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Organization: Venaura Farm -=+=- InterGarden
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From: <roseguy@flash.net>
Subject: 2nd RFD: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Newsgroups:news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,
alt.sustainable.agriculture,sci.bio.conservation,
sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) proposing the creation
of a new moderated group named rec.gardens.ecosystems. This is not a
Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time. Procedural details
are below.

CHANGES from previous RFD:

Re-editing of moderation policy for greater clarity.

Three groups have been added to which a pointer to the RFD will be
posted after it has become availab;e in news.announce.newgroups.

Two additional sections and an additional appendix added to the FAQ

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems    Ecosystems and organic gardening (Moderated)

RATIONALE:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic gardening is becoming increasingly popular with home
gardeners. Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995
showing that the number of home gardeners in the U.S. had grown to a
total of 78 million. A little over one third of those gardeners used
mostly organic gardening techniques, a little under one third used
mostly non-organic techniques, and the remaining one third used a
combination of organic and non-organic gardening methods. Organic
gardening was found to be the gardening system of choice for most
beginning gardeners and significant numbers of experienced gardeners
were moving toward the greater use of organic gardening techniques.

This popularity is also seen within the Internet community. The use of
environmentally friendly products and cultural practices for the home
garden are routinely discussed on the newsgroups: rec.gardens,
rec.gardens.roses, triangle.gardens, and alt.sustainable.agriculture.
The same is true in the U.K. with uk.rec.gardening. There are a number
of newsgroups on organic farming for the agricultural community plus a
number of newsgroups on ecology for the academic community. There is
also the Organic Gardening List, a news letter on organic gardening
from the University of Kentucky and the Environment List, a newsletter
on environmental issues from Cornell. In addition, there are a number
of related news letters from both private and commercial sources.
There are many webservers and home pages devoted to organic gardening
as well. All of these point to a potential for significant readership
and participation.

The goal of organic gardening is a healthy, vigorous garden that is in
harmony with nature. The purpose of rec.gardens.ecosystems is to
provide a forum on ways to achieve that goal in the home garden. The
selection of the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to give emphasis
to that purpose. It is recognized that there is a potential problem
involving cross posting particularly with rec.gardens.
Rec.gardens.ecosystems is proposed as a moderated group utilizing a
robomoderator primarily to minimize this problem. The robomoderator is
intended as the only moderator at work and it will refuse cross posted
articles and articles containing binaries automatically. The use of
human moderators will be minimized as much as possible.

CHARTER:rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.
=20
The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequentcy if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, =91flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderatoro checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator Supervisor: Don Chapman<don@bio-organics.com>
Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>

END MODERATOR INFO.

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes. In this phase
of the process, any potential problems with the proposed newsgroup
should be raised and resolved. The discussion period will continue for
a minimum of 21 days (starting when the first RFD for this proposal is
posted to news.announce.newsgroups), after which a Call For Votes
CFV)may be posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussions warrants
it. Please do not attempt to vote until this happens.

All discussions of this proposal should be posted to news.groups.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the Usenet creation guidelines
outlined in "How to Create a New Newsgroup" and "How to Format and
Submit a New Group Proposal". Please refer to these documents
(available in newnews.announce.newgroups) if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

The RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.gardens,rec.gardens.roses,
triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.bio.conservaton,sci.bio.botany,sci.bio.ecology. After the
publication of the RFD in news.announce.newsgroups, the RFD will
also be posted in the following newsletters: Organic Gardening
List (OGL@ukcc.uky.edu), Environment-L (listproc@cornell.edu), and
Compost-L (listproc@wsu.edu). Pointers to the RFD will be posted to
bionet.plants, bionet.population-bio, and rec.gardens.edible.

PROPONENT INFORMATION:

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>



--------------25134FB9613E--

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May  1 23:34:58 1997
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From: Michael Yount (yount@csf.Colorado.EDU)
Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:57:46 -0700 

Hi everyone,

This list is hosted by Josh Knauer and his colleagues
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From london  Mon May  5 12:25:14 1997
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	Mon, 5 May 1997 12:25:13 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Mon, 5 May 1997 12:25:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@calzone.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
Subject: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems 
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also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon May  5 12:26:59 1997
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also sent to these newsgroups:
          rec.gardens,
          rec.gardens.roses,
          rec.gardens.edible,
          bionet.plants,
          triangle.gardens,
          uk.rec.gardening,
          alt.sustainable.agriculture,
          sci.bio.conservation,
          sci.bio.botany,
          sci.bio.ecology,
          uk.environment,
          alt.agriculture.fruit

FROM:
-------------------------------------------
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl
-------------------------------------------
SUBJECT: Update on rec.gardens.ecosystems
-------------------------------------------

The 1st RFD for rec.gardens.ecosystems was posted on 5 March.
The feed-back and the discussions that followed were helpful.
We then made some corrections and minor changes. The 2nd
RFD was posted on 22 April. We then had a very generous offer 
from Lawrence F. London, Jr. He is making it possible for 
rec.gardens.ecosystems' on-topic articles to be archived and 
available thru WWW. The group FAQ will also be available by
means of WWW and FTP.

We are now moving towards a CFV or Call For Votes on 
news.groups. If there are any further comments or suggestions,
it would be heelpful if you would post them on news.groups at
this time. If you missed the 2nd RFD and want to see it, let
me know and I can send a copy as an attachment.

Bill Robinson

For further information contact:
-------------------------------- 
Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
mailto:roseguy@flash.net

Ronald Zwaagstra" <r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
mailto:r.zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed May 14 11:54:53 1997
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Does anyone know of any existing software that could 
be used to plan permaculture systems for working farms 
(small or large) or urban/suburban/rural gardens, 
farmscapes, landscapes, wildlife plantings, naturalized 
areas, woodlands and forests?

Lawrence London
mailto:london@sunsite.unc.edu
mailto:london@nuteknet.com
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed May 14 13:43:17 1997
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hello, I just hed the same question. through 'Don't panic eat organic', a
site w/perm links, I tried to e-mail a fellow , MDANNER@delphi.com, who
reported that his version was in the works. unfortunatly, aol could not find
him. If you have any success, I would sure like to hear about it!

                                                                Thank you and
good luck!






















                                                                         Todd
Finney

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 15 15:49:16 1997
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From: jcpicard@stthomas.edu
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
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Dear Lawrence London,
	I would be very interested in any info you receive about
permaculter software.  Please forward it to me.
				Sincerely, Jonathan Picard

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> 
> Does anyone know of any existing software that could 
> be used to plan permaculture systems for working farms 
> (small or large) or urban/suburban/rural gardens, 
> farmscapes, landscapes, wildlife plantings, naturalized 
> areas, woodlands and forests?
> 
> Lawrence London
> mailto:london@sunsite.unc.edu
> mailto:london@nuteknet.com
> http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden
> http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
> 
> 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 15 23:47:52 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: E.Smyth@uea.ac.uk
Subject: University student requiring information [Please reply to: E.Smyth@uea.ac.uk]
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Please send all replies to:

Emma Smyth 
mailto:E.Smyth@uea.ac.uk

----------------------------------------
University student requiring information

     To: organic@sunsite.unc.edu 
     Subject: University student requiring information 
     From: Emma Smyth <E.Smyth@uea.ac.uk> 
     Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 17:55:39 +0000 
     Organization: University of East Anglia 

Dear Sir/Madam, 
           Hello! My name is Emma Smyth and I am a second year student 
studying Environmental Sciences at the University of East Anglia. 
I'm presently trying to think of a topic for my third year project.  I am 
very interested in sustainable agriculture and as such am interested in 
organic farming and permaculture.  I was thinking about doing some sort 
of soil quality/soil ecology and/or yields comparison between organic 
farming and/or permaculture and large agri-business style farms.  
However, I don't know where any organic farms or permaculture sites are. 
 I would be grateful if you could let me know whether there are any 
projects already going on which I may possibly be able to help with over 
the Summer. My Email address is e.smyth@uea.ac.uk  Thankyou. Yours 
Faithfully, Emma Smyth.



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri May 16 09:52:12 1997
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	I am going on vacation to northern California and am wondering if
anyone knows of permaculture sites/resource centers that I could visit.
Thank you very much.
						Sincerely, Jonathan Picard

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri May 16 10:21:10 1997
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jcpicard@stthomas.edu wrote:
> 
>         I am going on vacation to northern California and am wondering if
> anyone knows of permaculture sites/resource centers that I could visit.
> Thank you very much.
>                                                 Sincerely, Jonathan Picard

Jonathan:  Try this!

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<BASE HREF="http://www.nbn.com/people/bapg/">

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<HEAD><TITLE>Bay Area Permaculture Guild</TITLE></HEAD>

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<BR>
<CENTER>
<H1>Bay Area Permaculture Guild</H1>
<p>
<HR ALIGN="CENTER" SIZE="4" WIDTH="400">
<B>&QUOT;Permaculture is a design system for land and home which creates integrated sustainable environments for all sentient beings.&QUOT;</B><BR>
<HR ALIGN="CENTER" SIZE="4" WIDTH="400">
<p>
</CENTER>
<BR>
<B>

<BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE>
<DL>

<DT><a href="fix01.html"><b> BAPGroup is now the BAPGuild</b></a><P>

<DT><a href="new.html"> What's New</a><P>
<DT> Articles from the Winter '97 issue Volume 1, Number 2
	<DD><a href="bioregn.html">Bioregionalism and Your Backyard</a>
	<DD><a href="review.html">Book Review</a>
	<DD><a href="brock.html">Occidental Arts and Ecology Center</a>
	<DD><a href="practice.html">Practical Permaculture</a>
	<DD><a href="hitemp.html">High Temperature Composting</a>
	<DD><A HREF="cotton.html">Is Cotton Good For Us</A><P>

<DT><A HREF="calendar.html"> '97 Calendar of Events</A><P>
<IMG alt="Roses" SRC="images/roses2.gif" ALIGN=RIGHT>
<DT><a href="networks.html"> Permaculture Videos</a><P>
<DT><A HREF="hotspots.html"> Permaculture Hot Spots</A> on the WWWeb<P>
<DT> More about <A HREF="perminfo.html">Permaculture</A><P>
<DT><A HREF="design.html"> Permaculture Design Course</A> information<P>
<DT><A HREF="resource.html"> Resources</A><P>
<DT><A HREF="reading.html">Recommended Reading</A><P>
<DT><A HREF="subscrpt.html">Subscription Information</A><P>
<DT><B>Write for <A HREF="#permadd">Advertising Information</A></B><P>
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<BLOCKQUOTE>
Editor's Greeting
<P>
Since our first promotional issue, your response has been nothing short of positive and generous. Thank you for your support, and keep on subscribing!! This newsletter is for the collective Permaculture community, and it is only through your support and participation that it thrives.  We want to reach all the like minded individuals and companies through this newsletter, and therefore entreat you to send us the names and addresses of those people you most want to know about the events that you are having, the articles that you are writing etc.  Our goal is to have a concentrated Permaculture mailing list, not a list of vaguely associated individuals.  Help us get it out there!!!!
<P>	
	It seems that Guild is a beguiling word in permaculture, for it expresses a natural design which we permies are trying to understand and emulate so sincerely. Guilds in nature are those arrangements which mutually benefit and encourage, such as the typical California plant guild of Oaks, Madrones and Bay Laurels. There were guilds of craftsmen and merchants which were the heart of medieval commerce.  The term guild evokes this medieval sense of alliance and cooperation, a romantic perspective which I enjoy maintaining. The Guild can't really refer to any natural designs for human elements, but it can aspire to encourage guilds which have worked throughout history for organizing and supporting like-minded people. 
<P>
If you would like to contribute an article, please contact our <A HREF="#permadd">office</A> through email or phone. We would like to hear from you.<BR>
<I>Andrea Taylor, Editor</I>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P>
<H3><A NAME="contact">Contact</A> Information :</H3>

<IMG alt="Roses" SRC="images/roses2.gif" ALIGN=RIGHT>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

	<b><i>Andrea Taylor</i></b><br>

	<A NAME="permadd"><B>Bay Area Permaculture Guild</B></A><BR>

	P.O. Box 9606<BR>

	San Rafael, CA 94912<BR>

	Phone 415-761-8220<BR>

	Email <a href="mailto:bapg@slip.net">bapg@slip.net</a><BR>

</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<A NAME="network"><A HREF="networks.html"><B>Networks Productions</B></A><BR>

	P.O. Box 558<BR>

	Santa Cruz, <BR>

	New Mexico  87567<BR>

	Phone: (505) 753-1651<BR> 

	<A HREF="mailto:networks@igc.apc.org">networks@igc.apc.org</A>

</BLOCKQUOTE>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<a name="oaec"><a href="oaec.html"><b>Occidental Arts and Ecology Center (OAEC)</b><br></a>

	15290 Coleman Valley Rd.<br>

	Occidental, CA 95465<br>

	Phone: 707-874-1557<br>

	FAX: 707-874-1558<br>

	email to Dave Henson: <a href="mailto:dhenson@igc.apc.org">dhenson@igc.apc.org</a>

</blockquote>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<b>New College Cultural Center (NCCC)</b><br>

	777 Valencia Street<br>

	San Francisco, CA <br>

	Phone 415-339-8140<br>

</blockquote>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<b>International Institute for Ecological Agriculture (IIEA)</b><br>

	834 West Caoifornia Way, <br>

	Woodside, CA  94062<br>

	Phone 415-365-2993<br>

	FAX 415-366-2241<br>

</blockquote>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<b>Our Farm  (OF)</b><br>

	834 West California Way, <br>

	Woodside, CA  94062<br>

	Phone 415-365-2993<br>

</blockquote>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<b>Santa Cruz Permaculture Guild (SantaCruzPG)</b><br>

	Phone 408-763-3848<br>

	800-469-5857<br>

</blockquote>

<br>

<blockquote>

	<b>Permaculture Activist</b><br>

	P. O. Box 12209<br>

	Black Mountain, NC  26711<br>

	Phone/FAX 704-683-4946<br>

	Editor: Peter Bane

</blockquote>

<br>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<A HREF="http://www.nbn.com/people/pinc/"><B>Permaculture Institute of Northern California (PINC)</B></A><br>

	P. O. Box 341<BR>

	Point Reyes Station<BR>

	CA  94956<BR>

	Phone/FAX 415-663-9090<BR>

	email: <a href="mailto:pinc@nbn.com">pinc@nbn.com</a><br>

	WWW: <a href="http://www.nbn.com/people/pinc/">http://www.nbn.com/people/pinc/</a> Visit their web site.

</BLOCKQUOTE>

<IMG alt="Tree" SRC="images/tree3.gif" ALIGN=RIGHT><BR>

<blockquote>

	<b><a name="sandy">Sandy</a> Bar Ranch</b><BR>

	P. O. Box347<BR>

	797 Ishi Pishi Rd.<BR>

	Orleans, CA 95556<BR>

	Phone: 916-627-3379<BR>

	FAX: 916-469-3415<BR>

</blockquote>

<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

	<a href="garden.html"><b>Sonoma County Permaculture Group (SCP)</b></a><br>

	3696 Burnside Rd.<br>

	Sebastopol, CA 95472<br>

	707-829-5524<br>

	Email to Keith Johnson: <A HREF="mailto:keithdj@sonic.net">keithdj@sonic.net</A>

</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<B>Larry Santoyo</B> 800-469-5857

<P>

<B>Cheri Tatum </B> 415-488-4935

<P>

</BLOCKQUOTE>
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<a href="http://www.nbn.com/"> North Bay Network</a> for donating this space!<br>

and<br>

<a href="http://www.nbn.com/inet/">Internet Interface</a><br>

for assistance in establishing the BAPG Web Site.<p>

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Last Updated 4-26-97<BR>

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Comments or Questions about these pages? Send email to  

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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri May 16 18:00:40 1997
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From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Agroforestry Resources for Permaculture Bookshelf
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Agroforestry Resources for the Permaculturists' Bookshelf 
                                       May 1997

============================================
                       Key Forestry Resources:
============================================

Fowells, H.A.  1965.  Silvics of Forest Trees of the United States.
Agriculture Handbook No. 271.  Forest Service, USDA.  762 p.

Little, Elbert L., Jr.  1979.  Checklist of United States Trees
(Native and Naturalized).  Agriculture Handbook No. 541.  Forest
Service, USDA  375 p.

Schopmeyer, C.S.  1974.  Seeds of the Woody Plants in the United
States.  Agriculture Handbook No. 450.  Forest Service, USDA.  883  p.

Van Dersel, W.R.  1938.  Native Woody Plants of the United States:
Their Erosion-Control and Wildlife Values.  USDA Miscellaneous
Publication No. 303.  362 p. 

Young, James A., and Cherly G. Young.  1992.  Seeds of Woody Plants of
North America.  Dioscorides Press, Portland, OR.  407 p.
      Seeds of Woody Plants of North America is a greatly revised edition
of the legendary U.S.D.A. Agriculture Handbook No. 450, Seeds of
Woody Plants in the United States.  The new edition covers twice the
genera of plants, including new material on native plants used in
environmental plantings and Asian plant materials of importance. The
focus is on propagation from seed; vegetative propagation is not
covered.  Presentation 	of material is condensed, however, and access
to the U.S.D.A. edition may be helpful for literature citations,
 taxonomic information, tables, and chapters on seed biology,
genetics, pollen handling, and harvesting and storage procedures.
Seeds of Woody Plants of North America lists for $49.95 from Timber
Press.  Contact: 

Timber Press, Inc.
9999 S.W. Wilshire, Suite 123
Portland, OR  97225
(800) 327-5680

==========================================
                     Key Agroforestry Proceedings
==========================================
1.
Ehrenreich, John H., Dixie L. Ehrenreich, and Harry W. Lee (ed.) 
1996.  Building a Sustainable Future:  Proceedings of the 4th North
American Agroforestry Conference.  Held July 1995 in Boise, Idaho. 
200 p.

Topics covered in the proceedings include:  agroforestry potential, 
biology of temperate agroforestry 	systems, economics of
agroforestry, temperate agroforestry cropping systems, riparian
buffer strips, silvopastoral systems, alley cropping and
intercropping, and windbreaks and shelterbelts.  Cost is $40, checks
payable to University of Idaho at: 

Dr. John Ehrenreich
College of Forestry, Wildlife, and Range Stations
University of Idaho
Moscow, ID  83844-1135
Tel:	208-885-7600
Fax:	208-885-5878
Email:	dixie@uidaho.edu

2.
Schultz, Richard C. and Joe P.Calletti (ed.)  1994.  Opportunities for
Agroforestry in the Temperate Zone Worldwide.  Proceedings of the
Third North American Temperate Agroforestry Conference.  Held August
1993 in Ames, Iowa.  

Order Opportunities for Agroforestry in the Temperate Zone Worldwide
from:

Department of Forestry
251 Bessey Hall
Iowa State University
Ames, IA  50011-1021
515-294-1166

3.
Rietveld, W.J.  1995.  Agroforestry and Sustainable Systems: 
Symposium Proceedings.  Held August 7-10, 1994 in Fort Collins,
Colorado.  General Technical Report RM-GTR-261.  USDA-Forest Service,
Rocky Mountain Forest and Range Experiment Station.  276 p.
     Topics in the proceedings include:  riparian buffer systems, soil
bioengineering--the use of dormant woody planting for slope
protection, windbreak systems, living snowfences, trees and pasture,
agroforestry and wildlife, status of agroforestry in 5 agroclimatic
regions of the U.S., agroforestry-enhanced biodiversity,
conservation trees, and much more.  A major contribution organized
and sponsored by the U.S.D.A.  	

4.
Garret, H.E. (ed.)  1991.  The 2nd Conference on Agroforestry in North
America.  The School of Natural Resources, University of Missouri,
Columbia, MO.  

5.
Williams, Peter (ed.)  1989.  Agroforestry in North America: 
Proceedings of the First Conference on Agroforestry in North America.
Department of Environmental Biology, University of Guelph, Guelph,
Ontario.

============================================
             Key Resource Centers, Periodicals & Organizations
============================================

The National Agroforestry Center
Rocky Mountain and Range Experiment Station
University of Nebraska - East Campus
Lincoln, NE  68583-0822
402-437-5178
http://gis.umn.edu/~hperry/NAC_FS/NatAgrofor.Cntr.Overview.html
     Publishes Inside Agroforestry newsletter, provides technical
assistance to landowners on windbreaks and agroforestry, sponsors
research, distributes literature.

Association for Temperate Agroforestry (AFTA)
c/o Dr. Deborah Hill, Treasurer
Forestry Department
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY  40546-0073
     $25/year membership fee includes subscription to The Temperate
Agroforester

The Temperate Agroforester , quarterly newsletter
Association for Temperate Agroforestry
P.O. Box 266
Lake Oswego, OR  97034
http://gis.umn.edu/~hperry/agroforestry.html

Agroforestry Today
ICRAF Subscriptions
P.O. Box 46
Stevenage, Hertfordshire  SG1 4TS
England
$40/4 issues per year
     Agroforestry Today is a quarterly magazine that carries reports
from around the world on farming systems that focus on the
integration of trees, crops, and livestock, and the people who raise
them. It is one of the leading  voices for agroforestry worldwide. 
While the content deals mostly with sub-tropical and tropical
agroforestry, much of the information has universal applications
(e.g., mycorrhizae, on-farm research methods, soil-plant
interactions, tree establishment methods, etc.)

============================================
                                 Compiled by Steve Diver
                                 steved@ncatark.uark.edu
============================================


--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon May 19 15:52:32 1997
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To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
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Any permaculture  contacts in and around Toronto?  

Some cuban permaculture activitsts will be 
attending a sustainable urban foods conference 
at Ryerson Polytechnic University, and a 
friend wanted to know of any permaculture 
contacts they could be put in touch with on their 
visit. 

steve diver
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 22 09:06:57 1997
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Dear Jonathon, 
Farmer Dave (Blume) has a very interesting Permaculture CSA farm in N. Cal.
We visited last year and his operation is worth seeing for the inspiration
of it all..he farms on a deep slope that is terraced and was extremely labor
intensive though successful as a food producing CSA.  6000 wheelbarrows of
compost were added there... can you imagine? His phone # is (415)365-2993
e-mail DBlume@igc.apc.org address: 834 W. California Way  Woodside, Ca
94062. Hope you get a chance to get there..
Vicki

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 22 11:31:40 1997
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From: Joe Dalsin <joed@igc.org>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: sites in N CA?
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On Thu, 22 May 1997 blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net wrote:
> Dear Jonathon, 
> Farmer Dave (Blume) has a very interesting Permaculture CSA farm in N. Cal.

He now has a web site to check out too.

www.permaculture-institute.org/ourfarm

Dave's farm is also sponsoring a Permaculture Design Course this summer.  
Bill Mollison and Scott Pittman will be teaching along with Dave and 
other guest speakers.  You can check that site out at
www.permaculture-institute.org  and can contact Dave Blume
about it as well.

Joe Dalsin

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 22 10:19:15 1997
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Dear Jonathon, 
Farmer Dave (Blume) has a very interesting Permaculture CSA farm in N. Cal.
We visited last year and his operation is worth seeing for the inspiration
of it all..he farms on a deep slope that is terraced and was extremely labor
intensive though successful as a food producing CSA.  6000 wheelbarrows of
compost were added there... can you imagine? His phone # is (415)365-2993
e-mail DBlume@igc.apc.org address: 834 W. California Way  Woodside, Ca
94062. Hope you get a chance to get there..
Vicki

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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Building the Natural Community - A two-week intensive Permaculture Design Course
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Hello!  
While browsing the web I couldn't help but notice the incredible amount of
information you've put on it regarding permaculture.  With this in mind I
was hoping you could help me get word about our design course out to the
larger internet community.  Being relatively new to the net I am still
floundering my way through all its vagaries.  I would appreciate any advice
on how to advertise our workshops.  Thank-you kindly!!

					Kirk Hanson

Building the
Natural Community
A two-week intensive Permaculture Design Course

Date: September 6-19
Location: Wild Thyme Farm
	       Oakville, WA

Description: Wild Thyme Farm, a 140 acre evolving permaculture site and
resource center, is located in the Chehalis river valley just 35 minutes
South of Olympia, WA.  Situated within its own watershed the farm features
a 100 acre second growth forest, turn-of-the-century barn, fruit &amp; nut
orchards, greenhouses, sauna, gardens, hot tub, streams, pond, cottages,
and various micro-climates ranging from ridge-top meadows to low-land
marshes and flood plains.  Wild Thyme Farm has been a retreat center since
1989 and integrative permaculture principles have continued to guide its
evolution.  
	This two-week intensive design course will examine the fundamentals of
developing sustainable villages and communities that are bioregionally
unique.  Elements of village design to be discussed include: local
economics, appropriate building strategies, edible landscaping,
agroforestry, cottage industries, aquaculture, mushroom cultivation, site
analysis, natural education, bamboo, livestock &amp; wild-life, food forests,
systems theory, and much, much more.  Information is presented through such
mediums as slide shows, lecture, hands-on demonstrations, field trips, and
observation walks.  Participants completing the entire course will receive
a Permaculture Design Course Graduate certificate.
	Instructors include: Larry Santoyo; a world renowned permaculture designer
&amp; educator who has worked directly with Bill Mollison.  Larry is the
foremost urban permaculture designer in the U.S. and has developed
sustainable industry programs for several major U.S. corporations.  Paul
Stamets; owner of Fungi Perfecti, the largest mushroom research facility in
the NW.  Paul has been pioneering perma-culture strategies for
re-integrating edible &amp; medicinal mushrooms into residential &amp; commercial
landscapes.  Simon Henderson; co-founder of Bamboo People, the NW’s leading
bamboo research &amp; consultation firm.  Simon has traveled the world
documenting bamboo cultivation and uses.  He is author of Raising the
Dragon: Bamboo Agroforestry in Southeast Asia.  Michael Pilarski; founder
of Friends of the Trees, a NW non-profit dedicated to reforesting the
world.  Michael has been a permaculture designer for over 15 years and has
more than two decades worth of experience in international networking and
sustainable natural resource management.  Joanne Lee; has founded the South
Sound Exchange, a local economic and bartering system for the Olympia area.
 She is also involved with co-housing initiatives in Thurston County.

Cost: $675 (includes tuition, camping, materials, and all meals.
Accommodations: Camping is free.  Limited bunkhouse accommodations: $150. 
Guesthouse rooms: $200.  Please inquire as to availability.
Course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Permaculture West
	     72 Mattson Rd.
	     Oakville, WA 98568
	     Ph: (360) 352-6509
	     Fx: (360) 273-7117
	     E-mail: permawest@olywa.net

				BUILDING THE NATURAL
				COMMUNITY.  A Two-week 
				Intensive Permaculture Design
				Course.  Sept. 6-19, Oakville, WA.
				Develop skills for observing patterns
				in nature while learning how to create
				villages &amp; communities using principles
				drawn from nature’s sustainable design.
				For details contact Permaculture West at:
				ph (360) 352-6509, or e-mail:
			            permawest@olywa.net.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat May 24 15:01:00 1997
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From: "Permaculture West" <permawest@olywa.net>
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Subject: Permaculture Design Course, Sept. '97
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Building the
Natural Community
A two-week intensive Permaculture Design Course

Date: September 6-19
Location: Wild Thyme Farm
	       Oakville, WA

Description: Wild Thyme Farm, a 140 acre evolving permaculture site and
resource center, is located in the Chehalis river valley just 35 minutes
South of Olympia, WA.  Situated within its own watershed the farm features
a 100 acre second growth forest, turn-of-the-century barn, fruit & nut
orchards, greenhouses, sauna, gardens, hot tub, streams, pond, cottages,
and various micro-climates ranging from ridge-top meadows to low-land
marshes and flood plains.  Wild Thyme Farm has been a retreat center since
1989 and integrative permaculture principles have continued to guide its
evolution.  
	This two-week intensive design course will examine the fundamentals of
developing sustainable villages and communities that are bioregionally
unique.  Elements of village design to be discussed include: local
economics, appropriate building strategies, edible landscaping,
agroforestry, cottage industries, aquaculture, mushroom cultivation, site
analysis, natural education, bamboo, livestock & wild-life, food forests,
systems theory, and much, much more.  Information is presented through such
mediums as slide shows, lecture, hands-on demonstrations, field trips, and
observation walks.  Participants completing the entire course will receive
a Permaculture Design Course Graduate certificate.
	Instructors include: Larry Santoyo; a world renowned permaculture designer
& educator who has worked directly with Bill Mollison.  Larry is the
foremost urban permaculture designer in the U.S. and has developed
sustainable industry programs for several major U.S. corporations.  Paul
Stamets; owner of Fungi Perfecti, the largest mushroom research facility in
the NW.  Paul has been pioneering perma-culture strategies for
re-integrating edible & medicinal mushrooms into residential & commercial
landscapes.  Simon Henderson; co-founder of Bamboo People, the NW's leading
bamboo research & consultation firm.  Simon has traveled the world
documenting bamboo cultivation and uses.  He is author of Raising the
Dragon: Bamboo Agroforestry in Southeast Asia.  Michael Pilarski; founder
of Friends of the Trees, a NW non-profit dedicated to reforesting the
world.  Michael has been a permaculture designer for over 15 years and has
more than two decades worth of experience in international networking and
sustainable natural resource management.  Joanne Lee; has founded the South
Sound Exchange, a local economic and bartering system for the Olympia area.
 She is also involved with co-housing initiatives in Thurston County.

Cost: $675 (includes tuition, camping, materials, and all meals.
Accommodations: Camping is free.  Limited bunkhouse accommodations: $150. 
Guesthouse rooms: $200.  Please inquire as to availability.
Course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Permaculture West
	     72 Mattson Rd.
	     Oakville, WA 98568
	     Ph: (360) 352-6509
	     Fx: (360) 273-7117
	     E-mail: permawest@olywa.net


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon May 26 16:52:00 1997
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Date: 	Mon, 26 May 1997 16:49:52 -0400 (EDT)
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Ecovillage planning and financing (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 14:38:12 -0300 (ADT)
From: pferraro@cycor.ca
Subject: Ecovillage planning and financing

After nearly two years of visionary planning we are now moving forward with
the development phase of an ecovillage on Prince Edward Island, Canada. This
month we will begin the formal development of a business plan.

 Later this summer we will be announcing a design competition for
architecture students for a main lodge and cottages; the criteria will be
that the facilities be energy self-reliant, recycle its waste water, and be
constructed of environmentally friendly materials. We are currently putting
together an information booklet for prospective entries.

The ecovillage will accomodate ecotourism, green business' and year-round
residences.

Our innovative fund raising through the marketing of "green" products and
government financing is generating the capital that we anticipatye that we
will need. Anyone interested in similar pursuits may wish to contact us
privately for more information.
Phil Ferraro
Institute for Bioregional Studies
393 University Avenue, Suite 126           "Developing Local Solutions
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island            to Global Problems."
Canada   C1A 4N4
Phone:(902) 892-9578      email:pferraro@cycor.ca
Fax: (902) 687-2322
Fundraising Opportunity:
You benefit while raising funds for your business, club or organization.
Free information on Nutritional and Environmentally Friendly Products.
Guaranteed quality products from international distributor with proven
marketing plan.
Ask us for details

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue May 27 13:39:23 1997
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: July 12-27 PC design course, MD/PA area
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Permaculture Design Course
Heathcote Intentional Community
July 12-27 

To make the transition toward a sustainable society, it is imperative that
we take responsibility for our own lives and meet our basic needs for
food, shelter, energy, gainful employment, and supportive community.  The
purpose of this course is to offer you practical training in permaculture
design techniques so that you can begin the application of these skills at
home and in your local community.

The course will cover the standard Permaculture Design Course curriculum,
with emphasis on working with natural systems. This course will be an
immersive experience in community living and permaculture design.

Permaculture education is a synthesis of classroom and participatory
learning, interactive education (observation exercises, role playing, guided
meditations, visioning, group sharing, and hands-on exercises), design
team work & presentation, and creative problem-solving.

Design course topics

Ecological living
Ecosystem dynamics
Identifying issues & establishing goals
Permaculture principles
Mapping & tools
Energy analysis and landscape design
Building soil and erosion control
Conserving water and nutrient flows
Forests, hydrology and microclimates
Growing & eating: Gardens, edible landscaping
Livestock and wildlife
Local useful and edible plants
Waste as a resource
Skills for creating community
Living well in cities: Urban permaculture
Implement what you learned: Take it home


Who should attend?

The course will be useful for people with varying levels of experience
from students and lovers of nature to design professionals. The main
requirement is a commitment to implementing sustainable living practices
in rural or urban areas.

Design course instructors

Dawn Shiner, a Permaculture Designer, herbalist, and homeschooling mother,
began teaching Permaculture in 1987 at Slippery Rock University and has
done numerous land consultations, workshops, and design courses.
Delighting in exploring minimal-impact lifestyles, Dawn and her family
recently founded Dancing Green in Cochranton, PA, to teach, demonstrate,
and model Permaculture principles of design to the general public.
Apprentice teacher Frank Hyldahl has extensive experience in gardening,
foraging, nursery, and site implementation.

Site

The Heathcote Community Conference Center is located 30 miles north of
Baltimore, MD, and 20 miles south of York, PA. It is nestled in a narrow
valley on a 37 acre community land trust.

Food, Lodging, and Other Amenities

Vegetarian meals, lodging in the conference center bunk room, and tent
sites are included in the design course. Care for children age five and up
is available with prior notification at an additional cost. Special
accomodations may be requested in advance.

Cost: $775, $25 discount if register before June 1,
limited work exchange and tuition assistance available)

Prerequisite: read Mollison and Slay's Introduction to Permaculture
        



Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue May 27 15:47:10 1997
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Date: 	Tue, 27 May 1997 12:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Joe Dalsin <joed@igc.org>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture Design Courses with Bill Mollison
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970527132013.18048B-100000@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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----------------------------------------------------------------
PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSES WITH BILL MOLLISON AND SCOTT PITTMAN
----------------------------------------------------------------

The only classes with Bill Mollison 
in the Northen Hemisphere in 1997!

Southern California June 16-27, Near Santa Barbara

Northern California July 14-25, Near Half Moon Bay

This is a two week residential course with 72 hours
of instruction.  For more information check out the
Web site at:  www.permaculture-institute.org
or write Dave Blume at: dblume@permaculture-institute.org
or write "real" mail to:

International Institute for Ecological Agriculture
PO Box 620930
Woodside, CA  94062-0930

Tel: 415-365-2993, Fax: 415-355-2241

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed May 28 14:12:57 1997
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From: joed@igc.org (Joe Dalsin)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Software for planning permaculture systems.
References: <Pine.SOL.3.91.970514113955.28239A-100000@calzone.oit.unc.edu> <Pine.PMDF.3.95.970515144643.541836603B-100000@stthomas.edu>
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I don't know of any software available but it's an interesting
question.  If you could have software what would it do?
Something like landscape design?  Or maybe a searchable
version of a design manual.  I ask because I'd consider writing
some software if I thought that permaculturalists would really use it.
I think that most people are better served by a good book and contact
with other people.

I was thinking about starting a web site where people could submit
drawings of their own designs and techniques.  A kind of living
book of Permaculture designs.  Perhaps the site could get permission
to use some existing published designs as well.  Books are still the
most useful "software" that I know of but a web site would allow the
occational designer to share with a large number of people.

Comments?  Ideas?  Other information exchange ideas?

Joe Dalsin - joed@igc.org

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed May 28 14:55:10 1997
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Date: 	Wed, 28 May 1997 14:48:03 -0400
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From: "Charland, Stacy" <CHARLANS@gm1.nigms.nih.gov>
To: "'permaculture@listserv.unc.edu'" <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Cc: "'joed@igc.org'" <joed@igc.org>
Subject: RE: Software for planning permaculture systems.
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I for one would love to see more diagrams available, like the one at  http://www.permaculture-institute.org/ 

Stacy 


-----Original Message-----
From:	joed@igc.org [SMTP:joed@igc.org]
Sent:	Wednesday, May 28, 1997 1:01 PM
To:	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject:	Re: Software for planning permaculture systems.

I don't know of any software available but it's an interesting
question.  If you could have software what would it do?
Something like landscape design?  Or maybe a searchable
version of a design manual.  I ask because I'd consider writing
some software if I thought that permaculturalists would really use it.
I think that most people are better served by a good book and contact
with other people.

I was thinking about starting a web site where people could submit
drawings of their own designs and techniques.  A kind of living
book of Permaculture designs.  Perhaps the site could get permission
to use some existing published designs as well.  Books are still the
most useful "software" that I know of but a web site would allow the
occational designer to share with a large number of people.

Comments?  Ideas?  Other information exchange ideas?

Joe Dalsin - joed@igc.org

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed May 28 19:48:20 1997
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From: Keith Elwell-Gavins <keitheg@tpgi.com.au>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: perma@eepo.com.au
Subject: Re: Software for planning permaculture systems.
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Joe Dalsin wrote:

> I was thinking about starting a web site where people could submit
> drawings of their own designs and techniques.  A kind of living
> book of Permaculture designs.  
> Comments?  Ideas?  Other information exchange ideas?
> 
> Joe Dalsin - joed@igc.org

Joe,

This is a great idea! One of the problems we have as permies is to see
design ideas and options for different sites. Each place is unique, and
no general textbook plan will provide all answers. Therefore, seeing
other 
permaculturalists' responses to various design briefs would be great.

Hope you can set it up...

The software idea is also worth developing. I have been experimenting
with using Corel Draw to draft plans by scanning site plans and then
overlaying with both imported and self-drawn symbols. It's a bit of a
fiddle, but the great advantage of using a vector-mapped drawing is the
ability to
rescale and zoom with no loss of definition. But I'd love to see a
dedicated
permaculture drafting program!


All the best, Keith.

'Every day the intelligent person learns something new, but every day
the wise person gives up some certainty'    The Buddha.

===================
Keith Elwell-Gavins
Canberra, Australia
===================

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 29 13:22:09 1997
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From: egidio reale <ecoeco@caribe.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: RE: Software for planning permaculture systems.
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>I think that most people are better served by a good book and contact
>with other people.

I definitely agree in this case.

>I was thinking about starting a web site where people could submit
>drawings of their own designs and techniques.  A kind of living
>book of Permaculture designs.  Perhaps the site could get permission
>to use some existing published designs as well.  Books are still the
>most useful "software" that I know of but a web site would allow the
>occational designer to share with a large number of people.

>Joe Dalsin - joed@igc.org

It sounds like a good idea, perhaps some space could be provided by the
same server; we should get their opinion.


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu May 29 23:50:54 1997
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Date: 	Thu, 29 May 1997 15:55:22 -0400
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: Kirby Fry <72530.1353@compuserve.com>,
        PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Shared ideas...
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Interesting and intriguing ideas from Keith Elwell-Gavins and Joe Dalsin...
Both ideas are valuable and would interact well with each other... 

Sharing designs is a wonderful idea, especially to we here in the Temperate
Zone, where the techniques of Permaculture as specified in the Design
manual sometimes need a degree of adaptation. I often find confusion among
experimenters resulting from taking tropically-adapted ideas verbatim from
"The Book" and applying them in higher-temperate latitudes. And the entire
permaculture "thing", albeit composed of many, many old -- even ancient --
ideas, is "new" enough that the sharing of ideas and applications is still
very important.

Keith's CorelDraw idea is great, the use of vector-maps instead of bit-maps
good also... iconic symbols could "easily" be produced by an
architecturally- or artistically-oriented person with a scanner, and a
customized version of CorelDraw, etc. could be the vehicle... licensing
problems, possibly. Or something which could be distributed for use with
CorelDraw that wouldn't be based on distribution of the actual program...
users would need their own CorelDraw.

I feel these kind of software solutions are important and am presently
working on a database for use with the Microsoft Access database program,
for use by non-profits to keep track of mailing lists, membership
categories, IRS tax-form-based accounting, etc. (not of much use to those
of you in Australia, of course, but the core idea is the same). Many people
who could be contributing to the body of information or work are, I find,
held back by those same details which others of us find less daunting... I
am having to produce the database for my own work, anyway, as Keith is
doing with his Corel program, and with a little fiddling in the end, these
types of fairly-involved efforts can be generalized for sharing.

Good luck with your CorelDraw project Keith, I hope someday to see a
generalized version offered which I and others can purchase from you or
your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

Jack Rowe
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
PO Box 9882
College Station, TX 77842
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri May 30 00:28:40 1997
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On Thu, 29 May 1997, Jack Rowe wrote:

> your organization! Ditto the archived design-plan collection, Joe. Perhaps
> we'll hear something from the already-overworked Lawrence London on Joe's
> idea. And of course, by using scanners, anyone's drawings can easily be
> turned into computer-viewable maps and shared among compatriot surfers... 

This is a great idea for an interactive permaculture page. 
Creating a resource, accessable by email, for archiving
PC design plan submissions from Permies around the world
is easy to do. I use the mhonarc mail2html converter/archiver
to store links to other PC resources that I run across. Mhonarc will
index articles by date and thread. Newsgroups are much better at doing 
all of this and I hope to make a few PC ones available soon. 

All you do to make your PC designs viewable for others in my
permaculture homepage is create your email with whatever message text
and file attachments you want (include all your graphics and any other
html code and  text-based documents, i.e. complete web pages with 
graphics and text) and send it to any of these destinations:
[have a look at some of these URLs to see how this works]

permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu   -  PC forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-info/maillist.html

permanet@sunsite.unc.edu    -  PC Links forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-links/maillist.html

organic@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Organic gardening forums
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/forums/organic-agriculture/maillist.html

rural@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Small Farm forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/agriculture/forums/small-farm-BB/maillist.html

dirtfarmer@sunsite.unc.edu    -  Regenerative agriculture forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/agriculture/feedback/dirtfarmer/maillist.html

renew-energy@sunsite.unc.edu    -  renewable energy forum
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/renewable-energy/mailarchives/renew-energy/maillist.html


Also, you might be interested in following the progress of
the soon-to-exist Usenet newsgroup, rec.gardens.ecosystems
in its homepage at:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/rge.html  
This should become a valuable resource for permaculturists.


Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
---------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Jun  6 20:32:33 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: great summer program on Sustainability and Permaculture (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:41:29 -0400
From: Gaia Education Outreach Inst. <geo@ic.org>
To: bioremediation@gzea.com, permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu,
    sustain-l@pimacc.pima.edu, ogl@ukcc.uky.edu, graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz,
    csa-l@prairienet.org, compost@listproc.wsu.edu,
    agenvir-l@pentagon.io.com
Subject: great summer program on Sustainability and Permaculture

Greetings!
        Below is the description of the Summer Institute in Sustainable
Living we are offering at the Gaia Education Outreach Institute in Temple,
New Hampshire.  There are still spaces open, though the program starts very
soon (June 5-21).  Please contact me with any questions about this or other
programs we offer.

Peace
Michael Duffin
Administrative Director
*****
        
                        GEOCOMMONS COLLEGE YEAR
            Summer Institute in Sustainable Living: June 5-28
             including Permaculture Design Course: June 5-20
             University of New Hampshire Summer Session, 1997

In the summer beauty of New England, up to thirty students and six faculty
will create a special learning community for sustainable living. Through
observation, lecture, demonstration, discussion, and hands-on learning in
ecological design, students will develop their practical skills and
knowledge for living sustainably and in harmony with the natural world. 

During the first two weeks, students will participate in a Permaculture
Design Course (PDC).  For over 25 years permaculture has been evolving
worldwide as a system of ecological principles and practices for
sustainable food, shelter, livelihood, and community. A major goal of the
PDC will be to design an educational eco-village for the Geocommons College
site at Derbyshire Farm, a beautiful 75-acre hilltop farm in southern New
Hampshire bordered by 2,000 acres of protected wilderness.

During the optional third week, students will plan steps for implementing
some of their permaculture designs, further develop their skills in
sustainable living, visit local innovative projects, write project papers,
and enjoy the beauties of the natural environment and community. 

This is a special opportunity to be guided by outstanding faculty in
ecological design and to cooperatively explore ways to apply new learnings
towards making one's own home, community, and campus more sustainable. The
daily schedule aims for a balance of physical, intellectual, emotional, and
spiritual elements as a conscious experiment in sustainable group living.
Topics and activities will include:

€       permaculture principles and ethics      
€       cooperative community processes and forms
€       organic food production and healthy diets       
€       sheet mulching, composting, and companion planting
€       bio-system mapping and site evaluation  
€       edible landscaping and forest gardens
€       design patterns and microclimates       
€       appropriate energy systems and shelter
€       economic and career considerations      
€       mindfulness practice, shared inspiration, celebrations

Courses and Credit:  Those attending the full three-week Sustainable Living
course (EC 687) will receive four UNH credits which can be readily
transferred to other schools. All students completing the PDC will be
certified as Permaculture Design Trainees and may use the term
"permaculture" in the pursuit of livelihood and educational uses. (See
reverse side for more information.)

Instructors:  
David Jacke - Nationally recognized master permaculturist with 12 years of
professional experience.
Cynthia Edwards - Professional landscaper for 20 yrs and int'l permaculture
development worker.
Dan Earle - Professor of landscape architecture, Louisiana State
University, and permaculture designer.
Bruce Kantner - Founder/director of GEO, UNH faculty in sustainable living,
organic farmer, builder.
Daniel Greenberg - GEO faculty, PhD in psychology and intentional communities.
Leslie Goldstein - Member of Earthlands Community, organic gardener, PDC
graduate.

Cost: $1,200 for 3-week Institute; $750 for 2-week PDC only. Both include
tuition, food, and tent space.
Priority for applications received before Arpil 30, 1997.  For more
information contact:
GAIA  EDUCATION  OUTREACH  INSTITUTE
Derbyshire Farm, Temple, NH  03084
PLEASE POST     (603) 654-6705  geo@igc.org     3/97
June 5-20, 1997 at GEO:
The Game of Eco-Village
A Permaculture Design Course

Eco-village Design
        As a human-designed ecosystem, the village is a fascinating study
in whole culture design.  The way our lives and communities are currently
organized creates massive ecological damage and social injustice.  How can
we pattern resources, technologies, and people in such a way as to form the
basis for regenerative, sustainable, and healthy communities?  

The Permaculture Approach
        As an ecological design approach and philosophy, permaculture has
many tools to offer.  The goal is to apply the principles, patterns, and
relationships inherent in natural systems to consciously designing
sustainable human cultures and repairing damaged ecosystems.  The
permaculture approach is applicable at any scale and in any climate of the
world-for farms, homes, and communities, urban and rural.

The Course
        The Game of Eco-Village is played on at least two levels.  The
first level is the community created by the participants, intended to be a
fun and engaging environment for learning about permaculture and
experiencing the design process.  The second level is the role play at the
core of the course curriculum: the participants are the eco-village
members, engaged in designing their own village on the course site, who
have hired the teaching staff as design process facilitators and
consultants.  Both levels of play are intended to model the community and
design processes that the course will teach.  
        The design effort involves participants in defining and refining
vision and goals, undertaking site analysis, and schematically designing
social, legal, and physical infrastructure, land use patterns, etc.  There
will be opportunity for those with more of an interest in home scale, farm
design, or other issues to spend their design time focused on these areas. 
 Most important is how all of these design elements interact to create a
resilient, functional system and support the honing of participants'
community and design skills.

Monadnock Eco-Village
        Current plans call for 12-15 households in the first building
cluster, residential and classroom facilities for 20 students, a
theater-movement-celebration space, green businesses, farm, and recreation
areas, and nature sanctuary on 75 or more acres of fields and forest. 
Adjoining property may be added.

Who Can Benefit From This Course?
        Anyone with an interest in communities, sustainable agriculture,
ecological design, education and/or homesteading: co-housers; community
members, activists, and organizers; landscape architects; planners;
architects; civil engineers; foresters; farmers; etc.  Students can receive
four undergraduate credits  from the University of New Hampshire through
GEO's three-week Summer Institute in Sustainable Living, June 5 - 28, which
includes this course as the first two weeks of the program.  

Accommodations, Food, and Participation
        Participants can camp either in their own tent or in the barn, or
can stay at local inns.  Food will be vegetarian, with as much locally
grown produce as possible.  All participants will need to take part in
helping create and live in our two-week learning community by sharing
rotating chores in the kitchen and other communal use areas and by
practicing the skills that community living entails.  Daily meditations,
involvement in design teams, and small support groups are required parts of
the course. In order to promote safe. healthy community living, no alcohol
or drugs will be allowed during the course.

Outcomes from the Course
        Successful course completion will result in certification as a
Permaculture Design Trainee, increased knowledge and skill in ecological
community design, and major progress towards the creation of Monadnock
Eco-Village.  Participants will have new tools and experiences for
community living, stronger capacities  for mindfulness, and feelings of
renewal and support in their personal development.  We look forward to your
joining us in the rich learnings and adventure of this experiment in
sustainable life education. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gaia Education Outreach Institute | Ph/Fax: 603/654-6705; geo@ic.org
Derbyshire Farm, Temple, NH 03084 |    www: http://www.ic.org/geo
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Jun  9 00:01:44 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture Design Course
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BUILDING THE NATURAL
COMMUNITY
Permaculture Design Course
September 6th-19th, 1997

        ...imagine...living in a community that is blended into the 
natural
environment.  Homes crafted from the native landscape are designed to heat
and cool themselves while remaining elegant and affordable.  Integrated
into the surrounding neighborhoods are natural water systems where food is
grown safe from harmful chemicals and waste is managed for productivity. 
Neighbors, young and old, routinely help one another by sharing resources
and skills.  Local needs are met by efficiently managing local resources
thereby reducing transportation and pollution. By design this community
saves you money while making leisure time more abundant.  Most 
importantly,
however, the design of this community preserves the Earths precious
resources.

        Through the simple and practical strategies offered by 
permaculture
design, a village lifestyle like this is not a dream.  By developing
climate-based zoning guidelines many such communities are emerging across
the U.S. and the world.  Seeking to emulate natures sustainable model,
permaculture design has become a globally recognized framework for an
environmentally benign system of land-use management.  In nature, total
resource efficiency is accomplished by managing waste for productivity and
balancing consumption with multi-functional contributions from each of the
elements of the system.  Permaculture Sciences design human communities
that model the same inter-connections and multiple functions found in
natural ecosystems.
        Though relatively new to development in the U.S., permaculture 
brings to
home owners and design professionals an innovative approach to planning,
building, and retrofitting.  Perma-culture design is now taught regularly
through regional groups, private colleges, and universities around the
world.  At the local bioregional level residential two-week training
courses are conducted as an information intensive means of disseminating
principles of permaculture design.
        From September 6th-19th, Permaculture West will be hosting a 
two-week
Permaculture Design Course at the Wild Thyme Farm near Oakville, WA. 
Located in the Chehalis river valley just 35 minutes South of Olympia, the
Wild Thyme Farm is an evolving education and resource center.  Situated
within its own watershed the farm features a 100 acre second growth 
forest,
turn-of-the-century barn, fruit & nut orchards, greenhouses, sauna,
gardens, hot tub, streams, pond, cottages, and various microclimates
ranging from ridge-top meadows to low-land marshes and flood plains.  Wild
Thyme Farm has been a retreat center since 1989 and integrative
permaculture principles have continually guided its evolution.  
        This two-week intensive design course will examine the 
fundamentals of
developing sustainable villages and communities that are bioregionally
unique.  Elements of village design to be discussed include: local
economics, appropriate building strategies, edible landscaping,
agro-forestry, cottage industries, aquaculture, mushroom cultivation, site
analysis, natural education, bamboo, livestock & wildlife, food forests,
systems theory, and much, much more.  Information is presented through 
such
mediums as: slide shows, lecture, hands-on demonstrations, field trips, 
and
observation walks.  Participants completing the entire course will receive
a Permaculture Design Course Graduate certificate.
        Instructors include: Larry Santoyo; a world renowned permaculture 
designer
& educator who has worked directly with Bill Mollison.  Larry is one of 
the
foremost urban permaculture designers in the U.S. and has developed
sustainable industry programs for several major U.S. corporations.  Paul
Stamets; owner of Fungi Perfecti, the largest mushroom research facility 
in
the NW.  Paul has been pioneering permaculture strategies for
re-integrating edible & medicinal mushrooms into residential & commercial
landscapes.  Simon Henderson; co-founder of Bamboo People, the NWs leading
bamboo research & consultation firm.  Simon has traveled the world
documenting bamboo cultivation and uses.  He is author of Raising the
Dragon: Bamboo Agroforestry in Vietnam.  Michael Pilarski; founder of
Friends of the Trees, a NW non-profit dedicated to reforesting the world. 
Michael has been a permaculture designer for over 15 years and has more
than two decades worth of experience in international networking and
sustainable natural resource management.  Joanne Lee; has founded the 
South
Sound Exchange, a local economic and bartering system for the Olympia 
area.
 She is also involved with co-housing initiatives in Thurston County.
                                                                
Cost: $675 (includes camping, materials, and all meals)
Accommodations: Camping is free.  Bunkhouse: $150.  Guesthouse: $200. 
Space is limited, please inquire as to availability.
Course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Permaculture West
            72 Mattson Rd.
            Oakville, WA 98568
            Ph: (360) 352-6509
            Fx: (360) 273-7117
            E-mail: permawest@olywa.net


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Jun  9 20:20:15 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: South Central Community Garden Conference This Summer in Houston, TX  
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June 9, 1997
Melanie Gross
MULEYA2@aol.com
South Central Community Garden Conference This Summer in Houston, TX 


Dear Community Gardeners and Supporters:

Urban Harvest, a  nonprofit community garden and orchard program in 
Houston, Texas, is proud to present the 
First Annual South Central Community Garden Conference, August 22 - 23, 
at the Houston Arboretum and Nature 
Center.  We are very excited about the event and we hope you can make the 
trip.  The conference will provide 
an informal, yet informative session for community gardeners, supporting 
agencies, and individuals.  
Participants will have the opportunity to network, share ideas and learn 
what fellow community gardeners are 
doing throughout the south central states.

Mohammed Nuru, Executive Director of the San Francisco League of Urban 
Gardeners (SLUG), will be our keynote 
speaker.  Panel discussions are planned for both days and topics will 
range from organizing a school garden to 
funding community gardens to developing market garden strategies.  
Community gardeners, horticulturists, 
teachers, and community development agencies will be our panelists.

The conference will end with a bus tour of several types of gardens 
affiliated with Urban Harvest.  If you are 
interested in taking the tour, please indicate so on the registration 
form.  There will be space at the 
arboretum for those who would like to set up a display of their program.  
If your organization is interested, 
please contact us by August 8th to reserve table space.

Enclosed is a copy of the tentative agenda and registration form.  If you 
have any questions, suggestions, or 
would like to serve on a panel, please call me at 713-880-5540.  You will 
receive a confirmation packet 
containing the final agenda and other conference materials by the first 
week in July.  We look forward to 
seeing you there!


Best regards:

Melanie Gross
MULEYA2@aol.com


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Jun  9 23:12:04 1997
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From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: CFV: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated (fwd)
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------- start of forwarded message -------
From: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
Reply-To: rge@infobahn.net
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,alt.sustainable.agriculture,
rec.gardens,rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens.roses,triangle.gardens,uk.rec.gardening
Subject: CFV: rec.gardens.ecosystems moderated
Organization: Usenet Volunteer Votetakers
Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org
Expires: 1 Jul 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Archive-Name: rec.gardens.ecosystems
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 23:17:40 GMT

                     FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
                moderated group rec.gardens.ecosystems

Newsgroups line:
rec.gardens.ecosystems	Ecosystems and organic gardening. (Moderated)

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 30 Jun 1997.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  Questions
about the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Proponent: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Votetaker: Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>

RATIONALE: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Organic Gardening, the magazine, conducted a survey in 1995 showing that the
number of home gardeners just in the U.S. had grown to a total of 78
million. A little over one third of those home gardenrs used mostly organic
gardening techniques, a little over one third used mostly non-organic
techniques, and the remaining one third used mostly a combination of organic
and non-organic techniques. The trend is towards increased participation in
organic gardening especially with starting home gardeners. There is no
existing newsgroup clearly focused on organic gardening or organic
techniques.

Successful organic gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening
because it requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural
community inter-relates with the physical and chemical enviroment of the
home garden. Rec.gardens.ecosystems is being proposed as a newsgroup with an
extensive FAQ dealing with the many issues of organic gardening and the ways
these issues inter-relate with the ecosystems of the garden and the larger
community.

The resources are in place for: 1.) Rec.gardens.ecosystems to have its own
website; 2.) to have the on-topic articles archived and made available
through WWW; and 3.) to have the group FAQ available via WWW and FTP.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems would also employ a robot moderator backed by human
moderators to minimize problems with cross-posting and to help keep the
discussions focused. The proposed newsgroup has the potential to be an
important resource for many home gardeners.

CHARTER: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Reasonable expectations in terms of scope and content:

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is intended as a newsgroup for the discussion
of the ways nature works within the garden. Successful organic
gardening is more demanding than non-organic gardening because it
requires a working knowledge of the ways the total natural community
interrelates with the physical and chemical environment of the home
garden. This is the basic meaning of the term, ecosystems. The reason
for selecting the name, "rec.gardens.ecosystems" was to emphasize that
the focus of this newsgroup is on gardening in cooperation with
nature. Michael Pollan said, "... the garden is a middle ground
between nature and culture." That middle ground should be a place
friendly to both sides.

Organic gardening can be defined as gardening with environmentally
friendly materials and environmentally friendly cultural practices.
Those materials considered as "environmentally friendly" are, for the
most part, those materials approved for use and listed in the
International Certification Standards of the Organic Crop Improvement
Association. A copy of that Standard will be included as Appendix A in
the group FAQ. Those practices that are considered as "environmentally
friendly" are those practices traditionally associated with organic
gardening and/or Integrated Pest Management.

Rec.gardens.ecosystems is also proposed as a newsgroup with a
Frequently Asked Questions or FAQ component. The FAQ will attempt to
answer the bulk of the questions asked by home gardeners employing
organic gardening techniques. Because the ecosystem of one area is
often so different from the ecosystem of another and because organic
answers tend to be so regional, the content of the FAQ will be based
on discussions in the group and on the existing knowledge and
experience of volunteers who help maintain the FAQ.

The basic content will be as follows:

     Index:

     Section A: Basic Orientation & Definition of Terms
     Section B: Soils: Structure, use of Soil Amendments & Mulches
     Section C: Composting & Use of Compost
     Section D: Plant Nutrition
     Section E: Cultural Practices
     Section F: Botany for the Home Gardener
     Section G: Plant & Soil Disease; Treatment & Prevention
     Section H: Plant & Soil Pests; Treatment & Prevention
     Section I: Gardening for Wildlife
     Section J: Growing Edible Crops/Growing Organic Foods & Products
     Section K: Vegetarian & Vegan Gardening

     Appendix A: OCIA's International Certification Standard
     Appendix B: Recommended Reading
     Appendix C: Related Newsgroups, Websites, & Off-line Addresses
     Appendix D: Moderation Policy
     Appendix E: Glossary of Botanical Terms

An updated copy of the FAQ will be posted in rec.gardens.ecosystems
every two weeks. The FAQ Maintainers may decide to change the
posting frequency if and when the FAQ becomes available by other
means such as FTP, WWW or Automated E-mail.

Maintainer: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Maintainer: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug>

Note:The FAQ maintainers will make a concerted effort to keep the
content of the FAQ current, relevant, and accurate. The information in
the FAQ can be used freely but at one's own risk. The FAQ maintainers
can not be held responsible for any damage caused by the information
in the FAQ.

Reasonable expectations of rec.gardens.ecosystems as a whole:

Gardening with just environmentally friendly materials coupled with
just environmentally friendly cultural practices and getting good
results requires a working knowledge of the ecosystems operating in
that particular garden. For the most part, it is a more complicated
way to garden. The reader should expect some of the discussions to be
relatively technical.

Moderation Policy:

The moderation policies for rec.gardens.ecosystems have a number of
goals. One goal is to eliminate or reduce cross postings. The only
crossposted articles allowed are administrative postings like RFDs
and CFVs. A second goal is to help the discussions stay focused on
ecosystems and organic gardening. A third goal is to discourage
inappropriate postings. The moderation system consists of a robo-
moderator supported by human moderators. The planed moderation
program is expected to meet these goals.

The robomoderator is intended as the primary "moderator at work". It
has the ability and is given the authority to perform three functions
during periods in which it is the primary moderator: 1.) To reject cross
posted articles or articles containing binaries, (PGP signatures O.K).
2.) To check whether the poster has engaged in off-topic postings (such
as, but not restricted to, ‘flames' or non-authorized commercial
postings) and attempts to continue such postings even after an
explicit request by the moderating team has been sent that such
practice cease. In the event that both conditions are met, the article
is referred to the human moderators for consideration. 3.) To approve
and post all other articles independent of the human moderators.

Except for forged messages, the moderators will not cancel any
messages. The human moderators may update the robomoderator
so as to reduce the number of off-topic postings. It should be noted
that as the robomoderator is usally the only moderator at work, some
amount of off-topic (see below) posts should be expected.

The responsibilities of the human moderators are to maintain the
robomoderator and to handle those situations that require individual
attention. When the human moderators see a need to shift moderation
to their control, they will first post an advanced notice on
rec.gardens.ecosystems stating the intent to shift to human moderation
(assisted by the robomoderator) and state the reasons for doing so.
The human moderators take over for an unspecified length of time
and will be assisted by the robomoderator checking for cross-posts,
binaries, and approved posters. The human moderators may elect to give
auto-approval status to any number of posters during those periods of
human moderation. All human moderators have the right to accept or
reject articles for rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The reasoning behind the temporary shifting to human moderation is to
provide the human moderators with the means to deal with difficult
situations, these include but are not restricted to flamewars and a
high percentage of off-topic postings. Articles that are blatantly
commercial and have nothing to do with home gardening or articles that
contain foul or offensive language, e.g., flames,  are considered
inappropriate for rec.gardens.ecosystems. Articles that are aimed at
demeaning individuals as a result of their age, nationality, race,
religion, gender or sexual orientation are also considered
inappropriate. In the event that such an article should appear, the
human moderator would contact the author, attach a copy of the group
charter as a reference, and request the author's cooperation. In the
event that all efforts to gain cooperation fail, the human moderator
may elect to have all future articles from that author auto-referred
to human moderators for individual consideration. The author would be
notified by the human moderator if the decision was to reject the
article.

Articles advocating the routine application of materials prohibited by
the International Certification Standards, as specified in Appendix A
of the group FAQ, are considered inappropriate as well. The same
general procedures as described above would be followed with the
exception that if such a posting would actually appear in
rec.gardens.ecosystems, the human moderator would also post an article
stating that the application of that material in that paticular way
violates the International Certification Standard.

As technology and circumstance change, it will undoubtedly be
necessary to update the moderation policy from time to time. In which
case, the changes would be posted to rec.gardens.ecosystems. The group
FAQ will also contain the most recent version of the moderation policy
in Appendix D.

Commercial Postings:

Articles announcing or promoting commercial products, services, or
publications by commercial sources may be posted provided that they
are appropriate in an organic gardening program. The articles must be
approved by the moderator prior to posting. Commercial postings
without pre-post approval will be considered as inappropriate and
treated as above.

Replacement of moderators:

Moderators may be replaced in a vote organized by an independent
vote-counter using the automated UseVote software. The voting period
lasts for a  period of 20 to 30 days, stated in advance in the Call
For Votes. The Call For Votes must appear in rec.gardens.ecosystems.
Moderators are replaced when the replacement candidate obtains a 2/3
majority with a minimal difference of 100 votes. The results of the
vote are published in rec.gardens.ecosystems.

The original proponent for a moderator replacement is allowed one
article in the group calling for support. The subjectline for that
Call For Support should read:"Moderator replacement, Call For
Support". The formal replacement process requires the support of at
least ten past-posters with the number verified by the moderator
group. A formal discussion on the replacement may then begin. The
subjectline for the formal discussion should read:"Moderator
replacement, Request For Discussion". Calls For Support and Requests
For Discussion will only be accepted when at least six months have
passed since the last request for discussion of moderator replacement.

Resignation of moderators, expansion of office:

Moderators in office may resign or choose to increase their number. In
such case, they may appoint a new moderator without a formal group
vote. Anyone who would like to volunteer to become a moderator should
notify one of the moderators. The moderators may ask the group for
their opinions regarding a candidate moderator. Those who would wish
to reply should do so by sending their comments directly to the
moderators by private e-mail rather than posting in the group. The
acceptance of a new moderator is then posted in
rec.gardens.ecosystems.

Conflicts between moderators:

The moderator team will be supervised by a Moderator Supervisor who is
not engaged in actual moderation. If the moderators have a conflict
that they can not resolve by themselves, the Moderator Supervisor
decides the issue. The proposed moderators propose the first Moderator
Supervisor. The Moderator Supervisor may propose their successors to
the moderating team. The moderating team must agree on the selection
of the follow-up supervisor.

END CHARTER.

MODERATOR INFO: rec.gardens.ecosystems

Moderator: Bill Robinson <roseguy@flash.net>
Moderator: Ronald Zwaagstra <R.Zwaagstra@ppsw.rug.nl>
Administrative contact address: ecosys-admin@sunsite.unc.edu
Article submission address: ecosys-submit@sunsite.unc.edu

END MODERATOR INFO.

HOW TO VOTE:

Follow these instructions *exactly*!  Votes are counted by computer.
You should send E-MAIL (posts to a newsgroup are invalid) to:

    rge@infobahn.net

Please do not assume that just replying to this message will work.
Check the address before you mail your vote.  Your mail message
should contain one and only one of the following vote statements:

    I vote YES on rec.gardens.ecosystems
    I vote NO on rec.gardens.ecosystems

    Voter name:

If your mail software does not indicate your real name (for example, AOL
does not), include _exactly_ the statement above on a _separate_ line
and add your name after the colon.  Having your name in your signature line
is NOT enough!  Do NOT join the lines together or remove the words
"Voter name"!

You may also vote ABSTAIN (which records an empty vote) or CANCEL (which
removes any earlier votes).  ABSTAIN does not affect the final vote count
in any way but is listed, whereas CANCEL is not.

If these instructions are unclear, please consult the Introduction to
Usenet Voting or the Usenet Voting FAQ at http://www.hut.fi/~jpatokal/uvv/.

IMPORTANT VOTING PROCEDURE NOTES:

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One vote per person, one account
per voter.  Votes must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.
Anonymous, forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by
WWW/HTML/CGI forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply.  One person, one vote.  Votes
must be mailed directly from the voter to the votetaker.  Anonymous,
forwarded or proxy votes are not valid.  Votes mailed by WWW/HTML/CGI
forms are considered to be anonymous votes.

Vote counting is automated.  Failure to follow these directions may
mean that your vote does not get counted.  If you do not receive an
acknowledgment of your vote within three days contact the votetaker
about the problem.  It's your responsibility to make sure your vote
is registered correctly.  Duplicate votes are resolved in favor of
the most recent valid vote.  Addresses and votes of all voters will
be published in the final voting results post.

The purpose of a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of
persons who would read a proposed newsgroup.  Soliciting votes from
disinterested parties defeats this purpose.  Please do not distribute
this CFV.  If you must, direct people to the official CFV as posted
to news.announce.newgroups.  Distributing pre-marked or otherwise
edited copies of this CFV is generally considered to be vote fraud.
When in doubt, ask the votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

Pointers directing readers to this CFV will be posted in these groups:

The bionet.* groups

-- 
Dave Cornejo <dave@dogwood.com>
------- end of forwarded message -------

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Jun 12 21:29:41 1997
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Date: 	Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: South Central Community Garden Conference This Summer in Houston, TX (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:20:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: UrbanHarve@aol.com
To: community_garden@ag.arizona.edu
Cc: school_garden@ag.arizona.edu, msimpson@zoo.uvm.edu,
    groland@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu, rwelsh@gaes.griffin.peachnet.edu,
    london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: South Central Community Garden Conference This Summer in Houston, TX

The conference is August 22 Fri 1 pm through Saturday 12 noon. Community
Garden tours are in early afternoon by registration. For written materials,
interested should send us the postal address.  Thanks. Bob Randall for Urban
Harvest

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Jun 20 15:50:28 1997
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Message-Id: <v0300780dafd08e67a294@[206.184.135.139]>
Date: 	Fri, 20 Jun 1997 12:46:10 -0700
Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: David Webb <host@bioponic.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: an inquiry about ecological significance of millepedes and other 
    worms that surfae in and after rains in tropical environment
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>Date: Fri, 20 Jun 97 08:54:13+050
>Reply-To: anilg@iimahd.ernet.in
>Sender: INDKNOW-owner@u.washington.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>From: anilg@iimahd.ernet.in (Prof. Anil Gupta)
>To: consbio@u.washington.edu
>Cc: indknow@u.washington.edu
>Subject: an inquiry about ecological significance of millepedes and other
>    worms that surfae in and after rains in tropical environment
>
>I am very keen to know form some one about teh ecological, cultural and
>zoological significance of millepedes and centipedes ( and other crawing
>insects) which come out in large swarms --a is it a right term? durig and
>after rains in tropical environments. Some colleagues in our campus will
>like these to be killed by sprays. I do no thik it is such a good idea at
>all. I am aware that these worms must be digesting organic matter. But I
>need some more scientific information to be able to dissuade coleagues from
>taking soem drastic action. In any case they can npot eradicate it from all
>over the campus.
>
>What are these indicators of? If these are in unusually inlarge numbers,
>does it mean more healthy eco-systems or otherwise.
>
>
>Please let me have as much scientific information as colleagues can find time
>for putting togther.
>
>are there some local cultural taboos or myths associated with these
>creatures also?
>
>
>thanks
>
>anil k gupta
>p.s. pardon my ignorance pl.
>
***********

DAVID WEBB
Director of Communications
BIOPONIC INTERNATIONAL
767 Lincoln Ave., #3
San Rafael, CA 94901
415-460-1994   415-460-1996 fax
Email: host@bioponic.com
Internet: http://www.bioponic.com
"Re-Greening the Planet...Airponically"


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Jun 22 22:41:26 1997
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Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE are finally here!
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-==+==-
 !NEW!
-==+==-

InterGarden newsgroups at sunSITE for permaculture, gardening, 
CSA, homesteading, homebuilding, energy, nutrition-herbs-health 

They:
- are not Usenet newsgroups. 
- are carried only by the sunSITE newsserver
- are all unmoderated (so far)
- all have non-expiring spools (all articles are 
  saved in a permanent archive for future access)

How to access them:
-------------------
Add the news host: news.sunsite.unc.edu to your news reader

Or, point your Web browser to this URL:  
--------------------------------------
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/[put newsgroup name here]


So far these newsgroups have been created:
--------------------------------------

news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.news   permaculture.news
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.design   permaculture.design
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.information   permaculture.information
*
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/biointensive-gardening   biointensive-gardening
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/community-supported-agriculture   community-supported-agriculture
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/gardening.tools   gardening.tools
*
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/homesteading.skills   homesteading.skills
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/homesteading.self-sufficiency   homesteading.self-sufficiency
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/homesteading.homepower   homesteading.homepower
*
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/renewable.energy   renewable.energy
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/homebuilding   homebuilding
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/woodworking   woodworking
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/metalworking   metalworking
*
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/farming-connection   The Sustainable Farming Connection's farming-connection
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/alt.sustainable.agriculture   alt.sustainable.agriculture
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/alt.agriculture.fruit   alt.agriculture.fruit


If you have a topic that's not covered by any of these groups 
and you would like a newsgroup created for it, let me know 
and I'll consider adding it to our list.

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
Venaura Farm
mailto:london@nuteknet.com
http://nuteknet.com/london
----------------------------------

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Jun 23 15:18:28 1997
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Date:	Sat, 21 Jun 1997 12:30:47 -0600
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From:	"David Rinck" <drinck@infosel.net.mx>
To:	<permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Pest Management for Citrus Trees
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Hi!
We are an international group of permaculturists living in Mexico.  We have
been asked to give a course for the Associacion of Citrus Growers in the
Sierra Gorda area of Mexico (subtropics).  We were curious if anyone has
any information on pest management for citrus trees?  If you don't want to
clog up this listserv you could email us directly at drinck@infosel.net.mx.
 If someone happens to have   information in hard-copy format our fax
number is (52-434)40097.

Thank You,
David Rinck


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Jul  2 10:02:12 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture Design Course CA
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From: Joe Dalsin <joed@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.sustainable.agriculture
Subject: Permaculture Design Course CA
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:06:57 -0700 (PDT)


--------------------------------------------------------------------
  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSES WITH BILL MOLLISON AND SCOTT PITTMAN
--------------------------------------------------------------------
    (Permaculture <-- Permanent AgriCulture / Permanent Culture)

The only classes with Bill Mollison in the Northern Hemisphere in 1997!

    Bill Mollison has announced his retirement from teaching!
         This may be your last chance to take a course
              from the creator of Permaculture!

Southern California June 16-27, Near Santa Barbara
Northern California July 14-25, Near Half Moon Bay

This is a two week residential course with 72 hours of instruction.  

What are some of the things you'll learn in this course? 

 How to: 
  - Turn deserts into prairies within a year or two. 
  - "Read the land" for it's potential. 
  - Design inexpensive, environmentally sound buildings and 
    incorporate them ecologically into the landscape. 
  - Find land to farm in your community for $1 per acre per year. 
  - More than double the yield from your rangeland while 
    increasing soil fertility & the health of your herds. 
  - Avoid disaster; fully and thoroughly check out a piece of 
    land, inventory it's resources and problems before buying it. 
  - Become an Ecological Land Developer and provide as many as 
    three middle class incomes per acre in land based, value 
    added, agricultural enterprises. 
  - Rehabilitate destroyed soils to support limited agriculture 
    in a few months. 
  - Assemble high yield food forests. 
  - Create Oases in drylands-Growing trees without irrigation 
    using only 6 inches of rainfall. 
  - Desalinate salted land 

What's Special about these Courses? 

  Of course, any time Bill Mollison teaches, the course is special. 

Other unique aspects are: 

  - Our strong international recruitment, you'll be learning
    alongside colleagues from other countries. 

  - New material developed since the publication of Permaculture: A
    Designers' Manual. For instance, detailed information on the 
    nuts and bolts of CSA farming, retirement crops, how to devise 
    your farm/organization's legal structure to avoid paying 
    unnecessary taxes, examples of making a living in ways that 
    don't cause you to compromise your ecological/social values, 
    and Mollison's "Next Phase of Permaculture"-designing whole, 
    "self-building" fully self-sustaining towns. 
          
  - Invaluable new written handouts, illustrations & resource lists. 

  - Food will be largely organic and purchased or donated directly 
    from the farmers who produce it!!! 
  
  - Special guest presentations in the evenings. 

  - Scholarships to encourage participation by people of diverse 
    cultural and economic backgrounds. 
  
  - "Trade show" day with suppliers and manufacturers of 
    appropriate tech products which may be relevant to your own projects. 
  
  - College credit, and PCA credits applied for. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more information check out the Web site at: 
      www.permaculture-institute.org

Or write Dave Blume at: dblume@permaculture-institute.org

Or write "real" mail to:

International Institute for Ecological Agriculture(IIEA)
PO Box 620930
Woodside, CA  94062-0930

Tel: 415-365-2993, Fax: 415-355-2241

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Jul  2 16:27:19 1997
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Date: 	Wed, 2 Jul 1997 13:19:59 -0700
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From: David Webb <host@bioponic.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture Design Course CA
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IF YOU'RE UNABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN BILL MOLLISON'S CLASSES (BELOW),
NORTHERN CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS CAN ALSO OBTAIN "HANDS-ON" EXPERIENCE
YEAR-ROUND AT THE OCCIDENTAL ARTS & ECOLOGY CENTER.

FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: DAVE HENSON <dhenson@igc.apc.org>

David Webb
Bioponic International
http://www.bioponic.com
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSES WITH BILL MOLLISON AND SCOTT PITTMAN
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>    (Permaculture <-- Permanent AgriCulture / Permanent Culture)
>
>The only classes with Bill Mollison in the Northern Hemisphere in 1997!
>
>    Bill Mollison has announced his retirement from teaching!
>         This may be your last chance to take a course
>              from the creator of Permaculture!
>
>Southern California June 16-27, Near Santa Barbara
>Northern California July 14-25, Near Half Moon Bay
>




From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Jul  2 17:24:37 1997
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Date: 	Wed, 02 Jul 1997 14:19:31 -0700
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Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture Design Course CA
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At 01:19 PM 7/2/97 -0700, David Webb wrote:
>IF YOU'RE UNABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN BILL MOLLISON'S CLASSES (BELOW),
>NORTHERN CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS CAN ALSO OBTAIN "HANDS-ON" EXPERIENCE
>YEAR-ROUND AT THE OCCIDENTAL ARTS & ECOLOGY CENTER.
>
>FOR MORE INFORMATION, CONTACT: DAVE HENSON <dhenson@igc.apc.org>

Physical contact info:

Occidental Arts and Ecology Center (OAEC)
15290 Coleman Valley Road, Occidental, CA 95465
tel: (707) 874-1557 fax (707) 874-1558

I believe there is one more Design Course scheduled at OAEC this summer,
from August 8-22.

This is being taught by several designers including Penny Livingston and
OAEC's Brock Dolman, and apparently will focus a bit more on the Northern
California bioregions than Bill Mollinson's class.  Cost is $750 including
lodging.  I'm signed up for this class, and am greatly looking forward to it.

Loren
--
Loren Davidson      
loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"Avoid cliches like the plague"  -- Anon.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Jul  3 10:04:11 1997
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Date: 	Sat, 21 Jun 1997 08:15:25 -0700
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From: "Permaculture West" <permawest@olywa.net>
To: <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: Permaculture Design Course CA
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Building the
Natural Community
A two-week intensive Permaculture Design Course

Date: September 6th-19th, 1997
Location: Wild Thyme Farm
	       Oakville, WA

Description: Wild Thyme Farm, a 140 acre evolving permaculture site and
resource center, is located in the Chehalis river valley just 35 minutes
South of Olympia, WA.  Situated within its own watershed the farm features
a 100 acre second growth forest, turn-of-the-century barn, fruit & nut
orchards, greenhouses, sauna, gardens, hot tub, streams, pond, cottages,
and various micro-climates ranging from ridge-top meadows to low-land
marshes and flood plains.  Wild Thyme Farm has been a retreat center since
1989 and integrative permaculture principles have guided its evolution.  
	This two-week intensive design course will examine the fundamentals of
developing sustainable villages and communities that are bioregionally
unique.  Elements of village design to be discussed include: local
economics, appropriate building strategies, edible landscaping,
agroforestry, cottage industries, aquaculture, mushroom cultivation, site
analysis, natural education, bamboo, livestock & wildlife, food forests,
systems theory, and much, much more.  Information is presented through such
mediums as slide shows, lecture, hands-on demonstrations, field trips, and
observation walks.  Participants completing the entire course will receive
a Permaculture Design Course Graduate certificate.
	Instructors include: Larry Santoyo; a world renowned permaculture designer
& educator who has worked directly with Bill Mollison.  Larry is one of the
foremost urban permaculture designers in the U.S. and has developed
sustainable industry programs for several major U.S. corporations.  Paul
Stamets; owner of Fungi Perfecti, the largest mushroom research facility in
the NW.  Paul has been pioneering permaculture strategies for
re-integrating edible & medicinal mushrooms into residential & commercial
landscapes.  Simon Henderson; co-founder of Bamboo People, a NW bamboo
research & consultation firm.  Simon has traveled the world documenting
bamboo cultivation and uses.  He is author of Raising the Dragon: Bamboo
Agroforestry in Southeast Asia.  Michael Pilarski; founder of Friends of
the Trees, a NW non-profit dedicated to reforesting the world.  Michael has
been a permaculture designer for over 15 years and has more than two
decades worth of experience in international networking and sustainable
natural resource management.  Joanne Lee; has founded the South Sound
Exchange, a local economic and bartering system for the Olympia area.  She
is also involved with co-housing initiatives in Thurston County.

Cost: $675 (includes tuition, camping, materials, and all meals.
Accommodations: Camping is free.  Limited bunkhouse accommodations: $150. 
Guesthouse rooms: $200.  Please inquire as to availability.
Course is limited to 25 participants.
To register send a $75 deposit to:

	     Permaculture West
	     72 Mattson Rd.
	     Oakville, WA 98568
	     Ph: (360) 352-6509
	     Fx: (360) 273-7117
	     E-mail: permawest@olywa.net

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Jul  8 11:11:32 1997
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Date: 	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:53:31 +-900
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Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: Jonathan Bentley <jwb@sanynet.or.jp>
To: "'permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu'" <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: drylands permaculture
X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
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Hi
I recently read about a publication that focuses on permaculture in arid 
zones. It's called PERMACULTURE DRYLANDS JOURNAL. Does anyone know if they 
have a website or email address?

here's the snailmail address:

Permaculture Drylands Institute
P.O. Box 156
Santa Fe, NM 87504-0156		thanks!

					Jonathan Bentley

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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M`0```&$`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!P97)M86-U;'1U<F5 
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M" $$@ $`%@```&1R>6QA;F1S('!E<FUA8W5L='5R90":" $%@ ,`#@```,T'
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M````0S,X1#4V-C1"0D8T1# Q,4(Q,3,T-#0U-3,U-# P,# `U 8!`Y &`$ #
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:`$/3R:V+O $>`#T``0````$`````````=]<`
`
end

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Jul  8 12:09:54 1997
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From: robert.gordon@Central.Sun.COM (Rob Gordon)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: drylands permaculture
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A quick search turns up:

http://www3.ic.org/user/cmty/fic/cdir/res/PermacultureDrylands.html


However, www3.ic.org host is not found. :(

> From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Jul  8 09:56 MDT 1997
> Date: 	Tue, 8 Jul 1997 23:53:31 +-900
> From: Jonathan Bentley <jwb@sanynet.or.jp>
> To: "'permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu'" <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
> Subject: drylands permaculture
> X-Ms-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00
> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
> 
> Hi
> I recently read about a publication that focuses on permaculture in arid 
> zones. It's called PERMACULTURE DRYLANDS JOURNAL. Does anyone know if they 
> have a website or email address?
> 
> here's the snailmail address:
> 
> Permaculture Drylands Institute
> P.O. Box 156
> Santa Fe, NM 87504-0156		thanks!
> 
> 					Jonathan Bentley
> 
> begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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> M`0``Q0$``,T"``!,6D9U^DPE//\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,`4 +R"0(`8V@*P'-E
> M=#(W!@`&PP*#,@/%`@!P<D)Q$>)S=&5M`H,S=P+D!Q,"@'T*@ C/"=D[\18/
> M,C4U`H *@0VQ"V#@;F<Q,#,44 L*%%'%"_)C`$ @2&D*CQH<%$D@%A!C"?!T
> M;'EQ'1%A9" !H A@!4!A""!P=0)@:6-A=')I`B @=!& !4 "$&-N=1&P!" ?
> M$7 $D #!=>1L= AP92 +@!WP!1 M'>!Z`B 'D"X<\'0G<P0@'M!L; F "N$;
> M^B `4$5234%#54P`5%5212!$4EF03$%.1 7P2D\D0,A.04PAX$1O!Y$`<,)Y
> M(:$@:VYO!^ &D&T?,64=D!& =B#P'F!W_&5B`) 3T" `!< 3X MPFP,@'=!D
> M%A $$#\@&Q4?&Q4F\!80(B$FX2!S;BLH<2AJ.BE,4"!:1'+J>1CQ9 0@20" 
> M'O @P!,3T"QF+D\AX$)O>/ @,34V&Q\C& 81`9 0($9E+ >P32 XP#<U,#0M
> M,"_!#(*'`S S(A]!;FMS(2D]^S,8-6U*`B >X#/!+W =4M<G`!O=$U!O$]!C
> M!4 O]045,0`YP ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ``<P`$/3R:V+O % ``@P
> :`$/3R:V+O $>`#T``0````$`````````=]<`
> `
> end
> 
> 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Jul  8 13:49:30 1997
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From: "Steve Diver" <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
To: Jonathan Bentley <jwb@sanynet.or.jp>
Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: drylands permaculture
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> Hi
> I recently read about a publication that focuses on permaculture in arid 
> zones. It's called PERMACULTURE DRYLANDS JOURNAL. Does anyone 
> know if they have a website or email address?

The following information is from The Permaculture FAQ, May 1997 
version (not posted on web yet).  A second arid lands publication is
included fyi.  

Steve Diver

===============================================
Permaculture Drylands Journal
Permaculture Drylands Institute
P.O. Box 156
Santa Fe, NM  87504-0156
(505) 983-0663
Cost: $25, 3 issues per year 
http://www.amug.org/~shadetre/Perma.html

Permaculture Drylands Journal (formerly Sustainable Living in
Drylands) is published in April, August, and December by the
Permaculture Drylands Education and Research Institute. It focuses on
permaculture concepts and designs for arid lands, with a heavy focus
on New Mexico and Arizona.  PDJ has published articles on straw bale
buildings, solar box cookers, dryland farming, and much more; back
issues are available.  PDI offers a regular series of Permaculture
Design Courses.   

Dry Country News
Box 23-J
Radium Springs, NM 88054
Cost:  $10, 4 issues per year
http://www.zianet.com/drynews/

Dry Country News is devoted to Earth-based, low-impact living in the
American Southwest.  Whether you call it homesteading, permaculture,
or sustainable living, Dry Country News is packed with information of
interest to desert dwellers everywhere.  Topics covered include
alternative construction methods (straw bale, cob, adobe, etc.),
gardening in our difficult desert climate, solar energy techniques
and applications, desert herbs for food and medicine, sustainable
irrigation methods (rainwater catchments, drip, etc.) and much more.
===============================================

 

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Jul 26 14:12:33 1997
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Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:01:20 +0100
From: niamh joyce <N.P.Joyce@hw.ac.uk>
Subject: Some information on European Pc groups
Organization: SUNSITE
CC: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Newsgroups: permaculture.information


Hello
I am a postgraduate student in Heriot Watt University, Edinburgh,
Scotland. My MSC course is Environmental Pollution Control Management.
As part of my research I am reviewing Permaculture in Britain and
Europe.I am trying to find as many groups,or organisations or
individuals who are involved in Permaculture.Also anyone who is involved
in teaching permaculture.
If you are someone who is involved in Permaculture or know someone who
is...could you contact me at the following email and snail mail
addresses to let me know what way you are involved etc..

Thank you for all your help

Niamh Joyce

N.P.Joyce@hw.ac.uk

And Parkstown, Ballivor, Co. Meath, Ireland.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Aug  6 22:02:30 1997
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Subject: permacultural orchard (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 1997 14:21:31 -0700
From: Ralph Hertle <Ralph.Hertle@stud.uni-hannover.de>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: permacultural orchard

Hi!

  I am doing a thesis paper on orchard management to produce apples for 
juice. Having read Fukuoka and Mollison, I find their thoughts very 
interesting, however not detailed enough to apply them to my problem. 
Also, in Northern Germany, permacultural horticulture does not seem to 
work well enough to use it commercially. The Kennedys, who have been 
setting up the permacultural idea for Germany, could not help me yet with 
my particular problem.
  So, maybe, you could hint me to someone in a similar climatic situation 
who is running an orchard or would know something about that. 

  Thanks a lot,

  sincerely Ralph

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 04:25:13 1997
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Howdy All,

I am new to this list, and have only a beginning understanding of
permaculture. Would it be possible to email me (or post) a few good
general resources on permaculture? Preferably on-line resources since
those are the most easily accessible, but books are good.

Sincerely,
Mike Ray

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 14:12:48 1997
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From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: permacultural resources
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 s>
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At 01:21 AM 8/7/97 -0700, Mike Ray wrote:

>I am new to this list, and have only a beginning understanding of
>permaculture. Would it be possible to email me (or post) a few good
>general resources on permaculture? Preferably on-line resources since
>those are the most easily accessible, but books are good.

Mike, as yet there aren't too many good online sources for general
Permaculture information.  The best places to go for learning about
Permaculture at this time are:

1) definitely read Bill Mollison's books if you haven't.  Start with
"Introduction to Permaculture" and then move on to the "Designer's Manual"
when you're ready to get more serious.

2) Subscribe to one or more of the printed journals published by
Permaculturists around the world, like Permaculture International Journal,
Permaculture Activist, etc.  These journals also make available a lot of
reading material you can order from them.

3) Take a workshop or design class in your area.  Hands-on is a great way
to learn and also to meet other folks in your region who are doing
permaculture.  These workshops are generally advertised in the journals.

That said, there are a few places to go for online information.  If you
haven't checked out the wonderful InterGarden site hosted by the owner of
this list, Lawrence London, he lists a plethora of links here:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/index.html

I myself have a permaculture-related site called The Plant Tracker, a
searchable database of 7000 species of useful plants.  The database itself
was compiled by Plants For A Future, a UK-based Permaculture group who have
an excellent web site of their own.

My Plant Tracker address is:

http://www.axis-net.com/pfaf

There's a link to Plants For A Future's site from there, too.  Sometimes
the search engine has been down lately because there's been so much
traffic, but keep trying!

I will also likely be doing more Permaculture related Internet work in the
future, including for Bill Mollison, so I'll keep you posted as this develops.

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 14:29:29 1997
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To Mike Ray and the others who want permaculture easily, use your internet
access to go to any of the search engines, from Yahoo! to Excite! by way of
Alta Vista and Magellan (among many search engines). Type in PERMACULTURE on
the search line, click on the search icon or hit your return key and WOW! you
will be inundated by permaculture references and links around the world.

Milo Clark
Berkeley CA USA

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To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
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=============================================
            Permaculture Web Links & Discussion Groups*
=============================================
*From:   The Permaculture FAQ, Version 1.4
*Note:    Version 1.4 will be posted at new web site in September
               Version 1.3 is listed as No. 51 below
=============================================
1. Permaculture Mailing List in U.S.A. on University of North Carolina
    listserv permaculture@listserv.unc.edu (post articles to this address)

To subscribe, send email to "listserv@unc.edu" 
type:  SUBSCRIBE PERMACULTURE YOUR NAME in body of message

2. Permaculture Mailing List in U.S.A. on EnviroLink listserv 
    permaculture@envirolink.org (post articles to this address)

To subscribe send email to "listproc@envirolink.org"
type:  SUBSCRIBE PERMACULTURE YOUR NAME in body of message

3. Permaculture Mailing List in Western Australia
    perma@eepo.com.au (post articles to this address)

To subscribe, send email to "listserv@eepo.com.au"
type:  SUBSCRIBE PERMA YOUR NAME in body of message

4. Permaculture Mailing List in Germany (German Language)
    permakultur-ml@petidomo.ml.deceiver.org (post articles to this
    address)

To subscribe, send email to "petidomo@ml.deceiver.org" 
ADD YOUR ADDRESS PERMAKULTUR-ML in body of message 

5. Permaculture Discussion Group Archives 

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at U.N.C., Chapel Hill, NC):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver/index.html

PERMACULTURE discussion group (listserver at Envirolink):
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture-listserver-envirolink/index.html

PERMACULTURE-MG archives:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/permaculture1/maillist.html

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/mailarchives/pc-homepage/maillist.html 
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture-mg-archives

6. InterGarden:  Organic Gardening & Permaculture Information at U.N.C.

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/The_Sustainable_Farmstead.html
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
Email: london@sunsite.unc.edu

7. A Permaculture Primer 	
http://hueylong.cadgis.lsu.edu/lhin/visitor/html/primer/

8. Permaculture Guide at Communications for a Sustainable Future
http://csf.colorado.edu:8080/

9. Permaculture International Journal (Australia)
http://nornet.nor.com.au/environment/perma/
Email:  pcjournal@peg.apc.org

10. International Permaculture Institute (Australia)
Email:  perminst@peg.apc.org

11. Permaculture Global Assistance Network (Australia)
http://www.peg.apc.org/~pgan

12. Permaculture in Western Australia
http://www.eepo.com.au/perma/

13. Permaculture in South Australia - "What's Happening in Permaculture" 
http://dove.mtx.net.au/%7Esteveo/wotsnu.html

14. Correspondence Course on Permaculture (Australia)
http://www.qldnet.com.au/acs/hort/permaculture.html

15. Permaculture Visions - International'Correspondence Course (Australia) 
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv/

16. British Permaculture Magazine/Permanent Publications Web Site
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html

17. PermaWeb in Great Britain
http://www.sysmag.com/permaweb

18. Permaculture Association (Britain)
http://www.sysmag.com/permaweb/groups/pcbritain

19. Bay Area Permaculture Guild
http://www.nbn.com/people/bapg/

20. Permaculture Institute of Northern California
http://www.nbn.com/people/bapg/pinc.html

21. Central Valley Permaculture Group
http://arnica.csustan.edu/permaculture/

22. Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute in Texas
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ctpi/cross_t.htm

23. Central Rocky Mountain Permaculture Institute
Email:  103070.2354@compuserve.com

24. Permaculture on "MindoBodyoSpirit" Web Page (South Africa)
http://www.pix.za/mbs/body/perma.htm

25. Permaculture Fact Sheet (South Africa)
http://www.panda.org/research/facts/South_Africa_Facts/07perm.htm

26. Permaculture on Carmela's Home Page 
http://www.ozoline.com.au/permaculture/index.html

27. Permaculture at Heathcote Intentional Community
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html

28. Plants for a Future On-Line
http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/index.html

29. Institute for Bioregional Studies
http://www.cycor.ca/IBS/

30. EcoVillage Information Service
http://www.gaia.org/

31. Crystal Waters Permaculture Village
http://www.gaia.org/crystalwaters/cw_toc.html#cw_toc

32. Eco-Logical Solutions, Ltd.
http://www.gaia.org/crystalwaters/els.html#els

33. The Farm EcoVillage Training Center
http://www.gaia.org/farm/

34. The Animal Farm Permaculture Center
http://www.neosoft.com/~animalfm/afpchome.htm

35. Dreamtime Village Permaculture Hyper-Media 
http://net22.com/dreamtime/index.shtml

36. Exmouth Permaculture Group
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/exmperm/home.htm

37. Permaculture Japan Site
http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/permaculture/perma.html

38. The Jarlanbah Permaculture Hamlet
http://www.nor.com.au/tourism/nimbin/jarl.htm

39. Eco-Village Resource List -  Organisations and Networks
http://www.gaia.org/links/orgsnetworks.html

40. Eco-Village Resource List -  Magazines and Newsletters
http://www.gaia.org/links/magsnewsletters.html

41. Eco-villages and Sustainable Communities:  Models for 21st Century
Living http://www.gaia.org/evis/evbook/contents.html

42. Intentional Communities on the Web
http://www.well.com/user/cmty/index.html

43. Arcosanti  (Arizona)
http://www.arcosanti.org

44. Auroville (India)
http://www.auroville-india.org/

45. Keyline Design - Water for Every Farm
http://www.keyline.com.au/

46. Alternative Technology Association (ATA)
http://www.ata.org.au/

47. Permaculture Drylands Institute
http://www.amug.org/~shadetre/Perma.html

48. Center of Excellence for Sustainable Development
http://www.sustainable.doe.gov/

49. The Permaculture Activist  - Zine Site
http://kumo.swcp.com/xines/

50. Dry Country News
http://kumo.swcp.com/xines/

51. Permaculture FAQ on the Web  

Hyper-Text Version
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/faq.html 

Ascii-Text Version
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3
==========================================
Send updates to:
    Steve Diver
    ATTRA  - Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas 
    steved@ncatark.uark.edu
===========================================

--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

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============================================
              Permaculture Organizations & Publications*
============================================
*From:  The Permaculture FAQ, Version 1.4
*Note:  Version 1.4 will be posted at new web site in September
              Version 1.3 located at:  
               http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3 

=============================================
               Permaculture Resources in the United States:
=============================================

The Permaculture Activist
Box 1209
Black Mountain, NC  28711
(704) 683-4946
Editor: Peter Bane
Cost:  $16, quarterly
http://kumo.swcp.com/xines/

The Permaculture Activist is the leading periodical for North
American permaculture.  It publishes articles on permaculture, edible
landscaping, bioregionalism, aquaculture, etc, and provides a current
listing of upcoming permaculture design courses.  It serves as an
important networking tool in the U.S., Canada, and Central America. 
Back issues are available.   

The International Permaculture Solutions Journal (TIPS) 
Yankee Permaculture, Elfin Permaculture, and 
Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network (FERN) 
P.O. Box 672 Dahlonega, GA 30533-0672 
Editor:  Dan Hemenway 
Email:  YankeePerm@aol.com, and Elfpermact@aol.com  
Cost:  $27.50 for four issues

The International Permaculture Solutions Journal (TIPS) is published
on an irregular basis, but is a rich source of information.  Prior
to TIPS, Yankee Permaculture put out a fantastic yearbook called The
International Permaculture Species Yearbook (TIPSY).  The TIPSY
series is a goldmine of permaculture information; much of the
information is still quite useful.  FERN publishes a permaculture
newsletter 	called Robin that deals with forest issues. Yankee
Permaculture also publishes The Resources of International
Permaculture - TRIP.  Volume 5 of TRIP, published in 1993, is a
68-page issue that contains 1,540 listings of groups working in
permaculture, sustainable food systems, and tree-based agriculture.

Restoration Forestry
Friends of the Trees
P. O. Box 4469
Bellingham, WA   98227
(360) 738-4972
Editor:  Michael Pilarski

Restoration Forestry: An International Guide to Sustainable Forestry
Practices (1994) is a 525-page guide to resources in restoration
forestry.  It contains over 50 review articles, 780 organizations,
230 journals and periodicals, 800 books, 100 restoration forestry
projects underway, and 100 directories on topics relating to
Restoration forestry, forest ecology, tree seedlings, bioregionalism,
and permaculture.  It is a massive addition to tree-based
agricultural literature.  Cost is $27, plus $4 handling.  

Other publications from Friends of the Trees include the
International Green Front Report (1988, $7.00); Kiwifruit Enthusiasts
Journal (Vol. 6, $17.20); and Third World Resource Guide (1993,
$5.00) and the West Coast Permaculture News & Gossip newsletter. 

Travelers Earth Repair Network (TERN) is a database maintained by
Friends of the Trees containing over 2,500 permaculture contacts in
100-plus countries.  The aim is to link travelers with individuals
and organizations involved in sustainable agriculture, forestry,
permaculture, and ecological restoration.  The 	fee to access the
TERN database is $50.  Hosts are listed free of charge. 

Permaculture Drylands Journal
Permaculture Drylands Institute
P.O. Box 156
Santa Fe, NM  87504-0156
(505) 983-0663
Cost: $25, 3 issues per year 
http://www.amug.org/~shadetre/Perma.html

Permaculture Drylands Journal (formerly Sustainable Living in
Drylands) is published in April, August, and December by the
Permaculture Drylands Education and Research Institute. It focuses on
permaculture concepts and designs for arid lands, with a heavy focus
on New Mexico and Arizona.  PDJ has published articles on straw bale
buildings, solar box cookers, dryland farming, and much more; back
issues are available.  PDI offers a regular series of Permaculture
Design Courses.   

Dry Country News
Box 23-J
Radium Springs, NM 88054
Cost:  $10, 4 issues per year
http://www.zianet.com/drynews/

Dry Country News is devoted to Earth-based, low-impact living in the
American Southwest.  Whether you call it homesteading, permaculture,
or sustainable living, Dry Country News is packed with information of
interest to desert dwellers everywhere.  Topics covered include
alternative construction methods (straw bale, cob, adobe, etc.),
gardening in our difficult desert climate, solar energy techniques
and applications, desert herbs for food and medicine, sustainable
irrigation methods (rainwater catchments, drip, etc.) and much more.
 
Earthword Journal
Eos Institute			
580 Broadway, Suite 200	
Laguna Beach, CA  92651	
(714) 497-1896		
Cost: $20, 4 issues 		

Earthword Journal is a glossy permaculture magazine published
collaboratively by Eos Institute and the Permaculture Institute of
Southern California.  It explores the ecological interface between
urban and 	rural communities and is geared to the professional
designer, architect, and land-use planner. Issue No. 6 was 	published
in January 1996.

The Bay Area Permculture Guild
Bay Area Permaculture Group
P.O. Box 9606
San Rafael, CA  94901
Email:  bapg@slip.net
http://www.nbn.com/people/bapg/
Cost:  $20, 4 issues per year

The Bay Area Permculture Guild is a newsletter for the emerging
grassroots movement of Permaculture in the San Francisco Bay Area
and surrounding Shasta Bioregion. The newsletter is published four
times a year in the cross quarter months: February, May, August, and
November.  Contents include events, sites, teachers, books, and
permaculture strategies.

Temperate Bamboo Quarterly
Earth Advocates Research Facility
30 Myers Road
Summertown, TN  38483 
(615) 964-4151
Cost:  $24, quarterly 

Temperate Bamboo Quarterly is a quarterly publication from Earth
Advocates, a permaculture team run by Sue and Adam Turtle.  It
focuses on the bamboo plant which has unique, multi-purpose uses. 
They also operate a nursery with dozens of bamboo species.      

Permaculture Resources
P.O. Box 65
56 Farmersville Rd
Califon, N.J.  07830
(800) 832-6285
http://www.jump.net/users/perma/

Educational publisher and distributor of permaculture resources and
publications.

agAccess
P.O. Box 2008
Davis, CA  95616
(916) 756-7177
http://www.mother.com/agaccess/

agAccess, primarily a mailorder bookstore but also a publishing
company and for-profit information service, carries one of the
largest selections of agricultural literature in North America.  They
specialize in sustainable agriculture and related resources.

The Future is Abundant 
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/tilth/

First published in 1982 by Tilth, The Future is Abundant is a classic
resource book on permaculture at the bioregional level.  Though long
out-of-print, it is now available on the Internet.

=========================================
                Permaculture Resources in Australia
==========================================

Permaculture International Journal 
Permaculture International Ltd.
P.O. Box PG6039 
South Lismore, NSW  2480
Australia
Phone:  (066) 220 020
International:  (066) 220 579
http://nornet.nor.com.au/environment/perma/
Cost: U.S. $24, quarterly (available in the U.S. through The
Permaculture Activist)

PIJ serves as the leading periodical for permaculture worldwide.  It
contains articles, book reviews, and news of permacultural events
around the world.  It serves as an important networking tool.  Back
issues to the early 1980s are available.

The Permaculture Edge
Permaculture Nambour, Inc. 
P.O. Box 148 
Inglewood 6050 
Western Australia
Cost: U.S. $20, quarterly (available in the U.S. through The
Permaculture Activist) 

The Permaculture Edge aims to report activities that are seen to be
at the cutting edge of permaculture developments around the world. 
The "permaculture edge" refers to the "edge effect" found at the
boundaries of two ecological systems where there is more synergism,
biological activity, and variations in the microenvironment and which
can be used to increase yields in designed systems.  It also points
to permaculture ideas as being "at the edge" of a change in the push
towards a sustainable future. 

International Permaculture Institute
P.O. Box 1
Tyalgum, NSW  2484
Australia
Phone:  (066) 793 442
perminst@peg.apc.org

The International Permaculture Institute in Tyalgum, Australia,
serves as the international coordinating organization for
permaculture activities such as permaculture design accreditation.  

==========================================
           Permaculture Resources Around the World
==========================================

Permaculture Magazine UK: Ecological Solutions for Everyday Life
Permanent Publications
Hyden House Limited
Little Hyden Lane
Clandfield, Hampshire  PO8 ORU
England
Email:  permaculture@gn.apc.org     
http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html
Cost:  U.S. $24, quarterly (available in the U.S. through The
Permaculture Activist)

A quarterly journal published in cooperation with the Permaculture
Association of Great Britain.  It contains articles, book reviews,
and solutions from Britain and Europe.  A good source for temperate
agroforestry species and permaculture design projects.   

Earth Repair Catalog - Permanent Publications (UK)
http://www.permaculture.co.uk/

A project of Permanent Publications in Great Britain, publisher of
Permaculture Magazine UK.  The Earth Repair Catalog is a wide
selection of books, videos, and resources on permaculture topics: 
organic gardening; bio-dynamics; agroforestry; farming; aquaculture;
animals; ecological architecture & sustainable building technology;
human-scale economy & development; community & groups; and energy
saving products

GroundCover
Permaculture Association of Zimbabwe
Box CY 301
Causeway, Harare 
Zimbabwe
Telephone/Fax:  (+4) 726911
Cost:  U.S. $30, per year

The Organic Farming Sourcebook  338-pages
The Other India Press
Above Mapusa Clinic
Mapusa 403 507 Goa
India
Fax:  91-832-263305

The Organic Farming Sourcebook, a 338-page guidebook just published
in 1996, provides a dynamic treatment of organic agriculture in
India, with up-to-date articles, resources, contacts, and suppliers. 
In modern India, 70% of its 900 million inhabitants still depend on
agriculture as a livelihood.  These farmers draw upon four thousand
years of sustainable farming experience.  However, European
colonialism and Green Revolution technology has wreaked havoc on
natural farming methods in India, and the Sourcebook documents and
supports the efforts of the emerging organic farming and
permaculture movements in India.  Highly recommended.
===============================================
Send updates to:
    Steve Diver
    ATTRA - Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas
    steved@ncatark.uark.edu
===============================================


--
steved@ncatark.uark.edu

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 16:11:07 1997
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Date: 	Thu, 07 Aug 1997 13:02:49 -0700
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From: "Holly ;-D" <hollyd@informix.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: permacultural resources
References: <Pine.HPP.3.95.970807011936.9646B-100000@hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us>
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mray01@ccsf.cc.ca.us wrote:
> 
> Howdy All,
> 
> I am new to this list, and have only a beginning understanding of
> permaculture. Would it be possible to email me (or post) a few good
> general resources on permaculture? Preferably on-line resources since
> those are the most easily accessible, but books are good.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mike Ray

Try these:

http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ctpi/cross_t.htm
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/
http://www.rain.org/~sals/my.html
http://www.cityfarmer.org/urbagnotes1.html#notes
http://www.greenbuilder.com/
http://www.mgl.ca/~dlinton/enveng.html
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/
http://solstice.crest.org/
http://www.whidbey.com/lighthook/
http://www.worldwatch.org/index.html
http://www.uky.edu/Agriculture/Forestry/AppalFor/low.html

Some are probably more appropriate than others but all have
something to do with permaculture.

Hope this helps!

Holly ;-D

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 16:39:42 1997
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As someone who feels he is not a total novice to the Web, I *still* find
it more productive to have those who know tell you good sources than to
grep through a few gigs of some database. It has nothing to do with
"wanting permaculture easily" than with "sharing high quality URLS and
book titles with the curious". If there are 5000 hits for "permaculture"
how am I to know which are good? I can look for myself, which I will
probably do sooner or later anyway, or I can ask here and get good "hits"
100% relevant to my search. People are always the best, and most
intelligent, search engines.

On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 Milogic@aol.com wrote:

> To Mike Ray and the others who want permaculture easily, use your internet
> access to go to any of the search engines, from Yahoo! to Excite! by way of
> Alta Vista and Magellan (among many search engines). Type in PERMACULTURE on
> the search line, click on the search icon or hit your return key and WOW! you
> will be inundated by permaculture references and links around the world.
> 
> Milo Clark
> Berkeley CA USA
> 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  7 16:58:10 1997
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At 01:35 PM 8/7/97 -0700, mray01@ccsf.cc.ca.us wrote:
>
>As someone who feels he is not a total novice to the Web, I *still* find
>it more productive to have those who know tell you good sources than to
>grep through a few gigs of some database. It has nothing to do with
>"wanting permaculture easily" than with "sharing high quality URLS and
>book titles with the curious". If there are 5000 hits for "permaculture"
>how am I to know which are good? 

Well...that's part of what the FAQ is for, because everyone asks certain
questions.  Putting the answers all in one place keeps the rest of us from
having to listen to them over and over again.

Beyond that...if you, say, want to know how to integrate chitlin grubs into
a subtropical savannah, you can ask a more specific question and perhaps a
human *can* better direct you to the info you need.  Otherwise, having no
knowledge of your specific needs, all we can really do is point someone at
the resource list and let them figure out what works for their specific
situation.  Someone living in Ohio, say, probably has very little use for a
site focused on tropical rainforests.  It's a big world, after all. :)

Just another data point,

Loren


--
Loren Davidson      
loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"What I *said* was, 'Buy $150M worth of *Snapple*!'"  -- B. Gates

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug  8 15:51:32 1997
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Date: 	Fri, 8 Aug 1997 15:43:35 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org,
        Ecobalance list <ecobalance@gaia.org>
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Plant Patterning Workshop
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Heathcote Intentional Community in Freeland, MD is hosting a workshop on 
Plant Patterning 9/27-28, with an introducory session the evening on the 
26th. Topics to be covered include:

Companion planting
Making niches
Assessing the landscape
Agroforestry

Sessions will be taught from a permaculture perspective, with an emphasis
on natural patterns of plants. Dawn Shiner, who has been a permaculture
instructor since 1987, will be our guide. 

For more information, please e-mail (address below) or call 410 343 3112

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug  8 16:02:01 1997
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Heathcote Intentional Community in Freeland, MD is hosting a workshop on 
Plant Patterning 9/27-28, with an introducory session the evening on the 
26th. Topics to be covered include:

Companion planting
Making niches
Assessing the landscape
Agroforestry

Sessions will be taught from a permaculture perspective, with an emphasis
on natural patterns of plants. Dawn Shiner, who has been a permaculture
instructor since 1987, will be our guide. 

For more information, please e-mail (address below) or call 410 343 3112

Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
http://www.welch.jhu.edu/~lfelch/heathcote.html
Baltimore, MD

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug  9 17:49:39 1997
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From: simonize@aa.net (Simon Henderson)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: permacultural resources
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>At 01:35 PM 8/7/97 -0700, mray01@ccsf.cc.ca.us wrote:
>>
>>As someone who feels he is not a total novice to the Web, I *still* find
>>it more productive to have those who know tell you good sources than to
>>grep through a few gigs of some database. It has nothing to do with
>>"wanting permaculture easily" than with "sharing high quality URLS and
>>book titles with the curious". If there are 5000 hits for "permaculture"
>>how am I to know which are good?
>
>Well...that's part of what the FAQ is for, because everyone asks certain
>questions.  Putting the answers all in one place keeps the rest of us from
>having to listen to them over and over again.
>
>Beyond that...if you, say, want to know how to integrate chitlin grubs into
>a subtropical savannah, you can ask a more specific question and perhaps a
>human *can* better direct you to the info you need.  Otherwise, having no
>knowledge of your specific needs, all we can really do is point someone at
>the resource list and let them figure out what works for their specific
>situation.  Someone living in Ohio, say, probably has very little use for a
>site focused on tropical rainforests.  It's a big world, after all. :)
>
>Just another data point,
>
>Loren
>
>
>--
>Loren Davidson
>loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
>"What I *said* was, 'Buy $150M worth of *Snapple*!'"  -- B. Gates

Hello Loren,

Good on you.....as a permaculture fellow, I have all but resigned from
participating in p.c. discussions, or even opening the postings after
10,000 ho hum and needy redundancies. As we both know, there are
appropriate ways to seek out the unkown without boring the rest of us
blue...

How's life?

Good Medicine,

Simon Henderson
Bamboo People
322 N. 82nd St.
Seattle, WA 98103
(206) 784-3069
Email: simonize@aa.net


                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 10 00:12:35 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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On Thu, 7 Aug 1997 mray01@ccsf.cc.ca.us wrote:

> I am new to this list, and have only a beginning understanding of
> permaculture. Would it be possible to email me (or post) a few good
> general resources on permaculture? Preferably on-line resources since
> those are the most easily accessible, but books are good.

Online discussion group resources would include this list, the Envirolink
PC list and a new array of PC newsgroups at sunSITE at:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.design (+ others) or
add this (free) public host to your news browser: news.sunsite.unc.edu

There are lots of PC links & other info at:
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
and PC literary references at:
http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/orgfarm/permaculture/literature

Here are a few from the Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute homepage at:
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ctpi/cross_t.htm

Books

Renewable Natural Resources

     The One-Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka, 1985. 
     Permaculture: A Designers' Manual by Bill Mollison. 
     Tree Crops: A Permanent Agriculture by Russell J. Smith, 1929. 
     The Permaculture Garden by Graham Bell, 1994. 
     Holistic Resource Management by Alan Savory. 

Social Studies

     _Living the Good Life and _Continuing the Good Life_ by Helen and
     Scott Nearing. 
     Dumbing Us Down by John Gatto. 
     Communities Directory by the Fellowship for Intentional Community,
     1995. 
     Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh by Helena Norberg-Hodge, 1991. 
     Invest Yourself Commission on Voluntary Service and Action, New York,
     New York, 1993. "The catalogue of Volunteer
     Opportunities." 



Building

     Thermal Delight in Architecture by Lisa Heschong, 1979. 
     The Straw Bale House by Steen, Steen, and Bainbridge, 1994. 



Food Preparation

     Stocking Up III: The All-New Edition of America's Classic Preserving
     Guide by Carol Hupping, 1986. 
     Ferment and Human Nutrition by Bill Mollison, Published by Tagari
     Press, 1993. 



Catalogues

     Peaceful Valley Farm Supply P.O. Box 2209, Grass Valley, CA 95945.
     Phone: 916-272-4769. 
     Real Goods 966 Mazzoni Street; Ukiah, CA 95482-3471. Phone:
     800-762-7325; Fax 707-468-9486. 
     Island Press Environmental Sourcebook "Books for better conservation
     management." P.O. Box 7; Covelo, CA 95428.
     Phone: 800-828-1302; Fax 707-983-6414. 



Periodicals

     The Permaculture Activist P.O. Box 1209; Black Mountain, NC 28711.
     Contact, Peter Bane. 
     The Permaculture International Journal P.O. Box 6039; South Lismore;
     NSW 2480, Australia. Phone: 066-220-020; Fax:
     066-220-579; pcjournal@peg.apc.org (electronic mail). 
     Permaculture Drylands Jounal P.O. Box 64184; Tucson, AZ 85728. 
     Communities 



From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 10 00:23:54 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: Steve Diver <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture Organizations & Publications
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> ============================================
>               Permaculture Organizations & Publications*
> ============================================
> *From:  The Permaculture FAQ, Version 1.4
> *Note:  Version 1.4 will be posted at new web site in September
>               Version 1.3 located at:  

>                http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3 

This is the ascii text version and is located at:

http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faqs/permaculture.faq.v1.3


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 10 00:48:33 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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This looks like a really interesting PC course.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: YankeePerm@aol.com
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Permaculture Design Course Online

 Elfin Permaculture News

Online Permaculture Design Course  begins  in September

	Elfin Permaculature's next Permaculture Design Correspondence Course, with
an email classroom, will begin  in September 1997.  The course draws on the
Elfin Permaculture's standard three-week design course and follows the
outline below:
	SECTION 1:  Introduction and Basic Principles
		a)  World ecological problems and interrelationships.
		b)  Principles of natural design.
		c)  Permaculture design concepts.
		d)  Classical landscapes.
		e)  Patterning, edges, edge effects.
		f)  The Permaculture Design Report
		g)  Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much 
                    as we have worked out at the moment--this is not part of
                    ordinary permaculture design courses).
	SECTION 2:  Appropriate Technologies  in Permaculture Design
		a)  Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc.
		b)  Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods, 
                    perennials, tree crops, food parks, composting toilets, 
                    livestock, "pest" management, food storage, seed
                    saving, cultivated systems, forests, etc.
		c)  Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc.
		d)   Buildings.
	SECTION 3:  Social permaculture.  Design Report.
		a)   Design for catastrophe.
		b)  Urban permaculture.
		c)  Bioregionalism.
		d)  Alternative economics.
		e)  Village development.
		f)  Final design reports and critiques.
		g)  Final evaluation.
	DESIGN SECTION.  
(Requires Section 1.)  Students complete  a permaculture design
	Students follow a set reading schedule supplemented by  notes from the
instructor. They discuss reading assignments  in an email classroom.  The
instructor also supplements course materials  with resources drawn from
varied components of the internet.  Students practice explaining or teaching
permaculture basics, give special reports, and prepare a complete
permaculture design.  The course runs 20-26 weeks, depending on the time
needed to complete  discussion of various topics.  Students completing all
course requirements receive a Permaculture Design Course certificate.
	Students may arrange to enroll individual sections  of the course in any
sequence, depending on their financial  and schedule  requirements.  People
may also arrange  to monitor the course at nominal  cost.  Enrollment  in the
Design Section  is limited to 20 people.  
	Instructor Dan Hemenway has taught  permaculture worldwide in Europe, Asia,
the Pacific and North America. Dan  is also founder, editor and publisher of
The International Permaculture Solutions Journal,  highly regarded among
permaculturists and PROD (Permaculture Review Overview and Digest ). He is
program director of APT (Advanced Permaculture Training), founder of the
Forest Ecosystem Rescue Network (FERN), and active in related movements such
as remineralization. He contributes to the development of permaculture with
ongoing work on principles of transformation.  Dan holds five diplomas in
various aspects of permaculture from the International Permaculture
Institute. He received the annual Conservation Award from Friends of Nature
in 1983 and the Community Service Award from the International Permaculture
Institute in 1984. In 1991, he was named as a delegate to "Roots of the
Future," a conference of NGOs in Paris, France, to prepare input to the UN
"Earth Summit" held in June, 1992. More recently, Dan was cited in
Swathmore's Who's Who in America for 1996-97, and  from 1995 to the present
has served as Honorary Chairman, Permaculture Foundation - Net_Work - Kenya,
 Homa Bay, Kenya. 
	For details, email Elfin Permaculture at  elfpermacl@aol.com

Permaculture Internships in Florida

Yankee and Elfin Permaculture have two internships available at Barking Frogs
Farm in central Florida.  All interns will be exposed to sustainable
lifestyle and given opportunity to participate in the functioning of our
permaculture activities, including the  farm. Internships are available
year-round on the farm with the duration   negotiable. 

The Elfin Permaculture  intern will assist in the development  of our
permaculture design for our newly acquired farm.  S/he will take
measurements, document,  plantings,  produce  drawings and maps, and write
the first draft narrative of the design.

The Yankee Permaculture  intern will assist in the production  of our
publications, which include a journal, a digest, two directories, and a
series of specialized papers  and pamphlets.

Both interns are free to take any online design course  that runs during
 their internship.  Both interns will contribute to design implementation and
routine tasks as well as managing their own special projects.  Long term
interns have the opportunity to develop profit sharing and/or a position as
caretaker at  the farm.

For more information, reply with specific questions and a self-description
(less than 200 words) to Dan Hemenway, Peermacltur@aol.com.

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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:46:21 -0500
From: "John A. Hendrickson" <jhendric@facstaff.wisc.edu>
To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: CSA query results

SANET folks,

A while ago I posted a query looking for detailed CSA handbooks or how-to
guides.  As promised, here are the results.  I got many responses but lots
for the same publications (I've left off duplications).  Thanks to ALL who
responded.  -John

* * * * * *.  
Here is my brief list of publications with CSA how-to info.

Keith Richards, Southern SAWG

PUBLICATIONS on CSA:

Basic Formula to Create Community Supported Agriculture by Robin Van En. 
Step-by-step guide to forming a CSA, including budget, harvest and
distribution information.  80 pages.  $10.00 postpaid.  From Indian Line
Farm, Box 57, Jugend Road, Great Barrington, MA 02130.  

Community Related Agriculture.  Brochure outlining the organization and
planning of Community Farms, CSAs, and Subscription Farms.  10 pages.  $1.00
+ SASE.  From the Bio-Dynamic Farming Association, P.O. Box 550, Kimberton,
PA 19422.  

Community Supported Agriculture by Robyn Van En & Cathy Roth.  University of
Massachusetts Cooperative Extension Publication C-212.  A basic
introduction.  4 pages.  $2.00.  From Bulletin Center,  Cottage A. Thatcher
Way, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA 01003. U-Mass Publication
Office:  413/545-2717

Community Supported Agriculture (CSA): Making the Connection by Bill Blake
et. al. Handbook for farmers, includes information about getting started,
designing CSAs, recruiting members, creating production and harvest plans,
setting share prices and legal issues. Incorporates ideas and strategies of
many successful CSAs. $31.81 (make check payable to UC Regents). UC
Cooperative Extension, Attn: CSA Handbook, 11477 E Avenue, Auburn, CA 95603;
phone (916) 889-7385. 

"CSA Farm" by Hugh Lovel.  Acres USA, August, 1992, pp. 35-36.  The
experiences and insight of a Georgia farmer after five years of operating a CSA.

Farms of Tomorrow: Community Supported Farms and Farm Supported Communities,
1990, by Trauger Groh & Stephen McFadden.  CSA philosophy and practice.  176
pages. $12.00 + $2.00 postage. From the Bio-Dynamic Farming Association,
P.O. Box 550, Kimberton, PA 19442; 800-516-7797 or 215-935-7797. 

The Harvest Times, P.O. Box 27, Mt. Tremper, NY 12457; 914-688-5030.  A
newsletter offering assistance to CSAs with information on operations,
promotions, and organized groups.  Subscription $10.00/year.

Our Field: A Manual for Community Shared Agriculture, 1994, by Tamsyn Rowley
and Chris Beeman.  Community Shared Agriculture (CSA), often called
"Community Supported Agriculture" in the U.S., is described and promoted as
means for farmers to better connect with community members and for
community members to have more influence over how food is produced. Chapters
focus on beginning and marketing CSA projects, as well as on the best
agricultural practices suited to CSA. Includes appendix of CSAs across
Canada. 89 pages. Canada$15. Tamsyn Rowley, University of Guelph, Guelph,
Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1; phone 519-824-4120 ext. 8480; fax 519-763-4686. 

Rebirth of the Small Family Farm, 1996, by Bob and Bonnie Gregson. Tells one
family's story of beginning and operating a small, organic vegetable farm in
Washington run on community supported agriculture (CSA) model. Provides
general information about managing small-scale farms, describing start-up
requirements, crop selection, marketing strategies and related topics.
Includes resource list of periodicals and organizations related to organic
farming and CSAs. 64 pp. $9.95. IMF Associates, P.O.
Box 2542, Vashon Island, WA 98070; 206-463-9065.

Toward an Agricultural Ethic, by Bonner McAllester and illustrated by
Victoria Reed. A capsulization of a six-week long study circle to determine
the basis of an 'agricultural ethic' in Berkshire County, Massachusetts by a
small community group including local farmers,a banker,environmental
lawyer,professor of humanities and others. $1 each or multiple copies upon
request from: CSANA or UMASS/ Berkshire County Cooperative Extension, 44
Bank Row, Pittsfield, Ma. 01201.

* * * * * *
1996 CSA FARM NETWORK by the Northeast Organic Farming Association. This is
an 88 page  directory of CSA's in the northeast, with several informational
chapters, including forming CSA's, specialty crops, core group development,
keeping people happy. Contributors include Elizabeth Henderson, Michael
Doctor, Steve Gilman, and more. This was a Sare funded program, coordinated
by Steve Gilman of NOFA NY. (Steve Gilman, CSA Farm Network, 130 Ruckytucks
Road, Stillwater, NY  12170).  Copies available from all the NOFA chapters:
Send $7.50 (includes postage) to NOFA-NJ 33 Titus Mill Rd. Pennington NJ 08534.

from: Emily Brown Rosen
Technical Director
NOFA-NJ

* * * * * *
Maximizing Shareholder Retention in Southeastern CSAs: A step toward long
term stability. by Deborah Kane and Luanne Lohr, University of Georgia.  To
request a free copy, contact: Deborah Kane, Institute of Ecology, University
of Georgia, Athens, Georgia 30602-2202. E-mail: dkane@uga.cc.uga.edu

Hope this helps,
Deirdre

Deirdre M. Birmingham

* * * * * *
(Note:
I think most of the following are shorter articles, not detailed, how-to
handbooks for growers. -John)
 
Furusawa, Koyu.  1994.  "Tei-Kei: Partnership between farmers and consumers"
in ILEIA Newsletter  (pp 10-11)

Getz, Arthur. 1991-92. "Design for Community: Consumer-Producer
Co-Partnerships: A Direct  Marketing Approach" in PERMACULTURE ACTIVIST
(Vol. VII#3 (pp 3-10)

Gibson, Eric. 1993 "Community Supported Agriculture" SMALL FARM NEWS
(nov/dec), Univ. of  California (pp 1, 3-4)

Hoffman, Judith. 1996. "Community Supported Agriculture--Part II" in THE
NATURAL FARMER -  Special Supplement on Community Supported Agriculture

Laird, Timothy. 1995. CSA: A STUDY OF AN EMERGING AGRICULTURAL ALTERNATIVE
(MSc Thesis for Natural Resrouce Planning dept. of the University of
Vermont, Burlington)

Lamb, Gary 1994. "Community Supported Agriculture - can it become the basis
for a New  Associative Economy?" in BIODYNAMICS (Nov/Dec) pp 8-15

Amunda Salm
Canada

* * * * * *
END


John Hendrickson
Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems
University of Wisconsin-Madison
1450 Linden Drive, Room 146
Madison, WI  53706
jhendric@facstaff.wisc.edu
(608) 265-3704
FAX (608) 265-3020
http://www.wisc.edu/cias

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----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
Venaura Farm
mailto:london@nuteknet.com
http://nuteknet.com/london
----------------------------------

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 07:32:06 -0400
From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@igg.com>
To: bd-l@biodynamics.com
Subject: Spader Clinic at BD Conference

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Great News!!

Eugene Canales (BIODYNAMICS #210-212) of Ferarri Tractor has offered to
conduct a "spading" clinic at the East Coast Biodynamic Conference Oct 3-5.

The Claymont Court Agricultural Project, the site of the conference, has
been using  a 7ft Tortella spader with a recent model 70-hp John Deere
tractor with optional low gearing for the past year. It is Eugene's
intention to use this equipment to show in the field the 'whys and hows' of
spading as well as demonstrate some 'tricks of the spade' and answer
questions from spader users and those interested in using spaders on their
beds and fields in the future. The Claymont growers will be on hand to
discuss their experiences with this appropriate approach to tillage. (They
LIKE their spader!!)

The presentation is in addition to the lecture on 'Walking Tractors' by
Eugene Canales which was announced previously. This presentation will be
demonstrated with the BCS line of walking tractors and may even include a
demonstration of the  BCS walk-behind spading machine!!! (Highly
recommended by Elliot Coleman for the 'small' producer.) Other European
'walking tractor' lines will be discussed and there will be a slide show
and questions and answers.

[I hope my enthusiasm for these two events is not construed to be
commercial. I have not seen many opportunities for alternative growers to
find experienced information on these worthwhile and practical approaches
to tillage and cultivation and am happy that we will get an opportunity to
provide this information at the East Coast Biodynamics Conference.]

The East Coast Biodynamic Conference ("Alan Chadwick: 30 Years Later") is
being held at Claymont Court in Charles Town, WV (about 90 minutes from
downtown Washington DC) Oct 3-5, 1997. It is being partially sponsored by
the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association and the Demeter (BD
Certification) Association with a little help from Record Tools (marketers
in North America of the famous Sheffield England D-handled "Bulldog" spades
popularized by Alan Chadwick).

Trade Show space is available at this conference. (Yes, there will be
stirring machines AND flow forms demonstrated!)

For more information about the East Coast Biodynamic Conference, Contact:
Allan Balliett POB 3047 Shepherdstown, WV 25443 (304) 876-2373 FAX:(304)
876-9414 email: biodynamics@biodynamics.com or check out the web page at
www.biodynamics.com.

For more information about the Spading Clinic or the Walking Tractor
Presentation, or general questions about alternative farm implements,
contact Eugene Canales, Ferarri Tractor, POB 1045, Gridley, CA 95548 (916)
846-6401 FAX: (916) 846-0390.


===========================================================================
To Post to the Bio-Dynamics Mailing list: bd-l@biodynamics.com
===========================================================================
Subscribe to BIODYNAMICS: Farming and Gardening in the 21st Century
the Bi-Monthly Magazine about Developments in the Art and Science of
Biodyamics.

Noted viticulturist, orchardist and Biodynamic growing consultant, Alan
York, editor.

BIODYNAMICS: Farming and Gardening in the 21st Century is the journal of
the Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America.

6 issues a year for $35

1-800-516-7797

The Biodynamic Farming and Gardening Association of America
POB 550, Kimberton, PA 19442 USA

VISA/AMEX/MasterCard accepted

(International Subscriptions are higher. Contact the BDFGA for a quote).

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.

Opinions expressed in mail through this list, whether by the moderator or
by list members,  are simply the opinions of the poster and do not
necessarily  reflect the opinions of the BDFGA.

~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.~.



The BD-L e-mail list is open to all and subscribing is easy: simply send
an e-mail to:

bd-l@biodynamics.com and put "subscribe BD-L" in the Subject.

(I'll need your name and physical address in the Body of the message, but
it will be released to no one)

You'll soon start getting messages.  If you don't like what you see, send
another e-mail to:

bd-l@biodynamics.com and put "unsubscribe BD-L" in the Subject.

Check out the Biodynamic Association WEB PAGE:
      http://www.his.com/~claymont/bda.html


Thank you,

Allan Balliett, Moderator, BD-L
===============================




From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Aug 11 22:37:48 1997
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Subject: Washington and Idaho Farm Tours (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 08:06:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Tom Hodges (moderated newsgroup)" <sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu>
To: Principles of Sustainable Agriculture <sustag-l@listproc.wsu.edu>
Subject: Washington and Idaho Farm Tours

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:08:11 -0700
From: Colette DePhelps <dephelps@pcei.org>
To: sustag@beta.tricity.wsu.edu, sawg@lists.desktop.org
Subject: Washington and Idaho Farm Tours


ORGANIC, SUSTAINABLE AND DIRECT MARKETING FARM TOURS OFFERED IN WASHINGTON
AND IDAHO

The Palouse-Clearwater Environmental Institute (PCEI) is offering its third
annual series of farm tours in Idaho and Washington.  This year's tours
series, which runs from August to October, will emphasize the importance of
local food production and marketing.  The purpose of the tours is to
increase community knowledge and support of local agricultural products
produced using sustainable and organic production methods.  Featured farms
range from sustainable hay production on steep Palouse slopes, to
small-scale organic vegetable and flower production.

The tours will provide an opportunity for regional producers to learn about
the benefits and challenges of local production and direct marketing, and
for consumers to better understand how they can participate in their local
food systems. Tour participants will see, first hand, the environmental
benefits of alternative production systems.  Participants will also
participate in active discussions of how local production and marketing
enhances the quality of life and economic viability of local communities.
The tours are open to all -- farmers, consumers, extension agents, policy
makers, 4-H youth, Future Farmers of America, environmental advocates and
university students.

For the first time, tours will be held in the late summer and fall,
providing returning university students with an opportunity to attend.

Tours will be offered in:

Sandpoint				(Greater Sandpoint area)
	August 16, 1997
Wenatchee Valley			(Wenatchee, Chelan)
	August 21, 1997
Palouse Region			(Pullman, Moscow, Potlatch area)
	September 20, 1997
Kootenai and Spokane Counties	(Coeur d'Alene, Spokane area)	September
24, 1997
Clearwater Valley			(Lapwai, Lewiston, Clarkston area)
	October 18, 1997

Each tour will include a catered meal featuring local, sustainably grown
food and transportation in an air-conditioned bus.  Cost per person, per
tour, is $20.00  for persons registering at least one week prior to the
tour date.  The registration fee for late registrants is $25.00.  The tours
are co-sponsored by the PCEI Community Food Systems Program, University of
Idaho Cooperative Extension, Washington State University Center for
Sustaining Agriculture and Natural Resources and local chambers of
commerce.  Financial support comes from Patagonia, Inc. and the Jessie
Smith Noyes Foundation.

For more information or to receive a tour brochure, contact:




Colette DePhelps
Community Food Systems Program Coordinator

"Looking more deeply than usual at things, one wonders at how immense tiny
things are, and how tiny immense things are too.  Like dinosaurs (used to
be) and like neutrons.   ~Stine"

===================================================================
Palouse-Clearwater Environmental Institute
P O Box 8596; 112 West 4th St; Suite #1
Moscow ID 83843-1096
Phone (208)882-1444; Fax (208)882-8029
url:  http://www.moscow.com/pcei

Thomas C. Lamar, Executive Director: lamar@pcei.org
Kathleen Lester, Office Manager: lester@pcei.org
Adam R. Thornbrough, Watersheds: thornbrough@pcei.org
Colette DePhelps, Community Food Systems: dephelps@pcei.org
Kathy Roos, Transportation Education: kroos@cyberhighway.net

Celebrating eleven years of connecting people, place and community.
===================================================================


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Aug 11 23:16:02 1997
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Subject: edge zones
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Would anyone care to expound on the design and usage of
edge zones  and patterning in the context of permaculture
systems?

I noticed these topics in the description of Dan Hemenway's
online PC course and was curious about them. I would imagine
that they play important roles in the design of comprehensive 
permaculture systems for a piece of property or a farm. 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Aug 11 23:49:29 1997
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Date: 	Mon, 11 Aug 1997 23:39:50 -0500
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From: Lee Flier <lflier@mindspring.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: edge zones
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970811225830.13339H-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu
 >
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Lawrence wrote:

>Would anyone care to expound on the design and usage of
>edge zones  and patterning in the context of permaculture
>systems?

OK, I'll bite.

Yes, the patterning in design and the use of edge zones is very important
in maximizing use of resources on any site.  It's a really underrated and
fascinating area of study.

"Edge zones" occur naturally at the transition point between any two media.
 This could be between air and water, water and soil, forest and field,
valley and slope, etc.  The interesting thing is that the edges of anything
are always very dynamic and productive compared to the interiors.  For
example most farmers know that the yields at the edges of grain or
cornfields are almost double what they are in the interiors!  Also if you
look at a pond, there is more potential diversity of species at the edges
of ponds than in the middle.

So, in designing sites we want to maximize the amount of "edge".  In the
case of the grain fields for example, you can plant trees, (together with
herbs, fruit bearing shrubs, vining plants, tubers and anything else that
will do well under trees), and then run 6 foot wide swaths of grain in
clearings between the  trees.  This gives you a "perpetual edge" and you
will get nearly the same yield you would have had if you'd planted all
grain, PLUS the yield from the trees and other plants.

Likewise with a pond, if you make "fingers" all around instead of a simple
round or oval shape, you will get much more edge which will yield a lot
more in the same area.

Nature itself has a tendency to arrange things into certain patterns that
appear random to us if we aren't conscious of them, but which are often
optimized to create edge (as with the "finger" shape which is also in an
oak leaf, the "branching" shapes of rivers, lungs, and tree branches, etc.)
 The shape of a mushroom is also prevalant; trees, bones, the flowforms of
running water, and many other things take on this shape.  The patterns, the
reasons why the patterns occur, and the connections between them are
endless but the basic ones are fairly simple, and a lot of aboriginal
"abstract art" is really a map of these natural patterns, a way to pass
knowledge of them down to the children.  Most westerners see this artwork
and see it as purely aesthetic, not having a clue that they're looking at
the equivalent of a school textbook - only a lot easier to memorize!

The idea in learning these natural patterns is that by imitating them in
human designs (rather than patterning everything after the needs of
machinery, such as in straight lines and squares), we will get more out of
the system with less work and less use of resources because these are the
patterns things "want" to fall into without our help.  We in fact are
wasting resources every time we try to design a system that runs counter to
these patterns.

Well that's the basic idea... I'm sure others will have something to say too!

= Lee =


==================================
Lee A. Flier
lflier@mindspring.com
Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Aug 12 21:50:22 1997
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Date: 	Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:50:43 -0500
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From: "juan  vargas" <ecotek@col-online.com>
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To anyone with some free time:

	My name is Juan Vargas and I work for the COAMA Program in the Colombian
Amazons (a program that seeks biodiversity conservation through supporting
the indian communities), I am the Publications Director.
	I am interested in learning more about permaculture.  I would appreciate
if anyone could "guide" me, by refering literature or websites that could
be usefull for a beginner on the subject.

	Thanks a lot,

				juan 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug 14 00:05:10 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: juan vargas <ecotek@col-online.com>
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On Tue, 12 Aug 1997, juan  vargas wrote:

> To anyone with some free time:
> 
> 	My name is Juan Vargas and I work for the COAMA Program in the Colombian
> Amazons (a program that seeks biodiversity conservation through supporting
> the indian communities), I am the Publications Director.
> 	I am interested in learning more about permaculture.  I would appreciate
> if anyone could "guide" me, by refering literature or websites that could
> be usefull for a beginner on the subject.

You'll find a fair amount of information, the PC FAQ and lots of links in
my PC page at:

http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
Venaura Farm
mailto:london@nuteknet.com
http://nuteknet.com/london
----------------------------------


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug 14 00:27:47 1997
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From: simonize@aa.net (Simon Henderson)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: edge zones
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>Would anyone care to expound on the design and usage of
>edge zones  and patterning in the context of permaculture
>systems?

Lee Flier's response was excellent...I also like the quote: "Edge provides
an opportunity for participation..." (Once we understand its' dynamic).


Simon Henderson
Bamboo People
322 N. 82nd St.
Seattle, WA 98103
(206) 784-3069
Email: simonize@aa.net


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 15 11:02:19 1997
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Subject: searching for list of permaculture internships/apprenticeships
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Greetings to all.  I would like to do an internship/apprenticeship on a
permaculture farm.  I recently received the ATTRA (Appropriate Technology
Transfer for Rural Areas) resource list, but would like to find a similar
list consisting of permaculture farms.  Where would I find such a listing?
 Does one exist?  I am familiar with The Permaculture Activist, but I am
looking for something more extensive that what is listed in the classified
section.  Any information would be appreciated.
   Also, I am in school to be a high school teacher, and would like to hear
from other teachers regarding bringing permaculture ideas into the classroom.


                                                      Tim

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 15 22:45:10 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: Forwarded mail.... [apprenticeships at Lightstone Foundation]
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 21:33:35 -0400
From: "Lightstone Foundation Inc." <lfi@access.mountain.net>
To: london@titan.oit.unc.edu

Dear Mr. London,
     I am the farm manager for Lightstone Foundation in Moyers, West
Virginia. Founded in 1986, Lightstone is an educational non-profit
organization that owns and manages a 560 acre organic farm in Pendleton
County at the headwaters of the Potomac River.  Lightstone's mission is to
serve as a regional training and education center for practicing and
supporting sustainable family farming, natural resources management and
rural community development.  We also work with schools and colleges in
this region in the design and execution of stewardship programs centred on
watershed preservation and restoration.
     At this time we are laying the groundwork for our Demonstration Farm
Project, which will serve as a regional model for sustainable,
whole-systems farming.  There will be apprenticeship positions open here,
perhaps this fall but certainly by next spring.  If you are interested, can
you advise me of the time frame that you are looking at?  I will be here at
Lightstone only until August 19.  After that you can reach me at
<maplehil@superaje.com>.

Regards,
Jeffrey Gold


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 16 16:24:36 1997
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From: Jenny <jenny@dsrt.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: searching for list of permaculture internships/app
References: <39838@sand.dsrt.com>
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permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu wrote:
> 
> Greetings to all.  I would like to do an internship/apprenticeship on a
> permaculture farm.  I recently received the ATTRA (Appropriate Technology
> Transfer for Rural Areas) resource list, but would like to find a similar
> list consisting of permaculture farms.  Where would I find such a listing?
>  Does one exist?  I am familiar with The Permaculture Activist, but I am
> looking for something more extensive that what is listed in the classified
> section.  Any information would be appreciated.
>    Also, I am in school to be a high school teacher, and would like to hear
> from other teachers regarding bringing permaculture ideas into the classroom.
> 
>                                                       Tim
>                                                      
I do not have information about internships, but the idea of getting
permaculture into the classrooms is my main interest.
I am working on a permaculture project with an elementary school.
Right now it only focuses on the landscaping/agricultural side, because
it is hands on for the younger children.
The integration of permaculture into the curriculum is more
controversial. I think it is wise to be caucious about how you present
it. A good idea is to get support from related programs, like "Project
Wild", "Schoolyard Wildlife Habitat","Service Learning" to name a few.
"Future Farmers of America" can be revived.
Use the channels that are already in existance and be creative.
Almost every subject provides links to Permaculture integrate them where
applicable. Be careful with too radical ideas they are not understood
unless the groudwork is done. 

Good luck, Jenny

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 17 00:56:09 1997
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From: Pacific Edge Permaculture <pacedge@magna.com.au>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture in schools
References: <39838@sand.dsrt.com> <33F61861.64DC@dsrt.com>
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permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu wrote:
> >
> >    Also, I am in school to be a high school teacher, and would like to hear
> > from other teachers regarding bringing permaculture ideas into the classroom.
> >
> >                                                       Tim

Hi

We work with schools as permaculture consultants. At the moment we are
involved in a primary school in Sydney, Australia in a whole school/
community particpatory design of the school ground. The primary school
students use the site during school time and the community have access
after hours.

The design team is made up of community artist, Aboriginal
artist/storyteller, an architect and Pacific Edge Permaculture.

Other things happening in Australia - Carolyn Nuttall has produced a
wonderful little book on her experience teaching permaculture in a
Brisbane primary school. The title is a Childrens Food Forest and is
available from the Permaculture International Journal. She is working on
a set of worksheet to be published next year I think.

I think a secondary teacher, Ross Mars, from Perth, Western Australia,
is currently developing permaculture curricula materials which he
intends to publish as a book. Ross teaches permaculture as a school
subject.

After the Permaculture International Convergence last year we had a
permaculture in Schools networking day. Material from the participants 
was collated into a Permaculture in Schools kit and is available from us
for $Aus15 postage paid within Australia or $Aus20 overseas postage
paid.

We have carried out a survey based on a questionairre to discover what
is being practiced as permaculture in schools in Australia. I remember
that there are a few overseas respondents.

The survey is complete and we will do a minimum amount of interpretation
of the returned questionnaires and photocopy them for distribution as a
research information base for permaculture in schools activists,
teachers, community educators and playground planners following the
Australasian Permaculture Convergence in October this year. 

HOpe this information is of interest to you...
...Fiona and Russ

-------------------------
PACIFIC EDGE PERMACULTURE
Phone   02-9588 6931    (IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax     9514 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
          (IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: pacedge@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

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Date: 	Sun, 17 Aug 1997 13:17:20 -0400 (EDT)
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Articles in Scientific American
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I would like to point users of this list to the current issue of
Scientific American magazine, August, 1997.
There are two articles there that might be of special interest to you.

Page 35, RECYCLING:
"Farming With Lint"
 cotton lint improved water holding capacity by 300% &
 increased soil permeability significantly
Page 35, AGRONOMY:
"Getting the Dirt On Dirt"
  Fascinating discoveries about macroaggregates, the basic
  component of soil crumbs; these 1 millimeter particles provide housing
  for organisims that convert biomass into plant-available nutrients   

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
----=+=----
InterGarden
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
Venaura Farm
mailto:london@nuteknet.com
http://nuteknet.com/london
----------------------------------

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 17 22:56:55 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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> "Getting the Dirt On Dirt"
>   Fascinating discoveries about macroaggregates, the basic
>   component of soil crumbs; these 1 millimeter particles provide housing
>   for organisims that convert biomass into plant-available nutrients   

Actually you can read this article at the SA site at:

http://www.sciam.com/0897issue/0897techbus4.html


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Aug 27 08:58:15 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Legumes (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:45:38 -0400
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Legumes

Keith queried:

>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>us would be inoculating our seeds?
Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great at
finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how the
plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they have
found the bacteria. 

>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent or so --
ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are cut
release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
analogous for the nitrogen in the roots. 

>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended when soil
nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping and
receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, "catch
crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. For
these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of nitrogen,
it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), corn,
etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green such
as mustard. 

On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become established
on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue. 

As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit trees
tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems and
will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful Valley
in California. 

Jack Rowe
Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Aug 27 10:23:48 1997
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From: Mike Skinner <easyhay@arn.net>
To: "'permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu'" <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: RE: Legumes (fwd)
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCB2C9.7CFC2040
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Jack,
     What kind of legume specifically would you recommend for the Texas =
panhandle
where I live? On dryland, particularily. The conflict I see is between =
water conservation and fertilizer/tilth improvement. This area receives =
between 15 to 25 inches in various sized events and temperatures usually =
10 to 15 below in winter and 100 degrees in the summer. Not to mention =
the wind of 45 mph. Challenging!
    Anyones' thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
        Sincerely,
           Mike Skinner, easyhay@arn.net

----------
From: 	Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@sunsite.unc.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, August 26, 1997 7:04 PM
To: 	permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: 	Legumes (fwd)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:45:38 -0400
From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: PC List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Legumes

Keith queried:

>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>us would be inoculating our seeds?
Depends... some, as the medics, are great nitrogen-fixers and also great =
at
finding the needed mycorhyzal (sp?) cohorts, at least here. Look to how =
the
plants grow in depleted deep sandy soils for a hint as to whether they =
have
found the bacteria.=20

>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
Most of the nitrogen fixed by a legume -- from 40 to 90 percent or so --
ends up in the leaves (since leaf production is the major use of the
nitrogen by the plant), so the tops are most important. Tops which are =
cut
release from 40% (cut and let lie) to 60% (cut and dig in) of their
nitrogen the first year, on average, and one might expect something
analogous for the nitrogen in the roots.=20

>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil=20
>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
In accord with what you've written (nitrogen-fixing is suspended when =
soil
nitrogen is adequate), no. Much more effective under conditions of high
nitrogen is either 1) cropping, or 2) catch-cropping. Cropping is good
sense, usually the soil is improved just for the purposes of cropping =
and
receiving a yield. If season or other conditions are inappropriate, =
"catch
crops" are used to capture nitrogen and any other available nutrients. =
For
these purposes a catch crop is wanted that has high nutritional
requirements for the mineral element in question. In the case of =
nitrogen,
it's hard to beat the grasses -- annual rye, oats or wheat (crops), =
corn,
etc. Dry matter production by grasses can easily double that of a good
legume. I like the idea of a mix, such as of a grass and a leafy green =
such
as mustard.=20

On the other hand, the Land Institute in Kansas, USA has found in
establishing prairie plant mixes that the more legume species that are
included in an initial seeding, the greater will be the number of ALL
species (whether legume, grass, broadleaf, etc.) which become =
established
on a permanent basis. So nitrogen is not always the main or only issue.=20

As for planting under trees, tap-rooted plants are best since fruit =
trees
tend to concentrate feeder roots on or near the surface. Mustard is good
here, too, comfrey, etc., but most grasses have phenomenal root systems =
and
will compete strongly with fruit trees. Pasture mixes of non-competitive
grass/legume mixes can be gotten from such supply houses as Peaceful =
Valley
in California.=20

Jack Rowe
Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
jackrowe@compuserve.com




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------ =_NextPart_000_01BCB2C9.7CFC2040--

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Aug 27 13:03:50 1997
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From: "Eugene F. Monaco" <EFMonaco@compuserve.com>
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Hey Jack,
Excellent to see your words of wisdom on this list.
How about giving us an update on cross timbers PI.
I've been following along with interest as it seems permaculture institutes
in America have a short half life.  We're all struggling with funding,
clients, unenlightened landlords, and the need for transitional basics in
these transitional times (things like cars, gas, kids...).
I'd like to see this list get going more.  Ecobalance is driving me crazy.
Regards,
Gene Monaco
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
East Tennessee Permaculture  (EFMonaco@compuserve.com)
Herbs, consultations, & training for total health and environmental
sustainability
PO Box 11851, Knoxville, TN  37939      (423) 457-4354
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug 28 15:52:12 1997
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: cover crop resources
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Mike Skinner, easyhay@arn.net, asked:
“What kind of legume specifically would you recommend for the Texas
panhandle where I live? On dryland, particularily. The conflict I see is
between water conservation and fertilizer/tilth improvement. This area
receives between 15 to 25 inches in various sized events and temperatures
usually 10 to 15 below in winter and 100 degrees in the summer. Not to
mention the wind of 45 mph. Challenging!”

Soil testing is a good starting idea, many legumes will not fix N
effectively without good Phosphorous and trace minerals. In dry areas, a
plant’s drought-tolerating strategies are cogent... mesquite and alfalfa
both grow in drought, but do so by sending deep roots after subsurface
water and can make subsequent crops suffer by drying deep soils, for
instance (mesquites indicate subsurface water within about 50 feet).
Swaling, and on-contour furrowing between swales, are especially-useful in
dry climates. Don’t forget trees when using swales.

Some commonly-available cover crops good on a variety of soils include:
Oats (Avena sativa) 
Tall Fescue (Festuca aruninacea)
Black Medic (Medicago lupulina) -- n-fixing
Alfalfa (Medicago sativa) -- n-fixing, drought-hardy
Sweet clovers (Melilotus alba, White, and M. officinalis, Yellow) --
n-fixing
Annual Ryegrass (Secale spp)
Redtop (Agrostis alba)
Rose Clover (Trifolium hirtum) -- n-fixing
Vetches (Vicia spp) and Vetchlings (Lathyrus spp) use 15 - 20 inches of
water
Sorghums (Sorghum bicolor) heat- and drought-tolerant

The medicagos as a group are pretty impressive; the fava and bell beans are
good in sandy soils in winter; Prairie clovers (Petalasemum spp --
spelling?) can be very successful in rainfalls as low as 14 inches; vetches
are very cold-hardy (favas are a Vicia); the winter grasses create large
dry biomass, capture excess N and K left at the end of the season and
operate during a commonly-unused time of year; mung beans, radishes and
buckwheat are extremely-rapid growers and can be ready to mow or
incorporate in as few as 35 days; redtop and sorghums are amazing in heat
and drought; cowpeas will produce a lot of green matter with
relatively-little water; mustard is cold-hardy and will collect calcium (if
it’s there)...

Best is to know your soil and find a number of learning resources to
combine... my favorites:

ATTRA (Appropriate Tech Transfer for Rural Areas -- heaven help us if the
Republicans have finally gotten this one -- we really need a Democrat in
the White House about now!). ATTRA will send you the best single packet
about cover crops that I know of, as well as on a broad variety of other
subjects. These guys are GREAT!
PO Box 3657
Fayetteville, AR  72702
800-346-9140

County Extension Agents -- I know, I know, but if you listen carefully and
translate you can glean a lot of actually-useful information. Don’t follow
their advice and dump an entire season’s highly-soluble nitrate fertilizer
on your soil at the start of the year (hmmm...), but soil testing is cheap
and can be used as a reference point, and they will lead you to the
conventional cover crop sources which perform in your area. Ditto the local
farmer’s co-op/feed store. 

Library -- lots of good books, often the somewhat older ones are best.

Great Outdoors -- lots of hints here... look in drainage ditches and weedy
areas to see which plants have done well enough to have escaped, etc.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Aug 28 16:26:44 1997
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Subject: cover crop resources
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Mike Skinner, easyhay@arn.net, asked:
“What kind of legume specifically would you recommend for the Texas
panhandle where I live? On dryland, particularily. The conflict I see is
between water conservation and fertilizer/tilth improvement. This area
receives between 15 to 25 inches in various sized events and temperatures
usually 10 to 15 below in winter and 100 degrees in the summer. Not to
mention the wind of 45 mph. Challenging!”

Soil testing is a good starting idea, many legumes will not fix N
effectively without good Phosphorous and trace minerals. In dry areas, a
plant’s drought-tolerating strategies are cogent... mesquite and alfalfa
both grow in drought, but do so by sending deep roots after subsurface
water and can make subsequent crops suffer by drying deep soils, for
instance (mesquites indicate subsurface water within about 50 feet).
Swaling, and on-contour furrowing between swales, are especially-useful in
dry climates. Don’t forget trees when using swales.

Some commonly-available cover crops good on a variety of soils include:
Oats (Avena sativa) 
Tall Fescue (Festuca aruninacea)
Black Medic (Medicago lupulina) -- n-fixing
Alfalfa (Medicago sativa) -- n-fixing, drought-hardy
Sweet clovers (Melilotus alba, White, and M. officinalis, Yellow) --
n-fixing
Annual Ryegrass (Secale spp)
Redtop (Agrostis alba)
Rose Clover (Trifolium hirtum) -- n-fixing
Vetches (Vicia spp) and Vetchlings (Lathyrus spp) use 15 - 20 inches of
water
Sorghums (Sorghum bicolor) heat- and drought-tolerant

The medicagos as a group are pretty impressive; the fava and bell beans are
good in sandy soils in winter; Prairie clovers (Petalasemum spp --
spelling?) can be very successful in rainfalls as low as 14 inches; vetches
are very cold-hardy (favas are a Vicia); the winter grasses create large
dry biomass, capture excess N and K left at the end of the season and
operate during a commonly-unused time of year; mung beans, radishes and
buckwheat are extremely-rapid growers and can be ready to mow or
incorporate in as few as 35 days; redtop and sorghums are amazing in heat
and drought; cowpeas will produce a lot of green matter with
relatively-little water; mustard is cold-hardy and will collect calcium (if
it’s there)...

Best is to know your soil and find a number of learning resources to
combine... my favorites:

ATTRA (Appropriate Tech Transfer for Rural Areas -- heaven help us if the
Republicans have finally gotten this one -- we really need a Democrat in
the White House about now!). ATTRA will send you the best single packet
about cover crops that I know of, as well as on a broad variety of other
subjects. These guys are GREAT!
PO Box 3657
Fayetteville, AR  72702
800-346-9140

County Extension Agents -- I know, I know, but if you listen carefully and
translate you can glean a lot of actually-useful information. Don’t follow
their advice and dump an entire season’s highly-soluble nitrate fertilizer
on your soil at the start of the year (hmmm...), but soil testing is cheap
and can be used as a reference point, and they will lead you to the
conventional cover crop sources which perform in your area. Ditto the local
farmer’s co-op/feed store. 

Library -- lots of good books, often the somewhat older ones are best.

Great Outdoors -- lots of hints here... look in drainage ditches and weedy
areas to see which plants have done well enough to have escaped, etc.

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Aug 28 17:01:43 1997
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From: "Andy Clark, SAN    Coordinator" <san@nal.usda.gov>
To: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
Cc: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Re: cover crop resources
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The Sustainable Agriculture Network (SAN) published a cover crop handbook 
called *Managing Cover Crops Profitably* (1992).  It is less useful for 
dryland than for humid region cover cropping, however.  It can be found 
on the Web at http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/san/
Choose publications.  

If you can't use it for free from the Web,
Cost is $9.95, available by 
sending your check, or purchase order to:

     Sustainable Agriculture Publications
     Hills Building, Room 12
     University of Vermont
     Burlington, VT 05405-0082

Bulk discounts are available. Contact Merideth Simpson for information
about bulk discounts at (802) 656-0471 (calls only for information about
bulk discounts, please), or msimpson@zoo.uvm.edu


Other good cover crop information can be found at:
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/sarep/ccrop/

Excerpted from the Davis page:

UC SAREP Cover Crop
Resource Page 

UC SAREP Cover Crop Database

The UC SAREP Cover Crop Database includes over 5,000 items gleaned from
more than 600 separate sources, including journal articles, conference
proceedings, standard textbooks, unpublished data, and personal
communications from researchers and farmers. The information in the
database concerns the management and effects of more than 32 species of
plants usable as cover crops. More than 400 different cover crop images
are also available for viewing online. The database was developed with
funding from USDA's Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education program
(SARE), the State of California's Water Resources Control Board, and the
California Energy Commission. 

Also, the Alternative Farming Systems Information Center (AFSIC) at the 
National Agricultural Library has a bibliography called 
*Green Manures and Cover Crops*, also on the web at 
http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/
Choose publications.

I second the recommendation to get the ATTRA publication.

Andy Clark, Ph.D.
SAN Coordinator
c/o AFSIC, Room 304
National Agricultural Library
10301 Baltimore Ave.
Beltsville, MD  20705-2351
PH:  301-504-6425
FAX: 301-504-6409
san@nal.usda.gov
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/san/

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug 28 17:17:10 1997
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: ATTRA!!
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This resource is too good to have missed even if you refused to wade
through to the end of my long-winded "cover crop resources" post:

ATTRA (Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas).
PO Box 3657
Fayetteville, AR  72702
800-346-9140
ATTRA will send you the best single packet about cover crops that I know
of, as well as others on a broad variety of subjects. Packets on each
subject are compiled from a variety of sources and are very thorough. These
folks are GREAT! 

Jack Rowe
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
PO Box 9882
College Station, TX  77842
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Thu Aug 28 17:28:06 1997
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To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
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Subject: ATTRA!!
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This resource is too good to have missed even if you refused to wade
through to the end of my long-winded "cover crop resources" post:

ATTRA (Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas).
PO Box 3657
Fayetteville, AR  72702
800-346-9140
ATTRA will send you the best single packet about cover crops that I know
of, as well as others on a broad variety of subjects. Packets on each
subject are compiled from a variety of sources and are very thorough. These
folks are GREAT! 

Jack Rowe
Seeds of Texas Seed Exchange
PO Box 9882
College Station, TX  77842
jackrowe@compuserve.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 29 02:10:00 1997
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Date: 	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:44:40 -0700
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From: Keith Elwell-Gavins <keitheg@tpgi.com.au>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: perma@eepo.com.au, permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: Legumes
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Mike Skinner wrote:
> 
> Jack,
>      What kind of legume specifically would you recommend for the Texas panhandle
> where I live? On dryland, particularily. The conflict I see is between water conservation and fertilizer/tilth improvement. This area receives between 15 to 25 inches in various sized events and temperatures usually 10 to 15 below in winter and 100 degrees in the summer. Not to mention the wind of 45 mph. Challenging!
>     Anyones' thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
>         Sincerely,
>            Mike Skinner, easyhay@arn.net
> 

Mike, 
        From my earlier post you can see that I'm also looking at the
use of legumes in PC. My climate here on the central tablelands
of inland New South Wales is also pretty severe with -10 degrees C
winters to 40C summers. Rainfall is about 600 mm (24") but we seem
to be having 3 or 4 years of drought out of every 5 at the moment.

One of the best local legumes I have growing wild is the acacia
species which have the advantages of being:
 
1. quick growing in almost any soil, 
2. perennial, 
3. leguminous, 
4. drought and frost tolerant, 
5. fairly open in habit and therefore does not create too much shade 
for understory spp., 
6. wide variability from small shrubs to trees.
7. profuse flowering with subsequent good drop of pods and seeds,
8. many seeds edible (makes a great coffee substitute!)
9. winter flowering (aesthetically stunning when in flower - a benefit
I think we often ignore in PC in our quest for functionality),
10. seeds will keep for many years.

The only negatives would perhaps be their relatively short life 
(5 - 10 years for the local spp. - some live longer). Their life can be
extended by prunning (and as Jack Rowe pointed out from 40 to 90 
percent or so of nitrogen ends up in the leaves, so this is a good way
to return nutrients every year). Also the seeds need to be activate
before planting by soaking or scarifying, but this is easy and the
germination rate is high. 

Most acacias are shrubs in the 2-3 metre range and will grow in the 
most hostile soils. They are usually fairly open and so allow 
understory plants without difficulty. (I am researching the use of
ground-cover acacias which the local nursery industry have developed
as well as tracking down any natural cultivars - as a ground cover I
think they will be excellent in PC). Our local species are pioneers and
seed naturally in the most degraded and disturbed spots. They like
growing underneath open eucalypts, but this is not symbiotic and are
quite happy on their own even in fairly dense concentrations (there is 
a local acacia farm forestry trial taking place by the government 
research body (CSIRO) - I am attending a progress seminar on this at 
the end of September - I'll post a report).

So, I guess you can see that I like acacias. As a PC plant they are
among the best, but even in Australia they have not yet been used to
their maximum benefit. I do not know what species you have available, 
but I think many of our varieties have been exported. If you do have
any Australian spp. available, let me know and I will give you the
horticultural info on them and suitabilty to your site.

All the best, Keith.

 =====================
  Keith Elwell-Gavins
    Queanbeyan, NSW
      Australia
 =====================

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 29 02:10:03 1997
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Date: 	Fri, 29 Aug 1997 15:42:35 -0700
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From: Keith Elwell-Gavins <keitheg@tpgi.com.au>
To: permaculture@envirolink.org
Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Legumes
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Jack Rowe's reply to my original message sent to Permaculture WA 
<perma@eepo.com.au> was also sent here, so I am sending the original
to fill in the gaps for those not on perma@eepo.com.au.

Rgards, Keith

---------------------------------------------------------------
Hi to all!

A couple of weekends ago I attended the South Coast Field day at
Candelo, NSW. It was refreshing to go to an Ag Show and not have
to walk around $1 million combine harvesters or be bombarded with
the latest agro-chemical free samples and trees-worth of glossy
hype, although I did accept a sample bag of seaweed compost :-)

However, for me the highlights of the weekend were the lectures
given by David Holmgren who spoke on 'Farm Forestry and Regrowth'
on the Saturday, and 'A Permaculture Approach to Weeds' on the
Sunday. It was the first time I had heard David speak, and was
very impressed at both his professionalism, presentation skills, 
and content. His talks were interesting and always tinged with
a hint of anarchism (particularly regarding his definition of
weeds, which made some Landcare adherents shift uneasily a couple
of times!) Pat Coleby also spoke on 'Natural Animal Care and Farming'
- although I did not catch Pat's lecture. Having read much of her
material, I'm sure it was another fascinating hour.

The third speaker for the weekend (which is really the reason for
this post) was Greg Bender, a research biologist who spoke on 
'The Role of Legumes Working for Us'. Greg showed how the fixation
of nitrogen by legumes is not an automatic process simply because
the plant is growing. Two major factors which determine the quantity
of atmospheric nitrogen fixed are the level of nutrients in the soil
and the availability of the correct mycorrhizal bacteria.

If the soil is already rich in nutrients (particularly nitrogen)
then the legume will simply grow like a normal plant using the 
elements from the soil, and very little atmospheric nitrogen will
be fixed. The nitrogen nodules may still grow on the roots, but
they will not be functioning (Greg showed how to test a nodule
to see if atmospheric fixing was taking place). In other words,
it is the poorest soils which will fire legumes into fixing the
most atmospheric nitrogen.

However, no nitrogen will be fixed at all if the correct 
mycorrhizal bacteria is missing, as it is the symbiotic 
relationship between the plant and the bacteria which fixes
the nitrogen - the plant cannot do it on its own. Most native
legumes are able to find the appropriate mycorrhiza in our soils,
but introduced species may have a hard time finding the one they
need. This is why legume crops are now inoculated with a species-
specific mycorrhiza (this is the area Greg now works in - 
identifying and manufacturing the specific mycorrhiza for farm
legume crops).

And so, finally, to the questions :-)

1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
us would be inoculating our seeds?

2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?

3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?

Hope someone can give some light on this. I am just establishing
a small permaculture demonstration orchard, and need to think about
what to grow underneath the trees. Traditional permaculture lore has 
it that a mixture of perennial low-growing legumes is the way to go
(pigeon pea, etc), but I now think that ground cover acacias may 
be a better bet. Any thoughts?

Regards, and thanks for your patience.

Keith

 =====================
  Keith Elwell-Gavins
    Queanbeyan, NSW
      Australia
 =====================


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 02:25:31 1997
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From: Keith Elwell-Gavins <keitheg@tpgi.com.au>
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Subject: Re: Legumes
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Jack Rowe's reply to my original message sent to Permaculture WA 
<perma@eepo.com.au> was also sent here, so I am sending the original
to fill in the gaps for those not on perma@eepo.com.au.

Rgards, Keith

---------------------------------------------------------------
Hi to all!

A couple of weekends ago I attended the South Coast Field day at
Candelo, NSW. It was refreshing to go to an Ag Show and not have
to walk around $1 million combine harvesters or be bombarded with
the latest agro-chemical free samples and trees-worth of glossy
hype, although I did accept a sample bag of seaweed compost :-)

However, for me the highlights of the weekend were the lectures
given by David Holmgren who spoke on 'Farm Forestry and Regrowth'
on the Saturday, and 'A Permaculture Approach to Weeds' on the
Sunday. It was the first time I had heard David speak, and was
very impressed at both his professionalism, presentation skills, 
and content. His talks were interesting and always tinged with
a hint of anarchism (particularly regarding his definition of
weeds, which made some Landcare adherents shift uneasily a couple
of times!) Pat Coleby also spoke on 'Natural Animal Care and Farming'
- although I did not catch Pat's lecture. Having read much of her
material, I'm sure it was another fascinating hour.

The third speaker for the weekend (which is really the reason for
this post) was Greg Bender, a research biologist who spoke on 
'The Role of Legumes Working for Us'. Greg showed how the fixation
of nitrogen by legumes is not an automatic process simply because
the plant is growing. Two major factors which determine the quantity
of atmospheric nitrogen fixed are the level of nutrients in the soil
and the availability of the correct mycorrhizal bacteria.

If the soil is already rich in nutrients (particularly nitrogen)
then the legume will simply grow like a normal plant using the 
elements from the soil, and very little atmospheric nitrogen will
be fixed. The nitrogen nodules may still grow on the roots, but
they will not be functioning (Greg showed how to test a nodule
to see if atmospheric fixing was taking place). In other words,
it is the poorest soils which will fire legumes into fixing the
most atmospheric nitrogen.

However, no nitrogen will be fixed at all if the correct 
mycorrhizal bacteria is missing, as it is the symbiotic 
relationship between the plant and the bacteria which fixes
the nitrogen - the plant cannot do it on its own. Most native
legumes are able to find the appropriate mycorrhiza in our soils,
but introduced species may have a hard time finding the one they
need. This is why legume crops are now inoculated with a species-
specific mycorrhiza (this is the area Greg now works in - 
identifying and manufacturing the specific mycorrhiza for farm
legume crops).

And so, finally, to the questions :-)

1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
us would be inoculating our seeds?

2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?

3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?

Hope someone can give some light on this. I am just establishing
a small permaculture demonstration orchard, and need to think about
what to grow underneath the trees. Traditional permaculture lore has 
it that a mixture of perennial low-growing legumes is the way to go
(pigeon pea, etc), but I now think that ground cover acacias may 
be a better bet. Any thoughts?

Regards, and thanks for your patience.

Keith

 =====================
  Keith Elwell-Gavins
    Queanbeyan, NSW
      Australia
 =====================


From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 02:33:32 1997
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Subject: Re: Legumes
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Mike Skinner wrote:
> 
> Jack,
>      What kind of legume specifically would you recommend for the Texas panhandle
> where I live? On dryland, particularily. The conflict I see is between water conservation and fertilizer/tilth improvement. This area receives between 15 to 25 inches in various sized events and temperatures usually 10 to 15 below in winter and 100 degrees in the summer. Not to mention the wind of 45 mph. Challenging!
>     Anyones' thoughts and comments would be appreciated.
>         Sincerely,
>            Mike Skinner, easyhay@arn.net
> 

Mike, 
        From my earlier post you can see that I'm also looking at the
use of legumes in PC. My climate here on the central tablelands
of inland New South Wales is also pretty severe with -10 degrees C
winters to 40C summers. Rainfall is about 600 mm (24") but we seem
to be having 3 or 4 years of drought out of every 5 at the moment.

One of the best local legumes I have growing wild is the acacia
species which have the advantages of being:
 
1. quick growing in almost any soil, 
2. perennial, 
3. leguminous, 
4. drought and frost tolerant, 
5. fairly open in habit and therefore does not create too much shade 
for understory spp., 
6. wide variability from small shrubs to trees.
7. profuse flowering with subsequent good drop of pods and seeds,
8. many seeds edible (makes a great coffee substitute!)
9. winter flowering (aesthetically stunning when in flower - a benefit
I think we often ignore in PC in our quest for functionality),
10. seeds will keep for many years.

The only negatives would perhaps be their relatively short life 
(5 - 10 years for the local spp. - some live longer). Their life can be
extended by prunning (and as Jack Rowe pointed out from 40 to 90 
percent or so of nitrogen ends up in the leaves, so this is a good way
to return nutrients every year). Also the seeds need to be activate
before planting by soaking or scarifying, but this is easy and the
germination rate is high. 

Most acacias are shrubs in the 2-3 metre range and will grow in the 
most hostile soils. They are usually fairly open and so allow 
understory plants without difficulty. (I am researching the use of
ground-cover acacias which the local nursery industry have developed
as well as tracking down any natural cultivars - as a ground cover I
think they will be excellent in PC). Our local species are pioneers and
seed naturally in the most degraded and disturbed spots. They like
growing underneath open eucalypts, but this is not symbiotic and are
quite happy on their own even in fairly dense concentrations (there is 
a local acacia farm forestry trial taking place by the government 
research body (CSIRO) - I am attending a progress seminar on this at 
the end of September - I'll post a report).

So, I guess you can see that I like acacias. As a PC plant they are
among the best, but even in Australia they have not yet been used to
their maximum benefit. I do not know what species you have available, 
but I think many of our varieties have been exported. If you do have
any Australian spp. available, let me know and I will give you the
horticultural info on them and suitabilty to your site.

All the best, Keith.

 =====================
  Keith Elwell-Gavins
    Queanbeyan, NSW
      Australia
 =====================

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 29 06:02:08 1997
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Subject: Re:  cover crop resources
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Hi,
	Just to say that Plants For a Future has got a little
information about ground cover plants
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/grdcover.html
as well as a checklist of 250 plants which can be used for ground cover.
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ground1.html
Although I'm not sure if they are anything like as comprehensive
as the other resources mentioed so far.

		Rich

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 06:12:39 1997
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Hi,
	Just to say that Plants For a Future has got a little
information about ground cover plants
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/grdcover.html
as well as a checklist of 250 plants which can be used for ground cover.
	http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/ground1.html
Although I'm not sure if they are anything like as comprehensive
as the other resources mentioed so far.

		Rich

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 09:01:28 1997
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In a message dated 8/29/97 5:05:47 AM, keitheg@tpgi.com.au (Keith
Elwell-Gavins) wrote:

>So, I guess you can see that I like acacias. As a PC plant they are
>among the best, but even in Australia they have not yet been used to
>their maximum benefit. I do not know what species you have available, 
>but I think many of our varieties have been exported. If you do have
>any Australian spp. available, let me know and I will give you the
>horticultural info on them and suitabilty to your site.
>
>All the best, Keith.


Nice post, Keith.

In the Philippines I was taken by a procumbant woody mimosa-family plant that
makes an excellent groundcover, is green when everything else is dead, and
manages to fix nitrogen somehow even in compacted soil.  I felt that it would
be a good plant to substitute for white Dutch clover in a Fukuoka system, but
the locals disagreed because the plant is spiny and Filipinos garden
barefoot!  However in the USA  such plants would be very useful in areas
which experience drought.  Like most species that survive drought due to deep
taproots, they probably need a wet season to get established, or else
irrigation.  It would be interesting to see if rabbits avoid the spines.  By
a strange coincidence, there seem to be some growing in my father's Florida
lawn, where they have survived his propensity for mowing.

As for Acacia spp in the US, an excellent source for seed is JL Hudson.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Aug 29 11:12:33 1997
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: understory to hardy nuts?
References: <2547.199708290942@csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk>
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We have a planting project called the Theatre of Plant.  7 acres of
former pasture on the dark side of a creek valley.  Zone 4 Wisconsin. 
My overstory planting is all manner of nut that will grow in WI.  Im
interested in entertaining suggestion of possible understory plants for
the buartnut, butternut, walnut plantings & for the chestnut plantings. 
I have a pretty good idea but would really like to get some surprise
suggestions.

Also most of the trees are 2-3 years old & are just now starting to take
off, especially since the actual way that trees get established here in
the cold north is they die back to the ground for 2-3 years & then after
that start to take off.  Any way my further question is does it make
sense to start putting understory plants in at this early stage.  I know
the obvious answer would be cover crops but we have neither the money or
did I want to do anymore tilling on this land that has lain fallow for
20 years.

Miekal And

I second the notion that the juicy response to cover crop resources was
quite entertaining as a one time intervention.  Gave me a good laugh
anyway.


-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
http://net22.com/qazingulaza
e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Fri Aug 29 11:16:12 1997
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: understory to hardy nuts?
References: <2547.199708290942@csgi15.scs.leeds.ac.uk>
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We have a planting project called the Theatre of Plant.  7 acres of
former pasture on the dark side of a creek valley.  Zone 4 Wisconsin. 
My overstory planting is all manner of nut that will grow in WI.  Im
interested in entertaining suggestion of possible understory plants for
the buartnut, butternut, walnut plantings & for the chestnut plantings. 
I have a pretty good idea but would really like to get some surprise
suggestions.

Also most of the trees are 2-3 years old & are just now starting to take
off, especially since the actual way that trees get established here in
the cold north is they die back to the ground for 2-3 years & then after
that start to take off.  Any way my further question is does it make
sense to start putting understory plants in at this early stage.  I know
the obvious answer would be cover crops but we have neither the money or
did I want to do anymore tilling on this land that has lain fallow for
20 years.

Miekal And

I second the notion that the juicy response to cover crop resources was
quite entertaining as a one time intervention.  Gave me a good laugh
anyway.


-- 
@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
http://net22.com/qazingulaza
e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sat Aug 30 08:13:46 1997
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Subject: Re:  understory to hardy nuts?
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In a message dated 8/29/97 11:10:26 AM, dtv@mwt.net wrote:

>We have a planting project called the Theatre of Plant.  7 acres of
>former pasture on the dark side of a creek valley.  Zone 4 Wisconsin. 
>My overstory planting is all manner of nut that will grow in WI.  Im
>interested in entertaining suggestion of possible understory plants for
>the buartnut, butternut, walnut plantings & for the chestnut plantings. 
>I have a pretty good idea but would really like to get some surprise
>suggestions.
>
>Also most of the trees are 2-3 years old & are just now starting to take
>off, especially since the actual way that trees get established here in
>the cold north is they die back to the ground for 2-3 years & then after
>that start to take off.  Any way my further question is does it make
>sense to start putting understory plants in at this early stage.  I know
>the obvious answer would be cover crops but we have neither the money or
>did I want to do anymore tilling on this land that has lain fallow for
>20 years.
>
>Miekal And
>
>I second the notion that the juicy response to cover crop resources was
>quite entertaining as a one time intervention.  Gave me a good laugh
>anyway.
>
>
>-- 
>@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
>Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
>QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
>http://net22.com/qazingulaza
>e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

Hi Miekal:

First, understory is too broad a term.  You want trees that temporarily fill
the space, drip line species, shelterbelt species (which would have reduced
your winter die-back), edge species and species that stand under canopy.

I'm not sure if any of the dogwoods will take zone 4.  Cornus florida
probably will not, but look at Cornus kousa and maybe some of the more
obscure species.  Are you in white pine country?  Probably, eh?  Well that
can't be too bad, white pines being particularly sacred trees, but it does
limit your choice of Ribes, species of which grow right up to the arctic
circle.  There is a selection of plums that will grow in your area and make
nice little wildlife thickets.  You don't mention deer browse pressure but I
think we can assume it is severe, particularly if you happent to be
vegetarian.  You can probably find black locust, Robinia psuedoacacia, that
can handle your winters--I've seen them as huge trees at about your latitude
in New Hampshire and Vermont.  If you can't or don't want to bother finding
cold-adapted parent plants of these trees (easily grown from seed--we have
them that routinely take -35 F  on an exposed westerly slope, there are
memberd of the Eleagnus (or Aeleagnus) genus that will fix nitrogen better,
though not produce as many uses otherwise.  There are Alnus species that will
thrive in your areas, whatever your soil moisture conditions, and they are
good N-fixers.  Generally, the N-fixers shade out pretty well as their
companions get large.  Don't neglect the brambles--I'd have to go back and
check on black raspberry, which is, of course, choice, but there are
blackberries that can colonize and hold.  Brambles, dogwoods, and of course
the old standby red cedar (Juniperus virginiana and related species) cycle
mineral nutrients to the feeder root zone--very important.  I suspect, but
have seen no evidence, that hopbeam and hopbeam serve this or similar
functions.  You need to wait a bit, though, before putting these in as I
think they like a little cover to establish.  This is just a guess.  I hope
you will mix a little sugar maple in the planting, as it is having such a
hard time with genetic erosion and is such a majestic and useful tree.  Don't
miss the obvious, like blueberry.  Avoid allelopathic species such as braken,
sunflower genus, goldenrod, etc.  Knock the bracken and goldenrod down when
it tries to establish.  Planting patterns on the juglandacea will determin
what plants will not survive its root exudates.  Black walnut will hammer red
raspberry (do any species make it in zone 4?) but not black raspberry
(ditto?).  
	We looked at about 1,000 species in a design we did for a very exposed place
on Georgean Bay, Northern Ontario (after failing to pursuade the client to
pick a sheltered spot.)  Email me about terms for the species list we
developed.

	Don't forget larch--larch is a good one and will produce some useful timber
between the trees that you want to grow straight.

I assume you have checked Bill McKentley's St. Lawrence Nurseries Catalog.
 Everything in there will work--tons of stuff, much of it highly selected for
good cultivars.  Gods, put in a few apples. They are actually a good edge
species on, your northerly edges particularly, and with adequate shade, but
not too much, never need pruning to develop the correct scaffold.  they are
light bearers in this situation, but they are something where before there
was nothing.  There are some damn tough apple cultivars around, same with
pears which will actually stand in your forest for 500 years or so before
being shaded out if you don't ruin them with pruning.  I'd avoid rosa
multiflora as it actually climbs up into trees like a vine.

Are you doing any management with livestock.  Again, that would make a
difference.  Moveable poultry and/or pigs on free range can help keep the
undesirable vegetation down, particularly after you throw a bucket of corn in
a mess you want cleaned up.  Used this way, corn is a much nicer herbicide
than 2-4-5 T, if they still sell that awful stuff--2-4 D is bad enough.  You
get something back for your efforts, to, and cycle nutrients where your trees
can use them.  Avoid ruminants until your nut trees are well off the ground.

Don't forget hazel, witch and otherwise.

Well, email me about the full list.  This is taking too long.  Good luck.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA  Yank
eePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 30 09:39:22 1997
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From: simonize@aa.net (Simon Henderson)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Virus alert -Forwarded
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>>>Subject: Virus alert
>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
>>>Content-Type: text/plain
>>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>>
>>>Note:
>>>
>>>WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE  CREW" DO NOT
>>>open it!
>>>It will erase EVERYTHING on your hard drive! Send this letter out to as
>>>many people you can.......this is a new virus and not many people know
>>>about it!
>>>
>>>This information was received this morning from IBM, please share it with
>>>anyone that might access the Internet.
>>>
>>>Also, if anyone receives mail entitled; PENPAL GREETINGS! please delete
>>>it WITHOUT reading it!!  This is a warning for all Internet users - there
>>>is a dangerous virus propagating across the Internet through an e-mail
>>>message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!".
>>>
>>>DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY MESSAGE ENTITLED "PENPAL GREETINGS"!!
>>>
>>>This message appears to be a friendly letter asking you if you are
>>>interested in a penpal, but by the time you read this letter, it is too
>>>late. The trojan horse" virus will have already infected the boot
>>>sector of your hard drive, destroying all of the data present.  It is a
>>>self-replicating virus, and once the message is read, it will
>>>AUTOMATICALLY forward itself to anyone who's e-mail address is
>>>present in YOUR mailbox!
>>>
>>>This virus will DESTROY your hard drive, and holds the potential to
>>>DESTROY the hard drive of anyone whose mail is in your in box, and who's
>>>mail is in  their in box and so on.  If this virus keeps getting passed,
>>>it has the potential to do a great deal of DAMAGE to computer networks
>>>worldwide!!!!
>>>
>>>Please, delete the message entitled "PENPAL GREETINGS!" as soon as you
>>>see it!  And pass this message along to all of your friends, relatives
>>>and the other readers of the newsgroups and mailing lists which you are
>>>on so that they are not hurt by this dangerous virus!!!!
>>>
>>>Please pass this along to everyone you know so this can be stopped.
>>>
>>>PASS THIS ON TO YOUR FRIENDS!!! WARNING !!!
>>>
>>>There is a new virus going arround in the last couple of days!!!
>>>DO NOT open or even look at any mail that you get that says: "Returned or
>>>Unable to Deliver" This virus will attach itself to your computer
>>>components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items
>>>that says this. AOL has said this is a very danderous virus, and there is
>>>NO remedy for it at this time, Please Be Careful, And forward to all your
>>>on-line friends A.S.A.P.
>>>
>>>Forward this A.S.A.P. to every single person you know!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>
>>>Bud Rankin
>>>Principal, INDESTRA
>>>Pho: (425) 776-4756
>>>Fax: (425) 776-4756
>>>Email: INDESTRA@foxinternet.net
>>>WWW: http://www.indestra.com


Simon Henderson
Bamboo People
322 N. 82nd St.
Seattle, WA 98103
(206) 784-3069
Email: simonize@aa.net


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 30 11:08:24 1997
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	I was planning on using 55 gallon drums for rainwater catchment and
storage until I realized how much rust had accumulated along the inside of
each barrel.  Does any one know if this rust would pose a significant risk
to plants that are irrigated with the water?  Is there such a thing as iron
toxicity or might there be other elements leached from the rust that would
be problematic in garden soils?  I live in the Pacific NW and to my
knowledge the basalt that comprises our parent material already lends a
moderate degree of Fe to our soils. 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 30 12:08:28 1997
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Subject: Re: understory to hardy nuts?
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	Hi there,
	I'm not from your zone, quite a different one actually - it's not the
twilight zone but close...the Pacific NW.  I've just begun experimenting
with understory plants beneath my nut orchard as well.  I've done some
research into the matter and the following is the synthesis of that
research.  I think most of what I've come up with will be applicable in
Wisconsin, if not it's at least worthy of consideration.

	I have intercropped black alders with my black walnuts.  The alder will
fix nitrogen and provide a valuable hardwood when I cut them once the
walnut canopy closes.  We have caged all these trees and soon will be
ranging a couple cows through the area to keep the grass and weeds down as
well as to fertilize the ground.
	With my shagbark hickories I have interplanted eleagnus umbellata (autumn
olive).  The latter will also fix nitrogen and attract birds to its
berries.  I will also soon innoculate the alder chip mulch beneath these
trees with Stropharia rugoso-annulata (King Stropharia), a giant mushroom
prized for its culinary virtues.  The mushroom culture is an experiment in
nutrient fixation and release from the woodchip medium. 
	I have also been broadcasting crimson clover and vetch on the bare soil
and/or mulch around the newly planted nut trees.  Once they've flowered
they're absolutely beautiful.
	A nut orchardist near me is ranging sheep beneath most of his trees.  By
their nature they are grazers rather than browsers so will manage the grass
and weeds but leave the trees alone. 

	Let me know what other information you come across.  I have a small grove
of chestnuts that I've yet to decide how to fertilize or manage as a
polyculture.    
	
	

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 30 12:13:51 1997
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This message was posted to the sci.bio.ecology newsgroup.

>If you are interested in building backyard habitats, nest boxes,
>bat boxes, dens, floating habitats or other structures for help wildlife,
>you might want to join our discussion list for wildlife habitat builders.

>Subscribing to the list is easy if you follow the instructions below:

>The list is managed by AUTOSHARE.  The email address for the AUTOSHARE
>list manager program is:
> 
>           AUTOSHARE@rip.physics.unk.edu
> 
>All commands for AUTOSHARE must be sent in the body of the message, not
>the subject line.  AUTOSHARE will ignore anything you put in the subject
>line.
> 
>To subscribe to the habitat builders list, send the following command to
>the AUTOSHARE email address:
> 
>     subscribe audubon <YOUR FULL NAME>
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>message to the list (audubon@rip.physics.unk.edu) telling us a little
>about yourself and your work.

>If you have any questions of difficulties, don't hesitate to contact me.

>Sincerely,

>Ted Andresen

>****************************************************************
>Ted Andresen
>1873 60th Ter NE
>St. Petersburg, FL 33703-1721
>USA
>email: sfk8suz@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us  
>Phone: (813) 526-6440
>***************************************************************





From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Aug 30 12:53:27 1997
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu,
        permaculture@envirolink.org
Subject: Re: understory to hardy nuts?
References: <970830080318_481978365@emout07.mail.aol.com>
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Id like to follow up on Dan H's response as to understory species &
mangagement.

1.  Im concerned about harvestability of the nuts, that is there are a
lot of brambles or autumn olive or other uncontrollable species that we
permaculturalists love, that it will make it much more difficult to
gather nuts.

2. I am also very interested to know if there is are any guilds that 
are companion to juglan species, with an emphasis on medicinal herbs,
economic species, food, wildlife cover, pollination.

3. The species that I have the least success with have been gingko,
beech, & hardy pecan.  What, in addition to tree tubes (dont flame me)
will increase there viability?

4.  Apples & Walnuts?

5.  Yes we are in the land of white pine. Does that mean definitively
that the ribes should not be planted?

6.  The area is being invaded by river willow on one side, poison ivy on
another & sumac on another.  Im guessing that the sumac & willow are
actually beneficial in this situation.  & that I should eradicate the
poison ivy.  Roundup?  Goats?  Sheet Mulch?  Who has experience with
things that work & dont have a lifetime case of poison ivy because of
it?

7. One comment.  There are more deer than people in Wisconsin.  They are
great fans of mulching because it exposes the young succulent trees from
the tall grasses.  Yet the trees benefit greatly from mulching.  Luckily
they seem not to have a taste for the walnut species, but they love the
chestnuts & poples.  In my design I am thinking of lining the deer paths
that all lead thru the orchard to the water below with nanking cherries
& other species that are most desirable to the deerpeople.  Any
thoughts?


Well Ive plastered youall with enough questions now, have to admit that
this is a great way to get design imput, but nothing replaces face to
face, so if any of you make it to wisconsin & have ideas about these
things Id love to walk you thru our various plantings.


Miekal And

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Sun Aug 31 08:13:40 1997
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In a message dated 8/30/97 1:13:56 PM, you wrote:

>Two major factors which determine the quantity
>of atmospheric nitrogen fixed are the level of nutrients in the soil
>and the availability of the correct mycorrhizal bacteria.
>
>If the soil is already rich in nutrients (particularly nitrogen)
>then the legume will simply grow like a normal plant using the 
>elements from the soil, and very little atmospheric nitrogen will
>be fixed. The nitrogen nodules may still grow on the roots, but
>they will not be functioning (Greg showed how to test a nodule
>to see if atmospheric fixing was taking place). In other words,
>it is the poorest soils which will fire legumes into fixing the
>most atmospheric nitrogen.
>
>However, no nitrogen will be fixed at all if the correct 
>mycorrhizal bacteria is missing, as it is the symbiotic 
>relationship between the plant and the bacteria which fixes
>the nitrogen - the plant cannot do it on its own. Most native
>legumes are able to find the appropriate mycorrhiza in our soils,
>but introduced species may have a hard time finding the one they
>need. This is why legume crops are now inoculated with a species-
>specific mycorrhiza (this is the area Greg now works in - 
>identifying and manufacturing the specific mycorrhiza for farm
>legume crops).
>
>And so, finally, to the questions :-)
>
>1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
>permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
>us would be inoculating our seeds?
>
>2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
>available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
>'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
>
>3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
>specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
>
>Hope someone can give some light on this. I am just establishing
>a small permaculture demonstration orchard, and need to think about
>what to grow underneath the trees. Traditional permaculture lore has 
>it that a mixture of perennial low-growing legumes is the way to go
>(pigeon pea, etc), but I now think that ground cover acacias may 
>be a better bet. Any thoughts?
>
>Regards, and thanks for your patience.


We seem to be going round and round on this. Let me try to clarify that parts
of this post that I know about.  Maybe others can fill in the blanks.

1)  Rhizobia do indeed reduce N fixation if enough mineral nitrogen is
present.  Nitrogen in organic form does not suppress fixation.  This is from
research reported in Farm Journal circa 1967, where  "conventional" chemical
nitrogen and nitrogen as organic chemicals, in the form of soybean meal, were
compared.  it is a little like putting a steak under your cabbage, which
would indeed increase results, but of course science likes nice uniform stuff
to measure and compare.  Therefore soil very high in N, but holding the vast
majority of N in organic form (micro-organisms, etc.), are great for the
legume crop and do not discourage it from playing its role.  This is
corroborated by my personal experience.  We have photographs showing
nodulation in rich soil in the Soils issue of THE INTERNATIONAL PERMACULTURE
SOLUTIONS JOURNAL.  Email me for details.
2)  Generally, legumes do not nodulate well in compacted soil.  (Nodulation
does not guarantee fixation, but it is not likely that much fixation takes
place without nodules.)  In a compacted alfalfa field (organic, by the way),
I could not find nodules to show to my students!  There is little point in
trying to fix dirt into nitrogen.  Rhizobia need air and compaction, by
definition, means that air pockets in soil have been driven away.
3)  Rhizobia, and maybe other N fixers--someone might be able to shed light
on thihs--require specific trace minerals.  They are more likely to be
present in highly organic soils, though not necessarily in optimum amounts.
 As I said, I use wood ash, when available, as trees have a long time to
sequester scarce nutrients. I've also used glacial gravel dust and granite
dust to good effect, though not so much as with wood ash, possibly due to pH
factors and added P.
4)  Crop legumes require adequate Phosphorous.  Though they are often
efficient P accumulators, they just don't grow if the P isn't present in
adequate amounts.  Stunted little legumes don't fix much N.  In this case, it
is the plant, not the rhizobium, that is limited, but the rhizobium needs
those "surplus" sugars from the plant.
5) pH is important and this must be learned for each legume species.
6)  Non leguminous species, such as alder or autumn olive, that use Frankia
instead of Rhizobia, are much more forgiving regarding soil conditions, as a
rule and are better pioneers in depleted conditions, some tolerating
waterlogged sites, such as alders, and some tolerating very scant moisture,
such a sweet fern.
The various bay laurels run the gamut--we have them here thriving where
temporarily flooded and/or subjected to drought, and at random seasons (A
"rainyi season" drought just broke last night with 3.4 inches of rain in an
hour.)  
7)  Who isn't innoculating their legumes?  Why not?  
8)  Mycorhizzae are often much species specific than rhizobia.  Alien strains
of rhizobia (from the exotic plants viewpoint) often work just fine.  And
then there are exceptions.  It is very complicated.  Because a mycorrhiza is
specific doesn't mean that the host plant and its rhizobia are.  It is a bit
complicated.  Get those soil organic levels up.  There are likely to be more
fungal species in highly organic soil for the same reason that most of us
would prefer a table full of food to an empty one.  These fungi are not
obligates (to my knowledge, probably there are exceptions), fortunately, and
can eat dung too. It's very complicated.  However start by introducing the
desired plant species, always innoculating (even if growing it may not have
the rhizobia needed for fixation as nursery fertilizar can keep it going.)
 Rhizobium innoculant is cheap--I innoculate even if the desired species is
"supposed" to be in my soil.  You can't eat suppositions.
9)  I am not sure that every species of rhizobium on one of its preferred
species of legume requires mycorrhizae.  I'm pretty sure that well matched
fungi will always help, but not positive.  We seem to be getting
oversimplifications here.  Again, refer to the soils issue of our journal,
mentioned above.
10)  No legitimate permaculturist is going to broadscale plant an exotic
legume without trials.  If they don't nodulate or if the nodules aren't
fixing, changes, including possibly legume species, need to be made.  In warm
climates, there is a good chance that a single rhizobium will fix for most of
your legumes, though they may do better with a more slective species of
fixer.  If in doubt, try the cowpea/peanut type rhizobium.  It fixes for many
many species.  Cool and cold temperate species tend to be a bit fussier.  We
tried all conventional garden inoculatnts on caragana to no availa in one of
our Massachusetts places.  Finally I bought some caragana seedlings (mine
were from seed), stripped off the nodules, made a slurry in a blender, and
washed it into the soil around the plants.  This worked and they took off
without further ado.  It is more conservative of inoculum to treat seeds, but
it is quite effective to treat established plants. Even drought-resistant
species like Caragana like mulch, by the way.  This also made a large
difference for plants.  

Well I feel as though I left out a few points.  I guess I should have made
notes before starting.  Well I'm sure someone else will fill in.

Oh yes, Keith.  Now I remember two.

10)  Pigeon pea is innoculated with cowpea type, though there are probably
more species specific rhizobia species in Africa as well.  I have no trouble
with ours fixing here once we were able to get the inoculant (this can be a
hassel in backwaters like most of Florida).  The ones planted before
rhizobium inoculation died.  


Well I forgot the other one again.

Time to sign off.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

The organizing principle of the Universe is silliness.


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Aug 31 21:24:11 1997
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From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: LOCAL Legumes are even better
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Hello From April, Permaculture Visions, (I believe you may have studied 
with us recently Keith, so - hi personally)

This interest in Nitrogen fixing was an ongoing debate when I left for the
UK
I don't have resources right know to dig up old transactions but I suspect
SUNSITE
keep some old articles from the news group.
About WHEN the nitrogen is released, it is sloughing all the time according
to
conditions "growth and dieback conditions".

Rather than introducing foreign (indigenous not just native) legume species
 (and an assortment of innoculating  bugs) for the specific purpose of
nitrogen fixing, 
lets look at the local species we have on hand.  Lets do the very old
fashioned
techniques of taking a small amount of soil from our natural functioning
and diverse
local forests to build up numbers.  
For centuries French farmers took a bucket of  rich soil from the
neighbouring forest 
each year to renew their fields.
I am sure on a large scale there is a market in
selling the right micro-organisms, but permaculture must retain its
small-is-good
objectives.

The other advantages of  staying local are: 
1. each region retains its unique soil flora and fauna,
2. disease and dominant soil species of other areas are not introduced.

Food for thought,
April

April Sampson-Kelly
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make this world a better place

----------
> From: Keith Elwell-Gavins <keitheg@tpgi.com.au>
> To: permaculture@envirolink.org
> Cc: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Subject: Re: Legumes
> Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 8:42 AM
> 
> Jack Rowe's reply to my original message sent to Permaculture WA 
> <perma@eepo.com.au> was also sent here, so I am sending the original
> to fill in the gaps for those not on perma@eepo.com.au.
> 
> Rgards, Keith
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi to all!
> 
> A couple of weekends ago I attended the South Coast Field day at
> Candelo, NSW. It was refreshing to go to an Ag Show and not have
> to walk around $1 million combine harvesters or be bombarded with
> the latest agro-chemical free samples and trees-worth of glossy
> hype, although I did accept a sample bag of seaweed compost :-)
> 
> However, for me the highlights of the weekend were the lectures
> given by David Holmgren who spoke on 'Farm Forestry and Regrowth'
> on the Saturday, and 'A Permaculture Approach to Weeds' on the
> Sunday. It was the first time I had heard David speak, and was
> very impressed at both his professionalism, presentation skills, 
> and content. His talks were interesting and always tinged with
> a hint of anarchism (particularly regarding his definition of
> weeds, which made some Landcare adherents shift uneasily a couple
> of times!) Pat Coleby also spoke on 'Natural Animal Care and Farming'
> - although I did not catch Pat's lecture. Having read much of her
> material, I'm sure it was another fascinating hour.
> 
> The third speaker for the weekend (which is really the reason for
> this post) was Greg Bender, a research biologist who spoke on 
> 'The Role of Legumes Working for Us'. Greg showed how the fixation
> of nitrogen by legumes is not an automatic process simply because
> the plant is growing. Two major factors which determine the quantity
> of atmospheric nitrogen fixed are the level of nutrients in the soil
> and the availability of the correct mycorrhizal bacteria.
> 
> If the soil is already rich in nutrients (particularly nitrogen)
> then the legume will simply grow like a normal plant using the 
> elements from the soil, and very little atmospheric nitrogen will
> be fixed. The nitrogen nodules may still grow on the roots, but
> they will not be functioning (Greg showed how to test a nodule
> to see if atmospheric fixing was taking place). In other words,
> it is the poorest soils which will fire legumes into fixing the
> most atmospheric nitrogen.
> 
> However, no nitrogen will be fixed at all if the correct 
> mycorrhizal bacteria is missing, as it is the symbiotic 
> relationship between the plant and the bacteria which fixes
> the nitrogen - the plant cannot do it on its own. Most native
> legumes are able to find the appropriate mycorrhiza in our soils,
> but introduced species may have a hard time finding the one they
> need. This is why legume crops are now inoculated with a species-
> specific mycorrhiza (this is the area Greg now works in - 
> identifying and manufacturing the specific mycorrhiza for farm
> legume crops).
> 
> And so, finally, to the questions :-)
> 
> 1. Are the non-native species of legumes that we use in
> permaculture actually fixing much nitrogen, seeing very few of
> us would be inoculating our seeds?
> 
> 2. At what point does the nitrogen fixed into nodules become
> available? Do we have to wait for the plant to die? or are nodules
> 'sloughed off' during the life of the plant?
> 
> 3. Is there much point in planting legumes in rich soil 
> specifically for nitrogen fixing purposes?
> 
> Hope someone can give some light on this. I am just establishing
> a small permaculture demonstration orchard, and need to think about
> what to grow underneath the trees. Traditional permaculture lore has 
> it that a mixture of perennial low-growing legumes is the way to go
> (pigeon pea, etc), but I now think that ground cover acacias may 
> be a better bet. Any thoughts?
> 
> Regards, and thanks for your patience.
> 
> Keith
> 
>  =====================
>   Keith Elwell-Gavins
>     Queanbeyan, NSW
>       Australia
>  =====================
> 
> 

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Date: 	Mon, 1 Sep 1997 11:06:42 +1000
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From: "April Sampson-Kelly" <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: understory to hardy nuts?
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Beware of sheep - they can and will compact the soil, and as they 
are decended for an animal like a goat - don't turn your back on them.
chickens are fine for mature trees but they too, can be destructive when
they
have a mind too, why not use geese as a cover crop! You can sell the eggs
or meat or feathers and they will convert existing greens into fertilizer,
contribute to the wetness of the soil with their wet padding.  Ducks are 
ideal but eat less grasses.  They only need a small amount of water
not a huge outlay.  This keeps the soil covered with a low binding of weeds
and grasses and enables you to harvest easily,  I would consider putting in
some
small hedges that aid harvest by directing nuts down hill (not planted
across the contour 
as this may trap the nuts.)  Then you can trap the nuts where you want
them.

I have just returned from a long holiday in Shetland Ireland and UK. After
Shetland I am
afraid I agree with my WA friends that sheep should be called paddock lice.
 I love trees
and like them to have a fair chance.
April 

April Sampson-Kelly
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make this world a better place


----------
> From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
> To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
> Subject: understory to hardy nuts?
> Date: Friday, August 29, 1997 7:07 PM
> 
> We have a planting project called the Theatre of Plant.  7 acres of
> former pasture on the dark side of a creek valley.  Zone 4 Wisconsin. 
> My overstory planting is all manner of nut that will grow in WI.  Im
> interested in entertaining suggestion of possible understory plants for
> the buartnut, butternut, walnut plantings & for the chestnut plantings. 
> I have a pretty good idea but would really like to get some surprise
> suggestions.
> 
> Also most of the trees are 2-3 years old & are just now starting to take
> off, especially since the actual way that trees get established here in
> the cold north is they die back to the ground for 2-3 years & then after
> that start to take off.  Any way my further question is does it make
> sense to start putting understory plants in at this early stage.  I know
> the obvious answer would be cover crops but we have neither the money or
> did I want to do anymore tilling on this land that has lain fallow for
> 20 years.
> 
> Miekal And
> 
> I second the notion that the juicy response to cover crop resources was
> quite entertaining as a one time intervention.  Gave me a good laugh
> anyway.
> 
> 
> -- 
> @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#
> Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime
> QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website:
> http://net22.com/qazingulaza
> e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  1 18:31:18 1997
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From: Jack Rowe <jackrowe@compuserve.com>
To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Geese/chickens/sheep
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Re: geese as orchard animals... Chickens are great for intermittent
cleaning chores, but tear up the ground quickly with permanent access.
Ditto pigs. I second April's suggestion about the geese (I usually like her
thoughtful comments)... they may be a little ornery, but I've found (as
with most all outwardly-ornery animals, human or otherwise) if one doesn't
show intimidation then they respect that and quit the theatrics. 

An interesting story about observation (as in "looked with my brain instead
of my eyes": the geese were getting into my garden of bean and cowpea
seedlings, important heirloom seed samples, so I chased them out several
times, with much theatrics of my own. Finally occurred to me to JUST LOOK
at what they were doing... geese are grazers, they were going along the
rows and carefully eating the grass (that I'd have had to come along and
pull by hand, which for some reason seems to offend fire ants mightily).
They weren't even TOUCHING my bean and cowpea seedlings. After that I left
the geese alone, but they didn't let me forget what a rude host I'd been,
sulking and waddling away whenever I got near.

Speaking of thinking vis-a-vis looking, Huang Po said: "The foolish believe
what they think and reject what they see [or maybe forget to even look? -
JR]; the wise reject what they think and believe what they see". I think I
see what you're thinking...

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Mon Sep  1 18:40:35 1997
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Re: geese as orchard animals... Chickens are great for intermittent
cleaning chores, but tear up the ground quickly with permanent access.
Ditto pigs. I second April's suggestion about the geese (I usually like her
thoughtful comments)... they may be a little ornery, but I've found (as
with most all outwardly-ornery animals, human or otherwise) if one doesn't
show intimidation then they respect that and quit the theatrics. 

An interesting story about observation (as in "looked with my brain instead
of my eyes": the geese were getting into my garden of bean and cowpea
seedlings, important heirloom seed samples, so I chased them out several
times, with much theatrics of my own. Finally occurred to me to JUST LOOK
at what they were doing... geese are grazers, they were going along the
rows and carefully eating the grass (that I'd have had to come along and
pull by hand, which for some reason seems to offend fire ants mightily).
They weren't even TOUCHING my bean and cowpea seedlings. After that I left
the geese alone, but they didn't let me forget what a rude host I'd been,
sulking and waddling away whenever I got near.

Speaking of thinking vis-a-vis looking, Huang Po said: "The foolish believe
what they think and reject what they see [or maybe forget to even look? -
JR]; the wise reject what they think and believe what they see". I think I
see what you're thinking...

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  2 01:05:17 1997
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From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: HOAX! Re: Virus alert -Forwarded
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At 07:32 AM 8/30/97 -0600, Simon Henderson wrote:
>
>
>>>>Subject: Virus alert
>>>>Mime-Version: 1.0
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>>>>Content-Disposition: inline
>>>>
>>>>Note:
>>>>
>>>>WARNING!!!!!! If you receive an e-mail titled "JOIN THE  CREW" DO NOT
>>>>open it!
(...)

This is a hoax of the same genre as the "Good Times virus".

Please don't spread it any further.  The message is, essentially, the virus,
as it self-replicates every time someone forwards it on.

There are several good sites on the Web which report Internet hoaxes,
including the virus hoaxes.  I'm at my home computer, so I don't have the
URL's for you right now, but a search on Yahoo might turn them up.

Loren
Loren Davidson
loren@wombat.net    http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
"Love is a verb."  -- Steven Covey

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Sep  2 08:43:42 1997
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To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org,
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Subject: Re: Geese/chickens/sheep
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Jack has another nice post.  And again I will add a few points.

1)  The issue of chickens vs geese vs some other pasture animal is stocking
density.  For typical breeds and conditions, a stocking density of 70 birds
per acre is as high as you want to go (if the chickens are in the ordhard all
the time.  We have a routine where we let chickens out of their regular
forage for the last few hours of daylight and they clean up bugs, get grass
seeds, etc.)  Geese are not overstocked because they require grass so will
starve before the grass all dies out.  However they don't eat insects and
they dont scratch.  Ducks are easier on mulch.

On the other hand, chickens are great a defoliating an area if mob stocked.
 Again I'd not keep them in an overstocked area all the time but let them
into fresh vegetation a few hours a day to scoop up whatever they aren't
getting otherwise.) They know to do this.  For example, if you wanted to set
up a Fukuoka system between your trees, and I can't imagine why anyone would
not want to, clearing the land with chickens can be a first step.  They
broadcast buckwheat, disc lightly or, better if you have it, scatter a light
mulch of grass-like materials, and let it rip.  

Ducks are more useful than geese at pest control as geese tend very strongly
to vegetarian diets.  If you have established mulch, ducks work it with their
probing bills rather than scratching, which is inconvenient with webbed feet.
 Chickens can also be used on established mulch by throwing brush or tree
tops around the feeder roots of your trees.  You don't really care if they
scratch elsewhere as they just move the mulch around.  Some breeds, such as
Araucanas  (i think I spelled that wrong--ones that lay colored eggs, blue,
green, etc.) are harder to discourage than others, but even so the damage
doesn't appear to harm the plants.

On observation, there was a time a few years back when I had chickens getting
into the garden.  We had mulched paths and densely planted beds.  They
scratched in the paths and only reached into the beds for the odd bug.
 However I shooed them back as I know that they can change behavior quickly.
 I have two stories about that, one involving geese and another ducks (I'm a
slow learner) I'll save for another time.  

I do want to add that geese will destroy your seedling trees.  They will go
along nicely mowing between the trees and converting the grass to tree
fertlizer and then one day they go bonkers and chew all the bark (if chew can
be the right word here) all around each one.  This is not a gradual thing.
 It is like somebody threw a switch that makes them attack trees.  This can
be expensive weeding.  

Geese are smart and remember well and will get any food you think that they
are too dumb to figure out, like corn ears on stalks too high for them to
reach. That's the story I'm not telling you.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence
courses via email.  Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available.
Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA
 YankeePerm@aol.com  

If it's not in our food chain, we aren't thinking.

In a message dated 9/2/97 1:49:17 AM, jackrowe@compuserve.com (Jack Rowe)
wrote:

>Re: geese as orchard animals... Chickens are great for intermittent
>cleaning chores, but tear up the ground quickly with permanent access.
>Ditto pigs. I second April's suggestion about the geese (I usually like her
>thoughtful comments)... they may be a little ornery, but I've found (as
>with most all outwardly-ornery animals, human or otherwise) if one doesn't
>show intimidation then they respect that and quit the theatrics. 
>
>An interesting story about observation (as in "looked with my brain instead
>of my eyes": the geese were getting into my garden of bean and cowpea
>seedlings, important heirloom seed samples, so I chased them out several
>times, with much theatrics of my own. Finally occurred to me to JUST LOOK
>at what they were doing... geese are grazers, they were going along the
>rows and carefully eating the grass (that I'd have had to come along and
>pull by hand, which for some reason seems to offend fire ants mightily).
>They weren't even TOUCHING my bean and cowpea seedlings. After that I left
>the geese alone, but they didn't let me forget what a rude host I'd been,
>sulking and waddling away whenever I got near.
>
>Speaking of thinking vis-a-vis looking, Huang Po said: "The foolish believe
>what they think and reject what they see [or maybe forget to even look? -
>JR]; the wise reject what they think and believe what they see". I think I
>see what you're thinking...

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  2 09:35:44 1997
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Date: 	Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:39:47 -0500
Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
From: rizvanov@griffon.mwsc.edu (Felix F. Rizvanov)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Geese/chickens/sheep
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Please advise me how to unsubscribe from this list

Felix


Felix F. Rizvanov,  Ph. D.
==================================
Instructional Designer,  IMC, LRC-145               N
Missouri Western State College                            O
4525 Downs Drive, St. Joseph, MO 64507          O
Phone: 816-271-4297;    Fax: 816-271- 4295       S
E-mail: rizvanov@griffon.mwsc.edu                    P
+    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +    +     +     H
"Even the crippled one limping by the right road   E
surpasses the horseman galloping in a wrong       R
 direction "   - Francis Bacon  and me                    E
===================================
 GLOBAL   +   KNOWLEDGE   +  COMMUNITY




From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  2 16:46:17 1997
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From: lizacker@vt.edu (Elizabeth Ackermann)
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Calls for Proposals
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Greetings all!

Just getting into permaculture and enjoying this list very much.
Educational _and_ entertaining ;-)


Got a notice of these research funding opportunities during the course of
my 9-5 job. Thought some of you might be interested.

Please note that each of these Calls for Proposals have different criteria
and areas of interest, as well as geographic limitations.

****************************************************************
(from:
http://carousel.lis.uiuc.edu/~iris/iris.htm?sp={Research%20and%20Education%2
0Projects}&fmt=F )

Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) is a USDA
competitive grants program supporting profitable, environmentally sound,
socially acceptable agricultural systems.

North Central Region Sustainable Agriculture Rsrch & Ed Prog (SARE)
 Research and Education Projects
The 1998 Priority areas include: emerging issues or topics relevant to
advancing the sustainability of agriculture ; integration and
diversification of farming systems; sustainable livestock systems;
networking to promote collaboration that will advance the future of
agriculture in a more sustainable way; and environmentally sound management
practices.
DEADLINES ANNOUNCED:          09/12/97
Web Site: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/ncrsare/


North Central Region Sustainable Agriculture Rsrch & Ed Prog (SARE)
 Research and Education Projects
  Innovative Marketing Strategies
The North Central Region SARE program is requesting proposals for research
and education activities that address issues of developing and maintaining
marketing infrastructure for sustainable products of current and potential
importance to the region and nation. This is a new, targeted regional
initiative to acknowledge the importance of building marketing capacity
skills for sustainable agriculture producers and the education of consumers
on the benefits of purchasing sustainable agriculture products.
DEADLINES ANNOUNCED:          01/23/98
Web Site: http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/ncrsare/


Calls for Proposals were also made in these areas:

Southern Region Sustainable Agriculture Resrch and Educ Prog (SARE)
 Research and Education Projects
The Southern Region USDA Program on SARE is requesting preproposals for
research and education
activities that address issues of sustainable agriculture of current and
potential importance to the region and nation. The objective  is to enable
the full spectrum of farmers and ranchers to move profitably toward
production systems compatible with the concept of sustainable agriculture
 DEADLINES ANNOUNCED:          08/22/97
Web Site: http://www.griffin.peachnet.edu/sare/


Western Region Sustainable Agriculture Research and Educ Prog (SARE)
 Research and Education Projects
 The SARE Program's purpose is to encourage research and education to
increase knowledge concerning integrated systems of plant and animal
producation practices having a site specific application that will, over
the long-term: satisfy human food and fiber needs; enhance environmental
quality and the natural resource base upon which the agriculture economy
depends; make the most
efficient use of nonrenewable resources and on-farm resources and
integrate, where appropriate, natural biological cycles and controls;
sustain the economic viability of farm operations; and enhance the quality
of life for farmers and society as a whole.
DEADLINES ANNOUNCED:          10/29/97
http://ext.usu.edu/wsare/

******************************************************
Good luck!

Liz

*******************************************************************
Liz Ackermann
Program Support Technician (WebWeaver)
Program Development Office, Research and Graduate Studies
Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
lizacker@vt.edu         Phone: (540) 231-2455

 


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Sep  3 23:06:17 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 14:26:06 WST
From: Victor Guest <vic@daena.eepo.com.au>
Reply-To: victor.guest@eepo.com.au
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture 1996 conference proceedings

The proceedings Table of Contents is found at the following address
and is an excellent place to start. WOW.
http://www.cowan.edu.au/~paustin/ipc6/toc.html
Regards,
          Vic
--
Victor Guest   V.G.Guest                       Perth, Western Australia
victor.guest@eepo.com.au                  11 Carew Place Greenwood 6024 
                ----: Sustainable Agriculture :----   Tel. (09) 2464674
--: The Land Management Society & The Permaculture Association:---
           --:http://www.eepo.com.au/permacul.html:--
                 -----: Men Of The Trees :------
           ------: Revaluation Co-Counseling :------
                -----: AAEE  and Greenteach :-----
                 http://www.eepo.com.au/~victor/

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Sep  5 04:43:36 1997
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Lawrence sorry to bother you, do you know the current address for 
Friends of the Trees?
April

----------
> 

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Sep  5 23:12:02 1997
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----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
InterGarden - Venaura Farm
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
----------------------------------

On Fri, 5 Sep 1997, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> Lawrence sorry to bother you, do you know the current address for 
> Friends of the Trees?

This is the URL (validated) for their new page:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4663/


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Fri Sep  5 23:51:32 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE
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The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu
or to access a specific newsgroup:
http://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

----------------------------------
Lawrence F. London, Jr.
InterGarden - Venaura Farm
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
----------------------------------

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Sep  6 13:22:16 1997
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From: "Permaculture West" <permawest@olywa.net>
To: <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Friends of the Trees address
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	I'm not Lawrence but I know Michael Pilarski personally.  The address for
Friends of the Tress is:
	P.O. Box 4469
	Bellingham, WA 98227
	Ph: (360) 738-4972
	Fx: (360) 671-9668

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sat Sep  6 16:54:34 1997
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Date: 	Sat, 06 Sep 1997 15:52:29 +0100
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From: Miekal And <dtv@mwt.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970905232803.22192E-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
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Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:
> 
> The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
> unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
> newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
> 
> They are:
> 
> permaculture.design
> permaculture.systems
> permaculture.links
> permaculture.information
> permaculture.events
> permaculture.discussion
> permaculture.news
> 
> To access them point your news browser to:
> news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
> 
> Or point your web browser to this URL:
> http://news.sunsite.unc.edu
> or to access a specific newsgroup:
> http://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

Have not been able to access the newsgroups.

Miekal

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Sep  7 09:43:45 1997
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From: Andrew Erb <erba@lincolnu.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: irradiated food
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Is it true that irradiating food kills the enzymes which help us digest 
and get nutrients out of food?  Seems like a good reason to grow our own 
or buy food that has not been irradiated.   Is irradiation used on 
vegtables and fruits?  Does overcooking food do the same thing? As I 
understand it lightly cooking vegtables makes nutrients more absorbable.  
Any comments would be appreciated?

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Sep  7 10:24:37 1997
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From: Andrew Erb <erba@lincolnu.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Low cost community gardening
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Great Advise (keeping the school/community garden project low cost),
thanks Arpil!  I had it set in my mind that I wanted to 
build raised beds, and still may in the future, the first site is at my 
childrens elementary school and is on a hill side with a moderate slope.  
	
I work as a secretary for a gerontologist and we just recently held a 
conference on Minority Aging here in Missouri.  Our keynote speaker 
talked about the desciple (I forget which one) who walked on water and 
used this as an analogy "you have to get out of the boat" (stay focused 
on I suppose God if you believe and/or your goal) to really help 
the needy, he was speaking to social workers and health care givers, 
telling them to ignore inhumane rules, like not touching the people they 
care for etc.  I met many caring people at our conference and am Inspired 
to try harder to get community gardening going.

Talking with another one of the conference workshop presenters who works in 
Washington DC on public housing gave me a good idea on raising money for 
the garden project(s) (I hope to expand to more sites in the future).  
He started taking flats of annual flowers around to the people who live 
in public housing and before he knew it people were lining up to buy 
flats, and people started calling him to preorder flats.  I'm going to 
try this, but will also keep in mind that I won't need whole lot of money 
since the gardens will be community gardens.  He also talked about 
sharing ideas and techniques, his very positive attitude was refreshing.  
We can accomplish more if we share this kind of wonderful knowledge and 
positive attitude with others, who knows, maybe in a couple of years 
permaculture will be mainstream :}


On Wed, 3 Sep 1997, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> Guess this won't give you much Joy,  but  in my little experience
> people are fascinated with what can be achieved WITH NO funding.
> I have found that people will copy your example because you
> don't have special access to funds,
> They are pleased to see it will not cost them much to do the same.
> We collect seed from our foods we buy, we collect compost
> and mulch materials from paper and lawn clippings that we and 
> are neighbors normally discard.
> Make this part of the project and it will grow in many unforeseen 
> and uncontrolled areas.
> Funding has to answer to the funder!! Your project will have to answer
> to no-one but those it aims to serve.
> April
> 
> ----------
> > From: Andrew Erb <erba@lincolnu.edu>
> > To: permaculture@listserv.sunsite.unc.edu
> > Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org
> > Subject: permaculture in Missouri
> > Date: Saturday, August 30, 1997 9:46 PM
> > 
> > 
> > Does anyone know of any permaculture activities in the Mid-Missouri area?
> > 
> > I am currently trying to get a little money donated to start a 
> > 
> > school/community organic garden and outdoor classroom project going.
> > 
> > 	
> > 	Andrew Erb  erba@lincolnu.edu   
> 




From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Sep  7 22:45:12 1997
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From: Craig Lanoye <lanoye@together.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: irradiated food
References: <Pine.3.89.9709070856.A2769-0100000@lincolnu.edu>
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I understand that irradiated foods are not only lacking enzymes
but also may contain cancer causing by-products of the process.
I also have read that temps of over 118F destroy all enzyme activity.
Seems to me that the more our diets consist of raw, organic, mineral
rich foods the healthier we will be. Lots of books out now on such
topics.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Sun Sep  7 23:54:01 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture newsgroups at sunSITE (correct URLs) 
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sorry for the typos - correct URLs are below:
---------------------------------------------

The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
 
They are:

permaculture.design
permaculture.systems
permaculture.links
permaculture.information
permaculture.events
permaculture.discussion
permaculture.news

To access them point your news browser to:
news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups

Or point your web browser to this URL:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
- or to access a specific newsgroup:
news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems

Or read them at http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html

In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.

------------------------------------------------------------------
 Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Dragonfly Market Gardens
 mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
 http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
------------------------------------------------------------------





From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 00:24:31 1997
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From: mray01 <mray01@ccsf.cc.ca.us>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Sunsite->Works for me.....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970907234553.21490B-100000@titan.oit.unc.edu>
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I dont know what you changed but the old email worked fine for me. I can
get all 7 sunsite newsgroups...

On Sun, 7 Sep 1997, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> 
> sorry for the typos - correct URLs are below:
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
> The free, public access news server at sunSITE has added 7 new,
> unmoderated permaculture newsgroups for our use. All posts to these
> newsgroups will be retained in a permanent archive.
>  
> They are:
> 
> permaculture.design
> permaculture.systems
> permaculture.links
> permaculture.information
> permaculture.events
> permaculture.discussion
> permaculture.news
> 
> To access them point your news browser to:
> news.sunsite.unc.edu and get the list of available newsgroups
> 
> Or point your web browser to this URL:
> news://news.sunsite.unc.edu
> - or to access a specific newsgroup:
> news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.systems
> 
> Or read them at http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
> 
> In the near future I hope to be able to offer gatewaying (bi-directional
> linking) of this mailing list to a companion newsgroup. This newsgroup will 
> become a permanent archive of posts to permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Dragonfly Market Gardens
>  mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
>  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
>  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

--
Mike Ray		
Associated Students    City College of San Francisco  	   415-239-3108
Student Union-205     50 Phelan Drive   San Francisco, California 94112 


From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 01:06:48 1997
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From: "john valenzuela" <johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture Design Course on Moloka'i, Hawai'i
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  PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE on the ISLAND of MOLOKA'I, HAWAI'I

Dates: November 29 to December 12, 1997.

Location: Hui Ho'olana, a 77 acre retreat center on Moloka'i, Hawai'i. 
This island was the first place Bill Mollison ever visited in the US.
It is a very rural island with many native hawaiians on homestead land, 
extensive ancient hawaiian fish ponds, and permaculture sites.

Description: The main purpose of the course is to impart permaculture 
principles and methodologies which can be applied anywhere in the world. 
This design course will cover the standard two week cerificate 
Permaculture Design Course curriculum. Through lecture, discussion, 
slide shows, observation, field trips, and hands-on experiential 
learning, permaculture design students will develop the practical skills 
and knowledge to design and implement sustainable systems in harmony 
with the natural world. There will be an emphasis on designing 
permaculture and agroforesty systems adapted to Hawai'i and other 
subtropical/tropical oceanic islands. This will range in scale from 
urban, backyard and small acreage to village and whole island design.

Instructors: Michael Pilarski has taught permaculture in the USA, 
Canada, Belize, Nepal, and Australia, and teaches herbal wildcrafting. 
He is the founder of Friends of the Trees in Washington state. Douglas 
Bullock is a horticulturalist with wide experience in Washington state, 
California, New Zealand, Australia, and Hawai'i. Bruce Hill was raised 
in Argentina and lived in other Latin American countries. He manages the 
Kanahena Farm Nursery in Maui. John Valenzuela is an educator and 
horticulturalist based on the Big Island of Hawai'i. He also has wide 
experience in California, from urban gardening to forestry. The 
instructors are avid and knowledgeable plantsmen with international 
experience.

Cost: US$950 including two weeks lodging, meals, and materials. Campers 
pay a reduced fee. Some partial scholarships are available
The course is limited to 25 participants.

Contact: Hu'i Ho'olana
         PO Box 99
         Kualapu'u, Hawai'i 96757 
         Tel. and Fax:(808)567-6430

     or: Friends of the Trees Society
         PO Box 4469 
         Bellingham, Washington 98227 
         Tel:(360)738-4972 Fax:(360)671-9668
         URL: www.geocities.com/rainforest/4663   


PS: Please send me any e-mail addresses or URLs that this event should 
be listed at. MAHALO

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 02:05:16 1997
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Date: 	Mon, 8 Sep 1997 13:00:48 -0500
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From: "juan  vargas" <ecotek@col-online.com>
To: <permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: irradiated food
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I´m new on the list and I don´t know much about permaculture, so I´ll
appreciate if anyone can breafky explain me what IRRADIATING FOOD is.

thank you,
		juan

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 06:06:21 1997
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From: "john valenzuela" <johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com>
To: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
Subject: Re: food irradiation
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I don't see that food irradiation fits into permaculture. 

I'm not an expert, but it is my understanding that food irradiation is a 
post harvest process that takes fresh produce and exposes it to gamma 
radiation at levels of about 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray.
This destroys bacteria and other life, allowing the produce to take 
weeks to rot (in the case of strawberries for example)  This is ideal 
for the long distance shipment of produce, the basis of large scale 
export, which displaces fresh, yet more perishable local produce. 

This process disrupts local economies, taints the food with unknown 
toxins, and perpetuates the validation of the toxic legacy of the 
nuclear industry- from the uranium mines, and thier toxic tailings, 
weapons of mutually assured destruction, and power plants that will be 
deadly radioactive for many thousands of years. This transportation and 
use of low level radioactive elements already exists in hospitals for 
sterilization of medical supplies.  It is not widely known that most all 
spices that are imported into the United States have been irradiated.  

There is a group called 'Food and Water' based in Vermont whose grass 
roots efforts are to stop food radiation. They have extensive 
information on the issue. Unfortunately I don't have their contact info. 

For an article about our experience with the issues surrounding t 
proposed food irradiation facility here in Hawai'i, go to: 

//planet-hawaii.com/kau-landing  

click on 'read from past issues' and go to the Jun '97 issue were you 
can read: 'The Economics of Irradiation: Boon or Boondoggle?'

I prefer to enjoy food grown near where I live, support local economies, 
and work toward a nuclear-free world.

with aloha 'aina
-John

John Valenzuela Permaculture Services 
PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
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From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 22:28:22 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: GD Rose <gdrose@cousteau.uwaterloo.ca>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Permaculture

Dear Dwayne Jones-Evans,

Are you with La Trobe University?  Where is that anyway and what are you 
doing in terms of Permaculture.  I am doing PhD research at the 
university of Waterloo in Ontario, Canada and am heavy into the precepts 
of PC.  Lets talk and I will have an URL for you in the future regarding 
my research.  I am trying to make the link between wastewater treatment 
facilites and alternative technologies and low input alternatives such as 
PC.  I think // know it can work.

Sincerely,
Gregory D. Rose
<gdrose@fes.uwaterloo.ca>

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Mon Sep  8 22:30:02 1997
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Jordanian Permaculture Project (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 22:07:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: GD Rose <gdrose@cousteau.uwaterloo.ca>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Jordanian Permaculture Project

Browsing the PC web pages tonight and found this:

"hope it helps.  incidentally i am working with a permaculture development
project in the middle east.   we are currently looking for a web site to
place our pages. any ideas?"

Was it you who sent it.  I am at the University of Waterloo doing a PhD 
in Environmental Planning and am heavily interested in bringing 
Permaculture into the main stream as a new discipline.  If you have a 
site in the middle east I would certainly like to hear about it because I 
am working with CIDA on a wastewater treatment facility in the Jordan 
Valley which has huge promise for PC - it's called the Maysara Project 
and I would very much enjoy to talk to you about this.

Please respond if you know anything about this PC site mentioned in the 
abover quotation marks.

Gregory D. Rose 
U of Waterloo, Ontario Canada
<gdrose@fes.uwaterloo.ca>   

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  9 14:43:46 1997
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From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
To: UNC Perm List <permaculture@listserv.unc.edu>,
        Envirolink Perm List <permaculture@envirolink.org>
Subject: Resource:  Weather patterns & El Nino
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First, apologies for those who are subbed to both Pc lists & get this twice.

I just found a wonderful document yesterday on the Web, which describes
several of the major climatic oscillations that determine weather patterns
over North America, including the El Nino/La Nina, the Quasi-Biennial
Oscillation (upper atmosphere winds), and solar cycles.  For those of us
seeking to understand the patterns of our weather and climate and hoping to
plan longer-term, I think it makes an excellent read:

http://www.intellicast.com/drdew/library/superel.html - the base document

http://www.intellicast.com - Intellicast weather service, which has, among
other things, satellite and radar maps updated hourly.  If you go in this
way, look for links to Dr. Dewpoint and/or El Nino.

This one, to me, is a keeper.

Loren
--
Loren Davidson      
loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
Support organic farming - give peas a chance

From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org  Tue Sep  9 14:48:34 1997
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First, apologies for those who are subbed to both Pc lists & get this twice.

I just found a wonderful document yesterday on the Web, which describes
several of the major climatic oscillations that determine weather patterns
over North America, including the El Nino/La Nina, the Quasi-Biennial
Oscillation (upper atmosphere winds), and solar cycles.  For those of us
seeking to understand the patterns of our weather and climate and hoping to
plan longer-term, I think it makes an excellent read:

http://www.intellicast.com/drdew/library/superel.html - the base document

http://www.intellicast.com - Intellicast weather service, which has, among
other things, satellite and radar maps updated hourly.  If you go in this
way, look for links to Dr. Dewpoint and/or El Nino.

This one, to me, is a keeper.

Loren
--
Loren Davidson      
loren@wombat.net         http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
Support organic farming - give peas a chance

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  9 16:44:45 1997
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Date: 	Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:37:50 -0500
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From: Tom Berthold <berthold@radiks.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Cc: permaculture@listserv.unc.edu
Subject: Re: food irradiation
References: <19970908095949.3898.qmail@hotmail.com>
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I'm all for eating raw, uncooked foods for getting optimum nutrition,
but irradiation probably has fewer negative effects on the nutritional
quality of foods than any other form of cooking or preservation.  Any
health concerns about food irradiation are far outweighed by the
benefits received from elliminating pathogenic bacteria.  I don't have
specific information on the effect of irradiation on enzymes but I would
assume it is less than from actually cooking the food, which pretty much
destroys them all.  Eat fresh fruits and vegetables when you can but
don't be afraid of irradiation.   

According to the American Diabetic Association:

"Because irradiation does not substantially raise the temperature of the
food being processed, nutrient losses are small and are often
substantially less than nutrient losses associated with other methods of
preservation, such as canning, drying, and heat pasteurization and
sterilization.  Proteins, fats, and carbohydrate are not notably altered
by irradiation.  In general, those nutrients most sensitive to heat
treatment, such as the B vitamins and ascorbic acid, are those most
sensitive to irradiation.

"Irradiation does cause changes in food, all of which have been found to
be benign. More than 40 years of multispecies, multigenerational animal
studies have shown no toxic effects from eating irradiated foods.
Additionally, human volunteers consuming up to 100% of their diets as
irradiated food have shown no ill effect. Irradiation produces so little
chemical change in food that it is difficult to design a test to
determine whether a food has been irradiated.  
 
"A small number of new compounds are formed when food is irradiated,
just as new compounds are formed when food is exposed to heat. Early
research described these new compounds as "unique radiolytic products"
because they were identified after food was irradiated. Subsequent
investigations have determined that free radicals and other compounds
produced during irradiation are identical to those formed during
cooking, steaming, roasting, pasteurization, freezing, and other forms
of food preparation. Free radicals are even produced during the natural
ripening of fruits and vegetables. All reliable scientific evidence,
based on animal feeding tests and consumption by human volunteers,
indicates that these products pose no unique risk to human beings. In
fact, people requiring the safest food, hospital patients receiving bone
marrow transplants, are routinely given irradiated foods. Furthermore,
because spices, being of tropical origin, are often microbe laden,
irradiated spices are preferred for routine use in hospital foodservice
for patients. Thus, as with pasteurization, the evidence suggests that
food irradiation can make a quality food supply better."


john valenzuela wrote:
> 
> I don't see that food irradiation fits into permaculture.
> 
> I'm not an expert, but it is my understanding that food irradiation is a
> post harvest process that takes fresh produce and exposes it to gamma
> radiation at levels of about 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray.
> This destroys bacteria and other life, allowing the produce to take
> weeks to rot (in the case of strawberries for example)  This is ideal
> for the long distance shipment of produce, the basis of large scale
> export, which displaces fresh, yet more perishable local produce.
> 
> This process disrupts local economies, taints the food with unknown
> toxins, and perpetuates the validation of the toxic legacy of the
> nuclear industry- from the uranium mines, and thier toxic tailings,
> weapons of mutually assured destruction, and power plants that will be
> deadly radioactive for many thousands of years. This transportation and
> use of low level radioactive elements already exists in hospitals for
> sterilization of medical supplies.  It is not widely known that most all
> spices that are imported into the United States have been irradiated.
> 
> There is a group called 'Food and Water' based in Vermont whose grass
> roots efforts are to stop food radiation. They have extensive
> information on the issue. Unfortunately I don't have their contact info.
> 
> For an article about our experience with the issues surrounding t
> proposed food irradiation facility here in Hawai'i, go to:
> 
> //planet-hawaii.com/kau-landing
> 
> click on 'read from past issues' and go to the Jun '97 issue were you
> can read: 'The Economics of Irradiation: Boon or Boondoggle?'
> 
> I prefer to enjoy food grown near where I live, support local economies,
> and work toward a nuclear-free world.
> 
> with aloha 'aina
> -John
> 
> John Valenzuela Permaculture Services
> PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
> e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  9 20:58:42 1997
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From: Craig Lanoye <lanoye@together.net>
To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
Subject: Re: food irradiation
References: <19970908095949.3898.qmail@hotmail.com> <3415B39E.840@radiks.net>
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Tom Berthold wrote:
> 
> I'm all for eating raw, uncooked foods for getting optimum nutrition,
> but irradiation probably has fewer negative effects on the nutritional
> quality of foods than any other form of cooking or preservation.  Any
> health concerns about food irradiation are far outweighed by the
> benefits received from elliminating pathogenic bacteria.  I don't have
> specific information on the effect of irradiation on enzymes but I would
> assume it is less than from actually cooking the food, which pretty much
> destroys them all.  Eat fresh fruits and vegetables when you can but
> don't be afraid of irradiation.
> 
> According to the American Diabetic Association:
> 
> "Because irradiation does not substantially raise the temperature of the
> food being processed, nutrient losses are small and are often
> substantially less than nutrient losses associated with other methods of
> preservation, such as canning, drying, and heat pasteurization and
> sterilization.  Proteins, fats, and carbohydrate are not notably altered
> by irradiation.  In general, those nutrients most sensitive to heat
> treatment, such as the B vitamins and ascorbic acid, are those most
> sensitive to irradiation.
> 
> "Irradiation does cause changes in food, all of which have been found to
> be benign. More than 40 years of multispecies, multigenerational animal
> studies have shown no toxic effects from eating irradiated foods.
> Additionally, human volunteers consuming up to 100% of their diets as
> irradiated food have shown no ill effect. Irradiation produces so little
> chemical change in food that it is difficult to design a test to
> determine whether a food has been irradiated.
> 
> "A small number of new compounds are formed when food is irradiated,
> just as new compounds are formed when food is exposed to heat. Early
> research described these new compounds as "unique radiolytic products"
> because they were identified after food was irradiated. Subsequent
> investigations have determined that free radicals and other compounds
> produced during irradiation are identical to those formed during
> cooking, steaming, roasting, pasteurization, freezing, and other forms
> of food preparation. Free radicals are even produced during the natural
> ripening of fruits and vegetables. All reliable scientific evidence,
> based on animal feeding tests and consumption by human volunteers,
> indicates that these products pose no unique risk to human beings. In
> fact, people requiring the safest food, hospital patients receiving bone
> marrow transplants, are routinely given irradiated foods. Furthermore,
> because spices, being of tropical origin, are often microbe laden,
> irradiated spices are preferred for routine use in hospital foodservice
> for patients. Thus, as with pasteurization, the evidence suggests that
> food irradiation can make a quality food supply better."
> 
> john valenzuela wrote:
> >
> > I don't see that food irradiation fits into permaculture.
> >
> > I'm not an expert, but it is my understanding that food irradiation is a
> > post harvest process that takes fresh produce and exposes it to gamma
> > radiation at levels of about 1,000 times that of a chest X-ray.
> > This destroys bacteria and other life, allowing the produce to take
> > weeks to rot (in the case of strawberries for example)  This is ideal
> > for the long distance shipment of produce, the basis of large scale
> > export, which displaces fresh, yet more perishable local produce.
> >
> > This process disrupts local economies, taints the food with unknown
> > toxins, and perpetuates the validation of the toxic legacy of the
> > nuclear industry- from the uranium mines, and thier toxic tailings,
> > weapons of mutually assured destruction, and power plants that will be
> > deadly radioactive for many thousands of years. This transportation and
> > use of low level radioactive elements already exists in hospitals for
> > sterilization of medical supplies.  It is not widely known that most all
> > spices that are imported into the United States have been irradiated.
> >
> > There is a group called 'Food and Water' based in Vermont whose grass
> > roots efforts are to stop food radiation. They have extensive
> > information on the issue. Unfortunately I don't have their contact info.
> >
> > For an article about our experience with the issues surrounding t
> > proposed food irradiation facility here in Hawai'i, go to:
> >
> > //planet-hawaii.com/kau-landing
> >
> > click on 'read from past issues' and go to the Jun '97 issue were you
> > can read: 'The Economics of Irradiation: Boon or Boondoggle?'
> >
> > I prefer to enjoy food grown near where I live, support local economies,
> > and work toward a nuclear-free world.
> >
> > with aloha 'aina
> > -John
> >
> > John Valenzuela Permaculture Services
> > PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
> > e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.co


We can talk of the studies concerning food irradiation all day(ie:
who sponsered them and what may be the motive).  To me the issue is
labeling.  Tell me what it is and I'll decide if its food thank you.
Same goes for genetic "enhancement" of foods.  
Many people have lost faith in science that insults their common
sense and so may choose to avoid these new miracle foods on principle
alone.

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Tue Sep  9 22:40:18 1997
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:53:19 -0400
From: Ramon Jordan <rjordan@asrr.arsusda.gov>

Title:  U.S. National Arboretum
URL: <http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/Beltsville/na/index.html>
{{Web Contact person: Ramon Jordan;  e-mail: narj@ars-grin.gov}}

The U.S. National Arboretum is a U.S. Department of Agriculture 
research and education facility and a living museum. It is
dedicated to serving the public and improving our environment by
developing and promoting improved floral and landscape plants
and new technologies through scientific research, educational
programs, display gardens, and germplasm conservation.

The U.S. National Arboretum is located in northeast Washington, 
D.C., off New York Ave (Route 50) and Bladensburg Rd.  Parking 
is free.  Phone: 202-245-2726

************************************************
*   Ramon Jordan, Research Leader
*   Floral and Nursery Plants Research Unit
*   US National Arboretum, USDA-ARS
*   B010A, Room 244, BARC-West
*   10300 Baltimore Ave, Beltsville, MD   20705
*
*   TEL: 301/504-6570     FAX:  301/504-5096
*   e-mail:  rjordan@asrr.arsusda.gov
************************************************

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Sep 10 09:02:13 1997
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> john valenzuela wrote:
> > 
> > I don't see that food irradiation fits into permaculture.
> > 

[post harvest stuff snipped]

> > This process disrupts local economies, taints the food with unknown
> > toxins, and perpetuates the validation of the toxic legacy of the
> > nuclear industry- from the uranium mines, and thier toxic tailings,
> > weapons of mutually assured destruction, and power plants that will be
> > deadly radioactive for many thousands of years. This transportation and
> > use of low level radioactive elements already exists in hospitals for
> > sterilization of medical supplies.  It is not widely known that most all
> > spices that are imported into the United States have been irradiated.
> > 

[snip]

> > I prefer to enjoy food grown near where I live, support local economies,
> > and work toward a nuclear-free world.
> > 
> > with aloha 'aina
> > -John
> > 
> > John Valenzuela Permaculture Services
> > PO Box 1280 Pahoa, Hawai'i 96778
> > e-mail: johnvalenzuela@hotmail.com
> > 

Please don't confuse radiation with radioactivity.

It is my understanding that irradiation of food makes use of high 
voltages to create ionising radiation, much the same way as x-rays 
are produced. In both processes there is no involvement of 
radioactive materials and no radioactive by-products.

The nuclear industry may produce the power for food irradiation 
plants, but this may not be the case. You cannot involve the nuclear 
industry in a debate about a process that could be powered by wind 
or wave power.

Tim Reynolds
==================================================
Tim Reynolds

Motiv Systems Ltd
Orwell House, Cowley Road
Cambridge CB4 4WY
E-mail:t.reynolds@motiv.co.uk	
(http://www.motiv.co.uk)
(http://java.motiv.co.uk)	
				
Tel:+44 (0)1223 576318		
Fax:+44 (0)1223 576319		

From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu  Wed Sep 10 22:01:58 1997
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Date: 	Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:28:23 -0700
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From: "Permaculture West" <permawest@olywa.net>
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Subject: Greywater systems inquiry
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	I am currently collecting information on biological greywater systems
(those utilizing plants) for household use and wonder if anyone knows of a
good website that shows detailed schematics of simple systems as well as
potential species indexes.  I visited a student housing unit at Arcata
university in CA where they had designed an excellent system and later
found their homepage over the web; however I can no longer find them on the
internet.  Does anyone happen to know their address?

																	Thanks,
							Kirk Hanson
							permawest@olywa.net 

