From london@nuteknet.com  Thu May  1 12:37:58 1997
Received: from nuteknet.com (root@svr1.nuteknet.com [207.100.118.20])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA29362
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 1 May 1997 12:37:56 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from ch-d20.nuteknet.com (ch-d20.nuteknet.com [207.100.118.49]) by nuteknet.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA21322 for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 1 May 1997 12:38:01 -0400
X-Authentication-Warning: nuteknet.com: ch-d20.nuteknet.com [207.100.118.49] didn't use HELO protocol
Message-ID: <3368BA0D.5731@nuteknet.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 11:43:10 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@nuteknet.com>
Organization: Venaura Farm -=+=- InterGarden
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems Usenet newsgroup
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------25134FB9613E"
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--------------25134FB9613E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden

--------------25134FB9613E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="rge-ng.txt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline; filename="rge-ng.txt"


From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



--------------25134FB9613E--

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May  1 23:45:20 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12447
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 1 May 1997 23:45:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA16998; Thu, 1 May 1997 23:38:03 -0400
Received: from calzone.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA16147; Thu, 1 May 1997 23:33:16 -0400
Received: (from london@localhost)
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA10016;
	Thu, 1 May 1997 23:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970501233327.8830B-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 23:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Subscription information for this mailing list.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


=======================================
PERMACULTURE mailing list at Envirolink
=======================================

From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu
Natasha Teoli, nteoli@idirect.com
Michael Yount, yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.
Thanks,
Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

==============================
Subscribing and unsubscribing:

send email to:
listproc@envirolink.org
Leave the Subject: line blank. 

In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing:
subscribe permaculture yourname
or if you're unsubscribing type: 
unsubscribe permaculture yourname
(you can also use the words unsub or signoff)

ie.: 
subscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer
or:
unsubscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer

====
To contribute to the list, send mail to 
permaculture@envirolink.org


==================================================================
Permaculture Mailing List at U.N.C.: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
==================================================================

Here is brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for 
details on the U.N.C. listserver (uses the ListProc software).
-    
To subscribe to a list, either use the WILP page:
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/
or more specifically:
http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver:
http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08
or just start at http://help/unc.edu
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Or manually subscribe by email:
-------------------------------
 
The address to subscribe to permaculture is: 
listserv@unc.edu. 

i.e., send email to:
listserv@unc.edu
Leave the Subject: line blank. 

In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing:
subscribe permaculture yourname
or if you're unsubscribing type: 
unsubscribe permaculture yourname
(you can also use the words unsub or signoff)

ie.: 
subscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer
or:
unsubscribe permaculture Permaculture Systems Designer

To post to all the subscribers of the list:
-------------------------------------------

Send your article by email to:
permaculture@listserv.unc.edu

IMPORTANT:
==========
Write down and save the email ID you posted from and the 
name you used to subscribe to the list.
If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be useful;
also, this list is configured to only allow subscribers to 
post articles.

Contact: Lawrence London, london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner 
with any questions, requests or suggestions.






From london  Mon May  5 12:22:49 1997
Received: (from london@localhost)
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26589;
	Mon, 5 May 1997 12:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970505113730.11911A-100000-100000-100000-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 


also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon May  5 12:36:26 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01411
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:36:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA20870; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:27:51 -0400
Received: from calzone.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA19673; Mon, 5 May 1997 12:20:31 -0400
Received: (from london@localhost)
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26589;
	Mon, 5 May 1997 12:22:48 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970505113730.11911A-100000-100000-100000-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:22:44 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 16 10:00:50 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23473
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 16 May 1997 10:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA01713; Fri, 16 May 1997 09:54:43 -0400
Received: from stthomas.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA01158; Fri, 16 May 1997 09:49:00 -0400
Received: from stthomas.edu by stthomas.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #17330)
 id <01IIXJOEMH9C8YLDEC@stthomas.edu> for permaculture@envirolink.org; Fri,
 16 May 1997 08:51:27 CST
Message-Id: <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970516084954.541833492G-100000@stthomas.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:51:27 -0600 (CST)
Reply-To: jcpicard@stthomas.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: jcpicard@stthomas.edu
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: sites in N CA?
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

	I am going to be going on vacation in N California this summer.  I
am wondering if anyone knows of permaculture sites/resource centers I
could visit?  Thank you.
					Jonathan Picard

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon May 19 12:43:45 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA06405
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:43:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA10752; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:37:05 -0400
Received: from welchlink.welch.jhu.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA09754; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:30:20 -0400
Received: by welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA29990; Mon, 19 May 1997 12:31:06 -0400
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970519122741.27573B-100000@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 12:31:05 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: urine as a source of nitrogen
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

I understand that urine is an excellent source of urine and that human 
urine can be used around garden plantings when mixed in a 1:10 ratio with 
water.

Sounds great -- inexpensive and readily available, however I'm concerned 
about potential pathogens from the urine. I've heard that human pee is 
sterile, but I've also read in the _Humanure Handbook_ that urine can 
contain pathodgens.

My question is: is it safe to use pee from a healthy human on the soil 
around one's nitrogen loving vegetables (i.e. brassicas, lettuce, etc.)

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue May 20 08:35:22 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA15466
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:35:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA13303; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:13:19 -0400
Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA12965; Tue, 20 May 1997 08:05:29 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA27579;
	  Tue, 20 May 1997 08:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970520080800_-731852388@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:08:01 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: urine as a source of nitrogen
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

	I have been using urine for about 20 years.  No problem yet.
	Joe's Humanure Book is very well researched.  So well that any litte detail
that could be relevant is included.  It is possible to pass diseases from
urine but in most cases highly unlikely.  If your urinary tract, and or that
of your friends and family, is riddled with disease, by all means use the
urine in a hot compost pile that needs the moisture.  (Do not add it to a
composting toilet.)  Or piss in the woods.
	Because it is so well researched, we distribute Joe's book.  However he is a
bit of a priss when it comes to urine.  How anyone who handles shit from
himself, friends and family day after day could be put off by a little piss
is anyone's guess.  Well, diversity is the name of the game.  (I'm going to
blind CC this note to him--presumably he will take it in the spirit of the
broader context.)  
	The Chinese have been adding urine to gardens for years.  Their numbers have
not exactly been reduced to a straggling few by the consequent plague.
 Lighten up.
	Urine is not merely a source of N but also K and trace minerals.  Strangely,
it contains little P.  Once an element gets into your system (as opposed to
just taking the convoluted tunnel that you are wrapped around), urine is its
primary mode of egress.  A secondary mode is sweat, if you do that a lot,
mensus in breeding-age females, and very minor modes of sloughing off skin,
hair, nails and I suppose the random dismemberment.  However the liver-to
kidneys-to bladder system is the only mechanism for principally disposing of
used and undesirable materials.  
	An aside here--maybe someone with training in physiology can help me here.
 What happens to the phosphorous.  Is it consumed in the continuing
conversion of cartiledge to bone and in the stiffening of bones themselves?
 In that case, can reduction of P in diet help limit osteopoisis?  As I said,
this is aside the point but an interesting avenue of questioning, I think.
	Regarding rates of dilution, that is real arbitrary.  10:1 is nominal.  I
use much greater rates in transplanting seedlings and even in potting up
fairly developed young trees.  I've spoken to people who use urine straight
up, as it were, on onions as I have with celery.  My observation, though, is
that in dry weather, additional irrigation is required when using urine,
presumably because its salinity creates osmotic pressure in the wrong
direction.  On the other hand, I find it quite practical to walk between rows
with inverted urine jugs during a rain storm.  Rate of dilution?  --depends
on how much it happens to rain.
	Generally, urine fertilization works best in highly organic soils and very
best in deep mulch which has had its capacity to bind to the fertility
factors in the urine developed by gradual increases in doses. 
	We have a special soils issue of our publicaton THE INTERNATIONAL
PERMACULTURE SOLUTIONS JOURNAL that covers all major gardening methods
suitable in permaculture.  Email me for details.  Other than that, I'm off
this topic for a while.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed May 21 18:22:11 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22242
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 21 May 1997 18:22:10 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id RAA07389; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:41:20 -0400
Received: from MIZZOU1.missouri.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id RAA05475; Wed, 21 May 1997 17:32:19 -0400
Received: from lincolnu.edu by MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP;
   Wed, 21 May 97 16:33:30 CDT
Received: from @alice.lincolnu.edu by lincolnu.edu (8.6.9/SMI-4.1)
	id VAA05187; Wed, 21 May 1997 21:46:45 GMT
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970521153955.5e8f1a06@alice.lincolnu.edu>
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 15:39:55
Reply-To: erba@alice.lincolnu.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Andrew Erb <erba@alice.lincolnu.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: groundhog troubles
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970519122741.27573B-100000@welchlink.welch.j
 hu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: erba@alice.lincolnu.edu
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

Help, I planted some cabbage and broccoli plants and a groundhog ate them.
Will a fence stop him if it goes down into the ground will he dig under it?
 Should I trap and relocate the groundhog, poison it (this seems really
cruel to me, I don't want to do that), spray the plants/seedlings with a
hot pepper or garlic spray?  Are there any other options?  

Andrew Erb erba@lincolnu.edu


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 23 03:02:10 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA09570
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 23 May 1997 03:02:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id CAA17062; Fri, 23 May 1997 02:51:08 -0400
Received: from arl-img-8.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id CAA16893; Fri, 23 May 1997 02:48:07 -0400
Received: by arl-img-8.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
	id CAA10892; Fri, 23 May 1997 02:50:44 -0400
Message-Id: <199705230250_MC2-1724-6DCA@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 02:50:34 -0400
Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: urine, manure, electrolytes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by calzone.oit.unc.edu id DAA09570
Status: O
X-Status: 

ON 5/20 Dan H. wrote: >>What happens to the phosphorous? Is it consumed in
the continuing conversion of cartilage to bone and in the stiffening of
bones themselves?  In that case, can reduction of P in diet help limit
osteoporosis?<<

Manure is relatively rich in Phosphorous, as organic fertilizers go, and,
as mentioned, urine is relatively low in P. Phosphorous and Calcium are
both cycled through our bones and cellular colloids on a continual basis,
in an interesting relationship whereby our bodies attempt to maintain a
balance in the blood and other colloidal tissues (cells, bones, etc. -- we
are basically formed of a variety of amazing colloidal gels of varying
composition and function, none of them static). The attempt to maintain a
balance between P and Ca often results in the loss of Ca from bones and
cellular fluid as Ca is taken from bones to keep the cellular fluids
balanced between the P and Ca. The leaching of Ca results because P is more
plentifully taken into our bodies in our diets. The old soda-pops with
phosphoric acid bubbles were very hard on women’s' (and men’s) bones,
rapidly-leaching Calcium. 

This is analogous to the relationship between Sodium and Potassium, both
are relationships are electrochemical processes. In a natural diet,
Potassium is more plentiful than Sodium, and so in hot, humid climates salt
must be taken in to balance the potassium (if you sweat too much and then
cramp, eat bananas or blackstrap molasses; if you get dizzy and queasy, eat
some salt -- half a teaspoon with a glass of water... water taken without
salt when feeling hot and queasy can make you quite sick). 

At any rate, I find a quart of urine in a 5-gallon bucket of water to be
great for container plants, 2 quarts in a 5-gallon bucket is plenty strong
for growing plants and will result in quick salt build-up in container
plants. A person can collect a quart of water a day without worrying about
holding it in when away from home to collect every drop. If you produce
much less than this, drink more water -- it's good for you. This amount of
urine will keep your garden looking very nice. 

The fact that N and K are quite water-soluble, and so lost in urine whereas
P is relatively insoluble in water and so stays in the feces is
representative of these elements' behaviors in the soil, where N and K are
easily leached by rain or irrigation, whereas P is held relatively tightly
by the soil's organic matter and clays. To loose P from the soil you need
plant roots or erosion, and since the P binds most plentifully to the
smallest soil particles (since it sticks ("adsorbs") to surfaces, and the
smaller the particles the more the additive surface area per volume). For
this reason, a little erosion goes a long way, since it is the most
finely-divided --and therefore richest in adsorbed P -- particles of soil
which are washed away most readily.

Moral (ethic?) of story: recycling of both urines AND manures is necessary
to maintain a balance of these nutrients in the soil ecosystem. Health
codes prohibit using human manures -- even composted -- on food plants
(who's watching?), but manures can easily be used to fertilize the meadow
areas we all keep in and around our gardens for mulch production, and
P-rich mulches then transferred to the garden areas, if this level of
caution is desired. 

Risking long-windedness, I'll repeat Jeavons' advice to keep 70 percent of
a growing area in mulch production, and 70 percent of the much area (or
around 50 percent of total area) in carbonaceous mulches, the rest in
nitrogenous mulches, in order to keep nitrogen and carbon cycles balanced
in the gardens and mulch-producing areas (remember to return some mulch
materials to the mulch fields). I've found this advice to result in very
nice soil, with practically no inputs from outside the area (if you're not
using manure, add bone meal or rock phosphate in moderation). Soil tests
will tell you if some element is missing from your system.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue May 27 13:37:26 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08617
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:37:24 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id NAA17066; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:32:31 -0400
Received: from welchlink.welch.jhu.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id NAA15550; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:19:13 -0400
Received: by welchlink.welch.jhu.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id NAA19138; Tue, 27 May 1997 13:19:54 -0400
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970527131742.18048A-100000@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 13:19:54 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture design course 7/12-27, MD/PA area
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

Permaculture Design Course
Heathcote Intentional Community
July 12-27 

To make the transition toward a sustainable society, it is imperative that
we take responsibility for our own lives and meet our basic needs for
food, shelter, energy, gainful employment, and supportive community.  The
purpose of this course is to offer you practical training in permaculture
design techniques so that you can begin the application of these skills at
home and in your local community.

The course will cover the standard Permaculture Design Course curriculum,
with emphasis on working with natural systems. This course will be an
immersive experience in community living and permaculture design.

Permaculture education is a synthesis of classroom and participatory
learning, interactive education (observation exercises, role playing, guided
meditations, visioning, group sharing, and hands-on exercises), design
team work & presentation, and creative problem-solving.

Design course topics

Ecological living
Ecosystem dynamics
Identifying issues & establishing goals
Permaculture principles
Mapping & tools
Energy analysis and landscape design
Building soil and erosion control
Conserving water and nutrient flows
Forests, hydrology and microclimates
Growing & eating: Gardens, edible landscaping
Livestock and wildlife
Local useful and edible plants
Waste as a resource
Skills for creating community
Living well in cities: Urban permaculture
Implement what you learned: Take it home


Who should attend?

The course will be useful for people with varying levels of experience
from students and lovers of nature to design professionals. The main
requirement is a commitment to implementing sustainable living practices
in rural or urban areas.

Design course instructors

Dawn Shiner, a Permaculture Designer, herbalist, and homeschooling mother,
began teaching Permaculture in 1987 at Slippery Rock University and has
done numerous land consultations, workshops, and design courses.
Delighting in exploring minimal-impact lifestyles, Dawn and her family
recently founded Dancing Green in Cochranton, PA, to teach, demonstrate,
and model Permaculture principles of design to the general public.
Apprentice teacher Frank Hyldahl has extensive experience in gardening,
foraging, nursery, and site implementation.

Site

The Heathcote Community Conference Center is located 30 miles north of
Baltimore, MD, and 20 miles south of York, PA. It is nestled in a narrow
valley on a 37 acre community land trust.

Food, Lodging, and Other Amenities

Vegetarian meals, lodging in the conference center bunk room, and tent
sites are included in the design course. Care for children age five and up
is available with prior notification at an additional cost. Special
accomodations may be requested in advance.

Cost: $775, $25 discount if register before June 1,
limited work exchange and tuition assistance available)

Prerequisite: read Mollison and Slay's Introduction to Permaculture
        


Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed May 28 03:58:56 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA12178
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 28 May 1997 03:58:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id DAA14432; Wed, 28 May 1997 03:51:24 -0400
Received: from kiel.netsurf.de by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id DAA14349; Wed, 28 May 1997 03:48:31 -0400
Received: by kiel.netsurf.de (Smail3.2.0.95)
	  from [194.64.167.187] (194.64.167.163) with esmtp
	  id <m0wWdUi-00125IC@kiel.netsurf.de>; Wed, 28 May 1997 07:50:04 +0000 (GMT)
Message-Id: <l03102804afb193302e1b@[194.64.167.187]>
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 09:52:16 +0200
Reply-To: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Thilo Pfennig <Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Cc: permakultur-ML@ml.deceiver.org, bpf-ineb@igc.apc.org
Subject: Earth Network Update - May 1997
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

>From: Earthnet <earthnet@terra.ecouncil.ac.cr>
>Date: 27 May 97 16:38:49
>To: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de
>Subject: Earth Network Update - May 1997
>
>The Earth Network for Sustainable Development - May 1997
>
>HIGHLIGHTS OF RIO +5
>
>Rio+5 Breaks New Ground for Sustainable Development
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>The Rio+5 Forum, held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil from 13-19 March, broke
>new ground by bringing together an unprecedented range of experienced
>and committed "stakeholders" in the development of innovative
>strategies for moving sustainable development "from Agenda to Action" --
>the theme of the Forum.
>
>Organized and coordinated by the Earth Council, the Forum was the focal
>point of a year-long process of consultations and research involving
>nearly 6,000 organizations worldwide.  The Forum engaged the following
>diverse groups in forging new links and alliances, and generated a rich
>harvest of experiences and strategies:
>
>- National Councils for Sustainable Development (NCSDs)
>- Community-based organizations and local authorities
>- Business and industry organizations
>- Science, technology and research institutes
>- NGO networks
>- Financial institutions
>- UN development agencies
>- Environmental organizations
>- Philanthropic organizations
>- Values and education groups.
>
>The Forum generated global media coverage and concluded by reaching a
>"multi-level" consensus on "systems-based" approaches for addressing
>key sustainable development challenges across disciplines, sectors,
>institutional and national boundaries.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio)
>
>
>A Vision for NCSDs
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>A fundamental aim of Rio+5 was to strengthen and advance the work of
>NCSDs around the world.
>
>116 Representatives from 71 National Councils (63 from NGOs and 53 from
>government) elaborated a common vision of NCSDs as leading
>"multi-stakeholder" bodies for "operationalizing" the economic,
>environmental and social goals of sustainable development at the
>national and local level.
>
>A series of critical issues and related actions were defined by NCSDs in
>a document which was subsequently presented to the Fifth Session of the
>UN Commission on Sustainable Development (UNCSD) in New York in April.
>
>The document also makes the following key recommendations for guiding
>the successful establishment and evolution of NCSDs:
>
>- Governments should create and support high-level, multi-stakeholder
>NCSDs which bridge the public and private sector, and are capable of
>participating in international decision-making processes;
>
>- NCSDs should have the widest possible representation of major players
>in the public and private sector, including all major groups identified
>by Agenda 21;
>
>- NCSDs should be  task-oriented advocates of integrated policies for
>sustainable development -- promoting participation; educating and
>communicating; monitoring and evaluating progress; disseminating and
>promoting tools for sustainable practices; and supporting local action;
>
>- Multilateral institutions -- the World Bank, UNDP, UNCSD, UNEP,
>regional banks and others -- should involve, rely upon and support
>NCSDs, in order to elevate sustainable development in the global agenda.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/particip)
>
>
>Global Governance Panel Convened
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>A central precept emerging from the Rio+5 Forum was that global
>agreements and global sustainability must be built on local and national
>sustainability. A high-level panel was convened on this subject on March
>18, co-chaired by Earth Council Chairman Maurice F. Strong and Israel
>Klabin,  President of the Brazilian Foundation for Sustainable
>Development.
>
>The Global Governance Panel was moderated by Klaus Schwab, Founder and
>President of the World Economic Forum. The panelists were: World Bank
>President James Wolfensohn, who spoke on "The Role of International
>Financial Institutions"; UNDP Administrator James Speth who presented
>"The Role of International Development Agencies"; Stephen Schmidheiny,
>Founder and President of of the World Business Council for Sustainable
>Development (WBCSD),  who spoke on "The Role of Business"; and Katia
>Drager Maia, Coordinator of the Brazilian NGO Forum and Earth Council
>Executive Director Maximo Kalaw, who presented "The Role of Civil
>Society".
>
>The panelists pointed out respective challenges for governments,
>business and NGOs in integrating the social, economic and ecological
>dimensions of sustainable development into their policies, programmes
>and actions. The presentations also identified the need for sustainable
>development to become the integrating framework for UN institutions, and
>for global accords to be made relevant to local and national
>sustainability.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio5/18en.html)
>
>In a separate meeting with representatives of NCSDs, Mr. Wolfensohn
>expressed the World Bank's commitment to reforming its policies towards
>sustainable development by the year 2000. He also pledged the Bank's
>future support to NCSDs, with the specific aim of increasing civil
>society participation within their structures.
>
>
>President Cardoso Addresses Forum
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Brazilian President Fernando Henrique Cardoso, acting as Honourary
>President of the Rio+5 Forum, delivered a nationally-televised speech to
>Forum delegates on "The Role of State". In his remarks of 18 March,
>President Cardoso stressed that sustainable development is impossible
>without the establishment of democracy and equity at all levels of
>government and society, from national to local.
>
>President Cardoso commended the Forum for "being of great profit to all
>of us who are interested in advancing new practices for the
>transformation of our society and the achievement of sustainable
>development."
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio5/mar18/cardosoen.htm)
>
>
>Regional Alliances Formed
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Rio+5 Forum delegates resolved to form stronger collaborative
>partnerships for advancing sustainable development at the regional
>level, based on mutual priorities and needs. Two important agreements
>for Latin America were reached in this respect:
>
>a) Forum delegates from the Southern Cone region of Latin America
>adopted the "Declaration of Santiago", which mandates the creation of
>the Alliance for Sustainable Development of the Southern Cone (ALISUR)
>by civil society as well as business organizations in Brazil, Uruguay,
>Paraguay, Chile and Argentina. The new alliance was endorsed at the
>Forum by other civil society organizations throughout Latin America.
>
>b) Delegates from the Caribbean region resolved to create a similar
>multi-stakeholder Alliance for Sustainable Development of  the Caribbean
>(ALICAR). The proposal was subsequently endorsed by Caribbean member
>states of the Latin American Parliament (Parlatino) at a meeting held in
>Aruba in May, and an organizing committee has already been established
>with the participation of civil society organizations, government
>representatives and the Earth Council.
>
>(contact: Lorena San Roman, Regional Coordinator for Latin America
>and the Caribbean -- lsanroma@terra.ecouncil.ac.cr)
>
>
>Rio+5 Reported to UNCSD and NGOs
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Major conclusions and recommendations of the Rio+5 Forum were presented
>to a Ministerial Session of the UNCSD on 8 April by Maurice Strong.
>
>Mr. Strong summarized the Rio+5 process and its complementary value to
>the UN's own five-year review process. He emphasized the experimental
>nature of Rio+5 in generating a rich harvest of "action experiences",
>while providing a framework for linking, integrating and managing a
>wide range of sustainable development issues.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio/followup/strong.htm)
>
>On 11 April, Maximo Kalaw delivered a statement to a UNCSD plenary
>session which summarized the consultative and research processes of
>Rio+5. He emphasized Rio+5's contribution to enlarging the concept of
>"common but differentiated responsibilities" beyond the financial and
>develoment capabilities of countries, to encompass major stakeholders of
>civil society in the building of an integrated and coherent management
>system for sustainable development.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/rio/followup/kalaw.htm)
>
>In a separate "question and answer" session held on 21 April with some
>NGOs active within the UNCSD process, Mr. Kalaw explained the
>complementary role of Rio+5, and clarified related issues of "political
>space" and funding. A cooperation agreement was produced to guide the
>Earth Council's future relations with members of the NGO Steering
>Committee of the UNCSD, and national NGO networks..
>
>
>Earth Charter Draft Approved
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Another key outcome of the Rio+5 Forum was the approval and presentation
>of the Earth Charter "benchmark draft" by the Earth Charter Commission,
>whose inaugural meeting during the Forum capped a year of initial global
>consultations on the Charter's structure and contents. The meeting was
>co-chaired by Commission members Mercedes Sosa, Mikhail Gorbachev, and
>Jim MacNeill.
>
>The benchmark draft combines principles contained in various existing
>charters, codes of ethics and declarations. On 8 April, the benchmark
>draft was presented by Maurice Strong to the Opening Plenary Session of
>the UN Commission on Sustainable Development (UNCSD). On 15 April,
>Mikhail Gorbachev delivered an internationally televised speech at
>George Washington University in Washington, DC., in which we spoke at
>length about the benchmark draft and Earth Charter process.
>
>Delegates of the Rio+5 Forum have been invited to organize consultation
>meetings on the benchmark draft within their own constitutencies,
>organizations and networks, as part of ongoing and expanding
>consultations worldwide. The results of these consultations will be
>integrated into a new working draft for possible review and approval by
>the Earth Charter Commission in mid-1998. This would help build momentum
>for its presentation to the United Nations, expected by the year 2000.
>
>(visit --> http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/value)
>
>
>Next Steps for the Earth Council
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Rio+5 also pointed to the need for the Earth Council to intensify its
>programme for NCSDs. In response, the Earth Council is embarking on a
>three-year programme to support and strengthen approximately 70 NCSDs.
>The programme will initially focus on strengthening  NCSDs in Bolivia,
>Costa Rica, Finland, Japan, Mexico, Niger, Philippines, Poland and
>Uganda -- all of which participated actively in Rio+5, and  have
>demonstrated a political willingness to promote multi-stakeholder
>participation.
>
>In addition, the Earth Council is seeking initial funding support for
>the establishment of four regional secretariats to work directly with
>NCSDs, primarily in the development of training programmes and forums
>on specific sustainability issues such as biodiversity, economic reform
>and ecology, and energy efficiency.
>
>
>"Multistakeholder" participation in the Rio +5 Forum
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>NGO networks:                         	         32
>Community-based Organizations (CBOs):             7
>NCSDs:                                          116
>Local authorities:                               15
>Business:                                        26
>Women's Networks:                                 9
>Indigenous Peoples:                               9
>Youth:                                           12
>Values and Educational Groups:                   29
>Philanthropy:                                     2
>Policy, Science and Technology Institutions:     96
>UN and International Financial Organizations:    41
>Donors:                                          16
>Special Invitees:                                23
>Earth Charter Commission:                        14
>Media:                                           12
>
>
>Total delegates from South:                     262
>Total delegates from North:                     197
>
>A database of Rio+5 participants is currently under development at
>the following URL:
>
>http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr/scripts/dbml.exe?Template=/FoxDB/rio5conf/rio5conf.db
>m
>
>*****
>
>For more information about Rio+5, the Earth Charter and other Earth
>Council initiatives, please re-visit our WWW site at:
>http://www.ecouncil.ac.cr or contact us directly via e-mail.
>

<http://www.comlink.apc.org/lav/lav/menschen/thilo.html>
LAV-Homepage: <http://www.comlink.apc.org/lav/>


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu May 29 16:28:30 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA23554
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:28:30 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id QAA11511; Thu, 29 May 1997 16:00:17 -0400
Received: from arl-img-3.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id PAA10494; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:52:51 -0400
Received: by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
	id PAA21666; Thu, 29 May 1997 15:55:30 -0400
Message-Id: <199705291555_MC2-177E-812B@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 15:55:22 -0400
Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: Kirby Fry <72530.1353@compuserve.com>,
        PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Shared ideas...
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by calzone.oit.unc.edu id QAA23554
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Interesting and intriguing ideas from Keith Elwell-Gavins and Joe Dalsin...
Both ideas are valuable and would interact well with each other... 

Sharing designs is a wonderful idea, especially to we here in the Temperate
Zone, where the techniques of Permaculture as specified in the Design
manual sometimes need a degree of adaptation. I often find confusion among
experimenters resulting from taking tropically-adapted ideas verbatim from
"The Book" and applying them in higher-temperate latitudes. And the entire
permaculture "thing", albeit composed of many, many old -- even ancient --
ideas, is "new" enough that the sharing of ideas and applications is still
very important.

Keith's CorelDraw idea is great, the use of vector-maps instead of bit-maps
good also... iconic symbols could "easily" be produced by an
architecturally- or artistically-oriented person with a scanner, and a
customized version of CorelDraw, etc. could be the vehicle... licensing
problems, possibly. Or something which could be distributed for use with
CorelDraw that wouldn't be based on distribution of the actual program...
users would need their own CorelDraw.

I feel these kind of software solutions are important and am presently
working on a database for use with the Microsoft Access database program,
for use by non-profits to keep track of mailing lists, membership
categories, IRS tax-form-based accounting, etc. (not of much use to those
of you in Australia, of course, but the core idea is the same). Many people
who could be contributing to the body of information or work are, I find,
held back by those same details which others of us find less daunting... I
am having to produce the database for my own work, anyway, as Keith is
doing with his Corel program, and with a little fiddling in the end, these
types of fairly-involved efforts can be generalized for sharing.

Good luck with your CorelDraw project Keith, I hope someday to see a
generalized version offered which I and others can purchase from you or
your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

Jack Rowe
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
PO Box 9882
College Station, TX 77842
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 30 00:26:15 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA03619
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:26:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA06466; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:19:22 -0400
Received: from calzone.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA06136; Fri, 30 May 1997 00:16:30 -0400
Received: (from london@localhost)
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA02003;
	Fri, 30 May 1997 00:19:12 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970529234829.16362E-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 00:19:10 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Shared ideas...
In-Reply-To: <199705291555_MC2-177E-812B@compuserve.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 



On Thu, 29 May 1997, Jack Rowe wrote:

> your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
> we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
> idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
> turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

This is a great idea for an interactive permaculture page. 
Creating a resource, accessable by email, for archiving
PC design plan submissions from Permies around the world
is easy to do. I use the mhonarc mail2html converter/archiver
to store links to other PC resources that I run across. Mhonarc will
index articles by date and thread. Newsgroups are much better at doing 
all of this and I hope to make a few PC ones available soon. 

All you do to make your PC designs viewable for others in my
permaculture homepage is create your email with whatever message text
and file attachments you want (include all your graphics and any other
html code and  text-based documents, i.e. complete web pages with 
graphics and text) and send it to any of these destinations:
[have a look at some of these URLs to see how this works]

permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu   -  PC forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-info/maillist.html

permanet@sunsite.unc.edu    -  PC Links forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-links/maillist.html

organic@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Organic gardening forums
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/forums/organic-agriculture/maillist.html

rural@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Small Farm forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/agriculture/forums/small-farm-BB/maillist.html

dirtfarmer@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Regenerative agriculture forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/feedback/dirtfarmer/maillist.html

renew-energy@sunsite.unc.edu    -  renewable energy forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy/mailarchives/renew-energy/maillist.html


Also, you might be interested in following the progress of
the soon-to-exist Usenet newsgroup, rec.gardens.ecosystems
in its homepage at:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/rge.html  
This should become a valuable resource for permaculturists.


Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
---------------------------------

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri May 30 08:32:10 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29034
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:32:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA05309; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:25:56 -0400
Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA04835; Fri, 30 May 1997 08:19:24 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA21995;
	  Fri, 30 May 1997 08:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970530082209_1856064295@emout19.mail.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 08:22:09 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        72530.1353@compuserve.com, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Shared ideas...
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

Sharing design ideas can be useful.  It is also important to honor original
work and to avoid sharing any but the best work.

I confess that I was burnt in this regard about 15 years ago when New England
permaculturists decided to house designs at Gap Mountain Permaculture.  We
also circulated designs among a few "active" designers.  Well so far as I
ever found out, my designs were the only ones filed at Gap Mountain, at least
as long as I was associated with them.  The "exchange" designs that I
received were garbage.  A designer's original work is never fully compensated
by the design fee and the right to re-use it needs to be delegated carefully.
 Otherwise, design work is unsustainable.  There is little that a competent
designer who as visited a site and made a proper assessment needs to take
from a design for an unrelated site.  Those things that transfer are properly
set up as STANDARD DESIGNS and their use licensed.  Otherwise the capable are
crushed under the heavy burden of carrying the incapable. 

Personally, I feel it is more useful for the capable to teach than to design,
though design jobs are appropriate in some circumstances too.  A better use
of communication resources might be to convince the incapable to qualify
themselves before either teaching or designing.  If this were successful, the
progressive quality dilution of permaculture practice would hault and might
even reverse.

I advise all permaculture designers to copyright their materials,
particularly if they are to make the available on public media.  In most
countries, a copyright notice copyrights a document and in many any original
work is automatically copyrighted.  (But the notice may remind others.)

If I want to use your standard design, I'll ask for permission and expect to
pay a (reasonable) license fee per use.  Good design work does not fall out
of the sky into someone's lap.  It results from hard work qualifying oneself,
usually a lifetime committment to honing the creative process, and a lot of
leg work and thinking and practical experience.  99% of this is investment
and 1% is immediate return, what you get for the first time you use a
standard design.  Designers who throw away the 99% aren't sustainable as
designers.  

Put another way, the over-riding principle of permaculture design or
ecosystem design is the law of gifts--there must be a harmony between giving
and receiving.  You have to feed the ox.

Yankee Permaculture has its standard designs available in our special order
list, as well as a cross sections of both professional and student designs of
high quality.  These cover mainly cool temperate areas, though there is some
subtropical and tropical material as well.  I'll provide information on our
special order materials on request.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Aug  1997. Internships available. Copyright
, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Jun  3 12:21:43 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10718
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:21:42 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA16180; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:16:55 -0400
Received: from dub-img-8.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA15418; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:09:46 -0400
Received: by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
	id MAA05764; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:12:35 -0400
Message-Id: <199706031212_MC2-17C0-7D42@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 12:12:24 -0400
Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: Roundup and genetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by calzone.oit.unc.edu id MAA10718
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Our friends at Monsanto chemical company (makers of Roundup herbicide) are
doing more than taking a merely passive approach to creating
genetically-engineered disasters. Monsanto is not just a chemical company
-- it is also one of the largest seed companies in the world, following a
trend over the last 3 - 4 decades of chemical companies buying-out seed
companies. The interaction between seeds and chemicals is clear to
Monsanto, who makes both agricultural toxins and chemical fertilizers. Just
ONE of their recent genetic-engineering coups: a cotton plant which can
survive more than twice the previously-toxic levels of Roundup, so that
farmers can use ever-more of the persistent herbicide in a vain attempt to
keep apace with weeds' increasing resistance to the "drug". As many of
those who lived through the 60's and 70's know too well, addictive need
increases faster than physical tolerance -- hence overdose. Too bad that
humans, frogs, etc. don't build resistances to these agricultural "drugs"
as quickly as the weeds and insect pests do! Overdose time!

Some quotes of interest, taken from the most recent Seeds of Texas Seed
Exchange's member's Directory:

"While insecticide use increased tenfold since the 1940’s, crop losses to
insects doubled..." Pimental, et al, 1983.

"In North and Central America, cotton production is seri-ously threatened
by the worst record of superpests of any crop worldwide... resistant to
chlorinated hydrocarbons, organophosphates, and carbamates, and fast
becoming resistant to pyrethroids..." Piper and Soule, ‘91

“The chemical DDE, a breakdown product of DDT [banned in 1969], was still
found in about 40 percent of the food sampled from US grocery shelves in
1983”... Fenner, 1984.

"In California alone, 22 different pesticides have been detected in
groundwater as a result of normal agricultural practices..." Alternative
Agriculture, 1989, National Re-search Council.

Wish us luck!! Jack

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Jun  9 23:18:03 1997
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA16679
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:18:02 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA03504; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:10:20 -0400
Received: from calzone.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA02948; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:07:01 -0400
Received: (from london@localhost)
	by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA14702;
	Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:09:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199706100309.XAA14702@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:09:55 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: CFV: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated (fwd)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 

------- start of forwarded message -------
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Reply-To: rge@infobahn.net
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening
Subject: CFV: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org
Expires: 1 Jul 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Archive-Name: rec.gardens.ecosystems
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 23:17:40 GMT


                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems	Ecosystems and organic gardening. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 Jun 1997.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>

RATIONALE: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995 showing that the
number of home gardeners just in the U.S. had grown to a total of 78
million. A little over one third of those home gardenrs used mostly organic
gardening techniques, a little over one third used mostly non-organic
techniques, and the remaining one third used mostly a combination of organic
and non-organic techniques. The trend is towards increased participation in
organic gardening especially with starting home gardeners. There is no
existing newsgroup clearly focused on organic gardening or organic
techniques.

Successful organic gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening
because it requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural
community inter-relates with the physical and chemical enviroment of the
home garden. Rec.gardens.ecosystems is being proposed as a newsgroup with an
extensive FAQ dealing with the many issues of organic gardening and the ways
these issues inter-relate with the ecosystems of the garden and the larger
community.

The resources are in place for: 1.) Rec.gardens.ecosystems to have its own
website; 2.) to have the on-topic articles archived and made available
through WWW; and 3.) to have the group FAQ available via WWW and FTP.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems would also employ a robot moderator backed by human
moderators to minimize problems with cross-posting and to help keep the
discussions focused. The proposed newsgroup has the potential to be an
important resource for many home gardeners.

CHARTER: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.

The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequency if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, ‘flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderator checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Administrative contact address: ecosys-admin@sunsite.unc.edu
Article submission address: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu

END MODERATOR INFO.

HOW TO VOTE:

Follow these instructions *exactly*!  Votes are counted by computer.
You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

    rge@infobahn.net

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements:

    I vote YES on rec.gardens.ecosystems
    I vote NO on rec.gardens.ecosystems

    Voter name:

If your mail software does not indicate your real name (for example, AOL
does not), include _exactly_ the statement above on a _separate_ line
and add your name after the colon.  Having your name in your signature line
is NOT enough!  Do NOT join the lines together or remove the words
"Voter name"!

You may also vote ABSTAIN (which records an empty vote) or CANCEL (which
removes any earlier votes).  ABSTAIN does not affect the final vote count
in any way but is listed, whereas CANCEL is not.

If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to
Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/uvv/.

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One vote per person, one account
per voter.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.
Anonymous, forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:

The bionet.* groups

-- 
Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
------- end of forwarded message -------

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Jul 12 00:17:45 1997
Received: from fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA02413
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:17:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA09154
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:14:29 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA15131; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:52:00 -0400
Received: from sub.sonic.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA14037; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 23:46:53 -0400
Received: from default (d156.pm4.sonic.net [208.201.229.156]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA25712 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:50:22 -0700
Message-Id: <33C6FDD6.637D@sonic.net>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:45:26 -0700
Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: New on the event horizon for Oct.
References: <33C6FBEC.23B6@sonic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-envelope-info: <keithdj@sonic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

Keith Johnson wrote:
> 
> Sonoma Permaculture
> presents:
> POND BUILDING AND EARTH WORKS
> with
> KEITH JOHNSON AND MIKE COLLINS
> October 10, 11, 12 1997Angwin, California (N. Napa Vly)
> Learn to install water catchment systems such as ponds, transfer
> ditches
> and contour infiltration channels to supercharge your land with water.
> To Register call Petra or Daniella Hauptman 707-965-3234 or 3117, or
> Keith at Sonoma Permaculture
> 707-829-5524 or E-mail <keithdj@sonic.net>. $250, pair or group
> discounts, will barter.
> 
> Course includes:
>         Global and Bioregional Water Cycles: The Big Picture
>         Constructing a Series of Linked Ponds Using Keyline Principles
>         Recharge and Restoration ofAquifers and Water Tables
>         Soil Conservation and Erosion Control
>         Using Earth-moving Equipment Ecologically
>         Aquatic Plants and Pond Ecosystems
>         Chinampa: An ancient Aztec and Mayan irrigation system
>         Wrap-Up Potluck and Planting Party Oct. 18
> 
> Course Instructors:
> 
>         Keith Johnson: Director of Sonoma Permaculture, offers 25 years of
> gardening
> experience and 10 years Permaculture application. He has grown or
> propagated thousands
> of varieties of plants and maintains a sizable collection of rare and
> useful species.  He
> manages a 10 year old  design, consulting, and construction company
> specializing in masonry,
> rock walls, waterfalls, wetland biofilters, earth-repair, food forestry,
> and runoff
> management.
> 
>         Mike Collins: Organic Farmer and landscape contractor brings 20 yrs of
> farming and
> construction experience to this course. A UC Davis Olericulture
> graduate, he's presently
> working on Permaculture earthworks and design, plus a nursery of useful
> species for
> Permaculture projects on the North Coast. He can also report  on
> emerging Permaculture
> projects in Southern Mexico.
> 
> Deadline for workshop registration is 1 week  prior to event.  Dress
> appropriately for weather and wear strong shoes or boots, gloves, and
> eye protection.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

-- 
Keith 	
keithdj@sonic.net


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Jul 12 09:08:12 1997
Received: from fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04260
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:08:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA25596
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 09:04:57 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA08903; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:57:54 -0400
Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA08751; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:54:34 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA15057;
	  Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:58:08 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970712085807_848010207@emout10.mail.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:58:08 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: keithdj@sonic.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Robin Permaculture Newsletter--Special Edition
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

 Elfin Permaculture News

Permaculture Internships in Florida

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have two internships available at Barking Frogs
Farm in central Florida.  All interns will be exposed to sustainable
lifestyle and given opportunity to participate in the functioning of our
permaculture activities, including the  farm. Internships are available
year-round on the farm with the duration   negotiable. 

The Elfin Permaculture  intern will assist in the development  of our
permaculture design for our newly acquired farm.  S/he will take
measurements, document,  plantings,  produce  drawings and maps, and write
the first draft narrative of the design.

The Yankee Permaculture  intern will assist in the production  of our
publications, which include a journal, a digest, two directories, and a
series of specialized papers  and pamphlets.

Both interns are free to take any online design course  that runs during
 their internship.  Both interns will contribute to design implementation and
routine tasks as well as managing their own special projects.  Long term
interns have the opportunity to develop profit sharing and/or a position as
caretaker at  the farm.

For more information, reply with specific questions and a self-description
(less than 200 words) to Dan Hemenway, Peermacltur@aol.com.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Jul 30 18:17:43 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA08028
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:17:43 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA09215
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:14:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id SAA02784; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:04:39 -0400
Received: from marine.sonic.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id RAA02174; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 17:59:01 -0400
Received: from sub.sonic.net (sub.sonic.net [208.201.224.8])
          by marine.sonic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP
	  id PAA21420 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:04:38 -0700
Received: from default (d109.pm3.sonic.net [208.201.229.109]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA30172 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:02:46 -0700
Message-Id: <33DFBB6C.7E9F@sonic.net>
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:08:44 -0700
Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture Intro Course in Sebastopol
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-envelope-info: <keithdj@sonic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

An Introduction to
Permaculture
at Sweetwater Farm CSA
 Sebastopol, CA 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, What Is Permaculture?

Permaculture (permanent culture) is the conscious design and maintenance
of cultivated ecosystems that mimic the diversity, stability and
resilience of natural  ecosystems. It  harmoniously integrates
landscape, people and technologies to provide food, shelter, energy, and
other needs in a way that will sustain present and future generations.
It also supports community structures such as economic systems,  finance
and trade  systems, as well as land access and cultural concerns. It can
provide you with the techniques and tools for transforming  
even badly damaged land into beautiful, ecological, high-yield,
low-maintenance oases.

?????????????????????????????????????
Who, When, Where, What, etc.:
Sweetwater Farm CSA
417 Furlong Rd, Sebastopol, CA 95472
Fri. Oct 3, 7-9PM, Sat. & Sun. Oct. 4-5, 9AM-5PM
*Fee: $80*
Includes 2 lunches, snacks, beverages, camping and a guided tour of
Occidental Arts and Ecology Ctr.
To Register call Lucy: 707-829-3203, or Keith at Sonoma Permaculture
829-5524,or send email <keithdj@sonic.net>
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Course instructors:
Keith Johnson, Mike Collins, Erik Storm, Ishi Woods, Lucas Edmonds, and
others.

> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Jul 31 08:34:39 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19157
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:34:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA23475
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:31:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA15046; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:17:30 -0400
Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA14345; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:12:37 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA07232;
	  Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970731081629_-1206250228@emout01.mail.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture Design Course Online
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 

 Elfin Permaculture News

Online Permaculture Design Course  begins  in September

	Elfin Permaculature's next Permaculture Design Correspondence Course, with
an email classroom, will begin  in September 1997.  The course draws on the
Elfin Permaculture's standard three-week design course and follows the
outline below:
	SECTION 1:  Introduction and Basic Principles
		a)  World ecological problems and interrelationships.
		b)  Principles of natural design.
		c)  Permaculture design concepts.
		d)  Classical landscapes.
		e)  Patterning, edges, edge effects.
		f)  The Permaculture Design Report
		g)  Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much as we
have worked out at the moment--this is not part of ordinary permaculture
design courses).
	SECTION 2:  Appropriate Technologies  in Permaculture Design
		a)  Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc.
		b)  Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods, perennials,
tree crops, food parks, composting toilets, livestock, "pest" management,
food storage, seed saving, cultivated systems, forests,  etc.
		c)  Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc.
		d)   Buildings.
	SECTION 3:  Social permaculture.  Design Report.
		a)   Design for catastrophe.
		b)  Urban permaculture.
		c)  Bioregionalism.
		d)  Alternative economics.
		e)  Village development.
		f)  Final design reports and critiques.
		g)  Final evaluation.
	DESIGN SECTION.  (Requires Section 1.)  Students complete  a permaculture
 design
	Students follow a set reading schedule supplemented by  notes from the
instructor. They discuss reading assignments  in an email classroom.  The
instructor also supplements course materials  with resources drawn from
varied components of the internet.  Students practice explaining or teaching
permaculture basics, give special reports, and prepare a complete
permaculture design.  The course runs 20-26 weeks, depending on the time
needed to complete  discussion of various topics.  Students completing all
course requirements receive a Permaculture Design Course certificate.
	Students may arrange to enroll individual sections  of the course in any
sequence, depending on their financial  and schedule  requirements.  People
may also arrange  to monitor the course at nominal  cost.  Enrollment  in the
Design Section  is limited to 20 people.  
	Instructor Dan Hemenway has taught  permaculture worldwide in Europe, Asia,
the Pacific and North America. Dan  is also founder, editor and publisher of
The International Permaculture Solutions Journal,  highly regarded among
permaculturists and PROD (Permaculture Review Overview and Digest ). He is
program director of APT (Advanced Permaculture Training), founder of the
Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network (FERN), and active in related movements such
as remineralization. He contributes to the development of permaculture with
ongoing work on principles of transformation.  Dan holds five diplomas in
various aspects of permaculture from the International Permaculture
Institute. He received the annual Conservation Award from Friends of Nature
in 1983 and the Community Service Award from the International Permaculture
Institute in 1984. In 1991, he was named as a delegate to "Roots of the
Future," a conference of NGOs in Paris, France, to prepare input to the UN
"Earth Summit" held in June, 1992. More recently, Dan was cited in
Swathmore's Who's Who in America for 1996-97, and  from 1995 to the present
has served as Honorary Chairman, Permaculture Foundation - Net_Work - Kenya,
 Homa Bay, Kenya. 
	For details, email Elfin Permaculture at  elfpermacl@aol.com

Permaculture Internships in Florida

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have two internships available at Barking Frogs
Farm in central Florida.  All interns will be exposed to sustainable
lifestyle and given opportunity to participate in the functioning of our
permaculture activities, including the  farm. Internships are available
year-round on the farm with the duration   negotiable. 

The Elfin Permaculture  intern will assist in the development  of our
permaculture design for our newly acquired farm.  S/he will take
measurements, document,  plantings,  produce  drawings and maps, and write
the first draft narrative of the design.

The Yankee Permaculture  intern will assist in the production  of our
publications, which include a journal, a digest, two directories, and a
series of specialized papers  and pamphlets.

Both interns are free to take any online design course  that runs during
 their internship.  Both interns will contribute to design implementation and
routine tasks as well as managing their own special projects.  Long term
interns have the opportunity to develop profit sharing and/or a position as
caretaker at  the farm.

For more information, reply with specific questions and a self-description
(less than 200 words) to Dan Hemenway, Peermacltur@aol.com.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Aug  6 22:08:26 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13796
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:08:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA00825
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:04:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id VAA15988; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:56:39 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id VAA15773; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:52:56 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13679
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 22:00:42 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11650
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:57:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970806215636.11563B-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 21:57:00 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: permacultural orchard (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 14:21:31 -0700
From: Ralph Hertle <Ralph.Hertle@stud.uni-hannover.de>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: permacultural orchard

Hi!

  I am doing a thesis paper on orchard management to produce apples for 
juice. Having read Fukuoka and Mollison, I find their thoughts very 
interesting, however not detailed enough to apply them to my problem. 
Also, in Northern Germany, permacultural horticulture does not seem to 
work well enough to use it commercially. The Kennedys, who have been 
setting up the permacultural idea for Germany, could not help me yet with 
my particular problem.
  So, maybe, you could hint me to someone in a similar climatic situation 
who is running an orchard or would know something about that. 

  Thanks a lot,

  sincerely Ralph

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Aug 11 01:02:15 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA19441
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:02:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA22169
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA22716; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:39:48 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA21429; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:26:36 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA18558
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA23954
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:30:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970811002907.23883A-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 00:30:40 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Spader Clinic at BD Conference (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:32:06 -0400
From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@igg.com>
To: bd-l@biodynamics.com
Subject: Spader Clinic at BD Conference

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Great News!!

Eugene Canales (BIODYNAMICS #210-212) of Ferarri Tractor has offered to
conduct a "spading" clinic at the East Coast Biodynamic Conference Oct 3-5.

The Claymont Court Agricultural Project, the site of the conference, has
been using  a 7ft Tortella spader with a recent model 70-hp John Deere
tractor with optional low gearing for the past year. It is Eugene's
intention to use this equipment to show in the field the 'whys and hows' of
spading as well as demonstrate some 'tricks of the spade' and answer
questions from spader users and those interested in using spaders on their
beds and fields in the future. The Claymont growers will be on hand to
discuss their experiences with this appropriate approach to tillage. (They
LIKE their spader!!)

The presentation is in addition to the lecture on 'Walking Tractors' by
Eugene Canales which was announced previously. This presentation will be
demonstrated with the BCS line of walking tractors and may even include a
demonstration of the  BCS walk-behind spading machine!!! (Highly
recommended by Elliot Coleman for the 'small' producer.) Other European
'walking tractor' lines will be discussed and there will be a slide show
and questions and answers.

[I hope my enthusiasm for these two events is not construed to be
commercial. I have not seen many opportunities for alternative growers to
find experienced information on these worthwhile and practical approaches
to tillage and cultivation and am happy that we will get an opportunity to
provide this information at the East Coast Biodynamics Conference.]

The East Coast Biodynamic Conference ("Alan Chadwick: 30 Years Later") is
being held at Claymont Court in Charles Town, WV (about 90 minutes from
downtown Washington DC) Oct 3-5, 1997. It is being partially sponsored by
the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association and the Demeter (BD
Certification) Association with a little help from Record Tools (marketers
in North America of the famous Sheffield England D-handled "Bulldog" spades
popularized by Alan Chadwick).

Trade Show space is available at this conference. (Yes, there will be
stirring machines AND flow forms demonstrated!)

For more information about the East Coast Biodynamic Conference, Contact:
Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 FAX:(304)
876-9414 email: biodynamics@biodynamics.com or check out the web page at
www.biodynamics.com.

For more information about the Spading Clinic or the Walking Tractor
Presentation, or general questions about alternative farm implements,
contact Eugene Canales, Ferarri Tractor, POB 1045, Gridley, CA 95548 (916)
846-6401 FAX: (916) 846-0390.


===========================================================================
To Post to the Bio-Dynamics Mailing list: bd-l@biodynamics.com
===========================================================================
Subscribe to BIODYNAMICS: Farming and Gardening in the 21st Century
the Bi-Monthly Magazine about Developments in the Art and Science of
Biodyamics.

Noted viticulturist, orchardist and Biodynamic growing consultant, Alan
York, editor.

BIODYNAMICS: Farming and Gardening in the 21st Century is the journal of
the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America.

6 issues a year for $35

1-800-516-7797

The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America
POB 550, Kimberton, PA 19442 USA

VISA/AMEX/MasterCard accepted

(International Subscriptions are higher. Contact the BDFGA for a quote).

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.

Opinions expressed in mail through this list, whether by the moderator or
by list members,  are simply the opinions of the poster and do not
necessarily  reflect the opinions of the BDFGA.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.



The BD-L e-mail list is open to all and subscribing is easy: simply send
an e-mail to:

bd-l@biodynamics.com and put "subscribe BD-L" in the Subject.

(I'll need your name and physical address in the Body of the message, but
it will be released to no one)

You'll soon start getting messages.  If you don't like what you see, send
another e-mail to:

bd-l@biodynamics.com and put "unsubscribe BD-L" in the Subject.

Check out the Biodynamic Association WEB PAGE:
      http://www.his.com/~claymont/bda.html


Thank you,

Allan Balliett, Moderator, BD-L
===============================




From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 15 20:38:52 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29207
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:38:52 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA12593
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:35:01 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id UAA01577; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:17:53 -0400
Received: from marine.sonic.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id UAA00874; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 20:12:13 -0400
Received: (qmail 6873 invoked from network); 16 Aug 1997 00:12:26 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8)
  by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 16 Aug 1997 00:12:26 -0000
Received: from default (d49.pm.sonic.net [208.201.229.49]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA24208 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:10:06 -0700
Message-Id: <33F4F1A1.130@sonic.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 17:17:37 -0700
Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture Global Directory
References: <33F4F11B.3760@sonic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-envelope-info: <keithdj@sonic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: A

> 
> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol, Ca. A year and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of global Pc contacts and orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated list that is available on the net? It has been a very valuable resource and I'd like to keep it current. Thanks.
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 17 09:58:13 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15078
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:58:13 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA03875
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:54:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA21724; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:42:19 -0400
Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id JAA21569; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:37:08 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id JAA08679;
	  Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:41:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970817094123_198933763@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 09:41:24 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: keithdj@sonic.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture Global Directory
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 8/16/97 12:34:40 AM, you wrote:

>> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol, Ca. A
year
>and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of global Pc contacts
and
>orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated list that is available on the
net?
>It has been a very valuable resource and I'd like to keep it current.
Thanks.
>> --
>> Keith
>> keithdj@sonic.net


Hi Keith:

We publish a complimentary listing, about 2,000+ organizations doing work
compatible with permaculture, including some permaculture groups, centers and
publications.  It's called TRIP--The Resources of Inernational Permaculture.
(We are pretty restrictive regarding permaculture groups and centers as there
are so many around in name only.)  If someone has actually taken the effort
to validate a six page list of PC groups, I'd certainly like to see it.
 Please post the contact when you find it.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 17 23:27:05 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25956
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:27:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA14898
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:23:11 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA17549; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:12:03 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA17026; Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:04:28 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25782;
	Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA11740;
	Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:08:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970817225936.11533A-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:08:43 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture Global Directory
In-Reply-To: <33F4F1A1.130@sonic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 




On Fri, 15 Aug 1997, Keith Johnson wrote:

> Hi, I'm the director of Sonoma (County) Permaculture in Sebastopol,
> Ca. A year and a half ago a friend downloaded an extensive list of
> global Pc contacts and orgs, 6 pages worth. Do you know of an updated
> list that is available on the net? It has been a very valuable resource
> and I'd like to keep it current. Thanks.  > -- > Keith >
> keithdj@sonic.net

That was the Permaculture FAQ written by Steve Diver at ATTRA, htmlized by
Michael Yount at Communications For A Sustainable Future:

http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/faq.html

or the text version at:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/faqs/permaculture.faq.v1.3


Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Aug 26 13:04:09 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18046
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:04:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA27858
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:00:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA20457; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:48:43 -0400
Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA19879; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:41:36 -0400
Received: (from mailgate@localhost)
	by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id MAA12067
	for permaculture@envirolink.org; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:46:02 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199708261245_MC2-1E3F-CB6B@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:45:38 -0400
Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Legumes
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id NAA18046
Status: RO
X-Status: A

Keith queried:

>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>us would be inoculating our seeds?
Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great at
finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how the
plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they have
found the bacteria. 

>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent or so --
ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are cut
release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
analogous for the nitrogen in the roots. 

>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended when soil
nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping and
receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, "catch
crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. For
these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of nitrogen,
it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), corn,
etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green such
as mustard. 

On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become established
on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue. 

As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit trees
tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems and
will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful Valley
in California. 

Jack Rowe
Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Aug 28 08:56:39 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA23763
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA01675
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:52:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA13066; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:42:46 -0400
Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA11823; Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:36:49 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA10726;
	  Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:41:15 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970828084114_757305427@emout14.mail.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 08:41:15 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Legumes
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

OK, I'm going to make things really complex, since some how I did not get
Keith's post, and interpose my comments with Jack's.  More needs to be said.

In a message dated 8/27/97 5:28:39 PM, you wrote:

>Keith queried:
>
>>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>>us would be inoculating our seeds?
JACK'S REPLY:
>Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great at
>finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how the
>plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they have
>found the bacteria. 
>
ELFIN PERMACULTURE REPLY:  Some legumes fix nitrogen and some don't.  I read
somewhere that MOST do not, but I don't remember the source.  Fortunately,
most crop legumes (all that I know about) fix nitrogen.  The rate varies, as
Jack suggests.  At least as important as the species of fixer, however, is
soil condition, including mycorhhizal fungi, which promote fixation, certain
trace minterals, and of course pH.  High levels of available N depress
fixation, generally. Moreover, at least some legumes, such as white Dutch
clover (T repens) increase the rate if fixation when cut or grazed!  What a
deal!  The more you use the more you get.  Probably due to mycorhhizal
action, soil organic mater promotes fixation.  Personally, I have not yet
selected crops purely because of their rate of fixation, there being so many
other factors to consider.  A really good design option is to use n-fixing
trees as shelter belt and fence posts, particularly if they have other
browse, forage, feed, food, fuel and timber options.  Not to mention shade,
transpirational cooling, wildlife habitat, ad infinitum.  Sorry--got carried
away--we are at the stage of selecting such trees now for our design at
Barking Frogs Farm.

Don't neglect non-leguminous nitrogen fixers, which can do a really
impressive job.  I've never seed anything nodulate like some alders on land
that owns us up in Massachusetts.  Phenomenal!  No N shortage in that swamp!
 Here at Barking Frogs Farm, our biggest N fixer is azolla in our waterways.
 Most of you know that this is an aquatic fern that symbiotically associates
with a N fixing cyanobacteria (misleadingly called blue-green algae). 

>>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?

JACKS REPLY: >Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent
or so --
>ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
>nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are cut
>release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
>nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
>analogous for the nitrogen in the roots. 
>
ELFIN's REPLY:  Well as a general think Jack is right.  However some
associations "leak" significant amounts N directly into the soil and so
benefit companions directly.  Again, I suspect that this is amplified by
mycorhhizae, though this is not by any evidence, but because it is the
pattern.  Not even a guess, just a suspicion.  Good Master's Thesis for
someone.  Good permaculturists don't worry about short term cycling, anyway,
we are in for the long haul.  If you take most of the crop off and never
return anything, you aren't in for the long haul.  Completely closed cycles
are a myth, granted, but completely open cycles are a suicide note.  So add
the fixers that suit the total design and move that soil fertility up by
seady increments.  Rapid changes in soil are an invitation to soil-borne
diseases. 
	Fukuoka worked out a lot of this.  I'd substitute another legume very, very
carefully as he took `15 years to work out his system and I may not live
another 15 years.  (I'd like to, of course.)  


>>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?

JACK'S REPLY>In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended
when soil
>nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
>nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
>sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping and
>receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, "catch
>crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. For
>these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
>requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of nitrogen,
>it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), corn,
>etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
>legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green such
>as mustard. 
>
>On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
>establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
>included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
>species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become established
>on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue. 
>
>As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit trees
>tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
>here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems and
>will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
>grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful Valley
>in California. 

ELFIN'S REPLY:  Well Jack clearly tried to steer us back into permaculture
here.  If you plant something mainly for one reason, it isn't permaculture.
 Stack those functions, fella!  There are more considerations than we can
think about, but we should think about as many as we can.  In Massachusetts,
in highly organic soil that was naturally well mineralized (too rocky to plow
and apparently never grazed), I'd get three pickings, massive pickings, of
Commodore green beans in a 90-frost free day growing season.  This is a 65
day bean.  Clumps of nodules got to the size of a child's fist.  I fertilized
the beans with wood ash for the trace mineral and pH bump.  One light
dressing, no ammendments, following corn that bore up to 6 ears per stalk,
three large ones routinely.  I've followed the same pattern in other soils
with maybe 1/5 the yield if I was lucky.  Generally I rotated 1/4 legumes on
an area basis and 1/2 of the garden was corn, alternated each year and 1/4
other vegetables.  We added manure, fed livestock probably tons of weeds, ate
like kings and had the market on premium green peas in our pocket.  (We got
20 percent higher than retail--supermarket prices--for snow peas at a local
chinese restaurant solely on the basis of quality)  Even the peas were
heavily nodualted.  

I'm a big guy and pretty strong.  I'd take it poorly if people decided not to
feed me because I'm big and strong anyway.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.



From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 19:18:31 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA22815
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:18:31 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA21791
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:14:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id TAA01244; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 19:02:35 -0400
Received: from mail.iol.ie by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id SAA00905; Fri, 29 Aug 1997 18:57:37 -0400
Received: from rsh-258.res.hw.ac.uk.hw.ac.uk (dialup-007.navan.iol.ie [194.125.44.71]) by mail.iol.ie 
	  Sendmail (v8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA05926 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>;
	  Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:02:02 +0100
Message-Id: <199708292302.AAA05926@mail.iol.ie>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 00:02:05 +0100
Reply-To: npjoyce@iol.ie
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Niamh P. Joyce" <npjoyce@iol.ie>
To: <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: unsubscribe
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Priority: 3
X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

how do I unsubscribe myself from this list
I subscribed when I had an account at mcenpj@hw.ac.uk
which is still active

Niamh P. Joyce       
npjoyce@iol.ie    +353-405-46041  fax+353-405-46479
B.A.I.Mechanical Engineering, Trinity College, Dublin
M.Sc. Environmental Pollution Control Management,
Heriot Watt University, Edinburgh

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 07:46:49 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27672
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:46:49 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA27729
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id HAA06638; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:35:53 -0400
Received: from MIZZOU1.missouri.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id HAA06283; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 07:28:42 -0400
Received: from lincolnu.edu by MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP;
   Sat, 30 Aug 97 06:32:24 CDT
Received: by lincolnu.edu (8.6.9/SMI-4.1)
	id LAA09675; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 11:46:43 GMT
Message-Id: <Pine.3.89.9708300631.A9632-0100000@lincolnu.edu>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 06:46:43 -0500 (CDT)
Reply-To: erba@lincolnu.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Andrew Erb <erba@lincolnu.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: permaculture in Missouri
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970505113730.11911A-100000-100000-100000-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


Does anyone know of any permaculture activities in the Mid-Missouri area?

I am currently trying to get a little money donated to start a 

school/community organic garden and outdoor classroom project going.

	
	Andrew Erb  erba@lincolnu.edu   

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 10:15:21 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29229
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:15:21 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA16242
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA12921; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:03:29 -0400
Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA12856; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:01:57 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id KAA11231;
	  Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970830100625_112101764@emout15.mail.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 10:06:27 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: erba@lincolnu.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Our Annual Permaculture Letter
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

The following letter is our annual Permaculture report.  Send SASE or
international return mail coupons and address label for a print copy, which
includes drawings and additional information.

Dan Hemenway
***

Barking Frogs Farm
Home of Yankee Permaculture and Elfin Permaculture
P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  Email:  Permacltur@aol.com
Dear Brothers and Sisters:
	Greetings from our new permaculture center, Barking Frogs Farm. Our new
place is on good-old Florida wetland, real alligator and cotton-mouth snake
country.  We were just looking for a temporary residence, to avoid paying
rent, when we found this place.  It is so beautiful we both immediately
wanted to settle here, despite the fact that anything one does in the state
of Florida is fouled with regulations and red tape.
	So here we are, under giant oaks, huge water hickories and gorgeous sabal
palms, polishing up our design for the place and trying to get our various
permaculture programs under way. We have acquired two adjacent homesteads,
one house for a permaculture center with room for guests and the other for
our private residence.  
	Since 1981, we subsidized our permaculture work, particularly the
publications, with other earnings. Now we intend to make permaculture pay for
itself. Permaculture outreach does not pay.  But our land-based projects have
profit potential, so that they can help retire the mortgage on the
permaculture center.	
	So what's new.  The most exciting new event, after our new home, is Dan's
development of a Permaculture Design Correspondence Course for the internet.
 The course combines the practicality of good old fashioned book study with
the dynamic of an email classroom.  Dan appears to be the last hold-out for
the three-week live course, preferring the longer formats, and the new course
fits the bill.  It runs between 20 and 26 weeks, depending on the needs of
the particular group.  Students in the course have gained  a good grasp of
the design principles and we are sure that the longer course duration makes
it easier to integrate them into daily life.  For more about the course,
email us at <Permacltur@aol.com>. Ask for a course protocol and reading list.
 
	Tuition is $1,000, of which half covers individual assistance on the
student's personal design project.  Monitors pay $100. The course may be
taken in segments--it has three parts plus the design project.  We do not
charge extra for permaculture course graduates who wish to do advanced work
in any of our programs.
	The next email course begins in October 1997.  Enrollment is limited to 20.
 We also offer a similar program as a conventional correspondence course, but
because the program is one-on-one, tuition is higher.  We feel that the new
email format enables people in remote areas to attend as well as folks who
cannot take off 3+ weeks to attend our conventional course.  
	Here at Barking Frogs Farm, we now can accept residential students in our
APT (Advanced Permaculture Training) program.  (APT also allows for advanced
students to work at home or in the field.)  By the time you get this, we will
have room for a total of two APT students and interns. Interns have the
opportunity to work on our publications, help in documenting our permaculture
design, and assist in such projects as our aquaculture, agroforestry and
chinampas systems, all, obviously, in the early  stages of development.  APT
students design their own programs, which include producing a design,
implementing it, and participating in some form of research and outreach. 
	Not all was progress.  After four different residences in 1996, our
publications program slowed considerably.  We continue to upgrade some
publications, most recently with an improved rendering of John Fargher's The
Oaks  (Yankee Permaculture Paper #12.) We issued no new publications. Pending
publications are listed on the reverse of this sheet.  We are hopeful that we
will get a publications intern interested in benefiting from Dan's 40 years
of editorial experience.
	Our involvement in the Kenya project is now minimal, as the local organizers
have identified a suitable permaculture expert right over the border in
Uganda. This is much more practical.  We may offer a program in Paraguay.
 Contact us in three months if you want details. Otherwise, we have done
little in the way of marketing workshops and courses. Dan likes staying at
home.
	Plans include development of two poultry forage systems: a movable chicken
coop that we can haul to places where we want weeds or insects cleaned up and
a hexagonal array of fenced forage areas  so that we can move chickens around
to harvest or glean in various rotation schemes. (Well, there are two other
poultry systems in the works, but we will limit this report to one sheet of
paper.)  We hope to acquire a few Asian water buffalo as draft and meat
animals that can pasture in part on the weeds that clog our waterways.  One
of our main thrusts is developing a system of chinampas.  Dan has a grant
proposal out seeking funds to document  chinampas still operating near Mexico
city.  He has a few other grant prospects in mind.  Suggestions are welcome.
Meanwhile, the first prototype Barking Frogs Farm chinampa is nearly finished
and promises to be as high yielding as reputed.  
	Cynthia has taken the next step as a Certified Nurse Midwife, and is
teaching at the nearby University of Florida.  She is very interested in
identifying medicinal herb crops suited for our place, particularly those
that we can process with value added steps.  Wetland species of hawthorns,
including mayhaws, fit the bill perfectly. We have started planting them. We
have also found that the old standby, echinacea, does well on our sandy  land
where moisture hungry sabal palms create arid conditions, regardless of
rainfall.
	We invite you to pass the word about our email course and internships.  This
is a good time to be thinking about getting presents for the Solstice season
holidays.  Please check out our order form to see if there is something you
would like to give, maybe to yourself.  We are still willing to do a limited
amount of away-from-home teaching and consulting.
	We know that most of you are also working hard for Mother Earth in many
ways.  We thank you for your efforts and look to join forces when
appropriate.
For Mother Earth


Dan Hemenway
                                                                   Cynthia
Hemenway

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 12:56:00 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02263
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:56:00 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA17983
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:51:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA21305; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:44:45 -0400
Received: from m2.sprynet.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA20850; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 12:40:39 -0400
Received: from [199.174.199.234] (ad73-234.compuserve.com [199.174.199.234]) by m2.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA23324 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:45:34 -0700
Message-Id: <v01540b00b02db8dadcc1@[199.174.195.217]>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:45:34 -0700
Reply-To: allixes@sprynet.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: allixes@sprynet.com (Allixandria Sherral)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Legumes
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: allixes@m2.sprynet.com
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


>Hi Allixandria:
>
>Please forward the info to the entire permaculture list for me.  From our
>Permaculture Supplier List database of nearly 1,000 entries (email
>YankeePerm@aol.com about availabiity in print or disk forms):
>
>J L Hudson
>POB 1058
>Redwood City CA 94064 USA
>
>They are efficient, courteous and we have not had the awful backorder
>bookkeeping problems that we encounter with many other permaculture-type
>suppliers.
>
>For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
>1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
>consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
>courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
>Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
> YankeePerm@aol.com
>
>The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.


Allixandria Sherral
allixes@sprynet.com
The Golden Spiral
      


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 31 10:23:44 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14992
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA11054
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:19:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA20503; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:10:35 -0400
Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA20226; Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:04:32 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id KAA12963;
	  Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970831100900_891958732@emout11.mail.aol.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 10:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: allixes@sprynet.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:   Re: Legumes
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

We just got another good acacia source for the US while updating our
(commercially available) Permaculture Supplier List.  Though we have known
about The Banana Tree in Pennsylvania for some time,I did not know that they
carry acacia seed.  They have given up their print catalog, it seems and gone
entirely to a web site.  While they have a few plants and seeds suitable for
milder temperate regions, they specialized in subtropical and, especially,
tropical species.  I'd have to take out a bank loan, second mortgage maybe,
to try everything that they have that interests me!  Great stuff.  Check 'em
out at www.banana-tree.com 

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.

From johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com  Thu Sep  4 05:16:35 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA23161
	for <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 05:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from hotmail.com (F11.hotmail.com [207.82.250.22])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id FAA04218
	for <permanet@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 05:12:22 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (qmail 19655 invoked by uid 0); 4 Sep 1997 09:11:51 -0000
Message-ID: <19970904091151.19654.qmail@hotmail.com>
Received: from 207.104.139.194 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
	Thu, 04 Sep 1997 02:11:50 PDT
X-Originating-IP: [207.104.139.194]
From: "john valenzuela" <johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        listserv.permaculture@listserve.unc.edu, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        permaculture@envirolink.org, listproc@cornell.edu, perma@eepo.com.au
Subject: Permaculture Design Course on Moloka'i, Hawai'i
Content-Type: text/plain
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 02:11:50 PDT
Status: O
X-Status: 

   
  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE on the ISLAND of MOLOKA'I, HAWAI'I

Dates: November 29 to December 12, 1997.

Location: Hui Ho'olana, a 77 acre retreat center on Moloka'i, Hawai'i. 
This island was the first place Bill Mollison ever visited in the US.
It is a very rural island with many native hawaiians on homestead land, 
extensive ancient hawaiian fish ponds, and permaculture sites.

Description: The main purpose of the course is to impart permaculture 
principles and methodologies which can be applied anywhere in the world. 
This design course will cover the standard two week cerificate 
Permaculture Design Course curriculum. Through lecture, discussion, 
slide shows, observation, field trips, and hands-on experiential 
learning, permaculture design students will develop the practical skills 
and knowledge to design and implement sustainable systems in harmony 
with the natural world. There will be an emphasis on designing 
permaculture and agroforesty systems adapted to Hawai'i and other 
subtropical/tropical oceanic islands. This will range in scale from 
urban, backyard and small acreage to village and whole island design.

Instructors: Michael Pilarski has taught permaculture in the USA, 
Canada, Belize, Nepal, and Australia, and teaches herbal wildcrafting. 
He is the founder of Friends of the Trees in Washington state. Douglas 
Bullock is a horticulturalist with wide experience in Washington state, 
California, New Zealand, Australia, and Hawai'i. Bruce Hill was raised 
in Argentina and lived in other Latin American countries. He manages the 
Kanahena Farm Nursery in Maui. John Valenzuela is an educator and 
horticulturalist based on the Big Island of Hawai'i. He also has wide 
experience in California, from urban gardening to forestry. The 
instructors are avid and knowledgeable plantsmen with international 
experience.

Cost: US$950 including two weeks lodging, meals, and materials. Campers 
pay a reduced fee. Some partial scholarships are available
The course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Hu'i Ho'olana
         PO Box 99
         Kualapu'u, Hawai'i 96757 
         Tel. and Fax:(808)567-6430

     or: Friends of the Trees Society
         PO Box 4469 
         Bellingham, Washington 98227 
         Tel:(360)738-4972 Fax:(360)671-9668
         URL: www.geocities.com/rainforest/4663   


PS: Please send me any e-mail addresses or URLs that this event should 
be listed at. MAHALO

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep  4 10:58:41 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27028
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:58:40 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA04229
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:54:26 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id KAA03167; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:44:31 -0400
Received: from hotmail.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id FAA13808; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 05:07:17 -0400
Received: (qmail 19655 invoked by uid 0); 4 Sep 1997 09:11:51 -0000
Received: from 207.104.139.194 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP;
	Thu, 04 Sep 1997 02:11:50 PDT
Message-Id: <19970904091151.19654.qmail@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 02:11:50 PDT
Reply-To: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "john valenzuela" <johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        listserv.permaculture@listserve.unc.edu, permanet@sunsite.unc.edu,
        permaculture@envirolink.org, listproc@cornell.edu, perma@eepo.com.au
Subject: Permaculture Design Course on Moloka'i, Hawai'i
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Originating-IP: [207.104.139.194]
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: A

   
  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE on the ISLAND of MOLOKA'I, HAWAI'I

Dates: November 29 to December 12, 1997.

Location: Hui Ho'olana, a 77 acre retreat center on Moloka'i, Hawai'i. 
This island was the first place Bill Mollison ever visited in the US.
It is a very rural island with many native hawaiians on homestead land, 
extensive ancient hawaiian fish ponds, and permaculture sites.

Description: The main purpose of the course is to impart permaculture 
principles and methodologies which can be applied anywhere in the world. 
This design course will cover the standard two week cerificate 
Permaculture Design Course curriculum. Through lecture, discussion, 
slide shows, observation, field trips, and hands-on experiential 
learning, permaculture design students will develop the practical skills 
and knowledge to design and implement sustainable systems in harmony 
with the natural world. There will be an emphasis on designing 
permaculture and agroforesty systems adapted to Hawai'i and other 
subtropical/tropical oceanic islands. This will range in scale from 
urban, backyard and small acreage to village and whole island design.

Instructors: Michael Pilarski has taught permaculture in the USA, 
Canada, Belize, Nepal, and Australia, and teaches herbal wildcrafting. 
He is the founder of Friends of the Trees in Washington state. Douglas 
Bullock is a horticulturalist with wide experience in Washington state, 
California, New Zealand, Australia, and Hawai'i. Bruce Hill was raised 
in Argentina and lived in other Latin American countries. He manages the 
Kanahena Farm Nursery in Maui. John Valenzuela is an educator and 
horticulturalist based on the Big Island of Hawai'i. He also has wide 
experience in California, from urban gardening to forestry. The 
instructors are avid and knowledgeable plantsmen with international 
experience.

Cost: US$950 including two weeks lodging, meals, and materials. Campers 
pay a reduced fee. Some partial scholarships are available
The course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Hu'i Ho'olana
         PO Box 99
         Kualapu'u, Hawai'i 96757 
         Tel. and Fax:(808)567-6430

     or: Friends of the Trees Society
         PO Box 4469 
         Bellingham, Washington 98227 
         Tel:(360)738-4972 Fax:(360)671-9668
         URL: www.geocities.com/rainforest/4663   


PS: Please send me any e-mail addresses or URLs that this event should 
be listed at. MAHALO

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep  4 11:56:25 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27790
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:56:25 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA16344
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:52:12 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id LAA17594; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:44:13 -0400
Received: from atom.om.com.au by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id LAA13655; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 11:21:39 -0400
Received: from [203.19.108.73] (lennox41) by atom.om.com.au (5.x/SMI-SVR4)
	id AA04347; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:09:54 +1000
Message-Id: <v0213050bb03483835327@[203.19.108.73]>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:26:18 +1000
Reply-To: seedsave@om.com.au
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: seedsave@om.com.au (Seed Savers, Australia.)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: unsubscribe
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 



-------------------------------------------
The Seed Savers' Network, Box 975,
Byron Bay, NSW 2481, Australia.
Tel only: 61 266 857 560
Tel and Fax also: 61 266 856 624
Email: seedsave@om.com.au
World Wide Web: http://www.om.com.au/seedsave
--------------------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Sep  6 00:07:07 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA29512
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:07:07 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA29044
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 00:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA20735; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:50:47 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA20113; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:40:59 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA29383
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:49:44 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA22839
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970905234441.22192F-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 23:45:29 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu
or to access a specific newsgroup:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
InterGarden - Venaura Farm
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
----------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 00:06:28 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04824
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:06:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA29202
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 00:01:15 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA28224; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:47:38 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA27836; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:41:02 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA04650
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:49:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA21688
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970907234025.21490A-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 23:45:38 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


sorry for the typos - correct URLs are below:
---------------------------------------------

The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
- or to access a specific newsgroup:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

Or read them at http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

------------------------------------------------------------------
 Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Dragonfly Market Gardens
 mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
------------------------------------------------------------------




From Elfpermacl@aol.com  Mon Sep  8 08:27:28 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10410
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:27:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09431
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA29481;
	  Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970908082200_-2001713016@emout09.mail.aol.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs)
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 9/8/97 12:14:42 AM, you wrote:

>The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
>unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
>newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
> 
>They are:
>
>permaculture.design
>permaculture.systems
>permaculture.links
>permaculture.information
>permaculture.events
>permaculture.discussion
>permaculture.news
>
>To access them point your news browser to:
>news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
>
>Or point your web browser to this URL:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
>- or to access a specific newsgroup:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

We still get three variations of "You can't get there from Here." from AOL.  

DH

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 08:41:20 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10590
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:41:19 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA11455
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:36:59 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA19361; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:23:05 -0400
Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA18971; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:17:23 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA29481;
	  Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970908082200_-2001713016@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 08:22:00 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 9/8/97 12:14:42 AM, you wrote:

>The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
>unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
>newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
> 
>They are:
>
>permaculture.design
>permaculture.systems
>permaculture.links
>permaculture.information
>permaculture.events
>permaculture.discussion
>permaculture.news
>
>To access them point your news browser to:
>news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
>
>Or point your web browser to this URL:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
>- or to access a specific newsgroup:
>news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

We still get three variations of "You can't get there from Here." from AOL.  

DH

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  8 15:35:34 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17153
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:35:34 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA09601
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:29:20 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id PAA24787; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:15:54 -0400
Received: from smtp.gte.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id PAA24048; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 15:08:22 -0400
Received: from [207.177.88.42] (max1-8.grct.nemr.net [207.177.88.10])
	by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id OAA27199;
	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 14:13:37 -0500 (CDT)
Message-Id: <v02130500b03b36f4bd11@[207.177.88.42]>
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:15:21 -0600
Reply-To: rrfreifelder@ucdavis.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: rrfreifelder@ucdavis.edu (Rachel Freifelder)
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Cc: dancing-rabbit@ic.org
Subject: Midwest consulting opportunity
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: ez049787@peseta.ucdavis.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: A

The Dancing Rabbit Project, a forming ecovillage in northeast Missouri, is
about to close on our purchase of 276 beautiful acres of rolling, grassy
hills, streams and woods.  We are looking for some professional assistance
in creating our land management plan.  The appropriate person would be a
landscape-level thinker with a broad knowledge of soils, hydrology,
ecology, microclimate, etc; familiar with the landscape and climate of our
region; and preferably with design or planning experience in this region.
Specific certification in permaculture is not essential; the consultant
could be trained in landscape architecture, agroecology, regional planning,
etc, so long as they have experience in the above areas.   Our group
already includes an ecologist, a civil engineer, and an experienced small
farmer, and we would prefer to work with someone who will educate us rather
than simply advise us, such that we are able to modify our plan as time
requires.

If anyone on this list can recommend a consultant, please pass on contact
information as appropriate. If you feel qualified to help us, please visit
our web site at

http://www.woodwind.com/dancing-rabbit

and then send a cover letter, resume and some ballpark estimates of
consulting fees to this address and
dancing-rabbit@ic.org.

In community,
Rachel Freifelder
Dancing Rabbit Project


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Sep 21 23:18:03 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14328
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:18:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA17654
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:13:28 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id XAA24149; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:02:26 -0400
Received: from marine.sonic.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id WAA23286; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:53:34 -0400
Received: (qmail 10908 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1997 03:01:54 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8)
  by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 22 Sep 1997 03:01:54 -0000
Received: from default (d142.nas17.sonic.net [208.201.231.142]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA20791 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:58:23 -0700
Message-Id: <3425DFF7.359@sonic.net>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:03:19 -0700
Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: "Hugoculture"?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-envelope-info: <keithdj@sonic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 

I'm searching for information about "hugoculture", a gardening style
using deep and coarse mulches. I saw an article in French at Peter
Bane's but it was a bad photocopy and faxed after that...and I don't
speak French (cest la vie). I've been playing around with it for a few
years and wondered if y'all had tried it or sourced info about it.
Thanks 
-- 
Keith Johnson
Sonoma Permaculture	
keithdj@sonic.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep 22 08:41:09 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18965
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:41:08 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA15723
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:36:35 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA25054; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:26:33 -0400
Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA24722; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:22:07 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA11813;
	  Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970922082654_371930294@emout20.mail.aol.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:27:00 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: YankeePerm@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: keithdj@sonic.net, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  "Hugoculture"?
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: O
X-Status: 


In a message dated 9/21/97 11:07:00 PM, keithdj@sonic.net wrote:

>I'm searching for information about "hugoculture", a gardening style
>using deep and coarse mulches. I saw an article in French at Peter
>Bane's but it was a bad photocopy and faxed after that...and I don't
>speak French (cest la vie). I've been playing around with it for a few
>years and wondered if y'all had tried it or sourced info about it.
>Thanks 
>-- 
>Keith Johnson
>Sonoma Permaculture	
>keithdj@sonic.net


Hi Keith:

We have not seen the material on Hugoculture, however we have published
material on permaculture with deep mulch.  We also have a copy of the Jean
Pain book which goes into some detail on some deep mulch techniques.  That
used to be available in the USA (in English, though a dreadful translation).
 I'm trying to remember who was distributing it.  

The soils issue of one of our publications, THE INTERNATIONAL PERMACULTURE
SOLUTIONS JOURNAL (Vol. 1, #3), goes into deep mulch to some extent as we did
it for a number of years in our old Orange, Massachusetts, location.  It is a
perfect adjunct to seasonal poultry foraging in the mulch (late fall and
early spring).  Grafted apples were girdled when a neighbor's poorly managed
sheds were buldozed by a new owner (rats invaded) but seedlings that
germinated in the mulch were not harmed--mostly nut trees and some crab
apples.  Interesting.  We used chickens against the rats--they broke up the
burrows.  Well I'm never going to sell that closet full of back issues if I
go on.  Besides, I have to harvest water hacinth for our chinampas today.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Sep 24 23:08:05 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27194
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:08:05 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA01298
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 23:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id WAA21933; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:53:37 -0400
Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id WAA21689; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:50:10 -0400
Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA27110
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:59:41 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from localhost (london@localhost)
	by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA00143
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:55:06 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970924225443.120A-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:55:05 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Some information on European Pc groups (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs
X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:33:34 +0200
From: Its van der Es <its.vanderes@pi.net>
To: niamh joyce <N.P.Joyce@hw.ac.uk>
Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Some information on European Pc groups

Hi there !

I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
permaculture issues.
I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
currently doing research on:
- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
- how do they work (who does what);
- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
way);
- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.

I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
could be located best.
For further information you can contact me at:

Its van der Es
Brederodestraat 54-I
1054 MX  Amsterdam
Holland
003120-6893079
its.vanderes@pi.net

From Elfpermacl@aol.com  Thu Sep 25 08:23:28 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03167
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:23:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05081
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:53 -0400 (EDT)
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA10718;
	  Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <970925081821_-1061602099@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  Re: Some information on European Pc groups (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 9/24/97 11:04:05 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote:

>Hi there !
>
>I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
>permaculture issues.
>I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
>information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
>currently doing research on:
>- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
>- how do they work (who does what);
>- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
>- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
>way);
>- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
>I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
>sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
>So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
>and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.
>
>I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
>an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
>could be located best.
>For further information you can contact me at:
>
>Its van der Es
>Brederodestraat 54-I
>1054 MX  Amsterdam
>Holland
>003120-6893079
>its.vanderes@pi.net

Hi

Here is our only Holland contact from our directory, TRIP (The Resources of
International Permaculture).

Permacultuur Niewsbrief
c/o Ronald Oostendorp
Oosterdyk 57 E
1601 DB Enkhuizen

We also have 32 groups listed in the Netherlands (most not specifically
permaculture groups as there are about 15 other categories we include as
related to permaculture).  Email me privately about how to get a complete
copy of TRIP.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Sep 25 08:33:45 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03254
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:33:45 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (envirolink.org [206.210.73.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA06848
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:29:09 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA20743; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:19:59 -0400
Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA20458; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:13:24 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	  by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
	  id IAA10718;
	  Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <970925081821_-1061602099@emout18.mail.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:18:21 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject:   Re: Some information on European Pc groups (fwd)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


In a message dated 9/24/97 11:04:05 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote:

>Hi there !
>
>I'm an environmental engineer, currently studying the web on
>permaculture issues.
>I am examening the possibilities for setting up a permaculture
>information center in Holland, as there is not one existing yet. So I am
>currently doing research on:
>- who are occupying with permaculture in Holland (who is who);
>- how do they work (who does what);
>- what are they focussing on (how do they do that);
>- would they want to participate in such an institute (if yes, in what
>way);
>- why did their efforts not result in such an institute yet ?
>I found quitte some answers to these questions, reading the permaculture
>sites on the web and talking to the Dutch Permaculture avant-garde.
>So I am now making plans to create a business-plan with Fransje De Waard
>and hopefully others that are actually active on promoting permaculture.
>
>I allso found out that there are now (at least) 3 initiatives to set up
>an ecovillage in Holland. In one of them, the Dutch permaculture Centre
>could be located best.
>For further information you can contact me at:
>
>Its van der Es
>Brederodestraat 54-I
>1054 MX  Amsterdam
>Holland
>003120-6893079
>its.vanderes@pi.net

Hi

Here is our only Holland contact from our directory, TRIP (The Resources of
International Permaculture).

Permacultuur Niewsbrief
c/o Ronald Oostendorp
Oosterdyk 57 E
1601 DB Enkhuizen

We also have 32 groups listed in the Netherlands (most not specifically
permaculture groups as there are about 15 other categories we include as
related to permaculture).  Email me privately about how to get a complete
copy of TRIP.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Oct  6 12:49:37 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29560
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:49:37 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA12584
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:44:51 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA15409; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:34:19 -0400
Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA13639; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:23:27 -0400
Received: from Lee (user-38lc8p1.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.35.33])
	by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03240
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:28:55 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971006123022.00d427d8@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:30:22 -0500
Reply-To: lflier@mindspring.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re:  reprise: guilds
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I think the problem here is that we're assuming that everyone knows that
permaculturists are supposed to interplant different species together as
opposed to monocropping.  When Mollison came up with the "guild" concept,
that was far from obvious, and still is to many people that we would teach.

My understanding of a guild as Mollison defines it is any group of diverse
species that are in beneficial relationship to each other (and that
includes us). I think what Dan is trying to say is that we should never
stop thinking about what might make up a good association and that's why he
doesn't want to follow any prescribed list.  I agree that we should never
stop observing and experimenting, but I also think it's OK to look at what
has worked for other people.  This is the way other cultures used to pass
on knowledge to each other and they DID survive quite well before one
culture (us) decided to flaunt the basic laws of survival.

In the course I took from Bill Mollison he emphasised many times that the
knowledge we pass on to others must be simple and easy to pass on to more
people in turn, including people who are "uneducated", of a different
language or culture, and have little scientific knowledge.  In coming up
with guilds, he told us to keep in mind the basic concepts: you should take
advantage of layers (canopy, understory, herb, root, vining plant, etc.),
and think in terms of what each of the plants need and what could give it
to them.  That is, if a plant is plagued by a particular pest insect, plant
something with it that will attract predators of that insect, such as a
dense ground cover that snakes or lizards might like.  If a plant uses a
lot of nitrogen it can be planted with a nitrogen fixer, etc.

As to how to determine what works and what doesn't in your climate and
microclimate, Mollison suggested two things: 1) observe what works well in
natural systems and try to find out through research what characteristics
make them work well, and 2) the first year, plant out as many diverse types
of species as you can get your hands on.  Be prepared to have to control
some species that try to take over!  But you will observe out of 50 or 100
species that you might plant, that 4 or 5 of them do exceptionally well
together, a larger number will do well but not quite as well, and some will
fail altogether.  The next year, plant more of the successes, less of the
failures, and try the neutrals in different associations along with some
that you didn't plant last year.  But the important thing is that if you
plant out hundreds of species right away, SOMETHING will grow, and you will
both learn something and have something to eat, probably even if there's a
bad drought or other adverse condition.

As for Dan's comments that we think we know too much about nature, I'd like
to restate another Mollisonism that is often understated:  ANYTHING we know
about permaculture is ONLY applicable to that 4% of the earth's land mass
that we should need in order to produce our own food.  If a natural system
exists well on its own we should LEAVE IT ALONE.  However almost anything
will help heal the land by comparison to monoculture farming, strip malls,
and places that have become desert due to deforestation.  These are our
areas of focus and we should not attempt to "fix" the rest of the world,
unless we have ourselves damaged it and it needs to be healed.  Nor should
we step up our present rate of food production simply because we can now
get a higher yield from the same space.  That would only result in a
population increase.  The idea is to decrease the amount of space and
resources we are currently using to produce food, and that doesn't need to
be rocket science.  Other cultures and species have fed themselves just
fine by simply being observant of natural patterns and passing their
observations on.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Oct  7 00:57:21 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11959
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:57:20 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA02535
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:52:33 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA09162; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:40:59 -0400
Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id AAA08211; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:33:52 -0400
Received: from Lee (user-38lc8vt.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.35.253])
	by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00598
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 00:39:22 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971007004052.00d2437c@mindspring.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 00:40:52 -0500
Reply-To: lflier@mindspring.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: apology
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Wow Jack, that was very big of you to say what you said publicly, although
I for one didn't have any problem with it.

>I hope the gist of my plea for an open-ended, supportive dialog was not
>lost because of being (ironically as well as idiotically, in this context)
>hidden behind the smart-assed words and tone.

No, I think you had some extremely pertinent things to say.  Smart-assed
vernacular included.

>Kindness and support are the basis of open communication.

Yes... as well as a sense of humor.  Trying our best to be kind is good,
but in the absence of any edge (there's those "edges" again!), human
relationships can get awfully boring and monocultural!

Yes, anger and sarcasm can be very destructive to relationships, but I
think we count anger out only because most of the expressions of anger we
see are inappropriate.  This is because most of us don't express anger when
it IS appropriate, so it's bound to come out elsewhere.

I think anger is a great energizer and motivator.  Bill Mollison even wrote
in his autobiography that it is anger that drives him and has been all
along, and I often feel similarly.  But of course anger is only the flip
side of love - when something or someone we love is threatened, we act to
defend it.  This is as natural among humans as other species.  It's only
when we fail to allow anger to do what it's supposed to do - stir us to
right action - that we start acting stupidly over things we possibly
shouldn't even be angry about.

Just my .02.  Thanks though for your candor in saying what you thought it
was right to say.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
http://lflier.home.mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Oct  7 21:49:52 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11144
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:49:52 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA23434
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:45:03 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id VAA02104; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:27:03 -0400
Received: from marine.sonic.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id VAA00422; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:09:54 -0400
Received: (qmail 23330 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1997 01:19:16 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (root@208.201.224.8)
  by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 8 Oct 1997 01:19:16 -0000
Received: from default (d92.pm2.sonic.net [208.201.229.92]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11376 for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:15:13 -0700
Message-Id: <343AC19E.6E27@sonic.net>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 1997 16:11:26 -0700
Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Keith Johnson <keithdj@sonic.net>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Ianto Evans in the Bay Area
References: <v01550100b057a79b2e8a@[199.4.66.31]> <3432707C.79F6@sonic.net>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
X-envelope-info: <keithdj@sonic.net>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id VAA11144
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Keith Johnson wrote:
> 
> Penny & James wrote:
> >
> > SUSTAINABLE BUILDING:
> > >>LEARNING FROM TRADITIONAL SOCIETIES
> > >>
> > >>SLIDE SHOW AND PRESENTATION BY IANTO EVANS
> > >>At Open Secret Bookstore & Cafe
> > >>October 23, 1997  ~  7:30 to 9:30
> > >>Suggested donation: $10 to $20
> > >>No one turned away for lack of funds
> > >>
> > >>All over the world traditional peoples have used natural building materials
> > >>with reverence and respect for the materials, for their cultural heritage,
> > >>and for the land on which they live. This slide show gives us a profound
> > >>look into the creation of sacred places and the inspirations from which
> > >>wonderful buildings arise.
> > >>Ianto Evans receives his inspiration from extensive work with traditional
> > >>cultures and from the observation of nature. Ianto is a landscape
> > >>architect, applied ecologist, inventor, writer and teacher with building
> > >>experience on six continents. He teaches ecological building and has been a
> > >>consultant for USAID, World Bank, US Peace Corps and foreign governments.
> > >>Ianto encourages and empowers people to take charge of creating their own
> > >>housing by using healthy, resource-efficient and regionally appropriate
> > >>building materials and systems.
> > >>Directions to Open Secret Book Store:
> > >>From San Francisco: Take Hwy. 101 north and exit at the Central San Rafael
> > >>exit. Turn left on Third Street and right onto C Street.
> > >>From the East Bay: Take Hwy. 580 to the Richmond/San Rafael Bridge and
> > >>follow the signs to Hwy. 101 north.  Proceed as above.
> > >>From Sonoma: Take Hwy. 101 south and exit at the Central San Rafael exit.
> > >>Turn right on Third Street and right onto C Street.
> > >>
> > >>This event is sponsored by Dovetail Coalition, a non-profit
> > >>Organization committed to building sustainable communities.
> > >>For more information please call (415) 460-1585 or e-mail dovetail@igc.org
> > >>
> > >>COB AND NATURAL
> > >>BUILDING MATERIALS
> > >>A "GET-YOUR-HANDS-DIRTY" WORKSHOP
> > >>WITH IANTO EVANS AND LINDA SMILEY
> > >>Saturday and Sunday,
> > >>Oct. 25 & 26
> > >>in Occidental
> > >>(about 40 miles north of San Francisco)
> > >>
> > >>Ianto and Linda will present a workshop on building with Cob, a method of
> > >>building using a mixture of earth, sand and straw. Ianto is originally from
> > >>Wales where Cob has traditionally been used for centuries. Ianto and Linda
> > >>live in Oregon and run the Cob Cottage Company.  Both are master cobbers.
> > >>Linda, also a therapist, focuses on intuitive design, sculpting sacred
> > >>space, and building from the inside out. They are committed to helping
> > >>people realize the possibility of escaping the current enmeshment in the
> > >>consumerist model of building and of showing how beautiful, alive,
> > >>healthful living spaces can be created with a minimal flow of cash,
> > >>resources and waste.
> > >>In this workshop we will scavenge the land and explore how to best make
> > >>decisions about using different kinds of materials.  Some of the materials
> > >>we will use and combine are undressed stone, roundwood, earth and straw.
> > >>During the weekend we will construct a small sculptural garden structure.
> > >>This workshop is especially suited for builders, contractors and architects.
> > >>Cost: $225  This includes Thursday night lecture; Saturday evening garden
> > >>tour and dinner at Occidental Arts & Ecology Center; a second and different
> > >>slide show in which Ianto shows beautiful earthen buildings from around the
> > >>world with special focus on recent development in North America; overnight
> > >>camping; and Sunday breakfast & lunch. To register or to receive more
> > >>information call or e-mail Dovetail Coalition.
> > >>
> > >>This event is sponsored by Dovetail Coalition, a non-profit
> > >>organization committed to building sustainable communities.
> > >>For more information please call (415) 460-1585 or e-mail dovetail@igc.org
> > >>Thanks, Nancy McGinley of the Dovetail Coalition
> > >>=======================
> > >>>-- please keep on reading if you are interested in homeless activist work.
> > >>>
> > >>>The Coalition on Homelessness, San Francisco, is in need of student interns
> > >>>to help coordinate a homeless squatter housing project.  The project is
> > >>>called the Vehicularly Housed Residential Community (VHRC) project: a
> > >>>project being developed by a community of squatter's living in vehicles in
> > >>>the China Basin area following a model of tenant run housing.
> > >>>
> > >>>This is a very exciting project as it has grown out of months of community
> > >>>organizing, and because no similar model of homeless housing exists like
> > >>>this in San Francisco (perhaps in the country).  The basic scenario is that
> > >>>the City of San Francisco will lease property in the China Basin area; a
> > >>>nonprofit housing organization will temporarily manage the property until
> > >>>the tenant organization is established enough to takeover management of the
> > >>>property; and tenants will takeover management of property which includes
> > >>>maintenance of the site, paying of lease, employment generation programs,
> > >>>etc..  This is a pilot project which, if successful, will provide a model
> > >>>for the City San Francisco and non-profit housing organizations to develop
> > >>>similar temporary housing projects.
> > >>>
> > >>>If this sounds interesting to you (it could easily be integrated into a
> > >>>design project, or a research project) and if you have time to volunteer at
> > >>>the Coalition on Homelessness (even just 1 day a week), then please call me
> > >>>at 510 -- 628 -- 0735; or email me at <apsalazar@igc.org>; or you can call
> > >>>Judy Appel or Mara Raider at the Coalition of Homelessness, 415 -- 346 --
> > >>>9693.
> > >>
> > >>>-- thank you,
> > >>>Alex Salazar, MS graduate student, architecture
> > >>>
> > >>>P.S. please pass this email onto other people who might be interested in
> > >>>this kind of work.
> > >>
> > >
> > >A. George Beeler,  NCARB
> > >Principal Architect
> > >AIM Associates
> > >210  Fourth  Street, Petaluma, CA 94952-4201
> > >707*763*3300 ® FAX 763*6489
> > > E-mail  AIMassocia@metro.net.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> --
> Keith
> keithdj@sonic.net

-- 
Keith 	
keithdj@sonic.net


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 08:54:47 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA23756
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:54:46 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA03521
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:49:57 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA21911; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:37:27 -0400
Received: from arl-img-9.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id IAA21570; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:29:52 -0400
Received: (from root@localhost)
	by arl-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id IAA24975;
	Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:35:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199710080834_MC2-2327-CB68@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:34:38 -0400
Reply-To: KirbyFry@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Kirby Fry <KirbyFry@compuserve.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.e
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Kinship Gardening
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Sender: Kirby Fry <KirbyFry@compuserve.com>
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id IAA23756
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Hi Miekal,

I noticed you mentioning Kapuler and Brentmar's work regarding
co-evolutionary gardening.  This is a subject I've been interested in for a
few years now after hearing Alan speak in San Francisco in '94.

We hope to get a fair representation of leguminous trees that grow well in
our region, central Texas.  It's hot and humid and close to being
subtropical.  I've already got several varieties of seeds and am looking
for more.  The leguminous trees will be planted directly by seed into our
swales which we hope to install this fall.

Direct seeding swales with productive trees is also another project we're
looking into for restoring lands that have been strip mined here in Texas
for lignite coal.  Mixes of seeds could be broadcast over swaled and
unswaled areas from an air plane as well as by hand.  Maybe some of the
Light Hawk pilots would be interested.

Have you had any experience with making kinship or co-evolutionary gardens?
 Take care for now.

        KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX;
512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/]

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 13:08:05 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00933
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:08:04 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA24983
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:03:16 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA19196; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:54:04 -0400
Received: from sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id MAA18882; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:50:01 -0400
Received: from Garland (s12-pm23.snwestsac.campus.mci.net [208.155.131.191])
	by sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14098
	for <permaculture@envirolink.org>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199710081651.JAA14098@sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:51:55 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Kinship Gardening
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 


>Hi Kirb..
>Nice to see you on the mailing list..
>I spent some time with Olafur last summer at his place in Oregon..he has
formerly been on the list that preceded this one though I haven't see his
name lately..(Olaf, are you there?) They were going through very difficult
legal things with the land they were on but had plans and some progress
towards gardens based on the kinship mapping of families of plants.  I was
waiting to get the maps from him when he sort of disappeared in the
intensity of things but I happily found the maps throughout the Deep
Diversity Seed Catalog which is arranged based on the Kinship/Families.
It's all pretty fascinating to study and imagine (and create) gardens based
on the same. Address is P.O. Box 15700, Santa Fe, NM 87506-5700..send $4.00
>
>How's the new place? Love to Inger and Celeste..
>Vicki
>
>
>

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Oct  8 14:52:37 1997
Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85])
	by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08209
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:52:36 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7])
	by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA27022
	for <london@sunsite.unc.edu>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:47:47 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id OAA03131; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:37:22 -0400
Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
	id OAA02443; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:32:14 -0400
Received: (from mailgate@localhost)
	by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id OAA20104;
	Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:37:41 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <199710081426_MC2-2338-3B77@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:26:44 -0400
Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com
Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org
Precedence: bulk
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: guilds
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
X-Sender: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA08209
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I think a useful starting "answer" to the guilds/standard-designs thing
might be the eternally-useful "Both"...

There are, doubtless, some useful basic designs -- very basic, at the
present level of development of this idea -- that can be passed around as
starting points for local elaboration. At the same time, knowledge of
plants in general, and of locally-adapted plants specifically, is very
helpful. Much of that knowledge may need to be gotten by experimentation,
but a lot of valuable time can be saved by a little study, and by sharing
of ideas.

A couple design functions might distinguish a guild from simple companion
planting. The plants used might serve complementary PURPOSES as well as
complementing each other's growth biochemically. The complementary spatial
relationships -- both under- and above-ground -- of guilded plants goes
beyond the traditional companion-planting framework. The idea of guilds as
groupings of mutually-supportive plants for placement into brittle
environments as pioneers for reforrestation also goes beyond
companion-planting. All this is complicated by the fact of succession --
natural environments are rarely static -- and by the unnatural state of the
average garden, wherein stability is usually enforced by violence. And many
permaculural ideas come from the tropics, where perennial starchy plants
abound, and where there is plenty light to grow these under extensive tree
cover. 

Where do we start? The idea of throwing out as many species as possible --
hopefully locally-adapted -- is perfectly valid, and admits the wisdom of
Nature, and our own beginners' status (side note: in research by the Land
Institute, the greater the number of legume species in an initial prairie
mix, the greater the total number of species -- legume and non-legume -- in
the resulting stabilized community). Any known case of happy association --
as in the companion-planting literature, or with the apple-Rubus mixes Dan
mentioned, etc. -- is another good starting point for further elaboration. 
A combination of these two approaches -- basic framework with a handful of
seed thrown in for good measure -- would cover the "both" aspect nicely.
Don't forget some N-fixers.

Few of us have the time, space or financial resources ("space-time-cash"
continuum?) to design numerous combinations and try them out in practice,
which is too bad. Sharing successful ideas (or even hypothetical ones) is
thus very valuable, as is knowing plants well enough to be able to apply
those ideas locally -- though if you don't know plants well, you can try
them anyway, and will learn... perhaps discovering something an expert
would have missed, in the process! As someone -- Lee, Lawrence? --
suggested, unless we monocrop or apply pavement, we'll probably come out
ahead of the game. 

