don't just accept anything anyone says without turning it around my brain, mulling over it, and coming back with questions... But, I persist in my belief that this questioning/curiosity is a good thing... I hope the next bit will not be inappropriate advice. I almost didn't write it. But, I happen to respect your ideas having read your posts and other things in GFM (you have written in there before, if I recollect correctly, no?) and so wanted to give you a piece of editorly/personal advice. Your responses to my posts have been a little hard to digest for two related reasons: Your responses come off a little preachy as in this is the ONE TRUE WAY.... Also, often you seem to not really have heard what I was saying. So, instead of realizing you're agreeing with me and/or stating something I had already stated you kinda bulldoze over my remarks and ideas.... It is my slightly less than humble contention that folks' respond better to ideas when presented in a non-preachy manner and when they feel their own ideas, insights, and experiences are receiving both due attention and due credit. I also happen to think that we all fall prey to the we've got the true way syndrome (I know I do).....So, I constantly strive for humility and the recognition that there is always more than one way to do anything. When I fall into thinking I've the only connection to true and right is when my vision becomes most myopic and I miss out on others' tantalizing discoveries... For example, I don't think there is "THE" paradigm shift but rather paradigm shifts.... So, I happen to be pretty versed in debate and not easily turned off by prickly or preachy mannerisms in oration (though I must say your responses did give me pause). I know how to set aside style and still get what I want which is a new, fresh idea/method/insight/experience. But I think you'll find people listening more attentively to your experience and insights if you preach less and listen more. > > I'll see you in the funny papers....Art I don't know how to take that one liner. So, I'll just ignore it rather than imagine what it could mean. Respectfully yours, eliza From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 15:21:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20573 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02456 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25426; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:09:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25142 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:05:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26900>; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:09:33 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: osalt@teleport.com cc: FranksFarm@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Jun11.140933cdt.26900@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:03:15 -0500 Subject: Re: So what is a spader? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 365 ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA14247 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29280; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from main.tellink.net (root@main.tellink.net [208.3.160.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29227 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:59:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from barthunte.tellink.net (pm-2-9.tellink.net [208.3.160.90]) by main.tellink.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA18727 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000a01beb443$7ac39880$5aa003d0@tellink.net> From: "W. Bart Hunter" To: References: <476a00e.2491109f@aol.com> <37612264.5F2E@teleport.com> Subject: Re: So what is a spader? Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:49:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 366 Hi Folks, I don't have clue as to what a spader is. But I have to question the notion that a 42 HP (horse power) tractor is a valid goal for the small CSA farmer. In fact most tractors I've use have had far less horse power then that. I do agree with the four wheel drive. The problem I see is that most, but certainly not all members this list farm relatively small plots. A medium size tractor, 42 HP does fall into that range, is so large and expensive that it would be out of the question for most growers. I'd say you are looking at $30,000 plus worth of tractor. A whole book can be written on the "right tractor" for the small farmer. However, if we look back we see that there have been many tractors already in the field that work very well. For example the MF 135--a 35 HP tractor (newer ones with a different number are four wheel drive) work well and run forever--go Diesel not gas!. Several of the smaller John Deers work well. And let us not forget the old (1950's) Ford 8N's and (9N's). As for speed. I've yet to see a tractor that wouldn't go less then 1.5 mph in low gear/low range except some of the really old tractors. The key is the Power Take Off RPM's (revolutions per minute) 90% of all Cat 3, 3 point hitch driven equipment runs at 540 RPM's in this country. Some mowers and a few rakes are the exception. Therefor the speed of the tractor needs to be matched to the job. To do this most tractors have many speeds. Thus the tractor engine is sped up to 540's (it is marked on the tachometer) and the proper gear is selected for the ground speed. A note on European equipment. Most will fit American tractors or can be fitted by a competent mechanic. They sell some of the neatest small attachments you can find for the small farm--grain harvesters, plows, mowers, and all sorts of cultivators. We must remember that they have more small farms then we do and have developed the equipment to farm with. Their tractors are really great also--I once drove a 35 HP 4 wheel drive tractor that would handle all the equipment I used in our vineyard and the highest point on the tractor, was the top of the steering wheel, was under 40 inches! The tires on our Massy 135 were taller then that! Small is beautiful and often works better. Bart From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 18:15:42 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24460 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11780 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA08507; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:01:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08400 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:01:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990611220047.YXFU2201.gigi@doby.excite.com> for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:00:47 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Small is Good(was So what is a spader?) Message-Id: <929138447.14817.788@excite.com> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 15:00:47 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.115 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 367 I agree with Bart, small is good. I have noticed most people have under 10 acres and a 4 wheeled tractor can be too big for such small holding. Upon reading Eliot coleman's book The new Organic grower we went out and bought a 2 wheeled walking tractor and love the thing. We wanted a 10hp Goldoni but there were none in stock so we went with a 12hp BCS with several attachments including a tiller box and sickle bar mower (we can now use the lawn for compost). This replaced a 5hp front tine sears tiller. This machine has a PTO 3 speeds + reverse and does a nice tillage job plus it can lay mulch, mow, move rocks etc Basically what the 4 wheeled jobs do but it is smaller so it is easy to use in out 4' bed system. And like all goo small farm equipment it is italian. I suspect BCS does make a spader for thie machine but the US company had not heard of the spader concept so we let that topic drop. Sometime I shall contact the Milan factory to see for sure as I have noticed what these Italian companies offer to the US and Canada is ofyten not the whole European line. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 11 23:22:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28133 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16716 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA26641; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:10:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26586 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:10:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (209-142-54-149.stk.jps.net [209.142.54.149]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA23265 for ; Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3761640C.70A918D6@jps.net> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:31:25 +0000 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: So what is a spader? References: <476a00e.2491109f@aol.com> <37612264.5F2E@teleport.com> <000a01beb443$7ac39880$5aa003d0@tellink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 I don't have one, but i saw one demonstrated once. It did a nice job, but what made me stop and think was the number of moving parts! I swear there are a lot of them! I know how often I have to replace tines on my tiller. I figured the life of the spader was about equal to the life of new tines, then you would have to replace the whole thing. Don't have any experience with spaders though so am just guessing. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 12 14:24:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04686 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25518 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA00515; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:13:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00422 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 13:12:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fox.gamewood.net (0@fox.gamewood.net [206.229.248.28]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27954 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:10:41 -0400 Received: from pavilion (pts0306.gamewood.net [206.229.249.69]) by fox.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17495 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:10:39 -0400 Message-ID: <004b01beb518$baeeb040$45f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: drip irrigation sources Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:15:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0048_01BEB4DE.0D740800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BEB4DE.0D740800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of you looking for drip irrigation supplies, do a search on = the web for it, you'll find many sources, The one I've been using is: = www.dipirrigation.com AKA the Drip Store. Shipping is fairly reasonable as long as you use the slowest methods for = the heavy stuff like rolls of tubing. They also have lots of help too. = They are mostly for landscapers and home owners, so you might be able to = find better prices elsewhere in a more commercial farming site, but I = like this one for now because of the customer support. Like Eliza, I also use drip tape down my rows, and each row has its own = valve. Although I have yet to try to crimp off my lines, my husband = suggests first wrapping the line w/ a piece of felt (to prevent damage) = and then put a Quarter (or silver dollar or large washer) above and = below the line (so you need 2 coins) and hold them in place with a pair = of Vise-grips. Amy Johnson Long Island VA akjedj@gamewood.net ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BEB4DE.0D740800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    For those of you looking for drip irrigation = supplies, do a=20 search on the web for it, you'll find many sources, The one I've been = using is:=20 www.dipirrigation.com AKA = the Drip=20 Store.
     
    Shipping is fairly reasonable as long as you use the = slowest=20 methods for the heavy stuff like rolls of tubing. They also have lots of = help=20 too. They are mostly for landscapers and home owners, so you might be = able to=20 find better prices elsewhere in a more commercial farming site, but I = like this=20 one for now because of the customer support.
     
    Like Eliza, I also use drip tape down my rows, and = each row=20 has its own valve. Although I have yet to try to crimp off my lines, my = husband=20 suggests first wrapping the line w/ a piece of felt (to prevent damage) = and then=20 put a Quarter (or silver dollar or large washer) above and below the = line (so=20 you need 2 coins) and hold them in place with a pair of = Vise-grips.
     
    Amy Johnson
    Long Island VA
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    ------=_NextPart_000_0048_01BEB4DE.0D740800-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 12 15:34:23 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05661 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09409 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA03806; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:24:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03758 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:23:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fox.gamewood.net (0@fox.gamewood.net [206.229.248.28]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29275 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:21:48 -0400 Received: from pavilion (pts0306.gamewood.net [206.229.249.69]) by fox.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23163 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:21:47 -0400 Message-ID: <009701beb522$aa6c6aa0$45f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: small is good(what is a spader) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:26:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01BEB4E7.FD34E5E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BEB4E7.FD34E5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was glad to read the response posted by Lucy Goodman-Owsley, as I feel = that keeping the right scale equipment with the right sized business is = extremely important when it comes to farming. Purchasing inputs for the = farm and paying for them can be a neverending cycle of debt. Just look = at some of the "traditional" farmers out there, with a need to buy = bigger equipment to farm more land, needing to farm more land to pay for = the equipment, a glut of their crop lowering the price, needing more = crop since the price is so low, needing more fertilizer, etc, etc.... Anyway, if your farm can support the price of said equipment and it = improves your production go for it! Good for you! But I feel it is = important to keep equipment multi-purpose, versitile, easy to repair = (Good point by Richard Roth), and low in cost for the truly small = farmer. For really small farms you could try to do the same thing as a spader = with a broad fork. I too believe in the value of a walking tractor, I bought one from my = neighbor's junk pile for $100! All it needed was a new spring for the = pull start.It has a one-bottom moldboard plow attachment which is great = for turning over a cover crop. How ever it is very old (a David Bradley = tractor, you can see a picture of one like it in Johnny's Selected Seeds = Catalogue) and I don't trust it's belt drive for attachments so I will = use it only for pull behind attachments. I also have a rear tine tiller, = and that's enough to keep me going until I grow a bigger business. Maybe = I can buy an old used tractor from one of the surrounding tobacco = farmers. As Organic farms grow in size and popularity, we must be carefull to = avoid the traps that got hold of the well-intentioned farmer years ago = when petrochemical and equipment dealers first started to advise farmers = on how to improve their farms. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BEB4E7.FD34E5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I was glad to read the response posted by Lucy = Goodman-Owsley,=20 as I feel that keeping the right scale equipment with the right sized = business=20 is extremely important when it comes to farming. Purchasing inputs for = the farm=20 and paying for them can be a neverending cycle of debt. Just look at = some of the=20 "traditional" farmers out there, with a need to buy bigger equipment to = farm=20 more land, needing to farm more land to pay for the equipment, a glut of = their=20 crop lowering the price, needing more crop since the price is so low, = needing=20 more fertilizer, etc, etc....
     
    Anyway, if your farm can support the price of said = equipment=20 and it improves your production go for it! Good for you! But I feel it = is=20 important to keep equipment multi-purpose, versitile, easy to repair = (Good point=20 by Richard Roth), and low in cost for the truly small = farmer.
     
    For really small farms you could try to do = the same=20 thing as a spader with a broad fork.
     
    I too believe in the value of a walking tractor, I = bought one=20 from my neighbor's junk pile for $100! All it needed was a new spring = for the=20 pull start.It has a one-bottom moldboard plow attachment which is great = for=20 turning over a cover crop. How ever it is very old (a David Bradley = tractor, you=20 can see a picture of one like it in Johnny's Selected Seeds Catalogue) = and I=20 don't trust it's belt drive for attachments so I will use it only for = pull=20 behind attachments. I also have a rear tine tiller, and that's enough to = keep me=20 going until I grow a bigger business. Maybe I can buy an old used = tractor from=20 one of the surrounding tobacco farmers.
     
    As Organic farms grow in size and popularity, we = must be=20 carefull to avoid the traps that got hold of the well-intentioned farmer = years=20 ago when petrochemical and equipment dealers first started to advise=20 farmers on how to improve their farms.
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BEB4E7.FD34E5E0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 12 16:16:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06042 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA18677 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05574; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:05:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nac.net (tempest.nac.net [209.123.109.39]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05435 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 15:03:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 2967 invoked by uid 0); 12 Jun 1999 20:03:01 -0000 Received: from s9.dial2.wsh.nac.net (HELO home) (207.99.55.129) by tempest.nac.net with SMTP; 12 Jun 1999 20:03:01 -0000 From: "Brad Attig" To: "Organic Gardeners" Subject: Internet Seed Trading Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:04:11 -0400 Message-ID: <000901beb50e$be0dd620$563763cf@home> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEB4ED.36FC3620" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2232.26 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: 000000003B287B8B1591D111B27A9CFF04C10000041D2400 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEB4ED.36FC3620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just wanted to alert everyone to a list server maintained by David Ford in PA. He has a free service to exchange seeds. It is not commercial and he does not sell the member list. To subscribe simply send a blank e-mail with the work SUBSCRIBE in the subject to seed@bigfoot.com Have a wonderful and productive summer. Brad Attig ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEB4ED.36FC3620 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+Ig0UAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAAM8HBgAMABAAAwAAAAYAAQEB A5AGAPwFAAAnAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAB4AcAAB AAAAFgAAAEludGVybmV0IFNlZWQgVHJhZGluZwAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG+tQ6VW8ISJksgnRHT snqXaCZpYSUAAAIBHQwBAAAAFwAAAFNNVFA6QlJBREFUVElHQE5BQy5ORVQAAAsAAQ4AAAAAQAAG DgDyM5IOtb4BAgEKDgEAAAAYAAAAAAAAADsoe4sVkdERsnqc/wTBAADCgAAACwAfDgEAAAADAAYQ l36qkAMABxAKAQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAASUpVU1RXQU5URURUT0FMRVJURVZFUllPTkVUT0FMSVNU U0VSVkVSTUFJTlRBSU5FREJZREFWSURGT1JESU5QQUhFSEFTQUZSRUVTRVJWSUNFVE9FWENIQU5H RVNFRURTSVRJUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAJwBAACYAQAA3QEAAExaRnVG2/SMAwAKAHJjcGcxMjUWMgD4 C2BuDhAwMzOdAfcgAqQDYwIAY2gKwEBzZXQwIEcKwGEpBGBuZAKAfQqBdWOjAFALA3VsbgIgZQKx QCBJIGp1cwVAd4UAcHQJgCB0byAHQNMEkAVAZXYEkHkTIRRjXCBsBAAFQBEwchURIB8AwAuAAZAL gBRBYnkg0ERhdmkUUEYFsBRQAQuAIFBBLiAgSP8VcBEABCAVwANQCeAWIw3geRVzZXgQ8Q8gGXIJ gHPtGIFJBUAEACATEAVABaDybQeAcmMHMRSQEeAY0LkVcGRvB5EbshEwbAMgfnQc4QeABtAWcRXi GIFU8RSAc3ViBPIeYBYgB3B/C1AXYBEwHLEVwAJgAHBrfRTwLRahAyAD8B3wHeN3AwWwIQBTVUJT Q1K4SUJFGCId8h9BagWQhwVAFHEa0kBiaWcCEL0bwC4b8QqiCoQKgEgXkN8VcBXAIiAR4ASQZhLw HJPKcANgZBJgdGkmER9AtRwSLiU6QhGgFFBBAkAXJJAlOhIhACrAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAAsA AoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAOFAAAAAAAAAwAEgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEIUA AAAAAAADAAqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABShQAA8BMAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABG AAAAAFSFAAABAAAABAAAADguNQALAAyACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAGhQAAAAAAAAMADYAI IAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAWgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA AAADABeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAGYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA ABiFAAAAAAAAHgAogAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAANoUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AKYAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACqACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA4 hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwAygAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAgoUAAAEAAAALADaACyAGAAAA AADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAAiAAAAAAAAAsAOIALIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAAWIAAAAAAAAAgH4 DwEAAAAQAAAAOyh7ixWR0RGyepz/BMEAAAIB+g8BAAAAEAAAADsoe4sVkdERsnqc/wTBAAACAfsP AQAAAFEAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAUFNUUFJYLkRMTAAAAAAAAAAATklUQfm/uAEA qgA32W4AAABDOlxFeGNoYW5nZVxtYWlsYm94LnBzdAAAAAADAP4PBQAAAAMADTT9NwAAAgF/AAEA AAAxAAAAMDAwMDAwMDAzQjI4N0I4QjE1OTFEMTExQjI3QTlDRkYwNEMxMDAwMDA0MUQyNDAwAAAA AF0e ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BEB4ED.36FC3620-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 12 19:10:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07404 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00720 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16102; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:59:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16033 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:59:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mycp.tdsnet.com (buwiusr1-a43.bbw.tds.net [207.1.10.107]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA20565 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:59:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <002501beb526$93c37ec0$6b0a01cf@mycp.tdsnet.com> Reply-To: "Marv Hughes" <@mail.tds.net> From: "Marv Hughes" To: Subject: Natural Fly Control Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:54:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Would like to hear if any of you have any good ways/ideas on how to = control flies in the barn. I have goats and for some reason this year = the fly population in the stable area has gotten out of control. I am = milking the goats and do not want to use pesticides (wouldn't use it = anyway). I'm using a baited fly catcher (a foul smelling solution that = attracts the flies) and it's catching quite a few but I still have far = to many. I know good fly control comes from good farm habits so I = always compost my manure, keep the compost pile a good distance from the = barn, never spead manure directly onto the fields and keep all feed = covered. Don't know what happened and could use suggestions. =20 Thanks =20 Marv Hughes =20 Badger Botanical Farms hughesm@bbw.tds.net ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Would like to hear if any of you = have any good=20 ways/ideas on how to control flies in the barn.  I have goats and = for some=20 reason this year the fly population in the stable area has gotten out of = control.  I am milking the goats and do not want to use pesticides=20 (wouldn't use it anyway).  I'm using a baited fly catcher (a foul = smelling=20 solution that attracts the flies) and it's catching quite a few but I = still have=20 far to many.  I know good fly control comes from good farm habits = so I=20 always compost my manure, keep the compost pile a good distance from the = barn,=20 never spead manure directly onto the fields and keep all feed covered. = Don't=20 know what happened and could use suggestions.    =
     
    Thanks    =
     
    Marv = Hughes   
    Badger Botanical Farms
    hughesm@bbw.tds.net
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 12 19:16:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07458 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01809 for ; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16380; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:05:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16330; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:05:31 -0500 (CDT) From: ThorneBush@aol.com Received: from ThorneBush@aol.com (535) by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dLKPa10019; Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:04:17 EDT Subject: Re: Natural Fly Control To: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org CC: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 Air circulation from fans also helps cut down on flies. Have a friend with milking goats and she is doing the bait and keeping things clean routine but as warmer weather arises the fan help alot as flies detest wind. Thorne From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 05:09:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10995 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24800 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA04708; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 03:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA29875 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:18:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 21687 invoked from network); 13 Jun 1999 05:18:04 -0000 Received: from a48-02-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.84) (216.26.11.84) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 1999 05:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <37633F53.3192@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:19:18 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eliza Lindsay CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: The rest of the story; adjusting PH: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 374 (Eliza - this is in response to your reaction/defense/explanation to SCook21809@aol.com) I try to keep in mind that humans began agriculture (an attempt to control what grows, when and where) 8-10,000 years ago and we still haven't got it right. We cannot consistently produce what we want without screwing up ecosystems. Given that, I want all the diversity of input I can get. It seems to me that diversity in the exchange and development of ideas is just as critical as diversity in other natural systems. It happens that I agree with a lot of what you say, but I want to see the stuff I disagree with too. I may need to see that even more than the stuff I agree with. When my wife and I turned 50 (a month apart) we took the month off, took stock of our first 50 years, and tried to figure out what we wanted to do with the next 50. What we realized was that we know a lot of stuff, and we figure about half of it is wrong. We're spending the second 50 years trying to figure out which half. You all help. Thanks, Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust (We don't know how to grow what we want without screwing up the balance, either, but we're gertting better at it every year.) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 05:13:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA11024 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:13:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25505 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA04832; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:03:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00159 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:28:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 23975 invoked from network); 13 Jun 1999 05:28:56 -0000 Received: from a48-02-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.84) (216.26.11.84) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 1999 05:28:56 -0000 Message-ID: <376341DF.18D5@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:30:11 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Elazar CC: FranksFarm@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: So what is a spader? References: <99Jun11.140933cdt.26900@mint.cwb.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 375 Thanks for the background. I don't know if I said this anywhere, but we used a 5 or 6' spader on a friend's David Brown tractor (it can go REALLY slowly) with fine results. I believe it is about 40 HP (PTO) We rent a 21 HP John Deere 4-wheel drive with hydrostatic transmission to use our 3' spader. We can control the fineness of the bed by controlling the speed we travel - the slower we go the finer the bed surface. If we want to we could leave a powder surface, though we never have. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 05:17:38 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA11044 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA26818 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 05:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA04952; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 04:07:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA00491 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:41:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 26877 invoked from network); 13 Jun 1999 05:41:37 -0000 Received: from a48-02-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.84) (216.26.11.84) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jun 1999 05:41:37 -0000 Message-ID: <376344D7.2900@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 22:42:52 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "W. Bart Hunter" CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: So what is a spader? References: <476a00e.2491109f@aol.com> <37612264.5F2E@teleport.com> <000a01beb443$7ac39880$5aa003d0@tellink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 376 W. Bart Hunter wrote (in part): "I don't have clue as to what a spader is. But I have to question the notion that a 42 HP (horse power) tractor is a valid goal for the small CSA farmer. In fact most tractors I've use have had far less horse power then that. I do agree with the four wheel drive. The problem I see is that most, but certainly not all members this list farm relatively small plots. A medium size tractor, 42 HP does fall into that range, is so large and expensive that it would be out of the question for most growers. I'd say you are looking at $30,000 plus worth of tractor." I recommended 42 HP because that is the low end of the true utility tractors. Smaller tractors don't have enough hydrulic capacity for a good loader, and often don't have hydraulic connections for 3-point impliments or loaders. As I understand it, some of the new 4-wheel drive tractors can do as much with less HP. Great, if you can afford new! We farm on 20 acres, but only work about 5. We paid $13,000 for our used International 464 (42 HP 3-cylinder diesel 2-wheel drive), a great International self mouting loader, a nearly new 5' John Deere tiller with ground wheels, and a tilt trailer big enough to haul the tractor with the loader mounted. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 10:01:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12269 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21781 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA11950; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:50:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09621 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:20:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.46] (pm3shep1-163-46.intrepid.net [209.190.163.46]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23501 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:20:43 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <376341DF.18D5@teleport.com> References: <99Jun11.140933cdt.26900@mint.cwb.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 08:18:56 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: So what is a spader? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 377 Will, how slow do you go? Tortella recommends .3 mph. I don't know of any tractors capable of moving that slowly w/o the addition of a 'creeper kit.' (Here's hoping that you do know of 20 year old 42hp model that WILL pull that slowly! :-) Thanks for your recent posts. -Allan Balliett >Thanks for the background. > >I don't know if I said this anywhere, but we used a 5 or 6' spader on a >friend's David Brown tractor (it can go REALLY slowly) with fine >results. I believe it is about 40 HP (PTO) > >We rent a 21 HP John Deere 4-wheel drive with hydrostatic transmission >to use our 3' spader. We can control the fineness of the bed by >controlling the speed we travel - the slower we go the finer the bed >surface. If we want to we could leave a powder surface, though we never >have. > >Will Newman II >Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 22:51:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19475 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09717 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA15699; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:40:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com (smtp.thestreet.com [208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11134 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:05:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([207.38.252.25]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:49:23 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990613180158.00fc9420@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:02:01 +0000 To: osalt@teleport.com, "W. Bart Hunter" From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: So what is a spader? Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 378 And for our part, we, too, farm about five acres on a 20-acre site. This spring we purchased a 1983 Massey Ferguson 245. It's rated, I believe, at 42 horse. We bought it for $4500. It has lots of hours but the diesel engine is running very strong. And for what it's worth, the power of this workhorse has come into play many times so far. We're very pleased with our decision on this machine (not something I often say about machines!). So a smaller operation can find a machine like this if they spend the time on the road looking, like we did. -- Jeff The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA 98014 At 10:42 PM 6/12/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >W. Bart Hunter wrote (in part): > >"I don't have clue as to what a spader is. But I have to question the >notion that a 42 HP (horse power) tractor is a valid goal for the small >CSA farmer. In fact most tractors I've use have had far less horse power >then that. I do agree with the four wheel drive. The problem I see is >that most, but certainly not all members this list farm relatively small >plots. A medium size tractor, 42 HP does fall into that range, is so >large and expensive that it would be out of the question for most >growers. I'd say you are looking at $30,000 plus worth of tractor." > >I recommended 42 HP because that is the low end of the true utility >tractors. Smaller tractors don't have enough hydrulic capacity for a >good loader, and often don't have hydraulic connections for 3-point >impliments or loaders. As I understand it, some of the new 4-wheel drive >tractors can do as much with less HP. Great, if you can afford new! > >We farm on 20 acres, but only work about 5. > >We paid $13,000 for our used International 464 (42 HP 3-cylinder diesel >2-wheel drive), a great International self mouting loader, a nearly new >5' John Deere tiller with ground wheels, and a tilt trailer big enough >to haul the tractor with the loader mounted. > >Will Newman II >Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 13 22:55:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19523 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10579 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA16007; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:45:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13355 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:55:59 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (3875) by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id dHMBa13485 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 21:53:14 EDT Subject: Re: Natural Fly Control To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 379 Hi Marv, When considering natural fly control my approach is to stop them using a multifaceted method which decreases populations at every stage. Competition, predation and habitat are equally important considerations when dealing with pests. Trapping breeding adults is a great start as is cleaning up litter and hot composting it to kill the larva. An oscillating fan in your barn is also a good idea. If those measures don't decrease your populations to a tolerable level. Then consider buying fly parasitic wasps from an insectary and stretching a large white sticky trap above the barn doorways. The fly parasites are most effective if you have them sent monthly during fly season (between the two frost dates) and spread them in the littering areas and around the compost piles. After a couple of years you will have established a self perpetuating colony of parasites so you can stop buying them. We have several stink baited screened traps as well as the sticky traps to catch the adults. A six inch by 300 foot roll lasts a couple of years and catches as many as the stink bait traps. We also build habitat for barn swallows and bats outside the buildings. Although they seem more interested in mosquitoes and crane flies than filth breeding flies. Their acrobattic flights are always a joy to watch. We still have flies. But they are kept at a tolerable population even though there are great breeding opportunities for them on our farm. There must be a reason for these nuisances. Rather than eliminating them, we just strive for tolerable levels. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 14 08:32:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23390 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16030 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA07627; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:19:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA07552 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:18:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca (ppp13939.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.163.178]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26399 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990614082926.0072e884@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:29:26 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Blasted Potato Beetle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 380 Has anyone every heard of potato beetles eating onions!?!?! They're eating the stalks right off, which is scaring me away from planting any leeks. And what would one do about an infestation, and I mean infestation of cutworms? It has been extremely dry here, which is bringing them to the surface. No irrigation. Help! Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 14 14:28:32 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01246 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21330 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01692; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:07:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.interhop.net (root@mail2.auracom.net [165.154.140.22]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01582 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:06:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dp96.interhop.net (dp96.interhop.net [209.5.48.96]) by mail.interhop.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA04004 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906141806.OAA04004@mail.interhop.net> X-Sender: leppinger@mail.interhop.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Eppinger Subject: Re: Blasted Potato Beetle Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 Never seen a potatoe beetle eat onions ! In fact I believe that onions like garlic repell potatoe beetles. We too have a severe problem with the black cutworm. I have asked for advise everywhere and some of the suggestions that came up were: -pick them by hand during the early morning hours, they should be just below the soil surface near the stem. Look for freshly damages plants and start digging. -Beneficial nematodes (Steiner..) are supposed to work, but depending on where you are they are not able to survive the winter. They are expensive too. We just spent about $ 600 and I can't say it has been worth it. -Bran meal and corn meal sprinkeled around the base of the plants is supposed to make the cutworms eat them, which will make them bloat and die. -diamataceous earth is supposed to help as long as you can get them to ingest it We tried the nematodes and spent a lot of time hand picking the grubs first thing in the morning (on 8 acres). It looks like we have it under control now with less damage happening. But 10 days ago we were loosing entire plantings overnight. What is interesting is that these black cutworms haven't touched the corn, despite it supposedly being one of their favorite foods. The reason might be that we plant corn mixed with oats, to keep the birds from pulling it. Maybe the cutworms are repelled by the oats. In fact they seem to eat everything here but grasses. Let me know if you find out any other method that helps. Lorenz / Switch Farm, Campbellville, Ontario At 08:29 14/06/99 -0700, you wrote: >Has anyone every heard of potato beetles eating onions!?!?! They're eating >the stalks right off, which is scaring me away from planting any leeks. > >And what would one do about an infestation, and I mean infestation of >cutworms? It has been extremely dry here, which is bringing them to the >surface. No irrigation. > >Help! >Hilary > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 14 14:56:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01982 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:56:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28564 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03991; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:37:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03438 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:29:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26887>; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:33:54 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: Eppinger cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Jun14.133354cdt.26887@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:27:33 -0500 Subject: Re: Blasted Potato Beetle (ctr) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 382 You wrote: ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17043 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09978; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:54:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09672 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:51:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:51:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906141951.OAA09672@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 29579 invoked from network); 14 Jun 1999 19:51:46 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as006-32.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as006-119.iquest.net) (209.43.56.32) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 14 Jun 1999 19:51:46 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: osalt@teleport.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: So what is a spader? Cc: "W. Bart Hunter" , csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 383 We looked at tractors for years--waiting until we had the cash and knew for sure what we wanted. I love my Belarus 35 hp. Bought it brand new, custom set up, Memo front loader and all for $11 thousand (including delivery). If you can find a used one--even better. Another $100 bought us an old rolling tine cultivator (big enough for 6 of what we needed. Cut it down and set it up for our 44" rows. Pretty cheap for a new tractor and a cultivator that makes the beds look had weeded. At 10:42 PM 6/12/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >W. Bart Hunter wrote (in part): > >"I don't have clue as to what a spader is. But I have to question the >notion that a 42 HP (horse power) tractor is a valid goal for the small >CSA farmer. In fact most tractors I've use have had far less horse power >then that. I do agree with the four wheel drive. The problem I see is >that most, but certainly not all members this list farm relatively small >plots. A medium size tractor, 42 HP does fall into that range, is so >large and expensive that it would be out of the question for most >growers. I'd say you are looking at $30,000 plus worth of tractor." > >I recommended 42 HP because that is the low end of the true utility >tractors. Smaller tractors don't have enough hydrulic capacity for a >good loader, and often don't have hydraulic connections for 3-point >impliments or loaders. As I understand it, some of the new 4-wheel drive >tractors can do as much with less HP. Great, if you can afford new! > >We farm on 20 acres, but only work about 5. > >We paid $13,000 for our used International 464 (42 HP 3-cylinder diesel >2-wheel drive), a great International self mouting loader, a nearly new >5' John Deere tiller with ground wheels, and a tilt trailer big enough >to haul the tractor with the loader mounted. > >Will Newman II >Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 14 19:58:25 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07007 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21907 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA27445; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:46:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.interhop.net (root@mail2.auracom.net [165.154.140.22]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27365 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:45:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dp19.interhop.net (dp19.interhop.net [209.5.48.19]) by mail.interhop.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA18859 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906142345.TAA18859@mail.interhop.net> X-Sender: leppinger@mail.interhop.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Eppinger Subject: Re: Blasted Potato Beetle (ctr) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 At 13:27 14/06/99 -0500, you wrote: >You wrote: > > >A) so do the birds eat the cutworms? > >B) Or do the birds gorge themselves on the oats & leave the corn? > >C) Or do the cutworms eat the oats & die? > I really don't know what the cutworms do and why it may affect them. As for the birds (crows, they usually pull up the corn as they like to eat the seed. They don't like the oat seed though and seem to try every planting only once. Since the oats usually germinate ahead of the corn, the crows will pull up a few to discover they don't like the oats and leave the plot alone afterwards. It really works, we used to loose entire plantings to the crows, tried fishing line which didn't help until somebody suggested the oats thing. To this point I have been mixing the oat and corn seed and seeding them together, which means that we are often left to handweed the oats later on. Next year I'll experiment with planting corn with a row of oats inbetween. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 13:41:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22623 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20785 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20136; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web808.mail.yahoo.com (web808.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20016 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:28:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990615173201.9982.rocketmail@web808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.202.222.114] by web808.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:32:01 PDT Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:32:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Re: So what is a spader? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 385 I have been seeing this question alot, and I feel that I should let people know about a book that's put out by the Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN) called, "Steel in the Field: A Farmers Guide to Weed Management Tools". It was published in 1997 and is available through SAN. I work for SAN, but I also interested in developing my own CSA in the next couple of years. I have heard great reviews by those who are familiar with farm machinery and those who aren't at conferences around the country. It has lots of pictures and lots of information on topics like "how to comply with erosion-prevention plans, how to remain profitable and how to manage residue and moisture loss." For more information about the book, go to http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/pubs/ This book is a must for anyone looking to reduce or replace pesticide inputs. Index, contact list, detailed illustrations and tool source list included. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 14:34:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23833 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02109 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA24357; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:23:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24295 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:23:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-112.premier1.net [207.149.54.112]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id LAA24340 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199906151820.LAA24340@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 06:24:31 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Natural Fly Control Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 386 > Reply-to: "Marv Hughes" <@mail.tds.net> > From: "Marv Hughes" > To: > Subject: Natural Fly Control > Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:54:40 -0500 > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Would like to hear if any of you have any good ways/ideas on how to = > control flies in the barn. I have goats and for some reason this year = > the fly population in the stable area has gotten out of control. I am = > milking the goats and do not want to use pesticides (wouldn't use it = > anyway). I'm using a baited fly catcher (a foul smelling solution that = > attracts the flies) and it's catching quite a few but I still have far = > to many. I know good fly control comes from good farm habits so I = > always compost my manure, keep the compost pile a good distance from the = > barn, never spead manure directly onto the fields and keep all feed = > covered. Don't know what happened and could use suggestions. =20 > > Thanks =20 > > Marv Hughes =20 > Badger Botanical Farms > hughesm@bbw.tds.net > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
    Would like to hear if any of you = > have any good=20 > ways/ideas on how to control flies in the barn.  I have goats and = > for some=20 > reason this year the fly population in the stable area has gotten out of = > > control.  I am milking the goats and do not want to use pesticides=20 > (wouldn't use it anyway).  I'm using a baited fly catcher (a foul = > smelling=20 > solution that attracts the flies) and it's catching quite a few but I = > still have=20 > far to many.  I know good fly control comes from good farm habits = > so I=20 > always compost my manure, keep the compost pile a good distance from the = > barn,=20 > never spead manure directly onto the fields and keep all feed covered. = > Don't=20 > know what happened and could use suggestions.    = >
    >
     
    >
    Thanks    = >
    >
     
    >
    Marv = > Hughes   
    >
    Badger Botanical Farms
    >
    href=3D"mailto:hughesm@bbw.tds.net">hughesm@bbw.tds.net
    >
     
    > > ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BEB4FC.A509E540-- > > Hi Mary, Try some parasitics. Those guys love flie larvae. I don't know where you are so I don't know if these people are close or not, but I think they ship all over the country. Rincon-Vivota Insectary, Inc. 1-800-248-2847 bugnet@rinconvitova.com Good luck Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation Wa From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 15:57:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26340 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21857 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29854; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:42:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29785; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:41:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com (8047) by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id tYBAa24282; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4ae69b23.24980624@aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:40:20 EDT Subject: Re: Natural Fly Control To: mjb@premier1.net, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 387 A lot of our certified organic dairies in PA have had good luck with the wide sticky tape you put up inside your barn. Most ag supply stores carry it. Also, you can make a trap with feed sacks that your animals walk through when they come into the barn. The flies get brushed off and stay outside. Leslie Zuck PA Certified Organic From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 17:35:14 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28891 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14965 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07942; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:24:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07805 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:23:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 12060 invoked from network); 15 Jun 1999 21:23:18 -0000 Received: from i48-42-40.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.63.40) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 21:23:18 -0000 Message-ID: <005601beb774$e1879100$e23d1ad8@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: Questions about Tee tape and lay flat lines. Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:19:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 388 We are in the process of installing a drip system with a buried main line, layflat hose as the header and tee tape coming off the layflat. Our question is what does one do with the tee tape and layflat when a bed or beds needs to be tilled. The irrigation sales fellow said it was not a good idea to run over the layflat. So does one rip the hole thing out to prepare a bed? Do you lay ply wood down? Any Ideas are greatly appreciated John and Andrea Kings Valley Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 21:08:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00835 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24803 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21376; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:57:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21328 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:57:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 1773 invoked from network); 16 Jun 1999 00:57:01 -0000 Received: from i48-16-41.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.233) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 1999 00:57:01 -0000 Message-ID: <000b01beb792$bc72c920$e9051ad8@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: test Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:54:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 389 test From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 15 21:11:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00922 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22193 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 20:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20063; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:36:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20000 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:35:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 3058 invoked from network); 16 Jun 1999 00:35:36 -0000 Received: from i48-16-41.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.233) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 16 Jun 1999 00:35:36 -0000 Message-ID: <000301beb78f$bea2cfe0$e9051ad8@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: Tee tape and layflat hose Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 17:32:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 390 We are in the process of installing a drip system with a buried main line, layflat hose as the header and tee tape coming off the layflat. Our question is what does one do with the tee tape and layflat when a bed or beds needs to be tilled. The irrigation sales fellow said it was not a good idea to run over the layflat. So does one rip the hole thing out to prepare a bed? Do you lay ply wood down? Any Ideas are greatly appreciated John and Andrea Kings Valley Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 07:20:50 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05721 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26445 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA28494; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:09:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28317 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:03:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.50] (pm3shep2-163-98.intrepid.net [209.190.163.98]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA13167 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:03:09 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:05:43 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: OFF: Pricing Specialty Crops Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 391 (This is the sort of thing that drives me nuts!:-) Does anyone have experience pricing GARLIC SCAPES for restaurant or farm market sales? And, do you happen to know the 'standard' for 'age' and what not? Incidentally, is there a farmer's market discussion list 'out there'? Or one that focuses on 'specialty crops'? Thanks so much for your time! -Allan Balliett igg@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 09:13:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08761 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14773 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA03153; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:02:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02764 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:56:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-1.raex.com [216.196.24.1]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA00467 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002101beb989$b2f34ca0$0f18c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: re: Pricing Specialty Crops Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:54:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 392 I have a sad feeling that the word scapes refers to the imature garlic blossoms that we always call bubels here. The sad part is that we have never viewed them as a product and there is 100# of them on the compost right now. But I just had a thought, maybe scapes are the "green onion" stage from seed the first year, the predominant weed in our gardens right now. Those green onion size garlics our garlic grower friends bundle up in a rubber band just like green onions and sell them for a similar price. I too will be glad to hear any enlightening thing anyone has to say about this subject. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 11:22:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11373 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17924 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11621; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:58:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11526 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:57:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906181457.JAA11526@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 299509652; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:57:31 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "carol busson" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: Pricing Specialty Crops Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:29:08 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 393 We call them bulbils here, but have heard scape used to describe the "heads" we get on hard neck garlic of certain types. Our chef/member loves them and uses them, deepfried, as a garnish that noone can figure out when it shows up on their plate...Since we clip them off to increase garlic bulb size, and since they grow so very slowly if planted, we simply give them to our chef/member as a freebee. Which he very much appreciates. It is one of the things that keeps him coming back. To sell them I would suggest a high price, perhaps higher than organic garlic. It is a special thing and not available from the wholesaler that supplies the restaurant. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: carol busson > To: CSA list > Subject: re: Pricing Specialty Crops > Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 8:54 AM > > I have a sad feeling that the word scapes refers to the imature garlic > blossoms that we always call bubels here. The sad part is that we have > never viewed them as a product and there is 100# of them on the compost > right now. But I just had a thought, maybe scapes are the "green onion" > stage from seed the first year, the predominant weed in our gardens right > now. Those green onion size garlics our garlic grower friends bundle up in > a rubber band just like green onions and sell them for a similar price. I > too will be glad to hear any enlightening thing anyone has to say about this > subject. > > Carol Busson > Dragonfly Farm > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 11:35:34 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11664 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20964 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13232; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:22:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13179 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:22:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26886>; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:28:10 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" cc: "carol busson" , "CSA list" Message-Id: <99Jun18.102810cdt.26886@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:20:32 -0500 Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 I use them as seed garlic (the green onion things that come up). The hard neck garlic that they produce tends to have fewer but larger cloves. I didn't know that you could clip them off without hurting the garlic bulb tho... What stage do you do that at? When its a blossom; before the blossom emerges; when the bulblets form? ...And what do you deepfry? The bulblets; the green onions that they make; the looped blossom? "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" on 06/18/99 09:29:08 AM To: "carol busson" , "CSA list" cc: Subject: Re: Pricing Specialty Crops We call them bulbils here, but have heard scape used to describe the "heads" we get on hard neck garlic of certain types. Our chef/member loves them and uses them, deepfried, as a garnish that noone can figure out when it shows up on their plate...Since we clip them off to increase garlic bulb size, and since they grow so very slowly if planted, we simply give them to our chef/member as a freebee. Which he very much appreciates. It is one of the things that keeps him coming back. To sell them I would suggest a high price, perhaps higher than organic garlic. It is a special thing and not available from the wholesaler that supplies the restaurant. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: carol busson > To: CSA list > Subject: re: Pricing Specialty Crops > Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 8:54 AM > > I have a sad feeling that the word scapes refers to the imature garlic > blossoms that we always call bubels here. The sad part is that we have > never viewed them as a product and there is 100# of them on the compost > right now. But I just had a thought, maybe scapes are the "green onion" > stage from seed the first year, the predominant weed in our gardens right > now. Those green onion size garlics our garlic grower friends bundle up in > a rubber band just like green onions and sell them for a similar price. I > too will be glad to hear any enlightening thing anyone has to say about this > subject. > > Carol Busson > Dragonfly Farm > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 11:48:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11921 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25109 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14375; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:37:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14313 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:37:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.8.149.216] [209.8.149.209] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.04) id A8C31572011A; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:41:55 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <99Jun18.102810cdt.26886@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:38:41 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 395 Our shareholders love them. They take a little explaining and a sexier name than 'scapes' We tell them they are 'garlic flowers' or just 'garlic tops'. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 12:46:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13487 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08471 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:36:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17539; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:30:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17314 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:27:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EDEK68EJ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:26:22 EDT To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:30:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) Message-ID: <19990618.093006.-196861.0.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-13,17-18,20-23,25-31 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 396 Out here in Oregon I believe what you are talking about is called "garlic spears" and are marketed as a specialty food item throughout this time of year. They appear in approx 1# bunches in our natural foods chain Natures (owned by Wild Oats) from a farm near the coast and sell for close to $4/#. The farm attaches a description of them as being similar to asparagus crossed with garlic and recommends they be steamed or sauteed and used as a side dish or addition to stir fries, pasta dishes, or anywhere that green garlic might be used. The bunches have 15-25 spears with unopened flower buds and are quite tasty. I used some myself just last week in a pasta with baby artichokes, baby carrots (thinnings from the farm), green onion, olives and walnuts tossed with pasta shells, olive oil, and balsalmic vinegar and served cold. very tasty, and the spears add a distinctive crunch and flavor. They seem like a emminantly useable product that people should be passing on to their subscribers or specialty buyers and valuing highly. The Oregonian had an article in its food section about them and the raves chefs have for them in this region. have a great farm day. I will specnd it at my other job, keeping the corporate organic produce looking fantastic at Wild Oats. michael On Fri, 18 Jun 1999 11:38:41 -0400 Leigh Hauter writes: >Our shareholders love them. They take a little explaining and a >sexier >name than 'scapes' We tell them they are 'garlic flowers' or just >'garlic >tops'. > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 18:10:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22235 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16406 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA10038; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:59:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09954 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from batty.excite.com ([199.172.152.107]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990618215811.TAID1890.ewey@batty.excite.com> for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:58:11 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) Message-Id: <929743091.29372.717@excite.com> Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:58:11 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 397 I love garlic scsapes and have been pickling them with a bit of curry for a couple of years. This is the first year we have had enuff to sell but no takers here locally so I have been giving them to the CSA members woth instructions to use them sauteed, pickled, in salads, stir fries etc. A Chef i deal with knows then as Garlic Chives. I have priced mine at $2lb or $11 a bushel but have yet to sell any ( I have given away several pounds to anyone who seems interested.) Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 18:38:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22721 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21167 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:29:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11645; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:28:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11593 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:28:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fox.gamewood.net (0@fox.gamewood.net [206.229.248.28]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10392 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:27:31 -0400 Received: from pavilion (pts0105.gamewood.net [206.229.249.36]) by fox.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27708 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:27:30 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01beb9f3$9cd8d4c0$24f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Scapes/bubils Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:32:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEB9B8.EFA8F120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 398 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEB9B8.EFA8F120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, maybe I'm not the only one with this question by now, BUT WHAT ARE = GARLIC SCAPES/BULBILS???? Seems that we have several different people = talking about different things with the same name. I have Garlic chives in my herb gardens, and they are completely = different from garlic, they look and grow just like common chives only = they have flat leaves instead of hollow leaves like the common chives. Are we talking about the curled flower stem that I pick off the garlic = plants (to increase bulb growth)? Never having let the flower buds stay = on my garlic plants, forgive my ignorance, are we talking about planting = the top part and getting a result like scallions? Regretfully Ignorant, Amy Johnson Long Island VA akjedj@gamewood.net ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEB9B8.EFA8F120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    OK, maybe I'm not the only one with this question by = now, BUT=20 WHAT ARE GARLIC SCAPES/BULBILS???? Seems that we have several different = people=20 talking about different things with the same name.
     
    <A Chef
    i deal with knows then as Garlic=20 Chives.>
     
    I have Garlic chives in my herb gardens, and they = are=20 completely different from garlic, they look and grow just like common = chives=20 only they have flat leaves instead of hollow leaves like the common=20 chives.
     
    Are we talking about the curled flower stem that I = pick off=20 the garlic plants (to increase bulb growth)? Never having let the flower = buds=20 stay on my garlic plants, forgive my ignorance, are we talking about = planting=20 the top part and getting a result like scallions?
     
    Regretfully Ignorant,
    Amy Johnson
    Long Island VA
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BEB9B8.EFA8F120-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 19:12:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23219 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27186 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA13477; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:01:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13421 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:01:00 -0500 (CDT) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com (303) by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id iCWHa24589; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:59:42 EDT Subject: Re: Scapes/bubils To: akjedj@gamewood.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 399 We sell the scapes for $2/pound. The customers love them, (after a little training!). Linda Homestead Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 18 21:18:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25128 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18743 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA20455; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:08:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA20372 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:07:28 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com (14376) by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id oZIBa01897; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:06:15 EDT Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) To: brike1@juno.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 400 We snap off the elephant garlic tops with stems, bundle with a rubber band, for our subscribers. Those who had them last year grabbed them up. The new folks went huh? I was told not to do it with the real stiff neck garlic, they need the tops for better bulb production. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 19 10:06:08 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00910 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05688 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16486; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:55:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16422 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.110] (pm3shep3-163-135.intrepid.net [209.190.163.135]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00316 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:54:12 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 09:47:33 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Scapes/Bulbils what to do with (was Pricing Specialty Crops) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 401 >I was told not to do it with the real stiff neck garlic, >they need the tops for better bulb production. Actually, I was told just the opposite...but I can't find me 'Growing...Garlic" book right now. -Allan From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 19 11:44:09 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01864 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18874 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19935; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19876 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:32:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27102 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1999 15:32:53 -0000 Received: from a48-01-22.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.22) (216.26.11.22) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 1999 15:32:53 -0000 Message-ID: <376BB879.3495@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:34:20 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: OFF: Pricing Specialty Crops References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 402 On the West Coast we usually go by the daily organic market price list (I think it comes out of the San Francisco Bay Area). The local restaurants (Portland/Salem Oregon) which buy organic seem to have access to this list - probably from the Internet. There is also a current price list available from an Oregon based organic distributor (Orgnically Grown Co-op - OGC - Ladybug Brand). These are the base to start with. Often local growers get a premium (local, fresher, no shippng charges for the buyer, etc.) It helps to know where you are (geographically) to answer questions like this. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 19 12:00:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01976 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20992 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA20601; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:49:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA20553 for ; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 10:49:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 230 invoked from network); 19 Jun 1999 15:48:58 -0000 Received: from a48-01-22.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.22) (216.26.11.22) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 1999 15:48:58 -0000 Message-ID: <376BBC40.1FEB@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:50:27 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amy and Eric Johnson CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Scapes/bubils References: <000c01beb9f3$9cd8d4c0$24f9e5ce@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 403 Amy Johnson wrote:"...Regretfully Ignorant" We're all ignorant. We each specialize in our own areas of ignorance. The trick is knowing what areas you have achieved ignorance in. I have been speaking in public for many years. I am often introduced an an "expert" in one field or another. It has always made me uncomfortable, and I have often said so. As a result, I have been given many definitions for "expert": a has-been drip under pressure (ex-spurt), anyone more than 20 miles from home with slides, etc. After a half-day presentation to Master Gardeners I was finally given the definition I am comfortable with: "An expert is someone who has made a great number of mistakes in a very narrow field." I am an expert in a number of fields! So, probably, are you. Will Newman II Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 20 08:47:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13254 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:47:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26918 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 08:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01662; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:36:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01610 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 07:36:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ants.excite.com ([199.172.152.146]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990620123538.XEAK1825.kuku@ants.excite.com>; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:35:38 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Amy and Eric Johnson" , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Scapes/bubils Message-Id: <929882138.5178.545@excite.com> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 05:35:38 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.103 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 404 Amy, you are correct that garlic chives are true chives, it's just that I do work with a chef that calls the scapes garlic chives. Yes we are talking about the flower stalk on the garlic plants. BTW I was successful selling several pounds in Indiana yesterday at a farmer's Market. No one knew what they were but several adventerous souls bought ours for $2.00lb. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 20 10:36:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13999 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12269 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05255; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:26:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05214 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:25:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fox.gamewood.net (0@fox.gamewood.net [206.229.248.28]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01440 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:24:49 -0400 Received: from pavilion (pts0306.gamewood.net [206.229.249.69]) by fox.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15588 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:24:48 -0400 Message-ID: <001201bebb42$82f3bd40$45f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: scapes Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:29:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEBB07.D5CB7AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 405 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEBB07.D5CB7AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I guess I'd better stop putting those scapes on the compost pile = after I pull them off my garlic! :) Thanks for informing me of better = uses for them! Amy Johnson Long Island VA ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEBB07.D5CB7AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Well, I guess I'd better stop putting those scapes = on the=20 compost pile after I pull them off my garlic! :) Thanks for informing me = of=20 better uses for them!
     
    Amy Johnson
    Long Island VA
    ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01BEBB07.D5CB7AC0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 20 16:45:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17664 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02460 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19631; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:34:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net [199.45.39.157]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19574 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:34:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [151.196.126.35] (client196-126-35.bellatlantic.net [151.196.126.35]) by smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA23499 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199906202037.QAA23499@smtp-out2.bellatlantic.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:18:45 -0500 Subject: CSA - numbers increasing From: "Steven McFadden" To: "CSA-L" Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 406 Hi, Here's an item from today's Boston Sunday Globe - page 85 -- that sheds some light on the burgeoning number of CSAs in the country -- an issue discussed from time to time on this list. I estimate as many as 1,500 CSAs in the US this season -- but am often told my estimate it too high. Naturally, without a national data base no one knows for sure. But after reading this gbreif news item, i wonder if my estimate is low. - Steven McFadden "LAZY MAN'S LETTUCE - instead of revving up the rototiller, hundreds of new Englanders are becoming 'shareholders', paying farmers up from for fresh produce all summer. More than 100 Community Supported Agriculture programs have sprouted in Massachusetts. Ag Commissioner Jay Healy has put his land where his mouth is, leasing out part of his family farm in Charelmont, MA, to a CSA with 50 members. Healy declined to commend on whether the movement could lead to a dreaded zucchini shortage this summer." From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 20 21:27:30 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20336 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12832 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA00732; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:16:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00651 for ; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:15:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA14693; Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:11:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2b-81.ix.netcom.com(209.110.253.81) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014663; Sun Jun 20 20:11:33 1999 Message-ID: <001c01bebb82$86a5ada0$51fd6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Steven McFadden" , "CSA-L" Subject: Re: CSA - numbers increasing Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:08:06 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 Hi from one of those 100? Massachusetts CSAs. Green Hill Farm of Shrewsbury, Ma. We just attended as exhibitors the 4th annual Massachusetts Market Place this pass week-end. Jay Healy was there. We had signed up to promote our CSA and then about 2 weeks after sending in my non refundable admission fee we sold out our membership. So we went actually it was fun, no pressure since we were sold out got to promote CSA in general, got ourselves quoted in the Worcester, Ma paper, won a basket in a raffle, and came home with 5 free chicken from another exhibitor. Plus did get a local family who wants to sign up next year because they saw the newspaper article. The Massachusetts Dept of Ag is very helpful(they gave up two free signs Massachusetts Grown and Fresher) and is compiling a CSA list. Was the Boston Globe Article talking about the above Market Place? Beth -----Original Message----- From: Steven McFadden To: CSA-L Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 4:34 PM Subject: CSA - numbers increasing >Hi, >Here's an item from today's Boston Sunday Globe - page 85 -- that sheds some >light on the burgeoning number of CSAs in the country -- an issue discussed >from time to time on this list. > >I estimate as many as 1,500 CSAs in the US this season -- but am often told >my estimate it too high. Naturally, without a national data base no one >knows for sure. But after reading this gbreif news item, i wonder if my >estimate is low. > >- Steven McFadden > >"LAZY MAN'S LETTUCE - instead of revving up the rototiller, hundreds of new >Englanders are becoming 'shareholders', paying farmers up from for fresh >produce all summer. More than 100 Community Supported Agriculture programs >have sprouted in Massachusetts. Ag Commissioner Jay Healy has put his land >where his mouth is, leasing out part of his family farm in Charelmont, MA, >to a CSA with 50 members. Healy declined to commend on whether the movement >could lead to a dreaded zucchini shortage this summer." > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 22 11:39:43 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24988 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11379 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA00524; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:24:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp4.mindspring.com (smtp4.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00375 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:22:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ms121960 (user-2ive39n.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.13.55]) by smtp4.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA10060 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001b01bebcc3$09835880$370df7a5@ms121960> From: "Sarah Milstein" To: "csa-l" Subject: Intern Wanted Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:22:26 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 408 Hello, CSA-listers. Roxbury Farm CSA is in need of an intern. I'd like to have the message below posted to SANET, but I don't subscribe to that list anymore. Could somebody who's on SANET post this message there? Btw, replies to the ad should go to roxbury@mhonline.net, *not* to me! Many thanks. Sarah Milstein ___________________________________________________ From: Jean-Paul Courtens and Sarah Shapiro >Intern Wanted >Roxbury Farm > > There is still one apprenticeship available at Roxbury Farm. Roxbury >offers opportunities to be involved in all aspects of production on a >well established, financially successful, mechanized farm, and to work >with and learn from a farmer with 20 years of growing experience and a >commitment to teaching. Several former apprentices have gone on to >start their own farms. > > Roxbury Farm is a 190-acre biodynamic farm near Hudson, NY with 25 >acres in vegetable production for a Community Supported Agriculture >(CSA) membership of 675 shareholders located in Manhattan, Albany, and >Columbia County, NY. Livestock provides for a portion of the farm's >fertility needs and supplies meat to our members. The farm has been >operated from its inception in 1990 by Jean-Paul Courtens, who is joined >in 1999 by Sarah Shapiro. > > Interns interact with the local farm community through our >participation in the Collaborative Regional Alliance for Farmer Training >(CRAFT) program, a six month program in which interns visit twelve >organic and biodynamic farms in the region. > > Roxbury Farm provides on-farm housing with a full kitchen and washing >machine, all farm food crops, a food purchasing budget, a $300/month >stipend, and Workers Compensation, for three interns during the growing >season. > > People with a strong interest and worth ethic should contact: Jean-Paul >Courtens or Sarah Shapiro at 518-851-2056, 518-851-3809, or write to us >at roxbury@mhonline.net or 81 Roxbury Road, Hudson, NY 12534 ASAP! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jun 23 18:47:02 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29290 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13458 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA26124; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:35:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25999 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:33:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-202.raex.com [216.196.24.202]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA02535 for ; Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <004001bebdc8$30790920$d219c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: t-tape distributor Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:31:44 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 409 Hi folks, I would like to buy some t-tape for about an acre of squash. I have a catalog for Dripworks but wish I could find someone to buy it from who is not on the other side of the country from me. Does anyone know of a distributor near Ohio? I have the name of a place called Zimmerman Irrigation in PA but I don't know their phone number. I would be grateful for any names and numbers of irrigation supplies in this part of the world. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 24 01:45:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05625 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27361 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 01:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20823; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:34:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA20744 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:33:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 6798 invoked from network); 24 Jun 1999 05:33:25 -0000 Received: from i48-41-44.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.62.236) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Jun 1999 05:33:25 -0000 Message-ID: <000b01bebe02$a4e16700$ec3e1ad8@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: Where is a good place to get cellophane bags ? Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:30:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 410 We are in mid western Oregon and were wondering if anyone knows a good source of large cellophane bags (6 x 9 and larger), and cellophane sleevesfor flowers? Who has the best prices and service? Thanks! John and Andrea Kings Valley Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jun 24 10:24:10 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11576 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21599 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10456; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:12:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10368 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:12:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA20349 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:11:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-128.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.128) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020240; Thu Jun 24 09:10:51 1999 Message-ID: <002401bebe4a$e1d76680$80f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "csa csa" Subject: Wholesale baskets Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:07:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 411 Hi CSA group, We are looking for a wholesaler for baskets. Ordinary farm baskets not heavy gitt baskets. Last years supplier is out and won't have any for about a month. Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jun 25 00:49:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00635 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA29260 for ; Fri, 25 Jun 1999 00:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08251; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:38:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA07976 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:32:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 6978 invoked from network); 25 Jun 1999 04:32:10 -0000 Received: from i48-14-04.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.68) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Jun 1999 04:32:10 -0000 Message-ID: <000901bebec3$3fc61980$44051ad8@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "csa csa" Subject: t-tape and water filters Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:29:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 412 I have a question about using t-tape and river water but some background first. We just installed a drip system using t-tape for the final delivery. We also installed a 100 micron filter (the type with plastic disks stacked ontop of each other) to filter the river water. Even though the water looks fairly clean, the filter clogs and reduces the water pressure after 6 hrs of usage. What micron size should we be using? How big in microns are the holes in the t-tape? Do people use pre filters and if so what type? Thanks! John & Andrea Kings Valley Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jun 26 20:26:40 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01285 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA19016 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA03830; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:15:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from frontiernet.net (node9.frontiernet.net [209.130.129.194]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03583 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:09:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from f2d2d1 (209-130-218-235.nas-1.roc.frontiernet.net [209.130.218.235]) by frontiernet.net (8.8.8a/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA51044 for ; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:09:07 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:08:55 -0400 Message-ID: <01BEC00F.B810BE20.scassdon@frontiernet.net> From: Sarah Cass Donaldson To: "csa-l@prairienet.org" Subject: unsubscribe Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:01:52 -0400 Organization: Council Rock Consulting X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Encoding: 1 TEXT Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 413 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 27 08:05:46 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08229 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA00624 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24629; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 06:54:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24570 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 06:54:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.153] (pm3shep1-163-42.intrepid.net [209.190.163.42]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA18781 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:54:05 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:57:01 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: "Holding" produce Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 414 Howdy! As the summer squash and cukes start coming on, it's pretty clear that a lot of stuff will be too old or too big by distribution days. Is it 'fair' to pick cukes and zuchinni in advance and hold them for distribution day? I understand that cukes will keep well wrapped in plastic film and kept in the crisper. What's the standard way to 'hold' summer squash so they are as 'fresh' as possible come Thursday? Thanks -Allan Charles Town, WV From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 27 08:31:27 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08449 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03727 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA25378; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:17:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25330 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 07:17:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990627121628.BGCJ29887.fortune@flash.excite.com> for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 05:16:28 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: "Holding" produce Message-Id: <930485788.17731.3@excite.com> Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 05:16:28 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.72 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 415 I see no problem with your idea. Ideally we should pick the same day of pick-up but not many people want a 15lb zuke ( though if you have brits in your CSA they treasure such things and call them marrows-we got rid of many an oversized zuke to our british members last year). At our farm we have several picking days each week to insure that the squashes don't get over sized and everything is under 48hrs old at time of sale/distribution. We pick for the CSA either Wed. or Thursday morning for a Thursday pm pick-up. We also sell at 3 to 4 farmer's markets each week so we pick 4 times a week and it is rare that anything lasts on the plant long enough to get big. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 27 09:24:21 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08828 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10974 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27114; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:13:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26982 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:10:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.153] (pm3shep1-163-57.intrepid.net [209.190.163.57]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24987 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:10:24 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <930485788.17731.3@excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:12:37 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: "Holding" produce Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 416 Thanks for the encouragement, Lucy, Now if someone could confirm the 'how'! ;-) This year we have no market as an outlet and we have only one distribution day for the CSA. Half of our shareholders are delivered to. -Allan Balliett Charles Town, WV >I see no problem with your idea. Ideally we should pick the same day of >pick-up but not many people want a 15lb zuke ( though if you have brits in >your CSA they treasure such things and call them marrows-we got rid of many >an oversized zuke to our british members last year). At our farm we have >several picking days each week to insure that the squashes don't get over >sized and everything is under 48hrs old at time of sale/distribution. We >pick for the CSA either Wed. or Thursday morning for a Thursday pm pick-up. >We also sell at 3 to 4 farmer's markets each week so we pick 4 times a week >and it is rare that anything lasts on the plant long enough to get big. > Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 27 10:08:50 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09458 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21535 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28535; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:57:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28478 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:57:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:57:37 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906271357.IAA28478@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 17838 invoked from network); 27 Jun 1999 13:57:30 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as002-139.iquest.net (209.43.49.139) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Jun 1999 13:57:30 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Allan Balliett From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: "Holding" produce Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 I "hold" cukes and zukes as need be for CSA, farmers markets and wholesale (as well as my own pickling which is over 100 quarts a year), and they do fine IF we: Pick them at their prime--not too old, not too young unless you are doing "babies." Wash in plenty of cool water--gently. I use a soft cloth on cukes, just rinse off the summer squash. Eat or discard anything with bruises, holes, or that you inadvertantly damage. Place them loosely and GENTLY into a large plastic container or box and refrigerate or put into a cooler with ice--replace ice when needed (don't let the ice touch the food!) and do NOT handle the boxes roughly. Their shelf life will be great this way. One bruise and the whole box becomes slime very quickly. For CSA I like to keep a 5 gallon pickle crock or 2 going--any small or even deformed cukes can be made into pickles and my CSA'ers, kids, grandkids and friends all head for the pickles the minute they get here. If we are lucky we have pickles from the previous year to share until the new ones are ready. (Though my interns found that stash this year and they are already gone!) There are no really good commercial organic pickles that I can find--certainly nothing that beats home made. If I had a commercial kitchen... If you need pickle recipes just ask, but good basic recipes are in the Ball Bluebook. The Biodynamic folks make some great pickles too. I like to add more of this or that--garlic, hot peppers, pickling spices... Summer squash can be pickled too. Once any of them are past their prime, they can be made into bread and butter pickles with great results. Although sweet pickles are not my favorite, my people like them on peanut butter sandwiches, grilled cheese, and in potato salads and such. For that matter, almost any veggie can be pickled or made into a relish. It's a great way to preserve them and really not much work. Overgrown zukes make great bread, patties and muffins. We are always teaching our customers how to use things up. Chocolate zucchini bread, Zucchini corn muffins,...you can hide the stuff in almost anything! At 09:12 AM 6/27/99 -0500, Allan Balliett wrote: >Thanks for the encouragement, Lucy, Now if someone could confirm the 'how'! ;-) > >This year we have no market as an outlet and we have only one distribution >day for the CSA. Half of our shareholders are delivered to. > >-Allan Balliett >Charles Town, WV > > >>I see no problem with your idea. Ideally we should pick the same day of >>pick-up but not many people want a 15lb zuke ( though if you have brits in >>your CSA they treasure such things and call them marrows-we got rid of many >>an oversized zuke to our british members last year). At our farm we have >>several picking days each week to insure that the squashes don't get over >>sized and everything is under 48hrs old at time of sale/distribution. We >>pick for the CSA either Wed. or Thursday morning for a Thursday pm pick-up. >>We also sell at 3 to 4 farmer's markets each week so we pick 4 times a week >>and it is rare that anything lasts on the plant long enough to get big. >> Lucy Goodman-Owsley >>Boulder Belt CSA >>New Paris, OH >>http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________________ >>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jun 27 10:57:54 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09940 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00226 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA00175; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:46:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA00133 for ; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:46:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA23307; Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:45:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-41.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.41) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023302; Sun Jun 27 09:45:23 1999 Message-ID: <002801bec0ab$36ae8460$29fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Allan Balliett" , "Cecilia Bowman" Cc: Subject: "Holding" produce and pickles Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:41:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 418 Ok! You've tempted us what is your recipe for pickles that are so good your interns ate them all :). I make a half sour pickle that we are very fond of, but I am always looking for more recipes. I two made relish last year, I mean what does one do when frost is looming around the corner and you have rows and rows of green tomatoes ( I will post that recipe if interested). A bit of a twist on zuccini bread: find a standard carrot cake recipe one that includes pineaple and substutite 1/2 zuc and carrot its good. Beth pickles and my CSA'ers, kids, grandkids and >friends all head for the pickles the minute they get here. If we are lucky >we have pickles from the previous year to share until the new ones are >ready. (Though my interns found that stash this year and they are already >gone!) There are no really good commercial organic pickles that I can >find--certainly nothing that beats home made. If I had a commercial kitchen... > >If you need pickle recipes just ask, but good basic recipes are in the Ball >Bluebook. The Biodynamic folks make some great pickles too. > >I like to add more of this or that--garlic, hot peppers, pickling spices... >Summer squash can be pickled too. Once any of them are past their prime, >they can be made into bread and butter pickles with great results. Although >sweet pickles are not my favorite, my people like them on peanut butter >sandwiches, grilled cheese, and in potato salads and such. > >For that matter, almost any veggie can be pickled or made into a relish. >It's a great way to preserve them and really not much work. > >Overgrown zukes make great bread, patties and muffins. We are always >teaching our customers how to use things up. Chocolate zucchini bread, >Zucchini corn muffins,...you can hide the stuff in almost anything! > >At 09:12 AM 6/27/99 -0500, Allan Balliett wrote: >>Thanks for the encouragement, Lucy, Now if someone could confirm the 'how'! ;-) >> >>This year we have no market as an outlet and we have only one distribution >>day for the CSA. Half of our shareholders are delivered to. >> >>-Allan Balliett >>Charles Town, WV >> >> >>>I see no problem with your idea. Ideally we should pick the same day of >>>pick-up but not many people want a 15lb zuke ( though if you have brits in >>>your CSA they treasure such things and call them marrows-we got rid of many >>>an oversized zuke to our british members last year). At our farm we have >>>several picking days each week to insure that the squashes don't get over >>>sized and everything is under 48hrs old at time of sale/distribution. We >>>pick for the CSA either Wed. or Thursday morning for a Thursday pm pick-up. >>>We also sell at 3 to 4 farmer's markets each week so we pick 4 times a week >>>and it is rare that anything lasts on the plant long enough to get big. >>> Lucy Goodman-Owsley >>>Boulder Belt CSA >>>New Paris, OH >>>http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________________ >>>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ >> >> >> >> >Cissy Bowman, >President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >8364 S SR 39 >Clayton, IN 46118 >317-539-4317 >cvof@iquest.net > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 28 03:19:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA24803 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA06263 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA15765; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:02:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA15706 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:01:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25017 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1999 07:01:08 -0000 Received: from a48-01-48.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.48) (216.26.11.48) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 07:01:08 -0000 Message-ID: <37771E1B.60BE@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:02:55 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: "Holding" produce References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 419 We pick 5 days a week. We have a walk-in cooler, which is handy for holding some stuff, but we like to get things like cucumber and zucchini delivered within a day or two of picking. That's one of the reasons we went to two pickup days (before we started delivering). Another advantage ws that it cut down on disruptions from Harvest Shareholders who, when coming to pick up their harvest shares, wanted to wander around talk to everyone for a while. It also allowed Harvest Shareholders to select from two different days to pick up (they had to decide at the beginning of the season, though, and counldn't switch back and forth) When we went to delivery we decided to deliver on three days for much the same reason. We pick in the morning, our driver loads about 9:30 am and is done in about 5 hours. The rest of the crew works the farm the rest of the day. Three delivery days also means we don't have to harvest so much at one time, so (starting at 7 am, not 5 am) we can harvest the greens before the bitter sap rises, and everything is fresher (like cukes) and less likely to be bruised from a lot of handling (in to and out of storage, etc.). Beliece it or not, we try to work a 40 hour week, and pay overtime for any time over 8 hours a day or 40 hours a week. We figure it's time farm workers stop subsidizing everyone else. We do have optional Harvest Shareholder work days on Saturdays in July and August, and that's when we get to talk with our Harvest Shareholders and they get to know us - mostly a social thing so we don't feel pressured to get a lot done, and we're not picking for delivery the next day. HEY, CECELIA BOWMAN, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is interested in your pickle recipes. Please post them! Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 28 07:51:01 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27730 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17447 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA21830; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:38:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA21750; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:37:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id 5IQSa05985 (14446); Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4c211629.24a8b819@aol.com> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:35:53 EDT Subject: Re: t-tape distributor To: busson@raex.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 Zimmerman Irrigation is at 3550 Chambersburg Road, Biglerville, PA 17307. 717-337-2727; fax 717-337-1785. However, if you buy from them you'll get "hosed" on shipping costs, (a roll of T-tape is very heavy) so you might be better off ordering from Dripworks since they do not charge for shipping. I do not think Zimmerman has a catalog and they do not have all the stuff Dripworks has. If you know exactly what you need, you're okay. Otherwise it's kind of hard to place an order without a catalog. Maybe they have one, but I've ordered a lot from them (I pick it up) and I've never seen a catalog. Leslie PA Certified Organic From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 28 09:20:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29264 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03625 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA25882; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:08:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sparticus.bright.net (sparticus.bright.net [205.212.123.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25811; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 209.143.11.37 (hils-ras1-2-cs-9.dial.bright.net [209.143.11.37]) by sparticus.bright.net (8.9.3/8.9.3 ComNet Build) with SMTP id JAA08318; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37777049.547F@bright.net> Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:53:28 -0500 From: Marilyn Hiestand Reply-To: sssyfrs@bright.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paorganic@aol.com CC: busson@raex.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: t-tape distributor References: <4c211629.24a8b819@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 FYI, Zimmerman does have a catalog. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jun 28 10:44:03 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01174 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20083 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01224; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:25:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01080 for ; Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:24:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199906281424.JAA01080@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 23017 invoked from network); 28 Jun 1999 14:24:17 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-133.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as004-48.iquest.net) (209.43.53.133) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 28 Jun 1999 14:24:17 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Dan Hook" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: "Holding" produce and pickles Cc: "Allan Balliett" , Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 422 OK--let me get several of my pickle recipes together and send them out. We do pickled green tomatoes (yum!) and a green tomato relish too. There are basically 3 ways to do quick dill pickles--brined in a crock, "refrigerator" pickles (neither are processed) and processed pickles. Refrigerator pickles are the quickest, but I don't think you can beat the flavor or crunch of brined ones so here's that recipe first: Brined Dill Pickles In a large crock (or glass jar) --I use an 8 gallon crock though a smaller one is easier to handle--place: half of your washed cukes (leave a little bit of stem on the ends) Pickling cukes work best, but we aren't picky about that... On top of the cukes place: a layer of grape leaves (optional), an ounce or so of pickling spices, a bunch of fresh or dried dill (dill seeds work if you don't have the whole plant), 5 peeled cloves of garlic, 1 tablespoon of black peppercorns a few hot peppers (if you like spicy pickles) Add the rest of the cukes and another layer of the above spices Bring to a boil in a non-aluminum pan: 1 pint vinegar (cider vinegar works best) 2 gallons of water 1 1/2 cups salt (canning salt--not table salt!) Stir until the salt is dissolved and pour, hot, over the cukes, etc., in the crock. There must be enough brine to cover the pickles--you may need to make more. (Brine keeps, so just keep any extra in a jar until your next batch.) Cover the pickles with a plate that is large enough to hold them down under the brine. Traditionally, pickle makers used a clean rock as a weight. I use a jar filled with water. Anything clean and heavy enough to hold the plate down will do. Cover the crock with a cloth. Don't overfill the crock as during the process the brine might overflow. The crock needs to be in a place that is about 70 degrees or so. I keep mine in the kitchen and it works fine. We don't air condition so the temp gets higher than 70 but if it's comfortable for you it's ususally ok for the pickles too. Check the pickles daily. After awhile a scum starts to develop--keep it skimmed off and keep any renegade cukes under the brine. In 2-3 weeks, test a pickle by cutting it open. If it is the same color throughout, with no white spots, they are ready to use. Taste them to be sure they are well-flavored throughout. Discard any mushy pickles. You can keep the pickles as-is in the crock, place them in jars and cover with the brine (strain it first), or put them in jars, make new brine and process them. We eat them out of the crock or move them into gallon jars if we need to start another batch. It is a shame to process these and they hold well in their brine. If the brine gets cloudy, take the pickles out and rinse them, make new brine (without the spices) and cover them with it. Keep the jar in a cool place or in the refrigerator--they will keep for over a year if you can hang onto them that long! Hollow pickles are ok to eat and are hollow because they were not fresh when pickled. Our pickles are generally made from those leftover from market/CSA or the #2's of the crop--but appearance does not affect taste. You can eat the hot peppers and garlic too--even use the grape leaves if you like. My daughter eats the dill and we use the leftover brine for salad dressings--no waste! I recommend that anyone who wants to make pickles get a good basic canning book like the ball Bluebook for info on processing and troubleshooting. Start out with a small batch and adjust spices to taste. The salt/water/vinegar ratio is important, but the spices can be adjusted in many ways. You can add mustard seed, turmeric, bay leaves or just about anything. CSA members enjoy them at pickup time, right out of the crock. ********* I learned to make pickles from my grandma and relish from my mother. From there we started pickling almost everything. Last year we did garlic for the first time. Wax beans are coming on here now and IF we have any extra I will be pickling them. At 10:41 AM 6/27/99 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: >Ok! You've tempted us what is your recipe for pickles that are so good your >interns ate them all :). I make a half sour pickle that we are very fond of, >but I am always looking for more recipes. I two made relish last year, I >mean what does one do when frost is looming around the corner and you have >rows and rows of green tomatoes ( I will post that recipe if interested). A >bit of a twist on zuccini bread: find a standard carrot cake recipe one >that includes pineaple and substutite 1/2 zuc and carrot its good. Beth > > > > > pickles and my CSA'ers, kids, grandkids and >>friends all head for the pickles the minute they get here. If we are lucky >>we have pickles from the previous year to share until the new ones are >>ready. (Though my interns found that stash this year and they are already >>gone!) There are no really good commercial organic pickles that I can >>find--certainly nothing that beats home made. If I had a commercial >kitchen... >> >>If you need pickle recipes just ask, but good basic recipes are in the Ball >>Bluebook. The Biodynamic folks make some great pickles too. >> >>I like to add more of this or that--garlic, hot peppers, pickling spices... >>Summer squash can be pickled too. Once any of them are past their prime, >>they can be made into bread and butter pickles with great results. >Although >>sweet pickles are not my favorite, my people like them on peanut butter >>sandwiches, grilled cheese, and in potato salads and such. >> >>For that matter, almost any veggie can be pickled or made into a relish. >>It's a great way to preserve them and really not much work. >> >>Overgrown zukes make great bread, patties and muffins. We are always >>teaching our customers how to use things up. Chocolate zucchini bread, >>Zucchini corn muffins,...you can hide the stuff in almost anything! >> >>At 09:12 AM 6/27/99 -0500, Allan Balliett wrote: >>>Thanks for the encouragement, Lucy, Now if someone could confirm the >'how'! ;-) >>> >>>This year we have no market as an outlet and we have only one distribution >>>day for the CSA. Half of our shareholders are delivered to. >>> >>>-Allan Balliett >>>Charles Town, WV >>> >>> >>>>I see no problem with your idea. Ideally we should pick the same day of >>>>pick-up but not many people want a 15lb zuke ( though if you have brits >in >>>>your CSA they treasure such things and call them marrows-we got rid of >many >>>>an oversized zuke to our british members last year). At our farm we have >>>>several picking days each week to insure that the squashes don't get over >>>>sized and everything is under 48hrs old at time of sale/distribution. We >>>>pick for the CSA either Wed. or Thursday morning for a Thursday pm >pick-up. >>>>We also sell at 3 to 4 farmer's markets each week so we pick 4 times a >week >>>>and it is rare that anything lasts on the plant long enough to get big. >>>> Lucy Goodman-Owsley >>>>Boulder Belt CSA >>>>New Paris, OH >>>>http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________________ >>>>Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Cissy Bowman, >>President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >>Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >>Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >>8364 S SR 39 >>Clayton, IN 46118 >>317-539-4317 >>cvof@iquest.net >> >> > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jun 29 14:14:05 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05009 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12124 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15151; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:01:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from agency6.state.ky.us (agency6.state.ky.us [162.114.120.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15007 for ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:59:44 -0500 (CDT) From: Anna.Sidebottom@kyagr.com Received: by agency6.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:57:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: seeking farmers markets selling cheese Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:57:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 423 I am looking for information on any open air farmers' markets that allow farmers to sell cheese and eggs. I am researching for temporary markets that have a similar set up as a market I am working with (where the farmers back up a truck on the lawn/city streets with their tents, etc) and requesting for their rules and guidelines of handling such products at these type of markets. Thanks for any links you could provide in advance. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anna M. Sidebottom From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 2 20:02:49 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03653 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16277 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14314; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:51:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14211 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:49:22 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id oJFZa00103 (4420); Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <84bb001a.24aea9d5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:48:37 EDT Subject: Re: What to do with Zukes (was holding produce) To: goodows@excite.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 424 Careful what you wish for!! It is pouring and I can see my breath outside this afternoon! Not many things like to grow in refrigerator weather. Suzy Cook From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 2 20:09:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03716 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17271 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 20:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14666; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:58:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14509 for ; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:56:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA25719; Fri, 2 Jul 1999 18:55:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2b-144.ix.netcom.com(209.110.253.144) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma025709; Fri Jul 2 18:55:07 1999 Message-ID: <001e01bec4e5$c630e2c0$90fd6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Re: What to do with Zukes (was holding produce) Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 19:51:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 425 I have an all zuccini cook book in fact I forgot all about it. My zuks just started passed out about 7 today to CSA members I think with in a week watch out. I will look through the book. This post asked for raw recipes any other requests? Beth > > how about some recipes for the oversize zuccini? There is also > a small > > cookbook for just that vegetable. With all the zucc each year, > everyone > > should have that book. Also suggest using the small ones raw in > salad. > People > > need to eat as much as possible raw, so each veg you can help > them eat raw > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 3 11:47:24 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13891 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18561 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA10379; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:36:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10165 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 10:32:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (pts0106.gamewood.net [206.229.249.37]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02370 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:31:36 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01bec582$fcb39340$25f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: seeking cheesy farmers markets Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 11:36:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEC548.4F7A87E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 426 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEC548.4F7A87E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Anna, What area are you interested in? ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEC548.4F7A87E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear Anna,
     
    What area are you interested = in?
    ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BEC548.4F7A87E0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 3 14:56:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16416 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14884 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17533; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:45:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17482 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 13:45:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (pts0104.gamewood.net [206.229.249.35]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06485 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:44:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01bec59d$fb86b7c0$23f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: pork production Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:49:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEC563.4E56D420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 427 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEC563.4E56D420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten sluggish? I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic chicken, organic = beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking about = ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or other = discerning consumers. Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no desire to = build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested in = some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a = Hoop House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would = be bedded on wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would = be composted. Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop house idea was given to = me from a friend who thought there was something on it on the internet, = but I can't find it. Any feedback from others who sell meat as part of their farm operations? Amy Long Island VA akjedj@gamewood.net ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEC563.4E56D420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten=20 sluggish?
     
    I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / = Organic=20 chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was = thinking=20 about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or = other=20 discerning consumers.
     
    Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I = have no=20 desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am = interested=20 in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a = Hoop=20 House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would be = bedded on=20 wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would be=20 composted.
     
    Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop house = idea was=20 given to me from a friend who thought there was something on it on the = internet,=20 but I can't find it.
     
    Any feedback from others who sell meat as part of = their farm=20 operations?
     
    Amy
    Long Island VA
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BEC563.4E56D420-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 3 15:27:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16619 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19312 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA18535; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:15:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18488 for ; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:15:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA22659; Sat, 3 Jul 1999 14:15:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-189.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.189) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022642; Sat Jul 3 14:14:58 1999 Message-ID: <002601bec587$d2551240$bdfa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Amy and Eric Johnson" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: pork production Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1999 15:11:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEC566.4976A180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 428 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEC566.4976A180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Amy, The list is real sluggish, its because everyone is farmin'. But = where is Dori? We haven't heard from her in a month. Are you alright = Dori? Meat. I just put in my last newletter that I had a source of = organic Thanksgiving turkeys and was anyone interested in our free range = beef. We'll see what the response is. I am on another e-mail list and = there is a fellow who raises pastured pork, I of course can't remember = is name but next time he posts I'll get his e-mail. Thanks Beth -----Original Message----- From: Amy and Eric Johnson To: CSA list Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 2:48 PM Subject: pork production =20 =20 Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten sluggish? =20 I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic chicken, = organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking = about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or = other discerning consumers. =20 Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no desire = to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested = in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a = Hoop House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would = be bedded on wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would = be composted. =20 Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop house idea was given = to me from a friend who thought there was something on it on the = internet, but I can't find it. =20 Any feedback from others who sell meat as part of their farm = operations? =20 Amy Long Island VA akjedj@gamewood.net ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEC566.4976A180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Amy, The list is real sluggish, = its because=20 everyone is farmin'.  But where is Dori?  We haven't heard = from her in=20 a month.  Are you alright Dori?  Meat.  I just put in my = last=20 newletter that I had a source of organic Thanksgiving turkeys and was = anyone=20 interested in our free range beef.  We'll see what the response = is.  I=20 am on another e-mail list and there is a fellow who raises pastured = pork, I of=20 course can't remember is name but next time he posts I'll get his = e-mail. =20 Thanks Beth
    -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 Amy and Eric Johnson <akjedj@gamewood.net
    >
    To:= =20 CSA list <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 Saturday, July 03, 1999 2:48 PM
    Subject: pork=20 production

    Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten=20 sluggish?
     
    I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / = Organic=20 chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and = was=20 thinking about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA = members=20 or other discerning consumers.
     
    Having worked on commercial hog farms in the = past, I have=20 no desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but = am=20 interested in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system = possibly combined with a Hoop House farrowing "barn" with = a=20 concrete floor where the sows would be bedded on wood chips or = straw, and=20 the waste and soiled bedding would be composted.
     
    Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop = house idea=20 was given to me from a friend who thought there was something on it = on the=20 internet, but I can't find it.
     
    Any feedback from others who sell meat as part = of their=20 farm operations?
     
    Amy
    Long Island VA
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01BEC566.4976A180-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 4 07:12:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23300 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 07:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09612 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 07:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA10771; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 06:00:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10688 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 05:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 05:58:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907041058.FAA10688@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 14688 invoked from network); 4 Jul 1999 10:58:46 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as002-149.iquest.net (209.43.49.149) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Jul 1999 10:58:46 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Amy and Eric Johnson" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: pork production Cc: "CSA list" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 429 There is a farmer in Indiana named Greg Gunthorp who does pastured pork. I don't have his number but I can get it from a friend of mine. Give me a day or 2 and I should be able to find it. At 02:49 PM 7/3/99 -0700, Amy and Eric Johnson wrote: >Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten sluggish? > >I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or other discerning consumers. > >Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a Hoop House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would be bedded on wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would be composted. > >Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop house idea was given to me from a friend who thought there was something on it on the internet, but I can't find it. > >Any feedback from others who sell meat as part of their farm operations? > >Amy >Long Island VA >akjedj@gamewood.net > > > > > > > >
    Wow, is it just me or has the list gotten >sluggish?
    >
     
    >
    I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic >chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking >about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or other >discerning consumers.
    >
     
    >
    Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no >desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested >in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a Hoop >House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would be bedded on >wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would be >composted.
    >
     
    >
    Anyone ever hear of anything similar? The hoop house idea was >given to me from a friend who thought there was something on it on the internet, >but I can't find it.
    >
     
    >
    Any feedback from others who sell meat as part of their farm >operations?
    >
     
    >
    Amy
    >
    Long Island VA
    >
    akjedj@gamewood.net
    > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 4 08:33:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23603 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16171 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 08:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA12263; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 07:22:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12213 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 07:21:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from digger.excite.com ([199.172.152.82]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990704122124.LDY16597.fortune@digger.excite.com> for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 05:21:24 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: pork production Message-Id: <931090884.7026.854@excite.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jul 1999 05:21:24 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.112 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 430 In Ohio there is a fellow named Ed Snavely who does organic pork, though I'm not sure if he's pasturing the hogs. At any rate his address is 11464 Yankee St., Frederickstown, OH 43019 (740) 694-8622 I know he's been doing this a while so he should have some good info. I noticed there are 2 area codes on his ad I believe the one i posted is the correct but if no answer use AC (614) Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 4 11:59:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25111 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11390 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19753; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:47:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17217 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 10:11:07 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id dILUa15316 (4224) for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8c2f345b.24b0d35a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:10:18 EDT Subject: Re: pork production To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 431 Hi Amy, Dan is right. This season in the Northwest is raising a lot of weather challenges I've never faced before. I can deal with slugs, clay soils and marketing. But these overcast days with 42 degree nights in July soaked by 1 to 2-1/2 inches of rain a week has me downing double doses of my St. John's Wort to keep the Seasonal Affective Disorder at bay. I have so little time to share with the circle and miss the banter as well. You hit on my most favorite subject this year, pastured organic hogs. I researched the subject for two years to find a way to meet the public health and safety standards while avoiding the regulatory costs of pork production. This is what I came up with. Since this is my first year to try this, I bought 4 wieners to observe their impact on the land as well as how I can integrate them into my small operation so they are an asset rather than another chore. Each pig was adopted by two families interested in a Christmas ham. Those families signed a time limited room and board agreement for their half. They make monthly payments to me to feed, water and care for their livestock. I use herbal remedies to worm them. Each family has visiting privileges and are very interested in their development. Come October, They will decide, with consultation by me, when to slaughter their hog. They may choose to have a mobile slaughtering outfit come to the farm or pay for transportation to a slaughtering house. Either way they pay for the slaughter and pick up their meat when it is ready. This way, I'm not selling pork. I'm helping families facilitate their own pork production. It does not require a USDA inspected packing plant because each family owns the pig from the get go. They arrange for and pay directly for the slaughtering of their private property (livestock). I'll let you know in November how it all works out. So why do I need a concrete floor in order to keep a sow? It seems like an unnecessary capital expense for just one breeder. Eight to twelve pigs is all I would ever hope to run on an acre. One thing I've learned with this cold summer, is pigs do well in shelters that are small and comfortable. As the pig gets bigger, so does the shelter. They are very good at defecating in the same area so cleaning up the litter for vermicomposting is no problem. I've found several designs for farrowing pens that do not call for concrete floors. Since this is my first try at hogs, am I missing something? Gotta go move those chickens again. See you in the fall. --Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm << I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or other discerning consumers. Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a Hoop House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would be bedded on wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would be composted. >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 4 18:13:06 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29556 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09030 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 18:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03169; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:01:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.ncwebsurfer.com (mail.ncwebsurfer.com [207.231.66.134]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03110 for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 17:01:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default ([207.231.66.221]) by mail.ncwebsurfer.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59712U3000L300S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:04:20 -0700 Reply-To: From: "R Circle Family Farm" To: Subject: pasture pigs Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 15:03:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19990704220420755.AAA128@mail.ncwebsurfer.com@default> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 Below is a web site that has info on the Gunthorp's pasture system. http://grassfarmer.com/pigs/gunthorp.html BP R Circle Family Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 12:09:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04740 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09421 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 12:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03517; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03261 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:53:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26883>; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:58:58 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Jul5.105858cdt.26883@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 10:50:08 -0500 Subject: Re: pork production Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 433 I like your approach Art. No sense in all the investment to maintain sows/boar; farrow facilities; a.i. etc when you can always get a dz weanlings with minimum medication in their background. I've never done it, but the guy who leases my beef cattle on shares gets a few weanlings very spring to raise outdoors. I'm interested in two things: 1) What kind of shelter do you provide? 2) Do you divide the acre into paddocks, or just let them roam? or what? SCook21809@aol.com on 07/04/99 10:10:18 AM To: CSA-L@prairienet.org cc: Subject: Re: pork production Hi Amy, Dan is right. This season in the Northwest is raising a lot of weather challenges I've never faced before. I can deal with slugs, clay soils and marketing. But these overcast days with 42 degree nights in July soaked by 1 to 2-1/2 inches of rain a week has me downing double doses of my St. John's Wort to keep the Seasonal Affective Disorder at bay. I have so little time to share with the circle and miss the banter as well. You hit on my most favorite subject this year, pastured organic hogs. I researched the subject for two years to find a way to meet the public health and safety standards while avoiding the regulatory costs of pork production. This is what I came up with. Since this is my first year to try this, I bought 4 wieners to observe their impact on the land as well as how I can integrate them into my small operation so they are an asset rather than another chore. Each pig was adopted by two families interested in a Christmas ham. Those families signed a time limited room and board agreement for their half. They make monthly payments to me to feed, water and care for their livestock. I use herbal remedies to worm them. Each family has visiting privileges and are very interested in their development. Come October, They will decide, with consultation by me, when to slaughter their hog. They may choose to have a mobile slaughtering outfit come to the farm or pay for transportation to a slaughtering house. Either way they pay for the slaughter and pick up their meat when it is ready. This way, I'm not selling pork. I'm helping families facilitate their own pork production. It does not require a USDA inspected packing plant because each family owns the pig from the get go. They arrange for and pay directly for the slaughtering of their private property (livestock). I'll let you know in November how it all works out. So why do I need a concrete floor in order to keep a sow? It seems like an unnecessary capital expense for just one breeder. Eight to twelve pigs is all I would ever hope to run on an acre. One thing I've learned with this cold summer, is pigs do well in shelters that are small and comfortable. As the pig gets bigger, so does the shelter. They are very good at defecating in the same area so cleaning up the litter for vermicomposting is no problem. I've found several designs for farrowing pens that do not call for concrete floors. Since this is my first try at hogs, am I missing something? Gotta go move those chickens again. See you in the fall. --Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm << I hear of plenty of folks raising free-range / Organic chicken, organic beef , eggs, and such for sale to CSA members, and was thinking about ways to produce pork that would be of interest to CSA members or other discerning consumers. Having worked on commercial hog farms in the past, I have no desire to build a multimillion $$ building and stinky lagoon, but am interested in some form of "Pasture Pig" production system possibly combined with a Hoop House farrowing "barn" with a concrete floor where the sows would be bedded on wood chips or straw, and the waste and soiled bedding would be composted. >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 14:33:31 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06126 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05321 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09880; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:21:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09813 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:21:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.27] (pm3shep1-163-36.intrepid.net [209.190.163.36]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA03186 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:21:13 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:24:43 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Holding Tomatoes Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 OK, forgive me again, please. First year CSA and I distribute on Thursday only. So many ripe or nearly ripe tomatoes today. What's the best policy on holding them? (I'm still waiting for the 'poster' from Extension on what is the best temperature for keeping fruits and vegetables) What's the best time of day to pick tomatoes? And the best method and temp. to store them for a few days? Thanks so much! -Allan Balliett From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 14:39:22 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06166 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06364 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10236; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:28:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (mumble.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10195 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 13:27:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cs.rpi.edu (epters@fridge.cs.rpi.edu [128.213.8.50]) by cs.rpi.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA65897 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 14:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199907051827.OAA65897@cs.rpi.edu> To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Garlic Scapes Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 14:27:46 -0400 From: "Scott D. Epter" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 Hi, Our CSA passed out garlic scapes this week (Janet, who runs it, claims that the bulbs grow bigger if you trim the scapes). We made a pesto out of them by substituting the scapes for both the garlic and the basil and keeping everything else pretty much the same. It is quite garlicky and quite tasty. Just thought I'd pass the suggestion along. Scott PS: My apologies to those who prefer precise recipes (e.g. a tsp of this, a cup of that, etc.) pesto just doesn't work that way for us! :) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 18:29:12 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08857 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19126 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 18:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19820; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:18:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19741 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 17:17:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from almond.excite.com ([198.3.99.227]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990705221640.EIVY18664.kuku@almond.excite.com> for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 15:16:40 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Holding Tomatoes Message-Id: <931212999.1541.412@excite.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 15:16:39 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 436 Allan, If ypou have to hold the tomatoes for a few days pick them a bit green and store them in a shady place that is not cold-Never ever refrigerate tomatoes, it kills the taste and promotes mold growth and is a general bad things for them. We usually pick tomatoes towards the end of the day and have had no problems. We always wait until the dew has dried on the plants as it is bad to work with wet/damp tomato plants and find on a heavy picking day that pm picking fits into thew schedual and the plants are dry. Pick them into something flat and make sure the stem is removed so you don't puncture the fruits esp if you have heirlooms. We use bread racks to hold and transport tomatoes to market and find them to be a good, though not the best solution, as to what to store tomatoes in. Plus all of our racks came to us for free (or under a buck) and we use what we have. Now for a shameless plug-I have been working on my web site and it is gotten purty gosh darned goo if you ask me. if you have the time and inclination wander over and see what you think. Also if you are an Ohio CSA and want to be listed send me your address and email/URL and I will get it up there. If you have a organic/market garden/CSA oriented page lets link up by sending me your URL. Thanks for your time (the hot link is under my name BTW) Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 22:04:45 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12210 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25279 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28141; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:53:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28084 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 20:52:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca (ppp13950.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.163.189]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA18075 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990705215114.00752e7c@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 21:51:14 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Pressure Treated Wood Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 437 Does anyone know if vine (or any) plants can absorb the chemicals through their tentilcles or leaves? We are putting ina garden in a school and want to build a trellis, but want to know if the plants can absorb anything if we use lattus at the back of it. The posts will be untreated cedar, so there is no worry about soil absorbtion. And, what if we were to use a varnish over the treated wood? Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 5 22:48:33 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13239 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04749 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 22:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA29873; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:37:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29830 for ; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 21:37:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.172 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:36:32 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: , "Hilary Chop" Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood - one thoughtful reply ..... Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1999 19:53:18 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <07e6c3236020679CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 438 >Does anyone know if vine (or any) plants can absorb the chemicals through >their tentilcles or leaves? We are putting ina garden in a school and want >to build a trellis, but want to know if the plants can absorb anything if >we use lattus at the back of it. The posts will be untreated cedar, so >there is no worry about soil absorbtion. > >And, what if we were to use a varnish over the treated wood? >Hilary 1. Nothing lasts forever - why not use untreated cedar for the lattice, too ? Or, instead, use jute twine to "build" a "net" type of structure for the vines to climb on if plain twine is not sufficient ? 2. When you speak of varnish, I would think that using marine/spar varnish - here I don't know what I'm talking about but others might - it would seem that if you sealed all the flat sides and the edges, you would have built and varnished a structure that would be sealed away from the elements much the same as pleasure boats used to be - and oppositely, whatever was in the treated wood would be sealed in also ..... you did mean marine varnish, didn't you ? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 10:17:42 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20436 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17835 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 10:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA21385; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:06:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f30.hotmail.com [209.185.131.93]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA21304 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 09:05:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 17278 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jul 1999 14:04:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19990706140439.17276.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 07:04:39 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: Kenneth Barnes To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: re: drip irrigation Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 10:04:39 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 439 On May 9, Kevin Smyth wrote: 'anyone out there know how to "shut off" the individual tee tape lines?' What we do on our farm when we don't need water to all of the drip lines within a certain zone is to disconnect those lines temporarily. We then take a short piece of t-tape (about 5 inches long max)and attach it to the adapter into the lay flat and close it off like we do the normal installation of t-tape. It works really well, and we usually keep several of these short links on hand for just that reason. With a little practice, this can be done without having to shut down the pump. Good Luck! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 13:30:20 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24396 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00072 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 13:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07585; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:18:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07087 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:13:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:13:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907061713.MAA07087@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 21159 invoked from network); 6 Jul 1999 17:13:11 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-37.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as001-19.iquest.net) (209.43.53.37) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 6 Jul 1999 17:13:11 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Hilary Chop From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 440 The chemicals in treated wood can leach into soils--especially into acid soils. Dust from the wood is very toxic. Children should not touch it. I do not have the info here, but during a review of a project that would have used treated lumber for a handicapped-accessible blueberry u-pick, the reveiw committee recommended the use of non-treated lumber. The studies we cited were aquired from Brian Baker of the ORganic Materials Review Institute: www.omri.org At 09:51 PM 7/5/99 -0400, Hilary Chop wrote: >Does anyone know if vine (or any) plants can absorb the chemicals through >their tentilcles or leaves? We are putting ina garden in a school and want >to build a trellis, but want to know if the plants can absorb anything if >we use lattus at the back of it. The posts will be untreated cedar, so >there is no worry about soil absorbtion. > >And, what if we were to use a varnish over the treated wood? > >Hilary > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 15:33:28 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03801 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24405 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19971; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:21:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from serval.noc.ucla.edu (smtp.ucla.edu [169.232.10.57]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19861 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 14:20:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ucla.edu (davidk.biology.ucla.edu [128.97.133.15]) by serval.noc.ucla.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA12148; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <378257D9.AB19095@ucla.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 12:24:09 -0700 From: David King X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Community Garden list , CSA List , Medit-Plants Subject: Is There Spirituality Involved in your Relationship With Plants? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 441 Hi folks... I need some help. I have been tapped to give a lecture titled "Our Spiritual Connection to Plants" and I've suddenly developed writer's block. Any and all are invited to take a second and tell me what those words mean to you. Can you site any resources for me? Anecdotal evidence? Please respond soon - I just am at a loss and I'm beginning to get VERY unspiritual about the whole ordeal. david king greenman@ucla.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 18:00:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07278 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 18:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25508 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03004; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:48:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02707; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 16:45:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id aRLEa24566 (4465); Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <45900312.24b3d287@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:43:35 EDT Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood - one thoughtful reply ..... To: tonihawr@email.msn.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, csa-l@prairienet.org, hchop@sympatico.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 442 Organic standards prohibit the use of pressure treated lumber where it comes in contact with plants. I assume that is because the chemicals can be absorbed by the plant. The problem can be remedied by painting the wood. There is also such a thing as pressure treated wood that does not use copper chromium arsenate (CCA -- the usual stuff wood is "pressure-treated" with). Acceptable materials are copper hydroxide, copper oxide, copper sulfate, copper zinc chromate. As someone already stated, nothing lasts forever. The lattice wood is so thin I doubt the chemicals used to treat it will prolong its life much. How about some neat saplings / branches woven or tied together. The kids could help build it. Leslie Zuck From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 20:19:53 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA10719 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21597 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA13963; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:07:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13892 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA05917; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:06:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-96.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.96) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005879; Tue Jul 6 19:05:41 1999 Message-ID: <002a01bec80b$f5760320$60f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "David King" , "Community Garden list" , "CSA List" , "Medit-Plants" Subject: Re: Is There Spirituality Involved in your Relationship With Plants? Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:02:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 443 I think there is a bit of spirituality in the book "Farms of the Future Revisited" I have the book somewhere I can look through it in the next couple days. But what I remember was a phrase something like people have a natural (ie spiritual ) need to feel the rhythmns of the earth and most a far from it, this is the reason agri tourism is up. People enjoy feeling close to growing food and animals. Personally I love to just sit in the garden with the plants and enjoy their beauty. Beth -----Original Message----- From: David King To: Community Garden list ; CSA List ; Medit-Plants Date: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 3:21 PM Subject: Is There Spirituality Involved in your Relationship With Plants? >Hi folks... > >I need some help. I have been tapped to give a lecture titled "Our >Spiritual >Connection to Plants" and I've suddenly developed writer's block. > >Any and all are invited to take a second and tell me what those words >mean to you. Can you site any resources for me? Anecdotal evidence? > >Please respond soon - I just am at a loss and I'm beginning to get VERY >unspiritual about the whole ordeal. > > >david king >greenman@ucla.edu > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 21:02:59 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11374 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28702 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17424; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:52:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17352 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:51:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEVT7L3T; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 20:50:42 EDT To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 17:55:51 -0700 Subject: subscribing to list Message-ID: <19990706.175551.-111371.0.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 444 It has been so long since I subscribed to this list and now I wanted to tell someone else how to subscribe. Could someone please send me instruction that I could forward to them. Thanks Michael Isensee Urban Bounty Farm Portland, Oregon ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 21:13:35 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11483 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00812 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18414; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:02:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18356 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:02:08 -0500 (CDT) From: Ajulson@aol.com Received: from Ajulson@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id dXMHa17700 (8010) for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <94dea5cd.24b400a4@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:00:20 EDT Subject: Re: Is There Spirituality Involved in your Relationship With Plants? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 52 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 445 Dear David, The best book along the lines you describe IMO is "New Eyes For Plants: A Workbook for Observing and Drawing Plants" by Margaret Colquhoun and Axel Ewald. I have used the suggested activities in nature spirituality classes involving both children and adults. Another avenue to pursue is the entire topic of flower essence work a la Dr. Bach: "Flower Essence Repertory" by Patricia Kaminski is an amazing piece of work that takes Dr. Bach's research into the soul/spiritual nature of plants into the next century. Web site at: http://www.flowersociety.org/ Both books are available through Anthroposophic Press: www.anthropress.org (phone 518-851-2054). If you wish, would be happy to discuss this privately. Best wishes; your presentation sounds quite interesting! Amanda Julson Bryan, TX From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 21:53:48 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12016 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08540 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA21602; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:41:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21539 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:41:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.230] [198.69.131.230] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A16567650068; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:46:13 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:43:05 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: FWD: Write the FDA - re: Irradiated Food Labeling Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 446 >Write the FDA today and tell them that they should continue to label >irradiated food!! Under pressure from the food processing and nuclear >industries, the FDA may let the labeling law expire. Our goal is to get >thousands of comments to the FDA. See the alert below. > > >============================================================== >Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project >============================================================== >ACTION ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >THE FOOD PROCESSING THE COMMENT PERIOD TO THE FDA ON FOOD IRRADIATION HAS >BEEN EXTENDED >TO JULY 18, 1999! > >WRITE THE FDA AND CONGRESS TODAY!! > >TELL YOUR FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES TO DO THE SAME! > >CIRCULATE This E-MAIL! > >The comment period for the proposed Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rule >that allows manufacturers to sell irradiated food without any labeling >requirements to warn consumers has been extended to July 18th. Agribusiness >and the nuclear industry are pressing to label irradiated foods under the >heading "cold pasteurization." > >MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD > >Tell the FDA and Congress: > >- food treated with radiation must continue to be clearly labeled with the >radura (the international symbol for irradiated food) and a statement >indicating it was treated with radiation. > >- the absence of such a statement would be misleading because irradiation >destroys vitamins and causes changes in sensory and spoilage qualities that >are not obvious or expected by the consumer. > >- irradiation creates a new class of unique Radiolytic products that have >never been tested for the possible carcinogenic effects on humans > >- the irradiation process creates new volumes of radioactive waste from >Cobalt 60 and Cesium 137 which will plague our nation; exposing workers to >toxic >radionuclides when we haven't a clue as to what to do with the nuclear waste >we already have. > >Ask that such foods be clearly labeled. Also request that public >comments be placed on the Internet so the public can be informed about who >is participating. (SEE SAMPLE LETTER) > >If we can generate enough letters to maintain labeling, then despite the >government approval for this process, we will be able to avoid buying >irradiated products--but only if we know which foods have been irradiated >based on honest, clear labeling. > >When writing, refer to Docket #98N-1038 "Irradiation in the Production, >Processing, and Handling of Food." > >Send comments before July 18th to: > >Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) >Food and Drug Administration >5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 >Rockville MD 20852 >or >Send an email to: >FDADockets@oc.fda.gov and/or >FDADockets@fda.gov >(Put Docket #98N-1038 in the subject line) > >SAMPLE LETTER TO FDA: >Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) >Food and Drug Administration >5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061 >Rockville, Maryland 20852 >Re: Docket No. 98N-1038, >"Irradiation in the Production, Processing, and Handling of Food" > >To whom it may concern: > >I am extremely concerned about the prospect of weakening the labeling >requirements for irradiated food. Any foods, or any foods containing >ingredients that have been treated by irradiation, should be clearly labeled >with a written statement on the principal display panel indicating such >treatment. The statement should be easy to read and placed in close >proximity to the name of the food and accompanied by the radura, the >international symbol of irradiated food. If the food is not packaged, this >information should be clearly displayed on a poster in plain view and >adjacent to where the product is displayed for sale. > >Like other labels, irradiation labels are required by the FDA to be truthful >and not misleading. I believe that the terms "treated with radiation" or >"treated by irradiation" should be retained. Any phrase involving the word >"pasteurization" is misleading because pasteurization is an entirely >different process of rapid heating and cooling. >I recognize the radura as information regarding a material fact of food >processing. The requirement for irradiation disclosure (both label and >radura) should not expire at any time in the future. The material fact of >processing remains. Even if some consumers become familiar with the radura, >new consumers (e.g., young people, immigrants) will not be. The symbol >should be clearly understandable at the point of purchase for everyone. If >there is no label, consumers will be misled into believing the food has not >been irradiated. > > >Sincerely, > > >SAMPLE LETTER TO YOUR REPRESENTATIVE AND SENATORS > >To A SENATOR: >The Honorable [ ] >Washington, D.C. 20510 > >To A REPRESENTATIVE: >The Honorable [ ] >Washington, DC 20515 > >Dear Senator or Representative [ ], > >I have recently been made aware of a disturbing development at the Food and >Drug Administration as regards the labeling of irradiated foods. Under >pressure from food manufacturers and supporters of the nuclear industry, the >FDA is considering a rule that would remove labeling requirements for foods >treated with radiation. The public only has until July 18, 1999 to voice >its objections to this rule. > >Currently, any food treated with radiation during the production process is >labeled with a symbol known as a radura (the international symbol for >irradiated foods) and either a statement saying "treated with radiation" or >"treated by irradiation." The rule before the FDA would allow manufacturers >to sell any and all irradiated foods to the consumer with nary a mention of >the use of radiation during processing. This is bad for consumers. > >Despite the fact that the FDA has determined that radiation is safe for >food, many consumers, do not want to eat foods treated with radiation. >Radiation changes the texture, taste, nutritional value, and chemical >composition of foods. Radiation creates a heretofore unseen class of unique >radiolytic products that have never been tested for their possible >carcinogenic effects on humans. Furthermore, there are no long-term studies >on the health effects of irradiated food. > >This is a clear-cut issue of consumers having the right-to-know what is in >their food and how the food is processed. We know what the fat, protein, >carbohydrate, and vitamin content is in our food, why should we not know >whether our food has been treated with radiation emanating from some of the >most deadly substances known to man? Please write a letter to the FDA asking >them to continue requiring that irradiated food is clearly labeled. Enclosed >you will find the letter that I wrote to the FDA about this issue > >Sincerely, > > > > > >Wenonah Hauter >Director, >Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project >202-546-4996, ext.350 >Visit our website: http://www.citizen.org/cmep From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Jul 6 22:08:12 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12142 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 22:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11160 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 21:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA22863; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:56:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from x13.boston.juno.com (x13.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22814 for ; Tue, 6 Jul 1999 20:56:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by x13.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EEVXWGKZ; Tue, 06 Jul 1999 21:55:36 EDT To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 19:00:47 -0700 Subject: connecting to this list Message-ID: <19990706.190047.-111371.4.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 447 Thanks for the info on connecting someone to this list Scott Epter! All others need not reply to my email! michael ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 7 09:18:26 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19989 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26463 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01005; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:05:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA00884 for ; Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:04:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907071304.IAA00884@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 76148175; Wed, 07 Jul 1999 13:03:16 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "CSA List" Subject: grasshopper attack! Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 09:03:25 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 448 We are seeing more grasshoppers than ever before, and damage, especially to tender seedlings, is becoming intolerable. Any luck with repellants or other deterents? What about the grasshopper semaspore (nosema locustae)? We have a lot of young amounst the older hoppers. Is there any point in spreading the semaspore at this point? Alas, the guinea hens were Christmas dinner to some lucky predator or we probably wouldn't have this problem today. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jul 8 02:48:34 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA08888 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA27980 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA27683; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA27427 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:20:42 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.21) id sANSa25615 (3893); Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:19:48 EDT Subject: Re: pork production To: Pat_Elazar@cwb.ca CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 Hi Pat, Sorry to be getting back to you so late. We are finally beginning to get summer weather and work in the Great Northwest. Still getting down to 50 degrees at night but its an improvement. To answer your questions: 1. I pick up used truck canopies from the "recycler" section of our local newspaper. I then build a three foot knee wall on three sides and set the canopy on top with the back sticking out about four inches. In the spring, and cool summer, I stuff straw in the gap in back between the knee wall and the canopy I place a sheet of plywood on top of the knee wall to hold heat in and store feed, wormer, and other pig paraphernalia in the loft. I build a 2/3 fourth wall that moves forward as the pigs grow. So they don't spend any unnecessary energy heating a large space. Four pigs find this housing arrangement very cozy. As spring turns into summer, I'll pull the straw out of the gap in the back and remove the fourth wall completely to increase ventilation and keep it comfortable. Seems to be working so far. But this is only my first year. So I'm still learning by trial and error. 2. I started small to observe pig behaviors and make management decisions based on my observations. What I've noticed so far is that pigs tend to run and root along the fence line. So dividing an acre into eight or ten paddocks appears to be a sustainable way of minimizing their impact. Four pigs on an acre is no big deal. But twelve pigs could really make a mess of the fence lines in no time. I run a hot wire six inches off the ground around my fence to keep the pigs from trying to push through to the neighbor's garden. Next year, I plan to make runs and paddocks with gates in order to focus their impact in small zones while resting the majority of the acre for future use. Heck, it works for chickens and pigs are much smarter. But I cann't really comment on this until I try it next year. I hope this helps... Art << I like your approach Art. No sense in all the investment to maintain sows/boar; farrow facilities; a.i. etc when you can always get a dz weanlings with minimum medication in their background. I've never done it, but the guy who leases my beef cattle on shares gets a few weanlings very spring to raise outdoors. I'm interested in two things: 1) What kind of shelter do you provide? 2) Do you divide the acre into paddocks, or just let them roam? or what? >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jul 8 23:12:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25973 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03004; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:59:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02902 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:58:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25941 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20693 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:58:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:58:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Need mail order sources for multiplying and walking onions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 450 Anyone know good places to order multiplying and "walking" onions? Lawrence http://metalab.unc.edu/london InterGarden london@metalab.unc.edu lflondon@worldnet.att.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jul 8 23:12:11 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25981 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA22391 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03004; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:59:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02902 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 21:58:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25941 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20693 for ; Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:58:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 22:58:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Need mail order sources for multiplying and walking onions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 451 Anyone know good places to order multiplying and "walking" onions? Lawrence http://metalab.unc.edu/london InterGarden london@metalab.unc.edu lflondon@worldnet.att.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 11:28:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06436 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17919; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:17:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17254 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:11:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25393 invoked from network); 9 Jul 1999 15:11:07 -0000 Received: from a48-01-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.20) (216.26.11.20) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 1999 15:11:07 -0000 Message-ID: <3786118D.FDA@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:13:20 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hilary Chop CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood References: <3.0.1.32.19990705215114.00752e7c@pop1.sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 452 Others have responded to the pressure treated wood question and provided some good alternatives. I want to caution you about applying a coating to the wood as a way to seal the "bad stuff" from the food. NO COATING WILL LAST. No matter what you use, (assuming the coating itself is something you would allow near food) will last as long as the wood. There is, of course, thequestion of what is in the coating. I encourage you to try some of the alternatives suggested by others: cedar lattice, woven twigs, natural fiber twine, etc. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 11:30:29 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06464 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24789 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17919; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:17:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17254 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:11:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 25393 invoked from network); 9 Jul 1999 15:11:07 -0000 Received: from a48-01-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.11.20) (216.26.11.20) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 Jul 1999 15:11:07 -0000 Message-ID: <3786118D.FDA@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:13:20 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hilary Chop CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood References: <3.0.1.32.19990705215114.00752e7c@pop1.sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 453 Others have responded to the pressure treated wood question and provided some good alternatives. I want to caution you about applying a coating to the wood as a way to seal the "bad stuff" from the food. NO COATING WILL LAST. No matter what you use, (assuming the coating itself is something you would allow near food) will last as long as the wood. There is, of course, thequestion of what is in the coating. I encourage you to try some of the alternatives suggested by others: cedar lattice, woven twigs, natural fiber twine, etc. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 11:47:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07130 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19887; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:34:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (root@iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us [206.79.15.19]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19833 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:33:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from horticulture (CCT-0014.wiu.k12.pa.us [206.79.96.23]) by iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17742 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37861720.5C4B@wiu.k12.pa.us> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:37:05 -0400 From: Mark Ohi Reply-To: mohi@wiu.k12.pa.us Organization: cwctc horticulture X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa email list Subject: treated wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 454 Great discussion on one of the worst recent developments in regards to water quality, food safety and worker safety, (ever think about the folks who work in the manufacturing plants?), that encompasses homeowners, construction industry, farming, recreation, you name it. Sorry about the run on sentence. Remember, you are not supposed to come into contact with the sawdust and residual chemicals on the surface of the wood when building with it. How do you do that? And where do the scraps end up? Hopefully not in your wood stove!! What is the need for "preserved" wood, if you are going to seal it with a coating, any way? Seems redundant. Paints and varnishes, before the prevalence of CCA treated lumber was the "preservative" of choice. Is newer better? Why both? Personally, I feel the product should be banned totally. Mark Ohi. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 11:50:15 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07266 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07450 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA19887; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:34:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (root@iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us [206.79.15.19]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19833 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 10:33:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from horticulture (CCT-0014.wiu.k12.pa.us [206.79.96.23]) by iu7.wiu.k12.pa.us (8.9.0/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17742 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 11:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37861720.5C4B@wiu.k12.pa.us> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 11:37:05 -0400 From: Mark Ohi Reply-To: mohi@wiu.k12.pa.us Organization: cwctc horticulture X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa email list Subject: treated wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 455 Great discussion on one of the worst recent developments in regards to water quality, food safety and worker safety, (ever think about the folks who work in the manufacturing plants?), that encompasses homeowners, construction industry, farming, recreation, you name it. Sorry about the run on sentence. Remember, you are not supposed to come into contact with the sawdust and residual chemicals on the surface of the wood when building with it. How do you do that? And where do the scraps end up? Hopefully not in your wood stove!! What is the need for "preserved" wood, if you are going to seal it with a coating, any way? Seems redundant. Paints and varnishes, before the prevalence of CCA treated lumber was the "preservative" of choice. Is newer better? Why both? Personally, I feel the product should be banned totally. Mark Ohi. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 14:36:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12874 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06056; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:24:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05953 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:23:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.149] (pm3shep3-163-127.intrepid.net [209.190.163.127]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14948 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:27:11 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Harvesting Basil Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 OK. I'm at it again. Can anyone give me pointers on how to get the most out of a patch of basil? How do I avoid (for the longest time possible) the stems turning woody? Is there a practical way to cut and store basil for value addeds, to be worked on sometime later in the year? (I've thought of storing the fresh basil leaves in olive oil until I can make pesto later.) Thanks for your experience! -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA csa@claymont.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 14:36:47 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12893 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03200 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06056; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:24:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05953 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 13:23:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.149] (pm3shep3-163-127.intrepid.net [209.190.163.127]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14948 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:23:32 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:27:11 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Harvesting Basil Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 457 OK. I'm at it again. Can anyone give me pointers on how to get the most out of a patch of basil? How do I avoid (for the longest time possible) the stems turning woody? Is there a practical way to cut and store basil for value addeds, to be worked on sometime later in the year? (I've thought of storing the fresh basil leaves in olive oil until I can make pesto later.) Thanks for your experience! -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA csa@claymont.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 15:22:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16246 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10662; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10602 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:10:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990709190946.WDAD16597.fortune@ringo.excite.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:46 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Message-Id: <931547386.5363.988@excite.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:09:46 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.71 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 Allen, I have no big secrets in the harvesting of the basil other than do it as early as possible and get the stems right into water. To keep the stems from getting woody do another planting or two. The woodiness is just a part of their growth process as are flowers. To store the stuff for future use the oil methods works but a better method is to chop the leaves and freeze in ice cube trays (for individual servings) Basil freezes very well and that will allow you to have winter pesto. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 15:22:11 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16254 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15924 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10662; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10602 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:10:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990709190946.WDAD16597.fortune@ringo.excite.com> for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 12:09:46 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Message-Id: <931547386.5363.988@excite.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 12:09:46 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.71 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 459 Allen, I have no big secrets in the harvesting of the basil other than do it as early as possible and get the stems right into water. To keep the stems from getting woody do another planting or two. The woodiness is just a part of their growth process as are flowers. To store the stuff for future use the oil methods works but a better method is to chop the leaves and freeze in ice cube trays (for individual servings) Basil freezes very well and that will allow you to have winter pesto. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 15:23:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16293 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10817; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:11:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10768 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:11:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26894>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:17:16 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: Allan Balliett cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Jul9.141716cdt.26894@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:09:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 460 Alan, Theres a long thread (hopefully in the archives) about preserving herbs in oil. The botulism danger is quite real & I don't reccommend it. Dori wrote a very inteligent piece on it lst year (or was it the-year-before-last?) If you have basil & olive-oil now, why don't you just add salt, garlic & pine-nuts to taste and make your pesto now and freeze it for later? Just a thought... Allan Balliett on 07/09/99 02:27:11 PM To: csa-l@prairienet.org cc: Subject: Harvesting Basil OK. I'm at it again. Can anyone give me pointers on how to get the most out of a patch of basil? How do I avoid (for the longest time possible) the stems turning woody? Is there a practical way to cut and store basil for value addeds, to be worked on sometime later in the year? (I've thought of storing the fresh basil leaves in olive oil until I can make pesto later.) Thanks for your experience! -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA csa@claymont.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 15:23:16 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16301 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:23:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16284 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10817; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:11:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10768 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:11:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26894>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:17:16 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: Allan Balliett cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Jul9.141716cdt.26894@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 14:09:00 -0500 Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 Alan, Theres a long thread (hopefully in the archives) about preserving herbs in oil. The botulism danger is quite real & I don't reccommend it. Dori wrote a very inteligent piece on it lst year (or was it the-year-before-last?) If you have basil & olive-oil now, why don't you just add salt, garlic & pine-nuts to taste and make your pesto now and freeze it for later? Just a thought... Allan Balliett on 07/09/99 02:27:11 PM To: csa-l@prairienet.org cc: Subject: Harvesting Basil OK. I'm at it again. Can anyone give me pointers on how to get the most out of a patch of basil? How do I avoid (for the longest time possible) the stems turning woody? Is there a practical way to cut and store basil for value addeds, to be worked on sometime later in the year? (I've thought of storing the fresh basil leaves in olive oil until I can make pesto later.) Thanks for your experience! -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA csa@claymont.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 18:22:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22086 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27168; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26492 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:05:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA14309; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-32.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.32) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014257; Fri Jul 9 17:04:08 1999 Message-ID: <002901beca56$78af38a0$20fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:00:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 462 Lucy, When you chop and freexe do you add anything oil or water. My basil is coming along quite well. Beth the stuff for future use the oil methods works but a better method >is to chop the leaves and freeze in ice cube trays (for individual servings) >Basil freezes very well and that will allow you to have winter pesto. >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 18:22:13 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22095 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14663 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA27168; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26492 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:05:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA14309; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-32.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.32) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014257; Fri Jul 9 17:04:08 1999 Message-ID: <002901beca56$78af38a0$20fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:00:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 463 Lucy, When you chop and freexe do you add anything oil or water. My basil is coming along quite well. Beth the stuff for future use the oil methods works but a better method >is to chop the leaves and freeze in ice cube trays (for individual servings) >Basil freezes very well and that will allow you to have winter pesto. >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 19:05:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22750 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00517; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:54:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00031 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:48:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from erin.excite.com ([198.3.99.254]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990709224807.WVKO16597.fortune@erin.excite.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:48:07 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Dan Hook" , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Message-Id: <931560488.5429.557@excite.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:48:08 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.56 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 You can add a bit of either oil or water but it is usually not necessary . Some people like the taste of olive oil in the basil mash. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 9 19:05:52 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22758 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 19:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23507 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 18:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00517; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:54:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00031 for ; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 17:48:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from erin.excite.com ([198.3.99.254]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990709224807.WVKO16597.fortune@erin.excite.com>; Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:48:07 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Dan Hook" , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Harvesting Basil Message-Id: <931560488.5429.557@excite.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 15:48:08 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.56 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 You can add a bit of either oil or water but it is usually not necessary . Some people like the taste of olive oil in the basil mash. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 10 09:10:27 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00937 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10556 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA15203; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:58:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15135 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 07:58:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca (ppp13929.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.163.168]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10076 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990710081330.0075445c@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:13:30 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 466 Thatk you all for your input on pressure treated wood. We're going to go for using twine of sorts, and making a sort of dream catcher out of the trellis. Let us pray for a mild fall - I just got half of my plants in a couple of weeks ago. The other half still has to go in! I'm definately testing the limits of the Ottawa growing season! We've been held back by deliveries, about a month. Thanks again, Hilary PS If any of you need some inspiration, there is a really good book out: "Unnatural Harvest: How Corporate Science is Secretly Altering our Food" by Ingeborg Boyens. Very interesting. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 10 12:59:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02880 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15570 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28294; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from catbert.ucdavis.edu (root@catbert.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.32]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28224 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 11:47:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mrad@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by catbert.ucdavis.edu (8.9.3/UCD3.13.12) with ESMTP id JAA09070 for ; Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 09:47:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Matthew Rademacher X-Sender: mrad@catbert.ucdavis.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: storing onions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990710081330.0075445c@pop1.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 467 Greetings, I was curious how people store their onions. (and prepare to store onions) I have come across stem rot in some of mine as they begin to dry down, and am wondering how to avoid this. Thanks Matt From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 11:50:58 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14784 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06387 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 11:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07601; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:39:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07517 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:38:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 10:38:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907111538.KAA07517@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 18788 invoked from network); 11 Jul 1999 15:38:14 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-165.iquest.net (209.43.55.165) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 11 Jul 1999 15:38:14 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: osalt@teleport.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood Cc: Hilary Chop , csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 468 Probably the best thing to coat wood with is shellac. It's natural and can be re-applied. I would not use it to prevent chemicals from leaching from treated wood, but it will add to the life of untreated wood. At 08:13 AM 7/9/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >Others have responded to the pressure treated wood question and provided >some good alternatives. > >I want to caution you about applying a coating to the wood as a way to >seal the "bad stuff" from the food. NO COATING WILL LAST. No matter what >you use, (assuming the coating itself is something you would allow near >food) will last as long as the wood. > >There is, of course, thequestion of what is in the coating. > >I encourage you to try some of the alternatives suggested by others: >cedar lattice, woven twigs, natural fiber twine, etc. > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 17:18:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18162 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26920; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:06:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26826 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:05:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18138 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26930 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:05:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:05:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 469 Another alternative to PT wood for garden bed retaining walls or fenceposts is using hardwood railroad crossties or dimension lumber prepared the following way: <> >From an article in misc.rural by labchuk@peinet.pe.ca: - Mix 750 mL boiled linseed oil, 30 mL paraffin wax with enough turpentine to make 4 litres. Dip the wood into the mixture for a few minutes or apply with a brush. Let dry a few days before painting. This is a US Dept of Agriculture recipe - supposed to protect for 20 years. <> Structures can be painted with spar varnish, shellac or oil-based paint <> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 17:18:17 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18170 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22741 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA26920; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:06:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26826 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:05:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18138 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26930 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:05:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:05:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Larry London X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Pressure Treated Wood Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 470 Another alternative to PT wood for garden bed retaining walls or fenceposts is using hardwood railroad crossties or dimension lumber prepared the following way: <> >From an article in misc.rural by labchuk@peinet.pe.ca: - Mix 750 mL boiled linseed oil, 30 mL paraffin wax with enough turpentine to make 4 litres. Dip the wood into the mixture for a few minutes or apply with a brush. Let dry a few days before painting. This is a US Dept of Agriculture recipe - supposed to protect for 20 years. <> Structures can be painted with spar varnish, shellac or oil-based paint <> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 18:44:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19078 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA01856; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:33:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Server1.wclynx.com (server1.wclynx.com [207.44.186.194]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01804 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:32:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.44.186.42] by Server1.wclynx.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44039U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA186 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:32:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: mstein@mail.wclynx.com (Mike Steinberg) Subject: Winter squash vilnes Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: <19990711223228401.AAA186@[207.44.186.42]> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 I have been reading about the disposal of winter squash vines. Some say to "clean them up and destroy them" while other articles say they can be composted. First, why can't they just be plowed back in the soil-what might be the deleterious effects. And if I 'clean them up', should they be burned or can they be composted. Any suggestions would be appreciated. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 18:44:44 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19088 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04133 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA01856; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:33:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Server1.wclynx.com (server1.wclynx.com [207.44.186.194]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01804 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 17:32:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.44.186.42] by Server1.wclynx.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44039U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA186 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:32:30 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: mstein@mail.wclynx.com (Mike Steinberg) Subject: Winter squash vilnes Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: <19990711223228401.AAA186@[207.44.186.42]> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 I have been reading about the disposal of winter squash vines. Some say to "clean them up and destroy them" while other articles say they can be composted. First, why can't they just be plowed back in the soil-what might be the deleterious effects. And if I 'clean them up', should they be burned or can they be composted. Any suggestions would be appreciated. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 19:25:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19452 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04538; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:14:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04476 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:13:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-22.raex.com [216.196.24.22]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02100 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002601becbf2$b36027a0$1618c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: winter squash disposal Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:11:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 473 Well, here's what I heard at a county Master Gardener class. If the squash had any sort of pathogen working on them such as wilt or downey mildew ect you wouldn't want to be plowing that back into your field for further bad effect for generations of squash. Same goes for sending them to the compost, although there they might get hot enough so that the bad guys would be killed. Whenever there is a possibility of a plant with a disease that you want to stop, burning is always a fine option that doesn't use chemicals and is pretty certain to work. In olden times when European farmers got black legg of cabbage (a kind of stem rot) in a field they would have a controled burning of the whole field to get rid of it as that was the only way to be sure it didn't continue on into the next season. This is another great reason for crop rotations, a good discussion of which is in Elliot Coleman's book, The New Organic Grower. If you have a whole new family of plants on that field next year the possibility of passing on a cucurbit disease lessens dramatically. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 11 19:25:36 1999 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19460 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09188 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA04538; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:14:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04476 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 18:13:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-22.raex.com [216.196.24.22]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02100 for ; Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002601becbf2$b36027a0$1618c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: winter squash disposal Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:11:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 474 Well, here's what I heard at a county Master Gardener class. If the squash had any sort of pathogen working on them such as wilt or downey mildew ect you wouldn't want to be plowing that back into your field for further bad effect for generations of squash. Same goes for sending them to the compost, although there they might get hot enough so that the bad guys would be killed. Whenever there is a possibility of a plant with a disease that you want to stop, burning is always a fine option that doesn't use chemicals and is pretty certain to work. In olden times when European farmers got black legg of cabbage (a kind of stem rot) in a field they would have a controled burning of the whole field to get rid of it as that was the only way to be sure it didn't continue on into the next season. This is another great reason for crop rotations, a good discussion of which is in Elliot Coleman's book, The New Organic Grower. If you have a whole new family of plants on that field next year the possibility of passing on a cucurbit disease lessens dramatically. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Jul 12 09:02:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26789 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA19534; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:50:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA19439 for ; Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:49:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:49:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907121249.HAA19439@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 29990 invoked from network); 12 Jul 1999 12:49:45 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-6.iquest.net (209.43.47.6) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 12 Jul 1999 12:49:45 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: mstein@mail.wclynx.com (Mike Steinberg) From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Winter squash vilnes Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 475 Deleterous effects are that disease and pests can winter over in the soil, or in a cool compost pile. The worst pest for us is the squash bug, which is hard to kill with organic controls. I'd say burn them. At 03:32 PM 7/11/99 -0700, Mike Steinberg wrote: >I have been reading about the disposal of winter squash vines. Some say to >"clean them up and destroy them" while other articles say they can be >composted. First, why can't they just be plowed back in the soil-what might >be the deleterious effects. And if I 'clean them up', should they be burned >or can they be composted. Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 08:42:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14144 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA22880; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f87.hotmail.com [209.185.131.150]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA21907 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:11:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 21329 invoked by uid 0); 14 Jul 1999 12:10:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19990714121029.21328.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:10:29 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: bataphil@rrcnet.org Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: squash vine borer Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:10:29 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 476 I've read that an effective treatment is to cut open the vine and remove the borer. Then mound the vine with soil, thus covering the opening where the borer was removed. This should allow the vine to continue growing. I haven't tried this method yet, but plan to if necessary. Has anyone else tried this with any luck? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 09:47:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15265 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27615; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:27:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27556 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:27:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907141327.IAA27556@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 12477 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 13:27:15 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-88.iquest.net (209.43.47.88) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 13:27:15 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Kenneth Barnes" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: squash vine borer Cc: bataphil@rrcnet.org, CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 477 This will work if you catch the borer early, but damages the plant and lowers its productivity. Instead, use a hypodermic needle and inject 2 cc of a Bt solution just above the site of the borer's entry. Repeat in 2 weeks. This method saves plants with little damage to the vine. Be sure not to use GMO Bt! My guess is that just stabbing the vine with the needle would also kill the borer, but I have never experimented with the idea. At 08:10 AM 7/14/99 EDT, Kenneth Barnes wrote: >I've read that an effective treatment is to cut open the vine and remove the >borer. Then mound the vine with soil, thus covering the opening where the >borer was removed. This should allow the vine to continue growing. I >haven't tried this method yet, but plan to if necessary. Has anyone else >tried this with any luck? > > >_______________________________________________________________ >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 10:45:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16480 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03673; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:30:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03439 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:27:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990714142734.SCGE306.gigi@doby.excite.com> for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:27:34 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: squash vine borer Message-Id: <931962453.20469.55@excite.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:27:33 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.96 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 478 We have had good success with slicing squash stems and digging the borers out and than covering with soil. We have found dental tools are great for doing this and a knife can make too big a wound in the plant which will kill it. We have had very limited plant loss with this method but you do have to be careful. We have tried injecting the stems with Bt and still had bad loss of plants 9perhaps we were not timely in our applications. We also patrol for eggs and try to get all of them off of the plant so the borers cannot hatch and do their dirty bussiness. The eggs are laid at the base of the plant and on the leaf stems and are a reddish brown color. we have found butternut, delacata and sunburst patty pan squash seem to be resistant to their damage but banana squash will die very easily with only one or two borers. Zukes are resistant too. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 14:40:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21947 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23842; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:47:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web808.mail.yahoo.com (web808.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23743 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 12:47:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990714174959.7692.rocketmail@web808.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.64] by web808.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:49:59 PDT Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:49:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Re: squash vine borer To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Cc: JLanca4538@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 479 Yes, I think stabbing the vine with a needle does work -- but I've only heard word that it does. I haven't tried it or seen the plant afterwards. Before this method, we used to cut open the vines with our large lettuce (multi-purpose) knives. Stabbing the vines seemed like a nicely evil way to deal with the larvae -- to have the dead larvae rotting away inside the vine and hopefully sending out the message "don't come here!" Kirsten --- Cecilia Bowman wrote: > This will work if you catch the borer early, but > damages the plant and > lowers its productivity. > > Instead, use a hypodermic needle and inject 2 cc of > a Bt solution just above > the site of the borer's entry. Repeat in 2 weeks. > > This method saves plants with little damage to the > vine. > > Be sure not to use GMO Bt! > > My guess is that just stabbing the vine with the > needle would also kill the > borer, but I have never experimented with the idea. > > At 08:10 AM 7/14/99 EDT, Kenneth Barnes wrote: > >I've read that an effective treatment is to cut > open the vine and remove the > >borer. Then mound the vine with soil, thus > covering the opening where the > >borer was removed. This should allow the vine to > continue growing. I > >haven't tried this method yet, but plan to if > necessary. Has anyone else > >tried this with any luck? > > > > > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit > http://www.msn.com > > > > > > > Cissy Bowman, > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education > Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing > Association > Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ > 8364 S SR 39 > Clayton, IN 46118 > 317-539-4317 > cvof@iquest.net > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 14:55:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00705 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA29176; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:43:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29079 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:42:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.209] [209.8.149.150] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB33EF9016A; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:47:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990714174959.7692.rocketmail@web808.mail.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 14:44:09 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: squash vine borer Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 480 Reality check - yes, if I'm growing a couple of squash in my garden for personal use, perform surgery. It will be fun. But where is the point of diminishing return? 50 plants, 100 200 500 1000? I know everyone needs a strategy for this crop destroying problem, but there has to be a better one than spending that much time examining each plant, then operating, injecting BT, etc. It seems that it would probably be more time/labor efficient to just destroy each crop as it gets infested and keep on replanting. Besides good field hygiene, it seems that borer tolerant varieties would be the way to go. Though, I find several varieties that are advertised as such, aren't. >Yes, I think stabbing the vine with a needle does work >-- but I've only heard word that it does. I haven't >tried it or seen the plant afterwards. Before this >method, we used to cut open the vines with our large >lettuce (multi-purpose) knives. Stabbing the vines >seemed like a nicely evil way to deal with the larvae >-- to have the dead larvae rotting away inside the >vine and hopefully sending out the message "don't come >here!" > >Kirsten > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Jul 14 17:46:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05406 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 17:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16882; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16809 for ; Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:33:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:33:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199907142133.QAA16809@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 18859 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1999 21:33:39 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-92.iquest.net (209.43.55.92) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 14 Jul 1999 21:33:39 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Leigh Hauter From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: squash vine borer Cc: CSA list Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 481 I have been spraying a solution of neem and blackstrap molasses around the plant bases this year. SO far no borers--but will it last? The mix seems to control japanese beetles too--I see no dead ones, but they move on to other things. (1 T molasses/1 gal water/neem as per directions on the bottle) I plant 4 squash crops a year. The early ones get weedy but this seem to confuse the borer. ONce it quits producing well I replant with something else--but once you get to that last deadline to plant it is nice to have some control to extend the crop. With CSAs it may not matter much but for marketing early and late produce gets the best prices. We plant summer squash from April 14 til July 25 and have our first frost ~ Oct 1-15, but in mid summer you can't get much for the stuff. At 02:44 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Leigh Hauter wrote: >Reality check - yes, if I'm growing a couple of squash in my garden for >personal use, perform surgery. It will be fun. But where is the point of >diminishing return? 50 plants, 100 200 500 1000? I know everyone needs a >strategy for this crop destroying problem, but there has to be a better one >than spending that much time examining each plant, then operating, >injecting BT, etc. It seems that it would probably be more time/labor >efficient to just destroy each crop as it gets infested and keep on >replanting. >Besides good field hygiene, it seems that borer tolerant varieties would be >the way to go. Though, I find several varieties that are advertised as >such, aren't. > > >>Yes, I think stabbing the vine with a needle does work >>-- but I've only heard word that it does. I haven't >>tried it or seen the plant afterwards. Before this >>method, we used to cut open the vines with our large >>lettuce (multi-purpose) knives. Stabbing the vines >>seemed like a nicely evil way to deal with the larvae >>-- to have the dead larvae rotting away inside the >>vine and hopefully sending out the message "don't come >>here!" >> >>Kirsten >> > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Jul 15 19:44:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07724 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 19:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA23133; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:31:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23003 for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 18:30:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from claude.excite.com ([199.172.152.181]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990715233008.ZECQ530.fortune@claude.excite.com> for ; Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:30:08 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Fwd: source for kidney bean pods Message-Id: <932081409.6109.388@excite.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 16:30:09 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.163 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 482 > From: Ray McFall > To: goodows@excite.com > Subject: source for kidney bean pods > Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:58:02 -0700 > Message-ID: <378CF9DA.BC0323F7@accutek.com> > > We are looking for a grower or source to order fresh kidney bean pods > from. Do you know of a source that we might use. Thanks for your help. > > Sincerely, > Melissa Haroian > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa _______________________________________________________ Get your free, private email at http://mail.excite.com/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 24 19:52:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28648 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 19:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA13326; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:40:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24125 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:08:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA14116 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 07:08:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-196.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.196) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014110; Sat Jul 24 07:08:13 1999 Message-ID: <001a01bed5cc$ac18be60$c4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: drying foods Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 08:04:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 483 Well things are about in full swing here, if only the tomatoes would ripen (I picked about 10 yesterday, just ripe). I'd like to entice my members to preserve some of their harvest. Many are year round organic store shoppers (who are just as clue less as conventional store shoppers as to season, but thats another post) so I know they would like to extend their summer food into winter. This week my newsletter was "How and Why to Blanch Vegetables" and instructions for freezing squash, and beans. I got a dehydrator for Christmas and I'd like to experiment with it before I attempt to recommend it to my members. I am looking for a web page about drying and with recipes. I saw out in the world a little bottle of dried veggies, onion, peppers etc. it was supposed to be added to soup. I was looking at the herbs a tiny bottle of dried rosemary $2+. I have a bottle of Italian seasoning its a mix of herbs, I'd like recipes for these mixes. I may if I have the time make one mix for each member, and my church is having a fair in Nov. of which I have no time to make crafts for, but I thought some of these mixes might be nice. I made pepper jelly and green tomato relish that was well received last year. Any help with this would be helpful thank-you Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jul 24 20:10:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28850 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 20:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA14763; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:59:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14664 for ; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 18:58:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hippie.excite.com ([198.3.99.13]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990724235728.KVEM530.fortune@hippie.excite.com>; Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:57:28 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Dan Hook" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: drying foods Message-Id: <932860649.10731.116@excite.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 16:57:29 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.207 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 484 Beth, try http://www.gardenweb.com/forums-they have a harvest BB that may help you out (it's a great allround garden site with a very active organic group and a good market garden board. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jul 25 07:37:48 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA06655 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA18928; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:25:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18876 for ; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA08075; Sun, 25 Jul 1999 06:24:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-228.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.228) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008069; Sun Jul 25 06:24:49 1999 Message-ID: <001001bed68f$c358d9c0$e4f96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Re: drying foods Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 07:20:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 485 Thanks you guys are the best. Beth >Beth, >try http://www.gardenweb.com/forums-they have a harvest BB that may help you >out (it's a great allround garden site with a very active organic group and >a good market garden board. >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Jul 30 16:32:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26792 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 16:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA04361; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:17:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04203 for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 15:16:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from scorch.excite.com ([199.172.152.240]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990730201540.CXMR300.ewey@scorch.excite.com> for ; Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:15:40 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Packaging source Message-Id: <933365740.16476.905@excite.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:15:40 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.152 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 486 hello from the swealtering Midwest.... I found a great web site devoted to fresh produce packaging. Check it out@ http://www.montepkg.com it has all sorts of boxes, bags bulk containers and is in Michigan. Prices seem good too. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Aug 1 16:22:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28996 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16371; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:08:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16272 for ; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:07:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990801200711.IVOC296.kuku@flash.excite.com>; Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:07:11 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Mary E Hoelterhoff" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Packaging source Message-Id: <933538032.28820.856@excite.com> Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:07:12 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.181 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 487 For those who do not have web access the phone and address of the Monte Co. is 1800-653 2807. 3752 Riverside Rd, P.O. Box 126. Riverside, MI 49084. They take most credit cards according to the site as well. .Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 09:41:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09556 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16675; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:24:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16560 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:23:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA05910; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:22:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-75.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.75) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005881; Mon Aug 2 08:22:45 1999 Message-ID: <003c01bedc20$d7d24b20$4bfa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Re: Packaging source Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:21:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 488 Lucy, Thank-you for posting this. I have requested a catalogue. I was just saying I'd really like one of those rolls of thin plastic bags. I have been using recycled grocery store bags, which I read is a no no. But we are not certified our customers know that. And they bring me their bags. Frankly I don't think in the scheme of things using these bags are a big woop, especially since the customers bought the stuff in the first place. Oh well I need the others 'cause I've been running out of bags. I was at a heath food store this week and purchased some bulk stuff. Their bags felt different, cellulose? Wondering where to get those. Also where to get old fashioned waxed paper bags. I haven't worn out shoe leather looking (and I forgot to look in heath food store I should have made a list) but in the reg. grocery store none. Well can't wait to look through the catalogue. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Friday, July 30, 1999 4:16 PM Subject: Packaging source >hello from the swealtering Midwest.... >I found a great web site devoted to fresh produce packaging. Check it out@ >http://www.montepkg.com it has all sorts of boxes, bags bulk containers and >is in Michigan. Prices seem good too. > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 09:44:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09601 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA17115; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:29:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16915 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:27:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA06385 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:27:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-75.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.75) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006303; Mon Aug 2 08:26:31 1999 Message-ID: <004101bedc21$5e796c80$4bfa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Organic cotton Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 09:25:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 489 I have surfed the web. I have found many places to buy organic cotton, hemp, and soda bottle fabric clothes. Does anyone know a source for the fabric. Retail not wholesale. I can sew, I can from some of the prices save myself $100 on an ensemble(say that with a french accent). Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 10:16:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10103 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20345; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:02:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20285; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:01:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id uONUa14808 (4467); Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:00:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6c90c5f1.24d6fe90@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:00:48 EDT Subject: Re: Packaging source To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, goodows@excite.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 490 One of the problems with using recycled plastic grocery bags for food is that you don't know WHAT was in it before. It's not just an organic thing. I worry about nasty things like household chemicals, detergents, bleach, even automotive oil, paint thinners, all of which are sold in grocery stores and placed in the same kinds of bags as your head of broccoli. We have purchased boxes of new bags like the ones you are talking about at stores like Price Club, Sam's Club, the warehouse type stores that supply restaurants. You get zillions of them for a very reasonable price. Leslie PCO From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 10:20:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10207 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20851; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:06:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20793 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:06:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA11349 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:05:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-75.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.75) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011322; Mon Aug 2 09:05:43 1999 Message-ID: <004e01bedc26$d8293600$4bfa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Nofa and other ramblings Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 10:04:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 491 Hi list is anyone going to the NOFA conference in Aug. at Hampshire College in Massachusetts? We are going Saturday. I thought is would be fun to meet cyber friends. I've already got one e-mail guy to find ,a professor looking for a farm to tour. I wrote back that I wasn't sure we were what he was looking for in that we don't sit around discussing our farm as one would in a classroom. We get up, we work in this darn heat, we get a great product to (pleased?!) customers. He wrote back, well actually the biggest criteria was that we'd be willing to host a group of college students, we that criteria we met. Pleased Customers, you folks with CSA's I hope you are now getting some positive feedback from your customers. I keep a weekly attendance sheet, I started it just as a way to keep me organized. Its Wed. who should be here etc. Then I'd check them off when they pick-up as a way to keep me organized. Don't want to pack more baskets than needed. Well I realized its a good record keeper in its own crude way. Its very easy to see who is consistently absent, I even write late on the sheet if they're late. I write comments they say, I write what new veggies I've given them(so I can look back as to when something was ready) The absent or late people I expect to loose next year. Also when these people (absents or lates) are on the list I tend not to pick their lettuce or highly wiltable veggie until they show up. My dependable which are the majority are beginning to give me good feedback. "Those are the best beans I've ever (ever) eaten", "That iceberg lettuce was really good", "We haven't bought iceberg in years" They went on to explain cause iceberg is boring, tasteless etc. Well not ours! Veggies that have gotten most comments: Beets "those beets are really good" One of my little members said yeh when I put the beets in their basket. The beans and now the potatoes. We've had Red Norland ready for two weeks. One customer said that a friend told her that fresh potatoes are really much better than store potatoes. She said she was skeptical. Well after she'd eaten ours she said her friend was right our potatoes were way better. Gotten good comments on my lettuce mix. It's not really mesculn (spelling?) in that I let the lettuce grow a bit larger. I needed the volume. But the seeds were from a mix. From Johnny's seeds. All lettuce mix I think. I forget which lettuce, but something like green romaine, red leaf romain, oak leaf types red and green. I pick three "heads" and put in bag. I had an extra one on day so I made a salad out of it, yummy. I see why the people comment on how good it is. When I am pleased or you might say surprised at how good something is, that makes me happy. I am probably the biggest critic. I was very disappointed in the Chiggoga (spelling?) beets. They are listed as stripped(two p's or one? Ah spell check is not going to fix these words now you'll know that spelling along with housework is not my forte). When you cut one raw, its pretty. If you cook it it turns whitish pink. It tastes however great. But I still get annoyed by the color. I was pretty much decided I would not grow it next year. But I have gotten lots of comments on "those white beets" people like them. They are going buy taste not the catalogue description gesh. Most comments my newsletter "oh good a newsletter" "I like the newsletter as much as the veggies, well not really ha ha" I have read in info about CSA's must have been in "Farm of the Future Revisited" and in the book I am now ready "Sharing the Harvest" that communication is very important and it lists other members saying how they loved the newsletter. The pressure is on. I try to write humorously, with farm fun stuff thrown in. Stuff about the animals, other farms I visit (we like to visit other farms), the veggies. I included recipes, one newsletter was just on instructions on how to freeze. A fellow told me yesterday when he left his house his wife was just finishing up freezing summer squash per my instructions. I was so pleased. Storing for winter I think the members will really enjoy. Well as you can see by my posts, I have no members coming for pick-ups today. I get to play on the computer, I should be watering my flowers however, is it ever going to rain! Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 10:45:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10613 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22925; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:30:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22840 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:30:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:30:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908021430.JAA22840@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 24511 invoked from network); 2 Aug 1999 14:30:18 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as004-59.iquest.net (209.43.54.59) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Aug 1999 14:30:18 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Dan Hook" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Organic cotton Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 492 TX has an organic cotton growers co-op--all of whom are certified by TDA. La Rhea Pepper of Cotton Plus would be a good contact, but I don't have her email address. Leslie McKinnon of TDA could help you find sources or possibly have La Rhea's number: LMckinno@agr.state.tx.us (Leslie Mckinnon) At 09:25 AM 8/1/99 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: >I have surfed the web. I have found many places to buy organic cotton, >hemp, and soda bottle fabric clothes. Does anyone know a source for the >fabric. Retail not wholesale. I can sew, I can from some of the prices >save myself $100 on an ensemble(say that with a french accent). Thanks Beth > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 2 10:56:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10802 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23839; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:41:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23778 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:41:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hippie.excite.com ([198.3.99.13]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990802144103.LYWE7470.gigi@hippie.excite.com> for ; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:41:03 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Western Ohio Farm Tour Message-Id: <933604862.23630.570@excite.com> Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 07:41:02 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.32 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 Hello fellow CSA farmers and others, This is an open invite to anyone reading this from Ohio/Indiana who wants to see our farm (other areas of the globe can come as well but it is quite a drive for dinner and a tour. We are having a farm tour on september 12th at 2pm edt. If you want to stay for dinner afterwards bring a dish to share and plates/flatware. We will be touring the gardens, showing off the meat flock and the laying hens if they don't all run and hide in the coop (their usual reaction to strangers) as well as our tillage equipment and hand made tools my husband forges. Should be a fun time. Contact me for directions. i hope many of you all can make it -I'd love to meet all of you. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 3 01:59:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA28905 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 01:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA10686; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:43:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from animal.blarg.net (michelle@animal.blarg.net [206.124.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA10462; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:39:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (michelle@localhost) by animal.blarg.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA21841; Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:39:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Michelle Y. Crawford" To: Paorganic@aol.com cc: guldann@ix.netcom.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, goodows@excite.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Packaging source In-Reply-To: <6c90c5f1.24d6fe90@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 Our local grocery store will sell anyone a roll of produce bags, the "organic" labeled ones or not, for 15 dollars a roll. There are hundreds of bags...just ask in your produce dept. Michelle Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, 27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 Paorganic@aol.com wrote: > One of the problems with using recycled plastic grocery bags for food is that > you don't know WHAT was in it before. It's not just an organic thing. I worry > about nasty things like household chemicals, detergents, bleach, even > automotive oil, paint thinners, all of which are sold in grocery stores and > placed in the same kinds of bags as your head of broccoli. We have purchased > boxes of new bags like the ones you are talking about at stores like Price > Club, Sam's Club, the warehouse type stores that supply restaurants. You get > zillions of them for a very reasonable price. > > Leslie > PCO > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 3 07:30:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA02391 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA26147; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:15:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25574 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:03:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA05782 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:03:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-45.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.45) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005747; Tue Aug 3 06:02:51 1999 Message-ID: <002201bedcd6$720e3b80$2df96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Re: Packaging source Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:01:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 495 Thanks Michelle -----Original Message----- From: Michelle Y. Crawford To: Paorganic@aol.com Cc: guldann@ix.netcom.com ; owner-csa-l@prairienet.org ; goodows@excite.com ; CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 1:38 AM Subject: Re: Packaging source > >Our local grocery store will sell anyone a roll of produce bags, the >"organic" labeled ones or not, for 15 dollars a roll. There are hundreds >of bags...just ask in your produce dept. Michelle > >Michelle Crawford, Pacific Potager, organic farm and nursery, >27918 Vashon Hwy SW Vashon, WA 98070 > > > > > > >On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 Paorganic@aol.com wrote: > >> One of the problems with using recycled plastic grocery bags for food is that >> you don't know WHAT was in it before. It's not just an organic thing. I worry >> about nasty things like household chemicals, detergents, bleach, even >> automotive oil, paint thinners, all of which are sold in grocery stores and >> placed in the same kinds of bags as your head of broccoli. We have purchased >> boxes of new bags like the ones you are talking about at stores like Price >> Club, Sam's Club, the warehouse type stores that supply restaurants. You get >> zillions of them for a very reasonable price. >> >> Leslie >> PCO >> > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 3 08:03:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02647 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA27960; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:51:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from thor.westserv.net.au (thor.westserv.net.au [203.34.200.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA27348 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from oemcomputer (tig01-ppp1.cowra.lisp.com.au [206.18.110.11]) by thor.westserv.net.au (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16125 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:38:02 +1000 Message-ID: <037601bedda5$ceac6720$0100007f@oemcomputer> Reply-To: "Rosnay" From: "Rosnay" To: Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 21:46:11 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_036E_01BEDDF9.9A629620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_036E_01BEDDF9.9A629620 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_036F_01BEDDF9.9A629620" ------=_NextPart_001_036F_01BEDDF9.9A629620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please unsubscribe us from the list,=20 thanks ROSNAY ORGANIC FARMS=20 Rivers Road, Canowindra, NSW 2804 Australia Tel (0263) 443215 Fax (0263) = 443229 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_036F_01BEDDF9.9A629620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rosnay stationery
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    Rivers Road, = Canowindra, NSW 2804=20 Australia Tel (0263) 443215 Fax (0263) 443229

     

     

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firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05887 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:51:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA06139; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:38:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05740 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:34:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca ([206.172.93.41]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA28066 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990803065658.007417e4@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 06:56:58 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Ottawa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 497 Is anyone out there around the Ottawa (Ont.) area? I'm scouting for a winter share. But, the trick is I don't have a car. Thanks, Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 4 00:13:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21950 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA25647; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:00:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ivory.lm.com (ivory.telerama.com [205.201.1.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA25521 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 22:59:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [205.201.42.1] (d14-01.dyn.telerama.com [205.201.42.1]) by ivory.lm.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id XAA08552 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:59:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199908040359.XAA08552@ivory.lm.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 23:51:53 -0400 Subject: CSAs in Pittsburgh area? From: "Brad Fisher" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 Greetings CSA farmers, hope your harvest is going well. For an article in a local newsletter, I'm looking for a list of CSA farms that deliver to the Pittsburgh area--specifically the South Hills. I'd appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction. I will be calling the Biodynamics hotline as soon as I get off the computer. Is that the best place to go? Thanks... Brad Fisher Pittsburgh From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 4 00:33:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22128 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 00:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27184; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:20:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from saturn.ausaid.gov.au (saturn.ausaid.gov.au [202.6.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27107 for ; Tue, 3 Aug 1999 23:20:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: by saturn.ausaid.gov.au; id OAA26301; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:19:40 +1000 (EST) Received: from degas.ausaid.gov.au(202.6.37.150) by saturn.ausaid.gov.au via smap (V4.2) id xma026288; Wed, 4 Aug 99 14:19:37 +1000 Received: from ccMail by degas.ausaid.gov.au (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 0010D05A; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:17:47 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:16:33 +1100 Message-ID: <0010D05A.005013@ausaid.gov.au> From: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au (Anton Vikstrom) Subject: an urban CSA To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, "Brad Fisher" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 Gday y'all Well ive decided to take the plunge and start up an urban based CSA in canberra, australia. Starting pretty small/part time, hopefully about 6 shares Im escaping the land trap by borrowing varios peoples yards/vege patches and planting low maitenance crops- spuds/pumkin/corn etc. My own yards gonna grow most the other stuff (its good dirt now) Question? Anyone got experience with sweet potato. Im thinking about putting in a big patch and am trying to work out which varieties are the earliest. anyway, i hope you get some rain over there. cheer anton *--------------------------------------------------------------------* This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the AusAID Help Desk on +61 (0)2 6206 4666. Or email AusAID_Help!!@ausaid.gov.au This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses before transmission. *--------------------------------------------------------------------* From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 4 06:22:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA25267 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:22:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA17809; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:09:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp4.erols.com (smtp4.erols.com [207.172.3.237]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA17736 for ; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 05:08:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.172.173.47] (207-172-173-47.s47.as1.kgp.pa.dialup.rcn.com [207.172.173.47]) by smtp4.erols.com (8.8.8/smtp-v1) with ESMTP id GAA18223; Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:08:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: patters@pop.erols.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199908040359.XAA08552@ivory.lm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 06:11:49 -0400 To: "Brad Fisher" , CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Ted Patterson Subject: Re: CSAs in Pittsburgh area? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 500 At 11:51 PM -0400 8/3/99, Brad Fisher wrote: >For an article in a local newsletter, I'm looking for a list of CSA farms >that deliver to the Pittsburgh area--specifically the South Hills. I'd >appreciate it if someone could point me in the right direction. You might contact the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture (PASA). They did a pretty extensive survey of local growers in that region for a directory for chefs, and would likely know CSA's. You can call them at 814-349-9856. Ted Patterson Wayne, PA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 9 22:13:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29433 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 22:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA14259; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 21:02:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mario.discoverynet.com (mario.discoverynet.com [206.99.171.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13369 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 20:49:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from compaq (pm6-24.discoverynet.com [216.88.172.40]) by mario.discoverynet.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05141; Mon, 9 Aug 1999 20:48:50 -0500 Message-ID: <002401bdc400$eb229c40$28ac58d8@compaq> From: "Joe Thornburg" To: "Rosnay" , Subject: Re: Sweet cantelope Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 20:48:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDC3D7.012615A0"; type="multipart/alternative" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BDC3D7.012615A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_001F_01BDC3D7.012615A0" ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01BDC3D7.012615A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was curious if anyone could tell me how to grow sweet cantelope. = The melons that I grow are juicy and of nice size but not as sweet as I = would like. They are falling off of the vine but still not very sweet =20 =20 =20 Thanks much =20 Joe Thornburg Jolo Farms Wellington Missouri ------=_NextPart_001_001F_01BDC3D7.012615A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rosnay stationery

    I was curious if = anyone could tell=20 me how to grow sweet cantelope.  The melons that I grow are = juicy and=20 of nice size but not as sweet as I would like.  They are = falling off of=20 the vine but still not very sweet

     

     

     

    Thanks = much

     

    Joe = Thornburg

    Jolo Farms

    Wellington=20 Missouri

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firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09716 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA26187; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:06:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.rivnet.net (mail.rivnet.net [205.130.32.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA25781 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rivnet.net (unverified [205.130.32.203]) by mail.rivnet.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:00:03 -0400 Message-ID: <37B0220B.FD349E9F@rivnet.net> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:58:52 -0400 From: Ann Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joe Thornburg CC: Rosnay , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Sweet cantelope References: <002401bdc400$eb229c40$28ac58d8@compaq> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EB47A7FD304BF05C39F93B7C" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 502 --------------EB47A7FD304BF05C39F93B7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would also like the answer to this question. Maybe I am giving them too much water. My cantaloupes are beautiful, big and juicy (not muskmelons) -- but they have very little taste. Thanks -- Mormor@rivnet.net Joe Thornburg wrote: > > > I was curious if anyone could tell me how to grow sweet > cantelope. The melons that I grow are juicy and of nice > size but not as sweet as I would like. They are falling off > of the vine but still not very sweet > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > Joe Thornburg > > Jolo Farms > > Wellington Missouri > --------------EB47A7FD304BF05C39F93B7C Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------17FE06C0CFB2E281621CB9D2" --------------17FE06C0CFB2E281621CB9D2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would also like the answer to this question.  Maybe I am giving them too much water.  My cantaloupes are beautiful, big and juicy (not muskmelons) -- but they have very little taste.  Thanks -- Mormor@rivnet.net

    Joe Thornburg wrote:

     
    I was curious if anyone could tell me how to grow sweet cantelope.  The melons that I grow are juicy and of nice size but not as sweet as I would like.  They are falling off of the vine but still not very sweet

     

     

     

    Thanks much

     

    Joe Thornburg

    Jolo Farms

    Wellington Missouri

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-0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2a-213.ix.netcom.com(209.110.252.213) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004701; Tue Aug 10 09:40:44 1999 Message-ID: <013201bee275$146a14a0$26fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: sweet muskmelon Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:40:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 The only suggestion I have is next year when ordering seeds pay close attention to the description of the fruit. Look for one thats sweet. I know thats not much help. I suggest because last year we grew a cantalope. It was fine in my opinion. But my husband said its not as sweet as Burpee's Ambrosia. So we have some of that planted this year as well as a different variety name unknown. I'll let you know if the "experiment" worked. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 11:41:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12718 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA09398; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:30:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08909; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:24:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id uJOWa28698 (4247); Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:23:33 EDT Subject: Re: an urban CSA To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au, CSA-L@prairienet.org, brad@lm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 I haven't read it, but here's the info on a book about sweet potatoes: "Sweet Potatoes for the Home Garden" It supposedly contains "special techniques for Nortthern growers" By Ken Allan Green Spade Books Kingston, Ontario 200 pages Available from Ken Allan, 61 South Bartlett Street, Kingston, Ont, K7K 1X3. $20 (US or Canadian) cash, check or money order. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 11:18:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12325 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07278; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06703 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:01:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA08056; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:00:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2a-213.ix.netcom.com(209.110.252.213) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007992; Tue Aug 10 10:00:01 1999 Message-ID: <013501bee277$c5f97c40$26fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Anton Vikstrom" , , "Brad Fisher" Subject: Re: an urban CSA Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:59:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 Hi Anton, Good luck to you. 6 shares is a good way to start although plant enough for 12-15 shares. For two reasons so you will have enough for your 6 and so you can see how it is to grow that much food. We had 10 members last year 37 this year. Last year we planted enough for about 20. So planting for and increase in yield 20-37 was not that much different. Although we got our 37 as a result of an add in the paper and did NOT expect this kind of response so the early crops were a little light, but we are making up for it now in tomatoes! Dealing with 37 pick-ups per week as opposed to 10 is a big difference. Think I am finally getting in the groove after 2 months :). A huge word of advice it is very easy to deal with these 6 members in a very casual way ie pick up when ever, throw a little extra this or that in their basket etc. Be careful. If those same 6 join next year when you have expanded and have to have a tighter schedule they are the hardest to "tame" I say this from experience two of last years people are not fitting into my pick-up schedule 3 times a week(each member picks one of those days) during certain hours. Well these two of whom I like very much are not fitting into the time brackets, and I am "unable" to make them. A third one wasn't fitting but now they are when they realized I have set hours unlike last year. Quantiy in basket, I did make an attempt at fair distribution last year. But I must be fair this year or in some things I won't have enough. So with your 6 people either limit quantiy (ie make it what you think the quantity would be for a larger membership) and sell the surplus elsewhere. Or if you think they can deal say "as a thank-you for joining in our first year you get a bit extra of squash whatever" but explain that next year there will be a more tight distribution. As for your actually question of sweet potatoes I know nothing. But I'd love to hear other responses. I have people request them. I have read that you can grow them in the northeast US where I live. You must get certain varieties give them a little head start. Grab yourself a book on growing written by someone from you area. It may explain how to grow them. Good Good luck Beth -----Original Message----- From: Anton Vikstrom To: CSA-L@prairienet.org ; Brad Fisher Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:20 AM Subject: an urban CSA > Gday y'all > > Well ive decided to take the plunge and start up an urban based CSA in > canberra, australia. Starting pretty small/part time, hopefully about > 6 shares > > Im escaping the land trap by borrowing varios peoples yards/vege > patches and planting low maitenance crops- spuds/pumkin/corn etc. My > own yards gonna grow most the other stuff (its good dirt now) > > Question? > > Anyone got experience with sweet potato. Im thinking about putting in > a big patch and am trying to work out which varieties are the > earliest. > > anyway, i hope you get some rain over there. > > cheer > > anton >*--------------------------------------------------------------------* >This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for >the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If >you have received this email in error please notify the AusAID >Help Desk on +61 (0)2 6206 4666. Or email AusAID_Help!!@ausaid.gov.au > >This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked >for the presence of computer viruses before transmission. >*--------------------------------------------------------------------* > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 12:30:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12718 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA09398; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:30:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08909; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:24:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id uJOWa28698 (4247); Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:23:33 EDT Subject: Re: an urban CSA To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au, CSA-L@prairienet.org, brad@lm.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 506 I haven't read it, but here's the info on a book about sweet potatoes: "Sweet Potatoes for the Home Garden" It supposedly contains "special techniques for Nortthern growers" By Ken Allan Green Spade Books Kingston, Ontario 200 pages Available from Ken Allan, 61 South Bartlett Street, Kingston, Ont, K7K 1X3. $20 (US or Canadian) cash, check or money order. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 12:31:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12325 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 11:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07278; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:07:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06703 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:01:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA08056; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:00:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2a-213.ix.netcom.com(209.110.252.213) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007992; Tue Aug 10 10:00:01 1999 Message-ID: <013501bee277$c5f97c40$26fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Anton Vikstrom" , , "Brad Fisher" Subject: Re: an urban CSA Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 10:59:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 507 Hi Anton, Good luck to you. 6 shares is a good way to start although plant enough for 12-15 shares. For two reasons so you will have enough for your 6 and so you can see how it is to grow that much food. We had 10 members last year 37 this year. Last year we planted enough for about 20. So planting for and increase in yield 20-37 was not that much different. Although we got our 37 as a result of an add in the paper and did NOT expect this kind of response so the early crops were a little light, but we are making up for it now in tomatoes! Dealing with 37 pick-ups per week as opposed to 10 is a big difference. Think I am finally getting in the groove after 2 months :). A huge word of advice it is very easy to deal with these 6 members in a very casual way ie pick up when ever, throw a little extra this or that in their basket etc. Be careful. If those same 6 join next year when you have expanded and have to have a tighter schedule they are the hardest to "tame" I say this from experience two of last years people are not fitting into my pick-up schedule 3 times a week(each member picks one of those days) during certain hours. Well these two of whom I like very much are not fitting into the time brackets, and I am "unable" to make them. A third one wasn't fitting but now they are when they realized I have set hours unlike last year. Quantiy in basket, I did make an attempt at fair distribution last year. But I must be fair this year or in some things I won't have enough. So with your 6 people either limit quantiy (ie make it what you think the quantity would be for a larger membership) and sell the surplus elsewhere. Or if you think they can deal say "as a thank-you for joining in our first year you get a bit extra of squash whatever" but explain that next year there will be a more tight distribution. As for your actually question of sweet potatoes I know nothing. But I'd love to hear other responses. I have people request them. I have read that you can grow them in the northeast US where I live. You must get certain varieties give them a little head start. Grab yourself a book on growing written by someone from you area. It may explain how to grow them. Good Good luck Beth -----Original Message----- From: Anton Vikstrom To: CSA-L@prairienet.org ; Brad Fisher Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 12:20 AM Subject: an urban CSA > Gday y'all > > Well ive decided to take the plunge and start up an urban based CSA in > canberra, australia. Starting pretty small/part time, hopefully about > 6 shares > > Im escaping the land trap by borrowing varios peoples yards/vege > patches and planting low maitenance crops- spuds/pumkin/corn etc. My > own yards gonna grow most the other stuff (its good dirt now) > > Question? > > Anyone got experience with sweet potato. Im thinking about putting in > a big patch and am trying to work out which varieties are the > earliest. > > anyway, i hope you get some rain over there. > > cheer > > anton >*--------------------------------------------------------------------* >This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for >the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If >you have received this email in error please notify the AusAID >Help Desk on +61 (0)2 6206 4666. Or email AusAID_Help!!@ausaid.gov.au > >This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked >for the presence of computer viruses before transmission. >*--------------------------------------------------------------------* > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 15:53:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21900 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02656; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:42:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02024 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:36:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from digger.excite.com ([199.172.152.82]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990810193555.FHHW530.fortune@digger.excite.com> for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:35:55 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Sweet Melons Message-Id: <934313756.22919.801@excite.com> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 12:35:56 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.172 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 Melons need lots of water early on and when they reach 3/2 size reduce water and after you harvest the first one stop watering all together. They also seem to groove on heat a lot. Most of our canteloups got eaten by deer when they were two weeks old so we are late on harvest but have many fine looking cantloups and some funky looking water melons from lack of rain. we are growing 3 types of each- Watermelons are sangria (sweet even before fully ripe), yellow doll (pretty package but haven't eaten one yet)and moon and stars (the coolest looking water melon in the patch and they taste good too) Canteloups-chantrais (actually a french melon, first time for it) hearts of golds (the deer ate all but two plants and of course this was the seed we had no extra, supposed to be a great tasting heirloom from MI) and amish (deer took only a few because we have about 4lbs of seed for this type, nice tasting to incredible tasting-depending on growing conditions). We found that the melons love IRT mulch and row covers on hoops for the cool nights. We had not put the row covers on the night the plants were taken we were too busy it seems doing other things like weeding, seeding harvesting, marketing, so it didn't get done. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 17:58:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25335 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13465; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:47:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12899 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-32.raex.com [216.196.24.32]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02087 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <005901bee378$b20671a0$2018c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: certification inspection Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:38:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 Hello, Just a quick anxious note. Today is the day that our organic certification inspection takes place. I laughed when I realized what I am anxious about and I thought of this list. Not the farm, not our sustainablity, or ecological correctness, but. . . my housekeeping. I just know I will have to end up letting these folks into my house! And since we are on week#11of our CSA we have had weeks to get to the state (of housekeeping chaos) we are in today. I just know they will be compassionate and focus on all that brush-hogging we did this morning rather than the kitchen floor. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm Northeast Ohio From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 21:02:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29154 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27006; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:51:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26559 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:44:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA08924; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:43:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-25.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.25) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008879; Tue Aug 10 19:43:18 1999 Message-ID: <003601bee2c9$32e00a80$19fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "carol busson" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: certification inspection Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 20:42:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 510 Laugh out loud Carol. Sun. my members don't come until 2. So I did a little this and that. Picked a few things. Got dishes in dishwasher. Looked around kitchen was going to straighten up, got sidetracked into something (must have been important) and never got back. Yup some guy had to bring his daughter in. I didn't think till it was too late I should have brought her in. Oh well he went into total chaos. The bathroom it self was ok. Last wed a Mom and her two kids came in they come in about every wed. so I've gotten used to them (I don't think housework is her top priority either). But last Wed my son heard her son (about 6) say that my house was messier than their apartment! I hope they come in tomorrow while not perfect, it never is, its much better! Good luck in your certification. Beth -----Original Message----- From: carol busson To: CSA list Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 5:41 PM Subject: certification inspection >Hello, > >Just a quick anxious note. Today is the day that our organic certification >inspection takes place. I laughed when I realized what I am anxious about >and I thought of this list. Not the farm, not our sustainablity, or >ecological correctness, but. . . my housekeeping. I just know I will have >to end up letting these folks into my house! And since we are on week#11of >our CSA we have had weeks to get to the state (of housekeeping chaos) we >are in today. I just know they will be compassionate and focus on all that >brush-hogging we did this morning rather than the kitchen floor. > >Carol Busson >Dragonfly Farm >Northeast Ohio > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 21:14:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29300 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA28109; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:03:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27699; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 19:58:10 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id 5JJPa22755 (14442); Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <799230b1.24e2244c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:56:44 EDT Subject: Re: certification inspection To: busson@raex.com, owner-csa-l@prairienet.org, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 511 Have a nice place under an apple tree with a picnic table? Bring all your relevant paperwork out there, some paperweights and a pitcher of iced tea. Your inspector will not complain and probably will not ask to come in unless there is some reason to suspect you are keeping your malathion under your bed. LZ PaOrganic From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 10 21:37:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29692 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA00243; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:26:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29831 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:20:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.2.170 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:20:24 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: certification inspection Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 18:57:06 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0c9962420010b89CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 512 >Have a nice place under an apple tree with a picnic table? Bring all your >relevant paperwork out there, some paperweights and a pitcher of iced tea. >Your inspector will not complain and probably will not ask to come in unless >there is some reason to suspect you are keeping your malathion under your bed. >LZ There is absolutely no relief like having somebody come up with an alternative solution to an unsolvable problem ..... Toni From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 11 11:46:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20850 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29130; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:34:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28839 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:31:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hippie.excite.com ([198.3.99.13]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990811153057.WOQ7470.gigi@hippie.excite.com> for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:30:57 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: certification inspection Message-Id: <934385455.13810.915@excite.com> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:30:55 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.214 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 Wow, and to think I actually shoveled the kitchen table and floor off a few weeks ago for the inspector. I like the table under the apple tree though ours were dropping quite a few that day (and now most are picked except the late ones). Could of addled either of us if we got hit on the noggin. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 11 12:16:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21569 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03947; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:05:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03757 for ; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:03:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pounce.excite.com ([199.172.152.99]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990811160256.SIN300.ewey@pounce.excite.com>; Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:02:56 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Scott D. Epter" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: certification inspection Message-Id: <934387376.21365.569@excite.com> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:02:56 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.214 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 514 On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:58:22 -0400, Scott D. Epter wrote: > > = late ones). Could of addled either of us if we got hit on the noggin. > > addle vb ad-dled; ad-dling \'ad-li{nj}, -)el-i{nj}\ vt > (1712) > :to throw into confusion: CONFOUND > > [ME adel filth, fr. OE adela; akin to MLG adele liquid manure] > > How appropriate a word to post to a CSA list considering its origin! :) > shoot, I made a pun and didn't even know it! Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 13 14:01:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20331 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10021; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.whidbey.com (mail.whidbey.com [204.94.52.241]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08384 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.94.53.180] (b3-53-180.whidbey.com [204.94.53.180]) by mail1.whidbey.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22543 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: advantages to ag zoning Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 515 We have recently been appointed to a committee that will advise our county commissioners on the type of zoning that would protect farmland in Island county. Our county submitted a comprehensive plan that was rejected by the state's growth management board, and part of that rejection was because the plan did too little to protect agricultural land. The committee is made up of people from various factions - "property rights alliance', environmental action groups, conservationists, a planning board member and a few farmers. The farmers seem to be folks who inherited family farms and are now some of the largest land holders in our county. They are a mixed lot as to the success and type of their farming operations. I was the only 'small'farmer( approx. 20 acres) appointed although I've found one more to join me. A side issue is that the "property rights" people seem to feel that if, at 20 acres, I have the zoning protections that the 40+ acre holdings have I'm somehow getting away with something. I think they fear that buffers will be a part of the zoning code, and that if we allow ag zoning on parcels of 1 acre on up, that too many surrounding property owners will be affected. Just making the point that agricultural endeavors on a small plot are possible is difficult in this room. We have almost 20 acres, but only 2-3 of those are cultivated. Several of the larger farm owners are interested only in protecting the development value of their land - others say that unless their land has development potential, it is useless as collateral in the farming debt game. Some want to be able to divide their land among their family members, creating smaller plots with development potential. Some are interested in the idea of being able to sell housing lots in a clustered area of poor soil within their holdings. There is discussion of purchased development rights and transferred development rights. This committee meets for only one more week, and zoning of "agricultural lands of long term commercial significance" seems to be the only type of "protection" being offered farmers. They see the commercial agriculture zoning as restrictive rather than protective. Do any of you have experience with resolving these issues - it seems to me there must be some way to value agriculture land as the increasingly rare resource that it is, rather than for its development potential. There must be a way to protect small farmers and large ones alike (dubbed intensive and extensive ag) Most of these guys (yes the big farmers are all male) like farming, and would prefer to keep on doing it if the political and financial climate allows them to. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 13 15:08:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22361 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA15524; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:55:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15444 for ; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:54:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA29876; Fri, 13 Aug 1999 13:54:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1c-80.ix.netcom.com(209.110.250.80) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029850; Fri Aug 13 13:53:58 1999 Message-ID: <000601bee5bd$14882940$50fa6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "Petersons Family" Subject: Re: advantages to ag zoning Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:53:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 516 >I live in Massachusetts and they have had a "tax break" program in place for quite some time 20+ years. Farms can be placed in Chapter61A (wooded areas 61 B I believe). You are then taxed significantly less than at developement rates. If you choose to sell you have to pay back taxes for a set number of years I think but am not sure that its about 10. You also must inform your town officials that you are going to sell and the town has first right of refusal. Meaning some guy with a big wade of money comes forward you tell the town you have x offer and they much match. Of course it must be a real offer no shinanigans. I assume the wooded land is the same. This tax break is probably a huge reason we still have the farm. The tax bill may have forced my father in law to sell off years ago. I don't know what sort of aceage is necessary to qualify. The "farm" regulations are loose (I mean that in a good way) includes stuff like mink farms etc. If you want the details I think I can find them on the web. Our town has NO interest at this point in buying our development rights. They TALK about open space and do nothing but issue building permits. Even the land they have purchased with a $5 million blessing of the towns people has the fine print that it can be used for anything the town (officials) want. Good luck states nation wide are going to have to get creative if they want any open spaces left. Beth snip Do any of you have experience with resolving these issues - it seems to me >there must be some way to value agriculture land as the increasingly rare >resource that it is, rather than for its development potential. There must >be a way to protect small farmers and large ones alike (dubbed intensive >and extensive ag) Most of these guys (yes the big farmers are all male) >like farming, and would prefer to keep on doing it if the political and >financial climate allows them to. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 17 03:22:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10803 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA25762; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:10:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA25605 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:08:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [12.73.96.77] by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19990817070753.WVEA15884@[12.73.96.77]> for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:07:53 +0000 Message-ID: <023a01bee880$ea343320$c178490c@ELN/cyberbamm> From: "Garth Bammer" To: "CSA List" Subject: ComposTumbler Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:08:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01E0_01BEE844.9A6CE300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 517 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01E0_01BEE844.9A6CE300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been receiving marketing material from the ComposTumbler company = about their product, a composter which rotates on gears and has = (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat the raw = compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but = wanted (my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if = anyone on the List has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost = pile vs. a "cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on = squash vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that = detritis available for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid = turnaround is advantageous for homemade organic compost year-round. But = perhaps there are other methods or even products available which = accomplish these same goals? Thanks for your replies -- Laura Bammer "CSA wanna-be" Renton, Washington ------=_NextPart_000_01E0_01BEE844.9A6CE300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I have been receiving marketing = material from=20 the ComposTumbler company about their product, a composter which rotates = on=20 gears and has (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat = the raw=20 compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but = wanted=20 (my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on = the List=20 has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile vs. a=20 "cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on = squash=20 vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis = available=20 for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is = advantageous=20 for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are other = methods or=20 even products available which accomplish these same goals?
     
    Thanks for your replies --
    Laura Bammer
    "CSA=20 wanna-be"
    Renton, Washington
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_01E0_01BEE844.9A6CE300-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 17 03:39:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA10982 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA26709; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:28:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA26650 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 02:28:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.207.69.66] (dialup001.serv.net [207.207.69.66]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA27631 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908170728.AAA27631@mx.serv.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:41:42 -0700 Subject: Re: ComposTumbler From: "Adam Gottschalk" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3017695302_2846976_MIME_Part" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 518 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3017695302_2846976_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Laurie, Don't know how big this tumbler is, but to a great degree it depends on the volume of compost you're needing to deal with. If for example you're a biointensive type who is literally growing crops just to compost them, you probably want to create simple, huge piles and just let them sit. The thing about a constant supply then just becomes an issue of always having at least one huge pile ready and others in the works (i.e., it takes a while to really get going). If you build the piles big enough (say five by twenty, and at least four feet high) the heat thing will take care of itself. Another common plot is to create several bins out of, for example, old wooden shipping pallettes. These can be three sided bins with no tops, surrounding earth which you've churned up a bit. The bins should be side by side. You then proceed every so often to move each pile, with shovel, fork, etc., into the next bin in the series, until coming out of the final stage is the black stuff ready for beds. To see if things are hot enough, just use a long compost-pile thermometer. If not hot enough, then move/turn the stuff, or pile it up higher, or add some hot material. If you're sure to add proper amounts of N-heavy material with Carbon-heavy material and enough soil, heat won't be trouble. My experience is compost "products" are entirely unnecessary. What's needed is compost "wisdom." Good luck, Adam ---------- From: "Garth Bammer" To: "CSA List" Subject: ComposTumbler Date: Tue, Aug 17, 1999, 00:08 I have been receiving marketing material from the ComposTumbler company about their product, a composter which rotates on gears and has (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat the raw compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but wanted (my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on the List has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile vs. a "cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on squash vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis available for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is advantageous for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are other methods or even products available which accomplish these same goals? Thanks for your replies -- Laura Bammer "CSA wanna-be" Renton, Washington --MS_Mac_OE_3017695302_2846976_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: ComposTumbler Laurie,

    Don't know how big this tumbler is, but to a great degree it depends on the= volume of compost you're needing to deal with. If for example you're a bioi= ntensive type who is literally growing crops just to compost them, you proba= bly want to create simple, huge piles and just let them sit. The thing about= a constant supply then just becomes an issue of always having at least one = huge pile ready and others in the works (i.e., it takes a while to really ge= t going). If you build the piles big enough (say five by twenty, and at leas= t four feet high) the heat thing will take care of itself.

    Another common plot is to create several bins out of, for example, old wood= en shipping pallettes. These can be three sided bins with no tops, surroundi= ng earth which you've churned up a bit. The bins should be side by side. You= then proceed every so often to move each pile, with shovel, fork, etc., int= o the next bin in the series, until coming out of the final stage is the bla= ck stuff ready for beds.

    To see if things are hot enough, just use a long compost-pile thermometer. = If not hot enough, then move/turn the stuff, or pile it up higher, or add so= me hot material. If you're sure to add proper amounts of N-heavy material wi= th Carbon-heavy material and enough soil, heat won't be trouble.

    My experience is compost "products" are entirely unnecessary. Wha= t's needed is compost "wisdom."

    Good luck,
    Adam
    ----------
    From: "Garth Bammer" <cyberbamm@worldnet.att.net>
    To: "CSA List" <csa-l@prairienet.org>
    Subject: ComposTumbler
    Date: Tue, Aug 17, 1999, 00:08


    I have been receiving marketing material from th= e ComposTumbler company about their product, a composter which rotates on ge= ars and has (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat the r= aw compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but wa= nted (my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on = the List has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile v= s. a "cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on s= quash vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis av= ailable for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is adv= antageous for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are oth= er methods or even products available which accomplish these same goals?
     
    Thanks for your replies --
    Laura Bammer
    "CSA wanna-be"
    Renton, Washington
     
     

    --MS_Mac_OE_3017695302_2846976_MIME_Part-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 17 09:43:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15533 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16513; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16402 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:31:04 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:31:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908171331.IAA16402@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 17682 invoked from network); 17 Aug 1999 13:30:29 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-127.iquest.net (209.43.47.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Aug 1999 13:30:29 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Garth Bammer" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: ComposTumbler Cc: "CSA List" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 519 A farmer friend of mine bought one. She hates it and would sell it if someone offered her anything for it. The problem is that the material youput in must be shredded pretty finely or it takes a long time to break down. If you'd like to talk to her about its good and bad points I can send you her email address. Too bad you're not closer--she'd probably give it to you free just to haul it away... At 12:08 AM 8/17/99 -0700, Garth Bammer wrote: >I have been receiving marketing material from the ComposTumbler company about their product, a composter which rotates on gears and has (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat the raw compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but wanted (my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on the List has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile vs. a "cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on squash vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis available for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is advantageous for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are other methods or even products available which accomplish these same goals? > >Thanks for your replies -- >Laura Bammer >"CSA wanna-be" >Renton, Washington > > > > > > > > > > >
    I have been receiving marketing material from >the ComposTumbler company about their product, a composter which rotates on >gears and has (allegedly) optimal vents and structural materials to heat the raw >compost up and decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but wanted >(my intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on the List >has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile vs. a >"cool" compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on squash >vines etc. that have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis available >for composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is advantageous >for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are other methods or >even products available which accomplish these same goals?
    >
     
    >
    Thanks for your replies --
    >
    Laura Bammer
    >
    "CSA >wanna-be"
    >
    Renton, Washington
    >
     
    >
     
    > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 17 11:32:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18014 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26955; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:21:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f77.hotmail.com [209.185.131.140]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26835 for ; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:20:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 3089 invoked by uid 0); 17 Aug 1999 15:19:46 -0000 Message-ID: <19990817151946.3088.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:19:44 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: cyberbamm@worldnet.att.net, csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: ComposTumbler Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:19:44 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 520 The ComposTumbler as I see it is too expensive. I made my own out of a plastic barrel which I vented and put a large door in the side for loading and unloading the material. It is true that you can get finished compost quicker this way; however, I have found that if you don't run your material through a shredder first, then it takes longer than the two weeks they are touting. I have been able to have a turn around of about 18 - 21 days. But remember, you have to turn it everyday. Also, the amount of finished product for these tumblers doesn't go very far due to their limited size. I am in the designing stage now for a tumbler that will use a 500 gallon drum. If you are interested in making your own tumbler, I'd be glad to share info about my smaller tumbler. >From: "Garth Bammer" >To: "CSA List" >Subject: ComposTumbler >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:08:15 -0700 > >I have been receiving marketing material from the ComposTumbler company >about their product, a composter which rotates on gears and has (allegedly) >optimal vents and structural materials to heat the raw compost up and >decompose it rapidly. I'm interested in the product but wanted (my >intention here is not to ADVERTISE the thing!) to see if anyone on the List >has experience with it. Certainly, a "hot" compost pile vs. a "cool" >compost pile would kill the fungi and other pests on squash vines etc. that >have been recently discussed, leaving that detritis available for >composting and NOT just burning. And the rapid turnaround is advantageous >for homemade organic compost year-round. But perhaps there are other >methods or even products available which accomplish these same goals? > >Thanks for your replies -- >Laura Bammer >"CSA wanna-be" >Renton, Washington > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 23 02:24:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24957 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 02:24:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA23282; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:13:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from saturn.ausaid.gov.au (saturn.ausaid.gov.au [202.6.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA23123 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 01:10:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: by saturn.ausaid.gov.au; id QAA00167; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:09:55 +1000 (EST) Received: from degas.ausaid.gov.au(202.6.37.150) by saturn.ausaid.gov.au via smap (V4.2) id xma029987; Mon, 23 Aug 99 16:09:34 +1000 Received: from ccMail by degas.ausaid.gov.au (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 0011919E; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:07:42 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:07:17 +1100 Message-ID: <0011919E.005013@ausaid.gov.au> From: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au (Anton Vikstrom) Subject: Tasmania CSA To: "Garth Bammer" , "CSA List" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 521 Does anyone know of a CSA serving Hobart in Tasmania? Cheers Anton *--------------------------------------------------------------------* This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the AusAID Help Desk on +61 (0)2 6206 4666. Or email AusAID_Help!!@ausaid.gov.au This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses before transmission. *--------------------------------------------------------------------* From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 23 22:09:48 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18245 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA21729; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:58:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server.norex.com.au (server.norex.com.au [203.34.220.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21608 for ; Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:57:12 -0500 (CDT) From: isis@norex.com.au Received: from athena (ts-2-p2.norex.com.au [203.34.220.50]) by server.norex.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA07295 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:57:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990824112600.009162e0@norex.com.au> X-Sender: isis@norex.com.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:26:00 +1000 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: CSA in Hobart Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 522 Anton, Yes there is CSA operating in Hobart. Mark Patton has been running one for a couple of years, he is based next to a Steiner school in Kingston(I think). I have not been there, but he gave talk at our annual BD group about his CSA. Hope this helps. Jenny From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 07:13:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24104 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA23230; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:01:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA23062 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 05:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.166.84] (pm3mbr1-166-32.intrepid.net [209.190.166.32]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05853 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:59:31 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:04:36 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 523 Hi! For the first year CSA, would you share with me how your price tomatoes by the bushel for your memebers? (I guess I should make it clear that we did not sell all of our shares this year.) Pricing for picked and u-pick w.b. most appreciated. (Our varities are essentially the Seeds of Change herilooms.) Thanks -Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA Charles Town, WV csa@claymont.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 08:49:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA24745 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA29597; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:37:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29465 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:36:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from erin.excite.com ([198.3.99.254]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990824123618.FBNP296.kuku@erin.excite.com> for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 05:36:18 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Message-Id: <935498177.201.539@excite.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 05:36:17 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.66 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 524 On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:04:36 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote: > Hi! > > For the first year CSA, would you share with me how your price tomatoes by > the bushel for your memebers? (I guess I should make it clear that we did > not sell all of our shares this year.) Pricing for picked and u-pick w.b. > most appreciated. (Our varities are essentially the Seeds of Change > herilooms.) > > Thanks > Right now wholesale price for certified tomatoes in Ohio is $1.00lb. A case/bushel weighs 25lbs. I don't know what U-pick would be. We have been getting about $1.10lb at the local farmers markets for certified tomatoes-all heirlooms, brandywines (pink and yellow), persimmon, opalka, Mr Stripy, yellow taxi, etc. we get about $2lb for sungold & yellow pear cherry tomatoes. > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 09:20:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25059 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02063; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:08:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com (smtp.thestreet.com [208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01972 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:08:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([209.122.227.179]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:47:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990824090845.00f0cac4@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:08:59 +0000 To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 525 Here in the Pacific Northwest--where growing tomatoes is a struggle and a leap of faith (blight man cometh)--we've found that retail prices are higher. At the farmer's market we sell heirlooms and hybrids alike for $3/pound. And small tomatoes like sungold for $3 per pint. We sell out (+/- 100 pounds) in a few hours. We all are desperate for fresh tomatoes around here and as a result, demand is high. Our guys are priced a little higher than some of the neighboring stands. Others sell heirlooms for $3/pound and hybrids/paste tomatoes for half that. On the wholesale front, we have a standing offer to sell to the local coop at $3 a pound. Good luck. -- Jeff The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 05:36 AM 8/24/99 PDT, Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote: >On Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:04:36 -0400, Allan Balliett wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> For the first year CSA, would you share with me how your price tomatoes >by >> the bushel for your memebers? (I guess I should make it clear that we did >> not sell all of our shares this year.) Pricing for picked and u-pick w.b. >> most appreciated. (Our varities are essentially the Seeds of Change >> herilooms.) >> >> Thanks >> >Right now wholesale price for certified tomatoes in Ohio is $1.00lb. A >case/bushel weighs 25lbs. I don't know what U-pick would be. We have been >getting about $1.10lb at the local farmers markets for certified >tomatoes-all heirlooms, brandywines (pink and yellow), persimmon, opalka, Mr >Stripy, yellow taxi, etc. we get about $2lb for sungold & yellow pear cherry >tomatoes. >> > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 10:57:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26739 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:57:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10955; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:45:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10790 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:44:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dotty.excite.com ([199.172.152.205]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990824144419.FQJO296.kuku@dotty.excite.com> for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:44:19 -0700 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: chickens.... Message-Id: <935505858.13611.718@excite.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:44:18 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.48.67 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 We have 15 chickens here on our farm and 2 have died. I don't know what made them sick, but their symptoms were a poopy butt and gradual loss of energy to even roost. If anyone has an idea on what it could be, please let me know, so if it's contagious I could control it. Thanks. ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 11:53:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27683 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA15939; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:42:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15850 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:41:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.130.30 (sa-165-227-130-30.cruzio.com [165.227.130.30]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id IAA02026; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37C25C87.1C41@mariquita.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:49:11 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: CSA list Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 527 In our 3 years of a 100+ member CSA, we have found that to give too much of something only hurt us in the end. Example: If in our $14/week share, we give out an extra free "$5 - $10" of tomatoes, the FOLLOWING week everyone wants to know why the share is so small. (We base our prices on the low end of farmers market prices) We do sometimes offer these kinds bounties, with a clear explanation in our newsletter. You could also offer a special picked bushel rate for would-be canners. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 12:00:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27823 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16657; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:49:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16567 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:48:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 11338 invoked from network); 24 Aug 1999 15:48:27 -0000 Received: from i48-46-10.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.9.74) (216.26.9.74) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Aug 1999 15:48:27 -0000 Message-ID: <37C2BF4B.6933@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 08:50:39 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allan Balliett CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 528 Here's the delimma: If you are a CSA (that is, members put up the money to run the farm, what grows is distributed evenly among the members - you share the risk of bad harvests and the bounty of good harvests) how do you have any tomatoes to sell to anyone? Don't they already belong to the members? If you have a "split" operation, i.e. some CSA, some market garden, how do you allocate resources during a bad year? E.g. if disease wipes out halpo of your tomatoes who doesn't get tomatoes? If market prices for tomatoes are really high do more tomatoes go to market at teh expense of members? In a good year do you split the market sales profits with members? In bad years do you ask them to make up for shortfalls? Hopw do you "share the risk/share the bounty" with a split operation? Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 12:44:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28480 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA23398; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:32:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23275 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:31:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA22647 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:31:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-245.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.245) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015282; Tue Aug 24 10:53:15 1999 Message-ID: <00c801beee48$a3c05720$98fe6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Re: chickens.... Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:52:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 529 Is the poop liquid. If so one disease is coccidiosis. I assume there are others that cause loose poop. I believe this is what I lost one chicken to. I have been medicating the rest with sulfur so far they are ok. This is self diagnosis so take with grain of salt. Also these chicks are primarily pets for our own use so there lose of "organic" status was unimportant. But I do have a question I read there needs to be a weaning of meat chickens that have been give sulfur and that it is not recommended for egg layers. Is there a weaning time for the eggs? We have two roster which we don't plan to eat (pets) unless they turn into attack chickens. The chickens are not yet laying. Is the sulfur not good to eat or is it taste? Another question are rhubarb leaves poison for chickens like humans and cows. I let the chickens out lots of grass etc. right into the rhubarb pecking away, gesh. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Teresa%2B Kohut To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 10:45 AM Subject: chickens.... >We have 15 chickens here on our farm and 2 have died. I don't know what made >them sick, but their symptoms were a poopy butt and gradual loss of energy >to even roost. If anyone has an idea on what it could be, please let me >know, so if it's contagious I could control it. Thanks. > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 12:59:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28721 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA24967; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:47:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24864 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:46:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA25892; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:44:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-245.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.245) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018801; Tue Aug 24 11:07:34 1999 Message-ID: <00d301beee4a$a3be4960$98fe6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "Allan Balliett" Cc: Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:06:30 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 We have been struggling with this as well. But I have read that members do not like being overwhelmed, food goes to waste they feel bad and this has led to not signing up again (info in a book of end of year surveys). We include a chart in our flyer of expected yields. We have been remiss in some high in others. We have been sharing the bounty and will not charge for baskets of extras for freezing etc. We feel that the extra tomatoes make up for a a bit less cucumbers. However we have not given our members every extra tomato. We sold a few wholesale and donated a few to a soup kitchen. So risk/bounty while there is some it is you might say managed. We also never advertised the sharing the risk aspect of CSA. I think this was discussed a while back. We had decided we would refund money if we ever got whipped out crop wise. Many flyers I have seen advertise "baskets" of veggies extra. Frankly I see nothing wrong with it. Our $350 membership is more than fair. Remember sustainable means the farmer can stay in business, keep land open, keep a local crop. Its hard work it does deserve respect . In modern society that usually means being paid a fair wage etc.and without a doubt in these our struggling early years we are not getting a fair wage, we think of course this will improve as we improve Beth -----Original Message----- From: Will Newman II To: Allan Balliett Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel >Here's the delimma: > >If you are a CSA (that is, members put up the money to run the farm, >what grows is distributed evenly among the members - you share the risk >of bad harvests and the bounty of good harvests) how do you have any >tomatoes to sell to anyone? Don't they already belong to the members? > >If you have a "split" operation, i.e. some CSA, some market garden, how >do you allocate resources during a bad year? E.g. if disease wipes out >halpo of your tomatoes who doesn't get tomatoes? If market prices for >tomatoes are really high do more tomatoes go to market at teh expense of >members? > >In a good year do you split the market sales profits with members? In >bad years do you ask them to make up for shortfalls? > >Hopw do you "share the risk/share the bounty" with a split operation? > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust >www.osalt.org > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 13:13:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28922 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26360; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26229 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:00:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.138.61 (sa-165-227-138-61.cruzio.com [165.227.138.61]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA26064; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37C26F16.4DD9@mariquita.com> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:08:23 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osalt@teleport.com CC: CSA list Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel References: <37C2BF4B.6933@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 531 This is an intersting topic: one we have discussed over our dinner table many times. The members are paying in to support the farm, but how much risk are they willing to take? This may be a geographical difference. In our area we 'compete' with great health food stores, many large and professional year-round farmers markets, as well as several CSA's right here in our own county. Here on the central California coast the public is spoiled with the possibility of year-round gardens, and even conventional supermarkets doing a great job on produce. (Nearly all of our local supermarkets have organic sections.) We've found people are not willing to take the risk with us, and what we offer is a service, including lots of education via the newsletter. I'm curious how other CSAs on this list share their bounty, Will asks some good questions. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 24 13:13:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28930 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26455; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:02:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26298 for ; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:01:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.224] [209.8.149.167] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A11A3EBC0150; Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:06:34 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00d301beee4a$a3be4960$98fe6ed1@dan> Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:00:30 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 532 What we do when the tomato deluge hits is we let our 200+ shares have 'all you can eat' After the first week of this. their eyes tend not to be larger than their stomachs. This only works because we do not prebag but let the shares pick their own veggies from the baskets. We also have 'pick for canning days' where the shareholders can come out and pick a bushel. It's hard to plant enough tomato plants to give you enough tomatoes in the beginning and end of the season and not too many in the middle. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 04:12:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA18169 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA11911; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:01:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.92]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA11114 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:59:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nt.ktg.gau.hu (nt.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.93]) by svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23643 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:49:21 -0100 (GMT) Received: from cdr (193.225.204.78) by nt.ktg.gau.hu (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:01:36 +0200 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:01:36 +0200 Message-ID: X-Sender: matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: osalt@teleport.com From: Matthew Hayes Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by/Risk sharing Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 533 Dear Will and CSA list Thanks for this discussion. This issue seems to be at the very core of what the CSA "movement" is all about. The problem of risk sharing I think can only be resolved when we take a long-term perspective, and realise that what CSA is about is partly supplying organic vegetables direct to consumers, but partly educating the public away from the boom/bust economics of agriculture. The aim of the CSA movement is, I beleive, to bring more ecological and economic stability to agriculture, with sustainability as an aim (I dislike using the term sustainable as it is so used up, but it's an important concept, nonetheless). Of course I'm preaching here to the converted here, and this is nothing new to people on the list, but I think we have to somewhere keep the long-term goal embedded somewhere at the back of our minds, to guide our daily actions. Having said this, we are also a "split" (compromised???) CSA - i.e. both supplying a consumer group and a farmers' market. I have to agree with Julia, that it tends to work against our interests next week or next year if we become too generous in one week, as the following weeks produce will inevitably be less abundant. Our solution (so far, but I'm interested in the other solutions people are offering), is to pack a good, solid, full box each week, offer some surplus produce for people to take away ad lib, and take the rest to market. In principle the CSA group always get priority of the harvest, but economics dictate that if we can sell produce at a good price at market, then some of the harvest is diverted that way. I do beleive good value is important for the CSA group members, as few of are members are committed enough to accept a low or zero harvest, and go on paying the share price (although we do have a few who probably would under exceptional conditions). The "educational" side of our work can only take place very slowly - as essentially by most people's standards, CSA marketing is very radical. I should add, that we are in a perhaps even more transitionary position than most groups in the US, as here in Hungary CSA is entirely new. This is our second year, and this year for the first time we've offered whole season shares to be paid in advance of the harvest. We've had about a 20% uptake of this, which given the novelty of the system, and the tight home economics prevalent in Hungary, I think this is a promising start. The rest of our members for this season will purchase their boxes weekly (with an advanced payment of one week), at a set rate which runs until the end of the season, irrespective of the contents of the box. This intermediate CSA system, is about as radical as the current local circumstances will allow, in my opinion. But for us, the CSA flag is being carried by you guys out there, who can develop ever more imaginative and innovative solutions. Greetings Matthew Hayes ============================================================================= Matthew Hayes Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management Godollo Agricultural University H-2103 Godollo Pater K.u.1. Hungary Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 Fax: ++36 28-415 383 E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 05:18:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA18535 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA09932; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:06:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09633 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:06:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.207.69.65] (dialup000.serv.net [207.207.69.65]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA14503 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908250906.CAA14503@mx.serv.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:19:44 -0700 Subject: Re: Risk sharing and Grain raising From: "Adam Gottschalk" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 534 Matthew I know it's kind of off topic, but the following issue is very significant in my eyes. You said: > what >CSA is about is partly supplying organic vegetables direct to consumers My assessments of history, economics, agriculture and ecology all lead me to believe strongly that when CSAs limit themselves to only vegetables, they necessarily limit themselves a great deal in their total potential impact. People don't live on vegetables. In fact, 70% of our calories and nutrition come either directly or indirectly from GRAINS. (I won't here get into controversial questions of the inefficiencies associated with feeding those grains to animals but...) Meat-eater and vegetarian alike--70% from grains. If CSAs want to really impact people's lives, beyond just supplying some salad vegetables in summer, they need to incorporate grains as a major part of their offerings (especially in the majority of the world outside of America and Europe where grain is directly still the foundation of the human diet as it should be.) On top of everything, grain residues are the premier source of carbonaceous material to be reincorporated into the soil to prevent soil erosion. In America we've lost more than 70% of the topsoil we had when European marauders first arrived; contrast this fact with the fact that all over the country today, corporate, agribusiness grain farmers BURN their residues and pour mass loads of petroleum-based nitrogen back into their ground, with no concern for carbon whatsoever (even the hydrocarbon pollution all their machinery, pesticides and fertilizers wash into the air and water). Now before anyone writes to tell me how impossible small-scale grain raising is...I just don't have time for that view. The histories of the world (and the experiences of many today, including myself) say small-scale grain raising is not only entirely possible *but abosolutely necessary* to counteract the continuing forces of concentration, capitalization, mechanization, chemicalization, biotechnology, etc. For my purposes it is not a question of whether or not it can be done, but how the CSA movement needs to be transformed to address this overwhelmingly important issue. Peace Adam ---------- >From: Matthew Hayes >To: osalt@teleport.com >Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by/Risk sharing >Date: Wed, Aug 25, 1999, 01:01 > >what >CSA is about is partly supplying organic vegetables direct to consumers From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 06:56:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19323 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA22735; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:45:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA22504 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:44:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990825104407.TASR530.fortune@ringo.excite.com> for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:44:07 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Risk sharing and Grain raising Message-Id: <935577848.21674.26@excite.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:44:08 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.60 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 535 > > >I think what the CSA is about is much more than supplying food-it is about supplying community which at least in the US where almost no one knows their neighbors, is as important as food. But Adam, I agree with you that grains should be grown on small holdings. We grow rye and sweet corn and want to start growing wheat, soy and feed corn for us and our poultry but have yet to figure out how to fit all of that onto under 5 acres along with the fruits and vegetables. Last year we had a few members very interested in our rye and dried sweet corn for milling but I don't know if the majority of CSAers would be thrilled about getting 10lb of wheat seed or whole corn and having to procees the grains themselves (how many folks own or can borrow a home grain mill?) and it would be a problem for most CSA's to buy the equipment to do the processing for the members. I am finding with members it is strange enough for them to have to deal with raw veggies and fruits much less a grain that isn't already made into bread or something. Remember we live in a society where about 90% of the food dollar goes to processed foods-either thru eating out or home heated food (referred to as home made by the FDA, but I cannot called anything precooked that comes out of a bag "homemade"). I guess the grain thing will work with a few years of education both grower and consumer. There is little better than using freshly milled grains in baking-Yum! Another great crop, along grain, lines is dried beans-we normally grow about 3/4acre of various heirloom beans such as black turtle, anasazi, calypso and tiger's eye. These are easy to harvest and fairly easy to hand clean Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 07:35:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19493 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:35:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA09803; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09235 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:22:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA26633; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:22:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-203.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.203) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026590; Wed Aug 25 06:21:33 1999 Message-ID: <015801beeeeb$de65eea0$98fe6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , Subject: Grain raising/dried beans Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:20:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 536 Lucy you took the words out of my mouth. Grain Raising on a small scale I no doubt believe is possible, but most of my CSA are suburbanites. They want pesticides free food, many shop only at Health Food Stores. Yet most did not know what a "broccoli" looked like growing for example. As Lucy said a "huge" minority of my local population could I see dealing with whole or even milled grains. Farmer effort in consumer appreciation out would not be equal. At this time of year after working long hours that equation, when considering a new crop is important to us. Lucy you mention dry beans. I have kidney and azuki as we speak can you give me a quick "lesson" in picking a drying. Thank-you snip thrilled about getting 10lb of wheat seed or whole corn and having to >procees the grains themselves (how many folks own or can borrow a home grain >mill?) and it would be a problem for most CSA's to buy the equipment to do >the processing for the members. I am finding with members it is strange >enough for them to have to deal with raw veggies and fruits much less a >grain that isn't already made into bread or something. Remember we live in a >society where about 90% of the food dollar goes to processed foods-either >thru eating out or home heated food (referred to as home made by the FDA, >but I cannot called anything precooked that comes out of a bag "homemade"). >I guess the grain thing will work with a few years of education both grower >and consumer. There is little better than using freshly milled grains in >baking-Yum! > >Another great crop, along grain, lines is dried beans-we normally grow about >3/4acre of various heirloom beans such as black turtle, anasazi, calypso and >tiger's eye. These are easy to harvest and fairly easy to hand clean > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 10:03:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21772 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07578; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:51:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06791 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:50:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.166.243] (pm3mbr3-166-112.intrepid.net [209.190.166.112]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17109 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:41:51 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <015801beeeeb$de65eea0$98fe6ed1@dan> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:46:23 -0400 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 537 Everybody is probably aware of this by now, but I will post it again because it is so appropriate. At the Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Food and Farming conference, OCT 1-3, in Charles Town, WV, one of the threads of lectures and workshops will be 'Small Scale Small Grain production.' Organized by appropriate agriculture technology guru, Eugen Canales (see his article on this topic in the September ACRES), this discussion at the conference will feature presentations by Greg Shultz, founder and director of NewFarms, an initiative in the Santa Fe area that in the past couple of years has organized local farmers into a small grain cooperative. They now jointly own their own bakery! The upshot is that small scale growers are making the same prices at their own gates that the wholesalers used to get in the cities. (Much of the equipment appropriate for grain work is also appropriate for working with dried beans, I understand.) Gene Logsdon has said 'If you can't grow grains, you're simply growing salad and you will never be truly independent.' I have to concur with that. I'll do what I can to see that the workshops and presentations at this year's confence get taped for those who can't attend. It would be wonderful, however, if as many as possible will attend and contribute to the discussion, which will also include Steve and Carol Moore of the NE Robyn Van En CSA Resource Center. (Steve will also do a workshop on commercial passive solar greenhouse design and production.) You can get more information on the many other speakers at the conference at http:www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf or by emailing me directly. Thanks -Allan Balliett csa@claymont.org =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 10:10:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21873 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:10:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA10685; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:58:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from waddle.excite.com (waddle-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.222]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10388 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:58:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from canyon.excite.com ([199.172.152.178]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990825123048.KZQX7470.gigi@canyon.excite.com> for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:30:48 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: dried beans Message-Id: <935584247.19726.203@excite.com> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:30:47 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.81 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 538 Dried beans are super easy. Just let them dry in the field until the pods are just about to burst open, a few will have done this already spreading beans on the ground. At this point you can either pick the beans off of the plant or pull the whole plant and get the pods off of the plants at a later time. We put the pods in paper bags and put them up in the attic (which is a huge dehydrator during the spring/summer/fall) to dry more until we are ready to clean the beans (this could be up to 3 months). Cleaning the beans is easy but time consuming. Simply take a bag of beans in pods and start shelling, much like peas. I believe there are human powered devices to do this task and speed it up considerably but I don't know what they are or where you'd get it. To speed things up I will put on gloves and start crushing the pods in the bag and than using the wind (or a fan is the weather is still) I will winnow the pod chaff from the beans by putting crushed pods and beans in a shallow pan, like a pie plate and tossing the the beans and chaff it the air, letting the wind take the chaff away. Store the beans in air tight containers in a cool place. Unfortunately this year I won't be cleaning too many beans as the Ohio drought pretty much did in all the beans on our farm and at this point, while the plants are still alive they have few pods on them and I doubt the pods have much in them. > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 14:00:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26579 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15654; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:48:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cwb.ca ([205.200.215.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15534 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:47:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mint.cwb.ca id <26918>; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:55:26 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: CWB From: "Pat Elazar" To: "Dan Hook" cc: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Message-Id: <99Aug25.125526cdt.26918@mint.cwb.ca> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:44:44 -0500 Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 539 Beth said: But even suburbanites buy bread machines! Out this way, due to the short growing season, many CSA's offer stuff that can be stored, dried or preserved easily & pulses and cereals fall into that category. You don't even have to raise grains on a small scale if you don't want to.- Dori & others on this list have spoken of regional alliances both formal & informal to swap produce for specialty grains & fruits. Just make sure you let your subscribers know where their stuff is coming from... Alan Said: I don't think I'd go that far. Most people are not looking for total self-sufficiency- just reduced amounts of pesticide in their food. The kinds of cross-farm alliances suggested above, would allow producers to specialise in what they want to grow & subscribers to get a tremendous variety of produce. BTW, my 13-year-old just came back from summer camp. He was the only one on his canoe trip who'd ever eaten kidney beans before (not to mention home-made flat bread baked on the fire) ! Most of his pals eat nothing at home but instant macaroni & cheese and take-out pizza. Your subscribers are already a LONG LONG way from the dismal norm.... From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 19:07:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03517 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15797; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:56:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15560 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:55:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-146.premier1.net [207.149.54.146]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id PAA20569 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908252251.PAA20569@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:57:06 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: re-chickens X-Confirm-Reading-To: mjb@mail.premier1.net X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 540 There are so many diseases with the symptoms you describe that I am hesitant to even give you an opionion. However, if you have anymore sick chickens isolate them immediately. Most likely the infection will be transmitted through feces. Are your chickens confined or free-range, is there standing water anywhere where they can get to for instance around their waterer, do you feed on the ground? Let me know and I can help you figure out what to do to keep the infection from spreading. I've been raising organic chickens, meat and layer for many, many years and have figured out solutions to some, but not all problems. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Aug 25 19:33:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA04176 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA22785; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:21:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA22662 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:21:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA24350 for ; Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:20:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2d-124.ix.netcom.com(209.110.255.124) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024323; Wed Aug 25 18:20:21 1999 Message-ID: <002801beef50$4ba0bcc0$7cff6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" Cc: Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:19:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 541 >Alan Said: >salad and you will never be truly independent.' I have to concur with that.> >I don't think I'd go that far. Most people are not looking for total >self-sufficiency- just reduced amounts of pesticide in their food. The kinds of >cross-farm alliances suggested above, would allow producers to specialise in >what they want to grow & subscribers to get a tremendous variety of produce. >Pat said: >BTW, my 13-year-old just came back from summer camp. He was the only one on his >canoe trip who'd ever eaten kidney beans before (not to mention home-made flat >bread baked on the fire) ! Most of his pals eat nothing at home but instant >macaroni & cheese and take-out pizza. Your subscribers are already a LONG LONG >way from the dismal norm.... > Pat you are right about the above. In the big picture I have a good group. I read in the book Sharing the Harvest (good book by the way) that one CSA owner could tell if a member was one that would sign up again but how they cooked. Basically if they liked to sort of experiment throw in what ever was available they and CSA were a good match. If they were not an imaginative cook then they and CSA were not likely to be a good match. I thought that was a good observation. I love the people who tell me "I threw a little of this in with a little of this and it was great". I had one lady tell me she like the "unknown" of her weekly basket, saved her from having to decide what to buy (she was raised on a small farm, so she not the best example :) ). And a few of my people are vegetarians. So as a group they are ahead of the pizza instant food group. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 02:29:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08836 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 02:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA04187; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:18:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.92]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03946 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 01:17:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nt.ktg.gau.hu (nt.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.93]) by svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA25649 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:07:57 -0100 (GMT) Received: from cdr (193.225.204.78) by nt.ktg.gau.hu (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:20:19 +0200 Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:20:19 +0200 Message-ID: X-Sender: matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Dan Hook" From: Matthew Hayes Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 542 Dear Beth Could you please let me know from where I can order a copy of the book you mention, "Sharing the Harvest"? Many thanks Matthew ============================================================================= Matthew Hayes Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management Godollo Agricultural University H-2103 Godollo Pater K.u.1. Hungary Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 Fax: ++36 28-415 383 E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 08:56:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11738 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA25786; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:44:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA25103 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:43:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA05596; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:42:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2d-124.ix.netcom.com(209.110.255.124) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005500; Thu Aug 26 07:42:09 1999 Message-ID: <004001beefc0$52257b60$7cff6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Matthew Hayes" Cc: Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:41:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 543 Matthew, Amazingly enough I bought it at a Borders book store. I couldn't believe it was there. I buy few books, I have a thing for the library. However I like reference type books and I figured my library would never get this book. Although they have the Contrary Farmer by Gene Logsdon pretty good book as well. I paid 25is for the Sharing the Harvest book. Info that may help Sharing the Harvest by Elizabeth Henderson with Robyn Van En published by Chelsea Green Publishing Company PO Box 428 White River Junction Vt 05001 www.chelseagreen.com It got some funding from Sare www.uvm.edu/~nesare/ Beth -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hayes To: Dan Hook Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans >Dear Beth > >Could you please let me know from where I can order a copy of the book you >mention, "Sharing the Harvest"? > >Many thanks >Matthew >=========================================================================== == > >Matthew Hayes >Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management >Godollo Agricultural University >H-2103 Godollo >Pater K.u.1. >Hungary >Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 >Fax: ++36 28-415 383 >E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 09:44:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12452 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15132; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:33:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14826 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:32:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.166.87] (pm3mbr2-166-106.intrepid.net [209.190.166.106]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27295; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:32:41 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <37C47DD1.763E2EB7@home.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:37:52 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Cc: Jay Woods Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 544 >I sure need to know about the equipment for grain work. I'm working up to a >couple of acres of small grains, lentils, and beans. ---Jay Jay (and others!), I apologize, I didn't do the last post correctly. The article by Eugene Canales which will appear in the September ACRES USA (not out yet!) is available as a page that you can link to from the 4th Annual Mid-Atlantic Food and Farming Conference http://www.igg.com/bdnow/bdconf (let me know if you have difficulty finding this page. The pictures are available as links from the parts of the article which discuss them.) I hope this is more helpful! Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA, Charles Town, WV BIODYNAMICS Now! Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 11:08:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14219 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA15393; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:57:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from baldr.metro.net (smtp1.metro.net [205.217.52.128]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA15002 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:56:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ig136.5.dial.innovation.com (ig136.5.dial.innovation.com [209.249.5.136]) by baldr.metro.net (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ac0i) with ESMTP id ga911982 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:14:50 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990826145344.03735578@mail.metro.net> X-Sender: ctbowland@mail.metro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 07:53:44 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Chris & Tanya Bowland Subject: Re: Grain raising/dried beans Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 545 That book is available online. Amazon.com carries it. I will be using it this Fall for a class I am teaching. BTW this leads me to announce that for any of you in Northern California, I will be teaching a course this fall on CSA's at the Santa Rosa Junior College. It is one of the new courses being offered in the Ecological Ag curriculum. It will be 8 weeks and start with history and structure, then go into crop planning and share pricing. Respond to me individually if interested. Chris At 08:20 AM 8/26/99 +0200, you wrote: >Dear Beth > >Could you please let me know from where I can order a copy of the book you >mention, "Sharing the Harvest"? > >Many thanks >Matthew >============================================================================= > >Matthew Hayes >Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management >Godollo Agricultural University >H-2103 Godollo >Pater K.u.1. >Hungary >Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 >Fax: ++36 28-415 383 >E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 18:25:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25510 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00795; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:14:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA00660 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:13:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:13:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908262213.RAA00660@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 24730 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 22:12:49 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-100.iquest.net (209.43.55.100) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 22:12:49 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: organic farms Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 546 >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net >From: ediemay@webtv.net >X-WebTV-Signature: 1 > ETAsAhRiGxAotJspQpBdABArWfv0kD99twIUazKKtEb+DFLxiGmaMCleZ93wO80= >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:03:12 -0400 (EDT) >To: cvof@iquest.net >Subject: organic farms >Content-Disposition: Inline > >Dear Sir, >Do you know of any organic farms located near New York City or Long >Island? If so, please send their addresses. Thanks. EM Greenwood > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 18:45:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26036 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02574; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:33:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA02503 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:33:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908262233.RAA02503@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 15053 invoked from network); 26 Aug 1999 22:33:31 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-100.iquest.net (209.43.55.100) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 26 Aug 1999 22:33:31 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: osalt@teleport.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Cc: Allan Balliett , csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 547 I have a "split operation, BUT... The CSA members here do not "share" the entire expenses of operating this farm. I know in some cases the members might, or that they even hire the farmer, but here they pay for a share that is defined by bushels or fractions thereof. They are guaranteed 20 weeks of their size share, unless disaster hits. The items in the baskets are up to us, until we get bumper crops and then they can have more input into how much of what (though never more than their total share, in other words if they get 1/2 bushel and want all one thing if we have it we will give a 1/2 bushel of it--within reason. After all, a bushel of some things is worth a LOT more than a bushel of others.) We have "free" items in boxes that they can have all they want of--first come first served. They respect one another nicely on this one. And we have items for sale--individual quantities and bulk for the canners. In good years we extend (for free) the pickups (no guaratnees on items or quantities and they have to notify us about pickups) 2-4 weeks and we try, if notified in advance, to make up for missed pickups if there is a good reason (forgetting is not a good reason--a family illness is). We have never had too little food for baskets though they have been subjected to a lot of mustard greens some years and none the next. When we have too much it is not considered free unless we just can't get rid of it. To have members deserve an equal share they must share the risk equally with the farmer. There may be examples of this, but so far I know the CSAs here have farmers make the largest investment and members get a reasonable and fair return for their dollars. CSa members do get bulk items for wholesale or less prices. Other stuff goes to retail stores or the farmers market. In a bad year (or a good one) CSA members get food first. Then other markets do. Wholesale sales require cases of high quality so you usually plant those crops in addition to what you plant for CSA--you don't rely on bumper crops for wholesale or you won't have consistent quantity and quality. If we have a bad tomato year then each CSA member gets their share--even if it is one tomato. NEVER do we market prior to taking care of CSA--depsite prices. If there is not enough of an item to go around we just tell the earlybirds that quantities are limited so the first ones here get the whatever it. Great way to get them to come early rather than waiting late--a problem this time of year. At 08:50 AM 8/24/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >Here's the delimma: > >If you are a CSA (that is, members put up the money to run the farm, >what grows is distributed evenly among the members - you share the risk >of bad harvests and the bounty of good harvests) how do you have any >tomatoes to sell to anyone? Don't they already belong to the members? > >If you have a "split" operation, i.e. some CSA, some market garden, how >do you allocate resources during a bad year? E.g. if disease wipes out >halpo of your tomatoes who doesn't get tomatoes? If market prices for >tomatoes are really high do more tomatoes go to market at teh expense of >members? > >In a good year do you split the market sales profits with members? In >bad years do you ask them to make up for shortfalls? > >Hopw do you "share the risk/share the bounty" with a split operation? > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust >www.osalt.org > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Aug 26 21:37:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29326 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18364; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:25:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18260 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:24:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA24327; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:24:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-66.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.66) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024315; Thu Aug 26 20:24:06 1999 Message-ID: <00d101bef02a$c53f3860$42f96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Cecilia Bowman" Cc: Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:23:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 548 Well put, I hadn't really thought of it that way. No way do our members fully support the farm. If we added up everything plus a wage for ourselves which is advocated in some books I've read, our share would be way more expensive. Our CSA is part of a diversity of crops, which we plan to diversify even more or quite frankly I don't think we could afford the CSA or at least not a small intimate CSA. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Bowman To: osalt@teleport.com Cc: Allan Balliett ; csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel >I have a "split operation, BUT... > >The CSA members here do not "share" the entire expenses of operating this >farm. I know in some cases the members might, or that they even hire the >farmer, but here they pay for a share that is defined by bushels or >fractions thereof. They are guaranteed 20 weeks of their size share, unless >disaster hits. The items in the baskets are up to us, until we get bumper >crops and then they can have more input into how much of what (though never >more than their total share, in other words if they get 1/2 bushel and want >all one thing if we have it we will give a 1/2 bushel of it--within reason. >After all, a bushel of some things is worth a LOT more than a bushel of others.) > >We have "free" items in boxes that they can have all they want of--first >come first served. They respect one another nicely on this one. And we >have items for sale--individual quantities and bulk for the canners. In >good years we extend (for free) the pickups (no guaratnees on items or >quantities and they have to notify us about pickups) 2-4 weeks and we try, >if notified in advance, to make up for missed pickups if there is a good >reason (forgetting is not a good reason--a family illness is). > > >We have never had too little food for baskets though they have been >subjected to a lot of mustard greens some years and none the next. When we >have too much it is not considered free unless we just can't get rid of it. >To have members deserve an equal share they must share the risk equally with >the farmer. There may be examples of this, but so far I know the CSAs here >have farmers make the largest investment and members get a reasonable and >fair return for their dollars. CSa members do get bulk items for wholesale >or less prices. Other stuff goes to retail stores or the farmers market. > > >In a bad year (or a good one) CSA members get food first. Then other >markets do. Wholesale sales require cases of high quality so you usually >plant those crops in addition to what you plant for CSA--you don't rely on >bumper crops for wholesale or you won't have consistent quantity and quality. > >If we have a bad tomato year then each CSA member gets their share--even if >it is one tomato. NEVER do we market prior to taking care of CSA--depsite >prices. If there is not enough of an item to go around we just tell the >earlybirds that quantities are limited so the first ones here get the >whatever it. Great way to get them to come early rather than waiting >late--a problem this time of year. > >At 08:50 AM 8/24/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >>Here's the delimma: >> >>If you are a CSA (that is, members put up the money to run the farm, >>what grows is distributed evenly among the members - you share the risk >>of bad harvests and the bounty of good harvests) how do you have any >>tomatoes to sell to anyone? Don't they already belong to the members? >> >>If you have a "split" operation, i.e. some CSA, some market garden, how >>do you allocate resources during a bad year? E.g. if disease wipes out >>halpo of your tomatoes who doesn't get tomatoes? If market prices for >>tomatoes are really high do more tomatoes go to market at teh expense of >>members? >> >>In a good year do you split the market sales profits with members? In >>bad years do you ask them to make up for shortfalls? >> >>Hopw do you "share the risk/share the bounty" with a split operation? >> >>Will Newman II >>CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >>Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust >>www.osalt.org >> >> >> >Cissy Bowman, >President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >8364 S SR 39 >Clayton, IN 46118 >317-539-4317 >cvof@iquest.net > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 27 00:09:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01454 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 00:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA00892; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:58:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA00750 for ; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:56:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EJZGYUQM; Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:54:31 EDT To: guldann@ix.netcom.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:59:27 -0700 Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Message-ID: <19990826.205927.-259717.0.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,27-28,40-41,63-64,71-72,77-83,85-233 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 549 I too think you put it well Dan. I have worked with two very different farms that run a "CSA." One has a 300+ member CSA in several cities and towns around the Bay Area (California) and also markets its products at 3 farmers markets, through retail accounts to co-ops, stores, and restaurants, and to wholesale accounts. Their CSA is set up where members can join or leave at any time, can pay monthly, quarterly or annually (with discounts for longer commitments) and can opt out of receiving a share while on vacation, etc. Members pay $70 a month and receive food that would be valued at that price by the farm at the farmers market. They typically receive 8 items a week that include both fruits and vegetables (and nuts) every week of the year (with 2 weeks off at the end of the year). It is typically very diverse and broad ranging through the seasons. for instance, a spring box would include spinach, salad mix, broccoli, asparagus, green garlic, artichokes, carrots and strawberries. A summer box would consist of basil, sweet corn, potatoes, summer squash, cucumbers, onions, melon, tomatoes and peaches. A winter box: cauliflower, leeks, salad mix, carrots, butternut, cabbage, spinach, and satsuma mandarins. People don't specifically share in the bounty of the season beyond receiving amazing seasonal offerings. Many members do not want to receive more food--this is urban california and many people eat out often, have small households, etc. They like supporting a farm on the suburban/rural fringe, receiving organic food picked in the last 36 hours, and (often) having it delivered to a drop off close to home or at work. They are, however, a very important part of the farms sales and offer a constant flow of money throughout the year. The other farm, which I am currently working on, is a 3 acre urban farm in Portland, Oregon. Our 50+ members join for a year at a time, pay either up front or in 3 installments, and receive a weekly share May through November and every other week through the winter (when the weather cooperates). The members are the only official outlet for food from the farm. They share in the bounty or shortfalls of crops at the farm. The "official" contract that is signed promises 36 deliveries with a total of 300 pounds of food from the farm or an equivalent amount of organic food purchased from wholesalers in the case of total crop losses. We anticipate reaching the 300 pound point by week 28, the end of our weekly shares at the end of November. The farm has never had a problem meeting that contractual minimum. However, we do not always send out the full bounty of the farm. Today, for instance, we had 30 pounds of extra cucumbers, after giving all shares (25 delivered today) more than 2 pounds. The same with summer squash--we had an extra 60 pounds. Sometimes we will send boxes of extra to delivery sites (we have 3, two on Mondays and one on Thursdays), but often much of that food is not taken. People do not like being overwhelmed with food. They are not canning/preserving and have limited refridgerator space. If members (or friends of the farmers) come to help at the farm, we typically offer as much of anything they want. We also give some of our harvest to other outlets from time to time. Today we delivered 30 bunches each of carrots and beets, the extra cukes and squash and 60 pounds of potatoes, to a co-op group that held its groundbreaking in town. They have hopes of having a farmers market and our food was to be given away as a "taste of things to come." I don't feel we are shortchanging members be doing this. We also have some crops where we have very slim harvests--artichokes an strawberries, both in for their first season. These are farmers treats and we have not tried to send out 1/4 pints to all our members or offered one artichoke to each of them. We also do not take time (or have time) to pick the apples, prune plums, or blackberries that grace our farm for the members. So they are farmer treats, and we do dry and can and preserve (and give away) these foods. My coworker worked on a CSA farm back east where all the members met to review the farm budget and pledge money toward it. There was no set CSA price. If the members did not pledge enough, the farmers would explain what in their budget would have to be cut: less crops, no lime for the soil, etc with the money pledged. The members would either repledge or live with that decision. The ultimate in member "ownership." But not a model I see working for most farm situations at this time. So there are some drastically different ways that CSA's are operating. I think they are all valid and it is most important to be up front with members, ask them what they want, and determine your own financial needs and make sure they are being met. Otherwise it's not sustainable in any way, shape or form. shalom michael isensee portland oregon On Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:23:27 -0400 "Dan Hook" writes: >Well put, I hadn't really thought of it that way. No way do our >members >fully support the farm. If we added up everything plus a wage for >ourselves >which is advocated in some books I've read, our share would be way >more >expensive. Our CSA is part of a diversity of crops, which we plan >to >diversify even more or quite frankly I don't think we could afford the >CSA >or at least not a small intimate CSA. Beth >-----Original Message----- >From: Cecilia Bowman >To: osalt@teleport.com >Cc: Allan Balliett ; csa-l@prairienet.org > >Date: Thursday, August 26, 1999 6:33 PM >Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel > > >>I have a "split operation, BUT... >> >>The CSA members here do not "share" the entire expenses of operating >this >>farm. I know in some cases the members might, or that they even hire >the >>farmer, but here they pay for a share that is defined by bushels or >>fractions thereof. They are guaranteed 20 weeks of their size >share, >unless >>disaster hits. The items in the baskets are up to us, until we get >bumper >>crops and then they can have more input into how much of what >(though >never >>more than their total share, in other words if they get 1/2 bushel >and want >>all one thing if we have it we will give a 1/2 bushel of it--within >reason. >>After all, a bushel of some things is worth a LOT more than a bushel >of >others.) >> >>We have "free" items in boxes that they can have all they want >of--first >>come first served. They respect one another nicely on this one. And >we >>have items for sale--individual quantities and bulk for the canners. >In >>good years we extend (for free) the pickups (no guaratnees on items >or >>quantities and they have to notify us about pickups) 2-4 weeks and we >try, >>if notified in advance, to make up for missed pickups if there is a >good >>reason (forgetting is not a good reason--a family illness is). >> >> >>We have never had too little food for baskets though they have been >>subjected to a lot of mustard greens some years and none the next. >When we >>have too much it is not considered free unless we just can't get rid >of it. >>To have members deserve an equal share they must share the risk >equally >with >>the farmer. There may be examples of this, but so far I know the >CSAs here >>have farmers make the largest investment and members get a reasonable >and >>fair return for their dollars. CSa members do get bulk items for >wholesale >>or less prices. Other stuff goes to retail stores or the farmers >market. >> >> >>In a bad year (or a good one) CSA members get food first. Then >other >>markets do. Wholesale sales require cases of high quality so you >usually >>plant those crops in addition to what you plant for CSA--you don't >rely on >>bumper crops for wholesale or you won't have consistent quantity and >quality. >> >>If we have a bad tomato year then each CSA member gets their >share--even if >>it is one tomato. NEVER do we market prior to taking care of >CSA--depsite >>prices. If there is not enough of an item to go around we just tell >the >>earlybirds that quantities are limited so the first ones here get >the >>whatever it. Great way to get them to come early rather than >waiting >>late--a problem this time of year. >> >>At 08:50 AM 8/24/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >>>Here's the delimma: >>> >>>If you are a CSA (that is, members put up the money to run the >farm, >>>what grows is distributed evenly among the members - you share the >risk >>>of bad harvests and the bounty of good harvests) how do you have >any >>>tomatoes to sell to anyone? Don't they already belong to the >members? >>> >>>If you have a "split" operation, i.e. some CSA, some market garden, >how >>>do you allocate resources during a bad year? E.g. if disease wipes >out >>>halpo of your tomatoes who doesn't get tomatoes? If market prices >for >>>tomatoes are really high do more tomatoes go to market at teh >expense of >>>members? >>> >>>In a good year do you split the market sales profits with members? >In >>>bad years do you ask them to make up for shortfalls? >>> >>>Hopw do you "share the risk/share the bounty" with a split >operation? >>> >>>Will Newman II >>>CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >>>Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust >>>www.osalt.org >>> >>> >>> >>Cissy Bowman, >>President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >>Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >>Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >>8364 S SR 39 >>Clayton, IN 46118 >>317-539-4317 >>cvof@iquest.net >> > Michael Isensee 900 NW Mawrcrest Dr #203 Gresham OR 97030 503-674-9107 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 27 02:26:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02623 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA10343; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:15:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA10213 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 01:13:51 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dHPPa28691 (4567) for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 02:13:11 EDT Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows sub 11 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 This certainly has been an interesting thread. The comments on diversity of outlets interests me the most. But I can't help but feel that we are stuck in a box when it comes to diversifying our small farm financial support. There are no clear definitions for sustainable agriculture or community. It's an abstract concept that we are guided to pursue. We will neither recognize nor know it, until we achieve it. But I've noticed that the closer I come toward sustainability the more symbiotic the relationship become between the parts and the whole. All of the markets noted so far in diversifying financial support for small farms are produce outlets and many are wholesale outlets. I must be paying too much property tax because I can't afford to sell anything for less than retail. We had to go into the processing "added value" market to make our farm financially independent. We started growing medicinal herbs because I complained to my partner that we couldn't give away the culinary herbs and that the herb garden was becoming wasted space. She took an herbalist correspondence course and soon started cranking out herbal skin care products (soaps and skin creams). The profit margin of the skin care products is five times that of produce (we tried a dry bean soup mix one year and the members overwhelmingly disapproved). So now we are scaling back our CSA membership in order to devote more time to the other farming income. We continue to hold workshops, farm tours and internships to encourage new growers to venture into starting CSAs. But we don't have to meet all of the growing demand for healthy food. We do have to stay in business. Since diversity works so well in my fields why not apply those same principles to my direct farm sales? Many of the people who buy our herbal products can't appreciate the value of our fresh organic produce. Yet they support our farm even more then the tried and true CSA subscribers. I believe as more small farmers begin to diversify the products they sell that more people will begin to value small farmers. In the place where I grew up the accepted prejudice of farmers was, "Those stupid people who can't get jobs doing anything else." Prejudices are always misinforming and so ingrained that we need as many avenues as possible to chip away at the walls they create. I guess the purpose of this response is to get growers to start thinking outside of the grocery box. Make our farms viable businesses and society will begin to value and seek out our presence. Maybe then the county will allow me an agricultural easement for my property. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 27 08:26:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05489 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA26820; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:12:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA26706 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:11:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id HAA02563 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:11:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-50.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.50) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002491; Fri Aug 27 07:11:06 1999 Message-ID: <014d01bef085$2a90c580$42f96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Value added Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:10:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 551 --->Great response Micheal and Art. Value added my husband and I were just talking about it last night. I think jams and relishes would be intriguing but I suspect you have to have a special licence etc. Which as the years go by can't say I won't look into it. But what we were discussing last night was firewood. My husband has been selling firewood for approx. 20 years. Now that he's close to the big 50 he was feeling 100 cords is all he can handle not the 200 he is contracted to this year. (MDC. state property, forest thinning). We saw at a farm stand a grid arrangement in different sizes for wood that costs $45, $15 , and $8. Sold that way its about $270 a cord, $350 a cord and 400* a cord. By husband sells it delivered for $125-150 depending on how far away the customer is. The advantage of the above is its u-pick up. The disadvantage is we are off the beaten track and it will take awhile for business to pick-up(pun!). Any of our CSA members who want are entiled as part of their membership a $15 unit. We hope they tell their friends to come on up. Oh and those units while good for us in a value added sort of way, they are also good for the customer. The customer who usually buys those little bundles in the grocery store we figured depending on size you save 4-16 dollars. Our other "value added" products is pumkins. Not really anything added its just that pumkins sell for so much more than real food. I am in Massachusetts and last year upscale farm stands where getting $0.39 a pound. I sold a few for about .30. For an normal biggish pumkin its $8-10. Each member family get 3 pumkins with their membership, actually they may get a couple extra in that I planted some "extra" pumkins, small ones for pies, white ones, and little ones none of these promised on flyer they will be bonus. We planted way.........extra and hope to sell retail. We are going to advertise in the same paper that got us our 37 members. 1/2 page to full page we haven't decided yet. But as I said we are off the beaten path if we don't advertse I might be forced to make 1000 pumkins pies.......at $8 a piece well....... Good Good luck to everyone, Beth becoming wasted space. She took an herbalist correspondence course and soon >started cranking out herbal skin care products (soaps and skin creams). The >profit margin of the skin care products is five times that of produce (we >tried a dry bean soup mix one year and the members overwhelmingly >disapproved). So now we are scaling back our CSA membership in order to >devote more time to the other farming income. > We continue to hold workshops, farm tours and internships to encourage >new growers to venture into starting CSAs. But we don't have to meet all of >the growing demand for healthy food. We do have to stay in business. Since >diversity works so well in my fields why not apply those same principles to >my direct farm sales? Many of the people who buy our herbal products can't >appreciate the value of our fresh organic produce. Yet they support our farm >even more then the tried and true CSA subscribers. > I believe as more small farmers begin to diversify the products they >sell that more people will begin to value small farmers. In the place where >I grew up the accepted prejudice of farmers was, "Those stupid people who >can't get jobs doing anything else." Prejudices are always misinforming and >so ingrained that we need as many avenues as possible to chip away at the >walls they create. > I guess the purpose of this response is to get growers to start >thinking outside of the grocery box. Make our farms viable businesses and >society will begin to value and seek out our presence. Maybe then the county >will allow me an agricultural easement for my property. > >Art Biggert >Ocean Sky Farm > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 27 09:33:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06698 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01420; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:14:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01258 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:13:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mystic.excite.com ([199.172.152.98]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990827131229.VKMI296.kuku@mystic.excite.com> for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:12:29 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Split operations and risk taking Message-Id: <935759549.4967.930@excite.com> Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 06:12:29 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.217 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 552 We run a split operation which the CSA makes up about 1/10th of farm revenues this year. This means that the CSA is not even coming close to payiny our bills so we do farmer's markets, sell to a resturant and a couple of health food stores. The CSA this year has been there for community - we have a great group this year that likes to come out to the farm and help us weed and pick but they are a very small group of 3 active members and 2 "silent" members. So how do we share the bounty? we make up about 12 to 20lbs of food a week for the members plus anyone who works can take home additional food (rarely happens this time of year but lots of takers in the spring when the boxes are very light). Right now boxes weigh in at 20lbs due to tomatoes and melons but on average they are about 9lbs with 9 to 11 items each week. We try not to overwhelm the members with too much food and I don't think we have (I'll know more when the surveys sent out this week come back) but this was a problem last year. We have on farm pick-up each week but do deliver to a few members who have special circumstances (one is a doctor that is trading a surgery for food and my Husband neglected to explain anything about the CSA when he set this up, such as the requirement of coming to the farm for pick-up each week, so the guy just expects a box of food each week until who knows when) and we have one member who likes to pay us up front and than graze at the farmer's market until she runs out of credit, than she cuts us another check to continue (she hates the constraints of the CSA, having to pick-up at a certain time/place, coming to potlucks etc). As far as risk goes, we tell members up front that they are sharing our risk and if there is a massive failure, not due to our fault, they do not get a refund. I feel the risk sharing is a big part of the CSA philosophy. Folks need to know that food is not necessarily a given, in reality. They need to know there are things such as crop failures and not everything grows year round-that asparagus is not a mid summer food, for example. This risk taking is, in a way, part of consumer education on our part. I have been wondering how a farm could possibly refund its' members if there was a big crop failure-if the crops failed where is the money coming from to refund? As I see it the money up front is to be used for the upcoming season, not put into an escrow fund "just in case". If it goes to the escrow fund what is the point in obtaing the funds up front? The same thing with buying produce to supplement a box, which several people mention they do. From what I learned about this one never promises anything-a season lasts "about"...; The box "may" contain... etc.. So if the strawberries don't come in the members don't get them, period. Give them more of what ever is in big supply but don't go out and spend money supplementing, makes no financial sense to me. Especially if you are looking at massive crop failures. Farming is probably the riskiest occupation one can have (I think it is riskier than gambling) and I for one feel that the consumer should shoulder some of the risk along with the farmer in the CSA model. Especially since there are no gov't programs for us organic/small farm/CSA types-instead of tax money going for farms the member gets to directly help a farm. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Aug 27 11:59:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09835 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16027; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:44:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f97.hotmail.com [209.185.131.160]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA15892 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:43:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 61277 invoked by uid 0); 27 Aug 1999 15:42:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19990827154257.61276.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:42:56 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: brike1@juno.com, guldann@ix.netcom.com Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Organic Tomatoes by the Bushel Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:42:56 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 553 I have enjoyed hearing the different ideas shared on this topic. My CSA is in its first season, and I have 8 families "subscribed" to receive vegetables, herbs and flowers. I offer the flowers on a PYO basis only. These 8 subscribers in no way support the entire operation. Each family made a 50 percent down payment before the season began, and have made two equal payments to pay off the balance. They all understood that there would be some risk involved in this type of commitment, and were willing to share in that risk for a weekly supply of fresh produce. I might add that I have been able to meet this obligation with success thus far, with only a few more weeks to go until our season is over. The vegetables are divided evenly among the families, unless there is an over abundance of something. I agree with others who stated that folks don't need huge quantities of say tomatoes or squash. Most of my customers are looking for fresh vegetables to eat, not preserve. However, I do inform them when we have quantities available for preserving. There again, this is on a PYO basis. I sometimes use the excess vegetables to give to prospective customers. I see this as a means of free advertising. Also, we have a vegetable sharing mission project at our church each Sunday where people can donate their extras. In turn, those that don't have a fresh source of vegetables can take what they want and leave a cash donation, which helps fund some of these projects. There are probably as many different definitions for CSA as there are farmers offering CSA's. I feel that what works best for the individual is what makes this type of operation a success. I believe that we all are working towards a common goal. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Aug 28 00:20:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA18062 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 00:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA18915; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:05:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18821 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 23:04:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-131.premier1.net [207.149.54.131]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id VAA27894 for ; Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199908280401.VAA27894@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:06:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: re-chickens X-Confirm-Reading-To: mjb@mail.premier1.net X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 554 Teresa: Coccidiosis is generally in very young chickens, between 2-6weeks in age. It doesn't really matter what the disease is since most diseases are treated similiarly. If not worried about organic certification I would treat with an anti-biotic if the sulfur does not work. Don't use the eggs for a while. We are certified organic so can't use anything with our birds, but I am of the firm belief that anti-biotics can be a good thing ( as with humans if nothing else works) and if it means the choice between life and death, lifeis the better choice. They aren't a good thing to use on a regular basis for all the known reasons. Put your water dish on a frame that has a screen over it so that your water container is not sitting directly in spilled water that the chickens will contaminate. Another good thing to do is to place the frame on sand. Bacteria can not grow in sand. Diseases are usually transmitted in water that has been contaminated with bacteria laden feces. I would not feed on the ground until all signs of the disease are gone. Also isolate any birds that are showing symptoms. As for our roosting system: we have 300-400 layers at any given time and they have a roosting pit. I never do anything to that manure unless it is to scoop out some to go into the compost. This creates natural heat which is wonderful especially for the winter. Not putting any litter on it discourages the chickens from scratchin in it. It also becomes very hard and is not an attractive alternative especially when there are so many other options. I use what is called the deep litter method. That is I scatter litter (for me that's hay)_ over the rest of the coop every once in a while. Depennds on the season as to how frequent. I use my nose as a guide. A well maintained chicken coop should have no flies and no odor. Summer has come and gone (almost) and i am just beginning to think I should add a layer. The last layer was appplied in March. The chickens scratch and peck at seeds in the hay and naturally aereate. The composting creates a natural anti-biotic that helps keep the chickens healthy, and also many of the bacterias that are bad for the chickens can not grow in that environment. If you do not have a pit for the manure to fall into, I would clean it out once or twice a week and scatter hay over the reat of the coopfloor. Or you could stir it around and incorporate it into the litter. If you're not using a deep litter method I would strongly reccomend it. It's not only the best thing for the chickens but it is a time saver for me. Maybe once a year I will clean, but generally it's just a spot clean if an area gets wet for some reason. I'm sorry this is going to the whole group. I lost your reply with your address. I am not very computer literate. Good luck Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA bacterias From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Aug 28 12:29:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27506 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27544; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:14:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA27412 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:13:22 -0500 (CDT) From: YAHMEEMA@aol.com Received: from YAHMEEMA@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dMVLa00254 (4313) for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <47edb62d.24f96467@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:12:23 EDT Subject: PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAILING LIST To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 555 I have been trying to be removed from this mailing list for months. I don't know how I got on it, but please, please remove me from it, okay? Thank You! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Aug 28 21:41:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04964 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01013; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:28:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA00936 for ; Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:27:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199908290127.UAA00936@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 42356465; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 01:26:48 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "CSA List" Subject: survey your farm members Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 21:21:57 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 556 Here in Northern Michigan the leaves are starting to show some fall color and we are starting to think about fall projects (even as our tomato production is at its peak). One fall project is a survey of our members to see how things went from their point of view and what changes might be in order for next year. Many farms do a survey of the membership, whether every year or two or every month or two. It is a good way to learn how things are going. Most of us are not all that good at putting surveys together. That is why we had a two part series in "The Community Farm" last year on the subject. The articles are on the internet; view by clicking on the URL below our "signature" line, scroll to near the bottom of the page that opens and click on "Surveying Community." If you need more help, the author is available via email, linked at the end of the article. There is, of course, no obligation for inquires about his services (which would be billed at his "non-profit organization" rate). If you have not heard of our newsletter yet and would like a sample copy, send us your regular mailing address and we will get the most recent issue in the mail to you. Happy harvests! Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Aug 29 16:48:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18088 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA02641; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 15:34:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02506 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 15:32:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from brike1@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id EJ8EQ6ZZ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:30:03 EDT To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 13:36:15 -0700 Subject: genetic engineered crops Message-ID: <19990829.133616.-259985.0.brike1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,18-19,24-25,28-35 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: michael j isensee Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 557 In case anyone out there is interested.... Today's (Sunday) Oregonian reprinted an article by Melody Petersen of the New York Times News Service under the headline "Overseas markets turn up noses at high-tech U.S. crops." The article states, in part, "U.S. farmers paid premium prices this spring to sow many of their fields with genetically engineered corn and soybeans, but as the fall harvest nears, more of the international buyers they depend on are saying they do not want those crops." Two of the largest breweries in Japan are refusing to buy GE corn, and Japan is requesting mandatory labeling of all GE products. The largest producer of corn tortillas in Mexico is also refusing to buy GE products (which begs the question of why a Mexican producer of corn tortillas would want to purchase U.S. corn). Grain elevator operators are asking farmers to keep GE crops separate, and our government is working hard to coerce other countries into accepting our GE products. 60 million acres of GE crops were planted in the US this year, nearly half of all the soybeans and a third of all the corn. I see this as beneficial news to the typical CSA as people's awareness of food issues around genetically engineered crops grows. It also might increase the demand for grains (and cornmeal?) within a CSA as people look for products they can be assured of are not genetically engineered. Hope all is well on your farms. We are having a strange humid summer day with rain and cool temperatures (very unusual for August here in Portland). shalom, michael Michael Isensee 900 NW Mawrcrest Dr #203 Gresham OR 97030 503-674-9107 ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Aug 29 23:13:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23658 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA29721; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:59:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29638 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:59:02 -0500 (CDT) From: MNdeadhead@aol.com Received: from MNdeadhead@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dYPVa01827 (4323); Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:58:25 EDT Subject: Re: PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM THE MAILING LIST To: YAHMEEMA@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 21 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 558 SAME HERE! PLEASE REMOVE US!!!! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Aug 30 01:12:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA24744 for ; Mon, 30 Aug 1999 01:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA08862; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:58:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08778 for ; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:57:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (dialup-209.245.33.104.SanDiego1.Level3.net [209.245.33.104]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18258; Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990829215601.00823db0@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:56:01 -0700 To: From: Fred Chambers Subject: SoCalif Farm Manager Position Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 559 Hi CSA friends, The following note refers to a job that is a lot like a CSA farmer on a 20-acre facility of the campus of California State Polytechnic University Pomona. The Center for Regenerative Studies is a high-tech ecovillage, home to a 20 member semi-intentional community, and they could use a farm manager who can provide a year-round harvest for the kitchen. The students living on-site are also the primary labor force. For anyone wanting to run a CSA without some of the hassles, this might be a great opportunity. Includes aquaculture, poultry, sheep, bees, greenhouse/coolhouse, solar driers, solar freezer, and much more. Passing the word, Fred --------------- For Info Write To: armsurf@earthlink.net Cal Poly's Center for Regenerative Studies http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~crs/ is seeking qualified candidates for the position of Land Technician. Candidates should have practical hands-on skills in operating a food system based on regenerative practices. CV's may be send to the Office of the Director (909) 869-5188. Paul Sommers Outreach Coordinator === Paul Sommers armsurf@earthlink.net 760-944-8551 __________________________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 31 14:18:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27482 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA23824; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:04:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23422 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:01:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.133]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA418 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:01:38 -0400 Message-ID: <000f01bef3dd$10c1a240$85c3a4cf@server.accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:16:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 560 thank you From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 31 16:14:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01767 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA09284; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:00:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from aw162.netaddress.usa.net (aw162.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09117 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 14:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 24442 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Aug 1999 19:59:34 -0000 Message-ID: <19990831195934.24441.qmail@aw162.netaddress.usa.net> Received: from 204.68.24.62 by aw162 via web-mailer(M3.2.0.53) on Tue Aug 31 19:59:34 GMT 1999 Date: 31 Aug 99 12:59:34 PDT From: SARNA SALZMAN To: Subject: please remove me from the list X-Mailer: USANET web-mailer (M3.2.0.53) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id OAA09118 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 561 thank you ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Aug 31 16:30:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02057 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 16:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12133; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:16:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.oceangroup.com (prawn.oceangroup.com [208.242.218.50]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12014 for ; Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:16:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 23727 invoked from network); 31 Aug 1999 20:18:23 -0000 Received: from shark.oceangroup.com (HELO shark) (208.242.218.10) by mail.oceangroup.com with SMTP; 31 Aug 1999 20:18:23 -0000 Message-Id: <4.1.19990831131225.00a5fc10@mail.cruzio.com> X-Sender: erinb@mail.cruzio.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 13:14:45 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Erin Barnett Subject: new CSA website Cc: harlan@oceangroup.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 562 Hello all. I work with a small but growing internet company whose founders are very interested in using their skills to help spread the word about sustainable agriculture, particularly CSA. We have an idea for a website that would offer consumers a way to search for local sources of organic produce that is direct marketed through CSAs, farmers markets, or u-pick farms. We have already talked to a number of farmers on the central coast of California, and they are quite enthusiastic about the idea, but before we go further into developing the site we'd like to hear from other quarters about whether this seems like a useful thing in helping to get members. We are looking for outside sources of funding so that there would be no fees associated with being listed on the site or with using it. We plan to jumpstart the content end of the site by entering basic data for all the CSAs etc. we know about (gathered and consolidated from existing resources) and then give all the listed farms easy instructions on how to update their data themselves. The site will also give consumers looking for local organic food a way to post messages expressing their interest, which we think could be especially useful in areas of the country where organic produce is hard to come by, but where farmers might be convinced to diversify their operations or try their hand at organic production if they knew there was a market. Thoughts? Erin Barnett Ocean Group, Santa Cruz, CA (831) 466-0700 erinb@oceangroup.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 1 23:12:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16332 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 23:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA21173; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:06:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20948 for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:04:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990902030403.RVAC2517.gigi@flash.excite.com> for ; Wed, 1 Sep 1999 20:04:03 -0700 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Staking Tomatoes Message-Id: <936241441.11094.466@excite.com> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:04:01 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.48.69 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 563 I was wondering, while picking boxes and boxes of tomatoes, if thee was a better way to support my tomatoes, and be easier to pick them. We now have a trellis support sysytem, that is barbless wire run between t-posts and twine that comes down off that wire to loop arond the tomato plants. This has worked o.k. the plants we were able to keep ahead of. But if anyone has a way that works for them, I'd love to hear about it. Right now, we have 3, 120'rows of tomatoes. Teresa Kohut Spirit Gardens CSA Jacksonville, OR ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 2 14:48:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00123 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 14:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01502; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:39:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f11.hotmail.com [209.185.131.74]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA01105 for ; Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:37:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 79000 invoked by uid 0); 2 Sep 1999 18:17:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19990902181756.78999.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Sep 1999 11:17:55 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: hairy vetch seed Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:17:55 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 564 I am looking for a nearby source for hairy vetch seeds to plant as a cover crop. I am located near Raleigh, NC. Thanks in advance for your help. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 3 21:18:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14935 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27918; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:16:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from post1.fast.net (post1.fast.net [198.69.204.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA27414 for ; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 20:10:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gregbowm (maxtnt09-abe-66.fast.net [209.92.14.66]) by post1.fast.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA19573; Fri, 3 Sep 1999 21:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37CF2C57.1278@fast.net> Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 22:03:03 -0400 From: Greg Bowman Reply-To: gbowman@fast.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org CC: theshepherdsfarm@hotmail.com Subject: Re: hairy vetch seed References: <19990902181756.78999.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 Kenneth, Try checking the Sustianable Farming Connections cover crop page. GREAT list of seed sources at http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/links/ccfseeds.htm SARE's Managing Cover Crops Profitably, Second Edition (information at http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/pubs/resources/index.html#Profitably and http://www.sare.org/san/mccp2/) lists some eastern sources. Ask for Nebraska origin seed [cv. Madison] if hardiness if important. The West Coast seed tends to be less hardy. Sometimes you have no choice. --Budd Seed, 191 Budd Bld., Winston Salem NC 27103, 910.760.9060 --Ernset Conservation Seeds, RD 5 Box 806, Meadville PA 16335, 814.336.2404 --Tennessee Farmers Coop, P.O. Box 3003, LaVergne TN 37086 615.793.8506 --Southern States Cooperative, 2600 Durham St., Richmond VA 23220 800.868.6273 Check for nearest store, and if they handle HV this year. The more farmer requests that seed retailers/suppliers have, the more seed they will carry. If they don't have it this year, ask them to get it for next year--then follow-up and ask them again. Best wishes. Don't forget a pea/vetch strain of inoculant. Greg Kenneth Barnes wrote: > I am looking for a nearby source for hairy vetch seeds to plant as a cover > crop. I am located near Raleigh, NC. Thanks in advance for your help. -- Greg Bowman 504 Main St. , P.O. Box 490 Bally PA 19503 610.845.2436 Communicating for whole farms...for whole communities...for the whole world. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Sep 4 11:55:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09603 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14188; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:53:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12948 for ; Sat, 4 Sep 1999 10:34:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.182] [198.69.131.182] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD69D6D008E; Sat, 04 Sep 1999 11:40:25 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Sat, 4 Sep 1999 11:34:13 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: seed garlic Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 We're expanding our garlic crop next year. Do people have good sources for great garlic? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 6 00:59:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05614 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 00:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA27083; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:53:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from islander.whidbey.net (root@islander.whidbey.net [204.57.140.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26782 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 23:47:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (asn196.whidbey.net [204.57.140.85]) by islander.whidbey.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA05292 for ; Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000001bef822$4844d680$558c39cc@default> Reply-To: "Michael & Jeannie Glass" From: "Michael & Jeannie Glass" To: "CSA List" Subject: COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1999 21:41:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF7E7.713D4760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF7E7.713D4760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am working on a MA degree in Organizational Leadership/Development and = for my thesis, I am looking into how a CSA farm might serve as a model = building a sustainable community/family culture. I would greatly = appreciate any stories on how your farm(s) have served as such a model. = I am also looking for a farm or two to use as a case study; any = volunteers? Thank you, Michael Glass ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF7E7.713D4760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I am working on a MA degree in = Organizational=20 Leadership/Development and for my thesis, I am looking into how a CSA = farm might=20 serve as a model building a sustainable community/family culture.  = I would=20 greatly appreciate any stories on how your farm(s) have served as such a = model.  I am also looking for a farm or two to use as a case study; = any=20 volunteers?
     
    Thank you,
    Michael = Glass
    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF7E7.713D4760-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 6 15:12:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29988 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14977; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:05:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14737 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:02:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (MINNB210-36.splitrock.net [209.156.245.151]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA722274 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:02:00 -0400 Message-ID: <000901bef89b$153a1560$97f59cd1@pavilion> From: "Nicholas A Westcott" To: Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1999 14:07:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF871.1EAB7AA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 568 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF871.1EAB7AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a college student working on an analysis of CSAs and would like to = ask several questions of you. I would welcome any demographic = information you are willing to supply about your members. Are they = mostly single, couples, or families (how many children)? What are there = income and educational levels? Any other information that would be = useful, is very much appreciated. =20 What is your return membership percentage? What are the reasons for = their leaving? Does your CSA do membership surveys, how regularly? If agreeable, I will be asking other questions in the future. I realize that your time is precious, and again want to thank you for = your input. Nick Westcott=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF871.1EAB7AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I am a college student working on an = analysis of=20 CSAs and would like to ask several questions of you.  I would = welcome any=20 demographic information you are willing to supply about your = members.  Are=20 they mostly single, couples, or families (how many children)?  What = are=20 there income and educational levels? Any other information that would be = useful,=20 is very much appreciated. 
    What is your return membership percentage?  = What are the=20 reasons for their leaving?
    Does your CSA do membership surveys, how=20 regularly?
     
    If agreeable, = I will be=20 asking other questions in the future.
    I realize that your time is precious, and again want = to thank=20 you for your input.
     
    Nick Westcott 
    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BEF871.1EAB7AA0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 6 16:11:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA00727 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 16:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19082; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:08:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18992 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 15:07:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27941 invoked from network); 6 Sep 1999 20:07:40 -0000 Received: from i48-40-04.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.62.132) (216.26.62.132) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 6 Sep 1999 20:07:40 -0000 Message-ID: <37D41B0C.76E4@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 12:50:37 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Teresa%2B Kohut" CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Staking Tomatoes References: <936241441.11094.466@excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 Teresa, We set a t-post every 8 feet and weave paired lines of bailing twine around the plants between the posts - one line from the post around the left of the first plant, right of the second, left of the third, etc., the other just the opposite. As the plants get taller we add 2 more lines of twine, and so on. One person can add a set of lines easily, two can do it in almost no time. With lusher bushes you might want to set the posts closer together. Using biodegradable bailing twine means that at the end of the season you can cut the twine off the posts, pull up the plants, and compost the whole thing. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 6 21:35:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04780 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 21:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10418; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:32:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10182 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 20:30:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.207.69.77] (dialup012.serv.net [207.207.69.77]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA20353 for ; Mon, 6 Sep 1999 18:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909070130.SAA20353@mx.serv.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 1999 18:44:06 -0700 Subject: Re: seed garlic From: "Adam Gottschalk" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 570 Filaree Farm specializes in garlic alone. Many varieties from all groups. Excellent "technical" information. Placed a largish order once and quality was excellent. Filaree Farm 182 Conconully Hwy, Okanogan, WA, 98440 (509) 422-6940 Good luck Adam ---------- >From: Leigh Hauter >To: CSA list >Subject: seed garlic >Date: Sat, Sep 4, 1999, 08:34 > >We're expanding our garlic crop next year. Do people have good sources for >great garlic? > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 8 02:13:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA24060 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 02:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA19657; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 01:10:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from casco.net (IDENT:F0qwUH89KdW8M1SM6VcxI1f9e+gpx8nY@clark.pioneer.net [204.119.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16943 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 00:26:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ip55-cu1.philomath.pioneer.net([204.119.56.55]) (2210 bytes) by casco.net via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Tue, 7 Sep 1999 22:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2.0.105 1999-Mar-3 #1 built 1999-Mar-12) Message-Id: Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Hartwig" To: Leigh Hauter Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1999 21:46:56 +0000 Subject: Re: Seed Garlic CC: Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.23) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 571 Dear Leigh, Sorry it took so long to get back to you regarding garlic costs. I have been buried in canning jars and pears all weekend. Thankfully I finished today. We have been selling through several local grocery stores as well as the farmer's markets, so for out of state sales, I needed to check with Oregon Department of Agriculture regarding regulations. They said there were none on this end, but should check with Virginia's Department of Agriculture. I didn't do that yet. The prics do not include shipping, but the price breakdown for seed cloves that have been sorted and sized into the following sizes is this: Small cloves only (16-18 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 1.90 per pound 10-49 lbs 2.35 per pound less than 10 lbs. 5.00 per pound Medium cloves only (10-12 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 2.25 per lb 10-49 lbs 3.00 per lb. less than 10 lbs 5.00 per lb. Large cloves only (6-7 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 2.50 per lb 10-49 lbs 3.00 per lb less than 10 lbs 5.50 per lb. Mixed cloves (equal amounts of all sizes) 50 lbs and up 2.15 per lb 10-49 lbs. 2.65 per lb less than 10 lbs. 5.00 per lb. The elephant garlic that we grow has taken the "Best of class" award at our county fair for the past several years. We didn't try the state fair because of distance, but many of our heads were over 1 lb. This seed is not organic seed, however. We added manure and lime to the soil, but at planting time we soak the seed in a fungicide solution to control the possibility of disease. If you are still interested, I will check with your Dept of Ag when I hear from you. Thank you, Linda Hartwig (and for Mike) Blodgett OR From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 8 11:51:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18140 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 11:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29282; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:46:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.92]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28874 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 10:42:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nt.ktg.gau.hu (nt.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.93]) by svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA22611 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:33:02 -0100 (GMT) Received: from cdr (193.225.204.78) by nt.ktg.gau.hu (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:44:51 +0200 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 17:44:51 +0200 Message-ID: X-Sender: matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Matthew Hayes Subject: promoting CSA in South Central and Eastern Europe Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 572 Dear list members/CSA farmers We are a CSA group in our second season here in Hungary. We are also just embarking on a project to promote CSA methods in the South Central and Eastern European region, concentrating first on Hungary and Romania. This project (running from Sept 1999 to Aug 2000) will include a series of workshops on the CSA theme, and putting together a "Promoting CSA toolkit" for farmers and potentials consumer groups interested in starting up groups, as well as some activities to improve our own garden/scheme. The toolkit will include a farmers' manual and some sample material, with ideas for newsletters, posters, recipes, etc. It would be very useful for us to collect any sample copies of newsletters, introductory leaflets, posters or any other information which farmers/groups have put together for their own schemes. We would be very grateful to anybody who could send any information of this kind to us (Jim and Jo at the Community Farm have already sent us something - thanks to them!), as it would help us to get the right message across, and demonstrate the broad scope of CSA ideas. Please send any material you can to: Nyitott Kert Alapitvany (Open Garden Foundation) 2100 Godollo Iskola u.14. Hungary If you need reimbursement for postage please let us know! Thank you in advance for your help. Greetings Matthew ============================================================================= Matthew Hayes Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management Godollo Agricultural University H-2103 Godollo Pater K.u.1. Hungary Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 Fax: ++36 28-415 383 E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 8 19:59:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27553 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 19:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16791; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:55:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16693 for ; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 18:55:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from amber.excite.com ([198.3.99.12]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990908235353.VWTK25391.ewey@amber.excite.com>; Wed, 8 Sep 1999 16:53:53 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, wool@willard-oh.com, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com, oeffa@iwaynet.net, jpq@mail.csuchico.edu, abundant@olypen.com, michaelafarm@seidata.com Cc: sandehill@juno.com, amrmeb@ime.net, beierfarm@alltel.net, organut@attcanada.net Subject: GMO effects on organics Message-Id: <936834831.27861.345@excite.com> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 16:53:51 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.239 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 573 ================================ Date Posted: 09/07/1999 Posted by: craffensperger@compuserve.com ================================ I would like to describe the impact of genetic engineering on our 3400 acre organic farm. It would be helpful if these sorts of observations could be confirmed (or not) by research. There are three main changes that we have seen in North Dakota. 1) We can no longer plant crops that are insect or wind pollinated which are known to be genetically modified. Accordingly, we did not plant canola this year. Canola had been a good crop in our rotation. This limits the diversity of foodstuffs both on farm and in the market place. How many farmers are changing their rotations because we can't "fence in" GMOs and keep them off our land? 2) Different pesticides are being used with GMOs which cause alarming damage across the landscape. Because of weather changes, SE North Dakota is now part of the corn and soybean belt. Pesticides used with "Liberty" Corn cause root systems to grow up instead of down. This, apparently, makes plants grow topsy turvy - the crown ends up pointing down to the earth. Other pesticides, particularly herbicides, are rejuvenated in rain. Because we live in the windiest state in the Union, the damage is ubiquitous. Of course, GMOs are not the only "cause" of new herbicides. However, they are part of the industrialized approach to agriculture which promotes chemicals which are antithetical to life. 3) The timing of herbicide spraying has changed. Farmers now spray for the entire season instead of just in the spring. While GMOs are just one of several factors instigating season-long spraying, they are a significant factor. This means that both plants and humans are exposed to pesticides from April through September. I find it ironic that I am expected to feed the world but can't expect to feed my own family because of herbicide damage to orchards, vineyards, gardens and farms. An unscientific survey among organic farmers in the upper midwest indicates that herbicide damage has increased on our land over the past 3 years. Some of you may know that research has shown that babies conceived in the spring in rural Minnesota (just next door to North Dakota) have a higher rate of birth defects. Does this mean that we need to issue warnings that we should not conceive for the six months of April-Sept. because of the risk of birth defects? Damage resulting from GMOs is not hypothetical. One of the other longest standing organic farmers in North Dakota is now asking if he will be able to continue farming and gardening, not because of the economic crisis but because the chemical damage on his farm and garden is so serious. He raises all the food for the 3 generations of family on his farm. He raises seed for garden supply companies. And he raises small grains. Unfortunately, if we want organic farming to continue, we will need to intervene ... and soon. Carolyn Raffensperger Kirschenmann Family Farms. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 9 13:29:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06189 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03295; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:24:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web803.mail.yahoo.com (web803.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03081 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 12:22:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990909172330.10988.rocketmail@web803.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [198.202.222.234] by web803.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 09 Sep 1999 10:23:30 PDT Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Fwd: Seed industry, who owns whom? To: CSAlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 FYI -- --- Misha wrote: > Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 19:42:20 -0700 > From: Misha > Subject: Seed industry, who owns whom? > To: SANET-mg > > Howdy, all-- > > Thought some of you might be interested in RAFI's updated chart on > who owns whom in the seed industry. > > http://www.rafi.org/pr/release36a.html > > > peace > misha > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Michele Gale-Sinex > Communications manager > Center for Integrated Ag Systems, UW-Madison > http://www.wisc.edu > UW voice mail: 608-262-8018 > Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH) > Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > This is my corn. You people are guests in my corn. > --Ray Kinsella (in /Field of Dreams/) > > To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command > "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". > To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command > "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". > > All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: > http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 9 14:36:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA07745 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10795; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:33:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10680 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:32:45 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dQQYWRhOP_ (3998) for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <795dbe20.25095724@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:32:04 EDT Subject: seed giants To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id NAA10681 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 I was shocked to read in Sharing the Harvest that M&M Mars Candy, Inc. had purchased Seeds of Change. The RAFI list Seed GiantsWho Owns Whom? confirms the claim. What interest does a giant company like Mars have in a small organic seed company? Does anyone have any insight on this matter? perplexed, Heidi R. Lewis CSOFC From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 9 14:51:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08327 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12285; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:48:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12234 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 13:48:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-25-250.raex.com [216.196.25.250]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA15583 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000d01befaf3$71b77d00$fa19c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Re: seed giants Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 14:45:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 Heidi, That is almost as disturbing as the recent news that Monsanto bought the Solgar vitamin company. What does a chemical giant want with a small organic supplement company? The answer in both cases I think is probably a sweet name to hide behind. A name that inspires trust and that has been trust-worthy in the past. That way, without changing their business practices at all to more healthy ones they can foist their products on an unsuspecting public and continue on in the greed mode with a portion of the demographic pie that would/does avoid their products if labled more honestly/realisticly. That is my opinion anyway, Carol Busson -----Original Message----- From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Thursday, September 09, 1999 2:35 PM Subject: seed giants >I was shocked to read in Sharing the Harvest that M&M Mars Candy, Inc. had >purchased Seeds of Change. The RAFI list Seed GiantsWho Owns Whom? confirms >the claim. What interest does a giant company like Mars have in a small >organic seed company? Does anyone have any insight on this matter? >perplexed, >Heidi R. Lewis >CSOFC > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 9 19:20:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13924 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07409; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07311 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:12:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sammy.excite.com ([199.172.153.124]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.02 201-229-111-106) with ESMTP id <19990909231137.VKM2517.gigi@sammy.excite.com> for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 16:11:37 -0700 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: CSA book & soybeans Message-Id: <936918697.8729.962@excite.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 16:11:37 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.63.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 577 It was posted not too long ago about a book put out by a California Extension Service about starting your own CSA, I lost my note on that and would like to order that book. If anyone can help me I'd appreciate it. Also our first crop of organic soybeans ae in. I was wondering if anyone else out there has or does grow soybeans. We will be selling them at the local farmers market and twice a week to a large natural foods store and hopefully some resturants. We are not certified organic, but we are registered with the state of Oregon. I would like to hear anyone's experience with marketing them. Teresa Kohut Spirit Gardens, Oregon e-mail: tree-bone@excite.com ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 9 19:32:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA14943 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA09117; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:28:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from atom.ushmm.org (atom.ushmm.org [207.77.113.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09028 for ; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 18:28:11 -0500 (CDT) From: arwen@kih.net Received: from inetmail.ushmm.org (inetmail.ushmm.org [207.77.113.161]) by atom.ushmm.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA09099; Thu, 9 Sep 1999 19:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from POP3 Client by inetmail.ushmm.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R8.10.00) id AA936919395; Thu, 09 Sep 99 19:23:25 -0500 Message-Id: <9909099369.AA936919395@inetmail.ushmm.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R8.10.00 Date: Wed, 08 Sep 99 02:11:27 -0500 To: Cc: Subject: Re: Seed Garlic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: "cc:Mail Note Part" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 Dear Leigh, Sorry it took so long to get back to you regarding garlic costs. I have been buried in canning jars and pears all weekend. Thankfully I finished today. We have been selling through several local grocery stores as well as the farmer's markets, so for out of state sales, I needed to check with Oregon Department of Agriculture regarding regulations. They said there were none on this end, but should check with Virginia's Department of Agriculture. I didn't do that yet. The prics do not include shipping, but the price breakdown for seed cloves that have been sorted and sized into the following sizes is this: Small cloves only (16-18 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 1.90 per pound 10-49 lbs 2.35 per pound less than 10 lbs. 5.00 per pound Medium cloves only (10-12 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 2.25 per lb 10-49 lbs 3.00 per lb. less than 10 lbs 5.00 per lb. Large cloves only (6-7 cloves per pound) 50 lbs and up 2.50 per lb 10-49 lbs 3.00 per lb less than 10 lbs 5.50 per lb. Mixed cloves (equal amounts of all sizes) 50 lbs and up 2.15 per lb 10-49 lbs. 2.65 per lb less than 10 lbs. 5.00 per lb. The elephant garlic that we grow has taken the "Best of class" award at our county fair for the past several years. We didn't try the state fair because of distance, but many of our heads were over 1 lb. This seed is not organic seed, however. We added manure and lime to the soil, but at planting time we soak the seed in a fungicide solution to control the possibility of disease. If you are still interested, I will check with your Dept of Ag when I hear from you. Thank you, Linda Hartwig (and for Mike) Blodgett OR From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 10 02:03:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA20436 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 02:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA10319; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:58:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA10227 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 00:57:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 8056 invoked from network); 10 Sep 1999 05:57:06 -0000 Received: from i48-40-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.62.170) (216.26.62.170) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 10 Sep 1999 05:57:06 -0000 Message-ID: <37D89D70.774D@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 09 Sep 1999 22:56:03 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA list Subject: Re: seed giants References: <795dbe20.25095724@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 Concerning the consolidation of seed company ownership, and corporate ownership in general: Please remember: legally, the overriding legal obligation of for-profit corporations is to maximize returns for their shareholders. Legally, this obligation overrides all other obligations, including the obligation to obey laws which are in conflict with this objective. Time after time corporations have, in court, been shown to willingly and intentionally break laws in order to maximize profits for stockholders. This has been an acceptable defense, even in cases of premeditated murder (e.g. the Dalkon Shield, the Pinto gas tank). Keep in mind that no corporation has ever suffered the equivelent of a jail term or capital punishment for any crime. I.e. no company has ever been forced to stop operating for a period of years equivalent to a jail sentence such as you or I would serve, nor has any corporation been dissolved as you or I might face capital punishment for murder. Occasionally a corporate officer may be charged with a crime, but usually that is a civil, not a criminal charge. And remember, that's not the corporation, that's a person. If you think, "but a corporation isn't a person!" you are in dissagreemnet with the supreme court, who declared corporations have the rights of a person (in deciding that corporations have the right to free speech and could make unlimited political contributions). The rights, but not the responsibilities. Expect corporations to do ANYTHING IT TAKES to make a profit. Is that enough reason for you not to own stocks or bonds? Enough reason to buy from small, locally owned businesses (preferably not incorporated), even if the price is higher? I hope so. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon (Take a guess - is this one of my hot buttons?) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 10 10:12:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24637 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08262; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:08:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from baldr.metro.net (smtp1.metro.net [205.217.52.128]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08112 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:06:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ig120.5.dial.innovation.com (ig120.5.dial.innovation.com [209.249.5.120]) by baldr.metro.net (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ac0i) with ESMTP id la978495 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:25:32 -0700 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990910140424.0390acac@mail.metro.net> X-Sender: ctbowland@mail.metro.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 07:04:24 -0700 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Chris & Tanya Bowland Subject: Re: CSA book & soybeans Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 Teresa, I have a borrowed copy of this folder. It is excellent, and even better than I imagined. Call the Placer County Coop Extension office at 916-889-7397 as they printed it. The area code may have changed since printing. Good Luck. At 04:11 PM 9/9/99 PDT, you wrote: > It was posted not too long ago about a book put out by a California >Extension Service about starting your own CSA, I lost my note on that and >would like to order that book. If anyone can help me I'd appreciate it. > >Also our first crop of organic soybeans ae in. I was wondering if anyone >else out there has or does grow soybeans. We will be selling them at the >local farmers market and twice a week to a large natural foods store and >hopefully some resturants. We are not certified organic, but we are >registered with the state of Oregon. I would like to hear anyone's >experience with marketing them. > >Teresa Kohut >Spirit Gardens, Oregon >e-mail: tree-bone@excite.com > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 10 12:56:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28322 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 12:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA25346; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:53:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25186 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:52:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.142.46.52] (209-142-35-91.stk.jps.net [209.142.35.91]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29870; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:52:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990910140424.0390acac@mail.metro.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 09:57:39 -0800 To: Chris & Tanya Bowland , csa-l@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: CSA book & soybeans Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 581 Teresa, The book is called Making the Connection, Community Supported Agriculture - a Manual for Farmers. Yes, the area code has changed, it's now 530. Cost is $25.00 plus shipping. e-mail to ceplacer@ucdavis.edu for more info. Marcie Rosenzweig, contributing author Making the Connection author Market Farm Forms - Spreadsheet Templates for Planning and Organizing Data on Diversified Market Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 10 14:12:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29637 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02653; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:05:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from frontiernet.net (node9.frontiernet.net [209.130.129.194]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02517 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:04:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from v1cy2-scd (as5300-6-84.roc.ny.frontiernet.net [209.130.139.189]) by frontiernet.net (8.8.8a/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA37556 for ; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:04:17 -0400 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:11:01 -0400 Message-ID: <01BEFB96.4FB23DA0.scassdon@frontiernet.net> From: Sarah C Donaldson Reply-To: "scassdon@frontiernet.net" To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: PLEASE REMOVE ME FROM LIST Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 10:59:36 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 582 Listmaster: I have tried to get off this list for over 2 months. I can't take all this email w/my other responsibilities and this list is eating up any space I have for other things. It would be nicer if you had a web page I could check periodically for discussion topics. Please confirm that you are indeed taking my email off of this list. Patiently, but frustrated, Sarah -----Original Message----- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 13 16:44:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28284 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA20506; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:35:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20265 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:33:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dotty.excite.com ([199.172.152.205]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990913203251.LBF19424.ewey@dotty.excite.com> for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:32:51 -0700 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: CSA Trust Fund Message-Id: <937254768.5105.389@excite.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:32:48 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.63.21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 583 I found this little tid bit on the internet about the Equity Trust Fund, in Voluntown, CT and how there was a fund setup in 1996 for Conservation and to help CSA farmers buy land and finance capital improvements. I called the phone number listed, but it was no longer in service. (203-376-6174). Has anyone heard this funding? I would like to hear more about it. Teresa Kohut Spirit Gardens ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 13 16:49:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28466 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 16:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21139; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:41:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20393 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:34:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ringo.excite.com ([199.172.152.145]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990913203400.LFE19424.ewey@ringo.excite.com> for ; Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:34:00 -0700 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: CSA Trust Fund Message-Id: <937254840.6398.552@excite.com> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:34:00 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.63.21 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 584 I found this little tid bit on the internet about the Equity Trust Fund, in Voluntown, CT and how there was a fund setup in 1996 for Conservation and to help CSA farmers buy land and finance capital improvements. I called the phone number listed, but it was no longer in service. (203-376-6174). Has anyone heard this about this funding? I would like to hear more about it. Teresa Kohut Spirit Gardens ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 14 10:31:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13587 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10310; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10181 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:26:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ms121960 (user-2ive4sh.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.19.145]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28093 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001601befebd$493c1160$9113f7a5@ms121960> From: "Sarah Milstein" To: Subject: Re: CSA Trust Fund Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:27:32 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 585 >I found this little tid bit on the internet about the Equity Trust Fund, in >Voluntown, CT and how there was a fund setup in 1996 for Conservation and to >help CSA farmers buy land and finance capital improvements. I called the >phone number listed, but it was no longer in service. (203-376-6174). Has >anyone heard this funding? I would like to hear more about it. > >Teresa Kohut >Spirit Gardens The Equity Trust is a highly reputable and effective organization that has a program to help CSA farmers and communities resolve their land-tenure issues. They have helped my CSA farm in the past and are working with the farmers and community again as we search for a new piece of land this season. The area code of their phone number has changed; the number with new area code is 860/376.6174. Sarah Milstein Roxbury Farm Member From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 14 21:25:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28013 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA16059; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:20:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15912 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:18:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.88]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id VAA01811 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (oneal@localhost) by seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id VAA21078 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Precedence: first-class Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:18:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Gideon Porth X-Sender: oneal@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: seeking ag. position Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 586 Hello, I'm writing in search of a farming position for the coming season. I am currently employed as an Assistant Grower with a non-profit called The Food Project, a youth development organization that operates a 21-acre mixed vegetable farm outside of Boston, working with both urban and sub-urban youth to grow food for homeless shelters, two farmers markets and a CSA. This is my third full season farming, having spent the last two apprenticing at a 160-member CSA in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I am well experienced with the CSA model and in all aspects of farm management and am seeking a position as a farm manager for the coming season. Please let me know if you have a position available or if you would like a copy of my resume. Thanks! Gideon Porth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 14 21:49:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28427 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 21:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18493; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:46:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18430 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:45:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [12.73.98.193] by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.07.07 118-134) with SMTP id <19990915014514.HECH17922@[12.73.98.193]> for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 01:45:14 +0000 Message-ID: <002701beff1d$b217ef00$c162490c@ELN/cyberbamm> From: "Laura Bammer, M.A." To: "CSA List" Subject: OSALT Harvest Festival? Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 18:56:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEFEE2.E6C9C740" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 587 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEFEE2.E6C9C740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi there, this message is actually addressed to Will Newman of OSALT --=20 Are you still planning to have your fall open-farm day this Saturday, = September 18 at OSALT?? =20 I need a confirmation -- I'm planning on coming and inviting CSA friends = down. =20 Thanks in advance, Laura Bammer ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEFEE2.E6C9C740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi there, this message is actually = addressed to=20 Will Newman of OSALT --

    Are you still planning to have your fall = open-farm day this Saturday, September 18 at OSALT??
     
    I need a confirmation -- I'm planning on coming and inviting CSA friends = down.
     
    Thanks in advance, Laura=20 Bammer
    ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01BEFEE2.E6C9C740-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 07:03:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03797 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA25225; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:59:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA25165 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:59:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ELJ6T92R; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:59:16 EDT To: oneal@umich.edu Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 06:54:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for farm help during October Message-ID: <19990915.065427.-3195495.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-5,7-14 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 588 We are looking for a helper for the month of October. Duties would include building raised beds, preparing logs for mushroom plugs, moving things into place, working with goats, etc. We also need a barn built. It is partially up already. Can provide room and board and small stipend per week. No drugs, alcohol or bad attitudes. We live near Knoxville, TN. Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 08:23:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04529 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01037; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:19:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00951 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:19:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sammy.excite.com ([199.172.153.124]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990915121829.DVTH5916.gigi@sammy.excite.com> for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:18:29 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: How Do You Promote Your CSA Message-Id: <937397908.8086.984@excite.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 05:18:28 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.112 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 589 It's time to start thinking about recruitment for next season and I was wondering How everyone promotes their CSA? We have been having problems getting members (had 6 this year and will lose 2 of those to moves). We had a farm tour but unfortunately got no prospective customers to come, just other market gardeners and CSA growers even though I did advertise thru woord of mouth, fliers at all places we sell produuce and eggs and even OEFFA sent a big mailing. Now I am working on a promotional flier for this next season (and finding it is impossible to explain this concept on one or even two pages). I would love to see other farms' fliers if possible. In the past I haven't done much with info meetings -had one the first season but only 4 folks showed and no one of that group joined. last year we had no info meeting. I am finding if we don't get at least 20 members (30 to 40 would be better) next year the CSA will not be finacially viable for us (it accounted for about 10% this year) and we may have to drop it. I don't want to do this as I feel CSA is important to heal our shattered culture. Agriculture is the soul of any culture and we are losing our ag soul fast Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 08:33:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04652 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01892; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:30:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01839 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 07:30:03 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id oAZHERmdh_ (4002); Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1b860a02.2510eb29@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:29:29 EDT Subject: Re: How Do You Promote Your CSA To: goodows@excite.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id HAA01840 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 590 Lucy, Our city newspaper has done articles on CSA from time to time (including info. and photos of our farm) which create local interest. We put out promotional material much too late, I'm afraid (usually February.) This year we'll start earlier! I try to display fliers along with a poster at the local community center, library, farm & garden center, downtown shops & "healthy" restaurants, and even at some doctors', massage therapists' or chiropractors' offices. I'd like to read more about other CSA's recruiting methods. Heidi R. Lewis CSOFC Fredericksburg, VA. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 10:11:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06302 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12068; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:07:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com (smtp.thestreet.com [208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12007 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:07:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([209.122.224.165]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 09:45:11 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990915100523.00f1311c@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 10:05:26 +0000 To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: How Do You Promote Your CSA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id JAA12008 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 591 Hello all, This was our first year with a CSA, so we were starting from scratch. In hindsight, it seems like our promotional efforts moved through very discreet phases. In March we contacted several local newspapers (including a press release . . . yikes!). In late April one of the larger weekly papers published a nice front-page feature story about our effort. At the same time, we ran a moderate-sized display ad (4 X 8 inches) in the same paper, starting the day the story ran and then for the next three weeks. The add costs $440 for the four weeks. When people would contact us as a result of the ad, we'd immediately (same day) mail them our brochure and then followed up a week later by phone. This phase accounted for maybe our first 30 shares. Not sure what else to attribute it to, but this initial groundswell lead to a significant word-of-mouth "second wave" of subscribers. We took this to the extreme in one case, offering one gentleman a free share if he actually delivered on his enthusiastic claim that he had at least six or eight neighbors who wanted to join in. He did it. Also, we drop off at a bakery in Seattle. We heavily canvased that neighborhood, dropping our flyers on just about every doorstep within a short walk of the bakery/cafe. This "networking" phase accounted for maybe 20 more. As well, we contacted several local medium-to-large high tech companies. A couple were willing to offer shares to their employees via a company-wide email. We now drop nearly 20 boxes at these offices. And finally, we got really flexible after hitting our goal of 60 shares. Once the 20-week CSA started, we allowed another batch of people--mostly those who saw the boxes at a friends's house--to sign up for a pro-rated 16-week subscription. This took us to our final tally of 90 subscribers. Some relevant details: -- We serve the Seattle metro area -- We really fill our boxes -- Our shares are $485 for 20 weeks -- We write up a detailed newsletter in each box.These get passed around, sowing the seeds for next season. -- We're even giving T-Shirts to our members ($5.40/shirt = good marketing on the backs of our best fans). -- We are aggressive users of contact management software (ACT!) that allows us to keep in close contact with prospects. Roughly half of our members came in after getting a second contact. Like everything else in life, it's follow through that makes the difference. Sorry to go so long. I was really anxious about all of this when we mapped things out last fall and winter. Due to a large dose of good luck, we exceeded our goal. But there were many long days spent worrying. I'm expecting to lose about half of our current members. But at least we now have a base to build on! Good luck everyone. Just a little more to go! Jeff Herr The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 08:29 AM 9/15/99 EDT, HowdiHeidi@aol.com wrote: >Lucy, >Our city newspaper has done articles on CSA from time to time (including >info. and photos of our farm) which create local interest. We put out >promotional material much too late, I'm afraid (usually February.) This year >we'll start earlier! I try to display fliers along with a poster at the local >community center, library, farm & garden center, downtown shops & "healthy" >restaurants, and even at some doctors', massage therapists' or chiropractors' >offices. >I'd like to read more about other CSA's recruiting methods. >Heidi R. Lewis >CSOFC >Fredericksburg, VA. > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 13:21:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10589 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00491; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:16:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA00337 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 12:15:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.66.34.232] by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id xa273075 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:09:57 -0600 Message-ID: <37DFD4F8.C87C405B@gilanet.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 11:18:57 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: How Do You Promote Your CSA References: <937397908.8086.984@excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 592 We started our CSA last year with about 30 members, and have gone to 60 this year. Most of our members come from word of mouth, and we actively encourage members to advertise for us. Some have taken a bunch of fliers and made announcements at their churches or businesses, and this has been quite effective. We did very limited advertising. We have been featured a couple times in a local monthly free paper. This year, a very effective strategy we used was to go to the first few farmers' markets of the Spring with no food. Our stand has had the most food of any local grower for several years, so when we showed up in the Spring with just starts and seeds, everybody wanted to know why we didn't have any food. We told them we had plenty of food, but it was all going to CSA members, and they were welcome to join. We got about ten members from this I think. Of course, these were last minute subscriptions and we'd already planted enough to provide the shares. When we did this, we set up big posters with photos of the farm and info about CSA for people to read, too. The photos in particular really drew people in, and we had fun with it. Good luck with your marketing efforts! Stef From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 15 16:51:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15228 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21510; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:47:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21366 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 15:46:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from khansen (awi0113.animalwelfare.com [207.96.27.29]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA08671 for ; Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:46:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kelly Hansen" To: Subject: New farmer and strawberry plants Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 16:53:08 -0400 Message-ID: <007201beffbc$50760940$1d1b60cf@khansen.animalwelfare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <37DFD4F8.C87C405B@gilanet.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 593 Hi everyone! I've lurked for the better part of this year, and I am thrilled to now actually have a farm and a CSA plan to post questions about. Thanks to everyone, especially Lucy and Dori, who has posted such useful information on the list. Next year we hope to put in strawberries. Do you think we should do a few long rows as a test plot, or put in a substantial amount of plants, say to supply a 30 member CSA? Also, can anyone recommend particular varieties or a nursery to buy plants from. I have information about Aarons Creek Farm (Virginia) which carries Chandler and Sweet Charlie varieties. Anyone do U-pick? Is this a giant pain in the rear? Our farm in is Northern Virginia--4 miles outside of Purcellville in Loudoun County. Great CSA marketing thread! Thanks again, Kelly Hansen Wishing Rock Vegetables & Flowers From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 16 13:55:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04911 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05779; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:50:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05542 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 12:48:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.129.20 (sa-165-227-129-20.cruzio.com [165.227.129.20]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA21148; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37E0CCE1.A4E@mariquita.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 10:56:32 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lucy Goodman-Owsley CC: CSA list Subject: more CSA promotion ideas References: <937397908.8086.984@excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 594 Another note on CSA promotion: We have had good success with mailing lists: We keep all addresses of interested people and former members and mail them a flyer (last year it included a letter from the farmer on what 'fresh' really is) once a year. My midwives also gave me their mailing list and that signed some people on too. Some businesses might be willing to trade their mailing list for produce. One other idea is from our neighbor who also has a CSA similar to ours: He does a slide show with a question and answer period in the EARLY spring for parents at preschools. That might be a good way to promote your farm for folks who are just starting out. I'm interested in other peoples ideas as well... Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 16 16:21:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08368 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 16:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA21032; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:13:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20913 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:12:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from claude.excite.com ([199.172.152.181]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990916201208.CIJE17650.kuku@claude.excite.com>; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:12:08 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: pastpat@thepoint.net, amrmeb@ime.net, lcano000@email.msn.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net, wool@willard-oh.com, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, Organic4um@aol.com Cc: MikeMcG@RodalePress.com, beierfarm@alltel.net, oeffa@iwaynet.net, organut@attcanada.net, jpq@mail.csuchico.edu, YSZX29E@prodigy.com, mranville@hotmail.com Subject: GMO song (LOL) Message-Id: <937512732.9964.115@excite.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 13:12:12 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.76 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 595 Gleaned this wonderful little 'un from a newsgroup: To the tune of Bob Seger's "Old Time Rock and Roll": Just leave those old hybrids in the bag I want the ones with letters on the tag BT and STS are how I should go I want the Brand New GMO Don't try to breed your beans the old way You need to add some bits of new DNA I want to spray my field and just let it grow Give me the Brand New GMO I want that Brand New GMO Biogenetics gonna soothe my soul 'Cause they weren't Roundup Ready long before I want that Brand New GMO Don't try to get me to cultivate My fields are cleaner than a Mormon date Who needs a plow when you've got Monsanto And all those Brand New GMO's Call me a monarch-killer if you may Say they won't buy in Paris or the UK I'll take a discount of a dime or so To plant the Brand New GMO I want that Brand New GMO, Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 16 19:53:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12473 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA11384; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:46:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11277 for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 18:45:48 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dEDKa04664 (4188) for ; Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9c079cbf.2512db06@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 19:45:10 EDT Subject: Where has Dori been? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id SAA11279 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 596 I got this message form Dori which explains why we haven't heard from her much this summer.... Heidi Lewis Fredericksburg, VA Computer took a major lightning hit more than two months ago -- killed the modem that had replaced the previous lightning-damaged modem, and it turns out that warranty replacements have no warranty. Bummer! I have very, very limited time (1-hour blocks) to use the system at the public library, which will close on November 1. The special referendum on Tuesday's election failed. I can't believe it! Staples Office Superstore told me "sure, bring your account up to date with a $180 payment and you can use the account again." I paid the money, they lied. Closed my account. Embarrassing _and_ infuriating! Been out of work since January. Just finishing a one-month temp job at 1/3 of my previous salary (take-home is less than unemployment was paying me). Garden totally destroyed by drought. On Monday I start a new PERMANENT job where the benefits are worth almost as much as the salary, and it's important work -- teaching assistant in remedial writing for high school students whose communication skills are so poor that it's likely they'll fail to pass the state requirements for a simple diploma, much less advance their education. So it's Right Livelihood even though it doesn't pay enough to live on. I just interviewed for a second 35-hour-a-week job helping to start a business incubator for poor and otherwise disadvantaged people in the region who are now operating or want to start a "specialty foods" business. I'll be helping them to network for bulk buying and services, advertising, finding good (organic!) suppliers, etc. Who could be more perfect for the job? And it's mostly nights and weekends, busiest time of year is July-August. Guess what? The other job is 10 months a year and guess what months I'm free????? If they aren't smart enough to grab me on this one I think I'm going to go talk to their board of directors. I'm now up to 11 goats. One has been sick for a couple of days -- I think it was just too many little green apples. She's been constipated and tonight if she hasn't got things moving I'm going to be doing the Fleet enema routine with her. Fun! It's RAINING and I have 1/2 of a bale of hay left. 80 bales were supposed to be delivered on Sunday but the person who said they were going to take a lifetime membership in the community farm at $250 never showed up and the farmer understandably isn't going to part with his precious stuff without cash in hand. So after my 6 PM appointment here in Corning and a stop at the grocery store for the Fleet and Milk of Magnesia for Janice Rand, I'll be spending some time calling a few neighbors to beg for a couple of bales to take me through this Sunday. I got another paycheck and will have the cash. In other words, situation is absolutely normal here at the farm. I can read my dorigreen@exotrope.net mail but can't post to any of my lists from here. I do expect to buy a new modem within a couple of weeks and be back on-line from home. Feel free to post any or all of this info to the list. Still looking for the right partners/housemates, still not giving up on the CSA. In a way I feel vindicated by the library closure -- it ain't all me, this is a really tough area in which to get people to work together or to appreciate the resources they've got. Recognizing this doesn't mean I'm giving up on them -- yet. With the two jobs I might just put the whole 20 acres into cover crops next year -- won't hurt the land or me at all. Dori From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Sep 17 08:33:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20518 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA02446; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:30:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02350 for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 07:29:24 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dISZa03913 (4440) for ; Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1999 08:28:48 EDT Subject: Re: Where has Dori been? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id HAA02351 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 597 Thanks for the update, Heidi. [But I think you mis-labelled Dori's gender.] John Fletcher Whoops. My apologies to Dori. Heidi From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 20 08:12:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12886 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 08:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA18711; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:04:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mb05.swip.net (mb05.swip.net [193.12.122.209]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA18582 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:03:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [212.151.229.150] (d212-151-229-150.swipnet.se [212.151.229.150]) by mb05.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA21802; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:03:31 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: mg25209@gaia.swip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:04:11 +0200 To: Terry Harris , CSA-List From: hans.von.essen@c.lrf.se (Hans von Essen) Subject: Re: Cyberdevelopment & CSA Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 598 Dear Terry Would be interesting to hear news from you. I work with rural development based on biologically self sufficient agriculture strategies and I work with several different villages in Sweden, including where I live. There are beginnings on several places. I can for example mention two villages in Sweden where all farms are ecological. And recently I heard that even though rural liquidation is going on and farmers are giving up - seven farmers every day - the rural population is growing. Small and middle size towns are very much in crisis and are loosing population that move to the Megalopolis areas, but the population in the rural areas in Sweden is actually growing. Probably the "small" towns are too big for the new development. In Sweden at least these are often dominated by one rather large company while the countryside is all one man companies that network together informally. I think the tide is beginning to turn, but you must look close to see it. However the networks are very different and very difficult to overview. There is work towards real "metod boxes" and samples of development descriptions, but this is all in the beginning. Where do you stand? Do you include agriculture and local food in your conciderations and how? Cyberdevelopment and tourism can be good for the countryside, but it can also be the opposite. How do you keep on the right path? Yours Hans von Essen At 19.28 98-12-15, Terry Harris wrote: >Hello all...I'm new to the list, but only because I just learned of its >existance. I'd like to offer this as an introduction to ICRA. > >FORWARDED RESPONSE TO A MESSAGE on the NE FOOD List titled: "How Long Can >You Dog-Paddle?" > >Many people in the western hemisphere are worried that this fall's warm >temperatures may be evidence of global warming. However, here's another >point of view and an invitation to act. > >Look at the world's weather and you will find that Russia is in a deep >freeze. So maybe the artic jet stream is tilted a little off axis >bringing cold weather to the opposite side of the globe. While I believe >that we need to seriously address the issue of greenhouse gasses, >predictions of a decade of doom, I feel, are alarmist strategies. > >I think I understand why this tactic is used, however, as politicians and >policy leaders think only in terms of their window of leadership (term of >office). Vision is often penalized because the path to that vision is not >an easy one. The results are not immediate but the hardships associated >with these policies are. Furthermore, with less than 15% of congressional >districts being comprised by a majority of rural residents, we in rural >regions are victim of the "politics of suburbia" (Chuck Fluharty - >Director of RuPRI, Rural Policy Research Institute http://www.rupri.org ). > > >What are rural regions going to do? Protest or strategize. Think clearly >and solve the riddle. > >Let's put forward-thinking people on a project to design a strategy for >development that accounts for issues that are critical to us all: >[1] safety of our food supply (alternative food systems and other CSA >strategies, see the work of Bill Heffernan Univ of Missouri) >[2] retained role for the family farmer (some predict that farmers will be >reduced to heavy machine operators on the payroll of - or under contract >to - one of several grain processors left or one of the big five R&D >agrichemical companies http://www.recap.com) >[3] sustainable development strategies (industrial product manufacturing >clusters, etc) >[4] systematic migration of people (rural population trends, see Daryl >Hobbs http://www.oseda.missouri.edu) >[5] penturbian rural development land use planning (websearch on "Jack >Lessinger" or "penturbia") >[6] location independent workers (telecommuting support centers -- rather >than move the people to the jobs, let's move the jobs to the people and >let them live closer to their work station http://www.denverpost.com [Dec >8 "Summit tackles tech worker gap"]) > >I am one of those forward thinking people, and I have been working on a >development stategy that will be used in the information age to complement >the existing industrial development model of planned industrial parks as >sites for recruited companies. I co-founded an organization called ICRA >(Initiative for a Competitive Rural America) which created and is >employing cyberdevelopment strategies. This model has drawn the attention >of rural development policy leaders and has led me to begin the formal >study of this strategy as a doctoral student in Rural Sociology at the >University of Missouri-Columbia. > >I would like to recruit like-minded people who believe that we can change: >[1] the way traditional land use planning is taught (subdivisions, strip >retail, shopping centers, rings around the city) >[2] the policies of development incentives that make the conversion of an >acre of farmland to an acre of industrial land so profitable to tax >supported entities (in Missouri this conversion results in a pre-tax >abatement revenue increase of 2400%) >[3] the mindset of companies in thinking that their knowledge workers have >to be in the office or that all of their employees have to be in the same >town >[4] the thinking of rural community leaders to understand that the >consolidation of the agribiochemical and grain processing industries is >already underway, and that without organized cooperative strategies, the >future may be already beyond their control > >Give me your thoughts. I have rural communities that have already >participated in testing the cyberdevelopment model. I would like to learn >about the efforts of others, and how I might become involved (if I can >help). My intent is to create an economic incentive to pursue the virtue >of organizations associated with NE FOOD, MESA, CSA-L, etc. Your >strategies can be part of a comprehensive and politically marketable >change in the way developers think about the future. > >Thanks for your time in reading this material. > >Terry Harris >Initiative for a Competitive Rural America >1608 SE Long Place >Lee's Summit, MO 64063 > >icra@qni.com >(816)525-8150 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 20 15:12:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20992 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29294; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:07:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ns1.bridgernet.com (ns1.bridgernet.com [216.190.234.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA29204 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:06:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909201906.OAA29204@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 8899 invoked from network); 20 Sep 1999 19:05:58 -0000 Received: from lo-a-19.bridgernet.com (HELO pbiblogan) (216.190.234.83) by caucusi.bridgernet.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 1999 19:05:58 -0000 X-Sender: jamison@mail.bridgernet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:54:14 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: jamison@bridgernet.com (Paul, Michelle, Johanna Jamison) Subject: carrot seeds Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 599 Greetings! Has anyone out there collected carrot seed and found a way to strip them of their natural velcro? I had no idea I would run into this, having never collected befor, but I must say I am in awe by this seed dispersal mech. My husky could distridute them, but probably not in the straight rows my operation requires, while my little earthway seeder will have a heck of a time. So.. any suggestions would be helpfull. Thankyou in advance. Michelle at Magpie Produce From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 21 10:28:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04867 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28234; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.74]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28065 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:09:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from regenerative.earthlink.net (pool0418.cvx7-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.165.163]) by falcon.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA03725 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990921070252.00894610@earthlink.net> X-Sender: regenerative@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:02:52 -0700 To: CSA Networking List From: Fred Chambers Subject: Position Announcement - Job Coach - Casa Colina, So.Calif. In-Reply-To: <199909210700.CAA04140@firefly.prairienet.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 600 JOB ANNOUNCEMENT-August 5, 1999 Job Coach Horticultural Therapy and Training Program Casa Colina / Career Development Center http://www.casacolina.org/ Exciting and dynamic position offered in the nations leading Horticultural Therapy and Training Program. Best of what horticulture has to offer in addition to the opportunity to serve a wide range of people with disabilities. Full time (and possible part-time position) available for Job Coach to support and train people with disabilities in diverse horticultural settings: Landscape Maintenance, Nursery Production, Public and Demonstration Gardens, and more. General Description: The position of Job Coach is responsible for directing and training individuals with disabilities at horticulture job sites; to provide intensive task related training on the job. Job Coach attitudes and actions also impact the way client, co-workers, supervisors and employers interact with one another. The Job Coach is utilized in maintaining a professional and supportive work environment for all persons involved. Summary of Duties and Responsibilities: Job Coach will be responsible for leading and training crews of people with a wide range of disabilities, performing evaluation and preparation of work environments, working with rehabilitation staff in assessing and addressing clients work performance and behaviors, communicating with case managers, writing weekly progress notes regarding each individuals goals and participation in program, developing and implementing instruction plans for clients at horticulture work sites, maintaining on-the-job records and other relevant data, following up with employers and customers on client as well as job performance, meeting with and informing Horticulture Program Coordinator and Case Manager on a weekly basis regarding client and program needs, transporting clients to worksites, operating and maintaining passenger vehicles and horticultural equipment, and further duties as assigned by Horticulture Program Coordinator. Summary of Skills, Knowledge and Abilities: Job Coach must possess a desire to work with people with disabilities, be able to communicate effectively with a variety of people, be able to develop and sustain employment opportunities, show tact, maturity, perseverance and organization, demonstrate knowledge of horticulture, nursery skills, and landscaping, acquire and demonstrate knowledge of client rights in the areas of confidentiality, informed consent, intervention procedures and regulations of Title 17 and Title 2, advocate for all workers in creating and maintaining relations in the best interests of the client. Summary of Minimum Qualifications: Job Coach must possess sufficient education, training, and work experience to accomplish the duties and responsibilities of the position; have a valid California Drivers License, with no more than one moving violation in the previous three years, and no convictions for Driving Under the Influence of intoxicants or Reckless Driving during the previous three years; be capable of safely performing functions indigenous to the position, including routine or repeated and extended periods of standing, walking, physical exertion, climbing ladders, reaching, operating in confined or uncomfortable environs, lifting and carrying loads; and using tools and equipment. It is the policy of Casa Colina to provide reasonable accommodation. (Refer to C2-200 Employment Policies and Procedures). Note: Employment is contingent on successfully completing a post offer physical and the ability to present documented evidence of the right to work and remain in the United States. This Description is a Summary Version Only. Please request a full Job Description as well as general information about the Casa Colina Horticultural Therapy and Training Program from Anne Lumsdun, Program Secretary by calling (909) 596-7733 x 2245 or writing to Casa Colina Horticultural Therapy and Training Program 2850 N. Garey Ave., Pomona, CA 91769-6001 FMChambers@csupomona.edu Agricultural Sciences ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Black Walnut Alliance is one of many campus and local groups encouraging Cal Poly to explore environmentally responsible uses of campus green spaces. Visit and post at: http://www.regen.org (BWA, SAFER, Regen site that kick's butt!) http://www.csupomona.edu/~vltenbrink/index.html (Victoria's Black Walnut Page) http://www.rokcircle.com (The Wilderness Forum) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 21 11:42:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06376 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA07078; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:33:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA06978 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:32:27 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dJLFa25313 (4246) for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:31:51 EDT Subject: re: How do you promote your CSA To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 601 Please pass along to the list -- My major promotional work this year is going to be through churches -- especially between Hallowe'en and Thanksgiving. Face to face with small groups who understand the spiritual aspect of gardening has always been my most effective recruitment. If I don't have 30 "garden co-op" members by the end of this year, my CSA will also not be economically sustainable and I'll refund their money and put everything into cover crops next year. I've decided that this is my break-even number to make it remotely worth doing and not just being a time and money drain on me. This year I discovered for sure that operating a four-acre garden with just three members is just about as much work as operating it for 30. It isn't written anywhere that I have to die just because CSA is a good idea. I've split my operation into general memberships ($25/year, individual or family) and co-op memberships (garden, goat herd, poultry flock, nursery and gardening supplies, affordable housing). This way people who don't want goat milk aren't supporting the goat herd, people who don't have their own gardens aren't supporting our licensed nursery operation -- but the people who _do_ receive benefits from those operations are making a contribution toward their sustainability. This too is an experiment. Dori Green Heidi - would you forward this to the list for me, please? Thanks! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 21 11:48:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06473 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08472; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:46:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail5.globalserve.net (mail5.globalserve.net [209.90.128.165]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08187 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:44:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alivewater.net (dialin13.vancouver.globalserve.net [209.47.102.77]) by mail5.globalserve.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17464; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 11:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37E7B724.522C27A7@alivewater.net> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:49:42 -0800 From: Mikael Lund Reply-To: info@alivewater.net Organization: Nordic Living Water Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Seeking new friends and supporters of our work with Water/ Nordic Living Water Systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 602 I wish to introduce you to my work with revitalizing of Water and my work with neutralizing of geopathic stress. 1) The Original Water Revitalizer. 2) The CETs. One is a Water Revitalizer, which you install in your house or apartment. It transforms the tap Water into what you can call living Water, revitalized Water or simply alive Water. It will make our use of Water less of a burden to the environment. If a whole village was to use the Original Water Revitalizer, it would have a profound effect upon the surrounding eco-systems. See our research pages on the web site. http://www.alivewater.net/pages/Research.html See http://www.alivewater.net The other product is the CETs (Cosmic Energy Transformer) which neutralizes geopathic stress as well as the negative effects of EMF stress creating an atmosphere of harmony. See http://www.alivewater.net/pages/PET.html I am building a global organization, getting these two products out to as many people as possible. See if you are interested in possible including these products in your work. If you know of anyone, who you feel would be interested, please share the information. Thank you for you time and for the good work you have already been doing for the common good of all there is. You are also invited to subscribe to my upcoming newsletter, Subtle News. Just let me know if I may put you on my subscription list. To sum it up: I am looking for people who would be interested in: education, distributing of the products, researchers, people who wish to spread the information to their network of friends, people who have knowledge of similar products, which has proven to be of benefit to people and Nature. If you have a web site I invite you to link to my web site and/or copy some of my information so your readers can read about these issues. If you are a journalist, I invite you to write about these issues and you don't have to write a commercial about my products even though you of course are welcome to do so. It is my hope we will reach a level of understanding of Mother Nature, which will propel us into a new civilization, where our reverence for Nature, the Divine Realms and ourselves will result in a world where peace, love, prosperity and dynamic living will be our way of life. (We will get better and more nutritious food as well) kind regards Mikael Lund Nordic Living Water Systems 3430 West 3rd. Avenue Vancouver, BC, V6R 1L5 Canada Tel: +1(604) 733-2824 Fax: +1(604) 733-1824 Call toll free: 1 888 644 7754 http://www.alivewater.net info@alivewater.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Sep 26 12:18:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14034 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA29354; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:12:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bay.csuhayward.edu (bay.csuhayward.edu [134.154.3.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29257 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:11:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu ([134.154.5.50]) by bay.csuhayward.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3C27; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:11:27 -0700 Received: from localhost (jquinter@localhost) by haywire.csuhayward.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24487; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:11:22 -0700 (PDT) From: JOHN QUINTERO To: Michael & Jeannie Glass cc: CSA List Subject: Re: COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT In-Reply-To: <000001bef822$4844d680$558c39cc@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 603 I SUGGEST AN INVESTIGATION "FIRST" INTO THE ASSUMPTION UNDERLYING THE NOTION OF "SUSTAINABLE" AND "DEVELOPMENT." THERE IS AN INCREASING WARINESS AFFOOT FOR THESE AMBIGUOUS TERMS--THEY MAY BE SPECIOUS AND DUPLICITOUS AND DOWNRIGHT SINISTER. MY THESIS RAN ALONG THE LINES OF ALTERNATIVES TO THESE CONCEPTS--CONVIVIALISM AND SUBSISTENCE. LOOK FORWARD TO CONVERSE. JQ On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Michael & Jeannie Glass wrote: > I am working on a MA degree in Organizational Leadership/Development and for my thesis, I am looking into how a CSA farm might serve as a model building a sustainable community/family culture. I would greatly appreciate any stories on how your farm(s) have served as such a model. I am also looking for a farm or two to use as a case study; any volunteers? > > Thank you, > Michael Glass > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Sep 26 12:50:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA14240 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01580; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:49:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01532 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 11:48:49 -0500 (CDT) From: LionKuntz@aol.com Received: from LionKuntz@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id oNZHa12734 (4236); Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5f200f9d.251fa82a@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:47:38 EDT Subject: Re: COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT To: jquinter@haywire.csuhayward.edu, rmglass@whidbey.net CC: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 In a message dated 99-09-26 12:12:07 EDT, jquinter@haywire.csuhayward.edu writes: > On Sun, 5 Sep 1999, Michael & Jeannie Glass wrote: > > > I am working on a MA degree in Organizational Leadership/Development and > for my thesis, I am looking into how a CSA farm might serve as a model > building a sustainable community/family culture. I would greatly appreciate > any stories on how your farm(s) have served as such a model. I am also > looking for a farm or two to use as a case study; any volunteers? > > > > Thank you, > > Michael Glass > > There is website called Intentional Communities, which publishes a book probably in your public library called "Communities Directory". Their website at HTTP://WWW.IC.ORG has several hundred communities you can reach through the internet. Yahoo search engine will pull up a dozen CSA farms, some of which are communities. There is a great resource called INTERGARDEN, whose web URL I have temporarily lost, but it includes Sunsite in the UK as part of their address. Intergarden has links to communities and CSA's. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Sep 26 13:29:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14467 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04236; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04139 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:26:26 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dITUa10034 (4005) for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6da1829b.251fb11e@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:25:50 EDT Subject: Re: COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 605 OK John, Skepticism without offering a positive alternative or reflection is rather common. I do not know Michael Glass. Yet I am encouraged that he is willing to research this concept that is poorly defined. I have read and reflected on this particular subject for a number of years and do not feel anywhere close to understanding it. Should we reject poorly defined concepts? Or should we look to dicover the universal truths associated with a poorly defined concept? I find great comfort in the fact that the truth remains the truth, regardless of what you or I choose to believe. With that said, I am willing to go out on a limb and share my ideas concerning sustainable agriculture and communities. I hope this will be a fruitfull thread for many. The Truth About Wellness Back in 1888, Florence Nightingale wrote, "In truth, wellness is a condition of choice. A choice as much under our control as any condition in which we have placed ourselves." My partner, Suzy Cook and I are registered nurses who genuinely trust the wisdom of the matriarch of our profession. The choices we make in earning our livelihood, where we live, what we eat and drink, the air we breathe, and the exercise in which we participate all contribute to our sense of wellness. Making a difference The mission statement of Ocean Sky Farm is, "To Observe, Apply, and Teach sustainable urban agriculture." We have chosen to teach by example. It has required a lot of trial and error. Then try again. But we have made slow and methodical progress. When we decided we wanted to provide our family with wholesome naturally grown foods we started gardening. As we learned the symbiotic relationships that abound on this planet, we began to feed our neighbors from the abundance. We supplemented our produce by starting a natural foods dry goods co-operative to nurture our community more completely. And now we offer herbal body care products and soaps grown and processed from our organic farm. Each step has required a shift in perception. We have both let go of our "secure" nursing jobs in order to embrace our healing work. We first had to learn to trust our faith in Spirit to provide the opportunities and support that we would require. Only then, did we discover that we had to release the status quo with both hands in order to be fully open to receiving Grace. Furthermore, we learned to ask for what is needed to carry on. Of course there are financial challenges. But the emotional rewards and satisfaction of bringing balance back into our lives and our community are priceless. We live with three well-adjusted school age children. Their ease and social awareness has earned them acceptance with both peers and teachers alike. What more could parents hope for? Observation The key words in our mission statement are sustainable agriculture. There are no clear definitions for sustainable agriculture or community. It is an abstract concept that we are guided to pursue. We won't know it until we achieve it. But the closer we come to sustainability the more symbiotic the relationships become between the parts and the whole. We try to observe the relationships between seasons, placement, and other living beings for every problem. An example of observation, is our chicken tractor. We noticed as the birds scratched through the litter and found slug eggs that they would chortle as they feasted which would bring other chickens to the area scratching for their own chicken caviar. Soon, we would have neither slugs nor slug eggs in the areas where we let the birds run. So we built portable coops to move around the gardens to organically control a common problem. Precepts of sustainability The three precepts of sustainability in agriculture and community are competition, predation and habitat. All life (and business) is balanced by these three precepts. Like it or not, competition is a fact of life where one life form must compete against another for scarce resources. An example of competition in the garden is planting corn close enough together so it can compete for sun light, water and soil nutrients better than the weeds that have viable seeds on the ground next to it. Mulching around the corn and using drip irrigation at the base of each corn stock gives the corn a great advantage over any weed. Predation refers to who consumes what. Even in the soil there is a hierarchy of life forms starting at the microscopic level, which we can not see, and increases in complexity to the earthworms and moles we can see. Each consumes the other in a dance that creates humus and soil tilth. Soils void of these life forms are compacted, airless and hydrophobic. An example of predation in our community is how development consumes farms. It's the nature of our expanding economy. So some of us must learn to farm on smaller lots and grow more food instead of grass and ornamental plants. As we move toward sustainability on our farm we find that we are consuming selected community wastes such as coffee grounds from espresso stands and grass clippings from landscapers to make compost for food production. Habitat is the third precept that completes the circle of life. Habitat is an object that houses and protects a population from the elements and predators. An example of habitat is when we drill holes in a block of cedar. A very beneficial bee called the Mason Bee fills the holes with eggs and pollen then caps the opening with mud. The bee helps us because she is an excellent early spring pollinator. We also grow flowers on the farm to provide habitat for carnivorous insects that eat our pests like flea beetles and aphids. Teaching sustainability In an effort to teach sustainable urban agriculture we offer subscriptions to our harvest through a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) program. Subscribers pay in advance for the next years produce. They then come by the farm once a week to pick up a bag of organic seasonal fruits and vegetables. Organic free-range eggs are also available. We encourage our subscribers to linger and visit with us, to ask gardening questions and to pick their own berries and culinary herbs at the farm. We also offer a limited number of apprenticeships and internships for people who are serious about becoming urban farmers and are willing to make a significant time commitment toward that goal. Compliance with the cause To awaken to the consequences of our actions we must be willing to change our perceptions, assumptions and behaviors. Drive a little less. Eat locally grown food. Buy local products. Stop exposing ourselves to the brainwashing effects of TV and the media. As a society we participate in the destruction of salmon habitat by purchasing wood products that are logged by clear cutting. Then we drive our motor vehicles over and near salmon streams where rain runoff from the roads choke the streams with petroleum products. We consent to act as guinea pigs by purchasing food containing genetically modified organisms (GMO). There is no public outcry for the labeling of such products in the United States because too many of us are willing to trade our future health status for cheap groceries today. The only label that assures there is no GMO in it is the Organic label. Act now Every action contributes to our level of wellness and our level of illness. Only by changing our perceptions, assumptions and behaviors can we create a sustainable agriculture and community. We are free to choose the life and landscape we want. We can no longer afford to externalize the costs of our consumption to the great mother earth. My partner and I believe that we can exercise our free will in order to bring about a necessary increase in personal awareness. This rise in awareness comes incrementally, in the choices we make during our activities of daily living. If you can't commit to a more sustainable livelihood for yourself, then commit to supporting a neighbor or business that has. Open your mind and heart to the workings of Spirit and surely your perceptions, assumptions and behaviors will evolve. Only one truth informs creation. Free will gives us the choice to participate or not. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm August 22, 1999 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Sep 26 21:08:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01375 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 21:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04668; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:03:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.whidbey.com (mail.whidbey.com [204.94.52.241]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04581 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 20:02:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.94.53.28] (b0-53-28.whidbey.com [204.94.53.28]) by mail1.whidbey.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23582 for ; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: Farmer's Markets Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 606 I need information on how farmer's markets in your area are structured. Specifically what fee is charged- is it a flat rate or a percentage of sales? Are farmers charged the same fee as prepared food vendors? How does your management handle the ratio of farmers/brokers/ processed foods/ crafts? Are crafts juried? Is your market strictly organic? If not, how is produce labeled? How is the manager paid? Is there a committee to determine whether vendors are appropriate for your market? I've sold at a local farmer's market for the past 12 years, and watched it grow from 10-15 gardeners with extra stuff to a full-fledged farmer's market with 50 vendors including baked goods and crafts, with local musicians, actors & stilt-walkers providing entertainment too. This market has been sponsored and run by an organization dedicated to sustainable and socially equitable agriculture- Tilth. We've run into rocky times with the recent purchase, by a local benefactor, of the land we have leased for years. Her corporation, while intent on preserving the market, has put out a request for proposals to the entire community, to run the market. I'm a Tilth member and a vendor and have lots of feelings about the market being swept away from Tilth, but I also want to see it thrive - so I've accepted a position on her committee to select the best proposal. I know the community issues fairly well, but I don't have specific info on how other markets are managed. I know there is some friction among vendors over fees, management decisions, traffic flow, signage etc. If any of you can reply, it will help me back up my contribution to the discussion, and I hope result in a good structure for our future market. Currently we each pay 10% of gross sales, to a manager hired by Tilth, who makes almost all the decisions on how the market is run. Most of the fee goes into Tilth bank accounts. (Tilth has been researching purchasing a permanent spot for this market since a year to year lease in a developing area is always risky.) A market committee was disbanded this year, leaving the manager the main decision maker. Paying the correct fee and signage were always an issue with the one broker we had. ( he felt he should only have to pay 10% of his net) Farmers make more than 50% of the gross sales for the market as a whole. We used to insist that crafts be made only from products grown by the vendor(handspun wool, herbal tinctures etc), but that has fallen away in recent years and we have the usual assortment of trinkets now along with some good quality stuff. Two or three of us are certified organic growers, most use organic methods, but some do not. I hope to hear from some of you. The first committee meeting is next Saturday after market. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 03:07:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA07945 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 03:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA28747; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:04:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from saturn.ausaid.gov.au (saturn.ausaid.gov.au [202.6.56.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA28661 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 02:03:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: by saturn.ausaid.gov.au; id RAA07668; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:02:53 +1000 (EST) Received: from degas.ausaid.gov.au(202.6.37.150) by saturn.ausaid.gov.au via smap (V4.2) id xma007618; Mon, 27 Sep 99 17:02:33 +1000 Received: from ccMail by degas.ausaid.gov.au (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 00131026; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 17:00:49 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:59:23 +1100 Message-ID: <00131026.005013@ausaid.gov.au> From: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au (Anton Vikstrom) Subject: urban development To: SCook21809@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 607 Hi list just to let you know my urban agriculture has recieved a shot in the foot. Our household is beeing evicted and our garden having highrise appartments built upon it. all in the name of "development" and a greasy buck. Looks as though im going to spend the spring shovelling soil instead of planting(as i plan to take the yard with me) and will be struggling to feed myself let alone others. Luckily, my prospective CSAers hadnt payed up yet. anyway, its a lesson in land tenure and the transience of landscapes i spose this can be all linked back to the community development thread. However im feeling a bit too worked up and a bit too negative to do so at the moment. on the bright side, theres allways next year. anton *--------------------------------------------------------------------* This email and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the AusAID Help Desk on +61 (0)2 6206 4666. Or email AusAID_Help!!@ausaid.gov.au This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked for the presence of computer viruses before transmission. *--------------------------------------------------------------------* From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 08:00:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09963 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 08:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA12456; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:57:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA12402 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 06:56:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from slippery.excite.com ([199.172.153.106]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990927115610.HAAE26736.kuku@slippery.excite.com>; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:56:10 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Petersons Family" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Farmer's Markets Message-Id: <938433377.18120.924@excite.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 04:56:17 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.98 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 608 You should post this querie at www.gardenweb.com/forums/market-a good market grower's forum. This question was asked a few weeks ago and there were a few answers. I vend at 2 markets. one has been around 25 years and is fairly well organnized. it is organinized by One person who serves as the market master. he charges $3.00 per space per week. he does not have vendor meetings and i think the low price, no meetings and very little advertising has hurt this market a lot. Our sales were off about 70% this year and it looked like customer count was down at least 50%. This market has a nice mix of bakers, crafts, and both fresh homegrown stuff and resale stuff (even though the rules do state that everything must be grown by the seller) . We are the only certified organic farm at the market and there is one other person who is in transition to organic. During August there are usually 45 to 50 vendors. At the moment there are about 10 vendors on average. I believe this is due to the drought hurting a lot of farms and the fact that sales are way down for everyone. We do another market that has been in exisitence for 3 years and we have been there since it's inception. This market has no leadership other than the 2 to 5 vendors that show up weekly. we are supported by the Oxford Ohio visitor and tourism bureau in that they make sure all the licensing is taken care of (we set up in a public square in the center of town). this market has doine poorly since the beginning until the past month when it has taken off. As we are the sole produce vendors at the moment (we have had others but because of slow sales until recently the rarely come back) this market is 100% organic. We have in theory a 6 produce vendors to every craft vendor but reality is that there is usually one ot at best two produce vendors to 3 or more craft vendors. we do jury the crafts at this market and everything is to be homegrown/handmade and this rule so far has been kept. I will say because it is up to us vendors to jury the crafts we have only top notch stuff at this market unlike our other market where they let all sorts of shlock in Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 10:16:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11909 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24444; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:14:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bluestem.prairienet.org (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24343 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:13:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from webserv.dinonet.it ([194.21.93.83]) by bluestem.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09224 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:13:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lbetti ([194.21.93.91]) by webserv.dinonet.it (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA218 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:12:50 +0200 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990927155922.00ad2a40@mail.dinonet.it> X-Sender: lbetti@mail.dinonet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:00:50 +0200 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Gabriele Betti Subject: is there a future for on-line grocery sale(fresh aliments..)? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 609 Hi, I'd like to set up an on-line sale of fresh food, vegetarian recipes... Do you think it might work? Thanks, Gabriele From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 10:22:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11990 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 10:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25017; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:19:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from webserv.dinonet.it ([194.21.93.83]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24354 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 09:13:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lbetti ([194.21.93.91]) by webserv.dinonet.it (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA100 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:13:28 +0200 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990927160701.00b1ca30@mail.dinonet.it> X-Sender: lbetti@mail.dinonet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:07:18 +0200 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Gabriele Betti Subject: is there a future for on-line grocery sale(fresh aliments..)? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 Hi, I'd like to set up an on-line sale of fresh food, vegetarian recipes... Do you think it might work? Thanks, Gabriele From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 15:34:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA18917 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25514; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:31:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lexington.ioa.net (IDENT:root@lexington.ioa.net [208.131.128.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24995 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:25:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ioa.com (ppp482.arden.dialup.ioa.com [208.133.47.173]) by lexington.ioa.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA30055; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:25:05 -0400 Message-ID: <37EFC661.28FC09D1@ioa.com> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 14:33:05 -0500 From: Chris Sawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Petersons Family CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Farmer's Markets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 611 Petersons Family wrote: > I need information on how farmer's markets in your area are structured. > Specifically what fee is charged- is it a flat rate or a percentage of > sales? Are farmers charged the same fee as prepared food vendors? How does > your management handle the ratio of farmers/brokers/ processed foods/ > crafts? Are crafts juried? Is your market strictly organic? If not, how > is produce labeled? How is the manager paid? Is there a committee to > determine whether vendors are appropriate for your market? We here at Jake's Farm are starting a new farmers market in our town. The old one is booming and has no more space, and the town has grown, we feel there is room for another market on the other side of town.....hence we have been one of three vendors who stick it out no matter what. We need vendors to generate traffic, and traffic to get vendors, a real catch 22. We charge vendors $20.00/year....this money is all spent on advertising. The parking lot is donated by a local book distributor, who specializes in garden and natural history books. We have another farm, some potted plant dealers, and some flower people interspersed with the occasional baker or canner. For the most part we want only stuff that is made by the seller, no trinkets, there are plenty of flea markets around for that sort of JUNK.... There are some other markets around neighboring towns, that charge nothing....mainly produce growers selling at all our farmers markets....I think charging 10% is thieving...how could you/....you are not operating a mall....are you furnishing insurance. What is your advertising budget... we sell only on saturdays from 8 to 12....most of our advertising is free classified ads or calendar ads in weekly papers...Word of mouth is the best ad....and is slowly gaining us steady returning customers, but continuity is important, and keeping the same friendly faces...We do not have entertainment (yet) but that seems to work in some markets in Los Angeles I have attended...I am a certified organic farm with 5 acres in production, I price my veggies at the current wholesale price, thereby netting myself an extra 25%, since the co-op where I wholesale keeps 25% for operating expenses, but they are running refrigerated trucks from one end of the state to the other... The best place for a market is free space. I would think in any town, one could find a business with adequate parking that would let a market use their lot, in hopes of attracting more business for their own store, and not rob the farmers of what little profit they might manage to earn....Most famers market customers around here are penny pinchers, looking for the best deal, not necessarily the best food.....a shame I know, but that is how it is.... Chris Sawyer, Jake's Farm Asheville North Carolina, Western part of the state, in the Smoky Mountains.... From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 16:31:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20344 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00846; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:25:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ns2.raex.com [216.196.16.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00750 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 15:24:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-25-122.raex.com [216.196.25.122]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07802 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901bf0925$e0493fc0$7a19c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: farmers markets Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:20:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 612 Here in Northeastern Ohio there are a few markets near us. The one we go to costs $75 per season. Or a person can pay $7 for a single day. The money is spent on advertisment and insurance. The space is donated by a local restaurant. Starts the 1st of June and ends the last weekend in October, Saturdays 9a to 1pm. We try to get a local musical group, or some sort of entertainment each week as it draws more people. No crafts are allowed. Everything has to be a product of the farm, produce, flowers, maple syrup, seedlings, perennial plants. There is a local pub owner/baker who brings bread and cookies and biscotti. Even wool would be allowed, but no craft items. When we get together to talk about it most feel it is important that it be an outlet for farmers and not take on the atmosphere of a craft fair, or worse still, a flea market. Because in those venues fresh quality produce takes a back seat and people begin looking for bargins rather than good farm produce. Another near by market costs only $10 per season but is not independent and is run by the city it is in. There too there are no crafts or items other than farm produce. At another market near here they don't even allow flowers as farm products. Vegetables only. This predjudice against items not grown on the farm may be because there is a famous flea market/farmers market quite near by that operates on Mondays and it is a place where a lot of VERY low quality produce is unloaded from the local wholesale docks. It has hundreds of vendors and a name for cheap stuff. The market we vend at is still in the 10 - 20 vendor stage, the market manager is a volunteer and we have 2 - 4 meetings per year where all the vendors are invited and it is fairly democratic. The market manager is truly a prince of a fellow. He has been supporting the market by seeking out insurance, unbrellas, making signage, you name it, for 7 years almost singlehandedly. He really believes in the farm market idea and wants to see it take off in this area. The space is donated by a local restaurant. I am actually the only vendor who is certified organic. For the most part the customers are pretty disinterested in organics. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Sep 27 19:16:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24148 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA16924; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:16:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16816 for ; Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:15:19 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id uWRHa21483 (4229); Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 19:14:38 EDT Subject: Re: urban development To: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 613 Anton, I regret that the insatiable monster called development is devouring your farm and CSA. There is great honor in being evicted, rather than selling out. Your good works will bare fruit. I pray that you will find a stronger community that values your efforts enough to secure an open space for you to continue. Perhaps you are bring uprooted so you can have a greater impact on more people at a yet undisclosed venue. Look for those opportunities. Good luck, and keep the list informed of your progress. Best regards, Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 28 11:56:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08310 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29679; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:56:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29569 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 10:55:21 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dEPO0zx7gD (4189) for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 11:54:45 EDT Subject: grain To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id KAA29570 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 614 Dear CSA-list members, I spent most of yesterday trying to track down seed sources for spelt. After talking to my local Cooperative Extension agent, the folks at VA Seedsman Assoc. and, finally, the Ohio Crop Improvement center, I found a company called French's in Wakeman , Ohio. They carry 3 varieties of spelt that contain no wheat plasm and are available untreated for organic production. Their web address is: http://www.accnorwalk.com/~frenchs/ I hope this information can be useful to any of you (and save you a lot of time searching by phone/computer) who have been inspired, by recent discussions, to produce grain on a small scale for your CSA members.... Heidi R. Lewis Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 28 16:24:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14518 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA24711; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:24:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24360 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 15:20:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14411 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26493 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:20:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 16:20:28 -0400 (EDT) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Good Earth CSA, Westboro, Mass. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 A friend told me he is a member of this CSA. Has anyone heard of it; does anyone know the URL for their website? Tnx, LL Lawrence F. London, Jr. -+|+- Venaura Farm london@metalab.unc.edu lflondon@worldnet.att.net http://metalab.unc.edu/london, /permaculture, /ecolandtech EcoLandTech -+|+- InterGarden -+|+- Permaculture From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Sep 28 19:13:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18473 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA10716; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:10:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.mich.com (IDENT:root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10626 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:10:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mich.com (pm346-02.dialip.mich.net [207.75.137.43]) by server1.mich.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA03090 for ; Tue, 28 Sep 1999 18:55:02 -0400 Message-ID: <37F14B0C.432863F4@mich.com> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1999 19:11:08 -0400 From: Mark X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Farm Labor Sources Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 616 General Mail, We have found that as we are in the process of obtaining our "non-profit" status, we requested to be added to the Community Services list that is maintained by our local court system. Now, the people who commit a little social boo-boo in our area and need to fulfill a court ordered Community Service sentence can find us on the list. We seem to have some appeal, as in the last few months we have helped four young men fulfill their sentences. And one of them continues to come and be with us- even though his commitment to the courts is satisfied! Great program and a real benefit to our community. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 07:14:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA27264 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 07:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA26327; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA26242 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 06:13:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from amber.excite.com ([198.3.99.12]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19990929111305.TLKA1457.fortune@amber.excite.com> for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 04:13:05 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: CSA delivering to Detroit Area Message-Id: <938603585.25662.906@excite.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 04:13:05 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.24 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 617 I am looking for info about any CSA deliveing to the Detroit/ Grosse Pointe Woods area. I am trying to get my sainted mother interested in eating fresh organic food and since she won't drive to a farm market mybe if the food came to her she might try it. At this point in our conversation she says there are no CSA in the area ,much less any that would deliver near her home. I she correct about this? Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 09:46:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA29573 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07417; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:46:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07307 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:45:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 08:45:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909291345.IAA07307@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 14857 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 13:45:37 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-41.iquest.net (209.43.47.41) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 13:45:37 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Mark From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Farm Labor Sources Cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 618 I have tapped into this resource via the non-profit I am director of (Hoosier Organic Marketing Education aka HOME) as well. Usually these people end up picking up trash off roadways. Every one I have dealt with except one has been a blessing and really enjoyed the ability to learn a skill. But I wonder how your CSA is considered a non-profit. Would love to see your mission statement and bylaws if you would share them. Having obtained 501(c)3 status for HOME, perhaps I could also be of help to you. I am elated to see others doing this! Thanks! At 07:11 PM 9/28/99 -0400, Mark wrote: >General Mail, >We have found that as we are in the process of obtaining our >"non-profit" status, we requested to be added to the Community Services >list that is maintained by our local court system. >Now, the people who commit a little social boo-boo in our area and need >to fulfill a court ordered Community Service sentence can find us on the >list. We seem to have some appeal, as in the last few months we have >helped four young men fulfill their sentences. And one of them continues >to come and be with us- even though his commitment to the courts is >satisfied! >Great program and a real benefit to our community. > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 11:27:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01772 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17315; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:27:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA17213 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:26:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.66.34.138] by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id fa321157 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:20:20 -0600 Message-ID: <37F23099.D2A184DE@gilanet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:30:38 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: Farm Labor Sources References: <199909291345.IAA07307@firefly.prairienet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 619 We are currently looking at taking our CSA non profit also, and would love to see info from others who've done it. As I understand it, CSA itself is NOT an activity that would qualify for 501(c)3 status. But when viewed as a whole, the farm with it's educational work could qualify, and then continue to operate the CSA and other agricultural businesses for the primary purpose of providing students and apprentices with a real life farm experience as a part of our educational programs. I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. And if any of you have actually put your farms into non-profit status, I'd love to see your by laws and such to give us some helpful role models as we seek to make this change. Thanks! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 13:16:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04646 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28896; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:16:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28777 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:15:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 14989 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 17:15:06 -0000 Received: from i48-15-15.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.5.143) (216.26.5.143) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 17:15:06 -0000 Message-ID: <37F2436F.274F@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 09:50:56 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Petersons Family CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Farmer's Markets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 620 I have started a farmers' market and sold my own produce at a number of farmers' markets. Most people are drawn to farmers' markets to buy food directly from those who produce it. Indeed, we present the markets just that way - meet face to face with those who grow your food. I strongly object to non-agriculture items and items not produced by the vendors at "farmers' markets". It has to do with abusing language. I have no problem with markets that have vendors who sell what they grow mixed with vendors who buy what they sell and yet other vendorss who make their products. I simply object to calling such a markjet a farmers' market. They are not farmers! This may sound trivial to all of you, but how do organic growers feel about those who use just a little pesticide? Or processors who use mostly organic fruits in their artificailly sweetened jam? When does "organic" stop meaning organic and simply become another marketing term? When does "farmers' market" stop meaning farmers and simply become another marketing term? Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 14:31:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06508 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06479; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:31:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06365 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 13:30:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 15379 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 18:30:26 -0000 Received: from i48-15-26.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.5.154) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 18:30:26 -0000 Message-ID: <005101bf0aa8$62309dc0$f72afea9@john> From: "John Madsen" To: Subject: any Ideas on getting a good used rototiller in western oregon? Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 11:28:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004E_01BF0A6D.B4481880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 621 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BF0A6D.B4481880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no luck in finding one. ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BF0A6D.B4481880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no = luck in=20 finding one.
    ------=_NextPart_000_004E_01BF0A6D.B4481880-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 15:05:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07520 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09693; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:05:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09627 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:05:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:05:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909291905.OAA09627@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 10811 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 19:05:25 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as001-215.iquest.net (209.43.48.215) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 19:05:25 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "John Madsen" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: any Ideas on getting a good used rototiller in western oregon? Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 622 WHere are you located? I know of a barely used (<100hours) Troybilt 8 hp that is for sale here in Indiana. At 11:28 AM 9/29/99 -0700, John Madsen wrote: >looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no luck in finding one. > > > > > > > >
    looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no luck in >finding one.
    > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 15:11:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07654 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10151; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:10:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA10085 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909291910.OAA10085@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 16459 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 19:10:28 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as001-215.iquest.net (209.43.48.215) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 19:10:28 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "John Madsen" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: any Ideas on getting a good used rototiller in western oregon? Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 623 Oops--didn't see the OR part... SOrry. But maybe somebody else would be interested. The people that have the tiller also have 60 acres of certified land, a house, barn, garage, chicken house and WONDERFUL shed and root cellar (this root cellar is incredible) for sale as well. ~$170K. Includes the tractor and some other equipment. Location just outside of Greencastle IN, not far from DePauw Univ. Inquiries should go to vcarr@ccrtc.com At 11:28 AM 9/29/99 -0700, John Madsen wrote: >looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no luck in finding one. > > > > > > > >
    looking for a 8+ hp used tiller and have no luck in >finding one.
    > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 15:55:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA08485 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 15:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14581; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:55:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA14395 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:53:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 14:53:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199909291953.OAA14395@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 4138 invoked from network); 29 Sep 1999 19:53:49 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as001-215.iquest.net (209.43.48.215) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Sep 1999 19:53:49 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: steffo@gilanet.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Farm Labor Sources Cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 624 I see the problem in that the property of a nonprofit has to go to another nonprofit upon dissolution. SO the best that could happen is that the farm may have a MOU with a nonprofit entity as an educational activities site and acquire community service for purposes that actually meet the educational mission rather than just meeting labor needs. You have to be careful to make sure the activities of the nonprofit are met with however you use the community service or getting status will be impossible. I suggest that the farm NOT be the nonprofit but that a nonprofit corporation be created that uses the farm as such a site. BUT, a nonprofit cannot be kept in the same hands forever so keep in mind that a change in directors could alter the activities' location. There are 2 kinds of nonprofits--membership and non-membership. Think about how you want to go on that too. I can talk at length about this but I have limited time to type about it. HOME does consultation work to assist others in creating non-profits as well as contractual services for writing bylaws and applying for status. Having done this myself I can tell you it is a lot of work, but is worthwhile and having some experienced help can make a lot of difference. I can make our bylaws available upon request to individuals but I am not really interested in sending all of our stuff out onto public mailing lists--I'd have to ask my board before I could do that and we don't have a meeting coming up soon. There are state nonprofit laws too that you need to know. It is a complicated procedure with many benefits and many responsibilities. If you want to talk to me, pick my brain at 317-539-4317. Keep trying if I am not there. (I don't have funds to call people for this kind of thing and it can be a lengthy conversation) I'm probably just out in the barn or outside celebrating the first real rain we have had since May. At 09:30 AM 9/29/99 -0600, Stef Fuegi wrote: >We are currently looking at taking our CSA non profit also, and would >love to see info from others who've done it. As I understand it, CSA >itself is NOT an activity that would qualify for 501(c)3 status. But >when viewed as a whole, the farm with it's educational work could >qualify, and then continue to operate the CSA and other agricultural >businesses for the primary purpose of providing students and apprentices >with a real life farm experience as a part of our educational programs. > >I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. And if any of you have >actually put your farms into non-profit status, I'd love to see your by >laws and such to give us some helpful role models as we seek to make >this change. > >Thanks! > >Stef Fuegi >Bear Creek Farms >Gila, NM > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Sep 29 22:42:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18255 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18744; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:42:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp2.supernet.com (IDENT:qmailr@smtp2.desupernet.net [204.249.184.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA18417 for ; Wed, 29 Sep 1999 21:37:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 6208 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1999 02:38:23 -0000 Received: from 188-138.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.138) by smtp2.supernet.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 1999 02:38:23 -0000 Message-ID: <37F2CDA9.47866D8A@mail.cvn.net> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 22:40:43 -0400 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: grain References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 625 For those in Franklin County PA spelt can be bought through Franklin feed store in Chambersburg HowdiHeidi@aol.com wrote: > Dear CSA-list members, > I spent most of yesterday trying to track down seed sources for spelt. After > talking to my local Cooperative Extension agent, the folks at VA Seedsman > Assoc. and, finally, the Ohio Crop Improvement center, I found a company > called French's in Wakeman , Ohio. They carry 3 varieties of spelt that > contain no wheat plasm and are available untreated for organic production. > Their web address is: > http://www.accnorwalk.com/~frenchs/ > I hope this information can be useful to any of you (and save you a lot of > time searching by phone/computer) who have been inspired, by recent > discussions, to produce grain on a small scale for your CSA members.... > > Heidi R. Lewis > Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition > Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 30 12:13:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01618 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 12:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA13621; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:13:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13418 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 11:10:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.114.172.235] (dhcp-172-36.UCSC.EDU [128.114.172.235]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.9.3/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id JAA01477 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:10:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: csafarm@cats-po-1.ucsc.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:18:43 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: David Oretsky Subject: CSA Farmers Looking For Land Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 626 Dear World, We are experienced organic farmers looking for opportunity/land/community to start CSA project. Currently we run the CSA at the University of California Santa Cruz Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems, other wise known as the UCSC Farm and Garden. If you or anyone you know has information please let us know. Thank you. David Oretsky and Nancy Vail C/O CASFS, UCSC 1156 High St. Santa Cruz, CA 95064 tel: (831)459-3336 fax: (831)459-2799 Nancy Vail and David Oretsky CSA Coordinators Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems University of California at Santa Cruz Santa Cruz, CA 95064 (408)459-3336 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 30 18:17:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08418 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17146; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:13:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16997 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:11:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Rdungan100@aol.com Received: from Rdungan100@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dBHNLdNbC_ (3860) for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <22e351f3.252539f9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:11:05 EDT Subject: Are organic foods more healthy? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 627 MSN had an interesting article titled "Are organic foods more healthy?" you can find it at the MSN health web site. Below is url for article http://www.msnbc.com/news/create_p1.asp?SET=www.msnbc.com/news/316999.asp&bt=w ebmd&btu=javascript:history.back() From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Sep 30 21:36:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10770 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 21:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA06173; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:34:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.whidbey.com (mail.whidbey.com [204.94.52.241]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05885 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 20:31:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.94.52.175] (b5-52-175.whidbey.com [204.94.52.175]) by mail1.whidbey.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28420 for ; Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Petersons Family Subject: Farmer's Markets Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 Thanks for all the responses ( and good references to other sites). I know how you'all feel about fees and trinkets now. I appreciate the input. I too have been feeling exploited by the 10% fee, and have yearly proposed a simple booth fee, or at least a cut back to 5% for those of us providing the farmer in the Farmer's Market. I've been voted down, but now I think I had more cohorts than was obvious, since a furor has erupted over the possibility of our market being managed by someone else. I'll be taking your input along on Saturday, and I hope we can make some good decisions for our community market. Our CSA season ended last week, but we'll keep on with the salad greens for as long as possible, and our market lasts until Halloween. We had an early killing frost on 9/27. I'm feeling proud of the basil patch in my tunnel greenhouse; most ofthe rest is blackened. Surprizing the cinnamon basil seems to have endured the frost with little damage. Has anyone else had experience with frost durability of basil varieties? I had large leaf Italian, two lemon basils, lime , red rueben, and genovese perfume basil in addition to the Cinnamon. They all capitulated to the frost, as did the cucumbers. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 3 19:27:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21919 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28255; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:27:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bay.csuhayward.edu (bay.csuhayward.edu [134.154.3.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28068 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:24:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu ([134.154.5.50]) by bay.csuhayward.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6E5C; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:24:49 -0700 Received: from localhost (jquinter@localhost) by haywire.csuhayward.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18086; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:24:45 -0700 (PDT) From: JOHN QUINTERO To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT In-Reply-To: <6da1829b.251fb11e@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 Please send me your snail mail address--I found this so provocative I wrote a "real" letter and wish to continue the conversation. Look forward to hearing from you. John On Sun, 26 Sep 1999 SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > OK John, > Skepticism without offering a positive alternative or reflection is > rather common. I do not know Michael Glass. Yet I am encouraged that he is > willing to research this concept that is poorly defined. I have read and > reflected on this particular subject for a number of years and do not feel > anywhere close to understanding it. Should we reject poorly defined > concepts? Or should we look to dicover the universal truths associated with > a poorly defined concept? I find great comfort in the fact that the truth > remains the truth, regardless of what you or I choose to believe. > With that said, I am willing to go out on a limb and share my ideas > concerning sustainable agriculture and communities. I hope this will be a > fruitfull thread for many. > The Truth About Wellness > Back in 1888, Florence Nightingale wrote, "In truth, wellness is a > condition of choice. A choice as much under our control as any condition in > which we have placed ourselves." My partner, Suzy Cook and I are registered > nurses who genuinely trust the wisdom of the matriarch of our profession. > The choices we make in earning our livelihood, where we live, what we eat and > drink, the air we breathe, and the exercise in which we participate all > contribute to our sense of wellness. > Making a difference > The mission statement of Ocean Sky Farm is, "To Observe, Apply, and > Teach sustainable urban agriculture." We have chosen to teach by example. > It has required a lot of trial and error. Then try again. But we have made > slow and methodical progress. When we decided we wanted to provide our > family with wholesome naturally grown foods we started gardening. As we > learned the symbiotic relationships that abound on this planet, we began to > feed our neighbors from the abundance. We supplemented our produce by > starting a natural foods dry goods co-operative to nurture our community more > completely. And now we offer herbal body care products and soaps grown and > processed from our organic farm. > Each step has required a shift in perception. We have both let go of our > "secure" nursing jobs in order to embrace our healing work. We first had to > learn to trust our faith in Spirit to provide the opportunities and support > that we would require. Only then, did we discover that we had to release the > status quo with both hands in order to be fully open to receiving Grace. > Furthermore, we learned to ask for what is needed to carry on. Of course > there are financial challenges. But the emotional rewards and satisfaction > of bringing balance back into our lives and our community are priceless. We > live with three well-adjusted school age children. Their ease and social > awareness has earned them acceptance with both peers and teachers alike. > What more could parents hope for? > Observation > The key words in our mission statement are sustainable agriculture. > There are no clear definitions for sustainable agriculture or community. It > is an abstract concept that we are guided to pursue. We won't know it until > we achieve it. But the closer we come to sustainability the more symbiotic > the relationships become between the parts and the whole. > We try to observe the relationships between seasons, placement, and other > living beings for every problem. An example of observation, is our chicken > tractor. We noticed as the birds scratched through the litter and found slug > eggs that they would chortle as they feasted which would bring other chickens > to the area scratching for their own chicken caviar. Soon, we would have > neither slugs nor slug eggs in the areas where we let the birds run. So we > built portable coops to move around the gardens to organically control a > common problem. > Precepts of sustainability > The three precepts of sustainability in agriculture and community are > competition, predation and habitat. All life (and business) is balanced by > these three precepts. Like it or not, competition is a fact of life where > one life form must compete against another for scarce resources. An example > of competition in the garden is planting corn close enough together so it can > compete for sun light, water and soil nutrients better than the weeds that > have viable seeds on the ground next to it. Mulching around the corn and > using drip irrigation at the base of each corn stock gives the corn a great > advantage over any weed. > Predation refers to who consumes what. Even in the soil there is a > hierarchy of life forms starting at the microscopic level, which we can not > see, and increases in complexity to the earthworms and moles we can see. > Each consumes the other in a dance that creates humus and soil tilth. Soils > void of these life forms are compacted, airless and hydrophobic. An example > of predation in our community is how development consumes farms. It's the > nature of our expanding economy. So some of us must learn to farm on smaller > lots and grow more food instead of grass and ornamental plants. As we move > toward sustainability on our farm we find that we are consuming selected > community wastes such as coffee grounds from espresso stands and grass > clippings from landscapers to make compost for food production. > Habitat is the third precept that completes the circle of life. > Habitat is an object that houses and protects a population from the elements > and predators. An example of habitat is when we drill holes in a block of > cedar. A very beneficial bee called the Mason Bee fills the holes with eggs > and pollen then caps the opening with mud. The bee helps us because she is > an excellent early spring pollinator. We also grow flowers on the farm to > provide habitat for carnivorous insects that eat our pests like flea beetles > and aphids. > Teaching sustainability > In an effort to teach sustainable urban agriculture we offer > subscriptions to our harvest through a Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) > program. Subscribers pay in advance for the next years produce. They then > come by the farm once a week to pick up a bag of organic seasonal fruits and > vegetables. Organic free-range eggs are also available. We encourage our > subscribers to linger and visit with us, to ask gardening questions and to > pick their own berries and culinary herbs at the farm. We also offer a > limited number of apprenticeships and internships for people who are serious > about becoming urban farmers and are willing to make a significant time > commitment toward that goal. > Compliance with the cause > To awaken to the consequences of our actions we must be willing to > change our perceptions, assumptions and behaviors. Drive a little less. Eat > locally grown food. Buy local products. Stop exposing ourselves to the > brainwashing effects of TV and the media. As a society we participate in the > destruction of salmon habitat by purchasing wood products that are logged by > clear cutting. Then we drive our motor vehicles over and near salmon streams > where rain runoff from the roads choke the streams with petroleum products. > We consent to act as guinea pigs by purchasing food containing genetically > modified organisms (GMO). There is no public outcry for the labeling of such > products in the United States because too many of us are willing to trade our > future health status for cheap groceries today. The only label that assures > there is no GMO in it is the Organic label. > Act now > Every action contributes to our level of wellness and our level of > illness. Only by changing our perceptions, assumptions and behaviors can we > create a sustainable agriculture and community. We are free to choose the > life and landscape we want. We can no longer afford to externalize the costs > of our consumption to the great mother earth. > My partner and I believe that we can exercise our free will in order to > bring about a necessary increase in personal awareness. This rise in > awareness comes incrementally, in the choices we make during our activities > of daily living. If you can't commit to a more sustainable livelihood for > yourself, then commit to supporting a neighbor or business that has. Open > your mind and heart to the workings of Spirit and surely your perceptions, > assumptions and behaviors will evolve. Only one truth informs creation. > Free will gives us the choice to participate or not. > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm > August 22, 1999 > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 3 19:29:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21938 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28488; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:29:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bay.csuhayward.edu (bay.csuhayward.edu [134.154.3.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28417 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:29:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu ([134.154.5.50]) by bay.csuhayward.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6ED4; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:29:11 -0700 Received: from localhost (jquinter@localhost) by haywire.csuhayward.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18255; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:28:50 -0700 (PDT) From: JOHN QUINTERO To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: Anton_Vikstrom@ausaid.gov.au, csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: urban development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 630 Art Biggert Please send me your snail mail address at big sky farms. I found your response very instructive and I wrote a real letter. Look forward to hearing from you. The monster development wishes to sustain itself-- John Quintero On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > Anton, > I regret that the insatiable monster called development is devouring > your farm and CSA. There is great honor in being evicted, rather than > selling out. Your good works will bare fruit. I pray that you will find a > stronger community that values your efforts enough to secure an open space > for you to continue. Perhaps you are bring uprooted so you can have a > greater impact on more people at a yet undisclosed venue. Look for those > opportunities. Good luck, and keep the list informed of your progress. > Best regards, > Art > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 3 19:36:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21974 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 19:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA28989; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:36:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bay.csuhayward.edu (bay.csuhayward.edu [134.154.3.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA28917 for ; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:36:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu ([134.154.5.50]) by bay.csuhayward.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6F8F; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:36:07 -0700 Received: from localhost (jquinter@localhost) by haywire.csuhayward.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18573; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:36:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:36:06 -0700 (PDT) From: JOHN QUINTERO To: David Oretsky cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA Farmers Looking For Land In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 631 Hi, I'm in the process of compiling a land bank data base in the Bay area counties and would like to help you and join you. My phone is 510-727-9924 Mail to 2037 "E" Street Hayward CA 94541 On Thu, 30 Sep 1999, David Oretsky wrote: > Dear World, > > We are experienced organic farmers looking for opportunity/land/community > to start CSA project. Currently we run the CSA at the University of > California Santa Cruz Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems, > other wise known as the UCSC Farm and Garden. If you or anyone you know has > information please let us know. Thank you. > > David Oretsky and Nancy Vail > C/O CASFS, UCSC > 1156 High St. > Santa Cruz, CA 95064 > > tel: (831)459-3336 > fax: (831)459-2799 > > Nancy Vail and David Oretsky > CSA Coordinators > Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems > University of California at Santa Cruz > Santa Cruz, CA 95064 > (408)459-3336 > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 5 13:31:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA26420 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11563; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:30:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA11401 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:29:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 12:29:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910051729.MAA11401@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 21083 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 17:29:02 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as001-139.iquest.net (209.43.48.139) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 17:29:02 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Land wanted Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 632 >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net >From: Russdoit@aol.com >Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:17:31 EDT >Subject: Land wanted >To: cvof@iquest.net > >Organic certified land south of Kansas City, within one hour, preferably in >Kansas. > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 6 17:31:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25960 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04282; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:30:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cats.ucsc.edu (rumpleteazer.UCSC.EDU [128.114.129.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04043 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 16:28:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.114.172.187] (dhcp-172-52.UCSC.EDU [128.114.172.187]) by cats.ucsc.edu (8.9.3/8.8.4.cats-athena) with ESMTP id OAA09087 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 14:33:56 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Anne-Marie Napoli Subject: CSA Job Announcement Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 633 CSA Manager/Assistant Field Manager Position with Farm & Garden Apprenticeship University of California, Santa Cruz Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems Below is a job description for a CSA Manager/Assistant Field Manager at the 25-acre teaching farm and Apprenticeship Program which are part of the UCSC Center for Agroecology and Sustainable Food Systems (CASFS). Please pass this information on to eligible applicants you may know and/or post it where appropriate. The position will involve managing of organic field production, instructing apprentices in the CASFS Apprenticeship Program, and managing the Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) direct-marketing program, among other things. The closing date for applications is October 15, and we hope to fill the job by January 1. The starting salary for this full-time position is $28,152-$30,000/year with full benefits. Please see the job description for more details. To receive a University application form, contact (831) 459-2011 or www.ucsc.edu. For more information about the Apprenticeship and the Center for Agroecology, call (831) 459-3240, or look us up on the web at http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs. If you would like to speak with Ann Lindsey directly about the position, please call (831) 459-2321 or email alindsey@cats.ucsc.edu. CSA COORDINATOR/ASSISTANT FIELD MANAGER COMMUNITY SUPPORTED AGRICULTURE (CSA) JOB #99-08-23 FULL-TIME/CAREER STARTING SALARY RANGE: $2346-$2500/month SUMMARY OF DUTIES: Under the general supervision of CASFS Farm Manager, the incumbent will coordinate the Community Supported Agriculture (CSA) project, assist with field production, and supervise and instruct apprentice crews in the CASFS Farm field and orchards. SPECIFIC RESPONSIBILITIES INCLUDE: Planning: assist with production plans for both CSA and Market Cart crops for each season; facilitate seed orders, contribute to crop planning and sowing list creation; work with Garden Managers to coordinate crop production from gardens; facilitate meetings to determine start/end dates, member numbers, share sizes, share prices, box value, etc.; attend staff meetings, planning meetings, and other committee meetings as requested. Administration and Outreach: coordinate member recruitment; coordinate the revision and production of member brochure and newsletter, pledge forms, and flyers; update and oversee payment administration and record-keeping; develop and conduct member surveys; coordinate logistics of distribution area, including parking, greeters, check-off list; recruit and organize core group members; assist with the organization of public events. Production: perform tractor work in fields and orchards; perform or oversee transplanting and direct-sowing; work with Propagation Manager to coordinate field sowings in the greenhouse; perform or oversee field irrigation, weeding, and fertilizing; assist with making field compost; prune orchards and assist with orchard management; oversee management member garden; assist with general site upkeep around buildings and landscaped areas. Crew Supervision and Instruction: coordinate apprentice work crews in all aspects of field production harvesting and direct-marketing; supervise harvest coordinators and facilitate coordination between sites; meet with work crews on a daily basis to give overview of work plan; provide orientation to new work tasks and instruction on more advanced skills; orient apprentices to appropriate and safe tool use; supervise interns, volunteers, and work study students; instruct apprentices in all aspects of management, including production, administration, and outreach; provide in-field training for apprentices in crop production including field irrigation, bed preparation, planting, fertility, pest and pathogen management, and cultivation techniques; instruct apprentices in methods of harvesting and post-harvest handling for field crops. QUALIFICATIONS INCLUDE (with or without accommodation): experience with organic row crop and fruit tree production, including harvesting and post-harvest handling of a wide variety of crops; experience with direct market sales and record-keeping; experience running a Community Supported Agriculture project including outreach, administration, and production; experience in tractor operation sufficient to perform basic operations with minimal supervision; organizational and time management skills sufficient to independently set priorities, coordinate and complete a number of competing assignments; propagation experience and skills sufficient to make soil mixes for various propagation needs, sow a wide variety of seed types and assess seedling fertilization needs; thorough understanding of organic practices necessary to maintain CCOF certification. The abilities to: set up, effectively operate, and maintain a variety of irrigation systems as well as skillfully irrigate a wide variety of crops; coordinate and teach others in a garden and/or field setting; deliver information and instruction in a clear and thorough manner, effectively and tactfully interact with diverse groups of people and work in a team situation; demonstrate strong interpersonal skills. Preferred Qualifications: training or educational background in basic agronomy or horticulture. FINAL FILING DATE 10/15/99 STARTING DATE: Current Opening This position is eligible for full benefits Application materials must reflect a job number (#99-08-23) and must be received in the Staff Human Resources Office by 5 PM on October 15, 1999. For applications, see www.ucsc.edu, call (831) 459-2011, or write Staff Human Resources, 102 Communications Building, Santa Cruz, CA 95064. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 6 19:30:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27791 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA15447; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:30:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA15275 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 18:29:08 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dSEBa22485 (4190) for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.4ee09c3e.252d3521@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:28:33 EDT Subject: CSA in Alexandria Virginia? To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id SAA15276 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 634 I've had an inquiry about CSAs located in or delivering to the Alexandria, Virginia area? There are none listed on the rfarm directory within less than about an hour's commute, as far as I can tell....Is anyone out there? Thanks! Heidi R. Lewis Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition of the greater Fredericksburg area From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 01:32:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03011 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA16273; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA16198 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:31:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.18] (pm3shep4-163-165.intrepid.net [209.190.163.165]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA18201; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:31:14 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.4ee09c3e.252d3521@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:37:54 -0400 To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: CSA in Alexandria Virginia? Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id AAA16199 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 635 >I've had an inquiry about CSAs located in or delivering to the Alexandria, >Virginia area? There are none listed on the rfarm directory within less than >about an hour's commute, as far as I can tell....Is anyone out there? >Thanks! >Heidi R. Lewis >Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition >of the greater Fredericksburg area The Claymont Farm CSA - - a biodynamic farm - - will be providing CSA to Alexandria in the coming season. Accoteek Foundation also makes CSA available to that area. Allan Balliett Claymont Farm CSA BIODYNAMICS Now! temp mailing address: 207 W. High Street POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 Voice Mail: (304) 724-6763 FAX Forwarding (815) 550-6067 =========================================================================== BD NOW!, the International Biodynamic Agriculture Discussion Forum, dedicated to restoring the earth while producing healthy, high-value, food that promotes human development. Don't miss the 1999 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Conference this October 1-3 at Claymont Court, near the Baltimore-Washington Megalopolis. For more information: http://www.igg.com/bdnow Archives to BD Now! are located at: http://csf.colorado.edu/biodynamics/ To Subscribe to BD NOW!, the BD list server, send a msg to listproc@envirolink.org In the body of the message put (do not include the "<>:s!): subscribe bdnow If you have any questions, contact the list master at bdnow@igg.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 09:35:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06834 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12878; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:35:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web801.mail.yahoo.com (web801.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.61]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA12691 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:33:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19991007133846.15019.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.121] by web801.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:38:46 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 06:38:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Community Farm newsletter To: CSAlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 636 If it's been mentioned before, I apologize for bringing it up again. I heard that there's a newsletter for CSA farmers called (something like) "Community Farm: A Voice for CSA" Does anyone know anything about this newsletter? What's your opinion of it? Thanks! Kirsten Saylor Sustainable Agriculture Network Beltsville, MD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 09:46:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06973 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA14557; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:45:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14454 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:45:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.229] [209.8.149.217] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5668EE60140; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:51:34 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.4ee09c3e.252d3521@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:45:15 -0400 To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: CSA in Alexandria Virginia? Cc: CSA list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id IAA14455 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 There is a list of DC area CSA's at Goodfood DC http://www.1earth.com/goodfooddc/growers/ >I've had an inquiry about CSAs located in or delivering to the Alexandria, >Virginia area? There are none listed on the rfarm directory within less than >about an hour's commute, as far as I can tell....Is anyone out there? >Thanks! >Heidi R. Lewis >Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition >of the greater Fredericksburg area From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 11:20:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08734 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA25174; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:20:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from msue.msue.msu.edu (msue.msue.msu.edu [35.8.2.18]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25061 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:19:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smalley (smalley3.user.msu.edu [35.10.78.136]) by msue.msue.msu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA66189; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:19:43 -0400 Message-Id: <199910071519.LAA66189@msue.msue.msu.edu> X-Sender: smalley@msue.msu.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:18:28 -0400 To: Kirsten Saylor From: Susan Smalley Subject: Re: Community Farm newsletter Cc: CSAlist In-Reply-To: <19991007133846.15019.rocketmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 638 Hi Kirsten & CSA-L The Community Farm: A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture is a quarterly newsletter published by Jo Meller and Jim Sluyter, who operate Five Springs Farm, a CSA in northwestern Michigan. Subscriptions are $20. Send your requests to 3480 Potter Road, Bear Lake, MI 49614. You may also contact Jo and Jim at fsfarm@mufn.org. You can learn more about Five Springs Farm and about other lower midwest CSA's by getting a copy of The Many Faces of Community Supported Agriculture (CSA): A Guide to Community Supported Agriculture in Indiana, Michigan and Ohio. This 103 page book was edited and designed by Laura DeLind, published this year by the Michigan Organic Food and Farm Alliance, and supported by a North Central SARE Professional Development Program grant. Extension offices in the three target states have all received reference copies. Additional copies are avaliable for $10 each. Send your check to MOFFA, c/o Laura DeLind, 302 Baker Hall, East Lansing, MI 48824. I hope this information helps. At 06:38 AM 10/7/1999 -0700, Kirsten Saylor wrote: >If it's been mentioned before, I apologize for bringing it up again. > >I heard that there's a newsletter for CSA farmers called (something like) "Community >Farm: A Voice for CSA" > >Does anyone know anything about this newsletter? What's your opinion of it? > >Thanks! > >Kirsten Saylor >Sustainable Agriculture Network >Beltsville, MD Susan B. Smalley Extension Specialist Sustainable Food & Farming Systems smalley@msue.msu.edu A-270 Plant & Soil Sciences Building 517 432 0049 voice East Lansing, MI 48824-1325 517 353 3834 fax From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 12:06:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09766 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00122; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:06:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from web805.mail.yahoo.com (web805.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00005 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:05:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19991007161110.12511.rocketmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.121] by web805.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:11:10 PDT Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:11:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Kirsten Saylor To: CSAlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 Another question for everyone on the list. The USDA has been talking with Parade Magazine which is working on a feature article about CSAs (Nov issue will be about food trends). Parade is strongly asking for a "one-stop shop" source for people to connect with a CSA in their area. There really is no ONE place right now, although Steve Moore with Wilson College and the Robyn van En Center is working on one. With a readership of around 84 million people, the article could be a great way to highlight CSAs and many of the problems with conventional food system. Without the one-stop-shop, there's a strong feeling that the article wouldn't be published. SAN/SARE in conjunction with the CSA Center (Moore) could be the one-stop-shop for interim, and probably have the CSA center take it on long term. My questions/issues that I would like to hear from people (and quickly, there's a near deadline on this) are: What are your feelings on having a national database? Would you want to be on it? What information would you not want to have posted? Consider: privacy issues, "updatability", usefulness of a database to you in recruiting new members... Would this be of benefit to the CSA MOVEMENT? What of the organizations that already maintain regional directories? Would this be a project that could recognize their work and benefit them as well? I welcome any other thoughts you have on the matter. My personal thoughts have been that when ONE organization has a complete listing, then it takes away from the grassroots of the movement and colors it as mainstream. It also seems that a national "database" of CSA farms (if it is even feasible) be anti-thetical to the movement itself (people supporting an alternative food system, one that is not monolithic). I welcome your thoughts! Lastly, I am assuming that nearly everyone on this list knows of the SARE program. This is really unfair of me, and I hope that if you are not familiar with SARE and SAN (the information arm of SARE) that you will take a look at our webpage or please contact me directly for more information. I would be more than happy to answer any questions you have about SAN and SARE. Kirsten Saylor Sustainable Agriculture Network C/O AFSIC, National Agricultural Library 10301 Baltimore Ave, room 304 Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 301/504-6173 ksaylor@nal.usda.gov www.sare.org ===== Kirsten Saylor 1708 N. Troy St. #805 Arlington, VA 22201 703/465-9647 God is in the details -- attributed to Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 12:30:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10323 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02721; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:30:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02486 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:28:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 165.227.130.72 (sa-165-227-130-72.cruzio.com [165.227.130.72]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id JAA26801; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FC6996.3FAD@mariquita.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:36:22 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirsten Saylor CC: CSA list Subject: another great newsletter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 640 Hello, We enjoy and USE this newsletter: Growing for Market: 1-800-307-8949. Their email address is: growing4market@earthlink.net Julia Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 13:02:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11025 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06109; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:02:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06022 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:01:23 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:01:23 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910071701.MAA06022@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 12154 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 17:01:16 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-126.iquest.net (209.43.53.126) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 17:01:16 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Kirsten Saylor From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Cc: CSAlist Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 I do not have a problem with a one-stop-shop idea. CSA's who choose not to be included could just stay out and do their own word-of-mouth thing. Having been in the organic and CSA community for a LONG time, I have seen and felt the problems arising from people not knowing Who and what is going on out there. I would be happy if USDA, states, SARE and for that matter, provided info on CSAs that want their names, etc to be made available. I'd hate to think that this is somehow "secret" information... Right now if you call an organic certifier with a question about local organic operations you usually run into a brick wall or an exhorbitant "research" fee...I just recently found out that the list of FSIS approved organic meat labels is not available unless you use the Freedom of Information Act. This, to me is absurd. CSA's, organic farmers, certified organic operations lists, etc... are BUSINESSES for Pete's sake. I thought businesses wanted to be promoted. I sure do. As far as info: the who, what when where and maybe even why should be up there. Certification status should be there. Where else the farmers sell (stores, pick up spots, farmers markets...) Range of items. How flexible the operation is (single units or only family ones--do they cater to special needs?--internship/job opportunities--farm tours...) A lot of us pay for ads to do this kind of thing--why wouldn't we want it to be available to people? I wonder if there really is a CSA "movement." I know I have not had a great deal of help or good contact from other local CSAs. It's more like competition--some here have even badmouthed each other to try to gain more business. It's time farmers, especially CSA farmers begin to really hang together. Farming is hard. We need each other's support and support from the gvmt as well. If we don't make ourselves visible and work with each other we will not last. I see no reason why all the groups cannot create a synergistic relationship. But then I have also seen the competition for grant money that organizations can get into. It's time to end this and be a COMMUNITY of CSAs. The more that work to educate and promote us, the better. And yes, I know about SARE and SAN. My North Central Region SARE Techincal Committee (Producer member) appointment ends this year and it has been a valuable and educational experience. I have treasured the people and the knowledge that came with it. If anyone else ever gets the opportunity to be a part of SARE--go for it! At 09:11 AM 10/7/99 -0700, Kirsten Saylor wrote: >Another question for everyone on the list. > >The USDA has been talking with Parade Magazine which is working on a feature article >about CSAs (Nov issue will be about food trends). Parade is strongly asking for a >"one-stop shop" source for people to connect with a CSA in their area. There really is >no ONE place right now, although Steve Moore with Wilson College and the Robyn van En >Center is working on one. > >With a readership of around 84 million people, the article could be a great way to >highlight CSAs and many of the problems with conventional food system. Without the >one-stop-shop, there's a strong feeling that the article wouldn't be published. SAN/SARE >in conjunction with the CSA Center (Moore) could be the one-stop-shop for interim, and >probably have the CSA center take it on long term. > >My questions/issues that I would like to hear from people (and quickly, there's a near >deadline on this) are: > >What are your feelings on having a national database? Would you want to be on it? What >information would you not want to have posted? >Consider: privacy issues, "updatability", usefulness of a database to you in recruiting >new members... > >Would this be of benefit to the CSA MOVEMENT? What of the organizations that already >maintain regional directories? Would this be a project that could recognize their work >and benefit them as well? > >I welcome any other thoughts you have on the matter. My personal thoughts have been that >when ONE organization has a complete listing, then it takes away from the grassroots of >the movement and colors it as mainstream. It also seems that a national "database" of >CSA farms (if it is even feasible) be anti-thetical to the movement itself (people >supporting an alternative food system, one that is not monolithic). > >I welcome your thoughts! > >Lastly, I am assuming that nearly everyone on this list knows of the SARE program. This >is really unfair of me, and I hope that if you are not familiar with SARE and SAN (the >information arm of SARE) that you will take a look at our webpage or please contact me >directly for more information. I would be more than happy to answer any questions you >have about SAN and SARE. > >Kirsten Saylor >Sustainable Agriculture Network >C/O AFSIC, National Agricultural Library >10301 Baltimore Ave, room 304 >Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 >301/504-6173 >ksaylor@nal.usda.gov >www.sare.org > > >===== >Kirsten Saylor >1708 N. Troy St. #805 >Arlington, VA 22201 >703/465-9647 > >God is in the details >-- attributed to Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 14:56:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13429 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 14:56:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25506; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:56:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25344 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:55:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.118]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id ya345408 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:48:46 -0600 Message-ID: <37FCED9F.F52ABC4D@gilanet.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:00:12 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: One stop shop Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4661A26997D0E3F32CACF93C" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4661A26997D0E3F32CACF93C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be really happy about the "one stop shop idea". I think building recognition for all CSA farms as a way for consumers to get the highest quality produce at a great price and support local farms is a terrific idea. I know that many, many people now use the web to do extensive searches before they move to a new area to find the services that are available there. I think that CSA members who move, as well as people just looking for a CSA for the first time would benefit dramatically from a "one stop shop" for CSA info. It would also be possible to develop links with many types of organizations that would lead people to a CSA farm in their area. I'm thinking about how promotion of our CSA has spread through groups like an organization that supports nursing moms. With a growing number of people seeking organic food, and threats to the organic standard, CSA farms offer a safe and sustainable choice that I think many more consumers would choose if they knew about it! Just my opinion. Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM --------------4661A26997D0E3F32CACF93C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <37FCED10.15DE9115@gilanet.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:57:49 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Re: References: <19991007161110.12511.rocketmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd be really happy about the "one stop shop idea". I think building recognition for all CSA farms as a way for consumers to get the highest quality produce at a great price and support local farms is a terrific idea. I know that many, many people now use the web to do extensive searches before they move to a new area to find the services that are available there. I think that CSA members who move, as well as people just looking for a CSA for the first time would benefit dramatically from a "one stop shop" for CSA info. It would also be possible to develop links with many types of organizations that would lead people to a CSA farm in their area. I'm thinking about how promotion of our CSA has spread through groups like an organization that supports nursing moms. With a growing number of people seeking organic food, and threats to the organic standard, CSA farms offer a safe and sustainable choice that I think many more consumers would choose if they knew about it! Just my opinion. Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM --------------4661A26997D0E3F32CACF93C-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 16:04:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14630 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 16:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA23432; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:04:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23313 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 15:03:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wiser.excite.com ([199.172.152.234]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19991007200247.KTXL26736.kuku@wiser.excite.com> for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:02:47 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: One stop shop Message-Id: <939326567.7055.769@excite.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 13:02:47 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.125 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 I too am in agreement that a national database/"one stop shop" would be benificial. I have been having a tough time finding members for our CSA mostly because of ignorance-no one it seems on the Indiana/Ohio line even knows what the CSA concept is all about so right now we get few members and educate people. Most folks around here think that "CSA" is some sort of farm labor union and when i explain that it is not a labor union but a new form of farming they get lost. An articlke in a place like Parade would go a long way towards clearing this and other misconceptions about CSA. I agree with Cissy that there doesn't seem to be any kind of CSA movement around here. We are the only CSA in the area though 2 others are opening next season. We don't have competition from the other farmers around here because there aren't any but there is also no communication between us either-I know the YS/Dayton area has several CSA but I don't know who they all are (But I will list you on my web page as an ohio CSA if you email me). I do see one problem with a national database which is keeping it updated-CSA do come and go with great frequency. But I suppose that that can be up to each farm to relist every season. As was already said CSA is a Business and if we want to succeed we need as much publicity as we can get and free news articles are the best advertisements of all. Yes I would like to be included in the data base if it happens > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 19:47:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19612 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA19334; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:47:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (IDENT:G+Kp216/94bVVXv6DEPf8TijIxoxursQ@sungod.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.104]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18732 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:40:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from marlaz (flynn11.slip.yorku.ca [130.63.184.117]) by sungod.ccs.yorku.ca (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA18366 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <007401bf111d$429a5e80$75b83f82@marlaz> From: "Ted Battiston" To: Subject: The one stop shop debate Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:39:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF10FB.B1AE7760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 644 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF10FB.B1AE7760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,=20 I'm new to this list, not a farmer, nor am I American. However, as a masters student in environmental ethics I am administering = =3D a CSA in BC, Canada. I believe in the CSA model as an important =3D opportunity to engage my local community into a closer relationship and = =3D dialogue with local growers, local community and with the environment. I = =3D agree with food critic Brewster Kneen, CSAs are a direct and meaningful = =3D resistance to global food systems that separate and distance people =3D (physically, culturally and intellectually) from the sources of their = =3D food - both from the growers and from the land. I'm sure no one here =3D needs this reminder, but I think it bears on the dialogue at hand. =3D Kristen commented that when an organization has ONE listing it loses its = =3D 'grassrootedness'. I have two thoughts on this, first we could be so =3D lucky if the notion of the CSA became mainstream and wide-spread. I =3D would think all those involved would like to see a national food system = =3D based on the CSA model rather than current global agribusiness. Needless = =3D to say, community and the environment would also be well served in this = =3D way. Secondly, whatever a CSA monolith may be, I'm not convinced that a = =3D website that a national list of all CSAs would have the effect of =3D creating a monolith, reducing individuality, or reducing local =3D attachment of CSA farmers to their communities. I don't believe people = =3D believe in CSAs because there're rare, or trendy or cool. People support = =3D this 'alternative food system' because they believe in the alternative = =3D itself, not because its simply non-monolithical. A monolithic system =3D made of a myriad of small CSAs, family farms and local self-sufficiency = =3D is hardly a system to be feared. Perhaps, I've had too much coffee today, but these are my thoughts. Ted. _______________________________________________________ Ted Battiston Masters Candidate Environmental =3D Studies 17 Flamingo Cres. York University North York, Ontario. 4700 Keele Street, M6M 4E9 Toronto, Ontario. theodore@yorku.ca M3J 1P3 _______________________________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF10FB.B1AE7760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,
     
    I'm new to this list, not a farmer, nor am I = American.

    However, as a=20 masters student in environmental ethics I am administering =3D
    a CSA = in BC,=20 Canada. I believe in the CSA model as an important =3D
    opportunity to = engage my=20 local community into a closer relationship and =3D
    dialogue with = local growers,=20 local community and with the environment. I =3D
    agree with food = critic Brewster=20 Kneen, CSAs are a direct and meaningful =3D
    resistance to global food = systems=20 that separate and distance people =3D
    (physically, culturally and=20 intellectually) from the sources of their =3D
    food - both from the = growers and=20 from the land. I'm sure no one here =3D
    needs this reminder, but I = think it=20 bears on the dialogue at hand. =3D
    Kristen commented that when an = organization=20 has ONE listing it loses its =3D
    'grassrootedness'. I have two = thoughts on=20 this, first we could be so =3D
    lucky if the notion of the CSA became = mainstream=20 and wide-spread. I =3D
    would think all those involved would like to = see a=20 national food system =3D
    based on the CSA model rather than current = global=20 agribusiness. Needless =3D
    to say, community and the environment = would also be=20 well served in this =3D
    way. Secondly, whatever a CSA monolith may = be, I'm not=20 convinced that a =3D
    website that a national list of all CSAs would = have the=20 effect of =3D
    creating a monolith, reducing individuality, or = reducing local=20 =3D
    attachment of CSA farmers to their communities. I don't believe = people=20 =3D
    believe in CSAs because there're rare, or trendy or cool. People = support=20 =3D
    this 'alternative food system' because they believe in the = alternative=20 =3D
    itself, not because its simply non-monolithical. A monolithic = system=20 =3D
    made of a myriad of small CSAs, family farms and local = self-sufficiency=20 =3D
    is hardly a system to be feared.

    Perhaps, I've had too = much coffee=20 today, but these are my=20 thoughts.

    Ted.
    ________________________________________________= _______
    Ted=20 Battiston          &nbs= p;            = ;=20 Masters Candidate Environmental =3D
    Studies
    17 Flamingo=20 Cres.           &n= bsp; =20 York University
    North York,=20 Ontario.           = ; =20 4700 Keele Street,
    M6M=20 4E9           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Toronto, Ontario.
    theodore@yorku.ca   =          =20 M3J=20 1P3
    _______________________________________________________
    <= /BODY> ------=_NextPart_000_006C_01BF10FB.B1AE7760-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 22:30:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21855 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03573; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:30:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp1.supernet.com (IDENT:qmailr@smtp1.desupernet.net [204.249.184.44]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA03440 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:28:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 24398 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1999 02:27:51 -0000 Received: from 188-32.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.32) by smtp1.supernet.com with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 02:27:51 -0000 Message-ID: <37FD579C.833B6FDA@mail.cvn.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 22:31:57 -0400 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Quality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 Hi I been reading the messages and would like to hear from the group, when you talk about quality how do you measure this??????????????/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 7 22:54:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22081 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA05519; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:53:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA05440 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:53:34 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dDIPa01795 (4314) for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.8530006e.252eb68c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 22:53:00 EDT Subject: Re:One stop Shop: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 << The USDA has been talking with Parade Magazine which is working on a feature article about CSAs >> The fact that the USDA is representing the CSA movement has me scared to death! This is the same organization that proposed the bastardized organic standards last year. CAUTION, WARNING, WARNING WILL ROBINSON! This is no friend of alternative agriculture. I cannot hear a word they are saying because their actions are screaming at me so loudly. Let me review their article before I give any support or align my farm with this devil. Just one opinion from a simple farmer. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 08:48:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27452 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09833; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:48:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09743 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:47:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.161] (216-224-156-66.stk.jps.net [216.224.156.66]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA01332 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:47:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.8530006e.252eb68c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:53:48 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re:One stop Shop: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 647 Art et al, Does the phrase "i'm from the government and I'm here to help" sound familiar. To be pro-active on this, perhaps the Northeast group or Wisconsin group should contact Parade with the names of some farms... Marcie From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 09:05:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27683 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA11327; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:05:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11255 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:04:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA05869; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:04:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-178.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.178) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005842; Fri Oct 8 08:03:52 1999 Message-ID: <00a301bf118d$b98ab740$b2f96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Dan Hook" , Subject: Re: Closing up season Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:04:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 648 I suppose most of you are like us, winding down the >season yet still very busy. I thought it would be fun for everyone to give >a story of how there year went. It would also be good for those who are on >the list as "future" CSA owners. Our year went well, busy though. It's only >our second year so it was hard work. But I feel we learned alot. We opened >the early June with "Opening day" we gave horse drawn hayrides and past out >the late spring veggies, and kept telling everyone no the tomatoes won't be >ready till July :). Well July came and so did a bumper crop of tomatoes so >many that when they started to wane people were glad! We have not yet >frosted, but we will officially close Oct. 17. It may frost before that but >if it doesn't we'll close use the last pick up day as the day people can >take home the last of the potatoes and a few winter squash and as many green >tomatoes as they want. >We had a small waiting list last year plus a few people who didn't "find" us >until the season was underway (we were full though) and next years >membership will be limited as well, no more than 45 I hope more like 40. So >to be fair to those on the waiting list, but still give this years people >first dibs I notified everyone that the last week-end in Sept would be >Pumpkin and re-sign up week-end. Pumpkins we planted alot way down the >field so we hayrided down and they chose their pumpkins. Those who attended >really enjoyed it. But the good news of my 37 members on that week-end >alone I got 17 deposit checks, in September for the following June! I >expect a few more will also sign up they just a procrastinating. I also got >a deposit check from one of the people who found us late last year so thats >18, just about 1/2 of goal. I sent out 3 flyers today let ya know what they >say. Anyone else "require" such an early re-sign up. We felt we needed it >for our planning of next year. >An ad comes out in a local paper this Friday we open Pumpkin sales to the >general public, fingers crossed! We could really use the income, ah! or at >least pay for the ad. We are advertising hayrides to the Pumpkins I am half >afraid no one will come and terrified everyone for 50 miles will show up. I >have helped a friend quite a few times give hayrides at festivals I have >seen people pay $2 a person then wait in line an hour for a ride around a >small field I know horse drawn hayrides are popular. Parking, paying for >the pumpkins.............this new business stuff is tiring. So how's >everyone? Write. Beth >Ps I am aware there are some errors in the above, but I have no mouse so I >am not going to try to fix them :) > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 09:30:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28172 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA14171; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:30:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from charger.oldcity.dca.net (charger.oldcity.dca.net [207.245.82.76]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14079 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:30:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from postoffice.dca.net (postoffice.dca.net [204.183.80.65]) by charger.oldcity.dca.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA25115 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:29:48 -0400 Received: from [208.0.39.156] (ppp-208-0-39-156.cust.oldcity.dca.net [208.0.39.156]) by postoffice.dca.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA06408 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:30:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: nwygant@postoffice.dca.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:32:50 -0400 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: nwygant@dca.net (Nancy Wygant) Subject: one-stop shop Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 649 Hi - I think it would be great to have a national database run by the Robyn van En Center, as Kirsten Saylor originally mentioned, but I'd shy away from the USDA running it. Partly that's for the same reasons Art Biggert wrote in with - with friends like that, after the organic standards they proposed, who needs enemies. On the other hand, I'm sure there are offices within the USDA where the good people working there are less beholden to corporate interests. Deeper than that, though - my basic understanding of government is that it exists because a community gets together, decides certain things needs to be done, and delegates them to someone. And the problem with government in the US these days (and for a long time now) is that there's not much of that original connection any more. Exactly parallel to the problem with agriculture - and for all the same reasons. So if building CSAs is our response to agribusiness, how does that translate to other issues? The basic idea seems to me to be, let's do this ourselves, working together, in a small enough group to know each other and be accountable, in a way that nurtures the land community and human community that sustain us. So I think a national (and international) network is a great idea (promoting broader links of community as a context for the local ones) - and I think we should do it ourselves, together, on a scale that's accountable. Which the USDA is not at this point. Blessings, Nancy Wygant preparing to start an urban CSA Philadelphia PA USA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 09:40:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28309 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA15420; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:40:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15336 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:40:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.161] (216-224-141-165.stk.jps.net [216.224.141.165]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA12971; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19991007161110.12511.rocketmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:46:33 -0800 To: Kirsten Saylor From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: One-stop-shop Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 650 Dear Kirsten, Opps, reading my e-mail backwards... One of the challenges of a national database on CSA is that CSA means slightly different systems in different regions of the country. Community is huge in the way Van En et al envisioned it and rules the East coast. CSA as a marketing tool is what rules most here in California. In the sociological sense "community" in developed countries is a group of no more than about 35,000 people. Cities/towns larger than that tend to break into "neighborhoods," or re-communitize if you will. So there seems to be a natural limit to what we can get our heads around as community. To some, CSA is about communities supporting the farms in their midsts, and the farms making a commitment to those communities. To some, it's also a community food security issue. To some it's a sustainability issue, using local resources and "recycling" the food locally as opposed to transporting it all over the place. One-stop-shopping is antithecal to most of the above ideals. Perhaps, if that's the string attached to the article, it's better not written. From both the philosophical and the marketing standpoints, it would be targeting the wrong audience. Vis a vis the Internet as one-stop-shopping, perhaps the best solution is to explain the philosophy, advantages and issues of CSA on a page, then link to existing regional sites already supporting CSAs. The regional organizations can be responsible for update and accuracy on their own sites. Affected farms are pretty responsive to requests for update (provided those requests don't come at the height of the season.) Regional sites also tend to reflect the differences in climate, season, and philosphy within the region. Besides regional organizations reflect their "community" of CSA farms. So much from my empty mind... Marcie A. Rosenzweig From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 09:53:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28499 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16760; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:52:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.128.108]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16663 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:52:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from staranto (ppp-06-ts21.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.73.90]) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with SMTP id JAA60278 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:52:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19991008100153.007b1e40@ufl.edu> X-Sender: staranto@ufl.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:01:53 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Stephen Taranto Subject: Re:the feds In-Reply-To: References: <0.8530006e.252eb68c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 651 I'd like to know--if anyone knows--why the government is representing CSAs at all? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 09:54:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28528 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA17022; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:54:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16949 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 08:54:15 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dWVE5IYUx_ (4155) for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.9bbf5534.252f5167@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:53:43 EDT Subject: Closing up the season To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id IAA16950 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 652 Beth, Our season closes on Nov. 16, 1999. This is our third year, my second as a grower for the Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition of the greater Fredericksburg, VA area. This year was a challenge, weatherwise, but I feel we accomplished a lot. Our CSA is currently made up of 4 small 'farms' (all gardens are 2 acres and under) that produce for 40 families. One of our farms was able to offer eggs shares to our members. Two of our farms received their official Virginia Organic Certification this year. We began construction on a combination shed/greenhouse at one farm, with the work very nearly finished. The extremely dry spring (we had not yet recovered from last year's drought) was distressing and affected yields of our early crops. The recent torrential rains and hurricane-related winds wiped out some of our late summer vegetables like tomatoes. All in all though, I'd say growing conditions were better than last year, when I was baking 40 loaves of bread each week of the summer to supplement low garden yields. (I haven't baked a loaf of bread since!) Most of our members commented on the relatively large amount of food produced under the disaster-drought conditions and were happy to be have been able to try new and exciting vegetables and recipes. I hope that translates to a high percent of return members in 2000. We'll know next year.... Of course there are always those few members who lack enthusiasm, have still not completed their working share hours, or rarely show up for produce pick-up. (I sometimes wonder why they join in the first place.) I have already started surveying seed catalogues for new varieties of vegetables to try next year and I'm seriously considering the addition of apple trees at the garden I run in King George Co. Though I am looking forward to having some time off this winter (I can sleep in on Saturdays) spring can't get here soon enough! Heidi Lewis CSOFC organizer/grower From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 10:27:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29046 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20526; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20422 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:26:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:26:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910081426.JAA20422@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 22066 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1999 14:26:18 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-12.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as002-123.iquest.net) (209.43.55.12) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 14:26:18 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Stephen Taranto From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re:the feds Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 653 I guess the use of the word "represent" is bothering me here. From what I heard USDA may be one source of information about CSA's. I did not see anything in the original post that indicated that they would "represent" us in any real way. After all, it is us and only us, as individuals and groups, that can truly "represent" ourselves to government, unless we give someone else the power to do it. USDA is supposed to be there to listen and to assist. Maybe I am idealistic, but I feel that the more we stay directly involved in the process of representing ourselves to gvmt, the more gvmt knows us, our needs and desires, and the better they can do their jobs. Yes, it is true USDA botched the original Organic Rule--but then what happened? 275,000 people talked them right back to the drawing board where they still sit working on another Rule. Will this one be better? If it is it will be greatly because of the individuals who are following this process and continuing to comment. I am one of the people who has followed the process--I've attended and given public input at every NOSB meeting since 1993. Through the Organic Farmers Marketing Association, I and my fellow board members were responsible for over 25,000 of those public comments taht came in. I have stayed in their faces and helped others who have imnportant information stay in their faces too. I've set up meetings for farmers to talk to the head of the Ag Marketing Service. Our gvmt is supposed to be "we the people" and if we hide from gvmt then we sure can expect any kind of representation or any consideration. Some things that everyone should know: The new head of AMS is Kathleen Merrigan. SHe was the author of the Organic Foods Production and and was an NOSB member until she was named as head of AMS. How well she will do in this role is yet to be seen, but we do at least have a person in USDA who knows what CSA's are. If we ever want to be included in things like disaster assistance then we need USDA to understand what we do, and we need people who don't have to ask "what is a CSA?" USDA does a pretty good job with websites--have you ever seen the NOP site? check it out at www.usda.ams.gov/nop/ Private organizations are not always the best source of "representation." I have heard enough public input from groups that charge high membership fees to make me sick. WHen you see these well-paid individuals who have never had their hands dirty in their lives stand up and represent you as a farmer or a csa operator you'll wish you had gone straight to the gvmt to represent yourself. The gvmt HAS TO listen to us, but the private groups don't. Now maybe the CSA groups aren't like that but I have watched grassroots organizations get just as rich and just as elitist and ugly as any division of gvmt. It can happen here too. I don't belong to a lot of organizations anymore simply because they had the gall to stand up and say they represented the entire organic or farming community and then sold us out with their comments. My conclusion is that if USDA wants to do a site on us and keep a database, how can it hurt? That doesn't preclude us from having our own databases too. It sure won't make me take down my webpage or tell eveyone to stop linking to it. There need not be one-stop-shopping unless everybody hands the whole responsibilty to one group or the other. I've been written up in a couple of CSA directories and in one case the write up was incorrect. I can't do a thing about that--but if it was USDA I would have recourse and a way to MAKE them change it. The more ways the public can find out about us, the better for us and our "movement." At 10:01 AM 10/8/99 -0400, Stephen Taranto wrote: >I'd like to know--if anyone knows--why the government is representing CSAs >at all? > > > > > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 10:57:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29453 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23704; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:56:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from danenet.wicip.org (dnelson@[139.135.34.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23616 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:56:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (dnelson@localhost) by danenet.wicip.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02209; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:12:54 -0500 Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:12:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Dean Nelson To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: grain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 654 On Tue, 28 Sep 1999 HowdiHeidi@aol.com wrote: > Dear CSA-list members, > I spent most of yesterday trying to track down seed sources for spelt. After > talking to my local Cooperative Extension agent, the folks at VA Seedsman > Assoc. and, finally, the Ohio Crop Improvement center, I found a company > called French's in Wakeman , Ohio. They carry 3 varieties of spelt that > contain no wheat plasm and are available untreated for organic production. > Their web address is: > http://www.accnorwalk.com/~frenchs/ > I hope this information can be useful to any of you (and save you a lot of > time searching by phone/computer) who have been inspired, by recent > discussions, to produce grain on a small scale for your CSA members.... I want to thank Heidi for this information. I have often been tempted to post something similar after spending weeks tracking down a source of information. I have a question for the group: Does anyone know of a source for open polinated corn varieties that are especially good for corn meal? Dean Nelson Laurel Vista Farm Ligonier, PA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 11:58:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00888 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29825; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:58:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29721 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:57:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA02346; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:57:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1b-178.ix.netcom.com(209.110.249.178) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002290; Fri Oct 8 10:56:22 1999 Message-ID: <00e801bf11a5$d35803e0$b2f96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Closing up the season Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:57:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 655 Heidi, Thanks for you nice note. Many things you wrote I could have written myself. Especially the part about people not coming for their stuff. I have on guy who maybe got 6 baskets if that. I called, think I wrote a postcard explaining that I now have a basement refridge. and with NOTIFICATION I would leave his stuff in there and he could get it at his convienence, he did not take me up on it and came one day UNANNOUNCED on a non pickup day looking for veggies. I am so glad he's gone. I have had others that were chronic no shows, no call nothing, above all else its the no shows that make me talk to myself :). I realize limiting hours can be well limiting, but I offered by refridge method to everyone, so half way through the summer I quite calling and just ate the food myself. What is great however is that the nice people, those who "get it" are the ones who have re-signed up I am looking forward to dealing with them again. I will of course have new people fingers crossed that they are nice. So you really baked bread, heavens. Did it help, do you feel it saved your membership retention? We were somewhat effected by the drought, but with our drips we keep most of the stuff alive, and got many comments about how good the garden looked given the drought. Made us feel ever so smart :). It frosted here the past two nights so only got after today two more pick up days. I am glad. Although already planning what to grow next year. My last three pick-ups are 7 minutes away from being late. One of them is a chronic no show or late. Oh well think snow! I am so glad to be back on the list, I was unsubscribed somehow, wondered why no messages for 2 weeks, Good Good luck Beth -----Original Message----- From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 9:54 AM Subject: Closing up the season >Beth, >Our season closes on Nov. 16, 1999. This is our third year, my second as a >grower for the Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition of the greater >Fredericksburg, VA area. This year was a challenge, weatherwise, but I feel >we accomplished a lot. Our CSA is currently made up of 4 small 'farms' (all >gardens are 2 acres and under) that produce for 40 families. One of our farms >was able to offer eggs shares to our members. Two of our farms received their >official Virginia Organic Certification this year. We began construction on a >combination shed/greenhouse at one farm, with the work very nearly finished. > The extremely dry spring (we had not yet recovered from last year's >drought) was distressing and affected yields of our early crops. The recent >torrential rains and hurricane-related winds wiped out some of our late >summer vegetables like tomatoes. All in all though, I'd say growing >conditions were better than last year, when I was baking 40 loaves of bread >each week of the summer to supplement low garden yields. (I haven't baked a >loaf of bread since!) > Most of our members commented on the relatively large amount of food >produced under the disaster-drought conditions and were happy to be have been >able to try new and exciting vegetables and recipes. I hope that translates >to a high percent of return members in 2000. We'll know next year.... Of >course there are always those few members who lack enthusiasm, have still not >completed their working share hours, or rarely show up for produce pick-up. >(I sometimes wonder why they join in the first place.) > I have already started surveying seed catalogues for new varieties of >vegetables to try next year and I'm seriously considering the addition of >apple trees at the garden I run in King George Co. Though I am looking >forward to having some time off this winter (I can sleep in on Saturdays) >spring can't get here soon enough! >Heidi Lewis >CSOFC organizer/grower > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 12:03:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00972 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00403; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:03:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA00345 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:02:50 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:02:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910081602.LAA00345@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 4445 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1999 16:02:43 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-12.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as002-123.iquest.net) (209.43.55.12) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Oct 1999 16:02:43 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: David King From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: the feds: Web Link? Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 656 I just checked and it is http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/ Sorry, I had it backwards! Thanks for the correction! Long days here at Center Valley Organic Farm too... At 08:44 AM 10/8/99 -0700, David King wrote: >Cecilia, > >Your web link didn't work for me... would you double check it? > >Thanks, >david > >Cecilia Bowman wrote: > >> I guess the use of the word "represent" is bothering me here. From what I >> heard USDA may be one source of information about CSA's. I did not see >> anything in the original post that indicated that they would "represent" us >> in any real way. >> >> After all, it is us and only us, as individuals and groups, that can truly >> "represent" ourselves to government, unless we give someone else the power >> to do it. USDA is supposed to be there to listen and to assist. >> >> Maybe I am idealistic, but I feel that the more we stay directly involved in >> the process of representing ourselves to gvmt, the more gvmt knows us, our >> needs and desires, and the better they can do their jobs. >> >> Yes, it is true USDA botched the original Organic Rule--but then what >> happened? 275,000 people talked them right back to the drawing board where >> they still sit working on another Rule. Will this one be better? If it is >> it will be greatly because of the individuals who are following this process >> and continuing to comment. I am one of the people who has followed the >> process--I've attended and given public input at every NOSB meeting since >> 1993. Through the Organic Farmers Marketing Association, I and my fellow >> board members were responsible for over 25,000 of those public comments taht >> came in. I have stayed in their faces and helped others who have imnportant >> information stay in their faces too. I've set up meetings for farmers to >> talk to the head of the Ag Marketing Service. Our gvmt is supposed to be >> "we the people" and if we hide from gvmt then we sure can expect any kind of >> representation or any consideration. >> >> Some things that everyone should know: >> >> The new head of AMS is Kathleen Merrigan. SHe was the author of the Organic >> Foods Production and and was an NOSB member until she was named as head of >> AMS. How well she will do in this role is yet to be seen, but we do at least >> have a person in USDA who knows what CSA's are. If we ever want to be >> included in things like disaster assistance then we need USDA to understand >> what we do, and we need people who don't have to ask "what is a CSA?" >> >> USDA does a pretty good job with websites--have you ever seen the NOP site? >> check it out at www.usda.ams.gov/nop/ >> >> Private organizations are not always the best source of "representation." I >> have heard enough public input from groups that charge high membership fees >> to make me sick. WHen you see these well-paid individuals who have never >> had their hands dirty in their lives stand up and represent you as a farmer >> or a csa operator you'll wish you had gone straight to the gvmt to represent >> yourself. The gvmt HAS TO listen to us, but the private groups don't. Now >> maybe the CSA groups aren't like that but I have watched grassroots >> organizations get just as rich and just as elitist and ugly as any division >> of gvmt. It can happen here too. I don't belong to a lot of organizations >> anymore simply because they had the gall to stand up and say they >> represented the entire organic or farming community and then sold us out >> with their comments. >> >> My conclusion is that if USDA wants to do a site on us and keep a database, >> how can it hurt? That doesn't preclude us from having our own databases >> too. It sure won't make me take down my webpage or tell eveyone to stop >> linking to it. There need not be one-stop-shopping unless everybody hands >> the whole responsibilty to one group or the other. I've been written up in >> a couple of CSA directories and in one case the write up was incorrect. I >> can't do a thing about that--but if it was USDA I would have recourse and a >> way to MAKE them change it. The more ways the public can find out about us, >> the better for us and our "movement." >> >> At 10:01 AM 10/8/99 -0400, Stephen Taranto wrote: >> >I'd like to know--if anyone knows--why the government is representing CSAs >> >at all? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Cissy Bowman, >> President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >> Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >> Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >> 8364 S SR 39 >> Clayton, IN 46118 >> 317-539-4317 >> cvof@iquest.net > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 14:15:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03051 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA13857; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:15:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA13735 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:14:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.159]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id ma348776 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:07:20 -0600 Message-ID: <37FE3567.E141CA7E@gilanet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:18:31 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: End of season surveys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 657 Does anyone else do end of season surveys? We're working on one to find out what our members like and don't like and what we could change to make it better for them next season. If anyone else has surveys and would be willing to post them for us to get ideas from, I'd sure appreciate it! We're going to try to get one together by Tuesday, our second to last delivery day. And, once we have ours together I'll post it for others to see. Thanks! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 14:27:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03224 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14973; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:27:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14902 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:26:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.159]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id la348801 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:20:09 -0600 Message-ID: <37FE3858.557FE539@gilanet.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 12:31:08 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Closing up season References: <00a301bf118d$b98ab740$b2f96ed1@dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 658 We've had a couple light frosts, but it's still hot in the daytime. Things are good. We have 2 more CSA deliveries and maybe 4-6 more farmers markets to go. We're still sitting on 15,000 or so pounds of onions we've been having to deliver to far away markets, as well as tons of winter squash. Seed harvesting and cleaning is beginning to take up more and more time. Lots of the fields have already been mowed and will soon be tilled and put into cover for the winter. I noticed others were thinking about seeds for next year, and wanted to mention that our farm began primarily as a seed farm, with the CSA growing out of our desire to feed, and interact with, the local community. The farm manager here, Richard Pecoraro, used to manage the farm where Seeds of Change started out. We still grow lots of seeds for SOC. We don't have our own catalog at the moment, though hopefully that will happen this winter. But we do have almost 300 varieties of open pollinated organic seeds that we grow. Lots of veggies, melons, flowers, medicinal herbs, etc. I think we have a list somewhere around here, and if anyone would like one email me and I'll send it to you. Best wishes to everybody at this auspicious time of year! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 17:45:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06442 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA05409; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:45:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05253 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:44:27 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dBCUa23737 (3864) for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.36756604.252fbf98@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:43:52 EDT Subject: Re: Closing up season To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id QAA05256 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 659 Stef, I would be interested in a copy of your seed list. Also, regarding end of season surveys, I found a helpful article in the Community Farm Newsletter on the internet, entitled "Surveying Community" by William Willging, PhD. I don't remember the web address for The Community Farm, but their e-mail is fsfarm@mufn.org This website shouldn't be too difficult to find. Heidi Lewis CSOFC Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 18:22:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07173 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA08501; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:22:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08401 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:22:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA02210; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:21:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma2d-81.ix.netcom.com(209.110.255.81) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001901; Fri Oct 8 17:20:12 1999 Message-ID: <006b01bf11db$73b03120$51ff6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: End of season surveys Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:21:18 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 660 I Steve, I was too chicken to draft a "real" survey, meaning in this only our second year I wasn't sure my skin was thick enough for "constructive criticism". I did ask people to tell me (in my newsletter) what was their favorite and lest favorite veggie. Only a few told me. However without a survey I still have a pretty good idea why people are coming back and why they are not. Almost without fail all the people who have re-signed up had basically perfect attendance. These are the people who told me how much they liked something and how they cooked it. The ones who have not re-signed up are the ones with less than perfect attendance. So leads me to believe they didn't like the fact that we are not open 24/7 :). I had one member, my least favorite of all by a huge margin (I could take all the rest of them again but will do cartwheels if she does not come back) in answer to my above questions she answered with questions, humorous really. She wanted to know if we were planning on more of a few certain veggies and have them available every week. Corn available everyweek! She said her kids didn't like that much stuff, 2 & 3, so she was giving alot away, letting allot spoil, and then running to the farm stand (this is someone who gushed over the fact that we are pesticide free! ) to by other stuff. Can you say freeze abit of stuff, can you say what was she and her husband eating? Oh well I ranted enough! But as my family knows she tended to make me rant, she also never watched her kids, they'd be all over everything and she was in la la land. It got so serious I just would make sure her basket was fully ready and basically hand it through her car window (well not quite). I'd love to read your survey, Thanks Beth -----Original Message----- From: Stef Fuegi To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 2:15 PM Subject: End of season surveys >Does anyone else do end of season surveys? We're working on one to find >out what our members like and don't like and what we could change to >make it better for them next season. If anyone else has surveys and >would be willing to post them for us to get ideas from, I'd sure >appreciate it! We're going to try to get one together by Tuesday, our >second to last delivery day. > >And, once we have ours together I'll post it for others to see. > >Thanks! Stef Fuegi >Bear Creek Farms >Gila, NM > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 19:02:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07635 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA11745; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:02:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.thestreet.com (smtp.thestreet.com [208.241.190.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11276 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:00:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jherr ([209.122.227.154]) by smtp.thestreet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-58593U400L100S0V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:36:50 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19991008185415.010d02c8@mail.thestreet.com> X-Sender: Jherr@mail.thestreet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 18:54:18 +0000 To: "Dan Hook" , , From: Jeff Herr Subject: Re: End of season surveys Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_939408858==_" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 661 --=====================_939408858==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello all, This being our first year, we were not sure what to expect from our survey. It went out last Friday and we have now about 10 back (out of 90 members). The feedback has been wonderful, a mix of constructive criticism and praise. One thing is ringing true: Our members seem to be genuinely in touch with the perils and pitfalls we experienced this year. This I attribute to our weekly newsletter. In it we talk about the changing seasons, what's happening in the field and recipes for this week's bounty. So when the arugula is full of holes, they hopefully remember that we didn't get the row cover down in time to stop the beetles. Anyway, we're so glad we did this survey as it has helped us shape next year's planting plan (less cardoon and beets, more corn and okra and peas). We also have learned a little more about our weekly logistics. And we included a space where they can jot down friends and family that might be interested. I'd call those qualified leads. I've attached our survey. Hope attachments are acceptable on a list like this. Jeff Herr The Cabbage Ranch Carnation, WA At 06:21 PM 10/8/99 -0400, Dan Hook wrote: >I Steve, I was too chicken to draft a "real" survey, meaning in this only >our second year I wasn't sure my skin was thick enough for "constructive >criticism". I did ask people to tell me (in my newsletter) what was their >favorite and lest favorite veggie. Only a few told me. However without a >survey I still have a pretty good idea why people are coming back and why >they are not. Almost without fail all the people who have re-signed up had >basically perfect attendance. These are the people who told me how much >they liked something and how they cooked it. The ones who have not >re-signed up are the ones with less than perfect attendance. So leads me to >believe they didn't like the fact that we are not open 24/7 :). I had one >member, my least favorite of all by a huge margin (I could take all the rest >of them again but will do cartwheels if she does not come back) in answer to >my above questions she answered with questions, humorous really. She wanted >to know if we were planning on more of a few certain veggies and have them >available every week. Corn available everyweek! She said her kids didn't >like that much stuff, 2 & 3, so she was giving alot away, letting allot >spoil, and then running to the farm stand (this is someone who gushed over >the fact that we are pesticide free! ) to by other stuff. Can you say >freeze abit of stuff, can you say what was she and her husband eating? Oh >well I ranted enough! But as my family knows she tended to make me rant, >she also never watched her kids, they'd be all over everything and she was >in la la land. It got so serious I just would make sure her basket was >fully ready and basically hand it through her car window (well not quite). >I'd love to read your survey, Thanks Beth >-----Original Message----- >From: Stef Fuegi >To: CSA-L@prairienet.org >Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 2:15 PM >Subject: End of season surveys > > >>Does anyone else do end of season surveys? We're working on one to find >>out what our members like and don't like and what we could change to >>make it better for them next season. If anyone else has surveys and >>would be willing to post them for us to get ideas from, I'd sure >>appreciate it! We're going to try to get one together by Tuesday, our >>second to last delivery day. >> >>And, once we have ours together I'll post it for others to see. >> >>Thanks! Stef Fuegi >>Bear Creek Farms >>Gila, NM >> > > --=====================_939408858==_ Content-Type: application/msword; name="The Cabbage Ranch Survey.doc"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="4D535744" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="The Cabbage Ranch Survey.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAJAAAAAAAAAAA EAAAJgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////8BAP7/AwoAAP////8GCQIAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGGAAAAE1pY3Jvc29m dCBXb3JkIERvY3VtZW50AAoAAABNU1dvcmREb2MAEAAAAFdvcmQuRG9jdW1lbnQuOAD0ObJxAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA== --=====================_939408858==_-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 8 22:59:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09976 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27964; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:58:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ux9.cso.uiuc.edu (root@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.39]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27795 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:56:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [130.126.25.158] (arboria-62.slip.uiuc.edu [130.126.25.158]) by ux9.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18827 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:56:41 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jbarclay@mail.prairienet.org Message-Id: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:58:43 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: John Barclay Subject: Fwd: Midwest Small Farm Conference Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 662 >Please distribute freely to organizations, >newspapers, newsletters and other media. >For more information, call (765) 463-9366 > SUSTAINABLE EARTH > presents the > 1999 MIDWEST SMALL FARM > CONFERENCE and TRADE SHOW > "Profitability through Diversification" > November 19 & 20 > Exhibition Center > Hamilton Co. 4-H Grounds > Noblesville, Indiana > >Featuring : Joel Salatin, Sally Fallon > >24 workshops to help build sustainable >farming systems and community food >systems. Extensive Tradeshow of goods >and services for small farmers >FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 19 >7:30 a.m. Doors open >8:30-9:45 Workshop session 1 >A Adding Value to Milk: Cheesemaking and >On-Farm Bottling- Ken Heiman, Wisconsin >farmer, milk bottler and cheesemaker >B From Farm to Table: Building Sustainable >Food Systems - Sue Weant, Partners for Family >Farms, Kentucky >C Diversifying the Organic Farm- Roger Sharritt, > Indiana organic farmer >10:00-11:15 Workshop session 2 >A Small Fruits for the Small Farm - Bruce Bordelon, > Purdue University extension specialist >B Profitable Livestock Production - George Rasmussen, >Michigan organic farmer >C Profits from the Farm Pond - Susan Harkins, >Kentucky organic farmer >11:30-12:30 Keynote >Economics, Environment, and Emotion: Growing and >Eating with a Conscience - Joel Salatin, Virginia farmer >& author >1:30-2:45 Workshop session 3 >A Relationship Marketing - Joel Salatin >B Building Community with CSA- farmer panel from > Indiana, Michigan & Ohio >C Herbs for Diversification -Hank Huggins, Ohio > organic farmer >3:00-4:15 Workshop session 4 >A Marketing Specialty Crops- >Chris Chmiel, Ohio farmer and entrepreneur >B CSA Perspectives - CSA Farmer Panel >C The Nuts & Bolts of On-Farm Research - John Hall, >Wisconsin agronomist >4:30-5:30 Indiana OCIA meeting >SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 20 >7:30 a.m. Doors open >8:30-9:45 Workshop session 5 >A A Multiple Farm CSA- Shelly Gradwell, >Iowa State extension specialist >B Basics of Permaculture - Beth Neff, Indiana >organic farmer >C Organic Hogs & Other Ways to Make Money >- Ed Snavely, Ohio diversified organic farmer >10:00-11:15 Workshop session 6 >A Organic Apple Production - Michael Phillips, >New Hampshire organic farmer and author >(The Apple Grower) >B Plant Breeding on the Farm - J. J. Haapala, >Oregon organic farmer >C Fresh-cut Flowers and Woody Ornamentals >- John Klueh, Indiana farmer >11:30-12:30 Keynote >Keeping the Value-Added Down on the Farm >- Sally Fallon, Washington, D.C. author >1:30-2:45 Workshop session 7 >A Why Butter is Better - Sally Fallon >B Insect Pests and Alternative Control Methods >- Jerry Brust, Purdue University >C Developing On Farm Research Projects >- Teresa Maurer, ATTRA >3:00-4:15 >A Why Butter is Better (pt. 2) - Sally Fallon >B Writing Producer Grants - John Hall >C When Trees Wear Masks: Controlling the Plum >Curculio in Organic Orchards - Michael Phillips >Keynote Speakers: Joel Salatin is a national leader >in the development of strategies to make farms profitable. >His grass based farming practices - especially pastured >poultry - and relationship marketing strategies have been >widely adopted by farmers building sustainable farming >systems. He has authored $alad Bar Beef, Pastured >Poultry Profit$, and You can Farm. >Sally Fallon has examined all of the best scientific studies >about the roles of fat and meat in human nutrition to arrive >at some conclusions about human health and nutrition that >are very different from much of the current thinking. Her >book, Nourishing Traditions, is based upon her own >research and experience and builds upon the work of >Weston Price. >Location: Noblesville is located at the convergence of >Indiana Highways 37, 32, and 38. The Hamilton County > 4-H Fairgrounds is on Pleasant St. one block west of its >intersection with SR 37. (traffic light, Quality Farm & Fleet > on corner). Free Parking at fairgrounds. > -- From Chicago: I-65 south to I-465 East, to I-69 and > exit 5, SR 37, north to Pleasant St. > -- From southern Michigan, south on I-69 to exit 19, west >on SR 38 for 11 miles to SR 37, left (south) one half mile > to light at Pleasant St., west to fairgrounds. >-- From south, east or west of Indianapolis, I-465 to the >northeast corner of Indianapolis, north on I-69 to exit 5, >north on SR 37 for 5 miles to light at Pleasant St., west to >fairgrounds. > >Lodging: (all rates listed are approximate and do not include > taxes of about 10 %) >Super 8, 17070 Dragonfly Lane, Noblesville, (317)776-7088, >58 rooms, rooms are blocked at $45 (any # of people). Ask for >Midwest Farm for Nov 18 arrival. Reserve by Nov 11). Adjacent >to the conference site. > Other lodging is nearby: >Fishers near I-69 and SR 37, (6 miles from >fairgrounds): Holiday Inn, 9780 N By Northeast Blvd, >(317) 578-9000; ($75 up); Holiday Inn Express, 9790 N By >Northwest Blvd., (317) 578-2000; ($75 up) > Castleton, I-69 and 82nd St. (9 miles from the conference). > Dollar Inn, 8110 N Shadeland Ave., (317) 845-0049, > $31 sgl, 36 dbl; Fairfield Inn 8325 Bash, (317) 577-0455, > ($59 for 1 or 2 adults); Hampton Inn, 6817 E. 82nd, St. >(317) 576-0220, (800) 290-4001, $79-84. >Anderson, I-69 and SR 32, ( 20 miles from conference). >Dollar Inn, 6325 S. Scatterfield, (765) 640-1356, ($32 for 1, >$37 for 2); Economy Inn, 2400 S. Scatterfield, (765) > 642-9966, $39; $44 for 2 beds; Motel 6, 5810 S. >Scatterfield, (765) 642-9023; ($32 for 1, $38 for 2); > >Sponsor and event organizer: Sustainable Earth, Inc., a >501(c)3, not-for-profit membership organization committed >to profitable family farms through the development of >sustainable farming systems and community food systems. >Current projects include: The Small Farm Development >Project - building marketing infrastructure to support small >farm agriculture, CityFood - building a comprehensive, > sustainable community food system in a depressed >neighborhood of Indianapolis; Directory of Value-Added >Agriculture - a resource directory for crop and live-stock >strategies which support small farms and build communities; >Directory of Organic Agriculture -- linking consumers and >farmers with information on sources of organic and natural food. > Co-Sponsors: >Consortium for Sustainable Agriculture Research & Education, >North Central Regional Sustainable Agriculture Research & >Education program, and Farmweek Newspaper. Others to be added. > >Membership: Receive a quarterly newsletter-Sustainable Farming >News, discounts on special events and publications. >Enclosed is my membership for 12 months. >___Sustaining ($250) ___Supporting ($100) >___ Small Business ($60) ___ Family ($50) >___ Individual ($30) ___ Student ($15) > >Registration Fees: > If paid by 11/10/99 >Individual Family* >2 days ___40.00 ___55.00 >1 day ___25.00 ___40.00 > After 11/10/99 >2 days ___45.00 ___60.00 >1 day ___30.00 ___45.00 >Individual members of Sustainable Earth receive a >$10 discount. Those with family memberships receive >a $15 discount. Submit a membership fee now and > subtract the discount from your registration fees. >*Family registrations include all related >people living in the same household. >Names of all registrants: _________________ >____________________________________ >____________________________________ >____________________________________ >Address______________________________ >City______________________St._________ >Zip__________ Phone ( )______________ >email:________________________________ >Registration fees must be enclosed. Checks payable >to Sustainable Earth. Mail to Sustainable Earth, 100 >Georgton Ct., W. Lafayette, IN 47906 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- John Barclay (217) 384-5465 jbarclay@prairienet.org Champaign, IL, USA http://www.prairienet.org/~jbarclay/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 9 07:37:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13236 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA23631; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 06:37:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from charger.oldcity.dca.net (IDENT:root@charger.oldcity.dca.net [207.245.82.76]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA23555 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 06:36:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from postoffice.dca.net (postoffice.dca.net [204.183.80.65]) by charger.oldcity.dca.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13768 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:36:45 -0400 Received: from [208.0.39.227] (ppp-208-0-39-227.cust.oldcity.dca.net [208.0.39.227]) by postoffice.dca.net (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA10089 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:36:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: nwygant@postoffice.dca.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 07:39:30 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: nwygant@dca.net (Nancy Wygant) Subject: GE Food Campaign Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 663 Hello- I received this through the Northeast Food Systems list, have been in touch with the folks who are organizing the campaign, and wanted to pass it on to you all. >(please forward to friends) > >Join the Campaign to Oppose >Genetically "Engineered" Food > >Dear Friend, > >We are writing you to ask for your help in one of the most important >consumer campaigns ever: the campaign to ban genetically engineered foods >(usually abbreviated as GMO, genetically modified organisms). You are well >aware that GMO foods pose unprecedented dangers to human health and to the >very biosphere of the planet. Studies show GMO potatoes have caused >compromised immune systems and internal organ deterioration in rats and help >create dangerous new viruses. 44% of Monarch butterflies died after landing >on GMO corn and GMO crops in general are harmful to beneficial insects and >soil organisms. Pesticide and herbicide use increases with GMO crops and >farmers are being increasingly policed by the company who owns their GMO >seed "license". The Terminator seeds pose the threat of sterility of whole >ecosystems. Not even organic food is safe as cross-pollination spreads GMO >seeds. Switzerland recently ordered the destruction of tons of certified >organic American corn because genetic contamination was found. > >In Europe many countries have already banned GMO foods and others are >calling for strict labelling laws. Activists are pulling up GE crops >world-wide, including right here in Maine. Major supermarket chains in Great >Britain refuse to carry GMO foods, and large companies such as Unilever are >following suit. In America Gerber's just recently announced they would not >have any GMO ingredients in their products. > >As a result, a group of experienced Boston activists has decided to organize >a nation-wide campaign to convince food manufacturers and distributors to >pledge to use only non-GMO ingredients and to issue public statements in >support of a ban on GMO foods. We are calling ourselves Earth Action and >this is our mission statement: > >"Earth Action's mission is to take action to protect the earth and its >inhabitants against environmental assault. Our current focus is helping to >build the international movement against genetic engineering of crops and >other life forms, because of the extreme danger this activity represents to >the health and welfare of the world's people, animals and ecosystems." > >We don't expect that most of the target companies are going to be as easy to >convince as Gerber's (one letter from Greenpeace). Thus we would like to >enlist your help to take part in a weekly campaign to write letters or >e-mails or to make phone calls to the company CEOs. Enclosed you will find >a schedule with the phone numbers, addresses and e-mail addresses of the >companies we are targeting as well as a sample letter for you to use. What >we are asking you to do is to send 5-10 letters and/or e-mail messages a >week to the companies listed on the schedule, following the schedule exactly >as given. When companies hear from many consumers at once, they listen. >Please address your letters to the C.E.O. or decision-maker whose name is >given. > >This will only take a few minutes of your time every week but it will be >crucial to our success. Email and computer reproduction makes this task a >little less daunting than might appear at first sight: you merely need to >customize one letter for yourself and use it for most or all of the >letters/e-mails you send. You may use your organizational affiliation or >not as you wish. We are beginning with natural foods companies and moving >on to commercial companies afterwards. Our plan is to have the companies >receive as many letters as possible a week and then to call their C.E.O.s >and ask them to join the pledge campaign. > >Please write us as earthaction@cqs.com if you are interested in taking part >and wish us to have you on our mailing list as official volunteers, and >check off the enclosed questionnaire so that we know how many people we can >count on every week. Or you may take part as you wish as we will post the >info on the listserver. We do ask that as you send letters or email that >you post a summary to us of companies to whom you sent them and any >responses you get, so that we can keep track. Please also tell all your >friends and acquaintances and get them to join our campaign. > >We hope that many of you can take part in the campaign. This is a growing, >exciting and cutting edge movement to stop one of the greatest threats ever >facing our food supply and our planet. We are up against some of the most >powerful companies in the world - Monsanto and Novartis - with the full >support of the U.S. federal government, and we see the need to have a >coordinated movement in this country. The campaign comes at a critical >juncture - a huge percentage of our staple crops is already GMO and the >Grocery Manufacturers Assocation has started a pro-GMO campaign to convince >consumers it is safe. The future of the world's food supply - and perhaps >the world's ecosystems - hang in the balance. Please join us. > >Thanks, > >The Earth Action Coordinating Committee >Jason Boehk, founder, Protect Organic >Jon Campbell, health and environmental activist (617) 491-7646 >Madeleine Cousineau, Professor, Mt. Ida College >Detlev Koepke, Professor, Bridgewater State College (617) 522-9605 > >(Please cut and paste the reply form into a mail message to >earthaction@cqs.com) > >PS You can also join the campaign outside the US, sending emails to the US >corporate CEOs that you don't want to see their contaminated foodstuffs >entering your country. > >*************************************************************************** >Reply >___ Yes, I will participate fully in sending out letters and/or e-mail >messages every week. You can count on me. > >____Yes, I can participate but not regularly every week. > I will____________________________. > >____Yes, I am interested, but >____please send me more information on genetic engineering > (informative fact sheet available) >____call me and discuss this campaign further with me tel.___________. > >____No, I cannot participate now, but please call me or e-mail me at a >later date. I can participate starting ___________; please call at >________ or e-mail at_________. > >____ No, I cannot participate at all. However, I do know someone who might >be interested__________________. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 9 10:29:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13947 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03481; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:29:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zeus.starwon.com.au (zeus.starwon.com.au [203.15.243.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03402 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:28:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from locxvcym (gamma-21.per.starwon.net.au [203.15.243.161]) by zeus.starwon.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA10361; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 22:28:02 +0800 (WST) Message-ID: <000201bf1262$a5156140$a1f30fcb@locxvcym> Reply-To: "rpn" From: "rpn" To: , "Marcie Rosenzweig" References: Subject: Re:One stop Shop: Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:35:20 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 664 Generally, in Western Australia, the variation is: "I'm from the Government I'm here to help (myself to anything 1. that's yours 2. isn't tied down, or 3. whatever I can put my thieving, sticky fingers on)" Regards Robert P. Nederpelt "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington, speech of January 7, 1790 ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcie Rosenzweig To: Sent: Friday, October 08, 1999 9:53 PM Subject: Re:One stop Shop: > Art et al, > > Does the phrase "i'm from the government and I'm here to help" sound > familiar. To be pro-active on this, perhaps the Northeast group or > Wisconsin group should contact Parade with the names of some farms... > > Marcie > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 9 13:12:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA14944 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 13:12:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13440; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:11:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13343 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:10:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bessie.excite.com ([199.172.152.102]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19991009170955.TNXM26736.kuku@bessie.excite.com> for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:09:55 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Closing up season Message-Id: <939489006.19706.115@excite.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 10:10:06 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.47 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 665 We stopped CSA bags two weeks ago due to lack of food. We had 5 members this season and as far as I know 4 are not returning because 2 moved away, one did not pick up his bags very often (for me this was not a problem as this is one of my best friends and he felt verrrrry guilty about his lack of CSA participation) and one was a bater with a doctor and he just hasn't done any communication with us so i will assume that his family is not inerested in joining again. We had an OK season with the CSA. It was too small a group to generate much income for the farm but most of the members who signed up to be working members did come out and work -one woman came for 4 hours every week and did good work. Next year I will not have a working member option at half the price of the regular membership-everybody signed up foir that one and only 1/2 of that group actually did the work. All who didn't work felt bad but were not willing to hand over another $300. The drought hit us hard by late september and we had only green pears and half rotten peppers to hand out so we stopped pick ups. It seemed to us interest was waning as more and more often bags were not being picked up. We have picked up 2 new members for next season and will be doing a CSA presentation in November to a group of potential members. Our goal this year is to get about 40 to 50 members and form a core group. I feel we have been floundering without one but in the last 2 years we have done this we have yet to get anyone interested in forming one. It would be a large burden lifted to have the help. Speaking of help we now have an intern that works every friday for us. We were not looking for an intern but she contacted us and said she would work for food and college credit (she get 4 hours for her work here) and had housing. She's been great to have around, it's a lot of fun teaching her about farming and hearing her veiws on farming. I think we will do this intern thing again next season but get one to start working in the spring not the beginning of September. We have several beds tilled and planted and the wheat and rye are coming up in some. A few beds we plowed and have planted a clover plow down for chicken pasture. I was amazed at how hard it is to find cover crop seed around here-I guess the grain farmers don't do much cover cropping. We also have an ever growing falling garden full of lettuces, arugula, mizuna, radishes, turnips, beets, muystard greens, chard, kale, leeks, cukes and zukes (season extensuion expiriment-is working so far, the bees have found the cucabrits within seconds of taking the covers off in the late morning so we have fruit). We will be doing lots of root planting for our chickens this winter so they have some living food all winter. We are also getting ready to build a simple hoop house when ever it quits raining 9not that I am complaining about rain) Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 10 00:51:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA19932 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA24839; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:51:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA24539 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:44:40 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id dQEPa29021 (4571) for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7891b256.25317397@aol.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:44:07 EDT Subject: End of Season: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 666 This has been our most challenging season ever. This year's unusually cool and damp summer in western Washington caused most crops to be both late and smaller than previous seasons. Many local growers experienced multiple crop failures. Fortunately, the four who had CSA support are still in business today because of their community support. Asparagus, leeks and stir fry greens came in like gang busters by mid April. We were still getting hard frost by mid May which seriously stunted our early potato crop. We were able to grow chard and kale all summer. The only salad greens that produced were in hoop houses. Everything was at least 6 weeks behind schedule. So now that our CSA season is over, I have a 200 lbs of vine ripened tomatoes coming in each week. Boy are my friends and neighbors happy. This year we served 75 families with an equivalent of 65 full subscriptions. The majority of our subscribers were very understanding of our challenges. Like Jeff Herr, we distribute a weekly newsletter about the CSA and it really helps to bridge the communication gap between farmer and consumer. It also helped to give out the extra plant starts at the beginning of the season to subscribers. They were always amazed at how well our plants were producing compared to theirs. Still, I was always outside of my comfort zone this season because of disease and fertility challenges that kept cropping up. Fortunately, I discovered a silver bullet. Compost tea saved my bean crop by arresting the anthracnose mold that decimated the bean crops of three experienced growers on the island. Not only did I have 2 lbs of beans a week for my subscribers. I also took 40 -60 lbs of beans to the Farmer's Market to sell at a premium because I was the only one with beans. Three different varieties no less. For more info on this watch "Growing for Market," I submitted an article on the research and successes of this new technology for an ancient technique. Because of the long hours and difficult harvests this year, we decided to reduce next years subscriptions to 42 full equivalents. We are 3/4 full today and are sending out letters to our waiting list next week. A bonus for all CSAs on the island is an art display featured in the windows of our downtown stores depicting the history and presence of agriculture in our community. Complete with text directing people to the local CSAs. This year we learned that value added products support the farm much better than organic produce, meat and eggs. We are committing more time and energy to developing our mail order herbal body care and soap products because the profit margin is so much higher. We are still committed to feeding our neighbors. But we don't have to try to feed all of them. We do have to feed, house and educate our children. Our end of year surveys just went out last week. In the past, we have enjoyed an 80% return because we include a self addressed stamped envelope with every survey. I'll post a couple of examples after I get all of my honey spun and cover crops in. This has been a hard year, but a good year. Next year will be better. So the saying goes. Best regards, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 10 01:59:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA20212 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 01:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28712; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:58:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA28657 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:58:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.160]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id sa352266 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 23:52:07 -0600 Message-ID: <38002BE8.63F9D4ED@gilanet.com> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:02:56 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: GE Food Campaign References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 667 There's a great article starting on the front page of Thursday's Wall Street Journal about the uncertain fate of gmo crops. Check it out! They also say that Monsanto has agreed not to use "terminator" seed technology. Keep the prostests going--they are going to lose big on this one! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gial, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 10 03:29:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA20586 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA02992; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 02:28:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail5.globalserve.net (mail5.globalserve.net [209.90.128.165]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02923 for ; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 02:28:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alivewater.net (dialin102.vancouver.globalserve.net [209.47.102.166]) by mail5.globalserve.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA19553; Sun, 10 Oct 1999 03:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38004F7E.3F66E2E9@alivewater.net> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 00:34:09 -0800 From: Mikael Lund Reply-To: info@alivewater.net Organization: Nordic Living Water Systems X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: steffo@gilanet.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: GE Food Campaign/ We should celebrate this one References: <38002BE8.63F9D4ED@gilanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 668 Thank you for that piece of information. It made my heart sing and yearn for celebration with the people who helped this to come about. I am often addressing this issue with the managers of both so-called organic super markets and old fashioned supermarkets asking them if they know what these 'foods' are doing to our bodies. Let us get even more information on the table to share with our local community. A great thank you to all of these people from both my heart and a special thank you from my stomach! Warm Regards Mikael Lund Nordic Living Water Systems http://www.alivewater.net Stef Fuegi wrote: > There's a great article starting on the front page of Thursday's Wall > Street Journal about the uncertain fate of gmo crops. Check it out! > They also say that Monsanto has agreed not to use "terminator" seed > technology. Keep the prostests going--they are going to lose big on > this one! > > Stef Fuegi > Bear Creek Farms > Gial, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 12 22:56:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA09676 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA19860; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:56:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19677 for ; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.8.149.183] [209.8.149.183] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A5CB46800C6; Tue, 12 Oct 1999 23:00:27 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:54:03 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: USDA Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 669 I'm just reading my old mail so I'm about a week behind on this one but here's a USDA story for you. This spring, when we were running our subscription campaign, a woman that works at USDA gave us a call to inquire about subscribing. I went through the pitch, explained the program, the vegetables, the prices and the pick up spots. She wanted to sign up but the nearest pick up was inconvenient for her. I said- 'We deliver to offices if enough people subscribe. Why don't you put up a flier over at USDA and see if other people are interested?" "I couldn't do that," she said. "If my boss knew I was associated with a CSA, I'd get fired." She didn't join. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 08:06:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA15117 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 08:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA22289; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:05:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22212 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 07:05:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from doby.excite.com ([199.172.152.182]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19991013120435.LYDV2683.gigi@doby.excite.com>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:04:35 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: pastpat@thepoint.net, DBERGER@THF.COM, cvof@iquest.net, amrmeb@ime.net, lcano000@email.msn.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net Cc: nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, elfwood@erinet.com, LINSTUTTS@aol.com, rmlittle@infinet.com, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com, beierfarm@alltel.net, oeffa@iwaynet.net Subject: Fwd:Unlikely suspects Message-Id: <939816274.26549.303@excite.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 05:04:34 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.195 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 670 Guardian (London)Wednesday October 13, 1999 Monsanto herbicide 'could damage ecosystem' Paul Baldwin Environmental campaigners last night demanded a Europe-wide ban on the world's biggest selling weedkiller - the bulk of which is supplied by US biotechnology firm Monsanto - after warnings that it could could kill insects and spiders vital to agricultural ecosystems. The call from Friends of the Earth came after a leaked European Union draft document warned that the chemical gly-phosate, a key ingredient of Monsanto's glyphosate-based herbicide Roundup, could harm insects which act as a natural check on crop pests. The American multi-national also produces genetically engineered glyphosate immune seed crops designed to be used in conjunction with the weedkiller. Yesterday it was revealed that the confidential EU report concluded that glyphosate should not be approved for use in Europe, warning "harmful effects" on insects and spiders "cannot be excluded". Unrelated research in Sweden has also linked the chemical herbicide with the cancer known as non-Hodgkins lymphoma. A spokesman for Monsanto said the company "refutes absolutely" both claims about glyphosate, which he labelled the most benign herbicide in the world. ================= Guardian (London)Wednesday October 13, 1999 Biotech industry attacked Jane Martinson in New York International consumer activists accused the American biotechnology industry and US government of "bio-colonialism" yesterday and vowed to step up their campaign against genetically modified foods in the United States. In their first joint meeting, six international organisations accused the US government of backing big businesses such as Monsanto and Du Pont through its trade policy. The organisations made a pledge to campaign intensively against the biotechnology industry and the American government in the weeks leading up to the November meeting of the World Trade Organisation in Seattle. Sylvia Ribeiro, a campaigner for Rural Advancement Foundation International, said that a handful of companies were forcing farmers in poor countries to adopt their products. "We see this technology as a new bio-colonialism," she said at the meeting in New York yesterday. "A group of companies are imposing it and its consequences on many billions of people." Benedikt Haerlin, global co-ordinator on biotechnology for Greenpeace, said: "Monsanto is an ambassador for this technology, basically force feeding Europeans and not giving them the choice." Share prices for big biotechnology companies have fallen sharply in the past few months as European lobbies have led consumers to reject GM foods. Companies are terrified about the possible impact of the American consumer following the European example. Transplanted seeds are used in half of the soybean and a third of the corn crop in the US. These seeds are used in the manufacture of some of the country's best-known foodstuffs - from Heinz ketchup and the syrup in cola drinks to McDonalds' hamburger buns. In recent weeks Monsanto, one of the companies most affected by the European revolt, has called for those on both sides of the argument to attempt to reach some "common ground" on the use of the technology, which it claims has beneficial side-effects. Mr Haerlin indicated that such accommodation is some way off, however. He said that Greenpeace needed much more scientific evidence about the effects on the environment of injecting genes into crops - as well as on health - before it could agree to its use. "You should never say never," he said. However, he added that there was unlikely to be enough research "within the next five or 10 years". The organisations' strategy group includes Britain's Intermediate Technology Development Group as well as campaigners from South Africa and Asia. Patrick Mulvany, the food security policy adviser for the ITDG, said the campaigners would also reject the Amnerican government "dumping" any unwanted crop on the developing world. "It would be irresponsible and immoral simply to dump this stuff as food aid," he said. The ITDG is a member of the genetic engineering alliance, which is proposing that there should be a five-year freeze on the use of organisms which are genetically modified. The joint strategy group is planning a multi-pronged assault on the US consumer through a combination of press events and legal action. However, with a limited budget at its desposal it is unlikely to be able to launch a large advertising campaign. Mr Haerlin said his annual budget for the issue at Greenpeace was just $250,000. ========= Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 10:08:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16877 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 10:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02235; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:08:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA02149 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:08:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910131408.JAA02149@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 24354 invoked from network); 13 Oct 1999 14:07:54 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as002-219.iquest.net (209.43.49.219) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 13 Oct 1999 14:07:54 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Leigh Hauter From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: USDA Cc: CSA list Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 671 What division of USDA? At 10:54 PM 10/12/99 -0400, Leigh Hauter wrote: >I'm just reading my old mail so I'm about a week behind on this one but >here's a USDA story for you. > >This spring, when we were running our subscription campaign, a woman that >works at USDA gave us a call to inquire about subscribing. I went through >the pitch, explained the program, the vegetables, the prices and the pick >up spots. > >She wanted to sign up but the nearest pick up was inconvenient for her. I >said- > >'We deliver to offices if enough people subscribe. Why don't you put up a >flier over at USDA and see if other people are interested?" > >"I couldn't do that," she said. "If my boss knew I was associated with a >CSA, I'd get fired." > >She didn't join. > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 13:34:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22010 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA28375; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:33:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dinonet1.dinonet.it (ip84.dinonet.it [194.21.93.84]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA28020 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:30:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lbetti ([194.21.93.117]) by dinonet1.dinonet.it (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 9-31337L) with ESMTP id AAA140 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:29:51 +0200 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991013183436.016a95b0@mail.dinonet.it> X-Sender: lbetti@mail.dinonet.it (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:37:20 +0200 To: CSA list From: Gabriele Betti Subject: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 672 Hi, I was thinking about medical herbs internet sale. Do any of you have experiences about it? Do you know where to start from? Thanks, Gabriele Betti From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 13:51:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22558 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA29856; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:50:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29770 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:50:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ENTZFETS; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:49:26 EDT To: lbetti@dinonet.it Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:44:00 -0400 Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? Message-ID: <19991013.134422.-143789.1.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5,7-13 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 673 I'd like to know as well. The obvious ones are Golden Seal, Echinecea, Ginsing. Some places have starts of Valerian, Wormwood, Soloman's Seal, etc. Would anyone be intersted in a swap of interesting herb starts in the Spring? Betsy Hultin Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 14:19:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23303 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA02495; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:19:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kcims.metrokc.gov (kcims.metrokc.gov [146.129.177.168]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01718 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:10:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: by kcims.metrokc.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <4WS72WPT>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:10:10 -0700 Message-ID: <2E7728EB3EC0D211BEC800805FA7E0126A2E10@kcmail2.metrokc.gov> From: "Kantor, Sylvia" To: CSA list , "'Gabriele Betti'" Subject: RE: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 11:10:06 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 674 Hi Gabriele! You may find this article helpful. http://king.wsu.edu/PDFs/HerbMarketingFS.pdf Ciao, Sylvia ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sylvia Kantor Agriculture Information Coordinator WSU Cooperative Extension, King County 700 Fifth Ave, Suite 3700 Seattle, WA 98104-5037 (206)205-6410 mailto:sylvia.kantor@metrokc.gov Visit the agriculture web page at http://king.wsu.edu/Ag/Agindex.htm Everybody gets so much information all day long that they lose their common sense. --Gertrude Stein > ---------- > From: Gabriele Betti[SMTP:lbetti@dinonet.it] > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 9:37 AM > To: CSA list > Subject: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? > > Hi, > I was thinking about medical herbs internet sale. > Do any of you have experiences about it? > Do you know where to start from? > Thanks, > Gabriele Betti > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 14:38:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23798 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 14:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04585; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:38:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04406 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 13:37:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.160]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id ha363201 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:30:57 -0600 Message-ID: <3804D24F.2F943517@gilanet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:41:48 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA list Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? References: <4.2.0.58.19991013183436.016a95b0@mail.dinonet.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 675 I have a good friend who has an herbal medicine shop and maintains a web site and links to other web sites related to medicinal herbs. I haven't had time to check out all the sites, but I hope you may find something helpful there. Here's the url: http://www.zianet.com/desertbloom/ Good luck! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 16:26:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25992 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15313; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:24:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15122 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:22:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA03867; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:21:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1d-139.ix.netcom.com(209.110.251.139) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003332; Wed Oct 13 15:19:36 1999 Message-ID: <000c01bf15b8$67d2d7a0$8bfb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , "B H" Cc: Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:20:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 -----Original Message----- From: B H To: lbetti@dinonet.it Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 1:50 PM Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? >I'd like to know as well. > >The obvious ones are Golden Seal, Echinecea, Ginsing. > >Some places have starts of Valerian, Wormwood, Soloman's Seal, etc. > >Would anyone be intersted in a swap of interesting herb starts in the >Spring? > > Betsy Hultin > Glastonbury Farm, East Tennessee > http://www.agdomain.com/sites/home.jsp?site=13724 > GOaT MILK? http://www.mazdak.com/goats/goatdex.htm >Goat Related Stuff,Farm Electronics,Community Sustained Agriculture(CSA) > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 17:01:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26768 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA18754; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:01:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pimout7-int.prodigy.net (pimout7-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.180]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA18678 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (MINNB404-30.splitrock.net [209.254.89.122]) by pimout7-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA131700 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:01:01 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01bf15bd$f3197f80$7a59fed1@pavilion> From: "Nicholas A Westcott" To: Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:59:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF1593.EE56B960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 677 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF1593.EE56B960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello CSA farmers, I am the college student,who about one month ago, sent out several = questions for my CSA industry analysis. Well, I am back to ask a few = more. OK? How do you determine your CSA's share price? What margins do you include in your share pricing? What percentage of profitability do you seek? What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over 1998 = shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? Thanks Much! Nick Westcott ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF1593.EE56B960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello CSA farmers,
     
    I am the college student,who about one month ago, = sent out=20 several questions for my CSA industry analysis.  Well, I am back to = ask a=20 few more. OK?
     
    How do you determine your CSA's share = price?
    What margins do you include in your share=20 pricing?
    What percentage of profitability do you = seek?
    What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 = shares have=20 over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000?
     
    Thanks Much!
    Nick Westcott
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BF1593.EE56B960-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 17:15:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27077 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA20194; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:15:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA20118 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:14:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gilanet.com (gilanet.com [207.66.34.160]) by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id ta363655 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:08:37 -0600 Message-ID: <3804F725.6F723BA2@gilanet.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 15:19:32 -0600 From: Stef Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gabriele Betti CC: CSA list Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? References: <4.2.0.58.19991013183436.016a95b0@mail.dinonet.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 678 We are still working on the seed list we promised to send out (sorry!) but we definitely do have echinacea seeds available for sale, though until the list is done I can say what else or how much we have. We'll have other medicinal herbs on there as well. I will be sending the list to all who request it, hopefully within 2 weeks. Thanks! Stef Fuegi Bear Creek Farms Gila, NM From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 17:29:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27320 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21451; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:28:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21198 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 16:26:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id <4QTH15S0>; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:26:29 -0400 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: "'CSA-L@prairienet.org'" Cc: Andy Clark Subject: One-stop PLEASE STOP! calling Parade Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:26:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 679 Greetings CSA-L: Please spread the word, and please save the movement a great opportunity. There are CSAs from around the country calling/contacting Parade magazine about the possible story. THE EDITOR SAYS THIS WILL KILL THE ARTICLE!!!! PLEASE STOP CONTACTING PARADE MAGAZINE! This is Andy Clark, Sustainable Agriculture Network, SARE program, just subscribed and posting my first message. I will be working on the national database of CSA farms, ONLY IF it will still be needed. Please heed this plea. IF anyone has recent listings of CSA farms, please e-mail them to me (aclark@nal.usda.gov). I'll put them to good use unless I hear that the story is dead. Andy Andy Clark, SAN Coordinator National Agricultural Library, Room 304 10301 Baltimore Ave. Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 (301) 504-6425; (301) 504-6409 (fax) san@nal.usda.gov http://www.sare.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 13 20:10:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29835 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA06430; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:10:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA06340 for ; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 19:09:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [198.69.131.213] [198.69.131.213] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0A6470128; Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:15:34 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="============_-1272262744==_ma============" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000b01bf15bd$f3197f80$7a59fed1@pavilion> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:09:09 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 680 --============_-1272262744==_ma============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If people answer Nick's questions would you do it to the entire list. I'd like to hear other people's answers. I'll answer when I have time. Leigh >Hello CSA farmers, > >I am the college student,who about one month ago, sent out several >questions for my CSA industry analysis. Well, I am back to ask a few >more. OK? > >How do you determine your CSA's share price? >What margins do you include in your share pricing? >What percentage of profitability do you seek? >What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over 1998 >shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? > >Thanks Much! >Nick Westcott > --============_-1272262744==_ma============ Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" If people answer Nick's questions would you do it to the entire list. I'd like to hear other people's answers. I'll answer when I have time. Leigh Hello CSA farmers, I am the college student,who about one month ago, sent out several questions for my CSA industry analysis. Well, I am back to ask a few more. OK? How do you determine your CSA's share price? What margins do you include in your share pricing? What percentage of profitability do you seek? What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? Thanks Much! Nick Westcott --============_-1272262744==_ma============-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 08:40:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07132 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA24192; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:40:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA23745 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:33:43 -0500 (CDT) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dMTEa29648 (4440) for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.6adfdf11.25372781@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:33:05 EDT Subject: Fwd: Re: CSA To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.6adfdf11.25372781_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 681 --part1_0.6adfdf11.25372781_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <> We determine share price by deciding on a manageable number of shares (this=20 year we had 4 growers, and went with 45 shares), determining the budget for=20 growing food for 45 shares (materials, labor, etc.) , then divide the budget= =20 total by 45. We juggle figures a little until we come up with prices for=20 working shares and non-working shares. (It's not an exact science, really.=20 Sometimes a share price is finally decided, for example, if the number is=20 evenly divisible by 3=97the number of installment payments our members make.= ) We do not seek a profit in our CSA. We do, however, figure in between $500=20 and $1000 extra in the budget for emergencies. So far, in our 3 years, we=20 have never had a surplus of funds at the close of the season. Our CSA members have seen a steady price decrease of about 10% since 1997. I= n=20 1999, working shares were $390 (plus 12 hours total of labor) and non-workin= g=20 shares were $450. In the future, I think we'll adjust our membership size to= =20 keep our rates reasonable. (Theoretically, it shouldn't take too much of an=20 increase in budget to produce 10 more shares than our current total, but=20 adding those 10 shares brings each share price down considerably.) This=20 year's prices seemed to be much less difficult for members to manage. =97Heidi R. Lewis Community Supported ORganic Farm Coalition Fredericksburg, VA http://members.aol.com/csofc1999/index.htm --part1_0.6adfdf11.25372781_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: HowdiHeidi@aol.com From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Full-name: HowdiHeidi Message-ID: <0.74e957f9.253651f9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 17:22:01 EDT Subject: Re: CSA To: WESTCOTT@prodigy.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 In a message dated 10/13/99 4:02:00 PM, you wrote: <> We determine share price by deciding on a manageable number of shares (this=20 year we had 4 growers, and went with 45 shares), determining the budget for=20 growing food for 45 shares (materials, labor, etc.) , then divide the budget= =20 total by 45. We juggle figures a little until we come up with prices for=20 working shares and non-working shares. (It's not an exact science, really.=20 Sometimes a share price is finally decided, for example, if the number is=20 evenly divisible by 3=97the number of installment payments our members make.= ) We do not seek a profit in our CSA. We do, however, figure in between $500=20 and $1000 extra in the budget for emergencies. So far, in our 3 years, we=20 have never had a surplus of funds at the close of the season. Our CSA members have seen a steady price decrease of about 10% since 1997. I= n=20 1999, working shares were $390 (plus 12 hours total of labor) and non-workin= g=20 shares were $450. In the future, I think we'll adjust our membership size to= =20 keep our rates reasonable. (Theoretically, it shouldn't take too much of an=20 increase in budget to produce 10 more shares than our current total, but=20 adding those 10 shares brings each share price down considerably.) This=20 year's prices seemed to be much less difficult for members to manage. =97Heidi R. Lewis Community Supported ORganic Farm Coalition Fredericksburg, VA http://members.aol.com/csofc1999/index.htm --part1_0.6adfdf11.25372781_boundary-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 08:47:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07204 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA24820; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:46:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lexington.ioa.net (IDENT:root@lexington.ioa.net [208.131.128.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24083 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:38:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ioa.com (ppp498.arden.dialup.ioa.com [208.133.47.189]) by lexington.ioa.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29659; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:38:25 -0400 Message-ID: <3805D0BE.DFA997DF@ioa.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 07:48:37 -0500 From: Chris Sawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leigh Hauter CC: CSA list Subject: Re: Questions? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 682 > > How do you determine your CSA's share price? A list like this, and searching the net, there are no csa operations that I would model after here, in western NC > > What margins do you include in your share pricing? As much as I can get. > > What percentage of profitability do you seek? This farm will probably not be profitable on CSA until I have 100+ members paying $450.00 > > What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? New Farm, selling wholesale now, look at wholesale organic prices, through our co-op marketing company. Carolina Organic Growers, a cooperative. Chris Sawyer Jake's Farm 99 Brown Lynch Road Candler NC 28715 > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 09:22:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07562 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27755; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:22:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27332 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:16:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA27420; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:15:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027142; Thu Oct 14 08:14:20 1999 Message-ID: <009001bf1646$2d7f4320$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Nicholas A Westcott" , Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:15:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_008D_01BF1624.A4900980" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 683 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BF1624.A4900980 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas A Westcott To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:01 PM =20 =20 Hello CSA farmers, =20 I am the college student,who about one month ago, sent out several = questions for my CSA industry analysis. Well, I am back to ask a few = more. OK? =20 How do you determine your CSA's share price? What margins do you include in your share pricing? What percentage of profitability do you seek? What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over = 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? =20 Thanks Much! Nick Westcott =20 ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BF1624.A4900980 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
              &nbs= p;            = ;            =              =
    -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 Nicholas A Westcott <WESTCOTT@prodigy.net>
    T= o:=20 CSA-L@prairienet.org = <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:01 PM

    Hello CSA farmers,
     
    I am the college student,who about one month = ago, sent out=20 several questions for my CSA industry analysis.  Well, I am = back to ask=20 a few more. OK?
     
    How do you determine your CSA's share = price?
    What margins do you include in your share=20 pricing?
    What percentage of profitability do you = seek?
    What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 = shares=20 have over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for = 2000?
     
    Thanks Much!
    Nick Westcott
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01BF1624.A4900980-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 09:49:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07933 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA00338; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:49:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29790 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:43:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA01904 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:42:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000657; Thu Oct 14 08:37:31 1999 Message-ID: <009a01bf1649$6b0cfc20$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Business consultant Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:38:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 Hi CSA list, This thread about share price, profitability etc along with one fellows comment that he did not think he'd be profitable until 100+ members at $450(this figure as been thrown around our place as well, my comment was the work required for 100 members as opposed to our 37 to result in 45,000 did not seem a reasonable "profit" for 3 people, plus probably some hired help). So my question is if you had a professional business consultant arrive at your door what would you ask? Another question: We have discussed this before: The CSA as the only farm business vs. CSA that is only one aspect of the farm. We are leaning very heavily to the later. And one of the other business aspects we'd like to lean to is agrotourism, no amusement park atmosphere, just a nice farmy atmosphere which people pay to enjoy. I think in our locale there is good potential for this, here are some of our thoughts in no particular order: Rent the farm for events, bed and breakfast, school and group tours, and suggestions? We have already dabbled in some we had one event it went well as far as we were concerned the renter wished more of his invited (business) guests had come. We gave a horse drawn hayride around, the people who did attend loved it. Some of you may ask whats with all this weird stuff? Well our primary goal is to save our land as farm land in order to do that for now and the future we have to find a way to support it. And I must add in a tasteful way, retaining the beautiful agriculture look. We are 85 acres in an ever increasingly developed area so in a double edged sword sort of way the location in "perfect"? We are becoming an oddity and we think there is a market for it. You might say we need to "value add" without actually manufacturing anything ie jam. So any suggestions? This may also help our student see that CSA is a very complicated thing. Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 09:56:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08065 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA01149; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:56:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00054 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:45:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA02319; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:43:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001369; Thu Oct 14 08:40:21 1999 Message-ID: <00ab01bf1649$d0688e40$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Dan Hook" , "Nicholas A Westcott" , Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:41:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BF1628.47702CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 685 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BF1628.47702CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry about the previous post with nothing in it but the below message. = I was trying to post a message which I think I accomplised but before = that the empty one came through. I have no mouse and while improving on = keyboard use I am not perfect at it. Thanks Beth -----Original Message----- From: Dan Hook To: Nicholas A Westcott ; CSA-L@prairienet.org = Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:16 AM Subject: Re:=20 =20 =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Nicholas A Westcott To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:01 PM =20 =20 Hello CSA farmers, =20 I am the college student,who about one month ago, sent out = several questions for my CSA industry analysis. Well, I am back to ask = a few more. OK? =20 How do you determine your CSA's share price? What margins do you include in your share pricing? What percentage of profitability do you seek? What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have = over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? =20 Thanks Much! Nick Westcott =20 ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BF1628.47702CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Sorry about the previous post with = nothing in it=20 but the below message.  I was trying to post a message which I = think I=20 accomplised but before that the empty one came through.  I have no = mouse=20 and while improving on keyboard use I am not perfect at it.  = Thanks =20 Beth
    -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 Dan Hook <guldann@ix.netcom.com>
    To:=20 Nicholas A Westcott <WESTCOTT@prodigy.net>; = CSA-L@prairienet.org <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 Thursday, October 14, 1999 9:16 AM
    Subject: Re:=20

              &nbs= p;            = ;            =              =
    -----Original=20 Message-----
    From: Nicholas A Westcott <WESTCOTT@prodigy.net>
    T= o:=20 CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 Wednesday, October 13, 1999 5:01 PM

    Hello CSA = farmers,
     
    I am the college student,who about one month = ago, sent=20 out several questions for my CSA industry analysis.  Well, = I am=20 back to ask a few more. OK?
     
    How do you determine your CSA's share=20 price?
    What margins do you include in your share=20 pricing?
    What percentage of profitability do you=20 seek?
    What percentage price increase, if any, did = 1999=20 shares have over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for=20 2000?
     
    Thanks Much!
    Nick Westcott
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01BF1628.47702CE0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 10:22:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08921 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03943; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:21:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sirocco.cc.mcgill.ca (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03380 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:15:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lansend.cc.mcgill.ca (lansend.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.37.4]) by sirocco.cc.mcgill.ca (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA16921 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199910141415.KAA16921@sirocco.cc.mcgill.ca> Received: by MicroMailer 3.72 (.Lan.McGill.CA) on Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:15:07 -0400 From: "Dr. Laurie Baker" Organization: Macdonald Campus of McGill To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:14:46 EST5EDT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Share Price X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Dr. Laurie Baker" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 686 As a comment on the message from HowdiHeidi@aol.com might I refer you to the web site shown below where you can download an excel model that we (at McGill University, Montreal, Canada) have developed to address this issue of share pricing. The model includes 5 budget sheets that progressively move you from cash cost recovery to full cost recovery and calculates your breakeven share price along the way. http://www.agrenv.mcgill.ca/agrecon/gradst/Sacha.htm Page down to the instruction to * For a copy of our farm budget software (zipped): please click here Comments welcome Laurie Baker Assistant Professor Department of Agricultural Economics McGill University, Macdonald Campus 21,111 Lakeshore Road Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Quebec H9X 3V9 Tel: (514) 398-7823 Fax: (514) 398-8130 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 11:52:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11962 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 11:52:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13114; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:52:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12514 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 10:46:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.161] (216-224-145-239.stk.jps.net [216.224.145.239]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA12729; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000b01bf15bd$f3197f80$7a59fed1@pavilion> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:52:37 -0800 To: "Nicholas A Westcott" From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Determining share price Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 687 Dear Nick, We use the same prices at the local framers' markets as we do in our shares, but shareholders get "first dibs" on the veggies. For instance, the shareholders will get strawberries and snowpeas but the market may not. We use our budget to determine commodity price, and sanity check that with local market prices. We project what will be in the share each week of the season, add all weeks together and get the season price. The process is somewhat automated. The budget form (now available in our book Market Farm Forms-Spreadsheet Templates for Planning and Tracking Information on Diversified Market Farms) flows into a pricing calculator. The pricing calculator looks at the return needed from each unit of land in order to meet the budget. It takes into account double-cropped (or triple-cropped) units, considers yield, and allows for any percentage margin. We used 15%. The number at the "bottomline" of the pricing calculator is then sanity-checked against the local supermarket and farmers' market. This process allows each farm to make a decision on every crop planned to see if it's economically feasible. Obviously, if you need $8.00/lb for tomatoes to cover your costs, they'd better be something very special or the next farm selling them for $.80 will eat your lunch. How much of each crop goes into a share is calculated in another form based on USDA standard yield data. The form contains the yield data per 100' of row or square foot of bed for 33 crops. Then looks at the servings per unit (ie head, bunch, lb) to tell you how many shares you can fill based on the number of folks you decide your share is feeding. The CSA Share Amounts and Pricing form lets you input the crop, number of weeks available, and the unit (ie head, bunch, lb) and the pricing from the above form. It calculates the the total price for the season for that crop then totals all crops for the season. It allows you to add packing labor if you pre-pack your boxes, then calculates the share price for the season. The bottomline to all this is that our pricing reflects our costs. Our increases from year to year reflect the increased costs. Our budget is open to our shareholders. Hope this helps, Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 13:18:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13725 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21221; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:17:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20656 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:11:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.8.149.225] [198.69.131.208] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A02626C0128; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:17:26 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:10:26 -0400 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Fwd: Re: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 688 >Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:23:02 -0700 (PDT) >From: Brad Klepetka Brad couldn't post this (?) and asked me to forward it. lh (I would like to see the discussion on the list). >i too am interested in the responses, but am concerned about the volume of >email this will generate. not to be a wet blanket, but would it be more >efficient if we requested that Nick post a summary of his results to the >list. That way if there are people who are not interested in the results >they have only one(few) messages to delete instead of all responses. > >Of course this runs the risk of limiting discussion, but i think the >discussion would still occur once the summary is posted. > >my $0.02 worth, > >brad. >Brad Klepetka > >206/685-6893 University of Washington >206/543-3041 (fax) Department of Zoology > 24 Kincaid Hall > Box 351800 > Seattle, WA 98l95-1800 > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 13:24:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13929 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21864; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:24:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from agency6.state.ky.us (agency6.state.ky.us [162.114.120.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20900 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 12:13:36 -0500 (CDT) From: Anna.Sidebottom@kyagr.com Received: by agency6.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <46CAN605>; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:12:32 -0400 Message-ID: <6E56C6C59E63D311A0D800805F6FEDCDAC3632@agency10.state.ky.us> To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Non-organic CSAs Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 13:11:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 689 Glad to hear about all the successes for this year's growing season! I have had several calls from folks interested in starting a CSA, however not necessarily organic. One particular grower would like to contact some CSA's personally. He does not have a computer so I am acting as a middle "man". My request to the readers of the list is to notify me if you didn't mind this grower contact you. Thanks for all the help! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anna M. Sidebottom Marketing Specialist Kentucky Department of Agriculture Division for Value-Added Horticulture & Aquaculture 500 Mero Street, 7th Floor Frankfort, KY 40601 (502) 564-6676 ext. 263 Fax: (502) 564-2133 E-mail: anna.sidebottom@kyagr.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 15:07:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15601 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02227; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:07:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lexington.ioa.net (IDENT:root@lexington.ioa.net [208.131.128.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01687 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:01:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ioa.com (ppp481.arden.dialup.ioa.com [208.133.47.172]) by lexington.ioa.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA32309 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:00:51 -0400 Message-ID: <38062A5B.A0217FE@ioa.com> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:09:17 -0500 From: Chris Sawyer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Business consultant References: <009a01bf1649$6b0cfc20$d4f86ed1@dan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 690 Dan Hook wrote: > Hi CSA list, This thread about share price, profitability etc along with one > fellows comment that he did not think he'd be profitable until 100+ members > at $450(this figure as been thrown around our place as well, my comment was > the work required for 100 members as opposed to our 37 to result in 45,000 > did not seem a reasonable "profit" for 3 people, plus probably some hired > help). Well, being as I am the fellow who made this comment, I own 11 acres, 4.22 certified for organic production, some woods, and a good creek. This figure as Dan mentions further in his letter, would only be a portion of the income from the future business plan. As I mentioned we also will sell wholesale, and hopefully another already suggested idea, we too, are planning on agritourism to supplement the staff salary. A corn maze.....private picnics, and as a former restaurant owner, perhaps a sat or sun farm fireside dinner....maybe some music, bluegrass is prevelant here....In any case diservication seems to be the answer to surviving, wish I had 85 acres, but I am in town practically...15 minutes from downtown and only five minutes from the retail-wholesale farmers market. As they say in the real estate business, location location location. I hope this pays off for us. We have two full time employees, are building a new barn with canning kitchen, and a greenhouse to extend salad sales till Christmas... I call CSA membership, a subscription, have yet to get the first member, although I had many "regular" customers last year who return faithfully to get what they needed of our "stuff" every week. Four pick-ur-own regulars, and one commune who provided harvest labor every week, in exchange for some "free" food.....We proved able to supply a huge varitety of veggies...melons..and in the future lots of berries...I feel the more we do the easier the labor....and the better to supply funds for more mechanization, and combining purchasing efforts with surrounding certified operations, should in the future reduce costs...as we all become more "connected and cooperative". I want to limit the general public to times I choose, and the plan so far is by invitation only, to folks we meet at tailgate, school, teenager in the house who keeps us active in the community, as far a letting just anyone come pick, I don't think it such a hot idea.....I surely don't want my campsites open to just anyone who knocks...hope the future of this all lies in more and more internet savvy and use. Chris Jake's Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 15:50:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16856 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA06528; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05991 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:43:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA00758; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:43:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000745; Thu Oct 14 14:42:55 1999 Message-ID: <011d01bf167c$7872abc0$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "CSA list" , "Leigh Hauter" Subject: Re: Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:44:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 691 I have been subscribed to this list for a year + and an over abudance of mail has never been a problem :). In fact I love it when a question generates "lots" of mail. So I vote for just sending to the list. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Leigh Hauter To: CSA list Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 1:11 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: >>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 09:23:02 -0700 (PDT) >>From: Brad Klepetka >Brad couldn't post this (?) and asked me to forward it. lh (I would like to >see the discussion on the list). > > >>i too am interested in the responses, but am concerned about the volume of >>email this will generate. not to be a wet blanket, but would it be more >>efficient if we requested that Nick post a summary of his results to the >>list. That way if there are people who are not interested in the results >>they have only one(few) messages to delete instead of all responses. >> >>Of course this runs the risk of limiting discussion, but i think the >>discussion would still occur once the summary is posted. >> >>my $0.02 worth, >> >>brad. > >>Brad Klepetka >> >>206/685-6893 University of Washington >>206/543-3041 (fax) Department of Zoology >> 24 Kincaid Hall >> Box 351800 >> Seattle, WA 98l95-1800 >> > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 15:58:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA17011 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07303; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:57:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06725 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:51:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA01559; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 14:51:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001546; Thu Oct 14 14:50:53 1999 Message-ID: <012201bf167d$953ba3a0$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: , Subject: Re: Non-organic CSAs Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:51:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 692 I think you should just tell your friend to go ahead and jump in. CSA is a marketing tool, not a growing tool. He should be advised that as with any product he has to have clients/members that want it. Some potential members would be customers of conventional farmers market/farm stands. Also just an observation while many CSA are pesticide free, they are uncertified. Thats us. Someday when time is more on our side (can you say off farm job) we may pursue certification. But with a intimate (community) of members certification is really unnecessary. I read similar sentiments in Sharing the Harvest by E. Henderson. Just my 2 cents Beth -----Original Message----- From: Anna.Sidebottom@kyagr.com To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 1:18 PM Subject: Non-organic CSAs >Glad to hear about all the successes for this year's growing season! > >I have had several calls from folks interested in starting a CSA, however >not necessarily organic. One particular grower would like to contact some >CSA's personally. He does not have a computer so I am acting as a middle >"man". > >My request to the readers of the list is to notify me if you didn't mind >this grower contact you. > >Thanks for all the help! > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Anna M. Sidebottom >Marketing Specialist >Kentucky Department of Agriculture >Division for Value-Added Horticulture & Aquaculture >500 Mero Street, 7th Floor >Frankfort, KY 40601 >(502) 564-6676 ext. 263 >Fax: (502) 564-2133 >E-mail: anna.sidebottom@kyagr.com >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 16:35:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17886 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA10735; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:34:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10258 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:29:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.145]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA457; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:26:52 -0400 Message-ID: <002b01bf1685$1af52c80$91c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" , "Gabriele Betti" References: <4.2.0.58.19991013183436.016a95b0@mail.dinonet.it> Subject: Re: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:45:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 693 we have a company called monteagle herb farms here in ontario that seem to be doing well. you could try them for some feedback & info-they are very webfriendly & theeir site is easy to follow. peter is the guy to speak to, & their herbalist will answer questions! www.taoent.bancon.net/monteagle email : monteagle@bancom.net they should help & good luck! zalia & bob bh organic farm ----- Original Message ----- From: Gabriele Betti To: CSA list Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 12:37 PM Subject: medical herbs, where to find seeds else? > Hi, > I was thinking about medical herbs internet sale. > Do any of you have experiences about it? > Do you know where to start from? > Thanks, > Gabriele Betti > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 17:47:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19374 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA18528; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:45:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11170 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:39:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.145]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA445; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:37:24 -0400 Message-ID: <006a01bf1686$93610120$91c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "Chris Sawyer" , "Leigh Hauter" Cc: "CSA list" References: <3805D0BE.DFA997DF@ioa.com> Subject: Re: Questions? Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:56:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 694 as much as i can get? well how about as much as people are willing to pay for fresh healthy organic food! margins seperate the bankrupcies from the successes, BUT, they are also the difference between choosing your farm over another-if there is one. we tend to cover costs first, materials, seed emergencies, tools, water costs etc-all the growing & of course the staff emerg. when no-one wants to fill their work share or is unable. as a new farm, try focusing on some of the ways to cut costs & value-adding instead of thinking of the overwhelming 100 people at $450. if we charged that here, we would be clientless in 1 season. sorry to rant! wholesale is also something we stopped a long time ago-charge the going rates-make your money-enough to survive as a farmer if that is what you really want & the rest will follow-trust me:) good luck & by all means succeed Z&B bh organic farm & sugarbush zone5 ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Sawyer To: Leigh Hauter Cc: CSA list Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 8:48 AM Subject: Re: Questions? > > > > > > > > How do you determine your CSA's share price? > > A list like this, and searching the net, there are no csa operations that I would model after here, in western NC > > > > > What margins do you include in your share pricing? > > As much as I can get. > > > > > What percentage of profitability do you seek? > > This farm will probably not be profitable on CSA until I have 100+ members paying $450.00 > > > > > What percentage price increase, if any, did 1999 shares have over 1998 shares, and what increase do you see for 2000? > > New Farm, selling wholesale now, look at wholesale organic prices, through our co-op marketing company. Carolina Organic Growers, a cooperative. > > Chris Sawyer > Jake's Farm > 99 Brown Lynch Road > Candler NC 28715 > > > > > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 17:51:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19419 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19093; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:50:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12216 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 15:48:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.145]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA421; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:46:32 -0400 Message-ID: <008701bf1687$da464ea0$91c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "Nicholas A Westcott" , "Marcie Rosenzweig" Cc: References: Subject: Re: Determining share price Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:05:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 695 how do we get a copy of the book? thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcie Rosenzweig To: Nicholas A Westcott Cc: Sent: Thursday, October 14, 1999 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Determining share price > Dear Nick, > > We use the same prices at the local framers' markets as we do in our > shares, but shareholders get "first dibs" on the veggies. For instance, > the shareholders will get strawberries and snowpeas but the market may not. > > We use our budget to determine commodity price, and sanity check that with > local market prices. We project what will be in the share each week of the > season, add all weeks together and get the season price. > > The process is somewhat automated. The budget form (now available in our > book Market Farm Forms-Spreadsheet Templates for Planning and Tracking > Information on Diversified Market Farms) flows into a pricing calculator. > The pricing calculator looks at the return needed from each unit of land in > order to meet the budget. It takes into account double-cropped (or > triple-cropped) units, considers yield, and allows for any percentage > margin. We used 15%. The number at the "bottomline" of the pricing > calculator is then sanity-checked against the local supermarket and > farmers' market. > > This process allows each farm to make a decision on every crop planned to > see if it's economically feasible. Obviously, if you need $8.00/lb for > tomatoes to cover your costs, they'd better be something very special or > the next farm selling them for $.80 will eat your lunch. > > How much of each crop goes into a share is calculated in another form based > on USDA standard yield data. The form contains the yield data per 100' of > row or square foot of bed for 33 crops. Then looks at the servings per > unit (ie head, bunch, lb) to tell you how many shares you can fill based on > the number of folks you decide your share is feeding. > > The CSA Share Amounts and Pricing form lets you input the crop, number of > weeks available, and the unit (ie head, bunch, lb) and the pricing from the > above form. It calculates the the total price for the season for that crop > then totals all crops for the season. It allows you to add packing labor > if you pre-pack your boxes, then calculates the share price for the season. > > The bottomline to all this is that our pricing reflects our costs. Our > increases from year to year reflect the increased costs. Our budget is > open to our shareholders. > > Hope this helps, > > Marcie A. Rosenzweig > Full Circle Organic Farm > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 17:57:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19495 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19647; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:57:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13244 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:00:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.145]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA445 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 16:58:37 -0400 Message-ID: <00a901bf1689$8a487c00$91c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: organic or not Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:17:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 696 i truly believe that growing comes down to trust. the people in our area know we are organic, but even before being certified for other purposes-processing etc. they knew we grew organically. the trust that grows between grower & client is never to be taken lightly though. if u grow organically, let your clients know-if not, PLEASE let them know. we can only make informed choices if we know what we are choosing from. thanks for listening to my babble. while i have your attention- we r looking for a few good people for our zone 5 csa & year round sugarbush & greenhouse !!! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 14 18:35:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20092 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA23994; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:35:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23565 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:29:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA23171; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 17:28:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023009; Thu Oct 14 17:28:26 1999 Message-ID: <019501bf1693$97fe6b20$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: organic or not Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 18:29:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 697 Hi Robert, Also in zone 5. We also do a bit of Maple Sugaring. Last year was our first year. Little 6x2 evaporator. Made 10 gallons. We have to off farm for most of the trees though. Beth -----Original Message----- From: Robert Ripley To: CSA list Date: Thursday, October 14, 1999 5:51 PM Subject: organic or not >i truly believe that growing comes down to trust. the people in our area >know we are organic, but even before being certified for other >purposes-processing etc. they knew we grew organically. the trust that grows >between grower & client is never to be taken lightly though. if u grow >organically, let your clients know-if not, PLEASE let them know. we can only >make informed choices if we know what we are choosing from. >thanks for listening to my babble. >while i have your attention- we r looking for a few good people for our >zone 5 csa & year round sugarbush & greenhouse !!! > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 00:08:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA24031 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 00:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA19948; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:07:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19748 for ; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 23:05:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-168.premier1.net [207.149.54.168]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id VAA12103; Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910150400.VAA12103@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: Marcie Rosenzweig Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 21:09:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Determining share price CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org X-Confirm-Reading-To: mjb@mail.premier1.net X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 698 > Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 08:52:37 -0800 > To: "Nicholas A Westcott" > From: Marcie Rosenzweig > Subject: Re: Determining share price > Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org > > > > Dear Nick, We use a method similar to what Marcie explained. I've deleted her message so I don't know if she mentioned yield per square foot or not. We take that into account when we are figuring our next year's crop potentials. With a CSA not every vegetable produced is going to be as highly profitable as some, so what is loved by our members but doesn't make us the bucks we plant just enough to supply the members but not the markets. Hope all of our diversification doesn't confuse you too much! Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 09:37:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28892 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA21105; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:36:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ra.raex.com (ns2.raex.com [216.196.16.10]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20965 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:35:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-150.raex.com [216.196.24.150]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA04942 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <010901bf1711$a731b9c0$9618c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: "CSA list" Subject: share price, ect Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:31:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 699 Hello to the CSA Loop, Here we decided upon the share price by a truly unscientific method. We decided to have at least 5 things in the basket every week. Then priced those items out at (organic) retail, then decided that those items would average an aproximate $17 - $18 per week and mulitplied that times the 20 weeks of our season to reach the share price of $350. We are hoping that the retail price holds a profit margin, but we KNOW that it may not due to the mechinization of big farms versus our wheel hoe. We also look at the wholesale prices for the stuff we grow that comes from an organic wholesaler. We are in our 6th year of organic certification but I agree that in a more perfect world where you did business with folks you were more intimate with it would not be necessary. This is our first year of doing a CSA, we started out wholesaling to natural foods markets so the legal definition of organic was important to them and thus to us. We lean towards the idea of the CSA being just one part of our diversification program. Profitability? I am not sure I could pack that many baskets! We are going to stay under 35 shares because we have become proficient at saying 'off farm job' and there is just so much one and a half people can do. We plan to continue on with the $350 price this year. We kept careful records of what went in the baskets and as soon as we get all the cover crops on and everything put to bed and the new roof on the cooler. . . . .we will sit down with the calculator and see if our $17 - $18 per week was even close to reality. I agree that some things I would grow for the CSAs for because they like them (like carrots) but would not wholesale or take to farmers market because they are just not money makers for us. But arrugula (for instance) the CSAers don't rave about but it is worth about $20 a case of 24 bunches so I am eager to plant quite a lot of it. The whole farm thing is such a juggling act, always new, I love it! Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm last CSA pickup tomorrow! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 10:19:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29818 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24901; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:18:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24797 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 09:17:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.161] (216-224-149-151.stk.jps.net [216.224.149.151]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA20550; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 07:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199910150400.VAA12103@premier1.premier1.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 07:24:08 -0800 To: mjb@premier1.net From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Determining share price Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 Michele, Yep, we have forms for either square foot (beds) or linear feet (rows). We also have a form to project yield and income, including income from multiple sources ie farmers markets, CSA, restaurants, on one side of the fom and a place to track reality on the other. This allows you to "fine tue" your operation from year to year. Marcie From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 11:40:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01845 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03529; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:39:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03433 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:38:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cheeks.excite.com ([199.172.152.207]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991015153503.LZMC22257.kuku.excite.com@cheeks.excite.com> for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:35:03 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: share price, ect Message-Id: <940001703.1801.999@excite.com> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:35:03 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.20 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 701 Setting the share price has taken up alot of my time over the years. We are not scientific about this but do it rather by what the market will seem to bare. Our first year we had 2 levels a full share for $550 and a 1/2 share fore $300-everyone signed up for the 1/2 share. The second year non- working share $600 working share $300. Everyoine signs up to be a working member (and few really worked all that much). From this iI can see that $300 is a significant number so we decided to keep share prices this year below $300 and will charge $200 for a 1/2 bu or 5 pounds of food every week (actually a paper grocery bag is the measuring unit). We are basing the amount on the fact most surveys that were returned this year and last complained there was too much food-I figure 5 pounds of veggies will never be too much and if this is not a large enough portion for some we will encourage them to buy several shares. I have kept good records of what we have packed the bags with every week but bad records on amounts. Next year I shall keep the bags on the light side Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 14:02:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04586 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16646; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:01:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16537 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:01:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.123]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA400 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 13:58:43 -0400 Message-ID: <001201bf1739$97727a60$7bc3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: maple sugaring Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 14:17:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 702 10 gallons is great! most people dont realize that u started with 43 times that much in terms of sap! congrats & let us know whereu r & if u need anything. we have 35 acres of sugarbush-all sugarmaple & 1200 taps-we r the "little guy" in our area-1000 litres- zalia & bob ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 18:10:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09298 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09665; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:10:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09530 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:09:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA05134; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:08:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004415; Fri Oct 15 17:03:19 1999 Message-ID: <037301bf1759$467d2cc0$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: maple sugaring Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:04:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 703 Hi We are a bit south of you, nope not Vermont, Massachusetts. Just playing at sugarin' making some for the CSA members, and hopefully a little extra as a value added product to sell to the general public. And another ingredient in making the farm interesting to the "hourds" of clients :). Beth -----Original Message----- From: Robert Ripley To: CSA list Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 2:01 PM Subject: maple sugaring >10 gallons is great! most people dont realize that u started with 43 times >that much in terms of sap! >congrats & let us know whereu r & if u need anything. >we have 35 acres of sugarbush-all sugarmaple & 1200 taps-we r the "little >guy" in our area-1000 litres- >zalia & bob >ontario > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 18:30:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09565 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA11180; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:30:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11103 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 17:30:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from server ([207.164.195.119]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA401 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:28:08 -0400 Message-ID: <001201bf175f$3bc28900$77c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: maple sugaring Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 18:47:17 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 704 i would be very interested in what else you do for the masses that come to your farm Beth. we have a big open house each october that brings out people by the hundreds. we ask that the surrounding farms join in if they like & try to organize a big farm tour for everyone around. we advertise FREE on local radio-they will put in free ads for any COMMUNITY happening-there is the catch-get lots of people involved-we find a whole new batch of members & just people to purchase my preserves etc, that day. i am a chef by trade & in the middle of expanding my preserve line. we are putting up 10 000 sq. ft of year round greenhouse this week & hopefully this will mean carrots in february for the masses! we are trying different energy saving methods for this-wind mostly-we are on the highest point out here-not good for trees BUT:) i am babbling agin. i am so exceited!! please share any ideas you may have! thanks fellow sugarmaker zalia From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 15 20:33:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10756 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20237; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:32:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20160 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA19455; Fri, 15 Oct 1999 19:31:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bsg-ma1a-212.ix.netcom.com(209.110.248.212) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019439; Fri Oct 15 19:31:22 1999 Message-ID: <038501bf176d$f60bb620$d4f86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: maple sugaring Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 20:32:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 705 >Hi Zalia, Babble away, it so nice to "hear" excited people. We haven't gotten hundreds of people to our farm yet were still too new. We are just beginning to develop a reputation. Last week-end and this upcoming one we ran an ad for pumpkin hayrides, free hayride to pumpkin patch with purchase. We had a three day week-end last week-end but one day rained all day. We'll see this week-end. I really do believe that people have to repeatedly see your ad before they get around to coming up. I don't know if we'll run the ad for a third week, well have to see. At $200 a pop I don't know. As of now we have not paid for the one ad actually about 1/2. I can even deal with only making 1/2 the ad in the sort of nothing ventured nothing gained aspect, but a third week $600 I don't think we need that much "PR" :). The hayrides are horse drawn (can be tractor drawn as well if the horses are on strike) and that adds alot of appeal. The sugar house is our other "weird" "unusual" thing. We maybe the only sugar house in our 20 circular mile suburban area. There are quite a few about an hours drive from us. We invision someday giving school tours, can you say gift shop?! Plus other group tours, scouts, senior etc. Renting the farm for events ie: corporated luncheons, maybe weddings, birthday parties(not my favorite I must admitt, didn't even like my own kids parties, but then they didn't pay me to throw it!)Of course these things require a bit more in the way of a building and bathroom than we've got(nothing). We did our one little event and the corporation rented a little tent and a porta pottey it was ok. Actually a newly delivered pottey is very clean! I could be talked into a Bed and Breakfast as well. Need major work on house for that even then we'd need to be discribed as rustic or great food, great location, boring house :). I read in a past Country Journal about increasing farm business and many did find people who wished to stay at their houses simply to enjoy the farm atmosphere, guests even did chores! Probably only took twice as long ha ha. So lots of plans, but at the moment, CSA, a few cute farm animals, and the draft team. Good Good luck Beth would be very interested in what else you do for the masses that come to >your farm Beth. we have a big open house each october that brings out people >by the hundreds. >i am babbling agin. >i am so exceited!! >please share any ideas you may have! >thanks fellow sugarmaker >zalia > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 11:48:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17983 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA08722; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:47:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cepheus.azstarnet.com (cepheus.azstarnet.com [169.197.56.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08016 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:35:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from oemcomputer (dialup02ip038.tus.azstarnet.com [169.197.30.166]) by cepheus.azstarnet.com (8.9.3+blt.Beta0/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07866 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:35:08 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-ID: <003f01bf17ed$5fc817a0$a61ec5a9@oemcomputer> From: "Crecencio Elenes" To: "sanet listserve" Subject: Position Available Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:44:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF17B2.B140E160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 706 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF17B2.B140E160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TerraCycle Farm is looking for energetic, enthusiastic individual or = couple interested in working on an organic farm and composting facility = oriented towards sustainability.=20 We have a 20 acre, organic certified vegetable farm and composting = operation. We have numerous school/environmental education/farm = collaborations in progress. The farm is also a partner in a USDA funded = Community Food Project. We have limited funds but have the potential for = more to be generated. This year we started the CSA portion of the farm = with limited membership (30). We also direct market to Tucson and Green = Valley which are 50 and 35 miles away respectively. We are located 15 = miles from the US-Mexico border. Anyone interested in working in this = area would benefit from speaking Spanish or have a desire to learn it. = Please feel free to contact me (Jo Jean) or my husband (Crecencio) if = you are interested at (520) 398-3140 (evenings) or on celluar phones: = (520) 980-0952 or (520) 440-2743. The farm is located in Rio Rico = Arizona, south of Tucson. This invitation is particularly geared to = graduates of the UC Santa Cruz Agroecology Course. We have a silver = travel trailer available and we can pay a modest wage that could = increase depending on ability to generate more funds.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF17B2.B140E160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    TerraCycle Farm is looking for energetic, enthusiastic individual = or couple=20 interested in working on an organic farm and composting facility = oriented=20 towards sustainability.
    We have a 20 acre, organic certified vegetable farm and composting=20 operation. We have numerous school/environmental education/farm = collaborations=20 in progress. The farm is also a partner in a USDA funded Community Food = Project.=20 We have limited funds but have the potential for more to be generated. = This year=20 we started the CSA portion of the farm with limited membership (30). We = also=20 direct market to Tucson and Green Valley which are 50 and 35 miles away=20 respectively. We are located 15 miles from the US-Mexico border. Anyone=20 interested in working in this area would benefit from speaking Spanish = or have a=20 desire to learn it. Please feel free to contact me (Jo Jean) or my = husband=20 (Crecencio) if you are interested at (520) 398-3140 (evenings) or on = celluar=20 phones: (520) 980-0952 or (520) 440-2743. The farm is located in Rio = Rico=20 Arizona, south of Tucson. This invitation is particularly geared to = graduates of=20 the UC Santa Cruz Agroecology Course. We have a silver travel trailer = available=20 and we can pay a modest wage that could increase depending on ability to = generate more funds.
    ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BF17B2.B140E160-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 12:00:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18067 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA09514; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:59:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08983 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 10:51:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.161] (216-224-153-43.stk.jps.net [216.224.153.43]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA11495 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <010901bf1711$a731b9c0$9618c4d8@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 08:58:12 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: share price, ect Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 707 Carol, You made an excellent point. Farms need to look at the market(s) they are pursuing. I found my planting scheme was very different when I made CSA dominant than when I was selling at 5 markets per week. The restaurant situation was different from the other two. I, too, found my CSA folks wanted carrots in their shares. I never grew them for the farers markets because I couldn't cover the costs of pulling them, bunching them, washing them, cooling them and getting them to market. Here in California, CalOrganics contracts with large mechanized growers and can bring cello bags of carrots to the supermarkets for $.59/lb. all year long. Head lettuce - too much bed and truck space for too little return. On the other hand, my colored bell peppers were a major hit with the restaurant trade and killer at the markets, but shareholders wanted fewer of them. I guess this all comes down to knowing for your target market, not just growing stuff and hoping to find a market. Marcie From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 12:21:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18241 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 12:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11065; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:21:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA10707 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:15:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 11:15:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910161615.LAA10707@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 11773 invoked from network); 16 Oct 1999 16:15:14 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as006-110.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as005-125.iquest.net) (209.43.56.110) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 16 Oct 1999 16:15:14 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Closing up season Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 Here in Indiana we are down to one week to go. Oct 20 will be the last official CSA pickup. I have not sent out surveys, though I intend to. Generally, though, our people are quite happy and beginning to complain that they will have to go back to the retail stores now. One lady was dissappointed, and put her complaints in writing. Had she communicated with me earlier I probably could have ensured her satisfaction. It was the first and only complaint I have had in 4 years of this so I guess we are doing pretty well. In that case I had even extended "credit" to the person. She paid only as she resigned from the CSA. In general, I did not consider it much of a loss. She wanted out and was increasingly and obviously unhappy. I wish she had taken me up on our just order what you want and buy it option... We pride ourselves on flexibility--all members have to do is ask and we try our best to offer them a different veggie, a closer pick up site, or extras if they miss a week. When we can't do that, we just tell them that it isn't possible at that time but we will try to help later if things go well. Perhaps this is not a good idea, but just like us, our members have complications in their lives and I don't mind giving a dedicated supporter a pound or 2 of basil at the end of the season to make up for missed weeks. I AM less likely to do this for new members. If it is a good year then I like to share the extra--they should benefit from the good times as well as suffer through the bad, just like we all do. Due to a bumper crop of cucumbers I was forced to make too many pickles so our members will get a jar as a surprise in their baskets next week. I'm lucky that these folks often give me jars of their canned foods, and even bring by food they have cooked for me to share with my family during the busy times. In spring we offer an "early bird" signup gift (last year it was a bar of organic soap). Considering the jars of salsa, pans of lasagna and pies I've been given the extra is well compensated. We even offer $1.00 "rebates" for saved seeds from melons and other things (We produce most of our own seed here and can eat only so many watermelons...) Watermelons are not part of the regular CSA baskets as they are usually too large to fit, so we sell them. WIth one week to go, and looking at the fields I see a lot of food left over, and we will try to sell as much as we can. Lucy, I wish I could send you some of it! Next year we hope to increase memberships--this year we had 32, though 5 of them joined for 10 and 15 weeks rather than 20 due to schedules. I'd like to get up to 50 or 60 so we don't have to do farmers market to supplement. I really prefer not to work every weekend and miss having any spare time with my family. I'd like to do some member social events but between my schedule and the membership's it is hard to find time for that. Some day when my life settles down more--I promise myself... Meanwhile they do visit us at our booths at the Earth Day and Festival of Light events. We get few complaints about too much food, except for occasional items. Eggplant and radishes have been plentiful and I've been trying to come up with new ways to fix them to help the members. Some of the members think I am crazy but you really can make an eggplant muffin if you WANT to... We have a cookbook project going as well. Our biggest wishes for the future are a walk in cooler and a commercial kitchen, but that is't going to happen soon I'm afraid. It's always funny to me that I get so tired of the whole thing by this time of year only to miss the members as soon as it's over. Some of them have become quite dear to us. I must say I have really enjoyed this mailing list. As an old-timer at telecommunicating (since the old BBS days) I have found most lists to be a lot of clutter with little really useful info. This list offers people who have the same problems and successes and I have appreciated that chance to get to know others doing the same thing. Seems like people from the midwest really need such a forum... BTW, in case anyone nearby is interested, in the last week of January we help to sponsor the Indiana Horticultural Congress and do a big organic workshop. I'll be sending info as it becomes available, so if you can make it I'd love to meet some of you! My best to everyone--I need to go make relish out of the last of the green tomatoes, peppers and cabbage, and plant some winter rye! At 10:10 AM 10/9/99 PDT, Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote: >We stopped CSA bags two weeks ago due to lack of food. We had 5 members this >season and as far as I know 4 are not returning because 2 moved away, one >did not pick up his bags very often (for me this was not a problem as this >is one of my best friends and he felt verrrrry guilty about his lack of CSA >participation) and one was a bater with a doctor and he just hasn't done any >communication with us so i will assume that his family is not inerested in >joining again. We had an OK season with the CSA. It was too small a group to >generate much income for the farm but most of the members who signed up to >be working members did come out and work -one woman came for 4 hours every >week and did good work. Next year I will not have a working member option at >half the price of the regular membership-everybody signed up foir that one >and only 1/2 of that group actually did the work. All who didn't work felt >bad but were not willing to hand over another $300. >The drought hit us hard by late september and we had only green pears and >half rotten peppers to hand out so we stopped pick ups. It seemed to us >interest was waning as more and more often bags were not being picked up. >We have picked up 2 new members for next season and will be doing a CSA >presentation in November to a group of potential members. Our goal this year >is to get about 40 to 50 members and form a core group. I feel we have been >floundering without one but in the last 2 years we have done this we have >yet to get anyone interested in forming one. It would be a large burden >lifted to have the help. >Speaking of help we now have an intern that works every friday for us. We >were not looking for an intern but she contacted us and said she would work >for food and college credit (she get 4 hours for her work here) and had >housing. She's been great to have around, it's a lot of fun teaching her >about farming and hearing her veiws on farming. I think we will do this >intern thing again next season but get one to start working in the spring >not the beginning of September. >We have several beds tilled and planted and the wheat and rye are coming up >in some. A few beds we plowed and have planted a clover plow down for >chicken pasture. I was amazed at how hard it is to find cover crop seed >around here-I guess the grain farmers don't do much cover cropping. >We also have an ever growing falling garden full of lettuces, arugula, >mizuna, radishes, turnips, beets, muystard greens, chard, kale, leeks, cukes >and zukes (season extensuion expiriment-is working so far, the bees have >found the cucabrits within seconds of taking the covers off in the late >morning so we have fruit). We will be doing lots of root planting for our >chickens this winter so they have some living food all winter. >We are also getting ready to build a simple hoop house when ever it quits >raining 9not that I am complaining about rain) > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 14:49:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA00519 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA20108; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:28:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20049 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 13:28:29 -0500 (CDT) From: LionKuntz@aol.com Received: from LionKuntz@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id aUQRE5VD4_ (4539); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.b5a60f11.253a1da8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 14:27:52 EDT Subject: non-profit CSA? To: steffo@gilanet.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 709 In a message dated 99-09-29 11:27:09 EDT, steffo@gilanet.com writes: > We are currently looking at taking our CSA non profit also, and would > love to see info from others who've done it. As I understand it, CSA > itself is NOT an activity that would qualify for 501(c)3 status. But > when viewed as a whole, the farm with it's educational work could > qualify, and then continue to operate the CSA and other agricultural > businesses for the primary purpose of providing students and apprentices > with a real life farm experience as a part of our educational programs. > > I'd love to hear others thoughts on this. And if any of you have > actually put your farms into non-profit status, I'd love to see your by > laws and such to give us some helpful role models as we seek to make > this change. > > Thanks! > > Stef Fuegi > Bear Creek Farms > Gila, NM The laws of all fifty states are held on the internet at library of congress. Exact local variation is available there. CSA is normally just a store operation combined with a farm operation, neither of which is non-profit even if you never make a profit. The educational aspects might have to be spun off as seperate entity if the IRS insists that it is the tail, not the dog. Are you primarily an education operation which is supported in part by farming and sales from farming? Drop by LifeSaviors Homepage to see an outline of an Action Plan of a proposed primarily educational non-profit, with for-profit private corporation spinoff CSA-based agricultural effort. LionKuntz@Yahoo.com CC: lkuntz@efn.org LifeSaviors Homepage: http://www.efn.org/~lkuntz Alternate: http://www.users2.50megs.com/LifeSaviors/index.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 16:46:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01595 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA28418; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:46:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28337 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:45:31 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dYJTa05338 (4465) for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.f5903e24.253a3dc5@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:44:53 EDT Subject: Change of address To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 710 I would like to change my email address for this list-serve. I can't find the instructions -- hope you can help me. Change from PaOrganic@aol.com to CommonGro@aol.com Thank you. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 16:51:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01657 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA28840; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:51:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28785 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 15:51:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id aZQV0ct_AC (4465); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.7402b027.253a3f22@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 16:50:42 EDT Subject: Re: non-profit CSA? To: LionKuntz@aol.com, steffo@gilanet.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 711 Most CSAs would probably qualify as non-profit under the Agricultural Coop section of the Internal Revenue Code. It is a different section from the 501(c)(3) that most people are familiar with.(sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up right now). You do not have to have an educational or scientific purpose. The main difference is that donations to this type of non-profit group are not tax deductible. I think you would still qualify for some grant programs, if that's what you're after. Call the IRS and ask for the instructions for non-profits. The qualifications for the different types are explained fairly well in the booklet. (Free) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 19:28:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02898 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07983; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:28:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d06.mx.aol.com (imo-d06.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07896 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 18:27:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo-d06.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6VHL7.WVe_ (4462); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.3e393e18.253a63d1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 19:27:13 EDT Subject: Re: To: cvof@iquest.net, kir139@yahoo.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 712 I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people who call the office asking where they can buy local organic food. Our organization educates and certifies organic producers. We are not involved in marketing. Some members would like us to be involved in marketing, but many say that the last thing they want is someone calling them up in July and asking if they can come to the farm and buy a few quarts of beans. Anyway, the bottom line is we are completely farmer-supported. ($-wise) We would have to charge higher certification fees in order to make this type of information available to anyone who calls and figure out which of our 420 members want us to give out the info (Certification files are strictly confidential.) Currently, it's not practical for me to go through all the files to see who is doing what in a certain locality. Also, we don't really ask for that sort of info. It's just not what we do. State Departments of Ag generally keep an extensive (free) list of farmers markets in the state -- that would be a good place to add CSAs. The state IS in the business of promoting agriculture. In fact, so many people bug us about giving out info, that we applied for and received some funds to compile an Organic Directory. We're working on it, but staffing is a probelm and we can only list people who send in their listing forms, not our entire membership. And there are CSAs who would not be listed with us anyway because they aren't certified organic. I requested funds to put the info on the internet, also. In the meantime, sorry about the brick wall. Leslie Zuck Executive Director Pa Certified Organic In a message dated 10/7/99 6:02:08 PM, cvof@iquest.net writes: << Right now if you call an organic certifier with a question about local organic operations you usually run into a brick wall or an exhorbitant "research" fee...I just recently found out that the list of FSIS approved organic meat labels is not available unless you use the Freedom of Information Act. This, to me is absurd. CSA's, organic farmers, certified organic operations lists, etc... are BUSINESSES for Pete's sake. I thought businesses wanted to be promoted. I sure do. >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 22:45:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04554 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA19604; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:44:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19494 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:44:05 -0500 (CDT) From: LionKuntz@aol.com Received: from LionKuntz@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6XQTa12223 (4544); Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.c99b6857.253a91d1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:43:29 EDT Subject: Re: I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people To: Paorganic@aol.com, cvof@iquest.net, kir139@yahoo.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 713 Putting out the information, as opposed to giving out information are two different things. I want to establish an organic certification organization exactly because the policies described in your message ought to face competition and let the best one remain standing when the dust has cleared. Most information is gathered and kept in machine readable form (that is, "electrons") and can quite simply and easily be put out as computer-retrievable form for those who need it. I am not familiar with the organic certification organization you are affiliated with, but nearby is Oregon Tilth, who I can use as an example of practices like you describe. From their homepage I cannot obtain information of the list of farmers markets which they word-processed for their members booklet, nor can I locate those same farmers listed in the booklet through the homepage, even though that data was word-processed and stored on disk files while compiling the list. These kinds of data are not "secret" or proprietary, they are published in a booklet offered for sale to anyone who wants the data. Oregon Tilth is certainly not going the extra mile for their members who pay exhorbitant rates to be members. Oregon Tilth does not offer much of anything real and useful on their homepage: it is the obligatory decorative corporate (albeit non-profit corporate) homepage as the de rigour presence on the internet. While their literature is full of requirements on farmers to the point of intrusiveness on how wastes are disposed of where it has no connection to the growing fields, supposedly for ecological peripheral reasons, they will not themselves do the ecologically right thing and provide non-paper alternatives of data to their customers. Strange how they can demand of their clients a higher standard than they are willing to meet. Anyone who thinks that certifiers are not in marketting has their head on cockeyed, because that's all they exist for. They make it possible for farmers to market CERTIFIED organic merchandise, stores and distributors to market CERTIFIED organic produce, and manufacturers to process CERTIFIED organic products. The CERTIFICATION is intimately coupled with marketing, and where organic marketing can exist without certification, certifiers cannot exist without marketing. There is room for competition in the MARKETPLACE and the unfit certifiers should lose their MARKET-share as farmers take their hard-earned money to where it buys them more services and less hypocracy. In a message dated 99-10-16 19:28:16 EDT, Paorganic@aol.com writes: > > I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people > > who call the office asking where they can buy local organic food. > Our organization educates and certifies organic producers. > We are not involved in marketing. > Some members would like us to be involved in marketing, but many say that > the > last thing they want is someone calling them up in July and asking if they > can come to the farm and buy a few quarts of beans. > Anyway, the bottom line is we are completely farmer-supported. ($-wise) We > would have to charge higher certification fees in order to make this type of > > information available to anyone who calls and figure out which of our 420 > members want us to give out the info (Certification files are strictly > confidential.) > Currently, it's not practical for me to go through all the files to see who > is doing what in a certain locality. Also, we don't really ask for that > sort > of info. It's just not what we do. > State Departments of Ag generally keep an extensive (free) list of farmers > markets in the state -- that would be a good place to add CSAs. The state > IS > in the business of promoting agriculture. > In fact, so many people bug us about giving out info, that we applied for > and > received some funds to compile an Organic Directory. We're working on it, > but staffing is a probelm and we can only list people who send in their > listing forms, not our entire membership. And there are CSAs who would not > be > listed with us anyway because they aren't certified organic. > I requested funds to put the info on the internet, also. > In the meantime, sorry about the brick wall. > > Leslie Zuck > Executive Director > Pa Certified Organic > > In a message dated 10/7/99 6:02:08 PM, cvof@iquest.net writes: > > << Right now if you call an organic certifier with a question about local > organic operations you usually run into a brick wall or an exhorbitant > "research" fee...I just recently found out that the list of FSIS approved > organic meat labels is not available unless you use the Freedom of > Information Act. This, to me is absurd. CSA's, organic farmers, certified > organic operations lists, etc... are BUSINESSES for Pete's sake. I thought > businesses wanted to be promoted. I sure do. > >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 16 23:29:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05019 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA22453; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:29:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22388 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 22:29:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (216-224-155-214.stk.jps.net [216.224.155.214]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA01960 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38094389.C75687D5@jps.net> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:33:31 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: share price, ect References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 714 Marcie Rosenzweig wrote: > I, too, found my CSA folks wanted carrots in their shares. I never grew > them for the farers markets because I couldn't cover the costs of pulling > them, bunching them, washing them, cooling them and getting them to market. > Here in California, CalOrganics contracts with large mechanized growers and > can bring cello bags of carrots to the supermarkets for $.59/lb. all year > long. Head lettuce - too much bed and truck space for too little return. I've seen at least one other post saying carrots were not worth growing as a cash crop. Carrots are one of mine. I charge $1.50 per fresh bunch and can regularly sell between 70 and 100 bunches / week (Nov. to Feb.) at our one local year roundSaturday market. They are my cash income from mid November to Mid February. I figure my gross income is about 80 to 100 cents/foot of row (about $1000 worth planted). I spade them, then pull and bunch them as I pull them with 9 inch twist ties (18 inchers cut in half) (blue - looks nice against green tops and orange bottoms) muddy in the field - 6 or 8 to a bunch depending on size -, load them into a wheelborrow, haul them to my wash table. I hose sprayrinse them 3 times, (more or less): * first time as I pull them out of the borrow and stand them upright on my wash table * second time is a thorough attempt, gently flopping them around on the table, to get most all the mud off. * As I finish with each bunch I stack it neatly directly onto the bed of the truck (I have a Datsun PU with a flatbed backed up to within a step of the wash table) and hit them again with the hose as they lay on the truck . These may or may not be "clean", but they are fresh and they look like carrots instead of muddy ball things. Sometimes I simply take the tailgate off the truck at the market and let this be my display, but usually I stack them as high as I can on a 6 foot market table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes with the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also don't look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they were dirty.) It takes me between 3 and 4 hours to harvest 100 bunches, and I am at the market from 8am to 1pm selling and visiting with customers and friends. If I come away with $100.00 after paying my stall fee I figure it was well worth it. (The Market is 2 miles from the Farm) That is my week's wages., but I only worked friday and saturday - part days. Because I harvest in the afternoon and the market is in the morning I can sell my carrots as being "less than a day out of the ground. Funky bunches left toward the end of the market get sold at a discount or traded. Even on a rainy windy miserable market day when others sellers are doing poorly, I can do fairly well because lots of Market loyalist get used to getting their weekly supply of sweet , fresh-dug carrots. Sometimes it seems like there could only be 50 customers that brave the weather some days, but just about everyone of them will buy one or more bunches of sweet fresh carrots from me. Because I bunch my carrots dirty in the field, do less than a "perfect" job of cleaning them, pack them directly onto the truck (no boxes to pack and unpack, and there is no need to cool them down ( tho I have sometimes needed to cover them to keep them from freezing) I have cut my labor way down. Carrots are sweetest after they get a bit of light frost, so I plant them in early July so they will be sized up enough to begin harvesting in November, first for my subscribers, then with the end of the subscription season, for sale at the market. I grow only enough to carry me to sometime in February - later they would get woody and lose their sweetness as they began putting energy into bolting and flowering. I only sell carrots during the time they taste best and so have a reputation for having "the sweetest crispest carrots. (The varity I plant is "Scarlet Nantes".) I live in Northern California, but grew up on a farm in Kansas, so I know how different climates and growing conditions can be. And there is no one at our local market (yet) who is selling bags of carrots for 59 cents/lb. all year round. Still, carrots are one of my 3 cash crops (along with potatoes and peaches). The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. But I was just thinking this week, that with a similar approach there might be a nice nitch at the market for heads of loose leaf lettuces. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 00:37:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05485 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA26109; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:37:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26017 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 23:36:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (216-224-151-171.stk.jps.net [216.224.151.171]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA13426 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <38095369.9C093DA1@jps.net> Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1999 21:41:13 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Links to Non Profit CSA's with Web Pages. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 715 Below are web address/links to Non Profit CSA's that have web pages. I am not sure that all of them are in fact legally recognized Non-Profits, but those that do not come out and state that they are 501c3 seem to me to be close to fulfilling the legal description requirements. http://darsie.ucdavis.edu/DWS/gmf.html http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs/publicinfo/community.html http://www.agron.iastate.edu/studentfarm/ http://www.permaculture-institute.org/our_farm.html http://birch.palni.edu/~mkruse/michaela.html#about http://stewardshipcommunity.org/ -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 08:02:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07313 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA15828; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:01:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15767 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:01:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6QNSa03805 (4440); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.24c99c33.253b1463@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 08:00:35 EDT Subject: Re: I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people To: LionKuntz@aol.com, cvof@iquest.net, kir139@yahoo.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 Dear LionKuntz, I am not familiar with Tilth's fees, but if we could get away with charging "exorbitant" fees, we would certainly be able to include marketing as one of our services. We present our budget to our members annually and they get to vote on whether they want more services, and whether they are willing to pay more $ for those services. I think (but I may be wrong) the reason we are surviving in the marketplace is because our fees are reasonable compared to the larger certifiers. (Farm certification fees range from $275 to $800, INCLUDING inspection -- no user fees or commissions are charges over and above that amount) Anything we have available electronically, we can make available to people through our homepage. (I think our fees are on there.) I don't have much available that way right now, but we are restructuring our database so that at least the info we do have will be readily available if members give permission. Almost half our producers are Amish and will not permit their names / information to be desseminated via electronic media. We are trying very hard to balance everyone's needs, while keeping in mind that our primary responsibility is to our producers, not the consumer who calls the office looking for 10# of organic carrots. PaOrganic From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 10:23:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08126 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:23:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22105; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:16:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21971 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:14:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca ([206.172.93.82]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22386 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991014193947.0073c564@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1999 19:39:47 -0400 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Maritime farms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 717 Is anyone out there from the Canadian maritimes? I am pondering moving, and would like some insight into the growing season/market in any of the maritime provinces. Thanks, Hilary From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 10:53:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08345 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24485; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:48:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24392 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:48:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pounce.excite.com ([199.172.152.99]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991017144742.VXYY24632.fortune.excite.com@pounce.excite.com> for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:47:42 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Cash crops Message-Id: <940171663.17116.487@excite.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 07:47:43 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.70 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 718 In ohio we used to have a hard time selling carrots though this year we did very well with them , Like Richard we sell them for about $1.50 to $2.00 a bunch and grow half longs and scarlet nantes. richard mentioned a nich market fro loose leaf lettuce and yes there can be money to be made. Spring and fall are lettuce seasons for us. We also grow spinach, arugula, radishes and a mesculun mix. We have good sales with lettuce at most of our venues (farmers markets and 2 retail stores). Lettuce is a bit more labor intensive than carrots and you have to get the crop in very early in the mornining and than get it cold and in the fridge. I also bag and label every head that isn't going to a resturant (they get everything in bulk), same with mesculun, arugula and spinach. Our best sales are the mesculun. it goes for $6lb loose and $8.oolb packaged in 1/4lb amts for $2.00. Lettuce goes for $1.50hd. Spinach usually gets $4.00lb (we haven't harvested yet this fall). i don't like the over packageing but it sells the stuff very well compared to having it loose. At markets I keep most of the salad stuff in coolers and display very little and what is out is alway on lots of ice. We have an EZ up shelter to shade the leaves so they don't look bad within minutes (when the greens do look bad instead of replacing them I tell customers that those are the demonstrator models and the good stuff is in the cooler). Unfortunately the our CSA see very little of the salad greens as we end the CSA season before the fall crops come in or start after most of the stuff has passed it's prime in the spring. We try to keep the cold crops coming well into January and soon we will have a hoop house to extend the season into early spring. On Sat, 16 Oct 1999 20:33:31 -0700, Richard Roth wrote: > > I've seen at least one other post saying carrots were not worth growing as a > cash crop. Carrots are one of mine. I charge $1.50 per fresh bunch and can > regularly sell between 70 and 100 bunches / week (Nov. to Feb.) at our one > local year roundSaturday market. They are my cash income from mid November to > Mid February. I figure my gross income is about 80 to 100 cents/foot of row > (about $1000 worth planted). > > I spade them, then pull and bunch them as I pull them with 9 inch twist ties > (18 inchers cut in half) (blue - looks nice against green tops and orange > bottoms) muddy in the field - 6 or 8 to a bunch depending on size -, load > them into a wheelborrow, haul them to my wash table. > > I hose sprayrinse them 3 times, (more or less): > > * first time as I pull them out of the borrow and stand them upright on my > wash table > * second time is a thorough attempt, gently flopping them around on the > table, to get most all the mud off. > * As I finish with each bunch I stack it neatly directly onto the bed of > the truck (I have a Datsun PU with a flatbed backed up to within a step > of the wash table) and hit them again with the hose as they lay on the > truck . > > These may or may not be "clean", but they are fresh and they look like carrots > instead of muddy ball things. > > Sometimes I simply take the tailgate off the truck at the market and let this > be my display, but usually I stack them as high as I can on a 6 foot market > table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes with > the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also don't > look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of > funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they were > dirty.) > > It takes me between 3 and 4 hours to harvest 100 bunches, and I am at the > market from 8am to 1pm selling and visiting with customers and friends. If I > come away with $100.00 after paying my stall fee I figure it was well worth > it. (The Market is 2 miles from the Farm) That is my week's wages., but I only > worked friday and saturday - part days. > > Because I harvest in the afternoon and the market is in the morning I can sell > my carrots as being "less than a day out of the ground. Funky bunches left > toward the end of the market get sold at a discount or traded. Even on a rainy > windy miserable market day when others sellers are doing poorly, I can do > fairly well because lots of Market loyalist get used to getting their weekly > supply of sweet , fresh-dug carrots. Sometimes it seems like there could only > be 50 customers that brave the weather some days, but just about everyone of > them will buy one or more bunches of sweet fresh carrots from me. > > Because I bunch my carrots dirty in the field, do less than a "perfect" job of > cleaning them, pack them directly onto the truck (no boxes to pack and unpack, > and there is no need to cool them down ( tho I have sometimes needed to cover > them to keep them from freezing) I have cut my labor way down. > > Carrots are sweetest after they get a bit of light frost, so I plant them in > early July so they will be sized up enough to begin harvesting in November, > first for my subscribers, then with the end of the subscription season, for > sale at the market. I grow only enough to carry me to sometime in February - > later they would get woody and lose their sweetness as they began putting > energy into bolting and flowering. I only sell carrots during the time they > taste best and so have a reputation for having "the sweetest crispest carrots. > (The varity I plant is "Scarlet Nantes".) > > I live in Northern California, but grew up on a farm in Kansas, so I know how > different climates and growing conditions can be. And there is no one at our > local market (yet) who is selling bags of carrots for 59 cents/lb. all year > round. Still, carrots are one of my 3 cash crops (along with potatoes and > peaches). > > The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the > damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. > > But I was just thinking this week, that with a similar approach there might be > a nice nitch at the market for heads of loose leaf lettuces. > > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 11:04:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08451 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA25227; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:01:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA25173 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:01:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910171501.KAA25173@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 16927 invoked from network); 17 Oct 1999 15:00:57 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as004-37.iquest.net (209.43.54.37) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Oct 1999 15:00:57 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Paorganic@aol.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Cc: kir139@yahoo.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 719 I never meant to indicate that a certifier should be responsible for this, only that since they do not all have directories, that it is ok with me if gvmt does put one up. However, when our state--which does want to promote and help enhance markets for organic growers--asks for such information many certifiers here will not respond at all. Since we have only about 50 certified organic operations, the task is not so daunting as in your case. The 2 main certifiers here certify right at or under 20 operations each at this time. Of the 8 or so that operate here (many have only one operation) only one certifier consistently keeps the state informed. Certifiers certainly should not be involved in marketing-that creates a whole different set of problems... I have worked for certifiers over the years as well and I am on the Indiana Organic Peer Review Panel (Just so you know, I am NOT an employee and receive NO compensation for this work. My income is from farming.) and I know the problems of maintaining an up to date list of growers... I agree that this is what the state is in business for and should be helpful in doing, but they cannot do it without some cooperation from the certifers. Meanwhile if USDA, SANET, SARE, or any private groups or foundations want to offer such info I support it. CSA's who do not want to be identified can simply request to be left off the list/s. As a CSA farm I would appreciate the free publicity. Several of my members have come to me through our website. Consumers should have the right to know if a producer is certified or not. I do not consider this information confidential. I am proud to be certified organic and want my customers to know that I have jumped through the many hoops that certification entails. In Indiana there is a free publication from the Commissioners Office that lists Indiana farms. All one has to do is to contact them and ask to be in it, or to receive one. We also have a website for our organic program that lists all of the certified operations we have been able to identify. Unfortuntely, some are left out because the certifiers won't share that information. The state can help only if they can identify the growers and handlers. To date we have been able to get virtually NO info on processors and handlers here. I don't see how any of this secrecy does anything but hurt our growers, yet those here who refuse giving out this information constantly tell us that the state does nothing to help organic growers. Perhaps we are unique with our problems, but I doubt it. At 07:27 PM 10/16/99 EDT, Paorganic@aol.com wrote: >I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people >who call the office asking where they can buy local organic food. >Our organization educates and certifies organic producers. >We are not involved in marketing. >Some members would like us to be involved in marketing, but many say that the >last thing they want is someone calling them up in July and asking if they >can come to the farm and buy a few quarts of beans. >Anyway, the bottom line is we are completely farmer-supported. ($-wise) We >would have to charge higher certification fees in order to make this type of >information available to anyone who calls and figure out which of our 420 >members want us to give out the info (Certification files are strictly >confidential.) >Currently, it's not practical for me to go through all the files to see who >is doing what in a certain locality. Also, we don't really ask for that sort >of info. It's just not what we do. >State Departments of Ag generally keep an extensive (free) list of farmers >markets in the state -- that would be a good place to add CSAs. The state IS >in the business of promoting agriculture. >In fact, so many people bug us about giving out info, that we applied for and >received some funds to compile an Organic Directory. We're working on it, >but staffing is a probelm and we can only list people who send in their >listing forms, not our entire membership. And there are CSAs who would not be >listed with us anyway because they aren't certified organic. >I requested funds to put the info on the internet, also. >In the meantime, sorry about the brick wall. > >Leslie Zuck >Executive Director >Pa Certified Organic > >In a message dated 10/7/99 6:02:08 PM, cvof@iquest.net writes: > ><< Right now if you call an organic certifier with a question about local >organic operations you usually run into a brick wall or an exhorbitant >"research" fee...I just recently found out that the list of FSIS approved >organic meat labels is not available unless you use the Freedom of >Information Act. This, to me is absurd. CSA's, organic farmers, certified >organic operations lists, etc... are BUSINESSES for Pete's sake. I thought >businesses wanted to be promoted. I sure do. > >> > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 11:24:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08653 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26275; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:21:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26201 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910171520.KAA26201@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 24958 invoked from network); 17 Oct 1999 15:20:41 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as004-37.iquest.net (209.43.54.37) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Oct 1999 15:20:41 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Paorganic@aol.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: I work for an organic certifier and we do not give outinformation to people Cc: LionKuntz@aol.com, kir139@yahoo.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 720 We've kind of stepped out of CSA-speak here, but... The problem with this communication is the use of the term "marketing." Providing information and promotion of organic operations is not marketing. Some certifiers (OCIA) have historicallly had a promotions committee that created directories of handlers... but they did not actively get involved in the marketing of products. There is no reason why a certifier cannot do promotions, if they have resources and the inclination. On a personal level, I think running a good certification agency s enough of a job in itself. But should a certifier get involved in the actual marketing of products it creates accreditation problems in that the certifier could then be perceived to be able to make money from certification decisions (same goes for user fees as most certifiers currently collect them). This possible "conflict of interest" could cause problems with state laws, the National Organic Program, USDA's current conformity assessment, and buyers' requirements (especially overseas). I am familiar with both Tilth and PCO and to my knowledge they are both very good and credible options. I am also familiar with dissatisfaction with certifiers that is so great as to make one start their own agency (been there and helped to do that many years ago--the story being somewhat similar to how PCO began). There is room in this world for certifiers who wish to operate differently than some of the big guys. It is in meeting the requirements for the marketplace and in meeting the needs of its clients/membership that they will succeed. At this time there are several such (fairly new) agencies besides PCO: Indiana Certified Organic (started in 1995) NY " " CA Organic Farmers Assocation (1997 I believe) Organic Forum International, and more Since we have strayed from CSA topics, I will say that I would be delighted to discuss some of these options and models with anyone who is currently dissatisfied with what they see going on. The fact is that many certifiers do not really have a program that fits CSA's and small farms. That doesn't mean they cannot be created. At 08:00 AM 10/17/99 EDT, Paorganic@aol.com wrote: >Dear LionKuntz, >I am not familiar with Tilth's fees, but if we could get away with charging >"exorbitant" fees, we would certainly be able to include marketing as one of >our services. >We present our budget to our members annually and they get to vote on whether >they want more services, and whether they are willing to pay more $ for those >services. >I think (but I may be wrong) the reason we are surviving in the marketplace >is because our fees are reasonable compared to the larger certifiers. >(Farm certification fees range from $275 to $800, INCLUDING inspection -- no >user fees or commissions are charges over and above that amount) > >Anything we have available electronically, we can make available to people >through our homepage. (I think our fees are on there.) I don't have much >available that way right now, but we are restructuring our database so that >at least the info we do have will be readily available if members give >permission. Almost half our producers are Amish and will not permit their >names / information to be desseminated via electronic media. We are trying >very hard to balance everyone's needs, while keeping in mind that our primary >responsibility is to our producers, not the consumer who calls the office >looking for 10# of organic carrots. > >PaOrganic > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 11:32:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08678 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26914; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:29:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26845 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:28:58 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6IPDa19934 (4188); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.619e3f68.253b4515@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:28:21 EDT Subject: Re: To: cvof@iquest.net CC: kir139@yahoo.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 721 I am impressed with your state programs. If our state ag dept asked me for our list of certified organic farms I would gladly give it to them. (that info isn't confidential / secret-- name, address, phone) It would be great if they could sort it and supply the info people need based on the commodities produced -- a daunting task for which I am not technologically equipped. Instead, if some one calls the state dept of ag asking for info on organic farms, they tell them to call me. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 11:42:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08729 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27432; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:39:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27359 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:38:48 -0500 (CDT) From: Paorganic@aol.com Received: from Paorganic@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6DOF0wXbBc (4188); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.44dafd6a.253b4766@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:38:14 EDT Subject: Getting back on track To: cvof@iquest.net CC: LionKuntz@aol.com, kir139@yahoo.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 722 I agree that we have strayed -- sorry. I meant to mention that in PA we have a"sister" organization : PASA = Pa Association for Sustainable Ag. They keep an annually updated CSA list for PA and will soon include it on a website. As a certifier we feel very lucky to be able to work with PASA on these sorts of things that we can't do ourselves for whatever reason. PASA holds a wonderful "Farming for the Future" conference at Penn State every year in February. They are great resource for all types of farming models and have done much work for CSAs, Farmers Markets, Food banks and and Farmer-Chef networks. If you're looking for info on CSAs in PA you can call PASA at 814-349-9856 ans ask for Kate or Lauren. In a message dated 10/17/99 4:20:52 PM, cvof@iquest.net writes: << There is no reason why a certifier cannot do promotions, if they have resources and the inclination. On a personal level, I think running a good certification agency s enough of a job in itself. >> Since we have strayed from CSA topics, I will say that I would be delighted to discuss some of these options and models with anyone who is currently dissatisfied with what they see going on. The fact is that many certifiers do not really have a program that fits CSA's and small farms. That doesn't mean they cannot be created. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 13:02:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09306 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01719; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:58:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01641 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.0.215 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 09:57:35 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: share price, etc - request Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 10:23:44 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0784f35571611a9CPIMSSMTPU02@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 723 (snip) >table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes with >the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also don't >look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of >funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they were >dirty.) Plus you could always post a sign about which ones have the most carotene (several years ago - OK, maybe more - Red-cored Chantenay were supposed to be "the" carrot for caroten). (snip >The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the >damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. (snip) >Richard Roth >rfarm >1318 Bruce Street >Chico, CA 95928 >Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . Would you please email me with your "secret" for growing them ? Private post will do if no one else wants that information. And I'm not at the CSA stage - yet - just "practicing" (like doctors do !) on particular favorites of my own ..... Toni Seattle tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 13:23:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09447 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 13:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03013; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:20:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02954 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:20:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 12:20:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910171720.MAA02954@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 18440 invoked from network); 17 Oct 1999 17:20:03 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as004-37.iquest.net (209.43.54.37) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 17 Oct 1999 17:20:03 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Mary Manson" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: share price, etc - request Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 724 I too have had problems with carrots. I can sell them--for sure--but most of my members are used to getting them at regular grocery stores for conventional prices. They are the #1 loss leader in the stores. Besides that the members are mostly people who use carrots for juice and they each can go through 25# a week! No way can I grow that many... Instead we just order them in bulk through a distributor and sell them that way. Running a co-op to supplement what you offer can be very worthwhile. We get soyfoods, dairy products and produce that we cannot supply consistently to our members that way. Next year I'd like to add more beans and grains. Right now all we have is buckwheat, rye and soybeans from local folks. After 15 years I finally gave up on carrots and sweet corn--even though the soils and climate are good for them here. Just too much competition from the larger growers out of state to make it worth my trouble. If I had more land, the right equipment and a walk in I could take over the market here--but it's just not possible for us 5 acre folks to do that. Cal Organic and Bunny Love have us cornered for retail and the babyfood companies who will take the #1s and 2s only offer 9 cents a pound! I am beginning to feel the same way about potatoes which used to be one of our best cash crops. I can't remember who said it, but knowing the market before you plant instead of planting and finding the market is the key. Bunny Love's went down to 13 cents a pound this summer--and people here prefer them--so carrots are not going to make me enough to cover my cost of production. Every region is different--we are best known here for our tomatoes and greens and our oddball veggies. I'd still appreciate growing tips on carrots. Some years bad weather in CA makes carrots worth a whole lot more here and I'd like to be ready if that ever happens! At 10:23 AM 10/17/99 -0700, Mary Manson wrote: >(snip) >>table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes >with >>the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also >don't >>look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of >>funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they >were >>dirty.) > >Plus you could always post a sign about which ones have the most carotene >(several years ago - OK, maybe more - Red-cored Chantenay were supposed to >be "the" carrot for caroten). > >(snip > >>The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the >>damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. >(snip) >>Richard Roth >>rfarm >>1318 Bruce Street >>Chico, CA 95928 >>Ph:(530) 895-1672 >> . > > >Would you please email me with your "secret" for growing them ? Private >post will do if no one else wants that information. And I'm not at the CSA >stage - yet - just "practicing" (like doctors do !) on particular >favorites of my own ..... > >Toni >Seattle >tonihawr@email.msn.com > > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 17 17:12:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11900 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA17471; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:08:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17405 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:08:24 -0500 (CDT) From: LionKuntz@aol.com Received: from LionKuntz@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dZNa023737 (4590); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.655eda83.253b949d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:07:41 EDT Subject: LifeSaviors Worldwide Extinction Epidemic Homepages To: csa-l@prairienet.org, homestead@listserv.oit.unc.edu CC: lkuntz@efn.org, LionKuntz@aol.com, LionKuntz@yahoo.com, SteveKuntz@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 86 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 725 LionKuntz@YAHOO.COM, (lkuntz@EFN.ORG, LionKuntz@AOL.com) offers these homepage addresses for information about the Biotic Holocaust, Sixth Extinction, Mass Extinction Event now underway. Problems to Solve are addressed, solutions are suggested, Action Plan outline is presented. Links to many other informative sites are provided. Copy the http:// address, and paste it into the address bar of your browser. http://www.efn.org/~lkuntz/ LifeSaviors on EFN.ORG http://homepages.msn.com/VolunteerSt/lifesaviors/index.html LifeSaviors on MSN.COM http://hometown.aol.com/LionKuntz/index.html LifeSaviors on AOL.COM http://home.talkcity.com/VolunteerSt/lifesaviors/index.html LifeSaviors on TALKCITY.COM http://users2.50megs.com/lifesaviors/ LifeSaviors on 50MEGS.COM http://users2.50megs.com/lifesaviors/wwwboard/index.html LifeSaviors Open Message Forum for Discussions From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 18 00:32:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15339 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA18791; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:28:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18711 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:28:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (216-224-152-179.stk.jps.net [216.224.152.179]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA20753 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <380AA2DA.4D083180@jps.net> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:32:25 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: One more Non- Profit - Re: Links to Non Profit CSA's with Web Pages. References: <38095369.9C093DA1@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 726 I found another Non Profit link - http://www.gouldfarm.org/program.htm Richard Roth wrote: > Below are web address/links to Non Profit CSA's that have web pages. I > am not sure that all of them are in fact legally recognized Non-Profits, > but those that do not come out and state that they are 501c3 seem to me > to be close to fulfilling the legal description requirements. > > http://darsie.ucdavis.edu/DWS/gmf.html > > http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs/publicinfo/community.html > > http://www.agron.iastate.edu/studentfarm/ > > http://www.permaculture-institute.org/our_farm.html > > http://birch.palni.edu/~mkruse/michaela.html#about > > http://stewardshipcommunity.org/ > > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 18 00:48:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA15420 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 00:48:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA19858; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:45:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from logan.ucdavis.edu (root@logan.ucdavis.edu [169.237.105.35]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19783 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 23:44:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (mrad@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by logan.ucdavis.edu (8.9.3/UCD3.13.12) with ESMTP id VAA03239; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:44:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Rademacher X-Sender: mrad@logan.ucdavis.edu To: Richard Roth cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: Re: Links to Non Profit CSA's with Web Pages. In-Reply-To: <38095369.9C093DA1@jps.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 727 http://studentfarm.ucdavis.edu Here is a new web site to add to Richard's list of links. Matt On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Richard Roth wrote: > Below are web address/links to Non Profit CSA's that have web pages. I > am not sure that all of them are in fact legally recognized Non-Profits, > but those that do not come out and state that they are 501c3 seem to me > to be close to fulfilling the legal description requirements. > > http://darsie.ucdavis.edu/DWS/gmf.html > > http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs/publicinfo/community.html > > http://www.agron.iastate.edu/studentfarm/ > > http://www.permaculture-institute.org/our_farm.html > > http://birch.palni.edu/~mkruse/michaela.html#about > > http://stewardshipcommunity.org/ > > > > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 18 09:15:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18961 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16162; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:12:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from loki.intrepid.net (IDENT:root@intrepid.net [204.71.127.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16053 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 08:11:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.190.163.99] (pm3shep3-163-148.intrepid.net [209.190.163.148]) by loki.intrepid.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA31397 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 09:11:14 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <38095369.9C093DA1@jps.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 21:18:18 -0400 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Allan Balliett Subject: Re: Links to Non Profit CSA's with Web Pages. Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 728 You can add this one, rudimentary as it currently is, also: http:www.claymont.org/csa >http://studentfarm.ucdavis.edu > >Here is a new web site to add to Richard's list of links. > >Matt > > > >On Sat, 16 Oct 1999, Richard Roth wrote: > >> Below are web address/links to Non Profit CSA's that have web pages. I >> am not sure that all of them are in fact legally recognized Non-Profits, >> but those that do not come out and state that they are 501c3 seem to me >> to be close to fulfilling the legal description requirements. >> >> http://darsie.ucdavis.edu/DWS/gmf.html >> >> http://zzyx.ucsc.edu/casfs/publicinfo/community.html >> >> http://www.agron.iastate.edu/studentfarm/ >> >> http://www.permaculture-institute.org/our_farm.html >> >> http://birch.palni.edu/~mkruse/michaela.html#about >> >> http://stewardshipcommunity.org/ >> >> >> >> -- >> Richard Roth >> rfarm >> 1318 Bruce Street >> Chico, CA 95928 >> Ph:(530) 895-1672 >> . >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 18 18:13:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00681 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:13:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10659; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:13:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp2.supernet.com (IDENT:qmailr@smtp2.desupernet.net [204.249.184.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10102 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:06:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 2725 invoked from network); 18 Oct 1999 22:07:22 -0000 Received: from 188-77.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.77) by smtp2.supernet.com with SMTP; 18 Oct 1999 22:07:22 -0000 Message-ID: <380B9ACA.513F246E@mail.cvn.net> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:10:20 -0400 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cecilia Bowman CC: Mary Manson , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: share price, etc - request References: <199910171720.MAA02954@firefly.prairienet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 729 I think we have quite a problem with the story's that I have received that the price is to steep for carrots really I personally have No squall about paying a high price if the flavor is there, I know people are getting two times to three times the price for their veggies and they can not grow enough veggies and the word spreads, now how do we prove more than the taste we have a small machine (if that is the right word) that measures the sugar content they use it on all veggies and fruit and are willing to let everyone use it , also quit a few of my friends are willing to sell on this principle if the produce is measuring high then they can ask for a bonus. Does this make sense I believe it does, The prove is in the pudding !!!!!!!!!!111 Cecilia Bowman wrote: > I too have had problems with carrots. I can sell them--for sure--but most > of my members are used to getting them at regular grocery stores for > conventional prices. They are the #1 loss leader in the stores. Besides > that the members are mostly people who use carrots for juice and they each > can go through 25# a week! No way can I grow that many... Instead we just > order them in bulk through a distributor and sell them that way. Running a > co-op to supplement what you offer can be very worthwhile. We get soyfoods, > dairy products and produce that we cannot supply consistently to our members > that way. Next year I'd like to add more beans and grains. Right now all we > have is buckwheat, rye and soybeans from local folks. > > After 15 years I finally gave up on carrots and sweet corn--even though the > soils and climate are good for them here. Just too much competition from > the larger growers out of state to make it worth my trouble. If I had more > land, the right equipment and a walk in I could take over the market > here--but it's just not possible for us 5 acre folks to do that. Cal > Organic and Bunny Love have us cornered for retail and the babyfood > companies who will take the #1s and 2s only offer 9 cents a pound! > > I am beginning to feel the same way about potatoes which used to be one of > our best cash crops. > > I can't remember who said it, but knowing the market before you plant > instead of planting and finding the market is the key. Bunny Love's went > down to 13 cents a pound this summer--and people here prefer them--so > carrots are not going to make me enough to cover my cost of production. > Every region is different--we are best known here for our tomatoes and > greens and our oddball veggies. > > I'd still appreciate growing tips on carrots. Some years bad weather in CA > makes carrots worth a whole lot more here and I'd like to be ready if that > ever happens! > > At 10:23 AM 10/17/99 -0700, Mary Manson wrote: > >(snip) > >>table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes > >with > >>the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also > >don't > >>look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of > >>funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they > >were > >>dirty.) > > > >Plus you could always post a sign about which ones have the most carotene > >(several years ago - OK, maybe more - Red-cored Chantenay were supposed to > >be "the" carrot for caroten). > > > >(snip > > > >>The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the > >>damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. > >(snip) > >>Richard Roth > >>rfarm > >>1318 Bruce Street > >>Chico, CA 95928 > >>Ph:(530) 895-1672 > >> . > > > > > >Would you please email me with your "secret" for growing them ? Private > >post will do if no one else wants that information. And I'm not at the CSA > >stage - yet - just "practicing" (like doctors do !) on particular > >favorites of my own ..... > > > >Toni > >Seattle > >tonihawr@email.msn.com > > > > > > > > > Cissy Bowman, > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education > Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association > Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ > 8364 S SR 39 > Clayton, IN 46118 > 317-539-4317 > cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 18 18:14:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA00707 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 18:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10725; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA10354 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:10:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:10:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910182210.RAA10354@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 28052 invoked from network); 18 Oct 1999 22:10:33 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as006-204.iquest.net (HELO iq-ind-as005-25.iquest.net) (209.43.56.204) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 18 Oct 1999 22:10:33 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Larry Strite From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: share price, etc - request Cc: Mary Manson , csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 730 A refractometer, right? At 06:10 PM 10/18/99 -0400, Larry Strite wrote: >I think we have quite a problem with the story's that I have received that the >price is to steep for carrots really I personally have No squall about paying a >high price if the flavor is there, I know people are getting two times to three >times the price for their veggies and they can not grow enough veggies and the >word spreads, now how do we prove more than the taste we have a small machine (if >that is the right word) that measures the sugar content they use it on all >veggies and fruit and are willing to let everyone use it , also quit a few of my >friends are willing to sell on this principle if the produce is measuring high >then they can ask for a bonus. Does this make sense I believe it does, The prove >is in the pudding !!!!!!!!!!111 > >Cecilia Bowman wrote: > >> I too have had problems with carrots. I can sell them--for sure--but most >> of my members are used to getting them at regular grocery stores for >> conventional prices. They are the #1 loss leader in the stores. Besides >> that the members are mostly people who use carrots for juice and they each >> can go through 25# a week! No way can I grow that many... Instead we just >> order them in bulk through a distributor and sell them that way. Running a >> co-op to supplement what you offer can be very worthwhile. We get soyfoods, >> dairy products and produce that we cannot supply consistently to our members >> that way. Next year I'd like to add more beans and grains. Right now all we >> have is buckwheat, rye and soybeans from local folks. >> >> After 15 years I finally gave up on carrots and sweet corn--even though the >> soils and climate are good for them here. Just too much competition from >> the larger growers out of state to make it worth my trouble. If I had more >> land, the right equipment and a walk in I could take over the market >> here--but it's just not possible for us 5 acre folks to do that. Cal >> Organic and Bunny Love have us cornered for retail and the babyfood >> companies who will take the #1s and 2s only offer 9 cents a pound! >> >> I am beginning to feel the same way about potatoes which used to be one of >> our best cash crops. >> >> I can't remember who said it, but knowing the market before you plant >> instead of planting and finding the market is the key. Bunny Love's went >> down to 13 cents a pound this summer--and people here prefer them--so >> carrots are not going to make me enough to cover my cost of production. >> Every region is different--we are best known here for our tomatoes and >> greens and our oddball veggies. >> >> I'd still appreciate growing tips on carrots. Some years bad weather in CA >> makes carrots worth a whole lot more here and I'd like to be ready if that >> ever happens! >> >> At 10:23 AM 10/17/99 -0700, Mary Manson wrote: >> >(snip) >> >>table. Either way no one can walk by "the carrot man" (the name changes >> >with >> >>the seasons) without knowing there are carrots at the market. They also >> >don't >> >>look like anything to be found in a store or a bag. They have all kinds of >> >>funny shapes and some are gopher munched on. (Couldn't see that when they >> >were >> >>dirty.) >> > >> >Plus you could always post a sign about which ones have the most carotene >> >(several years ago - OK, maybe more - Red-cored Chantenay were supposed to >> >be "the" carrot for caroten). >> > >> >(snip >> > >> >>The trick I had the most problem with was not selling them, but getting the >> >>damn things to grow. But that is for some other post. >> >(snip) >> >>Richard Roth >> >>rfarm >> >>1318 Bruce Street >> >>Chico, CA 95928 >> >>Ph:(530) 895-1672 >> >> . >> > >> > >> >Would you please email me with your "secret" for growing them ? Private >> >post will do if no one else wants that information. And I'm not at the CSA >> >stage - yet - just "practicing" (like doctors do !) on particular >> >favorites of my own ..... >> > >> >Toni >> >Seattle >> >tonihawr@email.msn.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Cissy Bowman, >> President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education >> Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association >> Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ >> 8364 S SR 39 >> Clayton, IN 46118 >> 317-539-4317 >> cvof@iquest.net > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 10:38:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07273 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA21375; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:38:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21195 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 09:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.155.231] (216-224-155-231.stk.jps.net [216.224.155.231]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA14901 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:36:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38094389.C75687D5@jps.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 07:43:48 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: carrots and markets (was share price, ect) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 731 Posts by Richard, Lucy, and Cecilia clearly illustrate the need to research your market before growing any given crop. Richard farms and markets in Chico, CA, with a year-round market, and a college population. Carrots are particularly bright and attractive on grey winter days. My markets were seasonal, and in areas with retirees and folks who commute an average of an hour one way to work. The markets themselves were different with respect to what sold, and we eventually found ourselves tailoring our load to the market. But, our planting scheme for our CSA where we were trying to feed families, was dramatically different from our planting scheme for restaurants and farmers markets. Marcie From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 13:08:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11223 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06347; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:08:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05998 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:04:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jps.net (216-224-153-61.stk.jps.net [216.224.153.61]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA12740 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <380CA588.4F30CDFE@jps.net> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:08:23 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: How I grow Carrots References: <199910182210.RAA10354@firefly.prairienet.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 732 I live in Northern California in the Sacramento River Valley. Summers are hot and Winters are just chilly - not cold - though with the moisture they can feel miserable, it is rare to have a hard freeze and one year it didn't even frost as far as I could tell. Weeds are the biggest hurdle for me. I follow my spring potatoes, planted in February or March and harvested in June and July, with carrots. Reasons for this is that generally I can do a reasonable job of keeping down the weeds in the potatoes - not perfect - but reasonable. The second reason is that fertility in my potato field is going to be fairly high because I apply plow down - green manure, compost - compost - and compost to the potatoes. As soon as I get the potatoes out of the field I work the ground. The seed bed needs to be really nice, probably the nicest seed bed of anything else I grow. I am not THAT particular, but it is a nice planting bed. I use a garden way planter and taunt string to plant with. The Garden Way carrot plate does an adequate job of planting. I lift the depth gauge all the way up, and let the little chain drag a little dirt over some of the seed. I heard once that carrot seed needs sunlight on the seed for it to germinate. I don't think this is absolutely true, but I do - pretty much - just lay the seed on the surface. The taunt string is a guide for the rows to keep them fairly straight. It really helps that the rows are straight when you are cultivating between the rows. I plant the rows 15 to 18 inches apart. For the next few weeks I keep the soil surface damp. That may mean watering twice a day, but always at least once a day. I usually time my irrigations in the early afternoon, in the heat of the day (and some of these days can be expected to be in the 100's) - 1 to 3 o'clock. I water for an hour, more or less, with overhead sprinklers, just enough that the next morning the ground will still be damp throughout the field. Now comes the tricky part. Weeds germinate first. Weeds grow faster than carrots. You have got to weed the carrots, but have to wait until most all the carrot seed has germinated so you can see the row and the plants are big enough that you don't bury them quite so easily. If you wait too long and you lose sight of the rows of carrots in the weeds - you are done for. So by the 3rd week or so the whole field is weeded. For between the rows I use the Valley Oak Tool Company Wheel Hoe My friend David Grau designed it and has been selling them for over 10 years. If you buy one, and tell him I sent you - I get $20.00 bucks. But they are a great tool anyway, and one tool I find indispensable, and not just for carrots. (The new web site is.) With the wheel hoe I can get within and inch or so of the carrots on both sides, so I have only a narrow strip of 2 to 3 inches to finger pluck, on hands and knees. Some can work that low standing up. I admire them, but I like to get close to the ground. It takes about an hour per 150 foot row to hand weed this way. But you have to seriously try to get every single little tiny weed. Every one! (OK, I admit, I hire a friend to help some if I can.) A few weeks later I hit the row middles one more time with the wheel hoe, then forget about the weeds pretty much, because there are none. As long as there is adequate irrigation they will do fine. They size up enough to harvest in November, but keep growing surprisingly well through light frosts, looking pretty gnarly but still good by mid February. Like I said, they taste better after the nights get chilly and before they start to bolt. The Scarlet Nantes variety have done really well for me. This is as much as I know. I keep telling myself the biggest mistake I can make is to convince myself I know what I am doing. Still, this is the 4th or 5th year I have successfully grow a carrot crop, fingers still crossed. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 14:00:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12626 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10668; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:53:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10209 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:50:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-120.premier1.net [207.149.54.120]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id KAA18743; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910191745.KAA18743@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: Cecilia Bowman Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 10:54:12 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: share price, etc - request CC: Mary Manson , csa-l@prairienet.org X-Confirm-Reading-To: mjb@mail.premier1.net X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 733 > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 17:10:34 -0500 (CDT) > To: Larry Strite > From: Cecilia Bowman > Subject: Re: share price, etc - request > Cc: Mary Manson , csa-l@prairienet.org e of > > >> > > >> Cissy Bowman, > >> President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education > >> Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association > >> Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ > >> 8364 S SR 39 > >> Clayton, IN 46118 > >> 317-539-4317 > >> cvof@iquest.net > > > > > > > Cissy Bowman, > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education > Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association > Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ > 8364 S SR 39 > Clayton, IN 46118 > 317-539-4317 > cvof@iquest.net > > Interesting that carrots for a lot of you are a no money maker. When I was first mentioning planting for our CSA as opposed to planting for our farmer's market I was thinking of our carrots as one of our more profitable crops. Our carrots are planted very intensively: a four foot 150 ft to 200 ft long row with approximately 8-10 rows of carrots in them. Weeding is done initially and it is by hand, but after the first weeding the crop canopy shades out everything else. We get approximately $ 3-4.00 a square foot this way. Our carrots never get too large and we have quite a reputation for our wonderful tasting carrots. I have people traveling miles (following us from one market to another just to get our carrots). We sell our carrots for 1.50 a bunch and a bunch is 6 small carrots. We go through at least a hundred or so at our markets and more if we bring in more. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 15:01:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14200 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16563; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:53:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f307.hotmail.com [209.185.130.96]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16436 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 13:52:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 9471 invoked by uid 0); 19 Oct 1999 18:51:59 -0000 Message-ID: <19991019185158.9470.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 151.121.26.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:51:58 PDT X-Originating-IP: [151.121.26.5] From: "Kenneth Barnes" To: rfarm@jps.net, csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: How I grow Carrots Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:51:58 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 Hi Richard, Thanks for the growing points on carrots. Sounds like you have mastered the art well. I find carrots to do better when seeded in September in North Carolina. Why not ask your friend David (Oak Valley Tools)to offer the $20 to the customer in the form of a discount/rebate if the customer mentions your name as a reference? That way you would be helping the whole CSA community. Just an idea. -Kenneth J Barnes The Shepherd's Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 23:19:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22110 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04573; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:19:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA04457 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:17:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27434 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 03:17:47 -0000 Received: from i48-17-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.6.24) (216.26.6.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 03:17:47 -0000 Message-ID: <380D3481.1F15@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:18:28 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paorganic@aol.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Orgnaic Farms/CSA list References: <0.3e393e18.253a63d1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 735 Paorganic@aol.com wrote: "I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people who call the office asking where they can buy local organic food. Our organization educates and certifies organic producers. We are not involved in marketing. Some members would like us to be involved in marketing, but many say that the last thing they want is someone calling them up in July and asking if they can come to the farm and buy a few quarts of beans. Anyway, the bottom line is we are completely farmer-supported. ($-wise) We would have to charge higher certification fees in order to make this type of information available to anyone who calls and figure out which of our 420 members want us to give out the info (Certification files are strictly confidential.) Currently, it's not practical for me to go through all the files to see who is doing what in a certain locality. Also, we don't really ask for that sort of info. It's just not what we do. State Departments of Ag generally keep an extensive (free) list of farmers markets in the state -- that would be a good place to add CSAs. The state IS in the business of promoting agriculture. In fact, so many people bug us about giving out info, that we applied for and received some funds to compile an Organic Directory. We're working on it, but staffing is a probelm and we can only list people who send in their listing forms, not our entire membership. And there are CSAs who would not be listed with us anyway because they aren't certified organic. I requested funds to put the info on the internet, also. In the meantime, sorry about the brick wall. Leslie Zuck Executive Director Pa Certified Organic" *********************** In my experience, if you clarify your goal first, it increases your chances that you'll get where you want to go and be happy when you get there. If you want to compile a CSA directory, do it. If you want to compile an Organic Grower directory, do that. Then again, maybe you might compile a directory of small growers - say, everyone shorter then 4' ;) - which would include organic and non-organic growers. I suggest listing farms alphabetically and also by type (CSA, farm stand, grower's market, U-pick, etc - a farm could be in many categories), by major crop and by geographical location. You could indicate organic practices or not in the alphabetic listing, which is probably the best place for the most extensive information about the farm. The other lists could be just the farm name. Oregpn Tilth (Oregon's resident certifier) does an incomplete version of this almost every year (as you are finding out it is a very rought job!). Even with the errors it is still a very valuable resource for people looking for crops to buy, for whol;esalers and retailers looking for product and for growers looking for each other. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 23:42:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22308 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA06804; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:42:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA06737 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:41:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 4349 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 03:41:40 -0000 Received: from i48-17-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.6.24) (216.26.6.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 03:41:40 -0000 Message-ID: <380D3A1A.5508@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:42:23 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LionKuntz@aol.com CC: csa email list Subject: Re: I work for an organic certifier and we do not give out information to people References: <0.c99b6857.253a91d1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 736 LionKuntz@aol.com wrote (in part): "Anyone who thinks that certifiers are not in marketting has their head on cockeyed, because that's all they exist for. They make it possible for farmers to market CERTIFIED organic merchandise, stores and distributors to market CERTIFIED organic produce, and manufacturers to process CERTIFIED organic products. The CERTIFICATION is intimately coupled with marketing, and where organic marketing can exist without certification, certifiers cannot exist without marketing. There is room for competition in the MARKETPLACE and the unfit certifiers should lose their MARKET-share as farmers take their hard-earned money to where it buys them more services and less hypocracy..." ******************************** It depends on how you define marketing. Some certifiers have contractual arrangements with growers they certify to market the certified crops, for which they get fees/percentages. I think that is unquestionably marketing. Many certifiers derive income only incidental to marketing (e.g. their certification fees are based on annual sales of the grower.) I think this is not marketing. I have contended for years that certification is for the purchaser of foods, not the grower. I argued this for years as a board member of Oregon Tilth. The benefit to the grower is only valuable to the extent that the certification is valuable to the buyer. When food buyers lose confidence in certified organically grown food as a superior product (for whatever reason), certification will be a waste of money. Which is not to say that growing organically will lose its value. I contend that most certifiers exist to assure food buyers of a product grown to known standards. They let people know what their standards are because if they didn't certification wouldn't assure people of anything. They let growers know they are ready to certify growers who meet their standards because if they didn't growers would not know of the opportunity and what is required. Is this marketing? I don't think so. Providing information is not always marketing. Providing information aimed at convincing people that organically grown food is somehow better than conventionally grown food is probably marketing. To say that certifiers are marketers because they cannot exist without marketing assumes that they are the only ones who can build a market for organics. If the success of organics was dependend upon certifiers marketing there never would have been an organic movement. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 19 23:56:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA22430 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07893; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:55:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA07820 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 1999 22:55:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 8811 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 03:55:37 -0000 Received: from i48-17-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.6.24) (216.26.6.24) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 03:55:37 -0000 Message-ID: <380D3D60.79E5@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 20:56:22 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paorganic@aol.com CC: csa email list Subject: Certification fees information to people References: <0.24c99c33.253b1463@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 737 Paorganic@aol.com wrote (in part): "I am not familiar with Tilth's fees, but if we could get away with charging "exorbitant" fees, we would certainly be able to include marketing as one of our services." ******** I am familiar with Oregon Tilth's fees. There are a num,ber of things I'm not threilled with at Oregon Tilth, but none are substantial. Certification fees are a perennial area of dispute. They are a significant cost to those with smaller operations, but they are in no way excessive. What a lot of Tilth certified growers don't realize is that something like half of the growers certified by Tilth don't pay enough in fees to cover the costs of certifying them! These costs are covered by the fees of larger growers, processors and retailers in THEIR fees. If you don't like the fees, don't certify. About half the CSAs in the Portland Metro Area don't certify, although I believe they would all qualify. It amazes me that many growers like the advantage of being certified but complain about the fees. When was the last time you blamed the movie theater for expensive popcorn? Nobody makes you buy it. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 20 13:43:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03461 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05272; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:42:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05098 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:40:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 20733 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 17:40:46 -0000 Received: from i48-03-29.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.157) (216.26.2.157) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 17:40:46 -0000 Message-ID: <380DFEC4.46B@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:41:31 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Aaron Silverman CC: csa email list Subject: Re: Oregon Tilth References: <199910200413.VAA26896@guppy.pond.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 738 [If quoting the message we are replying to is to set context, why do most people put the quote at the end?] Aaron Silverman wrote (in part): "Hello Will, I raise produce, cut & edible flowers, & pastured broilers outside Eugene. I have lurked on the CSA-List for a while now... I have read with interest the recent thread about certifiers and their marketing obligations (or lack thereof). I was especially intrested in your response. 'I contend that most certifiers exist to assure food buyers of a product grown to known standards. They let people know what their standards are because if they didn't certification wouldn't assure people of anything. They let growers know they are ready to certify growers who meet their standards because if they didn't growers would not know of the opportunity and what is required. Is this marketing? I don't think so. Providing information is not always marketing.' Although everything we raise is organic, with the exception of the broilers due to currently uneconomical sources of organic feed, we are not certified. This is due to several reasons, the two main ones being economic and philosophical. Our market is primarily restaurants, whom we strive to create relationships beyond the normal purveyor-client role. As of yet, nobody has insisted on having an independent party reassure them that our products are raised cleanly. I have watched the development of Oregon Tilth over the last 10 years or so, and have had serious reservations about the role of the commercial 3rd party certifier. Much of Tilth's structure is neither friendly nor helpful to either the small or beginning farmer. Although the policy may have changed since I last inquired about standards 2-3 years ago, at the time a copy of the standards and an application cost around $75. While there are certainly costs to putting together & mailing this information, it is nowhere near $75. Neither, I was informed, was the information available at any library or web site. Again, this may have changed, but seems to be in contradiction to the vision of certifier as information assistant. Your comment that certification is for the food purchaser is right on the money. The growers' best interests are not necessarily the certifiers' best interests, wherein lies the potential train wreck of the national standards. Aaron Creative Growers Aaron Silverman 88741 Torrence Rd. Noti, Or. 97461 Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry" **************************** Aaron, You bring up several good points. What I left out of my exposition on certifiers was that certificatrion is only necessary when there is no solid connection between the producer and the buyer (no sense of community). If you know your grower you don't need a third party telling you about her/him. It is only when you don't know the producer very well that you want some neutral person or organization's assurance. This is always a poor substitute, but with our present food distribution system, almost unavoidable for the vast majority of people. Unfortunately, as "the organic industry" gets more and more commercialized we begin to distrust the certifiers, as we distrust government agencies. We wonder if their interests are our interests. This need for connection, for mutual trust, for re-knitting the mutual trust between those who produce the food and those who eat it, is to me one of the principle values of CSA. It is also why I am so insistant that to split youir operation into a CSA and something else (direct market, restaurants, etc.) is to stop being a CSA. At the heart of CSA, the thing that makes the operation a CSA, is one basic agreement: the members/subscribers (we call them Harvest Shareholders) agree to put up the resources (time, money, tools, labor, etc.) needed to run the farm for the season/year. The grower(s) agree that they will do their best to grow food. Whatever is harvested belongs to the supporters. We all share the risk of bad years and glory in the bounty of good years. We trust each other: they will provide work/money, we will exert our skills, knowledge and efforts to growing. This trust MUST NOT be violated! The trap of a split operation is: when resources are unexpectedly limited, where do they get allocated? E.g. if irrigation water is short do you water the CSA crops or the market crops? There is NO answer which is fair to the Harvest Shareholders. If you sacrifice the market crops in order to grow for the CSA, ultimately you risk loosing the farm, and you leave the Harvest Shareholders with no connection. If you irrigate the market crops and sacrifice the CSA crops you are cheating the Harvest Shareholders. You may want to run some kind of hybrid operation which sells to subscribers as well as other markets, but I don't believe tyhat kind of operation is a CSA. That does not mean it is a "bad" operation, or wrong, or anything negative, simply that it is not a CSA: the risk is not shared equitably. I encourage growers to explore any kind of combination of markets they think will work for them. If we have learned anything as growers we have learned that diversity is not an option, it is essential. This goes for farm marketing as much as for anything else. I salute all of you who are foolish, idealistic and brave enough to try and make a go of farming. It is a very tough way of life. But I do wish split operations would stop calling themselves CSAs. To your points about Tilth: (Keep in mind I serve on the Adjudication Committee for Tilth, have served on the Certification Committee and the Board, including a few years as President.) I believe Oregon Tilth is one of the finest certification organizations in the world. It's integrity is unquestioned, It's commitment to assuring those who eat organically grown food that the food has been grown, processed, packaged, labelled, shipped and displayed in compliance with meaningful standards is unsurpassed by any organization anywhere. This commitment has kept Tilth at the forefront of innovation in developing standards for growers, processors, handlers and retaiolers for more than two decades. I take no credit at all for this - my role has always been one of support. The work has been done by hundreds of skilled and dedicated people, people like Yvonne Frost, Harry McCormack, Alan Kapuler, Lynne Cody and scores of other highly competent people to numerous to mention. Having said that, it is also true that I have some disagreements with Tilth. The biggest one is that Tilth is moving heavily into international distribution and "mainstreaming" organic growing. I think this is a serious mistake. I also think that, generally, they do not give enough assistance to smaller growers. I believe this stems from two restraints: insufficient staff (a constant problem with non-profits), and a focus on processors, distribution and supporting large producers. I think this is a natural outgrowth of Tilth's support for internationalization of organic distribution. Their justification is "When you play with the big guys..." I don't thing we should be playing with the big guys, and I don't belive we need to. Big is what got us into this mess. Of course, I don't think you can grow 100 acres of corn and call it organic, no matter what you do to the soil and the crop, so you can tell I'm a heretic. (perhaps this is another of my hot buttons?) I've been associated with TIlth in one way or another for about 12 years. In the beginning of that relationship I found Tilth to be very supportive of small growers. I have been in discussions where certification fees have been discussed and wathced the agonizing about how to keep fees for smaller growers low without overloading larger growers fees. (In later years that has been much less of a problem because processor fees are so much larger that it is easier to use a small p[ercentage of their fees to subsidize small growers fees.) I have seen Tilth spend an amazing amount of time intervening wihth the state or with the federal government (even one time with a the European Union) on behalf of small growers. Even so, I think that now a lot of that has fallen by the wayside. In areas where there is a challenge to the integrity of Tilth standards or practices I find that the organization will still go to the wall for a grower, no matter what size, but much of the answering questions and simpler support is gone. I think that is not a good allocation of resources. Buy the way, it does cost roughly $75 to produce and distribute a copy of the Certification Packet. For one thing, the Standards and Guidelines are printed in small quantities because standards are updated pretty often, and the collatral materials change all the time. It also takes staff time to stuff the packets and send them out, and you can't mail them for 33 cents. And while keeping current versions of the Stasndards and Guidelines, Transitional Document, Brand Names List, etc. at libraries would be both very expensive as well as an administrative nightmare, I do find it unacceptable that the information is not available at the web site. --------------- By the way, we also keep some birds (chickens, ducks and geese), though not for slaughter. We sell the eggs (you can't believe the market for duck eggs - we get $2.40 a dozen wholesale and can't supply the demand!), but have the birds primarily for pest control. Good growing, Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 20 13:59:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05098 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07082; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:59:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07011 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 12:59:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 26030 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1999 17:59:00 -0000 Received: from i48-03-29.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.157) (216.26.2.157) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1999 17:59:00 -0000 Message-ID: <380E030C.3044@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:59:48 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SCook21809@aol.com CC: csa email list Subject: Re: Certification vs CSA: References: <0.c04729fd.253f2868@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 739 Art, Pretty much my feelings, too. (for a fuller exposition, see my reply to Aaron Silverman - "Re: Oregon Tilth") I do have a question though: your second paragraph starts "This civil disobedience has caused ripple effects in the local economy." I understand civil disobediance to be the purposful, public violation of a law, ordanance or regulation for the purpose of drawing public awareness to the rule with the object of eliminating that rule. Deciding not to certify is not civil disobedience, I think. Saying you are certified and/or organic if you are not in order to draw attention to the laws and promote elimination of or change in the laws which govern the use of those words in labelling and advertising would be civil disobedince, but not simply deciding not to certify. As for the loss of market of the restaurants, perhaps they should cultivate more trust in their customers - perhaps including on their menu and signs information about the growers they buy from, and the growing techniques those growers use. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 20 16:07:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09352 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 16:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19673; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:07:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19573 for ; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 15:06:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from premier1 (red-1-165.premier1.net [207.149.54.165]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id NAA08795; Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910202001.NAA08795@premier1.premier1.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: mjb@premier1.net To: osalt@teleport.com Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 13:09:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Oregon Tilth CC: csa email list X-Confirm-Reading-To: mjb@mail.premier1.net X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 740 > Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 10:41:31 -0700 > From: Will Newman II > Reply-to: osalt@teleport.com > Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust > To: Aaron Silverman > Cc: csa email list > Subject: Re: Oregon Tilth > [If quoting the message we are replying to is to set context, why do > most people put the quote at the end?] > > Aaron Silverman wrote (in part): > > "H > > > > > > > k > > > > > > > > > I > > > --------------- >Dear Will, I agree that the term CSA is a term that is applied loosely. On our brochure we do not proclaim to be one but rather a subscription farm. Unfortunately CSA has become the "brand" name for a wide range of operations. Here in Washington there seems to be very little acknowledgement that what most of us "CSAers" do is quite different from the original concept. We operate with the assumption that our members have joined a farm that has agreed to provide a certain amount of vegetables on a weekly basis. If we for some reason cannot provide the amount of vegetables we have promised for that week we find supplementation. The risk is ours not the members. It is a business. When the season is a great one, then market value of produce goes down and the shares get larger and the members benefit. That is only fair considering they are taking a risk by putting their hard earned money up front for next years vegetables. However, since I am a greedy sort and I also grow much more than my members could eat I plan my yields to accomodate the farmers markets. More than half of my income comes from the veggies, eggs, fruits and poultry I sell there. My members always get the benefits of the best. After all they trust me. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 21 14:01:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26855 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01642; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:58:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01086 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:51:52 -0500 (CDT) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dRUA0n_WRr (4571) for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.91ccc80a.2540ac98@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:51:20 EDT Subject: Re: Certification vs CSA: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 Will, I truly enjoyed your reply to Aaron Silverman. It is enlightening to get responses and insights from committed people like yourself. I am not alone in honoring you and the many others who not only face the challenges of growing and marketing organic foods, but you also devote the time to actively participate in and provide leadership for the administration of the organic movement. I apologize for my sloppy reference to civil disobedience. I completely agree that the farmer is not trying to eliminate the rules of certification by choosing not to certify. It is the rippling effect of that choice that raises the opportunity for civil disobedience. The restaurants and groceries who have enjoyed supplies from certified growers who have chosen not to recertify continue to purchase and sell their produce without full disclosure that the grower is no longer certified. Local buyers want to support the local agriculture. They expect to find that farms produce in the organic section of their grocery or served by exclusive restaurants. The purveyor knows how the produce is grown. The locals know how the produce is grown. So the certification is much less important than the supply. The facts outweigh the law so the customers find the produce they are looking for where they expect to see it. The signage hasn't changed. The growing methods haven't changed. Only the costs of the third party endorsement have changed. Of course this raises concerns about new uncertified growers coming in who want equal pricing of their produce. It hasn't happened yet. I believe the current practice will only create a double standard which is what certification tries to resolve. In the wake of the national standards fiasco, people are loosing confidence in the certified organic label. I offer these observations of behaviors. I'm not judging them or encouraging them. I'm simply noticing them... Absolute truth is humanly impossible. Because humans all have self interests. I would like to discuss CSAs as split operations. But I must get back to my cover cropping now. Kind regards, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Oct 21 21:03:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04105 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08588; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:02:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08234 for ; Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:57:35 -0500 (CDT) From: LionKuntz@aol.com Received: from LionKuntz@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 2FCEa09341 (6098); Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <0.795bc3f0.25410f5f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:52:47 EDT Subject: Connecting Ecological Synergy to Species Preservation To: osalt@teleport.com, cgrowers@pond.net CC: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL NetMail version 2.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 742 The Connection of Ecological Synergy to Species Preservation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are two main kinds of farming in the world, using land equal to the size of the entire continent of South America for exclusively human use. One is modern commercial farming and the other is third-world slash and burn subsistance farming. Both forms of widespread agriculture are deadly to species biodiversity. Modern agriculture, often called "green revolution" is: oil-intensive; pollution-intensive; creates despoiled farmlands through hardpan formation, salts and heavy metals accumulations; sterilization of the soil life through chemical applications; leaching of poisons into the water tables at the same time depleting the subsurface waters by over-pumping; leaking polluting chemicals plus over-concentrated nutrients into the surface waters of streams, rivers, estuaries; and polluting the open genepools with laboratory freaks of genetically modified frankenstein experiments. Modern Agriculture is the worst pollution generation industry on Earth, many times larger than the next nearest competitor for this dubious honor. Slash and burn agriculture is killing the tropics from shear force of numbers, burning down the last strongholds of terrestrial diversity at the rate of an acre per second. At the present rates, conservative estimates of 30,000 species are being killed off per year, and that rate is accelorating. Unless an alternative of higher yield agriculture is introduced quickly, the burgeoning human population will continue advancing upon every habitat remnant left on Earth. Preserving habitat from present and expected future encroachment requires re-examination of agricultural productivity, and agricultural demands on the environment. Ecological Synergy claims that it can outproduce every known agricultural system, freeing up at least half of present agricultural lands for restoration as habitat and greenhouse gas impoundment as forests. Ecological Synergy is totally compatible with sustainable practices which have been known and used for centuries, and in many respects looks similar to Organic Farming as described half a century ago by J.I. Rodale in his book "Pay Dirt". Do not let the looks fool you -- it is NOT what is the same which is the important thing, BUT WHAT IS DIFFERENT! Pay attention to the differences. Ecological Synergy produces crops even when it is fallow! Where organic farming must sacrifice a season growing a green manure crop for plowdown to fertilize the next "real crop", ecological synergy is enriching the growing soil while harvesting mushrooms from straw, chicken/duck/fish food (worms) are being harvested while converting the mushroom compost into worm castings, the plants grown in the castings are producing salable parts for cash crops plus consumable parts for the livestock. Every part of the Ecological Synergy systems has been seen, works, is proven from decades or centuries of real world trials worldwide. What is different is the combinations and sequences -- these are new and different. The word SYNERGY means that there are emergent properties in the whole which cannot be predicted by the properties of the parts. Synergy is a real word, describing a real set of phenomena -- there are some things you could never have guessed by looking at the parts in isolation. Ecological Synergy is a genuine example of SYNERGY -- it catches you totally by surprise by being many times more productive than its near cousins in the organic farming community who do some of the same things but never enough to break the synergy barrier. Ecological Synergy is also a low-debt system, requiring much less land, much less equipment to buy and maintain, and thus requires less money to finance. Less debt is less risk, is less stress, is more quality mental time which can be used to improve productivity as well as improve activism results. Every single practicer of Ecological Synergy, and LifeSaviors, is guaranteed to be an environmental activist. Ecological Synergy was designed to finance environmental activism. It was created specifically to be a force to change the path of global biotic holocaust. Make no mistake, Ecological Synergy is proven by the very biodiversity it is dedicated to saving. The tropics are the highest productive zone on earth: there are ten times the productivity even though the climate conditions guarantees that soil nutrients will be constantly lost through 70 to 200 inches of drenching rain annually. Every denuded patch has its fertility washed away within two to three years if land is cleared for slash and burn farming, and this is a consistant fact regardless of the soil particle origins (volcanic, metamorphic, sedementary rock underlayment). The soil is guaranteed impoverished unless it has a synergistic level of life -- slash and burn farming, like plain organic farming, does not provide enough food chain webs to attain the level of synergy which the natural biodiversity has displayed for many hundreds of millions of years. Without sufficient biodiversity the soil is worthless, but with synergy it produces a constantly eroding output of nutrients without breaks for winter rest or even breaks during the entire set of ice ages. Life is producing its own fertility at rates that throw every scientific and university theory of fertility in the trashcan. Learn this one fact: Science has no theory or explanation for the fertility of the tropics, and is in no position to have any opinion on Ecological Synergy. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I told you how to produce enough, not only to feed humanity, but enough to feed the whole biosphere for as long as you choose to continue to exist as a species. I also posted suffient website links to the Sixth Extinction. I am not a liar, nor am I wrong. These are serious problems to solve and serious answers are staring you in the face. Thank You for your interest, Sincerely, Lion Kuntz EMAIL: LKuntz@efn.com Nuts and Bolts of Ecological Synergy More Info on the Institute Return to Life Saviors Homepage Links to LifeSaviors, Ecological Synergy Sites http://www.efn.org/~lkuntz/ ... http://homepages.msn.com/VolunteerSt/lifesaviors/index.html ... http://hometown.aol.com/LionKuntz/index.html ... http://home.talkcity.com/VolunteerSt/lifesaviors/index.html ... http://users2.50megs.com/lifesaviors/ ... http://users2.50megs.com/lifesaviors/wwwboard/index.html From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 22 11:00:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13278 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 11:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05043; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 10:00:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04571 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:55:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [216.224.149.38] (216-224-155-222.stk.jps.net [216.224.155.222]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA16908 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 07:55:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0.91ccc80a.2540ac98@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:02:28 -0800 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Certification vs CSA: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 743 Art and Will, I'm swamped right now ,too, but Iwould also like to discuss split operations within the philospophy of CSA. Marcie Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 22 16:00:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20940 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:00:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA03077; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:59:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from yoda.fdt.net (root@yoda.fdt.net [209.212.128.32]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02550 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 14:53:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gnv.fdt.net (port-45-ts1-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.204]) by yoda.fdt.net with ESMTP id PAA02030; Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:53:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3810C190.85486840@gnv.fdt.net> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:55:03 -0400 From: Alan Keitt Reply-To: askeitt@gnv.fdt.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l Subject: [Fwd: Certification vs CSA:] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1748D7FD8A7303419966387D" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 744 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1748D7FD8A7303419966387D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------1748D7FD8A7303419966387D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3810C00F.90FA50B0@gnv.fdt.net> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:48:39 -0400 From: Alan Keitt Reply-To: askeitt@gnv.fdt.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Certification vs CSA: References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello to the list, I think the splitting issue is a very interesting one. My wife and I founded Plowshares CSA and are perennial core group members (but she is the left ventricle). We are the only CSA that I know of in Florida - I would be delighted to be proved wrong on this. Our farmer is very active in the Farmer's Markets and has helped found two of them. She has quit wholesaling and now does two markets a week and the CSA (70 shares, 90 member families). One really nice feature of this arrangement is that we use the markets as pickup sites and most of our members will buy from other vendors things that we don't offer (breads, honey, berries,etc) As a result we have a multiplier effect on two very important venues for local agriculture. A good portion of her non CSA sales are cut flowers but she also has a good measure of extra greens etc. I think that having the additional market outlet allows her some flexiblity and avoids a glut for the CSA bags on some items. She can also offer flowers as an optional extra cost item for CSA members. Our season is the mirror image of the northern one. We have just gotten the fall crops planted and will begin our 36 week pickup schedule in the first week of November. This is our fourth growing season and we have yet to get hurt by a bad freeze. We are in north Florida and get freezes every year. In the field green houses and judicious picking have saved our tender crops and the rest is pretty hardy stuff. I hope that the issues of how growers handle the finances of split operations will come up. Best wishes from a long lurker, Alan Keitt Plowshares CSA --------------1748D7FD8A7303419966387D-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 24 12:10:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12379 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 12:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02819; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:09:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02416 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 11:03:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bronty.excite.com ([199.172.153.112]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991024160327.JYFZ29876.ewey.excite.com@bronty.excite.com>; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:03:27 -0700 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: anneb@angelfire.com, sandehill@juno.com, pastpat@thepoint.net, DBERGER@THF.COM, amrmeb@ime.net, savage@alltel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net, alex1house@aol.com Cc: nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, wellingh@earlham.edu, JRicha1840@aol.com, larsoch@earlham.edu, kdlockwo@seidata.com, martins@tusco.net, waldenfarm@sprintmail.com, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com Subject: E-mail of Top Officals-WTO/GMO Message-Id: <940781007.3096.191@excite.com> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 09:03:27 PDT X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 209.57.149.202 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 745 Here are the personal email addresses of several important men in the globalization process. Merci de faire circuler et de diffuser largement. The World Trade Organization is the star attraction in the "Millennium Trade Round" in Seattle Nov. 30th. Mike Moore is the new Secretary-General of the WTO. (OMC) His address is mike.moore@wto.org That simple. (he answers his email) Perhaps you'd like to wish him "Bon Voyage" to Seattle! MONSANTO BOARD'S EMAIL ADDRESSES: Write Monsanto! Monsanto is the leader in "life sciences" technology, we're sure you have a strong opinion on the subject. The following are the personal, corporate email addresses of the chairman of the board of Monsanto etc. so if you wish, you can now tell THEM exactly how YOU feel. BE POLITE! Robert B. Shapiro, is the chairman of the board and chief executive officer of Monsanto. His address is: rbshap@ccmail.monsanto.com (he answers his email) Richard U. De Schutter is the chief administrative officer of Monsanto His address is: rudesc@ccmail.monsanto.com (he answers his email ) Jacobus F,.M. Peters is a member of the board's finance, dividend and public policy committee. His address is: jfm.peters@tip.nl (he answers his email) We couldn't find Mickey Kantor's email. (ex member of Clinton's cabinet he's on Monsanto's board) Here's all we got: phone. 001 202 263 3295 fax. 001 202 263 3460 Perhaps you have friends who would also like to make their feelings known to Mr. Moore, Mr. Shapiro & Co., please send these addresses on to all of those (mailing lists, friends, organizations etc.) you feel would make good use of them. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Oct 24 21:51:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17217 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 21:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA10265; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:49:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09838 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 20:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [207.149.187.41] (pAp41.pond.net [207.149.187.41]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA13061 for ; Sun, 24 Oct 1999 18:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910250133.SAA13061@guppy.pond.net> Subject: Re: CSA definition/split operations Date: Sun, 24 Oct 99 18:51:23 -0700 x-sender: cgrowers@mail.pond.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Aaron Silverman cc: "csa email list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 746 Looks like I hit a raw spot. Interesting to see my note posted to the list, as it was sent to Will alone. However, as it has sprouted discussion I shouldn't be too upset I suppose. >From Will's response: >This need for connection, for mutual trust, for re-knitting the mutual >trust between those who produce the food and those who eat it, is to me >one of the principle values of CSA. It is also why I am so insistant >that to split youir operation into a CSA and something else (direct >market, restaurants, etc.) is to stop being a CSA. Whether a CSA can remain being defined as such if the operation sells to those outside the CSA arraingement seems pedantic, but with practical implications. We have never defined ourselves as a CSA, or even a Community Farm. We have a truly diversified operation, working with both plants and animals, with individual customers as well as "institutions" (resaurants). For us & OUR SYSTEM (philosophical, ecological, economical, etc.) a formalized CSA neither appeals nor works. Rather, we created from the outset a "subscription service." This, we tell our customers, is an informal relationship whereby a season's subscription affords them a box of mixed produce & fruit each week, for 20-23 weeks. Cut flower shares are available either seperately or in conjunction with the vegetable subscription. We are very forthcoming that the produce available in the boxes is our B quality goods, as all our A goods go to our restaurants. None of our customers has ever complained - several remark every year that even our Bs are better than what they see at the store or even at market. It is a secondary market for us, and defined as such from the outset. Its place in our system helps us avoid the "limited resource trap" Will referred to. The extremely high quality standards we place on our goods going to chefs necessitates a certain level of "waste," or goods that fall below the acceptable threshold. So long as we keep production levels high enough to ensure a minimum of "waste" we have goods for the boxes. Does this mean the reverse is true, that a formalized CSA can turn its overproduction into restaurant sales? Perhaps, although due to the demands of product & personalities it can be a rougher fit that farmer's markets. The practical implications of whether a split operation can be defined as a CSA rests entirely on the SYSTEM - how it's defined & implemented. As I noted in my original post - we market by relationship first, then product. When the product is of high quality, it speaks for itself. All that is left then is relationship, regardless of the type of market. Trust develops from the relationship, the connection, not the product. And mutual trust is the glue that bonds producer & customer, and allows the inevitable mishaps and slipups to be minor and workable (hopefully). Aaron Creative Growers Aaron Silverman 88741 Torrence Rd. Noti, Or. 97461 Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Oct 25 14:51:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29069 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27765; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from agency6.state.ky.us (agency6.state.ky.us [162.114.120.27]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27106 for ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 13:44:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Anna.Sidebottom@kyagr.com Received: by agency6.state.ky.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:43:22 -0400 Message-ID: <6E56C6C59E63D311A0D800805F6FEDCDAC3651@agency10.state.ky.us> To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: FW: catnip Date: Mon, 25 Oct 1999 14:30:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="x-user-defined" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id NAA27108 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 747 -----Original Message----- From: barth stoner [mailto:charger@centuryinter.net] Sent: Monday, October 25, 1999 1:29 PM To: anna.sidebottom@kyagr.com Subject: catnip Dear Anna, I have been trying to find out where I can buy Catnip on a wholesale basis. Can you help? Thank you. Sincerely, Barth Stoner ~~Anyone know of a place that has catnip? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Oct 26 22:34:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28766 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 22:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA13658; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:33:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ux8.cso.uiuc.edu (root@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.44]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA13053 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:26:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [130.126.25.75] (rochester-75.slip.uiuc.edu [130.126.25.75]) by ux8.cso.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19428 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:26:16 -0500 (CDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: jbarclay@mail.prairienet.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199910260700.CAA01900@firefly.prairienet.org> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:28:23 -0500 To: CSA Networking List From: John Barclay Subject: Re: CSA-L digest 345 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 748 CSA List Members, Because of time constraints, I'm no longer going to maintain the CSA-L email list. I'm looking for organizations that would like to take it over; either on their own email list server or on the existing one hosted by Prairienet. I think the list belongs in the hands of a CSA related organization rather than an individual in order to give it stability. Maintaining the list requires no special technical expertise, simply subscribing and unsubscribing users who have trouble doing this themselves. This takes about a 1/2 hour a month and is done via an email to the list server software or through a web form. Maintaining the list web site requires little or no work, depending on how up to date you keep the FAQ. If you are interested in maintaining the list, send an email to entire list which covers some or all of the following points: - what organization you are with - how you would approach maintaining the list - other information you think is relevant If more than one organization is interested, we will have some discussion on the list and take a vote. There will be no interruption of service for the list. I will maintain it until someone else takes it over. Thanks, John Barclay, CSA-L list maintainer From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Oct 27 14:45:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13248 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA25085; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:43:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24669 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:38:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dan (bsg-ma2a-118.ix.netcom.com [209.110.252.118]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17899 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <009e01bf20aa$836310a0$76fc6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: Subject: Wa. CSA or Farms Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 14:38:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 749 I am going to be in the Seattle area for approx. 2 weeks (till Nov. 11). I would like (and MAY) be able to visit those interested in visitors. I am a CSA owner/operator in Massachusetts. The business is finally closed down for the season and this trip is actually a vacation. My best friend lives in Redmond. She is not especially farmy although a good sport and actually an excellent cook, meaning, she likes fresh veggies. So I might be able to talk her into a farm tour. Distance will matter in that while I am on vacation she is not and will have her regular schedule to deal with. Question do any of you count as members/customer residents of Redmond? Who among you has a farm stand or does farmers markets along with or instead of CSA? I ask because I keep trying to get my friend connected to a farm, like I said she is an excellent cook. But I know from running a CSA and from being her friend for 13 years that she is not an ideal member in the coming to farm to pick up stuff type if it was at all a long drive. But she would be a good farm stand customer (make her own schedule) or possibly a farmer's market customer if there is one in or near Redmond. Well thank-you. I will be at this e-mail and able to read list till Thurs. Friday I will be in Redmond and at this e-mail forems@email.msn.com subject should probably read attn Beth. Thanks Beth ps do any of you have tables at the Pikes Place Market? I love going there and could visit. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 29 13:25:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22964 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05164; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:22:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04463 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:14:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:14:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910291714.MAA04463@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 6898 invoked from network); 29 Oct 1999 17:14:28 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005a-10.iquest.net (209.43.73.170) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 1999 17:14:28 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: ORGANIC COST-SHARE PROGRAM Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 750 >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net >X-Sender: campaign@mail.magiccarpet.com >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 03:18:17 -0400 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >From: "Natl. Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture" >Subject: ORGANIC COST-SHARE PROGRAM > >TO: ORGANIC PARTNERS -- ORGANIC COST-SHARE >We understand that the decision whether or not to include a cost-share program >in the proposed Rule will be made by November 1. In order to make a final push >to let the Department know where we stand on this, we need a sign-on letter to >get to Kathleen Merrigan no later than Friday afternoon. Following is a draft >letter -- if you have suggestions on language changes, and if your >organizatino can sign on in principle, please sign and return by Friday noon >Eastern. > >NATIONAL CAMPAIGN FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE >P.O. Box 396, Pine Bush, NY 12566, (914) 744-8448, Fax: (914) 744-8477; >email: Campaign@magiccarpet.com >www.SustainableAgriculture.net > > > >October 27, 1999 > >Kathleen Merrigan, Director >Agriculture Marketing Service, USDA >3701 South Ag Building >1400 Independence Ave. SW >Washington, DC 20250 > > >Dear Ms. Merrigan: > > >USDA should establish a simple, cost-effective, cost-share program for organic >small farmers to offset the costs of certification, and encourage the >participation of more farmers in the organic certification program. There are >many models currently in the United States, including a new organic cost-share >program in Minnesota. > >It is critical that a cost-share program be in the new proposed Rule. >Otherwise, a majority of current organic farmers will not be able to be >certified due to the fees and other expenses associated with certifying under >this Rule. > >Please contct us if you need additoinal info. we stand ready to assist you in >moving this program forward ass sonn as possible. > >Sincerely, > >Names and Organization > > >cc: Keith Jones > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Liana Hoodes >National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture >P.O. Box 396 >Pine Bush, New York 12566 >Phone: 914-744-8448 >Fax: 914-744-8477 >email: campaign@magiccarpet.com >www.SustainableAgriculture.net >If you would like to join our (free) Action Alert Network, please email us your >name, address, phone, fax, and email. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >TO: ORGANIC PARTNERS --  >ORGANIC COST-SHARE
    >
    We understand that the decision whether or not to include a >cost-share program in the proposed Rule will be made by November 1.  >In order to make a final push to let the Department know where we stand >on this, we need a sign-on letter to get to Kathleen Merrigan no later >than Friday afternoon.  Following is a draft letter --  if you >have suggestions on language changes,  and if your organizatino can >sign on in principle, please sign and return by Friday noon >Eastern.
    >
    >
    >NATIONAL CAMPAIGN FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE
    >
    P.O. Box 396, Pine Bush, NY  12566, (914) 744-8448, Fax: (914) >744-8477;  email: Campaign@magiccarpet.com
    >www.SustainableAgriculture.net
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >October 27, 1999
    >
    >Kathleen Merrigan, Director
    >Agriculture Marketing Service, USDA
    >3701 South Ag Building
    >1400 Independence Ave.  SW
    >Washington, DC 20250
    >
    >
    >Dear Ms. Merrigan:
    >
    >
    >USDA should establish a simple, cost-effective, cost-share program for >organic small farmers to offset the costs of certification, and encourage >the participation of more farmers in the organic certification >program.  There are many models currently in the United >States,  including a new organic cost-share program in >Minnesota.
    >
    >It is critical that a cost-share program be in the new proposed >Rule.  Otherwise, a majority of current organic farmers will not be >able to be certified due to the fees and other expenses associated with >certifying under this Rule.
    >
    >Please contct us if you need additoinal info.  we stand ready to >assist you in moving this program forward ass sonn as possible.
    >
    >Sincerely,
    >
    >Names and Organization
    >
    >
    >cc:  Keith Jones

    > >
    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >
    >
    Liana Hoodes
    >National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture
    >P.O. Box 396
    >Pine Bush, New York  12566
    >Phone: 914-744-8448
    >Fax:  914-744-8477
    >email:  campaign@magiccarpet.com
    >www.SustainableAgriculture.net
    >If you would like to join our (free) Action Alert Network, please >email us your name, address, phone, fax, and email.
    >
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 29 13:30:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23074 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05766; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:28:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04544 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:15:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:15:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910291715.MAA04544@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 7831 invoked from network); 29 Oct 1999 17:15:10 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005a-10.iquest.net (209.43.73.170) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 1999 17:15:10 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_941223856==_" To: From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: URGENT: UPCOMING FDA MEETINGS X-Attachments: C:\MSOFFICE\WINWORD\SAYNO2!1.RTF; Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 751 --=====================_941223856==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net >Comments: Authenticated sender is >From: "charles margulis" >Organization: Greenpeace >To: Farmer.co-plaintiffs@dialb.greenpeace.org >Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:42:53 +0000 >Subject: URGENT: UPCOMING FDA MEETINGS >Priority: normal > >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-description: Mail message body >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT > >Hello all -- > >by now you may know that the Food and Drug Admin is holding three >public hearings on biotech food. The hearings will be > >Nov 18 in Chicago >Nov 30 in Wash, DC >Dec 13 in Oakland, CA > >it is vital that we get as many people to these meetings as possible; >FDA has stated that Americans are not concerned about biotech food, >and they don't expect many people at these meetings. > >EVERYONE WHO CAN ATTEND SHOULD DO SO!! PLEASE ALSO HELP RECRUIT >OTHERS TO ATTEND! > >I spoke to folks at FDA today: folks who can't take a full day >away should know that public comment is tentatively scheduled >for the afternoon, so people who can only come for half-day should do >so. > >Also, the meeting notice says people who comment must register two >weeks in advance. Again today the FDA spokesperson told me that they >would not keep anyone out if they register late. By tomorrow the >greenpeace web site will have a registration page up: > >www.greenpeaceusa.org > >attached is a flyer for the Chicago meeting (in word-7 and rtf >forms). Please duplicate and distribute. > >feel free to call with any questions or suggestions....anyone with >Chicago area contacts please let me know! Thanks! >Charles >Charles Margulis >Greenpeace Genetic Engineering Campaign >1817 Gough Street >Baltimore, MD 21231 >tel 410-327-3770 >fax 410-327-2990 >charles.margulis@dialb.greenpeace.org >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-disposition: inline >Content-description: Attachment information. > >The following section of this message contains a file attachment >prepared for transmission using the Internet MIME message format. >If you are using Pegasus Mail, or any another MIME-compliant system, >you should be able to save it or view it from within your mailer. >If you cannot, please ask your system administrator for assistance. > > ---- File information ----------- > File: say no!.doc > Date: 27 Oct 1999, 22:50 > Size: 31232 bytes. > Type: MS-Word-7 > >Attachment Converted: C:\MSOFFICE\WINWORD\sayno!1.doc >Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >Content-disposition: inline >Content-description: Attachment information. > >The following section of this message contains 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Baltimore, MD 21231 \par Tel (410) 327-3770\tab Fax (410) 327-2990 \par }{\field\flddirty{\*\fldinst {\b\cf1 HYPERLINK mailto:charles.margulis@dialb.greenpeace.org }{\b\cf1 {\*\datafield 00d0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b02000000170000002600000063006800610072006c00650073002e006d0061007200670075006c006900730040006400690061006c0062002e0067007200650065006e00700065006100630065002e006f00720067000000e0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b5a0000006d00 610069006c0074006f003a0063006800610072006c00650073002e006d0061007200670075006c006900730040006400690061006c0062002e0067007200650065006e00700065006100630065002e006f00720067000000}}}{\fldrslt {\cs16\b\cf1 charles.margulis@dialb.greenpeace.org}}}{ \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright { \par \par }\pard \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\f17\fs72 SAY NO TO GMOs!! \par }\pard\plain \s18\qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \fs32\cgrid {\f17 \par \par GENETICALLY MODIFIED ORGANISMS ARE IN OUR FOOD CHAIN AND OUR ENVIRONMENT - - YET NO ONE KNOWS THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS \par \par THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION IS HOLDING A PUBLIC MEETING ON GMO FOOD. \par }\pard\plain \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\f17\fs32 \par PUBLIC TESTIMONY IS VITAL \endash PLEASE ATTEND THIS IMPORTANT MEETING! \par }{\b\f17\fs48 \par }\pard\plain \s4\qc\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel3\adjustright \b\f17\fs56\cgrid {NOVEMBER 18 \endash CHICAGO, IL \par }\pard\plain \s3\qc\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel2\adjustright \b\f18\fs32\cgrid {\f17 9 AM TO 6 PM \par }\pard\plain \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\b\f17\fs32 ONE PRUDENTIAL PLAZA \par }\pard\plain \s3\qc\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel2\adjustright \b\f18\fs32\cgrid {\f17 130 EAST RANDOLPH STREET, 40}{\f17\super TH}{\f17 FLOOR, PLAZA CLUB}{\f17\fs48 \par }\pard\plain \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\b\f17\fs48 \par }\pard\plain \s19\qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \b\fs32\cgrid {\f17\fs48 FOR INFORMATION CALL \par 410-327-3770}{\f17 \par \par OR REGISTER ON-LINE AT \par \par }\pard\plain \qc\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\b\f17\fs32 }{\field\flddirty{\*\fldinst {\b\f17\fs72\cf1 HYPERLINK http://www.greenpeaceusa.org }{\b\f17\fs72\cf1 {\*\datafield 00d0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b0200000017000000160000007700770077002e0067007200650065006e00700065006100630065007500730061002e006f00720067000000e0c9ea79f9bace118c8200aa004ba90b3c00000068007400740070003a002f002f007700770077002e0067007200650065006e007000 65006100630065007500730061002e006f00720067002f000000}}}{\fldrslt {\cs16\b\f17\fs72\cf1 www.greenpeaceusa.org}}}{\b\f18\fs72\cf1 \par }{\b\f18\fs32 \par }\pard\plain \s2\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel1\adjustright \b\fs28\cgrid { \par }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\fs28 \par }\pard\plain \s5\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel4\adjustright \b\fs32\cgrid {Our Planet, Ourselves: Threats of Genetic Engineering \par }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid { \par }{\fs22 Unlike traditional crop or animal breeding, genetic engineering enables scientists to cross genes from bacteria, viruses, and even humans into plants and animals. There are already over 50 million acres of engineered crops growing in the U. S, and while there has been no long-term study of the impact these crops might have in the environment, scientists are already finding signs of trouble: \par \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls11\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls11\adjustright {\b\fs22 Biological pollution:}{\fs22 Research showing a threat to monarch butterflies from a modified corn crop alerted the world to the hidden dangers of the technology. }{\b\fs22 While chemical pollution has been the scourge of the 20}{\b\fs22\super th}{ \b\fs22 century, biological pollution from such crops poses even more hazards as we enter the new millenium.}{\fs22 Unlike chemicals released into the environm ent, these living genetically modified organisms (GMOs) will reproduce and spread uncontrollably, with no possibly of containment or clean-up. \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls11\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls11\adjustright {\b\fs22 Increased chemical use:}{\fs22 An analysis of over 8200 University field trials has shown that farmers who grow GMO soybeans use 2-10 times }{\i\fs22 more}{\fs22 herbicides than farmers who grow natural soy varieties. \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls11\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls11\adjustright {\b\fs22 Weediness:}{ \fs22 Studies have shown that GMO crops can cross pollinate with related weeds, possibly resulting in \ldblquote superweeds\rdblquote that become difficult to control. One recent study foun d that a GMO plant was 20 times more likely to cross with a related weed than natural plants. \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\fs22 \par The biotech industry claims that no one has been harmed by eating GMO food. But doctors and scientists warn that there is not enough evidence to assure that these foods are safe in the human diet. In fact, }{\b\fs22 there is ample evidence of the risks of GMO foods:}{\fs22 \par \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls12\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls12\adjustright {\b\fs22 Allergies:}{ \fs22 Transfer of allergens through the engineering process has been documented, yet GMO foods now on the market contain proteins that have never been assessed for their allergenic potential. \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls12\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls12\adjustright {\b\fs22 Antibiotic Resistance:}{\fs22 The rise of diseases that are resistant to treatment with common antibiotics is already a serious medical concern. Doctors warn that the use of antibiotic resistance genes in GMO crops may add to this risk. \par {\pntext\pard\plain\f3\fs22\cgrid \loch\af3\dbch\af0\hich\f3 \'b7\tab}}\pard \fi-360\li360\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\jclisttab\tx360{\*\pn \pnlvlblt\ilvl0\ls12\pnrnot0\pnf3\pnstart1\pnindent360\pnhang{\pntxtb \'b7}}\ls12\adjustright {\b\fs22 Toxic Effects:}{ \fs22 Foreign genes introduced into crop plants usually require a "promoter" gene to assure that the inserted gene remains active in its new host. Scientists warn that the action of these promoter genes may result in the unintended pro duction of toxic substances in genetically engineered plants and animals. \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\fs22 \par }\pard\plain \s2\keepn\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\outlinelevel1\adjustright \b\fs28\cgrid {FDA Approved -- \ldblquote Sound Science\rdblquote or Politics as Usual? \par }\pard\plain \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\fs22 \par Documents from a 1998 lawsuit}{\cs23\fs22\super \chftn {\footnote\ftnalt \pard\plain \s22\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \fs20\cgrid {\cs23\super \chftn }{ International Center for Technology Assessment, May 1998. www.icta.org.}}}{\fs22 filed by consumer groups and scientists against the FDA show that within the FDA, scientist s in 1992 warned that GMO foods could have adverse health effects. The FDA policy was clearly the result of political pressure from the biotech industry, and was not forged through scientific analysis. Here is a sampling of what some FDA insiders had to s ay about GMO food: \par }\pard \qr\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\fs22 \par }\pard\plain \s17\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \b\fs28\cgrid {\fs22 (T)he processes of genetic engineering and traditional breeding are different, and according to the technical experts in the agency, they lead to different risks. \par }\pard\plain \qr\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\b\fs22 Dr. Linda Kahl, FDA Office of Compliance, January 1992 \par \par }\pard\plain \s17\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \b\fs28\cgrid {\fs22 [FDAs policy] reads very pro-industry, especially in the area of unintended effects, but contains very little input from consumes and only a few answers for their concerns. \par }\pard\plain \qr\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright \cgrid {\b\fs22 D. Louis J. Pribyl, FDA Office of Microbiology, March 1992 \par \par }\pard \nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\fs22 I and other scientists at [the FDA\rquote s] Center for Veterinary Medicine have concluded that there is ample scientific justification to support a pre-market review [of GMO foods]. \par }\pard \qr\nowidctlpar\widctlpar\adjustright {\b\fs22 Dr. Gerald B. Guest , Director, FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine, February, 1992}{\b\f18\fs32 \par }} --=====================_941223856==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net --=====================_941223856==_-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Oct 29 13:34:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23147 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 13:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA06116; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:33:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04630 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 29 Oct 1999 12:16:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910291716.MAA04630@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 9283 invoked from network); 29 Oct 1999 17:16:08 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005a-10.iquest.net (209.43.73.170) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 1999 17:16:08 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: , erorganic@aol.com, sprinkraft@aol.com, , allenm@mwt.net, david_d@efn.org, saunders@win.bright.net, danamex@mail.internet.com.mx, faunus@interhop.net, tocga@aol.com, "Val Carr" , TOCMC@juno.com, Twittman@aol.com, Praxis@laneta.apc.org, ddecou@organicgrown.com, Buchan , ncamp@ncamp.org, smith100@indy.net, rainycrkjb@rr1.net, wderyckx@fidalgo.net, ofma@aol.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Terminator Press Release Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 752 >Return-Path: >Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net >X-Sender: campaign@mail.magiccarpet.com >Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 21:07:54 -0400 >To: (Recipient list suppressed) >From: "Natl. Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture" >Subject: Terminator Press Release > > > >News Release >For release on October 27, 1999 >USDA Must Abandon Terminator Seed Technology >Representatives from farmer, consumer and environmental organizations will meet >today with the office of US Secretary of Agriculture Dan Glickman to demand >that his agency abandon research and development of the controversial >Terminator technology. Terminator is the name critics have given to a genetic >engineering technique that renders second generation seeds sterile, preventing >farmers from saving seed from their harvest, and forcing them to buy new seed >each year. >"It's not often that farmers, consumers, scientists and environmentalists agree >on federal farm policy," said Michael Sligh of the Rural Advancement Foundation >International-USA, "but we all agree on this: 'It's disgraceful that USDA >continues to support and defend genetic seed sterilization." >In March 1998, the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) and Delta & Pine Land >won a patent on a technique for genetic seed sterilization, which they call a >"technology protection system." The seed industry wants to use the technology >to prevent farmers from saving proprietary seed so that the companies can >re-coup their research investment. >"If commercialized, Terminator seeds will hold farmers hostage to giant >agribusiness corporations," said Garry Goldberg, CEO of the American Corn >Growers Association. "Genetic seed sterility is not about improving the >agronomic quality of crops or increasing production, it's simply about >increasing seed industry profits," asserts Goldberg. "Why is USDA supporting >anti-farmer research that serves only the interests of agrochemical and seed >corporations?" >Buried under an avalanche of public opposition, the Monsanto Corporation >announced earlier this month that it would not commercialize Terminator seeds. >Monsanto joins other public and private institutions such as UK-based >AstraZeneca and the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research >who have publicly rejected the technology. >"Even Monsanto admits that it rejected a Terminator because of pressure from >its grower constituency," explains Bill Christison, a Missouri farmer who is >president of the National Family Farm Coalition. Over the past 18 months, >Secretary Glickman has received thousands of letters, phone calls, faxes and >e-mail messages protesting USDA's support of Terminator technology. "Why is >USDA blatantly ignoring its farmer constituency and the public outcry against >suicide seeds?" asks Christison. >"The specter of genetic seed sterilization is particularly alarming given the >rapid rate of consolidation in the global seed industry," said Hope Shand, >Research Director of RAFI. The world's top 3 seed corporations, DuPont, >Monsanto and Novartis, all hold patents relating to genetic seed sterilization. >"Seed is the first link in the food chain, whoever controls the seed has a >stranglehold on the food supply," adds RAFI's Shand. "If a handful of companies >control global seed markets, will farmers have a choice whether or not to buy >Terminator seeds?" >"USDA's support of Terminator technology has eroded public trust and confidence >in the agency's commitment to sustainable agriculture," said Margaret Mellon, >of the Union of Concerned Scientists. "USDA can restore public confidence by >abandoning the goal of genetic seed sterilization and by making a strong >commitment to public plant breeding for sustainable agriculture," adds Mellon. >Adam Goldberg of the Consumers Union agrees. "Research on Terminator technology >is a misallocation of precious USDA research dollars, and will benefit only a >handful of big corporations. This money would be far better spent on >sustainable agriculture and integrated pest management, which will benefit >everyone," said Goldberg. >******************************** >The diverse farm, consumer and environmental groups who will meet with >Secretary Glickman's office today support the following recommendations: >1. All seed and agrochemical corporations should make the same pledge that >Monsanto made earlier this month. DuPont, Novartis, Aventis and others should >make a public commitment not to commercialize Terminator seed technology, as >well as the closely related genetic trait control technologies. The so-called >"genetic use restriction technology" will allow a plant's genetic traits to be >turned on or off with the application of an external chemical inducer- likely >to be the company's proprietary chemical. Remote control of a plant's genetic >traits, triggered by proprietary chemicals, is grim news for farmers and the >environment because, if commercialized, farmers would become more dependent on >chemical inputs manufactured by the seed industry. >2. USDA should cease negotiations with Delta & Pine Land on the licensing of >its jointly held patent, US patent number 5,723,765, and abandon all research >on genetic seed sterilization, including research grants to university >scientists. >3. USDA should adopt a strict policy prohibiting the use of taxpayer dollars to >support genetic seed sterilization. >4. USDA should use public research dollars to re-invigorate public plant >breeding for family farmers and sustainable agriculture. Instead of engineering >seeds for sterility, USDA should boost breeding programs that will lessen >farmers' dependency on chemicals, fertilizers and other expensive inputs. Given >consumer concerns and uncertain markets for genetically engineered seeds, USDA >should invest in low-cost alternatives to industry's patented, high-tech seeds. >Finally, USDA should insure that farmers and citizens are involved in >determining research priorities. >For further information: >Hope Shand and Michael Sligh, Rural Advancement Foundation International >Tel: 919-960-5223 http://www.rafi.org >Garry Goldberg, CEO, American Corn Growers Association >Tel: 918-488-1829 http://www.acga.org >Margaret Mellon, Director of Agriculture and Biotechnology Program, Union of >Concerned Scientists Tel: 202-332-0900 http://www.ucsusa.org >Bill Christison, President, National Family Farm Coalition >Tel: 202-543-5675 http://www.nffc.net >Adam Goldberg, Consumer's Union >Tel: 202-462-6262 http://www.consumersunion.org >Ferd Hoefner, Washington Representative, Sustainable Agriculture Coalition >Tel: 202-547-5754 > > > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Liana Hoodes >National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture >P.O. Box 396 >Pine Bush, New York 12566 >Phone: 914-744-8448 >Fax: 914-744-8477 >email: campaign@magiccarpet.com >www.SustainableAgriculture.net >If you would like to join our (free) Action Alert Network, please email us your >name, address, phone, fax, and email. >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >
    >
    >News Release
    >For release on October 27, 1999
    >
    USDA Must Abandon Terminator Seed >Technology
    >
    Representatives from farmer, consumer and environmental >organizations will meet today with the office of US Secretary of >Agriculture Dan Glickman to demand that his agency abandon research and >development of the controversial Terminator technology. Terminator is the >name critics have given to a genetic engineering technique that renders >second generation seeds sterile, preventing farmers from saving seed from >their harvest, and forcing them to buy new seed each year.
    >"It's not often that farmers, consumers, scientists and >environmentalists agree on federal farm policy," said Michael Sligh >of the Rural Advancement Foundation International-USA, "but we all >agree on this: 'It's disgraceful that USDA continues to support and >defend genetic seed sterilization."
    >In March 1998, the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) and Delta & >Pine Land won a patent on a technique for genetic seed sterilization, >which they call a "technology protection system." The seed >industry wants to use the technology to prevent farmers from saving >proprietary seed so that the companies can re-coup their research >investment.
    >"If commercialized, Terminator seeds will hold farmers hostage to >giant agribusiness corporations," said Garry Goldberg, CEO of the >American Corn Growers Association. "Genetic seed sterility is not >about improving the agronomic quality of crops or increasing production, >it's simply about increasing seed industry profits," asserts >Goldberg. "Why is USDA supporting anti-farmer research that serves >only the interests of agrochemical and seed corporations?"
    >Buried under an avalanche of public opposition, the Monsanto Corporation >announced earlier this month that it would not commercialize Terminator >seeds. Monsanto joins other public and private institutions such as >UK-based AstraZeneca and the Consultative Group on International >Agricultural Research who have publicly rejected the technology.
    >"Even Monsanto admits that it rejected a Terminator because of >pressure from its grower constituency," explains Bill Christison, a >Missouri farmer who is president of the National Family Farm Coalition. >Over the past 18 months, Secretary Glickman has received thousands of >letters, phone calls, faxes and e-mail messages protesting USDA's support >of Terminator technology. "Why is USDA blatantly ignoring its farmer >constituency and the public outcry against suicide seeds?" asks >Christison.
    >"The specter of genetic seed sterilization is particularly alarming >given the rapid rate of consolidation in the global seed industry," >said Hope Shand, Research Director of RAFI. The world's top 3 seed >corporations, DuPont, Monsanto and Novartis, all hold patents relating to >genetic seed sterilization. "Seed is the first link in the food >chain, whoever controls the seed has a stranglehold on the food >supply," adds RAFI's Shand. "If a handful of companies control >global seed markets, will farmers have a choice whether or not to buy >Terminator seeds?"
    >"USDA's support of Terminator technology has eroded public trust and >confidence in the agency's commitment to sustainable agriculture," >said Margaret Mellon, of the Union of Concerned Scientists. "USDA >can restore public confidence by abandoning the goal of genetic seed >sterilization and by making a strong commitment to public plant breeding >for sustainable agriculture," adds Mellon.
    >Adam Goldberg of the Consumers Union agrees. "Research on Terminator >technology is a misallocation of precious USDA research dollars, and will >benefit only a handful of big corporations. This money would be far >better spent on sustainable agriculture and integrated pest management, >which will benefit everyone," said Goldberg.
    >********************************
    >The diverse farm, consumer and environmental groups who will meet with >Secretary Glickman's office today support the following >recommendations:
    >1. All seed and agrochemical corporations should make the same pledge >that Monsanto made earlier this month. DuPont, Novartis, Aventis and >others should make a public commitment not to commercialize Terminator >seed technology, as well as the closely related genetic trait control >technologies. The so-called "genetic use restriction >technology" will allow a plant's genetic traits to be turned on or >off with the application of an external chemical inducer- likely to be >the company's proprietary chemical. Remote control of a plant's genetic >traits, triggered by proprietary chemicals, is grim news for farmers and >the environment because, if commercialized, farmers would become more >dependent on chemical inputs manufactured by the seed industry.
    >2. USDA should cease negotiations with Delta & Pine Land on the >licensing of its jointly held patent, US patent number 5,723,765, and >abandon all research on genetic seed sterilization, including research >grants to university scientists.
    >3. USDA should adopt a strict policy prohibiting the use of taxpayer >dollars to support genetic seed sterilization.
    >4. USDA should use public research dollars to re-invigorate public plant >breeding for family farmers and sustainable agriculture. Instead of >engineering seeds for sterility, USDA should boost breeding programs that >will lessen farmers' dependency on chemicals, fertilizers and other >expensive inputs. Given consumer concerns and uncertain markets for >genetically engineered seeds, USDA should invest in low-cost alternatives >to industry's patented, high-tech seeds. Finally, USDA should insure that >farmers and citizens are involved in determining research >priorities.
    >For further information:
    >
    Hope Shand and Michael Sligh, Rural Advancement Foundation >International >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Tel: 919-960-5223 >http://www.rafi.org >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Garry Goldberg, CEO, American Corn Growers Association >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Tel: 918-488-1829 >http://www.acga.org >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Margaret Mellon, Director of Agriculture and Biotechnology Program, >Union of Concerned Scientists Tel: 202-332-0900 >http://www.ucsusa.org >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Bill Christison, President, National Family Farm Coalition >
    Tel: 202-543-5675 >http://www.nffc.net >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Adam Goldberg, Consumer's Union >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Tel: 202-462-6262 >http://www.consumersunion.org >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Ferd Hoefner, Washington Representative, Sustainable Agriculture >Coalition
    >Tel: 202-547-5754
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    >
    >
    Liana Hoodes
    >National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture
    >P.O. Box 396
    >Pine Bush, New York  12566
    >Phone: 914-744-8448
    >Fax:  914-744-8477
    >email:  campaign@magiccarpet.com
    >www.SustainableAgriculture.net
    >If you would like to join our (free) Action Alert Network, please >email us your name, address, phone, fax, and email.
    >
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 30 11:52:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01842 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02204; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:51:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02122 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 10:50:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.0.167 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:50:30 -0700 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: Terminator Press Release - fine print ? Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 09:15:25 -0700 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <00b933050151ea9CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Bowman (snip >>Buried under an avalanche of public opposition, the Monsanto Corporation >>announced earlier this month that it would not commercialize Terminator seeds. >>Monsanto "not commercialize" - to me that means they have not given up this project, they are just going to continue privately ..... How does it sound to you ? Toni Hawryluk From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 30 12:35:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02124 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04995; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:34:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04944 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 11:34:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910301634.LAA04944@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 7757 invoked from network); 30 Oct 1999 16:34:15 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-13.iquest.net (209.43.53.13) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 1999 16:34:15 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Mary Manson" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Terminator Press Release - fine print ? Cc: Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 754 Monsanto is just putting it on hold to make their public relations look better. Meanwhile USDA still supports the technology. There is more than fine print afoot. I have more info but no time to find and forward it right now. Meanwhile if anyone can get to the FDA hearings, we should. I'm going to try to be in Chicago on the 18th of Nov. Anyone else? At 09:15 AM 10/30/99 -0700, Mary Manson wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Cecilia Bowman >(snip >>>Buried under an avalanche of public opposition, the Monsanto Corporation >>>announced earlier this month that it would > >not commercialize Terminator seeds. > >>>Monsanto > >"not commercialize" - to me that means they have not given up this project, >they are just going to continue privately ..... > >How does it sound to you ? > >Toni Hawryluk > > > > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Oct 30 13:29:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02545 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 13:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08630; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:28:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08535 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:27:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 12:27:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199910301727.MAA08535@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 27796 invoked from network); 30 Oct 1999 17:27:26 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003-13.iquest.net (209.43.53.13) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 1999 17:27:26 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Fwd: USDA Launches New Biotechnology Web Site Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 755 > > >http://www.usda.gov/news/releases/1999/10/0433 >USDA Launches New Biotechnology Web Site > > Release No. 0433.99 > > > Maria Bynum (202) 720-5192 > maria.bynum@usda.gov > Jerry Redding (202) 720-6959 > jerry.redding@usda.gov > > >USDA LAUNCHES NEW BIOTECHNOLOGY WEB SITE > > WASHINGTON, Oct. 29, 1999 -- The U.S. Department of Agriculture today >unveiled a new Internet webpage which provides easy public access to the >Department's vast amount of material on agricultural biotechnology issues. > > "There is an incredible amount of information on biotechnology available >through hundreds of sites on the Internet," said Agriculture Secretary Dan >Glickman. "By creating this new central website, we're providing a starting >point for the general public, media, industry, academia and our international >trading partners to access information about USDA's role in agricultural >biotechnology." > > Several USDA agencies have a role in biotechnology issues. The Animal >and Plant Health Inspection Service, the Food Safety Inspection Service, and >the Agricultural Marketing Service have regulatory functions involving >biotechnology. The Agricultural Research Service, the Economic Research >Service, and the Cooperative State Research, Education, and Extension Service >conduct or fund agricultural biotechnology research. The Foreign Agricultural >Service addresses trade issues related to biotechnology. > > The new site offers answers to some of the most frequently asked >biotechnological questions along with recent speeches by Secretary Glickman on >agricultural biotechnology. The site also includes pages on biotechnology and >trade, regulations, and research. It will be updated regularly as new reports >and information are released by USDA. Links to many of the other government >agencies involved in biotechnology are provided. > > The new biotechnology website can be accessed at >www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechnology/. > > > # > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 1 12:01:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27602 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27505; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:59:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26869 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:52:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-143-28.stk.jps.net [216.224.143.28]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA19335; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 08:52:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <381DC68A.FB4B488@jps.net> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 09:57:49 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" , jayneshord@usa.net Subject: New CSA National Directory Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8057B7A81A6F0D9A6E5F0D40" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 756 --------------8057B7A81A6F0D9A6E5F0D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jayne Shord of the USDA in Washington is putting together a "complete" directory of CSA's in the US. It is going to be posted on the web at (the page is up now, without the CSA listings but with many relevant links, but will be different as it develops). Her email address is jayneshord@usa.net . If you want to be included (I realize that some will not.) she will need your farm name, your name, address, phone #, email address, and web page address if you have them. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . --------------8057B7A81A6F0D9A6E5F0D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jayne Shord of the USDA in Washington is putting together a "complete" directory of CSA's in the US. It is going to be posted on the web at <http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa> (the page is up now, without the CSA listings but with many relevant links, but will be different as it develops). Her email address is jayneshord@usa.net  .

    If you want to be included (I realize that some will not.) she will need your farm name, your name, address, phone #, email address, and web page address if you have them.
    --
    Richard Roth
    rfarm
    1318 Bruce Street
    Chico, CA 95928
    Ph:(530) 895-1672
     <http://www.jps.net/rfarm>.
      --------------8057B7A81A6F0D9A6E5F0D40-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 1 15:44:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04024 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA20739; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:42:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20629 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 14:41:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from knuckles.excite.com ([198.3.99.26]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991101204113.BSZS3796.fortune.excite.com@knuckles.excite.com> for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 12:41:13 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Ideas for Plastic and Row Cover Message-Id: <941488873.7826.531@excite.com> Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 12:41:13 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.202 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 757 Last spring (I think) The question came up "what to do with spent row cover etc" I have a partial solution. Last weekend we were invited to a big Halloween Party (Bonfire, beer, music, crazy costumes...). This party along with the afore mentioned activities also had a haunted woods which we helped set up. We founf IRT mulch and row cover made great props (along with the useless sissal twine that held up tomatoes all season) We made ghosts out of the row cover and the IRT was used as a black drape that people had to walk thru (sounds stupid but was very effective.) So for those of you who are thinking of ways to diversify a haunted forest (or corn maze or barn...) could make you money and also use up all these peices of plastic so many of us use. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 1 16:48:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05076 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 16:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26853; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:47:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from web805.mail.yahoo.com (web805.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26759 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 15:46:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19991101214634.20701.rocketmail@web805.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [192.54.138.167] by web805.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 01 Nov 1999 13:46:34 PST Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 13:46:34 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: Re: New CSA National Directory To: CSAlist Cc: san@nal.usda.gov, rfarm@jps.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 Hi all, Below is an email from Andy Clark, Director of the Sustainable Agriculture Network, which, along with the National Agricultural Library, is putting together this national listing. I hope that nearly everyone who reads this has already been called, or mailed by us within the last couple of weeks. If you haven't responded, please email me (or Andy) and include the info Andy describes in his email below. We want to make sure that each farm that is on the list has agreed to be on the list -- so if we haven't heard from you, make sure we do... Richard, you beat us to the punch. When you visit the CSA website Richard gave, please note that this is was just our "test" list and we are working on the new and revised listing right now and aiming to have it up by the end of this week. We are still developing the website, so if you have any suggestions, please forward them to me or to Andy. Thanks! Kirsten Saylor Sustainable Agriculture Network ksaylor@nal.usda.gov Colleagues: In anticipation of some media publicity about Community Supported Agriculture (CSA), we are compiling a national listing/database of CSA farms (USA only at this time). To be available in print (by state) and on the web, we need to finalize the list by November 10. The potential to generate consumer interest in CSAs is very large. The public will be directed to a web site or a mailing address to find a CSA farm near you. Any CSA not on the list will miss an opportunity to have potential shareholders find them. Although response by the public is impossible to predict, we anticipate thousands of snail-mail or web hits. I am excited by the teachable moments this could generate with respect to the general public and our food system. Therefore, I am calling on all CSA farms to contact my office by November 8. Those 350 or so that have already been in touch, no need to contact us again. Please see below for the exact information we are requesting. I have been working with about a dozen organizations nationwide that maintain lists of CSA farms, and we have contacted all CSAs on the lists these groups have shared with me. If you maintain a list of CSA farms, please send that to me electronically. We will credit all organizations that share lists with us. If you know of CSA farms or know the farmers, please consider one of the following: 1) e-mail me (san@nal.usda.gov) with farm name and contact information; 2) call my voice mail 24 hours a day (301-504-6425) with farm name and contact information; 3) go to the web and fill out the form there (http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csaform.htm); 4) ask the CSA to e-mail or call me or send a FAX to 301-504-6409 or go to the web and submit a form (see below for information we are requesting). My apologies for the RUSH on this. I do not expect to be able to respond to replies to this message except those that include CSA information. I will be in touch later with more details. MANY THANKS for anything you can do to put me in touch with CSA farms in the USA. A note about the WE in this message. The Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN--the outreach arm of the SARE program) and the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC) at the National Agricultural Library, are working with other Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) personnel and with USDA Cooperative State Research, Education and Extension (CSREES) to compile and make this national listing available in print and on the web. Ive done practically nothing else in the past month. See http://www.sare.org http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic http://www.reeusda.gov WE ARE REQUESTING THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION FROM CSA FARMS. Fill in only what you want published. At this time, we will not publish information about the organic certification status of the CSA. CSA Listing Preferred format for e-mail reply is address format without the item descriptors (except FAX). Farm Name Operator Name Address Phone FAX e-mail URL Area/county served Permission to list? YES NO Certified Organic? YES NO Many thanks again to everyone else helping on this project! Andy --- Richard Roth wrote: > Jayne Shord of the USDA in Washington is putting together a "complete" > directory of CSA's in the US. It is going to be posted on the web at > (the page is up now, without the CSA > listings but with many relevant links, but will be different as it > develops). Her email address is jayneshord@usa.net . > > If you want to be included (I realize that some will not.) she will need > your farm name, your name, address, phone #, email address, and web page > address if you have them. > -- > Richard Roth > rfarm > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > Ph:(530) 895-1672 > . > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 1 18:11:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06497 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04949; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:10:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from spamgaae.compuserve.com (as-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.217.148]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04834 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:09:37 -0600 (CST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by spamgaae.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.7) id SAA14150; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:09:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:08:13 -0500 From: urban agriculture network Subject: Ideas for Plastic and Row Cover Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org To: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" Cc: "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199911011808_MC2-8B47-18E1@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id RAA04851 X-Sender: urban agriculture network X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 759 In China they shred it and use it to lighten heavy soils. Cheers! Jac Smit From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 1 18:36:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06876 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07309; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:34:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07230 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:34:34 -0600 (CST) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dLYGa26723 (4247) for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:33:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.218f73a0.254f7d66@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:33:58 EST Subject: Chesapeake, VA To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id RAA07231 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 Someone who found our website has inquired about CSAs in the Chesapeake, Virginia area. Can anyone help me with this one? Heidi Lewis CSOFC Fredericksburg, VA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 2 09:25:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16252 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA08561; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:23:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d07.mx.aol.com (imo-d07.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.39]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA08431 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:22:22 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo-d07.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dUVR0n.ISh (3991) for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:20:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.6a3dcf33.25504d1f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:20:15 EST Subject: Appologies: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 Dear List: On closer examination of the hand I used to point a finger I find that there are three fingers pointing back at me. Such is the case in regard to my knee jerk reaction to the Feds presenting the CSA concept to a national publication. My frustration with USDA agents and policy has made a skeptic out of me. By visiting http:www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa I learned that there is as much diversity in the Federal Bureaucracy as in my back yard. The links at this web site are informative and broad reaching. This is the best crow I've ever eaten. SARE must be the step-child of the current USDA administration. I will surely do my best to cooperate with them in the future. Best regards, Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 2 21:33:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA29504 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 21:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19364; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:30:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp1.supernet.com (IDENT:qmailr@smtp1.desupernet.net [204.249.184.44]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA18745 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:22:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 10652 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 02:21:18 -0000 Received: from 188-216.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.216) by smtp1.supernet.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 02:21:18 -0000 Message-ID: <381F9D56.36A9AB0A@mail.cvn.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:26:31 -0500 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" CC: Dale Schurter , larry williams , "Leroy J. Strite" Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Against a proposed organic cost share program]] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2AD1F7DA79AF146FA3CF898B" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 762 --------------2AD1F7DA79AF146FA3CF898B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, I really support this Rex Harrill wrote: > You guys may want to sign on to this newsgroup. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Against a proposed organic cost share program > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT > From: Erorganic@aol.com > To: Organic4um@aol.com > > Hello all, > > Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of > USDA > supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears > to me > members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis > of > its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and > handlers. > > I have heard none. > > My concerns are gargantuan. > > Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now, > with the > only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by > Congress > is to establish the National Organic Program. That has taken 10 years > primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired > to > manage the proposed program. The Agricultural Marketing Service appears > to > have proposed the organic certification cost share program. > > What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating > this > proposal? Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be > so > high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified > organic farm or handling operation? Doesn't such a proposed cost share > diffuse and cover over the much more important OFPA mandated statement > of > "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties? > > Who really gains form such a program? --The money ultimately ends up > going > first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for > certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why > not?) who > pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of > operations and farm/handler certification market share) and then is > passed > back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by > them. > In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use > tax > money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic > Program. > I am not clear on how fees collected from farmer/handler applicants > and/or > accredited certifying agents must be used by USDA. Perhaps, such funds > cannot be directly deposited to AMS/NOP accounts. > > In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to > certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically > produced" > for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has > increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these > farmers > have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of > organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a > proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of > farmer > applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic > farming. > > I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share, > meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned > response for those so applying. We see the utter collapse of the > conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost > share" program initiated during the 30's depression. A cost share > program is > worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why > would any > of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling > operations > on a government hand-out program? > > There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants > for > organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic > product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff > of > the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic > markets > for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under > OFPA. > Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal > government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, > continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions > that > are simply un-natural, not "organic." > > And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or > handling > businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification. If a > farm or > handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in > OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification. > > With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring > everyone's attention to fact that supporting iinstituting of such > programs > without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think. We > fully understand that inserting such a program as part of the language > of the > second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment > does > offer some degree of public dialogue. But, we question whether this > proposal originated or has been thoroughly discussed within the private > sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect > will > be felt. > > Best regards, > > Eric Kindberg --------------2AD1F7DA79AF146FA3CF898B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, I really support this

    Rex Harrill wrote:

    You guys may want to sign on to this newsgroup.

    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject: Against a proposed organic cost share program
    Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT
    From: Erorganic@aol.com
    To: Organic4um@aol.com

    Hello all,

    Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of
    USDA
    supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears
    to me
    members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis
    of
    its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and
    handlers.

    I have heard none.

    My concerns are gargantuan.

    Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now,
    with the
    only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by
    Congress
    is to establish the National Organic Program.  That has taken 10 years
    primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired
    to
    manage the proposed program.  The Agricultural Marketing Service appears
    to
    have proposed the organic certification cost share program.

    What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating
    this
    proposal?  Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be
    so
    high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified
    organic farm or handling operation?  Doesn't such a proposed cost share
    diffuse and cover over the much more important OFPA mandated statement
    of
    "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties?

    Who really gains form such a program?  --The money ultimately ends up
    going
    first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for
    certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why
    not?) who
    pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of
    operations and farm/handler certification market share) and then is
    passed
    back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by
    them.
     In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use
    tax
    money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic
    Program.
     I am not clear on how fees collected from farmer/handler applicants
    and/or
    accredited certifying agents must be used by USDA.  Perhaps, such funds
    cannot be directly deposited to AMS/NOP accounts.

    In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to
    certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically
    produced"
    for the increased income earning potential.  This is a trend that has
    increased markedly every year for 4 years now.  Almost none of these
    farmers
    have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of
    organic farming.  There main objective is increase farm income.  Such a
    proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of
    farmer
    applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic
    farming.

    I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share,
    meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned
    response for those so applying.  We see the utter collapse of the
    conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost
    share" program initiated during the 30's depression.  A cost share
    program is
    worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why
    would any
    of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling
    operations
    on a government hand-out program?

    There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants
    for
    organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic
    product.  Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff
    of
    the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic
    markets
    for us, expand organic supply for us.  That is not their mandate under
    OFPA.
    Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal
    government intervention.  All such intervention twist the internally,
    continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions
    that
    are simply un-natural, not "organic."

    And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or
    handling
    businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification.  If a
    farm or
    handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in
    OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification.

    With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring
    everyone's attention to fact that supporting iinstituting of such
    programs
    without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think.  We
    fully understand that inserting such a program as part of the language
    of the
    second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment
    does
    offer some degree of public dialogue.   But, we question whether this
    proposal originated or has been thoroughly discussed  within the private
    sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect
    will
    be felt.

    Best regards,

    Eric Kindberg

    --------------2AD1F7DA79AF146FA3CF898B-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 00:04:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01617 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA02329; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:02:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp1.supernet.com (smtp1.desupernet.net [204.249.184.44]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA02252 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:02:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 4858 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 05:00:36 -0000 Received: from mail3.desupernet.net (204.249.184.38) by smtp1.supernet.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 05:00:36 -0000 Received: (qmail 21279 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 02:44:02 -0000 Received: from 188-216.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.216) by mail3.desupernet.net with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 02:44:02 -0000 Message-ID: <381FA24A.477E9403@mail.cvn.net> Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 21:47:39 -0500 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" CC: Dale Schurter , "John M. Sellers" , larry williams , "Leroy J. Strite" , "stoneycroft@usa.net" Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Against a proposed organic cost share program]] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 763 Rex Harrill wrote: > You guys may want to sign on to this newsgroup. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Against a proposed organic cost share program > Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT > From: Erorganic@aol.com > To: Organic4um@aol.com > > Hello all, > > Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of > USDA > supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears > to me > members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis > of > its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and > handlers. > > I have heard none. > > My concerns are gargantuan. > > Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now, > with the > only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by > Congress > is to establish the National Organic Program. That has taken 10 years > primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired > to > manage the proposed program. The Agricultural Marketing Service appears > to > have proposed the organic certification cost share program. > > What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating > this > proposal? Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be > so > high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified > organic farm or handling operation? Doesn't such a proposed cost share > diffuse and cover over the much more important OFPA mandated statement > of > "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties? > > Who really gains form such a program? --The money ultimately ends up > going > first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for > certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why > not?) who > pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of > operations and farm/handler certification market share) and then is > passed > back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by > them. > In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use > tax > money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic > Program. > I am not clear on how fees collected from farmer/handler applicants > and/or > accredited certifying agents must be used by USDA. Perhaps, such funds > cannot be directly deposited to AMS/NOP accounts. > > In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to > certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically > produced" > for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has > increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these > farmers > have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of > organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a > proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of > farmer > applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic > farming. > > I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share, > meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned > response for those so applying. We see the utter collapse of the > conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost > share" program initiated during the 30's depression. A cost share > program is > worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why > would any > of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling > operations > on a government hand-out program? > > There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants > for > organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic > product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff > of > the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic > markets > for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under > OFPA. > Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal > government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, > continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions > that > are simply un-natural, not "organic." > > And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or > handling > businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification. If a > farm or > handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in > OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification. > > With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring > everyone's attention to fact that supporting iinstituting of such > programs > without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think. We > fully understand that inserting such a program as part of the language > of the > second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment > does > offer some degree of public dialogue. But, we question whether this > proposal originated or has been thoroughly discussed within the private > sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect > will > be felt. > > Best regards, > > Eric Kindberg From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 00:18:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01741 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA03283; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:16:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03231 for ; Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:16:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.212] [198.69.131.212] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A6B7DD1700FA; Wed, 03 Nov 1999 00:23:03 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 00:15:44 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Cost sharing Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 I agree with Eric Kindberg. Cost sharing is a dangerous policy for small producers. It sounds very much like the proverbial slippery slope. That which is shared today can be renegotiated in the future. Raising the cost of being certified so it will be too expensive for CSA's and most direct market farmers to use the term in the not too distant future. The bottom line is that national organic standards are only in the interest of large producers and corporate distributors. Our customers can come out and see our vegetables growing. The standards of the produce's quality is 'certified' through our relationship with our customers. Federal standards, on the other hand, are a means for impersonal corporations to coop the term 'organic'. I don't see any reason why we should make it easier for the corporate food system to move into the organic food market. It is not in our interest. Cost sharing is just anothr ruse for getting around the small producers objections. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 08:52:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06421 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 08:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA00403; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:50:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA00310 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:49:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:49:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911031349.HAA00310@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 27157 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 13:49:43 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as005-213.iquest.net (209.43.55.213) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 13:49:43 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: Larry Strite From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Against a proposed organic cost share program]] Cc: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" , Dale Schurter , "John M. Sellers" , larry williams , "Leroy J. Strite" , "stoneycroft@usa.net" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id HAA00311 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 765 Just so you know, the Organic4um newsgroup does not post or include comments made by any others than erorganic/Ripplebrook. Occasionally there are select quotes from others, but no real discussion. Personally, I feel a "forum" should offer participation and inclusiveness. When this response was written, it was with some misunderstanding as to the nature of the proposal. It did come originally from Michael Sligh and the original draft included language indicating that the cost share would be for small farmers in the $5K - $50K range. I have asked what happened to that language and have not yet heard a reply. Here is more on the issue: Return-Path: Delivered-To: cvof@iquest.net From: Erorganic@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 10:56:58 EST Subject: I stand corrected To: Organic4um@aol.com In a message dated 01/11/99 7.00.55 Central Standard Time, Kathleen.Merrigan@usda.gov writes: > I'm unaware of AMS proposing such a cost share initiative. I suggest you > check with Michael Sligh. > > Kathleen Merrigan (My response to Kathleen) Very interesting Kathleen. I would have never stated such, if that was not the implication coming from the Campaign statement. And, I will correct the statement in forthcoming emails. Best, Eric XXXXX Hello everyone, Regarding who proposed the organic cost share program: it seems to have been Michael Sligh. Following is the original communiqu from the Campaign that indicates to me that the Ag Marketing Service of USDA was going to make a decision by November 1 of whether or not to include an organic cost share. Thus, my conclusion that they were actively involved in its proposal and development, as I have never heard the idea being circulated among US organic farmers. Somehow, it appears the larger number of certified organic farmers and handlers are continually being left out of the policy development process being driven by the Campaign. My mistake of accrediting the proposed program to AMS would have been avoided if the proposal had been floated to the organic community at large rather than presented in a very short term sign on letter for organization and personal involvement. Stating, "Otherwise, a majority of current organic farmers will not be able to be certified due to the fees and other expenses associated with certifying under this Rule. " is unfair to AMS and implies the second proposed organic rule will make it too costly for the majority of certified organic farms to participate. In fact, I believe the statement cannot be validated and should never have been included in the text. The funny thing is I am part of the campaign mailing list regarding organic issues and have participated within the Campaign since 1995, but somehow I only get the final calls to action, never the calls to be part of the decision making process. All of this raises the fundamental question of what is the public structure where organic farming and handling policies are initiated and developed. Since 1990, I have felt it was and should be the National Organic Standards Board. The problem has been that the Board, whoever has been on it, only half heartedly wants to put the time in necessary to tap the full innovative and talented potential of organic farmers and handlers. Although the Board under the chair of Michael Sligh did perfect and implement process for initiating and developing draft and final recommendations to the NOSB, all that has fallen to the wayside. The outcome being the path is now open for private sector organizations representing special interest to circumvent the OFPA and the consensual will of organic farmers, handlers and consumers. Private organizations have private agendas. There never has appeared to be a private sector organization that will operate as an organic community public sounding board. Isn't it time certified organic farmers, handlers and consumer representatives took the helm and had a non-lobbying, non-partisan clearing house for informed decision making on organic policy? Those decisions would be conveyed for consideration by the NOSB and possible recommendation to the Secretary. The alternative to developing a process for decision is what prevails, leaving everyone to find out anyway they want what the hell is going on and for certified organic farmers, handlers and most consumers from having in part in federal organic policy development. It is time to empower certified organic farmers, handlers in the interest of consumer trust. It is time to empower the NOSB to implement public process for policy development that works. Kathleen, the facilitator that developed the Organic Foods Production Act is now the director. Therefore empowering the Board with appropriate and due process should be perfected. Empowering us, the farmers, handlers and consumers who have to live under the rules and law pleads for a national organic policy panel, or something of the sort. My original response to the proposed organic cost share for certification proposal follows again below. And now it is time to harvest more vegetables. Best regards, Eric Kindberg, certified organic farmer Subj: ORGANIC COST-SHARE PROGRAM Date: 27/10/99 14.20.15 Central Daylight Time From: campaign@magiccarpet.com (Natl. Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture) TO: ORGANIC PARTNERS -- ORGANIC COST-SHARE We understand that the decision whether or not to include a cost-share program in the proposed Rule will be made by November 1. In order to make a final push to let the Department know where we stand on this, we need a sign-on letter to get to Kathleen Merrigan no later than Friday afternoon. Following is a draft letter -- if you have suggestions on language changes, and if your organizatino can sign on in principle, please sign and return by Friday noon Eastern. NATIONAL CAMPAIGN FOR SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE P.O. Box 396, Pine Bush, NY 12566, (914) 744-8448, Fax: (914) 744-8477; email: Campaign@magiccarpet.com www.SustainableAgriculture.net October 27, 1999 Kathleen Merrigan, Director Agriculture Marketing Service, USDA 3701 South Ag Building 1400 Independence Ave. SW Washington, DC 20250 Dear Ms. Merrigan: USDA should establish a simple, cost-effective, cost-share program for organic small farmers to offset the costs of certification, and encourage the participation of more farmers in the organic certification program. There are many models currently in the United States, including a new organic cost-share program in Minnesota. It is critical that a cost-share program be in the new proposed Rule. Otherwise, a majority of current organic farmers will not be able to be certified due to the fees and other expenses associated with certifying under this Rule. Please contct us if you need additoinal info. we stand ready to assist you in moving this program forward ass sonn as possible. Sincerely, Names and Organization cc: Keith Jones ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Liana Hoodes National Campaign for Sustainable Agriculture P.O. Box 396 Pine Bush, New York 12566 Phone: 914-744-8448 Fax: 914-744-8477 email: campaign@magiccarpet.com www.SustainableAgriculture.net If you would like to join our (free) Action Alert Network, please email us your name, address, phone, fax, and email. Hello all, Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of USDA supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears to me members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis of its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and handlers. I have heard none. My concerns are gargantuan. Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now, with the only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by Congress to establish the National Organic Program. That has taken 10 years primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired to manage the proposed program. What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating this proposal? Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be so high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified organic farm or handling operation? Doesn't such a proposed cost share diffuse and cover over the much more important issue of "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties? Who really gains form such a program? --The money ultimately ends up going first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why not) who pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of operations and farm/handling operation certification market share and then is passed back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by them. In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically produced" for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these farmers have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of farmer applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic farming. I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share, meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned response for those so applying. We see the utter collapse of the conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost share" program initiated during the 30's depression. A cost share program is worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why would any of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling operations on a government hand-out program? There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants for organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff of the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic markets for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under OFPA. Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions that simply un-natural, not "organic." And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or handling businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification. If a farm or handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification. With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring everyone's attention to supporting iinstituting of such programs without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think. We fully understand that placing such a program as part of the second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment does offer some degree of public dialogue, but question whether the proposal originated in the private sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect will be felt. Best regards, Eric Kindberg At 09:47 PM 11/2/99 -0500, Larry Strite wrote: > > >Rex Harrill wrote: > >> You guys may want to sign on to this newsgroup. >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Against a proposed organic cost share program >> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 1999 08:53:36 EDT >> From: Erorganic@aol.com >> To: Organic4um@aol.com >> >> Hello all, >> >> Before signing on to letters to the Agricultural Marketing Service of >> USDA >> supporting an organic cost share program for certification, it appears >> to me >> members of the organic community should supply some thoughtful analysis >> of >> its implications and possible effects on certified organic farmers and >> handlers. >> >> I have heard none. >> >> My concerns are gargantuan. >> >> Firstly, organic farming and handling is a free market activity now, >> with the >> only authorized activity of USDA or the Federal government made by >> Congress >> is to establish the National Organic Program. That has taken 10 years >> primarily because up until most recently qualified people were not hired >> to >> manage the proposed program. The Agricultural Marketing Service appears >> to >> have proposed the organic certification cost share program. >> >> What is this saying by the Agricultural Marketing Service initiating >> this >> proposal? Could it be that the cost for certification are going to be >> so >> high that we have to have government assistance to be a USDA certified >> organic farm or handling operation? Doesn't such a proposed cost share >> diffuse and cover over the much more important OFPA mandated statement >> of >> "reasonable" cost of certification and accreditation to all parties? >> >> Who really gains form such a program? --The money ultimately ends up >> going >> first to certified farmers (or more probably anyone applying for >> certification) (are handler applicants included also and if not why >> not?) who >> pay the money to USDA accredited certifiers (allowing their expansion of >> operations and farm/handler certification market share) and then is >> passed >> back to the Agricultural Marketing Service as fees for accreditation by >> them. >> In fact the proposed organic cost share program is another way to use >> tax >> money to support the Agricultural Marketing Service National Organic >> Program. >> I am not clear on how fees collected from farmer/handler applicants >> and/or >> accredited certifying agents must be used by USDA. Perhaps, such funds >> cannot be directly deposited to AMS/NOP accounts. >> >> In the Midwest at least we have large numbers of farmers coming to >> certification agency meetings wanting to sell crops as "organically >> produced" >> for the increased income earning potential. This is a trend that has >> increased markedly every year for 4 years now. Almost none of these >> farmers >> have become really familiar with the principals, practices or system of >> organic farming. There main objective is increase farm income. Such a >> proposed organic cost share program will only increase the number of >> farmer >> applicants with very little increase in applicant knowledge of organic >> farming. >> >> I have not heard any statement that this might be a one time cost share, >> meaning that such a program will probably become an annual conditioned >> response for those so applying. We see the utter collapse of the >> conventional farming "community" under the now 65 year continuous "cost >> share" program initiated during the 30's depression. A cost share >> program is >> worth the organic community considering as all options are, but why >> would any >> of us want to become dependent for part of our farming or handling >> operations >> on a government hand-out program? >> >> There is a question whether large numbers of new "cost share" applicants >> for >> organic farming certification will not stimulate oversupply of organic >> product. Every since passage of the Organic Foods Production Act, staff >> of >> the Agricultural Marketing Service have been trying to expand organic >> markets >> for us, expand organic supply for us. That is not their mandate under >> OFPA. >> Let the markets and supply expand without, absolutely without, Federal >> government intervention. All such intervention twist the internally, >> continually re-balancing organic supply and demand system in directions >> that >> are simply un-natural, not "organic." >> >> And lastly, anyone that is seriously considering organic farming or >> handling >> businesses can surely pay a "reasonable" fee for certification. If a >> farm or >> handling operation falls under the $5000 level of gross income stated in >> OFPA, they do not need to apply for certification. >> >> With this statement, Ripplebrook Organic Growers would like to bring >> everyone's attention to fact that supporting iinstituting of such >> programs >> without forethought may lead us to many more problems than we think. We >> fully understand that inserting such a program as part of the language >> of the >> second Proposed Organic Rule in the Federal Register for public comment >> does >> offer some degree of public dialogue. But, we question whether this >> proposal originated or has been thoroughly discussed within the private >> sector organic farming and handling community, which is where the effect >> will >> be felt. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Eric Kindberg > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 10:26:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08675 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA09006; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:24:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08912 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:23:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 13569 invoked from network); 3 Nov 1999 15:22:51 -0000 Received: from i48-02-11.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.75) (216.26.2.75) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 15:22:51 -0000 Message-ID: <382044E8.57E3@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 07:21:32 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SCook21809@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Appologies References: <0.6a3dcf33.25504d1f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 766 Art Biggert wrote: Dear List: On closer examination of the hand I used to point a finger I find that there are three fingers pointing back at me. Such is the case in regard to my knee jerk reaction to the Feds presenting the CSA concept to a national publication. My frustration with USDA agents and policy has made a skeptic out of me. By visiting http:www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa I learned that there is as much diversity in the Federal Bureaucracy as in my back yard. The links at this web site are informative and broad reaching. This is the best crow I've ever eaten. SARE must be the step-child of the current USDA administration. I will surely do my best to cooperate with them in the future. ******************* There is never a need to apologise for questioning the acts of large organizations (or small organizatio9ns, or individuals). It is refusing to change your position when faced with additional information that can be a problem. Keep questioning, keep asking, keep growing, keep sharing. Your thoughts, based on your experiences, are every bit as important, valuable, and valid as anyone else's and I want to know when you are concerned, or thrilled, with something. Diversity of opinion is as vital in human interaction as it is the rest of Nature - that is to say: essential. It's called "community" Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 10:45:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09302 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10640; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:44:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.mail.yahoo.com (smtp.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.32]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10565 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:43:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911031543.JAA10565@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from bsg-ma2a-187.ix.netcom.com (HELO computer) (209.110.252.187) by smtp.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 3 Nov 1999 07:55:19 -0800 X-Apparently-From: From: "Chelsea Green Publishing Co." To: "CSA list" Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 10:49:17 -0500 Subject: Genetic Engineering, Food, and our Environment Reply-To: nuarez@yahoo.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=XXEB0FEB0E-000FEB0FXX Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 767 This is a Multipart MIME message. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --XXEB0FEB0E-000FEB0FXX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello concerned citizens, food growers and scientists alike, We thought you might be interested in an important new book from Chelsea Gr= een=20 Publishing that highlights many of the social, environmental and health imp= lications=20 arising from the introduction of genetically engineered crops and foods. Th= e=20 book is called Genetic Engineering, Food, and our Environment. Written by L= uke=20 Anderson, a leading world expert on the subject of genetic engineering, the= book=20 provides the most up-to-date and reader-friendly information on the subject= thus=20 far. Here's what some other experts have said: "The ideal book about genetic engineering for the general reader. It is sho= rt,=20 clear, easy to understand and gives you all the basic information you need = to=20 know=85 Both hard-hitting and authoritative." Patrick Whitefield, Permacult= ure=20 Magazine "Just as genetically engineered food is appearing on our plates, we are all= being=20 woken up to its implications. Do we want it? Do we need it? What will be it= s=20 impact? Fellow citizens, prepare yourself to answer these vital questions."= Tim=20 Lang, Professor of Food Policy, Thames Valley University The book is now available for $7.95 plus shipping and handling. Orders for = 10=20 or more copies receive a 50% discount.=20 For more information visit the following link or call toll-free 800-639-409= 9.=20 http://www.chelseagreen.com/Nature/GenEngSpecial.htm Jared Volpe Editorial Assistant Chelsea Green Publishing Co. P.O. Box 428 205 Gates-Briggs Building White River Junction, VT 05001 http://www.chelseagreen.com PS Please feel free to circulate this message. =20 =20 --XXEB0FEB0E-000FEB0FXX-- __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 10:49:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09431 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11066; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:47:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11016 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 09:47:45 -0600 (CST) From: Erorganic@aol.com Received: from Erorganic@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 6UJTa26723 (4445); Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:47:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.77b112c8.2551b2f7@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 10:47:03 EST Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Against a proposed organic cost share program]] To: cvof@iquest.net, vita_stim@mail.cvn.net CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org, ACIConsult@aol.com, nelham@ptd.net, lrw7@webtv.net, hybrix@cvn.net, stoneycroft@usa.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 768 Hello, As an individual certified organic produce, field crop and livestock farm, Ripplebrook Organic Growers presented their viewpoints on the proposed organic cost share program. The comments have not been sent out by Organic 4UM, though they were addressed to such. Ripplebrook Organic Growers feels the comments of us as certified producers should be considered and critiqued on their content by the organic community of farmers, handlers and customers. The Organic Foods Production Act granted specific authorizations for USDA involvement in the organic community. Cost share was not one of those authorizations. We do not support any "regulatory legislation" enacted through "rules and regulations" by any agency that is not consistent with OFPA and the consensus of the organic community. In a message dated 03/11/99 7.50.32 Central Standard Time, cvof@iquest.net writes: > Just so you know, the Organic4um newsgroup does not post or include comments > made by any others than erorganic/Ripplebrook. Occasionally there are > select quotes from others, but no real discussion. Personally, I feel a > "forum" should offer participation and inclusiveness. Contrary to the above statement Organic 4UM has and does post and include comments made by others. Organic 4UM has always offered and still offers participation and inclusiveness to any viewpoint regarding issues affecting the organic community. Discussion in Organic 4UM, as in any forum, takes place when someone offers comment. The beginning statement of each Organic 4UM communication states: A communication from the organic4um: Facilitated by Eric Kindberg, certified organic farmer Email: erorganic@aol.com NEW, UPDATED WEBSITE: http://members.aol.com/organic4um/info Written contributions and comments are sought. If you desire your email address to be removed from our circulation list, please inform us. To be added to this email circulation request to organic4um@aol.com NOTICE In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107 this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving it for research and educational purposes. The Organic 4UM distributes this material free of charge even though it takes considerable time and money to produce it. Best, Eric Kindberg, Editor From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 3 21:08:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA21753 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA13958; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:06:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d04.mx.aol.com (imo-d04.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.36]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13867 for ; Wed, 3 Nov 1999 20:05:06 -0600 (CST) From: Erorganic@aol.com Received: from Erorganic@aol.com by imo-d04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id 3JCV.XwKg_ (4597); Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:04:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.c4a7267a.255243ae@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 21:04:30 EST Subject: Re: Cost sharing To: lh@pressroom.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 26 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 769 In a message dated 02/11/99 23.16.52 Central Standard Time, lh@pressroom.com writes: > Subj: Cost sharing > Date: 02/11/99 23.16.52 Central Standard Time > From: lh@pressroom.com (Leigh Hauter) > Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org > To: csa-l@prairienet.org (CSA list) > > I agree with Eric Kindberg. Cost sharing is a dangerous policy for small > producers. It sounds very much like the proverbial slippery slope. > > That which is shared today can be renegotiated in the future. Raising the > cost of being certified so it will be too expensive for CSA's and most > direct market farmers to use the term in the not too distant future. Eric: For USDA to propose to raise the cost of certification of an organic farm beyond a nominal $25 per year above existing cost would be unreasonable, an abridgement of OFPA and a call for massive response to the second proposed organic rule. There is no rational reason why the price should be any higher. As I stated in my call for support as an organic farmer representative on the National Organic Standards Board, both regulatory requirements and regulatory fees should be different for CSA's than from those selling to stores, restaurants or farmers markets. As a CSA in 1986-87-88 simultaneously with being a commercial organic producer, I believe every CSA should be able to qualify their products as "certified organically" without unreasonable cost or regulatory oversight. > > The bottom line is that national organic standards are only in the interest > of large producers and corporate distributors. Eric: Well, I disagree. National Organic Standards are in the interest of small/large producers and handling operations. Even in competition between CSAs, a CSA saying they are "organic" when they are using pesticides would bring questions of how can this be regulated. Our customers can come out > and see our vegetables growing. The standards of the produce's quality is > 'certified' through our relationship with our customers. Eric: "The standards of produce's quality" may be certified through your relationship with your customers. That is fine. But the standard of your produce being "organically produced" relates to not your relationship to your customers, but to the practices and systems used on your farm. We have had a two tiered system related to "organically produced" in the last 25 years. One tier is self certification and the other tier is third part certification. With passage of OFPA, self certification is passe. I agree with keeping governmental, for that matter private sector meddling out of my farming practices and systems, but there is always a balance to be achieved. The bottom line is the integrity of the marketing label "organically produced" needs to be upheld, improved and maintained. > > Federal standards, on the other hand, are a means for impersonal > corporations to coop the term 'organic'. Eric: I disagree. Federal standards are a way to establish consistent and uniform farm and handling standards for labeling products as "organically produced." Impersonal coporations may meet the standards and if they do, they can market products as "organically produced." Personal corporations may do likewise, if they meet the standards. > > I don't see any reason why we should make it easier for the corporate food > system to move into the organic food market. It is not in our interest. Eric: In fact, since passage of OFPA in 1990 there has been no National Organic Program and exactly under the conditions of no regulatory oversight, the corporate food system has moved into the organic food market. Perhaps, you think it will be accelerated with publication of a final organic rule? I do not think the organic market and all its divisions of activites could grow much faster than it has for the last 10 years withou imploding. > > Cost sharing is just anothr ruse for getting around the small producers > objections. Eric: I think the cost share proposal is not well thought out and potentially has many negative possibilities. Best, Eric > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Nov 4 02:57:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA25332 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 02:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA08204; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:56:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from mb09.swip.net (mb09.swip.net [193.12.122.212]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA07975 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 01:52:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from [212.151.225.247] (d212-151-225-247.swipnet.se [212.151.225.247]) by mb09.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA00139; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:52:26 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: mg25209@gaia.swip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:52:18 +0200 To: Leigh Hauter , CSA list From: hans.von.essen@c.lrf.se (Hans von Essen) Subject: Re: Cost sharing Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 770 In Sweden this cost sharing for certification happened 15 years ago. It made the eco farming movement grow quickly in numbers (at the same time as it crippled the biodynamic part) and the government has now decided on 20% eco-farming by 2005. Now the eco movement wants to sacrifice the whole subvention system for ecological agriculture and replace it with general rules that favors good crop rotations and balance between animals and crops on farm level. But the government wants to keep the specific subventions to eco farming because it makes them look good in EU!! I think the basics of a certification system for eco farming is that ecological producers, ecological consumers and ecological traders are equally strong so that they can balance each others one sidedness out. All systems for certification of ecological farming that I know of tend to let the trader side grow too strong. If you have managed to keep that balance straight up to this point - stick to it! If you can do that you may gain strength to influence IFOAM in that direction too. Hans von Essen Associera Agricultural advice From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Nov 4 15:54:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07077 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08962; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:52:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08796 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 14:51:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from spike.excite.com ([199.172.152.97]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991104205107.WEKU1625.kuku.excite.com@spike.excite.com>; Thu, 4 Nov 1999 12:51:07 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: sandehill@juno.com, pastpat@thepoint.net, blakey@infocom.com, amrmeb@ime.net, jana@mountainmax.net, savage@alltel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net Cc: solviva@vineyard.net, wool@willard-oh.com, bakress@mics.net, Pdflick@aol.com, alex1house@aol.com, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, wellingh@earlham.edu, JCHodgson@aol.com Subject: GMO Action alert Message-Id: <941748667.18159.50@excite.com> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 12:51:07 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.88.137 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 771 >Please post this action alert to your e-mail lists. >This will be a great opportunity to take action on GE foods. >Feel free to add information about your organization! > >Genetic Engineering Action Alert! Call for Labeling! > >The following advertisement is in today's (Mon. Oct. 18) New York Times: > >Unlabeled, untested and you're eating it. >In secret, genetically engineered foods are showing up on American grocery >shelves. Though other countries now label biotech food, the U.S. FDA still >does not require labels or safety tests. Don't you have the right to know >what's in your food? And if it's safe for your family? >(You can find a copy of the ad in the front section of today's New York >Times, or download it from the Turning Point Project's website at >http://www.turnpoint.org.) This was a full page ad. > >CALL TO ACTION: >(Note: if you don't have a copy of the ad you can refer to the ad in your >letter.) > >*Cut out the Turning Point Project ad from the New York Times and bring it >to your grocery store manager. Ask that the store label all genetically >engineered foods, and that they require food companies to do the same. > >*Cut out another copy of the ad and mail it with a letter to the U.S. Food >and Drug Administration (FDA, the agency responsible for labeling your >foods as genetically engineered). In the letter, mention your support for >the lawsuit asking for stronger safety testing and mandatory labeling of >all genetically engineered foods. Mention the following case name and >docket number: Alliance for Bio-Integrity v. Shalala, Docket Number >98-1300 (CKK). > Mail to: >Jane Henney, Commissioner >Food & Drug Administration >5600 Fisher Lane, Room 1471 >Rockville, MD 20857 >execsec@oc.fda.gov > >================================================ > >*Contact the EPA in support of the lawsuit that asks the agency to take GMO >crops that contain Bt (corn, cotton, and potatoes) off the market until >further testing is done to evaluate their environmental risks and potential >threats to organic farmers. Mention the following case name and docket >number: Greenpeace International v. Browner, Docket Number 99-389 (LFO). >Mail to: >Carol M. Browner, Administrator >Environmental Protection Agency >401 M St., SW, Room W1200 >Washington, DC 20460 >BROWNER.CAROL@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV > >*The following companies were among those listed as having products that >tested positive for genetically engineered ingredients. Please call them >and express your concern. >Nabisco (Snackwells granola bars): 1-800-8NABNET (1-800-862-2638) >General Mills (Total Corn Flakes, Bac-Os bacon bits): 1-(800) 328-1144 >Heinz (Heinz 2 Baby Cereal): 1-800-USA-BABY (1-800-872-2229) >Kellogg's (Corn Flakes): 1-800-962-1413 >Nestle (Carnation Alsoy Infant formula): 1-818 549 6818 > >Visit www.turnpoint.org for more phone numbers, or to get a complete list >of foods that tested positive for genetically engineered ingredients. > >More Ways You Can Help: > >*Write a letter to the Editor of the New York Times or your local >newspaper. Refer them to the ad you saw. Tell them you support our >advertisements and would like to see follow-up stories on these topics. >Letters to the New York Times can be sent to: > >Letters to the Editor >The New York Times >229 West 43rd Street >New York, NY 10036 >Fax (212) 556-3622 >e-mail: letters@nytimes.com > >*Eat organic foods. No private organic certifier in the U.S. allows >genetically engineered foods to be considered organic. Currently, eating >organic is the only way to insure G.E. free food. > >*Keep organic organic. Write a letter to the US Department of Agriculture >and demand that no loopholes be included in National Organic Standards that >would allow any genetically engineered foods to be considered organic. >Here's the address for the USDA National Organic Program: >Mail to: >Keith Jones >Program Manager, USDA-AMS-TM-NOP >Room 2510 - S >AG Stop 0275 >PO Box 96456 >Washington D.C. 20090-6456 >Or e-mail: keith.jones@usda.gov > >*Invite a speaker from one of the groups listed in our resource guide to >come and give a talk to your community about issues of genetic engineering >that affect you. > >*Hang these ads in your office, school, church, and home. Help spread the >word about genetic engineering. > >*Ask all candidates for office where they stand on genetic engineering. > >For a copy of the ad contact: > >The Turning Point Project >310 D Street NE >Washington, DC 20002 >1-800-249-8712 >http://www.turnpoint.org >email: info@turnpoint.org Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 7 01:06:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA16246 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 01:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA27316; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 00:04:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA26948 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 23:58:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from michaele (red-1-145.premier1.net [207.149.54.145]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id VAA17303 for ; Sat, 6 Nov 1999 21:53:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00c101bf28e5$ca64f8e0$913695cf@michaele> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: Beth in Redmond Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:03:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BF28A2.B9A3DC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 772 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BF28A2.B9A3DC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Beth, I didn't read your message until just now. What a shame, we are just 15 = minutes from Redmond. I'm sending this through the list because I = received a return message with the address you put out. I would love to = meet you and hear about your farm from you personally, so if you log on = to the list during your time in Wa and can still find time please call = me 425-788-0480 Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BF28A2.B9A3DC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Beth,
    I didn't read your message until just = now. =20 What a shame, we are just 15 minutes from Redmond.  I'm sending = this=20 through the list because I received a return message with the address = you put=20 out.  I would love to meet you and hear about your farm from you=20 personally, so if you log on to the list during your time in Wa and can = still=20 find time please call me
    425-788-0480
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_00BE_01BF28A2.B9A3DC80-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 7 10:03:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18787 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA20774; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:58:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20702 for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 08:57:52 -0600 (CST) From: Walklight@aol.com Received: from Walklight@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v23.6.) id dRAZ09nbOy (3975) for ; Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:57:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.11301294.2556ed4c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:57:16 EST Subject: Re: CSA-L digest 354 To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 773 Please change my email address to hots@turtledreams.com I am changing ISP/email providers From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 9 07:17:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17327 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 07:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24310; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:15:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA24115 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 06:12:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from tiptoe.excite.com ([199.172.153.108]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991109120738.NBE13471.fortune.excite.com@tiptoe.excite.com>; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 04:07:38 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: pastpat@thepoint.net, amrmeb@ime.net, savage@alltel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com, oeffa@iwaynet.net, Rossauction@juno.com Cc: teny10@yahoo.com, wagneja@earlham.edu Subject: OXFAM to support GMO Message-Id: <942149258.1196.601@excite.com> Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 04:07:38 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.170 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 774 > Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 12:53:44 +0500 > From: Vandana Shiva > Open letter to OXFAM > > > From: Dr. Vandana Shiva 4th Nov 99 > Director, > Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology > A-60, Hauz Khas, New Delhi - 110 017 > Fax: 0091 11 6856795 > > OXFAM's Support to GM Crops for the Third World > > Dear Friends at Oxfam, > > I have just received a copy of your position on GMOs and WTO and it has > saddened and disappointed me. > > While Oxfam has been an NGO leader on food security issues, and it has > been part of the mobilisation for a moratorium on G.M. crops in U.K., it > is now calling for donor support for developing of G.M. technologies in > developing countries. > > Oxfam sees the "need for public investment and incentives to promote > private investment in G.M. research and innovation benefiting poor farmers > and low income consumers". > > In its position paper on "G.M. crops, WTO and Food Security", Oxfam > recommends, > > Donor governments and agencies commit resources for investment in research > into the potential opportunities presented by applications of G.M. to > deliver environmental and health benefits pertaining to small holder > agriculture in adverse agroecological zones. > > We feel that Oxfam risks betraying the South, the poor and food security > objectives by calling for support for promotion of G.M. crops in the South > instead of calling for support for ecological and sustainable agriculture > which is much better suited to the small farmers in adverse agroecological > zones. > > Research from our own programmes in India and studies worldwide are > countering the myth that ecological agriculture has low productivity and > low returns. Farmers in fact have a tripling of incomes by getting off > the chemical treadmill and getting out of the debt trap created by > purchase of costly seeds and chemicals. > > > > Because G.E. free agriculture is good for the poor and good for the > environment. We have launched the "Bija Satyagraha" which includes the > creation of G.E. free zones in agriculture as pact of the National Food > Rights Campaign in India, in which more than 2,500 groups participate. > > As a leading NGO funder and development agency, we hope Oxfam will join > our call for freedom from G.E. in the South. Oxfam should join the > worldwide campaign for promoting alternatives to both chemical agriculture > and genetic engineering while calling for a moratorium on G.M. crops. > > The focus on promotion of G.M. crops in the Third World, and the total > absence of recommendations relating to the promotion of sustainable, > ecological agriculture will on the one hand deprive the poor of > ecological, decentralised production systems. On the other hand it > carries a major risk of creating a nutritional apartheid - with northern > consumers having G.E. free foods and the poor in the South being condemned > to a future based on G.E. crops and foods. > > At this juncture in history, we need a joining of environment and > development concerns, we need a combining of producer and consumer > interests, we need North South solidarity. With such a joining of forces, > people's power will be successful in controlling the corporate > Biotechnology giants and promoting ecological options for small farmers. > > We hope Oxfam will review its G.M. policy for the Third World and be part > of the global movement for a sustainable and equitable agriculture. > > Oxfam spends #13m a year on projects linked to crop production. It > provides #10m assistance for food aid and trades in 60 food products > through the Oxfam Fair Trade Company. It, therefore, has an influential > role in setting food security agendas. > > Oxfam will definitely be assisting to provide relief in the recent > disaster caused by the super cyclone in Orissa. We hope your food aid will > be G.E. free and that in the rehabilitation programmes you will help > distribute open pollinated varieties and indigenous varieties of seeds so > that farmers are not made dependent on costly inputs. > > We look forward to working with Oxfam on these urgent issues. > > > Yours sincerely, > > > > Vandana Shiva Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 10 11:29:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12307 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 11:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11251; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:27:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10970 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:24:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-155-157.stk.jps.net [216.224.155.157]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA12460 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 08:24:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38299D76.9E80D442@jps.net> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 09:29:42 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Questionaire References: <0.11301294.2556ed4c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 775 I am about to end my season, and was wondering if any of you fellow CSA ers would mind sharing your questions with me. I have never sent out a questionaire before. This being the 4th season I find myself pretty happy with the way things are for ME - - so I don't want to ask questions that would imply that I am going to radically change or provide extra services, but I would like to get some general feedback on how my subscribers feel about their CSA experience with my farm. I've also thought that some grad student could set up one of those "form" sites with a generic questionaire that Any CSA subscriber could log onto, answer the questions, and their answers could be added to a general CSA database. Too complicated for me, but might be right up some computer wiz's alley. A good Graduate Project, or maybe one for our friends at the USDA! (?) -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 10 14:04:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA15682 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA24926; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:47:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24683 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 12:45:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from [216.224.149.246] (216-224-142-97.stk.jps.net [216.224.142.97]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA06253; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:42:30 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38299D76.9E80D442@jps.net> References: <0.11301294.2556ed4c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1269863335==_============" Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:38:47 -0800 To: Richard Roth From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Questionaire Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 776 --============_-1269863335==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Richard, Attached is the one we use. Opps, after I attached it, I realized I'd done it in Pagemaker as a self mailer. I even put postage on these things to facilitate their return. We generally get back about 60%. The second attachment is in Word. --============_-1269863335==_============ Content-Type: application/mac-binhex40; name="1997_Shareholder_Survey" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="1997_Shareholder_Survey" (This file must be converted with BinHex 4.0) :&c%j16FJ8fKKFQ9SEfaNCA)J8h9bGQ9j!%&-3M9"6%3e!3!!"6'!!!!"VRM5!!! !!!!!QIr%!!)'!!B!$!!%!5Jp(!!&-B!!"6'!!!!!!!!!!!!#!!!!,`!!!3!#!!! 0`2rr!!%!!J!!"S$rri!"!!)!!!D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!m!!!!!$!!!!!!#0cP4X !!!!!!#)!!!6!8%d&!!%S2E3!"!!!!54qA!!L!!!!!!%NIQ!!3!!!!!!!!#Fc!!% !!!!!#6Nd0MBi0$Fj13P"F'&MD'8*FLeM0c%`0M8d1$3`-M!c-MFh-c)h$5j`(!! &#!!3!3!!!!!!!!%F!!8)!!S!!!!!!!!!!4`!"3J!!!!!!!!!!!!"(!!&#!!!!!! !!!!!!!&3!!8)!!%I3!I3!!!!!G!!"3J")J!+!!-!!!!88!!&#!!"(d!(d!!!!!& 3!!8)!!%I3!I3!!!!!9!!"3J!!4p!"p!!!!!"8!!&#!!3!I3!I3!!!!&3!!8)!!% I3!I3!!!!!9!!"3J!6!"T!"S!!!!"8!!&#!#N!$!!$!!!!!&3!!8)!!%I3!I3!!! !!@!!"3J!!8!!!!%!!!!"B!!&#!!"3!!!!3!!!!(3!!8)!,3!,!!,!!!!(P!!"3J !"!I3!I3!!!!"8!!&#!"b!%B!%3!!!!&3!!8)!&i!93!9!!!!!G!!"3J"5J!B!!B !!!!D8!!&#!"@!&d!&`!!!!(!!!8)!4)!(3!(!!!!!8!!"3J!*J$5!$3!!!!"8!! &#!9-!!8!!3!!!!(3!!8)!%i!CJ!C!!!0&G!!"3J!*!$H!$F!!!#Ad!!&#!!B!8d !8`!!!0e3!!8)!"i"#J"#!!!!!8!!"3J!!3J!!!%!!!!"8!!&#!#3!!!h!!d!!!! 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text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm --============_-1269863335==_============-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 10 20:15:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22445 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA29443; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:09:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from serval.noc.ucla.edu (serval.noc.ucla.edu [169.232.10.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29327 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 19:08:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from ucla.edu (davidk.biology.ucla.edu [128.97.133.15]) by serval.noc.ucla.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAB18356; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:08:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <382A1804.3D648248@ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 17:12:37 -0800 From: David King X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Community Garden List , CSA List , Medit-Plants Subject: Our Spiritual Relationship to Plants, Reprise Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 777 In July, I request one and all to contribute their thoughts and ideas on their spiritual connection to plants. I got a wonderful outpouring from so many people. I tried my level best to respond to one and all, but in the hub bub that is daily life on this planet, I might have missed one or two, my heartfelt gratitude goes to all who contributed. I have now given two lectures on that topic. The first was a 30 minute intro lecture that I had to give in order to get the job teaching a botany class. I got the job. The 2nd was given a couple weeks ago and the notes/quotes etc are now up on my class web site. If you desire, come by and check it out - I think a full 4 hour workshop is next for me on this subject, there is a lot of interest in it. Not mentioned at the web site but of extreme value none-the-less for my preparation for this topic was the book "Plant Spirit Medicine" by Cowan (turns out that a friend of a friend is studying with him at this time), The Plant-Man Council (do I have that right? University of VA) and their report, "The Connections Between Plants and Man" and many others. http://people.we.mediaone.net/agreenman/Yo/Index.htm About midway down the page are three columns of Acrobat files. "Notes for Week 8" is the Spirituality Lecture, "A Walking Meditation" is adapted from "The Healing Power of Trees" a light and otherwise self-serving text, but, using the scenario of "take what you need and leave the rest", this exercise has excellent potential. If you wrote me look at the "Spirituality Quotes" and see if you made it there. I got a huge amount of material and some of what you said was just too special to let it go away. Beware - my next goal is to turn this into an introductory botany book, working title is "Botany for Everyman" or "The Karl Marx Botany Book". Something like that... You might well turn up there as well. Thank you one and all. I am still interested in learning - if you have more to add, if you have links of interest, please make them available to me. This is, evidently, going to be my lecture forte, I just as well ought to get damn good at it. Again, I am so indebted to all of you. David King Consulting Horticulturalist Author and Lecturer From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Nov 12 10:34:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10685 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20570; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:31:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20389 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:29:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from dan (bsg-ma1b-76.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.76]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08230; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:29:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <03f701bf2d22$c5691740$4cf96ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Michaele Blakely" , Subject: Re: Beth in Redmond Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:29:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_03F2_01BF2CF8.D51CA8C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 778 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_03F2_01BF2CF8.D51CA8C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List, An update. I have been to Wa. and am now back (to the real = world). I very much enjoyed my vacation. From my request to visit I = got 4 responses. Due to time and transportation (I had no car) I was = able only to enjoy two of the offers. One was Michaele, she did get the = e-mail to work and "found" me. My friend was busy this past Monday = driving a friend to a doctors appointment which was to be basically and = all day affair. I told Michaele I didn't think I could take her up on = her offer since I had no car, she came and picked me up! Along with her = friend(who from what I understood is "learning" to be a farmer) we = toured Michaele's farm, stopped and talked to two other farmers and just = peeked at a few farms in which no one was about. Got to see lots of = hoop tunnels all with salad greens still growing beautifully and most = with tomatoes still producing although on the wane. One of the growers = even gave Michaele and I some heirloom mustard greens seeds. To = Michaele, Thank-you. On the following day Tues. my friend and I drove to Seattle took the car = ferry to Bainbridge Island and visited Art Biggert's farm. A gracious = host he showed us his operation, gardens, hoop tunnels, chicken tractor, = snipped some herbs from what was still a beautiful herb garden(Art, when = I left a huge handful was being simmered into a chicken soup that = Melinda is serving today), walked a short distance to his neighbors = house to collect compost tea from a contraption his neighbor is working = on, and just before we left my friend bought two bags of organic duck = food (her local feed store is going out of business, her new motto, buy = food whenever available). We then went to town, Art needed to pick up = spent coffee grounds from some area restaurants. But before that we saw = an exhibit of some fine photography (Art you'll have to tell the list = the photographer's name). The pictures were of ag. and ag history. = Lots of pictures of old farm equipment engulfed by weeds, but the best = picture of course was of a very handsome pig hamming it up for the = camera :) oh yea Art and his lovely misses happened to be in the = picture. The three of us stopped for lunch at a local lunch place. We = left Art to collect his coffee grounds, we gals hit a few stores, my = friend actually bought a few small things, then we caught the ferry and = back to Redmond. Thank-you Art. Thank-you to the two others who offered tours I wish I could have gone = to all the farms. It was fun meeting e-mail people, someday I suppose = someone will say I am going to be on vacation in = Massachusetts............... Thanks Beth -----Original Message----- From: Michaele Blakely To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Sunday, November 07, 1999 1:02 AM Subject: Beth in Redmond =20 =20 Beth, I didn't read your message until just now. What a shame, we are = just 15 minutes from Redmond. I'm sending this through the list because = I received a return message with the address you put out. I would love = to meet you and hear about your farm from you personally, so if you log = on to the list during your time in Wa and can still find time please = call me 425-788-0480 Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_03F2_01BF2CF8.D51CA8C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi List, An update.  I have = been to Wa. and=20 am now back (to the real world).  I very much enjoyed my = vacation. =20 >From my request to visit I got 4 responses.  Due to time and = transportation=20 (I had no car)  I was able only to enjoy two of the offers.  = One was=20 Michaele, she did get the e-mail to work and "found" me.  = My=20 friend was busy this past Monday driving a friend to a doctors = appointment which=20 was to be basically and all day affair.  I told Michaele I didn't = think I=20 could take her up on her offer since I had no car, she came and picked = me=20 up!  Along with her friend(who from what I understood is=20 "learning" to be a farmer) we toured Michaele's farm, stopped = and=20 talked to two other farmers and just peeked at a few farms in which no = one was=20 about.  Got to see lots of hoop tunnels all with salad greens still = growing=20 beautifully and most with tomatoes still producing although on the wane. = One of=20 the growers even gave Michaele and I some heirloom mustard greens = seeds. =20 To Michaele, Thank-you.
    On the = following day Tues.=20 my friend and I drove to Seattle took the car ferry to Bainbridge Island = and=20 visited Art Biggert's farm.  A gracious host he showed us his = operation,=20 gardens, hoop tunnels, chicken tractor, snipped some herbs from what was = still a=20 beautiful herb garden(Art, when I left a huge handful was being simmered = into a=20 chicken soup that Melinda is serving today), walked a short distance to = his=20 neighbors house to collect compost tea from a contraption his neighbor = is=20 working on, and just before we left my friend bought two bags of organic = duck=20 food (her local feed store is going out of business, her new motto, buy = food=20 whenever available).  We then went to town, Art needed to pick up = spent=20 coffee grounds from some area restaurants.  But before that we saw = an=20 exhibit of some fine photography (Art you'll have to tell the list the=20 photographer's name).  The pictures were of ag. and ag = history.  Lots=20 of pictures of old farm equipment engulfed by weeds, but the best = picture of=20 course was of a very handsome pig hamming it up for the camera :) oh yea = Art and=20 his lovely misses happened to be in the picture.  The three of us = stopped=20 for lunch at a local lunch place.  We left Art to collect his = coffee=20 grounds, we gals hit a few stores, my friend actually bought a few small = things,=20 then we caught the ferry and back to Redmond.  Thank-you = Art.
    Thank-you to the two others who offered tours I wish = I could=20 have gone to all the farms. It was fun meeting e-mail people, someday I = suppose=20 someone will say I am going to be on vacation in=20 Massachusetts...............  Thanks  Beth
    -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 Michaele Blakely <mjb@premier1.net>
    To: = CSA-L@prairienet.org <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 Sunday, November 07, 1999 1:02 AM
    Subject: Beth in=20 Redmond

    Beth,
    I didn't read your message until = just=20 now.  What a shame, we are just 15 minutes from Redmond.  = I'm=20 sending this through the list because I received a return message = with the=20 address you put out.  I would love to meet you and hear about = your farm=20 from you personally, so if you log on to the list during your time = in Wa and=20 can still find time please call me
    425-788-0480
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation=20 WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_03F2_01BF2CF8.D51CA8C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Nov 18 21:37:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00603 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 21:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05929; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:34:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05787 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:33:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-154-167.stk.jps.net [216.224.154.167]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA19305 for ; Thu, 18 Nov 1999 18:33:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3834B83C.6895D31D@jps.net> Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:38:55 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CSA-L@prairienet.org" Subject: rfarm Questionaire Share Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 779 I really appreciated the sample surveys some of you sent me. Without them I would have never gotten mine out this year. I thought I'd go ahead and share my compiled and adapted survey with everyone. Hope you enjoy it, and find it useful. Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . Here it is: *************************************************** One of the greatest tools CSAs like rfarm have for improving their service to customers is an End of Season Survey. I have neglected this in the past, but this year, with the aid of the internet, I was able to ask for and recieve sample surveys from several other CSAs around the country. From them I was able to adapt the questions to the rfarm experience. Please take the time to read, fill out, and send. Attach additional sheets as necessary. ***************************** 1. How many times this past season: * did tasting some fruit or vegetable from rfarm trigger the spontaneous awakening of Kundalini? * did these events involve recipies? * If so, care to share? 2. Restfulness/Wakefulness: Do you find yourself going to sleep when you are tired and waking more relaxed and rested, and getting out of bed only when you truly felt like it - more and more - now as compared to before subscribing to rfarm? 3. How many times per day: * A. did you tell some one you loved I love you before you subscribed to rfarm? * B. do you tell some one you love I love you now, since joining? Enter percent improvement ________. 4. By your own estimate: how many lives have you saved since joining rfarm? Please list specific examples.(Attach additional pages if necessary.) 5. Have complete strangers begun unexpectedly embracing you in public yet? If so: * A. To the best of your recollection, how soon after joining rfarm did this phenomenon begin? * B. Do you associate this phenomenon with any particular fruit or vegetable, or season? * C. If so, which one(s)? 6.Have you * learned any new stories since joining rfarm? * found yourself telling more stories since joining rfarm? * found yourself, more and more, hearing and telling stories as you eat fruits and vegetables from rfarm? * found that the overall quality of stories in general, and the satisfaction you get from hearing or telling them, increasing since joining rfarm? * Care to share a good story? (If so, attach ----->) 7. How long after joining rfarm * did it take you to forgive your parents for the truly terrible things they did to you as a child? * did it take you to forgive yourself? * did it take you to realize you were living in a state of bliss? 8. If you woke up tomorrow and found you were dead, and that there was no hereafter, that dead was just stop end nada: * would you feel cheated, would you have even one single regret? (Please, just Yes or No) * Can you tell me specifically what rfarm fruits or vegetables have to do with this question? 9. Can you think of even one single question more that I could add to this end of season survey next year? If so, enter here: 10. Did you really think there was anything you could say on a survey that would make me change my ways? 11. Please circle your favorite question. Get your own envelope and stamp and mail (if you feel like it.) to: 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!!!! Remember, each and every week you stop by the rfarm table at the Saturday Market you get a free bunch of carrots - all the way through February! (Or as long as they last.) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Nov 19 01:32:48 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA03501 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA24590; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 00:30:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from vega.brown.edu (vega.cis-176.brown.edu [128.148.176.47]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23853 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 00:21:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from shirley (bootp-150w.andrews.brown.edu [128.148.189.150]) by vega.brown.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA00077 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:21:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199911190621.BAA00077@vega.brown.edu> X-Sender: Lydia_Pecker@postoffice.brown.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 01:22:45 -0500 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Lydia Pecker Subject: The Promise of CSA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 780 Hi, I am writing a paper CSA and was wondering if any of you had thoughts or suggestions on articles to check that address the following questions: -Does CSA has promise as a sustainable agricutlure practice? -Are there ways to reach urban communities, particularly economically disadvantaged communities? -Are there regions of the country where CSA been exceptionally successful in reaching many people? Thanks for your help! Lydia From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Nov 19 16:45:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14931 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12750; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:42:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts3.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.141]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12011 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 15:34:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from Sympatico.sympatico.ca ([206.172.163.179]) by tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.07 201-229-116-107) with SMTP id <19991119213432.ALH21550.tomts3-srv.bellnexxia.net@Sympatico.sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:34:32 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19991119164106.0074c3b4@pop1.sympatico.ca> X-Sender: b1qbem96@pop1.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:41:06 -0500 To: csa-l@prairienet.org From: Hilary Chop Subject: Re: The Promise of CSA In-Reply-To: <199911190621.BAA00077@vega.brown.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=====================_943065666==_" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 781 --=====================_943065666==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Lydia, I tried to send this directly to you, but I wasn't allowed to - I guess because your email address is secured? I am going to send you the bibliography from my honours paper. Not all of it is directly to do with CSA's, but some is. It might be a bit dated, as I wrote my paper two years ago. It's in Microsoft Word 7. Let me know if you can't access it, and I will include it in the body of another email. There's also a great book out there called "Sharing the Harvest" - the authors name I don't have handy. I will also forward your request to a friend of mine, who wrote his thesis on CSA's, as well. From my own experience, I know that the network of CSA's around NYC is really tight with organizations in the city - definately a prominent example of how CSA's work with disadvantaged communities. There is an org. called "Just Food" in NYC, that would be worth getting in touch with. Their info is...(212) 674-8124, fax: (212) 505-8613...justfood@igc.org If I think of anything else, I'll write again. Good luck! Hilary At 01:22 AM 11/19/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi, >I am writing a paper CSA and was wondering if any of you had thoughts or >suggestions on articles to check that address the following questions: >-Does CSA has promise as a sustainable agricutlure practice? >-Are there ways to reach urban communities, particularly economically >disadvantaged communities? >-Are there regions of the country where CSA been exceptionally successful >in reaching many people? > >Thanks for your help! >Lydia > > --=====================_943065666==_ Content-Type: application/msword; name="Hon bibliography.doc"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="4D535744" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Hon bibliography.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAFAAAAAAAAAAA EAAAFQAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAABMAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAANDPEeChsRrhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD4AAwD+/wkA/v8AAAQAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAQAAAALVzdWcLhsQk5cIACss+a4wAAAAxAAAAAgAAAABAAAASAAAAA8AAABQAAAABAAA AFwAAAAFAAAAZAAAAAYAAABsAAAACwAAAHQAAAAQAAAAfAAAAAwAAACEAAAAAgAAAOQEAAAeAAAA AgAAACAAAAADAAAAAEIAAAMAAAAjAAAAAwAAAAgAAAALAAAAAAAAAAsAAAAAAAAADBAAAAIAAAAe AAAAJgAAAENvbnNlcnZhdGlvbiBDb3VuY2lsIG9mIE5ldyBCcnVuc3dpY2sAAwAAAAAAAAAAANDP EeChsRrhAAAAAP////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////// --=====================_943065666==_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --=====================_943065666==_-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Nov 19 17:21:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15572 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA16282; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:19:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from aurora.nal.usda.gov (aurora.nal.usda.gov [192.54.138.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15673 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 16:13:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by aurora.nal.usda.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) id ; Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:02:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Andy Clark To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: RE: The Promise of CSA Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 17:01:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.10) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 782 Lydia, Sharing the Harvest: A guide to Community-Supported Agriculture was written by Elizabeth Henderson with Robyn Van En. 1999. Published by Chelsea Green (see http://www.chelseagreen.com/Sharing/index.html) or call 800-639-4099. It was funded in part by SARE (http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/sare/). Other CSA information can be found in a very-recently-updated bibliography at http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/csapubs.htm See also http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/csa/ Andy Andy Clark, Ph.D. SAN Coordinator c/o AFSIC, Room 304 National Agricultural Library 10301 Baltimore Ave. Beltsville, MD 20705-2351 PH: 301-504-6425 FAX: 301-504-6409 san@nal.usda.gov http://www.sare.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 12:43:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04140 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA13345; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:40:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from Alice.BMTS.Com (alice.bmts.com [216.183.128.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13219 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 11:39:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from CatherineBould (ts2-ap04.bmts.com [216.183.140.14]) by Alice.BMTS.Com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA20591 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:39:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007901bf3447$d8a249e0$161afea9@CatherineBould> From: "Catherine & Matt" To: Subject: New CSA Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:42:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 783 Hello out there. I am in Ontario and am in the planning stage of starting a CSA. I would sure appreciate any advice on getting started. Thanks, Catherine From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 14:29:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04916 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA22337; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:27:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22276 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:27:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from dan (bsg-ma1d-193.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.193]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA19003; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:26:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000c01bf3456$5bb9d380$c1fb6ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "Catherine & Matt" , Subject: Re: New CSA Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 14:26:38 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 784 Hi Catherine, Welcome aboard. Are you planning your CSA for this upcoming summer? Do you have any members yet? If so how many? My biggest piece of advice I have learned "the hard way", is to treat your first year reguardless of how few or many members you have with the full measure of for lack of a better work professionalism, as if it was your 10th year with 200 members. Ancecdote: Our first year 10 members, not a bad amount really for your first year, in fact I might recommend no more than 20. We planted for about 20 members which also was a good thing it gave us an idea of working that much ground and we had plenty of veggies for the members. My mistake (I am the distributor and smoosher) since I had only 10 members I set no "rules" they all knew they were entitled to a once a week pick-up but no one had a set day. The 10 people would call on varying days "may I come today (one hour from then) and pick up my veggies" I would usually say yes. I was basically picking to order. I will say on the flip side if I wanted to go somewhere on any given day I'd just say no come tommorrow, but that freedom is not worth the lack of structure. Soooooo year two rolls around 37 members! The growing was not that big of a jump, but the distribution was 3 times as much (something of which my partners I don't think fully get through their thick heads :) I continued to be the only distributor). I had to have a schedule so basically everyone choose one of 3 pick-up days, guess who were the worst at sticking to the schedule, yep the repeats from the first year. They still tended to drift around the week, I never really did get them under control :). I did towards the end of the year say your stuff will be waiting but I won't be there. I know you say why wasn't I tougher well I genuinlly like them and I feel grateful to them for having faith in us in our first year. I plan on being tougher still this year, in that I will not be available for chit chat and smooshing other than actually pick-up hours. Off hour pick-up will be self serve from refridge. So short story long. Work out a plan and use it even in your first year even if you have only 2 members. Of course as the years go on the plan can grow and adapt. I plan on trying to stream line pick-ups this year. Add a bit more self service than the last two years. For example herbs pick yours own only. I know many CSA will put out bins of squash, tomoatoes etc and have a black board with instructions take one squash and a dozen tomatoes etc. I think I'd like to combine some prepacking of veggies and some self serve from bins. I probably will think of other things but that's if for now. If you ask some specific questions I/we on the list will do our best to answer them. Good good luck, Beth -----Original Message----- From: Catherine & Matt To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Sunday, November 21, 1999 12:40 PM Subject: New CSA >Hello out there. > >I am in Ontario and am in the planning stage of starting a CSA. I would sure >appreciate any advice on getting started. > >Thanks, > >Catherine > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 16:49:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05772 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01115; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:46:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01038 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:46:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991121214445.ZMJW6196.gigi.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:44:45 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Fw: OV Volume 1 Number 17 Message-Id: <943220685.1156.500@excite.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:44:45 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 785 On Sat, 20 Nov 99 11:20:51 PST, rich and ericka dana wrote: Ericka has not been able to access this list so i will be forwarding her posts from time to time until the problem is straightened out. Lucy. > Something I just received - slightly innacurate re: Chicago, but full of = > useful info. > Ericka, Catnip Farm > ---------- > > Date: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 15:23:54 > > From: Judy Linman Geist > > To: (OCA Friends & Supporters) > > Subject: OV Volume 1 Number 17 > > > > Organic View - An e-mail publication of the Organic > > Consumers Association > > > > The Organic Consumers Association is affiliated with the > > BioDemocracy Campaign. To subscribe to BioDemocracy - a free > > e-mail publication on genetic engineering and other adverse > > effects of industrial agriculture, go to: www.purefood.org > > > > v.1 n.17 November 12, 1999 > > > > Contents > > 1. 47 Members of Congress Call On FDA To Label Genetically > > Engineered Foods > > 2. Rep. Kucinich Introduces Labeling Bill For GE Foods > > 3. FDA Overwhelmed on GE Food Hearings > > 4. OCA Sends Letter to USDA Supporting Cost-Share Program > > 5. Is Chemical Farming Making Food Less Nutritious? Organic > > Gardening Asks USDA > > 6. International Organic Certification Moves Forward > > 7. Update from the Field > > 8. Important Recent Articles > > > > > > 1. 47 Members of Congress Call On FDA To Label Genetically > > Engineered Foods > > > > A letter to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) calling > > for the labeling of genetically engineered foods was signed > > by a bi-partisan group of 48 Members of Congress last week. > > OCA was active in calling for volunteers and supporters > > nationwide to contact their Member of Congress to sign on to > > the letter circulated by US Representative David Bonior > > (D-MI). OCA would like to thank all of you who contacted > > your elected representatives in support of this important > > letter. > > > > The signers of the letter called on the FDA to enforce the > > labeling provisions of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic > > Act which are intended to ensure that consumers are provided > > thorough information and are not misled about the > > characteristics of their food. These provisions require the > > FDA to label genetically engineered or modified foods. > > > > OCA joined a diverse alliance of religious, farm, consumer > > and environmental organizations in calling for Members of > > Congress to sign on to this letter. Other organizations > > supporting the Bonior letter included: Adrian Dominican > > Sisters, American Corn Growers Association, Catholic > > Healthcare West, Center for Food Safety, Citizens for > > Health, Consumers Choice Council, Consumers Union, Friends > > of the Earth, Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, > > Mothers and Others for a Livable Planet, National Family > > Farm Coalition, The Natural Law Party, Organic Consumers > > Association, Sierra Club, Union of Concerned Scientists, > > U.S. PIRG, and Women's Cancer Research Center > > > > FDA is already facing a lawsuit challenging its failure to > > require pre-market safety testing, labeling and full > > environmental review. The lawsuit was filed by the Alliance > > for Bio-Integrity, Center for Food Safety, scientists, and > > members of major religious organizations. > > > > For a copy of the letter to the FDA, and to see if your > > Member of Congress signed on to it, go to the Friends of the > > Earth Website: www.foe.org/safefood > > > > 2. Rep. Kucinich Introduces Labeling Bill > > > > Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), along with 20 > > co-sponsors, announced that they will introduce legislation > > in the US Congress that would require the labeling of > > genetically engineered foods. The legislation comes on the > > heels of a letter signed by 47 Members of Congress to the > > FDA (See above article), and before a series of three public > > hearings by the FDA (See below article) to explain its > > policy on genetically engineered foods. > > > > The "Genetically Engineered Food Right to Know Act" will > > call for mandatory labeling of all genetically engineered > > foods on the market. Four Republicans joined 16 Democrats in > > sponsoring the bill. The bill will be assigned to House > > committees for review in January > > 2000. The bill is expected to face overwhelming opposition > > from the biotech industry. > > > > As required by the bill, the label would read: "United > > States government notice: This product contains genetically > > engineered material, or was produced with a genetically > > engineered material." > > > > Poll after poll shows that between 80 and 95 percent of > > American consumers want genetically engineered foods to be > > labeled. Most American consumers eat unlabeled genetically > > engineered foods every day, including canola, corn, > > soybeans, and potatoes. An estimated 35 percent of the > > soyabean harvest and a quarter of the US corn crop is grown > > from genetically engineered seed. > > > > 3. FDA Overwhelmed on GMO Hearings > > > > The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is being inundated > > with citizens wishing to speak at their three public > > hearings on genetically engineered foods. The agency appears > > to be overwhelmed by the public response and is trying a > > variety of tactics to prevent the hearings from becoming too > > volatile. > > > > The hearings begin in Chicago on Nov. 18, followed by > > Washington, D.C., on November 30, and Oakland, Calif., on > > December 13. OCA will have representatives at all three > > hearings. > > > > The FDA has experienced problems in setting up the Chicago > > meeting where reportedly over 900 citizens have signed up to > > speak. As a result, the agency has moved the location of the > > meeting from its original room that holds around 100 people > > to the much larger Ralph Metcalf Federal Building at 77 West > > Jackson Boulevard. This room is still too small however, and > > many of those who have signed up to speak will be shuffled > > off to watch the hearing on satellite TV at the Mariott > > Hotel on N. Michigan Avenue. At press time, the agency is > > considering adding yet another viewing site for additional > > overflow. > > > > Meanwhile, activists in Chicago are planning a major rally > > in front of the federal building starting at 11:30. Similar > > activity is expected at the other two hearing sites. > > > > For those who cannot attend the hearings, it is important to > > submit written comments to the FDA. Those comments should > > demand that 1) the agency require rigorous pre-market safety > > testing that prove genetically engineered foods are safe; > > and 2) that all genetically engineered crops on the market > > should have thorough and prominent labeling. > > > > To submit comments, and send them to your Representatives > > and Senators, go to the Center for Food Safety's website: > > www.foodsafetynow.org > > > > To submit comments by mail, send them to: Docket Management > > Branch HFA-305, [Docket No. 99N-4282], Food & Drug > > Administration, 5630 Fishers Lane Room 1061, Rockville, MD > > 20852 > > Or comments can be registered at: www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets > > > > 4. OCA Sends Letter to USDA Supporting Cost-Share Program > > > > OCA signed a letter last month, along with over 45 other > > organizations, to the USDA calling for the upcoming national > > organic standards to include a cost-share program for > > organic farmers. The cost-share program would be designed > > for small organic farmers in order to offset the costs of > > organic certification and encourage the participation of > > more farmers in the organic certification program. > > > > Without a strong cost-share program, a majority of current > > organic farmers would not be able to be certified due to the > > fees and other expenses associated with the certification > > process under the next proposed national organic standards. > > The USDA is expected to come out with its next round of > > proposed national standards for organic food early next > > year. > > > > The state of Minnesota passed first state cost-share program > > to help organic farmers. (See Organic View, v. 16 for more > > about the MN program) > > > > 5. Is Chemical Farming Making Food Less Nutritious, Organic > > Gardening Asks USDA > > > > Several recent studies indicate that the vitamin and mineral > > content of US and British food may be declining, according > > to Organic Gardening Magazine's November/December issue. The > > magazine has sent a letter to the US Department of > > Agriculture asking that the agency respond to what appears > > to be a growing body of evidence on the harmful effects of > > industrial agriculture. > > > > In its letter, Organic Gardening cites the following > > alarming new research: > > > > * In an analysis of USDA nutrient data from 1975 to 1997, > > the Kushi Institute of Becket, MA found that the average > > calcium levels in 12 fresh vegetables declined 27 percent; > > iron levels dropped 37 percent; vitamin A levels 21 percent, > > and vitamin C levels 30 percent. > > * A similar analysis of British nutrient data from 1930 to > > 1980 published in the British Food Journal found that in 20 > > vegetables, the average calcium content had declined 19 > > percent; iron 22 percent; and potassium 14 percent. > > * A 1999 study out of the University of Wisconsin found that > > three decades of the overuse of nitrogen in US farming has > > destroyed much of the soil's fertility, causing it to age > > the equivalent of 5,000 years. > > * A new US Geological Survey report indicates that acid rain > > is depleting soil calcium levels in at least 10 eastern > > states, interfering with forest growth and weakening trees' > > resistance to insects. > > > > The Organic Gardening letter concludes, "Mr. Secretary, what > > is going on here? Why do nutrient levels in our food appear > > to be declining? Is the drop linked to preventable factors, > > such as American agriculture's overuse of acidic nitrogen > > fertilizers and the effects of acid rain? Surely you must > > want to know the answers to these questions as much as we > > do. Will you ask your top scientists to give us some direct > > answers that we can share with the readers of our magazine?" > > > > To read to the whole letter, go to: > > http://www.organicgardening.com/articles/article2.html > > > > 6. International Organic Certification Moves Forward > > > > Certification bodies accredited by the International > > Federation of Organic Agriculture Movements (IFOAM) > > Accreditation Program have taken an important step forward > > by signing a multilateral agreement (MLA) among all members. > > > > For the first time in the history of the organic food > > movement, there will be an official agreement among 14 of > > the world's most recognized and reputable organic > > certification organizations, allowing quality organically > > certified product to flow easily worldwide. The > > organizations expected to sign the MLA are AIAB (Italy), > > Argencert (Argentina), Bioagricoop (Italy), Bio-Gro > > (New Zealand), Bolicert (Bolivia), California Certified > > Organic Farmers (CCOF, USA), Farm Verified Organic > > (FVO,USA), Instituto Biodinamico (IBD, Brazil), KRAV ( > > Sweden), National Association Sustainable Agriculture > > Australia ( NASAA, Australia), Naturland-Verband (Germany), > > Oregon Tilth (OTCO, USA), Organic Growers and Buyers > > Association (OGBA, USA) and Soil Association Certification > > Ltd (UK). > > > > "It is a giant step forward for worldwide harmonization," > > says Robert Simmons, International Manager for Verified > > Organic. "It will facilitate trade and the ease of > > certification transfer, while enhancing each accredited > > certifier's ability to provide a high quality guarantee of > > organic production for consumers." > > > > IFOAM is the worldwide umbrella organization of the organic > > agriculture movement, with over 700 member organizations and > > institutions in over 100 countries all over the world. IFOAM > > is committed to a holistic approach to the development of > > organic farming systems including maintenance of a > > sustainable environment and respect for the needs of > > humanity. > > > > 7. Update from the Field > > > > OCA is making waves in the Bay Area. This month, Simon > > Harris, our California Field Organizer, started working > > full-time. He is already on the ground organizing in coops > > and on the streets. The response to our work in California > > has been overwhelmingly positive. In just 15 days, he has > > started organizing projects in 14 coops across the state. > > He is also the key volunteer coordinator for the Rally > > Against Genetically Engineered Foods being held on December > > 18, the same day as the FDA hearing in Oakland. Please > > contact Simon Harris at simon@organicconsumers.org to get > > involved in OCA activities in California. > > > > 8. Important Recent Articles > > > > Below are the titles and links to interesting articles > > published recently on issues related to organic food and > > food safety. These articles can be found on the website of > > our affiliated organization, the BioDemocracy Campaign > > (www.purefood.org) > > > > 11-12 - Health Hazards of GMO Yeast in Breads and Beer > > http://www.purefood.org/ge/devioddna.cfm > > > > 11-10 - Organic Booming in Great Britain - > > http://www.purefood.org/Organic/growthgb.cfm > > > > 11-3 - Reassessing Ecological Risks of Genetically Altered > > Plants - http://www.purefood.org/ge/ecohazards.cfm > > > > > > Note: Previous issues of Organic View can be found at: > > www.organicconsumers.org > > Or you can e-mail requests for back issues to: > > news@organicconsumers.org > > > > Please Re-print and distribute Organic View. We ask only > > that proper attribution is included. > > > > Thank you for subscribing to Organic View. You are one of > > over 5,500 subscribers who receive this publication. Want to > > get more involved with Organic Consumers Association? > > Contact us at 218-726-1443 or campaign@organicconsumers.org > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > OCA staff > > email: info@organicconsumers.org > > Organic Consumers Association > > Ronnie Cummins, National Director > > 6114 Hwy 61 > > Little Marais, Minnesota 55614 > > Telephone: 218-226-4792 Fax: 218-226-4157 > > > > http://www.organicconsumers.org > > > > To subscribe to this free electronic newsletter, Organic View, send an > > email to: > > organicview@organicconsumers.org > > with the simple message in the body of the text: > > subscribe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 16:55:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05835 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01542; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:53:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01486 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:53:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from dotty.atext.com ([199.172.152.205]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991121215032.VOLS321.ewey.excite.com@dotty.atext.com>; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:50:32 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, GMO-L@cornell.edu Subject: Fw: FDA Testimony - Mark Knapp Message-Id: <943221031.25075.281@excite.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:50:31 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 786 More from Catnip Farm... Lucy On Sun, 21 Nov 99 15:53:22 PST, rich and ericka dana wrote: > > > > Ericka, > > > > Here is the transcript of my FDA testimony that you requested. In > > lieu of being able to underline any of the text, I have used all > > capitals to emphasize certain words. > > > > Please send me a copy of your testimony too. I am compiling as many > > of the comments as I can, and I will forward them to Marnie Glickman > > (in Washington) and Simon Harris (in Oakland). Both of them are > > field organizers with the Organic Consumers Association. > > > > I'm glad we had the chance to meet. > > > > > Mark > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Hello. My name is Mark Knapp. I am a radiological health scientist, > > and I have traveled from Minneapolis to be here today. I would have > > liked to have attended such a public meeting in my own state, but I > > understand the agency=92s limited resources and wide overall public > > health responsibility. > > > > Judging by the recent RASH of Monsanto TV advertising, I ALSO > > understand the biotechnology industry=92s seemingly endless resources > > when huge profits and power are at stake. THEY have no PROBLEM > > putting a corporate HIT TEAM on a last-minute airplane (in first > > class) to ANY location. > > > > Having said that, I would like to thank the FDA for so graciously > > allowing me to take 120 seconds of its time. I=92m sure that agency > > members would rather be busy extending their relationships with > > biotechnology promoters to set themselves up with lucrative industry > > employment after government service. So, I=92m glad to TAKE AWAY some > > of that time. > > > > To be in this room, I had to surrender my 4th Amendment right to be > > free from search or seizure without any prior suspicion. My body and > > my belongings were searched with electro-magnetic fields. However, > > at least SOME of the Bill of Rights is still left. > > > > And, in particular, our democracy is still alive -- whether the > > biotechnology industry likes it or not!! The CONTEMPT that biotech > > companies and the FDA seem to have for democracy reminds me of my 14 > > years of experience with the nuclear industry and the Department of > > Energy. > > > > The fundamental currency of democracy is the TRUTH. NOT labeling > > genetically engineered food is, therefore, an ATTACK on democracy. I > > am APPALLED that there is even any consideration of not providing > > clear, concise, non-biased wording on food labels. And it=92s really > > not that difficult! Here is the wrapper of an organic chocolate bar > > that I ate for lunch. In plain English it says, > > > > "All ingredients are certified organically grown and > > processed in accordance with the California Organic > > Foods Act of 1990." > > > > Proponents of genetically engineered food claim that there is no > > substantial difference between biotech food and organic food. If > > this were true, then why does the U.S. Patent Office issue patents > > for genetically engineered food? > > > > Finally, the TAMPERING with the genetic code of life reminds me of > > The Sorcerer=92s Apprentice. Ten years ago, George Leonard -- the > > Associate Chief of the U.S. Forest Service -- spoke about replacing > > FORESTS with tree plantations. His statement bears repeating in this > > forum. He said, > > > > "We know what nature can do, and we=92re relatively > > certain that we can do better than nature." > > > > What unmitigated arrogance!! > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 16:59:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05856 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01774; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:56:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from squealer.excite.com ([199.172.153.143]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01720 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 15:56:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from almond.excite.com ([198.3.99.227]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991121215155.VOUQ321.ewey.excite.com@almond.excite.com>; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:51:55 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, GMO-L@cornell.edu Subject: Fw: re: FDA - an additional view from Mark Knapp Message-Id: <943221115.5744.682@excite.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:51:55 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 787 On Sun, 21 Nov 99 15:57:38 PST, rich and ericka dana wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > > > As I wrote last night, I saw three main areas of manipulation by the > > FDA. Each one maximized the chance for a favorable outcome for the > > biotechnology industry. Here is the third: > > > > 3) Most of the public was physically separated from the actual > > meeting. > > > > In a classic "divide and conquer" strategy, the FDA split the > > biotechnology opponents into two groups. While the meeting took > > place in the Ralph Metcalfe Federal Building in downtown Chicago, the > > hundreds of interested citizens not registered to speak were shunted > > away from the action to the Marriott Hotel on Michigan Avenue -- a > > full MILE away. > > > > In a large ballroom at the hotel, the FDA provided a video screen for > > people to view the meeting remotely. This FDA setup was about as > > good as staying home and watching C-SPAN with friends. And, of > > course, staying home is probably what the FDA wanted people to do > > anyway. > > > > Greenpeace responded to the situation by renting a hearing room of > > their own at DePaul University -- just three blocks east of the > > Federal Building. During his initial comments on the morning > > discussion panel, Charles Margulis announced that people watching > > from the Marriott could go to the Greenpeace auditorium and speak at > > length. He also announced that a videotape of this additional > > testimony would be sent to the FDA for inclusion in the record. > > > > Stay tuned for news about what the public actually told the FDA > > yesterday afternoon. > > > > > Mark Knapp > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 21 17:04:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05924 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 17:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02550; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:02:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from snowball.excite.com (snowball-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.116]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02423 for ; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 16:01:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from swirly.excite.com ([199.172.153.107]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991121215745.ZOWF6196.gigi.excite.com@swirly.excite.com>; Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:57:45 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org, GMO-L@cornell.edu Subject: Fw: Mark Knapp's FDA Hearing Review 11/18/99 Message-Id: <943221465.27649.25@excite.com> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 13:57:45 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.84 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 788 On Sun, 21 Nov 99 15:54:59 PST, rich and ericka dana wrote: > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Today was an impressive demonstration of lengths to which corrupt > > power will go to maintain itself. But it was also an opportunity to > > speak truth to the face of that power. > > > > I don't remember what is already known about the events here, so I > > will try to summarize everything that I experienced at the FDA public > > meeting in Chicago today. > > > > First of all, the entire setting of the hearing was very controlled > > and very intimidating. I have felt more welcome in traffic court > > than I felt in the Federal Building today. The FDA set up a long > > registration table in the large hallway outside of the meeting room. > > At the entrance to the room was an x-ray machine and a metal detector > > that were used to search everyone and their belongings. There were > > about eight uniformed police officers at the room entrance. Their > > demeanor was brusque and dominating. They only permitted registered > > speakers, panel members, the news media, and FDA members to enter. > > > > Setting aside the events leading up to the meeting, I saw three main > > areas of manipulation by the FDA. Each one maximized the chance for > > a favorable outcome for the biotechnology industry. > > > > 1) The composition of the panels was highly lopsided in favor of > > genetically engineered food. > > > > Each panel sat at a long table on the right side of a > > slightly-elevated stage. The FDA sat at another long table on the > > left side. From right to left, the FDA members were: > > > > Jane E. Henney, M.D. > > Commissioner of Food and Drugs > > > > Bob Lake > > Director, Regulations and Policy > > Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, FDA > > > > Sharon Smith Holston > > Deputy Commissioner for International and Constituent > > Relations, FDA > > > > Margaret Porter, Esq. > > Chief Counsel > > > > Stephen F. Sundlof, D.V.M., Ph.D. > > Director, Center for Veterinary Medicine, FDA > > > > James Maryanski, Ph.D. > > Biotechnology Coordinator > > Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, FDA > > > > The meeting started at 9:00 with Commissioner Henney speaking for 15 > > minutes. Lake and Maryanski took up the next HOUR with simplistic > > slide presentations that were insulting to the intelligence of any > > informed citizen. > > > > There were two discussion panels -- one in the morning and one in the > > afternoon. The topic of the morning panel was "Scientific, Safety, > > and Regulatory Issues." These were its members: > > > > Dr. Ralph Hardy > > President, National Agricultural Biotechnology Council > > Boyce Thompson Institute for Plant Research, Inc. > > > > Dr. Val Giddings > > Vice President for Food and Agriculture > > Biotechnology Industry Organization > > > > Dr. Michael Jacobson > > Executive Director > > Center for Science in the Public Interest > > > > Charles Margulis > > Greenpeace Genetic Engineering Campaign > > > > Dr. Steven Taylor > > Professor, Department of Food Science and Technology > > University of Nebraska > > > > Dr. Barbara P. Glenn > > Federation of Animal Science Societies > > > > On this panel, Charles was the only true opponent of genetically > > engineered food. Michael Jacobson provided some support to Charles > > on some safety questions. However, it was clear that Jacobson > > thought that biotechnology can be good. > > > > Charles was also the only one without a doctorate. In my view, this > > setup was a deliberate attempt by the FDA to portray the opposition > > as an unqualified fringe movement. > > > > Despite the odds against him, Charles did an excellent job. He spoke > > well, and he quickly remembered facts and figures. > > > > The topic of the afternoon panel was "Public Information and > > Labeling." These were its members: > > > > Dr. Marion Nestle > > Professor and Chair, Department of Nutrition and Food Studies > > New York University > > > > Dr. Michael Phillips > > Executive Director for Food and Agriculture > > Biotechnology Industry Organization > > > > Dr. Edward Groth, III > > Director, Technical Policy and Public Service > > Consumers Union > > > > Lisa D. Katic, R.D. > > Director, Scientific and Nutrition Policy > > Grocery Manufacturers of America > > > > Carl B. Loop > > Vice President, American Farm Bureau Federation > > > > Nestle and Groth both argued forcefully for explicit labeling. They > > belittled the panel members (particularly Phillips) who continually > > expressed the "great difficulty" of labeling that would please > > everyone and not "mislead" consumers. > > > > The composition of this panel was better, and the discussion was more > > lively than it had been in the morning. In particular, the audience > > became more boisterous, and they completely interrupted the speakers > > a few times. > > > > There was a discussion about what threshold of GE content in a food > > should activate a requirement for labeling. Nestle suggested 1 > > percent, Phillips recommended 3 percent, and Groth laid out a > > convincing argument for a standard based on the lowest detectable > > concentration -- a standard that would start around a TENTH of a > > percent and become increasingly lower with technological > > improvements. Meanwhile, the audience repeatedly shouted, "Zero!" > > and "None!" > > > > The afternoon discussion was most remarkable for a few revealing > > quotes that came from the biotechnology proponents. As if the entire > > atmosphere of the FDA meeting was not already Orwellian enough, Lisa > > Katic spoke about polling as a process to "get into the minds of > > consumers." Carl Loop flatly stated that our society "should not > > make the mistake of using the precautionary principle" for public > > safety. I could hardly believe my ears, but he actually said it. > > (See http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=3D532 and > > http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=3D1508 for more = > on > > the precautionary principle.) > > > > Neither panel had a biological scientist, active in the field, who > > opposed genetically engineered food. This omission was a key to > > framing the debate for the news media who attended. > > > > And speaking of the media ... > > > > 2) The timing of the meeting agenda was set up to minimize news > > media coverage of the public participation. > > > > When the meeting began in the morning, the room was teeming with > > cameras and reporters. I counted about a dozen television cameras. > > Throughout the morning a few cameramen roamed along the aisles taking > > candid shots of the audience and the stage. Of course, they couldn't > > see us doing much -- because we we're allowed to speak yet. Whenever > > one viewed me, I shook my head and did my best to look disgusted. > > > > The agenda dragged along with FDA presentations, brief recesses, two > > panel discussions, and an hour lunch break. Throughout the day, the > > ranks of the news media slowly thinned. By the time the FDA was > > ready to let the public to speak, it was 2:30 in the afternoon, and > > most of the media was long gone. > > > > The FDA clearly understood that the deadlines of evening news > > reporters could be used to muzzle the spread of any dissent. At the > > same time, the agency could still claim that the public had been > > allow to participate in the process. > > > > to be continued ... > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.c > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 22 09:09:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04261 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02177; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:07:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.69]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA02046 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:06:32 -0600 (CST) From: Walklight@aol.com Received: from Walklight@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id d.0.13b632d4 (3968) for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:05:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.13b632d4.256aa7c6@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:05:58 EST Subject: Change email address To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 789 Hello Please change my email address to hots@turtledreams.com. I will be pulling the plug on AOL very soon Thanks Stef Mattlage From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 22 10:29:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05924 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA10501; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:27:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA10424 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 09:27:13 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id d.0.f30e8552 (4010) for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:26:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.f30e8552.256abaa2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 10:26:26 EST Subject: Re: New CSA To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 790 Welcome Catherine, In addition to Beth's advice, I would add encourage your subscribers to linger on the farm on their pick up days. The reason most of our customers subscribe is to get a "farm experience." We have pick your own options for our subscribers. Things like blueberries, strawberries and raspberries which take forever to hand pick for volumes of people are u-pick here. We also encourage subscribers to pick their own culinary herbs from our herb garden. Each herb bed is labeled for their convenience. For an additional fee, a subscriber can have a bouquet bucket which they can fill each week. Also, don't try and serve everyone the same produce. We pick everything that is ripe for the day and put it out in baskets. Full subscriptions get a couple of staples such as stir fry greens, salad mix, potatoes, etc., and then choose eight items they want. Leeks, asparagus, honey, dried tomatoes, garlic, carrots, beets, broccoli, fruit leather, peas, etc., are put out for their enjoyment. Not everyone likes our sweet beets, or tender leeks so we offer a diverse selection and let them choose. By the end of the day however, the choices diminish. This encourages our subscribers to come early for the best choices. It is a negative reinforcement for those who forget their pick up day and take home the leftovers the following day. It remains very good and fresh produce. But it may not be exactly what they wanted and knew was available. Start small and keep diverse marketing options open. The majority of our produce is distributed through our CSA. However, we still sell bumper crops at the local Farmers Market and have a value added product we sell through wholesale and retail accounts. You have to pay your bills. Don't rely on one market to generate your income. Farming is risky enough. Marketing through one outlet is folly. Good luck, Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 22 15:36:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11851 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA19152; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:25:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18989 for ; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:24:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from ants.excite.com ([199.172.152.146]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991122201919.KFIH6196.gigi.excite.com@ants.excite.com>; Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:19:19 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: "Richard Roth" , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: rfarm Questionaire Share Message-Id: <943301959.24077.981@excite.com> Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:19:19 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.110 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 791 On Thu, 18 Nov 1999 19:38:55 -0700, Richard Roth wrote: > I really appreciated the sample surveys some of you > sent me. Without them I would have never gotten mine out this year. I > thought I'd go ahead and share my compiled and adapted survey with > everyone. Hope you enjoy it, and find it useful. > > Richard, Love the survey. It asks such meaningful questions that i had to fill it out and send it back Lucy goodman-Owsley > *************************************************** > > > One of the greatest tools CSAs like rfarm have for improving their > service to customers is an End of Season Survey. I have neglected > this in the past, but this year, with the aid of the internet, I was > able to ask for and recieve sample surveys from several other CSAs > around the country. From them I was able to adapt the questions to the > rfarm experience. Please take the time to read, fill out, and send. > Attach additional sheets as necessary. > ***************************** > 1. How many times this past season: > > * did tasting some fruit or vegetable from rfarm trigger the > spontaneous awakening of Kundalini? > I didn't have any of your veggies but did consume plenty of my own CSA veggies and i'd say I had this expierence a few times especially before produce started to swallow me whole for several months > * did these events involve recipies? i really try not to be recepie dependant > > * If so, care to share? > > > > > > 2. Restfulness/Wakefulness: Do you find yourself > > going to sleep when you are tired and waking more relaxed and rested, > and getting out of bed only when you truly felt like it - more and more > - now as compared to before subscribing to rfarm? > > 3. How many times per day: > > * A. did you tell some one you loved =ECI love you=EE before you > subscribed to rfarm? > * B. do you tell some one you love =ECI love you=EE now, since joini= > ng? > I have found the "I Love You " Phenomenom has greatly improved since going into ful;l time farming though i don't know by how much > Enter percent improvement ________. > > 4. By your own estimate: > how many lives have you =ECsaved=EE since joining rfarm? > > Please list specific examples.(Attach additional pages if necessary.) > > What a killer question-I have never considered that what we do saves lives but of course it does. better food, no worker exploitation, not poisons being flushed into the environment. > 5. Have complete strangers begun unexpectedly embracing you in public > yet? No, Maybe because I live in the midwest. We do have more and more CSA hugging all the time though. > > If so: > > * A. To the best of your recollection, how soon after joining rfarm > did this phenomenon begin? > > * B. Do you associate this phenomenon with any particular fruit or > vegetable, or season? > > * C. If so, which one(s)? I think strawberries induce more hugging than most fruits > > 6.Have you > > * learned any new stories since joining rfarm? > > * found yourself telling more stories since joining rfarm? > > * found yourself, more and more, hearing and telling stories as you > eat fruits and vegetables from rfarm? > > * found that the overall quality of stories in general, and the > satisfaction you get from hearing or telling them, increasing since > > joining rfarm? > > * Care to share a good story? (If so, attach ----->) > > 7. How long after joining rfarm > > * did it take you to forgive your parents for the truly terrible > things they did to you as a child? > > * did it take you to forgive yourself? > > * did it take you to realize you were living in a state of bliss? > farm therepy - I love it > 8. If you woke up tomorrow and found you were dead, and that there was > no Chereafter, that dead was just stop end nada > > * would you feel cheated, would you have even one single regret? > (Please, just Yes or No) No, I'd be dead. > * Can you tell me specifically what rfarm fruits or vegetables have > to do with this question? > Beets and turnips-hell, most fall root crops i think deal with death and nothingness. i am not sure why, just a feeling. Could be they are some of the earliest crops and the last crops so they can represent birth and death..... > 9. Can you think of even one single question more that I could add to > this end of season survey next year? > If so, enter here: > If you could be any mineral, what would it be and why? > > 10. Did you really think there was anything you could say on a survey > that would make me change my ways? > > 11. Please circle your favorite question. > > Get your own envelope and stamp and mail (if you feel like it.) to: > > 1318 Bruce Street > Chico, CA 95928 > > HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!!!! > > Remember, each and every week you stop by the rfarm table at the > Saturday Market you get a free bunch of carrots - all the way through > February! (Or as long as they last.) > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 23 08:38:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29084 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08915; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:15:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from users.ozlinx.com.au (root@users.ozlinx.com.au [203.46.58.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA08818 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:14:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from ozlinx.com.au ([202.61.190.90]) by users.ozlinx.com.au (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA16898 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:12:30 +1000 Message-ID: <383A9410.2B67F75F@ozlinx.com.au> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 23:18:08 +1000 From: emanuele X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 792 Could you please unsubscribe me from the list. thank you. Emanuele J Gelsi From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 23 08:56:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA29298 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA10053; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:29:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp5.mindspring.com (smtp5.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09995 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 07:28:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from fvdcp (user-2iveo0u.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.96.30]) by smtp5.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29786 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:28:47 -0500 (EST) From: "Marnie Glickman" To: Subject: RE: unsubscribe Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:19:21 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-reply-to: <383A9410.2B67F75F@ozlinx.com.au> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 793 I would like to unsubscribe as well. I have been unable to figure how to do it. Thanks! Marnie Glickman mglickman@igc.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org [mailto:owner-csa-l@prairienet.org]On Behalf Of emanuele Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:18 AM To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: unsubscribe Could you please unsubscribe me from the list. thank you. Emanuele J Gelsi From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 23 10:21:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00782 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16832; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:44:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16731 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:43:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from dan (bsg-ma1a-62.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.62]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA06736; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:43:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002601bf35c1$1969fd40$3ef86ed1@dan> Reply-To: "Dan Hook" From: "Dan Hook" To: "emanuele" , Subject: Re: unsubscribe Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:43:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3115.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 You need to go to the main web page of this list I do not know the address of the top of my head. But type in Community Supported Ag. and go to the page that talks about CSA-L. On that page are the unsub directions. Beth -----Original Message----- From: emanuele To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Tuesday, November 23, 1999 8:14 AM Subject: unsubscribe >Could you please unsubscribe me from the list. thank you. > >Emanuele J Gelsi > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 23 10:43:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01144 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 10:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18510; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:01:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from compaqwww.townsqr.com (mail.townsqr.com [207.18.224.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18399 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 09:00:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from tom-speraneo (unverified [63.78.117.81]) by compaqwww.townsqr.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 2.1.5) with SMTP id for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:57:06 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19991123145812.00a70f68@townsqr.com> X-Sender: snsaquasys@townsqr.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 08:58:12 -0600 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: S & S Aqua Farm Subject: CSA-L News and FAQ Update Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 >Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 00:50:33 -0500 >To: CSA-L@prairienet.org >From: John Barclay >Subject: CSA-L News and FAQ Update >Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN > > >1. Digest feature. >2. Responses from last survey. >3. Most Recent FAQ. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >1. Digest feature and other useful feature: > >The CSA-L list may now be obtained in digest format. If you choose to >receive CSA-L in digest format you will receive the entire set of messages >from the previous day at 2:00am in one single message. The advantage to >this is that it keeps your e-mail box uncluttered. The disadvantage is >that there is up to a 24 hour turnaround on messages so you may unknowingly >repeat what someone else has posted. > >To receive CSA-L in digest format, send an email addressed to >listproc@prairienet.org with no subject line and only SET CSA-L MAIL DIGEST >in the body of the message. >i.e. > To: listproc@prairienet.org > From: jbarclay@prairienet.org > Subject: > ---------------------------- > SET CSA-L MAIL DIGEST > >To turn off digest format, simply send the same message replacing SET CSA-L >MAIL DIGEST with SET CSA-L MAIL > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >2. Responses from last survey: > >The last survey of CSA-L members asked which other email lists related to >CSAs they are subscribed to. There were only a handful of responses so I'm >not bothering with a summary. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >3. Most Recent Frequently Asked Questions > >see: http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/FAQ.html > > > S&S Aqua Farm, 8386 County Road 8820, West Plains, MO 65775 417-256-5124 Web page http://www.townsqr.com/snsaqua/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 23 13:05:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04976 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 13:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA06143; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:46:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.gofast.net (ns.gofast.net [209.46.63.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05956 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:44:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from ilsr.org (unknown [206.144.167.85]) by mail.gofast.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D07638068 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:44:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <383A7DBD.3E486BBB@ilsr.org> Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:43:02 +0000 From: Brian Levy Reply-To: blevy@ilsr.org Organization: ILSR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Policies that promote CSA's, small local farms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 796 CSA-L: I am a researcher at ILSR's New Rules Project, aimed at "designing rules as if community matters". We research rules that support family farms, posting them on our website (http://www.newrules.org/biz/farms/rules/html) for activists and government officials to view and (hopefully) adopt. We also publish a new Family Farm Rules Bulletin designed to highlight the policies needed for strong agricultural communities (to subscribe email blevy@ilsr.org). I am curious to know if there are any policies that CSA's or other small farms have encountered that directly support their operations. I am aware of several policies such as Berkeley's new school cafeteria program that requires the purchase of locally grown organic produce. In several farmers markets across the US, new systems have been put into place to allow food stamps and EBT cards to be used. But it seems that basically CSA's and other small farms are operating in a marketplace without any structural benefits to promote them-- at least not yet. We need rules that change this, be it new tax credits, purchasing requirements, labelling requirements, preferencial treatment for locally owned businesses, etc. Does anyone have any examples of local or state rules? Please let me know if you do. Note- clearly national level policies, such as a new tax on energy, would have profound consequences on promoting local production of food. However, we're currently limiting our focus on state and local initiatives already enacted or formally proposed. Thanks, Brian Levy -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brian D. Levy, Research Associate Institute for Local Self Reliance 1313 5th St. SE, Suite 303 Minneapolis, MN 55414 Office: 612-379-3815 Fax: 612-379-3920 ILSR Home Page: http://www.ilsr.org/ New Rules Project: http://www.newrules.org/ Email: blevy@ilsr.org - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 24 07:13:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20163 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:13:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA03020; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:09:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from www.mebbs.com (www.mebbs.com [207.177.12.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA02671 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:04:15 -0600 (CST) Received: by www.mebbs.com from localhost (router,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:35:19 -0600 Received: by www.mebbs.com from ur39.mebbs.com (207.177.12.39::mail daemon,SLMail V3.2); Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:35:17 -0600 Message-ID: <000901bf3674$3657e760$270cb1cf@boblkbns.netins.net> From: "Ron Boyer" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:05:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-SLUIDL: A8086CCE-A15511D3-8ADC0020-182AA861 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 797 I would like to be unsubscibe From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 24 11:37:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24502 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA24896; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:35:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (f290.hotmail.com [207.82.251.181]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA24769 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:34:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 85749 invoked by uid 0); 24 Nov 1999 16:34:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19991124163406.85748.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.178.103.193 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:34:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.178.103.193] From: "kerry wicker" To: boblkbns@www.mebbs.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:34:06 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 Is there anyway these folks can unsubscribe w/o sending the email to everyone? >From: "Ron Boyer" >To: >Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:05:26 -0600 > >I would like to be unsubscibe > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 24 12:02:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24965 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27295; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:00:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26728 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:56:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991124165335.HFGX22679.fortune.excite.com@flash.excite.com> for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:53:35 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: HOW DO I UNSUBSCRIBE TO CSA-L? Message-Id: <943462415.20098.631@excite.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:53:35 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 799 On Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:34:06 PST, kerry wicker wrote: > Is there anyway these folks can unsubscribe w/o sending the email to > everyone? This is straight from CSA-L homepage and has everything you all need to know to unsubscribe to this list Lucy > Send a message to "listproc@prairienet.org" with "unsubscribe CSA-L" in the message. Omit the quotes. You may leave the subject line blank. If this doesn't work, send an e-mail to jbarclay@prairienet.org and he will unsubscribe you. You may also fill out the form at http://www.prairienet.org/pcsa/CSA-L/subscribing.html > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Nov 24 13:52:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27135 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07448; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:50:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06850 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:44:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.207.69.77] (dialup012.serv.net [207.207.69.77]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA07513 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:44:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911241844.KAA07513@mx.serv.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:46:06 -0800 Subject: Re: From: "Adam Gottschalk" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 800 >Is there anyway these folks can unsubscribe w/o sending the email to >everyone? > Frankly, and I mean this in the most constructive way, the fact that people blithely send unsub messages to the main list is a sign of total inconsideration. No matter what list it is that you sign up for, you are given, either on the web or in email, explicit instructions on how to unsubscribe. In fact, every such set of instructions I've ever seen (I've been subscribed to many lists) has emphasized very clearly, "Do not send commands to the list, otherwise everyone will be forced to read your administrative material thinking it pertains to the list topic." If you are able to sign yourself up correctly, you should have the consideration for others to look at the pertinent material you were given (RTFM!) on how to sign off. It's in there. (You should always save the introductory messages you are sent when you subscribe to a list.) [Having said that, every list I've been on has also had to contend with folks who didn't bother to learn how to participate along the specified lines...] >From the intro material to this list (I saved my intro messages): >Send a message to "listproc@prairienet.org" with "unsubscribe CSA-L" in the >message. Omit the >quotes. Adam From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Nov 25 08:24:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10574 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA05683; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 07:22:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com ([12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05600 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 07:21:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.91] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7B72AFB01DA; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:20:55 -0500 Message-ID: <002a01bf3748$080ff620$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:21:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF371E.1E7083A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF371E.1E7083A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone!! I am extremely new to CSA's and am really doing my = research before implementing one from my garden. I've thoroughly = enjoyed reading your posts. CSA's here in eastern North Carolina are = almost unheard of. There are 2-3 up near the mountains, but none on the = coast where I live-that I know of. And as far as organic farms here I = only know of 2, and 1 of them is a demonstration farm for large scale = farmers. Anyway... This past spring was my first year as a market gardener, selling to = friends & at the local Farmer's Market. I was the only organic seller. = I'm not certified, but am in the process. We have a 40 acre farm, which = is leased to a traditional farmer-aarrgghh!! My garden is only 1/2 an = acre, but I do intensive gardening-& surprise everyone & myself with the = amount I produce. I plan to expand to a full acre this winter. In 5 = years, I'd like to have 5 acres in full production. I figure that's as = much as I can handle with a couple of part timers-my 2 dd's.=20 I know to start a CSA will be an uphill struggle as the population = here is not familiar with this idea, and will just now look twice at = organic produce. I am thinking of "pretending" this coming year that I = have a 10 member CSA, and growing, planting & harvesting just as if = those members were real. Then donating the produce to our local soup = kitchen, and food pantry. I figure this way I'd become used to = producing set amounts on schedule, and get my "newbie" mistakes out of = the way without losing clients. I know when I really do start one, I = will still make mistakes, but I feel I'd make fewer this way. Does this = sound like a good idea?? There is a large organic food co-op here that would greatly enjoy a = CSA, but I want to be very professional when approaching them. How did = y'all go about getting your first clients?? Thank you so much for your wonderful advice-I'm really grateful! Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF371E.1E7083A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
         Hi everyone!!  I am extremely new to = CSA's=20 and am really doing my research before implementing one from my = garden. =20 I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts.  CSA's here in eastern = North=20 Carolina are almost unheard of.  There are 2-3 up near the = mountains, but=20 none on the coast where I live-that I know of.  And as far as = organic farms=20 here I only know of 2, and 1 of them is a demonstration farm for large = scale=20 farmers.  Anyway...
         This past spring was my first year as a = market=20 gardener, selling to friends & at the local Farmer's Market.  I = was the=20 only organic seller.  I'm not certified, but am in the = process.  We=20 have a 40 acre farm, which is leased to a traditional = farmer-aarrgghh!!  My=20 garden is only 1/2 an acre, but I do intensive gardening-& surprise = everyone=20 & myself with the amount I produce.  I plan to expand to a full = acre=20 this winter.  In 5 years, I'd like to have 5 acres in full=20 production. I figure that's as much as I can handle with a couple = of part=20 timers-my 2 dd's. 
        I know to start a CSA will be an uphill struggle = as the=20 population here is not familiar with this idea, and will just now look = twice at=20 organic produce.  I am thinking of "pretending" this coming year = that I=20 have a 10 member CSA, and growing, planting & harvesting just as if = those=20 members were real.  Then donating the produce to our local = soup=20 kitchen, and food pantry.  I figure this way I'd become used to = producing=20 set amounts on schedule, and get my "newbie" mistakes out of the = way=20 without losing clients.  I know when I really do start one, I will = still=20 make mistakes, but I feel I'd make fewer this way.  Does this sound = like a=20 good idea??
         There is a large organic food co-op here = that=20 would greatly enjoy a CSA, but I want to be very professional when = approaching=20 them.  How did y'all go about getting your first clients??
         Thank you so much for your wonderful = advice-I'm=20 really grateful!
     
    Elizabeth Pike
     
        
    ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF371E.1E7083A0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Nov 25 13:27:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13880 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23242; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:26:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from web802.mail.yahoo.com (web802.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23181 for ; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 12:25:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19991125182534.4343.rocketmail@web802.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.103.195.194] by web802.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:25:34 PST Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:25:34 -0800 (PST) From: Kirsten Saylor Subject: CSAs To: CSAlist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 Hi Elizabeth, I'm sort of a lurker on the listserv, since I am not currently farming. However, I think you are on to a good start. If you've already got the experience of growing and have been able to talk with some CSA farmers about their operations, then I suggest finding a few souls who know you and really understand what CSA is about and what to support you getting started. I'm from Minneapolis, MN and I've had several friends who have started out that way. Certainly the atmosphere for CSAs makes finding these souls easier no CSA starters -- but I bet you already know people who want to support you. Also, maybe you missed the big hoopla last month (or two?). I work with the Sustainable Agriculture Network and we have been calling CSAs around the nation trying to pull together a current National listing. It's already on the web (see www.sare.org at the top of the page), but will be updated continually. If you do plan on being a CSA next year, you can add yourself to the directory online. Also, if you could check NC's listing to see if the CSAs you mentioned below are on it. If not, could you let them know about the directory? The directory has already been mentioned in Parade magazine (Nov 14), but there's no reason to think the publicity will stop there. Also, when you go to the sight and goto www.csacenter.org there'll be some resources listed which are helpful to farmers. So please check these out, but there is no substitute for visiting and networking with CSA farmers. Kirsten Saylor --- Elizabeth Pike wrote: > Hi everyone!! I am extremely new to CSA's and am really doing my research before > implementing one from my garden. I've thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts. CSA's > here in eastern North Carolina are almost unheard of. There are 2-3 up near the > mountains, but none on the coast where I live-that I know of. And as far as organic > farms here I only know of 2, and 1 of them is a demonstration farm for large scale > farmers. Anyway... > This past spring was my first year as a market gardener, selling to friends & at > the local Farmer's Market. I was the only organic seller. I'm not certified, but am > in the process. We have a 40 acre farm, which is leased to a traditional > farmer-aarrgghh!! My garden is only 1/2 an acre, but I do intensive gardening-& > surprise everyone & myself with the amount I produce. I plan to expand to a full acre > this winter. In 5 years, I'd like to have 5 acres in full production. I figure that's > as much as I can handle with a couple of part timers-my 2 dd's. > I know to start a CSA will be an uphill struggle as the population here is not > familiar with this idea, and will just now look twice at organic produce. I am > thinking of "pretending" this coming year that I have a 10 member CSA, and growing, > planting & harvesting just as if those members were real. Then donating the produce to > our local soup kitchen, and food pantry. I figure this way I'd become used to > producing set amounts on schedule, and get my "newbie" mistakes out of the way without > losing clients. I know when I really do start one, I will still make mistakes, but I > feel I'd make fewer this way. Does this sound like a good idea?? > There is a large organic food co-op here that would greatly enjoy a CSA, but I > want to be very professional when approaching them. How did y'all go about getting > your first clients?? > Thank you so much for your wonderful advice-I'm really grateful! > > Elizabeth Pike > pike@always-online.com > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place. Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Nov 26 12:24:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA24594 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA25329; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:19:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA25204 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 11:17:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from bucky.excite.com ([199.172.152.80]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991126170850.ZJGW6196.gigi.excite.com@bucky.excite.com> for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:08:50 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: re: Starting a CSA Message-Id: <943636130.12422.504@excite.com> Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:08:50 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.88.169 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 803 >Elizabeth, I have been doing CSA for two years and it is no walk in the park. I am concerned about your lack of expierence with a market garden. It takes a minimum of 3 years to get competent at market growing-sure you had abundance this year but what about a bad year. Remember each season is very different. I say this because on our 7th year market gardening we hit the hard year. Drought slow markets, small CSA group. It was humbling to watch your #1 cash crop wither and die. We got into CSA after 4 years of having a market garden. CSA management is different too. Growing is the easy part. Most CSA problems stem from differing personalities, the grower feeling overwhelmed or the lack of understanding of why CSA is being done. I personally don't see CSA's as a good marketing ploy (though I used to) I do see them as vehicles of social change. People who join them must see it that way too-not just as an exotic and PC way to get food or a way to get organic food (they can get that at a farmer's market) or a cheap way to buy food (it isn't) We recruited the first year by asking friends if they would be interested and than had a public meeting (very informal). I think informational meetings are a great technique for gaining membership as it can explain the concept well. I have not done a slide presentation yet but am working on one as those are particularily effective (lots of pics of people having fun on the farm, working in the gardens plus nice veggie shots). I have also made fliers and put them at places such as out local food co-op, farmer's market table, health food stores, doctors officies-anyplace there are health minded or cooks around. Realize this is a very alien way to get food for most people. You are asking them to take active responsibilty for their food. If the members do not understand this they will not be satisfied and will not reup the next year. Ask yourself why you are doing a CSA? Ask prospective members why they are joining. Get a core group together ASAP. We have not done this and it has made our CSA unstable, you will need 5 to 10 people who share your vision of CSA. Read the book "Farms of Tomorrow Revisited" by Steve McFadden and Treager Groh. It explains the whole ball of wax well. Some web sites to look at; Biodynamics.com has a very nice CSA page and My site (URL below) has tons of CSA links. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Nov 27 01:26:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00878 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 01:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA05829; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:25:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05771 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:24:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from WolfeNet (sea-ts3-p33.wolfenet.com [205.163.74.33]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA25852 for ; Fri, 26 Nov 1999 22:24:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199911270624.WAA25852@wolfenet.com> X-Sender: diana@popserv.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:21:27 +0000 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Diana Chesterfield Subject: re: CSA In-Reply-To: <943636130.12422.504@excite.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 Just out of curiosity, does anyone rest their soil every 7th year, or do folks continue planting year after year in the same soil? What strategies or principals do folks use for soil rejuvenation? Also, I'd like to hear at what timeline farmers pick their produce? Do you wait until it is completely ripe or at what stage? Thanks, Diana From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Nov 27 07:39:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03397 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA19129; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:36:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com ([12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19062 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 06:36:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.62] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A00AE3015C; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:35:22 -0500 Message-ID: <003101bf38d4$0217ce40$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:36:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF38AA.188924A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01BF38AA.188924A0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_002E_01BF38AA.188924A0" ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01BF38AA.188924A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Diana, in answer to your question about resting your soil, I garden = intensively using 4' wide beds. The beds are rotated about twice a year = depending on the season & crop. Within the rotation I include an = A-frame chicken pen with a house on one end that I set on top of a bed. = (It looks like 2 long screen doors leaning against one another, splayed = apart on the bottom to the width of the bed. One end is sealed with a = triangular piece of plywood, and the other end is 2 sheets of plywood, = leaning against each other, like the doors, to form a coop.) We keep a pair of Silkies in this since they are so small, and are very = excellent chicken tractors. (We have other chickens but they are = larger & really tear up a bed.) The silkies are rotated just as if they = were a crop. After the chickens are rotated off, then I let the bed sit = for 3 months so there isn't a possible problem with raw manure = contamination of the first crop planted. My beds get a regular rest for = about 9 months, once every 3-4 years. I am making 2 more=20 pens like this so I can rotate more beds with the chickens since I have = found this is a wonderful detriment to stubborn weeds! I do this more = for the fertilizer & weed control than resting the soil. I have found = since I am continually adding organic matter-mulch, compost, & manure, = resting the soil isn't something I have to worry about. I have a few = beds that have been in continuous production-10 months out of 12-for 7 = years now, and they do not appear to have suffered. =20 Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_001_002E_01BF38AA.188924A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Diana, in answer to your question about resting your soil, I garden = intensively using 4' wide beds.  The beds are rotated about twice a = year=20 depending on the season & crop.  Within the rotation I = include an=20 A-frame chicken pen with a house on one end that I set on = top of a=20 bed.  (It looks like 2 long screen doors leaning against one = another,=20 splayed apart on the bottom to the width of the bed.  One = end is=20 sealed with a triangular piece of plywood, and the other end is 2 = sheets of=20 plywood, leaning against each other, like the doors, to form a = coop.)
    We keep a pair of Silkies in this since they are so small, and are = very=20 excellent chicken tractors.   (We have other chickens but = they=20 are larger & really tear up a bed.)  The silkies are = rotated just=20 as if they were a crop.  After the chickens are rotated off, then I = let the=20 bed sit for 3 months so there isn't a possible problem with raw manure=20 contamination of the first crop planted.  My beds get a regular = rest for=20 about 9 months, once every 3-4 years.  I am making 2 more
    pens like this so I can rotate more beds with the chickens since I = have=20 found this is a wonderful detriment to stubborn weeds!  I do this = more for=20 the fertilizer & weed control than resting the soil.  I have = found=20 since I am continually adding organic matter-mulch, compost, & = manure,=20 resting the soil isn't something I have to worry about.  I have a = few beds=20 that have been in continuous production-10 months out of 12-for 7 years = now, and=20 they do not appear to have suffered. 
     
    Elizabeth Pike
     
     
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firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03551 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20520; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:12:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com ([12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20462 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:12:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.62] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A891239026C; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:11:45 -0500 Message-ID: <002301bf38d9$169e6040$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:12:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF38AF.2CAB0160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF38AF.2CAB0160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you all for your wonderful advice. I agree with your concern, = Lucy, with my lack of "market" gardening experience. That is why I = wanted to "pretend" this coming year. I know I have to be prepared for = the unexpected, especially since we live in a hurricane prone area (& = yes, my town was one of those flooded by Floyd), and have suffered = droughts the past 3 years during the critical growing months of May & = June. I grew up in a farming community, grandparents on both sides had = farms & market gardens, and I've gardened for 20 years now. I am well = aware that this is a dicey risk, but it's in my blood!! I can't not = grow food! (Aren't farmers eternal optimists?!)=20 The farm stands in my area do a brisk business, though we live in a = rural area & alot of folks have their own gardens. We live close enough = to larger towns with the right demographics-finding customers for = organic produce will not be a problem. And we are located on a major = highway, used by locals & tourists. I have spent 2 years visiting = farmer's markets & farm stands within a day's drive on Saturdays, = studying their set-ups, farms, customers, produce, & marketing = strategies. I've picked brains, discreetly, and made voluminous notes. = This year may have been my first year, but it never showed to my new = customers. I have business & marketing experience, so I knew what to = expect & how to handle myself from that angle. I guess my biggest fear, = is knowing that I have to produce a certain amount of produce, and then = having something happen such as the flood. Do y'all issue refunds, or = credit to be used the following year? We have a long growing season-March-December-does this affect the = price of shares? We basically have a spring/summer season & a fall = season. I'd like to sell shares to one or both seasons. I'd really = like to keep the price per share to $300-that seems to be the mental = cut-off point for alot of people, and I can't possibly offer 10 months = of food for that. What do y'all think? I love the idea of having the newspaper do a write-up. They always = have farming pics & articles for the city folks during March & April. = The one problem I have with the ones I see featured is the "amusement = park" atmosphere. There is one in my area-a Christmas tree farm which = didn't even exist 3 years ago. They spent megabucks, had a tree company = plant thousands of 5 year old trees, then opened shop selling trees, = hayrides, cider, etc. For fall, they truck in pumpkins, gourds, etc. = They grow nothing but the trees which are dyed green (to cover dead = needles-they don't do good here on the coast in our humid climate), and = sheared by machine. I understand farmers do what they must, and not = all farm day activities are so false & "touristy". I just want to keep = the focus on the food-fresh, pure, healthy. We can offer a = mini-petting zoo-we have goats, chickens, horses, and border collies. = And I have a large cut flower garden & herb garden, which I will include = in the CSA shares. What kinds of activities do y'all offer on pick up = days-if any? (And I am already working on recipe leaflets & seasonal = newsletter templates into which I will input current info. ) =20 Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF38AF.2CAB0160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        Thank you all for your wonderful advice.  I = agree=20 with your concern, Lucy, with my lack of "market" gardening=20 experience.    That is why I wanted to "pretend" this = coming=20 year.  I know I have to be prepared for the unexpected, especially = since we=20 live in a hurricane prone area (& yes, my town was one of = those flooded=20 by Floyd), and have suffered droughts the past 3 years during the = critical=20 growing months of May & June.   I grew up in a = farming=20 community, grandparents on both sides had farms & market gardens, = and I've=20 gardened for 20 years now.  I am well aware that this is a dicey = risk, but=20 it's in my blood!!  I can't not grow food! (Aren't farmers = eternal=20 optimists?!)
        The farm stands in my area do a brisk business, = though=20 we live in a rural area & alot of folks have their own=20 gardens.  We live close enough to larger towns with = the =20 right demographics-finding customers for organic produce will not be a=20 problem.  And we are located on a major highway, used by = locals &=20 tourists.  I have spent 2 years visiting farmer's markets & = farm stands=20 within a day's drive on Saturdays, studying their set-ups, farms,=20 customers, produce, & marketing strategies.  I've picked = brains,=20 discreetly, and made voluminous notes.  This year may have = been my=20 first year, but it never showed to my new customers.  I have = business &=20 marketing experience, so I knew what to expect & how to handle = myself from=20 that angle.  I guess my biggest fear, is knowing that I have to = produce a=20 certain amount of produce, and then having something happen such as the=20 flood.  Do y'all issue refunds, or credit to be used the following=20 year?
         We have a long growing = season-March-December-does=20 this affect the price of shares?  We basically have a spring/summer = season=20 & a fall season.  I'd like to sell shares to one or both=20 seasons.  I'd really like to keep the price per share to $300-that = seems to=20 be the mental cut-off point for alot of people, and I can't possibly = offer 10=20 months of food for that.  What do y'all think?
         I love the idea of having the newspaper do = a=20 write-up.  They always have farming pics & articles for the = city folks=20 during March & April.    The one problem I have with = the ones=20 I see featured is the "amusement park" atmosphere.  There is one in = my=20 area-a Christmas tree farm which didn't even exist 3 years ago.  = They spent=20 megabucks, had a tree company plant thousands of 5 year old trees, then = opened=20 shop selling trees, hayrides, cider, etc.  For fall, they truck in=20 pumpkins, gourds, etc.  They grow nothing but the trees which are = dyed=20 green (to cover dead needles-they don't do good here on the coast in our = humid=20 climate), and sheared by machine.   I understand farmers do = what they=20 must, and not all farm day activities are so false & = "touristy".  I=20 just want to keep the focus on the food-fresh, pure, = healthy.   We can=20 offer a mini-petting zoo-we have goats, chickens, horses, and border=20 collies.  And I have a large cut flower garden & herb = garden,=20 which I will include in the CSA shares.  What kinds of = activities do=20 y'all offer on pick up days-if any?  (And I am already working on = recipe=20 leaflets & seasonal newsletter templates into which I will input = current=20 info. )
        
    Elizabeth Pike
    pike@always-online.com
    ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF38AF.2CAB0160-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Nov 27 08:53:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03693 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA22263; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:52:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.rdc1.ne.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.ne.home.com [24.2.4.66]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22204 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 07:51:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from home.com ([24.3.229.121]) by mail.rdc1.ne.home.com (InterMail v4.01.01.00 201-229-111) with ESMTP id <19991127135147.PTQH10081.mail.rdc1.ne.home.com@home.com>; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 05:51:47 -0800 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Message-ID: <383FF08D.E5E020B5@home.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 08:54:06 -0600 From: Jay Woods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diana Chesterfield CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA References: <199911270624.WAA25852@wolfenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: jwoods X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 807 For me, it is the composting that rests the soil. Each soil bed has it's own compost pile. The pile covers about 1/4 of each bed. It is finished and spread over the bed every other year in the spring. In addition to recycling the non-food and non-cut flower materials from the nearby beds, there is considerable admixture of weeds and mowings of the paths as well as chipped materials from the perennial pruning and lumbering operations. It has been necessary to be careful about using leaf mould. There was a lead refinery nearby in years past. I am near city center with it's own deposits of lead, copper and cadmium . And the railroad provided coal clinker for road metal and carrying a large burden of heavy metals. Each of these are reasons to expect to find heavy metals in the leaves. Because many annual crops (especially brassicas) translocate metals to the edible parts, the leaf mould is reserved for perennials (other than asparagus) and for flower beds (the metals can actually intensify the colors esp. blue). The leaves are also the storage area for toxic organics. Which toxins are stored is highly specific to each genus of tree. The black walnut leaves can give you a very nasty surprise by killing off new plantings and others can also to a lesser extent. ---Jay Diana Chesterfield wrote: > Just out of curiosity, does anyone rest their soil every 7th year, or do > folks continue planting year after year in the same soil? What strategies > or principals do folks use for soil rejuvenation? Also, I'd like to hear > at what timeline farmers pick their produce? Do you wait until it is > completely ripe or at what stage? Thanks, > > Diana From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 01:59:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA12739 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA12741; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:58:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.rivnet.net (mail.rivnet.net [205.130.32.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21408 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:40:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from rivnet.net (unverified [205.130.32.200]) by mail.rivnet.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:43:46 -0500 Message-ID: <38405F4F.BA5E59EC@rivnet.net> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:46:39 -0500 From: Ann Cooper X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-L@prairienet.org Subject: packaging for produce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 Hi from Virginia. This will be our first year with a CSA. We would appreciate any information you may have on how you package your produce -- and where you get your packaging materials from. Thanks for your help Ann & John Cooper -- Growerivu@rivnet.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 02:03:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA12794 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 02:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA13088; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 01:02:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.72]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28491 for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 19:30:42 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id d.0.e44d0400 (4009) for ; Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:30:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.e44d0400.2571df9e@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 20:30:06 EST Subject: Re:CSA: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 809 Elizabeth asked the question, "Do y'all issue refunds, or credit to be used the following year?" Well, for me the underlying principle of having a CSA is for the consumer to accept and share the risks associated with farming. No refunds or credits. I continue to work the 14 hour days during drought, cool temperatures and extended rains. I still have to maintain the machinery, feed the soils, care for the animals etc. What I have found is that our subscribers pay much more attention to weather patterns. They know that there will be good years and bad years. Like Lucy said, Its not about cheep organic food. CSA is about local food. Becoming a part of the landscape where you live and nourishing your body through its bounty. It is a commitment thing. It is good to be involved. But commitment requires a willingness to sacrifice if need be. CSA is a committed agricultural arrangement. This morning I enjoyed a bacon and egg breakfast. My chickens were involved. But my pig was committed. We charge $500 for a 25 week season. Its important to grow enough volume and diversity so subscribers leave with a grocery bag full each week. It costs $25 to $35 per bag when I shop at the grocery. So there is some parity here. We do fallow 1\7th of our beds every year. Plant successive cover crops all year long in a rotation. Soil tests have proved the wisdom of this practice. I compost and use chicken tractors as well. But a jubilee is a jubilee and my soils need them. Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 16:55:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19445 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19161; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:54:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from turbo.turboweb.net.au ([202.74.128.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA20683 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 04:43:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from ppp079.dungog.turboweb.net.au (ppp079.dungog.turboweb.net.au [202.74.133.79]) by turbo.turboweb.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA23638 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:37:23 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:37:23 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19991128214222.2fafde94@mail.turboweb.net.au> X-Sender: jevg@mail.turboweb.net.au (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Ellis & Veronika Gudenus Subject: CSA in Australia Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 810 Dear All, we have been reading recently on the list and have unjoyed the enthusiasm. we have also just read "Farms of Tomorrow revisited" and are very interested along with a couple of other freinds and some people in the local Biodynamic/anthroposophic groups who may have some "start up" money available for a CSA especially if it is seen to embrace some social change. there are no CSA to my knowledge) in this part of New South Wales Australia, Hunter Valley near Newcastle on the east coast 175km (100 miles) north of Sydney. We have a nearly subtropical climate (33 degrees south)so we can harvest some crops all year round. We do not have a farm nor are we trained or practiced horticulturalists or market gardeners but we do have a candidate farm which is currently a Herford breeder but the soil is being fairly well looked after ( only fertiliser is mineral rock) but the cattle are not organic or BD yet however the owner is sympathetic and does not want to see the property sub didvided for residential blocks ( its greatest current value in $ terms) Does any one know of any CSA's in Australia we could contact or visist? What might be the best use of the start up money say us$500? Any tips BD tips for low copper and selenium in soil affecting performance above cattle? ( we have not used any 500 or other preps or barrel compost yet either) is there perhaps a better resource or list we could contact? best wishes to you all and thank you for your responses in advance. John Ellis, Veronika Gudenus and Simon Ellis Manyellaluk, 136 Parsons Road, Clarence Town NSW 2321 Australia (61) 02 49964560 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 16:59:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19477 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA19433; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 15:58:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA28742 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:50:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199911281450.IAA28742@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 30373695; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 14:49:53 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "CSA List" Subject: Starting a Core Group Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:06:02 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 We are looking at the possibility of starting a core group for our farmer-owned and operated CSA. After 6 years of operation we feel that we finally have a number of solidly committed members who also may have the time for and interest in taking on some planning tasks and contributing ideas and guidance to the farm operation. We are also interested in publishing an article on the subject in the "Community Farm" newsletter. SO we would be interested in hearing from folks who have been through the process. If anyone out there is interested in writing more "formally" we can discuss publishing your article in the newsletter. Questions we have include (but probably are not limited to): Where and how to start. What are some advantages and/or disadvantages of forming a core group? What kinds of things will a core group (in a farmer-owned setting) be valuable for? Or not? What problems came up with your core group that you never would have anticipated? What benefits arose that you never expected? How much control do/should you give to a core group? Thanks for your time Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 17:04:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19597 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 17:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA19742; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 16:02:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com ([12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA28896 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 08:54:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.38] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A1EC1E401EE; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:53:32 -0500 Message-ID: <001301bf39b0$7ce25be0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 09:54:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF3986.9353B240" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 812 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF3986.9353B240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Well, for me the underlying principle of having a CSA is for the=20 consumer to accept and share the risks associated with farming. No = refunds=20 or credits. I continue to work the 14 hour days during drought, cool=20 temperatures and extended rains. I still have to maintain the = machinery,=20 feed the soils, care for the animals etc. "-Art=20 =20 Duh-what was I thinking?? That's the whole idea behind CSA's. = What an insult for me to suggest giving back income--umgh, shgh, um = (sound of me eating crow!). Still learning, Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF3986.9353B240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
         "Well, for me the underlying principle of = having a=20 CSA is for the 
    consumer to accept and share the risks = associated with=20 farming.  No refunds 
    or credits.  I continue to work = the 14=20 hour days during drought, cool 
    temperatures and extended = rains.  I=20 still have to maintain the machinery, 
    feed the soils, care for = the=20 animals etc. "-Art
        
         Duh-what was I thinking??  That's the = whole=20 idea behind CSA's.  What an insult for me to suggest giving back=20 income--umgh, shgh, um (sound of me eating crow!).
     
    Still learning,
    Elizabeth Pike
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF3986.9353B240-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Nov 28 22:32:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA22691 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 22:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA07542; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 21:31:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com ([12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29443 for ; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 19:09:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.167] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A2192F701E4; Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:08:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01bf3a06$6df74680$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: References: <943818496.18108.70@excite.com> Subject: Re: Refunds etc.... Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1999 20:09:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 From Lucy: > You have your share price way too low for a 10 month season (40 > weeks$300=$7.50 per week per share-that's giving food away). Since my growing season is long, the $300 would be for 1 season-spring/early summer or late summer/fall, with a possibility of offering both for $550. Thanks for your input! Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 29 08:07:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27698 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09725; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:06:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09639 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:05:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from batty.excite.com ([199.172.152.107]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991129130202.TAUS19682.kuku.excite.com@batty.excite.com>; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:02:02 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: sandehill@juno.com, pastpat@thepoint.net, blakey@infocom.com, sbonney@iquest.net, amrmeb@ime.net, jana@mountainmax.net, anneb@angelfire.com, savage@alltel.net Cc: doodles@netins.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, cen32750@centuryinter.net, wbgeorge@ibm.net, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, wellingh@earlham.edu, JCHodgson@aol.com, JRicha1840@aol.com Message-Id: <943880522.5938.322@excite.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 05:02:02 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.88.185 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 814 > ================================ > >From List: Biotech Activists (biotech_activists@iatp.org) > Date Posted: 11/26/1999 > Posted by: mritchie@iatp.org > ================================ > > WARNING LABELS NEEDED ON GM FOODS > November 24, 1999 > Toronto Star (op-ed) > David Suzuki, described as a nationally known geneticist and host of the TV > program, The Nature of Things, writes in this op-ed piece that, I am a > geneticist by training. Today, while I am no longer active as a researcher, > I follow genetics, including the debate over genetically modified food. > Advances in genetic insights and technological manipulative abilities have > been breathtaking. So the excitement surrounding genetics is > understandable, but that's all the more reason to reflect deeply before > rushing to apply it. > When I graduated as a geneticist in 1961, we knew about DNA, genes, > chromosomes and genetic regulation. But today when I tell students what our > hot ideas were in '61, they choke with laughter. > At the cutting edge of scientific research, most of our ideas are far from > the mark - wrong, in need of revision or irrelevant. That's not a > derogation of science; it's the way science advances. We take a set of > observations or data, set up a hypothesis that makes sense of them and then > we test the hypothesis. The new insights and techniques we gain from this > process are interpreted tentatively and liable to change, so any rush to > apply them strikes me as downright dangerous. > No group of experts should be more aware of the hazards of unwarranted > claims than geneticists. After all, it was the exuberance of geneticists > early in this century that led to the creation of a discipline called > eugenics, which aimed to improve the quality of humanity's genes. These > scientists were every bit as clever, competent and well-meaning as today's > genetic engineers but they got carried away with their discoveries. > Outlandish claims were made by eminent geneticists about the hereditary > nature of traits such as drunkenness, nomadism, and criminality, as well as > those judged "inferior" or "superior." Those claims provided scientific > respectability to legislation in the United States prohibiting interracial > marriage. In Nazi Germany, Josef Mengele was a geneticist who held > peer-reviewed research grants for his work at Auschwitz. The grand claims > of geneticists led to the race purification laws and Holocaust. > Today, the leading-edge of genetics is in the field of biotechnology. The > basis of this new area is the ability to take DNA (genetic material) from > one organism and insert it into a different species. Human beings can't > normally exchange genes with a carrot or a mouse, but with DNA technology > scientists can make it happen. > But we have learned there are always costs. We only have to reflect on DDT, > nuclear power and CFCs, which were hailed as wonderful creations but whose > long-term detrimental effects were only found decades after their widespread > use. > Now, with a more wise and balanced perspective, we are cutting back on the > use of these technologies. But with GM foods, this option may not be > available. The difference with genetically modified food is that once the > genie is out of the bottle, it will be very difficult or impossible to stuff > it back. If we stop using DDT and CFCs, nature may be able to undo most of > the damage - even nuclear waste decays over time. But GM plants are living > organisms. Once these new life forms have become established in our > surroundings, they can replicate, change and spread, so there may be no > turning back. Many ecologists are concerned about what this means to the > balance of life on Earth. > Ergo, we should apply the precautionary principle with any new technology, > asking whether it is needed and then demanding proof it is not harmful. > Nowhere is this more important than in biotechnology because it enables us > to tamper with the blueprint of life. > We will only be able to say definitively that transgenic foods are or are > not harmful to our health or the environment after they have been consumed > by thousands of people over long periods, and have been out in open fields > for many years. > With the widespread growth of genetically modified organisms (GMOs), we have > become part of a massive experiment. > I would have preferred far more experimentation under controlled lab > conditions before their release into the open, but it's too late. > Since GMOs are now in our food supply, we have become experimental subjects > without any choice. That means, at the very least, food should be labelled > if it contains GMOs so we can make our own choice. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 29 10:37:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00389 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22752; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:36:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22244 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:29:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2d-160.ix.netcom.com [209.110.255.160]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA12250; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:29:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00d901bf3a97$9edcb3c0$dcf96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , "John Ellis & Veronika Gudenus" References: <1.5.4.16.19991128214222.2fafde94@mail.turboweb.net.au> Subject: Re: CSA in Australia Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:29:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 815 Hi folks in Australia, If the farm owners agrees to let you use his farm good. I would suggest a basic organic gardening book to get you started in soil prep.and growing the favorite veggies of your local population. Question are there farmers' markets in your area? I ask because I think it would be good to get some growing knowledge under your belt before asking customers to pay up front. Work and learn and truck your veggies to a farmers market to sell. If stuff grows well great if it fails you will only dissappoint your "loyal following" at the market garden but you won't have let CSA members down. Gardening for "real" is way more work than gardening for hobby. Did anyone here go from non-gardener to market gardener"overnight"? While I think you should get started I think you should as they say crawl before you walk. Start somewhat small and "grow" pun intended. Good good luck Beth in Massachusetts. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Ellis & Veronika Gudenus To: Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 2:37 AM Subject: CSA in Australia > Dear All, > we have been reading recently on the list and have unjoyed the enthusiasm. > we have also just read "Farms of Tomorrow revisited" and are very interested > along with a couple of other freinds and some people in the local > Biodynamic/anthroposophic groups who may have some "start up" money > available for a CSA especially if it is seen to embrace some social change. > there are no CSA to my knowledge) in this part of New South Wales Australia, > Hunter Valley near Newcastle on the east coast 175km (100 miles) north of > Sydney. > We have a nearly subtropical climate (33 degrees south)so we can harvest > some crops all year round. > We do not have a farm nor are we trained or practiced horticulturalists or > market gardeners but we do have a candidate farm which is currently a > Herford breeder but the soil is being fairly well looked after ( only > fertiliser is mineral rock) but the cattle are not organic or BD yet however > the owner is sympathetic and does not want to see the property sub didvided > for residential blocks ( its greatest current value in $ terms) > Does any one know of any CSA's in Australia we could contact or visist? > What might be the best use of the start up money say us$500? > Any tips BD tips for low copper and selenium in soil affecting performance > above cattle? ( we have not used any 500 or other preps or barrel compost > yet either) is there perhaps a better resource or list we could contact? > best wishes to you all and thank you for your responses in advance. > John Ellis, Veronika Gudenus and Simon Ellis > Manyellaluk, 136 Parsons Road, Clarence Town NSW 2321 Australia > (61) 02 49964560 > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 29 10:53:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00727 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24249; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:52:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23895 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:48:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2d-160.ix.netcom.com [209.110.255.160]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11678; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00e301bf3a99$9ec9dd20$dcf96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Elizabeth Pike" , References: <001301bf39b0$7ce25be0$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:43:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BF3A56.8D2D06C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 816 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BF3A56.8D2D06C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually Elizabeth we have discussed this before on the list and I would = say the consensus was little failures (in crops) are usually made up but = some crops producing above and beyond. So for the most part it balances = out and most members realize that is what a real garden is about. = However we went on to discuss what about a dismal year when total = quantity was not good. One woman on this list said she baked a loaf of = bread for each member each week for a few weeks to fill in the gaps. = She went on to say that this pleased members so well they hoped that she = would continue the following year :). Well no the following year things = grew well. Others I believe mentioned they got stuff from area farms to = fill in the baskets. No one thank goodness had a total crop failure but = we already agreed that on our farm we would probably refund the money, = yes CSA is supposed to be a concept but realistically for many its still = just an alternative buying method, and as such we felt we needed a = reputation of good products to stay in business. I have read in the = various books and I think on this list that some farmers asked their = members: look its a bad year "what should we do" most said the members = agreed to let the farmer keep the money and they would accept what ever = was produced AND realized this would keep the farmer in business so that = the CSA would be there another year. This attitude probably increases as = the years go on or if you have a really strong core group (we have none, = that was someone else's good question). Soooooo once again no set answer = each farmer does what they think is best. Beth ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Elizabeth Pike=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 6:54 AM "Well, for me the underlying principle of having a CSA is for the = consumer to accept and share the risks associated with farming. No = refunds=20 or credits. I continue to work the 14 hour days during drought, cool=20 temperatures and extended rains. I still have to maintain the = machinery,=20 feed the soils, care for the animals etc. "-Art=20 =20 Duh-what was I thinking?? That's the whole idea behind CSA's. = What an insult for me to suggest giving back income--umgh, shgh, um = (sound of me eating crow!). Still learning, Elizabeth Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BF3A56.8D2D06C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Actually Elizabeth we have discussed = this before on=20 the list and I would say the consensus was little failures (in crops) = are=20 usually made up but some crops producing above and beyond.  So for = the most=20 part it balances out and most members realize that is what a real garden = is=20 about.  However we went on to discuss what about a dismal year when = total=20 quantity was not good.  One woman on this list said she baked a = loaf of=20 bread for each member each week for a few weeks to fill in the = gaps.  She=20 went on to say that this pleased members so well they hoped that she = would=20 continue the following year :).  Well no the following year = things=20 grew well. Others I believe mentioned they got stuff from area = farms to=20 fill in the baskets.  No one thank goodness had a total crop = failure but we=20 already agreed that on our farm we would probably refund the money, yes = CSA is=20 supposed to be a concept but realistically for many its still just an=20 alternative buying method, and as such we felt we needed a = reputation of=20 good products to stay in business.    I have read in the = various books=20 and I think on this list that some farmers asked their members: = look its a=20 bad year "what should we do" most said the members agreed to let the = farmer keep=20 the money and they would accept what ever was produced AND realized = this=20 would keep the farmer in business so that the CSA would be there another = year.=20 This attitude probably increases as the years go on or if you have a = really=20 strong core group (we have none, that was someone else's good question). = Soooooo=20 once again no set answer each farmer does what they think is best.  = Beth
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Elizabeth=20 Pike
    Sent: Sunday, November 28, 1999 = 6:54=20 AM

         "Well, for me the underlying principle = of having=20 a CSA is for the 
    consumer to accept and share the risks = associated=20 with farming.  No refunds 
    or credits.  I continue = to work=20 the 14 hour days during drought, cool 
    temperatures and = extended=20 rains.  I still have to maintain the machinery, 
    feed the = soils,=20 care for the animals etc. "-Art
        
         Duh-what was I thinking??  That's = the whole=20 idea behind CSA's.  What an insult for me to suggest giving back=20 income--umgh, shgh, um (sound of me eating crow!).
     
    Still learning,
    Elizabeth Pike
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BF3A56.8D2D06C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 29 14:17:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05859 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12561; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:16:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12473 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:15:56 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id k.0.2ddba2a0 (4563); Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.2ddba2a0.25742ac1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:15:13 EST Subject: Re: Starting a Core Group To: fsfarm@mufn.org, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 Dear Jim and Jo, I am the core group coordinator for a CSA that is part of Porter Farms, an organic farm with over 500 acres in tillage. The CSA (About 185 member families) has just completed its 4 th year and has a core group of about 9-10 people. Things the core group people do: 1. Our farm is 45 minutes from the two urban/suburban (Rochester and Buffalo NY) areas we serve and so one thing that core group people do is to take a list (generated by me) which tells them who is in their geographic area. Before the CSA starts, they invite all those people to the distribution site for their group (cometimes, but not always their home) and talk about the CSA, then sign people up for the 22 Saturdays of the season. Each person goes out to the farm on their Saturday and picks up for all the people in the group, delivering it to the distribution site by a set time. 2. The core group people poll the people they serve in their area once or twice a year and ask them about how it's going. The feedback goes to the farme r. 3. The core group people can run a phone tree if necessary. 4. The WEdnesday before your pick up Saturday you get a reminder phone call from your core group person. 5. The core group meets several times a season and sorts out various jobs; marketing, seeking new markets, articles for the newsletter, festival organization ( we have one festival in the fall where all members come out for free pumpkins and gourds) 6. Core group people can answer some questions 7. This year we will have a brainstorming session WITHOUT the farmer present (but with his blessing) to do some creative thinking about marketing the CSA. Buffalo has its roots deep in a beef on weck and chicken wings (wings were invented here) and beer culture. This is coupled with a long standing supermarket feud that has led to two supermarketchain that are fancier than any I've seen-- even in Seattle or San Francisco! The combination makes it hard for people to understand why seasonal is good (strawberries and blueberries are available year round, though most of the year they have passports in order to get in :-)) and also why organic and local is important. 8. The core group people DO NOT find subs for those unable to go out to the farm ( each member gets a list from their core group person of all the people in their distribution group. Hope that helps... Cheers, Sue Tannehill Porter Farms CSA Elba NY From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Nov 29 15:56:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07718 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA22601; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:55:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22501 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:54:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1d-146.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.146]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20250 for ; Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:54:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <01c501bf3ac5$0928cb60$dcf96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: References: <0.2ddba2a0.25742ac1@aol.com> Subject: Re: Starting a Core Group Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 15:54:08 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 Wow, do the core group members get their veggies free or a reduced price? How did the farmer recruit you? We've only been going for 2 years but I'd be hard pressed to think of members who would work that hard and more importantly consistently. Thanks Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Starting a Core Group > Dear Jim and Jo, > I am the core group coordinator for a CSA that is part of Porter Farms, > an organic farm with over 500 acres in tillage. > The CSA (About 185 member families) has just completed its 4 th year and has > a core group of about 9-10 people. > Things the core group people do: > 1. Our farm is 45 minutes from the two urban/suburban (Rochester and Buffalo > NY) areas we serve and so one thing that core group people do is to take a > list (generated by me) which tells them who is in their geographic area. > Before the CSA starts, they invite all those people to the distribution site > for their group (cometimes, but not always their home) and talk about the > CSA, then sign people up for the 22 Saturdays of the season. Each person goes > out to the farm on their Saturday and picks up for all the people in the > group, delivering it to the distribution site by a set time. > 2. The core group people poll the people they serve in their area once or > twice a year and ask them about how it's going. The feedback goes to the farme > r. > 3. The core group people can run a phone tree if necessary. > 4. The WEdnesday before your pick up Saturday you get a reminder phone call > from your core group person. > 5. The core group meets several times a season and sorts out various jobs; > marketing, seeking new markets, articles for the newsletter, festival > organization ( we have one festival in the fall where all members come out > for free pumpkins and gourds) > 6. Core group people can answer some questions > 7. This year we will have a brainstorming session WITHOUT the farmer present > (but with his blessing) to do some creative thinking about marketing the CSA. > Buffalo has its roots deep in a beef on weck and chicken wings (wings were > invented here) and beer culture. This is coupled with a long standing > supermarket feud that has led to two supermarketchain that are fancier than > any I've seen-- even in Seattle or San Francisco! The combination makes it > hard for people to understand why seasonal is good (strawberries and > blueberries are available year round, though most of the year they have > passports in order to get in :-)) and also why organic and local is important. > 8. The core group people DO NOT find subs for those unable to go out to the > farm ( each member gets a list from their core group person of all the people > in their distribution group. > Hope that helps... > Cheers, > Sue Tannehill > Porter Farms CSA > Elba NY > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 30 06:51:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18560 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA24554; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 05:49:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22425 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 04:59:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from flash.excite.com ([199.172.152.79]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991130105759.GEUP6196.gigi.excite.com@flash.excite.com>; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:57:59 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: sandehill@juno.com, coltom@dcr.net, nallen@acadia.net, pastpat@thepoint.net, ftlbeach@netrox.net, davbath@aol.com, MBlackb201@aol.com, blakey@infocom.com Cc: sbonney@iquest.net, amrmeb@ime.net, jana@mountainmax.net, anneb@angelfire.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, Leslie_Dickson@law.state.ak.us, cen32750@centuryinter.net Message-Id: <943959479.3115.607@excite.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:57:59 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 819 *Please Distribute Widely* EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ALLIANCE FOR BIO-INTEGRITY TO CHALLENGE U.S. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION (FDA) OFFICIALS AT NOVEMBER 30TH MEETING ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS IN WASHINGTON, D.C. WILL CONFRONT AGENCY WITH EVIDENCE IT COVERED-UP MEMORANDA FROM FDA EXPERTS WARNING ABOUT UNIQUE HEALTH RISKS OF BIOTECH FOODS PHOTOCOPIES OF THESE INTERNAL FDA DOCUMENTS NOW PUBLISHED ON ALLIANCE'S WEBSITE: http://www.biointegrity.org [C-Span Cable Television will broadcast live during some or all of the hearing] FDA Commissioner Dr. Jane Henney and her top officials will receive strong criticism of the agencys policy on genetically engineered foods from a public interest attorney at the open meeting to be held by the agency in Washington, D.C. on November 30. Steven M. Druker, executive director of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity, will fault the FDA for ignoring scientifically justified safety concerns in approving genetically engineered foods. He has been invited to present his views as a member of the panel on Scientific, Safety, and Regulatory Issues. His criticisms will be aired on the day the World Trade Organization conference starts in Seattle, with the U.S. delegation insisting that FDA policy on genetically engineered foods is science-based and that widespread concerns in Europe and Asia are unscientific and irrational. Mr. Druker will specifically critique the FDA for turning its back to repeated warnings from its own scientists about the unique risks of genetically engineered foods and for then proclaiming itself "...not aware of any information showing that foods derived by these new methods differ from other foods in any meaningful or uniform way." These warnings recently came to light when the FDA was required to disclose its internal files during the course of a lawsuit headed by Drukers organization, Alliance for Bio-Integrity, et al. v. Shalala et al. The suit, which is pending in U.S. District Court in Washington, D.C., demands that the FDA institute mandatory safety testing and labeling of all genetically engineered foods. Mr. Druker organized an unprecedented coalition of eminent scientists and religious leaders to stand as plaintiffs, and he is also serving as one of the attorneys. After Druker and co-panelists have made their statements, Commissioner Henney and other FDA officials will have an opportunity to dialogue with them. The panel discussion will occur during the morning session, which runs from 10:00 A.M. until 1 P.M at the Cohen Auditorium in the Wilbur J. Cohen Building, 330 Independence Ave S.W., Washington, D.C. Note: Exact copies of several FDA documents expressing concern about risks of bioengineered foods are now on the Alliance for Bio-Integrity website: http://www.biointegrity.org Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 30 13:30:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA24651 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27533; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:28:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (f87.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.87]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27408 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:26:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 73919 invoked by uid 0); 30 Nov 1999 18:26:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19991130182625.73918.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.244.92.22 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:26:25 PST X-Originating-IP: [204.244.92.22] From: "Lovena Harvey" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: New Agric. Food Policy in B.C. Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:26:25 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 820 Hello all and thanks Lucy for the great information you have been sending regarding GE foods. I am in the process of writing a submission to the B.C. Legislature on food security, food safety and food sustainability. A new agriculture food policy is being created in B.C. (Canada, for the Americans) and they have requested submisssions from farmers, consumers, processors etc.. This is a perfect opportunity for us B.C folk to indicate our aversion to GE foods and the current trend of non-labelling of these products. Anyone out there and especially those living and making a living from food in B.C should write, even a short submission to the Clerk of Committees. The email is ClerkComm@leg.bc.ca. The web site is www.legis.gov.bc.ca/cmt. The toll free phone number is 1-877-428-8337. Now is our opportunity to speak out; let the voice of organic farmers and eaters be heard. Also, I am a new CSA farmer, having been a market gardener for 2 years. I am eagerly approaching our first CSA year and enjoying the wisdom of so many of you on this list. Thanks! Lovena >From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" >To: sandehill@juno.com, coltom@dcr.net, nallen@acadia.net, >pastpat@thepoint.net, ftlbeach@netrox.net, davbath@aol.com, >MBlackb201@aol.com, blakey@infocom.com >CC: sbonney@iquest.net, amrmeb@ime.net, jana@mountainmax.net, >anneb@angelfire.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, >Leslie_Dickson@law.state.ak.us, cen32750@centuryinter.net >Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:57:59 PST > >*Please Distribute Widely* > > EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF ALLIANCE FOR BIO-INTEGRITY TO > CHALLENGE U.S. FOOD & DRUG ADMINISTRATION (FDA) > OFFICIALS AT > NOVEMBER 30TH MEETING ON GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS > IN > WASHINGTON, D.C. > > WILL CONFRONT AGENCY WITH EVIDENCE IT COVERED-UP > MEMORANDA > FROM FDA EXPERTS WARNING ABOUT UNIQUE HEALTH RISKS OF > BIOTECH FOODS > > PHOTOCOPIES OF THESE INTERNAL FDA DOCUMENTS NOW > PUBLISHED ON > ALLIANCE'S WEBSITE: http://www.biointegrity.org > > [C-Span Cable Television will broadcast live during > some or > all of the hearing] > > FDA Commissioner Dr. Jane Henney and her top officials > will > receive strong criticism of the agencys policy on > genetically engineered foods from a public interest > attorney > at the open meeting to be held by the agency in > Washington, > D.C. on November 30. Steven M. Druker, executive > director > of the Alliance for Bio-Integrity, will fault the FDA > for > ignoring scientifically justified safety concerns in > approving genetically engineered foods. > > He has been invited to present his views as a member of > the > panel on Scientific, Safety, and Regulatory Issues. > > His criticisms will be aired on the day the World Trade > Organization conference starts in Seattle, with the > U.S. > delegation insisting that FDA policy on genetically > engineered foods is science-based and that widespread > concerns in Europe and Asia are unscientific and > irrational. > > Mr. Druker will specifically critique the FDA for > turning > its back to repeated warnings from its own scientists > about > the unique risks of genetically engineered foods and > for > then proclaiming itself "...not aware of any > information > showing that foods derived by these new methods differ > from > other foods in any meaningful or uniform way." > > These warnings recently came to light when the FDA was > required to disclose its internal files during the > course of > a lawsuit headed by Drukers organization, Alliance > for > Bio-Integrity, et al. v. Shalala et al. > > The suit, which is pending in U.S. District Court in > Washington, D.C., demands that the FDA institute > mandatory > safety testing and labeling of all genetically > engineered > foods. Mr. Druker organized an unprecedented coalition > of > eminent scientists and religious leaders to stand as > plaintiffs, and he is also serving as one of the > attorneys. > > After Druker and co-panelists have made their > statements, > Commissioner Henney and other FDA officials will have > an > opportunity to dialogue with them. > > The panel discussion will occur during the morning > session, > which runs from 10:00 A.M. until 1 P.M at the Cohen > Auditorium in the Wilbur J. Cohen Building, 330 > Independence > Ave S.W., Washington, D.C. > > Note: Exact copies of several FDA documents expressing > concern about risks of bioengineered foods are now on > the > Alliance for Bio-Integrity website: > http://www.biointegrity.org > > > > > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: >http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 >Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > >________________________________________________________________ >Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com >Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Nov 30 16:13:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27694 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA12724; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:12:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12626 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:11:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.104]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA429 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:11:49 -0500 Message-ID: <008901bf3b79$0ff41800$68c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: from none to market Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:22:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 hi all we actually went from computers to farm market . we bought the farm, moved fromthe city, cleared snow in spring, planted way too much-we were lucky with growth- & went to market cause our friends refused to take free stuff from us. CSA folks must remember-especially new starters-your product is only worth what you charge for it. It was for our own good that our friends did not take our produce-one even said if she took it for free that she would expect to have it free again next year! honest at least. Our csa is for restaurant members-a twist to be able to sell at a higher single cost & grow exotics. I think that the grower must be ready to grow a few years in order to know what he/she is doing-the market is scary & unnerving if you have to take things home or sell them for nothing because-like us-you just did not know any better. thanks for letting me babble. zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 1 02:43:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA06381 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 02:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA01196; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 01:43:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12901 for ; Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:26:16 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id u.0.d4edd353 (3699); Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:25:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.d4edd353.2575ef25@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:25:25 EST Subject: Re: Starting a Core Group To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 Dear Beth, The farmer didn't recruit me, I volunteered. He gives me a full share free (440.00) and the other core group people get $100.00 off the price of a share (some do halves and some do whole shares so that's why he does it that way. I don't have a good explanation as to why we work that hard. Truthfully, it doesn't seem like that much to do to support a local economy issue that I believe in wholeheartedly. I love the idea... the win-win of the whole CSA idea and so do some others. Perhaps we just got lucky. Also, the previous CSA had a work component and it eventually folded because the farmers got worn out. After several (maybe 5??) years, they still couldn't make it pay for itself and the work requirement, a necessity on their farm never seemed to get ironed out. Workers wouldn't show up, etc. The core group people don't really do much for their $100.00 deduction. A meeting, a phone call a week, one project they help with (the festival OR the newsletter OR marketing, etc) I'm sure that they make more than $10.00 an hour when all is said and done. I don't make that much, but I see what I do as part of my attempt at serving. Does that help? Cheers, Sue From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 1 13:52:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20419 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02881; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 12:52:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from isns1.shasta.com (isns1.shasta.com [207.16.64.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22428 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:06:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from trinitycounty.org ([63.64.195.131]) by isns1.shasta.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23239 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 09:05:00 -0800 Received: from trinitycounty-Message_Server by trinitycounty.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:02:21 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 09:01:32 -0800 From: "Lisa Preschel-Quinn" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: test Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 823 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 1 19:26:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29725 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 19:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA06182; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:26:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05459 for ; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:22:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from almond.excite.com ([198.3.99.227]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991201191759.YUJO6196.gigi.excite.com@almond.excite.com>; Wed, 1 Dec 1999 11:17:59 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: blakey@infocom.com, amrmeb@ime.net, doodles@netins.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, JRicha1840@aol.com, larsoch@earlham.edu, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com Cc: kdlockwo@seidata.com, martins@tusco.net, mckinsdr@muohio.edu, jpq@mail.csuchico.edu, charliep@infocom.com, Rossauction@juno.com, bigriver@compuserve.com, sheltel@earlham.edu Subject: The Genetically Engineered Food Right to Know Act Message-Id: <944075879.720.991@excite.com> Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:17:59 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.68 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 824 PLEASE SPREAD FAR AND WIDE >(from Laurel Hopwood, Sierra Club Biotechnology Task Force Chair) > > The Genetically Engineered Food Right to Know Act, HR 3377, was introduced >11/17/99 by Dennis Kucinich, (Dem, OH). > >CO-SPONSORS ARE NEEDED!!! Please contact your reps!! > >Members of Congress that have cosponsored the Genetically Engineered Food >Right to Know Act. >1. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) >2. Jack Metcalf (R-WA) >3. David Bonior (D-MI) >4. Maxine Waters (D-CA) >5. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) >6. Barbara Lee (D-CA) >7. Bernard Sanders (I-VT) >8. Christopher Smith (R-NJ) >9. Michael Doyle (D-PA) >10. William Lipinski (D-IL) >11. Sherrod Brown (D-OH) >12. Maurice Hinchey (D-NY) >13. Janice Schakowsky (D-IL) >14. Eleanor Holmes Norton (D-DC) >15. Fortney Pete Stark (D-CA) >16. Lynn Woosley (D-CA) >17. Patsy Mink (D-HI) >18. Mathew Martinez (D-CA) >19. Jim McDermott (D-WA) >20. Lynn Rivers (D-MI) >21. Carolyn Maloney ( D-NY) > >A MINOR SETBACK: >Two Republican co-sponsors backed off because of political pressure. >If you have Dan Burton (IN-6th) or Benjamin Gilman (NY-20th) as your House >Representative, please contact Cameron Griffith, Consumer Choice Council, >to discuss strategy for recapturing the support of >these two Congressman. > >Form letters personalized for all 100 Senators and all 435 House >Representatives >http://www.thecampaign.org/congress.htm > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 2 14:39:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17243 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06375; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:38:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from kuku.excite.com (kuku-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06098 for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:36:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from mystic.excite.com ([199.172.152.98]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991202193506.MEIS6196.gigi.excite.com@mystic.excite.com> for ; Thu, 2 Dec 1999 11:35:06 -0800 From: "Teresa%2B Kohut" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: CSA listings Message-Id: <944163306.11395.424@excite.com> Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:35:06 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.115.63.18 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 825 I am searching for areas to list our CSA school and was interested in any helpful suggestions. It is non-profit, residential program. thank you Teresa Kohut Spirit Ranch Jacksonville, OR ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 10:01:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25845 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23725; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 09:00:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA23595 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:59:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from erin.excite.com ([198.3.99.254]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <19991204145843.GTCA19682.kuku.excite.com@erin.excite.com>; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 06:58:43 -0800 From: "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" To: GMO-L@cornell.edu, pastpat@thepoint.net, amrmeb@ime.net, jana@mountainmax.net, anneb@angelfire.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, Leslie_Dickson@law.state.ak.us, Pdflick@aol.com, alex1house@aol.com Cc: wbgeorge@ibm.net, Goland@cc.denison.edu, DBowman856@aol.com, nancyg@rcs.k12.in.us, wellingh@earlham.edu, MillerAJ@MUOhio.Edu, JRicha1840@aol.com, uez@globalsite.net Subject: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Message-Id: <944319522.4628.483@excite.com> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 06:58:42 PST X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.99 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 826 On Sat, 04 Dec 1999 14:34:57 +1300, Ivan Stevens wrote: > >Delivered-To: ivanys@i.pop.ihug.co.nz > >Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 20:59:00 +1300 > >X-Sender: cafca@mail.chch.planet.org.nz > >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 > >To: taking-control@converge.org.nz > >From: campaign against foreign control of aotearoa g.nz> > >Subject: [Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by vesta.plain.co.nz > id UAA30825 > >Reply-To: taking-control@converge.org.nz > >Sender: taking-control-admin@converge.org.nz > >X-Mailman-Version: 1.0b8 > >List-Id: Taking Control > >X-BeenThere: taking-control@converge.org.nz > >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by vesta.plain.co.nz > id UAA30853 > > > >>Return-Path: > >>From: JaredI@aol.com > >>Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 22:41:19 EST > >>Subject: COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > >>To: JaredI@aol.com > >>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by vesta.plain.co.n= > z id > >RAA19754 > >> > >>COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > >>by Portland student/reporter Jim Desyllas > >> > >>Called-in from a pay phone outside Seattle. Wed., 7:30 pm Pacific time.= > =20 > >> > >>(Posted at www.emperors-clothes.com 12-2-99. Feel free to distribute = > in=20 > >>full including this note.) > >> > >>I just spent 4 days in Seattle. The "information" people are getting fr= > om > the=20 > >>mass media is false. This was not, as Pres. Clinton claims, a peaceful=20 > >>protest marred by the actions of violent protesters. This was a massive= > ,=20 > >>strong but peaceful demonstration which was attacked repeatedly by the > police=20 > >>with the express purpose of provoking a violent response to provide pho= > to=20 > >>opportunities for the Western media. I know because I watched it happen= > ing.=20 > >>I'll tell you how they did it. > >> > >>As Michel Chossudovsky says in his "Disarming the New World Order" (See > Note=20 > >># 1 at end for link to that article) - the government put a lot of effo= > rt=20 > >>into making sure the protesters in Seattle were a "loyal opposition" wh= > o=20 > >>wanted to reform the WTO, not get rid of it. But the people in Seattle = > -=20 > >>American steel workers, Canadian postal workers, college kids from all > over,=20 > >>environmentalists from Australia - you name it - were not for reforming= > the=20 > >>WTO. They were for getting rid of it.=20 > >> > >>And this wasn't just true of the protesters. I interviewed delegates. > None of=20 > >>them had anything favorable to say about the WTO. Two delegates from th= > e=20 > >>Caribbean were angry about job loss. One delegate from Peru took a bull= > horn=20 > >>and got up on a car and spoke to the protestors against the World Trade= > =20 > >>Organization. He said it hurts the workers and farmers. I interviewed a= > =20 > >>Norwegian guy from Greenpeace. Totally against it. Even a delegate from= > =20 > >>Holland said it had hurt the farmers there. He said though it is suppos= > edly=20 > >>democratic, that's actually a lie: the US, England and Canada and a few= > =20 > >>others get together and decide what they want to do. Then they ask the = > rest=20 > >>of the countries to vote and if they vote wrong they threaten,"You won'= > t > get=20 > >>loans," or whatever. They get them to do what they want by blackmailing > them.=20 > >>The Italians we interviewed were upset too. I couldn't find any delegat= > es > who=20 > >>were in favor.=20 > >> > >>So the government instigated a "riot" to discredit the movement against= > the=20 > >>WTO because they couldn't dilute it. I am not guessing about this. I wa= > s=20 > >>there. I saw it happening. And I will tell you I am frankly shocked to = > see,=20 > >>close up, just how little our leaders care what happens to ordinary peo= > ple.=20 > >>Clinton can pose and speak a lot of flowery stuff but the truth is - we= > are=20 > >>nothing to them. I saw this with my own eyes. > >> > >>Sunday and Monday, there was no violence. None. The people were > aggressively=20 > >>non-violent; they were self-policing. Up until Tuesday at 4pm there was= > one=20 > >>window broken in the whole city - a McDonalds window. This compares > favorably=20 > >>to the typical rock concert, let alone a demonstration of people who we= > re=20 > >>non-violently barring entry to the World Trade Center! > >> > >>At this point, a new group of police - tactical police - moved in and > started=20 > >>gassing people and shooting rubber bullets. Is it any surprise that peo= > ple=20 > >>got mad? Of course, the young kids hit back by breaking some windows in= > =20 > >>retaliation for being gassed, sprayed with very painful pepper gas, and > shot=20 > >>with dangerous "rubber" bullets. The police instigated these kids, plai= > n > and=20 > >>simple.=20 > >> > >>Sunday and Monday they had young cops, using them to block the streets. > These=20 > >>were trainees. But Tuesday they had the real cops; none of them were yo= > ung.=20 > >>They were trained to attack people. A small group, maybe 100 people tot= > al,=20 > >>struck back. Then these cops herded that group around the city, making = > sure=20 > >>there were plenty of photo ops of "violent protesters."=20 > >> > >>A number of times they had these 100 or so protesters caught between=20 > >>buildings and walls of police. They could easily have arrested and deta= > ined=20 > >>this small number of people and gotten it over with. Instead they would= > gas=20 > >>them and let them go. Then trap them again, gas them again, and again l= > et=20 > >>them go. The cops made no arrests that I know of until late Tuesday nig= > ht=20 > >>though the skirmishing was going on from three till 9:30. The cops woul= > d=20 > >>blockade three or five blocks of an area, give the angry kids room to=20 > >>operate, keep gassing them - when you gas a person, let me tell you, it > gets=20 > >>them fighting mad. > >> > >>Tuesday night the police gassed all of downtown. This was going on from= > 3 > PM,=20 > >>till 6 PM.. Gas everywhere. The kids broke a few windows - McD's, > Starbucks -=20 > >>small stuff - burned a few garbage cans. The police were using these pe= > ople=20 > >>as extras. It was staged. I believe also the police had their own peopl= > e in=20 > >>there, encouraging people to break stuff - if people think I may be=20 > >>exaggerating, I saw supposed protesters - they were screaming and so on= > - > and=20 > >>then later, when everything was over, the same people tackled other=20 > >>protestors and put handcuffs on them. > >> > >>At 6pm they issued a State of Emergency. At that point they had pushed = > the=20 > >>100 people outside the city limits, so the police went outside the limi= > ts=20 > >>too, and they started gassing that area too, gassing the neighborhoods > where=20 > >>the regular people live. I am not exaggerating. The police were relentl= > ess. > >> > >>This was in an area from the city limits for about 10 blocks to the Sea= > ttle=20 > >>Central Community College. If you were alive, the police gassed you. Pe= > ople=20 > >>coming back from work, kids, women, everyone. People would go out of th= > eir=20 > >>houses to see what was happening because these tear gas guns sound like= > a=20 > >>cannon - and they would get gassed. A block away there was a Texaco gas= > =20 > >>station - they threw tear gas at gas pumps, believe it or not - they we= > re=20 > >>like vandals. They gassed a bus. I saw it with my own eyes. A bus. The=20 > >>driver, the riders, the people just abandoned it . > >> > >>I was sitting in a little coffee shop called Rauhaus, [Jim did not spel= > l > this=20 > >>- the spelling may be wrong.] They were shooting "rubber" bullets at th= > e=20 > >>glass. I picked up a dozen of the things in a few square feet. They wer= > e > also=20 > >>shooting this paint that you can only see with a florescent light. They > would=20 > >>paint anyone and everyone and then go hunting them. > >> > >>Anyway, because they were gassing everybody, the local people got mad t= > oo > and=20 > >>they joined the 100 who had been herded out of the city. So soon there = > were=20 > >>500 including the neighborhood people and all very angry. Naturally. > Because=20 > >>they had been gassed and hit with pepper spray, that stuff does a numbe= > r on=20 > >>you. And shot with these damn bullets. Then people set up barricades at= > =20 > >>Seattle Central Community College. The cops organized themselves for > about an=20 > >>hour and then moved in and gassed that area.=20 > >> > >>Today they started mass arrests. That was because Clinton - the Greeks = > call=20 > >>him the Planitarchis, Ruler of the World - was coming. Weeping crocodil= > e=20 > >>tears about how he just LOVES peaceful protest, which of course you'd > have to=20 > >>be two years old to believe he had nothing to do with the police action. > This=20 > >>whole thing, this police attack, this was US foreign policy, not some > action=20 > >>decided by some bureaucrat in Seattle. This was the State Department. T= > hey=20 > >>wanted to discredit the people. > >> > >>When things started on Sunday, there was a protest rally of solidarity= > =20 > >>involving people from different walks of life. Monday it got even bigge= > r.=20 > >>Tuesday there was a big sort of carnival where people were doing differ= > ent=20 > >>things, a band was playing music and people were blocking the World Tra= > de=20 > >>Center. And about 3 PM the cops started throwing tear gas.=20 > >> > >>The thing that drove Clinton crazy was that on Tuesday the protesters h= > ad=20 > >>succeeded in making nonviolent human chains and had therefore stopped=20 > >>everyone from going into the World Trade Center. Only maybe 27 delegate= > s > got=20 > >>through, mostly US and British. There were what seemed like tens of > thousands=20 > >>of protesters involved. So the police did their gassing number against > these=20 > >>nonviolent people to break up the human chains and make the protesters = > look=20 > >>violent.=20 > >> > >>Today (Wednesday) I followed the union protest put together by the=20 > >>Longshoremen's Union. They went down to the docks and had a rally then=20 > >>marched to Third Avenue. As soon as they got there the cops started gas= > sing=20 > >>them. There was an old lady there. She had gone downtown by bus to buy=20 > >>something. This lady was in her 70's and I saw her trying to run, but s= > he=20 > >>couldn't breathe. She was in shock. I carried her to a building entrywa= > y. > She=20 > >>was gasping, terrified. She had been in Germany, and it was like she wa= > s=20 > >>having flashbacks. The tear gas sounds like gunfire and there were=20 > >>helicopters overhead, sirens, cops on horses, everything.=20 > >> > >>They had clearly made a decision to destroy this movement.=20 > >> > >>So anyway there I was with her in this building and she wanted to go to= > the=20 > >>hospital but there was tear gas everywhere and I was afraid if I tried = > to=20 > >>move her she'd be gassed again. I went to this line of cops and begged = > - I=20 > >>mean begged - these riot police to help her. They ignored me. A girl to= > ld > me=20 > >>later that a one year old had been gassed. And I myself saw a girl no m= > ore=20 > >>than 18 - a cop had busted her lip wide open - she was bleeding - and t= > hen=20 > >>they gassed everyone including her. After that she was kneeling on the > ground=20 > >>crying like a baby and praying for 15 minutes, Hail Mary, Hail Mary. Ov= > er > and=20 > >>over. She was in a state of shock. They just gassed these people who we= > re=20 > >>sitting down non-violently and doing nothing. Nothing.=20 > >> > >>At one point the Seattle Mayor said his boys were not using rubber bull= > ets.=20 > >>Miraculously, by then I had ten in my pocket. I could open a little mar= > ket,=20 > >>sell the things. They are everywhere. I and other people started giving > them=20 > >>to delegates and stuff. "See what they're doing? They're shooting "rubb= > er"=20 > >>bullets and lying about it." We showed them to the media. I guess enoug= > h=20 > >>people and the media got the information because the Mayor made a new=20 > >>statement then that they were using them. As if he hadn't known.=20 > >> > >>They shot rubber bullets from four feet away into the face of a guy nex= > t to=20 > >>me, broke all his front teeth. When that happened I lost it. I forgot I= > was=20 > >>supposed to be getting the news for all of you and I started yelling at= > the=20 > >>cops, "What the hell is wrong with you? Are you sick, man?" So this cop > aimed=20 > >>his gun right at me. That was his answer. So I first put my hands in > front of=20 > >>my face because I didn't want to lose my teeth. And then I thought, to = > hell=20 > >>with it. I was wearing my target shirt that said "Collateral Damage", y= > ou=20 > >>know? With a bullseye target, like they wore during the bombing in=20 > >>Yugoslavia. And I told this guy, "Go ahead, shoot! Here! Here's the > target!"=20 > >>He didn't shoot me. > >> > >>I want to emphasize, these protesters were NOT violent people. They wer= > e > the=20 > >>most non-violent people I have ever seen. Even when I was screaming at = > the=20 > >>cop, this girl came up to me and said, "Do not scream. This is > non-violent."=20 > >>These people were too much to believe. They must meditate all the time,= > I=20 > >>don't know.=20 > >> > >>Clinton said he supports nonviolent protest. That is baloney. Today (We= > d.)=20 > >>the protesters were causing absolutely no "trouble". In downtown the co= > ps > had=20 > >>people running who weren't even protesters - like that old lady or just= > =20 > >>people going to work or shopping - everyone was getting gassed. The bus= > ses=20 > >>weren't running because of the gas. I was lucky to catch one with a dri= > ver=20 > >>who could still see. I begged him to drive the old lady home - the driv= > er=20 > >>changed his route especially for her. If you want to find human decency= > , > stay=20 > >>away from the Planitarchis. Go to the to regular people. They have some. > The=20 > >>Planitarchis lost all his years ago. Now he wouldn't know human decency > if it=20 > >>came up and bit him. > >> > >>So now I have made personal acquaintance with the people who run this=20 > >>country, and they are quite simply scum. There were people at work, peo= > ple=20 > >>with babies, they were all getting gassed because the government would = > not=20 > >>allow an assembly of people speaking their minds. It is the same as wha= > t=20 > >>happened in Athens. Clinton's requirements on the Greek government crea= > ted=20 > >>the riot and he did the same thing here. And then he says he supports=20 > >>nonviolent protest? How? By shooting rubber bullets? And today they > outlawed=20 > >>gas masks. They want to make sure everyone gets his money's worth. > >> > >>Today, just like yesterday night, the police were in the residential=20 > >>neighborhoods. People in caf=E9s were getting gassed and shot at, you c= > ould=20 > >>hear it on the windows, bang, bang, bang. A guy trying to cross the > street to=20 > >>go to his house got gassed. First a drunk guy outside a bar yelled at t= > he=20 > >>cops "Get out of here!" so they gassed him. And then this other guys wa= > s > just=20 > >>crossing the street to go home so the cops figured, might as well gas h= > im=20 > >>too. People got gassed for coming out of restaruants and bars and coffe= > ee=20 > >>shops. I'm amazed that nobody died who had asthma or something.=20 > >> > >>Or maybe somebody did die and they didn't talk about it. I mean after a= > ll,=20 > >>it's just collateral damage..=20 > >> > >>*** > >> > >>Note # 1 - For a critical look at the World Trade Organization, click o= > n=20 > >>SEATTLE AND BEYOND: DISARMING THE NEW WORLD ORDER or go to=20 > >>http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm =20 > >>If you're on AOL click here: >>HREF=3D"http://www.emperors-clothes.com/articles/chuss/seattle.htm">SEA= > TTLE > AND=20 > >>BEYOND > >> > >>If you would like to browse articles from Emperors-Clothes.com, click > here Or=20 > >>go to: http://www.emperors-clothes.com or if you're on AOL >>HREF=3D"http://www.emperors-clothes.com/">Click here: The Emperors Clot= > hes > >> > >> > >CAFCA > >Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa > >PO Box 2258, Christchurch > >email: cafca@chch.planet.org.nz > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Taking-control maillist - Taking-control@converge.org.nz > >http://www.converge.org.nz/mailman/listinfo/taking-control > > > > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 11:30:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26588 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 11:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28794; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:30:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from wolfenet.com (ratty.wolfe.net [204.157.98.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28696 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:29:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from WolfeNet (sea-ts5-p69.wolfenet.com [205.163.75.69]) by wolfenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA14574 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:29:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912041629.IAA14574@wolfenet.com> X-Sender: diana@popserv.wolfenet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 09:26:26 +0000 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Diana Chesterfield Subject: Fwd: WTO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 827 And now for another perspective from those who are residents of Seattle...btw, this was printed in the Seattle Times. A couple of broken windows???? Come on....what a bunch of propaganda. A BIG "A" in a circle. Somehow that is too perfect a symbol for the so-called anarchists who worked hard to spoil Seattle's WTO party. These roving digestive-tract terminals completely skewed the picture of legitimate protests against the World Trade Organization. Ugly, tragic events must not be allowed to overwhelm two peaceful protests that resonated inside the ministerial meeting. Random acts of bravery on mean streets must be acknowledged as well. Citizens armed with no more than lung power and ndignation faced down rampaging thugs. People acted like cops in the absence of cops. After a rough, sad week, headlines about 500-plus arrests stir mixed feelings. In those numbers are gutsy, principled protesters exercising a right to oppose a global organization they see threatening workers, food safety, human rights and the environment. Their beliefs inspired acts of civil disobedience, and they paid a painful price. They hunkered down to block streets under clouds of tear gas and pepper spray and rubber bullets in the legs. They were not off breaking windows or setting fires. Free to roam were the young and the reckless, pure vandals who could not spell Mikhail Bakunin, let alone talk coherently about anarchism. These are crow-bar wielding rebels against private property who anchor their wallets to their pants with a length of chain. Nearly 600 arrests is a shocking number, but six times that many people crowded inside First United Methodist Church Monday evening to support Jubilee 2000. That night, 6,000 marched in a spitting rain to a WTO reception in support of the Jubilee movement to cancel the debts of 41 dirt-poor nations. The WTO cannot force international lenders to forgive debts, but director-general Michael Moore insists the WTO is not without its own moral authority. He supports a complementary project. Moore is nudging WTO to work with the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank on finance and trade relief for the least-developed countries. WTO's draft ministerial text proposed duty-free, quota-free market access for products from the poorest countries. This is how the voices inside the First United Methodist Church echoed in the meeting rooms at the state Convention Center. The next day, organized labor pulled off an extraordinary feat, but tear gas would lead the news. Months of planning brought together a massive march that blended labor, environmentalists, religious groups, human-rights and animal-welfare advocates. A dozen topless protesters were also in the ranks. Their craft union affiliation was not obvious, but they were handy with electrical tape. This wonderfully rowdy, diverse assembly outside was boisterous proof that WTO touched a variety of issues close to the lives of Americans. Inside, U.S. negotiators could point out the window and tell international colleagues, "we told you so." The bone-dry language of trade came alive on the streets of Seattle. A delegate told Reuters he suspected the demonstrations were planned to put pressure on foreign negotiators. Take it as a compliment. Parade marshals in orange hats maintained order along the route. Seattle police worked hard to make it work, as they did Monday night for Jubilee 2000. Most of the choreography had been settled for weeks. Where things fell horribly apart Tuesday afternoon were on the side streets and avenues away from the main confrontations. Seattle police by apparent design ceded nearby downtown streets to the better instincts of the public. No one expected, or someone dangerously underestimated, the outlaw factor. Punks raged without fear. The cops were not around. Elsewhere, they did not flinch in the face of serious provocation, and they operated with admirable restraint and hard-ass efficiency when needed. But they were simply not around. In this lawless void, protesters tried to protect shops and businesses with nothing more than chants of "No violence, no violence." When the window-smashers started to trash a Sixth Avenue Starbucks, an angry crowd forced the vandals back onto the streets. A gray-haired, bantam-weight woman in a yellow parka put herself between the Christmas Blend and the thugs and chewed them out. Two others I will never forget: Chrystal Prather plain gave the would-be looters hell. The tall, 21-year-old African-American woman loudly proclaimed she worked hard for everything she had, and was disgusted by those who would destroy businesses and threaten innocent people. She made it clear it was not the protesting she minded, but the mindless destruction she could not abide. At that moment, she spoke for an entire city. Later Tuesday night, a young man blinded by tear gas stumbled down a side street being reclaimed by the police. His face and eyes were on fire and he was bleeding from head wounds. This young protester, a UW student from California, had put himself between Niketown and the vandals and got whacked repeatedly for living his nonviolent beliefs. The history of this sorry week cannot be allowed to overlook two powerful protest marches and the courage of ordinary citizens. When protests got out of control Tuesday, the Seattle Police were outmanned. The error contributed to the risk for them and innocent bystanders. Downtown Seattle was lurching towards chaos, with President Clinton about to arrive. This is no rap on the police. As the day turned ugly, police showed restraint and professionalism. They did their job well during a deteriorating situation. They paid the price for a strategic blunder made by their superiors. They had to passively observe vandals smashing windows, setting fires and spraying graffiti on storefronts. Schell and Police Chief Norm Stamper should not have been surprised. They had ample signs of potential trouble from violent protests over trade policy in Vancouver, B.C., and Geneva; publicized promises by groups to disrupt the WTO, and experience here with vandals who call themselves anarchists. King County Sheriff Dave Reichert acknowledged that he and others had argued in strategy sessions before the WTO that police needed a stronger, more visible presence. Schell, however, endorsed a strategy that essentially put the protests and the WTO on an equal footing. He naively assumed that a large group of protesters could operate close to the meeting site with minimal consequences. He was not helped by council members who appeared at protest rallies, sending a confusing message about what exactly city leaders wanted and expected from the WTO meeting. They hoped for a Seattle-style event of respectful debate, but this was a protest or, more precisely, a set of parallel protests, involving some who had no intention of being managed. Schell did not want the city's friendly image marred by a heavy show of force. As he sought to justify the congenial approach to protests, he made repeated references to his own staff members as veterans of Vietnam protests - a nostalgic sentiment that may have contributed to his miscalculations. Schell accepted assurances that Seattle police alone could handle any arrests without a nearby ready force in case of escalating trouble. By early Tuesday, police were overwhelmed just by the task of protecting the convention center and the Paramount Theatre. They lacked the numbers to pursue vandals and restore order. By noon, protesters had control of downtown. Even with delegates trapped in hotels, the mayor did not accept Gov. Gary Locke's offer of help from the National Guard. Activating the guard, the mayor said later, would have represented a concession to the anarchists - a baffling perspective since police by then were using tear gas to clear streets and hooded people were smashing downtown windows. Three hours later, the mayor switched strategy and accepted outside help. It was his first good decision in a week that has been painful for him, and for this city. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 13:41:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27727 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07287; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:41:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07203 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:40:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-132.premier1.net [207.149.54.132]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id KAA17150; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:34:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001101bf3e87$cc8d90c0$843695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Michaele Blakely" , Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:45:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 828 ----- Original Message ----- From: Michaele Blakely To: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 10:38 AM Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley > To: ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; ; > Cc: ; ; ; > ; ; ; > ; > Sent: Saturday, December 04, 1999 6:58 AM > Subject: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE > > > > I deleted the original message because it was too long to put in a reply, > but I was there. This really happened. I saw some of this with my own > eyes. I don't know the why's and how comes of the police action, but awful > things happened and I could add to the list of incidences. Three things I > will comment on; I marched in 3 protests, all very large with police > presence very visible as well as the reserve and storm troopers. We were > not attacked. But we also were 50,000, 5,000, and 5,000 strong. A hurried > permit was given to us by the city to the last two marches to make us legal. > (It had been declared a no protest zone, only on the sidewalks if we were'nt > too large). Impossible to control if we had decided to get out of hand, we > and all of the protestors were peaceful only a few were violent, we > controlled ourselves, no one ever started anything or retaliated. The ones > who did were led by a group called the Anarchists. I marched with them in > the last march on Friday and they were about 30-40 strong. They were in our > march to instigate something. They didn't get a chance because I and > several other marchers would not leave their tails. We very peacefully let > our presence be known and and they determined they were too vulnerable and > would probably get caught. I know this because I'm a pretty innocuous > gray-haired lady, so I seemingly posed no threat to these youngsters and > they freely discussed plans around me. Lastly, farmers from the Puget Sound > Area (vashon island mainly) hosted a farmer-press breakfast, panel > discussion, march and rally, then strategy sessions. It was very well > attended and was a bright spot for all in the midst of the chaos in Seattle. > As I was clearing a plate from a gentlemen writing for an East Coast paper > (I don't remember which one), he asked me if I was from Seattle. He then > showed me a bruise and pulled out the rubber bullet he had been shot with. > He was saddened, confused and angry. This man is a journalist, he's > probably seen a lot of ugliness, but in his 60 or so years what happened > this week shocked him. Don't let them get away with it. Keep opposing the > WTO. > Michaele Blakely > ]Growing Things > Carnation WA> > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 14:22:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28118 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 14:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09864; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:22:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.montana.com (mailC.montana.com [199.2.139.118]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09790 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 13:22:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from john (mso2-6.montana.com [208.26.212.6]) by mail.montana.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16492; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 12:19:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991204121354.0098f4f0@mail.montana.com> X-Sender: fletcher@mail.montana.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 12:20:26 -0700 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: John Fletcher Subject: Re: FW:[Taking-control] COLLATERAL DAMAGE IN SEATTLE Cc: "Michaele Blakely" In-Reply-To: <001101bf3e87$cc8d90c0$843695cf@pmjb> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 829 Anecdotal testimony published in our local newspaper confirms two points made by Michaele Blakely of Growing Things in Carnation, WA: (1) the "window smashers" numbered less than 100 (Michaele estimates 30-40); (2) the rest of the marchers/protesters did a much better job of restoring order (subduing or restraining the "window smashers") than the law enforcement troops. John Fletcher Dixon Partnership Farm PO Box 8381 Missoula, MT 59807 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 20:16:16 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01024 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00879; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00805 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:15:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-108.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.108]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA30434; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:15:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00f601bf3ed7$6a9b0be0$3efb6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" References: <00ee01bf3ebc$cc95b400$83c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Re: restaurant csa Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:15:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 830 >Hi Robert, This is fasinating. How did you find restaurants interested. And willing to pay up front. Who picks up, owner, chef ? Thanks Beth snip the pros are a great source of steady flow, a larger share price PLUS they > purchase the extras I have or the "wierd stuff" I am just trying to grow. > the work is rewarding also in that the restaurants-if you ask nicely-and > give them the copy to write out, will actually write your name on many > menus: organic greens grown locally y:,....it makes for great advertising. > as someone else on this list-who also grows for restaurants said: the > restaurants get the est-period-perfect produce. The not so perfect stuff i > market to regular folks who love fresh organic foods-fresh & local! > well thanks for the rant space. > good growing > > zone 5 ontario > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 20:17:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01042 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00994; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00914 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:16:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ES2PMMAU; Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:15:32 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:09:28 -0500 Subject: Fw: [TnLP] Dispersing the crowd Message-ID: <19991204.200937.-145053.0.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,18-21,23-33 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 831 Actual photo of a cop firing his rubber bullets into a crowd- point blank range! URL below..... --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Larry To: LP TN Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 18:00:01 -0600 Subject: [TnLP] Dispersing the crowd Message-ID: From: Larry Scary sight. =====> Dispersing the crowd State: WA, Country: United States A close-up photo of a Seattle police officer firing rubber pellets into a crowd at point-blank range. (12/2/99) URL: --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE TYPING FOR YOU! Tired of filling out forms and remembering passwords? Gator fills in forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with $50 in free coupons! Click Here ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 20:38:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01241 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02335; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:38:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02269 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 19:38:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.0.181 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 17:37:55 -0800 From: "Mary Manson" To: , "B H" Subject: Re: [TnLP] Dispersing the crowd Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 18:13:42 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0dc9455370105c9CPIMSSMTPU03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 832 >From: Larry > >Scary sight. > >=====> Dispersing the crowd >State: WA, Country: United States > A close-up photo of a Seattle police officer firing rubber pellets >into a >crowd at point-blank range. (12/2/99) >URL: > >tml Don't get frustrated if clicking on the link above doesn't work - it was too long and got truncated - in the textbox on your browser, add the "tml" to the end of the address and then press *enter* ..... From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 4 23:40:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA03133 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA13270; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:39:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from rmx02.mail.com (rmx02.mail.com [165.251.32.150]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12493 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 22:29:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from web14.mail.com (web14.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.24]) by rmx02.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA12735 for ; Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:29:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <383703173.944368187616.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 23:29:47 -0500 (EST) From: Dan James To: CSA list Subject: FWD: Re: [TnLP] Dispersing the crowd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.136.3.23 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 833 >From: Larry > >Scary sight. > >=====> Dispersing the crowd >State: WA, Country: United States > A close-up photo of a Seattle police officer firing rubber pellets >into a >crowd at point-blank range. (12/2/99) >URL: > >tml Actually, this weapon is used to fire the teargas canisters. Still quite scary though. Couple of points I haven't heard mentioned yet: 1. Why are the trade talks done in secret? Isn't this supposed to be government OF the people, FOR the people and BY the people?? I guess it comes under the Golden Rule of "HE who has the gold-- makes the rules" 2. I thought peaceful AND if deemed necessary VIOLENT protest against government and its policies was part of our heritage or are we now condemning the actions of our fore fathers against the British in the 1700's. I guess that means that I need to go back to school 'cause I sure got everything backwards. 'Scuse me while I go make some tea and figure out how to make crumpits. On a lighter note, how come nobody seems to realize that the coming year 2000 is part of the nineteenth century and the new Millennium doesn't start until 2001. Since there wasn't a year 0, the last day of 1 BC was followed by the first day of 1 AD. Or did someone decide that one of these past Centuries only had 99 years instead of 100.? food for thought. g'night ya'll danJ ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 08:06:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05992 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA02999; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 07:06:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02917 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 07:06:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2a-177.ix.netcom.com [209.110.252.177]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18256; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:06:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013f01bf3f3a$9c80c100$3efb6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Dan James" , "CSA list" References: <383703173.944368187616.JavaMail.root@web14.mail.com> Subject: Re: [TnLP] Dispersing the crowd Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:05:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 834 Hi Dan, I think "most" people know it is not the official start of the Millennium. But purely for pizzazz the year 2000 is being called the new Millennium. Really 20001 doesn't have the same ring:). Beth > On a lighter note, how come nobody seems to realize that the coming year > 2000 is part of the nineteenth century and the new Millennium doesn't start > until 2001. Since there wasn't a > year 0, the last day of 1 BC was followed by the first day of > 1 AD. Or did someone decide that one of these past Centuries > only had 99 years instead of 100.? > food for thought. > > g'night ya'll > danJ > > ----------------------------------------------- > FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com > Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 11:14:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07049 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11353; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:14:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11185 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:13:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912051613.KAA11185@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 35277376; Sun, 05 Dec 1999 16:12:28 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: restaurant csa Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:03:17 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 835 We, too, have been happy with restaurant shares on a smaller scale. One gourmet place buys 2 family shares and picks up once a week, we deliver once a week. Some of the comments from the chef include: We don't need the best looking stuff--once processed nobody knows what it looked like. We like the TASTE. Your produce keeps longer than anything from the wholesalers (of course, it is freshest possible...) The herbs were worth the price of admission...and he would pick surprisingly small amounts. It turns out the varieties that we could offer in small amounts were all he really needed, and the wholesaler required purchase by the pound (which meant much waste in a smallish restaurant) Basil is highly prized in larger quantities (pesto is on the menu) We sometimes barter extra salad greens or basil for meals, so we have a supply of high priced outings paid for by our labor, a nice trade at times. Our restaurant experience has suggested a willingness to pay up front, and to take a "regular" share, using the sometimes small quantities of a given veggie in specials, soup or appetizers. We like working with someone who really appreciated the quality and is creative with the food. Its fun! Try it... Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Robert Ripley > To: CSA list > Subject: restaurant csa > Date: Saturday, December 04, 1999 8:04 PM > > hey all > sorry about the delay > it is exactly like a regular csa EXCEPT the food is grown for restaurant > members-they tell me in november-january what they would like to see me > grow-ot try-they pay their share price-base this on a reasonable amount of > hard work as these shares are 5-10 times larger EACH than a family share. > they can pick up 2 times a week & I deliver on saturdays. there is a lot > more work. > the pros are a great source of steady flow, a larger share price PLUS they > purchase the extras I have or the "wierd stuff" I am just trying to grow. > the work is rewarding also in that the restaurants-if you ask nicely-and > give them the copy to write out, will actually write your name on many > menus: organic greens grown locally y:,....it makes for great advertising. > as someone else on this list-who also grows for restaurants said: the > restaurants get the est-period-perfect produce. The not so perfect stuff i > market to regular folks who love fresh organic foods-fresh & local! > well thanks for the rant space. > good growing > > zone 5 ontario > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 11:20:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07093 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11735; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:20:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from rmx05.globecomm.net (rmx05.iname.net [165.251.8.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11674 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:20:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from web11.mail.com by rmx05.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA01233 ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:20:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384966948.944410811836.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:20:11 -0500 (EST) From: Dan James To: CSA list Subject: nineteen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.136.3.47 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id KAA11675 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 Okay, Okay. I made a boo-boo. What I meant to say was twentieth century not "nineteenth century". That's what I get for reading emails at midnight after my brain has already gone to sleep. I'm down to five brain cells and they're arguing over who's boss. Oh well. Guess I'll go stand for 10 minutes under a flashing SSSTOOOOOOOOOOPPIDD sign. Remember this one?? "They're coming to take me away haa haa hee hee ho ho to the funny farm, where life is beautiful.. hee hee ho ho.." danJ ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 12:00:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07460 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA14024; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:00:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13525 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:53:18 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id d.0.104144c1 (3895) for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:52:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.104144c1.257bf257@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:52:39 EST Subject: Re:Dispersing the crowd To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 Greetings friends, Although many people are concerned about the social and political ramifications of the WTO and actions of the past week in Seattle, I wish to remind folks that this list is focused on the CSA movement. There are many more appropriate venues to focus discussions about the WTO. Can we please limit discussions on this list to subjects more directly related to CSA farming and marketing? Just a suggestion.... Art Biggert << 1. Why are the trade talks done in secret? Isn't this supposed to be government OF the people, FOR the people and BY the people?? I guess it comes under the Golden Rule of "HE who has the gold-- makes the rules">> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 12:14:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07584 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA14953; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:14:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA14873 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:14:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:14:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912051714.LAA14873@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 14882 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 17:14:21 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as002-137.iquest.net (209.43.49.137) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 17:14:21 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: SCook21809@aol.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re:Dispersing the crowd Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 I have to agree that we're off the subject here, although I DO want to be updated on everything that happens with FDA and WTO. Please, everybody who has been carrying on this thread, email me the updates. I am posting them on the OFMA website at http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ Thanks! At 11:52 AM 12/5/99 EST, SCook21809@aol.com wrote: >Greetings friends, > Although many people are concerned about the social and political >ramifications of the WTO and actions of the past week in Seattle, I wish to >remind folks that this list is focused on the CSA movement. There are many >more appropriate venues to focus discussions about the WTO. Can we please >limit discussions on this list to subjects more directly related to CSA >farming and marketing? > Just a suggestion.... Art Biggert > ><< 1. Why are the trade talks done in secret? Isn't this supposed to be >government OF the people, FOR the people and BY the people?? I guess it >comes under the Golden Rule of "HE who has the gold-- makes the rules">> > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 13:21:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08221 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA18553; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:21:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18454 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:20:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.2.157 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:19:48 -0800 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: off-topic ? Hmmm - I don't think so ..... Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:55:21 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0db9448191805c9CPIMSSMTPU03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 >>Why are the trade talks done in secret? Isn't this supposed to be >>government OF the people, FOR the people and BY the people?? I guess it >>comes under the Golden Rule of "HE who has the gold-- makes the rules">> >>g'night ya'll >>danJ >Greetings friends, > Although many people are concerned about the social and political >ramifications of the WTO and actions of the past week in Seattle, I wish to >remind folks that this list is focused on the CSA movement. There are many >more appropriate venues to focus discussions about the WTO. Can we please >limit discussions on this list to subjects more directly related to CSA >farming and marketing? > Just a suggestion.... Art Biggert I respectfully suggest that the Genetically Engineered foods that were also topics of WTO talks have one *helluva* lot to do with CSAs, farming, and marketing (of food) ..... Toni tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 16:12:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09356 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00016; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:12:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24458 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 14:05:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.116]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA442 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:06:06 -0500 Message-ID: <003f01bf3f5d$bb691e00$74c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: worth looing for restaurants Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:17:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 840 my partner has een a chef for over 15 years & is very involved in focus groups dealing with organics & the chefs she had met through this work helped immensely. we have had free open houses to all interested. we have put free ads on radio y just telling the radio it is a "community happening". 99% of stations do this for free. It is true, restaurants do process some raw veg, ut the greens are usually very perfect for presentation-they are really into the taste-we agree! our shares include the open house each summer & one each fall for families/staff of the restaurants. this year a few had their summer parties at our farm. it helps spread the word & the kids loved "search & destroy of hornworms" in the tomatoes! gotta go now zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 16:12:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09364 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00101; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:12:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.68]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28565 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:03:43 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.4.) id d.0.487a3400 (4573) for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:03:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.487a3400.257c2d0c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 16:03:08 EST Subject: RE: Off subject: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 It was only a suggestion. To me, CSA is a direct and local marketing system that offers an agricultural experience to a population that is by in large void of such experience. 98.5% of Americans have no clue about the origin and processing methods of their food. The WTO is about a world marketing system that maintains and supports the separation of large populations from their agricultural roots. For those who shop by price alone the WTO is good. For those who want to support agriculture in their community CSA is good. For small farmers who sell their products in other markets other than CSAs there is room for discussion. However, this list serves CSA farmers who are often small farmers but choose to sell as directly as possible to their customers while offering a relevant connection to the great mother earth. Information about WTO activities and FDA policy regarding GMOs is relevant to this list. But I find the rehashing of bad experiences and political agendas rather trite and unhelpful in my efforts to promote local direct sales of food and reconnecting the disenfranchised population with it's agricultural roots. Kind regard, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 19:29:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11081 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA11997; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:28:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11911 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:28:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-208.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.208]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20783 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:28:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004d01bf3f99$f6da21a0$d0f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "CSA list" References: <199912051613.KAA11185@firefly.prairienet.org> Subject: Re: restaurant csa Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:28:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 > Hi Jim and Jo and list, How did you find your restaurant? Did you make up a separate flyer and send to small restaurants?If so any suggestions. I've always thought it would be fun to sell to a restaurant, purely to see/hear what they make with it. It's like giving raw materials to an artist. One of my favorite things is to have members tell me how they served/cooked their veggies. I can also see where the flip side is true, the chef starting with perhaps the best raw materials they've ever worked with. My own members told me repeatedly this past year that was the "best whatever" they'd have ever tasted, I just loved that. I can almost picture a chef with scissos in hand snipping fresh growing herbs, ah almost makes me wish it was spring (not quite I am enjoying my "vacation"). Thanks Beth We, too, have been happy with restaurant shares on a smaller scale. One > gourmet place buys 2 family shares and picks up once a week, we deliver > once a week. Some of the comments from the chef include: > We don't need the best looking stuff--once processed nobody knows what it > looked like. We like the TASTE. > > Your produce keeps longer than anything from the wholesalers (of course, it > is freshest possible...) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 20:42:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11676 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16547; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:42:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.mail.yahoo.com (smtp.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.68.32]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16448 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:41:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from bsg-ma1d-146.ix.netcom.com (HELO computer) (209.110.251.146) by smtp.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 17:41:33 -0800 X-Apparently-From: Message-ID: <019c01bf3f8b$c1ce73c0$92fb6ed1@computer> Reply-To: "Jared Volpe" From: "Jared Volpe" To: "CSA Networking List" References: <199910180700.CAA27704@firefly.prairienet.org> Subject: Opportunity in Vermont Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:46:44 -0500 Organization: Chelsea Green Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0199_01BF3F61.D76EBE80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 843 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0199_01BF3F61.D76EBE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ORGANIC VEGETABLE FARMER(S) NEEDED to plan and cultivate land in = Starksboro, VT. Develop educational program for kids and adults. Rent = house on land. Call Jim 802-482-3670 or 800-430-2667. =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0199_01BF3F61.D76EBE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    ORGANIC VEGETABLE FARMER(S) NEEDED = to plan and=20 cultivate land in Starksboro, VT.  Develop educational program for = kids and=20 adults.  Rent house on land.  Call Jim 802-482-3670 or=20 800-430-2667.
     
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Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 23:20:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13495 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA26590; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:20:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from mbs.valinet.com (mbs.valinet.com [206.98.218.24]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA26461 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:19:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from dbotkin.hampshire.edu (quincy-ip-8-22.dynamic.ziplink.net [209.206.35.22]) by mbs.valinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA11165 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:19:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912060419.XAA11165@mbs.valinet.com> Reply-To: From: "Daniel Botkin" To: "CSA Networking List" Subject: CSA Opportunity in W. Massachusetts Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:19:08 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 Micro Farmer, Alternative Energy Technician, Herbalist, Goatherd or other skilled and/or inspired Green individual sought to live, collaborate and share in unique organic gardening project/small CSA/counseling retreat center on sunny hilltop in Franklin County, Mass. Share great house and high-ag potential land with one activist, social worker dad and cool daughter (2). Available immediately. Email Dan Botkin or call 413-863-8696. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 5 23:41:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13638 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA28047; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:41:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA27967 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 22:41:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.122]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA495 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:41:38 -0500 Message-ID: <011e01bf3fa5$c230e040$7ac3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA Networking List" Subject: ontario csa/farm Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 23:52:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 100 acre organic farm, sugarbush & csa needs a partner for growing, eating & earning! we are looking for an enthusiastic, dedicated farmer/grower with experience in csa& farm work. partnership does not have to be based on money.email now! we are getting ready for syrup time in spring & planting greenhouses! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 01:36:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14651 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 01:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA05559; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:35:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05477 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:35:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from 206.169.243.70 ([206.169.243.28]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00165; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 00:35:14 -0600 Message-ID: <384B5D09.11D0@smallfarms.com> Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 20:51:53 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: off-topic? Hummm-I don't think so... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 846 Dear Art and Toni, I guess Im apologizing to you (and others) in advance as Im one of the dreaded marketers who take folks off topic. Through my web site, I market small farmers marketing food and a few services which small farmers provide. Oh, I also farm in real life. Agriculture and farming are changing rapidly, and Ive appreciated the postings about Seattle and the events there although I confess I havent read them all in their entirety. (After reading three daily papers, a weekly, and other publications for years, I need a break.) CSA, the WTO, and many other events will shape the way we farm, if we farm, in the future. My feeling is the more information we have, the better off well be. Some events will shape the future for us. CSA is one way to shape our own futures. I suggest that smallfarms.com is another way of shaping our futures. Its a marketing web site for small producers who market directly. I want to help create a marketing PRESENCE thats larger that our individual farms. I think we can do it because we have the numbers and we have the best food around. WE HAVE THE BEST FOOD AROUND!!! (sorry) Visit: http://www.smallfarms.com Check out the farmers by clicking the search window on the left sidebar. See the special offer on the home page or register for our regular rate of $29.00 PER YEAR. (Oops) I think what were doing is important. Hope you agree. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 05:58:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA16255 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 05:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA15959; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 04:58:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA15876 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 04:57:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from magic.excite.com ([199.172.148.161]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <19991206105339.SVNT321.ewey.excite.com@magic.excite.com> for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 02:53:39 -0800 Message-ID: <12944220.944477619194.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 02:53:38 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: restaurant csa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Mail X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.88.252 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 847 On Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:28:27 -0800, Hook Family wrote: > > > > Hi Jim and Jo and list, How did you find your restaurant? Did you make up > a separate flyer and send to small restaurants?If so any suggestions. I've > always thought it would be fun to sell to a restaurant, purely to see/hear > what they make with it. It's like giving raw materials to an artist. One > of my favorite things is to have members tell me how they served/cooked > their veggies. I can also see where the flip side is true, the chef > starting with perhaps the best raw materials they've ever worked with. My > own members told me repeatedly this past year that was the "best whatever" > they'd have ever tasted, I just loved that. > I can almost picture a chef with scissos in hand snipping fresh growing > herbs, ah almost makes me wish it was spring (not quite I am enjoying my > "vacation"). Thanks Beth > Hi Beth, I am neither Jim or Jo but I do sell produce to retuarants and I used to be a chef as well so I know this from both sides. It is best to call the restaurant not send a flier (fliers tend to be put into the circular file) Always ask for the head chef, no one else has the powe to order the food. Sometimes the manager is not the chef do not talk to thatr person if it can be helpped go directly to the chef. The best time of day to make the calls if after lunch which for most places is after 2:30pm but before 4:30 pm. If you call during a meal you will not get the account. Once you talk to the chef set a time to meet and bring lots of samples to give a way. Also have fliers for your farm, a price list (if you have one) bussiness cards, and a list of what you grow and when it will be harvested. If you set this up this time of year bring your seed catalogs with you and do a little preliminary planning with the chef for next year. To find the restaurants look in the phone book and just start calling. Call only locally owned places not chains. Chains usually have their food service under contract with a big company such as Sysco or Ara and will not buy local (or will if you fill out lots of paper work and jump thru a few hoops) Restaurant sales are nice to have as i don't find them to be nearly as complcated as retailling food. You get to pack everything in bulk and you can charge fairly high prices for the food (but not too high as most places spend between 15% and 20% on food, 25% spent on food will lose a restaurant money). Good Luck finding a few restuarants to sell to > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 10:48:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19470 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA04825; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:47:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA04102 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:41:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912061541.JAA04102@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 119762509; Mon, 06 Dec 1999 15:40:33 GMT From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: "Hook Family" , "CSA list" Subject: Re: restaurant csa Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 10:37:16 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 848 When we went for the restaurant share we encountered a bit of serendipity/coincidence. We happened to have a large surplus of basil. The restaurant was newly opened and we thought they might be interested in our farm (for the following year, as our shares were sold...this was in August), so as an intro to the place Jo went in with a big bag of freshly picked basil. As it happened, the wholesaler had left the basil out of the delivery, just that very day. We were in! The next year we simply offered them conventional shares with some perks: edible flowers, "select" veggies (mainly meaning bigger/easier to handle, since appearance was not a priority) extra herbs. A second "commercial" share (actually 3 regular shares in this case) went to a nearby deli. We went in late in the season, after regular pickups, with some left over daikon radishes, cabbage, turnips...the really exotic stuff :>). Turns out they LOVED that kind of produce. We were in! So we like the idea of bringing samples. But just talking to the cook/chef about what you are doing would work in many cases. Or invite them to the farm to see what you are doing. It really is a lot like giving raw materials to an artist. We have a two part piece in The Community Farm written by our chef/member. If you would like a copy let us know and we will give you the particulars. Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ ---------- > From: Hook Family > To: CSA list > Subject: Re: restaurant csa > Date: Sunday, December 05, 1999 10:28 PM > > > > > Hi Jim and Jo and list, How did you find your restaurant? Did you make up > a separate flyer and send to small restaurants?If so any suggestions. I've > always thought it would be fun to sell to a restaurant, purely to see/hear > what they make with it. It's like giving raw materials to an artist. One > of my favorite things is to have members tell me how they served/cooked > their veggies. I can also see where the flip side is true, the chef > starting with perhaps the best raw materials they've ever worked with. My > own members told me repeatedly this past year that was the "best whatever" > they'd have ever tasted, I just loved that. > I can almost picture a chef with scissos in hand snipping fresh growing > herbs, ah almost makes me wish it was spring (not quite I am enjoying my > "vacation"). Thanks Beth > > We, too, have been happy with restaurant shares on a smaller scale. One > > gourmet place buys 2 family shares and picks up once a week, we deliver > > once a week. Some of the comments from the chef include: > > We don't need the best looking stuff--once processed nobody knows what it > > looked like. We like the TASTE. > > > > Your produce keeps longer than anything from the wholesalers (of course, > it > > is freshest possible...) > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 13:58:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02089 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 13:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA23359; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 12:57:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.30]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13959 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:21:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.109 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:20:42 -0800 From: "Mary Manson" To: Subject: Re: Off subject: Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 09:56:08 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0ab5842201706c9CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 849 > It was only a suggestion.< (snip As was mine. > However, this list serves CSA farmers who are often small farmers but >choose to sell as directly as possible to their customers while offering a >relevant connection to the great mother earth. Information about WTO >activities and FDA policy regarding GMOs is relevant to this list. But I >find the rehashing of bad experiences and political agendas rather trite and >unhelpful in my efforts to promote local direct sales of food and >reconnecting the disenfranchised population with it's agricultural roots. >Art Biggert When my nose is too tight to the grindstone of my work, my view of my environment is also limited. I am not the only one who is isolated due to age, infirmity, circumstance - and the "rehashing" of bad experiences and political agendas *to some degree* is also the only contact I have with what is beyond my doorstep and interest. But what I remember, and those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat its mistakes, is some one understanding - finally - " ..... when they come for you ..... " there will be no one to help you if you do not cry out and help others first. Toni From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 20:24:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18116 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00614; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:22:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp5.jps.net (smtp5.jps.net [209.63.224.55]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00475 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:20:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-146-99.stk.jps.net [216.224.146.99]) by smtp5.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA28808 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:20:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <384C6233.94CDB3ED@jps.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 18:26:18 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: WTO Protest right on target for CSA discussion References: <0ab5842201706c9CPIMSSMTPU08@email.msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 850 I have friends who were there. I think the WTO is likely destroying small farm communities all over the world. I don't know if we or anyone can do anything that will make it better, but I appreciate the efforts and dialogue. I was glad to see the posts. -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 21:49:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19407 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA07849; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:45:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.wesleyan.edu (smtp.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.61]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07727 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:44:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from student.wesleyan.edu (student.wesleyan.edu [129.133.1.63]) by mail.wesleyan.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03337 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:44:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:44:48 -0500 (EST) From: "Kelly L. Paul" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: college student seeking info from farmers! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 851 Hey all, I am a college student doing research on CSA's. My knowledge of them is fairly limited at the moment, and I am extremely interested in learning more. I am interested in possibly talking to a farmer on email or over the phone about this to help me with my research and for personal knowledge. If anyone out there is interested in helping me out, I would greatly appreciate it! Thanks! Kelly From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 21:55:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19529 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08476; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:53:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA08418 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:53:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2a-86.ix.netcom.com [209.110.252.86]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28945; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:52:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501bf4077$59213e60$56fc6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Kelly L. Paul" , References: Subject: Re: college student seeking info from farmers! Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:53:10 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 Hi Kelly, Why don't you just ask the list a few questions. We'll have a better idea of what info you are looking for. Then if anyone wishes to embellish they may do so either to the list or to you through private e-mail. From what state are you writing, you may just get invited to come look at a farm. Beth ----- Original Message ----- From: Kelly L. Paul To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 6:44 PM Subject: college student seeking info from farmers! > Hey all, > I am a college student doing research on CSA's. My knowledge of them is > fairly limited at the moment, and I am extremely interested in learning > more. > I am interested in possibly talking to a farmer on email or over the phone > about this to help me with my research and for personal knowledge. > > If anyone out there is interested in helping me out, I would greatly > appreciate it! > > Thanks! > Kelly > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 22:38:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20247 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA12027; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:34:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA11968 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:33:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.108]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA448 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:33:56 -0500 Message-ID: <004501bf4065$7d1584a0$6cc3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: zone 5 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:45:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 853 hi we are in zone 5 ontario, but we are exactly 335km West of ottawa. i wish we were neighbours! they restaurants are a good source of steady work & income-try asking for recipes-add the chef's name to them, give them to other customers & watch the chef's eyes light up-your foods, their recipes=success good luck zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 22:50:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA20379 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 22:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA13151; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:47:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12221 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:37:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from 206.169.243.60 ([206.169.243.5]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA20524; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:36:51 -0600 Message-ID: <384C84BC.50FE@smallfarms.com> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:53:32 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hook Family CC: "Kelly L. Paul" , csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: college student seeking info from farmers! References: <001501bf4077$59213e60$56fc6ed1@guldann> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 854 Beth and Paul, May I second Beth's suggestion? I've been on this list only a few weeks and the quality of the information exchanged here is excellent. I'd like to hear from some of the experts - I mean experts - that seem so numerous here. You mind, Kelly? glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 6 23:04:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA20483 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA14288; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:59:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14230 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:59:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-150.premier1.net [207.149.54.150]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id TAA00733 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:53:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000e01bf4068$36d57b00$963695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: WTO information sites Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:04:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4025.27D807A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 855 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4025.27D807A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of you interested in learning more about the WTO two useful = (but biased) sites are www.worldtradeobserver.org and www.wtowatch.org = To get to the agriculture stuff on the watch site, go to links, click on = food security. Michaele Blakely Growing Things ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4025.27D807A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    For those of you interested in learning = more about=20 the WTO two useful (but biased) sites are www.worldtradeobserver.org= and www.wtowatch.org To get to the = agriculture=20 stuff on the watch site, go to links, click on food = security.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing = Things
    ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BF4025.27D807A0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 11:59:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00099 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05233; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:59:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from isns1.shasta.com (isns1.shasta.com [207.16.64.5]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03262 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:44:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from trinitycounty.org ([63.64.195.131]) by isns1.shasta.com (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18755 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:43:29 -0800 Received: from trinitycounty-Message_Server by trinitycounty.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:41:16 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 08:40:58 -0800 From: "Lisa Preschel-Quinn" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: out in the sticks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id KAA03263 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 856 I am the coordinator for a nutrition education/food security project in rural Trinity county, CA. We created 2 new community gardens this year and I am researching CSA type options for keeping us going. I would like to correspond with others who may be working in a rural area since our isssues are probably quite different from you city folk. Hope this message reaches its destination; this is my first time posting. Lisa From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 12:12:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00332 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07084; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:12:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06017 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:05:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-239-44.s44.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.44] helo=hj7fk) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11vO2Z-00052R-00 for CSA-L@prairienet.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:04:40 -0500 Message-ID: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: Subject: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:04:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 857 I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's a rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a guaranteed income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were suddenly to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to learn about CSA. I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, just a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who I'm hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear about those as well. Thanks, Jim Austin From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 13:01:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01275 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA12051; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:01:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11939 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:00:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-102.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.102]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12390; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:00:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001e01bf40f6$17d794c0$66f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Jim Austin" , References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:00:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 Dear Jim, Farmer here. In our situation, the limiting factor is that there are not enough hours in the day :). We own and run our CSA. Live over the shop you might say. There are 3 adults working. Myself, my husband, and another goofy person in partnership with our farming endevor. Both guys have off farm jobs, while we "grow" the business. At this point I think increasing our CSA members would require hiring help, I don't think increasing the expenses simply to increase membership makes much sense. My husband would like to farm full time, but the reality of our finances for the next few years (two teenagers needing college educations) will prohibit that. We have plans to diversify into other agricultural marking endevors as well besides just the CSA. Haven't fully worked out the details but more in the value added area. Another reason I believe is scale of intimacy. At what point do you stop knowing your "members" (as opposed to customer) by name. So in answer to your question I think there are more potential members out there than there are farmers willing/able to farm.. Beth > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's a > rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: > consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a guaranteed > income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply > limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were suddenly > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to learn > about CSA. > > I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, just > a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who I'm > hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > about those as well. > > Thanks, > > Jim Austin > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 17:01:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06386 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA06450; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:00:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d09.mx.aol.com (imo-d09.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02357 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:24:38 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo-d09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id a.0.8dc4befe (3933); Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:23:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8dc4befe.257ed4ed@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:23:57 EST Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? To: jim1austin@rcn.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 859 Dear Jim, We have asked the same question over and over again. As far as I can tell, there are two biggies that people report to us. 1. We compete with produce that is seasonal -- ergo you must think about meals differently. You go, get your veggies and then ask, what shall I make? This is in contrast to the supermarket where you NEVER have to get the same vegetable twice in a in the same month, much less once a week for the duration of the season. So, choice and education about seasonal eating are a big factor. The corallary of that seems to be that many people don't cook anymore. So, they don't have a clue as to what to do with a bunch of fresh picked, dew dripping veggies! Again, education and having people VALUE the time they spend eating and cooking are crucial 2. Many CSAs are like the Sorcerer's Apprentice. You sign up and then for the next 22 weeks you commit to getting a bag of groceries -- even if you are on vacation, up at the lakeside cottage, etc. etc. We have had people tell us that they love the idea, but they aren't around enough in the summer (we are near Buffalo, NY so our season is Jul1 - Nov. 22) to justify the waste. My two cents worth Sue Tannehill From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 17:11:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06534 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA07238; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:11:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03028 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:32:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNB105-26.splitrock.net [209.156.66.164]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13548; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:32:15 -0500 Message-ID: <006e01bf40fa$805c5680$0164fcd1@708661617> Reply-To: "Spring Run Farm" From: "Spring Run Farm" To: "Jim Austin" , References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:58:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 Farmer, here too. I just read Beth's post and agree with her concerns about scale and intimacy for specific farmers. The larger question is why aren't more farmers choosing CSA. Our experience this year, our first as a CSA, was that most people do not know what it is, but as soon as they get the tiniest bit of information, they want to join, right now! We had 17 member families this year and planned to only take 20 next season, but the word-of-mouth has been phenomenal. We are only losing one or maybe two of our original members and we have another 8 or 10 who want to take their place. And ours is truly a working CSA. In our tentative foray into this, we only asked 4 hours of on-farm work from our member households. We held six work days and never had less than 4 households represented. Some folks worked 25-30 hours and the membership voted in August to require 12 hours participation next season. I think there is interest by consumers in relating to farms and its our responsibility to let them know how they can. We have been amazed by the reception to the CSA concept. Noreen Spring Run Farm New Lebanon, OH ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Austin To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 12:04 PM Subject: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's a > rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: > consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a guaranteed > income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply > limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were suddenly > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to learn > about CSA. > > I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, just > a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who I'm > hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > about those as well. > > Thanks, > > Jim Austin > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 17:28:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06796 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA09458; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:26:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07399 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:13:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from 206.169.243.58 ([206.169.243.82]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA28353; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:12:56 -0600 Message-ID: <384D8A04.6495@smallfarms.com> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 12:29:28 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org CC: "Jim Austin Hook Family" Subject: Re:Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Marketing. References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> <001e01bf40f6$17d794c0$66f86ed1@guldann> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 861 Dear Jim and Beth, As a business person, former retailer and wholesaler: If we were CSA, Inc., Pasture Poultry, Inc. or Organic Farmers, Inc. now would be the time to expand our business with more farms; improved facilities and packaging; greater advertising and promotions of our healthy, great food from the source of all foods, the farm. Customers are on waiting lists!?!!?. We cant meet their demands? Our CEO would step forward and tell us, D-- the torpedoes; full speed ahead! Wed actually lose money during this expansion period due to our investments in new acreage, distribution points, and so on. Our years of toil would be rewarded with new markets and customers/members! As a farmer, Beth says speaks for me: >Dear Jim, Farmer here. In our situation, the limiting factor is that there >are not enough hours in the day :). We own and run our CSA. Live over the >shop you might say. There are 3 adults working. Myself, my husband, and >another goofy person in partnership with our farming endeavor. Both guys >have off farm jobs, while we "grow" the business. Time = money. Like me Ill bet she doesnt pay herself and her husband by the hour. Beth adds: > husband would like to farm full time, but the reality of our finances for > the next few years (two teenagers needing college educations) will prohibit > that. and: > Another reason I believe is scale of intimacy. At what point do you stop > knowing your "members" (as opposed to customer) by name. As the smallfarms.com marketer, elements of the farmer in me and the business person says marketing is one way to make CSAs "bigger": Have a look at how Lucy of Boulder Belt Gardens CSA in Ohio; John of Olin-Fox Farms in Va.; and Mark and Melinda, maple syrup people in Minnesota, are using smallfarms.com. As a collection of independent farmers we present a variety of safe, quality food from our farms. Free listings are available to many states, and our regular registration fee is $29.00 PER YEAR! Remind your current customers theyre buying from the right people! Tell new customers what you offer and how you distribute! Register your farm with a community of farmers. Glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 18:31:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07738 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16471; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:31:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16368 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:30:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.207.69.90] (dialup025.serv.net [207.207.69.90]) by mx.serv.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA02786; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:30:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912072330.PAA02786@mx.serv.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 15:30:41 -0800 Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? From: "Adam Gottschalk" To: Jim Austin , CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 862 Jim, Here's a different take on things. Jim said: >I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. First off, CSA does no such thing. And this is a vitally important point: CSA supplies *vegetables* to some 75,000 families (actually I've heard it's more than 100,000). >what are the limiting factors? Is it supply >limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough >interested consumers)? Or is it something else? It's something else. CSA won't braden its impacts until it emphasizes the provision of full diets. A few pounds of vegetables every week just isn't a vital consideration for most of us. More CSAs need to associate themselves emphatically with grain (and meat) production--it is my own take on things furthermore that leads me to believe that grain provision is, if anything is, your "limiting factor." More CSA people need to think of themselves as more than just vegetable farmers. (This for economic, dietary, soil-nutritional and many other reasons). On this note, I am working to develop a CSA that provides full meals, a Community Supported Restaurant (CSR), if you will. The CSR is quite different from the "restaurant CSA" discussed on this mailing list of late in that the farmers and the kitchen are intertwined; farm production includes vegetables as the smallest category in its pursuits. If anyone would like to discuss this idea more or to read a recent write-up I have developed, please let me know. Peace, Adam From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 18:38:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07849 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA17136; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:38:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from main.tellink.net (root@main.tellink.net [208.3.160.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17070 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:38:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from barthunte.tellink.net (pm-5-46.tellink.net [208.3.161.206]) by main.tellink.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id SAA10351 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:38:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001c01bf410b$d7417460$cea103d0@tellink.net> From: "W. Bart Hunter" To: Subject: Re:Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Marketing. Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:36:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF40E1.EAFC8460" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 863 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF40E1.EAFC8460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, Interestingly I read this question differently then those who have = responded so far. I read as--why isn't the CSA movement (if I can call = it that) larger? Not the individual farms. I think that there are a = number of reason's for this--ranging from the effects of the WTO to the = fact that we have largely lost the sense of community which once = permeated this country. As we read of the struggles of the farmers on = this list (I am not currently farming) I think we can see the widespread = lack of support. How can we have more CSA's when the ones we have are = barely making a living for those who own and run them? Most people just = don't understand how important it is to know where their food comes = from. For example I know many people who live on soy products and = espouse a "natural lifestyle." Yet over 50% of the commercial soy beans = grown in this country are genetically altered! I don't consider anything = that has been genetically altered to be organic or natural. What is = needed is education and for the federal government to get out of the = farming business. A farm in every community, a community around every farm. Bart ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF40E1.EAFC8460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi All,
     
    Interestingly I read this question = differently=20 then those who have responded so far. I read as--why isn't the CSA = movement (if=20 I can call it that) larger? Not the individual farms. I think that there = are a=20 number of reason's for this--ranging from the effects of the WTO to the = fact=20 that we have largely lost the sense of community which once permeated = this=20 country. As we read of the struggles of the farmers on this list (I am = not=20 currently farming) I think we can see the widespread lack of support. = How can we=20 have more CSA's when the ones we have are barely making a living for = those who=20 own and run them? Most people just don't understand how important it is = to know=20 where their food comes from. For example I know many people who live on = soy=20 products and espouse a "natural lifestyle." Yet over 50% of the = commercial soy=20 beans grown in this country are genetically altered! I don't consider = anything=20 that has been genetically altered to be organic or natural. What is = needed is=20 education and for the federal government to get out of the farming=20 business.
     
    A farm in every community, a = community around=20 every farm.
    Bart
    ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF40E1.EAFC8460-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 18:57:58 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08081 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19229; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:57:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18205 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:47:19 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id n.0.621bf1f0 (4569); Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:46:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.621bf1f0.257ef641@aol.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:46:09 EST Subject: Re: Grains & Meat: To: adam@serv.net, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 864 Adam, I am very interested in your write up on a complete diet CSA. I haven't had much success getting my subscribers to accept and enjoy beans let alone grains if I could grow them in the maritime Northwest. I do raise and process chicken and pork on a very limited scale with excellent demand. But I am very interested in your focus on the whole diet as a community service. Please post it. Kind regards, Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 20:54:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09861 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02887; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:54:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02802 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:54:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.114]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA442; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:54:00 -0500 Message-ID: <003901bf4120$b66b2fa0$72c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" , "Jim Austin" References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:05:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 the problem is that people think it is not convenient-that is why the golden arches has line-ups, that drive-thru banks are now a reality & that cost-co type places are springing up all over canada. nobody believes in being good to themselves anymore, just quick & in plastic all too often-that's is what we hear a lot of quick, all in one place, easy-wow, if the families of 100 years ago could see how far we haven't progressed :( zone 5 ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Austin To: Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 12:04 PM Subject: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's a > rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: > consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a guaranteed > income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply > limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were suddenly > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to learn > about CSA. > > I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, just > a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who I'm > hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > about those as well. > > Thanks, > > Jim Austin > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 20:59:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09893 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA03243; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:59:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03008 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:56:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.114]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA464 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:56:38 -0500 Message-ID: <004d01bf4121$14937ec0$72c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: oops yes in ontario Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:08:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 866 sorry all i forgot to hit the address signature! yes, we are in ontario canada approx 1 hour north east of toronto zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 23:09:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11658 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA13839; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:08:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA13644 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:07:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-68.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.68]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA13633 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:07:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00ad01bf414a$e7c81ca0$44fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: Subject: Fw: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:06:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 867 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: Hook Family Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > Another farmer here. > I think there are many reason why CSA hasn't caught on with everyone in the > US. > No i don't think it is supply though that could well be an issue in the > future. I do think there are not enough interested or more likely aware > consumers. That is changing as the word get out. Parade Mag had a small CSA > article last month other well nown periodicles will likely do the same. > CSA are not an easy way to get food. They force the customer to cook (over > 70% of the US meals are eaten in restaurants) and think ahead about their > menues. Americans are not used to doing this. Most Americans do not know how > to cook. > They often require the customers to do farm labor etc. they always require > the consumer to take an active role in their food something no American does > at the moment. We are as a whole very passive food consumers. We don't > really care what we eat as long as it is cheap, easy and loaded with fat > salt and sugar. CSA food is not cheap easy or loaded with crap. > > Are they a good deal for the farmer? I don't know. At the moment I am > inclined to say no as we have gone through two shaky start up years but I am > an optimist and i think in the future it will be the best thing we have ever > done with the farm. > I see the CSA as a vehicle for social change-they teach the consumer where > food comes from and should garner the grower a living wage. They go against > everything modern conventional ag. stands for. Hand crafted food grown on > small family run farms and the harvest is sold directly to the consumer VS > machined food grown on huge acarage sold thru several middle men and bought > after thousands of miles of shipping and weeks of storage at a store owned > by a faceless multinational corp. > > Can enough be charged to make CSA work? Yes if the grower will charge > enough. Americans can be talked into spending $$ on about anything these > days I think they can even be talked into spending $$ on good food. > On Tue, 7 > > > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. > That's > > a > > > rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: > > > consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a > guaranteed > > > income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply > > > limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough > > > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were > > suddenly > > > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good > deal > > > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > > > > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to > > learn > > > about CSA. > > > > > > I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, > > just > > > a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who > > I'm > > > hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > > > about those as well. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Jim Austin > > > > > > > > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 7 23:14:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA11718 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14383; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:13:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA14034 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 22:11:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-68.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.68]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA20409; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:11:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00b701bf414b$6f72a440$44fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Hook Family" , References: <00ad01bf414a$e7c81ca0$44fa6ed1@guldann> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:11:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 868 Hi List, my previous message was forwarded from Lucy on her request, I realized it may have seemed confusing. Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 07:47:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16206 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA09859; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 06:47:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09778 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 06:46:51 -0600 (CST) From: john@strohalm.nl Received: from strohalm.nl (dc2-isdn1115.dial.xs4all.nl [194.109.152.91]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA03238 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:46:49 +0100 (CET) To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:38:03 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Message-ID: Priority: normal In-reply-to: <00ad01bf414a$e7c81ca0$44fa6ed1@guldann> X-Hops: 1 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 869 Dear subscribers, Reading the discussion about this subject - the CSA-movement -, I think there are several issues going on: 1. how to get more people/consumers in a CSA? 2. how to get more CSA-members involved in the work on the farm and the CSA? 3. how to get more farms into a CSA? My experience as a CSA-consultant in the Netherlands is that those questions are really important, but there is I think a more basic question: 4. Is the CSA concept attractive enough for consumers and farmers to participate, not only for those idealistic and food concious people who are prepared to spend time, labor and money in a CSA? Is the CSA concept we know today not restricted in itself in a way that they are more or less farm oriented and where more or less active consumers are needed? I think that we are not capable to organise more than a very small percentage of people in the CSA movement, maybe even not more than 0,5-1%. If we want a broader movement, then we have to think in a different way about the CSA concept. - Why shouldn't we organise CSA differently, not only through the common CSA's in which the consumers are organised around a farm where they get their veggie shares, but can't we make a CSA around e.g. a city? - Can't we organise CSA's which are city oriented and in which the non-active consumers can be a member, but show their commitment by signing up for an annual agreement, read the newsletters and share the common values? - Are there experiences of villages or cities in which local food shops are supplied by different local farms (year round) in a CSA? To get your share in a local shop gives more opportunities for most of the people who don't want to do more than shopping as usual. Does anybody of you have experiences with those questions? And what do you think about those questions? Does it make sense to think about CSA like this?? John van Soest Pergola (CSA) department of Strohalm Netherlands john@strohalm.nl www.strohalm.nl From: "Hook Family" To: Subject: Fw: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:06:41 -0800 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: Hook Family Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 1999 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > Another farmer here. > I think there are many reason why CSA hasn't caught on with everyone in > the US. > No i don't think it is supply though that could well be an issue in the > future. I do think there are not enough interested or more likely aware > consumers. That is changing as the word get out. Parade Mag had a small > CSA > article last month other well nown periodicles will likely do the same. > CSA are not an easy way to get food. They force the customer to cook > (over > 70% of the US meals are eaten in restaurants) and think ahead about their > menues. Americans are not used to doing this. Most Americans do not know > how to cook. > They often require the customers to do farm labor etc. they always require > the consumer to take an active role in their food something no American > does > at the moment. We are as a whole very passive food consumers. We don't > really care what we eat as long as it is cheap, easy and loaded with fat > salt and sugar. CSA food is not cheap easy or loaded with crap. > > Are they a good deal for the farmer? I don't know. At the moment I am > inclined to say no as we have gone through two shaky start up years but I > am an optimist and i think in the future it will be the best thing we have ever > done with the farm. > I see the CSA as a vehicle for social change-they teach the consumer where > food comes from and should garner the grower a living wage. They go against > everything modern conventional ag. stands for. Hand crafted food grown on > small family run farms and the harvest is sold directly to the consumer VS > machined food grown on huge acarage sold thru several middle men and > bought > after thousands of miles of shipping and weeks of storage at a store owned > by a faceless multinational corp. > > Can enough be charged to make CSA work? Yes if the grower will charge > enough. Americans can be talked into spending $$ on about anything these > days I think they can even be talked into spending $$ on good food. > On Tue, 7 > > > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. > That's > > a > > > rather small percentage. Yet, it seems like a good deal for everyone: > > > consumer's get better food at an excellent price, farmers get a > guaranteed > > > income. So I'm wondering: what are the limiting factors? Is it supply > > > limited (not enough acreage in CSA farms) or demand limited (not enough > > > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were > > suddenly > > > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good > deal > > > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > > > > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to > > learn > > > about CSA. > > > > > > I'd appreciate all opinions, but tell me just a little about yourself, > > just > > > a sentence (are you a farmer? A consumer? A student?), so I'll know who > > I'm > > > hearing from. And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > > > about those as well. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Jim Austin > > > > > > > > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > Yours sincerely, John van Soest on behalf of the Pergola-department of Stichting Aktie Strohalm Oudegracht 42 3511 AR Utrecht the Netherlands tel: +31 - (0)30 - 2 314 314 fax: +31 - (0)30 - 2 343 986 e-mail: john@strohalm.nl www.strohalm.nl/english From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 08:32:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16634 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA12518; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:32:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12456 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:32:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1d-246.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.246]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12125; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:32:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <011e01bf4199$c575d9e0$44fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:32:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 870 John wrote the message below, most is snipped. There are CSAs in the US that serve suburban/urban members. The CSA that is nearest to ours has approx 70 members some local and some who live closer to Boston (an hour trip due to traffic). I am not familiar with all aspects of this operation but I believe there is a drop off point just outside the city ,Jamacia Plain I believe .Surfing the web and reading CSA web pages many list their pick up schedules and pickup PLACES off farm. Those of you who offer this service will be more help to John. Why we don't, we have 85 acres in an increasinly suburbanized area. So one we are not very far from any of our members, 5-6 miles tops. Plus we not only want the "farmers face on the food", we want the whole farm to be part of the package. Could we pick up some members if we advertised $xxx and we'll deliver to your door once a week I bet the answer is yes. But it's not where our hearts lie, it lies and is very connected to the farm itself and that is what we offer with the veggies. But given our population density we can(require pick-up only), however if you had a farm away from population centers packing up and delivering it to a central location is a viable option but I think you have to work harder to maintain the Community in CSA. Stay at the drop off point and chat for awhile, write a detailed newletter etc. Beth John wrote: Can't we organise CSA's which are city oriented and in which the non-active consumers can be a member, but show their commitment by signing up for an annual agreement, read the newsletters and share the common values? > > Does anybody of you have experiences with those questions? And what > do you think about those questions? Does it make sense to think > about CSA like this?? > > John van Soest > Pergola (CSA) department of Strohalm Netherlands > john@strohalm.nl > www.strohalm.nl > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 09:04:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA17292 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA14670; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:04:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.92]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14552 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:03:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from nt.ktg.gau.hu (nt.ktg.gau.hu [193.225.204.93]) by svr-sun.ktg.gau.hu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09085 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:55:05 -0100 (GMT) Received: from cdr (193.225.204.67) by nt.ktg.gau.hu (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:04:58 +0100 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 15:04:58 +0100 Message-ID: X-Sender: matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Matthew Hayes Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 871 Dear John and list Interesting input on possible broader outlets for CSA's. I think it is important to maintain in the back of our minds the basic purpose of CSA's is to bring a closer associative link between agriculture and those who depend on agriculture (all of us). CSA's ideally address some of the economic and social questions of sustainability in agriculture, and I think it is desirable that the "deep" CSA models are pursued - i.e. CSA's which are strong on levels of commitment required of shareholders - in order to reach an understanding of how consumers and farmers and farms can really be reconnected. On the other hand, I think the questions you raise, John, are really good ones: >- Why shouldn't we organise CSA differently, not only through the >common CSA's in which the consumers are organised around a farm where >they get their veggie shares, but can't we make a CSA around e.g. a >city? >- Can't we organise CSA's which are city oriented and in which >the non-active consumers can be a member, but show their commitment >by signing up for an annual agreement, read the newsletters and share >the common values? >- Are there experiences of villages or cities in which local food >shops are supplied by different local farms (year round) in a CSA? To >get your share in a local shop gives more opportunities for most of >the people who don't want to do more than shopping as usual. I think that we should freely explore the possibilities you raise for "environmental", CSA inspired new marketing methods to at least increase the level of awareness of urban consumers about the needs, demands and problems of supplying healthy, sustainable, fresh food. Our experience here in Hungary is that we can only move slowly towards the "deep" CSA approach if we want to keep up our membership numbers. I think the intermediate approach of supplying weekly produce for weekly paid for produce, but with a stated commitment to support the farm through purchasing boxes throughout the season, has benefits, especially for those who couldn't or wouldn't sign up for a share of the crop in advance. A potential problem of using local shops as pick up points for CSA produce is that the shop would generally want to have some kind of income for providing the service, and this would increase the costs of the boxes. We have also (not very exhaustively) tried supplying our weekly mixed veg boxes at the organic farmers' market in Budapest - the problem there is that people who are at market naturally enough prefer to select their own vegetables, rather than by a (fixed) mixed box. But in any case, CSA pioneers hit on a very interesting method to reinvent the market place. We should extensively and creatively explore the possibilities open to us! Matthew ============================================================================= Matthew Hayes Institute of Environmental and Landscape Management Godollo Agricultural University H-2103 Godollo Pater K.u.1. Hungary Tel: ++36 28-415 383,or 310 131 ext.1058 Fax: ++36 28-415 383 E-mail: Matthew@nt.ktg.gau.hu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 12:38:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA21255 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA04062; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:37:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.gilanet.com ([207.66.20.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03910 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:36:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.66.34.254] by mail.gilanet.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/4c.ag4n) with ESMTP id da538255 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:45:39 -0700 Message-ID: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 10:36:11 -0700 From: Stefan Fuegi Reply-To: steffo@gilanet.com Organization: Bear Creek Farms X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 872 Enjoying the conversation! Thanks everyone. Our CSA is in a remote area, 30 miles from a small "city" which has a population of 12,000 but is the biggest city for about 100 miles in any direction. We do have a few members right near the farm, but even most of those pick up their food in front of the post office rather than on the farm. A lot of our members are retirees, and I can't imagine many of them coming to the farm. We have rugged dirt roads where you really want a 4X4 and numerous gates restraining neighbors' livestock which must be opened and closed. So we're very inaccessible. One of these days we hope to afford some roadwork and cattle guards, but we will never be on the beaten path. We have talked about hiring a delivery person in town to run around and deliver to peoples' doorsteps for a small extra fee. We'd still need a fixed pickup point in town as well. We have members up to 80 miles away from the farm. We are the only certified organic farm in an area about the size of Massachusetts, maybe bigger. Actually, we are the only farm producing anything but beef in an area almost that big, although there are some small market gardeners and a few orchards. Does anyone have experience with offering front door delivery? I'd be curious. Another change we're considering for next season is offering a way for people to adjust quantities of different produce in their weekly baskets. One of the most frequently heard complaints from members is that they do not want so much of a certain veggie or want more of something else. We have a very substantial business at the local farmers' markets, and we have the pick up of CSA shares at the lighter day of markets, on Tuesday. We've considered offering shares that include a book of coupons for produce from our stand at the market, and a smaller share of veggies selected by us. This way, members still pay up front which is very important for us because CSA memberships make the payroll in the early Spring. Then they get a basket of mainly things that everyone tells us they want, carrots, lettuce. onions, garlic, potatoes, cukes, etc. And those who want lots of hot peppers, or basil, or melons, or whatever can pick them off the stand and pay with their coupons. Has anyone experimented with a system such as this? We have some concern that the most popular items with CSA members would also be the most popular for sale at the market, and that might cut into sales a little. On the other hand, I think it would enable us to retain more members and keep them happier. Take it easy everyone, Stef Fuegi From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 13:36:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA22387 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09175; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:36:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09091 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:35:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from 206.169.243.90 ([206.169.243.90]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA22660; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:35:26 -0600 Message-ID: <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 08:52:05 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 873 Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great info! Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at our farm. We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery depending on whats easiest for them. We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as whats available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When we cant fill a customers order, we tell them about sheep farmers we respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; and so on. We see this as part of our education mission. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 15:04:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25825 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA17601; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:04:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17420 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:03:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from [165.247.61.84] (user-2ivefak.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.61.84]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12798 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:03:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: sueandersen@pop.igc.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:12:13 -0400 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Sue Andersen Subject: A farmer-to-farmer question about income/share price Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 874 My CSA is in the process of deciding how much to charge for next year's shares. I'd appreciate knowing: 1) How much do you charge for your share? ($ plus work requirement) 2) How much produce is in your share? (In my experience, it's hard to compare different farm's shares. That said, maybe tell me "How many people, in general, your share feeds" or "In dollar terms, how much you distribute"). 3) If you feel comfortable telling me, how much farmers/employees earn at your farm? Any retirement money? 4) Where you farm, whether you own or rent, and anything else that you think is relevant. 5) If it's OK to share the above info. with other interested folks. Here's info. about me and my farm: 1) $500 + $5/household membership fee + 8 hours/share work requirement 2) Most shares are split between 2 households. Based on surveys that were returned, the average # of people eating a share was: 4.11 adults and 1.48 kids. (My intent has been to size the share for either a couple with 2 kids who eat some meat, 4 single adults who eat out some, or 2 adults who are devoted vegetarians and mostly eat at home.) For my own purposes, I totalled the dollar value of the share at $510 in somewhat above conventional prices. 3) I run an 80 share CSA largely by myself (I hired about $700 in help last season). My pre-tax income for this year will be about $20,700. For the first time, I will probably put $2,000 into an IRA out of my income this year. (FYI-included in the expense budget was $5,000 capitalization, $2,350 health insurance, $2,300 loan repayment). 4) suburban Boston on rented land. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 16:36:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28080 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26848; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:36:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26724 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:35:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-239-216.s216.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.216] helo=hj7fk) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11voju-0004OO-00 for CSA-L@prairienet.org; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:35:10 -0500 Message-ID: <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:35:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 875 Folks, The discussion has been great, very informative. Thank you to everyone who's participated. Some of you farmers have explained what you know best: why it's hard for you to get bigger, or why you don't want to. But what about the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, though some have suggested that farmers could increase the demand by doing things a bit differently, but not as much. Anybody care to have a go at this, that hasn't already? Of if you already have, care to add anything? How would things have to change to make the size of the market bigger: more farmers supplying more customers, and making ends meet? Is it just about increasing demand? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great info! Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at our farm. We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery depending on what's easiest for them. We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as what's available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When we can't fill a customer's order, we tell them about sheep farmers we respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; and so on. We see this as part of our "education" mission. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 17:43:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29641 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03123; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:43:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29155 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:00:58 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:00:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912082200.QAA29155@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 19721 invoked from network); 8 Dec 1999 22:00:48 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-145.iquest.net (209.43.47.145) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 8 Dec 1999 22:00:48 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: glenn@smallfarms.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 876 I save everything. I was just thinking about saving all of this is a file and linking it to the OFMA site. GOOD info and inspiration! Just wish I had more time to respond to it all! At 08:52 AM 12/8/99 -1000, Glenn wrote: >Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great >info! > >Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. > >We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, >wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries >are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles >away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at >our farm. > >We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our >customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago >when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute >changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask >our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay >for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery >depending on what's easiest for them. > >We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the >opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as what's >available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, >yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When >we can't fill a customer's order, we tell them about sheep farmers we >respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; >and so on. We see this as part of our "education" mission. > >glenn >Buy from the Farmer >http://www.smallfarms.com > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 17:43:33 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29656 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03208; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:43:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f37.hotmail.com [216.32.181.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00473 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:17:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 27113 invoked by uid 0); 8 Dec 1999 22:16:34 -0000 Message-ID: <19991208221634.27112.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:16:34 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:16:34 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 877 Hi, y'all -- I'm back! In a hurry, so this might be a bit disjointed. IMNSHO the only reason that CSA isn't bigger is that most of us are busy out there Doing It rather than Advertising It. People have been conditioned for about 50 years now not to pay attention to anything that isn't glitzed and glamoured on TV. Our CSA is as all-inclusive as we can make it. We have customers who wander by at the farmer's market just because they got the freebie state WIC coupons and this is the only place they can be spent. They don't know until we tell them that a carrot can be eaten raw. Speaking to somebody who cooks -- much less, to somebody who has seen the food growing (or has taken part in that growing) is about as exotic an experience as some of our customers could stand, at least at this point in their development as informed consumers. Some of our members are deeply committed vegan horticulturists who intentionally live in poverty so that they won't be contributing to the war machine by paying taxes. I freely admit that they challenge me constantly and make my brain tired, but I couldn't imagine my life without them. It takes everybody to make a world, and it takes everybody to make a CSA that reflects the diversity of its world. Our membership goal for Y2K is 2,000 memberships. Of course, we offer those memberships at $25 each -- a lot lower than most CSAs. Participation in farm life and work is encouraged but is not required, and each piece of the farm is presented as its own cooperative, worker-owned business, or not-for-profit program all under the umbrella of "Ash Grove Community Farm". What most folks think of as a "CSA" is what we call our "Organic Garden Co-op" with 10-week $10 shares for $100 and 20-week $20 shares for $200. We have drop-off sites in town and offer a picked-while-you-wait option at the farm. Can't get any fresher than that! Our vision is one of a world where water and soil are preserved and protected by networks of small organic farms owned by the community and accessible to anyone who wants to learn or practice sustainable agriculture. Our mission is to start with one community-owned and supported farm (this one) to be used as a model by people who farm and by people who eat. Our immediate objective is to create a not-for-profit organization to oversee the growth and development of this and other community farms along the Chemung River so that they are operated in the best interests of the community (i.e., Planet Earth). Our five-year objective is to raise the funds to purchase this farm and at least two others along the Tioga or Chemung Rivers. Farms can be leased by organic farmers or gardening cooperatives. Everything about a farm is marketable, including the cluck of the chicken. And to survive, we farmers might just have to figure out how to market that cluck. We're totally brilliant. We can do it. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm website will be back up by Christmas, I hope..... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 8 17:43:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29668 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03287; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:43:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f35.hotmail.com [216.32.181.35]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01363 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:29:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 28804 invoked by uid 0); 8 Dec 1999 22:29:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19991208222901.28803.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 14:28:56 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: A farmer-to-farmer question about income/share price Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:28:56 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 878 Part of our mission is economic sustainability, we we are committed to providing organic produce at supermarket prices. Part of my job as Facilitator is to stay aware of current prices at Wegman's and Food Mart and make sure that our prices don't exceed theirs. Our customers can order specific items up to their $10 prepaid credit limit a week ahead, or they can get more food if they accept "farmer's choice" baskets. I found great plastic laundry baskets at the Dollar Store -- it's really impressive when they're loaded to the brim for a $10 share of greens and other goodies. Anybody who wants more than $10-worth in any one week just pays the difference with cash or check. Work is not required. We offer garden, market, and other work opportunities and all workers are automatically members of the market garden worker-owned business. People with physical limitations have jobs designed to suit their abilities. Their time is credited toward a share of the profits calculated at the end of the season. Most of our workers use this as a Christmas Club, or apply one year's profit share to their next season's co-op share. Workers' hours are counted the same whether they are 88 or 8 years old. Did I mention that we're changing the world? Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:05:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14758 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12587; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:05:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from mailhost.chi.ameritech.net (mpdr0.chicago.il.ameritech.net [206.141.239.142]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03394 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:44:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from ameritech.net ([199.179.184.20]) by mailhost.chi.ameritech.net (InterMail v4.01.01.07 201-229-111-110) with ESMTP id <19991208224347.DNPY25442.mailhost.chi.ameritech.net@ameritech.net>; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:43:47 -0600 Message-ID: <384985E6.16ADF843@ameritech.net> Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 15:21:42 -0600 From: jeff uhlig X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-AIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Austin CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 879 I beleive the simple nature of farming is the limiting factor. I have a sixteen acre farm here in northern Illinois. We started with 23 families in 98' went to 44 in 99' and already have 70 ready for next year. We have a menu of options for our customers:our veggies and eggs, local sources for beef, pork, chicken, turkey and an orchard for apples and cider. Things are expanding but I cannot offer a winter alternative to the supermarket. So those who subscribe with us do so with mixed emotions. However, for me the limiting factor will be the number of families I feel I can support without becomming a manager and not a farmer(125). To learn more about my place checkout our website at: www.buffrockfarm.com. Jim Austin wrote: > > Folks, > > The discussion has been great, very informative. Thank you to everyone who's > participated. Some of you farmers have explained what you know best: why > it's hard for you to get bigger, or why you don't want to. But what about > the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some > discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, > though some have suggested that farmers could increase the demand by doing > things a bit differently, but not as much. Anybody care to have a go at > this, that hasn't already? Of if you already have, care to add anything? How > would things have to change to make the size of the market bigger: more > farmers supplying more customers, and making ends meet? Is it just about > increasing demand? > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:52 PM > Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great > info! > > Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. > > We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, > wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries > are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles > away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at > our farm. > > We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our > customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago > when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute > changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask > our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay > for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery > depending on what's easiest for them. > > We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the > opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as what's > available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, > yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When > we can't fill a customer's order, we tell them about sheep farmers we > respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; > and so on. We see this as part of our "education" mission. > > glenn > Buy from the Farmer > http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:06:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14784 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12708; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:06:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18843 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:22:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-24.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.24]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07349; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:22:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002001bf41f4$ad889ba0$18f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Jim Austin" , References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:22:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 880 Jim and list, I will comments with basically anecdotal observation of my surrounding area, and my experience as a farmer. I do think that there are more potential members "out there" than there are farmers running CSA. Why? 1. Its is very hard physical work, long hours, and at least at the beginning (I am optimistic it will improve) low pay. 2. In suburban/urban areas in which CSA may find a successful niche land is unavailable. By unavailable I mean actually not there, well there but under a building. Or if a spot remains open the cost would be very prohibitive for a farmer. 3. Where land may be affordable away from high populations those farmers may have found a different type of marketing works best for them, ie transportation to a population center would be required so maybe its just as or easier to do farmer's markets or sell to restaurants etc 4. CSA is not just farming, its smooshing. Very close contact to one's members/customers. That does not appeal to everyone. A fabulously talented farmer may wish to stay just that and ship his/her product to a wholesaler. We are taking an agbusiness class and last night we went around the room and introduce ourselves and our business. I have to say it was fun, we tended to get a bit sidetracked in a chatty shop talk sort of way, our concerns are basically the same. One of the biggest concerns, land. Two people mentioned their farms had been in the same families for in excess of 250 years. One fellow said do you want to be the generation that sells out? Very poignant. Our farm has been a farm also for 250+ years (although we are the "second" owners). One fellow said he was fortunate to be able to buy a larger farm, however ONLY because it was (already I believe before his purchase) in APR (the development rights sold to the state). He said APR has its drawbacks but its the only way he could afford land in Central Massachusetts. So Jim I have rambled on here,but it's so so very much more than till up land and plant seeds and wait for the hoards of customers wanting fresh garden veggies. Beth enjoying winter (however also enjoying reading seed catalogues) Jim wrote: > The discussion has been great, very informative. Thank you to everyone who's > participated. Some of you farmers have explained what you know best: why > it's hard for you to get bigger, or why you don't want to. But what about > the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some > discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, > though some have suggested that farmers could increase the demand by doing > things a bit differently, but not as much. Anybody care to have a go at > this, that hasn't already? Of if you already have, care to add anything? How > would things have to change to make the size of the market bigger: more > farmers supplying more customers, and making ends meet? Is it just about > increasing demand? > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:52 PM > Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > > Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great > info! > > Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. > > We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, > wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries > are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles > away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at > our farm. > > We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our > customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago > when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute > changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask > our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay > for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery > depending on what's easiest for them. > > We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the > opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as what's > available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, > yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When > we can't fill a customer's order, we tell them about sheep farmers we > respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; > and so on. We see this as part of our "education" mission. > > glenn > Buy from the Farmer > http://www.smallfarms.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:06:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14794 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12776; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:06:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from rmx08.globecomm.net (rmx08.iname.net [165.251.8.85]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA19541 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:33:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from web11.mail.com by rmx08.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA26861 ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:33:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384281785.944703221879.JavaMail.root@web11.mail.com> Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:33:41 -0500 (EST) From: Dan James To: CSA list Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.136.3.12 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 881 ------Original Message------ From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) the problem is that people think it is not convenient-that is why the golden arches has line-ups, that drive-thru banks are now a reality & that cost-co type places are springing up all over canada. nobody believes in being good to themselves anymore, just quick & in plastic all too often-that's is what we hear a lot of quick, all in one place, easy-wow, if the families of 100 years ago could see how far we haven't progressed :( zone 5 ontario Art, wasn't that your email I just read about wanting to start a resturant CSA (CSR). Seems it would be the perfect answer to the above comment. I'm just as guilty as the other two hundred million americans. I just love the taste of a ripe tomatoe or fresh picked salad fixin's but I'll run thru the drive in and get a value meal because I can eat it driving down the road (I'm secretly trying to figure out how to sue McD's for burning my lips on hot fries..yuk,yuk), but seriously I think you could make it work. And what's more, I think you could get the whole "group" (the list) to collaborate on it. While the fast food franchises do make a killing, so do the health food stores and health spa's. More and more people are health consious than they were ten, fifteen years ago. What a project!! I know I'm new to the list and I don't even have a farm. I'm one of them (gasp!) wanna-be's. But I think it's a good idea. ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:06:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14810 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12849; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:06:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA20468 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:48:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-24.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.24]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19652; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:32:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002c01bf41f6$14376c40$18f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Dori Green" , References: <19991208221634.27112.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:32:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 882 > Dori wrote: Everything about a farm is marketable, including the cluck of the chicken. > And to survive, we farmers might just have to figure out how to market that > cluck. > > We're totally brilliant. We can do it. > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm > website will be back up by Christmas, I hope..... Dori first I'd like to say welcome back, I was just thinking about you the other day. I was worried about you. I know in the summer its very hard to write but it Dec. and you hadn't returned. I love the above paragragh and could not agree more. I am however still working on my brilliance haven't quite figured out how to make a cluck profitable. I did put Christmas lights on the chicken coop. I'll discuss a business plan with the flock tomorrow :) Welcome back, Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:06:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14826 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA12942; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:06:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (f101.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.101]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28375 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:09:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 2205 invoked by uid 0); 9 Dec 1999 03:08:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19991209030857.2204.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 63.28.15.89 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 08 Dec 1999 19:08:56 PST X-Originating-IP: [63.28.15.89] From: "Phillip Herbert" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: cancel Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:08:56 CST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 883 Cancel email list on my email now! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:07:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14838 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13026; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:07:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from post1.fast.net (post1.fast.net [198.69.204.13]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02630 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:53:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from gregbowm (maxtnt04-abe-51.fast.net [209.92.9.51]) by post1.fast.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA16997; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:53:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384F2828.676C@fast.net> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 22:55:20 -0500 From: Greg Bowman Reply-To: gbowman@fast.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: glenn@smallfarms.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 884 RE: Saving the thread Glenn- I'm saving and editing most of this thread as a grass-roots, farmer-to-farmer primer. CSA is not yet well known in the farm community of Montgomery County, Pa. (first conventionally farmable land NW of Philly) I want to present the "ideal" of CSA as economic/cultural transformation as well as the daunting practical challenges of production, people and planning. I'm in conversation with our local Extension, land preservation and business folks who are ready to do serious work to keep farming viable, profitable and respected. The task is to identify the new ways agriculture will work here before McMansions cover the countryside as the "best and highest use" for cash-strapped farm families. -- Greg PS: Yes, and I also have "Sharing the Harvest" (Henderson with Van En) as a more formal text. -- Greg Bowman --Indian Creek Community Farm, Harleysville, Pa. --Food, Faith & Farming Initiative of the Mennonite Resources Network, Souderton, Pa. P.O. Box 490 (504 Main St.) Bally PA 19503 610.845.2436 Communicating for whole farms...for whole communities...for the whole world. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:07:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14849 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13100; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:07:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA10452 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:43:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 17593 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 04:42:17 -0000 Received: from i48-22-16.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.7.80) (216.26.7.80) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 04:42:17 -0000 Message-ID: <384F2504.B80@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:42:05 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Diana Chesterfield CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA References: <199911270624.WAA25852@wolfenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 885 We rotate our beds on a 3 year rotation - grow, grow, rest (in green manure cover crop). Works great. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:07:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14859 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13177; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:07:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA13631 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:33:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 28891 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 05:32:48 -0000 Received: from i48-22-16.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.7.80) (216.26.7.80) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 05:32:48 -0000 Message-ID: <384F30FD.D96@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:33:15 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lucy Goodman-Owsley CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: WTO Response by authoritiesSEATTLE References: <944319522.4628.483@excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 886 I find the response to the actions of the police at the WTO saddening. I lived in Berkeley in the 60s. The actions taken by the police in Seattle are typical. Not extraordinary, not even unusual - typical, common, everyday actions in virtually every police force in this country. Everyday. What is unusual is that they were taken in front of cameras and against middle-class citizens. The victims are usually marginalized people: the poor, the homeless, the unemployed. It is sad, but what I find saddest of all is that most of us are so unaware of day-to-day activity by our local police that we find these actions suprising. The nature of police forces is to use force against selected victims. That's why we call them police forces, not the police assistance society. They serve those in power, who desire to suppress challenges to that power. The police were used to suppress labor organizers in the early decades of this century (anti-american anarchists!), they were used to supress the populist movement of the 40's and 50's (populist=communist, right?), they were used to supress the free speech movement (ah, those damned commies again!), they were used to supress the the civil rights movement (now it's those fag commies!), they were used to suppress agitation against the Viet Nam war (sorry, Viet Nam police action - we never actually declared war), they are used to create and carry out the war on drugs (but only in inner cities, though most illigal drugs are used in suburbs). But remember that they are us. We are all in this together. The police think they are doing the right thing. We need to rehabilitate those of us who are police (just like we need to rehabilitate those of us who farm with chemicals.) We rehabilitate police by rebuilding community, by localizing economies and by empowing individuals. My part of the effort to re-knot community is a CSA farm. We all do the best we can. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:07:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14884 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13247; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:07:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA14763 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:45:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 1819 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 05:44:33 -0000 Received: from i48-22-16.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.7.80) (216.26.7.80) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 05:44:33 -0000 Message-ID: <384F33BF.31F8@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 21:45:02 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SCook21809@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Off subject? References: <0.487a3400.257c2d0c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 887 To all who question whether WTO action is appropriate for this list: If you do not see the implications of the WTO for CSA let me state this - the logicl and inevitable conclusion of the WTO is the end of regulation of corporations, the end of viable seed and seed saving, the end of organics, the end of small scale farming and the end of what little free market we have. This may have a minor effect on CSAs Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:08:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14899 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13324; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:08:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp3.xs4all.nl (smtp3.xs4all.nl [194.109.127.49]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA24761 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 03:42:36 -0600 (CST) From: john@strohalm.nl Received: from strohalm.nl (gateway.strohalm.nl [212.19.194.118]) by smtp3.xs4all.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14768 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:42:34 +0100 (CET) To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:42:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Message-ID: Priority: normal In-reply-to: <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> X-Hops: 1 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 888 > From: "Jim Austin" > To: > Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:35:25 -0500 > Folks, > > The discussion has been great, very informative. Thank you to everyone who's > participated. Some of you farmers have explained what you know best: why > it's hard for you to get bigger, or why you don't want to. But what about > the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some > discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, > though some have suggested that farmers could increase the demand by doing > things a bit differently, but not as much. Anybody care to have a go at > this, that hasn't already? Of if you already have, care to add anything? How > would things have to change to make the size of the market bigger: more > farmers supplying more customers, and making ends meet? Is it just about > increasing demand? > > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Glenn > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:52 PM > Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > > Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great > info! > Jim, I think your question is our challenge. As I wrote yesterday, I think the CSA movement is restricted in itself, because the concept is not attractive for more people as only the idealistic and food concious people and the people who can be attracted to be like that. We see in Holland that usually the more highly educated and concious people take part in the movement. If we are capable to make them joining a local CSA-farm, then that is a good thing for those farms and local communities. But what about the rest of the people, everybody needs to eat, isn't it!? Why is it that we are still not able to make them joining CSA? For our organisation, Strohalm, this question is a big challenge. I am thinking to start here in Utrecht a new CSA in which several farms and several local shops (including transport and distribution organisations) participate. (One of the local shops is interested in experimenting with those kind of systems.) So we then don't talk about only 1 farm with a group of people, but a bigger, but still local CSA-organisation, or a something like a federation of farms and shops/retailers and consumers. The consumers still go to the shop and get what they want as they do usually, only the production is local, the payment in advance at the moment they sign the contract in which they agree with the values, pre-conditions and so on. So the shop is in that case not a pick-up site, but an important part of the CSA-organisation. I suppose that it is in this case more easy and attractive for people to participate, because it is more in their usual daily habit of shopping and they don't need to 'offer' so much as in a 'normal' CSA. The connection between consumers and farmers can be organised as in a 'normal' CSA, with newsletter, open farm days, working shares etc. Are there experiences with those kind of organisational structures? Thanks for this discussion, it supports us in our thinking and movement! Yours sincerely, John van Soest on behalf of the Pergola-department of Stichting Aktie Strohalm Oudegracht 42 3511 AR Utrecht the Netherlands tel: +31 - (0)30 - 2 314 314 fax: +31 - (0)30 - 2 343 986 e-mail: john@strohalm.nl www.strohalm.nl/english From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 9 10:08:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14915 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA13402; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:08:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02437 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:06:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-36.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.36]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11559 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:06:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001401bf425f$61da8360$24f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: Subject: Why isn't CSA bigger Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:06:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF421C.52785AC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 889 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF421C.52785AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Dori wrote: Everything about a farm is marketable, including the cluck of the = chicken. > And to survive, we farmers might just have to figure out how to market that > cluck. > > We're totally brilliant. We can do it. > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm > website will be back up by Christmas, I hope..... Dori first I'd like to say welcome back, I was just thinking about you = the other day. I was worried about you. I know in the summer its very hard = to write but it Dec. and you hadn't returned. I love the above paragragh = and could not agree more. I am however still working on my brilliance = haven't quite figured out how to make a cluck profitable. I did put Christmas lights on the chicken coop. I'll discuss a business plan with the flock tomorrow :) Welcome back, Beth ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF421C.52785AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    > Dori wrote:
    Everything about a farm is marketable, = including the=20 cluck of the chicken.
    > And to survive, we farmers might just have = to=20 figure out how to market
    that
    > cluck.
    >
    > We're = totally=20 brilliant.  We can do it.
    >
    > Dori Green
    > Ash = Grove=20 Community Farm
    > website will be back up by Christmas, I=20 hope.....

    Dori first I'd like to say welcome back, I was just = thinking=20 about you the
    other day.  I was worried about you.  I know = in the=20 summer its very hard to
    write but it Dec. and you hadn't = returned.  I=20 love the above paragragh and
    could not agree more.  I am however = still=20 working on my brilliance haven't
    quite figured out how to make a = cluck=20 profitable.  I did put Christmas
    lights on the chicken = coop.  I'll=20 discuss a business plan with the flock
    tomorrow :) Welcome back,=20 Beth

    ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BF421C.52785AC0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 03:02:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA10608 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 03:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA18427; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 02:02:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from fuji.cate.org (fuji.cate.org [205.167.174.193]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25528 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:56:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from listserv.cate.org (root@[172.17.1.3]) by fuji.cate.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12972 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cate.org ([172.17.1.2]) by listserv.cate.org (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12365 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:55:57 -0800 (PST) Message-id: Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:55:52 -0800 Subject: APR To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Brian_Collins@cate.org (Brian Collins) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 890 guldann@ix.netcom.com writes: >One fellow said he was fortunate to be able to buy a larger farm, however >ONLY because it was (already I believe before his purchase) in APR (the >development rights sold to the state). He said APR has its drawbacks but >its the only way he could afford land in Central Massachusetts. Beth, Can you or your fellow farmer say more abouts drawbacks of APR? --BC From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:20:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12463 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29030; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:18:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA26195 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:04:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:04:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912091704.LAA26195@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 6321 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 17:04:06 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-248.iquest.net (209.43.47.248) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 17:04:06 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: osalt@teleport.com From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: Off subject? Cc: SCook21809@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id LAA26196 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 891 Hi, Will and others, On or off subject, this is important for you all to know and it's not quite the same stuff. PLease email me or call if you want more info. I'll try to make this short, but it won't be--sorry: (stuff from Codex appears below) I don't know how many of you know about Codex Alimentarius (and I apologize if I have insulted anyone by saying that but I meet a lot of people who don't know about this), but it is basically the UN guidelines for food labeling. Delegates from sovereign nations and ngos get together to hash out what can be labeled this or that so that "organic" or "fish stick" means pretty much the same thing worldwide. Anyway, there is a new task force to discuss GMO labeling and they are having a *public* (unusual) meeting in DC soon. They have asked us (OFMA is part of the US delegation on organic labels and other related issues so that is why we got this. If your group wants more info on becoming part of the US delegation, or if you are an ngo, I can give the story on who and how...but it is not easy) Despite FDA and WTO talks, any GMO labels that end up getting created will go through Codex so this is all VERY important right now. Negotiations on the Codex floor will inevitably spell out what happens and those GMO-hating Japanese EU folks are not shy about what they want. This may be where we actually can bargain to get meaningful labels. That all said, please--Codex meetings are not a place to protest--they are working groups, and they want us to specifically address the issues outlined in the document below. I think we will find that when the Japan meeting occurs that the majority of the other nations are with us on this. IF the US won't listen to us, they will have to listen to the other nations and label according to what is voted in on the Codex floor. None of this happens overnight--but this is the very beginning and it is good to be able to get in on the ground floor. If we want them to take use seriously we will provide them with informed, SUBSTANTIVE comment that is on topic. I urge you to read the following and submit comment, and if any of you are going to be in DC then, please contact me about getting into the meeting. It wasn't easy for us to get involved in the actual meetings, but it can be done. I will make OFMA's (and my) comments available as soon as we have them written. BTW, the US reps to Codex include Keith Jones of the National Organic Program, L. Robert Lake (who was on the FDA Panel in Chicago) and someone from EPA (there's a new person whose name escapes me). NGOs include RAFI and IFOAM. OFMA sits with the US delegation--usually near Keith. There are others. So far OFMA's attendance has been hampered by the fact that we are organic farmers and therefore POOR. Every time we have sent someone it has been on their own dime--and these trips are expensive. So if any of you want to assist us in getting a real organic farmer to the hearing or meetings we sure could use some financial assistance. OR if someone will be there I can help find cheap lodging, meals and such--DC is an expensive place to visit if you don't know your way around... I strongly feel that in this venue being part of this process will help us a lot more than emotional statements against GMO's. IF we could come up with a combined statement that a large group agreed upon it would be very powerful indeed. Thanks for your patience on all of this. ******************************************** DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES Public Health Service Food and Drug Administration Washington, DC 20204 24 November, 1999 Dear Codex Biotechnology Task Force Interested Party: As you know, the Codex Alimentarius Commission, at its' 23rd (1999) Session, established an Ad Hoc Intergovernmental Task Force on Food Derived From Biotechnology. The Task Force is charged with elaborating standards, guidelines or other principles, as appropriate, for foods derived from biotechnology. The first Session of Task Force is scheduled for March 14 17, 2000 in Chiba (Tokyo area) Japan. Attached is the provisional agenda for the meeting (CX/FBT 00/1). You can note that agenda item 4 will involve a discussion on the "Elaboration of Standards, Guidelines or other Principles for Foods Derived from Biotechnology". To more fully develop this agenda item in preparation for the First Session, the Codex Rome Secretariat has issued Circular Letter CL 1 999/27 FBT. A copy of this Circular Letter is attached. The CL states that discussions under Agenda Item 4 will be facilitated by Discussion or Information papers submitted by governments and organizations on the following subjects: Identification of areas of work of the Task Force; Work priorities; Key concepts and definitions; Core principles of risk assessment, risk management and risk communication; Collection, dissemination and exchange of information; National and regional experiences The timeframe for responding to the CL is short with a due date of 20 December, 1999. In order to receive input from interested parties, prior to responding to the CL, we are scheduling a public meeting for 9:00 am noon, December 15, 1999 in Room 1409 of the FDA Building, 200 C St. SW, Washington, D.C. Because of the very short time frame, the U.S. will be preparing a draft response that will be shared with interested parties at this meeting. We will review our proposed response with you, invite your comments on it, and receive additional comments you may have on each of the above bullet points. Because of the short time between the public meeting and the December 20 due date for the CL, it is unlikely that time will remain after the meeting to receive written comments. We suggest, therefore, that it would be helpful to have your written comments on the above points provided to us before or at the time of the meeting with any supplemental comments provided by email within 24 hours of the public meeting. Written comments in advance of the public meeting can be provided to: Dr. H. Michael Wehr Of fice of Constituent Operations Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition U.S. Food and Drug Administration HFS 550 200 C St. SW Washington, D.C. 20250 Phone: (202)260 2786 FAX: (202)205 0165 Email: MWehr@cfsan.fda.gov Additionally, if you have an interest in serving on the U.S. Delegation to the First Session of the Ad Hoc Intergovernmental Task Force on Food Derived From Biotechnology, please advise Dr. Wehr of your interest in writing (letter, FAX, email). Thank you for your interest in the work of the Codex Ad Hoc Intergovernmental Task Force on Food Derived From Biotechnology. L. Robert Lake, U.S. Delegate Sally McCammon, Alternate Delegate Ed Scarbrough, Manager, U.S. Codex Jim Maryanksi, CFSAN FDA Michael Wehr, CFSAN FDA codex alimentarius commission FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION JOINT OFFICE: Viale delle Tenure di Caracalla, 00100 ROME Tel. 39 (06) 57051 Telex: 625852~625853 FAO I Email: codex~fao.orB Facsimile: 39 (06) 5705.4593 Agenda Item 1 CX/FBT 00/1 November 1999 JOINT FAD/WHO FOOD STANDARDS PROGRAMME CODEX AD HOC INTERGOVERNMENTAL TASK FORCE ON FOOD DERIVED FROM BIOTECHNOLOGY First Session Chiba, Japan, 14 17 March 2000 To be held in the International Conference Hall at"Makuhari Messe", Nakase, Mihama ku, Chiba, Japan, from Tuesday 14 at 10.00 hours to Friday 17 2000 PROVISIONAL AGENDA Agenda Subject Matter Doc. Reference No. Item Opening of the Session I. Adoption of the Agenda CX/FBT 00/1 2. Matters Referred to the Task Force by the Codex Alimentarius CX/FBT 00/2 Commission and other Codex Committees 3. Review of the Work by International Organizations on the CX/FBT 00/3 Evaluation of the Safety and Nutrition Aspects of Foods Derived from Biotechnology* 4. Consideration of the Elaboration of Standards, Guidelines or other CX/FBT 00/4 principles for Foods Derived from Biotechnology* 5 Other Business, Future Work and Date and Place of Next Session 6. Adoption of the Report N.B.: The hard copies of documents marked with an asterisk will be distributed from the Japanese Codex Secretariat. Working documents as prepared will be uploaded onto the Codex Website. They can be downloaded and panted by accessing the following URL: http://wwu.fao.org/es/esn/codex Delegates are kindly requested to bring with them to the meeting all documents which have been distributed as the number of additional copies which can be made available at the meeting is limited. 2 ANNOTATION TO THE PROVISIONAL AGENDA for the First Session of the Ad Hoc Intergovernmental Task Force on Foods Derived From Biotechnology Chiba, Japan, 14 17 March 2000 Item I Adoption of the Agenda (Doe. Ref. CX/FBT 00/l): In accordance with Rule V.l of the Rules of Procedure, the first item on the Provisional Agenda shall be the adoption of the Agenda. Item 2 Matters referred to the Task Force by the Codex Alimentarius Commission and Other Codex Committees (Doe. Ref. CX/FBT 00/2): The item includes matters related to the Task Force arising from sessions of the Codex Alimentarius Commission and other Codex Committees. Item 3 Review of Work by International Organizations on the Evaluation of the Safety and Nutrition Aspects of Foods Derived From Biotechnology (Doe. Ref. CX/FBT 00/3): The Task Force is invited to take note of the results of work done and/or being done by other relevant international fore and organizations in the field of the evaluation of the safety and nutrition aspects of foods derived from biotechnology, including those works done by FAO, WHO and OECD. Item 4 Consideration of the Elaboration of Standards, Guidelines or Other Principles for Foods Derived from Biotechnology (Doc.Ref. CX/FBT 00/4): Discussion under this item will be based on discussion and information papers submitted by governments and organizations according to circular letter CL/1999/?? FBT and circulated under the reference CX/FBT 00/4. Discussion and information papers may cover: identification of areas of the work of the Task Force; work priorities; key concepts and definitions; core principles for risk assessment, risk management and risk communication; collection, dissemination and exchange of information; national and regional experiences. The Task Force will have the possibility of asking for clarification on the contents of the discussion papers from the author governments and organizations. The Task Force may wish to conduct a preliminary survey to identify areas where similarity in opinion exists among member countries and areas where a variety of opinions are still observed. The Task Force will be invited to discuss how the future work should be proceeded, including how the results of works done by other international fora could be incorporated in the Task Fork's work. Item 5 Other Business, Future Work and Date and Place of Next Session: The Task Force will be advised of the tentative dates of the next session. Item 6 Adoption of the Report: In accordance with Rule VIII of the Rules of Procedure, the Task Force shall adopt the report of its first Session based on a draft provided by the Secretariat. CL 1999/27 FBT Page 2 The first meeting of the Ad Hoc Intergovernmental Task Force on Foods Derived from Biotechnology will be held in Chiba, Japan from 14 to 17 March 2000. The provisional agenda of the first meeting, which will be distributed with the letter of invitation in due course, includes "Consideration of the Elaboration of Standards, Guidelines or Other Principles for Foods Derived from Biotechnology" under Item 4. It is expected that discussions under this item will be facilitated by discussion or information papers submitted by governments and organizations. Papers mentioned above may cover, but should not be limited to, the following points: identification of areas of the work of the Task Force; work priorities; key concepts and definitions; core principles for risk assessment, risk management and risk communication; collection, dissemination and exchange of information; national and regional experiences. The Task Force will have the possibility of asking for clarification of the contents of the submitted papers from the author governments and organizations. The Task Force may wish to conduct a preliminary survey to identify areas where similarity in opinion exists among member countries and areas where a variety of opinions are still observed. The Task Force will be invited to discuss how the future work should be proceeded, including how the results of works done by other international fore could be incorporated in the Task Force's work. Governments and international organizations are therefore invited to submit their papers and should do so in writing, preferably by sending an email, to addressees as indicated above not later than 20 December 1999. ******************************************************** At 09:45 PM 12/8/99 -0700, Will Newman II wrote: >To all who question whether WTO action is appropriate for this list: > >If you do not see the implications of the WTO for CSA let me state this >- the logicl and inevitable conclusion of the WTO is the end of >regulation of corporations, the end of viable seed and seed saving, the >end of organics, the end of small scale farming and the end of what >little free market we have. > >This may have a minor effect on CSAs > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust >North Willamette Valley, Oregon >www.osalt.org > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:20:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12475 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29117; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:19:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA28115 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:29:47 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:29:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199912091729.LAA28115@firefly.prairienet.org> Received: (qmail 11163 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 17:29:45 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as000-248.iquest.net (209.43.47.248) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 17:29:45 -0000 X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Hook Family" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Cluck Marketing Cc: "Dori Green" , Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 892 This brings me back to a childhood vacation where my parents took us to some park that had ducks in a pen. For a quarter you got a little cup of food to give the ducks. I saw the same thing at some park in NM about 5 years ago--prairie dogs and a little machine that gave you a bit of food for a quarter. I admit that both times I literally "bought" the gimmick--and enjoyed it. Let's see, a bag of chicken feed is $7 or $8. Dole it out by the 1/4 cup for a dime or quarter, the chickens eat and cluck and you should be able to turn a profit--or at least get feed paid for. Our chickens love buckwheat and it is even cheaper! I know a lady who sells eggs from hens that the local egg farm was going to kill. They look pretty pathetic--no beaks. But she gets $5.00/doz for the eggs from people who know they are saving the hens from confinement and a sure death. The hens, btw, are free as the egg farm has to pay to dispose of them anyway. They're not good for meat as they have been so poorly fed. Now that's "value added." And, though this is a bit twisted, have you seen http://www.directdoo.com ? With all the manure on our farms, maybe we could even market it creatively! OK--I'll get back to work now... At 07:32 PM 12/8/99 -0800, Hook Family wrote: >> Dori wrote: >Everything about a farm is marketable, including the cluck of the chicken. >> And to survive, we farmers might just have to figure out how to market >that >> cluck. >> >> We're totally brilliant. We can do it. >> >> Dori Green >> Ash Grove Community Farm >> website will be back up by Christmas, I hope..... > >Dori first I'd like to say welcome back, I was just thinking about you the >other day. I was worried about you. I know in the summer its very hard to >write but it Dec. and you hadn't returned. I love the above paragragh and >could not agree more. I am however still working on my brilliance haven't >quite figured out how to make a cluck profitable. I did put Christmas >lights on the chicken coop. I'll discuss a business plan with the flock >tomorrow :) Welcome back, Beth > > > Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/ 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:20:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12483 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29200; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:19:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from saffron.propagation.net (saffron.propagation.net [216.221.160.23]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00503 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:02:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from 206.169.243.87 ([206.169.243.87]) by saffron.propagation.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA19917; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:02:21 -0600 Message-ID: <384FF296.5FCA@smallfarms.com> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 08:19:03 -1000 From: Glenn Reply-To: glenn@smallfarms.com Organization: smallfarms.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Austin CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 893 Hi Jim and farmers, > But what about > the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some > discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, Jim, I have no solid data to support disagreement, but I disagree. Some of the info I recall off hand says the 23% - 53% of consumers are looking for alternatives in their current food suppliers. CSAs grew and are developing as farmer based initiatives. At least part of the significant percentages cited haven't even heard of CSA as CSA farmers and organizations don't have the clout in dollars or visibility to say to the consumers, "Here we are with the best food you can find!" Also, in in a previous discussion and this one, some of the farmers indicated that they're fully subscribed. They're turning customers away! I've turned customers down, and it makes my skin crawl when I do this. Would over subscription speak to your question on demand, Jim? Farmers, talk to him. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:21:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12491 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29287; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:19:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05937 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:17:09 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id u.0.9bd026f5 (3702); Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:16:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.9bd026f5.25815a11@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:16:33 EST Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? To: guldann@ix.netcom.com, dorigreen00@hotmail.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 894 Dear Dori et al, Here's my idea! Make cassettes and market them as New Age tapes -- not to put you to sleep but to wake you up and make you feel as chipper as the Little Red Hen of storybook fame! (Well, then, I'll do it myself!) Cheers, and welcome back!~ Sue In a message dated 12/09/1999 11:06:56 AM, guldann@ix.netcom.com writes: << > Dori wrote: Everything about a farm is marketable, including the cluck of the chicken. > And to survive, we farmers might just have to figure out how to market that > cluck. > > We're totally brilliant. We can do it. > > Dori Green > Ash Grove Community Farm > website will be back up by Christmas, I hope..... Dori first I'd like to say welcome back, I was just thinking about you the other day. I was worried about you. I know in the summer its very hard to write but it Dec. and you hadn't returned. I love the above paragragh and could not agree more. I am however still working on my brilliance haven't quite figured out how to make a cluck profitable. I did put Christmas lights on the chicken coop. I'll discuss a business plan with the flock tomorrow :) Welcome back, Beth >> From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:21:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12499 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29377; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:20:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d05.mx.aol.com (imo-d05.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16602 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:36:15 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo-d05.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id 2.0.6c07da8d (4454); Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.6c07da8d.25817a8b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:35:07 EST Subject: Re: Off subject? To: osalt@teleport.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 895 Yes Will, CSAs will be affected by WTO. If you ask any Biologist monitoring life on the planet they will tell you we are entering a period of "mass extinction". Loss of habitat and degradation of the environment is quickly decreasing the diversity of life forms that live in, on and above the earth. From my own experience as a health care provider I have seen the life time incidence of cancer skyrocket from 1 in 8; to 1 in 2; in less than 25 years. In the next decade there won't be any question about if you will have a cancer diagnosis. Rather, will you notice your cancers in time for treatment? Add to this the genesis of an Evil Empire euphemistically called free trade and boy do we have a problem. Does racing for the cure give us time to observe the causes and take action to prevent them? Does fighting an unsustainable system give us resources to create a sustainable alternative? I believe we need to focus on filling the glass the rest of the way rather than grapple with the gross exteriors of who is responsible for partially emptying it. We all deny culpability. On closer inspection of the hand I use to point a finger at someone else I always find three fingers pointing back at me. "We have met the enemy...and he is us." I need to learn to save seed better. I need to teach more people about composting and growing more food on less land. I need to find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. Most of all I need to learn to interact and cooperate with my neighbors toward common goals. How do I want to spend the rest of my life? Because now is the only promise I have. Focus! Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:21:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12507 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29453; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:20:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from haywire.csuhayward.edu (haywire.csuhayward.edu [134.154.5.50]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21112 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:36:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (jquinter@localhost) by haywire.csuhayward.edu (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11132; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:36:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:36:33 -0800 (PST) From: JOHN QUINTERO To: Lisa Preschel-Quinn cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: out in the sticks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 896 Hi Lisa Preschel-Quinn Please contact me--I am trying to "start" what you have succeeded in doing but in urban Hayward--a traditional ag area--we have to fight to turn the tides against the residential/commercial/industrial domination. Need your advice. Address-2037 E St Hayward CA 94541 510 727 9924 On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Lisa Preschel-Quinn wrote: > I am the coordinator for a nutrition education/food security project in rural Trinity county, CA. We created 2 new community gardens this year and I am researching CSA type options for keeping us going. I would like to correspond with others who may be working in a rural area since our isssues are probably quite different from you city folk. Hope this message reaches its destination; this is my first time posting. Lisa > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:21:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12515 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29531; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:20:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25035 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 12:35:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2c-221.ix.netcom.com [209.110.254.221]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26408 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:35:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007b01bf4356$8f1798c0$ddfe6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: Subject: Fw: interesting! Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:36:01 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 897 Hi List, I am forwarding this from another list. Question, I believe bio-dynamics involves using the Moon's "rhythms" will this have any agricultural implications? I realize for many places in the world it will be cold, but also many places where it will be warm. Anyway I agreed with the original poster and thought this was interesting. Beth > Our ancestors 133 years ago saw this. Our descendants 100 or so years > from > now > will see this again. > > > This year will be the first full moon to occur on the winter solstice, > Dec. > 22, > commonly called the first day of winter. Since a full moon on the > winter > solstice occurred in conjunction with a lunar perigee (point in the > moon's > orbit > that is closest to Earth) The moon will appear about 14% larger than it > does at > apogee (the point in it's elliptical orbit that is farthest from the > Earth) > since the Earth is also several million miles closer to the sun at this > time > of > the year than in the summer, sunlight striking the moon is about 7% > stronger > making it brighter. Also, this will be the closest perigee of the Moon > of > the > year since the moon's orbit is constantly deforming. If the weather is > clear > and there is a snow cover where you live, it is believed that even car > headlights will be superfluous. > On December 21st. 1866 the Lakota Sioux took advantage of this > combination > of > occurrences and staged a devastating retaliatory ambush on soldiers in > the > Wyoming Territory. > In laymen's terms it will be a super bright full moon, much more than > the > usual > AND it hasn't happened this way for 133 years! > Our ancestors 133 years ago saw this. Our descendants 100 or so years > from > now > will see this again. > I hope someone else might find this interesting! Remember this will > happen > December 22, 1999..... > Enjoy your moon. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:22:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12523 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29620; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:20:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from rmx05.globecomm.net (rmx05.iname.net [165.251.8.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA15898 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:59:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from web12.mail.com by rmx05.globecomm.net (8.9.1/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA08205 ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:15:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <380766206.944802918447.JavaMail.root@web12.mail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:15:18 -0500 (EST) From: Dan James To: CSA list Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.136.3.47 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 898 ------Original Message------ From: "Jim Austin" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sent: December 8, 1999 9:35:25 PM GMT Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Folks, The discussion has been great, very informative. Thank you to everyone who's participated. Some of you farmers have explained what you know best: why it's hard for you to get bigger, or why you don't want to. But what about the other way for CSA to get bigger: more CSA farmers? There has been some discussion of this. Seems to me it mostly boils down to insufficient demand, though some have suggested that farmers could increase the demand by doing things a bit differently, but not as much. Anybody care to have a go at this, that hasn't already? Of if you already have, care to add anything? How would things have to change to make the size of the market bigger: more farmers supplying more customers, and making ends meet? Is it just about increasing demand? Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Glenn To: Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Do we have archives for this list? Is anyone saving this thread? Great info! Farmer hat on. Re: Deliveries. We deliver to about half of our customers. After custom cutting, wrapping, freezing, and boxing at a certified slaughterhouse, deliveries are made to door steps or offices in two towns fifty to sixty miles away. The other half of our lamb/sheep/mutton orders are picked up at our farm. We see deliveries as the old fashioned way of providing service to our customers like peddlers and mom and pop grocery stores did years ago when I was a kid. Of course, cell phones help a lot with last minute changes like customers being at the office rather than at home. We ask our new customers who are placing orders without referrals to pre pay for their lambs. Regular customers pay us by mail or upon delivery depending on what's easiest for them. We always attach a note or business card to the boxes. If we have the opportunity, we talk with customers about our lambs as well as what's available through other farmers in the area, like the super sweet, yellow fleshed melons Charlotte had in her gift baskets recently. When we can't fill a customer's order, we tell them about sheep farmers we respect often giving phone numbers; why we feel they grow good stuff; and so on. We see this as part of our "education" mission. glenn Buy from the Farmer http://www.smallfarms.com Isn't this great!? Can everyone imagine trying to do this by snail-mail. What farmer twenty years ago would have thought a computer would help him/her do their farmin' dan ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 07:22:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA12532 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA29701; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:21:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA28958 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:18:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-99.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.99]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA24721; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:18:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000901bf43ea$ffc25f80$63f96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , "Brian Collins" References: Subject: Re: APR Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:17:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 899 Hi Brian and list, I would only be speculating but what I have "heard" is. My husband had a student last year (he's a teacher as well as farmer) who's families orchard was in APR. Has been for say 5-15 years. His father was in a group of fellow APR to discuss the problems, I really don't know what the problems were but something about the terms of the original contract being changed by the state. My fellow class mate did not embellish but if we get the chance we'll ask him. Beth > guldann@ix.netcom.com writes: > >One fellow said he was fortunate to be able to buy a larger farm, however > >ONLY because it was (already I believe before his purchase) in APR (the > >development rights sold to the state). He said APR has its drawbacks but > >its the only way he could afford land in Central Massachusetts. > > Beth, > > Can you or your fellow farmer say more abouts drawbacks of APR? > > --BC > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 08:58:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA12966 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA05629; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:56:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA05548 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 07:56:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-250.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.250]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15876; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:56:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004701bf43f8$acb72f60$63f96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , "Jim Austin" Cc: References: <384E970B.28648B14@gilanet.com> <384EA8D5.5DCB@smallfarms.com> <005801bf41c4$265ba940$70f03ad0@hj7fk> <384FF296.5FCA@smallfarms.com> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? (long) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:55:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 900 Hi list, Glenn wrote: > Jim, I have no solid data to support disagreement, but I disagree. Some > of the info I recall off hand says the 23% - 53% of consumers are > looking for alternatives in their current food suppliers. CSAs grew and > are developing as farmer based initiatives. At least part of the > significant percentages cited haven't even heard of CSA as CSA farmers > and organizations don't have the clout in dollars or visibility to say > to the consumers, "Here we are with the best food you can find!" > > Also, in in a previous discussion and this one, some of the farmers > indicated that they're fully subscribed. They're turning customers > away! I've turned customers down, and it makes my skin crawl when I do > this. > > Would over subscription speak to your question on demand, Jim? Farmers, > talk to him. I will speak :). First Glenn if you can find documentation of the above 23%-53% of consumer would like a change I'd love it, for my agbusiness class we are supposed to "prove" our ventures will be sucessful. Ok in the 1999 growing season we turned away approx.10, it would conceivably been higher had we advertised longer and broader (area). This year 2000 will not be the greatest test because I am purposely "not" recruiting too hard. At this point I have approz. 25 deposit checks, and close to 10 flyers out there floating around. So that would be 35 members. We had 37 last year. And due to other responsibilities (build a barn for future business growth) this year I think a holding pattern is what we need so we don't burn out. "Yikes", some of you beginners are saying to me, I would have said the same thing 3 years ago when I started reading this list. Long, wonderful, interesting discussions about where to find members. I read, honestly I didn't believe it could be that easy. For the beginners, our info: 1st year '98 no advertising word of mouth to friends and aquaintances and one woman driving buy who stopped to talk about the horses in field (selling farm ambience or the cluck!) she brought in a friend. So first year 10, planted for say 20. Was a good learning experience. It also allowed us to say in 1999 oh yes this is our second year (wow experts). Second year big ad in local newspaper $800. Also in 1999 little things that I had no idea would be sucessful per say. I sent in our info to be included in the Massachusetts Dept of Food and ag flyer about CSA's. They distribute these things I think by the thousands when ever they attend some event. It is also on their Web Page (www. massgrown.org). Two people have called because of that. Early in 1999 I get a flyer: sign up for a booth at The Massachusetts Market Place. Join other producers (value added mostly) show off to buyers (1st day) and public (2nd day). Well the booth was only $150 for both days. It included a free tasting of Ma products (I enjoyed that from a wow get to taste buffalo kind of standpoint). Well I had no new members, I was getting worried we had not as yet decided to advertise I signed up. About a month later ad goes in, full. I almost did not go to the Market Place. Sean our business partner could not go with me for day one, I'd have to go ALONE. Well I dragged my 15 year old son with me (he actually had an ok time which in teenage language is hay I didn't mind being dragged to work). Sean and I went the following day. On one level we really had nothing to sell. But I now looked at it as we were CSA missionaries :). So it was fun no pressure enjoyed the events. Visited the Dept of ag booth, the worker just e-mailed me he is pretty sure he is going to join the CSA(I think I could have signed him up for '98 but we were full). Worcester reporter going around event interviewing Worc. county producers (we were really more in local suburban west of Boston). So I chit chatted with him, ya know CSA, local ag etc. Well I did not get to see the article cause we had to leave early to man our booth, one person came buy and said oh I saw you quoted in the paper. Well just a couple of weeks ago my husband comes home with a deposit check (realize this is almost 6 months later), its from one of his long time firewood customer (yeah he's a teacher, farmer, and been selling firwood for about 25 years, amazing we have 2 kids) they saw that above newspaper article. I assume already having a good relationship with my husband (delivers quality wood) and liking the idea they signed up. That same article with in a few days after it came out generated a phone call from a former student of my husband. Fellow is now early 20's married and home visiting his parents. "We read the article can we come visit" Of course, well the young couple work at a CSA in Vermont!, their parents live in our town. They would have joined then (June) we had to turn them down (realize 10 now 37 I/we were a bit paniced). They will most likely join this year I have not pinned them down. Oh yea there was another wood customer who has joined but I forget if they read it in paper or my husband just told them but they too were turned away last summer. So to you beginners take heart and unlike me believe what some of the "experts" told be a few years ago, just get NOTICED. This upcoming year I have to force myself to have a booth at our towns autumn celebration. I was so tired this year I couldn't summon the umph. But I will be so streamlined in my operation this year I won't be so tired :). What do I hope to acheive by getting a booth at the celebration, well, visibiliy really. For the CSA and the farm in general. Farm in general say: pumkins sales etc as well as saying there really is a real FARM in Shrewsbury. I hate to say it but 99% of the peope who have come to the farm in the past year or so have said Wow I did not know there was a place like this in this area usually went on to say I am glad. Well so all that rambling was to say I fully agree with Glen I think there are not some but many members out there, it is simply that the product is so hard to produce that it is difficult to supply. Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 09:27:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13127 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA07552; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:17:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07425 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:17:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-200.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.200]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA28514; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:17:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005301bf43fb$98bf7640$63f96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Jim Austin" , References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:16:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 901 Jim started the interesting thread on CSA with the following post I snipped some of it. Many of or all the farmers who have responded appear to be saying the same thing, they believe there are more members but their farm is for now at capacity and have given their reasons. My question to Jim. Are you a farmer, say one who farms and is getting research to branch into CSA. Or are you a future farmer deciding if CSA if for you? Do you have workaholic tendacies? I ask because, while my husband is the type to never sit still (I think that is a criteria for self emplyoment) I have couch potato tendacies (can you get seed pototes for those?) And I will say I am surprised with how much I like farming, vegetable growing is miraculous and I love farm animals. But I have not worked so physically hard in my entire life, although I must say I enjoy the physical benefits that are usually only achieved by attending a gym :). Thanks Beth > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's a > rather small percentage. > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? If the demand were suddenly > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to learn > about CSA. > > > And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > about those as well. > > Thanks, > > Jim Austin > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 09:59:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13330 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA11055; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:57:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f65.hotmail.com [216.32.181.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA10977 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:57:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 36110 invoked by uid 0); 11 Dec 1999 14:56:27 -0000 Message-ID: <19991211145627.36109.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:56:27 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Off subject? Water treatment systems Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:56:27 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 902 Art Biggert (SCook21809@aol.com) wrote: >I need to >find a way to biofilter my water to remove pollution. If anybody is interested, Agway (!) offers an ultraviolet treatment system that's chemical-free. I have one on my well, with a super charcoal filter ahead of the light to remove sediment and a little bit of sulfur smell. About $1200 to buy new, and it can be purchased on a rent-to-own plan for about $20 per month. Works great for me. My well is fine after one chlorine shock in 1994, needed after the guy who replaced the lightning-struck pump pulled out the 125-foot liner and laid it out in the driveway full of Muscovy ducks, then pushed it back in without disinfecting it first. Don't ever make the mistake of assuming that so-called "professionals" know what they're doing or care about your well-being. Sheesh. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 10:05:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13380 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA10323; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:50:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f267.hotmail.com [216.32.180.225]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA10251 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:50:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 43455 invoked by uid 0); 11 Dec 1999 14:49:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19991211144935.43454.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 06:49:35 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Wakeup Tapes Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 09:49:35 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 903 Sue (STannehill@aol.com) wrote: >Dear Dori et al, >Here's my idea! Make cassettes and market them as New Age tapes -- not to >put >you to sleep but to wake you up and make you feel as chipper as the Little >Red Hen of storybook fame! (Well, then, I'll do it myself!) Tapes are a great idea - when I can get the capital together to produce them with the sort of glitz and plastic wrapping that will make them appeal to today's buying audience. Q: What's the difference between a CSA seminar and a New Age Weekend? A: Oh, about five hundred dollars. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living $10 classes $20 hands-on all-day workshops $50 weekend workshops Speaker's Bureau Residential and part-time free apprenticeships Donations now being accepted to help us get our website back up. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 11:23:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14065 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16858; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:22:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f63.hotmail.com [216.32.181.63]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16758 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:22:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 89748 invoked by uid 0); 11 Dec 1999 16:21:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19991211162132.89747.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 08:21:32 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Physical Effort Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:21:32 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 904 Beth mentioned the physical effort of farming -- oh, yeah, it is! A big advantage of the CSA model is that as farmers age and/or break down, other people can take over some of the immense physical work. It's also a reality that organic agriculture uses mostly muscle in place of chemicals. So if people share with some of the effort, maybe we farmers won't be breaking down as early as we do! Seriously, I deal with a number of physical limitations including supersensitivity to sunlight, fibromyalgia, high blood pressure, and healed but "gotta be careful" leftovers from past injuries including having the ligaments of my right arm torn from the elbow joint when I was hit by a truck, broken back (twice), fractured skull, asthma from exposure to lung-destroying chemicals when I was stupid enough to work at a dry cleaner's, yadda yadda. When my knee or arm or back says slow down, I have to listen or risk weeks of not being able to move. I had a wild and reckless youth with big horses, and right now I maintain six organic garden acres without a tractor (in addition to a full-time job so that I can keep the mortgage paid). Yes I can tell you exactly when the weather is going to change. Yes I have some mornings that the effort of getting out of bed makes me cry with pain. Life goes on and I take great personal pride in arriving on time at work every single day. And I will have big horses again, but only when I also have medical insurance! Here at Ash Grove, the important things get done first -- animals eat and receive fresh clean water within a time frame upon which they can rely absolutely, and their quarters are kept clean and dry. Laundry and other washing happens also on a regular basis. Other things happen if and when I get the help I need. Right now there are about 8,000 bags of leaves that need to be emptied and piled for composting -- a couple of weekends with three or four helpers, all winter and into next spring if it's just me, and if it's just me doing the leaves don't hold your breath for the new website. Work is not a requirement of membership at Ash Grove's CSA, and I don't think it should be. I know that other CSAs do require members to participate in the operation in some way, and that's okay for them. For us, part of our mission is to make a connection with the farm possible for absolutely anyone who wants it. We _do_ offer working memberships, working harvest shares, and even working housemate and partnership options. But it's all optional, not mandatory. I refuse to be a boss. That's part of it. I consciously and intentionally step back from the world of oppression. I insist that we learn how to work together in teams, multiplying our resources by sharing them. That's another part of it. We'll only learn how to do this by doing it. Sometimes the housework goes to hell in a handbasket and I wouldn't suggest that anybody eat off of my floors. The dust is kept down to the point that even I can breathe freely, even with my asthma, and the kitchen counters are kept pretty much clear and clean so that cooks can be creative on a whim. Life goes on. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm You can live here for as little as $400 per month including utilities, satellite TV, internet connection, and even food and survival coaching from a survivor! But ya gotta put in an hour a day. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 14:52:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16165 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 14:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA04678; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:51:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04567 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:50:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <19991211194758.PXQM19682.kuku.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:47:58 -0800 Message-ID: <18486806.944941678753.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 11:47:58 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Wakeup Tapes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.126.173 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 905 > > Q: What's the difference between a CSA seminar and a New Age Weekend? > > A: Oh, about five hundred dollars. > > > > Dori Green ROTFLMAO. This reminds me of a conference i attended about a month ago. There were several CSA sessions at the conference and unlike all the other workshops where we sat in a grid pattern at everu CSA deal we sat in a circle. It was nice. > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 20:04:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18216 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14131; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:02:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA14025 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:02:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 26068 invoked from network); 12 Dec 1999 01:01:19 -0000 Received: from i48-51-37.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.10.165) (216.26.10.165) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 12 Dec 1999 01:01:19 -0000 Message-ID: <3852E5E5.21E9@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:01:52 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Pricing Commodities Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 906 And you had probably hoped I was done with my tirades: I find it sad that CSA farmers get caught up in the same traps as conventional farmers. Commodifying food and competing on price. I know of no member of any CSA who is involved because of the price.* People do not join CSA operations for cheap food. They join for philisophical reasons, health reasons, a desire to be connected to a farm, etc.** Even if we were worried about price, there is an unexamined assumption that will always bight us on the backside: food is NOT a commodity. The food we (at Community Supported Agriculture at Natural Harvest Farm) grow is not like the food you get at the local grocery store. It's not even like the food you get at the local organic food store. When you get food from us you know it was growing this morning. You know the variety was selected for flavor and nutrition. You know it has passed the "short feedback loop test": our people tell us what they like and what they don't - if the lettuce is bitter we hear about it. Today. They tell us which varieties give them energy asnd which don't. Today. And we listen, because we are connected with our Harvest Shareholders by a bond of trust - they will supply what we say we need to run the farm and the healthful, tasty, nutritious food we produce is theirs. NOBODY else does that. Sure, we do education, the farm is open to our Harvest Shareholders, we supply recipes every week, and we deliver good food to their doors every week of the year except Thanksgiving and Christmas. That's all nice, but the essence of what we do, the essence of CSA is the bond of trust - that they will provide what we need and we will give them the fruit of our labors. In bountiful years, in normal years, in bad years. They won't let us go bankrupt and we won't let them go hungry. And as rewarding as the bountiful years are, there is no feeling more rewarding as when we have come through a bad year together. We have been a CSA (and that means no markets except CSA) since 1991. Our experince since then, and in the decades before when we weren't a CSA operation, is that, out of 5 years there will be three "normal" years, one bountiful year and one bad year. As for pricing, here is something I use with my clients (for the last 20 years I have had a small business consultancy): Do you eat? Do you wash dishes? Do you wash the dishes so you can have clean dishes to eat from or do you eat so you can have dirty dishes to wash? Most people don't have trouble with those questions: we eat, we wash dishes, and we wash them so we have clean dishes to eat from. Business (and CSA is a business) is just like that. We have a product and/or service we want to provide - that's the eating. (With a CSA operation that's the food and the connection.) We charge money - that's the washing dishes - SO WE CAN KEEP PROVIDING THE PRODUCT/SERVICE. WE DO NOT PROVIDE THE FOOD SO WE CAN CHARGE THE MONEY! It is the most common mistake made in business: switching focus from the product/service to the money. We (at Natural Harvest) have consistently been the highest priced CSA operation in the area (for the last few years there have been about a dozen CSA operations in the area). We have always filled. We actually charge money to be on our waiting list (it does cost us time and postage to maintain the list and notify people when we have an opening, so we charge for it) and have to discourage people from getting on the list. When we did farmers markets we always had the highest prices in the market. Even in all-organic markets. I have, literally, sold out of 1 gallon tomato plants at $3.50 eqach when my plants were displayed 1 foot from another vendor's 1 gallon tomato plants at 2/$3.00. I use signs and display information explaining my plants' qualities: strength, open pollination, flavor, nutrition, disease resistance. I explain how to transplant and when, how to pick and when, some unusualk ways to eat the produce. I talk with people, I believe in my plants, so do my customers. I have had people come back year after year, bringing friends, and ask for specific varieties. I still run into people who ask when I'm coming back to the market. I've had a number people come back and say, "You know, I wasn't sure I belived you about how the strawberries would look as if they died for a week after I transplanted them. You told me to have patience, after the first week they would look OK, but they wouldn't seem to be growing, then the third week they would take off. Well, you know, you were absolutely right! What should I buy this year?" (We sold rooted stawberry plants for $4.50 each in 1 gallon pots - the normal price around here ranges from $5.00 to $6.00/dozen for bundled rooted cuttings.) So why all this verbage? Farming is hard work. NOBODY who works the land is overpaid. Charge what you need to, and don't apologise. Do not work for pennies because people don't value your work - educate them to value it and you can be paid what you earn. PEOPLE DO NOT BECOME INVOLVED IN CSA BECAUSE IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE, don't feel obligated to match the prices of inferior food from inferior sources, it's not what you provide. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon *Some people may NOT join because of price, which is unfortunate, but the drive to make CSAs available to everyone is part of what feeds the whole problem of agricultural workers (and that includes most farm "owners") subsidising the rest of society. If we DO want to emulate the "normal" ecenomy, remember that Ford Motor Company doesn't worry about people who can't afford a Fard, nor does Wal-Mart worry about those living on the street. Access is a serious poroblem and needs to be addressed, but the soultion won't come from breaking farmers. **Here's another exercise: think of the last five things you purchased. Did you buy any of them based on price? While at first glance you may think so, on closer examination you will probably find that was not so. In 15 years of asking that question in classes I have never found a single person who made a buying decision based on price when there was any other distinction between the choices. Challenge me - send me an e-mail with examples and I will try to respond with the unobvious decision points. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 20:39:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18399 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA16466; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:37:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA16385 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:37:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-239-30.s30.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.30] helo=hj7fk) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11wxvs-0005du-00; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:36:16 -0500 Message-ID: <000701bf4441$50249140$1eef3ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: , References: <3852E5E5.21E9@teleport.com> Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:36:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 907 Hi folks, Jim again. Just wanted to add a consumer's perspective here. When I started reading this message I didn't think I would, but I agree with it almost entirely. It's true that CSA food is not a commodity, though grocery store food pretty much is. You've got a premium product and you ought to be able to price it accordingly. This depends, of course, on how educated your market is. Of course I don't need to tell you tis. As with good wine and other things of quality, you probably can't sell a fifty-dollar Bordeau in a community that's just fine with the $2.98 Boone's farm. Of course, with wine you can always send it to New York or someplace where somebody will pay what it's worth (or more). If you farm in a Boone's farm community, though, then you've got a tough job - you've got to create the market locally before you can sell your stuff for what it's worth. You can't easily change the local economics. But with that caveat, if the market will bear it, charge what your product is worth. Here's where I'd disagree, and I think it's a pretty important point. I like CSA because it offers great food. To me this is more important than philosophy, desire to be connected to the farm,etc. I think this is iso mportant because in this respect the value of what you offer is real, it's tangible. It's not philosophical. The philosophy only means something to people who value it. Only the choir can appreciate the sermon. While I respect the abstract concepts deeply they don't translate easily into something average Joes and Jills are going to be willing to pay extra for. In my opinion, though, the good food you produce will translate just fine. Once people figure out the food you grow tastes better and makes them feel better, they'll be willing to pay more for it if they've got the money. I am. How often do you guys taste the competition? Here's a suggestion for those of you who raise good vegetables on your CSA farms: Before you price your shares, pick a night, invite your friends over, select your favorite recipes (make sure it's something that contains tomatoes), then go down to the local Safeway or Piggly Wiggly or whatever your local grocery store chain is to buy all the ingredients - especially the tomatoes. Then prepare the meal with all store-bought ingredients (slice some of those yummy grocery store tomatoes on your salad). Then decide how much more what you grow is worth. jca ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Newman II To: Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 7:01 PM Subject: Pricing Commodities > And you had probably hoped I was done with my tirades: > > I find it sad that CSA farmers get caught up in the same traps as > conventional farmers. Commodifying food and competing on price. > > I know of no member of any CSA who is involved because of the price.* > People do not join CSA operations for cheap food. They join for > philisophical reasons, health reasons, a desire to be connected to a > farm, etc.** > > Even if we were worried about price, there is an unexamined assumption > that will always bight us on the backside: food is NOT a commodity. The > food we (at Community Supported Agriculture at Natural Harvest Farm) > grow is not like the food you get at the local grocery store. It's not > even like the food you get at the local organic food store. > > When you get food from us you know it was growing this morning. You know > the variety was selected for flavor and nutrition. You know it has > passed the "short feedback loop test": our people tell us what they like > and what they don't - if the lettuce is bitter we hear about it. Today. > They tell us which varieties give them energy asnd which don't. Today. > > And we listen, because we are connected with our Harvest Shareholders by > a bond of trust - they will supply what we say we need to run the farm > and the healthful, tasty, nutritious food we produce is theirs. > > NOBODY else does that. Sure, we do education, the farm is open to our > Harvest Shareholders, we supply recipes every week, and we deliver good > food to their doors every week of the year except Thanksgiving and > Christmas. > > That's all nice, but the essence of what we do, the essence of CSA is > the bond of trust - that they will provide what we need and we will give > them the fruit of our labors. In bountiful years, in normal years, in > bad years. They won't let us go bankrupt and we won't let them go > hungry. > > And as rewarding as the bountiful years are, there is no feeling more > rewarding as when we have come through a bad year together. We have been > a CSA (and that means no markets except CSA) since 1991. Our experince > since then, and in the decades before when we weren't a CSA operation, > is that, out of 5 years there will be three "normal" years, one > bountiful year and one bad year. > > As for pricing, here is something I use with my clients (for the last 20 > years I have had a small business consultancy): Do you eat? Do you wash > dishes? Do you wash the dishes so you can have clean dishes to eat from > or do you eat so you can have dirty dishes to wash? > > Most people don't have trouble with those questions: we eat, we wash > dishes, and we wash them so we have clean dishes to eat from. > > Business (and CSA is a business) is just like that. We have a product > and/or service we want to provide - that's the eating. (With a CSA > operation that's the food and the connection.) We charge money - that's > the washing dishes - SO WE CAN KEEP PROVIDING THE PRODUCT/SERVICE. WE DO > NOT PROVIDE THE FOOD SO WE CAN CHARGE THE MONEY! It is the most common > mistake made in business: switching focus from the product/service to > the money. > > We (at Natural Harvest) have consistently been the highest priced CSA > operation in the area (for the last few years there have been about a > dozen CSA operations in the area). We have always filled. We actually > charge money to be on our waiting list (it does cost us time and postage > to maintain the list and notify people when we have an opening, so we > charge for it) and have to discourage people from getting on the list. > > When we did farmers markets we always had the highest prices in the > market. Even in all-organic markets. I have, literally, sold out of 1 > gallon tomato plants at $3.50 eqach when my plants were displayed 1 foot > from another vendor's 1 gallon tomato plants at 2/$3.00. > > I use signs and display information explaining my plants' qualities: > strength, open pollination, flavor, nutrition, disease resistance. I > explain how to transplant and when, how to pick and when, some unusualk > ways to eat the produce. I talk with people, I believe in my plants, so > do my customers. I have had people come back year after year, bringing > friends, and ask for specific varieties. I still run into people who ask > when I'm coming back to the market. > > I've had a number people come back and say, "You know, I wasn't sure I > belived you about how the strawberries would look as if they died for a > week after I transplanted them. You told me to have patience, after the > first week they would look OK, but they wouldn't seem to be growing, > then the third week they would take off. Well, you know, you were > absolutely right! What should I buy this year?" (We sold rooted > stawberry plants for $4.50 each in 1 gallon pots - the normal price > around here ranges from $5.00 to $6.00/dozen for bundled rooted > cuttings.) > > So why all this verbage? Farming is hard work. NOBODY who works the land > is overpaid. Charge what you need to, and don't apologise. Do not work > for pennies because people don't value your work - educate them to value > it and you can be paid what you earn. PEOPLE DO NOT BECOME INVOLVED IN > CSA BECAUSE IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE, don't feel obligated to match the > prices of inferior food from inferior sources, it's not what you > provide. > > Will Newman II > CSA at Natural Harvest Farm > Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust > North Willamette Valley, Oregon > > *Some people may NOT join because of price, which is unfortunate, but > the drive to make CSAs available to everyone is part of what feeds the > whole problem of agricultural workers (and that includes most farm > "owners") subsidising the rest of society. If we DO want to emulate the > "normal" ecenomy, remember that Ford Motor Company doesn't worry about > people who can't afford a Fard, nor does Wal-Mart worry about those > living on the street. Access is a serious poroblem and needs to be > addressed, but the soultion won't come from breaking farmers. > > **Here's another exercise: think of the last five things you purchased. > Did you buy any of them based on price? While at first glance you may > think so, on closer examination you will probably find that was not so. > In 15 years of asking that question in classes I have never found a > single person who made a buying decision based on price when there was > any other distinction between the choices. Challenge me - send me an > e-mail with examples and I will try to respond with the unobvious > decision points. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 11 20:55:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18472 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 20:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17439; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:54:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from email1-1 (email.mcleod.net [208.16.32.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA17370 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:54:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 13070 invoked from network); 12 Dec 1999 01:54:06 -0000 Received: from 323-a-43-94.ppp.mcleodusa.net (HELO 324-A-43-98.ppp.mcleodusa.net) (208.16.43.94) by email.mcleod.net with SMTP; 12 Dec 1999 01:54:06 -0000 Received: by 324-A-43-98.ppp.mcleodusa.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BF4411.87382640@324-A-43-98.ppp.mcleodusa.net>; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:54:26 -0000 Message-ID: <01BF4411.87382640@324-A-43-98.ppp.mcleodusa.net> From: REAP International To: "'CSA Listserv'" Subject: unsubscribe Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:54:18 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 908 Please cancel my subscription. REAP International From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 07:39:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21752 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA18384; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:37:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from main.tellink.net (root@main.tellink.net [208.3.160.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA18109 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 06:32:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from barthunte.tellink.net (pm-3-45.tellink.net [208.3.161.109]) by main.tellink.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id HAA07301 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:32:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001301bf449c$9e331cc0$6da103d0@tellink.net> From: "W. Bart Hunter" To: Subject: RE: Pricing Commodities Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:30:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 909 Hi all, I agree with Will and would like to point out that what he is talking about is the same thing I said in my last post--education, education, education--that is the key. The public in the area surrounding the CSA must be educated so that they understand why the CSA is so important. To put it another way we must learn to build communities around CSA's, not just markets. The customers should feel that they are part of a community. Jim wrote: >If you farm in a Boone's farm community, though, then >you've got a tough job - you've got to create the market locally before you >can sell your stuff for what it's worth. You can't easily change the local >economics. But with that caveat, if the market will bear it, charge what >your product is worth. This is one reason that so many of us are upset about the WTO. Many of us do live in a "Boone's farm community". We are forced to compete with farmers from all over the world who do not have to deal with OSHA, FDA, local sky high land taxes, high energy costs, and high labor cost, to name a few factors. We should be able buy the things we need to run a CSA in the local economy and sell in concert with the local economy. However, we are trying to compete on a local level with the world. Hence, as Will points out, we need to educate and make the local people understand that cheap is not always better. Bart A farm in ever community, a community around every farm. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 08:16:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21923 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA19845; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:15:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19625 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:11:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1d-196.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.196]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22492; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:11:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <007901bf44bb$9b90e280$c4fb6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Jim Austin" , , References: <3852E5E5.21E9@teleport.com> <000701bf4441$50249140$1eef3ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:11:53 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 910 Jim wrote: > Here's where I'd disagree, and I think it's a pretty important point. I like > CSA because it offers great food. To me this is more important than > philosophy, desire to be connected to the farm,etc. I think this is iso > mportant because in this respect the value of what you offer is real, it's > tangible. It's not philosophical. The philosophy only means something to > people who value it. Only the choir can appreciate the sermon. While I > respect the abstract concepts deeply they don't translate easily into > something average Joes and Jills are going to be willing to pay extra for. > In my opinion, though, the good food you produce will translate just fine. > Once people figure out the food you grow tastes better and makes them feel > better, they'll be willing to pay more for it if they've got the money. I > am. > > How often do you guys taste the competition? Here's a suggestion for those > of you who raise good vegetables on your CSA farms: Before you price your > shares, pick a night, invite your friends over, select your favorite recipes > (make sure it's something that contains tomatoes), then go down to the > local Safeway or Piggly Wiggly or whatever your local grocery store chain is > to buy all the ingredients - especially the tomatoes. Then prepare the meal > with all store-bought ingredients (slice some of those yummy grocery store > tomatoes on your salad). Then decide how much more what you grow is worth. > > jca > Jim's above message is in response to Will's message. And I am afraid that in most CSAs Jim could be right. People are buying 1st good veggies. Some never buy anything else. Will you are fortunate that your group seems to "get" it the philosophy and the product. However my members as an example: I would say the ones who signed back up for 2000 in Sept. of '99 are starting to get it. The people who are not returning could not wean themselves from the status quo of their usual food selection and method of shopping ie: go to a place (store) any day and anytime (some 24 hrs) and choose only their most favorite veggies, never anything different, and heavens never extra that could be made into pickles or frozen. Back to my "loyal" group: These are the people who continually gushed about quality, told me how they cooked it, told me it was the best whatever they'd ever had. These are the people who stayed a few minutes and made the rounds and visited the critters. One member told me (I paraphrase) that she and her husband observed how hard we worked and I believe figured out how much money we took in (36.5 X 325) and were worried we'd disappear, they'd learned to "love" us. Some CSAs appear to start with only members who get it. Most (?) I think evolve from consumers to members. And I can't imagine any survive without a quality product. I do agree with Will that we should be proud of our superior product (the whole package not just veggies) and price accordingly, but its scary fine line customers no customers. We discussed this in a class a few years ago at a NOFA conference fair pricing it was interesting. Sorry Will but some day I hope to have a farm stand as well as the CSA I think our local demographics will support both and we genuinely want to share our farm ambiance with many of our town's people (remember how I said people are so surprise to find a large working farm in our area). And our farm can not survive into the future without a financially viable business. And buy survive I mean just that remain open space. And I have told the guys(my fellow farmers) I am not going to sell cheap veggies, I am not going to be foolishly over priced but I want a reputation of a quality product not discount chain product, they argue well cheap gets 'em here well duh. But does it build up a loyal quality searching clientele? Jim I love your idea for a taste test. Thanks Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 08:25:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA21968 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20221; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:24:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19923 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 07:17:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1d-196.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.196]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09578; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:16:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008101bf44bc$698dbbe0$c4fb6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "W. Bart Hunter" , References: <001301bf449c$9e331cc0$6da103d0@tellink.net> Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 08:17:39 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 911 > > Hi all, > > I agree with Will and would like to point out that what he is talking about > is the same thing I said in my last post--education, education, > education--that is the key. The public in the area surrounding the CSA must > be educated so that they understand why the CSA is so important. To put it > another way we must learn to build communities around CSA's, not just > markets. The customers should feel that they are part of a community. W. Bart is right and education is in part what I believe has helped develop some of my customers into members. My education is woven in my newsletter (and pick-up day chit chat). I use it (newsletter) to keep them updated on the critters, how to cook the veggies, and subtly use it as a soap box. I have got nothing but positive response about the newsletter I know it helps them feel connected to the farm and well as the veggies. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 14:44:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25906 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 14:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA09732; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:41:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09370 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 13:37:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from loosy.excite.com ([199.172.153.86]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <19991212193556.XYLF6196.gigi.excite.com@loosy.excite.com>; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:35:56 -0800 Message-ID: <21434682.945027356287.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com> Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: sandehill@juno.com, pastpat@thepoint.net, blakey@infocom.com, amrmeb@ime.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org, MikeMcG@RodalePress.com, oeffa@iwaynet.net Subject: Salatin VS Avery Cc: ksnislynagele@compuserve.com, jpq@mail.csuchico.edu, charliep@infocom.com, mranville@hotmail.com, Rossauction@juno.com, abundant@olypen.com, sheltel@earlham.edu, springer@infocom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.53 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 912 You gotta read this, it's great! http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/ruralwri/features/asdebate.htm Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 16:50:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26714 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA16583; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:44:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16204 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 15:40:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA421 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:39:59 -0500 Message-ID: <00bd01bf44eb$29612960$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: restaurants Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 16:52:17 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 913 restaurants & fast sood franchises are not the same for our purposes. we sell to restaurants & have for a while now. we have also owned them. what we mean, is that too many people don;t care about their food anymore-they want fast & already done for you! we need people to care the food, the field, the farmer. the focus needs a shift in order to attract more arches eaters-who eat in their car-don't we even have time to sit & eat a meal with our family anymore-sorry, off topic......... well i just want to say that unless the community as a whole does not take the actual food in their lives seriously, how can they even care about the farm & the farmer??? selling to restaurants who support csa & farmers is not killing our links of field to table, it is the large "franchised, don't recognize a real fresh vegetale if it came in a styrofoam container places. i have a question for you -I think Dan is the name- why do you support the arches if you are a serious "wannabe" I don't see any health food stores making as many"killings" as you put it as the ..."over a billion sold" crowd.You say "more & more people are health conscious than they were 15 years ago..." actually, they talk a good line but: north americans are fatter than ever, heart disease is higher than ever, diabetes is growing faster than ever-type 2 at an alarming rate, more & more women are seriously ill with eating disorders than ever before, & we are being told that irradiated food does not harm us... I think we need to look between the lines & actually see what is happening to our world. CSA is a fabulous idea. one os the best. I pray that we can feed many this coming year , many more who can not afford to buy, will receive what we give away-i thnik community is what will get us back in the right direction. zone 5 ontario p.s. i am very emotional about this-can u tell? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 20:35:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28816 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21338; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:34:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21216 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:33:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-160.premier1.net [207.149.54.160]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id RAA29629 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:26:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001101bf450a$d71c2a40$a03695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: Fw: Off subject: Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:39:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 914 ----- Original Message ----- From: Michaele Blakely To: Sent: Monday, December 06, 1999 1:32 PM Subject: Re: Off subject: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Sunday, December 05, 1999 1:03 PM > Subject: RE: Off subject: > > > > It was only a suggestion. To me, CSA is a direct and local marketing > > system that offers an agricultural experience to a population that is by > in > > large void of such experience. 98.5% of Americans have no clue about the > > origin and processing methods of their food. > > The WTO is about a world marketing system that maintains and > supports > > the separation of large populations from their agricultural roots. For > those > > who shop by price alone the WTO is good. For those who want to support > > agriculture in their community CSA is good. For small farmers who sell > their > > products in other markets other than CSAs there is room for discussion. > > However, this list serves CSA farmers who are often small farmers > but > > choose to sell as directly as possible to their customers while offering a > > relevant connection to the great mother earth. Information about WTO > > activities and FDA policy regarding GMOs is relevant to this list. But I > > find the rehashing of bad experiences and political agendas rather trite > and > > unhelpful in my efforts to promote local direct sales of food and > > reconnecting the disenfranchised population with it's agricultural roots. > > > > Kind regard, > > > > Art Biggert > > Ocean Sky Farm > > Since reading your reply I have spent more than just a few minutes trying > to formulate a response. There are so many different avenues to go down! > Re-hashing events immediately after is not really re-hashing. It's telling > a story, and in this case, for a lot of folks, it involves a healing > process. A necessary step we human beings seem to take. If I'm still > telling the same story two weeks from now, or even next week: now that's > re-hashing, but not trite. Trite is what the media does when it can't let > go of sensationalism. I'm sure that happened this week, although I was too > busy to follow any of the media and will have to catch up. Trite is also > listening to protest chants that haven't changed for decades, but they are > also necessary and serve a purpose, so I ask that you bear with the people > who feel the need to tell their story. Sometimes, when I feel the thread > does not really concern me and I am busy and don't have the time to read I > use the delete key. > I told my story right after the gentlemen from Portland to add some > credence to what he had to say. His did sound a bit inflammatory and he was > pretty upset. Experiences like his did happen though. He just doesn't like > Clinton. > I think you are over simplyfying the effect the WTO might have on us > farmers, or maybe I am an alarmist. I have a subscrition farm and sell at > farmer's markets. I maintain a direct connection with my eaters. However I > think what the WTO is trying to do with agriculture will have an impact on > me even though I try as hard as I can to maintain control over my market. > Just look at what happened this summer to Washington's small apple growers. > That incidence certainly did influence the markets I sold at. > My son attends a small private school because I want the best educational > environment I can find for him and I have decided this particular school > offers more than his local public school. We are granted a scholarship and > also sacrifice to meet the payments. It is in a sense a bubble environment > away from the detrimental aspects of a vast majority of schools. We do not > however ignore the rest of the culture out there just because it does not > effect us. Because eventually no matter how thick our bubble's walls are, > it will penetrate somehow. > Being a CSA farmer, small farmer with a local market, whatever, should not > mean that what is happening with the WTO and smalll farmers excludes you. > It may not this year, but somehow down the line the trickle down effect will > get you. > The plight of small farmers everywhere should be a concern for every farmer. > The plight of large farmers should also be our concern. > It is important to get information out to people and to allow the viability > of personal experience formulate opinions. > I am sure I could go on and on, but what I am really asking for is tolerance > for those who feel such an agenda is important. > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > Carnation WA > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 12 20:40:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA28903 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 20:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA21766; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:39:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21387 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 19:34:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-160.premier1.net [207.149.54.160]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id RAA29807 for ; Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:28:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001a01bf450b$0df9e160$a03695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: forware Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 17:40:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF44C7.FF0595C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 915 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF44C7.FF0595C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies to the group and to Art. I accidently sent an old mail = that was sent specifically to Art not the group. Sorry everyone. Art = sent back a very nice thank-you for my thoughts. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF44C7.FF0595C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    My apologies to the group and to = Art.  I=20 accidently sent an old mail that was sent specifically to Art not the=20 group.  Sorry everyone.  Art sent back a very nice thank-you = for my=20 thoughts.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BF44C7.FF0595C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 06:42:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03160 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA26777; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:35:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26332 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:23:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ETQDJ29P; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:22:39 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:16:26 -0500 Subject: Fw: ASPARTAME - danger Message-ID: <19991213.061654.-137451.2.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 3.0.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13-21,23,25-29,31-34,36,38,40,42-44,46-49,51,53-55,57,59-60,62,64,66-69,71-74,76-77,79-83,85-86,88-92,94-98,100-108,110-112,114-115,117-121,123-125,127-131,133,135-142,144-145,147-149,151-152,154-158,160-161,163-169,171-173,175,177-186,188-193,195-201,203-207,209-210,212,214,216-218,220-225,227-228,230-239,241-242,244-245,247-251,253-259,261-279 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 916 >From the folks who brought you the Terminator, we now bring you:...... ************************************* WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE and the MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS FOUNDATION & F.D.A. IS SUING FOR COLLUSION WITH MONSANTO >> > Article written by Nancy Markle I have spent several days lecturing at the WORLD ENVIRONMENTAL CONFERENCE on "ASPARTAME marketed as 'NutraSweet', 'Equal', and 'Spoonful"'. In the keynote address by the EPA, they announced that there was an epidemic of multiple sclerosis and systemic lupus, and they did not understand what toxin was causing this to be rampant across the United States. I explained that I was there to lecture on exactly that subject. When the temperature of Aspartame exceeds 86 degrees F, the wood alcohol in ASPARTAME coverts to formaldehyde and then to formic acid, which in turn causes metabolic acidosis. (Formic acid is the poison found in the sting of fire ants). The methanol toxicity mimics multiple sclerosis; thus people were being diagnosed with having multiple sclerosis in error. The multiple sclerosis is not a death sentence, where methanol toxicity is. In the case of systemic lupus, we are finding it has become almost as rampant as multiple sclerosis, especially Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi drinkers. Also, with methanol toxicity, the victims usually drink three to four 12 oz. cans of them per day, some even more. In the cases of systemic lupus, which is triggered by ASPARTAME, the victim usually does not know that the aspartame is the culprit. The victim continues its use aggravating the lupus to such a degree, that sometimes it becomes life threatening. When we get people off the aspartame, those with systemic lupus usually become asymptomatic. Unfortunately, we can not reverse this disease. On the other hand, in the case of those diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, (when in reality, the disease is methanol toxicity), most of the symptoms disappear. We have seen cases where their vision has returned and even their hearing has returned. This also applies to cases of tinnitus. During a lecture I said "If you are using ASPARTAME (NutraSweet, Equal, Spoonful, etc.) and you suffer from fibromyalgia symptoms, spasms, shooting pains, numbness in your legs, cramps, vertigo, dizziness, headaches, tinnitus, joint pain, depression, anxiety attacks, slurred speech, blurred vision, or memory loss-you probably have ASPARTAME DISEASE!" People were jumping up during the lecture saying, "I've got this. Is it reversible?" It is rampant. Some of the speakers at my lecture even were suffering from these symptoms. In one lecture attended by the Ambassador of Uganda, he told us that their sugar industry is adding aspartame! He continued by saying that one of the industry leader's son could no longer walk - due in part by product usage! We have a very serious problem. Even a stranger came up to Dr. Espisto (one of my speakers) and myself and said, "Could you tell me why so many people seem to be coming down with MS?" During a visit to a hospice, anurse said that six of her friends, who were heavy Diet Coke addicts, had all been diagnosed with MS. This is beyond coincidence. Here is the problem. There were Congressional Hearings when aspartame was included in 100 different products. Since this initial hearing, there have been two subsequent hearings, but to no avail. Nothing has been done. The drug and chemical lobbies have very deep pockets. Now there are over 5,000 products containing this chemical, and the PATENT HAS EXPIRED!!!! At the time of this first hearing, people were going blind. The methanol in the aspartame converts to formaldehyde in the retina of the eye. Formaldehyde is grouped in the same class of drugs as cyanide and arsenic - DEADLY POISONS!!! Unfortunately, it just takes longer to quietly kill, but it is killing people and causing all kinds of neurological problems. Aspartame changes the brain's chemistry. It is the reason for severe seizures. This drug changes the dopamine level in the brain. Imagine what this drug does to patients suffering from Parkinson's Disease. This drug also causes birth defects. There is absolutely no reason to take this product. It is NOT A DIET PRODUCT!. The Congressional record said, "It makes you crave carbohydrates and will make you FAT". Dr. Roberts stated that when he got patients off aspartame, their average weight loss was 19 pounds per person. The formaldehyde stores in the fat cells, particularly in the hips and thighs. Aspartame is especially deadly for diabetics. All physicians know what wood alcohol will do to a diabetic. We find that physicians believe that they have patients with retinopathy, when in fact, it is caused by the aspartame. The aspartame keeps the blood sugar level out of control, causing many patients to go into a coma. Unfortunately, many have died. People were telling us at the Conference of the American College of Physicians, that they had relatives that switched from saccharin to an aspartame product and how that relative had eventually gone into a coma. Their physicians could not get the blood sugar levels under control. Thus, the patients suffered acute memory loss and eventually coma and death. Memory loss is due to the fact that aspartic acid and phenylalanine are neurotoxic without the other amino acids found in protein. Thus it goes past the blood brain barrier and deteriorates the neurons of the brain. Dr. Russell Blaylock, neurosurgeon, said, "The ingredients stimulates the neurons of the brain to death, causing brain damage of varying degrees. Dr. Blaylock has written a book entitled "EXCITOTOXINS: THE TASTE THAT KILLS" (Health Press 1-800-643-2665). Dr. H. J. Roberts, diabetic specialist and world expert on aspartame poisoning, has also written a book entitled "DEFENSE AGAINST ALZHEIMER'S DISEASE" (1-800-814-9800). Dr. Roberts tells how aspartame poisoning is escalating Alzheimer's Disease, and indeed it is. As the hospice nurse told me, women are being admitted at 30 years of age with Alzheimer's Disease. Dr. Blaylock and Dr. Roberts will be writing a position paper with some case histories and will post it on the Internet. According to the Conference of the American College of Physicians, "We are talking about a plague of neurological diseases caused by this deadly poison". Dr. Roberts realized what was happening when aspartame was first marketed. He said, "his diabetic patients presented memory loss, confusion, and severe vision loss". At the Conference of the American College of Physicians, doctors admitted that they did not know. They had wondered why seizures were rampant (the phenylalanine in aspartame breaks down the seizure threshold and depletes serotonin, which causes manic depression, panic attacks, rage and violence). Just before the Conference, I received a fax from Norway, asking for a possible antidote for this poison because they are experiencing so many problems in their country. This "poison" is now available in 90 PLUS countries worldwide. Fortunately, we had speakers and ambassadors at the Conference from different nations who have pledged their help. We ask that you help too. Print this article out and warn everyone you know. Take anything that contains aspartame back to the store. Take the "NO ASPARTAME TEST" and send us your case history. I assure you that MONSANTO, the creator of aspartame, knows how deadly it is. They fund the American Diabetes Association, American Dietetic Association, Congress, and the Conference of the American College of Physicians. The New York Times, November 15, 1996, ran an article on how the American Dietetic Association takes money from the food industry to endorse their products. Therefore, they can not criticize any additives or tell about their link to MONSANTO. How bad is this? We told a mother who had a child on NutraSweet to get off the product. The child was having grand mal seizures every day. The mother called her physician, who called the ADA, who told the doctor not to take the child off the NutraSweet. We are still trying to convince the mother that the aspartame is causing the seizures. Every time we get someone off of aspartame, the seizures stop. If the baby dies, you know whose fault it is, and what we are up against. There are 92 documented symptoms of aspartame, from coma to death. The majority of them are all neurological, because the aspartame destroys the nervous system. Aspartame Disease is partially the cause to what is behind some of the mystery of the Desert Storm health problems. The burning tongue and other problems discussed in over 60 cases can be directly related to the consumption of an aspartame product. Several thousand pallets of diet drinks were shipped to the Desert Storm troops. (Remember heat can liberate the methanol from the aspartame at 86 degrees F). Diet drinks sat in the 120 degree F Arabian sun for weeks at a time on pallets. The servicemen and women drank them all day long. All of their symptoms are identical to aspartame poisoning. Dr. Roberts says "consumingaspartame at the time of conception can cause birth defects". The phenylalanine concentrates in the lacenta, causing mental retardation, according to Dr. Louis Elsas, Pediatrician Professor - Genetics, at Emory University in his testimony before Congress. In the original lab tests, animals developed brain tumors phenylalanine breaks down into DXP, a brain tumor agent). When Dr. Espisto was lecturing on aspartame, one physician in the audience, a neurosurgeon, said, "When they remove brain tumors,they have found high levels of aspartame in them". Stevia, a sweet food, NOT AN ADDITIVE, which helps in the metabolism of sugar, which would be ideal for diabetics, has now been approved as a dietary supplement by the F.D.A. For years, the F.D.A. has outlawed this sweet food because of their loyalty to MONSANTO. If it says "SUGAR FREE" on the label - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. Senator Howard Hetzenbaum wrote a bill that would have warned all infants, pregnant mothers and children of the dangers of aspartame. The bill would have also instituted independent studies on the problems existing in the population (seizures, changes in brain chemistry, changes in neurological and behavioral symptoms). It was killed by the powerful drug and chemical lobbies, letting loose the hounds of disease and death on an unsuspecting public. Since the Conference of the American College of Physicians, we hope to have the help of some world leaders. Again, please help us, too. There are a lot of people out there who must be warned, please let them know this information. ----------------------------------------------- Women's Cancer Resource Center Laurie Moser, Assistant Director 1815 East 41st Street, Suite C Minneapolis, MN 55407-3425 1-800-908-8544 or 612-729-049 PS I called the above # and talked with Laurie and she said the official Author is Betty Martini and she can be reached at 770 242-2599. Chuck McWilliams ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 06:48:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA03217 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA27019; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:39:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA26843 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:37:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-172.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.172]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA27717; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:37:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001f01bf4577$a66c3f80$acf86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Michaele Blakely" , References: <001a01bf450b$0df9e160$a03695cf@pmjb> Subject: Re: forware Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:37:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF4534.974EC100" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 917 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF4534.974EC100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michaele, Don't ya just love computer buttons. When my son = attempted his first online purchase we ended up with 3 backpacks! I did = not mind the note. I agree that all/most of agricultural issues nation = wide to some extent affect all farmers. One of the things I feel may = happen due to all the WTO uproar is that more people are beginning to = hear about GM seeds. Unless you save all your seeds the seeds "out = there" and available affect all farmers. Probably all of us buy seeds = from small companies, but even there its has trickled in, in that they = had to print disclaimers in their catologues about not knowingly = offering any GM seeds. I like seeds and am apt to be tempted if I walk = in to any old store grab a packet (ok maybe 3) of flower seeds. What I = learned on another list disturbed me. many of those seemingly local (the = grocery store type seeds) small seed companies are actually owned by the = big big guys. I have changed computers since and so do not have that = old message. I think there is a web page if anyone is desperate for the = info I could repost a help message to the other list. Beth My apologies to the group and to Art. I accidently sent an old mail = that was sent specifically to Art not the group. Sorry everyone. Art = sent back a very nice thank-you for my thoughts. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF4534.974EC100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    Hi Michaele, Don't ya just love = computer=20 buttons.  When my son attempted his first online purchase we = ended up=20 with 3 backpacks!  I did not mind the note.  I agree that=20 all/most of agricultural issues nation wide to some extent affect = all=20 farmers.  One of the things I feel may happen due to all the WTO = uproar=20 is that more people are beginning to hear about GM seeds.  Unless = you=20 save all your seeds the seeds "out there" and available affect all=20 farmers.  Probably all of us buy seeds from small companies, but = even=20 there its has trickled in, in that they had to print disclaimers in = their=20 catologues about not knowingly offering any GM seeds.  I like = seeds and=20 am apt to be tempted if I walk in to any old store grab a packet (ok = maybe 3)=20 of flower seeds.  What I learned on another list disturbed me. = many of=20 those seemingly local (the grocery store type seeds) small seed = companies are=20 actually owned by the big big guys.  I have changed computers = since and=20 so do not have that old message. I think there is a web page if anyone = is=20 desperate for the info I could repost a help message to the other = list. =20 Beth
     
     
    My apologies to the group and to = Art.  I=20 accidently sent an old mail that was sent specifically to Art not the=20 group.  Sorry everyone.  Art sent back a very nice thank-you = for my=20 thoughts.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation=20 WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01BF4534.974EC100-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 07:02:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03292 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 07:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA27223; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:44:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27089 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 05:42:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-172.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.172]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA26804 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:42:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501bf4578$5e05e560$acf86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: References: <21434682.945027356287.JavaMail.imail@loosy.excite.com> Subject: Re: Salatin VS Avery Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 06:43:05 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 918 Hi list, this is worth checking out. I believe it was the DJ who first brought the knowledge of this debate to the general public, well the Sanet-list. He first talked about it coming up, then after it aired. He told the list anyone could have a paper copy if they sent to him for it. Free or nominal cost I don't remember. Well someone asked could it be on the internet. The fellow said he could not afford to get it there. Well someone from Sanet-list annonymously donated the money to get it up there. I just thought that was so nice. Beth > You gotta read this, it's great! > http://metalab.unc.edu/farming-connection/ruralwri/features/asdebate.htm > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com > Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 11:52:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08797 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA18948; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:50:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA18820 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:48:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-240-204.s458.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.240.204] helo=hj7fk) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11xYe7-0006GB-00 for CSA-L@prairienet.org; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:48:23 -0500 Message-ID: <005c01bf4589$d0391060$ccf03ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> <005301bf43fb$98bf7640$63f96ed1@guldann> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:47:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 919 Hi folks, Jim again. This was a great thread; thought I'd see if I could get it going again. A few people have asked me what my interest in the topic is, whether I was thinking of farming, or switching a farm over to CSA. Well, I've thought about becoming a farmer often over the years, but I'm afraid I don't have much aptitude for it. I don't mind the hard work part (I carried all my firewood for last winter - about five cords - up out of the valley I live on the hillside above, an armload at the time; can't get a tractor down there) but things die when I touch them. I have a hard enough time keeping my small vegetable garden growing. And though I own ten acres, it's on steep hillsides, and mostly wooded, and I don't intend to clear it. Here's why I'm interested: I'm a physicist and a teacher and I'm on sabattical for a year, so I've got some time on my hands. My home is in Maine but I'm spending the year in Princeton, NJ, home of high-tech companies, late-model cars, overpriced real estate, and horrendous traffic. I've been thinking about how life would be if we weren't all (not all I suppose, but most, around here anyway, and in most of the nation's high-tech corridors) living on television, shopping malls, grocery megastores staffed with surly teenagers (there's a Wegman's just down the street that's bigger than some shopping malls) and frequent purchases of stuff we don't need (how many VCR's does a person need?). It's clear to me that this culture isn't working; at least it isn't working for anything except generating new wealth, which we then spend on more stuff we don't need. It seems to me that all that new stuff we're buying is an unsuccessful attempt to mask the dissatisfaction that many of us feel with our lives. It's a vicious cycle that drives a powerful economy full of fundamentally unhappy souls. I'm spending my time thinking about what things exist in the world that have promise for helping society to change for the better. Community farming, and CSA in particular, is at the top of my list. I'm thinking of this from the consumer's perspective, mainly. If the culture is going to be changed for the better, it'll be necessary to harness things that are intrinsically, innately, obviously good. Good, locally grown organic produce is one of the easiest ways to sell a better lifestyle, since the quality is so apparent. Because it tastes good, and people like good food. And CSA makes a lot of sense as a way of aquiring it (the produce); it also offers, as many of you often point out, a glimpse of a principled, respectful way of living that all of us could benefit from. And I like the roughness of it, of getting too much, unprocessed, staying up late after the kids go to bed putting it up. And how many corporate managers and hotshot computer programmers don't think about starting their own farm sometimes when their eyes glaze over at the end of a long day in front of a computer in a gray-walled cell? You guys are boddhisattvas, gurus of good living. You and your products are an easy sell. I don't know if this will ever happen. I don't know if the timing's right, or what form this project will ultimately take. I can tell you that I have no intention of seeking a "cut" of the profits. I don't think a non-profit can harness the resources that would be necessary to undertake such an ambitious project as what I have in mind. I'm talking about making a significant improvement in the quality of our culture, and in the lifestyle of the average American. Maybe take a good chunk out of that impressive GDP by showing people there's more to life. So probably it will need to be a business, promising profits to investors, to provide access to the capital it would take to reach enough people to make it worthwhile. I can imagine, eventually, a demand-driven, radical restructuring of the food industry. But there are ways to make money without exploiting farmers. CSA will be only one aspect of it, but it could well be an important aspect. Okay, come on, tell me I'm dreaming. I know it already. But I've got a feeling that we're at a critical time. We're approaching the end of what will soon be the longest economic expansion in history. A lot of people have made a lot of money (not me though). This has been the ultimate experiment in whether money can buy happiness, and we all know what the outcome of that experiment will be. It can't. The media are full of reports about people who are richer than ever before but find their lives unsatisfying, for one reason or another. Harried schedules, terrible traffic, not enough time with spouses or children. The New York Times called it a "Gilt Complex". So c'mon, folks. I'll be greatly encouraged if many of you are supportive of what I want to do. But if you aren't (and, of course, if you are) please tell me why. I intend to read your replies carefully, and take them very seriously. What you say will be important in shaping this venture, making it go or killing it. So have at it. Let me know what you think. Sincerely, Jim Austin ----- Original Message ----- From: Hook Family To: Jim Austin ; Sent: Saturday, December 11, 1999 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > Jim started the interesting thread on CSA with the following post I snipped > some of it. Many of or all the farmers who have responded appear to be > saying the same thing, they believe there are more members but their farm is > for now at capacity and have given their reasons. My question to Jim. Are > you a farmer, say one who farms and is getting research to branch into CSA. > Or are you a future farmer deciding if CSA if for you? Do you have > workaholic tendacies? I ask because, while my husband is the type to never > sit still (I think that is a criteria for self emplyoment) I have couch > potato tendacies (can you get seed pototes for those?) And I will say I am > surprised with how much I like farming, vegetable growing is miraculous and > I love farm animals. But I have not worked so physically hard in my entire > life, although I must say I enjoy the physical benefits that are usually > only achieved by attending a gym :). Thanks Beth > > > I saw on the UMASS CSA page that CSA supports some 75,000 families. That's > a > > rather small percentage. > interested consumers)? Or is it something else? > If the demand were suddenly > > to increase, would supply be able to keep pace? Is CSA indeed a good deal > > for farmers? Can they charge enough to make CSA a good business model? > > > > I'm doing informal research. It's not for publication. Just trying to > learn > > about CSA. > > > > > And if you have any reliable references, I'd love to hear > > about those as well. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jim Austin > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 13:28:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10669 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA27999; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:27:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA27888 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:26:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-175.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.175]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24954; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:25:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008501bf45b0$bb748700$acf86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Jim Austin" , References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> <005301bf43fb$98bf7640$63f96ed1@guldann> <005c01bf4589$d0391060$ccf03ad0@hj7fk> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 13:26:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 920 >Hi Jim and list, Thank-you for introducing yourself. As a farmer I think your post was inspirational. I honestly fluctuate from optomistic to feeling like I am paddling upstream. But how many times have we heard variations on think globally (or nationally) act locally. There is huge wisdom in that. Where should I start, well I love Art Biggert's phrase "whenever I point a finger at someone I realize there are three pointing back at me" Where does one start? Well, ok, everyone get ready to laugh: I was just thinking yesterday, I am going to make a new year's resolution (never really made one before). Its is to increase the quantity of local food that I (family) ingest. Not mind boggling, should be like falling of a local log. I know full well it is going to be as difficult as loosing weight, getting organized (I never even attempted to resolve that one), and quitting smoking. I am not even your average consumer, I am naturally cheap, I don't throw my money around. So comparatively I am less of a consumer just to consume type, but I ain't no consumer angel either. There is in my house 4 TV's, darn 5. I bought 4, one is a hammy down. One is a tiny 5 in screen BW but its still a TV. 3 VCRs one is in one of the TV and at the moment doesn't work (do I get brownie point credits for that? I didn't think so). I am not typing on an telegraph set. My husband (and even the kids) would not keep any clothing manufacture in the black. We wear out etc. I had to buy my husband some new work clothes (he's a teacher) I was getting embarrassed at his "look". I have had the good fortune to be the same size a my friends teenage girls and gotten great hammy downs, those girls don't like wearing anything that isn't perfect. We have no outstanding debt, never have run up a large holiday bill. But I did not preserved nearly enough of my harvest to last me the winter, it's hard to be in the field and in the kitchen. We have one bull in the freezer but how much beef can one eat. The two nearest grocery stores each the same brand and owned by a Dutch company I believe are 3 miles away. A local dairy I like probably 15 miles away. Heath foods stores one I like about 10 miles. In my ag business class however I met a fellow farmer (I knew of her it was good to meet her), she raises, pigs, turkeys and maybe chickens. I talked to her about buying some pork, note I haven't yet. So Jim don't get discouraged, keep dreaming and join a CSA if you haven't already. And I will also say I neighbor, I am from Massachusetts. My sister lives in Maine, Portland. Have you read the books, Farms of the Furture Revisited, by Trogh (spelling?) and McFadden, and Sharing the Harvest by Henderson and Van Ey. I think you would like them. Both are about CSAs. Beth Hi folks, Jim again. This was a great thread; thought I'd see if I could get > it going again. > > > Here's why I'm interested: I'm a physicist and a teacher and I'm on > sabattical for a year, so I've got some time on my hands. My home is in > Maine but I'm spending the year in Princeton, NJ, home of high-tech > companies, late-model cars, overpriced real estate, and horrendous traffic. > I've been thinking about how life would be if we weren't all (not all I > suppose, but most, around here anyway, and in most of the nation's high-tech > corridors) living on television, shopping malls, grocery megastores staffed > with surly teenagers (there's a Wegman's just down the street that's bigger > than some shopping malls) and frequent purchases of stuff we don't need (how > many VCR's does a person need?). It's clear to me that this culture isn't > working; at least it isn't working for anything except generating new > > organic produce is one of the easiest ways to sell a better lifestyle, since > the quality is so apparent. Because it tastes good, and people like good > food. And CSA makes a lot of sense as a way of aquiring it (the produce); it > also offers, as many of you often point out, a glimpse of a principled, > respectful way of living that all of us could benefit from. And I like the > roughness of it, of getting too much, unprocessed, staying up late after the > kids go to bed putting it up. And how many corporate managers and hotshot > computer programmers don't think about starting their own farm sometimes > when their eyes glaze over at the end of a long day in front of a computer > in a gray-walled cell? You guys are boddhisattvas, gurus of good living. You > and your products are an easy sell. > > I don't know if this will ever happen. I don't know if the timing's right, > or what form this project will ultimately take. I can tell you that I have snipped From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 17:26:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15123 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA23512; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:24:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA23082 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:22:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 1967 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 22:22:25 -0000 Received: from i48-05-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.3.21) (216.26.3.21) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 22:22:25 -0000 Message-ID: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:21:59 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Pricing Commodities Response Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 921 Thanks for all the responses to my original post. In response to some of the ideas expressed: It IS all about eduication. Do you think "consumers" aren't being educated now? What do you think the billions spent on advertising is all about? Our job includes presenting another view of food and agriculture. One, I think we can agree, which is more sound ecologically, economically and socially. Second, (from Beth), I think farm stands, farmers' markets , direct sales to restaurants, etc. ar all fine markets for the small grower. We have sold to all of them in the past, and will probably do future research in those markets. What I do try to do is separate CSA from other markets. I believe that the mutual sharing of risk and bouty inherent in CSA precludes selling to any other market: if your Harvest Shareholders put up the money to operate the farm then what you produce is theirs. There is nothing to take to market. I know of no equitable way to "split" an operation between CSA and any other market. All the attempts I know of shortchange either the grower or the Harvest Shareholder when times are bad. (Actually, all the time, but people tend not to get upset about it in a bountiful year.) Third, (as Jim Austin said), buying great food is a major reason a lot of people join CSA. I wasn't trying to present an exhaustive list, just a representative one. Again, we often need to educate people that food is not a commodity - where it comes from, when, and how it is grown, harvested and shipped is important. That, by the way, is one reason restaurants can be such a good market - cheps know quality produce and meat. Fourth, I'm not sure "fortunate" is the word I would use to describe having a group of Harvest Shareholders who "Get it." RTemember, we've been doing this since 1991. Our turnover in the early yearws was 60-75%. It is still about 25%. We are constantly providing information about our growing practices, our variety selection, what seasonality means, etc. in our efforts to educate our people abouit food issues. We lose people for all the reasons mentioned by those of you who have responded - plus because of death or moving out of the area. The good news it that once you get through to someone they stay year after year. There is a basic fact about being in business, any business: some people are your customers now; some people are not your customers now but will be in the future; some people will never be your cutomers. The trick to successful marketing is to find the first group as fast and as inexpensivley as you can, then to find and develop people in the second group into members in the first group, all the while wasting as little time and energy on the third group as possible. Another basic fact: almost all of those people in the third group are there for reasons you have no control over. Fifth, (Jim again - "As with good wine and other things of quality, you probably can't sell a fifty-dollar Bordeau in a community that's just fine with the $2.98 Boone's farm.") But of course you can. It is done all the time. In fact, it may be a community with your best potential. Once people are educated about wines many will want a superior wine. Some will not (see the preceding paragraph), but many will. It is a much easier market to move in to than one where they are buying a fifty-dollar Bordeau from another vintner. Again, it isn't the price tag thjat counts, it is the PERCEIVED value. Bart, I have a little problem with your statements "To put it another way we must learn to build communities around CSA's, not just markets. The customers should feel that they are part of a community." I may be reading it wrong, but it seems to me that CSAs grow from communities, not the other way around. We don't have customers, we have Harvest Shareholders. That's not simply semantics, either. Our relationship is with a community of people who have a direct and critical interest in the harvest, and therefore the farm. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 17:41:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15322 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA25974; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:39:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [165.227.128.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25762 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:38:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from 165.227.137.168 (sa-165-227-137-168.cruzio.com [165.227.137.168]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id OAA04621; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:38:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:47:50 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osalt@teleport.com CC: CSA list Subject: Split operations References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 922 Thanks, Will for a thoughtful response on the recent threads that pertain to CSAs. In our area, most of the CSA operations are 'split' between a CSA and farmers markets. The 2 or 3 who are not split are not-for-profit educational centers that have income other than farm production. For our farm and for our neighbors as well, we find the split operation invaluable. We set aside a certain amount for the CSA. Our CSA always comes first. We also plant for the farmers markets, often a pretty different mix although there is some overlap. When our cabbage planting did GREAT this year, our CSA members got their fill of cabbages. If we had given more, we would have lost members, a few people told me as much. When we had way more broccoli than members this past spring, we filled the boxes with extra, extra and extra with pleas to share with neighbors. We had far more hostile responses than thank yous. Next time, the extra will go to the local soup kitchen. (broccoli is one crop we don't take to farmers market.) I just thought the list would be intersted to see the diversity among CSA farmers. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 17:57:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15583 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00109; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:55:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29960 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 16:54:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 11925 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 22:54:39 -0000 Received: from i48-05-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.3.21) (216.26.3.21) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 22:54:39 -0000 Message-ID: <38556B01.5752@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:54:16 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Austin CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> <005301bf43fb$98bf7640$63f96ed1@guldann> <005c01bf4589$d0391060$ccf03ad0@hj7fk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 923 Jim Austin wrote: > > Hi folks, Jim again. This was a great thread; thought I'd see if I could get > it going again. > > A few people have asked me what my interest in the topic is, whether I was > thinking of farming, or switching a farm over to CSA. Well, I've thought > about becoming a farmer often over the years, but I'm afraid I don't have > much aptitude for it. I don't mind the hard work part (I carried all my > firewood for last winter - about five cords - up out of the valley I live on > the hillside above, an armload at the time; can't get a tractor down there) > but things die when I touch them. I have a hard enough time keeping my small > vegetable garden growing. And though I own ten acres, it's on steep > hillsides, and mostly wooded, and I don't intend to clear it. > > Here's why I'm interested: I'm a physicist and a teacher and I'm on > sabattical for a year, so I've got some time on my hands. My home is in > Maine but I'm spending the year in Princeton, NJ, home of high-tech > companies, late-model cars, overpriced real estate, and horrendous traffic. > I've been thinking about how life would be if we weren't all (not all I > suppose, but most, around here anyway, and in most of the nation's high-tech > corridors) living on television, shopping malls, grocery megastores staffed > with surly teenagers (there's a Wegman's just down the street that's bigger > than some shopping malls) and frequent purchases of stuff we don't need (how > many VCR's does a person need?). It's clear to me that this culture isn't > working; at least it isn't working for anything except generating new > wealth, which we then spend on more stuff we don't need. It seems to me that > all that new stuff we're buying is an unsuccessful attempt to mask the > dissatisfaction that many of us feel with our lives. It's a vicious cycle > that drives a powerful economy full of fundamentally unhappy souls. > > I'm spending my time thinking about what things exist in the world that have > promise for helping society to change for the better. Community farming, and > CSA in particular, is at the top of my list. > > I'm thinking of this from the consumer's perspective, mainly. If the culture > is going to be changed for the better, it'll be necessary to harness things > that are intrinsically, innately, obviously good. Good, locally grown > organic produce is one of the easiest ways to sell a better lifestyle, since > the quality is so apparent. Because it tastes good, and people like good > food. And CSA makes a lot of sense as a way of aquiring it (the produce); it > also offers, as many of you often point out, a glimpse of a principled, > respectful way of living that all of us could benefit from. And I like the > roughness of it, of getting too much, unprocessed, staying up late after the > kids go to bed putting it up. And how many corporate managers and hotshot > computer programmers don't think about starting their own farm sometimes > when their eyes glaze over at the end of a long day in front of a computer > in a gray-walled cell? You guys are boddhisattvas, gurus of good living. You > and your products are an easy sell. > > I don't know if this will ever happen. I don't know if the timing's right, > or what form this project will ultimately take. I can tell you that I have > no intention of seeking a "cut" of the profits. I don't think a non-profit > can harness the resources that would be necessary to undertake such an > ambitious project as what I have in mind. I'm talking about making a > significant improvement in the quality of our culture, and in the lifestyle > of the average American. Maybe take a good chunk out of that impressive GDP > by showing people there's more to life. So probably it will need to be a > business, promising profits to investors, to provide access to the capital > it would take to reach enough people to make it worthwhile. I can imagine, > eventually, a demand-driven, radical restructuring of the food industry. But > there are ways to make money without exploiting farmers. CSA will be only > one aspect of it, but it could well be an important aspect. > > Okay, come on, tell me I'm dreaming. I know it already. But I've got a > feeling that we're at a critical time. We're approaching the end of what > will soon be the longest economic expansion in history. A lot of people have > made a lot of money (not me though). This has been the ultimate experiment > in whether money can buy happiness, and we all know what the outcome of that > experiment will be. It can't. The media are full of reports about people who > are richer than ever before but find their lives unsatisfying, for one > reason or another. Harried schedules, terrible traffic, not enough time with > spouses or children. The New York Times called it a "Gilt Complex". > > So c'mon, folks. I'll be greatly encouraged if many of you are supportive of > what I want to do. But if you aren't (and, of course, if you are) please > tell me why. I intend to read your replies carefully, and take them very > seriously. What you say will be important in shaping this venture, making it > go or killing it. So have at it. Let me know what you think. > > Sincerely, > > Jim Austin It would probably not be a good idea for everyone to be a farmer. There are so many other worthwhile things that need to be done. You have the right idea though: each individual can make a difference. Only individuals can make a difference. The big changes result from the changing of each of us, one of us at a time. If we but grew >From those who knew The wonderous things: The joys of Springs, The peace of nights, The Earth's delights. In truth we'd be Divine, and free. And we do. And we are. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 18:30:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16072 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 18:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09841; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:28:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA09407 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 17:27:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 21257 invoked from network); 13 Dec 1999 23:26:59 -0000 Received: from i48-05-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.3.21) (216.26.3.21) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Dec 1999 23:26:59 -0000 Message-ID: <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 15:26:37 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa@mariquita.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Split Operations References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 924 Julia Wiley wrote: > > Thanks, Will for a thoughtful response on the recent threads that > pertain to CSAs. In our area, most of the CSA operations are 'split' > between a CSA and farmers markets. The 2 or 3 who are not split are > not-for-profit educational centers that have income other than farm > production. For our farm and for our neighbors as well, we find the > split operation invaluable. We set aside a certain amount for the CSA. > Our CSA always comes first. We also plant for the farmers markets, often > a pretty different mix although there is some overlap. > > When our cabbage planting did GREAT this year, our CSA members got > their fill of cabbages. If we had given more, we would have lost > members, a few people told me as much. When we had way more broccoli > than members this past spring, we filled the boxes with extra, extra and > extra with pleas to share with neighbors. We had far more hostile > responses than thank yous. Next time, the extra will go to the local > soup kitchen. (broccoli is one crop we don't take to farmers market.) > > I just thought the list would be intersted to see the diversity among > CSA farmers. > > Julia > -- > ______________________________________ > Mariquita Farm > Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables > P. O. Box 2065 > Watsonville, CA 95077 > (831)761-3226 > http://www.mariquita.com > e-mail: csa@mariquita.com > _______________________________________ I understand. Most of the split operations I know of are like yours. Here is where I have the problem: If you include the non-CSA income in your budget - If you have a bad crop year you can short the CSA or short the market. If you short the CSA you are breaking trust - I find that unethical, and it also means you are not a CSA (i.e. share the bounty, share the risk) If you short the market you are subsidizing peoples' food (you are lowering your income). We need to STOP subsidizing peoples' food, and you may also lose the farm. I believe that you are making a planning error: either you don't charge enough per harvest share or you don't sell enough harvest shares (or both). As a CSA you should charge enough for your harvest shares so that you don't need other income. As for excess production: great. We give it too local groups who feed the poor. They key is not to include it in your income planning, then you aren't in any trouble if the excess doesn't appear, and you aren't tempted to sell it (getting yourself into the bind of "what is truely excess"). I recognize that I am almost alone in this, but it seems clear to me that the heart of CSA is share the risk, share the bounty, so it is clear: if you are a CSA operation you have only one market - the CSA Harvest Shareholders. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 21:42:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18074 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA01988; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:40:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from main.tellink.net (root@main.tellink.net [208.3.160.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA01680 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:37:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from barthunte.tellink.net (pm-4-38.tellink.net [208.3.161.150]) by main.tellink.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA10568 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:37:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01bf45db$ce0ee420$96a103d0@tellink.net> From: "W. Bart Hunter" To: Subject: Pricing Commodities Response Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:34:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 925 Will you wrote: >We don't have customers, we have Harvest >Shareholders. That's not simply semantics, either. Our relationship is >with a community of people who have a direct and critical interest in >the harvest, and therefore the farm. Thank you. You have made my point. I'll bet that this community that has a "direct and critical interest" in your operation did not exist before you began the farm or transferred their interest to you. You built a community of people called "Harvest Shareholders". This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. It is only semantics because I didn't know the name of your community any more then you know the name of the community I grew up in. Thus I used a generic term for the group of people or community we normally call customers. As you for education I did not say that the consumer is not being educated. I agree that right now the residents of the US are getting a graduate level course in consumerism. When I said "we" I mean the people who support/farm CSA's must do the educating. By the way this also speaks to Jim's question of why aren't CSA's bigger (and/or perhaps more wide spread). To seek out and join a CSA takes time and commitment. I venture to hazard a guess that the average consumer does not even know what a CSA is much less where the nearest one is. Therefor starting or maintaining a CSA is very difficult. The consumer does care about their food and the environment, but they are often trapped into thinking that buying "organic" food or environmentally friendly products in the chain stores is accomplishing something--it isn't. What it is doing is making the middlemen/women and the ad people richer at the expense of the small family and CSA farmer. We (CSA supporters/farmers) need to educate them that there is a better way. Bart From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 22:36:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18677 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA07309; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:29:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [165.227.128.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07200 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:29:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from 165.227.129.6 (sa-165-227-129-6.cruzio.com [165.227.129.6]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id TAA01189; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 19:29:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:38:26 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osalt@teleport.com CC: CSA list Subject: sharing the trust References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 926 Will: The problem we face is that the public here in central California is too spoiled, and they simply aren't willing to take the risk, with a few exceptions. We don't have enough hours in the day to do that much education, although we do as much as we can. Supermarkets, Farmers markets, health food stores large and small, they are all doing a better and better job. I feel it *is* a CSA if the folks pay for the whole season (about 10% of our members) or even just 10 weeks at a time. They are sharing the risk you will show up at all with those boxes (in 3 years we haven't yet missed a delivery) and paying ahead for produce that we grow. We base our prices on farmers market prices, which are fair retail for organic produce, and MUCH better than wholesale prices. We factor in about $1- extra per box for the packing, newsletter, etc. cost. I don't feel we are undercharging. We had between 175-200 members this year, and hope/plan for about the same this next year. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 22:50:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA18776 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10433; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:49:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10312 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:48:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-226.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.226]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA03091; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:48:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <006a01bf45ff$5a158500$05fd6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , Cc: "CSA list" References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> Subject: Re: sharing the trust Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:49:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 927 Julia wrote: > Will: The problem we face is that the public here in central California > is too spoiled, and they simply aren't willing to take the risk, with a > few exceptions. We don't have enough hours in the day to do that much I am afraid we/they are all spoiled. I was just telling my husband about this discussion and I said where a previous post (this list or sanet) stated that they amount of food people buy out, by out I mean take out eat out or grocery store take out is X% and I don't remember exactly but I believe it was 50% or more of their food dollars. That is amazing. How can we education someone to buy raw food when they can not cook. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 23:02:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18893 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA12581; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:01:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [165.227.128.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12455 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:00:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from 165.227.129.78 (sa-165-227-129-78.cruzio.com [165.227.129.78]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id UAA09902; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:00:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <385560AB.286B@mariquita.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 21:10:03 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hook Family CC: CSA list Subject: cooking References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> <006a01bf45ff$5a158500$05fd6ed1@guldann> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 928 Yes, The ability and willingness to cook screens out many many people from joining our CSA. It is also the #1 reason people stop our CSA. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 23:19:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19151 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14361; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:18:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14271 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:17:39 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 4649 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 04:17:33 -0000 Received: from i48-40-33.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.62.161) (216.26.62.161) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 04:17:33 -0000 Message-ID: <3855B6AE.4B5D@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:17:06 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Split Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 929 Thanks for your responses! Julia Wiley wrote (in part): We don't have enough hours in the day to do that much education, although we do as much as we can. Supermarkets, Farmers markets, health food stores large and small, they are all doing a better and better job. I feel it *is* a CSA if the folks pay for the whole season (about 10% of our members) or even just 10 weeks at a time. They are sharing the risk you will show up at all with those boxes (in 3 years we haven't yet missed a delivery) and paying ahead for produce that we grow. We base our prices on farmers market prices, which are fair retail for organic produce, and MUCH better than wholesale prices. We factor in about $1- extra per box for the packing, newsletter, etc. cost. I don't feel we are undercharging. We had between 175-200 members this year, and hope/plan for about the same this next year. Julia @@@@@@@ First, I agree that most "Supermarkets, Farmers markets, health food stores" are doing a better job of education than we are. Do you think they are not charging for it? Do you think they take their educational costs out of their profits? Of course they are doing a better job - they recognise that education (factual information factually presented) and advertising (information designed to encourage people to buy your product or service) are essential. It is part of their operating budget, not something they "don't have enough hours in the day" for. (Education and advertising are not always different - in an ethical operation they can be identical.) Second, I don't believe pre-paying is what constitutes CSA. If pre-paying is all it takes, then most catalog sales and virtually all special orders from retail stores would constitute CSA, not to mention most wholesale food buying clubs. Third, I have already written my thoughts about pricing - what others charge is irrelevant! Charge what you need to to make a fair living (and to pay any employees a living wage, too!) You "don't feel we are undercharging" but don't have the resources to educate. It seems to me that you either don't realize that education is an integral part of your business, you are misallocating your income, or you are mistaken about undercharging. I suspect the last. And to say that farmers market prices are fair prices for organic produce shows a willingness to keep subsidizing a cheap food policy. Do you believe that farmers at farmers markets make a fair return for their investment and effort? I've never found it so. And finally, and most important, congratulations on your hard won successes. No form of farming is easy. Actually, even hard would be an improvement - farming is a very tough way to live. If you are still farming you are a success! I simply question what constitutes a CSA as opposed to some other type of operation. I hope you can find the resources to devote to education in coming seasons. @@@@@@@@@@@ "Full time farmer in Maryland" wrote We too have a split operation, in fact it is split three ways-restaurant sales, markets, and CSA. In order to keep the spirit and intent of the CSA we limit the number of shares we offer (40) only though we could do many more. The CSA fits in with our production schedule (tuesday's) while the market is on the weekends. The restaurant sales do not conflict at all as most of what we sell to restaurants would not be crops CSA folks recognize or want (e.g. purslane, bunched mizuna, fava beans, golden/white beets etc.) The restaurant sales are much more reliable and last longer (March with mache until mid-December) Our Csa runs only from mid May through October. Believe it or not it all fits, there is no conflict and it makes sense from a diversity and profitablity side. My two cents worth... @@@@@@@@@@ It may appear fine until something happens. What if your well goes out and you can only haul enough water to irrigate half your crops? What if disease wipes out half your tomato starts? how about severe slug damage, or an infestation of cabbage moth? Who goes without? Either your income drops or you sell at market what you should supply to the CSA operation. In either case are you fairly sharing the risk? Oone penalizes you, the other your subscribers, neither ends up in an equitably shared risk. If you want to sell to restaurants, try this: sell them harvest shares! It works for us. As for seasons, why can you grow longer for restaurants then you can for the CSA folks? We deliver all year long. What we deliver, the breadth of variety, narrows in the winter and early spring, but even then we deliver 10-15 different things each week. You season may be shorter than ours, but why is it shorter for the CSA operation than for restaurants? @@@@@@@@@@@@ Julia Wiley also wrote (in part): The problem we face is that the public here in central California is too spoiled, and they simply aren't willing to take the risk, with a few exceptions. @@@@@@@ I've lived in Central California. Try living in the retail area qith the highest precentage of disposable income in the West (and perhaps the entire country!) That's Portland. We've heard it all, from why can't we take orders each week and deliver that week to demands for fresh corn on June and Avacadoes in November. Some people will never be CSA people, some need education. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 13 23:27:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19226 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 23:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA15040; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:26:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA14974 for ; Mon, 13 Dec 1999 22:26:02 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 6913 invoked from network); 14 Dec 1999 04:25:58 -0000 Received: from i48-40-33.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.62.161) (216.26.62.161) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Dec 1999 04:25:58 -0000 Message-ID: <3855B8A7.737A@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 20:25:32 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hook Family CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: sharing the trust References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> <006a01bf45ff$5a158500$05fd6ed1@guldann> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 930 Teach them to cook! Of course, in a lot of cases that means all you have to do is rinse and chop. Not too hard to convey. And once they know that, give them recipes along with the food. We actually distribute a "Harvest Shareholders' Handbook" - tips on handling deliveries, rinsing, storing, preparing, etc. to each Harvest Shareholder as part of out welcoming package. We also distribute a recipe book to them late each year. The book is a collection of the weekly recipes, our favorites from the past, and recipes sent in by our Harvest Shareholders. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 14 07:07:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA22496 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA11088; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:05:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA10719 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 05:58:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-184.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.184]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA17585; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:57:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00b401bf4643$b69f2760$05fd6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: Cc: References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> <006a01bf45ff$5a158500$05fd6ed1@guldann> <3855B8A7.737A@teleport.com> Subject: Re: sharing the trust Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:57:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 931 > Teach them to cook! Of course, in a lot of cases that means all you have > to do is rinse and chop. Not too hard to convey. > > And once they know that, give them recipes along with the food. I have thought of having classes. Of course I still see these as ways to KEEP members not so much attract new ones. Two main reasons I haven't one pure procrastination, and two I was too darn tired to cook myself (garden salad is great) never mind teach! However if my handyman builder schedule remains as he told me my kitchen will be redone by summer so I'll have a nice place to hold classes anyway. But I am leaning toward preservation classes ie relishes and freezing. I think people would be real pleased with themselves to sit down to a meal in winter and eat stewed tomatoes and frozen veggies over pasta :). Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 14 09:25:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24034 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 09:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18823; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:24:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [165.227.128.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18694 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:23:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from 165.227.138.3 (sa-165-227-138-3.cruzio.com [165.227.138.3]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id GAA27143; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 06:23:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3855F29A.1423@mariquita.com> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 07:32:43 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: osalt@teleport.com CC: CSA list Subject: Re: sharing the trust References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38551527.27AE@mariquita.com> <38557292.5EA8@teleport.com> <38555942.33A9@mariquita.com> <006a01bf45ff$5a158500$05fd6ed1@guldann> <3855B8A7.737A@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 932 Yes, I agree it's partly our job to teach them to cook. And we do! Below is one of our newsletters, with lots of recipes, info etc. I spend between 2-3 hours each week on our newsletter, and we feel it's worth et. Many of our members rely on the newsletter. -- Oct. 20, 1999_______________________________________ Volume 109 This week: baby carrots, Empire apples, green leaf lettuce, chervil, cabbage, summer squash, cherry tomatoes, tomatoes, Belgian white carrots BOXES!!!We do reuse them, and they cost over $1 each. Please do return them each week or leave them at the pickup sites. thanks. French Cooking for Horses a note from Andy Many of you may end up agreeing with the English that the white carrot is best served raw, unwashed, with the greens still on...to horses. This is a vegetable that can put the "root" back into the term "root vegetable." It's not nearly as crispy as an orange carrot and while it can grow incredibly long the white carrot has a tendency to woodiness. So why grow it at all? The seed was sold to me as Belgian White Carrot seed which is a fanciful but inaccurate name since the white carrot is native to most of central and northern Europe. The undomesticated twin of the white carrot is the wild carrot known as 'queen Anne's lace." The name Belgian White does give us a clue as to who eats the domestic queen Annes lace, and nowadays it is usually considered a food crop only on the continent and where it's grown anywhere else it's usually grown as a fodder crop. The vegetable was once more widely eaten since it is one of the parents of the modern orange carrot, the others being the wild Persian purple carrot and the yellow Afghani carrot. The types were probably crossed in the 1600's to create the original orange carrot. Growing this carrot has been an interesting lesson for me. Like many plants that are closer to their wild state the white carrot has grown more vigorously than the orange carrots I planted next to them. The white carrot has proven to be more disease resistant and insect resistant. I like it as a cooked carrot better than I've ever liked cooked orange carrots but then again cooked orange carrots have always made me gag. And please try the recipes. The white carrot won't disappoint if you don't come to it with expectations that it be a modern salad carrot. It is an honorable root crop and still has a role in the modern kitchen. If you don't have the patience to cook it then serve it in the English style to your favorite horse, cow or goat. Later in the season we will conclude our study of carrots by having the red carrot which is the tamed version of the wild Persian purple carrot and we will have the orange chantenay which is an older orange type. The baby carrot is a modern French type called babette. I checked and my goats also like "babette" served a la mode anglais. ___________________________________________________________________ Vegetable notes: Chervil is the classic herb for flavoring such foods as salmon, trout, potatoes, spinach, carrots, and green beans. Chervil also goes well in salads with other herbs, like dandelion, chives and sorrel. In the middle ages in Europe, chervil was eaten raw in salads to renew the blood. Many modern herbalists recommend chervil as an aid to digestion. To try it, sprinkle a tablespoon of fresh chervil leaves on a serving of green salad and eat with a meal. (From The Good Herb by J. Hurley) Chervil is a delicate herb and should be used within a few days, and kept chilled until then. I know Andy has a tendency to make huge bunches, if you don't expect to use it all: share with a friend or make a chervil salad. Recipes from Julia WHITE CARROTS: These can be used where root vegetables are called for. You can augment your mashed potatoes, put them in a stew, or roast them with potatoes, beets, and the like. Below is a simple recipe that was a hit at my house. I've also added a few parsnip recipes below, you can substitute white carrots for the parsnips called for. I asked Andy the difference between white carrots and parsnips and he assured me there was a difference, I haven't yet figured it out. White dinner carrots for dinner Slice white carrots thin into coins. Cook on highish heat with garlic in a bit of oil or butter for a few minutes. Add a dash of honey or sugar if a sweetness is desired. Fresh Chervil Relish For use as a soup garnish, sandwich spread, or with warm or chilled trout or salmon. 1 cup chervil leaves 2 T fresh lemon juice 2 T minced red onion 1 T olive oil Combine all ingredients in food processor and whirl until finely minced. Baked Potato Salad with Chervil 3 # baking potatoes 3 green onions 2 T minced red onion 1/4 cup plain yogurt 2 t coarse brown mustard 2 T minced chervil Rinse the potatoes and poke each with a fork. Bake, right on the oven rack at 500 degrees until just tender, 45-60 minutes. Meanwhile, combine the green onions, red onion, yogurt, mustard and chervil. Let the potatoes cool on a wire rack, to keep them from getting soggy, until theyre cool enough to handle. Cut them into slices and add to the yogurt mixture. Combine gently with a rubber spatula, so the slices dont crumble; its ok if a few break. Serve warm or slightly chilled. Salsa Verde (from Vegetarian Cooking for Everyone by D. Madison) Chop fine together: 2 bunches parsley, 1 bunch chervil, 3 T capers, grated zest of 1 lemon 2 garlic cloves, 3/4 cups olive oil, 3 T lemon juice, salt and pepper. Eat with crackers, fish, eggs, chicken, cucumbers, pizza, etc. Tender Mixed Salad Insalata mista Tenera from Verdura by V. La Place 1 head tender lettuce 2 small carrots, peeled and grated 1 small fennel bulb, trimmed and cut into fine julienne 3-4 green onions, trimmed and cut into fine julienne 1 large, crisp tomato, cut into small chunks salt and pepper to taste Extra-virgin olive oil imported red wine vinegar Detach lettuce leaves from the core. Wash and dry well. Tear the leaves into bite-sized pieces and place in a salad bowl. Add the remaining prepared vegetables. Season with salt and pepper to taste. Drizzle with olive oil and vinegar, and tos. Correct the seasonings and serve immediately. HONEY, IT'S PARSNIPS 1 1/2 lb Parsnips or white carrots-- peeled and -diagonally sliced into -1/2" pieces 3/4 c Water 1/2 ts Salt 2 tb Butter 1 tb Honey 1/4 c Orange Juice 1 t Orange Peel -- grated In a saucepan, cook parsnips in water and salt over medium heat until fork-tender, about 10 minutes. Drain and remove from pan. In same pan heat butter, honey, juice and orange peel together; toss with parsnips and a little salt, if desired. Serve hot. Source: Medford Mail Tribune, 10 January 1995 BUTTERED FRIED PARSNIPS 2 lb Parsnips or white carrots 4 tb Butter 1/8 ts Nutmeg Salt & Pepper -- To Taste 1 tb Parsley -- Chopped Wash, trim and scrape the parsnips. Cut into uniform pieces and boil in salted water, 25 to 30 minutes or until tender. Drain well, and let dry. Just before serving, heat the butter in a skillet and saute over moderate heat until light brown on all sides, letting the parsnips caramelize a little in their own sugar. Season with the nutmeg, salt and pepper and serve in a warm vegetable dish, garnished with parsley. (White Carrots)PARSNIPS IN MELTING MUSTARD SAUCE 1 lb Medium parsnips or white carrots, peeled and -halved lengthwise 3 tb Butter 2 tb Dijon mustard 1 t Honey 3 tb Bourbon Salt Freshly ground black pepper Chopped fresh parsley From "Greene on Greens" by Bert Greene Preheat the oven to 375'F. Cook the parsnips in boiling salted water until just tender, about 5-8 minutes. Drain. cut each parsnip lengthwise into 1/4"-thick slices. Place them in a buttered shallow baking dish in a single layer. Bake 10 minutes. Melt the butter in a small saucepan over low heat. Slowly add the mustard, honey and bourbon. Cook 5 minutes. Brush this sauce evenly over the baked parsnips. Sprinkle with salt and pepper to taste. Place the parsnips under a preheated broiler to lightly brown, about 1 minute. Sprinkle with parsley and serve. PEPPER CABBAGE 4 c Shredded Cabbage 2 tb Vinegar 1 md Shredded Green Pepper 2 tb Sugar 1 tb Thin Sliced Onion 1/2 ts Celery Seed 1 sm Shredded Carrot 1/2 ts Pepper Contributed to the echo by: Janice Norman PEPPER CABBAGE Stir sugar and vinegar together in mixing bowl to partly dissolve sugar. Toss vegetables, celery seed, and pepper with sugar & vinegar mixture. Refrigerate for at least one hour to soften vegetables. Stir frequently. Cabbage with a zesty flavor prepared with a sugar and vinegar sauce. Served most frequently with fish, chicken, and as a luncheon side dish. Stores well several days in a refrigerated closed container. CURRIED CABBAGE 1 lg Onion -- finely chopped 6 tb Oil 1 lg Tomato -- sliced 2 ts Cumin, ground 1/2 ts Turmeric 2 Carrots -- sliced in rounds 1 md Cabbage -- finely sliced 1 Green bell pepper -- chopped 1/2 c Water salt and pepper In a large shallow pan with a lid, saute the onion in the oil over a moderate heat until it is lightly browned. Now add the tomato, salt, spices and continue to cook for 2-3 minutes, stirring frequently. Next put in the carrots and cook for 5 minutes. Then add the cabbage and bell pepper and mix well. Pour in the water, cover the pan and simmer until all the liquid is absorbed and the vegetables are cooked. The New Internationalist Cookbook_ by Troth Wells QUICK APPLE CRISP from Anne S. in Santa Cruz oven 375F Cut a bunch of apples (peeled or not) into a pie dish, until it's full or you use up all your apples. Blend 1 cup flour, 1 cup brown sugar and 1 stick butter in a mixer (add a bit of cinnamon if you like), with a fork, or your fingers - blend until crumbly and mostly mixed. Press the topping firmly over the apples, covering the entire surface of the dish. Bake for about 45-60 minutes, until the topping seems nice and the apples are soft (poke 'em with a fork to check). Serve warm or cold. Yum! ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 14 14:02:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29645 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 14:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06015; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:01:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA05881 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:00:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from jps.net (216-224-152-136.stk.jps.net [216.224.152.136]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27467 for ; Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:00:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <38569509.68D46FEA@jps.net> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 12:05:42 -0700 From: Richard Roth X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Response References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 933 Will Newman II wrote: > I believe that the mutual sharing of risk and bouty inherent in CSA > precludes selling to any other market: if your Harvest > Shareholders put up the money to operate the farm then what you produce > is theirs. There is nothing to take to market. I know of no equitable > way to "split" an operation between CSA and any other market. I did that for 2 years - made a net profit of about $2500.00/year. Now I sell "fancy peaches" for outrageous prices. I regularly put up a sign that says "WARNING - APPROACH WITH CAUTION - VERY EXPENSIVE PEACHES! - and still sell out. (I have only 98 trees with 5 varieties - early to late season.) My 24 subscribers take home up to 12 lbs of seconds per week each, and get boxes of "messy peaches" - bird pecks, etc. if they want to put a bunch up. They seem happy. I also sell about half of my potato crop at $1.00 to $1.50/lb. My subscribers get 3 lbs per week as soon as the pototoes are big enough to dig- about the end of May - til the delivery or pickup before Thanksgiving - making about 60 lbs of potatoes/subscription. My "season" ends on Thanksgiving. They also get a fairly large bunch of carrots every week for 3 or 4 weeks before the season ends. Then after Thanksgiving I sell much smaller bunches of carrots for $1.50/bunch. All subscribers get a free bunch of carrots every week after the season ends for stopping by my market stand and saying hi. I had a crop failure last year, but it was my fancy peaches. I grew extra watermelon for my subscribers. I guess I am saying that I wouldn't be farming if I relied on just the subscription money. I don't want more subscribers - it is hard enough for me to keep track of 24 families, and I think I lose some of the intimacy I feel for my families when I get more. (I have had as many as 40.) I also love the slack season when I do not have to worry about getting vegetables together every week for them, just dig and wash carrots one day/week and then sell them the next day at market. > Fifth, (Jim again - "As with good wine and other things of quality, you > probably can't sell a fifty-dollar Bordeau in a community that's just > fine with the $2.98 Boone's farm.") Reminds me a bit about the shoe salesman that went to some populous third world country, and after a couple weeks called his boss ready to quit and come home, complaining that it was impossible to make a living there because: "nobody wears shoes in this country!" -- Richard Roth rfarm 1318 Bruce Street Chico, CA 95928 Ph:(530) 895-1672 . From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 07:47:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13416 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA08182; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:46:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA08063 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 06:45:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.40] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD066ED0264; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:43:50 -0500 Message-ID: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: CSA vs subscription farming Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:47:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF46D0.A2F3ECE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 934 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BF46D0.A2F3ECE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000E_01BF46D0.A2F3ECE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01BF46D0.A2F3ECE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It seems to me there is a difference in CSAs & subscription farming. I = understand Will's point that in a true CSA, the "harvest shareholders" = should share the risk/share the bounty, and that other marketing = shouldn't be done. Personally, I'm not going to give a group of people = that much control over my farm. I bought this land, and have worked = HARD (& am still working HARD) to make it produce. The shareholders = names are not on my deed. So I guess what Will is trying to say that = "subscription farming" is what most folks are doing. I'll remember this = when I begin my CSA next year. I do not understand, Will, your viewpoint against diversifying markets, = even with CSAs. Your view is ideal, and may work for you. But I have = seen it fail with CSAs AND traditional farming. Our main crops here in = the rural county I live in are soybeans, corn, cotton & tobacco. Since = NC is the land of tobacco, my neighbors have been hit hard by the = tobacco settlement. It was amazing to drive around and see how little = tobacco is being grown this past summer. I know, I know-I don't smoke & = absolutely hate it-can't even be around it-even in convenience stores = when I stop for gas. And yes, I have children I don't want smoking = either. But it's been devastating for those who depended on this one = crop for 90% of their income. 2 farmers saw this coming a few years = ago, and began diversifying. Growing vegetables, berries, plants, sweet = potatoes, melons, etc. They're thriving now, although it's hard to find = any crop that rivals tobacco's income of $5,000 per acre. It isn't = sound business practice to put all your eggs in one basket. Even in my = husband's restaurant, he doesn't just rely on the customers who walk = through the door. He does catering, and outside deliveries, & tour = groups. If you have enough CSA members to EAT everything you grow, = that's great. But the other markets help rid the bounty without = overloading shareholders, and who would not want the farmer getting an = occasional bonus? Even if I have enough members to eat everything I = grow, I will not sign up that many people. Those other markets are a = vital part of farming. I live in an area of 3 military bases. At any = point in time, 2-4,000 people suddenly move in, or out of the area, and = many of them have been my farmer's market customers. What happens if = one year 1/2 your CSA members don't re-sign up? I want those extra = markets. I want to keep my farm going.=20 IMHO Liz Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_001_000E_01BF46D0.A2F3ECE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
     It seems to me there is a difference in CSAs & = subscription=20 farming.  I understand Will's point that in a true CSA, = the "harvest=20 shareholders" should share the risk/share the bounty, and that other = marketing=20 shouldn't be done.  Personally, I'm not going to give a group of = people=20 that much control over my farm.  I bought this land, and have = worked=20 HARD (& am still working HARD) to make it produce.  The = shareholders=20 names are not on my deed.  So I guess what Will is trying to say = that=20 "subscription farming" is what most folks are doing.  I'll remember = this=20 when I begin my CSA next year.
     
    I do not understand, Will, your viewpoint against=20 diversifying markets, even with CSAs.  Your view is ideal, and = may=20 work for you.  But I have seen it fail with CSAs AND traditional=20 farming.   Our main crops here in the rural county I live in = are=20 soybeans, corn, cotton & tobacco.  Since NC is the land of = tobacco, my=20 neighbors have been hit hard by the tobacco settlement.  It was = amazing to=20 drive around and see how little tobacco is being grown this past summer. = I=20 know, I know-I don't smoke & absolutely hate it-can't even be around = it-even=20 in convenience stores when I stop for gas.  And yes, I have = children I=20 don't want smoking either.  But it's been devastating for those who = depended on this one crop for 90% of their income.  2 = farmers saw this=20 coming a few years ago, and began diversifying.  Growing = vegetables,=20 berries, plants, sweet potatoes, melons, etc.  They're = thriving now,=20 although it's hard to find any crop that rivals tobacco's income=20 of $5,000 per acre.   It isn't sound business practice to = put all=20 your eggs in one basket.  Even in my husband's restaurant, he = doesn't=20 just rely on the customers who walk through the door.  He does = catering,=20 and outside deliveries, & tour groups.  If you have enough CSA = members=20 to EAT everything you grow, that's great.  But the other markets = help rid=20 the bounty without overloading shareholders, and who would not want the = farmer=20 getting an occasional bonus?  Even if I have enough members to eat=20 everything I grow, I will not sign up that many people.  Those = other=20 markets are a vital part of farming.  I live in an area of 3 = military=20 bases.  At any point in time, 2-4,000 people suddenly move in, or = out of=20 the area, and many of them have been my farmer's market = customers.  =20 What happens if one year 1/2 your CSA members don't re-sign up?  I = want=20 those extra markets.  I want to keep my farm going.
     
    IMHO
    Liz Pike
     
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firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13627 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09142; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:01:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from mb09.swip.net (mb09.swip.net [193.12.122.212]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09070 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:00:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from [212.151.161.231] (d212-151-161-231.swipnet.se [212.151.161.231]) by mb09.swip.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA15720; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:00:19 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: mg25209@gaia.swip.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:59:45 +0200 To: osalt@teleport.com, Jim Austin From: hans.von.essen@c.lrf.se (Hans von Essen) Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 935 Yes, this is certainly a question many of us are living with. I think the WTO failure in Seattle marks a breaking of a trend. What WTO, and in particular the official US position, is about when it comes to agriculture is to "externalize" costs for producing food. The part that is best at externalizing (in clear writing shovel the environmental costs and costs for other side effects over to tax payers) will produce the cheepest food. As long as that is the goal of the competition CSA - which does the absolute opposite and "internalize" (that is takes responsability for the whole thing) - will have a hard time and will remain a marginal phenomenon. To take one example of this breaking of a trend the idea of global rules to liberalize investments was first rejected by APEC (most vehemently by the civil society of the Philippines) when Clinton first introduced it there. Then it was rejected in OECD, when it slipped out to media and was openly discussed - the infamous MAI. Now EU among other things tried to introduce basically the same idea a third time in Seattle and it was rejected again. This makes me optimistic. WTO has resisted the idea of an impartial investigation of the real effects in the light of sustainable production, biodiversity, poverty and other important goals agreed on at the Earth Summit and in UN conventions. Now chaos threatens as all watch their own interest. This means they think local and act global. We do not want chaos to go too far, because chaos means conflict. Misinformed masses of people that get angry are not good for anyone, but for a skilled populist dictator... The basic idea of locally, ecologically grown food - to exclude agriculture from global free trade and allow each country to restrict imports of food - or in economic language that agriculture wholly internalizes all its costs - or proverbially - that we think global and act local - is probably the only perspective that in the long run can hold conflict from growing out of hand. Throwing light has developed to an effective means to overthrow unsound structures. The propagators of elite globalization cannot really stand a really well founded unbiassed down on the ground understanding if it is combined with the bravery to in the right place and time and in the right way say that the emperor is naked. CSA is a phenomenal way of throwing light because it makes people connect global thinking to real down on earth local action (grow and eat veggies and enjoy life). The essence of cultural life. I am on the one hand a very small subsistance farmer. On the other hand I am a farm advicer and agronomist working with rural development, and my work is spread over the whole of Sweden - and a bit with global networks. Then I am also a consumer and a family father who find it most valuable that I still, in spite of the devastating effects of cheep food policy in my country, can find farms where my daughters enjoy to stay and learn to milk goats and about real farm life. To change the whole food industry is a tremendous task. I do not think anyone can do it on their own arena, with their own means. You will have to play another game altogether. The game of truthfulness. Throw light on the Codex Alimentarius standards and the corruption around food industry, standards and WTO arbitrage. Food industry would not be able to compete if they were not secretly subventioned by tax money. Can you show that in a way so that ordinary people understand the line of thought and get convinced? I think it will not be possible to do what you intend if you play on the same private profit arena as everybody else. You must find a form to work in that reflects this. That is the principle of associative economics that is built into the CSA idea. Farming is so much more than producing food. I think the right time is now. Hans von Essen At 14.54 99-12-13, Will Newman II wrote: >Jim Austin wrote: >> >> Hi folks, Jim again. This was a great thread; thought I'd see if I could get >> it going again. >> >> A few people have asked me what my interest in the topic is, whether I was >> thinking of farming, or switching a farm over to CSA. Well, I've thought >> about becoming a farmer often over the years, but I'm afraid I don't have >> much aptitude for it. I don't mind the hard work part (I carried all my >> firewood for last winter - about five cords - up out of the valley I live on >> the hillside above, an armload at the time; can't get a tractor down there) >> but things die when I touch them. I have a hard enough time keeping my small >> vegetable garden growing. And though I own ten acres, it's on steep >> hillsides, and mostly wooded, and I don't intend to clear it. >> >> Here's why I'm interested: I'm a physicist and a teacher and I'm on >> sabattical for a year, so I've got some time on my hands. My home is in >> Maine but I'm spending the year in Princeton, NJ, home of high-tech >> companies, late-model cars, overpriced real estate, and horrendous traffic. >> I've been thinking about how life would be if we weren't all (not all I >> suppose, but most, around here anyway, and in most of the nation's high-tech >> corridors) living on television, shopping malls, grocery megastores staffed >> with surly teenagers (there's a Wegman's just down the street that's bigger >> than some shopping malls) and frequent purchases of stuff we don't need (how >> many VCR's does a person need?). It's clear to me that this culture isn't >> working; at least it isn't working for anything except generating new >> wealth, which we then spend on more stuff we don't need. It seems to me that >> all that new stuff we're buying is an unsuccessful attempt to mask the >> dissatisfaction that many of us feel with our lives. It's a vicious cycle >> that drives a powerful economy full of fundamentally unhappy souls. >> >> I'm spending my time thinking about what things exist in the world that have >> promise for helping society to change for the better. Community farming, and >> CSA in particular, is at the top of my list. >> >> I'm thinking of this from the consumer's perspective, mainly. If the culture >> is going to be changed for the better, it'll be necessary to harness things >> that are intrinsically, innately, obviously good. Good, locally grown >> organic produce is one of the easiest ways to sell a better lifestyle, since >> the quality is so apparent. Because it tastes good, and people like good >> food. And CSA makes a lot of sense as a way of aquiring it (the produce); it >> also offers, as many of you often point out, a glimpse of a principled, >> respectful way of living that all of us could benefit from. And I like the >> roughness of it, of getting too much, unprocessed, staying up late after the >> kids go to bed putting it up. And how many corporate managers and hotshot >> computer programmers don't think about starting their own farm sometimes >> when their eyes glaze over at the end of a long day in front of a computer >> in a gray-walled cell? You guys are boddhisattvas, gurus of good living. You >> and your products are an easy sell. >> >> I don't know if this will ever happen. I don't know if the timing's right, >> or what form this project will ultimately take. I can tell you that I have >> no intention of seeking a "cut" of the profits. I don't think a non-profit >> can harness the resources that would be necessary to undertake such an >> ambitious project as what I have in mind. I'm talking about making a >> significant improvement in the quality of our culture, and in the lifestyle >> of the average American. Maybe take a good chunk out of that impressive GDP >> by showing people there's more to life. So probably it will need to be a >> business, promising profits to investors, to provide access to the capital >> it would take to reach enough people to make it worthwhile. I can imagine, >> eventually, a demand-driven, radical restructuring of the food industry. But >> there are ways to make money without exploiting farmers. CSA will be only >> one aspect of it, but it could well be an important aspect. >> >> Okay, come on, tell me I'm dreaming. I know it already. But I've got a >> feeling that we're at a critical time. We're approaching the end of what >> will soon be the longest economic expansion in history. A lot of people have >> made a lot of money (not me though). This has been the ultimate experiment >> in whether money can buy happiness, and we all know what the outcome of that >> experiment will be. It can't. The media are full of reports about people who >> are richer than ever before but find their lives unsatisfying, for one >> reason or another. Harried schedules, terrible traffic, not enough time with >> spouses or children. The New York Times called it a "Gilt Complex". >> >> So c'mon, folks. I'll be greatly encouraged if many of you are supportive of >> what I want to do. But if you aren't (and, of course, if you are) please >> tell me why. I intend to read your replies carefully, and take them very >> seriously. What you say will be important in shaping this venture, making it >> go or killing it. So have at it. Let me know what you think. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jim Austin > >It would probably not be a good idea for everyone to be a farmer. There >are so many other worthwhile things that need to be done. You have the >right idea though: each individual can make a difference. Only >individuals can make a difference. The big changes result from the >changing of each of us, one of us at a time. > >If we but grew >>From those who knew >The wonderous things: >The joys of Springs, >The peace of nights, >The Earth's delights. >In truth we'd be >Divine, and free. > >And we do. >And we are. > >Will Newman II >CSA at Natural Harvest Farm >Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust >North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 08:14:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA13746 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09955; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:12:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA09887 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:12:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1c-242.ix.netcom.com [209.110.250.242]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11821; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:12:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004401bf4717$4abbba20$f2fa6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Elizabeth Pike" , References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> Subject: Re: CSA vs subscription farming Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:13:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF46D4.3BAF0480"; type="multipart/alternative" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 936 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01BF46D4.3BAF0480 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0041_01BF46D4.3BAF0480" ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01BF46D4.3BAF0480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Liz and list What I must say to Liz's post is ditto. While we = have not as yet diviersified away from the CSA we plan to. First = plan, we need a barn anyway we are going to include a pick-up area and = farm stand area. Take many of the feelings of this list and sustainable = ag list. The consensus seems to be we NEED(not yelling just emphasing) = small local farms with communities of eaters living and supporting them. = People NEED a conection with how their food is grown. Small farmers = may not survive if they can not direct market, small farmers NEED, = SHOULD, DESERVE a fair wage.=20 Well in our area if most of the local residents wanted to change = their food buying attitudes and wanted to sign up for a CSA they would = be unable, never mind farmers there is not enough land. Plus as we have = discussed everyone isn't suited to joining a CSA. So I see a farm stand = and even farmers markets as another avenue of community embracing its = local farms. NEVER will our CSA members suffer, as someone else just wrote they do = not always want to share in the bounty or at least not indefinately :). = And her members were going to mutiny if she gave them another cabbage = with my group it was zucchini. If these people are not preserving their = food and have no one close to give their food too they don't need much = extra. Even tomatoes all of us could not wait for tomatoes but even = after a few weeks of major bounty I heard noises about what am I going = to do with all these. Next year I am going to allow a bit more custom = fill your own from bins type of pick-up I suspect I will have even more = left behind.=20 I just think you can, just like in families, treat everyone equal and = have everyone (all the markets) enjoy for what in some areas is sadly = become increasingly rare, food sold to you by the person/s who grew it. = Beth Liz wrote But the other markets help rid the bounty without overloading = shareholders, and who would not want the farmer getting an occasional = bonus? Even if I have enough members to eat everything I grow, I will = not sign up that many people. Those other markets are a vital part of = farming. I live in an area of 3 military bases. At any point in time, = 2-4,000 people suddenly move in, or out of the area, and many of them = have been my farmer's market customers. What happens if one year 1/2 = your CSA members don't re-sign up? I want those extra markets. I want = to keep my farm going.=20 IMHO Liz Pike pike@always-online.com ------=_NextPart_001_0041_01BF46D4.3BAF0480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    Dear Liz and list What I must say to Liz's post is ditto. While = we have=20 not as yet  diviersified away from the CSA  we plan = to.  First=20 plan, we need a barn anyway we are going to include a pick-up area and = farm=20 stand area.  Take many of the feelings of this list and = sustainable ag=20 list.  The consensus seems to be we NEED(not yelling just = emphasing)=20 small local farms with communities of eaters living and supporting = them. =20 People NEED a conection with how their food is grown.  Small = farmers may=20 not survive if they can not direct market, small farmers NEED, SHOULD, = DESERVE=20 a fair wage. 
     Well in our area if most of the local residents wanted to = change=20 their food buying attitudes and wanted to sign up for a CSA they would = be=20 unable, never mind farmers there is not enough land.  Plus as we = have=20 discussed everyone isn't suited to joining a CSA.  So I see a = farm stand=20 and even farmers markets as another avenue of community embracing its = local=20 farms.
    NEVER will our CSA members suffer, as someone else just wrote = they do not=20 always want to share in the bounty or at least not indefinately = :).  And=20 her members were going to mutiny if she gave them another cabbage with = my=20 group it was zucchini.  If these people are not preserving their = food and=20 have no one close to give their food too they don't need much = extra. =20 Even tomatoes all of us could not wait for tomatoes but even after a = few weeks=20 of major bounty I heard noises about what am I going to do with all=20 these.  Next year I am going to allow a bit more custom fill your = own=20 from bins type of pick-up I suspect I will have even more left=20 behind. 
     I just think you can, just like in families, treat everyone = equal=20 and have everyone (all the markets) enjoy for what in some areas is = sadly=20 become increasingly rare, food sold to you by the person/s who grew=20 it.  
    Beth
     
    Liz wrote
     
    But the other markets help rid the bounty without overloading=20 shareholders, and who would not want the farmer getting an occasional=20 bonus?  Even if I have enough members to eat everything I grow, I = will=20 not sign up that many people.  Those other markets are a = vital part=20 of farming.  I live in an area of 3 military bases.  At any = point in=20 time, 2-4,000 people suddenly move in, or out of the area, and many of = them=20 have been my farmer's market customers.   What happens if = one year=20 1/2 your CSA members don't re-sign up?  I want those extra = markets. =20 I want to keep my farm going.
     
    IMHO
    Liz Pike
     
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firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16107 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28198; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:31:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f255.hotmail.com [216.32.180.213]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28046 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:30:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 34588 invoked by uid 0); 15 Dec 1999 15:30:05 -0000 Message-ID: <19991215153005.34587.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 168.169.188.233 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 07:29:58 PST X-Originating-IP: [168.169.188.233] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: A Couple of Thoughts Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:29:58 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 937 I have also been enjoying the recent threads on "just what is a CSA, what makes it different from Subscription Farming (if it _is_ different), its connection to WTO (if it _is_ connected)". These are all questions I've asked as an individual, as a farmer, and as somebody who got grabbed by the CSA concept many years ago. Here are some of the ways I've addressed them for myself -- I'm not trying to tell anybody else how they should do things. One of the beauties of CSA is its flexibility and ability to fit the needs of almost any person or group. At Ash Grove Community Farm, the whole system is our CSA. We define a CSA as any farm where people are invited to participate in the workings and life of the farm -- at any level. Our basic memberships are open to anyone at a very low price ($25 per year or five hours of work on behalf of the farm -- not necessarily at the farm). For some of our members, reading a newsletter and saying hello to the person who grew the carrot is just about as exotic as they are ready to be. We make a special effort to reach out to these folks, and to make it easy for them to become more adventurous. They represent the 98% of people who eat without a clue. All of our other operations are separated into cooperatives, worker-owned businesses, and not-for-profit programs that people can choose to be involved with or not. The main resource shared by all of these is the farm (and me), presently donated while I support myself with off-farm work. I hope to some day turn ownership over to the CSA membership through a not-for-profit land trust that buys it, and to receive a fair salary for my services -- at least as much as I could earn off the farm for the same skillset. I'm not locked into the idea that I have to own this land in order to steward it. Of course, it hasn't been in my family for generations! Different strokes for different situations. Brief breakdown: Ash Grove Community Farm (not-for-profit association) Organic Gardens Cooperative Pack & Dairy Goat Cooperative Poultry Cooperative Affordable Housing Cooperative Horse & Pony Rescue Cooperative Firewood Cooperative Organic Gardening Supplies Cooperative Licensed Nursery Worker-Owned Business Specialty Foods (canned & frozen) Worker-Owned Business Dried Herbs Worker-Owned Business Weekend Retreats (NFP) Parent & Teacher Resource Center (NFP) Latchkey Youth Program (NFP) Classes & Workshops & Weekend Seminars (NFP) Farmer's Marketing Network and Mall Farmer's Market (NFP) Wildlife Refuge (NFP) Note that the six-acre garden co-op is what most folks think of when they hear "CSA" -- as our friend Hans Van Essen (and others) have said many times, and as we are challenged to explain to our communities, a farm is much, much more than just a place where food is produced. If we aren't rising to that challenge, why are we doing this? Anybody who would like to get a copy of our 50-page member handbook with complete descriptions of our operation can do so by becoming a paid one-year member. Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 11:58:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02455 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13930; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:57:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from serval.noc.ucla.edu (serval.noc.ucla.edu [169.232.10.12]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13771 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:57:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from ucla.edu (davidk.biology.ucla.edu [128.97.133.15]) by serval.noc.ucla.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA09216; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 08:57:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3857C9A2.1D341590@ucla.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:02:27 -0800 From: David King X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dori Green CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Paying for: A Couple of Thoughts References: <19991215153005.34587.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 938 So, Dori, where would an interested individual send their 25 bucks for annual membership to get the manual? I'm sure there is more than one "interested individual" out there... david Dori Green wrote: > I have also been enjoying the recent threads on "just what is a CSA, what > makes it different from Subscription Farming (if it _is_ different), its > connection to WTO (if it _is_ connected)". > > These are all questions I've asked as an individual, as a farmer, and as > somebody who got grabbed by the CSA concept many years ago. Here are some > of the ways I've addressed them for myself -- I'm not trying to tell anybody > else how they should do things. One of the beauties of CSA is its > flexibility and ability to fit the needs of almost any person or group. > > At Ash Grove Community Farm, the whole system is our CSA. We define a CSA > as any farm where people are invited to participate in the workings and life > of the farm -- at any level. Our basic memberships are open to anyone at a > very low price ($25 per year or five hours of work on behalf of the farm -- > not necessarily at the farm). > > For some of our members, reading a newsletter and saying hello to the person > who grew the carrot is just about as exotic as they are ready to be. We > make a special effort to reach out to these folks, and to make it easy for > them to become more adventurous. They represent the 98% of people who eat > without a clue. > > All of our other operations are separated into cooperatives, worker-owned > businesses, and not-for-profit programs that people can choose to be > involved with or not. The main resource shared by all of these is the farm > (and me), presently donated while I support myself with off-farm work. I > hope to some day turn ownership over to the CSA membership through a > not-for-profit land trust that buys it, and to receive a fair salary for my > services -- at least as much as I could earn off the farm for the same > skillset. I'm not locked into the idea that I have to own this land in > order to steward it. Of course, it hasn't been in my family for > generations! Different strokes for different situations. > > Brief breakdown: > > Ash Grove Community Farm (not-for-profit association) > Organic Gardens Cooperative > Pack & Dairy Goat Cooperative > Poultry Cooperative > Affordable Housing Cooperative > Horse & Pony Rescue Cooperative > Firewood Cooperative > Organic Gardening Supplies Cooperative > Licensed Nursery Worker-Owned Business > Specialty Foods (canned & frozen) Worker-Owned Business > Dried Herbs Worker-Owned Business > Weekend Retreats (NFP) > Parent & Teacher Resource Center (NFP) > Latchkey Youth Program (NFP) > Classes & Workshops & Weekend Seminars (NFP) > Farmer's Marketing Network and Mall Farmer's Market (NFP) > Wildlife Refuge (NFP) > > Note that the six-acre garden co-op is what most folks think of when they > hear "CSA" -- as our friend Hans Van Essen (and others) have said many > times, and as we are challenged to explain to our communities, a farm is > much, much more than just a place where food is produced. If we aren't > rising to that challenge, why are we doing this? > > Anybody who would like to get a copy of our 50-page member handbook with > complete descriptions of our operation can do so by becoming a paid one-year > member. > > Dori Green > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 13:43:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04086 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA25224; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:43:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25093 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:42:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.66] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A0CD3BE7024C; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:41:17 -0500 Message-ID: <009701bf472c$7a2bfee0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:44:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF4702.9027D720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 939 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF4702.9027D720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm interested, too, Dori!! That's a great idea! Tell us where to = send the $25! Liz=20 Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF4702.9027D720 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
      I'm interested, too, Dori!!  That's a great idea!  = Tell us=20 where to send the $25!
     
    Liz
    Morningstar Gardens
    ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01BF4702.9027D720-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 13:53:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA04240 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA26050; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:52:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25950 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:52:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-103.premier1.net [207.149.54.103]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id KAA10519 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:46:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003b01bf472e$664aa960$673695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: References: <38556372.611F@teleport.com> <38569509.68D46FEA@jps.net> Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Response Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 10:58:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 940 ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Roth To: Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Pricing Commodities Response > I know of some CSAs out there that are strictly CSA, nothing else, not a subscription farm, and no other markets. They (in my experience) are on a land trust of some sort, and the everyday financial worries we other stick scratchers have to deal with are not as much of a problem. I say more power to them, but in essesence this thread is trying to solve the problem with two very different equations. In my mind there are CSAs and there are farmers who have a subsription to their farm. I would not make enough money to support myself in my area,( nor would I want to because I would have to very large and thus lose intimacy with my members), if I were strictly CSA. I prefer selling my excess produce to customers directly at Farmer's Markets. I do not advertise as a CSA. That is a misrepresentation I feel. We are a subscription farm and only once did I have a member want us to be a CSA farm. CSA as a concept and a reality, is a worthwhile productive means to achieving something we've all found lacking lately within our food supply. However, as an individual, I probably would never join a CSA. I'm not a joiner, I might get too busy, and I probably would have a lot of my own food growing in my back-yard. There are a lot of my types out there, just as there are a lot of CSA'ers out there as well: two options available to achieving a connection to the food supply. Farmer's markets are another. I have many loyal customers buying my food every week, but not wanting to be involved any further than that. I appreciate their support, but would never dream of thinking it should be more. It is at their level of comfort zone and I understand that. Another note, we also never put our eggs into one basket. We have the veggies, a sizable laying flock (300-400), fruits and berries and nuts, and meat birds. I wouldn't want to rely on just one or even two of those crops to pay the bills. > > Will Newman II wrote: > > > I believe that the mutual sharing of risk and bouty inherent in CSA > > precludes selling to any other market: if your Harvest > > Shareholders put up the money to operate the farm then what you produce > > is theirs. There is nothing to take to market. I know of no equitable > > way to "split" an operation between CSA and any other market. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 14:04:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA04478 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27289; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:03:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27145 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:02:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.8.149.133] [198.69.131.196] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id A770F2B0128; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:09:36 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <004401bf4717$4abbba20$f2fa6ed1@guldann> References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:02:09 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: Re: CSA vs. subscription farming Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 941 While we just grow for our shareholders, and while we don't intend to sell to restaurants and markets (why not just add more shares with the time involved? - for us it is a more stable market) we do, sometimes, have a problem with excess produce. This year we had overwhelming crops of sweet peppers and eggplants. And as week followed week of 'all you can eat' for these two vegetables, many of the shareholders got somewhat irritable. This phenomenon has been mentioned by several others. Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or Saturday at a market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 15:16:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06115 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA05352; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:15:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05154 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:14:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.66] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A65352E018A; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:13:07 -0500 Message-ID: <003301bf4739$4eb117c0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Freezing Bees Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:16:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF470F.64F01380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 942 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF470F.64F01380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Leigh wrote: >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes, have a problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned by = several others. Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or = Saturday at a market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)?< Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community canners/freezers to = help with this? We could have canning or freezing bees like the = quilters used to. (But of course, this would only work for those things = that taste good frozen or canned.) This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's market, I took my = unsold excess to a low income housing development for the elderly. = These people loved having me show up in my farming truck & duds with = these wonderful veggies they remember from their own home gardens of = long ago. Even had 2 give me some heirloom seeds that had been in their = families many years. No one else in the family gardened/farmed. I = don't believe in years past that excess produce was ever a problem!! For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with a list = of places to take donations of excess produce such as this. IMHO Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF470F.64F01380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Leigh wrote:
    >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes,  have = a
    problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned by = several=20 others.  Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or = Saturday at a=20 market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)?<
     
    Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community = canners/freezers to=20 help with this?  We could have canning or freezing bees like the = quilters=20 used to.  (But of course, this would only work for those things = that taste=20 good frozen or canned.)
     
    This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's = market, I took=20 my unsold excess to a low income housing development for the = elderly. =20 These people loved having me show up in my farming truck & duds with = these=20 wonderful veggies they remember from their own home gardens of long = ago. =20 Even had 2 give me some heirloom seeds that had been in their families = many=20 years.  No one else in the family gardened/farmed.   = I don't=20 believe in years past that excess produce was ever a = problem!!
     
    For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with a = list=20 of  places to take donations of excess produce such as this.
     
    IMHO
    Morningstar Gardens


     
      ------=_NextPart_000_0030_01BF470F.64F01380-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 15:58:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06680 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09433; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:56:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f9.hotmail.com [216.32.181.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09350 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:56:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 23159 invoked by uid 0); 15 Dec 1999 20:55:26 -0000 Message-ID: <19991215205526.23158.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 12:55:26 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Paying for: A Couple of Thoughts Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 15:55:26 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 943 In the interests of security, I do not post my full mailing address on the website or in newsgroups or to e-mail lists. If anybody would like to receive the snailmail address for Ash Grove Community Farm please send me a private e-mail. This way I know to whom I've released the information. Thanks, Dori Green >From: David King >To: Dori Green >CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org >Subject: Re: Paying for: A Couple of Thoughts >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 09:02:27 -0800 > >So, Dori, > >where would an interested individual send their 25 bucks for annual >membership >to get the manual? I'm sure there is more than one "interested individual" >out >there... > >david > >Dori Green wrote: > > > I have also been enjoying the recent threads on "just what is a CSA, >what > > makes it different from Subscription Farming (if it _is_ different), its > > connection to WTO (if it _is_ connected)". > > > > These are all questions I've asked as an individual, as a farmer, and as > > somebody who got grabbed by the CSA concept many years ago. Here are >some > > of the ways I've addressed them for myself -- I'm not trying to tell >anybody > > else how they should do things. One of the beauties of CSA is its > > flexibility and ability to fit the needs of almost any person or group. > > > > At Ash Grove Community Farm, the whole system is our CSA. We define a >CSA > > as any farm where people are invited to participate in the workings and >life > > of the farm -- at any level. Our basic memberships are open to anyone >at a > > very low price ($25 per year or five hours of work on behalf of the farm >-- > > not necessarily at the farm). > > > > For some of our members, reading a newsletter and saying hello to the >person > > who grew the carrot is just about as exotic as they are ready to be. We > > make a special effort to reach out to these folks, and to make it easy >for > > them to become more adventurous. They represent the 98% of people who >eat > > without a clue. > > > > All of our other operations are separated into cooperatives, >worker-owned > > businesses, and not-for-profit programs that people can choose to be > > involved with or not. The main resource shared by all of these is the >farm > > (and me), presently donated while I support myself with off-farm work. >I > > hope to some day turn ownership over to the CSA membership through a > > not-for-profit land trust that buys it, and to receive a fair salary for >my > > services -- at least as much as I could earn off the farm for the same > > skillset. I'm not locked into the idea that I have to own this land in > > order to steward it. Of course, it hasn't been in my family for > > generations! Different strokes for different situations. > > > > Brief breakdown: > > > > Ash Grove Community Farm (not-for-profit association) > > Organic Gardens Cooperative > > Pack & Dairy Goat Cooperative > > Poultry Cooperative > > Affordable Housing Cooperative > > Horse & Pony Rescue Cooperative > > Firewood Cooperative > > Organic Gardening Supplies Cooperative > > Licensed Nursery Worker-Owned Business > > Specialty Foods (canned & frozen) Worker-Owned Business > > Dried Herbs Worker-Owned Business > > Weekend Retreats (NFP) > > Parent & Teacher Resource Center (NFP) > > Latchkey Youth Program (NFP) > > Classes & Workshops & Weekend Seminars (NFP) > > Farmer's Marketing Network and Mall Farmer's Market (NFP) > > Wildlife Refuge (NFP) > > > > Note that the six-acre garden co-op is what most folks think of when >they > > hear "CSA" -- as our friend Hans Van Essen (and others) have said many > > times, and as we are challenged to explain to our communities, a farm is > > much, much more than just a place where food is produced. If we aren't > > rising to that challenge, why are we doing this? > > > > Anybody who would like to get a copy of our 50-page member handbook with > > complete descriptions of our operation can do so by becoming a paid >one-year > > member. > > > > Dori Green > > > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 17:59:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12714 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 17:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA25390; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:56:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [165.227.128.37]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25297 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:56:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from 165.227.137.59 (sa-165-227-137-59.cruzio.com [165.227.137.59]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id OAA19461; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 14:56:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3857BC4E.1B69@mariquita.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:05:35 +0000 From: Julia Wiley Reply-To: csa@mariquita.com Organization: Mariquita Farm X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leigh Hauter CC: CSA list Subject: Excess produce References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 944 We've traded excesses with other local CSAs: carrots for peaches, potatoes for pears. It works in our area because there are several CSA operations around here, and we are all friendly with each other. We did did this twice this season, put it in the newsletter, and the members of all the farms involved loved increasing the variety in their boxes, while still knowing just where this food came from. Julia -- ______________________________________ Mariquita Farm Organically grown herbs, berries & specialty vegetables P. O. Box 2065 Watsonville, CA 95077 (831)761-3226 http://www.mariquita.com e-mail: csa@mariquita.com _______________________________________ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 19:28:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13778 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07935; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:27:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07664 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:26:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 17013 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 00:26:14 -0000 Received: from i48-15-02.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.5.130) (216.26.5.130) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 00:26:14 -0000 Message-ID: <38582229.4C5B@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 16:25:51 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth Pike CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSA vs subscription farming References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 945 Elizabeth Pike wrote: > > It seems to me there is a difference in CSAs & subscription farming. > I understand Will's point that in a true CSA, the"harvest > shareholders" should share the risk/share the bounty, and that other > marketing shouldn't be done. Personally, I'm not going to give a > group of people that much control over my farm. I bought this land, > andhave worked HARD (& am still working HARD) to make it produce. > The shareholders names are not on my deed. So I guess what Will is > trying to say that "subscription farming" is what most folks are > doing. I'll remember this when I begin my CSA next year. I don't see how CSA gives others control over your farm. I don't know what you mean by "subscription farming", but perhaps it is what most people calling themselves CSA growers are actually doing. > > I do not understand, Will, your viewpoint against > diversifyingmarkets, even with CSAs. Your view is ideal, and may > work for you. But I have seen it fail with CSAs AND traditional > farming. Our main crops here in the rural county I live in are > soybeans, corn, cotton & tobacco. Since NC is the land of tobacco, my > neighbors have been hit hard by the tobacco settlement. It was > amazing to drive around and see how little tobacco is being grown this > past summer. I know, I know-I don't smoke & absolutely hate it-can't > even be around it-even in convenience stores when I stop for gas. And > yes, I have children I don't want smoking either. But it's been > devastating for those who depended on this one crop for 90% of their > income. 2 farmerssaw this coming a few years ago, and began > diversifying. Growing vegetables, berries, plants, sweet potatoes, > melons, etc. They're thrivingnow, although it's hard tofind any > crop that rivals tobacco's income of$5,000 per acre. It isn't sound > business practice to put all your eggs in one basket. Even in my > husband's restaurant,he doesn't just rely on the customers who walk > through the door. He does catering, and outside deliveries, & tour > groups. If you have enough CSA members to EAT everything you grow, > that's great. But the other markets help rid the bounty without > overloading shareholders, and who would not want the farmer getting an > occasional bonus? Even if I have enough members to eat everything I > grow, I will not sign up that many people.Those other markets are a > vital part of farming. I live in an area of 3 military bases. At any > point in time, 2-4,000 people suddenly move in, or out of the area, > and many of them have been my farmer's market customers. What > happens if one year 1/2 your CSA members don't re-sign up? I want > those extra markets. I want to keep my farm going. > > IMHO > Liz Pike > pike@always-online.com I'm not against diversified markets. I think selling into many different markets is a great way to increase a farm's chances of surviving. When we teach our "Successful Small Farming" course we spend a great deal of time on various markets, and encourage people to diversify. Saying that sticking to the core principles of CSA is an "ideal" dismisses the value of the principles. I do not object to splitting an operation between some kind of direct marketing that perhaps is best called "subscription farming" and other markets. What I object to is people splitting their markets and then saying they are running a CSA operation, because they are not. I don't claim they are bad people, or bad growers, or that CSA is better than any other way to market, simply that CSA has certain key characteristics and shouldn't be redifined by those who don't care for (or cannot work with) some of the principles. To do so is like claiming to be biodynamic but spraying pesticides because you can't raise apples where you are if you don't, or don't use the preparations because you don't have time. You are free to spray if you want, and not to use biodynamic preparations if you don't have the time, but don't then call your operation biodynamic. Farming is a tough life, and I praise anyone making it in farming, but don't destroy the meaning of CSA because you don't want/don't care/can't manage to meet it's core principles. I encourage all growers to explore possibilities, to expand your knowledge and skills, and to share what you find with the rest of us. I applaud all the diverse ways we are trying to make small scale farming work. But, just as we don't want Monsanto redefining organic, we should respect what CSA means and not try to redifine it. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 20:52:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14451 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28255; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:51:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA28124 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 19:50:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.121]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA414 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:50:11 -0500 Message-ID: <005501bf4769$a372a140$79c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: jim & why isn't csa bigger Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:02:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 946 hi jim well, the first thing i have to say is farm!! just get out there & seed it. Like the 70's, you plant it & it will grow-really! i can't even grow hair-jean luc picard look out! & i still manage to grow some humble veggies. the hill side is better than you think. a good south west slope will extend your season, & give you cover in bad weather. DON'T even think of clearing the land! our 100 acres is 45 acres of hills & bumps^^^^. dig up a strip where you want to plant, & plant it-leave a buffer zone of a few inches & the surrounding grass, etc. will act as a good anchor-you won't lose top soil down the hill, and you may fend off some pests by the sheer fact that they won't find your crops. also, we planted pumpkins, squash & many other "trailers" on our hill sides & all that survived were large & beautiful. Now, all the guilt in the world won't make any of us leave what we perceive to be the "right life" or the "good life". BUT, the real desire to live, breathe, & eat well, was enough for us... i am not a dot.com millionaire, or even a hunderdaire for that matter, & somehow everytime i think of all those little shoots coming through the ground, or the fact that we don't even get 1 t.v. channel out here, makes me grin from ear to ear. :) zone 5 ontario good luck in whatever you decide From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 21:04:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14942 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA29199; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:03:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29109 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:03:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.76] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A8201D7B0158; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:02:08 -0500 Message-ID: <001901bf476a$11bf04e0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> <3857BC4E.1B69@mariquita.com> Subject: Trading excess produce Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:05:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 947 What a great idea, Julia. That's so smart--if only more CSAs were near me : ( ! Liz Morningstar Gardens pike@always-online.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 21:18:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15100 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA00224; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:17:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00142 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:17:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.121]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA364 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:16:44 -0500 Message-ID: <008601bf476d$58d318a0$79c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: split operations Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:29:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 948 will, i cannot agree with that fact that you think that a csa can only have one market. correct me if i am wrong; i have been following all your posts-in fact i have kept all of the last few days- i have found myself realizing that you sound like a business man-ONLY-not someone who remotely enjoys what they are doing, or is doing it for any reason except the bottom line. I have a bad taste in my mouth from reading that you believe we should not have any outlets other than the csa. The risk is not always shared by shareholders-regardless of what you may say on paper. when our neighbours barn burned to the ground, the shareholders lost most of that season-some of course complained-many understood, BUT... NOT ONE OF THEM SHARED IN THE REBUILDING & PAYING OF THE NEW BARN.I say this to prove a point. THE FARM is the most important unit in the equation. if the farmer feels that in order to survive they need other markets, to diversify, then i completely agree. the ONE MARKET is what each farmer feels works for them. You seem to have it down, excellent. great, i am even a bit jealous-but, i too rely on many outlets in order to get by. the shareholders have let us down, not shown up, not paid on time, bounced cheques....things that happen all the time in our world. all i can say is that we have also let them down at times, & if they were our only source of income & contact-i would rip out what is left of my hair. sorry i rant so much..but if we did not include non-csa income in plans, etc., we could also leave out surviving for next year. about shorting the csa-i believe that if it is because of low supply, it is unavoidable. we have also had shareholders return food days later because they can't stomach another broccoli or cabbage-is this a part of being unethical too? the returns? i can recommend that processing the extra bounty has brought us much needed income at lean times-during our hail storm this july-we lost over 40% of our crops-i processed all the torn, or pocked fruit & veggies & made some fabulous preserves, etc. ok done zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 23:06:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16055 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA08660; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:05:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.7]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08536 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:04:37 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id 2.0.da3d7d85 (3857); Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:03:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.da3d7d85.2589be8b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:03:23 EST Subject: Re: CSA vs subscription farming To: osalt@teleport.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 949 << I encourage all growers to explore possibilities, to expand your knowledge and skills, and to share what you find with the rest of us. I applaud all the diverse ways we are trying to make small scale farming work. But, just as we don't want Monsanto redefining organic, we should respect what CSA means and not try to redefine it. >> Thank you Will, This thread has helped me realize that my definition of CSA is similar to any definition of "Sustainable Agriculture". I receive no help from my subscribers. I sell excesses at the local Farmers' Market. I teach interns about urban agriculture but not "harvest shareholders". Most of my subscribers are Microsoft Executives, Litigators, Politicians, Artist, Writers and MDs. They do not have the time nor interest in participation on a community farm. They want to support local agriculture and eat well, so they pony up the funds to help a local farm survive. They introduce me to family members as "Their Farmer". Many people drive very slowly by our farm to show their visitors our farm in the city. But none of them would raise a finger to keep the farm going if it hit financial straights. So I have diversified to try and prevent that situation from happening. My diversity indicates that indeed my operation is a Community Supported Agriculture in an urban setting. I do the best with the resources and tools I have. We have actually decreased our subscriptions so we can focus more attention and energy toward our value added product line of herbal soaps and skin creams. The profit margin is five times higher and we are not getting any younger. Land taxes continue to go up as the City requires more services for the new residents and I have to make the payments or leave. I have been recognized by the City Council and County Commissioners as an urban farm which acts as a waste remediation center while producing a healthy, local and organic food supply. But I doubt if I'll ever earn true community support for open green space. I don't qualify for an agricultural easement assessment because my two city lots are less than two acres. Many citizens think ball fields constitute multipurpose open space. We are up against a steep learning curve. If we are to survive and teach we have to exercise diverse markets. Nothing in life is black or white. Defining CSA by narrow parameters is as misleading as defining sustainable agriculture narrowly. My greatest example of CSA is my farm. It is diverse, sustainable and flexible. The concept of CSA is diverse, sustainable and flexible. The citizens and politicians of our community have recognized our operation as a distinguished "green" business. We are educating by example. We offer agricultural learning experiences to everyone interested in learning and only by their capacity to learn. We have no failures. Only different levels of understanding. Perhaps in an enlightened society we could meet the criteria you have suggested. But the reality of here and now dictates that we take baby steps and survive to teach again tomorrow. Kind regards, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 23:32:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16756 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA10443; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:30:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA10373 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:30:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-105.premier1.net [207.149.54.105]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id UAA26474 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:24:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002901bf477f$1dd9e0a0$693695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: References: <003301bf4739$4eb117c0$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Freezing Bees Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:36:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF473C.0EAB9940" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 950 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF473C.0EAB9940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Elizabeth Pike=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:16 PM Subject: Freezing Bees Leigh wrote: >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes, have a problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned by = several others. Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or = Saturday at a market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)?< Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community canners/freezers = to help with this? We could have canning or freezing bees like the = quilters used to. (But of course, this would only work for those things = that taste good frozen or canned.) This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's market, I took my = unsold excess to a low income housing development for the elderly. = These people loved having me show up in my farming truck & duds with = these wonderful veggies they remember from their own home gardens of = long ago. Even had 2 give me some heirloom seeds that had been in their = families many years. No one else in the family gardened/farmed. I = don't believe in years past that excess produce was ever a problem!! For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with a = list of places to take donations of excess produce such as this. IMHO Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens What a wonderful idea! AT two of our farmer's markets the local food = bank comes by at the end of the day and picks up donations. It's = wonderful for us, we don't have as much to haul back, and it's going to = a good place. Sometimes in the middle of the week after a member pick = up, we will take excess to the food bank in our town. They are always = so grateful for the produce. Not much fresh produce is given to food = banks and they really appreciate it. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation Wa =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF473C.0EAB9940 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Elizabeth=20 Pike
    Sent: Wednesday, December 15, = 1999 12:16=20 PM
    Subject: Freezing Bees

    Leigh wrote:
    >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes,  = have=20 a
    problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned = by=20 several others.  Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday = or=20 Saturday at a market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus=20 of)?<
     
    Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community = canners/freezers to=20 help with this?  We could have canning or freezing bees like the = quilters=20 used to.  (But of course, this would only work for those things = that=20 taste good frozen or canned.)
     
    This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's = market, I took=20 my unsold excess to a low income housing development for the=20 elderly.  These people loved having me show up in my farming = truck &=20 duds with these wonderful veggies they remember from their own home = gardens of=20 long ago.  Even had 2 give me some heirloom seeds that had been = in their=20 families many years.  No one else in the family=20 gardened/farmed.   I don't believe in years past that = excess=20 produce was ever a problem!!
     
    For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with = a list=20 of  places to take donations of excess produce such as = this.
     
    IMHO
    Morningstar Gardens


     What a wonderful = idea!  AT two=20 of our farmer's markets the local food bank comes by at the end of the = day and=20 picks up donations.  It's wonderful for us, we don't have as much = to haul=20 back, and it's going to a good place.  Sometimes in the middle of = the=20 week after a member pick up, we will take excess to the food bank in = our=20 town.  They are always so grateful for the produce.  Not = much fresh=20 produce is given to food banks and they really appreciate = it.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation Wa
     =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF473C.0EAB9940-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 15 23:55:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA16886 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA12175; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12026 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 22:54:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from ms121960 (user-2iniimg.dialup.mindspring.com [165.121.74.208]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAB05478 for ; Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:54:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <023a01bf4781$875c7540$b84c79a5@ms121960> From: "Sarah Milstein" To: "csa-l" Subject: definition of CSA Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 23:53:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 951 Nothing like the off-season for a lively discussion on farming! I've been following this thread avidly since Jim started it with a question about why the CSA movement isn't larger. I keep thinking, "Oh, I've got to respond to *that* message in this thread, definitely!" and then I don't have a chance, because this is not my off-season. I'm a core group member of Roxbury Farm CSA. I live in New York City, where Roxbury has 230 members. The farm is about two hours north of the city, and I wind up going up there at least 6 - 10 times per year, for meetings, social visits, festivals. Roxbury has just completed its tenth sesason of deliveries in NYC. I used to work for Just Food, a New York City non-profit organization that has a program to help start up CSA groups in the city by facilitating relationships between urban residents and regional farmers. While I was there, we helped about ten CSA groups come together, all but one of which has continued through this past season. Since I left (a little more than a year ago), Just Food has helped a few more CSA groups start up, and they have done some significant work to make CSA partnerships viable in low-income communities (for farmers and residents). I mention all this to give you a sense of my perspective, and to explain that I was one of the primary organizers of the 1997 Northeast Regional CSA Conference, which drew about 400 people two years ago (a second NE CSA conference was just held last month). In deciding on the workshops topics and the general thrust of the conference, the six of us who were organizing it spent several *months* trying to come to some agreement over what CSA is, and what, therefore, would be appropriate (and non-exclusionary) to present. The organizers included two farmers, two very progressive extension agents and two members/CSA activists. We were all very involved in the CSA movement and in our individual groups. Our debate in defining CSA covered every aspect of the question. And we had a very, very long discussion (spanning a few weeks) over whether a farm that has outlets other than its CSA members is still a CSA farm. We finally agreed that the central idea of the CSA model is one that allows every farm and community group to interperet the philosophy according to its own needs and resouces, with the stipulation that some of the farm's customers/members/shareholders make a commitment *ahead of time to support the farm for an entire season*. In some cases, the customers/members/shareholders may not pay ahead of time, but they still make a commitment. We deemed this significantly different from "subscription farming," which we felt implied that the farm sells on a week-to-week or month-to-month, rather than season-to-season basis. There are, of course, farms that manage to blend these two ideas, and for the most part, I think they'd still fall under the CSA rubric. As several people have pointed out, a CSA farm that only sells to its members is not usually a flexible or even workable model. How does that serve farmers and members? I agree with Art that defining CSA narrowly is misleading. And I disagree with Will that people are now trying to "redefine" CSA. As we can see from this list, there is broad interpretation of the CSA definition among farmers and members--a rigid definition of CSA doesn't even exist--and that's not to anyone's detriment. Unlike biodynamic or organic agriculture, which have written, agreed upon guidelines to allow for certification, CSA is a loose social idea. I, for one, would be dismayed to see CSA go in the direction of certification that would allow only a very small set of farms to be refered to as community-supported. Enjoying the exchange, Sarah Milstein From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 07:22:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19679 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA05597; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:21:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA05516 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:21:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-238.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.238]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28107; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:21:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004f01bf47d9$49b77b60$eef86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Robert Ripley" , "CSA list" References: <008601bf476d$58d318a0$79c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Re: split operations Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:21:54 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 952 >Robert wrote below message I have snipped most. I felt I must defend Will I genuinely get the feeling he is not overly concerned with the bottom line but genuinely cares about his CSA and its members. And somehow he has been able to find the right balance of no. of members, cost of share, fair salary (for himself) good. But I still in my heart do not feel that in anyway our community of members is neg. affected. Opposite really. Farm stays CSA stays. One of my members just told me yesterday (she lives down the street) as she walked up for a visit, that she wanted me to know that she loved the christmas lights on "her" chicken coop, "you know I consider it all mine" I loved it. A week ago she bought soybeans the clerk said oh we grow those on "my" farm (she belonged to a CSA), my member said well next year we will grow those on "my" farm. Sounds like some community has been built to me (on 2 CSAs). I honestly donot see how the CSA community is adversly affected if they receive as much and usually more veggies than can can eat, enjoy farm atmoshpere in festivals or hayrides, or weekly newsletters, or face to face chit chat with farmer/s or naming the chickens (on of my kid members named all but one of the chickens), picking their own beans and edible pod peas (had kids wine about being able to stay longer to pick more, a teenage girl said yea when I said oh pick more than that), had one little girl put cherry tomatoes in her pocket...........Beth snipped they are doing, or is doing it for any reason except the bottom line. I have > a bad taste in my mouth from reading that you believe we should not have any > outlets other than the csa. The risk is not always shared by > shareholders-regardless of what you may say on paper. when our neighbours > barn burned to the ground, the shareholders lost most of that season-some of > course complained-many understood, BUT... NOT ONE OF THEM SHARED IN THE > REBUILDING & PAYING OF THE NEW BARN.I say this to prove a point. THE FARM is > the most important unit in the equation. if the farmer feels that in order > to survive they need other markets, to diversify, then i completely agree. > the ONE MARKET is what each farmer feels works for them. You seem to have it > down, excellent. great, i am even a bit jealous-but, i too rely on many > outlets in order to get by. the shareholders have let us down, not shown up, From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 07:36:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19756 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA06335; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:32:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06266 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 06:32:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-238.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.238]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA30576; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:32:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005901bf47da$d8b2c3a0$eef86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Sarah Milstein" , "csa-l" References: <023a01bf4781$875c7540$b84c79a5@ms121960> Subject: Re: definition of CSA Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:33:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 953 > I agree with Art that defining CSA narrowly is misleading. And I > disagree with Will that people are now trying to "redefine" CSA. As we > can see from this list, there is broad interpretation of the CSA > definition among farmers and members--a rigid definition of CSA > doesn't even exist--and that's not to anyone's detriment. Unlike > biodynamic or organic agriculture, which have written, agreed upon > guidelines to allow for certification, CSA is a loose social idea. I, > for one, would be dismayed to see CSA go in the direction of > certification that would allow only a very small set of farms to be > refered to as community-supported. > > Enjoying the exchange, > > Sarah Milstein I very much agreed with Art and Sarah I love the above paragraph. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 08:10:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19999 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08333; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:05:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f272.hotmail.com [216.32.180.196]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08258 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:05:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 62037 invoked by uid 0); 16 Dec 1999 13:04:42 -0000 Message-ID: <19991216130442.62036.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 168.169.188.97 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:04:42 PST X-Originating-IP: [168.169.188.97] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Freezing Bees Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:04:42 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 954 Our bees are cold enough, thanks. Brrr! This year one of the major projects for the Ash Grove CSA is sponsorship of a new farmer's market at the regional food bank warehouse -- farmers get to set up free in the parking lot *****RIGHT NEXT TO THE AREA'S BIGGEST MALL******* in exchange for leaving some leftover produce in the food bank's coolers at the end of the market. The farmers get "fair market value" vouchers for their donations, too. So much nicer than spending a day preparing for market, six hours on my feet selling, and then staying up until 3 in the morning to get the leftovers all into my own dehydrators and freezers or dumping it in the compost pile and stumbling to the house in tears of frustration. We're also starting a worker-owned specialty foods business, using the kitchen of the auction house next door. The business is a community garden member with about ten harvest shares, and worker-owners share the profits in proportion to the time they put into operations after expenses are repaid to the NFP that advanced the startup money. Networks. It's all about networks and experimenting with new (and old) ways of living and working together. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm Corning, NY >From: "Michaele Blakely" >To: >Subject: Re: Freezing Bees >Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 20:36:25 -0800 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elizabeth Pike > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:16 PM > Subject: Freezing Bees > > > Leigh wrote: > >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes, have a > problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned by >several others. Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or >Saturday at a market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)?< > > Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community canners/freezers to >help with this? We could have canning or freezing bees like the quilters >used to. (But of course, this would only work for those things that taste >good frozen or canned.) > > This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's market, I took my >unsold excess to a low income housing development for the elderly. These >people loved having me show up in my farming truck & duds with these >wonderful veggies they remember from their own home gardens of long ago. >Even had 2 give me some heirloom seeds that had been in their families many >years. No one else in the family gardened/farmed. I don't believe in >years past that excess produce was ever a problem!! > > For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with a list >of places to take donations of excess produce such as this. > > IMHO > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > > > What a wonderful idea! AT two of our farmer's markets the local food >bank comes by at the end of the day and picks up donations. It's wonderful >for us, we don't have as much to haul back, and it's going to a good place. > Sometimes in the middle of the week after a member pick up, we will take >excess to the food bank in our town. They are always so grateful for the >produce. Not much fresh produce is given to food banks and they really >appreciate it. > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > Carnation Wa > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 08:19:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA20078 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA09070; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:15:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f280.hotmail.com [216.32.180.134]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA08999 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 07:15:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 63189 invoked by uid 0); 16 Dec 1999 13:14:30 -0000 Message-ID: <19991216131430.63188.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 168.169.188.97 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 05:14:30 PST X-Originating-IP: [168.169.188.97] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: definition of CSA Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:14:30 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 955 Just my own opinions, which y'all know I am always hesitant to share.... #1 - Anybody with the guts to call themselves a CSA should always and forever have the privilege to do so. Farmer or consumer group, it ain't for the timid and I applaud anybody who tries it! #2 - Certified Organic, Organic by Philosophy and General Practice, or Plain Old Farmer can all work as a CSA. What's important is the direct connection -- even a tiny one -- between the farmer and the other people who eat. #3 - The bottom line does count, whether "black" rather than "red" status is achieved by standard business practice or by going the not-for-profit route and living on grants and donations. If it isn't economically sustainable, we just can't call it sustainable. If you're surviving to come back next year, I gotta call that sustainable. #4 - Whatever works. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm Corning, NY ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 09:17:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20627 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 09:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13611; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:13:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from email1-1 (email.mcleod.net [208.16.32.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA13530 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:12:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 36286 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1999 14:12:31 -0000 Received: from 313-a-41-64.ppp.mcleodusa.net (HELO 203-A-35-105.ppp.mcleodusa.net) (208.16.41.64) by email.mcleod.net with SMTP; 16 Dec 1999 14:12:31 -0000 Received: by 203-A-35-105.ppp.mcleodusa.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BF479D.4DFFA3A0@203-A-35-105.ppp.mcleodusa.net>; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:12:33 -0000 Message-ID: <01BF479D.4DFFA3A0@203-A-35-105.ppp.mcleodusa.net> From: REAP International To: "'Hook Family'" Cc: "'CSA Listserv'" Subject: unsubscribe to CSA-L Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 08:12:28 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 956 From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 13:29:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA28764 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 13:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08209; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:28:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08064 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 12:27:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-136.premier1.net [207.149.54.136]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id KAA11222 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:21:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002401bf47f4$1745b5a0$883695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: References: Conversation <003301bf4739$4eb117c0$02000003@default> with last message <002901bf477f$1dd9e0a0$693695cf@pmjb> Subject: Re: Donating produce, etc. Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:33:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 957 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich & Ericka Dana To: Michaele Blakely ; CSAlist Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 11:35 PM Subject: Re: Donating produce, etc. Michael - please post this for me if it doesn't show up on the list - my posts mostly disappear, though they come in alright. (I'm trying to figure this out...) We take extra eggs in winter and extra produce in summer to our local soup kitchen/food distribution center, which is located at a church near our Farmers' Market. The great hing is that this year, they've allowed me to stash a clean, labeled 5 gal. compound bucket in the corner of the kitchen, and they save all of their coffee grounds for me. I'd like to do more of this kind of thing - I have one CSA member who brings me her week's compost neatly packed in one of the ziplock bags I delivered salad mix in. Ericka Dana, Catnip Farm ---------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elizabeth Pike > To: CSA-L@prairienet.org > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 12:16 PM > Subject: Freezing Bees > > > Leigh wrote: > >While we just grow for our shareholders...sometimes, have a > problem with excess produce...This phenomenon has been mentioned by several > others. Any thoughts (besides having to spend my Sunday or Saturday at a > market selling a veggie everyone else has a surplus of)?< > > Wouldn't it be great if we could all have community canners/freezers to help > with this? We could have canning or freezing bees like the quilters used to. > (But of course, this would only work for those things that taste good frozen > or canned.) > > This year, at the end of the day at the farmer's market, I took my unsold > excess to a low income housing development for the elderly. These people > loved having me show up in my farming truck & duds with these wonderful > veggies they remember from their own home gardens of long ago. Even had 2 > give me some heirloom seeds that had been in their families many years. No > one else in the family gardened/farmed. I don't believe in years past that > excess produce was ever a problem!! > > For those of you with CSAs, maybe your members could come up with a list of > places to take donations of excess produce such as this. > > IMHO > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > > > What a wonderful idea! AT two of our farmer's markets the local food bank > comes by at the end of the day and picks up donations. It's wonderful for us, > we don't have as much to haul back, and it's going to a good place. Sometimes > in the middle of the week after a member pick up, we will take excess to the > food bank in our town. They are always so grateful for the produce. Not much > fresh produce is given to food banks and they really appreciate it. > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > Carnation Wa > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 15:36:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00673 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA20605; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:35:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org (mufn.org [198.108.218.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA20377 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 14:34:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from mufn.org ([198.108.218.2]) by mufn.org (wcSMTP [445]) with SMTP id 131071240; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:33:46 GMT Message-ID: <003501bf4805$064b55a0$02da6cc6@mufn.org> From: "Jim and Jo at Five Springs Farm" To: , "Elizabeth Pike" Cc: References: <001101bf46fa$8cb4f120$04000003@default> <38582229.4C5B@teleport.com> Subject: Re: CSA vs subscription farming Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 15:32:15 -0500 Organization: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 958 We think of CSA as being an umbrella concept with a wide range that it can cover. There are certain characteristics that a classic CSA will have, but to refer to core principles in a widely diversified movement is unduly restricting. As an emerging concept there are bound to be many paths to the same, or a similar, goal. Subscription farms are, in many cases (perhaps most) an expression of CSA (in our opinion). Biodynamics, or organic (certified) production have certain institutional or legal status. CSA has no governing body or specific criteria. Lets be open to the diversity! Jo and Jim "The Community Farm" newsletter A Voice for Community Supported Agriculture http://www.gks.com/TCF/ From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 22:29:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA06554 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA06376; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:28:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA06252 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 21:27:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-170.premier1.net [207.149.54.170]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id TAA29888 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:20:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000d01bf483f$6258f5c0$aa3695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: Fw: Food & Agr Day/WTO Views and Analysis Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 19:32:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 959 It's a long one. Some of the articles are for us farm folks, others are just good information. Michaele Blakely Growing Things ----- Original Message ----- From: John Fawcett-Long To: Western SAWG ; wsffn ; foodagrday Sent: Thursday, December 16, 1999 11:54 AM Subject: Food & Agr Day/WTO Views and Analysis > > ===== A message from the 'foodagrday' discussion list ===== > > Views on the 12/2 Food and Agriculture Day and the WTO in Seattle > * Al Krebs, Agribusiness Examiner > * Organic Consumer Association > * Mark Ritchie, Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > * Survey Shows US Opinion Moving Against Free Trade > * Business Week: The Seattle Protesters Got It Right > * Mark Musick, Pike Place Market > * Vandana Shiva, Research Institute for Science, Technology and Trade > Policy > * Bonnie Rice, WA Sust Food and Farming Network > * Rachel's Environment & Health Weekly > * Tom Hayden, long-time activist > > To hear various talks given at the Food and Agriculture Day check out: > www.wtowatch.org. > > Al Krebs, Agribusiness Examiner > FOOD AND AGRICULTURE DAY AND THE "BATTLE OF SEATTLE" > > While the "Battle of Seattle" and the collapse of the recent World Trade > Organization ministerial talks made international headlines scant > attention got paid by the media and the general public to the efforts of > family farmers from around the world to make their voices heard. > > While the labor march drew considerable attention on the opening day of > the WTO meetings other marches and rallys received frustratingly little, > if any, notice from both the established media and the alternative > media. An excellent example was the treatment received by family farmers > and their supporters. > > Thursday had been designated as Food and Ag Day at WTO. Farmers from > more than 30 countries participated in a day-long series of press > briefings, panel discussions and workshops. One of the highlights was a > noon rally to support small farmers that attracted 5,000 people to the > city's historic Pike Place Market. > > Speakers at the rally included Jim Hightower, Ralph Nader, India's > Vandana Shiva, Roger Allison, Helen Waller, Peter Rosset, Uruguay's > Alberto Villarreal, Canada's Corky Evans, and yours truly. Also speaking > at the rally was Jos Bov, the French farmer who's become a leader in > efforts to stop the globalization of genetically engineered foods and > the destruction of local agricultural communities. > > In addition to several hundred farmers from around the country and the > world, the crowd included a broad spectrum of representatives from > environmental, labor, and human rights organizations. None of the > violence that was in evidence in the city during the previous two days > marred Food & Agriculture Day. > > After the rally a large contingent marched over a mile along the Seattle > waterfront to Pier 86 to hold a small peaceful demonstration outside the > fence of a police-encased Cargill grain elevator, leased for the past 30 > years by the nation's largest private corporation from the Port of > Seattle. (See Issue #44) > > The kickoff event of the Food & Ag day activities was a Farmer Breakfast > at the United Methodist Church in downtown Seattle. The breakfast, > hosted by the Vashon Island Growers Association, featured an abundance > of organically grown foods produced by local farmers and drew several > hundred people. > > Following a series of press briefings, panel discussions and the noon > rally, there were workshops in and near the Market on the topics that > included Globalization & Food Safety, Food Security in a Global Economy, > Farm Worker Issues, and Genetic Engineering. These events included > farmers from England, Belgium, Norway, Finland, Japan, Korea, India, The > Philippines, Thailand, Bangladesh, Senegal, Ghana, Uruguay, Mexico, > Brazil, and Peru. > > Participants in Food & Agriculture Day included representatives of the > National Family Farm > Coalition, the French Farmer's Union, the Peasant Movement of the > Philippines, the Japanese > Independent Farmers Union, the Union of Concerned Scientists, Food > First, Northern Plains > Resource Council and both Seattle and Washington Tilth. > > Aside from two and three short paragraphs which appeared in Seattle's > two daily newspapers the > Food and Ag activities went virtually unreported in both the major media > and the alternative media. > Likewise, in the various stories coming out of the "Battle of Seattle" > environmentalists, labor, > consumers, sea turtles, "tree huggers," etc., etc. were all given their > proper due. The hundreds of > farmers from throughout the world who were present were rarely mentioned > as being major > participants in the demonstrations, despite the fact that agriculture > was the centerpiece of the failed > trade negotiations in Seattle. > > > Organic Consumer Association > > 1. Victory At WTO Meeting > In a major setback for the biotech industry, negotiators at last week's > World Trade Organization (WTO) in Seattle were not able to move forward > in establishing rules for exporting US genetically engineered crops to > other countries. > > At the WTO meeting, the announced number one priority for the US Trade > team was agriculture. US Trade negotiators wanted to knock out subsidies > to European farmers, and open foreign markets for US grown genetically > engineered crops. US Trade negotiators failed on both accounts. > > The WTO sets the rules for trade for its 135 nation participants. Most > major countries including the European Union (EU) are requiring more > answers to unknown health and environmental risks of genetically > engineered foods before accepting them into their country. Additionally, > countries like the EU, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and South Korea > have put forth labeling requirements for genetically engineered foods. > > The US Department of Agriculture and the US Trade Office have dismissed > objections to genetically engineered foods in other countries as not > being based on "sound science" and potential "barriers to trade." The US > was hoping to negotiate with other countries and set up a framework for > opening up markets for US genetically engineered foods. > > Early in the meetings, there appeared to be a major victory for the US > Trade team, when the EU proposed putting together a working group on > genetically engineered crops. Such a working group increased the chances > that many of the controversial issues surrounding genetically engineered > crops would be decided based largely on economic considerations. OCA and > other environmental and consumer groups would like to see the issue of > genetically engineered foods settled within the United Nations Biosafety > talks - which are more likely to take into account potential > environmental and human health risks in formulating an international > protocol. Governments will gather next month in Montreal to resume the > U.N. Biosafety talks. > > But by the end of the WTO meeting, the EU proposal on the working group > was withdrawn and declared dead by a delegate from France. An > alternative EU proposal for a broadly focused biotechnology working > group that would consider consumer and environmental concerns was > rejected by U.S. negotiators as unacceptable. This was a major victory > for those fighting against genetically engineered foods and crops > worldwide - and a major defeat for the biotech industry and US Trade > officials. > > For more on what happened in Seattle, check out a website set up by the > Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy - www.wtowatch.org > > > Beyond Seattle > Mark Ritchie, President, Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy > > The recent World Trade Organization (WTO) Ministerial talks in Seattle > failed largely because the negotiation process was undemocratic. > Negotiators from nearly all of Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean > and parts of Asia bitterly condemned the talks as coercive and > exclusionary. Accordingly, these representatives of the South would not > agree to a new round of talks. > > These complaints were not new; in fact, the WTO process has been > described as undemocratic for years, both from the "inside" by delegates > and from the "outside" by non-governmental advocates. In the past, > however, protesting delegations had always been forced by superpower > pressures to go along with the prescribed agreement. > > But this time it was different. There was near unanimity between and > among the key forces: leading Southern country delegates to the > Ministerial and non-governmental representatives inside and outside the > meetings. Several Third World delegates confirmed that they found the > strength to hold to their positions in part from the powerful, > ever-present voice of public protest outside the meeting halls. > > These protests included newspaper advertisements opposing expansion of > the WTO from groups ranging from the Swiss Parliament to the Humane > Society of America. It was the first time, in my memory, where the > developing nations stood fast against the trade agenda of the economic > superpowers. > > The Broader Implications > > "WTO Seattle" was, as the papers called it, the first post-modern global > gathering - both within and outside the Ministerial. Freed from Cold > War-era alliances and constraints, and taking lessons from past trade > agreement failures, the nations of the South combined with > representatives of civil society to write a new chapter in global > governance. > > The outcome creates the possibility of far-reaching change in the WTO, > in the broader Bretton Woods economic system, and in global governance. > Civil society has moved to the center stage in these affairs. > > Inside the WTO, the old process, whereby the United States (US) and > European Union (EU) cut a deal and then imposed it on everyone else is, > I believe, a thing of the past now. Almost all the member countries, > rich and poor, are insisting on a new process - one that is more > inclusive and > democratic. > > At the same time, major changes are needed to include civil society in a > formal way in both future ministerial meetings and in the on-going WTO > process. If the WTO cannot be changed sufficiently to accommodate these > demands from governments and citizens, it will become unmanageable. > > In the broader Bretton Woods system there is already an active > re-examination of the entire system taking place, with literally > hundreds of think tanks and academic institutions working to evolve from > the Bretton Woods system of international economic management. This we > call the "new architecture" for the global economy. Until now, the WTO > has been conspicuously absent from many of these discussions although it > is the third leg of this system, along with the World Bank and the IMF. > Wholesale reform or restructuring of the entire system is now much more > likely in the aftermath of the WTO's organizational failure in Seattle. > > With respect to global governance, I believe that something profound > happened in Seattle. The process of re-examining the framework and > rationale behind the entire system of global governance has taken a > giant leap forward. > > First, the need for global cooperation has never been more apparent. > Protestors and delegates alike raised an impressive range of issues, > nearly all of which will require coordinated action over long distances > and democratic global rules and procedures to address. Those raising > concerns about the loss of species and biosafety wanted to reinforce the > global Convention on Biodiversity. Those concerned with protecting > children from employer exploitation or slavery demanded globally > effective sanctions. > > In some instances, the need was to change existing global rules. An > excellent example is the Nobel Prize-winning group, Doctors Without > Borders, that led an effective campaign "across borders" to convince > delegates to give special global protection to essential medicines from > intellectual property rights. The need for coordination and democracy > across borders was highlighted over and over throughout the ministerial > - both inside and outside. > > Second, we have transformed the "table" of global governance. Civil > society has joined national governments and multilateral institutions in > a full-scale debate on the shape of global decision-making and > governance in the future. In Seattle, the credibility of global > institutions, such as the WTO, as managers of global affairs has been > deeply damaged. National governments were able only to defend their > national interests and were therefore unwilling and unable to tackle > truly global concerns, especially in the environmental and human rights > arenas. The WTO, itself a reflection of these national governments was > deadlocked by the same limited vision and narrow interests. > > A half-century ago, delegates from many nations came to San Francisco to > create the United Nations. They engaged in a great debate over the > opening language of the founding charter for the UN. Many governments > wanted the Charter to declare that "We the governments" of the world > were creating the UN. The representatives of civil society present in > San Francisco fought for language that declared that "We the people" > were creating, legitimizing, and empowering this new global institution. > > The same debate over control of global affairs continues today. In > Seattle civil society said to itself and to the world that global > affairs are much too important to be left up to national governments or > global bureaucracies. We have announced that we are ready to engage in a > dialogue with others concerned with global governance: governments, > businesses, cultural institutions, and social movements. Global > governance has been and will be transformed forever. We find this > historic breakthrough deeply gratifying and inspiring. > > The implication for civil society is enormous. We must find a way to > engage governments and others in a dialogue on how we will organize > global, long-distance and cross-border affairs. And we must develop the > ideas and concepts that can address the problems that led to the > collapse of the WTO talks, including ways to construct democratic debate > and decision-making at this scale. > > The Road From Seattle: Getting Beyond "No" > > Most of the civil society advocates gathered in Seattle were united in > one demand -- opposition to the launching of a new round of trade rule > making by the WTO. > > Almost everyone believed that we needed to take stock of our current > situation and to address very serious shortcomings and problems before > considering whether and how to proceed. In this objective we were > successful. This was, again, a breathtaking victory. For the overall > WTO structure, many groups think we must either "fix it" or "nix it" in > the coming months. > > However, there are key WTO-led negotiations already under way in the > areas of agriculture, services, and the patenting of life that will go > forward despite the collapse in Seattle. We already know that the talks > in these areas will be greatly accelerated in hopes of finding quick > agreements to prove that the WTO is not dead or damaged. > > Particularly in the agricultural area, there is great danger that these > new agricultural talks will make matters even worse for farmers and > fishers, both in the North and in the South. At the same time, the > current WTO rules in agriculture have proven to be disastrous for both > producers and consumers. They must be changed. > > Before Seattle, we had very little hope of making any changes. After > Seattle, the situation has changed completely. If the WTO cannot > deliver a successful agricultural negotiation it may, in some respects, > be placed on "life support." If the WTO continues to refuse to take our > views and concerns into consideration, the outcome will most likely be > unsuccessful and threaten the very survival of the WTO. > > To test this opportunity we need to move quickly. We need an efficient > and inclusive global process over the next months that can hammer out > our ideas in three areas. > > First, we need to determine areas in which we do not desire any WTO > involvement whatsoever. Second, we need to highlight some of the areas > of current WTO rules, such as prohibitions against the dumping of > agricultural exports, where we want the WTO to start enforcing its own > rules. Third, we need to identity key issues on which we want the WTO > to take affirmative action. For example, we want the WTO to prohibit the > patenting of life and essential drugs. > > The victory in Seattle joins the denial of fast track negotiating > authority to President Clinton and the suspension of talks on the > Multilateral Agreement on Investments (MAI) as proof of civil society's > ability to block ill-considered initiatives in the global arena. We can > say clearly what we do not support, and we can stop some of the worst > threats. And we will continue to do so with ever-greater strength. > > But Seattle also demonstrated that we are prepared to express our ideas > on what is needed in terms of global governance and to engage in > constructive dialogue on these ideas with all concerned actors, > including governments, religions, cultures, businesses, and other global > institutions. > > Many of the groups from around the world that came together in Seattle > will continue to work together at an even higher degree of cooperation > on both WTO issues and on other global concerns. Agreements on specific > activities such as the creation of a globally coordinated WTO lobbying > operation and plans for regional and global meetings were hammered out. > Some progress was made on the mechanics for on-going debate and > decision-making, but a lot more work on this is needed. > > Seattle will be remembered for a lot of things, including the courage of > the mostly young people who stood solidly and steadfastly in the face of > a furious assault. My hope is that it will also be remembered as a > watershed event --- a time and place where "we the people" confronted > dysfunctional and oppressive global institutions with new ideas and new > energy. I hope I will be able to look back someday soon and be able to > say that this Battle in Seattle helped jolt the world onto a new path, > one leading towards a just and truly sustainable system of global > governance and world peace. > > > CongressDaily > December 15, 1999 > > Survey Shows U.S. Opinion Moving Against Free Trade ... > A new national survey by Zogby International indicates free trade > supporters may have a more difficult time than previously thought > generating public support for trade legislation. The poll, which > indicates widespread skepticism about unfettered free trade in general; > and about the U.S. trade deal with China in particular — could be > an ill omen for grassroots efforts to convince Congress to approve the > Africa free trade bill, the Caribbean Basin Initiative, and permanent > normal trade relations status for China. And, even worse for business > and White House officials expected to lead the lobbying effort on > permanent NTR, the poll was conducted before the World Trade > Organization meeting in Seattle, where violent anti-WTO protests and the > failure to launch a new negotiating roundpublicized concerns with free > trade. "You are now likely to get a majority of people questioning the > benefits of free trade," said John Zogby, who heads the polling firm. > The survey results "were a lot worse than I expected" for backers of > free trade, Zogby said, adding that popular support for their position > had deteriorated since similar questions were asked two years ago. > > The poll, conducted during early November, has a 3.2 point error > margin. Of the 1,001 people surveyed, 68 percent said it was "better for > America" that "there are barriers put in place to protect U.S. > producers." Alternatively, only 26.1 percent said it is better that > "there is unlimited free trade and open markets." And an overwhelming 83 > percent said that, when entering into trade agreements with other > countries, the United States should "insist the other country meet > environmental, job security and labor condition standards." Only 12 > percent said there should "be no conditions placed on the other > country." When asked whether the United States should insist on better > human rights and religious freedom from China before that country > admitting it to the WTO, 66.5 percent said improved human rights and > religious freedom should come first, while 23.5 percent said a permanent > open market should be established. > > Hoping to build support for permanent NTR and the other > legislation, business groups such as the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and > the Business Roundtable — as well as top administration officials > — have been engaged the past year in public campaigns touting the > benefits of trade. One business official acknowledged more needs to be > done. "Certainly, the poll is a wake-up call," said Bill Morley, chief > trade lobbyist for the U.S. Chamber of Commerce. He vowed, "You will see > a grassroots efforts like never before from the business community on > granting China permanent NTR." The poll will be discussed in Zogby > International's newsletter next week. — by Keith Koffler > > ... As EU Says Friday Meeting Will Downplay Trade Issues > At the bilateral summit between the United States and the European > Union Friday, President Clinton and EU Commission President Romano Prodi > and Finish President Marti Ahtisaari, the current president of the > European Union, will discuss international issues including the > situation in Russia, Eastern Europe, European defense policy and > European enlargement. They will leave trade issues up to trade and > economics officials in a separate meeting, an EU spokesman said today. > The spokesman said Trade Representative Barshefsky and EU Trade Minister > Pascal Lamy will have breakfast together and then meet with other > economics officials at the State Department. Later in the morning, > both political affairs and trade ministers will report to the heads of > state on their meeting. Clinton and the European officials will not hold > a joint news conference, but the EU officials will hold their own > session at the close of the summit, the EU spokesman added. > > Barshefsky and Prodi are expected to discuss following up on the > failed World Trade Organization ministerial meeting in Seattle, as > well as foreign investment, the banana trade dispute, biotechnology and > data privacy, the spokesman said. The spokesman added that it is not > certain if the issue of European imports of U.S. beef will be raised. > But the European Union also expects to raise the issue of noise mufflers > on airplanes taking off from Europe, which has emerged as a possible > barrier to sale of U.S. aircraft in Europe. The Office of the U.S. > Trade Representative did not return a call asking for confirmation of > the discussion list. — by Jerry Hagstrom > > > ECONOMIC VIEWPOINT: The Seattle Protesters Got It Right, by Robert > Kuttner, BUSINESS WEEK, 20 December 1999 > > Global trade politics will never be the same after Seattle. For the > first time, the issue is squarely joined: Shall human rights take their > place alongside property rights in the global economic system? For > advocates of laissez-faire trade, of course, the matter is far simpler. > Those who question ''free trade,'' as The New York Times columnist > Thomas L. Friedman wrote indignantly, are ''a Noah's Ark of flat-earth > advocates.'' The man can mix a metaphor as well as miss the point. > > The point, reduced to its essence, is that capitalism works better as a > mixed system than as a laissez-faire system. For a century, citizens of > Western countries have voted for a mixed system. We prefer a mixed > economy to temper the extremes and inequities of raw capitalism. That's > why we regulate banks and securities markets; that's why we have labor > and environmental laws and social insurance. > > But now, through such institutions as the World Trade Organization and > the International Monetary Fund, the world's investors want to resurrect > the capitalism of the robber baron era--a global charter for property > rights but not human rights. Otherwise, how could China, a one-party > state that jails people seeking free speech or free trade unions, > possibly qualify for membership? Otherwise, why is it permissible to > trample the sovereignty of developing countries to secure U.S. > intellectual-property rights and free capital flows, but not to ban > child labor? > > Commentators such as Friedman confuse two things: the virtue of trade > and the ground rules for trade. Foreign trade, like domestic commerce, > enhances economic growth. But increased commerce does not require pure > laissez-faire. As Jeff Faux of the Economic Policy Institute has > observed, policies that are utterly mainstream in the national context, > such as minimum wages, are deemed controversial when applied globally. > > However desirable cross-border trade may be, it is not the sum and > substance of a democratic society. Friedman also wrote: ''Every country > and company that has improved its labor, legal, and environmental > standards has done so because of more global trade, more integration, > more Internet.'' This would certainly be news to Walter Reuther, Martin > Luther King Jr., or Rachel Carson, not to mention Nelson Mandela or > Thomas Jefferson. The struggle for a decent, democratic, and humane > society has little to do with trade. It exists in an entirely separate > realm--the realm of democratic citizenship--that is now being undermined > by trade. > > Happily, it is democratic citizenship that's challenging the claims of > global laissez-faire, just as it was democratic citizenship that built a > domestic mixed economy. In Seattle, President Clinton called for more > trade, but also for labor and environmental standards, and more openness > in WTO panels. Clinton didn't get a sudden revelation. Rather, he > observed that the labor movement, which reluctantly endorsed Al Gore, is > livid about Clinton's decision to welcome totalitarian/capitalist China > into the WTO. He saw his allies in the environmental movement in the > streets. In short, he changed his tune because of citizen protest. > > NO DEAL. The Administration went to Seattle hoping for a grand bargain: > The U.S. would offer a token committee to gingerly explore labor > standards; the Europeans would stop managing their farm economy; the > Third World would become even more open to global capital flows. The > deal didn't fly. > > A much better deal can be had: Give poor countries some serious debt > relief, as proposed by the world's religious leaders in the Jubilee 2000 > campaign. In exchange, governments of authoritarian countries would have > to embrace minimal standards of decency for their workers and citizens. > Also, raise environmental standards, but accompany this with serious > transfers of technology. Before Seattle, these ideas were not even > debatable. Now they are getting a hearing. > > Even the editorial writers of The New York Times, who routinely champion > the conventional view of free trade, found the words to declare that > ''[the] WTO's 135 members will make a huge mistake if they fail to grasp > the core belief fueling these unruly protests--that the WTO is far too > insular, that it has displayed far too little sympathy for issues such > as workers' rights and the environment, and that its secretive > procedures undermine public trust.'' > > But it isn't the WTO that's insular. The WTO agenda is set by the > world's leading governments, which forgot that they are elected not only > to advance the interests of multinational corporations but also those of > citizens. The author William Greider observes: What a shame that > careful, reasoned argument could not accomplish what was achieved by a > little broken glass. > > > Mark Musick, Pike Place Market > REPORT ON NGO FOOD AND AGRICULTURE DAY IN SEATTLE > > Food & Agriculture Day took center stage yesterday in the citizens' > summit during the WTO in Seattle. It will take time for detailed > reports to be written but, after days of chaos in the streets, for the > family farmers and their supporters the sun finally broke through and > it felt like significant progress was made. > > Farmers from more than 30 countries participated in a day-long series of > press briefings, panel discussions and workshops. One of the highlights > was a Noon rally to support small farmers that attracted 5,000 people to > the Pike Place Market. In addition to several hundred farmers from > around the country and the world, the crowd included a broad spectrum of > representatives from environmental, labor, and human rights > organizations. > > None of the violence that shook the city the previous two days marred > Food & Agriculture Day. > > The kickoff event was a Farmer Breakfast at the United Methodist Church > in downtown Seattle. The breakfast, hosted by the Vashon Island Growers > Association, featured an abundance of organically grown foods produced > by local farmers. > > Following a series of press briefings, panel discussions and the Noon > rally, there were workshops in and near the Market on the topics that > included Globalization & Food Safety, Food Security in a Global Economy, > Farm Worker Issues, and Genetic Engineering. > > Food & Agriculture Day included farmers from England, Belgium, Norway, > Finland, Japan, Korea, India, The Philippines, Thailand, Bangladesh, > Senegal, Ghana, Uruguay, Mexico, Brazil, and Peru. One of the most noted > was Jose Bov, a French farmer who's become a leader in efforts to stop > the globalization of genetically engineered foods and the destruction of > local agricultural communities. > > Participants in Food & Agriculture Day included representatives of the > National Family Farm Coalition, the French Farmer's Union, the Peasant > Movement of the Philippines, the Japanese Independent Farmers Union, the > Union of Concerned Scientists, Food First, and both Seattle and > Washington Tilth. > > As I mentioned, it will take time for people engaged in the heart of > the discussions to write detailed reports on the outcomes. If you have > access to the web, the best place to start on getting authoritative > information and for tracking future developments is the site for the > nonprofit Institute for Agriculture & Trade Policy: > > http://www.wtowatch.org > > Several people commented that yesterday felt like a major turning point > in the decades-long campaign to have the voices of small farmers and > their supporters heard in global trade debates. > > I'm sorry that the surreal scenes of chaos on Seattle streets obscured > the substantive work of grassroots groups from around the world. The > numerous organizations represented in Seattle are returning home with > renewed hope and strengthened connections that are likely to bear fruit > in the weeks and months ahead. > > > THE HISTORIC SIGNIFICANCE OF SEATTLE > by Vandana Shiva > > The failure of the W.T.O Ministerial meeting in Seattle was a historic > watershed, in more than one way. Firstly, it has demonstrated that > globalisation is not an inevitable phenomena which must be accepted at > all costs but a political project which can be responded to politically. > > 50,000 citizens from all walks of life and all parts of the world were > responding politically when they protested peacefully on the streets of > Seattle for four days to ensure that there would be no new round of > trade negotiations for accelerating and expanding the process of > globalisation. > > Trade Ministers from Asia, Africa, Latin America and the Caribbean were > responding politically when they refused to join hands to provide > support to a "contrived" consensus since they had been excluded from the > negotiations being undertaken in the "green room" process behind closed > doors. As long as the conditions of transparency, openness and > participation were not ensured, developing countries would not be party > to a consensus. This is a new context and will make bulldozing of > decisions difficult in future trade negotiations. > > The rebellion on the streets and the rebellion within the W.T.O. > negotiations has started a new democracy movement - with citizens from > across the world and the governments of the South refusing to be bullied > and excluded from decisions in which they have a rightful share. > > Seattle had been chosen by the U.S to host the Third Ministerial > conference because it is the home of Boeing and Microsoft, and > symbolises the corporate power which W.T.O rules are designed to > protect and expand. > > Yet the corporations were staying in the background, and proponents of > free-trade and W.T.O were going out of their way to say that W.T.O was a > "member driven" institution controlled by governments who made > democratic decisions. The refusal of Third World Governments to > rubber-stamp decisions from which they had been excluded has brought > into the open and confirmed the non-transparent and anti-democratic > processes by which W.T.O rules have been imposed on the Third World and > has confirmed the claims of the critics. > > W.T.O has earned itself names such as World Tyranny Organisation because > it enforces tyrannical anti-people, anti-nature decisions to enable > corporations to steal the world's harvests through secretive, > undemocratic structures and processes. The W.T.O institutionalises > forced trade not free trade, and beyond a point, coercion and the rule > of force cannot continue. > > The W.T.O tyranny was apparent in Seattle both on the streets and inside > the Washington State Convention centre where the negotiations were > taking place. Non violent protestors including young people and old > women, labour activists and environmental activists and even local > residents were brutally beaten up, sprayed with tear gas, and arrested > in hundreds. The intolerance of democratic dissent, which is a hallmark > of dictatorship, was unleashed in full force in Seattle. While the trees > and stores were lit up for Christmas festivity, the streets were > barricaded and blocked by the police, turning the city into a war zone. > > The media has referred to the protestors as "power mongers" and "special > interest" groups. Globalisers, such as Scott Miller of the U.S. Alliance > for Trade Expansion said that the protestors were acting out of fear and > ignorance. > > The thousands of youth, farmers, workers and environmentalists who > marched the streets of Seattle in peace and solidarity were not acting > out of ignorance and fear, they were outraged because they know how > undemocratic the W.T.O is, how destructive its social and ecological > impacts are, and how the rules of the W.T.O are driven by the objectives > of establishing corporate control over every dimension of our lives - > our food, our health, our environment, our work and our future. > > When labour joins hands with environmentalists, when farmers from the > North and farmers from the South make a common commitment to say "no" to > genetically engineered crops, they are not acting in their special > interests. They are defending the common interests and common rights of > all people, everywhere. The divide and rule policy, which has attempted > to put consumers against farmers, the North against the South, labour > against environmentalists had failed. > > In their diversity, citizens were united across sectors and regions. > > While the broad based citizens campaigns stopped a new Millennium Round > of W.T.O from being launched in Seattle, they did launch their own > millennium round of democratisation of the global economy. > > The real Millennium Round for the W.T.O is the beginning of a new > democratic debate about the future of the earth and the future of it's > people. The centralized, undemocratic rules and structures of the W.T.O > that are establishing global corporate rule based on monopolies and > monocultures need to give way to an earth democracy supported by > decentralisation and diversity. The rights of all species and the rights > of all people must come before the rights of corporations to make > limitless profits through limitless destruction. Free trade is not > leading to freedom. It is leading to slavery. Diverse life forms are > being enslaved through patents on life, farmers are being enslaved into > high-tech slavery, and countries are being enslaved into debt and > dependence and destruction of their domestic economies. > > We want a new millennium based on economic democracy not economic > totalitarianism. The future is possible for humans and other species > only if the principles of competition, organised greed, commodification > of all life, monocultures, monopolies and centralised global corporate > control of our daily lives enshrined in the W.T.O are replaced by the > principles of protection of people and nature, the obligation of giving > and sharing diversity, and the decentralisation and self-organisation > enshrined in our diverse cultures and national constitutions. > > A new threshold was crossed in Seattle - a watershed towards the > creation of a global citizen-based and citizen-driven democratic order. > The future of the World Trade Organisation will be shaped far more by > what happened on the streets of Seattle and in the non-governmental > (NGO) organisation events than by what happened in the Washington State > Convention Centre. > > The rules set by the secretive World Trade Organisation violate > principles of human rights and ecological survival. They violate rules > of justice and sustainability. They are rules of warfare against the > people and the planet. Changing these rules is the most important > democratic and human rights struggle of our times. It is a matter of > survival. > > Citizens went to Seattle with the slogan "No new round, turnaround". > They have been sucessful in blocking a new round. The next challenge is > to turn the rules of globalisation and free trade around, and make trade > subservient to higher values of the protection of the earth and peoples > livelihoods. > > The citizens' Seattle round of the democratisation of the food system > synthesised common concerns of people from across the world to ensure > that the way we produce, distribite, process and consume food is > sustainable and equitable. In the Third World and the industrialised > world, common principles have started to emerge from peoples practises > to ensure safe and healthy food supply. These principles enable us to > shift to nature-centred and people-centred food systems. > > 1. Diversity rather than monocultures to ensure higher output per acre. > > 2. Decentralisation and localisation in place of centralisation and > globalisation. > > 3. Ecological processes instead of industrial processes of farming. > > 4. Food rights and food security rather than free-trade as the basis of > distribution. > > 5. Democratic control rather than corporate control of the food system. > > 6. Patent-free and genetic engineering free farming to ensure the > respect and protection of all species and the integrity of ecosystems > and cultures. This involves excluding life forms from TRIPS and > Biosafety from W.T.O rules of free trade. > > 7. Cultural diversity in place of the global monoculture of fast foods > and industrial food chains. > > 8. Small farms and small farmers in place of corporate farms and > absentee land owners. This involves protection of existing small farms > and land reforms to redistribite land. > > 9. Fair trade, not free trade, to ensure farmers and producers get a > fair return. Trade as a means rather than end, with global trade > subservient to values of ecological sustainability, health and social > justice. > > Against all odds, millions of people from across the world have been > putting these principles into practice. The post Seattle challenge is to > change the global trade rules and national food and agricultural > policies so that these practices can be nurtured and spread and > ecological agriculture, which protects small farms and peasant > livelihoods, and produces safe food, is not marginalised and > criminalised. The time has come to reclaim the stolen harvest and > celebrate the growing and giving of good food as the highest gift and > the most revolutionary act. > > > "No New Round, We'll hold Our Ground" Thousands Rally in Seattle for > Family Farms and Food Security > Bonnie Rice, WA Sustainable Food and Farming Network > > On December 2nd, thousands of people from across the world came together > for "Food and Agriculture" civil society events associated with the > World Trade Organization ministerial in Seattle. Food and Agriculture > Day was a huge celebration of family farms and local food systems. The > day began with a wonderful farmer-to-farmer organic breakfast; farmers > from many countries came together to share the bounty of Western > Washington farms. Much of the food for the breakfast was grown, > prepared and donated by the farmers of Vashon Island. Following the > breakfast, a press briefing educated many in the media about the WTO's > adverse effects on independent family farmers, rural cultures, and the > ability of countries to grow food for their own consumption. > > Several panels of internationally recognized experts and activists at > the United Methodist Church spoke passionately and eloquently against > globalization and the WTO and outlined the WTO's effects on agriculture. > Speakers from country after country said the same: Trade and investment > policies of the WTO and other institutions such as the World Bank are > destroying small farmers around the world. These policies threaten the > ability of countries to ensure a safe, secure food supply for their > people and the public's right to know how food is produced. > > On a positive note, Anne Schwartz, President of Tilth Producers, > highlighted the many local sustainable and organic projects and > collaborations being formed in Western Washington. She spoke of the > boom in organic and sustainable agriculture, farmers markets, > community-supported agriculture, and new partnerships to support a > local, sustainable food system. > > At noon, the crowd spilled onto the street and marched to Seattle's Pike > Place Market, joining up with several thousand others from all walks of > life - labor, environmentalists, religious groups, human rights > activists and others - to rally for small farms and local food systems. > Ralph Nader, Jim Hightower, Vandana Shiva, Jose Bove and other experts > on the corporatization of agriculture led the rally. It was truly an > inspiring event and proved to the world that people everywhere are > concerned about the effects of globalization, and that they care deeply > about their food source and their ability to obtain food produced in a > sustainable manner by independent, family farmers. > > Following the rally, several hundred people marched north to giant grain > trader Cargill's grain elevator (leased from the public) to protest its > policies and the many recent agribusiness mergers (including Cargill), > which have contributed to the demise of small farmers around the world. > Others participated in several workshops designed to keep the > international dialogue and organizing among farmers going beyond the WTO > Ministerial. > > Washington Sustainable Food & Farming Network members were proud to be > part of this historic day. As with many of the other civil society > events, it was truly inspiring to be part of such a huge gathering of > people from different countries and walks of life who are committed to > family farms, healthy communities, food security, environmental and > social justice and true democracy. The level of international > grassroots organizing for Food and Agriculture day and other events > demonstrates an amazing level of knowledge, skill and commitment to > these issues. The challenge before us lies in continuing our > organizing efforts beyond the WTO Ministerial. I think we're up for it. > > > > RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY > MAKING SENSE OUT OF THE WTO > > As everyone now knows, the World Trade Organization's (WTO) meeting in > Seattle was interrupted by protestors who were mostly peaceful. > Over-reaction by local police led to the "Battle of Seattle." As an > acknowledgment of this over-reaction, the Seattle chief of police has > now resigned.[1] > > The main goal of the WTO's Seattle meeting was to begin a new round of > international talks, the so-called "millennium round," which was > expected to last 3 years. That goal was thwarted. Emboldened partly by > protestors in Seattle's streets, Third World envoys to the WTO rejected > a new round of talks.[2] So the millennium round will not begin, at > least not right away. Delaying the new talks was a sweet victory for > the protesters and an important assertion of independence by Third World > countries. > > But we should not fool ourselves. The WTO is still entirely intact. It > was not changed in any fundamental way by the protests. More > importantly, the goals and the power of those who created the WTO remain > untouched. > > The people who created the WTO have one main goal: an integrated global > economy unencumbered by government restrictions. This economic goal has > two parts: globalized and unencumbered. > > The globalization of the world's economies is proceeding steadily and > cannot be stopped. The world's economies are being laced (or yoked) > together by communication technologies (radio, TV, telephones, fiber > optic cables, satellites and computers, among others). A flood of > invention is inexorably weaving (or chaining) the strands of the world's > economies into a single huge network > of relationships. > > No one can stop globalization from happening. However, governments could > take many steps to reduce the harmful consequences for human > societies.[3] Unfortunately the people who created the WTO are > ideologically opposed to any government involvement. They have their own > utopian vision, a globalized economy unencumbered by government > restrictions -- global free trade. Economists have a name for such an > economy: LAISSEZ FAIRE. In a LAISSEZ FAIRE economy, the owners of > capital are free to make all the important decisions -- they decide what > to make, how to make it, where to get the raw materials, whom to employ > (under what conditions and at what wages), and where to sell their > products or services. In a LAISSEZ FAIRE economy, the role of government > is limited to enforcing property rights, assuring a stable currency, > providing a system of justice for resolving disputes, and maintaining a > military apparatus to enforce civil > and international peace. > > Government has one other key role in a LAISSEZ FAIRE economy: to > maintain such an economy, government must relentlessly thwart democratic > tendencies among the governed. (For example, When President Reagan > destroyed the Air Traffic Controllers union in 1981, he was using the > powers of government to bolster a wannabe LAISSEZ FAIRE regime.) If > governments don't relentlessly oppose democratic tendencies, people will > soon direct their government to (for example) limit the length of the > workday, guarantee their right to form a trade union, insist that > everyone deserves health care, and set minimum wages, all of which doom > laissez faire. This is why laissez faire economies are incompatible > with political democracy: laissez faire economies do not arise > spontaneously and can only be sustained if the state aggressively > suppresses democratic tendencies. > > In sum, the WTO isn't mainly about trade. It is mainly about > establishing the kind of economy, worldwide, in which the owning class > gets to make all important decisions without interference from > governments or from anyone else. Today the key institution of the owning > class is the corporation, so the aim of the WTO is to ensure that > corporations are empowered to make all the important decisions without > interference. > > To put it another way, the main work of the WTO isn't promoting world > trade -- it is getting rid of rules made by governments, rules that > restrict the freedom of corporations to make decisions affecting > production and labor. Government rules are described as "restrictions on > trade" but this "trade" language is a euphemism for "restrictions on > corporate freedom." To summarize, then, the WTO isn't chiefly concerned > with trade -- it is chiefly concerned with "Who gets to decide?" When > governments are weakened, corporations are strengthened. The WTO was set > up to weaken governments. > > There are two other realities that we need to remember, if we want to > make sense out of the WTO: (1) The developed countries have exhausted > many of their reserves of raw materials, and (2) they have built too > much productive capacity, so there aren't enough customers for all the > goods they can produce.[3] Thus, to maintain reasonably profitable > operations, corporations need to mine the Third World's raw materials, > and they need to sell goods and services to people in the Third World. > > Take the U.S. as an example. The U.S. has depleted many of its domestic > reserves of raw materials, such as petroleum, chromium, cobalt, > manganese, nickel, and tin, among others.[4] Therefore, it is important > for U.S. corporations to be free to extract such materials from Third > World countries and ship them elsewhere. Furthermore, the U.S. produces > far more food each year than Americans can eat. So agribusiness > corporations need to "open new markets" in the rest of the world to sell > our excess production, competing head-to-head with local farmers > abroad.[5] When foreign governments are reluctant to import > hormone-treated meat, or genetically-modified corn oil from the U.S., > our agribusiness corporations insist that those governments are > restricting their corporate freedoms and they turn to the WTO to whittle > those governments down to size. > > And of course the U.S. is not alone in this need: Japan, Canada, and the > European Union (EU) have exhausted many of their own raw materials > and/or have built excess capacity, so they too need access to the > mineral reserves and markets of the Third World. > > The WTO has established numerous ground rules that facilitate extraction > and marketing in Third World countries. Under WTO rules, > > (1) governments are not allowed to pass laws that favor local firms and > discriminate against foreign-owned corporations; > > (2) governments are not allowed to prevent foreign nationals from buying > a controlling interest in local companies; > > (3) governments are not allowed to subsidize domestic industries. > For example, Canada is considering asking the WTO to outlaw the U.S. > food stamp program because Canada views the U.S. program as a government > subsidy to U.S. farmers. (Food stamps create a market for food among > poor people that would not exist in a true LAISSEZ FAIRE > economy).[6,pg.164] For its part, the U.S. is demanding that the WTO > outlaw subsidies to farmers in many European countries. These various > claims before the WTO may seem contradictory, but they all serve to > weaken governments, thus enhancing the freedom of corporations. That is > the key idea that elucidates the purpose and behavior of the WTO. > > (4) The WTO's tariff schedules provide for rising tariff rates as value > is added to a product. A tariff is a tax on imported goods. The lowest > tariff rate is set for a raw material. The tariff rate increases for > processed and manufactured goods.[6,pg.137] Thus, furniture manufactured > from local timber in a Third World country faces a relatively high > tariff when it is imported into a developed country. On the other hand, > raw logs exported from a developing country face a relatively low tariff > when they cross the border into a developed country. Thus the WTO's > tariff schedule promotes policies of "rip and ship" in Third World > countries, and discourages those countries from manufacturing. These > WTO tariff schedules can be viewed as a way of "recolonizing" nations > that had won political freedom in recent decades. > > (5) Governments are not allowed to pass laws that would provide > favorable terms of trade to particular trading partners. For example, > through the Lome Convention the European Union (EU) created favorable > terms of trade for some of its former colonies in Africa, the Caribbean, > and the Pacific. Now this arrangement has been successfully overturned > by the WTO. Here are the details:[6,pgs.141-147] > > The EU agreed to buy 8% of all its bananas from Caribbean countries. > These banana sales are crucial to the economies of some of the Caribbean > nations involved. For example, in the Windward Island nations of St. > Lucia, Dominica, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, 94% of all banana > exports go to the EU and bananas account for 63% to 91% of all export > earnings. Caribbean bananas are grown on small family farms set on hilly > terrain, so they are more costly than bananas grown by low-wage labor on > huge Central American plantations. > > The Chiquita company -- a U.S. firm which produces no bananas in the > U.S. but employs thousands of people at rock-bottom wages on plantations > in Colombia, Costa Rica, Honduras and Panama -- supplies 50% of the EU's > banana imports each year. But Chiquita wanted even more market share, so > the corporation donated $500,000 to the U.S. Democratic Party. A few > days later the Clinton/Gore administration filed a complaint with the > WTO on behalf of Chiquita. > > St. Lucia and St. Vincent did not have local experts they could send to > Geneva, Switzerland to argue their case before the WTO, so they hired > outside counsel to represent them. The WTO ruled that only official > government representatives -- not hired experts -- could appear before > WTO tribunals. So St. Lucia and St. Vincent were unrepresented in the > WTO proceedings. > > To no one's surprise, the WTO ruled in favor of the U.S. The EU > initially refused to comply with the WTO ruling, insisting it had a > right and a moral duty to aid its former colonies by providing > a market for their bananas. > > Chiquita then donated $350,000 to the Republican Party and the > Republican-dominated Congress prepared legislation to impose tariffs on > goods imported from the EU as punishment for refusing to comply with the > WTO's ruling. Not to be outdone by the Republicans in currying favor > with corporations, the Clinton/-Gore administration then pressured the > EU into revoking its Lome Convention preferences for Caribbean bananas. > > The Caribbean nations that produce bananas are democratic countries with > long-established traditions of human and worker rights. They have been > good friends to the United States. Now their economies have been > devastated and destabilized by "globalized free trade," basically > sacrificed on the alter of LAISSEZ FAIRE economics and corporate > freedoms.[6,pgs.141-145] > > ========== > [1] Sam Howe Verhovek, "Seattle Police Chief Resigns in Aftermath of > Protests," NEW YORK TIMES December 8, 1999, pg. A13. > > [2] Joseph Kahn and David E. Sanger, "Seattle Talks on Trade End With > Stinging Blow to U.S.," NEW YORK TIMES December 5, 1999, pgs. A1, A14. > > [3] Paul Krugman, THE RETURN OF DEPRESSION ECONOMICS (New York: W.W. > Norton, 1999), ISBN 0-393-04839-X. Krugman recommends controls on the > flow of capital under certain circumstances -- a heresy among the global > free trade cult. > > [4] U.S. Geological Survey, MINERALS YEARBOOK; METALS AND MINERALS 1996, > VOLUME I. (Washington, D.C.: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1998). > > [5] David Barboza, "Is the Sun Setting on Farmers?" NEW YORK TIMES > November 28, 1999, pgs. C1, C14. > > [6] Lori Wallach and Michelle Sforza, WHOSE TRADE ORGANIZATION?: > CORPORATE GLOBALIZATION AND THE EROSION OF DEMOCRACY (Washington, D.C.: > Public Citizen, Inc., 1999). ISBN 1582310017; telephone (202) 588-1000. > > Descriptor terms: free trade; wto; corporations; economics; laissez > faire; bananas; globalization; > > > The Battle in Seattle: What Was That All About? > Tom Hayden, longtime activist, says the protest in Seattle will have a > greater impact than Chicago in '68. > > Sunday, December 5, 1999; Washington Post, Page B01 > > SEATTLE-Comparisons between the World Trade Organization protests here > and the protest movements of the '60s became a media micro-industry last > week. One reporter even asked me, is the pepper spray helping you > relive your youth? My response was that it beats taking Viagra. > > My serious take on the question might surprise you. Based on five days > of joining in protests, marching, being gassed myself, sitting on cold > pavements and hard floors, I have to say I am glad to have lived long > enough to see a new generation of rebels accomplish something bigger > here in 1999 than we accomplished in Chicago in 1968 with our disruptive > protests at the Democratic National Convention. > > Unfortunately, the public has been given a picture of the protests > that's as foggy as tear gas. While the scattered violence got most of > the media attention, the protesters were overwhelmingly committed to > nonviolent action. Of the 587 people arrested, virtually all were > committing acts of peaceful civil disobedience, such as violating curfew > or entering the no-protest zone. > > Events get magnified at close range, and it's impossible to know whether > the protests here have discredited the WTO fatally or will have any > lasting effect. But consider the difference a week can make. I came to > Seattle as a state legislator concerned about the WTO's impact on state > and local government, and it seemed to me that most Americans knew > nothing about the WTO. Now I hear people talking about it with > suspicion. Many Americans said Generation X was apathetic until last > week. Then, in Bill Gates's backyard, protesters, most of them young, > stopped the organization of the new global economy in its > tracks--however briefly--and sent the pundits looking for new > generational labels. > > The 1968 protest in Chicago was the crest of a wave that had been rising > for eight years, through thousands of protests from the civil rights > movement to the anti-war movement. The Seattle protest, rather than > riding a wave, allowed a whole new generation of activists to surface, > bringing attention to one of the world's most powerful organizations. > > In 1968, people expected Chicago to be Chicago--you could see the > protest building. Here, the city and the authorities seemed generally > stunned; the protesters accomplished more with less. > > Seattle will have greater consequences. In Chicago, we were dealing with > a single issue: the Vietnam War. The Seattle activists were confronting > the very nature of the way economics, environmentalism and human rights > are going to be shaped for the rest of our lives. The so-called new > world order has to do with everything: exports, prevailing wages, > sweatshops, sea turtles, the price and quality of food. The Vietnam War > was going to end eventually, but the new world order will not. You'll > either be part of it or you'll be frozen out. > > Clearly another major difference is that the issues that brought the > protesters to Seattle had such broad-based support from labor and > environmentalists--the traditional base of the Democratic Party. > President Clinton, while distancing himself from his role in shaping the > WTO, expressed support for the protesters' goals. This is quite > different from the attitude 30 years ago of President Lyndon B. > Johnson--or the actions of Mayor Richard Daley--toward us anti-war > rebels in the streets of Chicago. > > The Seattle protesters' confrontation was forceful, effective and > innovative. They shut down the WTO meeting, albeit temporarily, by > chaining themselves together in the streets for as long as 12 hours last > Tuesday. Bicyclists recorded the scene with hand-held cameras, enabling > the > organizers to broadcast live on the World Wide Web. They managed to > maintain an attitude more buoyant and carnival-like than violent. Hard > hats walked with nature lovers. Students mobilized in action teams with > names like the Radical Cheerleaders, the Dot.Commies and the > Unarrestables, whose marches were led by a giant puppet of a crying > Buddha. American campuses are still more silent than they were in the > '60s. But the Seattle protesters represent the breakthrough of the vast > hip-hop generation into a public effort to challenge the system. > > To the young people who fasted in jail and froze in the streets, the WTO > represents all they fear about the future. They will not find a home in > the market globalism of Clinton, who appeared tone-deaf by referring to > the protests as "hoopla" while endorsing their goals in the same breath. > Still, they are just as unlikely to be part of Pat Buchanan's anti-WTO > model and narrow nationalist constituency. > > For the first time in memory, the patriotism of the corporate > globalizers is in question, not that of their opponents. Do the Clinton > administration's investor-based trade priorities benefit America's > interest in high-wage jobs, environmental protection and human rights? > Are American democratic values and middle-class interests secondary to > those of transnational corporations? As a grass-roots movement seeking > the overthrow of what it sees as an oppressive system, Seattle '99 was > more like the Boston Tea Party than the days of rage we knew in the late > '60s. > > Tom Hayden, a California state senator, was one of the Chicago 7 > convicted of inciting the riots that disrupted the 1968 Democratic > National Convention. Their convictions were later reversed. > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > John Fawcett-Long, Coordinator > Western Sustainable Agriculture Working Group > 3040 Belvidere Ave SW > Seattle, WA 98126-2223 > 206/935-8738 (tel) > 206/935-1639 (FAX) > > http://www.westernsawg.org > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 16 23:39:10 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07219 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 23:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA11720; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:38:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA11035 for ; Thu, 16 Dec 1999 22:32:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 21315 invoked from network); 17 Dec 1999 04:31:54 -0000 Received: from i48-01-25.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.25) (216.26.2.25) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 17 Dec 1999 04:31:54 -0000 Message-ID: <3859AE92.732F@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 20:31:43 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Ripley CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: split operations References: <008601bf476d$58d318a0$79c3a4cf@accel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 960 Wow! the question that won't die! Robert Ripley wrote: > > will, > i cannot agree with that fact that you think that a csa can only have one > market. correct me if i am wrong; i have been following all your posts-in > fact i have kept all of the last few days- i have found myself realizing > that you sound like a business man-ONLY-not someone who remotely enjoys what > they are doing, or is doing it for any reason except the bottom line. I have > a bad taste in my mouth from reading that you believe we should not have any > outlets other than the csa. The risk is not always shared by > shareholders-regardless of what you may say on paper. when our neighbours > barn burned to the ground, the shareholders lost most of that season-some of > course complained-many understood, BUT... NOT ONE OF THEM SHARED IN THE > REBUILDING & PAYING OF THE NEW BARN.I say this to prove a point. THE FARM is > the most important unit in the equation. if the farmer feels that in order > to survive they need other markets, to diversify, then i completely agree. > the ONE MARKET is what each farmer feels works for them. You seem to have it > down, excellent. great, i am even a bit jealous-but, i too rely on many > outlets in order to get by. the shareholders have let us down, not shown up, > not paid on time, bounced cheques....things that happen all the time in our > world. all i can say is that we have also let them down at times, & if they > were our only source of income & contact-i would rip out what is left of my > hair. > sorry i rant so much..but if we did not include non-csa income in plans, > etc., we could also leave out surviving for next year. > > about shorting the csa-i believe that if it is because of low supply, it is > unavoidable. we have also had shareholders return food days later because > they can't stomach another broccoli or cabbage-is this a part of being > unethical too? the returns? > i can recommend that processing the extra bounty has brought us much needed > income at lean times-during our hail storm this july-we lost over 40% of our > crops-i processed all the torn, or pocked fruit & veggies & made some > fabulous preserves, etc. > > ok done > > zone 5 ontario I grow food (and other stuff) for the same reason a painter paints - because I am incomplete if I don't. I love the sheer joy of walking out the door and taking a deep breath and stretching and knowing life is good. I find fullfillment in getting my hands in the soil. I am amazed every time a seed becomes a plant, becomes a flower, becomes a seed. I could watch ducks play in the pond for hours (and have!) But I also understand business. Someone has to make sure the dishes get washed or we don't get to watch the ducks. Robert, if you price your harvest shares* correctly and you have the right number of harvest shares, your Harvest Shareholders WOULD have paid for your barn - they would have paid for insurance and they would have paid enough for an emergency fund to cover any deductible. If you have not budgeted for these things it is not your people who have failed to provide, it is you who have failed to ask. In the share the bounty, share the risk partnership it is your responsibility to calculate the costs, not theirs. If you have trouble collecting from your harvest shareholders it is up to you to figure out a way that covers you when they don't pay. One way that works is to have them pay for the season up front. This is particularly popular with half-year CSAs. In our case we are a full year program and $900 is a bit much for most people to pay all at once. Besides, it was important to us to try to make our deliveries available to regular working folks. In fact, one of the reaons we went to delivery was so we could provide food to those without cars (we're 25 miles from each of our two main markets.) We cycle in June. People pay $300 up front and $100 each month for 6 months. That wat we have 1/3 of our income up front (when a lot of the expenses come) and we are always ahead of the cost curve: if somebody doesn't pay we simply drop them and add someone from our waiting list. There are no refunds. Our annual Commitment Form clearly states that they are not signing up for a month-to-month agreement, but for a full year, and that payments are merely for their convenience. If they decide not to honor their agreement we feel no obligation to give them a refund. Now occasionaly we get someone who can't continue through no fault of their own (job transfer, move out of the area, death in the family, etc.). We work with them to "sell" their harvest share to the next person on the waiting list to recover a fair share of what they paid. We get very few drop-outs, but we do get some. We do not lose money on them. We've never had a bounced check. If we did they would get one chancwe to make it good. We spend little time worrying about who has paid. We spend our time growing and delivering food. It's what we agreed to do, so we try to concentrate on it. I don't agree that the farm is the most important unit in the equation! I think any good agricultural operation is a symbiotic relationship which includes the grower(s), the consumer(s), the land and "improvements", and the natural systems which underly and make possible all life and activity. None are more or less important than the others. I agree that "the farm" may be our biggest concern, as growers, but that's not because it is more important in any real sense, it is simply because it is our responsibility, the center of our interest, and we have strong emotional and economic ties to it. I can say that we have never let our Harvest Shareholders down. Not that we haven't delivered less than we (or they) wanted, simply that we did not let them down. We are very clear that we do our best to grow and abundance of healthy, flavorful food, but that nmatural systems are not controlled by humans. We warn our people that therer will be bad years, and we have had some very poor years. But if you educate your people to have realistic expectations, and build trust, they will understand., and as long as you do your best they will not feel let down. Dissappointed, yes, but not let down. In one particularly bad year we had a severe 9 day long freeze (we usually don't get hard freezes for more that 12 hours here) AND a wind storm trashed our two week old greenhouse,which protected our winter greens. We lost a lot of crops and we even had to drop deliveries to every other week during January and February. During this terrible year we had Harvest Shareholders who sent us money to help us cover our increased costs, even though we never mentioned the idea. THAT is what comes from mutual trust and respect. The only point I have been trying to make about CSA meing a non-splittable operation is that it is based on a simple agreement which must be grounded on trust: Harvest Shareholders provide what we need to run the farm (and we define what that is!), and we promise to do our best to supply good quantities and good varietiy af healthful, flavorful food. We trust them to provide what they promise (usually money, but often something else), they trust us to expend our time, skill and efforts to provie food. Not SOME of out time, skill and effort. I've said this before, but I guess not clearly, so I'll try again. It is precisely BECAUSE you risk losing the farm if you don't get enough income that it is imperitive not to run a split operation. Budget for the ENTIRE operation when setting harvest share costs. Make sure the Harvest Shareholders provide ALL you need to run the farm. Then you can concentrate on growing. In a split operation you have to make the income from both the CSA AND from the other market(s). If you don't you risk losing the farm. That's where the bind comes from. The other markets (not the CSA) depend on volume of production and price. In times of shortage you either short the market and lose money (and therefore threaten the security of the farm) or you short the Harvest Shareholders and break trust with them. An ethical delimma. Resolved by the simple principle: run a CSA operation or sell to other markets. Don't try to do both. As for excess production? Wonderful! You are in the enviable position of having wonderful, fresh food which you can give away! Put it up if you want. Give it out at get togethers. Have a celebration at the farm where you all get together and cook up a storm, then eat yourselves silly. DOnate to a food bank, the local Meals-On-Wheels program, a local old folks home or senior center. Give it to organizations who feed the poor. It is insane to complain about having too much food in a society where people starve to death every day! I don't believe I ever said growers should not have multiple markets. What I meant to say was not to subvert CSA by trying to break trust with your Harvest Shareholders. Either you concentrate on serving those who providse what you say you need to run the foram, or you serve some other market. I contend that you cannot do both. @@@@@@@@ Leigh Hauter wrote: "Having once ran the fresh food operation at the DC food bank, I do give produce to local soup kitchens. However, the question was more of 'what is too much?' People were upset at seeing all of those eggplants, eggplants that they weren't eating, but somehow felt obligated to take. I know educaton is supposed to be the answer, but that's easier said. Leigh" When we had on-farm pickup we had a box at the end of the tables labelled "extras". Each person was encouraged to take their full share from each of the boxes (tomatoes, cukes, leccute, etc.) and, if they didn;t want it (or diodn;'t want all of the week's amount) they were encouraged to put the extra in the extras box. Anything in the extras box was available for anyone who wanted it. It was usually pretty empty by the end of the day, though a lot of stuff passed through it. Now that we nmake upo the boxes and deliver them we have to pay more attention to amounts, and we ask for ffedback. We adjust harvesting and when we have extra we donate it. @@@@@@ Art Biggert writes: "Nothing in life is black or white. Defining CSA by narrow parameters is as misleading as defining sustainable agriculture narrowly. My greatest example of CSA is my farm. It is diverse, sustainable and flexible. The concept of CSA is diverse, sustainable and flexible... Perhaps in an enlightened society we could meet the criteria you have suggested. But the reality of here and now dictates that we take baby steps and survive to teach again tomorrow." But CSA HAS been defined. It was defined decades before it came to the United States. If we don't think that CSA, as defined, works here, then we should do something else. Maybe invent something else. But calling it CSA doesn't make it CSA, it just destroys the meaning of the term CSA. Corporate agriculture doesn't like organics - it's too hard to make enough profit. But it is a growing market and has a following, and money can be made selling "organic". So, they want to change the rules so it matches what they do. So what happens? Either they have to make up another term (which defeats their purpose), or the term organic no longer means what we have taken decades to make it mean. Do you think that's right? I don't mean to imply that split-market CSAs are trying to fool people. I don't think the mis-use comes from bad intent, I think it comes from a mixture of ignorance and the pressures of farming. But the principle is the same: Chess is a game. It has rules. If you don't care for the rules, make up a new game. Just don't call it Chess. @@@@@@@@@@@@ Beth wrote (in part): "I honestly do not see how the CSA community is adversly affected if they receive as much and usually more veggies than can can eat, enjoy farm atmoshpere in festivals or hayrides..." That's exactly the point. During good years, even average years, there is no conflict. It is in bad years when the conflict comes. At it may lead to losing the farm. It has always been the bad years that kill farms. (And thanks for the words of support, Beth) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Generally, I fear taht CSA will have no meaning in another year or two. The general willingness to let just about any operation where there is some relationship between the eater and the grower be called a CSA will insure that there will be no useful meaning left. Too, bad. I think the concept of a relationship between the grower and the consumer, where the consumer takes a direct responsibility for the farm and the grower takes a direct responsibility for the consumer's food is a wonderful concept. The core concept of sharing the risk and sharing the reward is the revolutionary heart of the relationship. I'll hate to see it buried under compromise and rationalization. Compromise and rationalization is what got us to conventional agriculture, mega-corporations and international agri-business. Sarah writes: "I was one of the primary organizers of the 1997 Northeast Regional CSA Conference, which drew about 400 people two years ago... "In deciding on the workshops topics and the general thrust of the conference, the six of us who were organizing it spent several *months* trying to come to some agreement over what CSA is, and what, therefore, would be appropriate (and non-exclusionary) to present..." I was one of the participants on various panels at that conference. I expressed then my concerns about the degradation of the term CSA (though NOT the inclusion of diverse interests). I firat learned the principles of CSA from Trauger Groh, who learned it in Europe (I believe). I sp"ent some time in conversation with Robyn Van En discussing just this subject. The principle of share the risk, share the bounty" was, we agreed, essential to the CSA model. While I agree that there are few other restrictions, and diverse answers to the pressures and challenges growers face every day are to be encouraged, if there is no recognition of the core principles, there is no point in using the term. A commonality as broad as was selected for the conference has little meaning. If I haven't bored you all to death with my end-of-the-bell-curve ramblings by now, I never will. "I shall write of this no more forever." Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon *I use the terms harvest share and Harvest Shareholder for what I believe are good reasons: if you talk to ther general public about buying "shares" the law says you are selling securities. Selling securities is a highly regulated activity (it should be, it is essentially a pyramid scheme!) A disgruntled individual could haul you in to court for dealing in securities without a license, or to demand ownership of "his/her farm". You would probably lose, but even if you won it would be expensive. Harvest share is a term that the government seems comfortable with, so I use it. The best way to solve a problem is don't get it in the first place. Farming is hard enough without inviting in the lawyers. (I capitolize "Harvest Shareholders" out of respect - they are as essential to what I do as is the land and the natural systems I try to understand.) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 07:23:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA10640 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA06699; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:22:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (fb00.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.18]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06611 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:21:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1b-118.ix.netcom.com [209.110.249.118]) by fb00.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA31317 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:21:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004b01bf48a2$7f6524a0$76f96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" Cc: References: <008601bf476d$58d318a0$79c3a4cf@accel.net> <3859AE92.732F@teleport.com> Subject: Re: split operations Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 07:22:13 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 961 Hi Will, I wasn't bored at all I read the entire post. But this is my favorite list anyway:). One tinsy wensy point. Your CSA is year round, ours and probably most on this list are not,ours is only 20ish weeks. I don't know of any job, career calling, etc. that one can make a full years living at in 20 weeks ok maybe professional sports and movie star. So many of us must have two jobs (or more) some choose agriculture which of course limits it to the appropriate time of year. Oh well Will, first your welcome :), and I see we are all probably not going to convert each other. The best to you and ps I enjoy just looking at the garden and I love to sit and enjoy my chickens (I don't have ducks). Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 09:59:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA12854 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA18500; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:58:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18345 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:57:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [38.28.132.102] (ip102.seattle17.wa.pub-ip.psi.net [38.28.132.102]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA24614 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 06:57:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912171457.GAA24614@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Subject: Searching for Organic Reference Book Date: Fri, 17 Dec 99 07:50:35 -0000 x-sender: koehoe@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Martin Koenig To: "CSA" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 962 I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years ahead. Thanks! Margaret Hoeffel Vashon, WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 10:04:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12933 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA18950; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:03:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18650 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:00:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.36] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFB7302011C; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:59:03 -0500 Message-ID: <004101bf489f$c4770e80$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Will... Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:02:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF4875.DAE864E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 963 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF4875.DAE864E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts. Please don't sign off on this = subject yet! I found the info on your particular CSA very informative, = & enlightening. When you promote covering ALL the costs on a farm with = funding solely from Harvest Shareholders/CSA members, it scares those of = us who think this means requesting too much money at the start of the = season. But seeing how your farm spreads out that cost, makes your = viewpoint clearer, & more reasonable for the members. I must admit, I = agree more with you after reading how you operate. And having a year = round operation, as Beth pointed out, makes this a bit more obtainable. = Thanks for all your input! Happy Holidays everyone! Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF4875.DAE864E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts.  Please don't sign off on = this=20 subject yet!  I found the info on your particular CSA very = informative,=20 & enlightening.  When you promote covering ALL the = costs on a=20 farm with funding solely from Harvest Shareholders/CSA members, it = scares those=20 of us who think this means requesting too much money at the start of the = season.  But seeing how your farm spreads out that cost, makes = your=20 viewpoint clearer, & more reasonable for the members.   I = must=20 admit,  I agree more with you after reading how you operate.  = And=20 having a year round operation, as Beth pointed out, makes this a = bit more=20 obtainable.  Thanks for all your input!  Happy Holidays=20 everyone!
     
    Morningstar Gardens
      ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01BF4875.DAE864E0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 10:35:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13394 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA22134; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:34:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22044 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:34:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.36] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A7A8CFDB0106; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:32:56 -0500 Message-ID: <000901bf48a4$7fe7d740$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Lumbered raised beds Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:36:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF487A.9649EB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 964 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF487A.9649EB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, ie = lumber? I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice also: "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next year. I've = done a bit of research, but wanted to ask your opinions. I do intensive = gardening with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd really like to enclose them with = supported sides, ie lumber, but have read this isn't advisable due to = cost & labor. Of course, I wouldn't use treated lumber-I'm non-certified = organic. I think I read in an earlier post, maybe not even on this = forum, that someone used simple pine, and that it had lasted 5-6 years. = I can't use redwood, or cypress-too expensive. The lumbered beds appear = to be easier to cover with plastic/shadecloth/Reemay, and easier to keep = weeded.=20 For 5 years, I've gardened using the no-till method, so if a tiller = isn't being used-this would not destroy the lumbered sides. I have a = friend close by who is a flower market gardener. Her beds are lumbered & = extremely easier to maintain than mine. I can get lumber fairly = inexpensive by purchasing old, old tobacco barns that are being = dismantled locally. These barns haven't been used for 35 years. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF487A.9649EB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, = ie=20 lumber?  I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice = also:
    "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next year. = I've done=20 a bit of research, but wanted to ask your opinions. I do intensive = gardening=20 with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd really like to enclose them with supported = sides, ie=20 lumber, but have read this isn't advisable due to cost & labor. Of = course,=20 I wouldn't use treated lumber-I'm non-certified organic. I think I = read in an=20 earlier post, maybe not even on this forum, that someone used simple = pine, and=20 that it had lasted 5-6 years. I can't use redwood, or cypress-too = expensive.=20 The lumbered beds appear to be easier to cover with = plastic/shadecloth/Reemay,=20 and easier to keep weeded.
    For 5 years, I've gardened using the = no-till=20 method, so if a tiller isn't being used-this would not destroy the = lumbered=20 sides. I have a friend close by who is a flower market gardener. Her = beds are=20 lumbered & extremely easier to maintain than mine. I can get = lumber fairly=20 inexpensive by purchasing old, old tobacco barns that are being = dismantled=20 locally. These barns haven't been used for 35 years.
     
    Morningstar Gardens
    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF487A.9649EB60-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 10:45:05 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13543 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA23220; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:44:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23143 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:43:53 -0600 (CST) From: HowdiHeidi@aol.com Received: from HowdiHeidi@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.6c3faa07 (3319) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:43:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.6c3faa07.258bb413@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:43:15 EST Subject: bibles To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id JAA23144 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 965 Margaret H. wrote: I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years ahead. Thanks! Margaret, Two of the books that I refer to often for crop specific information are: 1. Rodale's Garden Problem Solver (includes organic pest and disease controls for vegetables, fruits, and herbs.) I picked up a copy at Border's on the sale rack for $5.00. 2. The Vegetable Garden by MM. Vilmorin-Andrieux This book was first published in English in 1885, and describes cultivation techniques for hundreds of plant varieties some no longer exist, but many are timeless favorites. (The book also has beautiful horticultural engravings.) Published by Ten-Speed Press Heidi R. Lewis Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition Fredericksburg, VA http://members.aol.com/csofc1999/index.htm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 10:57:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13749 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA24641; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:56:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from mercury.tempe.gov (mail.tempe.gov [164.50.8.238]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24536 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:56:06 -0600 (CST) Received: by mercury.tempe.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:56:00 -0700 Message-ID: From: "Fellows, Brian" To: "'CSA-L@prairienet.org'" Subject: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 08:59:05 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 966 Not being a real farmer - just an urban 'agro-tinkerer' - I'm curious about a crop v. demand issue: let's say you've planted some winter crops (could be summer crops, for that matter), and your customer demand begins to exceed the supply. How do you satisfy your customers/subscribers/members so you don't lose them? What else can you offer them? Also, have any of you heard of the Community and School Youth Gardening Conference? We're organizing the third annual conference, and are expecting 400-500 participants. There will be lectures, workshops, and a 'Seeds of Change' fundraising banquet on opening night. The cool thing about the banquet is that several well-known local chefs who've been involved in the effort for all three years will prepare food using produce grown by participating schools. The event will be held in late February 2000 in sunny Tempe, Arizona, where we have an awesome year-round growing season and great crop diversity. February is a great time to visit Tempe/Phoenix - the average daily high temps are in the mid- to upper 70s. Anyway, I'm not sure how many spaces are still available, but if you're interested, I'd be happy to provide you with the phone number of the contact person. Thanks. And I'm enjoying reading these postings. Brian Fellows From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 11:01:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13853 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA25075; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:59:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomina.net.lu.se (nomina.net.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA24930 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:59:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (luetnfs.etn.lu.se [130.235.150.159]) by nomina.net.lu.se (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA08756; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:59:05 +0100 (MET) Received: from LUETNFS/SpoolDir by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.21); 17 Dec 99 17:18:07 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUETNFS (Mercury 1.30); 17 Dec 99 17:17:40 +0100 Received: from humecol.lu.se by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 17 Dec 99 17:17:37 +0100 Message-ID: <385A5B8D.8F26DAA6@humecol.lu.se> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:49:33 +0100 From: Folke =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth Pike CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Lumbered raised beds References: <000901bf48a4$7fe7d740$02000003@default> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5C18F919C1E49A7097CCBFA6" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 967 --------------5C18F919C1E49A7097CCBFA6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Elizabeth Pike wrote: > Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, ie > lumber? I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice also: > > "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next > year. I've done a bit of research, but wanted to ask your > opinions. I do intensive gardening with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd > really like to enclose them with supported sides, ie lumber, > but have read this isn't advisable due to cost & labor. > > I am recently constructing a raised bed made of Leca blocks. Principally, it is the same construction as my compost pile that you can find at http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke_g/Compost/Compile.htm Since the blocks doesn't need to be plastered together, the construction is therefore cheap in the long run. Your FG -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Gnther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievgen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm --- The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein (?) --------------5C18F919C1E49A7097CCBFA6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Pike wrote:
    Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, ie lumber?  I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice also:
    "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next year. I've done a bit of research, but wanted to ask your opinions. I do intensive gardening with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd really like to enclose them with supported sides, ie lumber, but have read this isn't advisable due to cost & labor.
     
    I am recently constructing a raised bed made of Leca blocks.
    Principally, it is the same construction as my compost pile that you can find at
    http://www.etn.lu.se/~folke_g/Compost/Compile.htm

    Since the blocks doesn't need to be plastered together, the construction is therefore cheap in the long run.

    Your
    FG
    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Folke Günther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98.
    Kollegievägen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden
    URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm
    ---
    The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the
    rational mind is a faithful servant. We have
    created a society that honours the servant and has
    forgotten the gift.
    Albert Einstein (?)
      --------------5C18F919C1E49A7097CCBFA6-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 12:00:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15175 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA00675; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:59:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00567 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:58:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15133; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16844; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:58:43 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:58:43 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Elizabeth Pike cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Lumbered raised beds In-Reply-To: <000901bf48a4$7fe7d740$02000003@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 968 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Elizabeth Pike wrote: > Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, ie > lumber? I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice also: > "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next year. I've > done a bit of research, but wanted to ask your opinions. I do > intensive gardening with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd really like to enclose > them with supported sides, ie lumber, but have read this isn't > advisable due to cost & labor. Of course, I wouldn't use treated > lumber-I'm non-certified organic. I think I read in an earlier post, How do you go about marketing your produce as non-certified organic? What is the wording of your label, ads, etc.? I am n-c organic also and have no plans to submit to this form of political/corporate extortion called "organic certification". > maybe not even on this forum, that someone used simple pine, and that > it had lasted 5-6 years. I can't use redwood, or cypress-too Southern Yellow Pine (labelled SPF) won't last very long and though strong and hard, rots quickly. Your best bet dollar for dollar is to use what is marketed locally as SPF (spruce-pine-fir, i.e. the lumber may be from any of the above trees) and comes from the US Northwest. It is light and medium hard and contains oils that make it fairly rot-resistant if not put underground - my guess is that a 2X10 may last 5 years when containing organic garden soil. It is relatively cheap so can be replaced frequently without breaking the bank. It is also easy to work with - I would use various galvanized metal accessories used in house framing to hold the corners and spans together; these can be nailed or bolted. Prices fluctuate on this lumber; now, a 2"X6"X96" is about $4.25. Prices and quality vary a lot - I would hand pick all boards for the most weight and tight grain (means more sap/oil in the wood). > expensive. The lumbered beds appear to be easier to cover with > plastic/shadecloth/Reemay, and easier to keep weeded. > For 5 years, I've gardened using the no-till method, so if a tiller > isn't being used-this would not destroy the lumbered sides. I have a > friend close by who is a flower market gardener. Her beds are lumbered > & extremely easier to maintain than mine. I can get lumber fairly > inexpensive by purchasing old, old tobacco barns that are being > dismantled locally. These barns haven't been used for 35 years. > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 12:06:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15314 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01297; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:05:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.67]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01204 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:05:25 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.e8d4f026 (4423) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:04:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.e8d4f026.258bc72b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:04:43 EST Subject: Re: Lumbered raised beds To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 969 Happy holidays Liz, I plant on raised beds as well. But have not use lumber for the same reasons you mentioned. I have seen other growers use lumber with varying results. One method that worked the best was lining the soil sides of the lumber with black plastic. It decreases the moisture and bacterial contact with the wood so it rots slower. Another great system I saw was using 4inch crushed basalt rock stacked against 1\4 inch rod concrete reenforcement. The squares of the reenforcement mesh are 3 X 3 inches. It comes in 4ft X 8ft sections. Cut in half and buried six inches into the ground. The dirt in the beds pushed the rock against the mesh . These beds are perminent. The top of the walls extended 2 - 3 inches above the mesh to avoid poking injuries. But they take a bit longer to build than lumber. Good luck, Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 12:10:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15381 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA01740; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:09:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01660 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:09:13 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.44485d86 (4008); Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:08:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.44485d86.258bc812@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:08:34 EST Subject: Re: bibles To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 970 In a message dated 12/17/99 7:44:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, HowdiHeidi@aol.com writes: << The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?) >> Bargyla used to be on this list. I haven't heard from her in a while though. Last winter she said her book was out of print or something like that but that she had copies for sale through herself. Are you out there Bargyla? Her email address was something like BRateaver@aol.com Suzy Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 12:15:14 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15467 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02401; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:14:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02318 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:13:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15410; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20041; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:13:51 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:13:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: HowdiHeidi@aol.com cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: bibles In-Reply-To: <0.6c3faa07.258bb413@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by firefly.prairienet.org id LAA02319 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 971 On Fri, 17 Dec 1999 HowdiHeidi@aol.com wrote: > Margaret H. wrote: > I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla > Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they > use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm > also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's > particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to > such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to > tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? > I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume > to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years > ahead. Thanks! You can reach Bargyla easily at: Bargyla Rateaver brateaver@earthlink.net she also frequents the sanet-mg mailing list I imagine you can mail order a copy of her revised Primer directly from her. LL > > Margaret, > Two of the books that I refer to often for crop specific information are: > > 1. Rodale's Garden Problem Solver (includes organic pest and disease controls > for vegetables, fruits, and herbs.) I picked up a copy at Border's on the > sale rack for $5.00. > > 2. The Vegetable Garden by MM. Vilmorin-Andrieux > This book was first published in English in 1885, and describes cultivation > techniques for hundreds of plant varieties some no longer exist, but many > are timeless favorites. (The book also has beautiful horticultural > engravings.) > Published by Ten-Speed Press > > Heidi R. Lewis > Community Supported Organic Farm Coalition > Fredericksburg, VA > http://members.aol.com/csofc1999/index.htm > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 12:46:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16214 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 12:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA05180; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:45:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05056 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 11:45:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-147.premier1.net [207.149.54.147]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id JAA14908 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:38:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <005901bf48b7$50d64d20$913695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: References: Subject: Re: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:51:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 972 ----- Original Message ----- From: Fellows, Brian To: Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 7:59 AM > Not being a real farmer - just an urban 'agro-tinkerer' - I'm curious about > a crop v. demand issue: let's say you've planted some winter crops (could be > summer crops, for that matter), and your customer demand begins to exceed > the supply. How do you satisfy your customers/subscribers/members so you > don't lose them? What else can you offer them? > I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'll answer to what I think it is. If you haven't planted enough, there is nothing you can do about it until the next planting season comes around for your area. We always plant more than we expect to sell, or to give to our members, but still sometimes during the middle of the season we will sell out of something fairly quickly. An example: summer squash is one of our specialties, for some reason it tastes especially sweet grown on our soil. We have gained quite a reputation with all of our customers (members and market goers alike) and each year have planted more accordingly. We are still left with very little at the end of each market, and as I said before, sometimes nothing at all. This year we were taking in to our Saturday market an average of 350 lbs. of squash each Saturday with prices ranging from 1.25 a lb. to 2.50 a lb. depending on size. Of course we made sure the smaller size was the largest poundage as it was also the most popular and the sweetest tasting. But if we ran out, there really isn't anything we could do about it but tell the customer to come earlier the next week. Our members always got as much as they wanted. We could have raised the price, but I felt that what we were getting per square foot was more than adequate, (that averaged about 2.00-3.00 a foot depending upon the time of year) to cover our costs and earn some. I felt that raising the price even higher would have eliminated some very loyal customers who have a budget and already felt what we were charging was a lot, but it had become their weekly treat. We also sell eggs at the market (our members really don't want eggs so most of our eggs do go to the market). People are always disappointed when we sell out of eggs. I bring in about 70-85 dozen a week, selling at 3.75 a dozen. We never take any home from our main market. To increase our supply means a commitment of 5 months ahead of time with a live being, that needs to be fed, adequately housed, nurtured and given enough space to live the way that animal was designed to live. I can't manage anymore than I have in the set up I've designed so I won't increase that crop. People understand and would rather not get thier eggs (yes they are disappointed) knowing that the eggs they are buying are coming from hens that are living a great lifestyle. We do meat birds in the same fashion and I can't keep up with demand, but as with the hens, I won't go over my limit of what I feel I can adequately deal with and still make sure those birds are living a good life. Besides there is only so much killing I can handle ( I do all the slaughtering myself, most of the times no help, and when I do have help it slows things down). I do an average of about 400-500 birds a season. People want me to do more, are always asking when the next time for ordering is coming around, but they are patient and wait for a good product. I hope that answered your question. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 14:07:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18337 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA12603; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:06:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12476 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:05:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.8.149.202] [209.8.149.211] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.05) id AB47E1700FC; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:13:11 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:05:11 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: raised beds Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 973 I just got back from vacationing in Cuba and all vegetables there seem to be grown in raised beds made out of local construction block. I bet that isn't cost effective here. (I highly recommend the Cuban beaches). Since we have a large wood lot and farm in the east where locust trees grow I use it because it takes about 25 years to rot ( untreated locust fence posts last longer than commercial treated posts). The only draw back to this is that locust has the same btu as coal and it makes a really warm fire for those cold nights and I'd much rather have it in my stove than out in the vegetable beds. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 16:13:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20935 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA23074; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:12:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22287 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:04:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2a-253.ix.netcom.com [209.110.252.253]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06533; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:04:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000f01bf48eb$a0e5ea80$fdfc6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: <0.6c3faa07.258bb413@aol.com> Subject: Re: bibles Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:05:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 974 I believe I saw the book by Bargyla Rateaver listed on amazon.com. She is a contributor on the sanet list, so out of curiosity I looked it up. It could be out of print. Amazon and most internet book stores offer out of print books. You order it, usually without a price. They look for it and e-mail you its price you do not have to buy it. Try your library, a good place to read first and buy later if you really liked it. Beth > Margaret H. wrote: > I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla > Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they > use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm > also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's > particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to > such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to > tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? > I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume > to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years > ahead. Thanks! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 16:16:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20965 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA23467; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:15:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23349 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:15:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2a-253.ix.netcom.com [209.110.252.253]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA31499; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:15:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001501bf48ed$19628800$fdfc6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Fellows, Brian" , References: Subject: Re: crop vs. demand Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:16:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 975 Hi Brian, In our CSA and most I am aware of there is a loose guideline of expected quanity of veggie. I actually print a chart that goes with my flyer, frankly I modeled it after another CSA about an hour away from ours. Example in a season's harvest on my chart I put a member could expect 20lb of tomatoes, 19lbs of summer squash, and 3 dozen ears of corn. In harvest '99 they must have got in excess of 60lbs of tomatoes, some who requested some to proceess I gave a basket 1/2 bushel of scratch and dents, the summer squash poundage was off the chart. The corn for those members who did not miss a pickup day just about squeaked by at 3 dozen any one who missed those key pick-ups got from 1-2 dozen. So I guess the answer to your question is we loosely promise a certain amount if we exceed it bonus! If we meet it, good. If we are a bit under that is the sharing the risk of buying a garden's harvest (as opposed to grocery store or farm stand) and a bit less in one thing is almost always made up in extra sometimes lots extra of something else. Beth > Not being a real farmer - just an urban 'agro-tinkerer' - I'm curious about > a crop v. demand issue: let's say you've planted some winter crops (could be > summer crops, for that matter), and your customer demand begins to exceed > the supply. How do you satisfy your customers/subscribers/members so you > don't lose them? What else can you offer them? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 16:40:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21429 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25883; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:39:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA25813 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:38:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.161] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AD22C4D01F8; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:37:38 -0500 Message-ID: <006301bf48d7$730c07c0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: , "Michaele Blakely" Subject: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:41:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0060_01BF48AD.892971C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 976 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BF48AD.892971C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "A few questions before I give you my opinion. How large of an area are = you speaking of, acres, footage? What part of the country do you grow = in? And by market garden I presume you mean veggies, not flowers. Do = you have berries also? Michaele Blakely" I live on the coast of North Carolina. 8 beds--4'x100' with 4' paths in = between.I grow a few flowers, mostly sunflowers, but these are grown in = a field, so they would not be included. No berries-not yet anyway. Liz Pike =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BF48AD.892971C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    "A few questions before I give you my=20 opinion.  How large of an area are you speaking of, acres, = footage? =20 What part of the country do you grow in?  And by market garden I = presume=20 you mean veggies, not flowers.  Do you have berries = also?
    Michaele Blakely"
     
    I live on the coast of North Carolina.  8=20 beds--4'x100' with 4' paths in between.I grow a few flowers, mostly = sunflowers, but these are grown in a field, so they would not be = included. =20 No berries-not yet anyway.
     
     
      ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01BF48AD.892971C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 16:42:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21489 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26164; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:41:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26077 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:41:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.161] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id ADAF5A201A2; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:39:59 -0500 Message-ID: <007201bf48d7$c6caa100$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Kirsten Saylor" , References: <19991217175651.1365.qmail@web801.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Trading excess produce Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:43:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 977 From: Kirsten Saylor > Are you a CSA? (by whatever definition...) The reason why I'm asking is that I checked > the CSA directory, and I'm not seeing you in there. If you are and are interested in the > national list, please let me know -- I'll get you there. Not a CSA yet-soon to be! Liz Pike pike@always-online.com PS On the coast of North Carolina From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 17:20:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21983 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29934; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:19:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29376 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:13:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-163.premier1.net [207.149.54.163]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id OAA21545; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:07:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001301bf48dc$d33a94e0$a33695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Elizabeth Pike" Cc: References: <006301bf48d7$730c07c0$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:19:44 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF4899.C3C7A360" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 978 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF4899.C3C7A360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Elizabeth Pike=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org ; Michaele Blakely=20 Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 1:41 PM =20 The reason I asked is because the growing season and climate would = affect your plant growth depending on what you used to hold the soil in = your beds. Also a small growing area is a more managble size for raised = beds rather than a couple of acres. When I had a garden a little larger = than what you have I had raised beds that had been already made for me = out of lumber. I thought I was pretty lucky to fall into the job = already halfway done. I tore them out eventually because the soil = outside of the beds warmed up much faster than the soil in the beds. I = still had raised beds, but I sloped the sides. The result was that I = had beds ready to plant much earlier, even than conventional beds = (because of the sloped sides). and also I got an extra square foot or = two planting on the sloped sides. I'm a very intensive farmer and if I = see an empty space I fill it with a plant. The down side of this was = that it required (the slopes) a little more maintenace, and irrigating = (I did very little) had to be done very carefully. I finally went to t = tape. If I were still farming on a small plot I would go that route for = my area. We get little sun in the spring and I need every heat unit I = can get. I also maximized the most out of cloches, remay,hoop houses, = whatever I could to help things along. So I would say if you live in an = area that gets the sun(, does coastal North Carolina get sun, or is it = like here cloudy and rainy until July? ) go for the raised beds with = lumber, they are easier to maintain. But if you need early warmth and = are still wanting to do raised beds, maybe make them with heat retaining = bricks, blocks, or even rocks. To get cantalope to ripen one year when = it was a particularly poor season for our climate I lined the whole area = with rocks and that did the trick. Nowadays, the idea of doing raised beds on three acres seems = exhausting and besides it floods every year so I rely on IRT mulch and = row covers and hoop houses. Hope all of our replies help you make your = decision. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA "A few questions before I give you my opinion. How large of an area = are you speaking of, acres, footage? What part of the country do you = grow in? And by market garden I presume you mean veggies, not flowers. = Do you have berries also? Michaele Blakely" I live on the coast of North Carolina. 8 beds--4'x100' with 4' paths = in between.I grow a few flowers, mostly sunflowers, but these are grown = in a field, so they would not be included. No berries-not yet anyway. Liz Pike =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF4899.C3C7A360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Elizabeth=20 Pike
    To: CSA-L@prairienet.org ; Michaele = Blakely=20
    Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 = 1:41=20 PM
     
    The reason I asked is because the = growing season=20 and climate would affect your plant growth depending on what you used = to hold=20 the soil in your beds.  Also a small growing area is a more = managble size=20 for raised beds rather than a couple of acres.  When I had a = garden a=20 little larger than what you have I had raised beds that had been = already=20 made for me out of lumber.  I thought I was pretty = lucky to=20 fall into the job already halfway done.  I tore them out = eventually=20 because the soil outside of the beds warmed up much faster than the = soil in=20 the beds.  I still had raised beds, but I sloped the sides.  = The=20 result was that I had beds ready to plant much earlier, even than = conventional beds (because of the sloped sides). and also I got an = extra=20 square foot or two planting on the sloped sides.  I'm a very = intensive=20 farmer and if I see an empty space I fill it with a plant.  The = down side=20 of this was that it required (the slopes) a little more maintenace, = and=20 irrigating (I did very little) had to be done very carefully.  I = finally=20 went to t tape.  If I were still farming on a small plot I would = go that=20 route for my area.  We get little sun in the spring and I = need every=20 heat unit I can get.  I also maximized the most out of cloches,=20 remay,hoop houses, whatever I could to help things along.  So I = would say=20 if you live in an area that gets the sun(, does coastal North Carolina = get=20 sun, or is it like here cloudy and rainy until July? ) go for the = raised beds=20 with lumber, they are easier to maintain.  But if you need early = warmth=20 and are still wanting to do raised beds, maybe make them with heat=20 retaining  bricks, blocks, or even rocks.  To get cantalope = to ripen=20 one year when it was a particularly poor season for our climate I = lined the=20 whole area with rocks and that did the trick.
    Nowadays, the idea of doing raised = beds on three=20 acres seems exhausting and besides it floods every year so I rely on = IRT mulch=20 and row covers and hoop houses.  Hope all of our replies help you = make=20 your decision.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA
    "A few questions before I give you my = opinion.  How large of an area are you speaking of, acres, = footage? =20 What part of the country do you grow in?  And by market garden I = presume=20 you mean veggies, not flowers.  Do you have berries = also?
    Michaele Blakely"
     
    I live on the coast of North = Carolina.  8=20 beds--4'x100' with 4' paths in between.I grow a few flowers, = mostly=20 sunflowers, but these are grown in a field, so they would not be=20 included.  No berries-not yet anyway.
     
     
      ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BF4899.C3C7A360-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 17:49:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22282 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02210; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:48:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01713 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:43:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.24 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:42:06 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: "Martin Koenig" , "CSA" Subject: Re: Searching for Organic Reference Book - one reply Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:15:54 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <070d906422211c9CPIMSSMTPU01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 979 >I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla >Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they >use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm >also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's >particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to >such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to >tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? >I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume >to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years >ahead. Thanks! >Margaret Hoeffel >Vashon, WA brateaver@earthlink.net Bargyla was over 80 and still active lastyear/thisyear when I was on a different list - and I'm sorry I don't know which one it was - but that was the address I had questions answered from. If it doesnt' work - well, I tried, Margaret ..... you might ask, at the same time you try, if the CD that another person on that other list was asking about was ever made - and let me/this list know ! Toni Seattle From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 17:55:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22337 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02698; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:54:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu02.email.msn.com [207.46.181.18]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01964 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 16:45:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.24 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 14:44:50 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: "CSA list" , "Leigh Hauter" Subject: Re: raised beds Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 15:18:37 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0a92550442211c9CPIMSSMTPU02@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 980 >I just got back from vacationing in Cuba and all vegetables there seem to >be grown in raised beds made out of local construction block. I bet that >isn't cost effective here. > >(I highly recommend the Cuban beaches). > >Since we have a large wood lot and farm in the east where locust trees grow >I use it because it takes about 25 years to rot ( untreated locust fence >posts last longer than commercial treated posts). The only draw back to >this is that locust has the same btu as coal and it makes a really warm >fire for those cold nights and I'd much rather have it in my stove than out >in the vegetable beds. >Leigh Hauter Wasn't that what the grasshopper said to the ant ? ..... ;- ) ..... Toni Seattle, WA tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 17 20:21:24 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23651 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA13083; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:20:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.58.198]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12629 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 19:13:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from 708661617 (DYTNA010-0453.splitrock.net [209.255.147.199]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA8323758; Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:13:53 -0500 Message-ID: <00d801bf48f5$1f71c3c0$1064fcd1@708661617> Reply-To: "Spring Run Farm" From: "Spring Run Farm" To: "Hook Family" , "Jim Austin" , References: <005901bf40d5$311a92a0$2cef3ad0@hj7fk> <005301bf43fb$98bf7640$63f96ed1@guldann> <005c01bf4589$d0391060$ccf03ad0@hj7fk> <008501bf45b0$bb748700$acf86ed1@guldann> Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:59:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 981 Beth, you keep me feeling on track -- and not alone when I'm not being perfect. Buying locally is always my plan, but it is hard when you really have to travel (how's that for irony?) to do it? The one truly locally owned grocery store which also is very committed to organics is 15 miles away, the one dairy committed to avoiding BgH is 37 miles. And I too am frustrated by the difficulty of putting up all the food your family will need, while trying to GROW the food for 15-20 other families. There just aren't enough hours in a summer day! I do have one other thought about "the limiting factor." CSA is a very interactive operation; in truth, farmers need to LIKE having people around. I think that is, in some respects, the opposite of why some folks choose traditional agriculture. If you liked variety and being around people and making plans for lots of people and arranging logistics for all of them, would you spend your days in an enclosed John Deere, planting and tending a single crop on 900 to 1000 acres? They're resistance to organic agriculture and the financial risk of change aside, I think my neighbors would bridge to make an enormous culture gap to consider CSA. Noreen Spring Run Farm New Lebanon, Ohio ----- Original Message ----- From: Hook Family To: Jim Austin ; Sent: Monday, December 13, 1999 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Why isn't CSA bigger? What's the limiting factor? > > >Hi Jim and list, Thank-you for introducing yourself. As a farmer I think > your post was inspirational. I honestly fluctuate from optomistic to feeling > like I am paddling upstream. But how many times have we heard variations on > think globally (or nationally) act locally. There is huge wisdom in that. > Where should I start, well I love Art Biggert's phrase "whenever I point a > finger at someone I realize there are three pointing back at me" Where does > one start? Well, ok, everyone get ready to laugh: I was just thinking > yesterday, I am going to make a new year's resolution (never really made one > before). Its is to increase the quantity of local food that I (family) > ingest. Not mind boggling, should be like falling of a local log. I know > full well it is going to be as difficult as loosing weight, getting > organized (I never even attempted to resolve that one), and quitting > smoking. > I am not even your average consumer, I am naturally cheap, I don't throw my > money around. So comparatively I am less of a consumer just to consume type, > but I ain't no consumer angel either. There is in my house 4 TV's, darn 5. > I bought 4, one is a hammy down. One is a tiny 5 in screen BW but its still > a TV. 3 VCRs one is in one of the TV and at the moment doesn't work (do I > get brownie point credits for that? I didn't think so). I am not typing on > an telegraph set. > My husband (and even the kids) would not keep any clothing manufacture in > the black. We wear out etc. I had to buy my husband some new work clothes > (he's a teacher) I was getting embarrassed at his "look". I have had the > good fortune to be the same size a my friends teenage girls and gotten great > hammy downs, those girls don't like wearing anything that isn't perfect. > We have no outstanding debt, never have run up a large holiday bill. > But I did not preserved nearly enough of my harvest to last me the winter, > it's hard to be in the field and in the kitchen. We have one bull in the > freezer but how much beef can one eat. > The two nearest grocery stores each the same brand and owned by a Dutch > company I believe are 3 miles away. A local dairy I like probably 15 miles > away. Heath foods stores one I like about 10 miles. > In my ag business class however I met a fellow farmer (I knew of her it was > good to meet her), she raises, pigs, turkeys and maybe chickens. I talked > to her about buying some pork, note I haven't yet. > So Jim don't get discouraged, keep dreaming and join a CSA if you haven't > already. And I will also say I neighbor, I am from Massachusetts. My > sister lives in Maine, Portland. > Have you read the books, Farms of the Furture Revisited, by Trogh > (spelling?) and McFadden, and Sharing the Harvest by Henderson and Van Ey. > I think you would like them. Both are about CSAs. > Beth > > > Hi folks, Jim again. This was a great thread; thought I'd see if I could > get > > it going again. > > > > > > Here's why I'm interested: I'm a physicist and a teacher and I'm on > > sabattical for a year, so I've got some time on my hands. My home is in > > Maine but I'm spending the year in Princeton, NJ, home of high-tech > > companies, late-model cars, overpriced real estate, and horrendous > traffic. > > I've been thinking about how life would be if we weren't all (not all I > > suppose, but most, around here anyway, and in most of the nation's > high-tech > > corridors) living on television, shopping malls, grocery megastores > staffed > > with surly teenagers (there's a Wegman's just down the street that's > bigger > > than some shopping malls) and frequent purchases of stuff we don't need > (how > > many VCR's does a person need?). It's clear to me that this culture isn't > > working; at least it isn't working for anything except generating new > > > organic produce is one of the easiest ways to sell a better lifestyle, > since > > the quality is so apparent. Because it tastes good, and people like good > > food. And CSA makes a lot of sense as a way of aquiring it (the produce); > it > > also offers, as many of you often point out, a glimpse of a principled, > > respectful way of living that all of us could benefit from. And I like the > > roughness of it, of getting too much, unprocessed, staying up late after > the > > kids go to bed putting it up. And how many corporate managers and hotshot > > computer programmers don't think about starting their own farm sometimes > > when their eyes glaze over at the end of a long day in front of a computer > > in a gray-walled cell? You guys are boddhisattvas, gurus of good living. > You > > and your products are an easy sell. > > > > I don't know if this will ever happen. I don't know if the timing's right, > > or what form this project will ultimately take. I can tell you that I have > snipped > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 18 03:41:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id DAA26617 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 03:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA09355; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:31:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomina.net.lu.se (nomina.net.lu.se [130.235.132.90]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA08834 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 02:25:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (luetnfs.etn.lu.se [130.235.150.159]) by nomina.net.lu.se (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA21317 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:25:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from LUETNFS/SpoolDir by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.21); 18 Dec 99 09:44:07 +0100 Received: from SpoolDir by LUETNFS (Mercury 1.30); 18 Dec 99 09:44:00 +0100 Received: from humecol.lu.se by LUETNFS.etn.lu.se (Mercury 1.30) with ESMTP; 18 Dec 99 09:43:08 +0100 Message-ID: <385B4258.AB23A987@humecol.lu.se> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:14:16 +0100 From: Folke =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FCnther?= X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Community supported, Agriculture" Subject: [Fwd: Re: Lumbered raised beds] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------581EE1965E47EC30B0ECCF67" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 982 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------581EE1965E47EC30B0ECCF67 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2A64BF22DBB26D7F71C61650" --------------2A64BF22DBB26D7F71C61650 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Lumbered raised beds Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:07:24 +0100 From: Folke Gnther To: Michaele Blakely References: <000901bf48a4$7fe7d740$02000003@default> <385A5B8D.8F26DAA6@humecol.lu.se> <001501bf48d3$d1d72360$a33695cf@pmjb> To sort things out: Michaele Blakely wrote: > Hi there! # I just checked out your web-site and have some > questions about your compost. I assume your blocks are made > with styrofoam, what else? > > - The blocks in the middle layers are of the 'sandwich'-type > with a layer of styrofoam in them, The bottom and top layer > blocks are if the same size (h19 x d29 x l59 cm), but > without styrofoam. This is because the styrofoam is too > fragile to be exposed, > > # Does your compost get to a certain heat before the worms > come in or do you let it slowly decompose over a period of > time, not worrying about the temperature? > > - Actually, I started the compost with a culture of the > compost worm (Eisenia foetida). These are not the common > earthworm, but of a type that thrive in dungheaps > > # What do you use your compost for? > > - I use it in my garden. I live in the periphery of Lund in > southern Sweden, and the soil is very clayish. Therfore, I > deep-dig a piece a time and mix in about 50% compost, that > not need to be very heavy decomposed at the time. It grows > extremely well in these beds! (Look at the photos attached! > The pictures are taken in the beginning of june. > Vitlok=vitlk=garlic) > > # I know that seems like a very broad question, I guess I > mean, do you broadcast it on top of the soil, or do you mix > it in the top layer. Do you make a tea out of it? > > - See above > > # Also, you mentioned rats in your web site, do you have > rats wanting to burrow or just to nibble if they could get > into your compost? > > - Rats or mice isn't any problem, but people afraid of them > is. Therefore, the blocks are placed so close together that > it is impossible for even small mice to pass through them. > The only way for a mouse to get into the compost is from the > top, why I place heavy plant pots or such things on the top, > to let the top plate stick to the stones. > In the bottom of the compost, I hav places thinner > Leca-blocks, for the same reason. Still, air and worms can > pass through the construction. > > > # How long from start to finish does it take for your > compost to mature? > > - I successively fill one of the compartments during 4-5 > months with both kitchen and garden waste . Thereafter, I > rotate the top and starts to fill up the other compartment. > When this compartment is full, I take out the compost and > start over again. > > # After all is said and done, how do you get your compost > out? Do you take a side down somehow or do you shovel it > out? > > - I just take avay some of the stones and shovel the compost > into a wheelbarrow and dig it into the soil as mentined > above. Often, the chamber is only 3/4 full at the time, > since the compost has lost volume during maturation. > > > Your FG -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Folke Gnther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98. Kollegievgen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm --- The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honours the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein (?) --------------2A64BF22DBB26D7F71C61650 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject:  Re: Lumbered raised beds
    Date:  Sat, 18 Dec 1999 09:07:24 +0100
    From:  Folke Günther <folke.gunther@humecol.lu.se>
    To:  Michaele Blakely <mjb@premier1.net>
    References:  <000901bf48a4$7fe7d740$02000003@default> <385A5B8D.8F26DAA6@humecol.lu.se> <001501bf48d3$d1d72360$a33695cf@pmjb>

     

    To sort things out:

    Michaele Blakely wrote:

     Hi there! # I just checked out your web-site and have some questions about your compost.  I assume your blocks are made with styrofoam, what else?

    - The blocks in the middle layers are of the 'sandwich'-type with a layer of styrofoam in them, The bottom and top layer blocks are if the same size (h19 x d29 x l59 cm), but without styrofoam. This is because the styrofoam is too fragile to be exposed,

    # Does your compost get to a certain heat before the worms come in or do you let it slowly decompose over a period of time, not worrying about the temperature?

    - Actually, I started the compost with a culture of the compost worm (Eisenia foetida). These are not the common earthworm, but of a type that thrive in dungheaps

    # What do you use your compost for?

    - I use it in my garden. I live in the periphery of  Lund in southern Sweden, and the soil is very clayish. Therfore, I deep-dig a piece a time and mix in about 50% compost, that not need to be very heavy decomposed at the time. It grows extremely well in these beds! (Look at the photos attached! The pictures are taken in the beginning of june. Vitlok=vitlök=garlic)

    # I know that seems like a very broad question, I guess I mean, do you broadcast it on top of the soil, or do you mix it in the top layer.  Do you make a tea out of it?

    - See above

    # Also, you mentioned rats in your web site, do you have rats wanting to burrow or just to nibble if they could get into your compost?

    - Rats or mice isn't any problem, but people afraid of them is. Therefore, the blocks are placed so close together that it is impossible for even small mice to pass through them. The only way for a mouse to get into the compost is from the top, why I place heavy plant pots or such things on the top, to let the top plate stick to the stones.
    In the bottom of the compost, I hav places thinner Leca-blocks, for the same reason. Still, air and worms can pass through the construction.
     

    # How long from start to finish does it take for your compost to mature?

    - I successively fill one of the compartments during 4-5 months with both kitchen and garden waste . Thereafter, I rotate the top and starts to fill up the other compartment. When this compartment is full, I take out the compost and start over again.

    # After all is said and done, how do you get your compost out?  Do you take a side down somehow or do you shovel it out?

    - I just take avay some of the stones and shovel the compost into a wheelbarrow and dig it into the soil as mentined above. Often, the chamber is only 3/4 full at the time, since the compost has lost volume during maturation.
     
     


    Your
    FG
     
     

    --
    -------------------------------------------------------------
    Folke Günther +46 (0)46/ 14 14 29 el. +46 (0)46/222 36 98.
    Kollegievägen 19, 224 73 Lund, Sweden
    URL: http://www.humecol.lu.se/~folke_g/folkegsv.htm
    ---
    The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the
    rational mind is a faithful servant. We have
    created a society that honours the servant and has
    forgotten the gift.
    Albert Einstein (?)
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l/2FG/pXa/Er/k5Ob/ru3/oYrjq8ksXOla3LCUk/NWsZuc4ppeX9bmp8Smu9Kv7T4VfDP4a+ BUfTZ3Fp4u0LUnhlkY9VcSBfMXuCw3dM46Vy99F42v8A7TaePYtNGq6OryeH4HDr8zo6yKH5 wGLd933myeBWvaf8j3D/ANhCT+Qqf4pf8lK/7Zn+ZpNRnCNFrTlcvmrP8epfNKNfyOS8O/tG LYaFbW3iX4e6ql6qMJ0trd5VBDMMbkOO3TqOhq5/w0zoH/Qga5/4L5v8a5RP4/8ArvL/AOjW pa4nGKm0tFd/mddOMORXSP/Z --------------581EE1965E47EC30B0ECCF67-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 18 13:32:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00059 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 13:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08965; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:31:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA08415 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 12:25:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 298 invoked from network); 18 Dec 1999 18:24:14 -0000 Received: from i48-05-43.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.3.43) (216.26.3.43) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 18 Dec 1999 18:24:14 -0000 Message-ID: <385BC366.5F48@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 10:24:57 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Martin Koenig CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Searching for Organic Reference Book References: <199912171457.GAA24614@snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 983 Martin Koenig wrote: > > I have been trying to get a copy of The Organic Method Primer by Bargyla > Rateaver without any success. Does anyone have a book (or two) that they > use as their "Bible" that is still in print (or at least available?). I'm > also looking for a book that talks in depth about each crop and it's > particular needs, diseases, pests and control methods. I need answers to > such questions as "Why did my winter cabbage form loose, as opposed to > tight, heads? Was is too much rain? Planting date? Nutrient difficiency? > I am a gardener transitioning to farmer and would love some hefty volume > to read this winter and then use again and again and again in the years > ahead. Thanks! > > Margaret Hoeffel > Vashon, WA That's what I get for not always copying the list on my responses: Subject: Re: How can I find a copy of The Organic Method Primer? Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 18:30:02 -0700 From: Will Newman II Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust To: Martin Koenig References: 1 > Dear Will, I have saved an e-mail from you dated 6/2/99 that refers to a > couple of books that you recommend. I am particularly interested in The > Organic Method Primer and have been searching for it on the net without > success. I now know that it was a text book which makes it even more > difficult to locate. Can you help? I've e-mailed Ms. Rateaver but the > e-mail came back (BRateaver@aol.com) undeliverable. Any leads? Exta > copies? Where do old textbooks wind up anyway? > > Thanks, > > Margaret Hoeffel > Blue Moon Farm > Vashon Island, WA @@@@@@@@@ Margaret, As far as I know there are only two places you might get it: direct from Bargyla, or through Acres USA, which has a publications catalog. I have a possible address for Bargyla - The Rateavers, 9049 Covina Street, San Diego, CA 92126. You can contact Acres USA at P.O. Box 91299, Austin, Texas 78709, voice (512) 892-4400, fax (512) 892-4448 You may also be able to raise a response from Bargyla by asking for her on the on-line CSA list - e-mail an open query to csa-l@prairienet.org In any case, when you reach her please give her my best wishes. Good luck, Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 18 21:27:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA02571 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA17659; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:26:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17313 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 20:20:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.134]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA493 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:19:53 -0500 Message-ID: <004301bf49c9$3e123ce0$86c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: Fw: Lumbered raised beds Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:31:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 984 hi all the best results we have had has been with hemlock. here it is at least 60% cheaper than the others, & lasts a good 7-10 years we have many raised beds & all do well in hemlock! zone 5 ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. To: Elizabeth Pike Cc: Sent: Friday, December 17, 1999 11:58 AM Subject: Re: Lumbered raised beds > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Elizabeth Pike wrote: > > > Need your advice-do y'all enclose your beds with supported sides, ie > > lumber? I posted this on the Garden Web, but wanted your advice also: > > "I'm redesigning my market garden in preparation for next year. I've > > done a bit of research, but wanted to ask your opinions. I do > > intensive gardening with 4x100 ft. beds. I'd really like to enclose > > them with supported sides, ie lumber, but have read this isn't > > advisable due to cost & labor. Of course, I wouldn't use treated > > lumber-I'm non-certified organic. I think I read in an earlier post, > > How do you go about marketing your produce as non-certified organic? > What is the wording of your label, ads, etc.? I am n-c organic also > and have no plans to submit to this form of political/corporate extortion > called "organic certification". > > > maybe not even on this forum, that someone used simple pine, and that > > it had lasted 5-6 years. I can't use redwood, or cypress-too > > Southern Yellow Pine (labelled SPF) won't last very long and though strong > and hard, rots quickly. Your best bet dollar for dollar is to use what is > marketed locally as SPF (spruce-pine-fir, i.e. the lumber may be from any > of the above trees) and comes from the US Northwest. It is light and > medium hard and contains oils that make it fairly rot-resistant if > not put underground - my guess is that a 2X10 may last 5 years when > containing organic garden soil. It is relatively cheap so can be replaced > frequently without breaking the bank. It is also easy to work with - I > would use various galvanized metal accessories used in house framing to > hold the corners and spans together; these can be nailed or bolted. > Prices fluctuate on this lumber; now, a 2"X6"X96" is about $4.25. > Prices and quality vary a lot - I would hand pick all boards for > the most weight and tight grain (means more sap/oil in the wood). > > > expensive. The lumbered beds appear to be easier to cover with > > plastic/shadecloth/Reemay, and easier to keep weeded. > > For 5 years, I've gardened using the no-till method, so if a tiller > > isn't being used-this would not destroy the lumbered sides. I have a > > friend close by who is a flower market gardener. Her beds are lumbered > > & extremely easier to maintain than mine. I can get lumber fairly > > inexpensive by purchasing old, old tobacco barns that are being > > dismantled locally. These barns haven't been used for 35 years. > > > > Liz Pike > > Morningstar Gardens > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 18 22:08:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02766 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA20127; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:07:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19865 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 21:01:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.116]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA556 for ; Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:00:59 -0500 Message-ID: <001901bf49ce$fbfb3c20$74c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: dori & her farm Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 22:13:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 985 hi Dori i had saved your comments that had all your co-op stuff etc. on it. i am interested in the booklet-how do i get it? thanks a lot From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 19 08:34:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05857 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 08:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA20146; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:33:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from squealer.excite.com ([199.172.153.143]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA20065 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 07:32:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <19991219133131.HQCG315.kuku.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 05:31:31 -0800 Message-ID: <30410487.945610291615.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 05:31:30 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Food facts for the Millenium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.115 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 986 Here are some food facts I found in the October 1998 issue of Cook's illustrated (a wonderful cooking magazine with no ads and a real love for food and simplicity) 15 minutes (by 2030 it is est to drop to 5 mins) 1/3 of women over the age of 20 bake for fun, even once per year 75% of A,mericans do not at 4pm know what they will have for dinner 75% of America's children do not know how to cook In 1995 restaurant sales topped Grocery store food sales Sources of meals consumed at home are: 41% fast food restaurant takeout 21% supermarket takeout 22% home cooked meals 16% (home cooked means one thing in the meal was homemade-this includes frozen foods, canned foods as well as fresh) >From what these numbers say the Community Supported Restuarant idea is one who's time is coming. I forget who had the CSR idea but it is something my Husband and i have been talking about for about a year. It is an interesting one to me as restuarant cooking is one of my 4 marketable skills (growing food, horses, archaeology and cooking). Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 19 13:01:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07492 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04347; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 12:00:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from ewey.excite.com (ewey-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.191]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04248 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 11:59:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by fortune.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with SMTP id <19991219175635.JBPJ311.fortune.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:56:35 -0800 Message-ID: <25869854.945626195079.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Slow Food Movement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 207.90.88.183 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 987 Has anyone heard of this? I was reading some posts at the Utne cafe site and found lots on the slow food movement. they seem like the perfect folks to join a CSA-they see food as creating community and see food and eating as something to be done slowly and with joy. Here is the URL of the SFM. Enjoy. http://www.slowfood.com/ Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 19 16:28:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08780 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18785; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:27:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA18693 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 15:26:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 5453 invoked from network); 19 Dec 1999 21:25:48 -0000 Received: from i48-04-18.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.210) (216.26.2.210) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 1999 21:25:48 -0000 Message-ID: <385D3F77.4F59@teleport.com> Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 13:26:37 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth Pike CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will... References: <004101bf489f$c4770e80$02000003@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 988 Elizabeth Pike wrote: > > I've thoroughly enjoyed your posts. Please don't sign off on this > subject yet! I found the info on your particular CSA very > informative, & enlightening. When you promote covering ALL the costs > on a farm with funding solely from Harvest Shareholders/CSA members, > it scares those of us who think this means requesting too much money > at the start of the season. But seeing how your farm spreadsout that > cost, makes your viewpoint clearer, & more reasonable for the > members. I must admit, I agree more with you after reading how you > operate. And having a year round operation, as Beth pointed > out,makes this a bit more obtainable. Thanks for all your input! > Happy Holidays everyone! > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > Thnanks for the kind words. I think we blindside ourselves about cost/price. Do we expect any other business not to include all it's costs in the price for the products or services it offers? Of course not. So why do we, as growers, somehow feel we can't charge what we need to in order to have a decent life? I think it is because we don't realize/don't remember that the plastic food at the grocery store is not our competition. We aren't offering tasteless, sugared, salted, processed "soy product", we offer FOOD. There is a reason we are the most overfed and undernurished "developed" country in the world - it's the same reason we have the mose expensive health care and the worst health. We have the most advanced industrial food production and distribution system. Our competition is ignorance. We don't have to create a need - EVERYONE EATS, and almosty everyone is concerned about their health. We need to educate people about the connection between what they eat and their health. This is not complex stuff, just neglected. We offer health, energy, pleasure in eating. We don't need to create the desire. We need to let people know what we have for them. No drug dealer has a better potential. You think they worry about price? As for being year-round: we can do it here in our maritime/mediterranean climate. If you are in a climate where you can't grow food year-round, so what? Price what you grow so you can make a living. In decades of working with people in all kinds of settings there have only been two things I have never found a good way to effectively communicate: How much food is in a weekly CSA delivery People do not make choices based on price In 20+ years of consulting with businesses large and small, high-tech to basic service, new and well-established, weel-known and obscure I have learned one immutable fact. PRICE IS NOT IMPORTANT TO THE BUYER. If people want something, they will find the money. There are two exceptions to this rule - if we have two alternatives and we know of no other distinction except price, most of us will choose the lower priced item. The other case is when we go out to purchase something large (like a car). We usually have a price range in mind, and when we narrow down the choices based on other factors, the price has to be in that range (sort of). But even in that situatiuon we will often pay more than our original upper limit if we can't find a satisfactory car in our original price range. Actually, it should be simple to understand: if price were all that important then there would only be one choice of anything - the cheapest. The cheapest car, the cheapest television, the cheapest tomato. As for spreading out the payments: we aren't in the business of separating people from their money, we are in the business of providing good food. We ask for a chunk up front because we have higher costs up front, but we allow for monthly payments to make our CSA operation accessible to as many people as possible. We also give/trade a few harvest shares each year (3 this year) for those who simply can't afford the price but are doing importnat things with their lives. It's a way for us to support others building community. @@@@@@@@@ Grow the best you know how. Focus on producing good food. Build trust in yourself and your people. Then charge what you must to be able to keep growing. Believe in yourself and the value of what you do: you provide the honest opportunity to enjoy flavorful food and good health. You offer life. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 19 17:45:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA09212 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA23666; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:44:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA23583 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 16:44:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1d-181.ix.netcom.com [209.110.251.181]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11584; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:44:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <013301bf4a8b$dc63c9a0$65f86ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: <25869854.945626195079.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Subject: Re: Slow Food Movement Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 17:45:07 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 989 Hi Lucy and list, I just went to this page interesting. I wrote to the person listed for Massachusetts I asked him if he heard of CSA. We'll see if he writes back. I keep you apprized. Beth > Has anyone heard of this? I was reading some posts at the Utne cafe site and > found lots on the slow food movement. they seem like the perfect folks to > join a CSA-they see food as creating community and see food and eating as > something to be done slowly and with joy. Here is the URL of the SFM. Enjoy. > http://www.slowfood.com/ > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 19 20:55:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11058 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA06298; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:54:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA05887 for ; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 19:48:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from goatgoddess@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ET9DEJSS; Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:47:17 EST To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 20:38:38 -0500 Subject: Fw: From a farmer - a Gift We Can Give ourselves - please pass this along! Message-ID: <19991219.204114.-132393.1.goatgoddess@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 4.0.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,6-7,9,13-14,16-17,19,21-22,31-39,41,43-44,46,51-52,59-60,67-68,71-72,76-78,80-81 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: B H Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 990 got this on a private...... **************** This is a personal letter and Holiday wish. I'm writing it to you and to everyone you know - please read & re-send it today. We need to work together to make a change for the better... right away. GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOOD is UNTESTED & UNLABELED, and in our stores and kitchens right now. We have all been unwittingly eating GE food - corn & soybean products, potatoes, sugar beets, canola and cottonseed oil, even tomatoes and squash for 5 years already. Now the FDA is asking us if we think this is acceptable. It's not. A FEW EASY THINGS YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW to protect yourself, your family, organic farmers, and the environment: 1) Send a letter to the FDA. The PUBLIC COMMENT PERIOD IS ENDING soon - JAN. 13, 2000. 2) Please pass this information along to everyone you care about, and act immediately - send the FDA a Christmas card! In your letter, ask for a moratorium on all GE food until there has been long-term, pre-market safety-testing. Demand that GE food currently on the market be labeled as such. Mention the numerous health and environmental concerns regarding GE food, ie: new toxins, allergens and antibiotic resistance may be created; GE crops pose a significant threat to the environment - killing beneficial insects, cross-pollinating with organic crops and wild species; and individuals with religious or ethical dietary concerns may be unknowingly consuming foods which contain genes from other species. Please send your comments to: Commissioner Jane Henney, Docket No. 99N-4282, FDA Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305), 5630 Fishers Lane, Room 1061, Rockville, MD 20852 3) For more information on GE food and to SEND YOUR COMMENTS DIRECTLY to the FDA ON-LINE, go to http://www.foodsafetynow.org, The Center for Food Safety website. They will also mail you flyers to hand out. 4) Look at other very informative websites re: the Genetic Engineering Food Safety issue. Here are some of the best: http://www.thecampaign.org, (where you can also send comments directly from the site), http://www.sustainusa.org, http://www.turnpoint.org, http://www.bio-integrity.org, http://www.safe-food.org, http://www.iatp.org, http://www.genetic-id.com, http://www.purefood.org, and http://www.foodfirst.org. 5) You can also make a difference by registering your consumer opinion with major U S. food manufacturers. Nestle and Unilever have already promised to take GE ingredients out of their babyfoods; Nestle, Kellogg's, General Mills, Quaker, Nabisco, Kraft, McDonald's, Hershey's, Safeway, Healthy Choice, Frito-Lay and Heinz are a few of the companies whose products have tested positive for GE ingredients. Look for the 800 number on any package in your pantry, and make a call. Say something like,"This is (your name) and I'm a (company name) customer. I'm calling to give you my opinion on Genetically Engineered ingredients in your products. I'd like you to discontinue using them as soon as possible, and until that time, please label any products that contain them." They might ask for your address in order to locate you for their statistics. It's very simple and easy to call 10 companies in less than an hour, and THESE COMPANIES ARE LISTENING - YOUR CALL COUNTS! 6) You can also talk to your grocery store managers, hand out flyers, and talk to your friends & neighbors - especially those without internet access. My 42nd birthday is the day before the FDA comment deadline, just a few weeks away. Please help us get the word out. If this message reaches 10,000 people in the next few weeks, well, it'll be a very Happy Birthday for me, and I hope a very Happy New Year for you. Sincerely, Ericka Dana - Catnip Farm (speaker #76 at the FDA's GE food hearing in Chicago, Nov. 18, 1999 - http://www.fda.gov/oc/biotech - scroll WAY DOWN!) ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 07:05:36 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA14832 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 07:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA08364; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:04:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA07844 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 05:56:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.56] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A91711CA0248; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:55:03 -0500 Message-ID: <003a01bf4ae1$90e83fa0$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: , "Lucy Goodman-Owsley" Subject: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:58:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF4AB7.A71F9A40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 991 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF4AB7.A71F9A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the website addy for "Slow Food." I had heard of these = people before, but hadn't thought to look up their website. I can vouch = for what these people are saying, and the statistics you gave from = Cook's Illustrated. The restaurant my husband owns is a fast food = one-not the golden arches, or the king or little girl one. I have = witnessed the decline of the family for 20 years, while his business has = grown. We have customers, with their families, come in 3-4 times per = week! I don't know how they can stand it!! They all joke, somewhat = proudly, how they don't know how to cook. It's so depressing. And even = my husband, will remark to them that they should learn, for their = children's sake! It is so noticeable to us, that other than eating at = our place, about once every 2 weeks, we don't eat at fast food = restaurants at all. We save our nickles & dimes and splurge on the = white tablecloth/real silverware type where our girls can actually = expand their taste horizons-minus all the salt, msg, and additives too = numerous to name. If we're traveling we take picnics along. I agree = with Slow Food, our whole society has been deeply affected by the "fast = fooding" of everything. CSA restaurants may be the answer, but it makes = me very sad to think that. Families belong at home at meal time. In = the newsletters I passed out at my market stand last year, (and when I = have a CSA), I input recipes for my veggies that are simple & quick. If = possible I use the 3-5 ingredient format of some recent cookbooks that = espouse cooking this way. It seems to win over the ones who are = extremely busy, and several customers actually began cooking a bit, = instead of eating everything as a salad (although, that isn't too bad = either). I've often thought a fast-food type, organic, vegetarian = franchise restaurant would be a great investment to start. Anyone wanna = do it?? Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF4AB7.A71F9A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Thanks for the website addy for "Slow Food."  I had heard of = these=20 people before, but hadn't thought to look up their website.  I can = vouch=20 for what these people are saying, and the statistics you = gave from=20 Cook's Illustrated.  The restaurant my husband owns is a  fast = food=20 one-not the golden arches, or the king or little girl one.  I=20 have witnessed the decline of the family for 20 years, while his = business=20 has grown.  We have customers, with their families, come in 3-4 = times per=20 week!  I don't know how they can stand it!!  They all = joke,=20 somewhat proudly, how they don't know how to cook.  It's so=20 depressing.  And even my husband, will remark to them that they = should=20 learn, for their children's sake!  It is so noticeable to us, that = other=20 than eating at our place, about once every 2 weeks, we don't eat at fast = food=20 restaurants at all.  We save our nickles & dimes and splurge on = the=20 white tablecloth/real silverware type where our girls can = actually expand=20 their taste horizons-minus all the salt, msg, and additives too = numerous to=20 name.  If we're traveling we take picnics along.  I agree with = Slow=20 Food, our whole society has been deeply affected by the "fast fooding" = of=20 everything.  CSA restaurants may be the answer, but it makes me = very sad to=20 think that.  Families belong at home at meal time.  In = the=20 newsletters I passed out at my market stand last year, (and when I have = a CSA),=20 I input recipes for my veggies that are simple & quick.  If = possible I=20 use the 3-5 ingredient format of some recent cookbooks that espouse = cooking this=20 way.  It seems to win over the ones who are extremely busy, and = several=20 customers actually began cooking a bit, instead of eating everything as = a salad=20 (although, that isn't too bad either).  I've often thought a = fast-food=20 type, organic, vegetarian franchise restaurant would be a great = investment=20 to start.  Anyone wanna do it??
     
    Morningstar Gardens
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01BF4AB7.A71F9A40-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 10:03:18 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16996 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20599; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:02:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA19888 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:56:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.23] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A36866B7012E; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:36 -0500 Message-ID: <002401bf4afa$c67b1de0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Allan Balliett" , References: Subject: Re: Food Statistics Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:59:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 992 ----- Original Message ----- From: Allan Balliett > > Sorry, I'm writing an article that references the percent of meals eaten > out of the home. I do not have as much info as I would like. What are the > statistics you reference above? (I didn't see them on CSA-L) Thanks -Allan Here's the info: Lucy stated: >Here are some food facts I found in the October 1998 issue of Cook's >illustrated (a wonderful cooking magazine with no ads and a real love for >food and simplicity) >15 minutes (by 2030 it is est to drop to 5 mins) >1/3 of women over the age of 20 bake for fun, even once per year >75% of A,mericans do not at 4pm know what they will have for dinner >75% of America's children do not know how to cook >In 1995 restaurant sales topped Grocery store food sales >Sources of meals consumed at home are: >41% fast food >restaurant takeout 21% >supermarket takeout 22% >home cooked meals 16% (home cooked means one thing in the meal was >homemade-this includes frozen foods, canned foods as well as fresh) >From what these numbers say the Community Supported Restuarant idea is one >who's time is coming. I forget who had the CSR idea but it is something my >Husband and i have been talking about for about a year. It is an interesting >one to me as restuarant cooking is one of my 4 marketable skills (growing >food, horses, archaeology and cooking). Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 13:35:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20704 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09383; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:34:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08488 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:23:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.23] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3C94C303A6; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: <002201bf4b17$9da795c0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "kerry wicker" , References: <19991220154404.19103.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:25:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 993 > I would like to. where? your town? > Kerry Wicker > Tahoe, NV >> I've often thought a fast-food type, organic, vegetarian franchise restaurant >>would be a great investment to start. Anyone wanna do it?? > > > >Liz Pike > >Morningstar Gardens This was not a serious question. I have enough on my plate as it is now-no pun intended! Liz From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 13:42:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA20704 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA09383; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:34:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08488 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:23:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.23] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3C94C303A6; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:22:01 -0500 Message-ID: <002201bf4b17$9da795c0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "kerry wicker" , References: <19991220154404.19103.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:25:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 994 > I would like to. where? your town? > Kerry Wicker > Tahoe, NV >> I've often thought a fast-food type, organic, vegetarian franchise restaurant >>would be a great investment to start. Anyone wanna do it?? > > > >Liz Pike > >Morningstar Gardens This was not a serious question. I have enough on my plate as it is now-no pun intended! Liz From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 17:18:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24804 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29558; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:17:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f286.hotmail.com [216.32.180.140]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA28945 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:11:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 7332 invoked by uid 0); 20 Dec 1999 22:11:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19991220221101.7331.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:11:01 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Food facts for the Millenium Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:11:01 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 995 Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote: ...the Community Supported Restuarant idea is one >who's time is coming. I forget who had the CSR idea but it is something my >Husband and i have been talking about for about a year. Absolutely right! At first I gnashed my teeth when people demurred about joining the CSA and said "maybe if you cooked it for me". My initial (unspoken) response was "Oh, should I chew it for you too? I'm not doing enough already growing it and delivering it to your door?" Sigh. Trends are trends. I'm glad I left the thoughts unspoken; I might have alienated a significant part of my future market! Let those who are willing to do the work reap the benefits, let those who are willing to pay for that work reap their own rewards. CSAs can create a _lot_ of rural jobs. If meals on wheels can work for the homebound, why not for the harried working class? And if there's a profit to be made, what's wrong with that? I'm talking about this with a popular local restaurant next week -- prepaid plans for meals to go featuring good local produce, with me hosting a web page of each evening's menu choices and e-mail and fax ordering. All the member has to do is show up at the restaurant to pick up their hot supper, and we'll probably add delivery in the near future. I'm also finally (gasp) setting up with a web host that will allow me to do online credit card payments. Methinks I am being dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st centure. Landru, guide us! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm Technical Writer & Dirt Farmer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 17:24:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24883 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA00188; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:23:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f16.hotmail.com [216.32.181.16]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29288 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:14:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 43518 invoked by uid 0); 20 Dec 1999 22:14:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19991220221414.43517.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:14:14 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Slow Food Movement Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:14:14 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 996 Lucy Goodman-Owsley they see food as creating community and see food and >eating as >something to be done slowly and with joy. Somebody at the high school I'm working at just griped to the Home Ec teacher that all the kids loved her class because they get to sit around and eat and talk. To which she quite rightly replied, "And what more important stuff is there in life?" Good answer! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 17:30:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25038 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01000; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:29:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f253.hotmail.com [216.32.180.194]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA29763 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 16:19:19 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 11266 invoked by uid 0); 20 Dec 1999 22:18:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19991220221847.11265.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 14:18:47 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:18:47 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 997 If I can make $40,000 a year working in an office 35-40 hours a week, why should I settle for a penny less running a CSA -- especially when it involves more like 60-80 hours per week? Sure, I'm willing to diversify and be creative and take on additional work when necessary. But there's no reason I should settle for trying to live on $10,000 just because I love what I'm doing and I don't have to commute. That's part of the model I'm striving to develop. If it ain't economically sustainable, how dare we call it sustainable agriculture? Farmers deserve to make a decent living, and CSA should be a way they can achieve that objective. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 20 18:12:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25794 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05588; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:11:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04895 for ; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 17:05:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.87] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A60C4351011C; Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:04:44 -0500 Message-ID: <001501bf4b3f$1cc41aa0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Dori Green" , Subject: Income Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 18:08:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF4B15.330AB780" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 998 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF4B15.330AB780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From Dori: =20 > If I can make $40,000 a year working in an office 35-40 hours a week, = why=20 > should I settle for a penny less running a CSA -- especially when it=20 > involves more like 60-80 hours per week? You go girl !! Right behind you !! ; ) Liz Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF4B15.330AB780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    From Dori:
     
    > If I can make $40,000 a year working in an office 35-40 hours = a week,=20 why
    > should I settle for a penny less running a CSA -- = especially when=20 it
    > involves more like 60-80 hours per week?
     
    You go girl !!  Right behind you !!  ; )
    ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BF4B15.330AB780-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 10:23:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04962 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08274; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:22:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA07692 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 09:15:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from pavilion (pts0207.gamewood.net [206.229.249.54]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA28898 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:15:13 -0500 Message-ID: <004601bf4bc5$f9a14700$36f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" References: <25869854.945626195079.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Subject: Re: Slow Food Movement Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:13:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 999 Lucy and List, I'm a little behind in my email so if I'm repeating others, forgive me. I first heard of the Slow Food Movement on National Public Radio!!!!! It was either on "All things Considered", or on "Marketplace". It does sound like these folks would be interested in CSA's. I recommend you listen to these programs if you have a chance, they usually have some great segments on agriculture, and while one of the sponsors of public radio is ADM (Price fixer of the world...OOPS!... I mean supermaket to the world, don't I?) Been thinking for a while that these programs could do a segment on CSA's, but I'm selfish and figure that if I'm going to contact them about CSA's, I'm going to wait until I've got my CSA started. Also think public radio could be a great place for advertising... you get a little "commercial" for a certain amount of donation. Another media source that did a piece about CSA's is "Cooking Light" magazine, April 1998 issue- I'm saving mine for customer education purposes. I think education and publicity are vital to getting CSA members and if these sources are more mainstream the better.... as in "I've never heard of this CSA thing from sources other than you, and you want me to pay up front with no guarantee of delivery?! Do I look like a fool? Take your scam elsewhere!" Many people have never heard of CSA so 3rd party information is important to establish credability. Amy Johnsons' Produce Patch Long Island VA ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:56 PM Subject: Slow Food Movement > Has anyone heard of this? I was reading some posts at the Utne cafe site and > found lots on the slow food movement. they seem like the perfect folks to > join a CSA-they see food as creating community and see food and eating as > something to be done slowly and with joy. Here is the URL of the SFM. Enjoy. > http://www.slowfood.com/ > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 12:27:04 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07118 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA22941; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:25:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21877 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:20:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from pavilion (pts0306.gamewood.net [206.229.249.69]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01510 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:20:02 -0500 Message-ID: <018401bf4bd7$69b3b4e0$36f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: educating and cooking Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:32:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_011E_01BF4BA7.0CAC3FE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01BF4BA7.0CAC3FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still in the planning stages of my CSA and it seems to me that = educating our shareholders is vital to the cause, and a newsletter with = simple recipes included is a great way to go. Thanks to Julia for sharing the newsletter from Mariquita Farm, a great = example- do you also share farm news with your shareholders? ie: Weeding = this week, planting broccoli etc.? I've been collecting recipes that I think will be useful, but I wonder = if all I have to do to use a published recipe is to credit the = author/magazine ? Or do I need some kind of written permission = (copyright infringement worries- since in essence we are "selling" their = recipes as part of the CSA), or to develop my own recipe different = enough from the original? Any ideas? Anyone ever actually check this out = with a cookbook/magazine? Amy ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01BF4BA7.0CAC3FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I'm still in the planning stages of my CSA and it = seems to me=20 that educating our shareholders is vital to the cause, and a newsletter = with=20 simple recipes included is a great way to go.
     
    Thanks to Julia for sharing the newsletter from = Mariquita=20 Farm, a great example- do you also share farm news with your = shareholders? ie:=20 Weeding this week, planting broccoli etc.?
     
    I've been collecting recipes that I think will be = useful, but=20 I wonder if all I have to do to use a published recipe is to credit the=20 author/magazine ? Or do I need some kind of written permission = (copyright=20 infringement worries- since in essence we are "selling" their recipes as = part of=20 the CSA), or to develop my own recipe different enough from the = original? Any=20 ideas? Anyone ever actually check this out with a=20 cookbook/magazine?
     
    Amy
    ------=_NextPart_000_011E_01BF4BA7.0CAC3FE0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 14:10:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08876 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA07672; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:08:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29875 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:16:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.89] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A3A711702B4; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bf4bdf$d9786700$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Amy and Eric Johnson" , References: <018401bf4bd7$69b3b4e0$36f9e5ce@pavilion> Subject: Newsletters & Recipes Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:18:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4BB5.EF850820" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1001 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4BB5.EF850820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >I'm still in the planning stages of my CSA and it seems to me that = educating our shareholders is vital to the cause, and a newsletter with = simple recipes included is a great way to go. Thanks to Julia for sharing the newsletter from Mariquita Farm, a = great example- do you also share farm news with your shareholders? ie: = Weeding this week, planting broccoli etc.?< I do this on my website, to which I direct all my customers. I also = put the same info in print form to pass out to those who are not = connected. I haven't started my CSA yet either. This year I am = "pretending" to have 10 members. So I am planning, planting, = harvesting, etc as if I had these members. I'm actually selling the = produce at the Farmer's Market, where I will pass out info on the real = CSA which I will start next year. I wanted a year to practice!! I = figure this will enable me to get farther down the learning curve before = actually having members-though I know I will still make mistakes when = I'm up and running officially. As for the farm chores, it really brings = home to the customers that this food took work to grow!! They like to = know about the drought, the overabundance of eggplant, the gargantuan = alien weeds, and the timing it takes to bring their food to them. I've = run into several customers this past month & they missed the newsletter = this month-no crops-I wasn't at the FM. As for the recipes, I've = wondered the same thing. I usually print them, giving credit where due. = I don't think you'll get in trouble if it is just a recipe or two, if = proper recognition is given. I rarely do this though since most of my = recipes are my own. =20 Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4BB5.EF850820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
     
    >I'm still=20 in the planning stages of my CSA and it seems to me that educating our = shareholders is vital to the cause, and a newsletter with simple = recipes=20 included is a great way to go.
     
    Thanks to Julia for sharing the newsletter from = Mariquita=20 Farm, a great example- do you also share farm news with your = shareholders? ie:=20 Weeding this week, planting broccoli etc.?<
     
    I do this on my website, to which I direct all my=20 customers.  I also put the same info in print form to pass out to = those=20 who are not connected.  I haven't started my CSA yet = either.  This=20 year I am "pretending" to have 10 members.  So I am = planning,=20 planting, harvesting, etc as if I had these members.  I'm = actually=20 selling the produce at the Farmer's Market, where I will pass out info = on the=20 real CSA which I will start next year.  I wanted a year to=20 practice!!  I figure this will enable me to get farther down the = learning=20 curve before actually having members-though I know I will still make = mistakes=20 when I'm up and running officially.  As for the farm chores, it = really=20 brings home to the customers that this food took work to grow!!  = They=20 like to know about the drought, the overabundance of eggplant, the = gargantuan=20 alien weeds, and the timing it takes to bring their food to = them.  I've=20 run into several customers this past month & they missed the = newsletter=20 this month-no crops-I wasn't at the FM.  As for the recipes, I've = wondered the same thing.  I usually print them, = giving credit where=20 due.  I don't think you'll get in trouble if it is just a = recipe or=20 two, if proper recognition is given.  I rarely do this though = since most=20 of my recipes are my own.  
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar = Gardens  
     
     
    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01BF4BB5.EF850820-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 14:15:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA08961 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA08725; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:14:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04215 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 12:52:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.89] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AC007E850142; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:50:40 -0500 Message-ID: <000701bf4be4$d24c36a0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: recipes Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:54:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF4BBA.E8ACC420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1002 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF4BBA.E8ACC420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For those of you needing recipes for your newsletters this site is = great. On-line customers should find one for every taste! http://www.yumyum.com/recipes.htm I include this link with my newsletters, and occasionally copy one off = for unplugged customers. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF4BBA.E8ACC420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    For those of you needing recipes for your newsletters this site is=20 great.  On-line customers should find one for every taste!
     
    http://www.yumyum.com/recipes.= htm
     
    I include this link with my newsletters, and occasionally copy one = off for=20 unplugged customers.
     
    Liz Pike
     =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF4BBA.E8ACC420-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 14:33:47 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09319 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA11579; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:32:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (f18.hotmail.com [207.82.250.29]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA10746 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:27:08 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 36107 invoked by uid 0); 21 Dec 1999 19:26:35 -0000 Message-ID: <19991221192635.36106.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.178.103.193 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:26:35 PST X-Originating-IP: [208.178.103.193] From: "kerry wicker" To: akjedj@gamewood.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Slow Food Movement Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 11:26:35 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1003 Hi List: And in adding to Amy and Eric's post about spreading the word/marketing CSAs, I would like to add another: Farmers could advertise in Gourmet magazine; it is about food,the cooking of and enjoying of! This is right in line w/the concept of slow food, etc etc etc. Don't know what the advertsing cost is, but it is an option. another is to have the magazine do an article. kerry >From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" >To: "CSA list" >Subject: Re: Slow Food Movement >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 10:13:44 -0500 > >Lucy and List, > >I'm a little behind in my email so if I'm repeating others, forgive me. I >first heard of the Slow Food Movement on National Public Radio!!!!! It was >either on "All things Considered", or on "Marketplace". It does sound like >these folks would be interested in CSA's. I recommend you listen to these >programs if you have a chance, they usually have some great segments on >agriculture, and while one of the sponsors of public radio is ADM (Price >fixer of the world...OOPS!... I mean supermaket to the world, don't I?) >Been >thinking for a while that these programs could do a segment on CSA's, but >I'm selfish and figure that if I'm going to contact them about CSA's, I'm >going to wait until I've got my CSA started. Also think public radio could >be a great place for advertising... you get a little "commercial" for a >certain amount of donation. Another media source that did a piece about >CSA's is "Cooking Light" magazine, April 1998 issue- I'm saving mine for >customer education purposes. I think education and publicity are vital to >getting CSA members and if these sources are more mainstream the better.... >as in "I've never heard of this CSA thing from sources other than you, and >you want me to pay up front with no guarantee of delivery?! Do I look like >a >fool? Take your scam elsewhere!" Many people have never heard of CSA so 3rd >party information is important to establish credability. > >Amy >Johnsons' Produce Patch >Long Island VA > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley >To: >Sent: Sunday, December 19, 1999 12:56 PM >Subject: Slow Food Movement > > > > Has anyone heard of this? I was reading some posts at the Utne cafe site >and > > found lots on the slow food movement. they seem like the perfect folks >to > > join a CSA-they see food as creating community and see food and eating >as > > something to be done slowly and with joy. Here is the URL of the SFM. >Enjoy. > > http://www.slowfood.com/ > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > > Boulder Belt CSA > > New Paris, OH > > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 14:53:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09842 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA14999; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:52:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13943 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:47:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from pavilion (pts0306.gamewood.net [206.229.249.69]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08034 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:47:06 -0500 Message-ID: <000901bf4beb$f4fd4520$45f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Fw: educating/cooking/recipes Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 14:45:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1004 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich & Ericka Dana To: Amy and Eric Johnson Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 1999 2:44 PM Subject: Re: educating/cooking/recipes > > OOOPS! > I think I shot off a blank, there.. sorry. > Anyway, last season I bought all my members copies of the "Rolling Prairie CSA cookbook - avail. through Growing for Market. Our season was SO hard that the newsleters and recipe flyers didn't get done - growing the food was all I could (barely) manage after the July drought hit. If you get 2 dz. I think they cost only $9. ea. I gave them free to my renewed members and new members paid cost if they wanted one (ie: you invest in me, I'll invest in you...). > Ericka - Catnip Farm > P.S. - I get posts on the CSA-L but can't put them there, so if you want to share this note, go ahead and post it! Good luck w/ your CSA - > > ---------- > > I'm still in the planning stages of my CSA and it seems to me that educating our > > shareholders is vital to the cause, and a newsletter with simple recipes > > included is a great way to go. > > > > Thanks to Julia for sharing the newsletter from Mariquita Farm, a great > > example- do you also share farm news with your shareholders? ie: Weeding this > > week, planting broccoli etc.? > > > > I've been collecting recipes that I think will be useful, but I wonder if all > > I have to do to use a published recipe is to credit the author/magazine ? Or > > do I need some kind of written permission (copyright infringement worries- > > since in essence we are "selling" their recipes as part of the CSA), or to > > develop my own recipe different enough from the original? Any ideas? Anyone > > ever actually check this out with a cookbook/magazine? > > > > > > Amy > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 21 16:26:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11177 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26060; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:26:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f242.hotmail.com [216.32.181.242]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25317 for ; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 15:19:43 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 44422 invoked by uid 0); 21 Dec 1999 21:19:11 -0000 Message-ID: <19991221211911.44421.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:19:11 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Newsletters & Recipes Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 16:19:11 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1005 Re: copyrights -- if in doubt, ask (in writing). For newsletters with circulation of less than 5,000, citing the source (giving credit) will almost always keep you out of trouble, especially if you include the ISBN number and purchasing information (where to buy the whole cookbook, and how much it costs). Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 15:01:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26450 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA28322; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:01:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27746 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:54:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from magic.excite.com ([199.172.148.161]) by gigi.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <19991222194845.OOVO4017.gigi.excite.com@magic.excite.com> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:48:45 -0800 Message-ID: <8231310.945892125708.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 11:48:45 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: CSR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.166 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1006 Binking about the Community Supported restaurant idea a lot the past few days. Talked to a friend of mine who is a cook and he thought this idea sounded a lot like a country club (not politically, culturally or economically- just how food would be dealt with) People join and their $$ supports the restaurant. We decided $2000 a year per person sounded about right (a family of four would pay $8,000) and than we got bogged down on how many dinners per week would be served. We started with 4 dinners than decided there would be a lot of people missing meals. next we discussed whether or not this would be an eat-in facility or carry out only. Carry out only would be LOTS cheaper but a communal dinning room would definately foster community. Than it was mentiuoned that meals could be served to non-members but I shot that down because I like Will's philosophy that CSA should cater to members only and to do anything else is unfair to the members. Plus opening up the meals to outsiders would really complicate the cooks job and could cause the farm to underproduce. So, who is going to open the first CSR in the US? Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 15:21:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26867 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA00062; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:21:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29488 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:15:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.131]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA93 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: <00b601bf4cba$faa4de00$83c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: recipes Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:27:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1007 hi all:) happy holidays!! the berkeley website has over 65 000 recipes!! if you use your search engine & ask for "SOAR"(searchable online recipe archives) it will give you the searchable... as a choice. it is broken up into sections. this is great! has a canning & preserving page etc. also, one thing i found sells a lot are preserves"home canning" the -sorry about the name brand-Bernardin homepage -the guys who make preserving jars-has tons of free recipes. remember, you don't need to use commercial pectin-use early apples-freeze them if you must-and other naturally high pectin fruits. good luck all. p.s. bread is also a biggie-again, go to another name brand-sorry-fleishmann's??? spelling? homepage. they have great recipes. the extra bread & preserves helps in raising the value given & interest in real food-for a change! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 15:31:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27022 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01160; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:31:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29646 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:17:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.131]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA220 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:16:57 -0500 Message-ID: <00c201bf4cbb$3e9af040$83c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: gourmet mag Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:29:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1008 hi gourmet is frightfully expensive-we know a food stylist who does work for them. many of the smaller focused local papers & community papers can beeter help csa- i think- because this is your market-yes? no? comments? From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 15:41:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27256 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA01932; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:41:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01127 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:31:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.131]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA468 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:30:36 -0500 Message-ID: <014901bf4cbd$271ff940$83c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: Fw: Tesco says no to GM animal feed Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:43:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1009 hey list i thought this would be of some interest to those of you in the organic & csa world!!! yeah!!!!!!!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: COG Listserv To: COG Listserv Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:59 AM Subject: FW: Tesco says no to GM animal feed > X-From_: eheise@cyberus.ca Mon Dec 20 12:31:02 1999 > Return-Path: > Delivered-To: gaiaone@cybertap..com > X-Sender: eheise@cyberus.ca > Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 15:26:41 -0500 > To: coglist@gks.com > From: Eleanor Heise > Subject: FW: Tesco says no to GM animal feed > Cc: organic@mts.net, hart.haidn@home.com, > homestead.organics@sympatico.ca, rjannasch@cox.nsac.ns.ca, > speach@mail.island.net, theschum@web.net, > williamj..reid3@sympatico.ca, dunbrae@sympatico.ca, > duckcreek@saltspring.com, idontsprayit@hotmail.com, > nona@interlog.com, kpbroad@email.msn.com, mikebar@igs.net, > rvdkam@iname.com, eirving@cyberus.ca, woodnest@magma.ca, > jennip@scilink.org, 900654@ican.net, sen@link.ca, hforsey@magma.ca, > rseidel@pop.web.net, "Rosalind Hobart" > > >Subject: Tesco says no to GM animal feed > > > >December 20th/99 > > > >TOP UK RETAILER SAYS NO TO GM ANIMAL FEED > >Dramatic impact for Canadian Farmers and Retailers > >(Toronto/UK) Today, the largest food retailer in the UK, TESCO, announced > >a plan to stop using genetically modified (GM) animal feed. > >"This is crucial for the market since animal feed accounts for 80% of GM > >crop sales." said Greenpeace genetic engineering campaigner Michael Khoo. > >Other retailers like Sainsbury, Marks & Spencer and Iceland foods are also > >phasing out GM animal feed. "This will have a dramatic impact on GM seed > >sales in Canada." said Khoo. > > > >The announcement sheds doubt on Canadian retailers' claims that they cannot > >label GM food. "If TESCO can take GMOs out of animal feed, Loblaws can get > >them out of human food. At the very least, this separation of GMOs proves > >that labelling GM food is possible for Loblaws." added Khoo. > >In a letter sent to Cargill (the largest grain exporter in the US) & ADM, > >TESCO's Martin Cooke said "Removal of GM ingredients from animal feeds is > >achievable through a phased process and that this can and must be done > >without incurring extra cost for our customers." Grain handlers and food > >processors such as Cargill and ADM are responsible for the separation of > >GMOs from non-GMOs. > >"It is clear to us that our customers are concerned about the use of GM > >crops for animal feed and that they would like us to take steps to remove > >them." Cooke continued. The process will begin in spring 2000 the letter > >said. > >"This puts the nail in the coffin for the argument that segregation and > >labelling are not possible." said Khoo > >* - 30- > > > > > >Full TESCO letter available on request > >For more information: > >Michael Khoo, Greenpeace: 416-597-8408, cell:416-569-8408 > >For information in French: > >Nadine Bachand-cell: 514-898-3587 > >Johanne Fillion: 514-933-0021 > > > Eleanor Heise > President, Canadian Organic Growers (COG) > Tamarak Organic Farm, RR 3, Shawville, Quebec J0X 2Y0 > Phone 819-647-3487 e-mail > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 15:49:06 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27365 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02800; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:48:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02196 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:43:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from tiptoe ([199.172.153.108]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <19991222203810.PFSS4214.ewey.excite.com@tiptoe> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:38:10 -0800 Message-ID: <1146367.945895090018.JavaMail.imail@tiptoe> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 12:38:09 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: gourmet mag Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.161 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1010 I agree. Ads in national mags are expensive and they are not local. CSA are a local phenom and should be advertised as such through local papers, newsletter etc. Now an infomative article in Gourmet would be helpful to educate folks but an ad would be almost worthless unless there were a national CSA info clearing house to match people up with a CSA in their area. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 16:14:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27642 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05183; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:14:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from main.tellink.net (root@main.tellink.net [208.3.160.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04586 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:08:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from barthunte.tellink.net (pm-4-4.tellink.net [208.3.161.116]) by main.tellink.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA13515 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:08:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002501bf4cc0$498136e0$74a103d0@tellink.net> From: "W. Bart Hunter" To: References: <8231310.945892125708.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Subject: Re: CSR Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:05:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1011 I'm not sure how well a CSR would work, but I would like to mention another idea that has been tried and does work which avoids some of the problems you mentioned. In fact it can be used to support CSA's as well. That idea is alternative currency. In the Connecticut River Valley of Massachusetts they use Valley Dollars in several towns. The "dollars" do not translate into Federal dollars, instead their value is set by the people conducting the transaction. The dollars are not accepted outside of the area. Thus if you owned a restaurant or a farm in the area you could accept a certain percentage of Valley Dollars as partial payment for goods of services--shares in a CSA or as payment for a meal. In turn you could use them to purchases supplies for your CSA or whatever you needed from local people who accept the currency. The whole point is to short circuit the drain of Federal dollars from small towns by the large chain stores--Wal-Mart comes to mind. A few years ago it was estimated that the equivalent of over a Million Fed. dollars were retained in the towns which support the system. So the next time you buy from a large chain--consider where your dollar ends up and how much stays in town in the form of wages or taxes. Another way to think of it as every community has its own currency for use in the community. Needless to say this does not do away with the need for universally accepted Federal dollars, but it does help support the local community which in turn helps a CSA. Bart A farm in every community, a community around every farm. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 16:20:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27715 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA05778; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:20:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04858 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:11:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.131]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA266 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:11:08 -0500 Message-ID: <003f01bf4cc2$d0efb500$83c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: References: <8231310.945892125708.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Subject: Re: CSR Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:23:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1012 $8 000 for a family of four?? wow that is a years's worth of rent here. i don't think a restaurant csa could work that way-how about whatwe do here on occasion. we have a farm house-big i guess-we have dinners sold in advance for the growing season. the members are first given the opportunity to "purchase" their night out-next are the "outsiders". we used to own a restaurant in the area, so maybe it gives us an edge, but we found that most of the new faces never had heard of us---so, you never know. well, the meals are strictly "home-grown" our veggies & preserves, sauces, even the meat is all within a 5 mile radius-FROM A LOCAL FARM-we are lucky enought o have a large organic community out here-i guess we all love to grow & live in Zone 5 ontario BURRRR-minus 15 celsius here with the wind chill tonight! we can't live off the share prices as some can-we couldn't plant until june 4 here this year-had a wonderful hurricane the first week!. we have just spent over $35 000 on a year round greenhouse system that will eventually run off wind power:cost is prohibitive right now. we serve what we preserve. the chicken & beef etc., are first rate-our kitchen meets all health dept. regulations, & we love the "country dinner" atmosphere of a big family-we have no children.it has enriched our lives. this "restaurant csa" is working so far. p.s. we have a fellow here who charges $150 per person for a 5 course farm raised meal & he is booked 6 months in advance on his farm! zone 5 ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 2:48 PM Subject: CSR > Binking about the Community Supported restaurant idea a lot the past few > days. Talked to a friend of mine who is a cook and he thought this idea > sounded a lot like a country club (not politically, culturally or > economically- just how food would be dealt with) People join and their $$ > supports the restaurant. We decided $2000 a year per person sounded about > right (a family of four would pay $8,000) and than we got bogged down on how > many dinners per week would be served. We started with 4 dinners than > decided there would be a lot of people missing meals. next we discussed > whether or not this would be an eat-in facility or carry out only. Carry out > only would be LOTS cheaper but a communal dinning room would definately > foster community. Than it was mentiuoned that meals could be served to > non-members but I shot that down because I like Will's philosophy that CSA > should cater to members only and to do anything else is unfair to the > members. Plus opening up the meals to outsiders would really complicate the > cooks job and could cause the farm to underproduce. > So, who is going to open the first CSR in the US? > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 16:38:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA27952 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA07354; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:38:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06826 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:32:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from junkpile - 63.15.3.228 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:32:24 -0800 From: "Toni Hawryluk" To: Subject: ..... real food ..... Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:05:41 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0ca2024322116c9CPIMSSMTPU09@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1013 From: Robert Ripley p.s. we have a fellow here who charges $150 per person for a 5 course farm >raised meal & he is booked 6 months in advance on his farm! >zone 5 ontario Must be a reaction to that ole "Soylent Green" movie ..... ;- ) ..... Toni Hawryluk Seattle tonihawr@email.msn.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 17:07:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28319 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA10238; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:01:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from gigi.excite.com ([199.172.152.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09397 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:55:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from prance.excite.com ([199.172.153.84]) by ewey.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <19991222215343.PVYT4214.ewey.excite.com@prance.excite.com> for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:53:43 -0800 Message-ID: <6003189.945899623767.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:53:42 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.168 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1014 On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:23:37 -0500, Robert Ripley wrote: > $8 000 for a family of four?? I got this figure from a charge of $10.00 per meal X 4 meals per week X 50 weeks a year. If one were to charge less than $10 per meal than the whole operation would lose money, I believe. As it is this would a bare bone operation at this price. Remember most people have more money (lots more) than most of us farmer types and $10,000 yr for rent is pretty average for urban dwellers. I also did not mention this; CSR would put 2 or more farms to work supplying all the produce, meats and grains (remewmber this is still hypothetical) for the year. Yes greenhouses would be required for most areas to do out of season growing. The members would of course have opportunities to visit and work on "their farms" as in a regular CSA model. In these days of ever dwindling cooks this seems to be an option for the future of farm marketing. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 17:42:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28722 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13472; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:42:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA12957 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:36:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 298 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 22:34:55 -0000 Received: from i48-04-40.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.232) (216.26.2.232) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 22:34:55 -0000 Message-ID: <38614432.F25@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:35:48 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dori Green CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) References: <19991220221847.11265.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1015 Dori Green wrote: "If I can make $40,000 a year working in an office 35-40 hours a week, why should I settle for a penny less running a CSA -- especially when it involves more like 60-80 hours per week? "Sure, I'm willing to diversify and be creative and take on additional work when necessary. But there's no reason I should settle for trying to live on $10,000 just because I love what I'm doing and I don't have to commute. "That's part of the model I'm striving to develop. If it ain't economically sustainable, how dare we call it sustainable agriculture? Farmers deserve to make a decent living, and CSA should be a way they can achieve that objective. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm" @@@@@@@@@@@@ Takes me three pages, takes you three paragraphs! Yes, yes, and yes!!!! Thanks. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 17:48:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28840 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13969; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:47:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA13034 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:37:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.105]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA348; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:36:52 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bf4cce$cb39ccc0$69c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA Networking List" , "Toni Hawryluk" References: <0ca2024322116c9CPIMSSMTPU09@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: ..... real food ..... Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:49:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1016 it wouldn't surprise me! ----- Original Message ----- From: Toni Hawryluk To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 5:05 PM Subject: ..... real food ..... > From: Robert Ripley (snip) > >p.s. we have a fellow here who charges $150 per person for a 5 course farm > >raised meal & he is booked 6 months in advance on his farm! > >zone 5 ontario > > > Must be a reaction to that ole "Soylent Green" movie ..... ;- ) ..... > > Toni Hawryluk > Seattle > tonihawr@email.msn.com > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 17:53:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28953 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14724; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:53:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f241.hotmail.com [216.32.181.241]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13212 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:38:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 26718 invoked by uid 0); 22 Dec 1999 22:38:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19991222223825.26717.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:38:25 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSR Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:38:25 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1017 Instead of reinventing the wheel or trying to learn a whole new enterprise, I've been working on the support of a worker-owned specialty foods business whose members buy several garden shares in the CSA, plus an alliance with a popular local restaurant. We're going to start by offering "farm-fresh home-grown dinners" for takeout twice a week to pre-paid "supper club" members only. Hey, it's a learning curve. My past experiences with restaurants have not been terrific (great relationship with a chef, then boom, he's gone and the new guy just buys from Sysco, great relationship with an owner who orders a carload of fresh veggies and then announces when I arrive at the appointed hour "Gee, some guy with a truckload stopped by half an hour ago and I bought everything for the next week from him"). I'll give it a try but I will NOT hold my breath. The restaurant and I are still working out the details but basically people will pay $8 each for takeout dinners featuring items from Ash Grove Community Farm. This option will be offered in addition to the Garden Shares Co-op. The restaurant does catering so it's like I'm ordering the catering service and selling them the materials at an attractive price; I'll also include information sheets to go with the meals (what's new this week at the farm, interesting trivia about the produce, etc.). I'll have to have at least 10 members ordering meals on any one day before the restaurant will consider this venture. I don't know if I'll be able to convince people to plan in advance to make this fly, but God Bless Databases and Faxes. The WOB is taking ten shares at $200 each, by the way. $100 a week. I'll carry their preserves and other goodies at my market stand. Now if their loan is approved so they can give me at least half of the money in time to make that Fedco order... Another new thing we're doing this year is potluck farm-grown suppers every Saturday night at the farm, as a dish-to-pass with me providing the fresh salad. People who want to show off will get their share packet at the morning market stand, then come to the farm for a working party at 4 pm and sit-down supper at 6 pm. Or just the supper. I'm hoping that two hours of group projects will be non-intimidating enough to get some real help moving! The working parties are also Free University sessions -- hands-on learning by doing. Construction, fencing, weeding, planting, and harvesting will all be covered -- also mural painting and other fun stuff. On hot days we'll hit the creek and waterfall a couple of miles away; the hole there washed out last year and needs a lot of help but we can do it. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 17:59:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA29029 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA15196; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:59:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13703 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:45:30 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 2748 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 22:44:23 -0000 Received: from i48-04-40.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.232) (216.26.2.232) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 22:44:23 -0000 Message-ID: <3861466A.7316@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:45:17 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amy and Eric Johnson CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: educating and cooking References: <018401bf4bd7$69b3b4e0$36f9e5ce@pavilion> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1018 Copywrite law is pretty clear - you need to get permission to reprint otehr people's stuff. In our experience we have always been granted permission with a simple phone calll explaining why we want to reprint, that the recipe is peripheral to what we do, and thet we do not charge for the recipe. They usually ask that we include the text "Used with permission." and include the source (usually a book) so our Harvest Sharehoplders can get their own copy and support the author. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 18:05:07 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29104 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA15633; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:05:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA14883 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:55:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 5195 invoked from network); 22 Dec 1999 22:54:24 -0000 Received: from i48-04-40.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.2.232) (216.26.2.232) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 22 Dec 1999 22:54:24 -0000 Message-ID: <386148C4.2EBA@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 14:55:20 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: goodows@excite.com CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: CSR References: <8231310.945892125708.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1019 Lucy Goodman-Owsley wrote: > > Binking about the Community Supported restaurant idea a lot the past few > days. Talked to a friend of mine who is a cook and he thought this idea > sounded a lot like a country club (not politically, culturally or > economically- just how food would be dealt with) People join and their $$ > supports the restaurant. We decided $2000 a year per person sounded about > right (a family of four would pay $8,000) and than we got bogged down on how > many dinners per week would be served. We started with 4 dinners than > decided there would be a lot of people missing meals. next we discussed > whether or not this would be an eat-in facility or carry out only. Carry out > only would be LOTS cheaper but a communal dinning room would definately > foster community. Than it was mentiuoned that meals could be served to > non-members but I shot that down because I like Will's philosophy that CSA > should cater to members only and to do anything else is unfair to the > members. Plus opening up the meals to outsiders would really complicate the > cooks job and could cause the farm to underproduce. > So, who is going to open the first CSR in the US? > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season @@@@@@@@@@@@ I'm watching! This is a great idea. I'm learning as you guys discuss it. I particularly like the community aspect Lucy mentioned. But then, I put myself through college with a coffee house I started. Yeah, coffees, spiced ciders, hot chocolate and live (mostly folk) music. I've been strange a long time, and it only gets better. Keep up the discussion. We'll hit critical mass and one of us will do it! Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org CSA-L@prairienet.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 18:14:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA29208 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA16436; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:14:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16051 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:08:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.105]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA500 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:08:15 -0500 Message-ID: <001201bf4cd3$2dbf85c0$69c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: References: <6003189.945899623767.JavaMail.imail@prance.excite.com> Subject: Re: CSR Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:20:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1020 actually, it may be better to devise a restaurant csa using the restaurant method of calculating costs etc. there are many costs in running a restaurant that the average consumer is not aware of. we use the turnover rule.this is done for EACH SEATING:breakfast, lunch & dinnerthe turnovers of course must be based only on the csa if no others are welcome number of seats *(multiplied by) number of turnovers * number of days open per week * average cheque= so: 10 seats * 1.5(15 people)* 5 days* $10=$750 this is easy enough...For each meal time this must be done to see the feasibility. now, of course the actual AVERAGE CHEQUE is where many people make mistakes/don't make allowances.the food cost is usually based on the 33% rule for a mixed menu, & a 18-22% rule on a vegetarian plan. children's meals are also based onthe vegetarian rule=smaller portions. this meaning that yo see what it first costs to put together then you price the meals accordingly. ie: a chicken breast $2 PLUS the "added plate cost" this is the Side Dish or Dishes-OUR VEG etc.this is usually seen as a 15% cost. we have found in organics it is up to the average 20-22% cost. so the meal costs you $2 + 20%= $2.40(check the math-i stink at math!) well, then you include servers, electricity etc... that is where the 33% rule comes into play-over the years they(the cornell university experts in foodservice models etc) have found that this number more than covers your needs-except for floods etc. so,$2.40 \ 33%=$7.27 this would be your average selling price. there is room for the glass of??? in your $10. you must start with the raw costs at different times of the year for foods, the costs of staff in your area, the variables in utilities & the lack of or abundance of fresh meats/seasonal stuff. the average turnover of course can be much higher, BUT the seasons also greatly affect this. is there a winter ski area for tourists? summer are all the people gone?will you have theme nights & prebook the space? this is only meant to help-please don't think i am preaching-we lost our first restaurant 10 years ago because we had no idea that all these variables were in there somewhere-summer as it turned out meant all the townspeople left-ghost towns do not bills pay! the bare bones operation can actually still be considered high if you are that family of 4 BUT 2 of the eaters are small children-the parents would compare to the fast food prices-as you know. our second restaurant did incredibly well. all our food was local-farm grown-most by organic farmers and neighbours-yes we paid a premium, but we also had a good client base. our average lunch cost was in the 27% bracket & we had an average lunch cheque of $7.35. we served a lot of greens, salads, fresh eggs, brunch was a biggie-it was the fresh that kept us busy. fresh tastes great!! the only point you make i can't agree with is that most urban dwellers have more money than us farmers. i have never been able to save until now-making more as a farmer & processor of organics, than as a chef(this is bob's partner-hello). i work less hours, see sunlight, & can go outdoors in rain snow etc. -something i couldn't do in a commercial kitchen. i can also grow my own food!! Will is right (i hope that is his name)we must charge what we are worth, or it becomes worthless. i charge for my time, expertise & knowledge of all i know-& ask for what i don't. the one thing i have learned is that we must definitely find an alternative to all the mess we are forced to eat! . . ----- Original Message ----- From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:53 PM Subject: Re: CSR > > > > On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 16:23:37 -0500, Robert Ripley wrote: > > > $8 000 for a family of four?? > I got this figure from a charge of $10.00 per meal X 4 meals per week X 50 > weeks a year. If one were to charge less than $10 per meal than the whole > operation would lose money, I believe. As it is this would a bare bone > operation at this price. > Remember most people have more money (lots more) than most of us farmer > types and $10,000 yr for rent is pretty average for urban dwellers. > I also did not mention this; CSR would put 2 or more farms to work supplying > all the produce, meats and grains (remewmber this is still hypothetical) for > the year. Yes greenhouses would be required for most areas to do out of > season growing. > The members would of course have opportunities to visit and work on "their > farms" as in a regular CSA model. > In these days of ever dwindling cooks this seems to be an option for the > future of farm marketing. > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 19:01:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA29672 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 19:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA19225; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:01:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f224.hotmail.com [216.32.181.224]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA18840 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:55:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 47498 invoked by uid 0); 22 Dec 1999 23:55:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 15:55:24 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:55:24 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1021 Will Newman II wrote >Takes me three pages, takes you three paragraphs! > >Yes, yes, and yes!!!! > But that, dahlink, is just what a technical writer does! (And why we cost $40-$80K.) Farmers use at least as many skills, so they deserve at least what other acknowledged professionals can expect to receive. Never mind that fertilizer about "but you get to live that bucolic lifestyle". The next person who lays that on me gets rousted out of bed at 4 in the morning in a blizzard to come with me to see what's banging loose down at the barn and fix it. Bucolic _that_! Dori ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 21:25:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00702 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05099; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:24:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04264 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:18:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma2d-240.ix.netcom.com [209.110.255.240]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA14213; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:18:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <000201bf4d05$5292f080$f0ff6ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Robert Ripley" , References: <8231310.945892125708.JavaMail.imail@magic.excite.com> <003f01bf4cc2$d0efb500$83c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Re: CSR Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:12:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1022 Robert wrote the below message. Robert I think this is very intriguing. Not just as an income provider but I think it sounds like fun! Sort of dabble at being a restaurant but not really. So how much are your meals. And what have you served? We raise our own beef, a few eggs and of course the veggies and actually a few (not included in CSA) peaches and blueberries. They are not (in case you were wondering) included 'cause we lived here and some of the "spaces" are mine :). Beth > don't think a restaurant csa could work that way-how about whatwe do here on > occasion. we have a farm house-big i guess-we have dinners sold in advance > for the growing season. the members are first given the opportunity to > "purchase" their night out-next are the "outsiders". we used to own a > restaurant in the area, so maybe it gives us an edge, but we found that most > of the new faces never had heard of us---so, you never know. > well, the meals are strictly "home-grown" our veggies & preserves, sauces, > even the meat is all within a 5 mile radius-FROM A LOCAL FARM-we are lucky > enought o have a large organic community out here-i guess we all love to > grow & live in Zone 5 ontario BURRRR-minus 15 celsius here with the wind > chill tonight! > we can't live off the share prices as some can-we couldn't plant until june > 4 here this year-had a wonderful hurricane the first week!. we have just > spent over $35 000 on a year round greenhouse system that will eventually > run off wind power:cost is prohibitive right now. we serve what we preserve. > the chicken & beef etc., are first rate-our kitchen meets all health dept. > regulations, & we love the "country dinner" atmosphere of a big family-we > have no children.it has enriched our lives. this "restaurant csa" is working > so far. > > p.s. we have a fellow here who charges $150 per person for a 5 course farm > raised meal & he is booked 6 months in advance on his farm! > > zone 5 ontario > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 2:48 PM > Subject: CSR > > > > Binking about the Community Supported restaurant idea a lot the past few > > days. Talked to a friend of mine who is a cook and he thought this idea > > sounded a lot like a country club (not politically, culturally or > > economically- just how food would be dealt with) People join and their $$ > > supports the restaurant. We decided $2000 a year per person sounded about > > right (a family of four would pay $8,000) and than we got bogged down on > how > > many dinners per week would be served. We started with 4 dinners than > > decided there would be a lot of people missing meals. next we discussed > > whether or not this would be an eat-in facility or carry out only. Carry > out > > only would be LOTS cheaper but a communal dinning room would definately > > foster community. Than it was mentiuoned that meals could be served to > > non-members but I shot that down because I like Will's philosophy that CSA > > should cater to members only and to do anything else is unfair to the > > members. Plus opening up the meals to outsiders would really complicate > the > > cooks job and could cause the farm to underproduce. > > So, who is going to open the first CSR in the US? > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > > Boulder Belt CSA > > New Paris, OH > > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 21:30:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00744 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA06017; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:30:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.60]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04910 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:22:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-239-116.s116.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.116] helo=hj7fk) by smtp01.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 120xtX-0002Iu-00; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:22:24 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01bf4cec$acc13800$74ef3ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: "Dori Green" , References: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:23:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1023 Next thing I know you guys are gonna be leasing a new Lexus every three years, buying a house in a suburban subdivision, and getting your groceries at Wegmans. The demographic trend of the '00's: yuppie farmers! Cheers, jca ----- Original Message ----- From: Dori Green To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:55 PM Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) > Will Newman II > wrote > >Takes me three pages, takes you three paragraphs! > > > >Yes, yes, and yes!!!! > > > > > But that, dahlink, is just what a technical writer does! > (And why we cost $40-$80K.) > > Farmers use at least as many skills, so they deserve at least what other > acknowledged professionals can expect to receive. > > Never mind that fertilizer about "but you get to live that bucolic > lifestyle". The next person who lays that on me gets rousted out of bed at > 4 in the morning in a blizzard to come with me to see what's banging loose > down at the barn and fix it. Bucolic _that_! > > Dori > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 21:49:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00828 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA08177; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:48:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA07394 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 20:43:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.103]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA347 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:42:30 -0500 Message-ID: <002b01bf4cf1$1c701500$67c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: yuppie farmer Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:55:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1024 not us-we like to own nice things too-it is a farce to sayt hat a farmer can't own nice things-a lexus is nice:)-and can also make serious money-lord knows we try! From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 22 22:40:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA01164 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA13292; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:40:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12761 for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:34:27 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.a8aadd90 (4552) for ; Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:33:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 22:33:54 EST Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1025 << I first heard of the Slow Food Movement on National Public Radio!!!!! It was either on "All things Considered," or on "Marketplace." It does sound like these folks would be interested in CSA's. >> @@@@@@@@@@@@@@ I can't help but disagree with the above. The few times I have listened to NPR I have been so insulted by their bias. Of course, Their advertisers are ADM, the Hudson Foundation and subsidiaries of Monsanto. So why should I be disappointed? Because so many Americans believe NPR is objective. Personally, I think they should change their name to MCR (Multinational Corporate Radio). Ever since Congressional funding was withdrawn from the National Arts Foundation NPR has been courting their Corporate sponsors. I base this observation on the programs aired that try to paint a "Happy Face" on Monsanto as being the poor misunderstood Multinational Corporation (July 1999). The CSA concept is in direct conflict with the paid advertising interests of NPR. So don't look there or at any national media for support. Instead, try and get local coverage from your local news media. It has always been a free and mutually helpful arrangement to have our farm featured in the local newspaper. Word of mouth has done more for us than any paid advertisement. CSA budgets do not allow for national advertisements. So be real, be local, and forget white bread America. The subscribers you want for your farm will have a local consciousness. Let the others go. I find the concept of CSR as very intriguing. The problems I see with this concept is I can't discount my produce to make it economically feasible for restaurants to stay in business as well. This is probably due to the fact that I can only produce from 1.5 acres and I cannot sell any of my meat to them because it is not USDA inspected. Even though my animals have a more wholesome life of free range, organic feed and uncrowded living quarters, they are not allowed to compete with the e-coli and salmonella infested meats processed through the centralized USDA inspected plants. Our subscribers not only share the risks of harvest failures. Those who buy meats and eggs from us have to trust us to handle our processing as carefully as we handle our livestock. Very few consumers are sophisticated enough to take these risks. So we have to keep educating ourselves and our subscribers. I don't see much room for this type of education in CSR. I might be able to support the demand for half of a CSR for half a year. But this does not meet the demand. If I invested in a $30,000 Sol Viva green house I could probably supply the year round demand. But that would require more debt load than I am comfortable incurring. When I look at the cost benefit ratio, I see the costs outstripping the benefits because as a sustainable grower I cannot externalize any costs to the environment. Obviously, I am a small farmer with little problems. I hope to be shown how bigger thinking can release me from my paradigm. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 08:47:20 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10112 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA18131; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:47:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17789 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:41:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.143]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA613 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:40:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bf4d4d$0e823ca0$8fc3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: csa farm dinners Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:53:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1026 we advertise the dinners to our regulars & their friends-we must have a minimum of 6 people to make it viable. you selest in advance the foods-they prepay & you notify 2-3 days in advance of the event what the menu will be-they bring wine accordingly. the prices are based on what you will serve-use historical pricing & work on the higher of season prices-in case of bad crops etc..availability when the dinner happens. you can serve a little surprise if you like-if the price lets you do this & the harvest is great that week/day. the diners are advertised as "farm fresh feasts" we do not charge taxes-as a farm we can have a teachinghour beforehand, & it all becomes part of a farm tour-tax laws can be ???difficult to move around in-at the best of times in the north . well, i have to go now-it is -15celsius this morning & our greenhouse needs its top on!! i love the great white north. have a great day everyone. p.s. the hook family: all you really need is a desire to try this out, we started with a few friends who valued our food, & they were more than willing to pay for a small "lecture" & learn about food-eating it too of course. you also need a big table-we used an old office table at first. it was 4feet by 10 feet-it had been tossed in the city behind a dumpster-the office was moving-amazing what is free out there-we stripped it-guess what?? real maple under there!worth a fortune!& the people love to sit together & make new friends. zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 08:52:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA10141 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA18650; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:52:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17968 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:44:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.143]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA640; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:43:32 -0500 Message-ID: <001c01bf4d4d$75fe8be0$8fc3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: , References: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:56:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1027 don't discount-the organic farmers here don'y & neither do the csa's. what you need to do is find a chef/restaurant willing to pay what you are worth. look around they are out there! you have to stay in business first-discounts are for the walmarts of this world! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 10:33 PM Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: > << I first heard of the Slow Food Movement on National Public Radio!!!!! It > was > either on "All things Considered," or on "Marketplace." It does sound like > these folks would be interested in CSA's. >> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > > I can't help but disagree with the above. The few times I have listened > to NPR I have been so insulted by their bias. Of course, Their advertisers > are ADM, the Hudson Foundation and subsidiaries of Monsanto. So why should I > be disappointed? Because so many Americans believe NPR is objective. > Personally, I think they should change their name to MCR (Multinational > Corporate Radio). Ever since Congressional funding was withdrawn from the > National Arts Foundation NPR has been courting their Corporate sponsors. I > base this observation on the programs aired that try to paint a "Happy Face" > on Monsanto as being the poor misunderstood Multinational Corporation (July > 1999). > The CSA concept is in direct conflict with the paid advertising interests > of NPR. So don't look there or at any national media for support. Instead, > try and get local coverage from your local news media. It has always been a > free and mutually helpful arrangement to have our farm featured in the local > newspaper. Word of mouth has done more for us than any paid advertisement. > CSA budgets do not allow for national advertisements. So be real, be local, > and forget white bread America. The subscribers you want for your farm will > have a local consciousness. Let the others go. > I find the concept of CSR as very intriguing. The problems I see with > this concept is I can't discount my produce to make it economically feasible > for restaurants to stay in business as well. This is probably due to the > fact that I can only produce from 1.5 acres and I cannot sell any of my meat > to them because it is not USDA inspected. Even though my animals have a more > wholesome life of free range, organic feed and uncrowded living quarters, > they are not allowed to compete with the e-coli and salmonella infested meats > processed through the centralized USDA inspected plants. > Our subscribers not only share the risks of harvest failures. Those who > buy meats and eggs from us have to trust us to handle our processing as > carefully as we handle our livestock. Very few consumers are sophisticated > enough to take these risks. So we have to keep educating ourselves and our > subscribers. > I don't see much room for this type of education in CSR. I might be able > to support the demand for half of a CSR for half a year. But this does not > meet the demand. If I invested in a $30,000 Sol Viva green house I could > probably supply the year round demand. But that would require more debt load > than I am comfortable incurring. When I look at the cost benefit ratio, I > see the costs outstripping the benefits because as a sustainable grower I > cannot externalize any costs to the environment. > Obviously, I am a small farmer with little problems. I hope to be shown > how bigger thinking can release me from my paradigm. > > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 10:36:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10873 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA27281; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:36:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26565 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:30:42 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 10457 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 15:30:35 -0000 Received: from i48-13-27.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.5.27) (216.26.5.27) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 15:30:35 -0000 Message-ID: <38623201.74F2@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:30:27 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dori Green CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) References: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1028 Dori Green wrote: > > Will Newman II > wrote > >Takes me three pages, takes you three paragraphs! > > > >Yes, yes, and yes!!!! > > > > But that, dahlink, is just what a technical writer does! > (And why we cost $40-$80K.) > > Farmers use at least as many skills, so they deserve at least what other > acknowledged professionals can expect to receive. > > Never mind that fertilizer about "but you get to live that bucolic > lifestyle". The next person who lays that on me gets rousted out of bed at > 4 in the morning in a blizzard to come with me to see what's banging loose > down at the barn and fix it. Bucolic _that_! > > Dori > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com @@@@@@@ You don't have to convince me that farming is highly skilled. I think you may have to convince a lot of other people, though, including a lot of farmers. >From my standpoint: we all get 24 hours each day. How we use those hours is called living. We all deserve fair rewards for our efforts. The fact that some of us manage to do stuff we like during those 24 hours should not mean we don't deserve fair rewards - maybe it means more people should be shown how to do stuff they enjoy. Including rounding up the ducks during a hail storm! Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 10:42:29 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10967 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA28020; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:42:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA26746 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:31:59 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 10700 invoked from network); 23 Dec 1999 15:31:57 -0000 Received: from i48-13-27.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.5.27) (216.26.5.27) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 23 Dec 1999 15:31:57 -0000 Message-ID: <38623254.1DA6@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 07:31:50 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Austin CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) References: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> <001e01bf4cec$acc13800$74ef3ad0@hj7fk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1029 Jim Austin wrote: > > Next thing I know you guys are gonna be leasing a new Lexus every three > years, buying a house in a suburban subdivision, and getting your groceries > at Wegmans. The demographic trend of the '00's: yuppie farmers! > > Cheers, > > jca > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dori Green > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) > > > Will Newman II > > wrote > > >Takes me three pages, takes you three paragraphs! > > > > > >Yes, yes, and yes!!!! > > > > > > > > > But that, dahlink, is just what a technical writer does! > > (And why we cost $40-$80K.) > > > > Farmers use at least as many skills, so they deserve at least what other > > acknowledged professionals can expect to receive. > > > > Never mind that fertilizer about "but you get to live that bucolic > > lifestyle". The next person who lays that on me gets rousted out of bed > at > > 4 in the morning in a blizzard to come with me to see what's banging loose > > down at the barn and fix it. Bucolic _that_! > > > > Dori > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > @@@@@@@@@@ Why, short of a serious mental illness, would I want to do any of that? Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 11:07:58 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11181 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA00083; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:07:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f93.hotmail.com [216.32.181.93]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA29691 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:02:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 11021 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 16:01:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223160138.11020.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:01:38 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:01:38 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1030 Jim Austin wrote >Next thing I know you guys are gonna be leasing a new Lexus every three >years, buying a house in a suburban subdivision, and getting your groceries > >at Wegmans. The demographic trend of the '00's: yuppie farmers! > No Lexus here, but I _am_ thinking wistfully of replacing my 1984 Chevy Beater station wagon with a small Honda electric hybrid pickup next year, maybe getting myself a real good deal by offering to promote EHs at all of the farmers' markets and conferences I attend (and of course on my website and to all of my CSA members). Hey, it's worth a try! Goes along with the notion of selling everything including the chirp of the chick. I always try to remember that in any business transaction I am dealing with another human being, made of star stuff and just maybe almost as weird and wonderful as I am. So I might meet a car dealer who likes the idea. If I stay here another five years, my house will BE in a suburban subdivision. Of course, mine might be the only one off the grid, powered by fuel cells and windmills. Mine will be the only one surrounded by ten acres of gardens and ten acres of wildlife refuge. Or if I succeed in attracting like-minded intentional community members who buy up the land as it comes up for sale, maybe I'll be surrounded by such houses! Too kewl! Unless lots of people besides me support the few remaining locally-owned-operated grocery stores, within five years superstores will be my only sources for anything I don't grow or make myself. No, I have not yet started knitting toilet paper (though I do buy a lot of my household supplies through a natural products co-op). CSA does not provide connections between farmers and people who eat -- it provides connections between farmers and _other_ people who eat! If farmers would also like to enjoy the good things about a Yuppie lifestyle, I say Go For It And More Power To You! A long time ago the philosopher Lao Tzu suggested that people would do best to be aware of change and go with the flow instead of wasting time and energy resisting it. Works for me. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm "A Different Kind of Country Club" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 11:18:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11279 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01003; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:18:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f230.hotmail.com [216.32.181.230]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA00492 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:13:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 602 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 16:12:29 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223161229.601.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:12:28 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:12:28 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1031 So who among us is willing to put our money where our mouths are and share national ads giving the URL of the national listing (do we have one yet?) and maybe an 800 telephone number (like ATTRA's maybe) through which people can find a CSA near them? I'm poor but I'd commit $100 toward the effort. And I do bet that ATTRA would cooperate. Anybody else? Dori Green You Know Me ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 11:25:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11349 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01683; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:25:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f65.hotmail.com [216.32.181.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01125 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:19:58 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 362 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 16:19:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223161924.361.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:19:24 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:19:24 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1032 bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley)wrote >discounts are for the walmarts of this >world! I'd love to get a tape of the NPR program last night about the Salvadoran sweat shops that make the Nike and Liz Claiborne and Walmart clothing discounts possible, complete with the "Made in USA" labels. People have no clue. It was also interesting that the speaker was a "typical" breathless radical type whose credibility and credentials were questionable, the NPR double-message at its best. Folks, we are up against some big and powerful monsters. What we are doing with our little revolution is _important_, and we can't expect it to be easy. Whatever works. Do it! Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 11:31:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11419 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:31:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA02314; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:31:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f227.hotmail.com [216.32.181.227]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01546 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:24:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 95143 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 16:23:36 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223162336.95142.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 08:23:36 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: csa farm dinners Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:23:36 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1033 Here in New York the health department regulations are very strict. So I'm going through the restaurant/caterer for the farm dinner idea, plus potluck dinners through our not-for-profit operation, plus classes next door at the auction barn with the state-licensed kitchen area. Even in states where health department regs might not be as strict, we also need to remember that this is a litigious society and keep our risks within the boundaries that we're willing to bear. I would truly hate to see anybody lose their farm through a CSA activity. Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 11:49:52 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11667 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA03610; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:49:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03164 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:43:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from 208-58-239-58.s58.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.58] helo=hj7fk) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 121BKF-0003Kn-00; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:42:51 -0500 Message-ID: <006601bf4d64$e261ecc0$94ef3ad0@hj7fk> From: "Jim Austin" To: , "Dori Green" Cc: References: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> <38623201.74F2@teleport.com> Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) / advertising Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:43:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1034 Folks, I hope my little joke about yuppie farmers wasn't misunderstood. You guys deserve whatever stuff you get. I think this was Will, but attributions have gotten a little confused: > > >From my standpoint: we all get 24 hours each day. How we use those hours > is called living. We all deserve fair rewards for our efforts. On the other hand, after pursuing a reasonably well-monied professional life for a while, I've come to the conclusion that the last quoted sentence isn't necessarily connected to the first two. Put another way, living those 24 hours is it's own reward, that work should be allowed to be an end in itself and not necessarily linked to monetary compensation. Not saying that farmers don't deserve plenty of money and stuff. They (you) deserve it as much as anybody. That's not the point I'm making. It's just that beyond a certain point, more stuff stops making your life truly better, and starts getting in the way; sometimes it's the stuff itself that gets in the way, and sometimes its the things you have to do to acquire the stuff. One of the "virtues" of a Lexus is that it seals out the outside, keeps you nice and cozy in your little temperature-controlled, sound-insulated cocoon, so that the world can pass right by without being much noticed. Okay, I'll risk a little fertilizer here (might not smell great but it helps stuff grow, right?) I'm saying that getting up at four in the morning to see what's banging in the barn, or to round up the ducks on a cold night, is a reward in itself. It sucks sometimes, but in the end it feels good, and when you look back at it it makes life seem richer, while falling asleep watching bad TV or playing solitaire on the old P.C. is not something most of us will remember fondly. Though there IS something to be said for a good night's sleep, that trip out to the barn sharpens the old attention and makes that sleep seem all the more precious. Hath not old custom made this life more sweet Than that of painted pomp? Are not these woods More free from peril than the envious court? Here feel we but the penalty of Adam, The season's difference, as the icy fang And churlish chiding of the winter's wind, Which, when it bites and blows upon my body, Even till I shrink with cold, I smile and say 'This is no flattery: these are counsellors That feelingly persuade me what I am.' - William Shakespeare, from "As You Like It". jca ----- Original Message ----- From: Will Newman II To: Dori Green Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Will...(making a living) > > > > Never mind that fertilizer about "but you get to live that bucolic > > lifestyle". The next person who lays that on me gets rousted out of bed at > > 4 in the morning in a blizzard to come with me to see what's banging loose > > down at the barn and fix it. Bucolic _that_! > > > > Dori > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > @@@@@@@ > > >From my standpoint: we all get 24 hours each day. How we use those hours > is called living. We all deserve fair rewards for our efforts. > > The fact that some of us manage to do stuff we like during those 24 > hours should not mean we don't deserve fair rewards - maybe it means > more people should be shown how to do stuff they enjoy. > > Including rounding up the ducks during a hail storm! > > > > Will Newman II > CSA at Natural Harvest Farm > Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust > North Willamette Valley, Oregon > www.osalt.org > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 12:26:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12245 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07044; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:26:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (sendmail@mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06432 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:20:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from earth.execpc.com (root@earth.execpc.com [169.207.16.1]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.1) id LAA13319 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:20:34 -0600 Received: from default (obica-2-82.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.88.210]) by earth.execpc.com (8.9.0) id LAA24773 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:20:30 -0600 (CST) From: "Philip Crawford" To: Subject: RE: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:30:21 -0600 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19991223161229.601.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1035 hi, my name is philip crawford and i've been lurking for about a month on this list. i just wanted to respond to the ideas for creating a database for people to find a CSA near where they live. next spring (assuming my current projects finish by then) i will start a website where people can search for a CSA by zip code (unlike the current CSA listings which are just big lists). i also have databases of a few thousand farmers markets, certified organic growers, and food co-ops. it'll all be free. happy holidays, -phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org [mailto:owner-csa-l@prairienet.org]On Behalf Of Dori Green Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 10:12 AM To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Advertising : So who among us is willing to put our money where our mouths are and share national ads giving the URL of the national listing (do we have one yet?) and maybe an 800 telephone number (like ATTRA's maybe) through which people can find a CSA near them? I'm poor but I'd commit $100 toward the effort. And I do bet that ATTRA would cooperate. Anybody else? Dori Green You Know Me ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 12:34:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12363 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA07689; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:34:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from Alice.BMTS.Com (alice.bmts.com [216.183.128.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA07205 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:28:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from CatherineBould (ts2-ap02.bmts.com [216.183.140.12]) by Alice.BMTS.Com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA26162; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:27:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <009801bf4d6b$a47602a0$99a3fea9@CatherineBould> From: "Catherine & Matt" To: "Philip Crawford" , Subject: Re: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:32:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1036 Phil, Sounds great! Are you going to have Canadian listings, too? Catherine in Ontario -----Original Message----- From: Philip Crawford To: csa-l@prairienet.org Date: December 23, 1999 12:25 PM Subject: RE: Advertising : >hi, my name is philip crawford and i've been lurking for about a month on >this list. i just wanted to respond to the ideas for creating a database >for people to find a CSA near where they live. > >next spring (assuming my current projects finish by then) i will start a >website where people can search for a CSA by zip code (unlike the current >CSA listings which are just big lists). i also have databases of a few >thousand farmers markets, certified organic growers, and food co-ops. > >it'll all be free. > >happy holidays, > >-phil > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org [mailto:owner-csa-l@prairienet.org]On >Behalf Of Dori Green >Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 10:12 AM >To: csa-l@prairienet.org >Subject: Re: Advertising : > > >So who among us is willing to put our money where our mouths are and share >national ads giving the URL of the national listing (do we have one yet?) >and maybe an 800 telephone number (like ATTRA's maybe) through which people >can find a CSA near them? > >I'm poor but I'd commit $100 toward the effort. And I do bet that ATTRA >would cooperate. > >Anybody else? > >Dori Green >You Know Me >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 12:50:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12592 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA09095; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:50:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f106.hotmail.com [216.32.181.106]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA08580 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 11:44:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 38624 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 17:43:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223174348.38623.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:43:48 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:43:48 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1037 Before anybody re-invents the wheel -- I do believe there's already a searchable database of CSAs and maybe more than one of them! Could somebody else with more computer access time than I have right now maybe put together a list of them? Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 13:07:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12890 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10403; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:07:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09953 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:01:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.203] [198.69.131.198] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A53D27013C; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:09:01 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:01:27 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: list of csa's Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1038 http://www.sare.org/san/csa/index.htm seems to be a good one.. From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 13:49:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13378 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13952; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:49:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f50.hotmail.com [216.32.181.50]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA13439 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 12:43:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 15678 invoked by uid 0); 23 Dec 1999 18:43:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19991223184320.15677.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 10:43:20 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: list of csa's Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:43:20 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1039 Thanks! The SARE site might indeed be the one to promote! Any others out there? Dori ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 14:21:44 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13930 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA16300; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:21:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15760 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 13:15:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.101] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id A4669CB0134; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:13:42 -0500 Message-ID: <000901bf4d7a$5d13f0c0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 14:17:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF4D50.737DA600" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1040 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF4D50.737DA600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Next thing I know you guys are gonna be leasing a new Lexus every three >years, buying a house in a suburban subdivision, and getting your = groceries >at Wegmans. The demographic trend of the '00's: yuppie farmers! >Cheers, >jca I prefer my red Ford F150 (I could win the lottery, but never will I own = a luxury car), live on a mile long dirt road, will absolutely, never, = ever not- on-your-life live in a "subdivision", don't know what a = Wegman's is, and absolutely hate the term "yuppie" farmers-yuppies took = everything they touched and turned it into hobbies, leisure or fun. = Yuppies couldn't take what I do. Farming is not a hobby, certainly not = leisure, and sometimes downright worrisome, dangerous, painful, dull & = boring. But I wouldn't trade it for the world!! =20 Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF4D50.737DA600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    >Next thing I know you guys are gonna be leasing a new Lexus = every=20 three
    >years, buying a house in a suburban subdivision, and = getting your=20 groceries
    >at Wegmans. The demographic trend of the '00's: yuppie=20 farmers!

    >Cheers,

     >jca

    I prefer my red = Ford=20 F150 (I could win the lottery, but never will I own a luxury car), = live on=20 a mile long dirt road, will absolutely, never, ever not- on-your-life = live in a=20 "subdivision",  don't know what a Wegman's is, and = absolutely=20 hate the term "yuppie" farmers-yuppies took everything they touched and = turned=20 it into hobbies, leisure or fun.  Yuppies couldn't take what I = do. =20 Farming is not a hobby, certainly not leisure, and sometimes=20 downright worrisome, dangerous, painful, dull &=20 boring.  But I wouldn't trade it for the = world!!  
     
    Morningstar Gardens 
    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BF4D50.737DA600-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 18:53:49 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16211 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13308; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:53:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12614 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 17:47:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (bsg-ma1a-101.ix.netcom.com [209.110.248.101]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11082; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:47:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <00bb01bf4db9$60039800$1ff96ed1@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Dori Green" , References: <19991223174348.38623.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 18:48:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1041 Hi list, The Sare list is also linked although not smoothly in my opinion from the USDA page. Masschusetts Dept of Food and Ag. list the Ma. one although it is only those farms that sent in their info. I don't think a list that connects you via zip code is a bad idea. I suggest that the list have an address that allows it to be updated. The list on the U. Mass page is quite out of date. Beth > Before anybody re-invents the wheel -- I do believe there's already a > searchable database of CSAs and maybe more than one of them! Could somebody > else with more computer access time than I have right now maybe put together > a list of them? > > Dori Green > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 20:17:09 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16800 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA18598; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:16:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA17912 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:11:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA460; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: <002901bf4dad$6b185160$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: , "Dori Green" References: <19991223161229.601.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Advertising : Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:22:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1042 ditto!!!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Dori Green To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Advertising : > So who among us is willing to put our money where our mouths are and share > national ads giving the URL of the national listing (do we have one yet?) > and maybe an 800 telephone number (like ATTRA's maybe) through which people > can find a CSA near them? > > I'm poor but I'd commit $100 toward the effort. And I do bet that ATTRA > would cooperate. > > Anybody else? > > Dori Green > You Know Me > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 20:26:58 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16851 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19267; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:26:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18728 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:18:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA415 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:18:05 -0500 Message-ID: <004301bf4dae$7f70a440$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: yuppie farmers Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:30:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1043 i think maybe some out there think it is wrong or even a sin to be a farmer who wants "stuff" or a farmer who has "stuff" the good lord gave me strength to work 12-16 hours a day-on the few days i need to have a sauna-I have one. i cannot make any apologies for also needing a few things every now & then. have a safe & happy holiday everyone. robert & family From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 20:36:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16942 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19930; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:36:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18832 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:20:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA403 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:20:11 -0500 Message-ID: <005301bf4dae$caf70da0$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: csa & lists Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:32:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1044 hi all ok i am still here-:) for you canadians out there- there is a website that may help www.inforganics.com many listings of organic farmers & csa's-you have to shift to find stuff.... zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 20:46:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA17202 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA20602; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:46:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18960 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:23:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA321 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:22:33 -0500 Message-ID: <000801bf4daf$1f977b60$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: SOAR Searchable Online Archive of Recipes Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 20:35:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4D85.35F067C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1045 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4D85.35F067C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hey all- i couldn't remember the name so i will send it sorry about the space:) http://soar.berkeley.edu/recipes/ ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4D85.35F067C0 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="SOAR Searchable Online Archive of Recipes.url" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="SOAR Searchable Online Archive of Recipes.url" [DEFAULT] BASEURL=http://soar.berkeley.edu/recipes/ [InternetShortcut] URL=http://soar.berkeley.edu/recipes/ Modified=C0DC65FEAE4DBF01BA ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BF4D85.35F067C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 23 23:52:46 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18727 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03375; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:52:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03015 for ; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 22:46:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA18693; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10181; Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:46:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:46:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Robert Ripley cc: csa-l@prairienet.org, Dori Green Subject: Re: Advertising : In-Reply-To: <002901bf4dad$6b185160$87c3a4cf@accel.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1046 On Thu, 23 Dec 1999, Robert Ripley wrote: > ditto!!!!!! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dori Green > > So who among us is willing to put our money where our mouths are and share > > national ads giving the URL of the national listing (do we have one yet?) > > and maybe an 800 telephone number (like ATTRA's maybe) through which > > people can find a CSA near them? > > > > I'm poor but I'd commit $100 toward the effort. And I do bet that ATTRA > > would cooperate. > > > > Anybody else? > > > > Dori Green How about taking it a step beyond pointers to the directory and doing a website for an interactive online csa hub with a user-updateable directory (info from this could be used to update and append the existing SARE directory). I can put a widget online to make this happen. I'l donate $25, maybe more. I'll also volunteer to advertise this directory prominently in my own website. By 2000 I will have 2,500,000 hits there for 1999 and anticipate same for 2000. If I add info on this to my tag, Yahoo and other search engines will probably pick it up quickly and give it high priority when users search the web for csa's. Search Lycos (http://www.lycos.com) for "afsic" and you will see what I mean. I'd like to see this directory include conventional csa's, restaurant csa's, co-op csa's and various hybrids (to include the type not requiring money up front). I'd also be willing to do yet another CSA website (non-commercial) tailored to the needs of folks in this list, containing information most often needed plus links, faq's, archived valuable threads that occured in this list, etc. I can set up interactive resources enabling uploads/downloads of files to go online with accompanying webforums for info on uploads, requests, synthesis of ideas, etc. This and RSA are great ideas and I hope there is enough interest to enable them both to go forward. Lawrence just a gardener but thinking about doing a csa (w/o upfront $) and farmer's markets Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 09:22:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21310 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA27538; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:22:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27213 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 08:16:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.68] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-5.05) id AFD157B0206; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:14:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001401bf4e19$c4426de0$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Robert Ripley" , References: <004301bf4dae$7f70a440$87c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Re: yuppie farmers (long!) Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:18:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1047 > i think maybe some out there think it is wrong or even a sin to be a farmer > who wants "stuff" or a farmer who has "stuff" > the good lord gave me strength to work 12-16 hours a day-on the few days i > need to have a sauna-I have one. i cannot make any apologies for also > needing a few things every now & then. > have a safe & happy holiday everyone. > robert & family Anyone who works hard (or smarter ; } !), deserves the rewards of their labor, in whatever fashion, including farmers. (I'm envious of your sauna, Robert. I want a hot tub, Santa, you listening?!) My problem is with people who suddenly yearn for a career change-and decide to be overnight farmers. Case in point-3 miles down the road from me is a Christmas tree farm. Yeah right-here in coastal North Carolina. Christmas trees don't grow here!!!! This couple bought some acreage, built a 3200 sq ft house, paid someone to come in and prepare the ground, planted 5-6 year old trees of various assortments, obtained several high-end pieces of equipment (which they had the gaul to drive down the street during our local firemen's parade in front of all the real farmers), & put up a professionally designed sign advertising their "farm". Within 24 months they went from woods to a farm. They began selling these trees the following Christmas. Now they truck in pumpkins, gourds, straw, corn stalks etc for the fall tourist season to their "farm". They do lots of tours with school groups, and are building quite a name. (Personally, I don't associate amusement parks for farming, and it saddens me to see farmers resorting to this.) Just this past week, the area newspaper did an article on local Christmas tree farms, and this couple even admitted to trees not doing well here, and that they have to dye theirs!! Must be glue in that dye, too, to keep those dead needles on the tree. I don't mind someone changing careers, & becoming a farmer. I don't say that I'm a farmer, even though we have 45 acres, 22 of which are leased to conventional farmers (I wish I could find a large organic farmer-I can't handle that much by myself.) I call my market garden a garden, even though I out produce a produce farm 2 miles from me. And though I disagree with their methods, these farmers are neighbors & friends. I most certainly wouldn't go out and create a farm within a matter of months, then go chew the cud with them down at the post office, claiming I'm a farmer, too. Having a connection with the land & the people who enjoy it's results, growing real food or whatever makes life more pleasant (flowers, landscaping plants, etc.)-that's farming. (Oh, and shooting the feral dogs who destroyed our chickens, meat rabbits, & dug up the gardens, or going out at 3AM to help friends pull up 48,000 newly planted strawberry plants just as they are about to be flooded. National Guard & the Marines were a great help! They sure know how to get a job done!) Ah, I digress, sorry folks!! This is why I hope to have my CSA going by 2001--I want to educate local folks--farms can't be created overnight, nutrition doesn't come from a drive-thru window (can't believe I said that-we're getting one with our new restaurant-aarrgh), and to love the smell of dirt!! In the meantime, I'll be tucking away some earnings to play Santa who brings me a hot tub! Liz Pike pike@always-online.com Morningstar Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 10:58:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA22192 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA03703; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:58:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03162 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:52:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from pavilion (pts0212.gamewood.net [206.229.249.59]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA27881; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: <007d01bf4e26$bc017880$3bf9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" , References: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:36:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1048 Will- When I suggested donation to public radio in order to get a "plug", I was thinking mainly about the local public radio station that plays All Things... and Marketplace, not at the national level- I agree with you on the local aspect of advertizing. Although I do disagree about the bias you percieve... they are relatively objective which means we are going to hear some viewpoints we can disagree with, I use it as an oportunity to create my own arguments to that viewpoint. They've been reporting on Europe's banning of GM foods and actually did a report on the ADM price fixing case, which is more than the regular TV news. BTW a public radio station in FL runs a little disclaimer everytime the synicated NPR shows on their channel mentions ADM as a comtributor, that states something like "This station recieves no funds from or is supported in any way by ADM"! :-) Another great source can be local radio stations- I've been listening to our closest radio station lately, and its been doing these "Holiday Greetings from ___Small Business X___" all week, and some of these businesses are very small. We're in a small town and they even broadcast the local high school football games! Also been thinking that it might be a good idea to contact the nearest larger city 's (which is in our proposed market area) lifestyle/cooking editor or reporter of the newspaper. I think word of mouth is great, but if you consider that it takes X amount of people to hear about you before you get business from Y% of them, the more visible/louder you are, the better. Amy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 10:33 PM Subject: Re: Advertising Slow Food Movement: > << I first heard of the Slow Food Movement on National Public Radio!!!!! It > was > either on "All things Considered," or on "Marketplace." It does sound like > these folks would be interested in CSA's. >> > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > > I can't help but disagree with the above. The few times I have listened > to NPR I have been so insulted by their bias. Of course, Their advertisers > are ADM, the Hudson Foundation and subsidiaries of Monsanto. So why should I > be disappointed? Because so many Americans believe NPR is objective. > Personally, I think they should change their name to MCR (Multinational > Corporate Radio). Ever since Congressional funding was withdrawn from the > National Arts Foundation NPR has been courting their Corporate sponsors. I > base this observation on the programs aired that try to paint a "Happy Face" > on Monsanto as being the poor misunderstood Multinational Corporation (July > 1999). > The CSA concept is in direct conflict with the paid advertising interests > of NPR. So don't look there or at any national media for support. Instead, > try and get local coverage from your local news media. It has always been a > free and mutually helpful arrangement to have our farm featured in the local > newspaper. Word of mouth has done more for us than any paid advertisement. > CSA budgets do not allow for national advertisements. So be real, be local, > and forget white bread America. The subscribers you want for your farm will > have a local consciousness. Let the others go. > I find the concept of CSR as very intriguing. The problems I see with > this concept is I can't discount my produce to make it economically feasible > for restaurants to stay in business as well. This is probably due to the > fact that I can only produce from 1.5 acres and I cannot sell any of my meat > to them because it is not USDA inspected. Even though my animals have a more > wholesome life of free range, organic feed and uncrowded living quarters, > they are not allowed to compete with the e-coli and salmonella infested meats > processed through the centralized USDA inspected plants. > Our subscribers not only share the risks of harvest failures. Those who > buy meats and eggs from us have to trust us to handle our processing as > carefully as we handle our livestock. Very few consumers are sophisticated > enough to take these risks. So we have to keep educating ourselves and our > subscribers. > I don't see much room for this type of education in CSR. I might be able > to support the demand for half of a CSR for half a year. But this does not > meet the demand. If I invested in a $30,000 Sol Viva green house I could > probably supply the year round demand. But that would require more debt load > than I am comfortable incurring. When I look at the cost benefit ratio, I > see the costs outstripping the benefits because as a sustainable grower I > cannot externalize any costs to the environment. > Obviously, I am a small farmer with little problems. I hope to be shown > how bigger thinking can release me from my paradigm. > > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 11:43:39 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA22506 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA12021; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:43:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from yoda.fdt.net (root@yoda.fdt.net [209.212.128.32]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08967 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 10:37:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from gnv.fdt.net (port-29-ts2-gnv.da.fdt.net [209.212.132.60]) by yoda.fdt.net with ESMTP id LAA21604; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:37:41 -0500 Message-ID: <3863A2BA.AE554CE5@gnv.fdt.net> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:43:33 -0500 From: Alan Keitt Reply-To: askeitt@gnv.fdt.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: csa-l Subject: Reply to Jim and first hard freeze for Christmas Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1049 Jim Austin wrote: > > Alan, > > I enjoyed your message very much. If anything comes of my efforts, your > experience, as farmer and physician, might prove valuable. Would you be > interested in contributing, perhaps writing something from time to time? > > I'll definitely try to hook up with Sister MacGillis. > > Jim > Hi Jim, Nice to be called a farmer but I can't claim that honorable state for myself. Actually my father was a plant pathologist (at UW Madison) and my grandmother was a farmer - there was little choice after the civil war in rural South Carolina. So maybe I have some latent farmer genes coming out late in life. And since I don't have any grandchildren that I know of, ask me about those rutabagas that I picked this week for the bags. We have our first real hard freeze coming tonight but Rosie our farmer is real cool and most of the tender stuff is in. Sure let me hear what evolves in your future project. Always looking for ways to get in on something new. Incidentally one of my extension friends asked if I wasn't being a bit hard on extension agents. Yes - the stereotyping of polemical writing I guess. There are some good ones out there. Sorry for any slurs to them. Regards and happy season to all, Alan Keitt From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 12:21:11 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22737 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17375; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:21:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16918 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:15:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.202] [198.69.131.202] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id ABDE11500E8; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:22:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <007d01bf4e26$bc017880$3bf9e5ce@pavilion> References: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:15:01 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: npr Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1050 Yes, NPR has covered frankenfood and adm but by the use of slanting techniques (connotative language, use of biased authority, selective fact choice, placement, and omission-just to mention a few) it makes it seem that ADM was innocent and the people who opposed GM are fools. Do you know Chomsky's story about that goes something like: an NPR program is covering canabalism. The chosen experts are the people who support unregulated canabalism and the ones that want it regulated so we don't end up eating meat from diseased children. Finally, at the end of the coverage they say 'and we have the fruit cake fringe who are opposed to canabalism'(and representing our views they show some yahoo with her face painted red and blue screaming obscenities). But what do you expect from the marriage of state and corporate news? That's not saying straight corporate news is better. Part of corporate news' task is to defend corporate practices or, if it can't be defended, to keep silent. (and if you have been following the Pacifica network crisis, what once passed for progressive news is almost a thing of the past. Pacifica's board is now dominated by corporate types (executives for Atlantic Bell, Fanny May and stock brokers, etc). I highly recommend the progressive populist as a news source. A newspaper started by some midwest farmer types http://www.populist.com It could use our support. Although I do disagree about the bias you >percieve... they are relatively objective which means we are going to hear >some viewpoints we can disagree with, I use it as an oportunity to create my >own arguments to that viewpoint. They've been reporting on Europe's banning >of GM foods and actually did a report on the ADM price fixing case, which is >more than the regular TV news From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 12:40:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22874 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18547; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:40:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18122 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:34:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 23367 invoked from network); 24 Dec 1999 17:34:24 -0000 Received: from i48-12-32.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO john) (216.26.4.224) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 24 Dec 1999 17:34:24 -0000 Message-ID: <000d01bf4e34$efbefb80$8213fea9@john> From: "John Madsen" To: "CSA list" , "Leigh Hauter" References: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> Subject: Re: npr Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:33:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1051 Thankfully in Portland Oregon we have KBOO. They also have a web site kboo.org. The second oldest (in the USA) community supported radio station. During the Gulf slaughter (war) it became clear that PBS was a cute lapdog. While PBS was totaling the number of sorties per day, KBOO was giving teach-ins with Chomsky and other great people. KBOO does have real audio on there web page so if you are in need of more real news, this is one place to get it. Happy solstice John and Andrea Kings Valley Gardens ----- Original Message ----- From: Leigh Hauter To: CSA list Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 9:15 AM Subject: npr > Yes, NPR has covered frankenfood and adm but by the use of slanting > techniques (connotative language, use of biased authority, selective fact > choice, placement, and omission-just to mention a few) it makes it seem > that ADM was innocent and the people who opposed GM are fools. > > > Do you know Chomsky's story about that goes something like: an NPR program > is covering canabalism. The chosen experts are the people who support > unregulated canabalism and the ones that want it regulated so we don't end > up eating meat from diseased children. Finally, at the end of the coverage > they say 'and we have the fruit cake fringe who are opposed to > canabalism'(and representing our views they show some yahoo with her face > painted red and blue screaming obscenities). > > But what do you expect from the marriage of state and corporate news? > > > That's not saying straight corporate news is better. Part of corporate > news' task is to defend corporate practices or, if it can't be defended, to > keep silent. > > (and if you have been following the Pacifica network crisis, what once > passed for progressive news is almost a thing of the past. Pacifica's > board is now dominated by corporate types (executives for Atlantic Bell, > Fanny May and stock brokers, etc). > > I highly recommend the progressive populist as a news source. A newspaper > started by some midwest farmer types http://www.populist.com It could use > our support. > > > > Although I do disagree about the bias you > >percieve... they are relatively objective which means we are going to hear > >some viewpoints we can disagree with, I use it as an oportunity to create my > >own arguments to that viewpoint. They've been reporting on Europe's banning > >of GM foods and actually did a report on the ADM price fixing case, which is > >more than the regular TV news > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 12:50:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22925 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA23836; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:50:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21472 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 11:44:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from [198.69.131.202] [209.8.149.139] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id A2BB1E50126; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:51:55 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 12:43:46 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: wheat grass Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1052 Anyone growing wheat grass? If you are, would you get back to me, I'd like to discuss some issues. Leigh From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 24 15:11:13 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23895 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA00017; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:11:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27379 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 14:04:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.100]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA116 for ; Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:04:11 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01bf4e4b$d48eb820$64c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: Fw: yuppie farmers Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 15:16:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1053 ----- Original Message ----- From: bhfarm To: Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 8:30 PM Subject: yuppie farmers > i think maybe some out there think it is wrong or even a sin to be a farmer > who wants "stuff" or a farmer who has "stuff" > the good lord gave me strength to work 12-16 hours a day-on the few days i > need to have a sauna-I have one. i cannot make any apologies for also > needing a few things every now & then. > have a safe & happy holiday everyone. > robert & family > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 25 11:40:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29852 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14393; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:39:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14031 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:33:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 22123 invoked from network); 25 Dec 1999 16:32:04 -0000 Received: from i48-12-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.4.213) (216.26.4.213) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 1999 16:32:04 -0000 Message-ID: <3864E3B0.88D@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 08:33:06 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Austin CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Rewards for our efforts References: <19991222235524.47497.qmail@hotmail.com> <38623201.74F2@teleport.com> <006601bf4d64$e261ecc0$94ef3ad0@hj7fk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1054 Jim Austin wrote (in part): "I think this was Will... 'From my standpoint: we all get 24 hours each day. How we use those hours is called living. We all deserve fair rewards for our efforts.' "On the other hand, after pursuing a reasonably well-monied professional life for a while, I've come to the conclusion that the last quoted sentence isn't necessarily connected to the first two. Put another way, living those 24 hours is it's own reward, that work should be allowed to be an end in itself and not necessarily linked to monetary compensation. Not saying that farmers don't deserve plenty of money and stuff. They (you) deserve it as much as anybody. That's not the point I'm making. It's just that beyond a certain point, more stuff stops making your life truly better, and starts getting in the way; sometimes it's the stuff itself that gets in the way, and sometimes its the things you have to do to acquire the stuff...". @@@@@@@ The lines were from me. I originally wrote: "From my standpoint: we all get 24 hours each day. How we use those hours is called living. We all deserve fair rewards for our efforts. "The fact that some of us manage to do stuff we like during those 24 hours should not mean we don't deserve fair rewards - maybe it means more people should be shown how to do stuff they enjoy. "Including rounding up the ducks during a hail storm!" ------------------ What I was trying to say was that we all should be rewarded in ways that each of us feels is rewarding. For some of us it is money, for some status, for some it is spending our days doing something we enjoy and/or get a sense of satisfaction from. It seems that for most of us it is a combination of reasonable monetary income, respect for our skills knowledge and efforts, and days which don't drive us to mind-numbing evenings watching television or using other drugs. Here's an easy check on whether you're well-rewarded (no matter how much money you make): do you like to get up in the morning? Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 25 11:56:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29914 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA15269; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:56:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA14895 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:50:54 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 24083 invoked from network); 25 Dec 1999 16:49:50 -0000 Received: from i48-12-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.4.213) (216.26.4.213) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 1999 16:49:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3864E7DA.6417@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 08:50:54 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Ripley CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: yuppie farmers References: <004301bf4dae$7f70a440$87c3a4cf@accel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1055 Robert Ripley wrote: > > i think maybe some out there think it is wrong or even a sin to be a farmer > who wants "stuff" or a farmer who has "stuff" > the good lord gave me strength to work 12-16 hours a day-on the few days i > need to have a sauna-I have one. i cannot make any apologies for also > needing a few things every now & then. > have a safe & happy holiday everyone. > robert & family Here's some food for thought: "Though people have not progressed beyond the need to eat food and drink water and wear clothes and live in houses, most people have progressed beyond the domestic arts - the husbandry and wifery of the world - by which those needful things are produced and conserved. In fact, the comparative few who still practice that necessary husbandry and wifery often are inclined to apologize for doing so, having been carefully taught in our education system that those arts are degrading and unworthy of people's talents. Educated minds, in the modern era, are unlikely to know anything about food and drink, clothing and shelter. In merely taking these things for granted, the modern educated mind reveals itself also to be as superstitious a mind as ever has existed in the world. What could be more superstitious than the idea that money brings forth food?....Most people appear to assume that when they have paid their money for these things they have entirely met their obligations. Money does not bring forth food. Neither does the technology of the food system. Food comes from nature and from the work of people." -wendell berry from "Orion" magazine; summer 1999 Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 25 12:14:38 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29982 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16177; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:14:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA15838 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:08:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 26077 invoked from network); 25 Dec 1999 17:07:47 -0000 Received: from i48-12-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.4.213) (216.26.4.213) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 1999 17:07:47 -0000 Message-ID: <3864EC0F.7C54@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:08:53 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Madsen CC: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: npr References: <0.a8aadd90.2592f222@aol.com> <000d01bf4e34$efbefb80$8213fea9@john> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1056 John Madsen wrote: > > Thankfully in Portland Oregon we have KBOO. They also have a web site > kboo.org. The second oldest (in the USA) community supported radio station. > During the Gulf slaughter (war) it became clear that PBS was a cute lapdog. > While PBS was totaling the number of sorties per day, KBOO was giving > teach-ins with Chomsky and other great people. KBOO does have real audio on > there web page so if you are in need of more real news, this is one place to > get it. > > Happy solstice > > John and Andrea > Kings Valley Gardens Yes, we do! KBOO is a GREAT source for alternative voices (read: non-corporate). I stopped supporteing "Public Radio" and "Public Television" some years ago when they started including advertisements. I know they don't call them ads, but they look and sound like them, and represent over a third of the stations' incomes, so their ads to me. I don't send money to commercial stations. Search out local alternative voices in your area: newspapers, cable TV, etc. You might even want to try to get a local radio station up. We reknit community by rebuilding the neighborhood first. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Dec 25 12:24:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00052 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16721; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:24:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail3.teleport.com (mail3.teleport.com [192.108.254.31]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16479 for ; Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:18:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 27430 invoked from network); 25 Dec 1999 17:17:35 -0000 Received: from i48-12-21.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO 216.26.4.213) (216.26.4.213) by mail3.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Dec 1999 17:17:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3864EE5B.529@teleport.com> Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:18:42 -0700 From: Will Newman II Reply-To: osalt@teleport.com Organization: Oregon Sustainable Agriculture Land Trust X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: NPR (non-public radio) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1057 Sorry, folks, I forgot something the first time! John Madsen wrote: > > Thankfully in Portland Oregon we have KBOO. They also have a web site > kboo.org. The second oldest (in the USA) community supported radio station. > During the Gulf slaughter (war) it became clear that PBS was a cute lapdog. > While PBS was totaling the number of sorties per day, KBOO was giving > teach-ins with Chomsky and other great people. KBOO does have real audio on > there web page so if you are in need of more real news, this is one place to > get it. > > Happy solstice > > John and Andrea > Kings Valley Gardens and Leigh Hauter quoted someone: "Although I do disagree about the bias you percieve... they are relatively objective which means we are going to hear some viewpoints we can disagree with, I use it as an oportunity to create my own arguments to that viewpoint. They've been reporting on Europe's banning of GM foods and actually did a report on the ADM price fixing case, which is more than the regular TV news" @@@@@@@@@@@@ EVERY source has a bias. The point is not to find an unbiased source (I don't believe there are any), but to know the bias that the information ifs filtered through. Get info from a diverse (ther's that woord again!) array of sources, knowing each sources bias, and analyze for yourself. And, yes, we do have a great radio statioon in KBOO! Unfortunately, KBOOs are rare. KBOO is a GREAT source for alternative voices (read: non-corporate). I stopped supporting "Public Radio" and "Public Television" some years ago when they started including advertisements. I know they don't call them ads, but they look and sound like them, and represent over a third of the stations' incomes, so they are ads to me. I don't send money to commercial stations, even when they try to pretend they aren't. Search out local alternative voices in your area: newspapers, cable TV, etc. You might even want to try to get a local radio station up. We re-knit community by rebuilding the neighborhood first. Will Newman II CSA at Natural Harvest Farm Oregon Sustainable Agriclulture Land Trust North Willamette Valley, Oregon www.osalt.org From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Dec 26 18:53:59 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA02423 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 18:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA28980; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:53:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (f184.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.184]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA28574 for ; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 17:47:18 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 28739 invoked by uid 0); 26 Dec 1999 23:46:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19991226234645.28738.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 204.244.92.33 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:46:45 PST X-Originating-IP: [204.244.92.33] From: "Lovena Harvey" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Slow Food customers Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 15:46:45 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1058 We are just starting our CSA this coming growing season. The first folks to ask to have a working share in our CSA are members of the slow food movement. Great partners for us CSA folks. I think I 'll become a member of that slow food movement too!! Thanks for the info Lucy. Lovena >From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Reply-To: >To: CSA-L@prairienet.org >Subject: Slow Food Movement >Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 09:56:34 -0800 (PST) > >Has anyone heard of this? I was reading some posts at the Utne cafe site >and >found lots on the slow food movement. they seem like the perfect folks to >join a CSA-they see food as creating community and see food and eating as >something to be done slowly and with joy. Here is the URL of the SFM. >Enjoy. >http://www.slowfood.com/ > >Lucy Goodman-Owsley >Boulder Belt CSA >New Paris, OH >Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa >Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: >http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 >Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > >_______________________________________________________ >Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 27 13:07:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA10284 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21404; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:07:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f268.hotmail.com [216.32.180.226]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20937 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 12:01:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 90001 invoked by uid 0); 27 Dec 1999 18:00:43 -0000 Message-ID: <19991227180043.90000.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 10:00:43 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Advertising Clarification Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:00:43 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1059 Seems to be a lot of mix-up and confusion out there. What I'm proposing is very simple -- find a good _existing_ list of CSAs (make sure we're on them), pool our money and pay for three (3) block ads in _Gourmet_ Magazine giving the website and a phone number. So far we have $225 pledged. I don't think that's going to pay for three issues but it's a start. Yes, our investment will help all of the other farmers on that list, whether they pay for the ad or not. So we spread the word and ask people to kick in if they get members from our efforts. It's a "casting our bread upon the waters" deal. NPR sponsorship at the local level is an entirely different discussion, and probably works best individually or with a local network of farmers sharing the expense. Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 27 14:57:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11233 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA00034; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:57:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29581 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 13:51:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-130.premier1.net [207.149.54.130]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id LAA06391 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:45:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000c01bf50a4$afb9a0e0$823695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: apprentices Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 11:58:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5061.A0AB64A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1060 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5061.A0AB64A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List, Hope all had a restful Christmas if that's what you do. I'm seeking = some experienced advice and also just musings on this subject. I am = thinking of formalizing my apprentice program. I would like to know how = people approach the whole apprentice situation, from finding, to paying, = to room and board, to rules, limits etc. What is the criteria? = Expectations on both sides? Types of housing provided if any. My apprenticeship program has been different everytime, depending on my = mood for the season, the people involved and the farm. (We've moved = twice). We are now in a fairly stable land situation and can permantize = (I know that's not a word) a program, so I'd like to hear from all of = you on your successes, failures and just plain thoughts. I'm thinking of offering more of an educational experience than I have = in the past, I've always taught as we have gone along, but I'm thinking = we would all benefit if it were a bit more formalized Thanks Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5061.A0AB64A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi List,
    Hope all had a restful Christmas if = that's what you=20 do.  I'm seeking some experienced advice and also just musings on = this=20 subject. I am thinking of formalizing my apprentice program.  = I would=20 like to know how people approach the whole apprentice situation, from = finding,=20 to paying, to room and board, to rules, limits etc.  What is the = criteria?=20 Expectations on both sides?  Types of housing provided if = any.
    My apprenticeship program has been = different=20 everytime, depending on my mood for the season, the people involved and = the=20 farm. (We've moved twice).  We are now in a fairly stable land = situation=20 and can permantize (I know that's not a word) a program, so I'd like to = hear=20 from all of you on your successes, failures and just plain=20 thoughts.
    I'm thinking of offering more of an = educational=20 experience than I have in the past,  I've always taught as we have = gone=20 along, but I'm thinking we would all benefit if it were a bit more=20 formalized
    Thanks
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF5061.A0AB64A0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 27 17:24:00 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12536 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA09473; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:23:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA08985 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:18:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from [216.224.153.243] (216-224-143-44.stk.jps.net [216.224.143.44]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA22331 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 14:15:51 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: bibles Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1061 Hi all, Finally have time to respond to (add my 2 cents worth ;-,))some of the wonderful threads running through this list. Thanks to Larry for posting Bargyla's e-mail. Rather than look for out-of -print books through Amazon, B&N or boarder's, I go directly to the small used bookseller's site at www.abe.com (Advanced book Exchange)these are the same folks the biggies go to and then add their piece on top. I prefer to go directly to the source - like a farmers' market. I'm sitting here looking at my 5'tall 4' wide bookshelf of farming and gardening books trying to figure out which are my "bibles." I guess that sort of depends on whether I'm looking at planning, growing, pest control, marketing or... Planning and Planting Blake, Bill Community Supported Agriculture - Making the Connection Jeavons, John How to Grow More Vegetables *than you ever thought possible in less space than you can imagine Rosenzweig, Marcie Market Farm Forms - Spreadsheet Templates for Planning and Organizing Information on Diversified Market Farms Veerkamp, Garth Growing Across the Seasons: A Season and Harvest Extension Guide for the Small Acreage Farmer Growing and Post-Harvest Hunt and Bortz High Yield Gardening - How to get more from your garden space and more from your gardening season Lorenz & Maynard Knott's Handbook for Vegetable Growers Soils Minich, Jerry The Rodale Guide to Composting Parnes, Robert Fertile Soil - A Grower's Guide to Organic and Inorganic Fertilizers Pest control Flint, Mary Louise Pests of the Garden and Small Farm Yepsen The Encyclopedia of Natural Insect & Disease Control Most of these books "cross-pollinate" that is address more than one topic. I have many, many others on specific topics and crops, but these books are the first I would replace if they were lost. Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 27 17:30:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12593 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA10036; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:30:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09647 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 16:25:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.120]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA360; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:24:17 -0500 Message-ID: <009b01bf5184$1775eb00$78c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: , "Michaele Blakely" References: <000c01bf50a4$afb9a0e0$823695cf@pmjb> Subject: Re: apprentices Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:37:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF515A.2DCED760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1062 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF515A.2DCED760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi all there is a website i LOVE by the Angelic Organics group angelicorganics.com i think. it has much info on apprentices etc. BUT there are farms here that CHARGE quite a bit for formal = apprenticeships in farming, animal husbandry etc. well hope it helps- angelic is my fave! =20 zone 5 ontario ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michaele Blakely=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 2:58 PM Subject: apprentices Hi List, Hope all had a restful Christmas if that's what you do. I'm seeking = some experienced advice and also just musings on this subject. I am = thinking of formalizing my apprentice program. I would like to know how = people approach the whole apprentice situation, from finding, to paying, = to room and board, to rules, limits etc. What is the criteria? = Expectations on both sides? Types of housing provided if any. My apprenticeship program has been different everytime, depending on = my mood for the season, the people involved and the farm. (We've moved = twice). We are now in a fairly stable land situation and can permantize = (I know that's not a word) a program, so I'd like to hear from all of = you on your successes, failures and just plain thoughts. I'm thinking of offering more of an educational experience than I have = in the past, I've always taught as we have gone along, but I'm thinking = we would all benefit if it were a bit more formalized Thanks Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF515A.2DCED760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    hi all
    there is a website i LOVE by the Angelic Organics=20 group
    angelicorganics.com   i think. it has much = info on=20 apprentices etc.
    BUT there are farms here that CHARGE  quite a = bit for=20 formal apprenticeships in farming, animal husbandry etc.
    well hope it helps- angelic is my fave!  =
    zone 5 ontario
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Michaele = Blakely=20
    Sent: Monday, December 27, 1999 = 2:58=20 PM
    Subject: apprentices

    Hi List,
    Hope all had a restful Christmas if = that's what=20 you do.  I'm seeking some experienced advice and also just = musings on=20 this subject. I am thinking of formalizing my apprentice = program.  I=20 would like to know how people approach the whole apprentice situation, = from=20 finding, to paying, to room and board, to rules, limits etc.  = What is the=20 criteria? Expectations on both sides?  Types of housing provided = if=20 any.
    My apprenticeship program has been = different=20 everytime, depending on my mood for the season, the people involved = and the=20 farm. (We've moved twice).  We are now in a fairly stable land = situation=20 and can permantize (I know that's not a word) a program, so I'd like = to hear=20 from all of you on your successes, failures and just plain=20 thoughts.
    I'm thinking of offering more of an = educational=20 experience than I have in the past,  I've always taught as we = have gone=20 along, but I'm thinking we would all benefit if it were a bit more=20 formalized
    Thanks
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation=20 WA
    ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01BF515A.2DCED760-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Mon Dec 27 20:37:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14225 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA23638; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 19:37:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.85]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23247 for ; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 19:31:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from [63.14.211.124] (1Cust124.tnt1.eugene.or.da.uu.net [63.14.211.124]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12069; Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:31:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199912280131.RAA12069@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 17:29:43 -0800 Subject: Re: apprentices From: "gwynn and bert" To: Michaele Blakely , CSA-L@prairienet.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="MS_Mac_OE_3029160583_120203_MIME_Part" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1063 > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3029160583_120203_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit HI... since working on several CSA farms part-time and seeing how apprentices/internships are handled i think i might have a couple of ideas on the subject. primarily, workers who are being paid and workers who are in an "educational" role need to be treated differently. the experience i've had is (especially during the busy times) everyone works equally hard but some are paid and some are not. the education aspect gets shuffled off to a couple minutes at the end of the day or a quick discussion while washing the carrots. Michaele Blakely wrote: > I've always taught as we have gone along, but I'm thinking we would all > benefit if it were a bit more formalized i'd recommend creating a more structured situation. set aside certain times of the day/week for "teaching." we initiated a weekly potluck and discussion group at one farm which was helpful. (but didn't solve the problem of unpaid interns being "taught" at the same level as paid folks. another problem was creating a system in which some workers were paid with $$ and interns paid with produce. good in theory, but then the paid folks also end up taking home lots of veggies, so interns feel slighted. so, i think that interns and apprentices (same thing?) are a great and needed part of a farm if this CSA movement is to continue growing. i think that it needs to be well thought out, however, to create a situation where everyone feels well rewarded for their investment. ___________________________________________________________________ J. Robert Webster Eugene, Oregon ___________________________________________________________________ ---------- From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: apprentices Date: Mon, Dec 27, 1999, 11:58 AM Hi List, Hope all had a restful Christmas if that's what you do. I'm seeking some experienced advice and also just musings on this subject. I am thinking of formalizing my apprentice program. I would like to know how people approach the whole apprentice situation, from finding, to paying, to room and board, to rules, limits etc. What is the criteria? Expectations on both sides? Types of housing provided if any. My apprenticeship program has been different everytime, depending on my mood for the season, the people involved and the farm. (We've moved twice). We are now in a fairly stable land situation and can permantize (I know that's not a word) a program, so I'd like to hear from all of you on your successes, failures and just plain thoughts. I'm thinking of offering more of an educational experience than I have in the past, I've always taught as we have gone along, but I'm thinking we would all benefit if it were a bit more formalized Thanks Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA --MS_Mac_OE_3029160583_120203_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: apprentices HI...

    since working on several CSA farms part-time and seeing how apprentices/int= ernships are handled i think i might have a couple of ideas on the subject. =  primarily, workers who are being paid and workers who are in an "= educational" role need to be treated differently.  the experience = i've had is (especially during the busy times) everyone works equally hard b= ut some are paid and some are not.  the education aspect gets shuffled = off to a couple minutes at the end of the day or a quick discussion while wa= shing the carrots.

    Michaele Blakely wrote:
    >  I've always taught as we have gone along, = but I'm thinking we would all
    > benefit if it were a bit more formalized

     i'd recommend creating a more structured situation.  set = aside certain times of the day/week for "teaching."   we= initiated a weekly potluck and discussion group at one farm which was helpf= ul.  (but didn't solve the problem of unpaid interns being "taught= " at the same level as paid folks.

    another problem was creating a system in which some workers were paid with = $$ and  interns paid with produce.  good in theory, but then the p= aid folks also end up taking home lots of veggies, so interns feel slighted.=  so, i think that interns and apprentices (same thing?) are a great an= d needed part of a farm if this CSA movement is to continue growing.  i= think that it needs to be well thought out, however, to create a situation = where everyone feels well rewarded for their investment.


    ___________________________________________________________________
    J. Robert Webster
    Eugene, Oregon
    ___________________________________________________________________

    ----------
    From: "Michaele Blakely" <mjb@premier1.net>
    To: <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    Subject: apprentices
    Date: Mon, Dec 27, 1999, 11:58 AM


    Hi List,
    Hope all had a restful Christmas if that's what you do.  I'm seeking s= ome experienced advice and also just musings on this subject. I am thinking = of formalizing my apprentice program.  I would like to know how people = approach the whole apprentice situation, from finding, to paying, to room an= d board, to rules, limits etc.  What is the criteria? Expectations on b= oth sides?  Types of housing provided if any.
    My apprenticeship program has been different everytime, depending on my moo= d for the season, the people involved and the farm. (We've moved twice). &nb= sp;We are now in a fairly stable land situation and can permantize (I know t= hat's not a word) a program, so I'd like to hear from all of you on your suc= cesses, failures and just plain thoughts.
    I'm thinking of offering more of an educational experience than I have in t= he past,  I've always taught as we have gone along, but I'm thinking we= would all benefit if it were a bit more formalized
    Thanks
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA

    --MS_Mac_OE_3029160583_120203_MIME_Part-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 28 12:22:43 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22109 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA19196; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:22:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f28.hotmail.com [216.32.181.28]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA18606 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 11:16:40 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 60877 invoked by uid 0); 28 Dec 1999 17:16:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19991228171606.60872.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 09:16:06 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: apprentices (long) Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:16:06 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1064 Apprentices at Ash Grove trade labor for formal instruction and my time spent in setting up a detailed formal curriculum with them before any teaching begins. And oh yes, they have to be members ($25 per year). The curriculum specifies the expectations on each side, and can be revised at any time as long as both parties sign and date the revisions (ISO 9000 experience -- works for engineers, works for me). I can get $20-$50 as a trainer in the "outside world", and I can get the goat barn cleaned for $5.15. The exchange rate is therefore 4 hours of apprentice labor for each formal hour of one-on-one instruction by me, and it seems to me that the apprentice is getting the best side of this deal. If somebody doesn't like the arrangement they can go pay $400 a week at one of the new-age places. The schedule of formal instruction is set up in the curriculum. Of course I work alongside the apprentices a lot; there is no extra charge for whatever benefit they gain from this. Apprentices are invited to assist with our formal classes and workshops (especially for preparation and cleanup), and they may attend all workshops at no cost. I'm still working with the local community college to be able to offer CEU credits for apprenticeships at Ash Grove. We're making some progress. It helps that the college is only five miles away. I'm also starting discussions with Mansfield University (20 miles away), offering CSA apprenticeships to some of their students working on the masters program in community organizing & development. I get a lot of applicants expecting to receive free room and board plus stipend. Doesn't work that way here -- we have no paid employees and no bosses here, just co-ops and profit (if any) sharing and not-for-profit programs. Some of my best apprentices have been local folks who came in for one afternoon a month. Whatever works. Apprentices may pitch a summertime tent for free and share the costs of a rented chemical toilet for the "apprentice village", with storm refuge and showering facilities available in the house. We also have swimming privileges in the neighbor's pond (and 3D archery privileges at their range). Meals cost $150 per month for groceries and everybody takes their fair turn at cooking and shopping and putting away. We all eat together about as often as any family does (hah!), and we hold a "household meeting" (mandatory) once a week. Apprentices may rent a room in the house for $250 per month, year round, through our affordable housing cooperative. Rooms may be shared by two apprentices, $150 per month each. Rent includes all utilities, satellite TV, and use of the Pentium II computer when I'm not using it. After completion of a season's apprenticeship, Ash Grove apprentices can join any of our profit-sharing programs and also discuss becoming a farm partner, in which they can earn actual land ownership through sweat equity as a member of our intentional community. I do NOT bother to reply any more to the many e-mails I receive from people who have nothing to contribute toward rent or groceries but are "really hard workers". They should work really hard and call or write when they're ready to carry their own weight. Teaching people who don't know -- or worse yet, think they do know but really don't -- is frustrating hard work and not for the timid or impatient. I now have a three-page apprenticeship application form and I don't accept every applicant. Areas of instruction offered at Ash Grove Community Farm: - Goatkeeping (dairy and draft and pack) - Poultry Keeping (chickens, ducks, geese) - Organic gardening/farming (six acres of gardens & growing) - Grantsmanship - CSA Management - Rural Business & Farm Networking - Website Development & Management - Operating an NFP Educational Program - Agroforestry - Permanent No-Till Raised Beds - Draft Horses (with neighbors) - Cooperative Management - Worker-Owned Business Development - State-licensed Nursery Management - E-commerce - Growing & using medicinal & culinary herbs - Intentional Community - Voluntary Simplicity - Technical Writing - Putting it all together without debt You betcha, the whole detailed apprenticeship program thingie is in the membership handbook. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm Corning, NY Will be back on-line from home by tomorrow! Yippee! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 28 16:36:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA25815 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA10367; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:36:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09778 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:29:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from [216.224.153.243] (216-224-143-69.stk.jps.net [216.224.143.69]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA16543 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:29:39 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: fullcircle@mail.jps.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:27:42 -0800 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org From: Marcie Rosenzweig Subject: Re: bibles - website correction Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1065 Opps Advanced Book Exchange's website is really www.abebooks.com Original post >Hi all, > >Finally have time to respond to (add my 2 cents worth ;-,))some of the >wonderful threads running through this list. > >Thanks to Larry for posting Bargyla's e-mail. Rather than look for out-of >-print books through Amazon, B&N or boarder's, I go directly to the small >used bookseller's site at www.abe.com (Advanced book Exchange)these are the >same folks the biggies go to and then add their piece on top. I prefer to >go directly to the source - like a farmers' market. > >I'm sitting here looking at my 5'tall 4' wide bookshelf of farming and >gardening books trying to figure out which are my "bibles." I guess that >sort of depends on whether I'm looking at planning, growing, pest control, >marketing or... > >Planning and Planting > >Blake, Bill Community Supported Agriculture - Making the Connection > >Jeavons, John How to Grow More Vegetables *than you ever thought possible >in less space than you can imagine > >Rosenzweig, Marcie Market Farm Forms - Spreadsheet Templates for Planning >and Organizing Information on Diversified Market Farms > >Veerkamp, Garth Growing Across the Seasons: A Season and Harvest >Extension Guide for the Small Acreage Farmer > > >Growing and Post-Harvest > >Hunt and Bortz High Yield Gardening - How to get more from your garden >space and more from your gardening season > >Lorenz & Maynard Knott's Handbook for Vegetable Growers > > >Soils > >Minich, Jerry The Rodale Guide to Composting > >Parnes, Robert Fertile Soil - A Grower's Guide to Organic and Inorganic >Fertilizers > > >Pest control > >Flint, Mary Louise Pests of the Garden and Small Farm > >Yepsen The Encyclopedia of Natural Insect & Disease Control > >Most of these books "cross-pollinate" that is address more than one topic. >I have many, many others on specific topics and crops, but these books are >the first I would replace if they were lost. > > > > >Marcie A. Rosenzweig >Full Circle Organic Farm Marcie A. Rosenzweig Full Circle Organic Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Tue Dec 28 18:41:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26902 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA19661; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:41:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19127 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 17:35:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from [209.8.149.175] [209.8.149.155] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AAF15AD00C8; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:42:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:34:28 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1066 Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than solving the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and their allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms from which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, and too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent contamination are followed. USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) on irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not have to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. Consumers of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning is not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the word "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such as "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this "other appropriate device" could be. 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the finished product's label. 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The requirements that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and second, that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored green have been eliminated. USDA Weakens Food Additive Law USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with FDA their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule is the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for the food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections for consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives from two to five years. USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods is safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon the FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the FDA based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific evidence. A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, they based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA task force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed Obviously, since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of the safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization of food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. Take Action Now! Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food irradiation! If you need information about your elected representative, call Public Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: www.citizen/cmep) Wenonah Hauter Director Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project 202-454-5150 Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep From owner-sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu Tue Dec 28 18:45:27 1999 Received: from shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (shasta.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.61]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26957 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA07421 for sanet-mg-outgoing; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:35:27 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: shasta.ces.ncsu.edu: majord set sender to owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu using -f Received: from pressroom.com (mail.pressroom.com [198.69.131.1]) by shasta.ces.ncsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07327 for ; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.8.149.175] [209.8.149.155] by pressroom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.00) id AAF15AD00C8; Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:42:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:34:28 -0500 To: CSA list From: Leigh Hauter Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Sender: owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1067 Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than solving the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and their allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms from which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, and too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent contamination are followed. USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) on irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not have to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. Consumers of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning is not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the word "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such as "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this "other appropriate device" could be. 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the finished product's label. 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The requirements that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and second, that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored green have been eliminated. USDA Weakens Food Additive Law USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with FDA their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule is the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for the food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections for consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives from two to five years. USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods is safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon the FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the FDA based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific evidence. A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, they based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA task force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed Obviously, since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of the safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization of food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. Take Action Now! Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food irradiation! If you need information about your elected representative, call Public Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: www.citizen/cmep) Wenonah Hauter Director Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project 202-454-5150 Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg". If you receive the digest format, use the command "unsubscribe sanet-mg-digest". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest". All messages to sanet-mg are archived at: http://www.sare.org/san/htdocs/hypermail From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 10:48:35 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00783 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA11565; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:46:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11009 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:40:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.50] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AAE34FA90154; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:38:11 -0500 Message-ID: <013001bf5213$4c541ba0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Leigh Hauter" , References: Subject: Re: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:42:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1068 This makes me sick, Leigh. Unfortunately, thanks for info. Liz Pike ----- Original Message ----- From: Leigh Hauter To: CSA list Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:34 PM Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, > pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than solving > the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, > according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) > announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, > including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in > which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used > as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. > > Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, > corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and their > allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to > prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems > associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms from > which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size > slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to > speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, and > too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent > contamination are followed. > > USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat > > While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) on > irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in > facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not have > to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring > they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. Consumers > of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger > patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. > > Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is > unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food > regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: > > 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the > international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains > simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning is > not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the word > "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such as > "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be > placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is > used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the > declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. > > 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to > have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" > displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or > "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this > "other appropriate device" could be. > > 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the > "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. > > 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, > must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the finished > product's label. > > 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The requirements > that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than > one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and second, > that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored green > have been eliminated. > > USDA Weakens Food Additive Law > > USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives > (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and Drug > Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. > USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with FDA > their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule is > the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for the > food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections for > consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives > from two to five years. > > USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety > > The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No > studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods is > safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon the > FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the FDA > based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific evidence. > > A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific > literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, they > based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA task > force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high > enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed Obviously, > since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. > Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of the > safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization of > food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals > (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. > > Take Action Now! > > Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food > irradiation! > > If you need information about your elected representative, call Public > Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your > Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services > Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the > requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. > > The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 > Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: > www.citizen/cmep) > > > > > > > > > > Wenonah Hauter > Director > Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project > 202-454-5150 > Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 13:01:41 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02517 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 13:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21844; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:00:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f285.hotmail.com [216.32.180.139]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA21156 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 11:53:25 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 90762 invoked by uid 0); 29 Dec 1999 17:52:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19991229175251.90761.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 149.42.1.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 09:52:51 PST X-Originating-IP: [149.42.1.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 12:52:51 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1069 Everybody should forward this to their local newspapers and radio and TV stations with an accompanying press release about their CSA farm and how it can provide connections with small, local, clean sources of meat and produce. I know what I'll be doing this weekend (if we still have power...) Dori Green >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: "Leigh Hauter" , >Subject: Re: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! >Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 10:42:21 -0500 > >This makes me sick, Leigh. Unfortunately, thanks for info. >Liz Pike > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Leigh Hauter >To: CSA list >Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 1999 6:34 PM >Subject: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > > > Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > > > The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, > > pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than >solving > > the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling >conditions, > > according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) > > announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, > > including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package >in > > which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be >used > > as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. > > > > Unfortunately, rather than cleaning up the filthy conditions at large, > > corporate farms and industrial slaughterhouses, the meat industry and >their > > allies in the U.S. government are promoting food irradiation as a way to > > prevent food-borne illness. Food irradiation will not solve the problems > > associated with the unsanitary conditions at huge factory sized farms >from > > which feces-covered animals are transported to industrialized-size > > slaughtering facilities. Workers at these facilities are required to > > speed-up work, for instance, "processing" as many as 300 cows an hour, >and > > too few USDA inspectors are on hand to insure that procedures to prevent > > contamination are followed. > > > > USDA's Retail Labeling Requirements for Meat > > > > While the new USDA rule does include a labeling requirement (a radura) >on > > irradiated meat and poultry products sold at retail, meat served in > > facilities like restaurants, hospitals or school cafeterias does not >have > > to be labeled. This means that consumer's will have no way of insuring > > they the meat they eat in these establishments is not irradiated. >Consumers > > of fast food burgers should be especially concerned, since hamburger > > patties are a prime candidate for irradiation. > > > > Moreover, if the FDA does not continue to require labeling, the USDA is > > unlikely to require labeling. USDA is "harmonizing" all of their food > > regulations with the FDA. Requirements are as follows: > > > > 1) Packaged meat products irradiated in their entirety must bear the > > international radura symbol. Unfortunately, the symbol, which contains > > simple petals in a broken circle is benevolent looking and its meaning >is > > not widely recognized. Additionally, products must either include the >word > > "irradiated" as part of the product name or must bear a statement such >as > > "Treated with radiation" or "Treated by irradiation." The radura must be > > placed in conjunction with the required statement, if the statement is > > used. The statement is not required to be more prominent than the > > declaration of ingredients and it can be anywhere on the package. > > > > 2) Unpackaged meat products irradiated in their entirety are required to > > have the radura symbol and a statement "prominently and conspicuously" > > displayed to purchasers either through labeling on a bulk container or > > "some other appropriate device." The agency does not define what this > > "other appropriate device" could be. > > > > 3) USDA is also allowing labeling statements and claims regarding the > > "beneficial effects" and the purpose of irradiation. > > > > 4) Multi-ingredient products, which include an irradiated meat product, > > must only reflect its inclusion in the ingredient statement on the >finished > > product's label. > > > > 5) USDA eliminated two labeling requirements for poultry. The >requirements > > that "letters used for the qualifying statement shall be no less than > > one-third the size of the largest letter in the product name" and >second, > > that the radura logo on irradiated poultry product labels be colored >green > > have been eliminated. > > > > USDA Weakens Food Additive Law > > > > USDA also ended their requirement for the use of food additives > > (irradiation is considered an additive). In the future, the Food and >Drug > > Administration (FDA) will be the sole agency regulating food additives. > > USDA says in its materials about the rule that they will "discuss" with >FDA > > their concerns about additives used in meat and poultry. The new rule >is > > the latest in a series of so-called "reforms," which make it easier for >the > > food industry to get regulatory approval, but decrease the protections >for > > consumers. The new rule will shorten the approval process for additives > > from two to five years. > > > > USDA Approves Meat Irradiation Without Proof of its Safety > > > > The legalization of food irradiation is based on a house of cards. No > > studies have been done to show that a long-term diet of irradiated foods >is > > safe. In legalizing the irradiation of raw meat, the USDA relied upon >the > > FDA's determination that food irradiation is safe. Unfortunately, the >FDA > > based their legalization of food irradiation on shaky scientific >evidence. > > > > A special task force of the FDA reviewed a large body of scientific > > literature on the toxicological testing of irradiated food, however, >they > > based their approval of food irradiation on only five studies. The FDA >task > > force reviewed over 2000 studies, over four hundred of which met a high > > enough standard that they could potentially have been reviewed >Obviously, > > since the FDA used such a small sample, the potential for bias is great. > > Furthermore, because they were unable to provide definitive evidence of >the > > safety of irradiated food, the FDA eventually based their legalization >of > > food irradiation on a theoretical model about how many new chemicals > > (potential carcinogens) are formed in the food products by irradiation. > > > > Take Action Now! > > > > Write or call your member of Congress and voice your concerns about food > > irradiation! > > > > If you need information about your elected representative, call Public > > Citizen at 202-546-4996 or email us at the web site below. Ask your > > Representatives and Senators to write to Health and Human Services > > Secretary, Donna Shalala, about the FDA potentially removing the > > requirement that irradiated foods be labeled. > > > > The Honorable Donna Shalala, US Dept. of Health and Human Services, 200 > > Independence Ave., SW. Washington, DC 20201 (For more info: > > www.citizen/cmep) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wenonah Hauter > > Director > > Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project > > 202-454-5150 > > Visit our Web Site: www.citizen.org/cmep > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 16:23:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA05152 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA08367; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:23:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (fb02.eng00.mindspring.net [207.69.229.20]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07952 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 15:17:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive36c.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.12.204]) by fb02.eng00.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA08311; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:17:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004001bf525b$841da4a0$cc0cf7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "CSA list" , "Leigh Hauter" References: Subject: Re: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 16:19:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1070 I think this might just open up a little market for us little meat producers. My husband has wanted to for years market our Highland beef just havn't gotten to it. Busy with CSA, but should look into beef as well. But big picture wise I think this is sad. That's the word/feeling that came to mind as I read this post combined with past posts about GM, rBGH, hormones in beef etc. None of that stuff appears necessary for producing the same amount of ordinary grocery store food. Food which already has problems ie travels far, various sprays etc. But instead of the food quality improving as we get more "modern and smart" it appears to be getting less and less good for you. This is sad. It is unrealistic for anytime in the near future to think that most citizens will get their food anywhere but the grocery store or restarants and its sad that this is all there will be to choose from in a grocery store. I best stick to my resolution to increase my local food purchases. Beth > Consumers Beware: USDA Approves Nuked Meat! > > The US meat industry can now irradiate refrigerated or frozen raw beef, > pork, lamb, as well as meat products to prevent disease rather than solving > the problem by instituting more sanitary packing and handling conditions, > according to a December 14, 1999 U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) > announcement. USDA also weakened its existing regulations for poultry, > including no longer requiring that poultry be irradiated in the package in > which it is sold. This means that irradiated poultry products can be used > as ingredients in further processed products, such as TV dinners. > safe From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 21:59:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07866 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA06702; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:59:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA05857 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 20:47:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA390 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:46:26 -0500 Message-ID: <004e01bf533b$1722dd80$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: Subject: irradiated food Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:59:43 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1071 i don't want anyone being forced to eat unhealthy foods. i truly enjoy feedingpeople healthy good wholesome food, but i don not for a second want to say it is a good thing to have any "bad" foods on shelves. that is like wanting someone to die in order to prove our superiority. nobody really knows if these foods can kill you-some of us are pretty sure that they will! BUT, that does not mean it is profitable for any of us growers to let it pass-any of us. Uncertified organic farmers, & other growers-csa & otherwise will not be able to prove themselves unless certified-now we know what that costs-we will all suffer. i truly think all chemicals, etc. are killers-most of the so-called "weed controllers" used in lawns, golfcourses, gardens of today, were developed in world war 2 as nerve gasses by the nazis. truly sickening. the chemical companies are not going to tell you this! not a chance. how much would the regular guy spray on his lawn then? all i can say is that i had a bit of a shock when i read the post that said this was a good thing-shelves with nmore irradiatd foods. I know my product is good & safe! I don't need the consumer scared into buying it, or just buying it for a short time because of a scare. Much like y2k consulting firms who will go belly up 6 months after the scare, I would rather have a few good loyal consumers supporting me for the long haul-because they believe in us, not because we are the LAST RESORT! thanks for listening. zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Wed Dec 29 22:48:25 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA08171 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10017; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:48:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09249 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 21:37:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.37] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A2EAB2AF00C2; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:35:06 -0500 Message-ID: <006101bf5277$6730cae0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Robert Ripley" , References: <004e01bf533b$1722dd80$87c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Certification proves zip Date: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 22:38:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1072 Robert Ripley states: "Uncertified organic farmers, & other growers-csa & otherwise will not be able to prove themselves unless certified-now we know what that costs-we will all suffer. " Certified doesn't prove anything!! I'm a non-certified organic grower, not ashamed of it, & not about to be pushed around by those who are "certified"! What makes my paperwork less reliable, or my produce less desirable than someone who has a "certificate"?? A piece of paper, that is issued once a year, will not keep an unscrupulous grower from shortchanging the truth. My detailed input records, soil tests, compost tests, water tests, & tissue sample tests are sent to the same labs as certified growers, and are available to anyone & everyone wanting to see them. These are also taken to market days for customers wishing to see them. These tests, and not a "certificate", are proof! How am I making everyone suffer? (And I can guarantee I won't be "irradiating" anything-where would I hide the equipment so I can secretly zap my veggies?) Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 00:16:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01343 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:16:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA16182; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:16:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp1.usit.net (SMTP1.USIT.NET [199.1.48.41]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA15498 for ; Wed, 29 Dec 1999 23:04:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from lrhleebs.usit.net ([208.24.68.237]) by smtp1.usit.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id AAA16771 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:06:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 00:06:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199912300506.AAA16771@smtp1.usit.net> X-Sender: lrhleebs@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Ruth Fair Leeb Subject: Another reason for a network Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1073 > >> This came from Pamir on the GlobalHealingWeave list.... > >> > >> James Bender, in his book How to Talk Well (New York: McGraw-Hill Book > >> Company, Inc., 1994) relates the story of a farmer who grew award-winning > >> corn. Each year he entered his corn in the state fair where it won a blue > >> ribbon. One year a newspaper reporter interviewed him and learned > >something interesting about how he grew it. > >> > >> The reporter discovered that the farmer shared his seed corn with his > >> neighbors. "How can you afford to share your best seed corn with your > >> neighbors when they are entering corn in competition with yours each > >year?" the reporter asked. > >> > >> "Why sir," said the farmer, "didn't you know? The wind picks up pollen > >from the ripening corn and swirls it from field to field. If my neighbors grow inferior corn, cross-pollination will steadily degrade the quality of my corn. If I am to grow good corn, I must help my neighbors grow good > corn." > >> > >> He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot > >improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. > >> > >> So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must help > >> their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must help > >> others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it > >> touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find > >> happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all. > >> > >> The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we must > >> help our neighbors grow good corn. > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 10:54:54 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05246 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA20491; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:54:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19350 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:42:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.28] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACE988001AA; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:40:25 -0500 Message-ID: <002201bf52dc$ba1cde00$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Ruth Fair Leeb" , References: <199912300506.AAA16771@smtp1.usit.net> Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1074 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth Fair Leeb : "This came from Pamir on the GlobalHealingWeave list.... ... He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must help their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must help others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all. The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we must help our neighbors grow good corn." If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop dusters, park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, like that will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like something on a Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant and chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my heirloom, non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 11:44:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06042 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA24855; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:44:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23970 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:32:37 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.4e3b1523 (4533) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:31:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.4e3b1523.259ce2f5@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:31:49 EST Subject: Re: Another reason for a network To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part1_0.4e3b1523.259ce2f5_boundary" X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1075 --part1_0.4e3b1523.259ce2f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/30/99 7:48:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, pike@always-online.com writes: << If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop dusters, park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, like that will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like something on a Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant and chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my heirloom, non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. >> OK Liz, But none of us will know until you try it. Maybe they would consider a test plot and market. Maybe their soils are so bad they would blame the corn for its failure. But the real courage is in facing adversity not avoiding it. Its impossible to educate an adult who doesn't feel the need to learn. But its important to be available for questions. Their slings and arrows are crude defenses for ignorance. Have pitty on them. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm --part1_0.4e3b1523.259ce2f5_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (rly-yh03.mail.aol.com [172.18.147.35]) by air-yh05.mail.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:48:22 -0500 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by rly-yh03.mx.aol.com (v67.7) with ESMTP; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:48:13 1900 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA19879; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:48:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19350 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:42:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.28] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACE988001AA; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:40:25 -0500 Message-ID: <002201bf52dc$ba1cde00$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Ruth Fair Leeb" , References: <199912300506.AAA16771@smtp1.usit.net> Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:44:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN ----- Original Message ----- From: Ruth Fair Leeb : "This came from Pamir on the GlobalHealingWeave list.... ... He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must help their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must help others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all. The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we must help our neighbors grow good corn." If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop dusters, park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, like that will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like something on a Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant and chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my heirloom, non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens --part1_0.4e3b1523.259ce2f5_boundary-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 11:55:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06158 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA26004; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:55:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24025 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:33:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-140.premier1.net [207.149.54.140]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id IAA22036; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 08:26:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ed01bf52dc$0616bf20$8c3695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Michaele Blakely" Cc: Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 07:39:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1076 ----- Original Message ----- From: Michaele Blakely To: Elizabeth Pike Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elizabeth Pike > To: Ruth Fair Leeb ; > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 7:44 AM > Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > > My first thought on this reply is "Are you having a bad day?" My second is: > perhaps if you don't like what someone has said in a post, put it into a > reply that is sent to that particular person not to the whole group. > Information sent through the list is just information, how people digest it > is a personal matter. Sending replies like that just make people feel bad. > We have enough of that around allready. Farmers can disagree, but they > don't neccessarily need to do it negatively, in fact I learn a lot from > different points of view, and I appreciate the dialogues that appear that > have differences of opinions but are gentle and give credence to that > person's point of view. I'm posting this to the whole list, because I want > that person who sent the original to know that whether I agree or disagree, > she has the right to send out information and it should be considered > respectively. > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > Carnation WA > PS Perhaps discussing the difficulties of getting your organic way of > growing across to your neighbors would have been a more constructive reply. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ruth Fair Leeb : "This came from Pamir on the GlobalHealingWeave > > list.... > > > > ... He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot > > improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. > > So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must help > > their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must help > > others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it > > touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find > > happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all. > > The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we must > > help our neighbors grow good corn." > > > > If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop dusters, > > park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, like > that > > will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like something on > a > > Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant and > > chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my > heirloom, > > non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. > > > > Liz Pike > > Morningstar Gardens > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 12:07:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06301 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA27147; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:07:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25492 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 10:49:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.28] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACA1CFCE0110; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:47:29 -0500 Message-ID: <006201bf52e6$18d60c60$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Michaele Blakely" , "Ruth Fair Leeb" , References: <199912300506.AAA16771@smtp1.usit.net> <002201bf52dc$ba1cde00$02000003@default> <00e501bf52db$f354ce40$8c3695cf@pmjb> Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:51:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1077 Yeah, you're right-50 lashes with a wet noodle-sorry Ruth! And yes, I am having a bad day (bronkitis, flu & pneumonia-4 people under 1 roof-my whole family has the real Y2K bug-literally!!)-but that is no excuse-I'm usually not that gruff & rude. I do apologize. But as for persuading my neighbors-I've tried every tact known for 20 years-I give up. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ----- Original Message ----- From: Michaele Blakely To: Elizabeth Pike Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 10:38 AM Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Elizabeth Pike > To: Ruth Fair Leeb ; > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 7:44 AM > Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > > My first thought on this reply is "Are you having a bad day?" My second is: > perhaps if you don't like what someone has said in a post, put it into a > reply that is sent to that particular person not to the whole group. > Information sent through the list is just information, how people digest it > is a personal matter. Sending replies like that just make people feel bad. > We have enough of that around allready. Farmers can disagree, but they > don't neccessarily need to do it negatively, in fact I learn a lot from > different points of view, and I appreciate the dialogues that appear that > have differences of opinions but are gentle and give credence to that > person's point of view. I'm posting this to the whole list, because I want > that person who sent the original to know that whether I agree or disagree, > she has the right to send out information and it should be considered > respectively. > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > Carnation WA > PS Perhaps discussing the difficulties of getting your organic way of > growing across to your neighbors would have been a more constructive reply. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ruth Fair Leeb : "This came from Pamir on the GlobalHealingWeave > > list.... > > > > ... He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot > > improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. > > So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must help > > their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must help > > others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it > > touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find > > happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all. > > The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we must > > help our neighbors grow good corn." > > > > If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop dusters, > > park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, like > that > > will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like something on > a > > Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant and > > chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my > heirloom, > > non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. > > > > Liz Pike > > Morningstar Gardens > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 13:44:53 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07611 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05379; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:44:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03931 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:33:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07426; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18119; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:33:04 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:33:03 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Elizabeth Pike cc: Robert Ripley , CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification proves zip In-Reply-To: <006101bf5277$6730cae0$02000003@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1078 On Wed, 29 Dec 1999, Elizabeth Pike wrote: > Robert Ripley states: "Uncertified organic farmers, & other > growers-csa & otherwise will not be able to prove themselves unless > certified Yep, every day they're looking for new suckers willing to buy into that scam lock, stock and barrel. I hope RR hasn't been drawn into it. >-now we know what that costs-we will all suffer. " What's this supposed to mean? > Certified doesn't prove anything!! I'm a non-certified organic grower, not > ashamed of it, & not about to be pushed around by those who are "certified"! > What makes my paperwork less reliable, or my produce less desirable than > someone who has a "certificate"?? A piece of paper, that is issued once a > year, will not keep an unscrupulous grower from shortchanging the truth. Cost to your-average-small-grower, 1/10th - 10 acres, $250 minimum _each_ year, and _growing_ (they love that part). Can you say scam, scam, scam? Can you say less-small-growers-every-year, bigger market share for corporate agribiz, more and costlier paper-pushers/red-tape artists/grant-mongers complicating and attempting to dominate the livelihoods of small growers trying to do a good job and stay committed to a valuable profession while making a living wage? > My detailed input records, soil tests, compost tests, water tests, & tissue > sample tests are sent to the same labs as certified growers, and are > available to anyone & everyone wanting to see them. These are also taken to > market days for customers wishing to see them. These tests, and not a > "certificate", are proof! How am I making everyone suffer? (And I can > guarantee I won't be "irradiating" anything-where would I hide the equipment > so I can secretly zap my veggies?) > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens Amen, amen! Best wishes to Liz and all growers like her for a productive and profitable new Millenium! Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From CommonGro@aol.com Thu Dec 30 16:33:01 1999 Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01640 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:33:01 -0500 (EST) From: CommonGro@aol.com Received: from CommonGro@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id s.0.ba23aa4e (3858); Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:32:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.ba23aa4e.259d296c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:32:28 EST Subject: Re: Certification proves zip To: london@metalab.unc.edu, pike@always-online.com CC: bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1079 You don't really have to make us certified organic growers feel like Pariahs, or worse, idiots. Organic certification happens to be the law in our state and a requirement of our farmer's market association (for selling produce labeled organic). I totally commend Liz on her immaculate records and conscientious testing. That's not very common, though, for anyone, certified or not. I guess the problem I have is the person at the next market stand saying his produce it organic because the didn't spray it with anything. (but he doesn't tell the customer that he used herbicides before he planted in spring, bought the transplants at Agway and of course he uses "regular" fertilizer, how else could he grow such big peppers?) The guy wasn't trying to cheat anyone (I don't think) he really thought his produce merited the organic label because he didn't use Sevin this year. Maybe he noticed that people were standing in line to buy my broccoli because it was organic (even though slightly more expensive) and thought he could cut into some of that business. And I don't even mind that. What I mind is that his customers were being duped. This wouldn't happen in a situation like Liz's, because she is telling them exactly how it's grown. But I wonder if she runs into this kind of thing, and whether it matters much? Certainly the organic certification process doesn't prevent cheaters. But it does educate producers (at least our program does) such as the one I described at market, so at least they know what organic growing really means. Can I tell you another story? A produce grower approached me and asked how to go about getting certified. He was truly shocked to learn that genetically modified seed, conventional fertilizer and Round-Up (it's totally harmless, you know) were not permitted. He said he'd never get a crop without them. He also insinuated, no, I think he actually said, that organic growers on anything larger than a backyard scale are simply good liars. They can't really be farming according to the standards I told him. Anyway, let some of us be certified, without feeling spat upon. It's an overhead cost for me, like advertising, greenhouse plastic, and tractor repairs -- all things I do every year. Mine's not a hobby farm, but only gross' about $20,000. In fact, I'd even call it an educational expense, I look forward to having a knowledgable consultant on my farm for 4 hours every spring, and like a seminar or conference fee, it costs me proportionally more than someone whose farm makes a lot more money than mine. I don't mind, and I don't feel scammed. I'm not trying to convince anyone. Just asking for a little peace (and tolerance) on the list. Leslie Zuck Common Ground Farm in Pennsylvania (Yes, I'm the same person who works for a non-profit certification organization, but I felt this way even before I got the job, really! Just thought I'd fess up, and give some of you a chance to point out my obvious bias.) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 19:40:57 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03410 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA25062; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:39:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12666 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 14:38:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-161.premier1.net [207.149.54.161]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id MAA03794; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 12:32:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <003801bf52fe$580ed0c0$a13695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Elizabeth Pike" Cc: References: <199912300506.AAA16771@smtp1.usit.net> <002201bf52dc$ba1cde00$02000003@default> <00e501bf52db$f354ce40$8c3695cf@pmjb> <006201bf52e6$18d60c60$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:44:51 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1080 ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Pike To: Michaele Blakely ; Ruth Fair Leeb ; Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > Yeah, you're right-50 lashes with a wet noodle-sorry Ruth! And yes, I am > having a bad day (bronkitis, flu & pneumonia-4 people under 1 roof-my whole > family has the real Y2K bug-literally!!)-but that is no excuse-I'm usually > not that gruff & rude. I do apologize. But as for persuading my > neighbors-I've tried every tact known for 20 years-I give up. > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > It's not just a bad day, it's one of my worst nightmares! Times like these make life very difficult. I live in an area surrounded by old farmers originally and now new "organic types" are coming in. It's been an interesting transition. For the most part organics has been met with a tolerant attitude. It's your land, do what you want with it kind of thing. They then expect the same tolerance. I've found (at least for me) attitude is everything in the approach of these folks. First, we're all farmers and it is a respect kind of thing. Second I just do my thing. Eventually people want to know how I'm getting such incredible yields, and do I really make a living on such little land etc? I'm known in the valley as that organic egg lady among those old guys, and while I'm not going to sit and talk about what new pesticide is up and coming for this year I do hear how someone tried sunflowers in thier corn last season, and by god it worked! It's a slow process, change, especially in humans, and especially when it hasn't been asked for. For awhile I managed a farmers market in Seattle as well as selling my produce. It was an interesting straddle between the two and then the definition between organnic and non came up. There were a lot of non-organic growers that were definitely defensive especially after it became the markets policy (for the city) that all labeled organic produce had to be certified. Organic produce commands a higher price. I had quite a few barbs aimed my direction. They went away after those non organic farmers realized I was there for farmers, not just my particular group. I have a lot of friends that farm chemically now. They are not insulted when I won't eat their food or feed their extras to my chickens. They understand my space and I theirs. It's saddens me to think of how they grow, but I opt to try to change their views by example. I'm also not a very confrontational person. That's probably why during the WTO thing I chose to not be in anything that looked aggresive although I certainly had the chance to. The fact that my 13 year old son was with me probably had a whole lot to do with it as well. Anyway, I hope this doesn't sound preachy, it's not my intent. It's my way of going about this issue and it helps me to keep my frustrations down to a manageable level knowing (or at least thinking I know) I'm doing some education. It has at least opened up some interesting discussions between old and new farmers in this valley. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 19:51:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA03470 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA26106; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:50:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14225 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:18:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.112] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ABC318401AC; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:16:51 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01bf530b$bb055de0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Shares per sq ft Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF52E1.D165EB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1081 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF52E1.D165EB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, so now I know how many cracks are in my bedroom ceiling. I've = come up with some questions-true to a CSA list-each in it's own email so = as not to be confusing, and easier for me to file & locate later! =20 Has an analysis been done to estimate how many sq ft it takes to supply = a share for 1 season/year? Also, how much labor is required to supply = 1 share/5 shares/10 shares, etc before needing off-farm help? I = understand this varies depending on your region, growing & cultural = practices, & that share amounts vary from week to week. I just want = rough estimates. Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF52E1.D165EB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Okay, so now I know how many cracks are in my bedroom=20 ceiling.  I've come up with some questions-true to a CSA=20 list-each in it's own email so as not to be confusing, and easier = for me to=20 file & locate later!
     
    Has an analysis been done to estimate how many sq ft it takes = to=20 supply a share for 1 season/year?   Also, how much labor is=20 required to supply 1 share/5 shares/10 shares, etc before needing = off-farm=20 help?  I understand this varies depending on your region, = growing=20 & cultural practices, & that share amounts vary from week to = week. =20 I just want rough estimates.
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Gardens
    ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BF52E1.D165EB60-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:02:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03582 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26829; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:01:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14308 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:21:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.112] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC48BF06014C; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:19:04 -0500 Message-ID: <002101bf530c$0a3f5960$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Wash/pack house Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:22:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF52E2.20A78800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1082 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF52E2.20A78800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What kind of facilities do you have for preping your produce such as a = wash/pack house? (And I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered before. = I read through the archives, and don't remember.) =20 Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF52E2.20A78800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    What kind of facilities do you have for preping your produce such = as a=20 wash/pack house?  (And I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered=20 before.  I read through the archives, and don't remember.)
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Gardens
    ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BF52E2.20A78800-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:14:03 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03631 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA27696; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:13:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14385 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:23:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.112] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ACC72D401F4; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:21:11 -0500 Message-ID: <002901bf530c$55ceea80$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Starting over/winning the lottery! Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:25:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF52E2.6C1EAF20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1083 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF52E2.6C1EAF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you could start off fresh, knowing what you know now, what would you = have done differently to get your CSA going/or keep it running more = smoothly? or to start your farm/market garden? Liz Pike Morningstar Garden =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF52E2.6C1EAF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    If you could start off fresh, knowing what you know now, what would = you=20 have done differently to get your CSA going/or keep it running more=20 smoothly?  or to start your farm/market garden?
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Garden
      ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BF52E2.6C1EAF20-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:25:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03702 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA28590; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:24:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14612 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:27:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.112] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id ADBD33501F4; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:25:17 -0500 Message-ID: <003101bf530c$e83eb580$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Greenhouses in hurricane zones Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:29:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF52E2.FE9F4300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1084 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF52E2.FE9F4300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see alot of the tobacco greenhouses sitting around now, no longer = needed, and wonder about picking up one cheap, but then wonder "what" = may have penetrated the materials, and if they're feasible to move. I = know they've stood the test of our hurricanes. Has anyone had any = experience with greenhouses in the hurricane regions of the US? Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens North Carolina ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF52E2.FE9F4300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
      I see alot of the tobacco greenhouses sitting around now, no = longer=20 needed, and wonder about picking up one cheap, but then wonder "what" = may have=20 penetrated the materials, and if they're feasible to move.  I know = they've=20 stood the test of our hurricanes.  Has anyone had any experience = with=20 greenhouses in the hurricane regions of the US?
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Gardens
    North Carolina
    ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BF52E2.FE9F4300-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:36:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03840 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00024; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:35:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14939 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:33:34 -0600 (CST) From: CommonGro@aol.com Received: from CommonGro@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id s.0.ba23aa4e (3858); Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:32:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.ba23aa4e.259d296c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:32:28 EST Subject: Re: Certification proves zip To: london@metalab.unc.edu, pike@always-online.com CC: bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1085 You don't really have to make us certified organic growers feel like Pariahs, or worse, idiots. Organic certification happens to be the law in our state and a requirement of our farmer's market association (for selling produce labeled organic). I totally commend Liz on her immaculate records and conscientious testing. That's not very common, though, for anyone, certified or not. I guess the problem I have is the person at the next market stand saying his produce it organic because the didn't spray it with anything. (but he doesn't tell the customer that he used herbicides before he planted in spring, bought the transplants at Agway and of course he uses "regular" fertilizer, how else could he grow such big peppers?) The guy wasn't trying to cheat anyone (I don't think) he really thought his produce merited the organic label because he didn't use Sevin this year. Maybe he noticed that people were standing in line to buy my broccoli because it was organic (even though slightly more expensive) and thought he could cut into some of that business. And I don't even mind that. What I mind is that his customers were being duped. This wouldn't happen in a situation like Liz's, because she is telling them exactly how it's grown. But I wonder if she runs into this kind of thing, and whether it matters much? Certainly the organic certification process doesn't prevent cheaters. But it does educate producers (at least our program does) such as the one I described at market, so at least they know what organic growing really means. Can I tell you another story? A produce grower approached me and asked how to go about getting certified. He was truly shocked to learn that genetically modified seed, conventional fertilizer and Round-Up (it's totally harmless, you know) were not permitted. He said he'd never get a crop without them. He also insinuated, no, I think he actually said, that organic growers on anything larger than a backyard scale are simply good liars. They can't really be farming according to the standards I told him. Anyway, let some of us be certified, without feeling spat upon. It's an overhead cost for me, like advertising, greenhouse plastic, and tractor repairs -- all things I do every year. Mine's not a hobby farm, but only gross' about $20,000. In fact, I'd even call it an educational expense, I look forward to having a knowledgable consultant on my farm for 4 hours every spring, and like a seminar or conference fee, it costs me proportionally more than someone whose farm makes a lot more money than mine. I don't mind, and I don't feel scammed. I'm not trying to convince anyone. Just asking for a little peace (and tolerance) on the list. Leslie Zuck Common Ground Farm in Pennsylvania (Yes, I'm the same person who works for a non-profit certification organization, but I felt this way even before I got the job, really! Just thought I'd fess up, and give some of you a chance to point out my obvious bias.) From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:47:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03925 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA01531; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:46:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f266.hotmail.com [216.32.180.224]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA15418 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:45:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 43564 invoked by uid 0); 30 Dec 1999 21:44:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19991230214439.43563.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.15 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 13:44:39 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.15] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Another reason for a network Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:44:39 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1086 Oh Sheesh, I thought it was only me and just the ignorant fools who take up space in my neck of the woods and just flatly refuse to Get It! Grins. Prophets are _always_ despised in their own land, always have been. In a strange way, being despised means we're going something right! I am SOOOO glad to hear that I'm not all alone! It sure does feel that way sometimes! Don't mind me. Just had another "visit" (read, run-in) with one of those wannabe housemate borderline sociopaths who haven't put in any money (and don't intend to) and haven't put in any work (and don't intend to) but are full of criticism and suggestions for improvement. Stress is that awful feeling that arrives when you can't beat the living compost out of somebody who really, really needs it. And right now I'm just full of stress. Sigh. I sure hope the goats behave themselves tonight. Otherwise one of them is likely to find himself wrestled to the ground and pinned -- I'm not in a mood to be real patient. Before anybody starts in with reminders to pick on somebody my own size, keep in mind that I'm talking about 200-pound pack wethers. Who do NOT want to be wrestled to the ground and pinned. It's a good workout! They've finally begun to pay attention to my warnings and are usually pretty well behaved if I walk into the barn growling. Bless their hearts, they're all mentally ill but they're not stupid. Dori Green Now you know how I work out my stress.... >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: "Michaele Blakely" , "Ruth Fair Leeb" >, >Subject: Re: Another reason for a network >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 11:51:18 -0500 > >Yeah, you're right-50 lashes with a wet noodle-sorry Ruth! And yes, I am >having a bad day (bronkitis, flu & pneumonia-4 people under 1 roof-my whole >family has the real Y2K bug-literally!!)-but that is no excuse-I'm usually >not that gruff & rude. I do apologize. But as for persuading my >neighbors-I've tried every tact known for 20 years-I give up. > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Gardens > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Michaele Blakely >To: Elizabeth Pike >Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 10:38 AM >Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Elizabeth Pike > > To: Ruth Fair Leeb ; > > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 7:44 AM > > Subject: Re: Another reason for a network > > > > > > My first thought on this reply is "Are you having a bad day?" My second >is: > > perhaps if you don't like what someone has said in a post, put it into >a > > reply that is sent to that particular person not to the whole group. > > Information sent through the list is just information, how people digest >it > > is a personal matter. Sending replies like that just make people feel >bad. > > We have enough of that around allready. Farmers can disagree, but they > > don't neccessarily need to do it negatively, in fact I learn a lot from > > different points of view, and I appreciate the dialogues that appear >that > > have differences of opinions but are gentle and give credence to that > > person's point of view. I'm posting this to the whole list, because I >want > > that person who sent the original to know that whether I agree or >disagree, > > she has the right to send out information and it should be considered > > respectively. > > Michaele Blakely > > Growing Things > > Carnation WA > > PS Perhaps discussing the difficulties of getting your organic way of > > growing across to your neighbors would have been a more constructive >reply. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Ruth Fair Leeb : "This came from Pamir on the >GlobalHealingWeave > > > list.... > > > > > > ... He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn >cannot > > > improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves. > > > So it is in other dimensions. Those who choose to be at peace must >help > > > their neighbors to be at peace. Those who choose to live well must >help > > > others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives >it > > > touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find > > > happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of >all. > > > The lesson for each of us is this: if we are to grow good corn, we >must > > > help our neighbors grow good corn." > > > > > > If I am to grow good corn, my neighbors need to ground their crop >dusters, > > > park their sprayers, & burn their GE seed contracts. Yeah, right, >like > > that > > > will ever happen! Nice thought, but total crap. Sounds like >something >on > > a > > > Hallmark card. I can just see me walking into the local restaurant >and > > > chewing the cud with these curmudgeons, persuading them to grow my > > heirloom, > > > non-treated, open pollinated, unadulterated seed. > > > > > > Liz Pike > > > Morningstar Gardens > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 20:58:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04051 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA02728; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 19:57:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16450 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:10:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA62; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:09:02 -0500 Message-ID: <003401bf5314$514215c0$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" , "Elizabeth Pike" References: <004e01bf533b$1722dd80$87c3a4cf@accel.net> <006101bf5277$6730cae0$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Certification proves zip Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:22:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1087 you miss my point! i am saying, that if the scare of sprays, GE foods etc. does become greater, the market will demand certification. a third party certification. our seeds MUST be from certified sources now, for any harvests AFTER year 2000-this all ads up-my consumers know us & will buy here whether we r cert. or not-what i am saying is-if the scare does become REAL to anyone EXCEPT US who already take it VERY seriously, then certification will be a requirement of the CONSUMER. ok? certified or not zone 5 ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: Elizabeth Pike To: Robert Ripley ; Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:38 PM Subject: Certification proves zip > > Robert Ripley states: "Uncertified organic farmers, & other > growers-csa & otherwise will not be able to prove themselves unless > certified-now we know what that costs-we will all suffer. " > > Certified doesn't prove anything!! I'm a non-certified organic grower, not > ashamed of it, & not about to be pushed around by those who are "certified"! > What makes my paperwork less reliable, or my produce less desirable than > someone who has a "certificate"?? A piece of paper, that is issued once a > year, will not keep an unscrupulous grower from shortchanging the truth. > My detailed input records, soil tests, compost tests, water tests, & tissue > sample tests are sent to the same labs as certified growers, and are > available to anyone & everyone wanting to see them. These are also taken to > market days for customers wishing to see them. These tests, and not a > "certificate", are proof! How am I making everyone suffer? (And I can > guarantee I won't be "irradiating" anything-where would I hide the equipment > so I can secretly zap my veggies?) > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 21:09:51 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04148 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA03630; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:08:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16823 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:15:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA388; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:14:50 -0500 Message-ID: <005301bf5315$20a70aa0$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" , "Toni Hawryluk" References: <06abe1706031ec9CPIMSSMTPU03@email.msn.com> Subject: Re: irradiated food - next ..... Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:27:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1088 i don't think i dumped the list-like you said i had an opinion. ----- Original Message ----- From: Toni Hawryluk To: Robert Ripley Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 1999 10:38 PM Subject: Re: irradiated food - next ..... > >i don't want anyone being forced to eat unhealthy foods > (snip) > >all i can say is that i had a bit of a shock when i read the post that said > >this was a good thing > (snip) > >zone 5 ontario > > > Robert, I did not write the post to which you refer, but I did send a reply > to it ..... > > There are several things we need to keep in mind : > > what we read is often not what the writer meant to say, e-mail is notorious > for being misunderstood - > > people have a right to voice their opinions even if we don't agree with > them - > > we can make the attempt to persuade to change the thinking when it appears > to be truly meant and damaging - > > but in the final analysis, we need to keep to our own standards and not dump > the list just because somebody is making us angry. > > We have our own message(s) to impart, and there are many people who are > listening - to us. > > Toni Hawryluk > Seattle > tonihawr@email.msn.com > > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 21:20:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04228 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04157; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:19:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17345 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:27:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.135]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA336 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:26:56 -0500 Message-ID: <005b01bf5316$d1836b60$87c3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" Subject: to be sert. or not.. Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 17:40:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1089 hello list well, i feel like i have been dumped on-how come nobody sticks up for me?? hehe :) seriously, i don't mind being dumped on, & i am not a sucker, or been scammed-please lets try to keep personal name calling down to a minimum. i too have feelings-even though i am certified. it is also against the law here to call yourselves organic & not be certified. there is nothing wrong with each person/farm deciding for themselves how to run their enterprise. We make money, we never tell our consmers lies about our crops, growing methods, etc. BUT we also need to have a good source of certified organic seed for OTHER growers-this will be our livelihood as of 2001. we are in the process of becoming a supplier of seed for organic growers-in canada, as of 2001 all crops labelled organic must be from traceable seed stock-not sprayed, bought at the local nursery & replanted, not GE etc. I have no problem at all with the costs of the certification-as leslie said, it is part of the operating costs. people bought from us BEFORE certification, BUT now we can sell our product to other markets, & to organic growers-the growing chain will be from good solid open-pollinated healthy seed. I have not been duped, scammed or taken advantage of-i realize fully what i am doing. our markets here, also demand it. our "inspectors" show up unannounced, our consumers are free to run our fields, & the guy 20 acres over-the nearest farm was shocked when i told him we actually harvest our dandelions & burrs-all for organic tinctures etc. NO, i am not stupid-just a businessperson. I want my farm to survive me, & if it means certification in order to compete, so be it. we have invested more money, time, energy, life into this farm-our home- than into any other project. this is our life. so, i must admit at being very upset by now- we will make our projected income for the second year running, & this finally means a profit!!! certification may not work for all, but i believe it works for us thanks for the time list. have a safe & happy Y2K zone 5 ontario From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 21:32:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04289 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA04948; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:30:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20832 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:02:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-108.premier1.net [207.149.54.108]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id PAA03310 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:56:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002401bf531a$ddd76840$6c3695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: co-operative CSA Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 15:09:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF52D7.CF04AE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1090 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF52D7.CF04AE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A while back someone (I think in Sweden) asked about large co-operative = CSA's. I mentioned the one at Pike in Seattle and said I would get that = info. I apologize for taking so long, and not contacting you = personally, the message with your address was deleted. They didn't get = back to me until today. If you would send me your mailing address I can = pass along the info they sent to me. Also the contact person is Michele = Catalano. Her e-mail address is csa@pikeplacemarket.org. She will not = be back from vacation until Febuary however.=20 Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF52D7.CF04AE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    A while back someone (I think in = Sweden) asked=20 about large co-operative CSA's.  I mentioned the one at Pike in = Seattle and=20 said I would get that info.  I apologize for taking so long, and = not=20 contacting you personally, the message with your address was = deleted.  They=20 didn't get back to me until today.  If you would send me your = mailing=20 address I can pass along the info they sent to me.  Also the = contact person=20 is Michele Catalano.  Her e-mail address is csa@pikeplacemarket.org. = ; She=20 will not be back from vacation until Febuary however. 
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation = WA 
    ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BF52D7.CF04AE60-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 21:43:12 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04352 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA05893; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:42:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.9]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03234 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:02:17 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.ed95a44 (4409) for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:01:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.ed95a44.259d687c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:01:32 EST Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1091 << Has an analysis been done to estimate how many sq ft it takes to supply a share for 1 season/year? Also, how much labor is required to supply 1 share/5 shares/10 shares, etc before needing off-farm help? I understand this varies depending on your region, growing & cultural practices, & that share amounts vary from week to week. I just want rough estimates. >> Good questions Liz, The problem in describing the range of variables is the diversity between regions, growing and cultural practices. The oldest farmer on the island likes to come by and kick around for an annual look. He is 86 years old and very proud of his chemical and mechanized operation. He shakes his head and tells me I'm not a farmer because I don't even own a tractor. He owns 9 and would almost give me one if I would take it. But two years ago when he visited, my garlic was just about ready for harvest. Again, he shook his head and said," It takes me two acres to grow as much garlic as you have in those two beds." I hardly have enough room to turn one of his tractors around on my place. But I grow as much on my 1.5 acre bio-intensive garden as he can produce on twenty acres. Most of my soil amendments are free as long as I provide the labor to haul and compost them (usually during the winter months). He spends tens of thousands of dollars on fertilizers, herbicides, fungicides and pesticides each year. I address these two extremes to make a point. I don't think shares per square ft can be averaged because the variables are so great. Labor cost will also depend on the level of mechanization which is highly variable. So for our operation it takes a little less than 1,200 sq. ft of raised bio-intensively planted beds per subscription per year. But we do a lot of succession planting in those beds. It takes two farmers at 40 hours per week. Usually I put in a 60 hour week and I have an intern\apprentice for the other 20 (plus 72 chickens for pest control, post harvest remediation, fertilization and cultivation). These numbers are for the growing season only. In the winter I work maybe 24 hours a week and catch up on my reading and studies. I attend workshops and do community service work. We are maxed out at 55 subscriptions per year. I prefer to shoot for 42 and then accept the late comers I know personally up to 55. When you look at the literature of small farming you will see much higher land and labor cost per unit. Our subscription service is not our only market. We have a much higher margin on the added value products we sell to support the farm. So we may not be a CSA by some definitions but the marketing process works to get a fair number of people closer to their food source. Can't wait for the next question. I hope you are feeling better and able to enjoy the new year. Kind regards, Art Biggert From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 21:58:56 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04499 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA06779; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:57:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06186 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:46:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.185] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A89BD0232; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: <002c01bf5339$896e1f00$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Wrestling Goats Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:48:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF530F.9F7AC020" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1092 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF530F.9F7AC020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wrestling goats--is this one of the programs you offer, Dori?? Might = give WWF=20 some competition!! I can see it now--CSAWWGF! Marketing the "cluck"! Liz Pike Morningstar Garden =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF530F.9F7AC020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Wrestling goats--is this one of the programs you offer, = Dori??  Might=20 give WWF
    some competition!!  I can see it now--CSAWWGF!  = Marketing=20 the "cluck"!

    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Garden

      ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01BF530F.9F7AC020-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 22:10:08 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04589 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA07870; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:09:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06394 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:50:15 -0600 (CST) From: CommonGro@aol.com Received: from CommonGro@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.d86a0d3d (7867); Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:49:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.d86a0d3d.259d73c1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:49:37 EST Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft To: SCook21809@aol.com, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1093 Growing for Market had some good articles as few years back on planning your planting based on number of shares and I think 100 row-feet units. The one I'm thinking of had a double-page chart. I found it helpful in making sure I planted enough when I expanded our CSA membership. (We do some intensive-method-three-crops-per-season-beds and some row crops (corn, beans, potatoes). I've found it takes 2 full-time-equivalent workers to handle about 50 shares during the season. Leslie in PA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 22:21:19 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04654 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA09012; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:20:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06596 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 20:54:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.185] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AA7F90244; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:52:47 -0500 Message-ID: <005b01bf533a$aa0499a0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: References: <06abe1706031ec9CPIMSSMTPU03@email.msn.com> <005301bf5315$20a70aa0$87c3a4cf@accel.net> Subject: Misunderstood Email Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:56:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1094 > > There are several things we need to keep in mind : > > > > what we read is often not what the writer meant to say, e-mail is > notorious > > for being misunderstood - > > > > people have a right to voice their opinions even if we don't agree with > > them - > > Toni, are you speaking to me? =8^0 ?!! Liz in her rambling state Morningstar Gardens From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 22:32:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04759 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA09803; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:31:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08560 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:15:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04622; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27259; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:15:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:15:46 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: CommonGro@aol.com cc: pike@always-online.com, bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification proves zip In-Reply-To: <0.ba23aa4e.259d296c@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1095 Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 CommonGro@aol.com wrote: > You don't really have to make us certified organic growers feel like > Pariahs, or worse, idiots. Organic certification happens to be the law in our > state and a requirement of our farmer's market association (for selling > produce labeled organic). That's the problem with it, in your state at least, that _it's mandatory_. I posted in haste, previously; I meant to say that organic certification is a really good thing for American agriculture and American consumers _as long as it is not mandatory_. The American public must be weaned from the lazy habit of depending on their government's stamp of approval on a product before being willing to purchase it. While this is necessary for many things it is not always needed for organic products. > Anyway, let some of us be certified, without feeling spat upon. It's an Go for it, I recommend it; its just part of the cost of doing business - but don't force people to become certified. > Leslie Zuck > Common Ground Farm in Pennsylvania > (Yes, I'm the same person who works for a non-profit certification > organization, but I felt this way even before I got the job, really! Just > thought I'd fess up, and give some of you a chance to point out my obvious > bias.) Bias duly noted. :-) LL From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Thu Dec 30 22:43:27 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04820 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10710; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:42:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from ra.raex.com (ra.raex.com [216.196.16.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA08689 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:18:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (akron-216-196-24-108.raex.com [216.196.24.108]) by ra.raex.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA21146 for ; Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:16:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001801bf533d$1ec06920$6c18c4d8@default> From: "carol busson" To: Subject: well, we are certified too Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 22:14:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1096 Hi folks, We too are certified. And we have often joked in our family that there is no way a single yearly visit by a certifying agency and the creation of a paper trail could legislate all the stuff we have to do to BE organic growers. Cheats will always exist and will probably get plenty more prevelent as more and more folks see some money to be made with an organic sticker on their produce. We certify because the folks we wholesale to demand it. In our state it is a legal description and we cannot call ourselves organic without being certified. If we say we are sort of organic but don't want to participate the places we sell to wonder if it is because we wouldn't pass the certification process. We do have a csa but I am not sure that I am up to personally knowing every single person who eats our produce and the certification is one way for the customer we don't know to be slightly more secure about our growing methods without actually being here seeing it all first hand. At a conference we attended recently where Elliot Coleman spoke (he is uncertified) he suggested that now that the term organic has been compromised by legalities and politics "real" organic farmers create a new terminology for themselves to be known by, something local folks could depend on to mean the best produce available. We too have had the experience selling where folks are calling themselves organic based on the fact that they only used a little bit of roundup this year and almost no insecticides. Getting into heated debate over such issues at farmers markets or the feed mill only brands you as a nut case, in my experience. So, we are certified but it seems like in a more perfect world we would deal with people (produce eaters) who were so educated and hip about organic produce that the certification would be superfilous and it would be a $300 expense we could leave out of our budget. Carol Busson Dragonfly Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 06:21:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA07238 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA27324; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 05:19:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d10.mx (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27095 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 05:07:52 -0600 (CST) From: FranksFarm@aol.com Received: from FranksFarm@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.8b61e4b1 (4453) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:07:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.8b61e4b1.259de864@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:07:16 EST Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1097 Happy Holidays and best wishes for a nEW and BETTER Milennium to all. Liz...I'm hoping to start a CSA on my farm in south central Kentucky. It's in a very rural area that suits me fine( we've just made the gigantic leap back to the land from Long Island, NY:)) Prices for fruits and vegetables at the farm gate are inho too low to make a decent. profit. many folks just grow vegetables, and then at last minute sell or give them away. lexington is an hour or so away and there are some Organic Coops marketing there which though a pain transportation/time wise may be a more viable option. Sure would like to find more local customers willing to pay a reasonable price for such produce that I intend to raise organically with or without certification. So I'm very interested in the answers to a number of questions you have recently put before the list. We need to start compiling such details for the benefit of all, and potentilally new CSA'ers. Sure there atre regional differences in timing, soils etc. but rather than simply state that why not tell us what you are doing in your region...then at least we can begin to see effective regional practices, varieties etc. that should help flatten the learning curve:) Look forward to the list's responses to your questions. Frank From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 08:18:17 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA07780 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA29931; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:17:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA29523 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:06:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.35] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A9CF1B70240; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:04:15 -0500 Message-ID: <003501bf5390$1669ed20$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Re: well, we are certified too Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:08:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1098 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: carol busson > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 10:14 PM > Subject: well, we are certified too > > > >"...Elliot Coleman spoke (he is uncertified) he suggested that now that the >> term organic has been compromised by legalities and politics "real" organic > > farmers create a new terminology for themselves to be known by, something > > local folks could depend on to mean the best produce available..." Maybe he can come up with something--I've racked my brain trying! Naturally grown is too vague, people don't know what "sustainable" means, what's left? > > We too have had the experience selling where folks are calling themselves > > organic based on the fact that they only used a little bit of roundup this > > year and almost no insecticides. Getting into heated debate over such > > issues at farmers markets or the feed mill only brands you as a nut case, > >in my experience. I have gotten into this argument, too, without, being certified. (And yes, the people thought I was certifiably insane!) You can't use Sevin dust, and say you're organic! You can't use Miracle Gro, and say you're organic! > > So, we are certified but it seems like in a more perfect world we would > deal with people (produce eaters) who were so educated and hip about organic > > produce that the certification would be superfilous and it would be a $300 > > expense we could leave out of our budget. My customers aren't necessarily educated about organic produce--but they are by the time they leave my booth. They don't even know what certification means, & I tell them, and tell them why I'm not, and also that a time may come when I must. But I don't want to complicate my life until I'm forced! Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens From HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Fri Dec 31 08:39:46 1999 Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09232 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:39:46 -0500 (EST) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id s.0.bcc74114 (304); Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:39:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:39:08 EST Subject: Re: Certification proves zip To: CommonGro@aol.com, london@metalab.unc.edu, pike@always-online.com CC: bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1099 I believe that certification has its place--but its place is not necessarily everywhere! We primarily market our produce (and chickens, turkeys and pork) at our farmstand and CSA. Over the years we have built up a relationship of trust with our customers. They have a definite feeling of ownership for our farm. We make it a point to invite customers & CSA members to visit the gardens, and point out the holistic relationships between our plants, animals and farmers. This is often time consuming and inconvenient for us, but we feel it is one of the best investments we can make! On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. Linda Homestead Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 08:54:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA09295 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA01386; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:51:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA00963 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 07:40:36 -0600 (CST) From: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com Received: from HMSTDFRMS@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id s.0.bcc74114 (304); Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:39:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:39:08 EST Subject: Re: Certification proves zip To: CommonGro@aol.com, london@metalab.unc.edu, pike@always-online.com CC: bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1100 I believe that certification has its place--but its place is not necessarily everywhere! We primarily market our produce (and chickens, turkeys and pork) at our farmstand and CSA. Over the years we have built up a relationship of trust with our customers. They have a definite feeling of ownership for our farm. We make it a point to invite customers & CSA members to visit the gardens, and point out the holistic relationships between our plants, animals and farmers. This is often time consuming and inconvenient for us, but we feel it is one of the best investments we can make! On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. Linda Homestead Farms From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 09:37:15 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09531 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA03351; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:35:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f252.hotmail.com [216.32.181.252]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02715 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:23:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 81844 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 14:23:16 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231142316.81843.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.7 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:23:16 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.7] From: "Dori Green" To: pike@always-online.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Wrestling Goats Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:23:16 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1101 Nah, I only do this in private and for the amusement of my apprentices. Otherwise it's much too embarrassing when the goat wins (the apprentices already laugh at me, which I consider to be a Very Good Thing). In warm weather my correction device is a very humane water-only squirt gun. Not so humane when the wind chill is at -15! Goats are smart, and they've figured out that they won't get wet faces when it's cold so I had to develop another deterrent to those little goatie amusements like "Let's all ten of us storm the gate at once and do a tap dance on Mommy!" It's pretty funny -- I just have to do one Belcher-like growl (remember him, the cop from Hill Street?) and every goat stops whatever they're doing, takes three measured steps back, and watches me for the next signal. I should video tape our routine. Dori Green >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: >Subject: Wrestling Goats >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 21:48:35 -0500 > >Wrestling goats--is this one of the programs you offer, Dori?? Might give >WWF >some competition!! I can see it now--CSAWWGF! Marketing the "cluck"! > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Garden > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 09:50:02 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA09659 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04162; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:48:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f170.hotmail.com [216.32.181.170]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA03520 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:37:50 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 17867 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 14:37:15 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231143715.17866.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.7 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:37:15 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.7] From: "Dori Green" To: pike@always-online.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Starting over/winning the lottery! Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:37:15 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1102 It's never too late to start over. And yes of course I have my Millenial lottery ticket and will be glued to the TV tonight. Or whenever the drawing is being broadcast. Which tells you exactly how much time and attention I really pay to the darn thing. If I win the lottery it'll be just like the old joke: I guess I'll just keep farming until it's all gone. All things considered, as a millenial reflection I'm very satisfied with where I'm at right now though I might have chosen a different bus or two to get here if the choice had been up to me. EVERYBODY notices, immediately, what poor rocky ground I'm on. Give me another five years to keep working John Jeavons and Dori Green magic on these raised beds. I still maintain that if other people are going to keep on paving over the best river-bottom land and poisoning the rivers, somebody had better learn how to make rocky drought-prone hardscrabble hilltops productive and I _am_ somebody so it might as well be me. Right now I can feed 50 four-person families on six acres, and almost half of that is dedicated to flowers and herbs. Within the Ash Grove five-year plan is: formation of a not-for-profit community land trust purchase of riverfront farms as they come up for sale adding deed restrictions to those farms leasing them at affordable rates for organic agriculture My New Year's Resolution is to get my website finished and back on-line. Dori Green >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: >Subject: Starting over/winning the lottery! >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:25:01 -0500 > >If you could start off fresh, knowing what you know now, what would you >have done differently to get your CSA going/or keep it running more >smoothly? or to start your farm/market garden? > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Garden > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 10:01:42 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09738 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05071; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:00:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f241.hotmail.com [216.32.181.241]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04219 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:49:24 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 71484 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 14:48:49 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231144849.71483.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.7 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:48:49 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.7] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:48:49 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1103 I used to figure things out in such detail and keep careful records of same. But I'm much better now, thanks. Just stretching your bunjie, Liz. Gods and goddesses bless anybody who can be so meticulous! I'm busy enough working the two off-farm jobs and keeping the goats and chickens fed and the weeds kinda sorta ripped away from the crops. In all seriousness, I quit trying to keep such meticulous records because there was such a variation in the data -- how much rainfall, when, what were the day and night temps and how much difference between the two, were the deer hungry or not, was the help reliable and conscientious and capable (y'all know how much work I ever got out of the $6-per-hour kid from the Youth Center who was in Special Ed because of his ADHD). This is part of why I don't think farming ever could be accurately subjected to the kind of systems analysis that industry employs. As a database designer and systems analyst/technical writer, I can tell you for sure that those danged variables will getcha every time! Dori Green >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: >Subject: Shares per sq ft >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:42 -0500 > >Okay, so now I know how many cracks are in my bedroom ceiling. I've come >up with some questions-true to a CSA list-each in it's own email so as not >to be confusing, and easier for me to file & locate later! > >Has an analysis been done to estimate how many sq ft it takes to supply a >share for 1 season/year? Also, how much labor is required to supply 1 >share/5 shares/10 shares, etc before needing off-farm help? I understand >this varies depending on your region, growing & cultural practices, & that >share amounts vary from week to week. I just want rough estimates. > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Gardens ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 10:13:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09820 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA05845; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:11:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f87.hotmail.com [216.32.181.87]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04551 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:55:13 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 20149 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 14:54:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231145439.20148.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.7 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:54:39 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.7] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Wash/pack house Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:54:39 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1104 Sawhorses, boards, clean sheets, hose, plastic tubs, root cellar, and a couple of old refrigerators in the garage. A really nice pole barn next to the garden is in our future plans, but the current system works okay for now. Getting that initial field heat off the produce is most important for us. We also harvest and do all other hard work in the WAY early morning, often with headlamps and bug nets. That helps, too. I started with that system because of my high blood pressure (too hot + too active = too much chance of a stroke), and discovered very soon that it was just plain more comfortable. Dori Green Built for comfort, not for speed. >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: >Subject: Wash/pack house >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:22:55 -0500 > >What kind of facilities do you have for preping your produce such as a >wash/pack house? (And I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered before. I >read through the archives, and don't remember.) > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Gardens ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 10:24:45 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10010 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA06697; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:22:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f51.hotmail.com [216.32.181.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA04695 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:57:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 38046 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 14:57:14 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231145714.38045.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.7 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 06:57:14 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.7] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Greenhouses in hurricane zones Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:57:14 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1105 Sorry, I located intentionally in a non-hurricane non-tornado non-riot non-earthquake region. Yes, everybody heard of Corning in the Flood of 1972 but I'm on top of the hill. Blizzards are just good practice for Y2K. Dori Green >From: "Elizabeth Pike" >To: >Subject: Greenhouses in hurricane zones >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:29:07 -0500 > > > I see alot of the tobacco greenhouses sitting around now, no longer >needed, and wonder about picking up one cheap, but then wonder "what" may >have penetrated the materials, and if they're feasible to move. I know >they've stood the test of our hurricanes. Has anyone had any experience >with greenhouses in the hurricane regions of the US? > >Liz Pike >Morningstar Gardens >North Carolina ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 10:34:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10081 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA07339; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:33:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05581 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:06:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.32] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A60D46025C; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:04:45 -0500 Message-ID: <005401bf53a0$ec423d20$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Dori Green" , References: <19991231144849.71483.qmail@hotmail.com> Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:08:39 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1106 Well, I'm sure after doing it for a few years, Dori, you no longer need to keep such records : )! But it really does help to have those ball park figures for us newbies. I need to know how close or off base I am. And I thank everyone who has responded! I've learned alot! Thanks! Liz Pike ----- Original Message ----- From: Dori Green To: Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft > I used to figure things out in such detail and keep careful records of same. > > But I'm much better now, thanks. > > > > Just stretching your bunjie, Liz. Gods and goddesses bless anybody who can > be so meticulous! I'm busy enough working the two off-farm jobs and keeping > the goats and chickens fed and the weeds kinda sorta ripped away from the > crops. > > In all seriousness, I quit trying to keep such meticulous records because > there was such a variation in the data -- how much rainfall, when, what were > the day and night temps and how much difference between the two, were the > deer hungry or not, was the help reliable and conscientious and capable > (y'all know how much work I ever got out of the $6-per-hour kid from the > Youth Center who was in Special Ed because of his ADHD). > > This is part of why I don't think farming ever could be accurately subjected > to the kind of systems analysis that industry employs. As a database > designer and systems analyst/technical writer, I can tell you for sure that > those danged variables will getcha every time! > > Dori Green > > > >From: "Elizabeth Pike" > >To: > >Subject: Shares per sq ft > >Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 16:20:42 -0500 > > > >Okay, so now I know how many cracks are in my bedroom ceiling. I've come > >up with some questions-true to a CSA list-each in it's own email so as not > >to be confusing, and easier for me to file & locate later! > > > >Has an analysis been done to estimate how many sq ft it takes to supply a > >share for 1 season/year? Also, how much labor is required to supply 1 > >share/5 shares/10 shares, etc before needing off-farm help? I understand > >this varies depending on your region, growing & cultural practices, & that > >share amounts vary from week to week. I just want rough estimates. > > > >Liz Pike > >Morningstar Gardens > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 10:46:32 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10190 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA08497; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:45:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05718 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:08:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.32] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A67D49025C; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:06:37 -0500 Message-ID: <006b01bf53a1$2f3e10e0$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: , References: <0.c601cdc3.259d8511@aol.com> Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:10:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1107 Great figures-very helpful-thank you so much!! Liz Pike Morningstar Garden ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 11:03 PM Subject: Re: Shares per sq ft > I have been doing a membership garden for 5 years. I grow the typical > assortment. In my mix are the land hogs that my customers demand - sweet > corn, potatoes and melons. I approach the sq ft question by estimating the > number of plants or feet of row for each item required per family i.e. 1.25 > tomato plants, .25 squash, .5 pepper, etc. I keep all this on a spreadsheet. > After I total everything, I take that data and map out everything using my > Sprout program. I can grow enough produce on 1 acre for 40 families easily. > That works out to about 1000 sq ft per family (with the corn and melons). I > could cut that down to about 450 square feet if I deleted corn, melons and > potatoes. > > My members are on a 16 week schedule. I spend 9 hours per week during the > harvest/delivery weeks. 15 families per 1 person is all I can handle on my > 8:30 to 11:00/ 3 days per week schedule. I keep up until about August when > the produce harvest is all I can keep up with and the weeds are growing 3 > inches an hour. > > I charge my members $20 per week or $15 per week depending on their order > size. I do not pack all boxes the same. Members complete an order form from > which I refer to each week. This personal touch takes a bit more time. They > pay a $25 membership fee. > > Hope this helps! > SAC > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 11:32:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10531 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA11532; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:31:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from curly.excite.com ([199.172.153.144]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10795 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:19:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <19991231161534.KMTU3146.kuku.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:15:34 -0800 Message-ID: <19950118.946656934481.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:15:32 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: well, we are certified too Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.178 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1108 We have been certified for 5 years now because in the state of Ohio it is the law. Ity has not been an easy road getting certified and keeping the land that way. we have had most of the farm de-certified because we applied cotton seed meal to our land (about 12lbs over an acre) that we were assured was organic by the shop owner (and certified market gardener) who sold it to us. It was not though the guy still advertises the stuff as organic (I guess it is as it is a carbon based thing...). So the best organic soil we have is not certifed and won't be again until 2001. It is a head ache to have land in various states of transition and certifacation but we have a system that works for us but it is complicated and messy (just like life) We have maintain the certifacation because we do some wholesaling and sell in 2 different states. I also feel it is important for customers to have access to certified produce as has been mentioned a lot of folks use the term to sell their wares without any understanding of what organic really is and the consumer often cannot tell thye difference and doesn't know what questions to ask. We teach our customers what certifacation means every chance we get. We talk to the other growers at the market and educate them on what organic is. They used to think we were fly by night dillatantes but now respect us because we sell more than most of them, have the prettiest stand with the greatest diversity (actually there is an old guy who shows veggies and can out do us on the diversity thing) and we work hard to promote the market so all will profit. The CSA members have also said that certifacation is important but than again they consider all our produce organic no matter what we tell them. The cotton seed meal incident was ignored by all and they went right calling the decertified veggies organic. Certifacation is the price of doing bussiness, without it the consumer cannot be assured round up wasn't used or anhydrous ammonia. true anyone can cheat, that's life. Generally, though the cheaters are found out. Remember it is not only the inspector that checks us out it is also the public and you never know who might see something and report it. I know I have in the past and there are now 2 Amish families that have "Biologically" grown food, not organic in our area. The process of getting certified was a huge education for us. In the beginning we had broom grass and weeds and low yeilds. we didn't know what an input was or which ones we could use (we did know sevin, etc. were big no nos) we didn't know about soil building and the million other aspects of going organic. We just knew it was what we wanted to do. We have learned a lot over the years and it wouldn't have happened with out the paper. Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 31 11:35:12 1999 Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10550 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive02p.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.0.89]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25043; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:35:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601bf53c6$36791c40$1302f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , , , Cc: , References: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Subject: Re: Certification proves zip Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:34:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1109 >Linda wrote: and farmers. This is often time consuming and inconvenient for us, but we > feel it is one of the best investments we can make! > On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this > year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce > without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long > term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do > not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce > as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to > educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. The above type of situation is something we are discussing. For CSA only cert. is for us unnecessary. But to expand into farm stand or selling to restaurants (all speculation at this point) we'd need to be cert. just to make business dealings easier less explaination purchasers getting good product etc. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 11:43:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10615 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA12409; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:43:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11588 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:31:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.32] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A9F8C60222; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:29:44 -0500 Message-ID: <000a01bf53ac$caa737e0$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Fw: Catnip Farm's Christmas Letter - via Liz! Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:33:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1110 ----- Original Message ----- From: Rich & Ericka Dana To: Liz Pike - Morningstar Gardens Sent: Friday, December 31, 1999 1:11 PM Subject: Catnip Farm's Christmas Letter - via Liz! Hay CSA-L - thanks to Liz for offering to put this up for me - for some reason the CSA-L only GIVES me posts, won't let me post anymore. So I can only write personal notes or send something to a pal to forward for me. Anyway, Liz's question about packing/handling made me think that you all might like to read our Christmas letter - my packing life has improved greatly as you will read... and the rest of our farm news might be of interest too. (I figure I owe you all some info. - having been an unintentional lurker lately because of this technical trouble...!). Happy New Year Everyone! Ericka ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ Yes, this is the cheap and easy version.... BECAUSE - it is now too late to make or buy cards and stamps and send them with a xeroxed letter inside. You know we live 50 miles from any copy shop and the roads are iced-over as I write, so.... OK? Dear Friends and Family, Dec. 18th Christmas 1999 Firstly, we must apologize for being SO out of touch for the past few years - since we moved here, basically. It's been rough - one thing after another - getting settled, established and fortified has taken more minutes than we've had and I'm sure this won't change too much for awhile longer. Before I forget, let me touch on the communication topic - we've finally upgraded from 3 old and hand-me-down clunker computers to a new iMac. I'm still on Windows 3.1 - I'm slow. Rich is on the new one - learning how to make webpages. AND.... drumroll, please!..... http://www.catnipfarm.com..... is OURS (registered domain) and coming to your monitor soon! (We have a wee page up right now at http://www.netins.net/showcase/erwoodwork/) OK - what did we do this year? Drove ourselves nuts with work and overcommitment.... I quit smoking April 1st - thus losing my most effective painkiller (nicotine) - stilll having a really hard time living with my illness. (Fibro/CFIDS- 10 yrs.). Catnip Farm Organic had a 20 family Community Supported Agriculture program this year (weekly deliveries), and we added cut flowers to our repertoire. We had some hired help for a short time, but the work was too hard and they quit, one after the other. Rich was the "market guy" - I loaded him up and sent him off to the Iowa City Farmers' Market every Wed.from May - Oct. and he set up the booth and sold the stuff and brought home the $. It was a helluva season - early, prolonged record-high temperatures, no rain for months (I dragged hoses after dark for weeks to keep stuff alive - we used over 100,000 gals. of water from July to Sept.), and we had hordes of insects - lots of every kind, and many we've never seen here before - and they killed lots of stuff (some things I replanted 6-8 times), and damaged lots more... aaaagh. Not fun. Early this spring we planted 30 patented fast-growing "Austrees" - a gift that we hope to give our farm every year to increase our windbreak and herbicide drift protection. I also did a little "internetworking" and found out there were no drift protection signs for sale, so I designed two versions (one 'kinder & gentler', one 'getting medieval'), took orders, and had a few hundred printed. So now organic farms all over the country are sporting our signs. We're not in the sign business, but this way we could get the price down enough to afford them for ourselves. (Our property is T-shaped - we have a lot of border, and 3 different adjoining chemical farms as neighbors.) We raised a dozen new Aracauna hens to replace the ones we'd lost to natural causes/predators over the years... and now they've started to lay - more blue and green eggs - and we got a couple more "poofhead" chickens, just for fun. Unfortunately, 3 of the 4 are roosters - lots of noise, fighting, and no eggs, but they are AWESOME to look at. The flock is still about 40 total. Rich also expanded the apiary this year, increasing the number of beehives to seven, and adding honey to the list of regular Catnip Farm products. And after CSA deliveries and market ended in October, the Catnip Farm focus shifted to restaurant wholesale and winter egg CSA program - I made my last vegetable deliveries YESTERDAY to 3 restaurants. And we've had plenty of single-digit temperatures recently - the ground is snow-covered, but my season-extension inventions/trials seem to be going alright. This past July Rich celebrated his first year anniversary as a self-employed cabinetmaker in Iowa - running his new company "English River Woodworking". Business was steady, starting in January with the opening of 'The Java House' in Iowa City, a coffee house featuring Mission style ERW woodwork throughout. The usual remodels and renovations have been paying most of the bills while the number of custom cabinetry jobs and furniture projects has continued to increase. In his "spare time" (ha) he renovated our summer kitchen - a small building right next to our house - which has made my work SO much more efficient. It has lots of shelves, a big counter and table, refrigerator, electric stove, double deep stainless sink, ceiling fan, track lights, new (more) windows, roof, stainless steel chimney and 6 skylights - all making being in the produce business a lot easier. We got most of the new (old) stuff free - donated or salvaged. I can do post-harvest handling, sorting, washing, packing and storage, and we use it for canning, home brewing, seed saving, herb-drying, vegetable dehydrating - everything! I keep my CSA "office" stuff and gardening library in there, too - all it lacks is phone and computer (probably a good thing, otherwise I'd live in there). It has a little woodstove for heat in winter and in the back a storage room for garden tools with a sleeping/storage loft above. It can function as our primary kitchen this when we start remodeling the kitchen in the house. (HELP!) What else...? Our kitty family/feral feline rescue continues as usual and we thank our lucky stars that we've had no serious illnesses or tragedies for over a year. The kids we live with and love to love are Blackie, Spooky, Bongo, Smiley, Mama, Peaches, Fakita, Bud Bud, Whitey, Rufus, Big Fat three-toed Sam, Tiglet, Gus, Jimmy, Cackers, Corny Jr., Winky, Mrs. Snoo, Bob Bear and Punkin' Patch. We are happy to have found a wonderful home for Fred Jr., a recent rescue, and also to have taken care of a black kitty named Charles who went on his wild way tested, neutered and vaccinated. We did have two strays - Orange Plus and Fred Senior - who were FLV/FIV positive and symptomatic, and are now buried under the apple trees. A tiger boy and a pale orange girl are also buried there - roadkill put to rest. You've probably guessed that I've been pretty active recently fighting the biotech industries' interests in world domination via the food (and now water & wood) supply. I testified before the FDA as a consumer and an organic farmer (AGAINST genetically engineered food & FOR safety-testing and labeling) last month - you can read my testimony in the Federal Register on-line - Nov. 18, 1999 FDA hearing - (scroll WAY down, because I was speaker #76 - near the very end). Although I'm pretty well-versed in the science and the social/environmental/political ramifications by now, my gut feeling about the whole deal is - you just DON'T MESS WITH MOTHER NATURE - she's way bigger than any of us; I (WE) can personally attest to that. On a lighter note, we did manage to don some worn (getting crispy!) black leather a couple of times and haul our tired old asses into town to see Junior Brown last spring, Jello B. and Exene on tour w/the SpitFire deal (we talked), L-7 and Man or Astroman in October. And that swell chick Belinda produced the "Wildgirl Tribute-o-Rama" on WFMU June 5th - collected up the old gang and put them on the air to reminisce, played the Rockin' tunes AND had me on live from Iowa. (Rich ran the chainsaw for background sound effects.) He's been back to martial arts study, continuing with Jeet Kun Do (an East/West fighting style developed by Bruce Lee) and will be traveling with his teacher to Minneapolis for special instruction with Dan Inosanto, Bruce Lee's student and collaborator this February. And racefans - the Drag Racing Underground website/forum - http://www.dragracingunderground.com - most highly recommended by yours truly. Oh - and watch for a new book "Driving Me Wild" - I'm in there! Leah K. wrote it. So, from us to you, HAPPY HOLIDAYS and remember, the most important things to have in your Y2K supply bin (besides candles and matches) are BEER & AMMO. And plenty of 'em. with love and best wishes for 2000, Rich, Ericka and furkids Catnip Farm, From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 11:56:26 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10703 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13265; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:54:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11923 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 10:35:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive02p.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.0.89]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25043; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:35:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005601bf53c6$36791c40$1302f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , , , Cc: , References: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Subject: Re: Certification proves zip Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:34:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1111 >Linda wrote: and farmers. This is often time consuming and inconvenient for us, but we > feel it is one of the best investments we can make! > On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this > year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce > without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long > term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do > not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce > as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to > educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. The above type of situation is something we are discussing. For CSA only cert. is for us unnecessary. But to expand into farm stand or selling to restaurants (all speculation at this point) we'd need to be cert. just to make business dealings easier less explaination purchasers getting good product etc. Beth From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 12:13:28 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA10923 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA14476; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:11:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from fortune.excite.com (fortune-rwcmta.excite.com [198.3.99.203]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13554 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:00:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from chilly.excite.com ([199.172.153.77]) by kuku.excite.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <19991231165843.KULV3146.kuku.excite.com@chilly.excite.com> for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:58:43 -0800 Message-ID: <23921552.946659523542.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:58:42 -0800 (PST) From: Lucy Goodman-Owsley Reply-To: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: washrack/packing shed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Excite Inbox X-Sender-Ip: 216.28.55.204 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1112 > > > We have an old huge sink (ceramic) under a pear tree to wash and cool the > crops. I also use the kitchen if it is cold or wet (no roof on the packing > "shed". We have a fridge in the house for eggs and produce and a big deli > sized glass front reach in on the side porch under a roof. We also have a > freezer for meat and cider. We have 2 out small buildings that are stuffed > full of our crap-tillers (one has to live out side on a skid under a tarp > due to lack of space), row cover, plastic mulch, straw mulch, hoes, shovels, > baskets, bread racks, a forge, lumber etc., etc.. Some day either we will > move to a new farm with actual barns or we will come up with a plan to > actually get a new pole barn built here. We don't want to invest 10 grand in > a barn and than move a few years later leaving the barn, we like our > landlords but not that much. > Right now we are building a simple hoop house and this type of structure has > possibilities to be converted into many uses such as storage or a real > packing shed. It is so simple and cheap to put up and could be covered with > material appropriate to the task (Plastic would not due for a packing shed > in July unless Saunas are your thing baby.) > Lucy Goodman-Owsley Boulder Belt CSA New Paris, OH Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 Want Social Change? Join a CSA! _______________________________________________________ Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 12:49:34 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01411 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA17080; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:48:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16275 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 11:36:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-114.premier1.net [207.149.54.114]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id JAA05228; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:29:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <006201bf53ae$0ba5e6a0$a73695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Elizabeth Pike" Cc: References: <002101bf530c$0a3f5960$02000003@default> Subject: Re: Wash/pack house Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 08:31:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5369.7F4282C0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1113 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5369.7F4282C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Elizabeth Pike=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 1:22 PM Subject: Wash/pack house =20 Saw horses and planks on a cement slab (so our feet don't get muddy = and we slip and fall) under a large maple tree, trash cans for cool = down, coming this year a salad spinner made out of an old Kenmore = washer. Also coming this year is a cooler. We've always made do = without but I'm getting old and don't want to work so hard on harvest = days. This year we lost some food because we had so much we had to pick = a day ahead and the weather wasn't co-operative. In our area, we don't = have to worry too much about heat as in other parts of the country. On = the wish list is larger tubs,a covering to keep the rain off. I like = the sawhorses because we can take everything down. I use the same area = for harvesting chickens. Packing tables come down. The cement slab = makes for easy clean up. And yes, I am VERY careful transferring one = operation to the other. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA What kind of facilities do you have for preping your produce such as a = wash/pack house? (And I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered before. = I read through the archives, and don't remember.) =20 Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5369.7F4282C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Elizabeth=20 Pike
    Sent: Thursday, December 30, = 1999 1:22=20 PM
    Subject: Wash/pack house
     
    Saw horses and planks on a cement = slab (so our=20 feet don't get muddy and we slip and fall) under a large maple tree, = trash=20 cans for cool down, coming this year a salad spinner made out of an = old=20 Kenmore washer.  Also coming this year is a cooler.  We've = always=20 made do without but I'm getting old and don't want to work so hard on = harvest=20 days.  This year we lost some food because we had so much we had = to pick=20 a day ahead and the weather wasn't co-operative.  In our area, we = don't=20 have to worry too much about heat as in other parts of the = country.  On=20 the wish list is larger tubs,a covering to keep the rain off.  I = like the=20 sawhorses because we can take everything down.  I use the same = area for=20 harvesting chickens.  Packing tables come down.  The cement = slab=20 makes for easy clean up.  And yes, I am VERY careful transferring = one=20 operation to the other.
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing Things
    Carnation WA
    What kind of facilities do you have for preping your produce such = as a=20 wash/pack house?  (And I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered=20 before.  I read through the archives, and don't remember.)
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Gardens
    ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BF5369.7F4282C0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 13:32:40 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA01970 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA19781; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:30:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19208 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:19:28 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.59da426a (4588) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:18:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.59da426a.259e4d8b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:18:51 EST Subject: Re: Certification: To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1114 Happy New Year List, About certification, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein. The decision to certify must be based on local laws, the farm's markets and the customer's expectations. Certification is a good idea but it is also an expense. The cost\benefit ratio is my guide. Although I am certifiably (organic and crazy) I am not certified. State law forbids us from using the word "organic" in our print advertising. But there is no such prohibition on our freedom of speach. Since we have only direct markets it works for us not to certify. But some people lump us in with those who just used a little miracle grow etc. and those sales are justifiably lost. While our demand remains higher than our supply and we continue to receive a premium for our products we can afford to loose those sales. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 13:43:50 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02563 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA20446; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:41:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19209 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:19:28 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.ef34baab (4588) for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:18:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.ef34baab.259e4d8d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:18:53 EST Subject: Re: Wash/pack house To: csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1115 We pick flowers the evening before the CSA pickup days and stick them in cold clean water. Get up early and get everything out of the field by 9:30. We "field wash" everything twice to cool the produce quickly in recycled bath tubs on the shady side of the pole barn. This also drowns most of the slugs and flea beetles hitch hiking on the produce. The tubs are up on pedestals to be able to work at waist level and save our precious backs. Cooled produce is either stored in huge igloo coolers with ice bottles and terri cloth towels on the bottom or placed in pack boxes with lids and piled into two recycled refrigerators in the "seed room" of the barn. We bring crated produce in from the field in radio flyer wagons, wheel barrows, and a trailer that connects to an old BCS mule. The barn is adjacent to the gardens. The pole barn is 20 X 32 ft. 1\ 3rd of it is finished into a "seed room" where we have rows of growing shelves and lights for starting plugs. It is also where the refers are located and has it's own locking door to the parking area. Baskets of produce are placed out on tables in the seed room for subscribers to choose from. We have subscribers choose 8 or so units from 10 or 12 choices. We keep replenishing the baskets from the refers and coolers as the day wears on. The fruits and culinary herbs are U-pick for subscribers. It cuts down on waste. Gives the subscribers a farm experience and saves a lot of my labor. Plus they are not as heat sensitive as the vegetables. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 13:55:01 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA02696 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21124; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:52:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.65]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19432 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:24:50 -0600 (CST) From: STannehill@aol.com Received: from STannehill@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id i.0.12a8e5a0 (3315); Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.12a8e5a0.259e4ecd@aol.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:24:13 EST Subject: Re: Wrestling Goats To: dorigreen00@hotmail.com, pike@always-online.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1116 Ah, video tapes of goat wrestling. Marketed properly they could get Dori a new whatever she wants (probably not a MAzda Miata!!) see you could use the kid label and the words down and dirty and it should sell like National Inquirer.... was that the face of Satan looming over Washington DC last week? Happy New Year....Millenium or not here we come! This is the century that none of us will live to see the end of (assuming no one lives past 114 and we are all over 14!) Cheers Sue From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 14:09:31 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA02826 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA22293; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:08:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from rmx01.mail.com (rmx01.mail.com [165.251.32.149]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA19542 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 12:26:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from web12.mail.com (web12.pub01.mail.com [165.251.32.22]) by rmx01.mail.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA06476 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:26:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <384534502.946664807635.JavaMail.root@web12.mail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:26:47 -0500 (EST) From: Dan James To: CSA list Subject: RE: Lumbered raised beds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: mail.com X-Originating-IP: 209.136.3.15 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1117 This has probably been answered, I'm way behind on my emails Check with local (if any) lumber yards about the scrap sides of the logs that are left over from squaring up the lumber. They are either burned as scrap or chipped up for shipment to a paper mill or power plant. May even get the yard to donate them especially if you're a Non-profit. Aside from that, rough cut lumber would be cheaper than finished. Whichever, don't use anything wider than six inches, it'll warp less. You can stack them to get the depth you need. dan ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com From london@metalab.unc.edu Fri Dec 31 15:03:46 1999 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03195; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26526; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com cc: CommonGro@aol.com, pike@always-online.com, bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification proves zip In-Reply-To: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1118 On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 HMSTDFRMS@aol.com wrote: > On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this > year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce > without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long > term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do > not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce > as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to > educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. What's wrong with a labeling structure that offers farmer-verified- organic/clean/natural/biointensive/whatever using Eliot Coleman's suggestion and Certified Organic at the top of the list, uncertified organic next followed by conventional last. All else falls into its own niche. This should tell discerning, educated, experienced and inexperienced customers all they need to know; shouldn't take anyone long to adjust to this system. <> This quote is from Eliot Coleman't book "The NEW ORGANIC GROWER": "One of the intangible legacies the Shakers left to the world is their demonstration that it is possible for man to create the environment and the way of life he wants, _if he wants it enough_. _Man_ can _choose_. The Shakers were practical idealists. They did not dream vaguely of conditions they would like to see realized; they went to work to make these conditions an actuality. They wasted no time in raging against competitive society, or in complaining bitterly that they had no power to change it; instead they built a domain of their own, where they could arrange their lives to their liking" - Marguerite Fellows Melcher THE SHAKER VENTURE <> When conventional producers are forced to label their products "conventionaly-grown with chemical fertilizers and pesticides", then and only then would it be a fair trade-off for organic growers to similarly abide by laws requiring that they be certified according to national organic standards in order to use organic labelling on their products. Until then there are many useful and legitimate options for natural farmers, certified or not, to use to maximize the profit-making potential of this growing industry <> Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood, Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised. <> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 15:16:30 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03290 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25465; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:15:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24973 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 14:03:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03195; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26526; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:03:45 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: HMSTDFRMS@aol.com cc: CommonGro@aol.com, pike@always-online.com, bhfarm@accel.net, CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification proves zip In-Reply-To: <0.bcc74114.259e0bfc@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1119 On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 HMSTDFRMS@aol.com wrote: > On the other hand, as we make preparations to join a new farmers' market this > year, we are seriously questioning our ability to sell our organic produce > without certification. We simply have not had the opportunity to build a long > term relationship with those folks. And yes, there are many farmers who do > not understand organic methods, and therefore simply market unsprayed produce > as organic. This is not only misleading to the customer, but does not help to > educate them on the benefits of using organic produce. What's wrong with a labeling structure that offers farmer-verified- organic/clean/natural/biointensive/whatever using Eliot Coleman's suggestion and Certified Organic at the top of the list, uncertified organic next followed by conventional last. All else falls into its own niche. This should tell discerning, educated, experienced and inexperienced customers all they need to know; shouldn't take anyone long to adjust to this system. <> This quote is from Eliot Coleman't book "The NEW ORGANIC GROWER": "One of the intangible legacies the Shakers left to the world is their demonstration that it is possible for man to create the environment and the way of life he wants, _if he wants it enough_. _Man_ can _choose_. The Shakers were practical idealists. They did not dream vaguely of conditions they would like to see realized; they went to work to make these conditions an actuality. They wasted no time in raging against competitive society, or in complaining bitterly that they had no power to change it; instead they built a domain of their own, where they could arrange their lives to their liking" - Marguerite Fellows Melcher THE SHAKER VENTURE <> When conventional producers are forced to label their products "conventionaly-grown with chemical fertilizers and pesticides", then and only then would it be a fair trade-off for organic growers to similarly abide by laws requiring that they be certified according to national organic standards in order to use organic labelling on their products. Until then there are many useful and legitimate options for natural farmers, certified or not, to use to maximize the profit-making potential of this growing industry <> Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood, Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised. <> Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 16:57:21 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03829 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA01034; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:52:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f76.hotmail.com [216.32.181.76]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA00492 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 15:46:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 13286 invoked by uid 0); 31 Dec 1999 21:46:21 -0000 Message-ID: <19991231214621.13285.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.13 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 13:46:21 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.13] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Wrestling Goats Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:46:21 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1120 Sue (STannehill@aol.com) wrote: .... was that the face of Satan looming over Washington DC last week? I saw that headline at the checkout line yesterday and my reaction was "What, again?" I have some firewood, a month's supply of food for me and all of the animals, enough open-pollinated seed to plant all six acres for two years in a wide diversity of crops, a small shovel plow that can be pulled by a team of goats or a couple of hefty teenagers, a clean pond next door (spring fed), less than two miles away a spring that bubbles out of the hillside that runs year-round and didn't dry up in this year's drought, two tractor trailer loads of finished certified weed-free compost, 3,000 bags of leaves, and a lot of optimism. In 1993 the power was out for six days and the snow drifted 12 feet deep between the house and the barn. Since then this is how I enter EVERY January! Dori Green Now, where did I put that bottle of homemade Blackberry Merlot? Happy New Year (almost), everybody! PS -- I expect the goats to be on their toesies tonight so I won't be doing any wrestling, just our regular hugs and drumming. I should explain that one -- the only time they go to the butcher is if they have a mortal accident or develop a urinary blockage. I don't spend $500 in maybe-it'll-work surgery on a $50 goat. Would if I had it, but I don't. This has happened only once in five years. If they _do_ end up there, they go into the freezer and their hide gets made into a drum. Goats like becoming drums, though not before their time. They greatly enjoy being soundly thumped along the ribs and rumen, and they each have a distinctively different drumming song. So now you know. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 17:12:22 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03904 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01888; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:07:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01616 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:01:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive09a.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.1.42]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11394; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:01:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003301bf53f4$165d4480$2a01f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: , References: <23921552.946659523542.JavaMail.imail@chilly.excite.com> Subject: Re: washrack/packing shed Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:03:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1121 Lucy, and list, A barn idea: Where my son takes riding lessons the woman rents her farm. She basically knows she may be evicted at any moment, it is amazing (thanks to a few wet lands) that it has not been sold to houses already. She put up a kit barn. It is a real company (I don't remember official name), might be able to find on internet. The frame is made of metal pipes that fit together. . She sheathed it in any old plywood, at roof line with that plastic clear panels.Roof I suppose its metal. Inside four box horse stalls actually very cozy. It can all be taken apart , remember what pipe goes where! and reassembled elsewhere. Cost? We are planning on building a real barn we are lost as to plan, got to get some barn plans. I thought winter would be a vacation.........Well then I decided to ripe my kitchen up. Been saving for years, just got embarrassed with all those members walking through to use the bathroom (redone within a year or two) Beth barns or we will come up with a plan to > > actually get a new pole barn built here. We don't want to invest 10 grand > in > > a barn and than move a few years later leaving the barn, we like our > > landlords but not that much. > > Right now we are building a simple hoop house and this type of structure > has > > possibilities to be converted into many uses such as storage or a real > > packing shed. It is so simple and cheap to put up and could be covered > with > > material appropriate to the task (Plastic would not due for a packing > shed > > in July unless Saunas are your thing baby.) > > > > > > Lucy Goodman-Owsley > Boulder Belt CSA > New Paris, OH > Website: http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/boulderbeltcsa > Organic Farming and Gardening Forum: > http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb135705 > Want Social Change? Join a CSA! > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Visit Excite Shopping at http://shopping.excite.com > The fastest way to find your Holiday gift this season > From guldann@ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 31 17:16:09 1999 Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03925 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive09a.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.1.42]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05200; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:16:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004701bf53f6$137a36e0$2a01f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." , Cc: , , , References: Subject: Re: Certification proves zip Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:18:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1122 Lawrence wrote: Good post by the way. One of your lines brings up a question. Yesterday we took a busman's holiday and went looking at farms. My husband is a teacher, a former student now about 25-6 and married and very into organic farming (his parents joined our CSA) was interested in seeing local farms so went went looking. (Wish they weren't off to work in France, but thats another story). On one of the farms (a non- profit educational farm) they sell meat and eggs from a self serve refridge. Sign on fridge said meat / chickens were raised without chemicals and feed natural food. Matt the young man with us said what is natural food? I said I don't know. Does anyone? It is unlikely we will every raise our critters organically but I'd like to raise them as close as possible, so what is natural food? Beth > When conventional producers are forced to label their products > "conventionaly-grown with chemical fertilizers and pesticides", then and > only then would it be a fair trade-off for organic growers to similarly > abide by laws requiring that they be certified according to national > organic standards in order to use organic labelling on their products. > Until then there are many useful and legitimate options for natural > farmers, certified or not, to use to maximize the profit-making potential > of this growing industry > <> > Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: > Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, > Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood, > Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced > without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, > raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or > growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, > ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised. > <> > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 17:26:23 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03973 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02610; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:22:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (smtp7.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.128.51]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA02297 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:16:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive09a.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.1.42]) by smtp7.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05200; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:16:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004701bf53f6$137a36e0$2a01f7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." , Cc: , , , References: Subject: Re: Certification proves zip Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:18:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1123 Lawrence wrote: Good post by the way. One of your lines brings up a question. Yesterday we took a busman's holiday and went looking at farms. My husband is a teacher, a former student now about 25-6 and married and very into organic farming (his parents joined our CSA) was interested in seeing local farms so went went looking. (Wish they weren't off to work in France, but thats another story). On one of the farms (a non- profit educational farm) they sell meat and eggs from a self serve refridge. Sign on fridge said meat / chickens were raised without chemicals and feed natural food. Matt the young man with us said what is natural food? I said I don't know. Does anyone? It is unlikely we will every raise our critters organically but I'd like to raise them as close as possible, so what is natural food? Beth > When conventional producers are forced to label their products > "conventionaly-grown with chemical fertilizers and pesticides", then and > only then would it be a fair trade-off for organic growers to similarly > abide by laws requiring that they be certified according to national > organic standards in order to use organic labelling on their products. > Until then there are many useful and legitimate options for natural > farmers, certified or not, to use to maximize the profit-making potential > of this growing industry > <> > Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: > Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, > Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood, > Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced > without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, > raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or > growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, > ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised. > <> > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm > http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden > /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech > lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu > > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 17:49:55 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04127 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03990; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:45:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03659 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:39:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.168] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A01B49F9003E; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:37:15 -0500 Message-ID: <001101bf53e0$21deea20$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: Satan Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:41:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF53B6.3837D680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1124 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF53B6.3837D680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sue (STannehill@aol.com) wrote: .... was that the face of Satan looming over Washington DC last week? I thought he was in the White House (heehee!). Liz Pike =20 ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF53B6.3837D680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Sue (STannehill@aol.com)=20 wrote:

    .... was that the face of Satan looming over Washington DC = last=20 week?


    I thought he was in the White House (heehee!).
     
    Liz Pike
      ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01BF53B6.3837D680-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Fri Dec 31 17:55:37 1999 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04146 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA04320; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:51:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA03761 for ; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 16:42:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.168] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A0C74A02003E; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:40:07 -0500 Message-ID: <001c01bf53e0$888a2dc0$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Hook Family" , References: <004701bf53f6$137a36e0$2a01f7a5@guldann> Subject: Natural Food Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:44:00 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1125 That's why it would be nice to have a standard vocabulary we could all use! Liz Pike From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 01:32:03 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA06581 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 01:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA19482; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:27:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f207.hotmail.com [216.32.181.207]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id AAA19071 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:21:32 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 71682 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jan 2000 06:20:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20000101062057.71681.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.8 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 31 Dec 1999 22:20:57 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.8] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Barns Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 01:20:57 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1126 Everything built here from now on is "portable" -- on skids or able to be disassembled and moved -- for the simple reason that such structures won't disrupt our nice "vacant land" tax structure now applied to 15 of our 20 acres. Spending $300 at the time on purchase on having the two pieces surveyed as separate parcels has saved me about $3,000 annually on taxes, over the past ten years! One permanent structure on that land could lose me that benefit. The buildings don't ever have to move, but they must be moveable! Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 13:31:20 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09814 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA04371; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:26:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp2.supernet.com (IDENT:qmailr@smtp2.desupernet.net [204.249.184.45]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03983 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:19:48 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 8855 invoked from network); 1 Jan 2000 18:19:41 -0000 Received: from 188-179.pm4-1.chambersburg.desupernet.net (HELO mail.cvn.net) (208.170.188.179) by smtp2.supernet.com with SMTP; 1 Jan 2000 18:19:41 -0000 Message-ID: <386E461B.21F820F5@mail.cvn.net> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:23:24 -0500 From: Larry Strite X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SCook21809@aol.com CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification: References: <0.59da426a.259e4d8b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1127 .Hi . Hope you all had a great New Years party. Once again I must hark on the organic( I believe this is the right way to go but it does not tell the whole truth ) I am one that is very much into organic growing and will bash the chemical boys every chance I get. In all though I still insist that if you really have supreme fruit and veggies way not show the client AND TO DO THIS all you have to do is to use a refactormeter I have charts that list all the fruits and veggies there is and also a book written by REX HARRIEL.( Would strongly suggest that every grower buy the book ) that goes into detail on way this wonderful machine works SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > Happy New Year List, > > About certification, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not > everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein. The decision to > certify must be based on local laws, the farm's markets and the customer's > expectations. Certification is a good idea but it is also an expense. The > cost\benefit ratio is my guide. Although I am certifiably (organic and > crazy) I am not certified. State law forbids us from using the word > "organic" in our print advertising. But there is no such prohibition on our > freedom of speach. Since we have only direct markets it works for us not to > certify. But some people lump us in with those who just used a little > miracle grow etc. and those sales are justifiably lost. While our demand > remains higher than our supply and we continue to receive a premium for our > products we can afford to loose those sales. > > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 13:55:00 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09924 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05482; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:50:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05182 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:44:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from ucla.edu (we-24-130-48-163.we.mediaone.net [24.130.48.163]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13321; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 10:44:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <386E4A61.9219F3BB@ucla.edu> Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:41:37 -0800 From: greenman Organization: Just a teeny part of UCLA X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Strite CC: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification: References: <0.59da426a.259e4d8b@aol.com> <386E461B.21F820F5@mail.cvn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1128 Larry - It surely works for you and surely works for me. However, you don't need to sell your produce to me but to the general public. I think you tax yourself too greatly trying to explain the ramifications of this and that yes or no when simply having the label of "certified" offers your consumer enough assurance and enough information to be done with it. Obviously one way or the other there are pains involved... But, by my lights, the majority of the American consumers want the least information to make an "informed decision". I think, therefore, for "organic" to move into mainstream America, the question of certification is a foregone conclusion. David King Larry Strite wrote: > .Hi . Hope you all had a great New Years party. Once again I must hark on the > organic( I believe this is the right way to go but it does not tell the whole > truth ) I am one that is very much into organic growing and will bash the > chemical boys every chance I get. In all though I still insist that if you > really have supreme fruit and veggies way not show the client AND TO DO THIS all > you have to do is to use a refactormeter I have charts that list all the > fruits and veggies there is and also a book written by REX HARRIEL.( Would > strongly suggest that every grower buy the book ) that goes into detail on way > this wonderful machine works > > SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > > > Happy New Year List, > > > > About certification, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not > > everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein. The decision to > > certify must be based on local laws, the farm's markets and the customer's > > expectations. Certification is a good idea but it is also an expense. The > > cost\benefit ratio is my guide. Although I am certifiably (organic and > > crazy) I am not certified. State law forbids us from using the word > > "organic" in our print advertising. But there is no such prohibition on our > > freedom of speach. Since we have only direct markets it works for us not to > > certify. But some people lump us in with those who just used a little > > miracle grow etc. and those sales are justifiably lost. While our demand > > remains higher than our supply and we continue to receive a premium for our > > products we can afford to loose those sales. > > > > Art Biggert > > Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 14:07:00 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10039 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06096; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:02:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f300.hotmail.com [216.32.180.154]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA05840 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 12:57:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 97667 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jan 2000 18:56:29 -0000 Message-ID: <20000101185629.97666.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.6 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 10:56:29 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.6] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: New CSA Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:56:29 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1129 Advice you're wanting, is it? Heh, heh, heh.... You've come to the right place, Dahling! Snuggle up to a fuzzy blanket and a woodstove, a few seed catalogs and a cat or three. You'll fit right in here! Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm Now entering our 10th year at this CSA game.... >From: "Catherine & Matt" >To: >Subject: New CSA >Date: Sun, 21 Nov 1999 12:42:55 -0500 > >Hello out there. > >I am in Ontario and am in the planning stage of starting a CSA. I would >sure >appreciate any advice on getting started. > >Thanks, > >Catherine > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 15:09:57 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10292 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA08698; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:05:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA08418 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 13:59:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.113] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AC2BB9401CA; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 14:57:31 -0500 Message-ID: <002801bf5492$fd2e6da0$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: Subject: For Catherine & Matt Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:01:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF5469.13875A00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1130 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF5469.13875A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I, too am in the planning stages of a CSA. Take some time to go back = and read through the CSA-L archives--great stuff!! It took me 2 days & = a ton of copying & pasting! Happy New Year & have fun planning! Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens North Carolina ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF5469.13875A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    I, too am in the planning stages = of a=20 CSA.   Take some time to go back and read through the CSA-L=20 archives--great stuff!!  It took me 2 days & a ton of = copying=20 & pasting!  Happy New Year & have fun = planning!
     
    Liz Pike
    Morningstar Gardens
    North = Carolina
    ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01BF5469.13875A00-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 15:33:58 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10461 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09560; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:29:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09306 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:23:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.113] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id A1C52B01E4; Sat, 01 Jan 2000 15:21:25 -0500 Message-ID: <002f01bf5496$53e7f000$04000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: References: <0.59da426a.259e4d8b@aol.com> <386E461B.21F820F5@mail.cvn.net> <386E4A61.9219F3BB@ucla.edu> Subject: Certification Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:25:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1131 True about everything you say, David. But the certification process shouldn't be such a pain for the grower, or should I say, more like a punishment for wanting to do what's right for our lands, customers, health & ourselves. Wouldn't it be great to have a private, non-profit, national organization to oversee a certification process that rewards us-by being inexpensive, user friendly, and standardized for our customers to easily understand? My husband's restaurant is inspected by the county health department 4-6x a year. All states have similar program. He is given a grade of A, B, or C depending on the condition of the restaurant & a myriad of other factors. A standard form is used, and he's marked off for things not up to par, and given a "certificate" of his grade to display for his customers to see. (He always gets an A, btw.) Why can't we have a similar program for produce? Based on a myriad of tests, we could all earn grades of organic levels, and still be able to call our produce organic. These certificates would allow customers to know just what we mean by organic-A could be for those crops that are totally organic, B for those that are in transition, and C for chemically produced (actually chemically produced crops should show a grade of F!). I know this is an oversimplification of what has been discussed & argued in the past for years. I just know there must be a better way & I want to find it! Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens North Carolina ---- Original Message ----- From: greenman To: Larry Strite Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:41 PM Subject: Re: Certification: > Larry - > > It surely works for you and surely works for me. However, you don't need to sell > your produce to me but to the general public. I think you tax yourself too greatly > trying to explain the ramifications of this and that yes or no when simply having > the label of "certified" offers your consumer enough assurance and enough > information to be done with it. > > Obviously one way or the other there are pains involved... But, by my lights, the > majority of the American consumers want the least information to make an "informed > decision". I think, therefore, for "organic" to move into mainstream America, the > question of certification is a foregone conclusion. > > David King > > Larry Strite wrote: > > > .Hi . Hope you all had a great New Years party. Once again I must hark on the > > organic( I believe this is the right way to go but it does not tell the whole > > truth ) I am one that is very much into organic growing and will bash the > > chemical boys every chance I get. In all though I still insist that if you > > really have supreme fruit and veggies way not show the client AND TO DO THIS all > > you have to do is to use a refactormeter I have charts that list all the > > fruits and veggies there is and also a book written by REX ARRIEL.( Would > > strongly suggest that every grower buy the book ) that goes into detail on way > > this wonderful machine works > > > > SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Happy New Year List, > > > > > > About certification, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not > > > everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein. The decision to > > > certify must be based on local laws, the farm's markets and the customer's > > > expectations. Certification is a good idea but it is also an expense. The > > > cost\benefit ratio is my guide. Although I am certifiably (organic and > > > crazy) I am not certified. State law forbids us from using the word > > > "organic" in our print advertising. But there is no such prohibition on our > > > freedom of speach. Since we have only direct markets it works for us not to > > > certify. But some people lump us in with those who just used a little > > > miracle grow etc. and those sales are justifiably lost. While our demand > > > remains higher than our supply and we continue to receive a premium for our > > > products we can afford to loose those sales. > > > > > > Art Biggert > > > Ocean Sky Farm > > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 15:43:31 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10524 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA09871; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:39:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.6]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09464 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 14:27:38 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id d.0.fba345e2 (3924) for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:27:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.fba345e2.259fbd14@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:27:00 EST Subject: RE: Pest control: To: CSA-L@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1132 Help! Migrating Mallard ducks are eating all of the fava bean and austrian winter pea sprouts I planted as a cover crop. Does anyone know of a low impact deterrent to marauding mallards? I have had great luck hanging up road kill crows in my field to keep other crows from plucking the starts out of the beds. But I don't find many road kill ducks and don't feel the cost/benefit of shooting one is worth the experiment. The wind and rain we get in winter shreds green house plastic so a remay cover is out of the question. Any other ideas. Art Biggert Ocean Sky Farm From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 19:36:55 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11727 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 19:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA18818; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:32:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18523 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 18:26:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-168.premier1.net [207.149.54.168]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id QAA18256; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 16:19:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002101bf54b0$7c9ffbe0$a83695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Cc: References: <0.fba345e2.259fbd14@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pest control: Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 15:32:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1133 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Pest control: > Help! Migrating Mallard ducks are eating all of the fava bean and > austrian winter pea sprouts I planted as a cover crop. Does anyone know of a > low impact deterrent to marauding mallards? > I have had great luck hanging up road kill crows in my field to keep > other crows from plucking the starts out of the beds. But I don't find many > road kill ducks and don't feel the cost/benefit of shooting one is worth the > experiment. The wind and rain we get in winter shreds green house plastic so > a remay cover is out of the question. Any other ideas. > > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm > Art, We've had similar problems in the past and have found that remay is about the only thing that really works. Wind and rain does wreak havoc on some, but I've found it's not too bad. Soon all the ducks in Western Washington are going to know about your wonderful food. I've laid the remay down and secured it well with soil, which by now is heavy mud. If the soil is too friable (imagine that) to hold moisture I've used rocks, bricks, long 2x4s etc anything heavy or that will hold moisture and become heavier. For me it was worth the possible loss of the remay to discourage the ducks as once they know, they pass it on to their offspring. If you get the remay down fairly tight the wind doesn't pick it up as easily as when it is loosely over growing plants. The plants growth isn't too retarded. It usually takes a couple of weeks and they give up. Then the remay can come off. Of course unless you have a pond like we do, then it's a game between us all. I hate the idea of shooting them so I don't and they know it. I've thought of just planting something along the pond to feed them, buthaven't yet. Thankfully our ducks haven't arrived in force yet. But here's one for you. A few weeks ago in our last flood the fenceline for the neighboring dairy came down, the cows came over and discovered our chicken food, which was a couple of tons. Food everywhere, and while I was angry at the cows thankfully not too much in their bellies. Next to the shed where the chicken food is stored is our greenhouse where I now have about 150 pullets readying for spring lay. I decided to let them out each day and to finish what I couldn't salvage. A few days ago along comes a little bitty chicken hawk, just the right size to get these 3 month old pullets. We've been doing battle ever since, me trying to get those chicks to finish up the food in the shed, the hawk dodging me yelling at it to go away. Today it sat on top of a post and proceeded to dive bomb me shrieking furiously to get away from his chickens! Tomorrow they will stay in the green house! Try the remay, I haven't lost too much all in all and we get gusts up to 50mph regularly. Michaele Blakely Growing Things Carnation WA From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 21:20:24 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12156 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA23071; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:15:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22812 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:09:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12117; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26243; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:09:45 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:09:44 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Elizabeth Pike cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: Certification In-Reply-To: <002f01bf5496$53e7f000$04000003@default> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1134 On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Elizabeth Pike wrote: > True about everything you say, David. But the certification process > shouldn't be such a pain for the grower, or should I say, more like a > punishment for wanting to do what's right for our lands, customers, health & > ourselves. More "No Good Deed Will Go Unpunished". > Wouldn't it be great to have a private, non-profit, national organization to > oversee a certification process that rewards us-by being inexpensive, user > friendly, and standardized for our customers to easily understand? > <...> > Why can't we have a similar program for produce? Based on a myriad of > tests, we could all earn grades of organic levels, and still be able to call > our produce organic. These certificates would allow customers to know just Because there's no big buckolas (and fame and "being in the loop", positioning oneself on the ladder of success in that "industry" by priming the pump for grants 'n fees n' donations and I don't know what all) in it for those "enterprising" types that with sweaty palms get grabby as they carve out a career for themselves pushing paper and redtape, hiding behind bureaucracy, attempting to shape policy and law, if possible, to ensure their success and financial reward, without ever having to see a shovel, hoe or even any dirt or plants as they roll year after year over the backs of small farmers trying to do a good job and make an _honest_ living. But its still possible to do what you suggest, even ensure a good income for those dedicated people willing to implement such a sensible and progressive certification (or quality assurance and verification) system. The whole organization could be a co-op of some sort involving farmers and certifiers - this has reallly interesting possibilities. It could be called Common Ground. > what we mean by organic-A could be for those crops that are totally organic, > B for those that are in transition, and C for chemically produced (actually > chemically produced crops should show a grade of F!). > > I know this is an oversimplification of what has been discussed & argued in > the past for years. I just know there must be a better way & I want to find > it! > > Liz Pike > Morningstar Gardens > North Carolina > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: greenman > To: Larry Strite > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 1:41 PM > Subject: Re: Certification: > > > > Larry - > > > > It surely works for you and surely works for me. However, you don't need > to sell > > your produce to me but to the general public. I think you tax yourself > too greatly > > trying to explain the ramifications of this and that yes or no when simply > having > > the label of "certified" offers your consumer enough assurance and enough > > information to be done with it. > > > > Obviously one way or the other there are pains involved... But, by my > lights, the > > majority of the American consumers want the least information to make an > "informed > > decision". I think, therefore, for "organic" to move into mainstream > America, the > > question of certification is a foregone conclusion. > > > > David King > > > > Larry Strite wrote: > > > > > .Hi . Hope you all had a great New Years party. Once again I must hark > on the > > > organic( I believe this is the right way to go but it does not tell the > whole > > > truth ) I am one that is very much into organic growing and will bash > the > > > chemical boys every chance I get. In all though I still insist that if > you > > > really have supreme fruit and veggies way not show the client AND TO DO > THIS all > > > you have to do is to use a refactormeter I have charts that list all > the > > > fruits and veggies there is and also a book written by REX > ARRIEL.( Would > > > strongly suggest that every grower buy the book ) that goes into detail > on way > > > this wonderful machine works > > > > > > SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > Happy New Year List, > > > > > > > > About certification, "Not everything that can be counted counts, and > not > > > > everything that counts can be counted." Albert Einstein. The decision > to > > > > certify must be based on local laws, the farm's markets and the > customer's > > > > expectations. Certification is a good idea but it is also an expense. > The > > > > cost\benefit ratio is my guide. Although I am certifiably (organic > and > > > > crazy) I am not certified. State law forbids us from using the word > > > > "organic" in our print advertising. But there is no such prohibition > on our > > > > freedom of speach. Since we have only direct markets it works for us > not to > > > > certify. But some people lump us in with those who just used a little > > > > miracle grow etc. and those sales are justifiably lost. While our > demand > > > > remains higher than our supply and we continue to receive a premium > for our > > > > products we can afford to loose those sales. > > > > > > > > Art Biggert > > > > Ocean Sky Farm > > > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 21:27:25 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12192 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA23592; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:23:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23164 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:17:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12146; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26380; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:17:15 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:17:15 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: SCook21809@aol.com cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: RE: Pest control: In-Reply-To: <0.fba345e2.259fbd14@aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1135 On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 SCook21809@aol.com wrote: > Help! Migrating Mallard ducks are eating all of the fava bean and > austrian winter pea sprouts I planted as a cover crop. Does anyone know of a > low impact deterrent to marauding mallards? > I have had great luck hanging up road kill crows in my field to keep > other crows from plucking the starts out of the beds. But I don't find many > road kill ducks and don't feel the cost/benefit of shooting one is worth the > experiment. The wind and rain we get in winter shreds green house plastic so > a remay cover is out of the question. Any other ideas. > > Art Biggert > Ocean Sky Farm Build portable greenhouse halves out of spruce or cedar and Kalwall fiberglas glazing - put the halves together over the planted rows but leave a gap at the top for ventilation and rainfall. Would be sort of a roach motel for ducks - if they get in you can capture them to put in a pen & make layers out of them or tame them to do weed control. Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 21:38:09 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA12248 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA24386; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:33:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from imo-d08.mx.aol.com (imo-d08.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.40]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA23926 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:27:54 -0600 (CST) From: SCook21809@aol.com Received: from SCook21809@aol.com by imo-d08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v24.6.) id 7.0.12ad8071 (4403); Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:26:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <0.12ad8071.25a01165@aol.com> Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:26:45 EST Subject: Re: Pest control: Duckies To: doodles@netins.net, csa-l@prairienet.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 45 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1136 Thank you Ericka! I have used bird scare tape to keep the robins out of my blueberries. Its a mylar silver and red tape that shimmers and dances in the wind. I'll let you know how it works. Kind regards, Art From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 22:05:54 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA12424 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA25595; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:01:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from pws.gamewood.net (IDENT:root@pws.gamewood.net [199.0.155.48]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA25311 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:55:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from pavilion (ptsmx0326.gamewood.net [206.229.249.169]) by pws.gamewood.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10690 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:55:17 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01bf54cc$b2239080$a9f9e5ce@pavilion> From: "Amy and Eric Johnson" To: "CSA list" Subject: Certification proves zip Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:54:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF54A2.C6203D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1137 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF54A2.C6203D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This quote from Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm "Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood,=20 Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced=20 without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or=20 growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised." This is part of what led to the whole certified organic process! = Consumers were confused/misled by all these different terms and the = government (and others) stepped in to "regulate" it. Of course this led = to increased costs for producers, inefficiency, red tape, and more = middle men making money off these producers. Do we want the government = to regulate these terms also? Make no mistake, if we use these terms to = market with they will! Consumers are so removed from the food chain that = they cannot or are not motivated enough to learn what these terms mean. = There is no simple answer.=20 Please don't get irate with me, but becoming "certified organic" is a = marketing decision. If it is to one's benefit to become certified (ie: = you advertise as certified organic (or just organic I guess), can get a = better price for your certified organic product, or just want legally = label your methods as certified organic) then you should definately get = certified. There are many growers that are "organic" but just don't = certify as such because that is not the market they are after. There are = others that could be certified if they change a few of their methods; = and I'm not saying they use Sevin- maybe they use a product that has an = unapproved spreader/sticker agent, or are unable to keep good records- = and feel that to be certified would be too restrictive. I think all but = the very idealistic would admit that maybe there are some conventional = methods that are not BAD! in of themselves, if used in moderation after = reviewing other options. Of course they can't be certified organic. = There are those that think that to grow any other way but certified = organic is BAD!. I sometimes wonder if maybe there are some organic = practices that may be harmful in the long run, after all, we in the = organic community are just as human and fallible as those in the biotech = community. (one concern is that we can improve soil by adding compost- = but should all soils be "improved"? ) For myself, I'm just getting started in farming (on my own farm, have = several years of agricultural work) and if it were just up to the = individual states to regulate the certification process I would probably = get certified in my own state, but with federal regulation looming and = still no clear understanding of what changes that will make, I will not = get certified. My area has little demand for organics (though I expect = an increase in time), and the supply of produce here is lacking in = quality, and most people are just thrilled to find fresh, high quality = stuff regardless of the methods used to produce it. I hope to educate my = consumers little by little as to why my produce is better than that of = the conventional farmers (lots of flyers in the bags). Success of my = farm is most important to me- that success includes the ongoing health = of the soil and ecosystem, but the bottom line must come first in order = to continue to nurture that soil and ecosystem or I will be gone and = this land will be in tobacco or development so fast it would make your = head spin! Certification for me will not pay. Certainly I would like to = be able to use some standardized label for my growing methods (I prefer = "Sustainable") but not if it means the government bossing me around or = losing my property rights! =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF54A2.C6203D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    This quote from Lawrence F. = London,=20 Jr.  Venaura Farm
     
    "Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported=20 Agriculture:
    Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown,=20 Natural,
    Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, = Greenfood,=20
    Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced =
    without=20 synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers,
    raised = without=20 synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or
    growth = hormones or=20 stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics,
    ecologically = produced,=20 sustainably harvested, and humanely raised."

    This is part of what led to the whole certified = organic=20 process! Consumers were confused/misled by all these different terms and = the=20 government (and others) stepped in to "regulate" it. Of course this led = to=20 increased costs for producers, inefficiency, red tape, and more middle = men=20 making money off these producers. Do we want the government to regulate = these=20 terms also? Make no mistake, if we use these terms to ma
    rket=20 with they will! Consumers are so removed from the food chain that they = cannot or=20 are not motivated enough to learn what these terms mean.  There is = no=20 simple answer.
     
    Please don't get irate with me, but becoming = "certified=20 organic" is a marketing decision. If it is to one's benefit to become = certified=20 (ie: you advertise as certified organic (or just organic I guess), can = get a=20 better price for your certified organic product, or just want legally = label your=20 methods as certified organic) then you should definately get certified. = There=20 are many growers that are "organic" but just don't certify as such = because that=20 is not the market they are after. There are others that could be = certified if=20 they change a few of their methods; and I'm not saying they use Sevin- = maybe=20 they use a product that has an unapproved spreader/sticker agent, or are = unable=20 to keep good records- and feel that to be certified would be too = restrictive. I=20 think all but the very idealistic would admit that maybe there are some=20 conventional methods that are not BAD! in of themselves, if used in = moderation=20 after reviewing other options. Of course they can't be certified = organic. There=20 are those that think that to grow any other way but certified organic is = BAD!. I=20 sometimes wonder if maybe there are some organic practices that may be = harmful=20 in the long run, after all, we in the organic community are just as = human and=20 fallible as those in the biotech community. (one concern is that we can = improve=20 soil by adding compost- but should all soils be "improved"? )
     
    For myself, I'm just getting started in farming (on my own farm, = have=20 several years of agricultural work) and if it were just up to the = individual=20 states to regulate the certification process I would probably get = certified in=20 my own state, but with federal regulation looming and still no clear=20 understanding of what changes that will make, I will not get certified. = My area=20 has little demand for organics (though I expect an increase in time), = and the=20 supply of produce here is lacking in quality, and most people are = just=20 thrilled to find fresh, high quality stuff regardless of the methods = used to=20 produce it. I hope to educate my consumers little by little as to why my = produce=20 is better than that of the conventional farmers (lots of flyers in the = bags).=20 Success of my farm is most important to me- that success includes the = ongoing=20 health of the soil and ecosystem, but the bottom line must come first in = order=20 to continue to nurture that soil and ecosystem or I will be gone and = this land=20 will be in tobacco or development so fast it would make your head spin!=20 Certification for me will not pay. Certainly I would like to be able to = use some=20 standardized label for my growing methods (I prefer "Sustainable") but = not if it=20 means the government bossing me around or losing my property = rights!
     

    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BF54A2.C6203D60-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sat Jan 1 23:43:42 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13541 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA29176; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:39:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28771 for ; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:33:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13515; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28139; Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:33:12 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:33:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Amy and Eric Johnson cc: CSA list Subject: Re: Certification proves zip In-Reply-To: <000c01bf54cc$b2239080$a9f9e5ce@pavilion> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1138 On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Amy and Eric Johnson wrote: > "Support SMALL FARMING and Community Supported Agriculture: > Buy locally grown products labelled Sustainably Grown, Natural, > Ecological, Biodynamic, Beyondorganic, Biological, Greenfood, > Handgrown, Earthfriendly, Wildcrafted, Biointensive OR: produced > without synthetic pesticides, produced without synthetic fertilizers, > raised without synthetic chemicals, pesticide-free farm, no drugs or > growth hormones or stimulants administered, raised without antibiotics, > ecologically produced, sustainably harvested, and humanely raised." > This is part of what led to the whole certified organic process! > Consumers were confused/misled by all these different terms and the > government (and others) stepped in to "regulate" it. Of course this The government acted quickly (in concert with a few carefully-chosen industry representatives) to take advantage of the public's confusion about labeling to make yet more laws they can collect yet more taxes to enforce and give grants to their surrogates in the private sector, mostly to satifsy the needs of big corporate agribusiness wanting to own the "O" word and not wanting competition in the marketplace. > led to increased costs for producers, inefficiency, red tape, and more > middle men making money off these producers. Do we want the government > to regulate these terms also? Make no mistake, if we use these terms If that's the best they can do why did they bother? > to market with they will! Consumers are so removed from the food chain > that they cannot or are not motivated enough to learn what these terms > mean. There is no simple answer. > > Please don't get irate with me, but becoming "certified organic" is a > marketing decision. If it is to one's benefit to become certified (ie: I said from the beginning that organic certification is a really good thing, _as long as it is not mandatory_. It is a business decision, as you said. Its just part of the cost of doing business. It is not for all growers for many obvious reasons. The government cannot steal the word organic, natural, biological, biointensive, etc. This is not fair to small growers who choose not to certify. They, too, deserve a fair market share. Reserving the "O" word for the highest bidder or, for example, rich yuppie "small farmers" who can afford all the help, materials and equipment they want. Small scale organic market growing was not built, developed and sustained by people like that, yet there seem to be those who are willing to deprive small, low-budget growers of their fair market share in order to satisfy the whims of dilletante, part-time growers and corporate agribusiness. > you advertise as certified organic (or just organic I guess), can get > a better price for your certified organic product, or just want Maybe, maybe not. > legally label your methods as certified organic) then you should > definately get certified. There are many growers that are "organic" > but just don't certify as such because that is not the market they are They deserve to label it organic (not certified organic) if their clients believe he grows it organically. That's fair business. > after. There are others that could be certified if they change a few > of their methods; and I'm not saying they use Sevin- maybe they use a > product that has an unapproved spreader/sticker agent, or are unable > to keep good records- and feel that to be certified would be too > restrictive. I think all but the very idealistic would admit that > maybe there are some conventional methods that are not BAD! in of > themselves, if used in moderation after reviewing other options. Of > course they can't be certified organic. There are those that think > that to grow any other way but certified organic is BAD!. I sometimes They've bought the propaganda lock, stock and barrel. > wonder if maybe there are some organic practices that may be harmful > in the long run, after all, we in the organic community are just as Probably not. > human and fallible as those in the biotech community. (one concern is > that we can improve soil by adding compost- but should all soils be > "improved"? ) Why is this a "concern"; I thought growers just _added compost as needed_. > For myself, I'm just getting started in farming (on my own farm, have The best of luck to you! You've picked a wonderful profession. > several years of agricultural work) and if it were just up to the > individual states to regulate the certification process I would > probably get certified in my own state, but with federal regulation > looming and still no clear understanding of what changes that will > make, I will not get certified. My area has little demand for organics You're better off learning to be a beter farmer and cultivating a niche market in your area; glean clients who believe in what you're doing. Don't waste your time and money with certification other than that provided by a peer group of growers who do it to promote public recognition and appreciation of local small market growers and the high quality products they provide to the communities they live within. > (though I expect an increase in time), and the supply of produce here > is lacking in quality, and most people are just thrilled to find > fresh, high quality stuff regardless of the methods used to produce > it. I hope to educate my consumers little by little as to why my > produce is better than that of the conventional farmers (lots of > flyers in the bags). Success of my farm is most important to me- that Sounds like you're doing it right. > success includes the ongoing health of the soil and ecosystem, but the > bottom line must come first in order to continue to nurture that soil > and ecosystem or I will be gone and this land will be in tobacco or > development so fast it would make your head spin! Certification for me > will not pay. Certainly I would like to be able to use some Right you are. Local folks, especially rural and many restaurants, just want good looking produce that tastes great. I'm sure, whether they would admit it or not, they _would_, silently perhaps, appreciate the fact that no pesticides were used to grow it. > standardized label for my growing methods (I prefer "Sustainable") but > not if it means the government bossing me around or losing my property > rights! Right on! This standardized label could be provided by a farmer-owned, farmer-run group (perhaps the co-op idea I mentioned previously. A group such as this could gain public recognition quickly, with timely advertising in the right places. Common Ground. Lawrence Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 07:00:12 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16076 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 07:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA11085; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:59:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f126.hotmail.com [216.32.181.126]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA10959 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 05:53:56 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 89602 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jan 2000 11:53:25 -0000 Message-ID: <20000102115325.89601.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 03:53:25 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: RE: Pest control: Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 06:53:25 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1139 Hey, Art, congrats on your new wildlife refuge! My Pyrenees/Maremma livestock guardian did a great job keeping birds, coyotes, poachers, and other vermin out of my fields. Unfortunately, it looks like one of the poachers didn't like Ragnar's attention. He disappeared just after Halloween and his patrolling buddy showed up at home with a hole in her chest. The LGD worked very well for me, but I won't replace him until I can afford to put up woven wire fencing (better yet, 10-foot-high chain link) around the whole 20-acre farm. Too bad, too -- getting the LGD was supposed to enable me to avoid that expense. Two years of work getting through his autism, more than $500 in basic maintenance, and three seconds of target practice for some Yahoo. The more I see of people, the better I like goats. But a good dog will do a good job of keeping birds out. Being able to keep the dog will depend on your neighbors. Dori Green ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 07:13:26 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16099 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 07:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA11331; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 06:13:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f302.hotmail.com [216.32.180.156]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA11209 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 06:07:26 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 30612 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jan 2000 12:06:52 -0000 Message-ID: <20000102120652.30611.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.2 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 04:06:52 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.2] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Aarrrghghgh Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 07:06:52 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1140 Here I am, getting ready to write my new press release and put my new website back online. Recent discussions on the list just brought back to mind my experience when I offered to facilitate a discussion by the local YWCA's Young Mother's group about alternative (ie, organic) food choices. This was just after the National Academy of Science had released their formal recommendation that all children under 4 should be given nothing but organic food because their systems are more susceptible to the effects of pesticides and chemical fertilizers. The director of the Y wouldn't let me in to their group. Her excuse was that she couldn't recommend organic produce "because you people put manure on it". Stupidity rears its ugly head in the most unexpected places sometimes. Dori Green Driven to beat my head against the big plank door of stupidity. Don't ask me why -- it's a gift or a curse. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 15:23:21 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19755 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25973; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:22:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest2.iquest.net (iquest2.iquest.net [209.43.20.102]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA25661 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:16:44 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 16826 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 20:17:29 -0000 Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (209.43.20.203) by iquest2.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 20:17:29 -0000 Received: (qmail 25972 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 20:16:21 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as002a-1.iquest.net (HELO cvof.iquest.net) (209.43.73.65) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 20:16:21 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000102144609.0079ebd0@pop.iquest.net> X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 14:46:09 -0500 To: erorganic@aol.com, sprinkraft@aol.com, , allenm@mwt.net, david_d@efn.org, saunders@win.bright.net, danamex@mail.internet.com.mx, faunus@interhop.net, tocga@aol.com, "Val Carr" , TOCMC@juno.com, Twittman@aol.com, Praxis@laneta.apc.org, ddecou@organicgrown.com, Buchan , ncamp@ncamp.org, smith100@indy.net, rainycrkjb@rr1.net, wderyckx@fidalgo.net, ofma@aol.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, KTCopsey@aol.com, Ann4Violet@aol.com, roy@floyd.ces.purdue.edu (Roy Ballard), , , richmo@indy.net, hanksa@isco.purdue.edu, kaltman@commerce.state.in.us, jpearson@commerce.state.in.us, ctobin@commerce.state.in.us, , greding@hsonline.net, herbfarm@geetel.net, Jenelsonin@aol.com, jtreceve@juliet.ucs.indiana.edu, Lynn Jenkins , agrinews@indy.neticra-midwest@juno.com, cowmuck@cntwk.net, fjeoc@win.bright.net, dougpond@aol.com, Bruce Burdick <103137.2624@CompuServe.COM>, 74562.774@CompuServe.COM, Juli Baker , editor@branches.com, staff@citact.org, 74551.3636@CompuServe.COM, macmerrill@aol.com, dripley@ca.uky.edu, lg@capitolink.com, lsmith@commerce.state.in.us, fpseeds@adamswells.com, mdoherty@rurdev.usda.gov, jcasper@seidata.com, coopgrocer@eurekanet.com, editor@consciouschoice.com, , hpcoop@igc.org, organicoptions@juno.com, CSA-L@prairienet.org, , coopgrocer@eurikanet.com, "David R. Swaim" From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1141 PLease share! When? Monday, Jan. 24-26, 2000 Where? Adam's Mark Hotel (ask for IHC rates!) 2544 Executive Drive Indpls., IN 46241-5096 phone: 317-248-2481 Reservations: 800-444-ADAM What? Indiana Horticultural Congress: Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Y2K Organic Workshops Jan 24, 2000: Who? Hoosier Organic Marketing Education and the Chairs of the Field Crops Committee of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association OFMA Field Crops meeting, at the IHC Monday Afternoon/Evening Session from 1:30 PM to 6:00 PM. This meeting is open to the public. Registration Fee: $10.00 to OFMA Members, $35.00/non-members. OFMA Membership Fee: $25.00/year Midwest Organic Field Crops Cooperative Discussion and Committee Meeting of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Moderators: Co-chairs, Fred Prow, Juli and Kevin Brussell; Mike Doherty, USDA Cooperative Development Services 1:30 PM to 4:00 PM: OFMA Field Crops Committee Meeting: Update on Forming an IL/IN Field Crops cooperative. 4:00 PM to 4:15 PM: Break 4:15 PM to 6:00 PM: Planning session 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM Dinner--on your own 8:00 PM to ? Informal social hour, more discussion as desired We also invite you to attend the Indiana Horticultural Congress and especially the Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Y2K Organic Workshops on Tuesday and Wednesday. For information on registration, etc., contact us at the email address above or contact Jane Carter at: Tuesday, Jan 25: Morning Session: 9:30 AM to Noon: Moderator: Cissy Bowman 9:30 AM to 9:45 AM: Welcome: Cissy Bowman, President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education, Clayton, IN. Update on state and federal meetings, hearings, laws and labeling regulations. 9:45 AM to 10:30 AM: Break--Remember to visit the Trade Show! 10:30 AM to Noon: Certification Workshop: Moving toward organic certification in Y2K. Learn about choosing a certifier, getting certified, transition to certification, and get help with applications. Val Carr, Indiana Certified Organic, Plainfield, IN. Open to the public. (No matter which certifier you have chosen, or what you intend to grow, this workshop will help you!) Noon to 1:30 PM: Lunch--on your own Afternoon Session: 1:30-4:30 PM: Moderator: Tom Dygard, Dygards Organic Farm, Poland IN 1:30 PM to 2:45 PM: The Organic Greenhouse: Growing and Selling Organic Transplants: Dave Randle, Randle Farm, Lebanon, IN 2:45 PM to 3:00 PM: Break--Remember to visit the Trade Show! 3:00-4:30: Selling Organic Products Locally: Grower/Retailer Roundtable: Georgetown Market, Indpls., IN: Mark King, Produce Manager Wild Oats, Indpls., IN: Missy Brodey, Marketing Director; Mike Frank, Produce Manager; Christie Mascari, Asst. Produce Manager; Dan Braun, Regional Produce Manager Cooperative Grocer, Athens, OH: Dave Gutknecht, Publisher/Editor Dygard Organic Farm, Poland, IN: Tom Dygard, Grower Randle Farm, Lebanon, IN: Dave Randle, Grower Sharritt Market Gardens, Fortville, IN, Roger Sharritt, Grower More participants to be announced! Wednesday, Jan 26, 1998 Morning Session: 9:30 AM to Noon: Moderator: Cissy Bowman 9:30 AM to 10:00 AM: Learning From Others: Californias Private Organic Certification Program. For over 20 years organics has been growing by leaps and bounds on the west coast. How did they do it and what can we do to make it happen here? Phil LaRocca, President, California Certified Organic Farmers, Chico, CA 10:00 AM to 10: 30 AM: Break 10:00 AM to Noon: Organic Grape and Wine Production: Phil LaRocca, La Rocca Vineyards, Chico, CA Noon: Lunch--on your own Remember to visit the Trade Show! The Board of Directors of Hoosier Organic Marketing Education wish to express their deepest sympathy to the family and friends of John Michael Hartman, who passed away last July. John contributed to the IHC Organic Workshops over the years as a speaker and offered hand-on workshops on seed saving techniques. We miss him deeply. His memory, and his seeds, will continue on in our hearts and our gardens. President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 phone/fax cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 15:52:29 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20148 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA27360; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:52:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27000 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 14:46:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20100 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06883 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:46:22 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1142 crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers <...> slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? From mjb@premier1.net Sun Jan 2 16:11:57 2000 Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20313 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-129.premier1.net [207.149.54.129]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id NAA26812; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:05:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf5566$cff617a0$813695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Cc: References: Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:17:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 1143 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. To: Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 12:46 PM Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Because some of us might find the information useful! Give it up. I can only speak for myself, but over the course of your posts I fully understand your point of view. Probably a lot of us out there do. Now let things be and let people put out their info without fear of you degrading it. Michaele Blakely Growing Things > > crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > > <...> > > slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > > Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 16:12:40 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20323 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA28306; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:12:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28038 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:06:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from [207.149.187.11] (pAp11.pond.net [207.149.187.11]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA28620 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:01:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <200001022101.NAA28620@guppy.pond.net> Subject: Re:apprentices (long) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 00 13:16:08 -0800 x-sender: cgrowers@mail.pond.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Aaron Silverman To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1144 I commend Dori on her apprenticeship program. If she is able to make it work for her, power to her. However, I feel the need to respond and clarify some issues for others looking to model programs after hers, both as a employer/grower and as one who has been involved in several apprentice programs. I probably see up to 20 folks every fall & spring looking for apprenticeships on farms. Most have little farming experience, and most have a picture full of romance and devoid of drudgery. An apprenticeship is a means for them to learn about farming without taking on a whole mess of responsibility, figure out if it is for them or not. The one thing I caution every one is to not pay to work for someone. Why offer apprenticeships? While altruistic phrases spice our reasons (give a fresh batch of farmers the requisite skills to be successful, etc.), the main reason is plain: affordable labor. Labor is costly, between minimum wages, workman's comp insurance, tax withholdings, $$$$$. Pencil out the true cost of labor along these lines and the small farming venture suddenly makes a whole lot less, or may not even make it at all. Apprentices allow us to hire unskilled labor, train them & utilize their labor without draining the bank for all the mandates. Many have formalized class sessions, with material packets and such, along with the "hands on teaching." Legally, we need to be honest about the relationship. Most of the time, the folks are on our farms to WORK. This qualifies as employment. Period. What one chooses to do about this knowledge is up to them (until the state notices), but know that it's how an outsider is going to view it. The recently published "Legal Guide For DIrect Farm Marketing" by Neil Hamilton ($22 from Drake University Law School) and the September 99 issue of Growing For Market are great resources to investigate the legal issue of apprenticeships. >If somebody doesn't like the arrangement they can go pay $400 a week at one >of the new-age places. Rule 1 for prospective apprentices: Don't Pay to Work. A season's apprenticeship @ Dori's (6 months) costs: >Meals cost $150 per month >$250 per month, year round, >through our affordable housing cooperative. Rooms may be shared by two >apprentices, $150 per month each. > And oh yes, they have to be members ($25 per year). $900 food + $900 rent(shared room) + $25 membership = $1825. This is quite a sum to work with someone for a season, presumably 30-40 hours/week. What happens if the apprentice gets hurt? Who's responsible for the medical bills? Again - I an not criticizing Dori for running such a program. If she can find folks willing, great. As a former apprentice, this would not be for me. We operate a very labor and management intensive operation. Apprentices are immersed into our operation, and by mid-season have sizeable responsibilities for both plants and animals. While I provide formalized learning sessions complete with photocopied materials, videos, & bibliographies, the majority of the education is through the work, both with me and on their own. I am very honest that on the employment <----> apprentice spectrum we lie towards the employment side of things, and have a responsibility to compensate them for their efforts. I wish we could compensate our apprentices the true value of their labor, but unfortunately we can't - and we let them know this as often as possible. This will be the third year we will have a full time apprentice. Apprentices receive housing (this year in a yurt behind the house) and food - produce, staples (including Cokes round here) and the occasional shared goody. Lunches are always shared, dinners sometimes. The level that the apprentice is welcomed into our household depends on their personalities - some folks prefer to be on their own after hours. In addition we have a graduated stipend schedule which increases over the season, and heavily weighted to the end: 2000 Full Time Apprentice Stipend Schedule: April: $200 Aug: $350 May: $250 Sept: $350 June: $300 Oct: $400 July: $300 Season-End Bonus: $400 + 1% gross sales (target $500) Total before profit-sharing Bonus: $2,550* * Includes Worker's Compensation coverage, produce & 3 massage coupons The stipend is structured this way for several reasons. Firstly, to closely match cash flow concerns, giving the apprentice a more realistic picture of the intricacies of running a business. Secondly, at some point in the season the tedium of farm work begins to weigh heavy. Without some financial carrots, some folks can crumble under the stress, and fizzle. This doesn't completely eliminate burnout, but does give a small answer to the "why?" Lastly, I feel it's important for folks to be able to walk away from a summer of hard work with some cash in their pockets. Even at $400/month, money can be hard to save over the summer. A couple nights out, a music show, a weekend to the coast - suddenly you're driving away with $300 in your pocket. Hardly makes the summer worthwhile. By having the final month's stipend be the largest (when expenses are near their lowest), along with bonuses, our apprentices can walk away with $1000 or more in hand. One final note: I have seen several operations get buried from Workman Compensation claims. These have all been successful farms, that either hired legitimate employees or had apprenticeship programs. People have gotten hurt, either through an accident or through the physical stress of the work itself. Who pays the medical bills? A $5000 claim that goes through WC and is laid at the feet of the farmer costs much more with no coverage. Coverage is not very expensive, especially compared to a $10,000 claim (as 2 farmers I know have had to deal with). Coverage is based on payroll, so there is some wiggle room for applying it to apprentice programs. Even if the apprentice has personal coverage, you will probably be liable when their insurance sues you (or your insurance company) for reimbursment. The apprentice will have no choice but to go along with the suite, no matter how much they may like you, or thier insurance won't cover the expenses. This is not a far out scenario - it is the status quo in todays business & insurance environments. Labor is expensive. Apprentices are a great way to obtain affordable labor, and teach others how to be successful growers. Know the rules, and do whatever you feel meets your needs and the legal restraints. But know the liabilities when you make your choices. Aaron Creative Growers Aaron Silverman 88741 Torrence Rd. Noti, Or. 97461 cgrowers@pond.net Quality Produce & Pastured Poultry From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 16:18:35 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20385 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA28720; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:18:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28240 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:11:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-129.premier1.net [207.149.54.129]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id NAA26812; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:05:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000f01bf5566$cff617a0$813695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." Cc: References: Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:17:43 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1145 ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. To: Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 12:46 PM Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Because some of us might find the information useful! Give it up. I can only speak for myself, but over the course of your posts I fully understand your point of view. Probably a lot of us out there do. Now let things be and let people put out their info without fear of you degrading it. Michaele Blakely Growing Things > > crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > > <...> > > slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > > Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 16:38:22 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20525 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA29788; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:38:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29396 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:31:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from pmjb (red-1-129.premier1.net [207.149.54.129]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id NAA28988 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:25:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002a01bf5569$97b03da0$813695cf@pmjb> From: "Michaele Blakely" To: Subject: zone 5 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 13:37:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF5526.88E524E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1146 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF5526.88E524E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List; Heard from Erika. She wants to hear from zone 5 people as to what's = alive in Zone 5. Coming from a zone 7/8 grower, zone 5 sounds harsh to = me. I'm curious too though. What are the plusses and minuses of = temperatures going below zero and more? Are perennials out of the = question. How about berries? My poor little chickies would freeze = their toes off. I would imagine livestock buildings need different = considerations. And do you all do some sort of naked ritual dance when = temperatures go above 40? Michaele Blakely Growing Things ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF5526.88E524E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear List;
    Heard from Erika.  She wants to = hear from zone=20 5 people as to what's alive in Zone 5.  Coming from a zone 7/8 = grower, zone=20 5 sounds harsh to me.  I'm curious too though.  What are the = plusses=20 and minuses of temperatures going below zero and more?  Are = perennials out=20 of the question.  How about berries?  My poor little chickies = would=20 freeze their toes off.  I would imagine livestock buildings need = different=20 considerations.  And do you all do some sort of  naked ritual = dance=20 when temperatures go above 40?
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing = Things
    ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01BF5526.88E524E0-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 17:02:14 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA20638 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA01107; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:01:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from Alice.BMTS.Com (alice.bmts.com [216.183.128.11]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00702 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 15:56:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from CatherineBould (ts2-ap06.bmts.com [216.183.140.16]) by Alice.BMTS.Com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00378; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:54:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003601bf556c$9bbf55e0$5701fea9@CatherineBould> From: "Catherine & Matt" To: "Michaele Blakely" , Subject: Re: zone 5 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:59:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5542.ACF4F380" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1147 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5542.ACF4F380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Michael, I think I'm in zone 5, Flesherton, Ontario. We have been skating on our = pond, it's been VERY cold but today it was 40 and we almost did a naked = ritual dance but instead took a long walk outside. Our hens stay outside all summer but by October they're inside the barn. = I think it would be too cold for them to have separate housing in the = winter here. The other animals, (goats, horse and cow) help keep the = barn warm enough for them until April. Although when it's as cold as = it's been the last two weeks I've been hauling buckets of hot water to = the barn morning and night to keep the ice off the drinking water. This is not what I'd call a harsh climate, I have had herbs in = particular manage well through the winter. I notice there are still alot of green weeds in the garden. We do have = alot of perennials that will be poking their heads through starting in = March, rhubarb being the first. Raspberries seem to be very hardy, in = spite of my goats eating all the leaves, and they will certainly survive = the winter, along with the strawberries. Catherine -----Original Message----- From: Michaele Blakely To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Date: January 2, 2000 4:43 PM Subject: zone 5 Dear List; Heard from Erika. She wants to hear from zone 5 people as to what's = alive in Zone 5. Coming from a zone 7/8 grower, zone 5 sounds harsh to = me. I'm curious too though. What are the plusses and minuses of = temperatures going below zero and more? Are perennials out of the = question. How about berries? My poor little chickies would freeze = their toes off. I would imagine livestock buildings need different = considerations. And do you all do some sort of naked ritual dance when = temperatures go above 40? Michaele Blakely Growing Things ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5542.ACF4F380 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Michael,
     
    I think I'm in zone 5, Flesherton, Ontario. We have = been=20 skating on our pond, it's been VERY cold but today it was 40 and we = almost did a=20 naked ritual dance but instead took a long walk outside.
     
    Our hens stay outside all summer but by October = they're inside=20 the barn. I think it would be too cold for them to have separate housing = in the=20 winter here. The other animals, (goats, horse and cow) help keep the = barn warm=20 enough for them until April. Although when it's as cold as it's been the = last=20 two weeks I've been hauling buckets of hot water to the barn morning and = night=20 to keep the ice off the drinking water.
     
    This is not what I'd call a harsh climate, I have = had herbs in=20 particular manage well through the winter.
     
    I notice there are still alot of green weeds in the = garden. We=20 do have alot of perennials that will be poking their heads through = starting in=20 March, rhubarb being the first. Raspberries seem to be very hardy, in = spite of=20 my goats eating all the leaves, and they will certainly survive the = winter,=20 along with the strawberries.
     
    Catherine
     
    -----Original = Message-----
    From:=20 Michaele Blakely <mjb@premier1.net>
    To: = CSA-L@prairienet.org <CSA-L@prairienet.org>
    D= ate:=20 January 2, 2000 4:43 PM
    Subject: zone 5

    Dear List;
    Heard from Erika.  She wants = to hear from=20 zone 5 people as to what's alive in Zone 5.  Coming from a zone = 7/8=20 grower, zone 5 sounds harsh to me.  I'm curious too = though.  What=20 are the plusses and minuses of temperatures going below zero and = more? =20 Are perennials out of the question.  How about berries?  = My poor=20 little chickies would freeze their toes off.  I would imagine = livestock=20 buildings need different considerations.  And do you all do = some sort=20 of  naked ritual dance when temperatures go above = 40?
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing=20 Things
    ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01BF5542.ACF4F380-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 17:50:21 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21104 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA03314; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:50:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f229.hotmail.com [216.32.181.229]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA02975 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 16:44:06 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 2301 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jan 2000 22:43:32 -0000 Message-ID: <20000102224332.2300.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.9 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 14:43:32 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.9] From: "Dori Green" To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Re:apprentices (long) - Just for the record Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 17:43:32 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1148 Just for the record -- Apprentices here are not required to live at the farm, nor to take their meals here. The housing program and the apprenticeship program are two separate operations. If somebody can feed themselves for less than $40 a week, that's fine and they're welcome to do so. Housemates who receive food stamps have had to do exactly that because of the program regulations. I think somebody also may have missed the point that apprentices may pitch a tent for the summer just for the cost of renting a chemical toilet (about $25 a month, less if two or more apprentices share the durned thing). There is no charge for storm sanctuary, evening TV watching, or shower facilities. Most of my apprentices are local folks who spend a morning or afternoon in the gardens once or twice a week, and are very satisfied with that arrangement. Those who have come in for a summer season have never spent more than 16 hours a week in the fields. I haven't found anybody yet who is physically or emotionally capable of a sustained level of effort on an eight-hour day, much less the 16 hours I put in on market days. Two hours at a time is the limit for most folks out in the fields, and what I suggest to newbies who don't want to be hurting the next day. People who work out on a regular basis are just amazed at how sore they can get from a few hours of serious gardening. Apprentices here do have the option (as do all members) to share in the profits of the market garden in direct proportion to the number of hours they put into same above and beyond their labor in exchange for instructional time, as a cooperative business (again separate from the apprenticeship program). Apprentices can also work extra hours to earn equity shares in the farm itself. We will start paying salaries here on the day that I start getting paid a salary. Which might happen this year if we register formally as a 501(c)3 educational organization. The board will then be paying me rent for the use of the farm (now donated) and it will be paying me for at least part of my time (now donated, along with about $10,000 a year covering basic operating expenses -- which the Board will also be paying). Exact amounts for all of those will be negotiated with the board when it has been installed, and will probably depend greatly on our success at marketing and grants. These will both be very useful and welcome, but under NFP rules I will no longer be allowed to offer profit or land shares. So we will win something, and lose something with this change of organizational status. Until then, this place works on partnerships that challenge the us/them paradigm of boss and employee, and that's a big part of what we're all about. This confuses a lot of people, as does our "bottom line" of improving the soil and wildlife habitat aspect of the farm with annual harvests being just a nice side benefit. That's got the Cooperative Extension and Farm Bureau people just all kinds of turned around! Most localities have some sort of job development council, and I might be working with ours this year to develop a part- or full-time apprenticeship program for use by all local farmers. The council will pay half of the apprentices' salaries for the first 20 weeks (coincidentally just about a full season here), with the farmer paying the whole salary after that. This might do a fine job of addressing the problem that most newcomers to farming just don't produce $6 an hour worth of production. I'm still not sure they produce $3 an hour worth but I'm investigating along these lines especially because I do want to stay "clean" with the Labor Department and insurance regulations and I do want to be fair to the people who want to come here to learn and work. A formal state-sanctioned program with a commitment to hire after conclusion of the apprenticeship period might indeed be the best way to go. Just for the record, I am in favor of the "Willing Workers on Organic Farms" programs. These people Get It and can wander by any time they like. I will even feed them. I'm getting a local program going this year in cooperation with the Food Bank -- volunteers go out to help out for a scheduled afternoon once in a while at any farm participating in the Food Bank Farmer's Market (right next to the area's major mall, all leftovers at market closing go straight into the Food Bank warehouse and farmers get a Fair Market Value IRS receipt for their donation). So the volunteers help the farmers grow more so there can be more to donate. It's casual but everybody wins. And just for the record, I am not in favor of apprenticeship programs that trade tent space or use of an old camper trailer and all they can graze in the garden plus a $25 a week stipend for a 40-hour week of work without a clearly defined written agreement defining what is to be taught, and when, and how, and what the teaching time is worth. Ten hours of intensive specific one-on-one tutoring is indeed worth $100 (or more) but it needs to be clearly understood and agreed to on both sides, in advance and in writing. The rest of the details about our different programs are in the Member Handbook, $25. Dori Green Ash Grove Community Farm ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 18:08:43 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21281 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04079; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:08:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from hotmail.com (law2-f279.hotmail.com [216.32.180.133]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03856 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:02:35 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 89774 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jan 2000 23:02:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20000102230200.89773.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 209.253.196.9 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 15:02:00 PST X-Originating-IP: [209.253.196.9] From: "Dori Green" To: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: zone 5 Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:02:00 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1149 Hi from Zone 4/5, which admittedly is not for wimps nor for the timid. Advantages: most of the bugs get killed real dead. Yay. naked winter solstice dance rituals do not involve blood sacrifices (to those pesky winged thingies) Perennials and berries do just fine. Some of the very best small fruits were developed in the Dakotas -- hardly tropical Gives us something to do with all those dropped leaves (mulch, mulch, mulch) Hauling water and firewood keeps us in great shape for spring planting Great training for those who sometimes entertain notions of Alaska relocation Almost two months of rest from gardening before spring seed starting starts By the end of the season I'm ready for a rest Disadvantages Chickens can lose combs or toes. I set up the brooder light in the coop, then moved it to where they've decided to roost in the barn. I did make enough of a fuss when the 24 chickens decided to roost on top of the ten goats that they gave up on that idea. The goats didn't mind but they weren't so pettable covered with you know what. Dirty birds. I also finally wrapped an old blanket around the top rail of that metal gate they park on and since then I haven't found one frozen to it in the morning. Sometimes eggs freeze before I can find them Barn has to be winter-proofed Gotta buy hay. Ouchies this year! Goats get grouchie if storms keep them inside for more than two days. Playing public radio for them does help. Dori Green Upstate New York But nothing like my alma mater town north of the Adirondacks, where "50 below" wasn't mentioning wind chill. Note that once I obtained the sheepskin I did NOT go back! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 18:14:27 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21318 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04391; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:14:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from server1.accel.net (accel.net [207.164.195.2]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04064 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:08:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from server ([207.164.195.103]) by server1.accel.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-51461U3500L350S0) with SMTP id AAA494; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:06:55 -0500 Message-ID: <004001bf5577$f4715340$8cc3a4cf@accel.net> From: bhfarm@accel.net (Robert Ripley) To: "CSA list" , "Michaele Blakely" References: <002a01bf5569$97b03da0$813695cf@pmjb> Subject: Re: zone 5 Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:20:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF554E.030F2F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1150 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF554E.030F2F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi all well, this property is actually on zone 4 & 5b. the farm has the highest = point in terms of elevation, in our district. we also have a very large, = deep running pond that runs all most of the winter. we have many trees & = hills, & have an area where there is a micro climate for our tiny zone 5 = 20 acres. the rest is all zone 4. we have many problems with winds here. = many times we have had to go out in july & august to cover crops before = they are ripped out by their roots. the cold here is terrible these last = 2 weeks as well. we have been below -15 celsius 4 times in 2 weeks = already. we have temps well into the -30's in jan-mid march. BUT we have many crops that love this. our brassicas love the cold snaps- we = must cover all perennials in fall with a good cover & lift if we geta = good snow fall-if not, it stays until the spring. we can't sow sometimes = until june 5-6 here. we have many portable ^ shaped wood frames with = greenhouse plastic in which to start the seedlings-without heat-& als = use them for extending the season. most perennial herbs will do well if = they have snow cover or other. the berries here must be VERY heavily = mulched over the season. much straw over winter! blueberries love us & = so do raspberries. we have over 2000 raspberryplants in our 35 acres of = sugarbush-they thrive there-good cover-but the deer love them too. wild = blackberries we planted have also done well with common stock. we are = testing new ways to learn from nature.the wild ones seem to have taught = the reg. ones to survive . AND every april 25 i wait for that one night above 40f to dance naked = with winston the 106 yr old wonder dog-who is famous for taste testing = all our squash who also thrive in our zone. i will write some better examples of growing when i have stopped = drinking my y2k reserves of wine-seems i over stocked & the apocalypse = is not as bad as i thought-BUT we did have an earthquake of 5.2 = yesterday!! ciao everyone for now HICCUPPP zone 5 ontario burrrrrrrrrr ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michaele Blakely=20 To: CSA-L@prairienet.org=20 Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 4:37 PM Subject: zone 5 Dear List; Heard from Erika. She wants to hear from zone 5 people as to what's = alive in Zone 5. Coming from a zone 7/8 grower, zone 5 sounds harsh to = me. I'm curious too though. What are the plusses and minuses of = temperatures going below zero and more? Are perennials out of the = question. How about berries? My poor little chickies would freeze = their toes off. I would imagine livestock buildings need different = considerations. And do you all do some sort of naked ritual dance when = temperatures go above 40? Michaele Blakely Growing Things ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF554E.030F2F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    hi all
    well, this property is actually on zone 4 & 5b. = the farm=20 has the highest point in terms of elevation, in our district. we also = have a=20 very large, deep running pond that runs all most of the winter. we have = many=20 trees & hills, & have an area where there is a micro climate for = our=20 tiny zone 5 20 acres. the rest is all zone 4. we have many problems with = winds=20 here. many times we have had to go out in july & august to cover = crops=20 before they are ripped out by their roots. the cold here is terrible = these last=20 2 weeks as well. we have been below -15 celsius 4 times in 2 weeks = already. we=20 have temps well into the -30's in jan-mid march. BUT
    we have many crops that love this. our brassicas = love the cold=20 snaps- we must cover all perennials in fall with a good cover & lift = if we=20 geta good snow fall-if not, it stays until the spring. we can't sow = sometimes=20 until june 5-6 here. we have many portable ^ shaped wood frames with = greenhouse=20 plastic in which to start the seedlings-without heat-& als use them = for=20 extending the season. most perennial herbs will do well if they have = snow cover=20 or other. the berries here must be VERY heavily mulched over the season. = much=20 straw over winter! blueberries love us & so do raspberries. we have = over=20 2000 raspberryplants in our 35 acres of sugarbush-they thrive there-good = cover-but the deer love them too. wild blackberries we planted have also = done=20 well with common stock. we are testing new ways to learn from = nature.the=20 wild ones seem to have taught the reg. ones to survive .
    AND every april 25 i wait for that one night above = 40f to=20 dance naked with winston the 106 yr old wonder dog-who is famous for = taste=20 testing all our squash who also thrive in our zone.
    i will write some better examples of growing when i = have=20 stopped drinking my y2k reserves of wine-seems i over stocked & the=20 apocalypse is not as bad as i thought-BUT we did have an earthquake of = 5.2=20 yesterday!!
    ciao everyone for now
    HICCUPPP
    zone 5 ontario
    burrrrrrrrrr
    ----- Original Message -----
    From:=20 Michaele = Blakely=20
    Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2000 = 4:37=20 PM
    Subject: zone 5

    Dear List;
    Heard from Erika.  She wants to = hear from=20 zone 5 people as to what's alive in Zone 5.  Coming from a zone = 7/8=20 grower, zone 5 sounds harsh to me.  I'm curious too though.  = What=20 are the plusses and minuses of temperatures going below zero and = more? =20 Are perennials out of the question.  How about berries?  My = poor=20 little chickies would freeze their toes off.  I would imagine = livestock=20 buildings need different considerations.  And do you all do some = sort=20 of  naked ritual dance when temperatures go above = 40?
    Michaele Blakely
    Growing=20 Things
    ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01BF554E.030F2F00-- From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 18:24:20 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21400 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA04876; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:24:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04563 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:18:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.metalab.unc.edu [152.19.254.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21366; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08729; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:18:11 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:18:11 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: Michaele Blakely cc: CSA-L@prairienet.org Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting In-Reply-To: <000f01bf5566$cff617a0$813695cf@pmjb> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1151 On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Michaele Blakely wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > Because some of us might find the information useful! Give it up. I can There are other, better places to post releases like that, newsgroups and mailing lists. That post had nothing whatsoever to do with csa. People can observe some semblance of netiquette when posting to this and other lists and newsgroup - or they will get complaints from me and likely others too. You give up what you choose and I'll give up what I choose. Most people are considerate enough not to post crass commercial ads to worthwhile discussion forums. And there are others that do not. > only speak for myself, but over the course of your posts I fully understand > your point of view. Probably a lot of us out there do. Now let things be > and let people put out their info without fear of you degrading it. People may post what they choose; if it impinges in a negative way on the usefullness of this list and is counter to its stated purpose people have a right to say something about that. I haven't degraded anyone or what they have posted here, despite what you imply. I have offered only my opinion and my take on things. If you don't like what I say delete or filter my posts. Want to limit my freedom of speech? LL > Michaele Blakely > Growing Things > > > > crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > > > > <...> > > > > slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > > > > Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > > > Lawrence F. London, Jr. Venaura Farm http://metalab.unc.edu/intergarden /permaculture /intergarden/orgfarm /ecolandtech lflondon@mindspring.com london@metalab.unc.edu From cvof@iquest.net Sun Jan 2 18:38:21 2000 Received: from iquest2.iquest.net (iquest2.iquest.net [209.43.20.102]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA21552 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8370 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 23:39:18 -0000 Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (209.43.20.203) by iquest2.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 23:39:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 29352 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 23:38:18 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003a-5.iquest.net (HELO cvof.iquest.net) (209.43.73.101) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 23:38:18 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000102182642.007ad770@pop.iquest.net> X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:26:42 -0500 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1152 If I offended anyone, I am sorry. The conference is educational, not commercial. I, and the non-profit that sponsors this) make NO money from the conference. It is worthwhile for people like us to know about and to attend. Several CSA folks from the midwest are always there, and the whole program (which I did not send out) has much to offer--especially for those thinking about becoming a CSA--as it is a gathering place for folks like us in this region and has been for 13 years. I'be been pretty silent lately--mostly because I think that some of the recent posts (such as on certification and in this response) have gotten a bit snitty of late, if not insulting. The CSA list is one of the few I can tolerate for the very reason that this one seemed to be different in this regard. So many have allowed "flaming" and other such behavior which not only makes us all look bad, but is discouraging to those who are in this to LEARN, not to preach. If there are rules about sharing info on upcoming events, send it to me and I will comply. Meanwhile, please let's try to be nice to one another. Diversity is our strength. Peace, At 03:46 PM 1/2/00 -0500, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > >crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > ><...> > >slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > >Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > > > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 phone/fax cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 18:44:19 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA21614 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05760; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:44:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from iquest2.iquest.net (iquest2.iquest.net [209.43.20.102]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA05474 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 17:38:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 8372 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 23:39:18 -0000 Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (209.43.20.203) by iquest2.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 23:39:18 -0000 Received: (qmail 29352 invoked from network); 2 Jan 2000 23:38:18 -0000 Received: from iq-ind-as003a-5.iquest.net (HELO cvof.iquest.net) (209.43.73.101) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Jan 2000 23:38:18 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000102182642.007ad770@pop.iquest.net> X-Sender: cvof@pop.iquest.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 18:26:42 -0500 To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." From: Cecilia Bowman Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Cc: csa-l@prairienet.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1153 If I offended anyone, I am sorry. The conference is educational, not commercial. I, and the non-profit that sponsors this) make NO money from the conference. It is worthwhile for people like us to know about and to attend. Several CSA folks from the midwest are always there, and the whole program (which I did not send out) has much to offer--especially for those thinking about becoming a CSA--as it is a gathering place for folks like us in this region and has been for 13 years. I'be been pretty silent lately--mostly because I think that some of the recent posts (such as on certification and in this response) have gotten a bit snitty of late, if not insulting. The CSA list is one of the few I can tolerate for the very reason that this one seemed to be different in this regard. So many have allowed "flaming" and other such behavior which not only makes us all look bad, but is discouraging to those who are in this to LEARN, not to preach. If there are rules about sharing info on upcoming events, send it to me and I will comply. Meanwhile, please let's try to be nice to one another. Diversity is our strength. Peace, At 03:46 PM 1/2/00 -0500, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > >crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > ><...> > >slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > >Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > > > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm ICO Communications Director Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm 8364 S SR 39 Clayton, IN 46118 317-539-4317 phone/fax cvof@iquest.net From owner-csa-l@prairienet.org Sun Jan 2 19:38:00 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22048 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA07985; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:37:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail.always-online.com (mail.always-online.com [12.20.136.3]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07740 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 18:31:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from default [12.25.156.91] by mail.always-online.com (SMTPD32-6.00) id AD7331B0200; Sun, 02 Jan 2000 19:29:39 -0500 Message-ID: <003401bf5582$2bfd6740$02000003@default> From: "Elizabeth Pike" To: "Cecilia Bowman" , References: <3.0.6.32.20000102182642.007ad770@pop.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 19:33:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-csa-l@prairienet.org X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.2.07 -- ListProc(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1154 I don't mind the info Cecilia. I wish I were closer so I could attend! Liz Pike Morningstar Gardens Pollocksville, North Carolina From guldann@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 2 20:21:50 2000 Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA22260 for ; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from guldann (user-2ive36k.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.12.212]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA20802; Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:21:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003401bf55a2$4f1e1e20$d40cf7a5@guldann> From: "Hook Family" To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." , "Cecilia Bowman" Cc: References: <3.0.6.32.20000102182642.007ad770@pop.iquest.net> Subject: Re: IHC and OFMA Midwestern Field Crops meeting Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 20:22:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 I was not offended one bit, never considered it commercial, actually I read as far as held in Indiana and deleted. Didn't think I'd get there from Massachusetts. But with the comments I went back into deleted messages to read it, just to form my own opinion. I think Cecilia was inbounds especially since its a non-profit group sponsoring the conference. Since most CSA are run organically there would probably be good things to learn. I suppose if someone has an interesting conference to announce you could post something like Conference in Indiana e-mail so and so for info. I personally didn't mind the entire post. Beth > If I offended anyone, I am sorry. The conference is educational, not > commercial. I, and the non-profit that sponsors this) make NO money from > the conference. It is worthwhile for people like us to know about and to > attend. Several CSA folks from the midwest are always there, and the whole > program (which I did not send out) has much to offer--especially for those > thinking about becoming a CSA--as it is a gathering place for folks like us > in this region and has been for 13 years. > > > I'be been pretty silent lately--mostly because I think that some of the > recent posts (such as on certification and in this response) have gotten a > bit snitty of late, if not insulting. The CSA list is one of the few I can > tolerate for the very reason that this one seemed to be different in this > regard. So many have allowed "flaming" and other such behavior which not > only makes us all look bad, but is discouraging to those who are in this to > LEARN, not to preach. > > If there are rules about sharing info on upcoming events, send it to me and > I will comply. > > Meanwhile, please let's try to be nice to one another. Diversity is our > strength. > > Peace, > > > At 03:46 PM 1/2/00 -0500, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote: > > > >crass commercial ad copy deleted along with nearly a hundred reply headers > > > ><...> > > > >slick .... all those reply lines to have to deal with. > > > >Why are commercial ads like this posted to a CSA forum? > > > > > > > President, Hoosier Organic Marketing Education > Vice President of the Organic Farmers Marketing Association > Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm > ICO Communications Director > Website: http://www.iquest.net/ofma/icohome.htm > 8364 S SR 39 > Clayton, IN 46118 > 317-539-4317 phone/fax > cvof@iquest.net >