From piedmont@president.oit.unc.edu  Wed Jul 31 14:35:10 1996
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 14:31:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: permaculture-mg archive & folder
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Piedmont Communities Online
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From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Jul 31 21:52:07 1996
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From: bk720@freenet.carleton.ca (Carl Steen)
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE (fwd)
Reply-To: bk720@freenet.carleton.ca
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I agree with Kathie Priebe in raising the question of why
Wodraska is asking for a photo for his interns.
The rest of the description sounds very interesting and
creative.
But the photo request hints at a bias which should at
the very least be explained.
Carl Steen

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  1 10:56:52 1996
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From: beling@gladstone.uoregon.edu (Isbel Ingham)
Subject: I want to cancel my subscription--help
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unsubscribe


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  1 11:56:33 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: SaaimanP@sabc.co.za (Petrus J. Saaiman)
Subject: Purpose of this list?
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Hi,

Has anyone got a description of the aims and objects of this list? 

Keep it perma-nent!

Petrus

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  1 18:54:20 1996
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To: Michael Yount <yount@csf.colorado.edu>
Cc: peltier@isi.edu, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Oops! Abundant Life Seed Foundation 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:29:28 MDT."
             <199607271929.NAA20794@csf.Colorado.EDU> 
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:30:43 PDT
From: Jennifer Peltier <peltier@isi.edu>
Status: RO
X-Status: 


> Sorry everybody...meant to remove that Cc: line.
> 
> Abundant Life's pages are at 
> 	http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/abundant/
> 
> If any of you could point me in the direction of seed saving
> resources, electronic or otherwise, I'd be obliged.
> As fewer varieties of plants are grown out each year, parts
> of our "permanent culture" or indigenous knowledge are disappearing.
> This strikes me as something all of us have in common, since
> the seeds represent, inter alia, the tools of our designs.
> Does this strike a chord with any of you?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael
> yount@csf.colorado.edu
> 


Hi Michael,

Here are some resources I know of:


Seeds of Change.  
http://www.seedsofchange.com/

I frequently buy these seeds.  I get healthy plants that usually stay
disease free compared to any hybrids in the garden.  These are
open-pollinated, organic seeds.  I am not sure if they do seed saving,
but the catalogue is packed full of ideas and they have volunteer
opps. on their organic farm where they raise seeds.


Santa Barbara Heirloom Seedling Nursery 

http://www.heirloom.com/heirloom/

I hear from friends that this is a great resource.  


Seed Savers Exchange 

Kent Whealy, Director
Rural Route 3, Box 239
Decorah, Iowa 52101

(from the web side http://www.gaia.org/ic/fic/cdir/res/SeedSavers.html)

The Seed Savers Exchange is a network of mostly small-scale growers
and gardeners dedicated to preserving our heritage of
open-pollinated heirloom vegetables, fruits, and nuts. The network's
underlying purpose is to protect the genetic diversity of our food
crops. The SSE's yearbook, published each January, lists varieties
that have been saved...then members exchange and grow each other's
seeds. Three other valuable references works produced by SSE are
Garden Seed Inventory (a complete list of all commercially available
non-hybrid vegetable seeds); Fruit, Berry, and Nut Inventory; and Seed
to Seed (detailing seed-saving techniques for the vegetable
gardener). Write to receive a four-page color brochure detailing SSE's
projects and publications, enclosing $1 with your request. 7/1/92


I hope this helps,

Take care, Jennifer

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  1 19:56:48 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: "Petrus J. Saaiman" <SaaimanP@sabc.co.za>
cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Purpose of this list?
In-Reply-To: <199608011527.RAA14231@rhino.sabc.co.za>
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Piedmont Communities Online
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/piedmont
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On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Petrus J. Saaiman wrote:

> Has anyone got a description of the aims and objects of this list? 

> Keep it perma-nent!

Permaculture-mg mailing list provides aspiring and practicing permaculturists
with a forum they can use to promote the uses and development of 
permaculture systems on a global scale as well as a place to exchange ideas
and resources amongst themselves and with others knowledgeable in sciences
such as biology and agriculture. It serves also as medium for information 
exchange with practioners, professionals and scientists involved in 
landscaping, construction, renewable energy, sustainable community 
development, appropriate technology and many other fields.

Lawrence London
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
mailto:piedmont@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/piedmont

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  1 23:32:23 1996
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From: Paula Stillman <SECPJS@grpwise.latrobe.edu.au>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject:  water chestnuts
Status: RO
X-Status: 

This year I tried to grow water chestnuts, but I'm wondering if I have the
right plant.   All I got from this one were small (about the size of broad
bean seed) corms, nothing like the walnut-sized ones I was expecting.   I
read in the Seed Savers manual that there was a native variety, which
grows in the Northern Territory (Australia).   Could someone who has
had experience with water chestnuts please tell me whether it is worth
planting these corms again.   Perhaps the soil was not good enough to
produce larger fruit.   If it turns out that what I have got is really just an
ornamental variety I will move it to a different spot.
Thanks for an advice on this topic.
Paula

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug  2 16:45:36 1996
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
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Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 13:58:58 -0600 (MDT)
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Back to New Mexico..
Status: RO
X-Status: A

We've just come back from our journey West visiting friends, family and
farms only to find the greenest place we've been is right here in NM.  The
rains came-torrential, I understand-while we were gone and we're in a sea of
green and mosquitos right now.  No complaints..we love it after our drought.
Almost every day we have varying amounts of rain by late afternoon and if we
can just get snowpack this winter we should be in better shape next year.

Meanwhile, we are putting together cistern building workshops for the
surrounding communities so folks can be gathering water in case there is
continuing drought. We appreciate the water gathering formulas some of you
have shared. 

 Also, on this trip, Jesse met some strawbale builders who shared valuable
technologies to introduce in seminars on strawbale techniques.  He's got so
many ideas for using recycled materials and cutting back on having to use
lumber and keeping costs DOWN. I am excited to begin a project promoting
municipal composting here.  Lots we're excited about and this little corner
in New Mexico seems to be a ripe area to get these systems going.  After our
trip we apppreciate where we are.  Discussing the creation of a permaculture
village north of here that will be a place to implement all of these
ideas..that is what we need ..a place to join with other likeminded
individuals towards the actuation of our visions.

Currently designing a strawbale and glass greenhouse to experiment with
extending our growing season so we have (hopefully) the ability to grow food
year round.

I want to start using more soil-blockers for starting seedlings.  Have used
this in the past with limited success, mostly limited because I never really
felt the soil mix was satisfactory.  Does anyone have a good soil mix for
soil-blockers?  Along with this inquiry goes the question of a good organic
fertilizer mixture that can be added to the soil in a particular ratio for
seedlings to get off to a good start?  Understand that Elliot Coleman has a
book out with suggestions of mixes.  Does anyone know this book?

When we arrived home one of our computers had the stealth C virus..wiped out
our whole system..spent three days restoring it.  So be careful of this
one..no idea how we got it in the system..we are very cautious about
downloading and the technician here said it could come through e-mail.  

Loved the suggestion of a mailing list based on VISIONING.  This is
certainly what we need to create within ourselves and *when two or more are
gathered*
we know that very powerful and special things can happen.  So, YES, lets
create, build, vision and HOLD the future how we know it can be.

Peace and keep growing..

Vicki and Jesse Garland

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug  4 23:44:17 1996
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From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Back to New Mexico..
In-Reply-To: <199608021958.NAA07359@nmhu-01.campus.mci.net>
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:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london
mailto:permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu,
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
Organic Gardening & Farming, CSA, Permaculture & Renewable Energy Information
:
-
Piedmont Communities Online
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/piedmont
mailto:piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu
-

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net wrote:

> continuing drought. We appreciate the water gathering formulas some of you
> have shared. 

Could you repost a summary of this info?
 
> felt the soil mix was satisfactory.  Does anyone have a good soil mix for
> soil-blockers?  Along with this inquiry goes the question of a good organic
> fertilizer mixture that can be added to the soil in a particular ratio for
> seedlings to get off to a good start?  Understand that Elliot Coleman has a
> book out with suggestions of mixes.  Does anyone know this book?

Here it is:
from the "New Organic Grower" 1989, by Eliot Coleman
Chelsea Green Pub. Vo.
P.O. Box 130
Post Mills, Vermont, 05058

I highly recommend this book _and_ "How To Grow More Vegetables" by Jphn 
Jeavons, 10 Speed Press

Pages 136-137

Blocking Mix Recipe
-------------------

2 buckets black peat
1/2 cup lime. MIX
2 buckets coarse sand
2 buckets brown peat
3 cups base fertilizer *, MIX
1 bucket soil
1 bucket compost
 Mix all ingredients together thoroughly

Mini-Block Recipe
-----------------

16 parts brown peat
1/2 part colloidal phosphate
1/2 part greensand
4 parts cpmpost (well decomposed)

* his recommendation for fertilizer for the garden is:
limestone rock (for pH adjustment - use as needed)
Greensand Marl (New Jersey Greensand) - potash and minerals
Rock Phosphate or Colloidal Phosphate
Rock Powders or rock dusts, available from rock quarries - supplies minerals
Compost
Manure
Micronutrients should be available in sufficient quantities with
careful pH monitoring and application of rock powders and compost


> Loved the suggestion of a mailing list based on VISIONING.  This is
> certainly what we need to create within ourselves and *when two or more are
> gathered*
> we know that very powerful and special things can happen.  So, YES, lets
> create, build, vision and HOLD the future how we know it can be.

This would be a wonderful list to have - hope it gets started.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug  5 16:53:32 1996
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From: PermaResou@aol.com
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:59:16 -0400
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To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Back to New Mexico..
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi to you,

Saw your posting on the newsgroup.  Please let us know about your workshop.
 We have a web page where we are trying to keep all US permaculture related
courses current.  Check it out at http://www.jumpnet.com/users/perma

My two favorite of Elliot Coleman's books, both of which have soil mixes if
memory servers correctly are "4 Season Harvest" and "The New Organic Farmer".

Beth Lambert
Permaculture Resources

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug  5 21:51:50 1996
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Message-ID: <960805205416_378390447@emout18.mail.aol.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: CSA Position Announcement
Status: O
X-Status: 

Job Title: Executive Director 
The Committee for Sustainable Agriculture (CSA), a 501(c) 3 non-profit
organization, is conducting a nationwide search for a dynamic and innovative
individual to become our next Executive Director. The position demands
excellent communication and interpersonal skills, demonstrated success in
fundraising and outreach, program management and policy development.  The
applicant should have a strong working knowledge of sustainable agriculture,
excellent written and verbal communication skills, experience in managing a
small staff with the ability to work with a diverse Board of Directors.
Previous non-profit experience is a plus. Computer competency with literacy
in word, database, and finance applications with both Macintosh and PC is
desirable. 
Compensation is $35,000 to 40,000+/year full time equivalent, plus benefits,
incentives. A detailed job description is available upon request. The CSA
office is located in Watsonville, California. To be considered for the
position, please send a cover letter, a resume, four current references, and
sample of a successfully funded grant proposal to: CSA ED Hiring Committee,
PO Box 2371, Davis, CA 95616; Fax (916) 756-7363 The deadline for
applications is August 31, 1996. Starting date no later than September 30,
1996. 

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug  6 14:39:03 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: robgil@yesyou.u-net.com (Rob Squires/Gill Ellison)
Subject: Visioning Mailing List
Message-Id: <96Aug6.185213bst.34540(4)@u-net.net>
Date: 	Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:52:03 +0100
Status: O
X-Status: 


>> Loved the suggestion of a mailing list based on VISIONING.  This is
>> certainly what we need to create within ourselves and *when two or more are
>> gathered*
>> we know that very powerful and special things can happen.  So, YES, lets
>> create, build, vision and HOLD the future how we know it can be.

and

>This would be a wonderful list to have - hope it gets started.

I've been pretty busy at work these past few weeks, but as Autumn draws
nearer I'll have more time on my hands. I'm currently talking with my
service provider, U-Net, to see what is required at their end.

If all goes well, the list should be running in the not too distant future,

Yours, Rob.
                           
 Rob Squires of CTCSystems | http://www.u-net.com/~yesyou
 Communitarianist          | E:mail - robgil@yesyou.u-net.com
 ========================= + ===========================================
 Gill Ellison              | http://www.connect.org.uk/merseyworld/ACSH/
 Age Concern - St.Helens   | E:mail -robgil@yesyou.u-net.com
                             
   

From blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net  Mon Aug  5 21:40:19 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 19:40:10 -0600 (MDT)
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To: piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Rainfall/cistern calculation - results
Status: RO
X-Status: A

>X-Sender: beauty@batnet.com
>Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:19:53 -0700
>To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
>From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
>Subject: Rainfall/cistern calculation - results
>
>
>I was asked by one list member to post any response I got.  I've received
>two versions of this, one in English and one in metric terms, and I think
>I'll quote both here.  (I haven't tested the metric one.)
>
>>From Jeff Jacobsen in Washington state (US)(English measure):
>
>>Here is what I do for my calculations:
>> Roof size has to be the calculated equal to the ground area the roof
>>covers.  Hence, do your measurements parallel to the ground; if you
>>measure at an angle your result will be too high.  Determine area, i.e. 
>>length x width.  Add all roofs or roof segments together to get your
>>catchment area.  If you work in inches you won't have to worry about
>>conversion. Include your gutters too, since they catch water too.
>>
>>Divide by 231, the number of cubic inches in a gallon.
>>
>>This gives you the number of gallons for one inch of rainfall.
>>
>>Mulitply by annual rainfall to get annual catchment.  
>
>And from Murray Hopkins in Australia (Metric):
>
>>  If you want to do the conversions, the metric formula is:
>>
>> 1 litre of water per 1 mm of rainfall per square metre of roof.
>>
>>(4.5 litres per gallon, 305 mm per foot, approx 39 inches per metre.)
>>
>>You then need to subtract a percentage for losses. This depends upon how 
>>hot the roof is; how much water ends up in the gutters etc etc. 
>>We work on about 10% here but thats very variable.
>
>I also got some suggestions as to storage media, from stock tanks to 40 gal.
>plastic barrels to ferrocement to pre-formed large plastic tanks (we've got
>one already -- they're not cheap!).  We're leaning toward ferrocement at
>this point, but with at least a year before we have the resources (time and
>labor) to essay this, anything is still possible.
>
>Again, thanks to those who wrote!
>
>Loren
>Loren Davidson
>loren@wombat.net
>http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
>The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
>make no law".
>
Hi Piedmont!
Here are the calculations you requested.  Thank you for the soil mix recipes
you sent on to me.  It gives me a good jump on playing with the mix even
before I locate the Coleman books.  Appreciate your response.
Vicki Garland
>

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug  7 22:43:20 1996
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Message-ID: <320892ED.328E@magna.com.au>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 22:58:21 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: int discussion group <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: New associations/ yacon
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Status: O
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Hi,

The Australian City farms, Community Gardens and Enterprise Centres =

Network has been formed and has published an inventory of centres in =

Australia.

The inventory will be updated regularly.

The network will maintain communication with members so we can share =

information and learn from each other and will supply advice and =

assistance to new community supported agriculture initiatives.

The inventory sells for AUD$20, posted within Australia and AUD$25 =

posted offshore.

In other developments, the Australian Rainforest Bushfood Association =

was recently formed to promote the interests of the emerging bushfood =

growing and processing industry.

The industry is embryonic =8B markets are as yet small but growth into a =

viable niche market is anticipated. Specialty restaurants and hotels =

are the main buyers at present.

There is an emerging awareness among both the public and farmers of =

the potential for Australian bushfoods as a commercial proposition. =

There is also a number of new extracted oils which would be of value =

as well =8B such as the strongly lemon oil of Backhousia citriodora. =


The best known Australian bushfoods are the medicinal tea tree oil =

(Malaleuca alternifolia) and the Macadamia (Macadamia spp) nut, which =

the north Americans sped off to Hawaii earlier in the century and =

developed as a commercial food product but which is now plantation =

grown in the Australian east coast subtropics.

Anybody coming to this part of the world in late September =8B early =

October might want to visit Western Australia for the Sixth =

International Permaculture Convergence. Speakers include George Chan =

(George Chan the biogas man) who has done much to develop energy/ food =

systems in developing tropical countries and Vendana Shiva, the noted =

Indian social activist. The best part of the convergence are the =

workshops and the contacts you make.

Finally, does anyone have any information on a plant, an edible tuber =

and member of the sunflower family which goes by the common names of =

yacon or Peruvian ground apple?

It's of South American origin.

I was given some to grow. Well, its grown and has now died back and, =

presumably, is ready to harvest. I wonder if there is any information =

about its traditional uses, any recipies =8B traditional or otherwise =8B =

and any precautions to be taken with the plant.

There's another plant I've grown as an experiment =8B the so-called =

Peruvian artichoke (whixch is not an artichoke). That's doing quite =

well in warm temperate Sydney in nutrient-poor, sandy soil, heavily =

mulched and growing in close association with taro.

Any information gratefully received.

Regards...

=2E..Russ Grayson


-- =

PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) =

	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. =

NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms, Community Gardens and =

Enterprise Centres Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  8 04:36:56 1996
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From: c.shaw@midnet.com (Colin Shaw)
Reply-To: c.shaw@midnet.com
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: John Seymour's Self-Sufficiency school 
Date: 08 Aug 1996 08:56:05 GMT
Message-Id: <3483196606.181239307@midnet.com>
Organization: MidNet, Coventry UK
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anybody happen to know if John Seymour's Self-Sufficiency school is
still in operation in Ireland?

Colin Shaw
c.shaw@midnet.com

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  8 11:34:19 1996
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From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: C content of various tropical crops (fwd)
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:31:26 -0500 (CDT)
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

Forwarded message:
>From amani.ces.ncsu.edu!almanac-request Wed Aug  7 23:44:09 1996
X-Authentication-Warning: newz.oit.unc.edu: news set sender to london@sunsite.unc.edu using -f
To: sustag-public@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 11:59:52 -0400
From: Jean-Pierre Kiekens <kiekens@ibm.net>
Message-ID: <3208BD78.395F@ibm.net>
Organization: Total Net
Sender: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: C content of various tropical crops

Hello,

I am currently working on the implications of an agro-forestry project
proposal, in West Africa, in terms of carbon sequestration. Would
anybody know about where I could find out standard figures for the
carbon content of:
- Theobroma cacao
- Coffea robusta
- Elais guineensis
- Citrus sp.
- Hevea brasiliensis
- Acacia mangium or Albizia sp.
- Chromolaeana odorata (a weed in West African savannahs)

References for growth data in terms of C or dry content for these plants
would also be appreciated, as well as possible studies having
investigated the issue in other tropical contexts.

Thanks for your help

Jean-Pierre Kiekens

University of Brussels &
Environmental Strategies Europe
e-mail : kiekens@ibm.net
http://www.infobahnos.com/~kiekens/

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  8 12:04:56 1996
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From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: The Permaculturist's Bookshelf
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:15:59 -0500 (CDT)
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

Two good books for the permaculturist's bookshelf: 

1. 
Rehm, Sigmund, and Gustav Espig.  1991.  The Cultivated 
Plants of the Tropics and Subtropics.  CTA (The Technical 
Centre for Agriculture and Rural Co-operation), The Netherlands. 
Printed by Verlag Josef Margraf Scientific Books, Germany. 
ISBN 3-8236-1169-0.  552 pages. 

This pocketbook treasure was translated into English in 1991  
and contains plant lists, tables, and useful notes on
more than 1,000 plants.  2,033 literature citations are
listed as primary information sources. 

agAccess mailorder bookstore in Davis, California carries this book 
(listed in The Permaculture FAQ) 


2.
Facciola, Stephen.  1990.  Cornucopia: A Source Book of 
Edible Plants.  Kampong Publications, Vista, CA  678 pages.

Thousands of plants and seed sources and plant nurseries are listed.
It is indispensible as a listing of edible and useful plants
and where to get your hands on the actual plant germplasm.  

This book is sold by The Permaculture Activist and other 
permaculture resources listed in The Permaculture FAQ. 

The layout is such that it would be perfect as an on-line
database for ready access, as well keeping addresses of seed
sources up-to-date.  In fact, a co-worker said there is now a
CD-ROM version available through Facciola/Kampong.  

  Kampong Publications
  1870 Sunrise Drive
  Vista, CA  92084


Steve Diver 
Ozark Farming & Gardening/Permaculture Network
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug  8 16:29:41 1996
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
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Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:28:58 -0600 (MDT)
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Cistern material..
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anyone have any 'concrete'(pun intended) information on appropriate
building materials for holding water in cisterns?  Are there any
stabilizing, Earth friendly ingredients to allow adobe clay to be water
impermeable over time?  We have heard of ferro-cement but hesitate to rely
on it until we have a greater understanding of its components and effect on
stored water.  

Netsah, Michael via Vicki Garland

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 11 22:40:53 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:23:55 +-1000
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Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
share many of the ups and downs with our students - Most
live far away and unfortunately for them haven't seen the site
- it is not complete and most will be for ever evolving
The dilema is that people are so enthused by our work
 they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
chat and I just can't get anything done.
I'm getting to the point where I am afraid to go into the garden
in case some one sees me, and wants to talk permaculture!!
I like to be generous - that's why I like permaculture
I like the sharing side of this way of life.
I thought of running an open day but I don't feel ready - and anyway
that might just attract MORE sightseers on the off days.
I realise there is a shortage of permaculture sites - but permaculture
isn't a collective business - or some kind of religion - for me
it is about modifying our behaviour until is seems a normal way of life.
And being a spectacle isn't part of normal for me. 
Any suggestions - any one else in the same boat?

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 11 23:21:59 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'EarleLA@aol.com'" <EarleLA@aol.com>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Permaculture Principles
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:42:35 +-1000
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Does each instructor have his/her own set of principles that are passed on to
students?
I suspect that as teachers themselves were taught by different people - and few 
from Mollison - even then  he tires of reiteration and will wander in his teachings- 
I think that there is bandied about a collection of principles that is personalised 
by each teachers experience.
Are there principles that we all hold in common?
Few people would reject other peoples permaculture principles if they sat under
the ethics criteria.  SHARE CARE CARE stuff.
We cannot expect that permaculture will have a set collection of principles
either because it is designed for observation to be a very powerful tool - and
with observation comes laws - does it not.
Permaculture is evolving - it will always have new principles.  Just as natural systems
evolve and are different according to climate and other factors.
Does a statement of principles in fact serve to define permaculture itself?
Permaculture is best defined in the act of doing, not talking - should we assume
that everything we do can be explained and documented and talked about.
There is a text file attached that goes into more detail about the topic for
those who may be interested in this sort of 'defining' activity. 
thankyou for the file.
I've been flat out with students, hope this receives you well and happy,
April
Dan Earle

<<File: Permaculture Principles.txt>>

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 12 11:35:48 1996
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From: jrhall@iastate.edu
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To: askpv@ozemail.com.au
Cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
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In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Aug 1996 11:23:55 +-1000
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I think its interesting and useful to look at the social aspects as just 
another permaculture problem. Channel those visitors and make them 
contributors to your system (and obviously you are to theirs!). And just 
be direct and honest with visitors at unwanted times--few people really 
think the world should revolve around them... But mostly, congratulations 
on having this problem/resource! Lots of us are dreaming and working 
towards being where you're at!


> Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
> We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
> share many of the ups and downs with our students - Most
> live far away and unfortunately for them haven't seen the site
> - it is not complete and most will be for ever evolving
> The dilema is that people are so enthused by our work
>  they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
> chat and I just can't get anything done.
> I'm getting to the point where I am afraid to go into the garden
> in case some one sees me, and wants to talk permaculture!!
> I like to be generous - that's why I like permaculture
> I like the sharing side of this way of life.
> I thought of running an open day but I don't feel ready - and anyway
> that might just attract MORE sightseers on the off days.
> I realise there is a shortage of permaculture sites - but permaculture
> isn't a collective business - or some kind of religion - for me
> it is about modifying our behaviour until is seems a normal way of life.
> And being a spectacle isn't part of normal for me. 
> Any suggestions - any one else in the same boat?
> 

---
Jeff Hall	
jrhall@iastate.edu

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 12 15:36:55 1996
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Date: 12 Aug 96 15:23:49 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Social action groups
Message-ID: <960812192349_75554.631_GHJ78-3@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
X-Status: 

	As founding co-director of Texas' first non-profit incorporated
permculture institute (Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute --
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ctpi) and a confirmed introvert*, I understand
well April Sampson-Kelly's (member of pc mailing list at listserver@eepo.com.au;
send E-mail with SUBSCRIBE PERMACULTURE-MG [Your Name]) feelings about the
sometimes conflicting interactions between time, social interchange, education,
and trying to get the garden weeded and the cowpeas picked. 

	It seems that many, many people interested creating a new culture have
grown up being marginalized by their "host" ("captor"?) societies for years
before finding, or having to create, a place to begin to fit into. I've seen
many projects started and run by very private, very brilliant, very eclectic
people whose great creativity is based in large part on their ability to
visualize reality outside the normal ("normal"? -- let's hope not!) social
context of Western society**. These same people's projects often suffer from a
lack of connection with conventional, established social avenues and mechanisms,
such as banking, schmoozing, etc. A large part of the success of many of our
endeavors will often, I feel, involve learning to reacquaint ourselves with the
idea of fitting into a societal structure, of whatever scope. I think we need to
learn to form partnerships which cross not only cultural but intro/extroversion
boundaries, linking outgoing persons with behind-the-scenes types, probably in
roughly equal proportions. 

	Further, the projects I have seen have almost invariably needed a lot
more people involved than were trying to do the work. I myself am presently
engaged in attempting to revive a very promising Texas seed exchange which
failed because its operator's introversion caused him to fail to take advantage
of the many interested people who were trying to get involved in his project.
Eventually the exchange collapsed because of the overwork and attempted
overextension of the operator. Again, this seems a problem perhaps originating
with introverted creators failing to create social networks capable of
supporting the projects in question. Such a network needs people who love to
talk -- in person and on the phone -- people who love to go out and find money
and other social/material support-links, and people who just want to be quiet
and work in a garden, or at a computer (pencil and paper?) planning or writing.

	Moral: We must attempt to keep our disillusionment with the societies in
which we were formed confined to the diseased characteristics of those
societies, as separate from the idea of societies themselves. Humans are in the
end a gregarious species  -- we need each others' support in order to accomplish
most tasks. Introverts must learn to create safe personal boundaries for
themselves, enabling us to come out ot those boundaries periodically for the
purpose of creating new social possibilities. Many introverts may, in fact, have
been turned inward in the first place by interaction with a brutal society (I
grew up in Shithole, Texas in the 60's and 70's during our participation in --
and foment of -- the Vietnam War, and believe me I know whereof I speak).
Wouldn't it be great to be a part of a healthy society which respects and
treasures the unique sensibilities and perspectives of each individual?
Extroverts, for their part, must learn what it means/feels to be introverted,
and carefully respect the boundaries which introverts attempt to form around
themselves. It seems that these things are possible, and at any rate, we must
fight for them so that future kiddies can grow up in societies where people and
animals and ecosystems are loved instead of brutalized. No?

Love, Jack Rowe

*How to tell if you are an introvert or and extrovert -- the former may enjoy
social interactions but are drained by them in general, the latter are in
general energized after social encounters. Whichever you are, enjoy the special
privileges attendant upon your category. Both (all!) types of human are needed
-- and we are all a little bit of both types!
**Difference between Western society and yogurt? Yogurt has active cultures.
Interviewer to Ghandi: What do you think about Western civilization? Ghandi: I
think it would be a great idea. 

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 12 19:40:07 1996
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From: Wilcox_D@hccs.cc.tx.us
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:42:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: CSA position in Davis California
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Message-id: <4522421712081996/A05241/ADMIN/11A8646A1300*@MHS>
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In a spastic finger-twitching glitch during a late-night computer interaction,
I accidentally deleted the entry on the job opening for a CSA director in
Davis.  If anyone happened to save it, please forward it to me.   Many thanks.

Victoria Albright      (e-mail:     wilcox_d@hccs.cc.tx.us      )

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 13 08:42:15 1996
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Message-ID: <320FE1CE.475B@magna.com.au>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:00:46 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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Hi...

Is there anybody out there with experience in implementing 
permaculture projects in schools?

If so, we would like to hear from you and learn about your 
experiences.

There are several schools with permaculture gardens in Sydney and a 
substantial number around Australia.

On October 8 this year, the day after the end of the Permaculture 
International Convergence in Perth, Western Australia, there is a 
one-day workshop on permaculture in schools. 

As a lead up to the workshop, I have been circulating a survey form 
designed to glean what is being practiced as permaculture in schools, 
what is working, where there are problems and what solutions designers 
have developed to these problems. 

Let's know if you would like to fill out a survey and I can post 
(mail) a copy to you or email it as an attachment (you'll need 
Pagemaker 6 for Mac to read it as an attachment).

We recently started work with two Sydney schools which want 
permaculture projects. 

These projects involve more than installing sheet mulched gardens. 
They attempt to integrate permaculture into the life of the school - 
into the curricula of different subject areas.This has been done in 
other states in Australia.

Headteachers and some staff are enthusiastic. Dr Ted Trainer, who 
lectures at the University of NSW, is supportive and instigated the 
Hurstville South primary project. He has trainee teachers at the 
school.

A coalition of permaculture designers - people who, for the most part, 
have completed our permaculture design courses in Sydney -  and who 
live in areas near the schools have banded together to assist the 
project and to further develop their own skills.

Included in the projects will be food production, energy auditing and 
conservation, water conservation and so on.

In related news, Fiona Campbell and myself - Russ Grayson - both of 
Permaculture Extension Service, Angus Campbell (Institute for Local 
Self reliance) and Mary Bell (Australian Museum educator) are working 
on a small book on permaculture in schools for NSW-based environmental 
education publisher, the Gould League. That should be ready in the 
first half of 1997.

We really would like to hear from people who have experience 
implementing permaculture in schools and in participative design with 
school staff, parents and people from the community. Any advice would 
be gratefully received.


-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 13 13:34:18 1996
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subscribe permaculture-mg

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 13 16:41:04 1996
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Date: 13 Aug 96 15:28:23 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>,
        prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: CTPI URL correction
Message-ID: <960813192823_75554.631_GHJ46-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
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Folks, 

	I think I should have given the Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute's
Web Page URL as http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ (without the "ctpi", but with the
last "/"). It works with that URL. Thanks, sorry for inconvevience/irritation,
Jack.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 13 17:28:29 1996
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Date: 13 Aug 96 15:28:27 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: ferro-cement
Message-ID: <960813192827_75554.631_GHJ46-2@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
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Re: the question on replacement materials for concrete in ferro-cement, and
despite the original author's open admission to having purposely committed a
pun...

	Concrete is mostly harmless (isn't that what they said about earth?) but
can contain significant amounts of aluminum, and smaller amounts of other
metals, including radioactives commonly found in rock materials [radioactives
are one reason Zeolite, a mined mineral with very high cation exchange capacity
-- important in agriculture -- and moisture-absorption coefficeint is not
allowed by the Texas Department of Agriculture in organically-certified soil
mixes]. 

	Probably to a great extent danger from the mineral impurities of concrete
is mitigated by its alkaline reaction in water. It tends to render metals
insoluble in water, and for this reason might actually be a great material for
storing water. However, I personally would only hesitantly recommend building a
ferro-cement tank without sealing the inner surface. Not only would a sealer
obviate any real danger from mineral impurities, but, importantly in thin-shell
constructions, it would protect the crucial steel inside the concrete from the
corrosive effects of moisture. Sealers come in all sorts of bizarre chemical
configurations, which, if concrete worries you, you don't even want to think
about! Perhaps plain parrafin or bee's wax, heated and applied on a hot day,
would work well, and might actually be harmless to humans (who brought up this
harmless-to-humans thing? -- man, that's going to cause all kinds of extra
trouble!).

	Speaking of steel being crucial for tensile strength in water tanks (or
most concrete construction), the same would be true of other earthen materials.
They are very poor in tensile strength (resistance to being pulled apart as
opposed to squashed) and would need to be supported from outside to counter the
forces of the water inside pushing out. Again the problem of sealing the
material to protect the steel enters in. Old water tanks used wood, tightly
bound from the outside, and sealed by its own expansion upon wetting. Adobe has
manure in it, no? Hmm... Bentonite clay could be used as an earthen sealer of
sorts, not perfect at preventing moisture travel and probably presenting the
same mineral-impurities danger as the original concrete (and similarly
expensive).

	I'd go with the phenomenal long-term permanance of well-constructed
ferro-cement, keep about an inch of concrete on the inside of the steel
(construction "re-mesh" is strong, cheap, and the leftover makes the very best
tomato cages, 5' tall, a nice rust color, they blend right in with the garden),
and seal the whole inside with bee's wax or what passes in the mind for other
harmless sealers (the FDA says plastic cement -- you know, the black stuff inept
roofers use for patching roofs (rooves?)  -- is safe for drinking water... Mmmm,
that sounds good...).

	A book on ferro-cement, only one I know of that's not written for
boat-builders (I know, sounds strange, but it's true) can ordered from Jade
Mountain Alternative Products or some such name, at
http://www.indra.com/~jade-mtn/contents.html. The title is Build Your Own
Ferro-Cement Water Tank, and the author is Dannie or Donnie Schulzberg or
Schultzburg, in case you want to look it up locally. Jade Mountain has a lot of
good, very hard-to-find books and products for alternative living.

	Long-winded and full of utterly useless speculation? Sorry,  Jack.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 14 09:35:55 1996
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:57:03 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
CC: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
References: <01BB8843.BF4E80C0@slwol1p18.ozemail.com.au>
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April Sampson-Kelly wrote:
> 
> Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
> We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
> share many of the ups and downs with our students - Most
> live far away and unfortunately for them haven't seen the site
> - it is not complete and most will be for ever evolving
> The dilema is that people are so enthused by our work
>  they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
> chat and I just can't get anything done.
> I'm getting to the point where I am afraid to go into the garden
> in case some one sees me, and wants to talk permaculture!!
> I like to be generous - that's why I like permaculture
> I like the sharing side of this way of life.
> I thought of running an open day but I don't feel ready - and anyway
> that might just attract MORE sightseers on the off days.
> I realise there is a shortage of permaculture sites - but permaculture
> isn't a collective business - or some kind of religion - for me
> it is about modifying our behaviour until is seems a normal way of life.
> And being a spectacle isn't part of normal for me.
> Any suggestions - any one else in the same boat?

This is a dilemma faced by other people who operate their residences 
as demonstration sites. 

It arises because people are curious to see something new - like 
permaculture in action - because they want to implement things they 
might see and simply to check it out in case it may prove useful in 
their lives. 

There are many reasons why people visit, including simple curiousity 
and, significantly, the seeking of inspiration in uninspiring times.

People, I believe, want to see signs of hope and that, at basics, is 
what April is offering (whether she knows it or not).

There are solutions - April can apply some forms of control. The 
problem is that the controls which have been applied elsewhere are 
those April finds distasteful - that is, establishing open days when 
people know they can visit the site.

Here's a couple examples of where it is being done.

In northern NSW, Robyn Francis operates Djanbung Gardens, a
permaculture education and demonsration centre. 

Her solution to April's problem has been to open her site one 
afternoon on a weekend day and one other day to casual visitors. Other 
times by prior arrangement.

It seems to work. Robyn retains her sanity, some degree of privacy and 
is only a spectacle at times of her own choosing. On open days, Robyn 
assumes her role as teacher, promoting what she loves and what is her 
livelihood - permaculture.

In Sydney, Dr Ted Trainer, the noted limits-to-growth educator and 
author, opens his home site at Pigface Point to groups by way of prior 
arrangement.

Individuals who wish to visit are tagged onto a visiting group on
Sundays. 

This ensures some measure of privacy for a public person while giving 
access to a valuable demonatration resource. 

There is no opportunity for casual visitation at Pigface Point.

When we were compiling the Australian City Farms, Community Gardens 
and Enterprise Centres Network inventory, we faced the issue of access 
to sites versus privacy rights of demonstration site residents.

Put to the residents, a few opted for only their telephone numbers 
being listed. This ensured that visitors had to arrange visits and 
could not call in casually. 

Of course, there will always be a small number of curious casual 
visitors no matter what is done to contain the situation. Then it's up 
to you what you do.

May I suggest a sign - courteously written - on the front fence 
advising that visits are welcome on open days and by appointment or 
whatever arrangements are decided upon. Maybe a descriptive leaflet in 
a box to maintain the curiousity of casual visitors.

It's an irony that people who get off their backsides and actually do 
something such as establish a demonstration site become, often 
inadvertently, the focus of attention. Attention is part of the 
territory of leadership in whatever field.

The other suggestion is that April could offer learning opportunities 
for people who want to come along and actually get their hands dirty 
learning permaculture the practical way. 

These could be of a workshop structure with the fee paid in work or, 
perhaps, a small charge could be made. There has to be value for 
money, which I'm sure April could provide.

Maybe there could be an 'apprentice' scheme where people who wished to 
learn and to support the site could agree to volunteer a certain 
amount of work for learning - maybethey could receive a cheap or free 
permaculture course after a certain period of voluntary work and 
informal learning. 

Perhaps Local Exchange and Trading Systems would be the appropriate 
vehicle for this type of transaction.

Then there's WWOOFING - Willing Workers On Organic Farms - which 
provides experiential opportunities which facilitate learning and 
assistance for farm owners. 

It would be interesting is people wrote about their experiences of 
this situation. Then we can all learn from then.
-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 15 08:41:01 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 21:42:58 +1000 (GMT+1000)
From: Emanuele John Gelsi <s100962@student.uq.edu.au>
To: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
cc: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: REintroduction
In-Reply-To: <3211B0FF.40F9@magna.com.au>
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Hi everyone!
It's been quite a whle since I haven't mailed to the list. I am currently 
doing a masters in social planning and development athe university of 
Queensland. I am reviewing whatever literature i can get my hands 
on community gardening/ city farms. Ultimately I hoped to provide a 
social profile of the participants in community gardens in Brisbane; this 
however seems a little simple. I was hoping for any different ideas from 
this list, for instance any policy issues that practitioners of community 
gardening would be concerned about. If you have any ideas please let me know!
Cheers

Emanuele John Gelsi 
s100962@student.uq.edu.au
Dept of Anthropology and Sociology
University of Qld	Australia



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 15 22:39:50 1996
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From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:52:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: FloraList Operations (Richard) <flora@Flora.Com>
To: Community Forestry <Tree-House@List.Flora.Com>
Subject: TH: Wanted - EcoLists

 Greenings All -

 I've been working on our 'USStates' web-page which
 now lists all US State Trees, and which ones of
 those are also US Champion Trees (like here in
 Maryland, where we are home to the World-Champion
 White Oak -- 'Quercus alba' -- which is also our official
 State Tree).  "http://www.flora.com/tree-house/usstates.htm"

 I'm now trying to compile a comprehensive directory
 of all 'EcoLists' -- discussion lists which emphasize
 ecological issues.  Any help would be gratefully
 appreciated, including WWW-sites and subscription info.

 Could someone kindly provide particulars on the Permaculture
 lists, thanx?  Reply either to TH, or off-list to:

 R Tryzno Ellsberry
 Richard@Flora.Com                | Repent for your sins!
 List Operator for Tree-House     | Plant a tree today!
 Baltimore / USDA Zone 7

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 16 10:37:24 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:48:13 +0100 (BST)
From: "S.J.Gowland" <afp363@bangor.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afp363@thunder
To: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
Cc: int discussion group <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Re: New associations/ yacon
In-Reply-To: <320892ED.328E@magna.com.au>
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On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Permaculture Extension Services wrote:
>=20
> Finally, does anyone have any information on a plant, an edible tuber=20
> and member of the sunflower family which goes by the common names of=20
> yacon or Peruvian ground apple?
>=20
> It's of South American origin.
>=20
> I was given some to grow. Well, its grown and has now died back and,=20
> presumably, is ready to harvest. I wonder if there is any information=20
> about its traditional uses, any recipies =8B traditional or otherwise =8B=
=20
> and any precautions to be taken with the plant.
>=20
> There's another plant I've grown as an experiment =8B the so-called=20
> Peruvian artichoke (whixch is not an artichoke). That's doing quite=20
> well in warm temperate Sydney in nutrient-poor, sandy soil, heavily=20
> mulched and growing in close association with taro.
>=20
> Any information gratefully received.
>=20
> Regards...
>=20
> ...Russ Grayson
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
> Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
> PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA
>=20
> Phone=0902-9588 6931=09(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
> Fax =0902 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE)=20
> =09(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
> Email: permaext@magna.com.au
>=20
> Permaculture education, publishing, design.=20
> NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms, Community Gardens and=20
> Enterprise Centres Network.
>=20
> Hi Russ,
=09While doing some research recently I came across a book that=20
should be of some use to you:

Lost crops of the Incas - Little known plants of the Andes with promise=20
for worldwide cultivation.  National Research Council.  1989.  National=20
Academy Press, Washington DC.
=20
=09It contains well presented detailed information on numerous root=20
crops, grains, legumes, vegetables and fruits.  It does cover Yucon. =20
The information is detailed and clearly presented, and it has references=20
for further information.  I reckon it's well worth getting hold of.

=09Best Wishes,

=09=09Sarah Gowland. (University of Bangor, North Wales, UK).

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 16 17:39:01 1996
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Date: 16 Aug 96 15:58:11 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: community gardens, city planning
Message-ID: <960816195811_75554.631_GHJ57-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
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Re: the request for ideas concerning city planning for community gardens from E.
J. Gelsi of  Australia [s100962@student.uq.edu.au], repeated below for those on
the NCSU pc mailing list...

>> I am currently doing a masters in social planning and development at the
University of Queensland. I am reviewing whatever literature I can get my hands
on concerning community gardening/city farms. Originally I hoped to provide a
social profile of the participants in community gardens in Brisbane; this
however seems a little simple. I was hoping for any different ideas from this
list, for instance any policy issues that practitioners of community gardening
would be concerned about. If you have any ideas please let me know!<<

	Good ideas are one thing, fortunately and wisely Mr. Gelsi just asks for
different ideas. My pet idea involves retrofitting of existing suburbs, since we
have so many of them already. Anyway, actually planning our cities ahead of time
-- like before they are built -- is just a little bit too radical, by the looks
of things.

	The average suburban block is two rows of houses back-to-back, with yards
backing onto city-easement alleyways in between. What a nice, park-like
atmosphere our 'burbs would have if each of these alleyways were [perhaps
widened just a bit] and then developed into parkways and/or gardens, complete
with bicycle paths, swales and community fruit trees, basketball courts, swards
and thickets (birds love thickets), wildflower meadows, etc. 

	At an extreme of planning, different blocks could be developed along
different themes. There could be blocks of houses for folks with kids, with
grass and some play equipment between, fenced from streets for a small measure
of security, parents rotating duties watching the kiddies. Alleys in blocks of
homes for elderly could have a quieter setup, with benches, tables, a gazebo or
two, fruit trees, and the bird-attracting thickets. Blocks of kids and quieter
folks could alternate for the convenience of older people who actually like kids
(I love kids, myself. Read some great parenting advice recently, from Robert
Orben -- "Never raise your hand to your children; it leaves your midsection
unprotected"). Alleys not used to corral kiddies could have bike paths wending
through and connecting different blocks (crossing streets with bike paths would
need thought, beyond my preferred method of speeding up and keeping my head
down). Small community gardens would be easy to locate every couple of blocks.
Many cities are starting to compost yard wastes, and the local towns doing this
here in Texas have difficulty giving the resulting compost away free (it's not
trash, just yard wastes -- mostly just leaves and grass clippings with the odd
can of roach spray -- perfectly harmless). 

	Anyway, just the bare bones of an idea. Probably most alley right-of-ways
would have to be widened by 10' - 15' on either side (they are typically 12' in
my town, 35' would do fine for many purposes). People might actually get to know
their neighbors again, but there would be good points, too. If setups like this
were actually planned before the cities in question were built (nah!),
cul-de-sacs could be generously used, and the bike paths and parkways thereby
made much more continuous. Every several blocks could be given over to small
market strips with bread shops, farmers'/gardeners' market days, etc. Cities
built to facilitate the growth of humans instead of dollars.  Oh, well, Jack.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 16 20:44:01 1996
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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 15:24:15 -0700
To: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>,
        prmclt mailing list Aust
    <perma@eepo.com.au>
From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
Subject: Re: community gardens, city planning
CC: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:58 PM 8/16/96 EDT, jack rowe wrote:
>Re: the request for ideas concerning city planning for community gardens
from E.
>J. Gelsi of  Australia [s100962@student.uq.edu.au], repeated below for those on
>the NCSU pc mailing list...
(...)
>	The average suburban block is two rows of houses back-to-back, with yards
>backing onto city-easement alleyways in between. What a nice, park-like
>atmosphere our 'burbs would have if each of these alleyways were [perhaps
>widened just a bit] and then developed into parkways and/or gardens, complete
>with bicycle paths, swales and community fruit trees, basketball courts, swards
>and thickets (birds love thickets), wildflower meadows, etc. 

Actually, many suburban blocks -- at least here in California -- don't have
alleys.  This makes it potentially easier, because all you have to do is
remove the back fences from between the houses.

There are a couple of communities -- N St. in Davis, CA and OnGoing Concerns
in Portland, OR come to mind, and I know there are others -- which started
just this way, people in adjacent houses taking out the fences in between.
N St. has grown to 13 houses in this way.  They have some huge gardens, and
even a chicken coop, places for children to play, etc.

If you're expanding on an existing alleyway, you'll probably have to come up
with other places for people to put their cars, at least until we get the
transit and land use issues better resolved.  A possible solution would be
to cluster parking at either end of the block, one space per house, and
allow street parking for the rest.  The added benefits to this are more
exercise and greater interaction for the neighbors, and they can then
reclaim their garages for other uses, either as shops/storage, or "granny
flat" housing units, or taking them down & replacing them with greenhouses
or gardens.

Just some additional thoughts on the subject.

Loren
Loren Davidson
loren@wombat.net
http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
make no law".

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 07:41:18 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 05:59:31 WST
Reply-To: warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au
From: warwick@bettong.eepo.com.au (Warwick Rowell)
Message-ID: <321640ce.bettong@bettong.eepo.com.au>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: community gardens, city planning
Status: O
X-Status: 

Look carefully at the area, its population, and their characteristics.

I ran a community garden for three years which had over 200 flats and 
units within three minutes walking distance of the garden, and never 
had more than twelve people involved, which dwindled rapidly to a 
average three or four.  

It is now just about rampant, as the present person in charge also
has a small house block and two kids to attend to, and the local 
primary school now has its own garden and a massive rebeautification 
program for its P&C after a major building program.

This inner city suburb was/is discovering the delights of the cafe 
life-style, with capaccinos and croissants, rather than organic veg
you've grown yourself, and birds picking your hair for their nests!

So, doing it again, I would 
1. 	Go for the NEED. 
Look for the people older, or disabled in some way, who have a 
garden, a fruit tree, a lawn they can no longer maintain, and build 
community around helping them while sharing the produce. 
2. 	Do a neighbourhood inventory.
Particularly in the older suburbs, there will be things like lemons, 
figs, mulberries, oranges, mandarins, almost going to waste.. You could
well find some heirloom varieties that you could propogate.

Policy? 

Since when you could make policy for motivation, awareness and interest?
The policy is to get out of the way of people taking charge of themselves.

Warwick    

PS Could the list mom tell me how to resubscribe to permaculture-mg 
please?

Wx 
--
 ______________________________________________________________
                 warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au                  
      Permaculture Applications Consulting & Education  
   46 Bay View Crescent Dunsborough Western Australia 6281  

     Management Consultant     Permaculture Designer          
   "Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"

Building a new life and a 140 ha farm/village at 3339S 11504E

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 09:38:55 1996
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From: oxoasis@gnofn.org
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Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 07:56:15 -0500 (CDT)
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
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Subject: food relief&permaculture
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	If you are interested in an information exchange over food relief 
or permaculture, please write to me email.  


			Sincerely, 


			Cdas

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 10:22:10 1996
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Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:40:34 +1000 (GMT+1000)
From: Emanuele John Gelsi <s100962@student.uq.edu.au>
To: warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au
cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: community gardens, city planning
In-Reply-To: <321640ce.bettong@bettong.eepo.com.au>
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Dear Warwick, 
		could you please tell me where was the community garden  
in question? 

Emanuele J Gelsi

On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, Warwick Rowell wrote:

> Look carefully at the area, its population, and their characteristics.> 
> I ran a community garden for three years which had over 200 flats and 
> units within three minutes walking distance of the garden, and never 
> had more than twelve people involved, which dwindled rapidly to a 
> average three or four.  
> It is now just about rampant, as the present person in charge also
> has a small house block and two kids to attend to, and the local 
> primary school now has its own garden and a massive rebeautification 
> program for its P&C after a major building program.

> This inner city suburb was/is discovering the delights of the cafe 
> life-style, with capaccinos and croissants, rather than organic veg
> you've grown yourself, and birds picking your hair for their nests!
> 
> So, doing it again, I would 
> 1. 	Go for the NEED. 
> Look for the people older, or disabled in some way, who have a 
> garden, a fruit tree, a lawn they can no longer maintain, and build 
> community around helping them while sharing the produce. 
> 2. 	Do a neighbourhood inventory.
> Particularly in the older suburbs, there will be things like lemons, 
> figs, mulberries, oranges, mandarins, almost going to waste.. You could
> well find some heirloom varieties that you could propogate.
> 
> Policy? 
> 
> Since when you could make policy for motivation, awareness and interest?
> The policy is to get out of the way of people taking charge of themselves.
> 
> Warwick    
> 
> PS Could the list mom tell me how to resubscribe to permaculture-mg 
> please?
> 
> Wx 
> --
>  ______________________________________________________________
>                  warwick.rowell@eepo.com.au                  
>       Permaculture Applications Consulting & Education  
>    46 Bay View Crescent Dunsborough Western Australia 6281  
> 
>      Management Consultant     Permaculture Designer          
>    "Helping Managers Learn"___"Helping Land Managers Learn"
> 
> Building a new life and a 140 ha farm/village at 3339S 11504E
> 

Emanuele John Gelsi 
s100962@student.uq.edu.au
Dept of Anthropology and Sociology
University of Qld	Australia

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 10:38:34 1996
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To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        permaculture@gn.apc.org
From: robgil@yesyou.u-net.com (Rob Squires/Gill Ellison)
Subject: Land-use struggles
Message-Id: <96Aug18.123647bst.36586(2)@u-net.net>
Date: 	Sun, 18 Aug 1996 12:36:27 +0100
Status: RO
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"In 1995, the Tinker's Bubble Trust, a group of 11 people living in tents on
their smallholding in Somerset [United Kingdom], appealed against refusal of
planning permission for their dwellings. One of their main arguments was
that they needed to live on their land to pursue their chosen method of
agriculture, which was influenced by (among other things)the philosophy of
sustainable land-use, known as permaculture.

The Inspector spent two days at a Public Enquiry in the local village hall
examining the project and listening to local opinion, and three hours
looking round the Tinker's Bubble site. His conclusions were that the Trust
did have a need to live on the land and since their dwellings caused no
visual or highways impact, he saw no reason to refuse planning permission.

However, the Inspector's decision was immediately overturned by the
Secratary of State, John Gummer [Conservative] (who had never been anywhere
near the site). The main reason he gave for refusing planning permission was
that the Bubblers were subsistence farmers, "...carrying out an experiment
in living simply on the land and deriving a subsistence living from it, a
pattern of living which is sometimes called 'permaculture'. Any benefit of
these aims to the wider economy would be negligible, since minimal
agricultural and other produce would be available." ..."

- Extract of article in British Permaculture Magazine No.12 (Summer 1996)

The article continues by explaining how Gummer is quite wrong in that
Permaculture is not subsistance agriculture, and that the Tinker's Bubble
project is compatible with sustainable development, and the objectives of
Agenda 21 which can be defined as "... not consuming more than one's share
of the world's resources...". Furthermore, there is ample evidence to prove
that Tinkers Bubble is not, in fact practicing subsistence agriculture at
all, since last Autumn, the Trust exported a cash crop of some 15 tonnes of
apples to the local cider industry.  Gummer has set a precedent in British
planning law (excluding Scotland) which may have serious ramifications for
future British permaculturists seeking planning permission for integrated
rural land-use.

In a letter to the British Secretary of State, Bill Mollison wrote, "...As
originator of the term permaculture, I would like to make it clear that the
word Permaculture is a copyright term, and it's definition is not available
for re-interpretation by the High Court or anyone else... Permaculture ...
is the conscious design and maintenance of agriculturally productive
ecosystems, which have the diversity, stability, and resilience of natural
ecosystems..." 
 
For more information on the original article published in the British
Permaculture Magazine, contact Tim and Maddy Harland
<permaculture@gn.apc.org>. The magazine is published by Permanent
Publications who have a Web Site at http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e415/home.html.

This rescent decision by our gloriously mistaken leader, and steward of the
environment, John Gummer bares serious implications for the permaculture
movement in the UK. Permaculture is practised worldwide by over 20,000
graduates of design courses. No matter which part of the planet you inhabit,
please unite with British brothers and sisters in this global movement, and
support our course by writing to John Gummer, stating that he is wrong, and
that you feel very concerned about the effect this could have, and why you
feel permaculture is so important.

Send your letters to:

Rt Hon John Gummer MP,
Secretary of State for the Environment,
Houses of Parliment, 
Westminster,
London. U.K.

Unfortunately, an E:mail address is not available.

Please pass on this post wherever you feel it may be helpful.

Yours, in solidarity,

Rob Squires  
                           
 Rob Squires of CTCSystems | http://www.u-net.com/~yesyou
 Communitarianist          | E:mail - robgil@yesyou.u-net.com
 ========================= + ===========================================
 Gill Ellison              | http://www.connect.org.uk/merseyworld/ACSH/
 Age Concern - St.Helens   | E:mail -robgil@yesyou.u-net.com
                             
   

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 22:51:16 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'jrhall@iastate.edu'" <jrhall@iastate.edu>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:31:03 +-1000
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----------
From: 	jrhall@iastate.edu[SMTP:jrhall@iastate.edu]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 0:43
To: 	askpv@ozemail.com.au
Cc: 	permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

I think its interesting and useful to look at the social aspects as just 
another permaculture problem. Channel those visitors and make them 
contributors to your system (and obviously you are to theirs!). And just 
be direct and honest with visitors at unwanted times--few people really 
think the world should revolve around them... But mostly, congratulations 
on having this problem/resource! Lots of us are dreaming and working 
towards being where you're at!
Its easy - just set up a site that is highly accessible and easiily viewed
we are next to a pub and the pub overlooks the site, so does the street.
People look, the chooks or ducks calls them over and - it snowballs.


---
Jeff Hall	
jrhall@iastate.edu



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 23:35:36 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Joseph St. Lawrence'" <ES051447@orion.yorku.ca>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:36:49 +-1000
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Greetings,
	I spent a few years working as a period gardener at a historic 
site, and understand the distractions you are experiencing.  Part of my job 
involved interpretation (basically tours).  I found that a simple "hello" 
So true - so true - I always say hello to people - We always nod to people passing, 
and NOW I know I'm behaving like a city person - hiding my face - fearful that a raving
lunatic my pass - in the cities you're treated like a raving lunatic when you say
hello to strangers!!!  so True - thank you!
was plenty for most visitors, as they often preferred to muck about on 
their own -- if they had questions or displayed any confusion I'd spend as 
much time with them as they wanted, otherwise I'd continue with my work.  I 
think those visiting your site will have some understanding of 
permaculture, and will perhaps not need much explained -- they may offer 
helpful suggestions, too!

Well permaculture is huge field - and eternally complex - I'll never know enough.
I think you're advantage is that you were working in a public space so people felt
free to wander and quietly absorb.
I'll try to incorporate that in my system I think.
When kids ask to come and explore the back part which is wild - I say fine, just look out for 
snakes I call as they start mucking about, and the're off like rockets!!!
Regards, j
Thankyou, April


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 18 23:47:46 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'carmela leone'" <cleone@ozonline.com.au>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:28:40 +-1000
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I think I'll ask the universe for more sites like mine and then I will become
commonplace, happy and the whole worlds peoples richer!!
the amazing thing is - I DONT advertise the site - not yet anyway!!
I need get a system but I hate being locked in to systems.

----------
From: 	carmela leone[SMTP:cleone@ozonline.com.au]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 19:10
To: 	April Sampson-Kelly
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

Poor April!  It must be a very cool place you have!  I might pop in one day!
(just kidding - although I will pop in ONE day...)

My place is not as big or as well advertised as yours!  I am fairly private
too and I give off the vibe that makes people feel like they are intruding -
this is when I don't want them to visit me, that is...  Otherwise, I'm
generous like you, but as I said, not as well advertised...  

Ask the Universe for more time to do the things you have to do!

Good luck and Blessings

Carmela
              
              ************************************************************
               'The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, 
                   but the cultivation and perfection of human beings'.   
                    Masanobu Fukuoka - 'The One-Straw Revolution'
                                ***************
                                 Carmela Leone
                          Email: cleone@ozonline.com.au
         Home Page: http://www.ozonline.com.au/permaculture/index.html

           
                          ******************************  




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 00:25:19 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Colin Morton'" <anvil@iap.net.au>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:56:38 +-1000
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Hi  April
I am in a similar Boat I run a small Blacksmiths forge and the whole world
loves to wander in to have a look.
I used to let this happen until I read the book (temporarily forgotton the
title)about the couple who built and flew the nonstop aircraft" Voyager"
around the world. In the book Ms Jaeger relates the same problem of
interested well wishers and how they stated that every new visitor was
allowed 5minutes to hear of the planes contruction progress and then If
they wanted to hear more they where expected to pitch in and help. 
It soon helps dampen the timewasters enthusiasm when they are asked to
sweep a floor etc.
This may sound a little mercinary and it can be rather difficult to say
these things to enthusiastic people but you have to eat.
The other suggestion that I have is (and I have thought ofdoing 
similarly) is putting up a sign saying  visitors welcome On a certain time
Ie two hours on Sat or guided tours Between say 3 -5 $10.00 each . David
Holmgren  charges $40 a visit I'm told.  I'd like not a turn people away -on the grounds
of not being able to afford a visit, also  I get greatest satisfaction from 
the aspect of permaculture where we empower people to take better control of
their needs and seek more earth friendly supplies.
conducting tours is fine if I want to do that for the rest of my life - I am convinced now that
even selling the surplus fruit is not what I come to earth for - picking thousands of fruit
in summer is tedious, potting up plants year after year  kills your back.  I'll stick to
sharing the fruit with helpers I think.  and then I don't have to pray for a good harvest to
maintain reliable supply.

recently someone even suggested I could earn good money 
with high quality garden based childcare!! WOW
1.  as if I can't earn good money with my profession
 (women with small children 
are often mistaken for morons I think) 
OR 
2.  as though I should be compelled to sell everything I can do lovingly!!!
3.  I don't believe that everything has a price/monetary value.
4.  People's expectations change when they start paying money.

I agree tours for a fee is sensible as it helps restrict the numer of tours per
enquiror but I have a problem already steming from turning a hobby into a
small successful business,  I need less MONEY and more quality time.
I
believe that if you advertise your need for privacy and be firm in
enforcing it you should be OK
Let me know how you get on
REGARDS
COLIN MORTON. Permaculture fan
Thank you Colin - you have helped me formulate ideas and hope you don't
think me rude in relating my recent experiences of people a lot less understanding
than you and others on the mailing list.

Why not grow from being a fan into and fantastic activist Colin??

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 00:31:11 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'jack rowe'" <75554.631@compuserve.com>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: privacy
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:15:53 +-1000
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From: 	jack rowe[SMTP:75554.631@CompuServe.COM]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 5:23
To: 	April Sampson-Kelly
Subject: 	privacy

April,

	As founding co-director of Texas' first incorporated non-profit
permacultre institute (Cross Timbers Permaculture Institute --
http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ctpi -- some interesting links on
http://csf.colorado.edu/), I know  well how you feel. In my case, I worked with
a very extroverted individual (Kirby Fry -- 72530.1353@compuserve.com --  his
more introverted wife, Inger Myrhe, a quietly brilliant and engaging person, may
have some ideas for you or at least be able to commisserate). Being quite a
hermit myself, visitors were very hard on me. Whereas Kirby's extroversion
allowed him to be energetically recharged by visitors, I would be drained and
needed more recovery time than I actually ever got. When I told Kirby I needed a
place farther away from all the people, he pointed to a spot about 50 meters
away, in plain sight. I said, "you don't understand, if someone comes to my
house, I want them to have to have TRIED to get there".

	 Perhaps there is a more outgoing person who can take over visitors and
you can just do as I always did and try to look inconspicuous -- like the kid in
the back of the classroom who's hoping the teacher doesn't ask her a question? I
feel a vital part of any public place is enough people with the required
abilities and "personal bents". Many activists are like myself, and perhaps
yourself, wanting to move into the world and accomplish something meaningful and
finding that this requires violating the personal privacy many eclectic
individuals or "social outcasts" have come to appreciate. 
Well I am gregarious (that's my good side of course!!) and I have lived in public spaces
my parents were active in politics and can mix well with a wide range of people -
the thing is - I don't want to change and so I bring out the welcome grin - and I'm
getting burnt out maybe,  I want to find a harmonious, comfortable medium of
exchange here - I don't want to find myself running away from my own site. 

	I suppose jrhall's idea of just turning people away could work for some,
not for others. Short of that, maybe a small interpretive brochure, Yeah - I realise
this would save a lot of talk - or would fill in all the gaps -  I realise less and less
each day what the average person dooesn't SEE and doesn't KNOW!!
a trail with
numbered posts, a list of hours for guided tours, and a fee for both, maybe $2 -
$5 (I don't know how y'all write your money symbols?) how sweet - 
I know some people aren't sure we are speaking English either!!  We speak slowly
but we don't think slowly!!
 for self-guided and $8 -
$10 for guided tours? Oh, well, just felt for you and your predicament, I know
how you feel. You might send Kirb or Inger a note and see what they have to
offer,  good luck with all,  Jack Rowe, Texas, US (30  N Lat.).

P.S. Yep, I believe you are right, permaculture and culture in general are
evolving systems. Create your own realities and run with them -- just remember,
always, to QUESTION REALITY! 
Thanks for your time - April




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 00:35:45 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net'" <blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:08:55 +-1000
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One thing I have
had to learn is how to create a boundary and communicate it. At first, I
figured that people would stop coming by since I was so rude:-)  Not the
case..Usually, I find simply saying that I am involved in weeding, beading,
seeding, whatever it is allows for the visitor to stay if they choose while
I continue what I am doing! Sometimes they may even lend a hand!
REcently I has looping a thick branch with a bow saw and two guys who live up
the road and know me through a friend of a friend starting talking about the 
cut, the speed of my saw etc, then they decided to help and discovered I had been 
much faster even though I am small!
So they left after me politely fighting them and the tree.

 The gardens you have to show, obvious to most, would not be what they are
if you were not working with them ALOT!  So, keep on with whatever task you
are doing..possibly modifying your scheduling so that it allows for talking
while doing..saving efforts that require more focus and silence for when
they leave!  Your choosing to stay to the task at hand is a statement in
itself and if the people want more time to tour, etc, perhaps setting an
appointment to do that would work better for you.  In fact, possibly set a
few folks coming at the some time.  Not exactly an OPEN day, but a privately
arranged appointment.  This could be alot of fun and set the stage for your
own variety of disseminating information...AND in your own time.  
Yes I like that idea and will try it.  I shall gather names and call them back when
I have time to get them together.
Actually, I am still working with tempering this one..it's never an easy
situation..always calls for a certain kind of diplomacy.  When I would be
frustrated and feeling "put upon" I wasn't exactly the best of company..now
I can be kind to them while I take care of myself. I suspect this is one we
all need to master as mainstream is becoming very intrigued by what we are
doing.  Good luck! 

Vicki








At 11:23 AM 8/12/96 +-1000, you wrote:
>Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
>We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
>share many of the ups and downs with our students - Most
>live far away and unfortunately for them haven't seen the site
>- it is not complete and most will be for ever evolving
>The dilema is that people are so enthused by our work
> they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
>chat and I just can't get anything done.
>I'm getting to the point where I am afraid to go into the garden
>in case some one sees me, and wants to talk permaculture!!
>I like to be generous - that's why I like permaculture
>I like the sharing side of this way of life.
>I thought of running an open day but I don't feel ready - and anyway
>that might just attract MORE sightseers on the off days.
>I realise there is a shortage of permaculture sites - but permaculture
>isn't a collective business - or some kind of religion - for me
>it is about modifying our behaviour until is seems a normal way of life.
>And being a spectacle isn't part of normal for me. 
>Any suggestions - any one else in the same boat?
>
>
>




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 00:37:26 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Loren Davidson'" <loren@wombat.net>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
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----------
From: 	Loren Davidson[SMTP:loren@wombat.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, 13 August 1996 2:49
To: 	April Sampson-Kelly
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

At 11:23 AM 8/12/96 +-1000, you wrote:
>Is there anyone else who suffers from our dilema?
>We have a demonstration site that we are developing and
>share many of the ups and downs with our students - (...)
> they visit us regularly - I feel compelled to give them a tour and
>chat and I just can't get anything done.

I have a couple of thoughts, from other situations where I've tried to get
something done with people hanging around me:

1)  Establish "official" visiting hours, when you (or your helpers -- HINT)
will be available to give tours and answer questions.  During non-visiting
hours, you may be able to "teach by doing" -- do the stuff you were planning
to do anyway, but be willing to explain (with any free breaths you have)
exactly what you're doing and how it fits with the whole.  

2)  Hand things like shovels, spading forks, etc. to the bystanders and tell
them how *they* can help (during non-visiting hours at the very least).  If
people are *that* interested in Permaculture, then it's only fair you share
*all* the experience with them.  It's a bit subversive, but it will cause
the "looky loos" to vanish and will help you get the job done with the
people who are *really* interested...
a lot of my visitors are those who are part of the system from time to time
I must admit, they are giving me mulch or plants or office stuff - so I have to 
give them TLC for want of a better term.
Even so - our garden gives them something and they never leave empty handed.

3)  Have a sign made up and posted at the entrance to your gardens,
answering the most commonly asked questions, listing official visiting
hours, the reasons for same, and the risk of being asked to help if a person
wanders in at an otherwise inconvenient time.  
I like that !!!- "enter at own risk - risk
of being given a job that get your hands dirty"

4)  Similarly, make up a flyer for a "self-guided tour" of your garden and
have copies in a sheltered kiosk at the entrance to the gardens.  Yes -
I will do this seeing I already have that stuff on the home page and have 
full colour poster size designs for lots of other people!! should do it for 
ourselves.

5)  Learn how to talk with people and work at the same time.  I almost
didn't put this in, but this may be part of what you need to work on.
Permaculture is about sharing the surplus...but it's also, I believe, about
taking care of your own.  
This is really the hardest part - I didn't want to turn others off permaculture sites
being open to visitors BUT THIS CAUSES GREATEST SORROW - when people
come to visit and the children talk to them and they respond to the children to 
get them to be quiet or go away!!!  This is their home and they helped build all the gardens
this is their work and they are now - copying us and pointing things out here and there!!
I'm a great gabber myself, and will take any
opportunity to stop what I'm doing and chat with folks.  One of the things
*I'm* working on is the discipline to stop talking and start working after a
certain set time.  
Go with the flow Loren - we don't fight nature so why fight your own nature?
And I think you really *can* teach as much, if not more,
by letting people watch as you're actually working on things...
True - and you can teach what people are ready to learn
Good luck...sounds like your main problem is that of too much success!
Thanks for your time, April
Loren
Loren Davidson
loren@wombat.net
http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
make no law".




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 12:34:25 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Cc: askpv@ozemail.com.au
Subject: RE: privacy
Reply-To: peltier@isi.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 08:35:15 PDT
From: Jennifer Peltier <peltier@isi.edu>
Status: O
X-Status: 

HI All,

I read April's message and all the responses with much interest.  I
have quite the opposite situation though am equally frustrated.  I
live in LA, CA where there are small pockets of permaculture activity.
I am involved in community gardening, with my current emphasis on
compost.  In LA there are 16 demonstration sites for composting which
were originally run by a volunteer corps through the state.  They are
now run by a private company.  Long story short....I am responsible
for clean up, pile building, demonstration at 2 of the 16 sites.  My
problem, the community simply does not understand what "Demonstration
Site" means.  I find bags and bags of grass clippings out front every
week, despite a posted sign and county code warning of the illegality
of dumping.  When I catch someone I am told they were instructed by
some unnamed authority to bring grass.  I have many years of
experience and from my perspective, grass is a complete pain and waste
to compost.  Better to leave it on the lawn as mulch or mulch with it
somewhere else...though my personal opinion is to erradicate lawns in
our not so much of a desert anymore.  So, as a show to the community,
I have been taking in the grass and mulching.  This saved me much back
breaking labor pulling out the overgrown weeds.  I am getting interest
from the community on this action alone.  I also counsel on how to
leave the grass on the lawn and tell them they are welcome to bring a
small amount of household (compostable) waste if they are willing to
stay for a 10-15 min demo.  A fair trade in anyone's book.  To get to
the point...

1) I find the community split basically in half:  Those who think they
are doing me a favor by dumping their grass on me and those who
complain about the people dumping illegally.  As soon as I suggest
they come in to learn, the face goes blank, the time register comes up
empty and I spend more time teaching people how to write down liscense
plate numbers to call the police (to enforce illegal dumping).  Am I
frustrated, yes, very much.  I'm wondering if enthusiasm will just
build or if this is it....

2) I learned from my supervisor yesterday ( a person who knows
traditional landscape design and nothing about actually working the
land...ok I'm getting my digs and setting the stage), that the policy
of the organization I work for is to "keep the demo sites clean".  She
spent a whole day raking up the grass that I used for mulch.  To which
I said she was not very smart because that was back breaking work.
And now, who's going to pull up those weeds?  SO, this seems
contradictory.  We in LA have to reduce the amount of waste going into
the municipal stream.  We have deadlines for waste reduction on the
books and if we do not pull together as a community, we get fined.  I
find that the company I work for has a charter to reduce waste but their
official policy on the grass is to let the city pick it up to put in
the waste stream.  Am I frustrated, once again yes.  I instantly
demanded a raise and refused to "apologize for my indescretion against
the policy of my company" (I choose to see this as standing for a
principal as opposed to being irrational...).  Deep down if standing
on pricipal is my goal, I know what I have to do.  I am 100%
disillusioned right now and I don't like the feeling.  I have tons of
enthusiasm and I do live by example, anyone is welcome into my garden
any time.  I know I cannot let the completely irrational policy of my
company ie) mulching not allowed due to the alleged untidiness, affect
me but it really does.  I find that the person heading the task force
for this effort is no less than the governor of the state.  

I mean more than to just vent.  I would really like suggestions.  One
friend told me I need to start my own thing if I want to make a
difference.  I'd love suggestions here to.  Also, any one in S. Cal
(let's say San Diego to Santa Barbara, I'm willing to travel) have
examples of permaculture in either a community or home setting that I
could visit as I would greatly appreciate the opportunity.
I had plans for the compost sites I operate to introduce
permaculture techs. but it seems from my current perspective that this
won't happen...at least not easily and I'm not sure it's worth the
struggle.  

Take care, Jennifer

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 14:55:51 1996
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Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:36:07 -0400
From: "Michael A. Lefsky" <mal3p@faraday.clas.virginia.edu>
Message-Id: <199608191836.OAA142244@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU>
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92)
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Unsubscribe
Status: O
X-Status: 

Will the moderator of this group please remove my name from the
mailing list?

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 20:00:18 1996
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From: hwaldock@alternatives.com
Message-Id: <199608192249.SAA04014@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: 19 Aug 1996 15:48:38 PDT
Subject: PNW Permaculture Rendevous & News
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hello Greening Friends:

I am just back from Arlington WA, where I stayed at Prag Tree Farm.
This is
the place where Seattle Tilth was formed, Binda Colebrook
researched and wrote
her book and where a wild salad business was
developed in the early 80's by
Mark Musak.

The new collective that Evergreen land Trust  welcomed to the site is
called
Where Art Is Living.  They are undergoing a startup phase.

The Permaculture Rendevous  was successful.  80 participants.  All kinds
of
big names: Ianto Evans, Micheal Pilarski, Mark Musak, Larry Santoyo,
Simon
Henderson, Toby Hemenway,  Penny Livingston...
Many of these people have been
activists and designers for 15 years.
Larry and Penny (and her husband ) are
into multi million design
projects, and fully integrated with Community
Economic Development work.
There is now a Permaculture Institute in Reays
California.

2 days of workshops songs dances, slide shows, talk hands on
workshops
camping and talking.   This Pacific Northwest Permaculture Rendevous
is
an annual event most recently, and used to be a the Bullock Brothers
Farm
on Orcas Island.


The other event that was interesting was that the Seattle
Permaculture
Implementation Guild has formally associated itself with Seattle
Tilth
so that logistical support could be provided.

I think that VPN could learn from this experience and I am going to
propose
this  to FFCF  more formally when I can learn what comittments are
required.
What do people think?    Please think of one or two proposals
that might work
for both parties.  VPN really needs to get newsletters
out and have a phone
that people can call and an address people can
write.  (I seem to have no
fixed address...Shiobhan R.is having a
baby...etc etc.)

More Good news:   The ffcf-l listserver is up and running and will
be
supported.  Tell your friends about it.  the permanw-l  permaculture
north
west listserver is also up.  Expect more messages.  Send a message
with
subscribe to ffcf-l@alternatives.com or permanw-l@alternatives.com
in the
subject line or unsubscribe if you have too much mail.

This message may be edited and appear at in a newsletter soon...

Has been distributed to ffcf-l and permanw-l .

Harold Waldock

hwaldock@alternatives.com

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 19 21:20:21 1996
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From: Permanw-l@alternatives.com
Message-Id: <199608200010.UAA05542@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: 19 Aug 1996 16:56:16 PDT
Subject: listserv up - Can Van. Perma. Net link with ffcf
Status: O
X-Status: 

-------------< COMMENTS BY Harold Waldock >--------------

Hello International Permaculture People!

I have been away from lurking for a long time and miss getting
Permaculture discussions and announcements occaisionally.

Here is my two bits below.  Permaculture in the Pacific North West of
North America is alive and mulching.  This area includes British
Columbia (Canada) Washingtion State, Oregon, Utah (USA). We had
representatives from California.

There is much more news than annouced...ask me for details.  Some new
web sites will be sprining up soon.  Friends of the Trees site is
moving.

Harold Waldock  B.Sc.
hwaldock@alternatives.com

The Edible Gardeners: Elegant solutions for Ecological living.
Landscaping and Design

----------< END OF COMMENTS BY Harold Waldock >----------


Hello Greening Friends:

I am just back from Arlington WA, where I stayed at Prag Tree Farm.
This is the place where Seattle Tilth was formed, Binda Colebrook
researched and wrote her book and where a wild salad business was
developed in the early 80's by Mark Musak.

The new collective that Evergreen land Trust  welcomed to the site is
called Where Art Is Living.  They are undergoing a startup phase.

The Permaculture Rendevous  was successful.  80 participants.  All kinds
of big names: Ianto Evans, Micheal Pilarski, Mark Musak, Larry Santoyo,
Simon Henderson, Toby Hemenway,  Penny Livingston...
Many of these people have been activists and designers for 15 years.
Larry and Penny (and her husband ) are into multi million design
projects, and fully integrated with Community Economic Development work.
There is now a Permaculture Institute in Reays California.

2 days of workshops songs dances, slide shows, talk hands on workshops
camping and talking.   This Pacific Northwest Permaculture Rendevous is
an annual event most recently, and used to be a the Bullock Brothers
Farm on Orcas Island.


The other event that was interesting was that the Seattle Permaculture
Implementation Guild has formally associated itself with Seattle Tilth
so that logistical support could be provided.

I think that VPN could learn from this experience and I am going to
propose this  to FFCF  more formally when I can learn what comittments are
required.  What do people think?    Please think of one or two proposals
that might work for both parties.  VPN really needs to get newsletters
out and have a phone that people can call and an address people can
write.  (I seem to have no fixed address...Shiobhan R.is having a
baby...etc etc.)

More Good news:   The ffcf-l listserver is up and running and will be
supported.  Tell your friends about it.  the permanw-l  permaculture
north west listserver is also up.  Expect more messages.  Send a message
with subscribe to ffcf-l@alternatives.com or permanw-l@alternatives.com
in the subject line or unsubscribe if you have too much mail.

This message may be edited and appear at in a newsletter soon...

Has been distributed to ffcf-l and permanw-l .

Harold Waldock

hwaldock@alternatives.com

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 20 21:19:55 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: martha.hills@cis.csiro.au (Martha Hills)
Subject: software info wanted
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi folks,

This is my first messge, having subscribed just this morning.

I'm compiling a leaflet on permaculture and computers (or should
I call it PC and PCs?).  Have found lots of info on web sites,
gophers, mail lists.  Now I'd like to get some info on what
(types of) software you use for storing information or designing
projects.

Thanks for any help.

Onward, Martha

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Martha R. Hills
Coordinator, Authority work           The secret of all victory
Corporate Information Management      lies in the organization
CSIRO Australia                       of the non-obvious.

Email:  martha.hills@cis.csiro.au
Telephone:  + (0)3 9518 5941
Fax:        + (0)3 9518 5959
Mail: Locked Bag 89, Clayton South VIC Australia 3169

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 00:03:41 1996
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Message-ID: <01BB8F5D.74247F20@slwol1p52.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Milogic@aol.com'" <Milogic@aol.com>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: the PPP issues
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:44:49 +-1000
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 No sufferance of fools was high on his list of
guidelines  and  both could be as soft as kittens to the sincere but ignorant
who were willing to work it out.
What does a fool look like - that's my first problem!!
Thankyou anyway, I will try to sort goats from sheep then again I might want wallabies instead.

Nisargadatta Maharaj always asked newcomers, "Why are you here?" 
I like that one, won't I look a fool?  Too bad.
He had a
special place for the arrogant, know-it-alls (usually westerners). 
There are no non-westerners here really - previous generationsknocked 'em all off 
When they
answered that they had come to see him, he would glare hard and say, "You've
seen me. Now you can go."

Milo
Cheers - April



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 00:29:42 1996
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Message-ID: <01BB8F5D.6D7F2440@slwol1p52.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        "'Ken Yeomans'" <yeomans@keyline.com.au>
Subject: RE: Past experience with too many visitors.
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:44:30 +-1000
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WOW what an honour - The Keyline family!!!
Thankyou for your response, I do feel ungrateful as I realise that
I do learn from each visitor even if they say nothing!! I look at the 
site anew and see little things each time. 
I am honoured by your assistance and had no idea there was a home page
for Keyline,
I will add it to our home page
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~askpv/index.html
Thankyou
----------
From: 	Ken Yeomans[SMTP:yeomans@keyline.com.au]
Sent: 	Monday, 19 August 1996 16:22
To: 	askpv@ozemail.com.au
Subject: 	Past experience with too many visitors.

Dear April Sampson-Kelly,

Back in the 1950's on the original Keyline properties at North Richmond NSW
we had a similar problem.  We solved it by allowing visitors to our regular
farm walks on a Sunday afternoon only. That way all the buses (as it turned
out) then arrived at a suitable time and our work force could get on with
the job.
Bus loads frighten me - I am sure I won't be as intriguing as your line.

A welcoming notice on the gate defining times when visitors will be
welcomed would help.  

I wish you all the best, you may like to check out the Keyline Designs web
site.
<http:www.keyline.com.au>

Regards,

Ken Yeomans

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Ken Yeomans, Keyline Designs PO Box 3289 Southport, Qld 4215 AUSTRALIA
+61-7-5591-6281 phone (GMT + 10 hours!) +61-7-5527-0847 fax
Email:  yeomans@keyline.com.au URL:  http://www.keyline.com.au
Agricultural consulting, book distributor: Property planning for
sustainable agriculture, bio-organic soil regeneration and Landcare.
Contoured farm photomaps for remote planning, water conservation, hillside
flood irrigation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 00:32:53 1996
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Message-ID: <01BB8F5D.78E318A0@slwol1p52.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'C.Morton'" <anvil@iap.net.au>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:45:02 +-1000
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Thank you for replying,You posed the question Why not grow from being a fan into
 and fantastic activist Colin??
Well thats a very good question.I just went and pulled Permaculture 1 from
the bookshelf and to my shock/horror the date inside Feb 84.And the only
thing I hhave done is set up a Productive apiary.
The single biggest problem I face Is lack of money. I have to make some
drastic changes myself
I am interested to know how many responses your enquiry elicited
Regards Colin Morton
Well an aviary is quite a lot more than many of us started out with, Is it planted inside
with things that require protection from larger birds?  Have you covered the structure
with vines?  does the Birds water come off the structure?  Do you use the manure?
Do you grow their seed?  Do you grow worms for the birds too?  Have you put some
egg layer in there for yummy breakfast E.g. Hens, bantams, Quail?

It could be loads of fun,
April

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 00:44:19 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'peltier@ISI.EDU'" <peltier@isi.edu>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: privacy
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 17:36:21 +-1000
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HI All,

I read April's message and all the responses with much interest.  I
have quite the opposite situation though am equally frustrated.  I
live in LA, CA where there are small pockets of permaculture activity.
I am involved in community gardening, with my current emphasis on
compost.  In LA there are 16 demonstration sites for composting which
were originally run by a volunteer corps through the state.  They are
now run by a private company.  Long story short....I am responsible
for clean up, pile building, demonstration at 2 of the 16 sites.  My
problem, the community simply does not understand what "Demonstration
Site" means.  I find bags and bags of grass clippings out front every
week, despite a posted sign and county code warning of the illegality
of dumping.  When I catch someone I am told they were instructed by
some unnamed authority to bring grass.  I have many years of
experience and from my perspective, grass is a complete pain and waste
to compost.  Better to leave it on the lawn as mulch or mulch with it
somewhere else...though my personal opinion is to erradicate lawns in
our not so much of a desert anymore.  So, as a show to the community,
I have been taking in the grass and mulching.  
We acutally welcome as much paper and grass clippings as people can bring, of
course we don't welcome rubbish or large branches - It is working extremely well
All our beds are NO SOIL, NO DIG gardens, I simply lay cardboard and paper, then
loads of uncomposted grass clippings and move on, when the bed is ready I sow direct into
the decaying matter as long as it isn't too hot - then I just cool it with regular watering, Or
I wait a bit more and put in seedlings!! Easy - we get loads of tomatoes, lettuce, even small trees
like pigeon pea and native hibiscus.
This saved me much back
breaking labor pulling out the overgrown weeds.  I am getting interest
from the community on this action alone.  I also counsel on how to
leave the grass on the lawn and tell them they are welcome to bring a
small amount of household (compostable) waste if they are willing to
stay for a 10-15 min demo.  A fair trade in anyone's book.  To get to
the point...

1) I find the community split basically in half:  Those who think they
are doing me a favor by dumping their grass on me and those who
complain about the people dumping illegally.  As soon as I suggest
they come in to learn, the face goes blank, the time register comes up
empty and I spend more time teaching people how to write down liscense
plate numbers to call the police (to enforce illegal dumping).  Am I
frustrated, yes, very much.  I'm wondering if enthusiasm will just
build or if this is it....

2) I learned from my supervisor yesterday ( a person who knows
traditional landscape design and nothing about actually working the
land...ok I'm getting my digs and setting the stage), that the policy
of the organization I work for is to "keep the demo sites clean".  She
spent a whole day raking up the grass that I used for mulch.  To which
I said she was not very smart because that was back breaking work.
And now, who's going to pull up those weeds?  SO, this seems
contradictory.  We in LA have to reduce the amount of waste going into
the municipal stream.  We have deadlines for waste reduction on the
books and if we do not pull together as a community, we get fined.  I
find that the company I work for has a charter to reduce waste but their
official policy on the grass is to let the city pick it up to put in
the waste stream.  Am I frustrated, once again yes.  I instantly
demanded a raise and refused to "apologize for my indescretion against
the policy of my company" (I choose to see this as standing for a
principal as opposed to being irrational...).  Deep down if standing
on pricipal is my goal, I know what I have to do.  I am 100%
disillusioned right now and I don't like the feeling.  I have tons of
enthusiasm and I do live by example, anyone is welcome into my garden
any time.  I know I cannot let the completely irrational policy of my
company ie) mulching not allowed due to the alleged untidiness, affect
me but it really does.  I find that the person heading the task force
for this effort is no less than the governor of the state.  
My advise is loose the supervisor - get out!! without burning bridges - life is
too short to live in the shadow of poor leaders.

I mean more than to just vent.  I would really like suggestions.  One
friend told me I need to start my own thing if I want to make a
difference.  I'd love suggestions here to.  Also, any one in S. Cal
(let's say San Diego to Santa Barbara, I'm willing to travel) have
examples of permaculture in either a community or home setting that I
could visit as I would greatly appreciate the opportunity.
I had plans for the compost sites I operate to introduce
permaculture techs. but it seems from my current perspective that this
won't happen...at least not easily and I'm not sure it's worth the
struggle.  
PS we don't compost - scraps go to hens or to worms or as mulch - compost
needs care and so we don't bother, also compost in Australia breeds
fruit fly - which is incredibly depressing to fight.
Take a major step Jennifer - get into what you want to do.
April
Take care, Jennifer



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 09:30:21 1996
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From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: Martha Hills <martha.hills@cis.csiro.au>
CC: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: software info wanted
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Martha Hills wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> This is my first messge, having subscribed just this morning.
> 
> I'm compiling a leaflet on permaculture and computers (or should
> I call it PC and PCs?).  Have found lots of info on web sites,
> gophers, mail lists.  Now I'd like to get some info on what
> (types of) software you use for storing information or designing
> projects.
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Onward, Martha

Hi Martha...

...This is not an answer to your request for information about PC's 
for Pc, rather a question to do with whether you will publish your 
leaflet on the discussion list. I too am interested in what software 
is suitable for design work (for use on a Mac). 

The only specifically permaculture software I have come across I no 
longer have the contact details for. One was some sort of design tool 
and plant list produced by somebody called Ninja Designs in Victoria 
(Australia). Comments I received from a person who used a demo of the 
program were that it was of dubious value - I don't know what he 
actually meant by that comment.

The only other specifically permaculture software that I know in 
preparation was to come out of the UK. I saw a brief report on it in 
Permanent Publications "Permaculture Solutions" magazine about 18 
months ago. Thay are online and have a web site. Contact Maddy 
Harland.

My use of software is to do mainly with permaculture journal 
production, for community association activities and permaculture in 
schools projects. For that I use Pagemaker 6, Microsoft Word 
(sparingly), Filemaker Pro (database). I think Claris Impact could be 
useful in permaculture project planning as it can do gannt charts 
(timelines) and other planning graphics. Inspiration is useful in 
publications and for student notes as it provides the opportunity to 
graphically represent information rather than produce it in text - it 
does mindmap-type diagrams.

Sorry I can't be of more use but I would like to learn the results of 
your work.

Regards...

...Russ Grayson
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> Martha R. Hills
> Coordinator, Authority work           The secret of all victory
> Corporate Information Management      lies in the organization
> CSIRO Australia                       of the non-obvious.
> 
> Email:  martha.hills@cis.csiro.au
> Telephone:  + (0)3 9518 5941
> Fax:        + (0)3 9518 5959
> Mail: Locked Bag 89, Clayton South VIC Australia 3169
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 11:19:46 1996
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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 00:52:06 +1000 (EST)
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To: oxoasis@gnofn.org, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: Re: food relief&permaculture
Status: O
X-Status: 

Dear Cdas,

We here at PGAN are certainly interested in permaculture and food relief.
In fact, on Saturday I ran a course for International Development Aid
Managers and I had a World Vision officer ask me for help - she's going off
to Rwanda next week...   Do you know any permaculture people/projects in Rwanda?

Adam

Re:
>Date: 7:11 AM  Aug 18, 1996
>From: oxoasis@gnofn.org
>newsgroup: list.permaculture
>Subject: food relief&permaculture
>
>	If you are interested in an information exchange over food relief 
>or permaculture, please write to me email.  
>
>			Sincerely, 
>
>			Cdas

Adam Tiller
Permaculture Global Assistance Network
8 James St, Fitzroy Vic 3065
Melbourne, Australia
Tel: +61 3 9419 1542             Fax: +61 3 9853 6828
Email: adamt@peg.pegasus.oz.au   WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~pgan


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 12:03:45 1996
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To: susag.permaculture@nf.peg.apc.org, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: adamt@peg.apc.org (Adam Tiller)
Subject: indigenous planting and permaculture: Forum by Green Australia
Status: O
X-Status: 

Subject: indigenous planting and permaculture: Forum by Green Australia 
Date: 21 Aug 1996 13:13:07 +1000 
From: adamt@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: melb.general, melb.seminars, aus.environment.conservation,
susag.permaculture

Forum: Is there a role for indigenous permaculture?
   -  Integrating the goals and principles of  -
   -  ecological restoration and permaculture  -

10am - 4pm, Sunday 25 August 1996
Princes Hill Secondary College
Arnold St, North Carlton, Melbourne, Australia
$35 / $12 members of supporting organisations
Lunch and afternoon tea provided

A number of excellent speakers, including David Holmgren, who co-founded
Permaculture with Bill Mollison, will present case studies and workshops on
urban and rural issues covering topics like invasive plants, bush foods,
local government policies, biodiversity, land restoration.

Contact Greening Australia for bookings and information: Tel. 9457 3024

For more information on Permaculture in Melbourne, join us: $20/$10 conc
  Permaculture Melbourne
  6 Derby St, KEW 3101
  tel: 9853 6828

Supporting organisations:
  Greening Australia
  Environs Australia
  Permaculture Melbourne
  Indigenous Flora and Fauna Association
  Melbourne Parks and Waterways
  Department of Natural Resources

---
Adam Tiller
Australian Conservation Foundation
340 Gore St, Fitzroy VIC 3065
Melbourne, Australia
Tel: +61 3 9416 1166 bh    Tel: +61 3 9419 1542 ah
Fax: +61 3 9416 0767 bh    Fax: +61 3 9416 2746 ah
Email: adamt@peg.pegasus.oz.au
WWW: http://www.peg.apc.org/~adamt

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 21 18:22:09 1996
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From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: Hydro Ram pumps and Duckbill Ram pumps
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 16:52:15 -0500 (CDT)
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 

I found some web sites with hydro ram pumps, but I seem to 
recall something in Permaculture International a few years
back about a "duckbill" hydro ram pump.  

My understanding of hydro rams are that they operate by 
the fall of water (from a pond downwards), whereby the 
ram pump can then push the water uphill.  It operates off the 
force of gravity.  

The duckbill, as I recall, will work in a streambed and function 
off of the lateral movement of water.  Thus, you could place
a duckbill pump into a flowing steam and pump water uphill. 
 
This is different from a regular ram pump whereby a drop in water
requires an elevation change and therefore the building of
a dam in a streambed to achieve a change in height.  

A nearby remote watermelon/veggie patch in the Oklahoma Ozarks would 
benefit from a duckbill and I need some info and a supplier. 

Thanks!   
Steve Diver
steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 00:23:21 1996
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From: hwaldock@alternatives.com
Message-Id: <199608230318.XAA11506@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: 22 Aug 1996 13:05:30 PDT
Subject: Regular Meetings of Permaculture!  Last Thursdays
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hello Earth Care 'ers:

There is now a regular meeting on the last Thursday of every month at
Cottonwood Gardens.  6:30pm bring potluck/picknick dinner and cardboard.
Be ready to sheet mulch some trees, identify permaculture trees, learn
about what has been happening and what will be going on.

Oliver Kellhammer leads the event.   This is a Vancouver Permaculture
Network Event.  Please pass the word around.

Note: Harold Waldock's address & phone is new:

phone 589 7275

address (Brian Lutes place)

9641 -139th Street
Surrey
V3T 5H3

Subscribe to the permanw-l@alternatives.com  listserv.

Just send a message to permanw-l@alternatives.com with subscribe in the
subject line.

This has been sent to both my old mailing list and to listserv.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 07:22:35 1996
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:44:10 +0200
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
Subject: Re: software info wanted
Cc: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

>leaflet on the discussion list. I too am interested in what software
>is suitable for design work (for use on a Mac).

Me too on Mac. :-)

I know that Sunsite has an FTP-Archive with some programs on it. I tested
some with my DOS-emulator (SoftPC) and they worked nicely. But they did not
fit in the european temperate climate. :-( Also they were not that usefull.


Maybe you should not look for specialised pc-software - look for
landscaping-software. I could imagine how it looks. Think of a CAD-Program
with special-landscaping tools and data of growing plants. I saw something
similar as a Windows-CD-ROM (only 10 US-Dollars, I think that can not be a
good software?)


>My use of software is to do mainly with permaculture journal
>production, for community association activities and permaculture in
>schools projects. For that I use Pagemaker 6, Microsoft Word
>(sparingly), Filemaker Pro (database). I think Claris Impact could be

What about a public available Filemaker-data-base. I do not use Filemaker
yet, but I'd like to. If there would be a pc-data-base this would be a very
argument pro Filemaker. BTW: Filemaker now is available for Windows, too.

On the opther hand: So,me work with SGML could do a fine job, too. But I am
not experienced in this, yet.


--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 08:19:12 1996
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:46:03 +0100 (BST)
From: "S.J.Gowland" <afp363@bangor.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afp363@thunder
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Hello Russ Grayson.
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.90.960823121343.22000B-100000@thunder>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Hi Russ,
	At the moment I'm doing an MSc. in Environmental Forestry at
Bangor University, North Wales (UK).  I'm doing my dissertation on
homegardens of tropical areas and forest gardens of temperate regions. To
explain briefly:  Tropical homegardens are an agroforestry practice
whereby an area (of around 0.5 ha) around the house is planted up with
useful (usually multi-purpose) trees, shrubs, herbs and climbers and are
arranged in 3-5 vertical strata in a way that makes optimal use of light
and space.  It's a sustainable, ecologically sound system that provides
fruit, vegetables, medicines, spices, fuel wood, timber and virtually every
thing that subsistence requires.  Staple foods are grown in fields around
the homestead.  Animals are usually part of the system, there are nearly
always poultry of some sort and often goats/cattle etc penned near the
house.  Sounds like permaculture doesn't it? although these have been used
for hundreds if not thousands of years - long before the word permaculture
was created by Bill Mollison!  It's thought that it evolved as a practice
when population pressure got too high to allow a sufficiently long fallow
period in shifting agriculture/bush fallow systems to maintain soil
fertility.  As far as temperate forest gardening goes it's a relatively
new concept, pioneered in Britain by Robert Hart.  Interest is mainly from
the permaculture movement as it's not a system suitable to mechanisation,
although it is flexible to various degrees of commercialisation. 
	So that's what I'm doing upto the end of September.  I really 
need to get my scates on as I've got to write around 20,000 words and do 
a design for a new forest garden which will be made at our University 
farm.  
	What is the focus of your interest in permaculture?  I do like 
getting the e-mails from the mailing list and find it reassuring that 
there are people all over the world with similar views and who are 
actually doing it.
	Best wishes - Sarah (Gowland).

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 09:19:49 1996
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 08:20:52 -0400
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: ex125@mail.vt.edu (Nelson County Office)
Subject: unsubscribe
Status: O
X-Status: 

Please unsubscribe Michael Lachance from the permaculture list.  I do not
know if he is under the ex125@mail.vt.edu address or as mlachance@vt.edu or
mlachance.vtvm1.  Thanks, Joan Anderson
Virginia Cooperative Extension 
Nelson County Office
PO Box 298
Lovingston, VA  22949
(804) 263-4035
fax: (804) 263-4367

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 12:14:46 1996
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 17:18:56 +0200
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
Subject: PC-teacher
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I am searching for a qualified pemaculture-teacher in germany. I mean: Not
any teacher but one who is good in teaching! :-)

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 14:41:07 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: kowens@teleport.com (Jeff Owens)
Subject: Permaculture Design and Action
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:23:44 -0400
Message-ID: <mxR7oS9cpQnH069yn@teleport.com>
In-Reply-To: <199608231220.IAA13888@sable.cc.vt.edu>
Lines: 184
Status: O
X-Status: 

Jeff Owens wrote:
> "Umm, I understood most of what you wrote and agreed, but the part
> about action confused me.  Are you saying we should not act without
> a proven design?  It would seem that action would point out the bad
> designs by their results.  To some extent nature randomly tries
> various combinations until one achieves stability and survives.

> My assumptions have been that Pc is dynamic and changing and our
> role must also be dynamic.  In other words we can not use cook book
> approaches and expect them to work forever or work in a different
> location.  Chaos and change is all around us.  Is this what you were
> saying or do I need to rethink this?"

Dan Hemenway Replies:
The last shall be first. I have no interest, right, duty or prerogative to
indicate what you should think or rethink. My posting was intended as
offering not dictum. I expect your phrase was rhetorical convenience or
perhaps a courteous way to avert confrontation. Fear not--I do not
proselytize, merely offer my viewpoint.

I agree with Dewey about action. That it defines the actor. The word actor
suddenly gives me a way into this. When I was about 20, I lived in a dramatic
theater with the intent of studying playwriting by studying plays being
rehearsed and performed. I imagined (and experienced) no difficulty in
understanding what it took to get a particular set of words in sequence on a
page, but what happened to the words when the actors and director attempted
to blast their several egos through them (I met not one of these people
primarily concerned with dramatic art per se.)--that determined the success
or failure of the play. (This analogy has more potential and more logical
traps than I anticipated when I began. Given AOL's 28K limit on email, I'm
going to stick to my first thoughts)  That theater also sponsored
improvisational productions--people from the audience would posit a basic
situation and actors would be given information about the
situation--different actors different parts and/or different information--and
they would then make it up as they went along. The actors were generally good
and they made up impressive scenes. However, not surprising, nothing held
together as well as the least good of the plays we produced. On the other
hand, playwrites sometimes came to us, posited the information given to
various actors, and let them work it out. This was always helpful, though not
always necessarily as a model for the written script in process.  

The thought out design (playscript) worked better than the improvised scene,
even improvised by people who had intimate experience with
hundreds--sometimes thousands--of written playscripts.

The point is the superiority of the written design in achieving the effect.
This is only of passing financial concern when operating a theater, but can
mean the difference between destruction and healing when we are talking about
making changes in the material world.  In 1968, I moved from NYC to the
country.  I had been involved in the nonviolent resistance to the Vietnam
War, mainly as a photographer photographing police and military brutality
against nonviolent demonstrators. The photography had some restraining
influence, except from time to time when an enforcement guy went beserk with
violence lust.  Anyway, I acquired friends who had taken other roles in the
nonviolent resistance to that war. A few years later, many of them moved to
the country, largely to form communes and be one with nature. What these
people did to the farms that they bought was the most violence against nature
I have ever witnessed in a rural North American setting. (I've been around
the world teaching permaculture, so I have to be careful how I phrase that.)
That their violence was inadvertent, the result of a misguided interpretation
of the cause of "freedom", is irrelevant. Inadvertency is never a defense
against rape. They were trying to break loose from all restraint, including
the restraint of consequences. They didn't intend bad consequences, they
merely insisted that consequences of THEIR actions could not be bad because
their intentions were in their own view good. They really fucked over those
farms, and any suggestion for moderation, no matter how gingerly posed, was a
bit welcome.

The second example is a microcosm of the European invasion of North America.
 Now this is not strictly parallel to your description of a process whereby
we act and gain information therefrom because in your scenario, we intend to
learn from our mistakes.

Permaculture Design has an abhorrence of such mistakes to begin with, unless
they are only made on paper. When people with experience in the material
world (a massage therapist or a blacksmith or whatever) take a mighty effort
to inform themselves, attune to the point where they know they need guidance
from an elder, and immerse all their faculties in the history, current state,
and direction of change of a specific site, then on paper experiment with
changes (experience is necessary to make reasonably accurate estimates of
interactions), then, when the design is the best that they can do, and makes
the minimum changes necessary for desired effects, they may carefully
implement it. Then the feedback loop you described comes into play.

I had a Mohawk man attend a Permaculture Design Course I taught New York
State 10 or more years ago. He told me that white folks never seem to get
their Seventh Generation principle right.  One does indeed look seven
generations into the future to see the consequences of an action/change. One
ALSO looks seven generations into the past, to see what the people have done
about this matter. He went on to explain that this creates a very
conservative behavior.  "One of our great geniuses might have spent his
entire life designing a small change in the shape of a canoe paddle."  We can
agree, I think, that this approach of restraint and seeking the wisdom of
generations served better than what our people are up to now in New York
State. (I mean "our people" culturally, not biologically, for I and perhaps
you too, have genetic ties to these people, rather incidentally to the theme
here. I apologize for the oxymoron of applying the word ":culture" to
western society.)

Ok, restraint. Look at this a simpler way. Conservation is the first
principle of permaculture design.  Restraint is the backbone of conservation.
"Get the most benefit from the least change," is a Mollison maxum, and a damn
good one. (Like the rest of us, his maxims are of uneven quality.) The design
that is worked out as fully as possible is restraint, only small amounts of
paper, very little if we use computers when available, is destroyed. The
results will be imperfect, but the best we can do.  (I believe that our one
absolute responsibility is to always do our best.) In doing our best, we
consult people who know more (via books, the Net, courses, conversation,
etc.) and are wiser and then decide how to design action/change taking full
responsibility.  (The devil--book , teacher, wisewoman, etc.--made me do it
doesn't cut it.)

Now to succession. A fundamental component of permaculture design is the Zone
System. (Photographers, this is not about what Edward Weston proposed--I like
that one too.)  Presumably you have read enough in permaculture to understand
the zone system. (If not, mail $2 and a SASE to me at POB 2052 Ocala FL 34478
USA requesting a reprint of the *Basic Permaculture Article.* or get one of
Mollison's books.) Mollison insists, and again dead center on target, that we
begin our implementation "at our doorsteps," working gingerly out, using the
feedback look you describe. This is very practical, for it gets us started,
holds our attention while we learn to do things better. Mollison is very a
very admirable politician. And we likely will be doing better than we have
been. I've heard from people in the US southwest who have been digging swales
into the landscape helter skelter because Bill said that swales are good.
 BAD, BAD, BAD. Natural selection will get them (and everyone around them.)
Unfortunately, natural selection is too slow for what we can do with
technological tools. The desert, like other places is striving for maximum
life, even if it is a desert of human creation (by agriculture, climate
modification, etc.).  Understand what it is doing already and see how you can
fit in to make things go faster. (If you are really advanced in permaculture,
you can substitute energy for time and end up with more energy sooner because
the system becomes more adept at trapping/storing it quickly. This isn't done
by random swaleing.)

People like my Mohawk friends did a good job, and could use the 7th
Generation principle because they had a culture. They could look seven
generations back--they spent their lives learning culture so that by the time
that they were elders, they knew such things, at least enough of them.  My
Maori friends use a word that sounds like "maouna or manna" to describe an
elder (one with old knowledge, not necessarily biologically old) with
spiritual pizzaz. What is the English word? Right. We don't have a vocabulary
for wisdom.

Permaculture--Permanent Culture--is not a description of what we design, it
describes the vision toward which we design. Permanent is a weak word because
it has no correspondence in reality--the Universe itself is likely
impermanent. However Stabaculture is less catchy. Mollison, being a good
politician, is a brilliant showman and knows a catchy phrase when he hears
it. (There is controversy about who, in Australia, actually coined the
phrase. Between the lines there is a caution in that information.) The Mohawk
word for this concept is probably a translation of Mohawk. Their culture
embodied it. Having failed miserably with the reductionist, scientific,
industrial approach and lost our former cultures (Celtic, Teutonic, old
Slavic, etc.) we of the western society can't look back seven generations and
find the RELEVANT information. We can't look ahead to next week. So we use
one of our tools, writing (on screen or paper doesn't matter), and what we do
have to make a poor substitute for having done things right all along.
Permaculture is vastly inferior to culture, but it is the best that we can do
now, in my opinion. We research the past, plot the future, and record the
process on paper because there will be no elder to tell the next person on
the site what we were thinking and we have no cultural patterning to help us
out.  We 've got to use our most complex material sense, vision, to lay
things out, using overlays, projections, etc. AFTER we have done that, then
we do what you suggest, moderated by Mollison's caution to start at the
doorstep, and become part of a feedback loop.  In seven generations, maybe we
will have a real culture and the word can fall into disuse. However our job
is harder than any people ever faced. We have destroyed much of the tissue of
Mother Earth, imbalanced things like global weather and ocean currents, maybe
the magnetic field, the spectral distribution of light penetrating the
biosphere, etc. We've done more than enough damage so that many of these
tissues will continue degenerative cascading on their own, amplifying one
another in an extremely negative positive feedback loop. Now we need to fix
this, and the best we can do is to start at our doorsteps.
However, if we do our best, we will succeed as people, even if we fail our
intent. Possibly, if we perfect ourselves in this way, we can be more
genuinely powerful than we now imagine.

I'll probably not get back to post this reply. If you think it merits more
widespread attention, will you post it for me? (I don'te even remember where
this discussion began.)

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Elfin Permaculture

We don't have time to rush.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 23 19:51:24 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: unsubscribe
Status: O
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Will the moderator of this group please remove my name from the
mailing list?

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug 24 15:16:46 1996
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Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 12:22:31 -0600
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: simonh@sos.net (Simon Henderson)
Subject: Bamboo People Open hHouse
Status: O
X-Status: 


Friends of Permaculture...

Simon Henderson and his fellows in Bamboo People, Daphne Lewis and Stuart
Brune are hosting an open house at our Bamboo Research Station at Coyote
Ranch near Stanwood, WA, USA Sunday, September 8th, 1996; 10:00a.m. TO
5:30Pp.m. It is our one-year celebration.

Nothing like this has ever been done to this extent. Yes; we stand on the
shoulders of giants. We are giants in that we have put our money where our
ideology and commmittment is. Come see bamboo woven into the web of
agroforestry and vision.

Meet bambusero farmers, musicians, poets and craftspeople

Come feast, work and celebrate with us...It's free...like it should be....

Simon Henderson
30816 3rd Ave. N.E.
Stanwood, WA 98292
Phone:(360) 626-6160
Email: simonh@sos.net
Website: http//www.highway99.com/bamboo

Simon Henderson
Bamboo People


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 25 13:12:40 1996
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Date: 25 Aug 96 12:21:41 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: graphics
Message-ID: <960825162140_75554.631_GHJ33-3@CompuServe.COM>
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Hello, group(s),

	Does anyone know of a way to send diagrams (i.e., fax docs, etc.) through
these mailing lists? Would they be viewable in this environment? I have some
low-tech pump diagrams I wanted to send, don't know how to do it. Thanks, Jack

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Aug 25 14:07:21 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: peace@mind.net (Olafur Brentmar)
Subject: Re: Land-use struggles
Cc: robgil@yesyou.u-net.com (Rob Squires/Gill Ellison)
Status: O
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Dear Tinker Bubblers !

We read with curiosity about your struggles and must share our own
experience,  along the same lines but with a different twist. We are
located in southwestern Oregon, where strict land use laws have been in
effect since 1973. A primary goal of these laws is to save farmland and
increase agricultural production. All development on farmland is
prohibited; even permits for farmhouses are tightly controlled.

Peace Garden Institute (PGI), was incorporated in 1982 with the principle
that diversified organic agricultural and forest land management,
integrated with small-scale cottage industries, will create and sustain a
viable economy while engaging in constructive ecological solutions. Seeing
the demise of the timber industry we were convinced that agriculture with
value-added processing of farm crops would create a stronger and more
sustainable rural economy.

In 1995, our organization, PGI, a non profit school of horticulture &
sustainable living applied for a special use permit to establish a small
residental school.We argued to provide education in the full cycle of
agricultutre (from seed to table to compost to seedling again), both
instructors and apprentices needed to live on the farm. We also requested a
licensed food kitchen to process the food produced on the farm. According
to the local county officials,  the loss of 1/4 acre of farmland for
facilities (dormatories, processing kitchen, library, and class rooms) out
of the total 156 acre farm could not be justified. The agricultural
profitablitiy of our proposed farm/school management plan was ten fold over
current use, and yet we were denied the permit.

In a Kafkian trial, the local land use laws were used as social engineering
tools to legitimize bigotry. Most of the testimony against us revolved
around unfounded fears and suspicions about our connections to a
"counter-culture lifestyle".  After months of hearings with neighbors and
government officials, the application was denied for 17 different reasons,
none of which were valid. 

We appealed the denial and spent three years in court litigation. In August
1995, Oregon Supreme Court ruled in our favor. The high court declared that
establishment of schools and churches are a 'use of right' and not subject
to regulation from local governments.

In an unprecedented move, our local county government has refused to
recognize the Supreme Court ruling. We are left with little option but to
take them to court again. All this litigation is moving at a snails' pace,
and our landlord wants to sell the property. We had intended to purchase
the farm when we leased here 4 years ago, with income generated from the
farm and school. Since we have been hanging in legal limbo, without a
clearance for a permit, grants for the school have been left on hold. 

We now stand to lose the property and are left with only the legal fees.
The last leg of the litigation is about to come to court in the next month
or so.

In many ways, we see sustainable agriculture programs and permaculture as a
natural and constructive backlash to the 'green revolutions' large
industrial approach. The rights of people to live on the land, with the
land and from the land should not be denied. In this country, this idea is
counter to the interests of big agri- business. There is also great public
misconception of the socio-economic benefits of sustainable communal
living. "Communes" here are portrayed as places for religious fanatics,
Communists', vegetarian freaks or Charles Mason murdering-types or more
recently heavily armed militia groups. There is little room for agrarian
communalists in a society so filled with such fears.

Being thus stuck in the web of land use laws and the politics of social
engineering we want to express our support for your endeavor as we seek to
bring constructive sanity to all our lives. We would like to further
collaborate in our common struggle to open the doors of perception so that
other sustainable agricultural projects can sprout and grow without
interference.

Peace is grown
Olafur Brentmar



        -------------------------------------------------------
                        Peace Garden Institute
           School of Horticulture and Sustainable Living
        1380 Hamilton Rd.   Jacksonville, Oregon 97530  USA
phone 541 899 1704;      fax 541 899 3904           peace@mind.net


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 26 10:00:03 1996
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 21:02:18 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: "S.J.Gowland" <afp363@bangor.ac.uk>
CC: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Hello Sarah Gowland!
References: <Pine.OSF.3.90.960823121343.22000B-100000@thunder>
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S.J.Gowland wrote:
> 
> Hi Russ,
>         At the moment I'm doing an MSc. in Environmental Forestry at
> Bangor University, North Wales (UK).  I'm doing my dissertation on
> homegardens of tropical areas and forest gardens of temperate regions.

...Wow! What a resource this will be! How can we obtain a copy?

 To
> explain briefly:  Tropical homegardens are an agroforestry practice
> whereby an area (of around 0.5 ha) around the house is planted up with
> useful (usually multi-purpose) trees, shrubs, herbs and climbers and are
> arranged in 3-5 vertical strata in a way that makes optimal use of light
> and space.  It's a sustainable, ecologically sound system that provides
> fruit, vegetables, medicines, spices, fuel wood, timber and virtually every
> thing that subsistence requires.  Staple foods are grown in fields around
> the homestead.  Animals are usually part of the system, there are nearly
> always poultry of some sort and often goats/cattle etc penned near the
> house. 

...This is an image of traditional Javanese home gardens (Indonesia). 
As well as the above, they incorporate fish culture fed on waste and 
yielding food.

Somewhere, I have an article or two on these gardens which, if you 
need them, I can attempt to locate and post to you. I imagine you 
already have plenty of information on them.

 Sounds like permaculture doesn't it? although these have been used
> for hundreds if not thousands of years - long before the word permaculture
> was created by Bill Mollison! 

...Sure have! Permaculture acknowledges a great debt to traditional 
agriculture. It has drawn heavily on traditional systems and I believe 
that we have only scratched the surface in what we can learn from 
traditional systems. This is where your research becomes so valuable. 
Do you plan to make it available as an information resource?

 It's thought that it evolved as a practice
> when population pressure got too high to allow a sufficiently long fallow
> period in shifting agriculture/bush fallow systems to maintain soil
> fertility. 

...This process continues today. The organisation I work for - APACE 
(Appropriate Technology for Community and Environment) as a project 
manager is presently involved in implementing a development assistance 
project in the Solomon Islands (off NE coast of Papua New Guinea). 

There, our field officer, Tony Jansen, is assisting islanders to learn 
settled agriculture using permaculture as a planning framework and 
methodology. 

With a growing population, fallow periods in the traditional slash and 
burn swidden agriculture have become too short to allow fertility 
recovery. Just as you say.

 As far as temperate forest gardening goes it's a relatively
> new concept, pioneered in Britain by Robert Hart.  Interest is mainly from
> the permaculture movement

...Agroforestry is  of great interest to Australian permaculturists as 
well. The Australian federal and state governments are also 
encouraging it as a form of ecologically sustainable farming which is 
profitable to farmers.

As well, they encourage, through the Farm Forestry scheme via which 
they offer financial assistance, the growing of timber as a crop on 
degraded farm land.

Further to this has been the formation last year of the Subtropical 
Farm Forestry Association which promotes farm forestry and, this year, 
the Australian Rainforest Bushfood Association came into being to 
further the interest of growers, processors and others involved in the 
emerging indigenous bushfoods industry. These are commercial 
applications of tree cropping and agroforestry.

> a design for a new forest garden which will be made at our University

...What an opportunity! I've read a couple of Robert Hart's books (not 
his new book which is not yet available in Australia) and have seen 
his cool temperate forest garden in the UK on Global Gardener. Be 
interested in seeing your design!

In Sydney, we can grow both temperate and subtropical species which 
creates opportunities for interesting tree cropping polycultures.

My interest in permaculture is as a permaculture teacher - I co-teach 
Permaculture Design Courses and introductory courses and teach 
permaculture as a subject in the horticulture course at TAFE 
(technical tertiary education).

My other interests are as a writer/ publisher on permaculture, as 
state co-ordinator of the Australian City Farms, Community Gardens and 
Enterprise Centres Network and for permaculture in schools projects.

Write back if there's anything I can help with and stay in touch about 
your studies.

...keep on greening...

...Russ Grayson

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 26 18:21:42 1996
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Please add me to the list.  Thanks.
-- 
Mike Lijewski                                       mjlijewski@lbl.gov
Center for Computational Sciences and Engineering   phone: 510-486-8667
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory               fax:   510-486-6900

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug 26 22:31:18 1996
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:48:20 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: "S.J.Gowland" <afp363@bangor.ac.uk>
CC: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Hello Sarah Gowland
References: <Pine.OSF.3.90.960823121343.22000B-100000@thunder>
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S.J.Gowland wrote:
> 
> Hi Russ,
>         At the moment I'm doing an MSc. in Environmental Forestry at
> Bangor University, North Wales (UK).  I'm doing my dissertation on
> homegardens of tropical areas and forest gardens of temperate regions.

Wow! What a resource this will be. 

 To
> explain briefly:  Tropical homegardens are an agroforestry practice
> whereby an area (of around 0.5 ha) around the house is planted up with
> useful (usually multi-purpose) trees, shrubs, herbs and climbers and are
> arranged in 3-5 vertical strata in a way that makes optimal use of light
> and space.  It's a sustainable, ecologically sound system that provides
> fruit, vegetables, medicines, spices, fuel wood, timber and virtually every
> thing that subsistence requires.  Staple foods are grown in fields around
> the homestead.  Animals are usually part of the system, there are nearly
> always poultry of some sort and often goats/cattle etc penned near the
> house. 

This is an image of traditional Javanese homegardens. They 
incorporate, in addition, aquaculture. Fish are fed on household waste 
and eventually become food for the household.

Somewhere I have an article or two on this and, if you would like a 
copy, I could sent it by post. You probably already have heaps of 
information on them.

 Sounds like permaculture doesn't it? although these have been used
> for hundreds if not thousands of years - long before the word permaculture
> was created by Bill Mollison! 

Permaculture acknowledges an information debt to traditional 
agriculture. It has drawn heavily upon traditional systems and I 
believe that there is much more to learn. 

This is where your research becomes so valuable. Do you plan to make 
it available for distribution?

 It's thought that it evolved as a practice
> when population pressure got too high to allow a sufficiently long fallow
> period in shifting agriculture/bush fallow systems to maintain soil
> fertility. 

This process continues today.

The organisation I work for, APACE - Appropriate Technology for 
Community and Environment - as a project manager is presently involved 
in the implementation of training for village health and nutrition 
through the development of home gardens and small scale market gardens 
in the Solomon Islands (NE of Papua New Guinea).

Using permaculture as a design and planning tool, our field officer, 
Tony Jansen, is training villagers in settled agriculture because 
their swidden (slash and burn) agriculture has hit the wall of 
increasing population and fallow periods too short to allow sufficient 
fertility recivery. It's just as you say.

 As far as temperate forest gardening goes it's a relatively
> new concept, pioneered in Britain by Robert Hart.  Interest is mainly from
> the permaculture movement

Agroforestry is of great interest to permaculture designers in 
Australia too. 

Fortunately, governments are interested in agroforestry and in the 
growing of commercial timbers on private farm land - farm forestry -  
and make grants to farmers planting tree crops on degraded farm land 
as an income earner and as a means of reversing land degradation. This 
is the Farm Forestry scheme.

In northern NSW the Subtropical Farm Forestry Association was formed 
over a year ago to further the adoption of farm forestry and, more 
recently, the Australian Rainforest Bushfoods Association was formed 
to further the emerging industry in indigenous food crops and the use 
of indigenous species for industrial products such as the extraction 
of aromatic oils. Both these tree cropping systems fit the 
agroforestry model.


>         What is the focus of your interest in permaculture?  

My interest in permaculture is as a co-teacher of permaculture design 
courses, short courses in permaculture and as a teacher of 
permaculture in the TAFE (technical and further education) in the 
horticulture certificate.

I also write about permaculture and publish permaculture related 
material, work with a design team implementing permaculture in schools 
and as NSW co-ordinator of the Australian City Farms, Community 
Gardens and Enterprise Centres Network. Then htere's my work in 
development assistance in the Pacific with APACE...


>         Best wishes - Sarah (Gowland).

Thanks for the communication Sarah. Let's know if there's anything I 
can help with.

Oh, you're temperate forest garden - sounds interesting. Seen the work 
of Robert Hart on video (Global Gardener) and have a couple of his 
books - not his latest which is not yet available in Australia. Would 
love to see your design.

...Russ Grayson

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 27 10:29:55 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 22:50:33 +-1000
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On the whole, I have been really heartened by the depth of 
understanding by most of the respondents
to my search for others with experience of loss of 
peace in the field of permaculture promotion
[Obviously some people have not yet understood that
permaculture is about culture and not a series of gardening
tips - this resulted in some rude messages about my filling
cyberspace with personal dilema's!!!  They have threatened to
leave the mailing list - what luck.]
To the rest of ye who understand the culture that 
Permaculture is forging, who know the joys and challenge of
living closer to nature and to dare to brave the institutions of
present society - I have decided to develop a new structure that
facilitates demonstration and at the same time works with
our own nature as a family.  In the same way we work the natural
energies on a site - I must work with our own nature if the promotion
of permaculture here is to be sustainable.
One letter struck a chord quickly,- I realised that I wish 
to be able to nod hello to those who pass by 
without having to explain the garden, 
I wish that our work was more the norm, and so, without becoming
curt or charging people fees I shall offer open days with my students
running the show.  
I have decided also on Sundays and days of most likely inudation - 
to hide in the back garden - wetlands- 
 which is full of snakes that scare of most people
I shall develop demonstration by books and photos rather than
ongoing face-to-face as this is what I like most anyway.
I shall avoid putting up a sign as this may attract even more visitors
and Ken Yeomans scared me with his experience of regular 
onslaughts of busloads of people.
Up until now I haven't felt that there was much to see
here but as I venture into the realms of permaculture I forget what 
I so recently didn't know - I'm slipping out mainstream.  Not a problem for
me - could be a problem for mainstream!! :>
I know now why Mollison is so cryptic - he's tied of straight out answers.
April
Leisure Coast Permaculture Visions
Mt Kembla Australia
Where's that?  :>

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug 27 17:55:15 1996
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
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Subject: Pergolas..
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       Hi all you Perm listers..
 Wondering if any one has any suggestions for a new planting for a grape
arbor/pergola?  The grape varieties we select will be from local sources to
find those best suited to our climate here in northern New Mexico, US zone
4. Aim to create working guilds with the grapes to create beauty and shade.
Love to hear from your experience!
Vicki Vinca

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 04:11:26 1996
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Date: 28 Aug 96 03:21:07 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Perma+culture
Message-ID: <960828072106_75554.631_GHJ50-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: RO
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Re: personal time and permaculture

	I was sorry to hear that some folks were disappointed to see discussions
over the mailing list(s), initiated by April Sampson-Kelley, which concerned
"personal" or "social" issues as somehow being separate from "permacultural"
issues. From the many positive responses April elicited (I myself was "guilty"
of participating), I trust that this negative reaction was not the rule. On the
other hand I have long been saddened to see "spiritual" issues regularly put
down as not cogent to sustainability. I disgree wholeheartedly. At the root of
our problems as a species with material needs is, sadly, NOT a lack of technical
information or wherewithal; we as a species have been producing this commodity
copiously, to the detriment of our supplies of common sense, kindness, and
equitable socio-economic relationships, for some centuries now. 

	We need sustainable, humane soci-economic and inter-personal structures
as much as we need sustainable practices, and vice-versa. I myself am actively
involved in the technical aspects of sustainability. At the same time, there
just ain' no way the one is going to happen without the other. They are in fact
one thing and not two -- a way of relating to what is outside of ourselves, be
it a planet or a person. Further, as the road to healthy inTER-personal
relationships starts with healthy inTRA-personal relationships, treatment of the
subject of planetary healing as distinct from that of personal healing is simply
not rational or realistic. It is in fact our basic attractions to addictive
behaviors, explicit or implicit, which have lead to our planet's not feeling
safe to turn its back to us, lest we yet once more knock it over its
metaphysical head and rip it off to purchase "drugs" in the form of material
wealth beyond our needs or even rational wants, more to drown our inner unease
than to supply real outer needs (Eric Hoffer -- "You can never really get enough
of what you don't really want"). It's really, really time we begin to consider
work on ourselves and on our planet as one and the same, to acknowledge that if
we don't heal our relationships with the quiet voices within us, a whole lot of
other voices outside us are going to get awfully quiet, for an awfully long
time. What's that saying, "Extinction lasts three weeks"? Hmmm....

	Let's take up one of Mr. Mollison's more oft-ignored admonitions, and go
into the world, and be quiet and OBSERVE, and remember to focus our seeing in
both directions, inward and outward, and see what interesting native beings we
discover, what interestingly-correlative patterns we find repeated in the two
worlds, and maybe when we realize they are in fact one world for each of us,
they will both get a little safer and quieter.  Anonymous the Bolder (aka Jack)

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 10:09:06 1996
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 23:17:18 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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Subject: Celebrating 20 years of Permaculture
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Hi

If any one is in Sydney, Australia on Sunday 1st September, you're 
welcome to join us in celebrating the 20 years of Permaculture - lots 
of interesing people and projects to cathc up with and find out about.

Contact us at the email below

Fiona
-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 13:14:06 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Perma+culture
Status: O
X-Status: 

How could anyone argue with such thinking.  We are in the midst of planetary
crash because language & power & money have unconnected all of our
connections.  Only the deepest of connection whether spiritual economic
interpersonal land based etc will even begin to shift the paradigm &
consequently this vast organism we are a small part of.

Miekal And
http://net22.com/dreamtime/

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 14:18:54 1996
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To: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
Subject: Re: Perma+culture
Status: O
X-Status: 

At 03:21 AM 8/28/96 EDT, jack rowe wrote:
>Re: personal time and permaculture
(...) treatment of the
>subject of planetary healing as distinct from that of personal healing is
simply
>not rational or realistic. 

I've believed that for many years....personal healing = planetary healing
and vice versa.  There is plenty of supporting theory and literature for
this concept, including chaos theory (fractals and the concept of
scalability), and certain schools of metaphysics ("as above, so below").

I don't think that truly healthy humans will willingly contribute to
creating a sick planet.  And I think that unhealthy humans (and I often fall
into this category myself) have a really difficult time creating a healthy
planet, unless they start by healing themselves.

Conversely, I believe that those whose work involves helping humans heal
themselves are doing the planet some good as well.

Just my $0.02, as usual.

Loren
Loren Davidson
loren@wombat.net
http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
make no law".

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 15:07:34 1996
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Message-ID: <32248A22.1165@american.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:04:18 -0400
From: "forbes." <fg4840a@american.edu>
Organization: riceone distro
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: some basic questions
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i am about to start my second year in college at american university 
majoring in a major that has nothing to do with ecology.  anyway, i've 
been reading about permaculture and it all sounds so very interesting.  
however, i'm not even going to be able to come into any land to begin 
working on for at least a couple of years (my dad is moving-he found some 
 cheap land somewhere, and lots of it)
the point is: until then, what can i read/do now?  what should i be 
familiar with before i take a permaculture course?  do i have to use 
animals?  if so, do i have to kill them? (i'm vegetarian, i dont look 
forward to having to kill the animals)
thank you very much for any advice you can provide i appreciate it.  
email me at fg4840a@american.edu
peace forbes
-- 
whole, unrefined food-nourishment for the body
education-nourishment for the mind
meditation-nourishment for the spirit
laughter and love-great for all three!
*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*
X forbes graham           		    nice guyX
X riceone distro				    X
X http://auvm.american.edu/~fg4840a		    X
X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*emoXpower*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Aug 28 15:53:01 1996
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From: Milogic@aol.com
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 14:39:28 -0400
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To: 75554.631@compuserve.com
cc: perma@eepo.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Perma+culture and spirit
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Jack,

After an extended trip to the Philippines and also based on previous time in
so-called Third, Fourth and South worlds; I am ever more convinced that the
planetary crises induced by human behavior are beyond "solutions" on any
level other than spiritual. It looks like the avalanches of desire,
fabricated needs and consumption mania will continue until there is nothing
left. The fortress mentalities which rule the paranoic lives of the wealthy
mean armed guards at every door and bodyguard platoons as status symbols. 

I am delighted that here and there little sparks come up now and then: the
growth of cooperatives in the Philippines is an example. Permaculture
villages (real and virtual), these List Servs, the emerging communications
vehicles of internet and web sites, to my mind, are very positive channels. 

Permaculture itself is in controvention to Genesis. Until Genesis is
repealed, superceded, consigned to historical curiosity; I don't really see
any longer term hope among Christians (and Jews and probably
Islamacists)--the monotheists who look to the cultural creations of the
mid-east from Zoroaster forward (sorry all you wonderful Jains among the
readers of this service) which assert human domination over planet and
species--in theory or in practice.

I see April as having raised important issues which have stimulated
discussion. I see discussion as a critical element in permaculture. Dan
Hemenway's recent postings about design/planning/implementation and actions
defining actors stand out. 

More discussion and more inclusion of spiritual dimensions--without
prosyletizing--suits me just fine. I don't care what religions or spiritual
traditions one might access, I do care that they incorporate a visceral
knowledge of our inter-relationships with all sentience.

Milo Clark

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 10:44:05 1996
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: MD/DC/VA area permaculture design course
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October 4-20, 1996
Permaculture Design course

taught by Dawn Shiner
contact Dawn at: (814) 425 8210

(I've personally taken this course -- I highly recommend it.
    -- Linda Felch lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu)

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:18:50 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Milogic@aol.com'" <Milogic@aol.com>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'"
	 <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Mollison and animal guilds
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 10:28:55 +-1000
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I think paul - my partner I was a teenager, would call me - a fiery mix
of all seasons!!!

I found Mollison exactly what I expected - most people tread very gingerly
around the edges with him, but I didn't.
All the women were throwing themselves at him, I said to him I didn't
think that being a guru would be much fun for a female and he said - April
we could find you losts of beautiful black men - 
the fact is the guy loves to shock people - and yes I must admit that did
shock me - that one.

I asked mollison about animal guilds - because I am fairly familiar with plant
guilds and plant-animal relationships,
he told a story [his parable I guess]  about how he was cutting up about 30
tiger snakes in the laboratory of the main research body here in Australia CSIRO -
he found an enormous tape worm wound through the gut, around ribs, the full
length of this snake,  so he carefull cut it out, coiled it up and picked it up
to show his supervisor, as he was walking along the worm seemed to be getting
shorter, as he got to the supervisor his hand was empty.
His supervisor didn't believe Mollison and so as he too was cutting a snake
he found a tape worm, cut it out and decided to ask Mollison if this was the one
he had found.  He too carried it to the next room and they both tried to grab it from 
slipping into the supervisors palm - to no avail, they watched the end go through the skin
after the rest of it.
I think the women that had been throwing themselves at him earlier, felt a little uneasy.


----------
From: 	Milogic@aol.com[SMTP:Milogic@aol.com]
Sent: 	Thursday, 29 August 1996 3:59
To: 	askpv@ozemail.com.au
Subject: 	Now four Ps

Mollison cryptic? Hmmm, I've heard him called all sorts of names. Now I shall
need to ponder "cryptic," in reference to this paradoxical gentleman.

Up in these parts of the planet, April is springtime so I have a vast panoply
of wonderful associations with April--which, I realize, is autumn in your
world. I guess I would hold for your dilemma as opening more than closing
your creations.

Milo



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:18:53 1996
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Message-ID: <3224DBC1.668E@magna.com.au>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 09:52:33 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: "forbes." <fg4840a@american.edu>
CC: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: some basic questions
References: <32248A22.1165@american.edu>
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forbes. wrote:
> 
> i am about to start my second year in college at american university
> majoring in a major that has nothing to do with ecology.  anyway, i've
> been reading about permaculture and it all sounds so very interesting.
> however, i'm not even going to be able to come into any land to begin

Hi forbes,

You do not need to own land to practice permaculture.

Permaculture is a system of integrated design, not a system of 
farming. As a design system, permaculture can incorporate the 
ecologically sustainable farming system preferred by the farmer, 
whether that be organic, biodynamic or some other variant of low 
external input sustainable agriculture.

You do not even have to have an interest in gardening of growing food 
to practice permaculture. What you have to do is to take 
responsibility for the effects of your way of life. This includes 
water and energy conservation, reducing the environmental impact of 
your way of life, reducing overconsumption of frivilous and 
unnecessary products, reducing your output of wastes and reusing and 
recycling your unwanted outputs.

Regarding food, while you do not have to produce it yourself to 
practice permaculture you can accept responsibility for your eating by 
endeavouring to buy your food from retailers, food co-ops or community 
supported agriculture enterprises which distribute food which has been 
produced with regard to ecological sustainability, landcare and social 
justice. 

Nobody is asking for you to become obsessive about this - just do the 
best you can with what is available where you live. None of us are 
perfect, we could simply try to do do things a little better than they 
are done at present.

> working on for at least a couple of years (my dad is moving-he found some
>  cheap land somewhere, and lots of it)
> the point is: until then, what can i read/do now? 

What can you read?

Try Bill Mollison's Introduction to Permaculture for starters. That 
will give you a broad introduction to permaculture. 

Then get a book catalog from the US based Permaculture Activist (PO 
Box 1209, Black Mountain NC 28711), read the Permaculture 
International Journal (get it from Permaculture Activist), 
Permaculture Drylands Journal (PO Box 64184, Tuscon, AZ 85728). Do a 
WWW search under 'permaculture' to discover permaculture websites and 
do a permaculture design course.

 what should i be
> familiar with before i take a permaculture course? 

Reading Introduction to Permaculture will provide basic background.

 do i have to use
> animals?  if so, do i have to kill them? (i'm vegetarian, i dont look

Animals are used in permaculture design as integral parts of the 
system. Chooks (I think you call them chickens over there) are used 
for their practice of scratching up and manuring soil in preparation 
for sowing vegetables and for their habit of eating insect larvae, for 
example. Geese eat weeds in orchards. Goats clear invasive weeds.

In cases such as urban gardens, however, there may be no opportunity 
to utilise animals for their beneficial functions within your system. 
In that case, you have to substitute your labour for that otherwise 
done by animals. ie you have to scratch up the ground and fertilise it 
in preparation for vegetable sowing.

No, if you do have animals you do not have to kill them. There are 
plenty of vegetarian permaculturists, including those who eat animal 
products such as eggs and those who do not. If you wish, you can trade 
products like eggs on local exchange and trading systems (community 
economic systems) or sell them - that way you are supplying people who 
do use such products with stuff that has been responsibly and 
organically produced by you and by animals which are humanely kept.

Permaculture does not stipulate vegetarianism ot omnivorism - what it 
does stipulate is that, if people keep animals for food then they are 
kept humanely.


> forward to having to kill the animals)
> thank you very much for any advice you can provide i appreciate it.
> email me at fg4840a@american.edu
> peace forbes
> --
> whole, unrefined food-nourishment for the body
> education-nourishment for the mind
> meditation-nourishment for the spirit
> laughter and love-great for all three!
> *X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*
> X forbes graham                             nice guyX
> X riceone distro                                    X
> X http://auvm.american.edu/~fg4840a                 X
> X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*emoXpower*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X*X

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:18:49 1996
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Date: 29 Aug 96 01:56:43 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Gr. "ecos", the hearth
Message-ID: <960829055643_75554.631_GHJ35-7@CompuServe.COM>
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"a major that has nothing to do with ecology"... don't you believe it, forbes!!

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:18:51 1996
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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 11:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
Message-Id: <199608281854.LAA17923@igc2.igc.apc.org>
From: David Fuller <sol3az@igc.apc.org>
To: 75554.631@compuserve.com, perma@eepo.com.au
Subject: Re:  Perma+culture
Cc: dfuller@juno.com, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Status: O
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Absolutely agree with you.  The balance between Slow Knowledge and Fast 
Knowledge is at the heart of much of what we are struggling with as a 
species.  I found an excellent article in the April (I think) issue of 
Conservation Biology, by David Orr that addresses these issues.

Whether we refer to certain classes of information as "spiritual" or "wisdom"
or apply any other label, it matters less than the recognition of a 
particular kind of synthesis that is occurring.  Our own personal kind 
of mental composting, I guess!  A non-cognitive form of processing is 
resident within us, and becomes particularly potent when coupled with 
critical thinking.  These faculties, whatever we choose to label them 
are to be celebrated, not pinned to the dissecting board.  Things have 
a way of disintegrating when that happens.

Warmest regards, Dave Fuller.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 14:50:20 1996
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From: Linda Felch <lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: MD VA PA permaculture design course
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960829140343.8118A-100000@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
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October 4-20, 1996
Permaculture Design course

taught by Dawn Shiner
contact Dawn at: (814) 425 8210

(I've personally taken this course -- I highly recommend it.
    -- Linda Felch lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu)


Linda Felch
lfelch@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu
Baltimore, MD

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Aug 29 15:42:04 1996
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From: Michael C Stanfield <cumcs@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
Subject: unsubscribe
To: DreamtimeV@aol.com
cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
In-Reply-To: <960828121002_189576363@emout18.mail.aol.com>
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please remove my name from the list.
unsubscribe.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Aug 30 15:51:15 1996
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From: wlande@rodaleinst.org (William Landesman)
To: "'permaculture-mg@ces.ncsu.edu'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Permaculture Workshop at Rodale Institute
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 15:31:50 -0400
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For Immediate Release						August 30, 1996

Contact:  Karle Maurer, 610-683-1424





Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and=20
Pond Building Workshop

Instructors From Arizona and Austrailia Will Lead Three-Day Seminar


KUTZTOWN, PA:  Rodale Institute will hold a three-day workshop on swale =
and pond building at its 333-acre Experimental Farm October 17 - 19.  =
The course will be taught by permaculture instructors Scott Pittman of =
Arizona and Doug Dorrough of Austrailia.

Permaculture means "permanence in agriculture," and succeeds in all =
climates by capturing and managing water that is otherwise lost.  =
Recently, permaculture concepts have been successfully applied to =
residential landscapes as well.

Farmers, landscape designers and contractors, architects, municipal and =
civic engineers, and homeowners are invited to learn how to conserve and =
use water, in a hands-on workshop that will include direct experience =
recontouring the Rodale Institute Experimental Farm for better water =
use.  New holding ponds and swales (trenches that route rainwater to =
where it is needed) will be laid out and constructed during the session.

"Most swales today are designed to take water away," explains Anthony =
Rodale, Vice Chair of the non-profit Rodale Institute and the force =
behind the workshop.  "But eventually, the farmer or homeowner is going =
to want that water back in a dry time.  Permaculture designs hold and =
use water as many times as possible before it passes out of the =
property."

The October workshop is a follow-on to the 14-day comprehensive =
permaculture design workshop which Rodale Institute hosted last April.  =
Water management is the first and most important step to permaculture.  =
Other aspects of permaculture, such as soil improvement, plant =
selection, aquaculture, and reforesting, are among the plans for future =
workshops in the series.

"If this is your first exposure to permaculture, it's a great way to =
start," offers Rodale.  "If you get really excited about it, there will =
be many more opportunities to get involved." =20

Permaculture workshops are offered throughout the world by certified =
instructors from the Permaculture Institute, such as Pittman and =
Dorrough.

The Rodale Institute works with people worldwide to achieve regenerative =
food systems that renew environmental and human health.

Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop =
October 17 - 19.  All meals are included in the three-day admission =
charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited. =
 Please call Rodale Institute at 610-683-1424 for information and =
reservations.


Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.

#  #  #

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug 31 00:20:55 1996
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 13:25:18 -0700
From: jclement <jclement@albury.net.au>
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Dear Sir/Madam,
               Recently I have become interested in permaculture and would 
love to set up a garden. However I have found it difficult to gather 
information. I would appreciate it if you could send me any information or 
give me some names of places or books where I could find some information.
    Thankyou,
   Erika Brosig
   831 Burrows St
   Albury NSW 2640
   Australia.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug 31 09:15:24 1996
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From: UrbanHarve@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:28:43 -0400
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To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Pergolas..
Status: O
X-Status: 

We have a demonstration/teaching garden at our office site in the Old Sixth
Ward of Houston. Last summer, some resident artists at the host agency (MECA)
in the building where we lease designed and built a grape arbor for our
garden. It was designed and built by participation from a fairly large number
of neighborhood youth. They built concrete posts with metal bar roof. The
floor was made of cast pavers with artifacts from the neighborhood in the
stone. These included kids hand and foot prints, bottle caps, and pictures of
the old neigborhood and individuals living on the street.

You can make something nine if get local talent involved, find some money,
and use the community!

Bob Randall for Urban Harvest

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug 31 09:43:45 1996
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From: UrbanHarve@aol.com
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Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 08:04:32 -0400
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To: s100962@student.uq.edu.au, permaext@magna.com.au
cc: askpv@ozemail.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: REintroduction
Status: O
X-Status: 

One policy issue that interests me is the construction of locally appropriate
manuals and information collections for sustainable food production. Here in
Metro Houston, we have a growing library of gardening books and information,
a seed bank, a quarterly 16 page newsletter, a number of pamphlets and three
books/booklets we have written (my general book Year Round Vegetables, Fruits
and Flowers for Metro-Houston, a Natural Organic Approach using Ecology; How
to Grow Tomatoes in Metro Houston; and Mark Cotham's The Urban Harvest Guide
to School and Youth Gardening.  

These differ from what would otherwise be available in that they focus
particularly on what works in Houston adapted to local ecological conditions.
Due to publishing economics, most commercial materials focus on megamarkets
such as the Southern United States, and create materials that rapidly go out
of date unless they stay away from quickly outdated material (such as the
location of supplies). We publish in much smaller numbers, and update very
frequently.

What I wonder is, how do others deal with this problem-- locally appropriate
information distribution-- and what is the theory/are the principles
underlying this activity?

Bob Randall for Urban Harvest

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug 31 13:19:47 1996
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From: DreamtimeV@aol.com
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To: UrbanHarve@aol.com, s100962@student.uq.edu.au, permaext@magna.com.au
cc: askpv@ozemail.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: REintroduction
Status: O
X-Status: 

<These differ from what would otherwise be available in that they focus
particularly on what works in Houston adapted to local ecological conditions.
Due to publishing economics, most commercial materials focus on megamarkets
such as the Southern United States, and create materials that rapidly go out
of date unless they stay away from quickly outdated material (such as the
location of supplies). We publish in much smaller numbers, and update very
frequently.

This is the beauty of the web is that your research & information can be
accessed by however many need that info & you dont have to worry about
printing books & distribution & how are people gonna run into your things.  &
especially with the notion of keeping current updates available there is no
other publishing medium that is so easy to keep up to date if you have a few
computer nerds around.

Miekal And
http://net22.com/dreamtime/

Dreamtime Village
hypermedia/permaculture/new culture

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  2 12:29:42 1996
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Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 21:20:21 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: UrbanHarve@aol.com
CC: s100962@student.uq.edu.au, askpv@ozemail.com.au,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: REintroduction
References: <960831080432_398241542@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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UrbanHarve@aol.com wrote:
> 
> One policy issue that interests me is the construction of locally appropriate
> manuals and information collections for sustainable food production. Here in
> Metro Houston, we have a growing library of gardening books and information,
> a seed bank, a quarterly 16 page newsletter, a number of pamphlets and three
> books/booklets we have written (my general book Year Round Vegetables, Fruits
> and Flowers for Metro-Houston, a Natural Organic Approach using Ecology; How
> to Grow Tomatoes in Metro Houston; and Mark Cotham's The Urban Harvest Guide
> to School and Youth Gardening.
> 
> These differ from what would otherwise be available in that they focus
> particularly on what works in Houston adapted to local ecological conditions.
> Due to publishing economics, most commercial materials focus on megamarkets
> such as the Southern United States, and create materials that rapidly go out
> of date unless they stay away from quickly outdated material (such as the
> location of supplies). We publish in much smaller numbers, and update very
> frequently.
> 
> What I wonder is, how do others deal with this problem-- locally appropriate
> information distribution--

The WWW offers an avenue if you have a home page. Then you don't have 
the expense and work of publishing.

Problem is, most people - at least in Austraila - don't have access to 
WWW or email even though the use of these media is growing fast. So, 
the most accessible form of communication of locally relevant 
information remains printed media in its various forms.

Until recently we published a permaculture journal for the Sydney 
bioregion which carried useful, locally relevant information. This was 
a successful media for the transmission of information.

We have found that printed matter is an accessible media for passing 
on information in the Solomon Islands where we are involved in a 
village agriculture project.

There, access to the internet is virtually zero - it is largely a 
media restricted to people in affluent nations and of only marginal 
accessibility to people in developing countries (ie four-fifths of 
humanity). There's not only the issue of access in countries with poor 
telecommunications facilities, there's the big issue of affordability 
and skills. 

One media which has proven useful there is video. This gets around the 
problem of illiteracy and there is often a video machine in many of 
the villages and, of course, video's are portable.

I guess the strategy for maximun information penetration is to 
simultaneously publish both in print and on the web.

I would be interested in finding out what you people at Urban Harvest 
do and how you do it. Are you into urban agriculture? Urban 
agriculture - in the form of community gardens and community supported 
agriculture - is fairly new in Australia. In Sydney, we're involved in 
a couple community gardens and train people in relevant skills and 
assist with design.

We're also contacts for a community garden/ city farm network covering 
most of the country. So, we're eager to learn what other groups are 
doing.

Thanks...

...Russ Grayson


-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  2 12:34:28 1996
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unsubscribe permaculture-mg

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  2 12:34:27 1996
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From: "Peter Austin" <paustin@wasp.cs.cowan.edu.au>
Organization: Edith Cowan University
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:50:00 +0800
Subject: IPC6 Mail List
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Announcement
------------

A mailing list has been set up to provide updates on events occurring
at the Sixth International Permaculture Conference. It is directed at
those unable to attend.

This list is moderated, ie. all messages sent to the list are first
approved by the list owner (Peter Austin <p.austin@cowan.edu.au>)
prior to being sent out to the list members.

The list will close on 31st October 1996.

To subscribe send email to:

    majordomo@listserver.cowan.edu.au

with the following lines in the body (the subject line is ignored)

    subscribe ipc6
    end




--------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Austin
Manager, Microcomputer & LAN Support
Edith Cowan University
Pearson Street
Churchlands WA 6018
AUSTRALIA
Email: p.austin@cowan.edu.au
Ph:    +61-9-2738268
Fax:   +61-9-2738000

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  2 22:11:33 1996
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Message-ID: <960902213311_399822873@emout08.mail.aol.com>
To: UrbanHarve@aol.com, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Pergolas..
Status: O
X-Status: 

We published an illustrated description for hardi kiwi (Actinidia arguta) in
our TIPSY (The International Permaculture Species Yearbook) #4.  It is
available for $$18 postpaid worldwide from us (only). A pergola system for
actinida will serve any vine crop, since actinidia is the heaviest bearing of
any known crop per unit leaf area, according to Mollison.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and The Forest Ecosystem
Food Network.

If its not in your food chain, you're not thinking.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep  3 00:48:36 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Response to Pergolas
Status: O
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Thanks to all who responded to my inquiry re: pergola planting with grapes.
I haven't received much information that suggests guilds but have found that
grapes do well with chives, hyssop, blackberry(?) and legumes.  I hope to
experiment with climbing roses, hops, hardy kiwi and wisteria.  Do you think
any of these would be too competetive with the grapes?
Vicki

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep  3 17:26:30 1996
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From: rharin@rodaleinst.org (Rebecca Haring)
Organization: Rodale Institute
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To: almanac@esuja.gov, biolab@hubcap.clemson.edu, biologia@mit.edu,
        bioregional@csf.colorado.edu, compost@listproc.wsu.edu,
        csa-l@prairienet.org, devel-l@listserv.american.edu,
        ecolog-l@umdd.umd.edu, ecologia@mit.edu, et-w4@searn.sunet.se,
        gaia-l@listserv.aol.com, gardens@ukcc.uky.edu, graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz,
        herb@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr, unu.zeri.ibs@caren.net,
        ipm-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, mulch-l@cornell.edu,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, renew-energy@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        siecer@Virginia.edu, sustag-puboic@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        vegetation@lists.colorado.edu
Subject: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute
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For Immediate Release					September 3 1996

Contact:  Karle Maurer, 610-683-1424


Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and 
Pond Building Workshop

Instructors From Arizona and Austrailia Will Lead Three-Day Seminar


KUTZTOWN, PA:  Rodale Institute will hold a three-day workshop on swale 
and pond building at its 333-acre Experimental Farm October 17 - 19.  The 
course will be taught by permaculture instructors Scott Pittman of 
Arizona and Doug Dorrough of Austrailia.

Permaculture means "permanence in agriculture," and succeeds in all 
climates by capturing and managing water that is otherwise lost.  
Recently, permaculture concepts have been successfully applied to 
residential landscapes as well.

Farmers, landscape designers and contractors, architects, municipal and 
civic engineers, and homeowners are invited to learn how to conserve and 
use water, in a hands-on workshop that will include direct experience 
recontouring the Rodale Institute Experimental Farm for better water use. 
 New holding ponds and swales (trenches that route rainwater to where it 
is needed) will be laid out and constructed during the session.

"Most swales today are designed to take water away," explains Anthony 
Rodale, Vice Chair of the non-profit Rodale Institute and the force 
behind the workshop.  "But eventually, the farmer or homeowner is going 
to want that water back in a dry time.  Permaculture designs hold and use 
water as many times as possible before it passes out of the property."

The October workshop is a follow-on to the 14-day comprehensive 
permaculture design workshop which Rodale Institute hosted last April.  
Water management is the first and most important step to permaculture.  
Other aspects of permaculture, such as soil improvement, plant selection, 
aquaculture, and reforesting, are among the plans for future workshops in 
the series.

"If this is your first exposure to permaculture, it's a great way to 
start," offers Rodale.  "If you get really excited about it, there will 
be many more opportunities to get involved."  

Permaculture workshops are offered throughout the world by certified 
instructors from the Permaculture Institute, such as Pittman and 
Dorrough.

The Rodale Institute works with people worldwide to achieve regenerative 
food systems that renew environmental and human health.

Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop 
October 17 - 19.  All meals are included in the three-day admission 
charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited. 
 Please call Rodale Institute at 610-683-1424 for information and 
reservations.


Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.

#  #  #

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep  3 20:13:35 1996
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To: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Response to Pergolas
Status: O
X-Status: 

I have had a lot of success in Houston growing upright blackberries tied to
poles with grapes on wires between poles. The grpes that work well with this
are Southern Hybrid Muscadines since they leaf out very late and thus shade
the blackberries after they have born fruit. Under the blackberries, shade
loving herbs work well in this hot climate.  bob randall for urban harvest

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep  3 22:59:15 1996
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From: Runs With Scissors <gozer@oro.net>
Message-Id: <199609040106.SAA13262@oro.net>
Subject: Re: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute
To: compost@listproc.wsu.edu, rharin@rodaleinst.org
Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 18:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: almanac@esuja.gov, biolab@hubcap.clemson.edu, biologia@mit.edu,
        bioregional@csf.colorado.edu, csa-l@prairienet.org,
        devel-l@listserv.american.edu, ecolog-l@umdd.umd.edu, ecologia@mit.edu,
        et-w4@searn.sunet.se, gaia-l@listserv.aol.com, gardens@ukcc.uky.edu,
        graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz, herb@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr,
        unu.zeri.ibs@caren.net, ipm-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, mulch-l@cornell.edu,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, renew-energy@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        siecer@Virginia.edu, sustag-puboic@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        vegetation@lists.colorado.edu
In-Reply-To: <322CAC69.2B80@rodaleinst.org> from "Rebecca Haring" at Sep 3, 96 03:08:41 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: O
X-Status: 

Tabloid reporters were flabbergasted when Rebecca Haring wrote:
 
> Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and
> Pond Building Workshop

> Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop
> October xx-xx.  All meals are included in the three-day admission
> charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited.
>  Please call Rodale Institute at xxx-xxx-xxxx for information and
> reservations.

While admirable, this is off-topic for the compost list.
Additionally, internet email is an inappropriate forum
for unsolicited advertising.

Please refrain from emailing unsolicited advertising in the
future.

> Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
> under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.

I still don't want to see your advertising. 

Sincerely,

gozer@oro.net

-- 
Floatmeal: the missing bits of precision in a Pentium FDIV operation.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 00:42:59 1996
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Reply-To: victor.guest@eepo.com.au
From: vic@daena.eepo.com.au (Victor Guest)
Message-ID: <322cee6c.daena@daena.eepo.com.au>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Perma+culture and spirit (fwd) (fwd)
Status: RO
X-Status: 


ORIGINALLY From Milogic@aol.com Mon, 02 Sep 1996 23:47:59 WST remote from eepo
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To: 75554.631@compuserve.com
cc: perma@eepo.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Perma+culture and spirit

Jack,

After an extended trip to the Philippines and also based on previous time in
so-called Third, Fourth and South worlds; I am ever more convinced that the
planetary crises induced by human behavior are beyond "solutions" on any
level other than spiritual. It looks like the avalanches of desire,
fabricated needs and consumption mania will continue until there is nothing
left. The fortress mentalities which rule the paranoic lives of the wealthy
mean armed guards at every door and bodyguard platoons as status symbols. 

* Give away your worldly goods and follow me* Christ/ Vic

I am delighted that here and there little sparks come up now and then: the
growth of cooperatives in the Philippines is an example. Permaculture
villages (real and virtual), these List Servs, the emerging communications
vehicles of internet and web sites, to my mind, are very positive channels. 

Permaculture itself is in controvention to Genesis. Until Genesis is
repealed, superceded, consigned to historical curiosity; I don't really see
any longer term hope among Christians (and Jews and probably
Islamacists)--the monotheists who look to the cultural creations of the
mid-east from Zoroaster forward (sorry all you wonderful Jains among the
readers of this service) which assert human domination over planet and
species--in theory or in practice.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you manipulate Dominion to mean exploitation then Genisis is the problem.



If Christians go back to "Love the lord thy god with all thy heart, soul 
and strength and mind and love thy neighbor as thy self. See God as where
and what, and with which,they live then Genesis was contradicted by Christ 
himself. Or as I beleive is the case! In the beginning was the "Word"
and we still manipulate it to let us do what ever we want to. Then we use it
to manipulate the people around us either positively or negatively.

The capitalist system is built on a slavery model which if you look at 
christs stuff is in contradiction. So whats new about Genesis.

Capitalists have taken over some of the best Co-op's in WA as well, they 
then proceed to strip the positive/profitable and leave the negative/service
parts and get "christians" to support their enterprise.

People have used Christianity as a vehicle for some of the most horrendous
crimes. The Spanish Inquisition is the classic.

Our recent WA.Inc. and coruption trials are mostly people who are hiding 
behind a christian facade, with in some cases the POPE to back up/authenticate
their lies/crimes.

Holistic Resource Management is a tool to challenge some of their 
enviromental crimes. We now have an Australian, New zealand Society of 
Enviromental Economics as well.

Currently I am Secretary to the West Australian Society for Co-operation.
We have a recognition of the spiritual part of all of us.
Permaculture. HRM, Land Management Society, Re-valuation Co-counselling,
Landmark Forum are all groups of people all going in the same direction.
Dare I include Womens Liberation (Which if we only can see it is the 
liberation of men as well)

Viva La Permaculture.

vic.guest@eepo.com.au 
_________________________________________________________________________

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 13:29:39 1996
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Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:57:48 -0700
From: Carol Brown <CarolB@cted.wa.gov>
To: compost@listproc.wsu.edu, gozer@oro.net, rharin@rodaleinst.org
Cc: unu.zeri.ibs@caren.net, ipm-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, renew-energy@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        sustag-puboic@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, mulch-l@cornell.edu,
        bioregional@csf.colorado.edu, almanac@esuja.gov,
        biolab@hubcap.clemson.edu, vegetation@lists.colorado.edu,
        devel-l@listserv.american.edu, gaia-l@listserv.aol.com,
        biologia@mit.edu, ecologia@mit.edu, csa-l@prairienet.org,
        et-w4@searn.sunet.se, graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz, herb@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr,
        gardens@UKCC.UKY.EDU, ecolog-l@umdd.umd.edu, siecer@Virginia.edu
Subject:  Re: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale 
  
	       Institute -Reply
Status: O
X-Status: 

Response to Runs With Scissors- Swale construction IS an appropriate
topic for a compost list.  The Clean Washington Center and E & A
Environmental Consultants in Seattle, WA are in the middle of study
looking at the use of compost in bioswales and the preliminary results
look very promising!! These kinds of workshops and opportunities to
share research focus and information is the reason I stay on this list- not
to read about individual problems with how to construct worm bins and
whether grass is a "greeen or a brown"!!!

Let's be a bit more open to sharing and learning.....

>>> Runs With Scissors <gozer@oro.net> 09/03/96 06:06pm >>>
Tabloid reporters were flabbergasted when Rebecca Haring wrote:
  > Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and
> Pond Building Workshop

> Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop
> October xx-xx.  All meals are included in the three-day admission
> charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited.
>  Please call Rodale Institute at xxx-xxx-xxxx for information and
> reservations.

While admirable, this is off-topic for the compost list.
Additionally, internet email is an inappropriate forum for unsolicited
advertising.

Please refrain from emailing unsolicited advertising in the future.

> Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
> under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.

I still don't want to see your advertising. 

Sincerely,

gozer@oro.net

--  Floatmeal: the missing bits of precision in a Pentium FDIV operation.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 16:22:07 1996
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Date: 04 Sep 96 15:03:33 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Design courses
Message-ID: <960904190332_75554.631_GHJ52-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi folks,

	I'm looking into design courses for a friend, does anyone have any
favorite courses or teachers?  What about Libbie Fox at the Eco-Village Training
Center in Tennessee? (my friend is a woman, and would like to take the course
from a woman if possible). I know this course is coming up. Any suggestions or
comments abut this or other courses from anyone? Is it polite or appropriate to
ask this? If so, please mail me at 75554.631@compuserve.com, thanks, Jack Rowe.

P.S...	Also, thanks to everyone for the input on sending graphics on e-mail.
Apparently "uu-encoding" is the most universally-practical method, and shareware
encoder-decoders are easily found on the 'net. Someday I'll try to send some
diagrams, I've got too many irons in the fire, some of them are getting pretty
hot,  Jack.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 18:07:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:10:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Larry Daley <daleyl@ava.BCC.ORST.EDU>
To: Carol Brown <CarolB@cted.wa.gov>
Cc: compost@listproc.wsu.edu, gozer@oro.net, rharin@rodaleinst.org,
        unu.zeri.ibs@caren.net, ipm-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, renew-energy@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        sustag-puboic@amani.ces.ncsu.edu, mulch-l@cornell.edu,
        bioregional@csf.colorado.edu, almanac@esuja.gov,
        biolab@hubcap.clemson.edu, vegetation@lists.colorado.edu,
        devel-l@listserv.american.edu, gaia-l@listserv.aol.com,
        biologia@mit.edu, ecologia@mit.edu, csa-l@prairienet.org,
        et-w4@searn.sunet.se, graze-l@taranaki.ac.nz, herb@trearnpc.ege.edu.tr,
        gardens@ukcc.uky.edu, ecolog-l@umdd.umd.edu, siecer@Virginia.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute -Reply
In-Reply-To: <s22d52af.050@cted.wa.gov>
Message-Id: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960904130751.26170E-100000@ava.bcc.orst.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

Carol:

For what its worth, if you are a non-profit organization, i don't see 
anything wrong with telling us about your meeting.


But then what does an old plant biochemist know?

Larry Daley

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Carol Brown wrote:

> Response to Runs With Scissors- Swale construction IS an appropriate
> topic for a compost list.  The Clean Washington Center and E & A
> Environmental Consultants in Seattle, WA are in the middle of study
> looking at the use of compost in bioswales and the preliminary results
> look very promising!! These kinds of workshops and opportunities to
> share research focus and information is the reason I stay on this list- not
> to read about individual problems with how to construct worm bins and
> whether grass is a "greeen or a brown"!!!
> 
> Let's be a bit more open to sharing and learning.....
> 
> >>> Runs With Scissors <gozer@oro.net> 09/03/96 06:06pm >>>
> Tabloid reporters were flabbergasted when Rebecca Haring wrote:
>   > Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and
> > Pond Building Workshop
> 
> > Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop
> > October xx-xx.  All meals are included in the three-day admission
> > charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited.
> >  Please call Rodale Institute at xxx-xxx-xxxx for information and
> > reservations.
> 
> While admirable, this is off-topic for the compost list.
> Additionally, internet email is an inappropriate forum for unsolicited
> advertising.
> 
> Please refrain from emailing unsolicited advertising in the future.
> 
> > Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
> > under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.
> 
> I still don't want to see your advertising. 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> gozer@oro.net
> 
> --  Floatmeal: the missing bits of precision in a Pentium FDIV operation.
> 
> 
> 

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 20:25:02 1996
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Message-Id: <m0uyQNH-0007nBC@ncatfyv.uark.edu>
From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: Desert Legumes database 
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:24:42 -0500 (CDT)
Content-Type: text
Status: O
X-Status: 


=============================================================
   * Announcing a Resource for Arid Lands Permaculture *  

=============================================================

ARIDUS is the Quarterly Bulletin of The Desert Legume Program of 
The Boyce Thompson Southwestern Arboretum and The University of 
Arizona.  It features a different genus of plants each
issue, with botanical notes and references listed.  The
August 1996 issue (Vol. 8, No. 3) contains a review of the
genus Cercidium, which is closely related to Parkinsonia.  

The Desert Legume Program Index Seminum and list of seed
bank holdings is now available through DELEP.  In order to 
save on printing costs, the Index Seminum is available on 
on 3.5 inch diskettes for $5.00.  The file is in WordPerfect
5.1 formatted in DOS version 4.0.

Each accession is listed alphabetically by genus, species,
and accession number with the availability code and origin.
Seed samples are distributed free.  

For individuals without computer access, a printout is
available, also for $5.00.  It will one day be available on
a Web site. 

To order, send your name and address with $5.00 to:  

DELEP/Index Seminum 
The Desert Legume Program
2120 East Allen Road
Tucson, Arizona  85719
U.S.A.
520-318-7047
=========================================================

              Extra Legume Resource of the Day


Allen, O.N. and E.K. Allen.  1981.  The Leguminosae - A 
Source Book of Characteristics, Uses, and Nodulation.  The 
University of Wisconsin Press, Madison.  812 p. 
 
==========================================================


*Ozark Farming, Gardening, & Permaculture Network
Steve Diver
http://sunsite.unc.edu/london/permaculture/faq.v1.3

*Current project is a Sunbelt/Hydrosource roadside flower
bed containing prairie wildflowers, natives, herbaceous perennials,
annual flowers, and herbs.  This demonstration site proves
that an herbaceous bed of flowers, vegetables, or herbs can
be installed and receive low-maintenance and still produce 
high yields under weed-free conditions. 

The integrated components include a heavy-duty fabric 
weed barrier (Sunbelt), a hydrogel (Hydrosource), poultry
fertilizer, and mycorrhizae (Bio-Organics).  

The site was rain fed after four initial waterings to establish plugs,
transplants, and bare-root plants.  A gravity-fed drip system from 
Chapin Waterworks has been ordered to further demonstrate an additional 
integrated component that may be helpful or needed under extreme 
conditions. 

A bonus was the abundance of butterflys, moths, and other
insect species that found the flowers attractive for their 
floral nectaries and habitat.  A few bugs (loopers) required hand
picking to prevent defoliation of certain plant species. 


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 23:19:11 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:24:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@president.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
cc: permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: TH: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute 
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: FloraList Operations (Richard) <flora@Flora.Com>
To: Community Forestry <Tree-House@List.Flora.Com>
Subject: TH: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute
 [Dear Tree-House -
 This item was posted to several other mailing-lists.  You'll recognize
 Rodale Institute as publishing 'Organic Gardening' magazine.  Richard] ...
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 15:08:41 -0700
From: rharin@rodaleinst.org (Rebecca Haring)
To: Tree-House@List.Flora.Com
Subject: Permaculture Swale & Pond Building Workshop @ Rodale Institute
Message-ID: <322CAC69.2B80@rodaleinst.org>

For Immediate Release					September 3 1996

Contact:  Karle Maurer, 610-683-1424

Rodale Institute to Hold Permaculture Swale and 
Pond Building Workshop

Instructors From Arizona and Australia Will Lead Three-Day Seminar

KUTZTOWN, PA:  Rodale Institute will hold a three-day workshop on swale 
and pond building at its 333-acre Experimental Farm October 17 - 19.  The 
course will be taught by permaculture instructors Scott Pittman of 
Arizona and Doug Dorrough of Australia.

Permaculture means "permanence in agriculture," and succeeds in all 
climates by capturing and managing water that is otherwise lost.  
Recently, permaculture concepts have been successfully applied to 
residential landscapes as well.

Farmers, landscape designers and contractors, architects, municipal and 
civic engineers, and homeowners are invited to learn how to conserve and 
use water, in a hands-on workshop that will include direct experience 
recontouring the Rodale Institute Experimental Farm for better water use. 
 New holding ponds and swales (trenches that route rainwater to where it 
is needed) will be laid out and constructed during the session.

"Most swales today are designed to take water away," explains Anthony 
Rodale, Vice Chair of the non-profit Rodale Institute and the force 
behind the workshop.  "But eventually, the farmer or homeowner is going 
to want that water back in a dry time.  Permaculture designs hold and use 
water as many times as possible before it passes out of the property."

The October workshop is a follow-on to the 14-day comprehensive 
permaculture design workshop which Rodale Institute hosted last April.  
Water management is the first and most important step to permaculture.  
Other aspects of permaculture, such as soil improvement, plant selection, 
aquaculture, and reforesting, are among the plans for future workshops in 
the series.

"If this is your first exposure to permaculture, it's a great way to 
start," offers Rodale.  "If you get really excited about it, there will 
be many more opportunities to get involved."  

Permaculture workshops are offered throughout the world by certified 
instructors from the Permaculture Institute, such as Pittman and 
Dorrough.

The Rodale Institute works with people worldwide to achieve regenerative 
food systems that renew environmental and human health.

Everyone is invited to enroll in the pond and swale building workshop 
October 17 - 19.  All meals are included in the three-day admission 
charge of $300.  Lodging is available close by.   Enrollment is limited. 
 Please call Rodale Institute at 610-683-1424 for information and 
reservations.

Rodale Institute is an independent, non-profit public charity,
under sections 501(c)3 and 509(a)2 of the IRS code.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep  4 23:57:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:24:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@president.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: BIODYNAMICS/BIODIVERSITY CONFERENCE OCT 4-6 (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:30:09 -0400
From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@his.com>
To: igg@his.com
Subject: BIODYNAMICS/BIODIVERSITY CONFERENCE OCT 4-6

PRESS  RELEASE

For Immediate Release

WHAT: 			The 1996 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Farming and
Gardening Conference

WHEN: 			Friday, October 4 thru Sunday,  October 6

WHERE: 			The Claymont Agricultural Project
			Claymont Court
			Huyette Road
			Charles Town, West Virginia

WHO SHOULD ATTEND: 	Farmers, Gardeners, Aquaculturists, Educators and
persons interested in
                                              	Waldorf education, Parents,
Health Practitioners, Whole Foods
			Advocates, Macrobiotics and Nutritionists as well
as anyone interested
			in the environment, their health, or in good
tasting food,  Students of
			Rudolf  Steiner and Anthroposophy, anyone attending
to their inner life



CONTACT: 	                            Allan Balliett, BD Conference
coordinator (304) 876-2373 or
                                                    email: igg@his.com

www.his.com/~claymont/claymontag.html

BACKGROUND
Biodynamics (BD) is a science of life-forces, a recognition of the basic
principles at work in nature, and an approach to agriculture which takes
these principles into account to bring about balance and healing. In a very
real way, then, Biodynamics is an ongoing path of knowledge rather than an
assemblage of methods and techniques.

Biodynamics is part of the work of Rudolf Steiner, known as anthroposophy
-- a new approach to science which integrates precise observation of
natural phenomena, clear thinking, and knowledge of the spirit. It offers
an account of the spiritual history of the Earth as a living being, and
describes the evolution of the constitution of humanity and the kingdoms of
nature.  (from What is Biodynamics by Sherry Wildfleur, Kimberton, PA)

The theme of this year's BD conference at Claymont is "The Soil, Nutrition,
and the Soul." Presenters at this conference will investigate current
knowledge on the effects of nutrition on human health and behavior.  The
effects of soil quality upon the nutritive content of  plants will be
discussed at length. Several workshops will concentrate on how to build
healthy soil and grow healthy plants without chemical ammendments.

In response to the recent call by the Biodynamic Association  of America
for BD practitioners to pay more attention to husbanding the water and
aquatic life on their farms, presentations will be made at this Conference
by specialists in conventional aquaculture.

Tours of the aquaculture facilities at the Freshwater Institute and of the
colonial mill at the Thomas Shepherd Grist Mill (both in Shepherdstown)
will be available on Sunday, October 6.

Cost for the 3-day conference will be $129, if paid in advance (before
10/1), and $149 at the door. This includes all lectures and workshops and
hearty macrobiotic, vegetarian and/or omnivore meals. Lodging is available
at Claymont at reasonable rates. Childcare is available during the day at
reasonable rates. VISA/MasterCard/Discover accepted with advance payment
only.

Each day will begin with a Eurythmy exercise which will taught by Mollie
Amies of Spring Valley, NY.

The Claymont Agricultural Project is based upon agrarian disciplines which
extend into antiquity, the principles of the Claymont system can be traced
back to ancient Greece, Persia and the Far East.>In its present form, the
Claymont Agricultural Project is emerging as a vital integration of several
movements: Dr. Steiner's Biodynamic Agriculture, Alan Chadwick's French
Intensive Agriculture and G.I. Gurdjieff's "Fourth Way" as transmitted by
J.G. Bennett (the founder of Claymont). While striving to preserve and
rejuvenate the soil and plants at Claymont Court, The Claymont Agricultural
Project is committed to sharing the design and implementation of small
scale, sustainable agrarian systems while becoming a living example of how
humanity can thrive upon the earth without destroying it.

PRESENTERS
What follows is the confirmed line-up for the October 4-6 Biodynamic
Farming and Gardening Conference at Claymont Court, a 400 acre BD estate
outside of Charles Town, WV.

For more information: Allan Balliett (304) 876-2373  email: igg@his.com

Updated information pertaining to the conference and a detailed map are
available at: www.his.com/~claymont/claymontag.html

This conference is made possible in part by a grant from the Center for
Sustainable Living.

==========================================================================
ALAN KAPULER (Seeds of Change) Visionary co-founder and head of the
research department of Seeds of Change,  one of the best heirloom seed
companies in America. There is no more inspiring and informative
spokesperson for biodiversity and what it means for human development and
survival than Mr Kapuler. In addition to his studies in diversity, Dr
Kapuler is an expert on the variance in 'nutritional density'  in varieties
within families of food crops.  In his spare time, Dr Kapuler is working to
develop a 'non-violent' diet for humans (in a non-violent diet, no plants
are destroyed for human consumption). Dr Kapuler restricts himself to two
lectures a year; it is a rare and wonderful pleasure to have Dr. Kapuler on
the East Coast. Dr Kapular was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer over 10
years ago, refused the chemical treatment and has kept himself alive - -
and brilliant - - through a macrobiotic diet.

BOB PUTZ (Freshwater Institute) Former Director , Leetown National
Fisheries Center, Leetown, WV,  current ly Director of Science for The
Conservation Fund and founder of the globally influential aquaculture think
tank, The Freshwater Institute, "a first-rate internationally recognized
research and deveopment facility with programs that identify and
demonstrate uses of freshwater resources that protect the quality of those
resources while allowing sutainable economic growth."  An advisor to
governments, Mr Putz enjoys applying his fish farming knowledge to
economically sustainable aquaculture installations on subsistence farms. Mr
Putz will also provide a tour of the aquaculture facilities at  The
Freshwater Institute, in Shepherdstown, WV on Sunday.

HUGH COURTNEY (Josephine Porter Institute of Applied Biodynamics)
Manufacturer and distributor of most of the BD preps used in the Western
hemisphere. Hugh is a farmer, a  scientist, advisor and mentor to hundreds
of BD growers, and a great writer. He will be discussing "Soil Nutrition
and the BD Preps." He will also bring his wonderful book table with him!!

HUGH LOVELL (Union Agricultural Institute) Market Gardener , CSA manager,
author and alternative farming methods guru. Hugh's annual BD conferences
in Blairsville, GA are legendary. Hugh is knowledgeable in radionics,
dowsing and several other alternative energies.'  His book, A Biodynamic
Farm, is one of my favorites! He will demonstrate the cosmic pipe as a very
effective means of distributing the BD preps across a field. We are going
to also ask him to teach a bread making class!!

BRUCE BLEVINS (Nokomis Farms) Former Claymont gardener and  "the most
brilliant BD grower in America." Bruce currently runs a biodynamic market
garden, greenhouse and landscape design enterprise in Wisconsin. With 17
years of gardening experience and a 1979 apprenticeship with Alan Chadwick,
Mr. Blevins is a master horticulturist and a dynamic speaker who brings his
knowledge of biodynamics and greenhouse work to bear on the problems and
challenges facing today's market gardener.

WOODY WODRASKA (Tree of Life Rejuvenation Center)  Former Claymont garden
helper. Woody's articles in the BD Quarterly in the past few year have all
been memorable and informative.  Woody apprenticed in biodynamic farming at
Kimberton in the 80's, initiated one of the first CSAs in this country,
and has started  gardens in 13 states. While following classical biodynamic
procedures, Woody has continued to experiment with other techniques to
appropriately raise the energy level in the garden. (We are anticipating a
flow forms demonstration.)

NORIO KUSHI (Kushi Foundation) Macrobiotic educator. Son of the great
macrobiotic teacher, Michio Kushi, Norio was raised in the macrobiotic
lifestyle. He will discuss the human health: what are the parameters, how
is it achieved?

SALLY SILVERSTONE (Cyberspheres, Inc) Ms Silverstone worked from 1985 to
1994 with the team that designed and built Biopshere 2 . She helped with
the design and implementation of  the entire
agricultural base for Biosphere2. More than that, she lived with it!! - as
Co-Captain and Director of Agriculture and Food systems of the team that
carried out the first two year closed mission
You will find her experiences radically different from how Biosphere2 was
portrayed in the
press.  She has many valuable lessons to share after spending two years in
what has to have been the most 'self-contained farm ' in the world.

JEAN YEAGER (Biodynamic Association) Editor  of Biodynamics, the bimonthly
publication of the BD Association. Jean's experience in the needs and
requirements of today's farms and communities is both deep and wide. Jean
will do two workshops, one on marketing, the other on community.

BJORN NILSSON (Claymont Farms) Master Gardener at Claymont. A former
Chadwick apprentice and student of British philosopher and mathematician,
J..G. Bennett and advocate of the emerging healing art agritherapy. Bjorn
will speak on "The Fourth Way in Agriculture."

CRAIG ALAN SISKA (Verdant Earth) Biodynamic Landscape Architect and
gardener. Student of Alan Chadwick at New Market. Craig will speak in depth
on an yet to be chosen horticultural topic.

Andrea HUff (Camphill Waldorf School) Designer of the first vegetarian
whole-grain hot school lunch program in this country! Andrea is an expert
on the effects of nutrition on human development and behavior and is an
impassioned and knowledgeable speaker.

ROBYN STAHR (Anthroposophic Nutritionist) Ms Stahr has a deep knowledge of
Rudolf Steiner's insights into the relationship between nutrition and the
ability to have spiritual insight. She has some surprising information and
will do both a lecture and a cooking demonstration.

Dr Peter Hinderberger (Baltimore Wellness Center) Anthroposphic Doctor and
homeopath. Dr Hinderberger will address Rudolf Steiner's remarks regarding
the relationship between nutrition and the ability to manifest Will on the
physical plane.

REX HERRIL (Remineralization Expert) Market Gardener. Mr Herril has spent
the last 10 years actively studying how minerals affect the quality of
plants and how the quality of plants eaten affects human development.

PETER TOMPKINS (Secret Life of Plants, Secrets of the Soil) Author. Mr
Tompkins is a neighbor of ours. He will participate at the conference if he
is able to keep his September visit to South America within its schedule.
His forthcoming  book is  "Secrets of Nature."

MICHAEL JUDGE (Washington Waldorf School CSA) BD market grower and CSA
manager. Michael will do a workshop on food and the community.

MARY YEAGAR (Kimberton Anthroposophic Artist) Anthroposophic water coloring
training. Exhibition of therapeutic art.

JIM MARQUARDT (BD Orchardist, Winchester, VA; Vice-President, JPI) Jim
operates an orchard of heirloom apples in Winchester. He will do a workshop
on BD orchard work

Dr. LOUIS LEONARDI (Natural Health practitioner (Chiropractor)) Dr.
Leonardi has deep insight into the relationship between nutrition and human
health.  He will speak on true health and how it is attained. Biological
Agents in the Soil/Biological Medicine for the Body  and Plural Morphism.

BERNARD McDONAGH (Claymont Agricultural Project)  Horticulturist and
organic grower. Bernard has recently come to Claymont to pursue his
interest in farms and community. His experience in organic growing is both
deep and broad. He will speak on one of his favorite topics: the use of
beneficial insects.

MOLLIE AMIES (Three-Fold Foundation) Eurythmy Instructor. Mollie will
provide two workshops on Eurythmy as well as lead us in eurythmy exercises
each day. Eurythmy is a form of sacred dance taught by Rudolf Steiner to
promote the integration of Body, Mind and Spirit.

ANN ROSS (Homeopathic Veterinarian) Ann will give a lecture on natural care
of livestock and pets. She is coming from Cincinatti to present at this
event. She was highly recommended by Ed Schaeffer who writes the natural
vet column for Acres.

JACK LARSEN Jack will speak on the Albrecht soil theories.

JIMMY FOLTZ (Peace in the Valley Herbs) Jimmy, a noted herbalist in the
Shenadoah Valley will discuss the principles behind herbal tinctures and
demonstrate how to make them.

REGISTRATION:	Pre-Register by sending check or money order to
		Mid-Atlantic BD Conference
		c/o Allan Balliett
		POB 3047
		Shepherdstown, WV 25443

		Checks should be made out to "The NetWork"

		VISA/MasterCard/Discover accepted for early registration only!
		Call (304) 876-2373 (or FAX (304) 876-9414) to register by
charge card

		Cost of the Conference & all meals & snacks is $129 if paid
before 10/1
		($149 at the door)
		Children 6-12 are half-price. Children Under 6 are Free.
		Lodging and Childcare are available at reasonable cost.





From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 09:55:26 1996
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To: DreamtimeV@aol.com
cc: s100962@student.uq.edu.au, permaext@magna.com.au, askpv@ozemail.com.au,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: REintroduction
Status: O
X-Status: 

The Web certainly seems to be the wave of the future for information
distribution, but few so far in our area (Houston) have email, let alone Web
access. My question about information distribution was directed at the issue
of distributing it to ALL elements of the population including the
illiterate, don't reads, read but don't type, word process but don't use
modems, and so forth of all education and wealth classes.  Bob/Urban Harvest

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 11:42:16 1996
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:42:21 -0700
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: llami@teleport.com (Lawton/Miller)
Subject: update and request
Status: O
X-Status: 

As some of you may recall, I am a new resident of the Willamette Valley,
Oregon. Since it was late in the year by the time I could begin, I only
planted a small portion of the 40x90 space available. I spread newspapers
over the giant weeds growing in the garden, after tramping them down. I
piled up stacks of grass and weeds I'd cut a couple of weeks before. I
poured some compost over it all, and planted transplants. IT WORKED! I've
had lovely vegies, and I thank the folks on this list whenever I enjoy
them.

Now I'd like to prepare that entire space, as well as another space equally
as large for next spring's garden, as well as a smaller space for a winter
garden. How can I prepare a space that large using permaculture methods? Do
I have to empty out those newspaper recycling bins? Wouldn't that be
stealing? :-) The whole garden is full of tall grass stalks, thistle, and
other amazing weeds which are head-high. How can I keep the place from
being full of weeds next year? I'd like to plant in grids 4x4 or 4x8, I
think. What can I put on the paths between to keep down weeds? Detailed
advice would be much appreciated. Or even advice about what book(s) to find
in the library.

Thanks!

Lee


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A good pun is its own reword.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 15:35:39 1996
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From: pavlicj@uniserve.com (mark and jan)
Status: O
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unsubscribe permaculture-mg Jan Pavlic


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 16:02:19 1996
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From: pavlicj@uniserve.com (mark and jan)
Subject: unsubscribe permaculture-mg
Status: O
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unsubscribe permaculture-mg


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 16:21:30 1996
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From: blissv@nmhu.campus.mci.net
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Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:06:38 -0600 (MDT)
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Permaculture and Rodale
Status: RO
X-Status: 

   While it might be an oxymoron to use 'organic gardening' and 'mainstream'
in the same sentence, Rodale press has done more towards bringing awareness
of organic growing to mainstream than any other single source of
information.  To receive 'advertising' of the unprecedented event, that of
the Permaculture Conference for Rodale, is nothing less than monumental.
Certainly, I was pleased to receive the post and hear of the intended
agenda, though not planning to attend.

Most likely, the publication will provide reports on the Conference and will
have follow-up articles on specific techniques and philosophies of
Permaculture.  While bringing new life to the magazine, this will introduce
many of their widespread distribution of readers to Permaculture concepts
for the first time.  Clearly, there is much worthy of support in this coming
venture.

Vinca

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 16:38:18 1996
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Date: 05 Sep 96 14:07:35 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: Lee <llami@teleport.com>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Low-external input, no-till ag 
Message-ID: <960905180735_75554.631_GHJ47-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Re: Lee's questions about bed preparation, some input from a long-time lazyass:

	The method you already used is great, if you have more materials. I have
practiced that method for years, it will even overcome Bermuda grass in the
southern US if a good, well-overlapped layer of newspaper or cardboard is used
(one layer of cardboard will do it, but the overlaps need to be a foot or so and
very carefully preserved in place during the compost materials-spreading
operation -- dont forget the slots at corners).

	As regards materials: Do strange people laboriously collect, bag, and
then (inexplicably) discard primo composting materials onto their curbs in
nearby towns in your area, as they do here in TX? Can you get them? I'm sure
some ethnographer somewhere has discovered a reason for this bizarre cultural
practice, no doubt a throwback to some obscure, long-past environmental pressure
once experienced by these interesting people. Strange what cultural relics
remain long after their usefulness has expired.

	Weed seeds: A question... How are the seeds from last fall doing now? Did
you get many volunteers of questionable ancestry? It'd be great if you posted a
report on their present activity. Many weed seeds are adapted to soil
disturbance, which means the seeds need exposure to light after their initial
dormancy [if any] in order to germinate. This is true of a fairly large
percentage of those weeds considered "pernicious" [let these suckers go for a
season or two, THEN try and control them, and you'll really gain a deep insight
into that "pernicious" label]. Point being, if you practice constant-mulch,
no-till gardening, you will not regularly expose buried seeds to the light, and
so will only see a minute fraction of the weeds you will see if you dig your
beds. Further, since Mother Nature has been gardening for so long, she has this
wonderful agreement with the earthworms wherein THEY agree to do the tilling,
and SHE agrees not to chop them into bits with a shovel and tired back.
Earthworms don't eat dirt [did y'alls' moms tell you that, too? I've finally
come to realize what a bullshitter my mother was], they come up at night and eat
tiny bits of plant detritus. I spent last year growing seeds for a small
non-profit, there was a really severe drought for over 13 months, we ran out of
grass clippings for all the beds and had to use old hay. The hay came in such
big pieces, it bridged over low spots in the underlying soil and created a haven
for pillbugs, on the one hand [pillbugs/sowbugs/roly-poly's eat dead stuff
usually, but if you get enough of them in one place they'll eat anything -- love
potato vines], and on the other hand the hay was in too-big-pieces for the
earthworms. I could dig a couple inches into the soil under (small-sized) grass
clipping mulches, and the earthworms were THICK, whereas under the hay they were
few. There was of course also a noticeable difference in tilth under the two
materials, with the grass clippings and earthworms winning out handily. Fireants
also preferred the hay, bless their little soul-less carcasses. 

	Are grass clipping sustainable? As long as Bubba bags 'em and sets 'em on
the curb, maybe, in a strangely roundabout sort of way. Beyond that, I don't
know. Since I've long studied this problem, the gasoline bugs me, and Ive tried
to run a lawnmower on Everclear (tried to run myself on it for a while once,
didnt work either, thats another story). Apparently, engineers have told me,
the reason it didn't work was that alcohol doesn't vaporize as readily as
gasoline and needs to be atomized by injection under pressure. So maybe someone
will bring out an alcohol lawnmower with fuel injection, wouldn't be all that
crazy. Then a sustainable system using grass clippings might be feasible.

	Jeavons has shown, and my experience bears this out, that to maintain
on-site fertility with green manures used as mulches, you need a balance of
about 30% production to 70% green manure, with about 60 - 70% of  the green
manure being carbonaceous (brown -- it does make a difference) in order to
maintain organic matter in the very microbiologically-active soil environment
that the clippings create. Swales with 5'-wide berm/beds [10' wide if you count
swale basins] placed at 30' intervals down a hill will produce more than enough
green manure to maintain both the swale beds and the intervening green manure
fields [an alternative to swales in very-heavy soils on very-flat land is to dig
drainage networks, use the dirt to raise beds, then dam the drainage networks
periodically to catch the water, keeping it 6" or so below bed tops and so
maintaining good drainage during periods of excessive rainfall]. Swale basins
can create a large amount of mulch materials in their own right (cannas work
phenomenally-well in the southern US, in drought often out-producing the grassed
areas), as do the beds themselves in the form of weeds (weeds can be a
substantial source of green matter if you dont pull them until they get big).
Carbonaceous materials are easily supplied by deciduous trees, and on a more
consistent basis by grass stalks (sorghum/Sudan grass is amazingly productive in
dry conditions, any of the grains, etc.). If the inter-swale fields are treated
well -- planted with a mix of grasses, forbs and legumes for use as green
manure, and one of every two or three cuttings just left on the fields -- then
grain crops can be gotten from the fields (winter is a great time for this in
the South) and their straw used for the carbonaceous component of the mulch.
Nitrogenous and carbonaceous materials [at about 30-70 to 40-60] don't have to
be applied concurrently, but work most dramatically if they are. Mixing can be
accomplished well by underseeding a legume a few weeks before cutting the stalks
(sometimes -- ok, usually -- weeds will have made a large contribution of green
matter by harvest time). Mung beans grow incredibly fast, fix nitrogen, and will
be reseeding [with mature, dry seeds] in as little as 40 days! Buckwheat is very
fast, sorghum if you don't expect reseeding, oats (fall growth) or ryegrass
(spring growth) in the colder months. Medicagos are great, reseed well, grow low
and so are not destroyed by mowing usually, vetches are fast, reseed late
spring, die back if mowed when tall. Die-back can be an advantage if a crop is
to follow (vetch/ryegrass mix will seed late spring, can be cut down and left
over cowpeas, sorghum, late corn if you're not too far South, and will not come
back to compete with the crop).

	Oh well, better go before Im chased away, just some thoughts and
observations, Jack.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Thu Sep  5 18:45:59 1996
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From: KELLY MILLIMAN <MILLIMAN@nwf.org>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject:  Unsubscribe
Status: O
X-Status: 

unsubscribe permaculture-mg  Kelly Milliman

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 14:32:34 1996
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Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:20:02 -0700 (PDT)
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From: Carl Rosenberg <carlr@igc.apc.org>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Composting toilet info wanted
Status: O
X-Status: 

Hi, I am looking for info for getting an old composting toilet 
working.  It is a Humus #H-10C with a bad fan and element.  Any info 
would be appreciated.
Thanks

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 14:35:45 1996
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unsubscribe permaculture-mg

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 15:08:24 1996
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 23:43:17 +0900
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: rinehart@vir.bekkoame.or.jp (Rinehart)
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Subject: Permaculture for high altitude ?
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HELP

Having read The New Organic Grower's Four Season Harvest and preparing to
move to 9.500 ft. on the eastern slope of the Rockies in Colorado.  Can
anyone tell us from experience how much of this can be applied to living at
this altitude and location ?

Is anyone aware of information that deals specificaly with Permaculture for
high altitude ?

________________________________________________________
Rinehart

rinehart@vir.bekkoame.or.jp

1-27-26 Soya, Ichikawa-Shi, Chiba-Ken.  272  Japan
ph and fax  0473-75-2639

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 15:29:42 1996
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From: rinehart@vir.bekkoame.or.jp (Rinehart)
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Subject: Permaculture for  high altitude ?
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Status: O
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HELP

Having read The New Organic Grower's Four Season Harvest and preparing to
move to 9.500 ft. on the eastern slope of the Rockies in Colorado.  Can
anyone tell us from experience how much of this can be applied to living at
this altitude and location ?

Is anyone aware of information that deals specificaly with Permaculture for
high altitude ?

________________________________________________________
Rinehart

rinehart@vir.bekkoame.or.jp

1-27-26 Soya, Ichikawa-Shi, Chiba-Ken.  272  Japan
ph and fax  0473-75-2639

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 15:40:37 1996
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 21:27:16 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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To: UrbanHarve@aol.com
CC: DreamtimeV@aol.com, s100962@student.uq.edu.au, askpv@ozemail.com.au,
        permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Introduction
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UrbanHarve@aol.com wrote:
> 
> The Web certainly seems to be the wave of the future for information
> distribution, but few so far in our area (Houston) have email, let alone Web
> access.

Like the situation in Australia!

 My question about information distribution was directed at the issue
> of distributing it to ALL elements of the population including the
> illiterate, don't reads, read but don't type, word process but don't use
> modems, and so forth of all education and wealth classes.  Bob/Urban Harvest

I guess that would call for a multiple media approach, Bob. Video, 
print, radio etc. But that means money. Maybe we need a permaculture 
educational comic!

April Sampson-Kelly (Mt Kembla, Australia) worte me today that it's 
time for another major video production similar to Bill Mollison's 
Global Gardener series on permaculture around the world. The ABC 
(government run national broadcaster) has run the production three 
times but told April that the series will not be shown again. This is 
unfortunate.

The situation we face in Australia is that much of the funding we 
receive from government for community initiated stuff is drying up. As 
for raising money from the community (we have 18 million people here 
in a country about the size of the USA), I believe that's unlikely. A 
video production such as Global Gardener is expensive to produce.

The impact of Global Gardener was significant. Permaculture classes we 
taught at adult evening colleges more than doubled in size as a direct 
result of the broadcast of Global Gardener on prime time television. 
It was a great boon to the grassroots sustainable development ethos 
and provided direct evidence that community self-help really works - a 
change from the usual stories in the media concerning the developing 
world, which focus on disasters, disease and war.

The lesson of Global Gardener attests to the value of television as 
valuable media for sustainable development matters and is relevant to 
your discussion (above) on information distribution.
 
Thanks for discussing the issee...

...Russ and Fiona

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 16:32:40 1996
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Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 20:35:20 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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CC: DreamtimeV@aol.com, s100962@student.uq.edu.au, askpv@ozemail.com.au,
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Subject: Re: REintroduction
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Status: O
X-Status: 

UrbanHarve@aol.com wrote:
> 
> The Web certainly seems to be the wave of the future for information
> distribution, but few so far in our area (Houston) have email, let alone Web
> access.

Like the situation in Australia!

 My question about information distribution was directed at the issue
> of distributing it to ALL elements of the population including the
> illiterate, don't reads, read but don't type, word process but don't use
> modems, and so forth of all education and wealth classes.  Bob/Urban Harvest

I guess that would call for a multiple media approach, Bob. Video, 
print, radio etc. But that means money. Maybe we need a permaculture 
educational comic!

April Sampson-Kelly (Mt Kembla, Australia) worte me today that it's 
time for another major video production similar to Bill Mollison's 
Global Gardener series on permaculture around the world. The ABC 
(government run national broadcaster) has run the production three 
times but told April that the series will not be shown again. This is 
unfortunate.

The situation we face in Australia is that much of the funding we 
receive from government for community initiated stuff is drying up. As 
for raising money from the community (we have 18 million people here 
in a country about the size of the USA), I believe that's unlikely. A 
video production such as Global Gardener is expensive to produce.

The impact of Global Gardener was significant. Permaculture classes we 
taught at adult evening colleges more than doubled in size as a direct 
result of the broadcast of Global Gardener on prime time television. 
It was a great boon to the grassroots sustainable development ethos 
and provided direct evidence that community self-help really works - a 
change from the usual stories in the media concerning the developing 
world, which focus on disasters, disease and war.

The lesson of Global Gardener attests to the value of television as 
valuable media for sustainable development matters and is relevant to 
your discussion (above) on information distribution.
 
Thanks for discussing the issee...

...Russ and Fiona
-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 16:32:54 1996
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From: DreamtimeV@aol.com
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Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:46:52 -0400
Message-ID: <960906113453_1477002745@emout15.mail.aol.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: REintroduction
Status: O
X-Status: 

I think this discussion is quite pertinent,  in light of the permaculture
concept that "everything gardens".

Miekal
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Re: REintroduction
Date:    96-09-06 11:29:31 EDT
From:    DreamtimeV
To:      UrbanHarve

Ive been a cultural anarchist for 20 years & used to believe that media that
were accessible to all regardless of race & class was the only true populism.
 At this point, that ideologie misses the main point, the point is INCREASE
OUR OPTIONS EXPONENTUALLY.  DO IT ALL.  & the main arguement to your
arguement is that 1000s-1000000 of people who have never even heard the word
permaculture, will never hear it on tv or on the radio & maybe token articles
in local papers.  But on the net, we are fielding questions every day from
people who are very interested & want to know more.   It is the global brain
being hard wired.

Miekal

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 16:35:49 1996
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Message-ID: <01BB9BEA.83359500@slwol1p47.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        "'Permaculture Extension Services'" <permaext@magna.com.au>
Subject: web limits and world poverty
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 11:43:05 +-1000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: RO
X-Status: 

Yes the web has a limited market.  and we won't reach people who are
really in need of solutions on sustainable production in third world countries
but we can reach the main causes of poverty in those nations.
We can reach the greatest consumers of world energy, the greatest
wasters of resources.  
The third world actually give us more money than we give them
it is a simple sum.  We lend them money, they pay it back with
interest.
We lend them money on projects that we decide  they need - dams 
that flood fertile regions, stop seasonal fish breeding areas and more.

Permaculture is a double-edged wedge.
I think sometimes it would be easier to work with those needy people
the rewards from happy well-fed children would be greater than 
influencing people here to avoid disposable nappies, to look for 
safe alternatives, to waste not and produce more.
April

The WWW offers an avenue if you have a home page. Then you don't have 
the expense and work of publishing.

Problem is, most people - at least in Austraila - don't have access to 
WWW or email even though the use of these media is growing fast. So, 
the most accessible form of communication of locally relevant 
information remains printed media in its various forms.

Until recently we published a permaculture journal for the Sydney 
bioregion which carried useful, locally relevant information. This was 
a successful media for the transmission of information.

We have found that printed matter is an accessible media for passing 
on information in the Solomon Islands where we are involved in a 
village agriculture project.

There, access to the internet is virtually zero - it is largely a 
media restricted to people in affluent nations and of only marginal 
accessibility to people in developing countries (ie four-fifths of 
humanity). There's not only the issue of access in countries with poor 
telecommunications facilities, there's the big issue of affordability 
and skills. 

One media which has proven useful there is video. This gets around the 
problem of illiteracy and there is often a video machine in many of 
the villages and, of course, video's are portable.

I guess the strategy for maximun information penetration is to 
simultaneously publish both in print and on the web.

I would be interested in finding out what you people at Urban Harvest 
do and how you do it. Are you into urban agriculture? Urban 
agriculture - in the form of community gardens and community supported 
agriculture - is fairly new in Australia. In Sydney, we're involved in 
a couple community gardens and train people in relevant skills and 
assist with design.

We're also contacts for a community garden/ city farm network covering 
most of the country. So, we're eager to learn what other groups are 
doing.

Thanks...

...Russ Grayson


-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.





From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 16:38:11 1996
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To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: dbutdorf@ncgate.newcollege.edu (Douglas E. Butdorf)
Subject: Help !!!!!!!
Status: RO
X-Status: 

I really want to unsubscribe to this mailing, but I can't figure out how,
please help me.




From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 19:01:13 1996
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From: jblakley@icanect.net
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Message-Id: <199609092126.RAA25812@foo.icanect.net>
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 17:23:59
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: How to Unsubscribe
X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.1 
Status: RO
X-Status: 

For those of you who want to unsubscribe from the permaculture-mg list and
have either lost the instructions or never saved them in the first place,
here they are, one more time:

Send an e-mail to: almanac@ces.ncsu.edu

with *nothing* written in the subject line *and* the following as the body
of the message:

unsubscribe permaculture-mg

That will get you off this list.  In the future, please save the
instructions that you get when you subscribe to a list, so that others
don't have to provide these instructions for you.

Jeff



--
********Registered User of MR/2 ICE for OS/2*********
Jeff Blakley                                  jblakley@icanect.net


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep  9 23:51:51 1996
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Message-ID: <3234D310.67E@magna.com.au>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:31:44 +1000
From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: int discussion group <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Seed storage in wet tropics
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anybody know about or have experience in the processing of
vegetable and fruit seed and their storage in wet tropical conditions?

We have a permaculture-based village garden agriculture project in the
Solomon Islands, a little north west of Papua New Guinea in the South
West Pacific. That's the wet tropics.

The project aims to achieve food security, introduce new garden
agriculture methods and where appropriate to incorporate traditional
garden agriculture methods such as the TUKU garden system derived from
traditional Solomon Islands slash and burn gardening.

There is no refrigeration (often no electrical power) available to run
a refrigerator to store seeds.

The project has set up the Planting Materials Network (newsletter
available via post) which acts like a seed bank or seed exchange with
the aim of distributing useful food plant seeds and other planting
material and to establish a base of supply for these materials to
support subsistence village garden agriculture.

Our need is to store seed through the seasons.

A method for doing this is to hang seeds over the kitchen fire where
creosote in the smoke preserves the seed. This, obviously, can handle
only small, domestic quantities of seed. What the project requires is
a somewhat larger - but not too large scale - method where a greater
quantity of seed can be processed and securely stored.

In the wet tropics, there's spoilage due to moisture related causes
such as fungus. To some extent this has been dealt with by packing
seed with either wood ash or silica gell.

What we need to hear about are methods which utilise the appropriate
technology approach, which avoid the need to import hi-tech industrial
equipment, which use local materials and which are manageable by local
people.

Any advice gratefully received.

If you want information about the Planting Materials Network or the
Kastom Garden Project, email me and I will post it to you.

Thanks...

...Russ Grayson

-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep 10 00:51:07 1996
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From: Permaculture Extension Services <permaext@magna.com.au>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
To: int discussion group <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
CC: perma@eepo.com.au
Subject: Seed storage in wet tropics
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: O
X-Status: 

Does anybody know about or have experience in the processing of 
vegetable and fruit seed and their storage in wet tropical conditions?

We have a permaculture-based village garden agriculture project in the 
Solomon Islands, a little north west of Papua New Guinea in the South 
West Pacific. That's the wet tropics. 

The project aims to achieve food security, introduce new garden 
agriculture methods and where appropriate to incorporate traditional 
garden agriculture methods such as the TUKU garden system derived from 
traditional Solomon Islands slash and burn gardening.

There is no refrigeration (often no electrical power) available to run 
a refrigerator to store seeds.

The project has set up the Planting Materials Network (newsletter 
available via post) which acts like a seed bank or seed exchange with 
the aim of distributing useful food plant seeds and other planting 
material and to establish a base of supply for these materials to 
support subsistence village garden agriculture.

Our need is to store seed through the seasons. 

A method for doing this is to hang seeds over the kitchen fire where 
creosote in the smoke preserves the seed. This, obviously, can handle 
only small, domestic quantities of seed. What the project requires is 
a somewhat larger - but not too large scale - method where a greater 
quantity of seed can be processed and securely stored.

In the wet tropics, there's spoilage due to moisture related causes 
such as fungus. To some extent this has been dealt with by packing 
seed with either wood ash or silica gell.

What we need to hear about are methods which utilise the appropriate 
technology approach, which avoid the need to import hi-tech industrial 
equipment, which use local materials and which are manageable by local 
people.

Any advice gratefully received.

If you want information about the Planting Materials Network or the 
Kastom Garden Project, email me and I will post it to you.

Thanks...

...Russ Grayson
-- 
PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
Email: permaext@magna.com.au

Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep 10 04:53:20 1996
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:00:32 +0200
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Status: O
X-Status: 

>UrbanHarve@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> The Web certainly seems to be the wave of the future for information
>> distribution,

I don't see that. Certainly, integration of common services is attractivem,
but the WWW is just an old, primitive tool that is also missused in many
ways (people put too many pictures or animations on ist , an now Java...
argh!)

>> but few so far in our area (Houston) have email, let alone Web
>> access.

Email is the most important service in the internet. The Web can help to
distribute Email-Adresses but most informations should be better
distributed in plain-text that is usalbe with Email. (And with MIME you can
send pictures if needed)


>I guess that would call for a multiple media approach, Bob. Video,
>print, radio etc. But that means money. Maybe we need a permaculture
>educational comic!

Wow, I like that! :-)

>April Sampson-Kelly (Mt Kembla, Australia) worte me today that it's
>time for another major video production similar to Bill Mollison's
>Global Gardener series on permaculture around the world. The ABC
>(government run national broadcaster) has run the production three
>times but told April that the series will not be shown again. This is
>unfortunate.

I would suggest to put those things out on CD-ROM /The quality of the video
might be bader, but the option to anhance text and further material is the
way of the future! BTW: CD-ROMS can be used anywhere, because they do not
use a strandard like PAL,NTSC or SECAM. The only thuing that is needed is a
computer. Those CD-ROMs should be hybrids (That means the are running on
DOS-PC's as well as on Mac-PC's!) Maybe you can make parts of it available
on the web.

>The impact of Global Gardener was significant. Permaculture classes we
>taught at adult evening colleges more than doubled in size as a direct
>result of the broadcast of Global Gardener on prime time television.
>It was a great boon to the grassroots sustainable development ethos
>and provided direct evidence that community self-help really works - a
>change from the usual stories in the media concerning the developing
>world, which focus on disasters, disease and war.

Ok, but it is (for itself) not a sustainable way to build on the mass-media
or on the governments support, don't you think?


>The lesson of Global Gardener attests to the value of television as
>valuable media for sustainable development matters and is relevant to
>your discussion (above) on information distribution.


My view is, that what we (All people, not only Pc-Designer) really need is
an oral culture as an alternative to mass-media. *This* is really
sustainable. This would also mean to build something on people, more than
on organizations.

PS: excuse my bad english.

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep 10 11:51:04 1996
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From: Linda Cain <lsc@hplsc.fc.hp.com>
Message-Id: <199609101438.AA289526310@hplsc.fc.hp.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture for  high altitude ?
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> Is anyone aware of information that deals specificaly with Permaculture for
> high altitude ?

There is a company, H.A.P.I, in Ward, Colorado.  It is the High Altitude
Permaculture Insitute, run by Sandy Cruz.  I'm sure she has some
information that might be helpful for you:

  H.A.P.I
  Box 238
  Ward, Colorado  80481
  (303)459-3494
  
I hope this helps.
Linda  

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Tue Sep 10 12:29:10 1996
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From: Linda Cain <lsc@hplsc.fc.hp.com>
Message-Id: <199609101452.AA289617122@hplsc.fc.hp.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Permaculture for high altitude ?
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> Is anyone aware of information that deals specificaly with Permaculture for
> high altitude ?

There is a company, H.A.P.I, in Ward, Colorado.  It is the High Altitude
Permaculture Insitute, run by Sandy Cruz.  I'm sure she has some
information that might be helpful for you:

  H.A.P.I
  Box 238
  Ward, Colorado  80481
  (303)459-3494
  
I hope this helps.
Linda  

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 00:40:30 1996
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From: tim dysinger <timothy@habit.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Internships
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Greetings!

I am looking for an internship in permaculture design.  If you have any 
info on who to contact please let me know ASAP!  Any help is greatly 
appreciated!

Thank you.
 -  Tim


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 10:34:13 1996
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
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Message-ID: <960911083737_199061643@emout09.mail.aol.com>
To: permaext@magna.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Seed storage in wet tropics
Status: O
X-Status: 

It may be that you can't have it both ways.  You described the approach that
uses local materials and technology.  If you want to industrialize the
storage of seed (store larger quantities than appropriate scale for families
and communities) you may need to bring in some of the industrial technology.
 If you find appropriate methods, on the other hand, please let all of us
know!  This is important stuff that you are up to.

Silaca gel, definitely not a local material, and jars that seal, ditto, can
be made to work.  This is moderately low technology but still needs
importation.  This will keep seeds dry, which will kill some species--you
have to experiment or tell people which species you're working with.  It the
species doesn't have a dormant period, it may be best to preserve it as a
plant and not as seed.  You can use fire and/or sun to drive off moisture
when the silaca gel becomes saturated.  You can get silica gel that turns
color when charged with moisture, which is very helpful.

There may be natural materials that do the same thing.

You can also try making urns of the size required, and alternating layers of
wood ash and seed.  You can experiment with this on a small scale, of course.
 Sea salt, which these folks surely make, contains some calcium chloride
which works the same as silaca gel except that it goes into solution if it
gets too wet.  You can toast the sea salt over fire or concentrate solar
energy with a parabolic reflector (importing technological culture but not
necessarily materials) to drive off moisture (otherwise the CaCl2 will be
charged with water) and put a woven bag of this on top of the layers of ash
and seed.  The percentage of CaCl2 compared to NaCl is small, so you need a
few inches to have any effect at all.  Cover with more ashes, and seal with
whatever passes for wax or latex in the ecosystem.  All ecosystems with
vascular plants I've ever visited have latex species.  You also might include
leaves of local plants known to repel insects.

There probably are ways to include neem in such a strategy if you are willing
to import neem.  It may not produce much seed in your climate, but the leaves
are helpful.  Generally, if you can simulate drought stress, you have a good
chance for good seed crops.  There's a guy on the dry side of one of the
Hawaiian Islands that's working with neem at near sealevel conditions.  I've
done some permaculture design work on simulating drought conditions for
neem--we might be able to work something out.

I've observed that seaweeds seem to be deliquesent (suck up moisture).  It
may be worthwhile experimenting with dessicating local seaweeds and seeing if
they do this.

I've got out in the ether a proposal to form a network of tropical
PLANTATIONS, a Tree Bank is the term I coined, though it need not be limited
to trees.  The idea is that we get 20 or so places worldwide that are growing
reserves of species and varieties of useful plants in their area.  Exchange
is free among the cooperators.  If someone gets wiped out by a typhoon or
earthquake or war, everyon pitches in to replace what is lost.  The more
groups involved, the cheaper the insurance.  Regarding propagation and local
distribution of plant materials, that is best left to local culture and
conditions.  This will preserve species and varieties best.  

The time lag shouldn't be too severe.  Emergency food can be lots of
coconuts, which are pretty tough, and root crops, such as sweet potato, less
likely to be destroyed in catastrophe. Root crops that send up edible
vegetation, again e.g. sweet potato, would be particularly useful.

ECHO, Ft. Meyers, Florida USA, has some experience in storage of seeds in the
tropics.  I'll give you their email address: 
ECHO@xc.org .  They have a very  bountiful Web site at http://www.xc.org/echo
, but I do not recall any info on seed storage.  (I just downloaded
everything on it for a project we are involved with in Kenya and there was no
particularly helpful seed storage info.)  You can get Echo Development Notes
on disk and do a word search--probably there are tidbits on it.  You might
also check various tropical seed banks--get our database, TRIP (email for
details), if you don't have a list.

Finally, and I should have said this first, obviously you need to know the
natural history of the plant to get a fix on how best to store its seed.  You
have a shortcut in that you know the locals have already figured out species
that store by dessication, which is why I launched into that area first. 

Best of success in your important work.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and The Forest Ecosystem
Food Network.  P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478-2052 USA.

"We don't have time to rush."

PS

I just found the below in my mail.  It may be useful, though you would
probably need to adapt anything that you learn.

Subj:  Postharvest Research Email List
Date:  Mon, Sep 9, 1996 6:14 PM EDT
From:  mcdonaldr@hort.cri.nz
X-From: rmcdonald@hrr1.hort.cri.nz (Rod McDonald)
Reply-to: mcdonaldr@hort.cri.nz
To: sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu

The International Postharvest Email List:

Why?!
This email system is an attempt to make possible rapid communication
of researchers in the general area of postharvest research. 

Uses for the email:
- Job applications
- Announcements of conferences, courses, or whatever might be relevant
to folk 
- General discussion on pertinent topics, including the place of 
postharvest operations in sustainable agriculture and horticulture.  
Non-chemical disinfestation of crops is a strong interest.

What is it:
This is a list  which, when emailed,
automatically sends out your email to all on the list (including
yourself).

There are currently over 100 people on the list from a wide range of
countries, and its increasing all the time.

How to join (subscribe) to the list:
Email this address:
maiser@marc.cri.nz

with these words only in the body of the text:
subscribe postharvest

You will then receive a welcome message with further details (please
read and follow them).

If you have any questions/inquiries or problems, then feel free to
email me at AWoolf@hort.cri.nz.

I would encourage you to mention this facility to other researchers
who may be interested, both national and international as the more
people we can interact with, the better.

We look forward to hearing from you and hope that this system provides
a useful and stimulating forum for interaction and assistance.


Yours sincerely,

Allan Woolf

Postharvest and Market Access Science groups

HortResearch
Mt Albert Research Center
Private Bag 92 169
Auckland
New Zealand
Ph: 64-9-849-3660
Fax: 64-9-815-4239
Email: AWoolf@hort.cri.nz


Forwarded by:

************************
mcdonaldr@hort.cri.nz  <Rod McDonald>
Engineer/scientist, Horticulture and Food Research Institute
Private Bag 3123, Hamilton, New Zealand
Phone +64-7-8385675, Fax +64-7-8385655



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From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 15:30:01 1996
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Date: 11 Sep 96 13:24:13 EDT
From: jack rowe <75554.631@compuserve.com>
To: prmclt mailing list Aust <perma@eepo.com.au>
Cc: prmcult mailing lst NCSU <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: seed storage
Message-ID: <960911172413_75554.631_GHJ81-1@CompuServe.COM>
Status: O
X-Status: 

Re: the question on storing seeds in wet tropics:

Here are some notes sent to me by Pauline Mullins, director of an seed
preservation program in Texas, US. She first asked if these are indigenous
plants (which I assume they are not, since their seeds are rotting in the
natural environment), and if not, why not? She suggested the J. L. Hudson
catalog from California, US as a good resource for tropical plant seeds. Some of
her notes are general in nature:

--	Dont store [seeds] in airtight jars if they arent properly dried.
--	If seeds are dried, then rehydrated, then dried again, it lowers their
longevity and viability.
--	Keep seeds in the coolest area (near the floor).
--	Maybe [seeds] that have a high hard seed content would store well since
hard seed resist rehydration [seeds such as okra, some cowpeas (lots of legumes,
actually), etc. form seeds which are very slow to reabsorb moisture after they
have once been dried, an adaptation to dry conditions and so perhaps not overly
cogent in this context...JR].
--	[Seeds] with hard, shiny outsides seem to resist molding. Some of these
need scarification at planting time [nick seed coats on side away from
hilum...JR].
--	A way to dry the seeds might be to gently dry them (solar box cooker).
They would need to use thermometers to keep seeds from getting hotter than about
100 degrees F [50 C = 102 F]. They could then store in glass jars or tins.
--	They could find out what local plants have leaves or roots with
anti-fungal properties. For storing okra seeds, for instance, they could keep
them in their pods and layer in jars with the leaves or roots. Do they have any
eucalypts? This technique might also protect against insects. The anti-fungal
plants could be ground into powder for dusting, or used as a tea/dip after
initial cleaning of seeds before drying.

	Jack: Seeds should never be dried below 3% - 7% (depending on the seeds)
or raised over about 118 F (about 58 C) for long if they are to be used for
planting. Long-term seed viability increases as storage moisture content
decreases below 20%, down to the 3% - 7% mentioned, at which point vigor begins
to fall quickly. Seeds can absorb between 20% - 30% moisture in 90% humidity
(!). Viability = % of seeds which germinate, longevity = for how long; vigor
refers to the seedlings.

	Re: Dan H. -- Sea salt would probably work great, even ignoring its
Calcium chloride content, if dried thoroughly before use. If moisture could
reach the seeds in storage, however, salt would soak itself AND the seeds by
absorbing moisture from air...  ECHO -- an interesting organization, does some
neat stuff in the tropics, Russia (urban rooftop gardens on 6 of compost), etc.
They have a fairly considerable seed bank and will share with projects such as
the one described. 

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 16:05:38 1996
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From: Elfpermacl@aol.com
Received: by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA05359; Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:19:45 -0400
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 13:19:45 -0400
Message-ID: <960911131944_199233741@emout02.mail.aol.com>
To: permaext@magna.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Seed storage in wet tropics
Status: O
X-Status: 

It may be that you can't have it both ways.  You described the approach that
uses local materials and technology.  If you want to industrialize the
storage of seed (store larger quantities than appropriate scale for families
and communities) you may need to bring in some of the industrial technology.
 If you find appropriate methods, on the other hand, please let all of us
know!  This is important stuff that you are up to.

Silaca gel, definitely not a local material, and jars that seal, ditto, can
be made to work.  This is moderately low technology but still needs
importation.  This will keep seeds dry, which will kill some species--you
have to experiment or tell people which species you're working with.  It the
species doesn't have a dormant period, it may be best to preserve it as a
plant and not as seed.  You can use fire and/or sun to drive off moisture
when the silaca gel becomes saturated.  You can get silica gel that turns
color when charged with moisture, which is very helpful.

There may be natural materials that do the same thing.

You can also try making urns of the size required, and alternating layers of
wood ash and seed.  You can experiment with this on a small scale, of course.
 Sea salt, which these folks surely make, contains some calcium chloride
which works the same as silaca gel except that it goes into solution if it
gets too wet.  You can toast the sea salt over fire or concentrate solar
energy with a parabolic reflector (importing technological culture but not
necessarily materials) to drive off moisture (otherwise the CaCl2 will be
charged with water) and put a woven bag of this on top of the layers of ash
and seed.  The percentage of CaCl2 compared to NaCl is small, so you need a
few inches to have any effect at all.  Cover with more ashes, and seal with
whatever passes for wax or latex in the ecosystem.  All ecosystems with
vascular plants I've ever visited have latex species.  You also might include
leaves of local plants known to repel insects.

There probably are ways to include neem in such a strategy if you are willing
to import neem.  It may not produce much seed in your climate, but the leaves
are helpful.  Generally, if you can simulate drought stress, you have a good
chance for good seed crops.  There's a guy on the dry side of one of the
Hawaiian Islands that's working with neem at near sealevel conditions.  I've
done some permaculture design work on simulating drought conditions for
neem--we might be able to work something out.

I've observed that seaweeds seem to be deliquesent (suck up moisture).  It
may be worthwhile experimenting with dessicating local seaweeds and seeing if
they do this.

I've got out in the ether a proposal to form a network of tropical
PLANTATIONS, a Tree Bank is the term I coined, though it need not be limited
to trees.  The idea is that we get 20 or so places worldwide that are growing
reserves of species and varieties of useful plants in their area.  Exchange
is free among the cooperators.  If someone gets wiped out by a typhoon or
earthquake or war, everyon pitches in to replace what is lost.  The more
groups involved, the cheaper the insurance.  Regarding propagation and local
distribution of plant materials, that is best left to local culture and
conditions.  This will preserve species and varieties best.  

The time lag shouldn't be too severe.  Emergency food can be lots of
coconuts, which are pretty tough, and root crops, such as sweet potato, less
likely to be destroyed in catastrophe. Root crops that send up edible
vegetation, again e.g. sweet potato, would be particularly useful.

ECHO, Ft. Meyers, Florida USA, has some experience in storage of seeds in the
tropics.  I'll give you their email address: 
ECHO@xc.org .  They have a very  bountiful Web site at http://www.xc.org/echo
, but I do not recall any info on seed storage.  (I just downloaded
everything on it for a project we are involved with in Kenya and there was no
particularly helpful seed storage info.)  You can get Echo Development Notes
on disk and do a word search--probably there are tidbits on it.  You might
also check various tropical seed banks--get our database, TRIP (email for
details), if you don't have a list.

Finally, and I should have said this first, obviously you need to know the
natural history of the plant to get a fix on how best to store its seed.  You
have a shortcut in that you know the locals have already figured out species
that store by dessication, which is why I launched into that area first. 

Best of success in your important work.

For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since
1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses,
consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and The Forest Ecosystem
Food Network.  P.O. Box 2052, Ocala FL 34478-2052 USA.

"We don't have time to rush."

PS

I just found the below in my mail.  It may be useful, though you would
probably need to adapt anything that you learn.



xThe International Postharvest Email List:

>Why?!
This email system is an attempt to make possible rapid communication
of researchers in the general area of postharvest research. 

Uses for the email:
- Job applications
- Announcements of conferences, courses, or whatever might be relevant
to folk 
- General discussion on pertinent topics, including the place of 
postharvest operations in sustainable agriculture and horticulture.  
Non-chemical disinfestation of crops is a strong interest.

What is it:
This is a list  which, when emailed,
automatically sends out your email to all on the list (including
yourself).

There are currently over 100 people on the list from a wide range of
countries, and its increasing all the time.

How to join (subscribe) to the list:
Email this address:
maiser@marc.cri.nz

with these words only in the body of the text:
subscribe postharvest

You will then receive a welcome message with further details (please
read and follow them).

If you have any questions/inquiries or problems, then feel free to
email me at AWoolf@hort.cri.nz.

I would encourage you to mention this facility to other researchers
who may be interested, both national and international as the more
people we can interact with, the better.

We look forward to hearing from you and hope that this system provides
a useful and stimulating forum for interaction and assistance.


Yours sincerely,

Allan Woolf

Postharvest and Market Access Science groups

HortResearch
Mt Albert Research Center
Private Bag 92 169
Auckland
New Zealand
Ph: 64-9-849-3660
Fax: 64-9-815-4239
Email: AWoolf@hort.cri.nz



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 19:27:16 1996
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:22:14 -0800
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: farmcity@alternatives.com (FarmFolk/CityFolk)
Subject: colony farm
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Good news!
VanCity Envirofund has accepted our proposal for funding support for the
development of Community Gardens at Colony Farm in Coquitlam/PortCoquitlam.
The Envirofund selection committee met last week, and they had $80,000 to
divide up between four recipients, who received $20,000 each.
The four recipients are:
Us;
The Institute of Urban Ecology: "Greenlinks Project"
The Steelhead Society of BC: "Watershed Stewardship Project"
The St=F3: lo Nation: "St=F3: lo Nation Ethnobotanical Garden Project"
Congratulations to these other successful applicants. Note that the
Greenlinks project has representation on the Colony Farm Task Force.

The Timeline for the next few months of the project (as proposed, anyway) is

September-October 1996

community meetings, discussions
write & submit grant applications
communicate with Colony Farm Regional Park Task Force to develop guidelines =
for
        Association structure
door-to-door flyers to immediate area residents and posters throughout
community
        announcing community meetings, giving some plans
announcement and ads in community newspapers
hold community meetings in Mary Hill, Coquitlam to generate interest etc.

October - November 1996

develop data-base of interested people/organizations
develop organizational structure for Community Garden Society, with Colony F=
arm
        Regional Park Association
plan garden site, determine plot size, organic regulations, demonstration ar=
eas,
        community approach, membership fee
hold workshops on gardening, community building, permaculture, composting
=46orward detailed plan to GVRD for full approval

We will now be able to work out the details of the project, and make sure
we incorporate all the concerns and details that were passed on to us but
may not have made it into the final proposal. It's no longer a proposal,
but a plan! We look forward to working with permaculture network members on
this.
Wreford Miller & Rebecca Kneen



|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D=
|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|

                 FarmFolk/CityFolk Society
                  #208 - 2211 W. 4th Ave.
                  Vancouver, BC, V6K 4S2

                    ph. (604) 730-0450
                    fax (604) 730-0451

             e.mail: farmcity@alternatives.com
        http://www.alternatives.com/groups/farmfwho.htm

|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D=
|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|=3D|

               	"Eating is an agricultural act."
                              	-Wendell Berry


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Wed Sep 11 22:26:37 1996
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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:04:24 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr," <london@mercury.interpath.com>
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Organization: Venaura Farm
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http://ekolserv.vo.slu.se/Docs/www/Subject/Permaculture/150-199/161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_

-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr. - Venaura Farm - Chapel Hill, NC, USA
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:london@mercury.interpath.net  http://www.interpath.net/~london
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<HTML><header>L+<title>161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_</title></header><body><PRE>
Subject: Re: Masanuba Fukouka's Natural Farming??
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:21:12 GMT
From: bk720@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Carl Steen)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
To: sustag-public@amani.ces.ncsu.edu

Exactly, as the last poster points out, Fukuoka does not
want farmers from dawn to dusk, slaving away, quite the
opposite.
In fact, Fukuoka
and his system is similar to Permaculture.

I find permaculture to be fascinating, the designs and
ideas are some of the most original in any farming book.
The =spirit= is the most important: take nothing for granted
(especially not chemical farming!) and turn your plot of
land into a work of both art and nature.

On the more immediate side, I do have questions about the
time involved in =establishing= the self perpetuating farming
system, usually years.
The most practical farmers, out of necessity in history,
are described in Farmers of Forty Centuries, asian farmers
working often less than half an acre and feeding several
families year round, no chemicals, pigs and chickens and
carp ponds combined with
vegetable rotations that would (or should) impress NASA
space station designers.
</PRE></BODY></HTML>

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From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Sep 13 16:00:49 1996
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help

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Sep 13 20:32:32 1996
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From: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu (Steve Diver)
Subject: Re: Hydro Ram pumps and Duckbill Ram pumps
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 17:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
In-Reply-To: <m0utLCC-0000jdC@ncatfyv.uark.edu> from "Steve Diver" at Aug 21, 96 04:52:15 pm
Content-Type: text
Status: O
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An article in Cooperative Farmer (Southern States
cooperative), October-November 1993, featured the Rife Sling 
Pump.  It fits the description of a duckbill pump that I 
was looking for exactly.  Unfortunately, no address or 
phone number was listed. 
  
Selected text: 

"In tests the Rife Sling Pump has lifted water up to 82
feet, or delivered water over a mile from a stream." 

"It is completely mechanical and operates without
electricity or fuel.  The power to drive it is provided
by flowing water.  A wind-powered version is also
available."

"There is only one moving part, the swivel coupling, and it
is water-lubricated.  All parts are non-corrosive and
designed to withstand a high degree of stress. There is 
virtually no maintenance." 

"The sling pump is anchored with the supplied anchor wire to
a stake in the water.  The water flow rotates the pump body,
forcing air and water through the pump - via a swivel
coupling - into the feeder hose and from there either to an
intermediate storage tank or directly to the place of
consumption - in a pulsating flow. 

"Water pumped by the sling pump can be used for household 
needs, irrigation, ponds, and gardening.  It is especially 
useful in aerating stock tanks and fish tanks since it pumps
half water and half air."

FYI, here are the web sites with Ram Pump info: 

  http://www.grove.net/%7Eatlas/

  http://www.ecocentric.com/prof/eco/ram/html

  http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/ram_pump.htm

  http://info.lut.ac.uk/departments/cv/wedc/papers/thomas2.html 


Steve Diver wrote: 
 
> I found some web sites with hydro ram pumps, but I seem to 
> recall something in Permaculture International a few years
> back about a "duckbill" hydro ram pump.  
>
> My understanding of hydro rams are that they operate by 
> the fall of water (from a pond downwards), whereby the 
> ram pump can then push the water uphill.  It operates off the 
> force of gravity.  
> 
> The duckbill, as I recall, will work in a streambed and function 
> off of the lateral movement of water.  Thus, you could place
> a duckbill pump into a flowing steam and pump water uphill. 
>  
> This is different from a regular ram pump whereby a drop in water
> requires an elevation change and therefore the building of
> a dam in a streambed to achieve a change in height.  
> 
> A nearby remote watermelon/veggie patch in the Oklahoma Ozarks would 
> benefit from a duckbill and I need some info and a supplier. 
 

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Sep 13 22:19:32 1996
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Message-ID: <01BBA22A.A28B87C0@slwol1p08.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        "'Rob Squires/Gill Ellison'" <robgil@yesyou.u-net.com>
Subject: interLETS exchange
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:26:03 +-1000
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About international payments through LETS, 
we have a LETS system here comfortable with interLETS exchange.
This is an issue which I brought to our LETS bodies attention.  (Iwas concerned that
the international exchanges would defeat the primary aims of LETS and that
is to be a local currency.
I will be discussing it in Perth at the international conference.
Basically, our LETS accepts your currency and sends a letter of acceptance to your own body.
You may have to check with your own body if this is acceptable.
Your LETS body benefits from your commitment as you wrote, in that they get the energy injected
by your services, our Body already spends currency with other bodies Mainly for organic produce
from the nextdoor LETS body.  The only time I can see where this may come unstuck is when the richer
LETS body co-erces the indebted LETS body to repay in some way.  (seeing you are on LETs you
may like to join the discussion)

From tree-house-owner@pobox.com  Tue Jul 30 12:21:22 1996
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X-Sender: flora@navigator.smart.net
To: Community Forestry <Tree-House@List.Flora.Com>
cc: Jennifer Colquhoun <jcolqu10@scu.edu.au>
Subject: TH: interested in community supported permaculture/city farms (fwd)
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Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 18:01:06 +1000 (EST)
From: Jennifer Colquhoun <jcolqu10@scu.edu.au>
To: flora@flora.com
Subject: interested in community supported permaculture/city farms

 [Note: this letter arrived today from a student in Australia.  If anyone
 has a reply for her then please Cc: us & her address above.  Jennifer -
 we'd be happy to have you join our Tree-House email forum.  While we are 
 predominantly for tree-planting within human settlements (urban forestry),
 Permaculture issues are among our recurrent threads.  Simply email me your
 intentions & I'll sign you right up.  List operator: Richard@Flora.Com] ...

Hello there! 

I've been searching the Internet lately for any information on community
supported agriculture, (CSA) or any city farm projects that involve the
community in the organisation, the farming and the return. I am specifically
interested in organic, biodynamic and permaculture based farms designed for
a sustainable future in production. To fill you in a bit more on exactly
where I'm coming from, you might have already guessed  I am a student. I
attend Southern Cross University which is located in Lismore, Northern
N.S.W, Australia, six months from completing a Bachelor of Applied Science,
Conservation Technology. The only thing now that stands in my way is an
integrated research project. I have designed the project to cover issues
such as permaculture and its integration within the community and
alternative agricultural practices for a sustainable future. 

I have been in contact with the city farm in Lismore whos vision is to
operate a commercially viable and environmentally sustainable farm-based
enterprise drawing on community  and permaculture resources.

Anyway where you fit into all of this and the reason for which I write is to
request any information you could offer to a poor struggling student on any
of these topics. 

Your help would be much appreciated

Permaculturally yours,

Jennifer Colquhoun  

From piedmont  Wed Jul 31 09:57:44 1996
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:57:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Rainfall/cistern calculation - results (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960731095724.20155A-100000@calzone>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 15:19:53 -0700
From: Loren Davidson <loren@wombat.net>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Rainfall/cistern calculation - results

First, thanks to the various kind souls who sent me responses on this.  I
hope over time I'll be able to "give back" with contributions of my own.

I was asked by one list member to post any response I got.  I've received
two versions of this, one in English and one in metric terms, and I think
I'll quote both here.  (I haven't tested the metric one.)

>From Jeff Jacobsen in Washington state (US)(English measure):

>Here is what I do for my calculations:
> Roof size has to be the calculated equal to the ground area the roof
>covers.  Hence, do your measurements parallel to the ground; if you
>measure at an angle your result will be too high.  Determine area, i.e. 
>length x width.  Add all roofs or roof segments together to get your
>catchment area.  If you work in inches you won't have to worry about
>conversion. Include your gutters too, since they catch water too.
>
>Divide by 231, the number of cubic inches in a gallon.
>
>This gives you the number of gallons for one inch of rainfall.
>
>Mulitply by annual rainfall to get annual catchment.  

And from Murray Hopkins in Australia (Metric):

>  If you want to do the conversions, the metric formula is:
>
> 1 litre of water per 1 mm of rainfall per square metre of roof.
>
>(4.5 litres per gallon, 305 mm per foot, approx 39 inches per metre.)
>
>You then need to subtract a percentage for losses. This depends upon how 
>hot the roof is; how much water ends up in the gutters etc etc. 
>We work on about 10% here but thats very variable.

I also got some suggestions as to storage media, from stock tanks to 40 gal.
plastic barrels to ferrocement to pre-formed large plastic tanks (we've got
one already -- they're not cheap!).  We're leaning toward ferrocement at
this point, but with at least a year before we have the resources (time and
labor) to essay this, anything is still possible.

Again, thanks to those who wrote!

Loren
Loren Davidson
loren@wombat.net
http://www.batnet.com/beauty/
The First Amendment went too far.  It should have said, "Congress shall 
make no law".

From piedmont  Wed Jul 31 09:58:19 1996
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Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 09:58:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960731095748.20155B-100000@calzone>
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:42:03 -0600 (MDT)
From: Kathie Priebe <intellid@rainbow.rmii.com>
To: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
Cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE (fwd)


I notice that you mention in two different places that applicants must
include a photo with their application.  What is the reason for this
requirement?



On Tue, 30 Jul 1996, Lawrence F. London, Jr. wrote:

> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 07:02:11 -0400
> From: Intergalactic Garage <igg@intrepid.net>
> To: igg@intrepid.net
> Subject: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE
> 
> AolMail
> ARIZONA GARDEN/LANDSCAPE internships, 2-9 months, at TREE OF LIFE
> REJUVENATION CENTER.  Bio-Dynamic food production, landscaping,
> permaculture on high grasslands mesa of 166 acres in the southern
> mountains.  Spiritual lifestyle, team and service orientation.  Tent
> lodging and vegetarian meals provided.    
> Send resume, letter of interest, and photo to: 
> 
> Woody Wodraska 
> P.O. Box 32, 
> Patagonia, AZ 85624  
> (520) 394-2319
> 
> Tree of Life Rejuvenation Center
> P O Box 1080
> Patagonia, AZ  85624
> (520)-394-2319
> e-mail WWodraska@aol.com
> 
> 
> Bio-Dynamic Gardening in a Permaculture Context:
> Information on Internships
> 
> We're happy you inquired about garden training at Tree of Life
> Reju-venation Center.   The information we're sending will help you decide.
> If you remain interested after reading this, we will need the following
> from you to help us decide:
> 
> 	* A resume, if you have one;
> 	* A friendly letter, telling us how you heard about Tree of Life...
> about your life so far... with particular emphasis on how you came to see
> gardening as a top priority...any physical limitations you may have  (how's
> your back? your stamina? your general health?)... your present diet... what
> you hope to accomplish as a gardener... what your spiritual intentions may
> be... how it happens that you have a "slot" open in your life to undertake
> a serious period of  training;
> 
> 
> 	* A photo;
> 	* The times during which you can be available as an intern.
> 
> 			*   *   *
> 
> The Setting
> 
> 	Tree of Life Rejuvenation center is located at 4,200 feet
> elevation, just outside Patagonia, population 900, in southeastern Arizona.
> The vistas are grand from this table top mesa and plant and animal life are
> abundant--some 160 species of birds annually.  Your accommodations, along
> with other interns and visitor/voilunteers,  are  in 9' x 11'  tents on
> sturdy wooden decks situated in a sheltered, shaded canyon.
> 
> 	A great deal of work has been accomplished on the 166-acre property
> in the past three years.  A 1930s-era water diversion project has been
> returned to working order, to store cloudburst water in our pond; many
> swales, ditches,  berms , and catchments--all designed to direct, slow
> down, store, and utilize rainwater runoff--have been designed and
> constructed; a 100' diameter circular garden is in full production; a
> load-bearing strawbale building with kitchen/dining and treatment room has
> been built, along with a meditation temple; a small complex designed to
> house up to 16 people is nearly complete; roads, well, constructed wetland
> for wastewater, a shade structure for plant propagation, compost toilet,
> and more than 300 irrigated trees--for windbreaks, fruit, and wildlife
> habitat--have all been installed and are functioning.  Much of the
> Permaculture infrastructure is in place for a healing/teaching center with
> up to 40 guests at a time and almost as many staff.
> 
> 	This is high, semi-desert grassland and has been rangeland for 100
> years more or less.  Mesquite, an invader from Texas, is very well adapted
> and is the predominant plant species  on the property; we consider mesquite
> a resource rather than an invasive pest.  The Tree of Life mesa is
> relatively flat, somewhat sloping, and cut in places by deep, wide
> arroyos--mysterious, fertile ecosystems all their own, where oaks and
> manzanita predominate.
> 
> 	Yes, there are snakes here, some poisonous ones, and scorpions,
> tarantulas, and bugs.  There are many javilina and coyotes.  You want to
> walk and work wide awake.
> 
> The Life
> 
> 	We  are a service-oriented bunch here--in service to people and the
> planet.  In the agricultural realm, Bio-Dynamics has Earth healing as its
> fundamental intent.  Practitioners  can add to this core aim certain
> production goals: here during the next year we will be  gearing up to
> supply a large part of the diet for 20-30 people, year-round. It is our
> people-service to present to the chefs a wide variety of fresh, healthful,
> vital produce--produce vibrating with built-in Bio-Dynamic nutrition.  We
> do this while acting as stewards for the garden soil,  water, the compost,
> and the surrounding landscape.
> 
> 	Meditation... a relatively simple, conscious-consumption kind of
> lifestyle...
> vegetarianism... service... harmlessness as much as possible to all living
> things ... personal integrity... these are values we would like to share
> with you.  If you come to be here with us, we'll expect you to share
> yourself with us and the rest of the Universe  at most of our sunrise and
> sunset meditations.  We'd also like to have your heartfelt presence and
> participation in staff meetings.
> 
> The Work
>     We ask 35 hours work each week from interns; often, 7-hour-days  are
> split, with a long siesta time in the middle.  Three and a half of those
> hours will be classroom time--though that weekly teaching/learning session
> will most likely happen under a Grandfather mesquite or oak.  The other
> nine-tenths of your work week will be hands-on gardening.  We hope it will
> not come as a complete surprise to you that about two-thirds of gardening
> is materials handling--soil, compost, irrigation hose, strawbales, potting
> mix...these are all HEAVY, and one spends a lot of energy moving
> barrowloads from place to place.  The other one-third of gardening work is
> BORING: endless tiny transplants to go in the ground; endless weeds;
> endless strawberries to pick (!);  endless pruning... endless... endless.
> 
> 	The good news is that there is genuine joy associated with all
> this, joy and fascination, amusement and bemusement.  The spiritual path
> that is gardening is a rollicking one.  Life is exhuberant, not solemn.
> The garden is ever-changing, with unexpectednesses cropping up anywhere at
> all.  Co-creation with the Nature Spirits is an adventuresome,
> unpredictable affair and we will participate with grace.
> 
> Tree of Life Garden Instructor--
> Woody Wodraska
> 
> 	Woody started drawing circles on the U. S. map the other day, and
> ended up with 15 circles in 13 states, places where he's done major
> gardening projects--from New Hampshire to Florida to Oregon to Arizona.
> 
> 	His basic training in gardening was in the early 1980s at Kimberton
> Hills Camphill Village, Kimberton, PA, four years of increasing
> responsibility in food production for a village of 120 people.  Camphill
> Kimberton is one of the few U.S. sites where comprehensive training in
> Bio-Dynamic agriculture is available.  Woody went on from Camphill to
> establish a smallholding in Illinois and to organize the first Community
> Supported Agriculture project in the Midwest, in 1988; he then became
> volunteer gardener and member at the Temple-Wilton Community Farm in New
> Hampshire; and, before coming to Tree of Life, spent  three seasons running
> a guest ranch garden and greenhouse at 6,800 feet elevation in Montana.
> 
> 	Woody has started half a dozen gardens from scratch, improved half
> a dozen others, built greenhouses and coldframes and chicken tractors, and
> constructed many compost piles.  He's worked in dairy barns, commercial
> nursery operations, backyard gardens, commercial gardens, community
> gardens.  He says:
> 
> 	"Gardening is my life, the one thing--the only thing--I've
> consistenly been passionate about all these many years..."
> 
> What Is Bio-Dynamics?
> 
> 	A copy of Sherry Wildfeuer's article with this title, appearing in
> the 1996 issue of STELLA*NATURA, The Kimberton Hills Agricultural Calendar,
> is attached. Note that the first of the basic principles she mentions is
> Broaden Your Perspective.  Bio-Dynamic practice is intense; it requires
> openness of mind and perspective and heart.  And note the statement,
> "Biodynamics focuses on the quality of the food.  It recognizes a direct
> connection between the quality of food and not only human health, but also
> human consciousness."
> (note: This article is avail at www.his.com/~claymont/bda.html
> 
> More About Our Internships
> 
> 	Duration:  Minimum 2 months  (though we often have visitor/volunteers
> 
> 	Meals:  Ours is a vegan kitchen, no animal products at all, with an
> ]emphasis on 80% raw and living foods.  Breakfast and lunch  are prepared 5
> days; other times the kitchen is available to staff  ]and plenty of fresh
> organic foods are on hand.
> 
> ===========================================================================
> 
> Check out the Biodynamic Association WEB PAGE:
>       www.his.com/~claymont/bda.html
> 
> To Subscribe to the BioDynamic mailing list:
>       Send Mail to igg@his.com with "Subscribe BD-L" in the Subject
>       and your FULL NAME and PHYSICAL MAILING address in the body.
> 
> To UnSubscribe from the BioDynamic mailing list:
>       Send Mail to igg@his.com with "Subscribe BD-L" in the Subject
> 
> The 1996 Mid-Atlantic Biodynamic Conference is Scheduled for Oct 4-5
>       at Claymont Courts, Charlestown, WV.
> 
>       Tentatively Scheduled speakers are Bruce Blevins (BD Market
> Gardening),
>       James A. Duke (Herbs), Dr Peter Hinderberger (anthroposophic medicine),
>       Jim Marquardt (BD Orchard work); Woody Wodruska (Subtle Forces in the
>       Greenhouse: Flow forms, Agnehothra, etc) Speakers and Workship leaders
>       are still being sought.
> 
>        Located 30 minutes from Dulles, 15 minutes from Amtrak, an hour
>        from Baltimore-Washington in the Beautiful Shenandoah Valley
> 
>        BD Meals will be served.
> 
>        Lodging and camping are available. More information: 304 876-2373
> 
> 

From piedmont@president.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  1 18:35:36 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:31:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:55:40 -0400
From: Carl Steen <bk720@freenet.carleton.ca>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: ARIZONA BD INTERNSHIP AVAILABLE (fwd)

I agree with Kathie Priebe in raising the question of why
Wodraska is asking for a photo for his interns.
The rest of the description sounds very interesting and
creative.
But the photo request hints at a bias which should at
the very least be explained.
Carl Steen

From piedmont@president.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  1 18:56:05 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:52:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Purpose of this list? (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 17:27:28 +0200
From: Petrus J. Saaiman <SaaimanP@sabc.co.za>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Purpose of this list?

Hi,

Has anyone got a description of the aims and objects of this list? 

Keep it perma-nent!

Petrus

From piedmont@president.oit.unc.edu  Thu Aug  1 18:57:38 1996
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Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:53:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Oops! Abundant Life Seed Foundation (fwd)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:30:43 PDT
From: Jennifer Peltier <peltier@isi.edu>
To: Michael Yount <yount@csf.colorado.edu>
Cc: peltier@isi.edu, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Oops! Abundant Life Seed Foundation 


> Sorry everybody...meant to remove that Cc: line.
> 
> Abundant Life's pages are at 
> 	http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/abundant/
> 
> If any of you could point me in the direction of seed saving
> resources, electronic or otherwise, I'd be obliged.
> As fewer varieties of plants are grown out each year, parts
> of our "permanent culture" or indigenous knowledge are disappearing.
> This strikes me as something all of us have in common, since
> the seeds represent, inter alia, the tools of our designs.
> Does this strike a chord with any of you?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael
> yount@csf.colorado.edu

Hi Michael,

Here are some resources I know of:

Seeds of Change.  
http://www.seedsofchange.com/

I frequently buy these seeds.  I get healthy plants that usually stay
disease free compared to any hybrids in the garden.  These are
open-pollinated, organic seeds.  I am not sure if they do seed saving,
but the catalogue is packed full of ideas and they have volunteer
opps. on their organic farm where they raise seeds.


Santa Barbara Heirloom Seedling Nursery 

http://www.heirloom.com/heirloom/

I hear from friends that this is a great resource.  


Seed Savers Exchange 

Kent Whealy, Director
Rural Route 3, Box 239
Decorah, Iowa 52101

from the web side:

http://www.gaia.org/ic/fic/cdir/res/SeedSavers.html

The Seed Savers Exchange is a network of mostly small-scale growers
and gardeners dedicated to preserving our heritage of
open-pollinated heirloom vegetables, fruits, and nuts. The network's
underlying purpose is to protect the genetic diversity of our food
crops. The SSE's yearbook, published each January, lists varieties
that have been saved...then members exchange and grow each other's
seeds. Three other valuable references works produced by SSE are
Garden Seed Inventory (a complete list of all commercially available
non-hybrid vegetable seeds); Fruit, Berry, and Nut Inventory; and Seed
to Seed (detailing seed-saving techniques for the vegetable
gardener). Write to receive a four-page color brochure detailing SSE's
projects and publications, enclosing $1 with your request. 7/1/92

I hope this helps,

Take care, Jennifer

From london@mercury.interpath.com  Mon Aug  5 11:35:17 1996
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Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 10:38:35 -0400
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr," <london@mercury.interpath.com>
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Organization: Venaura Farm
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-- 
Lawrence F. London, Jr. - Venaura Farm - Chapel Hill, NC, USA
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu  http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london
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<H1>permaculture/susag workshops</H1>
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<LI>
<em>To</em>: <A HREF="mailto:sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu">sanet-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu</A> 
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<em>Subject</em>: permaculture/susag workshops 
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<em>From</em>: <A HREF="mailto:dragon@mail.islandnet.com">dragon@mail.islandnet.com</A> (lischeron) 
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<em>Date</em>: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 20:51:43 -0800 
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<PRE>
Hello Everyone,

Before you all run away for your vacations, I'd like to let you know about
a few courses happening here on the coast in September -  especially if
you've an interest in or  curiosity about Permaculture........ have a
wonderful summer!

Beth Lischeron

Malaspina University College Cowichan Campus offers Courses in Sustainable
Agriculture and Organic Gardening

Based on his extensive experience as an organic farmer and permaculture
designer, Island Permaculture Foundation  director Stuart Stillie will
share his knowledge of sustainable agriculture systems and their
implimentation in two courses being offered by  Malaspina University
College this autumn. In addition, a Permaculture Introductory Weekend will
take place on Salt Spring Island in mid-September.

* Agricultural Sustainability for the Twenty-First Century
Certificate Program

Malaspina University College is offering a 120 hour non-credit, part-time
certificate program in Agricultural Sustainability over two semesters
starting September 24th, 1996. The program will provide examples of
existing sustainable projects, as well as a functional framework, guidance
and hands-on activities geared toward achieving agricultural and
horticultural systems which are self-sustaining, resource-conserving,
energy efficient and economically viable.

The course will benifit farmers, landowners, home gardeners and all those
directly concerned about the quality of our food and the environment.
Landscape designers, ecologists and municipal planners will also find much
of practical value in both course material and field trips.

An information session will take place at Malaspina from 7 - 8.30 pm on
Tuesday 17th September - all are welcome, but please pre-register by
calling Malaspina @ 1-604-746-3519.

*************************************

* Organic Gardening: Growing Nature's  Way

Learn about the fundamental techniques and strategies of organic growing -
how to work as closely as possible with nature to create a healthy,
balanced environment in your garden or yard - from vegetable production to
flower growing. A Saturday field trip is also included. The course will run
for 5 sessions from October 24th - November 21st. Please call Malaspina @
1-604-746-3519 for more information.

**************************************

* Common Good Permaculture *
presents an Introduction to Permaculture Weekend
* Patterns of Sustainability *

Permaculture is a consciously designed, holistic system of land use which
can be applied in any context or on any scale from urban backyard to farm
or forest. Permaculture is concerned with all the elements in a system and
their placement in a mutually benificial and cooperative pattern. Using
nature as a template, Permaculture seeks to mimic the energy flows, cycles
and inter-relationships which occur in an intact ecosystem to create
dynamic stability and abundance.

The Patterns of Sustainability workshop will take place on Saltspring
Island at Gaia's Ark Farm, a stunning 55 acre site just north of the town
of Ganges. Gaia's Ark Farm is the home of Sheri Berkowitz and Jim Proctor,
who were drawn to Permaculture from backgrounds in human nutrition, yoga
and organic gardening. They completed the Permaculture Consultant's Design
Course in Australia in 1995. The farm encompasses a variety of
microclimates from forest to pasture, orchards and human settlements. The
site will support participants' experience, exploration and discussion of
how the many components of a natural system interact from a Permaculture
perspective.

Scottish organic farmer and Permaculture designer, Stuart Stillie will lead
the workshop with the support of Jim and Sheri. Stuart spent ten years
running a traditional Scottish croft before completing the Permaculture
Design Course at the Worcester College of Agriculture in 1992. He has since
visited Permaculture projects from NZ to Scandinavia and Japan, spending
the past two years creating a Permaculture plan for the Plati Biodiversity
Sanctuary in Ariege, France.

The workshop will explore * Principles of Permaculture *
* Broadscale Site Design *
* The House &amp; Home Garden * Tree Crops &amp; Food Forests *
* Urban &amp; Community Strategies *

* Workshop Dates *
Friday 13th Sept. 7 pm through Sunday 15th Sept. 4 pm.

Cost: CDN $275.00 per person, CDN $500.00 per couple. Workshop Fees include
16 hours of instruction, six meals and on-site camping (Bed &amp; Breakfast can
be arranged). Please call Island Permaculture Foundation @ 604-743-1810 or
fax 604-743-6712 for more details or to register. Book early as space is
very limited.


for information on any of the above, please contact:
Island Permaculture Foundation
3500 Telegraph Road Cobble Hill
British Columbia V0R 1L0
p: 604-743-1810 fax: 604-743-6712
e-amil: Dragon@mail.islandnet.com


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From london@mercury.interpath.com  Mon Aug  5 11:37:08 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:37:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lawrence London - Personal Account <london@mercury.interpath.com>
To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: Re: Newsgroup (fwd)
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: Venaura Farm - Organic Market Vegetable Gardens - CSA
: Organic Gardening/Urban-Rural Permaculture Information Resources
: http://www.interpath.net/~london - london@mercury.interpath.net
: http://sunsite.unc.edu/london - london@sunsite.unc.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 21:37:51 +0200
From: Thilo Pfennig <Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>
To: london@mercury.interpath.com
Subject: Re: Newsgroup

>
>I was thinking of forming alt.agriculture.permaculture as part of the
>alt.agriculture.* (misc, fruit, alt.sustainable.agriculture)
>"heirarchy". If someone will write a statement of purpose I will
>post this to alt.config and other groups for discussion then ask my
>newsadmin to form and propagate this new newsgroup.

I thaught about something like this:
(reformat it how you like it best)


We want to start a new newsgroup for Permaculture
<URL:news:alt.agriculture.permaculture>



What is permaculture?

        The word "permaculture" was coined in 1978 by Bill Mollison, an
        Australian ecologist, and his student, David Holmgren. It is a
        contraction of "permanent agriculture" or "permanent culture."

        Permaculture is about designing ecological human habitats and
        food production systems. It is an approach to land use which
        integrates human dwellings, microclimate, annual and perennial
        plants, animals, soils, and water management into stable,
        productive communities.

        A central theme in permaculture is the design of ecological
        landscapes that produce food. Emphasis is placed on multi-use
        plants and the integration of animals to recycle nutrients and
        graze weeds. However, permaculture entails much more than just
        food production. Permaculture design concepts are being applied
        in urban as well as rural settings, and are applicable to single
        households or whole farms and villages.

        "Integrated farming" and "ecological engineering" are terms
        sometimes used to describe permaculture. Though helpful, these
        terms do not capture the holistic nature of permaculture and
        thus the following definitions are included to provide insight.

(from The Permaculture FAQ by Steve Diver, <URL:mailto:steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu>)

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>



From london@president.oit.unc.edu  Mon Aug  5 11:46:17 1996
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Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 11:42:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Larry London <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
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To: london@sunsite.unc.edu
Subject: msg00103.html
Status: RO
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     _________________________________________________________________
   
   [Prev][Next][Index][Thread]
   
                           RE: PURPOSE OF THIS LIST?
                                       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * To: "Petrus J. Saaiman" <SaaimanP@sabc.co.za>
     * Subject: Re: Purpose of this list?
     * From: Piedmont Communities Online <piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu>
     * Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:51:42 -0400 (EDT)
     * cc: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
     * In-Reply-To: <199608011527.RAA14231@rhino.sabc.co.za>
       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   

-
Piedmont Communities Online
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/piedmont
mailto:piedmont@sunsite.unc.edu
-
On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, Petrus J. Saaiman wrote:

> Has anyone got a description of the aims and objects of this list?

> Keep it perma-nent!

Permaculture-mg mailing list provides aspiring and practicing permaculturists
with a forum they can use to promote the uses and development of
permaculture systems on a global scale as well as a place to exchange ideas
and resources amongst themselves and with others knowledgeable in sciences
such as biology and agriculture. It serves also as medium for information
exchange with practioners, professionals and scientists involved in
landscaping, construction, renewable energy, sustainable community
development, appropriate technology and many other fields.

Lawrence London
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html
mailto:piedmont@sunSITE.unc.edu
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/piedmont

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   References:
     * Purpose of this list?
          + From: SaaimanP@sabc.co.za (Petrus J. Saaiman)
            
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
     * Prev: Re: Oops! Abundant Life Seed Foundation
     * Next: Re: Oops! Abundant Life Seed Foundation (fwd)
     * Index(es):
          + Main
          + Thread

From tree-house-owner@pobox.com  Thu Aug 15 13:04:49 1996
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Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:52:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "FloraList Operations (Richard)" <flora@Flora.Com>
X-Sender: flora@navigator.smart.net
To: Community Forestry <Tree-House@List.Flora.Com>
Subject: TH: Wanted - EcoLists
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.960815122603.16864B-100000@navigator.smart.net>
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Status: RO
X-Status: 

 Greenings All -

 I've been working on our 'USStates' web-page which
 now lists all US State Trees, and which ones of
 those are also US Champion Trees (like here in
 Maryland, where we are home to the World-Champion
 White Oak -- 'Quercus alba' -- which is also our official
 State Tree).  "http://www.flora.com/tree-house/usstates.htm"

 I'm now trying to compile a comprehensive directory
 of all 'EcoLists' -- discussion lists which emphasize
 ecological issues.  Any help would be gratefully
 appreciated, including WWW-sites and subscription info.

 Could someone kindly provide particulars on the Permaculture
 lists, thanx?  Reply either to TH, or off-list to:

 R Tryzno Ellsberry
 Richard@Flora.Com                | Repent for your sins!
 List Operator for Tree-House     | Plant a tree today!
 Baltimore / USDA Zone 7

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Fri Sep 13 22:49:36 1996
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Message-ID: <01BBA22A.BAB57180@slwol1p08.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        "'stephen dwyer'" <smd@wdc.net>
Subject: RE: web limits and world poverty
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:49:42 +-1000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: O
X-Status: 


Hi ya steve, long time no talk, I have come to realise that
I  can't deal with the amount of the market that we have already!!
and I realise those that really need help don't have the net - however,
Those people in need are a hell of a lot more willing and are easier to teach!!!

I still get visits from people with the perfect look (acoubra, flannel shirt, blundies)
and have a mobile phone hidden in the pocket!!
I get grilled and treated like I'm trying to sell them something!! E.g. they 
say "but doesn't that"  "but don't you have to" ..
."the last visitor simply didn't belive that the vegies and shrubs were in mulch
and started to poke holes in it looking for soil"!! 
I know it would be easier to run oversease to our Indian project 
(though my belly doesn't agree) 
But here we are, on the frontier Steve, where the face of Permaculture has to
bare the storms of commercialism.
April

>Yes the web has a limited market.  and we won't reach people who are
>really in need of solutions on sustainable production in third world countries
  <snip>
>We're also contacts for a community garden/ city farm network covering 
>most of the country. So, we're eager to learn what other groups are 
>doing.Thanks...
..Russ Grayson
  PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
>Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
>PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

>Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
>Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
>	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
>Email: permaext@magna.com.au

>Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
>NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

  Dear Russ,
  I have put up a website that you may  find useful, it's at:
   http://www.wdc.net/~smd/agcult.htm
   be sure to download         /agseed.htm pages of seeds
  Hope you can put this info to good use.  E-mail me any
  questions or comments or links. I'm still looking for more
  Au links for these pages. I also have another page you
  may like at:   /river.htm    just add some Au trees to it!
  Sincerely,
  Steve
  smd@wdc.net







From piedmont  Fri Sep 13 22:49:42 1996
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Message-ID: <01BBA22A.BAB57180@slwol1p08.ozemail.com.au>
From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>,
        "'stephen dwyer'" <smd@wdc.net>
Subject: RE: web limits and world poverty
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:49:42 +-1000
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Status: RO
X-Status: 


Hi ya steve, long time no talk, I have come to realise that
I  can't deal with the amount of the market that we have already!!
and I realise those that really need help don't have the net - however,
Those people in need are a hell of a lot more willing and are easier to teach!!!

I still get visits from people with the perfect look (acoubra, flannel shirt, blundies)
and have a mobile phone hidden in the pocket!!
I get grilled and treated like I'm trying to sell them something!! E.g. they 
say "but doesn't that"  "but don't you have to" ..
."the last visitor simply didn't belive that the vegies and shrubs were in mulch
and started to poke holes in it looking for soil"!! 
I know it would be easier to run oversease to our Indian project 
(though my belly doesn't agree) 
But here we are, on the frontier Steve, where the face of Permaculture has to
bare the storms of commercialism.
April

>Yes the web has a limited market.  and we won't reach people who are
>really in need of solutions on sustainable production in third world countries
  <snip>
>We're also contacts for a community garden/ city farm network covering 
>most of the country. So, we're eager to learn what other groups are 
>doing.Thanks...
..Russ Grayson
  PERMACULTURE EXTENSION SERVICES
>Russ Grayson and Fiona Campbell
>PO Box 446, Kogarah NSW 2217 AUSTRALIA

>Phone	02-9588 6931	(IDD-61+2+9588 6931)
>Fax 	02 330 2611 (Mark fax: ATTN: RUSS GRAYSON - APACE) 
>	(IDD-61+2+330 2611)
>Email: permaext@magna.com.au

>Permaculture education, publishing, design. 
>NSW co-ordinator, Australian City Farms and Gardens Network.

  Dear Russ,
  I have put up a website that you may  find useful, it's at:
   http://www.wdc.net/~smd/agcult.htm
   be sure to download         /agseed.htm pages of seeds
  Hope you can put this info to good use.  E-mail me any
  questions or comments or links. I'm still looking for more
  Au links for these pages. I also have another page you
  may like at:   /river.htm    just add some Au trees to it!
  Sincerely,
  Steve
  smd@wdc.net







From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Sep 14 02:24:49 1996
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:57:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@president.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
In-Reply-To: <01BB946C.677DD820@slwol1p23.ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960913223236.4749A-100000@president.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: RO
X-Status: 

:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu - 
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html 
:
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> On the whole, I have been really heartened by the depth of 
> understanding by most of the respondents
> to my search for others with experience of loss of 
> peace in the field of permaculture promotion
> [Obviously some people have not yet understood that
> permaculture is about culture and not a series of gardening
> tips - this resulted in some rude messages about my filling
> cyberspace with personal dilema's!!!  They have threatened to
> leave the mailing list - what luck.]

Years ago I had this mailing list, permaculture-mg, started by
the good folks at North Carolina Cooperative Extension at NCSU;
It was my intenion and hope that permies around the globe would use it
any way they saw fit and felt comfortable with. I see that you have.
Carry On!
Those who have a problem with that can unsubscribe or start their own 
list or newsgroup.

BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the 
Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a 
standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few 
newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future. 
You will be able to access it from my permaculture homepage (the URL for
that newsgroup will force your news reader to access our server) or simply
point your news reader software to our server & pick it up there.
I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers 
and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.  

From piedmont  Sat Sep 14 02:24:56 1996
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Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 22:57:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." <london@sunsite.unc.edu>
X-Sender: london@president.oit.unc.edu
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
In-Reply-To: <01BB946C.677DD820@slwol1p23.ozemail.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960913223236.4749A-100000@president.oit.unc.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: RO
X-Status: 

:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu - 
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html 
:
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> On the whole, I have been really heartened by the depth of 
> understanding by most of the respondents
> to my search for others with experience of loss of 
> peace in the field of permaculture promotion
> [Obviously some people have not yet understood that
> permaculture is about culture and not a series of gardening
> tips - this resulted in some rude messages about my filling
> cyberspace with personal dilema's!!!  They have threatened to
> leave the mailing list - what luck.]

Years ago I had this mailing list, permaculture-mg, started by
the good folks at North Carolina Cooperative Extension at NCSU;
It was my intenion and hope that permies around the globe would use it
any way they saw fit and felt comfortable with. I see that you have.
Carry On!
Those who have a problem with that can unsubscribe or start their own 
list or newsgroup.

BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the 
Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a 
standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few 
newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future. 
You will be able to access it from my permaculture homepage (the URL for
that newsgroup will force your news reader to access our server) or simply
point your news reader software to our server & pick it up there.
I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers 
and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.  

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Sep 14 11:19:44 1996
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA11043; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 11:19:44 -0400 (EDT)
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Message-Id: <v02140b06ae60288188ba@[194.64.167.151]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:51:05 +0200
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Status: O
X-Status: 


>BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the
>Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a
>standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few
>newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future.

Lawrence I still have my hierarchy own.* with own.eco.permaculture and
own.eco.lets that should be available via UUnet. Maybe we can use that? I
had many problems distributing this and it is now really *empty*.


(OWN <URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/own.html>
means One World Net, a project of my own, which I use to help people in
networking and communication (BODHI = Buddhist Organsization in Australia,
AFRONETZ = German Africans , my buddhist friends anyway,etc.) Until now
there are only a view things happening (including some contacts to
Cambodia) - I do this all on my own (Mac ;) ). But I see that one man can
do many things to provide information and to help taht things get going.

>I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
>Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers
>and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.

Maybe we can make a link from your newsserver to one here in Germany - and
than from sunsite to an university of interest in Australia (and so on)?

What is own.* now:

own.admin               One World Net News-Administration
own.eco.lets            Local Exchange Trading Systems
own.eco.permaculture    Permanent (Agri)culture
own.general             general discussion about the "One World Net"
own.health.bach_flowers Dr.Edward Bachs Flower
own.health.homoeopathy  Samuel Hahnemann's System
own.health.reiki        Dr.Usui's System
own.test                Just testing
own.tibet.wtn           World Tibet News <wtn-editors@utcc.utoronto.ca>


(Eco stands for economy *and* ecology, which I found best as a
sub-hierarchy for Permaculture and LETS)

What do you think?

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>


From piedmont  Sat Sep 14 11:19:50 1996
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Message-Id: <v02140b06ae60288188ba@[194.64.167.151]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:51:05 +0200
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
From: Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de (Thilo Pfennig)
Subject: Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Status: O
X-Status: 


>BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the
>Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a
>standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few
>newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future.

Lawrence I still have my hierarchy own.* with own.eco.permaculture and
own.eco.lets that should be available via UUnet. Maybe we can use that? I
had many problems distributing this and it is now really *empty*.


(OWN <URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/own.html>
means One World Net, a project of my own, which I use to help people in
networking and communication (BODHI = Buddhist Organsization in Australia,
AFRONETZ = German Africans , my buddhist friends anyway,etc.) Until now
there are only a view things happening (including some contacts to
Cambodia) - I do this all on my own (Mac ;) ). But I see that one man can
do many things to provide information and to help taht things get going.

>I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
>Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers
>and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.

Maybe we can make a link from your newsserver to one here in Germany - and
than from sunsite to an university of interest in Australia (and so on)?

What is own.* now:

own.admin               One World Net News-Administration
own.eco.lets            Local Exchange Trading Systems
own.eco.permaculture    Permanent (Agri)culture
own.general             general discussion about the "One World Net"
own.health.bach_flowers Dr.Edward Bachs Flower
own.health.homoeopathy  Samuel Hahnemann's System
own.health.reiki        Dr.Usui's System
own.test                Just testing
own.tibet.wtn           World Tibet News <wtn-editors@utcc.utoronto.ca>


(Eco stands for economy *and* ecology, which I found best as a
sub-hierarchy for Permaculture and LETS)

What do you think?

--
<URL:http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/homes/Thilo.Pfennig/thilo.html>
<URL:mailto:Thilo.Pfennig@kiel.netsurf.de>


From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sat Sep 14 17:25:18 1996
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17079; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:25:17 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Milogic@aol.com
Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00280; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:02:43 -0400
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:02:43 -0400
Message-ID: <960914140241_478659147@emout12.mail.aol.com>
To: RRao@idrc.ca
cc: bamboo@housing.ucsc.edu, rbala@ncatfyv.uark.edu, steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu,
        askpv@ozemail.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        susag.permaculture@nf.apc.org,
        ruraldev%ksuvm.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu
Subject: Bamboo publications
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rama,

In response to your inquiry about the proposed bamboo identification manual
which we hope INBAR will spearhead: some tentative thoughts--

A major task for the world bamboo communities is to develop appropriate
infrastructure to support the long processes which will put bamboo more
strongly into local and, perhaps, world resource calculations. As with any
resource, immense work is involved. Look how many years it took to develop
that gooey black ooze into petrochemicals--not that that particular
development process is a meaningful model for bamboo.

The history of the Philippines, common to nearly all nations colonized by
western imperialists, shows almost 500 years during which the pre-existing
norms were ripped out and displaced by the conquering western cultures. Those
processes may now be coming to some logical conclusions thereby opening more
possibilites for past and present locally-based ways to influence a better
future. 

I hope that developing bamboo as a more widely used resource will consist
more of adapting local processes to contemporary local needs than
substitutions within primarily western-oriented or export products for now
depleted other resources such as wood.

It is within this context that the recent First National Conference on Bamboo
in the Philippines acquires added significance in my view. I note that this
conference was an outgrowth of the Bali World Bamboo Congress in 1995. We,
individually and collectively, are building and expanding on the work done by
INBAR and the other bamboo organizations.

The existence of a dynamically expanding set of related format
INBAR-sponsored publications or manuals would be a significant step in the
direction of determining and then actualizing the potential of bamboo as a
contemporary resource. A first effort naturally would be some sort of
identification manual. I would hope that the manual developed will break the
bonds of purely scientific or taxonomic considerations. I would hope that the
listing and depiction of each identified bamboo would also include listing
and depiction of uses and utliizations of that bamboo as they are known and
naming where, the specific areas, within which that use is known.

>From western perspectives, we also have works such as the University of
Stuttgart's IL31 within which considerable detail is available on bamboo
utilizations, albeit primarily archetectural. A volume belongs in the bamboo
set which collects the archetectural and building experiences in Colombia,
Costa Rica, the Philippines, Indonesia, India, China and elsewhere both west
and east where bamboo is being used effectively in today's terms. Another
volume which concentrated on the myriad utilitarian uses of bamboo as tools
and aids to living is sugggested. Still another which focuses on arts and
crafts uses would be appreciated. A fine arts history and appreciation of the
highest artistic and spiritual contexts for bamboo would cap such as set or
series.

Probably optimal publications would incorporate the heart of David Farrelly's
work, the pragmatics of one like "Joe" Caasi of the Philippines and the
academic details of the taxonomists all rolled up into physically tough
handbooks for workshop, laboratory, home and field. A tall order and one
which bamboo fully merits.

As Richard Waters, American Bamboo Society chair on arts and crafts, likes to
point out, "Bamboo is more than just a plant." Of course, one major
difficulty here in the US and to differing degrees elsewhere is availability
of bamboo to use and to utilize. People like Simon Henderson and Daphne Lewis
of Bamboo People in Washington state along with an expanding number of others
who are involved in larger scale growing of bamboo are exemplars moving to
increase supply, to advance practical knowledge and to provide training. The
pragmatic Joe Caasi's of the bamboo world need as much or more coverage than
the more academic approaches. Establishing a regenerating and diverse supply
of bamboos adequate for projected demands is as necessary as understanding
tensile strength and other important technical issues. 

All of the bamboo advancement processes are of the systems nature of
"both/and" and "and/and"; that is, complementary, inclusive and open. We are
all parts of the global system expanding feedback loops and thereby
participating in important aspects of rebalancing the planet. Bamboo is a
prime example of the negentropic or anti-entropic qualities available in
nature. Working to understand, to expand and to actualize those natural
qualities is a challenge worthy of poet and pragmatist.

The pragmatics of a publication challenge such as a manual or set of manuals
focusing on 1) identification/taxonomy; 2) pragmatics of growing bamboo and
3) uses and utilizations of bamboo are immensely complex. For example,
Richard Waters is advocating expanding the ABS Source List to include
suitable uses for each particular bamboo and then to add in the sources
section the names of people and companies who are using them or have cut
culms or pieces of that particular bamboo for sale. I hear rumors and get
snatches of tantilizing information about bamboo efforts in Australia and
other countries which merit some kind of followup beyond my resources. To
have references related to supplies of particular bamboos being developed for
particular uses in distant places would be a significant inclusion for a
basic manual.

To begin dealing with the pragmatics, I would advocate designing a strategy
for the publishing program in terms of end-users. Part of that strategic
design is identifying audiences both apparent and peripheral to the stated
purposes of the publications--which I would see ever expanding in scope
myself. The collected database would then have multiple uses and spread the
expenses across more publications. The entire effort would necessarily be
seen as on-going with expansions, new editions and widening audience
possibilities all focusing on bamboo as more than just a plant.

The narrower the enduser definitions, the narrower the possibilities for
securing financial as well as other participation. For example, given the
popularity of David Farrelly's book, now in second printing, a broader based
strategic concept or vision, if you will, involving a set of publications on
bamboo may be more likely to attract a publisher's advance funding. Another
possibility is to attract other forms of advances in terms of 1) equity
participation in a for-profit publishing venture to which INBAR and others
involved would be contractors, 2) grant funding from private or NGO
organizations or 3) governmental participation in the publishing projects.
The world's bamboo societies represent a fourth possible funds source. The
process of planning and executing an integrated plan for such a project is
one also involving relatively sophisticated skills. With volunteers carrying
such projects the risk is getting exactly what is paid for. An approach
looking for the best of all possiblities will craft a significant mix of
volunteers, enthusiasts, professionals and, fundings.

While there is a large role for volunteer participation in research and, to a
degree, data gathering; I suspect that the scope of the project (at least as
I would visualize it and urge) will demand some very strong professional
participation in design of data organization and information collection as
well as the actual database development involved in a project with staggering
amounts of widely scattered information most likely in incompatible formats
as well as languages. 

When the relevant data for the intitial publication spectifications are
finally assembled in some manageable format and availability (which today
demands powerful computer and data storage capacity), then the equally
formidable task of intregrating, selecting, writing and graphic presentation
begins. With that in progress, another parallel process involves the design
and layout of the publications. The pre-press processes are another major
task now largely undertaken with powerful programs and computer-based
graphics capacities as well as capabilities. This kind of existing
capabilities for such tasks is seen, in the US, with Time-Life Books,
Smithsonian Books, Sierra Club Books and numerous others who have staff and
technology in-being or strong contractors with the equipment, staff and
experience. Major academic-based presses also possess the relevent skill
bases to manage such a project.

If my recent Philippine experience is any guide, had I depended entirely on
the conventional in-country sources primarily from academic and scientific
institutions, I would have missed a great deal as well as learning a great
deal. I believe it is immensely important to understand the cultural and
societal situations, micro-economic contexts and micro-climatic influences
which largely determine the socio-economic actualities of bamboo in a
particular area. One matter which always impresses me is the range of
differences which evolve in island areas compared with continental areas. The
evolution of bamboo in the Philippines is quite different f rom what I saw in
Indonesia. To project to the general from the specific based on one country's
or one geographic region's experience can lead to misleading expectations.
For example, what worked for Joe Caasi in Davao, Mindanao did not work in
Santa Cruz, Laguna, Luzon--not two hundred miles away. And the principles
involved were similar enough that he could successfully recognize the
differences and compensate for them. The learning there, at least for me, is
to understand the principles as including significant room for variation and
difference so that rigidity is avoided in practice. That is, there is no
"right" way to grow or to use bamboo in any particular place or application.
There are many "right" ways and the more we know about more of them, the
better off we are. 

I am suggesting thereby that independent field work can also produce
important data which might otherwise be overlooked. Similar opportunities
were present in Bali where Linda Garland's efforts added dimensions which
might otherwise have been unavailable. I am sorry that my time committments
and funds limitations kept me from extended visits to other Indonesian
islands and areas. From all the scattered information which dribbles in
through participation in conferences, books, magazines and such; I am aware
of myraid research opportunities which would fit into a coordinated set of
bamboo publications aimed at a broadening audience for bamboo information as
well as suggestions and directions for growing and using this wonderful plant
resource.

The openings becoming available through the bamboo families developing from
internet contacts cannot be over-emphasized. These media are, in spite of the
exaggeration, frustrations and learning curves involved, simply magnificent.

In terms of people who might contribute to the committee, I would suggest you
pay appropriate homage to the academics and scientists and, in parallel,
search for people with publishing and marketing skills to carry the balance
when positive votes are needed.

Right now I would hope for some strong visionary leadership to get this
effort going.

Milo Clark

From piedmont  Sat Sep 14 17:25:25 1996
Received: (from piedmont@localhost) by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17092 for london@sunsite.unc.edu; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:25:23 -0400 (EDT)
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From: Milogic@aol.com
Received: by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00280; Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:02:43 -0400
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:02:43 -0400
Message-ID: <960914140241_478659147@emout12.mail.aol.com>
To: RRao@idrc.ca
cc: bamboo@housing.ucsc.edu, rbala@ncatfyv.uark.edu, steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu,
        askpv@ozemail.com.au, permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu,
        susag.permaculture@nf.apc.org,
        ruraldev%ksuvm.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu
Subject: Bamboo publications
Status: O
X-Status: 

Rama,

In response to your inquiry about the proposed bamboo identification manual
which we hope INBAR will spearhead: some tentative thoughts--

A major task for the world bamboo communities is to develop appropriate
infrastructure to support the long processes which will put bamboo more
strongly into local and, perhaps, world resource calculations. As with any
resource, immense work is involved. Look how many years it took to develop
that gooey black ooze into petrochemicals--not that that particular
development process is a meaningful model for bamboo.

The history of the Philippines, common to nearly all nations colonized by
western imperialists, shows almost 500 years during which the pre-existing
norms were ripped out and displaced by the conquering western cultures. Those
processes may now be coming to some logical conclusions thereby opening more
possibilites for past and present locally-based ways to influence a better
future. 

I hope that developing bamboo as a more widely used resource will consist
more of adapting local processes to contemporary local needs than
substitutions within primarily western-oriented or export products for now
depleted other resources such as wood.

It is within this context that the recent First National Conference on Bamboo
in the Philippines acquires added significance in my view. I note that this
conference was an outgrowth of the Bali World Bamboo Congress in 1995. We,
individually and collectively, are building and expanding on the work done by
INBAR and the other bamboo organizations.

The existence of a dynamically expanding set of related format
INBAR-sponsored publications or manuals would be a significant step in the
direction of determining and then actualizing the potential of bamboo as a
contemporary resource. A first effort naturally would be some sort of
identification manual. I would hope that the manual developed will break the
bonds of purely scientific or taxonomic considerations. I would hope that the
listing and depiction of each identified bamboo would also include listing
and depiction of uses and utliizations of that bamboo as they are known and
naming where, the specific areas, within which that use is known.

>From western perspectives, we also have works such as the University of
Stuttgart's IL31 within which considerable detail is available on bamboo
utilizations, albeit primarily archetectural. A volume belongs in the bamboo
set which collects the archetectural and building experiences in Colombia,
Costa Rica, the Philippines, Indonesia, India, China and elsewhere both west
and east where bamboo is being used effectively in today's terms. Another
volume which concentrated on the myriad utilitarian uses of bamboo as tools
and aids to living is sugggested. Still another which focuses on arts and
crafts uses would be appreciated. A fine arts history and appreciation of the
highest artistic and spiritual contexts for bamboo would cap such as set or
series.

Probably optimal publications would incorporate the heart of David Farrelly's
work, the pragmatics of one like "Joe" Caasi of the Philippines and the
academic details of the taxonomists all rolled up into physically tough
handbooks for workshop, laboratory, home and field. A tall order and one
which bamboo fully merits.

As Richard Waters, American Bamboo Society chair on arts and crafts, likes to
point out, "Bamboo is more than just a plant." Of course, one major
difficulty here in the US and to differing degrees elsewhere is availability
of bamboo to use and to utilize. People like Simon Henderson and Daphne Lewis
of Bamboo People in Washington state along with an expanding number of others
who are involved in larger scale growing of bamboo are exemplars moving to
increase supply, to advance practical knowledge and to provide training. The
pragmatic Joe Caasi's of the bamboo world need as much or more coverage than
the more academic approaches. Establishing a regenerating and diverse supply
of bamboos adequate for projected demands is as necessary as understanding
tensile strength and other important technical issues. 

All of the bamboo advancement processes are of the systems nature of
"both/and" and "and/and"; that is, complementary, inclusive and open. We are
all parts of the global system expanding feedback loops and thereby
participating in important aspects of rebalancing the planet. Bamboo is a
prime example of the negentropic or anti-entropic qualities available in
nature. Working to understand, to expand and to actualize those natural
qualities is a challenge worthy of poet and pragmatist.

The pragmatics of a publication challenge such as a manual or set of manuals
focusing on 1) identification/taxonomy; 2) pragmatics of growing bamboo and
3) uses and utilizations of bamboo are immensely complex. For example,
Richard Waters is advocating expanding the ABS Source List to include
suitable uses for each particular bamboo and then to add in the sources
section the names of people and companies who are using them or have cut
culms or pieces of that particular bamboo for sale. I hear rumors and get
snatches of tantilizing information about bamboo efforts in Australia and
other countries which merit some kind of followup beyond my resources. To
have references related to supplies of particular bamboos being developed for
particular uses in distant places would be a significant inclusion for a
basic manual.

To begin dealing with the pragmatics, I would advocate designing a strategy
for the publishing program in terms of end-users. Part of that strategic
design is identifying audiences both apparent and peripheral to the stated
purposes of the publications--which I would see ever expanding in scope
myself. The collected database would then have multiple uses and spread the
expenses across more publications. The entire effort would necessarily be
seen as on-going with expansions, new editions and widening audience
possibilities all focusing on bamboo as more than just a plant.

The narrower the enduser definitions, the narrower the possibilities for
securing financial as well as other participation. For example, given the
popularity of David Farrelly's book, now in second printing, a broader based
strategic concept or vision, if you will, involving a set of publications on
bamboo may be more likely to attract a publisher's advance funding. Another
possibility is to attract other forms of advances in terms of 1) equity
participation in a for-profit publishing venture to which INBAR and others
involved would be contractors, 2) grant funding from private or NGO
organizations or 3) governmental participation in the publishing projects.
The world's bamboo societies represent a fourth possible funds source. The
process of planning and executing an integrated plan for such a project is
one also involving relatively sophisticated skills. With volunteers carrying
such projects the risk is getting exactly what is paid for. An approach
looking for the best of all possiblities will craft a significant mix of
volunteers, enthusiasts, professionals and, fundings.

While there is a large role for volunteer participation in research and, to a
degree, data gathering; I suspect that the scope of the project (at least as
I would visualize it and urge) will demand some very strong professional
participation in design of data organization and information collection as
well as the actual database development involved in a project with staggering
amounts of widely scattered information most likely in incompatible formats
as well as languages. 

When the relevant data for the intitial publication spectifications are
finally assembled in some manageable format and availability (which today
demands powerful computer and data storage capacity), then the equally
formidable task of intregrating, selecting, writing and graphic presentation
begins. With that in progress, another parallel process involves the design
and layout of the publications. The pre-press processes are another major
task now largely undertaken with powerful programs and computer-based
graphics capacities as well as capabilities. This kind of existing
capabilities for such tasks is seen, in the US, with Time-Life Books,
Smithsonian Books, Sierra Club Books and numerous others who have staff and
technology in-being or strong contractors with the equipment, staff and
experience. Major academic-based presses also possess the relevent skill
bases to manage such a project.

If my recent Philippine experience is any guide, had I depended entirely on
the conventional in-country sources primarily from academic and scientific
institutions, I would have missed a great deal as well as learning a great
deal. I believe it is immensely important to understand the cultural and
societal situations, micro-economic contexts and micro-climatic influences
which largely determine the socio-economic actualities of bamboo in a
particular area. One matter which always impresses me is the range of
differences which evolve in island areas compared with continental areas. The
evolution of bamboo in the Philippines is quite different f rom what I saw in
Indonesia. To project to the general from the specific based on one country's
or one geographic region's experience can lead to misleading expectations.
For example, what worked for Joe Caasi in Davao, Mindanao did not work in
Santa Cruz, Laguna, Luzon--not two hundred miles away. And the principles
involved were similar enough that he could successfully recognize the
differences and compensate for them. The learning there, at least for me, is
to understand the principles as including significant room for variation and
difference so that rigidity is avoided in practice. That is, there is no
"right" way to grow or to use bamboo in any particular place or application.
There are many "right" ways and the more we know about more of them, the
better off we are. 

I am suggesting thereby that independent field work can also produce
important data which might otherwise be overlooked. Similar opportunities
were present in Bali where Linda Garland's efforts added dimensions which
might otherwise have been unavailable. I am sorry that my time committments
and funds limitations kept me from extended visits to other Indonesian
islands and areas. From all the scattered information which dribbles in
through participation in conferences, books, magazines and such; I am aware
of myraid research opportunities which would fit into a coordinated set of
bamboo publications aimed at a broadening audience for bamboo information as
well as suggestions and directions for growing and using this wonderful plant
resource.

The openings becoming available through the bamboo families developing from
internet contacts cannot be over-emphasized. These media are, in spite of the
exaggeration, frustrations and learning curves involved, simply magnificent.

In terms of people who might contribute to the committee, I would suggest you
pay appropriate homage to the academics and scientists and, in parallel,
search for people with publishing and marketing skills to carry the balance
when positive votes are needed.

Right now I would hope for some strong visionary leadership to get this
effort going.

Milo Clark

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Sun Sep 15 12:54:12 1996
Received: from amani.ces.ncsu.edu (amani.ces.ncsu.edu [152.1.45.51]) by calzone.oit.unc.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA18386; Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:54:12 -0400 (EDT)
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lawrence London - Personal Account <london@mercury.interpath.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: 161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_ (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960915103140.27673A-100000@mercury.interpath.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 01:06:30 +0700
From: william thornton <wjta@hooked.net>
To: london@mercury.interpath.com
Subject: Re: 161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_

>Exactly, as the last poster points out, Fukuoka does not
>want farmers from dawn to dusk, slaving away, quite the
>opposite.
>In fact, Fukuoka
>and his system is similar to Permaculture.

I remember how offensive I first found Fukuoka when I first encountered his
ideas.  It went against everything I had learned and seemed very arrogant.
He seemed to be giving up and seemed completely unrealistic.  After ten
years of wasting my energy fighting nature, I find his ideas much more
palatable.  Now, how can I get a copy of his book?  More to the point,
where can I visit rice farms using his methods?  Does anyone know the
whereabouts of the organic rice farm of Khun Boonchand of Northeast
Thailand, referred to in the magazine "Turning Wheel" of the Buddhist Peace
Fellowship?  Khun Boonchand apparently had some success converting a whole
village to Fukokoka's methods of farming, but has apparently gone off to
Italy with an Italian wife.  How far are the Lundgren brothers in Northern
California from the "one-straw revolution?" I tend to be in the San
Francisco Bay Area or Thailand, but could easily stop over in Hawaii or
(more expensively, I suppose) Japan.

Is Fukuoka alive and receiving visitors? From the tone of his writing I
imagined him like the Taoist sages that hurled rocks at visitors to
preserve their solitude.  I guess this ties into the Privacy, Peace, and
Permaculture issue that I confess I did not see the relevance of until just
now!  Perhaps I've missed learning the protocols required to keep one's
teeth in one's head when visiting permaculture demonstration sites?  The
old Hindu sages were always approached with branches of wood in hand,
ostensibly to offer on the altar fire, but possibly also useful to fend off
projectiles hurled by the irritated rishis!  Perhaps nowadays, sheets of
cardboard might be a more ecologically correct offering and defense!  A
little awkward to carry in a high wind, however!

Regards,  William Thornton (wjta@mail.hooked.net)











From piedmont  Sun Sep 15 12:54:17 1996
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Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:32:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Lawrence London - Personal Account <london@mercury.interpath.com>
To: permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: 161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_ (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.93.960915103140.27673A-100000@mercury.interpath.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: O
X-Status: 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 01:06:30 +0700
From: william thornton <wjta@hooked.net>
To: london@mercury.interpath.com
Subject: Re: 161_Masanuba_Fukoukas_Natural_

>Exactly, as the last poster points out, Fukuoka does not
>want farmers from dawn to dusk, slaving away, quite the
>opposite.
>In fact, Fukuoka
>and his system is similar to Permaculture.

I remember how offensive I first found Fukuoka when I first encountered his
ideas.  It went against everything I had learned and seemed very arrogant.
He seemed to be giving up and seemed completely unrealistic.  After ten
years of wasting my energy fighting nature, I find his ideas much more
palatable.  Now, how can I get a copy of his book?  More to the point,
where can I visit rice farms using his methods?  Does anyone know the
whereabouts of the organic rice farm of Khun Boonchand of Northeast
Thailand, referred to in the magazine "Turning Wheel" of the Buddhist Peace
Fellowship?  Khun Boonchand apparently had some success converting a whole
village to Fukokoka's methods of farming, but has apparently gone off to
Italy with an Italian wife.  How far are the Lundgren brothers in Northern
California from the "one-straw revolution?" I tend to be in the San
Francisco Bay Area or Thailand, but could easily stop over in Hawaii or
(more expensively, I suppose) Japan.

Is Fukuoka alive and receiving visitors? From the tone of his writing I
imagined him like the Taoist sages that hurled rocks at visitors to
preserve their solitude.  I guess this ties into the Privacy, Peace, and
Permaculture issue that I confess I did not see the relevance of until just
now!  Perhaps I've missed learning the protocols required to keep one's
teeth in one's head when visiting permaculture demonstration sites?  The
old Hindu sages were always approached with branches of wood in hand,
ostensibly to offer on the altar fire, but possibly also useful to fend off
projectiles hurled by the irritated rishis!  Perhaps nowadays, sheets of
cardboard might be a more ecologically correct offering and defense!  A
little awkward to carry in a high wind, however!

Regards,  William Thornton (wjta@mail.hooked.net)











From askpv@ozemail.com.au  Mon Sep 16 09:45:51 1996
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From: April Sampson-Kelly <askpv@ozemail.com.au>
To: "'Lawrence F. London, Jr.'" <london@sunsite.unc.edu>,
        "'Permacultire Mailing List'" <permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:30:14 +-1000
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It getting late in the morning - 
that's a joke
I will really need to study this server stuff when Its not
so hot in the office-
the office is pretty solar senstive - only Australia doesn't 
run on a strict 4 seasons timetable this is the month 
when the european species start getting warmed up
and concentrate on flowers not shading the office.
It is also the month of winds and mood swings in the population
I think- no not me, never
I am off to Perth - driving - it is 4000 ks - quite a haul.
but I need to get away, I need quiet. 
I need the expansive desolate desert
Sounds like you've got a good plan - hope it doesn't
cost anymore as we pay by the minute to access the mailing list
and only sometimes surf the net.
I don't know if I handled the abuse well - maybe next time
I should ask the mailing list what they want in a discussion
and maybe I should only offer a summary of the letters that I recieved 
but I thought that to have an ongoing input the concepts should be 
thrashed out over time.  
I can handle bottom-feeders - we need a respect for diversity
and we would be nothing without those micro-organisms, don't
you reckon?
April

----------
From: 	Lawrence F. London, Jr.[SMTP:london@sunsite.unc.edu]
Sent: 	Saturday, 14 September 1996 8:57
To: 	permaculture-mg@amani.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: 	Re: Privacy, Peace and Permaculture Promotion

:
Lawrence F. London, Jr., Venaura Farm, Chapel Hill, NC USA 
mailto:london@sunSITE.unc.edu - http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden
mailto:permaculture@sunsite.unc.edu - 
http://sunSITE.unc.edu/london/permaculture.html 
:
On Tue, 27 Aug 1996, April Sampson-Kelly wrote:

> On the whole, I have been really heartened by the depth of 
> understanding by most of the respondents
> to my search for others with experience of loss of 
> peace in the field of permaculture promotion
> [Obviously some people have not yet understood that
> permaculture is about culture and not a series of gardening
> tips - this resulted in some rude messages about my filling
> cyberspace with personal dilema's!!!  They have threatened to
> leave the mailing list - what luck.]

Years ago I had this mailing list, permaculture-mg, started by
the good folks at North Carolina Cooperative Extension at NCSU;
It was my intenion and hope that permies around the globe would use it
any way they saw fit and felt comfortable with. I see that you have.
Carry On!
Those who have a problem with that can unsubscribe or start their own 
list or newsgroup.

BTW, I plan to start a permaculture newsgroup soon. It won't be in the 
Usenet mainstream or an alt. group; it will be offered by a 
standalone, publically-accessable nntp news server, offering only a few 
newsgroups, to be set up here at sunSITE in the near future. 
You will be able to access it from my permaculture homepage (the URL for
that newsgroup will force your news reader to access our server) or simply
point your news reader software to our server & pick it up there.
I'm open to suggestions for other pc-related newsgroups I can form here.
Having our own server for a pc newsgroup makes it difficult for spammers 
and other bottom-feeding organisms to find it.  



From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep 16 12:16:36 1996
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From: John CROFT <JOCR@dct.wa.gov.au>
To: manuel@stat.Berkeley.EDU, robgil@yesyou.u-net.com
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Re: interLETS exchange
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 Rob Squires wrote:

>>2)Create a new unit of currency which is neither equivalent to the
>> pound, USdollar, AUS dollar or any other.  I am not sure how such a
>> currency could be arrived at.
>>
>>Any input ?
>>
>>Rob.

To which larens imanyuel wrote

> A practical way to create a new unit of account is to specify
>an exchange rate on a particular day and the rules by which prices
> or exchange rates will change after that day.
>
> For Alta California Ecological Money Units (emus)
> the exchange rate was set at 1 emu = 1 troy oz. silver (= $4.80 U.S.)
> on 1 January, 1995.  This made a connection to the historical
> common law precious metal unit (troy oz. silver), corresponded
> roughly to the minimum payment for one hour of labor in the
> industrialized areas of the world on that day, and serendipitously
> had a conveniently round number for the initial exchange rate
> with the U.S. dollar. [8 cents U.S. = 1 minute labor (minimum payment)]

There is a problem here and that is that we are again anchoring the
measure of value (i.e. money) against a specific commodity (i.e. silver). 
The amount of silver available, and the price it gets on the market, will
determine the value of that money.

But silver is a "non-renewable resource" and to tie ecologically
renewable resources (eg. human labour) to the value of a
non-renewable resource is ecologically questionable.

> The rules of change are (roughly) that the average earnings of labor
> (seasonally adjusted) in industrialized areas should remain constant
> when specified in emus.  This labor-based evaluation means that
> the long-term prices of tangible commodities will constantly decrease 
> because of technological advances (including gold and silver).

"Technological advances" to date have only shown a decrease because
the value of fossil fuels (another non-renewable resource) is
consistently undervalued.  When we use "energy units/per quantity of
material extracted" many of the values that seem a technological
advance, in fact seem to be energetically a move in the wrong direction 
(eg. To extract 1 barrel of oil used to take on average the energy
consumption of 0.2 barrel to extract.  Now in many places it takes more
than 0.8 barrel, and will get worse as depletion of fields gets closer).

> Labor-basing allows the practical use of antiusury principles
> specifying zero interest within strongly bound communities.

Perhaps, but not always (debt slavery systems historically were
sometimes based on labour basing systems, in which "interest"
payments resulted in debtors selling themselves or their families into
bonded labour.)

> Because the most readily available figures are for labor costs to
> corporations rather than payments to laborers, making calculations
> a little difficult, and inflation has been relatively low recently,
> the practical exchange rate against the U.S. dollar has tended
> to stick at 1 emu = $5 U.S.
>
> To have a really rapidly adjusting unit would require creating
> a banking institution that would have the resources to do
> the statistical analysis frequently and to adjust a set of prices
> of standard commodities for which the emus could immediately
> be exchanged.  If 10% of the value of the units were backed
> by warehouse receipts for these tangible commodities and 
> the other 90% by a lawful obligation to pay from future production,
> these units would be more secure than the common international
> fiat currencies.

Warehouse receipts may work, but what about production trends that
are shifting off conventional systems to "just-in-time" production
processes not needing large warehouse inventories?  And what about
the decline in world food stocks reported by Worldwatch Institute?

Obligation to pay from future production assumes future production value
is going to be equal to or greater than the value of present production. 
While this has been historically true, it may not be true for the medium to
long-term future.  If we are to move to a steady state economy, then we
will come to a stage where expansion is impossible.  If it is true, as
Donella Meadows et al suggest in "Beyond the Limits", that in significant
resources we have crossed the threshold from living on our
bioshpherical income (what is infinitely renewable), and have started
consuming our biospherical capital, then an obligation to pay from future
production will be a recipe for long-term slavery.  Already it has been
estimated that human beings are consuming living resources at a rate of
40% the full photosynthetic potential of the planet.  With population
increasing 100 million yearly, and a revolution in rising living standards
underway in South and East Asia, any bets on how soon we hit 100%? 
What then?

What we need, I feel, to help us guide our way out of the morass that
this suggests, is the creation of grass-roots, local environmentally
responsive currencies, as we find with LETSystems.  International
trading can then grow from the "bottom up" as it should, rather than be
imposed by fiat from the top down.  Lord Maynard Keynes suggested
something similar at Bretton Woods, but his proposal was ignored
because US was the overall economic winner of World War II and Foster
Dulles (and others) were keen to see the US$ emerge as a de-facto
international currency.

Hope this helps the discussion

John Croft

From piedmont  Mon Sep 16 12:16:49 1996
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Re: interLETS exchange
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 Rob Squires wrote:

>>2)Create a new unit of currency which is neither equivalent to the
>> pound, USdollar, AUS dollar or any other.  I am not sure how such a
>> currency could be arrived at.
>>
>>Any input ?
>>
>>Rob.

To which larens imanyuel wrote

> A practical way to create a new unit of account is to specify
>an exchange rate on a particular day and the rules by which prices
> or exchange rates will change after that day.
>
> For Alta California Ecological Money Units (emus)
> the exchange rate was set at 1 emu = 1 troy oz. silver (= $4.80 U.S.)
> on 1 January, 1995.  This made a connection to the historical
> common law precious metal unit (troy oz. silver), corresponded
> roughly to the minimum payment for one hour of labor in the
> industrialized areas of the world on that day, and serendipitously
> had a conveniently round number for the initial exchange rate
> with the U.S. dollar. [8 cents U.S. = 1 minute labor (minimum payment)]

There is a problem here and that is that we are again anchoring the
measure of value (i.e. money) against a specific commodity (i.e. silver). 
The amount of silver available, and the price it gets on the market, will
determine the value of that money.

But silver is a "non-renewable resource" and to tie ecologically
renewable resources (eg. human labour) to the value of a
non-renewable resource is ecologically questionable.

> The rules of change are (roughly) that the average earnings of labor
> (seasonally adjusted) in industrialized areas should remain constant
> when specified in emus.  This labor-based evaluation means that
> the long-term prices of tangible commodities will constantly decrease 
> because of technological advances (including gold and silver).

"Technological advances" to date have only shown a decrease because
the value of fossil fuels (another non-renewable resource) is
consistently undervalued.  When we use "energy units/per quantity of
material extracted" many of the values that seem a technological
advance, in fact seem to be energetically a move in the wrong direction 
(eg. To extract 1 barrel of oil used to take on average the energy
consumption of 0.2 barrel to extract.  Now in many places it takes more
than 0.8 barrel, and will get worse as depletion of fields gets closer).

> Labor-basing allows the practical use of antiusury principles
> specifying zero interest within strongly bound communities.

Perhaps, but not always (debt slavery systems historically were
sometimes based on labour basing systems, in which "interest"
payments resulted in debtors selling themselves or their families into
bonded labour.)

> Because the most readily available figures are for labor costs to
> corporations rather than payments to laborers, making calculations
> a little difficult, and inflation has been relatively low recently,
> the practical exchange rate against the U.S. dollar has tended
> to stick at 1 emu = $5 U.S.
>
> To have a really rapidly adjusting unit would require creating
> a banking institution that would have the resources to do
> the statistical analysis frequently and to adjust a set of prices
> of standard commodities for which the emus could immediately
> be exchanged.  If 10% of the value of the units were backed
> by warehouse receipts for these tangible commodities and 
> the other 90% by a lawful obligation to pay from future production,
> these units would be more secure than the common international
> fiat currencies.

Warehouse receipts may work, but what about production trends that
are shifting off conventional systems to "just-in-time" production
processes not needing large warehouse inventories?  And what about
the decline in world food stocks reported by Worldwatch Institute?

Obligation to pay from future production assumes future production value
is going to be equal to or greater than the value of present production. 
While this has been historically true, it may not be true for the medium to
long-term future.  If we are to move to a steady state economy, then we
will come to a stage where expansion is impossible.  If it is true, as
Donella Meadows et al suggest in "Beyond the Limits", that in significant
resources we have crossed the threshold from living on our
bioshpherical income (what is infinitely renewable), and have started
consuming our biospherical capital, then an obligation to pay from future
production will be a recipe for long-term slavery.  Already it has been
estimated that human beings are consuming living resources at a rate of
40% the full photosynthetic potential of the planet.  With population
increasing 100 million yearly, and a revolution in rising living standards
underway in South and East Asia, any bets on how soon we hit 100%? 
What then?

What we need, I feel, to help us guide our way out of the morass that
this suggests, is the creation of grass-roots, local environmentally
responsive currencies, as we find with LETSystems.  International
trading can then grow from the "bottom up" as it should, rather than be
imposed by fiat from the top down.  Lord Maynard Keynes suggested
something similar at Bretton Woods, but his proposal was ignored
because US was the overall economic winner of World War II and Foster
Dulles (and others) were keen to see the US$ emerge as a de-facto
international currency.

Hope this helps the discussion

John Croft

From almanac-request@amani.ces.ncsu.edu  Mon Sep 16 12:17:07 1996
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