From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Feb 20 14:59:41 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Another Permaculture mailing list
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Hi everyone,

After the permaculture-mg mailing list was terminated
a few days ago, Lawrence London & I each initiated the 
creation of a new list, so we now have two new lists!
This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

First of all, to any of you who receive duplicate
postings or don't wish to participate in this list,
please send a message to listproc@envirolink.org
Include the line
    unsub permaculture
in the body of the message.
Or, write to yount@csf.colorado.edu and I'll remove
you by hand.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

To contribute to the list, send mail to 
	permaculture@envirolink.org

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
	Lawrence London,  london@sunsite.unc.edu
	Natasha Teoli,    nteoli@idirect.com
	Michael Yount,    yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.

Thanks,

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Feb 20 19:08:41 1997
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From: shea@xmission.com (Gary Shea)
To: yount@csf.Colorado.EDU, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list
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I used to have a permaculture list here at
xmission, but I dismantled it once I found
permaculture-mg.  I really don't see anything
but trouble in two parallel mailing lists...
what's the point?

At 12:57 PM 2/20/97 -0700, Michael Yount wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>After the permaculture-mg mailing list was terminated
>a few days ago, Lawrence London & I each initiated the 
>creation of a new list, so we now have two new lists!
>This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
>at Envirolink.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary Shea                                          Salt Lake City, Utah
shea@xmission.com                         http://www.xmission.com/~shea

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Feb 20 19:08:46 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:59:49 MST."
             <199702202202.PAA13637@mail.xmission.com> 
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Gary,

I hear that what others call waste, permaculturalists view
as an opportunity.  There are lots of ways in which we
could divide the lists by subject or volume, but I think
Lawrence, Natasha, and I agree that it's best if you all
decide how to use our two lists.

As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Take care,

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

 :}I used to have a permaculture list here at
 :}xmission, but I dismantled it once I found
 :}permaculture-mg.  I really don't see anything
 :}but trouble in two parallel mailing lists...
 :}what's the point?
 :}
 :}-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 :}Gary Shea                                          Salt Lake City, Utah
 :}shea@xmission.com                         http://www.xmission.com/~shea

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 00:05:03 1997
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Feb 21 00:08:26 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Feb 25 09:29:55 1997
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Position for an experienced organic gardener available at Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center.  Experience needed in organic food production in
high desert Southwest landscape, permaculture concepts, fruit orchard
development, and teaching of interns.  Vegetarian and spiritual lifestyle
in a health provider community on 166 permaculture-designed acres on a
mesa in the Patagonia mountains at 4,100 feet.  Please send resume,
letter of interest, and photo to: Gabriel Cousens, M.D. Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center, P O Box 1080, Patagonia, AZ 85624.  Call
520-394-2060 for further information.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Feb 28 12:38:46 1997
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I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas and have a gunite inground pool.  Every
summer I cringe at the amount of chemicals I have to put into the pool (and
back flush into my yard!).  I'd rather use it for rainwater harvesting and
fish production if there was some way to keep it clean enough to still swim
in.  Have anyone tried such a conversion or have any ideas about how to do
it?  Thanks, Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Mar  3 12:19:53 1997
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=======================================
PERMACULTURE mailing list at Envirolink
=======================================

From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu
Natasha Teoli, nteoli@idirect.com
Michael Yount, yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.
Thanks,
Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

==============================
Subscribing and unsubscribing:

i.e., send email to:
listproc@envirolink.org
Leave the Subject: line blank. 

In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing:
subscribe permaculture yourname
or if you're unsubscribing type: 
unsubscribe permaculture yourname
(you can also use the words unsub or signoff)

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subscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer
or:
unsubscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer

====
To contribute to the list, send mail to 
permaculture@envirolink.org


==================================================================
Permaculture Mailing List at U.N.C.: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
==================================================================

Here is brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for 
details on the U.N.C. listserver which uses the ListProc software.
-    
To subscribe to a list, either use the WILP page:
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/
or more specifically:
http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver:
http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08
or just start at http://help/unc.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Or manually subscribe by email:
-------------------------------
 
The address to subscribe to permaculture is: 
listserv@unc.edu. 

i.e., send email to:
listserv@unc.edu
Leave the Subject: line blank. 

In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing:
subscribe permaculture yourname
or if you're unsubscribing type: 
unsubscribe permaculture yourname
(you can also use the words unsub or signoff)

ie.: 
subscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer
or:
unsubscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer

To post to all the subscribers of the list:
-------------------------------------------

Send your article by email to:
permaculture@listserv.unc.edu

IMPORTANT:
==========
Write down and save the email ID you posted from and the 
name you used to subscribe to the list.
If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be useful;
also, this list is configured to only allow subscribers to 
post articles.

Contact: Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner 
with any questions, requests or suggestions.






From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar  4 19:19:03 1997
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From: "M. Mattox" <mmattox@u.washington.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: diversity v monoculture and climate change
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I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
appreciate the input. 
I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
studies would be helpful.
As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
Thanks, Megan

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar  6 12:44:47 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: mmattox@u.washington.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 04 Mar 1997 16:12:40 PST."
             <Pine.A41.3.95b.970304160329.40098A-100000@dante12.u.washington.edu> 
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Megan,

You might try:

Scoones, I., et al., 1996, 
Hazards and Opportunities: Farming Livelihoods in Dryland
   Africa - Lessons from Zimbabwe, 
London and New Jersey: Zed Books 

It goes into detail about the different ways in which
rural people in Zimbabwe coped with the disastrous droughts
in 1991 and '92.  (By "systems" I'm hoping you mean human
communities, too.)

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu


 :}	
 :}I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
 :}biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
 :}climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
 :}appreciate the input. 
 :}I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
 :}studies would be helpful.
 :}As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
 :}the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
 :}be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
 :}Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
 :}Thanks, Megan
 :}

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar 11 09:33:52 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Fukuoka Videos
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Hello everybody,

I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
(NFRDC) in
Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks very much,
Maddy

Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


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Hello everybody,

I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
(NFRDC) in
Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks very much,
Maddy

Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar 13 04:14:52 1997
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From: nexus@unisql.saitama-j.or.jp (Kenkichi Muramatsu)
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Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos
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At 11:37 PM 97.3.11, Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine wrote:
> I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
> Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
> is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
> (NFRDC) in
> Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
> Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
> the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
> NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.
Hi
The address of Nature Farming Research and Development Center is as follows;
P.O. Box 26, Atami-city  Zip 413-91
Shizuoka Japan
Tel: +81-557-81-0567  Fax: +81-557-81-0560
More information, please visit Website
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/naturefarm.html
-----
Kenkichi Muramatsu
e-mail: info@nexus-i.com, nexus@saitama-j.or.jp
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/index.html



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From: seedsave@om.com.au (Seed Savers, Australia.)
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Dear friends,

You may know of a Community Based Organisation or indigenous group needing
the kind of Community Seed bank we work on.

Our next Seed Saving, Banking and Networking Course is here in Byron Bay at
the Arts Factory on April 22nd, 23rd and 24th. For details, contact us
below.

Best regards,
Michel and Jude Fanton, Directors
Seed Savers' Network, Box 975, Byron Bay, NSW 2481, Australia.
Tel/ fax:  Int: 61-66-856-624.
Email: seedsave@om.com.au
homepage: http://www.om.com.au/seedsave

WHO WE ARE

The Seed Savers' Network is an Australian non-profit organisation. It is
the public component of The Seed Savers' Trust for Australia and the Seed
Aid Trust for overseas work and was founded by educators and authors Jude
and Michel Fanton in 1986. The principle aim of the Seed Savers is to
preserve agricultural biodiversity along with individual farmers, gardeners
and community groups. In this way Seed Savers has helped put the
conservation of original useful plants including fruits, vegetables,
medicinals and fibres on the public agenda. Over recent years, The Seed Aid
Trust has fostered similar networks in the Solomon Islands, Tonga, the
Caribbean islands, and is presently negotiating with other developing
countries.

Seed Savers' major activities include:
* Establishing community-based seed networks of useful plants in Australia
and developing countries - national, regional and local
* Establishing seed banks and field banks for non-hybrid locally-adapted
varieties
* Gathering and recording data on the varieties in the networks and seed
banks for easy public access, for research and for exchange between parties
* Education and training in all aspects of seed saving, banking and
networking for community development projects - domestic and overseas
* Promoting and publicising the need to conserve useful plants through the
printed and electronic media, addressing and conducting public meetings and
conferences
* Dissemination of information through publication of newsletters, two
versions of The Seed Savers' Handbook, in Australia and the UK, an Internet
page and regular media contributions
* Providing technical assistance to community development projects

Seed Savers exchanges seeds and shares information with:
Schools
Museums
Botanic gardens
Departments of Agriculture
Community and service groups
Family non-hybrid seed companies
Garden clubs and organic growers groups
Seed specialists from around the world
Scientific, research and education institutions
International, intergovernmental, national biodiversity, humanitarian
organisations and development agencies

WHAT WE BELIEVE IN

* Conservation of agricultural biodiversity achieved through the active
involvement of farmers and gardeners
* Local seed production using local knowledge and varieties
* Access to a wide range of useful plants for small sustainable
agricultural systems including urban food production leading to domestic
food sovereignty
* Environmentally sensitive small-scale community development based on the
sustainable management of local resources.

WHAT WE HAVE BEEN DOING

The growth of national seed networks is the basis of much of our activity
over the last eleven years. In Australia over 10 000 farmers and gardeners
have been involved in the network, exchanging seeds through the newsletter.
In other countries we have conducted Community Seed Bank Training,
resulting in seed networks being established, for example in Cuba, la Red
de Semillas is currently administered by the chief extensionist and the
Director of Projects at the Department  of Urban Agriculture, Havana.

COMMUNITY SEED BANK TRAINING
Australia:
Community Seed Bank Training (CSBT) has been provided to keen gardeners,
Seed Saver volunteers, garden club members and overseas NGO seed bankers.
Seed Savers has brought a strong seed saving component to over fifty
Permaculture Design Courses which Jude and Michel have lectured at or
taught.
Other countries:
The Seed Savers' Trust has been invited to train community based
organisations and department of agriculture extensionists, teachers,
nutritionists and women's groups to establish planting material seed
networks.
CSBT courses have been conducted with partner agencies and funding bodies
in these countries:
* Solomon Islands in October 1995 (with an organic farmers' network, Kastom
Garden Project, funded by AusAID through Appropriate Technology for
Community and Environment, Sydney),
* Cuba in January 1996 (with Fundacion por la Naturaleza y Hombre, funded
by AusAID through Permaculture Global Assistance Network),
* Tonga July 1996 (with an indigenous NGO, the Tonga Trust, a peak Tongan
women's group and the Education Department, funded by the Tudor Trust and
the Commonweath Foundation).
Seed Savers is providing ongoing technical assistance to these groups and
plans to provide training in other countries in 1997.
Further courses are now taught by some of the trainees to villagers in the
Solomons, school children in Tonga, and farmers and market gardeners in
Cuba.

MAINTAINING SEED BANKS AND DATABASES

Australian National Seed Savers Seed Bank, Byron Bay:
Over 4 000 samples of seed of useful plants have come through Seed Savers'
Seed Bank - all are catalogued, germination tested, repackaged and sent to
experienced growers. Each year 20 000 seed packets are filled and labelled
by volunteers and distributed free of charge to individual members of the
public, community groups, schools, development projects and small scale
seed companies.
Seed Savers Spring Newsletter has a list of planting material available
from subscribers which represents an in situ seed bank in several thousand
gardens curated by our network of seed savers.
The central database records a number for every seed lot donated to the
network. The database became computerised in July 1995 and now holds a
wealth of information about variety performance suitable for conducting
research programmes.

Other countries:
Seed networks have been set up and seed banks and databases have been
established in three other countries following our Community Seed Bank
Training. Databases of the seeds, and other propagules discovered,
collected and made available to the community have begun in these
countries.
In the Solomon Islands, the fourth newsletter/plant listing was published
in December 1996 and there is the Central Link Seed Bank and Gardens at
Burns Creek and a plant and seed bank at the Provincial Hospital on
Choiseul.
A seed network, la Red de Semillas, is currently administered by the chief
extensionist and the Director of Projects at the Department  of Urban
Agriculture, Havana.
In Tonga a seed bank has been developed by the Tonga Trust with a special
emphasis on distribution of open pollinated rare local corn, locally proven
vegetables and leguminous soil improvers. The first newsletter of the Save
Our Seeds seed network on local seed production and distribution was issued
in November 1996.

PERMACULTURE COURSES

Australia:
Seed Savers have taught eighteen two week Permaculture Design Courses and
several Introduction to Permaculture Courses. It has been a useful vehicle
to introduce seed saving to people with a wide spectrum of interests and to
bring it to the heart of sustainable systems.

Other countries:
Seed Savers has adapted the basic Permaculture Design Course and other
Permaculture courses to suit the conditions of several countries. Jude and
Michel have taught in a variety of situations including in the Republic of
Palau, South Africa, UK and Fiji.

PUBLISHING ANNUAL NEWSLETTERS

* The newsletter which has a 28 page format is sent to Seed Savers
subscribers, media and to many sister groups
* The current issue No. 21, Spring 1996  has a vast annotated list of 1100
varieties grown by gardeners and farmers across Australia. It is an
exciting representation of the diversity of vegetables, fruits, nuts and
other useful plants available.
* Autumn newsletter has articles about plant diversity, techniques of seed
production and storage, global and national issues including intellectual
property rights, food production and marketing systems and bio-engineering
such as labelling of genetically modified food stuff.

WRITING AND PUBLISHING THE SEED SAVERS' HANDBOOK

To produce the Handbook, Michel and Jude drew on their experience of their
many years of gardening where seed selection and correct storage were
fundamental components. Following the in-house publication, in early 1993,
demand is ensuring the ongoing publishing and distribution of The Handbook.
In the first four years 16 000 copies were sold, over 300 of which were
purchased by libraries.
A cool climate version of the Handbook was also published in UK by Grover
Books in 1996 and is now available throughout Europe.

INTERNET

Seed Savers' published a Homepage, in construction, with a database of 1100
seed entries, none of which are available through commercial channels. It
is supplied by and available to members: http//www.om.com.au/seedsave

CONDUCTING ANNUAL CONFERENCES

Every year since 1988 during the last weekend in October, Seed Savers has
convened an Annual Conference. Information is shared on the theme of
community conservation of plant genetic resources and Permaculture-related
subjects. Speakers include prominent authors and scientists, practitioners,
media personalities and sustainable agriculture strategists. There are also
workshops, a small trade fair, and a brisk seed exchange.

PARTICIPATING IN CONFERENCES

Seed Savers' Directors, Michel and Jude Fanton have delivered papers and
talks on a number of subjects related to the community conservation of crop
germplasm and Intellectual Property issues.
* Diggers Seed Club Campout Convention, Melbourne, March 1997
* International Workshop on Improving Seed Supply Strategies to Pacific
Island Countries, Nadi, Fiji, November 1996,
* Sixth International Permaculture Conference, Perth, October 1996,
* Traditional healers at the Pacific Festival of Arts, Apia, September 1996,
* National Student Conference on the Environment, Lismore, June 1996
* FAO Commission, NGO Summit on Plant Genetic Resources, Rome, April 1996,
* Fourth International Botanic Gardens Conservation Congress, Perth,
September 1995,
* Australian Council of Tree and Nut Crops, Lismore, August 1995,
* Australian Council for Overseas Aid, Canberra, August 1995,
* First International Women in Agriculture Conference, Melbourne, July 1994,
* Gardenesque, Vaucluse House, Sydney, March 1992.
We have not been able to respond to a number of invitations for lack of funding.

RESEARCH
Seed Savers Library holds over 800 ethnobotanical books, old seed
catalogues, a wide variety of national and international journals and a
databank of thousands of letters which have accompanied seed donations. It
is continually updated with donations of materials. This information source
is accessed by staff and volunteers to compile articles and conference
papers.


WHERE WE ARE GOING

We are currently negotiating the following projects:

Australia:
We are actively moving towards establishing regional and local networks
* with the national and regional garden club associations,
* with community garden groups, schools, organic growers clubs, regional
seed exchanges and permaculture associations.

Other Countries:
* Establishment of networks after Community Seed Bank Training in Vietnam,
Cambodia, India, Western Samoa, Kiribati, Philippines, Vanuatu, Fiji and
American Samoa.
* Scholarships for overseas students to study seed saving in Australia,
* Training of overseas volunteers who will work in agriculture programmes.

Globally:
* Seed Savers inaugurated The Global Permaculture Plant and Seed Exchange
at the Sixth International Permaculture Conference in Perth October 1996,
to facilitate movement of planting material for projects working with
peoples who have been marginalised by logging, ranching, export agriculture
and mining.
* Publication of the first Global Directory in 1997. If a sub or tropical
group wants to offer a seed listing please send one hundred words about it
now!

WHERE WE WANT TO GO

UPGRADING SEED SAVERS' PRESERVATION GARDENS
The Seed Savers  Office and Seed Bank presently occupy four rooms of the
rented home of the Directors, Jude and Michel Fanton, in suburban Byron
Bay. Easier public access and greater efficiency will be achieved by
separating the base from this domestic situation. Storage facilities in the
Seed Bank need upgrading and a dehumidified cool room for mid to long term
storage of posterity samples.

ESTABLISHING SEED SAVERS' PRESERVATION GARDENS
Preservation gardens where varietal diversity of useful plants is gathered,
trialled, demonstrated, propagated and disseminated; for open-pollinated
plant varieties. The gardens would surround Seed Savers' headquarters near
Byron Bay where it would serve as an education facility and as a living
central repository.

ESTABLISHING A TRAINING CENTRE FOR CSB COURSES AND INTERNS
Within the gardens there should be a facility for conducting talks,
lectures, and courses. We plan to have interns and trainees from overseas
for both short and extended periods of time.

EXTENDING COMMUNITY SEED BANK TRAINING INTO OTHER REGIONS
It is intended that seed networks be established in developing countries in
these regions: the Pacific, then South East Asia, South Asia, Africa and
South America; enquiries and invitations have already been received from
these parts of the world.

EDUCATION PROGRAMMES IN AUSTRALIAN SCHOOLS
These include: input on Environmental Education Curricula in NSW, with
trials in Northern Rivers region, through environmental and agriculture
teachers; a programme of Local Original Fruit and Nut Trees in Schools and
an education kit containing teacher notes, slides and student workbooks.

TRAINING VIDEOS
These would provide a graphic display of seed saving techniques suitable
for schools, further education and general promotion.
Applied research and information gathering
As part of the Preservation Gardens, trials would be made on comparative
varietal performance. We also need to retrieve information that has been
sent to us over the years, and carry out a formal survey of our
subscribers, on varietal performance.

FURTHER PUBLICATIONS
To continue on from The Seed Savers' handbook we plan to produce a series
of handbooks on beverages, fibres, fodder crops, perfumes, spices and other
groups of useful plants. We also intend to write booklets on seed saving
and usage of plants for third world countries in collaboration with Dutch
and British aid agencies.

RECOGNITION OF OUR WORK

Seed Savers positive approach to the community conservation of plants has
attracted significant on-going media attention not only in Australia but
also in USA, France, Holland, South Africa and other places where Founding
Directors, Michel and Jude Fanton, have represented Seed Savers.

TV
A Big Country 1987
Country Wide 1988
Hinch at Seven 1990
Channel Seven Regional News 1991
Gardening Australia 1992
A Current Affair 1993
TF1 (France) current affairs 1993
News on RFO (Tahiti) 1993
The Today Show 1994
Burke's Backyard 1994
Totally Wild 1995
Link TV 1995
Gardening Australia  1996

RADIO
Australia:
Contributions to on-air panels of experts on national and state-wide radio
programmes.
Regular morning programme for twelve months on food and gardens (1994) and
regular interviews on state wide ABC programme on Permaculture (1994).
In depth interviews with Terry Lane (national ABC) and Andrew Ollie
(national ABC).
Guest appearances on talkback gardening shows with Jon Lamb (Adelaide ABC),
Shirley Stackhouse (Sydney commercial), Sandra and Graham Ross (Sydney
commercial), Colin Campbell (Brisbane ABC) and Lucy Broad (country NSW
ABC).
Interviewed on Green and Practical and other ABC environmental programmes.
Telephone interviews with numerous country radio stations in all states of
Australia.
Local FM stations.
Overseas:
Several items on Radio Australia's "One World" and other programmes, in
French and English, with translation into several Pacific languages
broadcast across the Pacific 95 - 97
Radio Happy Isles Solomon Islands 96
Radio Tonga 96
Several Cuban programmes in Havana 96
In the UK: The BBC Food Programme with Derek Cooper, agricultural programme
on Radio 4 - 96.

MAGAZINES
Articles on Seed Savers have appeared in the following magazines and journals:
Australia:
Grass Roots (8 items) and regular articles 86 - 96
Earth Garden (numerous articles) 88 - 96
Simply Living (3 items)
Going Organic 86
Agricultural Readers Digest, 88
Green Leaf Garden Series 88
Time Magazine Australia 11/88
Lifestyle Gardening Series 89
Australian Organic News 89
Work Matters 89
Organic Growing several articles 86 - 89
Complete Gardener Buying Guide 91
Homegrown 92
Countryman
Women's Weekly (2 items, 10/93 and 6/96)
Women's Day 93, 96
Who Weekly 10/5/93
Australian Senior Citizen 93
New Idea, 94
Your Garden 85 &10/95
Gardening Australia magazines (3 items, 93, 94, 95)
The Australian Gardener (several items) 87/93
The Gourmet Traveller 1/94
Inflight magazines 94
The Australian Post, 12/8/95
Overseas:
Les Quatre Saisons du Jardinage (France) 89
Nature et Progres (France) 91
De Kleine Aarde (Holland) 91
Odyssey (South Africa) 7/92
The Furrow (USA) Issue 2, 93
Rustica (France) 94
The Avant Gardener (USA) 94
Growing Today (New Zealand) 94
Pacific Island News (Fiji) 95
Geneflow, FAO of United Nation Rome (Italy) 96
Common Path of the Commonwealth Foundation, (UK) 96
South Pacific Agricultural News of the Institute for Research, Education
and Training in Agriculture (monthly contributions) 96 - 97
Pacific Islands Forest and Trees (FAO and UNDP) Dec 96
Regular column in the Permaculture International Journal 95 - 97

DAILY AND WEEKLY NEWSPAPERS
Australia:
The Sydney Morning Herald (4 items) in Good Living Magazine, & Employment
Section,
The Sun Herald,
The Daily Telegraph Mirror,
The Australian (5 items) and its Weekend Australian Easter 93, and the
Weekend Review,
The Sunday Age,
The Adelaide Advertiser,
The Western Australian 2/10/95,
The Hobart Mercury
The Canberra Times (3 items),
Sunday Sun,
Courier Mail in its Monitor section and its Sunday Mail (two items) 19/2/89
& 95,
The Land 10/96
The local Northern Star (numerous articles over the years)
Acropolis Australian Greek newspaper



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Internships in Permaculture

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have created openings for two interns at our
newly-acquired facilities in central Florida.  We seek people with vision,
self-motivation, and balanced senses of adventure and boundaries.  Work will
include both office work for our publishing and teaching activities and
outdoor work as we create a permaculture design for our own place.  Specific
tasks will be balanced between routine work and projects for which the intern
takes primary responsibility. Duration of programs is negotiable though we
prefer a potential period of one year or more. With enough time, interns can
develop profit-sharing enterprises using our resource base.

Arrangements can be made for suitable interns to reside on site as our
guests.  There will be the opportunity for each intern to develop a personal
garden area, if s/he desires, to manage in any way consistent with ecological
responsibility and organic practices.  Simple vegetarian basics and cooking
facilities can be provided. (Meat eaters are welcome--we just don't want to
pay for it.  There may be surplus fish and game.)
Tobacco smokers will not be considered because of plant diseases carried on
tobacco and its smoke.  No drugs or illegal substances of any kind are
acceptable here.

There is also opportunity for select Permaculture Design Course graduates to
fill these slots as apprentices in our APT (Advanced Permaculture Training)
program.

For details, send a concise statement to us directly at the email or U.S.
mail address below.  Hardcopy inquiries should be typed and confined to one
page. Please confine email to about 500 words.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.
 

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 18 22:40:02 1997
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From: jack rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
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Subject: re: Bermuda grass
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Bermuda grass and Johnson grass... hmmm... don't you just love those range
scientists? 

For those so lucky as not to be acquainted with Bermuda grass, it is a
stoloniferous grass which spreads via its very-tough stolons on several
levels, from right at the surface to 8 or more inches below the surface. It
is very difficult to remove all the stolons from all the levels, even by
digging and sifting the soil. One stolon internode will happily propagate a
new plant. NEVER till Bermuda grass! Bermuda grass spreads rapidly both
below ground with it's stolons, and by above-ground stems which can grow a
couple feet in a month easily, jumping low barriers (buried sheet metal,
etc.) and quickly rooting along the stem at internodal joints. Incredible
stuff, drought and heat-resistant as can be...

I've had the best luck keeping Bermuda grass out of uninfected beds with
the buried sheet metal trick, but the beds must be watched and above-ground
spreading stems removed regularly. I haven't found any way to deal with
Bermuda grass which doesn't involve ongoing vigilance... Digging sprigs as
soon as they are seen, and digging them all the way down, helps keep total
work down a LOT in the long run.

For preparing new beds in Bermuda grass, the cardboard and compost trick
(scalping grassed areas and covering with overlapped cardboard and compost
or soil) actually works very well in early spring IF the cardboard is
well-lapped, wetted before spreading soil (to keep soil from getting
between the laps), AND if the edges are protected (sheet metal, etc...)
from new invasion. Some grass will usually survive and need digging...
waiting too long to dig surviving grass is a mistake, as it reestablishes
quickly and deeply.

I have found a good winter crop of Ryegrass to be pretty effective at
drowning Bermuda grass in areas where winter freezes kill Bermuda grass
back to the goround if the Ryegrass is left to grow from mid-winter onward.
By the time weather warms and the Bermuda grass wants to start growing, the
Ryegrass will be thick and tall and the Bermuda grass attempting to sprout
will languish, as it likes full sun. This often needs repeating. Forage
Sorghums (Sudangrass, Redtop, etc.) can do some smothering in the summer if
the Ryegrass has knocked the Bermuda grass back somewhat already. 

Ticks (like grasshoppers) are discouraged by mown grass, and dogs get a bit
of relief from ticks and fleas by having good doses of raw garlic and/or
brewer's yeast slowly introduced into their diets (not cheap, but does
actually work pretty well, though of course not perfectly). Probably not
much of any way to actually get rid of them, especially in tall grass or
woods. 

Ticks, fleas, Bermuda grass, nutgrass, IRS, mosquitoes... what fun would
life be without these little reminders that chaos is ever watching over our
shoulders, waiting...eh?

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 19 10:44:43 1997
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
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        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:  re: Bermuda grass
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In a message dated 3/18/97 10:35:44 PM, jackrowe@compuserve.com (jack rowe)
wrote:

>For preparing new beds in Bermuda grass, the cardboard and compost trick
>(scalping grassed areas and covering with overlapped cardboard and compost
>or soil) actually works very well in early spring IF the cardboard is
>well-lapped, wetted before spreading soil (to keep soil from getting
>between the laps), AND if the edges are protected (sheet metal, etc...)
>from new invasion. Some grass will usually survive and need digging...
>waiting too long to dig surviving grass is a mistake, as it reestablishes
>quickly and deeply.<<

REPLY:  It is unnecessary to "scalp" herbaceous vegetation before sheet
mulching.  In my opinion, leaving the grasses uncut, or other weeds, and just
flattening them and mulching over them weakens the plant much more.  I've no
scientific research to back me up, only 30 years experience in sheet
mulching.

Pigs will eradicate Bermuda grass and covert the solons to pork.  Chickens
eat it and will destroy it eventually if stocked at a rate in excess of 70
birds per acre -- probably more like 100 birds, and left on the area for a
few years.  Deep mulch in the poultry forage helps discourage the grass while
culturing invertebrates that contribute a lot to the nutrition of the birds.
 By developing pie-shaped yards around a poultry house, all weeds can be
eliminated from an area and then it can be planted.  This can be an
agroforestry, of course, birds and trees sort of work together you know, and
you eventually you will have a really productive oasis.  Planting comfrey
about 6 or 8 inches around the perimeter of the exterior fencing will provide
some green forage for the birds and eventually help to form a barrier to
invasion by stolons.  If the bermuda grass gets ahead of the poultry in one
of your pie areas, toss in a few piglets.  It is easy to confine pigs with
poultry netting if you run two lines of electric fence around the inside of
the fence.  The poultry netting slows down the pigs and grouds them rather
nicely while the electric shock provides ample discouragement.  Pigs despise
electric fence and a 10 foot wall of concrete could not be more effective.
 The height of your electric depends, of course on the size of your pigs.
 Use common sense.

One more tip:  geese also like stolons and to a lesser extent, so do ducks.
 If you must plow, and avoid it if you have the discipline, they will go
through and pick out all the stolons, nut grass bulbs, etc.  Chickens can be
added for larger ants and termites, and both ducks and chickens control
grubs.

Basically, if you can afford the poultry netting, or come up with something
similar such as woven fence with living fenceposts and split bamboo, you can
turn the bermuda grass into an excuse for a very productive little area so
that you can graze the rest.  

Now if someone can tell me how to control bermuda grass when it goes aquatic
it will be a fair swap.  In one pond that we have, it holds its own against
water hyacinth(1) and in our canal is as serious a blockage as willow.  I'm
betting on Asian water buffalo, but as they swim underwater they could be
difficult to confine in places.  any ideas?

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From askpv@ozemail.com.au  Tue Mar 25 18:42:03 1997
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Message-ID: <01BC39D2.5D6EF740@slwol2p61.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'prmclt mailing list Aust'" <perma@eepo.com.au>,
        "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'permanet@sunsite.unc.edu'" <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>,
        "'steved@ncatark.uark.edu'" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Subject: RE: Ozark Challenges
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:08:02 +-1100
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STEVE< how are you?
haven''t you guys heard of the new technology, heaps better than 
poisons?
I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost solutions.
Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this technology
so I advise you to seek them, I have an email somewhere for those interested.

The technology is simple, they use SUPER CIRTICAL hot water and it
kills all vegetation without poisons, and leaves a flattened mat of fibre in which
you plant the next day!!
it can even kill woody weeds - up to a certain thickness so is good for spot weeding around
established trees. it can also be very selective - used to mark lines in lawns for tennis etc.
If I had the time and interest I would start up a frachise myself. as It such wonderful potential -
as it goes I haven't got the time and apart from doing my own site - i haven't got the sales
skills.

lets try everything else  before the easiest most conventional way.
April



----------
From: 	Steve Diver[SMTP:steved@ncatark.uark.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 25 March 1997 22:16
To: 	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	Re: Ozark Challenges

Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant





From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 25 19:09:29 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:08:02 +-1100
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'prmclt mailing list Aust'" <perma@eepo.com.au>,
        "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'permanet@sunsite.unc.edu'" <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>,
        "'steved@ncatark.uark.edu'" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Subject: RE: Ozark Challenges
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X-Status: 

STEVE< how are you?
haven''t you guys heard of the new technology, heaps better than 
poisons?
I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost solutions.
Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this technology
so I advise you to seek them, I have an email somewhere for those interested.

The technology is simple, they use SUPER CIRTICAL hot water and it
kills all vegetation without poisons, and leaves a flattened mat of fibre in which
you plant the next day!!
it can even kill woody weeds - up to a certain thickness so is good for spot weeding around
established trees. it can also be very selective - used to mark lines in lawns for tennis etc.
If I had the time and interest I would start up a frachise myself. as It such wonderful potential -
as it goes I haven't got the time and apart from doing my own site - i haven't got the sales
skills.

lets try everything else  before the easiest most conventional way.
April



----------
From: 	Steve Diver[SMTP:steved@ncatark.uark.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 25 March 1997 22:16
To: 	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	Re: Ozark Challenges

Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant





From YankeePerm@aol.com  Wed Mar 26 10:06:36 1997
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 10:05:02 -0500 (EST)
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To: askpv@ozemail.com.au, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, perma@eepo.com.au,
        permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        steved@ncatark.uark.edu
Subject: Re: RE: Ozark Challenges
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 3/26/97 9:48:36 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April
Sampson-Kelly) wrote:

>I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost
solutions.
>Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this
technology
>so I advise you to seek them,
,,<<

Technology cannot be copyrighted.  It can only be patented.  Lots of people
in Florida use boiling water to kill fire ants and weeds.  We also use
ammonia for both.  Oviously, this is spot treatment not broacscale for
invasive grasses.

The natural way to kill solonaceous grasses is to fence the area to pigs.
 They will eat all the stolons.  In permaculture, we use the least technology
to do the job, no.  

In the states, we can rent, or presumably buy, propane steam generators which
would serve the function that April describes.  We also have, in blueberry
country, motorized flame throwers that weed by burning off surface
vegetation.  Blueberries get off on this and it keeps them producing.  I'm
describing the procumbant, lowbush groundcover type blueberry, of course,
though highbush varieties recover quickly from burning, quicker than most
competition also.  However this eats a lot of organic matter and the areas
where this is practiced are degraded.  Since blueberries are much more
tolerant of degraded soil than of competition, it works for them but at the
expense of the soil.  

Pigs are less intense energy sources, and get some of their energy from the
rhizomes they are to destroy. They are also self-replicating and can be eaten
when they have finished withthe job.  They have many other potential
functions ina  permaculture design Other approaches need to improve on pigs
in these regards or they are not the minimum change (energy) for the most
benefit, one of our over-riding criteria.    Such approaches might include
teaming up pigs with other animals.  They will not eat chickens that they
have know from piglethood, for example, though they will eat strange chickens
even in the presence of their piglethood poultry friends.  I imagine a food
shortage could void that generalization but mistreating animals, as with
inadequate feed and forage, is not part of permaculture either.  So it isn't
an issue.

I'm sure that a tactical nuclear weapon will also erradicate stolonaceous
grasses.  Lets just get back to permaculture, guys.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 26 10:14:42 1997
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        permaculture@envirolink.org, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        steved@ncatark.uark.edu
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In a message dated 3/26/97 9:48:36 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April
Sampson-Kelly) wrote:

>I didn't mention it cause I thought we were looking at simple low cost
solutions.
>Wiapuna In NZ have fought hard for their international copyright on this
technology
>so I advise you to seek them,
,,<<

Technology cannot be copyrighted.  It can only be patented.  Lots of people
in Florida use boiling water to kill fire ants and weeds.  We also use
ammonia for both.  Oviously, this is spot treatment not broacscale for
invasive grasses.

The natural way to kill solonaceous grasses is to fence the area to pigs.
 They will eat all the stolons.  In permaculture, we use the least technology
to do the job, no.  

In the states, we can rent, or presumably buy, propane steam generators which
would serve the function that April describes.  We also have, in blueberry
country, motorized flame throwers that weed by burning off surface
vegetation.  Blueberries get off on this and it keeps them producing.  I'm
describing the procumbant, lowbush groundcover type blueberry, of course,
though highbush varieties recover quickly from burning, quicker than most
competition also.  However this eats a lot of organic matter and the areas
where this is practiced are degraded.  Since blueberries are much more
tolerant of degraded soil than of competition, it works for them but at the
expense of the soil.  

Pigs are less intense energy sources, and get some of their energy from the
rhizomes they are to destroy. They are also self-replicating and can be eaten
when they have finished withthe job.  They have many other potential
functions ina  permaculture design Other approaches need to improve on pigs
in these regards or they are not the minimum change (energy) for the most
benefit, one of our over-riding criteria.    Such approaches might include
teaming up pigs with other animals.  They will not eat chickens that they
have know from piglethood, for example, though they will eat strange chickens
even in the presence of their piglethood poultry friends.  I imagine a food
shortage could void that generalization but mistreating animals, as with
inadequate feed and forage, is not part of permaculture either.  So it isn't
an issue.

I'm sure that a tactical nuclear weapon will also erradicate stolonaceous
grasses.  Lets just get back to permaculture, guys.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Mar 29 13:29:14 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change 
In-Reply-To: <199703061729.KAA27266@csf.Colorado.EDU>
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>>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:12:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "M. Mattox" <mmattox@u.washington.edu>
Subject: diversity v monoculture and climate change
>>	
I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
appreciate the input. 
I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
studies would be helpful.
As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
Thanks, Megan
>>

> From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
> You might try:
> 
> Scoones, I., et al., 1996, 
> Hazards and Opportunities: Farming Livelihoods in Dryland
>    Africa - Lessons from Zimbabwe, 
> London and New Jersey: Zed Books 
> 
> It goes into detail about the different ways in which
> rural people in Zimbabwe coped with the disastrous droughts
> in 1991 and '92.  (By "systems" I'm hoping you mean human
> communities, too.)
> 
> Michael
> yount@csf.colorado.edu


Also appropriate might be the book:

"Food From Dryland Gardens"

An Ecological, Nutritional & Social Approach 
to Small-Scale Household Food Production

by: David Cleveland and Daniela Soleri
    Illustrated by Daniela Soleri
    Center For People, Food, and the Environment, CFPE
    344 South Third Avenue
    Tuscon, Arizona, 85701, USA
    with support from the
    United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF

Copyright 1991



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr  2 14:39:24 1997
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From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Sustainability and development
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Hi there,

I am in contact with the australian organization BODHI who is looking forward to
support sustainable ways to improve health, education and the environment,
 particularly in developing countries.

See page: <http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/bodhi.html>

I was thinking about how it may be possible to bringt together the power of
this development organization with the permaculture-principles. One of the
directors, Dr.Colin Butler knows about PC and met Bill Mollison .

He says:

>However, I agree the theory of permaculture is good.
>
>I think BODHI would support permaculture if a local community wanted
>to use these principles and we had the resources to do so but so far
>we haven't done much along these lines.

Maybe someone likes to jump in with some ideas?


Dr. Colin Butler: <mailto:csbutler@peg.apc.org>
(Alternative address: <mailto:colin.butler@lshtm.ac.uk> )

Thank you for any support!


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr  3 06:30:33 1997
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Greetings Thilo Pfennig:
	Thanks for your note to the permaculture mailing group. One way to start
would be for you to develop a list of active permaculture teachrs and
consultants and the areas in which they work.  Then, when opportunities for
collaboration come up, you have a resource base.  I imagine that on request
to this group you could generate a useful list of names.  In my view,
permaculture is best introduced as training to the local people who have
indicated that they want such training.  Then permaculturists can be
available for support to a local group that develops its own designs.  We
have designed a three-year program of teaching and support for such
situations.  
	Permaculture design principles can be used to design such an approach.  Once
all the responses to your post are in, such a design process can begin.  
	It is very good to hear of this potential marriage.
For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

In a message dated 4/2/97 2:35:30 PM, Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo
Pfennig) wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>I am in contact with the australian organization BODHI who is looking
forward to
>support sustainable ways to improve health, education and the environment,
> particularly in developing countries.
>
>See page: <http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/bodhi.html>
>
>I was thinking about how it may be possible to bringt together the power of
>this development organization with the permaculture-principles. One of the
>directors, Dr.Colin Butler knows about PC and met Bill Mollison .
>
>He says:
>
>>However, I agree the theory of permaculture is good.
>>
>>I think BODHI would support permaculture if a local community wanted
>>to use these principles and we had the resources to do so but so far
>>we haven't done much along these lines.
>
>Maybe someone likes to jump in with some ideas?
>
>
>Dr. Colin Butler: <mailto:csbutler@peg.apc.org>
>(Alternative address: <mailto:colin.butler@lshtm.ac.uk> )
>
>Thank you for any support!

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr  4 23:03:34 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Dee Dee wrote:
> 
> A mailing list to discuss permaculture and related topics is
> now available.
> 
> To subscribe to the list send email to
> permaculture-request@GlobalGarden.com with the body of the message
> containing:
> 
>     subscribe
> 
> To subscribe to the digest version of the list, send the above message
> to permaculture-digest-request@GlobalGarden.com
> 
> --
> 
> Dee Dee
> dd@sgi.com

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr  8 12:34:39 1997
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        cohousing-l@freedom.mtn.org
Subject: Last Billboard: Permaculture Workshop
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Ozark CoHousing in Fayetteville, Arkansas is sponsoring an affordable
permaculture workshop the evening of May 9 through May 11.  The cost is $95.

Presenter Patricia Michael is a social and environmental activist, designer,
lecturer and educator who studied permaculture with Bill Mollison in
Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Central America and the U.S.  A
Vice-Chancellor of the International Permaculture Academy at Tyalgum,
Australia, Ms. Michael emphasizes ecological designs that maximize the
potential of both humans and nature.

What will you get out of the workshop?  
--A basic understanding of permaculture.  
--Design tools and ways to apply them to your home and farm.  
--The ability to analyze a site for best use of natural resources, buildings
and energy.
--Slides and stories of permaculture from around the world; 
--Site analysis for a planned botanical garden; and 
--A fun, hands-on experience with other cool people!

For more information, contact Karen McSpadden at kmcs@aol.com

From adamt@peg.apc.org  Wed Apr  9 16:42:16 1997
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From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT)
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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

Filename: c:\user\adamt\cuba\voluntee.r\orientat.ion\HAVAD01.DOC	


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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

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From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT)
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The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

Filename: c:\user\adamt\cuba\voluntee.r\orientat.ion\HAVAD01.DOC	


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 12:11:15 1997
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From: ecoeco@caribe.net (egidio reale)
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I would like to subscribe to this list, could you please tell me how to go
about it?
Thank you very much,
Egidio Reale


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 13:16:38 1997
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>Visit our new Permaculture Primer Web Site at this wonderfully easy to
>remember address:

Are you shure about that? ;)

>http://hueylong.cadgis.lsu.edu/lhin/visitor/html/primer/

Looks like ROT-13. ;)

--
<http://kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/>


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 15 14:52:01 1997
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To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture these days..
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What permaculture offers us is a way to bring back the ways of the
hunters/gatherers. A way of life that potentially restores a balance to
humanity.  A way where the holy dollar is not as holy as the fruit and nuts
we gather from our trees. A way that restores the sanity of humanity by
creating plenty that restores our faith in prosperity.  lack=fear
plenty=faith. Restoring our faith, restores sanity..faith in the provision
of the trees, the roots, the grasses, the herbs and the flowers to give us
food and sustain us.

So this is the season where we place into the earth, roots of shrubs and
trees and berries and we plant our grasses and herbs and we bring to our
homes the birds that live with us, and our children will remember the trees
we planted and come there often to eat of them and they will be thankful to
us to have a haven we have created for them. And their children will
remember that it was the elders that planted these trees and fruits that
sustain them and they will feel the abundance we intended for them and they
will remember the heritage we give them in the planting. 

It's the only thing I want to do. It is the only thing that matters to me
these days.  It's about taking on the reponsibility for our children
everywhere and through time. And for the hope of our civilization.

Highly recommended*** by Daniel Quinn: "Ishmael" and " The Story of B"..They
were a 'click' for me..

Hope you're all enjoying the Spring! Be very careful of your backs! We need
them!
Vinca

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr 16 12:59:50 1997
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From: xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: northern climate
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Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier

PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
bermuda grass!



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 17 07:51:08 1997
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In a message dated 4/17/97 3:32:17 AM, xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire) wrote:

>Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?
>
>that is 60 degrees north,
>short summers with long days
>cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
>I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
>and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.
>
>I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.
>
>yours
>
>Xavier
>
>PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
>So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
>bermuda grass!

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 17 21:26:16 1997
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'permaculture@envirolink.org'" <permaculture@envirolink.org>,
        "'xavierd@sn.no'" <xavierd@sn.no>
Subject: RE: northern climate
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I remember Norway fondly, and have a friend in Sweden who
is into native foods.
I think one should always look at native vegetation - it's traditional
uses as building, weaving, clothing material, as well as food.
As to the topics that are bantered about, with enough interest 
the group speaks about nearly anything.
Quite obviously, when we look at bio-diversity and diversity is a BIG
part of our sustainability in food supplies and of course permaculture
design, we find that in nature there is greater diversity near the tropics.
But people need food where they are, and if people are indeed
cold or hungry then permaculture will be practiced and talked about there.
I have seen topics related to your neighbouring countries like Finland
on Aquaculture (Polyculture).
But on the whole, 
most people must be pretty comfortable with the way things are,
In Australia it is our concern for the environment rather than hunger or cold
that stimulates action.
April

----------
From: 	Xavier Dequaire[SMTP:xavierd@sn.no]
Sent: 	Thursday, 17 April 1997 2:55
To: 	permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: 	northern climate

Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier

PS. what are those favas? Are they kinds of beans?
So far the debate though exotic is quite remote to my preoccupations, and
bermuda grass!






From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 03:55:58 1997
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From: xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: RE: northern climate
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>In Australia it is our concern for the environment rather than hunger or cold
>that stimulates action.

There is a big concern for environment here too.

The north sea provides oil and gas, this makes Norway a very very rich country,
and pressure on environment gets higher though consumption habits, road
construction and industrial wastage.

The climate implies high energy consuming, because everything is though
through the consumption model: e.g. people eat tomatoes and cucumbers all
year round though they would hardly grow in the summer on freeland, except
in microclimates.
the tomatoes are grown in energy/chemicals intensive greenhouses i Holland,
and Norway in the summer, and they do not taste anything...

That's where permaculture design gives inspiration to alternative and
integrated food production and energy saving solutions, and it works.
There is luckylly very little diseases because of the cold climate.

Peace,

Xavier


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 09:35:14 1997
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In a message dated 4/18/97 3:59:15 AM, xavierd@sn.no (Xavier Dequaire) wrote:

>There is a big concern for environment here too.
>
>The north sea provides oil and gas, this makes Norway a very very rich
country,
>and pressure on environment gets higher though consumption habits, road
>construction and industrial wastage.
>
>The climate implies high energy consuming, because everything is though
>through the consumption model: e.g. people eat tomatoes and cucumbers all
>year round though they would hardly grow in the summer on freeland, except
>in microclimates.
>the tomatoes are grown in energy/chemicals intensive greenhouses i Holland,
>and Norway in the summer, and they do not taste anything...
>
>That's where permaculture design gives inspiration to alternative and
>integrated food production and energy saving solutions, and it works.
>There is luckylly very little diseases because of the cold climate.
>
>Peace,
>
>Xavier

A major environmental issue for Scandanavia, including Xavier's region, that
I don't read much about is the inevitable shift of the Gulf Stream.  Whether
the official scientific line is right and we are getting a "Global Warming"
or whether adocates of John Hamaker's line are correct, and "Global Warming"
puts energy into a refrigeration mechanism, brining on the next (overdue
anyway) Ice Age, the temperature differences between tropical sources of the
Gulf Stream and the arctic climes where it finally veers southward again will
shift.  The temperature difference is a difference drives river within the
ocean, which otherwise would be content to sit where it finds itself.
 Increase the temperature difference and the river runs faster.  Decrease it,
the river runs slower.  

A small change in average thermal difference between the tropics and the
arctic waters means a huge difference in momentum.  Remember your secondary
school physics:  F=MV(squared)  Any increase in the velocity of the stream is
squared and then multiplied by that imponderable mass of water to give the
change in momentum.  Obviously, momentum affects the location and arc of the
turning of the Gulf Stream from a northerly flow to a southerly flow.
 Probably absolute temperatures are important in determining the exact place
where the turn begins. 



The fragmentary information that I have indicates that the gulf stream has
been warmer as it passes Scandanavia, causing glaciers to melt.  The lighter
fresh water, also very cold, floats and the warmer salty water is submerged
so that points south, for example in the region of Normandy, experience much
cooler weather.  There are probably other complexities that no one has
noticed yet, and probably some that they have but that I don't know about.

The point here is that ANY region that depends on large scale ocean
convection currents for its climate, currents such as the Gulf Stream and the
Japan Current, will be in for weather which they probably cannot anticipate.
 For example, a small shift in the arc of the Gulf stream early on could be a
reall boon for Greenland and a curse of death for the Celtic Isles (UK and
Eire) and Scandanavia and a drastic problem for western Europe.  The effects
of a shift in the Japan current would likely kill fewer people, but the North
American Pacific Northwest might find that its population emigrates on a
large scale.  Maybe April knows better the currents in the Southern
Hemisphere.  Given reports that the Antarctic is getting even colder than
usual in winter, with depletion of upper atmpsphere ozone implicated, there
is no doubt reason for similar concern there.  The temperature differential
is probably changing to a larger degree in the SH!

2)  High (meaning big numbers) latitudes, North and South, need to be
concerned about ozone depletion as it permits increased UV radiation.  That
we are unable to anticipat the effects is little cause for comfort.  Ozone
depletion is in my view by a large measure the most serious ecological
concern on planet Earth and we are not really taking it seriously enough.
 The fact that the high latitudes get fried first is little comfort to the
rest of us, as the main photosynthetic engines of the planet may be affected.
 Major shifts in the chemical composition of the atmosphere, for example, may
not be permanent, but they might be enough to snuf the candle of our species,
among others.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 13:18:33 1997
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Subject: Re: northern climate
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My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 

Comments from down under?

MIlo Clark
Berkeley CA USA



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 18 17:09:18 1997
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From: Rhys Howitt <rhys@macquarie.matra.com.au>
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Milo wrote:
>My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
>without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
>me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 
>
>Comments from down under?
>
That's my subjective assessment too.  The weather bureau publishes daily 'UV
ratings' and these seem to go up and up on average, though I haven't done a
full study of it.

In the primary schools now, children are not allowed to go outside to play
without a hat.  When ours do, they get promptly crisped (true, they do have
fair skin and obviously little prior exposure!).  I too have been surprised
at getting sunburn in quite brief exposures.  Some days are worse than others.

Rhys Howitt
Crossroads Medieval Village Co-operative
Yass, Australia

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Apr 19 07:48:21 1997
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Subject: Re: northern climate
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In a message dated 4/18/97 1:17:23 PM, Milogic@aol.com wrote:

>My friends in New Zealand are amazed that we can still spend hours outside
>without being heavily layered with sunblocks and covered up tight. They tell
>me that much more than half an hour leaves them pretty fried otherwise. 
>
>Comments from down under?
>
>MIlo Clark
>Berkeley CA USA

When visiting ther from here in up/over in 1987, I learned that skin cancer
was already 100 X normal in the southernmost portions of the country. 

Serious as this is to people who get it, it is not the main ecological
problem associated with increased UV penetration of the atmosphere.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Apr 20 01:40:29 1997
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From: Harald Wolf <allegra@islandnet.com>
To: "'Xavier Dequaire'" <xavierd@sn.no>,
        "permaculture@envirolink.org"
	 <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: RE: northern climate
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Dear Xavier Dequaire,

Your E-mail of 17APR re northern climate was forwarded to me by a friend.

In case it is of interest, note a book written by me, published last year,
entitled "Bare Poles: Building design for high latitudes".

You can see something on this at my web site:

http://www.magic.ca/~strub/index.html

>From there you will see a link ("Carleton University Press") to the book at
the publisher's web site for more information on the book and how to order it.

Best wishes,

Harold Strub


----------
From:  Xavier Dequaire[SMTP:xavierd@sn.no]
Sent:  April 16, 1997 09:56 AM
To:  permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:  northern climate

Any body with experience in design for nordic countries?

that is 60 degrees north,
short summers with long days
cold and dark winters with several month with frozen grounds,
I am in first place interested in plants as the vegetation is concerned
and energy solutions as the buildings are concerned.

I am in Norway, next to the fjord of Oslo.

yours

Xavier



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Apr 20 09:28:01 1997
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I have privately received a request to expand on my remark that human cancer
is not the most serious ecological problem from increased penetration of UV
into the atmosphere. (Not that skin cancer is at all less than a horrible
fate.) I must be brief this morning:

1)  There is evidence that ozone depletion and the resulting increase in UV
penetration have increased the severity of winters over Antarctica.  This is
well described in an article by John Gribben:  Climate & Ozone:  The
Stratospheric Link.  It was first published in Pacific World (New Zealand)
and then reprinted with permission in our publication, The International
Permaculture Solutions Journal.  In our reprint, we also included extensive
commentary by myself.  That is in Vol. I, No. 3, nominally the soils issue,
but as usual in our journals we published some articles on other themes that
we did not want to delay getting out.  Email me privately for subscription
info.  Pacific Institute of Resource Management, who publish Pacific World,
are out of Wellington--they have changed their address very recently and I
don't think I've entered the updated address in our TRIP (The Resources of
Internatoinal Permaculture) database yet.  If you really want the publication
fromt hat resource and have sincerely tried to get in touch with them, then
email me and I'll sort through the pending work heap (nay, mountain) to
locate PW and the new address.  (If you email me with this request tommorow,
I'll know you haven't tried very hard and ignore you.)

2)  UV is the most energetic form of light.  Mostly, the stuff in the
universe acquires added energy by moving faster.  However, it appears that
the speed of light is a limit on how fast stuff can move.  So light acquires
more energy by moving MORE INSTEAD OF FASTER.  It vibrates between positive
and negative polarity more often per second or per foot(meter)--same thing at
the speed of light--so you could say it is vibrating faster, though it isn't
going faster.  This greater frequency of vibration gives it more energy.
 Light that cannot be seen, that vibrates more frequently than visible light,
is called ultra violet because the higest frequency visible light is
"violet."  (Light really doesn't have color--that is a psychological
phenomenon--and too far afield to get into)  When graphed for frequency,
ultra violet is right next to violet, hencethe name.
	Now it is the added energy, to simplify things a bit, that gives you a
sunburn, skin cancer.  UV also kills more directly.  It is used in some water
purification systems to kill small organisms--zaps 'em.   
	It happens that the great engines for plankton production on Earth are at
the very high latitudes, Antarctic and Arctic.  Here's a genuine edge effect
at work.  Mechanims are probably several and they probably amplify one
another.  First, there is the intrusion of fresh water over salt.  This
always seems to stimulate aquatic life, thoough I've not been able to figure
out the specific mechanisms. Second, since this is often glacial melt-off,
there is the remineralized rock dust that could stimulate life.  While this
may play a role, remember that the oceans are already mineral sinks and the
remineralization fanatics may have latched onto a fals example here.  In any
event, we get tremendous crops of plankton--enough to attract plankton
feeding organisms such as krill and whles in what seems to us an univiting
environment.

	Now we are creating the great water stilizer effect at the poles, zaping the
organisms in water with UV.  These plankton engines are phenomenally
important to global ecology, probably in ways we won't understand fully until
they fail and we see the environment unravel at unprecedented speed.  How
interesting! well gasp.  Much of Gaia is plankton and we are messing way
beyond our reach to repair when we fry that part of her.  

3)  The greenhouse effect, whether it ultimately results in "Global Warming"
or whether it triggers glaciation (someone else can explain this one), is
probably right up there as a major concern to people, though not of as much co
ncern to Gaia who runs these little fevers and, pardon the expresssion,
weathers them nicely.  Since UV is the most energetic amount of light,
admitting more UV to our part of the atmosphere lets in a lot more energy
than if it were merely additional brightness.  Moreover, we have contaminated
the atmosphere with much increased proportions of gasses and particles that
absorb radiation and hold it close to the surface longer.  Either we will get
glaciers faster or global warming, or, as I suspect, we will melt the ice
caps so fast that before the ice age mechanisms come to play we get
precession and then an ice age.  Now the fact that MAYBE we can have large
rises in sea level (in which case glub glub for me in Florida), then a
flip-flop of the earth with universal earthquakes and mile high tidal waves,
and then an ice age, that should be enough to make us a little more careful
about dumping our shit into the atmosphere, no?  We don't want to know if
this really will happen.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Apr 23 20:03:45 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Global Warming/the Gulf Stream
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Hi Dan and everyone on the list,

(Dan wrote a very interesting piece on the changes to the Gulf Stream and
its effects on Scandanavia.)

There is a school of thought that subscribes to the theory that the Gulf
Stream is shifting. It would seem very possible to me as our planetary
weather patterns are being distrupted by Global Warming. I do not have a
reference to the scientific research but could find out more if you like.

On a personal level, we have had a six week drought here which is highly
unusual. Usually it is 'March winds and April showers'. There has been none
of either and my plants are wilting in the ground, despite mulch and other
moisture preserving techniques. The blossom is abundant and beautiful on
the fruit and nut trees as a consequence and as long as we don't get very
hard frosts it will be a good year for fruit (if we can water). We are
currently installing a 1400 gallon rainwater harvesting system to drip
irrigate the shrubs and trees. We had to get planning permission for it
from the local authority who had no precedent on such a system. Inevitably
the bureaucracy cost us money.

Drought is an increasing problem here, as is erosion of the land by the
rising sea. What I would like to gather now is a series of statistics about
climate change, soil erosion, environmental degredation etc. which clearly
spells out our crisis as I do not think most people in Britain believe it.
They have only just accepted that Global Warming may just be a reality and
some people think it might be good because it will get warmer in Britain
and we'll end up with a Mediterrean climate! They are barking mad. So if
anyone on the list has some statistics re. the above (like every year an
area of top soil the size of the state of Kansas is lost on the Earth),
please could you email me with them and their source. They do have to be
sourced though, please.

Incidently, I get the impression from the northern climate debate that we
are all rather cosy in this temperate, northern climes. In fact, poverty is
an increasingly serious problem in Britain after so many years of
Conservative rule. Many members of our so-called affluent society are
developing diseases associated with malnutrition. People just can't afford
to eat fruit and veg.

The positive side of this is an increase in community gardens which teach
people how to grow food like Springhill Community Gardens in Bradford,
Yorkshire. As a nation, most of us do not have these skills (I certainly
didn't have a clue until a few years ago, nor the opportunity to learn) and
do not know where to start. Local government has begun to fund permaculture
based projects to help with this and release land. A big problem is the
stranglehold of private ownership on land and premium prices. Many
allotments and school grounds also are being sold off for development. I
really cannot emphasis enough the disasterous policies of our current
government (but have little faith in all the other politician too!). Let's
hope they don't get voted back in.

I hope isn't too long for you.

Best wishes to all,

Maddy

Maddy Harland, Editor
Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU, Britain.
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500. Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834.
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Apr 24 10:29:38 1997
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From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: permaculture@gn.apc.org, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Global Warming/the Gulf Stream
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In a message dated 4/23/97 8:01:45 PM, you wrote:

>Hi Dan and everyone on the list,
>
>(Dan wrote a very interesting piece on the changes to the Gulf Stream and
>its effects on Scandanavia.)
>
>There is a school of thought that subscribes to the theory that the Gulf
>Stream is shifting. It would seem very possible to me as our planetary
>weather patterns are being distrupted by Global Warming. I do not have a
>reference to the scientific research but could find out more if you like.
>
>On a personal level, we have had a six week drought here which is highly
>unusual. Usually it is 'March winds and April showers'. There has been none
>of either and my plants are wilting in the ground, despite mulch and other
>moisture preserving techniques. The blossom is abundant and beautiful on
>the fruit and nut trees as a consequence and as long as we don't get very
>hard frosts it will be a good year for fruit (if we can water). We are
>currently installing a 1400 gallon rainwater harvesting system to drip
>irrigate the shrubs and trees. We had to get planning permission for it
>from the local authority who had no precedent on such a system. Inevitably
>the bureaucracy cost us money.
>
>Drought is an increasing problem here, as is erosion of the land by the
>rising sea. What I would like to gather now is a series of statistics about
>climate change, soil erosion, environmental degredation etc. which clearly
>spells out our crisis as I do not think most people in Britain believe it.
>They have only just accepted that Global Warming may just be a reality and
>some people think it might be good because it will get warmer in Britain
>and we'll end up with a Mediterrean climate! They are barking mad. So if
>anyone on the list has some statistics re. the above (like every year an
>area of top soil the size of the state of Kansas is lost on the Earth),
>please could you email me with them and their source. They do have to be
>sourced though, please.
>
>Incidently, I get the impression from the northern climate debate that we
>are all rather cosy in this temperate, northern climes. In fact, poverty is
>an increasingly serious problem in Britain after so many years of
>Conservative rule. Many members of our so-called affluent society are
>developing diseases associated with malnutrition. People just can't afford
>to eat fruit and veg.
>
>The positive side of this is an increase in community gardens which teach
>people how to grow food like Springhill Community Gardens in Bradford,
>Yorkshire. As a nation, most of us do not have these skills (I certainly
>didn't have a clue until a few years ago, nor the opportunity to learn) and
>do not know where to start. Local government has begun to fund permaculture
>based projects to help with this and release land. A big problem is the
>stranglehold of private ownership on land and premium prices. Many
>allotments and school grounds also are being sold off for development. I
>really cannot emphasis enough the disasterous policies of our current
>government (but have little faith in all the other politician too!). Let's
>hope they don't get voted back in.
>
>I hope isn't too long for you.
>
>Best wishes to all,
>
>Maddy

Hi Maddy:

You seem awfully sane for someone with that name.

Our dear friend Joanna Campe publishes Remineralize the Earth journal which
was inspired by John Hamaker's work on glaciation and remineralization cycles
and is a good source of the info from that angle.  I'm a frequent contributor
so you know that it has to be good !  :-)  Her email address is
ReminEarth@aol.com

Don Weaver, who worked with Hamaker on his book SURVIVAL OF CIVILIZATION has
been monitoring reports of climate shift.  His address is in TIPSY #4, our
old permaculture yearbook, which you probably have. I'll see if I can run
down his email address, if any.  I haven't seen any of Dons packages for a
while but back issues would be very useful even if he has moved on to other
tasks.  

Joanna distributes Survival of Civilization, by the way, which is a good
statement of the greenhouse-leads-to-glaciers theory, though he is more than
a bit cranky about his efforts to gain the attention of the US congress, a
small organization to which he ascribes far more importance than they deserve
anyway.

Given the fact that in the UK you have infinitely better weather than you
should expect at your latitude, any climate shift means that you are screwed,
to put the matter delicately.  The idea that it can get better than it is
already is a fantasy only supportable by deliberate stupidity--genetic
stupidity doesn't suffice.  If we do get runaway global warming, how much of
your bit of rock will be above water?

If you folks in the rest of the world are yawning, remember that this country
is very, very well armed and traditionally has taken anything it wanted that
it could take.  Imagine their approach if they actually need your land and
food and fresh water.  You have a hybridization of Viking bloodthirstiness
and Roman beauracracy and expansionism in that little place and it has
greatly disturbed remote peoples before.  No one should be complacent.  Worse
will be if the country that issues MY passport decides it wants what you
have, because we have nutto people who will destroy something to own it, but
we have a bit more wiggle room (though an itchier trigger finger) than the
Brits.   In other words, if one or two or a dozen very well armed countries
get displaced, the whole world population suffers.  It won't be like
bangladesh where a flood comes in, wipes out a significant fraction of the
population, and that is the end of the matter.  Believe it.  I don't know how
we design against this, but we have to think about it.  We permaculturists
may be the best hope for putting nucleii in place that can survive and
prosper.  Probably we should concentrate in overcrowded places with too many
people and not enough food, as they will be least attractive to older white
guys in suits who like air conditioned buildings and three lavish meals
daily.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 29 00:00:20 1997
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From: ken@eastwind.org
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: cedar chips OK?
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	Hi there --

	Anyone know about -- or had experience with -- using cedar chips?
Are they OK to use?  We've got access to a free source of cedar chips, and 
are trying out using them in our herb garden as mulching for the aisles.  
(Putting down brown paper bags first, then the chips on top.)  Also 
wondering about using cedar chips in a composting outhouse for helping to 
cover up the smell... any advice would be much appreciated...

	Ken Bezilla
	East Wind Community
	ken@eastwind.org

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 29 09:25:03 1997
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In a message dated 4/29/97 12:03:20 AM, ken@eastwind.org wrote:

>	Hi there --
>
>	Anyone know about -- or had experience with -- using cedar chips?
>Are they OK to use?  We've got access to a free source of cedar chips, and 
>are trying out using them in our herb garden as mulching for the aisles.  
>(Putting down brown paper bags first, then the chips on top.)  Also 
>wondering about using cedar chips in a composting outhouse for helping to 
>cover up the smell... any advice would be much appreciated...
>
>	Ken Bezilla
>	East Wind Community
>	ken@eastwind.org

Hi Ken:

Well there's nothing wrong with cedar chips unless you have to pay for them.
 

Since cedar chips are rot-resistant, they are less desirable than other forms
of carbon for litter in compost toilets.  The importance of this depends on
the design of your toilet--it would be less inportant in a double-vault home
built model with capacious shit  chambers.

Generally, if your toilet stinks (You smell, your toilet stinks--Dr.
Johnson's classic distinktion.), you are running it wrong our you used a
shitty design. I'd guess both. You need sawdust, ground corn cobs, chopped
straw, or other high-surface area high carbon materials to absorb the
moisture. Piss should not go with the faeces but in a separate container to
be used directly on the garden.  If you don't do this, your shit pile will
always stink and sweet episodes are just to remind you how bad it usually is.
 You can correct the smell over the short term with fresh grass
clippings--probably a half bushel more or less, depending on the size of the
chamber.  You don't want too much as it will form a gley.  But they do knock
down the stink--don't ask me why.  This is not a permanent solution as if you
DEPEND on grass clippings, you will eventually get a gluey mass that is
harder to deal with than the original stink.  

Basics are:

1)  Air tight design.  This means a seal around the shit hole when not in
use.
2)  Solar chimney-type vent tall enough to suck fumes over the level that
noses of folks on the ground or in nearby buildings.  
3) GENEROUS use of high-carbon materials after each dump.
4)  Diversion of urine to a separate barrel for direct use on garden or, if
you MUST, comopost piles.  (I have to agree with Mollison here that most
compost piles waste effort and nutrient.)

We have a few publications that may be of interest.  I hesitate to metion
them here because I've been flamed for doing so in the past.  You have my
email address.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May  1 12:45:35 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@nuteknet.com>
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Subject: RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems Usenet newsgroup
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From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



