From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 25 02:42:49 1999 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:42:49 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0917249135 0000005938 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 15:19:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25089 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04389 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07644; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:08:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from MAILSERV.CIWMB.CA.GOV ([156.41.30.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00834 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ciwmb.ca.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:07:36 -0700 Message-ID: <23994649BBB4CF11A9670000000000016DD5AE@ciwmb.ca.gov> From: "Robb, Casey" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: California Waste Board - Web Site Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:07:32 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 Web site info, for anyone interested: The California Integrated Waste Management Board has a web site at http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov. The page on construction & demolition (C&D) recycling can be located by selecting "Waste Management Programs" and "Construction & Demolition Debris Recycling." You will find there 2 searchable databases: (1) ~500 C&D recyclers in California, searchable by material category and county, and (2) ~450 recycled construction product manufacturers whose products are available in California, searchable by product category, and county or state. The fact sheets are either viewable or downloadable, and include topics such as recycled aggregate, asphalt pavement, drywall, construction product testing and approval, wood waste, job site separation, carpets, Caltrans (State Dept. of Transp.) and recycled products, asphalt roofing shingles recycling, and recycled latex paint. We have other publications in progress, so you might want to visit the site from time to time, to see what's been added. Feel free to contact me if you have questions, suggestions, or additional information. (FYI - I will be out of the office from Sept 17 to Oct 20.) Thank you, Casey Robb, P.E. California Integrated Waste Management Board Sacramento, California (916) 255-2930 crobb@ciwmb.ca.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 15:24:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25153 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05470 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07766; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:16:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet.calgary.ab.ca (srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca [198.161.243.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01094 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca(198.161.243.11) by srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ64440; Tue Sep 2 13:12:17 1997 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:12:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: Charles Barnard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: paper mache/clay POND liner In-Reply-To: <199708261230.IAA06843@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Has anyone got experience or a reference to the use of either of the techniquess above, which were referred to in a book on ponds? If anyone is so kind to forward this to another more appropriate listerve (or can suggest one to me), I would be grateful. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 22:51:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00118 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14081 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18166; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13505 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:41:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13500 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA14772; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <340CCDAB.371467C9@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 19:38:35 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MAry Sayer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: list nanny, back off X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 I have to agree. I appreciate the moderators role and comments in this last episode. I regret my own comments. Its too easy to be reactive in this kind of forum and with this degree of anonymity. I know (or should occasionally be reminded) that the kinds of comments I made are the kind that should be made face to face, if at all. After a few months on this forum I realized that I valued it primarily as a technical resource, not just for the information but also for the encouragement that results from hearing from people engaged practically in green building activities. Its generally easy to tell from the focus or intent of questions that there are theoretical and political differences but the generosity and integrity of correspondence and responses has precluded such concerns and instead has, for me anyway, generated a sense of common purpose and respect. Thanks for the moderation and thanks for the forum. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. terrain@cow-net.com > > Please don't back from a facilitating role here. I don't think it is > a > matter of stiffling speech... just suggesting that it take place in > another > forum. Any discussion needs a good faciltator to stay focused. > Thankfully, > we have one here. Let's not throw it away... it's the difference > between an > interesting forum and a bar room (Bar rooms are interesting places > ... > good for observing human behavior; not that conducive to technical > discourse). > > Bruce Coldham > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Please don't back from a facilitating role here. I don't think it is > a > matter of stiffling speech... just suggesting that it take place in > another > forum. Any discussion needs a good faciltator to stay focused. > Thankfully, > we have one here. Let's not throw it away... it's the difference > between an > interesting forum and a bar room (Bar rooms are interesting places > ... > good for observing human behavior; not that conducive to technical > discourse). > > Bruce Coldham > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 12:49:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09596 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09509 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29966; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27790 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.11] (iplink005.crocker.com [205.246.4.5]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA14692 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:39:20 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:45:21 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: General Conditions Spec Language Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id MAA09596 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Kurt, Re: „I am seeking a concise paragraph or two for the Summary of Work section „that instructs contractors and bidders to comply with environmentally „responsible building practices. Write down you best effort (you seem to know what you want) and post it for review and comment. Don't let the stilted style of project specification corrupt you. Al that you learned about good clear writing should be aplied to these documents ... including wit .. so long as it doesn't obfuscate. You might require contract bidders to submit a "waste management plan" (or what ever you want to call it) for review and adoption at the preconstruction confernece, or at some paticular time at the begging of the project. You might also require an inventory of waste and where it went. So far as requiring "green" materials in the building. The architect has to do the homework and specify ... precisely. There's no short cut here. I presume that Brown is not constrained by the public bidding laws so you are in a better position to get what is specified. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 16:27:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12638 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03328 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06521; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04909 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA10432 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean retaining walls ? Thanks, Safwat Malek Enviro International Architects / Builders samalek@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 16:27:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12638 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03328 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06521; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04909 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA10432 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean retaining walls ? Thanks, Safwat Malek Enviro International Architects / Builders samalek@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 17:34:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15061 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA19815 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08306; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA06929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:22:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06921 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (med-1130.dip.cdsnet.net [206.107.17.130]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA07196 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709032124.OAA07196@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 We have tried the "RUB_R_WALL" system and have been pleased. It has no petroleum product in it. No leaching of the product into the soils actually one can "EAT" the product it is so inert. Anyway, they are at 1-888-673-6055 BRAD or Duane. or locals can call 1-541-673-6055 fax at 541-673-5525. It is Asphalt free, too. Darrin At 04:14 PM 9/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean >retaining walls ? > >Thanks, > >Safwat Malek >Enviro International Architects / Builders >samalek@aol.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 17:56:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15245 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25239 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08714; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA07591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:47:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA07586 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.91] (usr0a26.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08232 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709032149.RAA08232@pike.sover.net> Subject: GBlist: New Director needed for Habitat's environmental programs Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 17:51:04 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Hi folks, This seems like an opportunity for someone with the right know-how, commitment to really affect a lot of construction! Habitat for Humanity International is seeking a new director for their Construction and Environmental Resources Department, formerly the Department of Environment. The previous director didn't much background in environmental issues--it seems there is a wide open opportunity here to bring some new ideas and practices into play. But it means working with a very large and decentralized organization. Anyhow, if you're interested, contact the personnel office at HBHI in Americus, Georgia at 912/924-6935. Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 19:15:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17118 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11455 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10205; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA09977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:06:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09971 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA20896; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:06:28 -0700 Message-ID: <340DECBE.FF180538@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:03:26 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAMALEK@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 For containing the waterproofing in the structure itself Zypek is a waterproofing agent that is non-toxic. Available either as an admixture for batch processing (requires a higher cement ratio) and adds approx. 20 per yard concrete cost. It is also available as an external or internal surface coating. Works by crystallization. Is used for potable water containment (dams, etc.) I used it for an interior wall (hillside) that was fronting a major drainage flow. The key for waterproofing is only partly the resistance of the wall - the major concern is dealing with groundwater flows and any potential for hydrostatic pressure and remember that any water flows will conduct heat from both soil and building. Problem areas in concrete work are effectively waterproofing either expansion joints or cold joints between pours or the expense of monolithic design and pours. Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can come in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a number of greener options for membrane materials. Hope this helps John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. SAMALEK@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean > retaining walls ? > > Thanks, > > Safwat Malek > Enviro International Architects / Builders > samalek@aol.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 21:47:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18739 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13951 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA13043; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:39:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from neptune.olympus (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14361 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709040138.VAA14361@solstice.crest.org> Received: from ss16.imagen.net by neptune.olympus with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id RWANYZ13; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:44:14 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 18:40:46 -0000 x-sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Elizabeth White To: "John Salmen" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 >Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can come >in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a number >of greener options for membrane materials. How "green" is EPDM? I've used it quite a bit and find it useful, but the offgassing is offensive and does not diminish with time, so I try to use alternatives. Am I wrong? -- Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 1K3 (250) 537-2616, fax:(250) 537-2681, e-mail: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 01:24:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA21495 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00846 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17701; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19458 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:16:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19453 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA24965; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:16:01 -0700 Message-ID: <340E435B.9AAC06F0@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 22:13:00 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth White CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709040138.SAA22561@bossie.cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 Hi Elizabeth Zypec is 'green' in terms of product definition and current standards but it would be worth a further look (I was quite surprised when I started looking closely at floor finishes marketed as environmentally friendly and looked at background data sheets on the current mediums, defoaming agents and levelers used). Zypec, I think, is a form of sodium silicate (trad. called waterglass), and is the most acceptable form of concrete waterproofing (as an additive) and damproofing (as a surface coating) that I have found - to date, a lot better than tar. I mentioned epdm as an option (among which there are 'greener' versions) because it is (in most forms) a stabler product than a bituminous product. I have used it as a waterproofing roofing membrane under concrete and earth decks - as an alternative to bituminous (torch-on) products. There are low voc latex membranes, there are even pure rubber membrane products still available. I do not know the full chemical breakdown of the various epdm's on the market - it is not my first choice of product primarily because of the bonding agents used and secondarily because of the polymers used but there are not a lot of options. When I was looking at earth roofs and concrete roof decks - I was initially attracted to using a pure earth system (alternating sod layers) and for other applications a pure concrete deck, however it was one of those situations where I could not provide any guarantees of performance and could not put the client at excessive risk. Ericksons early flat roofs on Hornby leaked for quite some time (I'm told) and I think those were on a bituminous base. Poly might be an acceptable option as it is a non-chlorine product and could be heat sealed - but it would be a risk. Anyway I think I've conveyed the drift that it is a balancing act in which the solutions are to some degree always a little wrong and a little right. I would like to hear of some of the alternatives that your working with. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Elizabeth White wrote: > > >Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can > come > >in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a > number > >of greener options for membrane materials. > > How "green" is EPDM? I've used it quite a bit and find it useful, but > the > offgassing is offensive and does not diminish with time, so I try to > use > alternatives. Am I wrong? > > -- > Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions > 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 1K3 > (250) 537-2616, fax:(250) 537-2681, e-mail: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 08:47:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA24990 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05756 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22068; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:39:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA24109 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:39:57 -0400 (EDT) From: NMBlues@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA08842 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904084149_-367158013@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: vinyl window frames & heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Dear list, I have a client with a vintage 70's passive solar house that has NO overhang or other shade on the lower floor of the south side. They have the window quilt system which they swear by as the best thing since the wheel. The ORIGINAL problem: a storm and (i am guessing) many years of heat build up between the 6'X6' aluminum framed sliding glass doors (not thermally broken) and the window quilt has left 2-36 sf openings without working glazing seals. What I have read (briefly): March/April '96 EBN article on windows. I gather that if the owner is unwilling to pay for thremal breaks (i did explain that whatever the owner did to this house-even though they are moving-ultimately affects them through the world down the line---maybe the extra money will appear for the thermal breaks) the best energy-wise (from a end-user standpoint, not embodied energy) product may be the vinyl frame, as wood is even more expensive than thermal breaks in this type of opening, specifically. The NEW problem: Vinyl seems to start degrading (per same article) at high temperatures. The window quilt system certainly causes high temps. The QUESTIONs: Would the owner be serving the world better putting in aluminum frame windows and adding shade from exterior or putting in thermally broken windows? Can the owner put vinyl insulated frames in this location without new exterior shading to relieve the heat buildup behind the window quilt system? Can the owner reasonably install vinyl frames at all in this location (I am voting no based on the possibility of frame degradation coupled with the PVC content of the frame and the relatively [compared to wood and metal] new mass use [therefore little history of longterm viability] of vinyl windows)? The owner is being encouraged to install vinyl by a window installer for only $50 more each! Any help (point me to a resource that i can get on the net or at libraries or if you know similar situations, or people who do) I could receive would be appreciated. Sincerely, Dona Stankus, AIA Dona Stankus, Architect Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 10:20:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26426 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25328 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23297; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:13:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iac6.navix.net (iac6.navix.net [207.91.5.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25993 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.23 (xyp29p13.navix.net [204.96.104.23]) by iac6.navix.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17646; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:14:57 -0500 Message-ID: <340E6F67.1DCF@navix.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:20:57 +0100 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Stucco and Polymers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw cycles, moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco products are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same or similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:03:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00214 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17164 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29435; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02494 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LLI27761; Thu, 04 Sep 1997 11:53:06 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Message-ID: <19970904.075544.12310.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199708282058.QAA16843@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 Charlie: Charlie What happens to your individual property rights when your immediate neighbor does something that dramatically affects your property? For example: You have never had any flooding problems, because your neighbor has a wetland. One day, that wetland is filled. During the next cycle of heavy rains, your property is flooded, your house is substantially damaged. Does your neighbor still have the right to fill that wetland, that was on his private property? Do you get to sue your neighbor? Or should there be some regulation of how you use your property? What if your neighbor wants to run a pig farm or a dog kennel....do you have any rights to keep his smell, noise or runoff away from you? He is just doing what he wants to do with his own private property....and according to you...no one should infringe on his rights to do so. Should there be no regulation for the public good? What of all the privately owned wetlands that were filled on the Red River north of Grand Forks last spring....when heavy runoff came, there was no sponge to soak it up, and Grand Forks flooded.... Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:03:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00214 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17164 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29435; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02494 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LLI27761; Thu, 04 Sep 1997 11:53:06 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Message-ID: <19970904.075544.12310.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199708282058.QAA16843@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 Charlie: Charlie What happens to your individual property rights when your immediate neighbor does something that dramatically affects your property? For example: You have never had any flooding problems, because your neighbor has a wetland. One day, that wetland is filled. During the next cycle of heavy rains, your property is flooded, your house is substantially damaged. Does your neighbor still have the right to fill that wetland, that was on his private property? Do you get to sue your neighbor? Or should there be some regulation of how you use your property? What if your neighbor wants to run a pig farm or a dog kennel....do you have any rights to keep his smell, noise or runoff away from you? He is just doing what he wants to do with his own private property....and according to you...no one should infringe on his rights to do so. Should there be no regulation for the public good? What of all the privately owned wetlands that were filled on the Red River north of Grand Forks last spring....when heavy runoff came, there was no sponge to soak it up, and Grand Forks flooded.... Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:39:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00843 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26364 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00528; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:31:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03533 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: CeramiChas@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA15455; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904143313_385436271@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: woodeneagle@juno.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Dear Scott, You are among the minority that missed the whole point of the thread. Property rights aside....if you or anyone else, disturbs or distroys any part of a wetland, then federal law has been violated and can result in fine or jail. The point I was trying to make is, those on the list that were giving advice to someone having too many cat tails was WRONG in basic concept that one could do as they please on their land...using common sense. My other point being that common sense has been left out of the laws leaving US paying individually and collectively for this short fall in environmental law. You see those cat tails do not belong to them only the illusion of ownership. We the american people have taken claim to those resources. Just because someone has well intentions does not matter to the law, and ignorance is no excuse. What amounts to stepping on a bug in your back yard or pulling weeds around the pond your kids swim in could result in losing everything you own and have worked for is tatamount to govenment insanity. I am all for protecting the environment. And believe our common good must be protected. But I do not believe that every standing body of water in the whole country has to be ursurped by a draconian and insane law. And to make another point, where do we draw the line on a neighbor damaging another by developing their personal resources? Sun light, water, view? What to one is garbage to another is art. Just where would you join the fray over YOUR personal property rights and use. YOU do own property I assume. I would also in keeping with some on the list prefer you email me with your responses. Best, Charlie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 15:45:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01715 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14100 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA02005; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05515 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from newgreen2 (ip123.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.123]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23657; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970904193523.006d7bb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:35:23 -0400 To: NMBlues@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: vinyl window frames & heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 At 08:41 AM 9/4/97 -0400, NMBlues@aol.com wrote: >Dear list, > >I have a client with a vintage 70's passive solar house that has NO overhang >or other shade on the lower floor of the south side. They have the window >quilt system which they swear by as the best thing since the wheel. Try Accurate Dorwin (204/982-4640) for pultruded fiberglass farmes and highly selective coatings & lowe windows. Run Windows 4.1 (Lawrence Berkley Labs 510/486-5606) for glazing, thermal break, shading issues. or try http://www.eren.doe.gov/buildings/tools_directory/ Look at selective window films instead of Window Quilt. best, -------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 15:51:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01779 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15716 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03165; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:43:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from serv1.rof.net (serv1.rof.net [209.38.34.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05781 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.38.34.210] (ptp193.rof.net [209.38.34.193]) by serv1.rof.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22887 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:52:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:52:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: lisamc@rof.net (Lisa McManigal) Subject: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Is anybody aware of any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) that have addressed green concerns? I'm looking for case studies where energy or water efficiency, lighting, materials, smart land use plans or waste management and other operational issues have been addressed, even on a superficial level. I'm working with Global Green USA, who has received a small grant from the US EPA to do some background research on current best practices in environmental management within the retail industry. Any leads would be greatly appreciated! Lisa McManigal Project Manager Retail Center Resource Efficiency Project Global Green USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 19:20:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04127 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09481 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15400; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:08:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns1.mcn.org (dns1.mcn.org [204.189.12.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11187 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.189.13.43] (pm25-1-gua-a11.mcn.org [204.189.13.43]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA00570; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709042310.QAA00570@dns1.mcn.org> Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 16:13:28 +0100 x-sender: comet@mail.mcn.org x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: To: "Lisa McManigal" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id TAA04127 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 On Sept 4 Lisa McManigal asked about: >any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) >that have addressed green concerns? We suggest you look at Real Goods located in Northern California. They have built their ³shopping center² off the grid and have plans for lodging & a restaurant. They have a very impressive Internet presence at http://wwww.realgoods.com where you can learn more about their building process and environmentally conscious / sustainable issues. Dianne McKenzie & John Halley C O M E T S T U D I O S : a Consortium of Studios € Environmentally Conscious Architectural Planning and Design € € Digital Imaging & Rendering € Web Design & Development € Telephone: 707-785-2567 & 707-785-2107 E-Mail: comet@cometstudios.com Web Site: http://www.cometstudios.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 21:59:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07791 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA12689 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA18622; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA15491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:52:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA15486 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:52:39 -0400 (EDT) From: G40michael@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA28410 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ureathane foam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local insulating contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be non- toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am considering its use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to run any addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the foam only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody have any experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. G. Michael Molnar ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 23:34:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09716 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07166 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20382; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17361 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pm156-04.dialip.mich.net (pm156-04.dialip.mich.net [198.111.2.79]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA31511; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:26:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:26:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199709050326.XAA31511@server1.mich.com> X-Sender: dwarren@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Warren Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: wetlands Cc: Rabson/Newman Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 >.................You said: >>if you or anyone else, disturbs or distroys any part >>>of a wetland,then federal law has been violated > >It would have been more accurate to say that if anyone disturbs or destroys >any part of a wetland WITHOUT THE REQUIRED PERMITS, then federal law has been >violated (and possibly state and local laws as well). > >Projects that destroy wetlands are permitted every day, but only after >thorough review by a number of agencies, coordinated by the U.S. Army Corps >of Engineers................... > The information about wetlands permits is correct. But having read the statistics enough to know the ratio of approvals to applications is almost 1:1 in some regions, I'd suggest striking the word "thorough." Being Green requires more than just going through the motions. Dave Warren Rochester, MI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 01:39:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA10917 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00154 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22191; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19253 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:32:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19249 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA15332; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: <340F98BB.90466A7E@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:29:31 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: G40michael@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ureathane foam X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 I'm not sure exactly the form of spray foam your are referring to, traditionally concerns with polyurethane foams have been with expanding or blowing agents and their contributions to ozone deplition. I think Icynene (sp.?) is a non cfc or hcfc foam but as far as I know they all contain isocyanates, among other things, for which their is some info. below. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. HAZARD SUMMARY BACKGROUND: Polyurethane foam is being used more and more as an insulation material in residential construction. Recent experience indicates that some contractors may not be providing workers who handle it with adequate respiratory protection or training in proper work and hygiene practices. Polyurethane foam is usually prepared on site in a closed system. The following materials are mixed in a 1:1 ratio: - base resin, comprising polyols, amines (often tertiary amines) to act as catalyst and plasticizers; and - isocyanate (both monomeric and polymeric), usually methylene bisphenyl isocyanate (MDI). Normally, two workers are involved in spraying the foam: a sprayer and a helper who cuts off excess foam and cleans it up. To clean the spray gun, the workers use an organic solvent such as glycol ether (ethylene glycol monoethyl ether). HEALTH HAZARDS: When sprayed, materials that contain isocyanates can cause primary irritation, sensitization and allergic reactions. The main organs affected are the respiratory system, the eyes and the skin. Long-term effects include chronic bronchitis and asthma. Exposure to the vapour of the tertiary amine, which is normally a component of the catalyst in producing the foam, may cause eye irritation. This may result in temporary blurred vision or the appearance of a blue haze or halo around lights. There is a safety hazard if a worker's vision is severely affected. Tertiary amines may also cause allergic asthmatic reactions. Repeated or prolonged skin contact with the organic solvents used in cleaning may result in skin irritation or rashes. Glycol ether may be absorbed in significant amounts through intact skin. LOCATIONS AND SECTORS Residential and commercial construction. APPLICABLE LEGISLATION The construction sector is exempt from the Isocyanates Regulation (RRO 842/90), but the requirements of the WHMIS Regulation (RRO 860/90) do not apply to construction. A draft regulation on isocyanates on construction projects is being developed. The Occupational Health and Safety Act states: "An employer shall take every precaution reasonable in the circumstances for the protection of the worker" (s. 25(2)(h)). PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES FOR SPRAYING POLYURETHANE FOAM - Both the sprayer and the helper must use the appropriate class of air-supplying respirator operated in pressure- demand or other positive-pressure mode while polyurethane is being sprayed. If compressed air is used for respirators, it must meet applicable CSA Standards. - The Construction Safety Association of Ontario recommends that a roped-off safety area should be established around the spraying operation for the protection of other workers. The boundary should be three metres (10 ft.) from the operation for outdoor spraying and eight metres (25 ft.) for indoor spraying. - Anyone working within three metres (10 ft.) of the operation must wear full protective clothing and respiratory protective equipment (see the ministry's Guide to Isocyanate Regulation, page 26). - Ensure that: - polyurethane components are properly labelled. - the proper Material Safety Data Sheets are available on site, and - workers have been trained as required by the WHMIS Regulation. - In particular, workers must be trained by a competent person in: - the hazards of exposure to isocyanates, organic solvents, and tertiary amines, - proper work and hygiene practices, and - proper use, maintenance and cleaning of respiratory protective equipment. - Work and hygiene practices should include the following: - Provide adequate ventilation to the outdoors from the work area. If mechanical ventilation is used, fans must be non-sparking. - Prohibit any potential source of ignition in the work area. - Clean and decontaminate equipment used in handling isocyanates promptly after using it. - Prohibit eating, drinking and smoking in the work area. - Avoid skin contact with isocyanates and organic solvents: for example, wear polyvinyl alcohol gloves for protection against isocyanates, or chlorinated polyethylene gloves for isocyanates and ethers. Chemical resistance may vary among different products made of the same material, so the resistance of protective clothing should be evaluated under conditions of use. - Wash hands and face before eating, drinking, smoking and going to the washroom and upon completion of work involving isocyanates. - Clean up and dispose of spilled components promptly. Each mobile spraying unit should carry a spill kit. This should contain decontaminants for the isocyanate components (these decontaminants form more stable compounds that can be disposed of safely) and absorbent materials for the polyol/amine catalyst mixture. G40michael@aol.com wrote: > > I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local > insulating > contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be > non- > toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am > considering its > use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to > run any > addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the > foam > only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody > have any > experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. > G. Michael Molnar > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 08:51:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13726 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11601 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26607; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:43:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23866 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.134] (pm1a4.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.134]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09774; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <340F98BB.90466A7E@cow-net.com> References: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: ureathane foam Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 >I'm not sure exactly the form of spray foam your are referring to, >traditionally concerns with polyurethane foams have been with expanding >or blowing agents and their contributions to ozone deplition. I think >Icynene (sp.?) is a non cfc or hcfc foam but as far as I know they all >contain isocyanates, among other things, for which their is some info. >below. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > A few more comments on polyurethane: Most closed-cell polyurethane today (typically 2 pound per cubic foot) is blown with HCFC-141b. This is much better environmentally than the CFC-11 that was used until a few years ago. But HCFC-141b is the worst of the HCFCs from an ozone-depletion standpoint and is currently scheduled to be phased out by the year 2003. Only one manufacturer that I know of, Foam Tech in North Thetford, Vermont (802/333-4333), uses a totally non-ozone-depleting blowing agent (an HFC) for closed-cell polyurethane. They call this foam "Super Green" and it costs somewhat more than their standard product. Open-cell polyurethane foam for building applications is currently produced by two or three manufacturers, including the Canadian companies Icynene and Demilec. These have zero ozone-depletion effect, because they are blown using water (which produces carbon dioxide as the foaming gas). Because the CO2 leaks out of the open cells and it replaced with air, this type of insulation doesn't insulate as well as closed-cell polyurethane with a low-conductivity HCFC gas in the cells. The R-value of open-cell polyurethane is R-3.6 to R-4 per inch. With any polyurethane foam, however, pay careful attention to safety during installation (see the information John provided with his posting). Both Icynene and Demilec require installers to use full SUPPLIED-AIR breathing equipment during installation. Isocyanates are very toxic, as readers of this discussion group may recall in the thread on MDI resins used in "formaldehyde-free" particleboard (the chemistry is very similar). -Alex Wilson Editor and publisher Environmental Building News (complete back issues through April of this year are now available on our E Build Library CD-ROM--for information, check out our Web site: www.ebuild.com.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 11:55:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17033 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27162 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA29691; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:46:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28718; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.175.199] (dd43-199.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.175.199]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20297; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:48:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:48:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199709051548.IAA20297@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Stock Home Plans / Energy Efficient - Green To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, AESP-net@aesp.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Subject: Stock Home Plans / Energy Efficient - Green Bldgs. From: Bion Howard, Building Environmental Science & Tech To: EEBA list, Green Building List, Energy Services Professionals ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to all the people submitting leads or interest statements about home plans. So far there has been a fairly good response to our previous request for information on available home plans that have energy efficient or "green" building characteristics. We are analyzing the submissions for the listing now. We will gladly accept any further submissions of information on home plans through September 20, 1997. --------------- Contact Information------------------ Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 12:33:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17398 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:33:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06018 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00616; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:25:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00052 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16016; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:35:03 -0700 Message-Id: <341032F2.31B7@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:27:30 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "LEVIN, HAL" , Lisa McManigal Subject: GBlist: GBLIST: GREEN SHOPPING CENTERS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 LISA: The City of Davis, CA had a General Plan in the 70's and 80's that limited the size of shopping centers. The intent was to make the grocery stores & others services within easy walking or biking distance in this "City of Bikes." It seemed to work very well until the City Council changed, the city faced major budget short-falls, neighboring cities put in super shopping malls, and the only major source of revenue for Davis was new develoment and new shopping centers. Davis has a web site at: http://www.city.davis.ca.us/ It includes the new draft General Plan, which has had a lot of citizen input over the last few years but now appears to be ignored by the City Council. Also, the California Air Resources Board has funded research on transportation issues around shopping centers: http://www.arb.ca.gov (contact Research Division, Economics section). And the Institute of Transportation Studies, both at UC Davis and UC Berkeley, have probably looked at this issue...Hal Levin has worked on green bldg. design for Walmart, I believe (hleven@cruzio.com)...we get a lot of complaints about nail salons polluting their neighbors in strip malls, but I don't know of similar problems in the big malls. BTW, a green shopping center seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron, given the huge amount of auto & truck traffic that they generate. I think some locales are now requiring better bus/transit access; light-rail systems such as Portland's actually create a corridor of high-density development with easier access to shopping services. Good luck on your project, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 14:09:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18544 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27974 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02590; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:01:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02754 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw233133.gte.net [207.115.233.133]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id NAA20000; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:03:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <340F7290.251@gte.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:46:40 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lisa McManigal CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Lisa, While relatively insignificant compared to Real Goods, I'd take a look at the Mall of America in Minneapolis for waste management and the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for energy and water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. Please share your findings with the list. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 15:50:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20133 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA21875 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA04956; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:39:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05989 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:39:23 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA28167 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970905154007_1023289459@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: CeramiChas@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Kadulski comments on housing costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 In a message dated 8/26/97 12:59:37 AM, you wrote: << Most people that buy a home have no idea what goes into it. They only know if they like what they see, just like buying a car.>> Hi folks, Been busy. Trying to catch up with stuff now. I have frequently been frustrated by this phenomena. Two things come to mind. The first is Albert Einstein using one soap to wash his clothes, face, dishes and hair because he couldn't choose between the many soaps at the market. Voting with your dollars only works well when the buyer has craft knowledge of the product. Einstein did not have craft knowledge of surfactant chemistry. The second thing is something I heard Dave Van Ronk say to a coffee house owner when the sound equipment kept fritzing - I work decades to become a professional so I can work for amateur club owners. Two facets of the same diamond, eh? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 16:10:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20457 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26881 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05556; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA06592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:01:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06583 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:01:44 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA00467 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970905160115_-633522309@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: CeramiChas@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: (Some) affordable house design strategies Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 In a message dated 8/28/97 8:42:07 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Charlie, I like the idea of using ceramics. I recall seeing some ceramic panels used in Japanese manufactured housing that were structural, finished on two sides and provided a combination of thermal insulation and mass that looked to me like it would be good in climates with primarily cooling loads. Know anything about them? Or similar products? Give me an update. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 19:09:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25175 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04536 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03070; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01512 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (lnngdial77.voyager.net [207.74.103.77]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.5/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA10397 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34105822.26C9@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 19:06:10 +0000 From: Pat Ballentine Reply-To: Ballentine@voyager.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Planet Neighborhood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 Greenbuilder Educators: Some of this list's members are organizations which conduct educational activities. Those members and others will want to check out "Planet Neighborhood" at http://www.weta.org/planet/materials.shtml This site describes a 3 part PBS series which asks for community partners and provides a chance for active participation. "Planet Neighborhood" is about the ways creative people across the nation have used innovative technologies to preserve the envrionment. Hosted by architect Wm. McDonough, dean at Univ. of Virginia, the show broadcasts on SEPTEMBER 8. Check local PBS stations for time. When you get into the information, you'll see there are FREE materials available, including videos, "The Home","The Car", and "Wetlands Technology". What a deal! Pat Ballentine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 19:10:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25185 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04717 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03133; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:03:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01629 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709052303.TAA01629@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.106]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA219 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:10:45 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:09:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: concrete waterproofing Reply-to: pvisser@img.net In-reply-to: <199709040600.CAA20049@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > > Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing > > Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean > retaining walls ? > >In canada there is a product called "XYPEX" that uses a crystalline sealer that forms inside the concrete. They have been around a long time, surely you can find their name in some expensive spec guide. > prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 20:11:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26295 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15700 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA04140; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:03:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03082 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a8138.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.129.56]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA00449 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709060005.RAA00449@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: GBlist: waterproofer Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Xypex Chemical Corporation 13731 Mayfield Place Richmond, B.C., Canada V6V 2G9 1-604-273-5265 FAX 1-604-270-0451 Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 6 02:17:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01027 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA19246 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08447; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08470 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.67] (p67.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.67]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04059 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:18:04 GMT Message-Id: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Stucco Date: Sat, 6 Sep 97 00:14:03 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Joyce Coppinger wrote: >What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for >strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't >crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw cycles, >moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco products >are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same or >similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? I've spent a bit of time researching stucco, and I still know amazingly little about this important material. I would like to hear other's replies. First some terms, all of which apply to the Southwest only, and are totally casual and unofficial. "Stucco" tends to mean whatever is applied to the exterior, and "plaster" means its on the interior. Whats called "traditional" stucco is cementitious; its usually applied in 3 coats ("scratch", "brown", and "color"). Of course, this isn't traditional at all; that would be mud. The word is used to differentiate from the acrylics, such as Dry-Vit, etc, which are essentially heavy duty paints. I have no idea what you might mean by a "polymer", unless it was mistaken for acrylic, or is one of the roof coating products more common in commercial and industrial construction. So there are three general residential classes of stucco: 1. mud; 2. cement; 3. synthetic (acrylic). These are often mixed together. For example, it is rare for someone today to use a pure mud; it is usually "stabilized" with a percentage of cement. Thus, there is a huge range of possibilities, plus all the additives to the above (cactus juice, horse hair, sheep blood, etc). A fun treatment is to use a cementitious stucco, but utilizing sand from your site for the mix; thus you get a truly harmonious color scheme. In practice however, I think the choices narrow to something much more manageable. Straw bale requires 3 coats, due to the gaps to fill, which mandates either a mud/cement or cement base. Then the color coat can be either acrylic or cementitous. Frankly, I think this is simply personal choice; they both work fine. Which brings us back to your question regarding "a breathable wall which won't crack over time". I find this "breathable" question somewhat annoying, in part because I don't know enough myself, in part because I think its a false alarm, and in part because I suspect it doesn't matter. 1. If its cementitious or mud, it will crack, and often not over very much time. Guaranteed. If a stucco doesn't crack, then its not a "natural" product. Sorry about that. The mud stucco's were usually refinished on a regular basis. The hairline cracks in the cementitous products are considered to be a cosmetic issue only. The acrylics stretch and cover the hairline cracks in the underlying basecoats. 2. Personally, I wonder how much the two differ in breathability anyway. Imagine being inside a sealed room with no openings, with one encased in 3/4" of concrete, and the other encased in the same with an 1/8" of paint on top. I think you would suffocate in either one. Maybe not though; I would love to hear the air transmission ratings for these different stucco products from a more technically proficient list subscriber. 3. At any rate, "breathability" in walls seems easily achieved by opening a window. The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. Its much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time by studying the problem). Probably the most common treatment in the SW, is to use a cementitious basecoat (2 for strawbale or adobe, 1 coat for anything else), that has fiberglass mixed in for cracking resistance (required by code if doing a single base coat). Then an acrylic is used for the color coat. Good luck on this one. Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow, Boulder, CO Fruit flies like a banana". ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 6 02:17:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01037 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA19314 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08502; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08499 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.67] (p67.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.67]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04066 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:18:08 GMT Message-Id: <199709060618.GAA04066@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam Date: Sat, 6 Sep 97 00:14:07 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Michael Molnar wrote: >I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local insulating >contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be non- >toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am considering its >use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to run any >addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the foam >only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody have any >experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. If you like "natural", stay away from this. It's pretty wierd stuff. But it works well. I sprayed it on the outside of a compressed earth block home. The blocks were dry stacked (no motar); this foam served not only to insulate the whole house (I think its more like R6-7/inch), but also was the waterproofing material, AND it even served a structural role by sticking the blocks together. An inexpensive and blazingly fast way to build a house. Finally, the rounded corners contributed to the "adobe" look we wanted to achieve. However, I would never use it on the inside of a house, unless it was to mitigate problems or other issues. It's overkill for one; Icynene or other products would seem to be more suitable. I question its environmental impact, although I don't fully understand this issue. And lastly, once you've touched it, most people would not want it near their living space. Regarding wiring, I think that is not a consideration; it will be problem regardless of what material you use, so run whatever you can imagine now, and note there are ways to surface wire that aren't bad. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 7 13:45:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28198 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21688 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29354; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA00808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA00804 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA03758 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970907133707_-1632738940@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: G40michael@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: ureathane foam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 In a message dated 9/7/97 1:12:02 AM, you wrote: <> Hi, Terry here. I've used foamed in place polyurethane in many applications over the years. The things that most struck me about it are: 1) it's foamed with a refrigerant (which is how gets a high R-value - like R-10 per inch or so the day it's foamed. The refrigerant begins outgassing immediately according to Ficke's law of diffusion, eventually stablizing at around R-5 per inch) 2) refrigerants contribute to global atmospheric changes that are bad news for humans and a large number of other species (probably good news for a whole different set of species) 3) they contain isocyanurates, which are a) potent chemical sensitizers and b) highly toxic. The burden of these two things is born by workers who manufacture the resins or use the resins to manufacture other products and people who live near the manufacturing sites (according to the polyurethane assoication the reason most workers leave industries where urethane resins are used is because they have developed disabling sensitivites to the isocynurates) 4) although widely reported as a fire hazard because of the toxicity and smoke developed numbers, they have the same smoke developed and toxicity values as white pine - very, very bad if you breathe it. I beleive that means that it should not be exposed in interior spaces or return plenums to meet any of the national codes. I beleive this qualm is a fifth order effect with regard to fire safety. It is far more important to air seal a building to prevent the quick spread of fire and smoke. 5) don't spray it around electrical wires. Electrical wires are rated for current flow with air surrounding them so they can cool convectively. Sealing them in a high R value foam is probably ok for the loads most circuits see, but it is a step towards the edge of a cliff - overheated wiring causing fire. In combination with a couple of other steps towards the edge, like a nearby source of heat and a couple of overloaded circuits - why risk it? The insulators I used always sprayed around the wiring so it was left exposed. 6) it sticks to everything except polyethylene (damp dirty rocks, wood, wet concrete, metal). There is nothing that works so effectively at insulating and air sealing nooks, crannies and odd shapes (rim joists, cantilevered overhangs, bay and bow windows, skylight vaults, crawlspace walls). Oh, yeah, it especially sticks to skin, clothes, boots and is like a colossal darg to breathe 'cause it sticks to lung tissue too. Installers need full, fitted respiratory protection for particles and gases. There are some solvents available that will clean it up while it is still tacky (seconds), after that it wears off. 7) sprayed into stud cavities, the entire wall becomes a structural panel. Good when using exterior foam board to cut down the stud losses with let in T bracing. It also generally expanded out past the stud surface and needed to be ground or knocked off. Figure a day of clean-up. 8) it's relatively expensive, and many of the benefits can be achieved with high density blown or glue sprayed cellulose. The foam is far more impermeable to moisture migration than the cellulose. I think that's all my experience with the stuff. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 09:24:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11031 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18964 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22264; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:15:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from webserve.kvinc.com ([207.100.217.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18629 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by webserve.kvinc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BCBC38.97C4D160@webserve.kvinc.com>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:21:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Susan Szalla To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: commerical constr. market Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:21:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 I have noticed that most of the information that I find on "green building" is for the home building market. At this moment I am particularly interested in learning about sustainable building methods and materials that can be effectively utilized by contractors working in the institutional and commercial markets. If anyone has information about books, products, web sites, contacts, etc., that can help me in my pursuit please let me know. Thanks, Susan Szalla SAS@KVINC.COM ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 11:11:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12419 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10502 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24756; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (ns.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21004 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42628>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:16:07 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01INE7LIQA1E00127Q@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:05:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:05:07 -0600 Subject: GBlist: cold solvent weld To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01INE7LIQJOK00127Q@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 A new ballet floor is being installed in the building where I work - thankfully being taped down rather than glued - but the joints are to be joined together with a cold solvent weld. The technical name on the can is *tetraphydrofuranne*. It is highly inflamable - explossive - and the material with it says it is considered safe because of the small amounts used. The contractor says he will use about 1/2 to 2/3 of a quart container. I obviously won't be around when this is being applied - but will have to be in the same building w/in 48 hours. The building is quite large - single story - but all connected by air circulation system. -Any idea how long this will outgas, and to what extent? The purpose of the weld is to provide a supple joint that will expand and contract with heat - so it is not a hard drying agent. - Any idea what alternatives might be available that would be less toxic, but would still provide the necessary join. Any common compounds to carpet glue? I have not been able to go back into our church that re-carpeted 2 years ago - and I suspect the glue. I appreciate any help you can give. Thanks Lyle Rebbeck LRebbeck@acd.mhc.ab.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 18:46:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20588 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26798 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06055; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:38:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04058 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:38:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gaudi@juno.com Received: (from gaudi@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SjQ28992; Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:39:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBlist General Conditions Spec Language Message-ID: <19970908.153924.8518.5.gaudi@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-30 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:39:02 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 Kurt, regarding your question on spec language. The general conditions and specifications are included in the project manual which is a subset of the bidding documents. A section on waste management comes under Division 1, section 01500; Construction Facilities and Temporary controls, Periodic Cleaning. Include your construction waste management plan there and reference it to section 01700 Contract Closeout and section 00700 General Requirements. This may require you to write a standard spec that includes: General 1.01 Requirements Included 1.02 Related Requirements 1.03 Waste Management Goals 1.04 Waste Management Plan 1.05 Recycling 1.06 Reuse 1.07 Materials Sorting 1.08 Recycling Economics Worksheet [ if applicable] 1.09 List of Recycling centers and haulers Products not applicable Execution not applicable Daniel J. Goudy Architect enviro dzine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 23:16:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25529 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28040 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12565; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:04:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10526 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA13520; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3414BBFD.6A2B481C@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:01:17 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 A quick note on breathability and latex/acrylic mediums. I came upon a reference for a european iaq research project that focused on mold growth between layers of latex paint (bathroom area focus) and between drywall and latex. Anyone familiar with this study or similar ones. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Buzz Burrell wrote: > > On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Joyce Coppinger wrote: > > >What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for > >strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't > >crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw > cycles, > >moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco > products > >are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same > or > >similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? > > I've spent a bit of time researching stucco, and I still know > amazingly > little about this important material. I would like to hear other's > replies. > > First some terms, all of which apply to the Southwest only, and are > totally casual and unofficial. "Stucco" tends to mean whatever is > applied to the exterior, and "plaster" means its on the interior. > Whats > called "traditional" stucco is cementitious; its usually applied in > 3 > coats ("scratch", "brown", and "color"). Of course, this isn't > traditional at all; that would be mud. The word is used to > differentiate from the acrylics, such as Dry-Vit, etc, which are > essentially heavy duty paints. I have no idea what you might mean by > a > "polymer", unless it was mistaken for acrylic, or is one of the roof > coating products more common in commercial and industrial > construction. > So there are three general residential classes of stucco: 1. mud; 2. > cement; 3. synthetic (acrylic). > > These are often mixed together. For example, it is rare for someone > today to use a pure mud; it is usually "stabilized" with a percentage > of > cement. Thus, there is a huge range of possibilities, plus all the > additives to the above (cactus juice, horse hair, sheep blood, etc). > A > fun treatment is to use a cementitious stucco, but utilizing sand from > your site for the mix; thus you get a truly harmonious color scheme. > > In practice however, I think the choices narrow to something much more > manageable. Straw bale requires 3 coats, due to the gaps to fill, > which > mandates either a mud/cement or cement base. Then the color coat can > be > either acrylic or cementitous. Frankly, I think this is simply > personal > choice; they both work fine. > > Which brings us back to your question regarding "a breathable wall > which > won't > crack over time". > > I find this "breathable" question somewhat annoying, in part because I > don't know enough myself, in part because I think its a false alarm, > and > in part because I suspect it doesn't matter. > > 1. If its cementitious or mud, it will crack, and often not over very > much time. Guaranteed. If a stucco doesn't crack, then its not a > "natural" product. Sorry about that. The mud stucco's were usually > refinished on a regular basis. The hairline cracks in the cementitous > products are considered to be a cosmetic issue only. The acrylics > stretch and cover the hairline cracks in the underlying basecoats. > > 2. Personally, I wonder how much the two differ in breathability > anyway. > Imagine being inside a sealed room with no openings, with one encased > in > 3/4" of concrete, and the other encased in the same with an 1/8" of > paint > on top. I think you would suffocate in either one. Maybe not though; > I > would love to hear the air transmission ratings for these different > stucco products from a more technically proficient list subscriber. > > 3. At any rate, "breathability" in walls seems easily achieved by > opening > a window. > The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal > for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. > Its > much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time > by > studying the problem). > > Probably the most common treatment in the SW, is to use a cementitious > basecoat (2 for strawbale or adobe, 1 coat for anything else), that > has > fiberglass mixed in for cracking resistance (required by code if doing > a > single base coat). Then an acrylic is used for the color coat. > > Good luck on this one. > > Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow, > Boulder, CO Fruit flies like a banana". > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 08:47:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01510 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25123 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21019; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:39:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18237 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA00242; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 In a message dated 9/8/97 11:38:18 PM, you wrote: <> Hi, I got mountains of studies on fungal growth in my files, but not this one. I'd sure be interested in the study you recall. I'm not familiar with that study, but I have a fair amount of direct experience growing and dealing with mold and a fair amount of training in indoor biology. Mold, like any living creature is looking for food, water, shelter and a way to make babies (mold is a bit more broad minded about reproductive methods than mammals). For food it needs carbon, but has evolved to get rid of cellulose and lignin - old plant stuff. For water it needs a material to grow on that contains 65% or more the amount of water it takes to saturate the material. Latex paint an d the paper covering on wallboard are good sources of carbon. I find viable mold spores everywhere I sample, unless the surface has been sanitized. All it takes for fungal growth in latex paint or wallboard covering is enough water to get to the needed water activity in the material. So bathroom walls are good locations. In cooling mode, particularly if the house is running negative, the inner paper layer sheetrock beneath the paint is a good location for moisture accumulation by condensation, doubly so if there is vinyl wallpaper. In heating mode the same dynamic makes a good habitat for fungi in the outer stucco layer of the exterior walls, especially if the house is running positive. These problems are more likely in areas where there is a lot of moisture in the outdoor air, like the coastal states, or in sampwy microclimates. The biggest, most difficult to deal with fungal problems I've encoutered always seem to be in places with names like - Beaver River, Nine-Mile Swamp, and Buzzards Bay. In these places the mold grows on everything inside and out. In places where they get 7 inches of rain a year, it takes a special coincidence of events to make a habitat for mold. Jeeze, I kinda rambled on being professorial. Well, take what you like and leave the rest. Warm regards, Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 09:58:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02422 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09534 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23165; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA19953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:44:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet.calgary.ab.ca (srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca [198.161.243.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19948; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca(198.161.243.11) by srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ37034; Tue Sep 9 07:44:19 1997 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:44:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: "Shannon C. Dealy" Cc: Gregg Pulley , owly@mcn.net, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: heat pumps In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 Which manufacturer makes the most efficient ground/water coupled HP that can be operated from photovoltaics.I expect a COP of at least 4.5 (heating) for a liquid-to-liquid system, but am really interested in small units (design heat loss = 30,000 Btu/hr @ -24 dF) with COP of 12 (like Dennis Lee's HP) and environmentally-sound phase change mediums. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: , _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:06:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03925 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25283 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26103; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:58:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21813 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18009; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <34156364.A2A1BF51@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 07:55:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: HRV X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 Buzz Burrell wrote: > > The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal > for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. > Its > much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time > by > studying the problem). > I have to disagree in part or at least rephrase - I think an HRV is an ad hoc or bumper solution (and one that I think will breed a whole host of problems in the future). Fungal and bacterial growth in ductwork is a leading cause of SBS and difficult to control as ductwork can provide a good breeding ground for fungal activity. Fungal spores from 1 micron in size enter from supply air. A HEPA filter if tightly fitted can prevent entry but if not maintained can actually exacerbate the problem. Microbial activity inside the ductwork is difficult to control as the conditions that cause the activity are unseen and can be unpredictable. HRV may be a necessary solution at this point but I think brain time should be always reserved for a more fundamental understanding of basic materials. Cementious and masonry materials have an interesting ability to recover heat, retain moisture and transfer air. Moisture retained in and traveling through porous rock has been shown at a biological level an ability to host activity that can remove toxins from the air that are not normally water soluble. In other words there is a potential for indoor air purification as a function of materials used (another 'living machine' concept.) I am looking for some specifications for duct preparation, installation and maintenance schedules that are designed to minimize potential for contamination. The installation is for air supply, exhaust and heat recovery as a retrofit in an old house (4500sq.ft) for a MCS person. I originally wanted to manage supply and exhaust passively and manage heat recovery with an air to water exchange (heating is hydronic) which I still think is feasible but am having trouble with the general design, anyone have any suggestions or worked on something similar. Thanks, John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:11:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03986 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26350 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26246; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21964 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L_Q00242; Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:05:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: whawthorne@enermodal.com Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:51 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: low energy houses Message-ID: <19970909.084410.10478.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Question: Do you have some info on prototype low energy residences that have been built in the US? thanks Samantha ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:18:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04776 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28252 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26548; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22165 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm0a28.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06089; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709091511.LAA06089@pike.sover.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: commerical constr. market Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 11:13:51 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: "Susan Szalla" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 >I have noticed that most of the information that I find on "green >building" is for the home building market. At this moment I am >particularly interested in learning about sustainable building methods >and materials that can be effectively utilized by contractors working >in the institutional and commercial markets. If anyone has >information about books, products, web sites, contacts, etc., > that can help me in my pursuit please let me know. > >Thanks, >Susan Szalla >SAS@KVINC.COM > The content of Environmental Building News is pretty evenly split between topics of interest to commercial and residential designers and builders--at least that's been our intent--we'd love to hear how others find it! Also, we have just released our new E Build Library CD-ROM containing all back issues of the newsletter in text-searchable format, which should contain much of what you're looking for. In terms of other resources, there are many. All subscribers get a free copy of our annotated bibliography of green building information resources, which will next be update for December 1997 publication. Yours, Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:22:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04838 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29091 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26736; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22339 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm0a28.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07204; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709091516.LAA07204@pike.sover.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Planet Neighborhood Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 11:18:39 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 >Greenbuilder Educators: >Some of this list's members are organizations which conduct educational >activities. Those members and others will want to check out "Planet >Neighborhood" at >http://www.weta.org/planet/materials.shtml > >This site describes a 3 part PBS series which asks for community >partners and provides a chance for active participation. >"Planet Neighborhood" is about the ways creative people across the >nation have used innovative technologies to preserve the envrionment. >Hosted by architect Wm. McDonough, dean at Univ. of Virginia, the show >broadcasts on SEPTEMBER 8. Check local PBS stations for time. > >When you get into the information, you'll see there are FREE materials >available, including videos, "The Home","The Car", and "Wetlands >Technology". > >What a deal! >Pat Ballentine > I thought I'd mention that several of the sponsors of this list have been hard at work for the last few months on the Greenhome CD-ROM that is part of this list of resources. CREST produced the CD for WETA, and Alex Wilson wrote most of the content. It consists of a virtual walk-through of a house that is modelled on one that John Abrams and his South Mountain Company built recently on Marthas Vineyard. We have yet to see the final version, but it should be a lot of fun. Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 16:02:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11754 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08461 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05024; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01920 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:52:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iris.pti.nw.dc.us (iris.pti.nw.dc.us [199.75.60.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA01916 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from station6.pti.nw.dc.us ([199.75.60.86]) by iris.pti.nw.dc.us (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA19869; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:56:33 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970909195508.00a16e64@pti.nw.dc.us> X-Sender: wood-lewis@pti.nw.dc.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:55:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael Wood-Lewis" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Building NW Conference Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Attn: Greenbuilders: Sustainable Building Northwest Conference and Trade Show offers a great opportunity to learn how to move greenbuilding theory into practice and to network with professionals in the field. The conference will be held October 27-29, 1997, in Seattle. For more info: http://pti.nw.dc.us/sus.htm O'Brien & Company P.O. Box 10705 Bainbridge Island, WA 98110 (206) 842-8995 (206) 842-8717 fax obrien@halcyon.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 17:10:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12637 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28044 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06592; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04066 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06450; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:01:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3415B89C.A3E741C2@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 13:59:08 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TBren46501@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 Hi Terry, I came upon the reference in a search at Elselvier about a year ago - the thing that caught my attention was that the bacterial and fungal growth that was being investigated was between layers of latex paint. I'll see if I can find the publication reference again, or maybe somebody else might know of the study. Take care John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. TBren46501@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/8/97 11:38:18 PM, you wrote: > > < a > reference for a european iaq research project that focused on mold > growth between layers of latex paint (bathroom area focus) and between > drywall and latex. Anyone familiar with this study or similar ones.>> > > Hi, > > I got mountains of studies on fungal growth in my files, but not this > one. > I'd sure be interested in the study you recall. I'm not familiar > with that > study, but I have a fair amount of direct experience growing and > dealing with > mold and a fair amount of training in indoor biology. Mold, like any > living > creature is looking for food, water, shelter and a way to make babies > (mold > is a bit more broad minded about reproductive methods than mammals). > For > food it needs carbon, but has evolved to get rid of cellulose and > lignin - > old plant stuff. For water it needs a material to grow on that > contains 65% > or more the amount of water it takes to saturate the material. Latex > paint an > d the paper covering on wallboard are good sources of carbon. I find > viable > mold spores everywhere I sample, unless the surface has been > sanitized. All > it takes for fungal growth in latex paint or wallboard covering is > enough > water to get to the needed water activity in the material. So > bathroom walls > are good locations. In cooling mode, particularly if the house is > running > negative, the inner paper layer sheetrock beneath the paint is a good > location for moisture accumulation by condensation, doubly so if there > is > vinyl wallpaper. In heating mode the same dynamic makes a good > habitat for > fungi in the outer stucco layer of the exterior walls, especially if > the > house is running positive. These problems are more likely in areas > where > there is a lot of moisture in the outdoor air, like the coastal > states, or in > sampwy microclimates. The biggest, most difficult to deal with fungal > problems I've encoutered always seem to be in places with names like - > Beaver > River, Nine-Mile Swamp, and Buzzards Bay. In these places the mold > grows on > everything inside and out. In places where they get 7 inches of rain > a year, > it takes a special coincidence of events to make a habitat for mold. > > Jeeze, I kinda rambled on being professorial. Well, take what you > like and > leave the rest. > > Warm regards, > Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 20:59:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17410 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23075 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA11671; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA10774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:50:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10770 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:50:12 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA27876; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: mcshea1@gte.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Cindy, Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: << the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for energy and water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact of the Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some prototye daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, the goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and product sales in areas of natural light.} Looking for data.... Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 09:52:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25307 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22676 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23754; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com ([207.205.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23308 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:07 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id J}V04280; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:42 EDT To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:43:49 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Message-ID: <19970910.085041.3630.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 No hard data to offer but I know from experience that most Wal Mart stores have automated their lighting and other electrical systems. Master control is in Little Rock, Ark. We often use Wal Mart's success story in automation as an example when introducing this technology to the less (shall we say) educated. There are a lot of people who continue to believe that green building only means sod roofs and grass walls. We think it can be that and more. On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) RCMathis1@aol.com writes: >Cindy, > >Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: ><< the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for >energy and > water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> > > >Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact >of the >Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some >prototye >daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, >the >goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and >product sales >in areas of natural light.} > >Looking for data.... > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 10:46:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26751 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06473 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24995; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24790 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw231132.gte.net [207.115.231.132]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA26756; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3416B17F.755A@gte.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:41:03 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RCMathis1@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Chris, I don't have any follow up info on Walmart sales as a result of daylighting. I suggest you try Jan Mauldin, Director, Sales Promotions. 501-273-8228 V or 501-273-1931 F. Good luck, Cindy Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 10:47:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26800 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06527 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25084; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24812 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709101439.KAA24812@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.124]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA43 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:47:32 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:46:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #385 Reply-to: pvisser@img.net In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 I follow the strawbale list and there has been a most interesting exchange on thermal flywheel, mass and natural comfort systems, including an appearance from nick pine himself, the author of many creative solutions for low energy low cost climate control strategies, and i posted some of these from my files. I am sure the readers of this list would enjoy a sampling of this. BTW where is the sept. 10 issue? prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 12:17:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29874 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28668 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27173; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:06:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27455 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.103] (pa-ppp18.hevanet.com [204.119.60.103]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05533 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:08:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: obrien@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709101439.KAA24812@solstice.crest.org> References: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:07:45 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #385 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 ****CURMUDGEON ALERT 9/10/97 9:06 AM PST**** ****CRANKY MESSAGE FOLLOWS**** ****YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED**** About Nick Pine and his ideas, I would just like to say, they are long on creativity but I would check those fussy little details, like, how they fit with known laws of physics. Mike >I follow the strawbale list and there has been a most interesting >exchange on thermal flywheel, mass and natural comfort systems, >including an appearance from nick pine himself, the author of many >creative solutions for low energy low cost climate control >strategies, and i posted some of these from my files. >I am sure the readers of this list would enjoy a sampling of this. >BTW where is the sept. 10 issue? > >prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 >refining simple home comforts to work with nature. >fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 21:16:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09063 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11718 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08752; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:07:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14001 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.7] (iplink007.crocker.com [205.246.4.7]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14952 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:10:10 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:15:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 Lisa >Is anybody aware of any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) >that have addressed green concerns? I'm looking for case studies where >energy or water efficiency, lighting, materials, smart land use plans or >waste management and other operational issues have been addressed, even on >a superficial level. Try Randy Croxton's office in New York City He and I were interviewed (separately) by a Boston-based shopping center developer who had good positive aspirations for turning their development product in this ("green") direction. I initially challenged their intention saying that I thought that shopping centers were (in concept) as "brown" as it comes. They countered.. we had a good, frank discussion. Croxton got the job though, and is now, presumably well advanced in design. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 23:59:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11407 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA21359 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11272; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:50:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17346 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.181.187] (dd49-187.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.181.187]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06776 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:52:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:52:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199709110352.UAA06776@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Air-Core Passive / Hybrid Heat Storage Info To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 Air-Core Passive / Hybrid Heat Storage Info In response to the posting by Ms. Howard (no relation) I have attached a listing of my publications in this area. We still periodically perform computer studies for designers intending to use concrete block underfloor or in-wall heat storage systems. Since 1984, I have conducted about twenty-five such design reviews, including homes, restaurants, and even a funeral home. The system is low in cost and works well if properly sized fans are installed. One thing I would like to try is sizing a PV array / DC motor pair to optimize underfloor heat storage and seasonal ventilation in a sunspace. This would make sense for an off-grid building. Another idea would be to create a hybrid destratification system teamed with low temperature hydronic radiant floor heating. With proper control logic the HRF would only need aux heat some of the time, which could be supplied from a water heater or tankless unit. Might be pretty efficient approach in a micro-load home. Finally, most of the systems I worked on used "cull" blocks that were locally produced and would not otherwise have been good enough for wall construction (recycled block would work too). Have also seen metal forms used for this purpose, but they are fragile to work with and have potentially higher embodied energy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Air Core System / Building Related Publications // Bion Howard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Air Core System for Thermal Storage." (peer-reviewed) The Passive Solar Journal. ASES/SERI Vol. 3 No. 3. 1986. ASES, Boulder Co. "Air Core Systems for Passive and Hybrid Energy - Conserving Buildings." ASHRAE Transactions, V. 92. Pt. 2. 1986. (peer-reviewed) Atlanta, GA. "Residential Design Examples -- Hollow Core Masonry Under Floor and In-wall Remote Heat Storage." 1986 - 11th National Passive Solar Conference. ASES, Boulder Co. NCMA "TEK-Note – The Air Core System" National Concrete Masonry Association, Herndon, VA (in. Manual of Facts on Concrete Masonry, NCMA.) "Achieving a Balanced Approach." 10th Passive Solar Conference. 1985 ASES, Boulder Co. (Co author: John Spears, President -- Sustainable Design Group) "Measured Performance of a (Solar) Home Using Concrete Masonry." 8th National Passive Solar Conference. 1983. ASES, Boulder Co. "Determination of Passive Solar Collector Energy Balances Using Two Different Methods." (with W.F. Roberts, AIA) 7th National Passive Solar Conference. 1982. ASES, Boulder Co. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- These publications also contain references to other literature on embedded structural heat storage options. PS: if this dialogue is too "energy related" we could move it to the EEBA "ee-building@crest.org" list, sister to the venerable greenbuilding list. Comments and discussion is most welcome. --------------- Contact Information------------------ Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 00:17:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11552 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA25326 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11692; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17690; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709110410.AAA17690@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.224]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA247; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: no mail today Reply-to: pvisser@img.net CC: stawbale@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 no news today, how come? i got reactions back from other people, other mail, but nothing from crest, no duplicate postings, no SB either.... prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 00:17:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11552 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA25326 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11692; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17690; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709110410.AAA17690@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.224]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA247; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: no mail today Reply-to: pvisser@img.net CC: stawbale@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 no news today, how come? i got reactions back from other people, other mail, but nothing from crest, no duplicate postings, no SB either.... prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 12 03:26:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06096 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA11208 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA26749; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:17:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from r1.boston.juno.com (r1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.241]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27967 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by r1.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA08112 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XNK29164; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:31:46 EDT To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:25:16 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Walmart Message-ID: <19970911.212914.6678.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-41 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 I dont know many of the specifics about the results- however i lived in Lawrence for 5 years, and shopped there all the time- also know what areas of the project were "jokes of the town". May be able to find a phone number and contact name (for the environmental education person there) if there is an interest in talking with the store directly. I almost took a job as an intern as they were starting to build the one in CA, didnt- but also talked with the people in AK that knew more about it- could also get their info if wanted. Samantha On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) RCMathis1@aol.com writes: >Cindy, > >Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: ><< the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for >energy and > water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> > > >Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact >of the >Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some >prototye >daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, >the >goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and >product sales >in areas of natural light.} > >Looking for data.... > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 13 10:38:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01658 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13251 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09293; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:25:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cow.chelmsford.com (cow.chelmsford.com [199.103.186.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08407; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (cos-port32.chelmsford.com [199.103.186.132]) by cow.chelmsford.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA12662; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <341ABC59.57FB@chelmsford.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:16:25 -0700 From: Jim Rogers Reply-To: jrogers@chelmsford.com Organization: James K. Rogers, PE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jorg Ostrowski CC: "Shannon C. Dealy" , Gregg Pulley , owly@mcn.net, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: heat pumps References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 The efficiency depends on where it will be operated and whether its peak will be for heating or cooling. For geothermal heat pump applications in northern climates, the units from ECONAR in Anoka MN would be ideal. They are designed specifically for northern climates where heating loads predominate. For southern climates, where the opposite is true, units from either ClimateMaster or WaterFurnace may be better. If you need contacts at these companies let me know. Good luck. - Jim Rogers - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 10:01:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05552 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20957 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01660; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:47:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23888 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.146] (pm1a16.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.146]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25416 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:49:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:51:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Bamboo flooring info/experiences? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 For an upcoming article, I'm seeking any first-hand information or experiences using strip flooring made from bamboo. I'm aware of two companies selling it in the U.S.: Smith & Fong in San Francisco Bamboo Hardwoods in Seattle I also used to have contact with a Canadian company, Floorworks, but haven't seen anything from them for a long time. Any additional leads or comments will be most appreciated. Thanks, Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 10:30:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06083 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28180 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02222; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24665 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw002045.gte.net [207.175.2.45]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA01027 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341D4465.29A3@gte.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:21:25 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: NEW SUBCRIBER] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B6235487760" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B6235487760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the members of this list serve are more likely to have the answers Oliver seeks. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development --------------B6235487760 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay.gte.net ([207.115.153.25]) by sm2.gte.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release "2" ID# 0-32582L10S150000) with ESMTP id AAA18979 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:22:21 -0500 Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca (dns.uwindsor.ca [137.207.232.1]) by relay.gte.net with SMTP id HAA23441 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:23:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host pdomain.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be pdomain.uwindsor.ca Received: from pdomain.uwindsor.ca by pdomain.uwindsor.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.TT) id HAA06088; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:35:17 -0400 Received: from PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA by PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 387794 for ECDM@PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:33:55 -0400 Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca by pdomain.uwindsor.ca via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.TT) for id HAA05962; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:33:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host rajah-old.pworld.net.ph claimed to be rajah.pworld.net.ph Received: from oliver (ip115.pworld.net.ph [203.176.24.115]) by rajah.pworld.net.ph (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA06404 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:42:00 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: Oliver Rempillo Message-ID: <341D1F9B.B90E91AB@cryogen.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:44:27 +0800 Reply-To: Oliver Rempillo Sender: Environmentally Conscious Design & Mfg List From: Oliver Rempillo Subject: NEW SUBCRIBER To: Multiple recipients of list ECDM X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 I'm Oliver Rempillo a student and currently undertaking a design project. The project is to make a environmentally freindly computer workstation that is designed for schools (computer classrooms) and not for individual use. As you can see one of the major concern of this project is not only ergonomics but also how to make it environmetally friendly. It is the reason why I join this discussion group. Does any body out there know where I could get environmental freindly materials, such as plywood that doesn't use phenol formaldehyde or any harmful substances and any environmetally freindly materials that I could use. And where can I get some research materials for the design. Thanks. --------------B6235487760-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 11:12:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06620 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10712 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03832; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25800 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L^D27564; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:04 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmentally friendly workstation Message-ID: <19970915.094858.4503.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:04 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 Hi, Oliver wrote requesting info on environmentally friendly workstations. Here are some suggestions. For recycled content & IAQ consider either a wheatboard or exterior grade plywood substrate with a laminate of Environ or wood laminate from M. Bohlke. Also look at some of the products from Yemm & Hart using recycled plastic. An alternative substrate, but one that would have to be sealed, would be Gridcore. Be sure to include provisions for low energy task lighting. Also, Designtex makes a recycled content fabric for panels called "Play it Again Sam." Sincerely, Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. 561-852-4262 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 12:28:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07536 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02506 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06666; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28142 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.246.39] (1Cust39.max6.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.246.39]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24880; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709151617.JAA24880@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Bamboo flooring info/experiences? Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 09:16:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Nadav Malin" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Nadav The REDI database (www.oikos.com/redi/) lists three more companies. Plyboo America, Inc Bamboo Flooring International Corp Amati Bambu Ltd. I've contacted all three companies in the last three months, so chances are good that they're still around. Bruce >For an upcoming article, I'm seeking any first-hand information or >experiences using strip flooring made from bamboo. I'm aware of two >companies selling it in the U.S.: > >Smith & Fong in San Francisco > >Bamboo Hardwoods in Seattle > >I also used to have contact with a Canadian company, Floorworks, but >haven't seen anything from them for a long time. > >Any additional leads or comments will be most appreciated. > >Thanks, Nadav Malin >Environmental Building News ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 14:36:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09952 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14275 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04085; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:23:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02728 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15446; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id OAA17030; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Living Wall Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Hello GB-Heads; An amigo from Arizona asked me if I knew anything about the "Living Wall" (designed by Wolf Amelung ?) biological air filter/ conditioner that was installed in the Canada Life building in Toronto. All I had to offer was third-hand (and hand-waving at that ) cursory knowledge about it. ...ie A wall of volcanic rock with water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. Can anyone else on this List enlighten my desert friend with more/better information ? (I'm betting "Yes"). -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 18:06:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14099 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01249 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11655; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:50:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09884 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01373; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: <341DACDD.AFE8AF76@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:47:09 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Wall X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Hi Robert How much did you bet? There is a web site on the breathing wall at http://www.ists.ca/canlif.htm which is a site of one of the sponsors. The project is just as you described it "...i.e. A wall of volcanic rock with > water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and > there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to > remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. Here is a quote from Michael Dixon in a press release on the project > We have proved that a biological filter can actively remove significant > amounts of contaminants directly out of the air'', said Dr. Michael Dixon, who > heads the project for the University of Guelph. ``We are confident that > further experiments will corroborate these results and build on our knowledge > as we further challenge the plant system.'' > This development addresses the issues associated with sick building > syndrome or building related illness, which results as modern buildings, > designed to be air tight to facilitate heating and cooling, accumulate noxious > compounds. > The experiment forced low levels of the pollutants, formaldehyde, toluene > and trichloroethylene (TCE), commonly found in poor quality indoor air through > the water and plant biomass on the Breathing Wall of the Canada Life > Environmental Room. I spoke to Wolf Amelung about a year ago. He described a certain amount of skepticism on the part of some of the researchers involved. They felt that a certain number of water soluble contaminants would be affected by the process but (they) were surprised to find that substances such as toluene which are not water soluble were being removed by the process. The 'process' like all the best things in life is a mystery or to use a more acceptable term it is 'biological'. It is Wolf's opinion that the active elements are sub ecosystems of the overall semi aquatic life systems that were 'constructed' - in other words 'biological' - not unlike the wonderful 'schmutzdecke'. I was researching it for possible use in recirculating air in an indoor pool enclosure. I became interested in it again for possible use in purifying air for a MCS person but am concerned about biological contaminants. As far as I know no results have been published but I was planning to contact Dr. Dixon to see what information is available. One of Wolf's anecdotes was that the water system had to be shut down when the room was used as a boardroom as it caused everyone's bladder to overreact John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Robert W. Tom wrote: > > Hello GB-Heads; > > An amigo from Arizona asked me if I knew anything about the > "Living Wall" (designed by Wolf Amelung ?) biological air filter/ > conditioner that was installed in the Canada Life building in > Toronto. > > All I had to offer was third-hand (and hand-waving at that ) > cursory knowledge about it. ...ie A wall of volcanic rock with > water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and > there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to > remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. > > Can anyone else on this List enlighten my desert friend with > more/better information ? (I'm betting "Yes"). > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 18:09:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14155 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01868 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11799; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:53:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10024 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts5l11.pathcom.com (ts5l11.pathcom.com [209.112.16.95]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19020; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709152155.RAA19020@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:52:02 +0000 Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Wall Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Tom: There is a web-site for this wall. See: http://www.ists.ca/canlif.htm Hope this is helpful. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 20:19:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16452 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03387 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA14582; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:04:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from Bob.cstone.net (bob.cstone.net [205.197.102.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13198 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bstander.cstone.net (Dialin20.cstone.net [205.197.102.88]) by Bob.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40984U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA1550 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:07:07 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970915150003.0069133c@cstone.net> X-Sender: bstander@cstone.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:03:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bstander@cstone.net (Bella Stander) Subject: GBlist: Sources for decorative ceramic cabinet knobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 ArialI'm looking for Delft-style ceramic cabinet knobs. Bought some beautiful ones by mail about 10 years ago from a company called Dutch Tile, somewhere in PA (near Philly?), but I lost the catalog during a divorce and 4 moves in 3 states in 5 years. Does anyone have any info or recommendations? Thanks! --Bella Stander (central Va.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 02:27:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA21959 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01498 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA21814; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20652 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:20:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20648 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CKX11029; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:21:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:22:00 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #387: Walmart Message-ID: <19970915.222404.12462.6.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199709130600.CAA04569@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 Wendy The Walmart stores in Alaska are mostly like those everywhere else in the US,,,,On the edge of town, with a large parking lot, stoked with RV campers every night, which are taking business away from the campground accross the streeet.....I don't see anything benificial coming from them that is good for the community ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 10:36:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00156 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23537 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26733; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:23:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27165 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw233180.gte.net [207.115.233.180]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA21446; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:26:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341E96EA.4257@gte.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:25:46 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bella Stander CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sources for decorative ceramic cabinet knobs References: <3.0.32.19970915150003.0069133c@cstone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 Bella, You might want to go right to the source. There are two geniune delftware manufacturers in the Netherlands. The Delftse Pauw Delftweg 133 Delft, NL and The Porcelain Fles Rotterdamseweg 196 Delft, NL I don't know if they fill mail orders or send catalogs, but it's a start. They may have US distributors. And don't worry about writing in English. Everybody in the Netherlands speaks at least three languages, including great English. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 19:12:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10403 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29480 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07561; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:03:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14397 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts17l1.pathcom.com (ts17l1.pathcom.com [209.112.17.84]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19540 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709162305.TAA19540@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:01:57 +0000 Subject: GBlist: (Fwd) [webgrrls-toronto] Not web-oriented, but might be of int Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 Thought this might be of interest to some of the Canadians on this list. I hope it is not considered inappropriate to post it. Marilyn > > Please send this message to other appropriate addresses on your email >lists... > Let's Rally for Clean Solutions to Climate Protection > > > The Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment is meeting in Toronto, > preparing for the Framework Convention on Climate Change Meeting. > > > FRIDAY 19, SEPTEMBER 1997 > 1 P.M. TO 2:00 P.M. > > BARBARA SCOTT PARK > (across from the Delta Chelsea Hotel) > North side of Gerrard, just west of Yonge Street > > > Bring your signs, petitions, literature, banners and advice to the ministers > > * Demand that Canada sign a legally binding treaty at the Kyoto summit, > committing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by year 2005. > > * Demand that Canada support national, provincial and local projects to end > fossil fuel dependance and implement the conversion to renewable energy. > >Sponsored by Greenest City, Greenpeace, Toronto Environmental Alliance. __________________________________________________________________________ http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 20:34:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11909 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17580 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA09267; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA16441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:22:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16437 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.107.175] (hdn107-175.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.107.175]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA19212 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:25:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:25:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199709170025.RAA19212@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Attn.: bandwidth vampires To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199709160600.CAA20327@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 RE: many postings since about mid-August 1997 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Please do not post unnecessary garbage like message headers and routing listings with your information. It is virtual polution. Also, only re-post the excerpted meat of a question you are trying to answer. Many participants are good at this, others are annoyingly bad. OK? End of rant. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bion Howard, Building Environmental Science & Technology ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 17 18:38:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29409 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02029 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05591; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:30:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16256 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.164] (p164.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.164]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA14586 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:38:24 GMT Message-Id: <199709172238.WAA14586@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: The Dog Days Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:34:51 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 GreenBuilding List activity seems a little slow recently (either that or my 'net connection isn't working right again). I've been missing my bedtime reading. It almost makes me think the people on this List are actually working for a living and don't have time to aimlessly discuss what they spend 40+ hours a week thinking about already. In that spirit, I have a few questions that maybe someone could help me with: 1. I've been perplexed by some of the issues in this business. I need to know how to build a house that is totally energy efficient, is made only from ecological materials, provides excellent indoor air quality, will be readily code-approved, and is inexpensive. Please send detailed specifications on such a structure. (Post directly to me, not the List; I don't want anyone else to know). 2. A client of mine wants a house with all arch top windows, hardwood floors, tile roof, hydronic heat, photovoltaic panels, water provided by a deep well, and a 500 SF master suite, for a total Hard Cost of $72,000. Please send me complete blueprints for this house. 3. My plumbers and my electricians almost got in a fist-fight yesterday. Seems the problem is they are equal in the pecking order, and so they keep trying to push each other around (the drywallers and insulators aren't on site yet). Which one gets to pick on the other? I've searched all my building manuals, but haven't found the correct graph or table to clear up this confusion. Please advise. 4. I just got a demo disk in the mail for a software program that will save me tons of time scheduling and estimating projects. However, that was three weeks ago; I haven't had time to look at the disk yet. Please provide the reference number for the spec sheet on how to deal with this particular situation. I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Thanks in advance for your advice. Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow; Bolder Building Fruit flies like a banana". ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 17 21:47:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06310 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15337 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09165; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA21058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:38:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21042; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA97258; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:44 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cruickshank Cc: "'INTERNET:strawbale@crest.org'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Cold Storage In-Reply-To: <199709172023_MC2-20D8-FA22@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Further to the below message, some may be interested in our latest modifications to our 1st generation cold closet. This 44 CF is a root cellar on the main floor of our sustainable home. Two motorized dampers with a small reused fan on the lower one. Two reused refrigerator thermostats open the motorized dampers and turn on the fan in either of the following 2 situations: 1) too warm inside the cool closet 2) too hot outside (ie. sun is warming up the east side) It has operated in a manual mode for the past 3 winters with temperatures 3-8 dC for 95% of the time. Last year the fridge was off for 7 months 3 weeks bringing our yearly cost for keeping food cold to $4.50 (cool closet + Vestfrost fridge/freezer).We have not finalized the control of this automatic system yet since we just completed it. _____________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS (below) _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, John Cruickshank wrote: > The source of the coldness would be a modified refrigeration system, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 12:39:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14245 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19409 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27357; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:31:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin24.mail.aol.com (emout36.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06696; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:30:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin24.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA14314; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918122959_-900819296@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: UPDATE: the search for window horror stories... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 Greetings green and energy-efficient folk! Thought you might like a brief update on the status of the "window horror stories" search. First, THANKS to EVERYONE that sent materials in. Fortunately for ME but unfortunately for many, there are TOO MANY such real world horror stories about windows and doors and skylights..... and it is obviously an area where some serious education is needed. Here are a few received so far.... ALL worthy of potential list discussion... 1. Label between the glass in an IG unit. (installed, believe it or not....) 2. Patio doors installed upside down (many times) 3. Patio doors installed backward (too many times) 4. "Flying" tilt-in sash during typical wind storms. 5. Shimming nightmares. 6. Expansive foam nightmares..... ALL product types. 7. Duct Tape as flashing material "thousands of uses" 8. Pepsi cans as the "rest of the flashing"... 9. What are these sash reinforced with? Keep those "horror story" cards and letter and e-mails coming!!!! We are trying to make the EEBA conference session on windows as interesting and informative as possible. Please send any more "horror stories" you may have, OR, BETTER YET, COME TO THE EEBA conference and share your experience personally!!!! (We already have some people bringing videos of real world exampes!) November 5-9, 1997 in Denver. Thanks again for all your help to date! Keep sending those pictures and slides and stories (even though they keep me up at night....) ;^) Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 14:09:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15422 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16651 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29044; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09698 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:00:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from afceeb1.brooks.af.mil (afceeb1.brooks.af.mil [140.140.32.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09693 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: kkivela@afceeb1.brooks.af.mil Received: by afceeb1.brooks.af.mil with VINES-ISMTP; Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:06:23 CDT Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:05:58 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Reply-To: Subject: GBlist: fwd: C&D recycling info request X-Incognito-SN: 490 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.108 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 ------------- Original Text From: KAREN KIVELA@EQ@Broo-AFCEE, on 9/17/97 2:18 PM: To: smtp[owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] >>I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction >>wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have >>tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone >>know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this >>information? Any help would be greatly appriciated. >Ah..."I've searched the Web", thus I must have absolutely exhausted the >readily available reference materials on this subject in ANY decent sized >library...whoops, I've spent more than five minutes on this project, time to >start asking around. Frankly, I resent these "please do my research for me" >posts ... Ma'am, weren't you just a little harsh here ? How much trouble would it be for anyone who knows of a reliable information source on C&D recycling, to simply pass it on to this student and to the rest of the list? I also need information about this and would appreciate any knowledgeable responses. There are many estimates floating around, with various degrees of credibility, and frankly I am not sure who to believe. I value the expertise of the readers of this list and hope someone can respond... if it wouldn't be too much trouble. Thank you, Karen Kivela Air Force Center for Environmental Excellence (yes, the AF is trying to be "green" too!) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 14:43:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15803 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27527 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29701; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:34:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10633 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-8 #22480) with SMTP id <0EGPVIK3U001G2@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256516.00662BDA ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: GBlist: C&D recycling info request To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <85256516.00657BF3.00@RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 Original question: I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this information? Any help would be greatly appriciated. My response: Actually, quite a good question. It turns out that only very spotty records are kept on the fate of C&D wastes. I have tried to find the data, too, and it's just not out there. Or, perhaps I should say that what's out there is not robust enough to withstand analytical scrutiny. EPA's Office of Solid Waste has a study underway to estimate the quantities of C&D wastes generated, we expect the report to be available this Fall. Hope that helps. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 15:27:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16261 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13579 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00701; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11897 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:19:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11893 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38] (may be forged)) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA20281 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: RE: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 I have a copy of a report titled "Characterization of Waste Streams in the Three Rivers Solid Waste Authority Study Area [7 counties near] Aiken, South Carolina" that contains some C&D numbers...such as 745,467 tons of waste were generated within the study area in 1996, of which 97,381 tons were C&D waste, of which 30 tons were recycled. If anyone is REAL interested, I can try to get copies made. Contact me off the list. Craig DeWitt SC Energy R&D Center Clemson University ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 16:36:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17245 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06637 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03039; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02066 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.101] (pa-ppp36.hevanet.com [204.119.60.48]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Re: C&D recycling info request Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Debbi Allen, magnificent and most exalted queen of C&D waste recovery and recycling, says that only a few solid waste agencies have documented their waste flows. She did the field studies here in Portland. Pepper her with questions at 503-248-4550. For C&D recycling rates for Portland Oregon metropolitan area, contact Metro Solid Waste, Bruce Jacobson, 503-797-1663. Metro's general recycling info line is 503-234-3000. Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 16:36:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17265 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06800 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02893; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:23:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout22.mail.aol.com (emout22.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.127]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01917 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:23:18 -0400 (EDT) From: LOCASKY@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout22.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA01633 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to all for the information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 18:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18804 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA15421 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06054; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:49:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06352 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA136444; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:49:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:49:08 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: LOCASKY@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: polyslate In-Reply-To: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Dear?: the above is (was) available from Rubin Marketing: Allan Rubin phone: (416) 474-1933. Environmentally-sound composite.Perhaps you can update the rest of us once you have investigated this potential lead. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 LOCASKY@aol.com wrote: > > I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some > kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured > in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to > all for the information. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 19:19:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19094 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20562 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06536; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA07051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:10:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07047 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.199] (1Cust71.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.199]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA22426 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709182312.QAA22426@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 16:11:34 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. REDI (www.oikos.com/redi) lists quite a few different kinds of roofing. Here are a couple of those that might fit your question: Manner Value Plastic 1150 Applewood Dr Papillion, NE 68046-5786 tel: 402-596-9955 fax: 402-596-9973 Re-New Wood, Inc. PO Box 1093 Wagoner, OK 74467 tel: 918-485-5803 tel: 800-420-7576 fax: 918-485-1097 A link to more info appears with this company. I suggest you start your search under "Thermal and Moisture Protection." That will show you several promising product categories and should lead you to several more companies that may be appropriate. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 20:16:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19566 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03273 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07960; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08340 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts18l15.pathcom.com (ts18l15.pathcom.com [209.112.17.114]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09228 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709190010.UAA09228@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:06:58 +0000 Subject: RE: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 I had contacted Priestly, one of the biggest 'deconstruction' outfits in the Toronto area a while ago because they were doing a huge building across the street from where I work, and they swear they recycle or resell 98% of everything they take out. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 23:21:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22660 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26808 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11200; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:10:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12565 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:10:40 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA28417 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918231154_1763520916@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 In a message dated 9/18/97 2:24:16 PM, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of rubber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. >____________________ Try Majestic Skyline, Inc., P.O. Box 11, Station B, Ottawa, ON K1P 6C3, Canada, phone: 613-722-4548, Fax: 613-722-5548. They make rubber roofing cast to look like slate, made from recycled post industrial rubber. Product has a 50 year life and weighs approximately the same as asphalt roofing. The thickness is approx. 3/16 in. at the exposed end. Colors range from black to all shades of gray. The price ranges from $240 - $270/ square depending on the slope. For a slope less than 6:12, it needs 6 in. exposure and 200 tiles a square. For a greater slope, it needs 7 in. exposure at 174 tiles per square. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 07:11:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA25495 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA17069 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19438; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.vineyard.net (ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18022 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA26324 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csy2.vineyard.net(199.232.92.62) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma026314; Fri Sep 19 07:03:24 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:06:46 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Roofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 In response to the following query: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information Crowe Industries, Hamilton, Ontario, (905) 529 - 6818, makes a product called "Authentic Roof" which is a non-authentic slate-like shingle. It is made from waste polymers and rubber, primarily from tires and debris from diaper manufacturing. We've used it successfully. It comes with a 50 year warranty and a list price of $350. per square. Not cheap, but it installs easily. Nice product. It looks uncannily like slate, except that at present there is only one pattern, so if you look at a single tile you're amazed at the resemblance, but if you look at a whole roof the lack of variegation makes it look like something else. They say that soon they'll have eight moulds instead of one - this will be a big improvement. They're also working to increase flame retardancy. Good luck - John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 08:07:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25891 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA29985 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19859; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:53:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18519 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.17.128] (pm0a28.bf.sover.net [204.71.17.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11426; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:55:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LOCASKY@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Last year Environmental Building News reviewed a product along these lines called the Eco-shake from Renew Wood, Inc. of Wagoner, OK. It's made of wood fiber and recycled PVC from garden-hose manufacturer--both post-industrial. It is heavily textured to look like a wood shake. PHone numbers: 800/485-5803, 918/485-5803 Nadav Malin At 4:25 PM -0400 9/18/97, LOCASKY@aol.com wrote: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 10:20:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27667 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27872 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21622; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21142 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95666; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:09:32 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:09:32 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: recycled Roofing In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Can any of these splendid roofing materials be used for rainwater collection for household use? This may be a serious limiting factor, since all our roofs must be able to do this in an uncontaminated manner. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 13:24:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01118 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18907 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25732; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:14:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25385 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA102976 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:16:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: reidential water usage Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:24:58 -0000 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 14:55:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02437 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA20031 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27489; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA28277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:42:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28273 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PreinstalledCom (bsd-as2s28.erols.com [207.172.240.91]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09143 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709191845.OAA09143@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joseph Charlson Subject: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space: I have an unfinished basement that I'm finishing in the Boston area. The structure is all uninsulated cast concrete. Its approximately 5 feet below grade and 2.5 feet above grade. There doesn't appear to be any foundation drainage. The dehumidifier removes approx. 7 gallons of water a day right now. I expect the humidity to increase once we start occupying the space. My current plan is to tape and seal 6 mil polyethylene across all walls and the floor slab. On the walls I was going to use R13 un-faced batts except for the above grade portion where I can fit R19. This will be air sealed from the interior with drywall. I know the general rule is to put the vapor barrier (poly of Kraft) on the warm side in heating climates but I think I should put it on the concrete foundation b/c of all the water that's currently diffusing through the walls and floor. Does anyone think this is especially bad b/c of the 6-7 month heating situation in Boston? Also can anyone comment on the benefits or any potential health risks of applying a concrete water sealant (like Olympic or other commercial products) to the interior surfaces of the concrete? If this stuff really works and isn't going to off gass nasty chemicals into the living space, then I would either move the polyethylene layer to the interior behind the drywall OR use Kraft faced batts on the interior and no polyethylene at all. I guess the poly or Kraft might help keep out the sealant emissions if it should actually be an issue. Can anyone offer me some good advice? Thanks in advance, Joe Charlson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 16:46:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03650 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21552 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00444; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.topher.net (mail.topher.net [206.136.138.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01607 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp05.topher.net [206.136.138.164]) by mail.topher.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA02140; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:28:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:28:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199709192028.PAA02140@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , greenbuilding@crest.org From: ewestbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: residential water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Chris Koehn asked: >Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > The following data comes from a water and wastewater engineering course I took back in 1992; I don't know if the numbers have changed much since then, and I don't know what the professor's published source was. USA average: 60-100 gpcd for residential use, total of 166 gpcd (gallons per capita per day) including commercial, industrial, public use, and system losses (i.e., leaks) Other municipal averages, total consumption: Dallas 161 gpcd Houston 250 gpcd LA 181 Tulsa 157 Other countries: U.K. 71 gpcd Japan (Tokyo) 77 W. Germany 46 Switzerland 107 Egypt 26 Pakistan 19 India 14 Spain 44 Makes you think we could be using a *lot* less, doesn't it? The minimum required to support life is 1-1.5 gpcd. In the U.S., residential use breaks down like this: toilets 41% washing 37% kitchen 11% laundry 4% cleaning 3% lawns 3% car washing 1% Those figures are national averages. I promise, in the fancy suburb nearest us (Plano, Texas), summertime water use is much more than 3% -- probably a lot more%. The average water use there is 15,000 gallons per month per household (annualized). That's about 125 gpcd, assuming a four-person family and a 30-day month. At our house, with low-flow fixtures (but 1.6 gpf toilets) and 1600-gallon cistern for landscape water, we use an average of 33.3 gpcd. And we don't even have a very efficient washing machine, sorry to say! Hope this helps! ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 19:57:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07283 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09656 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04240; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:48:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05825 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA15014; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sba-ca1-25.ix.netcom.com(204.32.201.57) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014297; Fri Sep 19 18:46:55 1997 Message-ID: <3422ADC9.2F11@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:52:34 +0000 From: Richard Dean Reply-To: e2wt@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-NC320 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage References: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 > Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______ I found a number close to your question. 90 gallons/day/person in an urban environment. Source: Local newspaper. I don't know what an average household is though, 2.4 ? -- Richard Dean E2WT Services Energy, Environmental, & Water Treatment Specialists 6440 W Camino Cielo Santa Barbara, CA 93105 (805) 967-2141 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 21:01:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07806 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23107 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA05119; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:52:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06779 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-27-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.27]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06858; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:54:51 -0400 Message-ID: <34231EBC.511@together.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:54:20 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: residential water usage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 Chris & Ruth Koehn: Some notes on my houshold water consumption, for your information. Recently, I looked at my water bills. My average daily consumption is a tad more than 80 gallons per day. I live in a 1.5 story 45 year old cape in Northern Vermont. I live alone, no kids, in suburbia. Most of the plumbing fixtures are circa 1950, and use water accordingly. Only my 2.0 gpm shower head approaches modern efficiency. When my x lived here, the average was 90 to 100 gallons per day. The poor overall water efficiency of my home also extends to the thermal envelope with 1.5 inches of fiberglass wall batts, old monster cast iron coal furnace uograded to nat gas with retrofit blower, operates at 50% efficiency, on good days. I work as a self employed HVAC design/commissioning consultant with a strong record in design of high performance HVAC systems. That explains the dismal person efficiency standards, conforming to the old rule about plumbers having leaky faucets. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 00:06:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA09160 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA05346 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07385; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:57:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09411 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip16.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.35]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA152; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:06:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970919235955.00718f54@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:59:55 -0400 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , "GB List" From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage In-Reply-To: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Chris: One reference worth examining is EPA's Exposure Factors Handbook. Check their website (http://www.epa.gov/ORD/WebPubs/exposure/) for a PDF edition. I'm one of the authors of that section covering residential parameters (either 16 or 17, if memory serves), and water usage is covered in fair detail (Charlie Wilkes did a pretty intensive summary of the literature up to 1996). There's even a breakdown by water use appliance. My copy isn't handy (natch), so I can't confirm the chapter number. The document, by the way, is still in draft status (pending response to Science Advisory Board comments), but these numbers are unlikely to change. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 05:16:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA11805 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA24988 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09808; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA12445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:08:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA12441 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.100.102]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA17378 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:19:51 +0100 Message-ID: <342393F0.D8A46F8E@which.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:14:26 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 Here's a link to try: http://www.ae.iastate.edu/HTMDOCS/pm1089.htm Malcolm Scott Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 09:49:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14882 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06834 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA11082; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:38:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14200 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.105] (pm0a5.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.105]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27180; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:41:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Chris Koen inquired about the average water use per day in the U.S. The U.S. Geological Survey is the primary U.S. agency that tracks water consumption, and their most recent data is from 1990. During that year, the average water consumption by people with their own wells was 79 gallons per capita per day (gpcd). Average consumption by people on public water supplies was 105 gpcd. However, there are significant differences in different parts of the country. For details, check out USGS statistics on-line: http://h2o.usgs.gov. Roughly half of the domestic water in the U.S. comes from aquifers; half from surface waters. BTW, our current issue of Environmental Building News has a feature article on water conservation. Give our office a call or e-mail us if you would like us to send you a copy as a free sample issue. Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News 802/257-7300 or ebn@ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 10:14:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15737 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11135 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11347; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:03:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA14466 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.138.74] (ad11-074.compuserve.com [199.174.138.74]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15019 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:05:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:05:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199709201405.HAA15019@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: C&D waste issues (R. Snyder post) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 -----------C&D waste issues-------------------- >Snip from post GB (digest #392 -- 19 Sept. 1997) ------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:31 -0400 From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Subject: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Original question: I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this information? Any help would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bion Howard response: RS- check with Peter Yost at the NAHB Research Center, (301) 249-4000 (local call from Judiciary Square or Waterside Mall...) who has done considerable study in this area. C&D waste resource reduction is an area every builder can and should take steps to implement now. Every green building conference has some sessions on this, and papers exist on the topic as well. ......................................................................... BTW, RC is funded to do a green building manual (yes another green building manual, thank goodness...) by EPA !! The program is funded in support of national green-home marketing program sponsored by NAHB -- the same group that brought U.S. a nationwide effort to repeal local adoption and enforcement of the Model Energy Code !! NAHB going green is more about the color of money (personal rant here) and helping put down "needless regulation that hurts the industry..." as opposed to real reform in the environmental impacts of development. It stands to __ builders themselves__ to learn about and implement their own green building "standards," since powerful political forces including NAHB, the lumber industry, and others are delaying promulgation of new voluntary standards in order to buy time for existing products to complete market cycles, and since many consultant studies predictably show that competing and quite dissimilar products are "greener than driven pine- needles..." While developing this program, the Research Center is also participating (well, sort of) in the development of ASTM standard guidelines for residential green buildings. To their credit the C&D resource analysis work they have done is of a unique and high-quality nature. There are several published reports on this topic too, but P. Yost will have to help here since there has been a glut of green building "information" that is quite a lot like solar in the mid-to-late 1970's. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Legal Notice to be attached to all re-postings of this writing -- Note: comments contained here are the personal opinion of Bion Howard and do not reflect the opinions of any entity hosted on or linked to the "Howard Associates" web-site, and are not to be quoted outside the "Green Building" list, managed by Oikos and EBN. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 11:45:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17444 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27767 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12030; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:37:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout21.mail.aol.com (emout21.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.126]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15572 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:37:11 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout21.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA19317 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970920111655_-263415696@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 Not sure if htis is helpful, though I learened recently the GPCD for Tucson is 110..... and this is supposedly reflecting a more miserly usage than national averages. I will speak with the folks at the Environmental Research Laboratory here when I see them today. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 12:05:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17709 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01464 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12238; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:56:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15792 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06304; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:56:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3423F18D.A136ECFF@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:53:49 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Charlson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709191845.OAA09143@smtp1.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 Joseph Charlson wrote: > > Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade > living space: > > I have an unfinished basement that I'm finishing in the Boston area. > The > structure is all uninsulated cast concrete. Its approximately 5 feet > below > grade and 2.5 feet above grade. There doesn't appear to be any > foundation > drainage. Hi Joseph You should check a few things before finishing a basement i.e. height of water table and exterior drainage meaning not just if there is perimeter drainage but also where the gutters drain, if the land slopes toward the basement, etc. Look for signs of flooding or areas of excessive dampness in the basement itself. Insurance companies don't always cover damage from flooding. Exterior damp or waterproofing and drainage is really the best option (but not that useful if there is hydrostatic pressure from high water table). If it is not possible to do the exterior work interior waterproofing can be done with cementious products such as Zypec (discussed earlier check archives for address). Other concrete waterproofers (such as the Olympia you mentioned) use percentages of silicone for waterproofing. Most use a solvent base but there are friendly alternatives - one is called Enviroseal by Thoro which is a water based silicone top sealer and is quite effective. These products are generally used to provide a clear coating on cement or stucco where you want to preserve the appearance of the concrete. Use the cementious product if you can as it has more integrity for its purpose. I would not use fiberglass insulation as its effectiveness is compromised by any moisture (in other words useless). Foam (EPS) in higher densities would both insulate more effectively and provide the moisture barrier. You could use a foamed adhesive such as enerbond to attach the panels to the concrete and the drywall to the foam (no wood involved - fewer materials for mold growth etc. Finished basements such as you describe are not the healthiest places and do not work well with conventional finishing materials (potential for mold growth etc.) If I was to create specifications for finishing that area I would: - excavate perimeter to footing - slope the footing (applying mortar or cement) - apply zypec to 8" above grade - drain rock and perimeter drainage at footing (do not tie gutter drains into perimeter drainage) - apply foam insulation boards against exterior foundation walls from 2' below grade to top of foundation wall (you can use stucco or zypec over the foam) - use drainage board or backfill with gravel/sand - create a free draining path area around the house rather than plantings INTERIOR SPECIFICATIONS: the interior should now be dry and insulated - drywall can be directly laminated to the conc. walls but it would be preferable to avoid paper faced and gypsum products - cleaning and smoothing the exist conc. or going to a smooth stucco finish might be preferable. - flooring (if you need to install an additional heat source you might want to think of running radiant floor tubing to take advantage of the existing mass and pour a 1.5" slab over and either colouring the conc. or installing tile, etc. Sorry if this is more info than you wanted but it struck me that the system you were describing was not taking advantage of or working to improve what you already have. Its generally been my opinion that a healthy house is not just a question of using the least dangerous materials but more of balancing the inherent properties of materials - so that they work together, e.g.. taking advantage of the fact that the area is already ground insulated so insulating only the exterior portion above grade, using the mass as a heat sink, improving the existing mold resistant walls rather than adding a new, potentially contaminating layer, etc. Better stop now. Good luck John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 13:16:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18172 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16939 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13100; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:03:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16908 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NhN11000; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:04:32 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6-7,9,11-13,15-16,19-22,25-27 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:04:32 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Hi- I'm new to this list, but due to the nature of my problems, have been referred here by others belonging to MCS lists I have Chemical Sensitivity, and would greatly appreciate some suggestions on making our attic/ crawlspace less unhealthy for me. In this crawlspace is the old insulation- a ground up paper type of blown in insulation. I have been advised to have it removed, and replaced with something that is a "safer" alternative for myself- with my condition. Does anyone know of any fairly "safe" way of getting the old insulation out of there and are their companies that do this kind of work? Also, any suggestions on what type of insulation that has had some success with people with chemical sensitivities, that we can use in that attic.. Just to note, we are living in a warm moist climate. Being so chemically sensitive, makes this situation imperative to deal with. I am limited to the things that can be done while I'm living in the home. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:17:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04249 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19210 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02679; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:05:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03693 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.59 (pm1-27.hoosier.net [206.106.67.59]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14196; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:06:48 -0500 Message-ID: <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:04:54 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J FESCO CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located (inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) to where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of ways that such migration takes place. A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the living space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it is, can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would be bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a house simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house as tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put it together. My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from the outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. Thus there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be moving in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make this same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding Ventilation. Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. Things such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning products, etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building cavity. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:22:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04265 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20316 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03574; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:11:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from usr04.primenet.com (usr04.primenet.com [206.165.6.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05237 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost02.primenet.com [206.165.5.53]) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29144 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:13:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from preinstalledcom (ip202.prc.primenet.com [207.218.17.202]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA02426 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:14:02 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34252B88.3046@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:13:28 -0700 From: John Reply-To: jonwil@primenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And where can one get one (a few)? Thanks in advance, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:39:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04323 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23924 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA06527; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:24:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waymark.net (ns.waymark.net [207.18.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08173 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:24:19 -0400 (EDT) From: kahless@ns.waymark.net Received: from [207.18.145.80] (dalmax1-80.waymark.net [207.18.145.80]) by ns.waymark.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA02584 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:24:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: kahless@mail.waymark.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:10:45 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Roof ventilation - soffit vents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 I've got a bit of a problem - maybe someone on this list can help. I have a new roof with composition shingles and properly installed ridge vents. Long story short, roofer claimed experience with the venting system. 5 months later, he has finally got them installed correctly. He's gone and I'm trying to get additional soffit ventng. Looks like I'll either be doing the sofit vents myself or having someone work from detailed instructions. I understand the concept and know I need much more soffit venting than I have now. Problem is finding a suitable product to install. I'd like to have continuous venting, but can only find a product that is about 2" wide. This doesn't seem wide enough and involves cutting into the soffit. I'd like to replace the entire soffit with a continuous vent. Has anyone done this or even heard of it? I'm being told this can't be done/is a bad idea. Samantha kahless@waymark.net P.S. I'm in a rural area north of Dallas, Texas. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 11:16:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04571 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01350 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16795; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:04:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18493 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA121482; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:03:52 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:03:52 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: low flush toilets In-Reply-To: <34252B88.3046@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 John: Most US suppliers make 1.5 gal. toilets. But why bother? I would investigate the use of the Sealand .6 Litres (1 pint) ultra-low flush toilet instead, available directly from Sealand or any RV dealer? This may be appropriate for your application. All toilets have pros and cons. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, John wrote: > > Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And > where can one get one (a few)? > > Thanks in advance, > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 12:03:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04813 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12913 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19766; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:38:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21394 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.160] (1Cust32.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.160]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA01248 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709211540.IAA01248@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 08:39:35 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 John We installed three Kohler low flush models rated at 1.6 gallons when we built our house 5 years ago. In that time I've used the plunger _once_. We have two young girls who tend to use more paper than necessary. But that doesn't seem to be a problem. Despite the whining of some members of Congress on this issue, my experience shows the 1.6 gallon flushers to be quite effective. BTW, REDI (www.oikos.com/redi) lists companies that make low flush toilets rated at 1.6 gallons or under. Bruce S. >Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And >where can one get one (a few)? > >Thanks in advance, >John Wilson >Prescott, AZ. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:29:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05338 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05215 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10554; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:13:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08282 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itjfvkli ([207.146.44.67]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAB19577 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:16:01 +0000 From: "Mary McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:34:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05366 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06479 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11158; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09624 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frazer (ip128.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.128]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01765; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921172348.006e451c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:48 -0400 To: kahless@ns.waymark.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof ventilation - soffit vents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 While the general rule for roof venting is equal areas in & out, air is pretty dumb and goes where it wants. You might what to have some pressure measurements done to assure that the ridge vent is not pulling conditioned from the house itself. You might find a local building performance contractor from the web site listed below or email me if you have no luck. Round vents are available from most insulation supply houses (J&R 800/343-4446, EFI 876-0660). best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:36:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05377 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07057 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11239; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09621 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frazer (ip128.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.128]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01756; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921172347.006efcd8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:47 -0400 To: jonwil@primenet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 I have had two IFO Casades in my house for over a decade, they were bought from Resource Technology in Baltimore. I haven't heard from them in while, so I'm not sure they are still around. Let me know if you find a viable source. best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 20:32:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09223 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12717 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA11029; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:22:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08767 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip20.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.39]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA145 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:31:46 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970921202546.0071b40c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:25:46 -0400 To: From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? In-Reply-To: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 At 12:47 PM 9/21/97 -0500, Mary McDaniel wrote: >Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story >office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? Mary: One publication that comes to mind is a paper by John Girman that was published in Environment International (vol. 15, pages 449-453, 1989). There have been other things published since then. EPA may have something in the form of general guidance by now, and you should take a look at the proceedings of the big indoor air conference that's held every three years. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 21:42:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09725 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26364 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02260; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:29:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29108 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA94928 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:31:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199709220131.UAA94928@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:39:54 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 We've had two Ifo Cascades in our home for 7 years. They work fine, but do require slightly more cleaning. More, ahem, how shall we say... skid marks? My plumber tells me the Ifo patent was purchased a few years ago by Mansfield, which is now owned by Kohler. I'm not so sure, as I have seen ads for Ifo since. Good 1.6 gal toilets are available from any plumbing supply co, since they are pretty much the law now. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 22:38:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14064 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA09109 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21414; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA18257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:25:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA18144 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA23285; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:25:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3425D65E.A7213A4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:22:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary McDaniel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 Mary McDaniel wrote: > > Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 > story > office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? If your concerns are personal then I would suggest that your approach concentrate on that aspect i.e. boosting immunology, developing a work strategy that limits exposure (fresh air breaks, come in late monday mornings after the air system has been labouring for a while, etc.) You can also refine exposure in a personal work space by identifying air sources and creating additional filtration and conditioning. Pressurizing the space, etc. Building intensive efforts such as high heat could exacerbate the problem by destabilizing certain materials. Sounds risky. If your concern is with everyone working in the building (10 stories is a lot of occupants) then start now by working with the buildings designers to identify pollutant sources, potentials for exposure and exposure levels, air system design, etc., and start working to improve those conditions. Air system design is probably the most crucial aspect. Remember that simple things like initial exposure to a new computer system on a desk will probably far exceed any additional contaminants from the building and unless there is some air system that can be accelerated, very little can be done. Remember also that because a practice is labeled green it does not mean that it is acceptable. We recently had delivery of a european manuf. couch that is a labeled green and far exceeded any american standards - it instantly produced the full range of allergic reactions in two kids, two adults, one dog and one cat and only the cat is comfortable on it 3 weeks later and only out of desperation. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 23:59:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14802 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25591 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20112; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16321 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:48:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout21.mail.aol.com (emout21.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.126]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16276 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:48:39 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout21.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA06976 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970921234934_576324327@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 In a message dated 9/21/97 10:20:01 AM, marmac1@worldnet.att.net wrote: >Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story >office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? Snip............................ I agree with John Salmen that there are dangers associated with heating up all the materials in a new building for the purposes of accelerating offgassing. You are unable to control synergistic chemical reactions, structural and other damage. John Girman's studies and others have shown that the type of "baking out" you are talking about is fraught with complications and problems. To accelerate offgassing, the building materials must be heated to a temperature (85 to 103 degrees F.) beyond their designed capacity and maintained at that temperature for a minimum of 72 hours (longer is more effective). Fresh air ventilation must be maintained simultaneous to the heating in order to exhaust the noxious offgassing. The balance between temperature, fresh air intake and stale air exhaust must be continuously monitored and the entire space must be professionally inspected 24 hours a day during the bakeout period. Windows can crack, drywall nails can pop out, doors can warp, adhesives can break down, laminates can separate, electronic or other equipment can be damaged, and warranties can be voided. Worst of all, the released destabilized chemicals and odors may be absorbed in fabrics, acoustic ceilings, or other absorbent surfaces--only to continue offgassing into the rooms for a long time into the future. Far better approach for indoor air quality is: 1- Source reduction. Eliminate as many toxic surfaces and furnishings as possible. 2 - Isolate compromise materials from the indoor space (air barriers, sealers, separate locations). 3 - Provide spot exhaust ventilation for problem equipment, such as computers, copiers, etc. and provide well-designed, controlled ventilation for the building. Utilize high quality filtration to neutralize foul air. As John Salmen said, the ventilation design is a most critical element. 4 - Flush the space with total fresh air, exhausting stale air, for as long as possible before occupancy. 5 - Run the HVAC system (with fresh air component and high quality filtration) for a period of time each day before occupying space. Maintain positive pressure in rooms. Monitor conditions and occupant health. 6 - If possible, provide operable windows for individual occupants. By the way, this is not an analysis or a prescription--it is just what comes to mind as a quick response to the query above. I think it is important to think very carefully before jumping to conclusions about the best "fix" for such a building. There is plenty of literature for further information. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 00:25:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15006 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA01100 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12767; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:24:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from usr05.primenet.com (usr05.primenet.com [206.165.6.205]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09158 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost02.primenet.com [206.165.5.53]) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11608; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from preinstalledcom (ip225.prc.primenet.com [207.218.17.225]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15079; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3425E56F.1DE5@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:39 -0700 From: John Reply-To: jonwil@primenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet References: <199709220131.UAA94928@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Dear Chris, Thanks for the Ifo review. I am aware that there are many makers of 1.6 gal low flush toilets, but the pull from the top system seems to have more flush power then I have seen on other low flush toilets. Do the Kohler low flush have this same mechanism? John Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > We've had two Ifo Cascades in our home for 7 years. They work fine, but > do require slightly more cleaning. More, ahem, how shall we say... skid > marks? > > My plumber tells me the Ifo patent was purchased a few years ago by > Mansfield, which is now owned by Kohler. I'm not so sure, as I have seen > ads for Ifo since. Good 1.6 gal toilets are available from any plumbing > supply co, since they are pretty much the law now. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 02:38:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA16935 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22028 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA04851; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:27:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA29821 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:27:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CrawfordPS@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA05191 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922022950_419944601@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design studies Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 Dear sirs, Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable Design. I have spend hours on the internet, searching all kinds of sites, and have not been able to find any Universities that do serious research in this field. Surely, they have to be out there, I just can't find them. Sincerely, Paul -- email: CrawfordPS@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 09:48:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20756 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29988 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12014; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:29:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02568 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.46 (pm1-14.hoosier.net [206.106.67.46]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA31138; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:31:10 -0500 Message-ID: <342672AC.52AF@bloomington.in.us> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:29:16 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary McDaniel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? References: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 I've read a number of papers on building bake-outs and feel that it's one of those "too good to be true" approaches. At best, it seems to have a minimal effect, at worst, it causes damage and new IAQ problems. See an article in Science News, Vol. 136 #13 (Sept. 23, 1989), pg. 206. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:11:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21979 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21941 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12564; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709221453.KAA01082@solstice.crest.org> X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f To: CrawfordPS@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mark DeKay Subject: GBlist: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 Paul: At Washington University in St. Louis, we offer several courses explicitly focusing on sustainable issues. Several studio faculty are also engaging the topic also. Our website is new this year and growing weekly. Check it out at: http://arch.wustl.edu . Click on "studios and courses" in the navigation bar. You will see a list of courses on the left, including, "Environment and Buildings," "Ecological Building Design Strategies," and "Urban and Landscape Ecology." Wash. U. is a private school, and although our tuitionis high, we offer great financial aid (as US news recently noted), making us "expensive but worth it," and " a great value." If you are looking for a public university, youcan not do better in the field than the University of Oregon. http://www-architecture.uoregon.edu/foyer You also may want to check out the Ecological Design Education Network: http://www.ecodesign.org/edi/eden/index.html regards, Mark DeKay ------------------------------------------ >Dear sirs, > >Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools >offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable >Design. Mark DeKay Assistant Professor of Architecture School of Architecture Washington University One Brookings Drive campus box 1079 St. Louis, MO 63130 USA dekay@arch.wustl.edu Office: 201 Givens Hall 314.935.6282, 314.935.8520 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:25:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22178 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25612 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16570; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:08 -0400 (EDT) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA02897 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:13:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:13:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nyc-ny45-21.ix.netcom.com(199.183.41.149) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002866; Mon Sep 22 10:13:02 1997 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <1997922111915211478@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: GB list X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. --Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:32:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22280 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27407 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12424; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00961 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.24] (mke-1-8.binc.net [208.142.229.24]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA84352 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:55:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199709221455.JAA84352@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: water usage Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 09:04:11 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Thanks to: Mark DeKay, James.Olivia, Richard Dean, Rob Watson, Elena Westbrook, Tom Anderson, Harry Rector, Jim Rogers, Alex Wilson, A Novelli, & Malcom Scott for their input on the residential water usage question. The General consensus seems to be that- it depends. Where you live seems to matter. Arid regions use more (up to 270 gal/person/day) while those living in Boston, where they have to pay more for their water, use substantially less. The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person per day. That's alot of water! Our household averages 100 gallons per day, for two adults and one young child (33 gal ea). Ithought maybe my meter was broke... until I read the Nat'l averages. We use 1.6 gal toilets, low flow shower heads (average 6 showers total per week), and an Asko washer. We don't water our yard at all. We collect rain water for our gardens. Sure seems tough to bring that number down! Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:07:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26113 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08844 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06373; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:53:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin16.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03307 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:53:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Kirbservc@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA22975 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922135345_-1699541212@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Speaking of toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 Speaking of toilets, has anyone had any experience with the Sloan Flushmate? Mike Kirby P.S. I am mainly a lurker but have been here for months and very much enjoy the conversations here! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:41:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26549 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16879 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08925; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05802 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O^O02321; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970922.142245.4567.5.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34249C29.1E@chelmsford.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-10 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:01:46 -0700 Jim Rogers writes: >The same companies that install the cellulose insulation (blow it in) >will probably also remove it. If their equipment can vacuum it out it >would be easiest. Let them keep it and maybe they will do it on the >cheap. > Hi Jim- Thanks for the suggestion- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:44:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26596 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17867 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09143; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:30:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05951; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA06184; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922143058_1889579401@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: the other side of scary window stories Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 Friends, In my search for window horror stories I have recently been reminded of "downstream" horrors/opportunities that may also arise when window performance decisions are not coupled with appropriate "whole house" perspective. I will share this abbreviated story with the list (the long version will be discussed at the EEBA conference) with the HOPES OF: 1) enlightenment coupled with humor 2) disgust at such "bad moves" 3) eliciting more stories along this line of thinking Regards, Chris Mathis MCSquared My buddy Steve buys a new house in Orlando. Typical single-glazed aluminum windows. Big air conditioner. Calls me up. "Chris, I can't USE half my house! South and west sides are just too hot!" What do I propose? (and remember the value of free advice....) "Hey Steve, do what everyone ELSE in Florida does.... call up the sun control film installer." Steve does. Calls back and says "THANKS. Works great. Windows are a little blue, but now I can use my whole house. And he only charged me $100 a window!" and now for "the rest of the story...." (and some perspective on such decisions) Steve's situation is not unusual. His builder installed $89 windows and about 7 tons of air conditioning (oversized anyway). Steve is happy because (ignorance is bliss) and he can now use his whole home. So, where is the horror story? 1. Steve got to MORTGAGE the $89 window at 7.25 % for 30 years. Complete with all the deductions implied. 2. Steve got to put an additional $100 each on his VISA at between 15% and 24%. Without deductions. 3. Steve's builder could have probably installed a $200 window for the same basic COST to Steve but with potentially dramatic BENEFITS (energy, comfort, UV protection, peak load reduction, glare, reduced temp swings, etc.) 4. Steve's builder installed an air conditioner that is now about 30% to 50% MORE oversized than it was! Which will now (a) short cycle MORE (b) not dehumidify properly (c) have shorter life (d) cost more to operate and (e) be noisier than necessary because of the similarly oversized fans.... 5. Steve gets to do it all again in 5 to 10 years.... (or whatever the life of the sun control film is....) or until his compressor blows up or until he has to replace IT with one more appropriately sized in the first place. Without a "whole house perspective" (by the builder when FIRST constructing and by Steve/me when "fixing") problems like these can arise. As you consider other "window horror stories" I would appreciate any other "whole house-related" ones that you might have. (door and skylight stories are also welcome:) Lesson # 2. All of you out there installing energy efficient windows, upgraded insulation, weatherization and improved HVAC packages, PLEASE look at the big picture. First costs aren't everything.... Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:44:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26610 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18080 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09015; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05833 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O^N02321; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970922.142244.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,5-20,36-37,47-67,73-91,96-97,105-106,112-113, 116-125,131-132,139,147-149 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 Hi John- I thank you very much for responding to my post. My husband and I spent Sunday afternoon- learning from your book-"The Healthy House', and certainly it answers a lot of questions for us. I do however want to respond to your note to me, as well as go into a bit more detail on why I asked the question in the first place. You wrote: Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located >(inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) >to >where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of >ways >that such migration takes place. > >A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I >usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the >living >space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living >space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. This is one of the things that concerns me. I had started noticing a problem when it started getting hot and humid here. The air coming through the ducts (central air- electric)- smelled like a cardboard/ wet paper/ sheetrock, type of smell. At first I thought somehow this "toxic" odor was coming from the garage- because with the garage doors closed, that is how it smells out there. It is an attached garage, Anything like cardboard boxes, or extra clutter has been removed and stored in a shed. There was a fairly new sheetrock wall ( I know) put up in there in the spring to divide the laundry room and air handler room form the rest of the garage. There is a door from the garage to the house where that laundry room is. No work has been done in that room- due to my sensitivities, except for my husband covering over the sheetrock wall with stainless steel- to help rid the area of some of that odor. The door to the house seems well sealed- we worked on that. At first we thought this smell was coming from the garage- but that was just too obvious. We have by the way, a stucco ranch, on a slab. We had a popcorn ceiling in the house that had been scraped off professionally, for other reasons, that I don't want to bother you with. So the ceilings in the house to the touch have a powdery residue, then just the sheetrock. Since I can't paint and live here, that situation remains. I am still trying to figure out alternatives to "sealing in" or protecting myself from that ceiling. We vacuumed the ceiling again, and my symptoms were better. So, many area of concern here. I'm trying to say, I don't know if I am really protected from the attic space, due to the ceiling situation for one, and I wanted to give you a better picture of the situation. In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget >mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it >is, >can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with >sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would >be >bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. > >In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a >house >simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can >often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house >as >tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put >it >together. We covered around ceiling fans with foil tape, and any openings we could detect in any way. The air handler in the garage seems really tight, and the ductwork is all new metal, that was scrubbed clean of residue, that was done well, and wrapped at the seams with the foil tape. The is no insulation in the system - it's on the outside. I might not be explaining this well, hope it makes sense. >My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from >the >outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air >will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through >the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. >Thus >there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the >insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be >moving >in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make >this >same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, >moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden >moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding >Ventilation. Thank you so much. We did read that and more. We have gotten other advise as well about that fact that an "air-exchanger' would benefit me. You listed in your book 'Heat Recovery Ventilator"- I'm not sure if they are the same thing, but if I am understanding this correctly, they are the same principle. Since we live in a warm moist climate, we need an air exchange that will filter the air and dehumidify it before bringing it into the house. It would also have to be set up to have a manual on/off switch because at times the air is not desirable to bring in- for example- pesticides, or any chemical odors, My understanding is that these units exist, one type that is a separate unit that can be installed in any room, and the other type that can be installed in relation to working in conjunction with the air handler. I really need info on these air exchangers. I don't know anything more on them except one was mentioned to me called a 'Sahara"? . No one seems to know anything more. Is there a web site for locating, getting info on them and investigating them, or some places i could call? I'd really like to get going on this aspect at least- so I can hopefully start feeling better, and get some better quality air in here. In your book I saw the names of companies for the 'Heat Recovery Ventilator', but I don't know if I'm really dealing with the same thing as just an air exchanger. >Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are >bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. >Things >such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning >products, >etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building >cavity. Well, by now you know the ceiling is a problem.- It didn't "seem" to be such an immediate problem until it got hot and humid, and the air coming through the system got that smell. Could be I suppose, that I'm just recirculation this "bad air, and " with a ceiling like this It still doesn't change the fact that we feel the air exchange is necessary for me. I just want to mention, that a 'Pure Air' whole house filtration system was installed to the air handler- and all did seem well until the heat and humidity came. Whatever is happening it over rides the filtration system of the house. I'm sure I am being very inaccurate explaining this situation, but I'm doing the best I can with this. I also believe strongly that this positive' negative air flow is a very important factor as well. My husband and I are very appreciate of being "steered in the right direction" that can be provided for me, so I can feel better, and hopefully have some recovery. I'm supposing also that I need to hire an engineer about measuring this positive/negative air flow. I've taken up too much of your time already, but certainly wanted to respond, hopefully with more accuracy,, and give you a better picture of the situation, and why I asked the question in the first place. Any steering me in the right direction is much appreciate, I'm sure you know. Thanks Again, Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:45:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26629 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09289; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06109 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA06100 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA141590; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:22:16 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:22:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <1997922111915211478@ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous treatments that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If interested, please let me know and I can get you contact information. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > --Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:07:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28608 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08833 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11678; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08824 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts7p04.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA32370; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:03 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970922195916.006cfa34@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:59:16 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 Jorg, Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective of energy efficiency and getting your moneys worth? We are working on plans for a small 24'x30' cabin built on a shallow insulated slab with SIPs for walls and roof. The small second floor space is under the roof. I am wrestling with the windows and making a decision about the more expensive Anderson/Pella/Marvin brands versus less expensive Caradco which offer clad frames, low e glass and argon-filled space. The cabin will be heated quite efficiently with wood from our land and will be used only intermittently until we build our 'real' house which will be a super energy efficient passive solar structure. I want to install a large ratio of windows on the west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. I read with interest all the window discussions including the information about much better European windows are than are ours or yours (I think). I would be grateful for opinions from you and from others on this list as well. thanks, Sacie Lambertson >Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. >>From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous treatments >that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive >manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If interested, >please let me know and I can get you contact information. >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ >On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 >healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >> I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies >> that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate >> any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an >> environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. >> >> --Robyn Heller >> EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:54:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29267 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21168 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12986; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:44:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10378 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust29.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.29]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12232; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3426D7E4.1D2F818E@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:08 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: water usage References: <199709221455.JAA84352@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 The American Water Works Association Research Foundation has been conducting an end use metering study of residential water use. Initial results can be found on the WaterWiser web page: http://www.waterwiser.org in the "Books" section. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:56:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29291 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21648 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12800; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10263 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust29.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.29]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12107; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3426D734.E47380D7@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:38:12 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirbservc@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Speaking of toilets References: <970922135345_-1699541212@emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 "Sloan Flushmate" is Sloan Valve's trade name for the internal parts of "pressurized-tank" toilets. Almost all toilet manufacturers have a pressurized-tank model in their line and Sloan manufactures most of the internals. Pressurized-tank toilets are more expensive than gravity-tank models ($200+), have a slightly noisier, but very short flush cycle, and will almost never clog. Their mass clearance performance is better than 3.5 gallon (13 litre) toilets since they maintain a large trapway. IMHO, preferred for light commercial installations and for large familities who have members who either tend to use large amounts of paper, or who are very young and enjoy playing "Power Ranger Action Toys Explore the Undersea World" in the family toilet. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 17:14:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29556 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25640 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13310; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:04:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11014 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:08:40 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:08:24 -0400 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, bandjf@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 Given what you've described about your house, I highly recommend finding a competent diagnostician to figure out what's going on. Are the ducts really sealed? Since tape was used, the answer is probably not. Is duct leakage causing negative pressures in the house, causing air (along with contaminants) to be sucked in from the attic and/or garage? How tight is the house? How well sealed is the house from the attic? The Garage? An experienced person with a blower door, a duct blaster, a manometer, and some sense can probably figure out what's actually going on in a few hours, and possibly save you a bunch of money in terms of going down non-productive paths. Occasionally, this person might be an engineer, but experience, training, and having the right tools are much more important. I don't know any house docs in Dallas. Maybe someone else on this list does. Try your local utilities and weatherization program for leads. Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 18:02:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00016 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11927 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14218; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin16.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12369 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: CGrover77@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA28751 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922171747_-1263974935@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Where to find bio-degradable silt fencing? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 Does anyone have a source for a bio-degradable silt fence, preferably with wooden stakes attached? Recycled material would be a plus. We need to dredge the sediment pond, to restore it's capability to filter out sediment before the sediment reaches the lake. Need to contain the excavated sediment behind a retaining wall. Seeking wall material that consumes little space and will eventually biodegrade, after plants take over and stabilize the retaining wall into a pond bank. The material should be capable of holding back a two foot depth of excavated sediment. It should also enable us to insert plants through it, into the sediment, so they can take root. Ideally, the material would rot away after 2 years, and not hurt wildlife. I made a test wall using galvanized hog wire (2"X4" openings), and separately .. orange plastic 'tree protection area' fencing, both covered by burlap. Both work, but I'm concerned they won't age well. Any references on how to successfully build a biodegradeable retaining wall would also be appreciated. Thanks, Greg N. Smith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 18:59:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00635 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA24837 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15499; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13983 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-07b13.direct.ca [204.174.249.125] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xDHGi-0007e3-00; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:47:53 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:20:10 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 > Joseph Charlson wrote: > > > > Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade > > living space: > > I agree with John Salmen's comments in reply, but I would offer a couple of alternates, and another point to keep in mind, relating to insulation of the basement. > > If I was to create specifications for finishing that area I would: > - - excavate perimeter to footing > - - slope the footing (applying mortar or cement) > - - apply zypec to 8" above grade Unless there is a major hydrostatic water pressure from gourbnd water, if you opt to excavate on the exterior, then using a drainage material against the foundation wall would probably be easire to use and more efffective than a waterproofing compound such as Xypex. By waterproofing product I mean such as Drainclad (a rigid fibeglass board), PLaton damproofing membrane, or other similar mechanical systems. Check with local suppliers of insulated concrete forming systems for products they use. > - - drain rock and perimeter drainage at footing (do not tie gutter drains > into perimeter drainage) > - - apply foam insulation boards against exterior foundation walls from 2' > below I would strongly suggest that insulation should be applied full depth - wether inside or outside (depending on which is easier related to the specific construction issues). > grade to top of foundation wall (you can use stucco or zypec over the > foam) > - - use drainage board or backfill with gravel/sand > - - create a free draining path area around the house rather than > plantings > INTERIOR SPECIFICATIONS: the interior should now be dry and insulated > - - drywall can be directly laminated to the conc. walls but it would be > preferable to avoid paper faced and gypsum products - cleaning and > smoothing the exist conc. or going to a smooth stucco finish might be > preferable. Again, if fully insulated, the finish can be applied over foam insulation. > - - flooring (if you need to install an additional heat source you might > want to think of running radiant floor tubing to take advantage of the > existing mass and pour a 1.5" slab over and either colouring the conc. > or installing tile, etc. Again, as you are planning to make this a lving space, insulating the floor as well as installing a vapour/moisture barrier is important. Especially if you would consider putting in a radiant heating system, putting insulation under the floor should be considered a must. If headroom permits, you could put 2" rigid styrofoam over the existing floor, then a 2 1/2 to 3" slab that wouyld include radiant heating. > You should keep in mind that a major source of moisture in your basement, especially in the summer, may not necessarily be ground water working it's way inside, but rather outdoor air brought inside. Boston has a very humid summer environment, so the outdoor air brought inside into the cooler environment, such as a basement (especially an uninsulated one) will start to condense, especialy on the cold surfaces (i.e. thiose uninsulated ones in contact weith the ground). By sealing and insulating all the surfaces, you raise the surface temperature, thus reducing one problem element. You'll still have to deal with dehumidification in the summer (due to outdoor air coming inside) but it should be a smaller problem. And of course, you get a chance to have more useable living space year round. **************************************************************************** ********************* Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seynmour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice **************************************************************************** ******************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 19:23:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01613 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00125 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16015; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:06:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14559 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22320; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:06:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3426F944.2E04E76F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:03:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski , Joseph Charlson CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 I have to agree with Richard Kadulski in that it would be better to fully insulate the wall and using a drainage material is a good idea. Rockwool drainboard is readily available on the east coast and the rigid board fibres are coarser and less irritating that the glass (they use less formaldehyde as well). I still think (depending on the porosity of the exist. conc. and the moisture conditions that using a crystallization agent like zypec would be useful. I'm not sure about the necessity of insulating the slab (it depends on groundwater height - if 4-6' below slab then I can't see the requirement for the additional expense but then I tend to get kind of cheap sometimes as all my other details can get kind of expensive. It is a good point about the summer humidity and that should add to the considerations about choices of materials - its been a while since I lived on the east coast and I do seem to remember an especially moldy basement apartment. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 19:25:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01643 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00796 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16213; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14825 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts17p12.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA19610; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:15:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970922231726.006b8718@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:17:26 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Jorg, Re my question on the best windows for our situation I forgot to mention that the west facing windows will be shaded by trees during the summer, so a shading coefficient is not a big factor. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 20:46:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04635 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17949 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17794; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA17073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:34:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17067 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA19704; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922203513_1822791719@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: the "best windows" and other mysteries.... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Sacie asked: << Jorg, Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective of energy efficiency and getting your money's worth?... >> and in a later post mentioned: <> Ah, the problems and challenges of a beautiful west-facing view. Sacie, where are you and is summer cooling/dehumidifcation a big concern? (sorry for the previous partial send) "Tree shading" can be a successful compliment to protecting a western view from unwanted heat gain in the summer. BUT, a few provisos. Latitude still plays a role on the amount of solar gain hitting the windows in the afternoon. Tree selection and effective shading (%) should be carefully considered. Take heart! There are many new glazing systems out there that have fairly LOW solar heat gain coefficients while still maintaining HIGH visible transmittance. I highly recommend looking at them if you have a great western view and alot of unwanted incident solar radiation. (by the way, this is even more critical when hoping to USE that western solar gain in the winters without overheating.) and regarding those "superior" European windows. In general, European windows are "built to last" in part because housing is often being paid for over three generations! Many US (and Canadian) windows are also "built to last" but with a different perspective on longevity. I DO NOT recommend "throw away" windows. They are NOT commodity products and should last as long as the building! (OR, am I mistaken, are we now building throw away buildings?.... subject for another time....) Windows should last for 20, 50 or 100 years, depending on YOUR needs and expectations for performance and reliability. The three companies you mentioned (Andersen/Pella/ Marvin) have been around for nearly 100 years. An accident? Whether you buy a "name brand" or not, remember to look closely at the warranty and whether the company will be around if and when you need them. Good luck in your search. Keep us posted on the passive solar project! Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:55:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08882 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA16810 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21906; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20458 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26593 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922203513_1822791719@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: the "best windows" and other mysteries.... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 Hi, all-- Second Chris' point about warranties on windows. The first time I ever saw one of the window brands mentioned in a previous post installed here in Oregon, the general contractor reported that they leaked wind-blown rain. He was planning to take them out of the house and return them to the factory. I'm not picking on anyone, just reinforcing the need for good warranties--surprises happen, even with good brands. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:56:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08892 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17006 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21851; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20477 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26615 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970922.142244.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Hello, Beth-- For once I'm going to beat Bruce Sullivan to the punch and tell you that the Sahara is made by DEC International, Inc. Therma-Stor Products Group in Madison Wisconsin. Their phone number is 1-800-533-7533. While we have not seen a Sahara installed here in Portland, our experience with other DEC products and their product engineers has been excellent. John Bower will probably have some insights into the smell you described, but I wondered if you had mentioned whether you have air conditioning? If so, what happens to the water that condenses on the air conditioning coil? Is it possible there is a back-up in the drip pan or drain hose that would allow algae or mold to grow, or to wet the drywall or insulation? Best, Mike >Hi John- > I thank you very much for responding to my post. My husband and I >spent Sunday afternoon- learning from your book-"The Healthy House', and >certainly it answers a lot of questions for us. I do however want to >respond to your note to me, as well as go into a bit more detail on why I >asked the question in the first place. > >You wrote: >Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located >>(inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) >>to >>where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of >>ways >>that such migration takes place. >> >>A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I >>usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the >>living >>space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living >>space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. > >This is one of the things that concerns me. I had started noticing a >problem when it started getting hot and humid here. The air coming >through the ducts (central air- electric)- smelled like a cardboard/ wet >paper/ sheetrock, type of smell. At first I thought somehow this "toxic" >odor was coming from the garage- because with the garage doors closed, >that is how it smells out there. It is an attached garage, Anything like >cardboard boxes, or extra clutter has been removed and stored in a shed. >There was a fairly new sheetrock wall ( I know) put up in there in the >spring to divide the laundry room and air handler room form the rest of >the garage. There is a door from the garage to the house where that >laundry room is. No work has been done in that room- due to my >sensitivities, except for my husband covering over the sheetrock wall >with stainless steel- to help rid the area of some of that odor. The >door to the house seems well sealed- we worked on that. At first we >thought this smell was coming from the garage- but that was just too >obvious. We have by the way, a stucco ranch, on a slab. > >We had a popcorn ceiling in the house that had been scraped off >professionally, for other reasons, that I don't want to bother you with. >So the ceilings in the house to the touch have a powdery residue, then >just the sheetrock. Since I can't paint and live here, that situation >remains. I am still trying to figure out alternatives to "sealing in" or >protecting myself from that ceiling. We vacuumed the ceiling again, and >my symptoms were better. So, many area of concern here. I'm trying to >say, I don't know if I am really protected from the attic space, due to >the ceiling situation for one, and I wanted to give you a better picture >of the situation. > > >In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget >>mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it >>is, >>can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with >>sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would >>be >>bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. >> >>In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a >>house >>simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can >>often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house >>as >>tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put >>it >>together. > > >We covered around ceiling fans with foil tape, and any openings we could >detect in any way. The air handler in the garage seems really tight, >and the ductwork is all new metal, that was scrubbed clean of residue, >that was done well, and wrapped at the seams with the foil tape. The is >no insulation in the system - it's on the outside. I might not be >explaining this well, hope it makes sense. > >>My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from >>the >>outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air >>will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through >>the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. >>Thus >>there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the >>insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be >>moving >>in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make >>this >>same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, >>moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden >>moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding >>Ventilation. > > >Thank you so much. We did read that and more. We have gotten other >advise as well about that fact that an "air-exchanger' would benefit me. >You listed in your book 'Heat Recovery Ventilator"- I'm not sure if they >are the same thing, but if I am understanding this correctly, they are >the same principle. > >Since we live in a warm moist climate, we need an air exchange that will >filter the air and dehumidify it before bringing it into the house. It >would also have to be set up to have a manual on/off switch because at >times the air is not desirable to bring in- for example- pesticides, or >any chemical odors, My understanding is that these units exist, one >type that is a separate unit that can be installed in any room, and the >other type that can be installed in relation to working in conjunction >with the air handler. > >I really need info on these air exchangers. I don't know anything more on >them except one was mentioned to me called a 'Sahara"? . No one seems to >know anything more. Is there a web site for locating, getting info on >them and investigating them, or some places i could call? I'd really >like to get going on this aspect at least- so I can hopefully start >feeling better, and get some better quality air in here. > >In your book I saw the names of companies for the 'Heat Recovery >Ventilator', but I don't know if I'm really dealing with the same thing >as just an air exchanger. > >>Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are >>bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. >>Things >>such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning >>products, >>etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building >>cavity. > >Well, by now you know the ceiling is a problem.- It didn't "seem" to be >such an immediate problem until it got hot and humid, and the air coming >through the system got that smell. Could be I suppose, that I'm just >recirculation this "bad air, and " with a ceiling like this It still >doesn't change the fact that we feel the air exchange is necessary for >me. > > I just want to mention, that a 'Pure Air' whole house filtration system >was installed to the air handler- and all did seem well until the heat >and humidity came. Whatever is happening it over rides the filtration >system of the house. I'm sure I am being very inaccurate explaining this >situation, but I'm doing the best I can with this. I also believe >strongly that this positive' negative air flow is a very important factor >as well. >My husband and I are very appreciate of being "steered in the right >direction" that can be provided for me, so I can feel better, and >hopefully have some recovery. I'm supposing also that I need to hire an >engineer about measuring this positive/negative air flow. I've taken up >too much of your time already, but certainly wanted to respond, >hopefully with more accuracy,, and give you a better picture of the >situation, and why I asked the question in the first place. Any steering >me in the right direction is much appreciate, I'm sure you know. > >Thanks Again, Beth >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:57:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08920 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21978; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20467 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26605 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922171747_-1263974935@emout05.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to find bio-degradable silt fencing? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 Hi, Greg-- Would one of the "geo-fabrics" work for you? These are meshes made of biodegradable materials that lay over the soil and prevent it from being eroded by heavy rains. Plants can be seeded or installed through the fabric. They are widely used by highway departments, developers, commercial landscape contractors, city agencies, etc. here in Portland. We can also get "bio-bags, which are mesh bags filled with wood chips. The bags hold the soil and eventually the mesh decomposes and the wood "mulch" remains. These seem to work better than the poly fences. Best, Mike >Does anyone have a source for a bio-degradable silt fence, preferably with >wooden >stakes attached? Recycled material would be a plus. > >We need to dredge the sediment pond, to restore it's capability to filter >out sediment >before the sediment reaches the lake. Need to contain the excavated sediment >behind >a retaining wall. Seeking wall material that consumes little space and will >eventually >biodegrade, after plants take over and stabilize the retaining wall into >a pond bank. > > >The material should be capable of holding back a two foot depth of excavated >sediment. > It should also enable us to insert plants through it, into the sediment, >so they >can take root. Ideally, the material >would rot away after 2 years, and not hurt wildlife. > >I made a test wall using galvanized hog wire (2"X4" openings), and separately >.. >orange plastic 'tree protection area' fencing, both covered by burlap. Both >work, >but I'm concerned they won't age well. > >Any references on how to successfully build a biodegradeable retaining wall >would >also be appreciated. > >Thanks, >Greg N. Smith >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08941 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17446 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21996; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20484 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26637 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922143058_1889579401@emout08.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: the other side of scary window stories Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Hi, Chris-- Well...Florida...isn't that where all those roofs blew off in the hurricane because they were never actually nailed on? AND they passed field inspection? Smug in Oregon >Friends, >In my search for window horror stories I have recently been reminded of >"downstream" horrors/opportunities that may also arise when window >performance decisions are not coupled with appropriate "whole house" > perspective. I will share this abbreviated story with the list (the long >version will be discussed at the EEBA conference) with the HOPES OF: >1) enlightenment coupled with humor >2) disgust at such "bad moves" >3) eliciting more stories along this line of thinking >Regards, >Chris Mathis >MCSquared > >My buddy Steve buys a new house in Orlando. Typical single-glazed aluminum >windows. Big air conditioner. Calls me up. "Chris, I can't USE half my >house! South and west sides are just too hot!" What do I propose? (and >remember the value of free advice....) "Hey Steve, do what everyone ELSE in >Florida does.... call up the sun control film installer." Steve does. Calls >back and says "THANKS. Works great. Windows are a little blue, but now I >can use my whole house. And he only charged me $100 a window!" > >and now for "the rest of the story...." (and some perspective on such >decisions) > >Steve's situation is not unusual. His builder installed $89 windows and >about 7 tons of air conditioning (oversized anyway). Steve is happy because >(ignorance is bliss) and he can now use his whole home. So, where is the >horror story? >1. Steve got to MORTGAGE the $89 window at 7.25 % for 30 years. Complete >with all the deductions implied. >2. Steve got to put an additional $100 each on his VISA at between 15% and >24%. Without deductions. >3. Steve's builder could have probably installed a $200 window for the same >basic COST to Steve but with potentially dramatic BENEFITS (energy, comfort, >UV protection, peak load reduction, glare, reduced temp swings, etc.) >4. Steve's builder installed an air conditioner that is now about 30% to 50% >MORE oversized than it was! Which will now (a) short cycle MORE (b) not >dehumidify properly (c) have shorter life (d) cost more to operate and (e) be >noisier than necessary because of the similarly oversized fans.... >5. Steve gets to do it all again in 5 to 10 years.... (or whatever the life >of the sun control film is....) or until his compressor blows up or until he >has to replace IT with one more appropriately sized in the first place. > >Without a "whole house perspective" (by the builder when FIRST constructing >and by Steve/me when "fixing") problems like these can arise. > >As you consider other "window horror stories" I would appreciate any other >"whole house-related" ones that you might have. (door and skylight stories >are also welcome:) > >Lesson # 2. All of you out there installing energy efficient windows, >upgraded insulation, weatherization and improved HVAC packages, PLEASE look >at the big picture. First costs aren't everything.... >Chris > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 23:35:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09358 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25161 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA22577; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:26:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA21327 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28100; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:26:11 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:26:10 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922195916.006cfa34@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 Sacie: Anderson is a very progressive company in the US, Willmar in Canada. The most progressive technology, the most superior windows and the best education/promotional literature are all from Willmar.They are also very cost-effective in our experience over many years. We have used Pella but do not want a Cadillac when a Honda (mine has 444,4000 Km. with no major repair) is superior. Marvin is good and less expensive than Anderson. Anderson windows are often very difficult to justify re: cost, but the quality is there. DECIDE ON WINDOW SIZES, LIST THEM DOWN, FAX THEM TO 3-5 LOCAL SUPPLIERS AND ASK FOR PRICE QUOTE. Then set appointments with the 3 best quotes that balance price and performance.Then work things out with your cooperative salesperson. My main criteria for windows include (in no particular order): 1) local availability/manufacture, 2) renewable not petroleum-based materials, 3) least embodied energy content/pollution before, during and after manufacture 4) low maintainance, 5) comfort (u or R-value, low E surfaces, type of gas), 6) enlightened/educational company literature 7) progressive environmental action by the company, 8) replacement costs (esp. being a cottage), 9) warantee, 10) service record (do they promptly replace windows under warantee, 11) shading coeficient (daylight) 12) solar heat gain coefficient (passive solar input) 13) white sash 14) UV protection 15) weight (for upper windows, no large triple windows) 16) attitude of salespeople (cooperative vs armtwisting) 17) energy rating 18) etc. Windows for different rooms have different purposes. Use air between the panes in the airlock. For a primary residence I would investigate R-5.2-6.3 for the south windows (1 low E + krypton), higher insulation value for the bathroom (comfort-naked people, moisture-condensation). Don't forget about 60% of total window heat loss is radiant, so make sure you address this issue.That is all the free consulting for today.I hope this helps. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > Jorg, > Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective > of energy efficiency and getting your moneys worth? We are working on plans > for a small 24'x30' cabin built on a shallow insulated slab with SIPs for > walls and roof. The small second floor space is under the roof. I am > wrestling with the windows and making a decision about the more expensive > Anderson/Pella/Marvin brands versus less expensive Caradco which offer clad > frames, low e glass and argon-filled space. The cabin will be heated quite > efficiently with wood from our land and will be used only intermittently > until we build our 'real' house which will be a super energy efficient > passive solar structure. I want to install a large ratio of windows on the > west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit > dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. I read with > interest all the window discussions including the information about much > better European windows are than are ours or yours (I think). > I would be grateful for opinions from you and from others on this > list as well. > thanks, Sacie Lambertson > > > > > > >Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. > >>From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > treatments > >that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive > >manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > interested, > >please let me know and I can get you contact information. > >_________________________________________________________ > >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > >e-mail: > >______________________________________________________ > >On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > >healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> > >> I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > companies > >> that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate > >> any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > >> environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > >> > >> --Robyn Heller > >> EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 00:52:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11679 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA09445 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA23769; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22693 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:43:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22689 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p163.ts1.diac.com (p163.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.163]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA11655 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:51:32 GMT Received: by p163.ts1.diac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCC7A9.EBACC4A0@p163.ts1.diac.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:27 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCC7A9.EBACC4A0@p163.ts1.diac.com> From: Gary Dean Gray To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id AAA11679 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 .... I want to install a large ratio of windows on the west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. ... thanks, Sacie Lambertson :Just in case BUDGET and SOLAR GEOMETRY need a little bolstering, lets not forget Chris Alexander... ##################### Zen View ################## "... how should we make the most of a view? It turns out that the pattern which anwsers this question helps to govern not the rooms and windows in a building, but the places of transition. " *** "The archetypal zen view occurs in a famous Japanese house, which gives the pattern its name. A Buddist monk lived high in the mountains, in a small stone house. Far, far in the distance was the ocean, visible and beautiful in the mountains. But it was not visible from the monk's house itself, nor from the approach road to the house. However, in front of the house there stood a courtyard surrounded by a thick stone wall. As one came to the house, one passed through a gate into this court, and then diagonally across the court to the front door of the house. On the far side of the courtyard there was a slit in the wall, narrow and diagonal, cut throught the thickness of the wall. As a person walked accross the court, at one spot, where his position lined up with the slit in the wall, for an instant, he could see the ocean. And then he was past it once again, and went into the house. What happens in this courtyard? The view of the distant sea is so restrained that it stays alive forever. Who, that has ever seen that view, can ever forget it? Its power will never fade. Even for the man who lives there, coming past that view day after day for fifty years, it will still be alive. This is the essence of the problem with any view. It is a beautiful thing. One wants to enjoy it and drink it in every day. But the more open it is, the more obvious, the more it shouts, the sooner it will ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 01:04:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA11818 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:04:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA12097 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24003; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22923 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:56:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22919 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA01523; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:56:18 -0700 Message-ID: <34274B4C.5BD80E7F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:53:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: healthyp@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live with in the long term. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood > windows. > >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > treatments > that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most > progressive > manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > interested, > please let me know and I can get you contact information. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since > 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, > consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, > workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________ > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > companies > > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really > appreciate > > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > > > --Robyn Heller > > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 09:48:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16491 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28735 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01418; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA29070 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA126254; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:30:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:30:23 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <34274B4C.5BD80E7F@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to its caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use Willguard prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. We have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we were to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing would get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, specification and person. ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior > cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would > be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well > with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell > structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other > manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a > fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. > they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they > will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the > treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that > necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide > treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the > period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. > I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally > extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for > contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). > I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a > commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance > issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the > usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial > steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least > environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live > with in the long term. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood > > windows. > > >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > > treatments > > that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most > > progressive > > manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > > interested, > > please let me know and I can get you contact information. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since > > 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, > > consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, > > workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > > office > > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > > Web Site [under construction]: > > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > > e-mail: > > ______________________________________________________ > > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > > healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > > companies > > > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really > > appreciate > > > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > > > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > > > > > --Robyn Heller > > > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:07:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19563 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04651 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03639; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02798 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:53:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02794 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.18] (mke-1-2.binc.net [208.142.229.18]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA88786 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:56:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 10:04:43 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 Jorg, et al, Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed to fail, the window will rot. I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:28:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20638 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA10410 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04240; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:16:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03705 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: MHillLEDA@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA21387; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: crkoehn@mailbag.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 In a message dated 22/09/97 14:59:19, Chris wrote: << The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person per day. That's alot of water! >> By way of comparison, the average use in England is around 150lts/person/day, which is 39.6 US gallons (conversion factor 3.785lts a gallon). There are obviously a lot of eco-friendly people using a lot less than that - one house I'm aware of that's running off rainwater is down to about 10 galls / person / day. What are you doing with the stuff ?? I don't think we're inherently smellier people walking around in dirtier clothes over here ( no replies on this please!). The maximum w.c. flush in England is now 7.5lts (2galls), and there's pressure to allow use of cisterns with less than 1gall flush ( used sucessfully in Scandinavia). The latest washing machines (good ones) use about 55lts (14.5galls) for a full wash cycle. Matthew Hill Leeds Environmental Design Associates ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:51:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20892 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15884 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04826; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:39:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.topher.net (mail.topher.net [206.136.138.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04437 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp15.topher.net [206.136.138.174]) by mail.topher.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA05505; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199709231631.LAA05505@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: MHillLEDA@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: ewestbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 At 12:19 PM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 22/09/97 14:59:19, Chris wrote: > ><< The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person > per day. That's alot of water! > >> and Matthew Hill replied: >By way of comparison, the average use in England is around 150lts/person/day, >which is 39.6 US gallons (conversion factor 3.785lts a gallon). >What are you doing with the stuff ?? >The latest washing machines (good ones) use about 55lts (14.5galls) for a >full wash cycle. > A few factors we should remember: 1. Municipal average gpcd figures include nonresidential uses -- commercial, industrial, system losses, etc. If I'm remembering correctly, most of those ~100 gpcd figures were based on these total uses. If UK figures are based on actual household use, let's compare apples to apples: the two households who gave actual numbers to this list were both using about 33 US gallons per day per person. (Granted, we're all relatively "green" here, but still.) 2. I could be way off-base here, but I would bet that a lot of the remaining difference goes to landscape watering. Do Americans have bigger yards, on average? Are they more addicted to lawns that look like golf courses? (yuck) They are in my suburb. The rest of the difference probably goes to larger, less efficient appliances. I can't find the exact figure, but I seem to remember than an average US washer uses 40-50 gallons per complete wash cycle. If the average family does 4-5 loads per week, that's a lot of water! Horizontal-axis washers have been very difficult to find over here; I was delighted to see that a new top-load, horizontal-axis washer is being introduced. ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 13:33:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21309 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28780 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05790; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:24:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06006 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA20773; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:34:46 -0700 Message-Id: <3427FBEB.1535@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:27:07 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: lalevantis@hw1.cahwnet.gov Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 MARY: Clearly, reducing the sources of pollutants (indoors and outdoors) is the most effective, direct strategy. In addition, "building flush-out" (hi air exchange rate and hi air mixing/surface velocity), even at normal temperatures, can avoid unnecssary pollutant exposures during initial occupancy. California's bldg. stds. now require a daily pre-occupancy flush-out of non-residential bldgs. (contact Calif. Energy Commission, 916.654.4064 re: Title 24 bldg. design stds.). Swedish researchers recommend running the HVAC at high outdoor air flows for up to 6 months after initial occupancy (see articles by Birgitta Berglund, Indoor Air proceedings, ASHRAE proceedings, etc.). Annual inspection and mintenance of HVAC systems in workplaces is also required in Calif. Building commissioning, i.e., performance testing of all systems in a completed building, should help avoid many problems typically found in new office building ventilation systems. Based on energy savings alone, building commissioning appears to be very worthwhile. See previous Bldg. Commissioning conferences at http://www.teleport.com/~peci/index.htm, and Sustainable Bldg. conference at http://fcn.state.fl.us/fdi/e-design/online/9704/cx-dade.htm. The State of Florida has also begun using bldg. commissioning in its new bldgs., I gather. Canada has an R2000 Office Building project in progress that may be of interest too. The Calif. Dept. of Health Services IAQ Program has recently produced VOC Guidelines which address these issues. Contact Leon Alevantis, 510.540.2132, lalevantis@hw1.cahwnet.gov. Cheers, Tom Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 From: "Mary McDaniel" Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 14:11:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22894 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10710 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08625; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:01:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07360 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA21815; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:11:53 -0700 Message-Id: <3428049D.79EF@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:04:14 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: lalevant@hw1.cahwnet.gov Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 MARY: Clearly, reducing the sources of pollutants (indoors and outdoors) is the most effective, direct strategy. In addition, "building flush-out" (hi air exchange rate and hi air mixing/surface velocity), even at normal temperatures, can avoid unnecssary pollutant exposures during initial occupancy. California's bldg. stds. now require a daily pre-occupancy flush-out of non-residential bldgs. (contact Calif. Energy Commission, 916.654.4064 re: Title 24 bldg. design stds.). Swedish researchers recommend running the HVAC at high outdoor air flows for up to 6 months after initial occupancy (see articles by Birgitta Berglund, Indoor Air proceedings, ASHRAE proceedings, etc.). Annual inspection and mintenance of HVAC systems in workplaces is also required in Calif. Building commissioning, i.e., performance testing of all systems in a completed building, should help avoid many problems typically found in new office building ventilation systems. Based on energy savings alone, building commissioning appears to be very worthwhile. See previous Bldg. Commissioning conferences at http://www.teleport.com/~peci/index.htm, and Sustainable Bldg. conference at http://fcn.state.fl.us/fdi/e-design/online/9704/cx-dade.htm. The State of Florida has also begun using bldg. commissioning in its new bldgs., I gather. Canada has an R2000 Office Building project in progress that may be of interest too. The Calif. Dept. of Health Services IAQ Program has recently produced VOC Guidelines which address these issues. Contact Leon Alevantis, 510.540.2132, lalevant@hw1.cahwnet.gov. Cheers, Tom Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 From: "Mary McDaniel" Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 15:40:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24197 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09319 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12422; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10189 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:31:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10185 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.112] (pa-ppp27.hevanet.com [204.119.60.112]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28549 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3427FBEB.1535@arb.ca.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 Hello, Building Bakers-- Say, one question that has perplexed me about the building bakeout concept--where does all that pollution go after it leaves the building? Is that acceptable? Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 15:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24366 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15173 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13244; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:49:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10782 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-23-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.23]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31790 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:11 -0400 Message-ID: <34281DE0.753@together.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:00 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: High Testosterone in Violent Women Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Militant Feminists, eh? Tuesday September 23 2:09 PM EDT High Testosterone in Violent Women NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Women who commit violent crimes and show "aggressive dominance" in prison are more likely to have high levels of testosterone than other female inmates, a study shows. The report in the September-October issue of the journal Psychosomatic Medicine notes that older female prison inmates whose testosterone levels decreased with age also showed decreased aggressive behavior -- but not those whose hormone levels remained high. "The study shows that testosterone in females has much the same effect as it has in males. In the context of prison, women are more dominant and tended to have committed violent crimes," says Dr. James Dabbs, professor of psychology at Georgia State University in Atlanta. Dabbs points out that levels of testosterone in women "are much lower than in men, maybe a tenth of the levels in men. But among (women) themselves, they are equally varied in that in some women, the levels may be twice as high as in others, as in some men they are twice as high as others." The study included 87 female inmates, ages 17 to 60, at a maximum security prison. The women's testosterone levels were measured via a test of saliva, which Dabbs says correlates with blood levels of the hormone. The Georgia researchers examined the women's court records and made assessments of their prison behavior based on prison records and interviews with staff. According to Dabbs, the new findings are similar to those in recent studies of male prison inmates in which testosterone levels were highest among men convicted of violent crimes such as rape, homicide, assault. As inmates they also violated more prison rules. According to Dabbs, additional but "tentative" findings in his study pertain to five women whose testosterone levels were lowest. Three staff members (without knowledge of the inmates' hormone levels) "used the phrases 'very manipulative,' 'denies her part in problems,' 'sneaky,' a 'snake in the grass,"' to describe the five, Dabbs notes. And when asked for a single adjective that best described these inmates, all agreed "treacherous" was the word. According to Dabbs, this subjective assessment of the five "makes sense." "If you're going to be straightforward in your behavior, you need a lot of gumption behind it." Thus, lacking the "gumption" conferred by higher hormone levels, these women find ways to be "equally bad -- bad-tempered or bad-natured -- but are afraid to show it directly," he explains. Still, Dabbs acknowledges the possibility of a chicken versus egg question; that is, which comes first -- the hormone level or the violent behavior? "It's both. Testosterone comes at a certain level, and some people are higher than others and always have been and will be, and that's going to make them a little bit different," he says. "On the other hand, behavior is going to change it (testosterone level). In studies of athletes, winning a contest increases testosterone and in studies of animals, winning a fight increases testosterone," he points out. "In my view, the most important part is how the testosterone affects the behavior, because some people are just chronically higher in testosterone," Dabbs adds. But the researcher says the new study "does not imply testosterone is the only variable or the most important one. Social factors, physical condition, and other hormones undoubtedly contribute to criminal behavior and behavior in prison." SOURCE: Psychosomatic Medicine (1997;59) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 16:01:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24410 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16166 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13336; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10882 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-23-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.23]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31873 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:55:08 -0400 Message-ID: <34281E91.116@together.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:54:57 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: Message sent by Mistake Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 Oops.! I sent a message to you about female hormones/female violence. :-) It was sent to you by mistake. My regrets. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 16:29:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24769 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23780 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14246; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11635 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.229] (1Cust101.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.229]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA21705 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709232022.NAA21705@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 13:21:04 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 Mike Didn't you know "dilution is the solution to pollution?" ;-) Bruce >Hello, Building Bakers-- > >Say, one question that has perplexed me about the building bakeout >concept--where does all that pollution go after it leaves the building? > >Is that acceptable? > >Best, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 18:45:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27053 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29606 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17936; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA15579 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-14b03.direct.ca [204.174.251.67] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xDdav-0006pQ-00; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:38:14 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows (digest V1 #397) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:51 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 >From: John Salmen > : > > Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior > cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would > be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well > with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell > structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other > manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a > fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. > they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they > will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the > treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that > necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide > treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the > period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. A fungicide is used is because it is a requirement of the CSA standard for wood window frames. ALL wood windows, whether clad or not, have to be treated. Perhaps the standard should be reviewed? The aluminum (or vinyl) cladding actualy protects the wood in most cases, and provides a durable exterior finish. > I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally > extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for > contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). > I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a > commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance > issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the > usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial > steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least > environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live > with in the long term. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > Richard Kadulski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 21:12:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29164 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04092 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20600; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:57:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19007 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:57:09 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts36l3.pathcom.com (ts36l3.pathcom.com [209.112.18.166]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26193; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709240059.UAA26193@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: MHillLEDA@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:55:39 +0000 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water usage Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 One big difference I have seen in some countries is that when others shower they turn on the water, get wet, and turn it off. After soaping and scrubbing, they turn it on again to rinse. N Americans seem to leave the water running, hot and heavy, for the duration. This does seem unnecessary since I have seen another way. Never thought about it before that. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 21:53:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00360 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13492 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA21616; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20116 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust61.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.61]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24398; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:37:07 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MHillLEDA@aol.com CC: crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? References: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 That's a question that I get sooner or later from most colleagues/friends from the UK. There are several reasons which you alluded to: 1. Europeans in general have long used horizontal axis washing machines, which use 20 -60% less water than the machines in common use in American homes. 2. Water closets have been no greater than 9 -12 litres/flush for quite a while from what I understand, compared to 16- 20 litres/flush in the US prior to 1982 or so and 13 litres from 1982 - 1994. 3. Although the UK is incorrectly assumed by many Americans to be rainy, there is a big hunk of the US which is really dry. Outdoor water use in the southwest and southern CA is pretty high. What other characteristics would you point to? http://waterwiser.org -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 09:52:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08364 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16467 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00972; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:39:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00409 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133258; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:38:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:38:51 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Warren C. Liebold" Cc: MHillLEDA@aol.com, crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? In-Reply-To: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 Warren: Over the last several years our average demand for water is 2 cubic meters per month in our home in Calgary Alberta Canada. We use a .6 L flush toilet and a waterless toilet. We also collect rainwater. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 10:33:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08953 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27198 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01629; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:24:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01574; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA129790; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:24:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:24:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn Cc: GB List , strawbale@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window In-Reply-To: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: 1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint 2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel 3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions welcomed. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > Jorg, et al, > > Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) > , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind > the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) > windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed > to fail, the window will rot. > > I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to > pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 12:31:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12385 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09978 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03869; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:14:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04709 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts12p11.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA24165; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:16:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970924161835.006bd55c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:18:35 -0500 To: ggray@diac.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Christopher A/s notion of windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 Gary, I didn't forget Christopher A's admonition about a view. I considered it and then decided I want to put in bigger windows than he might have liked. One doesn't sit all day and look out; in fact you usually forget about the window until you want to notice. And then it is very nice to have a great place on which to look. For the same reason I wouldn't want to climb a tower every day there is a gorgeous sunset. I want it right there when I decide to look. Nature changes every day; I want to see those changes. But thanks---------C.A.'s right in most ways. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 14:03:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15001 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04307 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07086; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08000 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:52:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07993 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA19885 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970924135316_978400030@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Yard Waste? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Hello GBListers: I have a client who has raised an interesting question. She is building a new house in Los Angeles to specifications for chemical sensitivity and is concerned about the environment in general. She has three large dogs which she keeps in a special area of the yard. She has 6 cats which stay in the house, in a special area with its own air handler and ventilation, using a "green" brand of cat litter. Her concern is that these animals produce a large volume of "waste product" manifesting several problems: 1. Storm drainage from the dogs' yard may be damaging the surrounding ground. Can anything be done to protect groundwater, air and soil? What ecological or health hazards are involved? 2. LA can be very hot and odors can be quite strong. Are there any environmentally sound ways to reduce the steaming stench? 3. Flushing dog and cat waste down the toilet uses a lot of water. Can it be composted or otherwise utilized? 4. Placing such a large volume of this "product" in the trash not only produces odor problems, but seems wasteful if there is a constructive use for the material. Are there any environmentally sound alternatives to the usual means of disposal? Can this waste stream act as "resource" for some other useful process? I throw out this challenge in hopes that some of you may have already discovered design or mechanical solutions for this problem. Several of you have discussed alternative waste systems, Permaculture, composting, and other related issues. There are pets in many homes and this seems important not only to the health and well being of the residents and neighbors, but to the larger environment as well. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 14:33:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15436 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13393 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08304; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:22:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09111; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11333; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id NAA27267; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709241756.NAA27267@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: ideal environmental window Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 on Wed Sep 24 1997 jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: [snipped & pasted for brevity] > Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: > ...(1) environmentally-sound paint 2) prepainted or > enamelled recycled steel 3) recycled plastic > The wood could be strawboard Hello Jorg and IdealHeads; I have to wonder if there is such a thing as an "environmentally- sound" paint that will stand up to the rigourous conditions that a window experiences. Aren't such paints usually a chemical stew ? (I don't think I'd care to drink the stuff.) IMO, paint over rot-prone material in *any* exterior application is a short-lived, high-maintenance and generally unsatisfactory solution to the problem of weather protection. The better solution would seem to be to use an inherently weather-resistant material. I'm not sure that painted, recycled steel is any more Green Virtuous either. I don't have any numbers for the energy inputs required to recycle steel but I suspect that it is almost as high as for new steel. In view of the fact that strawboard is dimensionally unstable in the presence of moisture, it would seem to be a poor choice for something that requires the close tolerances that window frames and sash would demand. Perhaps something like the recycled wood composites or recycled plastic that are used for outdoor deck lumber, which are inherently weather-resistant to the core, could be used. I have no idea what the R & U values are for these materials, but I suspect it is comparable to real wood and certainly better than aluminum. I've never seen the "pull-truded" shredded fiberglass/resin frame/sash windows produced by Accurate Dorwin, Winnipeg Manitoba (204) 667-5078) (mentioned in Wayne Grady's "Green Home"), but it seems that AD's idea would be a reasonable alternative to painted or aluminum-clad wood. AD's R-8 centre of glass (or Canadian rating of ER-1 (net energy gain of 1 watt per square metre in *any* orientation in winter) sounds pretty good too. Perhaps not ideal, but not bad. Eh ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 15:58:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17151 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08748 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10300; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12245 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.116] (pa-ppp31.hevanet.com [204.119.60.116]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21418 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> References: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 Hello, All-- When we visited friends in England, I noticed that everything was smaller than its American equivalent. Houses, windows, shower stalls, cars, refrigerators, shops, grocery carts--everything seems about 3/4 scale, compared to the US. I don't think you'd ever see an English family doing a Costco run and hauling $500 worth of stuff on the handcart to load into their sport-ute and get home to their two freezers in their 3,000 SF house with 52" home video theater and 9-channel surround sound. English people still buy pints of milk, wear the same shirt twice, wash instead of showering and have to pay coins directly into their household electric meter to keep the lights on. Maybe they are just more aware of costs and consumption than we are? Best, Mike >That's a question that I get sooner or later from most >colleagues/friends from the UK. There are several reasons which you >alluded to: > >1. Europeans in general have long used horizontal axis washing >machines, which use 20 -60% less water than the machines in common use >in American homes. > >2. Water closets have been no greater than 9 -12 litres/flush for quite >a while from what I understand, compared to 16- 20 litres/flush in the >US prior to 1982 or so and 13 litres from 1982 - 1994. > >3. Although the UK is incorrectly assumed by many Americans to be >rainy, there is a big hunk of the US which is really dry. Outdoor water >use in the southwest and southern CA is pretty high. > >What other characteristics would you point to? > >http://waterwiser.org > >-- >Warren C. Liebold > >wliebold@waonline.com >wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net > >Director of Conservation >New York City Department of Environmental Protection > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 16:00:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17201 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09420 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10359; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12243 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.116] (pa-ppp31.hevanet.com [204.119.60.116]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21413 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 Hello, Jorg-- What about the fiberglass frames? Wouldn't they last indefinitely? Isn't the finished fiberglass chemically inert? Best, Mike >Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what >would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? > >Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: >1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint >2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel >3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) > >The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 >year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have >experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions >welcomed. >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: >> Jorg, et al, >> >> Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) >> , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind >> the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) >> windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed >> to fail, the window will rot. >> >> I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to >> pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. >> >> Chris Koehn >> Top Ridge >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 19:36:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA22013 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA12635 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15214; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:21:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18848 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133830; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:20:54 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:20:54 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Mike: Having worked with fiberglass in construction, I am very concerned with serious air pollution and embodied energy during manufacturing.I would rather work with a renewable resource such as straw or even wood over fiberglass. Also is it not a petroleum resource? Perhaps someone can enlighten me, if I am wrong. Durability and maintenance are excellent. How similar is its coefficient of expansion/contraction to that of glass? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Mike O'Brien wrote: > > Hello, Jorg-- > > What about the fiberglass frames? Wouldn't they last indefinitely? Isn't > the finished fiberglass chemically inert? > > Best, Mike > > >Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what > >would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? > > > >Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: > >1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint > >2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel > >3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) > > > >The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 > >year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have > >experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions > >welcomed. > >_________________________________________________________ > >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > >e-mail: > >______________________________________________________ > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > >> Jorg, et al, > >> > >> Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) > >> , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind > >> the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) > >> windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed > >> to fail, the window will rot. > >> > >> I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to > >> pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. > >> > >> Chris Koehn > >> Top Ridge > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > O'Brien & Associates > Environmental Building Consultants > Portland General Electric Earth Smart program > obrien@hevanet.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 21:32:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24540 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09096 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17898; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:22:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22195 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:22:18 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA19550 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970924212229_1097784358@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Hi, I'm new to the list and have been following the discussion on "best windows". Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 years? Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air again? Does the film degenerate similarily? We are about to begin our Second Neighborhood design and hope to push the envelope of possibilities a little further. The first neighborhood did a few things that may be of interest to some. We have used exhaust- only air handling with heating for up to eight houses handled by energy centers with mixed results so far. Hopefully further tweaking will bring them up to expectations. The large 'common house' uses hydronic radiant floors with air conditioned via pond cooling and HRVs. Much of our systems have been running for only a short while and data is preliminary. I have been impressed by the knowledge and skills many people have on this list and hope to be able to contribute some field data and the occasional word of wisdom. Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY. USA. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:10:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28142 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA27810 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA20867; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA26346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:58:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA26342 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA13041; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:58:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3429EEF6.3EBBEF68@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:56:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 (I noticed that the conversation has progressed since I began this but what the heck - It takes me a while to catch up) I'm sorry if I gave any offense - I did not intend to. I assumed Jorg was referring to aluminum clad windows which is the most popular Wilmar and similar manuf. line of windows. As one might suspect I am not a fan of claddings and need to be convinced that maintenance issues cannot be adequately addressed without putting two materials together with all kinds of gaskets, sealers and binders and additives to compensate for radically different expansion capacities or difficulties of design. There are a large host of issues here REQUIREMENTS FOR EXT. MAINTENANCE: The usage of aluminum and chlorine based plastics or benzene polymers (vinyl) for the purposes of protecting the exterior of a wood window seems extreme or wasteful. Not just the material itself but the process of window. manuf. itself becomes overly complicated. - low voc paints are not providing the ext. protection that previous finishes could and in the case of latex actually can entrap moisture and compromise the longevity of ext. wood usage. - advances in making windows air and moisture tight (side and face gaskets, etc) are preventing air movement around a window and keeping moisture in contact with wood. - surface or face mounting of windows rather than traditional recess put the wood elements in more direct exposure to the elements. The above comments bring up the question for me about the general current suitability of wood as a material for windows (a difficult question for me as we have used nothing but wood windows in our buildings but then we have a lot of control over both their manufacture and placement). Wood has long represented some of the green values of alternative or sustainable building efforts and as a visible element in a home it has been a 'natural' choice. How natural though is a product soaked in a solvent base containing fungicides and insecticides. Despite Jorg's warranty that this is not a serious issue, similar dip treatment of wood was considered a serious enough issue to be banned for import by the EEC and was the original motivation for us to develop alternative wood sources (not that long ago most framing and finishing materials in N.A. were treated with antifungal agents.) I don't think this is a 'its not a perfect world' issue as I mentioned previously Willmar for one will forego the treatment at no extra cost - I do think it is an issue that such information is not made explicit and I think it is a serious issue for the increasing number of people that are chemically sensitive and are making what they assume to be safe choices. I was not aware that treatment was a CSA requirement for approval. I am aware that the only Canadian building code requirements concerning windows are based in mechanical performance and that a large number of windows and window components are manufactured and exported without treatment. I would like to comment on alternatives but will save it for another post. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to > its > caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use > Willguard > prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. > We > have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, > amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on > health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we > were > to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing > would > get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, > specification and person. > > ________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:27:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28287 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00294 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21075; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:18:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26586 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA13264; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:18:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3429F37D.F155A455@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:15:41 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Windows and ideals circ.19TH CENT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 William Morris commenting on the advent and increased residential usage of large sheet glass (as apposed to multi-paned windows) said something to the effect - 'if you want to feel like your outside - go outside' John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:52:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28412 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA03869 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22927; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:43:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26943 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.104.29] (hdn100-029.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.104.29]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA14676; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:45:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:45:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199709250545.WAA14676@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Safe Insulation? / Moisture To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 > bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) wrote: > I have Chemical Sensitivity, and would greatly appreciate some > suggestions on making our attic/crawlspace less unhealthy for me. > > In crawlspace is old insulation- a ground up paper type of blown > in insulation. I have been advised to have it removed, and replaced with > something that is a "safer" alternative for myself- with my condition. ----------------------------------------------------------- Response by: Bion Howard ----------------------------------------------------------- Cellulose insulation properly installed is one of the safest green products on the market. It is only when improperly installed and allowed to get wet that it can start to serve as a food source and substrate for fungii. I would be reluctant to install cellulose in a crawl space unless it were very well designed for moisture resistance, and the site had terrific drainage. In most cases I would be comfortable using cellulose, but not in a crawl space. In fact, I would not recommend any home built on a crawl space for a person with MCS in the first place. In an attic, cellulose insulation should prove to be a good application. More information on cellulose insulation: http://www.cellulose.org --------------- crawl space funk ------------- Where there _is_ a lot of moisture there are several key approaches to remedy your problem: 1. eliminate sources of moisture to extent possible 2. get a professional blower-door guided seal-up job done on the interface between the crawl space and home !!! especially bad are leaky return ducts located in crawl space !!! 3. spec insul product having good tested moisture resistance 4. install product per manufacturers instructions 5. be sure the entire assembly has a way to dry out, since there are times when otherwise good materials can create "vapor dams" (after: Bill Lotz, ASHRAE) 6. consider products that themselves dry out; ironically treated cellulose will dry out, and so will many other insulations, but they can become compacted lowering their R-factor. There are a variety of good moisture references. Look for DOE Moisture Handbook (EEBA and Oikos both have this) and for the ASTM Moisture STP by Heinz Treschel (1990 ?) These are the main ones. Secondary sources, Joe Lstiburek and Canadian Building Digests (several #'s) ### ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 10:58:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05396 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07870 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00393; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:39:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA04583 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29088; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <3429EEF6.3EBBEF68@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 John: Thank you for your excellent commentary. I will have to review it in greater depth to see which of your specific comments may be incorporated into our R-20 prototype window. Perhaps this effort can be a team effort (with some of the best minds in the field) and any people with constructive comments and practical suggestions will be given credit once the actual fabrication goes ahead. No guarantees, but my best effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the meeting of minds on the internet can lead to a practical REAL WORLD development that would be the leading edge? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > (I noticed that the conversation has progressed since I began this but > what the heck - It takes me a while to catch up) > > I'm sorry if I gave any offense - I did not intend to. I assumed Jorg > was referring to aluminum clad windows which is the most popular Wilmar > and similar manuf. line of windows. As one might suspect I am not a fan > of claddings and need to be convinced that maintenance issues cannot be > adequately addressed without putting two materials together with all > kinds of gaskets, sealers and binders and additives to compensate for > radically different expansion capacities or difficulties of design. > > There are a large host of issues here > REQUIREMENTS FOR EXT. MAINTENANCE: The usage of aluminum and chlorine > based plastics or benzene polymers (vinyl) for the purposes of > protecting the exterior of a wood window seems extreme or wasteful. Not > just > the material itself but the process of window. manuf. itself becomes > overly complicated. > - low voc paints are not providing the ext. protection that previous > finishes could and in the case of latex actually can entrap moisture and > compromise the longevity of ext. wood usage. > - advances in making windows air and moisture tight (side and face > gaskets, etc) are preventing air movement around a window and keeping > moisture in contact with wood. > - surface or face mounting of windows rather than traditional recess put > the wood elements in more direct exposure to the elements. > > The above comments bring up the question for me about the general > current suitability of wood as a material for windows (a difficult > question for me as we have used nothing but wood windows in our > buildings but then we have a lot of control over both their manufacture > and placement). > > Wood has long represented some of the green values of alternative or > sustainable building efforts and as a visible element in a home it has > been a 'natural' choice. How natural though is a product soaked in a > solvent base containing fungicides and insecticides. > > Despite Jorg's warranty that this is not a serious issue, similar dip > treatment of wood was considered a serious enough issue to be banned for > import by the EEC and was the original motivation for us to develop > alternative wood sources (not that long ago most framing and finishing > materials in N.A. were treated with antifungal agents.) I don't think > this is a 'its not a perfect world' issue as I mentioned previously > Willmar for one will forego the treatment at no extra cost - I do think > it is an issue that such information is not made explicit and I think it > is a serious issue for the increasing number of people that are > chemically sensitive and are making what they assume to be safe choices. > > I was not aware that treatment was a CSA requirement for approval. I am > aware that the only Canadian building code requirements concerning > windows are based in mechanical performance and that a large number of > windows and window components are manufactured and exported without > treatment. > > I would like to comment on alternatives but will save it for another > post. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S > > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to > > its > > caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use > > Willguard > > prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. > > We > > have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, > > amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on > > health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we > > were > > to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing > > would > > get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, > > specification and person. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 11:05:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05505 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:05:08 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09600 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00889; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709251455.KAA05085@solstice.crest.org> X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: ksipro@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Info requested on: "4 Times Square" References: <199709242112.RAA21632@phl3.iacnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Greenbuilding list -- anybody able to give this person some leads on subject project? Thanks, Bion ====================================================== Andrea Ruble wrote: > from = ksipro@aol.com > company = KnightScenes, Inc. > phone = 202-289-2201 > I'm writing to find out if you know anything about > 4 Time[s] Square, a model energy efficient office building under > construction in NYC. I need help locating a contact person who > can provide video footage for a DOE project I am producing. > Thank you... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 11:10:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05568 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10761 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00834; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05065 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.189] (1Cust61.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.189]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA24591 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709251457.HAA24591@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 07:56:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 >Wouldn't it be >wonderful if the meeting of minds on the internet can lead to a practical >REAL WORLD development that would be the leading edge? Jorg, This is exactly the point of our discussion group. Let me know if there's anything the moderators can do to help. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 13:02:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09766 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11763 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03252; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:53:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08859 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA88174; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:55:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199709251655.LAA88174@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:04:09 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Jorg Ostrowski" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 Ideal environmental window? It's a tough question. I like the idea of really good paint, except for two caveats: Today's homeowners don't want the maintenance associated with a painted exterior surface as tedious to re-paint as windows; and traditional, good exterior paint is probably as bad for the environment as aluminum, accounting for manufacturing, and lifetime costs (that's not a studied conclusion- just my opinion). During the 5 years I worked for Pella, I never heard talk of Steel cladding. My only guess would be that it is more difficult to work- especially in the field. Aluminum can be cut in the field with carpenter's tools. Steel can't. Does steel have less embodied energy than aluminum? I know that the factory applied finishes of steel siding are warranted against rust for a long, long time, so that's not really an issue. Ponderosa pine is an ideal material to make wood windows from in many respects. However, it does rot easily, and is not generally harvested "greenly". Perhaps there are other wood species with similar characteristics such as machineability and thermal performance, that would be naturally more rot resistant. Any wood scientists out there? Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 14:19:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10567 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04004 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04956; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:08:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11380 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA04914 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925140823_1030731599@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any ideas? Rob Harrison Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA __lyrical sustainable design__ also... Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 14:27:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10608 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06371 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04996; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11479 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:10:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11475 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:10:09 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA05647 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925140831_-1431136688@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Planted Roofs in Seattle Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 For a current residential project here near Seattle (a small house in Sharingwood Cohousing), I'm looking for information on planted roofs. Appropriate details, materials, plant species for this area, etc. Anyone have experience or sources? I'm imagining something like a mix of low-growing, blooming ground covers such as thyme, mint, heathers, some wildflowers (but all hopefully native species) on a perlite/vermiculite based soil, over EnkaDrain geotextile on elastomeric membrane roofing over stressed skin panels (non-CFC EPS insulation). Thanks. Rob Harrison Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA __lyrical sustainable design__ also... Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:05:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11017 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17845 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06813; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12893 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA127512; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:52:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:52:38 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RHDesign@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <970925140823_1030731599@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 Rob: If you can make it to Pomona & San Diego CA, then the "Center for Regenerative Studies" and the "Ridgehaven Municipal Building" respectively are very worthwhile, especially the first. Local listserve members can give you directions if interested. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RHDesign@aol.com wrote: > > I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested > in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any > ideas? > > Rob Harrison > Robert Harrison Architects > Seattle, WA > __lyrical sustainable design__ > > also... > > Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ > --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:11:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11096 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19443 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07025; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13180 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA15595; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925150210_-1263420666@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Jorg said... >>If you can make it to Pomona & San Diego CA, then the "Center for Regenerative Studies" and the "Ridgehaven Municipal Building" respectively are very worthwhile, especially the first.<< Yes, I've seen the Center published--I'd like to see that. We are in fact going to San Diego as well. >> Local listserve members can give you directions if interested.<< Yes, we're interested! Rob ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:42:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11442 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28056 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08224; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14209 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA04279 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07919; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709251933.PAA07919@saltmine.radix.net> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 Hi Everybody, I'm buying a piece of land in Missouri that I hope to start building a house on in the spring. There are a lot of rocks from when the pasture was de-rocked years ago and I plan on using them as the primary building material. The house will be banked into the hillside as much as practically possible. I have a floor plan I like almost done, and started doing calculations on the energy budget. I need a cheap way of insulating the walls. I thought about building a strawbale wall inside of the stone wall, but that would make the walls very thick. I thought about making a double wall of stone/concrete but that doubles my work. I'd rather not build a studwall inside the stone wall just to have a place to put insulation, but I'm running out of choices. If I do build either an inner studwall or an inner stone/concrete wall and fill the gap with insulation, will straw work? I like the R-value numbers I see for strawbales, but would want to make the straw part thinner than a full bale. Has anybody looked a the insulating properties of straw that is not baled? Is there a known density for maximum R-value? Are there any natural insulators that will work well between a concrete roof and a layer of soil? About half of my roof will be underground. Thanks -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 17:44:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13533 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04126 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12148; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17944 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17938 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA00571 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173528_336856427@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: RodLambert@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 Rod asked: << Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 years?>> snip, and << we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air again? Does the film degenerate similarily? >> Rod, Unfortunately, you hit a home run with this line of thinking. Standards for "long term performance" and "performance degradation" have been LONG in DEVELOPMENT and short on application. BUT, Take Heart! There are some interesting activities afoot that are (hopefully) going to take some major steps toward the answers you seek. First, NFRC has a "long term energy performance" subcommittee that is about to initiate a very aggressive test program to evaluate how a few SPECIFIC performance indices change when subjected to accellerated weathering. (Aside.... there has been little agreement among the technical and standards community as to WHAT should be tested and HOW it should be tested) NFRC dodged THAT bullet (kinda) and developed its own proposed protocol (based in part on some of the unheeded suggestions of the past) and testing is about to begin on about 20 windows in a one-year program. Hot, cold, UV, operation, water, repeats, extremes, etc. (For details on the test plan, contact NFRC at 301-589-NFRC.) Prior to, during and followinf the testing, window air leakage and U-factor will be assessed. In theory, these values will be used to adjust the initial performance values based on the long term performance expectations for that particular product. Yes, this is STILL a long way off.... but you and those like you that are actually THINK about long term performance should get involved in this (and similar projects) to MAKE SURE THEY SUCCEED!!!! and the short answers to your questions include: Argon (and other gasses) WILL leak out over time (as long as the laws of physics and diffusion hold up) and will be replaced by air. In high performanece units this is particularly bad because the moisture laden air condenses on the metal surfaces of the films and coatings and corrosion (RUST) will result. "Low-e" will become "High-E" and energy performance goes (dare I say it?) out the wi...... The up-side is that a good IG unit's seal SHOULD last a pretty long time.... 20+ years? Standard rant about window and IG warranties..... read the fine print and pick a manufacturer that will be there and stand behind their product.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 17:49:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13595 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA05440 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12403; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:40:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin38.mail.aol.com (emout40.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18140; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:40:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: by emin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02606; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173456_-663148183@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 Sorry list.... can't resist.... Regarding "leading edge" window developments, green and otherwise..... In the spirit of "whole building mindsets", and even though I am often one of the first to proclaim the benefits of energy efficient windows, I also believe that we do not NEED an R-20 window.... not that the technology that it might incorporate would be VERY interesting (and I will stay in the discussion because of that). We don't NEED one if we treat the house as a WHOLE and PLAN our window placement, performance requirements and longevity expectations... Our friends at LBNL and MIT and NREL and Los Alamos and other places have shown that windows can be net energy gainers.... both seasonally and annually.... heating and cooling.... especially when we view ALL aspects of window performance (U-factor, Solar Gain, Air leakage, etc.) We can easily show that a window with a fairly low U-factor, say 0.2 to 0.3 and a reasonable Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, maybe 0.4, can be nearly energy neutral in most of the US. WAIT! ... and in Canada, maybe a bit higher solar gain is needed and maybe a bit lower U-factor. Still, R-3.3 to 5.0 is a long way from R-20. and even if the surface temperatures would be a bit warmer and the condensation would be less, will the costs ever justify the MARGINAL increase in energy savings? and will the embodied energy of the technology ever BALANCE against these savings? OKOKOK, I'm not intending to squelch the discussion.... because it is needed as a part to raise the most BASIC levels of understanding about windows and the conservation opportunities with EXISTING technologies.... let alone electrochromics or vaccum or other "high tech" solutions.... (the passive solar hippie in me sighs loudly....) I just wish we would better use what we have today.... I wonder how much energy that would save? OH, we have the answer to THAT question... In a 1996 paper by Dariush Arasteh and Joe Eto at LBNL, they projected that if we could replace all existing residentiall windows with CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY, we could save about 4 quads..... annually..... that's 4 QUADRILION Btus..... about 1/20 of the total annual US consumption..... Of course, this issues is kinda like saying, do we need a 32 valve, fuel injected 350 horsepower car when Jorg's 440,000 km Honda is still going strong? (by the way, I drive a Honda too.....) Peace to all, Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:06:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA13880 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA09415 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12187; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:35:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17961; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:36 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA27818; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173529_2087562858@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org cc: TruNord@aol.com Subject: GBlist: window warranties Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 Friends, Several have commented about window and door performance and the range of manufacturer claims and warranties. I have considered putting together a list of "warranty things to look for".... Is this of interest to members of the list? Unnecessary? Should it be a group discussion? or taken off line? Not wanting to abuse the spirit or focus of the lists, I would appreciate your thoughts. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:22:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14040 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12866 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13248; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:09:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from borderline.cpts.com (borderline.cpts.com [204.250.149.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18977 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by BORDERLINE with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:13:36 -0700 Message-ID: <41C9C00E98A7D011828700606708162B06E9B3@BRASSBALLS> From: Glenn Minch To: "Paul S. Hetrick" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:14:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 Hi Paul, I saw an article not long ago (I'm not sure where, but I will look for it this weekend if you're interested - perhaps someone else on the list is familar with this builder?) that detailed how to build an insulated stone wall. The builder is based in Montana, and he builds stone houses in Montana and Wyoming. His approach is to use the slip-form method, which uses a wooden form much like that used for poured concrete walls. The stone walls are built inside the form, which is then 'slipped' upward as the wall rises. This results in a uniform and plumb wall. The method is also said to reduce the labor and skill involved in constructing a stone wall, as the precise fitment of stones is unnecessary. The form holds everything in place until the motar cures. As I recall, he insulates the walls with a foam core. The foam is centered in the form, then the stones and mortar are added on each side of the foam. Short lengths of rebar tie the inner and outer stone walls together. I can't recall how thick the finished wall was but from what I remember of the pictures I'd guess that the wall was somewhere around 16" thick. I very much liked the look of the finished houses. They looked as if they'd always been there; very easy on the land. Regards, Glenn Minch > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul S. Hetrick [SMTP:monk@Radix.Net] > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 1997 12:33 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. > > > Hi Everybody, > > I'm buying a piece of land in Missouri that I hope to start building a > > house on in the spring. There are a lot of rocks from when the > pasture > was de-rocked years ago and I plan on using them as the primary > building > material. The house will be banked into the hillside as much as > practically possible. I have a floor plan I like almost done, and > started doing calculations on the energy budget. I need a cheap way > of > insulating the walls. > > I thought about building a strawbale wall inside of the stone wall, > but > that would make the walls very thick. I thought about making a double > > wall of stone/concrete but that doubles my work. I'd rather not build > a > studwall inside the stone wall just to have a place to put insulation, > > but I'm running out of choices. > > If I do build either an inner studwall or an inner stone/concrete wall > > and fill the gap with insulation, will straw work? I like the R-value > > numbers I see for strawbales, but would want to make the straw part > thinner than a full bale. Has anybody looked a the insulating > properties > of straw that is not baled? Is there a known density for maximum > R-value? > > Are there any natural insulators that will work well between a > concrete > roof and a layer of soil? About half of my roof will be underground. > > Thanks > > -->paul > monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves > A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right > Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley > Verse II | Of love and delight > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:55:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14395 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA21706 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13909; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:43:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20235 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA24608; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04919; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709252245.SAA04919@saltmine.radix.net> To: glennm@cpts.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <41C9C00E98A7D011828700606708162B06E9B3@BRASSBALLS> (message from Glenn Minch on Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:14:58 -0700) Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 Glenn, I plan on using the slip-form method to build my house. It seems to be a great low-expertice way to build good-looking and strong walls. From what I've been able to find though the foam-core insulating boards are too expencive and to high of risk of out-gassing, though the later would be somewhat seeled and could be vented. Thanks. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 19:07:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14504 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25225 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14056; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20393 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.17] (mke-1-1.binc.net [208.142.229.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA111830; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:51:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199709252251.RAA111830@glacier.binc.net> Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:00:15 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Glenn Minch" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 There's a lister out there somewhere who uses scraps of stress skin panels in masonry walls. Sounds ingenious and resourseful. His web address is: http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr Chris Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 19:20:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14647 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28308 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14866; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20728 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA26514 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07445; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709252303.TAA07445@saltmine.radix.net> To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709252251.RAA111830@glacier.binc.net> (message from Chris & Ruth Koehn on Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:00:15 -0000) Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 Chris, > There's a lister out there somewhere who uses scraps of stress skin > panels in masonry walls. Sounds ingenious and resourseful. > > His web address is: > > http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr I looked into stress skin panels (mainly for the roof) and decided they were too expensive. I never thought about using scraps! As one who has found hundreds of uses for sink cutouts from counter material, I hang my head in shame I did not think of the window & door cutouts from SKP's. I'll have to see how close any SKP manufacturers are to the building site. Thanks for the tip. (Oh, I know that some foams don't outgas. The ones I could find that had a high enough R-value to dollar ratio at least sounded like they might.) -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 20:50:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18232 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20623 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA16924; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23073 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from davidmel (1Cust102.max6.san-francisco.ca.ms.uu.net [153.35.236.102]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20652; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <342B04A0.714D@waonline.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:41:04 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CrawfordPS@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design References: <199709221453.KAA01082@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 > > Paul: ------------------------------------------ > >Dear sirs, > > > >Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools > >offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable > >Design. > Try the San francisco institute of architecture, 555 Howard Street, SF 94105. 415 543-6121. They have a 4-year program, and one year is dedicated entirely to ecological design, with instruction from such folks as Penny Livingstone (permaculture), and Sym Van der Ryn (Ecological Design). Good Luck! Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 21:21:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18498 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26732 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17350; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA23646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:12:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23642 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:24:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 20:29:40 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: GBlist: natural building workshop To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4541805.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 This is an update on the previous posting for our Central Texas cob workshop. Ianto has added and enriched the curriculum. This residence will be the second in Central Texas. The first, The Cob Cottage at Rainbow Ranch, will be on the Green Building Tour which follows two days of the 6th Annual Green Building Conference in Austin, Texas. A Natural Building Workshop November 3 - 9, 1997 in Blanco County, Texas Ianto Evans of The Cob Cottage Company, assisted by his wife Linda Smiley and Austin's Gayle Borst, will lead this intensive, hands-on learning experience for both owner-builders and people wanting to work professionally with natural materials. Architects, designers, advanced cobbers, construction craft specialists and artisans are encouraged to attend. Topics Advanced cobbing techniques, design and structure, new developments in mixing and building, pushing the limits of cob, vaults and domes, materials evaluation, foundation options, earth floors, natural plasters, and integration of various related crafts such as metal, wood, ceramics, etc. Curriculum depends on participants' priorities. The project A small residence with sleeping loft on 14 beautiful acres in Central Texas bordering the Blanco River and bisected by a seasonal creek. Numerous oak, juniper and pecan trees, grass and wildflower meadows, and limestone outcroppings can be found. Weather likely to be most excellent. Rain possible. Fee $495 for 7 days. Includes demonstrations, site visits to related buildings, instructional materials, resource library, nutritious meals, camping sites, showers, community building and more. Limited to 23. Confirm registration with $100. Detailed letter will follow. Information Dr. Yvonne Hansen- 512-447-0459 or . Gayle Borst - 512-478-9033 or < gayle_borst@greenbuilder.com> -- Yvonne Hansen GeminIdeas@greenbuilder.com Green Building Conference 10/30-11/2/1997 http://www.greenbuilder.com/conference/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sustainable Sources - Internet Solutions with an Environmental Perspective info@greenbuilder.com BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 00:22:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA24221 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA10698 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22131; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA26441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:06:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from slic.com (winthrop.slic.com [206.25.233.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA26437 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barkeatr.slic.com (bombay07.slic.com [206.150.84.72]) by slic.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.0) with ESMTP id AAA11819; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709260402.AAA11819@slic.com> Reply-To: From: "Barkeater Design Co." To: "Paul S. Hetrick" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:58:20 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 Hi Paul Im that lister, part time lurker, who uses the stress skin panel (SSP)scraps. Our local SSP maker has lots of misorders, mistakes and just scrap all of which is not much use to anyone due to its thickness (8-12") and varied shapes. This SSP manuf is also a timber frame outfit and I think they chuckle a bit when we show up........ Slipformers, you should know, are the lowest form of mason :). I did get some prices from this fellow on new (plain)styrofoam insulation and it was quite cheap. (But not as cheap as a case of homebrew or a donation to thier demolition derby car!)Styrofoam of course, is relatively low in R value but does not produce HFCs and doesnt seem quite as nasty. There is probably a good chance there is a stress skin panel fabricator near you, thier wieght tends to force a more regional network of manuf. Check out my web page http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/, we are just finishing the stonework now. Our wall is a double stone wall in most of our house, we have got the each wall thin enough that we feel both walls are working together. We are going to do a few of our last walls with a interior wood finish. In this case we will use SSPs with plywood on the inside and just slipform the outside like normal. You will notice on our web page that our walls slope gently to the inside. This makes a wall thick enough to form it own footing at the bottom and thinner and cheaper on top were less strength is needed. It is quite gracefull too. The stonework has taken two summers, largely by myself, part time. I think If you had more walls that were only one side of stone, and a crew of 2-3 and you could build very fast. It is a nice way to build, you can still spend time with your family ect. It is very organic, as the house was changing just ahead of what was cast in stone! The walls will sit the winter unroofed. The wall sits on two inches of dow blueboard and our last thing to do before winter is to extend that insulation on both sides of the wall 3-4 feet. This will keep the ground below from freezing, and allow us to save some money this winter for the rest of the house. We have spent a little more than 4000 dollars so far, probably about as much as the closing costs and lawyers fees would be on a store bought home! I am going to build the windows this winter, and I am keeping an eye on the window thread. We have large overhangs and I feel homemade windows will be subject to less (or none) rain ect. Anyone out there know of good sources on homemade windows? Sorry for the long rant, its been a long summer talking to stones! take care Tim McCarthy Barkeater Design Build Company ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 07:04:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27673 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA22939 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA26447; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA01016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:53:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA01012 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.17.119] (pm0a19.bf.sover.net [204.71.17.119]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28386 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:55:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709260402.AAA11819@slic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:59:29 -0500 To: From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Foam insulation and blowing agents terminology Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 This stuff may not seem important, until you're trying to get an accurate, technically correct answer from someone. Your work sounds great, Tim. Now, to clear a couple of issues with the materials you're using: >Styrofoam of course, is relatively low in R value but does not produce >HFCs and doesnt seem quite as nasty. > Styrofoam(TM) is trademark of the Dow Chemical Company for their EXTRUDED Polystyrene (XPS) Insulation. This is the closed-cell stuff, also known as "blueboard", and it _DOES_ contain ozone-depleting HCFCs. It's the same as Owens Corning's pink board, which used to called Foamular(TM) from UC Industries. The "plain, white stuff" you're talking about is probably EXPANDED polystyrene (EPS), also known as "beadboard". It is blown with the hydrocarbon pentane, which does not affect the ozone layer. Now, about those initials: HCFC = hydrochlorofluorocarbon, which is less damaging to the ozone layer than CFC (= chlorofluorocarbon) by about 1/20, but still an issue. HFC = hydrofluorocarbon, which contains no chlorine, hence doesn't bother the ozone at all. Some of these are starting to replace HCFCs in refrigeration and cooling equipment, and in some spray foams and foam sealants (details in the forthcoming October issue of EBN). Sorry for being so picky, but these things get confused so often! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 08:00:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28058 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA02037 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA26923; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01585; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41444; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:46:50 -0600 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:46:50 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, TruNord@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: window warranties In-Reply-To: <970925173529_2087562858@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 Chris: If your list is tangible and practical for the common homeowner, professional contractor and ecodesigner, then I too would be interested in this contribution. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > > Friends, > > Several have commented about window and door performance and the range of > manufacturer claims and warranties. I have considered putting together a > list of "warranty things to look for".... > > Is this of interest to members of the list? Unnecessary? Should it be a > group discussion? or taken off line? > > Not wanting to abuse the spirit or focus of the lists, I would appreciate > your thoughts. > > Chris Mathis > MCSquared > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 10:33:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04185 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04253 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00305; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:19:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.eni.net (mail1.eni.net [205.214.51.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04252 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.nrdc.org (mail.nrdc.org [207.168.63.2]) by mail1.eni.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21664 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccMail by mail.nrdc.org (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00039884; Fri, 26 Sep 97 10:25:09 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:16:43 -0400 Message-ID: <00039884.@nrdc.org> From: rwatson@nrdc.org (Rob Watson) Subject: GBlist: 'Forest-friendly' building report To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: SYassa@nrdc.org (Sami Yassa) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 The Natural Resources Defense Council has written a draft report entitled: "Saving Wood, Saving Money, Saving Trees: A Handbook on Efficient Wood-use For Building Industry Professionals in California" Though the target audience is in California, we suspect that others will be interested too. NRDC would like to solicit the comments of the green building professionals who frequent this list on the technical content and utility of this report. Please contact Robert Watson at or Sami Yassa at for a copy. Thanks in advance for your interest. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 11:31:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04897 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25144 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02302; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:17:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05828 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: liverjx@nu.com Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 8525651E.005418B2 ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:18:33 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <8525651E.00532ECE.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:20:47 -0400 Subject: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 With the goal of optimally operating a "green building" once the occupants have arrived, I have a question regarding fluorescent lighting. Does anybody know how the startup ballast energy requirements of a fluorescent fixutre relate to the amount of energy saved by turning the fixture off for a period of time? Or in other words, if one is leaving their office for 1/2 hour, does it make "energy sense" to turn off the fluorescent lights or leave them on? And what is the threshold time period where it no longer makes "energy sense" to turn the lights off. I would imagine that the time period depends somewhat on whether the ballast is magnetic or electronic. If anybody has any insight into this commonly asked question, I welcome your input. Thank you. John Livermore ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 12:48:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06538 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18537 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04525; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08230 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.163.118.21] (ip-bend1-19.teleport.com [206.163.118.21]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16625 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709261639.JAA16625@mail1.teleport.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: request for info on 4-Times Square Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 09:46:07 -0000 x-sender: endura@mail.teleport.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Ed Mays To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 I just received some info from two new consulting/marketing organizations in New York city. One is called e-kol-o-ji and they sent me some flyers in a portfolio about several large projects in New York. Donald Trump is also now planning to renovate another tower in NY he recently bought with environmental enhancments. One whole floor of this new Trump building will be devoted to showcasing environmental products and technologies and leased by a new company called Eco-Smart Healthy Properties, Inc.. The 4-Times square project is being developed by the Durst family, well known in NY sky scraper office tower development circles. This new office tower is described as the "first office tower to be built in New york city in nearly a decade, features many highlights, from unique technological elements to first-ever environmental advancements." It will be a 48 story, 1.6 million square foot office building, and is the largest structure being built in the country at this time. The architects are Fox & Fowle Architects and Tishman Construction is the contractor. The Durst organization can be reached via e-mail at www.durstny.com By the way there is a large conference/trade show, The National Marketplace for the Environment in Washington D.C.(Washington Convention Center) November 18-20 in which there will be a 1750SF pavillion, "Enviro-Tech" Office Building of the 21st Century(ETOB) devoted to displaying examples of environmental building design and materials. The whole show encompasses a 150,000SF conference hall layed out by the 16 divisions of the CSI. This show is aimed at marketing to federal, state and local governments, key segments of the private sector and buyers from around the world they say. It is being organized by the same people that do the Eco Expo and The Environmental Education Group. They are reachable in Sherman Oaks, CA by phone at 818-906-2700. ************************************************************** ENDURA HARDWOODS AND WOODWORKS Fine Hardwoods and Products that are Soft on the Environment 2401 NW Marken St. Ph: 541-383-5003 Fax: 541-317-8391 Bend, OR 97701 e-mail: endura@teleport.com ************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 13:06:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06791 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23100 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05445; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:57:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.vcr.istar.ca (mail.vcr.iSTAR.ca [204.191.152.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08998 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ian [204.191.155.103] by mail.vcr.istar.ca with smtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xEdjq-0001ct-00; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:59:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970926100704.006c4a70@wimsey.com> X-Sender: igt@wimsey.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:07:04 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Ian Theaker Subject: GBlist: LA "green" buildings Cc: RHDesign@aol.com In-Reply-To: <199709260602.CAA27902@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 Hello, Rob & GB Listers, Deborah Weintraub, ex-business development officer of the Canadian LA consulate, and a member of the LA AIA Envrionment Ctte., organised a tour of "green' buildings last year, which I found out about only after the fact :-( I'd passed this along to Jorg earlier, but thought it might be useful to the List in general. Love to hear your comments. Ian Theaker, P.Eng. Center for Regenerative Studies A must-see - good luck though, with only one weekend.... They're following in the footsteps of the New Alchemists in aquaculture and water treatment; their climate responsive buildings were very comfortable last summer in 90F+ heat. If you contact them first, they may have a bed for you to stay - well worth hanging around for throughout a day, to check out solar angles, overhangs, etc. Check on status of their plans for the next phase, and how well the gardens work is done, with short-term, semester scheduled help. Rob ? is now resident manager, taking over from Steve Nawrath last year. 8th District Constituent Services Centre I think this is what was meant by "Ridgehaven Municipal Building (?)". Address is 8475 South Vermont. Concentrated on meterials selection & water conservation (seems to be a common thread thru SoCal design - *not* energy-efficiency); less impressive mechanical / climate-responsive design. Architects were Thomas Jeffries & Raymond Wright. (I haven't been there myself, but picked up some bumf.) Lehrer House (address?) Heard about this one in Arch. Record. Architect is David Hertz of Syndesis in Santa Monica; house is made of "Syndecrete", his proprietary(?) concrete with high recycled (fly-ash?) content. Again, concentrated on materials selection, but also apparently on climate-responsive - especially natural cooling/ventilation design, c/w a solar tower to induce stack effect. John Picards' House (12915 Greene Avenue, LA; (310) 821-7762) John Picard seems to be successful in promoting enviro-responsible design to big biz (primarily movie studios), and his house was deemed to be worth seeing in the AIA tour. SoCal Gas Co's. Energy Resource Center (9420 Firestone Blvd, Downey, CA; (310) 803-7400; Manager - Diane Morrison) Exhibition hall and seminar rooms, with displays of gas tech. More a display of EE & recycled material technology than a green building; mechanicals very complex to show off capability. They're proud of the fact that the building is salvaged, and their use of recycled / salvaged materials; unfortunately little daylighting, lots of electric display lighting, and few passive cooling / climate responsive features that I could see. Check out their absorption chillers, main reception desk finish of recycled glass (very nice), and their feature steel wall made from recycled guns. Sony Pictures Child Development Center (Clarington Ave, be3tween Venice & Washington Blvds. (310) 998-8550; Lora Peterson, of Bright Horizons, managers of the Center) Don't know almost anything about this one. Waste Management Inc. Biltmore Towers (Suite 1710, 500 S. Grand Ave. (213)239-6681), Gary Petersen) Again, this was included on the tour, but I don't know much else about it. Use of recycled / reclaimed materials? LA EcoVillage (contact Ian McIlvaine, Tierra Sol y Mar, (310) 392-2775) These folks are concentrating more on community economic development & local food production in deepest darkest East LA, rather than green buildings, but they've acquired an apartment building and intended to retrofit it for EE. High ambitions, little funding... sigh. >On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RHDesign@aol.com wrote: > >> >> I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested >> in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any >> ideas? >> >> Rob Harrison >> Robert Harrison Architects >> Seattle, WA >> __lyrical sustainable design__ >> >> also... >> >> Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ >> --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- --------------------- ---------------------------------- Sheltair Scientific Ltd. Ste. 2 - 3661 West Fourth Avenue Vancouver, BC V6R 1P2 fax: (604) 732-9238 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 13:46:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09370 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05376 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06542; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:36:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com ([207.205.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10082 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NfX27417; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:37:05 EDT To: liverjx@nu.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:44:11 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Message-ID: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <8525651E.00532ECE.00@nunotesmta2.nu.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,9-10,15-16,22-23,27-28,32-33,37-71 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 Your question is related to one of the great urban myths of our time. That myth being, "We use more electricity turning a light on and off than just leaving it on." This myth got started (who knows where) because when we turn on any electrical appliance we add an extra load to an electric grid. The added load is like a vacuum that invites electron activity or electricity to rush in. As you know, nature hates a vacuum, and that is precisely what the electricity does is rush in and create electric vibrations in the device we wish to use. This is called a peak inrush. The initial rush of electricity can be quite large and violent. It can blow open incandescent filaments. But it is very brief (microseconds) and is more pressure than force. After inrush a balance and a regular current flow is achieved and we see work as light or motion. If you are purchasing power from the power company your concern should be that you purchase power by the kilowatt hour ($0.10 is typical). This is a measurement of supply based on time. There are no additional charges for the peak inrush. You will realize the greatest savings when you use an electrical appliance with the lowest power requirements for the smallest period of time . If you are producing your own power with a solar, wind or water generating system then you may not care about peak inrush or how much time you use a electrical appliance as long as you don't exceed your system capacity. Regarding fluorescent lighting, as with most products the newer products tend to be more efficient than older products. You can compare the claimed efficiency by determining the product's voltage and current requirements. This should be labeled on any electrical appliance. The electronic ballast tend to be somewhat more efficient because they are not as dependent upon the peak inrush to get them started. They build up a charge to get them started. The ultimate factor is the electrical requirements of the products on the load. On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:20:47 -0400 liverjx@nu.com writes: > >With the goal of optimally operating a "green building" once the >occupants >have arrived, I have a question regarding fluorescent lighting. Does >anybody know how the startup ballast energy requirements of a >fluorescent >fixutre relate to the amount of energy saved by turning the fixture >off for >a period of time? Or in other words, if one is leaving their office >for >1/2 hour, does it make "energy sense" to turn off the fluorescent >lights or >leave them on? And what is the threshold time period where it no >longer >makes "energy sense" to turn the lights off. > >I would imagine that the time period depends somewhat on whether the >ballast is magnetic or electronic. If anybody has any insight into >this >commonly asked question, I welcome your input. Thank you. > >John Livermore > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:35:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14281 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18466 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08775; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11659 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:01 -0400 (EDT) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA06511 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nyc-ny19-19.ix.netcom.com(205.186.166.179) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006464; Fri Sep 26 13:28:06 1997 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <19979261435366334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: 4 Times Square and other green buildings X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 I just received the message from Ed Mays at Endura Hardwoods. I am the researcher for EcoSmart Healthy Properties,LLC, and I thought that if anyone is looking for information about green buildings, please contact us. We are currently renovating the entire 23rd floor of Trump's new building at 40 Wall Street, NYC. The floor will be the "office of the future" as well as a showplace for environmentally safe building products and services. We have other projects in the works, such as 'greening UNEP's offices' as well as renovating an office building in Philly into an environmental hotel. Any questions about us or our projects, please contact Robyn Heller at 212.758.1815. Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:53:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14550 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24008 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09295; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12220 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA27224; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12079; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709261847.OAA12079@saltmine.radix.net> To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: liverjx@nu.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 One more thing about modern Flourescents. I read an article somewhere not long ago that said when you consider bulb and balast life the best policy is when you turn a flourescent light on leave it on long enough to warm up to operating temps. When you turn one off, leave it off at least until it cools. This is about a minute either way. Short cycling does really hurt bulb life and has some bad effects of balasts as well. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:57:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14596 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25518 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09109; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:40:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12074 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA26877; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11535; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709261842.OAA11535@saltmine.radix.net> To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: liverjx@nu.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 > Your question is related to one of the great urban myths of our time. > That myth being, "We use more electricity turning a light on and off than > just leaving it on." Actually it's not a myth, just a bit outdated. The old-fashioned flourecent lights could use about 10 times their normal power when first started. I'm talking about the the ones that when you turned them on you could see their ends glow for a short while and then they would flicker for a while and finallt stabilize. The neon starters they used were power hogs. > This is called a peak inrush. The initial rush of electricity can be > quite large and violent. It can blow open incandescent filaments. But > it is very brief (microseconds) and is more pressure than force. After > inrush a balance and a regular current flow is achieved and we see work > as light or motion. What blows incandescents is the thermal shock on the filament. The rapid expantion from heating up can cause the britle wire to break. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 15:35:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15312 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05597 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09970; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:14:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13098 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PoY04053; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Air Exchangers/ Attic Insulation Message-ID: <19970926.150849.4567.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:54 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 Hi All- I just couldn't let more time go buy without sending out a very big thank you for all the responses I received. I haven't been able to get on my computer till today, very briefly- due to the fact that I am trying to re-cooperate from a health situation. I will answer as much of these wonderful replies, as I can when I am better The responses have been so helpful. Once again, your help has been so appreciated. Until I'm a bit better- Thanks- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 17:46:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16860 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12327 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13830; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA16786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16782 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-21-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.21]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01137 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: <342C2AA5.3922@together.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:35:33 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 John: When adjusting the time delay period for office lighting occupancy sensors, common practice in the industry today is to use a 5 to 7 minute delay before turning the fixtures off. This is what most manufacturer field sales reps will advise. I have specified these values with good results and no ""apparant"" premature equipment failures. I'm speaking of the electranic ballasts, T-8 florescent fixtures.... typical modern high efficiency lamps. Once I questioned a manufacturer about the basis of the delay recomendations. They cited testing and studies, which I can no longer recall, from industry trade accociations whose names were well known. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 09:25:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28289 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07411 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23687; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:16:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27982 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm1a11.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.141]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17989 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:18:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 Regarding the energy impacts of turning fluorescents on and off, there was some great dialog on the Greenbuilding list a long time ago about this issue. As I recall, someone provided highly detailed mathematical analysis demonstrating that the extra energy consumed during start-up would be repaid extremely quickly through off-time, but that there were some other considerations as well that slightly lengthened the appropriate off-time. This doesn't appear to be one of the threads that we compiled and archive on our Web site (http://www.ebuild.com), but as far as I know the entire discussion is archived on the CREST Web site--but may take more time to find. It's worth digging up. By the way, I've just finished an article on the issue of mercury in fluorescent lamps and PCBs in pre-1979 fluorescent ballasts. That will be in the October issue of Environmental Building News. The bottom line is that during relamping, the importance of properly disposing of both lamps and PCB ballasts is tremendous. This costs money--about 40 cents per 4-foot lamp and a few dollars per ballast, but it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL. The cost of this disposal (recycling) should be factored into the cost of relamping. (Incidentally, I remain highly supportive of fluorescent lighting, despite the toxics concerns--we just need to deal with them properly at the end of the life cycle.) Also, I recommend choosing Phillips lamps. Their new ALTO line (which should account for 80% of all their fluorescents by year-end) has mercury levels that are about one-fifth of the industry average. Also, of the big-three lamps manufacturers--General Electric, Osram Sylvania, and Phillips--only Phillips opposes a regulation being considered by EPA to "conditionally exempt" fluorescent lamps from hazardous waste disposal regulations. That conditional exemption would be very bad. I rarely make such a strong product recommendation. -Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 13:15:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06869 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23058 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25699; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:05:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01069 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ba015003 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:07:03 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:08:52 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Positherm building system X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <20070304600699@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 Has anyone heard of a product called Positherm Building Systems? It's a panelized product for walls and roofs. It's made of 60% recycled agriculture products?? Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 14:27:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07239 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09668 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26649; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02110 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.163.118.25] (ip-bend1-23.teleport.com [206.163.118.25]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12070 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709271819.LAA12070@mail1.teleport.com> Subject: GBlist: Economic viability of environmentally responsible building Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 11:26:57 -0000 x-sender: endura@mail.teleport.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Ed Mays To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA07239 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 I thought the following article might be of interest as it gives a good short summary explanation of the possible positive economic benefits of environmentally responsible building which would apply to residential as well as commercial building. The author of this July 1997 article from New York Construction News, Barry Dimson, is president of EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC.. This company is renovating the whole 23rd floor(23,000SF) of 40 Wall Street(a 72 story landmark building in lower Manhattan)as a hi tech environmental showcase of healthy and environmentally responsible office building techniques and materials. If you have further questions they can be reached at 40 Wall Street, New York, NY 10005, ph: 212.430.4000, fax: 212.430.4029, e-mail: healthyp@ix.netcom.com. "A lot of owners and developers fear that an environmentally responsible building might cost them a great deal more than a conventional building perhaps up to 10 percent more. They're wary of this up-front cost even though they know that they'll recoup that differential in less than five years through energy savings. But I believe that up-front costs are comparable. So, those energy savings, as well as other factors discussed below, are pure profit for as long as the building stands. Twenty percent of the cost of a typical office building or apartment house will be that of acquiring the land. About 55 percent is the "hard" cost of construction, and another 25 percent goes to "soft" costs such as carrying charges and design fees. Now, if you assume that at least half of the hard cost (i.e., 27.5 percent of the total cost) goes for excavation, foundations and superstructure, then you're left with only another 27.5 percent going into the building's "skin:' mechanical equipment and other building materials. Therefore, even if the systems and material cost 10 percent more up front, that only translates to a premium of 2.75 percent over the total cost! Contrast this with the potential savings in "soft" costs. Typically, more than 50 percent of the total soft costs comes from carrying the building while it's being rented Fifty percent of the 25 percent of the total outlay that soft costs £~ resent comes to 12.5 percent of the total cost. But suppose the building rents up six months faster than expected because it's environmentally responsible! In that case, savings in soft costs will immediately more than exceed any increase in hard costs. We're convinced that environmentally responsible buildings will not only rent up faster, but will rent for a higher amount if the benefits are properly marketed to tenants. The first obvious savings to a tenant is in energy consumption, which can be cut in half through the use of energy efficient technology. Electricity usually costs from $2 to $3 per square foot - but with modern technology, we can cut that to $1.50 or even as low as a dollar! Tenants will realize even greater savings through the increased productivity of their work forces. In the New York City area the average employee receives about $40,000 per year, including all benefits. That same employee occupies approximately 200 square feet of space, so the cost of the employee is approximately $200 per square foot). If better air quality and better lighting increase that worker's productivity by 10 percent that translates to again of $20per square foot in saved labor cost to the employer. Recent studies of environmentally responsible buildings show productivity increases of 15 percent, as well as reductions in absenteeism and health claims, so a 10 percent productivity increase is a reasonable assumption. It makes sense for tenants to pay $2 to $5 more per square foot in rent to achieve such efficiencies. Here you have the basic economic principles of environmentally responsible buildings. Certainly, tenants must be educated in order to appreciate the savings, and owners and developers must be educated to see that the total project cost is not always much higher.... Owners, developers and tenants will inevitably realize significant economic benefits from environmentally responsible buildings; what's more, these buildings will benefit their occupants' health and quality of life, as well as the environment as a whole." ************************************************************** ENDURA HARDWOODS AND WOODWORKS Fine Hardwoods and Products that are Soft on the Environment 2401 NW Marken St. Ph: 541-383-5003 Fax: 541-317-8391 Bend, OR 97701 e-mail: endura@teleport.com ************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 11:45:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13053 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20891 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22359; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:36:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26065; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.143.204] (dd26-204.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.143.204]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA09171; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199709281538.IAA09171@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Upcoming Conferences To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 More Conferences of Note: 28 Sept. 1997 ........................................................................... 1. EEBA'97 Denver, November 5-8, 1997 http://www.eeba.org/confinfo97.htm (being updated!) 2. FREE'97 Indianapolis, IN November 1997 http://www.hers-council.org/free-97/free97-update.htm And, for additional energy and "green" events info, try http://www.eeba.org/events.htm ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 11:52:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13107 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22629 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22464; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:38:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26143 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:38:45 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts15l10.pathcom.com (ts15l10.pathcom.com [209.112.17.61]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25853 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709281541.LAA25853@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:37:31 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Recycling of Construction material Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 Greenbuilders: The following is an article that I think you all should read. http://www.salonmagazine.com/sept97/news/newsreal.html What is the situation with your own recycling places? Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 12:20:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13384 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29028 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25635; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:10:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28155 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA03330; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: <342E80BA.EA1EAEB4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:07:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: GBlist slip form walls X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 There was some recent discussion on the use of foam as the insul. for a masonry sandwich. There was also some discussion about a month or so ago where I mentioned that we have used EPS foam for both slip form rock walls and concrete walls. EPS foam (used by itself) is quite inexpensive. It is expanded with pentane which dissipates very rapidly from the time of manuf. - at the point of installation it generally can be considered inert. The plastic itself (a benzene polymer) is considered stable within normal temperature ranges. I have never been entirely comfortable with using plastic especially chlorinated plastics but given the need to insulate and provide some barrier for moisture transmission and do this at a reasonable cost - this product works. My only concern is with proper application as water diffusing through the conc. can run on the surface and collect in openings or breaks in the masonry. One alternatives that I have not worked with but given time would like to incorporate are: Mineralwool in higher densities. Roxul, Fibrex and probably other companies manufacture high density mineral wool boards in varying thickness (up to 6"?). Some are manuf. as a insulating drainboard, others as a high thermal resist. for industrial applications. Rvalues are approx. 4/inch and the material would be free draining which could be an advantage. Urea formaldehyde is used as a binder (approx.2% content) the fibres are larger and coarser than the equiv. glass products which should reduce risk in exposure. Use of a mineral wool board would not provide any moisture barrier but I'm not sure that this is a problem and might be an asset as the wall material itself (depending on cement content and curing) has a degree of moisture resistance, is not a material that will suffer from periodic high contents of moisture (care in detailing as moisture can be transferred to other materials). Air and moisture filtration and diffusion characteristics of the wall are calculable and might (should/could) be used to some benefit. Perhaps the most interesting (for my sensibility) alternative to investigate for slip form walls is the insulating potential of the concrete binding mix itself. As long as sufficient strength or stiffness remains to bind the rock material a large number of materials that have the potential to create air pockets or contain air (chopped straw, etc.) can be used. Enough research on mixes of this sort have been done to adequately predict insulation values to be able to make a reasonable performance design that would be acceptable for most code requirements. The wall would be thick and would have to probably incorporate some steel (or bamboo) for additional reinf. stiffness. but it would be lighter, would have a reduced cement content, would be free of plastics and would have an appealing simplicity of design in the materials used. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 08:06:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03626 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06860 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA24341; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:54:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from gatekeeper.rigo.nl (gatekeeper.rigo.nl [193.78.50.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA19655 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gatekeeper.rigo.nl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10056; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:50:16 +0100 Received: from apollo(89.0.0.12) by gatekeeper via smap (V1.3) id sma010050; Mon Sep 29 10:49:58 1997 Received: from flater (crimson) by apollo.rigo.nl (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA07410; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:01:35 --100 Message-Id: <9709290901.AA07410@apollo.rigo.nl> From: "Miranda van Tilburg" To: Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:56:59 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 Members of Greenbuilding, The Novem -Dutch knowledge centre for energy and the environment- is a non-profit organization which is interested in reducing energy consumption in The Netherlands. A mean to accomplish this goal is to stimulate the use of new innovative technologies. Therefore, the Novem has asked us to investigate new energy efficient technologies for household appliances world-wide. Eventually the Novem wants to introduce a few outstanding technologies in The Netherlands. As you are all experts in this field, we would like to know whether you are aware of emerging technologies that are not world-wide promoted to consumers today (perhaps only in your own country) and which have been commercialized or are likely to be commercialized in about 10 years. We would greatly appreciate any information you can give us on this subject. We are especially interested in: (1) information on new energy efficient technologies for household appliances (2) research institutes or manufacturers in and outside your country who developed energy efficient technologies or might be developing new technologies, and (3) institutes, agencies, associations aimed at energy efficiency, renewable or sustainable energy, or innovative technologies especially outside Northern America. Any name, address, publication etc. is welcome. If you would like more information on the project, please contact us. Your help is greatly appreciated! Yours Sincerely Miranda Van Tilburg, MA RIGO research en advies P.O. Box 2085 1000 CV Amsterdam The Netherlands tel: +3120 522 1190 / 1111 fax: +3120 6276840 e-mail: miranda@rigo.nl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 14:41:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03504 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03298 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08669; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout24.mail.aol.com (emout24.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03458 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: DSaum@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout24.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA25494; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929101609_1563821920@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: alex@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 In a message dated 97-09-27 09:20:43 EDT, alex@ebuild.com writes: > Regarding the energy impacts of turning fluorescents on and off, there was > some great dialog on the Greenbuilding list a long time ago about this > issue. Some of us packrats actually save this stuff. Enjoy. ---dave ----fwd Subj: GBlist: Fluorescent lights - to switch off or not? That is the question Date: 97-05-16 21:02:12 EDT From: hlevin@cruzio.com (Hal Levin) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org To: greenbuilding@crest.org BGlisters: I forwarded the question about switching off fluorescent lights to my "go-to" guy on illumination, lighting guru Steve Selkowitz at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, UC Berkeley. He sent me the following message. Some of the terminology and utility rates are a bit strange because the response comes from New Zealand. The answer appears to be: Yes, switch 'em off when they will be off for more than 20 minutes, even at extremely low energy unit cost.. Hal Levin Hal, The simple answer is "turn off the lights"- just so happens there was a recent more detailed discussion of this on a bulletin board- here it is. Hope all is well. Steve --------- From: Lighting@garnet.nist.gov (5/15/97) To: Lighting@garnet.nist.gov RE>Effect of short cycling on fluorescent l > I concurr with the practical effects of frequent switching set out in >Ken Berg's posting however this does raise a question to which I have >previously failed to find an authoritative answer: > >The object of occupancy switching is given as "energy saving" The >question raised by this thread is that does it provide an economic saving >as well? I don't think that we have fully answered the first point. I >have been unable to find good figures for the energy required to >manufacture any kind of lamp. This figure would include the energy >required to refine or recycle base materials as well as that used in the >manufacture of the specific lamp, from work I have seen relating to >automobiles where it has been shown that 25 percent of all the energy >they consume during their life is that taken to manufacture them, I am >suspicios that , particularly "energy saving" lamps may not be as >effective as they seem taking production energy into account, and that is >before we start looking at other environmental impacts of materials used >such as mercury. > [snip] > I hope the following answers some questions about cost savings from turning off lights. Someone at the Minnesota Dept of health has put together a good article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps - the numbers showed fluoresent lamps providing net mercury benefit - burning coal releases mercury, but the numbers were not as optimistic for the benefits of fluorescent lamps as the IAEEL article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps. The following is a long winded discussion of the myths surrounding switching off fluorescent lamps. Fluorescent Lighting - Should I turn the lights off? There have been two very resilient energy myths that have dissuaded people from turning off fluorescent lamps. These myths are hard to dispel because inside each myth is a kernel of fact. Inrush myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lights because the inrush energy when I turn the lights on is more than the energy I saved by turning them off. Inrush fact: When fluorescent fixtures are turned on there is a MOMENTARY inrush of current. This inrush is 5 times greater than normal operating current for magnetic ballasts and can be as high as 40 times greater than normal operating current for electronic ballasts. This inrush lasts for 1/10th of a second or less. Thus the energy content of the inrush event is comparable 5 seconds or less of normal operation. Thus, turning off the lights for more than 5 seconds will save more energy than leaving them on even when including the inrush current. Lamp life myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lamps at all because turning them on and off reduces the lamp life and I would rather replace the lamps less often. Lamp life fact: Each time the lamp is started some of the emissive material on the electrodes is eroded. This does reduce the BURNING HOURS of the lamp. The burning hours are how many hours of OPERATION the lamps will last. By turning lamps off at night, the fraction of operating hours per year can be reduced by much more than the reduction in the lamp life in terms of burning hours. Thus turning lamps off at night will make the lamps last longer (longer period between lamp replacement). In "Economics of Switching Fluorescent Lamps" IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications Vol 24, No 3, May/June 1988, Carriere & Rea provide a function f(u), that describes the lamp life in burning hours relative the rated lamp life under that standard burning cycle of 3 hours lamp operation per start. Actual Lamp Life = Rated Lamp Life x f(u) where, f(u) = 1.71 (1-exp[-(u/3.89)^0.505]) u = burning cycle, hours of operation per start A continuously burning lamp has a large value of u and the exponential term goes to 0, thus f(u) = 1.71 and the continuously burning lamp has an average life 171% of the rated life. In the US, linear fluorescent lamps are rated for 20,000 hours on a magnetic ballast. Thus a continuously burning lamp would be expected to last 34,200 burning hours. The same lamp operated on a 3 hour burning cycle (3 hours on, and indeterminate time off, another 3 hours on etc) will last 20,000 BURNING hours i.e. f(u) = 1.0. Since there are 3 hours of burning time per switching on operation, the lamp will be switched on (20,000 operating hr per lamp)/ (3 operating hr per start) = 6,666 starts per lamp. On average from continuous operation to 3 burning hours per start, there is a loss of 2.13 hours of burning lamp life per switching operation. [34,200 - 20,000] burning hours / 6,666 starts = 2.13 burning hours reduction per start. If, ON AVERAGE, the lamps are off longer than 2.13 hours, the mean time between failure for the switched lamps is longer than the continuously burning lamps. Thus the switched lamps will not be changed as frequently as the continuously burning lamps. If, ON AVERAGE, when lamps are switched off it is for less than 2.13 hours, the continuously burning lamps will last longer - they will not be changed as frequently as the switched lamps. Switching off lamps saves energy and saves on ones electrical bill, thus the break even point for turning off lamps is somewhat less than having the lamps off for 2.13 hours. In general, switching off lamps saves energy not demand. Assuming an energy cost of $0.03/kWh, switching off a 34 W lamp (36 W with ballast losses) saves $0.00108/lamp-hr. 36 Watts x 0.001 kW/Watt x $0.03/kWh = $0.00108/lamp-hr If y, is the average number of hours the lamp is off per 3 hour operating cycle, the annual hours per year the lamps are off, HO, is: HO = (y)(8760)/(3+y) The Annual Electrical Savings, AES, from switching the lamp off is: AES = [(y)(8760)/(3+y)]( $0.00108/lamp-hr) Assumptions for replacement costs for fluorescent lamps: Lamp Cost = $2.00/lamp Disposal Cost = $0.60/lamp (recycling) Labour Cost = $4.00/lamp Total Replacement Cost = $6.60/lamp Annual Burning Hours, ABH, per year for lamp with 3 hours on and y hours off per cycle is: ABH = (3)/(3+y)(8,760) Given that the burning hours for a lamp with a 3 hr burning cycle is 20,000 hours and the burning hours for a lamp that is continuously burning is 34,200 hours, and given the cost of replacing a lamp is $6.60/lamp, the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC, of switching lamps is given by: ALC = {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60 If y = 2.13 hours, Add. Annual Lamp Costs = 0 If y < 2.13 hours then additional lamp costs are positive. There are more lamps to replace per year if the lights are off, on average, less than 2.13 hours. The Overall Cost Savings, OCS, of switching lamps off is simply the Annual Electrical Savings, AES, net the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC. OCS = AES - ALC For the three hour operating cycle with y hours off between burning cycles, the Overall Cost Savings, OCS are: OCS = {[(y)(8760)/(3+y)]($0.00108/lamp-hr)} - {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60} The break even point where the additional energy savings just pays for the additional lamp replacements is found by setting OCS to zero and solving for y. In this case y = 0.323 hr or 19 minutes. Thus if the lights are turned off for longer than 19 minutes, there is a net savings to turning the lights off. To summarise: Turning fluorescent lights off: 1. Inrush energy when turning fluorescent fixtures on is equivalent to 5 seconds or less of normal operating energy. 2. If lamps are turned off on average longer than 2 hours, they will last longer than not turning them off. 3. Using conservative values of 3 cents/kWh and $6.60/lamp for lamp replacement costs, money is saved by turning lamps off longer than 20 minutes. *********************************************************** Energy Group Limited DUNEDIN (Head Office) 14a Wickliffe Street, PO Box 738, Dunedin, New Zealand Tel: 64-3-479 0148 Fax: 64-3-479 0759 Email: eglstaff@earthlight.co.nz URL: http://www.earthlight.co.nz/business/egl/index.htm WELLINGTON Ground Floor, 1 The Terrace, PO Box 2584, Wellington, New Zealand Tel: 64-4-472 3353 Fax: 64-4-472 3352 Email: egl-iel@actrix.gen.nz <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hal Levin Hal Levin & Associates 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060-9748 408.425.3946 fax 408.426.6522 -----------end fwd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 14:48:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03613 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05076 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08651; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03448 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:36 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA05533 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929143019_-1628919854@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #402 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 >>Also, of the big-three lamps manufacturers--General Electric, Osram Sylvania, and Phillips--only Phillips opposes a regulation being considered by EPA to "conditionally exempt" fluorescent lamps from hazardous waste disposal regulations. That conditional exemption would be very bad. I rarely make such a strong product recommendation.<< I'd be interested in hearing more about this proposed reg, and it's source. Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 19:15:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08903 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18841 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17137; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11658 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust118.max20.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.9.246]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08585 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343032AC.50AC876D@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:58:53 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuildings Subject: GBlist: 4 Times Square Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Last Sunday's New York Times Real Estate Section included an article, "Energy Deregulation: Lower Costs, More Confusion," which briefly mentions 4 Times Square's intention to use chiller/heaters and fuel cells for a portion of their electricity needs. I'm not sure the article is worth chasing after unless you have easy access to the Times. The discussion of retail deregulation is not very detailed compared to what most of us have read. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 00:36:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15202 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03494 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24526; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20294 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:27:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout33.mail.aol.com (emout33.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20290 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:27:23 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout33.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA24436 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929233816_-1798902641@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window solar gains Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 We often hear of the net solar gain of south facing windows. My question is: Under what conditions is this referenced? Above what (overall) R-value and air leakage standard must the window be? Are there good data for cloudy areas such as we have here in Ithaca? Would a cloudy winter nullify the value of a lot of south glass? Is the data assuming that there is enough thermo mass to absorb the incoming heat? There can be days in winter in well insulated homes where windows need to be opened to dump heat otherwise. On another note, having the combination of concrete radiant floors with a lot of south facing glass seems like a poor combination here in the common house as it is difficult for the heating floor to respond quickly to the sudden input of solar gain when the clouds suddenly appear. Mind you if you do have a lot of cloudy weather, having the extra glass helps to input a few more photons into your starving eyeballs. hoping someone has an answer or two, Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 02:47:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA16984 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27148 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26856; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA22668 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA22664 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:09 -0400 (EDT) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA11467 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970930024045_1664604972@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: more flourescent questions... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 Following up on an earlier posting about turning off flourescent bulbs... Anybody have any hard evidence about using IR occupancy sensors in areas of high frequency - short stay traffic like bathrooms. An old electrician friend says that anything over 3 on/off cycles a day shortens the life of the flourescent bulb by up to half. The PG+E energy lab in SF disagrees, but can't say how many on/off cycles is too many. Any experience? Thanks, Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties Coeur d' Alene, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 03:17:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17343 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA01605 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27136; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA22966 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:08:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from nefeli.forthnet.gr (nefeli.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA22962 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rho.forthnet.gr (ppp23.rho.forthnet.gr [193.92.102.218]) by nefeli.forthnet.gr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09002; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:11:15 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3430B4BC.4B588D23@rho.forthnet.gr> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:13:49 +0200 From: Costas Vrouchos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: more flourescent questions... References: <970930024045_1664604972@emout11.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 Dear Chris. The following might be what you are looking for. It is copied from another mailing list about lighting. If you are interested about this mailing list I can forward you the subscription details. Costas Vrouchos Electrical Engineer - Energy Management Consultant Rhodes - GREECE " I hope the following answers some questions about cost savings from turning off lights. Someone at the Minnesota Dept of health has put together a good article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps - the numbers showed fluoresent lamps providing net mercury benefit - burning coal releases mercury, but the numbers were not as optimistic for the benefits of fluorescent lamps as the IAEEL article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps. The following is a long winded discussion of the myths surrounding switching off fluorescent lamps. Fluorescent Lighting - Should I turn the lights off? There have been two very resilient energy myths that have dissuaded people from turning off fluorescent lamps. These myths are hard to dispel because inside each myth is a kernel of fact. Inrush myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lights because the inrush energy when I turn the lights on is more than the energy I saved by turning them off. Inrush fact: When fluorescent fixtures are turned on there is a MOMENTARY inrush of current. This inrush is 5 times greater than normal operating current for magnetic ballasts and can be as high as 40 times greater than normal operating current for electronic ballasts. This inrush lasts for 1/10th of a second or less. Thus the energy content of the inrush event is comparable 5 seconds or less of normal operation. Thus, turning off the lights for more than 5 seconds will save more energy than leaving them on even when including the inrush current. Lamp life myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lamps at all because turning them on and off reduces the lamp life and I would rather replace the lamps less often. Lamp life fact: Each time the lamp is started some of the emissive material on the electrodes is eroded. This does reduce the BURNING HOURS of the lamp. The burning hours are how many hours of OPERATION the lamps will last. By turning lamps off at night, the fraction of operating hours per year can be reduced by much more than the reduction in the lamp life in terms of burning hours. Thus turning lamps off at night will make the lamps last longer (longer period between lamp replacement). In "Economics of Switching Fluorescent Lamps" IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications Vol 24, No 3, May/June 1988, Carriere & Rea provide a function f(u), that describes the lamp life in burning hours relative the rated lamp life under that standard burning cycle of 3 hours lamp operation per start. Actual Lamp Life = Rated Lamp Life x f(u) where, f(u) = 1.71 (1-exp[-(u/3.89)^0.505]) u = burning cycle, hours of operation per start A continuously burning lamp has a large value of u and the exponential term goes to 0, thus f(u) = 1.71 and the continuously burning lamp has an average life 171% of the rated life. In the US, linear fluorescent lamps are rated for 20,000 hours on a magnetic ballast. Thus a continuously burning lamp would be expected to last 34,200 burning hours. The same lamp operated on a 3 hour burning cycle (3 hours on, and indeterminate time off, another 3 hours on etc) will last 20,000 BURNING hours i.e. f(u) = 1.0. Since there are 3 hours of burning time per switching on operation, the lamp will be switched on (20,000 operating hr per lamp)/ (3 operating hr per start) = 6,666 starts per lamp. On average from continuous operation to 3 burning hours per start, there is a loss of 2.13 hours of burning lamp life per switching operation. [34,200 - 20,000] burning hours / 6,666 starts = 2.13 burning hours reduction per start. If, ON AVERAGE, the lamps are off longer than 2.13 hours, the mean time between failure for the switched lamps is longer than the continuously burning lamps. Thus the switched lamps will not be changed as frequently as the continuously burning lamps. If, ON AVERAGE, when lamps are switched off it is for less than 2.13 hours, the continuously burning lamps will last longer - they will not be changed as frequently as the switched lamps. Switching off lamps saves energy and saves on ones electrical bill, thus the break even point for turning off lamps is somewhat less than having the lamps off for 2.13 hours. In general, switching off lamps saves energy not demand. Assuming an energy cost of $0.03/kWh, switching off a 34 W lamp (36 W with ballast losses) saves $0.00108/lamp-hr. 36 Watts x 0.001 kW/Watt x $0.03/kWh = $0.00108/lamp-hr If y, is the average number of hours the lamp is off per 3 hour operating cycle, the annual hours per year the lamps are off, HO, is: HO = (y)(8760)/(3+y) The Annual Electrical Savings, AES, from switching the lamp off is: AES = [(y)(8760)/(3+y)]( $0.00108/lamp-hr) Assumptions for replacement costs for fluorescent lamps: Lamp Cost = $2.00/lamp Disposal Cost = $0.60/lamp (recycling) Labour Cost = $4.00/lamp Total Replacement Cost = $6.60/lamp Annual Burning Hours, ABH, per year for lamp with 3 hours on and y hours off per cycle is: ABH = (3)/(3+y)(8,760) Given that the burning hours for a lamp with a 3 hr burning cycle is 20,000 hours and the burning hours for a lamp that is continuously burning is 34,200 hours, and given the cost of replacing a lamp is $6.60/lamp, the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC, of switching lamps is given by: ALC = {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60 If y = 2.13 hours, Add. Annual Lamp Costs = 0 If y < 2.13 hours then additional lamp costs are positive. There are more lamps to replace per year if the lights are off, on average, less than 2.13 hours. The Overall Cost Savings, OCS, of switching lamps off is simply the Annual Electrical Savings, AES, net the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC. OCS = AES - ALC For the three hour operating cycle with y hours off between burning cycles, the Overall Cost Savings, OCS are: OCS = {[(y)(8760)/(3+y)]($0.00108/lamp-hr)} - {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60} The break even point where the additional energy savings just pays for the additional lamp replacements is found by setting OCS to zero and solving for y. In this case y = 0.323 hr or 19 minutes. Thus if the lights are turned off for longer than 19 minutes, there is a net savings to turning the lights off. To summarise: Turning fluorescent lights off: 1. Inrush energy when turning fluorescent fixtures on is equivalent to 5 seconds or less of normal operating energy. 2. If lamps are turned off on average longer than 2 hours, they will last longer than not turning them off. 3. Using conservative values of 3 cents/kWh and $6.60/lamp for lamp replacement costs, money is saved by turning lamps off longer than 20 minutes. *********************************************************** Energy Group Limited DUNEDIN (Head Office) 14a Wickliffe Street, PO Box 738, Dunedin, New Zealand Tel: 64-3-479 0148 Fax: 64-3-479 0759 Email: eglstaff@earthlight.co.nz URL: http://www.earthlight.co.nz/business/egl/index.htm WELLINGTON Ground Floor, 1 The Terrace, PO Box 2584, Wellington, New Zealand Tel: 64-4-472 3353 Fax: 64-4-472 3352 Email: egl-iel@actrix.gen.nz " ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 12:46:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29724 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19347 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09692; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:35:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02505 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts9p10.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA05797; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:37:49 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970930164003.006c6ad0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:40:03 -0500 To: RodLambert@aol.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: window solar gains and such Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 Rod, I think Chris Mathias is the resident window guru; when I had a million window related questions he highly recommended the recently published book by John Carmody et al. Here in Kansas we don't have a lack of sunshine problem thank goodness (and to think we talked about living in the northwest) however I think solar gain is even more of a problem from west facing windows than from south. I too need to figure out the proper thermal mass/glazing ratio for our latitude. Am hoping the Carmody book will tell all. The window stickers now should have a number that refers to solar gain/shading coefficient; I believe THAT is the number you want to pay attention to when worrying about the heat build up, not the R-value. Finally I think you might want to have a thermostatically controlled fan to let out hot air rather than have to rely on or think about actually opening a window in the winter (or to pull it into a storage area to be released once the temperature drops). It sounds like the Wilmar Windows you have are double hungs too; I've always been told that casements are a better choice for air infiltration. Wonder if Wilmar has stickers comparable to those required here? Best, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 14:54:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03489 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23338 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12607; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:43:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06807 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA04107 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970930144526_1890502007@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Northwest EcoBuilding Guild Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 Darrin Thorton wrote... >>Wondering about that Eco building Times paper, is it monthly, weekly.... How could I get a sample and/or a subscription?<< Thought that others might be interested in knowing about us as well... The _EcoBuilding Times_ is a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. Currently the EBT is published every six months or so. We publish articles about issues and techniques that are relevant and applicable to green building in the Northwest, primarily news about and articles by members of the Guild. The Northwest EcoBuilding Guild is a five-year-old association of contractors, design professionals, tradespeople, manufacturers, suppliers and homeowners interested in sustainable construction and design. Our members include regionally recognized leaders in their fields as well as interested beginners. There are about 250 members in five chapters--Seattle, Spokane, Olympia, Portland and Eugene, as well as smaller groups in Bellingham and Port Townsend, and on Whidbey Island. Guild members hold local chapter meetings, organize and support workshops (such as the upcoming Sustainable Building Northwest conference -- e-mail < obrien@halcyon.com > ), publish the _EcoBuilding Times_ and the Guild _Green Pages_--a directory of members and their enviornmentally friendly products and services. The Guild's mission is to promote building practices that protect human health, encourage sustainable use of energy and resources, and foster long-term regional economic vitality. The Guild is a registered 501-c3 non-profit organization, supported by grants (last year from the WA State Department of Ecology and City of Seattle Solid Waste), membership dollars and advertising revenue. Membership in the Guild is $45/year, and includes... * a subscription to the _EcoBuilding Times_ (at this stage, one or two issues) * a copy of the annual Green Pages * company listing in the Green Pages * discount on events and advertising in publications * chapter support Student membership is $20. To join, send a check to Northwest EcoBuilding Guild 217 Ninth Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109 or call the Guild office at 206.622-8350 and request a membership and advertising package. Visit the Guild's website at http://www.az.com/~cwebb/ebg.html Rob Harrison, Editor _EcoBuilding Times_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 16:21:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05091 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17354 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14938; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:11:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09422 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16821; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:22:10 -0700 Message-Id: <34315DA4.38A@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:14:28 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , 102414.3425@compuserve.com, amkhem@dante.lbl.gov, TLOCKE@ns.net, PEG@PROCTORENG.COM, ll Spohn , sebhem@dante.lbl.gov, apte@diana.lbl.gov Subject: GBlist: HERS WKSHOP 10/2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 FYI & Comment, the Calif. Energy Commission (CEC) is holding a public workshop to take comments on their proposed Home Energy Rating System regulations that are based on Title 24 bldg. stds. As far as I know, the draft regs do not include actual field performance testing (including combustion safety testing) of homes. The meeting announcement is at: http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/notices/97-09-18_notice.html This is a continuation of a previous workshop; the previous notice and how to get the draft regs are at: http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/notices/97-08-21_hers.html. They could probably use comments from experienced practitioners re: real world performnace of homes. Please let other interested parties know about the workshop. TIA, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 23:39:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09451 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27365; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA23445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:30:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23441 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw003098.gte.net [207.175.3.98]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id WAA03815 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:32:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3431C46C.4C69@gte.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:33:00 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Zero Waste Declarations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 Greetings, I'm trying to get a sense of which companies and communities have explicitely declared a zero waste goal for themselves. Interface and Xerox are two that jump to mind. Once I've got some leads, I'll do follow-up research and try to get some publications interested in covering best practices. Even the leaders need to set an ever higher bar for themselves. Thanks for any leads or suggestions you can provide. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 09:10:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26419 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA17963 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07325; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:56:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01088 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40618; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:57:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:57:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Cindy/Mike Shea Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zero Waste Declarations In-Reply-To: <3431C46C.4C69@gte.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 Cindy: In our recent work on recofitting a 50 story office tower, we came across the publication called: "Working Your Way to a Green Office" by Environment Canada that mentions examples of waste reduction (policies) by many companies and governments.If interested, I can get a phone #. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm trying to get a sense of which companies and communities have explicitely declared a > zero waste goal for themselves. Interface and Xerox are two that jump to mind. Once > I've got some leads, I'll do follow-up research and try to get some publications > interested in covering best practices. Even the leaders need to set an ever higher bar > for themselves. > > Thanks for any leads or suggestions you can provide. > > Cindy Pollock Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 11:27:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28972 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23326 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09817; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:03:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05913 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LjO03840; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 11:03:44 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: windows Message-ID: <19971001.094649.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8,10,13-15,18-24 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 11:03:44 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 Hi, Sorry to "beat a dead horse" but most of the discussions recently on windows have related to problems of cold climate or temperat climate regions. Here in S. Florida were are "tropical" : no cold or even much cool - mostly just hot and hotter and very humid. I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, argon filled vs reflective coating vs. ..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning and the extreme humidity I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. Thanks for help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 14:55:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06934 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25411 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16120; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:38:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13467 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58724; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:38:23 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:38:22 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Abby Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Working Your Way to a Green Office" In-Reply-To: <34325A8E.AC7@ibm.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 Abby et al: The above (ISBN #0-662-19629-5) can be ordered from Environment Canada (819) 997-2800. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Abby wrote: > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Jorg: I would like to get a copy. Could you please post phone number > or address? > thanks, Abby > laraby@ibm.net > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 16:13:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08526 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20853 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18098; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:54:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16004 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts15p03.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA20684; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:56:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971001195841.006dce7c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 The following interesting information just received from Green Clips: I would be interested in comments about the first, about Ecolonia and internal warm walls and natural ventilation systems. Specifically anyone know where I can get more information about these innovative building techniques? The article about textiles is noteworthy too. If most of you get this freebie, I am sorry for the repea; but this particular 'issue' has more fodder than most. Sacie Lambertson REPORT FROM ECOLONIA Six years after construction began on Ecolonia, a project of 100 demonstration houses with nine different styles and architects in the Dutch town of Alphen aan de Rijn, most Dutch building contractors are applying only its more profitable ecological features. Fast money-making features like non-toxic chalk-composite structural internal building blocks, solar boilers and roof-mounted heaters, internal warm walls, and natural ventilation systems have quickly become marketplace items. But other features like the vegetation-covered roofs of ecological architect Renz Pijnenborgh cost more than a traditional tile roof and gave no added insulation, concluded a residents' assessment report published by the semi-governmental agency Novem. Still, most residents are happy with many of the project's ecological aspects, particularly the quality of the indoor air that's passed over waterfalls and through plants for filtering. Residents with air heating dislike it, preferring well-placed radiator elements - or Pijnenborgh's heated wall - coupled to a high-efficiency gas boiler with a solar addition. Tenants say that water-based paints have lost their brightness and need improvement. Now convinced it's safe for boaters and paddlers, tenants like the man-made lake with its reed bed that self-cleans gray water. - Eco Design, Vol V No 2, p. 26, by Bill Holdsworth. A CAR FOR EVERY DRIVER The US Department of Transportation's latest Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey says that, from 1969 to 1995, the vehicle population of the United States grew six times faster than its human population. The number of cars has increased two and a half times as fast as the number of households, and twice as fast as the number of drivers. The number of vehicles has risen by 144 percent, to 176 million. The number of drivers has also risen, but only by 72 percent. Drivers used to outnumber cars by 30 percent; now the two are equal. The number of households with three or more vehicles is 18.7 percent, up from 4.6 percent in 1969. "Inundation is not too strong a term for it," says transportation expert Alan E. Pisarski. But he says the growth spurt won't continue - the rush of women into the work force and of baby boomers into the ranks of licensed drivers has ended. "We're probably stabilizing at high levels," Pisarski continues, "but the key point is it doesn't matter, once we have more vehicles than drivers. Unless you accept the notion that a driver can drive more than one at a time... ." - The New York Times, September 21, 1997, p. 18, by Matthew L. Wald. TEXTILE ARCHITECTURE: MORE WITH LESS Usually limited to garden party tents or big tops, textile fabric structures can bring their material efficiency, adaptability, and thermal and light diffusing properties to permanent buildings. Strong and lightweight, textile fabric structures provide more shelter with fewer materials and components than conventional construction. Tensile structures made of fabrics with PVC-coated-polyester or Teflon-coated glass fibers can span up to 300 meters. Despite environmental concerns about these coatings and fibers, the membranes' high durability saves resources. Averaging 15 to 20 years, the life span of architectural fabrics compares to flat roofing materials, but their low materials and energy intensity allows them to be replaced or reused at relatively low environmental cost. Designing easily-reconfigured fabric structures around a permanent core creates a highly adaptable building that can grow and contract, an essential element of a durable and environmentally responsible building. And using a fabric sandwich with insulating air between reflective or transmissive membranes controls sunlight and buffers external conditions. For more information, call the Textile Environmental Network, Manchester, England, 0161.745.5276. - Eco Design, Vol V No 2, p. 36, by Kate Fletcher. NMS GUIDELINES GREEN SPECIFICATIONS Writers of the National Master Specification, Canada's leading construction specification tool, have developed a Guideline for Environmentally Enhanced Specifications for Construction and Renovation. The NMS Secretariat prepared the manual to help the Federal Government's designers and specifiers write green specifications for construction, renovation, demolition, and deconstruction projects. The manual applies a comprehensive set of criteria to various NMS sections and offers references, detailed information sources, examples of greened specifications, and case studies. [For more information, email Ian Z. Bartlett at the NMS Secretariat, bartleti@pwgsc.gc.ca.] - WasteNot, Spring-Summer 1997, p.1, by Ian Z. Bartlett. SPECIFYING ENERGY EFFICIENT LIGHTING Update your specifications - energy efficient lighting technology is increasingly sophisticated and economical. Boost fluorescent light output at low cost with specular reflectors. Following poor quality first runs, reputable manufacturers now offer durable and effective products. And use T5 and T4 ultra-thin fluorescent lamps with small electronic ballasts for higher lumen-per-watt output than T8 lamps. For downlighting and accent lighting, consider low-wattage metal halide PAR20 and PAR30 lamps, now with improved color rendering and stability. For outdoor flood lighting or remote-source lighting through optical fiber or interreflective film, consider lollipop-sized electrodeless sulfur lamps that provide incredibly bright light with a 60,000-hour life. - The Construction Specifier, August 1997, p. 35, by Mark Loeffler. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GreenClips is free of charge thanks to these sponsors - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 16:13:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08528 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20855 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18271; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:00:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16203 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm3a19.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.209]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16397; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:01:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001.094649.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 Beverly Weiter wrote regarding window choices for hot humid climates. In part: > >I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, >argon filled vs reflective coating vs. >..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >and the extreme humidity > >I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a >fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to >dust. > The question of whether to go with insulated glass or not is a non question as far as I'm concerned. Use insulated glass. Given the north-south orientation of the house, I would suggest also investing in a low-e coating (low-e2 or comparable, which lets less light through). The question of argon isn't as important. It doesn't cost much more, and is probably justified, particularly since you have an asthmatic child and thus should try to reduce condensation (= potential mold problems) as much as possible. For more detailed information, I suggest the book "Residential Windows," by Carmody, Selkowitz and Heschong, which I can't recommend too strongly. It's a great book (W.W. Norton publisher). -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 00:19:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA20748 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11851 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28687; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from igcb.igc.apc.org (igcb.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.46]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27423 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from igc2.igc.apc.org (root@igc2.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.39]) by igcb.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28208; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from crsp) by igc2.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14387; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710020405.VAA14387@igc2.igc.apc.org> From: Lois Arkin To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList: LA "green" buildings Cc: igt@wimsey.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 Dear Ian Theaker, Thanks for your GBlist post re "green" buildings. I was quite flattered to see L.A. Eco-Village included among the L.A. green architecture list. I was sorry to see that Eco-Home was not, as it is an outstanding example of a eco- retrofit of an ordinary old California bungalow. Founder Julia Russell has been involved in sustainable development demonstration and public advocacy for 15 years. I was a little put off by your "high ambitions, little funding... sigh." comment about L.A. Eco-Village. I am sure you did not mean to offend. However, in the interest of setting the record straight, let me offer that: 1. We paid all cash for our 1922 built 40 unit courtyard apartment building (i.e., $500,000). We have no bank mortgage! The eco-retrofit of this building was always planned as a three phase, 10 year project. It was not planned that way because of a shortage of money. 2. We are not concentrating on community economic development. We have concentrated quite a bit during the past five years on the development of community: building a sense of inter-connectedness, trust and social cohesion. From such a basis in community, larger physical and economic changes are possible without larger bureaucratic structures. 3. We are not located in "deepest darkest East LA" (what does that mean?). We are located about 3 miles west of downtown in the Wilshire Center/Koreatown Redevelopment area. Our two blocks, built out in the 20's, are mixed use, within walking distance of 20 buslines and two subway stops. Many of us who live here intentionally no longer own automobiles (we invite others to join us here for autoless urban living). The 1800 acre redevelopment area, close to the heart of our city is, according to our planning document, to be guided by the principles of sustainable development. It is a 30 year plan. It is one of the most multi-ethnic places on the face of the earth, with many billions of dollars of investment from all over the world and many press headquarters from all over the earth. So, you see, we easily have the potential to help make some very radical, very rapid and very deep changes worldwide. The chairperson of the board of our Redevelopment Agency, the largest in the country, is very committed to sustainable development. 4. L.A. Eco-Village is about demonstrating sustainable urban living patterns. Acquiring more of the buildings in our neighborhood is part of our agenda and eco-retrofitting our buildings in phases and, significantly, out of cash flow, demonstrates significant economic sustainability. We have a community revolving loan fund and are offering self selected interest rates for loans to our fund (0 to 8%) at self selected terms (18 months, 3 yrs. and 5 yrs.) and at self selected amounts ($1500 and up). 5. We have spent our summer deeply involved in saving a significant corner of Eco-Village from the Los Angeles Unified School District bulldozers. It has been an opportunity to expand public awareness about sustainable community at the highest levels of local and state government. And it looks like the bulldozers have been turned back for now (without one cent spent on attorneys!--we are about demonstrating a different way of being in our city). 6. We conduct three hour public tours if you or others plan to visit our city, which generally include a vegetarian lunch. ****************************************************************** Lois Arkin 3551 White House Place Los Angeles, CA 90004 Los Angeles Eco-Village: a sustainable community-in-process and the west coast node for the Ecovillage Network of the Americas (ENA) phone: 213/738-1254 fax: 213/386=8873 email: crsp@igc.apc.org web: http://alumni.caltech.edu/~mignon/laev.html ****************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 10:09:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01631 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15627 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05132; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:57:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05277 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.135] (p135.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.135]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24322 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:09 GMT Message-Id: <199710021406.OAA24322@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Slip Form Walls Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 08:03:12 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 On 9/30/97 12:00 AM John Salmen wrote: > ..... Perhaps the most interesting (for my sensibility) alternative to >investigate for slip form walls is the insulating potential of the >concrete binding mix itself. As long as sufficient strength or stiffness >remains to bind the rock material a large number of materials that have >the potential to create air pockets or contain air (chopped straw, etc.) >can be used. Enough research on mixes of this sort have been done to >adequately predict insulation values to be able to make a reasonable >performance design that would be acceptable for most code requirements. >The wall would be thick and would have to probably incorporate some >steel (or bamboo) for additional reinf. stiffness. but it would be >lighter, would have a reduced cement content, would be free of plastics >and would have an appealing simplicity of design in the materials used. This is a good description of the pumicecrete walls of my houses under construction. We approved them under adobe codes, so there is also no reinforcement. There is no material that I am aware of that is porous enough to insulate effectively, and at the same time has a strong enough matrix to hold reinforcment effectively (unless it is a dispersed reinforcement, such as straw or fiberglass). For example, in earthen construction, rebar weakens wall systems. In pumicecrete, its just useless. I'd like to hear of other materials, as I share John's desire for an integrated structural and insulative wall system. The disadvantage of pumicecrete, is that pumice is not found in very many places. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 10:48:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03206 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24348 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08834; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:38:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06395 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA131606; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:38:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:38:17 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RodLambert@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: window performance In-Reply-To: <970924212229_1097784358@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 Rod: Accelerated testing on windows can be done, but I am not sure which testing facility is (capable of) doing this and the cost. However, it is very important and would give you far more meaningful numbers and perhaps better reception by both professionals and the public to the current set of lables and ratings, which must be considered in the light of their serious weaknesses and limitations. This instantaneous testing of windows (or any other artifact) is a serious Achilles Heel of the "laboratory" testing industry. We don't bother doing blower door tests immediately after the completion of a building as is usual practice. Instead, we wait for a few years, until the drywall mud and paint has dried, the building has outgassed and settled, and has been used in the normal manner with live humans. Then you get far more meaningful real-world "in-situ" tests results, rather than instantaneous "start-up only" results. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 RodLambert@aol.com wrote: > Hi, I'm new to the list and have been following the discussion on "best > windows". > Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 > years? > Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows > with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a > few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance > (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) > It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole > picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to > later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 > years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse > over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air > again? Does the film degenerate similarily? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 11:09:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05493 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29331 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09525; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:00:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06988 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LmI28719; Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:02:32 EDT To: doughf@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Message-ID: <19971002.094529.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19971001163134.006f2cf8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9,12-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:02:32 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 Frazer, Thanks for the suggestion, but the reason the windows need to be changed is because they are old jalousies that do not even close tightly. My only concern is whether to specify double paned, low-e; single paned with reflective coating; or double paned with argon. Testing at this point would be somewhat a waste. I would be interested to know which brands of windows you have used and which you feel have the best performance and lasting value in our climate. I thought of suggesting wood windows after seeing some of the postings. I don't know if Wilmar is available here but it was a possibility. Thank you for any suggestions. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors 561-852-4262 f. 852-4663 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 12:48:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09087 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25358 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12662; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout38.mail.aol.com (emout38.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09990 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:38:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout38.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA15080; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002123441_-1765285995@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Instantaneous window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 Rod, et. al. I'm with Jorg on this fact. Long term performance and durability is a major weakness in comparing window products. That is one of the reasons why I am hesitant to "jump" to new technologies and new manufacturers that have not stood the test of (at least) time. There are some standards activities underway to bring some more "real world" durability data to the marketplace. One can simply look to the field data by the Sealed Insulating Glass Manufacturers Association (SIGMA) that shows over 10 percent field failues of IG units after 10 years! That's just ONE reason that IG seal durability is among the most important aspects of long term window energy performance. Again, look to the IG warranty as one measure of expected durability. Hardware is another subject altogether. Did YOUR windows go through 10,000 cycles of opening, closing, locking and cycling? (Subject for another rant on another day....) By the way, there are several window testing laboratories that can do accellerated testing of windows to a variety of user-defined conditions. There are no standard conditions yet (except for IG units alone). Try Architectural Testing in York, PA 717-764-7700 or ETC Laboratories in Rochester, NY 716-328-7668 among others. Check NFRC's list of labs for other potential US and Canadian labs that might be able to help. Chris Mathis MCSquared << Rod: Accelerated testing on windows can be done, but I am not sure which testing facility is (capable of) doing this and the cost. However, it is very important and would give you far more meaningful numbers and perhaps better reception by both professionals and the public to the current set of lables and ratings, which must be considered in the light of their serious weaknesses and limitations. This instantaneous testing of windows (or any other artifact) is a serious Achilles Heel of the "laboratory" testing industry.>> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 07:06:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05351 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA14417 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07726; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:56:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net (mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net [205.180.153.86]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03751 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net (mailtod-2.iap.alma.webtv.net [207.76.180.82]) by mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net (8.8.5/ms.graham.02jul97) with ESMTP id DAA28546; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16191; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710031059.DAA16191@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> From: michaelblate@webtv.net (Michael Blate) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:59:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #406 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 While it's not terribly "green," I wonder if the foam-forms (into which concrete is normally poured), could serve passably well in creating either rock-filled (then with concrete between the rocks) or else pumice-crete filled walls. I should think this would work reasonably well on a property that has lots of small stones -- keep the rebar into both for reinforcement as well as a "vibrator" when the (small amount of) concrete is finally poured, to jiggle it between the rocks and stones. I should think it would need to be VERY wet concrete, probably done with several pours. But it could probably be done by hand from a wheelbarrow, since most of the cavity would be rocks and stones. But I'm just rambling here. Good luck and be well! Michael Blate Heal Yourself and Your Loved Ones Using Only the Touch of Your Finger -- It Works! G-Jo Acupressure ... www.g-jo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 11:24:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10613 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06205 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12944; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:13:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08524 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LXS14997; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 11:14:15 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace -Reply Message-ID: <19971003.110757.4567.1.BANDJF@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-20,24-26 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 11:14:15 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 Dear Arnie- You wrote: >Given what you've described about your house, I highly >recommend finding a competent diagnostician to figure out what's >going on. Are the ducts really sealed? Since tape was used, the >answer is probably not. Is duct leakage causing negative >pressures in the house, causing air (along with contaminants) to be >sucked in from the attic and/or garage? How tight is the house? >How well sealed is the house from the attic? The Garage? > >An experienced person with a blower door, a duct blaster, a >manometer, and some sense can probably figure out what's >actually going on in a few hours, and possibly save you a bunch of >money in terms of going down non-productive paths. Occasionally, >this person might be an engineer, but experience, training, and >having the right tools are much more important. Thanks much for your reply/. Sorry it took me this long to be able to respond with a thank you . I am in the process now of doing just that. Trying to set something up to get that testing done. There's no doubt about it- that it is necessary. Thanks for the education, and help. Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 13:27:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15473 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06871 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15515; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12214 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:17:47 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA11077; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971003131926_354754115@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Loose windows in South Florida Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 Beverly, Sounds like almost ANY change you make will be an improvement over your old jalousies.... (commonly called "ja-loosies"). First, regarding TIGHTNESS: In general, windows with bulb-type compression weatherstripping are the tightest, especially after repeated openings and closings. These are predominantly used on CASEMENT-type windows. These are also the best at "catching" prevailing breezes to aid in cooling or venting. Choose windows that have a tested air leakage value less than 0.1 cfm/sqft or 0.1 cfm/ft of crack length. Make sure the values are recently tested and certified (either by AAMA or NWWDA). If certified, the manufacturer will be able to show you a test report and a certification label on the window. If you are stuck with sliding or hung windows, again, look for low air leakage values, labeled and certified. Second, regarding vinyl outgassing: While I don't know everything about the U of F study, I do know that not all plastics are the same and not all "vinyl" is the same. If you want low maintenance, vinyl-clad or metal-clad are your best option. Check with the name brand manufacturers of clad windows for specific outgassing data. Andersen is the largest manufacturer of vinyl clad wood windows. Pella is the largest manufacturer of aluminum clad wood windows. There are many others. Metal frames in South Florida have been around for a while and may be sufficient for your needs, though not as energy efficient. I'd be REAL cautious about hollow vinyl windows in south Florida. (Anybody know how hot a south-facing surface gets in the summer there?). As always, check the warranties and go with a manufacturer that will stand behind their product. But for your energy concerns about the windows, the glass is everything there..... Regarding ENERGY PERFORMANCE: You want to find windows that provide (1) desired visual clarity with (2) appropriately low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGCs). The lower the SHGC, the greater your air conditioning savings. (reducing the soal heat gain contribution to the cooling load). There are lots of glazing options that are designed to reduce solar gains.... many are tinted or colored. BEWARE! Just because a glass is tinted or colored does not necessarily mean it is good at rejecting solar gains! Some of these glazings are good absorbers! My choice would be to find one of the "spectrally selective" low-e coatings that provides a very low SHGC while maintaining a good visual clarity. These are enclosed in an insulated glass (IG) unit to protect the coating. Both Cardinal Glass and PPG make coatings of this type. All of the major manufacturers have these glazing options. (If you don't mind a little tint, there are also some low-e coatings designed to reject even more solar gain with a slight loss of visible transmittance.) Look for SHGCs less than 0.35 in South Florida. Then decide how clear you want your glass to be. Again, look for NFRC ratings and labels to be sure you are getting the cooling savings you desire. Changing your old windows, with improvements in both air leakage and solar control, should dramatically impact your comfort and air conditioning bills. !!!!Please let the list know what decision you make and what changes/savings result.!!!! Good Luck! Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 23:47:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28734 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09163 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA25919; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA24948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:36:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (ns.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24933 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:36:39 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42626>; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:51:27 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01IODU3VDCQ8003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 21:30:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:30:01 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Carpet glue To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 What suggestions could anybody make for carpet adhesive that is VOC free? I am a jazz musician in a dilemma. I have been hired to play a steady gig in a new club - but the owner wants to do some major renovating before opening - tile - carpet - paint as well as some remodeling. I have Environmental Illness - with multiple chemical sensitivites - and when our church re-carpeted, it was over a year before I could go back without major symptoms. I last about 10 minutes in the new Walmart that just opened. I know there are many factors involved in construction/renovation, but I have high suspicions about the carpet glue. I have talked to the contractor, and the tile adhesive he uses is ECO 300, which is aparently VOC free, and the spec sheet sounds pretty good on it. The only listed dangerous ingredient is silica crystalline,Quartz - 10-30%. The carpet glue he wants to use is the Roberts 3000 which doesn't sound as friendly, listing mineral spirits - 3 1/2 % as its hazardous ingredient, and a host of potential side effects from exposure. The contractor doesn't seem to have much time to discuss my concerns - his solution is to say - I don't think it will be a problem. Anyway - I've also explored the tacfast carpet system, and this sounds very good, but again, the local contractor is unfamiliar with this, and not too excited about finding out details. Could anybody make suggestions as to the friendliest - most chemical free way of doing the renovating thing - especially the carpet. Are all carpets pretty much equally friendly themselves, chemical wise - outside of going to a wool carpet. This is a commercial venture, so durability is a concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The plus side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking area, so should be pretty good. Thanks for any help. I've been really enjoying reading this list. I believe I have seen responses from someone in Calgary. Maybe we could link up in terms of supliers in this area for some friendlier products. Medicine Hat is pretty much in the dark when it comes to *greenbuilding*. Lyle Rebbeck Medicine Hat College Medicine Hat, Alberta ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 09:09:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09487 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00316 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07520; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA00334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:59:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00330 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32136; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:59:36 -0600 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:59:35 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue In-Reply-To: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 In response to the edited section below, tile is far better from an indoor air quality, durability and maintainence point of view. Also mortar set & grout are far better than chemical adhesives. In addition area rugs of wool or cotton could be used in certain floor areas (+ wall areas) to absorb sound. At an Indoor Environment Conference yesterday I and the other speakers all avoided new or removed old carpets. Not one was installing carpets into residential or school applications. If the club owns the premises, and the owner has some foresight and wants to have a good return on investment for his renovations, they may want to add a Heat Recovery Ventilator to exhaust fumes while preheating cold outside replacement air. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca wrote: >This is a commercial venture, so durability is a concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The plus > side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking area, so > should be pretty good. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 11:49:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11011 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27900 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12101; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:39:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02787 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.47 (pm1-15.hoosier.net [206.106.67.47]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31816 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:42:23 -0500 Message-ID: <34366360.2A56@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 10:40:19 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: new books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 I thought you all might be interested in a new resource on low-tox construction. I've just completed a complete revision of my book "The Healthy House." It contains over twice as much information as previous editions and nearly 500 addresses of suppliers. Check it out at: http://www.hhinst.com/booksvideos.html There's actually another new book there also: "The Healthy House AnswerBook." Good health! John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 11:51:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11034 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28389 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12280; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:42:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02876 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06696; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:41:56 -0700 Message-ID: <34366347.8C9B384@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 08:39:51 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 Hi Lyle I don't have a lot of experience with carpets - as Jorg suggested it has been more a question of avoiding their usage and finding alternatives. I imagine the owner is wanting to use the carpet for acoustical purposes and its probably a commercial grade (which might be an advantage as manufacturers have been more responsive on IAQ concerns within commercial applications). The carpet fibres (or type of carpet) is less a concern than its installation and usage. Most carpets however are treated (the fibres coated) for stain resistance and you might want to do some research on this aspect as the chemical mix varies formaldehyde for eg. has been a common binder (commercial carpets can actually be better in this respect as the fibres and loops are coarser and shorter and can require less treatment). The underlay or attached foam backing is more of a concern as this is a foam product and can be quite unstable (again there has been a lot of changes in requirements for outgassing in such products ie. EEC standards and some North American manuf. might have made changes in their products to make them acceptable for European usage) A commercial product uses less and denser foam and again may be more acceptable. I have no experience with adhesives for carpets but I am sure other correspondents do (John Bower might have some product suggestions). If an adhesive is to be used you could suggest that they minimize their usage to a spot or grid application (this would make the contractor happy) The irony of carpet usage is that as the effects of the installation dissipate the negative aspects of the carpet itself become stronger (as they concentrate other pollutants, cleaners, etc.) You might want to talk to the club owner about their cleaning routine ie. products used, etc. If changes are being made to the HVAC you might want to ensure a source of filtered supply in the performance area - or as a personal strategy ensure adequate room ventilation before performing or bring a small fan with an attached hose to an ext. air source. Its unfortunate that public areas are treated in this way - I'm glad you are working to bring these concerns to the contractors and owners attention. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca wrote: > > What suggestions could anybody make for carpet adhesive that > is VOC > free? I am a jazz musician in a dilemma. I have been hired to play a > steady > gig in a new club - but the owner wants to do some major renovating > before > opening - tile - carpet - paint as well as some remodeling. I have > Environmental Illness - with multiple chemical sensitivites - and when > our > church re-carpeted, it was over a year before I could go back without > major > symptoms. I last about 10 minutes in the new Walmart that just > opened. I know > there are many factors involved in construction/renovation, but I have > high > suspicions about the carpet glue. > I have talked to the contractor, and the tile adhesive he uses > is ECO > 300, which is aparently VOC free, and the spec sheet sounds pretty > good on it. > The only listed dangerous ingredient is silica crystalline,Quartz - > 10-30%. > The carpet glue he wants to use is the Roberts 3000 which doesn't > sound as > friendly, listing mineral spirits - 3 1/2 % as its hazardous > ingredient, and a > host of potential side effects from exposure. The contractor doesn't > seem to > have much time to discuss my concerns - his solution is to say - I > don't think > it will be a problem. Anyway - I've also explored the tacfast carpet > system, > and this sounds very good, but again, the local contractor is > unfamiliar with > this, and not too excited about finding out details. > Could anybody make suggestions as to the friendliest - most > chemical > free way of doing the renovating thing - especially the carpet. Are > all > carpets pretty much equally friendly themselves, chemical wise - > outside of > going to a wool carpet. This is a commercial venture, so durability > is a > concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The > plus > side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking > area, so > should be pretty good. > Thanks for any help. I've been really enjoying reading this > list. I > believe I have seen responses from someone in Calgary. Maybe we could > link up > in terms of supliers in this area for some friendlier products. > Medicine Hat > is pretty much in the dark when it comes to *greenbuilding*. > Lyle Rebbeck > Medicine Hat College > Medicine Hat, Alberta > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 02:49:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA24825 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01999 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10069; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:38:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17486; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NEHEMIAS (usr3.cwo.com [207.173.173.13]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02697; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:42:25 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:42:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 Beverly A. Weiter WROTE: ... >Here in S. Florida were are "tropical" : no cold or even >much cool - mostly just hot and hotter and very humid. > >I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, >argon filled vs reflective coating vs. >..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >and the extreme humidity. I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. > Beverly, Carmody, Selkowitz and Heschong's book IS a great source. On some of the other acvice that Alex gave, I'm afraid I have to disagree {no offence Alex). If the problem that you are trying to avoid is condensation IN the windows, then what you need is a high quality dual glazed system. Neither argon, low-e coatings nor any other "add-on" will prevent condensation within the insulated galss unit. That is done by using quality spacer material and installing it correctly in the factory. As far as energy efficieny from windows in the So Fla environment, if the windows are not adequately shaded by building elements (overhangs, awnings, etc.) then you should go for glazing that has a low solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC). Achieving a low SHGC is not strictly the purpose of low-e coatings. The low emissivity slows down heat LOSSES. Most of the heat gain due to windows is not from conduction, but from direct solar radiation. Some low-e coatings also provide a low SHGC, but now all. Two glazings, both with a low-e coatings whose emissivity is ~0.20, can have SHGCs of 0.40 and 0.84. The latter would be best for the great frozen North (maximizing solar gains) and the former would be best for your climate (assuming that you want a low-e coating). There are other ways to achieve the energy efficiency benefits of a reduced cooling load. You should consider some of them: shade screens, awnings, deciduous trees, etc. I realize that not all of these would be appropriate for the client right now. I also realize that the windows need replacing so which winodw is the right one is really the question. However, consider that once you install a window with a very low SHGC, you cannot take advantage of the winter heating of the sun. If the house has a N/S orientation, this is a potential that it might be a shame to waste. For cooling purposes, I recommend glazings like Low-e squared for east and west facing windows. I recommend a high SHGC glass for the south windows and some means of taking advantage of the changing sun angle from winter to summer. BTW, for cooling, argon gives you NOTHING. It is a waste of your money to pay for it. With all but one technology that I know of, it is highly likely that most of it would escape within a few years anyway. Nehmiah Stone California Energy Commission p.s. You have a GREEEAT source os information on this topic in your backyard. You might want to give Florida Solar Energy Center a call; specifically Ross McCluney. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:46:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03304 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02067 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17598; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:35:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23137 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGR24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Exchangers Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <199709230125.UAA96346@glacier.binc.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-31,39 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 On Mon, 22 Sep 97 19:34:26 -0000 Chris & Ruth Koehn writes: >Sahara is a dehumidifier. As far as I know, it doesn't have any air >exchange capabilities. > >Air exchangers in warm humid climates are a tricky business. There >are >two basic types of energy exchanging wheels- enthalpic and >non-enthalpic. >I believe the non-enthalpic one is recommended for your climate. > >The problem comes in that when you introduce fresh outside air, you >also >introduce a bunch of humidity. Theoretically your A/C unit will >handle >this, but it has to work overtime to do so. > >Carrier makes a very good air exchanger. I have spec'd it multiple >times. >But be aware that they were all designed for heating climates. My hvac > >contractor, who loves a challenge, throws up his hands with this one. >If >you find a good solution, I'll love to hear it. > >Best, > >Chris Koehn >Top Ridge Timber Frame Homes >Pewaukee, WI > Thanks Chris for answering my post, and your input on this situation. Sorry it took me so long to respond. We had sent away and received some info on the Carrier unit, which someone else also recommenced. I find it interesting what you said that these units are really designed for heating climates because with all the humidity in the southern climates I'd just think this would be an important issue here- to people with allergies, for example. Thanks again for the info- We're working on solutions. I'll let you know what happens. Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:47:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03313 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02183 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17712; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23142 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGS24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.5.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-26,33-34,38-39,50-51,53 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) "Mike O'Brien" writes: >Hello, Beth-- > >For once I'm going to beat Bruce Sullivan to the punch and tell you >that >the Sahara is made by DEC International, Inc. Therma-Stor Products >Group in >Madison Wisconsin. Their phone number is 1-800-533-7533. While we have >not >seen a Sahara installed here in Portland, our experience with other >DEC >products and their product engineers has been excellent. > >John Bower will probably have some insights into the smell you >described, >but I wondered if you had mentioned whether you have air conditioning? >If >so, what happens to the water that condenses on the air conditioning >coil? >Is it possible there is a back-up in the drip pan or drain hose that >would >allow algae or mold to grow, or to wet the drywall or insulation? > >Best, Mike > Hi Mike- Sorry it took a while to respond. Thanks for answering my post, and the info on the Saraha. . We have central air- that's the thorn in my side, because that's the air I have to breathe that is pumped into the house, and it is making me ill. To answer your question about what happens to the water that condenses on the coils- it goes into a drip pan into a drain pipe. We checked the water flowing from there to the outside and it is clear. There is no way for me to know what is causing this "odor", yet., but we are having the ducts checked for leaks and having "blower door testing" done this week. Hopefully this will give us some insight as to what is going on, so we can make some progress on rectifying the situation. One thing that was mentioned to me worth noting is that I always have the fan constantly running when the air conditioning is on, because of the "Pure Air " system that was installed, and the fact that i am trying to purify the air constantly when I am in the house. However, with the fan going- when the compressor is not running the way I understand this is that the coils would be warming up and causing more condensation. Instead of it going into the drip pan and out, the fan would be blowing the moisture back into the system. For me this is a "Catch 22, because I need that "Pure Air system running to help with my situation. So, That's where it is at right now. Waiting for testing, and then seeing where that leads us. Thanks Again, Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:47:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03320 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02247 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17655; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23146 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGT24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.6.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <199709222206.RAA20456@mail.topher.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-52,69 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:06:07 -0500 ewestbrook writes: > >We have an HRV with a dessicant wheel (to remove moisture) and speed >control/on-off switch that works very well. It's made by AirXchange. >The >contact I have for them, which is about 18 mos. old, is Keith >Robinson, >Rockland, MA, 617-871-4816. I think the Model 503 cost about $700, >making it >the best value as well as the best performer that we could find. Ours >is set >up to blow the make-up air into the supply duct; talk with AirXchange >to see >what installation would suit your house. > >You might also check out EPA publication #400/1-90/002 (February >1990), >_Residential Air-Cleaning Devices: A Summary of Available >Information_. It >mainly discusses filter types and efficiencies. To order it, call the >Govt. >Publications Office in Washington DC. > >And just one more word on inside sources: particleboard and fabrics >(especially upholstery fabrics and permanent-press) are some of the >biggest >sources of formaldehyde. These are sometimes less obvious than things >like >carpet. Formaldehyde emissions peak fairly early and then decline >slowly, so >furniture that's 8-10 years old will cause fewer problems than new >furniture. Clothes you've washed a lot are probably okay, but sheets >can be >a big problem. I suppose, if you're especially sensitive to plastics, >even >some of the allergen-proof mattress covers could cause problems for >you. If >you don't know about them yet, Seventh Generation (now Harmony, I >think) >carries untreated "green" sheets, in both organic and nonorganic >versions. > >Looking around my house, I can only pray I never get sensitive to >plastic -- >our CD collection alone must have hundreds of square feet of surface >area! > >Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions on the air exchanger. Thanks Elena for replying to my situation. I appreciate the info your wrote me about how your system is set up with the 'AirXchange" - and the contact. We are in the process of getting the house tested, to hopefully make some progress in my "bad- air" conditioning odor. The inside of the house- as far as furnishings go- is very sparse. We have tile floors, the kitchen cabinets, however, we need to replace at some time. Just can't do everything at once. That's another area of investigation, at another time. I realize that one problem compounds another. We did have the house tested, and formaldehyde is not one of the problems- Thank goodness. The furniture is not new- and I use organic bedding. I do remember the days of plastic covers on things- I have organic all the way here. No plastic. Yes, Seventh Generation, is where I've purchased many quality blankets, and so on. I hear you loud and clear when you say you pray you never get sensitive to plastics. But we do try to find ways around everything. I thank you very much for you note, and the info. I'll surely let you know if I have more questions on the air exchanger. Thanks much! Beth. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 10:51:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27439 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14240 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12304; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21090 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21086 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KSM26301; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: windows for S. Florida Message-ID: <19971006.092538.4495.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 To Chris, Nehemiah et al, Thanks for the response from all of you. Your comments are greatly appreciated. I now feel well armed to do battle with the contractors and sales people. My clients, too, will be happy to be rid of the windows which have so plagued them since buying the house. My best to you all for your generous advice. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 10:51:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27445 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14278 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12232; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21111 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21106 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KSL26301; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971006.092538.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@acd.mhc.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 Hi, Read you question re carpet glue etc. While I agree, no carpet would be best, if the owner insists on carpet tell him to insist on W.O. Taylor adhesive for the carpet. For paint (just as much a potential outgassing source) I suggest Non-Toxica (available through Color Wheel stores) or, failing that, Glidden 2000 or Benjamin Moore, Pristine. Non-Toxica, a paint used extensively in medical offices, is also available by calling 800-731-5007. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL 561-852-4262 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 12:25:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29097 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06163 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14829; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:12:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23849 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: DSaum@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA01396; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971006121218_272434864@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: DSaum@epsilon.nova.org Subject: GBlist: Nationwide blower door contractor list? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 I get a lot of calls asking for the location of nearest contractor who can do a blower door test, duct leakage test, or other forms of house doctoring. So I am putting up a web page that offers a free listing to contractors who offer these tests. See my new page http://www.infiltec.com/inf-bdc.htm If you want to be listed on this page at no charge, please send me the following information: ZIP, URL(optional), company name, email address(optional), your name, phone(xxx-xxx-xxxx), city, state(xx) Please DO NOT send it to the Green Building List. To help reduce my data entry, please DO send it in the format above to my company email address DSaum@infiltec.com The minimum requirement for listing is offering blower door tests to the public, but you should also indicate what other house doctoring you provide (duct testing, pressure balancing with micromanometer, HERS auditing, energy audit, home inspection, etc.) I may add more information like this to the current format. Ciao, Dave Saum Infiltec PO Box 8007, Falls Church, VA 22041 703-820-7696, fax 703-671-9350 DSaum@infiltec.com http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 12:33:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29233 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07972 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14956; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:19:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24093 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itjfvkli ([12.69.123.82]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA6028 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:22:11 +0000 From: "Mary McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: Thanks for info building bake-outs Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:26:45 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971006162209.AAA6028@itjfvkli> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 Many thanks for all the information on pros and cons of building bake-outs. I was most impressed with the depth and knowledge of this group and certainly appreciate all the suggestions. They have been given to the building manager and we are hopeful the management will listen to some of the suggestions. Mary McDaniel marmac1@worldnet.att.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 17:44:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01967 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28402 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01368; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:28:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout37.mail.aol.com (emout37.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04862 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout37.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA20815; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971006172736_1965618878@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 In a message dated 10/1/97 11:06:52 AM, you wrote: <> Beverly, In Florida I'd look for windows that have a Shading Coefficient of around 0.35 to cut down on solar transimission. My own experience over the years has lead me to believe that large temperature difference between the inner and outer glazings and dramatic cycling of the outer pane temperature are strongly linked to with edge seal failure. I believe expansion and contraction flexs the spacer-sealant system. Edge seal failure is annoying. Some manufacturers make panels easier to replace than others. Ask about that directly - what's it take to replace a panel? Another approach would be to use windows that are air vented, and to slightly pressurize the building (if it's air conditioned that is). That would be a single glazed window with a tight fitting storm. That combination would have very little condensation between the panels. See if you can get hard coat low-e in the prime window. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 09:18:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20733 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22836 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22967; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:08:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23763; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:08:37 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA01455; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971007090903_-926440725@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Windows Workshop at EEBA 11/5: Snapshot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Friends, A final update on the "Windows" workshop scheduled for Wednesday, November 5 at the EEBA conference in Denver. We have assembled a pretty good group of "experts" to talk about a variety of issues related to window, door and skylight performance. We have also collected some fun "show and tell" to hammer home some old problems and some new solutions. And then there are the "horror stories".... we're still collecting photos and stories to share, so if you have some great horror stories of your own, send them - bring them - share them!!!! Last but not least, we are going to talk about the future.... new glazing and frame technologies, future building code issues and other "futuristic" issues. The agenda is as follows: (minor modifications allowed) {handouts in brackets} "Windows: Forget What You Think You Know." By R. Christopher Mathis, Mathis Consulting Company. This presentation will focus on de-bunking old "rules-of-thumb" regarding windows and energy performance. New framing, glazing and spacer materials will be discussed. "Don’t trust your eyes" and other "new rules" will be discussed. New tools to help determine the appropriate energy efficiency expectations and ways to ensure "getting what you pay for" will also be addressed. How to read the variety of product labels. {Residential Windows Book, NFRC Directory, Sample energy labels, Sample specification language.} "Windows: Prioritizing Performance Attributes." By John Carmody, University of Minnesota. This presentation will give builders immediate tools with which to prioritize and select product energy performance. Based on the recent book "Residential Windows: A Guide to New Technology and Energy Performance", attendees will be given a series of new, climate specific-fact sheets to help in selecting the appropriate windows for their projects. {Window Selection Fact Sheets} "Regulations: What Does the Code Language REALLY mean." By Garrett Stone, Brickfield, Burchette and Ritts PC. This presentation will provide the audience with the latest updates on energy codes as they relate to window performance. Window language in the Model Energy Code and ASHRAE 90.1 and 90.2 will be reviewed. Federal and several state codes will also be presented. How these codes may impact your new and retrofit construction decisions will be discussed. Real world code compliance examples and solutions will be presented {State code map, MECcheck Computer Program} "Window Horror Stories: More than Just a Scary Movie." Chris will lead an interactive discussion. He has (unfortunately) collected a number of real world "horror stories" he will share. The audience is invited to bring their own collection of window-related horror stories for what is sure to be a lively, interactive discussion. Slides (not for the faint of heart). "The Future of Windows: From Low to High Tech." By Dariush Arasteh, Staff Scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. One of the nation’s leading windows researchers will tease the audience with some of the technological innovations the future may bring. Several examples of some of the "just-around-the-corner" technologies will be on display. This should be an exciting glimpse into the future of window technology, energy efficiency and product attributes. {Show and tell materials and samples} "Installation Matters: Where the Rubber Meets the Road." By Steve Easley. Even the most energy efficient windows can be a real "dog" if not installed properly. However, we never REALLY know what the conditions of the installation will be, especially in replacement jobs. Real world installation headaches will be presented and practical solutions will be shown. {Slides, Installation checklist and guide} Additional Notes: Audience participation is essential. Discussion/Q&A will occur throughout the day. Real world products will be available for touching and examining. Thanks for all your input to date. Keep those horror stories coming in. Hope to see you all in Denver! Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 Ph: 301-596-1931 Fax: 410-964-1424 rcmathis1@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 13:00:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25547 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24733 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04345; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:46:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00818 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.132] (1Cust4.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.132]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15792 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710071649.JAA15792@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Wood Use Statistics for Home Building? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 09:48:28 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 Hello Everyone I'm looking for some statistics about the amount of wood that's used in homes and hopefully the amount that can be saved by various construction practices. Rob W. sent me a preview copy of the wonderful NRDC report on this topic which does contain some figures. However, I'm looking for additional sources. I recall an organization in the SF Bay area...was it the Wood Reduction Clearinghouse? If anyone can point me to this or other sources, I'd be very grateful. Thanks Bruce S. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 14:01:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26688 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA12968 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06080; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:50:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03166 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.176] (li-ppp11.hevanet.com [204.119.60.176]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19028 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 >Beverly A. Weiter WROTE: >>..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >>resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >>and the extreme humidity. I have a client who needs to change windows and >I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >>added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. >> > >Beverly Hi, Beverly-- One difference between seals in windows is the material and the way its applies--inexpensive windows may have a layer of polysulfide on either side of the spacer, better windows may have a double seal--poly plus butyl along the edge of the glazing unit. I think that Terry is right about the differential expansion and contraction. And here along our windy coast we see a lot of foggy windows, especially big view windows, so I speculate that wind vibrating the outer pane can cause the seal to fail. That would seem to indicate that smaller windows would be more resistant to this failure. One window guy here told me he thinks the seals can be decomposed by UV so he recommends keeping the window edges shaded, either by the frame itself or the building structure. We definitely have seen seals fail where glazing units in site-built windows were not supported properly along the bottom with butyl blocks, or they were sloped in sunspace/greenhouse walls and the support was only holding up the bottom glass. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 14:56:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28650 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00082 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07533; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:46:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05007; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98214; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:45:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:45:12 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Windows Workshop at EEBA, Snapshot In-Reply-To: <971007090903_-926440725@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 Chris: Further to your window snap shot and the particular aspects quoted below: 1) are there any discussions/workshops/booth on SunPipes and similar devices? 2) are there any real-world doers/experiences/prototypes with high performance windows besides wishful thinking that "may" or maynot be relevant some time? 3) Will Southwall or Andersen be there or discuss their most recent work/products? 4) Is there any presentaton on simplifying the window lables to make them meaningful to most users? 5) will there be any discussion about multi-purpose windows (ie. PV, daylighting, curtain wall, thermal collector)? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > issues related to window, door and skylight performance. > we are going to talk about the future.... new glazing and frame > technologies, future building code issues and other "futuristic" issues. > > How to read the variety of product labels. {Residential Windows Book, NFRC Directory, Sample energy labels, Sample specification language.} > technological innovations the future may bring. Several examples of some of > the "just-around-the-corner" technologies will be on display. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 15:25:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29144 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10805 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08548; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:16:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06147 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.246.56] (1Cust56.max6.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.246.56]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA26149 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710071918.MAA26149@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood Use Statistics for Home Building? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 12:17:41 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 Leslie Thanks for the lead to Green Home. I'm embarassed to admit that we sell that book in our catalog and I did'nt know this information was in there. >What is the title of the NRDC publication you mentioned? The title is "Saving Wood, Saving Money, Saving Trees: A Handbook on Efficient Wood-Use for Building Industry Professionals." The authors are Ann Edminster and Sami Yassa. Rob mentioned it on the list a couple of weeks ago. It's undergoing a review. I don't know when the final version will be published. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 15:42:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29434 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16013 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08959; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:32:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06696 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.179] (pm1a15.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.145]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19367; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:35:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Mike O'Brien" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 Mike O'Brien offered the following pearls of wisdom: > >One difference between seals in windows is the material and the way its >applies--inexpensive windows may have a layer of polysulfide on either side >of the spacer, better windows may have a double seal--poly plus butyl along >the edge of the glazing unit. > The problem with seals in windows tends to be much greater in coastal environments. Harbor seals have been a particular problem in some areas. Not only do they lead to infiltration, but they also block the view. If you're experiencing one of these problems, I would call the Monterey Bay Aquarium or the Woods Hole Oceanographic Research Station (depending on your coastal orientation). I'm not sure what to suggest for double seals. Good luck, -Alex Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 11:31:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27717 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23514 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05627; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA14739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14735 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LsQ26285; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971008.100142.8207.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-8,10-11,14-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 Dear Jorg, First, let me say, I am red faced - the company is W.F. Taylor, not W.O. Taylor. Their number is 800-397-4583 andwe show a contact person as Fay. Our local supplier which caters to the flooring installers carries W.F. Taylor as a standard. They have all the W.F.Taylor line , including glues for linoleum, VCT tile etc. Check with your local carpet installers. Most should have this or an equivalent. Natural Cork in August, GA, just told me of another brand called Chapco, which they co-recommend with Taylor for installation of their cork floorings. Beverly ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 11:32:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27738 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23658 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05682; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA14756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14752 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LsP26285; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT To: joanne@livos-us.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971008.100142.8207.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199710061611.KAA23115@livos-us.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,9-12,14-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 Dear Joanne, My "snail mail" is 21000 Boca Rio Road, Suite a-27, Boca Raton,FL 33433. If you are talking about Livos or Bau-Biologie I already have info on them but will not use the products here in FL. There are no preservatives and we have had trouble with spoilage due to the high heat. There is also a slight odor or oranges which some people react to. In addition, custom colors are a pain to achieve. With Non-Toxica, the plant is here in Fl. There are no preservatives but delivery is 3 days and can be gotten as needed in a full range of medium to light colors, including custom color matching, thanks to the Huls tinting system. I have been in this business 5 years and have checked out a variety of paints, including the AFM line as well and think I have finally found a viable solution. Thanks for your interest. Beverly Weiter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 17:20:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15595 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA14879 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14082; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA28174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA28166 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.211.90] (hd20-090.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.211.90]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA22995; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:11:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:11:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199710082111.OAA22995@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: New Web site (HealthyHomeDesigns) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 Green Builders and Indoor Environment Friends: ..................................................................... New Web site !! (Healthy Home Designs) B.E.S.T. recently completed a revised and updated web site for Linda Mason Hunter, well known author and provider of "Healthy Home" plans and design assistance since 1990. Please check out her new (final beta) web-site at: http://www.nrg-builder.com/healthyhomedesigns which replaces her former site on the "Green Homes Marketplace" which is, sadly, going out of business. A key feature of Healthy Home Designs is the offering of home plans specifically created for healthful living by a fine group of architects and designers she works with. We hope you find this new website useful. Regards, Bion (comments welcome) ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 23:53:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26219 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03239 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23686; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA10214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:38:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (gate.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10210 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42628>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:05:32 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01IOKU4P97ZA004ZDT@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 21:41:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:41:53 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Carpet glue - thanks To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01IOKU4P97ZC004ZDT@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 Thank you to all who responded to my querries about carpet glue. I have passed this on to the club owner - and tired to convince him of the long term value of tile, but the bottom line is, he isn't committed to long term unless this new club really proves itself. It is frustrating - he hears me, and wants to try and accomodate me, but he has cost at heart, along with past patterns of how things are done, and the reality of never having had to deal with a situation like this before. I apprecieated the point of being the canary in the mine, but few see it like this unless they are empathetic friends, or suffer from some silimar health condition. So - it looks like the best I can hope for is a larger percentage of tile to carptet than was previously planned - a hope for the lowest toxisity paint possible - the lowest VOC adhesives this contractor can be convinced to find - and a promise of running the air exchange at as high a fresh air rate as possible - and doors left open. Nothing guaranteed - but at least one wealthy business owner, a flooring contractor and a painter have been introduced to the idea of concerning themselves with the side effects of building materials and their effects on indoor air quality. Maybe a small concession if I can't go into the club to play, but I have to try and see something positive in this. You are all a wonderful source of information, and I can only thank you for your help and understanding, and encourage you in your work in this area that will prove to be one of the most important of the coming decade. Lyle Rebbeck lrebbeck@acd.mhc.ab.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 12:07:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25742 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19530 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17644; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02798 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:46:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02793 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:46:39 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1a-d138.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.138]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11128 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710101549.IAA11128@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Cedar shingles and alternatives to tar paper Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 Hello all, I'm new to the list, but I'm sure I'll find much useful information here (as on the Strawbale list!) and hope that I can contribute some too. My present question concerns tar paper and alternatives (if any) in the context of a cedar shingle roof. Is the paper really required, any technique for building without it? I'm planning to sheath the roof with T&G boards, then put on horizontal strapping (1x3) so as to get a "cold roof" (as protection against ice dams). I live in Prince Edward Island which is a fairly windy place although I'm not on the coast, but 20 km inland. I did look in the Crest archives but I didn't hit upon anything that seemed to address this question (I'll admit that I'm never sure if I really get what I'm searching for). Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 15:13:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01429 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16410 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03645; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09158 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:34 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts7l14.pathcom.com (ts7l14.pathcom.com [209.112.16.130]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25131 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710101858.OAA25131@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:55:20 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Dream Home Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 Builders: The "Dream Home" at this year's Home Show in Toronto was supposedly constructed in 72 hours using this stuff by Actech-USA and distributed by Affordable Building Concepts in Canada. It is panels of 26 gauge metal skin and stiffeners (?) which combine forming unit, vapour and air barrier, strapping and insulation, all in one piece. They claim: - reduce energy consumption a minimum of 40-50% - resistant to decay, fungus, moisture, mildew and insects - fireproof - contains no CFCs, HCFCs or formaldehyde - withstands 170 mph winds - certified by State of CA earthquake building code - accommodates virtually any exterior or interior finish Whaddya all think? Too good to be true? Has anyone actually priced and/or worked with this product? Any info would be welcome - thanks Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 21:54:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA10716 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09134 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09984; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA19785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:44:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA19758; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA08160; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971010214431_1444087674@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 Friends, Several asked about "window warranty" issues, so here is a first stab. I’ll welcome any additional comments and suggestions. (Perhaps we can turn this into a "consumer checklist" for future publication.) Also, those of you that might have some suggestions about how to take this "product warranty" information and couple it with some similar "installation warranty" guideline PLEASE HELP!!!!! ****Window Warranties 101**** When picking windows there are MANY things that influence decisions. Performance, looks, colors, durability, maintenance. ONE issue is WARRANTY. What is covered and what is not. Following are a few pointers of things to consider when comparing window warranties. General Warranty Rules: 1. Look for "Non-prorated" Warranties. Many warranties cover a LOT at the start.... but the coverage declines with the age of the product. Sometimes this decline is rapid, with the effective coverage diminishing to worthlessness in as little as 3 years! READ THE FINE PRINT. This "prorated" structure means that if you pay $200 for the window and later have to replace it, the manufacturer may only cover $50 or $100 of the replacement costs! And this does NOT include installation! Recommendation: Look for non-prorated warranty structures that cover the entirety of the original purchase price for the term of the warranty. 2. Look for long terms on the glass (IG) Units. Sealed Insulating Glass (IG) units are among the most critical components of delivering long term energy and visual performance of a window. (I’m not going to talk about warranties on single glazing because I can’t recommend them anywhere.) The seal on an IG unit is essential to the protection of low-e coatings and films as well as for retaining argon, krypton or other gasses that improve energy performance. When the seal fails, "out goes the good air and in comes the bad air...." Moisture in the air attacks the low-e coatings and corrosion (rust) begins to form. At the same time moisture condenses on the interior surfaces, dries out and leaves stains on the glass that can’t be cleaned. There goes the view. So probably the single most important element of ensuring PERFORMANCE over time is a good IG warranty. Recommendation: Look for an IG warranty of at least 10 years, and preferably 20. 3. Look for fully transferable warranties. When you go to sell you house, how often do you take your window with you? If there is still "value" left in the warranty, shouldn’t you be able to use that value in marketing your home? Some warranties are good "for the original buyer" only. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Recommendation: Look for warranties that are "fully transferable" to future owners. 4. Look for good coverage on hardware. Window operations are among many homeowners’ greatest headaches. The lock broke. The balance broke. The sash sticks. The crank handle broke. These seemingly "minor" headaches can turn into the inability to catch that fall breeze, a safety concern for a child or other concerns. A good window with bad hardware is a bad window. Many warranties don’t say anything about hardware! Some are more explicit. Make sure all "non-glass components" (that will include the hardware) is similarly guaranteed. Recommendation: Look for at least 10 years complete coverage on all non-glass components. (Also look for manufacturers that maintain inventory of replacement parts.) 5. Don’t expect your window warranty to cover installation. This may seem obvious to some, but many get caught in a finger-pointing battle over "who is responsible". Rarely will you find installation covered in a product manufacturer’s warranty [unless a manufacturer installs the product themselves and offers a warranty on the installation.] If making a significant investment in windows, you may want to seek some type of warranty coverage from the contractor or builder. Sound crazy? Just ask the folk in North Carolina involved in the class action suit on wall failures. Who is responsible for the accuracy and integrity of the installation? Though the jury is still out on that case, it is a good example of the need for clarity in "who is responsible". Similarly, if a wall is built improperly allowing water to get into places on a window where it is "not supposed to get to", window performance can be compromised. Recommendation: Spend as much energy looking into who is standing behind the installation as you do in looking at the window product warranties. 6. Environmental exclusions. Some warranties specifically exclude certain environments. Such as area with high humidity or salt spray/coastal environs. These exclusions may apply to the hardware, the finishes, or the glass. Some exclusions, such as damage caused by acid rain, are nearly universal. Recommendations: Again, read the exclusions in the fine print to determine if any particular environmental exclusions apply. 7. Finishes. Some manufacturers offer warranty coverage on finishes (paints, coatings, cladding). Others do not. Repainting, restaining or refinishing are also a "mixed bag" of coverage among manufacturers. Recommendation: Review the warranty to identify any limitations on the coverage for finishes. 8. Performance. You will rarely find warranties that specifically address long-term aspects of expected performance, such as U-factor and air leakage values over time. These are embodied (somewhat) in the coverage on the IG units and the hardware and weatherstripping. Hopefully NFRC will successfully address energy performance durability in its efforts. Other issues, such as operation, water integrity and others will probably not surface in most warranties. Recommendation: If the rest of the warranty passes muster, you are probably dealing with a manufacturer that desires to protect their reputation, and, as such, is probably going to deliver some reliable performance information. Look for NFRC labels. Look for third party certification of air leakage, water penetration and structural performance. Look to see if specific performance attributes are covered in the warranty. There are other issues related to warranty repairs, replacement and service that should be considered. These include: (1) availability of replacement parts and inventory; (2) ability to respond quickly to a service request; and, (3) doing business with a company that will be in business next year or 5 years after you bought the product or for the life of the warranty. Again, I welcome any additions/thoughts on improving this list and recommendations. Sorry for the length of the post. (If you would like to spare the lists further commentary on these items, I welcome comments sent directly to me. However, if you have some great additions or refinements, I'm sure the lists would appreciate them.) R. Christopher Mathis MCSquared rcmathis1@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 11 11:13:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27123 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24498 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15976; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:02:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29395 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA24414; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: <343F93F2.926C7F53@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:57:54 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pierremasson@geocities.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cedar shingles and alternatives to tar paper X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199710101549.IAA11128@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 I've been in buildings that had cedar (shake) roofs that were over 100 years old. From the attic you could see daylight through the shakes and on wet days moisture seeping through. This type of roof is highly dependent on air flow to maintain any integrity and so was traditionally installed without any paper or sheathing that could trap moisture or debris or limit air movement. When code requirements for papering a roof became enforced in our area a number of older roofers either refused to do shake roofs or provide any warranty. The basic thought was that the roof would last as long as the roofing paper. Shakes are the most traditional of wood roofing products i.e. they are split (along the grain) from very premium chunks of old growth cedar. Their durability is a factor of both tightness of grain and that the grain lines are intact (not cut as in shingles). Short supplies of old growth lumber are having an impact on the quality of shakes and shingles produced. The real question for me is not really about function but appropriateness. The trees used are irreplaceable and their value incalculable. I would look at some of the wood/cement composite shingles being produced as an alternative. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Shakes or shingles are not a sustainable product pierremasson@geocities.com wrote: > > Hello all, > > I'm new to the list, but I'm sure I'll find much useful information > here (as > on the Strawbale list!) and hope that I can contribute some too. > > My present question concerns tar paper and alternatives (if any) in > the > context of a cedar shingle roof. Is the paper really required, any > technique for building without it? I'm planning to sheath the roof > with T&G > boards, then put on horizontal strapping (1x3) so as to get a "cold > roof" > (as protection against ice dams). I live in Prince Edward Island > which is a > fairly windy place although I'm not on the coast, but 20 km inland. I > did > look in the Crest archives but I didn't hit upon anything that seemed > to > address this question (I'll admit that I'm never sure if I really get > what > I'm searching for). > > Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. > Bye for now. Pierre. > > > pierremasson@geocities.com > Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 11 17:27:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08258 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27264 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19884; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:16:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05588 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:16:31 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id R\Y12093; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:18:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: kanderson@ase.org, SEBodzin@lbl.gov, sei@solarenergy.org, hegeman@unep.frw.uva.nl, cleantx@aol.com, glark@juno.com, ebn@ebuild.com, krabago@edf.org, sloan@vera.com, r1346@aol.com, webmaster@abuildnet.com, rclark16@juno.com, johnloch@mtt.com, realgood@realgoods.com, bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, bspeyer@texas-one.org Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:50:18 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Home Show Message-ID: <19971011.162503.3630.3.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,10-11,16-17,20-21,30-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 This rainy weekend is the weekend for the House Beautiful Show at the AlamoDome in San Antonio, Texas. Went to see the sights yesterday as I usually do. I justify this to myself as market research. If anything, this show is an indicator of the state of the building industry in South Texas. The show this year was dominated by multiple booths for security companies, water conditioning companies and various cleaning products. Gee, now that I reflect, it sort of looked like the Home Shopping Network on TV. I did count five builders who's name I actually recognized. One of these was a (so-called) builder of mobile homes. No electricians, no plumbers, no masons, few roofers, some flooring (?). It seemed to me, very few vendors who's products or services could be described as renewable or sustainable. I should note possible exceptions for the booths of Energrid (styrofoam-cinder blocks?), SolaTube, and Skylights over Texas. Maybe the landscapers? To the show's credit it was populated mostly by small businesses. But I wonder if this is because the region's substantial architects, builders, contractors and associated businesses (SBT) recognize that this show and it's sister show in the Spring does not return business activity for the expense? An empty 10 X 10 booth now costs around $1000.00 for a 2 1/2 day event. The show then charges attendees (customers) for parking and attendance. This show and few of it's participants seem to be conscious of the need and the economic opportunity for green sustainable products and services. Would someone dial 911 and send the "Green EMS" to South Texas please? Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 12 12:20:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11097 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16169 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28288; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:10:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA21170 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:10:30 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA05663 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971012121317_1300309031@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 Hi Chris, I have three things to add from my own experience with windows: 1) I do not like seal failure on insulated glass. The SIGMA numbers from 1995 indicate an average failure rate after 15 years of around 5% for CBA rated units and 13% for C and CB units. (The rate seems to be heavily influenced by the San Francisco Bay area). My own experience in the northeast is similar to these figures 5% to 10%. I've used Anderson (which had an essentially zero failure rate back in the welded edge glass days - although I had some of the ones that turned blue), Weathershield, Eagle, Hurd, Pella (whose air - vented units survive transient fog), Hobeka and a bunch of others whose names I no longer remember and they all had failures within 10 years. The glazing, sash and frame elements of a window last decades longer than that. I've restored or reused windows that were 50 or 60 years old. I think I'm going to take another look at air vented windows. 2) Some IG units are far harder to replace than others. Sometimes the sash and associated components that actually hold the glass are designed so that it is difficult or impossible to replace the IG unit without modifying the sash or replacing it entirely. I'd ask about the ease of replacement. 3) A warranty is of no value if the manufacturer is out of business. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 12 19:01:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25893 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA21855 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02526; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29945 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:51:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA29941 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p180.ts1.diac.com (p180.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.180]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02446 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:00:40 GMT Received: by p180.ts1.diac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD730.FCD12BE0@p180.ts1.diac.com>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:05:05 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD730.FCD12BE0@p180.ts1.diac.com> From: Gary Dean Gray To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V1 #409 Am i unsubscribed? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:04:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello is anyone there? ---------- From: greenbuilding-digest[SMTP:owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 5:40 PM To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: greenbuilding-digest V1 #409 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgYXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ADABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAE0AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9yZwBTTVRQAGdyZWVuYnVpbGRpbmdAY3Jlc3Qu b3JnAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAYAAAAZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZ0BjcmVz dC5vcmcAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAGgAAACdncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9y ZycAAAACAQswAQAAAB0AAABTTVRQOkdSRUVOQlVJTERJTkdAQ1JFU1QuT1JHAAAAAAMAADkAAAAA CwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADZjsBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90 ZQAxCAEEgAEANAAAAFJFOiBncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nLWRpZ2VzdCBWMSAjNDA5IEFtIGkgdW5zdWJz Y3JpYmVkPwBDEQEFgAMADgAAAM0HCgAMABEABAA5AAAAOAEBIIADAA4AAADNBwoADAARAAIAEQAA AA4BAQmAAQAhAAAARUJFQTk2ODIyMzQzRDExMUEwMUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA0AYBA5AGAAADAAAS AAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAgMZGQmPXvAEeAHAAAQAAADQA AABSRTogZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZy1kaWdlc3QgVjEgIzQwOSBBbSBpIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlZD8AAgFx AAEAAAAWAAAAAbzXY0I/gpbq7EMjEdGgHERFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8M AQAAAA8AAABnZ3JheUBkaWFjLmNvbQAAAwAGEIrhMfoDAAcQwwAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFTExP SVNBTllPTkVUSEVSRT8tLS0tLS0tLS0tRlJPTTpHUkVFTkJVSUxESU5HLURJR0VTVFNNVFA6T1dO RVItR1JFRU5CVUlMRElORy1ESUdFU1RAQ1JFU1RPUkdTRU5UOlcAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABuAQAAagEA AEEDAABMWkZ1P0B0dv8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFGFC/JjAEAg SGVsFaAqIAQAIABweQIgZSBkdGgEkGU/CoUKi2wQaTE4MALRaS0xPDQ0DfAM0B4zC1kxNtcKoANg E9BjBUAtIFcKh9cfCwwwH9ZGA2E6IV4f1qUMgiAJw2J1AxBkC4AUZy0loGcHkHRbU0BNVFA6b3cb wHK2LSUfJiFABQAmIS4FsPxnXSD/Ig0GYAIwIz8kSwZXCYAbwHNkYXksJCBPICBvYgSQIDACOC2w MTk5NyA1YjoeUCBQTSkPIg1Ufm8rTyRPJ18oZy9fKh51PGJqIBExfzKPJV4gVjUa0CMeUDkcXx1j MzZ/HtcaRR/WO788zRy2FTEAAUEAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMCA96uJi17wBQAAIMCA9 6uJi17wBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACsuQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 07:25:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA28935 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA21991 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09737; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:13:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13418 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA18941 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013071630_-1562754413@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: TBren46501@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 Terry, Thanks for the contributions! And I wholeheartedly agree with the IG issues. I am tired of "'splaining" about IG failures.... that is ONE of the reasons I focus so heavily on the IG warranty and the manufacturer staying in business! Will certainly add your comments and thoughts to the doc. Question: How can you tell a consumer what to look for in sash design when they are buying a window? Kinda hard to say "look for glass that is easy to replace" when in the same breath you are saying "look for glass that will last a long time/or will never HAVE to replace".... Any thoughts? Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:16:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11826 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00141 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14199; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:59:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20055 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:59:49 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA22311; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013120102_1376353345@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:03 AM, you wrote: <> Hi John, Always enjoy your posts. They get me cooking. I am going to take another look at air vented windows. I used them years ago in combination with running the bulding slighty negative in heating climates. Sometimes I used sliding glass door replacement panels (two layers, air fill, double sealed edge) with an air vented single glazing on the exterior. In that way, the edge sealed unit is exposed to less temperature extremes across the panel. I think I may see how they've faired over the years. Other times, I reglazed single pane prime windows with hardcoat low-e and added a storm. I recently modeled a number of configurations for a company that manufactures hardwood 9 over 6 double hung windows with brass fittings and pulley counter weights for the restoration community. They had been producing true divided lite windows with tiny sealed edge units because it was being speced by architects. They were interested in alternatives that would perform as well without using sealed edge units (they wanted to avoid the hassle and material weight of installing sealed edge units in a divided lite window and to avoid the inevitable fog problems of sealed edge units). Hard coat low-e with a storm gave them an overall U-value of 0.39 - substantially better than the sealed edge - divided lite units because of the fantastic edge loss on the little sealed units. I plan to do some modeling of other air vented units to see how good a perfomer we can get. I'd be interested in any ideas the group has on getting high thermal performance out of air vented windows. I'll probably dig out my old "dynamic window" papers that Yuil Gren wrote in the 80's. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:23:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11928 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02095 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14392; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA20383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA20379 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA15481 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013120739_1966553156@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: insulated concrete forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 Hi, Although I've tried lots of new stuff in buildings, I've never used any of the styrene foam concrete forms that stay in place after the concrete is poured and provide an insulated concrete wall. I am interested in the experience people have had with these systems, above and below grade. I'm interested in comparative costs, the important things to do and avoid when using them, moisture dynamics, insect protection and finishing details for interior and exterior. Anything you have to say, I want to hear, and will be grateful. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:36:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12165 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21826 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13655; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19135 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA22068; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:32:54 -0700 Message-ID: <34423EBD.6293F893@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:31:09 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 Returning to an old thread I would agree with Chris Mathis that the world could probably survive without an R-20 window. It would probably be useful in the sense that we could forego any considerations of placement and function in a whole house design but then we would be that much further removed from knowing where we fit in the order of things. All of Chris's concerns seem relevant and I would add my own basic concern that advancements in insulative properties would not address the limitations of the basic design i.e.. edge seal and seal failure. Terry just gave some statistics on failure rates from 1995 on 15 year usage. I was in a 25 year old house in the northeast recently that had 8 of 30 units fail. An attached 15 year old sunroom will Pella windows had 3 of 15 units fail. Generally when units begin to fail the owner will opt for either total replacement of the glass in all units (this is what seems the most cost effective approach if there is a fear of all the units failing)or (when looking at the cost and considering the 'age' of the windows) will often replace the entire units. Replacement of glass alone can easily run $10-15,000 which in the worst case scenario is $1000 per year of usage (not a figure you would want to use in calculating energy savings) Another aspect of glass usage is the difficulty of recycling (i.e. separating) glass from sealed units. Aside from the glass units themselves if you look at most of the basic designs for setting and sealing the glass into the units you will find some component that in failing will compromise the life of the glass - most commonly the setting blocks or exterior seal. Ironically the units in which the glass is easiest to replace lack a good exterior seal. My ideal window is one whose real cost justifies its energy savings. A lot of the market usage of technological innovations seems dedicated more to attracting consumers than benefiting the environment. Like Terry said I think I'm going to take another look at air vented designs. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 13:10:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13962 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16250 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19318; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA22105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:00:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22101 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts7p10.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA14740; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:03:12 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971013170527.006a5b98@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:05:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Air Vented Windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 Regarding the 'best' window thread, I am not familiar with air vented windows and would appreciate more information; several of you have said you were going to look into these some more, but please let us know what you have about them at this time. thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 16:06:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15707 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15985 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA26865; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28482; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:49:48 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA21277; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013155113_338817711@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: more on R-20 windows and glazing systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 For a while there I thought the post on R-20 windows was either (a) offensive, so no one responded, or (b) stupid, so no one responded, or (c) obvious, so no one responded or (d) lost to the computer netherworld, so no one responded..... Glad to see the mummy has arisen.... and to that end, about those IG seal failues.... Does anyone (other than a few of us "glazing" zealots) have the least bit of concern about the SIGMA data showing about 10+ percent IG unit failure after 10 years? Have I missed something? Are there THOUSANDS of companies out there making MILLIONS of dollars replacing these things and they don't want anyone to know the size of the problem? Is this fact reflected in the IG unit warranties? The more data I see on IG performance, the more I am concerned about whole house performance, condensation, comfort, view and a whole RAFT of related issues. ANYBODY got any more data? Is this 10% to 15% a California problem, or nationwide? or worldwide? IF so, has it been correlated to design? Number and type of seal? Spacer type? Location of setting blocks? Thermal phenomenon? Water intrusion in the frame? datadatadatadatadata...... Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 21:07:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA21936 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11150 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04282; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07517 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:55:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07402; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:53:30 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA27872; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013205227_490005311@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window warranties, IG failures and tire tread... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 "Help! I fallen into a performance rut and can't get out!" ....or so it seems as I try to figure out the disconnect between "claimed warranty life" and "real world IG failure data". The tires that I buy claim to be "50,000 mile warranty tires"... and they are pretty d*@# important to my highway safety and fuel economy (window/glass performance).... Now I know the roads in my area (climate) are pretty rough (snow, ice, rain, sun) and the mountains and valleys (peak loads) impact my actual fuel economy (heating and cooling savings/costs) as well as how often I use my brakes (powered) or coast (economizers, venting).... So WHAT THE HECK if so hard about getting a decent warranty on my windows/glass? I'm NOT a "tire expert" but I KNOW what PERFORMANCE to EXPECT. But I have to become an expert at decifering the exclusions, provisions, disclaimers and prorations on window warranties? GIVE ME A BREAK.... End of Rant. Sorry for the "tire-ade." (and the poor pun...) Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 23:37:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA01095 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22590 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA06438; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:26:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12613 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA41102 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:29:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199710140329.WAA41102@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: window longevity Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 21:38:10 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 A few thoughts on the window thread: I think a high R value window will be well worth the R&D investment. In heating climates the majority of seal failures in IG are directly related to interior condensation. High R value windows will be less likely to condensate in extreme weather. Choose windows that are easily reglazeable. Many good wood sash windows have removeable glazing stops on the inside which can be carefully cut out with a razor knife and re-installed after the glass is replaced. Many less expensive manufacturers require that the whole sash be thrown out and replaced when the glass is broke or the seal has failed. Beef up the manufacturer's glazing job. I routinely "toe bead" around the perimeter of the glass (where it meets the sash) with GE silicone caulk to further protect the butyl glazing material. This is a method and material approved by Pella. Also be sure to properly paint ALL wood- including the edges of the sash- so that the metal channel is not exposed to wick-ed moisture. An ounce of prevention... Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 08:26:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06467 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02698 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11311; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20905 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:15:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20900 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm2a20.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.180]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26410; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:18:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710140329.WAA41102@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: window longevity Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 A few thoughts on the window durability thread: Terry mentioned the old Andersen windows that had welded-glass-edge insulated glass units (IGUs). I feel that the industry lost a great deal when PPG and LOF abandonded that technology. A few years ago I did some work for a guy who was considering purchasing the last working welded-glass-edge IGU factory--one in Ohio owned by LOF--and that gave me some insight into the advantages of that technology. The basic idea was (is) that instead of relying on organic seals between two layers of glass and the metal spacer, the edges of the glass are "welded" together. This seal is much tighter and less prone to failure--as Terry and others who have worked with 30- or 40-year old Andersen windows with this type of IGU can attest. They are also much better at containing the low-conductivity gas fill. The problem with welded-glass-edge IGUs came about when Andersen decided it wanted to go to a thicker air space to provide improved energy performance. Cardinal did that quite easily with their IGUs and took market share away from PPG and LOF. These two companies invested millions trying to make welded-glass-edge windows work with thicker spacings. At the end, LOF was using their Energy Advantage low-e glass and putting carbon dioxide in the IGUs (which is similar to argon in energy performance but not used with organic seals because it is difficult to contain). The problem was that the thicker the space, the greater the forces on the IGU edges when large differences in temperature occur across the window. Unacceptable edge failures occurred when they went to a 1/2" or 5/8" spacing to match Andersen's requirements. The irony to this long-winded story is that an ideal solution might have been to go back to a 1/4" spacing, which worked very well for decades, and put krypton in the space. With krypton the ideal spacing is much narrower than it is for air or argon, and the energy performance is far better than the other gases used. The person I helped write a business plan for ended up getting cold feet, and as far as I know, the last welded-glass-edge factory was torn down. This was a real loss both for the window industry, which lost a product they had been able to really stand behind, and for the building industry, which lost a product we could depend on. Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 12:04:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08954 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29131 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14601; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26545 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:44:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26539 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27240 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:47:50 -0400 Message-id: <1046253@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 14 Oct 97 11:52:46 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Seeking EEBA roommate To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 I will be at the EEBA conference in Denver and am looking for a roommate to share hotel room costs. I'll be there the nights of the 4th through the 8th, as I am there for a pre-conference workshop, and need to stay over Sat. night. May stay in Boulder on Sat. night instead. Please let me know ASAP since the room rate is guaranteed only through the 20th. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 12:07:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09003 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00086 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14680; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26708 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27466 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:52:27 -0400 Message-id: <1046291@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 14 Oct 97 11:57:24 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Trip info To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 Hello all - Before I left on my trip, I asked for recommendations of places to go see. I got quite a number of responses, thank you all. Several people asked to have a "report" when i got back. I don't have that, but I wrote 5 "travelogues" which I sent to family and friends that include some discussion of "green" projects I visited. You'll need to wade through the other personal stuff, however. Total of 5 docs is about 58K. Let me know if you want this, and I'll send them out. I'd prefer to accumulate a list and then send once in about a week's time. It's OK if no one is interested! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 18:30:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20211 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02018 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21606; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA09149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:13:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA09143 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a80e2.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.128.226]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28878 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710142216.PAA28878@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: Re: GBlist: insulated concrete forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 Terry, I was very skeptical at first of such a "New Wheel". I have been in concrete construction all my life. We used the old method of plywood forms (9-ply) and diesel for form release agent. Then along came these forms to our area, We have not used the "old" method since. There's probably $30,000 worth of plywood forms now untouched since then. So much less labor, materials. Costs of EPS block above or below grade varies of course with each job. But an average we have seen has been between $8-12.00 per square foot of wall. Complexity of design makes price go up. Square basements run (30'x40') about $8.00 sq.ft. This is block, labor, materials, (concrete,rebar,fasteners,scaffolding,door& window bucks,pumps,bracing etc.) CMU block runs in this area at $6.50 square foot and up. Split face is $7.50 sq.ft. All joints struck. Poured walls vary also. Under 8' high (Plywood size) start around $7.90 sq. ft. Tall walls (over 8') $9.00 sq.ft. If no offsets in wall and four corners. Comparitive costs are similar but the big difference is YOU ARE ALREADY INSULATED. Structural, insulated, poured solid concrete wall in ONE step. Things to avoid: Really wet concrete! pouring must be done around a 4-6" slump maximum. Avoid any petrolium based products, don't apply those kind of water proofing, or for adhesives of drywall, or adhesives of the block. ( we use expanding foam adhesives) Attaching drywall or siding, use screws. Do not have to be self tapping. Our product has steel furring strips to attach to.( every one foot) Important to do's: Brace the forms like it says in the manual, use a foam adhesive(enerfoam), string line the walls for straight BEFORE you pour concrete in them! Never accept concrete that's too wet. Send it back. I have had to only do that twice now in 15 years. So unlikely you'll run into that. Start out on a FLAT AND LEVEL AND SQUARE FOUNDATION, A MUST. If the slab or footings are not right you'll chase the problems to the roof. We use a RUB_R_WALL foundation waterproofer and I think it is the most green of any waterproofing products. We do not have any insect problems (subterrain termites) here in this area. They do make a flashing insert to put in the block above the grade level of back fill. The finish materials typically are : Interior.. drywall screwed to the block, or paneling screwed to the block, or plaster applied to the block. The first two can be put on with adhesives ( i prefer a more positive connection) Exterior...Any exterior product you'd like can be applied.EIFS stucco, traditional stucco, brick, stone, cultures stone, lap siding, panel material, hardi plank, vinyl sidings, etc.... Once completed, the home looks like a regular home. Except for the deep window sills. Hope this info will help you or be of use to you. Darrin >Hi, > >Although I've tried lots of new stuff in buildings, I've never used any of >the styrene foam concrete forms that stay in place after the concrete is >poured and provide an insulated concrete wall. I am interested in the >experience people have had with these systems, above and below grade. I'm >interested in comparative costs, the important things to do and avoid when >using them, moisture dynamics, insect protection and finishing details for >interior and exterior. Anything you have to say, I want to hear, and will be >grateful. - Terry >______________________________________________________________________ Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 20:14:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26049 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02132 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23204; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:59:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11691 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Home.gte.net (tpm000070.gte.net [207.175.0.70]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id TAA14593; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:02:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710150002.TAA14593@smtp.gte.net> From: "Solargrl" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: PV in asia? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:02:06 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 I'm forwarding this inquiry to my fellow greenbuilders. Anyone have an answer for this gentleman? If so, I'd appreciate it if you could email him directly at aarowe@cyberdream.co.uk. Thanks. ---------- > From: aarowe > To: solargrl@gte.net > Subject: asia? > Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 4:42 AM > > hi, do you know where might supply photovoltaic cells in Asia?. A friend > of mine wants to supply light/domestic power to townships in South > Africa, and he thought the cells might be cheaper out there but he is > having trouble finding a supplier. Any ideas? > many thanks for any help(sorry if i'm a bit abrupt) > cheers ewen fortune SolarGirl's GreenPages: http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 08:34:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA07094 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21171 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01513; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26145 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:18:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA06308 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015082041_255636327@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: window longevity Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 In a message dated 10/14/97 8:20:54 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Alex, First, thanks for the info on the current status of weld-edge glass panels. I also lamented the loss. I betcha Anderson shied away from the refridgerant gas fills at first because of the experience they had in the sixties with some CFC turning blue in the welded-edge units. I think they were trying to get better r-value to compete with the newer sealed edge units. Something went wrong (I don't know what the chemistry was) and some of the units took on a blue tint. I am also in favor of welded edge glasswith Krypton fill. It not only repells wavy arrows, but repells Superman, too. Think I'll crunch some numbers on it. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 09:04:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07330 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA29188 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02038; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:51:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26867 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA15121 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015085255_-1394800263@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: more on R-20 windows and glazing systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 In a message dated 10/13/97 3:56:30 PM, you wrote: <> Well, yes, I have been concerned not only about the SIGMA data, but about my own data for years. For some reason (no doubt something to do with an old family rule that a few sessions with a bioenergetic therapist and a twelve step program could ferret out), a window edge seal failing after 7 to 10 years, really pisses me off. However, the SIGMA data with the really numerous failures is for C and CB units. If you produce units with this level of seal performance, you can't be a SIGMA member. In order to be a SIGMA member, you must produce units that test to the CBA level, which in the SIGMA studies ahve a 4.8% failure rate after 15 years. The bulk of those failures are in San Francisco (27 out of 36 failures), which apparently harbors a disturbance in the force that results in some kind of edge seal hell-hole. Perhaps Dariush has some insight into the San Francisco failures? Lastly, I am continually surprised and delighted by the ebb and flow of interest on this list. I posted the question of edge seals last spring and the thread was entirely different. I want to keep working on windows (although I perfer Macs) with folks on this list. - terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 09:47:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07683 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11301 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02615; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:32:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout29.mail.aol.com (emout29.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27896 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout29.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA17129; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015092719_322799370@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Vented Windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 In a message dated 10/13/97 3:33:37 PM, you wrote: <> Saceie, An air vented window is a window with two or more layers that has air between the panes and has some small air leaks at the edges. So for example, a single glazed window with a storm window is an air vented window. Pella makes air vented and sealed edge windows. The air vented Pellas have little holes leading from the air gap between two layers of glass to the outside. There used to be, and may well still be a Canadian window manufacturer who made air vented windows designed to provide make-up air for exhaust only ventilation in heating climates which preheated the incoming air with the energy moving out through the window by conduction and radiation (an elegant idea called the dynamic window by the Canadians and the Solar staircase by Norm Saunders). There a re a few important things about air vented windows. 1) Sometimes they fog up. 2) Sometimes stuff gets between the layers (particles and arthropods mostly) 1) Fogging happens when the dewpoint is reached inside the window. This happens for a few different reasons. First, if warm air enters the gap between the panes moving from the warm air mass towards the cool air mass, the air is cooling as it passes through the window, increasing the likelyhood of condensation. The solutions: plan the air pressure relationship between the inside of your house and the outside so that air moves from the cold air mass towards the warmer air mass, drying out the window interior and air vent the window to the colder side. What this comes down to in practice is: for heating climates - depressurize the house (with all due respect to backdrafting, spillage and other running negative issues) and air vent to the outside (e.g tight prime window, leaky storm) and you won't have chronic condensation between the panes. (You can see that observation of condesation on windows can tell you a lot about whether the prime window or the storm is leaky or tight) for cooling climates - pressurize air conditioned houses and air vent to the inside (e.g. leaky prime, tight storm). Truthfully, I have no field experience with air vented windows in a primarily cooling climate. The buildings I've worked on in the south were mostly single glazed windows, in the Gulf coast, often those louvered jobs, and sometimes sealed edge. Any Gulf coasters care to join in? Another reason that condensation occurs in the gap is if the window and storm are leaky enough for moisture to enter because of air pressure or partial water vapor pressure differences , but tight enough so moisture that migrates in during the day has trouble getting back out at night when the glazing cools off. Then the dewpoint is reached and the window fogs. Pella had a lot of problems with this because the air vent hole size they used says "put larvae and host here" to some of the mud-dauber species of wasp. I found that changing the hole size changes that, and so did Pella. (Wasps have a single gangleon for a brain, so it is kinda hard for them to change their act (course I have a big brain and suffer from the same problem)). You can also just go clean the hole out with a nail when the window fogs. 2) Lastly, dirst, dust and bugs between the panes. Guess the holes are too big. Keep the vents small, or covered with filter fabric, and make it easy to open the gap and clean them is my best advice. The question I'm intersted in now is comparing the life cycle energy and environmental costs of sealed edge windows to those of air vented windows. I do not actually have an idea of whether there is a clear path or not, but the first order stuff is close enough that I want to explore it. Hope this helps. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 11:19:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08849 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12486 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04478; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00581 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA08041; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:02:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3444DA91.AFDFEAAF@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:00:33 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Vented Windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 I had this valuable little piece of research by Cameron Duncan filed away for a rainy day, hope he doesn't mind my reposting it here - I had thought of custom manuf. a similar window for our own purposes but felt a little hesitant. I was more interested in single pane interior glazing with passive air flow to the interior i.e. that the windows would not be mechanically vented but that the building itself would be on continuous exhaust. The obvious concern is condensation which could be manually controlled by adding a top exterior vent and making the interior vent closable or I thought it might be possible to minimize condensation problems by creating a proportionally smaller interior bottom vent or scoop to slightly warm incoming air. I had also thought that it would not be difficult to reverse the process for minimizing heat gain by pressurizing the building from an alternate air source. I'm still interested in testing a practical application and was hoping to be able to do something different for our next project. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Willmar Windows: Willmar windows prepared some prototype windows, test marketed them in the Montreal area, and poor sales led to their demise. Solplan Review claimed "...the dynamic window could be important for multifamily ventilation in milder climates...Combining the window with the ventilation systems seems like an idea that should be pursued." (Re: "What Ever Happened To...Dynamic Windows," R. Kadulski, Solplan Review, (No. ) p. 7, April/May 1994.) I just sent them a fax to see what I can find out about their project. Perhaps more on that later. References: Canadian Windows and Doors Assn. (613) 233-6205 Willmar Windows 485 Watt St. Winnipeg, MN R2L 2A5 Phone: (204) 668-8230 Fax: (204) 663-1072 ...... Research: I also found that information describing research conducted in Scandanavian countries (Finland, Norway) an Canada on "Supply-Air windows" (summary of Canadian info. below): "...studies in Finland have shown the possibility of such supply-air windowsÉ providing ventilation air sufficiently preheated to recover most of the heat transfer through the window. A Norwegian study has shown that a double-pane, supply-air window could be built with a U value of 0.5 W/m2.K (R-10)." NRC of CanadaÉs IRC testing: Specs: 6.4mm interpane airspace, airtight, double-glazed window with single-pane glazing 66mm outside other assembly. 3 25mm frame holes (584mm wide section) in bottom of single-pane and top of double-pane assembly (top holes lined with rigid conduit) Fans used to extract air at 11.5 L/s (~0.5 ACH) Results: Window air temp rise ~ 50% of DT (44% nighttime, 58% daytime due to solar heating effect) Ventilation air temp rise ~ 50% to heat it to room temp (contributes to overheating on sunny days) Heat flow of inner panes lost to outside ~ 20% of std. triple-glazed window (most of the heat was recovered through the air flow) Supply-air window U-Value: 0.45 W/m2.K Energy consumption comparison: supply-air window 25% less than double-paned window control 20% est. less than triple-paned window Considerations: Inside pane temp is lowered (thermal comfort & condensation issue) Window must be integrated into the ventilation system Maintenance/cleaning issues (Re: "Thermal Performance of a Supply-Air Window Tested," S. A. Barakat (Instutute of Research in Construction, National Research Council of Canada), Solar Today, (2:1) pp. 10-11, January/February 1988.) ...... Integral Window Ventilating System/Device manufacturers: BTW, does anyone know any Integral Window Ventilating System/Device manufacturers, such as trickle ventilators, other than Titon Inc.? (Titon Inc., P. O. Box 6164, South Bend, IN 466660, (219) 271-9699: Glazed-in, Slot, & Surface Mounted) Cameron Duncan (800) 363-3732 (US) (703) 287-8391 (Intl) cameron.duncan@nciicn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 11:46:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09154 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20845 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05037; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:29:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01417; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:28:33 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA23138; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015111821_-1227167301@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More on IG seal failures... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 I did some snooping and learned a bit about welded glass and IG seal failure history. I must say I don't feel much better about the IG seal failure risk that seems to be out there among the hundreds of IG "fabricators". (Conversely, I am increasingly MORE confident about the checks and balances the big guys have put into their IG unit production.... a confidence that looks to be reflected in their IG warranties.) Welded glass. A Mechanical Solution. A Mechanical Problem. Welded glass edges offered a reliable seal on: 1) small units 2) air spaces around .25 inches. Then we wanted to improve energy efficiency. Low-e coatings (metals) were incompatible with the welding process. Also, the process in its infancy was limited to rectangles. Also couldn't put gas fills in because of process limitations. (Yes, this is the short version.) For small windows the seal lasted a long time. Why? The FORCES were smaller on the MECHANICAL connection. Glass, as a mechanical connection, DOES NOT like to move. But for some reason, people wanted bigger windows..... guess what happens? Wind induced forces, movement of the outboard lite versus the NON-movement of the inboard lite, barometric pressure, etc. all conspired to break A LOT of welded glass. The most telling example of this was the John Hancock Tower in Boston.... raining glass shards.... (we'll talk about THIS horror story in Denver) What about using tempered glass? Didn't work. Couldn't weld it. So, Can't make it big, can't make shapes, can't use low-e coatings, can't gas fill it, can't .... Well, you get the picture... May it rest in peace.... or be the subject for some new innovation that cures all the previous ills.... And about these air vented windows, WAIT before you jump into the pond.... 1) Do I have to give up my low-e coatings? But I LIKE those warmer surface temperatures in the winter and the cooler surfaces in the summer. I like the energy savings in both summer and winter. 2) Do I have to give up gas filling? More comfort and energy savings... 3) What do you mean that bugs and dirt get inside? I like my view and the ABSENCE of interior condensation. 4) Are there really cost tradeoffs and savings? Show me/us the data... If these are the costs of going to air venting, I think I'll stick with the organic seals offered by a reputable manufacturer and replace them in 10, 20 or 30 years.... or whenever they fail. I look at the warranty while I'm sitting next to my warm low-e, gas filled, clear, no interior condensation window in the winter. Or maybe I'll read the warranty while sitting next to my cooler, low-e, gas filled, clear window in the summer..... Chris Mathis MCSquared "In God We Trust. The rest bring data." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 13:09:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10381 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17644 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06687; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:49:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04055 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts9p14.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA00673; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:52:48 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971015165504.006ce6b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:55:04 -0500 To: RCMathis1@aol.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist:window warantees Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id NAA10381 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 Regarding the very interesting window thread and the admonition to check the warranty, check the warranty--check the--; when you have to do some replacing 10 or 15 years down the road, as has been pointed out to me, be sure to find out exactly what must be replaced when the unit/seal fails--it may be the entire sash. On an entirely different subject, I am about to do a frost protected shallow foundation. These are not allowed where code requirements rule here in Kansas but fortunately there is no rule in the county in which I am building. But I have the NAHB specs for direction. I would like to know what experience there is out there for this relatively new way of handling cold weather problems—I think I’ve read most of the articles on the subject. I plan to double the minimal insulation requirements for my area under the assumption it will more than double my money so to speak. Because I am building on a slope I have to bring in a lot of fill to raise the lower end. For that I am thinking of using a combination of rock topped with sand. Can the latter be used for a heat sink where a heat sink is useful? Have any of you had bad experiences with frost protected shallow foundations? I plan to do a monolithic pour by the way. Thanks in advance, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 15:38:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13637 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06208 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10370; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09311 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12627 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:35 -0400 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCD970.9D3EBBB0@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: Chlorpyrifos fire Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 The following message was posted on another list but I thought it might be of interest of some on this list. The author of it is asking for asking for feedback. Perhaps you can help. >>From: Albert Donnay >>Subject: Chlorpyrifos Fire: Update >>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:49:38 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>The chlorpyrifos fire that burned for 30 hours in Birmingham last Thursday >>(October 2, I had the date wrong in my first post) is now estimated to >>have burned 4,000 gallons of chlorpyrifos in a 40% concentrate (that's >>VERY concentrated; many applications use just 0.5%). It was actually the >>second fire there in the last few years. The earlier fire burned only >>paper, however, and did not reach the pesticide stores. >> >>There was some press coverage in the Birmingham News on Monday quoting me >>and EPA's Dr. Blondell recommending medical monitoring and followup of the >>firefighters. This led the fire chief to call both of us to defend his >>department's conduct during the fire and since, including the decision not >>to test anyone, which he said was supported by both his health department >>and Univ. of AL experts. He also said some firefighters were provided >>with self contained breathing appartus after the fire spread to the >>chlorpyrifos area, but these went only to the minority who were in the "A >>Zone" closest to the chlorpyrifos (the entire warehouse covered several >>blocks) and they are no longer being worn by those involved in the >>cleanup. >> >>Fortunately, Birmingham officials soon changed their minds about the value >>of medical followup, and they now offer both cholinesterase testing and a >>basic symptom questionnaire, but only to those who come forward with >>symptoms and request medical attention. (So far, this has been requested >>by just 2 firefighters and about 15 others.) No data from these tests >>have been released. >> >>Dow officials arrived on the scene for the first time on Oct 9--seven days >>after the fire started--to assist local authorities. The city is now >>deciding what to do about the warehouse's flooded basement. It is filled >>to the brim with an estimated 1/2 million gallons of water and >>chlorpyrifos at an incredible 150,000 ug/L. The city talks of throwing >>activated charcoal into this pool to capture some of the chlorpyrifos and >>then releasing the water to the sanitary sewer... >> >>Anybody have any better ideas? >> >>How many gallons drained into local waterways is not known, but >>chlorpyrifos levels along the 10 mile fish kill range from >>8,500 to 3,500 ug/L. >> >>This is all flowing into a lake that now also shows signs of a massive >>kill. Just for comparison, note the max. allowable limits for >>chlorpyrifos in open waters (adopted by the states of AR, HI, CO, VT and >>OK to protect aquatic life): >> >>0.041 ug/L for chronic exposures (4 day average) and >>0.083 ug/L for acute exposures (1 hour average). >> >>VT is the only state that also has a standard for chlorpyrifos in drinking >>water which, ironically, is much higher -- 21 ug/L. >> >>Meterologists say the fallout from the smoke plume probably concentrated >>about 17 miles to the west of the city, but no soil contamination data >>have been released. >> >> >>-- Albert Donnay, MHS >>Exec. Director, MCS Referral & Resources, Inc. >>508 Westgate Road, Baltimore MD 21229-2343 >>410-362-6400, fax 362-6401, donnaya@rtk.net james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 11:13:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25298 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10421 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26752; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:01:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05116 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA28362; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016084820_-1763584565@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: pkaluza@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Re: Reply: CO list: Benzene in homes with attached garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 In a message dated 10/15/97 4:15:27 PM, you wrote: << thus encouraging builders to better seal between the house and garage. The concensus was to include the garage volume in the air leakage test. I think we may want to revisit some of this as these IAQ issues continue to point at the garage.>> Hi, I'd try to do a good job of isolating the house from the garage first and then I'd seal the garage from the outside. If the garage is fairly well sealed, you may need to ventilate it mechanically because there are often fairly strong contaminant sources in the garage. I'd also use a fan door to estimate the leakage between the garage and house and the garage and outside. This can be done fairly simply using series leakage analysis and making an assumption about the flow exponent - described by Blasnik and Fitzgerald in their advanced blower door articles. If you want the equations, give a holler. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 12:21:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26095 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01432 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28290; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07506 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id M]P23825; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Garages Message-ID: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9,11-12,14-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 Hi, I read the recent posting re: garages and it reminded me of a friend of mine who has asked me for help on a problem in her home affecting her health. Her 10-year old home here in S. Florida was built with the air handler in the garage. Since buying the house she has experienced burning eyes and some breathing discomfort. Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been corrected. She is still concerned that fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be being drawn into the a/c system. Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be appreciated. I particularly would like to hear from John Bower. Sincerely, Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 12:58:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26447 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12253 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29297; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09035 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:48:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail12.digital.com (mail12.digital.com [192.208.46.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09031 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us7rmc.bb.dec.com (us7rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.29]) by mail12.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id MAA13067; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ricks.enet by us7rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA08432; Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:38:53 -0400 Message-Id: <9710161638.AA08432@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from ricks.enet; by us7rmc.enet; Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:43:40 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:43:40 EDT From: He who toys with the most dies wins To: environs.com@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Apparently-To: greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com Subject: RE: GBlist: Garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 The magazine, "This Old House" had an article detailing a couple case studies of CO poisoning that were the result of attached garages. I bought it a month or so ago so it probably isn't the current issue. In one case they paid for fixing the problem to see what it would cost, and ended up with an exhaust fan in the garage that cost a lot to install. /carl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 20:16:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02292 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24200 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07702; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22552 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA11837 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016200529_-1260606747@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Foundations and Frost Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 Sacie, re: your frost protected shallow foudation, I built part of my own home in Canada with this technique about 12 years ago on well drained soil with no apparent frost heave problems. In my case I placed extruded foamboard at a 45 degree angle down and away from the slab ( in a trench which was subsequently backfilled). It helps to understand the nature of isotherms in the soil and how this type of insulating litterly bends these lines up to protect the foundation. By placing the insulation at an angle you have less digging and need less insulation to do the equivalent job of a vertical application. (I assume you may already know this but others may want a little more long winded an explanation.) It is of course important to not leave any portion of the concrete exposed to the cold. Hope this helps. Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 20:39:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02492 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29420 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08012; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23136 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.61 (pm1-29.hoosier.net [206.106.67.61]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA31392 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:28:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3446B08A.9B2@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:25:49 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: garages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 I would guess that the air in any attached garage would communicate with the air in the living space to some extent (unless special measures were taked to isolate the house and garage pressurewise). If there are leaks in the return ducts then there could be a LOT of communication whenever the air handler is running. Therefore, whatever is stored in the garage is also inadvertantly a part of the living space. One study found benzene emissions from gasoline-fueled vehicles parked in residential garages to be two orders of magnitude higher than outdoor levels. Add to that CO, pesticides, and whatever elso is stored in the garage and you could easily have a nasty soup. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 23:12:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03637 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA02876 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10175; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:45:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27132 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip20.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.39]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA150 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:56:54 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971016225028.007276cc@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:50:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages In-Reply-To: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 Couldn't resist the famous story on Adolf Hitler's garage. In Albert Speer's memoirs, he (as an architect) went to great lengths to poo-poo fearless leader's bad sense of design. Seems that at the retreat designed by Hitler hisself, the garage was immediately below the living room used for extended meetings. At every meeting, it didn't take long for the attendees to be overwhelmed by the benzene fumes... but they were loathe to complain (for obvious reasons). >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a cute covered walkway. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 00:17:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04122 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA17464 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11298; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28677 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1b-d157.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.157]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23053 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710170410.VAA23053@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foundations and Frost Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 At 20:06 97-10-16 -0400, you wrote: >Sacie, re: your frost protected shallow foudation, I built part of my own >home in Canada with this technique about 12 years ago on well drained soil >with no apparent frost heave problems. In my case I placed extruded foamboard >at a 45 degree angle down and away from the slab ( in a trench which was >subsequently backfilled). I'm new to this mailing list so maybe this reference has been mentionned but it might be useful to other new members : This is a design guide for a frost protected foundation. It is very well written with some fairly good illustrations. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.html Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 00:18:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04133 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA17723 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11372; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:06:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28671 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1b-d157.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.157]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23003 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710170409.VAA23003@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 At 12:11 97-10-16 EDT, you wrote: >Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been >corrected. She is still concerned that >fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be >being drawn into the a/c system. > >Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be >appreciated. This might "seem" drastic, but she might consider not putting the polluting sources in her garage in the first place (that is, not use them, specially the garden chemicals). Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 01:08:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04607 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28621 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12397; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29602 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:57:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ove.arup.com (ove.arup.com [193.116.20.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29598 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ove.arup.com; id FAA09537; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:59:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from a_csun01(69.69.11.1) by ove.arup.com via smap (3.2) id xma009523; Fri, 17 Oct 97 05:59:24 +0100 Received: from arup.com (a_cnws01) by arupuk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17783; Fri, 17 Oct 97 06:00:25 BST Received: from nwgateways-Message_Server by arup.com with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:56:20 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:57:33 +0000 From: Jason Shepherd To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 At 12:11 97-10-16 EDT, you wrote: >Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been >corrected. She is still concerned that >fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be >being drawn into the a/c system. > >Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be >appreciated. There are two potential solutions to the problem at hand with your existing system through the use of ventilation: 1) Divert some of the air conditioned air into the garage and install a relief air grille in the wall furtherest away from the living areas through which the air can pass without re-entering the building. I don't know exactly what system you have installed, but in general a healthy A/C system will have an outdoor(fresh) air component equavilant to 10 L/s.person which. By doing the above you can offset this outdoor air quantity and increase the air change rate in your garage. 2) Install suffecint cross ventilation(ie grill openings on either side of the garage open to the outside to the equivilant 5% of the garage floor area.This option may make your garage cold in winter, hot in summer, and as such Option 1 may be more likeable. Anyway, I hope this Helps ? Cheers Jason Shepherd Ove Arup & Partners Sydney, Australia ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 04:58:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA05965 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA08619 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA14803; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:34:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cache.lib.itb.ac.id (cache.lib.ITB.ac.id [167.205.20.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02566; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberlib.itb.ac.id. (cyberlib.ITB.ac.id [167.205.20.34]) by cache.lib.itb.ac.id (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24942; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:40:07 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from CYBERLIB/MAILQ by cyberlib.itb.ac.id. (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 17 Oct 97 15:41:51 +0700 Received: from MAILQ by CYBERLIB (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 17 Oct 97 15:41:44 +0700 From: "Wise" Organization: Computer Center ITB To: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:41:36 +07 Subject: GBlist: Newcomer asking for HELP X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-ID: <4E74D23734@cyberlib.itb.ac.id.> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 Hello, there My name is Doni Koerniawan, I am a lecturer, right now Im doing an academic research on energy efficient building with specified topics : Solar Energy and Wind Energy. I want to make contacts with any body who can give me something related to my research. Or perhaps somebody could tell me where can I get the information (mailing address is prefered!) Thank you very much for your concern DONI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 08:15:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06866 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09067 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16317; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:06:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA06412 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06361; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:09:22 -0400 Message-id: <1077297@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 17 Oct 97 08:14:22 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages To: herector@paltech.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 --- You wrote: >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a cute covered walkway. --- end of quoted material --- What are the IAQ implications of a cute vs. a not-cute cover on the walkway? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 09:20:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07346 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24003 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17052; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07668 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip30.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.49]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA74 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:21:43 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971017091520.00730840@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:15:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages In-Reply-To: <1077297@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 At 08:14 AM 10/17/97 EDT, you wrote: >--- You wrote: >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but >impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a >cute covered walkway. >--- end of quoted material --- >What are the IAQ implications of a cute vs. a not-cute cover on the walkway? > The secret is being stealthily green: most people are buying to homes to satisfy urges wholly outside environmental and fucntional roles. Curb appeal, and things like that just need to be worked into the equation. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 10:02:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08072 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05282 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17734; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:52:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08647 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-01-12.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.112]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07088; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710171432.KAA07088@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:11:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, achpa@athens.dis.anl.gov, Helen Perrine In-reply-to: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 Hi Beverly, As others have stated, having an attached garage, especially one with return ducting running through it, can lead to IAQ problems. Minnegasco did a study of homes where CO detectors kept going off on "false alarms". They found that very often the problem wasn't a bad detector, but an attached garage. Cars were started up in the morning, backed out of the garage and then the garage door was closed. CO migrated into the home and set off the alarm. By the time anyone came to diagnose the problem, the CO concentrations had dissipated and no one could find the source. They have a 120 page report on this study ($20) and a video called "The Garage to House Connection" ($25). You can call them at 612/321-4880. I don't know if they dealt with fixing the problem, or just diagnosing it. As for fixes, first you must diagnose what is the pathway into the house. There are several things that might be contributing to the problem. As Terry Brennan pointed out, one of the keys is the pressure differentials between the house and garage and the garage to outside. If you want to try pressurizing the garage with respect to outdoors using A/C supply air, you need to also make sure that the pressure of the garage with respect to the house is negative, so the garage air doesn't get pushed into the house, too. The problem with this solution is that if the ducts in the garage are leaky, every time the air handler kicks on, the pressures in the garage and the house will be altered. And if the return ductsand plenum are leaky, they are serving as a direct pathway for the garage air to get into the house. If there are leaks in the returns, then this is most likely your primary problem and should be addressed first. I would caution against going out and sealing them yourself, though, without having someone who has been trained in duct diagnostics to help out. Sealing ducts can alter the airflows in the house nd garage - the fix can cause other problems. I would recommend you contact someone in your area who does this professionally. Florida was one of the first areas of the country to have utility-sponsored duct sealing programs, so you should be able to find someone. You can also try writing to the Affordable Comfort Home Performance Association list serve to get a diagnostician/contractor. Their address is ACHPA@athens.dis.anl.gov. Or you can check out their website at home-performance.org. (BTW, if you have questions of this nature in the future, you may also want to address your note to ACHPA. They focus on how homes work, where things go wrong and how to fix them.) An advantage to contacting ACHPA is that you might be more likely to find someone who has been trained in series leakage, too, who might be able to help determine the situation with the air flows in the house and the interactions caused by mechanical ventilation. They may also have CO detection equipment. And finally, you can also try to tighten up the barrier between the house and the garage. One of the most effective ways is to fill the walls with a dense pack of cellulose insulation. It can be installed so tight that it really impedes airflow. And when it is blown in, it goes everywhere, reaching and filling all of the nooks and crannies in the wall. But I would deal with the ducts, first. Hope this helps. CM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Garages > From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT > Hi, > > I read the recent posting re: garages and it reminded me of a friend of > mine who has asked me for help on a problem in her home affecting her > health. Her 10-year old home here in S. Florida was built with the air > handler in the garage. Since buying the house she has experienced > burning eyes and some breathing discomfort. > > Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been > corrected. She is still concerned that > fumes fr