From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Feb 19 00:07:27 1997
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Welcome to the Permaculture mailing list at the University of North 
Carolina at Chapel Hill, N.C.!

A statement of purpose and usage guidelines will follow.

Send any questions or requests regarding the list to:

Lawrence F. London, Jr.
london@sunsite.unc.edu
list owner

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Feb 19 20:51:05 1997
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Date: 	Wed, 19 Feb 1997 19:55:06 +0100
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: will a small amount of milk thistle be a prob in WISC?
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rec'd this comment when asking for germination on the very excellent
propagation list.  since Im somewhat unfamiliar with the species Im
wondering what others think about a small planting of milk thistle in a
zone 4 medicinal snake mound.

I should also announce that our personal homepages QAZINGULAZA are up,
most of it not permaculture related in the agricultural sense but we do
have a good lengthy section on gourd culture.

There is also essays by myself & Liz Was on sustaining the hyperculture,
which is our word for the combination of permaculture & hypermedia
integrated.

miekal and
-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
http://net22.com/qazingulaza
e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

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From: Philip Stevens <pstevens@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: cinnamon vine propagation?
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silybum marianum--milkthistle
>
>Im guessing stratification & germination in a hot spring greenhouse
>would do the trick?
>
>
>Also Ive been away & missed out on the seed exchange thread, is there a
>new list set up or what is this about.
>
>Miekal

Miekal -- Sorry to respond so late to your post, but I just wanted to put
in a word about Silybum marianum.  I don't know if it's hardy where you
are, but if it is, watch out!  It's a vicious weed here in California,
doing lots of damage to wildlands by choking out natives.  Unless you're
sure it won't survive outdoors in Wisconsin, you should avoid planting it
-- you could be instigating an ecological disaster.

Phil

#################################################################
Philip Stevens
Assistant Director
Center for Cultural Studies
University of California
Santa Cruz, CA  95064
(408)459-3436
(408)459-4979 (fax)
pstevens@cats.ucsc.edu
#################################################################



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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Feb 20 12:56:13 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Thistles
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At 07:55 PM 2/19/97 +0100, you wrote:
>rec'd this comment when asking for germination on the very excellent
>propagation list.  since Im somewhat unfamiliar with the species Im
>wondering what others think about a small planting of milk thistle in a
>zone 4 medicinal snake mound.
>
Hi Mikel,
Been studying "weeds" in school including thistles and have a few thoughts
based on what I know of other species in WI.
The worst of our thistles is probably Canada Thistle (Cirsium arvense) as it
is a perennial spreading by seed and rizomes. If milk thistle spreads like
this it will probaly be a pest in the garden over time.  Our other thistles;
Plumeless (Carduus. acanthoides), Bull (Cirsium vulgare ) and Musk (Carduus
nutans),  are all aggressive biennials, but much easier to control as you
can effectivly break their life cycle by mowing or snapping their taproot at
stratigic points in their life cycle (just befor flowering).  I assume your
going to harvest the seed, so if the root system isn't a spreading type,
it's probably OK to plant; BUT I'm not sure it's advisable due to the chance
that you will miss some seed now and then  and get a wild/naturalized
population heading into your neighbors corn field.
Mark

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Feb 20 23:18:47 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700
From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Another Permaculture mailing list

Hi everyone,

After the permaculture-mg mailing list was terminated
a few days ago, Lawrence London & I each initiated the 
creation of a new list, so we now have two new lists!
This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
at Envirolink.

First of all, to any of you who receive duplicate
postings or don't wish to participate in this list,
please send a message to listproc@envirolink.org
Include the line
    unsub permaculture
in the body of the message.
Or, write to yount@csf.colorado.edu and I'll remove
you by hand.

The subject of this list is permaculture, a 
design approach to living in harmony with nature.

To contribute to the list, send mail to 
	permaculture@envirolink.org

This list is unmoderated and has three owners:
	Lawrence London,  london@sunsite.unc.edu
	Natasha Teoli,    nteoli@idirect.com
	Michael Yount,    yount@csf.colorado.edu

If you have questions or suggestions concerning the list,
please write to any of us.

Thanks,

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Feb 21 00:08:26 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 00:05:03 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list 
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On Thu, 20 Feb 1997, Michael Yount wrote:

> As long as we avoid cross-posting and keep online
> archives of both lists, everything should work fine.

Apart from the archives of this list kept at Envirolink, accessable
with ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining
archives at sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC permaculture lists.
I also have archives of permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 00:19:27 1997
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Apart from the archives of our permaculture lists accessable with 
ListProc listserver commands sent by email, I am maintaining archives at 
sunSITE of both the Envirolink and the UNC lists. I also have archives of 
permaculture-mg.

Here's how to get at them:

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

permaculture-mg archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 00:53:46 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Movie: "MICROCOSMOS"
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Has anyone seen the 70 minute movie "Microcosmos"?
This was released in 1996 and is the result of 10 years 
worth of work by two French scientists/photographers
documenting insect life in a lush, beautiful, pristine
field somewhere in France. It reveals in closeup detail 
the life cycles and round-the-clock activities of an 
amazing variety of creatures. The photography is stunning. 
Highly recommended.

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:llondon@nuteknet.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 14:49:34 1997
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From: Milogic@aol.com
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Subject: "MICROCOSMOS"
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If any second is needed on recommending MICROCOSMOS, I'll offer it. Great!

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Feb 21 16:20:30 1997
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To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Movie: "MICROCOSMOS"
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Hello everyone..
So glad to be in touch again..
So where would one find this film, "MicroCosmos"?  It sounds wonderful and
something worth having available for people to see..
Vicki 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Feb 23 03:08:23 1997
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From: Rhys Howitt <rhys@macquarie.matra.com.au>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Another Permaculture mailing list (fwd)
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I am automatically on your list or do I need to subscribe?

Rhys Howitt

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Feb 23 11:28:32 1997
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From: woodyw@juno.com
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: garydunn@pullman.com, igg@igg.com
Subject: Job Announcement
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Position for an experienced organic gardener available at Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center.  Experience needed in organic food production in
high desert Southwest landscape, permaculture concepts, fruit orchard
development, and teaching of interns.  Vegetarian and spiritual lifestyle
in a health provider community on 166 permaculture-designed acres on a
mesa in the Patagonia mountains at 4,100 feet.  Please send resume,
letter of interest, and photo to: Gabriel Cousens, M.D. Tree of Life
Rejuvenation Center, P O Box 1080, Patagonia, AZ 85624.  Call
520-394-2060 for further information.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Feb 23 15:17:46 1997
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From: Milogic@AOL.COM
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Movie: "MICROCOSMOS"
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Try one of the specialty video houses advertised in UTNE READER, YOGA
JOURNAL, et al. Bullfrog Films might have it, too.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Feb 24 19:31:53 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees)
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We have been nibbleing around the edges of a discusion on grazing tree and
shrub crops (pun intended).  I'm curious if people out there have expiriance
with this (other than inadvertent maulings of course).  I'm interested in
cool temperate species, and especially what kind of production one gets from
the animals on a browse bearing diet.   I'm  making plans for a tree nursery
this spring and would like some lead time for seed aquisition.  So what's
out there to eat?  Dan already suggested aspens via some russian reserch,
and noted (on a differant list) that alders tend to have palitabilty
troubles.  Other friends suggest that black and honey locust become
excessively thorny when grazed.   What  other ideas are  out there?  
Mark

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Feb 24 19:38:24 1997
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Date: 	Mon, 24 Feb 1997 18:40:52 +0100
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees)
References: <199702250030.SAA47378@humvee.doit.wisc.edu>
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Mark Ludwig wrote:

  Other friends suggest that black and honey locust become
> excessively thorny when grazed.   What  other ideas are  out there?


You must remember that weve planted nurseries of thornless honey locust
with great success, think Ive grown a couple hundred of em from seed. 
whatabout the biomass willow, the one that Bear Creek is pushing,  mine
have only been in the ground for 1 year but they already look pretty
vigorous.

Miekal

-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Feb 24 19:46:53 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees)
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At 06:40 PM 2/24/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Mark Ludwig wrote:
>
>  Other friends suggest that black and honey locust become
>> excessively thorny when grazed.   What  other ideas are  out there?
>
>
>You must remember that weve planted nurseries of thornless honey locust
>with great success, think Ive grown a couple hundred of em from seed. 
>whatabout the biomass willow, the one that Bear Creek is pushing,  mine
>have only been in the ground for 1 year but they already look pretty
>vigorous.
>
On the topic of thornless honeylocust, I'm a little dubious as to weather
their truly thornless under grazing conditions.  I've herd that the thorns
develop in response to browsing, not as a generalized condition.  Anyone put
those things to the test.
Mark

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Feb 24 19:55:49 1997
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees)
References: <199702250044.SAA77070@humvee.doit.wisc.edu>
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Mark Ludwig wrote:



> On the topic of thornless honeylocust, I'm a little dubious as to weather
> their truly thornless under grazing conditions.  I've herd that the thorns
> develop in response to browsing, not as a generalized condition.  Anyone put
> those things to the test.

My feeling about honey locust is that the pods are of much more
nutritive value, why not get these going for 5-8 years & then set it up
so the sheep will graze the pods in the fall.  

Also when I think of grazing I think of what is prolific & vigorous & I
wonder how the hated giant polygonum would do.  We know that the goats
go for those shoots right away, & of course it kinds takes care of its
own propagation, now doesnt it?

without knowing alot about this, I wonder if the more diversity you can
offer the sheep, the more they will move around & habitats would have
chances to really get stablized in a perennial grazing system.

miekal


miekal
-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
http://net22.com/qazingulaza
e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Feb 25 13:22:12 1997
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From: "Charland, Stacy" <CHARLANS@gm1.nigms.nih.gov>
To: "permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees)
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I hadn't heard of sheep-eating trees before - how can I protect my sheep?  ; )

Stacy 


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Feb 25 13:46:42 1997
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From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ovine sylviculture (sheep eating trees) 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 25 Feb 1997 13:02:25 EST."
             <c=US%a=_%p=NIH%l=NIHHUB/HUB/0028366C@imc1.nih.gov> 
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Stacy,

Most trees are root feeders, so applying a heavy mulch 
(e.g., old carpeting) should be enough to protect your
sheep.

A carnivorous friend of mine once told me that lambs are
"swale eating."   Can anyone here verify that?

Michael
yount@csf.colorado.edu

 :}I hadn't heard of sheep-eating trees before - how can I protect my sheep?  ;
 )
 :}
 :}Stacy 
 :}
 :}

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Feb 25 21:31:40 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Organic/sustainable agriculture-videos (fwd)
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Fwd. from marcierose@aol.com:

Video list from Eco-Ag West put on by AcresUSA

>From AcresUSA
PO Box 8800
Metairie, LA 70011
800-355-5313
info@acresusa.com

The Other Side of The Fence
Preserved classic film of Dr Wm Albrecht
father or mineral balance in soils
26 minutes

Biological Control:  learning to Live with the Natural Order
Geared toward high school students
25 minutes, USDA/APHIS

>From Bullfrog Films
PO Box 149
Oley, PA 19547
800-543-3764
610-779-8226
504-889-2777fax
Bullfrog@igc.apc.org

Garden Song
Potrait of Alan Chadwick
28 min

Permaculture with Bill Mollison-Arid Lands
30 minutes

Permaculture with Bill Mollison-in the Tropics
30 minues

Permaculture with Bill Mollison- Cool Climates
30 minutes

>From San Luis Video Productions
PO Box 6715
Los Osos, CA 93412
805-528-8322
805-528-7227 fax

Farmscaping: Advanced Tactics for Achieving Sustainability
33 minutes

Integrated Pest Managemant in Agriculture
30 minutes

Integrated Compost systems
32 minutes

The Miracle of Agriculture: Growing a Sustainable Future
A multicultural look at food and fiber around the world
45 minutes

Sustainable Agriculture
30 minutes

In their Strategies for Sustainable Agriculture series
All run 30 minutes
   Field Crops
   High-Value Marketing
   IPM for Vegetables & Small Fruits
   IPM for Apples 
   Rotational Grazing
   Vegetables

>From University of Vermont Center for Sustainable Ag
802-656-0037
802-656-8874 fax
Vegetable Farmers and Their Weed Control Machines
75 minutes

>From VCS, Inc.
PO Box 319
Wimberley TX 78676
800-840-8852

This Good Earth
re; soil fertility
35 minutes

>From Polyface, Inc
Rte 1 Box 281
Swoope, VA 24479
540-885-3590

Pastured Poultry Profits
Joel Salatin narrates about his own operation
45 minutes


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Feb 26 10:12:05 1997
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Subject: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
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* To: <rural@sunsite.unc.edu>
    * Subject: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
    * From: "otamatea" <otamatea@clear.net.nz>
    * Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:06:40 +1300

 otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
 otamatea@clear.net.nz
 From: mailto:otamatea@clear.net.nz

 I am involved as a founder member of a permaculture eco-village on the
 north island of new zealand, being developed on a 251 acre peninsula. 
We
 plan to be fifteen families having 5 acres each, plus 175 acres of
common
 land.  We are holding our first course there in March and April - a
 Permaculture Design Course for intending residents.  I would like to
hear
 from others going through the process of connecting through
permaculture,
 and forming communities.  Namaste, Lynne Hindle

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<LI><em>Subject</em>: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ</LI>
<LI><em>From</em>: "otamatea" &lt;<A HREF="mailto:otamatea@clear.net.nz">otamatea@clear.net.nz</A>&gt;</LI>
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<PRE>
otamatea@clear.net.nz
I am involved as a founder member of a permaculture eco-village on the
north island of new zealand, being developed on a 251 acre peninsula.  We
plan to be fifteen families having 5 acres each, plus 175 acres of common
land.  We are holding our first course there in March and April - a
Permaculture Design Course for intending residents.  I would like to hear
from others going through the process of connecting through permaculture,
and forming communities.  Namaste, Lynne Hindle

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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Feb 26 12:32:49 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: otamatea@clear.net.nz, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
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A few thoughts on community and PC.
I've lived in several group living situation including one ecovillage.  I
have a few hard and fast rules for sucess.
1. Work is the basis of trust, not lofty retoric, not promises or ideology.
Working side by side for a shared goal is the greatest of all comunity
building activities.
2. Sharing goals is essential.  Thre will most asuradly be folks in your
orginization who are more knowledgable than others.  They can be tremendous
helps to development BUT they can also induse disastrous divisivness if they
act as arrogant bosses trying to dictate the groups course of development
based on their "authority".  There is a fine line to walk here; It is much
more efficent to deligate responsibility to individuals or small design
groups rather than trying to design/implement by committee, yet on the other
hand resentments may build if a portion of your group becomes viewed as
autocratic.  Open sharing of progress and thinking and ideas is critical to
ballancing these tensions, and a good facilitator who can calm dow
disagreements will help dramatically.  You may avoid some of these problems
with your public and private space model.
3. Make sure you get together for fun things too!  Eat at least 3 meals a
week together, have parties and go on outings!   If all the group does
together is work, then getting together may start to take on a negitive
connotation.
You may want to get a copy of the Directory of Intentional Comunities if you
don't already have it.  Though primarily geared toward American comunities,
it has many articals on group process and development that WILL save time
and heart ache.  THERE IS NO NEED TO REINVENT THE WHEEL HERE!   Try to find
an established and stable community to advise you, it is much simpler to
start these projects with someone elses basic documents and methods rather
than try to make it all up yourself.  These start ups require too much work
to redo things already worked out by others.  Good luck! Your goals are
laudable and the cosmose really is on your side (most days anyway).
Mark

10:15 AM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>* To: <rural@sunsite.unc.edu>
>    * Subject: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
>    * From: "otamatea" <otamatea@clear.net.nz>
>    * Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:06:40 +1300
>
> otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ
> otamatea@clear.net.nz
> From: mailto:otamatea@clear.net.nz
>
> I am involved as a founder member of a permaculture eco-village on the
> north island of new zealand, being developed on a 251 acre peninsula. 
>We
> plan to be fifteen families having 5 acres each, plus 175 acres of
>common
> land.  We are holding our first course there in March and April - a
> Permaculture Design Course for intending residents.  I would like to
>hear
> from others going through the process of connecting through
>permaculture,
> and forming communities.  Namaste, Lynne Hindle
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><LI><em>Subject</em>: otamatea eco-village, kaiwaka, NZ</LI>
><LI><em>From</em>: "otamatea" &lt;<A
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>otamatea@clear.net.nz
>I am involved as a founder member of a permaculture eco-village on the
>north island of new zealand, being developed on a 251 acre peninsula.  We
>plan to be fifteen families having 5 acres each, plus 175 acres of common
>land.  We are holding our first course there in March and April - a
>Permaculture Design Course for intending residents.  I would like to hear
>from others going through the process of connecting through permaculture,
>and forming communities.  Namaste, Lynne Hindle
>
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From london@nuteknet.com  Wed Feb 26 20:39:23 1997
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-- 
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-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
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http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
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<H2>QUESTIONS & ANSWERS</h2>
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<b>Ask a Doctor<br>
By Richard Tipperman, M.D.</b>
<br><p>

<H3>From The National EMS Network Newsletter<br>
Fall 1996  Vol. 6 No. 4</H3>

<b>Q:</b>  Are there any reported eye problems associated with EMS or common to it for which we should ask our ophthalmologists to look, 
even if we are not aware of having problems or symptoms?<br><p>
<b>A:</b>  Because many patients with EMS are on steroids, or have taken steroids in the past, they should be evaluated yearly both for cataracts and glaucoma. 
Prolonged steroid use can induce glaucoma in some patients. This can be treated with topical medication or with cessation of the steroids. 
Prolonged steroid use can also lead to formation of cataracts. If the patient has a cataract but no symptoms, in terms of decreased vision, 
they are best off avoiding surgery. Cataract surgery is only indicated when vision is decreased. As noted earlier in a previous newsletter, 
the most common eye problem seen in patients with EMS is dry eye syndrome. However, in these situations, if the patient has a significant dry eye problem, 
symptoms would be as outlined in a prior newsletter.<br><p>

<b>Q:</b>  Though I have routine eye exams (esp. since I’ve started using Plaquenil) and keep my lenses in good repair (soft contact lenses because I am extremely myopic), 
my vision fluctuates throughout the day, and I seem to be able to see either close up or far away, but am not able to go back and forth very well. 
At other times, one eye sees close up and the other far away.....whatever is going on and what contribution might EMS be making to this?<br><p>
<b>A:</b>  There are many potential causes for fluctuating vision. It is possible that some of your medications, or even the EMS itself, may be responsible for the fluctuating vision. 
I, however, would feel the most likely source of fluctuating vision is a variably dry tear film throughout the day which sometimes causes the contact lens to ride "tighter." 
As you may be aware, contact lenses normally "float" on the cornea (front surface of the eye) on a thin tear film. This tear film is primarily responsible for focusing of the contact lens. 
If the tear film  is  deficient or excessive, it will affect the focusing of the contact lens. Obviously then, as the tear film tends to fluctuate throughout the day, the vision will also fluctuate.
For my patients who have this problem, I usually recommend trying temporary punctal plugs and wearing contact lenses for a week to see if it improves the problem. 
No harm can be done with this approach and it is usually quite successful in resolving the problem.<br><p>

<b>Q:</b>  Something I heard on the radio brought up a question. Is there any general advice we should be given concerning vitamins and other food supplements, and particularly B vitamins 
(which I’m told are made similarly to L-tryptophan) and anti-oxidants, which are supposed to protect the immune system? And are there vitamins that might cause harm to vision or enhance it, in your opinion, and in what daily dosages?<br><p>
<b>A:</b>  The role of vitamin supplements for the health of the eye is quite controversial. There certainly is good data to support the concept that routine doses of vitamin supplements will not have any harmful effect on the eye or vision. 
Whether or not increased doses of certain vitamin therapies can help to improve the health of normal eyes is much less clear. Currently, a tremendous amount of research is being done on vitamin 
therapy for patients with age-related macular disease and retinitis pigmentosa. I do not know of any studies specifically examining the role of vitamin therapy in patients with EMS and eye problems. 
I would reassure all patients with EMS, however, that standard doses of vitamin supplements should not have any harmful effect on their eyes.<br><p>

<b>(C) 1996 Richard Tipperman, MD</b><br><p>

<hr size=4>

<H3>From The National EMS Network Newsletter<br>
Summer 1996  Vol. 6 No. 3</H3>

<b>Q:</b>  Some people with EMS also have Sjogren’s syndrome. How do you distinguish the dry eye syndrome of EMS from that of Sjogren’s syndrome?<br><p>
<b>A:</b>  Sjogren’s syndrome is the name given to a condition where people have both a dry mouth and dry eyes. It is often seen in patients with collagenvascular and rheumatologic illnesses. The treatment of the dry eye component of Sjogren’s syndrome is no different than the treatment of normal dry eye syndrome; however, patients with Sjogren’s syndrome often have a more severe form of dry eye syndrome.<br><p>

<b>Q:</b>  Many EMS patients have used prednisone & some still use it.  How can it affect vision & what can be done to treat the vision changes?<br><p>
<b>A:</b>  Prednisone can cause patients to develop both cataracts and glaucoma. However, many patients can take steroids for indefinitely without developing either of these problems. Patients who are taking chronic steroids should have a complete eye examination once a year to check for both cataract formation and glaucoma.
If glaucoma (elevated pressure within the eye) is diagnosed, then it is best to stop the steroids if this can be done. Once the steroids are discontinued, the glaucoma will resolve. If the steroids cannot be discontinued, then eye drops can be used to treat the glaucoma. Cataracts can form while patients are taking steroids or even after the steroids have been discontinued. They will typically cause
blurred vision. Steroid induced cataracts are treated exactly the same as regular cataracts. If the vision becomes blurred enough that it is interfering with patients day to day activities, then cataract surgery is often indicated. Once cataract surgery has been performed, then there is no longer any risk of cataract formation in the operated eye from the steroids.<br><p>

<b>Q:</b>  At least a few EMS patients have developed neuropathy of the optic nerve. What is this and what can be done for it?
<b>A:</b>  An optic neuropathy is a term used to describe a dysfunction of the optic nerve. Once the optic nerve stops working properly then the vision can be abnormal. One common cause of optic neuropathy is toxic optic neuropathy wherein a chemical compound can cause the optic nerve to stop working properly. Many people are familiar with the loss of vision which occurs if a person drinks rubbing alcohol instead of the alcohol
(ethanol) normally found in alcoholic beverages.
In EMS the cause of the optic neuropathy is unclear but it is likely related to the toxin which produces all of the systemic problems. Unfortunately, there are no effective treatments for toxic optic neuropathy. Patients with this condition should have a thorough ophthalmic evaluation to be sure that they do not have a treatable form of optic neuropathy. In addition a thorough review of all medications taken should be 
performed since some prescription medications can produce a toxic optic neuropathy.<br><p>

<b>(C) 1996 Richard Tipperman, MD</b><br><p>

<b>[Each person should seek the advice of their own medical professional for their own situation. The information contained in this feature is of a general nature.]</b>

<br><p>
<hr size=6>
Please mail questions to: Newsletter Editor, PO Box 515, Dumfries, VA 22026. 
Or send them by e-mail to: <A HREF="mailto:Faith@nemsn.org">Faith Rumph</a><br><p>

<b>Questions will be forwarded to the doctors who will answer whatever questions they think best for each issue of the newsletter. No personal responses can be given. Thanks for your interest!</b>

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From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar  3 12:36:02 1997
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From: Rebbry@aol.com
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I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas and have a gunite inground pool.  Every
summer I cringe at the amount of chemicals I have to put into the pool (and
back flush into my yard!).  I'd rather use it for rainwater harvesting and
fish production if there was some way to keep it clean enough to still swim
in.  Have anyone tried such a conversion or have any ideas about how to do
it?  Thanks, Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar  3 12:54:19 1997
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From: "Charland, Stacy" <CHARLANS@gm1.nigms.nih.gov>
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Rebecca,

I hope you pass on any responses that aren't posted to the list, I'd be 
interested as well.

My husband would like a lap pool, but I too hate the thought of all the 
chemicals (and effort) that would be required to keep it up.

A few years ago we "built" a small ornamental pond in our backyard at a 
previous house, and although it had some Koi and water plants, the water 
stayed crystal clear with the use of a biological filter.  Supposedly a 
larger pond (ours was only about 4X8, 2 foot deep) can become 
self-sustaining and not need filters and such, but you will have algae, 
mud, plants, etc to "filter" the water for you.  So how clean does it have 
to be to swim in?  Many folks swim in ponds and lakes...


Stacy


-----Original Message-----
From:	Rebbry@aol.com [SMTP:Rebbry@aol.com]
Sent:	Monday, March 03, 1997 12:33 PM
To:	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject:	Query

I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas and have a gunite inground pool.  Every
summer I cringe at the amount of chemicals I have to put into the pool 
(and
back flush into my yard!).  I'd rather use it for rainwater harvesting and
fish production if there was some way to keep it clean enough to still 
swim
in.  Have anyone tried such a conversion or have any ideas about how to do
it?  Thanks, Rebecca Bryant


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar  3 13:56:00 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Converting a pool to a pond
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At 12:26 PM 2/28/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I live in Fayetteville, Arkansas and have a gunite inground pool.  Every
>summer I cringe at the amount of chemicals I have to put into the pool (and
>back flush into my yard!).  I'd rather use it for rainwater harvesting and
>fish production if there was some way to keep it clean enough to still swim
>in.  Have anyone tried such a conversion or have any ideas about how to do
>it?  Thanks, Rebecca Bryant
>
Hi Rebecca, a fine goal, and a few thoughts,
The way ponds stay clean is to convert the excess N and P in solution to
plants.  A "dirty" pond is usually clouded with algae or possibly bacteria
exploding in population due to a algae die off.  Your best bet for a clean
natural pond is to limit the algae growth by growing some type of agressive
vascular plants.  Floating plants are great for this, and water hyacynth is
probably the king here, but its highly invasive in your subtropical setting
and may be illegal to posses in your area.  Many of the other floaters like
the duckweeds (lemna sp.)  will be unpopular with swimmers as they will coat
you with tiny little leaves as you emerge from your dip.  If you are willing
to add a layer of washed sand to the bottom of the pool you could add rooted
plants to the mix.  I would not add pond mucks or fine soils as they will
almost certianly lead to turbid water and increase the fertility level of
the water.
Another approach could be the construction of a "living Machine" where your
exising pool filter pump gets diverted through a series of artificial
wetlands, allowing the plants and filter feeding animals therein to do the
scrubbbing for you.  This has been proven highly effective by the Earth
Island Institute (in Boston MA I think) in sewage treatment, so your needsa
can almost certianly be met.
The inclusion of filtering animals (clams, daphnia etc) will help reduce
cloudy waters greatly.  In the Great Lakes, the unfortunate outbreak of
Zebra Mussels has cleared the water in many areas to near pre europeon
settlement levels ( but don't put those in your pond OK?).  I would also
include some kind of agressive surface feeding fish to control mosquitos
(like the misquito fish - Gambusia Sp).  
Remenber to consider that each bit of food you add will increase the N load
in the pond and that removal of plants and animals will reduce it.  You may
find that you can harves a lot of biomass from the hyasynth plants for
mulching.   If you have both floating and rooted plants, keep the surface
cleared off somewhat to allow loght penatration.  Keep in mind the need for
Oxygen in the water which disoloves in from the surface, and don't overstock
with fishes.  Warmer water has less ability to absorb oxygen, so plan your
harvest appropriately.  Agitation or areation will help keep O levels up, as
will plants to some extent.
Consider where your selected fish species will feed.  Bottom feeders may
make a horible mess of the water by churning the bottom while top feeders
may eat all the mosquito fishes.  Consider establishing a good base of food
species before adding the fish you plan to eat.
Last but not least, consider much of what I say here suspect and talk to
your local extension and university folks if possibe to confirm my
ramblings.  ;<)
Mark

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar  3 15:17:18 1997
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From: Milogic@aol.com
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Fayetteville AR USA
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Rebecca and others,

In Fayetteville AR USA there exists one of the finest resources for rural
information in the world: ATTRA--Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural
Areas, P. O. Box 3657, Fayetteville AR 72702 USA 1-800-346-9140,
501-442-9824, 501-442-9842. ATTRA is connected with University of Arkansas. 

Steve Driver is one of their resource people. He has been in India and may be
back by now. STEVED@ncatfyv.uark.edu. Call the 800 number with a question.
Whoever responds with volumes of information will also give you an e-mail
address.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Mar  3 18:12:05 1997
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From: djfuller@juno.com (by way of David Fuller <sol3az@igc.apc.org>)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Black Mesa Permaculture Project Workshop
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BLACK MESA PERMACULTURE PROJECT (BMPP) Will be holding its 6th annual
certified drylands permaculture intensive design course on the
Navajo/Hopi reservation  May 24 - June 1, 1997. 

 BMPP is a project of Indigenous People living on reservation lands on
the Black Mesa in Northeastern Arizona.  We provide hands-on education
by developing working permaculture models, by implementing and
monitoring projects, by giving workshops and demonstrations, and by by
providing support and networking services.  We work with, and offer
services to, other Indigenous People interested in land restoration,
agriculture and sustainability in response to rapidly growing interest. 
We are building working relationships with the Native American Farmers
Association (TNAFA), the American Indian Science and Engineering Society
(AISES), and the Society for Ecological Restoration (SER) among others.  

The course is free to Native Americans and is open to others for $250.  

For more info contact: Justin Willy, PO Box 5350, Leupp, AZ  86035 USA

 Phone (520) 526-6680

Email to David Fuller at djfuller@juno.com


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 10:00:16 1997
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From: j.cropper@trinidad.net (john cropper)
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Subject: request for info/links on tropical urban permaculture systems
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Can anyone help me to locate information on urban permaculture systems in
situations roughly similar to mine. They are: 
- 12 degrees north of the equator
- 1500 - 1800mm (60-70in) rainfall
- 15 degree and more slopes
- 400 - 800 sq m (4000-8000sq ft) plots of land, including the house
- acid, eroded soils

We are starting work with two communities of urban squatters, and would like
to be in contact with anyone who has worked or is working in similar situations.

I am particularly interested to find out what levels of sustained yield have
been obtained.

I'd also like to hear from anyone interested in collaborating on designs, or
on incorporating these  features into permaculture design courses for
students with an interest in or knowledge of tropical conditions.

For more information on the background to the programme you can visit the
new web site of the Sustainable Economic Development Unit of the University
of the West Indies <http://www.tidco.co.tt/seduweb/home.htm> or write to me
directly.

Thanks in advance

John Cropper

j.cropper@trinidad.net

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 10:02:12 1997
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Thanks, Milo, for putting ATTRA's name out there.  

As a matter of fact, Steve Diver and quite a few of the ATTRA folks have swum
in this particular pool.  Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 10:02:08 1997
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Stacy, the proposals have been varied, and at this point I haven't a clue
about which direction to take but will try to keep the list posted.  Rebecca
Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 11:31:46 1997
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From: Steve Diver <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Back from India; Back on-line 
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Greetings fellow permanent culture advocates:

After a 2-month trip to India to study agriculture/permaculture,
I am back in the Ozarks and slowly returning to Western-style 
living which now includes email. 

The mental shift from Eastern mind and village living to 
Western mind and industrial living perhaps never
re-integrates the way it was before...this perspective helps 
you see thins in a new light, and hopefully you can retain 
some of this and act and speak in new and positive ways. 

Permaculture is a historical fact in India, which parallels
China in terms of thousands of years of permanent
agriculture = permanent culture.  

However, permanent culture in modern India is struggling...
as it is across the world but especially in the two-thirds
world which has suffered dominant cultural invasions and 
consequent extraction of resources, coupled with population
explosions, and so many other complex factors.  

As time allows, I will post a selection of resources 
such as books and networks in India that I came aross and 
found useful. 

The Permaculture FAQ is due for a Spring update.  If
you have any revisions or additions, please send them to my
new email address: 

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, AR
steved@ncatark.uark.edu


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 12:09:51 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re:whats a FAQ?
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>The Permaculture FAQ is due for a Spring update.  If
>you have any revisions or additions, please send them to my
>new email address: 
>
>Steve Diver
>Fayetteville, AR
>steved@ncatark.uark.edu
>
Steve...
Pardon my ignorance, but what's a FAQ, and how does one update it?
Mark

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 13:07:52 1997
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From: David Fuller <sol3az@igc.apc.org>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Black Mesa Permaculture Workshop
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BLACK MESA PERMACULTURE PROJECT (BMPP) Will be holding its 6th annual
certified drylands permaculture intensive design course on the
Navajo/Hopi reservation  May 24 - June 1, 1997. 

 BMPP is a project of Indigenous People living on reservation lands on
the Black Mesa in Northeastern Arizona.  We provide hands-on education
by developing working permaculture models, by implementing and
monitoring projects, by giving workshops and demonstrations, and by by
providing support and networking services.  We work with, and offer
services to, other Indigenous People interested in land restoration,
agriculture and sustainability in response to rapidly growing interest. 
We are building working relationships with the Native American Farmers
Association (TNAFA), the American Indian Science and Engineering Society
(AISES), and the Society for Ecological Restoration (SER) among others.  

The course is free to Native Americans and is open to others for $250.  

For more info contact: Justin Willy, PO Box 5350, Leupp, AZ  86035 USA

Phone (520) 526-6680

Email to David Fuller at djfuller@juno.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 13:28:50 1997
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
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Rebecca, Stacy,
I lived on land with some friends who had a swimming pool they
naturalized...It had some nice seaweed-type water plant growing in it..I
wish I knew what it was..When the seaweed grew too thickly we would harvest
it by getting in and pulling it up with our feet and it was wonderful as a
mulch and in the compost.  There were fish in the pool and little frogs and
since the folks ran a children's camp, the pool was used for swimmng
regularly.  The water was very clear primarily because it was spring fed and
used as the irrigation source for several gardens..We would simply open up
the overflow valve and water would flow where we directed it.  It was
beautiful and refreshing to swim in and, of course, the ideal situation in
that it was fed by a fresh spring. The prolific plants growing in it was at
first a problem but once we found a use for it, it became a great asset. 
Vicki Garland


>
>

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 15:19:25 1997
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From: Milogic@aol.com
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Subject: Re: whats a FAQ?
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Frequently Asked Questions = FAQ. A way to answer frequently asked questions
without having to reply individually to the posting. 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar  4 20:42:38 1997
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To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: whats a FAQ?
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The answer to this question can be found in the FAQ..........?

At 03:17 PM 3/4/97 -0500, Milogic@aol.com wrote:
>Frequently Asked Questions = FAQ. A way to answer frequently asked questions
>without having to reply individually to the posting. 
>
>

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Mar  7 18:39:44 1997
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From: Rebbry@aol.com
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Subject: Affordable Permaculture Workshop in the Ozarks
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Ozark CoHousing in Fayetteville, Arkansas is sponsoring a introductory
permaculture workshop May 9-May 11.  The fee is $95 and the workshop is
limited to the first 35 registrants.  

The presenter is Patricia Michael, a social and environmental activist,
designer, lecturer and educator who studied permaculture with Bill Mollison
in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Central America and the U.S.  Ms. Michael
is a Vice-Chancellor of the International Permaculture Academy at Tyalgum,
Australia and resides in Austin, Texas.

Participants can expect to get the following out of the workshop: a basic
understanding of permaculture; design tools and ways to apply them to your
home or farm; an ability to analyze a site for best use of natural resources,
buildings and energy; slides and stories of permaculture from around the
world; and a fun hands-on experience with other cool people!

For additional information contact Karen McSpadden-- kmcs@aol.com or by phone
at 501.973.0157

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Mar  7 18:53:01 1997
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Ozark CoHousing in Fayetteville, Arkansas is sponsoring a introductory
permaculture workshop May 9-May 11.  The fee is $95 and the workshop is
limited to the first 35 registrants.  

The presenter is Patricia Michael, a social and environmental activist,
designer, lecturer and educator who studied permaculture with Bill Mollison
in Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Central America and the U.S.  Ms. Michael
is a Vice-Chancellor of the International Permaculture Academy at Tyalgum,
Australia and resides in Austin, Texas.

Participants can expect to get the following out of the workshop: a basic
understanding of permaculture; design tools and ways to apply them to your
home or farm; an ability to analyze a site for best use of natural resources,
buildings and energy; slides and stories of permaculture from around the
world; and a fun hands-on experience with other cool people!

For additional information contact Karen McSpadden-- kmcs@aol.com or by phone
at 501.973.0157

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Mar 11 11:33:38 1997
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From: Steve Diver <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos->Nature Farming
In-Reply-To: <v01540b03af4afa2f0329@[193.130.254.103]> from "Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine" at Mar 11, 97 02:37:49 pm
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To Maddy and the Permaculture List, 

Due to a post I made to sanet-mg a few months ago, there 
is some confusion about this video.  I said that NFRDC is
the source of "Life in the Soil", but this it turns out,
is incorrect. 

As a background, there are two Japan-based organizations
advocating Nature Farming, each with counterpart efforts in the 
United States.  Each organization is based on the teachings 
of Mokichi Okada, yet due to internal developments there are
now two groups.  

MOA Nature Farming is tied to the Mokochi Okada Association
in Japan, which in turn, is a sponsor of the World Sustainable
Agriculture Association in various locations.  MOA/WSAA have a 
video titled "Life in the Soil" which sells for $50.  

Kyusei Nature Farming is tied to Sekai Kyusei Kyo in Japan,
which in turn is associated with Johrei Fellowship in
various locations and NaturFarm and NFRDC in Lompoc, California.  
NFRDC has a video titled "The Living Soil" which sells for $20. 

In addition, the NFRDC in Lompoc, CA, sells proceedings from
three International Conferences on Kyusei Nature Farming.
The first two are $5 each, and the third is $20.  The
proceedings document the use of Effective Microorganisms in
Kyusei Nature Farming, as well as provide background
information on nature farming in general.  

In regards to the subject line which says "Fukuoka Videos".
This is a complete misunderstanding; there are no references 
to or footage of Masanobu Fukuoka.  Fukuoka's vision of natural
farming focuses on no-tillage, etc, and was developed
independently of MOA and Kyusei Nature Farming.  

The "Life in the Soil" video uses root mycorrhizotron photography
to capture underground images of microbial life in the soil,
the root rhizosphere, and organic matter decay.  These are compared to
above-ground farming practices which are beneficical to soil
life, such as green manuring, crop rotations, composting,
proper tillage, etc.  These are tractor-based farming practices 
used by MOA and Kyusei nature farmers.  

Hope this is helpful, below are some key contacts.

Steve Diver
 

Contacts for MOA Nature Farming: 

Mokichi Okada Association (MOA)
c/o Pacific Cultural Center
1835 Vancouver Drive        
Honolulu, HI  96822
      or  
3510 Nuuanu Pali Dr.
Honolulu, HI  96817
Tel:	808-595-6344
Fax:	808-595-8014 

MOA International
http://www.moa.or.jp

MOA Nature Farming
http://www.moa.or.jp/english/naturefarm/nf-contents.html

World Sustainable Agriculture Association
8554 Melrose Ave
West Hollywood, CA  90069
Tel:  	310-657-7202
Fax:	310-657-3884
Email:	Wsaala@igc.apc.org
Web:	http://www.igc.org/wsaala/wsaa.html


Contacts for Kyusei Nature Farming: 

Nature Farm Research and Development Foundation
6495 Santa Rosa Road
Lompoc, CA  93436
Tel:  805-737-1536
Fax:  805-736-9599

Nature Farming International Research and Development Ctr
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/jino.html

Nature Farming 
http://www.saitam-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/naturefarm.html



> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
> Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
> is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
> (NFRDC) in
> Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
> Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
> the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
> NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks very much,
> Maddy
> 
> Permaculture Magazine
> Hyden House Ltd.
> Little Hyden Lane
> Clanfield
> Hampshire PO8 URU
> Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
> Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
> email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
> Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
> Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
> videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.
 
 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Mar 12 08:41:31 1997
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From: permaculture@gn.apc.org (Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos->Nature Farming
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Dear Steve,

Thank you for clarifying the video mystery. People kept requesting a
'Fukuoka Video' from us and I now I understand the source of the confusion!
Best wishes,
Maddy Harland

Maddy Harland, Editor
Permaculture Magazine
Hyden House Ltd.
Little Hyden Lane
Clanfield
Hampshire PO8 URU
Tel: +44 (0)1705 596500
Fax: +44 (0)1705 595834
email: permaculture@gn.apc.org
Website: http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Publishers of the Earth Repair Catalogue - over 230 books, publications and
videos on all aspect of sustainable living by email or snail mail.


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Mar 13 21:40:31 1997
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Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 17:58:55 +0900
From: Kenkichi Muramatsu <nexus@unisql.saitama-j.or.jp>
To: permaculture@gn.apc.org, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Fukuoka Videos

At 11:37 PM 97.3.11, Maddy Harland - Permaculture Magazine wrote:
> I am looking for the video, "Life in the Soil", by the Mokichi Okada
> Association and Sakura Motion Picture Company in Japan. I am aware that it
> is available from  Nature Farming Research and Development Foundation
> (NFRDC) in
> Lompoc, California. I have faxed them a couple of times and asked for the
> Japanese fax no/email (anything!) and have had no reply. Does anyone have
> the full address of the Japanese company or the email address for the
> NFRDC? Any help would be appreciated.
Hi
The address of Nature Farming Research and Development Center is as follows;
P.O. Box 26, Atami-city  Zip 413-91
Shizuoka Japan
Tel: +81-557-81-0567  Fax: +81-557-81-0560
More information, please visit Website
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/naturefarm.html
-----
Kenkichi Muramatsu
e-mail: info@nexus-i.com, nexus@saitama-j.or.jp
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/index.html



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar 17 15:03:48 1997
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From: Rebbry@aol.com
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Subject: Ozark Challenges
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The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Mar 17 15:12:46 1997
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Subject: Ozark Challenges
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The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar 17 16:20:51 1997
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From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
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At 03:02 PM 3/17/97 -0500, Rebbry@aol.com wrote:
>The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
>confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
>grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
>chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
>any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
>from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
>fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
>folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant

I had horrible Bermuda grass in a community garden plot once, and yes,
eventually I think it *will* sneak back in.  However...I managed to reduce
the amount of work necessary to control it to a manageable level with the
following two techniques:

1)  I, like you, buried 8" wide aluminum flashing all around the garden.
Back-breaking work, especially in a southern California summer when the
ground was hard as the proverbial rocks.  But this kept 90%+ of it outside
the garden.  (And I had to use the aluminum flashing; my first trial was
with 4" bender board, which the Bermuda grass merely laughed at and
shouldered aside.)

2)  Inside the garden, I used a Hula Hoe (aka scuffle hoe) to cut the stuff
off below the surface, and I pulled it all out & discarded it.  (DON'T
compost it!)  This tool let me get through a 20x30' garden plot in a
workable amount of time.  It took a while for me to get through the entire
plot, but I'd concentrate on one section for a while, then go back & clean
up already "cleared" areas.  The Hula Hoe lets you clear a good-sized area
per unit of time.  Clearing it from around established plants is a bit
tough...sometimes you have to just control it until you harvest whatever it
is, then attack it when those plants come out.

Once I'd done both of these, the amount of remaining work wasn't
bad...dealing with the occasional stolon sprouting in the garden, that I'd
missed with the Hula Hoe, and making the occasional foray around the entire
border of the bed to pick up anything that was trying to sneak under.

There's probably a secret Permaculture technique for turning Bermuda grass
into a cash crop, but I don't know what it is.

I have very little experience with ticks, so can't help there.

Good luck...if I could singlehandedly outlaw the selling of Bermuda grass by
nurseries, I would.

Loren
--
Loren Davidson      
loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"If war is the violent resolution of conflict, then peace is not the absence
of conflict, but rather, the ability to resolve conflict without violence."
    -- C.T. Butler, "A Guide to Formal Consensus", http://www.ic.org/pnp/ocac/

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar 17 17:10:54 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
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At 01:18 PM 3/17/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 03:02 PM 3/17/97 -0500, Rebbry@aol.com wrote:
>>The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
>>confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
>>grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
>>chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
>>any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
>>from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
>>fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.  
Snip
>
>1)  I, like you, buried 8" wide aluminum flashing all around the garden.
>Back-breaking work, especially in a southern California summer when the
>ground was hard as the proverbial rocks.  But this kept 90%+ of it outside
>the garden.  (And I had to use the aluminum flashing; my first trial was
>with 4" bender board, which the Bermuda grass merely laughed at and
>shouldered aside.)
>

>
>There's probably a secret Permaculture technique for turning Bermuda grass
>into a cash crop, but I don't know what it is.
>
>I have very little experience with ticks, so can't help there.
>
>Good luck...if I could singlehandedly outlaw the selling of Bermuda grass by
>nurseries, I would.
>
>Loren
>--
>Loren Davidson      

Folks,
Here in the midwest our constant garden foe is quack grass.  It has a
similar root system, though it's a cool season grass and starts early in the
season where I suppose the bermuda grass is more a summer menace.  Any how,
some friends have had good luck allowing pigs to root it out and following
up with a cover crop of rye or buckwheat.  By shifting your graden space
around you should be able to stay ahead of much of it while getting next
year's plot ready.  I find a lot of the trouble stems from our efforts to
clear our garden beds of roots while ignoring the paths.  If the pigs were
allowed to clean up the path areas (or if you did it) you might have longer
term sucess.
We also have a lot of ticks and have tried burning the grass and then
following with poultry.  The problem is that there are so many other things
to eat for them that the ticks just aren't attractive enough to really take
a hit.  Burning near the house is a little nerve racking too, and seems to
be of limited effectiveness.  My sugestion?  Daily naked inspections with
someone you love (or at least a tall mirror)  ;<)
Mark Ludwig
Student - UW School for Beginning Dairy Farmers
King of the weed pullers -  Otter Creek Organic Farm
Grains, beef, compost and ?

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar 17 17:12:20 1997
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Grasses are our friends
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> At 03:02 PM 3/17/97 -0500, Rebbry@aol.com wrote:

 As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> >from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> >fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> >folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant



Rebecca, you take your potatoe fork & you bend over dig em out.  Havent
found anything else that work.  We have quack grass here, number one
invasive time consuming garden concern.  One control that Ive been
interested in trying is making a tea out of diseased quackgrass &
spraying it on healthy plants.  Might be worth a try with bermuda as
well. 


Loren Davidson wrote:
> 
> There's probably a secret Permaculture technique for turning Bermuda grass
> into a cash crop, but I don't know what it is.


Joe Hollis told us that quackgrass rhizomes are selling for $50/lb.
Hmmm?


Miekal

-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
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e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Mar 17 17:24:10 1997
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Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
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Bermuda Grass is a distinct challenge. The chemicals supposed to control it
do more harm that good. I don't really know any way to control it but to pay
attention to trimming, cutting it really close to catch the runners.
Thatching it every year or so. 

However, From a permaculture perspective, a really heavy sheet mulching on
top of cardboard, and newspaper--then about a foot of dense mulching
materials like lots of chipping stuff heavy with redwood, cedar, pine--other
aromatics and then layers of straw not hay, especially not hay. If you can
get rice, wheat, oats - the more the merrier. Make it damp as you build it up
and keep it damp if you can. Let the sun do its work. Stand back for a couple
of years. I like to scatter wheat seeds on top along with other grains plus
some wildflowers too. Favas love the whole business and add their good stuff
into what becomes a fertile wonderland with bermuda way down in the bottom.

The more main line folks will cover it with a heavy guage black plastic and
let it sit for a year or so. Gas it to death, I suppose.

For the really ambitious, dig  it out to at least 18 inches and get every bit
out before burning it--yes, burning it. The ashes then can be added back to
your compost pile. Waste not, want not.

Ticks? I try to live where they aren't. Hard to be friendly with ticks.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 18 07:56:05 1997
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
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        permaculture@envirolink.org
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Internships in Permaculture

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have created openings for two interns at our
newly-acquired facilities in central Florida.  We seek people with vision,
self-motivation, and balanced senses of adventure and boundaries.  Work will
include both office work for our publishing and teaching activities and
outdoor work as we create a permaculture design for our own place.  Specific
tasks will be balanced between routine work and projects for which the intern
takes primary responsibility. Duration of programs is negotiable though we
prefer a potential period of one year or more. With enough time, interns can
develop profit-sharing enterprises using our resource base.

Arrangements can be made for suitable interns to reside on site as our
guests.  There will be the opportunity for each intern to develop a personal
garden area, if s/he desires, to manage in any way consistent with ecological
responsibility and organic practices.  Simple vegetarian basics and cooking
facilities can be provided. (Meat eaters are welcome--we just don't want to
pay for it.  There may be surplus fish and game.)
Tobacco smokers will not be considered because of plant diseases carried on
tobacco and its smoke.  No drugs or illegal substances of any kind are
acceptable here.

There is also opportunity for select Permaculture Design Course graduates to
fill these slots as apprentices in our APT (Advanced Permaculture Training)
program.

For details, send a concise statement to us directly at the email or U.S.
mail address below.  Hardcopy inquiries should be typed and confined to one
page. Please confine email to about 500 words.  

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
permaculture training by email. Copyright, 1996, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O.
Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.
 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Mar 19 12:00:44 1997
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The one cover crop I planted that seems to do good here was fava beans.
Thanks for the tip Dan.  Now how do I harvest these fava beans  for seed
crop for next year.  Do I wait for them to dry ? My trees need N and favas
seem like a easy N fixer to grow here in the cool winter. What do fava
beans look like when you are picking for seed and what do they look like
when you are picking for eating and how do you eat them.   

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 19 12:03:16 1997
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The one cover crop I planted that seems to do good here was fava beans.
Thanks for the tip Dan.  Now how do I harvest these fava beans  for seed
crop for next year.  Do I wait for them to dry ? My trees need N and favas
seem like a easy N fixer to grow here in the cool winter. What do fava
beans look like when you are picking for seed and what do they look like
when you are picking for eating and how do you eat them.   

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Mar 19 12:11:40 1997
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From: Mark Ludwig <mpludwig@students.wisc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: re: Bermuda grass
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t.  
>
>Now if someone can tell me how to control bermuda grass when it goes aquatic
>it will be a fair swap.  In one pond that we have, it holds its own against
>water hyacinth(1) and in our canal is as serious a blockage as willow.  I'm
>betting on Asian water buffalo, but as they swim underwater they could be
>difficult to confine in places.  any ideas?
>
Dan, 
How about grass carp and dabbleing ducks?  Is this a confined area that you
could release the carp into without the wrath of the FL government comming
down on you?  I would think the combination of tasty treats for the bovine
and negitive expiriances with aligators might help keep the buffalo close to
home.  How do the Asians keep them home?
Mark Ludwig
Student - UW School for Beginning Dairy Farmers
King of the weed pullers -  Otter Creek Organic Farm
Grains, beef, compost and ?

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar 20 09:32:51 1997
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In a message dated 3/19/97 12:01:34 PM, sals@rain.org (sal schettino) wrote:

>The one cover crop I planted that seems to do good here was fava beans.
>Thanks for the tip Dan.  Now how do I harvest these fava beans  for seed
>crop for next year.  Do I wait for them to dry ? My trees need N and favas
>seem like a easy N fixer to grow here in the cool winter. What do fava
>beans look like when you are picking for seed and what do they look like
>when you are picking for eating and how do you eat them.   

Hi Sal:

Are you sure that you asked all the questions on your Mind?  :-)

Yes.  Like any other bean (these are really a vetch) you wait for them to
dry.  You can eat them green like green limas or dry, like dry limas.  If you
cut the plants off a half inch or so from the ground, sometimes they
resprout.  Cutting some species of legumes stimulates nodules to fix more
N--I don't know if this is true for favas but surely the more they put on new
vegetation the more they are likely to fix N. 

Somebody or other has a hot-weather fava, by the way.  Probably the
biointensive people in California.  

Fix favas like any bean or pea.  Boil 'em in a big mess, drain, and serve
with salt and butter is my favorite.  Black and dark-skinned people may be
sensitive to favas of they have the recessive gene for sickle-cell anemia.
 This gene also confers resistance to malaria, which is more serious from
evolution's point of view, so folks whose ancestors where in a hot, humid
climate long enough for a little evolution to take place are most likely to
have this gene.  However fair skin and blond hair is no guarantee that you
don't--people have been mixing stock since there were people and older
civilizations got around quite nicely, thank you, witout 747s.  It took a lot
longer, so they were more likely to get real horney away from home.  So eat a
few at first and back off if you have a bad reaction.  I don't recall the
symptoms--I don't get them, my dark-skinned anscestors that I know about were
from the "new world," though it seems to have been here, actually, as long as
the rest.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Mar 20 17:27:40 1997
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Try Native Seeds/Search in Tucson for desert happy favas and lots of other
dryland, highland happy peoples. Their fava grows voraciously in Berkeley CA,
too.

Native Seeds/Search
2509 N. Campbell Ave #325
Tucson AZ 85719
529 327-9123, 327-5821 fax

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar 20 17:31:46 1997
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Try Native Seeds/Search in Tucson for desert happy favas and lots of other
dryland, highland happy peoples. Their fava grows voraciously in Berkeley CA,
too.

Native Seeds/Search
2509 N. Campbell Ave #325
Tucson AZ 85719
529 327-9123, 327-5821 fax

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Mar 20 21:04:05 1997
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From: Sal Schettino <sals@rain.org>
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Thanks Dan for the Fava info.  Hope I get enough to plant twice as much
next year.




Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
or check out my homepage:            http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html    .


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Mar 20 21:06:30 1997
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Thanks Dan for the Fava info.  Hope I get enough to plant twice as much
next year.




Sal Schettino,Organic Farmer,don't panic eat organic,sals@rain.org
or check out my homepage:            http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html    .


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Mar 21 07:57:33 1997
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In a message dated 3/20/97 5:26:32 PM, Milogic wrote:

>Try Native Seeds/Search in Tucson for desert happy favas and lots of other
dryland,
>highland happy peoples. Their fava grows voraciously in Berkeley CA, too.
>
>Native Seeds/Search
>2509 N. Campbell Ave #325
>Tucson AZ 85719
>529 327-9123, 327-5821 fax
>
>Milo Clark


Amen.  they are good folk, who have done wonders to save species and
varieties cultivated by the Native American peoples of the region, including
hiring some folk to propagate seed using traditional methods.  So both the
seeds and the methods to which they co-evolved are preserved and there is not
so much pressure for drift away from the original adapted strains.  What they
have been able to save is amazing and the world is ever after to them in
debt, almost as much as to the people who domesticated and cultured these
seeds.  In the case of favas, these are not from the North
American/Mesoamerican region of course, but were introduced by the Spanish a
half millenium ago.  Their culture and development of adapted strains by
indigenous folk is testimony to the readiness by which people close to their
environment can integrate a new biotic factor.  You not only get full value +
some when you get seeds from Native Seeds/Search, you also stack functions,
adding just a little more to their ability to continue this important and, in
this case, very well executed work.

Lets have global applause for Native Seeds/Search.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Mar 22 13:34:09 1997
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From: SueCasson@aol.com
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Subject: in-form-a-tion (mulch)
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Hello from the drift plain in northern Illinois: 

I'd like to thank this list for inspiration and information over the winter
regarding no tilling, mulching and it's effect on the soil. I had (on the
faith of reading books) sheet mulched my garden last summer, and left it on
over the winter, much to the friendly amusement of my till-scrape-10-10-10
neighbors. I pulled no roots (except for the ones I ate of course) and left
the tops of the tomatoes etc. just be. Just threw some mulch over them. 

I pulled the mulch back on to the aisles this week to let the soil warm and
what did I behold...... black fluffy soil, self-seeding chervil, many of the
allium family popping up, yarrow, oregano, sage, tarragon, tansy, rue and the
other perennials safe as can be. (Local knowledge says p. herbs will not
overwinter.)

I planted several kinds of greens in one of the beds on a sunny 70 degree
mid-day. I knew that by night it would be 20-30 degrees, so I just popped
some mulch from the aisles over the herbs.

The birds are out there grubbing around for me. The worms are tilling for me.
And you'all are learnin' me. Now I have time, (since there is just not much
to do) to learn more, experiment more. Buckwheat really paid off last year
for soil tilth. I'm going to start a small handfull of seeds every week or
so, keep track of the temps, to see when I get germination. 

I also need to address inputs of mulch.  I used a combo of my oak leaves from
the site and slightly spoiled hay from off site mostly. Does anyone anyone
know about growing small amounts of alphalfa, like 100 square feet, or even
1000. (My garden is 4500 square feet, and I do share some of it with neighbor
children, who are learning to garden. There are three in my household to
feed, plus we always have extra to give away. One of my gardening partners (7
yrs) and I sell some of the extra at a weekly farmer's market, tho we end up
spending as much as we make and trading too. The payoff there is social. It's
just fun.  Is growing a small amount of hay worth it? I know I can get three
cuts off of it. How much hay would I get per/? And does it die at winter so I
don't have to till, or is it perennial?

Particular thanks to Jack Rowe, Dan H. of Elfin/Yankee PC, Mark Ludwig and
the Cross Timbers Home page.        - Sue

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Mar 25 12:24:47 1997
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Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant


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From: Steve Diver <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
In-Reply-To: <970317150013_-1605794387@emout06.mail.aol.com> from "Rebbry@aol.com" at Mar 17, 97 03:02:04 pm
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Bermudagrass is a serious deal.  It can destroy a 
good garden unless it is managed well. 

On several occasssions back in Oklahoma, I tried to 
hand dig a patch of bermuda lawn and pick through the 
rhizomes. After planting the garden, it failed unless there 
was systematic cultivation and removal of re-sprouts. 

If there was any slack in control of re-sprouts, the 
bermuda usually took back over.  

Here in Arkansas, I laid out 6 mil black plastic over a whole 
lawn area of bermudagrass, and left it there over 
the whole growing season.  It killed it dead.  

Not to waste the space, we grew melons on the plastic.  
Where the holes were cut in the plastic, bermuda came
through.  

Thus, smothering with plastic is a viable solution. 

But, if you are raising vegetables by plasticulture, 
be aware that it will poke through the transplant slots 
and be a major hassle. 

A heavy duty fabric weed barrier is identical to 
black plastic in the way it functions.   

It will smother bermuda if the piece is left intact or whole, 
but sprouts will reach for light it you cut holes for 
transplants. 

Thus, either plastic or fabric is an effective means 
if fallow is an option. 

Layers and layers of newspapers, followed by 6 inches 
of organic mulch will do the same thing as plastic or fabric.

I would not discount the use of Roundup herbicide for 
control of such things as bermuda, poison ivy, and 
japanese honeysuckle. 

Solarization with clear plastic mulch has been shown to 
work in southern regions (where the sun is intense). 

This involves tillage of the soil, followed by irrigation, 
followed by coverage of the whole patch with a huge piece of
clear plastic.  The solar rays catch underneath and heat the
soil to temperatures lethal to rhizomes etc.  This takes 
6-8 weeks.  

A double layer of plastic, or amendment with manure, 
have both been shown through research to increase the 
solarization effect and reduce the amount of time needed
to achieve lethal temperatures; i.e., 30 days instead of 
60 days. 

Tall, shade producing crops like corn, when combined with 
inter-rown tillage, are methods to weaken and suppress 
bermuda. 

I will never hand dig a bermuda lawn again.  I would use 
the no-till smother method.....whether plastic, fabric,
or organic.  

It is also important to keep a bermuda-free zone of 2-4 
feet away from the edge of your garden, if possible. 
Otherwise, it will creep back in and become a nuissance. 

steve diver

 
 
> The growing season is coming on-line, and I find myself once again
> confronting two of our eternal "challenges" in the Ozarks:  ticks and bermuda
> grass.  Now, I know some people say you can control ticks with guineas or
> chickens or ducks or geese, but I've never known anyone in real life who had
> any success with these techniques.  As for bermuda, I've tried everything
> from Round-up to buried flashing to digging out beds and laying landscape
> fabric down first.  Eventually, bermuda snakes its way in.   How are you
> folks dealing with these challenges?  Rebecca Bryant


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Wed Mar 26 09:50:03 1997
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Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
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Spreading plastic all over the ground is spreading chemicals all over the
ground.  Plastic is not stable, but photodecays and spontaneously decays,
depending on the kind of plastic, etc.  Volatiles get into the ground.  In my
view, this practice is hostile to permaculture.  I know that serious
permaculturists disagree--I'
m responding to such a viewipoint.  My purpose is to state a viewpoint that
needs expression, not start a flame war or even a debate.

The facts are obvious.  People will opt for the convenience of plastic or for
a more conservative definition of permaculture.  That's a pretty clear
choice.  There is no missing or hidden information needed to make it.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Mar 28 18:41:07 1997
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From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, Elfpermacl@aol.com
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
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A few observations on sheet mulching, as a follow-up to Ozark 
Challenges and the control of bermudagrass: 

The permaculture way is to go with current energy (i.e., renewable 
rather than fossil fuel), to reduce pollution, to avoid toxics, and to 
use organic and biological resources as much as possible. 

In this context, plastic is a poor choice as a sheet mulch in 
comparison to an organic sheet mulch system based on layers of newspaper 
or cardboard topped with leaves, straw, or hay.  Thus, I think it 
was helpful to get that message from Dan Hemmenway about permaculture 
and plastic (attached below). 

Taking into account where people are on the scale of permanance, 
I also think it appropriate to present a number of non-chemical or 
low-input options and let people work within the framework of a 
transition to permanance.  It seems natural that permanance will 
grow on them once they have experienced the alternative.  And, if we 
have a chance to present the holistic or deeper framework that permaculture   
has to offer, we can help in this shift at a personal and community 
level.

As a farm advisor and permaculture teacher, the critical thing in 
my way of thinking in terms of bermudagrass control is that the 
novice gardener/farmer understands the urgency of keeping on 
top of this plant that at one time was commonly known 
as "Devil's Weed." 

As an example, a friend looked askance at the roadside flower bed I 
established last year with a strip of Sunbelt fabric weed barrier 
10'x90' in size.  She wanted to know why I didn't just mulch that patch 
of bermudagrass and Johnsongrass with straw.  

The reason is that straw alone would have resulted in a nightmare, 
because the bermuda would grow right through it...and the 
hard-to-find native plants, prairie wildflowers, herbaceous 
perennials, and herbs that were planted there would have vanished, 
since it was a low-maintenance bed by design.  On the other hand, 
a "sheet" of newspaper or cardboard underlying the straw mulch would 
shift the whole equation by providing a barrier underneath the mulch  

This seems like a simple matter, but it is critical that some 
"system" of weed control is understood and implemented before putting 
a tremendous amount of effort into a doomed project. 

In support of the organic sheet mulch method, I offer three items: 

1.  
One of the best little articles and descriptions of the organic 
sheet mulch system was in the newsletter of The Permaculture Activist
about a year ago.  It described all the wonders of microbial and soil 
life as a result of the breakdown and decomposition from the organic 
materials etc. 

2.  
The City of Fayetteville, Arkansas is fortunate to have in its 
horticulture department a few really progressive women in key 
positions.  In the most prominent and beautiful park in town, 
Lisa P. the city gardener had a very successful experience in 
controlling bermudagrass via the organic sheet mulch method.  She 
covered a huge bed area with cardboard, and topped it with straw and 
wood chips for one whole growing season.  This year the weeds are gone 
and the soil looks great and it is ready to plant.  Thus, the organic 
sheet mulch method is a viable option for municipalities as well as 
for home gardeners.   

3.  
Rebecca Bryant, a fellow environmental activist from Fayetteville 
who posted the original message on Ozark Challenges, 
I am happy to report, has done a very nice job of adopting the 
organic sheet mulch to a good size portion of an overgrown garden.  
After taking one look at the heavy layer of cardboard, soon to be 
topped with leaves and straw etc., I am confident that bermuda will 
be gone at the end of the growing season and the worms will have a 
feast on the organic decay. 

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas  

> From:          Elfpermacl@aol.com
> Date:          Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:41:45 -0500 (EST)
> To:            steved@ncatark.uark.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
>                permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Cc:            permaculture@envirolink.org
> Subject:       Re: Ozark Challenges

> Spreading plastic all over the ground is spreading chemicals all over the
> ground.  Plastic is not stable, but photodecays and spontaneously decays,
> depending on the kind of plastic, etc.  Volatiles get into the ground.  In my
> view, this practice is hostile to permaculture.  I know that serious
> permaculturists disagree--I'
> m responding to such a viewipoint.  My purpose is to state a viewpoint that
> needs expression, not start a flame war or even a debate.
> 
> The facts are obvious.  People will opt for the convenience of plastic or for
> a more conservative definition of permaculture.  That's a pretty clear
> choice.  There is no missing or hidden information needed to make it.
> 
> For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
> 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
> consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
> permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
> Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
>  YankeePerm@aol.com  
> 
> We don't have time to rush.
 
 

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Mar 28 18:56:02 1997
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From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
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        permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, Elfpermacl@aol.com
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Ozark Challenges
X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a)
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
Status: RO
X-Status: 

A few observations on sheet mulching, as a follow-up to Ozark 
Challenges and the control of bermudagrass: 

The permaculture way is to go with current energy (i.e., renewable 
rather than fossil fuel), to reduce pollution, to avoid toxics, and to 
use organic and biological resources as much as possible. 

In this context, plastic is a poor choice as a sheet mulch in 
comparison to an organic sheet mulch system based on layers of newspaper 
or cardboard topped with leaves, straw, or hay.  Thus, I think it 
was helpful to get that message from Dan Hemmenway about permaculture 
and plastic (attached below). 

Taking into account where people are on the scale of permanance, 
I also think it appropriate to present a number of non-chemical or 
low-input options and let people work within the framework of a 
transition to permanance.  It seems natural that permanance will 
grow on them once they have experienced the alternative.  And, if we 
have a chance to present the holistic or deeper framework that permaculture   
has to offer, we can help in this shift at a personal and community 
level.

As a farm advisor and permaculture teacher, the critical thing in 
my way of thinking in terms of bermudagrass control is that the 
novice gardener/farmer understands the urgency of keeping on 
top of this plant that at one time was commonly known 
as "Devil's Weed." 

As an example, a friend looked askance at the roadside flower bed I 
established last year with a strip of Sunbelt fabric weed barrier 
10'x90' in size.  She wanted to know why I didn't just mulch that patch 
of bermudagrass and Johnsongrass with straw.  

The reason is that straw alone would have resulted in a nightmare, 
because the bermuda would grow right through it...and the 
hard-to-find native plants, prairie wildflowers, herbaceous 
perennials, and herbs that were planted there would have vanished, 
since it was a low-maintenance bed by design.  On the other hand, 
a "sheet" of newspaper or cardboard underlying the straw mulch would 
shift the whole equation by providing a barrier underneath the mulch  

This seems like a simple matter, but it is critical that some 
"system" of weed control is understood and implemented before putting 
a tremendous amount of effort into a doomed project. 

In support of the organic sheet mulch method, I offer three items: 

1.  
One of the best little articles and descriptions of the organic 
sheet mulch system was in the newsletter of The Permaculture Activist
about a year ago.  It described all the wonders of microbial and soil 
life as a result of the breakdown and decomposition from the organic 
materials etc. 

2.  
The City of Fayetteville, Arkansas is fortunate to have in its 
horticulture department a few really progressive women in key 
positions.  In the most prominent and beautiful park in town, 
Lisa P. the city gardener had a very successful experience in 
controlling bermudagrass via the organic sheet mulch method.  She 
covered a huge bed area with cardboard, and topped it with straw and 
wood chips for one whole growing season.  This year the weeds are gone 
and the soil looks great and it is ready to plant.  Thus, the organic 
sheet mulch method is a viable option for municipalities as well as 
for home gardeners.   

3.  
Rebecca Bryant, a fellow environmental activist from Fayetteville 
who posted the original message on Ozark Challenges, 
I am happy to report, has done a very nice job of adopting the 
organic sheet mulch to a good size portion of an overgrown garden.  
After taking one look at the heavy layer of cardboard, soon to be 
topped with leaves and straw etc., I am confident that bermuda will 
be gone at the end of the growing season and the worms will have a 
feast on the organic decay. 

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, Arkansas  

> From:          Elfpermacl@aol.com
> Date:          Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:41:45 -0500 (EST)
> To:            steved@ncatark.uark.edu, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
>                permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Cc:            permaculture@envirolink.org
> Subject:       Re: Ozark Challenges

> Spreading plastic all over the ground is spreading chemicals all over the
> ground.  Plastic is not stable, but photodecays and spontaneously decays,
> depending on the kind of plastic, etc.  Volatiles get into the ground.  In my
> view, this practice is hostile to permaculture.  I know that serious
> permaculturists disagree--I'
> m responding to such a viewipoint.  My purpose is to state a viewpoint that
> needs expression, not start a flame war or even a debate.
> 
> The facts are obvious.  People will opt for the convenience of plastic or for
> a more conservative definition of permaculture.  That's a pretty clear
> choice.  There is no missing or hidden information needed to make it.
> 
> For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
> 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
> consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981). Next  correspondence
> permaculture training by email starts in Aug., '97. Internships available.
> Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA
>  YankeePerm@aol.com  
> 
> We don't have time to rush.
 
 

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Mar 29 15:03:44 1997
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Date: 	Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:46:07 -0500 (EST)
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Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 13:22:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: diversity v monoculture and climate change 


>>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 16:12:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "M. Mattox" <mmattox@u.washington.edu>
Subject: diversity v monoculture and climate change
>>	
I am trying to research the differences in systems that are diverse
biologically and structurally compared to monocultures in the face of
climate change. If anyone has any ideas or sources I would really
appreciate the input. 
I am largely concerned with forest systems but general issues or case
studies would be helpful.
As a means of future management for resources it seems that illustrating
the importance of diversity and variety is a fundamental issue. I hope to
be able to compile some coherent argument for this.
Any input would be great, my email is  mmattox@u.washington.edu
Thanks, Megan
>>

> From: Michael Yount <yount@csf.Colorado.EDU>
> You might try:
> 
> Scoones, I., et al., 1996, 
> Hazards and Opportunities: Farming Livelihoods in Dryland
>    Africa - Lessons from Zimbabwe, 
> London and New Jersey: Zed Books 
> 
> It goes into detail about the different ways in which
> rural people in Zimbabwe coped with the disastrous droughts
> in 1991 and '92.  (By "systems" I'm hoping you mean human
> communities, too.)
> 
> Michael
> yount@csf.colorado.edu


Also appropriate might be the book:

"Food From Dryland Gardens"

An Ecological, Nutritional & Social Approach 
to Small-Scale Household Food Production

by: David Cleveland and Daniela Soleri
    Illustrated by Daniela Soleri
    Center For People, Food, and the Environment, CFPE
    344 South Third Avenue
    Tuscon, Arizona, 85701, USA
    with support from the
    United Nations Children's Fund, UNICEF

Copyright 1991



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Mar 29 23:10:46 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Food Quality and Soil Health; Response (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:14:23 -0500
From: Charles Benbrook <benbrook@hillnet.com>
To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Food Quality and Soil Health; Response

        I appreciate Chris Alenson's post of 3/20 re "Food Quality -- A
Matter of Taste!"  I have no way to prove it, but am certain that the
complexity of a crop's growth process has to be reflected in the richness
and complexity of its taste.  Having just attended Willie's conference and
heard lots of related papers, I had a few others ideas and questions that I
pass along for anyone to reflect on.

        We have learned there is more to soil fertility than supplying
enough N-P-K, and that the heart of soil quality is microbial biodiversity
and activity, as it relates to the N pool, soil structure, root development,
and microbial biocontrol of soil pathogens.  I takes biological activity in
the root zone for the complex communications to occur between soil
pathogens, roots, plant immune systems, root exudates, leading to the
outcome of a healthy balance in the cropping system.  Pathogens persist, but
do not overwhelm; roots develop, are attacked, but plants overcome.

        Then, listening to all the nutrition experts at the Tufts conference
generally report a lack of evidence of major differences in the "quality" of
food as measured by protein, vitamins, minerals -- the "N-P-K" of the
dietary world -- got me to thinking.  The human gut is a complex,
microbial-dominated ecosystem.  The activity of microorganisms in the gut
plays a vital role in nutrition because it both determines the
bioavailability of various nutrients/minerals, as well as the capacity of
the body to deal with various pathogens, carcinogens, mycotoxins, and other
poisons we consume in small quantities, everyday. I suspect processes in the
gut are also critical in the proper triggering of human immune response to
various threats that first enter the body through food and water.  

        Most compounds that trigger hormonal secretions and govern the
physiology of the body's basic systems -- day to day respiration, energy
metabolism, reproduction and growth, immune response -- are
controlled/triggered/regulated by complex protein compounds formed around a
mineral base, often iron or zinc.  These compounds are called
"metalloregulatory compounds," and happen to be structurally similar often
in soil and in mammals.  There was a great special issue of Science focusing
on "Bioinorganic Chemistry" with articles on metalloproteins,
metalloenzymes, etc).  An article in the issue (Vol. 261, Aug. 6, 1993, page
715) is entitled "Transition Metals in Control of Gene Expression," and
describes the role of metals, and complex proteins built around them, in
governing the biochemistry and function of the cell, which in turn governs
the response to changes in the environment, in food, in disease response,
etc.  I highly recommend this series of articles to people wanting to delve
more deeply into what may be going on with organic systems, food
bioavailability, and nutrition/health, and even taste.  One of the basic
findings across many areas of research discussed in this series of articles
is that one of the things that go "wrong" in plant and animal systems is a
temporary lack of iron, zinc or other "hub" compounds around which organisms
build their metalloregulatory compounds.  This is the functional equivalent
of not having the building blocks accessible to create enough "on-switches"
for the immune system, for example, when a person gets a big dose of a
microbial contaminant like salmonella, or exposed to a flu bug, and needs to
KICK IN NOW the immune response, to avoid a case of the you know what.  

        So imagine what a basic, homogenized, highly processed, highly
sweetened, narrow and biologically "near-dead" diet does to the microflora
of the gut?  About the same as hot N-P-K fertilizers do to the soil, I
suspect.  In the gut, this would lead to a lack of efficient capacity to
extract iron/zinc where it may be bound in the diet, i.e. these minerals
pass through the body unabsorbed to some degree, dampening the body's
ability to turn on various systems and responses when it has a signal to do so. 

        Which leads to a number of intriguing questions -- in doing tests of
the nutritional/health advantages of organically produced food, maybe we
need to test different cohorts -- one people who have eaten "conventional"
diets for a long time; another who have eaten more "natural" and
biologically active diets, with lots of food grown in alive soil.  Wonder if
we would learn it is not just what is in the food, but how people are able
to use it.

        Which gets us back to flavor.  I also suspect that a persons ability
to experience flavors is a function, to some degree of the "gas
chromatograph" in their throat, for lack of a more accurate term.  I know
absolutely nothing about the physiology of taste, but suspect that what is
going on in the body's juices, particularly saliva, is going to make a
difference re what flavors jump out at a person, and which remain subtle, or
not detected.

        Looking forward to any reflections; we will post the substantive
items in this thread on the PMAC web page.

                chuck

         
Charles Benbrook                         202-546-5089 (voice)
Benbrook Consulting Services             202-546-5028  (fax)
409 First Street S.E.                    benbrook@hillnet.com   [e-mail]
Washington, D.C.  20003                  http://www.pmac.net

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 12:01:51 -0600
From: mendezer@computo.catie.ac.cr
To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: sending info to list members (fwd)

Dear cover-crop interestees:

There goes my thesis material. I want to clarify that I did this in
California, not in the tropics, which is where I am now.  However, I am very
interested in sustainable agriculture in the tropics.  I did my M.S. thesis
on the agroecology of homegarden agroforestry systems in Nicaragua.  So, any
info or discussion relating to tropical agriculture is definitely welcome.
Hope this way of sending the material works for all.

sincerely,


Ernesto Mendez
Agroforestry Consultant
CATIE/GTZ Agroforestry Proyect
CATIE 7170
Turrialba, Costa Rica








Méndez, V.E.  1994.  Use of clovers as living mulches in small-scale,
low-input vegetable production.  B.Sc.  Thesis.  California Polytechnic
State University.  San Luis Obispo, CA.  USA.  39 p.  



ABSTRACT

	Living mulches, cover crops planted with a companion or cash crop, have the
potential of benefiting agricultural systems by improving soil properties
and adding biodiversity to agroecosystems.  The objectives of this
experiment were to determine the effects of two potential living mulch
species, White Dutch clover(Trifolium repens  L. cv. Dutch) and Strawberry
clover(Trifolium fragiferum L. cv. Salina), and living mulch seeding time on
soil properties and broccoli (Brassica oleracea group italica cv. Marathon)
dry weight and yield in a low-input agricultural system.  Four broccoli dry
weight measurements were taken starting 3 months after transplant and at 15
day intervals in an attempt to record effects of  living mulches at
different stages of  broccoli development.  Broccoli yield was significantly
lower (p£0.01)  in living mulch plots than in bare plots.  Soil organic
matter was significantly higher (p£0.05) in pre-established mulch plots than
in simultaneously seeded plots.  Soil resistance was significantly greater
(p£0.01) in bare plots.  Plots where mulch was seeded prior to broccoli
transplant resulted in lower yields than all other plots.  In this
experiment living mulches were beneficial to the soil system but detrimental
to broccoli yield.  This issue presents the challenge of adapting living
mulch techniques so they do not result in crop yield loss.






LITERATURE CITED


Akobundu, I.O. and B.N. Okigbo.  1984.  Preliminary evaluation of ground
covers for use as live mulch in maize production.  Field Crops Res. 8:177-186.

Altieri, M.A. and M. Liebman.  1986.  Insect, weed and plant disease
management in multiple cropping systems.  p. 183-219.  In C. A. Francis
(ed.)  Multiple cropping systems.  Macmillan Publishing Co.  New York, NY.

Altieri, M. A. and L. L. Schmidt.  1985.  Cover crop manipulation in
northern California orchards and vineyards:  effects on arthropod
communities. Biol. Agric. and Hort. 3:1-24.

Anonymous.  1981.  The concept of living mulch.  Am. Vegetable Grower
29:38,40,42,44,46,61.

Andow, D.A., A.G. Nicholson, H.C. Wien and H.R. Wilson.  1986.  Insect
populations on cabbage grown with living mulches.  Environmental  Entomology
15:293-299.

Baker, D.C. and D.W. Norman.  1990.  The farming systems research and
extension approach to small farm development.  p.  91-104.  In M. A. Altieri
and S.B. Hecht.  Agroecology and small farm development.  CRC press.  Boca
Raton, Fla.

Bugg, R.L., F.L. Wackers, K.E. Brunson, J.D. Dutcher and S.C. Phatak.  1991.
Cool-season cover crops relay intercropped with cantaloupe:  influence on a
generalist predator, Geocoris 	punctipes (Hemiptera:  Lygaeidae).  J. Econ.
Entom. 84:408-416.

Coleman, E.  1989.  The new organic grower.  Chelsea Green.  Chelsea, VT.

Elkins, D., D. Frederking, R. Marashi and B. McVay.  1983.  Living mulch for
no-till corn and soybeans.  J. of Soil and Water Cons. 8:431-433.

Enache, A. J. and R. D. Ilnicki.  1990.  Weed control by subterranean clover
(Trifolium subterraneum) used as a living mulch.  Weed Tech. 4:534-538.

Fawzy, M.  1992.  Establishment techniques for living mulches in
transplanted vegetable production.  M.S. thesis.  Cal Poly Univ., San Luis
Obispo, CA.

Fischer, A. and L. Burrill.  1993.  Managing interference in a sweet
corn-white clover living mulch system.  Am. J. of Alt. Ag. 8:51-56.

Francis, C. A., 1986.  Introduction: distribution and importance of
multiple cropping.  p. 1-19.   In C. A. Francis (ed.)  Multiple cropping
systems.  Macmillan Publishing Co.  New York, NY.

Fukuoka, M., 1985.  The natural way of farming:  the theory and practice of
green philosophy.  Japan Publications.  New York, NY.
 
Grubinger, V. P. and P.L. Minotti.  1990.  Managing white clover 	living
mulch for sweet corn production with partial rototilling.  Am. J. of Alt.
Ag. 5:4-12.

Hartl, W.  1989.  Influence of undersown clovers on weeds and on 	the yield
of winter wheat in organic farming.  Agric. Ecosystems and Environ. 27:389-396. 

Khan, M. J., E. J. Monke and G. R. Foster.  1988.  Mulch cover and canopy
effect on soil loss.  Trans. of the ASAE 31:706-711.

Lanini, W. T., J. M. Shribbs and C. E. Elmore.  1988.  Orchard floor
mulching trials in the U.S.A.  Components 1:5-6.

Latheef, M. A., J. H. Ortiz and A.Q. Sheikh.  1984.  Influence of
intercropping on Phyllotreta cruciferae  (Coleoptera:  	Chrysomelidae)
populations on collard plants.  J. Econ. Ento. 77:1180-1184.

Miller, R. W. and R. L. Donahue.  1990.  Soils, an introduction to soils and
plant growth.  Prentice Hall.  Englewood Cliffs, NJ.

Nabhan, G., M. Slater and L. Yarger.  1990.  New crops for small farmers in
marginal lands?  wild chiles as a case study.  p. 19-26.  In M. A. Altieri
and S.B. Hecht.  Agroecology and small farm development.  CRC press.  Boca
Raton, Fla.

Paul, E. A. and F. E. Clark.  1989.  Soil microbiology and
biochemistry.Academic Press.  San Diego, CA.

Plucknett, D. L. and N. J. H. Smith.  1986.  Historical perspectives on
multiple cropping.  p.  20-39.  In  C. A. Francis (ed.)  Multiple 	cropping
systems.  Macmillan Publishing Co.  New York, NY.

Regnier, E. E. and R. R. Janke.  1990.  Evolving strategies for managing
weeds.  p.  174-203.  In C. A. Edwards, R. Lal, P. Madden, R. H. Miller and
G. House (eds.)  Sustainable Agricultural Systems.  	Soil and Water
Conservation Society, Ankemy, IA.

Sarrantonio, M.  1992.  Opportunities and challenges for the inclusion of
soil-improving crops in vegetable production systems.  HortScience 27:757-758.

Savory, A.  1988.  Holistic resource management.  Island Press.  Washington, DC.

Scott, T. W., J. Mt. Pleasant, R. F. Burt and D. J. Otis.  1987.
Contributions of ground cover, dry matter and nitrogen from intercrops and
cover crops in a corn polyculture system.  Agron. J. 79:792-798.

Stewart, R. H., K. W. Lynch and E. M. White.  1980.  The effect of growing
clover cultivars in association with barley cultivars 	upon grain yield of
the barley crop in the year of sowing and the subsequent year.  J. Agric.
Sci. 95:715-720.

Stirzaker, R. J., B. G. Sutton and N. Collis-George.  1992.  Soil management
for irrigated vegetable production.  I.  the growth 	of processing tomatoes
following soil preparation by cultivation, zero-tillage and an in situ-grown
mulch.  Aust. J. Agric. Res. 44:817-829.

Tomar, J. S., A. F. MacKenzie, G. R. Mhuys and I. Alli.  1988.  Corn growth
with foliar nitrogen, soil-applied nitrogen and legume intercrops.  Agron.
J. 80:802-807.

Vrabel, T. E., P. L. Minotti and R. D. Sweet.  1983.  Regulating competition
from white clover in a sweet corn living mulch system.  Weed Sci. Soc. Am.
Abstracts 23:4.

White J. G. and T. W. Scott.  1991.  Effects of perennial forage-legume
living mulches on no-till winter wheat and rye.  Field Crops Res. 28:135-148.
At 22:54 29.03.97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 18:46:13 -0500
>To: "Ernesto Mendez (G.T.Z.)" <mendezer@computo.catie.ac.cr>
>Cc: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: Re: sending info to list members
>
>Ernesto Mendez (G.T.Z.) wrote:
>> 
>> march 7, 1997
>> 
>> Hello to everyone !
>> 
>> As you may have noticed there is an interest in cover crops and living
>> mulches.  I want to send those interested the bibliography of my thesis
>> and want to know what is the best way to do it.  Is it an attachment?  I
>> do not want to bother those not interested.
>> 
>> Ernesto Mendez
>> Agroforestry Consultant
>> CATIE-GTZ Agroforestry Project
>...................
>
>I would reall appreciate your sending me a copy of your cover 
>crops/living mulches bibliography. I have a collection of resources 
>on these topics that I make available on the Web.
>If you're interested see various directories in: 
>http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/orgfarm
>
>Lawrence London
>london@sunsite.unc.edu
>http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden
>london@nuteknet.com
>
>
>
>

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Apr  4 22:40:18 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Dee Dee wrote:

> A mailing list to discuss permaculture and related topics is
> now available.
> 
> To subscribe to the list send email to
> permaculture-request@GlobalGarden.com with the body of the message
> containing:
> 
>     subscribe
> 
> To subscribe to the digest version of the list, send the above message
> to permaculture-digest-request@GlobalGarden.com
> 
> --
> 
> Dee Dee
> dd@sgi.com

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Apr  8 12:30:43 1997
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From: Rebbry@aol.com
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org,
        cohousing-l@freedom.mtn.org
Subject: Last Billboard: Permaculture Workshop
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Ozark CoHousing in Fayetteville, Arkansas is sponsoring an affordable
permaculture workshop the evening of May 9 through May 11.  The cost is $95.

Presenter Patricia Michael is a social and environmental activist, designer,
lecturer and educator who studied permaculture with Bill Mollison in
Australia, New Zealand, Europe, Central America and the U.S.  A
Vice-Chancellor of the International Permaculture Academy at Tyalgum,
Australia, Ms. Michael emphasizes ecological designs that maximize the
potential of both humans and nature.

What will you get out of the workshop?  
--A basic understanding of permaculture.  
--Design tools and ways to apply them to your home and farm.  
--The ability to analyze a site for best use of natural resources, buildings
and energy.
--Slides and stories of permaculture from around the world; 
--Site analysis for a planned botanical garden; and 
--A fun, hands-on experience with other cool people!

For more information, contact Karen McSpadden at kmcs@aol.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Apr  8 21:52:41 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Does Permaculture work? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 21:52:23 -0500
From: Becca Laughing Shapley <bshapley@brynmawr.edu>
mailto:bshapley@brynmawr.edu
To: csa-l@prairienet.org
mailto:csa-l@prairienet.org
Subject: Does Permaculture work?

Hello!

I have to say, this mailing list is an incredible resource. Thank you to
all who have taken the time to respond to my questions!

I have another one:

Have any of the CSA's or other farms on this list intentionally or
unintentionally used principles from Permaculture in your farm's planning
or production?

I gave a presentation to my Senior Seminar in Environmental Studies on
Permaculture, and my fellow students were inspired by it. However, I spoke
mostly about the theoretical or examples of what could be, and received
several comments that they would like to know about how it works in real
life.  The perfessor is particularly interested in whether permaculture is
applicable on a large scale, or if it requires too much management. Others
were interested in knowing if the same area of land really could be more
productive, either in biomass or cash terms, than the same area under
conventional agricultural practices.

Can anyone put in a few words?

Thanks!

Becca
bshapley@brynmawr.edu


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Apr  8 22:17:42 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: permaculture in Zimbabwe (fwd)
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--------------
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/sanet2/msg00465.html
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 15:55:03 EDT
From: JDEVLIN <JDEVLIN@oac.uoguelph.ca>
mailto:JDEVLIN@oac.uoguelph.ca
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
mailto:sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu

Subject: permaculture in Zimbabwe

Dear SANETters

I am trying to find an e-mail for the permaculture group in
Zimbabwe.   Do you have or know where I might find such?   We are
planning an ecological agriculture meeting in Zambia and I want to
make an invitation.   If you are aware of any other permaculture
people in the southern Africa region and have an address I would be 
most appreciative.

Thanks,
John Devlin
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
John F. Devlin
International Project Coordinator, 
University School of Rural Planning and Development
Assistant Director,   Environmental Capacity Enhancement Project      
Room 016 Johnston Hall, The University of Guelph
E-Mail:   jdevlin@oac.uoguelph.ca
Tel: 519-824-4120  Ext.3773     Fax:519-821-9904
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Apr  8 23:22:12 1997
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Dear Becca, 
I have had the wonderful and interesting experience of visiting Farmer
Dave's CSA who has most definitely used Permaculture principles.  Read about
his venture at http://members.aol.com/ourfarm1/index.htm.
Vicki Garland





From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Apr  9 13:19:56 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 08:50:36 -0700
From: jeff owens <kowens@teleport.com>
mailto:kowens@teleport.com
To: permaculture@globalgarden.com
mailto:permaculture@globalgarden.com
Subject: [permaculture] Hello

Hello, I just signed on to this list and hoped to see a discussion
of Permaculture.. So far not one post.  So... I'll introduce myself.

About 30 years ago we started working on becoming homesteaders and
self-reliant.  Over the years an ecological foucs emerged and our
lifestyle did not fit homesteader very well.  Then, about two years
ago we began trying to follow Permaculture principles and this has
worked out fairly well.  Unfortunatly, there does not seem to be many
others on this path.  Most people on the net seem interested in
teaching or are part of intentional communities.  I had hoped to find
people talking about how they work with their site.  Specifically,
ponds, forest gardens, guilds, cover crops, ducks, and mental
attitudes are of interest.  We have experience with alternative
energy, underground housing, sheep, orchards, and grow much of our
food.

 ----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com)  Zone 6-7  Permaculture
 Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Apr  9 14:47:24 1997
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From: cclash@web.net (Jocelyn J. Paquette Bob Ewing)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re:  [permaculture] Hello (fwd)
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Hi, I'm also new and am interested in talking about
the possibilities. I've just become involved in two
project one a community garden, we are still looking
for land, have two possible sites but both
have problems. The other is a
school yard/community centre beautifcation project. I'd
like to hear from anyone who has involvement in either using
permaculture.

Bob Ewing
cclash@web.net
Thunder Bay, ON. on the border of zones 2 and 3.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 09:26:18 1997
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From: Pacific Edge Permaculture <pacedge@magna.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Hello (fwd)
References: <m0wF2PW-000ByTC@web.net>
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Hi Jocelyn

We are involved in community gardens and city farms in Sydney, as state
co-ordinators for Australian City Farms and Community Gardens Network
here in Australia. 

We help young community gardens get going and may help existing gardens
when they may be at a low ebb with facilitation or training workshop
using permaculture principles and techniques.

We are also involved in particpatory whole school design using
permaculture and running hands on permaculture gardening with students
in primary schools.

What in particultar were you interested in finding out?

Catch you soon

Fiona

____

Jocelyn J. Paquette Bob Ewing wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'm also new and am interested in talking about
> the possibilities. I've just become involved in two
> project one a community garden, we are still looking
> for land, have two possible sites but both
> have problems. The other is a
> school yard/community centre beautifcation project. I'd
> like to hear from anyone who has involvement in either using
> permaculture.
> 
> Bob Ewing
> cclash@web.net
> Thunder Bay, ON. on the border of zones 2 and 3.

-- 
PACIFIC EDGE PERMACULTURE
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone   02-9588 6931    (IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax     9514 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
          (IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: pacedge@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 13:37:56 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT) (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 06:40:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Adam Tiller <adamt@peg.apc.org>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu,
    leftlink@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Havana, Cuba: Permaculture Job Advertisement (HAVAD02.TXT)

The following is the full version of a very brief advertisement for
"Permaculture Development Officer, Havana, Cuba" in the most recent
Permaculture International Journal.  The ad was titled "Join the Green Team".

Note also, the "Permaculture in Cuba" Web page has been greatly enhanced in
the last few days  ...Adam
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Job Advertisement

Permaculture Development Officer
Urban Permaculture Program, Havana, Cuba 

Starting mid-late 1997.  One year preferred.
Travel to Cuba and living expenses provided.

We require a community development worker to work with our 
partner organisation in Cuba, the Fundación de la Naturaleza 
y el Hombre, on a local salary (approx. AUD $50-$200 per month).  
This program was established in Cuba in 1993, and is known as 
the 'Green Team'.

Essential Requirements:
Practical permaculture experience.
Community development experience.
Spoken Spanish (or demonstrated ability to learn).
Good administrative and written skills.

Desirable:
Experience working in developing country or indigenous community.
Project management experience.
Teaching experience.
An understanding of international development and aid issues, 
esp. participatory development and gender issues.

This position is open only to Australian citizens or residents.  
Inquire to PGAN for other positions available with other projects 
and in other countries.

This project is funded by AusAID and donations (tax deductible) 
from the public.

Closing date: 1st May 97 (early applications advantageous, 
late applications accepted).

For information and Position Description, please contact 
Adam Tiller or view our Web page:
Adam Tiller, Permaculture and Development Officer
Permaculture Global Assistance Network (PGAN)
Australian Conservation Foundation, 340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
tel: +61 3 9416 1166, fax: +61 3 9416 0767
email: adamt@peg.apc.org   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt/cuba


Save Date: 29/1/97 1:11 PM	Date Printed: 29 January, 1997	Word count: 204

Filename: c:\user\adamt\cuba\voluntee.r\orientat.ion\HAVAD01.DOC	


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 14:54:38 1997
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From: Kristofer Still <STILLKR@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu>
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Subject: Peramculture courses
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I am a college student interested in designing a major in permaculture
or agricultural ecology and I was wondering if anyone had could suggest
classes that I would need to take and where the best place to take them
would be.  The resources at my University have proved rather unhelpful.  


                                        Kristofer Still

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 16:26:19 1997
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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you wrote:
Then, about two years
ago we began trying to follow Permaculture principles and this has
worked out fairly well.  Unfortunatly, there does not seem to be many
others on this path.  Most people on the net seem interested in
teaching or are part of intentional communities.  I had hoped to find
people talking about how they work with their site.  Specifically,
ponds, forest gardens, guilds, cover crops, ducks, and mental
attitudes are of interest.

end quote

Well, I'm afraid that I live at an intentional community that does 
permaculture education. However, we are also a permaculture demonstration 
site. There is a pond on property that we are about to purchase, so we 
look forward to incorporating that into our design. We recently expanded 
out forest garden area with the addition of elderberries, gooseberries, 
high-bush blue berries. We're also looking to do more with this area -- 
we're expecting a shipment from Edible Landscaping in another week 
that'll have some bush cherries and a cold hardy plant that's supposed to 
be similar to a date (don't remember the name). We've also done some work 
with guilds, although our favorite example got wiped out by a flood, 
which has prompted us to put more perennials on that side of the garden! 
We're experiementing with buckwheat as a cover crop this year. Our newest 
member brought 4 ducks and 2 goats with her, which we are also workingon 
incorporating. So far we've been using the animals to provide us with 
enriched straw for sheet mulching (old bedding) and the animals have been 
getting most of our kitchen scraps, which cuts down on rodents and dogs 
in the compost pile.

Mental attitudes -- we got 'em. Which kind are you interested in?

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 20:22:31 1997
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From: kowens@teleport.com (jeff owens)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: (permaculture) Hello
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970410160446.9234A-100000@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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Linda wrote:
>There is a pond on property that we are about to purchase, so we 
>look forward to incorporating that into our design.

We have a bog that I am converting into a pond gradually.  The plan
is to use timber bamboo on one side, then rotate ducks and sheep
through the area.  We are now growing Indian potatoes (arrow head
plant) and plan to try chufa nuts along the bank.  This combination
looks sustainable if we are careful about how many ducks and sheep
are near the pond.  Everything is planted except for the chufa
nuts and appears complimentary.  I would be interested in hearing
if anyone has experience with chufa nuts along a pond bank.

> We recently expanded 
>out forest garden area with the addition of elderberries, gooseberries, 
>high-bush blue berries. We're also looking to do more with this area -- 
>we're expecting a shipment from Edible Landscaping in another week 
>that'll have some bush cherries and a cold hardy plant that's supposed to 
>be similar to a date (don't remember the name).

The date like plant might be a Jujube?  We didn't have much luck
with them here (Oregon, foothills of Mt Hood).  The blackberries
are rampant along the edge of clearings, so we use them extensively
as food, fences, and targets for abusive language.  It would be
nice to integrate them in with other plants, but so far our domestic
thornless transplants have not been able to compete.  When our trees
get larger we are planning to try the thornless blackberries between
them along with summer vine crops and cover crops.  Last year
we grew clover between the trees and mounded it up to compost and grow
melons/squash.  The mounds covered with IRT did quite well.

>We're experimenting with buckwheat as a cover crop this year.

We grew buckwheat last summer and expected it to reseed this spring.
Instead the clovers and other plants have moved in with a vengeance.
This tells me that the buckwheat prepares a good seedbed for spring
and our soil is now more fertile.  My guess is that buckwheat is ideal
for preparing areas with poor soil and has to be harvested in the
fall, then planted somewhere else next summer.

>Our newest 
>member brought 4 ducks and 2 goats with her, which we are also workingon 
>incorporating. So far we've been using the animals to provide us with 
>enriched straw for sheet mulching (old bedding) and the animals have been 
>getting most of our kitchen scraps, which cuts down on rodents and dogs 
>in the compost pile.

Ducks!  I love ducks.  Last year we could see that our ecology was
out of balance and needed something.  After listing all the problems
(slugs, bugs, hauling compost, etc.) the answer we came up with was
ducks.  Nature must have come to the same conclusion, because soon
after that a duck moved in and set up housekeeping.  The impact on the
local ecology has been outstanding.  The slugs are in full retreat and
the soil looks much improved where it spends time.  Sometimes I wish
it wouldn't roost on the porch and watch us in the window, but that
is a minor problem.

>Mental attitudes -- we got 'em. Which kind are you interested in?

I suspect those in intentional communities have different perspective
on attitudes.  For myself the biggest problem is society and its
constant programming.  The message seems to be one of consume and
buy solutions.  If you have a problem go find a specialists and pay
them to recommend a product.  Thinking like this ties one to the
money economy and thwarts some aspects of Permaculture.  I would
be interested in how others deal with this.

 ----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com)  Zone 6-7  Permaculture
 Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Apr 10 22:38:06 1997
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On Thu, 10 Apr 1997, Linda Felch wrote:

> Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 16:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
> To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Subject: Re: (permaculture) Hello
[text deleted]
> site. There is a pond on property that we are about to purchase, so we 
> look forward to incorporating that into our design. We recently expanded 
> out forest garden area with the addition of elderberries, gooseberries, 
> high-bush blue berries. We're also looking to do more with this area -- 
> we're expecting a shipment from Edible Landscaping in another week 
> that'll have some bush cherries and a cold hardy plant that's supposed to 
> be similar to a date (don't remember the name). We've also done some work 

You might want to plant several varieties of eleagnus. Many of these bear
profuse quantities of edible fruit. See the Plants For A Future plant 
database for background on eleagnus and its relatives.

http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/index.html
or
http://www.axis-net.com/pfaf/

Or specifically:

To quote R.J. Morris:

"http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/elaeagns.html
Plants For A Future
R.J. Morris

Elaeagnus x ebbingei - A Plant for all Reasons. 
                                                                            
Some plants are so exciting and have so much potential for the 
permaculture grower, that I really cannot understand why they are
not better known. Just one such plant is Elaeagnus x ebbingei. This 
hybrid species of garden origin, the result of a cross between E.
macrophylla and E. pungens (or perhaps E. x reflexa), is commonly grown 
as a garden ornamental - in the future I hope it will be
extensively grown as a multi-purpose plant in many permaculture systems."
-

In North Carolina landscape nurseries offer several varieties of
eleagnus: pungens, fruitlandi, angustifolia and possibly others.
The wild variety is called Russian Olive. All are very hardy and some
offer wonderfully fragrant blooms in Autumn, others sweet/sour 
small fruit in Summer. They are exceptional for wildlife habitat and food
and as windbreaks, shelter for shade-loving plants and for incorporating 
into edge zones in permaculture systems.

Other wild plants worth considering are:

lowbush blueberry
wild black raspberry
wild black cherry
white mulberry
fig
wild strawberries
wild plums

ground nuts (nutsedge?)
daylillies
cattails
lotus
burdock
Jerusalem artichoke
wild spearmint 
violets
plantain (greater & lesser)
comfrey

walnut
pecan
hickory
butternut


LL

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Apr 11 11:41:55 1997
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>You might want to plant several varieties of eleagnus. Many of these bear
>profuse quantities of edible fruit. See the Plants For A Future plant 
>database for background on eleagnus and its relatives.

I've read that some eleagnus are difficult to contain and thorny, so
it might be wise to use some caution here (think kudzu).  We are
growing Eleagnus multiflora (goumi) which does not have thorns and I
can confirm that it is easy to grow and productive.  The berries are a
small and useful for making jams.  One question which is still puzzling
me about eleagnus is how different animals react to the leaves.  We
have noticed that so far the deer have not grazed on it and our sheep
ignore it.  Not sure if this is significant, but it is good to be
cautions with unfamiliar plants.

 ----------
Jeff Owens (kowens@teleport.com)  Zone 6-7  Permaculture
 Underground house, solar energy, reduced consumption, no TV

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Apr 11 11:49:52 1997
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Thanks for the info on eleagnus and other useful wild plants, Lawrence.

I didn't notice inyour description of eleagnus any mention of its 
nitrogen-fixing properties. I think that's on e of the best reasons for 
using it! We ahve several and have used them in guilds as a nitrogen 
fixer with heavy feeders on the dripline of the tree.

In a forestry class that I recently took, it was mentioned that eleagnus 
is considered an invasive exotic on the order of multiflora rose or 
honeysuckle. When questioned about this, the professor indicated that 
birds eat the fruit and deposit the seeds elsewhere, so one might not see 
the "invasion" happening. Anyone have any further info on the 
invasiveness of eleagnus? I've been hesitant to grow more than we already 
have if the are indeed invasive.

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Apr 11 15:02:38 1997
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Subject: Ozark Challenges & Naturalized Pools
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The discussion group has been a great resource.  I appreciate you folks.
 Here's an update:  

Bermuda grass (wiregrass): I scavenged cardboard boxes from an appliance
dealer and used them as the first layer of a sheet mulch.  I followed the
cardboard with about a foot of leaves, then wood chips.  Next will come
manure and perhaps more leaves and chips. Around the garden area, my plan is
mulch the bermuda out of existance (or use the hot water technique) and
introduce another species (what I'm not sure) to crowd out future attempts by
the bermuda to reestablish itself.

Swimmng Pool: Yesterday I rented a small pump and tested an old well on my
property. It will produce, at the very minumum, 1500 gallons a day (and
perhaps much more).  I am thinking about pumping well water into the bottom
of the pool, then using water from the surface of the pool to irrigate my
garden.  By creating a simulation of the spring-fed pond or pool, I may not
need chemicals. The pool holds 20,000 gallons. I don't know how quickly the
water needs to turn over to make this work.  Maybe a combination of fresh
water flow and plants and fish will do the trick.  

If you have more ideas, I welcome them.  I'll keep you posted, Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Apr 11 15:08:46 1997
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The discussion group has been a great resource.  I appreciate you folks.
 Here's an update:  

Bermuda grass (wiregrass): I scavenged cardboard boxes from an appliance
dealer and used them as the first layer of a sheet mulch.  I followed the
cardboard with about a foot of leaves, then wood chips.  Next will come
manure and perhaps more leaves and chips. Around the garden area, my plan is
mulch the bermuda out of existance (or use the hot water technique) and
introduce another species (what I'm not sure) to crowd out future attempts by
the bermuda to reestablish itself.

Swimmng Pool: Yesterday I rented a small pump and tested an old well on my
property. It will produce, at the very minumum, 1500 gallons a day (and
perhaps much more).  I am thinking about pumping well water into the bottom
of the pool, then using water from the surface of the pool to irrigate my
garden.  By creating a simulation of the spring-fed pond or pool, I may not
need chemicals. The pool holds 20,000 gallons. I don't know how quickly the
water needs to turn over to make this work.  Maybe a combination of fresh
water flow and plants and fish will do the trick.  

If you have more ideas, I welcome them.  I'll keep you posted, Rebecca Bryant

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Apr 12 19:03:37 1997
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Subject: Summer Course Offering
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SUMMER COURSES FOR INTERESTS IN:
* PERMACULTURE
* SUSTAINABLE LIVING
* COMMUNITY DESIGN

Gaia Education Outreach Institute Announces Two Concurrent Programs in
Sustainable Living at Derbyshire Farm, Temple, NH, USA.

The Game of Eco-Village
A Permaculture Design Course, June 5-20, 1997
Successful completion leads to Permaculture Design Trainee certification.

and

1997 Summer Institute in Sustainable Living, June 5-28, 1997
A University of New Hampshire Summer Session, 4 credits available for the 3
week institute.

ECO-VILLAGE DESIGN. As a human-designed ecosystem, the village is a
fascinating study in whole culture design. The way our lives and communities
are currently organized creates massive ecological damage, economic stress
and social injustice. How can we pattern resources, technologies, and people
in such a way as to form the basis for regenerative, sustainable and healthy
communities, human and natural?

THE PERMACULTURE APPROACH. As an ecological design approach and philosophy,
permaculture has many tools to offer. The goal is to apply the principles,
patterns and relationships inherent in natural systems to consciously
designing sustainable human cultures and repairing damaged ecosystems. The
permaculture approach is applicable at any scale, in any climate of the world
-- for farms, homes and communities, urban and rural.

THE GAME OF ECO-VILLAGE. PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE: JUNE 5-20. The Game of
Eco-Village is played on at least two levels. The first level is the engaging
and fun learning community we create together. The second is the role play at
the course's core: the participants are eco-village members engaged in
designing their eco-village on the course site, and have hired the teaching
staff as design process facilitators and consultants. Both levels of play are
intended to model the community and design processes the course intends to
teach, with an emphasis on resilient, functional systems design, and the
honing of people's community and design skills.  Student design teams will
define and refine vision and goals, undertake site analysis and schematically
design social, legal and physical infrastructure, land use patterns, etc.
Those interested in homestead or farm design can focus on these areas. All
students successfully completing the course will be certified as Permaculture
Design Trainees and may use the term "permaculture" in the pursuit of
livelihood and for educational purposes.

THE SUMMER INSTITUTE IN SUSTAINABLE LIVING: JUNE 5-28. Following the Game of
Eco-Village course, a smaller group of students and faculty will have an
additional week to extend, develop, reflect  on and summarize the course's
ideas and experiences, visit local innovative projects, write project papers,
and enjoy the beautiful natural environment and community. Four undergraduate
credits are available for this three week program through the GeoCommons
College Year affiliation with the University of New Hampshire (UNH Summer
Session Course #687).

COURSE CURRICULUM. These two offerings are special opportunities for up to 30
students to be guided by five outstanding faculty in ecological design.
Through observation, lecture, demonstration, discussion, and hands-on
learning, students will develop their practical skills and knowledge for
living sustainably and in harmony with the natural world and will
cooperatively explore ways to make to make one's own home, community, and
campus more sustainable. The daily schedule aims for a balance of physical,
intellectual, emotional, and spiritual elements as a conscious experiment in
sustainable group living. Topics will include: *Permaculture principles and
ethics *Biosystem mapping and site evaluation *Appropriate energy systems and
shelter *Cooperative community processes and forms *Animals and integrated
pest management *Design patterns, skills and processes *Integrated home scale
systems *Alternative economic system design *Edible landscaping and forest
gardens *Design for soil fertility improvement *Mindfulness practice, shared
inspiration, celebrations.

INSTRUCTORS
David Jacke - Nationally recognized master permaculturist, with 12 years of
professional design and 8 years of permaculture teaching experience.
Cynthia Edwards - Professional landscaper for 20 years, 10 year permaculture
activist and educator, and international permaculture development worker.
Dan Earle - Professor of Landscape Architecture, Louisiana State University;
registered landscape architect; permaculture designer; PhD, Marine Sciences.
Bruce Kantner - Founder/director of GEO, UNH faculty in sustainable living,
organic farmer, builder, founding member Monadnock GeoCommons Village.
Daniel Greenberg - GEO faculty, PhD in psychology and intentional
communities.

COST: $1200 for the 3-week Summer Institute; $750 for 2-week permaculture
course only. Both include tuition, food and tent space.

MONADNOCK ECO-VILLAGE. This educational eco-village will be the base of
operations for Gaia Education Outreach Institute, the GEOCommons programs,
and a number of housing clusters. Current plans are for 12-15 households in
the first cluster, residences and classrooms for 20 students, a
theater-movement-celebration space, green businesses, farm, and nature
sanctuary on 75 or more acres of fields and forest.

Contact GEO Institute Admissions for an application:
GEO, Derbyshire Farm, Temple NH 03084, (603) 654-6705, geo@igc.org
A $25 deposit is necessary to reserve a space.

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Subject: A Permaculture Primer - WWW
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Visit our new Permaculture Primer Web Site at this wonderfully easy to
remember address:

http://hueylong.cadgis.lsu.edu/lhin/visitor/html/primer/

Dan Earle, Lousiana State University.

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Visit our new Permaculture Primer Web Site at this wonderfully easy to
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http://hueylong.cadgis.lsu.edu/lhin/visitor/html/primer/

Dan Earle, Lousiana State University.

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Subject: Summer Course Offering
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SUMMER COURSES FOR INTERESTS IN:
* PERMACULTURE
* SUSTAINABLE LIVING
* COMMUNITY DESIGN

Gaia Education Outreach Institute Announces Two Concurrent Programs in
Sustainable Living at Derbyshire Farm, Temple, NH, USA.

The Game of Eco-Village
A Permaculture Design Course, June 5-20, 1997
Successful completion leads to Permaculture Design Trainee certification.

and

1997 Summer Institute in Sustainable Living, June 5-28, 1997
A University of New Hampshire Summer Session, 4 credits available for the 3
week institute.

ECO-VILLAGE DESIGN. As a human-designed ecosystem, the village is a
fascinating study in whole culture design. The way our lives and communities
are currently organized creates massive ecological damage, economic stress
and social injustice. How can we pattern resources, technologies, and people
in such a way as to form the basis for regenerative, sustainable and healthy
communities, human and natural?

THE PERMACULTURE APPROACH. As an ecological design approach and philosophy,
permaculture has many tools to offer. The goal is to apply the principles,
patterns and relationships inherent in natural systems to consciously
designing sustainable human cultures and repairing damaged ecosystems. The
permaculture approach is applicable at any scale, in any climate of the world
-- for farms, homes and communities, urban and rural.

THE GAME OF ECO-VILLAGE. PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE: JUNE 5-20. The Game of
Eco-Village is played on at least two levels. The first level is the engaging
and fun learning community we create together. The second is the role play at
the course's core: the participants are eco-village members engaged in
designing their eco-village on the course site, and have hired the teaching
staff as design process facilitators and consultants. Both levels of play are
intended to model the community and design processes the course intends to
teach, with an emphasis on resilient, functional systems design, and the
honing of people's community and design skills.  Student design teams will
define and refine vision and goals, undertake site analysis and schematically
design social, legal and physical infrastructure, land use patterns, etc.
Those interested in homestead or farm design can focus on these areas. All
students successfully completing the course will be certified as Permaculture
Design Trainees and may use the term "permaculture" in the pursuit of
livelihood and for educational purposes.

THE SUMMER INSTITUTE IN SUSTAINABLE LIVING: JUNE 5-28. Following the Game of
Eco-Village course, a smaller group of students and faculty will have an
additional week to extend, develop, reflect  on and summarize the course's
ideas and experiences, visit local innovative projects, write project papers,
and enjoy the beautiful natural environment and community. Four undergraduate
credits are available for this three week program through the GeoCommons
College Year affiliation with the University of New Hampshire (UNH Summer
Session Course #687).

COURSE CURRICULUM. These two offerings are special opportunities for up to 30
students to be guided by five outstanding faculty in ecological design.
Through observation, lecture, demonstration, discussion, and hands-on
learning, students will develop their practical skills and knowledge for
living sustainably and in harmony with the natural world and will
cooperatively explore ways to make to make one's own home, community, and
campus more sustainable. The daily schedule aims for a balance of physical,
intellectual, emotional, and spiritual elements as a conscious experiment in
sustainable group living. Topics will include: *Permaculture principles and
ethics *Biosystem mapping and site evaluation *Appropriate energy systems and
shelter *Cooperative community processes and forms *Animals and integrated
pest management *Design patterns, skills and processes *Integrated home scale
systems *Alternative economic system design *Edible landscaping and forest
gardens *Design for soil fertility improvement *Mindfulness practice, shared
inspiration, celebrations.

INSTRUCTORS
David Jacke - Nationally recognized master permaculturist, with 12 years of
professional design and 8 years of permaculture teaching experience.
Cynthia Edwards - Professional landscaper for 20 years, 10 year permaculture
activist and educator, and international permaculture development worker.
Dan Earle - Professor of Landscape Architecture, Louisiana State University;
registered landscape architect; permaculture designer; PhD, Marine Sciences.
Bruce Kantner - Founder/director of GEO, UNH faculty in sustainable living,
organic farmer, builder, founding member Monadnock GeoCommons Village.
Daniel Greenberg - GEO faculty, PhD in psychology and intentional
communities.

COST: $1200 for the 3-week Summer Institute; $750 for 2-week permaculture
course only. Both include tuition, food and tent space.

MONADNOCK ECO-VILLAGE. This educational eco-village will be the base of
operations for Gaia Education Outreach Institute, the GEOCommons programs,
and a number of housing clusters. Current plans are for 12-15 households in
the first cluster, residences and classrooms for 20 students, a
theater-movement-celebration space, green businesses, farm, and nature
sanctuary on 75 or more acres of fields and forest.

Contact GEO Institute Admissions for an application:
GEO, Derbyshire Farm, Temple NH 03084, (603) 654-6705, geo@igc.org
A $25 deposit is necessary to reserve a space.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Apr 13 18:48:44 1997
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In my recent announcement for the 1997 Summer Institute in Sustainable Living
and the Game of Eco-Village Permaculture Design Courses, June 5-20, I
inadvertently left Leslie Goldstein, Earthlands Community member, organic
gardner, Permaculture Course graduate and apprentice teacher off  of the list
of the six faculty. For more information on course contact GEO Institute
(603)654-6705, or e-mail geo@igc.org. Please excuse my error. Dan Earl 

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In my recent announcement for the 1997 Summer Institute in Sustainable Living
and the Game of Eco-Village Permaculture Design Courses, June 5-20, I
inadvertently left Leslie Goldstein, Earthlands Community member, organic
gardner, Permaculture Course graduate and apprentice teacher off  of the list
of the six faculty. For more information on course contact GEO Institute
(603)654-6705, or e-mail geo@igc.org. Please excuse my error. Dan Earl 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Apr 13 23:02:53 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: eleagnus
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970411112601.7176A@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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On Fri, 11 Apr 1997, Linda Felch wrote:

> Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:47:35 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
> To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Subject: eleagnus
> 
> Thanks for the info on eleagnus and other useful wild plants, Lawrence.
> 
> I didn't notice in your description of eleagnus any mention of its 
> nitrogen-fixing properties. I think that's on e of the best reasons for 
> using it! We have several and have used them in guilds as a nitrogen 
> fixer with heavy feeders on the dripline of the tree.

I overlooked that & was reminded by the info at PFAF. I saw this firsthand
this afternoon. I attempted to transplant one of our wild Russian Olive's
from a wooded location to a position in a hedgerow beside one of my 
vegetable garden sites. Many of the rootlets had clusters of little white
bumps on them. These were, I assume, the N-F nodules.
 
> In a forestry class that I recently took, it was mentioned that eleagnus 
> is considered an invasive exotic on the order of multiflora rose or 
> honeysuckle. When questioned about this, the professor indicated that 
> birds eat the fruit and deposit the seeds elsewhere, so one might not see 
> the "invasion" happening. Anyone have any further info on the 
> invasiveness of eleagnus? I've been hesitant to grow more than we already 
> have if the are indeed invasive.

Pine, Eastern red cedar, eleagnus, multiflora rose, where present in
a fertile location, may become reseeded by birds at nearly the same rate.
I have all of these in my fields and eleagnus has the smallest population.
I think eleagnus will reeseed itself with little difficulty only in 
certain locations, the same as with elderberry which seems to require 
semi-wet, fertile locations. Eleagnus seems to like, not open fields, but
semi-shady locations with filtered sunlight or direct light part of the 
day. It will thrive in an open sunny location quite well too. I think that
seedlings may not have the same survival rate as the other plants listed 
above; at least not so in your average open field under average 
conditions of drought, cold, wet & predation. Once established it is very 
hardy and can survive with little nourishment. It is deep-rooted with a 
sparse but heavy root system and is very difficult to transplant. See 
PFAF for more cultural information. I feel that eleagnus can hardly be 
considered invasive except under conditions ideal for its survival
and propagation. As with developing any plant communities you would need
to keep in mind that many plants can become invasive under certain 
conditions and thus dominate and out-compete plant neighbors. I assume
eleagnus doesn't exude any alleopathic substances into the soil and that
it relies on shading and N-F to overtake its vulnerable neighbors. Some
varieties have climbing growth habits and can easily overtake surrounding
shrubs and small trees when growing in fertile locations. One location 
where I often see it growing around these parts is in semi-shaded 
hardwood forests with limited fertility. The plants get leggy, bear good
fruit and hang on for years and years with little added growth. I would 
guess that it likes to reseed into moldy woods earth. Cedar, pine and rose
like open fields of friable clay loam with moderate organic matter content
and a small amount of plant litter on the surface and within clumps of 
grasses and other weeds.

Lawrence
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

> Linda Felch
> lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
> http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
> Baltimore, MD
> 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Apr 13 23:46:04 1997
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From: cclash@web.net (Jocelyn J. Paquette Bob Ewing)
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Subject: Re: [permaculture] Hello (fwd)
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One of the problmes that we are having with the school beuatfication
project

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Apr 13 23:48:48 1997
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From: cclash@web.net (Jocelyn J. Paquette Bob Ewing)
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Please ignore previous message was away for two days and have
just finished processing over 1000 msgs. thnaks for your
reply, right now I'm looking
for examples of successful projects (school beautifcation}
so that i can give some examples to the less optimistic committee
members.

Bob Ewing
cclash@web.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 10:54:05 1997
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Subject: Re: Desert fava source.
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A double amen. Wonderful folks. Now lets help more native seeds searchers
find what there is from the other areas of the US and world. Bob
Randall/Houston

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 11:01:25 1997
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Alas, Bermuda grass and nut sedge are destroyers of gardens in Houston too.
One effective, simple and productive remedy is to plant the area in sweet
potatoes in May (here)--perhaps importing to the site sandy loam hills if
necessary-- then mulching heavily with cardboard/newspaper and 3 inches of
hay/other mulch. All Bermuda and 98% nut sedge will be gone by December
digging time and a large production as well. Once these grasses are out, we
use raised beds with frames--wood/concrete blocks-- to keep out stolons.  Bob
Randall/Houston

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Apr 14 22:19:55 1997
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To: UrbanHarve@aol.com
Cc: Elfpermacl@aol.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, susag.permaculture@nf.igc.apc.org,
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Subject: fava delights
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Friends of Native Seeds/Search of Tucson:

If you grow favas of almost any kind, remember that the young beans made a
very tasty dish. Lightly steamed with a touch of butter and salt, hmmmm!

Look at the steamer water when you are done. Beautiful colors, good for dying
stuff.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Apr 14 22:25:10 1997
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Subject: fava delights
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Friends of Native Seeds/Search of Tucson:

If you grow favas of almost any kind, remember that the young beans made a
very tasty dish. Lightly steamed with a touch of butter and salt, hmmmm!

Look at the steamer water when you are done. Beautiful colors, good for dying
stuff.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Apr 15 08:20:30 1997
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Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Desert fava source.
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In a message dated 4/14/97 11:22:21 PM, UrbanHarve@aol.com wrote:

>A double amen. Wonderful folks. Now lets help more native seeds searchers
>find what there is from the other areas of the US and world. Bob
>Randall/Houston


In a message dated 4/14/97 11:22:21 PM, you wrote:

>A double amen. Wonderful folks. Now lets help more native seeds searchers
>find what there is from the other areas of the US and world. Bob
>Randall/Houston

Hi Bob

Well, a lot of of this work is beign done, as you doubtless know, by such
established groups as Kent Whealy's seed saver exchange and also smaller
groups such as some friends who are saving seed from their Mohawk heritage
(last I heard).  We're publishing a list of groups involved in such genetic
resource rescue and preservation in the next issue of PROD (Permaculture
Review, Overview and Digest.) Any nominations are welcome.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia
Hemenway, P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478 USA  YankeePerm@aol.com  

We don't have time to rush.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Apr 15 14:54:14 1997
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture these days..
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>What permaculture offers us is a way to bring back the ways of the
hunters/gatherers. A way of life that potentially restores a balance to
humanity.  A way where the holy dollar is not as holy as the fruit and nuts
we gather from our trees. A way that restores the sanity of humanity by
creating plenty that restores our faith in prosperity.  lack=fear
plenty=faith. Restoring our faith, restores sanity..faith in the provision
of the trees, the roots, the grasses, the herbs and the flowers to give us
food and sustain us.
>
>So this is the season where we place into the earth, roots of shrubs and
trees and berries and we plant our grasses and herbs and we bring to our
homes the birds that live with us, and our children will remember the trees
we planted and come there often to eat of them and they will be thankful to
us to have a haven we have created for them. And their children will
remember that it was the elders that planted these trees and fruits that
sustain them and they will feel the abundance we intended for them and they
will remember the heritage we give them in the planting. 
>
>It's the only thing I want to do. It is the only thing that matters to me
these days.  It's about taking on the reponsibility for our children
everywhere and through time. And for the hope of our civilization.
>
>Highly recommended*** by Daniel Quinn: "Ishmael" and " The Story of
B"..They were a 'click' for me..
>
>Hope you're all enjoying the Spring! Be very careful of your backs! We need
them!
>Vinca
>

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Apr 23 01:21:37 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: permaculture statistics (fwd) [Send all replies to: twardell@non-profits.org] 
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---- Please send any replies directly to: twardell@non-profits.org

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 08:00:18 +0000
From: Tim Wardell
From: twardell@non-profits.org
Subject: permaculture statistics


I was needing some statistics on permaculture and wondered if anyone 
knew of any sources. I'm looking for the following information:

- amount of soil erosion caused by current agricultural practices
- projected limits of fossil fuels (when will they run out)
- amount of water needed for current agricultural (monocultural) 
  practices as opposed to permaculture
- waste produced by cities in tonage or gallons of sewage
- comparison of yields in permaculture vs. monoculture

If anyone has such information, I'd like to know about it. Please 
send email to twardell@non-profits.org.

----------------------------------------
Tim Wardell, Volunteer Center of Dallas
twardell@non-profits.org
http://www.non-profits.org/


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Apr 23 12:41:10 1997
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From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: twardell@non-profits.org
Subject: Re: permaculture statistics (fwd) 
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> I was needing some statistics on permaculture and wondered if anyone 
> knew of any sources. I'm looking for the following information:
> 
> - amount of water needed for current agricultural (monocultural) 
>   practices as opposed to permaculture
> - comparison of yields in permaculture vs. monoculture

My impression is that it would be hard to find a simple answer or 
statistical data in response to these two questions, because 
permaculture s based on designing harmonious relationships between 
different elements in the landscape to arrive at what can be called 
"cultivated ecology."  

Rather than a production method per se, permaculture is a combination 
of ecological design, practical implementation, and adjustment of 
lifestyle to incorporate earth-friendly technologies instead of 
energy-consumptive or polluting technologies.   

On the other hand, from a purely agricultural point of veiw, there are 
dozens of documented examples where polycultures and intercrops  
are more productive in total land equivalent yield, support more diversity,  
and are more resilient to pest attack and therefore require fewer or 
zero use of pesticides.  

Likewise, water use comparisons are dependent on which region you 
live in, what cultural practices and tillage methods are used, method 
of irrigation, and finally, cropping system. 

Thus, a comparison of water use between monoculture crops versus 
intercrops, or cropping system, is dependent on all the other 
factors such as mulch versus no-mulch, good soil tilth versus poor 
soil tilth and ability for water to infiltrate readily or run off,  
good soil humus versus low soil humus, etc.  

By and large, you can say that permaculture strives towards 
the adoption of sustainable technologies and concepts in the big 
picture rather than at the statistically specific research data 
level.  

Thus, one sutra of permaculture may be: 
 * Plant intercrops or polycultures instead of monocrops

This truth is understood through lots of practical examples and 
data as necessary, but the focus is on a higher order of ecological 
understanding and ethically-based living rather than on scientifically 
documented research, per se.  In other words, when it is clear that 
you got the sutra right, it no longer requires decades of research 
or stacks of research papers to accept the basic sutra and get on 
with designing the system and putting it into practice. 

I offer this point of view in hopes that it helps you find the data
you need but that it will require looking in the agricultural 
literature rather than the permacultural literature, per se. 

Steve Diver
 

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Apr 23 17:03:53 1997
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Subject: Updates to Permaculture contacts and addresses
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I am updating The Permaculture FAQ, soon to be released with new 
material, updated contacts and addresses, and web listings

Does anybody know if the following group from Zimbabwe is 
still active?  

GroundCover
Permaculture Association of Zimbabwe
Box CY 301
Causeway, Harare 
Zimbabwe
Telephone/Fax:  (+4) 726911
Cost:  U.S. $30, per year

Also, I am looking for complete information on any permaculture 
newsletters/periodicals from India, Africa, Latin America, Asia 
that could be added to the Permaculture Resources from Around 
the World section. 

Please note the purpose is not a comprehensive listing of 
permaculture organizations, but rather a selection of those with 
newsletters or publications.  

There are other more comprehensive resource listings (Permaculture
International Journal, Yankee Permaculture/TRIP, The Permaculture 
Activist).

thanks!

Steve Diver
Fayetteville, AR 

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May  1 21:54:22 1997
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From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



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