From MAILER-DAEMON Sun Mar 7 20:49:05 1999 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 20:49:05 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0915235828 0000001995 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 07:10:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA22353 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA14117 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34092 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67323-6952>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:03:03 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout15.mx.aol.com (port 1641 [198.81.11.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67312-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:02:18 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA05732 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971008070430_-1060182807@emout15.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 07:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Applications X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 In a message dated 10/7/97 10:04:47 AM, you wrote: >Pardon me, in advance, > But could a poor educated peasant farmer like myself get an >answer to my "animal tractor on strip cropped" question or is this >not the appropriate forum? > What few of us farmers that are left here and as misguided as >I know we have been, are in the midst of continual battles risking >all that we have worked for for generations--weather, prices (cheap food policy) >, etc., and now corporate hog farms. That is why I'm asking a somewhat vague >and purposely dumb question about a better way of protein production >as a viable and healthy system and one which will better unite "green" >people. Don't get me wrong, I love intellectual discourse, but now I must >roll up my sleeves and put to the test what I've learned. > Gotta move..... > Mike Skinner Mike there are many versions of animal tractors. Some confine animals in the extreme and may not provide proper shade, etc. Others are more extensive and therefore slower. I personally have trouble with extremely concentrated animal populations in most contexts. (I've seen some mob-stocked strip grazing that was perfectly humane, however.) While people may take pains to attend to animal comfort, we all have lapses. My preference is for an arrangement of several areas in which animals can be roatated. I seem to recall that you question related to strip grazing on contour--correct me please if I recall wrong. I don't save most posts. I see no problem with this if the animals have access to reliable shade and water and are moved daily or so from strip to strip. You will get the benefits of contour strips and the benefits of strip grazing, which is a big bump in forage yields and a big drop in parasite problems. Beyond that, design considerations will be site specific. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 09:48:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24763 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23553 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 45777 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67393-6953>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:41:06 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout03.mx.aol.com (port 1577 [198.81.11.94]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <66841-6948>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:39:09 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA12479 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971008094057_1265822391@emout03.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Regardin the Activist letters, I think that the authors took an unfortunate route to express what some people to perceive to be a problem. I suggest that perhaps more harm than good will come of making this a topic of discussion on the internet. My personal approach with Bill, when I have had problems with his personal role as opposed to his written positions, has been to take the matter to him directly. In any case, we need a more secure arrangement, strictly for permaculture teachers, for this discussion in my opinion. I don't notice Bill participating in this forum, so how can we discuss what he does personally, except to gossip? Since we surely can't presume to require him to be on the list, I suggest that the people who are really affected--permaculture teachers and Bill--try to set up a more direct forum. There are actual public matters that no one has commented on, e.g. arbitrary creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, once again, is this the fourth for fifth time?, with no consultation of the permaculture community, meaning design course graduates. Do we want a national organization. Is the design consistent with permaculture? How do officers get selected? If we want one, what do we want it to do? (Here we get back to the point.) Should it not promote American permaculturists as any other professional organization does? Etc. From that discussion, we might also clarify some of the pros and cons of Bill's role as a teacher in North America and maybe, depending on how we define ourselves, Hawaii too. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From YankeePerm@aol.com Wed Oct 8 12:48:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00534 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:48:11 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from emout37.mail.aol.com (emout37.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.29]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17564 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout37.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA29231; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971008103453_827584519@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Re: reprise: guilds Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 In a message dated 10/7/97 5:43:06 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote: > >Dan: How do you define a "Standard Design"? Is this a "macro" approach >that would, in reality, utilize the development of "plant guilds" within >a permaculture design for a given area of land? Actually, this is Bill's concept and approach. As others have pointed out in this discussion, there are certain solutions that have a broader applicability than just one design. For example, in our special order list we have species lists, energy value tables for North American tree species, solutions to convection circulation that heat and cool homes in season, water cisterns that automatically reserve the first flush of water full of bird shit, etc., for irrigation, an "open siphon" design that can accept catchment water from different levels for point by point gravity irrigation on very porous soils, etc. We do not have species assemblies as such, though we have the raw materials to concoct them based on design need, compatibility, and sit e requirements. I can see a species assembly being useful where someone requires a specific species in a specific climate and wants to know what goes with it. For example, despite their serious need for high maintenance for must uses, apples are popular. What works with apples? Well we know that there are spontanious, virtually symbiotic associations of black raspberry? What else. Maybe there would be a package of species that would work, but I've never seen one. I'd fear that they would be more limiting than enabling. There are just too many factors. Biological solutions are generally far more complex and site specific than things like irrigation systems, convection loops, etc. I've seen apple associated in other places, again spontaneously, with (Eastern NA) blackberries, red raspberries, and black raspberries, all worked out nicely as to shade/sun/moisture factors. If I had a standard design for this, I'd want to know that a bonafide permaculture designer were using it as other site factors could be very different. I have seen in Spain (Catalonia) apples coming through the blackberries, just as Mollison describes. I don't recall seeing it elsewhere, but obviously it happens also in Australia. In some places, the brambles may suppress the trees. I keep getting toughts to go on with this, but that's my point. There is no substitution for experience. It takes an experienced person to properly interpret and apply the experiences of others. The requirement for instant, vs earned, gratification is a problem in our society, world wide now that TV has spread like cancer, and that is working against us. I think for this discussion we have to accept that there are people who want to skip the preparation time and learn as they go and others who feel that preparation is time well spent. That seems to be the only part of Larry's post that requires a reply from me. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 12:50:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00589 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18473 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34155 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67403-6952>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:39 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout37.mx.aol.com (port 1550 [198.81.11.29]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67515-6953>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:40:34 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout37.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA29231; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971008103453_827584519@emout17.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: london@sunsite.unc.edu, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: reprise: guilds X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 In a message dated 10/7/97 5:43:06 PM, london@sunsite.unc.edu wrote: > >Dan: How do you define a "Standard Design"? Is this a "macro" approach >that would, in reality, utilize the development of "plant guilds" within >a permaculture design for a given area of land? Actually, this is Bill's concept and approach. As others have pointed out in this discussion, there are certain solutions that have a broader applicability than just one design. For example, in our special order list we have species lists, energy value tables for North American tree species, solutions to convection circulation that heat and cool homes in season, water cisterns that automatically reserve the first flush of water full of bird shit, etc., for irrigation, an "open siphon" design that can accept catchment water from different levels for point by point gravity irrigation on very porous soils, etc. We do not have species assemblies as such, though we have the raw materials to concoct them based on design need, compatibility, and sit e requirements. I can see a species assembly being useful where someone requires a specific species in a specific climate and wants to know what goes with it. For example, despite their serious need for high maintenance for must uses, apples are popular. What works with apples? Well we know that there are spontanious, virtually symbiotic associations of black raspberry? What else. Maybe there would be a package of species that would work, but I've never seen one. I'd fear that they would be more limiting than enabling. There are just too many factors. Biological solutions are generally far more complex and site specific than things like irrigation systems, convection loops, etc. I've seen apple associated in other places, again spontaneously, with (Eastern NA) blackberries, red raspberries, and black raspberries, all worked out nicely as to shade/sun/moisture factors. If I had a standard design for this, I'd want to know that a bonafide permaculture designer were using it as other site factors could be very different. I have seen in Spain (Catalonia) apples coming through the blackberries, just as Mollison describes. I don't recall seeing it elsewhere, but obviously it happens also in Australia. In some places, the brambles may suppress the trees. I keep getting toughts to go on with this, but that's my point. There is no substitution for experience. It takes an experienced person to properly interpret and apply the experiences of others. The requirement for instant, vs earned, gratification is a problem in our society, world wide now that TV has spread like cancer, and that is working against us. I think for this discussion we have to accept that there are people who want to skip the preparation time and learn as they go and others who feel that preparation is time well spent. That seems to be the only part of Larry's post that requires a reply from me. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 13:27:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01218 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00280 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 38934 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67459-6948>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:19:34 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@IP9-201.DBC.COM (port 4819 [199.217.9.201]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67359-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:10:31 -0400 Received: from lmdavidson (199.217.10.10) by ipgate.dbc.com (MX F5.0) with SMTP; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:12:41 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971008171433.00946724@pop.batnet.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 10:14:33 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Loren Davidson To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: beauty@pop.batnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 At 09:41 AM 10/8/97 -0400, YankeePerm@aol.com wrote: >Regardin the Activist letters, I think that the authors took an unfortunate >route to express what some people to perceive to be a problem. I suggest >that perhaps more harm than good will come of making this a topic of >discussion on the internet. Perhaps. And perhaps the discussion will give list.members an opportunity to really think about what they believe, examine their own self-picture with respect to how they choose to relate to the greater Permaculture movement/community/aggregate. Observing and clarifying one's sense of self and purpose is to me an important activity...perhaps the ultimate in "Zone 0" design. I'm one of those Californians who had to choose this year: Which course do I take? And I believe that the choice I made, to take the course from local/bioregional instructors rather than from Bill and Scott, was the best choice *for me*. But I can see where others, with different goals and needs, would have been better served by the Mollinson course(s). >There are actual public matters that no one has commented on, e.g. arbitrary >creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, (...), with no consultation of the permaculture >community, meaning design course graduates. If this is true, it doesn't sound entirely consistent with principles of local/bioregional control and grassroots organization...which while not necessarily "100% Permaculture", are to me at least consonant with ecological principles. This may not have occurred to the organizers...yet. Do we want a national >organization. Is the design consistent with permaculture? How do officers >get selected? If we want one, what do we want it to do? (Here we get back >to the point.) Should it not promote American permaculturists as any other >professional organization does? All excellent questions, worthy of thought and reflection. It's my understanding that a directory of *all* design course grads is being prepared, to be made available to all design course grads. I think this is a Good Thing, as it will enable organization, communication, and networking to occur on whatever scale the participants want: locally, regionally, nationally. Personally, I'd like to be in better touch with folks in my bioregion, and don't currently see much benefit to me in a national organization. But I realize again that others may see differently than I. The idea of an organization imposed "from above" sounds to me a lot like saying, "I want to grow ginseng, so I'll just plant it on this hot, sunny, sun-facing slope". If this is the case, I anticipate that the results will become obvious, sooner or later, and perhaps some of the good Permaculturists involved will observe these results and adjust their design accordingly. :) Just another data point, Loren, learning to observe patterns... -- Loren Davidson loren@wombat.net http://www.batnet.com/beauty/ "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind" - seen on a bumper sticker From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 13:59:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04030 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11363 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 43859 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <66940-6952>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:51:34 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-3.compuserve.com (port 3950 [149.174.177.133]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67437-6952> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:48:03 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id NAA06988 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710081350_MC2-2339-8565@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:49:39 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Re: Mollison bashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Message text written by INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu >Actually, I don't think there were too many people at the course AT ALL, and it was an honor and privelege to be among most of the people who were there (just to clarify, I was at the Southern Cal. course which was not the same one in which Bill and Scott had to make a dramatic exit from the premises. However it was the same promoter so the problems already existed - and there was still a very large number of students). Lee, from my experiences 125 is darn close to the limit in the setting of those classes. The Northern Calif. class was more than double that. >I agree with you that I think the promoters screwed up, but not for that particular reason. < What then? I respect Dan's position that we shouldn't gossip, but if there is no dialogue on issues without Mollison's presence then we're not going to uncover other things pertinent to what we're doing. >........ Also let's remember that Mollison didn't start teaching permaculture until he was nearly 50. Before that he had just about every sort of job you could name, and THAT is what enabled him to become a good designer and teacher. In a permaculture-style economy, people will be multi-skilled as we had to be in times past, and income will likely come from many diverse sources. The commentary we've seen here and in the PC Activist articles suggests that a lot of teachers have their eggs in one basket and are also attempting to hoard information that ought never to be hoarded. This is a very important issue, perhaps the very heart of the conflicts we are seeing.< I tend to agree; however, it's easier said than done. Pioneer life. Gene From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 13:59:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04041 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11464 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 43903 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67189-6953>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:51:48 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-3.compuserve.com (port 3947 [149.174.177.133]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67435-6953> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:48:03 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id NAA06983 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710081350_MC2-2339-8564@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:49:36 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Re: Mollison bashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 Message text written by INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu >There are actual public matters that no one has commented on, e.g. arbitrary creation of a national permaculture organization for the USA, once again, is this the fourth for fifth time?, with no consultation of the permaculture community, meaning design course graduates. < I share Dan's feeling of isolation on this one; they could have called a national conference if the intent was to create a professional association. My understaning is that the reason for the association was/is multifaceted, of course. On one level, Pittman is reported as complaining that there are some, well, less than perfect permaculture teachers floating around, issuing design certificates. But Mollison always stated that the louzy teachers would weed themselves out because they will not acquire a good reputation: a self-limiting system. Pittman reportedly does not share this view. Personally, I can see how the indiscriminite issuing of design certificates flames this problem, but in the end it doesn't matter (see below). Mollison spends a lot of time covering drylands strategies which are not covered by the permaculture courses at The Farm. But having co-taught at The Farm, I can say that there are bioregional strategies for eastern woodlands covered that Mollison doesn't cover. Those classes may in fact be better suited for local residents; after all, a farmer in my area, East Tennessee, should damn well understand the forest systems. I've seen too many so-called permaculturists move to a wooded area and start clearing so they can build a permaculture garden. This is not good permaculture but folks still miss the boat. After 2 weeks of hearing about the salting of lands, net-and-pan strategies, and tropical paradise gardens, one can ignorantly come back to the eastern woods and start to make a mess of things. Personally, I've supplemented my permaculture education with eight weeks at the Tracker School which is eastern-woods based (despite Tom Brown's claim that survival and caretaking skills are universal, another topic and discussion group). Mollison also covers earthworks and pond-building. If you want to go broke in a hurry, go out and build a bunch of fish ponds after a 2-week design course. Having a civil engineering degree I can tell you that he gives you just enough rope to hang yourself on all that. And so what? Should we require certificate holders to all have engineering degrees and go to Tracker school? Absolutely not. I have a certain sphere of influence in which I can apply permaculture. Others have spheres much different and much larger than mine. Some are writers, others lawyers, others are savvy on the internet and can set up pages of reference information, etc. It's all part of the puzzle. The attempt to "own" the concepts of permaculture and to put a tax on it is one of those humanalities out of which we will just have to evolve. Folks are going to try. I've just about given up on the 2-week course, issuing certificates and all that. The certificates aren't worth the paper they're written on IMO. If we start creating a professional society of permaculturists, then we're falling in to the same old trap that every other wave of enlightenment has fallen into (the churches come to mind) -- existing so as to perpetuate ourselves. Permaculture is a lifestyle as much as anything, and it doesn't work unless EVERYONE on the planet participates. Do we have a professional society of air breathers, or water drinkers, or space taker-upers? What good is a bachelors degree in psychology anyway? Would you like fries with that? So let them set up their professiona society if they can. In case you haven't noticed, the other groups on the planet that already own their titles, don't use the word permaculture; but in many many ways they are slowlynevolving to the same thing. Example: the architects and "green architecture"; sustainable development; deep ecology, organic gardening, etc. In many ways the permaculture community is already being scoffed at by the "professional" communities as being amateur. Personally, I don't care, it's their problem. Now having rambled on about that (sorry) I want to get to the other main reason for this American Permaculture Institute that I do see as being worthy, and that is for a collection point for project funding. Mollison told us at an advanced course in May, 1996 that when he first conceived of permaculture, he thought that it was going to take an army to pull it off. Well we have that army, he says. (I don't agree but that's off the point). Now he wants to take it to the next step and set up a permaculture development bank, like the world bank, that will fund projects. Well if you want money on this planet, where do you go? If they could pull that off and I could go and get $10 million for a project, then we'd be on to semething. So on that note I say, go for it guys. I'll help any way I can. Gene From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 8 16:03:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11803 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18735 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA15120; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:49:49 -0400 Received: from one.mind.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA13671; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:43:43 -0400 Received: from [206.151.158.73] (ip67.mind.net [206.151.158.73]) by one.mind.net (8.8.5/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA29918; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710081949.MAA29918@one.mind.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:47:36 -0800 Reply-To: peace@mind.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: peace@mind.net (Olafur Brentmar) To: UNC Perm List Cc: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Kinship Gardening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id QAA11803 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Fellow Plant Enthusiasts and Permies! In the discussion about plant guilds, coevolutionary kinship gardens has been mentioned as a type of guild, since my name was also mentioned, I find it pertinent to briefly explain these layouts here. Coevolutionary kinship gardens was conceptually born from a desire to understand biodiversity (especially as it applies to plants). I was also motivated by the need to organize our information on plants, our seed collections, and our plant processing lab and storeroom in some way other than an 'alphabetical-linear' system. Swedish botantist Rolf Dahlgren's taxonomy diagrams depicting plant relationships became the basis for organizing our data as well as comphrehending plant biodiversity. These coevolutionary kinship maps, (as I have called them - they are also known as Dahlgrams) translate complicated taxonomical language into images. They set a new paradigm for education in plant biodiversity replacing alphabetical lists of Latin nomenclature with illustrations of plant relationships. The difference between a coevolutionary kinship map and the Linnéan Latin system can be compared to the difference between looking at geographical map of a state versus reading an alphabetical listing of the cities, towns and counties of the state. After 10 years of entering data, Peace Garden Institue (PGI) has developed a database of the world flora indexed by a truly unique coevolutionary mapping system. PGI's plant database addresses the need for comprehension of plant diversity, in environmental, economic and taxonomic terms. Conceptual insight into the many aspects of plant diversity is essential for constructive solutions to most environmental issues. The database provides the educational conceptual insight necessary for these biologists and many other functions. The information has been gathered and prepared to serve not only as an educational resource but also as the backbone of PGI's model project for a sustainable rural plant based economy. As a primary part of the educational approach to plant diversity and its internal workings, PGI is setting up botanical kinship gardens landscaped after the map paradigm. Conceived as the central focus of PGI's horticultural education project, thess gardens will demonstrate genetic diversity and coevolutionary relationships in the flora of our local bioregion (alongside many other economic plants) thus facilitating the practical education of new generations of gardeners, botanists and seedsmen. In order to meet the demands of the ecological challenges of the future, many skilled biologists, amateur and professional, are needed. So, the intention with kinship gardens is to learn taxonomic relationships and, in so doing also, how to manage micro-ecosystems. In order to make intelligent choices for companion plantings and/or Mollisonian plant guilds a good understanding of taxonomy goes a long way. Adapting known biological 'cooperons' to different bioregions is not trivial, it means finding other species with similar features, these are most likely found among its close kins. Thus kinship gardens facilitates systematic learning of the many aspects and dimensions of genetic diversity its similarities and uniqueness. Comprehension of these issues are fundamental for success and the advancement of new insights in 'agroecology/agroforestry/permaculture/sustainable-agriculture' with peace in mind Olafur Brentmar ---------------------------------------------------------- ************* Peace Garden Institute ************** -- School of Horticulture and Sustainable Living -- educational publications and kinship maps available ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ P.O. Box 3179 - Applegate - Oregon 97530 tel: 541 846-8995 - email: peace@mind.net ************** From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 16:23:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12213 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24441 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34127 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67680-6948>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:15:19 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@brickbat9.mindspring.com (port 1166 [207.69.200.12]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <66228-6953>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:07:38 -0400 Received: from Lee (user-37kbsv4.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.243.228]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA02549 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971008160958.00d226d0@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 16:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Lee Flier To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing In-Reply-To: <199710081350_MC2-2339-8565@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 Gene Monaco wrote: >Lee, from my experiences 125 is darn close to the limit in the setting of >those classes. The Northern Calif. class was more than double that. I thought the Northern CA. class was about 200-220. And I agree, under normal circumstances it would be too many. But the point was that I thought it was a very special situation. I'll probably take more courses in the future, just to be in my own bioregion and to experience the smaller class setting. But I just wanted to stress as someone who was there that I didn't think the class size detracted IN ANY WAY from the learning experience - in fact it might have been enhanced by the fact that so many of the students were already themselves practicing or teaching Permaculture, or related subjects, and gave presentations during the evenings to the other students. In short, Mollison's presence coupled with aggressive marketing created a unique critical mass of people who would probably not have met otherwise. I thought it was great. I will add that the Southern California residents who were at this course felt sufficiently bonded by the experience that they have formed the South Coast Permaculture Guild (sorry Dan!), and I've already received numerous flyers, emails and other news of wonderful events they have sponsored in that region. They also pledged to continue to monitor the facilities where the course was held - for which the class made design recommendations. This was REALLY encouraging news to me, as I am from Los Angeles and was NEVER able to mobilize people in that area to get together to do community improvement work. Make no mistake, a lot of good things came out of that course! >>I agree with you that I think the promoters screwed up, but not for that >particular reason. < > >What then? I respect Dan's position that we shouldn't gossip, but if there >is no dialogue on issues without Mollison's presence then we're not going >to uncover other things pertinent to what we're doing. Well, I think the problem had little to do with Mollison anyway. In a nutshell I think the problem was the promoters' motivations. Scott Pittman sent a very frank and open letter to all the students explaining to us what happened (some of which was mentioned in the PC Activist but I think a lot of relevant stuff was omitted), starting with the fact that Dave Blume repeatedly asked Scott and Bill if he could co-teach the course with them (this in spite of the fact that Mr. Blume only himself took his first course a year and a half ago). Scott and Bill politely told him no, but even without having received Scott's letter I could tell during the course that Dave's agenda was to draw attention to himself. He several times tried to schedule speakers and activities of his own choosing, during class time, and without notifying Bill and Scott. Bill was furious about this on at least one occasion that I witnessed. Scott also pointed out in his letter (which is certainly provably true) that he and Bill had told Dave they intended to register the Internet domain name permaculture-institute.org, but when they tried they found it had already been registered by Dave Blume! I remember sending Blume e-mail before the course and wondering why in the world he would choose that name when his organization is called International Institute for Ecological Agriculture. This and many other smaller incidents I observed at the course really gave me the feeling that the promoters were just using these courses to draw attention to themselves at the expense of everyone else. This was before I even heard the allegations in Scott's letter about misappropriated or "missing" money from the courses, etc. I was very saddened by this because I thought Dave was clearly a knowledgeable and experienced farmer and has a lot to offer in his own right, without resorting to such things. His father is a farmer here in Georgia and sells his produce at the local organic farmers' market, along with my other farmer friend Christopher Daugherty, who was also at the course in California and also experienced difficulties with Dave despite being friends with his father! Well, people are complicated. But I hope everyone involved has learned something and I guess we'll all continue to learn as the rest of the "drama" unfolds. = Lee = ================================== Lee A. Flier lflier@mindspring.com http://lflier.home.mindspring.com Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 17:02:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15117 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08793 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 39763 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67271-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:54:22 -0400 Received: from root@coyote.rain.org (port 4745 [198.68.144.2]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67488-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:52:36 -0400 Received: from default (s12.term1.sb.rain.org [198.68.144.142]) by coyote.rain.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA27281; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971008135436.007bec40@rain.org> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 13:54:36 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: sal To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: want on that mailing list In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971008160958.00d226d0@mindspring.com> References: <199710081350_MC2-2339-8565@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: sals@rain.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 >I will add that the Southern California residents who were at this course >felt sufficiently bonded by the experience that they have formed the South >Coast Permaculture Guild (sorry Dan!), and I've already received numerous >flyers, emails and other news of wonderful events they have sponsored in >that region. They also pledged to continue to monitor the facilities where >the course was held - for which the class made design recommendations. >This was REALLY encouraging news to me, as I am from Los Angeles and was >NEVER able to mobilize people in that area to get together to do community >improvement work. How do I get on that mailing list of the South Coast Permaculture Guild? It is right up the street from me and I would like to get those flyers.and emails and other news of wonderful events. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 20:59:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20026 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15887 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 58631 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <66569-6953>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:52:23 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (port 2560 [203.108.7.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <66769-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:51:19 -0400 Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p23.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.39]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA29812 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:53:32 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710090053.KAA29812@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:14:54 +1000 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: Subject: Re: Applications [strip crops] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCD3DB.67A50DA0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD3DB.67A50DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The difference between strip farming with poultry free range in between the strips and actually using tractors- is the concentration of birds on the soil, this concentration can quickly denude an area which is open to weed seed or your seed. This is desirable for intensive beds but may be a unnecessary for large scale farming. When I use the chickens in a small concentration here I am left with woody plants and sedges and a mix of less tasty plants (tasty for hens) but there is a wider control of pests such as insects, caterpillars, slugs and snails. For orchard maintenance you could use 100 birds to the acre [Mollison] it all depends on how much understorey or ground cover there is for the birds to eat. The greatest risk is soil loss and permaculture is about upmost soil and water conservation. I would consider the options with the least amount of management and energy for you, the farmer. Permaculture is really about observation and confidence in trying things, Why not divide the birds up into a couple of test runs, and find what really works for you, then hopefully you'll be kind to share it with us. All the best. April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place ---------- > From: Lawrence F. London, Jr. > To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu > Subject: Re: Applications [strip crops] > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 6:36 AM > > > On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Mike Skinner wrote: > > > Pardon me, in advance, > > But could a poor educated peasant farmer like myself get an > > answer to my "animal tractor on strip cropped" question or is this > > not the appropriate forum? > > Now that's an interesting concept: strip cropping (as opposed > to row crops, broadcast sowings (i.e. greens, cover/forage crops) > no-till raised bed cropping). This sounds like a quick and possibly > effective way to prepare an area for later preparation of raised beds. > Take an area, weed seed bank and all, cut over existing weeds, distribute > soil amendments/compost, digging fork/spade fork/U-Bar dig the area > quickly, plant crop seeds. In the above example forage crops intended for > chickens would be planted. Weeds would be allowed to regrow/germinate > then be thinned or removed depending on appropriateness/usefullness or > whether they are part of a guild or have companion, biocontrol, medicinal > or food use. Strip cropping would give you an excellent opportunity to > sample your weed seed bank and experiment with integrating various weeds > into your permanent cropping schemes, whether they be row, raised bed or > strip. You would also have the opportunity to see which weeds are good > forage crops for chickens and then start saving their seeds for planting > ahead of the path of the chicken tractor. If they like weeds that > are miners of subsoil-located nutrients, all the better. > > Re: Bill Mollison: I agree with Jack that Bill's writings and teachings > should, by example, encourage aspiring permaculturists to find solutions > for themselves in the regions where they are working, using his methods > when applicable. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm > mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net > http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden > http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD3DB.67A50DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The difference between strip = farming with poultry free range in between the strips
and actually = using tractors-  is the concentration of birds on the soil, = this concentration can quickly denude an
area which is open to weed = seed or your seed.  
This is desirable for intensive beds but = may be a unnecessary for large scale farming.
When I = use the chickens in a small concentration here I am left with woody = plants and sedges and a mix of less tasty plants (tasty for hens) but = there is a wider control of pests such as insects, caterpillars, slugs = and snails.
For orchard maintenance you could use 100 birds to the = acre [Mollison] it all depends on how much understorey or ground = cover
there is for the birds to eat.
The greatest risk is soil = loss and permaculture is about upmost soil and water = conservation.

I would consider the options with = the least amount of management and energy for you, the = farmer.


Permaculture is really about observation and = confidence in trying things,  Why not divide the birds up into a = couple of test runs,
and find what really works for you, then = hopefully you'll be kind to share it with us.

All the = best.

April Sampson-Kelly  askpv@ozemail.com.au
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make = this world a better place

----------
> From: Lawrence F. = London, Jr. <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
> To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu
> Subject: Re: Applications [strip = crops]
> Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 6:36 AM
> =
>
> On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Mike Skinner wrote:
> =  
> > Pardon me, in advance,
> > =     But could a poor educated peasant farmer like = myself get an
> > answer to my "animal tractor on strip = cropped" question or is this
> > not the appropriate = forum?
>
> Now that's an interesting concept: strip = cropping (as opposed
> to row crops, broadcast sowings (i.e. = greens, cover/forage crops)
> no-till raised bed cropping). This = sounds like a quick and possibly
> effective way to prepare an = area for later preparation of raised beds.
> Take an area, weed = seed bank and all, cut over existing weeds, distribute
> soil = amendments/compost, digging fork/spade fork/U-Bar dig the area
> = quickly, plant crop seeds. In the above example forage crops intended = for
> chickens would be planted. Weeds would be allowed to = regrow/germinate
> then be thinned or removed depending on = appropriateness/usefullness or
> whether they are part of a guild = or have companion, biocontrol, medicinal
> or food use. Strip = cropping would give you an excellent opportunity to
> sample your = weed seed bank and experiment with integrating various weeds
> = into your permanent cropping schemes, whether they be row, raised bed = or
> strip. You would also have the opportunity to see which weeds = are good
> forage crops for chickens and then start saving their = seeds for planting
> ahead of the path of the chicken tractor. If = they like weeds that
> are miners of subsoil-located nutrients, = all the better.
>
> Re: Bill Mollison: I agree with Jack = that Bill's writings and teachings
> should, by example, encourage = aspiring permaculturists to find solutions
> for themselves in the = regions where they are working, using his methods
> when = applicable.
>
>
> = --------------------------------------------------------------
> =  Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm
> =  mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net
>  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
>  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html=
> = --------------------------------------------------------------
> =
>

------=_NextPart_000_01BCD3DB.67A50DA0-- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 23:25:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA24862 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26102 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34480 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <66913-6952>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:17:47 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@brickbat9.mindspring.com (port 3069 [207.69.200.12]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <66913-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:17:14 -0400 Received: from Lee (user-38lc83c.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.32.108]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA28660 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971008232050.00d2b500@mindspring.com> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 23:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Lee Flier To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: reprise: guilds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Dan wrote: >Well in the 1940s, when I was a child, everyone had a poly culture garden if >they had any land at all. <... lots of great stuff snipped... > >This is from my own personal experience as a man 10 years >younger than Mollison. Yes. Sad isn't it, how quickly people forget? Until a few years ago most people didn't even know that hemp used to be grown for industry in the US. I think most RURAL folks who are your age and older are aware of these things, although many of them jumped on the bandwagon of the chemical/monocultural "revolution" and felt ashamed of their former practices. Then again even a lot of the older farmers I know around this area don't have a clue about any of the things you mention. I don't really think most people were aware of what they were giving up when they gave up organics and polyculture and self-sufficiency - most of which they didn't practice for environmental reasons but because it was the most efficient thing at the time, and when chemical companies and social planners convinced them that industrial methods were MORE efficient, they listened. But anyway this is just a gentle reminder that although these things may be taken for granted in your personal experience, for the average Joe it just isn't. People's eyes light up when I talk to them about using trees on their farms and the like - it just sounds like the Garden of Eden to them. Sad that we lost connection to such obvious things, but a joy to watch people rediscover them. >...I believed, and still do, that novice teachers >can do more harm than good. ... We really don't have time to >fix yet more mistakes.... Good intentions are >dangerous, sometimes, if not harnessed to a rigorous regard for quality and >respect enough for Mother Nature to take time to learn, really understand >well, what she is up to before intervening. There are ways to accelerate >this learning process, but a three-week design course is, by itself not >enough. <... more great stuff snipped... > >The people we are teaching, when they really live on the land, are the best >source of information. Again, quoting Bill, we are looking for the "most >benefit for the least change." Your point is well taken and I agree. Bill himself stressed this often when he spoke of going to teach in impoverished countries. And I fully support and really appreciate your later (very thoughtful) comments about the local people knowing much more than the teachers about local conditions. Listening and asking questions would be the highest priority in these cases. I'll say again because I guess it wasn't clear enough (and we apply permaculture in so many different situations): my earlier comments about experimentation pertain mostly to industrialized areas, and to the zones outside our front doors. I don't see a problem with taking an acre or two and using it as both a laboratory and a healing space. It seems obvious that you wouldn't do this to a fragile ecosystem or one that already supports a knowledgable population - but in most of mainstream USA and Europe that isn't the case. And if anything it's mainstream USA that needs the most education, because we are doing the most damage of the most blatantly ignorant kind - thus Bill's comment that even after only two weeks we could hardly do worse. >I think everyone who has really gotten the point of a full permaculture >design course (whatever that is nowadays) is competent to teach weekend >workshops if they feel competent. Beyond that, I think we should exercise >restraint to learn how to do things right, because we don't have time to do >them over. Yes, I disagree with many in the permaculture movement on that >point. I also think that we should not prosletize until everyone who wants >to learn permaculture of their own concern has their fill. Then we might >start to think about it. Right. As I said earlier I'm not interested in proselytizing - only in setting examples that people will WANT to follow. Enthusiasm is infectious. >Well, we have gotten a ways from guilds. I'm letting a number of Lee's >points go unanswered because I think the discussion is getting to be of >interest to only a few people. I'd be happy to comment, if I have something >to add, to people not yet involved in the discussion. To me, the issue of >preparation for teaching is far more important than whether or not we approve >of the concept of guilds. So I have made one statement on that. And a good one. I don't think it's of interest to only a few people, because most of us at some point or another probably have taught or will teach permaculture - on purpose or by accident. And it is still really important as you say how we pass on information, and how we prepare to share it with others, even if not on a professional basis. Thanks for bringing some further enlightenment to the discussion. = Lee = ================================== Lee A. Flier lflier@mindspring.com http://lflier.home.mindspring.com Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 8 23:27:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA24878 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26668 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34967 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67386-6954>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:19:40 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (port 62829 [156.46.73.3]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67499-6952>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:18:50 -0400 Received: from 156.46.73.119 (ppp19.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.119]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA03349; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:19:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <343BFA3B.4839@mwt.net> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 22:25:16 +0100 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Miekal And To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List Subject: Re: Kinship Gardening References: <199710090132.SAA08430@one.mind.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 olaf, I flushed you out of hiding. hope your project has solved its land issues & youve landed where you want to be. Im quite thankful that you explained the kinship gardening idea, & would love to know what you think about possible intersections between kinship gardening & the ideas of of a multi-storied forest farm. miekal -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From askpv@ozemail.com.au Thu Oct 9 08:00:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03802 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net [203.108.7.41]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06305 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.35]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00331; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:55:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710091155.VAA00331@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: , "permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu" , , , "Permaculture Mailing List Processor" , "Permaculture Mailing List Australia" , "Permaculture Mailing List (old)" , Subject: permaculture home pages Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:10:51 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have added some stuff to our homepage: I have listed permaculture principles with some examples and would like feedback. some new practical topics are no-dig, herb spiral, Typical permaculture style analysis of compost worms for small systems. Have added a heap of great pages, any more with hands on info? Any links available for practical stuff, this seems to be what people surf for. Thanks in advance, April April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have added some stuff to = our homepage:
I have listed permaculture principles with some = examples and would like feedback.
some new practical topics are = no-dig, herb spiral, Typical permaculture style analysis of compost = worms
for small systems.
Have added a heap of great pages, any = more with hands on info?


Any links available for practical = stuff, this seems to be what people surf for.
Thanks in advance, = April


April Sampson-Kelly  askpv@ozemail.com.au
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make = this world a better place

------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40-- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 08:00:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03810 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06409 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:55:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 58738 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67587-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:53:20 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (port 4367 [203.108.7.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67455-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:53:04 -0400 Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.35]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00319; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:55:07 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710091155.VAA00319@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:06:48 +1000 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: "Permaculture Mailing List (old)" , "Envirolink Perm List" Subject: guilds work for me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place I agree with you, for me guilds are essential texture I see plants and landscape with guilds, I see animals and habitats in guilds, I see insects, animals, micro=organisms in guilds. I see people working in guilds, I see myself as part of a guild of people, an edge species not a canopy, I venture out into new ideas knowing I have the support of other behind me. Nothing is my formula in the permaculture that I have come to appreciate. No two systems will be the same, so why do some of us expect formulae guilds? Australian native species work heavily with micro-organisms and natural behaviour of surrounding species, My home is in a rainforest, a giant guild. Understanding guilds as small sections of a wider web is a very strong permaculture tool and I am not blinded by political or personality dislikes, I like everyone who seeks to use a range of natural tools - in the efforts to find one suited to their situation.!! > > April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au > www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv > My space can make this world a better place > > ---------- > > From: Miekal And > > To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu > > Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org > > Subject: reprise: guilds > > Date: Sunday, October 05, 1997 8:23 PM > > > > Im not content to see this "discussion" about guilds laid to rest yet. > > Dan H mentioned that he thot it was one of Mollison's weaker ideas, that > > there are no ready made answers when it comes to species selection. & > > while I agree that nothing replaces knowing the plants & what will work > > & what wont work, I also think that there are ways of thinking of design > > that build upon nature & evolutionary affinities that some plants have > > with other plants. Companion planting has been mentioned tho in my book > > I think of garden annuals. I am also quite interested in designs that > > further the ideas of Alan Kapuler & Olaf Brentmar & co-evolutionary > > gardening, which I see as a taxonomical guild system. > > > > Also for the record I wonder if the notion of guilds actually originates > > from Mollison, I believe that indigenous agriculture has been enlarging > > upon these notions forever, for instance the 3 sisters & medicine > > gardens are 2 that come to mind. But then what is a guild? > > > > > > Miekal And > > -- > > @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# > > Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime > > QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: > > http://net22.com/qazingulaza > > e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 08:01:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03824 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06624 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 58874 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67569-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:54:22 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (port 4395 [203.108.7.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67382-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:53:19 -0400 Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.35]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00331; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:55:11 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710091155.VAA00331@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:10:51 +1000 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: , "permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu" , , , "Permaculture Mailing List Processor" , "Permaculture Mailing List Australia" , "Permaculture Mailing List (old)" , Subject: permaculture home pages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have added some stuff to our homepage: I have listed permaculture principles with some examples and would like feedback. some new practical topics are no-dig, herb spiral, Typical permaculture style analysis of compost worms for small systems. Have added a heap of great pages, any more with hands on info? Any links available for practical stuff, this seems to be what people surf for. Thanks in advance, April April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place ------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have added some stuff to = our homepage:
I have listed permaculture principles with some = examples and would like feedback.
some new practical topics are = no-dig, herb spiral, Typical permaculture style analysis of compost = worms
for small systems.
Have added a heap of great pages, any = more with hands on info?


Any links available for practical = stuff, this seems to be what people surf for.
Thanks in advance, = April


April Sampson-Kelly  askpv@ozemail.com.au
www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv
My space can make = this world a better place

------=_NextPart_000_01BCD4A4.010EBF40-- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 08:01:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03839 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06638 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 58887 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67596-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:54:24 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (port 4399 [203.108.7.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67562-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:53:19 -0400 Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.35]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00414 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:55:26 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710091155.VAA00414@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:36:31 +1000 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: Subject: Re: Tractors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 Apart from being one of only vocal Aussies on this mailing group, and I have mentioned it before (so I appologise to others with good long term recollection there) Alan Savouries techniques of cell grazing and Flash/controlled management, DOES NOT always apply to our ancient and fragile soils which have developed a symbiotic relationship with hard hooved prarie animals. But in areas with soil history of hard hooves- go for it, it seems a whole lot more sensible than letting the beasts wander and compact favourite areas. Harness all the energies you can from them, use their tracks to compact and stablise contour routes, use them to spread useful weed seed too. My personal definition of a weed is something that has little respect for diversity. April PS. on my web page is stuff about Robyn Tredwell for discussion about the useful of cattle and weed control. under PRINCIPLES- observation repaces energy. April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place ---------- > From: Mike Skinner > To: 'Permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu' > Subject: Tractors > Date: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 12:29 PM > > Hi All, > In response to Kirk's comments: . " My > hope is that the animals will constantly graze this grass while > simultaneously enriching the soil with their poop thus setting the stage > for the next succession of plants to take over (i.e. the perennial > herbs/weeds). ," I theoretically like "flash/controlled" grazing, meaning, I > think, a very heavy stocking rate which is moved very frequently. The idea > being that the poop is evenly distributed, not around the watering holes, and > the animals are not given a chance to selectively graze and trample and > cause "areas of repugnance" (cow pies). > He also says, "On another note...would spreading mineral amendments on top of grassy,weedy, or otherwise untilled areas be anywhere as effective as working it > into the soil or is this a complete waste of time and resources?" I've been told by > conventional sources that P needs to be deep-placed into the root zone and the N in manure will volitize unless plowed into the ground, but it will then spread out, sometimes upward or downward. But, then what did the buffalo do? > Then, Lawrence said,"If they like weeds that are miners of subsoil-located nutrients, all the better." I'm hoping to either control or make useful the dreaded > bindweed or morninglory. Since watching 3 generations fight the weed, I've > wondered if maybe that its not the problem, but that we farmers are the prob. > It definitely is a deep miner and has reported medicinal properties, but I think > it is bitter at times, rather unpalatable, and some livestock must be forced onto > it. It is for this reason that my "super tractor" would cruise across strips allowing > animals to take a break from their work and enjoy a few treats, as appropriate. > And then, thanks to Lawrence and Keith Johnson for encouraging the "noble peasant." > "Re: Bill Mollison: I agree with Jack that Bill's writings and teachings > should, by example, encourage aspiring permaculturists to find solutions > for themselves in the regions where they are working, using his methods > when applicable." > Thanks, > Mike Skinner > > > From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 9 08:08:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03960 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA08153 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA03934; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:56:34 -0400 Received: from server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA03332; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:49:47 -0400 Received: from dialup.ozemail.com.au (slwol1p19.ozemail.com.au [203.7.182.35]) by server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with ESMTP id VAA00319; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 21:55:07 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199710091155.VAA00319@server3.syd.mail.ozemail.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:06:48 +1000 Reply-To: askpv@ozemail.com.au Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "April Sampson-Kelly" To: "Permaculture Mailing List (old)" , "Envirolink Perm List" Subject: guilds work for me MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv My space can make this world a better place I agree with you, for me guilds are essential texture I see plants and landscape with guilds, I see animals and habitats in guilds, I see insects, animals, micro=organisms in guilds. I see people working in guilds, I see myself as part of a guild of people, an edge species not a canopy, I venture out into new ideas knowing I have the support of other behind me. Nothing is my formula in the permaculture that I have come to appreciate. No two systems will be the same, so why do some of us expect formulae guilds? Australian native species work heavily with micro-organisms and natural behaviour of surrounding species, My home is in a rainforest, a giant guild. Understanding guilds as small sections of a wider web is a very strong permaculture tool and I am not blinded by political or personality dislikes, I like everyone who seeks to use a range of natural tools - in the efforts to find one suited to their situation.!! > > April Sampson-Kelly askpv@ozemail.com.au > www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv > My space can make this world a better place > > ---------- > > From: Miekal And > > To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu > > Cc: permaculture@envirolink.org > > Subject: reprise: guilds > > Date: Sunday, October 05, 1997 8:23 PM > > > > Im not content to see this "discussion" about guilds laid to rest yet. > > Dan H mentioned that he thot it was one of Mollison's weaker ideas, that > > there are no ready made answers when it comes to species selection. & > > while I agree that nothing replaces knowing the plants & what will work > > & what wont work, I also think that there are ways of thinking of design > > that build upon nature & evolutionary affinities that some plants have > > with other plants. Companion planting has been mentioned tho in my book > > I think of garden annuals. I am also quite interested in designs that > > further the ideas of Alan Kapuler & Olaf Brentmar & co-evolutionary > > gardening, which I see as a taxonomical guild system. > > > > Also for the record I wonder if the notion of guilds actually originates > > from Mollison, I believe that indigenous agriculture has been enlarging > > upon these notions forever, for instance the 3 sisters & medicine > > gardens are 2 that come to mind. But then what is a guild? > > > > > > Miekal And > > -- > > @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# > > Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime > > QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: > > http://net22.com/qazingulaza > > e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 08:31:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04334 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA12943 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:26:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 61309 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67436-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:24:26 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-9.compuserve.com (port 1124 [149.174.206.139]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67085-9132> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:23:38 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id IAA00661 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710090824_MC2-2356-C169@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:23:59 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Mollison bashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 Hi Gene, Thanks for encouraging us to take heart and tighten our (money) belts. I agree that it's hard to make a $20 or $30 thousand dollar income from teaching and consulting but perhaps if you can get by on a $5 or $10 thousand income then you're getting somewhere. My wife and I have made it on as little in the last four years. We don't even have to file for taxes. I didn't read the article in the Activist but it sounded like teachers felt Bill and Scott were pulling students away from other courses. We hosted five courses with Scott and Bill over the last four years and none of them brought in a landslide of students. # of students per design course - 60, 35, 17 (earth works), 30, 20 (advanced design course). Anyhow, even though Bill can be gruff and grate his host the wrong way if they're not straight with him, I'm still glad to have him around here in the states. KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 9 09:13:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04977 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA22254 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA09540; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:01:18 -0400 Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA09441; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:00:30 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA22394; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971009090603_-469604327@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Re: guilds X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 I'm through with guilds for now, as what I've already said stands. However some clarification of standard designs seems to be in order as Jack's post seems to misunderstand them. A better term, and maybe one I'll start using now that I've been prompted to think about it, is "standard design component." It is like a word in a sentence. The word has a set of meanings which are reasonably well fixed at a particular place and time, but in a sentence context gives meaning utility. In the same way a standard design is a way to solve an extremely specific problem. As I said earlier, biological problems are rarely repeat themselves to that degree of specificity. When they do, symbionts evolve pretty quickly to solve them. So a standard design solves a particular problem in a particular way. We don't reinvent glass to make a greenhouse. And we don't need to reinvent convection to usefully move air in a greenhouse. There are maybe 5 or 6 classic attached greenhouse designs that provide the STARTING POINT for 90 percent of the well designed attached solar greenhouses in permaculture, if the designer is adequately informed. For example, the classic standard attached solar greenhouse design for a cool/cold temperate sunny-winter climate is a shallow pit with a 3 or 4 foot kneewall, 12 feet wide and a 60 degree slope of glass, oriented to midpoint open sky in the direction of the equator. Technically, there are small efficiencies in changing the glazing angle according to latitude, but in practice these are swamped by the site specific factors and are so small in benefit that the easy to construct 30/60/90 triangle becomes the design pattern. However, an equally useful standard design in the same climate is a vertical wall greenhouse, starting at about 40 degrees latitude and higher, especially, and especially if one has reliable winter snow or another good reflective surface. The distinction is a function of architecture--existing buildings may not look right with a modernistic looking greenhouse attached but a solar "porch" could fit right in, even in a historical area, as we did in one design. The point again is that the competence of the designer is the paramount determining factor, whether or not s/he plugs standard designs into the package. The idea of using a standard design to substitute for a permaculture design has not been considered by any responsible designer I know or every heard of. They are individual words, not merely in a sentence, but in a full poem. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 10:18:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06108 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09501 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 37345 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67435-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:10:46 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout08.mx.aol.com (port 4668 [198.81.11.23]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67678-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:09:58 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA10306 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971009101155_407482568@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Applications [strip crops] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 Strip cropping is now an accepted conservation practice. You can learn about it from the Cooperative Extension Service in the USA. The original post, again if my failing memory serves correctly, varied from standard strip cropping by specifying strips of UNIFORM WIDTH. Naturally, strips on contour are of differing widths. The good reasons for putting strips on contour are of course lost, but still, if the strips are even approximately at right angles to slope, it should be better than whole field cultivation. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 10:21:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06168 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10474 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 37739 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67640-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:13:37 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout17.mx.aol.com (port 2501 [198.81.11.43]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <66275-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:10:02 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA18352; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971009101219_338281800@emout17.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: loren@wombat.net, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Organizing, Nationally, Bioregionally, as Design Course Teachers, etc. X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 In a message dated 10/8/97 1:22:41 PM, loren@wombat.net wrote: >If this is true, it doesn't sound entirely consistent with principles of >local/bioregional control and grassroots organization...which while not >necessarily "100% Permaculture", are to me at least consonant with >ecological principles. This may not have occurred to the organizers...yet. Well you have got me thinking on this one, Loren. There are various concepts at work. One is a permaculture ethic to which all graduates of a design course are SUPPOSED to accept as a condition for certification. (If this has changed, no one passed the word.) A pamount ethic is that we do not compete with one another. This is not the most honored ethic in permaculture. In my 1981 course, Bill declared that people were to set up "territories," and other teachers were to come in only by permission. Like the bogus copyright on the word "permaculture", this proved very counterproductive. Later he abolished the territories principle. This was while the permaculture movement in the US was still sort of young. OK, now we have had teachers associations come and go and for practical reasons these need to be larger than bioregions. How many teachers can a bioregion support? (None in most cases, but that is another issue.) A couple attempts have been made at a global teaching association, guild (in the correct useage here), whatever. These too have dwindled away. Permaculture teachers associations have important functions--to try to encourage some sort of standards, to maybe set up some sort of certification program for new teachers so that they have at least minimal qualifications, to work on ways to develop the potential to teach permaculture. The concern of the Activist letter writers is that when the market is clear cut, a long dry spell ensues and good people drop out of teaching--people from this North American soil who live with the issues of the region. This makes us dependent on outside resources. This is not good bioregionalism. It is not good permaculture. My objection was to the approach in stating the problem. This is a professional matter and we should develop a professional forum to discuss it. I am talking about the profession of teaching full permaculture design courses for certification. For certification to mean anything, other than more resume hype, we need to support a core of good teachers from this region. A bit of cross fertilization is helpful. Maybe Bill can arrange for some of us to now go and teach permaculture to an equal number of Australians as a way to balance things out. (That is unlikely.) Ok, I don't have a good answer. I don't think that this is a problem to be solved at the bioregional level. I wonder how many courses now even include a section on bioregionalism. Something has to be cut as they get shorter and shorter. Personally, a national organization of permaculture teachers, initiated from the ground up and developed by consensus all the way through the process, makes more sense than a national permaculture association for everybody. I agree with you , Loren, that bioregional groups are more apprpriate for grass roots permaculture. (At lest I think this is your position.) And if there is already a bioregional association and not a permaculture association, I don't think the terminology is very important. Permaculture and bioregionalism are equally awkward terms. I don't think that everyone gets to vote on what the teachers decide or what their policy is. If we do have a national grass roots organization, and I haven't seen a justification for one yet, I certainly speak up for it promoting our own teachers, just like any other trade association. Anyone with a passport and visa is free to teach here, obviously. However the North American association should first consider the health of North American Permaculture, in my personal opinion. However until such a group is formed by some sort of general vote or acclamation, and until the officers are selected by North Americans (and I do NOT mean self-selected North Americans), I'm personally not interested. Let me restate that I think teacher exchanges between continents are a good thing. Bill Mollison is a special case because of his unique role in permaculture and in my view telling him not to come here isn't a productive way to solve the problem. Personally, I think it may be a really good idea for him to come and give seminars for many of our teachers, for example. It is his charisma that has launched permaculture in North America, as with many other places in the world. If permaculture is to survive and prosper, it has to be on thicker gruel than charisma, but surely in all that experience, our scores of North American teachers have much to learn. I say this as one who offers advanced training and so maybe I am undercutting myself. The point of the non-competition ethic is that we don't consider such matters in making the best decision. I'm really intereste in this issue as to how we associate. We have had some unattractive behind the scenes activity in permaculture that is not consistent with our goals and I think that a proper framwork can divert a lot of that counterproductive energy into more useful channels. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 10:21:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06176 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10487 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 37727 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67587-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:13:41 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout13.mx.aol.com (port 4137 [198.81.11.39]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <64849-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:10:03 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA08723; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971009101207_1076069576@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Once more on standard designs X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 Some clarification of standard designs seems to be in order as Jack's post seems to misunderstand the definition I passed along. I'm sorry if I was unclear. A better term, and maybe one I'll startusing now that I've been prompted to think about it, is "standard designcomponent." It is like a word in a sentence. The word has a set of meaningswhich are reasonably well fixed at a particular place and time, but in a sentence context gives meaning utility. In the same way a standard design is a way to solve an extremely specific problem. As I said earlier, biological problems are rarely repeat themselves to that degree of specificity. When they do, symbionts evolve pretty quickly to solve them. So a standard design solves a particular problem in a particular way. We don't reinvent glass to make a greenhouse. And we don't need to reinvent convection to usefully move air in a greenhouse. There are maybe 5 or 6 classic attached greenhouse designs that provide the STARTING POINT for 90 percent of the well designed attached solar greenhouses in permaculture, if the designer is adequately informed. For example, the classic standard attached solar greenhouse design for a cool/cold temperate sunny-winter climate is a shallow pit with a 3 or 4 foot kneewall, 12 feet wide and a 60 degree slope of glass, oriented to midpoint open sky in the direction of the equator. Technically, there are small efficiencies in changing the glazing angle according to latitude, but in practice these are swamped by the site specific factors and are so small in benefit that the easy to construct 30/60/90 triangle becomes the design pattern. However, an equally useful standard design in the same climate is a vertical wall greenhouse, starting at about 40 degrees latitude and higher, especially, and especially if one has reliable winter snow or another good reflective surface. The distinction is a function of architecture--existing buildings may not look right with a modernistic looking greenhouse attached but a solar "porch" could fit right in, even in a historical area, as we did in one design. The point again is that the competence of the designer is the paramount determining factor, whether or not s/he plugs standard designs into the package. The idea of using a standard design to substitute for a permaculture design has not been considered by any responsible designer I know or every heard of. They are individual words, not merely in a sentence, but in a full poem. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 11:08:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07009 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24498 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 47129 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67850-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:00:01 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@comp.uark.edu (port 35170 [130.184.252.197]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67771-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 10:57:49 -0400 Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA17436 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:59:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id PAA17133 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:00:44 GMT Message-Id: <199710091500.PAA17133@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:48:34 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: A Resource Guide to Organic Farming in Africa X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Adding the guide below to international resources on organic agriculture/permaculture: steve diver ======================================= *A Resource Guide of Organizations Promoting Organic Farming in East Africa Region, 1995.* John Kanyuiro Kihia and John Wanjau Njoroge, eds. Provides names, contact information and brief descriptions of organizations working to promote, research or support organic agriculture in East Africa. 116 pp. For price and ordering information, contact Kenya Institute of Organic Farming, P.O. Box 34972, Nairobi, Kenya; phone (254-2) 732-487; fax (254-2) 581-178; email kiof@elci.gn.apc.org. Source: Pesticide Action Network North America (PANNA) ================================================ -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 11:15:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07162 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26740 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 48303 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67807-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:07:44 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@brickbat8.mindspring.com (port 1673 [207.69.200.11]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67772-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:06:34 -0400 Received: from Lee (user-38lc8vs.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.35.252]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17809 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 11:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971009110957.00d331c4@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 11:09:57 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Lee Flier To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing In-Reply-To: <199710090824_MC2-2356-C169@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 After reading Kirby's comments I am compelled to repeat: those who are the most successful PRACTITIONERS of Permaculture - i.e. *don't need much income* (or have income from other diverse sources) - seem to also 1) be the most successful teachers and 2) be the least competitive amongst each other. Kirby, you also disproved another statement I have heard in PC Activist and elsewhere that people who've hosted courses for Mollison never do it a second time. Thanks for debunking that one! As for not bringing in a landslide of students, I still think there has been somewhat of a concern among some (including Bill) that permaculture in the U.S. has not taken hold in the way that it has elsewhere. Dan seems to allude to this also (in saying the US can't support teachers). I don't think we've yet reached that "critical mass" in terms of numbers that allows for real work to be done outside of the small pockets of intense activity. In the US, you often have to "market" yourself and that seems to be what most permies, understandably, are loathe to do. Dave Blume did it and now he along with Bill is taking heat for it. Thanks Kirby! = Lee = ================================== Lee A. Flier lflier@mindspring.com http://lflier.home.mindspring.com Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 14:08:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12817 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17354 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 48414 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <153856-9134>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:01:37 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout09.mx.aol.com (port 4964 [198.81.11.24]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <154176-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:57:49 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA19831 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971009135655_-661457124@emout09.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Organizing, Nationally, Bioregionally, as Design Course Teachers, etc. X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Oh, dear, not in permaculture, too! Seems like folks always get their panties in a knot over restraints in trade, territories, certifications, competition and such. If anyone is any good at what they do, let 'em loose to share themselves if that is their bent. I got nothing to loose but some learning to gain. Next problem is affording all these learning opportunities. And time to avoid rushing, of course. I'd give a lot to live next door to lots of you folks who snarl and rant on this list Seems like it would be great fun and good learning, too. Loosen up and open up. Everything to gain and nothing to lose. Greed ain't what its cracked up to be. I'll wager you have a lot to teach me and I may have a little you can use, too. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 9 14:36:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13374 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA25607 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA15129; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:22:57 -0400 Received: from dub-img-9.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14478; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:17:41 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id OAA17835; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:14:42 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: PC seed exchange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA13374 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two years ago? Thanks, Jack From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 14:38:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13434 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26320 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 60298 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <68265-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:32:38 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-9.compuserve.com (port 1292 [149.174.206.139]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <68229-9132> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:23:34 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.5) id OAA17835; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 13:14:42 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: PC seed exchange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two years ago? Thanks, Jack From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 18:37:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15785 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA00478 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:44:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41099 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67225-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:40:19 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@imo09.mx.aol.com (port 3544 [198.81.11.101]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67277-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:29:34 -0400 Message-Id: <19971009192934Z67277-9115+628@listserv.oit.unc.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:28:48 EDT Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Rebbry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 We've learned alot in the past 10-20 years about how men and women mature. Men individuate by attempting to establish their uniqueness; women mature through relationship. Bashing Mollison is an example of what my friend David Kramer calls "killing the father"--getting the father figure out of the way in order make room for oneself. Rebecca Bryant From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 18:41:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15788 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA00527 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41138 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67887-9115>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:40:35 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (port 47845 [156.46.73.3]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67969-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:38:10 -0400 Received: from 156.46.73.107 (ppp7.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.107]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA13431; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:35:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <343CDF26.3C3C@mwt.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:41:59 +0100 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Miekal And To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: PC seed exchange References: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 Jack Rowe wrote: > > Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the > permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two > years ago? > > Thanks, Jack 2nd Annual Permaculture Seed and Plant Exchange This Exchange is considered to be a group of growers and collectors who share propagating material with each other, more or less "at cost" and who are also willing to provide the same material to others - at a small profit to themselves. Our purpose is to: }promote the exchange of propagating material (seeds, roots, scions, etc.) of useful perennial/ self-sowing annual species and cultivars. }facilitate communication between persons interested in the same types of plants. }collect information about useful plants directly from growers. }provide an opportunity for collectors and growers to earn extra income. Membership in the Exchange is $7/yr. For this, you receive the annual catalogue and, in the autumn, listing forms for the next year's catalogue. (Those having contributed material will receive a printout of their listings, for revision.) To use the catalogue order seeds, etc. directly from the grower at the addresses given at the end of the catalogue. Standard price (ST) of a packet of at least 25 (unless otherwise indicated) seeds is: -to contributors listed in this catalogue, $1. -to all other, $2. For rare (CP, CO) seeds, plants, roots, etc. the price listed in the catalogue is the price to OTHER CONTRIBUTING GROWERS. To all others, the price is $1 more than the catalogue price. Overseas shipment add $1 per order for seeds. Overseas shipment of other items should be negotiated with the grower. To become a member of this Exchange or for further information, write: Joe Hollis PERMACULTURE SEED AND PLANT EXCHANGE 3020 Whiteoak Creek Road Burnsville, NC 28714 -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 9 18:54:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18655 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA04200 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:49:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA25157; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:37:34 -0400 Received: from westbyserver.westby.mwt.net by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24298; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 15:32:29 -0400 Received: from 156.46.73.107 (ppp7.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.107]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA13431; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 14:35:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <343CDF26.3C3C@mwt.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 14:41:59 +0100 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Miekal And To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: PC seed exchange References: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Jack Rowe wrote: > > Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the > permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two > years ago? > > Thanks, Jack 2nd Annual Permaculture Seed and Plant Exchange This Exchange is considered to be a group of growers and collectors who share propagating material with each other, more or less "at cost" and who are also willing to provide the same material to others - at a small profit to themselves. Our purpose is to: }promote the exchange of propagating material (seeds, roots, scions, etc.) of useful perennial/ self-sowing annual species and cultivars. }facilitate communication between persons interested in the same types of plants. }collect information about useful plants directly from growers. }provide an opportunity for collectors and growers to earn extra income. Membership in the Exchange is $7/yr. For this, you receive the annual catalogue and, in the autumn, listing forms for the next year's catalogue. (Those having contributed material will receive a printout of their listings, for revision.) To use the catalogue order seeds, etc. directly from the grower at the addresses given at the end of the catalogue. Standard price (ST) of a packet of at least 25 (unless otherwise indicated) seeds is: -to contributors listed in this catalogue, $1. -to all other, $2. For rare (CP, CO) seeds, plants, roots, etc. the price listed in the catalogue is the price to OTHER CONTRIBUTING GROWERS. To all others, the price is $1 more than the catalogue price. Overseas shipment add $1 per order for seeds. Overseas shipment of other items should be negotiated with the grower. To become a member of this Exchange or for further information, write: Joe Hollis PERMACULTURE SEED AND PLANT EXCHANGE 3020 Whiteoak Creek Road Burnsville, NC 28714 -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 20:24:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20180 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07786 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:19:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 40066 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <66911-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:55 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (port 53234 [156.46.73.3]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67158-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:18:06 -0400 Received: from 156.46.73.104 (ppp4.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.104]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA01655 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 19:16:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <343D20D4.3A63@mwt.net> Date: Thu, 09 Oct 1997 19:22:24 +0100 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Miekal And To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: comfrey tendencies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 For anyone in the know, I'm wondering about the extent of the invasive tendencies with comfrey in a zone 2-3 situation. I'd like to use it as living and cut mulch and have heard mention of people interspersing it all over in close to the dwelling forest gardens. am confident about safe use of it as a lower story in orchards. but i'd like to try it closer in, among our expanse of beds (annuals and perrenials) that were planted in a field of quack grass - to define the beds and pathways, and to start filling in against the quack and thistles. Anyone with helpful speculation about comfrey as a mulch plant or border definer in a water abundant zone 4 situation please respond. cheers hether -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 9 22:08:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA24286 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28895 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 44142 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <67741-9132>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:02:59 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net (port 49700 [204.71.76.243]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67715-9133>; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:00:23 -0400 Received: from Garland (s27-pm29.snwestsac.campus.mci.net [208.155.132.206]) by sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20015 for ; Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710100158.SAA20015@sac-d.mp.campus.mci.net> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 18:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 Hi Hether, Interesting timing on your post as just today I was cutting huge leaves of comfrey and masses of them... some steeping in olive oil as an ingredient for soap and the rest layering on the garden or into compost. I'm in a dry zone 3-4 and 3 years ago planted lots of root section cuttings on the outer edges of the vegetable garden to act as a foil for grasshoppers which didn't do much at all the 'year of the grasshoppers' and since, when just a few marauders come through, has done fairly well by attracting the hoppers first (they do seem to love and go for the comfrey). When I was living in the Pacific NW, comfrey would spread like crazy. With the moisture and mild climate there, it was difficult to eradicate once it began to take over. Here, where it is drier, it spreads less though the plants do get *gigantic*. I would allow PLENTY of space for them to spawl in all directions. It is this sprawling habit that would make for its excellence as a living mulch. I cut them back 3-4 times a growing season to use in compost or as a cut mulch material as well as soap ingredient. I would suggest you be pretty conservative in your use of it close into vegetable and flower beds or anywhere you are trying to establish delineated borders or pathways. Perhaps try just one or two first and see how they do in your particular environment. I would certainly use them sparingly in a hedge type of arrangement bordering beds..They would be creating shade and competing for space before you know it, especially since I just noticed you mentioned abundant water. Comfrey is great off on it's own sprawling to it's hearts content and not being expected to stay contained in anyway. Vicki From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 10 03:12:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06831 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA07721 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57339 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <68146-9134>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:29 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout09.mx.aol.com (port 2532 [198.81.11.24]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67065-9115>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:14 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id DAA23277 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971010030707_-394933125@emout09.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 03:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Terrakin@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mollison bashing X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 I personally like my teachers to be alittle on the human (i.e. erring ) side. it makes their level of knowledge seem more attainable. Heck, Jesus didn't necessarily choose well in the friendship department and Buddah definitely was no fungi expert. I figure Mr. Bill and company are behaving true to species. I see filtering through teachers, apostles, and seed catalogs without the benefit of an official designation , certificate, seal of approval ..... as a major part of the lesson. I want to make up my own mind..... permaculture may end up like Protestants..... with many denominations....It's diversity. many paths to God/Gaia/Perma... it'll get the job done, I hope. But I'm an optimist ( must be, I'm a fulltime musician!) As this old joke says....... with all this horse sh.....t there must be a pony in here somewhere! Hokahey! Kiya Heartwood On the post about perma - banking....... A community loan fund where four or five people get together as a circle and pool their resources to lend one member enough to buy 100 chicks say..... When the first person pays this back ... the next can borrow. Each circle decides who gets the money first and meets together for imput , advice, and support. I heard about it through the Lakota Loan Fund on Rosebud where most of the money was going to craft artists but I think the idea originated in India. It's a way to start small and get things done.... but requires trust and mutual support....What's that nice sentence about we will cooperate , not compete? I'm sure there's folks out there who have better details on this circle banking but it's brain food nonetheless. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 10 12:04:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25659 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18725 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 53956 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <154070-5030>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:58:40 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47989 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <68251-5028> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:57:29 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25590 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA08242 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Articles about windbreaks (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 Can anyone help this person regarding windbreaks? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:46:04 -0100 From: Luis Souto To: "'london@sunsite.unc.edu'" Subject: Articles about windbreaks Dear Sear: Searching in the web I found your adress. I'm interesting about windbreaks, and I would greatly appreciate receiving reprints about this subject. Best regards, Luis Souto My adress: Universidade dos Açores Dep. Ciancias Agrarias Ilha Terceira Azores-Azores From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 10 13:22:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28265 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13001 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 61280 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <154398-5029>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:16:39 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout08.mx.aol.com (port 3513 [198.81.11.23]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <154342-5029>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:07:13 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA18204 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971010130534_-1161089780@emout08.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 While the growing season is happening, comfrey can be cut back every few weeks to make excellent additions to your composting and mulching opportunities. It comes back every year and grows every more vigorously. Leaving some to flower also attracts nice samples of insects and some hummingbirds no less (don't ask me why). Probably more accurate would be to say that our resident rufus makes passes at it now and then. I've had good luck with it in New England, 4,500' altitude in Arizona and here. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 10 14:04:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28945 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25075 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 33676 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <154533-5032>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:59:13 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@jeter.acpub.duke.edu (port 43567 [152.3.233.10]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <154533-5032>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:55:57 -0400 Received: from cellbio.duke.edu (voice.cellbio.duke.edu [152.3.66.66]) by jeter.acpub.duke.edu (8.8.5/Duke-4.5.3) with SMTP id NAA18961; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <000001994592959336512@cellbio.duke.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:55:12 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: d.settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles, Dept. of Cell Biology DUMC) To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Erosion Control X-Sender: D.Settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles, Dept. of Cell Biology DUMC) X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.7 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 Sorry if you receive this twice. I'm attempting to post this message from a different account after having an e-mail problem. ----------------- I'd like to see if anyone would like to discuss erosion control. I bought a farm recently that has been used to grow tobacco, wheat, oats and soybeans. Some of the fields have a moderate slope and due to the nature of tobacco farming there is a problem with soil erosion. I was very concerned about this so I called my county soil conservation office and asked about what could be done. The state (NC) and federal government both have cost sharing money available to help stop soil erosion of farmland, but I'm not sure I like the methods that they have recommended. Their preferred method of controlling erosion seems to be to build waterways to slow down the water and move it away from the fields. The waterways are basically flat shallow channels seeded in perennial grasses that are designed to slow down the water as it runs out of the tilled fields. The eroding soil is then captured (partially) in these waterways and the excess water is channeled away from the fields and off into the woods. Typically, the waterways fill up with soil in 8-10 years and they come back in with heavy equipment, dig out the channels, put the soil back on the fields, and reseed the waterways. While this is better than doing nothing, it seems like a waste of effort, money, water, soil, etc. My long term goal is to drastically decrease the amount of annual crops planted, but for now I am trying to deal with the erosion problem. My knowledge and experience is rather limited, but I believe the permaculture approach to this would be quite different than what the government says I should do. My understanding is that a permaculture design would attempt to capture the water and hold it in the soil rather than diverting it from the fields. Does anyone have experience with using permaculture methods on farmland in a way that would satisfy the soil conservation agents? I have considered not using their suggestions at all, but it just occurred to me that I might have an opportunity here to get some permaculture design and waterway work done and get some of my tax money back to help pay for it. I˜d certainly appreciate any thoughts or experience about this. Dan Settles Oxford, NC From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 10 20:45:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09853 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24279 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 59827 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <154465-5032>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:40:23 -0400 Received: from root@[206.154.6.3] (port 4532 [206.154.6.3]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155101-5032>; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:39:53 -0400 Received: from 206.154.6.243 (pm1-20.primeline.com [206.154.6.243]) by primeline.primeline.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27149; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <343ED8A6.13E8@primeline.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: lbarnes@primeline.com Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Lee Barnes To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: PC seed exchange References: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 Jack Rowe wrote: > > Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the > permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two > years ago? > > Thanks, Jack Jack, The Permaculture Seed and Plant Exchange is florishing under the wizardry of Joe Hollis, 3020 Whiteoak Creek Road, Burnsville, NC 28714 USA (704)-675-5664. I consider this catalog to be the best existing reference and source list for useful perennials and self-seeding annuals or North America and northern temperate climates! Membership (1997) is $7/yr. Joe has his own list (Mountain Gardens) of available seed and plants for +/- 322 species. Spread the word! Happy Trails, Lee Barnes. Happy Trails Permaculture, PO Box 1303, Waynesville, NC 28786. (704)-452-5716. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 10 20:50:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09935 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA25361 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA05333; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:38:12 -0400 Received: from primeline.primeline.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA05066; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:34:17 -0400 Received: from 206.154.6.243 (pm1-20.primeline.com [206.154.6.243]) by primeline.primeline.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA27149; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 22:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <343ED8A6.13E8@primeline.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:38:47 -0500 Reply-To: lbarnes@primeline.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Lee Barnes To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: PC seed exchange References: <199710091315_MC2-235D-BF3@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 Jack Rowe wrote: > > Does anyone know the address (e- or snail-mail) or phone number of the > permaculture seed exchange which was operating in the US about one-two > years ago? > > Thanks, Jack Jack, The Permaculture Seed and Plant Exchange is florishing under the wizardry of Joe Hollis, 3020 Whiteoak Creek Road, Burnsville, NC 28714 USA (704)-675-5664. I consider this catalog to be the best existing reference and source list for useful perennials and self-seeding annuals or North America and northern temperate climates! Membership (1997) is $7/yr. Joe has his own list (Mountain Gardens) of available seed and plants for +/- 322 species. Spread the word! Happy Trails, Lee Barnes. Happy Trails Permaculture, PO Box 1303, Waynesville, NC 28786. (704)-452-5716. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 01:20:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA13497 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA26460 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 38076 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155372-5028>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:15:05 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 55082 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155383-5028>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:14:34 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA13481 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:19:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA12826 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 01:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Erosion Control In-Reply-To: <000001994592959336512@cellbio.duke.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Dan Settles, Dept. of Cell Biology DUMC wrote: > recommended. Their preferred method of controlling erosion seems to be > to build waterways to slow down the water and move it away from the > fields. The waterways are basically flat shallow channels seeded in > perennial grasses that are designed to slow down the water as it runs out > of the tilled fields. The eroding soil is then captured (partially) in > these waterways and the excess water is channeled away from the fields > and off into the woods. Typically, the waterways fill up with soil in You should probably build some sort of catchment area for the nutrient-rich water after it leaves silt and soil behind in swales planted in a variety of annual and perennial crops, legumes, trees and shrubs. The catchment area should be a capable of allowing you to develop aquaculture systems. Small gravity-fed watering holes or small ponds interconnected and at differing elevations would position irrigation water for use by different cropping systems along the way. Instead of planting the fields between swales with the usual grass & grain crops you could develop permanent turf there with a variety of native weeds and special perennial and legume crops. Useful self-seeding weeds such as ragweed, Carolina horse nettle (mineral mining), plantain, greater and lesser burdock, small-flowered daisy (Monarch butterflies), goldenrod (bees, paper wasps), milkweed (Monarch butterflies), lambs quarters, amaranth and wild millet would serve many purposes and not be hard to establish and maintain. Tall white and yellow sweet clover, comfrey, purslane, Jerusalem artichokes, red clover, alsike clover, lespedeza, alfalfa could be added as well. Annual ryegrass, winter rye, winter pea, crimson clover and vetch should be planted in early Fall for Winter and Spring cover and erosion control. All these crops would catch soil nutrients for later recycling mostly in situ, water runoff would end up on the swales or in the catchment ponds. You could easily turn this turf into production beds, orchards or row crop gardens at any time. The weed seed bank developed after years of growing the above plants should not be difficult to work with. Crab, Johnson or Bermuda grass, thorny pigweed and a few other annual weed plants will, if allowed to spread in your turf, be difficult to eradicate and cause lots of problems. I have had serious problems with soil erosion and nutrient leaching from excessive runoff and have begun to implement some of these solutions around my property. I now lose almost no topsoil and fields of diverse weeds, swales and small catchments areas hold and recycle valuable nutrients. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 10:57:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26850 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19514 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 48571 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155634-9824>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:52:00 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout12.mx.aol.com (port 4290 [198.81.11.38]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155633-9822>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:51:44 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA02837 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971011105056_-1831424465@emout12.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 10:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Organizing, Nationally, Bioregionally, as Design Course Teachers, etc. X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 In a message dated 10/9/97 2:35:11 PM, you wrote: >I'd give a lot to live next door to lots of you folks who snarl and rant on >this list Seems like it would be great fun and good learning, too. Milo: how much is a lot? It can be arranged. :-) For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 11:09:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27053 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23913 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 49035 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155646-9822>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:55 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout03.mx.aol.com (port 1179 [198.81.11.94]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155643-9823>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:40 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA29923; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971011110425_615330354@emout03.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: dtv@mwt.net, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 In a message dated 10/10/97 5:06:37 AM, dtv@mwt.net (Miekal And) wrote: >For anyone in the know, > >I'm wondering about the extent of the invasive tendencies with comfrey >in a zone 2-3 situation. I'd like to use it as living and cut mulch and >have heard mention of people interspersing it all over in close to the >dwelling forest gardens. am confident about safe use of it as a lower >story in orchards. but i'd like to try it closer in, among our expanse >of beds (annuals and perrenials) that were planted in a field of quack >grass - to define the beds and pathways, and to start filling in >against the quack and thistles. >Anyone with helpful speculation about comfrey as a mulch plant or border >definer in a water abundant zone 4 situation please respond. > >cheers > >hether Comfrey is not invasive unless you rototill it. In that case you will ge a zillion little comfrey plant as each root piece develops leaves and makes a new clone. To limit or eliminate comfrey, use sheet mulch--probably something that persists a while. In zone 2-3, the cool climate sufficies to make even a few layers of cardboard adequate for that. Where I live, now, in Florida, cardboard goes quickly and so we need to replace it promptly or use something like rugs (mostly made of synthetics nowadays) to temporaily mulch out the area until the comfrey gives up the ghost. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 11:40:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27507 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29977 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 49950 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155658-9824>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:35:15 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout07.mx.aol.com (port 4875 [198.81.11.22]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67803-9810>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:35:00 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA24076; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971011113445_590301625@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: Milogic@aol.com, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Woody Legumes and Swales X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 A while back someone asked about broadcasting woody legumes into swales, specificially, as I recall, about species recommendations. I passed at the time, but since no good response came through (or I missed it), I'll try to shed some light on considerations. First, most woody legumes require some sort of pregermination treatment to germinate. Just throwing the seed around may not sufficie. Seeds of Woody Plants... from GPO covers most of the commonly grown leguminous (and other) trees in the US and is a basic reference for any North American permaculturist. Also local arboreta may well have data. I've never seen this published, but sometimes peregermination treatments can be avoided by planting fresh seed before it fully dries. Of course if it then dries in the swale, you are back to needing the treatment. I've seen this work a few time and have heard propagation experts at the Arnold Arboretum (Harvard's arboretum) mention this. Finally, I am skeptical that IN the swale is the best place for most woody legumes which, as a group, tend to like drought but not flooding. There are minor species of Robinia, including some native to Texas if my aging memory is not playing tricks on me again today, that are water loving. Even R. psuedoacacia, though it likes well drained soil, tolerates a bit of flooding. However if you look at its location on river banks, it is always on the outside of the bend where the bank is high and steep, not on the interior of the curve, low and gradual slope, where the willows grow and further back the populus spp. There is also a gleditisia aquatica that, as one would surmise, likes wet or at least tolerates it. However there is some serious question about whether gletisia fixes N. Interestingly, I've seen alnus spp, the same as grow in swamps, in places where water supply is very minimal. They are great N fixers and might be a better choice for inside the swale. They are soft wooded and can easily be slashed for coarse, n-rich mulch. The jujube genus (ziziphus or something like that) also is drought tolerant And flood tolerant, can produce thorny branches quite useful in fencing (a chicken wire tree) and of course has tasty fruit. I think these would be happy in the area mentioned, though it really depends on the frequency with which the swales are flooded. Mostly, I'd consider planting the legumes on the berm, not in the swale. This will be my last detailed response to this list for several months as our onlin e permaculture design course starts tomorrow and I will give it all the online attention possible. If anyone is interested in a permaculture training in Paraguay in Sept/Oct, 1998, they should email me privately. Have fun, guys. I'll be lurking. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 11:57:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27706 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03923 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 51783 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155697-9822>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:51:31 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout09.mx.aol.com (port 3888 [198.81.11.24]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <67791-9824>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:50:30 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA06676; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971011115018_1688752957@emout09.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: EFMonaco@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Course Content (very long) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 I have seen some email on this list and had some private email that indicates that some basic materials, such as the non-competition ethic, ability to deal with multiple ecosystems, etc., are not covered in many courses. In the 16-1/2 years since I took a course with Bill, we have had many student feedback sessions and ample opportunity to judge course effectiveness on the basis of design project results. I am going to give the full outline of our 20-26 week online course below, to show the topics covered. Ethics are covered in print, in the required reading, and again and again during the course. We require two sessions of student teaching practice and report back during the online course and at least one in the live course, two if we can squeeze a second into the busy three-week schedule. All our certificate students are required to participate in a design project and, rarely, we do not issue a certificate if we feel the work in not up to beginning standards--ours as these are the only ones I know about. Moreover, in our publications we have made major efforts, successfully, to plug many of the information holes in the published permaculture literature. This is very important--information needs to be pulled together and made accessible and clear. This is our contribution to the massive body of work available from Mollison et al that got us started. Finally, we have been working on a seemingly neglected area of permaculature, principles of transformation. It is no good to have a design if you don't know how to get there from where you are. Staging is important and needs to be stressed--but what are the principles of staging (transformation)? We are a few years from publishing on this--turns out to be much more involved than stating the 8 priniciples of design. Our online course outline is below. It is offered in lieu of further discussion on my part as I have already indicated I am other wise occupied for a while. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. `e24 ELFIN PERMACULTURE P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478-2052 USA Last Updated: 1/11/97 EMAIL PERMACULTURE DESIGN COURSE Reading assignments shown here may be superseded by specific assignment sheets issued before and during the course. This schedule is simply to enable you to do some advanced reading. Items marked with an asterisk are included in required reading list. In sending email about the course content, please put the course week and topic in the subject field plus the specific them of your comments. For example, if you have a comment about our emphasis on teaching rather than consulting in our courses, you could address it as follows in the Subject Field: Week 1: Style, schedule, intent ..., Consulting by Design Course Graduates In that way, we can file your comments exactly where they belong. Your comments to the course are automatically copyrighted by US copyright law and probably by the laws of other countries. (There has been strong movement toward uniformity of these laws in recent decades.) We would like to be able to share your comments with students in subsequent courses. To do this, we need either a) a blanket statement that we canuse your comments in this way or b) a statement on specific comments that you will allow to be used in this way. WE WILL NOT ASK FOR A WAIVER OF COPYRIGHT unless we wish to publish your comments in some other way. If you do not voluntarily waive copyright, we assume that you do not want your comments shared beyond the course. It is possible that we will wish to publish your design, or portions of it, as a resource from our special order list. In that case, we will approach you for permission. WEEK 1 Introduction/Bad News # Introductions--Send your personal statement to everyone. # Style, schedule, intent, and content of course # Overview of permaculture Bad News - Water Soil Air Climate Forests Good News - Permaculture # Feedback and questions Reading for Week 1: *"The Fate of Our Forests, A Time to Choose" by Dan Hemenway, TIPSY #4. *"Permaculture Design: A Warning, a Vision, a Gift" by Dan Hemenway, TIPSY #3. *"Solar Age or Ice Age?" by Don Weaver, TIPSY #4. *"A Green World Instead of the Green House" by James Duke, TIPSY #3. *"Climate & Ozone: The Stratospheric Link" by John Gribbin, TIPS I, 3. *"Politics and Genetic Resources," by Cary Fowler, TIPSY #3. *Permaculture Design Course Pamphlet I by Bill Mollison *Permaculture Design Course Handbook (pg. 1) *The Man Who Planted Hope and Grew Happiness (A mythical account.) by Jean Giono. State of the World (Current & past editions), WorldWatch Inst. [ Global 2000 Report Robin (Volumes IV-XI) Survival of Civilization, by John Hamaker & Don Weaver "Farm Debt" by Wes Jackson TIPSY #4. Rights to Our Genetic Resources by Sahabat Alam Malaysia. WEEK 2 Basic Principles # Feedback and questions # Entropy # Principles of natural design # Mollison's design principles (Handbook, pp. 1-3) # Succession Reading for Week 2: *"Living Lovingly on the Earth" by Dan Hemenway, TIPSY #2 (pg. 9 ff.) Entropy by Jeremy Rifkin (Viking Press) *Permaculture Designer's Handbook by Bill Mollison (Chapters 1 and 2) *"Forests: Green Gifts from Gaia" by Bill Mollison. TIPSY #3 (pg. 22 ff.) *"Traditional Practices of Farmers," Sahabat Alam Malaysia, TIPS I, 1. *Introduction to Permaculture by Bill Mollison (Chapt. 1-3). WEEK 3 Permaculture Design Basics # Feedback and questions # Permaculture design (Handbook, pp. 2-3) + Design examples (instructor's option) Reading for Week 3: *Permaculture Design Course Pamphlet VIII *Permaculture Designers' Manual (Chapter 3) Ocean Arks and City Farms Week 4: Idealized Landscapes # Feedback and questions # Humid landscapes Keyline Arid landscapes Other landscapes YPC Pamphlet #10, Erosion: Principles & Management by John Farghar YPC Pamphlet #11, Arid Lands Water Harvesting by John Farghar # Feedback and questions Reading for Week 4 *Permaculture Design Course Handbook (pp. 5-8) *Water for Every Farm by P.A. Yeomans *Permaculture Design Course Pamphlets II, III, IV, V, and VI *Permaculture Designers' Manual (Chapters 10-12) Week 5 Patterning/Edges/The Permaculture Design Report # Feedback and questions # Edges, edge effects, edge harmonics # Client Interviews # Overview: The permaculture design report Reading for Week 5: *Permaculture Design Course Pamphlets VII and IX *Permaculture Designers' Manual (Chapter 4) *Patterning (PDC Handbook, pg. 4 Week 6: Feedback, Catch-up, Review, Field Work # Feedback and questions # Principles of transformation, presentation by instructor of a study in progress. # Principles of transformation, discussion by class # Field work and report. You should have completed your client interview and a preliminary field visit of your design site. A progress report will be assigned. Week 7 Work on your design. # Pursue student questions or themes special to this course. # Students do more field work and research for their design report. Summarize what you have done on your design so far less than 500 words, including questions, problems to be solved, etc. Reading for Week 7: *"The Plitics of Diversity" by Vandana Shiva * How to Live - Free at Last by Pat ffyske Howden YOU HAVE NOW COMPLETED THE FIRST SEGMENT OF THE COURSE. THIS HAS BEEN AN INTRODUCTION TO NATURAL DESIGN PRINCIPLES AND CONSIDERATIONS. IN THE NEXT SEGMENT OF THE COURSE WE WILL LOOK AT TECHNIQUES, STRATEGIES, AND THEMES that may be included in a Permaculture Design. A major purpose of the following segment of the course is to exemplify the applicability of the design principles. Another purpose is to make you aware that bodies of information exist which you can study in detail when appropriate for a given design. Week 8 ENERGY # Feedback and questions # Conservation and edge: Solar and conservation vocabulary and concepts. # Biomass # Wind power, wind breaks, natural cooling, & water power Reading for Week 8: (The field of energy has a good many useful books. We list just a few resources here.) *Energy Paper #1, by Bill Mollison (YPC Paper 13 - North America edition) *Energy Paper #2, by Bill Mollison (YPC Paper 14) Permaculture I (pg. 41 ff. - Windbreaks) Methane Generation from Human, Animal and Agricultural Wastes (NAS) Energy for Rural Development & Supplement (NAS) The Methods of Jean Pain (Difficult to read) The Solar Greenhouse Book (McCullagh) The Passive Soar Energy Book (Mazria) *Low Cost Passive Solar Greenhouses by National Center for Appropriate Technology *Permaculture Designers' Manual (Chapter 5) Week 9 NUTRIENT CYCLES-A-SOILS # Feedback and questions # Soils (Handbook, pp. 6-7) # Soil treatments # Soil shaping # Shaping time as a dimension of soil # Hybrid systems - Fukuoka # Keyline cultivation Reading for Week 9: *TIPS I, 3. Special soils issue. Very important. *Water for Every Farm and the Keyline Method How to Grow More Food Than You Thought Possible... by John Jeavons The One Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka Any of Ruth Stout's books from Rodale *Designers Manual (Chapters 5 & 6) Worms Eat My Garbage, by Mary Applehof "Information for Using Gesteinsmehl" translated by Christian Campe, TIPS I, 1. Guidelines for Development Agents on Soil Conservation in Ethiopia, Ethiopian Soil Conservation Research Project. *Erosion: Principles and Management, Yankee PC Paper 10, by John Fargher. Gardening Articles, Yankee PC Paper 16, reprints, Dan Hemenway Articles about Soil, Yankee PC Paper 30, reprints, Dan Hemenway *Circle Gardens, by Richard Webb & Dan Hemenway. Yankee PC Paper 20. *Introduction to Permaculture, Chapt. 5. WEEK 10: NUTRIENT CYCLES - B- Microclimate/Composting Toilets/Seed Saving/Biological Pest Control # Feedback and questions # Microclimate; Phenology # Perennial gardening, self-sowing, tree crops, food parks # Composting toilets # Livestock # Seed saving, food storage # Biological pest control Reading for Week 10: *PDC Handbook (pp. 14-16) The Onions, by Mollison (Yankee PC Paper 1) *"The Massachusetts Fruition Program," by Judy Heiman and "Proposed Criteria for Evaluating Plants Suitable for Fruition Projects" by Dan Hemenway, both in TIPSY #1. *"A Fruition Guide to Design, TIPSY #2. *"A Plea for Phenology," by James Duke, TIPS I, 1. *Composting Human Wastes, by Dan Hemenway & David Stephens, Yankee PC Paper 17. *"Diversity among Plants," by Dan Hemenway, TIPSY #1. "Genetic Design for Permaculture Systems," by Eric van Lennep, TIPSY #2. "Collecting Tree & Shrub Seed," by Michael Pilarski, TIPSY #2. "Indecks Cards: An Effective Alternative to Computers for Permaculture Species Selection," by Earle Barnhart, TIPSY #2. "Collecting Tree and Shrub Seed - Part II" by Michael Pilarski, TIPSY #3. Seed to Seed by Susan Ashworth (Seed Savers Exchange). (See also SSE reference volumes on available varieties of garden seed, fruit and nut plants, etc.) For reference: Cornucopia: A Source Book of Edible Plants by Stephen Facciola. *Rights to Our Genetic Resources by Sahabat Alam Malaysia. *"Humanity at the Crossroads of Biotechnology" by Asia-Pacific People's Network, TIPS I, 2. *"Standards vs. Hybrids," by Rob Johnston, TIPS I, 2. "Annuals and Perennials in the Permaculture Scenario," by James Duke, TIPS I, 2. Horticultural Management of Solar Greenhouses, by Klin For reference: Dictionary of Cultivated Plants & Their Regions of Diversity For reference: Plant Propagation, by Hartmann & Kester The Future is Abundant (TILTH, out of print) "One Man's Search for Biological Control of Poison Ivy," by James Duke. TIPSY #3. *"An Integrated Pest Control System for a Rice Paddy," by Lonna Nachtigal & Dan Hemenway, TIPS I, 1. WEEK 11: NUTRIENT CYCLES C-Cultivated Systems/Forests # Feedback and questions # Cultivated systems including edible landscapes. # Tropical reforestation/agroforestry Reading for Week 11: * Forests (Handbook, pp. 11-12) * PDC Pamphlet VII & X *"Forests: Green Gifts from Gaia" by Bill Mollison, TIPSY #3. *Designing and Maintaining Your Edible Landscape Naturally, by Robert Kourik *Designers Manual (Chapter 6) Tree Crops, by J. Russell Smith The Book of Bamboo, by Farrelly Plants for Use in Permaculture in the Tropics by Frank Martin, Yankee PC Paper 31. See other articles in TIPS and TIPSY including materials on oaks, chestnut blight, and specific tree crops, particularly in TIPSY 3. WEEK 12: Design for Catastrophe # Feedback and questions # Discuss individual design projects. Reading for Week 12: * Design for catastrophe (Handbook, pp. 8-9) Design Client Survey (Paper 21) *Permaculture for Fire Control by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet V. WEEK 13: Teaching Permaculture # Feedback and questions # Teaching permaculture, discuss experiences. WEEK 14 DISCUSS DESIGN PROJECT PROGRESS. Submit a report of up to 1,000 words indicating your progress, problems, questions, and plans. The design aspect of this course is now getting into high gear. WEEK 15: WATER # Feedback and questions # Water - Aquaculture, Mariculture, etc. - Discuss design project water treatments. Reading for Week 15: - * Impoundments (Handbook, pp. 12-14) *PDC Pamphlet XI *Water for Every Farm *Permaculture Designers' Manual (Chapter 13) Ponds--Planning, Design, Construction (SCS) Rain Catchment and Water Supply in Rural Africa More Water for Arid Lands (NAS) The Freshwater Aquaculture Book by Bill McLarney. *TIPSY #4 (Wet environments issue) *Useful Plants of Wetlands by Bill Mollison, Yankee PC Paper #6. "The Farmed Wetland Alternative: Crawfish and Bald Cypress" by Michael Miltner, TIPS I, 1. "T. O. Warren on Mayhaws," TIPS I,3. *"Chinampa Agriculture in the Valley of Mexico: Coevolution of Technology and Ecology," by Bill McLarney. TIPS I, 3. WEEK 16: Buildings # Feedback and questions # Student presentations on building experience # Students present design questions and problems Reading for Week 16: . *Buildings (Handbook, pp 9-10) All of the Ken Kern books Cordwood construction books by Rob Roy and Jack Henstridge *Permaculture Technique, by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet IX . *Outlines for Permaculture Village Development, by Bill Mollison *Introduction to Permaculture by Bill Mollison, Chapt. 4. You have now completed the second segment of the course. By now, you should have a clear idea of what constitutes a Permaculture Design and be well along on your own design project for the course. Week 17: Review/Design Work This week is set aside for reviewing any areas where students still feel weak and for discussing design issues in the student design projects. Reading for Week 17: *PDC Pamphlets VIII and IX WEEK 18: Invisible Structures # Feedback and questions # Urban Permaculture # Bioregionalism # Alternative Economics (Deadline to register for a course certificate. If you do not have a form, please ask for one. If you miss this deadline, you do not get a certificate.) Reading for Week 18: Robin (Early issues.) The Integral Urban House *Bioregional Organization, by Bill Mollison, Yankee PC Paper 8 *Introduction to Permaculture, Chapt. 8. *Permaculture Designers' Manual Chapt 14. *Permaculture for Urban Areas & Urban-Rural Linkages by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet XII. *The Permaculture Community by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet XIII. *The Permaculture Alternative by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet XIV. *Permaculture for Millionaires, by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet XV. *TIPSY #1 and TIPSY #2, Urban Permaculture Sections. *"Ethics, Environment and Economics -- A Bioregional Perspective" by Dan Hemenway, TIPS I, 1. *Kudzu Utilization Concept Paper, by Dan Hemenway, Yankee PC Paper 34. YPC Pamphlet #15: Outlines for Permaculture Village Development by Bill Mollison. WEEK 19: Students Deliver Their Permaculture Design Report # Feedback and questions # Design reports Reading for Week 19: *Designing for Permaculture by Bill Mollison, PDC Pamphlet VIII. WEEK 20: What Next? Evaluation. # Final questions # Role of Permaculture Trainees # Students individually discuss commitments, networking, plans, etc. # Evaluation A completed course evaluation is a requirement for certification . Please add comments on areas not covered by the evaluation as well. Monitors are welcome to submit evaluations. Evaluations are important stimulii to the evolution of the Elfin Permaculture Design Course. # Teaching permaculture-- Q & A Course ends Basic References to Use in the Months and Years Following the Course TRIP-The Resources of International Permaculture, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, Eds. (A directory of thousands of groups working on issues related to aspects of permaculture. Paper or disk.) The Permaculture Resource Directory, by Richard Webb. A comprehensive listing of reference material for teaching and practicing permaculture. For additional books, check the book review sections of TIPSYs and TIPS for descriptions of hundreds more useful publications. Yankee Permaculture Paper #27, Special Order List, offers dozens of designs, reports, translations, offprints, etc., on a special order basis. Elfin Permaculture Press List, Yankee PC Paper #23. Lists hundreds of publications of interest to, and potentially interested in, Permaculture. Available on disk and as special order print out. TRIP is a better primary source, though this list includes many publications not on TRIP. Permaculture journals and newsletters in various countries carry announcements of courses and sometimes offer lists of national or regional graduates. See TRIP for a list of these publications. Elfin Permaculture Supplier List (PSL), hundreds of suppliers of seeds, plants, tools, shelter, water, alternative energy, energy conservation, and other products for living lightly and deliberately. Availabe on disk and as special order print out. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 11 12:00:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27785 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 12:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04625 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 52166 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155664-9824>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:55:07 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout19.mx.aol.com (port 2396 [198.81.11.45]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155664-9810>; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:54:20 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA15408; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971011115413_-2046724802@emout19.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: askpv@ozemail.com.au, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Applications [strip crops] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 In a message dated 10/9/97 9:33:52 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April Sampson-Kelly) wrote: >The difference between strip farming with poultry free range in between the >strips >and actually using tractors- is the concentration of birds on the soil, >this concentration can quickly denude an >area which is open to weed seed or your seed. >This is desirable for intensive beds but may be a unnecessary for large >scale farming. >When I use the chickens in a small concentration here I am left with woody >plants and sedges and a mix of less tasty plants (tasty for hens) but there >is a wider control of pests such as insects, caterpillars, slugs and >snails. >For orchard maintenance you could use 100 birds to the acre [Mollison] it >all depends on how much understorey or ground cover >there is for the birds to eat. >The greatest risk is soil loss and permaculture is about upmost soil and >water conservation. > >I would consider the options with the least amount of management and energy >for you, the farmer. > > >Permaculture is really about observation and confidence in trying things, >Why not divide the birds up into a couple of test runs, >and find what really works for you, then hopefully you'll be kind to share >it with us. This is very similar to what I do with poultry. The 100 birds per acre thing is obviously questionable--breed, climate, soil, and vegetation type all are factors that can raise or lower the threshold. Morever, a much smaller concetration of birds will denude the area around the water supply and the coop. I always put water supply under a favored tree and the area around the coop gate is a good place to grow Opuntia spp for nopalis. When we use chickens FOR defoliation of an area, we continually add mulch, first because it protects the soil and second, because it attractes invertebrates that chickens then eat. And you have mulch ready to plant through. It needs to be said, though maybe it is obvious, that when poultry are used to defoliate they need supplemental feed. I'm intereasted on hexagonal arrays for poultry forage with the coop and the permanent deep mulch in the center hexagon and the foraging limited to one of the adjacent hexagons (there are six more). The outer permieter can be circular to save a few percent on fencing. Seven forage areas give plenty of time for an area to recover. Yet if, say an insect infestation crops up, they can be let into any one forage area, immediately, without moving anything. In my view this system is not suitable for steep ground. We are seriously considering it for very lightly contoured land here where some areas get flooded from time to time. These would be in chicken-fallow. There is no reason not to grow grain for chickens in the forages when chickens are out, or other crops and agroforestry naturally fits in. My chickens really don't like to come out from under the trees and I have wasted grain trying to entice them into certain open areas to break up bovine manure pats for fly control. They just left the grain there, much to the delight of the cardinals and other wild birds. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sun Oct 12 11:07:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08537 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28764 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 50335 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156241-8721>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:02:42 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout11.mx.aol.com (port 3555 [198.81.11.26]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156241-8719>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:02:27 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA02511; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971012105910_58483660@emout11.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 10:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, hemencb.ufcon@shands.ufl.edu, dana@pacbell.net, ElfinPDC1@aol.com, willems@iafrica.com Cc: meinersb@magpage.com Subject: Permaculture Ethics X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 The following is pasted from page on of Permaculture Design Course Pamphlet VIII (Mollison), Designing for Permaculture, placed in public domain by Yankee Permaculture. It may also be found on page 1, PROD (Permaculture Review, Overview and Digest), Vol. 1, No. 1. PROFESSIONAL PERMACULTURE DESIGNERS' ETHICS 1. As a group of designers, we cooperate; we do not compete. 2. We do not duplicate each other's work. As far as possible, we create and use individual designs. 3. We care for our clients and are responsible to them. 4. The end to which we are working is the reforestation of the Earth and the restoration of its soils to health. 5. We care for the environment and wildlife. In all our design work, we side with that "super client," Gaia, which is an old Greek word for the Mother Earth Goddess. Earth was conceived of then as a living, thinking organism, a biological entity. 6. We seek the best, the most appropriate energy paths, utilizing appropriate energy. 7. We recycle at the highest level possible. Everything can be a resource. You must know how to use it. Use what you have. Try to make the least change produce the most effect. 8. A final ethic, which we practice in our community in Tasmania, is that we divest ourselves of everything surplus to our needs. But we don't ask you to do that. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sun Oct 12 11:31:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09393 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04300 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 50838 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156205-8720>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:26:30 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-8.compuserve.com (port 3073 [149.174.206.138]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156205-8718> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:26:00 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id LAA18535 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710121125_MC2-23A3-8686@compuserve.com> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 11:25:30 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: Pc listserve Subject: The Permaculture Institute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Dan, It's interesting to hear some feedback about the Permaculture Institute set up by Scott and Bill. My hunch is that they felt there was a need for a national permaculture group, not to call the shots but rather to provide information and help coordinate projects. My wife, Inger, is the one they hired to incorporate the institute and obtain non-profit status so we can tell you something about the way it's set up. BTW, the Permaculture Institute just received 501(c)3 status a couple of weeks ago. The following information is public. The board is made up of Scott Pittman - President, Bill Mollison - Vice President, Francis Huxley - Secretary / Treasurer. Its mission is: to create, coordinate, further and fund endeavors that will directly or indirectly aid in the establishment of ecologically and economically sustainable agricultural and social systems, including but not limited to the implementation of educational programs. Do you think there should be a national permaculture organization? There could even be several of them. Just because someone makes an organization national in scope doesn't mean that it's the only one that can exist. KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 00:39:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA12915 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA14295 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 55490 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156298-8721>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:34:33 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@marine.sonic.net (port 1689 [208.201.224.37]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156305-8719>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 00:33:45 -0400 Received: (qmail 13833 invoked from network); 13 Oct 1997 04:37:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 13 Oct 1997 04:37:47 -0000 Received: from default (d204.pm13.sonic.net [208.201.230.204]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09884 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:33:37 -0700 Message-Id: <34419EB2.16CC@sonic.net> Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 21:08:19 -0700 Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Keith Johnson To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies References: <971011110425_615330354@emout03.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-envelope-info: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 YankeePerm@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 10/10/97 5:06:37 AM, dtv@mwt.net (Miekal And) wrote: > > >For anyone in the know, > > > >I'm wondering about the extent of the invasive tendencies with comfrey > >in a zone 2-3 situation. I'd like to use it as living and cut mulch and > >have heard mention of people interspersing it all over in close to the > >dwelling forest gardens. am confident about safe use of it as a lower > >story in orchards. but i'd like to try it closer in, among our expanse > >of beds (annuals and perennials) that were planted in a field of quack > >grass - to define the beds and pathways, and to start filling in > >against the quack and thistles. > >Anyone with helpful speculation about comfrey as a mulch plant or border > >definer in a water abundant zone 4 situation please respond. > > > >cheers > > > >hether > > Comfrey is not invasive unless you rototill it. In that case you will ge a > zillion little comfrey plant as each root piece develops leaves and makes a > new clone. > > YankeePerm@aol.com Hi,Just a note to those of you reading this in areas with gophers. Here in California, comfrey roots are also eaten by the gophers who will harvest 100's of short root pieces and then stash them in little pockets which then sprout into a jungle of comfrey. Whether this happens with any other rodents, I don't know, but I do know that gophers will also store Bermuda grass with the same results. This hasn't stopped us from growing comfrey, but if we don't harvest the tops regularly, the rest of the garden can disappear in it. Keith keithdj@sonic.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 11:34:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10057 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18561 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 53360 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156532-26830>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:28:35 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout37.mx.aol.com (port 3462 [198.81.11.29]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156427-26830>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:07:15 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout37.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA26519 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971013110311_1177517785@emout06.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Rebbry@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Kirby, did I ever e-mail you back to let you know that I couldn't read the attachment you sent about Cross Timbers. Alas. But I am going to be in Austin for the Green Building Conference--matter of fact, Ozark CoHousing did an entry for the design competition--and wondered if your show will be on the tour. Maybe we could make a plan to meet. Rebecca Bryant From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 12:36:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12108 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21728 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 55289 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156219-26831>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:41:06 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@arl-img-6.compuserve.com (port 1723 [149.174.217.136]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156466-26813> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:38:00 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id LAA07051; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710131137_MC2-23BE-6692@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Hold your breath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 There’s a big fuss -- rightly -- finally -- about a rocket to go up soon with 72 pounds of plutonium on board... about the 200th such usually-military payload in orbit... orbit is NOT stable or a static situation, it is slow FREEFALL while travelling sideways really-fast. ALL orbits "decay" or slowly run out of energy... the satellites -- ALL OF THEM -- WILL return to earth unless we go back and physically collect each of them (do we know where they all are? Sure, SURE, we do... the check is in the mail). On reentry the plutonium (10K-yr half-life) in these satellites will be turned to fine ash and spread by the jet streams in a streak that, as with Chernobyl's bad breath, will circle the globe about 3 times before coming to rest on our gardens. The quantities of plutonium involved will make many of the less-radioative elements spread by Chernobyl (strontium, thorium, iodine... evil stuff) look like vitamins! Unless we go retrieve ALL such satellites, this WILL happen -- many, many times. So how was this fact treated on the television news? The “reporters” (sorry, Mr. Webster) were interviewing the Mayor of Cape Canaveral! Hiz'onor's problem seems to be that the rocket may blow up, droppong the plutonium in a single, coherent blob into his nearby ocean, to join the fair number of nuclear reactors and other radioactive materials already resting on the ocean floor in the form of sunken subs and dumped waste (“safely” contained, of course, in containers whose half-life WISHED it approached 10K). The mayor is in as safe a place as any of the rest of us... even if the rocket immediately reentered and burned to ash over his town, the jet streams would carry the plutonium ash AWAY from him. He’d likely be in one of the safest places to sit, right on the upwind side of the tail of “eternal” (close enough) destruction. So the anchor person (so called because of his apparent mental resemblance to a dead weight) asked the mayor of Cape Canaveral if he were letting his family stay in town during the lift-off... yeah, right... a better question... “Do you plan to allow your family to stay here on the planet during the next century?”... “No, John, we’re moving to Mars as soon as the condo is finished.” Good, glad to be rid of them. Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian Western “Civilization” from myself... Reporter to Ghandi, “What are your feelings regarding Western Civilization?”; Ghandi to Reporter “I think it would be a great idea.” From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Mon Oct 13 12:36:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12168 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA23697 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA10539; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:41:22 -0400 Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com by envirolink.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA09395; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:32:11 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id LAA07051; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710131137_MC2-23BE-6692@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Hold your breath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id MAA12168 Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 There’s a big fuss -- rightly -- finally -- about a rocket to go up soon with 72 pounds of plutonium on board... about the 200th such usually-military payload in orbit... orbit is NOT stable or a static situation, it is slow FREEFALL while travelling sideways really-fast. ALL orbits "decay" or slowly run out of energy... the satellites -- ALL OF THEM -- WILL return to earth unless we go back and physically collect each of them (do we know where they all are? Sure, SURE, we do... the check is in the mail). On reentry the plutonium (10K-yr half-life) in these satellites will be turned to fine ash and spread by the jet streams in a streak that, as with Chernobyl's bad breath, will circle the globe about 3 times before coming to rest on our gardens. The quantities of plutonium involved will make many of the less-radioative elements spread by Chernobyl (strontium, thorium, iodine... evil stuff) look like vitamins! Unless we go retrieve ALL such satellites, this WILL happen -- many, many times. So how was this fact treated on the television news? The “reporters” (sorry, Mr. Webster) were interviewing the Mayor of Cape Canaveral! Hiz'onor's problem seems to be that the rocket may blow up, droppong the plutonium in a single, coherent blob into his nearby ocean, to join the fair number of nuclear reactors and other radioactive materials already resting on the ocean floor in the form of sunken subs and dumped waste (“safely” contained, of course, in containers whose half-life WISHED it approached 10K). The mayor is in as safe a place as any of the rest of us... even if the rocket immediately reentered and burned to ash over his town, the jet streams would carry the plutonium ash AWAY from him. He’d likely be in one of the safest places to sit, right on the upwind side of the tail of “eternal” (close enough) destruction. So the anchor person (so called because of his apparent mental resemblance to a dead weight) asked the mayor of Cape Canaveral if he were letting his family stay in town during the lift-off... yeah, right... a better question... “Do you plan to allow your family to stay here on the planet during the next century?”... “No, John, we’re moving to Mars as soon as the condo is finished.” Good, glad to be rid of them. Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian Western “Civilization” from myself... Reporter to Ghandi, “What are your feelings regarding Western Civilization?”; Ghandi to Reporter “I think it would be a great idea.” From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 12:38:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12213 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06336 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:33:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 59908 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155107-26813>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:32:16 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout02.mx.aol.com (port 3453 [198.81.11.93]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155322-26831>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:31:25 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA18794 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971013122916_-1697092295@emout02.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 In a message dated 10/12/97 11:27:06 AM, you wrote: >Dan, > >It's interesting to hear some feedback about the Permaculture Institute set >up by Scott and Bill. My hunch is that they felt there was a need for a >national permaculture group, not to call the shots but rather to provide >information and help coordinate projects. > [snip} >Do you think there should be a national permaculture organization? There >could even be several of them. Just because someone makes an organization >national in scope doesn't mean that it's the only one that can exist. > > KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; >512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] I'm going to pass on the issue of whether or not Bill and Scott would want to control North American permaculture. This is a personality issue, and not appropriate for a public debate unless some truely awful things are done. I'm sure some altruistic reasons are generally part of the overall motivation. The fact is that the first step for the group was to promote an Australian permaculturist, not American teachers. (This has been the pattern with most of the North American Institutes Bill established, so I can't really see thinking that it was just to launch the institute.) Giving certificates to a group of 125 smacks something like the loaves and fishes story. It is hard to see how Bill evaluated the qualifications of these individuals before issuing certificates. So we have an institute that promotes zero standards for certification. How useful to North American permaculture! With 2,500 people reportedly having taken certificate permaculture courses in North America, it would seem that there is a body of people to consult. Permaculture is based on emulating the efficient ways of Nature. Nature uses anarchistic designs, not hierachical designs. The very structure of a 501(c)3 violates permaculture. Maybe one is useful--I'll grant that, and I'll grant that purity never, to my knowledge, occurs in Nature. However there are better ways to short circuit hierachical (and patriachical) structures than having two men who are promoted by the "National" organization, appoint themselves to the board, and then a woman who does the organizational work of secretary/treasurer. Probably I miss some subtlety here. Until someone shows me the light, I guess this is the way I see it. I don't doubt that Bill also wants permaculture to prosper in North America. But his design is bad in this case. He isn't using the principles he taught to me and many, many others. I hadn't considered the latest incarnation of what started out as NAP (North American Permaculture) many years back as relevant enough to have an opinion on until I was denied access to my own work on the permaculture directory. Four people (and maybe some unsung others behind the scenes) have contributed to the directory, whose long-awaited next edition seems to be in some weird limbo. (It would take about two weeks to get it out.) Guy Baldwin originated the directory in the 1980s. At that time I probably was doing most of the permaculture outreach in North America and I use the list several times. I always requested address corrections from the post office, an extremely expensive service. I supported this important resoruce in every way I could, appreciative of Guy's efforts on a vital but essentially thankless task. Guy sold the directory to Peter Bane at the same time he sold the Activist. I used Peter's information several times and went to some troubles to see to it that both Guy and Peter got copies of address corrections, to save money from being spent twice for the same info, as well as to make sure that addresses were not lost. I put in more work when Peter passed the list onto John making sure that John has every bit of info I had, looking up on my rather large database (about 35,000 names and addresses) to see if I had current addresses of "missing" people, etc. It was my opinion that this work was to continue to be of benefit to the entire permaculture community. Last month I asked John to rent me the entire list--typically we have charged one another around 8-10 cents per address within the movement to rent lists. He said no, policies have changed, and now only the new Institute can have the list. John cited his opinion that Bill Mollison is "commander-in-chief" in his explanation--I confess to being so dumbstruck by the military allusion that I missed what Bill's role is, if any, in our constriction of any permaculturists right to network with the rest of us. According to John, Peter and Guy can't have the whole list either. John did give me Florida addresses (since I am in Florida) and email addresses since I teach an online course. I appreciate this much and of course I continue to send corrections on that information. We do have about 1,000 permaculture graduate addresses from various sources, most of which we cannot sell or rent due to agreements, and we used these, as we wanted to announce our new center to the entire movement. Most of you have seen that letter. Nothing subversive about it. About 1/8 of the addresses were out of date resulting in a great deal of wasted money and resources (address corrections for first mail cost $.50 plus the original postage plus the printing costs--adds up quickly. We aren't rich.) With the updated info Johh has, we could have avoided most of these bad addresses and paid a lesser sum to John for his troubles instead of the post office, which is a black hole as far as permaculture is concerned. John would have more update info without the expense, too, as you can be damn sure now we will not send address corrections without something back. The addresses are something generated by a very broad base of permaculture teachers which we all expected would continue to be available to any permaculturist for any reason. Now the Institute, which had no role in any of this work or expense, controls the list, at least de facto. Bill is cited in the justification by John, who has been previously very cooperative. OK, I didn't need to publish this, but you did ask, your question seemed sincere, and therefore I felt honorbound to give you an adequate answer. I went through this in more detail once, less detail another time and both messages crashed. AOL has crappy software, in my opinion, and it has been eating up my time today. So if I sound a bit peevish, AOL gets 99 percent of it. As I explained in a more considered version of this note, this sort of thing is to be expected. Years ago I did not understand that, and was upset when permaculture people acted contrary to our principles. Now I see that we come out of the Western anti-culture and that baggage is around for us to trip over, which we do with regularity that is comical from a distance. It seems we need to look more closely at what we bring--corporate structures, desire to control networking information, seeing people who want training as an income opportunity (not necessary for personal wealth--we've got that far), and start to unpack and through out some of the necessary luggage. The patterns from which we arise will continue to permeate our movement for a long time to come, in my opnion. The best way to deal with them is to point them our each time we notice them and see if there is not some alternate way to do things better. I have presented these views because they were requested. I'm not interested in a debate. Flamers can have the field to themselves. I've been observing these issues since 1981 so it may do to pause, even if you disagree, and see if there might be something valid in my opinions. Personally, I've concluded that the way to change these things is to change them in myself. So I'll continue to work with John instead of blowing him off as I would have 10 years ago. I'll do him one better. However I can see that there may be alternate directories developed as people decide that they have something to say to North American permaculturists as a group. And Kirby your idea of several national or continental organizations will be a fantasy if people can't contact one another to contact them. Our own work has been, in part, concerned with developing other forms of data bases that will enable all manner of connections. We encourage people to contact one another, indivudally and as groups, to form their own webs of exchange and cooperation, for example through our TRIP (The Resources of International Permaculture) directory. We publish the information, anyone can use it, and we'll sell a disk with the information to anyone who wants it. The course graduate directory used to be available on a similar basis. Now that the new Institute has formed it is not. Anyone who wants to contact John Irwin directly for clarification can email him at pcdirect@lancnews.infi.net John is a good guy who is trying to do his bit. I sure disagree with his decisions, but I would feel badly if anyone flamed him because of this post. I'd be delighted to read some clarification in this discussion group as I am at a loss as to what purpose constricting our ability to network serves. I didn't do very well staying out of this discussion, but you can belive I am going to try harder. The time spent away from implementing our design isn't worth discussion of something that will self-destruct, with any luck, in a few years anyway. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 13:47:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14364 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26836 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 33572 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156337-26831>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:41:52 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@jeter.acpub.duke.edu (port 55625 [152.3.233.10]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156321-26831>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:39:10 -0400 Received: from cellbio.duke.edu (voice.cellbio.duke.edu [152.3.66.66]) by jeter.acpub.duke.edu (8.8.5/Duke-4.5.3) with SMTP id NAA07092; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <000002008232959594927@cellbio.duke.edu> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 09:42:06 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: d.settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles, Dept. of Cell Biology DUMC) To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu (permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu) Subject: Strip crops and poultry X-Sender: D.Settles@cellbio.duke.edu (Dan Settles, Dept. of Cell Biology DUMC) X-Mailer: CommuniGate 2.9.7 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 On Sat, 11 Oct 1997 YankeePerm@aol.com wrote: > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT) > From: YankeePerm@aol.com > To: askpv@ozemail.com.au, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, > permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu > Subject: Re: Applications [strip crops] > > In a message dated 10/9/97 9:33:52 AM, askpv@ozemail.com.au (April > Sampson-Kelly) wrote: > > >The difference between strip farming with poultry free range in between the > >strips > >and actually using tractors- is the concentration of birds on the soil, > >this concentration can quickly denude an > >area which is open to weed seed or your seed. > >This is desirable for intensive beds but may be a unnecessary for large > >scale farming. > >When I use the chickens in a small concentration here I am left with woody > >plants and sedges and a mix of less tasty plants (tasty for hens) but there > >is a wider control of pests such as insects, caterpillars, slugs and > >snails. > >For orchard maintenance you could use 100 birds to the acre [Mollison] it > >all depends on how much understorey or ground cover > >there is for the birds to eat. > There is no reason not to grow grain for chickens in the forages when > chickens are out, or other crops and agroforestry naturally fits in. My > chickens really don't like to come out from under the trees and I have wasted > grain trying to entice them into certain open areas to break up bovine manure > pats for fly control. They just left the grain there, much to the delight of > the cardinals and other wild birds. > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway ------------------ Thought I'd share a little of my experince with poultry. We have 22 ducks and 11 chickens that are free ranging in a fenced 1 acre combination pasture/ wooded area. They share this area with 4 calves and 5 goats at the moment. The area is definitely not big enough to provide forage for the calves, but they need supplemental feed (grain) at this young state of their lives. The majority of the grain is corn and the calves do not completely digest it, so the manure is loaded with lots of small corn pieces. The ducks discovered this food source recently and have done an excellent job of breaking up the manure in search of the corn. At first they appeared to be very selective about picking the corn pieces out of the manure, but now they seem to be eating quite a bit of the green matter that passes through the calves. This has worked out great as we no longer have the mess of manure piles to step around and in, and it's alot better for fly and parasite control. My only concern with this system is that we plan to start eating some of the ducks soon, and I'm a bit concerned about how this diet might affect the flavor of the birds. I may find that I need to separate them from the manure for a period before butchering them. Perhaps you would have more luck feeding the grain to your bovines rather than scattering it on the ground. Whole grains tend to make the trip through the GI system better, but I am finding cracked corn also works fine. Good luck. Dan Settles From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 16:13:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15790 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18782 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 47191 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156247-26832>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:07:52 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (port 61968 [204.127.131.33]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156310-26830>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:06:45 -0400 Received: from [12.64.2.125] by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA23056 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:06:27 +0000 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:11:32 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: David Webb To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute In-Reply-To: <199710121125_MC2-23A3-8686@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: bioponic@postoffice.worldnet.att.net (Unverified) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 >Dan, > >It's interesting to hear some feedback about the Permaculture Institute set >up by Scott and Bill. My hunch is that they felt there was a need for a >national permaculture group, not to call the shots but rather to provide >information and help coordinate projects. > >My wife, Inger, is the one they hired to incorporate the institute and >obtain non-profit status so we can tell you something about the way it's >set up. BTW, the Permaculture Institute just received 501(c)3 status a >couple of weeks ago. > >The following information is public. The board is made up of Scott Pittman >- President, Bill Mollison - Vice President, Francis Huxley - Secretary / >Treasurer. > >Its mission is: to create, coordinate, further and fund endeavors that >will directly or indirectly aid in the establishment of ecologically and >economically sustainable agricultural and social systems, including but not >limited to the implementation of educational programs. > >Do you think there should be a national permaculture organization? There >could even be several of them. Just because someone makes an organization >national in scope doesn't mean that it's the only one that can exist. > > KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; >512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] *********** Kirby, Dan, et. al: Bill Mollison as vice president of anything sounds idealistic to me. The guy's going "mythical"...or haven't you heard? DAVID WEBB Director of Communications BIOPONIC INTERNATIONAL 767 Lincoln Ave., #3 San Rafael, CA 94901 415-460-1994 415-460-1996 fax Email: host@bioponic.com Internet: http://www.bioponic.com ********************************************** |"The leader in environmental restoration... | | into the 21st Century" | ********************************************** From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 13 18:31:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18612 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29346 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57519 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156517-26813>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:43 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout31.mx.aol.com (port 4867 [198.81.11.14]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156499-26831>; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:11 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout31.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA09253 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971013182439_1344292854@emout18.mail.aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Rebbry@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 Sorry, that was a personal message for Kirby Fry. I didn't realize the "Reply" button went to the entire list. Rebecca Bryant From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 07:14:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05982 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA20244 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57237 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156247-3061>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:09:12 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout13.mx.aol.com (port 1860 [198.81.11.39]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156377-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:08:57 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA14824 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971014070844_-560599643@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 In a message dated 10/13/97 4:13:23 PM, you wrote: >Kirby, Dan, et. al: > >Bill Mollison as vice president of anything sounds idealistic to me. The >guy's going "mythical"...or haven't you heard? Actually, I haven't heard as I try to avoid the permie gossip channels. But I'm really interested in what going mythical is. Sound like fun. Dan From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 07:25:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06066 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA22306 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 58048 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156474-3063>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:20:38 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout15.mx.aol.com (port 3094 [198.81.11.41]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156474-3061>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:19:51 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA20617 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971014071939_1899413927@emout15.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 Re: Dan Settles post. In the 1940s it was standard to run poultry or, more commonly, pigs, in stockyards, which is more or less what Dan is describing, though with less crowding. The ducks will be ok to eat but you have to cook them. I'd look into the matter more in tropical countries where ducks are disease vectors. Ducks won't work for us because they will head for the water and the alligators will eat them. Turkeys are probably a better companion for cattle as they are less subject to predators from the sky, though they have to be rounded up every night. Turkeys don'tget big enough that an owl can't fly off with one and of course foxes and racoons are all over the place. It happens that we have, or rather the steer has, egrets who keep him company and keep insects down. I don't think that they deliberately eat vegetable matter and of course they eat a lot of our sacred frogs, too, but they probably help us more than they hinder. For this role, they are rightly protected under Florida law. Even if they were a minor nuisance, eating more frogs and less insects, they are so damn beautiful, especially at sundown when they gather in soaring spiral patterns, silver against the pink and orange sky, with the green of the water lilly pads darkening -- god, I can't wait for dawn now to get out there again. Lots of combinations work. Beware of making so much soil bare unless you have plans to plant it. I mulch even the small bare spots where the steer likes down--I think his urine kills everything. Bare soil is anti-permaculture, except as a very brief transitional phase. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 09:20:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07015 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14349 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 65234 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156564-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:15:00 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@heinlein.acpub.duke.edu (port 52415 [152.3.233.9]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156632-3061>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:14:26 -0400 Received: from godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu (godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu [152.3.233.45]) by heinlein.acpub.duke.edu (8.8.5/Duke-4.5.3) with ESMTP id JAA10620; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dls4@localhost) by godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu (8.8.5/Duke-4.4) id JAA03265; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Daniel Lee Settles To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry In-Reply-To: <971014071939_1899413927@emout15.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 On Tue, 14 Oct 1997 YankeePerm@aol.com wrote: > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 07:19:41 -0400 (EDT) > From: YankeePerm@aol.com > To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu > Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry > > Re: Dan Settles post. > > In the 1940s it was standard to run poultry or, more commonly, pigs, in > stockyards, which is more or less what Dan is describing, though with less > crowding. > > The ducks will be ok to eat but you have to cook them. I'd look into the > matter more in tropical countries where ducks are disease vectors. Yes, I was planning on cooking them. I don't think I'd care to try raw duck, even though your alligators probably like them. > > Ducks won't work for us because they will head for the water and the > alligators will eat them. Turkeys are probably a better companion for cattle > as they are less subject to predators from the sky, though they have to be > rounded up every night. Turkeys don'tget big enough that an owl can't fly off > with one and of course foxes and racoons are all over the place. Fortunately, we don't have to be concerned with alligators, but there are plenty of stray dogs, racoons, bobcats, owls, hawks and other wild things that would like to snack on our ducks. The only reason we can manage things as we have is due to our livestock guardian dog, Sultan. He lives with our animals and in the 6 months that we have had him we have not lost a single animal to predators. I don't think I've read any permaculture books that mentioned these dogs, but I think they could be an excellent addition to many permaculture systems that utilize livestock. > It happens that we have, or rather the steer has, egrets who keep him company > and keep insects down. I don't think that they deliberately eat vegetable > matter and of course they eat a lot of our sacred frogs, too, but they > probably help us more than they hinder. For this role, they are rightly > protected under Florida law. Even if they were a minor nuisance, eating more > frogs and less insects, they are so damn beautiful, especially at sundown > when they gather in soaring spiral patterns, silver against the pink and > orange sky, with the green of the water lilly pads darkening -- god, I can't > wait for dawn now to get out there again. > That sounds beautiful. We have a blue heron that visits our pond most days to do a little fishing. I really enjoy watching it fly off into the sunset in the evening. Dan Settles > Lots of combinations work. Beware of making so much soil bare unless you > have plans to plant it. I mulch even the small bare spots where the steer > likes down--I think his urine kills everything. Bare soil is > anti-permaculture, except as a very brief transitional phase. > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since > 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence > courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. > Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA > YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 12:50:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09598 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07690 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 55389 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156716-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:45:16 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 43964 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156195-3060>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:41:22 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09533 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:46:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA08041 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:41:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:27:24 -0400 From: Dori Green To: csa-l@prairienet.org Subject: Established CSA Farm for Sale! Turnkey 20-acre farm five miles from New York State's #3 tourist destination. 12-room 3-bedroom house, garage, two-story horse barn, orchards, perennial herb gardens, and pasture on five acres, $80,000. Sorry, no land contract on this parcel. Includes many pieces of farming equipment, a commercial-size freezer, woodstove (also has central heat), all major appliances, even an Aracauna chicken flock and a good start toward your dairy goat herd if you want them and can convince me you'd take excellent care of them! Adjoining 15 acres includes 5 acres of wild strawberries, 3 acres of wild rasp- and blackberries, a bog full of cattails and Joe-Pye Weed, and a 2-acre market garden limed and seeded to winter rye for next year's harvest -- $10,000, will consider a five-year land contract with 50% down. Country auction house and 3D archery range next door, about 200 people visit there every Saturday night and many buy vegetables. New farmer's market in town. Reason for sale: I've accepted a CSA facilitator position in Puget Sound and will be relocating before Christmas. My marriage dissolved at this farm, it holds as many bad memories as good ones and I'm ready for new beginnings. It's too much for one person, but a team could do very well here. I'll be glad to include a list of past CSA members and other market contacts. Dori Green: Writer, Farmer, Facilitator Ash Grove Community Farm & Center for Sustainable Living http://www.servtech.com/public/funfarm/index.html From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 13:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11531 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02862 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:53:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 63181 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156694-3060>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:52:48 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout24.mx.aol.com (port 2727 [198.81.11.129]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156295-3063>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:51:36 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout24.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA09064 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971014133921_-1093574908@emout03.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Mythical!!??!! X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 Mythical. . . . now there is something worthwhile to achieve out of life. I suggest that all us old folks of permaculture plus years need to concentrate on showing the younger ones, the pre-X generation or what-have-you, just how to be outrageous. Time for some Permie Sex Pistols. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 17:59:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18752 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA24630 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41633 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156562-3063>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:53:25 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@arl-img-6.compuserve.com (port 4279 [149.174.217.136]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156998-3062> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:51:56 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id RAA07293 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710141708_MC2-23E4-179F@compuserve.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:08:40 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Mythical!!??!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 Permie Sex Pistols... Hmmm... I think Vicki already mailed OUR application in... From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 19:18:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23646 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15476 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 52863 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156465-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:12:55 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (port 45520 [156.46.73.3]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156419-3060>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:10:17 -0400 Received: from 156.46.73.121 (ppp21.westby.mwt.net [156.46.73.121]) by westbyserver.westby.mwt.net (8.8.7/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA25955 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:08:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3443A881.46C7@mwt.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:15:16 +0100 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Miekal And To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies References: <343D20D4.3A63@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 thanks to you all that have had suggestions about comfrey a point of clarification - i'm in Wisonsin szone 4 (first snowshower of the season last night!) and the site zone i'm putting the comfrey in is either 2 or 3. We've just planted a bunch in our nut orchard which right now is a field of grasses with the trees poking out above. Did a range with proximity to the trees, some close in (2-3 ft)on the edge of the surrounding mulch, then the rst further away as landfmark or space fillers. We just heeled em in - ave. 3in root portions from a vibrant 5 yr old patch. see if they make it up thru the sod come spring. -hether- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 19:19:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23705 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15798 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:14:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 53022 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156270-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:14:01 -0400 Received: from root@sr.radiks.net (port 33700 [205.138.126.6]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156275-3061>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:13:29 -0400 Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA15080; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:12:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3443FC76.2E20@radiks.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Tom Berthold To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hold your breath References: <199710131137_MC2-23BE-6692@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 Jack, Your comments about the serious danger of shooting plutonium into orbit are well taken, but I find your remark: > Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and > a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian > Western “Civilization” from myself... > quite offensive. This is not a race issue. This is a national issue. I happen to be white and I'm proud of my heritage. Would you be offended if I said "I hate black people."? Why is it okay to disparage white people? Technology has caused a lot of problems it's true... Are you blaming whites for the scientific discoveries that have led to technological capability? Do you assume other races could/would/will handle technological capabilities more responsibly? From owner-permaculture@manatee.envirolink.org Tue Oct 14 19:25:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24008 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manatee.envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17701 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manatee.envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22348; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sr.radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by manatee.envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21654 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA15080; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:12:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3443FC76.2E20@radiks.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: berthold@radiks.net Sender: owner-permaculture@manatee.envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Tom Berthold To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hold your breath References: <199710131137_MC2-23BE-6692@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Jack, Your comments about the serious danger of shooting plutonium into orbit are well taken, but I find your remark: > Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and > a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian > Western “Civilization” from myself... > quite offensive. This is not a race issue. This is a national issue. I happen to be white and I'm proud of my heritage. Would you be offended if I said "I hate black people."? Why is it okay to disparage white people? Technology has caused a lot of problems it's true... Are you blaming whites for the scientific discoveries that have led to technological capability? Do you assume other races could/would/will handle technological capabilities more responsibly? From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 14 22:29:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02808 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12042 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 34231 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156697-3061>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:23:54 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@marine.sonic.net (port 1330 [208.201.224.37]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156711-3062>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 22:23:23 -0400 Received: (qmail 11022 invoked from network); 15 Oct 1997 01:51:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 15 Oct 1997 01:51:16 -0000 Received: from default (d200.pm6.sonic.net [208.201.229.200]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29969 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:47:01 -0700 Message-Id: <344422B2.55F5@sonic.net> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:56:02 -0700 Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Keith Johnson To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies References: <343D20D4.3A63@mwt.net> <3443A881.46C7@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-envelope-info: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Miekal And wrote: > > thanks to you all that have had suggestions about comfrey > > a point of clarification - i'm in Wisonsin szone 4 (first snowshower of > the season last night!) and the site zone i'm putting the comfrey in is > either 2 or 3. We've just planted a bunch in our nut orchard which right > now is a field of grasses with the trees poking out above. Did a range > with proximity to the trees, some close in (2-3 ft)on the edge of the > surrounding mulch, then the rest further away as landmark or space > fillers. We just heeled em in - ave. 3in root portions from a vibrant 5 > yr old patch. see if they make it up thru the sod come spring. > -hether- Hether, "If they make it up"???? I wouldn't worry too much about it. If they can thrive from Michigan to Maine (even Siberia I've heard)they'll come thru for you. The better time of the year to propagate is early spring just before they emerge. I've had outstanding success with propagules only 1 inch long (1/4in. diam. min.) laid on edge in flats. It doesn't take much. Although it's said that they produce seed very seldom, mine did once in Detroit and the flowers were a deep pink. I wish I had some seeds from it. -- Keith keithdj@sonic.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 00:25:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03860 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA17583 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 40631 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156658-3060>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:20:07 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@F104.hotmail.com (port 2417 [207.82.250.223]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156637-3063>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:19:20 -0400 Received: (qmail 28054 invoked by uid 0); 15 Oct 1997 04:19:11 -0000 Received: from 129.65.28.58 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:19:10 PDT Message-Id: <19971015041911.28053.qmail@hotmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:19:10 PDT Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Akiva Werbalowsky" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: newbie to list Content-Type: text/plain X-Originating-IP: [129.65.28.58] X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Is this list a premium work-net tool? I'm looking for the most efficient ways to communicate with the Permaculture Nation, so if you recommend additional ways, I'm open to your message. Thanks. Dedicated, Akiva ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 00:32:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03915 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA18857 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41066 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156266-3061>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:26:08 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-8.compuserve.com (port 4369 [149.174.206.138]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155854-3061> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:25:18 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id AAA13252 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710150024_MC2-23F0-7169@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:24:21 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Hold your breath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Jack, What are they using the plutonium for, fuel for an internal reactor like on a sub? I wonder how the EPA and UNEP would classify such waste. KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 00:32:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03920 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA18862 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41016 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156249-3062>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:26:08 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@arl-img-5.compuserve.com (port 4836 [149.174.217.135]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156533-3062> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:25:02 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id AAA09137 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710150024_MC2-23F0-716C@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 00:24:26 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 Dan, >> The fact is that the first step for the group was to promote an Australian permaculturist << Did the Permaculture Institute promote those design courses last summer? I honestly can't remember what was on the flyers. However, I don't believe you mentioned what was wrong with promoting Australian permaculture teachers. It would certainly be nice if they promoted north American teachers. Or are you implying that travelling to another continent to teach is unethical? I, on the other hand, might say that using the planet's resources to send a good teacher accross the sea would be the MOST ethical thing we could do with those resources. >> So we have an institute that promotes zero standards for certification. << That's not exactly true. I know Bill expects the students to receive 72 hours of class room time to obtain their certificate. I would call that a standard. >> Nature uses anarchistic designs, not hierarchical designs. The very structure of a 501(c)3 violates permaculture. << This statement seems to be extremely subjective to me. Am I supposed to logically conclude that registering a group with the government is completely counter productive? I agree that a permaculture movement could be totally successful without creating any kind of corporation, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that by creating any kind of corporation a Pc movement couldn't be successful. KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 01:28:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04352 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA02101 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 44266 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156643-3063>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:23:12 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47203 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156467-3062> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:20:54 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04326; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA28904; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hold your breath In-Reply-To: <3443FC76.2E20@radiks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 > > Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and Could possibly have marketing potential - camo-tattoo for survivalist nudist colonies; skip the lobotomy, though. > quite offensive. This is not a race issue. This is a national issue. Not to worry about the humor-challenged, Jack. From owner-permaculture@manatee.envirolink.org Wed Oct 15 01:30:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04399 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from manatee.envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA02469 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by manatee.envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA27286; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by manatee.envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27198 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04326; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA28904; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: london@sunsite.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@manatee.envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hold your breath In-Reply-To: <3443FC76.2E20@radiks.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by manatee.envirolink.org id BAA27199 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 > > Damn, I hate white people... I’m thinking of having a full-body tattoo and Could possibly have marketing potential - camo-tattoo for survivalist nudist colonies; skip the lobotomy, though. > quite offensive. This is not a race issue. This is a national issue. Not to worry about the humor-challenged, Jack. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 01:32:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04418 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:32:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA02820 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 44757 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156511-3060>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:26:54 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47226 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156666-3063>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:26:07 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04404 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA28956 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:25:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 01:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies In-Reply-To: <344422B2.55F5@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Keith Johnson wrote: > for you. The better time of the year to propagate is early spring just > before they emerge. I've had outstanding success with propagules only 1 > inch long (1/4in. diam. min.) laid on edge in flats. It doesn't take > much. Although it's said that they produce seed very seldom, mine did > once in Detroit and the flowers were a deep pink. I wish I had some > seeds from it. Down here in NC comfrey flowers readily and sets a goodly amont of seed which sprouts and takes root easily. It needs rich friable soil to do this. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 02:23:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA04961 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA15167 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 47081 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <155518-3062>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:18:12 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47363 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155411-3063>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:17:57 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA04952 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id CAA29816 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 02:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: We have permaculture newsgroups too (10 of them) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 Use this URL to get a complete list of permaculture newsgroups (10) available at sunSITE: news://news.sunsite.unc.edu or: news://news.sunsite.unc.edu/permaculture.guilds or add this nntp news server to your news reader: news.sunsite.unc.edu -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - Dragonfly Market Gardens mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 07:14:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06514 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA07827 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 54436 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156739-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:09:17 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout10.mx.aol.com (port 4361 [198.81.11.25]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156731-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:09:01 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA28628; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015070855_356313536@emout10.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: dls4@acpub.duke.edu, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 In a message dated 10/14/97 9:15:52 AM, dls4@acpub.duke.edu wrote: >Fortunately, we don't have to be concerned with alligators, but there are >plenty of stray dogs, racoons, bobcats, owls, hawks and other wild things >that would like to snack on our ducks. The only reason we can manage things >as we have is due to our livestock guardian dog, Sultan. He lives with >our animals and in the 6 months that we have had him we have not lost a >single animal to predators. I don't think I've read any permaculture >books that mentioned these dogs, but I think they could be an excellent >addition to many permaculture systems that utilize livestock. Ah, you have solved my alligator/duck problem. Alligators prefer dogs to about anything! Now I need a cheap source of dogs. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 07:19:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06565 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA08652 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 54652 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156736-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:14:20 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout13.mx.aol.com (port 1792 [198.81.11.39]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156700-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:14:05 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA25256 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015071356_557347905@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:13:57 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 In a message dated 10/14/97 9:15:52 AM, you wrote: >That sounds beautiful. We have a blue heron that visits our pond most >days to do a little fishing. I really enjoy watching it fly off into the >sunset in the evening. > >Dan Settles Yes, we have herons too--blue, grey, white. At dawn if you flush them from hunting, they rise as though they were in slow motion, the undulation of their wings seemingly a beauty utterly independent of flight. They lift an melt into the sun-speckled mist while the sliver water lillies open. this is the Florida swamp land that everyone thinks is worthless. You are right, stay away, the viscious alligators will get you. (More likely, fire ants.) Mollison was so right about edges. That is where the action is, dusk and dawn, when the mystery of life tingles at the surface. This is what we are saving with permaculture if we do it right and don't spend all our time fighting each other. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 07:31:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06632 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:31:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA10597 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 55304 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156640-28366>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:26:19 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout13.mx.aol.com (port 3461 [198.81.11.39]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156608-28364>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:26:03 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA01708 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015072554_1632943299@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Mythical!!??!! X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 In a message dated 10/14/97 1:53:26 PM, you wrote: >Mythical. . . . now there is something worthwhile to achieve out of life. > >I suggest that all us old folks of permaculture plus years need to >concentrate on showing the younger ones, the pre-X generation or >what-have-you, just how to be outrageous. > >Time for some Permie Sex Pistols. > >Milo Clark >Berkeley CA USA Well Bill Mollison is good at that. Most of his stories are mythical. They probably never happend, or at least not that way, but he has improved mere events on the material plane to make them TRUE. That is myth--a True story that probably didn't happen, and surely not that way. A mythical person would be a character from such a story--much like the accounts of Elvis's after death exploits are mythic. Myth has fundamental purposes, especially for those who are using permaculture as a temporary expedient while the necessary generations elapse to form a real culture for our people again. A good sense of what is going on is also useful. People raised in cultures imbued with mythic patterns evolved in that region, or adapted in an evolutionary manner to that region, see the transitory realities of material existence with perspecacity. They know what is wrong about things and what is right, without the wastefulness of analytical thought. The analysis is a more subtle kind--the computer of human culture self-learns it over time. People who think that analytical thought by individuals can solve any problems are our friends, if they want to solve the problem of human destrutiveness to Mother Earth, but they are dangerous friends. While we fumble, we must set in motion, somehow, the kernal of myth. People can do amazing things through the insight of collective wisdom. Myth is the crystaliation of collective wisdom of generations past. It illuminates the present and can send a directed searchlight into the future--seven generations say some folks who have been on this continent way longer than 3/4 of my ancestors. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 08:06:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06884 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15826 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 56922 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156732-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:01:03 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout20.mx.aol.com (port 2909 [198.81.11.46]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156747-28364>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:00:48 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA02079 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015080032_1621618506@emout20.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 In a message dated 10/15/97 12:33:30 AM, you wrote: >Dan, > >>> The fact is that the first step for the group was to promote an >Australian permaculturist << > >Did the Permaculture Institute promote those design courses last summer? I >honestly can't remember what was on the flyers. > >However, I don't believe you mentioned what was wrong with promoting >Australian permaculture teachers. It would certainly be nice if they >promoted north American teachers. Or are you implying that travelling to >another continent to teach is unethical? > >I, on the other hand, might say that using the planet's resources to send a >good teacher accross the sea would be the MOST ethical thing we could do >with those resources. I have gone over this in previous posts. Historically, such institutes have only promoted Australian teachers. Australian teachers already have an edge, according to Bill, in that their transport and some expenses are subsidized by the Australian government, so long as they siphon money back to Australia. An institute that claims to represent North America and manages to commandeer quasi-exclusive use of the mailing list to which many of us have given major input and dozens of teachers have helped build ought to be involved in promoting North American permaculture teachers as their first priority. As I mentioned earlier, Bill might well be a good person to bring in from time to time for advanced teaching to teachers. Frankly, we have a number of teachers in North America who are at least as effetive at teaching permaculture as Bill. Clearcutting the market drives them into other activities. Nobody is going to tell Bill what to do regardless of what happens or is said. If anything, he is apt to show up more if asked to stay away. I don't think that Scott is much different, though I don't know him and have only spotty contact. I could be wrong there--it would be a surprise, but surprises can be nice. I guess I want to know why you feel it is useful to extend this discussion. You seem to support this institute and I'm happy to let my concerns stand. I'd rather not be going over and over the same ground. It can't help the institute to have these issues raised over and over again. What is your angle. Clearly you want to argue and not to listen, but do you want to argue badly enough to harm your cause? I agree that it is often a good idea to cause pollution to send a teacher to places where a teacher is needed. Obviouisly, if good, well established, Mollison-blessed teachers are screaming in pain when he comes and clear-cuts the market from under them, this is not a case of needed teachers. This is a case of income--whether it is to be used for one purpose or another. It seems rather close to the permaculture ethic about competition to be comfortable. The US is rich and diverting money from our permaculture movement, which is NOT rich, can do good works elsewhere. Have we volunteered for this transfusion. I think not. Indeed there is a dire shortage of funds to meet requests for teaching in India, Africa, South America Asia, and other places where I have had to put people on endless hold because we cannot subsidize their needs. It is sad to have to tell these people that they need to learn fundraising as we can't just hop in a plane and fly over. Mostly, they think all Americans are rich in ways that we are mostly not, particularly the dozens who have given up regular income to teach permaculture. North America is hardly short of teachers. Your point is exactly why I feel that there is a problem with the jet-set international convergences. We could have permaculture on a strong footing just about everywhere there is a life-or-death need for it with the funds expended in transport, etc., for these events. When I get on board a jet, I always question whether the destruction to the ozone and general hydrocarbon pollution from the jet engines is justified by what I might help to happen as a teacher. Being a spiritual person, I also pray to the Earth Mother and sundry associates that I have chosen wisely and that the cost to the planet will be repaid many times. I would have to have a very powerful reason to go to Australia and teach where there are plenty of permaculture teachers and where any impidement to the faster spread of permaculture is hardly the need for more teachers. While Bill is a special case, HOW special he is might be worth his consideration in these matters. Discussing this between you and me isn't going to change what Bill does. Give it a rest. >>That's not exactly true. I know Bill expects the students to receive 72 hours of class room time to obtain their certificate. I would call that a standard.<< So after 72 hours of hearing someone talk, a person has a license to tinker with nature and call it permaculture? That is a standard for teachers, maybe, but not for their students. The certificate becomes an attendance affadivit and nothing more. There is no competency or comprehension evaluation required. These would be standards as far as I am concerned. >> Nature uses anarchistic designs, not hierarchical designs. The very structure of a 501(c)3 violates permaculture. << >>Am I supposed to logically conclude that registering a group with the government is completely counter productive?<< From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 08:11:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06932 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16577 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57188 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156640-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:05:58 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout05.mx.aol.com (port 4263 [198.81.11.96]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <155712-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:05:42 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA24931 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015080530_1700184139@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: comfrey tendencies X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 In a message dated 10/15/97 6:47:58 AM, you wrote: >thanks to you all that have had suggestions about comfrey > >a point of clarification - i'm in Wisonsin szone 4 (first snowshower of >the season last night!) and the site zone i'm putting the comfrey in is >either 2 or 3. We've just planted a bunch in our nut orchard which right >now is a field of grasses with the trees poking out above. Did a range >with proximity to the trees, some close in (2-3 ft)on the edge of the >surrounding mulch, then the rst further away as landfmark or space >fillers. We just heeled em in - ave. 3in root portions from a vibrant 5 >yr old patch. see if they make it up thru the sod come spring. >-hether- Maybe in a few years you will post or publish (consider our Journal) how the trees fare with comfrey competition. There are a lot of unsubstantiated claims that it doesn't compete with trees but it sure fights a losing battle with our sabal palms, mainly moisture competition. Around fruit trees, I'd mow the comfrey close to the ground in dry years. This should limit the mosture it requires for transpiration. Meanwhile, we need someone to really and truely see if comfrey benefits fruit and nut trees as people are guessing it does. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 10:33:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08232 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28798 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 38033 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156842-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:27:41 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net (port 48075 [204.71.76.241]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156804-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:26:05 -0400 Received: from Garland (s18-pm09.snwestsac.campus.mci.net [208.155.129.97]) by sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12025 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710151423.HAA12025@sac-b.mp.campus.mci.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 07:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Hold your breath Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 At 01:20 AM 10/15/97 -0400, you wrote: > >> > Damn, I hate white people... I'm thinking of having a full-body tattoo and > >Could possibly have marketing potential - camo-tattoo for survivalist >nudist colonies; skip the lobotomy, though. > >> quite offensive. This is not a race issue. This is a national issue. > >Not to worry about the humor-challenged, Jack. > >***Right on, Lawrence*** From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 11:33:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09007 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16763 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 44830 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156814-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:27:29 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-4.compuserve.com (port 1869 [149.174.206.134]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156811-28354> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:26:52 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.6) id LAA11192 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710151105_MC2-23F1-BC6D@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:05:44 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Hold your breath MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Message text written by INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu >What are they using the plutonium for, fuel for an internal reactor like on a sub? < NASA says it's to power the rocket; however, the conspiracy theorists believe it's part of a bomb designed to destroy hostile alien forces congregating near saturn. Smoke that! From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 15 12:52:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA10041 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11846 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11445; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-8.compuserve.com (hil-img-8.compuserve.com [149.174.177.138]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10814 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id MAA24839; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710151231_MC2-23FC-DB2@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Hmmm... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id MAA10816 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 Well, dangit, I’ve gone from insulting individuals to entire classes of people (I used the term white people as a class, and not a race, term... to paraphrase a friend of mine -- who was talking about fishing at the time -- “whiteness is a state of mind”). Probably I should stick to the definitions for words that everyone else uses... nah. This language is badly in need of overhaul, top to bottom... we’re still using an “either-or”, Euclidean language in an “all-of-the-above” quantum-relativistic World. It’s time, perhaps, to suffer through the seemingly-obligatory intermediary period of confusion. Well, I can definitely contribute there. As a kid growing up in the US’s South during the civil rights battles, I never claimed Caucasian on those forms which asked (true, I was offended by the very question back then, so my recent remark was probably a little “out there”). I always claimed to be black-skinned, or on those few occasions when that more-exotic alternative was offered, Mongolian. Occasionally Amerindian. I still claim them all -- as classes, or “states of mind”. I didn’t mean to actually offend persons of ecological, humane sensibility ("humane"... another class/racist/species-ist term -- an ironic one which obviously has its etymological origins rooted in narcissistic fantasy)... I do believe that the class of humans we might in poor taste refer to as “white people” have excelled at the anarchic, indiscriminate, destructive use of technology in a way that is so frightening and appalling that the ethical sense fails to suffice in its capacity for dismay. Well, we all know that. Sorry, folks, I’ll leave my skin with its present pigmentation and work on the deeper tarnish on the species. Jack ADDENDUMB: “a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian Western “Civilization”... a step in the wrong direction? From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 13:02:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10231 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15485 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 62906 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156770-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:56:42 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-8.compuserve.com (port 2778 [149.174.177.138]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156940-28364> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:38:20 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id MAA24839; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710151231_MC2-23FC-DB2@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Hmmm... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Well, dangit, I’ve gone from insulting individuals to entire classes of people (I used the term white people as a class, and not a race, term... to paraphrase a friend of mine -- who was talking about fishing at the time -- “whiteness is a state of mind”). Probably I should stick to the definitions for words that everyone else uses... nah. This language is badly in need of overhaul, top to bottom... we’re still using an “either-or”, Euclidean language in an “all-of-the-above” quantum-relativistic World. It’s time, perhaps, to suffer through the seemingly-obligatory intermediary period of confusion. Well, I can definitely contribute there. As a kid growing up in the US’s South during the civil rights battles, I never claimed Caucasian on those forms which asked (true, I was offended by the very question back then, so my recent remark was probably a little “out there”). I always claimed to be black-skinned, or on those few occasions when that more-exotic alternative was offered, Mongolian. Occasionally Amerindian. I still claim them all -- as classes, or “states of mind”. I didn’t mean to actually offend persons of ecological, humane sensibility ("humane"... another class/racist/species-ist term -- an ironic one which obviously has its etymological origins rooted in narcissistic fantasy)... I do believe that the class of humans we might in poor taste refer to as “white people” have excelled at the anarchic, indiscriminate, destructive use of technology in a way that is so frightening and appalling that the ethical sense fails to suffice in its capacity for dismay. Well, we all know that. Sorry, folks, I’ll leave my skin with its present pigmentation and work on the deeper tarnish on the species. Jack ADDENDUMB: “a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of Caucasian Western “Civilization”... a step in the wrong direction? From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 13:21:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10540 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA20912 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 65327 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156954-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:15:20 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@arl-img-8.compuserve.com (port 4781 [149.174.217.138]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156854-28364> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:12:43 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id NAA27515; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710151311_MC2-23EC-74C9@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: PC Acad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 Hi, Kirb, Good posts, good to see you on the lists! My understanding -- from conversations with you, Scott, Bill and Inger -- of the new PC "Institute" is that it is being set up not as a promotional institute, but as an Academy through which Design course graduates can move on to further degrees which would be recognized as higher degrees outside of permacultural "circles". I believe that as permaculturists we can benefit greatly from training in life and other sciences, economics ("math has given economics rigor, but, alas, also mortis"... who said that?), etc. Often in design courses I see plans which lack a basic underpinning of familiarity with plants, socio-economic structures, etc. Rebelling has been good, now it's time for the revolution. For that we'll need to be more capable than the "opposition"... we'll need more and better information, more money, much time which we don't have, etc. Let's go for it! Jack From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 13:25:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10611 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21920 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 32944 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156927-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:19:14 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@IP9-201.DBC.COM (port 4548 [199.217.9.201]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156847-28364>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:16:13 -0400 Received: from lmdavidson (199.217.10.10) by ipgate.dbc.com (MX F5.0) with SMTP; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:15:58 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971015171758.009669e8@pop.batnet.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:17:58 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Loren Davidson To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Strip crops and poultry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: beauty@pop.batnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 At 07:08 AM 10/15/97 -0400, YankeePerm@aol.com wrote: >Ah, you have solved my alligator/duck problem. Alligators prefer dogs to >about anything! Now I need a cheap source of dogs. Well, the first two might cost you something, unless you loiter in front of grocery stores looking for the cardboard boxes labeled "free puppies". After that, I understand they propagate without much encouragement. Perhaps more than two, depending on how their rate of propagation compares to the rate at which the alligators harvest them... Loren, humming, "How much is that doggie in the window..." -- Loren Davidson loren@wombat.net http://www.batnet.com/beauty/ "Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind" - seen on a bumper sticker From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 15 13:27:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10648 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22393 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15795; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arl-img-8.compuserve.com (arl-img-8.compuserve.com [149.174.217.138]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14671 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id NAA27515; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710151311_MC2-23EC-74C9@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:10:39 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: PC Acad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id NAA14672 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 Hi, Kirb, Good posts, good to see you on the lists! My understanding -- from conversations with you, Scott, Bill and Inger -- of the new PC "Institute" is that it is being set up not as a promotional institute, but as an Academy through which Design course graduates can move on to further degrees which would be recognized as higher degrees outside of permacultural "circles". I believe that as permaculturists we can benefit greatly from training in life and other sciences, economics ("math has given economics rigor, but, alas, also mortis"... who said that?), etc. Often in design courses I see plans which lack a basic underpinning of familiarity with plants, socio-economic structures, etc. Rebelling has been good, now it's time for the revolution. For that we'll need to be more capable than the "opposition"... we'll need more and better information, more money, much time which we don't have, etc. Let's go for it! Jack From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 16:30:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15170 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22040 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 56573 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157065-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:12 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout03.mx.aol.com (port 1780 [198.81.11.94]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157095-28366>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:20:46 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA26045 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971015161629_1722228663@emout03.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:20:39 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Hmmm... X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 A million or so years from now, assuming humankind of any kind may still be around, I suspect historians and archeologists will record that the most destructive force of the centuries beginning with a 2 was the collection of ideologies and beliefs subsumed as Savage Capitalism and Western Civilization. And I'm an optimist. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 16:30:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15175 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22082 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 56589 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156685-28364>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:25:15 -0400 Received: from root@comp.uark.edu (port 65365 [130.184.252.197]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157041-28366>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:22:09 -0400 Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11915 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:22:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id UAA12037 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 20:22:59 GMT Message-Id: <199710152022.UAA12037@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:09:39 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Guide to Permaculture Sites in North America X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Found this on Bioregional Archives at Communications for a Sustainable Future, fyi.... steve dvier ================================================== Forward message from: gopher://csf.Colorado.EDU:70/0R5627-6521-/environment/Bioregional/oct97 From: Beabriggs@aol.com by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:42:57 -0400 (EDT) To: bioregional@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Guide to Permaculture Sites A Pilrim's Guide to Permaculture Sites in North America is being prepared to facilitate communication and cooperation between people and places where reinhabitory practices are being implemented. If you know of a permaculture demonstraton site, project, practitioner or individuals/groups with related skills or services to share (1.e., bioregional groups, local info center, newsletter, networker, school, etc) which might like to be listed , please contact Chuck Marsh at 55 Grove Street #15, Ashville, NC 28801. (tel/fax. 704.254.5454). No charge for listings. Deadline for submission of data is October 30, 1997. ================================================= -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 15 17:31:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15886 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10620 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 63301 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157050-28365>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:25:57 -0400 Received: from root@sr.radiks.net (port 60408 [205.138.126.6]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156782-28354>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:24:37 -0400 Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00748; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:23:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3445348D.56B4@radiks.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Tom Berthold To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hmmm... References: <199710151231_MC2-23FC-DB2@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 WARNING: OFF TOPIC PRESS DELETE NOW TO MOVE ON Jack, Regarding the “I hate white people” comment: Perhaps I’m overly sensitive but I keep seeing references to how whites, and specifically white men are disgusting, malevolent beings who have raped, pillaged, and otherwise exploited other races and their cultures, and even have spoiled nature herself. Sadly, much of this is true. But that is only part of the picture. What is often left out of such remarks, and what is completely relevant, is that the white culture is not morally any worse that any other culture. For whatever reason, the vast majority of technological innovations from the beginning of the industrial revolution to the present have been developed by white people. Did other cultures refrain from exploiting these technologies because they knew they were dangerous and that they could not trust themselves to use them wisely? Of course not. Unfortunately, humans in general will use any tool they can invent, borrow, buy, or steal to further empower themselves. If others or the environment are harmed by this - well, too bad. The white culture is by no means unique in this aspect. This exploitive bent surely derives from the same primitive survival instincts that kept our ancestors alive and propagating their genes long before they were even walking upright. No, perhaps white people may be blamed for being too clever, but not for being less ethical than other cultures. Perhaps this was what you were alluding to when you jokingly suggested you might opt for a lobotomy to remove the last vestiges of your whiteness. See my point? Non-white cultures are NOT more gentle or more benevolent or more environmentally responsible than white cultures. I know your closing remarks blaming white people were by no means the central point of your diatribe against the careless launch of radioactive poison to Saturn (or wherever Cassini is headed off to), but I guess it hit a nerve with me. I keep seeing this thing popping up- this portrayal of whites and their culture as rotten and monstrous. It is the technology that we need to focus on, that has to be treated with lethal respect. For good or ill the genie is out of the bottle, but please don’t blame the guy who opened the bottle and looked inside. Tom Berthold Jack Rowe wrote: > > Well, dangit, I’ve gone from insulting individuals to entire classes of > people (I used the term white people as a class, and not a race, term... to > paraphrase a friend of mine -- who was talking about fishing at the time -- > “whiteness is a state of mind”). Probably I should stick to the > definitions for words that everyone else uses... nah. This language is > badly in need of overhaul, top to bottom... we’re still using an > “either-or”, Euclidean language in an “all-of-the-above” > quantum-relativistic World. It’s time, perhaps, to suffer through the > seemingly-obligatory intermediary period of confusion. Well, I can > definitely contribute there. > > As a kid growing up in the US’s South during the civil rights battles, I > never claimed Caucasian on those forms which asked (true, I was offended by > the very question back then, so my recent remark was probably a little “out > there”). I always claimed to be black-skinned, or on those few occasions > when that more-exotic alternative was offered, Mongolian. Occasionally > Amerindian. I still claim them all -- as classes, or “states of mind”. > > I didn’t mean to actually offend persons of ecological, humane sensibility > ("humane"... another class/racist/species-ist term -- an ironic one which > obviously has its etymological origins rooted in narcissistic fantasy)... I > do believe that the class of humans we might in poor taste refer to as > “white people” have excelled at the anarchic, indiscriminate, destructive > use of technology in a way that is so frightening and appalling that the > ethical sense fails to suffice in its capacity for dismay. Well, we all > know that. > > Sorry, folks, I’ll leave my skin with its present pigmentation and work on > the deeper tarnish on the species. > > Jack > > ADDENDUMB: “a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of > Caucasian Western “Civilization”... a step in the wrong direction? From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 15 17:36:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15957 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11967 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16095; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sr.radiks.net (sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15235 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by sr.radiks.net (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id QAA00748; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:23:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3445348D.56B4@radiks.net> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 16:24:29 -0500 Reply-To: berthold@radiks.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Tom Berthold To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Re: Hmmm... References: <199710151231_MC2-23FC-DB2@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 WARNING: OFF TOPIC PRESS DELETE NOW TO MOVE ON Jack, Regarding the “I hate white people” comment: Perhaps I’m overly sensitive but I keep seeing references to how whites, and specifically white men are disgusting, malevolent beings who have raped, pillaged, and otherwise exploited other races and their cultures, and even have spoiled nature herself. Sadly, much of this is true. But that is only part of the picture. What is often left out of such remarks, and what is completely relevant, is that the white culture is not morally any worse that any other culture. For whatever reason, the vast majority of technological innovations from the beginning of the industrial revolution to the present have been developed by white people. Did other cultures refrain from exploiting these technologies because they knew they were dangerous and that they could not trust themselves to use them wisely? Of course not. Unfortunately, humans in general will use any tool they can invent, borrow, buy, or steal to further empower themselves. If others or the environment are harmed by this - well, too bad. The white culture is by no means unique in this aspect. This exploitive bent surely derives from the same primitive survival instincts that kept our ancestors alive and propagating their genes long before they were even walking upright. No, perhaps white people may be blamed for being too clever, but not for being less ethical than other cultures. Perhaps this was what you were alluding to when you jokingly suggested you might opt for a lobotomy to remove the last vestiges of your whiteness. See my point? Non-white cultures are NOT more gentle or more benevolent or more environmentally responsible than white cultures. I know your closing remarks blaming white people were by no means the central point of your diatribe against the careless launch of radioactive poison to Saturn (or wherever Cassini is headed off to), but I guess it hit a nerve with me. I keep seeing this thing popping up- this portrayal of whites and their culture as rotten and monstrous. It is the technology that we need to focus on, that has to be treated with lethal respect. For good or ill the genie is out of the bottle, but please don’t blame the guy who opened the bottle and looked inside. Tom Berthold Jack Rowe wrote: > > Well, dangit, I’ve gone from insulting individuals to entire classes of > people (I used the term white people as a class, and not a race, term... to > paraphrase a friend of mine -- who was talking about fishing at the time -- > “whiteness is a state of mind”). Probably I should stick to the > definitions for words that everyone else uses... nah. This language is > badly in need of overhaul, top to bottom... we’re still using an > “either-or”, Euclidean language in an “all-of-the-above” > quantum-relativistic World. It’s time, perhaps, to suffer through the > seemingly-obligatory intermediary period of confusion. Well, I can > definitely contribute there. > > As a kid growing up in the US’s South during the civil rights battles, I > never claimed Caucasian on those forms which asked (true, I was offended by > the very question back then, so my recent remark was probably a little “out > there”). I always claimed to be black-skinned, or on those few occasions > when that more-exotic alternative was offered, Mongolian. Occasionally > Amerindian. I still claim them all -- as classes, or “states of mind”. > > I didn’t mean to actually offend persons of ecological, humane sensibility > ("humane"... another class/racist/species-ist term -- an ironic one which > obviously has its etymological origins rooted in narcissistic fantasy)... I > do believe that the class of humans we might in poor taste refer to as > “white people” have excelled at the anarchic, indiscriminate, destructive > use of technology in a way that is so frightening and appalling that the > ethical sense fails to suffice in its capacity for dismay. Well, we all > know that. > > Sorry, folks, I’ll leave my skin with its present pigmentation and work on > the deeper tarnish on the species. > > Jack > > ADDENDUMB: “a pre-frontal lobotomy (another one?!?) to remove all traces of > Caucasian Western “Civilization”... a step in the wrong direction? From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 16 09:19:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23968 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05328 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03739; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03424; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA17032; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971016090552_-1192907630@emout05.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: Fwd: Seed Source X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 In a message dated 10/16/97 3:28:40 AM, echo-network-forum@xc.org wrote: >Originally from: "ECHO, Inc." >Originally dated: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:51:51 +0000 > >NEW FORESTS PROJECT WORLD SEED PROGRAM 1997. >The New Forests Project >provides packets of tree seeds, technical information and training >materials free of charge to groups worldwide who are interest in >starting reforestation projects with fast-growing, nitrogen- fixing >trees. Available for immediate distribution are high quality seeds of >Leuceana leucocephala (ipil-ipil), Prosopis juliflora ( squite), >Gliricidia sepium (madre de cacao), Cajanus cajan (pigeon pea), Acacia >nilotica (Egyptian thorn), Cassia siamea (yellow cassia), Acacia >auriculiformis, Acacia mearnsii (black wattle), Ac tortillis (umbrella >thorn), Albizia lebbeck (East Indian walnut), Dalbergia sissoo >(yette), Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) and Gleditsia triacanthos >(honey locust) > >For more information or to receive a reforestation packet, write to: >Felicia Ruiz, Coordinator, World Seed Program, The New Forests >Project, 731 Eighth Street, SE, Washington DC 20003, USA; Phone ( 2) >547-3800, Fax (202) 546-4784. Please provide an environmental >description of your area, including elevation, average annual >rainfall, length of rainy and dry seasons, high and low temperatures, >il characteristics and how you intend to use the trees (fuelwood, >lumber, forage, soil conservation, soil enhancement, etc.). --------------------- Forwarded message: From: echo-network-forum@xc.org ("ECHO, Inc.) Sender: owner-echo-network-forum@xc.org Reply-to: echo-network-forum@xc.org To: echo-network-forum@xc.org Date: 97-10-16 03:28:40 EDT Originally from: "ECHO, Inc." Originally dated: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:51:51 +0000 NEW FORESTS PROJECT WORLD SEED PROGRAM 1997. The New Forests Project provides packets of tree seeds, technical information and training materials free of charge to groups worldwide who are interest in starting reforestation projects with fast-growing, nitrogen- fixing trees. Available for immediate distribution are high quality seeds of Leuceana leucocephala (ipil-ipil), Prosopis juliflora ( squite), Gliricidia sepium (madre de cacao), Cajanus cajan (pigeon pea), Acacia nilotica (Egyptian thorn), Cassia siamea (yellow cassia), Acacia auriculiformis, Acacia mearnsii (black wattle), Ac tortillis (umbrella thorn), Albizia lebbeck (East Indian walnut), Dalbergia sissoo (yette), Robinia pseudoacacia (black locust) and Gleditsia triacanthos (honey locust) For more information or to receive a reforestation packet, write to: Felicia Ruiz, Coordinator, World Seed Program, The New Forests Project, 731 Eighth Street, SE, Washington DC 20003, USA; Phone ( 2) 547-3800, Fax (202) 546-4784. Please provide an environmental description of your area, including elevation, average annual rainfall, length of rainy and dry seasons, high and low temperatures, il characteristics and how you intend to use the trees (fuelwood, lumber, forage, soil conservation, soil enhancement, etc.). *********************** ECHO 17430 Durrance Rd. N. Ft. Myers, FL 33917 U.S.A. phone: 941 543 3246 fax: 941 543 5317 ECHO@xc.org http://www.xc.org/echo ********************** From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 16 12:04:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25830 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26357 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 37537 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157271-639>; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:58:50 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-3.compuserve.com (port 4129 [149.174.177.133]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157271-639> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:58:03 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id LAA22509; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710161157_MC2-2419-3491@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: re: Hmmm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Good comments of the 15th, Tom, Your point that neither we, nor many other cultures, have ever refrained from using destructive technologies is 100% on the mark, and the fact is that the whole big sad fiasco is propelled, above the root level of addiction, by the knee-jerk employment of whatever technology happens to be developed. There is probably not a case on record of a technology being developed, and then not used because of its destructiveness... Science shuns responsibility, calling this a "policy" issue -- the policy is to use everything in the arsenal if money flows as a result. This is why Milo more-correctly named the guilty parties "Capitalists". As Capitalists, we might not even APPEAR on a list of ethical societies, because ethics are not among the considerations in our use of technology, at best. Your question whether ANYONE belongs on that list is a good question, these days. Hunter-Gatherers used a simple ethic -- "take too much, everyone dies" -- to control individual and group behavior. The same rule applies to us, slowed in its action by our willingness to take the entire biosphere with us. Yeah, we white guys get a lot of kidding these days... prob'ly 'bout time... if you don't watch TV most of what's left is women's and third-worlders' anger at continuing, ever-more-ruthless economic slavery. This anger is real and aimed at the diffuse, powerful group I carelessly-named white people. Really... some of my best friends are white guys -- pinche bolillos!... Jack From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Thu Oct 16 12:07:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25871 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27225 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23967; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23719 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id LAA22509; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710161157_MC2-2419-3491@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:56:40 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: re: Hmmm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id LAA23721 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 Good comments of the 15th, Tom, Your point that neither we, nor many other cultures, have ever refrained from using destructive technologies is 100% on the mark, and the fact is that the whole big sad fiasco is propelled, above the root level of addiction, by the knee-jerk employment of whatever technology happens to be developed. There is probably not a case on record of a technology being developed, and then not used because of its destructiveness... Science shuns responsibility, calling this a "policy" issue -- the policy is to use everything in the arsenal if money flows as a result. This is why Milo more-correctly named the guilty parties "Capitalists". As Capitalists, we might not even APPEAR on a list of ethical societies, because ethics are not among the considerations in our use of technology, at best. Your question whether ANYONE belongs on that list is a good question, these days. Hunter-Gatherers used a simple ethic -- "take too much, everyone dies" -- to control individual and group behavior. The same rule applies to us, slowed in its action by our willingness to take the entire biosphere with us. Yeah, we white guys get a lot of kidding these days... prob'ly 'bout time... if you don't watch TV most of what's left is women's and third-worlders' anger at continuing, ever-more-ruthless economic slavery. This anger is real and aimed at the diffuse, powerful group I carelessly-named white people. Really... some of my best friends are white guys -- pinche bolillos!... Jack From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 16 14:11:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27713 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04744 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:06:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 52692 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157054-637>; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:05:45 -0400 Received: from root@comp.uark.edu (port 63204 [130.184.252.197]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157114-638>; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:04:52 -0400 Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA27994 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 13:04:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id SAA18892 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:05:44 GMT Message-Id: <199710161805.SAA18892@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:52:14 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Life in the Soil video update/Nature Farming X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:37:45 +0000 Reply-to: AGRISYNERGY From: Steve Diver Subject: Life in the Soil video update/Nature Farming To: AGRISYNERGY@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU > >Steve; > > > >Glad you signed on. I think you once had information on purchasing > >the video "Life In The Soil" for a really good price. Could it > >have been as low as $10? Anyway, could you check your files and > >repost? -- Rex Harrill The reference above refers to a post containing not-exactly-correct information I put on sanet over a year ago. The following threads on sanet provided the pertinent information, but since it has re-appeared here on Agrisynergy and has fueled further confusion, I offer the following information. World Sustainable Agriculture Association 8554 Melrose Ave West Hollywood, CA 90069 Tel: 310-657-7202 Fax: 310-657-3884 Email: Wsaala@igc.apc.org Web: http://www.igc.org/wsaala/wsaa.html Sells a $50 video titled "Life in the Soil" Nature Farm Research and Development Foundation 6495 Santa Rosa Rd. Lompoc, California 93436 Tel: 805-737-1536 Fax: 805-736-9599 Sells a video titled something like "The Living Soil" for about $20 And there you have it....plain and simple. I am simply reporting on a well established fact. There are two organizations in California that promote Nature Farming and each group has a video with similar sounding titles. The ATTRA Resource Center has a video titled "Life in the Soil", and it is excellent. I highly recommend it to EVERY farmer and agriculture professional. It fully supports the emerging consciousness that soil "life" is far more critical and holistic than our old way of thinking ever imagined. Using root rhizotron microphotography, it provides a glimpse into the very active underground world of soil life. To make this story even more interesting, there is a third video which is produced by the Luebke family of Austria that is (also) titled "The Living Soil." It uses advanced light microscopy to view underground images of plant roots and microbial activity, but focuses mainly on the humus crumb. The video compares soils managed via conventional farming practices that produce a flat 2-D humus crumb in contrast to soils managed organically with CMC Compost, green manures, and rotations to arrive at a 3-D humus crumb. The 3-D humus crumb is the image that blew my mind, because it looks like a cross between a brain with all its undulating patterns and a cave with all its stalagtites and stalagmites. This image was so powerful and magnificent that I aquired one slide for use in my workshops. To compare the combined learning experience of viewing the beautiful humus crumb and life in the soil, I am reminded of a passage Annie Dillard writes in her book "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"...."I had been my whole life a bell, and never knew it until at that moment I was lifted and struck." I mention the Luebke video in the same post as the Nature Farm video because for me, they speak volumes and volumes about the science and art of organic agriculture. A third image I would add to this photographic/cognitive learning experience, is the images and understanding of the soil foodweb developed by Dr. Elaine Ingham. OK, back to the story.... Very briefly for an historical insight, Nature Farming is a method first advocated in 1935 by Mokichi Okada (1882-1955), a spiritual philosopher and holistic health advocate in Japan, as an alternative to chemical farming practices. Jump to the present, due to internal strife in the decades-old core organization in Japan, there are now TWO Nature Farming organizations: * MOA Nature Farming, which is associated with WSAA in its efforts to promote sustainable agriculture around the world * Kyusei Nature Farming, which is associated with NaturFarm and NFRDF in Lompoc, California Dr. Patrick Madden, former Penn State ag economist and prominent spokesman for sustainable agriculture, is associated with WSAA and therefore more closely aligned with MOA Nature Farming. Dr. James Parr and Dr. Sharon Hornick, retired USDA soil scientists and prominent researchers in organic/sustainable soil management, are associated with Nature Farm Research and Development Foundation researh efforts and are therefore more closely aligned with Kyusei Nature Farming. Having said all this, I should add that I am confident both organizations are accomplishing honorable goals and helping organic agriculture in their own way. Diversity is a universal principle of sustainable agriculture. More.... NFRDF is the group associated with sponsoring four international conferences on Kyusei Nature Farming. The proceedings of the international conferences are the most informative publications on Kyusei Nature Farming that exist. Like the IFOAM proceedings, they should be in every land-grant university library. Kyusei Nature Farming is the group working with Effective Microorganisms, or EM, developed by the Japanese research horticulturist Dr. Teruo Higa, University of the Ryukyus in Okinawa, Japan. Kyusei Nature Farming, in addition, is the group more closely aligned with the spiritual organization called Johrei Fellowship which promotes the energetic healing system known as Johrei. It is in this latter regard that Kyusei Nature Farming and Biodynamic Farming have something in common. They are both based on sound agronomic husbandry practices akin to traditional organic farming, but in addition to all of the regular organic farming practices such as crop rotation, strip cropping, green manures, composts, rock minerals, etc., NF and BDF rely on inoculants to enhance microbial activity or infuse homeopathic energies. Lastly, Nature Farming and Biodynamic Farming are grounded in an underlying spiritual philosophy. ============================================== Some helpful URL's on Nature Farming: MOA International http://www.moa.or.jp/ Nature Farming International Research and Development Center http://www.saitama-j.or.jp/~nexus/nature/jino.html Johrei Fellowship http://www.johrei.com/ Johrei Centers http://www.lovelight.com/johrei.html ============================================ Steve Diver ATTRA -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 17 00:02:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03996 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14268 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 53373 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157396-626>; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:56:58 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@marine.sonic.net (port 1413 [208.201.224.37]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157387-626>; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:56:42 -0400 Received: (qmail 22920 invoked from network); 17 Oct 1997 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Oct 1997 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from default (d43.pm15.sonic.net [208.201.231.43]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA24791; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:56:24 -0700 Message-Id: <3446E3B9.D3C@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:04:09 -0700 Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Keith Johnson To: permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Local (SFBay Area) seed exchange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-envelope-info: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 I don't know how many subscribers we have in the Bay Area, but I thought I'd pass on the word about Occidental Arts and Ecology's immediately upcoming SEED EXCHANGE AND POTLUCK on Sat the 18th of Oct, 97 from 3-6 at 15290 Coleman Valley Rd. Tremendous diversity will be offered. Learn how to collect, process, and store your own. -- Keith keithdj@sonic.net From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 17 00:08:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04040 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15639 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18205; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17709 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22919 invoked from network); 17 Oct 1997 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 17 Oct 1997 04:00:53 -0000 Received: from default (d43.pm15.sonic.net [208.201.231.43]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA24791; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:56:24 -0700 Message-Id: <3446E3B9.D3C@sonic.net> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:04:09 -0700 Reply-To: keithdj@sonic.net Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Keith Johnson To: permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Local (SFBay Area) seed exchange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-envelope-info: X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 I don't know how many subscribers we have in the Bay Area, but I thought I'd pass on the word about Occidental Arts and Ecology's immediately upcoming SEED EXCHANGE AND POTLUCK on Sat the 18th of Oct, 97 from 3-6 at 15290 Coleman Valley Rd. Tremendous diversity will be offered. Learn how to collect, process, and store your own. -- Keith keithdj@sonic.net From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 18 15:28:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25748 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00788 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 61848 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156988-14716>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:13:47 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-9.compuserve.com (port 4181 [149.174.177.139]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157244-14716> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:12:46 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id PAA22706; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710181512_MC2-2452-C3AA@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Dynamic accumulator list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Here's an incomplete list of Dynamic Accumulators... can't remember some of these species names off the top of my head... if anyone can add nutrients and/or plants to this list, please post the additions to the group! Jack APPENDIX D: DYNAMIC NUTRIENT ACCUMULATORS In theory, at least, all plants are dynamic accumulators, since all plants will contain more or less of some particular nutrient(s) according to their own needs. In this area, there is room for some interesting research - for instance, human and animal nutritional studies have information on particular nutrients to be found in concentration in different plants. Further, plants differ in their incorporation of carbon (plant equivalent of human dietary fiber, sort-of), so that elements other than those traditionally seen as "nutrients" need also to be considered (carbon, for example, is needed for balancing nitrogenous materials in composts and mulches and is central to soil humus production). Healthy accumulator plants existing in quantity in an area can be considered as indicators for presence in the soil of their corresponding minerals. In pastures and composts -- as in Human and animal nutrition -- complete supply of all needs relies less on "scientific" design for minimum species needed (multi-vitamin approach), and more on inclusion of a balanced mix of as-wide-as-possible a variety of different plants (balanced-diet approach). Alfalfa (Medicago sativa... other Medicagos?): Nitrogen, Iron, Phosphorous. Borage: Silica and Potassium. Buckwheat (Fagopyrum spp): Phosphorous. Carrots (Dauca carota -- sp?): Magnesium and Potassium. Cattail (Typha): Nitrogen. Chickweed (Stellaria): Potassium, Phosphorous, Manganese. Cleavers (Gallium spp.): Sodium, Calcium. Clovers: Nitrogen, Phosphorous. Comfrey: Silica, Nitrogen, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Iron. Dandelion: Sodium, Silica, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous, Iron, Copper. Dock (Rumex crispus... Sorrel, R. acetosa?): Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous. Horsetail (Equisetum spp.): Silica. Lamb's Quarters (Chenopodium alba, gigantium... Epazote, C. ambrosioides?): Nitrogen, Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous, Manganese. Marigold (Tagetes spp.): Phosphorous. Mustard (Juncea spp... Cole plants in general are high in Ca and P): Calcium (can be used as a cover crop to buffer acid soils if calcuim is present, or to chelate Ca in same), Nitrogen, Iron. Oats (Avena sativa): Nitrogen; oats produce more growth in late fall/early winter than in spring (unlike ryegrass and wheat, which produce more in spring -- 55-65% of season total in fall for oats, as opposed to 38% for "Elbon" rye and about the same for wheat). Oats are not as winter-hardy as "Elbon" rye, nor do they yield as much over the season, but the above varieties will yield more dry matter during the fall season. Ryegrass: Nitrogen (ryegrass produces the most "forage" [read "green matter"] of the conventional winter cover crops). From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Sat Oct 18 15:41:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26266 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03233 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22643; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-9.compuserve.com (hil-img-9.compuserve.com [149.174.177.139]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22371 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id PAA22706; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710181512_MC2-2452-C3AA@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: Dynamic accumulator list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id PAA22372 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 Here's an incomplete list of Dynamic Accumulators... can't remember some of these species names off the top of my head... if anyone can add nutrients and/or plants to this list, please post the additions to the group! Jack APPENDIX D: DYNAMIC NUTRIENT ACCUMULATORS In theory, at least, all plants are dynamic accumulators, since all plants will contain more or less of some particular nutrient(s) according to their own needs. In this area, there is room for some interesting research - for instance, human and animal nutritional studies have information on particular nutrients to be found in concentration in different plants. Further, plants differ in their incorporation of carbon (plant equivalent of human dietary fiber, sort-of), so that elements other than those traditionally seen as "nutrients" need also to be considered (carbon, for example, is needed for balancing nitrogenous materials in composts and mulches and is central to soil humus production). Healthy accumulator plants existing in quantity in an area can be considered as indicators for presence in the soil of their corresponding minerals. In pastures and composts -- as in Human and animal nutrition -- complete supply of all needs relies less on "scientific" design for minimum species needed (multi-vitamin approach), and more on inclusion of a balanced mix of as-wide-as-possible a variety of different plants (balanced-diet approach). Alfalfa (Medicago sativa... other Medicagos?): Nitrogen, Iron, Phosphorous. Borage: Silica and Potassium. Buckwheat (Fagopyrum spp): Phosphorous. Carrots (Dauca carota -- sp?): Magnesium and Potassium. Cattail (Typha): Nitrogen. Chickweed (Stellaria): Potassium, Phosphorous, Manganese. Cleavers (Gallium spp.): Sodium, Calcium. Clovers: Nitrogen, Phosphorous. Comfrey: Silica, Nitrogen, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Iron. Dandelion: Sodium, Silica, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous, Iron, Copper. Dock (Rumex crispus... Sorrel, R. acetosa?): Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous. Horsetail (Equisetum spp.): Silica. Lamb's Quarters (Chenopodium alba, gigantium... Epazote, C. ambrosioides?): Nitrogen, Calcium, Potassium, Phosphorous, Manganese. Marigold (Tagetes spp.): Phosphorous. Mustard (Juncea spp... Cole plants in general are high in Ca and P): Calcium (can be used as a cover crop to buffer acid soils if calcuim is present, or to chelate Ca in same), Nitrogen, Iron. Oats (Avena sativa): Nitrogen; oats produce more growth in late fall/early winter than in spring (unlike ryegrass and wheat, which produce more in spring -- 55-65% of season total in fall for oats, as opposed to 38% for "Elbon" rye and about the same for wheat). Oats are not as winter-hardy as "Elbon" rye, nor do they yield as much over the season, but the above varieties will yield more dry matter during the fall season. Ryegrass: Nitrogen (ryegrass produces the most "forage" [read "green matter"] of the conventional winter cover crops). From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 18 16:04:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26480 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08620 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 64302 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157600-14716>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:58:49 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 56592 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157564-14716>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:58:33 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26470 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 16:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA25652 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: nitrogen & nitrogen fixation - general information (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 Date: Sun, 12 Oct 97 20:43:52 Newsgroups: rec.gardens.ecosystems From: kjohnsto@mesastate.edu (karen johnstone) Subject: Re: Nitrogen fixing beans I'm not a botanist, and don't have expert information, but somehow the thread still seems to lack information. I recently did a modeling project on nitrogen cycling with cowpeas/corn. Had to find a lot of specific numbers. Conclusions I came up with from my research: The nitrogen fixed by the rhyzobial bacteria is only a part of the total nitrogen returned to the soil by a legume crop. In the case of large nitrogen contributors, like cowpeas and fava beans, the decay of the top growth is the major contributor. During the growth stages, legumes will deplete nitrogen in competition with other crops in an intercropped system. In soils where nitrogen is deficient, the contribution is most significant. Given the figures that I have seen, they must pull some nitrogen from the air, since the organic nitrogen present in the above ground part of the plants far exeeds the available nitrogen from the soil at the time of planting. If surplus nitrogen is present, the legumes will take all of their nitrogen needs from the soil. I can only assume, until someone with expert information tells me otherwise, that in the poor-soil situation, the legumes have the ability to pull nitrogen from the air. (Which should be easy for a plant, which is so very good at pulling a much less plentiful gas, CO2, from the air). The nitrogen must come from somewhere, since a rotation of legumes will leave a field with a higher nitrogen level than it started with. Subject: Re: Nitrogen fixing beans Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 01:49:51 From: allyn@u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) Newsgroups: rec.gardens.ecosystems In article , kjohnsto@mesastate.edu (karen johnstone) wrote: > The nitrogen fixed by the rhyzobial bacteria is only a part of the total > nitrogen returned to the soil by a legume crop. In the case of large > nitrogen contributors, like cowpeas and fava beans, the decay of the top > growth is the major contributor. The legume is often able to put on so much top growth only because of the nitrogen fixing bacteria...the nitrogen they fix doesn't all stay in the roots, but is used by the plant to build the proteins that make up it's body. > Given the figures that I have seen, they must pull some nitrogen from the > air, since the organic nitrogen present in the above ground part of the > plants far exeeds the available nitrogen from the soil at the time of > planting. If surplus nitrogen is present, the legumes will take all of > their nitrogen needs from the soil. I can only assume, until someone with > expert information tells me otherwise, that in the poor-soil situation, the > legumes have the ability to pull nitrogen from the air. (Which should be > easy for a plant, which is so very good at pulling a much less plentiful > gas, CO2, from the air). Any nitrogen used in excess of what's already available from the soil does come from the air, but it has to come by means of the nitrogen fixing bacteria. Plants can't do it on their own. It isn't that they can't absorb nitrogen molecules from the atmosphere, but they can't _use_ those molecules in that form. The chemical structure surrounding an element is all-important, and that easily gets lost in the common conversational shorthand of just saying 'nitrogen' in a variety of contexts, when what we really mean is more complex, and differently complex in different contexts. The 'nitrogen' found in soil that's usable by plants is usually nitrate (NO3-), nitrite (NO2-), urea (CO(NH2)2) and ammonium (NH4+). Atmospheric nitrogen is in the form of N2; the bond between those two nitrogen atoms is quite strong and hard to break apart, and plants haven't learned the trick. There's a lot of chemistry involved in getting from N2 to NO3- or any of the other common forms, and it's pretty expensive chemistry--it usually takes a fair bit of energy to do it. It's that entire chemical process that we mean when we say that the nitrogen is 'fixed'. Because plants don't have the right kind of cellular factories to do the fixing themselves, they need to make do with what's already in the soil (most plants), hire bacteria to produce some extra primarily for them (legumes, alders), capture and eat insects (sundews, fly traps), or capture and eat large mammals (trifids, slaver sunflowers, and a few victorian orchids). >From Ken Killham's _Soil Ecology_, the organisms that can convert atmospheric nitrogen to more complex and more useable nitrogen compounds are: ) free living bacteria such as Bacillus, Klebsiella and Clostridium ) bacteria of genus Rhizobium, mainly in legume root nodules ) actinomycetes of the genus Frankia, mainly in non-legume root nodules (such as alders) ) free living cyanobacteria (formerly blue-green algae) on the soil surface (genera Nostoc and Anabaena) ) symbiotic cyanobacteria such as are found in some lichens [this is an important source of N in pacific NW forests] ) bacteria loosely associated with the roots of certain plants, sometimes called 'rhizocoenoses'; includes Azobacter, Beijerinckia and Azospirillum ) some soil animals may be able to fix nitrogen without relying on bacteria in their gut, but this isn't certain, and in any case would be ecologically insignificant. Other sources of fixed nitrogen in soil are lightning, synthetic fertilizers, and some comes from air pollution such as nitrates in car exhaust (about 40 kg per hectare per year in Europe). (Air pollution nitrates are yet another threat to native plant populations which are well adapted to N-poor soils but are easily overrun by weedy exotics when the nitrogen level increases. 'Good' soil isn't always a good thing!) -- Allyn Weaks allyn@u.washington.edu PNW Native Wildlife Gardening: http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/ Any advertisements sent to any of my email accounts will be billed $25 per message, $1 per character, including all header lines. No exceptions. Sending such mail constitutes agreement to these terms. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 18 20:09:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA28310 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03740 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 38906 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157642-14716>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:04:26 -0400 Received: from IDENT-NONSENSE@sand.dsrt.com (port 1083 [207.211.42.2]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157644-14717>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:04:10 -0400 Received: from [207.211.42.92] by dsrt.com id 901b0.wrk; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:00:54 -0600 Message-Id: <34495537.1DEA@dsrt.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:32:57 -0700 Reply-To: jenny@dsrt.com Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jenny To: "permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: ZONE ZERO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 ZONE ZERO Permaculture Drylands Institute offers a Zone Zero workshop with John Wallace, Vicki Marvick, and Ben Haggard For registration and information? Call the PDI office at 505/983-0663 To bring a Zone Zero workshop to your community, call John at 505/983-0663. e-mail: PDrylands@aol.com http://members.aol.com/pdrylands/PDIhome1.htm November 14-16, Tucson, Arizona “..everything we think and do affects the whole: ourwhole/holy selves, our families, our communities, the earth as a whole, and even the vast universe.” Susun Weed, Healing Wise Human consciousness forms the “ground” of our inner landscape. In this workshop, we move from healing the land around us to healing the disconnection within ourselves, our families, and our communities. We will create an environment for exploring the whole of our selves, ultimately bringing our insights outward—into family and community, landscape, and garden. We will explore these themes: • Developing awareness of our unique, essential nature. What is our unique purpose in life? • Contacting the healthy, whole being within. Which parts of ourselves do we express and which do we block? Are we using our full creative potential? • Assessing relationship with self and others. Do the energetic flows in our lives support us fully in our purpose? Where do we experience resistance, discomfort and pain? • Making connections. How can we connect with our unique, expansive wisdom? What catalyzes change? How can resistance be an ally in growth and healing? What skills do we need to be in healthy relationship with self and others? Join us for an empowering journey into self and community. About the Facilitators: John Wallace has a broad background which includes experience as a business consultant, teacher and group facilitator. He currently works as a consultant, creating business plans for organizations and projects worldwide. He is Executive Director of Permaculture Drylands Institute, and also leads wilderness vision quests. Some years ago John developed “The Business of You”—the workshop which evolved into Zone Zero—drawing from his experience as a teacher and business consultant. Vicki Marvick, past Executive Director of Permaculture Drylands Institute and editor of Permaculture Drylands Journal, came to permaculture work after five years as a midwife, obstetric nurse, and nursing instructor. Her article, First Garden—described by Lea Harrison as “a significant contribution to putting humanity into permaculture”—initiated a year-long internal exploration of permaculture’s application to personal healing. Most recently, Vicki has coordinated PDI’s first organizational assessment. Ben Haggard wrote Living Community: A Permaculture Case Study at Sol y Sombra, a book chronicling the regeneration of human community and landscape on the well-known permaculture site in Santa Fe. His articles on permaculture have appeared in national publications, and his landscape design work has been featured in Architectural Digest, Organic Gardening and Garden Design magazines. Since 1994, he has taught advanced courses and led teacher trainings for Permaculture Drylands Institute. Motivated by his own empowering experience with “The Business of You” workshop several years ago, Ben helped evolve the Zone Zero workshop. This workshop is non-residential; fee includes lunches. Prerequisite: Permaculture Design Course. Workshop limited to twenty participants. Out of town participants may call for assistance in finding lodging. Fee: $225 Non-refundable deposit of $75 holds a place in the workshop. Visa and Master card accepted. Snail mail: PDI PO. Box 156, Santa Fe, NM 87504 For registration and information? Call the PDI office at 505/983-0663 To bring a Zone Zero workshop to your community, call John at 505/983-0663. e-mail: PDrylands@aol.com http://members.aol.com/pdrylands/PDIhome1.htm From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 18 20:10:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA28333 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04012 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 39038 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157645-14717>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:05:27 -0400 Received: from IDENT-NONSENSE@sand.dsrt.com (port 1084 [207.211.42.2]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157644-14718>; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:05:12 -0400 Received: from [207.211.42.92] by dsrt.com id 90230.wrk; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 18:01:06 -0600 Message-Id: <34495A72.1ED0@dsrt.com> Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 17:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: jenny@dsrt.com Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jenny To: "permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Patterning Intensive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 PERMACULTURE DRYLANDS INSTITUTE : PATTERNING INTENSIVE XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX DATE: November 6-9 (form 9am to 5 pm) We are almost at capacity!! Call soon if you are interested. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ LOCATION: EARTHWORKS Santa Fe, New Mexico ------------------------------------------------------------------------ INSTRUCTORS: Tim Murphy and Ben Haggard ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PDI (Permaculture Drylands Institute) P.O. Box 156 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504 Need more information? Call Jenny (505) 983-0663 e-mail: PDrylands@aol.com http://members.aol.com/pdrylands/PDIhome1.htm ======================================================================== Life takes its form from the flows that move through it, and the forces that pass over it. Interaction between functional needs and dynamic flow shapes living organisms, structures, and systems. The ability to "read" patterns brings us into dynamic relationship with landscape, changing our perception of ourselves and the world around us forever. Through Patterning, we apply the dynamics of flow in nature to the design of homes, farms, and communities. Patterning allows the designer to weave natural and human energy patterns within an integrated whole. Using patterning, we can assess and manage a sophisticated body of information, and reach design conclusions quickly and accurately. We possess a natural, inborn awareness of patterns. However, as members of a symbol literate society, our pattern recognition skills often atrophy. Whether you are a permaculture designer wanting to heighten your design skills, a permaculture teacher seeking a better understanding of this crucial area of permaculture knowledge, or applying permaculture concepts in your own life, this workshop will immerse you in pattern observation and patterning practice, enhancing your skills and awareness. It aims to ======================================================================== - reawaken innate pattern recognition skills, building upon participants' current understanding and state of awareness -provide experience with extrapolating the patterns and dynamics of flow from one to another - apply pattern understanding to the design process Workshop activities include field outings, >>>>>>AERIAL FLYOVER<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< group discussion and projects, slide presentations, and experiential exercises. Date: November 6-9 (form 9am to 5 pm) We are almost at capacity!! Call soon if you are interested. Location: EARTHWORKS INSTITUTE Santa Fe, New Mexico Instructors: Tim Murphy and Ben Haggard ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FEE: $525 Credit cards accepted, non-refundable deposit of $175 holds a place in the workshop. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PREREQUISITE: Basic Permaculture Design Course This is an advanced course and requires a deep understanding of Permaculture Philosophy and Design. ------------------------------------------------------------- PDI (Permaculture Drylands Institute) P.O. Box 156 Santa Fe, New Mexico 87504 Need more information? Call Jenny (505) 983-0663 e-mail: PDrylands@aol.com http://members.aol.com/pdrylands/PDIhome1.htm From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sun Oct 19 12:49:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07985 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16674 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 50899 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158248-16232>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:42:38 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout02.mx.aol.com (port 3417 [198.81.11.93]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158249-16228>; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:40:16 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA10686 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971019123943_537637853@emout02.mail.aol.com> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: nitrogen & nitrogen fixation - general information (fwd) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 In a message dated 10/18/97 3:59:18 PM, you wrote: [snip] >During the growth stages, legumes will >deplete nitrogen in competition with other crops in an intercropped system. >In soils where nitrogen is deficient, the contribution is most significant. >Given the figures that I have seen, they must pull some nitrogen from the >air, since the organic nitrogen present in the above ground part of the >plants far exeeds the available nitrogen from the soil at the time of >planting. If surplus nitrogen is present, the legumes will take all of >their nitrogen needs from the soil. [snip] Larry there are a few matters to consider here that you haven't included. First, whether or not a legume competes for N with other plants depends on the legume. Some exude N from their roots. CF Duke: Handbook of Legumes of World Economic Importance, for info. Legume grass pastures are well known to be very sustainable and higher yielding than either component alone. Legumes do take N from the air, but the air in the soil, through the roots. I know of no examples where a legume translocates this from the leaves, etc. Compacted soil therefore results in minimal nodulation and virtually no fixation. Maybe there are exceptions, particularly among those relatively few nitrogen fixing legumes that tolerate water-saturated soils, such as joint vetch. This bears examination, but if the N is translocated, it will be through special organs comparable to the knees of bald cypress, and not to a general characteristic. While most crop legumes fix N, it is important to not that most legume species, have shown no such symbiotic association with legumes. Needless to say, the N fixers are more prevalant because of their adaptability. In pastures where c-4 grasses are mixed with legumes, such as white colover (T repens), the act of cropping the legume STIMULATES N-fixation. Moreover, research has shown that N in the form of protein does not depress N-fixation (though the protein decomposes over the course of the studies) while N in the form of soluble chemicals does depress N fixation. This has been studied for Rhizobia. I have no idea if it holds true for Frankia such as fix nitrogen in symbiosis with various non-legumes such as alders, eleagnus spp, sweet fern, myrtle, etc. We have been having very good success using broadcast legume seed into untilled ground as part of pasture restoration. The soil here showed very little legume activity, which concerned me as legumes are often an essential source of phosphorous for growing cattle. As the area was wet (mostly flooded) when we took title a bit less than a year ago, we used joint vetch as it thrives in wet areas in warm climates. First I tried mixing some seed with grain, sticking the small legumes seeds to cracked corn with a touch of molasses stirred in. Clovers are often planted in this manner in New England (USA), where I am from. The joint vetch germinated but died out due to the unusually dry summer here and the propensity of manure to wick moisture away to evaporation. Next I tried broadcasting seed (mixed with sand and limestone for an evener spread) and mowing weeds and coarse stems not eaten by the steer. The organic debris I left to cover the seed. I mowed very low, partially to causes as much damage as possible to buttonbush which is a serious pasture pest that has been allowed to take over areas here in the past decade. (Any uses for buttonbush would be most appreciated.) We planted when rain was forcast and were very lucky that it did indeed rain. We have an excellent stand that, in places, has been grazed through three rotations now in addition to grass. The steer seems to graze the joint vetch and grass equally. As conditions dried (water table dropped nearly six feet during the "rainy season" -- someone is stealing water!), I broadcast cowpeas, again with mostly lucky timing regarding rain and mosture. In the lowest pasture where most of the jointvetch is growing, I selectively broadcast in places where it was not thickly established. There I set the mow er (we use a walk-behind sickle bar mower) to the highest setting to spare the "vetch>" The joint vetch recovered nicely and is now in full bloom with a fresh set of seed forming. When there is enough mature seed, I'll return the steer to eat the vetch, seed and all as a means to further spread the seed. It should remain dormant until warmer weather, by which time the manure will have melted back into the soil. The cowpeas are doing well. Grasses continue to grow well and show no sign of competition from the legumes. In drier paddocks, which were also cut close for weed control, it took several rains for the cowpeas to develop. In one paddock, apparently there was not enough moisture consistently and we have had poor establishment. In another which contains a mix of moisture conditions, the cowpeas established quickly in the moister areas--enough so that I could allow a few days of light grazing to top them off, as well as some palatable "weeds" that had reseeded, and keep them from canopying over the grasses. This worked nicely and we are now getting some flowering. Meanwhile, all of the joint vetch is in blossom simultaneously, regardless of planting time, which leads me to conclude it is photopheriodic. Blossoming commenced at or shortly after the fall equinox. Seed set is excellent and I've seen more bees foraging there than I suspected we had around here. This last week, I've now broadcast rye grass. The "wet" paddocks have an excellent winter (cool weather) grass, but most have bermuda grass which barely grows at all in the winter here. As the warm season annual legumes give it up, presumably the above ground parts being grazed, I expect a release of nitrogen to give the rye a boost to increase cool-season grazing. Overall I expect that grazing will get better, if anything, if we can get at least modest rainfall. Control of serious pasture weeds has been excellent, both herbaceous and woody weeds are obvously much stressed and reduced invigor while grasses are responding to the mowing and legumes are doing their thing. Yes, we have an agroforestry component slowly coming into place. Forage bamboo is being planted in some areas and timber bamboo in others where shade limits graziang anyway. Tree crops are laid out parallel to fencelines so that as fencing deteriorates we can transfer lines to the trees. Myrtle in particular is being encouraged as an indigenous N-fixing shrub that also gives a great deal of protection from flies. (The steer has almost no flies on him when he rests in the myrtle. Sometimes he just walks through a thicket to ditch the flies on the other side. He can recognize the myrtle in a new paddock and immediately makes use of it..) We have some jujube genus and honey locusts planted in the pasture so far. Wet areas will be heavily planted to mayhaws, which will be more of a commercial crop for us than beef, which we will use in the understory. Deer seem to like to browse the mayhaws, but I think they will hold up once they are bearing age--meanwhile we have protected them. As we recover pastures, there is less cover for deer and I'm happy to eat all I can get. We are also allowing a number of the native oak seedlings to stand for shade and fall forage--even while still a small calf, the steer liked these acorns. The legumes, fixing away nitrogen, are key to accelerating the development of this new system on worn out land, run as one big pasture for a horse, and not managed in any useful way after perimeter fencing. The amount of improvement we have seen in one season using these techniques is already impressive. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 20 12:46:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA22818 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16423 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 65148 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157638-3068>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:40:47 -0400 Received: from root@cruzio.com (port 4605 [165.227.254.2]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157897-3065>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:40:12 -0400 Received: from sky207.cruzio.com (sky207.cruzio.com [207.251.11.207]) by cruzio.com with ESMTP id JAA28946; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710201652.JAA28946@cruzio.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:31:53 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Bareis, Santa Cruz" To: "Permaculture list" , Subject: Invasive non native species MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 Ref; Potential Invasiveness During a recent trip to Southwest China we were traveling with a group of Chinese botantists -the subject of non-native plants came up into the conversation, -in that area apart from the ubiquitous ecalyptus plantations there were surprizingly few introduced plants in the landscape. To our surprize the story of an invasive non-native Eupytorium sp. originally from Central America, and how it has been estimated to have invaded fully 30% of the tillable land in sub-tropical China. This particular weed is so toxic that even goats won't touch it! And more labor is spent each year in trying to eradicate Eupytorium than in re-forrestation efforts. We all have corollaries to the Eupatorium in South China, invasive plants that have escaped horticultural boundaries into our landscape and are creating havoc with farming. Basically the problem appears that as bio-diversity is changed through introduction of non-native species the potential that some percentage of the introduced horticultural plants become naturalized and begin to expand their foothold. Regions with mild climates seem the most at risk to non-native species, and recently regional environmental planners have begun to site the problems of maintaining natural plant communities into the future. Also habitat destruction by invading species makes it necessary to enter fragile areas to try to separate and eradicate non-native plants. The fact that the invasive issue has not taken center stage is that many of the species are or were originally interesting horticultural species. Here in Central Coastal California the list of non-native invasive species now outnumbers the native forest and grassland species! The subject is further complicated when we consider the invasive potential of non-native fungus spore. Phytothera genus fungus spore are a huge problem in nursery soils. Now escaped this non-native spore has destroyed the magnificent Chamycyparis lawsontonia (Port Orford Cedars) and on the East Coast the fungus Discula destructiva, threatens the Cornus florida, eastern dogwoods. These invasions were driven by horticultural plantings of non native species and we as plant lovers should be aware that this whole historical example which is playing out in our own forests has occured before, European native forests were harvested and depleated by fungal blight before Elizabeth I, sent Raleigh to the new world in search of new and different plant species to "renew the forests". Perhaps as we expand our own collections of rare and different plants we should be aware of the incredibly complicated and slow moving process that we are setting into motion. Planting trees and bamboo increases the intellectual interaction between ourselves and the natural world but to begin to recreate the complexity of healthy environments we need to see beyond the quick returns of agro-forestry; towards ways to stabilize healthy forests with natural diversity. There is a direction in the permaculture and new horticulture movements recently. The ideal of planting a tree or bamboo that grows fast enough so that we can not only enjoy it's shade but harvest its wood for "expanded productivity". The idea that we can introduce fast growing "productive" species must be balanced by the potential that some of these species in some regions WILL produce unwanted results, as their aggressive traits escape beyond intended boundaries. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 20 17:20:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27073 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10486 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:15:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35268 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158642-3065>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:14:20 -0400 Received: from root@comp.uark.edu (port 40373 [130.184.252.197]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158595-3065>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:13:46 -0400 Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA20865 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:13:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id VAA14050 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:14:45 GMT Message-Id: <199710202114.VAA14050@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:00:29 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Calcultations for rain water catchment X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 Some useful figures and calculations for rain water catchment: 1st Inches rainfall x Square feet of surface area = Amount 2nd Amount x 0.625 Factor Factor = (12-inch depth per cubic foot and 7.5 gallons per cubic foot of water) or (7.5 divided by 12 = 0.625) Example: 30-inches per year is equivalent to 18.75 gallons per of water collected from each square foot of surface area. 30-inches of rainfall collected from the roof of a 1,600 square foot home = 30,000 gallons water 30-inches of rainfall collected from the roof of a 2,500 square foot home = 46,875 gallons water Storage tank capacity will depend on total rainfall, surface area collected, seasonal rainfall patterns, and seasonal water use patterns. If ya'll got any other handy calculations and figures, please share them. Steve Diver -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 20 18:09:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27639 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25453 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 39905 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157107-3066>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:04:12 -0400 Received: from root@comp.uark.edu (port 47680 [130.184.252.197]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157374-3065>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:03:19 -0400 Received: from ncatark.uark.edu (ncatark.uark.edu [130.184.41.248]) by comp.uark.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA26117 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:03:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Unknown ([130.184.41.238]) by ncatark.uark.edu (8.6.8.1/SCA-6.6) with SMTP id WAA14644 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:04:03 GMT Message-Id: <199710202204.WAA14644@ncatark.uark.edu> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:49:47 +0000 Reply-To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Steve Diver" To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: The Duckweed Clearinghouse home page X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 Did ya'll see that cool page on duckweed at...... The Duckweed Clearinghouse Home Page http://www.prism-usa.org See full-text of out-of-print World Bank publication: Duckweed Aquaculture: A New Aquatic Farming System For Developing Countries by Paul Skillicorn, William Spira, and William Journey. The World Bank, Emena Technical Department, Agriculture Division http://www.prism-usa.org/fulltext/duckweed/duckweed.htm See Annotated Abstracts of 800 articles on duckweed http://www.prism-usa.org/abstract/reflist.htm See Other Duckweed Sites http://www.prism-usa.org/other/other.htm =========================================================== Extract: The Duckweed Clearinghouse is a project of PRISM-USA. Its purpose is to provide a single, comprehensive source of information on the duckweeds (Lemnaceae). In particular, it is intended to provide practical knowledge about the cultivation of this under-utilized family of [aquatic] plants and their use both as animal feed and as a natural wastewater treatment technology. =================================================================== Steve Diver -- steved@ncatark.uark.edu From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 20 20:37:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29305 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA05802 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 51486 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <157879-3067>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:31:49 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-10.compuserve.com (port 3876 [149.174.206.140]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157900-3067> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:31:15 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-10.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id UAA21817 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710202030_MC2-248F-4791@compuserve.com> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:30:29 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Aquaculture Plantings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 Can anyone suggest plants for a quarter-acre pond 10 to 12 feet deep, with a shallow area at one end, maybe 150 SF with depths from two feet to zero? Plants that can be obtained locally in the Ohio Valley area near Cincinnati? Gene From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mon Oct 20 21:13:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29919 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14621 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 53661 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <156949-3066>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:07:23 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@charles.dar.dwe.csiro.au (port 4442 [192.207.33.249]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <156949-3068>; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:06:50 -0400 Received: from dar-250.dar.dwe.csiro.au (dar-250.dar.dwe.csiro.au [192.207.33.250]) by charles.dar.dwe.csiro.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06418; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:46:19 +0930 (CST) Message-Id: <199710210116.KAA06418@charles.dar.dwe.csiro.au> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:38:51 +0930 Reply-To: Naomi.Rea@terc.csiro.au Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Naomi Rea" To: "Bareis, Santa Cruz" , permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Invasive non native species In-Reply-To: <199710201652.JAA28946@cruzio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 ditto to message from Santa Cruz and G'day from Australia The concept of highly productive, concentrated, low energy PC systems (food bowls) is admirable and attainable. However, the SCruz message a timely reminder about bumping up diversity with introduced non-native species. Invasives are changing the floristic identity of ecosystems and countries. Horticulture and spp introductions have alot to answer for. Of 463 exotic pastures introducted to Northern Australia, only 5% had a potential use, 13% became weeds and < 1% were both useful and not weeds (Lonsdale 1994 Aust J. Ecol). Native plants have taken squillions of years to evolve superb adaptations and strategies. Can humans really hope to do better ? Concepts such as ecosystem mimicry, landscape engineering and PC are laudable ideas for a planet facing food shortages, massive ecological change, rehabilitation of degraded environments and and in need of a new social ethic ... but, am wondering if PC really is low energy ? The native garden with bush foods, medicine, materials and fuel would have to be the ultimate low energy system. Albeit, a PC-bush garden may not be as productive as a PC-everything system, but it is ecologically safe and long term. Listening, looking and learning from natural systems, refined over centuries, may be easier than struggling to do better Naomi > Ref; Potential Invasiveness > > During a recent trip to Southwest China we were traveling with a group of > Chinese botantists -the subject of non-native plants came up into the > conversation, -in that area apart from the ubiquitous ecalyptus plantations > there were surprizingly few introduced plants in the landscape. To our > surprize the story of an invasive non-native Eupytorium sp. originally from > Central America, and how it has been estimated to have invaded fully 30% of > the tillable land in sub-tropical China. This particular weed is so toxic > that even goats won't touch it! And more labor is spent each year in > trying to eradicate Eupytorium than in re-forrestation efforts. > > We all have corollaries to the Eupatorium in South China, invasive plants > that have escaped horticultural boundaries into our landscape and are > creating havoc with farming. Basically the problem appears that as > bio-diversity is changed through introduction of non-native species the > potential that some percentage of the introduced horticultural plants > become naturalized and begin to expand their foothold. > > Regions with mild climates seem the most at risk to non-native species, > and recently regional environmental planners have begun to site the > problems of maintaining natural plant communities into the future. Also > habitat destruction by invading species makes it necessary to enter fragile > areas to try to separate and eradicate non-native plants. The fact that > the invasive issue has not taken center stage is that many of the species > are or were originally interesting horticultural species. Here in Central > Coastal California the list of non-native invasive species now outnumbers > the native forest and grassland species! > > The subject is further complicated when we consider the invasive potential > of non-native fungus spore. Phytothera genus fungus spore are a huge > problem in nursery soils. Now escaped this non-native spore has destroyed > the magnificent Chamycyparis lawsontonia (Port Orford Cedars) and on the > East Coast the fungus Discula destructiva, threatens the Cornus florida, > eastern dogwoods. These invasions were driven by horticultural plantings > of non native species and we as plant lovers should be aware that this > whole historical example which is playing out in our own forests has > occured before, European native forests were harvested and depleated by > fungal blight before Elizabeth I, sent Raleigh to the new world in search > of new and different plant species to "renew the forests". > > Perhaps as we expand our own collections of rare and different plants we > should be aware of the incredibly complicated and slow moving process that > we are setting into motion. Planting trees and bamboo increases the > intellectual interaction between ourselves and the natural world but to > begin to recreate the complexity of healthy environments we need to see > beyond the quick returns of agro-forestry; towards ways to stabilize > healthy forests with natural diversity. > > There is a direction in the permaculture and new horticulture movements > recently. The ideal of planting a tree or bamboo that grows fast enough so > that we can not only enjoy it's shade but harvest its wood for "expanded > productivity". The idea that we can introduce fast growing "productive" > species must be balanced by the potential that some of these species in > some regions WILL produce unwanted results, as their aggressive traits > escape beyond intended boundaries. > > > > > > > > From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Tue Oct 21 14:18:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11441 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26195 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57328 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158161-14914>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:03 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout40.mx.aol.com (port 4125 [198.81.11.74]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158135-14908>; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:11:48 -0400 Received: by emout40.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id OAA00637 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971021094131_-326934277@emout13.mail.aol.com> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Terrakin@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Aquaculture Plantings X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 Gene, Call the Kentucky State Research Farm in Frankfort,Ky. They just had a sustainable field day out there with a big aquaculture section. I don't know who the presenter was, but they are a great resource. They even held a "what is permaculture" workshop at the field day. Maybe they could help.... Atwood is the name of the farm . I can't find the number offhand but the Extension office in Frankfort could probably help. Good luck, Kiya Heartwood Stamping Ground, Ky. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 06:45:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA21727 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA07110 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57589 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158340-5770>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:39:44 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@mrin40.mx.aol.com (port 4405 [198.81.19.150]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157905-5770>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:39:28 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin40.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id GAA00990; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971022063730_1802030236@mrin40.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, hemencb.ufcon@shands.ufl.edu Cc: dana@pacbell.net, ElfinPDC1@aol.com, willems@iafrica.com Subject: Re: Calcultations for rain water catchment X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 Hi Steve: I don't understand where your figures come from or how you used them, but somehow we you got to the right answer! The basic formula for volume of container with vertical sides (rainfall should be considered as a vertical accumulation of water) is h x w x l = V where the letters stand for height, width, length and volume. Needless to say, it is necessary to use the same unit of measure. This is where most of the world, using the metric system, have it much easier than the USA. In the rooftop example, the calculation is much simplified if you use 2.5 feet instead of 30 inches. You have l x w, the area, already so you multiply that times 2.5 and you get 6,250 CUBIC FEET of water. It is a simple matter now to convert to gallons, multiply times the number of gallons in a cubic foot, 7.4. (I've won more ice cream sundaes betting on this number than I care to recall.) This gives us 46,250 gal, close enough. People need to remember a couple of other things. 1) The area of the roof is irrelevant. It is the horizontal area covered by the roof that you measure. The steeper the roof, the more area the roof has to cover the area under it. However this does not cause any more rain to fall! You would be surprised at how many people get confused by this. 2) In storing water, it is important to have some idea of the weight of the water in order to build a strong-enough container. Water weighs 8.3 lbs. per US gallon. (An Imperial gallon is about 20 percent larger.) 3) The most conservative strong container that can be readily home-made is a cylindrical tank in which the height is about equal to the diameter. The circular cross section is strong, having no corners--the stress is even around the wall, although of course it gets more as you go deeper in the tank. It can be easily figured in pounds per sqaure foot by dividing, logically enough the weight of the water in pounds by the area. This is the pressure at the seam where the side walls come out of the pad. This is your critical area as the joint is potentially weaker than other parts of the tank. So you reinforce it, give it extra coats of waterproofing, whaterver. Also the footing of the storage tank needs to be very strong and reinforced with steel. 4) Generally if you divert all water from a roof to one tank you save money over using additional tanks. This is because the area of materials you use increases in proportion to the square of the linear increase whereas the volume increases in proportion to the cube. If the height is fixed, for example as just below the eaves, then the savings is more. This is offset by the modularity factor that is a severely undertaught issue in permaculture design. While one tank saves materials and money, with two tanks you can clean one and still have water. Modularity vs. scale is a case-by-case design decision and enters into all aspects of design. (There are elegant solutions in some cases that partly offset this issue, for example hexagonal arrays. However this does not apply here.) We generally try to get at least seven years of monthly rainfall records. Averages are interesting but we want to look at extremes. How many months rain do we need to store in order to have enough water in hand for the longest period on record with less rain than we need? For this we look at monthly rainfall and subtract monthly use. The difference is what we can accumulate against drought. The tank needs to contain all the water we will need when we go into an absolutely dry perioid. However if the rainfall tapers off over the season, we might need a tank double that size to hold enough going into the dry period. Because water is essential, we have to store all we can. Obviously, as always in permaculture design, conservation is the first resource. We can save water a lot easier than we can make it rain. This would seem to be self-evident, but a look around the state of Florida where I live shows that people are living way beyond their means as far as fresh water is concerned. For example we had a dry "rainy season" this year and the water table dropped DOUBLE THE ANNUAL AVERAGE RAINFALL ! Obviously, someone is stealing a lot of ground water from the Earth. If transporation and evaporation were double the annual rainfall transporation would drop to zero, we would be in a desert. Another factor in roof catchment design is to really work out well what to do with SURPLUS water. Anytime we have concentrated rain water, we need to do some really good design and meticulous implementation or we get water erosion and water waste. Obviously the simplest solution, in areas of moderate rainfall, is a swale that can handle all the runoff. This is part of the roof catchment design and must be stressed as such. Here we have exposed water table (read "swamp") close at hand so we can simply add to it, or we can move water through swales and get some use first, for example growing strawberry guava which likes a lot of moisture and does well in this climate. Or lemon grass. etc. In cold temperate climates, additional factors come into play. 1) What do you do with runoff when the ground is frozen solid? Generally, people use dry wells that go below the frost line--maybe four feet deep for a nominal frost line of 3 feet. There may need to be a dispersal system as often in areas that were recently (10,000 years ago) glaciated there is a hard-pan at that depth. 2) Winter catchment collection has special problems. We will assume a well insulated roof that is designed for the consequent snow/ice loads. The problems include: \ a) The water accumulates or blows off the roof as it is in solid form. So although precipitation may be adequate, available catchment may not. b) Do we want to drink this stuff? Snow is particularly "rich" in pollutants. This is because, like a rain drop, a snow flake forms around a particulate in the air. Many, if not most, particles in the air are now pollution, particularly in winter when we are unlikely to get good pollen dispersal. However a rain drop is orders of magnitude more massive than a snow-flake, so the pollution in the snow melt is orders of magnitude more concentrated. Yum. c) On the other hand, there is likely to be less organic pollution (bird shit) on the roof in winter. Trees are more comfortable than a windy, ice encrusted surface and the bird population will be down to the most hardy jays, woodpeckers & flickers, chickadees, nuthatches, etc. This is just as well, as any flush system in use to divert the first rain to an irrigation system is likely to be disabled by snw. d) If the catchment tank freezes solid, you are screwed. Again, this argues in favor of a large tank of circular dimensions (no corners to burst apart as ice expands). In areas where the temperature may not climb above -20 degrees F for a week at a time (such as where my daughter lives in Vermont), it is well to bury your tank. While it then would be conservative of materials to make a spherical tank, since you don't have to balance it--it is imbedded in Earth--you would probably have to buy this so it makes more sense to us a cylinder. However you may chose to lay the cylinder on its side. Storing the tank under an attached solar greenhouse has obvious interactive thermal advantages. Moreover, you don't have to bury it as deep and you have emergency access even in winter. While a catchment tank high enough to give at least a useful trickle by gravity is good, in this case water must always be pumped to use. A hand pump, e.g. a pitcher pump, is adequate for most families and can be adapted to charge a pressure tank for showers,e tc. It is well to have this set up, even if an electric pump is usually used, as ice storms can take out electricity for extended periods and will likely increase as climate further destabilizes. I suppose I need to say that you install your catchment tank BEFORE you build the greenhouse, preferably right after you pour your footings and/or foundation. (!) Have fun! For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 06:45:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA21736 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA07130 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57596 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158450-5771>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:39:59 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@mrin44.mx.aol.com (port 1769 [198.81.19.154]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158227-5769>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:39:43 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) id GAA29680; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971022063750_2035092893@mrin44.mail.aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 06:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, hemencb.ufcon@shands.ufl.edu Subject: Re: The Duckweed Clearinghouse home page X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 In a message dated 10/20/97 6:04:59 PM, steved@ncatark.uark.edu wrote: >Did ya'll see that cool page on duckweed at...... Hi again Steve: Well it may be called duckweed but our chickens are absolutely crazy about it. I harvest it for them (gators would harvest any poultry that tried to get their own) and they literally cram it into their mouths. These are free range with good varieties of grass, virtually unlimited supplies of palmetto bugs, etc., to forage. It is particularly useful, I think, to some white leghorns that we picked up cheap when our egg producting was too low. They have a hard time eating grass because their beaks have been bred to be blunt (!), presumably to limit canabalism in those awful cages most chickens have to live in. Most of the ones we got still have all the chicken instincts and have learned from the roosters the rest, but eating grass is tough on them. However duckweed is easy as they can get a mouthful easier than about anything else. I simply use a long-handled net of the kind used to clean swimming pools--the mesh needs to be fairly small--and dump it into bucket. Generally there are all manner of invetebrates that come along too--little treats hidden in the salad! For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 10:35:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23855 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:35:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01208 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 43216 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158445-5771>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:29:04 -0400 Received: from root@cruzio.com (port 1146 [165.227.254.2]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158628-5769>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:27:45 -0400 Received: from sky207.cruzio.com (sky207.cruzio.com [207.251.11.207]) by cruzio.com with ESMTP id HAA23044 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710221440.HAA23044@cruzio.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 07:18:29 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Bareis, Santa Cruz" To: "Permaculture list" Subject: Fw: invasive non natives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 Please when posting, if you would add the location of your perspective; As "from where I'm sitting" adds a dimension to the discussion. Here is a recent response to the discussion on introduction of "productive" species into the environment. Non-native plants and the loss of natural diversity... > Where I work, in the 100th of 1% of what's left of the great > Willamette Valley wet prairie, all of it is contaminated by non native > plants and animals...some very aggressive...and some introduced by our > well meaning government many years ago. A dozen non native pasture > grasses compete with native grasses. Pears, crabapples, regular apples, > and many other plants grown as ornamentals threaten wetlands..we have > cotoneaster, rowan, juniper spp., hawthornes (which hybridize with our > native Crataegus douglasii), pyracantha, and of coarse scotch > broom...which lumberjacks in the early 20th century noticed invading the > first regrowth after the old growth was cut here in OR. The Nature > Conservancy is dedicated to eradicating these pests wherever possible. > Some will never be completely eradicated and we must live with them. For > some there is no known method to eliminate them and the best policy is to > just leave them alone and prevent disturbing the soil. We practice fire > management here, much the same as the indiginous Kalapooya, before the > coming of non native settlers. Gil- Willamette Valley Oregon > > .- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 12:27:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25946 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16085 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:22:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 59282 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158555-5768>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:21:57 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 34817 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158397-5770>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:21:17 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25930 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA00624 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 12:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: GBlist: Living Machines (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 LIVING MACHINES ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 22 Oct 1997 02:05:19 GMT From: Michael Shaw To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Living Machines Dear All, I heard that some time ago there was considerable discussion about the application of Living Machione for waste water treatment. I was not a greenbuilding subsciber at that time unfortunately. However I will be glad to answer any questions as I am now on the list. Best Wishes, Michael Shaw (Founder along with John Todd and others and President of Living Technologies Inc of Burlington, Vermont.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 16:54:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00742 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:54:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19720 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 61093 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158726-5769>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:48:49 -0400 Received: from root@cheetah.it.wsu.edu (port 4252 [134.121.1.8]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157163-5770>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:47:19 -0400 Received: from xtsd1019.it.wsu.edu (xtsd1019.it.wsu.edu [134.121.3.199]) by cheetah.it.wsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26417 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by xtsd1019.it.wsu.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BCDEF0.B5983620@xtsd1019.it.wsu.edu>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:45:07 -0700 Message-Id: <01BCDEF0.B5983620@xtsd1019.it.wsu.edu> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:19:52 -0700 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Carl Jeffry Goebel To: "'permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu'" Subject: RE: invasive non natives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCDEF0.B5B9C7E0" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCDEF0.B5B9C7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The discussion about non-natives always amuses me. As an European = originated descendent who works with Native Americans, I am always = amused how the discussion of "those" invasive weeds, etc. seems to = forget how much mixing of the globe has gone on over the last couple of = hundred years, as well as over millions of years. Is there such a thing as "good" and "bad" species? Is eradication = realistic, or is it just another way to divert resources (money, time, = fossil energy, chemicals) from more important work? Good day. -----Original Message----- From: Bareis, Santa Cruz [SMTP:ibabambu@cruzio.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 1997 7:18 AM To: Permaculture list Subject: Fw: invasive non natives Please when posting, if you would add the location of your perspective; As "from where I'm sitting" adds a dimension to the discussion. Here is a recent response to the discussion on introduction of=20 "productive" species into the environment. Non-native plants and the loss of natural diversity... > Where I work, in the 100th of 1% of what's left of the great > Willamette Valley wet prairie, all of it is contaminated by non native > plants and animals...some very aggressive...and some introduced by our > well meaning government many years ago. A dozen non native pasture > grasses compete with native grasses. Pears, crabapples, regular = apples, > and many other plants grown as ornamentals threaten wetlands..we have > cotoneaster, rowan, juniper spp., hawthornes (which hybridize with our > native Crataegus douglasii), pyracantha, and of coarse scotch > broom...which lumberjacks in the early 20th century noticed invading = the > first regrowth after the old growth was cut here in OR. The Nature > Conservancy is dedicated to eradicating these pests wherever possible. > Some will never be completely eradicated and we must live with them. = For > some there is no known method to eliminate them and the best policy is = to > just leave them alone and prevent disturbing the soil. We practice = fire > management here, much the same as the indiginous Kalapooya, before the > coming of non native settlers. 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AAAyMg== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCDEF0.B5B9C7E0-- From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Wed Oct 22 18:37:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01786 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA19325 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 39012 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158768-5769>; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:32:05 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-1.compuserve.com (port 2057 [149.174.206.131]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158754-5771> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:28:56 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id SAA29929; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710221827_MC2-24C8-FD57@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: re: non-natives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 The issue of introduction of non-natives is an interesting one, and brings up the “both” thing again, because viable solutions don't likely exist at either extreme (as is almost always the case). On the one hand, many cases exist of aggressive non-native species or varieties wreaking continent-wide havoc. Carl Goebel’s example of Europeans in the “New World” is as strikingly-sobering as any example could be... numerous other well-known cases abound, both in and out of the plant world. On the other hand, few -- ok, none -- of us today subsist on plants and animals native to where we now live. In many-if-not-most locations this would no longer even be possible due to habitat destruction and loss of genetic diversity (as well as loss of the indigenous knowledge systems which made such locally-based subsistence possible). Blanket statements, but safe ones. Further, we have already complicated the matter by seeding most continents with a huge diversity of non-native plants, both agriculturally (as intended species and their attendant weeds), and for landscaping our cities. And many existing “wilderness” areas are now populated by plants which may be native, but were not locally indigenous before widespread soil degradation -- as with pioneering juniper and mesquite in degraded areas (western 2/3 of state) here in Texas, USA. It’s thus -- perhaps sadly -- too late for purity with regard to native plants, and at the same time it can be truly-destructive to ignore the issue altogether. There must be a painfully-narrow balancing point in the middle somewhere. In the meantime, it’s probably useful to keep in mind permaculture’s respect for diversity, together with April Sampson-Kelly’s definition of an aggressive weed (paraphrased... sorry, April): “A weed is a plant that doesn’t respect diversity”. From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Wed Oct 22 19:00:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA02068 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25948 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02129; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dub-img-1.compuserve.com (dub-img-1.compuserve.com [149.174.206.131]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28716 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-1.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id SAA29929; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:28:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710221827_MC2-24C8-FD57@compuserve.com> Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:27:41 -0400 Reply-To: jackrowe@compuserve.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Jack Rowe To: UNC Perm List , Envirolink Perm List Subject: re: non-natives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Sender: Jack Rowe X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by envirolink.org id SAA28722 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 The issue of introduction of non-natives is an interesting one, and brings up the “both” thing again, because viable solutions don't likely exist at either extreme (as is almost always the case). On the one hand, many cases exist of aggressive non-native species or varieties wreaking continent-wide havoc. Carl Goebel’s example of Europeans in the “New World” is as strikingly-sobering as any example could be... numerous other well-known cases abound, both in and out of the plant world. On the other hand, few -- ok, none -- of us today subsist on plants and animals native to where we now live. In many-if-not-most locations this would no longer even be possible due to habitat destruction and loss of genetic diversity (as well as loss of the indigenous knowledge systems which made such locally-based subsistence possible). Blanket statements, but safe ones. Further, we have already complicated the matter by seeding most continents with a huge diversity of non-native plants, both agriculturally (as intended species and their attendant weeds), and for landscaping our cities. And many existing “wilderness” areas are now populated by plants which may be native, but were not locally indigenous before widespread soil degradation -- as with pioneering juniper and mesquite in degraded areas (western 2/3 of state) here in Texas, USA. It’s thus -- perhaps sadly -- too late for purity with regard to native plants, and at the same time it can be truly-destructive to ignore the issue altogether. There must be a painfully-narrow balancing point in the middle somewhere. In the meantime, it’s probably useful to keep in mind permaculture’s respect for diversity, together with April Sampson-Kelly’s definition of an aggressive weed (paraphrased... sorry, April): “A weed is a plant that doesn’t respect diversity”. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 09:06:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09857 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14653 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 49501 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158870-15924>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:59:45 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-3.compuserve.com (port 3607 [149.174.206.133]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <157884-15924> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:54:35 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id IAA29305 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710230854_MC2-24D2-C9B8@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:54:00 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: RE: invasive non natives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 Message text written by INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu >The discussion about non-natives always amuses me. As an European originated descendent who works with Native Americans, I am always amused how the discussion of "those" invasive weeds, etc. seems to forget how much mixing of the globe has gone on over the last couple of hundred years, as well as over millions of years. Is there such a thing as "good" and "bad" species? Is eradication realistic, or is it just another way to divert resources (money, time, fossil energy, chemicals) from more important work?< I don't think it's so much a question of eradication vs. letting invasive species wreak havoc as it is a question of balance. Mother nature has her ways of balance as we all know: the predators of rabbits, for example, are balanced by the population of the rabbits; and the fox catches the weakest rabbit keeping the species strong. My understanding is that wehuman animals have our role to play in the forest ecosystems--that of the caretaker. We harvest the weakest deer to strenghten the herd, and we beat back invasive species when they threaten to take over. I wouldn't go so far as to eradicate--that has a gestapo sound to it IMO--but balance is what it's all about; that's our reason for being here, at least on one major level. In permaculture, we're seeking to recreate the forest ecosystems in our little abandoned parking lots, using species that we are familiar with as a starting point. As we tune in more and more with the way of nature, those species we choose will evolve toward what mother nature naturally puts in a forest. As our understanding of the forest grows, so too will our understanding of invasive species and how best to balance things in our role as the caretaker, or more accurately, the caregiver. Gene Monaco ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ East Tennessee Permaculture (EFMonaco@compuserve.com) Herbs, consultations, & training for total health and environmental sustainability PO Box 11851, Knoxville, TN 37939 (423) 457-4354 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 09:50:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10307 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25745 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57276 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158951-15926>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:44:13 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout32.mx.aol.com (port 4458 [198.81.11.15]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158820-15910>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:40:34 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout32.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA22441 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971023093730_-693391225@emout03.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: RE: invasive non natives X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 Hi Carl: In general, I agree. However there are really serious errors that have been made, such as introduction to goats and blackberries to various Hawaiian Islands, Introduction of Europeans, Sheep, and Cattle to New Zealand, etc. I've seen ordinary nasturiums in New Zealand smothering trees. Why? You tell me. We've all seen the landscapes destroyed by cattle, goats & sheep. On the other hand, some rampant plant species in particular are useful. Again, gorse in New Zealand is on the side of the land. Kudzu can hold soil when other human-induced degradations have been severe. In Ireland, people were blaming rhodendron for the decline of the oaks because the former were growing more as the latter declined. Actually, so far as I could tell, the oaks were going to acid rain as oaks do across the North Temperate Zone. This opened the canopy and the acid-loving rhododendrons took off, probably enjoying the slight nitrate boost as well as the additional light. As one who is among native peoples, you might discuss with them the role of elders in such matters. In any sustainable society, the elders, usually specifically chosen elders, rule on these matters. No, that species would not do here. Yes, this one would be ok. This is the way it works in tribal peoples I know, to the extent that their tribal culture persists. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 10:16:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10695 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08028 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 60695 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158980-15926>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:10:33 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-5.compuserve.com (port 2977 [149.174.177.135]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158987-15925> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:06:35 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id KAA05269 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710231006_MC2-24DE-D87C@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:05:57 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 Dan, We were talking about the Permaculture Institute because of accusatory and presumptuous sentiments that YOU expressed about it. It shouldn't be too hard for you to realize that not everyone immediately understands or is in agreement with your brash outlining of what permaculture is all about. So please don't get perturbed if someone asks you to explain yourself. Your description and complaint of all of these "new" permaculture institutes supporting Aussie teachers sounds like pure whining to me. Your version of bioregionalism is getting closer to biofascism. Who gets to define what "Natural" is? Who gets to make the rules about how to behave in a regionally-correct manner and who gets to enforce those rules? I would much rather learn about permaculture informally in the country side and never see a design certificate than take one of your standardized competency evaluations. For me that typifies the mental morass that the west is mired in... and you want MORE of it instead of less. Maybe that's what I was trying to ferret out of you, how badly do you want executive/private electronic mailing lists, teacher standardization, competency testing, design patenting, literature and logo copyrighting, organizational licensure, etc? Who do you represent, surely not just the divine lady you harald in your signature block? Furthermore, do you really know what the these "new" permaculture institutes are doing or do you just spend your time fantasizing about it so that it suits your paradigm of who's right and who's wrong? Why, if you bothered to ask US for instance we would glady tell you what we're up to, but somehow it seems too late for that. KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 10:16:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10712 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08236 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 60737 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158836-15924>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:10:45 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@dub-img-9.compuserve.com (port 3099 [149.174.206.139]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158782-15924> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:09:37 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-9.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id KAA00485 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710231005_MC2-24DE-D879@compuserve.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:05:51 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: PC Acad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Hi Jack, this is Inger. I am glad you wrote because it illustrates a good point about "national" permaculture organizations. The Permaculture Academy, is as you say, designed to be a degree granting institution, which should be accepting its first students in the year 2000. It had obtained 501(c)(3) status with the IRS and is now undertaking the process of obtaining licensure with the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education, and grant writing. The Permaculture Institute is a separate organization which will educate through different avenues such as workshops, newsletters, seminars etc. Who said there could only be one national permaculture organization? I think permaculture education is a good thing on all levels - national, regional and local. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 13:59:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14437 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04284 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 52143 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159292-15926>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:52:48 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout38.mx.aol.com (port 1675 [198.81.11.72]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158988-15925>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:59:09 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout38.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA28039 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971023125254_1210659267@emout01.mail.aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 And here, I thought, whinning is whinging. Like anything, if I don't like it, there is no obligation to buy in. Let the winnowing proceed. Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Thu Oct 23 19:21:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18918 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08480 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 46414 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158584-15910>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:15:46 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@[209.1.224.22] (port 43625 [209.1.224.22]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158584-15924>; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:15:25 -0400 Received: from dialup43.datamarkets.com.ar ([200.32.3.202]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20564 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19971023201836.083753cc@mail.geocities.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 20:18:36 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Silvia Engel To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: s_engel@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 Hi i want to unsubscribe permaculture, how do i do it??? bye From owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Fri Oct 24 08:15:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26695 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from envirolink.org (manatee.envirolink.org [207.254.90.7]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04627 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22709; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by envirolink.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA22283; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA09656; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971024080150_-359633399@emout12.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: Elfpermacl@aol.com Sender: owner-permaculture@envirolink.org Precedence: bulk From: Elfpermacl@aol.com To: jackrowe@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@envirolink.org, permaculture@listserv.unc.edu, permaculture@envirolink.org Subject: re: non-natives X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 In a message dated 10/22/97 7:02:28 PM, jackrowe@compuserve.com wrote: >The issue of introduction of non-natives is an interesting one, and brings > >up the "both" thing again, because viable solutions don't likely exist at > >either extreme (as is almost always the case). > > > >On the one hand, many cases exist of aggressive non-native species or > >varieties wreaking continent-wide havoc. Carl Goebel's example of Europeans > >in the "New World" is as strikingly-sobering as any example could be... > >numerous other well-known cases abound, both in and out of the plant world. > > > > > >On the other hand, few -- ok, none -- of us today subsist on plants and > >animals native to where we now live. In many-if-not-most locations this > >would no longer even be possible due to habitat destruction and loss of > >genetic diversity (as well as loss of the indigenous knowledge systems > >which made such locally-based subsistence possible). Blanket statements, > >but safe ones. > > > >Further, we have already complicated the matter by seeding most continents > >with a huge diversity of non-native plants, both agriculturally (as > >intended species and their attendant weeds), and for landscaping our > >cities. And many existing "wilderness" areas are now populated by plants > >which may be native, but were not locally indigenous before widespread soil > >degradation -- as with pioneering juniper and mesquite in degraded areas > >(western 2/3 of state) here in Texas, USA. > > > >It's thus -- perhaps sadly -- too late for purity with regard to native > >plants, and at the same time it can be truly-destructive to ignore the > >issue altogether. There must be a painfully-narrow balancing point in the > >middle somewhere. In the meantime, it's probably useful to keep in mind > >permaculture's respect for diversity, together with April Sampson-Kelly's > >definition of an aggressive weed (paraphrased... sorry, April): "A weed is > >a plant that doesn't respect diversity". I have to agree with Jack. I doubt that 1 percent of the participants/readers in this list under the age of 50 have ever seen an entire ecosystem. Where degradation is advanced or where obviously empty nitches exist, a truely experienced permaculturist may decide that introduction of exotics is important. Remember that in North America, north of the Mexican center of diversity, even corn, beans, tomatoes, etc. are exotics. How many people in Massachusetts and Michigan want to confine their vegetables to Jerusalem artichokes and cranberries, with crab apples (here and there, not wide spread), juneberries, and blueberries, wild, as the principal fruits--maybe some paw paws and even a few persimmons testing the northern extent of the range in Michigan. Oh, yes and brambles. Try living on American chestnut as your staple as people did when everyone lived on natives in those regions. No cabbage, broccoli, carrots, potatoes, etc. Even the native peoples brought in exotics, e.g. the Three Sisters, and moved plants way out of range, e.g. certain grapes, apios, etc., when they liked them. There are of course enough horror stories to go around. These are especially severe in island ecologies which more often than not are of a relatively narrow genetic base (except where there have been land bridges in the past.) Some of the horror stories aren't so bad as people think. Gorse, in New Zealand, for example, closes out sheep and cattle which are the ecologically destructive exotics. Native bush comes up through gorse, given a chance, tarting with NZ teatree, and re-establishes all the quicker for the nitrogen nudge. When the bush closes over, the gorse melts away. Exotic animals are always a big risk, it seems to me, and this particularly applies to domesticated carnivores, though goats, sheep, and cattle can wipe out entire ecologies by eating the photosynthetic base away, too. In my view, the bottom line is that a few weeks of training in permaculture does not qualify anyone with the knowledge, let alone wisdom, to move species around. We need a system of looking to elders for this, and frankly we don't have one. At least, if we keep all the issues before us, we can make better choices, fewer mistakes. However just one mistake can be catastropic. On the other hand, when one sees bare hillsides in Appalachia denuded by cutting and acid rain, it is easy to correctly conclude that a lot more kudzu is required. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 08:45:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26925 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10522 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 51875 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158616-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:39:47 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout07.mx.aol.com (port 1174 [198.81.11.22]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158716-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:38:27 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA04997; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971024083826_1994172307@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: KirbyFry@compuserve.com, owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 In a message dated 10/23/97 10:19:35 AM, KirbyFry@compuserve.com wrote: >Dan, > >We were talking about the Permaculture Institute because of accusatory and >presumptuous sentiments that YOU expressed about it. It shouldn't be too >hard for you to realize that not everyone immediately understands or is in >agreement with your brash outlining of what permaculture is all about. So >please don't get perturbed if someone asks you to explain yourself. > >Your description and complaint of all of these "new" permaculture >institutes supporting Aussie teachers sounds like pure whining to me. Your >version of bioregionalism is getting closer to biofascism. Who gets to >define what "Natural" is? Who gets to make the rules about how to behave >in a regionally-correct manner and who gets to enforce those rules? > >I would much rather learn about permaculture informally in the country side >and never see a design certificate than take one of your standardized >competency evaluations. For me that typifies the mental morass that the >west is mired in... and you want MORE of it instead of less. > >Maybe that's what I was trying to ferret out of you, how badly do you want >executive/private electronic mailing lists, teacher standardization, >competency testing, design patenting, literature and logo copyrighting, >organizational licensure, etc? Who do you represent, surely not just the >divine lady you harald in your signature block? > >Furthermore, do you really know what the these "new" permaculture >institutes are doing or do you just spend your time fantasizing about it so >that it suits your paradigm of who's right and who's wrong? Why, if you >bothered to ask US for instance we would glady tell you what we're up to, >but somehow it seems too late for that. > > KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; >512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] Kirby: Again you are misleading, quoting falsely, and putting words into my mouth. I had no need to go into my concerns about these organizations, which mainly comes down to the fact that they are imposed from above without reference to whether the mainstream of permaculturists wants them and and whether they get a choice as to who runs them. For wanting to see inclusive instead of dictatorial processes, you stated implied that I said permaculture would be just fine if we did not cooperate with one another. However, it seems to me that imposing an organization rather than consulting the 2500 permaculture intelligent adult permaculture design course graduates who may indeed have opinions on the matter. You are right that I did not understand that there were two organizations. Since I am pretty well plugged in to permaculture communictoins, this just indicates that this was an accomplished fact before anyone had a chance to be consulted. There are people who will like this hierachical arrangement and who will participate. OK. Regretfully, I was dead wrong when I concluded your inquiry about my views was a sincere question. Obviously you have been disingenuous from the start, using my impulse to answer sincere questions to entrap me in you flame war. I would not have answered this post except that you have committed the sin that you accuse me of. (again) You claim to understand my course and criticize it in public on false premises. We have no standardized tests. We do have standards. There is a difference. Everyone in any of our courses must make a strong contribuation to a permaculture design. In our online course, where collaboration and cooperation among the students on a design is not practical, each student completes his/her design. This is the major criterion, though there are others. This gives me a chance to evaluate the student's comprehension of what constitutes a permaculture design. The designs themselves are obviously NOT standardized--they must be site specific and student specific, though if a standard solution to a problem within the design exists, we don't require students to reinvent the wheel. We work with every student to help get the design up to par--our goal is to graduate people, not to deny them certification. The standards pertain to course content, the course reading list, time spent in instruction, and a minimum competency for a student design. We hardly expect professional designs from beginning students, though we are often pleasantly surprised. We do not expect every student, or even most students, to become professional designers. I have concerns about making people dependant on permaculturists as designers--again I opt for inclusiveness, giving people opportunities for self-empowerment by learning design whenever possible and practical. And I'm no purist--I see a need for some consulting too, but far less than teaching, at least for me. Our evaluation of a student's application for certification always takes into account the amount of growth we've seen and the proclivities of the student. I recall one case where a student's design work was just a series of questions. It was awful as design, but as a teaching instrument it was good and as a teaching instrument it indicated that he had a good grasp of the concept of permaculture design. There was no problem in passing him. I've no problem with advanced diplomas if they are given out on the basis of merit rather than rewards for irrelevant services or tokens of friendship. I say this holding 5 myself, and having seen the lack of standards, wondering if they are worth the space in the file cabinet. If the advanced diplomas will be indication of merit rather than rewards for playing ball with the appointed leadership, the effort is worthwhile. There are still risks in adopting the corporate form, all the more so since you don't seem to acknowledge them. It seems to me that you can announce the merits of these sundry organizations without trying to draw me into an arguement. I don't think promoting dissention is a way to strengthen the permaculture movement. However, when you attack my course with misinformation, I have to respond in public. You must realize that by being created as a form of decree rather than by agreement among a significant fraction of the movement, there will be many permaculturists who choose not to participate or who participate very warily. Rather than make an issue about this difference, your cause would be better served by simply announcing what God hath wroth, so to speak, and what it is intended to do in a bit more detail. Who knows, maybe I'll want to join. Do members get a vote? For the second time, Kirby, give it a rest. And if you are incapable of that, try to separate your arguments from personal attacks, please. It doesn't do permaculture any good. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 09:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27705 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28992 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57791 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159028-15714>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:52:05 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@mailgate.webfactory.co.uk (port 3186 [195.134.0.11]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158329-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:50:46 -0400 Received: from mailgate.panel-design.co.uk (mailgate.panel-design.co.uk [195.134.0.130]) by ntserv.webfactory.co.uk (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id na211887 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:47:34 +0100 Received: from ACCOUNTS [10.0.0.3] by mail.panel-design.co.uk (AltaVista Mail V2.0/2.0 BL23 listener) id 0000_0047_3450_9923_6ac1; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:48:35 +0100 Received: by accounts with Microsoft Mail id <01BCE083.DB7BEA00@accounts>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:50:58 +-100 Message-Id: <01BCE083.DB7BEA00@accounts> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:50:51 +-100 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Andrew Smith To: "'permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu'" Subject: RE: Unsubscribe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCE083.DB8CB2E0" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE083.DB8CB2E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me too! ---------- From: Silvia Engel[SMTP:s_engel@geocities.com] Sent: 23 October 1997 21:18 To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Hi i want to unsubscribe permaculture, how do i do it??? bye ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE083.DB8CB2E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjoMAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AGABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAGEAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABwZXJtYWN1bHR1cmVAbGlzdHNlcnYub2l0LnVuYy5lZHUAU01UUABwZXJtYWN1bHR1 cmVAbGlzdHNlcnYub2l0LnVuYy5lZHUAAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACIA AABwZXJtYWN1bHR1cmVAbGlzdHNlcnYub2l0LnVuYy5lZHUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgAB MAEAAAAkAAAAJ3Blcm1hY3VsdHVyZUBsaXN0c2Vydi5vaXQudW5jLmVkdScAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAA U01UUDpQRVJNQUNVTFRVUkVATElTVFNFUlYuT0lULlVOQy5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAC AfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADdU4BCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEA EAAAAFJFOiBVbnN1YnNjcmliZQB2BQEFgAMADgAAAM0HCgAYAA0AMgAzAAUAbQEBIIADAA4AAADN BwoAGAANADIAFQAFAE8BAQmAAQAhAAAAMjUxNUYxODY1NjRDRDExMTlEREYwMDQwMzMzMzBGQkYA AAcBA5AGAPwCAAASAAAACwAjAAEAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAAHZUdXvg vAEeAHAAAQAAABAAAABSRTogVW5zdWJzY3JpYmUAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbzge3VDhvEVJkxWEdGd 3wBAMzMPvwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABoAAABhbmRyZXdAcGFuZWwtZGVz aWduLmNvLnVrAAAAAwAGEABCCowDAAcQoAAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAE1FVE9PLS0tLS0tLS0tLUZS T006U0lMVklBRU5HRUxTTVRQOlNFTkdFTEBHRU9DSVRJRVNDT01TRU5UOjIzT0NUT0JFUjE5OTcy MToxOFRPOlBFUk1BQ1VMVFVSRUBMSVNUU0UAAAAAAgEJEAEAAACEAQAAgAEAAA4DAABMWkZ1gu0/ u/8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVtAoMzdwLk BxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DkbmcB0DU3CvsUUQvyBmMAQAXQZSB0b28GIQqFCots aTE4MMEC0WktMTQ0DfAM0HMdQwtZMTYKoANgE9BjfQVALR9nCoceGwwwHuZGfQNhOiBuHuYMggYA AxB2CQcwIEUZEGVsW1PATVRQOnNfCfAksUJAJLBvY2l0CJBz8i4FoG1dIA8hHQZgAjBDIk8jWzIz IE8fMG+CYgSQIDE5OTcqsJwxOhzAJq8hHVRvKO+NI1twBJAAwXVsdAhwHGVAHKATwBGwcnYugm8m AC51bmMuCYDmdRtvHHMzNh3nGkUe5uhIaSA1MHcAcAVAGyDiIDGwc3ViBPIrMDAL0CwgaG8H4GQ1 0DUwGTfSdD84cAqFYnllvzIsMi8zPzRMCoUVMQA90AMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAAAAABAAAcwQEqOY3vg vAFAAAgwQEqOY3vgvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAJm/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCE083.DB8CB2E0-- From owner-organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 11:21:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28778 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21036 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35249 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159034-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:15 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47371 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159014-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28757; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA05076; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu, organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu, simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: How to subscribe/unsubscribe + info on lists available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 We are beginning to gain new subscribers to this list and the others listed below. I hope you all will, if you haven't already, subscribe and available yourselves of the opportunity to use these resources to create and build a knowledgebase, post news and Q&A and generally stay current with the topics you are interested in. These lists are not widely publicised and are almost completely spam free. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net List owner: permaculture, organic-gardening, simple-living http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== This document can be found on the Web at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/misc/listinfo or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/orgfarm/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC and by ftp at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC ========================================================= Subscription Information for Agriculture-Related Mailing Lists at U.N.C.: permaculture, organic-gardening, organic-certification, simple-living & homestead ========================================================= Here are brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for details about the U.N.C. listserver (uses the ListProc software). Use the WILP page or send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu with the message body: review to find out name & email ID you are subscribed any list with, in case you don't remember and want to unsubscribe from the list. Subscribing To A List ===================== Use the WILP page at the following URL's ---------------------------------------- http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/ or more specifically: http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver: http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08 or just start at http://help/unc.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- Manually subscribing or unsubscribing by email: ----------------------------------------------- Address your request to subscribe to a mailing list to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu or listserv@oit.unc.edu i.e., send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu Leave the Subject: line blank. In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing: subscribe i.e.: subscribe permaculture 's> or, if you're unsubscribing type: unsubscribe this will work also: unsubscribe (you can also use the words unsub or signoff) Important: You will need to send these commands to the listserver using the email ID you subscribed to the list with, i.e. the ID associated with your name in the list of users who have subscribed to the mailing list. For example: bsmith@somewhere.com (Bob Smith) wants to subscribe or unsubscribe to the permaculture mailing list at UNC. bsmith@somewhere.com will send email from his somewhere.com account to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu and type into the body of his message the following text: subscribe permaculture Bob Smith or: unsubscribe permaculture To Post To All The Subscribers Of The List, i.e. to send your message to the mailing list: ---------------------------------------------- Send your article by email to: @listserv.oit.unc.edu i.e.: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu IMPORTANT: ========== Write down and save the email ID and name you subscribed with. If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be necessary. This list is configured to only allow subscribers to post articles. ================================================================== Contact Lawrence F. London, Jr., london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: organic-certification, organic-gardening, permaculture & simple-living or Lee Flier, lflier@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: homestead with any questions, requests or suggestions. ================================================================== From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 11:21:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28786 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21057 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35246 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159015-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:17 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47371 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159014-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28757; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA05076; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu, organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu, simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: How to subscribe/unsubscribe + info on lists available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 We are beginning to gain new subscribers to this list and the others listed below. I hope you all will, if you haven't already, subscribe and available yourselves of the opportunity to use these resources to create and build a knowledgebase, post news and Q&A and generally stay current with the topics you are interested in. These lists are not widely publicised and are almost completely spam free. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net List owner: permaculture, organic-gardening, simple-living http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== This document can be found on the Web at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/misc/listinfo or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/orgfarm/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC and by ftp at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC ========================================================= Subscription Information for Agriculture-Related Mailing Lists at U.N.C.: permaculture, organic-gardening, organic-certification, simple-living & homestead ========================================================= Here are brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for details about the U.N.C. listserver (uses the ListProc software). Use the WILP page or send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu with the message body: review to find out name & email ID you are subscribed any list with, in case you don't remember and want to unsubscribe from the list. Subscribing To A List ===================== Use the WILP page at the following URL's ---------------------------------------- http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/ or more specifically: http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver: http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08 or just start at http://help/unc.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- Manually subscribing or unsubscribing by email: ----------------------------------------------- Address your request to subscribe to a mailing list to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu or listserv@oit.unc.edu i.e., send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu Leave the Subject: line blank. In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing: subscribe i.e.: subscribe permaculture 's> or, if you're unsubscribing type: unsubscribe this will work also: unsubscribe (you can also use the words unsub or signoff) Important: You will need to send these commands to the listserver using the email ID you subscribed to the list with, i.e. the ID associated with your name in the list of users who have subscribed to the mailing list. For example: bsmith@somewhere.com (Bob Smith) wants to subscribe or unsubscribe to the permaculture mailing list at UNC. bsmith@somewhere.com will send email from his somewhere.com account to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu and type into the body of his message the following text: subscribe permaculture Bob Smith or: unsubscribe permaculture To Post To All The Subscribers Of The List, i.e. to send your message to the mailing list: ---------------------------------------------- Send your article by email to: @listserv.oit.unc.edu i.e.: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu IMPORTANT: ========== Write down and save the email ID and name you subscribed with. If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be necessary. This list is configured to only allow subscribers to post articles. ================================================================== Contact Lawrence F. London, Jr., london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: organic-certification, organic-gardening, permaculture & simple-living or Lee Flier, lflier@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: homestead with any questions, requests or suggestions. ================================================================== From owner-simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 11:21:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28793 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21070 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35260 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159100-15716>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:21 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47371 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159014-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28757; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA05076; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu, organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu, simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: How to subscribe/unsubscribe + info on lists available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 We are beginning to gain new subscribers to this list and the others listed below. I hope you all will, if you haven't already, subscribe and available yourselves of the opportunity to use these resources to create and build a knowledgebase, post news and Q&A and generally stay current with the topics you are interested in. These lists are not widely publicised and are almost completely spam free. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net List owner: permaculture, organic-gardening, simple-living http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== This document can be found on the Web at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/misc/listinfo or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/orgfarm/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC and by ftp at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC ========================================================= Subscription Information for Agriculture-Related Mailing Lists at U.N.C.: permaculture, organic-gardening, organic-certification, simple-living & homestead ========================================================= Here are brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for details about the U.N.C. listserver (uses the ListProc software). Use the WILP page or send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu with the message body: review to find out name & email ID you are subscribed any list with, in case you don't remember and want to unsubscribe from the list. Subscribing To A List ===================== Use the WILP page at the following URL's ---------------------------------------- http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/ or more specifically: http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver: http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08 or just start at http://help/unc.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- Manually subscribing or unsubscribing by email: ----------------------------------------------- Address your request to subscribe to a mailing list to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu or listserv@oit.unc.edu i.e., send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu Leave the Subject: line blank. In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing: subscribe i.e.: subscribe permaculture 's> or, if you're unsubscribing type: unsubscribe this will work also: unsubscribe (you can also use the words unsub or signoff) Important: You will need to send these commands to the listserver using the email ID you subscribed to the list with, i.e. the ID associated with your name in the list of users who have subscribed to the mailing list. For example: bsmith@somewhere.com (Bob Smith) wants to subscribe or unsubscribe to the permaculture mailing list at UNC. bsmith@somewhere.com will send email from his somewhere.com account to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu and type into the body of his message the following text: subscribe permaculture Bob Smith or: unsubscribe permaculture To Post To All The Subscribers Of The List, i.e. to send your message to the mailing list: ---------------------------------------------- Send your article by email to: @listserv.oit.unc.edu i.e.: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu IMPORTANT: ========== Write down and save the email ID and name you subscribed with. If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be necessary. This list is configured to only allow subscribers to post articles. ================================================================== Contact Lawrence F. London, Jr., london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: organic-certification, organic-gardening, permaculture & simple-living or Lee Flier, lflier@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: homestead with any questions, requests or suggestions. ================================================================== From owner-organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 11:21:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28796 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21075 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35256 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159040-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:23 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@luna.oit.unc.edu (port 47371 [152.2.22.4]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159014-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:00 -0400 Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28757; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA05076; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Cc: organic-gardening@listserv.oit.unc.edu, organic-certification@listserv.oit.unc.edu, simple-living@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: How to subscribe/unsubscribe + info on lists available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 We are beginning to gain new subscribers to this list and the others listed below. I hope you all will, if you haven't already, subscribe and available yourselves of the opportunity to use these resources to create and build a knowledgebase, post news and Q&A and generally stay current with the topics you are interested in. These lists are not widely publicised and are almost completely spam free. -------------------------------------------------------------- Lawrence F. London, Jr. - InterGarden - Venaura Farm mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - mailto:llondon@bellsouth.net List owner: permaculture, organic-gardening, simple-living http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture.html -------------------------------------------------------------- ======================================================== This document can be found on the Web at: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/permaculture/misc/listinfo or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/InterGarden/orgfarm/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC or: http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC and by ftp at: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/agriculture/sustainable_agriculture/net-resources/Ag.listinfo.UNC ========================================================= Subscription Information for Agriculture-Related Mailing Lists at U.N.C.: permaculture, organic-gardening, organic-certification, simple-living & homestead ========================================================= Here are brief subscription instructions plus a few urls for details about the U.N.C. listserver (uses the ListProc software). Use the WILP page or send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu with the message body: review to find out name & email ID you are subscribed any list with, in case you don't remember and want to unsubscribe from the list. Subscribing To A List ===================== Use the WILP page at the following URL's ---------------------------------------- http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/ or more specifically: http://www.unc.edu/courses/ssp/wilp/user_sub_unsub.html --------------------------------------------------------------------- At this URL you'll find the complete usage docs for UNC's Listserver: http://help.unc.edu/cgi-bin/getdocs?docnumber=ieg08 or just start at http://help/unc.edu --------------------------------------------------------------------- Manually subscribing or unsubscribing by email: ----------------------------------------------- Address your request to subscribe to a mailing list to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu or listserv@oit.unc.edu i.e., send email to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu Leave the Subject: line blank. In the body of the message, type, if you're subscribing: subscribe i.e.: subscribe permaculture 's> or, if you're unsubscribing type: unsubscribe this will work also: unsubscribe (you can also use the words unsub or signoff) Important: You will need to send these commands to the listserver using the email ID you subscribed to the list with, i.e. the ID associated with your name in the list of users who have subscribed to the mailing list. For example: bsmith@somewhere.com (Bob Smith) wants to subscribe or unsubscribe to the permaculture mailing list at UNC. bsmith@somewhere.com will send email from his somewhere.com account to: listproc@listserv.oit.unc.edu and type into the body of his message the following text: subscribe permaculture Bob Smith or: unsubscribe permaculture To Post To All The Subscribers Of The List, i.e. to send your message to the mailing list: ---------------------------------------------- Send your article by email to: @listserv.oit.unc.edu i.e.: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu IMPORTANT: ========== Write down and save the email ID and name you subscribed with. If you ever need to unsubscribe this info will be necessary. This list is configured to only allow subscribers to post articles. ================================================================== Contact Lawrence F. London, Jr., london@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: organic-certification, organic-gardening, permaculture & simple-living or Lee Flier, lflier@sunsite.unc.edu, list owner: homestead with any questions, requests or suggestions. ================================================================== From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 12:29:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29655 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14212 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 41701 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159141-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:23:17 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@igcb.igc.apc.org (port 37213 [192.82.108.46]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159161-15716>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:20:38 -0400 Received: from igc3.igc.apc.org (igc3.igc.org [192.82.108.33]) by igcb.igc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28983 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:19:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6-66.igc.org (swrpi@ppp6-66.igc.org) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02383 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971021074738.34179ade@pop.igc.org> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: swrpi@igc.apc.org To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: permaculture institute Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: swrpi@igc.org X-Sender: swrpi@pop.igc.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 > >Ain't it wonderful, I find that I am part of a conspiracy to bring down the >purity of permaculture a serious notch or two and I thought I was doing good! > >Bill Mollison and I have been discussing the need for an Institute in the >U.S. for several years now. There were several reasons that we thought it >would be useful. 1. To take some of the load off of the Permaculture >Institute in Australia which for years has been burdened with the job of >registry, giving out diplomas, keeping track of all the international work, >networking with teachers and students around the world, and in general >keeping track of a very fast growing presence. All of this, I might add, >has been pro bono and primarily comes out of the pocket of Bill Mollison via >royalties on his books. 2. To OFFER (note emphasis) a central clearing >house for course offerings, grant making, and internships. 3. To sponsor >the Permaculture Credit Union, which is well on the way to being a reality. >(for more information: PC Credit Union, PO Box 1812, Santa FE, NM 87504 4. >To sponsor the development of a large PC Village. 5. To research and >develop models for a PC Buying Club, a PC health insurance plan, and other >vehicles where our numbers could combine in creating better deals for us in >the commercial world. 6. To continue networking with our neighbors in the >north and south and helping them access funding through Permaculture >Institute as a umbrella organization. > >The list is fairly endless and perhaps a little overwhelming but all of the >work needs to be done. I personally don't see anyone doing any of the >things above in any meaningful way. If no one is doing a job and a job >needs to be done what is the bitch? I personally would be glad to turn over >any or all of the above to anyone who was seriously going to pursue it, I >have a full plate as it is. > >This whole brouhaha is a little premature as we just got our 501c3 status >from the fed. last month. So to be defending something that was just born >borders on the ridiculous. Like all things if the PCI fills a niche and is >useful it will be successful, if it is a bad idea then, most likely, it will >fail. > >The real question is where is the threat? To my thinking some pc graduates >get the notion that somehow they have a franchise on a geographic area, a >particular area of expertise, a certain calendar date, or by dent of being >at it longer than anyone else. I don't buy it! If anyone is asked to teach >anywhere, anytime then they are perfectly justified in taking that task. >We're dealing with 250 million (+ -) people just in the good ol' USA so we >are a little way from saturation of the market! And keep in mind >participation in the PCI is not mandatory if you don't believe me check the >bylaws they are recorded in the office of the New Mexico Corporation Commission. > >I would also like to state that our poor overworked secretary of the PCI is >a male not a female even though the name is Francis. Wouldn't want people >to get the wrong idea. > >Some of us have the role, I suppose, of jumping into other peoples bidness, >but it would be so much more constructive, if that is the intent, if those >jumpers checked out the information with the jumpees, if you know what I mean. > >There is plenty of work out there as far as I can tell, Bill and I both >thought we had identified some areas that needed work and which if >successful would benefit all of us in the PC movement. I have found nothing >in the conversation about the pc institute which would lead me to change my >mind. > >Scott Pittman > > > From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 15:05:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01789 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13522 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 57745 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <158965-15714>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:59:54 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@imo08.mx.aol.com (port 1072 [198.81.11.100]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158220-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:59:00 -0400 Message-Id: Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:59:28 EDT Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Milogic To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Scott speaks through a forwarding? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv10) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 As the Scott Pittman message had the marks of a forwarding, I wonder from whence it came. Scott looks like he is about perfectly normal business building in a good capitalist model. Anything wrong with that? Milo Clark Berkeley CA USA From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 15:23:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02087 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA23523 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 60601 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159200-15708>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:16:50 -0400 Received: from NO-IDENT-SERVICE@brickbat8.mindspring.com (port 2257 [207.69.200.11]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159149-15716>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:15:41 -0400 Received: from Lee (user-37kb5qo.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.151.88]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03165 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971024151333.00e7bb68@mindspring.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:13:33 -0500 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Lee Flier To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: Re: Scott speaks through a forwarding? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: lflier@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 At 02:59 PM 10/24/97 EDT, Milo wrote: >As the Scott Pittman message had the marks of a forwarding, I wonder from >whence it came. It came from his direct email address. I'm not sure why it looked as though it had been forwarded - possibly he just hit the "Forward" button in order to get it out to several places at once. >Scott looks like he is about perfectly normal business building in a good >capitalist model. Anything wrong with that? I think he's doing better than that, personally, although no, I don't see anything wrong with it and I'm tired of all the whining I am hearing from people who, as Scott says, think they have some kind of exclusive rights to territory. = Lee = ================================== Lee A. Flier lflier@mindspring.com http://lflier.home.mindspring.com Atlanta and Ellijay, Georgia, U.S.A. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 17:09:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03310 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16762 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:04:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 35746 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159166-15716>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:04:17 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@arl-img-2.compuserve.com (port 1109 [149.174.217.132]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <158965-15716> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:02:59 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-2.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id QAA27052 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710241627_MC2-250C-5B19@compuserve.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 16:27:09 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: "Eugene F. Monaco" To: "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: "Eugene F. Monaco" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Message text written by INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu >I've no problem with advanced diplomas if they are given out on the basis of merit rather than rewards for irrelevant services or tokens of friendship. I say this holding 5 myself, and having seen the lack of standards, wondering if they are worth the space in the file cabinet. If the advanced diplomas will be indication of merit rather than rewards for playing ball with the appointed leadership, the effort is worthwhile. There are still risks in adopting the corporate form, all the more so since you don't seem to acknowledge them.< Folks, I agree that perhaps this discussion has gotten out of hand emotionally, but I think there are serious issues here nevertheless. The issue of accrediation has come up before. There are many folks working in the kingdoms of corporatia or officia (read government) that can get reimbursment for courses that are accrediated. This would help struggling consultants. Everybody knows that that accrediation was created to weed out the charlatans, and that in that proces, some slip through the cracks and others get left out. I think many of us agree that permaculturists have been left out. Those of us that have degrees from accrediated institutions are perhaps more sensitive to this than others. Of course it doesn't mean that everyone with a degree in something makes a valuable contribution, they don't; likewise, some of the most successful in their fields have no degrees: Sam Walton never finished high school; Bill Gates quit college in his 3rd year (whether you personally think these folks are great or not is irrelevant, the point is they're tops in their fields). Bill Mollison dropped academia as an institution because it seemed to be the best choice for him at the time. This leaves many of us feeling short when we have gotten our unrecognized advanced degrees in the field. To my knowledge only Slippery Rock U offers a masters program in permaculture, and it's not in permaculture per se, but rather an environmental blah blah blah masters with a permaculture twist. Perhaps this is the legacy of Mollison that we'll just have to overcome. There is a parallel here with chiropractors. There was a time when chiropractors were considered by the AMA as charlatans. Now they've gotten acceptance, and it's the herbologists and accupuncturists and naturopaths who are the charlatans. Yet some make ground as the thing evolves. Naturopathy is recognized in Nevada but not Tennessee. Clearly there are few if any permaculture teachers in N. America that have put more effort into permaculture education standards than Dan H. That he would be somewhat miffed at the P.Institute being created outside of him is IMO understandable. That being said, I think it's also true that the stated attempts of the P. Institute to gain accrediation is an idea who's time has come. Unfortunately, almost no one recognizes permaculture design certificates as being worth anything other than attendence certificates, like you get when you go to any pop course. In certain limited instances, one might be able to win a few points with a potential client, or among others in the permaculture network by proclaiming holdance of these certificates, but that is a personal thing more than anything else. Once someone steps up and claims to be the holder of the keys to the standards, it will cause riffs among the other pioneers who are around. And pioneers aren't likely to give up ground any more than they do in nature; but succession persists nevertheless. Perhaps its time for the P.Institute to extend an invitation to those previously left out of the process, kinda like they did in Philadelphia 200-some years ago. I think we'd all be the better off for it all. Gene Monaco ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ East Tennessee Permaculture (EFMonaco@compuserve.com) Herbs, consultations, & training for total health and environmental sustainability PO Box 11851, Knoxville, TN 37939 (423) 457-4354 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Fri Oct 24 20:11:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06156 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12347 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 47496 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159190-15714>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:44 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@igcb.igc.apc.org (port 41166 [192.82.108.46]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159131-15715>; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:05:28 -0400 Received: from igc3.igc.apc.org (igc3.igc.org [192.82.108.33]) by igcb.igc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17372 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp6-45.igc.org (swrpi@ppp6-45.igc.org) by igc3.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02957; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971024180227.2fc7ad62@pop.igc.org> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: swrpi@igc.apc.org To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, "INTERNET:permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu" Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: swrpi@igc.org X-Sender: swrpi@pop.igc.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Gene Monaco wrote 10/24/97 and Scott Pittman replies 10/24/97 >Folks, I agree that perhaps this discussion has gotten out of hand >emotionally, but I think there are serious issues here nevertheless. The >issue of accrediation has come up before. There are many folks working in >the kingdoms of corporatia or officia (read government) that can get >reimbursment for courses that are accrediated. This would help struggling >consultants. The PRIMARY reason for accreditation is because some of the permaculture graduates want degrees, for whatever reason! Some think they will have a better crack at changing corporate practices if they carry equivalent degree certification as the corporate people they are talking to. Some think it gives them more credibility in the mainstream culture, I happen to agree that it opens doors but once in the door you have to perform and a degree is no guarantee of performance. Some hope that they will be able to make a better living with an MS or PhD tacked to their names, I wish them luck. >Everybody knows that that accrediation was created to weed out the >charlatans, and that in that proces, some slip through the cracks and >others get left out. I think many of us agree that permaculturists have >been left out. > I think that the charlatans get in no matter what you do. I don't think a degree guarantees that one is not a charlatans. Have a look at all the degrees in Congress!! >Once someone steps up and claims to be the holder of the keys to the >standards, it will cause riffs among the other pioneers who are around. >And pioneers aren't likely to give up ground any more than they do in >nature; but succession persists nevertheless. Noone to my knowlege is claiming to hold keys to standards. The standards as they exist now are pretty much what they have been from the first permaculture course, and are encapsulated in "Permaculture A Designer's Manual". I have attended more courses than I can recall and I have seen very little that is new as far as standards are concerned. New information is added as it is made available by students, teachers, designers, other scientists, etc. but basically we are still working from the original course outline. I also find this true internationally. The few courses I have seen that claimed to be "a new curriculum" were concerned with divas, fairies, self help, meditation techniques, etc. the usual "new age" cop out from doing the grunt work necessary to heal the planet and our culture. Curriculum as we have looked at it from the point of view of the Permaculture Academy and accreditation has been using the designer's manual as well as trying to find comparable texts for history, math, English, and other "required subjects". Given a chance we will involve as many people as want to be but first we have to have a structure in place to receive this information and criticism. This must be one of the most paranoid cultures anywhere - everyone is afraid that they are somehow so critical to any process that they take potshots before anything happens! The Permaculture Academy is not the Permaculture Institute is not Permaculture Drylands, etc. got it? >Perhaps its time for the P.Institute to extend an invitation to those >previously left out of the process, kinda like they did in Philadelphia >200-some years ago. I think we'd all be the better off for it all. When the Permaculture Institute is finally funded and can afford postage stamps and has someone to man the phone, computer, and letters then we can invite others to the party. Until then we are a few permaculture people with a few ideas and if they are good ideas they will grow and find people who will participate, if they are bad ideas they will soon be forgotten. I have faith in this process of attrition or survival of the most well thought out. I have tried to design by a committee of twenty or thirty and find out that I never get anything done and spend a hell of a lot of time massaging egos. No thanks! Having said all of this I think if we, as permaculture teachers, designers, practitioners are to be successful in the short term, which to my mind is the only term we have, we will have to organize ourselves to work as a national and international entity. As Bill says we are an elephant acting like a mouse. I am open to any help we can get in trying to set up some kind of unified front organization/s, but I am not interested in collecting points in a debating club. Scott Pittman Ingenio Patet Campus From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 25 09:07:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10399 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23123 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 36115 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159341-19806>; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:01:37 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@emout07.mx.aol.com (port 3609 [198.81.11.22]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159333-19806>; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:01:22 -0400 Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA02070; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <971025090112_-824146564@emout07.mail.aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: YankeePerm@aol.com To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu, EFMonaco@compuserve.com Subject: Re: The Permaculture Institute X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 Nice post, Gene. While I don't hold much truck with advanced degrees necessarily meaning anything, they aren't necessarily meaningless either. The problem here is the process. If the process is not consistent with permaculture, it is self-corrupting. However this discussion, which at one point I thought I was going to be able to avoid, is irrelevant except that a small fraction of the permaculture movement now knows what has been decided for them. There is a history of awful human relations behind previous permaculture institutes that were established by decree for North America, with people who were doing something and swept aside actually moving and swearing me, for on, to secrecy as to their new address to avoid any further contact with Bill and his appointees. I was not part of this--it was all on the west coast and I was on the east coast with no interest in personally being involved in larger organizations than myself. It began to get me thinking about what processes should be consistent with permaculture, however. Ultimately, hierachical forms and permaculture, which is inherently anarchistic, are at odds. Since the abient society--I eschew the word "culture" with reason--is intensely hierachical, trying to keep permaculture's integretity while subsuming it to one of these hierachical forms has burnt out more than one person with as many good intentions as Scott. The individual makes his/her own choices, of course, as is right. But when it damages what we all are trying to do, we all have a right to be concerned. See what happens now over the next 5 or 10 years. The energy is in motion, now, cautionary advice despised, and the flow will play itself out. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. Next starts in Oct. 1997. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com If its not in our food chain, we're not thinking. From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 25 11:01:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11151 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from listserv.oit.unc.edu (listserv.oit.unc.edu [152.2.25.17]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01144 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from SOCKFAULT1@localhost (port 40249 [127.0.0.1]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with SMTP id <159176-19790>; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:55:42 -0400 Received: from TIMEDOUT@hil-img-4.compuserve.com (port 3099 [149.174.177.134]) by listserv.oit.unc.edu with ESMTP id <159057-19807> convert rfc822-to-8bit; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:55:26 -0400 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id KAA01814 for permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710251055_MC2-2518-8EDE@compuserve.com> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:54:57 -0400 Reply-To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sender: owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu From: Kirby Fry To: permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Subject: GBlist: Living Machines (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline X-Sender: Kirby Fry X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Hi Michael, I'm interested in using the kitchen and bathroom sinks' gray water to feed large interior and greenhouse planters much like you'd see in an earthship. Do you know of any "how to" materials available for such an undertaking? KIRBY [@ Cross Timbers Permaculture Inst. on Lake Buchanan, TX; 512-756-7878; web address csf.colorado.edu/perma/] From owner-permaculture@listserv.oit.unc.edu Sat Oct 25 11:20:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6