
From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Tue Sep 13 16:42:05 1994
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Date: 13 Sep 1994 00:20:03 -0000
From: bchristensen@txinfinet.com (Bill Christensen)
Organization: InfiNet Austin Texas
Reply-To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com
Subject: Re: Getting started...
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu

Hi Mike, and all. 

I find it best to add a piece at a time as you are comfortable and feel the
need.  

I've been learning about Permaculture for 6-8 years now, and i think it is a
continually evolving field.  Each of us can increase our web of knowledge
about the processes which surround us and our part in them for as long as
we're here.  

If you were to try to run off in the woods and go "totally permaculture", it
might not be right for you.  Then again it may, and you are the best one to
make that decision.  But i find that people who react to fads tend to
continue to react to the next fad and the next, whereas real learning is a
life process.  You can't change the world tomorrow, but incrementally you can
make a difference.  

A question like "are you living it or just integrating small pieces?" is
invalid.  Where do you draw a line like that?   Last I checked, Bill Mollison
was not, in my opinion, living a perfectly permacultural lifestyle.  (No
offence, Bill!  Neither am I.)  We all have areas that we can improve, more
small pieces to put in place.   We may not even realize that a particular
piece is out of place until we have finished arranging 20 others.  

That slow process of building your dream that you refer to will allow you to
adjust as you go, and create the closest thing to what your dream really is. 


The book is a great resource, but it's not a bible, as I think you're aware. 


In my own situation, I have been working on and living in an intentional
community for 12 years or so.  There are many positive aspects to this, but I
can see many aspects that could be more sustainable.  I've done a lot to use
the principles of permaculture in my own dealings with the building of the
community, and I'm happy about that.  I will continue to do so, wherever I
am.  

Margaret Mead once said "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world;  indeed, it's the only thing that
ever has."

Bill Christensen
bchris@txinfinet.com

  
  Sent via FirstClass (R) UUCP Gateway from InfiNet*
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From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Sep 14 10:44:47 1994
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Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:31:49 +1030
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
From: cabel@metz.une.edu.au (Malcolm Abel)
Subject: Re: Permaculture FAQ project

>On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Steve Diver wrote:
>
>> To permaculture-mg:
>>
>> This is a call for assistance in developing a 'Permaculture FAQ'.
>>
etc. etc.

>> If you have any ideas or comments on this Permaculture FAQ,
>> let's hear 'em.

To which Lawrence F. London, Jr, replied:

>How about someone building permaculture multimedia WebPages (WWW). :-)
>
...more discussion deleted.

I am very interested in permaculture, and related topics and would be happy
to compile some Permaculture WWW pages, I am sure they could be located on
my local site (www.une.edu.au).

There is a fair bit of introductory material published by the Permaculture
Institute in Australia, (they have an address somewhere on the Pegasus
network). does anyone know how much of this might be useful for the FAQ and
WWW.  I will drop them a line if I don't hear back from this list first.

I have created a few WWW pages for my employers as well as other MM stuff
and have use of all the necessary hardware and software.  I also help
publish the local LETS newsletter and have been thinkng of some LETS WWW
stuff too.

I don't seem to get much mail from this list (I must be one of the most
distant subscribers) so if I've missed some other discussion on this topic
let me know.

Bye.

Mal.

Malcolm Abel
Technician, Dept of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology, University of New
England, Australia.




From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 22:42:39 1994
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From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e987bb5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        Darren Longbottom <darren@eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Pc FAQ etc
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: vic,darren
Cc: london@sunsite.unc.edu
 
Subject: Re: Getting started... (fwd)

Larry, could you subscribe me to permaculture-mg please.
I have not been receiving any feed although I thought I had followed
the instructions you sent me about two months ago. Help! Thanks.

>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

I would suggest most strongly that alt.permaculture or alt.pc is 
more appropriate that any other title. If in due course there 
comes to be enough traffic to warrant it, then there might be a 
subgroups(s); 
		alt.pc.farm.dry.temp,
		alt.pc.farm.tropic,
		alt.pc.village, 
		alt.pc.money, 
		alt.pc.smallanimal, 
		alt.pc.backyard. 
		alt.pc.zone0
		etc

It might be that other extant groups overlap with one of these 
sub-categories. In which case we use either name for a double
access pathway (??sounds about right)

Pc is a generic approach to a variety of human and biological 
systems that looks at the system as a whole first. Let's start 
inclusive.

>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that 
purpose; of course, permaculture-related articles appear in 
sanet-mg, alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as 
we are well down that track in Perth Western Australia.

Well, actually, we (EEPO) have a front page, and have started to 
talk about a Pc FAQ.. we have nowhere near the setup Larry has. 

>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd 
>like to archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are 
>working on one here in the U.S.
>
>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED 
>> field as well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

I would see it working much better as a directory service. The FAQ, 
and the occasional chat between people who know, and a directory
of contacts seems more appropriate to me that the building of an 
expert system.

There are too many variables, and the intellectual task of 
codifying and compiling it all is immense. 

Then there is the much more important task of implementing each 
bit you learn.. 

Slowly slowly, knowing that it will take four lifetimes to 
start to understand it.. with enthusiasm!

Pc IS about building a culture, of grounded people, on the ground.
So let's use this medium as just that - a linking, an agent for
introductions. 

We must remember Bill's injunction about work-netting, not 
net-working. This is hard for us e-mailers..
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture 
>that arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an 
>important part of educating the public.
>
Disagree - delete "important part of" and insert "starting point 
for" 
>
>This is the reply I got to the letter I posted to Perma recently.
>Please  think about the idea and let us know  your ideas.
>
> Do you want this to be an open permaculture list???

For others, an open list is one that anyone on the internet can 
subscribe to, at any time, for no fee. 

My view is that it could start that way, but that it would 
probably develop quickly into an honest sampling that invites 
people to subscribe to an electronic "magazine". 

An open list is like asking Bill to make the Designers Manual 
(with a better index!) available free of charge. This is 
unrealistic.

All my experience suggests that people do not place much value 
on stuff they get for free. Or that the people who do value it 
are most likely to be the ones who can afford to pay for it..  

I have now been placing my expensively accumulated knowledge on 
the net in rec.gardens and alt.sustainable.agriculture "free" for
two reasons. One is to balance out the contribution I have received
from others that I value - a reciprocation that I regard as an 
ethical way to conduct myself.  The other is to quietly "market" 
my viewpoint and my knowledge, so something like the subscription 
magazine would not be launched "cold".

There is a growing group of people attempting to make a modest 
livelihood from Pc education and design services, and we should 
expect to pay them for their accumulated knowledge and experience.


>We would provide a cache on the web for the Permaculture FAQ's, 
>as they are developed. (I think)
>
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 23:03:00 1994
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From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e9881d5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From: vic@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
>Message-ID: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
>Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au, permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>
>
>
>Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is
>
>http://203.5.184.1/
>
>At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
>information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
>vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
>--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


How about a copy on the email for us poor peasants who haven't got 
IP access? So we know what it says.

Wx
--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From vic@daena.eepo.com.au  Wed Jan 29 06:17:04 1997
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From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.com.au>
To: Permaculture WA <perma@eepo.com.au>
Subject: Med Fruit fly
X-Listprocessor-Version: eepo-0.10 -- EEPO ListServer
X-Comment:          Permaculture in Western Australia
Status: RO
X-Status: 



Thanks Vic for your valuable input.

I have a problem with Med. fruit fly. Even though the plants are 
healthy they still take out all my fruit crops.
I use bottles to Warwicks formula and catch plenty of flys but the 
fruit still get stung.
Do you have any remedy besides poisons?
regards

From: (Victor Guest) vic@daena.eepo.com.au:smtp
Date: ## 01/07/97 11:30 ##


Does anyone have any helpful ideas for Duncan.  
                                   



From vic@daena.eepo.com.au  Wed Jan 29 06:18:58 1997
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From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.com.au>
To: Permaculture WA <perma@eepo.com.au>
Subject: Allies to Prisoners
X-Listprocessor-Version: eepo-0.10 -- EEPO ListServer
X-Comment:          Permaculture in Western Australia
Status: RO
X-Status: A



                      TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

A group of involved  people ie. a steering committee have come together 
to organise a Conference/ Seminar to enable the noted groups and the General 
public to come together to exchange information about the sad state of our 
justice and gaol systems and positive changes which work.

The disfunctional attitude prevailing in debates over multiculturism, etc 
suggests that there may be room for some directional changes.

We need a transformation of the thinking of people in the community who can 
influence positive changes.There should be some positive goals for this 
gathering such as.	
                 1. To make the public aware of all of the information 
available to fight crime.	
                 2.To make the public aware of how to fight recividism.
                 3.To form a coalition to provide directions for our society.	
                 4.Teaching Holistic Management, RC, Permaculture Landmark 
Forum and Alternatives to Violence in Gaol.
                 5. ?????

What goals would you like to see for your group.You may be interested in 
offering suggestions about other groups who may be involved in similar 
work, who would like to participate. 
A possible format could be:-- a booth to Advertise your group. 
A 15min talk about your work and a 45 min public forum at the end .

We need a venue . We now have been offered UWA. Have an auditorium seats 400.
We need a date.     8th or 22nd March.
We need a name.    Still.       "What works" is what we are all about.
We need a format.   As suggested possibly.

We may need to limit participation.

Regards on behalf of the group.
Vic Guest.  

                     .Allies to Prisoners
This is a list of the participants that I have identified who could be part
of a conference on supporting Prisoners and Aboriginals.


WAIC This Institute is about teaching groups about all forms of Co-operation
. Forming Co-operatives and developing them as a part of an empowerment of 
community.

SAFAFOODS. This company is dedicated to bringing Organic and Biodynamic food
to our community and have interests in being in a grower/consumer 
co-operative. Frank Ash (a principal unit holder also has land near 
Woorooloo prison which he is interested in  having organically farmed.

PERMACULTURE Permaculture has a positive effect on people with emotional and
stress problems. It is being taught in Gaols and also at the Teen Challenge 
farm for young drug addicts in Esperance.

ALTERNATIVES TO VIOLENCE Project. Is a program being run in gaol by people 
involved with PASS.

CITY FARM.Has a Permaculture garden and is run by Men of the Trees. Deet 
courses are run here for street kids etc. Has a MOTT youth group world wide.

REVALUATION CO-COUNSELLING.Has a network of over 200 people Statewide who 
counsel one another. Is being taught in gaols. Has a 10 hour fundamentals 
course to teach the rudiments.

ABORIGINAL EVANGELICAL CHURCH. Have people doing Gaol visits. 

MEN OF THE TREES.Plant trees in our community and have an investment in CityF
farm and young people.

BAHAI.Have a philosophy of uniting the communities of the world. Work in all 
areas of oppression.

SOMA.This organisation is about supporting  Orthomolecular Psychiatry and 
Medicine.Their latest information in support of changes to the treatment of 
prisoners is in the results of  a survey of  violence in  1500 of the most 
violent criminals in American Gaols.

YOUTH IN FOCUS.Work with street kids etc. Have taken over the role of YOUTH 
In SEARCH. Have a major focus on taking disfunctional kids on camps to teach 
them to love one another in a nonsexual way. Claim incredible changes to 
behaviour by kids, uses support groups for ongoing development

LANDMARK FORUM.Have a series of training programs starting with the Forum. 
The result of the Forum taught and videoed in a gaol in San Diego makes this 
program an opportunity for prisoners to Transform their potential.

PASS.Prisoner Advisory Support Services, is a post gaol group who are having 
excellent results in dealing with the high rate of re-affenders.PASS is also 
a Company which secures jobs for released prisoners.

HOLISTIC MANANGEMENT.This process was the featured process at the 
International Permaculture Convergance, in September 1996 .The process’ of 
goal setting and financial management are having excellent results on the
creation of wealth by tribal indians in USA. Would be an excellent way to 
run prisons. And Governments.

NOONGAR ALCOHOL & SUBSTANCE ABUSE SERVICE.(INC)As the name implies this 
group provide counselling support.

TEEN CHALLENGE. A christian group, who have had excellent results in drug 
rehabilitation. Have a property at Esperance and Beverley. Permaculture is 
taught to young addicts at Esperance.
Please add anyone you beleive may be interested.
Sincerely Yours 


Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                       Perth, Western Australia
victor.guest@eepo.com.au                  11 Carew Place Greenwood 6024 
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 2464674
        --------:http://www.eepo.com.au/permacul.html:-------
    ----: The Land Manement Society & The Permaculture Association:----
                 -----: Men Of The Trees :------
           ------: Revaluation Co-Counseling :------
                -----: AAEE  and Greenteach :-----

From anda@essun1.murdoch.edu.au  Thu Jan 30 02:29:37 1997
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To: Permaculture WA <perma@eepo.com.au>
Subject: Re: Allies to Prisoners
X-Listprocessor-Version: eepo-0.10 -- EEPO ListServer
X-Comment:          Permaculture in Western Australia
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Vic

I am interested in supporting the Aboriginal side of the above if any of
the following are useful.

Visiting prisoners at the Murdoch Remand Centre as I have done before (to
run a course on how to make a solar box cooker).

Running a dedicated permaculture course at the Environmental Technology
Centre (ETC) for Aboriginal prisoners.  We are about to start receiving
community works order people at the ETC as Les in our group has been a
supervisor for Corrective Services in Busselton in the past.

The 'climate sensible design' classroom at the ETC would be available as a
venue.  However, it only has a capacity of 50 people max.  Perhaps it could
be used for smaller meetings after the UWA 400-capacity meeting?

Cheers


From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Fri Oct  7 20:02:10 1994
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Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e9498a8.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
        permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: A


>To: 
>
>Hi Mike, and all. 
>
>I find it best to add a piece at a time as you are comfortable and feel the
>need.  

Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.

I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
and I couldn't tell them of one.

I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
down that track in Perth Western Australia.

This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
well as a forum to network more Permaculture.


>I've been learning about Permaculture for 6-8 years now, and i think it is a
>continually evolving field.  Each of us can increase our web of knowledge
>about the processes which surround us and our part in them for as long as
>we're here.  

I was working on sustainability on my farm, and on Permaculture since 
I left the farm, so some of my experiences are similar to you Bill.

I have had access to Internet for about 2 years.

I now also wish I had my grand parents to talk to about their experience
particularly during the depression, when the farm was almost a fully
contained unit.

I still have a memory of all of the smells and tastes.

>Bill Christensen
>bchris@txinfinet.com
>
>  
>  Sent via FirstClass (R) UUCP Gateway from InfiNet*
>    an online community for progressive information
>        Austin, Texas USA * BBS 512.301.2151 
> 

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:29:42 1994
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          9 Oct 94 9:49 WST
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 06:35:10 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e971ea4.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>
>On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Victor Guest wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
>> From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>> To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
>>     permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Victor, can you tell us how we may subscribe to your permaculture
>mailing list in OZ?
>

Well up to date this is a closed list, and I have written to the list
to ask for permission to include you on the list.

A list server has been compiled and should be available for this job.

>> Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>> Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
>> mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
>> of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.
>
>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

My thoughts on this are that maybe we should take the agriculture out of
it so that it doesn't get tooo long.
I envision that we would have news groups which reflect the diversity of
permaculture. Also to help us define the FAQ's.

I see things MAYBE!!! developing along these lines.

alt.permaculture.aquaculture.
alt.permaculture.design
alt.permaculture.energy
alt.permaculture.small animals
alt.permaculture.biodegradables
alt.permaculture.marketing
alt.permaculture.herbs
alt.permaculture.dryland
alt.permaculture.literature
alt.permaculture.culture.Re-evaluation co-counselling
                        .Christian
                        .Aboriginal    
          \             .Ethnic
          [:-)>         .ETC.........
          /
Once again I have posted this to the Perma list for comment, discussion and
ratification.

>> I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
>> and I couldn't tell them of one.
>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that purpose; of 
>course, permaculture-related articles appear in sanet-mg, 
>alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd like to 
>archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of us are working on one here 
>in the U.S.

We have offered to be part of compiling the FAQ's and to cache it here.
The webserver is up and running and an area for permaculture is being 
prepared with the Faq's being a part of that.

>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
>> well as a forum to network more Permaculture.
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture that 
>arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an important part
>of educating the public.

We have a membership list of 726, with the new one ready to come out.
The numbers on E-mail is growing expotentially, and we expect to nab a heap
more at the AGM-community day-Christmas party, to be held at the Edith
Cowan University, on the 15th(16) of Nov.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:30:15 1994
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          9 Oct 94 9:49 WST
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 07:25:42 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.



Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is

http://203.5.184.1/

At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 22:42:39 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:24:35 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e987bb5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        Darren Longbottom <darren@eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Pc FAQ etc
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: vic,darren
Cc: london@sunsite.unc.edu
 
Subject: Re: Getting started... (fwd)

Larry, could you subscribe me to permaculture-mg please.
I have not been receiving any feed although I thought I had followed
the instructions you sent me about two months ago. Help! Thanks.

>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

I would suggest most strongly that alt.permaculture or alt.pc is 
more appropriate that any other title. If in due course there 
comes to be enough traffic to warrant it, then there might be a 
subgroups(s); 
		alt.pc.farm.dry.temp,
		alt.pc.farm.tropic,
		alt.pc.village, 
		alt.pc.money, 
		alt.pc.smallanimal, 
		alt.pc.backyard. 
		alt.pc.zone0
		etc

It might be that other extant groups overlap with one of these 
sub-categories. In which case we use either name for a double
access pathway (??sounds about right)

Pc is a generic approach to a variety of human and biological 
systems that looks at the system as a whole first. Let's start 
inclusive.

>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that 
purpose; of course, permaculture-related articles appear in 
sanet-mg, alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as 
we are well down that track in Perth Western Australia.

Well, actually, we (EEPO) have a front page, and have started to 
talk about a Pc FAQ.. we have nowhere near the setup Larry has. 

>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd 
>like to archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are 
>working on one here in the U.S.
>
>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED 
>> field as well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

I would see it working much better as a directory service. The FAQ, 
and the occasional chat between people who know, and a directory
of contacts seems more appropriate to me that the building of an 
expert system.

There are too many variables, and the intellectual task of 
codifying and compiling it all is immense. 

Then there is the much more important task of implementing each 
bit you learn.. 

Slowly slowly, knowing that it will take four lifetimes to 
start to understand it.. with enthusiasm!

Pc IS about building a culture, of grounded people, on the ground.
So let's use this medium as just that - a linking, an agent for
introductions. 

We must remember Bill's injunction about work-netting, not 
net-working. This is hard for us e-mailers..
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture 
>that arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an 
>important part of educating the public.
>
Disagree - delete "important part of" and insert "starting point 
for" 
>
>This is the reply I got to the letter I posted to Perma recently.
>Please  think about the idea and let us know  your ideas.
>
> Do you want this to be an open permaculture list???

For others, an open list is one that anyone on the internet can 
subscribe to, at any time, for no fee. 

My view is that it could start that way, but that it would 
probably develop quickly into an honest sampling that invites 
people to subscribe to an electronic "magazine". 

An open list is like asking Bill to make the Designers Manual 
(with a better index!) available free of charge. This is 
unrealistic.

All my experience suggests that people do not place much value 
on stuff they get for free. Or that the people who do value it 
are most likely to be the ones who can afford to pay for it..  

I have now been placing my expensively accumulated knowledge on 
the net in rec.gardens and alt.sustainable.agriculture "free" for
two reasons. One is to balance out the contribution I have received
from others that I value - a reciprocation that I regard as an 
ethical way to conduct myself.  The other is to quietly "market" 
my viewpoint and my knowledge, so something like the subscription 
magazine would not be launched "cold".

There is a growing group of people attempting to make a modest 
livelihood from Pc education and design services, and we should 
expect to pay them for their accumulated knowledge and experience.


>We would provide a cache on the web for the Permaculture FAQ's, 
>as they are developed. (I think)
>
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 23:03:00 1994
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X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:50:44 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e9881d5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From: vic@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
>Message-ID: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
>Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au, permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>
>
>
>Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is
>
>http://203.5.184.1/
>
>At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
>information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
>vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
>--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


How about a copy on the email for us poor peasants who haven't got 
IP access? So we know what it says.

Wx
--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu Wed Sep 14 10:44:30 1994
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 1994 20:31:49 +1030
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
From: cabel@metz.une.edu.au (Malcolm Abel)
Subject: Re: Permaculture FAQ project
Status: O
X-Status: 

>On Wed, 7 Sep 1994, Steve Diver wrote:
>
>> To permaculture-mg:
>>
>> This is a call for assistance in developing a 'Permaculture FAQ'.
>>
etc. etc.

>> If you have any ideas or comments on this Permaculture FAQ,
>> let's hear 'em.

To which Lawrence F. London, Jr, replied:

>How about someone building permaculture multimedia WebPages (WWW). :-)
>
...more discussion deleted.

I am very interested in permaculture, and related topics and would be happy
to compile some Permaculture WWW pages, I am sure they could be located on
my local site (www.une.edu.au).

There is a fair bit of introductory material published by the Permaculture
Institute in Australia, (they have an address somewhere on the Pegasus
network). does anyone know how much of this might be useful for the FAQ and
WWW.  I will drop them a line if I don't hear back from this list first.

I have created a few WWW pages for my employers as well as other MM stuff
and have use of all the necessary hardware and software.  I also help
publish the local LETS newsletter and have been thinkng of some LETS WWW
stuff too.

I don't seem to get much mail from this list (I must be one of the most
distant subscribers) so if I've missed some other discussion on this topic
let me know.

Bye.

Mal.

Malcolm Abel
Technician, Dept of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology, University of New
England, Australia.




From LLOHR@agecon.conner.uga.edu Tue Sep 27 11:08:39 1994
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From: "LUANNE LOHR" <LLOHR@agecon.conner.uga.edu>
To: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Date:          Tue, 27 Sep 1994 11:11:11 EST
Subject:       Re: tree information
Priority: normal
X-Mailer:     Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a)
Message-Id: <56DB1EA3C6D@agecon.conner.uga.edu>
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Larry London:

You wrote

> I recently purchased a 10 acre rural piece of land in 
> Prince Edward Island, of which 6 acres is clear-cut - quite a mess. The 
> government reforestation programme has offered to retree the land for me, for 
> a very reasonable fee, but I have to choose the variety of trees, where they 
> are to go, and how the species are to be mixed. ... in fact, to complicate 
> things, they offer only softwood varieties. If I want hardwood, I have to 
> purchase them separately...
> 
> The land is quite steep, and the soil is good. I want to develop it for 
> recreation and to attract wildlife ... and to build a secluded house on top of 
> the hill someday... 
> 
I don't know about the specific situation you face, but I have a 
small property in Georgia that used to be a cotton farm (very 
degraded soils, acidic and no topsoil left).  I found good 
information by looking in books on Gardening with Native Species, 
which tend to be woodland varieties in this area, found a couple books 
specific to the area I am in.  The problem is that most commercial 
nurseries only offer species that are used in landscaping, and often 
these are not the ones that are native.  I also got help at a nursery 
that specializes in native perennials.  And I found some of the 
varieties that would work for my "reclamation project" through the 
state forestry commission, although most of their efforts are geared 
toward forestry for future timber production and my interest was 
animal and bird habitat.  

Suggestions:  If you have access to a university with a forestry 
school or a horticulture department or possibly an environmental or 
landscape design school, you can usually find a "native 
plants buff" who can help locate species sources for you and help you 
plan a habitat.  Some commercial nurseries also have specialists in 
native plants or habitat creation (As opposed to household 
landscaping).  Books on landscaping with native plants may give ideas 
on species to you, although they tend to lay out garden-type 
environments in their design.  My understanding is that the most 
important aspect of successfully naturalizing an area is the 
selection of compatible species, those that are normally companions 
in the wild environment.  This is also supposed to be more attractive 
to birds and animals. 

Good luck.


__________________________________________________________________
Luanne Lohr

Dept. of Agricultural & Applied Economics           (706) 542-0847 
Room 312 Conner Hall                           FAX: (706) 542-0739
University of Georgia        Internet: llohr@agecon.conner.uga.edu 
Athens, GA  30602-7509

From ammcguire@ucdavis.edu Fri Oct  7 19:33:32 1994
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

subscribe sanet-mg


From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Fri Oct  7 20:02:10 1994
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Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e9498a8.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
        permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: A


>To: 
>
>Hi Mike, and all. 
>
>I find it best to add a piece at a time as you are comfortable and feel the
>need.  

Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.

I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
and I couldn't tell them of one.

I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
down that track in Perth Western Australia.

This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
well as a forum to network more Permaculture.


>I've been learning about Permaculture for 6-8 years now, and i think it is a
>continually evolving field.  Each of us can increase our web of knowledge
>about the processes which surround us and our part in them for as long as
>we're here.  

I was working on sustainability on my farm, and on Permaculture since 
I left the farm, so some of my experiences are similar to you Bill.

I have had access to Internet for about 2 years.

I now also wish I had my grand parents to talk to about their experience
particularly during the depression, when the farm was almost a fully
contained unit.

I still have a memory of all of the smells and tastes.

>Bill Christensen
>bchris@txinfinet.com
>
>  
>  Sent via FirstClass (R) UUCP Gateway from InfiNet*
>    an online community for progressive information
>        Austin, Texas USA * BBS 512.301.2151 
> 

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From london Fri Oct  7 22:46:11 1994
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Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 22:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london>
To: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
        permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
In-Reply-To: <2e9498a8.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
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Status: RO
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On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Victor Guest wrote:

> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
> From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
> To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
>     permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Victor, can you tell us how we may subscribe to your permaculture
mailing list in OZ?

> Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Getting started...

> Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
> mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
> of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.

I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
formed here at my newssite.

> I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
> and I couldn't tell them of one.
alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that purpose; of 
course, permaculture-related articles appear in sanet-mg, 
alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.

> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd like to 
archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are working on one here 
in the U.S.

> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
> well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture that 
arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an important part
of educating the public.

> --
> Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
> vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                 ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
> --: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


________________________________________________
Lawrence F. London, Jr. - london@sunSITE.unc.edu 
------------------------------------------------


From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:27:20 1994
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 06:35:10 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e971ea4.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>
>On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Victor Guest wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
>> From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>> To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
>>     permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Victor, can you tell us how we may subscribe to your permaculture
>mailing list in OZ?
>

Well up to date this is a closed list, and I have written to the list
to ask for permission to include you on the list.

A list server has been compiled and should be available for this job.

>> Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>> Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
>> mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
>> of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.
>
>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

My thoughts on this are that maybe we should take the agriculture out of
it so that it doesn't get tooo long.
I envision that we would have news groups which reflect the diversity of
permaculture. Also to help us define the FAQ's.

I see things MAYBE!!! developing along these lines.

alt.permaculture.aquaculture.
alt.permaculture.design
alt.permaculture.energy
alt.permaculture.small animals
alt.permaculture.biodegradables
alt.permaculture.marketing
alt.permaculture.herbs
alt.permaculture.dryland
alt.permaculture.literature
alt.permaculture.culture.Re-evaluation co-counselling
                        .Christian
                        .Aboriginal    
          \             .Ethnic
          [:-)>         .ETC.........
          /
Once again I have posted this to the Perma list for comment, discussion and
ratification.

>> I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
>> and I couldn't tell them of one.
>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that purpose; of 
>course, permaculture-related articles appear in sanet-mg, 
>alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd like to 
>archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of us are working on one here 
>in the U.S.

We have offered to be part of compiling the FAQ's and to cache it here.
The webserver is up and running and an area for permaculture is being 
prepared with the Faq's being a part of that.

>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
>> well as a forum to network more Permaculture.
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture that 
>arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an important part
>of educating the public.

We have a membership list of 726, with the new one ready to come out.
The numbers on E-mail is growing expotentially, and we expect to nab a heap
more at the AGM-community day-Christmas party, to be held at the Edith
Cowan University, on the 15th(16) of Nov.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:28:50 1994
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 07:25:42 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.



Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is

http://203.5.184.1/

At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 22:42:39 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:24:35 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e987bb5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        Darren Longbottom <darren@eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Pc FAQ etc
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: vic,darren
Cc: london@sunsite.unc.edu
 
Subject: Re: Getting started... (fwd)

Larry, could you subscribe me to permaculture-mg please.
I have not been receiving any feed although I thought I had followed
the instructions you sent me about two months ago. Help! Thanks.

>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

I would suggest most strongly that alt.permaculture or alt.pc is 
more appropriate that any other title. If in due course there 
comes to be enough traffic to warrant it, then there might be a 
subgroups(s); 
		alt.pc.farm.dry.temp,
		alt.pc.farm.tropic,
		alt.pc.village, 
		alt.pc.money, 
		alt.pc.smallanimal, 
		alt.pc.backyard. 
		alt.pc.zone0
		etc

It might be that other extant groups overlap with one of these 
sub-categories. In which case we use either name for a double
access pathway (??sounds about right)

Pc is a generic approach to a variety of human and biological 
systems that looks at the system as a whole first. Let's start 
inclusive.

>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that 
purpose; of course, permaculture-related articles appear in 
sanet-mg, alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as 
we are well down that track in Perth Western Australia.

Well, actually, we (EEPO) have a front page, and have started to 
talk about a Pc FAQ.. we have nowhere near the setup Larry has. 

>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd 
>like to archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are 
>working on one here in the U.S.
>
>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED 
>> field as well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

I would see it working much better as a directory service. The FAQ, 
and the occasional chat between people who know, and a directory
of contacts seems more appropriate to me that the building of an 
expert system.

There are too many variables, and the intellectual task of 
codifying and compiling it all is immense. 

Then there is the much more important task of implementing each 
bit you learn.. 

Slowly slowly, knowing that it will take four lifetimes to 
start to understand it.. with enthusiasm!

Pc IS about building a culture, of grounded people, on the ground.
So let's use this medium as just that - a linking, an agent for
introductions. 

We must remember Bill's injunction about work-netting, not 
net-working. This is hard for us e-mailers..
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture 
>that arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an 
>important part of educating the public.
>
Disagree - delete "important part of" and insert "starting point 
for" 
>
>This is the reply I got to the letter I posted to Perma recently.
>Please  think about the idea and let us know  your ideas.
>
> Do you want this to be an open permaculture list???

For others, an open list is one that anyone on the internet can 
subscribe to, at any time, for no fee. 

My view is that it could start that way, but that it would 
probably develop quickly into an honest sampling that invites 
people to subscribe to an electronic "magazine". 

An open list is like asking Bill to make the Designers Manual 
(with a better index!) available free of charge. This is 
unrealistic.

All my experience suggests that people do not place much value 
on stuff they get for free. Or that the people who do value it 
are most likely to be the ones who can afford to pay for it..  

I have now been placing my expensively accumulated knowledge on 
the net in rec.gardens and alt.sustainable.agriculture "free" for
two reasons. One is to balance out the contribution I have received
from others that I value - a reciprocation that I regard as an 
ethical way to conduct myself.  The other is to quietly "market" 
my viewpoint and my knowledge, so something like the subscription 
magazine would not be launched "cold".

There is a growing group of people attempting to make a modest 
livelihood from Pc education and design services, and we should 
expect to pay them for their accumulated knowledge and experience.


>We would provide a cache on the web for the Permaculture FAQ's, 
>as they are developed. (I think)
>
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 22:42:39 1994
Received: from perth.dialix.oz.au (calzone.oit.unc.edu) by SunSITE.Unc.EDU (5.65c+IDA/FvK-1.07) with SMTP
          id AA15257; Sun, 9 Oct 1994 22:42:02 -0400
Received: from cessysv.UUCP (cenguucp@localhost) by perth.dialix.oz.au (8.6.4.1/8.6.4) with UUCP id KAA13520 for sunsite.unc.edu!london; Mon, 10 Oct 1994 10:41:48 +0800
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          id aa11702; 10 Oct 94 10:09 WST
Received:  by bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (UUPC/extended 1.11n);
           Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:24:36 WST
X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:24:35 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e987bb5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        Darren Longbottom <darren@eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Pc FAQ etc
Status: RO
X-Status: D

To: vic,darren
Cc: london@sunsite.unc.edu
 
Subject: Re: Getting started... (fwd)

Larry, could you subscribe me to permaculture-mg please.
I have not been receiving any feed although I thought I had followed
the instructions you sent me about two months ago. Help! Thanks.

>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

I would suggest most strongly that alt.permaculture or alt.pc is 
more appropriate that any other title. If in due course there 
comes to be enough traffic to warrant it, then there might be a 
subgroups(s); 
		alt.pc.farm.dry.temp,
		alt.pc.farm.tropic,
		alt.pc.village, 
		alt.pc.money, 
		alt.pc.smallanimal, 
		alt.pc.backyard. 
		alt.pc.zone0
		etc

It might be that other extant groups overlap with one of these 
sub-categories. In which case we use either name for a double
access pathway (??sounds about right)

Pc is a generic approach to a variety of human and biological 
systems that looks at the system as a whole first. Let's start 
inclusive.

>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that 
purpose; of course, permaculture-related articles appear in 
sanet-mg, alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as 
we are well down that track in Perth Western Australia.

Well, actually, we (EEPO) have a front page, and have started to 
talk about a Pc FAQ.. we have nowhere near the setup Larry has. 

>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd 
>like to archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are 
>working on one here in the U.S.
>
>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED 
>> field as well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

I would see it working much better as a directory service. The FAQ, 
and the occasional chat between people who know, and a directory
of contacts seems more appropriate to me that the building of an 
expert system.

There are too many variables, and the intellectual task of 
codifying and compiling it all is immense. 

Then there is the much more important task of implementing each 
bit you learn.. 

Slowly slowly, knowing that it will take four lifetimes to 
start to understand it.. with enthusiasm!

Pc IS about building a culture, of grounded people, on the ground.
So let's use this medium as just that - a linking, an agent for
introductions. 

We must remember Bill's injunction about work-netting, not 
net-working. This is hard for us e-mailers..
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture 
>that arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an 
>important part of educating the public.
>
Disagree - delete "important part of" and insert "starting point 
for" 
>
>This is the reply I got to the letter I posted to Perma recently.
>Please  think about the idea and let us know  your ideas.
>
> Do you want this to be an open permaculture list???

For others, an open list is one that anyone on the internet can 
subscribe to, at any time, for no fee. 

My view is that it could start that way, but that it would 
probably develop quickly into an honest sampling that invites 
people to subscribe to an electronic "magazine". 

An open list is like asking Bill to make the Designers Manual 
(with a better index!) available free of charge. This is 
unrealistic.

All my experience suggests that people do not place much value 
on stuff they get for free. Or that the people who do value it 
are most likely to be the ones who can afford to pay for it..  

I have now been placing my expensively accumulated knowledge on 
the net in rec.gardens and alt.sustainable.agriculture "free" for
two reasons. One is to balance out the contribution I have received
from others that I value - a reciprocation that I regard as an 
ethical way to conduct myself.  The other is to quietly "market" 
my viewpoint and my knowledge, so something like the subscription 
magazine would not be launched "cold".

There is a growing group of people attempting to make a modest 
livelihood from Pc education and design services, and we should 
expect to pay them for their accumulated knowledge and experience.


>We would provide a cache on the web for the Permaculture FAQ's, 
>as they are developed. (I think)
>
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 23:03:00 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:50:44 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e9881d5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From: vic@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
>Message-ID: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
>Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au, permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>
>
>
>Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is
>
>http://203.5.184.1/
>
>At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
>information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
>vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
>--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


How about a copy on the email for us poor peasants who haven't got 
IP access? So we know what it says.

Wx
--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From london Thu Oct  6 00:35:45 1994
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From: Larry London <london>
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Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 00:33:27 -0400
To: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu, renew-energy@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Permaculture Workshop with author Bill Mollison
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Status: O
X-Status: 

From: mheumann@aol.com (MHEUMANN)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Permaculture Workshop with author Bill Mollison
Date: 4 Oct 1994 21:52:04 -0400

A permaculture Workshop with founder and author of Permaculture Bill
Mollison will be held on October 25 & 26 in Sebastopol, California. This
will be Bill's last speaking engagement in the U.S. for possibly a year or
more!   For more information call  (707) 829-8348  USA or email c/o
MHEUMANN@aol.com







From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 23:03:00 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:50:44 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e9881d5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From: vic@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
>Message-ID: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
>Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au, permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>
>
>
>Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is
>
>http://203.5.184.1/
>
>At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
>information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
>vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
>--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


How about a copy on the email for us poor peasants who haven't got 
IP access? So we know what it says.

Wx
--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu Fri Oct 14 10:59:16 1994
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Message-Id: <m0qvo42-0001IZC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: Re: E-Z Home Aquaculture (fwd)
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu (Larry London)
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:56:58 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
In-Reply-To: <9410132254.AA12288@sunsite.oit.unc.edu> from "Larry London" at Oct 13, 94 06:54:58 pm
Content-Type: text
Content-Length: 3489      
Status: RO
X-Status: 

 
> ------- start of forwarded message -------
> From: wbw@shore.net (William B. Warren)
> Newsgroups: sci.environment,alt.energy.renewable
> Subject: E-Z Home Aquaculture
> Date: 13 Oct 1994 16:31:32 -0400
> Organization: North Shore Access; a service of Eco Software, Inc.
> Lines: 13
> 
> If one were to grow some tilapia in a solar algae tank or two, pump 
> the wastewater through a nitrifying tank, and then divert the water 
> through hydroponically grown grasses, herbs, etc. before returning it to 
> the fish tank(s), is this water a satisfactory nutrient solution? 
> 
> Does one need to feed the fish a particular food, or a particular variety of
> foods to obtain a complete nutrient solution for the plants? Or would one 
> need to regularly add certain trace elements or salts?
> 
> Ideas,Comments,Suggestions,Criticism?
> Thanks in Advance,
> 		 Will
> 
> ------- end of forwarded message -------


Tom Speraneo in West Plains, MO, has developed an integrated
system based on tilapia and basil culture.  He has also
raised tomatoes & cukes, but like other folks who've tried 
aquaponics, he found herbaceous plants are better adapted 
than heavy-feeders like fruiting plants. 

Effluent from the bottom of the fish tanks is trickle irrigated 
"directly" onto gravel-cultured hydroponic vegetable beds.  
There is no intermediary stage like a biofilter or
nitrifyer.  The plant roots and bacteria living in the
gravel serve as the biofilter.  They remove the nitrates and
other nutrients as food.  The purified water is then
recirculated back to the fish tanks after going through an
aerator. 

The fertility input to hydroponic production is the fish
feed.  Adjustment of protein level in the fish feed helps 
regulate pH, etc.  Fish metalobolites (i.e., manure), 
decomposing fish food, and algae are the source of
nutrients.  The bacteria in the gravel run the whole show. 
To inoculate the system, collect a liter of tank water from 
a plain home aquarium and dump it in the fish tanks.  

The aquatic product, tilapia, is a secondary product.  The 
largest biomass and salable product is the vegetable/herb
produce.  At one time, he estimated 70 lbs produce to every
1 lb. tilapia.  North Carolina State Univ. research data was
2:1.  Speraneo modeled his system after NCSU and then
modified it about a dozen times to get where he is today. 

The Freshwater Insititute in West Virginia does it very 
differently.  They focus on cutting edge recirculating 
trout aquaculture.  Using oxygenation and ozonation, plus
demand feeders and injected aerated stream water, they are
able to get impressive trout yields in tanks.  Recirculated
water is treated with an expensive clarifier, sand biofilter, 
and aerator.  

Prior to returning the water back to the natural stream 
(with a natural P of 3 ppb), they remove the several hundred 
parts per million P, plus N, etc., by running it through 
aquaponics or constructed wetlands in greenhouses.  Aquaponic plants 
raised include strawberries and lettuce.  Constructed wetland plants 
used include turf grasses and vetiver grass.  P removal is 
80% first time through.  Biomass prouduction is solely based on 
nutrients in used fish tank water except for iron injection. 

Hope these notes and ideas are helpful.  I've been tracking
these and other aquaponic systems because they represent a 
fine model of sustainable food production, and fit well with
the goals and concepts of permaculture. 

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, AR


From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Tue Oct 18 20:07:44 1994
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Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 18:26:17 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2ea3a2d1.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Acacia seeds (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>A lot of Australian native plants are listed in the latest Kimseed catalogue
>
>	KIMSEED
>	Australian Revegetation Corp.
>	42 Sarich Court
>	Osborne Park WA 6017 
>	Australia
>
>Phone +61 (0)9 446 4377		Fax +61 (0)9 446 3444
>
>The latest copy I've received arrived in late June this year.  There are some
>250 species of _Acacia_ listed.
>
>Prices for _A. auriculiformis_ are 	AUD190.00/kg, AUD9.50 per 25 g
>       for _A. mangium_ they are	AUD440.00/kg, AUD22.00 per 25 g
>
>Cheers,  Ian S.
>
>

Steve Hill from Kimseeds is an old friend. I'll see him tomorrow and we 
will try to get the Catalogue onto our web server.
 I'll try for an E-Mail address as well.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Thu Oct 20 18:13:32 1994
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From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2ea5d6f0.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: double sowing barley & winter wheat! add alfalfa? (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>
>hey!
>
>i just read about the following kind of method:
>
>1/ spring, year 1: sow barley and winter wheat in two runs, use
>		   criss-cross method to reduce competition between
>		   barley & wheat. if available use variety of winter
>		   crop that doesn't need to be sown too densely.
>2/ autumn, year 1: harvest barley. winter wheat is lurking, hasn't
>		   developed much due to lack of vernalization. no tillage!
>3/ spring, year 2: winter wheat emerges.
>4/ autumn, year 2: harvest winter wheat.
>
>comments: savings in tillage, savings (earnings?!) in humus, savings in
>	  nutrients, environment less polluted by nutrients, better
>	  overwintering conditions for winter crop. tests indicate crops
>	  harvested are about the same size as those gotten using the
>	  "conventional" method in finland.
>
>isn't this cool? i for one am extremely excited about this, but i bet
>you people have been using this for years... if so, tell me about your
>experiences. btw, IMHO one should sow vetch or something as well in
>order to increase nitrogen levels and thus improve conditions for
>pulling the carbon - contained in the barley straw - into the tillage
>layer. i heard vetch can grow in this kind of shade.
>
>anybody know an even better nitrogen fixer that can grow in the shade?
>alfalfa would be highly cool, but i wonder if there would be enough
>space for it... if you've done this with alfalfa, tell me!
>-- 
>"i abhor you pretentious insight. i respect conscious guessing
>because it consists of two good qualities: courage and modesty."
>-imre lakatos
>------- end of forwarded message -------
>

This type of combining was very useful, and is used to a lesser degree
today in our farming in W.A. 
It was a very good way to establish clovers and medicagos as pasture
with limited funds.
By simply adding to the the seed hopper, the idea was to provide enough
seed the following year to establish a nitrogen producing Pasture. Trials
by the Agricultural Dept were set up to demonstrate the loss of production
from the growing of the competitor. Most of "our" farms pasture was 
established this way. (325mm rainfall belt)
I wouldn't consider Lucerne (alfa alfa) in a cropping area as it needs time
to establish in a dryland situation. ( it's roots have been traced to 10         
meters)
There is a lot missing from your question as to what you are trying to 
achieve. Continuos cropping, ley farming, rainfall constraints, chemical 
free.
People who use one pass broad acre techniques, supply nitrogen to the crop
to compensate for the nitrogen lost to the growing plant by the straw. 
breaking down. Leached nitrogen from this practice gets to our Waterways.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Mon Oct 24 18:48:59 1994
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From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2eab138a.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Re: hedgerows (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>I am doing reasearch on hedgerows as productive spaces on farms.
>My thought are that farmers would be more willing to keep and 
>maintain them for wildlife corridors and wind and soil erosion 
>control if they were also producing lumber, nuts, fruits and other 
>perennial crops. Anyone have experience using black walnut, 
>hickory, chestnuts, hybrid willow "Austrees"
>and shrubs such as blueberry, lamarkii or others for thier 
>commercial value as well as a hedgerow? I am primarily studying 
>land that is used for potato production.

Farmers in Western Australia have been watching some work done at Dowerin
where hedgerows of Tagasaste and Acacia I think, were used to not only
protect sandy soil from erosion, but the effect of the Tagasaste etc. was
an increase in yield. Plus Perenial Grazing. The hedgerows were on the
contour I think and across the prevaling  winds. they were x runs wide of 
the farmers sowing equipment.

At a lancare conference at Northam last year we saw these rows of 
Tagasaste being established for grazing and although they weren't
being especially connected to wildlife corridors the birdlife was 
extensive in them.

Machinery was being built to shape them as hedges so that sheep could 
get the grazing from food out of their reach.

Combinations of cattle and sheep were also being used after establishment.

>Phil Ferraro, Director
>Institute for Bioregional Studies
>449 University Avenue Suite 126            "Developing Local Solutions to 
>Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island	    Global Problems"
>Canada   C1A 8K3
>(902) 892-9578

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Wed Oct 26 03:57:05 1994
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Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 07:58:12 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2ead9b9d.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Re: OZ view on small farms (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: D

>
>Regards Jim Mckie (look at posting on landcare in this news group at later 
>date)
>
>Im interested in conversing with small farmers all over the world, send 
>us message...
> 
>jmckie@yarrow.wt.uwa.edu.au 
>
>An University address but i not an Academic. I just use their link.
>
>------- end of forwarded message -------
>
>>I am doing reasearch on hedgerows as productive spaces on farms.
>>My thought are that farmers would be more willing to keep and
>>maintain them for wildlife corridors and wind and soil erosion
>>control if they were also producing lumber, nuts, fruits and other
>>perennial crops. Anyone have experience using black walnut,
>>hickory, chestnuts, hybrid willow "Austrees"
>>and shrubs such as blueberry, lamarkii or others for thier
>>commercial value as well as a hedgerow? I am primarily studying
>>land that is used for potato production......

Vic,

I can't help thinking that we are guilty of losing the wisdom of the
centuries. Hedging and Ditching was something the old boys used to do after
harvest. It was an art as well as a science, and typically, we started
ripping up the hedges and the practioners died. Why do we reject the past?
Is there something wrong with it?
I went back to the part of Englnad I spent years in some years ago only to
find that all the heges along "our" lane had gone, despite the fact that
the Duke of Wellington owns the land and tries to control in ways which
benefit wildlife etc. What a crime.
I suppose the Canadian should seek info in the folklore books from the UK,
becasue I don't see too many farms in WA doing H & D.

"A house is a machine for living in...." Le Corbusier. Oh really?
(Dr) Bill Parker  : bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au (+ 619) 328 3804
Box 175 North Perth Western Australia 6006
------------------------------------------------------------------
I have posted this comment from my friend (Dr)Bill Parker as it is relevant
to the small farm issue and the increase in production that is being 
observed in one of my postings about Tagasate and Acacia hedges at Dowerin.


Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Fri Oct 28 22:41:42 1994
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From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2eb1a942.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: Permaculture hub <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        "Dr. Bill Parker" <bill@brenta.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: More on hedges
Status: RO
X-Status: D

Further to Vic's comment, and his inclusion of stuff from Bill Parker,
there are increasing attempts to save the old skills. I have been
ablt to find several in areas of Western Australia, as well as in England.

For those who may have more than a passing interest, there is a very 
good book that I believe would be enough for someone actually wanting 
to do these things:

	The Forgotten Arts
	John Seymour
	Dorling Kindersley, UK for the National Trust
	1984
	ISBN 0-86318-052-3

One chapter is called Crafts of the field: 
Hedge laying, Dry-stone walling, Making stiles, Well Digging, Peat Cutting.

Warwick
--
 __________________________________________________________
|                warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au                |
|                                                          |
|   Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer       |
|_"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn_|


From adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu Tue Nov  8 06:38:25 1994
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Path: solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!hiscdcj
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.agriculture,alt.co-ops,aus.conserve,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Looking for permaculture info
Message-ID: <1994Nov8.084831.17702@lugb.latrobe.edu.au>
From: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Dwayne Jones-Evans)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:48:31 GMT
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Keywords: permaculture World Wide Web  
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Hello,

I'm currently attempting to set up a WWW page on permaculture.  I know
of the stuff on sunsite, but I was wondering if anyone has anything else
that they would like placed on the web, or who know of other information
which is related to permacultural stuff.

I've just started looking into sources on the net, so I haven't come
across much stuff which is permacultural as yet, aside from sunsite.

I'd like to put as much information up as possible.  I can only
manipulate straight ascii files, however.  URLs would be ideal,
HTML-ised ascii text would be better, but I will HTML-ise ascii texts if
required.

If anyone knows of any other info which is related to permaculture, I'd
be interested in that too.

Dwayne.


--


-|-+-|-     r e t u r n     t o       t h e     s o u r c e     -|-+-|-
                 internet: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au
-|-+-|-       OurAimIsWakefulnessOurEnemyIsDreamlessSleep       -|-+-|-

looking for * permaculture * resources on the net. Mail me with URLs 

NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier..     mail listserv@netcom.com
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/              "subscribe nexus-gaia" 

From cyronwode@aol.com Tue Nov  8 10:02:57 EST 1994
Article: 4398 of alt.sustainable.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!convex!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swiss.ans.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Permaculture Design Course - CA
Date: 2 Nov 1994 21:43:03 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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>From  November 5th through November 19th, La Tierra Community in
Sebastopol, California (an hour north of San Francisco) will be hosting a
two week Permaculture Design Course with Scott Pittman, founder and
director of the Permaculture Drylands Institute. The cost is $750 and
includes all meals, and camping or tent dormitory. Call (707) 829-8348 or
Permaculture Course c/o Vital Technologies, P. O. Box 279, Sebastopol, CA
95473.

I am not associated with La Tierra, but i attended a two-day Permaculture
workshop there with Bill Moillison and Scott Pittman and it was GREAT. I
assume all readers of this ng are familair with Permaculture, so i will
not bother to describe it. La Tierra is a group of 4 families located on
15 acres of old apple orchards, worn out pasture and sedge wetlands, with
a year-round creek (unusual in California). I assume that some of what
will be done there will be hands-on work setting up swales and ponds, as
these were laid out by Mollison when he gave the two-day workshop. 

The two-week course grants one certification as a Permaculture Design
Trainee and entitles one to use the term Permaculture in pursuit of a
livelihood and for educational purposes. 

Course Topics Include:
Permaculture philosophy and ethics
Principles of natural systems
Permaculture principles and design methodology
Reading the landscape/site analyisis
Soil building/erosion control
Water in the landscape
Village design
Building design/shelters
Energy conservation
Gardening techniques

catherine


From hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au Thu Nov 10 23:07:46 EST 1994
Article: 2089 of sci.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!hiscdcj
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.agriculture,alt.co-ops,aus.conserve,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Looking for permaculture info
Message-ID: <1994Nov8.084831.17702@lugb.latrobe.edu.au>
From: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Dwayne Jones-Evans)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:48:31 GMT
Sender: news@lugb.latrobe.edu.au (News System)
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Keywords: permaculture World Wide Web  
Summary: looking for permaculture or permaculture-related resources 
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Hello,

I'm currently attempting to set up a WWW page on permaculture.  I know
of the stuff on sunsite, but I was wondering if anyone has anything else
that they would like placed on the web, or who know of other information
which is related to permacultural stuff.

I've just started looking into sources on the net, so I haven't come
across much stuff which is permacultural as yet, aside from sunsite.

I'd like to put as much information up as possible.  I can only
manipulate straight ascii files, however.  URLs would be ideal,
HTML-ised ascii text would be better, but I will HTML-ise ascii texts if
required.

If anyone knows of any other info which is related to permaculture, I'd
be interested in that too.

Dwayne.


--


-|-+-|-     r e t u r n     t o       t h e     s o u r c e     -|-+-|-
                 internet: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au
-|-+-|-       OurAimIsWakefulnessOurEnemyIsDreamlessSleep       -|-+-|-

looking for * permaculture * resources on the net. Mail me with URLs 

NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier..     mail listserv@netcom.com
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/              "subscribe nexus-gaia" 


From jan.viste@euronetis.no Thu Nov 10 23:10:58 EST 1994
Article: 4425 of alt.sustainable.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!concert!news.duke.edu!eff!news.umbc.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!trane.uninett.no!eunet.no!nuug!euronet!jan.viste
Distribution: world
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: PERMACULTURE????
From: jan.viste@euronetis.no (Jan Viste)
Message-ID: <4.3744.237@euronetis.no>
Date: Sat,  5 Nov 94 09:23:00 +0200
Organization: EuroNet Information System, Data +47 5271 6021
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    I am a farmer from Norway who have been reading from this 
    conferance for some time.
    
    There is some things I wonder about. Can anybody tell me what
    permaculture means. My english is not so good so try to use 
    easy words please.

JAN
---
 * 1st 1.11 #3217 * jan.viste@euronetis.no


From cyronwode@aol.com Thu Nov 10 23:30:22 EST 1994
Article: 4420 of alt.sustainable.agriculture
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From: cyronwode@aol.com (Cyronwode)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Re: Looking for permaculture info
Date: 8 Nov 1994 19:35:27 -0500
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In article <1994Nov8.084831.17702@lugb.latrobe.edu.au>,
hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Dwayne Jones-Evans) writes:

<I'm currently attempting to set up a WWW page on permaculture. >

Do you want book titles, addresses, what? Let me know. I am currently
working on a book on sustainable ag from a gardener's (not farmer's) point
of view and have accumulated much infor on Permaculture i'd be willing to
share. 

catherine


From Cyronwode@aol.com Sat Nov 12 17:07:44 1994
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From: Cyronwode@aol.com
Message-Id: <941112170739_6248602@aol.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Looking for permaculture info
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Hi, thanks for the permaculture information. I am going to be developing a
resources appendix to the book i am producing for Seeds of Change, and i will
email you a copy of whatever data i accumulate when it is done, which will
not be soon, because at present i am only oin chapter 3 of the book. The
project will wrap up by april, 1995, so look for a list of books, addresses,
etc, before then.

catherine

From e3480209@sparc1.cc.ncku.edu.tw Tue Nov 15 01:02:47 1994
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From: e3480209@sparc1.cc.ncku.edu.tw
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To: london@sunSITE.unc.edu
Subject: Mailing lists of interest
Status: RO
X-Status: DA

Following your note in alt.sustainable agriculture, is it possible to subscribe to 
to permaculture-mg or does gated read only to the alt.sus.ag mean just that?
also how are the archives organised.? Is . What advice would you give a 
Permaculture group wishing to contribute articles on pc topics?
Many thanks Angus Claydon e3480209@ncku.edu.tw

From jbgFC@hamp.hampshire.edu Sun Nov 27 20:43:36 EST 1994
Article: 4623 of alt.sustainable.agriculture
Path: bigblue.oit.unc.edu!oit-mail2news-gateway
From: jbgFC@hamp.hampshire.edu (Joel B Gruver)
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: wood chip-digesting fungi and ground nuts
Date: 28 Nov 1994 01:05:16 -0000
Organization: sustag-public mailing list
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I have 2 info requests. 
First, I have access to large volumes of roughly 
chipped hardwood limbs with a small amount of foliage and coniferous 
limbs mixed in. (These materials were chipped by a road maintenance crew.)
Black cherry is probably the dominant hardwood constituent.
I am looking for a method of accelerating the decomposition of  
these materials so that I can use them as a soil amendment. I am 
wondering if there is a species of fungi that I can innoculate or 
encourage to accelerate the break down of such high lignin materials. 
Where can I find good information on the biochemistry of fungal digestion of 
high ligno-cellulosic materials ? Is there an edible species of mushroom 
that I can culture on this material ?

Where can I find information on the cultivation of the wild edible 
plant (Apios americana, common name: ground nut) ? Who is researching the 
economic potential of this plant ? Where can I obtain seeds, cuttings... of 
groundnuts selected for desirable traits ?

Joel Gruver
Hampshire College Farm Center
(413) 582-5348
jgruver@hamp.hampshire.edu


From adamf@vtaix.cc.vt.edu Tue Nov  8 06:38:25 1994
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Path: solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.mathworks.com!yeshua.marcam.com!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!munnari.oz.au!ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU!ucsvc.ucs.unimelb.edu.au!lugb!hiscdcj
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.agriculture,alt.co-ops,aus.conserve,alt.energy.renewable
Subject: Looking for permaculture info
Message-ID: <1994Nov8.084831.17702@lugb.latrobe.edu.au>
From: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Dwayne Jones-Evans)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:48:31 GMT
Sender: news@lugb.latrobe.edu.au (News System)
Organization: La Trobe University
Keywords: permaculture World Wide Web  
Summary: looking for permaculture or permaculture-related resources 
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Xref: solaris.cc.vt.edu alt.sustainable.agriculture:4413 sci.agriculture:2092 alt.co-ops:1456 alt.energy.renewable:2870

Hello,

I'm currently attempting to set up a WWW page on permaculture.  I know
of the stuff on sunsite, but I was wondering if anyone has anything else
that they would like placed on the web, or who know of other information
which is related to permacultural stuff.

I've just started looking into sources on the net, so I haven't come
across much stuff which is permacultural as yet, aside from sunsite.

I'd like to put as much information up as possible.  I can only
manipulate straight ascii files, however.  URLs would be ideal,
HTML-ised ascii text would be better, but I will HTML-ise ascii texts if
required.

If anyone knows of any other info which is related to permaculture, I'd
be interested in that too.

Dwayne.


--


-|-+-|-     r e t u r n     t o       t h e     s o u r c e     -|-+-|-
                 internet: hiscdcj@lux.latrobe.edu.au
-|-+-|-       OurAimIsWakefulnessOurEnemyIsDreamlessSleep       -|-+-|-

looking for * permaculture * resources on the net. Mail me with URLs 

NEXUS:.settling.the.electronic.frontier..     mail listserv@netcom.com
http://www.latrobe.edu.au/nexus/              "subscribe nexus-gaia" 

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Tue Oct 18 20:07:44 1994
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From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2ea3a2d1.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Acacia seeds (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>A lot of Australian native plants are listed in the latest Kimseed catalogue
>
>	KIMSEED
>	Australian Revegetation Corp.
>	42 Sarich Court
>	Osborne Park WA 6017 
>	Australia
>
>Phone +61 (0)9 446 4377		Fax +61 (0)9 446 3444
>
>The latest copy I've received arrived in late June this year.  There are some
>250 species of _Acacia_ listed.
>
>Prices for _A. auriculiformis_ are 	AUD190.00/kg, AUD9.50 per 25 g
>       for _A. mangium_ they are	AUD440.00/kg, AUD22.00 per 25 g
>
>Cheers,  Ian S.
>
>

Steve Hill from Kimseeds is an old friend. I'll see him tomorrow and we 
will try to get the Catalogue onto our web server.
 I'll try for an E-Mail address as well.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6026
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Feb 20 14:59:41 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Another Permaculture mailing list
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Hi everyone,

After the permaculture-mg mailing list was terminated
a few days ago, Lawrence London & I each initiated the 
creation of a new list, so we now have two new lists!
This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

First of all, to any of you who receive duplicate
postings or don't wish to participate in this list,
please send a message to listproc@envirolink.org
Include the line
    unsub permaculture
in the body of the message.
Or, write to yount@csf.colorado.edu and I'll remove
you by hand.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

To contribute to the list, send mail to 
	permaculture@envirolink.org

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
	Lawrence London,  london@sunsite.unc.edu
	Natasha Teoli,    nteoli@idirect.com
	Michael Yount,    yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.

Thanks,

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

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From: shea@xmission.com (Gary Shea)
To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list
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I used to have a permaculture list here at
xmission, but I dismantled it once I found
permaculture-mg.  I really don't see anything
but trouble in two parallel mailing lists...
what's the point?

At 12:57 PM 2/20/97 -0700, Michael Yount wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>After the permaculture-mg mailing list was terminated
>a few days ago, Lawrence London & I each initiated the 
>creation of a new list, so we now have two new lists!
>This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
>at Envirolink.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Shea                                          Salt Lake City, Utah
shea@xmission.com                         http://www.xmission.com/~shea

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Feb 20 19:08:46 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:59:49 MST."
             <199702202202.PAA13637@mail.xmission.com> 
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Gary,

I hear that what others call waste, permaculturalists view
as an opportunity.  There are lots of ways in which we
could divide the lists by subject or volume, but I think
Lawrence, Natasha, and I agree that it's best if you all
decide how to use our two lists.

As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Take care,

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

 :}I used to have a permaculture list here at
 :}xmission, but I dismantled it once I found
 :}permaculture-mg.  I really don't see anything
 :}but trouble in two parallel mailing lists...
 :}what's the point?
 :}
 :}-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 :}Gary Shea                                          Salt Lake City, Utah
 :}shea@xmission.com                         http://www.xmission.com/~shea

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 00:05:03 1997
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Feb 21 00:08:26 1997
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Feb 25 09:29:55 1997
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Position for an experienced organic gardener available at Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center.  Experience needed in organic food production in
high desert Southwest landscape, permaculture concepts, fruit orchard
development, and teaching of interns.  Vegetarian and spiritual lifestyle
in a health provider community on 166 permaculture-designed acres on a
mesa in the Patagonia mountains at 4,100 feet.  Please send resume,
letter of interest, and photo to: Gabriel Cousens, M.D. Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center, P O Box 1080, Patagonia, AZ 85624.  Call
520-394-2060 for further information.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Feb 28 12:38:46 1997
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I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas and have a gunite inground pool.  Every
summer I cringe at the amount of chemicals I have to put into the pool (and
back flush into my yard!).  I'd rather use it for rainwater harvesting and
fish production if there was some way to keep it clean enough to still swim
in.  Have anyone tried such a conversion or have any ideas about how to do
it?  Thanks, Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Mar  3 12:19:53 1997
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=======================================
PERMACULTURE mailing list at Envirolink
=======================================

From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu
Natasha Teoli, nteoli@idirect.com
Michael Yount, yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.
Thanks,
Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

==============================
Subscribing and unsubscribing:

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====
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details on the U.N.C. listserver which uses the ListProc software.
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To subscribe to a list, either use the WILP page:
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i.e., send email to:
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Leave the Subject: line blank. 

In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing:
subscribe permaculture yourname
or if you're unsubscribing type: 
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IMPORTANT:
==========
Write down and save the email ID you posted from and the 
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If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be useful;
also, this list is configured to only allow subscribers to 
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Contact: Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner 
with any questions, requests or suggestions.






From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar  4 19:19:03 1997
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From: "M. Mattox" <mmattox@u.washington.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: diversity v monoculture and climate change
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I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
appreciate the input. 
I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
studies would be helpful.
As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
Thanks, Megan

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar  6 12:44:47 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: mmattox@u.washington.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:12:40 PST."
             <Pine.A41.3.95b.970304160329.40098A-100000@dante12.u.washington.edu> 
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Megan,

You might try:

Scoones, I., et al., 1996, 
Hazards and Opportunities: Farming Livelihoods in Dryland
   Africa - Lessons from Zimbabwe, 
London and New Jersey: Zed Books 

It goes into detail about the different ways in which
rural people in Zimbabwe coped with the disastrous droughts
in 1991 and '92.  (By "systems" I'm hoping you mean human
communities, too.)

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu


 :}	
 :}I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
 :}biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
 :}climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
 :}appreciate the input. 
 :}I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
 :}studies would be helpful.
 :}As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
 :}the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
 :}be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
 :}Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
 :}Thanks, Megan
 :}

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar 11 09:33:52 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Fukuoka Videos
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Hello everybody,

I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
(NFRDC) in
Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks very much,
Maddy

Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 11 09:45:28 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Fukuoka Videos
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Hello everybody,

I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
(NFRDC) in
Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks very much,
Maddy

Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar 13 04:14:52 1997
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From: nexus@unisql.saitama-j.or.jp (Kenkichi Muramatsu)
To: permaculture@gn.apc.org, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos
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At 11:37 PM 97.3.11, Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine wrote:
> I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
> Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
> is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
> (NFRDC) in
> Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
> Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
> the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
> NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.
Hi
The address of Nature Farming Research and Development Center is as follows;
P.O. Box 26, Atami-city  Zip 413-91
Shizuoka Japan
Tel: +81-557-81-0567  Fax: +81-557-81-0560
More information, please visit Website
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/naturefarm.html
-----
Kenkichi Muramatsu
e-mail: info@nexus-i.com, nexus@saitama-j.or.jp
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/index.html



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From: seedsave@om.com.au (Seed Savers, Australia.)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
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Dear friends,

You may know of a Community Based Organisation or indigenous group needing
the kind of Community Seed bank we work on.

Our next Seed Saving, Banking and Networking Course is here in Byron Bay at
the Arts Factory on April 22nd, 23rd and 24th. For details, contact us
below.

Best regards,
Michel and Jude Fanton, Directors
Seed Savers' Network, Box 975, Byron Bay, NSW 2481, Australia.
Tel/ fax:  Int: 61-66-856-624.
Email: seedsave@om.com.au
homepage: http://www.om.com.au/seedsave

WHO WE ARE

The Seed Savers' Network is an Australian non-profit organisation. It is
the public component of The Seed Savers' Trust for Australia and the Seed
Aid Trust for overseas work and was founded by educators and authors Jude
and Michel Fanton in 1986. The principle aim of the Seed Savers is to
preserve agricultural biodiversity along with individual farmers, gardeners
and community groups. In this way Seed Savers has helped put the
conservation of original useful plants including fruits, vegetables,
medicinals and fibres on the public agenda. Over recent years, The Seed Aid
Trust has fostered similar networks in the Solomon Islands, Tonga, the
Caribbean islands, and is presently negotiating with other developing
countries.

Seed Savers' major activities include:
* Establishing community-based seed networks of useful plants in Australia
and developing countries - national, regional and local
* Establishing seed banks and field banks for non-hybrid locally-adapted
varieties
* Gathering and recording data on the varieties in the networks and seed
banks for easy public access, for research and for exchange between parties
* Education and training in all aspects of seed saving, banking and
networking for community development projects - domestic and overseas
* Promoting and publicising the need to conserve useful plants through the
printed and electronic media, addressing and conducting public meetings and
conferences
* Dissemination of information through publication of newsletters, two
versions of The Seed Savers' Handbook, in Australia and the UK, an Internet
page and regular media contributions
* Providing technical assistance to community development projects

Seed Savers exchanges seeds and shares information with:
Schools
Museums
Botanic gardens
Departments of Agriculture
Community and service groups
Family non-hybrid seed companies
Garden clubs and organic growers groups
Seed specialists from around the world
Scientific, research and education institutions
International, intergovernmental, national biodiversity, humanitarian
organisations and development agencies

WHAT WE BELIEVE IN

* Conservation of agricultural biodiversity achieved through the active
involvement of farmers and gardeners
* Local seed production using local knowledge and varieties
* Access to a wide range of useful plants for small sustainable
agricultural systems including urban food production leading to domestic
food sovereignty
* Environmentally sensitive small-scale community development based on the
sustainable management of local resources.

WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING

The growth of national seed networks is the basis of much of our activity
over the last eleven years. In Australia over 10 000 farmers and gardeners
have been involved in the network, exchanging seeds through the newsletter.
In other countries we have conducted Community Seed Bank Training,
resulting in seed networks being established, for example in Cuba, la Red
de Semillas is currently administered by the chief extensionist and the
Director of Projects at the Department  of Urban Agriculture, Havana.

COMMUNITY SEED BANK TRAINING
Australia:
Community Seed Bank Training (CSBT) has been provided to keen gardeners,
Seed Saver volunteers, garden club members and overseas NGO seed bankers.
Seed Savers has brought a strong seed saving component to over fifty
Permaculture Design Courses which Jude and Michel have lectured at or
taught.
Other countries:
The Seed Savers' Trust has been invited to train community based
organisations and department of agriculture extensionists, teachers,
nutritionists and women's groups to establish planting material seed
networks.
CSBT courses have been conducted with partner agencies and funding bodies
in these countries:
* Solomon Islands in October 1995 (with an organic farmers' network, Kastom
Garden Project, funded by AusAID through Appropriate Technology for
Community and Environment, Sydney),
* Cuba in January 1996 (with Fundacion por la Naturaleza y Hombre, funded
by AusAID through Permaculture Global Assistance Network),
* Tonga July 1996 (with an indigenous NGO, the Tonga Trust, a peak Tongan
women's group and the Education Department, funded by the Tudor Trust and
the Commonweath Foundation).
Seed Savers is providing ongoing technical assistance to these groups and
plans to provide training in other countries in 1997.
Further courses are now taught by some of the trainees to villagers in the
Solomons, school children in Tonga, and farmers and market gardeners in
Cuba.

MAINTAINING SEED BANKS AND DATABASES

Australian National Seed Savers Seed Bank, Byron Bay:
Over 4 000 samples of seed of useful plants have come through Seed Savers'
Seed Bank - all are catalogued, germination tested, repackaged and sent to
experienced growers. Each year 20 000 seed packets are filled and labelled
by volunteers and distributed free of charge to individual members of the
public, community groups, schools, development projects and small scale
seed companies.
Seed Savers Spring Newsletter has a list of planting material available
from subscribers which represents an in situ seed bank in several thousand
gardens curated by our network of seed savers.
The central database records a number for every seed lot donated to the
network. The database became computerised in July 1995 and now holds a
wealth of information about variety performance suitable for conducting
research programmes.

Other countries:
Seed networks have been set up and seed banks and databases have been
established in three other countries following our Community Seed Bank
Training. Databases of the seeds, and other propagules discovered,
collected and made available to the community have begun in these
countries.
In the Solomon Islands, the fourth newsletter/plant listing was published
in December 1996 and there is the Central Link Seed Bank and Gardens at
Burns Creek and a plant and seed bank at the Provincial Hospital on
Choiseul.
A seed network, la Red de Semillas, is currently administered by the chief
extensionist and the Director of Projects at the Department  of Urban
Agriculture, Havana.
In Tonga a seed bank has been developed by the Tonga Trust with a special
emphasis on distribution of open pollinated rare local corn, locally proven
vegetables and leguminous soil improvers. The first newsletter of the Save
Our Seeds seed network on local seed production and distribution was issued
in November 1996.

PERMACULTURE COURSES

Australia:
Seed Savers have taught eighteen two week Permaculture Design Courses and
several Introduction to Permaculture Courses. It has been a useful vehicle
to introduce seed saving to people with a wide spectrum of interests and to
bring it to the heart of sustainable systems.

Other countries:
Seed Savers has adapted the basic Permaculture Design Course and other
Permaculture courses to suit the conditions of several countries. Jude and
Michel have taught in a variety of situations including in the Republic of
Palau, South Africa, UK and Fiji.

PUBLISHING ANNUAL NEWSLETTERS

* The newsletter which has a 28 page format is sent to Seed Savers
subscribers, media and to many sister groups
* The current issue No. 21, Spring 1996  has a vast annotated list of 1100
varieties grown by gardeners and farmers across Australia. It is an
exciting representation of the diversity of vegetables, fruits, nuts and
other useful plants available.
* Autumn newsletter has articles about plant diversity, techniques of seed
production and storage, global and national issues including intellectual
property rights, food production and marketing systems and bio-engineering
such as labelling of genetically modified food stuff.

WRITING AND PUBLISHING THE SEED SAVERS' HANDBOOK

To produce the Handbook, Michel and Jude drew on their experience of their
many years of gardening where seed selection and correct storage were
fundamental components. Following the in-house publication, in early 1993,
demand is ensuring the ongoing publishing and distribution of The Handbook.
In the first four years 16 000 copies were sold, over 300 of which were
purchased by libraries.
A cool climate version of the Handbook was also published in UK by Grover
Books in 1996 and is now available throughout Europe.

INTERNET

Seed Savers' published a Homepage, in construction, with a database of 1100
seed entries, none of which are available through commercial channels. It
is supplied by and available to members: http//www.om.com.au/seedsave

CONDUCTING ANNUAL CONFERENCES

Every year since 1988 during the last weekend in October, Seed Savers has
convened an Annual Conference. Information is shared on the theme of
community conservation of plant genetic resources and Permaculture-related
subjects. Speakers include prominent authors and scientists, practitioners,
media personalities and sustainable agriculture strategists. There are also
workshops, a small trade fair, and a brisk seed exchange.

PARTICIPATING IN CONFERENCES

Seed Savers' Directors, Michel and Jude Fanton have delivered papers and
talks on a number of subjects related to the community conservation of crop
germplasm and Intellectual Property issues.
* Diggers Seed Club Campout Convention, Melbourne, March 1997
* International Workshop on Improving Seed Supply Strategies to Pacific
Island Countries, Nadi, Fiji, November 1996,
* Sixth International Permaculture Conference, Perth, October 1996,
* Traditional healers at the Pacific Festival of Arts, Apia, September 1996,
* National Student Conference on the Environment, Lismore, June 1996
* FAO Commission, NGO Summit on Plant Genetic Resources, Rome, April 1996,
* Fourth International Botanic Gardens Conservation Congress, Perth,
September 1995,
* Australian Council of Tree and Nut Crops, Lismore, August 1995,
* Australian Council for Overseas Aid, Canberra, August 1995,
* First International Women in Agriculture Conference, Melbourne, July 1994,
* Gardenesque, Vaucluse House, Sydney, March 1992.
We have not been able to respond to a number of invitations for lack of funding.

RESEARCH
Seed Savers Library holds over 800 ethnobotanical books, old seed
catalogues, a wide variety of national and international journals and a
databank of thousands of letters which have accompanied seed donations. It
is continually updated with donations of materials. This information source
is accessed by staff and volunteers to compile articles and conference
papers.


WHERE WE ARE GOING

We are currently negotiating the following projects:

Australia:
We are actively moving towards establishing regional and local networks
* with the national and regional garden club associations,
* with community garden groups, schools, organic growers clubs, regional
seed exchanges and permaculture associations.

Other Countries:
* Establishment of networks after Community Seed Bank Training in Vietnam,
Cambodia, India, Western Samoa, Kiribati, Philippines, Vanuatu, Fiji and
American Samoa.
* Scholarships for overseas students to study seed saving in Australia,
* Training of overseas volunteers who will work in agriculture programmes.

Globally:
* Seed Savers inaugurated The Global Permaculture Plant and Seed Exchange
at the Sixth International Permaculture Conference in Perth October 1996,
to facilitate movement of planting material for projects working with
peoples who have been marginalised by logging, ranching, export agriculture
and mining.
* Publication of the first Global Directory in 1997. If a sub or tropical
group wants to offer a seed listing please send one hundred words about it
now!

WHERE WE WANT TO GO

UPGRADING SEED SAVERS' PRESERVATION GARDENS
The Seed Savers  Office and Seed Bank presently occupy four rooms of the
rented home of the Directors, Jude and Michel Fanton, in suburban Byron
Bay. Easier public access and greater efficiency will be achieved by
separating the base from this domestic situation. Storage facilities in the
Seed Bank need upgrading and a dehumidified cool room for mid to long term
storage of posterity samples.

ESTABLISHING SEED SAVERS' PRESERVATION GARDENS
Preservation gardens where varietal diversity of useful plants is gathered,
trialled, demonstrated, propagated and disseminated; for open-pollinated
plant varieties. The gardens would surround Seed Savers' headquarters near
Byron Bay where it would serve as an education facility and as a living
central repository.

ESTABLISHING A TRAINING CENTRE FOR CSB COURSES AND INTERNS
Within the gardens there should be a facility for conducting talks,
lectures, and courses. We plan to have interns and trainees from overseas
for both short and extended periods of time.

EXTENDING COMMUNITY SEED BANK TRAINING INTO OTHER REGIONS
It is intended that seed networks be established in developing countries in
these regions: the Pacific, then South East Asia, South Asia, Africa and
South America; enquiries and invitations have already been received from
these parts of the world.

EDUCATION PROGRAMMES IN AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS
These include: input on Environmental Education Curricula in NSW, with
trials in Northern Rivers region, through environmental and agriculture
teachers; a programme of Local Original Fruit and Nut Trees in Schools and
an education kit containing teacher notes, slides and student workbooks.

TRAINING VIDEOS
These would provide a graphic display of seed saving techniques suitable
for schools, further education and general promotion.
Applied research and information gathering
As part of the Preservation Gardens, trials would be made on comparative
varietal performance. We also need to retrieve information that has been
sent to us over the years, and carry out a formal survey of our
subscribers, on varietal performance.

FURTHER PUBLICATIONS
To continue on from The Seed Savers' handbook we plan to produce a series
of handbooks on beverages, fibres, fodder crops, perfumes, spices and other
groups of useful plants. We also intend to write booklets on seed saving
and usage of plants for third world countries in collaboration with Dutch
and British aid agencies.

RECOGNITION OF OUR WORK

Seed Savers positive approach to the community conservation of plants has
attracted significant on-going media attention not only in Australia but
also in USA, France, Holland, South Africa and other places where Founding
Directors, Michel and Jude Fanton, have represented Seed Savers.

TV
A Big Country 1987
Country Wide 1988
Hinch at Seven 1990
Channel Seven Regional News 1991
Gardening Australia 1992
A Current Affair 1993
TF1 (France) current affairs 1993
News on RFO (Tahiti) 1993
The Today Show 1994
Burke's Backyard 1994
Totally Wild 1995
Link TV 1995
Gardening Australia  1996

RADIO
Australia:
Contributions to on-air panels of experts on national and state-wide radio
programmes.
Regular morning programme for twelve months on food and gardens (1994) and
regular interviews on state wide ABC programme on Permaculture (1994).
In depth interviews with Terry Lane (national ABC) and Andrew Ollie
(national ABC).
Guest appearances on talkback gardening shows with Jon Lamb (Adelaide ABC),
Shirley Stackhouse (Sydney commercial), Sandra and Graham Ross (Sydney
commercial), Colin Campbell (Brisbane ABC) and Lucy Broad (country NSW
ABC).
Interviewed on Green and Practical and other ABC environmental programmes.
Telephone interviews with numerous country radio stations in all states of
Australia.
Local FM stations.
Overseas:
Several items on Radio Australia's "One World" and other programmes, in
French and English, with translation into several Pacific languages
broadcast across the Pacific 95 - 97
Radio Happy Isles Solomon Islands 96
Radio Tonga 96
Several Cuban programmes in Havana 96
In the UK: The BBC Food Programme with Derek Cooper, agricultural programme
on Radio 4 - 96.

MAGAZINES
Articles on Seed Savers have appeared in the following magazines and journals:
Australia:
Grass Roots (8 items) and regular articles 86 - 96
Earth Garden (numerous articles) 88 - 96
Simply Living (3 items)
Going Organic 86
Agricultural Readers Digest, 88
Green Leaf Garden Series 88
Time Magazine Australia 11/88
Lifestyle Gardening Series 89
Australian Organic News 89
Work Matters 89
Organic Growing several articles 86 - 89
Complete Gardener Buying Guide 91
Homegrown 92
Countryman
Women's Weekly (2 items, 10/93 and 6/96)
Women's Day 93, 96
Who Weekly 10/5/93
Australian Senior Citizen 93
New Idea, 94
Your Garden 85 &10/95
Gardening Australia magazines (3 items, 93, 94, 95)
The Australian Gardener (several items) 87/93
The Gourmet Traveller 1/94
Inflight magazines 94
The Australian Post, 12/8/95
Overseas:
Les Quatre Saisons du Jardinage (France) 89
Nature et Progres (France) 91
De Kleine Aarde (Holland) 91
Odyssey (South Africa) 7/92
The Furrow (USA) Issue 2, 93
Rustica (France) 94
The Avant Gardener (USA) 94
Growing Today (New Zealand) 94
Pacific Island News (Fiji) 95
Geneflow, FAO of United Nation Rome (Italy) 96
Common Path of the Commonwealth Foundation, (UK) 96
South Pacific Agricultural News of the Institute for Research, Education
and Training in Agriculture (monthly contributions) 96 - 97
Pacific Islands Forest and Trees (FAO and UNDP) Dec 96
Regular column in the Permaculture International Journal 95 - 97

DAILY AND WEEKLY NEWSPAPERS
Australia:
The Sydney Morning Herald (4 items) in Good Living Magazine, & Employment
Section,
The Sun Herald,
The Daily Telegraph Mirror,
The Australian (5 items) and its Weekend Australian Easter 93, and the
Weekend Review,
The Sunday Age,
The Adelaide Advertiser,
The Western Australian 2/10/95,
The Hobart Mercury
The Canberra Times (3 items),
Sunday Sun,
Courier Mail in its Monitor section and its Sunday Mail (two items) 19/2/89
& 95,
The Land 10/96
The local Northern Star (numerous articles over the years)
Acropolis Australian Greek newspaper



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Mar 16 08:39:41 1997
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Internships in Permaculture

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have created openings for two interns at our
newly-acquired facilities in central Florida.  We seek people with vision,
self-motivation, and balanced senses of adventure and boundaries.  Work will
include both office work for our publishing and teaching activities and
outdoor work as we create a permaculture design for our own place.  Specific
tasks will be balanced between routine work and projects for which the intern
takes primary responsibility. Duration of programs is negotiable though we
prefer a potential period of one year or more. With enough time, interns can
develop profit-sharing enterprises using our resource base.

Arrangements can be made for suitable interns to reside on site as our
guests.  There will be the opportunity for each intern to develop a personal
garden area, if s/he desires, to manage in any way consistent with ecological
responsibility and organic practices.  Simple vegetarian basics and cooking
facilities can be provided. (Meat eaters are welcome--we just don't want to
pay for it.  There may be surplus fish and game.)
Tobacco smokers will not be considered because of plant diseases carried on
tobacco and its smoke.  No drugs or illegal substances of any kind are
acceptable here.

There is also opportunity for select Permaculture Design Course graduates to
fill these slots as apprentices in our APT (Advanced Permaculture Training)
program.

For details, send a concise statement to us directly at the email or U.S.
mail address below.  Hardcopy inquiries should be typed and confined to one
page. Please confine email to about 500 words.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.
 

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 18 22:40:02 1997
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Subject: re: Bermuda grass
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Bermuda grass and Johnson grass... hmmm... don't you just love those range
scientists? 

For those so lucky as not to be acquainted with Bermuda grass, it is a
stoloniferous grass which spreads via its very-tough stolons on several
levels, from right at the surface to 8 or more inches below the surface. It
is very difficult to remove all the stolons from all the levels, even by
digging and sifting the soil. One stolon internode will happily propagate a
new plant. NEVER till Bermuda grass! Bermuda grass spreads rapidly both
below ground with it's stolons, and by above-ground stems which can grow a
couple feet in a month easily, jumping low barriers (buried sheet metal,
etc.) and quickly rooting along the stem at internodal joints. Incredible
stuff, drought and heat-resistant as can be...

I've had the best luck keeping Bermuda grass out of uninfected beds with
the buried sheet metal trick, but the beds must be watched and above-ground
spreading stems removed regularly. I haven't found any way to deal with
Bermuda grass which doesn't involve ongoing vigilance... Digging sprigs as
soon as they are seen, and digging them all the way down, helps keep total
work down a LOT in the long run.

For preparing new beds in Bermuda grass, the cardboard and compost trick
(scalping grassed areas and covering with overlapped cardboard and compost
or soil) actually works very well in early spring IF the cardboard is
well-lapped, wetted before spreading soil (to keep soil from getting
between the laps), AND if the edges are protected (sheet metal, etc...)
from new invasion. Some grass will usually survive and need digging...
waiting too long to dig surviving grass is a mistake, as it reestablishes
quickly and deeply.

I have found a good winter crop of Ryegrass to be pretty effective at
drowning Bermuda grass in areas where winter freezes kill Bermuda grass
back to the goround if the Ryegrass is left to grow from mid-winter onward.
By the time weather warms and the Bermuda grass wants to start growing, the
Ryegrass will be thick and tall and the Bermuda grass attempting to sprout
will languish, as it likes full sun. This often needs repeating. Forage
Sorghums (Sudangrass, Redtop, etc.) can do some smothering in the summer if
the Ryegrass has knocked the Bermuda grass back somewhat already. 

Ticks (like grasshoppers) are discouraged by mown grass, and dogs get a bit
of relief from ticks and fleas by having good doses of raw garlic and/or
brewer's yeast slowly introduced into their diets (not cheap, but does
actually work pretty well, though of course not perfectly). Probably not
much of any way to actually get rid of them, especially in tall grass or
woods. 

Ticks, fleas, Bermuda grass, nutgrass, IRS, mosquitoes... what fun would
life be without these little reminders that chaos is ever watching over our
shoulders, waiting...eh?

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 19 10:44:43 1997
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:  re: Bermuda grass
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In a message dated 3/18/97 10:35:44 PM, jackrowe@compuserve.com (jack rowe)
wrote:

>For preparing new beds in Bermuda grass, the cardboard and compost trick
>(scalping grassed areas and covering with overlapped cardboard and compost
>or soil) actually works very well in early spring IF the cardboard is
>well-lapped, wetted before spreading soil (to keep soil from getting
>between the laps), AND if the edges are protected (sheet metal, etc...)
>from new invasion. Some grass will usually survive and need digging...
>waiting too long to dig surviving grass is a mistake, as it reestablishes
>quickly and deeply.<<

REPLY:  It is unnecessary to "scalp" herbaceous vegetation before sheet
mulching.  In my opinion, leaving the grasses uncut, or other weeds, and just
flattening them and mulching over them weakens the plant much more.  I've no
scientific research to back me up, only 30 years experience in sheet
mulching.

Pigs will eradicate Bermuda grass and covert the solons to pork.  Chickens
eat it and will destroy it eventually if stocked at a rate in excess of 70
birds per acre -- probably more like 100 birds, and left on the area for a
few years.  Deep mulch in the poultry forage helps discourage the grass while
culturing invertebrates that contribute a lot to the nutrition of the birds.
 By developing pie-shaped yards around a poultry house, all weeds can be
eliminated from an area and then it can be planted.  This can be an
agroforestry, of course, birds and trees sort of work together you know, and
you eventually you will have a really productive oasis.  Planting comfrey
about 6 or 8 inches around the perimeter of the exterior fencing will provide
some green forage for the birds and eventually help to form a barrier to
invasion by stolons.  If the bermuda grass gets ahead of the poultry in one
of your pie areas, toss in a few piglets.  It is easy to confine pigs with
poultry netting if you run two lines of electric fence around the inside of
the fence.  The poultry netting slows down the pigs and grouds them rather
nicely while the electric shock provides ample discouragement.  Pigs despise
electric fence and a 10 foot wall of concrete could not be more effective.
 The height of your electric depends, of course on the size of your pigs.
 Use common sense.

One more tip:  geese also like stolons and to a lesser extent, so do ducks.
 If you must plow, and avoid it if you have the discipline, they will go
through and pick out all the stolons, nut grass bulbs, etc.  Chickens can be
added for larger ants and termites, and both ducks and chickens control
grubs.

Basically, if you can afford the poultry netting, or come up with something
similar such as woven fence with living fenceposts and split bamboo, you can
turn the bermuda grass into an excuse for a very productive little area so
that you can graze the rest.  

Now if someone can tell me how to control bermuda grass when it goes aquatic
it will be a fair swap.  In one pond that we have, it holds its own against
water hyacinth(1) and in our canal is as serious a blockage as willow.  I'm
betting on Asian water buffalo, but as they swim underwater they could be
difficult to confine in places.  any ideas?

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From askpv@ozemail.com.au  Tue Mar 25 18:42:03 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC39D2.5D6EF740@slwol2p61.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'prmclt mailing list Aust'" <perma@eepo.com.au>,
        "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'permanet@sunsite.unc.edu'" <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>,
        "'steved@ncatark.uark.edu'" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Subject: RE: Ozark Challenges
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:08:02 +-1100
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Status: RO
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STEVE< how are you?
haven''t you guys heard of the new technology, heaps better than 
poisons?
I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost solutions.
Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this technology
so I advise you to seek them, I have an email somewhere for those interested.

The technology is simple, they use SUPER CIRTICAL hot water and it
kills all vegetation without poisons, and leaves a flattened mat of fibre in which
you plant the next day!!
it can even kill woody weeds - up to a certain thickness so is good for spot weeding around
established trees. it can also be very selective - used to mark lines in lawns for tennis etc.
If I had the time and interest I would start up a frachise myself. as It such wonderful potential -
as it goes I haven't got the time and apart from doing my own site - i haven't got the sales
skills.

lets try everything else  before the easiest most conventional way.
April



----------
From: 	Steve Diver[SMTP:steved@ncatark.uark.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 25 March 1997 22:16
To: 	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	Re: Ozark Challenges

Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant





From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 25 19:09:29 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:08:02 +-1100
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'prmclt mailing list Aust'" <perma@eepo.com.au>,
        "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'permanet@sunsite.unc.edu'" <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>,
        "'steved@ncatark.uark.edu'" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Subject: RE: Ozark Challenges
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Status: O
X-Status: 

STEVE< how are you?
haven''t you guys heard of the new technology, heaps better than 
poisons?
I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost solutions.
Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this technology
so I advise you to seek them, I have an email somewhere for those interested.

The technology is simple, they use SUPER CIRTICAL hot water and it
kills all vegetation without poisons, and leaves a flattened mat of fibre in which
you plant the next day!!
it can even kill woody weeds - up to a certain thickness so is good for spot weeding around
established trees. it can also be very selective - used to mark lines in lawns for tennis etc.
If I had the time and interest I would start up a frachise myself. as It such wonderful potential -
as it goes I haven't got the time and apart from doing my own site - i haven't got the sales
skills.

lets try everything else  before the easiest most conventional way.
April



----------
From: 	Steve Diver[SMTP:steved@ncatark.uark.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 25 March 1997 22:16
To: 	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	Re: Ozark Challenges

Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant





From YankeePerm@aol.com  Wed Mar 26 10:06:36 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:05:02 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <970326100501_653944306@emout10.mail.aol.com>
To: askpv@ozemail.com.au, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, perma@eepo.com.au,
        permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        steved@ncatark.uark.edu
Subject: Re: RE: Ozark Challenges
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 3/26/97 9:48:36 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April
Sampson-Kelly) wrote:

>I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost
solutions.
>Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this
technology
>so I advise you to seek them,
,,<<

Technology cannot be copyrighted.  It can only be patented.  Lots of people
in Florida use boiling water to kill fire ants and weeds.  We also use
ammonia for both.  Oviously, this is spot treatment not broacscale for
invasive grasses.

The natural way to kill solonaceous grasses is to fence the area to pigs.
 They will eat all the stolons.  In permaculture, we use the least technology
to do the job, no.  

In the states, we can rent, or presumably buy, propane steam generators which
would serve the function that April describes.  We also have, in blueberry
country, motorized flame throwers that weed by burning off surface
vegetation.  Blueberries get off on this and it keeps them producing.  I'm
describing the procumbant, lowbush groundcover type blueberry, of course,
though highbush varieties recover quickly from burning, quicker than most
competition also.  However this eats a lot of organic matter and the areas
where this is practiced are degraded.  Since blueberries are much more
tolerant of degraded soil than of competition, it works for them but at the
expense of the soil.  

Pigs are less intense energy sources, and get some of their energy from the
rhizomes they are to destroy. They are also self-replicating and can be eaten
when they have finished withthe job.  They have many other potential
functions ina  permaculture design Other approaches need to improve on pigs
in these regards or they are not the minimum change (energy) for the most
benefit, one of our over-riding criteria.    Such approaches might include
teaming up pigs with other animals.  They will not eat chickens that they
have know from piglethood, for example, though they will eat strange chickens
even in the presence of their piglethood poultry friends.  I imagine a food
shortage could void that generalization but mistreating animals, as with
inadequate feed and forage, is not part of permaculture either.  So it isn't
an issue.

I'm sure that a tactical nuclear weapon will also erradicate stolonaceous
grasses.  Lets just get back to permaculture, guys.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 26 10:14:42 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: askpv@ozemail.com.au, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, perma@eepo.com.au,
        permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        steved@ncatark.uark.edu
Subject:  RE: Ozark Challenges
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 3/26/97 9:48:36 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April
Sampson-Kelly) wrote:

>I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost
solutions.
>Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this
technology
>so I advise you to seek them,
,,<<

Technology cannot be copyrighted.  It can only be patented.  Lots of people
in Florida use boiling water to kill fire ants and weeds.  We also use
ammonia for both.  Oviously, this is spot treatment not broacscale for
invasive grasses.

The natural way to kill solonaceous grasses is to fence the area to pigs.
 They will eat all the stolons.  In permaculture, we use the least technology
to do the job, no.  

In the states, we can rent, or presumably buy, propane steam generators which
would serve the function that April describes.  We also have, in blueberry
country, motorized flame throwers that weed by burning off surface
vegetation.  Blueberries get off on this and it keeps them producing.  I'm
describing the procumbant, lowbush groundcover type blueberry, of course,
though highbush varieties recover quickly from burning, quicker than most
competition also.  However this eats a lot of organic matter and the areas
where this is practiced are degraded.  Since blueberries are much more
tolerant of degraded soil than of competition, it works for them but at the
expense of the soil.  

Pigs are less intense energy sources, and get some of their energy from the
rhizomes they are to destroy. They are also self-replicating and can be eaten
when they have finished withthe job.  They have many other potential
functions ina  permaculture design Other approaches need to improve on pigs
in these regards or they are not the minimum change (energy) for the most
benefit, one of our over-riding criteria.    Such approaches might include
teaming up pigs with other animals.  They will not eat chickens that they
have know from piglethood, for example, though they will eat strange chickens
even in the presence of their piglethood poultry friends.  I imagine a food
shortage could void that generalization but mistreating animals, as with
inadequate feed and forage, is not part of permaculture either.  So it isn't
an issue.

I'm sure that a tactical nuclear weapon will also erradicate stolonaceous
grasses.  Lets just get back to permaculture, guys.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Mar 29 13:29:14 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change 
In-Reply-To: <199703061729.KAA27266@csf.Colorado.EDU>
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>>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:12:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "M. Mattox" <mmattox@u.washington.edu>
Subject: diversity v monoculture and climate change
>>	
I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
appreciate the input. 
I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
studies would be helpful.
As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
Thanks, Megan
>>

> From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
> You might try:
> 
> Scoones, I., et al., 1996, 
> Hazards and Opportunities: Farming Livelihoods in Dryland
>    Africa - Lessons from Zimbabwe, 
> London and New Jersey: Zed Books 
> 
> It goes into detail about the different ways in which
> rural people in Zimbabwe coped with the disastrous droughts
> in 1991 and '92.  (By "systems" I'm hoping you mean human
> communities, too.)
> 
> Michael
> yount@csf.colorado.edu


Also appropriate might be the book:

"Food From Dryland Gardens"

An Ecological, Nutritional & Social Approach 
to Small-Scale Household Food Production

by: David Cleveland and Daniela Soleri
    Illustrated by Daniela Soleri
    Center For People, Food, and the Environment, CFPE
    344 South Third Avenue
    Tuscon, Arizona, 85701, USA
    with support from the
    United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF

Copyright 1991



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr  2 14:39:24 1997
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From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Sustainability and development
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Hi there,

I am in contact with the australian organization BODHI who is looking forward to
support sustainable ways to improve health, education and the environment,
 particularly in developing countries.

See page: <http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/bodhi.html>

I was thinking about how it may be possible to bringt together the power of
this development organization with the permaculture-principles. One of the
directors, Dr.Colin Butler knows about PC and met Bill Mollison .

He says:

>However, I agree the theory of permaculture is good.
>
>I think BODHI would support permaculture if a local community wanted
>to use these principles and we had the resources to do so but so far
>we haven't done much along these lines.

Maybe someone likes to jump in with some ideas?


Dr. Colin Butler: <mailto:csbutler@peg.apc.org>
(Alternative address: <mailto:colin.butler@lshtm.ac.uk> )

Thank you for any support!


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr  3 06:30:33 1997
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        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Sustainability and development
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Greetings Thilo Pfennig:
	Thanks for your note to the permaculture mailing group. One way to start
would be for you to develop a list of active permaculture teachrs and
consultants and the areas in which they work.  Then, when opportunities for
collaboration come up, you have a resource base.  I imagine that on request
to this group you could generate a useful list of names.  In my view,
permaculture is best introduced as training to the local people who have
indicated that they want such training.  Then permaculturists can be
available for support to a local group that develops its own designs.  We
have designed a three-year program of teaching and support for such
situations.  
	Permaculture design principles can be used to design such an approach.  Once
all the responses to your post are in, such a design process can begin.  
	It is very good to hear of this potential marriage.
For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

In a message dated 4/2/97 2:35:30 PM, Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo
Pfennig) wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>I am in contact with the australian organization BODHI who is looking
forward to
>support sustainable ways to improve health, education and the environment,
> particularly in developing countries.
>
>See page: <http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/bodhi.html>
>
>I was thinking about how it may be possible to bringt together the power of
>this development organization with the permaculture-principles. One of the
>directors, Dr.Colin Butler knows about PC and met Bill Mollison .
>
>He says:
>
>>However, I agree the theory of permaculture is good.
>>
>>I think BODHI would support permaculture if a local community wanted
>>to use these principles and we had the resources to do so but so far
>>we haven't done much along these lines.
>
>Maybe someone likes to jump in with some ideas?
>
>
>Dr. Colin Butler: <mailto:csbutler@peg.apc.org>
>(Alternative address: <mailto:colin.butler@lshtm.ac.uk> )
>
>Thank you for any support!

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr  4 23:03:34 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: [permaculture mailing list available] (fwd)
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Dee Dee wrote:
> 
> A mailing list to discuss permaculture and related topics is
> now available.
> 
> To subscribe to the list send email to
> permaculture-request@GlobalGarden.com with the body of the message
> containing:
> 
>     subscribe
> 
> To subscribe to the digest version of the list, send the above message
> to permaculture-digest-request@GlobalGarden.com
> 
> --
> 
> Dee Dee
> dd@sgi.com

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr  8 12:34:39 1997
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Subject: Last Billboard: Permaculture Workshop
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Ozark CoHousing in Fayetteville, Arkansas is sponsoring an affordable
permaculture workshop the evening of May 9 through May 11.  The cost is $95.

Presenter Patricia Michael is a social and environmental activist, designer,
lecturer and educator who studied permaculture with Bill Mollison in
Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Central America and the U.S.  A
Vice-Chancellor of the International Permaculture Academy at Tyalgum,
Australia, Ms. Michael emphasizes ecological designs that maximize the
potential of both humans and nature.

What will you get out of the workshop?  
--A basic understanding of permaculture.  
--Design tools and ways to apply them to your home and farm.  
--The ability to analyze a site for best use of natural resources, buildings
and energy.
--Slides and stories of permaculture from around the world; 
--Site analysis for a planned botanical garden; and 
--A fun, hands-on experience with other cool people!

For more information, contact Karen McSpadden at kmcs@aol.com

From adamt@peg.apc.org  Wed Apr  9 16:42:16 1997
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From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT)
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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

Filename: c:\user\adamt\cuba\voluntee.r\orientat.ion\HAVAD01.DOC	


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr  9 16:52:24 1997
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        leftlink@@vicnet.net.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

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From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Apr  9 19:06:23 1997
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From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT)
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

Filename: c:\user\adamt\cuba\voluntee.r\orientat.ion\HAVAD01.DOC	


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 12:11:15 1997
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From: ecoeco@caribe.net (egidio reale)
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I would like to subscribe to this list, could you please tell me how to go
about it?
Thank you very much,
Egidio Reale


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 13:16:38 1997
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>Visit our new Permaculture Primer Web Site at this wonderfully easy to
>remember address:

Are you shure about that? ;)

>http://hueylong.cadgis.lsu.edu/lhin/visitor/html/primer/

Looks like ROT-13. ;)

--
<http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/>


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 15 14:52:01 1997
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Subject: Permaculture these days..
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What permaculture offers us is a way to bring back the ways of the
hunters/gatherers. A way of life that potentially restores a balance to
humanity.  A way where the holy dollar is not as holy as the fruit and nuts
we gather from our trees. A way that restores the sanity of humanity by
creating plenty that restores our faith in prosperity.  lack=fear
plenty=faith. Restoring our faith, restores sanity..faith in the provision
of the trees, the roots, the grasses, the herbs and the flowers to give us
food and sustain us.

So this is the season where we place into the earth, roots of shrubs and
trees and berries and we plant our grasses and herbs and we bring to our
homes the birds that live with us, and our children will remember the trees
we planted and come there often to eat of them and they will be thankful to
us to have a haven we have created for them. And their children will
remember that it was the elders that planted these trees and fruits that
sustain them and they will feel the abundance we intended for them and they
will remember the heritage we give them in the planting. 

It's the only thing I want to do. It is the only thing that matters to me
these days.  It's about taking on the reponsibility for our children
everywhere and through time. And for the hope of our civilization.

Highly recommended*** by Daniel Quinn: "Ishmael" and " The Story of B"..They
were a 'click' for me..

Hope you're all enjoying the Spring! Be very careful of your backs! We need
them!
Vinca

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr 16 12:59:50 1997
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From: xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: northern climate
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Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier

PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
bermuda grass!



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 17 07:51:08 1997
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In a message dated 4/17/97 3:32:17 AM, xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire) wrote:

>Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?
>
>that is 60 degrees north,
>short summers with long days
>cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
>I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
>and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.
>
>I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.
>
>yours
>
>Xavier
>
>PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
>So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
>bermuda grass!

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 17 21:26:16 1997
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To: "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'xavierd@sn.no'" <xavierd@sn.no>
Subject: RE: northern climate
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I remember Norway fondly, and have a friend in Sweden who
is into native foods.
I think one should always look at native vegetation - it's traditional
uses as building, weaving, clothing material, as well as food.
As to the topics that are bantered about, with enough interest 
the group speaks about nearly anything.
Quite obviously, when we look at bio-diversity and diversity is a BIG
part of our sustainability in food supplies and of course permaculture
design, we find that in nature there is greater diversity near the tropics.
But people need food where they are, and if people are indeed
cold or hungry then permaculture will be practiced and talked about there.
I have seen topics related to your neighbouring countries like Finland
on Aquaculture (Polyculture).
But on the whole, 
most people must be pretty comfortable with the way things are,
In Australia it is our concern for the environment rather than hunger or cold
that stimulates action.
April

----------
From: 	Xavier Dequaire[SMTP:xavierd@sn.no]
Sent: 	Thursday, 17 April 1997 2:55
To: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	northern climate

Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier

PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
bermuda grass!






From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 03:55:58 1997
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>In Australia it is our concern for the environment rather than hunger or cold
>that stimulates action.

There is a big concern for environment here too.

The north sea provides oil and gas, this makes Norway a very very rich country,
and pressure on environment gets higher though consumption habits, road
construction and industrial wastage.

The climate implies high energy consuming, because everything is though
through the consumption model: e.g. people eat tomatoes and cucumbers all
year round though they would hardly grow in the summer on freeland, except
in microclimates.
the tomatoes are grown in energy/chemicals intensive greenhouses i Holland,
and Norway in the summer, and they do not taste anything...

That's where permaculture design gives inspiration to alternative and
integrated food production and energy saving solutions, and it works.
There is luckylly very little diseases because of the cold climate.

Peace,

Xavier


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 09:35:14 1997
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In a message dated 4/18/97 3:59:15 AM, xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire) wrote:

>There is a big concern for environment here too.
>
>The north sea provides oil and gas, this makes Norway a very very rich
country,
>and pressure on environment gets higher though consumption habits, road
>construction and industrial wastage.
>
>The climate implies high energy consuming, because everything is though
>through the consumption model: e.g. people eat tomatoes and cucumbers all
>year round though they would hardly grow in the summer on freeland, except
>in microclimates.
>the tomatoes are grown in energy/chemicals intensive greenhouses i Holland,
>and Norway in the summer, and they do not taste anything...
>
>That's where permaculture design gives inspiration to alternative and
>integrated food production and energy saving solutions, and it works.
>There is luckylly very little diseases because of the cold climate.
>
>Peace,
>
>Xavier

A major environmental issue for Scandanavia, including Xavier's region, that
I don't read much about is the inevitable shift of the Gulf Stream.  Whether
the official scientific line is right and we are getting a "Global Warming"
or whether adocates of John Hamaker's line are correct, and "Global Warming"
puts energy into a refrigeration mechanism, brining on the next (overdue
anyway) Ice Age, the temperature differences between tropical sources of the
Gulf Stream and the arctic climes where it finally veers southward again will
shift.  The temperature difference is a difference drives river within the
ocean, which otherwise would be content to sit where it finds itself.
 Increase the temperature difference and the river runs faster.  Decrease it,
the river runs slower.  

A small change in average thermal difference between the tropics and the
arctic waters means a huge difference in momentum.  Remember your secondary
school physics:  F=MV(squared)  Any increase in the velocity of the stream is
squared and then multiplied by that imponderable mass of water to give the
change in momentum.  Obviously, momentum affects the location and arc of the
turning of the Gulf Stream from a northerly flow to a southerly flow.
 Probably absolute temperatures are important in determining the exact place
where the turn begins. 



The fragmentary information that I have indicates that the gulf stream has
been warmer as it passes Scandanavia, causing glaciers to melt.  The lighter
fresh water, also very cold, floats and the warmer salty water is submerged
so that points south, for example in the region of Normandy, experience much
cooler weather.  There are probably other complexities that no one has
noticed yet, and probably some that they have but that I don't know about.

The point here is that ANY region that depends on large scale ocean
convection currents for its climate, currents such as the Gulf Stream and the
Japan Current, will be in for weather which they probably cannot anticipate.
 For example, a small shift in the arc of the Gulf stream early on could be a
reall boon for Greenland and a curse of death for the Celtic Isles (UK and
Eire) and Scandanavia and a drastic problem for western Europe.  The effects
of a shift in the Japan current would likely kill fewer people, but the North
American Pacific Northwest might find that its population emigrates on a
large scale.  Maybe April knows better the currents in the Southern
Hemisphere.  Given reports that the Antarctic is getting even colder than
usual in winter, with depletion of upper atmpsphere ozone implicated, there
is no doubt reason for similar concern there.  The temperature differential
is probably changing to a larger degree in the SH!

2)  High (meaning big numbers) latitudes, North and South, need to be
concerned about ozone depletion as it permits increased UV radiation.  That
we are unable to anticipat the effects is little cause for comfort.  Ozone
depletion is in my view by a large measure the most serious ecological
concern on planet Earth and we are not really taking it seriously enough.
 The fact that the high latitudes get fried first is little comfort to the
rest of us, as the main photosynthetic engines of the planet may be affected.
 Major shifts in the chemical composition of the atmosphere, for example, may
not be permanent, but they might be enough to snuf the candle of our species,
among others.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 13:18:33 1997
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My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 

Comments from down under?

MIlo Clark
Berkeley CA USA



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 17:09:18 1997
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From: Rhys Howitt <rhys@macquarie.matra.com.au>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: northern climate
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Milo wrote:
>My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
>without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
>me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 
>
>Comments from down under?
>
That's my subjective assessment too.  The weather bureau publishes daily 'UV
ratings' and these seem to go up and up on average, though I haven't done a
full study of it.

In the primary schools now, children are not allowed to go outside to play
without a hat.  When ours do, they get promptly crisped (true, they do have
fair skin and obviously little prior exposure!).  I too have been surprised
at getting sunburn in quite brief exposures.  Some days are worse than others.

Rhys Howitt
Crossroads Medieval Village Co-operative
Yass, Australia

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Apr 19 07:48:21 1997
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To: Milogic@aol.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, YankeePerm@aol.com
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: northern climate
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In a message dated 4/18/97 1:17:23 PM, Milogic@aol.com wrote:

>My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
>without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
>me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 
>
>Comments from down under?
>
>MIlo Clark
>Berkeley CA USA

When visiting ther from here in up/over in 1987, I learned that skin cancer
was already 100 X normal in the southernmost portions of the country. 

Serious as this is to people who get it, it is not the main ecological
problem associated with increased UV penetration of the atmosphere.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Apr 20 01:40:29 1997
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From: Harald Wolf <allegra@islandnet.com>
To: "'Xavier Dequaire'" <xavierd@sn.no>,
        "permaculture@envirolink.org"
	 <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: RE: northern climate
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Dear Xavier Dequaire,

Your E-mail of 17APR re northern climate was forwarded to me by a friend.

In case it is of interest, note a book written by me, published last year,
entitled "Bare Poles: Building design for high latitudes".

You can see something on this at my web site:

http://www.magic.ca/~strub/index.html

>From there you will see a link ("Carleton University Press") to the book at
the publisher's web site for more information on the book and how to order it.

Best wishes,

Harold Strub


----------
From:  Xavier Dequaire[SMTP:xavierd@sn.no]
Sent:  April 16, 1997 09:56 AM
To:  permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:  northern climate

Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Apr 20 09:28:01 1997
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I have privately received a request to expand on my remark that human cancer
is not the most serious ecological problem from increased penetration of UV
into the atmosphere. (Not that skin cancer is at all less than a horrible
fate.) I must be brief this morning:

1)  There is evidence that ozone depletion and the resulting increase in UV
penetration have increased the severity of winters over Antarctica.  This is
well described in an article by John Gribben:  Climate & Ozone:  The
Stratospheric Link.  It was first published in Pacific World (New Zealand)
and then reprinted with permission in our publication, The International
Permaculture Solutions Journal.  In our reprint, we also included extensive
commentary by myself.  That is in Vol. I, No. 3, nominally the soils issue,
but as usual in our journals we published some articles on other themes that
we did not want to delay getting out.  Email me privately for subscription
info.  Pacific Institute of Resource Management, who publish Pacific World,
are out of Wellington--they have changed their address very recently and I
don't think I've entered the updated address in our TRIP (The Resources of
Internatoinal Permaculture) database yet.  If you really want the publication
fromt hat resource and have sincerely tried to get in touch with them, then
email me and I'll sort through the pending work heap (nay, mountain) to
locate PW and the new address.  (If you email me with this request tommorow,
I'll know you haven't tried very hard and ignore you.)

2)  UV is the most energetic form of light.  Mostly, the stuff in the
universe acquires added energy by moving faster.  However, it appears that
the speed of light is a limit on how fast stuff can move.  So light acquires
more energy by moving MORE INSTEAD OF FASTER.  It vibrates between positive
and negative polarity more often per second or per foot(meter)--same thing at
the speed of light--so you could say it is vibrating faster, though it isn't
going faster.  This greater frequency of vibration gives it more energy.
 Light that cannot be seen, that vibrates more frequently than visible light,
is called ultra violet because the higest frequency visible light is
"violet."  (Light really doesn't have color--that is a psychological
phenomenon--and too far afield to get into)  When graphed for frequency,
ultra violet is right next to violet, hencethe name.
	Now it is the added energy, to simplify things a bit, that gives you a
sunburn, skin cancer.  UV also kills more directly.  It is used in some water
purification systems to kill small organisms--zaps 'em.   
	It happens that the great engines for plankton production on Earth are at
the very high latitudes, Antarctic and Arctic.  Here's a genuine edge effect
at work.  Mechanims are probably several and they probably amplify one
another.  First, there is the intrusion of fresh water over salt.  This
always seems to stimulate aquatic life, thoough I've not been able to figure
out the specific mechanisms. Second, since this is often glacial melt-off,
there is the remineralized rock dust that could stimulate life.  While this
may play a role, remember that the oceans are already mineral sinks and the
remineralization fanatics may have latched onto a fals example here.  In any
event, we get tremendous crops of plankton--enough to attract plankton
feeding organisms such as krill and whles in what seems to us an univiting
environment.

	Now we are creating the great water stilizer effect at the poles, zaping the
organisms in water with UV.  These plankton engines are phenomenally
important to global ecology, probably in ways we won't understand fully until
they fail and we see the environment unravel at unprecedented speed.  How
interesting! well gasp.  Much of Gaia is plankton and we are messing way
beyond our reach to repair when we fry that part of her.  

3)  The greenhouse effect, whether it ultimately results in "Global Warming"
or whether it triggers glaciation (someone else can explain this one), is
probably right up there as a major concern to people, though not of as much co
ncern to Gaia who runs these little fevers and, pardon the expresssion,
weathers them nicely.  Since UV is the most energetic amount of light,
admitting more UV to our part of the atmosphere lets in a lot more energy
than if it were merely additional brightness.  Moreover, we have contaminated
the atmosphere with much increased proportions of gasses and particles that
absorb radiation and hold it close to the surface longer.  Either we will get
glaciers faster or global warming, or, as I suspect, we will melt the ice
caps so fast that before the ice age mechanisms come to play we get
precession and then an ice age.  Now the fact that MAYBE we can have large
rises in sea level (in which case glub glub for me in Florida), then a
flip-flop of the earth with universal earthquakes and mile high tidal waves,
and then an ice age, that should be enough to make us a little more careful
about dumping our shit into the atmosphere, no?  We don't want to know if
this really will happen.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr 23 20:03:45 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Global Warming/the Gulf Stream
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Hi Dan and everyone on the list,

(Dan wrote a very interesting piece on the changes to the Gulf Stream and
its effects on Scandanavia.)

There is a school of thought that subscribes to the theory that the Gulf
Stream is shifting. It would seem very possible to me as our planetary
weather patterns are being distrupted by Global Warming. I do not have a
reference to the scientific research but could find out more if you like.

On a personal level, we have had a six week drought here which is highly
unusual. Usually it is 'March winds and April showers'. There has been none
of either and my plants are wilting in the ground, despite mulch and other
moisture preserving techniques. The blossom is abundant and beautiful on
the fruit and nut trees as a consequence and as long as we don't get very
hard frosts it will be a good year for fruit (if we can water). We are
currently installing a 1400 gallon rainwater harvesting system to drip
irrigate the shrubs and trees. We had to get planning permission for it
from the local authority who had no precedent on such a system. Inevitably
the bureaucracy cost us money.

Drought is an increasing problem here, as is erosion of the land by the
rising sea. What I would like to gather now is a series of statistics about
climate change, soil erosion, environmental degredation etc. which clearly
spells out our crisis as I do not think most people in Britain believe it.
They have only just accepted that Global Warming may just be a reality and
some people think it might be good because it will get warmer in Britain
and we'll end up with a Mediterrean climate! They are barking mad. So if
anyone on the list has some statistics re. the above (like every year an
area of top soil the size of the state of Kansas is lost on the Earth),
please could you email me with them and their source. They do have to be
sourced though, please.

Incidently, I get the impression from the northern climate debate that we
are all rather cosy in this temperate, northern climes. In fact, poverty is
an increasingly serious problem in Britain after so many years of
Conservative rule. Many members of our so-called affluent society are
developing diseases associated with malnutrition. People just can't afford
to eat fruit and veg.

The positive side of this is an increase in community gardens which teach
people how to grow food like Springhill Community Gardens in Bradford,
Yorkshire. As a nation, most of us do not have these skills (I certainly
didn't have a clue until a few years ago, nor the opportunity to learn) and
do not know where to start. Local government has begun to fund permaculture
based projects to help with this and release land. A big problem is the
stranglehold of private ownership on land and premium prices. Many
allotments and school grounds also are being sold off for development. I
really cannot emphasis enough the disasterous policies of our current
government (but have little faith in all the other politician too!). Let's
hope they don't get voted back in.

I hope isn't too long for you.

Best wishes to all,

Maddy

Maddy Harland, Editor
Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU, Britain.
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500. Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834.
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 24 10:29:38 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Global Warming/the Gulf Stream
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In a message dated 4/23/97 8:01:45 PM, you wrote:

>Hi Dan and everyone on the list,
>
>(Dan wrote a very interesting piece on the changes to the Gulf Stream and
>its effects on Scandanavia.)
>
>There is a school of thought that subscribes to the theory that the Gulf
>Stream is shifting. It would seem very possible to me as our planetary
>weather patterns are being distrupted by Global Warming. I do not have a
>reference to the scientific research but could find out more if you like.
>
>On a personal level, we have had a six week drought here which is highly
>unusual. Usually it is 'March winds and April showers'. There has been none
>of either and my plants are wilting in the ground, despite mulch and other
>moisture preserving techniques. The blossom is abundant and beautiful on
>the fruit and nut trees as a consequence and as long as we don't get very
>hard frosts it will be a good year for fruit (if we can water). We are
>currently installing a 1400 gallon rainwater harvesting system to drip
>irrigate the shrubs and trees. We had to get planning permission for it
>from the local authority who had no precedent on such a system. Inevitably
>the bureaucracy cost us money.
>
>Drought is an increasing problem here, as is erosion of the land by the
>rising sea. What I would like to gather now is a series of statistics about
>climate change, soil erosion, environmental degredation etc. which clearly
>spells out our crisis as I do not think most people in Britain believe it.
>They have only just accepted that Global Warming may just be a reality and
>some people think it might be good because it will get warmer in Britain
>and we'll end up with a Mediterrean climate! They are barking mad. So if
>anyone on the list has some statistics re. the above (like every year an
>area of top soil the size of the state of Kansas is lost on the Earth),
>please could you email me with them and their source. They do have to be
>sourced though, please.
>
>Incidently, I get the impression from the northern climate debate that we
>are all rather cosy in this temperate, northern climes. In fact, poverty is
>an increasingly serious problem in Britain after so many years of
>Conservative rule. Many members of our so-called affluent society are
>developing diseases associated with malnutrition. People just can't afford
>to eat fruit and veg.
>
>The positive side of this is an increase in community gardens which teach
>people how to grow food like Springhill Community Gardens in Bradford,
>Yorkshire. As a nation, most of us do not have these skills (I certainly
>didn't have a clue until a few years ago, nor the opportunity to learn) and
>do not know where to start. Local government has begun to fund permaculture
>based projects to help with this and release land. A big problem is the
>stranglehold of private ownership on land and premium prices. Many
>allotments and school grounds also are being sold off for development. I
>really cannot emphasis enough the disasterous policies of our current
>government (but have little faith in all the other politician too!). Let's
>hope they don't get voted back in.
>
>I hope isn't too long for you.
>
>Best wishes to all,
>
>Maddy

Hi Maddy:

You seem awfully sane for someone with that name.

Our dear friend Joanna Campe publishes Remineralize the Earth journal which
was inspired by John Hamaker's work on glaciation and remineralization cycles
and is a good source of the info from that angle.  I'm a frequent contributor
so you know that it has to be good !  :-)  Her email address is
ReminEarth@aol.com

Don Weaver, who worked with Hamaker on his book SURVIVAL OF CIVILIZATION has
been monitoring reports of climate shift.  His address is in TIPSY #4, our
old permaculture yearbook, which you probably have. I'll see if I can run
down his email address, if any.  I haven't seen any of Dons packages for a
while but back issues would be very useful even if he has moved on to other
tasks.  

Joanna distributes Survival of Civilization, by the way, which is a good
statement of the greenhouse-leads-to-glaciers theory, though he is more than
a bit cranky about his efforts to gain the attention of the US congress, a
small organization to which he ascribes far more importance than they deserve
anyway.

Given the fact that in the UK you have infinitely better weather than you
should expect at your latitude, any climate shift means that you are screwed,
to put the matter delicately.  The idea that it can get better than it is
already is a fantasy only supportable by deliberate stupidity--genetic
stupidity doesn't suffice.  If we do get runaway global warming, how much of
your bit of rock will be above water?

If you folks in the rest of the world are yawning, remember that this country
is very, very well armed and traditionally has taken anything it wanted that
it could take.  Imagine their approach if they actually need your land and
food and fresh water.  You have a hybridization of Viking bloodthirstiness
and Roman beauracracy and expansionism in that little place and it has
greatly disturbed remote peoples before.  No one should be complacent.  Worse
will be if the country that issues MY passport decides it wants what you
have, because we have nutto people who will destroy something to own it, but
we have a bit more wiggle room (though an itchier trigger finger) than the
Brits.   In other words, if one or two or a dozen very well armed countries
get displaced, the whole world population suffers.  It won't be like
bangladesh where a flood comes in, wipes out a significant fraction of the
population, and that is the end of the matter.  Believe it.  I don't know how
we design against this, but we have to think about it.  We permaculturists
may be the best hope for putting nucleii in place that can survive and
prosper.  Probably we should concentrate in overcrowded places with too many
people and not enough food, as they will be least attractive to older white
guys in suits who like air conditioned buildings and three lavish meals
daily.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 29 00:00:20 1997
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From: ken@eastwind.org
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: cedar chips OK?
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	Hi there --

	Anyone know about -- or had experience with -- using cedar chips?
Are they OK to use?  We've got access to a free source of cedar chips, and 
are trying out using them in our herb garden as mulching for the aisles.  
(Putting down brown paper bags first, then the chips on top.)  Also 
wondering about using cedar chips in a composting outhouse for helping to 
cover up the smell... any advice would be much appreciated...

	Ken Bezilla
	East Wind Community
	ken@eastwind.org

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 29 09:25:03 1997
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        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: cedar chips OK?
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In a message dated 4/29/97 12:03:20 AM, ken@eastwind.org wrote:

>	Hi there --
>
>	Anyone know about -- or had experience with -- using cedar chips?
>Are they OK to use?  We've got access to a free source of cedar chips, and 
>are trying out using them in our herb garden as mulching for the aisles.  
>(Putting down brown paper bags first, then the chips on top.)  Also 
>wondering about using cedar chips in a composting outhouse for helping to 
>cover up the smell... any advice would be much appreciated...
>
>	Ken Bezilla
>	East Wind Community
>	ken@eastwind.org

Hi Ken:

Well there's nothing wrong with cedar chips unless you have to pay for them.
 

Since cedar chips are rot-resistant, they are less desirable than other forms
of carbon for litter in compost toilets.  The importance of this depends on
the design of your toilet--it would be less inportant in a double-vault home
built model with capacious shit  chambers.

Generally, if your toilet stinks (You smell, your toilet stinks--Dr.
Johnson's classic distinktion.), you are running it wrong our you used a
shitty design. I'd guess both. You need sawdust, ground corn cobs, chopped
straw, or other high-surface area high carbon materials to absorb the
moisture. Piss should not go with the faeces but in a separate container to
be used directly on the garden.  If you don't do this, your shit pile will
always stink and sweet episodes are just to remind you how bad it usually is.
 You can correct the smell over the short term with fresh grass
clippings--probably a half bushel more or less, depending on the size of the
chamber.  You don't want too much as it will form a gley.  But they do knock
down the stink--don't ask me why.  This is not a permanent solution as if you
DEPEND on grass clippings, you will eventually get a gluey mass that is
harder to deal with than the original stink.  

Basics are:

1)  Air tight design.  This means a seal around the shit hole when not in
use.
2)  Solar chimney-type vent tall enough to suck fumes over the level that
noses of folks on the ground or in nearby buildings.  
3) GENEROUS use of high-carbon materials after each dump.
4)  Diversion of urine to a separate barrel for direct use on garden or, if
you MUST, comopost piles.  (I have to agree with Mollison here that most
compost piles waste effort and nutrient.)

We have a few publications that may be of interest.  I hesitate to metion
them here because I've been flamed for doing so in the past.  You have my
email address.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May  1 12:45:35 1997
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Subject: RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems Usenet newsgroup
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From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



From london@nuteknet.com  Thu May  1 12:37:58 1997
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Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:43:10 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@nuteknet.com>
Organization: Venaura Farm -=+=- InterGarden
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From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



--------------25134FB9613E--

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May  1 23:45:20 1997
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=======================================
PERMACULTURE mailing list at Envirolink
=======================================

From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu
Natasha Teoli, nteoli@idirect.com
Michael Yount, yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.
Thanks,
Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

==============================
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====
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==========
Write down and save the email ID you posted from and the 
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If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be useful;
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Contact: Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner 
with any questions, requests or suggestions.






From london  Mon May  5 12:22:49 1997
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Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970505113730.11911A-100000-100000-100000-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
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also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon May  5 12:36:26 1997
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also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 16 10:00:50 1997
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 16 May 1997 08:51:27 CST
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	I am going to be going on vacation in N California this summer.  I
am wondering if anyone knows of permaculture sites/resource centers I
could visit?  Thank you.
					Jonathan Picard

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon May 19 12:43:45 1997
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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Subject: urine as a source of nitrogen
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I understand that urine is an excellent source of urine and that human 
urine can be used around garden plantings when mixed in a 1:10 ratio with 
water.

Sounds great -- inexpensive and readily available, however I'm concerned 
about potential pathogens from the urine. I've heard that human pee is 
sterile, but I've also read in the _Humanure Handbook_ that urine can 
contain pathodgens.

My question is: is it safe to use pee from a healthy human on the soil 
around one's nitrogen loving vegetables (i.e. brassicas, lettuce, etc.)

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue May 20 08:35:22 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: urine as a source of nitrogen
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	I have been using urine for about 20 years.  No problem yet.
	Joe's Humanure Book is very well researched.  So well that any litte detail
that could be relevant is included.  It is possible to pass diseases from
urine but in most cases highly unlikely.  If your urinary tract, and or that
of your friends and family, is riddled with disease, by all means use the
urine in a hot compost pile that needs the moisture.  (Do not add it to a
composting toilet.)  Or piss in the woods.
	Because it is so well researched, we distribute Joe's book.  However he is a
bit of a priss when it comes to urine.  How anyone who handles shit from
himself, friends and family day after day could be put off by a little piss
is anyone's guess.  Well, diversity is the name of the game.  (I'm going to
blind CC this note to him--presumably he will take it in the spirit of the
broader context.)  
	The Chinese have been adding urine to gardens for years.  Their numbers have
not exactly been reduced to a straggling few by the consequent plague.
 Lighten up.
	Urine is not merely a source of N but also K and trace minerals.  Strangely,
it contains little P.  Once an element gets into your system (as opposed to
just taking the convoluted tunnel that you are wrapped around), urine is its
primary mode of egress.  A secondary mode is sweat, if you do that a lot,
mensus in breeding-age females, and very minor modes of sloughing off skin,
hair, nails and I suppose the random dismemberment.  However the liver-to
kidneys-to bladder system is the only mechanism for principally disposing of
used and undesirable materials.  
	An aside here--maybe someone with training in physiology can help me here.
 What happens to the phosphorous.  Is it consumed in the continuing
conversion of cartiledge to bone and in the stiffening of bones themselves?
 In that case, can reduction of P in diet help limit osteopoisis?  As I said,
this is aside the point but an interesting avenue of questioning, I think.
	Regarding rates of dilution, that is real arbitrary.  10:1 is nominal.  I
use much greater rates in transplanting seedlings and even in potting up
fairly developed young trees.  I've spoken to people who use urine straight
up, as it were, on onions as I have with celery.  My observation, though, is
that in dry weather, additional irrigation is required when using urine,
presumably because its salinity creates osmotic pressure in the wrong
direction.  On the other hand, I find it quite practical to walk between rows
with inverted urine jugs during a rain storm.  Rate of dilution?  --depends
on how much it happens to rain.
	Generally, urine fertilization works best in highly organic soils and very
best in deep mulch which has had its capacity to bind to the fertility
factors in the urine developed by gradual increases in doses. 
	We have a special soils issue of our publicaton THE INTERNATIONAL
PERMACULTURE SOLUTIONS JOURNAL that covers all major gardening methods
suitable in permaculture.  Email me for details.  Other than that, I'm off
this topic for a while.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed May 21 18:22:11 1997
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To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: groundhog troubles
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Help, I planted some cabbage and broccoli plants and a groundhog ate them.
Will a fence stop him if it goes down into the ground will he dig under it?
 Should I trap and relocate the groundhog, poison it (this seems really
cruel to me, I don't want to do that), spray the plants/seedlings with a
hot pepper or garlic spray?  Are there any other options?  

Andrew Erb erba@lincolnu.edu


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 23 03:02:10 1997
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To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: urine, manure, electrolytes
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ON 5/20 Dan H. wrote: >>What happens to the phosphorous? Is it consumed in
the continuing conversion of cartilage to bone and in the stiffening of
bones themselves?  In that case, can reduction of P in diet help limit
osteoporosis?<<

Manure is relatively rich in Phosphorous, as organic fertilizers go, and,
as mentioned, urine is relatively low in P. Phosphorous and Calcium are
both cycled through our bones and cellular colloids on a continual basis,
in an interesting relationship whereby our bodies attempt to maintain a
balance in the blood and other colloidal tissues (cells, bones, etc. -- we
are basically formed of a variety of amazing colloidal gels of varying
composition and function, none of them static). The attempt to maintain a
balance between P and Ca often results in the loss of Ca from bones and
cellular fluid as Ca is taken from bones to keep the cellular fluids
balanced between the P and Ca. The leaching of Ca results because P is more
plentifully taken into our bodies in our diets. The old soda-pops with
phosphoric acid bubbles were very hard on women’s' (and men’s) bones,
rapidly-leaching Calcium. 

This is analogous to the relationship between Sodium and Potassium, both
are relationships are electrochemical processes. In a natural diet,
Potassium is more plentiful than Sodium, and so in hot, humid climates salt
must be taken in to balance the potassium (if you sweat too much and then
cramp, eat bananas or blackstrap molasses; if you get dizzy and queasy, eat
some salt -- half a teaspoon with a glass of water... water taken without
salt when feeling hot and queasy can make you quite sick). 

At any rate, I find a quart of urine in a 5-gallon bucket of water to be
great for container plants, 2 quarts in a 5-gallon bucket is plenty strong
for growing plants and will result in quick salt build-up in container
plants. A person can collect a quart of water a day without worrying about
holding it in when away from home to collect every drop. If you produce
much less than this, drink more water -- it's good for you. This amount of
urine will keep your garden looking very nice. 

The fact that N and K are quite water-soluble, and so lost in urine whereas
P is relatively insoluble in water and so stays in the feces is
representative of these elements' behaviors in the soil, where N and K are
easily leached by rain or irrigation, whereas P is held relatively tightly
by the soil's organic matter and clays. To loose P from the soil you need
plant roots or erosion, and since the P binds most plentifully to the
smallest soil particles (since it sticks ("adsorbs") to surfaces, and the
smaller the particles the more the additive surface area per volume). For
this reason, a little erosion goes a long way, since it is the most
finely-divided --and therefore richest in adsorbed P -- particles of soil
which are washed away most readily.

Moral (ethic?) of story: recycling of both urines AND manures is necessary
to maintain a balance of these nutrients in the soil ecosystem. Health
codes prohibit using human manures -- even composted -- on food plants
(who's watching?), but manures can easily be used to fertilize the meadow
areas we all keep in and around our gardens for mulch production, and
P-rich mulches then transferred to the garden areas, if this level of
caution is desired. 

Risking long-windedness, I'll repeat Jeavons' advice to keep 70 percent of
a growing area in mulch production, and 70 percent of the much area (or
around 50 percent of total area) in carbonaceous mulches, the rest in
nitrogenous mulches, in order to keep nitrogen and carbon cycles balanced
in the gardens and mulch-producing areas (remember to return some mulch
materials to the mulch fields). I've found this advice to result in very
nice soil, with practically no inputs from outside the area (if you're not
using manure, add bone meal or rock phosphate in moderation). Soil tests
will tell you if some element is missing from your system.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue May 27 13:37:26 1997
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture design course 7/12-27, MD/PA area
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Permaculture Design Course
Heathcote Intentional Community
July 12-27 

To make the transition toward a sustainable society, it is imperative that
we take responsibility for our own lives and meet our basic needs for
food, shelter, energy, gainful employment, and supportive community.  The
purpose of this course is to offer you practical training in permaculture
design techniques so that you can begin the application of these skills at
home and in your local community.

The course will cover the standard Permaculture Design Course curriculum,
with emphasis on working with natural systems. This course will be an
immersive experience in community living and permaculture design.

Permaculture education is a synthesis of classroom and participatory
learning, interactive education (observation exercises, role playing, guided
meditations, visioning, group sharing, and hands-on exercises), design
team work & presentation, and creative problem-solving.

Design course topics

Ecological living
Ecosystem dynamics
Identifying issues & establishing goals
Permaculture principles
Mapping & tools
Energy analysis and landscape design
Building soil and erosion control
Conserving water and nutrient flows
Forests, hydrology and microclimates
Growing & eating: Gardens, edible landscaping
Livestock and wildlife
Local useful and edible plants
Waste as a resource
Skills for creating community
Living well in cities: Urban permaculture
Implement what you learned: Take it home


Who should attend?

The course will be useful for people with varying levels of experience
from students and lovers of nature to design professionals. The main
requirement is a commitment to implementing sustainable living practices
in rural or urban areas.

Design course instructors

Dawn Shiner, a Permaculture Designer, herbalist, and homeschooling mother,
began teaching Permaculture in 1987 at Slippery Rock University and has
done numerous land consultations, workshops, and design courses.
Delighting in exploring minimal-impact lifestyles, Dawn and her family
recently founded Dancing Green in Cochranton, PA, to teach, demonstrate,
and model Permaculture principles of design to the general public.
Apprentice teacher Frank Hyldahl has extensive experience in gardening,
foraging, nursery, and site implementation.

Site

The Heathcote Community Conference Center is located 30 miles north of
Baltimore, MD, and 20 miles south of York, PA. It is nestled in a narrow
valley on a 37 acre community land trust.

Food, Lodging, and Other Amenities

Vegetarian meals, lodging in the conference center bunk room, and tent
sites are included in the design course. Care for children age five and up
is available with prior notification at an additional cost. Special
accomodations may be requested in advance.

Cost: $775, $25 discount if register before June 1,
limited work exchange and tuition assistance available)

Prerequisite: read Mollison and Slay's Introduction to Permaculture
        


Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed May 28 03:58:56 1997
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Subject: Earth Network Update - May 1997
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>From: Earthnet <earthnet@terra.ecouncil.ac.cr>
>Date: 27 May 97 16:38:49
>To: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de
>Subject: Earth Network Update - May 1997
>
>The Earth Network for Sustainable Development - May 1997
>
>HIGHLIGHTS OF RIO +5
>
>Rio+5 Breaks New Ground for Sustainable Development
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The Rio+5 Forum, held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil from 13-19 March, broke
>new ground by bringing together an unprecedented range of experienced
>and committed "stakeholders" in the development of innovative
>strategies for moving sustainable development "from Agenda to Action" --
>the theme of the Forum.
>
>Organized and coordinated by the Earth Council, the Forum was the focal
>point of a year-long process of consultations and research involving
>nearly 6,000 organizations worldwide.  The Forum engaged the following
>diverse groups in forging new links and alliances, and generated a rich
>harvest of experiences and strategies:
>
>- National Councils for Sustainable Development (NCSDs)
>- Community-based organizations and local authorities
>- Business and industry organizations
>- Science, technology and research institutes
>- NGO networks
>- Financial institutions
>- UN development agencies
>- Environmental organizations
>- Philanthropic organizations
>- Values and education groups.
>
>The Forum generated global media coverage and concluded by reaching a
>"multi-level" consensus on "systems-based" approaches for addressing
>key sustainable development challenges across disciplines, sectors,
>institutional and national boundaries.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio)
>
>
>A Vision for NCSDs
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>A fundamental aim of Rio+5 was to strengthen and advance the work of
>NCSDs around the world.
>
>116 Representatives from 71 National Councils (63 from NGOs and 53 from
>government) elaborated a common vision of NCSDs as leading
>"multi-stakeholder" bodies for "operationalizing" the economic,
>environmental and social goals of sustainable development at the
>national and local level.
>
>A series of critical issues and related actions were defined by NCSDs in
>a document which was subsequently presented to the Fifth Session of the
>UN Commission on Sustainable Development (UNCSD) in New York in April.
>
>The document also makes the following key recommendations for guiding
>the successful establishment and evolution of NCSDs:
>
>- Governments should create and support high-level, multi-stakeholder
>NCSDs which bridge the public and private sector, and are capable of
>participating in international decision-making processes;
>
>- NCSDs should have the widest possible representation of major players
>in the public and private sector, including all major groups identified
>by Agenda 21;
>
>- NCSDs should be  task-oriented advocates of integrated policies for
>sustainable development -- promoting participation; educating and
>communicating; monitoring and evaluating progress; disseminating and
>promoting tools for sustainable practices; and supporting local action;
>
>- Multilateral institutions -- the World Bank, UNDP, UNCSD, UNEP,
>regional banks and others -- should involve, rely upon and support
>NCSDs, in order to elevate sustainable development in the global agenda.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/particip)
>
>
>Global Governance Panel Convened
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>A central precept emerging from the Rio+5 Forum was that global
>agreements and global sustainability must be built on local and national
>sustainability. A high-level panel was convened on this subject on March
>18, co-chaired by Earth Council Chairman Maurice F. Strong and Israel
>Klabin,  President of the Brazilian Foundation for Sustainable
>Development.
>
>The Global Governance Panel was moderated by Klaus Schwab, Founder and
>President of the World Economic Forum. The panelists were: World Bank
>President James Wolfensohn, who spoke on "The Role of International
>Financial Institutions"; UNDP Administrator James Speth who presented
>"The Role of International Development Agencies"; Stephen Schmidheiny,
>Founder and President of of the World Business Council for Sustainable
>Development (WBCSD),  who spoke on "The Role of Business"; and Katia
>Drager Maia, Coordinator of the Brazilian NGO Forum and Earth Council
>Executive Director Maximo Kalaw, who presented "The Role of Civil
>Society".
>
>The panelists pointed out respective challenges for governments,
>business and NGOs in integrating the social, economic and ecological
>dimensions of sustainable development into their policies, programmes
>and actions. The presentations also identified the need for sustainable
>development to become the integrating framework for UN institutions, and
>for global accords to be made relevant to local and national
>sustainability.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio5/18en.html)
>
>In a separate meeting with representatives of NCSDs, Mr. Wolfensohn
>expressed the World Bank's commitment to reforming its policies towards
>sustainable development by the year 2000. He also pledged the Bank's
>future support to NCSDs, with the specific aim of increasing civil
>society participation within their structures.
>
>
>President Cardoso Addresses Forum
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso, acting as Honourary
>President of the Rio+5 Forum, delivered a nationally-televised speech to
>Forum delegates on "The Role of State". In his remarks of 18 March,
>President Cardoso stressed that sustainable development is impossible
>without the establishment of democracy and equity at all levels of
>government and society, from national to local.
>
>President Cardoso commended the Forum for "being of great profit to all
>of us who are interested in advancing new practices for the
>transformation of our society and the achievement of sustainable
>development."
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio5/mar18/cardosoen.htm)
>
>
>Regional Alliances Formed
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Rio+5 Forum delegates resolved to form stronger collaborative
>partnerships for advancing sustainable development at the regional
>level, based on mutual priorities and needs. Two important agreements
>for Latin America were reached in this respect:
>
>a) Forum delegates from the Southern Cone region of Latin America
>adopted the "Declaration of Santiago", which mandates the creation of
>the Alliance for Sustainable Development of the Southern Cone (ALISUR)
>by civil society as well as business organizations in Brazil, Uruguay,
>Paraguay, Chile and Argentina. The new alliance was endorsed at the
>Forum by other civil society organizations throughout Latin America.
>
>b) Delegates from the Caribbean region resolved to create a similar
>multi-stakeholder Alliance for Sustainable Development of  the Caribbean
>(ALICAR). The proposal was subsequently endorsed by Caribbean member
>states of the Latin American Parliament (Parlatino) at a meeting held in
>Aruba in May, and an organizing committee has already been established
>with the participation of civil society organizations, government
>representatives and the Earth Council.
>
>(contact: Lorena San Roman, Regional Coordinator for Latin America
>and the Caribbean -- lsanroma@terra.ecouncil.ac.cr)
>
>
>Rio+5 Reported to UNCSD and NGOs
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Major conclusions and recommendations of the Rio+5 Forum were presented
>to a Ministerial Session of the UNCSD on 8 April by Maurice Strong.
>
>Mr. Strong summarized the Rio+5 process and its complementary value to
>the UN's own five-year review process. He emphasized the experimental
>nature of Rio+5 in generating a rich harvest of "action experiences",
>while providing a framework for linking, integrating and managing a
>wide range of sustainable development issues.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio/followup/strong.htm)
>
>On 11 April, Maximo Kalaw delivered a statement to a UNCSD plenary
>session which summarized the consultative and research processes of
>Rio+5. He emphasized Rio+5's contribution to enlarging the concept of
>"common but differentiated responsibilities" beyond the financial and
>develoment capabilities of countries, to encompass major stakeholders of
>civil society in the building of an integrated and coherent management
>system for sustainable development.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio/followup/kalaw.htm)
>
>In a separate "question and answer" session held on 21 April with some
>NGOs active within the UNCSD process, Mr. Kalaw explained the
>complementary role of Rio+5, and clarified related issues of "political
>space" and funding. A cooperation agreement was produced to guide the
>Earth Council's future relations with members of the NGO Steering
>Committee of the UNCSD, and national NGO networks..
>
>
>Earth Charter Draft Approved
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Another key outcome of the Rio+5 Forum was the approval and presentation
>of the Earth Charter "benchmark draft" by the Earth Charter Commission,
>whose inaugural meeting during the Forum capped a year of initial global
>consultations on the Charter's structure and contents. The meeting was
>co-chaired by Commission members Mercedes Sosa, Mikhail Gorbachev, and
>Jim MacNeill.
>
>The benchmark draft combines principles contained in various existing
>charters, codes of ethics and declarations. On 8 April, the benchmark
>draft was presented by Maurice Strong to the Opening Plenary Session of
>the UN Commission on Sustainable Development (UNCSD). On 15 April,
>Mikhail Gorbachev delivered an internationally televised speech at
>George Washington University in Washington, DC., in which we spoke at
>length about the benchmark draft and Earth Charter process.
>
>Delegates of the Rio+5 Forum have been invited to organize consultation
>meetings on the benchmark draft within their own constitutencies,
>organizations and networks, as part of ongoing and expanding
>consultations worldwide. The results of these consultations will be
>integrated into a new working draft for possible review and approval by
>the Earth Charter Commission in mid-1998. This would help build momentum
>for its presentation to the United Nations, expected by the year 2000.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/value)
>
>
>Next Steps for the Earth Council
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Rio+5 also pointed to the need for the Earth Council to intensify its
>programme for NCSDs. In response, the Earth Council is embarking on a
>three-year programme to support and strengthen approximately 70 NCSDs.
>The programme will initially focus on strengthening  NCSDs in Bolivia,
>Costa Rica, Finland, Japan, Mexico, Niger, Philippines, Poland and
>Uganda -- all of which participated actively in Rio+5, and  have
>demonstrated a political willingness to promote multi-stakeholder
>participation.
>
>In addition, the Earth Council is seeking initial funding support for
>the establishment of four regional secretariats to work directly with
>NCSDs, primarily in the development of training programmes and forums
>on specific sustainability issues such as biodiversity, economic reform
>and ecology, and energy efficiency.
>
>
>"Multistakeholder" participation in the Rio +5 Forum
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>NGO networks:                         	         32
>Community-based Organizations (CBOs):             7
>NCSDs:                                          116
>Local authorities:                               15
>Business:                                        26
>Women's Networks:                                 9
>Indigenous Peoples:                               9
>Youth:                                           12
>Values and Educational Groups:                   29
>Philanthropy:                                     2
>Policy, Science and Technology Institutions:     96
>UN and International Financial Organizations:    41
>Donors:                                          16
>Special Invitees:                                23
>Earth Charter Commission:                        14
>Media:                                           12
>
>
>Total delegates from South:                     262
>Total delegates from North:                     197
>
>A database of Rio+5 participants is currently under development at
>the following URL:
>
>http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/scripts/dbml.exe?Template=/FoxDB/rio5conf/rio5conf.db
>m
>
>*****
>
>For more information about Rio+5, the Earth Charter and other Earth
>Council initiatives, please re-visit our WWW site at:
>http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr or contact us directly via e-mail.
>

<http://www.comlink.apc.org/lav/lav/menschen/thilo.html>
LAV-Homepage: <http://www.comlink.apc.org/lav/>


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May 29 16:28:30 1997
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        PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Shared ideas...
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Interesting and intriguing ideas from Keith Elwell-Gavins and Joe Dalsin...
Both ideas are valuable and would interact well with each other... 

Sharing designs is a wonderful idea, especially to we here in the Temperate
Zone, where the techniques of Permaculture as specified in the Design
manual sometimes need a degree of adaptation. I often find confusion among
experimenters resulting from taking tropically-adapted ideas verbatim from
"The Book" and applying them in higher-temperate latitudes. And the entire
permaculture "thing", albeit composed of many, many old -- even ancient --
ideas, is "new" enough that the sharing of ideas and applications is still
very important.

Keith's CorelDraw idea is great, the use of vector-maps instead of bit-maps
good also... iconic symbols could "easily" be produced by an
architecturally- or artistically-oriented person with a scanner, and a
customized version of CorelDraw, etc. could be the vehicle... licensing
problems, possibly. Or something which could be distributed for use with
CorelDraw that wouldn't be based on distribution of the actual program...
users would need their own CorelDraw.

I feel these kind of software solutions are important and am presently
working on a database for use with the Microsoft Access database program,
for use by non-profits to keep track of mailing lists, membership
categories, IRS tax-form-based accounting, etc. (not of much use to those
of you in Australia, of course, but the core idea is the same). Many people
who could be contributing to the body of information or work are, I find,
held back by those same details which others of us find less daunting... I
am having to produce the database for my own work, anyway, as Keith is
doing with his Corel program, and with a little fiddling in the end, these
types of fairly-involved efforts can be generalized for sharing.

Good luck with your CorelDraw project Keith, I hope someday to see a
generalized version offered which I and others can purchase from you or
your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

Jack Rowe
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
PO Box 9882
College Station, TX 77842
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 30 00:26:15 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Shared ideas...
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On Thu, 29 May 1997, Jack Rowe wrote:

> your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
> we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
> idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
> turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

This is a great idea for an interactive permaculture page. 
Creating a resource, accessable by email, for archiving
PC design plan submissions from Permies around the world
is easy to do. I use the mhonarc mail2html converter/archiver
to store links to other PC resources that I run across. Mhonarc will
index articles by date and thread. Newsgroups are much better at doing 
all of this and I hope to make a few PC ones available soon. 

All you do to make your PC designs viewable for others in my
permaculture homepage is create your email with whatever message text
and file attachments you want (include all your graphics and any other
html code and  text-based documents, i.e. complete web pages with 
graphics and text) and send it to any of these destinations:
[have a look at some of these URLs to see how this works]

permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu   -  PC forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-info/maillist.html

permanet@sunsite.unc.edu    -  PC Links forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-links/maillist.html

organic@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Organic gardening forums
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/forums/organic-agriculture/maillist.html

rural@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Small Farm forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/agriculture/forums/small-farm-BB/maillist.html

dirtfarmer@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Regenerative agriculture forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/feedback/dirtfarmer/maillist.html

renew-energy@sunsite.unc.edu    -  renewable energy forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy/mailarchives/renew-energy/maillist.html


Also, you might be interested in following the progress of
the soon-to-exist Usenet newsgroup, rec.gardens.ecosystems
in its homepage at:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/rge.html  
This should become a valuable resource for permaculturists.


Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
---------------------------------

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 30 08:32:10 1997
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To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        72530.1353@compuserve.com, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Shared ideas...
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Sharing design ideas can be useful.  It is also important to honor original
work and to avoid sharing any but the best work.

I confess that I was burnt in this regard about 15 years ago when New England
permaculturists decided to house designs at Gap Mountain Permaculture.  We
also circulated designs among a few "active" designers.  Well so far as I
ever found out, my designs were the only ones filed at Gap Mountain, at least
as long as I was associated with them.  The "exchange" designs that I
received were garbage.  A designer's original work is never fully compensated
by the design fee and the right to re-use it needs to be delegated carefully.
 Otherwise, design work is unsustainable.  There is little that a competent
designer who as visited a site and made a proper assessment needs to take
from a design for an unrelated site.  Those things that transfer are properly
set up as STANDARD DESIGNS and their use licensed.  Otherwise the capable are
crushed under the heavy burden of carrying the incapable. 

Personally, I feel it is more useful for the capable to teach than to design,
though design jobs are appropriate in some circumstances too.  A better use
of communication resources might be to convince the incapable to qualify
themselves before either teaching or designing.  If this were successful, the
progressive quality dilution of permaculture practice would hault and might
even reverse.

I advise all permaculture designers to copyright their materials,
particularly if they are to make the available on public media.  In most
countries, a copyright notice copyrights a document and in many any original
work is automatically copyrighted.  (But the notice may remind others.)

If I want to use your standard design, I'll ask for permission and expect to
pay a (reasonable) license fee per use.  Good design work does not fall out
of the sky into someone's lap.  It results from hard work qualifying oneself,
usually a lifetime committment to honing the creative process, and a lot of
leg work and thinking and practical experience.  99% of this is investment
and 1% is immediate return, what you get for the first time you use a
standard design.  Designers who throw away the 99% aren't sustainable as
designers.  

Put another way, the over-riding principle of permaculture design or
ecosystem design is the law of gifts--there must be a harmony between giving
and receiving.  You have to feed the ox.

Yankee Permaculture has its standard designs available in our special order
list, as well as a cross sections of both professional and student designs of
high quality.  These cover mainly cool temperate areas, though there is some
subtropical and tropical material as well.  I'll provide information on our
special order materials on request.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Aug  1997. Internships available. Copyright
, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Jun  3 12:21:43 1997
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: Roundup and genetics
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Our friends at Monsanto chemical company (makers of Roundup herbicide) are
doing more than taking a merely passive approach to creating
genetically-engineered disasters. Monsanto is not just a chemical company
-- it is also one of the largest seed companies in the world, following a
trend over the last 3 - 4 decades of chemical companies buying-out seed
companies. The interaction between seeds and chemicals is clear to
Monsanto, who makes both agricultural toxins and chemical fertilizers. Just
ONE of their recent genetic-engineering coups: a cotton plant which can
survive more than twice the previously-toxic levels of Roundup, so that
farmers can use ever-more of the persistent herbicide in a vain attempt to
keep apace with weeds' increasing resistance to the "drug". As many of
those who lived through the 60's and 70's know too well, addictive need
increases faster than physical tolerance -- hence overdose. Too bad that
humans, frogs, etc. don't build resistances to these agricultural "drugs"
as quickly as the weeds and insect pests do! Overdose time!

Some quotes of interest, taken from the most recent Seeds of Texas Seed
Exchange's member's Directory:

"While insecticide use increased tenfold since the 1940’s, crop losses to
insects doubled..." Pimental, et al, 1983.

"In North and Central America, cotton production is seri-ously threatened
by the worst record of superpests of any crop worldwide... resistant to
chlorinated hydrocarbons, organophosphates, and carbamates, and fast
becoming resistant to pyrethroids..." Piper and Soule, ‘91

“The chemical DDE, a breakdown product of DDT [banned in 1969], was still
found in about 40 percent of the food sampled from US grocery shelves in
1983”... Fenner, 1984.

"In California alone, 22 different pesticides have been detected in
groundwater as a result of normal agricultural practices..." Alternative
Agriculture, 1989, National Re-search Council.

Wish us luck!! Jack

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Jun  9 23:18:03 1997
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------- start of forwarded message -------
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Reply-To: rge@infobahn.net
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening
Subject: CFV: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org
Expires: 1 Jul 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Archive-Name: rec.gardens.ecosystems
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 23:17:40 GMT


                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems	Ecosystems and organic gardening. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 Jun 1997.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>

RATIONALE: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995 showing that the
number of home gardeners just in the U.S. had grown to a total of 78
million. A little over one third of those home gardenrs used mostly organic
gardening techniques, a little over one third used mostly non-organic
techniques, and the remaining one third used mostly a combination of organic
and non-organic techniques. The trend is towards increased participation in
organic gardening especially with starting home gardeners. There is no
existing newsgroup clearly focused on organic gardening or organic
techniques.

Successful organic gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening
because it requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural
community inter-relates with the physical and chemical enviroment of the
home garden. Rec.gardens.ecosystems is being proposed as a newsgroup with an
extensive FAQ dealing with the many issues of organic gardening and the ways
these issues inter-relate with the ecosystems of the garden and the larger
community.

The resources are in place for: 1.) Rec.gardens.ecosystems to have its own
website; 2.) to have the on-topic articles archived and made available
through WWW; and 3.) to have the group FAQ available via WWW and FTP.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems would also employ a robot moderator backed by human
moderators to minimize problems with cross-posting and to help keep the
discussions focused. The proposed newsgroup has the potential to be an
important resource for many home gardeners.

CHARTER: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.

The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequency if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, ‘flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderator checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Administrative contact address: ecosys-admin@sunsite.unc.edu
Article submission address: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu

END MODERATOR INFO.

HOW TO VOTE:

Follow these instructions *exactly*!  Votes are counted by computer.
You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

    rge@infobahn.net

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements:

    I vote YES on rec.gardens.ecosystems
    I vote NO on rec.gardens.ecosystems

    Voter name:

If your mail software does not indicate your real name (for example, AOL
does not), include _exactly_ the statement above on a _separate_ line
and add your name after the colon.  Having your name in your signature line
is NOT enough!  Do NOT join the lines together or remove the words
"Voter name"!

You may also vote ABSTAIN (which records an empty vote) or CANCEL (which
removes any earlier votes).  ABSTAIN does not affect the final vote count
in any way but is listed, whereas CANCEL is not.

If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to
Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/uvv/.

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One vote per person, one account
per voter.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.
Anonymous, forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:

The bionet.* groups

-- 
Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
------- end of forwarded message -------

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Jul 12 00:17:45 1997
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From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: New on the event horizon for Oct.
References: <33C6FBEC.23B6@sonic.net>
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Keith Johnson wrote:
> 
> Sonoma Permaculture
> presents:
> POND BUILDING AND EARTH WORKS
> with
> KEITH JOHNSON AND MIKE COLLINS
> October 10, 11, 12 1997Angwin, California (N. Napa Vly)
> Learn to install water catchment systems such as ponds, transfer
> ditches
> and contour infiltration channels to supercharge your land with water.
> To Register call Petra or Daniella Hauptman 707-965-3234 or 3117, or
> Keith at Sonoma Permaculture
> 707-829-5524 or E-mail <keithdj@sonic.net>. $250, pair or group
> discounts, will barter.
> 
> Course includes:
>         Global and Bioregional Water Cycles: The Big Picture
>         Constructing a Series of Linked Ponds Using Keyline Principles
>         Recharge and Restoration ofAquifers and Water Tables
>         Soil Conservation and Erosion Control
>         Using Earth-moving Equipment Ecologically
>         Aquatic Plants and Pond Ecosystems
>         Chinampa: An ancient Aztec and Mayan irrigation system
>         Wrap-Up Potluck and Planting Party Oct. 18
> 
> Course Instructors:
> 
>         Keith Johnson: Director of Sonoma Permaculture, offers 25 years of
> gardening
> experience and 10 years Permaculture application. He has grown or
> propagated thousands
> of varieties of plants and maintains a sizable collection of rare and
> useful species.  He
> manages a 10 year old  design, consulting, and construction company
> specializing in masonry,
> rock walls, waterfalls, wetland biofilters, earth-repair, food forestry,
> and runoff
> management.
> 
>         Mike Collins: Organic Farmer and landscape contractor brings 20 yrs of
> farming and
> construction experience to this course. A UC Davis Olericulture
> graduate, he's presently
> working on Permaculture earthworks and design, plus a nursery of useful
> species for
> Permaculture projects on the North Coast. He can also report  on
> emerging Permaculture
> projects in Southern Mexico.
> 
> Deadline for workshop registration is 1 week  prior to event.  Dress
> appropriately for weather and wear strong shoes or boots, gloves, and
> eye protection.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

-- 
Keith 	
keithdj@sonic.net


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Jul 12 09:08:12 1997
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: keithdj@sonic.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Robin Permaculture Newsletter--Special Edition
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 Elfin Permaculture News

Permaculture Internships in Florida

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have two internships available at Barking Frogs
Farm in central Florida.  All interns will be exposed to sustainable
lifestyle and given opportunity to participate in the functioning of our
permaculture activities, including the  farm. Internships are available
year-round on the farm with the duration   negotiable. 

The Elfin Permaculture  intern will assist in the development  of our
permaculture design for our newly acquired farm.  S/he will take
measurements, document,  plantings,  produce  drawings and maps, and write
the first draft narrative of the design.

The Yankee Permaculture  intern will assist in the production  of our
publications, which include a journal, a digest, two directories, and a
series of specialized papers  and pamphlets.

Both interns are free to take any online design course  that runs during
 their internship.  Both interns will contribute to design implementation and
routine tasks as well as managing their own special projects.  Long term
interns have the opportunity to develop profit sharing and/or a position as
caretaker at  the farm.

For more information, reply with specific questions and a self-description
(less than 200 words) to Dan Hemenway, Peermacltur@aol.com.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Jul 30 18:17:43 1997
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From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture Intro Course in Sebastopol
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An Introduction to
Permaculture
at Sweetwater Farm CSA
 Sebastopol, CA 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, What Is Permaculture?

Permaculture (permanent culture) is the conscious design and maintenance
of cultivated ecosystems that mimic the diversity, stability and
resilience of natural  ecosystems. It  harmoniously integrates
landscape, people and technologies to provide food, shelter, energy, and
other needs in a way that will sustain present and future generations.
It also supports community structures such as economic systems,  finance
and trade  systems, as well as land access and cultural concerns. It can
provide you with the techniques and tools for transforming  
even badly damaged land into beautiful, ecological, high-yield,
low-maintenance oases.

?????????????????????????????????????
Who, When, Where, What, etc.:
Sweetwater Farm CSA
417 Furlong Rd, Sebastopol, CA 95472
Fri. Oct 3, 7-9PM, Sat. & Sun. Oct. 4-5, 9AM-5PM
*Fee: $80*
Includes 2 lunches, snacks, beverages, camping and a guided tour of
Occidental Arts and Ecology Ctr.
To Register call Lucy: 707-829-3203, or Keith at Sonoma Permaculture
829-5524,or send email <keithdj@sonic.net>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Course instructors:
Keith Johnson, Mike Collins, Erik Storm, Ishi Woods, Lucas Edmonds, and
others.

> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Jul 31 08:34:39 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture Design Course Online
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 Elfin Permaculture News

Online Permaculture Design Course  begins  in September

	Elfin Permaculature's next Permaculture Design Correspondence Course, with
an email classroom, will begin  in September 1997.  The course draws on the
Elfin Permaculture's standard three-week design course and follows the
outline below:
	SECTION 1:  Introduction and Basic Principles
		a)  World ecological problems and interrelationships.
		b)  Principles of natural design.
		c)  Permaculture design concepts.
		d)  Classical landscapes.
		e)  Patterning, edges, edge effects.
		f)  The Permaculture Design Report
		g)  Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much as we
have worked out at the moment--this is not part of ordinary permaculture
design courses).
	SECTION 2:  Appropriate Technologies  in Permaculture Design
		a)  Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc.
		b)  Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods, perennials,
tree crops, food parks, composting toilets, livestock, "pest" management,
food storage, seed saving, cultivated systems, forests,  etc.
		c)  Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc.
		d)   Buildings.
	SECTION 3:  Social permaculture.  Design Report.
		a)   Design for catastrophe.
		b)  Urban permaculture.
		c)  Bioregionalism.
		d)  Alternative economics.
		e)  Village development.
		f)  Final design reports and critiques.
		g)  Final evaluation.
	DESIGN SECTION.  (Requires Section 1.)  Students complete  a permaculture
 design
	Students follow a set reading schedule supplemented by  notes from the
instructor. They discuss reading assignments  in an email classroom.  The
instructor also supplements course materials  with resources drawn from
varied components of the internet.  Students practice explaining or teaching
permaculture basics, give special reports, and prepare a complete
permaculture design.  The course runs 20-26 weeks, depending on the time
needed to complete  discussion of various topics.  Students completing all
course requirements receive a Permaculture Design Course certificate.
	Students may arrange to enroll individual sections  of the course in any
sequence, depending on their financial  and schedule  requirements.  People
may also arrange  to monitor the course at nominal  cost.  Enrollment  in the
Design Section  is limited to 20 people.  
	Instructor Dan Hemenway has taught  permaculture worldwide in Europe, Asia,
the Pacific and North America. Dan  is also founder, editor and publisher of
The International Permaculture Solutions Journal,  highly regarded among
permaculturists and PROD (Permaculture Review Overview and Digest ). He is
program director of APT (Advanced Permaculture Training), founder of the
Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network (FERN), and active in related movements such
as remineralization. He contributes to the development of permaculture with
ongoing work on principles of transformation.  Dan holds five diplomas in
various aspects of permaculture from the International Permaculture
Institute. He received the annual Conservation Award from Friends of Nature
in 1983 and the Community Service Award from the International Permaculture
Institute in 1984. In 1991, he was named as a delegate to "Roots of the
Future," a conference of NGOs in Paris, France, to prepare input to the UN
"Earth Summit" held in June, 1992. More recently, Dan was cited in
Swathmore's Who's Who in America for 1996-97, and  from 1995 to the present
has served as Honorary Chairman, Permaculture Foundation - Net_Work - Kenya,
 Homa Bay, Kenya. 
	For details, email Elfin Permaculture at  elfpermacl@aol.com

Permaculture Internships in Florida

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have two internships available at Barking Frogs
Farm in central Florida.  All interns will be exposed to sustainable
lifestyle and given opportunity to participate in the functioning of our
permaculture activities, including the  farm. Internships are available
year-round on the farm with the duration   negotiable. 

The Elfin Permaculture  intern will assist in the development  of our
permaculture design for our newly acquired farm.  S/he will take
measurements, document,  plantings,  produce  drawings and maps, and write
the first draft narrative of the design.

The Yankee Permaculture  intern will assist in the production  of our
publications, which include a journal, a digest, two directories, and a
series of specialized papers  and pamphlets.

Both interns are free to take any online design course  that runs during
 their internship.  Both interns will contribute to design implementation and
routine tasks as well as managing their own special projects.  Long term
interns have the opportunity to develop profit sharing and/or a position as
caretaker at  the farm.

For more information, reply with specific questions and a self-description
(less than 200 words) to Dan Hemenway, Peermacltur@aol.com.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Aug  6 22:08:26 1997
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Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: permacultural orchard (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 14:21:31 -0700
From: Ralph Hertle <Ralph.Hertle@stud.uni-hannover.de>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: permacultural orchard

Hi!

  I am doing a thesis paper on orchard management to produce apples for 
juice. Having read Fukuoka and Mollison, I find their thoughts very 
interesting, however not detailed enough to apply them to my problem. 
Also, in Northern Germany, permacultural horticulture does not seem to 
work well enough to use it commercially. The Kennedys, who have been 
setting up the permacultural idea for Germany, could not help me yet with 
my particular problem.
  So, maybe, you could hint me to someone in a similar climatic situation 
who is running an orchard or would know something about that. 

  Thanks a lot,

  sincerely Ralph

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Aug 11 01:02:15 1997
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Subject: Spader Clinic at BD Conference (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:32:06 -0400
From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@igg.com>
To: bd-l@biodynamics.com
Subject: Spader Clinic at BD Conference

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Great News!!

Eugene Canales (BIODYNAMICS #210-212) of Ferarri Tractor has offered to
conduct a "spading" clinic at the East Coast Biodynamic Conference Oct 3-5.

The Claymont Court Agricultural Project, the site of the conference, has
been using  a 7ft Tortella spader with a recent model 70-hp John Deere
tractor with optional low gearing for the past year. It is Eugene's
intention to use this equipment to show in the field the 'whys and hows' of
spading as well as demonstrate some 'tricks of the spade' and answer
questions from spader users and those interested in using spaders on their
beds and fields in the future. The Claymont growers will be on hand to
discuss their experiences with this appropriate approach to tillage. (They
LIKE their spader!!)

The presentation is in addition to the lecture on 'Walking Tractors' by
Eugene Canales which was announced previously. This presentation will be
demonstrated with the BCS line of walking tractors and may even include a
demonstration of the  BCS walk-behind spading machine!!! (Highly
recommended by Elliot Coleman for the 'small' producer.) Other European
'walking tractor' lines will be discussed and there will be a slide show
and questions and answers.

[I hope my enthusiasm for these two events is not construed to be
commercial. I have not seen many opportunities for alternative growers to
find experienced information on these worthwhile and practical approaches
to tillage and cultivation and am happy that we will get an opportunity to
provide this information at the East Coast Biodynamics Conference.]

The East Coast Biodynamic Conference ("Alan Chadwick: 30 Years Later") is
being held at Claymont Court in Charles Town, WV (about 90 minutes from
downtown Washington DC) Oct 3-5, 1997. It is being partially sponsored by
the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association and the Demeter (BD
Certification) Association with a little help from Record Tools (marketers
in North America of the famous Sheffield England D-handled "Bulldog" spades
popularized by Alan Chadwick).

Trade Show space is available at this conference. (Yes, there will be
stirring machines AND flow forms demonstrated!)

For more information about the East Coast Biodynamic Conference, Contact:
Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 FAX:(304)
876-9414 email: biodynamics@biodynamics.com or check out the web page at
www.biodynamics.com.

For more information about the Spading Clinic or the Walking Tractor
Presentation, or general questions about alternative farm implements,
contact Eugene Canales, Ferarri Tractor, POB 1045, Gridley, CA 95548 (916)
846-6401 FAX: (916) 846-0390.


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it will be released to no one)

You'll soon start getting messages.  If you don't like what you see, send
another e-mail to:

bd-l@biodynamics.com and put "unsubscribe BD-L" in the Subject.

Check out the Biodynamic Association WEB PAGE:
      http://www.his.com/~claymont/bda.html


Thank you,

Allan Balliett, Moderator, BD-L
===============================




From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 15 20:38:52 1997
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> 
> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol, Ca. A year and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of global Pc contacts and orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated list that is available on the net? It has been a very valuable resource and I'd like to keep it current. Thanks.
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 17 09:58:13 1997
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In a message dated 8/16/97 12:34:40 AM, you wrote:

>> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol, Ca. A
year
>and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of global Pc contacts
and
>orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated list that is available on the
net?
>It has been a very valuable resource and I'd like to keep it current.
Thanks.
>> --
>> Keith
>> keithdj@sonic.net


Hi Keith:

We publish a complimentary listing, about 2,000+ organizations doing work
compatible with permaculture, including some permaculture groups, centers and
publications.  It's called TRIP--The Resources of Inernational Permaculture.
(We are pretty restrictive regarding permaculture groups and centers as there
are so many around in name only.)  If someone has actually taken the effort
to validate a six page list of PC groups, I'd certainly like to see it.
 Please post the contact when you find it.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 17 23:27:05 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture Global Directory
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On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Keith Johnson wrote:

> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol,
> Ca. A year and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of
> global Pc contacts and orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated
> list that is available on the net? It has been a very valuable resource
> and I'd like to keep it current. Thanks.  > -- > Keith >
> keithdj@sonic.net

That was the Permaculture FAQ written by Steve Diver at ATTRA, htmlized by
Michael Yount at Communications For A Sustainable Future:

http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/faq.html

or the text version at:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/faqs/permaculture.faq.v1.3


Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Aug 26 13:04:09 1997
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Legumes
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Keith queried:

>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>us would be inoculating our seeds?
Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great at
finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how the
plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they have
found the bacteria. 

>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent or so --
ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are cut
release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
analogous for the nitrogen in the roots. 

>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended when soil
nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping and
receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, "catch
crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. For
these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of nitrogen,
it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), corn,
etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green such
as mustard. 

On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become established
on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue. 

As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit trees
tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems and
will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful Valley
in California. 

Jack Rowe
Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Aug 28 08:56:39 1997
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OK, I'm going to make things really complex, since some how I did not get
Keith's post, and interpose my comments with Jack's.  More needs to be said.

In a message dated 8/27/97 5:28:39 PM, you wrote:

>Keith queried:
>
>>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>>us would be inoculating our seeds?
JACK'S REPLY:
>Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great at
>finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how the
>plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they have
>found the bacteria. 
>
ELFIN PERMACULTURE REPLY:  Some legumes fix nitrogen and some don't.  I read
somewhere that MOST do not, but I don't remember the source.  Fortunately,
most crop legumes (all that I know about) fix nitrogen.  The rate varies, as
Jack suggests.  At least as important as the species of fixer, however, is
soil condition, including mycorhhizal fungi, which promote fixation, certain
trace minterals, and of course pH.  High levels of available N depress
fixation, generally. Moreover, at least some legumes, such as white Dutch
clover (T repens) increase the rate if fixation when cut or grazed!  What a
deal!  The more you use the more you get.  Probably due to mycorhhizal
action, soil organic mater promotes fixation.  Personally, I have not yet
selected crops purely because of their rate of fixation, there being so many
other factors to consider.  A really good design option is to use n-fixing
trees as shelter belt and fence posts, particularly if they have other
browse, forage, feed, food, fuel and timber options.  Not to mention shade,
transpirational cooling, wildlife habitat, ad infinitum.  Sorry--got carried
away--we are at the stage of selecting such trees now for our design at
Barking Frogs Farm.

Don't neglect non-leguminous nitrogen fixers, which can do a really
impressive job.  I've never seed anything nodulate like some alders on land
that owns us up in Massachusetts.  Phenomenal!  No N shortage in that swamp!
 Here at Barking Frogs Farm, our biggest N fixer is azolla in our waterways.
 Most of you know that this is an aquatic fern that symbiotically associates
with a N fixing cyanobacteria (misleadingly called blue-green algae). 

>>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?

JACKS REPLY: >Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent
or so --
>ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
>nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are cut
>release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
>nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
>analogous for the nitrogen in the roots. 
>
ELFIN's REPLY:  Well as a general think Jack is right.  However some
associations "leak" significant amounts N directly into the soil and so
benefit companions directly.  Again, I suspect that this is amplified by
mycorhhizae, though this is not by any evidence, but because it is the
pattern.  Not even a guess, just a suspicion.  Good Master's Thesis for
someone.  Good permaculturists don't worry about short term cycling, anyway,
we are in for the long haul.  If you take most of the crop off and never
return anything, you aren't in for the long haul.  Completely closed cycles
are a myth, granted, but completely open cycles are a suicide note.  So add
the fixers that suit the total design and move that soil fertility up by
seady increments.  Rapid changes in soil are an invitation to soil-borne
diseases. 
	Fukuoka worked out a lot of this.  I'd substitute another legume very, very
carefully as he took `15 years to work out his system and I may not live
another 15 years.  (I'd like to, of course.)  


>>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?

JACK'S REPLY>In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended
when soil
>nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
>nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
>sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping and
>receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, "catch
>crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. For
>these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
>requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of nitrogen,
>it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), corn,
>etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
>legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green such
>as mustard. 
>
>On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
>establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
>included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
>species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become established
>on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue. 
>
>As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit trees
>tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
>here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems and
>will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
>grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful Valley
>in California. 

ELFIN'S REPLY:  Well Jack clearly tried to steer us back into permaculture
here.  If you plant something mainly for one reason, it isn't permaculture.
 Stack those functions, fella!  There are more considerations than we can
think about, but we should think about as many as we can.  In Massachusetts,
in highly organic soil that was naturally well mineralized (too rocky to plow
and apparently never grazed), I'd get three pickings, massive pickings, of
Commodore green beans in a 90-frost free day growing season.  This is a 65
day bean.  Clumps of nodules got to the size of a child's fist.  I fertilized
the beans with wood ash for the trace mineral and pH bump.  One light
dressing, no ammendments, following corn that bore up to 6 ears per stalk,
three large ones routinely.  I've followed the same pattern in other soils
with maybe 1/5 the yield if I was lucky.  Generally I rotated 1/4 legumes on
an area basis and 1/2 of the garden was corn, alternated each year and 1/4
other vegetables.  We added manure, fed livestock probably tons of weeds, ate
like kings and had the market on premium green peas in our pocket.  (We got
20 percent higher than retail--supermarket prices--for snow peas at a local
chinese restaurant solely on the basis of quality)  Even the peas were
heavily nodualted.  

I'm a big guy and pretty strong.  I'd take it poorly if people decided not to
feed me because I'm big and strong anyway.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 19:18:31 1997
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From: "Niamh P. Joyce" <npjoyce@iol.ie>
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how do I unsubscribe myself from this list
I subscribed when I had an account at mcenpj@hw.ac.uk
which is still active

Niamh P. Joyce       
npjoyce@iol.ie    +353-405-46041  fax+353-405-46479
B.A.I.Mechanical Engineering, Trinity College, Dublin
M.Sc. Environmental Pollution Control Management,
Heriot Watt University, Edinburgh

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From: Andrew Erb <erba@lincolnu.edu>
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Subject: permaculture in Missouri
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Does anyone know of any permaculture activities in the Mid-Missouri area?

I am currently trying to get a little money donated to start a 

school/community organic garden and outdoor classroom project going.

	
	Andrew Erb  erba@lincolnu.edu   

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 10:15:21 1997
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Subject: Our Annual Permaculture Letter
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The following letter is our annual Permaculture report.  Send SASE or
international return mail coupons and address label for a print copy, which
includes drawings and additional information.

Dan Hemenway
***

Barking Frogs Farm
Home of Yankee Permaculture and Elfin Permaculture
P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  Email:  Permacltur@aol.com
Dear Brothers and Sisters:
	Greetings from our new permaculture center, Barking Frogs Farm. Our new
place is on good-old Florida wetland, real alligator and cotton-mouth snake
country.  We were just looking for a temporary residence, to avoid paying
rent, when we found this place.  It is so beautiful we both immediately
wanted to settle here, despite the fact that anything one does in the state
of Florida is fouled with regulations and red tape.
	So here we are, under giant oaks, huge water hickories and gorgeous sabal
palms, polishing up our design for the place and trying to get our various
permaculture programs under way. We have acquired two adjacent homesteads,
one house for a permaculture center with room for guests and the other for
our private residence.  
	Since 1981, we subsidized our permaculture work, particularly the
publications, with other earnings. Now we intend to make permaculture pay for
itself. Permaculture outreach does not pay.  But our land-based projects have
profit potential, so that they can help retire the mortgage on the
permaculture center.	
	So what's new.  The most exciting new event, after our new home, is Dan's
development of a Permaculture Design Correspondence Course for the internet.
 The course combines the practicality of good old fashioned book study with
the dynamic of an email classroom.  Dan appears to be the last hold-out for
the three-week live course, preferring the longer formats, and the new course
fits the bill.  It runs between 20 and 26 weeks, depending on the needs of
the particular group.  Students in the course have gained  a good grasp of
the design principles and we are sure that the longer course duration makes
it easier to integrate them into daily life.  For more about the course,
email us at <Permacltur@aol.com>. Ask for a course protocol and reading list.
 
	Tuition is $1,000, of which half covers individual assistance on the
student's personal design project.  Monitors pay $100. The course may be
taken in segments--it has three parts plus the design project.  We do not
charge extra for permaculture course graduates who wish to do advanced work
in any of our programs.
	The next email course begins in October 1997.  Enrollment is limited to 20.
 We also offer a similar program as a conventional correspondence course, but
because the program is one-on-one, tuition is higher.  We feel that the new
email format enables people in remote areas to attend as well as folks who
cannot take off 3+ weeks to attend our conventional course.  
	Here at Barking Frogs Farm, we now can accept residential students in our
APT (Advanced Permaculture Training) program.  (APT also allows for advanced
students to work at home or in the field.)  By the time you get this, we will
have room for a total of two APT students and interns. Interns have the
opportunity to work on our publications, help in documenting our permaculture
design, and assist in such projects as our aquaculture, agroforestry and
chinampas systems, all, obviously, in the early  stages of development.  APT
students design their own programs, which include producing a design,
implementing it, and participating in some form of research and outreach. 
	Not all was progress.  After four different residences in 1996, our
publications program slowed considerably.  We continue to upgrade some
publications, most recently with an improved rendering of John Fargher's The
Oaks  (Yankee Permaculture Paper #12.) We issued no new publications. Pending
publications are listed on the reverse of this sheet.  We are hopeful that we
will get a publications intern interested in benefiting from Dan's 40 years
of editorial experience.
	Our involvement in the Kenya project is now minimal, as the local organizers
have identified a suitable permaculture expert right over the border in
Uganda. This is much more practical.  We may offer a program in Paraguay.
 Contact us in three months if you want details. Otherwise, we have done
little in the way of marketing workshops and courses. Dan likes staying at
home.
	Plans include development of two poultry forage systems: a movable chicken
coop that we can haul to places where we want weeds or insects cleaned up and
a hexagonal array of fenced forage areas  so that we can move chickens around
to harvest or glean in various rotation schemes. (Well, there are two other
poultry systems in the works, but we will limit this report to one sheet of
paper.)  We hope to acquire a few Asian water buffalo as draft and meat
animals that can pasture in part on the weeds that clog our waterways.  One
of our main thrusts is developing a system of chinampas.  Dan has a grant
proposal out seeking funds to document  chinampas still operating near Mexico
city.  He has a few other grant prospects in mind.  Suggestions are welcome.
Meanwhile, the first prototype Barking Frogs Farm chinampa is nearly finished
and promises to be as high yielding as reputed.  
	Cynthia has taken the next step as a Certified Nurse Midwife, and is
teaching at the nearby University of Florida.  She is very interested in
identifying medicinal herb crops suited for our place, particularly those
that we can process with value added steps.  Wetland species of hawthorns,
including mayhaws, fit the bill perfectly. We have started planting them. We
have also found that the old standby, echinacea, does well on our sandy  land
where moisture hungry sabal palms create arid conditions, regardless of
rainfall.
	We invite you to pass the word about our email course and internships.  This
is a good time to be thinking about getting presents for the Solstice season
holidays.  Please check out our order form to see if there is something you
would like to give, maybe to yourself.  We are still willing to do a limited
amount of away-from-home teaching and consulting.
	We know that most of you are also working hard for Mother Earth in many
ways.  We thank you for your efforts and look to join forces when
appropriate.
For Mother Earth


Dan Hemenway
                                                                   Cynthia
Hemenway

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 12:56:00 1997
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From: allixes@sprynet.com (Allixandria Sherral)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Legumes
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>Hi Allixandria:
>
>Please forward the info to the entire permaculture list for me.  From our
>Permaculture Supplier List database of nearly 1,000 entries (email
>YankeePerm@aol.com about availabiity in print or disk forms):
>
>J L Hudson
>POB 1058
>Redwood City CA 94064 USA
>
>They are efficient, courteous and we have not had the awful backorder
>bookkeeping problems that we encounter with many other permaculture-type
>suppliers.
>
>For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
>1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
>consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
>courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
>Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
> YankeePerm@aol.com
>
>The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.


Allixandria Sherral
allixes@sprynet.com
The Golden Spiral
      


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 31 10:23:44 1997
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We just got another good acacia source for the US while updating our
(commercially available) Permaculture Supplier List.  Though we have known
about The Banana Tree in Pennsylvania for some time,I did not know that they
carry acacia seed.  They have given up their print catalog, it seems and gone
entirely to a web site.  While they have a few plants and seeds suitable for
milder temperate regions, they specialized in subtropical and, especially,
tropical species.  I'd have to take out a bank loan, second mortgage maybe,
to try everything that they have that interests me!  Great stuff.  Check 'em
out at www.banana-tree.com 

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.

From johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com  Thu Sep  4 05:16:35 1997
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Subject: Permaculture Design Course on Moloka'i, Hawai'i
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  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE on the ISLAND of MOLOKA'I, HAWAI'I

Dates: November 29 to December 12, 1997.

Location: Hui Ho'olana, a 77 acre retreat center on Moloka'i, Hawai'i. 
This island was the first place Bill Mollison ever visited in the US.
It is a very rural island with many native hawaiians on homestead land, 
extensive ancient hawaiian fish ponds, and permaculture sites.

Description: The main purpose of the course is to impart permaculture 
principles and methodologies which can be applied anywhere in the world. 
This design course will cover the standard two week cerificate 
Permaculture Design Course curriculum. Through lecture, discussion, 
slide shows, observation, field trips, and hands-on experiential 
learning, permaculture design students will develop the practical skills 
and knowledge to design and implement sustainable systems in harmony 
with the natural world. There will be an emphasis on designing 
permaculture and agroforesty systems adapted to Hawai'i and other 
subtropical/tropical oceanic islands. This will range in scale from 
urban, backyard and small acreage to village and whole island design.

Instructors: Michael Pilarski has taught permaculture in the USA, 
Canada, Belize, Nepal, and Australia, and teaches herbal wildcrafting. 
He is the founder of Friends of the Trees in Washington state. Douglas 
Bullock is a horticulturalist with wide experience in Washington state, 
California, New Zealand, Australia, and Hawai'i. Bruce Hill was raised 
in Argentina and lived in other Latin American countries. He manages the 
Kanahena Farm Nursery in Maui. John Valenzuela is an educator and 
horticulturalist based on the Big Island of Hawai'i. He also has wide 
experience in California, from urban gardening to forestry. The 
instructors are avid and knowledgeable plantsmen with international 
experience.

Cost: US$950 including two weeks lodging, meals, and materials. Campers 
pay a reduced fee. Some partial scholarships are available
The course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Hu'i Ho'olana
         PO Box 99
         Kualapu'u, Hawai'i 96757 
         Tel. and Fax:(808)567-6430

     or: Friends of the Trees Society
         PO Box 4469 
         Bellingham, Washington 98227 
         Tel:(360)738-4972 Fax:(360)671-9668
         URL: www.geocities.com/rainforest/4663   


PS: Please send me any e-mail addresses or URLs that this event should 
be listed at. MAHALO

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep  4 10:58:41 1997
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  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE on the ISLAND of MOLOKA'I, HAWAI'I

Dates: November 29 to December 12, 1997.

Location: Hui Ho'olana, a 77 acre retreat center on Moloka'i, Hawai'i. 
This island was the first place Bill Mollison ever visited in the US.
It is a very rural island with many native hawaiians on homestead land, 
extensive ancient hawaiian fish ponds, and permaculture sites.

Description: The main purpose of the course is to impart permaculture 
principles and methodologies which can be applied anywhere in the world. 
This design course will cover the standard two week cerificate 
Permaculture Design Course curriculum. Through lecture, discussion, 
slide shows, observation, field trips, and hands-on experiential 
learning, permaculture design students will develop the practical skills 
and knowledge to design and implement sustainable systems in harmony 
with the natural world. There will be an emphasis on designing 
permaculture and agroforesty systems adapted to Hawai'i and other 
subtropical/tropical oceanic islands. This will range in scale from 
urban, backyard and small acreage to village and whole island design.

Instructors: Michael Pilarski has taught permaculture in the USA, 
Canada, Belize, Nepal, and Australia, and teaches herbal wildcrafting. 
He is the founder of Friends of the Trees in Washington state. Douglas 
Bullock is a horticulturalist with wide experience in Washington state, 
California, New Zealand, Australia, and Hawai'i. Bruce Hill was raised 
in Argentina and lived in other Latin American countries. He manages the 
Kanahena Farm Nursery in Maui. John Valenzuela is an educator and 
horticulturalist based on the Big Island of Hawai'i. He also has wide 
experience in California, from urban gardening to forestry. The 
instructors are avid and knowledgeable plantsmen with international 
experience.

Cost: US$950 including two weeks lodging, meals, and materials. Campers 
pay a reduced fee. Some partial scholarships are available
The course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Hu'i Ho'olana
         PO Box 99
         Kualapu'u, Hawai'i 96757 
         Tel. and Fax:(808)567-6430

     or: Friends of the Trees Society
         PO Box 4469 
         Bellingham, Washington 98227 
         Tel:(360)738-4972 Fax:(360)671-9668
         URL: www.geocities.com/rainforest/4663   


PS: Please send me any e-mail addresses or URLs that this event should 
be listed at. MAHALO

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep  4 11:56:25 1997
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-------------------------------------------
The Seed Savers' Network, Box 975,
Byron Bay, NSW 2481, Australia.
Tel only: 61 266 857 560
Tel and Fax also: 61 266 856 624
Email: seedsave@om.com.au
World Wide Web: http://www.om.com.au/seedsave
--------------------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Sep  6 00:07:07 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE 
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The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu
or to access a specific newsgroup:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
InterGarden - Venaura Farm
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
----------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 00:06:28 1997
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sorry for the typos - correct URLs are below:
---------------------------------------------

The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
- or to access a specific newsgroup:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

Or read them at http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

------------------------------------------------------------------
 Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Dragonfly Market Gardens
 mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
------------------------------------------------------------------




From Elfpermacl@aol.com  Mon Sep  8 08:27:28 1997
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Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
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To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs)
Status: O
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In a message dated 9/8/97 12:14:42 AM, you wrote:

>The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
>unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
>newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
> 
>They are:
>
>permaculture.design
>permaculture.systems
>permaculture.links
>permaculture.information
>permaculture.events
>permaculture.discussion
>permaculture.news
>
>To access them point your news browser to:
>news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
>
>Or point your web browser to this URL:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
>- or to access a specific newsgroup:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

We still get three variations of "You can't get there from Here." from AOL.  

DH

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 08:41:20 1997
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs)
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In a message dated 9/8/97 12:14:42 AM, you wrote:

>The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
>unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
>newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
> 
>They are:
>
>permaculture.design
>permaculture.systems
>permaculture.links
>permaculture.information
>permaculture.events
>permaculture.discussion
>permaculture.news
>
>To access them point your news browser to:
>news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
>
>Or point your web browser to this URL:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
>- or to access a specific newsgroup:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

We still get three variations of "You can't get there from Here." from AOL.  

DH

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 15:35:34 1997
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From: rrfreifelder@ucdavis.edu (Rachel Freifelder)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Cc: dancing-rabbit@ic.org
Subject: Midwest consulting opportunity
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The Dancing Rabbit Project, a forming ecovillage in northeast Missouri, is
about to close on our purchase of 276 beautiful acres of rolling, grassy
hills, streams and woods.  We are looking for some professional assistance
in creating our land management plan.  The appropriate person would be a
landscape-level thinker with a broad knowledge of soils, hydrology,
ecology, microclimate, etc; familiar with the landscape and climate of our
region; and preferably with design or planning experience in this region.
Specific certification in permaculture is not essential; the consultant
could be trained in landscape architecture, agroecology, regional planning,
etc, so long as they have experience in the above areas.   Our group
already includes an ecologist, a civil engineer, and an experienced small
farmer, and we would prefer to work with someone who will educate us rather
than simply advise us, such that we are able to modify our plan as time
requires.

If anyone on this list can recommend a consultant, please pass on contact
information as appropriate. If you feel qualified to help us, please visit
our web site at

http://www.woodwind.com/dancing-rabbit

and then send a cover letter, resume and some ballpark estimates of
consulting fees to this address and
dancing-rabbit@ic.org.

In community,
Rachel Freifelder
Dancing Rabbit Project


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Sep 21 23:18:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:03:19 -0700
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From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: "Hugoculture"?
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I'm searching for information about "hugoculture", a gardening style
using deep and coarse mulches. I saw an article in French at Peter
Bane's but it was a bad photocopy and faxed after that...and I don't
speak French (cest la vie). I've been playing around with it for a few
years and wondered if y'all had tried it or sourced info about it.
Thanks 
-- 
Keith Johnson
Sonoma Permaculture	
keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep 22 08:41:09 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: keithdj@sonic.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  "Hugoculture"?
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In a message dated 9/21/97 11:07:00 PM, keithdj@sonic.net wrote:

>I'm searching for information about "hugoculture", a gardening style
>using deep and coarse mulches. I saw an article in French at Peter
>Bane's but it was a bad photocopy and faxed after that...and I don't
>speak French (cest la vie). I've been playing around with it for a few
>years and wondered if y'all had tried it or sourced info about it.
>Thanks 
>-- 
>Keith Johnson
>Sonoma Permaculture	
>keithdj@sonic.net


Hi Keith:

We have not seen the material on Hugoculture, however we have published
material on permaculture with deep mulch.  We also have a copy of the Jean
Pain book which goes into some detail on some deep mulch techniques.  That
used to be available in the USA (in English, though a dreadful translation).
 I'm trying to remember who was distributing it.  

The soils issue of one of our publications, THE INTERNATIONAL PERMACULTURE
SOLUTIONS JOURNAL (Vol. 1, #3), goes into deep mulch to some extent as we did
it for a number of years in our old Orange, Massachusetts, location.  It is a
perfect adjunct to seasonal poultry foraging in the mulch (late fall and
early spring).  Grafted apples were girdled when a neighbor's poorly managed
sheds were buldozed by a new owner (rats invaded) but seedlings that
germinated in the mulch were not harmed--mostly nut trees and some crab
apples.  Interesting.  We used chickens against the rats--they broke up the
burrows.  Well I'm never going to sell that closet full of back issues if I
go on.  Besides, I have to harvest water hacinth for our chinampas today.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Sep 24 23:08:05 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:33:34 +0200
From: Its van der Es <its.vanderes@pi.net>
To: niamh joyce <N.P.Joyce@hw.ac.uk>
Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Some information on European Pc groups

Hi there !

I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
permaculture issues.
I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
currently doing research on:
- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
- how do they work (who does what);
- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
way);
- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.

I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
could be located best.
For further information you can contact me at:

Its van der Es
Brederodestraat 54-I
1054 MX  Amsterdam
Holland
003120-6893079
its.vanderes@pi.net

From Elfpermacl@aol.com  Thu Sep 25 08:23:28 1997
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To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  Re: Some information on European Pc groups (fwd)
Status: RO
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In a message dated 9/24/97 11:04:05 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote:

>Hi there !
>
>I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
>permaculture issues.
>I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
>information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
>currently doing research on:
>- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
>- how do they work (who does what);
>- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
>- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
>way);
>- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
>I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
>sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
>So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
>and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.
>
>I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
>an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
>could be located best.
>For further information you can contact me at:
>
>Its van der Es
>Brederodestraat 54-I
>1054 MX  Amsterdam
>Holland
>003120-6893079
>its.vanderes@pi.net

Hi

Here is our only Holland contact from our directory, TRIP (The Resources of
International Permaculture).

Permacultuur Niewsbrief
c/o Ronald Oostendorp
Oosterdyk 57 E
1601 DB Enkhuizen

We also have 32 groups listed in the Netherlands (most not specifically
permaculture groups as there are about 15 other categories we include as
related to permaculture).  Email me privately about how to get a complete
copy of TRIP.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep 25 08:33:45 1997
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In a message dated 9/24/97 11:04:05 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote:

>Hi there !
>
>I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
>permaculture issues.
>I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
>information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
>currently doing research on:
>- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
>- how do they work (who does what);
>- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
>- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
>way);
>- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
>I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
>sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
>So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
>and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.
>
>I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
>an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
>could be located best.
>For further information you can contact me at:
>
>Its van der Es
>Brederodestraat 54-I
>1054 MX  Amsterdam
>Holland
>003120-6893079
>its.vanderes@pi.net

Hi

Here is our only Holland contact from our directory, TRIP (The Resources of
International Permaculture).

Permacultuur Niewsbrief
c/o Ronald Oostendorp
Oosterdyk 57 E
1601 DB Enkhuizen

We also have 32 groups listed in the Netherlands (most not specifically
permaculture groups as there are about 15 other categories we include as
related to permaculture).  Email me privately about how to get a complete
copy of TRIP.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Oct  6 12:49:37 1997
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Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:30:22 -0500
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From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  reprise: guilds
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I think the problem here is that we're assuming that everyone knows that
permaculturists are supposed to interplant different species together as
opposed to monocropping.  When Mollison came up with the "guild" concept,
that was far from obvious, and still is to many people that we would teach.

My understanding of a guild as Mollison defines it is any group of diverse
species that are in beneficial relationship to each other (and that
includes us). I think what Dan is trying to say is that we should never
stop thinking about what might make up a good association and that's why he
doesn't want to follow any prescribed list.  I agree that we should never
stop observing and experimenting, but I also think it's OK to look at what
has worked for other people.  This is the way other cultures used to pass
on knowledge to each other and they DID survive quite well before one
culture (us) decided to flaunt the basic laws of survival.

In the course I took from Bill Mollison he emphasised many times that the
knowledge we pass on to others must be simple and easy to pass on to more
people in turn, including people who are "uneducated", of a different
language or culture, and have little scientific knowledge.  In coming up
with guilds, he told us to keep in mind the basic concepts: you should take
advantage of layers (canopy, understory, herb, root, vining plant, etc.),
and think in terms of what each of the plants need and what could give it
to them.  That is, if a plant is plagued by a particular pest insect, plant
something with it that will attract predators of that insect, such as a
dense ground cover that snakes or lizards might like.  If a plant uses a
lot of nitrogen it can be planted with a nitrogen fixer, etc.

As to how to determine what works and what doesn't in your climate and
microclimate, Mollison suggested two things: 1) observe what works well in
natural systems and try to find out through research what characteristics
make them work well, and 2) the first year, plant out as many diverse types
of species as you can get your hands on.  Be prepared to have to control
some species that try to take over!  But you will observe out of 50 or 100
species that you might plant, that 4 or 5 of them do exceptionally well
together, a larger number will do well but not quite as well, and some will
fail altogether.  The next year, plant more of the successes, less of the
failures, and try the neutrals in different associations along with some
that you didn't plant last year.  But the important thing is that if you
plant out hundreds of species right away, SOMETHING will grow, and you will
both learn something and have something to eat, probably even if there's a
bad drought or other adverse condition.

As for Dan's comments that we think we know too much about nature, I'd like
to restate another Mollisonism that is often understated:  ANYTHING we know
about permaculture is ONLY applicable to that 4% of the earth's land mass
that we should need in order to produce our own food.  If a natural system
exists well on its own we should LEAVE IT ALONE.  However almost anything
will help heal the land by comparison to monoculture farming, strip malls,
and places that have become desert due to deforestation.  These are our
areas of focus and we should not attempt to "fix" the rest of the world,
unless we have ourselves damaged it and it needs to be healed.  Nor should
we step up our present rate of food production simply because we can now
get a higher yield from the same space.  That would only result in a
population increase.  The idea is to decrease the amount of space and
resources we are currently using to produce food, and that doesn't need to
be rocket science.  Other cultures and species have fed themselves just
fine by simply being observant of natural patterns and passing their
observations on.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Oct  7 00:57:21 1997
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From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: apology
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Wow Jack, that was very big of you to say what you said publicly, although
I for one didn't have any problem with it.

>I hope the gist of my plea for an open-ended, supportive dialog was not
>lost because of being (ironically as well as idiotically, in this context)
>hidden behind the smart-assed words and tone.

No, I think you had some extremely pertinent things to say.  Smart-assed
vernacular included.

>Kindness and support are the basis of open communication.

Yes... as well as a sense of humor.  Trying our best to be kind is good,
but in the absence of any edge (there's those "edges" again!), human
relationships can get awfully boring and monocultural!

Yes, anger and sarcasm can be very destructive to relationships, but I
think we count anger out only because most of the expressions of anger we
see are inappropriate.  This is because most of us don't express anger when
it IS appropriate, so it's bound to come out elsewhere.

I think anger is a great energizer and motivator.  Bill Mollison even wrote
in his autobiography that it is anger that drives him and has been all
along, and I often feel similarly.  But of course anger is only the flip
side of love - when something or someone we love is threatened, we act to
defend it.  This is as natural among humans as other species.  It's only
when we fail to allow anger to do what it's supposed to do - stir us to
right action - that we start acting stupidly over things we possibly
shouldn't even be angry about.

Just my .02.  Thanks though for your candor in saying what you thought it
was right to say.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Oct  7 21:49:52 1997
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Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:11:26 -0700
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From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Ianto Evans in the Bay Area
References: <v01550100b057a79b2e8a@[199.4.66.31]> <3432707C.79F6@sonic.net>
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Keith Johnson wrote:
> 
> Penny & James wrote:
> >
> > SUSTAINABLE BUILDING:
> > >>LEARNING FROM TRADITIONAL SOCIETIES
> > >>
> > >>SLIDE SHOW AND PRESENTATION BY IANTO EVANS
> > >>At Open Secret Bookstore & Cafe
> > >>October 23, 1997  ~  7:30 to 9:30
> > >>Suggested donation: $10 to $20
> > >>No one turned away for lack of funds
> > >>
> > >>All over the world traditional peoples have used natural building materials
> > >>with reverence and respect for the materials, for their cultural heritage,
> > >>and for the land on which they live. This slide show gives us a profound
> > >>look into the creation of sacred places and the inspirations from which
> > >>wonderful buildings arise.
> > >>Ianto Evans receives his inspiration from extensive work with traditional
> > >>cultures and from the observation of nature. Ianto is a landscape
> > >>architect, applied ecologist, inventor, writer and teacher with building
> > >>experience on six continents. He teaches ecological building and has been a
> > >>consultant for USAID, World Bank, US Peace Corps and foreign governments.
> > >>Ianto encourages and empowers people to take charge of creating their own
> > >>housing by using healthy, resource-efficient and regionally appropriate
> > >>building materials and systems.
> > >>Directions to Open Secret Book Store:
> > >>From San Francisco: Take Hwy. 101 north and exit at the Central San Rafael
> > >>exit. Turn left on Third Street and right onto C Street.
> > >>From the East Bay: Take Hwy. 580 to the Richmond/San Rafael Bridge and
> > >>follow the signs to Hwy. 101 north.  Proceed as above.
> > >>From Sonoma: Take Hwy. 101 south and exit at the Central San Rafael exit.
> > >>Turn right on Third Street and right onto C Street.
> > >>
> > >>This event is sponsored by Dovetail Coalition, a non-profit
> > >>Organization committed to building sustainable communities.
> > >>For more information please call (415) 460-1585 or e-mail dovetail@igc.org
> > >>
> > >>COB AND NATURAL
> > >>BUILDING MATERIALS
> > >>A "GET-YOUR-HANDS-DIRTY" WORKSHOP
> > >>WITH IANTO EVANS AND LINDA SMILEY
> > >>Saturday and Sunday,
> > >>Oct. 25 & 26
> > >>in Occidental
> > >>(about 40 miles north of San Francisco)
> > >>
> > >>Ianto and Linda will present a workshop on building with Cob, a method of
> > >>building using a mixture of earth, sand and straw. Ianto is originally from
> > >>Wales where Cob has traditionally been used for centuries. Ianto and Linda
> > >>live in Oregon and run the Cob Cottage Company.  Both are master cobbers.
> > >>Linda, also a therapist, focuses on intuitive design, sculpting sacred
> > >>space, and building from the inside out. They are committed to helping
> > >>people realize the possibility of escaping the current enmeshment in the
> > >>consumerist model of building and of showing how beautiful, alive,
> > >>healthful living spaces can be created with a minimal flow of cash,
> > >>resources and waste.
> > >>In this workshop we will scavenge the land and explore how to best make
> > >>decisions about using different kinds of materials.  Some of the materials
> > >>we will use and combine are undressed stone, roundwood, earth and straw.
> > >>During the weekend we will construct a small sculptural garden structure.
> > >>This workshop is especially suited for builders, contractors and architects.
> > >>Cost: $225  This includes Thursday night lecture; Saturday evening garden
> > >>tour and dinner at Occidental Arts & Ecology Center; a second and different
> > >>slide show in which Ianto shows beautiful earthen buildings from around the
> > >>world with special focus on recent development in North America; overnight
> > >>camping; and Sunday breakfast & lunch. To register or to receive more
> > >>information call or e-mail Dovetail Coalition.
> > >>
> > >>This event is sponsored by Dovetail Coalition, a non-profit
> > >>organization committed to building sustainable communities.
> > >>For more information please call (415) 460-1585 or e-mail dovetail@igc.org
> > >>Thanks, Nancy McGinley of the Dovetail Coalition
> > >>=======================
> > >>>-- please keep on reading if you are interested in homeless activist work.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Coalition on Homelessness, San Francisco, is in need of student interns
> > >>>to help coordinate a homeless squatter housing project.  The project is
> > >>>called the Vehicularly Housed Residential Community (VHRC) project: a
> > >>>project being developed by a community of squatter's living in vehicles in
> > >>>the China Basin area following a model of tenant run housing.
> > >>>
> > >>>This is a very exciting project as it has grown out of months of community
> > >>>organizing, and because no similar model of homeless housing exists like
> > >>>this in San Francisco (perhaps in the country).  The basic scenario is that
> > >>>the City of San Francisco will lease property in the China Basin area; a
> > >>>nonprofit housing organization will temporarily manage the property until
> > >>>the tenant organization is established enough to takeover management of the
> > >>>property; and tenants will takeover management of property which includes
> > >>>maintenance of the site, paying of lease, employment generation programs,
> > >>>etc..  This is a pilot project which, if successful, will provide a model
> > >>>for the City San Francisco and non-profit housing organizations to develop
> > >>>similar temporary housing projects.
> > >>>
> > >>>If this sounds interesting to you (it could easily be integrated into a
> > >>>design project, or a research project) and if you have time to volunteer at
> > >>>the Coalition on Homelessness (even just 1 day a week), then please call me
> > >>>at 510 -- 628 -- 0735; or email me at <apsalazar@igc.org>; or you can call
> > >>>Judy Appel or Mara Raider at the Coalition of Homelessness, 415 -- 346 --
> > >>>9693.
> > >>
> > >>>-- thank you,
> > >>>Alex Salazar, MS graduate student, architecture
> > >>>
> > >>>P.S. please pass this email onto other people who might be interested in
> > >>>this kind of work.
> > >>
> > >
> > >A. George Beeler,  NCARB
> > >Principal Architect
> > >AIM Associates
> > >210  Fourth  Street, Petaluma, CA 94952-4201
> > >707*763*3300 ® FAX 763*6489
> > > E-mail  AIMassocia@metro.net.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

-- 
Keith 	
keithdj@sonic.net


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 08:54:47 1997
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Subject: Kinship Gardening
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Hi Miekal,

I noticed you mentioning Kapuler and Brentmar's work regarding
co-evolutionary gardening.  This is a subject I've been interested in for a
few years now after hearing Alan speak in San Francisco in '94.

We hope to get a fair representation of leguminous trees that grow well in
our region, central Texas.  It's hot and humid and close to being
subtropical.  I've already got several varieties of seeds and am looking
for more.  The leguminous trees will be planted directly by seed into our
swales which we hope to install this fall.

Direct seeding swales with productive trees is also another project we're
looking into for restoring lands that have been strip mined here in Texas
for lignite coal.  Mixes of seeds could be broadcast over swaled and
unswaled areas from an air plane as well as by hand.  Maybe some of the
Light Hawk pilots would be interested.

Have you had any experience with making kinship or co-evolutionary gardens?
 Take care for now.

        KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX;
512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/]

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 13:08:05 1997
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>Hi Kirb..
>Nice to see you on the mailing list..
>I spent some time with Olafur last summer at his place in Oregon..he has
formerly been on the list that preceded this one though I haven't see his
name lately..(Olaf, are you there?) They were going through very difficult
legal things with the land they were on but had plans and some progress
towards gardens based on the kinship mapping of families of plants.  I was
waiting to get the maps from him when he sort of disappeared in the
intensity of things but I happily found the maps throughout the Deep
Diversity Seed Catalog which is arranged based on the Kinship/Families.
It's all pretty fascinating to study and imagine (and create) gardens based
on the same. Address is P.O. Box 15700, Santa Fe, NM 87506-5700..send $4.00
>
>How's the new place? Love to Inger and Celeste..
>Vicki
>
>
>

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 14:52:37 1997
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I think a useful starting "answer" to the guilds/standard-designs thing
might be the eternally-useful "Both"...

There are, doubtless, some useful basic designs -- very basic, at the
present level of development of this idea -- that can be passed around as
starting points for local elaboration. At the same time, knowledge of
plants in general, and of locally-adapted plants specifically, is very
helpful. Much of that knowledge may need to be gotten by experimentation,
but a lot of valuable time can be saved by a little study, and by sharing
of ideas.

A couple design functions might distinguish a guild from simple companion
planting. The plants used might serve complementary PURPOSES as well as
complementing each other's growth biochemically. The complementary spatial
relationships -- both under- and above-ground -- of guilded plants goes
beyond the traditional companion-planting framework. The idea of guilds as
groupings of mutually-supportive plants for placement into brittle
environments as pioneers for reforrestation also goes beyond
companion-planting. All this is complicated by the fact of succession --
natural environments are rarely static -- and by the unnatural state of the
average garden, wherein stability is usually enforced by violence. And many
permaculural ideas come from the tropics, where perennial starchy plants
abound, and where there is plenty light to grow these under extensive tree
cover. 

Where do we start? The idea of throwing out as many species as possible --
hopefully locally-adapted -- is perfectly valid, and admits the wisdom of
Nature, and our own beginners' status (side note: in research by the Land
Institute, the greater the number of legume species in an initial prairie
mix, the greater the total number of species -- legume and non-legume -- in
the resulting stabilized community). Any known case of happy association --
as in the companion-planting literature, or with the apple-Rubus mixes Dan
mentioned, etc. -- is another good starting point for further elaboration. 
A combination of these two approaches -- basic framework with a handful of
seed thrown in for good measure -- would cover the "both" aspect nicely.
Don't forget some N-fixers.

Few of us have the time, space or financial resources ("space-time-cash"
continuum?) to design numerous combinations and try them out in practice,
which is too bad. Sharing successful ideas (or even hypothetical ones) is
thus very valuable, as is knowing plants well enough to be able to apply
those ideas locally -- though if you don't know plants well, you can try
them anyway, and will learn... perhaps discovering something an expert
would have missed, in the process! As someone -- Lee, Lawrence? --
suggested, unless we monocrop or apply pavement, we'll probably come out
ahead of the game. 

From MAILER-DAEMON Sat Mar 13 10:50:08 1999
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:50:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Mail System Internal Data <MAILER-DAEMON@metalab.unc.edu>
Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA
X-IMAP: 0915414884 0000000111
Status: RO

This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not
a real message.  It is created automatically by the mail system software.
If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created
with the data reset to initial values.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 14:52:37 1997
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I think a useful starting "answer" to the guilds/standard-designs thing
might be the eternally-useful "Both"...

There are, doubtless, some useful basic designs -- very basic, at the
present level of development of this idea -- that can be passed around as
starting points for local elaboration. At the same time, knowledge of
plants in general, and of locally-adapted plants specifically, is very
helpful. Much of that knowledge may need to be gotten by experimentation,
but a lot of valuable time can be saved by a little study, and by sharing
of ideas.

A couple design functions might distinguish a guild from simple companion
planting. The plants used might serve complementary PURPOSES as well as
complementing each other's growth biochemically. The complementary spatial
relationships -- both under- and above-ground -- of guilded plants goes
beyond the traditional companion-planting framework. The idea of guilds as
groupings of mutually-supportive plants for placement into brittle
environments as pioneers for reforrestation also goes beyond
companion-planting. All this is complicated by the fact of succession --
natural environments are rarely static -- and by the unnatural state of the
average garden, wherein stability is usually enforced by violence. And many
permaculural ideas come from the tropics, where perennial starchy plants
abound, and where there is plenty light to grow these under extensive tree
cover. 

Where do we start? The idea of throwing out as many species as possible --
hopefully locally-adapted -- is perfectly valid, and admits the wisdom of
Nature, and our own beginners' status (side note: in research by the Land
Institute, the greater the number of legume species in an initial prairie
mix, the greater the total number of species -- legume and non-legume -- in
the resulting stabilized community). Any known case of happy association --
as in the companion-planting literature, or with the apple-Rubus mixes Dan
mentioned, etc. -- is another good starting point for further elaboration. 
A combination of these two approaches -- basic framework with a handful of
seed thrown in for good measure -- would cover the "both" aspect nicely.
Don't forget some N-fixers.

Few of us have the time, space or financial resources ("space-time-cash"
continuum?) to design numerous combinations and try them out in practice,
which is too bad. Sharing successful ideas (or even hypothetical ones) is
thus very valuable, as is knowing plants well enough to be able to apply
those ideas locally -- though if you don't know plants well, you can try
them anyway, and will learn... perhaps discovering something an expert
would have missed, in the process! As someone -- Lee, Lawrence? --
suggested, unless we monocrop or apply pavement, we'll probably come out
ahead of the game. 

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Oct 14 13:00:03 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale! (fwd)
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--------------------------------------------------------------
 Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm
 mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
--------------------------------------------------------------


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:27:24 -0400
From: Dori Green <funfarm@servtech.com>
To: csa-l@prairienet.org
Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale!

Turnkey 20-acre farm five miles from New York State's #3 tourist
destination.
12-room 3-bedroom house, garage, two-story horse barn, orchards, perennial
herb gardens, and pasture on five acres, $80,000.  Sorry, no land contract
on this parcel.  Includes many pieces of farming equipment, a
commercial-size freezer, woodstove (also has central heat), all major
appliances, even an Aracauna chicken flock and a good start toward your
dairy goat herd if you want them and can convince me you'd take excellent
care of them!

Adjoining 15 acres includes 5 acres of wild strawberries, 3 acres of wild
rasp- and blackberries, a bog full of cattails and Joe-Pye Weed, and a
2-acre market garden limed and seeded to winter rye for next year's harvest
-- $10,000, will consider a five-year land contract with 50% down.

Country auction house and 3D archery range next door, about 200 people
visit there every Saturday night and many buy vegetables.  New farmer's
market in town.

Reason for sale:  I've accepted a CSA facilitator position in Puget Sound
and will be relocating before Christmas.  My marriage dissolved at this
farm, it holds as many bad memories as good ones and I'm ready for new
beginnings.  It's too much for one person, but a team could do very well
here.  I'll be glad to include a list of past CSA members and other market
contacts.

Dori Green:  Writer, Farmer, Facilitator
Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living
http://www.servtech.com/public/funfarm/index.html

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Oct 16 15:55:55 1997
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From: allixes@sprynet.com (Allixandria Sherral)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Early Winter
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I just saw the first wave of sandhill cranes to fly over at least 2 to 4
weeks earlier than usual plus the Lubbock area had its first threat of
frost this week also two weeks ahead of schedule.  Does anyone else have
other signs to report about an early winter and possible a hard one?   El
Nino is at it again.

Allixandria Sherral
allixes@sprnet.com
Wolfforth, Texas


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Nov 25 03:17:38 1997
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From: "john valenzuela" <johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Agroforestry workshops
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             Announcing a presentation and two workshops 
                    on the Big Island of Hawai'i:


                  Making a Living from Agroforestry


December 19 (Fri) 6 pm 'til closing 
At the Na'alehu theater, no charge
Presentation by Michael Pilarski, including a slide show on agroforestry 
systems from around the world.

December 20 (Sat) 10:00 am to 5:00 pm workshop 
At the Na'alehu theater 
Presenters: Michael Pilarski, John Valenzuela, Douglas Bullock
DRY climates on Hawai'i will the focus
Sponsored by the Ka'u Agro-Forestry Association
Contact: Bob Jacobson, KAFA PO Box 727, Na'alehu, Hawai'i 96772
Tel:(808)966-8831 Email: jacobs@hgea.org

December 21 (Sun) 10:00 am to 5:00 pm workshop
At Kalopa State Park (near Paauilo, Hamakua) 
Presenters: Michael Pilarski, Joseph Dalrymple, John Valenzuela, and 
Douglas Bullock
WET climates on Hawai'i will be the focus
Directions: Look for the signs just north of Paauilo. Kalopa Park is 3 
miles above the main highway. We will meet at the pavilion.
Sponsored by the Hamakua Guild of Agroforesters 
Contact: Howard Wright PO Box 11414, 106 Wainaku St. Hilo, 
Hawai'i 96721 Tel:(808)982-7133

Both full day workshops will provide an introduction to agroforestry and 
permaculture, and report on the recommendations from our Moloka'i 
permaculture course. Information will be presented on establishment, 
planting patterns, species selection and water management for each focus 
climate. Be prepared for a field trip or walk to look at trees and local 
landscapes. We will discuss  many different kinds of agroforestry crops 
including: high-value timber, bamboo, mushrooms, medicinal herbs, seeds, 
lei material, essential oils, ornamentals, fiber, craftwood and more... 
Each workshop is $25, bring a lunch.



John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778 USA
message phone: (808)331-3049
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Nov 27 20:43:49 1997
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please please please somebody tell me how to UNSUBSCRIBE.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Dec  2 11:54:49 1997
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From: rachel@devnull.net (Rachel Freifelder)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: garden internship at Dancing Rabbit Village
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ECOVILLAGE GARDEN INTERNSHIPS

Wanted: An intern, for a period of three to six months during the calendar
year 1998, to assist in farming and food production at Dancing Rabbit in
Rutledge, Missouri.

The Project

Dancing Rabbit is a new ecovillage in northeast Missouri. As a
demonstration project, it will coalesce many threads of ecological design
and technology in order to build a truly sustainable human settlement on
the scale of a small town (approximately 1000 residents). Its purpose is to
be a model for future development and retrofits along ecologically
sustainable lines in North America.  Dancing Rabbit will research and
develop social, economic, and technological systems that enable humans to
live comfortably while integrating with rather than degrading the
ecosystems of which they are a part.

The Land and the Farm

At present, the Dancing Rabbit Land Trust (site of future Dancing Rabbit
town) owns 280 acres of beautiful rolling hills 50 miles west of the
Mississippi River. Intensive design of the ecovillage is occurring during
the fall and winter of 1997, with building to commence in the spring of
1998. As part of the ecological demonstration project, Dancing Rabbit plans
to grow all its own food in a manner that is sustainable for our land and
our bioregion, without petrochemical inputs and minimizing inputs from
other regions.  Farm and garden work will be done by hand or by draft
animals, with possible occasional uses of a biofuel-powered tractor.  In
our first growing season, with hand labor only, we grew all the vegetables
we needed for 8 residents and many short-term visitors, and canned over 500
quarts of fruit and vegetables to get us through the winter.  With season
extension structures and dry fruit storage, we had fresh tomatoes in
November and greens all winter.  We also grew some staples (potatoes and
beans) though not enough to last all winter.  Our only input was composted
green waste from the nearby town of Memphis.

Our gardening fits into our overall living system according to ecological
and permacultural principles.  We use a variety of methods, including
biointensive raised beds, no-till/no-weed beds, living mulches,
polycultural mixes.  We recycle greywater into the garden, as well as
kitchen scraps, livestock manure and composted human wastes.

In the next year we plan to grow more staples, learn to work with our draft
horse, establish an herb garden, and add fruit trees to the edible
landscape around our houses.

Intern Work Requirements

An intern would be expected to participate in all aspects of food
production at Dancing Rabbit, from bed preparation to composting to harvest
and processing, and possibly including research, either experimental or
literature-based, into methods to optimize the sustainability and
productivity of our food system.  We value and honor whatever knowledge and
experience the intern brings.  Work will often be side-by side with
residents of Dancing Rabbit.  Work hours will be arranged with the garden
coordinator, and will probably average 20-30 hours per week over the course
of an intern's stay at Dancing Rabbit.  The intern will be welcome to join
the community in other activities, such as studies of local ecology,
foraging for wild plants, construction of our first straw bale cabin, and
work for neighbor farmers.  Alternately, the intern could conduct other
projects of his or her choice or simply take time to swim in the ponds and
otherwise enjoy what the land has to offer.  This should be considered an
opportunity to practice whatever skills one has, and to participate in a
mutual learning process within Dancing Rabbit's development.

Supervision

The intern will work with and be supervised by the garden coordinator,
Rachel Freifelder, and by the animal manager, Jennifer Ray.   Rachel has a
master's degree in Ecology from Stanford University in Stanford, CA,
studied Agroecology and Soil Science for two years at the University of
California at Davis, and has experience in organic farming and gardening.
Jennifer has extensive experience training, driving and caring for horses,
and is Secretary of the Missouri Organic Crop Improvement Association.
Other Dancing Rabbit members also do considerable garden or farm work.  The
intern can expect ample advice and assistance where needed, and can also
expect his/her ideas to be taken seriously.

Other

Housing will be free of charge and provided by Dancing Rabbit. It may be a
group housing situation in which the intern would receive a private bedroom
and shared bathrooms and kitchens. Alternately, attractive camping sites
are available during months of fair weather (May - September). Organic,
vegan food will be provided by Dancing Rabbit and will also be in a
cooperative situation. The intern may be asked to help with cooking and
cleaning during his or her stay at Dancing Rabbit. Details may be discussed
on an ad hoc basis.

Unfortunately, Dancing Rabbit is not able to offer interns a stipend at
this point. However, interns will have access to the same benefits as other
Dancing Rabbit members, including tools, building materials, computer and
Internet resources, travel to nearby cities, our extensive ecologically
oriented library, and so forth. In addition, Dancing Rabbit may be able to
assist interns with travel to and from the site.

Procedure

Contact Rachel Freifelder at 3936 Clarke St., Oakland CA 94609 before Jan
25, or at Dancing Rabbit thereafter (info in the letterhead). Questions or
requests for more information are welcomed. If more convenient, prospective
interns may arrange an interview to take place in Chicago, IL or Berkeley,
CA that will help the intern and Dancing Rabbit assure that this position
is right for both parties concerned. If this is desired, contact Jacob
Stevens at 847-328-1187 or jasper@nwu.edu (Chicago) or Rachel Freifelder at
510-655-2936 or rachel@devnull.net (Berkeley).  For detailed information on
Dancing Rabbit, see http://www.dancingrabbit.org.


From pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk  Mon Dec  8 07:43:27 1997
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To: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permanet@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Plants For A Future Database
Status: RO
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Hi,
	The Plants For A Future Database is now back online.
The database has details of the Edible, Medicinal and Other uses
of nearly 7000 useful plants. And contains details of
growing conditions, scents, habitats and cultivars.
As well as Latin and Common Names.

You can find the database at two sites: 
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html (UK)
and
	http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/pfaf/D_search.html (US)

You may have encountered this database before as the Plant-Tracker
which unfortunately had to be withdrawn.

	Hope you enjoy using it

		Rich

--
Plants For A Future http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ 

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Dec  8 11:37:05 1997
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From: pfaf@scs.leeds.ac.uk
To: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permanet@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Plants For A Future Database
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 
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Hi,
	The Plants For A Future Database is now back online.
The database has details of the Edible, Medicinal and Other uses
of nearly 7000 useful plants. And contains details of
growing conditions, scents, habitats and cultivars.
As well as Latin and Common Names.

You can find the database at two sites: 
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/D_search.html (UK)
and
	http://www.sunsite.unc.edu/pfaf/D_search.html (US)

You may have encountered this database before as the Plant-Tracker
which unfortunately had to be withdrawn.

	Hope you enjoy using it

		Rich

--
Plants For A Future http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ 

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Dec 11 00:19:46 1997
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