From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Fri Oct  7 20:02:10 1994
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Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e9498a8.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
        permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: A


>To: 
>
>Hi Mike, and all. 
>
>I find it best to add a piece at a time as you are comfortable and feel the
>need.  

Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.

I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
and I couldn't tell them of one.

I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
down that track in Perth Western Australia.

This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
well as a forum to network more Permaculture.


>I've been learning about Permaculture for 6-8 years now, and i think it is a
>continually evolving field.  Each of us can increase our web of knowledge
>about the processes which surround us and our part in them for as long as
>we're here.  

I was working on sustainability on my farm, and on Permaculture since 
I left the farm, so some of my experiences are similar to you Bill.

I have had access to Internet for about 2 years.

I now also wish I had my grand parents to talk to about their experience
particularly during the depression, when the farm was almost a fully
contained unit.

I still have a memory of all of the smells and tastes.

>Bill Christensen
>bchris@txinfinet.com
>
>  
>  Sent via FirstClass (R) UUCP Gateway from InfiNet*
>    an online community for progressive information
>        Austin, Texas USA * BBS 512.301.2151 
> 

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:29:42 1994
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 06:35:10 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e971ea4.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>
>On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Victor Guest wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 07 Oct 1994 08:38:57 WST
>> From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>> To: bchristensen@txinfinet.com,
>>     permaculture list <perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au>
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Victor, can you tell us how we may subscribe to your permaculture
>mailing list in OZ?
>

Well up to date this is a closed list, and I have written to the list
to ask for permission to include you on the list.

A list server has been compiled and should be available for this job.

>> Cc: permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>> Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>> Hi I would like to break into this discussion, and ask if through this
>> mail list we might consider getting a news group organised. I may be out 
>> of order as my knowledge of the net is limited.
>
>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

My thoughts on this are that maybe we should take the agriculture out of
it so that it doesn't get tooo long.
I envision that we would have news groups which reflect the diversity of
permaculture. Also to help us define the FAQ's.

I see things MAYBE!!! developing along these lines.

alt.permaculture.aquaculture.
alt.permaculture.design
alt.permaculture.energy
alt.permaculture.small animals
alt.permaculture.biodegradables
alt.permaculture.marketing
alt.permaculture.herbs
alt.permaculture.dryland
alt.permaculture.literature
alt.permaculture.culture.Re-evaluation co-counselling
                        .Christian
                        .Aboriginal    
          \             .Ethnic
          [:-)>         .ETC.........
          /
Once again I have posted this to the Perma list for comment, discussion and
ratification.

>> I have seen postings by people who asked about a permaculture news group
>> and I couldn't tell them of one.
>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that purpose; of 
>course, permaculture-related articles appear in sanet-mg, 
>alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd like to 
>archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of us are working on one here 
>in the U.S.

We have offered to be part of compiling the FAQ's and to cache it here.
The webserver is up and running and an area for permaculture is being 
prepared with the Faq's being a part of that.

>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED field as 
>> well as a forum to network more Permaculture.
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture that 
>arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an important part
>of educating the public.

We have a membership list of 726, with the new one ready to come out.
The numbers on E-mail is growing expotentially, and we expect to nab a heap
more at the AGM-community day-Christmas party, to be held at the Edith
Cowan University, on the 15th(16) of Nov.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au!vic@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sat Oct  8 22:30:15 1994
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Date: Sun, 09 Oct 1994 07:25:42 WST
From: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
Message-Id: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.



Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is

http://203.5.184.1/

At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.

Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----

From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 22:42:39 1994
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Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:24:35 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e987bb5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: Vic Guest <vic.guest@eepo.dialix.oz.au>,
        Darren Longbottom <darren@eepo.dialix.oz.au>
Subject: Pc FAQ etc
Status: RO
X-Status: 

To: vic,darren
Cc: london@sunsite.unc.edu
 
Subject: Re: Getting started... (fwd)

Larry, could you subscribe me to permaculture-mg please.
I have not been receiving any feed although I thought I had followed
the instructions you sent me about two months ago. Help! Thanks.

>I have thought about this myself and the newsgroup name:
>alt.agriculture.permaculture seems appropriate. If you or someone else 
>will write the statement of purpose for the group I'll have the newsgroup 
>formed here at my newssite.

I would suggest most strongly that alt.permaculture or alt.pc is 
more appropriate that any other title. If in due course there 
comes to be enough traffic to warrant it, then there might be a 
subgroups(s); 
		alt.pc.farm.dry.temp,
		alt.pc.farm.tropic,
		alt.pc.village, 
		alt.pc.money, 
		alt.pc.smallanimal, 
		alt.pc.backyard. 
		alt.pc.zone0
		etc

It might be that other extant groups overlap with one of these 
sub-categories. In which case we use either name for a double
access pathway (??sounds about right)

Pc is a generic approach to a variety of human and biological 
systems that looks at the system as a whole first. Let's start 
inclusive.

>alt.sustainable.agriculture is currently being used for that 
purpose; of course, permaculture-related articles appear in 
sanet-mg, alt.agriculture.misc, and elsewhere.
>
>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as 
we are well down that track in Perth Western Australia.

Well, actually, we (EEPO) have a front page, and have started to 
talk about a Pc FAQ.. we have nowhere near the setup Larry has. 

>I have a permaculture information Gopher here at sunSITE. I'd 
>like to archive your FAQ when it's completed. Several of are 
>working on one here in the U.S.
>
>> This will help cater for people who are in the GETTING STARTED 
>> field as well as a forum to network more Permaculture.

I would see it working much better as a directory service. The FAQ, 
and the occasional chat between people who know, and a directory
of contacts seems more appropriate to me that the building of an 
expert system.

There are too many variables, and the intellectual task of 
codifying and compiling it all is immense. 

Then there is the much more important task of implementing each 
bit you learn.. 

Slowly slowly, knowing that it will take four lifetimes to 
start to understand it.. with enthusiasm!

Pc IS about building a culture, of grounded people, on the ground.
So let's use this medium as just that - a linking, an agent for
introductions. 

We must remember Bill's injunction about work-netting, not 
net-working. This is hard for us e-mailers..
>
>It would be a big help in answering questions about permaculture 
>that arise on the net. The regular posting of FAQs would be an 
>important part of educating the public.
>
Disagree - delete "important part of" and insert "starting point 
for" 
>
>This is the reply I got to the letter I posted to Perma recently.
>Please  think about the idea and let us know  your ideas.
>
> Do you want this to be an open permaculture list???

For others, an open list is one that anyone on the internet can 
subscribe to, at any time, for no fee. 

My view is that it could start that way, but that it would 
probably develop quickly into an honest sampling that invites 
people to subscribe to an electronic "magazine". 

An open list is like asking Bill to make the Designers Manual 
(with a better index!) available free of charge. This is 
unrealistic.

All my experience suggests that people do not place much value 
on stuff they get for free. Or that the people who do value it 
are most likely to be the ones who can afford to pay for it..  

I have now been placing my expensively accumulated knowledge on 
the net in rec.gardens and alt.sustainable.agriculture "free" for
two reasons. One is to balance out the contribution I have received
from others that I value - a reciprocation that I regard as an 
ethical way to conduct myself.  The other is to quietly "market" 
my viewpoint and my knowledge, so something like the subscription 
magazine would not be launched "cold".

There is a growing group of people attempting to make a modest 
livelihood from Pc education and design services, and we should 
expect to pay them for their accumulated knowledge and experience.


>We would provide a cache on the web for the Permaculture FAQ's, 
>as they are developed. (I think)
>
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


From bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au!warwick@eepo.dialix.oz.au Sun Oct  9 23:03:00 1994
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X-Mailer: *Cinetic Mail Manager V2.1
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 07:50:44 WST
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.dialix.oz.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-Id: <2e9881d5.bettong@bettong.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
To: vic@daena.eepo.dialix.oz.au
Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.eepo.dialix.oz.au,
        permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Getting started...
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>From: vic@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au (Victor Guest)
>Message-ID: <2e972a7b.daena@daena.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au>
>To: london@calypso-2.oit.unc.edu
>Cc: bchristensen@txinfinet.com, perma@cessysv.EEPO.DIALix.oz.au, permaculture-mg@twosocks.ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: Getting started...
>
>>> I know there is an FAQ being worked on for a WEB server, as we are well
>>> down that track in Perth Western Australia.
>
>
>
>Sorry about omitting our WWW URL from the previous post. It is
>
>http://203.5.184.1/
>
>At the moment it provides general access info about EEPO people, and some
>information of interest to the agriculturally inclined.
>
>Regards,
>          Vic
>--
>Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                      Perth, Western Australia
>vic.guest@eepo.com.au                         3 McKee Plce Kingsley. 6206
>                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 3092108
>--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:----


How about a copy on the email for us poor peasants who haven't got 
IP access? So we know what it says.

Wx
--
 _____________________________________________________________
|              warwick.rowell@eepo.dialix.oz.au               |
|                                                             |
|    Management Consultant      Permaculture Designer         |
|__"Helping Managers Learn"____"Helping Land Managers Learn"__|


